Welcome to Breeders Syndicate, where we explore the history of a clandestine scene through the eyes of the folks who lived it. I'm Matthew, owner of Riot Seeds. I'll occasionally be joined by my co-host, NotsoDog, breeder and grower from Mendocina. Welcome to the Underground. Hey, what's up everyone? Welcome to Breeders Syndicate. I'm Matthew. This is my fellow host, NotsoDog. Good evening, everyone. We are here for another weekend of fun fact-filled journeys in strain history. So tonight we were thinking about covering something that we don't normally talk about a whole hell of a lot as far as like getting deep into the details of cookies. Since it's a modern line, you know, like we try to spend our time on older lines for the most part, a lot of the baselines, but cookies I feel has become somewhat of a baseline now for better or for worse. What do you think on that? I agree with you. Matt and I certainly picked, you know, starting his history a long time ago simply because there was way less people to get pissed and complain about what we were talking about. And you know, it's also one of those things that it's probably not well known by a lot of people, you know, and there's a lot of disparate facts and little bits and pieces that you gather up. And so we've been slowly working our way towards more modern stuff. And you know, cookies is obviously and like that whole family that it spawned is a big part of cannabis these days. And it's, you know, it's a lot more delicate because cookies is also like, you know, intending on being a global brand. And there's a lot of business and money behind it.  You know. So there's a lot of different angles we could attack it from and we'll we'll pick some of them and go from there. I was thinking like, let's start with a quick discussion on the culture in 2009, roughly when cookies was starting to gain its foothold, you know. What kind of stuff was going on in NorCal, the Bay area when cookies was blowing up? It was a little bit during the purple craze and all that. Yeah. Or was it slightly? No, I think it was later. Okay. I think it was, I think it was later.  What would you consider the start of like, I heard about this thin mint cut? I didn't start hearing about it until 2010, right around then. Okay.  Right? Yeah. So, you know, at that time, I still lived in the same area that I do now, I still lived in Mendocino County. So the Bay is only where all this kind of begins is like only a couple of two and a half hour south of us for the most part. Okay. And the two things are pretty tightly related in a lot of ways. There was a lot of back and forth in the cannabis scenes between the Bay area and Mendo and Humboldt especially. Right? Yeah. And I would say, honestly, probably in the 2009, 2008, 2009, 2010 era, I would say that era for the both the Bay and Mendocino County was, you know, it was still significantly a gas era. Yeah. I would say that the the diesels and the headbands and the cushions especially were all in high demand, getting good pricing, right? And lots and lots of people were growing them. And that was sort of like the bread and butter, if you were. Okay. That's kind of like, I mean, it's obviously there's way more to it than that is. But in terms of like, what was the big dynamic back then?  Right. And the LA, San Diego, you know, SoCal area, there was a big oval in California. The Bay was sort of a meeting ground in the middle, you know, and stuff like that.  The Bay was where a lot of all the NorCal weed flowed into, you know, and all that. And so a lot of the people in the Bay were hustlers, even if they were, you know, there was warehouses and stuff like that here or there, but like land places were expensive and it was the city and it wasn't as easy to be, you know, the way you could be say in Humboldt or Mendo or somewhere a little bit more rural. Yeah, certainly. So who are some of the players in the early cookie scene? Do we want to go over that at all or?  Yeah, obviously. And then there's a few people that aren't particularly as well known. Yeah.  Because all these players are still active and around. And I'm sure they have their own take on it and their own version of it, you know. And so they'd probably also be quick to point out any kind of small discrepancies that might pop up as well to try to like discredit the whole thing or whatever. So, you know, because cookies is not just it's not like talking about a lot of the other strains in cannabis cookies is like the one that formed a brand, you know, it was like it was like the first modern cannabis brand in that regard and, you know, in the cookie stores and fame. And it happened at like, you know, we could maybe talk about like where cannabis was at when it popped up. Yeah, that's what I was talking about. The culture, the culture. So, I mean, as far as as far as my neck of the woods in Northern California, it was the green rush was massively on in my area. 2008, 2009, 2010 were booming times for indoor light depth, full outdoor of all kinds of things all over my neck of the woods. What's the indoor indoor pound rate circa 2008, 2009? I mean, like for high quality, the the prices people would have been seeing for quality, OG cushion door. Like you could you I mean, you could get I could get 4200 like in my neighborhood. Yeah, exactly.  You know, there was a lot of there was a lot of game back then where people from Southern California, their entire career was like coming up to my neck of the woods, buying things at that and going down to dispensaries in the southern part of the state and, you know, giving them to them those dispensaries for a three four hundred dollar margin, five hundred dollar margin.  Depths were big then there was still droughts back then. So, you know, depth commanded good pricing. You did you did things well. And it was one of it was definitely a gas era. I mean, not that there wasn't lots of things being grown, but there was an enormous demand for both kush and diesels of various kinds. Yeah, so all kinds of permutations of those got grown quite a bit because they because a lot of the people coming up. And then, you know, if if you wanted to leave your area, the vast majority of people that would leave Sonoma County or Mendo or Humboldt or wherever, if they wanted to go somewhere and hustle their stuff, they generally went to the bay. Yeah, well, that was San Francisco or the East Bay in Oakland, somewhere right around there. And the bay was sort of like a collection ground for everybody from SoCal coming up, but they didn't want to go all the way up into the hills. I mean, there was people from all over in the bay looking to get. It was sort of a clearinghouse for where a lot of the weed from my region ended up at least momentarily, even if it was just passing through on its way to somewhere else. Like, say, dispensaries in San Diego or, you know, or L.A. or anywhere like that, right? And it was was booming in the bay during those years, if I remember correctly, the Oracle, the GDP, all of that, like a staple of that bay area. Yeah, it was a staple.  So if you had access to cuts, you know, it moved easily and you got a good price point, you know? And that was certainly the height of the gas diesel craze, too. So there was a lot of that sloshing around. Oracle and GDP and Grape Ape and Mendo P and all that stuff. I think that was more like 2005, 2006, 2007, and then like the wave of gas really started to come through. So what do you think was the what do you think made what became cookies appealing in a time where yield was still relatively important, maybe not the most important because O.G. had taken dominance and it wasn't like a power yield for most people. But what do you think drove the necessity for cookies? All of a sudden that drive and hype when there was already O.G. Kush and there was already, like you say, a waning demand for GDP and Oracle? Well, I think it was a number of factors. And I think one thing you can say about it is that Americans are pretty tribal, right? But mostly we're not tribal. Like we're not tribal in the way that a lot of other countries are tribal. Like we're a weird mishmash of cultures. So we get tribal around like sports teams and stuff like that, right? And one of the things that like I think pushed it was that I would say it's probably fair to say in California that L.A. and SoCal was considered like Cushland. Yeah, yeah, even if it was produced other places like the craze, the money, the rap, all that different types of stuff. L.A. got it, got it, right? Yeah. And for the Bay cookies was really something that like all of a sudden was the Bayes. You know, the Bay wasn't just like a clearing ground for the Emerald Triangle. It wasn't just like a pass through. It was something they could claim as their own. Yeah, it was very much a Bay Bay set of cuts. And so just like that, like you're going to have fans of it. And we just like you have fans like the San Francisco Giants or the Oakland A's or the Raiders, you know, or anything like that.  This is unique to us. And then on top of that, since it's sort of started there, the people that were in the know and all the people that first got it were kind of from there. Yeah. Right. So humans like to feel like they're part of something special, right? Yeah, for sure. Everybody likes to be. Huh? So Mo. Well, everybody likes to feel like they're on the end crowd on some on some aspect of things, you know, and a lot of the history of a lot of the history of the of that that became, you know, and it made people famous, too. Right. Yeah. And so I do think that cookies came along at a really weird time in cannabis in the sense that it was a sea change, in my opinion. Right. Where probably before cookies, this isn't going to make cookies sound that good. But before cookies, most weed was judged on its nose and effect. Right. And looks wasn't that big of a deal. Right.  And it was before they even really like dug around. I mean, they could still find something that they didn't like, but for the most part, if the nose hit them like a hammer in the face. Yeah, you were almost all the way there. Yeah, that was super important.  And it came about kind of at the at the end of of a certain era where, you know, IG started happening and these different social media platforms started happening, right? And it looked gorgeous. Yeah. Right. And you you can't, you know, anything you're looking at on Instagram or anything else, you can't smell it. You can't smoke it. You can't. But you can see it. Yeah. And cookies and a lot of its children are extremely photogenic. They're beautiful. I know that was the first thing that truly caught my eye was, well, I'd seen stuff similar. I remember, you know, there were stuff that would come out of different combos and we'll get into that later that I'd seen similar, but I'd never seen anything quite capture all of several traits in one bud. But I also saw the yield and thought, there's no way this is going to catch on.  Yeah, I mean, and I think some of it, too, is, you know, they they got it to some hip hop artists and they got it and they and they got it wrapped about. And, you know, there's if you get it to if you get things to cultural trendsetters, right, yeah, then other people might want it. Yeah. You know, and there was a lot. There was a lot of well developed clubs selling a lot of indoor in 2008, 2009, 2010, all that that era, right?  And back then, if you had an active medical card that checked out, you could go make a deal with a club. Yep.  You literally had a doctor's note and you set up an account and you were allowed to. I mean, that was kind of the way to 15 worked. Yeah. Right. It was you were allowed to supply dispensaries, right? Yeah. And so there and, you know, and what people ended up calling top shelf ended up being indoor. Yeah. You know, not always. There was a lot of light debt back then that made top shelf and stuff like that. But I think, you know, when you're buying something at a store, something that looks really attractive is a big seller. Yeah. And it was different. Right. It was very different. The way cookies looks, the way it's buds form, they're very dense. They're very tight. They look really pretty. The way that it has a tendency to color up really like accents, the THC, you can see the crystal. It has a lot of visible crystal. Yeah. You know, and it did kind of have like an off cookie dough type of sweet aroma. And I think it's the first line that like modern marketing really mattered with. Yeah. In a way. Yeah, you were posting something up there for a minute, but I couldn't see what it was. No, I was just getting it ready. It's the video where they first explain the genetics behind cookies and whatnot. So whenever we're ready to get into that part, I'm going to toss that up so we can hear it from some of the first videos ever posted by them, the cookie crew. So maybe I'll throw in something like this a little bit, too, where I. Matt and I did a Thanksgiving show on sour because we figured if you're, you know, fighting on Thanksgiving with families, pretty traditional. So if we talk about something that gets people riled up, that'll work. And cookies is also probably going to rile people up. And there's a bunch of big players that are involved in cookies and they all have their versions and stories and whatnot. And so, you know, take this as sort of like general tidbits rather than some like completely chronological, you know, attempt to lay out the history. Yeah. Right. Because, you know, the history with cookies, like I said, it's not just about the weed anymore. It's about different people's careers. Yep. Now. Yep. You know, lots of careers were set up by different stories. Lots of stories are conflicting. I've heard all kinds of stories from beginning to end. But what, like I've said in many of our shows before, I've learned a lot of times you can if you grow enough progeny, enough plants, enough seeds of a certain line, the plants will tell you exactly what they are. If you have enough experience and know enough about the baselines, the plants will tell you exactly what they are. And that's what I've always been more interested in when it comes to cookies, not the people behind it, not the players behind it. But what it actually is and what we're seeing when it breeds, you know, that's where I always run to. So that's where that's where I mostly get to focus. My portion of stuff is when I talk about like the breeding traits and how I see them breed and whatnot. But we can cover some of that historical aspect. Yeah.  Or do you want to cover anything else in the beginning precursor? No, I think the beginning part, I think like if we're talking about like setting the stage for what happened, yeah, we probably, you know, it's probably it's there was a bunch of just there was a two fifteen was probably it was probably the height of two fifteen. Yeah, the height, you know, is really when it came out a height of two fifteen or there was a lot of explosion of cannabis going on. There was a lot of new growers coming into the scene. There was a lot of younger people getting involved. It had spread to the point and become chill enough to the point, even though you could totally get busted on a number of different levels, that all kinds of people were jumping into it that hadn't wanted to before. Yeah. A business was booming. Dispensaries were booming. Everything was booming. And if I remember correctly, like the first cut I had heard of was cherry pie out of all of that group.  But the first one that I heard about before cookies or any of that was the cherry pie. And that was that was what I was most familiar with online before the cookies kind of exploded. And they had a similar look, but it was more looking to me than the the nudge structure of the cookies. Was that something you guys saw up there? Do you remember a certain date of it popping up or any of that? Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I'm going to I'll dance around certain aspects of it just because of the of what we're at. But I can say that there are some people that were intimately involved in cookies that I have gone way back with, right? And I knew, you know, years and years and years before this stuff came about. So there was certain things that I saw before cookies became famous. I mean, one of the one of the guys that's involved for instance, he gave me the flow rider in I want to say 2004 spring 2004 or something like that. And so that was the first actual like living in Northern California. I was a little bit behind the Cush Wave in terms of like access to cuts that were specifically Cush. But that was the first one that I used to that I used to I used to rock, you know. And so that was that was four or five years before cookies even popped up. Yeah. Right. And it just so happens because that same crew had that cut that that push cut is the is the cushion cookie. Yeah. Right. That's the claim. So that's so and I just believe it just because of who it came from. And who had access to it and all that different types of stuff. I don't have any. There's a lot of stuff that with cookie that's a little mysterious. That one I think is pretty standard. Yeah. You know. Now what could what cut exactly flow rider is, you know, is it is it a cut of O.G. masquerading under a different name? Is it a different cut from Florida, all that type of stuff? That that's a debate, I suppose. I got a question. When you when you got it, did they call it flow rider? Did they call it Florida O.G. Did they call it flow rider or did how did that happen? Where did that well put on it to be perfectly honest? I, you know, I got it is I got it is O.G. Cush. Yeah. OK. And then, you know, I got interested in Cush and I'd heard a bunch of different things and I went back to him and I asked him. So I hear there's a couple different ones. Which one is it? Right. Yeah. Yeah.  Right. Although it was a play on that, you know, it was it was a flow rider. Yeah. Almost almost like how, you know, somebody with an accent would say Florida. Yeah, I love your southern accent, by the way. That's good. It's terrible, you know. But anyway, supposedly, and I don't know if this is true or not. Supposedly it was it was it was sent from Jacksonville, Florida to the Bay. Yeah. You know. And at the time, I thought my buddy was like all generous for giving it to me. But what I realized way later was that he was going to he was giving me the same price he was giving me for diesels and other things, you know, which was low fours. And then he was taking it to L.A. and like making mad loot off it. Yeah. So I didn't get it like on some, you know, it it. But that that that's the first one. It's still one of the best O.G.s I know of, to be honest. Yeah. The O.G. in cookies is is a really nice cut. So that was kind of my first that was kind of my first as far as things that were in cookie that I personally possessed. Float that that that kush cut is probably the first one. Yeah. You know. And I think what happened is in a nutshell, we can bounce around and there's a lot of depth to all this. But almost like the like the diesel story, I think there was there was multiple accidental pollinations. Yeah, that, you know, this this hermed on to this. We grew up seeds. This thing got named this week. You know, we played around with it a couple of year and a half later. This herms on to this, you know, so on and so forth. And then, you know, yeah, we have we have some pretty good video of. Well, yeah, pop it up. They of them. Well, certain ones come in certain sections, but basically of them making it very clear that it was probably herm accidents because they say they have no interest in breeding at all. So but let's pop up the first one. This is this is, I believe, Jigga and Burner and powers up Kenny. Kenny Powers, they call him. No, not the guy with the mullet, much different guy. And they are discussing in a club. I believe the original video was called big burners bigger business episode one and yeah, this is them discussing it. So let's pop it up here one sec, one sec. I forgot I have to remove stuff in order to even watch this.  There we go. Oh, OK. Matt. Yeah. So that was a total failure. What? I couldn't hear anything. And in the comments, nobody else knew anything either. Well, that's too bad. So that entire time was a moment of silence, a long moment of silence while Matt encouraged technical difficulties. We saw the video. I saw Kenny Powers. I saw I saw a crew, but there was zero audio as far as I could tell. Well, that is freaking weird, huh? Yeah, so it was a it was a silent film version, as somebody would say. Not so loud, no, not so sound break it down. What do they want to know? I mean, first of all, I see some YouTube blogs that said cookies got cherry pie and is that true to clear that up?  So let them break it down, baby. Creech, we want to know. I mean, let's let them know what cookies is.  It's like I would say more of a like a brother and a sister relationship. They have the same parents, one of the same parent, one of the half of the parent is the F1 Durbin crossed with that. Boom, so that you can even hear any of that now you're muted, not so. Hold on, I don't know, your mic's muted. Can you hear me now? Yeah, yeah. Well, we have a bunch of technical difficulties, I suppose. So why don't we just explain? Why don't you just explain in that video at all? I could hear it slightly. It's still playing. It shouldn't be playing still. What do you mean it's still playing? You're not playing, is it? Yeah, you can hear it. I can hear it. That is really weird. It shouldn't be playing. That's one in Durbin poison. I just heard they're talking. I don't know what to tell you. I can hear it. I don't know if other people can hear it. Yeah, I have no clue. I can't even remove it from anything. It's just there. It's probably going to play on loop to here. Let me delete it real quick. Is it still going? I can still hear it, yeah. That's weird, because now it's deleted from the whole thing, so it shouldn't be playing. Let's see. As long as they can't hear it. OK, they can't hear it, so that's all that matters. That's really weird. It is really weird. Now it's gone. Do you have audio playing somewhere else on your tablet turned up so you can hear it? No, I guarantee it's all through my phone, bro. Yeah, that is weird. Yeah. So anyways, I guess we're not going to play the video because none of it's working right.  Yeah, I can't see. I have to put on my glasses to see, and I can't really see. We just bored everyone to tears. So, why don't you give the breakdown of what they said? So the breakdown of what they said was that, basically, that GDP cross to F1 Durbin is cherry pie. I think that's right, yes. And then F1 Durbin cross to the Florida OG is what they called cookies. Now they were asked to clarify what F1 Durbin was. Is it F1 crossed to Durbin? Is it whatever? And it was basically not in your bag. Not in your bag was the answer, so that's where we're at. So basically, it was supposed to be the GDP and F1 Durbin making cherry pie. What's your thoughts on that? That is not what I know of.  So what I think happened, realistically, is I don't think they wanted anyone to know because I don't think they wanted anyone to try to recreate what they had. And I think it's fair to say that no matter who they might be currently, back then, the guys that made it famous were more hustlers than they were growers and breeders. They were more people that moved things around. They were deeply involved in the weed scene and stuff like that, but they were more middlemen than they were someone like you or me who was producing it, making seeds, growing for market, all that different types of stuff. They just weren't that way. And so I think they were concerned both that they didn't want to give anybody credit. All credit with cookies starts with cookie fam. And like a lot of places, as we've talked about many before, times on this show, you work off what you get first. You get work for other people, and you get bag seed, or you get this, or you get that, and then it gets famous, and then what happens?  And I also think that maybe even back then, I don't even think they all had their story straight with one another. I doubt that they really even knew what pollinated what. I don't think those guys could truly identify a herm in a room. What was herming on what? And I think they did a lot of guesswork personally. Like, there ain't the brightest. Well, I don't think necessarily speaking, that's not the brightest. But imagine, I'll be fair, and I'll just say that imagine that your story starts with bag seed. Yeah. Right? And now you have this famous thing, and it's blowing up. And you're starting to breed and do some different stuff with it because you're trying to market it in a certain way. But all the steps that got you to where it begins, you didn't actually do. Yeah. Right? I mean, for instance, it's pretty well known that Berner was a budtender. He didn't grow at all. Yeah. He knew rappers, and he had a small hip hop career that he was trying to work on. And he was an outlet, and he hyped stuff, and he moved stuff. Yeah. And he made that into like, obviously, he's the face of Cookie now. Right? But he's the hype man.  He's the face, and I don't even think that was done intentionally. It was almost like, I think that as these, there's a lot of things. There's a loose collection of people, right? And as fame comes and there's no contracts and there's no formal organization, everybody starts reaching for everything they can get. Yeah. And there was winners and losers in that, at least so far. There are some people that are super well known, and there's a few people that are probably more responsible, at least for the beginning parts, that aren't very well known at all. And that seems to me to be a common theme in the history of cookies, whether you're at the beginning or you're making your way down the road to the lemonade era and all that. It sounds like it's a repeating story, that there are a lot of really, sometimes even really talented people doing some work behind the scenes that don't get the shine. So yeah. I mean, well, yeah, there was an era, there was an era too, where back then, especially, it was all about who wanted to show their face. Yeah. There was a couple people that did not want to show their face. And so as a result, barely anybody knows who they are. And people like Burner and Jigga and stuff like that who wanted to be famous and wanted to use this to make themselves famous, they became the face of it. One got a rap career out of it. Yeah, and became CEO of cookies or whatever. And he wasn't even involved in any of the growing of cookies or any of the breeding or anything like that. He was the guy that got you decent tickets for it and gave it to Wiz Khalifa and these different people that would hype it up and then these famous people had it. And he helped put it on the map. And so when the people that actually owned cookies decided to form the brand, they got the face of it. They didn't really care necessarily so much about who was the most involved or who they cared about. They needed a spokesperson. Yep. A lot of major corporations do that. That's very common. And Burner was looking to be famous and was a good spokesperson. Yeah. Right? And I used to joke that there used to be a bunch of people in the Bay that thought that the eighth of cookies they were buying was personally hand-watered by Burner. Yeah, I heard that a lot. People would get in big arguments or they'd be like, no, no, he's growing it. Come on. Back in the day, it was real bad. And there was definitely crew in the cookie fam that was growing it. Yeah. But that just wasn't his angle. Yeah. That just wasn't his angle. So as a result of all this fame and stuff like that, there's another aspect of it where all of them tried to make as much of it as they could, out of it as they could. Yeah, of course. Right? I mean, it didn't just spawn cookie. I mean, it spawned, although that came later, it spawned Shcherbinsky's. Yes. And the Sher brand and all that different types of stuff. And Gelato and all that. Yeah. And so there's like a, I mean, this could be like a multiple episode show, I suppose, depending on what angle you want to take on it. But I will say, going back, I do think that part of the, what's the best way to put it? Part of the confusion about cookie is that in the beginning, some of them honestly didn't know all the steps. Yeah. And I do think that they also wanted to obscure a bit what they did know, because they didn't want anybody else to either get credit or go out and grab those things and start making things. Because as everyone's aware, cookie seeds and cookie hybrids and OGKB and then Forum and Animal and all these different things that were coming out, they all commanded top dollar. Yeah. So there was a lot of money on the line. And they were always terrified of their secret and their control of it getting out. Yep. Because again, it got famous. And it got famous at this weird time where things were transitioning, but it was still that 215 gray area time where nobody owned it. Yeah. It was very punk rock. Like nobody owned it. There was no contracts. There was no documentation. There was a loose group of friends. Yeah. That was only shortly to come. Right. So there really wasn't a way. I mean, there was even a thing where they wouldn't even let they kept burner away from the gross. Yeah.  Yeah. He was the real winner in that one. And it also didn't have any risk because it wasn't weed. It was just clothing. Yeah. So I wanted to show a picture too of the F1 Durban real quick. This is a picture. This is from the Instagram account F1 Durban. But this is exactly what it looks like, how it breeds. It's very true to form on this. A lot of people question whether it's a real cut or not. It does exist. It's existed for a long time. When we grew it, it was heavy. Merlot wine. But I'm not so good at smelling like aniseed and these turps. And yeah, I mean, I think it's probably very easy to have that in there. I know some people smell Coca-Cola type turps too with that Merlot wine smell. But yeah, this is it. I think it's not very well documented. So I wanted to sneak it in here while we're still talking about the predecessors. I think it ties into, like I said, the multiple accidental pollinations that occurred.  There are certain things that I think we know for sure. There are certain things that are known that aren't very well known.  But yeah. And there's stuff that you think and that I probably disagree with in what's actually in specific ones and specific things. Oh, I mean, interesting. We won't say what exactly, but there was this week between CSI, Matt, and myself, there was debates going back and forth on lineage of certain things and people that had been skeptics maybe even coming around to certain theories or being more open to it because they smelled certain things or saw certain traits. And they were like, whoa. And to me, I don't know why would you want to dance around? I think we don't need to dance around it, particularly on this specific one, because I think it answers a lot of questions. There's been a lot of, is it okay if I just enter in a little bit? I mean, sure, we can let go for it, I suppose. Yeah, I mean, because we're already gonna do the F1 Derb reversal at CSI's and we're gonna answer a lot of questions with it, at least to get an idea of what happens when you cross, say, the F1 Derb and that Florida OG or the Flowrider or if you cross F1 Derb and GDP. Looking at the F1 Derb, I mean, growing it when I did, I didn't have a lot of insight into it. I grew it, seeded it immediately, lost it pretty quick. And I also didn't have the same experience that I did, that I do now looking back when I was growing it. And one of the main question of cookies, I think that me, you, and CSI talk about is where is all the black and purple coming from? I mean, we know Urkel can kick purples and that's, in my opinion, at least, Urkel is the main force behind cookies and the look, the shape, a lot of it. But it's not really well known for consistently and being a true breeding purple breeder. There's a lot of green coming out of purple or purple or purple and GDP much the same, but there is a consistent true breeding black trait in that line. And we had talked about deep chunk, we had talked about, maybe it is just Urkel, maybe it's like this recessive shape being brought up and it's been slammed into each other enough that it's just consistently bringing black now. Or maybe Mendo perps, you know? And what we know about Mendo perps is it's, it expresses a lot of different smells in the S1s. One of those is heavy anise, you know? And that's always very interesting. And I think the fact that it breeds true to black in a lot of cases is another interesting point to that. What's your thoughts on it? I will admit that, this is a little political or whatever, but I will admit that I did not believe for a long time some of the stuff Matt was saying in terms of not that I thought it was lying or anything like that, I just, you know, I just didn't quite see it quite as much. And then, you know, different stuff starts coming to light in various aspects, you know, things start bubbling up or whatever. And I do tend to believe now that Mendo P is in there somewhere. Yeah. I do. You know, and it's simply because, you know, there's a lot of connections between like Mendo and our crew and those Bay Area cats in one way or another. Like I said, I mean, I have a long running relationship back then with one of the guys that we did a lot of exchanging of. We had a cut called anise that used to get pushed through the Bay quite a bit and it would go. Did you say the anus? The anus, which was a strangely, which was a Mendo perps Durban poison. Yeah, interesting. Thing that we made that herms.  And so you want to always be clear about the two. I tend to think that it's in there. I tend to think not that it's in, I don't think it got in there late. I think it got in there early. Yeah. You know, it was an early contributor. And I do know something that's not particularly well known that I guess I could spout or whatever. I know what the mother plant that cookies came out of was. What's that? So the seeds that became thin mint, right? That I guess started the cookie craze or what have you, right? They were grown by my friend and they were rolling up a joint in the bay. One of my oldest friends was actually in the room with these guys at the time. And some seeds fell out of a cherry kush bud. Okay. Okay, and those seeds, Jigga ended up making thin mint. So I wonder, so cherry kush. Now this is different than the cherry pie, right? Yes. So supposedly cherry kush is cherry pie herms onto the flow rider. Gotcha. Right? And seeds from that, they called cherry kush. That makes sense. Cherry pie is known to do that. It'll drop to you. Cherry pie, not only herms, cherry pie throws actual male, full male pollen sacks. Like you would say. Yeah, live pollen. Like not just bananas, but actual, it can pop full male flowers at times, right? Yes. It's a tricky one. Yeah.  Yeah. And as a result of that, I know what room it actually was, it actually, the room was grown in Willets, which is a little town in Mendocino County about 20 minutes north of me. Yeah. And it came out of a relatively small room and there was only three things in the room. And two of them were cherry pie and that kush cut. The other one was Elvis. Oh. Strangely. I remember Elvis. Yeah, the other one was Elvis. There was only three things in there. And so we know what the mom was. So they were rocking Elvis and they didn't use that, they used Elvis. Well, it's not that they used. You're right, you're right, yeah. It happened on, I think, to be honest, I think the first intentional cookie breeding, like by them, came when they started messing around with Sherbert, like when they started messing around, you know, in 2009, 2010, 2011, 12, like that era. Yeah. Right, I think before, they didn't really know, you know, they didn't even have it, right? It was different people that had it. It was getting moved to different people. It's not like certain people weren't smoking it or having it or whatever, but it was like, I think thin mint was sort of the basis for them to like take off with it, if you will. And so, you know, I wish I could actually see comments while I was, I'm talking, there are some people that are dropping some stuff that I wanna, that I would like to speak on, but I have to toggle back and forth between Matt's beautiful face and- You don't wanna do that. You don't wanna miss seeing my face. I know, so that's why it's so hard for me to read comments. So I apologize. Sometimes I'll see him if Matt pops him up because he pins him or something. Yeah, it's, there's a lot of stuff about like, always be flowering and flux and frostboss and all those guys. People just plug in names, trying to guess it. Who's who? I mean- All good names. All good names, I suppose. I don't know if, you know, there's a part of me that wonders how specific to get on certain things and what to stay like slightly mysterious on or whatever, but there was a couple of names. There was even a dude's name that started with a C in there that was definitely involved on a certain level. But I am 99.9% sure that what became Thin Mint came out of Cherry Cush. So one thing I wanna add here is when it came to the forums, when it came to Girl Scout cookies hitting the forums, a lot of people are used to hearing the term forum cut. Now, when Girl Scout cookies hit the forums, Thin Mint wasn't something being passed around or bandied about. The name really wasn't something popping up yet. The first time we saw it was, I believe it was always be flowering passing it to someone either directly to lump status or to someone to lump status. And that was the first time a lot of people really got a good look, like a really good look at big blown up grows of cookies. And they were some of the most beautiful. And I do believe those are still up there on IC Mag. If anybody wants to go check them out, lump status has some beautiful pictures up there. But yeah, the forum cut was the one that, the cut that became called forum cut was the one that tended to circulate. Thin Mint didn't start circulating till much later. Wanted to add that in there because a lot of people are asking about the forum and when it came. Well, yeah, I mean, me and a homie of mine on this show, I'll just call Tuna. Tuna and I actually grew some of the first cookie up in Mendocino because those guys were all stuck in like six and eight and 10 lighters or whatever. And they were trying to get, they were trying to get obviously more of it at the time. And they were so paranoid about anybody knowing what it was. I think they made it, I think they made us call it, I'd have to ask him, gravity. Oh, interesting. Because they didn't want anybody on our scene, any of our workers, they made sure that like we could never talk to anybody that was on our farm about like this was special or this was new. They were terrified of it getting out. Yeah. And so, and they were pretty controlling on it for a long time. So I'm not surprised that Thin Mint took a minute to get out. I think what screwed cookie in that regard is that in cookie lines, there's hermaphrodism and bag seats get out. And that's in a lot of ways, that's how cookie kind of spread at first. They were not passing it out to friends, they were not sharing it, they were not, they had a thing that made a lot of money and was hyping and that was their ticket to ride and they didn't want to share it. Yeah. You know, so I'm not surprised that, I'm not surprised that the real Thin Mint sort of took some time to bubble out, right? Yeah. Because one of the things that's kind of funny, one of the things that swore me off of cookies for a few years was we ran a couple of big greenies, a couple of big depths of it and it fricking, it hermed and seeded. And then they were devastated because they didn't want seeded weed to get out. Yeah. Right, so they didn't want us to sell it. So you can imagine how fun it is to have a couple of greenhouses of weed that they don't want you to sell. It was kind of before like the modern hash era had sort of taken off again, right? So it wasn't like you could just be like, oh, we'll just wash it, right? That, it really wasn't that era yet, right? Where there was like a whole bunch of hash, like there was, you know, there was water hash and there was some BHO and there was Keith and stuff, but it wasn't like all the modern gear that people are used to. Yeah, it wasn't like the secret cups blown it up quite yet, I don't think.  Yeah, that's it. It wasn't, it was the snap crackle and pop era, you know, there was a, it was, it was.  I have ignorance, you know, people didn't know at the time. Yeah. I don't think, you know, people, and we didn't have vacuum ovens and all that different types of stuff. It was coffee filter, water bottle, weed in it, shoot, fucking. I mean, the worst thing was, was, you know, this is getting off tangent, but like PVC tubes was the standard with soap screen.  Strip in that PVC. And yeah. And then, and then all of a sudden people discovered that like after you do that for a while, the PVC isn't smooth anymore on the inside. Yeah. And now weird how that works. So a little polyvinyl chloride or whatever into your mix. But that's, I mean, that's way off topic, but I just mean in the sense that like, I discovered pretty early on that cookie did not like food, sunlight and was prone to hermaphrodism. Yeah. You know, and I think all the early cuts that got out were a lot of them were bag seed. I would think so.  I mean, we see this with diesel, like we've talked about this, we've seen this with chem dog.  Bag seed starts slowly proliferating, you know? I remember when this was happening with cookies, the cookies crew kept referring to everything as fortune cookies. Like you're lucky you got that seed in that bag. So it's fortune cookies. That's not real cookies, they're just fortune cookies. That was the slander of all non-cookie fam approved cuts. Well, yeah, because it was one of those things where if it wasn't branded through them, it wasn't them. Sure.  Yeah.  We don't need, it's not like I'm some expert where I can tell you the origins of forum exactly or OGKB and how it exactly popped up and through where and how. I mean, there's a lot of, you know, like a lot of these things, there's a lot of circles involved.  And there was definitely circles and Mendo that had aspects going on with them. And those, you know, and there was circles in the Bay. And in some cases, some of those people own places in both places, the Bay and by my area. Yeah. You know? And so as a result of that, you know, I don't think, I don't know if most people ever heard of like what, but itself the thin mint was found in because I don't think they wanted to give up what the mom was. Yeah. You know? But I'm night, like I said, I'm 99% sure that it came out of, it came out of Cherry Cush. What's funny, yeah, it makes sense. And what's funny to me is like, it's almost like that old Dutch way of thinking where Neville would put his the lineage out because he was a breeder and he knew it would be, even if you know what the parents are unless you had these exact clones, you're still going to have a tough time making a line that represents the same exact line that I'm selling seeds of, you know? Sure. A lot of these other people, they didn't, they weren't as deep into breeding. So they're thinking, if you know my recipe, you can make my recipe, you can make my food, you know? Yeah, if you know what cut the mom was, you can get that cut. And then you're halfway there maybe. Yeah, maybe. You've got the mom. You've got the mom. Yep, yeah, in all reality, even if you grab two of the same cuts and reverse them, if you're popping seeds, the likelihood you're going to run into that same exact expression in your environment is very low.  So, you know, I know what Buddy came out of. I know what strains were in the room. Do I know if those seeds were from an S1 of that plant? No. Do I know if it was the kush hermed onto that plant? No. Mm-hmm. Do I know if the Elvis was involved? I don't think it was, but no. You know? But I know it's those three and I know what Buddy came out of. Yeah. You know? And I don't think, and I don't even think amongst their initial crew, they spread it out very much. Like, Jigga didn't even tell the person it came from for over a year that he had found it. But that's how it goes, right? That's how it goes. Yeah, he didn't, I think it took, so there's always been intentional opaque, you know, intentional fog, if you will, you know? Yeah, I mean, so looking at cookies from a just purely, and when I talk about cookies, I'm gonna talk about not necessarily the thin mint because I don't think most people, like I know it's out there, people have it, yes, you know, but most people experience the forum in general. So when I wanna talk about cookies, most people, when they think of cookies, think of the forum cut. And when we look at that from a breeding aspect, what I tend to see in it is purple urkel and og kush. And the reason that I tend to see this is because out of doing myself, having made several different og kush and purple urkel hybrids and og kush, GDP, having run a bunch. And what I had seen was this constant, right around the cookies expression showing up, these small, yielding, cushy-looking purple things, you know, slightly gassy. Sometimes more grape. Honestly, a lot of times when I'd see something that looked more close to cookies, it would be more grape-y. But finding one that looked like that with gas was really, really unique. But to me, for a long time, that's what I thought the recipe was, that was it. That's all you ever needed. But I do think Mendo-Purps comes into play heavily, you know?  So you have a situation where maybe, maybe you've got something like, maybe you've got something like F1 Derb, okay? Whatever they say that is. And that thing herms onto, that thing herms onto kush. Yeah. Right? And that's a plant. And then, you know, you've got F1 Derb and that herms onto GDP or something close to that, right? Or Urkel. And you've got cherry pie, right? And then that thing herms onto, and that thing herms onto kush again, right? And now you've got cherry kush. Yeah. And then something herms again and put seeds in cherry kush. And now you've got cherry, and now you've got possible fin mint. You know what else you have? Fennel tives, fennel tives, fennel tives, fennel tives. You got some fennel tives, homie. Yeah, I mangled the English language. So I have a hard time specifically on nailing Jigga on that one so bad, but, you know, but I think that all those cats were determined to be famous. Yeah. And they saw their movie and they took with it. And then all these questions that come out and people want to be like, okay, so have you been in your basement for the last 15 years making this? Yeah. And they certainly didn't want to be like, well, we stumbled upon it at the very end. And we were getting different things from different friends and friends were growing in and we were moving weed and this was happening and that was happening and then I got this seed, seeded bud. Yeah. And so I'm, we're a cookie family. That's a, that's a nice way to end that statement. Right. And boom, here we go. You know, and so, so I mean, I'm just even trying to be fair to them. Like their mission was to like build up, you know, they had an idea that they could build a brand and they could get famous and they could, you know, sell a lot of weed, especially probably in the beginning, it was, wow, if we control this, we can get crazy dollar at all these clubs on the top shelf. Yeah. So let's produce as much of it as we can, right? And get top dollar everywhere. Yeah. I think that's really how it started. And then the branding aspect came along and IG and this came along and these different things started happening and they started to realize that maybe there was, maybe with the way things were heading and legalization and all that, like maybe they could become famous. Yeah. Maybe they could become rich often, you know? And, you know, so obviously like Burner and Jigga are well-known, Sherb is pretty well-known, you know, but there's a couple other people that aren't very well-known that probably had more to do with it than anything, at least in the beginning. Yeah. Right? But they didn't want their faces to be shown, maybe because they were Bay Area hustlers at the time. Yeah. And they didn't want, you know, and you know, I've said this before on the cast too, it's like it's a very different skill set from the 90s through the 2000s of staying under underground and staying with your face not visible and staying safe.  That was a big transition. And it turns out that the people that wanted to stay secret aren't very well-known and the people that wanted to stick their face over everything and talk and be at all the events are household names in the weed community. Yeah. However you wanna say that, you know? But I mean, that's how it goes in any business, not just weed, it's any, like the front man's always gonna be the one that gets the shine. It just is what it is.  Yeah.  So, you know, people were intently not trying to get in trouble. Yeah. You know? And so some people took that route and some people took the fame route. And, you know, I think when they started, you know, they started trying to breed with it, like basically based off the fact that they had this one cut and now they were famous. Yeah. And some people took the route where they tell on the black market people at local business meetings. So we haven't gotten to Gelato or Sunset Sherbet yet. Do you wanna touch on those? We can touch on the Sherb, I suppose. Well, I mean, I think, yeah, we'll start with Sherb. Let's start with Sherb. I mean, that happened first, right? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. So, Sherb supposedly by the, I didn't get to ask Sherbinsky himself what Sunset Sherbet is. He said it was made in his garage during sunsets, I believe. No. It was made the district in San Francisco that he lived in is called the Sunset District. Oh, maybe that's what he meant by sunset. Yeah. Because that was my bad. It's called, if you live there and you're from the Bay, you tell people, I live in the sunset. Okay. That makes more sense.  That would be why. Yeah, that's exactly why. So it's named after the neighborhood. So I've seen a few different things. I've seen Burmese Kush crossed to the flow right at OG. I've seen Pink Panties crossed. Oh, I'm sorry. It was Pink Panties crossed across the flow right at OG. But I've seen different things for Pink Panties on what exactly Pink Panties is, whether it's really Burmese Kush crossed to Flow Right at OG or it's a Burmese Kush crossed to something else. I don't remember. Have you run that one yet or not? The Pink Panties? Yeah. Burmese Kush, which one are you talking about? Yeah, the Pink Panties, which is supposed to be a Burmese Kush cross of some sort. It's in the stock, but it has not made its way into the bloom. Yeah. I remember when I first got it, I was really stoked just to kind of get a good idea of what it looked like. And it reminded me a lot of a lower resin Blackberry Kush. Ooh. Yeah. That does not sound. It had better Terps. It had better Terps than Blackberry Kush. So it's not like a total knock on it. I see why someone would have used it for the Terps, but it wasn't super resinous. Didn't it have great budge structure? It wasn't super dense. It was pretty. It was purple and it had a great pink stock, like pink stripes stock with purple stripes down. It was really pretty that way in veg, but I believe that's what's supposed to be half of Sunset Sherb, if I'm correct. And the other half, I don't remember. Does anybody else remember? Do you remember? Yeah. I think they've acknowledged that it's like, I think they say it's that cross to Thin Mint. That's why Thin Mint and Pink Panties, yeah. Cause it's like the cookies never really varied very far from the root, you know? I mean, that's part of the issue too, is it's not really, they had like a family or a line. They started with a couple of cuts. Yeah.  Gelato is Sherbert back to Thin Mint. Yes. Right? I believe so. Made right of reversing Sherbert hitting the GSC. And he said that originally they were trying to reverse Thin Mint onto Sherb, but that failed. So Sherb onto Thin Mint worked. So they said they tried it two different ways. Did he say, did he say he reversed Sherbert or did he say they had a Sherbert, yes? He said reversed Sherbert, yes. Reversed Sherbert. Intentional reversal of Sherbert in some, in, you know, like in a typical LA garage, blown it up type thing. Like I've always done. No, I was done. Like I said, it was, I mean, I believe them in the sense, in the sense that Sherbinski had a six slider in the Sunset District, right? And Jigga and various people, they were looking for places to do breeding. Okay. They were looking for places to like, okay, so they have this cookies thing, right?  They're getting a bunch of loot from selling it all over to these dispensaries and everything else. And they wanted to take it in different places and start creating seeds because seeds was starting to be booming business, right? Yeah. And so they worked out a deal. I don't exactly know what it was where they brought in Sherb and they brought all the cuts over there and they start, and they used his garage for a few times. Yeah. And because it happened at his house, all of a sudden he's Sherbinski, you know? I will say he was the one person out of everyone, because I hit up everyone for this show to see if they wanted to leave any comments or if they'd respond about different genetics. He was the only one that was nice enough to respond and cared about. I'm not dissing him. No, no, I just wanted to say it for everyone watching. He was the only one out of those dudes that was nice enough to respond. So take that for what it is. I appreciated that part. But I think he had, I mean, I think even on his Instagram stories or whatever, he's gone to the Sunset District and pointed out the house that it started. Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. Type of thing. He had a six, maybe a six or an eight lighter or something like that in the sunset. And he was buddies with those guys and so they started doing some breeding work over there. Yeah. Right? So obviously they have a collab or a partnership going or whatever else and out of that collab and partnership eventually came Sherbert, which they named Sunset Sherbert because of the region of San Francisco it came out of. So it has another bay tie in, right? I always wondered that. Now it makes way more sense with the sunset. Yeah, cause you're not from here. You're not, you're from down in California desert hell. Yeah. But yeah, the sunset is a beautiful district, beautiful neighborhood in the, in San Francisco. And it was, I don't want to say it was affordable then, but it was one of the neighborhoods that you could actually kind of like live in and get away with something like that for a bit. Yeah. Like there's some really wealthy neighborhoods in SF and there's some really crappy ones. That one was like a decent one. You know, and it borders the, you know it goes all the way to the ocean and stuff like that. And so it's a cool spot. And they, you know, there's, so yeah. Again, I think much like the second wave in Amsterdam like, like serious seeds and Luke from Paradise and those guys, you know, where like even 25, 30 years later they still don't want to give you lineage hints, you know? Yeah. I don't think Shcherbinski or Jigga or any of those guys really wants to give out exactly what the secret sauce is. Okay. Because I don't think it benefits them. Like they're not like, they don't take that aspect. They take the much more modern aspect of hide how you did it to some degree, right? Because they don't want anyone out there making reproductions. Yeah. Or trying to find the plants that they used. And so, you know, and as a result of that obviously like the renamed game is strong which is pervasive throughout cannabis. So that thing that you, I never saw Burmese Cush. Yeah. You know, not that that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or anything like that, but just... It was an Adam Dunn thing that was real popular for a while. As anyone? Is that any of your friends? You've seen it? Yeah, Bukku, yeah. It's popular. Bukku. Yeah. It's popular. Yeah. It was real popular during that time especially in Colorado and stuff like that. But yeah, it was one of the early OG Cush crosses that people could get like MKUltra and Burmese Cush. So that's why people were running that I think. That's why people were running it back then? Yeah. Because it was one of the few you could get that supposedly had OG Cush in it. OG Cush in it, yeah. I mean, as far as I know, I could be wrong. I do think that the primary Cush in all these cookie things is that flow cut because that's the one that they have. It makes sense. That was their house cut.  It was kind of like their thing, you know. It's really nice. Yeah. So, and I've heard, you know, I don't know if I want to even speak, you know, maybe it would be, it would be best if it came from sure, probably. I've definitely heard some different things over the years as to like what could have been involved in Sherbert. I've even heard that Sherbert in the beginning was a regular line. Interesting. Yeah. We need to have more to see. That there was, that there was, that there was male Sherberts. Male Sherberts, huh? Male, there was, there was maybe some male Sherbs at first. And I do think, so if you reverse some things, maybe they picked like an exceptional female. Yeah. And chose to take that one to back to the Fin Mint again. Yeah. You know, when they, when they wanted to make gelato or whatever. But I think he's probably more famous for gelato now than he is for Sherbert. Yeah, I would think. I know his name is Sherbinski. I think the gelatos kind of like were a wave.  Yeah. From kind of like one batch of seed, right? Yeah. 45, 41, 42, 33, you know. Oh, here, here we go. I think, here it is. When you plant seeds in number, seed one through 300 or one through 20. See me hear it. One through 80. Well, we did about, I think only like 15 didn't work. No, it worked. Oh well. Did it? Yeah, I was hearing it. I couldn't hear it this time. Oh, strange. I was 15 seeds on this phenol hunt. And the number 20 was just popping. When you plant seeds. At the end, the 20 was just popping. Yeah. I'm not sure if that, I think that was related to like Blanco or something later on. But yeah, that's always a good quote to bring up. Yeah.  Yeah. I doubt it. I remember some of the early days at the cookie collective when they started popping those up and people would take pictures of like the plants in the windows that, cause they put like display clones in the windows and they just be covered in PM. And it's like, dude, if this dude was a grower, he should be able to spot that.  I don't mean this to be like a diss at all on burner specifically. I just, I mean, you, I just mean in the sense that, well, cause I'm not going to diss somebody that doesn't grow. Yeah. You know, like. I do that pretends, yeah. Sure. But, you know, I don't think, I don't even know burner. You know, I think, I think burner is out there to be a hype man. Burner is out there to promote a brand. And he's done a really, he's certainly is, you know, promoted it well. Yes, he has. It's well known. He is good at that. There's not too many corners of the weed world that don't know about cookies. Yeah.  That's very true. Yeah.  And, and they're trying to be a clothing brand and a weed store brand. And I think like the cookies brand is far moved beyond what our interest is. Oh yeah. Which is the, I don't think, you know, they're, you know, our interest is mostly on this show is obviously genetics, plant makeup, how plants breed, how plants smoke, all that type of stuff. I will say personally, we're halfway through the show or whatever, but I am not that big a fan of cookie and cookie genetics, to be honest. I mean, we've been talking about it for a while or whatever. But if I had a jar of a bunch of famous things, you know, cookies is not what I would be reaching for very often. No. Yeah. If I had a jar of 15 things, cookies would not be in the top 15 of everything I've smoked, nothing cookies. There's been cool, unique stuff I've been able to do with it that I kind of like the cookie berry diesel that ended up being the blue cookies cut. I loved that one. But it's few and far between where I'm like, wow, this is good enough to really say it's super, super unique and worth carrying on when it comes to cookie stuff. Yeah, I mean, and that's just like that's just my personal opinion, really, like it's not like, but I just find that like, I really like weed that burns well. A lot of cookies is like to me, it's too dense to like burn that great. And I think that in the looks, I think that cookies suffered from people making mistakes, not knowing what they were doing early on. And I think they lost the high. Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons I think O.G.K.B. became so famous, even though it's like a mutant grows like an inch a month.  Yeah, it was one of the few cookies lines. You know, as far as like cookies goes, I think the ones that actually get you stoned or maybe like O.G.K.B. and real animal cookies. Yeah, yeah, that's what I know. But I think the real animal cookies gets its buzz from the coach. Yeah, it's mostly O.G. Kush anyways. It's mostly it's like mostly O.G. Kush with like some, you know, some other elements to it or whatever. And but I think a lot to me, a lot of cookie plants and a lot of cookie hybrids and a lot of sure about all that. The high isn't particularly unique or potent and it doesn't last that long. I don't know what I don't know what I got something for you. How sure I want you to create a line. I want you to create a line that's truly unique in your mind. But you have to use cookies. You want to make the ultimate special unique cookies line. You have anything at your disposal in the clone world. What are you going to choose? Well, if you're trying to make something unique off cookies, when I look at plants, I look at there's very few plants to me that have it all. Yeah, right. That in that regard, and what I mean by that in terms of like, you know, every every good trait you can think of from structure to bud size to resin content to buzz to flavor to doesn't mold to it doesn't harm. There's all these classifications. Right. Yeah. And so when you're breeding, you're kind of like, well, I'm going to look at what do I like about this plant? And what is it missing? Yeah, right.  It doesn't like food or sunlight and it doesn't get me that high, right. But it has a bunch of cool smells. It certainly has a bunch of cool hues of purple and different types of stuff that can pop out in it. It's bud structure is pretty nice. So I would try to breed it with something that would give it from a production standpoint, although this wouldn't be very necessary as far as a smoker goes. But from a like a grower's perspective, you would probably want to breed it with something that would give it some stretch and some vigor. Yeah, right. Where it could handle a little bit more food and handle a little bit more light.  OK, right. Now, where are you going? See where you're going? Well, in the sense of like, I wouldn't necessarily like cross it like with a Neville's haze. Yeah, yeah. You know, although I suppose that could work, but like it it would it would probably mess up the qualities that cookie has, right. So I'd be looking for something that like packed a rare punch like like the if you wanted to stay cushy, you could do that fifty six day headband. You could throw it on some you could throw it on some chem D, which is, you know, which is which is pretty and super potent. But I would be looking to inject potency in it. It can be like the GMO. That's a good good direction that we've seen. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Chem D. I mean, that's that's obviously chem D by cookie, right. I mean, yeah, at least the chem D expression by cookies. I don't know if they had chem D in Spain. Whatever whatever the case may be. Yeah, yeah. It it, you know, that's that's kind of what you're looking for, right. You're looking to add some potency to it. Yeah. Right. And obviously, like if that is the case and they did use chem D or derivative of it, GMO got pretty famous. Yeah, it did. I mean, it even got famous in the sense it did something that I think is super rare, which is it got famous as a cut that takes 12 weeks. Yeah, I did. Yeah, that is rare. And in my opinion, anything in the 12 to 16 week range is really, really hard to get famous because it's longer running than most people want to go. Yeah. You know, and I think people were willing to run GMO for that long because it dumped that it yielded like crazy. And especially when it came to hash yields and washing and stuff like that, it dumped really high. Yeah. So it made those extra three or four weeks really valuable. But I would be looking to add potency to cookie personally.  That's a good measure.  Yeah, I wish I swear to God, in the gorilla days, I wish I had cookie then. Cookie would have done amazing in like manzanita patches and on the edge of forest. Yeah, yeah, I could see it would have really done good because it's dense. It doesn't it does well in low light conditions. You know, I knew people early on in cookie days that would grow one strain directly underneath the light and cookie all the way around it on the edges. Oh, wow. And they would get really big yields per light off that way.  And then the other aspects that were a little like shaded or whatever that were down the outskirts, the cookie yielded just fine. If people are taking shots with aspect today, they're going to die. So I was thinking because I remember seeing Tom Hill's haze crossed to the deep chunk that he did and actually ended up looking like cookies. So that haze of his crossed to cookies might actually be really interesting and keep a lot of the beautiful form that cookies has. Well, I don't know. Only he would really know after after doing a bunch of crosses with it if you could keep some of the high from that haze in there.  Don't get me wrong. The reason why I eliminated it is because it adds this jungle element. Does and you could probably find something that you really liked, but you'd better be willing to look. Yeah, that's the thing with haze, right? You have to dig. You have to look. And so that's a more complicated subject in terms of. But yeah, in terms of in terms of haze, you're looking for things that make the bud nicer, make it shorter, make it take not as long, yeah, but still keep some of those buzz elements that you're after. The only other thing I would probably go after would be Appalachia just because I still think that's probably one of the fastest, best lines out there right now for hybridizing. I think that would be. I don't know if it would necessarily go super unique necessarily, though. That is so funny, dude. There is this thing I've been looking in the comments and I was like, I should hit up this guy, Jay Cash and ask him to message me.  You didn't know that the whole time. No, yeah, that's the whole time. Yeah, I didn't know that the whole time. But that that's pretty funny. Yeah. But yeah, no, I mean, I I I I I think I think a haze by cookie would be super cool. I don't think it said deep chunk by cookie. Didn't I do that? I think I did that. I think I did that. And it was just a molded, like just horrible mold machine. Yeah, I mean, whether it's from something like Kim D or a headband or a haze, depending on what kind of buzz you're after, you know, I wouldn't do kush specifically. I would go chems just because there's so much kush already. It would just inbreeding that has been bred into it or whatever. I think you'd be better off going for a different potent indica family, you know, because inbreeding is hard. And that's kind of what screwed cookie a bit is is inbreeding.  And certainly haze would add a wild new bunch of genetics that they've never messed with. Yeah. But really what you're searching for is that invisible high. I forgot that that Phil Tiaroho did some of those crosses. He did like above a haze. I think he did a cookie's haze. He didn't O.G. haze. A few different ones that were really cool. Someone just mentioned that in the comments. Yeah, I mean, so I I think I don't I would I would cross it to some kind of chem and see where it went, you know, and I did like the chem ninety one animal cookies that I ran. That was pretty exceptional. It was a writing me of a chem ninety one without the shitty trait of eating itself. But it looked just like chem ninety one, but a lot more. Yeah, I think our our our homies CSI is as a spurt, certainly with the form cut and stuff like that is done, has certainly made some of those hybrids. And he's been pretty excited about some of them. Chem ninety one mixed with cookie is hilarious because it's got all the buzz you could ever want. And it's one of the uglier things out there. So you're mixing it with something that's like really pretty and doesn't have the buzz. Yeah, so you're sort of definitely hoping for the looks from the cookie and the wallop from the chem ninety one. But it's probably in there. Yeah, the only reason why I suggested chems or something like that is just to keep the whole thing, the structure manageable. Yeah, definitely. Keep it, you know, any like. Manable, manageable, trying to get to the manageable. There we go. I get distracted by comments. Yes, you do. It's OK. That's why we keep it away from them. But I look.  I mean, we we might have, you know, that'll probably be a different episode or something like that. But amongst the crew, you know, we have some some of the interesting pieces of this. You know, yeah. I thought this is an interesting one, too. Just also along the lines like the Appalachia cookies would be like a C ninety nine cookies. And I don't remember. I'm sure someone's made that that I off the top of my head. I can't remember who would have made that and that that. I mean, I don't think it would give you anything super unique with C ninety nine cookies is like, you know, but it is Appalachia. I remember you like a much better structure. Oh, yeah, Appalachia can kill it because you got the can be in it. So we already know what can be in cookies do and with green crack. Yeah, I mean, that actually might be a good one because you'd have you'd have structure and potency if you could find the right mix. Exactly. Exactly. And really good yields. It could definitely increase the yields. I take down I love I love Hayes. Sorry, Mr. Soul, but C ninety nine is not on my bucket list of of Hayes's to keep. I get why people like it ninety nine with Hayes myself. But I don't I get it. But I don't just bred away from all the good parts of it. Yeah, it's you went for chunky and quick. I get so much skunk one high from C ninety nine that I just don't like it. I associate with skunk one much more than Hayes because of that. I get why people would I think he bred for looks. Quickness and weight. Who who sold there? I mean, I'm sorry, it would be slide. Yeah, maybe I mean, I think they I think they had a few seeds and popped them and gave out the cuts.  I think you don't believe any.   But, you know, yeah, yeah. But I mean, if their goal was to make a seed line that's uniform, then they epically failed.  So, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, like I have more faith that Sly could have done good breeding work as opposed to soul, who was learning to breed in to grow and get grow tents in Colorado in late two thousand ten, eleven. So, yeah, I don't know. That that's just my personal opinion. I had a lot of insight into seeing that.   Who's this guy?  That's just my thing. I mean, you know, that's a different subject, too. But it is true that in the forums, there was a number of people that got pretty famous and it was sort of the first time that we'd people could get a little famous in that way. Yeah. Right. And you knew what you knew about them through what their persona. You'd most most of these people didn't you didn't know them in real life. Yeah. So, you know, names like Vic High or or Tom Hill or or, you know, Sly or, you know, DJ short or whatever, you know, these people are like producing seeds and making offerings and people are growing their stuff out. And some of them got super famous, right? But you don't know them in real life. Yeah. I mean, I didn't even know Tom Hill was my dad. I found that out later in life. It's super weird. Well, you know, rovers, people. Papa was a rolling stone. Yeah. Papa was a rolling stone. Papa was a rolling stone. But yeah, you know, and so it's like on forums, especially IG is the same way.  Yeah, for sure.  So maybe they can form a slightly like more nuanced opinion. Yeah. But, you know, posts, forum posts and IG posts and all that.  Unfortunately, I think. I think a lot of people make very, I mean, I guess that's even what I did is I was getting on the forums. I made very I made a lot of assumptions about people based on how I saw them interacting and what they were presenting. And and luckily, you know, during the time when I when I was first starting, there weren't a lot of seed makers. So I got to meet a lot of them in person. And that's when I realized how much was smoke and mirrors. And even when I talk to people about me and stuff in my life and what I present, everything is what I want to show.  You know, nobody wants to see that part. It's all curated to a degree. I don't want to see that either. I actually FaceTime not so well. I'm going, oh, my God. So but yeah, I mean, it it's true. It's it's, you know, there are some people that will stun you with the level of knowledge that they have about the plant and about reading when you meet them. And there are people that will stun you into, oh, my God. Right. This is like the forest gump of wheat. Yeah. Yeah.  But he was totally, you know, yeah, he was completely oblivious and half aware the whole time, you know. Yeah. That's me, you know, just stumbling, stumbling blindly around into one thing or another. And see, I kind of felt like that's how I did, though. Like I don't feel like I had any right to be in the crew that I was with in San Diego or have access to the the cuts that I did early on looking back. I'm like, you know, a lot of people spend years, you know, trying to hunt down pure push and stuff. And that was just there, you know, or a hog's breath. That was just there. Well, I think that's what a lot of this is.  That's what cannabis is to me. Yeah.  I'm having a hard time thinking of someone who just simply said, oh, my God, I got hella lucky. Yeah, I partied all weekend. My room hermed. I got a few seeds. I popped them.  Got super famous. I didn't even read before that. I was pissed off when it when it when it got seeded because I was worried that it was going to affect my price point.  And it was a total accident.  But he changed the story later on to be a much Capulator, I will say Capulator.   This thing's good, you know, with the Mac. And after that, the story changed. You know, as far as I was rage for three days and my light timer went off the wrong way. And I came back and passed out from the concert and took me two days to check on my room. And then, you know, and and I'm so all the accidents that have happened or whatever, you know, basically, it's like after you get famous, people start trying to add intention and care and that they were some reclusive garage green genius carefully mixing these things together until they finally got a product to show the world. Yeah. Right. And that's not typically how it works. Typically, when you do that, you fail.  Yeah. Not that you might not make good work. That's not what I'm saying. But yeah, getting famous is weird. Yeah, getting famous and, you know, having a strain takeoff is it's not something that you really totally control. No, I rarely, I mean, I don't think that people really capture lightning in a bottle twice, unless they're already rich. You know, if you're already rich and you can put on a good marketing campaign, you can push yourself to a good spot. You've seen that with Rare Dateness and several other companies as they started. Brand new company, big ads in high times. Bam, they're at the top, you know. But yeah, I mean, it is really hard to to push hype on a cannabis community pre-Instagram. It was, I mean, and even if you push hype, unless it's something that catches the public's flavor and I anyway, you know, that's why we see so many strains that get hyped. And for six months or a year or 16 months or something, they catch a good ticket. And then the community is like, eh, yep. I don't know about that one. And it's like how many of how many of the things in the last three or four years that have been hyped since things went legal? Do you think are still going to be hype weed 10 years from now? Yeah. Or have a resurgence. There's a lot of them that got hyped and they got a marketing machine turned on.  It's like music, right? You can diss one hit wonders all you want. Yeah. Most musicians never even get that far. Yeah. That's true. One to have one big hit. Yeah. Right. That like everybody knows the song. Most musicians don't get that. That's rare.  Yeah. It's the rare ones that are together. 15, 20, 25, 30 and stay relevant throughout that time. Those are like unicorns.  So I watched it. Yeah, it's crazy. But then there's but then there's also staying in the public eye and the public still liking the new things that you're doing after time. Yeah. And so and so if you want to apply that to to weed or whatever, you know, like let's let's stay in cookie. And this isn't meant to be a diss to him by any means. So don't take it that way. But, you know, what is your Binsky done since Sherbin, Gelato and when did those things and when did those things come out? Yeah. You know, it's been over 10 years, right? Yeah. You know, a lot of what Jigga and on those guys made with cookies, it turns out that they didn't even actually make it. Right. Yeah. They've had they they basically have taken under their brand various house breeders at different times. Yeah. I don't know who they all are. But at one point it was Seed Junkie, you know, at one point it was fricking what's his name, Compound. I love the fact that they hired.  That is just when you hear that, that is just that. Yeah, you know, and you know, they've got Kenny Powers, who's actually pretty nice, who's been playing around on a small level for them in the background for a long time and making things for them.   One of the awesome videos I was going to include was Kenny Powers saying how he's from the streets.   Well, they, you know, it's it's kind of like cookies. It's like, you know, you see them open in New York or whatever. And it's like, get the band back together again. All the friends are older. They've got gray in their hair now, but it all kind of, you know, catapulted them into a different world than the last 10 or 15 years that it would have otherwise. Yeah. You know. And I think it's the same thing. It's it's an issue for you and everybody else too. It's like, you talk about it, you talk about it. We have private chats about it where in the 90s you could have seed companies that had the same eight or 10 lines for five, 10 years. And Matt'll joke with me that if he doesn't come out with something every eight months, people think he retired or died. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, I did that six month hiatus off Instagram and literally people were like, yeah, he's done. Dude wiped. Yep. Who? You know, it doesn't take much to fall out of the public eye. Yeah. And then and then on top of that, right? It's like, so going back to like the the one hit wonder, right? You go see some one hit wonder band at a casino, right? And they're still on tour 20 years later. And what do you know they're going to play for sure? That one hit that one hit going to hear it. And so for a lot of these breeders, and this is an issue in this is an issue in breeding in general, right? And so this is this is not to throw shade, but typically a breeder gets famous for a specific line or a specific cut or whatever it might be. And then they just remix that same cut forever. Yeah. Right. Well, it used to be the standard that used to be what it was the standard like, you know, actually across to everything, like NorCal, I see Mag or whatever got famous for OGKB.  I like OGKB. I'm not I'm not dissing it. I'm just saying that, like, that's typically what happens is you the thing you get famous off of. Yeah. You start doing variations on that theme forever. I did that with the Clockwork Orange for a long time. And it just it seems like that is what you like the the typical seed company thing you do. Yeah. You know, like the swamp, you know, the swamp boys with TK, they've branched out recently and done different things.  I always thought that would be cool to bring back. Yeah, they didn't. I mean, but I just I just mean that, like, typically look at like dying breed with Skittles, you know, or the Skittles crew, like, what's the Skittles crew going to do next? Yeah. And is it going to have the same impact with snitches? But what's what's what are they going to do next? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And and so it's an issue with like all like if breeders are lucky enough that like one line gets hella famous. Yeah, it's risky to just be like, this is totally unknown. I'm going in a totally different direction. This isn't what I'm known for at all. Yeah. But this is where my interest is now. And I made that hit eight years ago and I'm not remixing it anymore. Yeah, it's just in the past and you can get it if you want. But this is the direction I'm going in now. Yeah. That doesn't really happen very often in weed. No, I, you know, and I can just comment on this a little bit because when I made that decision with the clockwork, I also had to come to the realization that it can disappear. Like maybe no one will take interest in it after it's gone. Maybe what if it just drops and that's that? Maybe, you know, but there's also the case of what if someone I don't like runs with it? This is my baby. This is our flagship. What if someone I don't like run? There's all kinds of things that went through my head at that. And then as a breeder, when you're making that decision to to work with something that's not so popular or something that someone else has worked with for years that you can still get. That is a big decision to make. It's hard to break away from from what sells. No, those are all the cuts that I like, the not so popular ones. Yeah. Yeah.   Yeah.  But like that whole era where you're buying a booth, you know, and you're doing all this different stuff and all that, like there's a lot of expense that goes into it. Yeah. You know. And so a lot of people breeding just want to hit. They just want to get on base. They want a good hit. They want a good they want to next. This is my next release, right? Yeah. And so you look at a lot of people's breeding stock and you're like, oh, that's the three things you're basing everything on. Yeah. And then what if you're in your thirties and you want to still be doing it in your fifties and sixties?  The smartest thing that anyone's ever told me as it relates to cannabis and being a seed company was from CSI. And he said, never tie yourself to one clone. Never ever tie yourself to one clone. Said the second you do that, the second you're locked into one clone and if someone else gets that, you're no longer important.  I thought that was brilliant. But there's also a thing of like, were you a breeder and something happened along the way that you got famous while you were already a breeder? Like, say, take something like, I don't know, you know, Stardog. Yeah. Right. Like JJ was, you know, Top Dog was already a breeder. Yeah.  Yeah. Right. But take something like, like Skittles, like a lot of breeders, they get, they start breeding when they have a famous cut. Yeah. That other people can't get access to. Yeah. And so what happens when your whole breeding career is based upon access?    And people wanted it real bad. Yeah. And they'll be like, well, I won't give it to you, but I'll give you hybrids. You know, so did you become a breeder to breed or did you get a hold of something famous?  Because then what do you do next? What's your next album going to look like? That's where it goes. I mean, that's why you see a lot of these dudes scramble. Right. Sure. You know, and it's like it's the same thing in music. It's like, how do you stay relevant over 20, 30 years? You have to keep reinventing yourself always. You look at that. You look at the history of seed breeding, who's ever, you know, the next person that does that will be the first. Yeah. Who's who's really even over a 20 year period, who's stayed relevant? That's a hard one.  Right. Yes. Yes. Yes. But you can laugh, but it's like, you know, he started in 1985. Yeah. With all those things. And then in probably like in 98. Right. So, you know, what is that 13 years later or something? He released mango haze, super silver haze and nevels. Yeah. And certainly, you know, especially counting the super silver haze, that had massive impact. Yeah. Right. But think of somebody. Think of somebody else that like 15 years after they got famous, came up with something that also made them super famous again. Yeah. The hard one.   Yeah, there's a lot of older breeders that I've tried to come get back out, work with the public again, and they just want nothing to do with it just because it's just not worth it. It's not they've seen what I've dealt with. They've seen what other people dealt with like, no, no, it's been me so far. Yeah, exactly. You're like, release something. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's all the stuff you go through and all the things you tell me, it just sounds swell. Yeah. You know, really swell. So we're hitting the almost end of the show. We've got to end it before the two hour mark and we're right about there. I think we've covered a lot of this. Is there anything else you wanted to run into while we still have time? Oh, yeah, I guess we do. I guess we are coming close. You know, there was there's obviously a lot more that you could talk about with cookies. Sure. I don't want to say we just scratched the surface, but it's Matt and I do a pretty like free flowing where does the conversation take us kind of style? There's a lot of like cultural impact that it had. There's a lot more depth and breeding. There's different things that we could have brought up because it's one of the big it's, you know, there's, you know, there's a lot to it, right? Some of it we danced around, some of we avoided. Some of it just isn't our interest, you know, Matt and I's interest is much more the the plant side of things than the than the people. That's some, you know, in certain aspects, right? But, you know, there's I do think that there's a lot of rumor out there about it. I do think we dropped a few tidbits that I'm pretty confident people will find interesting nights, so that I think that's neat. There is a dude there is a dude on on IG. I'll shout out for a second. Sure. His name is Buckshot Hill. His family has been growing for a long time. And he's trying to hunt through and find some old like early Pearl and different stuff like that that his family used to grow when he was young and his great uncle just died this week. And his great uncle is as he says, I didn't know him, but he said he was an OG grower and he was part of the Kate Wolf Festival for a long time, which is a folk festival that the Hog Farm family throws up at the Black Oak Ranch in Laytonville in Mendo. So he was part of that extended family for a long time. And apparently he's been growing for decades and he just passed away at a ripe old age, so condolences to his family. And we are losing a lot of that first gen rest in peace, fellow outlaw growers. Yeah, fellow outlaw growers rest in peace moment of silence. And if you have old people in your family or community that have been growing for a really long time and have stories, try to get those stories from them. Yeah, because once they're gone, they're gone, and most of our weed history is oral, and you never know what little tidbits or different pieces of information that might fit into a puzzle are sitting in those people's heads. Yeah, and most people don't know that not so as biggest fascination revolves around oral, too, which is.  And for most of human history, all history was oral. Yeah, right. And weed history, because it was illicit and clandestine and illegal, for the most part, wasn't exactly written down. You didn't have a bunch of people getting on camera like we are now and talking about it until recently. So most of the people involved in the 60s, 70s and 80s are still mysterious. Yeah. And they're and they're older now. You know, we're going to be working on some in the next coming up episodes. We've been doing a lot of networking and communicating with people on the back end. So there's a lot of stuff I'm really excited to tell you guys about in the future, but I don't want to jinx it. So, yeah, hopefully we'll have some cool new shows coming up soon. Definitely go check out the site, right? Seize.com. We have we just did the Appalachia Drop sold out within 20 seconds, literally 20 seconds sold out. We're going to restock those. We have the Santa Cruz wreck, the Blue Dream train wreck restock and some smellboat stuff restock. So go check that out. Yeah, you want to say anything else before we're done? I'm just always happy that people give us their Friday night and their time, whether they're watching it live or whether they watch it on replay.  Thank you very much. Yeah, thanks, everyone. I appreciate your time. Perfect script from up north. Cut upon it. Your generous, generous time you share with us on these long Fridays. So cheers, everyone. Have a great night. That's us. Got got got, dude. Perfect script from up north. Cut upon it.


partial observer down here to advise you whether there's any violence, whether not everything's not being handled exactly as it ought to be, that he would welcome it. And he says he'd be glad to cooperate, he'd give them, send them anywhere they want to go, see anybody they want to see, that he thinks you ought to know what the facts are. He says that these people that are in the state haven't scratched it. And that they've got to do something to attract attention. Now here's what he says about this thing at Philadelphia. He said those people were in Meridian. They left Meridian to go to Philadelphia, which is 45 miles away. Before they got to Philadelphia, they were announced missing by the headquarters of this organization in Jackson. And then they showed up in Reagan and were put in jail after that.  Now he says he expects them to turn up. Claiming with bruises and claiming that somebody's whipped them. And that he doesn't believe a word of it. And it is peculiar from what he said that they were reported missing. He said 45 minutes after they left Meridian, before they got to Philadelphia and they served, were put in jail in Philadelphia after that. Okay, now here's the problem, Jim. Hoover just called me one minute ago, I guess five minutes ago and told me that they had found the car. It wasn't headed toward Meridian. It was headed the different direction out of the Indian Reservation. Indian Reservation between Philadelphia and Meridian? Well, he said it was headed away from Meridian, but an Indian found it, saw it burning yesterday.  And it's so hot they can't get inside of it and they don't know whether people are inside of it or not. But it's the same car they were in because it's got the same license number. Well, I know nothing about that. But the governor says you can send some impartial man down here and that you'll get the surprise of your life. And there he is now, now all around me there, in Louisville is one of the headquarters. And there's just nothing, there's no violence, no friction of any kind. Okay, much obliged and you've communicated my wishes to him so there's no use in my calling him.  Bobby's suggested an agenda of what you were going to talk about and he won't say it. That's good. Well, that's something weak in the ring. Yeah, that's good. I haven't seen it, but anything suits me and I want to be guided by all the suggestions. You're an attorney general. That's fine. Okay.


While we can do many derivatives by using basic rules of algebra and a couple of simple derivative rules, if we know a few more derivative rules, we'll be able to handle a lot more derivatives. So we'll introduce the product and quotient rule. So suppose I have a function that is a product of two other things, f of x and g of x, then the derivative is going to be the first function times the derivative of the second, plus the second function times the derivative of the first. So suppose I want to find the derivative of 2x plus 5 times 3x plus 7. Again, the last thing that we do determines the type of function, and in this case this is a product, and we have a way of finding the derivative of a product. And because you found this way on the internet, it must be true. But you might be somewhat skeptical and want to verify that the derivative is actually correct, so let's see if we can find the derivative in two different ways. So first we'll use our product rule. So if our function looks like the product of two things, then the derivative is going to be the first one times the derivative of the second, plus the second one times the derivative of the first. And we'll actually write that down. Now we need to find the derivative of 3x plus 7 and the derivative of 2x plus 5. And at this point the calculus has done. Anything you do after this point falls into the category of algebra. But let's verify this by finding the derivative another way. And we actually found this derivative earlier. We found that the derivative was 12x plus 29. But this isn't what we found as the derivative using the product rule. Is the product rule false? Maybe we should abandon it. Maybe some things on the internet aren't true. Before we completely abandon our product rule we might do a little bit of algebra. And we find that we do actually get the same derivative just in completely different forms. And that's an important thing to remember. Depending on how we find the derivative, we may get two different expressions for the derivative. But as long as we've done everything correctly, those two expressions will be the same after some sort of algebraic or other type of simplification. What if we have a quotient of two functions? Again if you have a hammer every problem looks like a nail. In this case we just got the hammer of the product rule. So let's rewrite our quotient as a product. And here since h of x equals f of x over g of x then cross multiplying gives us h of x times g of x equals f of x. And over on the left hand side I have a product and I know what that will differentiate us. So f of x equals h of x times g of x. So my derivative of f of x will be h of x g prime of x plus g of x h prime of x. Now we actually want to find the derivative of h of x. So we'll solve for it. And while this messy expression is perfectly reasonable as a derivative, let's clean it up a little bit. This is a compound fraction. So let's multiply through by the denominator g of x and after all the dust settles we get this nice expression for the derivative. And so this gives us the quotient rule. If my function is a quotient then the derivative is going to be the denominator times the derivative of the numerator minus the numerator times the derivative of the denominator all over the square of the denominator. So let's find the derivative of x squared plus 3x plus 1 over x squared plus 7. And since it's on the internet we may want to verify it. So we will invoke our quotient rule and we'll write it down. Denominator times derivative numerator minus numerator times derivative denominator all over denominator squared. And now we need to find the derivative of x squared plus 3x plus 1 and x squared plus 7. And we get our derivative. So let's verify that this actually is the derivative. So if h of x is x squared plus 3x plus 1 over x squared plus 7, then cross multiplying gives me x squared plus 3x plus 1 equals h of x times x squared plus 7. And we know how to differentiate products. So the derivative of h of x times x squared plus 7 is h of x times derivative of the second plus the second times the derivative of the first. And over on the left hand side I have the derivative of x squared plus 3x plus 1. So I'll fill that in. And now I want to solve for h prime of x. So we'll do some algebra. And after all the dot settles we get this expression for h prime of x which we verify is the same as what we got using the quotient rule. Or let's try a more complicated function. So again the last thing that we do is this type of function we're dealing with. So here if we take a look at this, this is a quotient. And so we can find the derivative of a quotient denominator times derivative of numerator minus numerator times derivative of denominator all over denominator squared. So now we want to find the derivative of this expression which is a product. So we'll use the product rule. First times derivative second plus second times derivative first. But now we need to fill in the derivative of 2x minus 5 and x squared plus 7. And we get this as our derivative. We also need the derivative of x cubed plus 8 so we'll differentiate that. And we'll substitute in our values to get our final form of the derivative.