All right, there we go. All right. Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer And that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly joining me as always is my co-host Tom What's up, buddy? Hello friends Also joining us tonight as we're talking about fixing beasts of chaos I had to go to the man who literally has based his his YouTube name and channel and persona around the hooves The hooves of doom. What's up, buddy? How you doing, man? I'm doing pretty good. Yeah, it's nice to be back on Hey, it's great to have you back. I'm sorry to hear you're you're moving again But I hope he gets settled in your new place soon and painless You've been making such great progress painting up slanesh. I don't want to see this Dedication to the god of excess Wayne. That's all I'm saying. I certainly hope it doesn't you know I I was really hoping to kind of be beyond slanesh at this point, but Everything kind of got delayed a little bit. So we'll we'll still be working on another month or so I'm in the exact same boat. It's fine. Look, you can never move past slanesh. Okay, just it Take an excessive amount of time on slanesh. It's great. Okay In other news, I'm selling a box a half of shadow and pain if anybody would like it This slanesh app Yes, okay. I mean like if you told me you were selling the doc half I think we'd have some buyers by the end of this sentence You know so sold. Yeah, exactly Alright Well, Tom, let us get to some news my friend. I hear there's news. Let's do news So rumor engine Nope pass pass on the rumor engine it is clearly it is the most clearly 40k rumor engine ever It's the Imperial Aquila of the Medics like the medica startes or whatever. That's what that's what the Aquila is on the side So you don't think that like no, you don't think that no crossover. Nope I mean we had another crossover announcement this week. You don't think it's part of that. Nope. Nope Nope Okay Actually, it just dawned on me. Well, I'll do that at the end. Okay, so I We had a No, let's get to the the headline of this week. Whatever you want, man We had a new luminous story dropped today. We did It was all right That's fine. And unfortunately, I don't have my balloon drop, but I was right There's nothing about what you said that's right in that story. You're ridiculous Chaos chaos has infiltrated the luminous They are there. They are corrupted They're brainwashing humans I'm just warning you folks beware the luminous Well, okay, so now let me accurately report the story since that's not actually what it's about It is clearly about how it is a very 1984 story like I read it and I was like that's cool I read 1984 too. I love big brother, right? because it's just their crack on that and The luminous are like very thought police To totalitarian like in the way that haish and the way that they see their nature of like this oppressive perfectionism Right. And so they they feel the need to perfect the humans. They're there with them as well, right and Bring them into alignment with their revelation. Yes. They enlighten them, but it's clearly not like there's no chaos take there That's where you're you're just filling in nothing you're filling in nonsense there But anyway, how the how the light of haish is is harsh sure and greats at the soul Yeah, I mean it was a fun little story written. It's like a journaling style of a guy to his wife or something and Yep, just just warning you the most interesting part about it was it takes place in a city of sigmar in haish Which is cool, right? Because it's like I can't wait to all cities of sigmar everywhere are ground into dust in the cities the shining cities of light That's not actually what he said, but there's there is an important distinction there He said I can't wait till they fall in a way and only the cities of the elves remain Which is a very classic elven thing, right?  This is why everyone hates them because this is their attitude So there no So there you go Ah Yes Yeah, cool, it's fine enough story like I said the interesting thing to me about it was I want to be like cool When are we getting the rules for that high-ish city of Sigma? That's what I want to know Like I just want I want a new city in I want new city rules in every book in every broken realms book There should be like add new city or two as we continue to bounce around the realms everyone So there you go Okay What's next Tom? We for next month those tricky elves are distributing their minis and their coins This month oh this month I guess it is March Yeah, I guess that's true.  Yeah, yep My nearest GW store is 45 minutes away from me, and I'm like nope I didn't go there for the slanesh coin. I'm not going for this Yeah Yeah Yeah, I being a collector how much did this tempt you hooves because you are like the preeminent collector It is tempting I did get the first coin in December, but I at this point I've accepted the fact that I can't get everything and this is one of the things that I'm willing to pass It's true for the simple reason that you know You got to think like I could go to the GW and pay full price Or I can go to a different retailer and get a nice discount. So the coin is kind of almost costing you money It's kind of a balance there the one model. It's nice. It might tempt some people It's kind of cool to paint up but like for me. I take very meticulous Control of the point values that I have and like one model. What are you doing? Yeah, it's it's I have like a unit of 11 and Yeah, it's that's what it is Gotta keep in the bits box. I mean for me My GW is like a quarter mile away. It if if yeah, yes, and I May not get that luminous. We'll see Well, we'll see But it's a great deal for anybody that wants to to get in and get started painting on those elves It is a good tester for these games. That's the yeah, that's it's amazing for that. Yep. Yep This week we also saw background stories for the cursed city drop and they're pretty sweet Yeah, good stuff. We got like the Zambos and their their boss the gravedigger guy We got Radizak or whatever his name is the the wolf boss the wolf vamp Dude, all right. No, let's be very clear the wolf ogre I Thought they said now. He's not an ogre No, he is an ogre. Yeah I use back and forth. He's definitely a wolf inspired dude. He killed the two-headed wolf. He's clearly a pirate I agree with that. Yes. Yeah, you're not wrong. He is a he is a vampire it so We got a we got him. We got him. Where's my So we got a vampire it and two vampire zombies done successful Nailed it Nailed it Thanks. Thanks. We tried hard. Yeah So that dropped check them out with that. We also got like the rat Vampire that's tied to the cursed city. Yeah, he's a really new Yeah, like so there's a new model announcement that they're gonna do every Monday, which is exciting Which is not their rumor engine, but basically revealing a whole models That's exciting and this week was a vampire draped in rats because of reasons Well, you know the reason it's cool.  That's because he hid in a corpse car to escape. Yes, right He he angel to his early rat existence. There's no early vampire existence eating rats.  Yes, sure Sure reasons And so, I mean that's cool You know, I I'm glad he exists for some people. I Mean, that's right up your alley, right Vince like rat. All right, this guy I I got a bone to pick with this guy. Okay. Let me tell you what about this go on this guy over here This is cultural appropriation. Okay, I am offended. I am offended sir okay Stealing of the rat thing trying to make it your own. This is this is ridiculous. It's ridiculous Okay That Skaven our culture With a long and proud history I do not appreciate this random vampire stealing our whole shtick and turning into a rat and And and being rat-like and wearing dead rats. This is it's it's insanity I I don't cotton to it. I don't appreciate it any and you sir Are canceled. That's what I have to say to you mr. Vampire guy. No, I mean, he's fine like it's it's a cool look I did you know joking aside He's he's fine. It's a neat story. I like his little tails hanging out the back I want to see if you can actually see them under the cloak like they kind of are they like Are they actually in the cloak or do they just pop out the bottom? So it's funny that you say that like is it the tails sued on sewed on to the Like trail or are there actual rats running underneath his his cape now? I looked like I like I zoomed in to see if I could see like any beating little eyes looking out of the shadows and I Can't yeah, I got it. Yes, exactly. So that was really disappointed actually so I was really hoping like that was the thing but it I Didn't get that But yeah, I mean he's fine like look why he's cool. He's got a swagger to him. I like a cane More models need canes So I'm not a fan of this like single infantry model on a 60 mil oval thing Just as a sort of general Concept, I don't love that Makes those heroes really weird to move around Because they're like trying to move around like cavalry in the middle of people But you know, it's it's fine like it's him and scrag rot and that L from 40k or the three times I can think of they did this right the lady with the cat Okay But you know like just keep them on infantry bases of some kind. That's cool. I'm good with that It's just it's weird because the base always ends up looking like this Right because the model doesn't actually take up those spaces always somebody with stuff dragging out behind them is when they do it Right So at any rate, but yeah, he's cool. Cool, dude. I don't know if he like he's not a villain of the box and They didn't say he's the one that comes with the book So I assume he's in the normal vampire army in the normal vampire army will have some connections to the city in some way So We'll see like that stays part of the soul like Ravelords But again, stop stealing Skaven's thing Tom back to you Yeah Yeah, I don't know I'm I'm mixed on him like he's fine Sure I'm glad he exists for some people Bellicorps video dropped announcing book three of broken realms Bellicor baby. Yeah, we still don't know Who's coming out but we know what book three. I mean it's this month sometimes sometime One can help I mean, all right hoops. How do you feel about Bellicorps? What do you want to see? What do you want them to see? What do you want them to do with Bellicorps like as a concept not rules wise? I don't care about that Like what do you want to see Bellicorps do in this narrative right because that's what we care about with these things Yeah, I mean I just want The narrative itself to be kind of changed and different right like I think chaos is pretty Along the board pretty standardized. You know, this guy's gonna hopefully shake things up and Add a little bit of flavor into the mix. I mean this guy's the first demon prince, right? so let's hope he has the rules and And the actual cool sculpt to kind of make it work Yeah, I mean I'm very excited for a new Bellicorps I do retain hope that there's an adjust it like an alternative build in there that is non Bellicorps demon prince, right? So that would be nice But even if not, it's fine if they don't I mean here's what to say either do that or Bellicorps becomes like half the demon princes on the tables, right? Yeah Right with the with like I could pie chart this 50 if you if you don't make an alternate build That's generic demon prince then 50% of all demon princes will be Bellicorps 40% will be creature caster models and 10% will be that old goofball Do you not think that they will That they will change his base size No, probably not. I mean he's they've kept that kind of like demon princey base pretty consistent Yeah, so he it's like a 60 mil round So he'll probably stay on a 60 mil well I'm just saying if they want to break that and make not all demon princess him without an alternative build Like I could see them bumping it to like a hundred Even they him and him still not be like bloodthirster size sure I mean, he's not going to be clearly, but my point is at the same time.  Yeah, okay Angelo DiCello built a building on a 60 mil base a three story Building that had ten miniatures on it fighting on across the three different stories So you can put a lot of 60 mil base turns out Apparently yep, she probably put like a hundred pound weight underneath. I mean, it's you know, it's big So, yes, let's hope for a dual kit. I mean, I just want to see Bellicor Put some actual strife into chaos like you know act as a Bulwark against Archeon create some chaos and chaos. Yeah Yeah, it should be an interesting model because it it Unlike the current model which is kind of resonant.  Yeah, the metal version. Yeah. Yeah That's fine. So anyways, Chris Thiel said is it 60 or 65? Yes Okay Cool. What's next? all the above um We had two events go live or at least announce that they're coming here in the u.s. This week Nashcon went live for signups and promptly sold out within a couple hours And so I believe they're capped at 45 right now But that could change given the certain given the health stuff that's you know, the ever-changing circumstances and then The holy havoc announced that they are going to have sign up starting July 1st and that they have locked in dates And so they have posted this for the fall and I am in for both of these Uh, absolutely.  Just the standard stuff you do at a tournament Are you uh, do you have your uh vaccine? Are you in line yet thence? I mean everybody's in line in some way or another right, so we got time. It's fine Licking people. Um, but uh, yeah, so it's exciting. I'm signed up as well for Nashcon So I am excited to go. I'm excited to roll some dice with folks Tom actually has a tournament to look forward to you're gonna see you're gonna watch him slowly start painting more stuff It's so funny because like Uh, red and melnick kind of pushed me. He's like see got your list yet And I was like, oh no Yeah, I started like spinning out like all the possibilities and realized that like I now in a meta Not knowing when the new ghp is going to come out and if we have a new addition before Nashcon And I'm looking at three top tier armies in a b-level army or a c-level fat middle army that I like I want to take And all of them are going to take different like model painted work and I'm like, oh no Oh, yeah, back to it. It's time again. Tom. Time to get back into it, buddy That's great. It's it's nice to see these events opening up People clearly want to get back into this instead of playing games. So Let's hope it happens. I agree. I agree Now I you guys are probably going to go to have it because a team, right? Oh, yeah Yeah, you know what you're taking or is that still secrets? You don't probably oh, I mean we tell you if we knew I just We haven't even discussed yet. Yeah, we don't we don't hide things like that It takes tom so long to make an army so it's like, you know, yeah, it'll take me six months to paint Which is the problem. All right. I was really wanting to take Like order of az or witch hunters But I don't think that'll be an army by the time that uh I'll run giants. Tom. It's cool. One mega three babies.  I'm just saying my army's four figs I've never had it. No, I could run like I could run like I didn't f and still run one giant. You could you could yeah, you could you could have one mega in there too Yeah, exactly right or or or then you got to fit in the rest of your army. That would be the challenge Yeah, but but So it's funny. I thought about running suns Like I was like, I don't know I can run suns and then I was like, why would I run suns? Which is going to be one mega and three babies first one mega And just any other half of an army because you want to be cool But I could I can play anything I could do anything for the other you could do anything But then you would be less cool. I think you're missing the point here, which is come on Come on Somewhere you're going wrong tom So anyway, so I don't know what I don't know what I'm gonna do. I don't know what we're gonna do Um, I'm gonna try to talk Vincent to something unusual that he's never done before I don't know what that is yet But uh, it worked with uh, when we did iron jaws and he fell in love with that army Um, and so I'm gonna see if we can find something else that he's never done and we can do something weird Get weird smash bat. Let's go get that new dude and I'll just roll out an FEC It could fit him in at the gate. You fit smash bat Yeah, but I don't know what pairs with that unless I literally do like something a full It doesn't matter. You don't need anything. You could have you could have a bunch of just like You know the the tent of clubs folded up and glued to bases, but he smashed battle handle the whole enemy army He's good. Smash back and smash that It's fine. Uh, does it work if your general is a warlord or whatever? Like however Yeah, we'd have to see what the command traits are that held that's gonna work. I mean, you need the command trait But anyways, okay, let's uh, let's but at any rate. What else do we got? This isn't part of the news Sorry, um Just went off on events tournaments are coming back. We're all very excited And I know there's a couple coming up here very soon down in australia down here in america. We've got months They've got both south australia gt coming up s a gt and victoria gt. I think is the other one Uh, both of whom i'm excited to see all the lists for and the ossees are deep into it It's never you know, they're they're uh, they're doing well down there and there's a lot of hot tournament action going on so So there you go.  His other hobby. Yeah, exactly. It appears that I was nine months ahead of the curve So, uh, uh There a partnership between gw and wizards the coast was announced to produce a a 40k themed magic product interestingly enough And so it just makes me wonder on the other side of like whenever the aos champions license drives up If there might be another aos related partnership so Yeah, so that'll be a real interesting like this is not a world. I could have ever have imagined. I mean, I don't know Vince did you see a crossover between? um wizards and and uh gw ever happening Wizards operating profit You know i'm saying not related to hero quest because like that's a crossover. I could have seen wizards of the coast net profit okay was something like uh 480 million dollars last year net profit net okay um, they made more money Than like profit wise than all of the rest of hasbro Any other division? Wait, you said you're saying you're saying games work games work. I know I'm saying wizards the wizards division Okay, yeah big good. Yes, and they ended the year on 1.48 billion dollars of liquid cash Yeah, sure. So um Yeah, my answer is yes because like wizards has figured out how to sell magic cards Really really well, and they're like, here's some more people we can sell magic cards, too so um I'll be by them that business Right doom. Yeah, they're running. What a 47 percent margin right now You know and saying that is for a b2c business of that size to run that kind of a margin Um, probably because you're selling tiny pieces of cardboard You're literally printing money. Yeah. Yeah, so at anyway more like watery tickets. You're literally printing watery tickets. Yeah Anyways, yes, it doesn't surprise me. Um, like I had zero interest in this or whatever it means My one hope for it. I'll tell you what I would be excited about if they ever did do aos Okay Would be uh, we'd get some cool art Because card art is I like a lot of card art. They do a lot of it's very boring Uh, I find a lot of it pretty like rote But in every set there are always a few standouts of really wonderful pieces of art that they do It's not the majority. It's the minority, but they're there and uh Yeah, so I that would be cool because we get some neat art takes on All of these all this stuff, which would be great I'm excited. So I'm not a big 40k fan But I like this partnership enough that I'll buy I'll buy a set of the They've said so far that it's going to be a commander deck set We don't know if that will come with an actual like full set because they are doing a full set of lord of the rings as well Yeah And so we we don't know if the 40k one is only commander decks. They've mentioned that it will include commander decks Uh, but we'll see I want to support the partnership. I love seeing these two Companies in conversation. So obviously it merges two of my horizons so yeah for I mean for my part I um I don't a lot of models but I also have a pretty broad collection in terms of comics and card games including and uh going back to Um early 2000s when the first 40k card games came out I collected those pretty aggressively and pretty much all the others that came after so This is right up my alley for sure There you go All right, that's the news. There you go. Okay well, uh Very good, then Let's gentlemen go to some Pick of the week as I had to switch over to the thing where I can see the timecode Uh, all right pick of the week So doom, what would you like to share with everybody? Uh, I'm going to shout out Paul Conti radio Free hammerhall who's been on a frequent guest on your show Um, and you know, we're we're all youtubers. We're all pretty good friends. Um, he is relaunching The topic of the week Which is a video series that you used to do vince. Yeah probably a couple years ago Where basically you'd come up with a topic and then other youtubers would jump on board and make a response Uh paul's video this week. I think is like balancing the hobby Um And family life, which is kind of a struggle for some people and it's an interesting topic and I I love the fact that he's pushing this because I pretty much started my channel years ago in responding to these types of topics So I there's a several other youtubers that are you know, hopefully just kind of jump on board of regular responses and It should be good. Um, we're looking forward to this too Nice nice tom. What about yourself? Uh, yeah, I want to talk about um A facebook group this week. Okay Did you download those photos I sent you? No, I don't I don't I didn't know when you if you sent me photos. I didn't catch it Well, that's unfortunate. It's okay. Uh, I will not be able to share these images, but uh So I'm gonna I'm gonna spruke the dark age of sigmar aos 28 group So we've talked about kind of the aos 28 stuff and recent, you know years past. It's kind of a darker kind of grittier take yeah, and um the uh kylan day posted his uh, his tombcast eternal's warband, um, which was a a A tomb kings inspired take on stormcast. Yep, and it is just stunning That's what I'll say.  And so uh, I want to encourage you guys to check out that group and hopefully you can find that post in that, uh In that group so Okay Dark age of sigmar aos 28. Love it. Love it Uh, all right for myself, uh, I'm gonna talk about our good buddy doom and darkness Who had a battle report between? his ogre maun tribes And uh the lumineath So if you want to see all of the reasons I hate lrl sort of fundamentally Wrapped up into a single video because he was playing like a pure eometrical list or something Or not pure uh a largely eometrical list that also happen to have teclis and uh the calathar and the And something else in it. Oh, and of course archers and uh and the sentinels. Um Yeah, anyways, so if you want to see all the reasons I dislike lrl There's a fun battle report that you can watch. Uh, it is an interesting battle report doom has a lot of fun with it There's a particularly great moment that I enjoyed and agree with doom on completely with uh the um Oh my god, the name just flew right out of my head the dumb endless spell dual magic balls light and dark Uh, what am I talking about tom? Why can't I think of the name?  I'm really not getting there. What is it? Gemini, it's gemini. Thank you lord. My brain is melting today Um at any rate, I just I enjoyed you just like Like I can recount all of the rules for the spell. It's 80 points every kind of I could tell everyone in the chat how far it moves Like I've got all of the I can like I can see the entire rules text in my heads And yet could not summon the name for the life of me anyways, yes, gemini. It's so um Thank you everybody who was responding in the chat. So, uh, at any rate, I agree with doom Uh, hashtag I'm with doom on gemini. So at any rate, watch the battle report. It's a lot of fun. I'll link it below. Um, cool Uh, all right So, uh Cool. So that's pick of the week. All right gentlemen, let's talk some hobby time All right, so hobby time, uh Who's what you've been working on man? Uh, uh, so hold on. Hold on. I need to jump back. Somebody mentioned this in the comments and I just missed it Uh, yeah, it dropped this afternoon later this evening. So it didn't make it on the list But um, there was an announcement of the aos world championships that got announced today Um, which was the basically the aos community That was part of the that was running the etc kind of global event has broken away And they're going to be hosting their own set of events much like the 40k did broke away from etc as well So they're managing their own kind of global um international like tournament community and uh, yeah, so that uh, that dropped this week Are those mostly in europe the tournaments or they uh, I think I mean traditionally they have been because it was the european tournament team championship Yeah, and they like this is obviously where the like four and six person sort of style team event type of thing Usually how they run but there's also a single Right and so they're going to be doing Yeah, so they'll they'll have their traditional six person team tournament and they're also doing a singles tournament as well Um, that'll run concurrently. So I think this next one is it going to be in milan is what they announced So I'm going If I was going to italy, it'd be for a very different competition, right? Fair enough Um, so anyways, I needed to mention that as part of the news. No, no, you're totally right. Yeah, I forgot it came up with the Yeah, yeah, yeah I appreciate the news at that point. So i'm sorry everybody. Yep So back to hobby journey back to hobby journey. Yes. All right. Who's what you've been working on hit me hit me with that hobby goodness Yeah, no slinnish demons. I I started basically aos painting slinnish demons and I Decided over a few years. I didn't quite like the paint scheme I decided on so I did the the most horrible thing imaginable given how much unpainted models I have and spent some time kind of repainting an army Kind of getting nowhere, but the army is now finished. I repainted all the you know all the demons I had for slinnish Um, I have some mortals and heathenites on the way Uh, but basically everything I ordered probably will just get shelled. Unfortunately um, but I am painting currently kind of um A few picked mortals from the shadow pain box set and stuff like that. So nice Awesome. Uh, yeah, I mean the health writers have to come back down eventually, right? They can't they can't look at 140 150 points and thinking anybody that's the correct point So that was the one thing that I think shocked me the most because I've never looked at that Well, that's amazing. So 50% pricing priest. Yeah, I don't understand that at all. So what do you think that's a 30 to 40% reduction Something like that. Yeah, at any rate, tom. What do you've been fainting? Um, a little bit of dwarfs Is that uh, is that fine And actually I've been spending a lot of time I in my as my hobby time has been sorting old toys Um, I am Sure, I'm trying I'm trying to clear out space in my basement. That's the best way to say this And like I have a mountain of boxes and um And so I'm trying to get all that moved and so that which will will open up funds potentially for more hobby stuff So there you go I think my parents asked me what they wanted me to do what they what they wanted done with all the like Sort of toys that that I had because they they had a box toys, you know an attic or something When I was a kid and I think my answer was I couldn't care less go donate them to children who will play with them But you know two different paths two different paths I mean, I couldn't really do that with my aircraft carrier Oh, you could donate that there were you make you'd make some kid who's got a who understands and soldier very happy Um or some 38 year old man very happy that's going to be one of the two I mean, I'm going to make a 38 year old man happy and then make a 39 year old man happy too. Sure. Yeah, it's uh, that's This is the nature of the thing Uh, yeah, so for for uh, my hobby time. I finished up mr. Demon here. I'll post him up this weekend So he's all done I kind of hate him but that's all right. Um, I'll talk about it in the post of why I hate him Uh, but so I finished him up and now I'm going to work on this guy Is that from uh creature castor? No, so these are both from the same source So this guy right here This guy is from archvillain games. Uh, who is he's the 3d? 3d printer guy sculptor you can uh subscribe to his patreon and he had a whole demon Uh set he did recently which was good. Uh, I like most of it. This guy is Overdesigned over sculpted like he I want to go to arch and be like you need to wheel that back like Like 80% way over the line Uh on just weird inexplicable textures and stuff Um, but archvillain games. He also did this guy. This is our little uh bird caster here. This one's actually perfect Uh, I am I'm excited to paint this one because this one he did Just the right amount.  Do you want them and I was like, yeah, okay, sure I like cool big demons. So he's he's printing me boats right now. Yeah. Well, there you go Uh really good one and the answer is to why I'm not painting heat nights is because I'm still waiting on my on my shipment So that's yeah, um, it's just no big deal. Like I'm not for those of you that don't know The u.s. Shipments of slanash were seriously delayed because of the storm, right? Yeah So it's fine. Like I I'll probably get it next week or whatever. So, um, Like, you know, I've reached out to myself. I'm supposed to get mine on uh later this weekend. So nice. Oh, you're ahead You're ahead of the game Yeah, um Well, you're closer to the coast. So there you go That's how it works, right? Um But uh, yeah, um These guys but these guys are fun and it's cool. I like painting big demon monsters. So uh, so good times Uh, all right Cool. Well gentlemen Uh, shall we turn to our main topic? Which is fixing The beast of chaos Absolutely.  That's not what we're looking for. This is gonna be a fun show. Here we go Uh, I want to start with the strengths before we get into any fixes I want to talk about the the good stuff of this army the concept of it So I'm gonna I'm gonna rattle some stuff here and I want you guys to to tell me if you think I'm in the right space So beast obviously is an army that has a lot of strong adherents, right? There are people who really really love this army and um The nature of this army pretty classically it's had it has and has had for a while A A strong identity, right? It's like a horde army in the truest sense of the word Um, that also has some elite elements to it. So it can it can play in that way as well it Has this like True sort of embodiment of this weird meld between chaos and destruction and the the ruinous You know end of civilization and all of that, right? They just want to tear everything down Like it's got a cool hook. They have this place as kind of like the quote-unquote first children of chaos right Um, they're like if you read the lore in their book It's really nice the way that they have different creation myths for themselves in age of sigmar Just as just as in the old world too, right? Uh, so like I think beast has a lot of good stuff going on. Um, I do miss some of the weirder beasts from uh From like the the late 80s and stuff. I I know hooves. You're probably a fan This has got to end up in your in in your your project. They were going through the old I mentioned this and in rem like we could go two weeks ago We're going through the old catalog for beasts when they had like the ostrich beast and the frog beast and All these weird different beasts of cast that were just you know human animal hybrids Yeah Bring that stuff back, but eventually they settled on goats right the as being the sort of main thing In cows. It's like all the barnyard animals Sure, I keep dragons. I definitely keep dragons in my barnyard, but yes, um So You know like I think the army has a lot of strong adherents it's got a good identity And actual strengths like it can put bodies on the table like few other armies It's fast for a mostly foot army. It actually has a surprising amount of explosive speed, right? um, it has uh A pretty good like it's sub factions are flavorful the battalions are interesting because you've got the concept of like the marked um Like the marked uh beastmen right the slingor and pestigorean Zangor and all that being a long long long Standing thing right and those are those battalions actually execute on that pretty faithfully And in a way that is actually like a pretty decent battalions And you know, you can wrap up most of an army having a one drop it has most of stuff. You want they're quite flexible um There are definitely some troops here some some items in the army that I think are valuable Although there's a lot we'll talk about that have some challenges. Uh, and I think their summoning is actually one of the best Like summoning mechanics they've made It's sensible. It's logical. You understand what's going on There's a relatively reasonable cost to it and it seems to summon at a pretty nice rate. It's not your strat It's just a supplement, right So like I think that there are a lot of strengths in the overall design of the army I would also point out. I like that they tried to create an identity for each of the types right in where like the What I mean by that is they went the same route as like skaven or Gets or stuff like that where the, you know, the brayer would have a specific ability if they're ambushed That's the thing they're known for right and the Thunder scorn have their whole like we're real fast and lightning charge thing and the The bulgur have their whole, you know, blood gorge thing Right. Yeah. Yeah. Now how successful or good those mechanics are Oh, we can have a different discussion about right But I do like that concept that they tried to like mechanically distinguish that when there's it when they're in this army Each of them has like this thing That they're that is speaking to their nature to their fundamental nature, right? It's one of the reasons I rated this book high on design because I think like Some of the execution is lacking. No doubt about that. This is far from a perfectly designed book Okay, but the ideas here that they put down Are really solid like the sub factions are interesting without being overwhelming. You could still see going normal The concepts of buffing each of the individual types give them all their own identity The battalions are interesting in how they flavor and fundamentally change the army or set you to the chaos gods, right? Like there are concepts here that have a lot of potential I think my summation of this army would be it's the army of a bunch of near misses That all came together to make something that's like so cool so close not quite there Right. Yeah, who's what do you think? I mean that that that that strikes me as just the history of beast of chaos. Sure Like I you know, I I got into this army um Somewhere around 2005 or something like that And there's some armies both in fantasy and even into aos that you can kind of always count on as being half decent um Beast of chaos has always been underwhelming to some extent a cool Art cool aesthetics. Yeah, uh interesting rules But the playability of them follows a little flat. Yeah Uh, I think the the biggest thing for me is like their ambush ability, which to me I I think it should just be ambushing all the time every time, right? And I'm never excited enough by that ability To actually do it like and and doesn't matter what iteration of the rulebook it is It always seems a little flat. Yep But I I I completely agree with basically most your points there Okay. Yeah, right on uh Tom, but any any other things you want to add to the like strengths or summary type of type area Yeah, I don't know what they do well Sure, I mean wounds like lord control. I know it would be those things, right? Yeah, like I'm not trying to be flippant there. It's just the reality of like What's going on, right? Uh Look, they do chaff well the whole army shaft Yes, I mean, yeah, like that's one thing. Yes, they chaff well, they have bodies. They have some mobility But like hammers anvils um magic prayers I don't they don't do that well It feels like they have way too much Variety and choice such that they don't have anything that really works individually at times. Yeah. Yeah. I I agree like there's Let me let me give you an easy example of what I say when like you were that close Okay, but the mist is costly. I'll get like I can sum up this whole book in one artifact You ready? Okay, sure Spoils of the war herds. So this is an artifact specifically for war herd heroes. Obviously you're doom bull, right? That would be the herd stone shard Right away cool idea dig it love it flavorful Okay, uh, and what it allows the You know what it's a buff. It's a buff artifact, which is cool for other things. So, um And it's allowing units to use their their blood greed to activate on a five or six Okay Which is cool. So all right, you got to say well, what is blood greed vince? well blood greed Is a cool ability that the uh, that the bull wars have I'm flipping to it so I can read the exact text Each unmodified wound roll of six for attacks made by this unit inflicts one mortal wound on the target in addition to any normal damage So a standard mortal wound in addition, right good ability Good ability adding in mortal wounds more damage always good. This moves it from a six to a five or six Great ability Right very potent Very cool buff that you can put around your guy around your your doom bull Then we come to the near miss When bulgur units holy within six Enches of the bearer Holy crap Yeah, that is insanity like these guys are on 50 mils Okay, what are we talking about here? Like these are two inch bases and I got to be holy within six Like that is you got to be that doom bull has to literally be On top of those bulgur, right? Which means that he like if one of them makes a charge and one of them doesn't you lost the ability If one of them piles in wrong you lost the ability, right? Yeah So the like it's such a cool artifact almost Right, but it's it's like it has everything so many things in the army have like this one fundamental flaw That that really come up and kick it Right, right And so I think that that artifact really sums up the story of beast of chaos right there It's like yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Good. Uh-huh Right, that's the emotional journey of reading boc rules Right. It's so true. Yep. Um So all right, like but like but I don't want since we're going to talk about fixing a lot of stuff in the show I like to start with the strengths because I don't want people to feel like I'm just bagging on it There there are people who do well with his army. It generally best stats. We recognize does have a You know, not the best record although I will point out on tts It had a pretty high win percentage that was because very few people played it and they happened to do quite well with it So that's what we call non statistical significance. Uh, but hey good for those players My point is people can do well with it, right? But it is an army that clearly requires a lot of play. It has to play you have to play the scenario You have to be like you have to really be a great player already to do Well with it because it's it has a lot of fatal flaws. Okay. Yeah. Yeah Okay Let's talk about the fundamentals. So There we go picture change picture change. Why did my picture get big? It was supposed to be the right size I sized it and then I got messed up. Do you sorry? I gotta fix my picture here. There we go The fundamentals I brought art for this since I've since we didn't do a whole presentation But I still wanted to have fun art pieces for everybody Okay, uh the fundamentals. So I submit to you gentlemen There are four main fundamental challenges with this army And I'm keen on your feedback. Okay. Here we go Fundamental challenge number one base size There are a lot of models on bigger bases than they probably should be or are usable Uh gore and best of gore being on 32s with like one inch reach weapons We'll talk we'll circle back to our gore friends later. Don't worry. I'm gonna I got a lot to say about them. Okay But the but being on 32s is so challenging Right as a as a in the current situation like I want to here's a thought exercise for you tom You know, basically what a best of gore's profile is right like you've got a concept of it like these guys are good Two attacks fours and threes neg one run one damage They can get bonus attacks and they can you know, blah blah blah blah blah They can get plus one to hit and the certain circumstances like they're good. It's a good unit there. Okay But I want you to take best of gore and I want you to in your head put them on 25s Okay, that unit. I would argue that unit is now more than twice as good Just from that switch. I've changed nothing else I think it's true. Right Yeah, like It's true You could like the the sort of smooth brain answer is well now You could fight with twice as many people because they can reach over the top of their friends, right? Right.  Right. And by the way, I hate 25s Like what we what we've struck on as I've said many times. I think 25 should go away I think we should all be forced as a penance to put all our 25 mil troops onto 28s And that would hurt me deep in my soul because I just rebased 300 Scaven on 25 mils and I'd have to remake another 328 mil bases But like the the the fact that They'll never do that because they know we'll we'll literally riot um But the the fact that they're like this are on 32s not even 28s or something Right, which even that would be better. It wouldn't solve the reach problem But at least it would solve kind of some of the how many you can get into a physical space Problem, right?  Yeah. Yeah, that's a huge base to try to uh To try to mitigate. All right, but that's fundamental number one number two bravery Bravery's real challenge in this army. It's very low and you have lots of big units and Uh You know like that's not a great combination I guess is what I would say And it's cool because you have this terrain piece That can make you immune to battle shock But that leads to number three problem in the fundamentals your terrain piece which I argue one of the best terrain pieces in the game For explaining why it's there. We all we all agree with that Yeah Its effect and use is so clearly disjointed from the way the army wants to play It has this tiny aura to start and very slowly expands In an army like so that would suit a castle strategy. Well, right or a slow creep like a zerg strategy, right where you want to creep Just creep just creep. You have to know what you're referencing. Okay. So anyways, it would it would suit that kind of a style But it doesn't this army is like wow screaming lunatics not wow, but you know I mean just like screaming lunatics running across. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah mock ten right And so they just like the army instantly is outside of any kind of concept of that thing The the the only unit that gets to be immune to bravery for the whole game Is your your your ten ungor you've got standing next to the fire your shaman is like Perlin in there to burn bodies to summons. Yeah right So like yeah, that's number three and then finally the last one is just general synergy challenges That holy within on the on that on the herdstone chart. That's not the only thing like that There's a lot of like sort of really rough synergies where a lot of things Like that Right where it's a good ability with a bad activation clause or a good ability With way too short of a holy within bubble, you know something like that, right? Like or it's a good ability, but it also has a ridiculous cost associated to it for like no reason Right. Um when other armies are just getting better stuff without the cost Okay Yeah, so they have a fundamental synergy challenge where like they're just paying so much or it's so hard to get their synergies off When you've got armies like dock running around you're like, uh, we don't even know what to do with all these I've got too many buffs. They just they just come out of here for free Uh, so at any rate, uh, there's my fundamentals. All right, what did I miss there? Or what do you think of anything I said? Who's let me start with you there, buddy this time? Yeah, I mean, I I I think that's pretty much it. Um, the base size is definitely a problem Best to go or like I said, probably one of the better units, but that definitely comes around when you're talking about cores Uh, the larger base. That's definitely a huge liability for them I I would say in general that um There's some war scroll changes that are probably necessary here like there are just some units that Much like the fiend bloods and he tonight's it doesn't really matter what point cost you really put them at they're just Terrible, um, and there's just there's a lot of units in this book that you'll probably just never take and I'm looking at the point values and and Some of them are really cheap and so I could I don't think like reducing them further is is quite the answer necessarily right. Um, there are a few exceptions Uh, um A bulgur's are generally considered overcosted for their point cost, but I I tend to push back on that a little bit because ggw likes to Find what the ideal point cost should be and then tries to kind of make it work And and I think 140 is is where they should be It's just that they're a little underwhelming when it comes to the rules Yeah, so I in general there's a few little tweaks in here, but um, Yeah, yeah And you know somebody mentioned the base size like when I mentioned the base size thing earlier Some in the comments said well couldn't you just make their weapons a two inch reach? I mean, I think for bestigore you probably could it still doesn't solve the fundamental like sort of movement to each challenge Right, you know like one of the reasons that storm vermin are actually good is because they have basically the exact same profile Like it's almost Exactly the same profile Yeah, in fact it it is basically the same profile Except it's on they're on 25 mils And like again go to a two inch reach then you're comparing against storm vermin and it's like well storm vermin are just better Right because I can fight three ranks deep now Right, right when I swing in with 40 storm vermin I'm swinging in with basically all of those storm vermin like in most cases. I'll get at least 30 storm vermin fighting And that's just choppy choppy time Right. Yeah. Yeah So like and and the 32 no matter what even if you solve it by like yes, they can reach over their brothers Which is cool It's still gonna it's still gonna have a challenge of actually just getting enough bodies in because that that difference, right? Yeah So yeah, I agree. Um You know as super said more generally boc have no proper hammer units and no anvils I'm not sure that's I'm not sure that's wrong like I think that they have stuff that can do Damage, I mean, I think of good size block of best of work can do damage But again, they're going to be fundamentally challenged versus other similar hammers by things like the bay size and stuff like that, right? Yeah And that's a real problem. I definitely agree. They have no anvils They're an anvilist army, but I'm not sure that actually matters They kind of they kind of do the traditional body anvil right where they just like you can throw bodies at it Which is fine. Like that's a that is a viable strat But like that's a pretty classic strat of just like I'm gonna flood and you never kill anything of value That works if you then have hammer units to actually hit back with and that's kind of the challenge Tom, what about you? Yeah, I don't know I just struggle with all of it to be honest Um I think that um I think that good general and generalmanship can make up for the holes For the problems Like you can play around it, right? But what I don't think like I just You just there are some things that you just can't get around. Yeah. Yeah Yeah I mean certainly not with this book. Yes. I mean that's what we got to fix, right? So, right, so let's talk about let's let's get into the fixing section here of this How do we fix the fundamentals? This is challenging. Uh, you can you can you can pick whatever you want here? Okay Yep. Yep So I I have a suggestion on how to fix the terrain piece. You ready? Okay okay, um The terrain piece can set up Basically anywhere you want All right. Yeah.  You probably set it up in mostly a center of the board just like the nexus is always set up, right? Right and but you can sort of set it up anywhere and we extend its initial range Okay Out And have it grow faster Okay, I don't know exactly what those numbers are It's probably like 12 and 9 or something You know like so it's going to get big pretty fast because look the game I know we love this idea of like the five turn game. I love these things that escalate over five rounds I think those are all cute, you know, I like I appreciate your blood rights table and your tides and all of that But let's be honest like turn four and five often don't happen in games not never but often right And absolutely coach if it's in the middle of the table It's just all that much closer for my breaker giant to smash that hurt stone into into smithereens but But like if it's in the middle of the board or play, you know, like somewhere where or whatever like kind of where they want Right generically, we'll call it the middle of the board, right? Yep and uh You know You can then fight within this larger aura of it Right like because ideally what you'd probably do is set it like still on your side But back just slightly so on your deployment line in most scenarios You're still like you have people within it like you're on gore there so they can then you know get thrown in or whatever, right? And they're still within and they move up to it And then it gives you like you're fighting where you generally want to be fighting And you're your your thing is having an effect where it needs to be having an effect And I would point out that like the The like neg one armor Effect off of the stone is a really potent effect But it's so often completely pointless because that hurt stone is sequestered somewhere Yeah If you had it set up where it's actually like impacting a majority of the enemy army or some amount of the enemy army where the fighting's happening You're you kind of are getting towards solving the hammer problem as well Because when you knock a pip of armor off of basically the enemy army That's significant Right that's getting around all that stuff that says like oh, I'm immune to neg one rend with a plate of perfect perfection or whatever You know Nope No, you're not like you'd be maybe you didn't anyone read you ain't immune to this right So um like that could be a good way to go Yeah, I like that one Uh, what else do you guys have any other thoughts? What are your thoughts on how we fix some of this stuff? But the hurt stone like what what if you kind of did like an opposite effect where it had like a Larger range but weaker aura that over the turns kind of go More intense more intense, but but maybe not as large Sure. So like maybe turn one. It's not making everything immune to battle shock or something like that It's just like if it had some kind of cumulative effect like it could you know It could start at like it could start at some effect and then grow one turn Two or three and then grow really crazy on turn five So turn three ends up becoming like a high tide type of turn. Yep. Yeah I could see that. Um That that's an interesting idea. Yeah, because you you you do want to be careful like there is a I at the same time this army is so battle shock fragile I don't think I care that much of the whole center of its battle shock immune But I also wouldn't hate it if it was just like Some big bravery bonus or something Right. So there's so like battle shock could still be a thing But like all of the base of chaos when they're within the range become bravery 10 Right or something like that. Sure. Like we can go that direction too, right? That would be fine. Like that maybe that's where it starts and it's not to like the end They just become immune to battle shocks, you know, uh daughters of kain stuff Yeah, um That would still go a long way to where you know, because right now the problem is you'll lose like One or two guys, which is not hard out of a unit and then suddenly you're losing two or three more Yeah um Yeah, you could that's a like as as manzac or who just pointed out, sorry Raymond pointed out It could be that the more you sacrifice into it the better the effect gets right instead of it being necessarily turn based It could just be the amount of people you feed to it I like that. Yeah Is what like if you feed at least this many it now moves from a to b to c, right? It has sort of three different stages of Of effect on the battlefield. I love that idea. That's I like that a lot that nails it right there because yeah, we got there We got there That's definitely the right answer Raymond nailed it Like the more bodies you throw on it the cooler the effect he gets the more potent, right? The more The more immune to battle shock the more rend the more ruinous to everything it becomes Yep Yep. Yep. There we go dig it Dig it but that that doesn't fix the war scrolls No, but I mean we're not fixing the whole army yet. We're fixing the fundamentals, right? This is which isn't really the war scrolls. Don't worry. We're getting to war scrolls in a minute Don't worry. That's coming We got a lot to talk about there right uh And and like to me though, you've got to fix the fundamentals first, right? A lot of times right when you ask people like what they want to fix They're like, I want another attack on my bulgur. I want the hurt stone shard to be, you know, holy within 18 and I'm like That's all fine. Like all that stuff should be done Right, but it doesn't matter the army's still going to be fundamentally flawed if we don't fix these these like You don't just like start building on a new skylight when your foundation's rotting Right, right if the castle's sinking into the swamp start there Okay Yeah um My honest answer is on the base size thing the best thing you can do Is we've got to make the unit rolls fit the base size And so best agor need to be killier Understanding that they're on 32s. So like pound for pound. They should be hitting harder at the same points value Because they're on 32s. Like that's where they actually paid part of their points cost You understand what I'm saying like yeah That's us. That is a cost in there And so they should hit harder and have like a two inch reach and we just go But because we pumped up their offense, right? We put them on like threes and threes all the time or something like that They're they're threes and threes on the charge neg one rend one So, uh, they are Uh, no, they are their normal profile is two attacks force threes neg one one. Okay now if there are, uh If they target an enemy unit With ten or more models not their unit if they target an enemy unit with ten or more models They get plus one to hit Okay, if they attack order units, they get reroll rerolls of one Okay, and they get plus one attack if they charged So they have these three different conditional bonuses, right? Yeah And my argument would be just nicks some of that condition out a conditionality Right and just like make them threes and threes all the time Probably give them the plus one attack all the time, right? Just reattacks a threes neg one and one Keep them basically at the same point cost or a little bit higher. Maybe we bump them like ten points or something like that, you know pretty minimal And uh, then you can give them like their flood and reroll ones to hit against order like that's cool That's a neat flavorful thing. You know, like that's okay. Sure. Yeah, right that just speaks to what they're about Like that's that's one conditional rule. I don't like scrolls that have like three conditional rules, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But if you did something like that right Then Suddenly that unit is actually hitting for the weight. It should be on a 32 mil base That would be my argument, right? Yeah, I I've always looked at Bestagore as being arguably you know and ironic In some ways one of the best units in the game or at least in the books Sorry Because you can stack it a little better than some of the other options that given to you kind of ironic that It does seem a little underwhelming Even even in that context But they they have some upside there, but I I probably agree with you.  Hold on. You mean like slaves of darkness have to do um No, because you're also measuring it for the enemy if you were just gonna say that's like My point is if you were just measuring for the battle shock type stuff If he was if he was affecting the bravery in a big way. Yeah, I'm all for that Right. Yeah, if he's broadcasting an aura of neg one rend Around or you know what I mean like neg one armor saves That gets a little weirder. That's what I would say. So I mean, right Um, I just feel like we can do other things for the beast lord like but don't worry. We're gonna get to the beast lord He's he's coming up.  This is honestly the one that has The the least complexity to it. It's it's fine Take stuff like the herdstone shard and make it holy within 12 or 15 or whatever, right?  Yeah Like take the stuff that is a buff that also has a weird cost to it for no apparent reason when most other armies Just get that buff on a spell or something and just make that the thing Right, like this one's the easiest fix just stop writing in all these weird caveats for no reason, right? It's not like scaven where it's fundamentally functional and then I can choose to like Do this crazy to do it at a higher power but potentially suffer a negative effect, right? That happens on the back side You know scaven or the good version of cost because you're like, okay Do I just do a d3 wounds or do I go for the d6 mortals? But then if I fail I blow myself up Right. I get to make that decision actively and time to time. I can figure out what's right Right. This is like well. Nope. You have to suffer all the cost And then maybe you get the benefit maybe That's my problem, right Cool anything else we want to say on fundamentals before we get to the next section Okay, how would you fix like the ability to ambush because I feel like that's Should be one of the primary components of this army and I think it's just mostly Moving on from the board edge It's probably not always The best it doesn't feel like a true ambush. Yeah, yeah You know, you know, it's packed that much of a punch If you wanted to limit it you could probably just make it goers and I'm goers, but maybe just Always put them In a way that you know, they're able to get into the enemy right away as opposed to what if it was a six inch setup Yeah, it's just something like that. I don't know. That's an interesting hunter Yeah, like the stormcast hunters like yeah, it's a much more reliable charge like they are in you More reliably Yeah, the problem there is that they're already a pretty fast army and they can run in charge And so I feel like it's more on the More on the backboard that they need to help but then on the front line, but So I've got a couple thoughts. I think there's multiple directions You could go with this and I'm not sure I would know which way the right way to go is I thank you herbs bringing that up is a great call out on the ambushing thing so Here's here's my first thing with ambush like let's ambush is another great example of like, oh Almost got it. Right. I actually am not sure that the moving on from the board edge Is a huge problem. Maybe it is maybe it isn't we can talk about it, right? The the problem with the ambush Is that uh At the end of your first movement phase is when you have to set them up, right? And like yes, I know you can manipulate that to the second turn What if they were just like the hunter from ogres that could just show up? Correct. Yeah, that's what I'm looking for the hunter and the cat who just like they just show up on the board anywhere. You anywhere Right, and that's the right answer, right? It would be a true ambush. Yeah, the ambush prize I'm in you exactly like and we can talk about how dark walkers and should I be doing this type of ambush with minotaurs And right and every other crazy thing later But but yes, that's the answer like just talking about this allegiance really specifically in bray heard and bray heard ambush First of all, it shouldn't be into first turn Right, it should it should just be like anything else where you have to come down by the end of turn three or the unit slate Right. Yeah It's the same rule for the ogres and their cat It's the same rule for storm casties and ghosties and everybody else who does this thing Right, because that's what we've all come to as like The fair version of this rule Right. Yeah and And by the way, there's no reason like even thematically or narratively why the ambush would have to happen turn one Right, like they you can lie and wait and ambush for a while so fine and Uh, and then two would be yes, I agree. Just let them be in anywhere this nine inches away Right. Yeah, just show up like the hunter and his cats great Great. Yeah By the way, we can fix gores. I'll tell you I actually I struggled so hard earlier today Trying to figure out how to fix gore I actually did come up with one idea. Okay, so I'll I'll tell you what we'll get to it when we fix gore But I actually think I can make gore interesting in this army Okay, okay We'll see this is a challenge. Can we make gore not just like the most pointless unit in existence? It'll be a miracle. All right Uh, that was a good call. So yeah, that's how I fixed that by the way, all of these allegiance abilities probably need some tweaking Um, yes, like the thunderstorm Shouldn't be rolling a die and then moving that many inches.  They should just like move a flat amount Right in their in their european just They move some amount. I don't know what that number is three inches five inches. I don't care pick a number, right? This should just be that that's what they move, right? And the blood gorge, okay, like the whole the the Uh, minotaur unit.  I understand why blood gorge is there. I understand the classic Yeah, concept of it in in the point of the word, but like that's such a minimal heal On you know, when it often doesn't matter Um I would just rather see them have a completely different ability. Yeah, my answer If they're gonna keep it it should be basically like if they kill Like any amount of models then they basically heal d3 or something like that or as opposed to like an entire unit Yeah, sure Exactly like or you change it to like if they slain models if they've if if a unit of If a unit of war hurt has slain a model then they heal D3 wounds and they gain plus one attack for the rest of the game Sure, right, so it ends up being like the um Like the mega boss's ability right every time he slays a model He's like plus one wound plus one attack. This just this has no end Right something like that Would be the right way to go if you if you want to stick to the like post fighting Type of blood gorge. We sit there and feast on the dead concept, right? Yeah So but I I would accept either one. I would accept either like a We have giant horns and are going to roll into you and trample over you Uh, which I know is already there to some degree. Um within the scrolls, but um Yeah, whatever. Okay, cool Uh anything else fundamentals All right, let's move on here we go We're kicking it off right away gentlemen. We're gonna start with what I call the monster problem There is a monster problem in this book. That monster problem is dem monsters Uh beast of chaos unlike so many other armies actually have a Pretty big selection of monsters they can use, right? This is where all them fun monsters of chaos as we used to know them migrated, right? We've got our jabber sleith and our cockatrice and our cygor and our gorgon and a chimera We've got a chaos giant.  They are beyond help. Please throw those sculpts in the trash Um, they those should be put in the ash bin of history. I'm sorry if you love razor gourds I have no help for you. There will be no help for you in this show. Those things should be gotten rid of um But at any rate, uh The monsters, I mean look the problem here is obvious. We've talked about monsters on this show Many times before right That monsters without a hero are fundamentally the worst unit in the game right out of the gate They have the least board control the least objective controlling power The least presence, right the the lowest wounds to points ratio often Low defense they they fall down really fast in their offensive power, right because they're chart. They chart so hard right, uh So I mean It's a lot of problems Um And w. Soren says said the guy who converted his gorgon into a keeper. I would point out. I do have four gorgon Uh that are actually gorgon and then one gorgon who became a keeper. So I like chaos monsters I have four gorgon and five chimera Two cockatrices like i'm reppin this Okay, I've got a I've got a stake in monsters of chaos I am a buyer son, okay Uh So at any rate We know that's a big problem They wound their wound charts are all horrible. None of them do enough damage They have most of them have really bad synergies like the few of them have some synergy because they actually fall into like You know warhurt or whatever, but a lot of them are just synergy lists with the rest of the army other than a spell or two You know other than a funny skew army of like 16 chimera, uh, you know Sorry not chimera six. That'd be really interesting. Um 16 cockatrices, right? It's like, okay. What yeah Now let's play a real army, right? This is a problem All right Uh, so gentlemen, how do we fix? The monster problem, but what do we do here? Actually, we gotta obviously this means some scroll rewrites Obviously, right Unless you're gonna fundamentally fix all the monsters and the beasts some other way. I'm open to suggestions both mundane and radical So What are you feeling here? They're they're hard to fix. Um, yeah Yeah, I definitely do think some more scroll changes are necessary. Like some of them can hit pretty hard Uh, but they fold like paper. They're they're pretty weak defensively. Like if there's any an army that calls out for A monster mash army like it should be this one where you could just kind of take a whole bunch of monsters and and Has some of them as battle line and kind of just do a monster army, but it's you can't do anything and um Yeah, the individual rules some of these are just atrocious Sure. These are just abysmal Like there is no points value where the cyborg becomes worth it. No, not really. No, it does like one damage um Some I think are pretty cool. I I know when the book first came out you guys were pretty excited for the Chimera. Yeah, I still love him. He's like I love the chimera so much. He just charts so fast Yeah, and that's that's the thing they fold you with s. Uh, he is really cheap though because these are pretty old models Uh, so you can buy them really cheap There's a reason I buy five of them Yeah, no, I I mean, I just think most of these just need a rewrite Um, so that they don't fold quite as fast and and give me a use to put them in I like an army that looks thematic And like having a whole bunch of gores and ungores and Other beastmen and then just one or two random weird monsters. Yeah It's been quite worked for me that much So I I like to see something that is a little more thematic in terms of which is why like a monster mash army build like an actual uh army Build that's just pretty monstrous. I think it's kind of fun. Yeah, but stop there. Yeah Tom what about you? What are your thoughts? I mean, I think the answer is to make monsters more appealing in this army Like honestly, I think that that's the that's the way you do it. Okay. Um And what does that look like? I don't know. Um, maybe you uh, you create monstrous traits Um for those factions like for those all those monsters um, you also add an ability to Um I don't know. Where do we want to go with this? Let's say that you uh, so initially having the traits you just blanket Uh, you blanket remove restrictions on number of monsters in the army Yeah, yeah, I feel pretty good about that Um And then maybe have a sub faction that lets you go like hog wild on monsters Yeah, nice. And you know, so some of these point values need to be probably changed and adjust a little bit Yeah, so I'm gonna I I like where Tom what where where you see is dawn that that I really think is the right answer There is I would love to see the sub factions taken through a more modern lens We'll talk about sub factions at the end after we get through everything We'll kind of wrap up with sub factions now with all of our fixes. How do we build the new sub factions? That's why I actually placed him at the end But I agree completely like having a sub faction that was like thunder lizards and sarapan, right where I'd say We'll take your monsters and we'll we'll put them into overdrive, right? Yes Um, number two would be all these monsters need to start bracketing like turtles Right, um, where they can take a decent like half their wounds or darn near it Before they start going down Yep, right Um, so like that's that that would just solve so many problems on its own right there because then things like the Chimera wouldn't just instantly go to crap because somebody looked at them funny, right? Um number three is we need to like take some of these monsters damages and clearly push them up Like they just don't hit hard enough for what they are and by the way I'd be okay if that also meant a commensurate points increase like a small points increase, but they hit They hit 50 points harder, but go 20 points up That's kind of what i'm talking about there conceptually, right? Because they should be like bully units that are pretty scary and and can get into people and do work, right? Right, they shouldn't be rolling over getting stuck on chaff units of 10 guys But that's what's gonna happen with a lot of this stuff, right? Yeah Um, and then for the gorgon who I think I really think the gorgon is like He's pretty good. He's the emblematic monster of this faction like yeah, okay I know there's people of cygors and stuff, but to me the gorgon is Like the monster of beast of chaos, right if I said what's the what is the Monster associated with beast of chaos. It's the gorgon. Okay. Yeah, so for him. We're gonna do a special chart Okay, and his chart's gonna he has an he has an inverted chart what I mean by that is He starts slightly better than he is now And as he suffers wounds he gets better Just a little bit online He just starts improving the if you don't flatline him He just gets stronger. He gets angrier and he starts just like ripping people apart and punching holes in people Right, so like his chart would just be like an additional attack and more damage or whatever, right? Like his chart would just be all bonuses. So as he charts, he gets scarier I love that. Yeah And that would actually make him Be a really good bully because the the key to bullies is like the key to a good bully unit Is you want people to have to over commit to it, right? You want to send it down one side into an area that's like on a flank or doesn't really matter and You're you're trying to get your enemy to over commit to that piece, right? And having a re inverse chart like that where it gets Angrier and more deadly the the more wounded it gets Means your your enemy has to over commit to it, right?  Yeah, right? yep um That to me says like that's how it would That's how it would stand apart and be different if the other ones were all just tougher You know, they could take like half their wound value You're like so, you know the the cygor and everything else in the chimera They can suffer like six seven wounds before they start charting at all great. Okay Decent, you know, we've solved a lot of the problem if we also then commensurably kind of push them a little bit so That's that's how I solved the monster problem. Um, I think that answers all of it. All right. Good stuff Good stuff guys. All right. We did it. We solved monsters Okay, I missed where the shit was for monsters, but I'll have to get that after the show Uh, all right. So now troops troop challenges All right Uh Let's talk about them troops A lot to talk about in here. Let's talk about This is a horde army and hordes are actually like where hordes are actually pretty bad For reasons we've talked about and beyond They're susceptible to bravery hits. They're on big bases Hordes generally are sus when they're, you know, like low bravery and this kind of stuff um gore Pointless they're one of the most pointless scrolls. I've ever seen they have no goal. No purpose Uh, bull gore don't hit hard enough and are hard to manage and dragon ogres are like on way too big a basis for what they're trying to do Which is be like bad pigs and The all of the zan stuff like insert zan whatever here, right? So your entire zan section of this book like all the zan things i'm flipping through right um need to like Figure out what they're doing in this army Yes, and they need to have a purpose. They need to stop paying the price for zinches nonsense Right, that's that's the problem These poor guys keep paying for the fact that they're just better in zinch Yeah, okay, and even that even there they're not that good by the buy So, you know challenging um Okay So let's talk about how we fix some stuff here gentlemen. Like I said, I've let me I'll do gore, but I'll save that When it comes to the regular troops Uh, what do you got? What do you got for fixes or thoughts tom? You want to start us off here on this one?  You're talking about on gore raiders Probably what everybody in this audience thinks is the most useful unit in the book Yeah, okay, you're right. Okay, right because let me just point out that like you can say they're useful Yeah, like I understand the desire to like espouse their usefulness Mm-hmm, but the reality is is that like You remember those bliss bar of archers? Sure that we talked about last week. Yeah um And how everybody was saying that they were like bad Uh, I do remember that. Yeah, it was it was quite a conversation. Yes raiders shooting is worse than them Yeah, sure, but the argument Okay, but that's a false like I get where you're going But that's a false parallel like you don't buy on gore raiders only for the shooting And I would also point out that bliss barbs are 160 points as opposed to on gore raiders being 80 points for the same number I don't care. I don't care if you're getting I don't care if you're getting double the number of shots Okay, doesn't matter which you're not by the way um No, it's the it's the same you would get literally the same number of shots If you if I bought them like you'd have 10 more wounds, but the same number of right Yeah Yeah, I just uh What I'm saying is is I think like usable shooting In this army would be really interesting. Okay I like that's what has my that's what has my attention coming out strong coming out strong. All right So let's talk so obviously they have both the pregame move and the and or they can ambush This is generally why you take them right usually a pregame. Okay. They're a pregame screen, which is great Uh, we all agree that pregame moves are cool. So no issue there, right? They don't need to lose that May I may I suggest some options here?  No random damage reroll ones and twos right to hit decently enough, right? Mm-hmm Uh, I think their flaws they have no ability to become battle line Agreed when they're clearly like basic engor that my old count should have some way to just be your battle line dudes. Yeah, yeah Yeah, right that I think that alone would go a long way Let me pitch to you. I'm just really curious sure like here Let me pitch to you engor raiders that are 10 points cheaper and our battle line In a in a beast of gas army. They'd be an awesome man All right, like doesn't that feel like okay 70 points for that that feels like a good unit, right? Still has the pregame move or could ambush remember it's using our new better ambush now Right, right that because we we fixed ambush already. So now I'm just cascading these changes, right? Right, that suddenly feels like okay. Yeah, that unit's got some play as my battle line Like I could see that because I can I can put them in the list and be like well If I want to ambush with them like an ambush. I'm filling my battle line stuff up And if I but if I need to pregame move I can pregame move, right? So like it gives me quite a bit of flexibility in how I use my my battle line, right? So you can either make them 70 points for for 10 or you could give them a big fat hoard discount I'd kind of just prefer to make them cheaper for 10, but either way works Yeah, yeah, okay. All right Let me tell you guys here. Are you ready? Here we go. Let's fix it all Everybody needs a roll. The problem with this army right now is rolls Tell you what we're going to do. We're going to take all of these individual units We're going to give them all a roll and they're all going to do something. So here we go All right roll number one. What are angora? Angora chaff no question. They serve that roll perfectly.  They're perfect. They're one of the best units in the book They are battle line a plus always never change on gore. You little pop belly adorable dudes a plus work All the way home. Okay, great. They're done Angora Raiders, we just fixed them. What's their role? They're your versatile screen, right? They can ambush for shots or they can pre-screen or whatever, right? And if they're battle line, then that's cool. That gives you some more flexibility in other ways Okay, and we made them a little cheaper All right, bulgur hammer They're a hammer. We talked earlier about how we need a hammer, right? Yeah, we have two hammers now in this army best agor, which we already fixed earlier Right, right and bulgur. Okay Yep, so bulgur are a hammer and Uh, give me one second Um, okay, so bulgur are Are become your hammer what we're going to do is we're going to take their scrolls and we're just going to ramp it up Right. I mean it's it's that simple like yep We're going to give them better stats not fours to hit We're going to put them on threes to hit and threes to wound We don't we're going to give them an actual two inch reach Right with their giant axes Like as somebody pointed out earlier today, the axe head is bigger than an inch long Okay The literal head of the axe is bigger than an inch Yeah, the one inch is ridiculous on those guys Like how how does it even mathematically work that they can't reach two inches when if they just went like this It would be they they're just if it falls forward. They're farther than an inch out Right So um So and then if we combined it with like a blood greed that was good or sorry blood gorge. I apologize blood gorge It was good right where it like um either added bonus attacks on after party or Gave them impact hits on the way and either one of those things is going to make them into a hammer, right? Okay, that's them fixed. They're good Uh dragon ogres Okay, stop being bad pigs and pretending like you're anything else. Let's make these guys an anvil Okay, because they are they're just bad pigs right now. They're pigs without any of this energy Okay, like you you'll never be pigs. Don't try Okay, uh, so we're just going to make these guys into an anvil We're going to take dragon ogres. We're gonna give them the same thing And they're going to be a mobile anvil Which I think is really useful in his army because they're going to keep that thunder scorn Move every turn in the hero phase blah blah blah blah, right? And they're pretty fast at eight inches or whatever and what we're actually just trying to do is run places and receive charges Right like be able to sit there and take it. So we're going to take dragon ogres. We're going to put them up to six wounds from five Okay, and we're going to put them on a three up save Yeah Right and damage wise we're changing nothing. They still hit like how they hit Yeah, I like it, which is not good But that's fine. That's okay. It's not their point their point isn't to do damage, right? So like they're they just like we kind of hit you with our weapons, but our point is not to die Right and when if the unit suddenly had 18 wounds And was on a three up save that would actually go a huge distance in making it tougher And they'd be fast enough to get out there and basically catch catch up the enemies, right? um And and there you go like that's Done and dusted we now have distinct roles for all of the major sort of traditional beasts units right and like You would then when you're building your army you would actually be filling like the roles armies get filled with right You wouldn't be going like well I could take these guys who do this role or these other guys who do this role a little worse Or the other guys who do the same role, but even worse than that Which is the situation they're in right now Right because too many of these roles are just written to be the exact same thing It'd be like mildly damage aggressive guys running forward Yeah Cool. Yeah, I like it a lot actually Yeah, awesome.  Yeah, they can just they can just exist It's not a priority to me right because like if they're whatever whatever it's fine Should chariots do impact hits sure probably Right like great That's the least of the armies were the warriors right now Exactly like the ancillary stuff is all fun. If the right if the if the foundation of the army works, which is everything I just mentioned Yeah, and those are basically all the models that Need a brand new model too. I thought those are kind of all the old kits that are kind of still kind of I think mostly resin outdated Yep, it seems that I'm just awkward now. I didn't fix gores. So Let's go back to that. So I filled all the roles Right. Yeah, and I still didn't touch gores. So the question is What are we doing with gore the gore? You get rid of them. There's too many troops anyways. No, no, it's fine. We can we can keep gore. Okay All right. Here's what gore are gonna do Okay gore Are going to be your ambush masters Okay, this is their purpose I like it. So What gore's purpose are Are basically as mainline troops. We just don't need them and we like there's no place We're gonna put them in worse than bestigore, but better than on gore.  Okay So especially when it comes to like getting into shooting units backfielding people threatening back objectives stuff like that Okay So here's here's how here's what gore are gonna do Gore are they're gonna have an ability called like masters of the ambush Okay, or something like that and On the turn gores come off the the board You know get get set up using their Ambushing bray herd ability or whatever right they get plus three to charge And plus one attack Okay now Does that make them able to go in and just like absolutely destroy units? No Absolutely not Not even close But i'm gonna keep their points cost relatively the same right and So by making them these like ambush masters They're the the gore the things like around in the woods The these little you know bdi's in the woods ready to swoop in and surround you If everybody else is doing the role a couple units of gore ready to like sweep in land Basically like putting them on a six inch charge Right when they come in having a decentish number of attacks even though it's on bad numbers, right? Yeah um We'll allow them to like get in Tie up backfield units. You know basically put pressure on Right threaten back objectives stuff like that Right. Yeah, and and manzac. I think I made best to gore elite when I put them at like three attacks on threes and threes Uh Neg one one damage. So like yeah, I mean I I agree. They should be elite which I I think I made them into right So and and only moved them up like 10 points like you know, so that's that would be my ultimate build for them Uh Now everybody has a purpose. I think that's the best you can do with gore Maybe as somebody else has like You know a better ability or a better idea, but I think that would make sense for them then like, okay, they're doing something Right. Yep. No, I totally agree. You know when it comes to the army, I've always associated gore as being like one of the main components like in in terms of what the army should appear like on the table and uh, they've always just been so underwhelming ever since The age of sigma really but Yeah, I mean even before they really do lack that that role that they just don't have the Capacity to kill anything they take up room in the front of your army. Yeah, no I completely agree the ability to kind of make the man bush and make them Have some sort of threat in that back quarter would be nice Sure. Yeah And and you know Colin says well, they'll still suffer from retaliation I don't disagree, right? Like we can play with whatever bravery change we need there or something Yes, maybe there's a step toward that, but at least you control the engagement, right? You can take unit at ten you can come in you can clip somebody you can clip a A catapult or something like that an obr, right? Shut it down You can get into a shooting unit that has no melee power and now they can only target the gore The point is like, yeah, they're there to die, right? But you're using them to that's why I'm keeping them cheap so they can like I haven't moved them off their 70 points or whatever, right? But they're then there to like tie up units cause a problem and get in the way of your enemy's battle plans Right, suddenly they can't move unless they retreat or you know, whatever, right? There's lots of stuff that can that's a very useful unit at that point Even if it's not showing up and actually exploding what it hits It's a finesse unit to use. I don't disagree, but I think it's I think it's actually a really useful unit Mm-hmm So Yeah, that's my thoughts Okay, have we fixed troops anything else gentlemen? You want to stay on troops? No, I think it looks good. Cool All right, amazing army now. We've we've we're doing it. We're moving along All right, so next up, uh, what do you do? Okay, next up leaders got some leader questions uh Okay, so uh leader questions There are some challenges to the leaders in this book namely that they die really easy. Um It's an understatement Yeah So now there are some good ones too here I think like the doom bull in its current form at its current price point Is like it's not bad. You know, he's fine. He's okay. That's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. He's pretty good Could he have like should he have like one more attack with this slaughter? I mean, he's no slanish hero. Yeah, sure A hundred point. Wait a minute. Hold on a hundred points for an eight wound hero with a seven inch move and a four up Save that has neg two rend and three damage. How much is that 220 points? Yeah, it's gotta be them slanish numbers Yeah, yeah, so like a hundred points. Should he have one more attack?  Just because he's still kind of swingy But then I'd feel fine about him like that like dude's cool for a hundred points. It's a good hero. Yeah Yeah, okay, but the beast lord is just like he's weak He has one of the worst command abilities that's ever been committed to ink in the history of oh, yeah Command abilities. I think I've managed to get that off like once Yeah, it's it's insane. Um I would actually say the braisham and stands out as like a pretty decent Uh, hero like the standouts to me are the braisham and the doom bull, uh, and then Probably the zangor shaman right behind them, right? Who's also pretty useful I think where we've got opportunity really the beast lord is the most offensive one But then I would also argue the shagoth is kind of like, okay Well, I'm overpaying for this monster caster, right? He's not doing enough different Uh to sort of justify his Existence right like yeah, okay. He's got 10 wounds. That's cool. That's not bad. Don't get me wrong Right, I it like but there's still probably needs some work there Yep, um So what do you guys think about the leader situation? I mean other than just fix the beast lord Uh, command ability so he has like a real command ability Okay, but do we need to do more with him? Does he need to be more like does he need to be more than a claw lord? I mean that's what a claw lord is right a claw lord is the same guy It's the same frame almost to the t. It's the same frame as the beast Right.  Yes So like if we just Gave this guy a real command ability Is that fine? I I think so when you compare it to skaven you can do all sorts of weird things With that character that you can't do with the beast lord like there's all sorts of weird abilities You can potentially use it. You can shurry away.  Yeah, sure sure So I you know, maybe he needs to be slightly more killy, you know Probably increases damage to two um, and then probably give him just a decent command ability that can actually do something and because I I like the flavor of it It's just it's too limited in terms of its actual ability Yep, yep agreed Tom, what do you think about this guy? How do you how do you fix this guy? I don't know. He's fine I I don't know honestly. All right. Let me pitch something at you tom. Let me tell you if if you like this Yeah, let's let's put him up one more wound. Okay. Let's give him six wounds I know it doesn't sound like a huge change, but it makes him catapult proof Okay, like I'm always like that catapult is such a huge deal, right? Yep Yeah, um, so he can like he can survive a catapult rock, right? Yep And uh, let's make his command ability Uh I'll give you a couple options. Here's option one. Let's give him the same plus one attack like the clawler Solid reliable command ability vampires are doing it. Skaven are doing it Why not visa chaos too? Okay. Let's just give him a good old plus one attack command ability. Just activate it done Here's option two Retreat and charge I like it very mobile very skirmishy Oh wait on who? Like a unit he picks a unit and makes them retreat and charge. Okay. The doom bowl does no the beast lord Oh beast lord. I'm sorry. Yeah the beast lord Yep, so that's that's command ability to second right retreat and charge Okay, like they these don't seem like a retreating army No, that's fine. I'm like I could see it. They're very skirmishy So maybe like they they seem like they're running around like lunatics So, I mean, I don't necessarily think of the blood murder obsessed daughters of kane as a retreaty army either But they have a whole sub faction literally dedicated to it. So I mean, yeah, because they're like tricksy and stuff Oh, I just wonder I just wonder if the right answer isn't to give them something like the um the magma droth Charging ability that like lets you roll dice For every like like kind of like the ogre charge Yeah to a unit Okay, so it's sort of like a designating charge or something. Yeah, like a um Like crashing through the underbrush or something And let them like have a like a charging on mortal wounds to any unit Uh, and then it's you know for every point of for every like point of your charge You get um, you get uh, you roll dice on a four up does a mortal okay Like that seems like that's Like right in the kind of wheelhouse, right? Sure, like the concept that they they're literally just ripping and ruining as they as they get into like that You could call it ripping ruin That's a good Yeah, I like it sure. Yeah I think any of these would work by the way like because he would be useful Like anything we mentioned he there'd be some kind of angle that would let him play Yeah, yeah, right So like in his current uh current command ability If he kills any models you get to re-roll wounds if he kills a hero They get to re-roll both hits and wounds for and it has a pretty good range Like the 18 inch range for gray herd units is pretty decent. Sure You need to at very minimum remove like the hero or monster thing because he's just not going to be able to do that Sure, like this current iteration. Yeah, like the easiest answer would just be literally give him a command ability It says pick a unit they get to re-roll hits and wounds. Yeah, and then he'd be pretty good Right like he'd definitely be something I take. Yes Uh, so like, you know, that's that seems fine Uh But you know all of these I could see being functional right, um And and I think all of them could have play What do we do with the the shagoth? Does he just need to like be more of a presence like Make him more of a melee presence. So first of all, let's assume he's like a dragon ogre now So he's got a three up save Do we just like Do we just maybe add a little bit of damage to him? So he's actually like this sort of melee cast or hybrid Those aren't generally very successful Right, but Could be Yeah, I I think if he increased the save maybe dropped him a slightly in points He'd be pretty decent like he's he's not far off the mark. He's he's a you know He obviously needs a Um, the model is pretty old. He needs a brandy sculpt sure other than that. He's he's doing pretty good Yeah, I mean my love would be if we gave him like put him to a three up save And actually upped his damage. So he's some kind of threat like us because he's like a non monster monster, right? I mean, I understand he has the monster keyword, but he doesn't have a chart, right? Yeah But in my mind, I'm still thinking of like colex son eater or whatever, you know, these kind of like the dudes were scary Yeah, this is like a real threat So he's like slightly tougher through the save and he can also put melee pressure on units on by his by himself Okay. Yeah So like maybe that's giving him another some more damage with a weapon or something Maybe that's giving him some more ren maybe that's just adding to his attacks. Maybe it's all of it Right. Yeah, but if you haven't be a sort of melee in the thick of it wizard That actually then opens up a lot of different potential as well because this army Like beast lords Seem like they want to get in combat, but it's not It's not the best idea.  Yes.  So Yeah, he's got a little baby tail. It's not that big Okay, so yeah, I mean, I think that would be that'd be fun anything else on leaders we need to address No, I think as you pointed out the shaman's pretty good like a Half decent spell you mostly Take him for the fact that you can A move a little faster. Yeah. Yeah good movement buff like devolve is not a bad spell No, he's fine Like, yeah, I I'm okay with the great brave shaman. Like he's cool. Yeah. Yeah, they're pretty good. Yeah So, uh Yeah, okay, cool Good that's all like I think if you have those two things where like the beast lord is sort of the behind the lines Hero who has a good buff who can buff his troops, right? The shaman is like the standard, you know midboard caster The shagoth and the doom bull are both kind of in the mix in some way with one being more damaging and one being more Anvil probably There you go. That's a nice You know, we've got a good suite of of options there right Okay, so last topic Let's so now that we fixed everything. Let's now wrap it all up in our sub factions and support, right? How do we put this all together in the sub factions? And support. All right so, uh Obviously we have our three existing, you know factions all her dark walkers and gavspawn Um, I would argue that we need to probably have a fourth Okay Yeah, and it needs to be monster based and it needs to be the monster based one. Yep I agree So make a fourth one that's all about like the monsters of chaos going on a rampage, right? Give us are the thunder lizards equivalent here. Yes, absolutely Um, and then you know, every one of these is like again I like all three of these But all and I like that I still I don't feel like I have to take one of them But at the same time all of them have things that I'm like, oh that could be useful Right, so I'll give you an easy example Let's talk about dominator, which is the command trade for all herd. Okay You can reroll charge rolls made for friendly all herd units wholly within 18 inches of this general Okay, that's cool command trade big bubble Rerolling charge rolls for everything not a specific type The only problem is I didn't finish reading the sentence Okay The rest of the sentence is if this general is within three inches of any enemy units. Oh, come on Okay So I've got to have my heroes none of whom are like, I mean other than the doom bull who still doesn't last very long in combat already to be rolling these charges like Just yeah, that's brutal brutal Right like some of these can be fixed just with as I as we mentioned earlier just cut out the nonsense Right Like just make the sentence end where I ended the first time done Yep, right and we've got a perfectly serviceable command trade. All right The command ability in this which is booming roar like you you spend a command point and you receive one primordial call point The problem with that one is that's not a fair trade You're you're a generally command point starved army and one cp just sorry one primordial call point One pcp is not worth a cp. Yeah, right, right that needs to be changed to like d3 at minimum or something in that regard, right? Kind of the same as when you throw bodies on the on the herdstone, right? Then maybe it'd be worth it because then it'd be a cool. Okay. So I got it all heard a sort of the summoning engine one I understand what's going on here. I'm trying to get you know bodies on the on the floor And then I have the real charges thing. So when people show up I can make them Uh, I can make them, you know charge appropriately and so on and so forth, right? Yeah, yeah Like there'd be a concept here. Uh, I will point out that all herds like General ability feels like it's going the right direction and then again left turns into terrible Uh, subtract one from battle shock rolls made for all herd units in the battle shock phase If they were picked to fight in the same combat phase of the same turn Like wow Wow Wow Poor all heard Like no no guys. That's just not that's not nobility. That's nothing Thanks, I hate it like that's what is that? Like if you're like it'd be neat to have uh all heard be the summoning We're pretty good with battle shock because we're all about a lot of bodies Uh Thing right? But but this ability is nothing So so give them a real trait. Thank you. Please and thank you Okay, like if it's going to be the summoning one Just give them plus one to charge Make make the generic thing plus one to charge That's that's the most boring way I could think of probably five other more interesting rules But my point is that's the floor Okay That's where we start we get you got to be at least this tall to ride this ride Okay And or or or make the ability battle shock reducing in a real way So that that way you don't feel bad about spending the cp on the summoning, right? So you can kind of go the other direction around Yeah, make it so that all all herd units get like You know plus three to bravery or something. I don't know whatever you like do something The numbers are so low here that even something like plus three is not a big deal Right or you know, whatever Then you don't feel bad about burning the the The bodies burning your cp. Sorry to get to get more uh call points, right? So There you go All right dark walkers is obviously you're like everybody can ambush one Right um, I'm not sure you wouldn't need to change that if we ramp up the the the The ambushing to be like Just drop anywhere you want up to turn three Might be problematic might not I don't know um It's pretty limited as it is like You know storm cast can drop evocators and all sorts of nasty stuff anytime they want I don't see them rock on the top tables because of it. So Maybe it just doesn't matter. Maybe it's just fine.  They're like this once a game thing You get to do this very particular thing and then also on a roll and then also random mortal wounds Like oh boy, that's a lot of caveats on that, right? Yeah, yep Uh, if you're like and their command ability is such a cool idea of the teleport But it's just it just doesn't work again just brutal. Yeah Just make it look like the calibrant ability if that's what we're gonna do or or like the what the dread harrow does or You know, whatever, right? Yep That's the right answer for them. So you got beasts just running all over disappearing into shadows and then reappearing in other places, right? Yeah, like in like in the spooky videos Yep So there you go. Uh, and then the last one my personal favorite, uh, honestly I think I think you and I hooves are simpatico on this one. I'm a gasp on man. You a gasp on man. I am. Yes I like this a lot. Yes um the like Gav spawn is cool. I don't want its main ability to change where it like turns your heroes into chaos spawn I think that's fantastic It's actually really cool what it does to your calculation on little heroes like beast lords because you're like, well As as you mentioned like well 90 points for a beast lord And it's okay, but 90 points for a beast lord and a spawn that just gets to appear Yep. Yeah. No, it's pretty sweet. That's okay Right the weird thing here, too Is I think people put spawn in their army and I I would tend to Take more characters and be willing to have those just basically die On the board where you need them to so that the spawn can pop and then you Can move in with the extra attacks, but Yeah, no, I this is a pretty decent one For sure. It is this has been my favorite for a long time. I think there's stuff that needs to be different like, um The Like the progenitor of devolution devolution thing whatever whoever you say that Where you can, you know get plus one to attacks love the command ability Not sure about the The nature of like trying to organize this Isosceles triangle between your unit and your hero and the spawn or whatever I guess yeah, I can kind of be anywhere. It's only really they need to be near the um The spawn but like The fact that you've got I should say the fact that you've got three units in the mix Like obviously they only have to be holy within 12 of the spawn, but Um My thought is the bubble should probably be a little Bigger on what that is like holy within 15 would feel better than holy within 12 honestly Make it a little easier to get off for sure. Yeah, and I'm not sure it should be like super stacking I would honestly limit it to like you can only put it on a unit once like I would get rid of the stacking I just don't think things like this should stack Right, I just don't But I think you could you build up then the rest of the the sub faction Like I know that's gonna hurt people because I love this. I love exploiting this. I love building up like three or four command points And just like bam, bam, bam, bam. Just hitting the button because it's cool But it's it's like it's just not a great thing. I kind of Lead you to over commit in certain ways When you know what it should be doing is like just trapped at one and the rest of the sub faction should be better Right. Yep. Yep. Yep like I would limit that back and then up things like the The um, I would get rid of the unraveling or honestly in gavspawn And if it's going to be the magic one then make it a magic one like make it do something real Like give you, you know plus one to cast and yada yada yada or whatever, right? Um, and and you know additional spells and unbinds in a real way Okay Or just make it something different like Make it something to do with the general theme of this thing right, so Uh Like make it so if they if your wizard ever kills somebody With you know in any way if the wizard ever kills a model in any way Then they become a spawn or something or roll a die on a four if they become a spawn So that the little bray shaman could literally just like arcane bull to one wound dude and then Pop a spawn into their into the middle of their unit Right. Yep. One then cool that unit's tied up to that now a spawn That can then be like they're tripping the the command ability. Yeah, absolutely, right? And so, um You know that's like that would be a really doubly interestingly useful ability That would be very unique and play into the sort of spawn centric nature of this which is a cool angle Right because chaos spawn have this like For the rest of chaos spawn are a punishment kind of the worst possible outcome for Beastman it's like a It's like a desired end state as it were right. It's a it's a reward Um And so to me that just feels like a really good play Right, like that would be a neat thing like if they every time they at the end of whatever phase if they've slain a model Roll a die on a four of one of the slain models becomes a cast one. Cool. Good. Yeah Something like that. I'm pretty sure they've had those Abilities in the past too. So yeah, sure.  Um, the chaos to be turning people into spawn So I just think that'd be neat. Uh, and who doesn't love chaos spawn. They're just fun and weird, right? So great All right gentlemen Anything else we need to say about beasts. I mean, I tell you I think I'm hopeful we see a new book I'm hopeful we see, you know in the realistic terms I hope that some of these things we've talked about like war scroll changes These could happen in broken realms Right. There's no reason that we couldn't see some of this stuff in broken realms And I I can't wait to see what they do with beasts So I hope they realize they've got a A real golden opportunity here with beasts for an army A lot of people love and want to play To do the same thing they did with idk like idk was already a strong overperforming army And they still gave it a bunch of new improved scrolls to balance out the internal part of the army This is an army people love that's underperforming. It needs the scroll treatment. Let's do it Yeah, this is an army that just needs a place In the actual story like I think when you read a lot of stories What's going on in alas it's very much like scavener like Beastmen are just being killed all the time in stories They're never actually the ones, you know that that are there to butcher the opponent I would argue that one of their biggest weaknesses right now just in terms of the narrative is All their really cool heroes were kind of butchered and kind of killed off in end times They had two or three that had some some really cool kind of backstory And they they need a new character model that is like the threat for beastmen Some kind of like special character or two that really like stand out in some way. Yeah, I agree Yeah, a hundred percent agree like beasts are so right for interesting special characters Like leave the old ones that die dead They don't need to come back, but give us somebody new and cool and go that direction. Yeah, okay So there you go. Um Oh, uh jeff asked what about battalions. I think the battalions would be fine Like take the same battalions like you need to other than the fixes I already talked about like some of the things We already tangentially mentioned them weird synergy things are tight holy within those would have all gotten improved in the fundamentals things So I've met that for battalions as well because some of those have like really short range bonuses or stuff like that so doesn't matter right and Just like if those are fixed and you left the battalions as they were with all of these fixed units and rules I think the battalions would be fine. I think the battalions are almost a strength exempting those weird Tough synergies. So There you go Okay, cool Well gentlemen, there we go. We fixed beasts of chaos. It's now a fun army. We can only hope the gw does the same So if you're watching gdoves This is here for you as a resource. All this is open source content Feel free to borrow any of these ideas you like and go ahead and throw those into a book If you have my complete and total permission for that, so There you go for all of you out there watching. Hey, thank you so much for that. We really appreciate you made it through this This is a really fun one Hit like if you if you haven't already that like button helps other people find the show It's great. That's all we need to do and it's just a little slight move your mouse from here to here And then boom or maybe just touch your phone or something like that It's so easy. Subscribe if you haven't already all that kind of fun stuff hoops Thank you for being here brother Not a problem If you don't know hoops check out his channel I'll link his channel down in the description below as well a lot of fun videos Hoops explores the really interesting aspects of aos and language and stuff like that. You make some of my favorite videos I always look forward to a hoops video. So check them out As to all of you as I said, thank you so much for watching and as always We'll see you next wednesday