es into effect. You can't go into a historic district and just willy-nilly tear down things. There are rules and regulations that protect historic districts, historic structures. And I'm saying all of these things because I'm still at this minute, still struggling with this whole thing. And I know it affects different neighborhoods and certain concerns and even fears. And it kind of concerns me too, distrust of quote, developers. But it's been said tonight, anybody, a homeowner can go out in the backyard, make a trip to Lowe's and build his own ADU or, but anyway, I think I'll just let those comments go. I just wanted to throw those things out that and to reassure people, and I've said this many times, this EHC is not designed to be a land grab. It's not, nobody is going to force anybody, whether it's a historic district or whatever. And I think this whole EHC concept, when we get to the comprehensive plan, could involve and probably should involve not only suburban, but it, there's applications countywide because we are gonna grow. Everybody cannot live downtown. Everybody's gotta go somewhere, especially when new housing is being developed and built and gentrification is taking place. There's no other place to go, but toward the county moving out. And so our planning, I think, and I probably won't be around when this time comes when it expands that far, that we become almost metropolized, if that's a word, but I, those are just some comments and some faults that I have. But I think when we all work together under the leadership of the planning department, and I think they have the capability, the expertise to address and consult other towns in other states just to get some pointers, but I also have faith and hope that when these considerations or these investigations are made, Durham is not Portland, Durham is not Pittsburgh, Durham is Durham, and whatever is decided would have to be determined and the final product is gonna have to be based on the Durham's uniqueness. And you know what I mean. Thank you, Commissioner Gibbs. Thank you. Commissioner Morgan. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. I kind of held back on my initial comments just to leave room for some of the more articulate members of our commission to add their comments and it kind of confirmed my own gut feeling as far as hearing what we've heard from the public as well as we've heard from the other commissioners. I think the cake isn't baked yet, so to speak. I think there is a number of things to do with it. I don't think it's something we get rid of, but I do think where I said last time was more data. I think we've got data, some of it. We've got some great feedback and we got some good, well thought out ideas. And I think what we need now more is more collaboration with the community, more collaboration with the planning commission, the planning department and with this in order to bake the cake more. Because I think if we want to get this right, it impacts everything. And so it is just so large to try to push it forward to get more input and get more collaboration with the neighborhoods because it isn't a one size bit all. It is more related to different neighborhoods. So my thinking here is understanding that and to be allowing for that. Which like what Commissioner Miller was saying about, we sometimes get the cart before the horse. We've done different things. We need to know more about the comprehensive plan. We need to draw the boundaries better to understand what works and what doesn't. To take something that's 12 years old in a comprehensive plan and we haven't revised it and use that as a basis for this can be flawed in some ways. So my thinking is measurable results as some people have said. Defining clear results of expectations of what we need. Concerns, there's more details I think sometimes our concerns that's if we are able to solidify those a little bit better, that'll take a lot of the fear factor out of this particular program and what it might do to people's communities and their homes and their neighborhoods. So that's kind of where I'm thinking from that sense is my gut was saying we're not ready yet with some of this stuff. And I think there are more things we can do. And I think some of the certainly the comments that we got was really well thought out. I think certainly with some of the handouts and some of the emails and some of the very clear things of saying this is what we want to do and these are the changes we'd like to recommend. And again, I'm thinking more in terms of I think staff's done a great job in collecting the feedback and the information but I'm a little disappointed that we didn't get any changes in the revisions from the March draft. And maybe just because we just didn't have enough time to incorporate that. So that's kind of where I'm thinking in terms of is we've got feedback and to push this forward and to leave our elected officials to try to figure it out for themselves too is a disservice to them because our job is to provide advice and clear direction. So in my situation, I'm sitting there thinking the feedback that we've gotten from some of the other commissioners and some of the more articulated analysis that people have done, especially Commissioner Alturk who's done some of that work and we're looking at the data. My sense is just we need to really do a good job of this and get this right because this is for the whole city, not necessarily just one neighborhood. And we need to kind of look at it from that perspective. That's my comment. Thank you. Commissioner Williams? Well, I always try to be very brief and I never have questions so I won't start any tonight. I look at this from the totality of it. I'm a lifer in Durham, from Durham, born and raised in Durham. And a lot of what was said here tonight is a lot of my thought process on things as I drive through my city, as I call it. I'm quite concerned about 50, 50 foot homes living next door to very small houses. They're very towering and it's also a privacy invasion as I look at it because even if I had a privacy fence, I still don't have any privacy because you can clearly see over it. So I don't agree that density is going to approve anything because as we've been saying for months now, all these people are moving to Durham and that's why we have to keep building well that's supposed to help the affordable housing crisis and supposed to make things more affordable in Durham. And I know that that's not the case because as everybody else's property taxes went up, I'm quite certain that was a shock. Mine went up and it's not making it any more affordable and I have somewhere to live. So that's not the solution to the problem and that's not what we're banking this off of. I think we do need to be more considerate as numerous people have said today about those that have vested in the city. People who have been here, people who are going to be here, people who have seen the good times and the bad times. We talk about being responsible builders and the impacts that it's going to have on the environment. The only concern I hear is tree canopy and impervious surfaces when no one's considering carrying capacity and we're reaching that greatly. Tearing down one home that sits on a quarter acre and building three more is not helpful. It's not going to change anything. It's going to do more harm than good in the long run. And a lot of people do have genuine concerns about where we're gonna be in 20 years. Some people who have been here for numerous years have seen the up times and they've seen the down times when it's bad, it's bad and that's economy based. We can't do anything about that. So I don't know that accessory dwelling units is gonna necessarily be the solution to the problem. As some people call them granny flats. Most people who live in granny flats can't really navigate a 25 foot ceiling in terms of moving up. Like you have to navigate stairs, that's 12 to 16 stairs. Recently being 48 stairs is a challenge to my knees now. So I'm just saying, I just think that we're banking on what seems to be popular definitions for the reasons why we justify the things that we do. And I don't do studies, I don't do statistics. I do what I see in reality. My parents are from Durham, I am from Durham. So I know what's going to happen. I know because it has happened here before and we aren't learning from history, we're going to repeat it. So that's gonna lead to 40 and 50 and 60 lots of empty homes that are going to deteriorate because nobody lives there. When the popularity of Durham fades out, what do we do? And I think that that's the larger concern of a lot of lifers in terms of preserving neighborhoods, not because they're historic but because they have withstood. Some of these people in this room are gonna leave their homes to their children and their children are gonna return home or their grandkids. And I think that that's what they want. They wanna be able to say that they can do that. And I know that the rate in which property taxes are increasing and people cannot afford to remain in their homes as they are now, we have to be considerate of that. We can't keep providing housing choices for people who are coming in or make a greater income values when the people who live here rate of income is not increasing. So I think that that's the sensibility and the more we have this meetings, the more that we continue to be invested in the city, we have to consider that. There are things that are beyond our control. People can no longer afford to renovate their homes due to recent economic issues that are beyond the city of Durham's current issues and situations. So I think that the more that we hear the residents, the more that we have to kinda stop acting in hindsight. We can't come back and undo the fact that we wanna expand housing choices when we gave approval for multimillion dollar complexes to be built downtown. And now we're concerned about affordable housing. Now we're concerned about expanding housing choices when that should have been in the forefront to begin with. So I think that we can't rush to a decision of how we're gonna address a situation we created. Now in hindsight, I think that we have to take our time and we have to listen to these residents. We have to listen to the citizens of Durham. And we can't keep forecasting what's gonna happen. Because 20 years ago, we didn't know we would be the most happening city on the East Coast. That's just where I stand. And hopefully we'll be going to emotion now. Thank you. Actually, not quite yet. I did have a few additional questions, but I appreciate everyone's comments. I have peacefully said through all of your comments. So I'm gonna say a few things. What I do wanna do though, number one, I appreciate everyone's comments on the commission and the citizens as well. I wanna say first of all, I am very glad we waited two cycles. I appreciate all of you rolling up your sleeves and coming back here tonight. I think one of the challenges that we had in March and those of you that were here, tell me if I get this right or not. But I heard a lot of folks we talked a lot about I support the November proposal. I support the March proposal or I don't like any of the proposals. What I heard tonight with the 60 day continuance was more nuance, I heard more thoughtfulness. We've all of us, myself included, we've had time to dig in. There are still people who still want the November proposal, I understand that. I think those are individuals who say, we have a problem, we need to address it, let's get started. I've also heard individuals who are evolving as they learn more. I heard Ms. Kessler say I started out skeptical of ADUs and she's warming up to that. I think that's important. I've heard Ms. Seibel and others from the Coalition for Affordable Housing bring us really thoughtful proposals that have more depth than we had in March. Ms. Ortiz with her work and reaching out and talking to community members who may not have had input in March. So I say all that to say, I think we're getting closer. I did wanna ask a couple of questions of some of the individuals who spoke tonight just to make sure that I have a clear understanding of exactly what you were asking. So if you are willing to come up, I'd appreciate it. Ms. Seibel, if I could start with you and then Ms. Ortiz, I was gonna invite you up as well. I wanna give you a head start. So Ms. Seibel, and I'm looking at the statement from the Coalition for Affordable Housing and Transit, number three in particular. So you talk about expanding affordable housing stock and you talk about the city should implement new programs at the same time as the effective date of the provisions to provide both financial and technical assistance to homeowners and others to utilize these new programs. Could you talk a little more about what you're thinking is there because I have similar concerns. So there is a city affordable housing plan, a five-year plan and part of the funding will come from the proposed $95 million housing bond, which isn't on the ballot until November. There's a small line item. It's relatively small for affordable dwelling units and other preserving naturally occurring affordable housing. And I think there's some specific funding, again, a small amount for homeowners to help them maintain their homes. So there is a little bit of money that might be able to assist. And then there's some larger chunks of money, I think, to help people. But I think those were going to be larger apartment complexes, hopefully affordable apartment complexes. So I think there's some funding, but it won't be available until well after that bond referendum. But that's something that I'm hoping that as you pull together the stakeholders, it will be not just the planning department, but also the community development department. I know Karen Lotto has been working on that plan and probably need to consult with city council and the mayor to find out what's gonna be funded in that housing bond referendum as well. Great, thank you. And for staff and Mr. Stock, and you may not have the answer to this, but from a staff perspective, is it feasible for these two efforts to be on similar timeframes or are we on a track where we're gonna approve this proposal expanding housing choices, however it looks sooner, and then these kind of support programs are gonna come later? I'm just trying to understand the timing of these efforts. The timing that we're looking at right now, as we said, we're probably gonna at least try to make the August meeting, one of the August meetings, so that would in effect be before any even bond proposal that doesn't mean that council can't set a different effective date for that. Okay, that's helpful. Thank you. And Ms. Ortiz, if I may, I'm gonna ask you actually, if you mind, could you walk through your four points again? I was taking frantic notes, but I'm not sure I got them exactly right. Sure, I can also email the meeting after this meeting. That would be helpful as well, but actually if you don't mind just doing one at a time then I'd like to just ask staff a question on each one if possible. Making ADUs a max of 800 square feet just by right. Cause if you have a thousand square foot home, which a lot of working class neighborhoods do have those modest size homes, it makes it much like the woman who was speaking earlier, very difficult to have an ADU for the aging in place kinds of things that people might be thinking of. So 800 square feet, so that we're not picking on the little houses. Leaving them out of the game, especially with such generous sized lots in so many situations. And from the staff's perspective, I mean the expanding housing choices, the current proposal is 800. So we do that, check. Check. Thank you. And so the second point? The flag lot from 20 feet to 12 feet. And we're thinking that on lots that are maybe a little narrower towards the front, where the house, depending on where it's positioned on the lot, you don't want folks to feel like they have to maybe knock those down to access the lot in the back. So to eliminate some of the logistical sort of jigsaw puzzling that people are doing to meet the 20 foot standard, 12 feet being a little more gracious for that. Great. And that is also in this current proposal. Check. Check. Excellent. Thank you. Then the duplexes, allowing them by right throughout the urban tier. Check. So three checks. Thank you. Yes.  This is when we heard a lot, especially from low income community groups that fear being potentially differently policed in houses around the unrelated family members, even though some people have a mixed bag about some people have a mixed bag about enforcement. It's the number, the definition of family about unrelated, no more than three unrelated persons in a home. Which feels really discriminatory based on privileging a particular way of defining family. So from three people to five people. Right. And I'm not a lawyer. So I don't know if that is something that the city has jurisdiction over or and where. You do. Yes. In the union. But that is not addressed in expanding houses. That is not contained in these proposals. Okay. Then if you don't mind just one more question. So part of the reason I'm asking is that this is what my recollection was of your comments. I was sitting here thinking, so here are three items that are in the current proposal. There's a lot more in this current proposal. That's what we've heard a lot of concerns raised about. What have you heard? And I know this is an unfair question, but in a minute or two, but if you don't mind just sharing what in your work you have heard that, because you could have put more things in here and said there's a lot of agreement on eight items. You gave us four and three of them are in here. Anything, any concerns that you were hearing about what is remaining in our proposal. But it's too much, too complicated, too fast without due process, right? For the rest. And much to, I love what Larissa was saying earlier about wanting to make sure when I have been out in community trying to explain this I have been very expressed in saying based on my entire organizing history and understanding how economics around these kinds of things work that you have to pair not just zoning policy changes, like you can't just do those on your own. You have to pair them with good programming, education, technical assistance. That's one bar. Obviously the policy changes and you also need financial tools and that can look like a myriad of things. And so part of what I've sensed is that community feels like there is a lack of trust that they will be able to secure those things if the whole package were passed at once. So whereas traditionally, and I'm gonna use some language here that's not meant to speak to anyone in the room, it's meant to talk about history, okay? Traditionally density has been used and captured and wielded by white wealthy people to the exclusion of other people. And in this case, there's a sense that people would like to hold it hostage to ensure the inclusion of more people to be able to utilize what these different density opportunities might mean for them but maybe aren't able to realize those options without the programmatic and financial tools assisting them. Does that make sense? It does. And so is it fair to say, and you tell me if I get this wrong, is it fair to say that you personally, based on these past few months of diligent work talking to lots of individuals? Oh my God. And y'all, I'm not paid by anyone to do this, to be clear. You would say, would you ask us to oppose the current version of the expanding housing choices even though there are three items that are in here that you believe are positive? There are three out of the four items that you raised tonight. Three are in here. Would you say to us, approve this as is? Or would you say, this is too much too fast even though there are three things I like? Right. I say it's too much too fast. Take the four things and suggest those in your notes to counsel and let them make the one or two word choices and changes that would allow for this to flow through with those four points in the text. Thank you. I appreciate your willingness to have this Socratic dialogue. No worries. So back to the commissioners and I'll just tell you, when I came here tonight knowing that this was going in August regardless, right? We can vote tonight. We can continue this for one more cycle. I was inclined to vote tonight because this is going to counsel regardless. There were zero changes made by staff in the last 60 days. I say that without judgment. It's just a fact. So it leads me to think there is absolutely no changes coming in the next 30 days. All of these fine individuals will be required more than likely to come back yet again next month. We would have another public hearing. We might have the same conversation. I could be changed on that. We had a different conversation tonight than we had 60 days ago. I think we had a better conversation tonight because we're understanding this more. We're getting good ideas. We're getting nuance. We're starting to really figure this out. I would still rather vote on this tonight personally. What I don't wanna do is I think it's the easy way out is for us to just have a straight up or down vote on this proposal. I would rather us do the hard work of actually making a recommendation to counsel but I don't know if we have the time or the ability to pull that off tonight to actually make a proposal to counsel that would say we would like you to do this for the expanding housing choices. So I say all that to say, I think I'm in Commissioner Morgan's camp of saying we have one more cycle. It does not change the timing of this going to counsel. Question for staff. I believe next month's agenda is fairly light. Is that correct? That is correct. You might have a couple cases. Might have two. Two zoning's. Two zoning's. Couple means two. Couple. Well, two, couple, yes. Okay. Tentatively two. So it could be more but maybe less. Could be more. Okay. Could be more than two. Yes, right now they're pretty confident that it's going to be two, maybe one or two more could sneak on if they are ready to go. Yes. So thank you. I want to hear from commissioners. I also recognize it's 20 of nine, but I think this is important and we got to stay and do this. Commissioner Johnson. So I agree and I was just wondering, thank you for bringing this up. My thinking is that even with the continuance for an additional cycle, I think that any feedback that we're going to get is going to fall within this bucket of concerns that have been expressed over the since March. So it'll just be the weighing of more people said this. And so my question and my question to staff is you've provided rationales for why you've presented what we're having a discussion about. Like it seems to me unlikely that anything will change even with the continuance. It's just you'll probably come back with what we're looking at today. So does it make sense to even go up 30 another cycle? Yeah, I will say, I will say Commissioner Johnson that that's probably true. I think the reason why there were no changes to this proposal is we went out and did more engagement over the last two months. We heard a lot of the same. The camps are pretty, pretty well established. Either folks want more folks want more time or folks are okay with the proposal as it is. So I don't see that changing in the next month. I will agree with chair Busby that having the planning commission recommends something to city council would be very helpful for us. And so if that takes another month, we're okay with that. Thank you. Additional thoughts, Commissioner Johnson, the floor is yours at the moment. I guess I'll hear from the floor is moving Commissioner Williams. Yeah, I have a question. So, which is rare, but if we come back in 30 days is there yet another public hearing or is this merely for us to formulate our thoughts as a committee and as a commission to what we plan to suggest going forward? Because I think now we would be entering a third cycle of bringing these very same voices back and then yet again, they have to go before the city council. That's a great question. I'm gonna let the staff answer that. So yeah, to continue it for one more month, the public hearing would have to stay open. That does not mean you have to take more testimony. I'm okay with that. Additional thoughts, Commissioner Williams? No. All right, Commissioner Miller and then Commissioner Morgan. Sure. So on that subject, I was concerned about that too and thank you for the answer. I don't like to play fast and loose with the community. If we do continue it, if there's somebody who has not spoken before and has something they want us to hear at least for a few minutes, I would make sure that we don't turn anybody who has something new to say or somebody who's not said anything that we would turn them away. I would be against that. I'm against continuing a hearing that we're not actually going to hear. But on the other hand, what we do, what other planning commissions do, and there's all kinds of forms and then there's not one right way. There are planning commissions that meet and they hammer out like a majority opinion and they send that. We don't do that. We send out, we vote. There's a majority that wins the vote and sometimes we approve or recommend approvals. Sometimes we recommend denials. But after that, our rationales all come higgledy-piggledy, different people saying different things. Frequently we've discussed it together. We've heard the same things. Frequently we say the same things. Because we do it that way doesn't mean that we couldn't attempt whatever our vote may be to come with a more unified statement of why we voted the way we voted and to make recommendations also because we're an advisory body. Our vote isn't our only recommendation. We could say we voted against this because but if it had this, this, this and this in it, we would have voted for it. And I think that kind of advice is always available to us. We just don't do it. And usually because it's a single zone in case it's a single parcel, it's a much more simpler set of issues. This is big. If we, I would love to now, I tried to write down everything everybody said over two hearings. I would like to go back through that and process through my mind and come back with a proposal of my own making and see and let you debate it and kill it or and listen to your proposals and see if we can cob something together where we speak as nearly as possible, if not with one voice, with a majority voice. So I'm in favor of continuing the hearing, hearing a few people with the understanding that we're not just gonna open it back up again and let everybody speak. But if there's somebody that really has something new to say if then to hear a few people and then really work amongst ourselves to come up with some, if it's possible and it may not be unified advice to the city council and the board of county commissioners about how this is going to proceed going forward. And of course they can ignore our advice but I don't think they can fault us for having attempted to do it this way. I yield my time to the young lady in the back. Yeah, I yield my time to her. I'm sorry. Going forward. She has some excellent points in advisory statements. So yeah, I yield my time. Commissioner Miller. I'm done. So I would favor putting it off for a moment. So chair. Yep. Commissioner Morgan and then commissioner Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think some of the feedback that we got in written form from some of the people in the can really help us guide the kind of response that we would want to have. I agree with what commissioner Miller's saying is to try to come up with a unified direction to city council so that they can look at it and make a much more informed understanding or decision on what they want to do. And I think some of the feedback here is excellent. I mean, I'm looking at Ms. Kessler's write up and her concerns. I'm looking at Ms. Wilson's write up that she handed out to us that's saying it's very pointed. Here's the things that you would do if you vote no. Here's the thing to do if you vote yes. We could almost take that and expand on it and come up with something I think that we could all agree upon. And I think that's agreed. It would make more sense to city council when they're reviewing this with this feedback and with this advice, I think we're doing a good job as a planning commission. So I do think I would agree with that approach is to try to come up with a common thing. I mean, we could do it as part of say, vote it up or down and provide our comments. And we could still do a majority opinion that way too. So that's another option to consider, but I'm in favor of some kind of unified structure of comments because this is big. Thank you. Commissioner Alturk and then Commissioner Johnson. Thank you, Chair. I guess I like this idea and principle and because we haven't done it, I'm curious if you could walk me through how it might look like, what it might look like. That's my question. I mean, would we all come with our ideas and then we would just hash it out here? Would we designate, because we cannot meet between now and then. So, if other commissioners have ideas about how this would work in practice, I would love to hear that or if the, my preference of course is to go back to the planning staff and to neighborhoods and to work that way. Right. But I guess we cannot do that or we can vote no and say and recommend or we can recommend that, I guess. So yes, now I'm just speaking. No, it's a fair question. I think it's important to note. We as commissioners, we have to do this in a public setting. So we will not be meeting somewhere else as a commission to come up with a proposal. But that said, I would like to recognize commissioner Brian who has served for many, many years and there may be previous examples sharing. There is a mechanism which the commission has used in the past. We used it in particular when we were doing our memo addressing the drought situation some years back. The commission can dissolve itself into a committee of the whole. We're still here, we're still in public, but it makes it simple. We don't have to have motions to vote or anything like that. We can make a suggestion and just vote by raising your hand or something.  So that's one way to go about it. That's been used before. If I were gonna make a recommendation to council and board of county commissioners, my recommendation would be to suspend work on this process right now, work on the comprehensive plan first and gather a neighborhood panel and let them work on the details along with staff as part of the redoing the comp plan. I'm a little hesitant to try to get into too many other details because as things get talked through at the neighborhood level, things could change. So basically I would say give them more time. Period. Now let me ask the staff is commissioner Brian. We don't have control over that at the end of the day. We're an advisory body and we have this until the end of next month's meeting. I understand that, but I'd say if I was gonna make a recommendation to council my recommendation would be we do things differently. Take a different approach. Commissioner Johnson. Is that right? You were recognized next, so I'm just giving you a chance. Well, I've been leaning from the recommendation of voting standpoint more from that, from commissioner Brian's standpoint. Maybe we don't necessarily have to bring what our proposal looks like. I think that what has been made clear is that there needs to be more community engagement. So we highlight and whatever the majority or whatever it is, these are aspects of what we've seen thus far that have gained, that has consensus and should be in it. But I think suspending me and basically voting no or whatnot, no with the caveat of this is what the recommendation going forward. And I don't think we necessarily have to give our brand of what the EHC means. So that's what I was thinking. But I'm on board with continuing. I was reluctant for continuation, but given the conversation, I think that that can work. Great. And I will just say, and staff may offer input, there's not a direct question, but my concern with that approach is that this started because the council, I understand, asked for a process. And if we come back and say, we are asking for you to just keep having more process, I'm not convinced that they will listen. And then we are not giving them an alternative. We are giving them this proposal. So I just say that I'm in favor of continuing today. And I think we should think very carefully about that because I would fear that we're actually then, it's basically just the same as a no vote and they can pick it back up, take it.  I appreciate that. But I think it's important for us to give them an alternative. If we have heard an alternative. I will also say, however, if we do continue this for another month, I hope all of you will continue to do your work and maybe have a little bit of a mashup because it seems like there were at least two or three working groups, very diligently working. You now know who each other are. So I would urge you to consider reaching out to each other in the intervening time. Commissioner Miller. So I agree with you and with Commissioner Bryan. And I think that in a rezoning, we vote up or down. This is a text amendment and we can vote it up or down. But we could also propound among ourselves a motion that said the best way of, that there's a process problem and work through it and say, here's our advice to the process problem. But if you're disinclined to take that advice and you're going to vote on it, then here are the detailed changes or that we think need to be made. Here are the problems, et cetera. We can try to come up with that together. Because I agree that we've done a lot of work ourselves and it hasn't just been here. I know I've been to half a dozen meetings where Mr. Al Torch was present and where you were present and Elaine, I know it's attended meetings. Spent a lot of time working on this. I do not want to proceed now or in the next 30 days in a way that makes everything we've done irrelevant. I would like for us to come together. And I don't see why we can't plead it as attorneys say, plead in the alternative. And I think we can do that. And by speaking as nearly as possible at least by attempting to speak with one voice, then I think we will give advice to the counsel that will be received more powerfully if we do not cancel each other out. That's why I'm willing to go another 30 days. And in the meantime, though, not just show up here 30 days from now and say, okay, pick up where we left off to start thinking about it. I did want to ask the staff a question about our rules of procedure. If I may, if we were to create a committee of about four or five people, but less than a majority, could that committee meet without having to trigger the complicated business of advertising notice? So yes, Commissioner Miller, that would be acceptable. And per your rules of procedure, you can from time to time create committees. It does say that from time to time as need arises, the commission may at its sole discretion establish committees. The commission shall charge every committee and every committee shall report on its activities as it's directed to do by the commission. Committee appointments shall be made by the chair in consultation with the vice chair. And I believe, and our assistant director agrees that a committee consisting of five or less would be acceptable. We would still have to advertise it, but that mode of advertising is not the same for these meetings. It would be like on our website to make sure people knew that you're gonna meet when you're gonna meet in case they wanna contact you ahead of time. Yeah, I'm not proposing a secret meeting or a secret committee. Yeah, nothing like that, yeah. So, and the reason I'm interested in this is if we don't do that, or if somebody isn't drafting something to bring us, then we're going to spend a lot of frustrating time in a setting which I think is particularly terrible for deliberations among a group of 10 or more people. This dies, I hate this dies, that we can have a thing where we talk to each other. But it would be easier if the chair and the vice chair were to appoint a minority of us to bring us talking points. And so that if we continue it, we have a point of beginning and we're not all working from scratch. I will say I am very comfortable with that approach and I think that allows us to have some of the conversations that are very difficult to have when we're here deliberating in real time, Commissioner Gibbs. I just have one quick question. When do we as a body get to vote on this proposal? Proposal. What we have in front of us is the ability to vote tonight or to continue for one cycle. But in addition, we can also create a committee that can then work with the staff that Vice Chair Hyman and I would appoint that would not be a minority or would be a minority of these members. But we could then do some work in the intervening time. And that I didn't mean to say the proposal I meant this committee's work. When that is done, do we as a body, each one of us get to vote on it? Oh, absolutely, yes. And when? That would be 30 days from now. Yeah, it would have to be at next month's meeting. Everything hinges on 30 days. Commissioner Miller. Mr. Chairman, if it's the appropriate time, I'd like to make a motion. You may and I'll leave a moment for debate if anyone has questions. So, Mr. Chairman, I move that we continue the hearing until the commission's regularly scheduled meeting in June. And that in the interval that in accordance with the commission's rules that the commission, Chair and Vice Chair appoint a committee of no more than five members of the commission. And the charge to that group would be to bring the larger body at that June meeting a proposed statement of advice to the city council and board of county commissioners on the proposed EHC zone changes, zoning text changes, and that at a minimum, that advice should address concerns about process. And that it may also concern individual items, as Mr. Bryan called it, product in the EHC. Second. All right, so this motion has been properly moved by Commissioner Miller, seconded by Commissioner Williams, doing as a long motion. So I want to give time for debate or questions, Commissioner Alturk. Thank you, Chair. Could we amend the motion to say a minority of members rather than no more than five? I'm not sure that, you know, I guess we could. I chose five because we have 12 members at the moment and we will not have 14 until the earliest that could occur would be the next meeting. Oh, okay, great, okay, great. Given that, are you comfortable with the motion? Any other questions, comments? I'll give you a second. I know, Commissioner Williams has seconded the motion. Thank you. Hearing none, we will call the question, we'll have a roll call vote on the motion please. Commissioner Williams? Yes. Commissioner Morgan? Yes. Commissioner Johnson? Yes. Commissioner Bryan? Yes. Commissioner Durkin? Yes. Commissioner Alturk? Yes. Commissioner Hyman? Yes. Chair Bozby? Yes. Commissioner Miller? Yes. Commissioner Gibbs? Yes. Thank you, that is unanimous. I would like to say just before I'm sure, we're gonna take a five minute break because I know most of you are gonna depart. We have a few final items this evening. Again, I wanna thank you for your time. As you heard, you should watch, I guess the Planning Department's website because we will notice when these committee meetings will be taking place. And we do want you to continue to think about this, offer your feedback, it's very helpful. And as I said, if you wanna connect with additional folks that you've not been talking to and working with, I think it's gonna make all of us much happier and it'll help us continue to come up with a product that I think we're all gonna be much happier with that'll help Durham. So again, I wanna thank you all. We're gonna take a five minute break. Also, how do you build? How do you, wait, so fellow commissioners can return to the front. Everyone else, if you wanna have a conversation, if you can move into the hallway, please. Well, great. So we have three items for our new business. And the first is Ms. Young with the comprehensive plan update. I'm hanging. If folks can go into the hallway, please, we're gonna continue our business.  Hope they're talking. Ms. Young. Yes, good evening, Sarah Young with the Planning Department. I wanna give you a brief update on our status with the comprehensive plan, particularly the Engagement Consultant. I think I mentioned at our last meeting that we contracted with Planning Next. We have, they have already been on site once in person, had a full day kind of working session with the staff. We have set up weekly conference calls between our in-person meetings with them. That's what they do. Give it a second for the noise to die down. I think if we can close that last door, we'll be in good shape. So what kind of a team are we getting? So the team we are getting consists of Jamie Green, who is the principal. He has a fair amount of time dedicated to this project. Sarah Bongiorno, I believe is how you pronounce her last name, is the primary project manager working with us directly. They have additional support staff. And in addition, we have Dr. Irma McLauren. These are the people that we met. Right, yes. Those names are all familiar to me. Yeah, those are the exact people that came. Ms. McLauren, is she from, she's here in Durham, but works in Raleigh? Yes, I think that's correct. Or works in... The other way around. The other way around. So we have met with them. We are continuing to meet with them. Currently we are hashing out the details of a schedule that we can agree on. And it looks like our first kind of public round of engagement will be this fall, probably in October. And I tell you all this tentatively, because obviously as we work through details, things may need to shift. We are going to try and do several things, one of which is coordinate our events and activities with other events and activities that are going on throughout the city to kind of maximize, get our bang for our buck, and also try and minimize folks' engagement fatigue of constantly being asked to participate. People get tired of this? Some people do. I hear you. So we're, there is a fair amount of coordination. There are, there is additionally, you may recall that we talked about a program that we're calling Neighborhood Ambassadors, which is how we plan to do specific outreach and engagement to folks that are underrepresented that typically do not participate. So like Miss Ortiz. Right, right. So that process, we still are working out the details of how are those people going to be recruited, compensated? We are working on basically job descriptions for them to make it really clear what their role is in the project. We are also setting up a communications committee and an outreach committee. The purpose of the communications committee is to basically craft messages, marketing, et cetera, to get the word out, create all the materials, the branding, those kind of things. So I think public affairs, PIOs, folks with kind of that sort of expertise to help us do that. The outreach committee will be a group of folks that tells us where to send the messages, right? So if we've got one group that's helping to craft the messaging, another group helping us make the connections, we have not yet fully settled on whether the planning ambassadors are part of that group or if they're like an arm extension. I'm sharing this to give you a sense of like, there's still a lot of little nitty-gritty details that we're trying to work out. And that is probably what the next couple of months will entail kind of figuring all that out. But hopefully we will launch with a public event in the fall. Is there, may I, Mr. Chairman? You may. Is there a possibility? Because for most of the people here in Durham, the concept of Comprehensive Plan is the one we're changing. I would love to have somebody like Paul Norby, who went through a process, a Comprehensive Planning process so successful that the plan won an award inside the context that we all work with in North Carolina because it's the same enabling legislation. I would love to have somebody from Winston-Salem come and say, this is what our award-winning Comprehensive Plan looks like so that we, because I feel trapped inside the Durham Comprehensive Plan because it is, my understanding of Comprehensive Plans are defined by its edges. And I would like to have somebody come and say, here's one from a city not unlike Durham that exceeds those edges. It's like, I wanna be able to say, oh, I hadn't thought of it that way. Is that a possibility? Either is it at a meeting or perhaps in one of our training sessions? It definitely is a possibility, particularly if you're talking about for the commission. Just the commission, at least at this point. Yeah, staff has actually done a fair amount of research at other Comprehensive Plans, including in the state. So it's not just Winston-Salem. We have, I think, one or two other good ones that we could certainly share and kind of talk through and do a little compare and contrast, like pros and cons of each, the way that each jurisdiction went about determining kind of their future in terms of land use and land use outcomes. We'd be happy to do that. We could certainly plan that. Thank you. Thank you. Other commissioners, questions or comments just on the COMP plan? It'll be good to have Commissioner Miller escape the Durham Comprehensive Plan with a little help. This sounds really great. I know we, as commissioners, have indicated wanting a bigger role of some sort, and it may look similar to what we just did on expanding housing choices, but I think that is a question for another time. So I just wanted to say, again, that I've heard from our conversations the interest in playing some substantial role. So we look forward to continuing that. All right, thank you. This would happen when I'm going off the board. Well, you know where we live. You, I hope you will still stay engaged. We have two other items that we added. We do have two resolutions for commissioners. I'm just gonna stay here because we... Fine, yeah. We have a resolution and appreciation of Ms. Cynthia Satterfield, who served with us for some time and needed to resign her seat a few months ago. I can read this for the record, but I can also... I think it's okay if you wanna do a motion on each one individually, but you don't have to read them into the record. We have copies that we can spread upon the minutes. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I move that we adopt the resolution honoring the service of Cynthia Satterfield and that the text of the resolution be spread across the minutes of this commission meeting and that at some appropriate time, the resolution, if it's adopted, be shared with Ms. Satterfield. Moved, and like Commissioner Maylor, seconded by Vice Chair Hyman. I know Ms. Satterfield has said that she looks forward. We'd love to serve again at a future time when it works better for her and we will make sure that she gets this. But with that motion in second, all those in favor, please say aye. Any opposed? The ayes have it. And then we do have a resolution and appreciation of Mr. Paul Hornbuckle. We will share this with his family after we adopt this. So Mr. Chairman, if it's appropriate, I move that we adopt a resolution honoring the service of Mr. Paul Hornbuckle and that we spread the text of that resolution across the minutes of this meeting of the Planning Commission and that upon the adoption of the resolution, that the resolution itself be shared with members of his family. Second. Moved by Commissioner Maylor, seconded by Commissioner Alt-Turk. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Unanimous. Thank you very much. We have one final item, future training. So this will be super quick. Chair Busby will remember and maybe even Vice Chair Hyman months ago, we spoke about having some trainings where they're not necessarily group trainings in the settings that we've been having historically where we have lunch. We'll still have that at some point once we're back fully at full capacity here with 14 members. But we would like to, we were thinking June but I think July now because of the EHC being continued to June. We were looking, Chair Busby'd asked me directly seven, probably seven months ago, Grace, if you see an agenda that looks like, can you put something on there and let's start having some people come from city departments to talk about different things that we asked questions about during the course of the year. And so ironically enough, I think we had a commissioner recently that had a question that falls right in line with what we had talked about doing and we just have not had an agenda where it would be possible. We have had such a full load. So that being said, June looked good but I think July will be the best time to probably have our first. We have these at HPC and we call them 10 minute topics. This will be more than 10 minutes. It'll probably be more like a 30 minute thing and then you can have questions and we'll do it at the end of the agenda under new business. So it won't be in the way of anyone here for a public hearing. And if they wanna stay and listen, they can. I think it would be an educational opportunity for maybe for the public if they wanted to stay and listen to the topic. So that being said, we'll start with a topic about the approvals that you have to seek after zoning entitlements when you're actually gonna move dirt and start construction. So we'll start with that and then we can build on that and then you can give us topics and if we're able to find someone to come and speak on those topics, we'll try to do a couple a year. Maybe we'll start with that and if we have time to do more, we will but you guys are so busy and your agendas are so heavy we're gonna try not to overload you. So just wanted to put that plug in and let you know that's something that'll be coming down the path. And the other thing that we're gonna do and it looks like the supply is starting July as well, Sarah, is we're going to, we are right now trying to set up a program similar to what Riley and a lot of other cities in North Carolina and other states are actually doing and it's called Ask the Planner. So before the planning commission meeting we'll have staff members here. The case planners will be here to talk about the different cases that are on the agenda, just those cases and answer questions about those cases for the public if they come a few minutes early. So we'll probably set up an hour before and be here and be available for that. So. That is fantastic. What about the beach trip? Well, I'm still working on that. So, I'm, you know. I suspect those plans don't actually include us, do they? I'll have to get back with you on that, Mr. Miller. I have a question. When do you guys sleep? Oh, we don't sleep much. You don't even wanna know what I'm gonna do when I get home from the sleep. Hey, don't. I don't know. I was just involving adult bear, adult bear. Two horses and two dogs and four cats, maybe, but yeah. Yeah, you thought this was hurting animals. I do wanna thank the staff tonight and always, but I think tonight in particular, you really were working with us and we were sort of in new territory. We really appreciate it. And I'll tell Scott and Mike the same thing, but it was really helpful. And so, thank you. And I think Vice Chair Hyman and I will work diligently and quickly and we will keep you posted on the committee that we got set up so you can all be in the loop on what we're doing and when we're doing it. Yeah, and anything we can do to help facilitate getting your room to meet in and making sure it's advertised correctly, we'll be glad to do that. So just keep in touch with mayors there. Scott, we'll be glad to help you. Great, thank you. Mr. Chair, I was wondering, also if you once you do appoint that committee, if there are other members that would submit, it would be good just to know that if we have feedback and we're not on that committee, then we just submit our comments so that you guys can work through it. I think it's a great idea. And I think we're just gonna have to create really good feedback loops that fall within the law just to make sure we can get that information and we can get something back out to everybody in advance of next month's meeting. Thank you. You guys are awesome. Thank you all very much for this meeting. I have one last and I'll be very quick. Please. On June 8th, that's a Saturday. Don't know what time is yet, but and it'll be advertised more later. We're going, dad is working with, I think it's the bike and walk committee. Yeah, yeah, that's it. But the walk and talk will be, we'll cover HATI, historic HATI and Edmont. I'll be leading the Edmont. And it's learned something about the history of both of these and especially in Edmont's case, to me it was a forerunner of what we're trying to do today with not affordable housing. That's just in my head. Compact districts, cluster districts, whatever, but I think you would really enjoy it. Anyway, I was hoping there'd be more people, but if folks on TV just come on. They'll watch right to the end. I know that. You're right. This meeting is adjourned. Good night everyone.


Hello everyone, I am an ARC survivor, welcome to my YouTube channel. Before I begin please hit the thumbs up button down below to show your support, thank you. Narcissist revenge, signs you are in danger. You may have disapproved of something the narcissist said or did, and you may not have said anything to them, but they're always scanning their environment for threats. They raid into people's body language, tone of voice, and facial expressions, so that they can always be two steps ahead, because they're terrified of rejection, abandonment, and exposure, so you may not have liked something about them, and then knowingly to you they were fully aware of it, or maybe you confronted them on something and they didn't like it. But if they're a covert narcissist they may not have openly came out and told you that they were angry or upset, instead they will bottle it up, they will keep it to themselves, they will repress and conceal their feelings instead of openly expressing it, and it's because they're cowards, they lack courage, but that doesn't mean that they're going to forgive or forget it, it doesn't mean that they're going to stop blaming you or being angry with you. Or that they're going to move on and stop thinking about it, because they're very petty and insecure, they focus on things that are of little importance, they turn molehills into mountains, so of course it doesn't take much to offend or upset them, and when that happens they will be vengeful, it will cause a narcissistic injury, and they will be seeking to harm you in return, and they won't be satisfied unless they have completely destroyed you. The problem is that because they're so easily offended, you may not even realize that you have said or done something wrong, and if they're a covert narcissist they won't even tell you about it, or even give you the opportunity to correct it, because once you've offended a narcissist there is nothing you can do to correct it, the only thing that will bring them satisfaction is watching you squirm, and even then no amount of suffering will be enough to fill their void, they will always want more, and what makes it really confusing is when things are happening to you, and you don't even realize that it is the narcissist who is behind it, because they never even confronted you, they never told you that they disapproved of something you said or did, which is how some target struggled to trace it back to its original source, because as far as they know they haven't offended anyone, but they will go to great lengths to punish you, they will make a great effort and do extreme things in order to achieve their desired result, because it's that important to them, it's so important that it may often take precedence over other things in their lives, and when they're coming after you, they will look like you have robbed them of something that's rightfully theirs, and now they're trying to get it back, because they view you as an extension of themselves, so they will try to control your appearance, dreams and aspirations, so that they align with the image that they are trying to project to the outside world, they won't allow your authentic experiences and individuality to develop, or for you to become a separate person of your own, because then you would no longer be a narcissistic extension, and they will be unable to get their emotional needs met, so instead they will seek to minimize and diminish you, but they may just condition approval and praise on you for conforming to how they want you to be and what pleases them, but with narcissists the punishment always exceeds the alleged crime, because they never satisfied, they never feel complete, because they're using you as an external regulator to fill a void that can never be filled, and at times they may be blaming you for something you're not even guilty of, something that they're responsible for, so there may often be nothing you can do to correct it, which is how the punishment can go on for years without any resolve, when a narcissist feels offended, they will go beyond what is normal and appropriate, they will react in a very extreme way, and they will always find a way to justify it, they will habitually seek to harm, intimidate and coerce you, and initially you may not recognize it, but at some point you will realize that something has gone wrong for them, because they will pile all of these unnecessary duties and responsibilities onto you, they will restrict and contain you, they will treat you in a condescending manner, they will publicly humiliate you, they will insult you and put you down, they will try to isolate you, and they will try to turn other people against you, and another thing that is especially common among narcissists is that they will try to target you financially, because they don't like your freedom and independence, when you're able to do things for yourself and make your own decisions, without help or influence from other people, they want you to submit to them, they want to be your only source of influence, so that they can run you into the ground, because despite what they're displaying to you, they actually feel threatened and intimidated by you, they feel like their false image is in danger and at risk of being damaged or harmed whenever you're around, so they begin to seek you as unwanted and undesirable, and then they want to discard you like a piece of garbage, they want to exclude you from a group or place, because they do not like or need you, you're showing them up, you're making them feel inadequate, you're unknowingly exposing and discrediting them by revealing their faults to where it brings everything to light, it's clearly seen and it stands out, you're making them feel inadequate and they don't like it, it's making them feel embarrassed and ashamed, so now they want to teach you a lesson, they want to punish and hurt you, to act as a disincentive and to discourage you, in the hopes that it will make it less likely that you will show them up again, because they really don't like it when you do that, they don't want to deal with reality, so they don't want to deal with you, because your mere existence is an offence to them, they view it as a crime or wrongdoing, and it provokes annoyance, anger and resentment in them, because you may be particularly attractive, wealthy or intelligent, or you may just be a happy and carefree person who doesn't have any worries or responsibilities, but life is not like that for them, which is why they dislike you and want to punish you, they want to overburden you, and they want to give you something to worry about, so that they don't have to feel like they're alone in their pit of misery, and they will especially hate it if you walk around with an error of pride and self-satisfaction, where you behave with a sense of accomplishment, confidence or superiority, and you're beaming with joy at your success, and you're experiencing feelings of pleasure and satisfaction, because you or people connected with you have done or gotten something good, so now you're very pleased with yourself, they really hate that because it's you and not them, and they can't be happy for you or share your feelings of satisfaction, because they lack empathy, they have an inability to share your experience, and they're very insecure, so they don't believe that it can ever be like that for them, which is why they will instantly bully you and try to make you feel unhappy, narcissists will also use triangulation as a form of punishment and revenge, which is intended to make you feel insecure or to turn someone against you, because they're very weak and cowardly people, so they lack courage and confidence in a one-on-one situation, where two people come into direct opposition, they wouldn't know how to deal with that type of situation, they can't stand on their own two feet, so they've got to bring other people into it, they feel more comfortable when they've got other people to support them and take their side, because they're very insecure, they lack confidence in their stance and possession, which means that they're not good leaders, and yet they're the ones who are trying to control you, so of course that's not going to turn out well for anyone, but it's intended to punish you and to manipulate and control you, the narcissists will also seek revenge by giving you the silent treatment, where they will show a stubborn refusal to talk to you, and they may even completely ignore you as a means of express content or disapproval, as though you're worthless and beneath their consideration, when in fact they're just angry and upset about something you have said or done, but if you confront them, they will act like nothing is wrong, they will ghost you, they will shut you out of their life in an attempt to stop themselves from thinking about you, because when they're communicating with you, they get a reflection of themselves that they don't like, it's making them feel inadequate and they don't like it, and it also acts as a punishment by keeping you uninformed, and by them being so unfriendly or emotional, it's passive aggression, it's an indirect resistance to your proposals or ideas, and avoidance of direct confrontation, because again they're very weak and insecure, and they like courage and confidence, they feel inadequate in your presence, so they shun themselves away, but if they feel like that's not going to work, or that it's not going to have an effect on you, then they will threaten and intimidate you, to try to make you feel fearful, to leave you walking on eggshells, to where you become extremely cautious of your words and actions, and you're very careful not to offend or upset them, and you may just tone yourself down, you may soften yourself and become less intense, you may minimize yourself, you may represent yourself as less important than you really are, instead of shining like the light that you are, because although you may not be consciously aware of it, at some level you already know that it's exactly what they want you to do, they want you to play yourself down, because they're very insecure, they feel inadequate in comparison to you, so they're going to have you walking on eggshells all the time, to where you're struggling to put one foot in front of the other, and you feel like you're walking on broken glass, because you're constantly living in fear of them, you never know what they're going to do next, because they're so easily threatened by you, so they're always looking for something that they can use against you, they may pretend like they're with you, but they're only there so that they can get what they want from you, when all else fails, or if it's not as explosive and destructive as they would like it to be, they will go all out on a smear campaign, as a means of destroying your reputation, and impairing your ability to secure the necessities of life, such as a means of income and support, or money that you need to pay for food, clothing and a place to live, and they will also run this campaign to get everyone to abandon you, so that you won't have any help or support, and you'll be left to deal with it on your own, they will spread lies and rumours about you, but not in a way that is done with little effort or care, it will be very organised and precise, and it will be considered very carefully, because they're undertaking a task that they consider to be a very important duty, that on a mission to ruin your life, a systematic course of aggressive activities, to take actions that will have serious negative consequences on your relationship's career, reputation, happiness and personal wellbeing, and this is really their core purpose, all the while they pretended to be your friend, was though they're unconcerned or uninformed, and it's something that they enjoy doing, they find pleasure and amusement in it, it brings them amusement and entertainment, which is how you will see them deliberately and vigorously engaged in energetic effort to ruin your moods, your day and sometimes even your life, because it feeds their ego, when they can turn a happy, positive and cheerful person who has a twinkle in their rye and they are hopeful and confident about their future, into a nervous and miserable wreck who has so many fears, doubts and insecurities, and has given up on their dreams and aspirations, I may not even want to live another day on this earth, because it's just too overwhelming for them to deal with, thank you for watching, if you found this video helpful please give it a thumbs up, share your thoughts in the comment section, hit the subscribe button to receive the notifications, if you would like to support the channel you can donate at paypal.me slash NARC survivor, you can book a one on one with me or my website it's NARC survivor.co.uk, thank you for watching and I'll talk to you soon.


We made it to deer Creek Calling an audible and yes audible is gonna be the keyword for this blog Oh, man. Oh, man. Remember all the forethought I put into Planning out the trail running gear in yesterday's blog. Well, it didn't work out Basically, you can see the dark clouds rolling in I checked the weather before heading to the mountains and it's not good Basically, whenever weather rolls into Colorado before 11 a.m You know, it's gonna be a bad day up on the mountains and that is one thing that I do not mess with it's lightning I Just do not appreciate lightning. I don't I like to watch it I even like to listen to it a little bit from afar But up close it is not a good thing to mess with in the mountains So I called an audible. That's the key word and actually let's do it question of the day When was the last time you had to call and not a I don't want to say a major audible but you had to call an audible in your training whether it was with respect to a workout a How far you run or the location like I had to do today even here at deer Creek I got to be a little careful because the clouds are already rolling in and it's not even noon yet So yeah, but I will be below tree line. So that is good. All right Supercross from Solomon or the speed cross five. What should it be? What should it be? Supercross, that's all right We're going to with supercross and yes first impressions publishing at 5 p.m. Today of the newly released Solomon supercross. This is brand you can't even get it Where I'm seeing it right now is on REI and I think it's available from running warehouse I'll double-check that and I'll link it down below if it is but REI. I know is carrying it for sure. All right Quick quick addendum to yesterday's or two. Yeah, I think it was yesterday It could be two days ago the first impressions for the Hoka Rincon Thank you for all the pronunciation corrections I remember Ricardo Rincon the picture for the A's and the Indians back in the day So anyway, that's where the pronunciation was coming from. I realized Ricardo Rincon But it's actually pronounced Hoka Rincon as in like con man, I guess so thank you for everyone that caught that for me. All right We're almost ready to roll out Up dear Creek gonna go eight miles today because basically once again back to the audible I'm switching today's Workout what was supposed to be today's workout for tomorrow because I did check the weather and it's gonna be there saying Absolutely, no precipitation in the entire state of Colorado tomorrow, which will be Tuesday, I suppose. All right That's rock and roll All right, if you've been watching this blog a long time, you know, there's three things in this world I do not like and that snakes Rye bread and yes Lightning and sure enough there was a good you can hear the thunder now There was a good bolt of lightning up there six or seven people Including myself just bombed off the mountain to get away from it and so I don't know what's gonna happen I'm going back to the car right now And it's starting to rain real nice real nice. Oh, man Yes, I don't like rye bread. The lightning is striking very close now So I'm just I'm out of here. I am out of here. Okay. I don't know if I even mentioned audible when I say that It's a football term. So when a quarterback goes to the line of scrimmage And he has to change the play right at the line of scrimmage because of the defense That's called an audible. So I just called an audible today a couple times actually and this is life Right, you just got to be flexible and just don't be afraid to tell yourself It's good to see another day on this earth. You know what I mean So it's just not worth it, but I still did get 7.7 miles in so we will take it. I was shooting for eight came up a Quarter mile short, but that's alright And there's blue sky to the west, but what are you gonna do got it gotta move on? Sorry about that. I hit the mute button on my audio pack a minute ago So what I was saying out on the patio is that I'm I'm packing again for tomorrow's mountain run I was giving a shout out to a gentleman mark who sent me a pair of shoes that I'm about to show you And I went inside the house grab the shoes and I'm gonna use them for tomorrow's mountain run So that's what I was that's what I was sharing out there on the patio. All right today's run eight miles almost eight miles 13k 1800 feet of vertical gain So about five a little over 500 meters of vertical gain and loss and the foot is feeling Amazing and a couple days ago on Strava. I labeled a 10 mile run that I did this I titled it What did I say I said? Not out of the woods yet, but I can see the meadow and I firmly believe that all right the foot It's just I actually text my brother today. I said about four days ago There was a distinct shift in how the foot felt and who knows? Maybe it was exactly that eight or nine week mark since the injury happened and it was a it was very distinct And I was like, huh, this feels different. So that is a good good sign In fact, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I just took my first step in To the meadow, okay, and this is exciting and yes tomorrow's run is gonna be another good test Despite having to call an audible today. And yes, it was a mini audible lightning That's miniature compared to a big audible where let's say you get an injury and you have to completely change your training Schedule or your training blocks for an entire calendar year, frankly So I'm actually gonna spend some time tonight Rebuilding my next training schedule Training block for the Pikes Peak ascent and later races into the fall. All right sound good. And yes, where are the shoes? Oh, no, actually, I actually put them outside. Hold on one second All right, I got them ladies and gentlemen, I got them. All right, so the shoes that I've Never worn before I've never worn this this brand before. Okay. You ready for this shout out to Salming from Sweden. That's right Salming from Sweden a pretty I would say obscure company here in the United States Not many people. I rarely see this company out on the trails here in Colorado So this is Salming the trail five Edition of their line their trail running lineup and it's a five millimeter drop I do know that much so I will get you my first impressions tomorrow of the Salming Trail five out of Sweden shout out to Sweden in all the Nordic countries I think I've asked this before but anyway I'd be curious to hear how popular Salming is in your area of the world All right, that is it for today ladies and gentlemen again second video publishing today First impressions of the Solomon supercross at 5 p.m.  See beauty work hard


So, we understand an awful lot about the hydrogen atom at this point. In atomic coordinates, we can write down the Schrodinger equation in this way, and it looks a lot simpler than it did the first time we wrote it down. That works for hydrogen as well as hydrogen like ions if the atomic charge is greater than one. We're not going to make a whole lot of progress just talking about hydrogen atoms. We won't learn very much chemistry with just hydrogen, however, so we need to be able to extend this to understand atoms larger than hydrogen. So let's start by thinking about what the Schrodinger equation would look like for the next step up, a helium atom, one with just two protons in the nucleus and two electrons. So if I draw the nucleus of the helium atom with a charge of plus two, and then I can place electrons, so here's an electron at some distance r1 away from the nucleus, it has a charge of negative one minus E in SI units or minus one in atomic units, and then I can put another electron at another distance away from the nucleus. So our job is to understand first what the Schrodinger equation looks like and then how to solve the Schrodinger equation for this system whose main difference is that it has two electrons now instead of one. So we can still write down Schrodinger's equation for the helium nucleus with these two electrons relatively easily. I guess the first thing to understand is the wave function needs to describe the probability of finding electrons at two different positions. So it's not only going to depend on the position of a single electron, it's going to depend on the position of two different electrons. And those positions are three-dimensional vectors, and so if we again think of those in terms of r, theta, and phi, I've got an r1, theta, and one phi one describing the location of electron one, I've got an r2, theta, two, and phi two describing the location of electron number two. So rather than three coordinates in our wave function, r, theta, phi like we had previously, now we've got a total of six coordinates to describe our two different electrons. So what that means is this Schrodinger equation we write down, the wave function is going to be a function of six coordinates, and the derivatives hiding inside of the del squared need to involve derivatives with each of these six coordinates. But in atomic units and in the simplified term, it's still not that difficult to write down. There's still kinetic energy terms. So electron one has some kinetic energy, and when I'm talking about the kinetic energy of just this electron, I don't need to worry about electron two at all. So it's just the del squared with respect to the r1, theta one, phi one terms. So del squared for coordinates of electron one. Likewise, there's a kinetic energy term that looks very similar for electron two. It's also just minus one-half del squared of the wave function, but these derivatives hiding inside that del squared are for electron two. So their derivatives will respect to r2, or theta two, or phi two. Schrodinger's equation has kinetic energy terms. It also has potential energy terms. So this for the hydrogen atom, this potential energy term where this came from originally was the Coulomb interaction between the electron and the nucleus. This electron still interacts with the nucleus in exactly the same way. So I can say that the potential energy, so that's potential energy for electron one, and this is now r1, the location, the distance of electron one away from the nucleus. There's a similar term for the Coulomb interaction of electron two with the nucleus. That's the potential energy of electron two. So far so good, and I've just converted each one of these terms into a term for electron one and a term for electron two for the potential energy as well. I can't stop there, however, if I'm thinking about potential energy. There's Coulomb interaction energy between this negative charge and this positive charge, between electron number one's negative charge and this positive charge. But there's also a Coulomb interaction between the two electrons themselves. So those two electrons are at some distance away from each other. If I know the values of r1 and r2 and theta and phi, I could compute r12 as a function of these other variables. But for now, I'll just write it as some distance r12, which hides all these other variables. And then the Coulomb interaction between those two electrons, that's a negative, interacting with a negative. So it's a positive energy of E squared, which is one in atomic units divided by the distance between them multiplied by the wave function. So that is also a potential energy term. So that's the electron potential energy term, or we could call that, I suppose, the one interacting with two potential energy term. So that's the left hand, the Schrodinger equation, all of my kinetic energy terms, all of my potential energy terms. All that must equal energy times the wave function. And that's Schrodinger's equation for the helium atom. So let's pause a minute and ask ourselves what it would take to solve that equation. So if all we had were these first four terms, kinetic energy one and two, potential energy one and two. If I hadn't written down the Coulomb energy term for the two electrons interacting, then everything would be fine. It would be no more difficult than solving the hydrogen atom Schrodinger equation. Because what I could do is separate the variables. Notice that this term only involves r1, theta1, phi1. This term also only involves r1. I can break the equation into some pieces that only involve electron one, some other pieces that only involve electron two. And by separating the equation that way, I could write the wave function as a product of two wave functions, a wave function for electron one, another wave function for electron two. And I could proceed exactly as I did for the hydrogen atom. Unfortunately, we have this fifth term which we can't separate. If I were to write down how r12 depends on r1 and its angle and phi and how it depends on r2 and theta two and phi two, turns out that's a big complicated tangle of variables that I can't separate into a piece that looks just like electron one added to a piece that looks just like electron two. So this equation is not separable. I can't write down the answer as a product of two solutions. If I could, if this term didn't exist, that would mean if the two electrons didn't interact at all, then we would solve for the wave functions as if I had two non-interacting electrons around a charge two nucleus. But that's not the way real electrons behave. So to solve for the properties of actual real helium, we need to deal with this interaction term. So it turns out even it's not that difficult to go beyond helium. If I start thinking about lithium, the only difference would be I'm gonna have kinetic energy for three electrons instead of two, potential energy for three electrons and then the potential of interaction among those electrons themselves. So again, it's not hard to write down the Schrodinger equation for any atom we like with n electrons. If it has n electrons, then the kinetic energy terms are gonna look like minus one-half del squared summed over each of my electrons. So there's a del squared term for each electron. Likewise, there's a potential energy term that looks like minus z. One over r i summed from one to n. The potential energy of interaction between each one of these electrons, I need to have. I need to sum over every pair of electrons i and j and then have one over r i j multiplying psi. Multiplying psi as the potential energy term for the electron-electron interaction. All that has to equal the energy times psi. So just as for the helium atom, kinetic energy terms and potential energy terms only involve single electrons variables. It's these Coulomb interaction terms, interaction of electron i with electron j, that tangle the variables together and make this a non separable equation. So we're stuck, at least in the sense that we can't solve this shorting equation on paper the same way we have for hydrogen. But it won't surprise you to hear that since we're in physical chemistry, our approach is gonna be to take an approximate view. Let's make some approximations and see if we can still understand the fair amount about the properties of a helium atom or other atoms, even though we can't solve the expression exactly.