Listening to, first of all, to Mr. Charles Sullivan and then to Professor Stone and most of the actual and Englishness, if you will, at least a few prisoners of dilemma, prisoners of two contradicting paradigms. One paradigm would be the national-statist solution of all our problems. This was the paradigm which gathered the solution after the First World War. The second would be the paradigm solution to overcome the national mistake, which is the solution of the European Union. Both of these paradigms, though, bring us the fact, the success that were linked to them. Well, what happened after the First World War was quite real. What happened after the Second World War was the European Unionists, but the national conflicts have not been solved, even inside the European Union. If I remember, the still open conflicts of Hungarian economic disasters, Hungarian problems, which are linked to this problem in Slovakia, in Romania, the largest of question of the Albanians and the Balkans, and so on. So it seems that even if you overcome the national state, you're not overcoming these problems. And maybe this is the correct of the state as such of super-states, which are states as well. I remember Mises and his proposal, I think it was in 1940, about a federation in Europe after the war, where he was proposed. It's a very beautiful proposal, but very utopian in a certain sense. He proposed a small European minimum state, which guarantees the human rights of everybody in this state, and which would be a barrier against using national states to defend the collective interests of certain groups against Albanian groups. This could have been a proposal, but the utopian evidence was that it's possible to limit the powers of the state, because the state has the tendency to grow, and to the Vietnam would not be domesticated. It can be killed, but not domesticated. I think this is one of the lessons that we had in the history of the 20th century. The libertarian answer to this could be apply the right of secession of all levels, from the highest level down to the lowest level, and then see what comes out of it. But if I see cards and proposes like realizing national states in the Middle East, as you showed us before in the report, I am optimistic about the possibility of my kind to learn something out of history. First of all, you asked about our questions, that each one has a topic so big that you've got a tentative analysis, and I can only pick and choose among the points, really, but so let me begin by saying that I don't think I accept what is, I've agreed in a common orthodox view that the first and second world wars were in the sense of the results of the flashing national ascents. The first world war was a war between multinational impacts and the Second World War, and the Second World War was caused by, first, the agreement with the Second World clash between two transnational ideological states, one that believed that the social class was the object of the truth, the object of everyone's loyalty, the operation of the object of everyone's loyalty. To call this common law, I think these ideas, common law of nationalism, seems to me to be a mistake. Secondly, I tend to think that what form of state we have and we live in is the result of history. History does not have a particular direction here. It's not moving towards an ultimate nation state or an ultimate national state, or that we live in states that happen to be the product of what people did before us, and we have to try to manage the conflicts that arise in those states as best we can or between those states. Because remember, I mean, a conflict, conflicts, very serious ones, it exists within states and produces civil wars, and civil wars, as the Spanish Civil War and the US Civil War have shown, that the US Civil War starts as a civil war and becomes a war between small nations. And that, effectively, can be very brutal. How do we solve these problems? Well, again, just as I don't think there's any, the history is supposed to be given us, and knows which way we're going, I don't think it provides us with solutions. My own feeling is, I think it's somewhat along your lines, is to pick up some words of Adam Smith. And Adam Smith pointed out that in the system of free trade, it's like the law of winged about it, he said, in the system of free importation and free exportation, the different states become like the different provinces of a mighty empire. Now, this is an extremely important insight on which it seems to me that liberals should think more, and I think they did in the 19th century, because what it implies is that once you have a system of free trade, then you have cut any necessary link between the size of an economy and the size of a state. And once you've done that, it is possible to devolve power downwards to very small political units. Small units do not become economically unviable in the system of free trade. It's just a rumor, and people have got, in a sense, not adjusted to this thing. Now, what person have who has not? So it's about Cloud Clouds. As you all know him, I know him quite well, but you know him, I suspect, principally, as the man who helped to revive the Czech economy following 1989. But I think he should be equally well known as the man who managed the development of all this between the Czech Republic and Slovakia. At the time, that was seen by many people, practically the whole international community, as a retrograde step. I think it now looks far-sighted and reasonable because both of those countries have benefited from the divorce. Slovakia, which was expected to do badly and was because it needed subsidies from the Czechs, once it couldn't get enough subsidies, had to adjust its economic behavior accordingly. It essentially got rid of the huge communist era industries that were holding it back and has embarked on quite a successful economic recovery. There is also, in addition to, I think, in addition to this argument, I would add that smallness is attractive in the sense that it makes states easier to govern. The larger the state, the more difficult the complex it is, the more difficult it is to govern. And the less control the citizens have over its enterprise. Whereas, as I think you all know, as a kind of a momentum to a communist erosion, there's a book pointing out that there are 14 richest states in the world, 13 in the small countries. The 14th is the United States of America. And the United States of America holds that position because it has a number of standards in modern space and unusually de-centralized political structure in the form of federalism. That is disappearing, in my view, and it will be bad for the United States as a result. But all of these opens seem to me to point towards de-centralizing power downwards in a sense strengthening ethnic states or the possibility of them, if they wish. But doing so in the context of free trade, free movement, not free movement, the population exactly, but career movement. And I'm doing so in producing, as I say, perhaps even the case of Europe, a large de-centralized Europe that is prosperous because governments don't give away too much. Could I just add something to that? It's a curious feature of the moment. Very curious feature when you think about it. That this is an age of ethnic disaggregation. There was a very good essay in Foreign Affairs three or four years ago. I referenced it in my book. I can't remember the author, but I'm talking about it. But he said that why has Europe been so peaceful since World War II? Well, it's been so peaceful because World War II, and we all know what a mountain of misery is behind these words, but World War II affected a terrific sweeping ethnic disaggregation across Europe. There were no longer any student Germans after World War II. And when you get ethnic disaggregation like that, makes the world a more peaceful place. When I was a student back in the 1960s, I went traveling in Eastern Europe, and I traveled all across Transylvania, the north-eastern part of Romania. I couldn't speak Romanian, but they didn't need to because I could speak German. And there were about 300, I think 300,000 Germans in Transylvania at that time. They were left over there from the Middle Ages. They migrated from Saxony in the Middle Ages, and there were a whole group of German villages, German towns. Every town in Transylvania had three names. It was quite tricky traveling. It had a Romanian name, which was the official name. It had a Hungarian name, because the Hungarians thought they still owned it, and it had a German name, because there were some of these Saxons around. Today, there are very few Saxons left in Transylvania, and some of these old Saxon villages in Transylvania is quite tragic. They've emptied out, and there were lovely old carved wooden churches that had just left going derelict, or gypsies have gone in there and went. So, where have all the Saxons gone? They've gone back to Germany. But now, why have they gone back to Germany? Well, obviously, after freer movement became possible, after the fall of the Soviet hang-up, it was easier for them to go back to Germany. But they've been in Transylvania for 600 years. Why do they suddenly just go back? This is an age of ethnic disaggregation. Cyprus, I don't know if I should mention Cyprus while I'm in Turkey, but Cyprus, Czechoslovakia, the Soviet Union program, Yugoslavia program, looks like Belgium is the next one to go to Turkey. This is an age of ethnic disaggregation. And under modern circumstances, your best shot at peace and prosperity may be to have your own ethno-state. Be it ever so small, and I'm sorry, Norman, this contradicts Norman's feelings about Scotland. But I'm no doubt he can speak for himself. I will. Perhaps the United Kingdom will also definitely disaggregate, who knows. But I'm just pointing out, this is one of the trends of the modern world. It's very odd that it is. If you were a thoughtful person in the 18th century, in the Enlightenment, you would see the world moving towards greater unity. That's the natural trend of thinking about the future. And yet, in fact, we're disaggregating. There are no more Saxons in Transylvania. Czechoslovakia is no more, and so on, and so on. Very odd feature of the modern.  In fact, it would have to be said, and Hans-Peter Schwartz for sure would agree that, you know, what I'm afraid did give it a bad name, was Germany. And the Germans started going mad when the Bismarck went and provoked everybody. Sometimes it seems to me, looking at that period, that the only sane Europe and those guys are well done in the second, because the rest, something had come to their head. But you know, apart from Germany, the nation states have actually really been quite successful if you've got one language that your youth have instinctively understand each other, and there's a case for it. So I wouldn't be hostile to the nation state as such. I must say, you know, you have to come back almost to an old-fashioned definition of the thing. In 1848, when all sorts of people started discovering that they're a nation, and what were called the peoples without history, began to emerge. And you know, these are the Scottish highlanders. I mean, I'm sorry to say, to a large extent, the Irish, the Basques, people like that, now everybody at the time, John Stuart Middlefaces, would have said, you know, Scottish highlanders, not in the farce of civilization, it has said the thin thing about Ukrainians. And there is a thing called, there is a Ukrainian dialect, but they don't understand each other from one bit to the next. And the middle Ukrainian dialect, funnily enough, is called Sochuk, which is the Turkish word for a sausage. And you know, the idea of such a thing as the Ukrainian, or for that matter, Slovak. It's, these things are, you know, to be something of a part of that. These are not, it's artificial to create nations of that sort. Now what we're getting now is a whole plethora of artificial nations. It began in 1919.  They were creations of 1919. And you know, we really thought up at the last moment, because scrambling down around at the last moment to try to find an identity and a flag and so on. I know something about the declaration of the Declaration of Independence of Armenia. They had to design a flag and they had a committee. And each member of the committee, as they were done, one, a lion, two, a bear, three, a double-headed bat. And they finally agreed with all the animals of the committee on the flag, which was known as the Zoom. Things like that are absurd, which is where, which allows me to say, a sculpture, speaking English. Not representing anything particular in this world. And it represents the kill of the sculpture, whiskey. And a thing like that is a bit more or less meaningless. Pointless, soft, proficient, rammed. And if it's, sorry, I'm talking much too much, I know, but I'll shut up in a minute. If the people left with the European Union's Copenhagen criteria, which allow representation of minorities and minority languages, I know exactly what I will be. And I promise to do it. I will be the national poet in Gallic. I will have a readership of 10. I will be drunk from morning to night. And I will take, I will, and I will be living off European taxpayers' money. And that's the sort of monstrosity that comes up with this, with these bogus states. They're only states, you know, in the end of 1919, which survive. The only states of that post-war period are, well, I suppose, you know, I mean, as a Scotsman, I regard the independence of Ireland as a distinct. I wish it hadn't happened. They're closer to the English than I am. And there's no country, which is, as it says, Turkey. And, you know, I think every most current degree and the electoral figures supported, that most current would say, we belong in Turkey. And the idea of setting up a separate Kurdistan and putting those seven languages together artificially, when the biggest of those 15,000 words, the Kurds are wounded people, the Turkish state has handled them badly. But still, they belong here. I agree with what's here. Still, again, just one thing. I think nation states have created a problem of confusing national liberation and individual liberty. When I was growing up in Turkey, we were always celebrating our freedom. And what we were celebrating as freedom was our, you know, formation as an independent public. I mean, independence is helpful. But like, North Korea is independent as well. So, that focus on national liberation doesn't always bring you, like, liberation. It actually sometimes created a authoritarian state which claims to have the right to do it anyway. And, you know, but that creates its own dictatorship. So, I think we should be from the perspective of individual liberty, like our empires versus, you know, nation states, which are going to be independent. It's not an easy question. But I think the nation states and moments of natural liberation have that tendency to collect lives and then, you know, make us happy, thinking that we all became free, whereas maybe we're not that free under the place like, yeah, North Korea. Can I just agree with this? It seems to me that what you're describing, what you're describing is independence at a particular moment. I mean, we become free. You have a, generally speaking, particularly in Africa, you would have a party called the Nationalist Party or the ANC in South Africa, which would be the representative of the fight for independence, which now gets independent. Therefore, it persuades a lot of people inside and outside the country. Generally, by the way, outside, before it persuades them inside, sometimes it never persuades them inside, that it's the representative. It is the sole legitimate representative of the people that either does the whole elections or it wins them off side of the table for a generation. Okay, I can see in those circumstances even make the case that there's a mass confusion between individual liberty on the one hand and national independence on the other. People who, what you might call, domesticated nationalists, domesticated nation states, states which have been at the national independence for a while. I don't think there's any serious confusion between individual liberty in those states and national independence. The battles between left and right over liberty versus equality and so on go on and they move one way or the other. As a matter of fact, I would say national independence is one safeguard for individual liberty in the sense that the nation state is the only reliably long-term democratic kind of state. It's very, very difficult to run a democratic politics in a multinational state and impossible in a cultural, in a multicultural state because you don't have a common debate which is necessary for democracy. Now that effectively means that if the people want to express a point of view, they might make that point of view politically effective. They have to be more or less living in a democratic nation state. That nation state will envious them that they may make the wrong decisions but they can complain against the black government, they can throw black government out. It's very, very hard. No one in Europe can throw out the government represented in the European Parliament. I mean, it's an impossibility and in many states, I would say, which are multi-ethnic, it's quite hard to get rid of governments because parties tend to represent national groups rather than shifting blocks of opinion. So I think the nations, I mean, I don't believe the nation, my view is that of liberals in the 19th century. We don't, I don't go so far as to say there is a natural harmony but there is a reasonably good fit between the battle for individual liberty on the one hand and the cause of national independence on the other. They're not the same thing. For a time, they seem to be different but nonetheless, it's easier to defend individual liberty in a much less nation state than it is in any other form of politics, particularly in multicultural. Right, well, one small little bit. Just regarding the case of Transylvania, the Germans needed it because they were hated by the Romanians and not even because they wanted to go to Germany, they simply left the country because there was so much of a risk. He sold first the Jews, then the Germans. This was the reason. So without George S. Cribs of this period, they would have continued to live there. I don't think that there is an inevitable link between ethnic originality and the modernism. So you're telling me they left him voluntarily? With another conditions of George S. Cribs, everybody would have liked him to leave this country if he had the possibility. The Romanians didn't have the possibility because nobody would have given money for them. Israel paid for the Jews and the Germans were paid for the sexes. So they booked the location and they left this completely mad communist dictatorship. I don't know that this panel needs any questions actually, but I have one for John Derbyshire. About 15 years ago, I interviewed the economist Gordon Tullack, who we know to this audience is one of the leading public choice theorists. He invented the concept of rent-seeking. Tullack was not actually trained as a economist. He was a Scientologist and not just a three-week-old John. And in the course of this interview, in fact, his idea of rent-seeking came from his study of the landowners, the landowners, who were basically extracting rent from the economy for their own benefit. In any case, he said to me in the course of the interview, this was 15 years ago, that he thought there was a future China that was about equal birth three ways. One was that it would continue as it was there developing some type of capitalist society in this crony capitalist to continue to expand. The second was that it would just revert to a centralized dictatorship. The third, and to my mind, most interesting was that it would just break up. He said that for about a third Chinese history. No Chinese, you know, is not a view of his empire even within the Han community. The language is so indifferent. He said for a third Chinese history, the country been disunited, he was talking about Hancao here, not the national minority areas. Most famous, of course, been the Europe War in the States. Anyway, I'll have to bounce, but he still hardly thinks of it, so I'll have this to you, which of these three chances would you bet on? Well, first let me just say that bringing up the warring states in that context, this is a bit disingenuous. The thumbnail scant of Chinese history is that China was really an aggregation of petty states until 21 BC, and after that it was an empire, or wished to be an empire. There were long periods of disunity, but the imperial, the idea of imperial unity was very strong after the Han dynasty. So the warring states period, which came before the imperial period, was not an intermediate period of disunity, it was the original Chinese disunity, it was the original China of many small independent states, and that was the warring states period, the 5th, 4th, 3rd century BC, was the last phase of that, and then the imperial idea took over. Which one would I bet on? I bet on a breakup, as I rather implied in the talk that I gave, I don't see how a demographically collapsing China can hold on to these vast territories that are not ethnically Chinese, and not only do I think China will break up, I think it should break up for the reason that I just implied, that I think that an ethnically homogeneous China has a better shot at freedom and enduring prosperity than an imperial China, which is what we have. And I say this to my Chinese friends, Chinese people hate to hear this, even my wife hates to hear me say, they say, do you think we can have democracy in China? I say, well, you can if you get rid of your occupied territories, if you get rid of Tibet, and you get rid of East Turkestan, yeah, you've got a good shot at democracy, and they throw up their hands in horror, and they turn purple and get angry, so these territories are historically part of China, and they're not, they're part of the Manchu empire, but the Manchu empire wasn't even ruled by Chinese people, it was ruled by Manchus. But John, John, what was told specifically about the Han Khor out there? Yeah, the Han Khor. Yeah, if you look at, for example, the government's historical act was of China, where you get maps of what was Chinese territory down through the ages. It's a bit difficult to pin down the Han Khor, take for example, Manchuria, is Manchuria part of the Han Khor? Well, I would say that it is, I mean, the idea of an independent Manchuria is pretty absurd, you can meet people who claim Manchu and Han Khor's sleeper. You're not gonna get a state out of them, although the Japanese tried it at the 19th century. Manchuria is now part of the Han Khor. So is South China, so is Guangdong Province, you know, the far south of China, where Hong Kong is located. That's part of the Han Chinese Khor, even though it was only incorporated into China in actually the Han Dynasty, and then not very tightly, Southern Chinese people, actually they don't call themselves Han, even Hong Kong people, I think they have a Hong Kong name here, but he has a period. They don't call themselves Han, what do they call themselves, Peter? Well, well, we also consider ourselves Han. Come on. You're Hong Kong, you're Hong Kong. In Hong Kong they call themselves Tongyang, which means people of the Tang. The Tang Dynasty was much later than the Han Dynasty. Now, theoretically that was part of Chinese territory in the Han Dynasty, the second century BC, the second century AD, but the people there feel that they really became part of China 500 years later in the Tang Dynasty. They call themselves Tongyang. The ordinary Cantonese word for China town, Tongyang guy, which means the street of Tang people. So, you know, you've got a problem defining the Han core. I would say, I'm no offense, I mean, I would say that Hong Kong is part of the Han core. The Guangdong province is part of the Han core. I would say Manchuria is part of the Han core. I think even in the Mongolian now is a lost cause. In the Mongolian has been pretty thoroughly sinified. I don't think that's ever going to go back to the Mongolians. But Tibet and tourist now are no way part of the Han core. They are no more Han than Lithuania was Russian just because the Soviets occupied it. And I think the sooner China breaks up the better. I think it will just for those demographic reasons. I don't think China's going to have the manpower to hold on to those territories. And it hasn't helped a bit that the one child passing from the institute in 1979 where the Chinese people were only supposed to have one child. The one child pass actually excluded the national minority. So if you're a Tibetan or a Uyghur, you could have more than one child. So they have better fertility than the Han core anyway. So I think demographics is going to lead to option three, the great one. I think that's an ellipse one. I hope it will be a peaceful one. I think it should be. I think the Chinese sophisticated enough to manage something like that. But somehow they have to get rid of these cognitists first. Yes, I've listened to all of the participants and also to Hirsch-Botz's comments, which I generally agree. It seems to me that there is not necessarily incompatibility in defending the ancient state. They're criticizing it. It seems to me that before the First World War we do have multinational empires. The Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Turkish Empire which stumbled into a war in some candidates of Austria being very discreetly recklessly getting into a war. But this was a pity because these were reformable empires that could treat minorities humanely. And there's much to be said for both of those empires. And for all of its faults, the German Empire was better than the Polish state that was created on its eastern borders and was treated by minorities very aggressively in the 1930s. But certainly the Austro-Hungarian and Turkish empires are much to be said for them. They were reformable structures of authority. But I think John and I would object to is what is replacing the nation's state in Europe, which is the European Union, which is a horror, which interferes in people's lives, which tries to impose multicultural lifestyles on them, which destroys tradition, today, or Christian morality. I mean, you cannot exaggerate the harm and havoc done by the Soviet Union and right sports in the attempt to regulate the behavior of nations and so forth, which is probably worse in Western Europe than East Eastern Europe. You can sort of escape the control, whether it's Poles or Nigerians and get away with being sexist or whatever, until now. So there really is certain, in terms of Western Europe, I would say there probably is no, to say, heartening or happy alternative to the nation's state right now. But I think one can regret the passing of empires, which, on the whole, did well dealing with the Hercules populations and protecting their religious ethnic rights. And it's questionable whether we'll be able to replace them. I mean, I saw the map that you put on it, and I was wondering, you know, what these railings are going to say to be this land away from them. And you're always stuck with minorities somewhere anyhow. No matter what way you're going to have minorities living among majority populations, but certainly, I think, you know, China's remarks about Europe, right, about the European Union, and being not a proper substitute for nation states. You can respond if you want. Well, I'm going to agree with you, but I agree with you, too, because I have certainly broken up. I'm in the two empires who mentioned, particularly the Austro-Hungarian Empire. And, incidentally, had it not been for the First World War, I don't think Ireland would have left the United Kingdom. I share, and as a son of an English mother and Irish father, I share enormous hostility to Irish nationalism. Constitutional Irish nationalism had reached an effective, reached an agreement with the British government in 1913, 1914 to remain part of the United Kingdom while giving room with the UK Parliament pertaining perhaps to defence and foreign policy, with a significant measure of a common rule going to double it. And by the way, more than satisfied, most Irish, what changed things? Well, the Revolution of 1916, which was a revolution carried out by lunatic fascists. I mean, the Irish of the 1960s revolution was carried out by people who actively wanted a blood sacrifice. And why? Because they felt that even a home rule and Ireland enjoyed a home rule would not become socially separate from Britain. It would become kind of West Britain, which is the slur used against constitutional nationalism. And they wanted a blood sacrifice in order to create a gulf between Ireland and the other nations in the 19th century. Well, and they got it, they got it over time in executing the 16th Revolutionaries. That did create a gulf. But by the way, the gulf that got a majority of the Irish population in favour of complete separation should feign in the 1918 Revolution one 48% of the close to the modern majority. So I agree with you. And my views on the Scottish nationalism side have said I would support independence for Scotland, not only on sadistic grounds. And I think it can easily be avoided if people are sensible, people are not always sensible. So yes, I agree with you. One final point. You are right to say that Eastern and Central Europe have been to some degree able to resist some of the worst moral excesses in the European Union. Yesterday, however, the European Court decreed that the Polish law allowing doctors and nurses to refuse to take part in abortions had to be overturned if this refusal was significantly restricted to the availability of abortion. Now, in effect, people's consciences are going to be coerced. And on this matter, I know that many people here probably support abortion. But the fact is I don't think that any liberal wants to coerce the consciences of medical practitioners to carry out a medical procedure that they feel are the opposite. Even if that results in the medical procedure being less available than it otherwise might be. I'd like to ask John, I was your second question, but it's all fantastic. The Chinese Communist Party might be listening today. They might have a plan and the plan might be to cement themselves out of power for the top-first century to try to replace the dollar with the liwan or renminbi as the World Reserve currency. And maybe maybe the dollar or even silver liwan would be fantastic. Do you think they might try to create a World Reserve currency or do you think they'll keep supporting the dollar? And if they do keep supporting the dollar, when the dollar collapses, could that be the final tool which brings down the Chinese Communist Party? In short, yes. I think it could. I don't think they will try to take over the World Reserve currency. They just don't want that much responsibility. It's a uneasy lives ahead that wears the crown, and they don't want to wear that particular crown. But yes, if the dollar goes down, which is quite like it will, it will certainly have a very serious impact on the Chinese economy. Going back to the theme of my talk this morning, I would never underestimate the power of the Communists and their military to control events. Having had my fingers burned once. In 1989, I was telling them I was saying to everybody else what they were done for, and they were done wonderfully from that. And by the way, that book I mentioned, which is my regular book, The Party, well worth reading in this context, he shows how just how The Party has developed a much more sophisticated form of Leninism on how they control everything. It's like a nervous system all through the country. Communist China is not the Soviet Union. So I see more of a long slow process of decay than the revolutionary people. And I think the Communists might even be able to survive the collapse of the dollar. I think the break up of the present Chinese empire is probably in the next generation of historical change after the collapse of the American economy. A question for Mustafa, even though I totally agree with your perspective on the schedule about whether modernization is possible without westernization, because modernity by definition implies anti-traditionalism and practice implies materialism. And if you look at examples like Dubai, I don't find a nice place where people don't wear European hats which I have to do if European's not wearing hats anymore. But I don't see a strong hold against entire Western sentiment. So I'm going to rephrase your question about development possible without westernization. And I think it's only the case that cultural development is stronger than material development but I mean cultural refinement of skills, manners and tastes. Are there any signs of autonomous cultural development in terms of being an example of non-westernization and modernization? Yes, sir. There is that, actually. We are now, first of all, I believe that there is something called non-westernization but modernization. Modernization is not westernization. And the distinction is one thing, making the distinction between enforced modernization and like self-evolving modernization in terms of different things. I mean, in Turkey, in a place like Turkey there was a state that enforced things and that was not even modernization that was westernization. Well, in Turkey we have this phenomenon that we call Islamic Ujwazi. In Turkey, traditionally entrepreneurial urban-educated class has been the secular Ujwazi. These people were the people who went on the French island and played the piano and we went to Montserrat so they were kind of westernizing. And traditionally the pious Anatolian masses have been the people who are non-cultural politicians who don't know which country they are from. But that has been changing and we are seeing a, first of all, a new urban middle class which is Islamic in this way of life and also in big cities like Istanbul and also in Anatolia. And this is a very entrepreneurial class that's interesting. And a European thing that actually made research about this culture in Turkey they focus on Qaisi in big cities in Anatolia in terms of production and trade. Their report was titled the Calvinists of Islam and it was, of course, very interesting because in Turkey there's just entrepreneurial business oriented capitalist and Islamic class that is in Turkey and the sign of that is for example a lady who wears a scarf but unlike her mom who would just stay at home and look for babies she wants to study economics in university and she doesn't drink the French wine but she drinks Starbucks coffee so that kind of can be a lifestyle and that would be, I think, a sign of and by the way we have a rival to Starbucks in Turkey so that's a kind of modern so there's something like that that I was going with and Turkey, I think, owes that well democracy and a whole history of multiple positions and so on but also to market economy a lot in places like Saudi Arabia you don't have that because you have the curse of oil and oil is not capitalism or it doesn't create a entrepreneurial class it doesn't create a middle class it just doesn't transform your societies whereas in places like Turkey where you don't have natural resources you have to produce stuff so you have to get the technology you have to know how to get to know how to you have to be rational to calculate your rules in the market and that rationalizes your way to look to the world and ultimately it rationalizes where you look at your ability so I think there's that thing coming up and that's more promising but the leaks which looks down on why it's so promising with this work or we should be French I mean that's good, that's the best style that we should be free but that's not going to sound to the world more but the more genuine we'll be more we'll have one chance of meeting Can I just ask a question one of the great events in the 20th century Chinese history was a thing called the May 4th movement 1919 like Turkey like Ottoman Turkey China in the 19th century had been waking up to its own backwards and to the realization that they needed to modernize and they were looking to the West and taking all the ideas they could get from the West and then the West broke their hunts with the Treaty of Versailles which gave big pieces of China to the victors in the first of the war and and that broke the hearts of the Chinese intelligentsia of this great new May 4th movement a great student demonstration to the King May 4th 1919 and there was a turn away from the West now in the second Treaty of 1920 likewise the Europeans broke the hearts of the Turks with their second Treaty and yet as the Chinese turned away from the West the Turks turned towards the West this is all I want to first of all explain why they were reacting differently well it's a great question before we turn to the West I mean the thing is communism like was aimed at modernization but when it came out of the middle of the strong anti-imperialist strain which has always lived and actually it has become quite dominant and flaky but your point is a great point actually it did not make the Turks turn from West it made them turn from liberalism because in the 19th century when you look at the Ottoman Empire they are fascinated by liberalism they are fascinated by the free trade and more responsible like a monarchy a part of the idea of the constitution and in both the Turkish influential world and the Arab world there is a fascination with liberalism in the late 19th century and all of these are not in great Arab history as the book titled the liberal age and Arab thought that as the pre-world were won by the Arab they look at how England is so successful they say it takes free trade and so on there are many reforms in Turkey to install the liberalism in the constitution and in both the system and so on but after the fall and after colonialization after things like the Serbian Treaty or after the colonialization of Syria and Iraq which we are hoping to be dependent on then there is a reaction there is a strong reaction to the west and although they get western ideas it's not liberalism then it's socialism it's a statism it's a Marxism which is a western idea but seen as an idea to fight the west like Maoism that's why the liberalism is now seen as what's actually so different it wasn't so different so liberalism condemned to liberalism they said liberalism is the tool of the imperialists to plunder our national resources so if you want to have a great conservative economy conservative, well-protected economy in order to install they said all the Ottoman Empire fell because it made important all the entrepreneurs and so on able to create our own liberalism so the clash between the west and this part of the world had a big harm to the flourishing of the liberalites hello could you all make some predictions predict the next nation state boundary change it could be disintegration of the states succession from war like Libya could break in half it could be almost anything but please exclude trick answers like Kosovo Southern Sudan where they might be tinkering with the boundaries exclude anything internal to Palestine and exclude changes in the boundary of the euro so so is it going to happen within 10 years or after 10 years so the next nation state could be boundary change in the world that will happen could be any context in Egypt clear words you should tell the next nation state just tell the next nation state where the boundary you don't have to say exactly where the boundary will happen it could exclude Libya what could be exclude Libya no I don't exclude Libya just Kosovo, Sudan internal to Palestine self-currency boundary I don't count so clearly, Texas the name is already in the game the obvious thing that you are going to be the unit will probably accept someone new quite soon I mean Serbia it's just the groundwork for entering I don't think you mean that I forgot to explain no I mean it was Norman or John who had already given the case of Belgium which was a great government too and who knows whether Libya would go again to join with France which would have done I think 50 years ago or 80 years ago and I think that is quite likely long term it doesn't look likely at the moment because of the recent election long term I think Quebec might possibly succeed the Quebec nationalism rises and falls and suffered recently from the first one were the re-creation of a successful conservative party which has managed to win the majority but at the same time that it didn't do particularly well compared to the PT so I think that when things get bad or when the immigrants to Quebec are probably assimilated they may assimilate to a French nationalism and that's another possibility and I think that a lot of places you might have ever heard of which nonetheless there is a significant secessionist movement but of course we have had some secessionist movements in the United States but I tend to think that that won't happen unless the United States continues to be even less and to move away from federalism towards a more more elitist state well I hope first of all they're really Palestine but if you're not asking that well leaving the United States if that belt is being fired and they could be Kurdistan independent Kurdistan in Iraq to begin with and God knows who that will influence yes I'm the one who brought up Belgium and that looks like the next one possibly I agree with you about and even Longbottom looking a couple of generations at it as I answered Peter's question from demographic considerations the continued unity of what is now the people's Republic of China has to be questioned more I don't know anything about Libya Sudan has just split hasn't it a few weeks ago north and south Sudan yeah maybe we get to go get to by force oh okay all right I'm just curious going in the other direction one thing that puzzles me somewhat is why Turkey does not annex Turkish Cyprus why don't they nobody likes this fictional independent northern Cyprus why don't Turkey just annex it I mean everyone will be ticked off for a while and they'll forget about it why don't they just do that we are already paying a lot to pay them something you know what I mean, it's the whole thing you think maybe that was really even for us we're happy with that then but think how much pleasure we all get from seeing how ticked off the Greeks were we'll think about it most of all that's given me a view I don't know why the Turks will be elastic about north Cyprus but it could easily get something independent it's not a bad place it's quite prosperous in its way more it's extraordinary unrecognisable rules very quick the 14 biggest trading nation in the world I don't know what it ranked like now and north Cyprus if you just you don't have the international community you can bother with an airline when they make a mess of that they're relatives to all the jobs running it you don't have a second view like nations you don't have this self important to the class and you become quite prosperous in the way that the class is equal for instance you can't live on the edge of the Islamic world you can make a lot of money out of it and I think too far on it they I'd like to read down tomorrow I do see the Turks they're not too creative in their attitude to the Europeans what is dreadful for a Turkic moment is applying for a visa to any European country you get 80 pages to fill out and they can help the Americans do it very well they gave 10 year visas to educated Turks no questions asked the Europeans make a mess of it now there's one answer to the beastly bureaucracy of the European United Nations and it's this preferably in that weather when the satellites are not watching they take a very ancient rusting boat and you fill it up with endless Kurdish families instructed to throw their passports into the sea and you crush on it at longer current and you get all the Kurds coming saying freedom, freedom, freedom you find that North Cyprus will be recognized in the Syrian United Nations tomorrow and the Turks have their visa arrangement with Europe going to the Syrian United Nations after that so I would like to present all the panelists of all these remarks on the period of states and nationalism and I would say that together with the people of Stoltenberg those who actually experienced our life's successful succession from the States to the European Union and when recording actually these memories what do we think at that time what did we expect it was of course generally here but behind now I'm thinking whether we would behave the same way if it was not Soviet Union but capitalist union for example without all these slides of history with the freedom of movement and freedom to do anything we want and it's very difficult to figure out how would we think we can behave but my question is from historical perspective to those who are normal here who were raised in nationalism in the 19th century what did you say what was the cause for it in nationalism at that time and my Russia is that maybe it's later they get into the expansion of various of social lives like education for example and of course if you speak in your family in your own language suddenly your children are taught in some different languages in different way and some different traditions and so on so maybe that is the actual reason why the actual national speeding starts to rise quite naturally against the state against this big empire because we are just all the states as a thing national just popular in the 19th century why I would just say that in pre-industrial you need a leap of imagination to understand how in pre-industrial how other way people were of the state Walker Comer's book I think it's called Nationalism he has lots of examples of people even immigrants to the United States in the 19th century being asked what country you come from people from province didn't know they were French and there's a story it might be apocryphal but it seems to me that this could be true that in British India there was a survey done in some country districts of British India as to whether the British should stay or go and they found that most people didn't even know the British were there it's very isolated very immoral looking rural life that encompassed most people before the industrial revolution didn't really nationalism the idea of the nation state wasn't really very relevant to most people it increased education increased education and in Europe there was a dramatic movement this was a fact intellectuals but please remember people in the past before industrial revolution they thought quite differently about these things they thought differently about ethnicity and nation I would really agree with your imagination that person has spoke in management communities and he explains how the invention of maps really created the idea of a nation because you think they're part of your nation and you think there's a country like that basically because you're seeing maps if you have never seen a map of Turkey you don't know what Turkey is you know that you're a neighbor you know you're a village so before the industrial ages when people were traveling when there was no newspaper when there was no school you just know you're a village so in Turkey the Turkish homeland in the 19th century when you ask what's your homeland they would say that religion is somewhere because that's his homeland so in the Turkish state the elites tried to create a bigger homeland because they had to rally troops and they had to give them some sort of defensive legal plan because the armies which had that idea was fighting for Bulgaria whereas you had to counter that to the idea of a bigger homeland that's your ability to do so you have to employ people so once anybody gets it it's like your neighbor has a better technology you need the same kind it's like once a nation state emerges and organizes society in that way and then you have a technology like printing these papers to create the consciousness in your society so to create a nation state was in one sense the only thing you should do to survive otherwise people were butters and if you don't have that consciousness you wipe it out this is quite a complicated question actually I think it begins in the nation state that nationalism begins with language which isn't to say that language isn't as sufficient to create a national sense of nationalism but without it it's very difficult to sustain that combination now you saw that as one of the two previous speakers with the fact that until you have a lot of communications a sense of fellowship is confined in a very narrow range of villages even from perhaps later provinces but once you have the beginnings of a lot of communications initially the newspapers and then the radio and an argument then the people who are within the ambience of this particular language tend to find themselves feeling the sense of common fellowship in this is dramatically illustrated in the case of secular nations for example like America and Australia where people arrive with all sorts of different cultures speaking different languages very quickly and to some degree by state action forcefully to some degree by social pressure they are persuading to adopt the language the country to which they come to feel loyalty towards the institutions of the country and to embrace the history of the country as their own history from somewhere else I always think the best example of this is the major general who points out that he bought an estate the estate contained the graveyard contained ancestors therefore these were his ancestors and the fact is that that's what an immigrant from the United States or Australia or the other secular nations does in a more self conscious way and in a shorter period in Europe over a long period of less self conscious people embrace common institutions and common history and learn more about some common lessons and they do have this made possible for a wider and wider stack of people by the growth of modern communication such as state radios and so on I'm sorry, first these radios and then radios and so on now the work of people like and also the the the tends to argue that the process of building a nation or in the sense of national identity is artificial and you know you can cite things like what's a scott being used by the witness establishment to bring the scott's within the abyss of the union and so on and so forth and of course the popular constitution is an important figure I think for a number of reasons for that but I believe that no mountain negrificism of that work is correct the process of building is deceptively artificial but it draws upon natural materials and as Burke said art is man's nature and statesmanship consists in trying to deal with problems in intelligent ways and one of the intelligent ways of dealing with the problems of Britain after the glorious revolution was to try to draw the scott's and the welsh in the Irish into a sense of common supernationhood called the union and that has been extremely successful and I was sorry to see it go but it didn't work to go, it wouldn't be because in a natural, in some sense in a natural way those bonds of fellowship would have been frail and the scott would have now simply felt different I want to make one final point here I think the American rise of James C. Bannett has written a lot on the Anglosphere that made an important distinction he distinguishes between the continental concept of the nation state fundamentally the German one spread after the French Revolution by Victorian artists which he thinks is an important thing but nonetheless it's not the same as what he calls the state nation and the state nation does not begin with the evidence but by a process of drawing people in by using the same common language by doing some of the things you were describing in the process these people come to feel that they are part of a common policy they come to feel the sense of fellowship and common destiny and they develop the loyalties to the dynasty which they serve or to the concept of the nation in which they are now apart and I think these things are in the modern world the way in which we have tended to express a collective identity most fruitfully and least damagingly because as Orwell pointed out when the nation of decay is intends to be replaced by much more vicious and unpleasant forms of a common political identity such as Nazism and Communism than the then the nation's most intended to be replaced I think we will end our discussion. I want to thank the panelists and there will be a brief presentation given by for those people want to see a movie that will be offered tonight so whoever wants to stay and watch this is free to stay and get informed about what sort of movies will be shown tonight and as for the rest again thank you very much


Good morning. Oh boy the volume's up on this now Good morning again. Thanks for those of you who stayed over from our last session Welcome to those of you who are joining us for the first time this morning. My name is Gary. I'm gonna be your Guide through Cisco's topics today in our sponsored track session. We just finished up with Lou Tucker We've got our Cisco advanced networking session up now We have the morning break and then there will be two more sessions Before between the break and lunch, so I hope you can join us for that To save all of you a lot of time snapping pictures of the screens All of these slides Will be up on slide share it within a couple of days and and Shannon slides that are coming up in this presentation Are up there now, so feel free to not take pictures of the presentation screens So with that I'm gonna introduce our First presenter, so we do have two topics today in this session and McCormick Who is one of our technical leaders on the networking side is going to be doing her talk on? Thank you We're both we're both suffering sinus problems today And then Shannon is going to be up for the second half of the 40 minutes talking about IPv6 and apparently Shannon It's a real thing okay, so With that I'm gonna turn it over to Anne. Oh, and by the way as you leave Don't forget to grab your Cisco runs on open stack running socks, okay They'll be at that door out there as you're on your way out, so thank you for coming and it's all yours Okay, great testing. All right. I think I'm on Good morning. It's Wednesday at the open stack summit.  I'm hoping to have oh, okay I'm hoping to have just enough to get through this talk, so sir. I may need to call on you in the front row I hope you know something about VPP You're probably wondering about my wardrobe choice, so in the Boston area. We don't have much for history We have a historic sicko sign, so I bring you the famous gas sign The other reason why I'm wearing this shirt is because I was really hoping for a green screen behind me So that I could just be this weird floating head talking about geeky things, but we're just gonna have to go with it Cuz that didn't happen Good morning. My name is Anne McCormick. I'm a technical leader at Cisco. I work on metacloud deployments Imstick. Well, let me start with what metacloud is. We're an on-prem managed private cloud solution Managed meaning that metacloud goes in with their awesome ops team Installs their deployments and then continues to maintain them going forward for things like upgrades And what I do in particular at metacloud is to bring in Cisco technology into the open stack deployments Basically bringing in the power of Cisco networking into open stack So I should probably also mention what the heck I'm talking about. So fast data and packet processing virtual but for reals So how do we achieve fast data and packet processing on a virtualized platform? For that I give you vector packet processing VPP and For a quick overview What is VPP? It's basically open source optimized packet processing it can provide virtualized switching and routing for the layer 3 it supports cloud NFV and SDN deployments It can run on commodity CPUs and this is really important because basically that means Customers for their hardware assuming that the hardware supports DP DK VPP can run on it and optimize things VPP was initially developed by Cisco Donated to the Fido foundation the Linux foundation fast fast data IO project Fido includes other projects as well And my understanding is that some if not all of them have something to do with DP DK the data plane development kid and Cisco is still an active contributor to VPP So what does VPP do if you look at my handy dandy diagram here on the right? You can see that as packets come into the nick the DP DK. That is such a mouthful. I'm sorry. I'm trying DK press the process of the packets throws it into huge pages in the Linux kernel memory then the VPP stack comes along and Takes the packets out of huge out of the huge pages But what's important here is that it doesn't take them out individually It takes them out as a vector of packets meaning basically a whole chunk of them to be processed Simultaneously and what that does is it reduces context switching and it increases cash efficiency. So this is where the optimizations come in And I wanted to mention that VPP is modular. So as new protocol support is being added It's very easy to put it in and There's two existing stacks today One is networking VPP for the OpenStack integration OpenStack, which we all know and love OP NFV, which is open platforms for NFV basically open daylight. Those are the two existing stacks What's the status of VPP? Networking VPP, which as I mentioned is the OpenStack integration is currently on release 1704 Which gave us L3 support VX LAN GPE role-based access control and graceful restart The next release which is coming down the pike brings us security improvements things like remote group ID support It also brings us better L3 HA multiple routers and VRRP virtual routing redundancy protocol VPP will be included in popular distributions in the future and I was told to be vague here so there you go and Partners are as we speak adding support for new stacks. I'd love to tell you all about this But I'd have to kill you so let me move on to what I can tell you which is VPP is available now on MetaCloud deployments So let's talk about VPP on MetaCloud. What is it by us? It allows MetaCloud to take advantage of L3 fast packet processing In the case of MetaCloud We use the N9K and the ASR router as hardware platforms to Really speed things up But we use VPP for the packet processing and the use cases for VPP on MetaCloud are for NFV deployments high performance VPN and Media workloads if you think about it the time when you really need Optimized packet processing is when you've got a steady stream of things or a lot of things coming in in the case of media You can think of like streaming Netflix or something like that video and audio are particularly sensitive to delays and to jitter so it's important to get the data in get it buffered and For NFV your big data kind of deployments. It's very important to get things moving quickly Okay, so let's take a look at what this looks like in green. You can see a controller node Which is where we run our services and on the left. We've got our OBS stack that we know and love And what talks to that is the neutron server in the etsy D process I just want to mention etsy D is used by VPP in order to journal ports that are coming up So basically things that are in flight before the work is done. It gets journal in it at CD So it's it's kind of what it's kind of critical Then on the right on the controller you can see I think I showed this before but you've got the Nix you've got DPDk you've got the VPP stack and on top of that on in the case of the controller is the DHCP agent So any DNS requests and DHCP requests are going to be optimized by VPP Now let's take a look at the compute host in blue again We've got the OBS stack and that's for Nova compute and for the VPP agent in order to bring things up on the control plane Then we've got our optimized stack for the VM Traffic so basically the hungry VMs that are just waiting for all that data are going to be using VPP Oh, and I should mention we've got three VLANs a tenant VLAN. That's our data plane Service VLAN and an admin VLAN those two are control plane traffic So let's blow this up a little bit now We've got three controllers and three compute hosts as I mentioned the VLANs are terminated on the N9 case switch Which goes out to the ASR router out to the real world I wanted to mention on this slide in particular SED again because we run in a three node cluster for SED SED is used like a database for VPP So it's important that it has redundancy and by running in a cluster It uses the graft protocol to provide resiliency and redundancy So what did it take to get to production quality on MetaCloud? More than fits on a slide, but these are the highlights The first thing was to get to Liberty MetaCloud is currently running on Liberty. So we had to backport Another thing when we were first starting out we had to clean up VPP constructs For times when VMs are deleted or migrated a lot of state was being left behind I believe that's all been cleaned up now, but when we were starting that was something we needed to deal with Tuning the number of huge pages was something we needed to do to in order to allow multiple VMs to run and The huge pages are dedicated per VM. That was important When we when we first started security group support was not there so everything was open not great But that's fixed now We had to do a lot of thinking about high availability So things like process monitoring those Etcd services that I talked about are monitored by system D. So even though we've got multiple servers in the cluster We have process resiliency as well So that eventually if something goes down the controller itself or an etcd process, it'll come back up and join the cluster We've also got pacemaker for the VPP agent and the DNS mask process that DHCP agent I was talking about the reason for that is that if the DHCP agent moves we need the VPP agent to follow it So we use pacemaker for that logic Let's see. Oh and making VPP aware of all etcd nodes in the cluster. This was a big one Let me go back to the diagram here So even though there's multiple etcd processes Down on the compute host VPP only had the ability to talk to one of them And it did that through the controller IP address Which means that if that controller went away that particular one or that process that etcd process Even though the cluster was still running you were kind of dead in the water So we added support down in VPP in the plugin to be able to talk to each of the etcd nodes If there was a problem with one of them There was a problem with IPv6 subnet support that's since been fixed is my understanding Something that we hit recently was large core dump file size. I believe I heard numbers and like a terabyte That's huge a huge file completely unmanageable We fix this through config settings by putting fewer things into the core dump and Also recently we had a VM restart issue and the fix for that was upgrading to QEMU 2.6 Current limitations. I mentioned that there won't be support for remote Group IDs support there won't be support for remote group IDs until release 1707 this is a bit of a bummer for us because Because of the way that the system acts if there is a remote group ID When that happens all security group rules are ignored and so everything's open Kind of bad news. So we're looking forward to having that support We notice issues with live migration the VMs get stuck in a migrating state so we're looking forward to having that fixed and Scalability I mentioned this because VPP has never really been run in a huge deployment and as you know as things scale up Issues are sure to be found So finally I wanted to give you something pretty to look at Let's talk performance. These are numbers that were published by Red Hat this past February and What you're looking at here on the y-axis you've got throughput and measured in millions of packets per second And on the x-axis you've got number of flows and increasing complexity So if you look with 1,000 flows and simple complexity what I mean by that is the things that were varied in the testing We're like source IP address destination If you look the performance is pretty similar between OBS and VPP and I wanted to mention This is OBS with DPDK if we were comparing OBS proper like plain vanilla. No DPDK Support against VPP The changes the differences would be much more stark actually But let's go with what we have so at 1,000 flows The performance is pretty similar But what's cool about VPP is as the number of flows go up and the complexity increases So you start changing more variables like MAC addresses source and destination MAC addresses and things like that OBS starts to drop off But VPP actually remains steady and the reason for that is because of all of the optimizations that it's making so as things scale up We're looking pretty good there, and I think that's pretty cool So that's actually it for me if you haven't already Please visit the Cisco booth in the marketplace meet some cool people and talk about all the amazing stuff we're doing and with that I'm gonna hand things off to my partner in crime Shannon McFarland And we'll also have some time at the end and can come back up and you can take all kinds of photos of her answering Your incredibly difficult questions. So So we Yeah, we look forward to that. That's good. So we moved from a hard thing to a Bigger thing so Talking about the entire next generation internet protocol in 15 minutes is always a good time So we're gonna focus a little bit on kind of where things are with IPv6 from a deployment perspective specifically in the cloud My name is Shannon McFarland I work with Anne and many people in the group and work for Lou in the cloud computing area at at Cisco and since roughly 2002 I have range from full-time to Part-time in the IPv6 world and you can tell I have some affinity to it based upon my Twitter handle of IPv6 So that's the best way to get ahold of me is on Twitter or just hit me at McFarland at Cisco comm And we can talk about your IPv4 woes So from an IPv6 perspective if you've been under a rock for a period of time you kind of understand You know nothing about IPv6 and about this thing called IPv4 address start starvation or exhaustion But if you've if you've been alert at you know any point in your Career especially in the last 10 to 15 years you know that we're in trouble on publicly routable IPv4 address space So based upon the IANA exhaustion, which is the the governing body that assigns addressing to RIRs or Regional registries such as Aaron They exhausted their address space a long time ago each of the RIRs Are now in what they call the last call or or their last allocation pool and so these are Very very difficult things to get so if you are trying to expand your business into an area Where you're going to obtain publicly routable space directly from a registry instead of a service provider You're going to have to do a lot of work to justify that so for example today If you're wanting to go and grab an entire Slash-24 of routable space from an RIR You better have a really good reason and it's going to take you a long time to get that space so You know that that really is a driver towards IPv6 And there's a bunch of links here based upon the main IPv6 page for each of the RIRs that you can get to now what this has done is this has triggered kind of some Strange behavior in our market and it is address market Kind of exchange has has been created. There is no formal process if you will For you to go and acquire IPv4 routable address space from someone else So what your actual Obligation if you want to obtain someone else's routable space is that you would go to someone like Aaron and the selling party or the giving party in the case of Stanford that gave their address space away and You would go and say We as Cisco are obtaining this address space that used to be assigned to some other company And we basically do kind of an agreement around that exchange of information When that does not happen we do all kinds of dumb things Right because now if you're a service provider for example or an enterprise who has obtained v4 Spacing or address space from another entity and you have not done the good work of exchanging that record information From a registry such as Aaron What happens then is that you can be blamed for bad behavior from an address space that you now own So blacklisting that exists in various parts of the world You could be you know associated with address space behavior that literally You had nothing to do with and so this creates all kinds of strange stuff in this market But we see it happening. I mean just recently MIT sold a bunch of their address space and Amazon was one of the buyers We have people that are selling the address space back And we have people that are actually giving the space back Stanford being one of those And the ranging price for this depending on where you are in the world and how much space that you're actually buying can range from $5 an address Up to upwards of 14-15 dollars for each v4 routable address So a tremendous amount of money that's going in to basically You know stall the inevitable and this is around IPv6 That that is kind of helping us ease this burden So I go through all of that on the address exchange part simply to point out that you really don't need to do that IPv6 used to really suck to implement It has never been hard to get v6 addressing But it has been very hard to implement IPv6. So we're going to talk a little bit about What some of those strategies look like specifically in the cloud? So real quick I want to do one slide of what IPv6 is simply You know just to do a level set so IPv6 is 128 bits long versus 32 bits long versus in the IPv4 world So it's a significant step up an address space It's hexadecimal based and this one bullet point is the only reason I ever got into IPv6 Because I'm an IPX guy from way way back when and the pretty much the only joy I had back then was being able to create inventive names through hexadecimal So you know face bad Cafe all of these great things that you can do in a hexadecimal addressing space is really what drew me into IPv6 and here I stand So so that part of it is cool You also in here a bunch of really cool stuff with IPv6 and this really makes it into a very very valuable Protocol when we are looking at very massive scale type of addressing structures the ability to discover your neighbors and Discover resources on your own segment the ability for you to have stateless addressing This is incredibly powerful in the mobile marketplace where I don't want to carry something heavy weight like DHCP I just want something to come on the network Discover its own addressing and be able to get to where it needs to be and this is really really good in a first Responder environment where you've got to set something up quick You may not have all the equipment to provide a stateful means to providing addressing And so the stateless addressing model is very important Other things that we drop off and gain again very much like the VPP versus the OBS story that and was talking about is that? We are making Optimizations to the protocol as we embrace it so dropping off broadcast and moving all of the things that we used in Broadcast converting them over to a group-based messaging system such as multicast Is a very important asset there and we can tell Based upon the number of Routable addresses on the top versus the bottom that that we've got a fairly significant size increase in our allocation So when we look at IPv6 from a cloud context, there's a lot of things to consider I mean historically what we've had to deal with from an IPv6 perspective has been focused on Upgrading your your layer three components, right? So routers switches Getting all the way up to layer seven from a firewall and load balancing and deep packet inspectors Proxies those types of things have been what we've been focused on But when you start implementing stuff within the cloud context, there's a lot of dependencies on things that aren't pure routing switching So those things such as API endpoints. How does how do you represent through a load balancer your API endpoints? How do you talk to a database? Many many things that exist inside the cloud that are very protocol-dependent are things that you need to make sure Our IPv6 aware Some of the big ticket items that have nothing to do with the actual direct Implementation of the cloud as it relates to APIs and databases or how do you wrap your implementation of the cloud through? orchestration so if you are developing code or you are writing orchestration and Automation and you have some sort of protocol dependency there That's going to be a huge gap because the cloud components themselves may support IPv6 But if your automation that deploys that is not aware that a protocol such as IPv6 exists It's just a huge gap for you So what we have kind of led ourselves down the path to is simplifying the IPv6 implementation in the cloud And that focus has really been on the tenant facing support side versus the control plane So we're going to kind of jump over to what some of your options look like As it relates to deploying this in the cloud So the two common approaches that I talked to customers about is to dual-stack everything Or conditionally dual-stack these components. So let's kind of graphically take a look at this So on the left hand side is the dual-stack everything approach This simply is applying v6 everywhere you have IPv4 right no brainer, of course, right? But when you look from a cloud perspective that is pretty significant Because it's not just about again L3 through L7 constructs that you need to implement But it again it is okay Well, what happens if I can talk to a database or an API endpoint on two protocols and but something happens midstream to IPv4 Right someone makes a bone-headed route You know change and v4 blacks out but v6 is still there. What is it going to work? You know functionally is it going to work the way I expect it to? So there's a lot of research that you have to go through to ensure that these particular things work in all cases So the one on the left looks like the great approach But it's going to be a painful one for you unless you really really do a good job of kind of testing this out before you implement it Where the vast majority of customers are going especially in the enterprise is what we call the conditional dual stack environment And this is where they leave their control plane or their service tier alone their API endpoints their databases their automation to get the cloud in place They're leaving with v4 today But anything that faces or is consumed by the tenant is going to be a dual stack or an IPv6 only implementation And this is really what matters right because most of the time the tenant is coming and saying I want people to consume my Application regardless of the protocol they're using so please enable that functionality So my tenant facing environment to include access to the internet is really really where we want to focus our Implementation either in a dual stack or in a v6 only type of environment And so that's really where most of our folks are deploying Now when we look at IPv6 from an open stack perspective, we've got really strong support We've had some pretty good support since kilo, but it is matured and matured and matured And I'm proud to say kind of jumping to that last bullet point that there's people in this room And outside of this room from Cisco that have been really driving the IPv6 support model In each of our releases and some of those include all of the addressing structures that we have So we've got slack or stateless address auto configuration. We've got both models of DHCP And we also have IPv6 prefix delegation, which is super important, especially in the the service provider realm Now when I kind of parenthetically, you know say mostly there on the control plane components It does depend it depends on which databases you're using and which types of HA models Are you running pacemaker or VRRP or HSRP or keep alive D and which versions of those types of things? So when you start to glue your control components together You really need to do a good job of understanding what the IPv6 support model looks like and then Make a very conscientious decision on do you dual stack those or do you go ahead and kill v4 and just do v6? Because dual stack sounds amazing But again when you have two abilities to talk to one thing From a path perspective and one of them goes away. You can't absolutely see very odd behavior so some other things that are listed there security group LBAS support and and and so forth so You know wrapping up here the things that we want to kind of walk away from is IPv6 is here It's very strong in the open-sat community and if you don't have a plan for it, you're late And so if you it is never too late to do something about it But if you're if you're being shocked by the first time with IPv6 in the cloud and here today Then you should be concerned because it's going to take you a long time to get this running And you need to get moving on it pretty quick IPv6 with your standard L3 and L7 components is not your issue It is your developmental practices in the tooling Around how you implement IPv6 and how your applications work in that realm is really where you need to be focused Jumping down into here is again. You need to make a decision around whether you're going to do full control plane support Are all of your cloud components going to be v6 only or dual stacked or none of the above And from an application development perspective Do you write your applications to be protocol agnostic versus protocol aware? So the idea you know that you really want to go through in your application deployment is I don't care what the protocol is right Versus bolt-on IPv6 to all of your calls and so forth And so that's that's a conscientious decision that you have to go with The last part here is don't be paralyzed by the size of the job Start small start simple and start on the tenant facing side of your cloud And then just start piecing the components together and you'll end up with IPv6 before you know it All of the slides in in my particular case My deck there are probably 20 or 30 more slides that you'll want to get which are all the links to Deploying IPv6 inside of open stack And many many other things and I think there's some extra slides in there from and as well So you definitely want to get a copy of our decks Which are really kind of take you to that next level of depth that we have So I'm done with my part and if we want to take any questions I think we have a little bit of time. We have a few minutes for Q&A if Anybody's got a cue they've I don't even want to have to say it at that point. Yeah No So we did such a thorough job of two very very large complex Technologies in 15 minutes that you have no questions. That's amazing You're a lot better than I thought and Oh, no, I still got a mic on Nothing you may be able to go to break early. I'm impressed You know the one thing I'll say is it They haven't been all that spot-on with the coffee. So you might want to get yours get your line If there are no questions again all the slides are up on slide share for Shannon and now The rest of the slides for our other presenters will be up in a couple of days Thank you all for coming. We've got two more sessions after the morning break on NFV and container networking So come back for those On your way out stage right you can grab your Runs on open stack Running socks. Yeah, I know incredibly clever, right? Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you all for coming. We'll see you after the break


Okay, can you hear me? Can you hear me? Yeah. Okay. Good morning everybody. Thanks for coming, even if it's lunch time Today on stage with me Federico Minzoni lead developer at enter. My name is Mariano Cunietti I am the CTO at enter. Enter is a company based in Italy. We run a public cloud name enter cloud suite. It's Multi-region OpenStack based cloud it's based entirely on an open source tech We have regions in Milan, Frankfurt and Amsterdam and on the last June enter was acquired by a big hedge fund An Italian hedge fund that funded the company name Iridios Who is acquiring a lot of infrastructure companies in Italy. So big plans for tomorrow. So What we have done is basically we have done a lot of automation during the last years and We have developed a set of tools that we wanted to share With the people with the with the community Over github. So if you go on github.com it's the last enter class cloud suite you will find the Terraform modules we have developed and the Ansible modules to run our infrastructures and the infrastructures we run for the customers, but over the years Basically, we have discovered that Customers want to handle Customers are software developers mainly and they want to handle and to manage their own CICD at home on-prem So we decided to address another problem We wanted to solve that in order to interact with an infrastructure You need to deploy the build you receive from the developers. So we developed a tool By using basically the the automation scripts We have developed on Terraform and Ansible to provide a cloud independent Automation tools for managing develop the deployments. How does it work? This tool is called the Automium. We are Europeans we strive for a cloud operators based in Europe for Europe so Automium is the symbol of Europe and Plus automation comes to Auto Automium. So basically Automium is a dashboard or an API set You can use both that interacts with gith hence the term githops which was Copyright here invented by we've works and basically is when you define your infrastructures and you store everything on gith so you are basically doing governance and disaster recovery, etc. All at once using gith. So Automium interacts with these scripts generates them on the fly just getting the information from the user the Configurations and just generating them and storing them into the gith into gith which can be our gith or customers gith on-premise So what does it do next? Okay It basically calls an agent which is set inside the customers tenant on the chosen provider In this case, it's an open stock base, but we have plans to roll out integration with Terraform with VMware and AWS Can be more in the future but basically it startups a VM inside the tenant and Starts to deploy or the infrastructure you need by infrastructure. I mean balancers web servers caching servers database clusters file system clusters Monitoring tools logging tools or whatever it takes to have a proper infrastructure running and monitor all the time. So We will switch to the demo we are very short on time. So you will excuse us if we will Move very quickly around. So basically, this is the interface. We in Automium You have your infrastructure basically basically you have your desktop where you can choose The components you want to run you just drag and drop them into this tool The the web UI is intended for non-experienced users You will see afterwards how you can interact directly with the code and configurations. So basically You just drag and drop them here. We have a mysql cluster with the orchestrator to run automation of master slave replica and Federico now is Showing some components, but the first thing we want to do is the most time-consuming one which is starting centralized logging and monitoring services logging is based on elastic search and Plus we will provide out-of-the-box Kibana and the monitoring is done using Prometheus You can also choose influx DB or whatever you are used to plus Grafana So Federico started the machine now In later on we will show you the open stack horizon interface so you we can see the machines start in booting and and start in the services when you launch a service you are basically defined in the cluster and you You can define cluster-wise that you have you want to have the logging and the monitoring defined for that service by doing this Regardless of the number of nodes you are running in the cluster You will get all these nodes configure configured with an agent specifically for that kind of centralized service to just push all the logs all the metrics Towards your centralized system and you will see them in the dashboard on this view You can see that there is a very simple code for defining what you're doing in the configuration Web form you will be able to Cut and paste your own configurations. You already are running on your premise. So Let's let's move on and add a very simple docker cluster So we can run an application the demo application excuse us will be the usual WordPress because for sake of time we had to To be very easy on the demo Also here we added the monitoring and logging and so now you can apply all the changes you can deploy them and This creates a restore point. So in the future whatever changes you may Apply you can revert to the last stable situation. So you can see the button restore Which means there you have a restore point. You will have more in the future Once you apply more changes This view shows you that these files are creating to git and they just Collect all the information you have a Inserted in the forms or in as code or as design and basically they are stored into git and you can Safely review them or change them. You can also change them in this view You can see the not only the logical architecture, but also the physical architecture. We are waiting here for the private IPs to Show up Please note that you won't see from the UI a console node a console cluster Maybe you can decide whether it's a single node or a cluster of three console is made to provide Auto-discovery so basically every service you bring up Regardless of the number of nodes is registered into console and provides information to the load balancer and to the any kind of balancer you can use so Auto-scaling is basically seamless the balancer knows Automatically when you are adding or removing nodes so you can see console here and information. So you have my SQL orchestrator This is the horizon view as I told you before so you can see the topology. We are bringing up and The instance is Okay Let's move on. Okay. We are very short on time. So you you see the IPs popping up So the main goal for Automium was that we have studied a lot about DevOps Movement principles best practices tools and we thought that the average customer in Italy and Europe is not Ready to just jump on it Alone and they need someone just to bring them take them by the hand and bring them to do something different Very easily so only then they can choose whether they want to study it to investigate and to go more in depth So now you can see from Kibana We are accessing the data for logging stored in Elasticsearch. You can mangle the data You can build your own dashboard some of the dashboards we provide them already baked in So basically you can Instantly see what's going on on your systems this kind of activity usually takes weeks for an experienced system administrators or even experienced system administrators that don't have a complete knowledge of all the domains into cloud native infrastructures so So back here now we are ready to deploy our balancer which is of course The best load balancer round which is HAProxy We define the password the secrets are not stored into Git, of course They are stored into vault. So basically they are referenced from the code from vault This is another machine. You won't see your one managed from here, but you will see from the OpenStack interface So now we are deploying the load balancer and And in a few seconds we will be able so this is the actual Complexity of what we have just deployed so basically the operations take a lot of time to study understand fix and iterate over Manual tasks that can bring to a lot of defects what we want the problem We wanted to solve is to provide an automation tool to do things very quickly very easily and Almost defect-free. I hope so Just from in 20 minutes. Okay, so today the demo is challenging, but it's a very good Opportunity to show what we can do So now it's up and running. Yeah, it's coming Okay You want to show We are waiting for the load balancer the balancer is not coming up. Okay. Let's go to the to the Grafana part in meantime, okay So it's that okay, it's here So the god of demo has looked up on us So basically here you have your WordPress and you can start configuring it and you have my SQL cluster already running So everything is working. So I still have a job is he still has a job and so very It was very I think it was very clear what we can do here the So this is Grafana Basically, you can see instantly from from day zero you can see what's going on on your system So you can monitor them because whenever you have a problem if you don't have these you basically are blind I know it may be Odd for many of you, but for the customers we are seeing they usually have problems They don't even know where the problem is what's going on. How much is that big how much how big is the problem? Etc. So here you can start and have everything in place and do whatever you want with your infrastructure so I Think this this is also more almost it how much time? Really? So if you have any question or something Anybody has a question? Okay Yeah, okay, so The question is if the project is open source the plans are to open source it basically all the tools we are using are terraform Ansible a console vault Docker etc. So the components are all open source The tool itself is not yet open source We are discussing with the legal team in order to provide it open source We want it by the end of the year. I can be pretty sure it will be open source The the basic things about this is are we want to enable multi cloud because these tools usually come as a service inside the provider and we want it to be out of the provider and The other thing is we have to deploy stuff into the tenant because once you centralize it. It's not more Provider independent. So yes being open source is one part of that. So users can Just install it that on their premise, especially the the ones that in the future. We want to run it on against the VMware VMware hypervisors we don't think that cloud depends very much on the hypervisors the cloud cloud is about this kind of operation automation and distribution basically So we think that with this tool can help people jump on the cloud with cloud native architectures easily Any other question? Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you for coming if you want to know more about Automium we have a booth right over there the last one in the dark corner in front of the table. Thank you very much Thank you


What's up everybody takedown here welcome back to the channel today I'm gonna be sharing something with you that I never thought was gonna be on my channel And it is a video about politics now as you guys know I live in Canada. I live in Ontario So this is something that interests me. That's why I wanted to share it with you guys Some people are for it. Some people are against it So I just wanted to share it and share my opinion on the situation So recently Doug Ford announced he's going to be planning on cutting Toronto City Council in half Doug Ford is Ontario's premier. So he does have the right to do it He plans on cutting the council in half from 47 down to 25 seats, which is a big cut It's something that in my opinion. It's never really been done before by doing this. He will be saving taxpayers 25 million dollars in the city of Toronto Which is a lot of money Like I said, he does have the right to do it since he is Ontario's premier And a lot of people are trying to fight it a lot of people in Toronto Are bickering right after the announcement came because if you're on the receiving end of a big cut like this That's like saying you have a 50 50 chance of losing your job So obviously you're going to try to defend yourself and you're going to try to make this not happen I do understand that but in the same sense. He is Ontario's premier He does have the right to change any Municipality in Ontario if he so wishes the other cities in Ontario are now scared thinking he will do the same A lot of people thought he will be coming for Ottawa next and that is just not the case Which it is kind of funny because Ottawa's mayor is now against the cuts. He does not think in 2018 We should be cutting council staff back then whenever he was running for Ottawa mayor He wanted to cut Ottawa staff Not in half but from 25 down to 17 Which is a mild cut but because he was only running for mayor He had to get approved from everybody at city hall and nobody approved it So he wanted to make the cuts back then but now in 2018 when Doug Ford somebody that has the power to make these cuts He doesn't think they should be allowed to Which to me doesn't make sense because you were just going to do it years ago You just were out voted because you were not able to do it because you did not have the power to do it So it is pretty interesting in my opinion. Honestly, I would say Go ahead and cut them Toronto is Canada's biggest city But if it's going to save Toronto 25 million dollars, I think it is for the better But that is just my opinion. I want to see what you guys think Comment down below what your opinions are of this. Are you for or against this decision that Doug Ford is going to be doing? He doesn't plan on cutting it until october back when of the elections happen But Toronto says they're going to be fighting it in the meantime, which is something I don't think they can legally do I don't think they understand that he has the power to make these changes So if he does go through with it, it's going to happen. There's nothing they can really do about it But I want to see what you guys think comment down below and I'll see you guys in the next video Please take care. Peace


Hey everybody forest here, I'm ripping a box of 2022 absolute football hobby for Kristen s. Thanks, Kristen a good look Maybe there'd be a kaboom or an explosive here haven't seen explosive yet On the checklist Here we go big let's see a nice RPA is nice autos nice though numbers yeah short print Vante Adams Jalen waddle rookie Logan Hall number 223 of 275 a Skymore rookie premier Jersey auto 55 out of 99 Solid hit solid start stargazing Kyler Murray numbered 71 of 75 Call-of-duty stargazing It's going pretty well jack-o Hits have a lot of fun in chat for the most part Yeah Well, we got a little full feisty at certain points Mariota and Lawrence Barry Sanders Jersey numbered to 99 groundhogs a rookie auto numbered 45 of 100 Fadarian Mathis rookie numbered six of 100 Man, man, what's up? What's up? Barry Otto. I'm sure he has autos in here. I would imagine he would Saquon McCordy, we've got a Marcus Mariota dual relic to 49 Tools of the trade got an AJ Brown signature Standouts two out of five lice nice nice low numbered hit for the Eagles or for for Kristen Nice AJ Brown though to a five and a car to 75 Thanks again for the order we'll get these out to you