My name's Jacob and welcome. Thank you, thank you very much for clicking on this video. And I welcome you into my house, into my home, and into my life. I don't particularly know what I'm gonna call this series, but what I do know is that I need something like this to keep my motivation high, keep it flowing. It's pretty high at the moment, but I know that if I'm gonna be sharing stuff with the world, and with YouTube, and with my subscribers, that it's gonna make it all the more better when things do work out. So yeah, thank you again. I've tried series before, my channel is fitness related, but I've got more to offer, man. I have more to offer. I have more things up in here that I wanna tell you guys than just fitness related stuff, all right? So, if you're new to the channel and you're not one of my previous subscribers, then welcome. My name's Jacob McDonald, and I'm living in Alice Springs in Central Australia right now. I'm from New Zealand. I've been in Australia for six years now.  I came over here at the age of 19 with absolutely nothing.  I'd sold a car that I had a debt on to a friend, and I'll tell you what, never mix business and friends together. Don't do it. Long story short, he never paid me. I came over here with debt up to my eyeballs at age 19. I'd started a university degree, which I dropped out of, which in hindsight was the best thing I ever did because I knew in those first three months that university was not gonna be for me. I was a straight A student at school, but man, a university degree was not gonna get me to the place that I needed to get. So I've always had this inkling in my head that I would be successful.  So as far as my physique goes, I put those principles into action with that early on, and I've been consistently training. My diet's been on point for probably the last three to four years, and I've made some good gains, completely natural, and I'm proud of it. But I don't go and enter that half-natty, full-natty, fake-natty debate anymore because it's not worth it. If I really wanted some views on YouTube, I'd start calling people out saying they're fake-natty. But at the end of the day, guys, I'm a believer, man. I am a believer.    So how can you guys say that someone is not natural? When there's genetic freaks out there, it's just the way it is, guys. It's just the way it is. Now, I am certainly not genetically blessed, but I've worked with what I've got and I've built the physique I have. Now, I'm not gonna show you that right now, but in the future and future videos, I certainly will, because I don't know where this series is gonna end up, but I do know that I have some clear fitness, financial and freedom-related goals that I will be pursuing over the next few months, and I'm gonna bring you guys along with me. Now, this is not vanity. This is not trying to Skype. I firmly believe that I've got more to offer YouTube and I've got more to offer this channel and my subscribers, and we're all gonna make it, guys.  So I'm sitting here in my own house. I bought it. I bought it last year at the age of 25. I bought my first house at the age of 25. Now, personally, it seems to me that people around my age, you know, my circle of friends, peers at work, even people older than me, they can't seem to grasp the notion of looking 5, 10, 15, even 20 years in advance as far as investments go, as far as your career path, as far as planning, because without planning, things just don't happen like that. I mean, to set up a multimillion dollar property portfolio, which is my goal, that's my financial goal, is to set up a financially free and independent life where I have a passive income from a property portfolio. So then when I reach a certain amount of passive income, I can quit my job, I can effectively retire and spend quality time with my family, my friends, my kids, and everything that comes in the future, because there's one thing that I don't wanna do, to a future wife or a future family, and that is bring them into a world where you worry about money all the time, you know, even my parents, they instill some really, really good values, really, really good financial values in me, but of course, as with a lot of sort of people from that generation, there wasn't much emphasis on, you know, it's a mediocre feel, it's a mediocre feel.  One person that has inspired me, and he would probably be like my version of Ziz, is Greg Plitt. Now, if you guys don't know who Greg Plitt is, I would recommend looking up some of his videos, some of his motivational videos. I competed in the IFBB and in the WBFF as a men's physique athlete and a fitness model competitor last year.   I actually only found out about him just after he died. Well, actually, no, I knew about him, but I never really listened to his stuff until I found out that he passed away. And then I started listening to his stuff and it really, really struck a chord with me. So that was awesome. It's really inspired me. So, all right. This is the opening video. Okay, there's two things, there's two specific things that are gonna be happening within the next two months that I want to bring you guys along with the ride for, and I want to motivate myself through making this video, et cetera, et cetera.  I'm gonna get in the best shape of my life. I've said it many, many times before, even when I competed, I probably had no business being up there because I was not lean enough. I wasn't. I remember seeing this guy beside me, he said to, like, I was backstage by myself, this guy was covered up the entire time. Oh, I started pumping up. And he said to his coach, he'd been pumping up. He said to his coach, you think I'm ready, coach? Should I take the top off? And the coach is like, well, do you feel ready? And he's like, yeah. And I was like, okay, this is a bit serious. You know, what's he gonna look like?  I looked at him, I said, yeah, you're ready. It was absolutely insane. I've never seen physiques like that in person in my entire life. And so from that day, I thought, well, there's no business me being back here competing again unless I look something like that. So I do wanna compete again. I know that being a natural athlete, you're not gonna get the best gains possible unless you really give yourself a good year, two years, even more in a calorie surplus. But the will and the thing in the back of my head is just too strong. I can't, I can't bulk. I have to shred again. I have to do it. And I'm gonna bring you guys along for the ride. I'm keen to crack into cardio. I'm keen to be dieting. You know, I'm not keen to be eating a shitload at the moment. It's hot here in Alice Springs. So I think the time's come. It's March 14th, 2016. Monday, March 14th, 2016. And what I'm gonna do right now is I'm gonna head to the gym. We're gonna smash out the workout. The way I train, I go in there by feel. I always have, I don't have a specific diary. I wish I did. I wish I did have a diary that had all my sets, all my reps, everything so I could look back at it. But basically, I'm not that kind of guy. As far as dieting goes, I'm a flexible dieter. I will have sugar in my diet. I will have carbs in my diet. I will have fats in my diet. But insane that I stick to the sort of if it's a macros principle that probably 70% of my food is from clean, whole food sources, nothing processed.   So my dieting principles, my training principles have always been like that. I'm not the kind of guy that's gonna be really, really strict. But I do know what is necessary to lose body fat. And maintain muscle. And that's my goal over the next few months. So I guess that's it. Now, financial goals are a different kettle of fish completely and I have something really, really exciting that's happening in my life financially, like financial wise. And I'm just in the process of negotiating at the moment and yeah, I won't say too much else but it's very exciting for me because obviously I have that vision of retiring probably by age 40 if possible. And this is gonna be the first step on my road to retiring at 40. So yeah, you guys come along to the right. Who knows, man, who knows?  But we'll see what happens, we'll see what happens because I wanna help as many people as possible in as many ways as possible. So that's my vision and that's what I wanna do.   All right, so I hope I haven't bored you guys off. I hope you're excited. I hope I can continue these going. I mean, I'm pretty bad with starting series. I'm always starting them. And feeling like people aren't liking what I'm putting out. I'm not getting too many views, not getting too many likes and then I'll stop. But this one I'm determined and I'm actually not gonna release them for a few weeks. So this episode will not be coming out today on the 14th of March. It'll probably be coming out in about a month's time. And then hopefully I'll have the ball rolling by then and we'll continue rolling out these episodes and hopefully you can continue enjoying them. And yeah, it's gonna be a little bit different because I'm gonna be a month behind but I wanna make these episodes cool. I wanna make them informative.  And I don't in the end. And I'm glad I haven't because I'm here now and we're about to embark on a cool journey. So thank you again. Thank you very much for watching. Like, subscribe, share, do whatever you wanna do but I will be hitting the gym in about half an hour and I'm actually gonna get a bit of footage. I'm gonna make up a pre-workout and then we will be off and we'll see how I'm looking in the gym and some good lighting and that will be a starting point for my physique at least. So once again, thanks for watching. I'll catch you in the next one.


Why the narcissist wants you back? The narcissist will say and do some of the most hurtful things to you But then they will come back like nothing happened As though nothing was said They will just come back to you often without an apology Often without you mentioning anything they said or did to you and they will expect you to just forget about it They will expect you to welcome them back with open arms Why do they do this? Why do they devalue and discard us and then want to come back? The reason why the narcissist wants you back is because they remember that you are a good source of supply They remember that you are susceptible to them in a relation You let them get away with everything and they know that if they come back to you Things are likely to go back to how they used to be They will be able to gain influence and authority over you They will be able to get you to do what they want And that's a deciding factor in whether or not the narcissist will want you back They're not going to come back to someone who doesn't validate their false self and the illusion that they are trying to portray They're not going to come back to someone who isn't susceptible to them in a relation Because if you see through them, and you know what they're about There's a good chance that you will reject them and the narcissist is not going to put themselves in a position Where they might be humiliated They would rather keep their false sense of pride and arrogance And try their game with someone else Someone who lacks experience wisdom and judgment Someone who doesn't know what they're really about Rather than wasting their time and energy going back to someone who is probably just going to reject them Someone who is never going to take them seriously That's not good supply for a narcissist They need you to take them seriously They need you to believe in everything that's playing to you There are some situations where the narcissist will come back Even if they think you've moved on They see it as a challenge to get you back To get your interest again But once they've managed to get your attention They lose interest in you Because the challenge is over The narcissist is most interested in someone when they don't know if that person is interested in them When you display interest to a narcissist You instantly lose value in their eyes Because they see it as though if you were worth anything you wouldn't be interested in them You wouldn't want to be around them Which is why when you let them back in they see it as a whole past to destroy you They see it as though you are beneath them and that you deserve to be mistreated Because they know they're not worth anything That is why anything of value that comes around them. They just see it as something to play with And when they see that you're happy And you've moved on without them It just makes them want to come back and take away your happiness Because your happiness is a reminder of how miserable they are Misery loves company And when they bring you down to their level and make you miserable It comforts them It makes them feel like they're not alone The narcissist will often come back to you And act like they're sorry for what they did They will give you fake apologies, fake epiphanies, false promises, future faking Whatever they think will get you back They can seem so sincere as though they have genuine feelings as though they really care about you As though they're really going to change this time When a narcissist is acquiring their target, they will do whatever it takes They will say and do whatever they think will secure you Whatever they think will get you back But it's not because they love you It's not because they care about you Even though that's what they may tell you They're only giving you all of this attention now Because they're trying to secure you It's a challenge to the narcissist It feeds their ego to know that they can have you back But as soon as you give in Their ego is full They're satisfied They don't need anything more So now they don't have to manage your perception of them They don't have to manage how they come across to you And this is when the mass comes off And they say some of the most hurtful things to you Because they never really cared about you It was just a game to get you back And once they've got you They don't want you anymore Because now they know that they can get you It's not a challenge anymore And once they know that they can get you They don't value you Narcissists don't value anything that they already have Because they see it as though If they have it It can't be that valuable They know they're not deserving of anything great It's only when you walk away that they finally see your value It's only when you reject them That they realize just how great you are And that is why the narcissist cannot stand rejection Because it triggers them to reflect on how they really feel about themselves They're forced to experience these feelings that they would otherwise project onto you So if the narcissist tries to come back to you Just know that they don't really care about you They don't really love you They just see it as a game They just see it as a challenge They're only going to act nice until they get their supply And then you will see who and what they really are The narcissist knows what they really are Their game is to try to make you think there's something else Their game is to try to fool you You have to decide that you're not going to be their fool anymore You're not going to accept the crimes of attention that they are willing to give to you Because they're not going to be everything that you want them to be Even though they would love you to think that they will be They just want to control you They don't want you to be happy They don't want you to have a life that doesn't evolve then They want to be in control But you need to realize that you deserve more Imagine being with someone Who loves and cares for you Just as much as you love and care for the narcissist That's what you deserve Someone who will give you the same as what you're giving to them But you're not going to get that if you keep entertaining these narcissists If you keep allowing them to come back into your life Because you need to take the time to heal You need to make space for someone new to come in You are deserving of so much more The narcissist may have tricked you into thinking That you're not as great as you actually are They do this to control you They do this to stop you from thinking that you deserve more And it keeps you looking at yourself Rather than realizing that they're not about anything They're not bringing anything to the table When you have been around a narcissist long enough You may feel like you're no good You may feel like you're unattractive But the truth is Narcissist target people who are successful and attractive That's what they want It's just that when they come around those people They take everything good about them And it can take time for you to rebuild everything that you once had The narcissist wants you back Because they remember you were a good source of supply They want to control you They don't want to see you being happy They don't want you to have a life without them They're just trying to control you The narcissist is never happy They are not capable of experiencing real happiness Everything they do is just perception management It's an orchestration They know how to plan and coordinate the elements of a situation To reduce the desired effect But really, they're miserable They're so focused on problems and difficulties They make a drama out of everything To the point where they can never be happy They cannot manage or deal with their emotions Because they're emotionally underdeveloped And they don't work on their emotional development Because they have to see it as though there's nothing wrong with them As though they don't need to work in anything And that is why they stay the same for the rest of their lives Nothing ever changes The narcissist just goes around projecting their insecurities Under someone else Shifting the blame onto them Never dealing with their own issues or problems And that is why when they leave They will often enforce flying monkeys And start a smear campaign against you If you want to know how they're going to treat you After the discard Just remember what they told you about their ex When the narcissist is loved by when a new source They will almost always bring up something about their ex They will say that they were crazy Or they did something to them Whatever they said Is most likely what they're going to be saying about you When it's finally over They never grow or develop They just point the finger at someone else And that is why they're underdeveloped And that is why they're emotionally underdeveloped That is why they have difficulty regulating their emotions That is why they get so worked up And exaggerate the importance of minor problems or incidents Because they've never taken accountability For anything in their lives They've never given themselves the opportunity To develop emotionally Which is why they remain at the emotional state of a child Which is why they're so immature They show an emotional development Appropriate to someone of a much younger age So when the narcissist wants you back It's not because they want to make things right It's not because they care about you They just want supply They just want to control you They don't like it that you're happy They don't like to see you live in your life without them And they're probably bored of whoever else they were dealing with And that's why they want to come back It's not because they love or care for you Their main objective is to prop up their false self To sustain their belief in their false self And the only reason they come around you Is because you help them to do that They come around you again Because they want you to keep doing that To keep the fantasy alive And when you leave They're just going to find someone else to do it They're just going to find someone else To validate their false reality But even then That person is just a mirror They're just reflecting something back To the narcissist The narcissist just lives in their own world With a population of one Thank you for watching I hope this video has an interview Please like, comment, share and subscribe Click the bell icon to receive notifications For my future videos Check out the new Narc Survival website At www.narcsurvival.uk Where you can read my blog posts About coaching sessions And join a support forum If you were elected tonight My PayPal link is in the video description Coaching inquiries You can email me at coachingatnarcsurvival.uk Thank you for watching and I'll talk to you soon


I think this is kind of combined looking at two angles. One is the understanding that we need to concentrate not just on saving these patients that are relapsing and relapsing after a long time, but also for these newly diagnosed patients if we concentrate our power, giving them a very effective treatment. Again, talking about dartumab and now another trial with isotuximab which is another new anti-CD38 antibody. So combining them with the standard of care, bortesumib, Revlimid, and dexamethasone VRD treatment, combining these four drugs together gets excellent results. We have a long time, we have the isotuximab showing very nice results in terms of minimal residual disease. So most patients over 50% of patients will achieve minimal residual disease a long time with the combination. And same goes with dartumab now in two years of follow-up of the Griffin trial where we've seen extremely deep responses already and now they're only deepening a long time as you give dartumab and linoleumid maintenance a long time. So patients will have more and more deep responses which will translate into very long progression-free survival meaning that the disease will not come back in many years in these patients. So this is very important in first leg. In advanced line, I think we're going over really a revolution in way we've seen the long-term results of the CAR T-cell trial. So we have the cartitude and the bluebird trials which are showing very prolonged duration of responses for patients. And most patients, I mean, in one trial over 70% with very advanced patients over six lines or seven lines of treatment and with both technologies where you take the T-cells and you re-educate against BCMA to target these very resistant plasma cells, even these very heavily predicted patients achieve very deep responses. And the nice thing about it is it seems that they're becoming very prolonged responses. And to that we add the newly bi-specific antibodies. So there are multiple trials now ongoing showing prolonged responses and very deep responses with these antibodies. They mimic the CAR T in a way. So one side of the antibody will bind the immune system and the other side will bind plasma cells and they bring the immune system with the plasma cells. So together this will cause the immune system to destroy the plasma cells. And again, we see very high response rate. And now after a year or two years of follow-up many patients stay in remission. And this is very amazing for very advanced patients. And to that we had other antibodies like Bellantoma which there are trials showing a way to make it better and maybe new image that are coming now. There is a, it's called cell modes. It's not ever called any more image. It's the next generation pomalidomide called the beridomide showing very nice responses. So in a way the future of myeloma in the next few years is going to be very bright. Things are changing, responses are better side effects are less. I think there's a very good perspective. Atash, we had two major talks about ALMA-loidosis. The one is the follow-up of the Andromeda clinical trial. The Andromeda clinical trials trial where newly diagnosed patients were randomized to receive either the standard of care treatment which is Bortesomy, cyclophosphamide and dexamethasone which most patients will know and recognizes the regimen that most patients receive to the same regimen plus the addition of dartumumab which is a new drug. Actually by now it's been going for a while and it's given as a subcutaneous fixed dose and to see both the safety and efficacy of the addition of dartumumab is first line dartumus in antibody which targets the plasma cells. So the whole regimen idea is to lower the amount of secreted amyloidogenic light chains as fast as possible and as deep as possible in order to regain organ function. So the main idea was to get to the hematologic response which is complete response. This is what we really want with the patients in order to achieve these goals of either better survival benefits and saving their organs which are damaged by these amyloidogenic light chains which are secreted by the plasma cells. So what we can see what we already know and have seen in the initial results of the atromeda trial, what the patients receiving the dartumab on top of the Bortesomy Velcade cyclophosphamide dexamethasone treatment managed to achieve a much better results in terms of achieving a complete remission. And this did not initially translate into survival benefit in terms because patients who do bad will do bad no matter what they get but most patients did well in both arms. However, those got the dartumumab has achieved maybe three times better results a long time and now after two years of follow-up we can see that these patients who are getting these deep results mostly the patients who are getting dartumab managed to achieve better organ responses meaning that their hearts work better and their kidneys work better even after half a year and much more than that a long time. So over half the patients have recovered their organ functions along two years of follow-up especially when they got the dartumumab. And this has led to assigning now in the United States and close now by in Europe as well the dartumab in first line in conjunction with Bortesomy cyclophosphamide dexamethasone for treatment of AL patients. And this is probably the first regiment that is being registered ever for a LMA-L8 dosis which is very much different from the treatments given up till now which are really taken from the myeloma world. So this is the first abstract which I think is very important to talk about. The other abstract which is also very interesting and has kind of a follow-up over the new antibody to dissolve the amyloidogenic material that accumulates in the organs mostly the heart and the kidney. The antibody is called Kale 101. It is a monoclonal antibody which was manufactured to recognize the kappa or the lambda light chains which are sedimenting in the organs and to remove them from the organs. So this phase one two study managed to give this antibody once every two weeks. And the good thing about it is that patients had very limited side effects. So there weren't too many side effects when the patient got them. Not a lot of patients but these patients who got it had heart involvement and kidney involvement. And the amazing thing about it is that almost all patients or significant amount of them has responded in terms of getting their organs function better. Both cardiac patients and kidney patients where the protein secreted in the urine was lessening a long time. Same goes for heart function as measured by probian P levels which were getting better a long time. So in general there is hope and this monoclonal antibody is now being tested in a very large clinical trial worldwide in newly diagnosed patients again with bortezomib cyclophosphamide dexamethasone or with dartuma bortezomib cyclophosphamide dexamethasone. So these are two very good news for amyloidosis patients. As I was showing, it was approved for a reason because dartuma was shown very nice results especially a long time in these patients making them rendering them with better organ function a long time which is really something that we were missing even in large clinical trials. And the next drug that we hope will come into treatment in amyloidosis patients is certainly the one that I was talking about the Kale-1-1 because this is a hope to target the amyloid from the other side instead of targeting the manufacturing of the amyloidogenic light chains it targets the sediment, the end point result of a amyloidosis, the sedimentation of these light chains in the organs. So when we are talking about a way to prevent amyloid from becoming amyloid and to stop the toxicity of these light chains over the organs now there will be another way to maybe remove it from the organs and a long time both combined together probably will bring much results to these very sick patients. Currently, in most patients we will be using a Bortezumi-based protocol in first line usually combined with chemotherapy patients with amyloid do not unlike myeloma patients do not tolerate very well than Alidomai or Revlimid which is used in many myeloma patients in first line. So most patients will receive this protocol Bortezumi-based, my dexamethasone probably in the near future, there are two mob will be added to it. For relapsing patients, we have other medications we do use the image mostly Revlimid but which is sometimes very difficult to take so many patients will be switched to Promalidomide which is much better tolerated a long time and in the near future, well hopefully we'll see other technologies emerging from myeloma treatment like Belantamab which targets PCMA it's another molecule on the plasma cells over the CD38 that is now being targeted and may show many hopes in myeloma patients probably it will be effective as well for amyloid dosage patients another new molecule which is emerging is Venetoclax most patients with amyloid over 50% of them mostly over 50% of them will harbor translocation in their cells of the chromosomes 11 and 14 and for some reason this fusion protein that becomes of this translocation is very sensitive to a new medication called Venetoclax we have lots of experience with Venetoclax and leukemias chronic and acute leukemias however it is very, very effective in these 11, 14 patients with myeloma and probably with amyloid as well so maybe in the future this will become another very important drug in amyloid dosage treatment.


Tired of the everyday routine? Ever dream of a life of romantic adventure? Want to get away from it all? We offer you... Escape! Escape! Designed to free you from the four walls of today for a half hour of high adventure. Tonight we escape to the prairie west of the Platte River and to the fighting U.S. cavalry of the Old West as James Warner Bella describes it in his exciting tale... Command. Captain Brittle's. Yes, Sergeant? There comes the tenant called back with a patrol. Yes, I see him. Hold the column. Yes, sir. Column! Hand me my field glasses, Sergeant. Here you are, sir. Thank you. Hmm. Captain Brittle's. Well, Mr. Coheal. Here's the best body of grass, sir. This slope with a small run below for water. This is the best bibwack for tonight. Mr. Coheal, you see the rise there to the left behind you across the valley? Yes, sir. What are those shapes lying on that slope? A small herd of buffalo. Sleeping, it seems. We didn't go that far. We turned back when we saw them. The wind has shifted a bit. Take a deep breath, Mr. Coheal. Yes, sir. Smell anything? No, sir. Take another deep breath, Mr. Coheal. Get it into your nostrils.  No, sir. Smells like dead men. And not freshly killed. Lieutenant Gresham in his squad, sir. I imagine so. The men we've come to find. We'll make sure after midnight. Mr. Coheal, there are several fairly obvious differences between the Great Plains and the classroom at West Point. There you can fail and try again. Here you may not have that chance. There, they taught you, I'm sure, that accuracy and observation is a military virtue. I suggest that you cultivate it here. Yes, sir. Sergeant, on the back. Yes, sir. This is the Bivouac, dismount and unsaddle. Night grazing area between the crest of this hill and the creek bottom. Use the picket rope. No individual pins. Yes, sir. Dismount! Dismount! Yes, sir, Captain Brittle's. No, sir, Captain Brittle's. Of all the officers in the United States Cavalry, why did they have to assign me to him? A handbook soldier. Overage in grade. A gray, bitter failure of a soldier. Marking time out here on the plains until he retires. Taking up space in the table of organization. Standing in the way of younger and more aggressive, yes, more capable officers. My father wouldn't be guessing. My father would be over yonder right now to see if those corpses are really Gresham and his men. Father would have made sure of the losing time making camp. The broken rattle Sergeant Utterback had found at noon showed clearly. Sir, that broken rattle the Sergeant found? Yes, Mr. Cooill. When we crossed the trace of that Sioux war party at noon today... That could have been the trail of a Cheyenne war party or Comanches or Apaches. They all make rattles like that from the ends of buffalo toes. But if they were Sioux, they couldn't be more than 30 miles to the north in the deadlands. They're afraid of ambush, so they'd be camping away from timber and near water. The cars rest and we can be at the upper reaches of the river by dawn, sir, ahead of them. Mr. Cooill, I have no orders to be anywhere by dawn or any other time. My orders are to find Mr. Gresham's patrol, having found it returned to Fort Stark and report it. I think I found him. I'll know as soon as the moon rises and I go over and take a look. Water the mountain half an hour, saddle blank is to be left on until they're warded. Remember always, Mr. Cooill, cavalry is a very delicate arm of the service, depending as it does on the health of a dumb beast. Yes, sir. Mr. Cooill, reading minds is an uncomfortable habit, but one I have never been able to lose. Yes, sir. Look at the other side of it, Mr. Cooill. Suppose that war party was Cheyenne, which they might be instead of Sioux. They wouldn't be in the deadlands. Cheyennes would head for timber along the lower Mesa Rocha, so would Arapahos, Keowars, or Comanches. They'd all be of a whack in open timber. And, Mr. Cooill, they all make rattles out of buffalo toes. Yes, sir. Pass the word to Sergeant Attaback that dinner will be at 6.30, but the bugle will not sound called. Yes, sir. And, Mr. Cooill. Sir? There is no shortcut to the top of the glory heap, so we'll not run all over the west tonight looking for one. But if death in battle is a soldier's path to glory, Mr. Gresham and his patrol had found a shortcut. Yet what we looked upon that night on Yonder's slope was not glorious.  They sold their lives dearly. The empty cartridge cases said that. At least they respected them as fighting men. How's that, Sergeant? Every one of them skinned bald-headed so he can cross the Chander waters without trouble. And whoever did it don't want to fight them again. Why? Hands and feet cut off. That's why I had to cripple them in case they meet them in the hereafter. Sergeant? Yes, Captain? Do you still think the Sioux did this? No, sir. Not now, sir. Why not? I made the march from Bents Fort to Santa Fe with Steve Carney. I know an Apache arrow and I see one, sir. Even a thousand miles more than men. Yes, but that Sioux trail we crossed this morning, that war party could have brushed with an Apache war party and come by Apache arrows that way. I don't think so, sir. This job is two days old. It wasn't that Sioux war party. This is Apache work. How do you figure that? Well, mostly because the captain knows it's Apache work, too. Lieutenant Cohill? Sir? Take the grave detail. Yes, sir. Sergeant? Yes, sir. We shall move the company out, attend the night. Yes, sir. We will return to Fort Stark to report this massacre as fast as we can. Yes, sir. So he's showing me. Makes his lieutenant first grave digger and confides his plans to the sergeant in exchange for flattery. He's an old woman in blue fatigues. Can't hide his bad temper.  Instead of striking when he has the advantage, he's going to cut and run. In a stiff action, I'd probably have to shoot him and take over the command. A grave doesn't take long to dig in the soft black earth of the plains. And the rocks were nearby to pile upon the still mounds against the hungry muzzles of coyotes. And after, the air was sweeter in the cold moonlight and the job done in plenty of time for Captain Brittle's scheduled retreat. Command is ready to mount, sir. Very good, sir. Captain Brittle's. Yes, Mr. Cohill. Excuse me, sir, but can't we go after the Indians who did this? Can't we try? Mr. Cohill, the United States Cavalry is now out here to fight Indians. We're here to watch them and report on them for the Indian Bureau. We fight only if they attack us. I'll refer you to the standing orders of the Department of the Platte. They are most explicit on this point. Yes, I know, sir, but Mr. Gresham was attacked. How do you know that? Well, I don't for sure. Of course you don't. But he's dead. And his command dead and mutilated. And we ought to... Or to what? Avenge him? Disabuse yourself of classroom valor, Mr. Cohill. Out here we obey orders. Sergeant. Yes, sir. Pass the word to mount. Yes, sir. I'm Tank. Pass the word. Mount. Pass the word to mount. 30 miles already today. And who knows how many miles ahead of us tonight? The men are tired. The horses are tired. Cavalry is a delicate arm of the service, Captain Brittle's. Hour after hour, as the moon through our lengthening shadows ahead of us. Hour after hour, walk 30 minutes, trot 5 minutes, dismount and lead 10 minutes, unbidden graze 15 minutes every hour, hour after hour. You've got a chore eating the back of Mittendorf? I ain't got much. Well, give me a loan of some, huh? You can get some more at the fort tomorrow. Ah, here. Why don't you ever have any your own? Don't approve a chore on the back. My mod, don't it, is it? Thanks. Godfrey mighty. Gettysburg wasn't like this. Well, do tell. No, sir. We rode up to Gettysburg on the steam cars. Hey, Mittendorf, Sarver's back on Cemetery Ridge again. Fitty, he didn't stay there. The only mistake Robert E. Lee ever made, not to leave Sarver way, found him. Yeah? Just the same, the army was the army in them days. Slept in Tansen, and you got a furlough there was girls, not squaws, girls.  Because I was gold-bricked. That's why I joined up again because they said there'd be fighting out here. Yeah, fighting. Only fighting I seen west of the Missouri is on Saturday nights in the barracks. Yeah, it sure ain't like the old army, I'll tell you that. I remember a girl in Richmond, time when I was with Grant when we took Richmond, prettiest little Virginia creeper he ever did see. She fried me forty-three fish. Sergeant, on her back. Yes, sir. I'd like to ask you a question. Yes, sir. How did you know the captain thought they were apaches that killed Mr. Gresham's detail? I've been his first sergeant for a long time, sir. You get to know him. I see. Do I get to know? Well, sir, there's a different kind of service out here. Like, Sarver up there was saying a minute ago, this ain't Gettysburg, it ain't full-dress war, but it's the only kind the captain and I ever served in, sir. Well, you get to know it just like you get to know siege operations are saber-charged by company front after you've had enough of it. During the war between the states, didn't you? No, sir, neither Captain Brittle's nor I saw service in the states, sir. While the North and the South were fighting each other, the West still had to be held, and, well, somebody had to do it. I see. Yes, I see a lot now. That would explain Captain Brittle's contempt for what he calls heroics. He's jealous. He never had his chance at glory. And if he had, our wagery would have muffed it. In a way, I feel sorry for the old boy. Sitting a sweaty horse on these endless prairies while the great words exploded across the country, Vicksburg, Chancellorsville, Antietam, Appomattox, the policeman on the corner, while history rolled across Georgia to the sea. Five hours on the way now. Less than three hours till dawn, and we're at the North Fork of the Platte in a full 25 minutes for watering call. Some of the men lie sleeping where they've dismounted. Others huddle together in the moon shadow of the high bank, quietly talking. Then she just left me standing there like a bound boy at a husking. Yeah, what'd you do then? Well, well, nothing to do except join the army. I had a little girl in Richmond. The time I was at Grant when we took Richmond. She wasn't at all like that, not at all.  Nah, not me. I never even seen one. When I was in the breastworks in front of Vicksburg, I had a catfish. Didn't like it. I could sure put away a lobster right now. Press you out of the lobster button into the cooking button. Live? Sure. That's the only way to cook a lobster. Sure, wish I was back in Wisconsin. I'll get you back in the state of Maine and you'll be prying away for Buffalo steak. That true word was never spoken. Some people just ain't never satisfied. I ain't never satisfied for a fact. Tell you that. That's how you get some place in the world, know that? Never be satisfied. I sure got you a long way, didn't I? Got me a stripe. Yeah, well, looks like you can plan on getting even further, Sovere. Captain's getting fidgety again. Oh, well, another day, another dollar. All right, men, fall in. Here we go. Prepare an amount, pass the word. Mount? Mount. Round step forward. Round step forward. Hands. Yo. Yo. He's heading north. How's that, Sergeant? North. Captain's heading north. You're right, Sergeant. Red Mesa should be to our left. Instead, it's dead ahead. That doesn't make any sense. Pass it. My father would have done things differently. In the cold, dying moonlight, I could imagine him. Young Major Cohill, riding out of St. Joe to convoy the wagon trains bound west on the Oregon Trail. What a figure he must have been on the old frontier, when the Missouri River itself was the jumping off place. Killer Cohill, his men had called him, but the wide-roaming Arapahos had another name for him.  By this time, father would have cut those Apaches into coyote meat as they lay sleeping around their smoldering campfire. Mr. Kyle. Mr. Kyle, sir. Yes, Sergeant? Were you dozing, sir? No, no, of course not. I was just thinking.  Thank you, Sergeant. I said you wanted me, sir. Yes, Mr. Cohill, I do. This is Officer's call. Listen carefully. I have Sergeant Sutro ahead of me with a point. You will relieve him with eight men and push forward fast. Yes, sir. You recall the four to cross Red Mesa Wash? Yes, sir, we crossed it yesterday. Exactly. There's a knoll on the east side of the wash. A knoll that is crossed by the trail from the top of the mason. I remember, sir. Beyond that knoll before dawn. Build a bivouac fire as soon as you arrive. Do what, sir? Build a fire. I want to know when you get there. Well, I can send a scout back to tell you when I arrive. I want everyone else for miles around to know it, too. Build a bivouac fire, a squad fire, no larger. Yes, sir. Should you happen to be attacked, you'd hold that knoll fighting on foot. And remember, the dawn light works for you. But it can fool you in this country, so don't shoot to the last possible moment. I don't understand. You don't have to. You have your orders. Yes, sir. Move out, Mr. Cohill.  Riggle. In just a moment, we will return to the second act of escape. But first, look what's going on. CBS Tomorrow Night. George Burns will, for the first time, unveil his sugar-throat voice when the Andrews sisters come to call on him and Gracie. Bing Crosby will go west, young man, go west. For William Boyd, alias Hopalong Cassidy, will be Bing's special guest. And Bing will become Sagalong to team up with Hopalong for a hilarious Western sketch. You'll also hear the antics of top comedian Groucho Marx and another Dr. Crosby. So make Wednesday nights a stay-tuned to CBS Night, for these great shows are heard on most of these same CBS stations. And now, back to... Escape. You knew Red Mesa was there, only because the star stopped where it stood. The moon was a honey-colored ladle, spilling blackness over the edge of the plains. Then the jagged teeth of the rock of the sea broke it into ragged pot-shirts, and it was gone. It was dark. Black dark. Cold dark. The squad fire sputtered and took and pushed the night back a little. This was different. This was command.   And it wasn't at all like you expected. It just plum-scared you. Hey, don't stand still, Mittendorf. Keep moving a little all the time. And slap those mounts. Keep them moving, too. Yes. Hey, Lieutenant. Sir? Yes, Sergeant.  He said we're the bait on his hook. Huh? Decoy. If there's an Indian War party, where to draw them out? Uh, better put on some bacon to fry, Lusk. Make it look natural. Meaning weons may end up like Mr. Gresham and his patrol. There's always that possibility. Hmm. It ain't a prospect that pleases, sir. That's what a soldier lives for, Sarver. To die. It is? Uh, I mean, yes, sir. Was a good performance. To any watching Sioux or Apache, here was a small white soldier war party. Like the two yesterday's party, they had left lying scalpless in the buffalo grass 30 miles up the valley. Firelighted, bacon cooking, horses unsaddled, and warriors sleeping from a long night march. Soft for the killing. Only the warriors weren't sleeping. Beyond the yellow carpet of firelight, they lay fanned out behind their saddles, waiting, sorting the night sounds with straining ears, pushing at the soft wall of darkness with widened eyes. I sure wish those dead-burn coyotes didn't sound so much like human beings. Well, you can be sure of one thing. No Indians running around in the middle of the night yelling like a coyote. Yeah. But it sure makes me nervous. Sound like Hoodie Owls back home in Maine. What's that behind you? Don't get in a fret, boys. It's only me. Oh. General Grant's chief is stuck. You know you're lucky I didn't put a bullet through you. Nah, nah, you wouldn't do that. Lieutenant said not to fire till commanded. Any of you fellas ever had engine pudding? What? No. I had sweet potato pudding when I was with Sherman and that lander, but I didn't like it much. Was you with Napoleon at Waterloo? Nope. But I've been talking to Lieutenant. Naturally. What's the word from headquarters? He's made a corn meal in molasses. Why? Engine pudding. Oh. Seen any savages yet? No, and don't expect to yet. Why? There ain't an Indian in the west of the Missouri that'll come out and fight at night if he can help it. That's right. Afraid to take a chance of being killed at night. They believe if a warrior's killed at night he'll be blind when he gets to the happy hunting grounds. Well, then what are we worrying about? Who's worrying? Not me. Oh. Then you can start worrying. Hm? Dom's coming. Can make out the mesa planar. Sure would lack some engine pudding for breakfast. Slowly the light came. First you could see the outline of the mesa. Then down below the silver of the water in the wash. Then the shapes of the men. And out across the plain the feathers of mist in the draws. If it was to come, it would come now. Hold your firemen. Arrows. They're shooting arrows. What'd you expect? They're Indians. What's that? Hit one of the horses. Here they come. I got one of the heathen. I got two. Look at them lying yonder. One of them's still wriggling. I'll fix that. Hold your fire. Well, I was just... They'll be back. That was only the beginning. Yes, sir. You all right, coffin? My leg, sir. Bone shattered. Hurt much? A little, sir. Those arrows, you're wicked. Let's go right through them, man, if they don't hit bone. Do tell. No action in the new army, unservered. Well, it ain't exactly like Gettysburg. Here they come again. Hold fire. Yeah, the light's better this time. It makes no difference. Hold your fire. They're the ones you did, Mr. Gratiuman. Look, that one's wearing corporal shepherds. And it is one with a U.S. cavalry seat. That's Captain Gretel. That's what I want. I was likely having breakfast at the port. Decor. We're done, man. Hold fire. That took care almost half of them. Yeah, they'll be back. Ah, now they won't. That's Captain Gretel's now. Yeah, attacking from the flank. Hey, Sivert, Captain Gretel's got him on the run. Say, can you pull this tarnation arrow out of me? Down below the knoll, the remains of the Apaches were streaking for the open plains, with Captain Gretel's men overtaking them, cutting them down with thirsty sabers and pistalling the ponies as they ran. And then it was quiet, and not an Indian or his pony was left alive. Coffins sat, propped up against a saddle, lighting his pipe. His shattered legs stretched naked and useless before him.  His hands around the shaft sunk deep in his left side below the ribs. The feathered tip waving idly with each shallow breath. Can't we do something for him, sir? What? Look how deep that arrow is. Right under the heart. Can't cut it out, can't pull it through. And poor Sivert. He finally saw action. Yeah, I can hear him now telling St. Peter about the time he beat the Apaches on the coal hill. It's not very funny. No, I guess you're right, Coffin. How's your leg? Painting you much? Can't feel anything. Lieutenant. Yes, Coffin? You think they'll send me back home to get this fixed? You think maybe I'll get to see the state of Maine right soon? I hope so, Coffin. I don't land a ghost you know. You won't get further than the base hospital of Council Bluffs. I'll wire you together to slap a plaster on you and send you right back to fight Indians. It was a strange feeling. A mixture of pride and guilt. Watching a man die whom I had commanded into action. Looking at the shattered leg of another. And a feeling of helplessness too. For the moment we could only sit there and wait. Our horses were dead or stampeded by the action. We were alone on our little hilltop in the hot red glare of the rising sun. And then the company rode back in triumph and I was reporting to Captain Brittle and it seemed like months instead of hours since I had last looked at his tired gray face. Mr. Cohill, you did that well. You may do in time. Captain, you knew they were apaches yesterday at sundown and you knew they were camped on top of the mesa, didn't you, sir? Mr. Cohill, accuracy and observation is a military virtue. Had you pushed forward to that slope yesterday afternoon you would have found Mr. Gresham not sleeping buffalo. And had your eyes been sharp you would have found this between the slope and last night's bivouac. And a patchy headband. That's right. And bloodstained. And had you been a plainsman and suspected apaches you would have looked at once for smoke at sundown from the highest ground. In this case, red mesa. You had me fooled, sir. I even thought... The facts for the record are these. My patrol, temporarily bivouacked at dawn today came under a sudden enemy attack. Fortunately, it was able to hold until I arrived with the main body. I understand perfectly, sir. I'm familiar with departmental orders which allowed defensive actions only and expressly forbid attack. And yet they are in direct violation of cavalry tactics. But cavalry is extremely weak on the defensive and can only defend well by attacking. I believe that is also taught at West Point. Captain, I'm terribly sorry for my... Mr. Cohill, never apologize. It is a mark of weakness. There's a captain out here who tried at once to escape an inquiry board.  The officer who sought to it could have worked with him and made a soldier of him if his humanity had been large enough. Mr. Cohill, I'm going to make a soldier out of you. You may present my respects to General Cohill as you write your father. Mr. Cohill, take morning stables. Escape is produced and directed by William N. Robeson. Tonight we have presented command by James Warner Bella, adapted for radio by Mr. Robeson. Featured in the cast were Elliot Reed as Lieutenant Cohill, Bill Johnstone as Captain Brittle's and Ted D'Corsia as Sergeant Utterback. Also heard were Sam Edwards, Tony Barrett, Burt Holland and Paul Freese. Special music was arranged and conducted by Del Castillo. Next week... You are standing on an unfinished roadbed somewhere in Mexico. It is night and a drunken, murderous foreman is forcing you to dig till you drop. The 45 in his hand means that for you, there can be no escape. Gracie Allen's campaign to make George Burns a real singing rival to Bing Crosby, his Wednesday night neighbor on CBS, is reaching its climax. Tomorrow night, backed by the beauty and talent of not one, but all three Andrews sisters, George's Sugar Throat Burns will definitely try out his tonsils and song. Being or Sugar Throat? It's really no choice for CBS fans, for you can hear each Sugar Throat following Bing every Wednesday night on most of these same CBS stations. Now stay tuned for Hit the Jackpot, which follows immediately over most of these same stations. This is CBS, where you'll find adventure and escape every Tuesday night. The Columbia Broadcasting System.


Let's see. Oh, A14. OK. Oh, wow. We have lots of agenda. OK. Should we, I guess we have a packed agenda. Should we get started? Yeah, let's do it. Is Chris actually here? Good to see him. We only have a couple of people. I guess he probably just wants another plug for EnvoyCon. The CFPs are due in like a week, two weeks or something like that. So people can submit. That would be awesome. I'm happy to help with CFPs if anyone wants it who's listening in on the recording or I'm sure other people would too. So great. You want to talk about fuzzing, Harvey? Yeah, just general heads up that a lot of puzzles have been landed on. I kind of feel that we now include coverage of most of the interesting parts of the data plane. I would like folks who are aware of things which are not covered and are interested in having fuzzers written or there are other parts which are not data plane related whether we can get a high payoff from fuzzing. Please do reach out to me and I'm happy to consider adding such fuzzers and at least getting on the roadmap for fuzzing so we know where we can best focus our efforts there going forward. That's just a quick advertisement there. Yes, then on to Congress' GCC. Wait, sorry. Just on the fuzzing thing, just for our offline conversation, just for everyone's benefit, I mean, I think you've done an awesome job on getting all of this working, but I think we're all on the same page that it's worth it at this point just to burn down the existing bugs, basically. Is that the plan, effectively? Somewhere between 30 and 40 of these bugs now. Well, some of them are related to fuzzers themselves or the integration or the integration test flakes and that kind of thing. So hopefully they all just provide a general improvement just to the ability as we address them. There's been some interesting ones just pop up in the last few days. It's one of these header parts that have come up. So we can look into them. I think they're exercising very unusual situations, like very large timestamps and epochs and things like that. We should generally just fix these things. So yeah, that's kind of the plan is to actually burn those down and also just understand buzzer efficacy. There's a lot of metrics we can look at to improve things like how there's stability metrics, there's coverage metrics and there's an indication rate metrics which can be used to guide how you want to tune a buzzer to actually do a better job and actually make some use of some of those. Do you want to briefly just talk about that meeting that we had about the net specter stuff? Like I don't think there's anything secret about it. I mean, it's somewhat related. Yeah, Google, we'll be looking at tooling around what the detection specter gadgets coming in the coming weeks. And we have folks at Google who are interested in this and working on this area. This isn't that's particularly important given the recent net specter paper where people demonstrated remote exploitation of specter by packet timing essentially. And that's definitely kind of interesting. Cool. Sweet. Anyone have any thoughts or comments on that stuff? Yeah, we're just generally in security hardening. I mean, that's an area where we're generally interested in these days at Google. Yeah, I think we would like to basically take on most things that are reasonable in that space and at least get them prioritized and you know, go off the low hanging and figure spent about the first sort of efforts. I mean, no, one thing we can definitely do is get clarity back online. That's something which is in the background. Yeah, I mean like we should definitely do that. I think again, from our offline conversations, you and I are on the same page that co-variety is generally a sea of false positives which is a waste of time. But I see no reason not to turn it back on since I think it's pretty trivial to do so. Even if we're going to give that, you know, report a glance every few months, I think that's better than not having it. Yep. Yeah, there are some other things we can look at also in the area of hardening. Like Clang has stack, smash. Yeah. Which we don't turn on today. I think it's some performance talk. Cast is also like a safe individual libraries and things like that, like they're likely to use instead of defaults. You know, whether we want to turn all of these on in the default hot belt or not, maybe one, but it may even make sense to have a hardened version of on-boy work for folks who are, you know, using this, for example, in-edge applications versus internal applications where traffic is largely trusted. And, you know, over time, that may make sense. There's also other things that I think could be interesting to explore, for example, cutting out of on-boy things which aren't necessary. So examples include, like, do you really need Jason and Yaml support for some folks to do things more optional?  Do you need H1 and H2 support? Most of the actually interesting ones, I think, are places where we can reduce dependencies and third-party software and data plane because, you know, when you're looking, when you're doing a security analysis of on-boy, on-boy is just one part of the picture. In terms of trust, I actually think we have a very healthy relationship in on-boy. And I think most of the contributors, most contributions are systematically reviewed by people who, I think most of the people in our community would trust. Other projects I don't have the same understanding of. I know some of these projects, most of our dependencies are either rule-originated or using many other places. But beyond that, actually understanding the nature of the communities and how easy it would be for experts to sneak into them, I don't have as good a feel for. Yep. Yeah, I mean, this is all, I think, super valuable work. So I'm very happy that it's happening. Is it feasible for someone to go and add fuzzing of, say, like extensions, or is it something that requires access to whatever the systems that are actually running the tests, or is it just a matter of knowing how to do it, or is there- That's actually very easy to do. And there's a lot of good examples. I actually plan on writing up a medium post of fuzzing in the coming few weeks, and that will sort of explain the basics and how to add these. So if you own an extension and want to add fuzzing, that will be the place to maybe take it to start from. But it's actually, it's really, it can be as simple as, like, you know, if you, in particular, if you're finding a fuzzing puts in protoform, or you've got datamole in protoform, it can be as simple as like 50 lines of code or fuzzer. I mean, I added a fuzzer for the route lookup table the other day, which in about an hour and a half, and that now exercises all the route lookup and path matching stuff. And that was a pretty big win for a very good little set of efforts. And so I would generally actually encourage people who write extensions to do that. I mean, and also people who write non-trivial data structure, so a good example might be like the LC try. That would be a good thing to fuzz. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, having a blog post and some getting started documentation, I think will be awesome. I've been really impressed with how powerful the whole framework is. It's pretty incredible what you can do. Yeah, I would have some documentation on that already, but it could definitely improve for making more like a tutorial than, hey, here are the basic steps for getting the build to happen and that kind of thing. Yeah, and like I think just some discussion since you've done so much of the, like so much different tests now, I think even just some best practices because it seems like when you build these fuzz tests using proto, like that's when you can do really incredible things, but even just some guidelines from your experience on the way to think about it, like it's unclear to me how you're generating some of the corpus. So even just like some general discussion of how you've approached some of the tests, I think would be really useful from a learning perspective. Yeah, that's definitely fine. So I'll get that out there and hopefully we can get other folks in the community also building fuzzers and- Yeah, that would be fantastic. Yeah, just read that effort. Cool, so yeah, I think you would have heard me- Well, that's a good, I think that's a good segue into talking about compiler stuff because you had talked about turning on stack, you know, stack guards and stuff like that. So yeah, so I think Peoder opened a PR just to change the default compiler to Clang. I think this is something that I've been thinking about for a while in terms of do we wanna switch over to Clang? It seems like that's where the industry is going. So I'm like, I'm for it. I just think it might need a little more thinking and diligence than just making the change. So I guess I'm curious what people think, but the three things, you know, given magical resources that we might not have that I've been thinking about is, I think we should move from Clang five to Clang six. So that includes Clang six since it's now released Clang six format. So essentially upgrading Clang. I'll give it to Clang eight, like should we be going to Clang seven or is there? Clang seven is the current development version as far as I know. So Clang six is the last like release version, I think. It's what I saw Clang eight the other day when I was looking at some documentation. Then maybe they just released Clang seven. I'm not sure. But I know that in the Ubuntu repos, Clang six is definitely the one that they have and then it's mainline. I'm guessing what you've saw is they're probably about to release Clang seven and that's why it's switched to Clang eight probably. I see that that probably makes sense. Yeah. But like, I mean, but we should, since we're I guess clearly very far behind, we should at least switch to Clang six, particularly because now that they build those Debian packages for Ubuntu, like it's super easy to actually upgrade. So I think we should do that. The other thing that I, so then, so I guess they're switched to Clang six or Clang seven. There's whether we want to switch the default builds, there's potentially do want to revisit some of the compile flags, like turn on stack guards and other things. So I would like to revisit using FLTO. So that's the full program optimization. What would you try in the FLTO on? So you don't, so there's two separate things. So FLTO is just whole program optimization without any training. And then there's the, there's the PGO, the profile guided optimization. So I'm just proposing turning on FLTO or at least experimenting with it. The reason just for historical context, the reason that Envoy has not historically used FLTO is that at least as of about three years ago, GCC has historically had problems with debug symbols when FLTO is on. So like the code might be faster, but then if you look at a core dump, like symbols and call stacks are all messed up. I'm guessing that's been fixed now, but I honestly haven't looked at this in several years. So, you know, it would be worth just looking into like, what does FLTO do for like a standard performance run at least for some real world use cases? Does a core dump look correct? Like can you debug it basically? So those are the three things that I've been thinking about. Are there things that other folks have been thinking about? I would just put out that the motivation for Pira's work is that Istio have had some serious performance.   And they're deciding that on void, what Istio and by implication on void isn't scaling practically. And so Pira and Lizanne and so on are engaged right now in a bunch of work on trying to get to the roots of this. And one of the things did end up being an LC try and it was sort of solved by switching to Clang. But yeah, that's just some background context. So in terms of the actual things to actually consider turning on, yeah, I think these are all interesting. Well, one thing we really would benefit from and this is a lot of work. So I don't think this is gonna happen overnight and maybe not at all. It's a way to systematically make these decisions by having an open source performance framework for Envoy. I agree. Like these are the tests we run. We saw this regression of 5%, we'll improve them of 10%. I agree. That's like the rational thing to do. Building that out is a lot of work. Yeah, and that's something I would love to work on and maybe sometime in the future I will do that. Actually, ironically, getting physical machine resources to do that is actually not a problem because CNCF has a test cluster. So like we have computers and a network that we could use to actually do such a thing. Obviously, building the thing with like how you deploy and like actually monitor and do all those things. That's like a multi-month effort. Yeah, stable low variance benchmark represents what the community cares about. Like this is a lot of work. Right. So the best that we can do currently to be honest is I think when we make some of these changes, like at Lyft, we can do some basic performance entity checks. It seems like the folks over at Pinterest generally do per fork, like they can test some things. Like once Google is using it more in production, like you'll be able to run some benchmarks. Yeah, we have teams building internal benchmarks which we should actually fill in this role. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of like after the fact, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I guess what I would suggest is it seems like, so there's two things. So there's the LC try thing and it seems like that was fixed by Brian Payne's PR. So it's like, I don't know that the client fix is even needed. The other high level comment that I would say which is probably obvious to people is that with regard to Istio and people using thousands of listeners, I would say that sometimes some of the use cases I would not consider reasonable. So like Envoy is not being used in a reasonable way. So there's performance fixes that we should investigate but that doesn't mean that like every benchmark that people say is slow means that we have to change the world. Like that's my only point. I agree. I mean, looking at like the specifics there, it seems that there are multiple ways of fixing that problem. They basically provision like all the services to all. Exactly. I've told them this many times, like they cannot do what they're doing but they do it anyway. So I'm just making the point that I'm not opposed to performance fixes. We should absolutely do them. I just think that we have to look at the big picture which is that like we, you know, in helping people use Envoy, we have to also help them use it in a reasonable way. That's my only point. Yep. Yes. That's fair. So like I don't, I feel like with Peotr's PR, I just don't feel like enough diligence has been done. So I would still propose that we close it and open another tracking issue on like, upgrade clang, try to get some input on people testing clang in some production environment to look for like obvious regressions. And then maybe at some point, I or someone else can do some investigation on FLTO and determine whether we want to turn that on or not. Those are, and then I think in there too, we can talk about do we want to turn on the stack guards, maybe look at the Perf Delta for that. Like there's a couple other things. I see no reason personally, like I feel like the Docker image that we export from the project should be a security hardened as possible at the expense of Perf. And then if, you know, we can have guides that say, you know, if you like want to have maximum Perf, you could turn off this stack compile flag or something. But, but, but again, like that's something that we can, we can chat about. Yeah, no, I kind of agree. I mean, that will also put us in a better position if we need to like deal with the security responses and like that, like by having more things out there, which are my defaults safe, yeah. Yeah. All right. So do we then, so I guess what would the, so do people agree that we should potentially close his PR and like open a tracking issue or do we want to continue to discuss in the context of that PR? But I think close, it's bigger issue than just that, all right. All right. Okay, sounds good. Anyone else have any comments on the compiler issues? Actually, we're now using Clang 5, sorry, what? Upstream, we're now using Clang 5. Yeah, baked in like we, we download from the Debian repo and we're using Clang 5 now. So I think just like switching to Clang 6 is a total no-brainer. And I think, I think Peoder has a PR for that somewhere. So we should just do that, like that, that one is just easy. So let's just do that. And then I think whether we switch the release docker image to Clang, I think that's an open discussion. And then obviously these other compile flags like FLTO and stack guards and whatever, I feel like that's a, that's a separate conversation. I was just Googling around. I think Xcode is actually based on Clang 4. Really? How, like, don't they- They stopped a few versions of Xcode ago. They stopped telling you what version of Clang their compiler was based off of. So- Did they fork it and like, they're forked now? Or really? I know, I know someone at Apple that we can ask about that. So I will, I will find out. I mean, it's probably fine. I think it may be a problem someday when you wanna switch to C++. Some newer year may eventually be a problem. And I think the other stuff is just flags that you're not gonna, maybe not gonna be able to turn on in that Mac build, which is okay. It would probably be easier and cheaper if I just went around and gave everyone an Ubuntu ThinkPad and I just dropped this whole OSX situation and then wouldn't have this problem anymore, would we? There we go. Just throw it out there, I don't think- No, that's a good point. I have no idea what the implications are there. Okay, looks like next is packed header format. Who pooped that on there? Well, I put it on there. Like, sure, I don't think it's dialed in, but essentially there's a discussion of like, hey, let's do a packed header format. And then he's like, I just wanna make progress. I don't feel like I don't know if anyone has something into what that format should be, but it'd be nice to decide one so he can come make more progress. I mean, it seems like for better or worse that we've already decided on things, like for the XFCC header we're doing, I think semicolon's unlimited. So, I mean, like all things being equal, I would say we should just try to be consistent, but I haven't thought about it that much. I probably wanna bring Pioter in on this discussion because there's an RFC for like- Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah. No, but I think we would actually like, we're maybe missing out because he actually has some, like he attends IETF and speaks to folks who are designing headers and stuff. And apparently there's an RFC on how to, you know, create these sort of like list-based headers and in a way which is, you know, standardized and hopefully will be adopted more widely for other standard headers going forward. And this has come up in other discussions, like with the Envoy error procreation. I don't know how it was propagation and I'm kind of, yes, I was originally very sort of pro and gung-ho about using JSON and proto and stuff like that, but I've been persuaded that the right thing to do is actually just basically do whatever's in this RFC. Yeah, I mean, if there's some RFC that sounds good, let's definitely look at that. I do think we have to consider some existing places like XFCC where we are doing this. And I mean, it's fine. Like we can just call that header legacy or something and we're gonna do this new version or we can have an option that does old style and then the standard or something. Yeah, okay. I guess can we loop Pewter into that issue? I think for Mike Shor's case, yeah, it's problematic because what he wants to do is going to require changes in Lyft's client apps. And obviously once we roll that out, that's a giant pain to change. So it would be nice to figure something out that's a little more concrete. I don't think what he's working on is so burning urgent that we can't spend like a week or two trying to come to some consensus here. So should we tag Pewter in that issue and try to get a link to that RFC? I just dug up the RFC from a prior thread with you. So I think I got it. Structure headers for HTTP, yeah. Okay, all right. Okay, I'll post that in the bug as well. Okay. Or just those two and people can weigh in, please do weigh in. All right, sweet. Last issue looks like controlling time and integration tests. What's that? Yeah, this is mine. This is just, I've noticed while looking around the code and also we've been burned recently with some test flakes that a lot of code is pretty much just using real time in the context of integration tests. And I was surprised by that and I thought maybe there should be some way to pass down like a time source from the server or something that in the context of an integration test would be simulated. And thought that might be a bunch of refactors, which I wanted to just get a sense is that going to be something that we wanna see or is that something where we just want integration tests to use real time and just make the timeouts long enough so flakes happen less often? No, you and I are on the same page.  Like I would love to purge it all. I think it's just the code has grown organically to be like it is. Yeah, so if we start generating some refactors, as long as it's kind of in that direction that'll make sense. Yeah, I mean, while we're on this topic, one thing that I would love to, we're kind of out of time, but like one thing that I'd love to figure out, maybe we can do it over email or something is, I feel like with the integration tests in particular, we need to have some, like we should have some guide around like how to test it before submitting it just because it has flakes. But anyway, we can talk about that next time. I think it's out, so yeah, we have to go. Okay, that's good. All right, anyone else have anything? No? Okay, all right, bye.


Okay, hello everyone. I hope I'm audible. If not, I can shout louder. That's not a problem. So I'm Divya Mohan and released that I can say is that I'm extremely honored because I really am to be speaking at the Emerging OS Forum at the open source summit today. So I'll be speaking about the WebAssembly landscape but we'll get to that in a bit because I realize that I have not introduced myself and honestly speaking I don't think a lot of y'all know me so I'm a technical writer with SUSE and I'm also an advisor to Avesha. Over and above the open source work that I do at my day job I'm also heavily involved in the cloud native ecosystem as the docs maintain on the Kubernetes as well as the litmus chaos projects and suddenly the cloud native ecosystem is how I stumbled upon into the WebAssembly ecosystem as well and I promise that this was not an intended segue but I'm going to take it. So if you're absolutely into Marvel or DC Comics or any franchise for that matter, you'd probably know that the villain or the superhero actually has an origin story. It basically sets the context really of how they got their powers and how they rose to the fame or the infamy and how they conquered. So basically that's what I'm going to be doing, a bit of context setting for WebAssembly and let's have a look at that. Now this is a no brainer because WebAssembly has the name Web in it so it started right at the origin of the internet which was back in the 1990s and if you look at the page here there's like the first page of the internet for those who don't know and you'll see that this doesn't have like a lot of interactivity and the dynamism that we've come to associate with the Web and we kind of take that for granted but what the internet essentially started out was a document sharing network for among you know folks it's on. So that's of course still JavaScript came into the picture a few years later. A programming language that was written for the Web, JavaScript was made available in the year 1995 if I've not gotten my math and my timeline's wrong and it's ever since become a member of the holy trifecta of the Web that is HTML, CSS and JavaScript. So it's you know in order to introduce more dynamism, JavaScript wasn't alone in its venture we also had plugins like Flash and Silverlight come into the picture. Now I know we were going you know I was going to talk about WebAssembly but this is like a little bit of heavy context setting. Plugins were required and introduced a few years later as a way to contest maybe the rise of JavaScript and you know in the quest to bring dynamism to the Web. For those of you in the audience who don't know I'm pretty sure there are none who don't know what plugins were they were downloadable software that could be used to view multimedia content stream audio video and execute rich applications such as you know games on the web during the early internet days of course. But I digressed a bit there because we're here to understand more about WebAssembly and why it came into the picture. So what exactly was the problem with JavaScript and these plugin things? Well when it came to JavaScript what ended up happening was that because it was so widely accepted and the entry level barrier was low I don't know who said that but anybody who works with JavaScript right now does not really think that. The entry level barrier was low it ended up becoming a sort of de facto programming language which is fine but it also ended up becoming the de facto compilation target which meant that any language any application written in any language if you needed to bring it to the web you need to necessarily compile it to JavaScript and this wasn't super optimal given that JavaScript wasn't designed to be a compilation target in the very first place. Additionally when we talk about performance intensive applications like say your Figma or your Photoshop or an application running an AI ML workload these started throwing up glaring inconsistencies in performance. We're all technologists here so I'm not really you know going to go into the details of what is a strongly language and what is a weekly type language but being a weekly type language gave JavaScript as many drawbacks as the benefits and the competition wasn't really that great from the plugin side of things because it was a downloadable software and anybody who has used plugins knows the amount of viruses that came along with it so it was a massive security nightmare and the compatibility of these plugins across devices or operating systems didn't really help the case either. So as it stands today Flash by Adobe and Microsoft Silverlight stand discontinued in terms of usage and our quest for alternatives began you know way back then and with all these problems in our head. So there were a number of efforts underway which led to the you know cropping up of the ASM.js specification one of them being the introduction of Rust then other being the M script and initiative but it was the ASM.js specification that made its way into the ecosystem nine years ago moving us one step closer to WebAssembly as we know it today. So what is the ASM.js specification I've borrowed this because I think it's a very cool slide that was presented in the cloud native WebAssembly day it's by Bailey Hayes you should definitely go check her talk out as well because it was a fantastic keynote it's she called it the greatest hack ever and I kind of tend to agree with her because ASM.js is basically a strictly typed subset of JavaScript a couple of slides back when we spoke about disadvantages of JavaScript I talked about weak typing being one of them with ASM.js only top level named functions and simple constructs were allowed again throwing back to a slide I showed before there was the whole process of compiling to JavaScript which is a major hindrance for bringing applications written in other languages onto the web ASM.js leverages the M script in a compiler that's LLVM Clang based for transpiling C or C++ code into ASM.js now obviously this was crap too because we're talking about WebAssembly why was that the case so the ASM.js spec was a disjointed effort and by disjointed I mean that one set of folks were already working on the ASM.js specification but there were other initiatives like the native client and the portable native client initiatives by Google to bring languages like C++ C to the front end although there was an eventual convergence with all these efforts being you know taken up by different industry folks there was a recognition that there is a need for standardization with respect to you know this direction so that's how circa 2015 WebAssembly was announced as a standard now the initial implementation was based on the feature set of ASM.js and the MVP that was announced in 2017 and it's still what we're working with today the public working draft was announced I think a couple of months back I think April for the second version but it's just a draft it's not you know nothing's there yet but let's let's take a step back what on earth is WebAssembly it's kind of a misnomer at this point given that it's neither web nor assembly you know neither it's it gave us to the web show but it's not exactly assembly level language at its core it's basically a compilation target and this means that it's basically more machine friendly than human friendly in the sense that the output is that of a compiler and it will be in the binary code format so when you're speaking about something that's there in the binary code format you unless you are an extreme enthusiast in the space you will not be interested in going through the you know reams of pages you get as output so we have a textual format within the WebAssembly ecosystem to complement that so that you know if you're an enthusiast or if you are actually you know interested in writing compilers and stuff like that um you can use that um like I said before it's um you know it was designed for the web initially but it has extended its reach far beyond to the server side and other environments as well we'll see that in a couple of slides though um so yeah I mentioned that WebAssembly typically has a binary code format right and some of you must be wondering how and how do we actually end up writing real world applications or leveraging it for real world applications uh primarily because achieving a lot of the frills and fancies that we have with real world applications um involves networking it involves accessing memory bunch of other functions and WebAssembly has a specification and you know the core spec does not simply allow for that which is why the next section of the presentation here will be dealing with the wider ecosystem which is the component model um including the component model uh the WASI spec and you know folks and projects involved in this space so um but before we dive into the WASI spec which is specification for the WebAssembly system interface um this is what Solomon Hikes who's the founder and CEO of Docker had to say about it um when we started out as an industry we were heavily reliant on our um you know physical machines we used to run applications on them in fact the um first web page that I showed right at the start of the presentation ran on our next computer at Sun um we progressed from there to maybe you know having virtual machines on the same physical server then you know moved on to um cloud native uh microservices architecture with cloud native um tools then we obviously moved on to uh you know having them in different clouds and um we're not going to dive too much into the specifics but what containerization and transformation to the uh microservices based architecture aim to do uh was to actually lighten the divide uh between um the traditional development and operations team by actually letting developers take um you know developers worry only about the applications they write but that is still not the case uh with containerization we still have to worry about the apps app specific libraries bring in web assembly and that last layer gets abstracted away as well and that's why Mr. Hikes says or has actually tweeted what he did back in 2019 during the announcement of the wasi spec that if it were existing back then like during the announcement um of docker back in 2008 if um draw draw um docker probably we wouldn't have to go through the entire containerization bennett's revolution that we are going through um so what is wasi exactly um like i said before uh web assembly being a compilation target and a low level language uh doesn't have all the frills and fancies that are typically associated with a high level programming one uh memory network and file system management are some of the absolute basics that you would require when working with a real world application and when you're in a browser um wasm uses the browser apis to do this but like i said uh it has gone beyond the browser and we would need something to um need something for web assembly to actually interact with the system the actual system so in such an environment prior to the introduction of wasi uh there were no standard set of apis like we have in the browser side so that wasm could use uh it to interact with the underlying host the wasi spec sort of gives web assembly that capability to do uh to do it with the various proposals that are listed on this slide um of course this is not the only um you know uh important specification within the ecosystem but it's one of the uh important ones along with the web assembly gateway interface specification which is mentioned in the very last point um and now that we've spoken a bit about wasi uh you'll appreciate the component model uh even more because um it takes that reusability of code a bit further uh the component model defines an architecture platform and language agnostic format for representing executable code a web assembly module uh may import functions uh global variables etc from the host runtime and can export that to the host however there's currently no way to combine modules at runtime and uh there is no standard way to actually um you know pass high level types like strings and no records across module boundaries the lack of this composition uh for a module meant that means currently not meant means uh that modules have to be statically linked and uh you cannot dynamically link them at runtime um and they cannot you know when we spoke about web assembly the main thing was that we wanted it to be portable but with with this thing uh with this drawback it cannot communicate with other modules and as a result uh there's no way for communication um leading so because of the lack of communication there's no um way it can be portable um the component model basically allows um for this uh you know communication in a standard portable way and the dynamic uh linking of modules at runtime uh via provision of three features on top of the core specification uh one is that of the interface type the second is that of uh module and component linking and the third feature is that of the canonical application binary interface um so i've included a link to the uh you know component model um spec and the wasi spec at the end so you can reuse that uh after the slides are up i promise to put them up by the end of the day but yeah um once we speak about uh the component model uh the first thing that comes to mind is where do we run it uh where do we run the things or the applications that we write leveraging web assembly right once run anywhere was a dream we had begun to dream with java uh it soon transformed to write once debug everywhere and uh with javascript we sort of managed to come a bit closer to the original dream because it was the default programming language for the web but while running native code in the browser what tends to happen uh is that each time the source code gets transcribed to the relevant programming language by a compiler uh it leads to a lot of code enlargement uh the workaround is to use a compiler with specific auxiliary functions and uh based on the different features like uh wasi support um smaller troop uh smaller footprint and true compatibility with the right ones run anywhere um paradigm we have all these different run times to support web assembly currently and this is not an exhaustive listing because this would probably span like four five slides currently so i have just uh hyperlink the uh you know listing in the slide and it'll be available when they are put up um now next up is a quick look at all the major platforms leveraging web assembly to help uh solve various use cases uh for me on here uh i believe they're there in the sponsor showcase as well um they work on what uh web assembly uh powered cloud tools um suborbital uh it aims to turn anything into functions as a service fast platform uh was in cloud as a cncf project here um and it enables you to write business logic anywhere uh right from the edge to the cloud uh again not an exhaustive listing since it's an ever expanding ecosystem and um uh these are the various compilers available and interesting space to watch out for because um it's an it's an exhaustive list and the complete list uh with the github link is included at the end with the resources um it's an interesting space to watch out for because a lot of these compilers are currently in the stage uh wherein you know the work uh is completed but it's not currently uh it's usable but it's unstable so um it'll be interesting to see how uh uh you know work goes on in this particular ecosystem and uh when we talk about compilers the how can we leave languages far behind because the very first question that gets thrown at me when i speak about anything web assembly is what languages are exactly supported today and do we have to actually learn uh rush to learn web assembly so the answer is no uh there are um you know three different types of languages that are currently supported by web assembly uh you have like uh web assembly specific languages that have been written specifically uh you know to support web assembly that is assembly script is um you know one of the examples uh then you have scripting languages like python which now offer support for web assembly and of course there are higher level languages like cc plus plus rust that have exemplary support for web assembly as well so no you do not have to learn rust for it but if it's if you do choose to learn it it's a great language um i previously also think i referenced this uh transition from um on prem dedicated servers to um uh you know a more cloud native um declarative sort of architecture in the slide with Solomon hikes uh it's this is a fantastic pictorial depiction of what exactly uh you know web assembly tries to achieve um this is one of the keynotes it was there in the previous year's kubecon cloud native web assembly day and uh it's actually pretty self-explanatory in the way that uh you know uh the transition is at least um you know aiming i mean we at least aim to achieve in terms of you know the move to web assembly so the last level is what we aim to abstract away and uh the whole uh idea is to tightly couple cloud native and web assembly so that we can have uh we can have that in uh you know the near future uh now again uh not an exhaustive list but i personally work with kube burden a bit more so i can speak to that um so these are some of the projects there are um you know others that offer support for web assembly like uh opa also recently um you know announced so i haven't included that here because i had made the slides prior to that but uh yeah so uh kube burden basically is uh um project that leverages uh web assembly so that you can write your kubernetes policies in which of a language is most comfortable to you um caveat obviously is that uh the language needs to have a compiler that can translate it to worsen um but uh this is again a space that's growing because uh like i said that last level of abstraction um being removed is an interesting thing for a lot of folks in the cloud native ecosystem and the web assembly ecosystem alike so this is a place you can watch out for in terms of more developments in the future so where can web assembly be actually used um is the thing now um because i've spoken a bit about uh what it is uh its intersection with cloud native and um you know the transition and what all languages but uh it uh essentially what we try what we're trying to do with web assembly is that we're taking application code and um um we are trying to have it run anywhere whether it's on the edge whether it's on the web whether it's on your on-prem systems if you have any um whether it's on your desktop whether it's on your browser anywhere so um that's the end goal and uh we've sort of achieved that and i think a couple of slides further you'll be able to see a graphical um description of where all web assembly is being used currently uh but um there's a small example of how web assembly is uh being used currently uh in you know uh the space uh where flash and uh sorry flash and silver light used to be you know the pioneers so uh rafael which is a web assembly powered um web gl actually is the um uh powering um powering source behind flash emulation for prime video zoom and google neat and this is not a shout out or anything but it's just one of the things that i thought was interesting in terms of your life application but yeah this is a whole uh thing of where all we have um applications currently uh this i believe was made in i think 2019 or early 2020 so um there are far more uh you know branches right now so i i recently read about cloud flare uh supporting web assembly as well so it's uh it's not the only this is not like the only map but uh we've gone beyond the web as is clearly illustrated in this slide um that being said i um almost at the end so thank you for your patience um so what exactly is the future of web assembly and where are we headed so um currently it's not the default compilation target uh let's uh it all that's supported across all the major browsers it's um not the default compilation target across server side and client side applications sorry browser side applications so the future of web assembly is probably you know in this direction of becoming the default compilation target to have this have like that last layer of abstraction um you know cleared off um and of course with uh the component model um and was the spec enabling a reusability of code um we are looking at um more um standardization around software development and language neutral um application development as well um so these are some of the community and learning resources that you know are prominent in the ecosystem they're not the only ones though um so uh wasm.builders is a fantastic place uh wherein folks actually uh starting out or experienced are uh you know talking about their uh applications with web assembly the bytecode alliance um the cloud native computing foundation the confidential computing consortium all of our when and the w3c community group all of our vendor neutral homes uh for you know uh projects of web assembly and uh a huge shout out to all these um learning resources that i actually used when starting off um uh lin clark's blog in particular is a fantastic resource uh for anyone trying to get a grasp of what um the internal workings of web assembly are um uh she explains it in a really really simplified way uh uh similarly with the weekly newsletter that uh call in uh runs that's another amazing uh source of uh you know information to keep yourself updated but uh i guess that's it from me and thank you so much uh for you know listening in with all your patients and i hope you have a fantastic time thank you