Welcome to the Drum History podcast. I'm your host, Bart Van Der Zee, and today I'm joined by Steve Fiddick, who is a jazz drummer, composer, author, and educator. Steve, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Bart. I appreciate the opportunity. Sure. You're the expert here on Joe Morello because you took lessons with him, right? And we're going to learn a lot about Joe today. Yeah, I had the good fortune of meeting and studying with Joe dating back to 1987.  And I'm excited to learn about how that all came to be and what it did for you. But before we sort of get into that, you know, your lessons with Joe, let's talk a little bit about who Joe Morello is for someone who maybe doesn't know anything about him and they're just learning about him. So, why don't you tell us who Joe Morello is? Well, Joe Morello is one of the most influential jazz drummers of his generation. He's best known for his work with the Dave Brubeck quartet, which he joined in October of 1956. And he spent approximately 12 years with the quartet through 1967. And he's on the famous recording Time Out, which was recorded in 1959. And he was the drummer on the very famous composition Take Five, which was a very unique composition. It was a drum solo feature written by Paul Desmond, the alto saxophonist in the group. And it was a composition written for Joe specifically to end concerts with the Dave Brubeck quartet. Joe told me in lessons that it was really a throwaway tune. It was a rhythm that Joe would work out on backstage before concerts in five, four time, hence the name Take Five. So it was this rhythm that Joe had, kind of a warm-up rhythm that he used on the drum pad. And, you know, he would pester Dave and Paul to write a tune based on this rhythm to feature himself. And Paul finally came up with two themes, which became the A section and then the bridge of the tune. And it's a unique drum solo because it's the first drum solo in jazz history that's accompanied by a piano vamp. Wow, that's so cool. And so it was really about, it was a solo that had less to do about technical speed and had a lot more to do with space and phrasing and playing over the bar. Yeah, yeah. And now today, when you hear jazz recordings today, modern jazz, many of the drum solos that you'll hear on recordings are accompanied by vamps, bass vamps, guitar, bass vamps, piano, guitar, bass vamps, horn vamps. It just gives the drummer more freedom to create space and play musically. As opposed to like Buddy Rich or someone where it would be like, you know, a horn slide and then everyone's out until Buddy or until Gene goes da-da-da-da on his cowbell and everyone comes back in. Yeah, drum solos before Take Five were really technical displays. Sure. But really, the end result was the same. I mean, Joe would bring the house down with the drum solo on Take Five, and it was always the piece that they used to end concerts, the Dave Brubeck Quartet. They would start concerts with St. Louis Blues, and they would end concerts with Take Five. That makes sense.  They'll get so tired of playing it and not want to play it anymore.  I wouldn't say sick of it, but it certainly gave him his identity, of course. Sure. But other drummers, older drummers would kid with him. For example, Gene Krupa would say, okay, kid, you're sort of stuck with Take Five now like I am with Sing Sing Sing. Exactly. And they became very, very close friends at the end of Gene Krupa's life. Oh, well, yeah.  He wanted to get his technique back up to the point where it once was, you know, he was getting older. He wasn't playing maybe quite as much, I presume, but... So he started taking lessons with Joe and Joe's wife, Gene, would drive Joe over to Gene's house in Yonkers, New York. And every Sunday for quite some time, and they would work out on the drum pad and hang out. And they would spend their Sunday afternoons together that way. Such legends, you know, such players. And you said, let's just also maybe take a side note here. You said Joe's wife, her name is Gene, right? Yes. So Gene Marilla. Mary June 2, 1966. Okay. Wow. Joe has very poor vision. So that explains kind of why he would need to be driven. He's sort of famous for his glasses.  It looks more like a chemist, you know. I know. They're thick. But he wasn't... He became basically blind, right? He was legally blind from... Okay. Now, I don't know exactly when the doctors determined that he was legally blind, but from the time he was born throughout his life, he had approximately 38 operations on his eyes. Oh, God. Poor guy. And so he couldn't, you know, partake in the daily types of fun type of routines that most young children would have the opportunity to do. Like go out and play basketball or be a part of the little league or anything like that. So to help give him confidence as a young man, from the time he was very, very young, his mother began teaching him piano. So he was born in Springfield, Massachusetts, by the way, in 1928, July 17th. And his father was a painting contractor. And his mom would teach him, first exposed him to music through the piano. And then at age five, his parents bought him a violin and he began to take lessons on the violin. And he continued to play violin. And three years after working on violin and taking lessons, he was a featured soloist with the Boston Symphony Orchestra performing the Mendelssohn Violin Concerto. God, wow. And at age 12, he made a second appearance with the orchestra. And at that appearance, he met his idol, the great Yasha Heifetz. And after hearing Yasha Heifetz play the violin in person, he felt he couldn't achieve that same quality and intensity of sound. So he decided to change course at age 15 and became interested in the drums. Oh, man, I had no idea. He was a violinist, started as a pianist, then went to violin.  I've never, I never saw him play any violin or when I was at his home, I never, I never saw violin at his house. Interesting. But many of his students, friends and colleagues of mine, we would talk from time to time. And we all agree that his finger control with drumsticks in the left hand is when you hold the violin, of course, you're controlling the pitches and the intonation with your left hand in part. That type of finger control and dexterity in part is a byproduct of his studies on violin from a very young age. He already had that fine-tuned finger motion that he used quite effectively with his left hand because that's really what he was known for. From a technical standpoint, which I don't think he would, he really didn't want to be known as a technician. He was really more so concerned with sounding great with a band. Yeah, sure. But he also wanted people to know that he worked really, really hard at this. He worked very, very hard. He was a hard practicer, very humble man. He practiced every day. He held the sticks in his hands every day. He had to feel that wood in his hands. Louis Belson was the same way Louis Belson told me that. Each day they had to practice. They had to just feel the sticks in their hands moving and working for them. But he knew how to use that technique in a very musical way, in a very, very musical way. He never exploited it. He said it was always great to have more technique than I actually needed for the gig. Especially when it came time to being featured as a drum soloist with the groups I worked with. Because it gave me an abundance of confidence. So that when I had to solo, I felt like I had the confidence and the ideas to express myself because of the technique.  Buddy Rich always gets used as an example for a number of things, but Buddy Rich might be considered a loud confidence. Supposed to Joe, which is like more of like a he knows he has it. He's very kind of like, like you said, he's the drummer in a band as opposed to a technician, but he really does have those technical skills. Let's move through his drumming background then a little more. So you said at 15, he switched to the drum set. Did he perform? Did he play with school? Or did he just kind of start playing with other musicians in Massachusetts or how did the rest of that go? Well, he had some really, some really close childhood friends in Springfield, Massachusetts that went on to have some incredible, had incredible careers of their own, like Sal Salvador, who's a great jazz guitarist who went on to play with the Stan Kenton Orchestra. Bassist Chuck Andrus, who played with Woody Herman swinging her to the early 1960s with Jake Hannah on drums. And also Phil Woods, bebop, alto saxophone legend Phil Woods. All of these gentlemen were very good friends with Joe at a very young age.  So when Joe switched to the drums, he would hang out with his buddies and they would play together. He also had a drum teacher once he transitioned from violin to the drums, just snare drum. And that person was named Joe Sefczyk and he was a show drummer, a show drummer in Springfield, Massachusetts. And he provided Joe with basic fundamentals and encouraged him, gave him some confidence. And Joe began gigging around the Springfield area. Each week he would go to the theater where Joe Sefczyk would be performing and sit right in the front row to check out his setup, his trappings and all the different beats that Joe Sefczyk would be playing. Yeah, which is, it's just interesting too. So he was born in 28, which is basically, you know, after the year of the big, the talkies, the death of the trap drummer. So he was born right as a pretty major transition was going on in the world of drumming, which is just an interesting side note. Yeah, and it's amazing to think that he changed course like that. That he had the confidence to change course like that. Yeah. And most people think of Joe as one of the great technical players along with Buddy Rich. A different tap sound, a different intensity perhaps, but certainly in that same realm of technical facility with Buddy. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, again, he used his technique in a very musical way. Yeah. I'd say to put it very, you know, simply his left hand, he just flies. I mean, it is just speed and control and cleanliness and just him as a person with the glasses and the suit and, you know, kind of a tight haircut. He's just a cool looking image with this flying drum solo with this kind of well-dressed guy. He's got the whole package there. Well, it's interesting because the Brubeck Quartet, they had uniforms, you know. So they always wore the same suit and white shirt and the tie, the long tie. Yeah.  And with the group, Joe went around the world four times with that group. But he always told me in lessons, you know, he was always more concerned with sound rather than speed. And most students would come to him and want to learn how to play fast. Yeah. And, you know, he was more concerned with sound. And I think that leads back to the time where he first heard Yasha Heifetz when he was playing violin with the Boston Symphony Orchestra, where he just realized I can't attain that sound. So I want to make my own course with a different instrument. Gosh, that's such a big jump. It's not like he went from violin to, you know, I'm not going to achieve that.  Yeah. It's like going, I'm going to just, it's apples and oranges. It's such a big jump, but it obviously worked out. Well, one of his, one of his most famous students, the original drummer in the Pat Matheny group, Danny Gottlieb, he got his start on cello. Oh, wow. That's interesting. He first played cello and then switched to drums. I think he started playing drums around 1968 and started studying with Joe in 1969. Wow. So, and again, Danny has incredible technique as well. Very, very fast reflexes and great finger technique too. So that could be, there could be something there with learning, you know, learning a string instrument and having that technical facility with your fingers, this finger strength, dexterity, control. Yeah. I've heard a lot about Danny from, I'm taking lessons right now. People who listen to the show know that I've been taking lessons with Barry James, who was a student of George Lawrence Stone. And he was telling me a lot about how Danny's just the, you know, a great, you know, drummer and very, very great student. Let's, on that note, good transition. Let's talk about maybe, I'm assuming it kind of, because it predates the Brubeck days, I think. Let's talk about how we got into lessons with the great George Lawrence Stone, the author of Stick Control and Accents and Rebounds. So let's, how did that happen? Well, he studied with Joe Safjik for a period of time. Yeah, sure. My understanding that Joe Safjik was a real disciplinarian, a real taskmaster from interviews that I've read. But he took Joe so far. And he's also sounded like a humble man in the interviews that I read about Joe Safjik. And he recommended that Joe study with George Lawrence Stone, go study with Stone. And so Joe would travel by bus from Springfield, Massachusetts to Boston to take lessons with Stone. And when Joe started to take lessons, he really wanted to be a legitimate percussionist. You know, he wanted to be a member of a symphony orchestra on percussion. That was his goal. So he started taking orchestral snare drum lessons with Stone and became very interested and naturally curious. And then he wanted to move on to timpani and xylophone. And Stone refused to teach him those instruments because of his impaired vision. Really? Yeah. So why? Just because the... Well, he would have a very difficult time reading xylophone music and timpani music because the music stand is placed so far in front of both of those instruments. Plus as an orchestral percussionist, you know, as a percussionist in an orchestra, in the back row, and you also need to follow the conductor. And so that distance also played into it. So he really discouraged Joe from going down that path and actually encouraged trap set. And Joe had some experience on drum set just jamming with his friends, you know, like we talked about a moment ago. Sure. But he never wanted to pursue that. Seriously, he really did. He wanted to be a legitimate classical percussionist. But it was Stone that encouraged him to follow the same path as Stone's former student, Gene Krupa, and pursued jazz drums. Wow. Now, you just said something that I'm like, wow, I never thought about that. So the fact that his impaired vision and reading music, you kind of take that for granted. And I actually, so working as an audio engineer, I've recorded and worked with a guy who's a extremely nice guy, great singer, but he is sounds like Joe. He's very, very, very, I don't think he's not considered blind. I mean, he pretty much is. He can't drive. He can see about two inches away from his face. Like he'll hold his phone up very close to kind of read stuff. But I was recording him because he's working on, he likes to sing. And he had to print like size 72 font, put it about, and then have, I had the music stand about literally three inches from his face. And that's how we would do it. And just makes me think of with Joe, like how would you work on, let's say stick control or something like that? I guess he would have to just bring the book pretty close to his face. And I know it progressively got worse, his vision. And he was able to read, even when he made the transition into New York City. I mean, he was taking gigs that required him to read. He did jingle work. He did some studio work. He recorded several records where reading was a prerequisite. So he was able to read. But when you're playing drum set and you're reading, you can keep that music stand closer to your left side, closer to the hi-hat or closer to the floor, Tom. So you're not, you're not reading at such a far distance.  But I mean, most drummers will hold, you know, have the music either to the left or to the right. He really couldn't see all that well to, you know, and I think Stone knew that as Joe continued on his journey through life that his eyesight would continue to get worse. So he just, he just thought, well, why not, why not see if we can use this opportunity to change his course once again. So, you know, he changes his course from violin to drums and he figures, well, I love classical music, obviously, because he's playing violin. I'll go to this great classical percussionist, George Lard Stone, and I'll become a classical percussionist. And he was really hurt that Stone said that. He told me that. He was really hurt by that because he wanted to, he really had his eye set on that being a legitimate percussionist. But, you know, with his studies with Stone, you know, Stone really helped him with developing his reflex, developing his sound, natural body motion, the level system, allowing the sticks to work for you, allowing the stick to do the work, allowing, you know, your body to accept the natural rebound. And all of that was through, you know, the pillar of percussion, really, where we all begin our studies in percussion, which is stick control. And Joe was, again, a naturally curious, hardworking, disciplined person. So he would take those exercises in stick control. And if you go through the whole book, you'll notice that you won't find a single accent in that book. It's sticking patterns for control and for endurance if you repeat each line 20 times. It's also a book that will help you develop your single stroke roll, your double stroke roll, and your closed roll. And then there's a section on flams. So, but really the foundation of the book is the first three pages, pages five, six, and seven. And so what Joe would do is he would practice, diligently practice the exercises that Stone gave him. But then when he took them home, he practiced them, but he also experimented with them and added accents, different accent patterns with the stickings that were written, just to vary it up a little bit. And he would bring those patterns back to Stone to show him what he did with the lesson material. And Stone was always very knocked out and encouraged. Encouraged Joe to continue to do these types of patterns and continue to experiment with these types of patterns. And Stone would write them down. And these patterns eventually became Stone's second book, which he dedicated to Joe. Oh, wow. I didn't know that. Accents and rebounds. Yeah. So Joe would refer to stick control as stick control, accents and rebounds, and then Joe's first technical method book, master studies. He would refer to those three books as the trilogy. Whereas you go through stick control and then accents and rebounds and master studies was an extension of both stick control and accents and rebounds. Wow. Interesting. I've heard so many good things about George Lawrence Stone, about him being kind of open to evolving and changing and just being a very nice guy who would be happy that people are taking his things and growing. And just in the big picture was Joe, I mean, in your experience with taking lessons, which we'll get there. But was he a really serious guy? Was he a funny guy? Was he a nice guy? What was he like as a person? The best way I could describe him, he was an individual. He had a very individual approach. He would say, this isn't for everybody. I think he, in his own way, you had to prove to him that you really wanted it. And I'll give you an example. The first lesson that I took with Joe was from 5 to 7 p.m. It was a two-hour lesson because I lived approximately three hours from the drum studio. So my father drove me to Glen Webber's drum shop in West Orange, New Jersey, and got there early. So I got there around 4.30, and the lesson was supposed to start at 5. Joe wasn't there yet, 5.30. Joe wasn't there yet, 6 o'clock. So my father was like, where is he? Did you book this lesson or not? And I'm like, yeah. So I asked Glen Webber, who runs the shop, owns the shop, where's Joe? And he said, this is completely normal. He said, I'll give him a call just to make sure that he's feeling okay and that he's still coming in. And his wife answered and said, oh, yeah, yeah. I'm bringing him over now. So the 5 to 7 lesson started at 7 and went to 9.  Yeah, so like from then on I drove myself. But my father wanted to meet him because he was a fan of the Dave Brubeck Quartet. But he's a legend. He can get away with it. Normally, though, if it was just some teacher at a music store, he'd be like, dude, two hours late. And so I quickly learned, you know, I'll go to pick you up at your house and we can start the lesson or if he felt like he wanted to have lunch before the lesson, we could do that. Or if I was his only lesson, I would pick him up. We would take the lesson and then have dinner afterwards. Man, that's cool. So it was like a two-hour lesson. But when you factored in the time hanging out, either having lunch or dinner, it was a six to eight hour day together. That's really cool, though. So there was this mentoring that takes place one-on-one. And it's something that is very, very rare in today's teaching environment where you have online, obviously, with COVID. Everything is online. Nothing's in person. Even so before this pandemic hit, you know, if you had a lesson, it started at a certain time. It ended at a certain time. Yeah. And there wasn't this apprenticeship. No. Which I really felt like I had under him, under Joe, under his tutelage where I could call him anytime and ask him questions about the lesson material. He always took my call. He always answered my questions. He would actually get upset if I wouldn't call and check in. If his students wouldn't call and check in, he would give you a hard time when you finally did. Yeah. He wanted to hear from his students. He never had children of his own. So he wanted, he really looked at his students as his children. And he had some incredible students in all facets of percussion. You know, I'm thinking of, you know, we mentioned Danny Gottlieb, John Riley, who teaches at the Manhattan School of Music and is the drummer with the Vanguard Orchestra. Yeah, yeah. You know, Tim Genus of the Boston Symphony Orchestra, Tim Penis, he studied with them. Lee Howard Stevens credits Joe when Lee Howard Stevens was a student at Eastman School of Music, he would come to Joe and take snare drum and drum set lessons with Joe and credits those lessons in part to his method of movement, method where he holds the four mallet technique that he uses on the rim. You know, he would always say, you know, you could use this technique that I'm going to show you in any type of musical situation. Yeah. It knows no style. It has no bounds. You can take this and use it in any way you want. Sure. Now, and I always think it's interesting just to kind of paint the picture of what it was like then. Was Joe just like a pretty affordable price for a lesson to go to the shop and learn with him? Yeah. I mean, I thought so. When I started studying with Joe, it was $35 an hour. That's so awesome. And I mean, I don't know what that is with inflation today, but it's still... That's not nice. I think it's pretty reasonable for the amount of attention that I received and the amount of hours we would hang out. So, yeah, the lessons were very structured. We spent an hour on the drum pad and an hour on the drums. And he allowed you to record the lessons. So, I have over 20 hours of video of those lessons. And then when we hung out afterwards, then it was, you know, stories from the road and just things to look out for in the music business as, you know, I would go down my journey if I come in for a lesson and I had some questions about musicians or leaders dealing with leaders or working with bass players or just, you know, musical situations that I was finding myself in or having trouble or difficulty with. That's the mentorship, basically. I mean, that's the... Yeah.  Joe, it's like these six-hour hangs. Well, you know, she... Jean, and she's still with us, you know, I spoke with her yesterday. I gave her a call just to check in, see how she was doing, and they were 10 years apart. You know, Jean was 10 years younger and just the sweetest, sweetest lady, she booked all the lessons and just such a deep, you know, as you can imagine, just a deep love for him and admiration as we all have for him. He was the first person I was ever around that really was a true artist. You know, he did things on his terms. He never really... He didn't change the way he did things to please anybody. He would always say, that's the secret to failure is to try to please everyone. Yeah. You know, that's the secret to failure. The secret to success is to please yourself and do what's right. Follow the straight line. Yeah. Follow the straight line. You know what's right. Follow your gut. Yeah. Boy, that's a true... That's some good advice right there.  I mentioned he was an individual. I mean, he had his influences. He loved Jean. He loved Jean Krupa's playing. He felt every note he played had purpose. He loved Buddy Rich. He thought Buddy's power with the Tommy Dorsey band was just unbelievable. Probably his first two influences. His first two major influences on the drums when he was studying with Stone. Sephchik was the one who told him about Jean Krupa. He never heard of Jean Krupa until he started studying with Joe Sepchik. He also talked about Sid Catlett and Shadow Wilson. Yeah. He liked the way they moved their fluidity and their legato approach. He talked about Kenny Clark. He loved Kenny Clark's ride symbol beat. He liked the spread of the beat, the sound of the ride symbol. Kenny Clark had a really elegant ride symbol beat. So if you listen to Joe on those great Dave Brubeck recordings and even before that, the recordings with Mary McPartlin. And there's several recordings. If we have time, I'd like to mention... Yeah. ...that when he was with Mary McPartlin from 1953 to 1956, he was also recording with other artists. And those recordings are fairly hard to find and somewhat rare. But I think they're interesting to hear because this was a three- or four-year period where everything was new to Joe. I mean, when he moved to New York, he was living at the YMCA. Oh, wow. And, you know, he was struggling. He gave himself six months. He told his father, I'm going to give myself six months. If I can't do this, I'm going to move back to Springfield. His father was a real taskmaster. His mom was really soft, but his mom passed when he was 17. Hmm, boy. So I think there was always that I need to please my father and him. You know, that I got to prove to my dad that I've got to get this. I've got to do this, you know, which I relate to in some form or fashion. My father was a disciplinarian and a real detail-oriented man. I mean, he worked the top chewing gum. You know, he was a tool-and-die guy that made the parts to keep the machinery working, wrapping the bazooka bubblegum and cutting the baseball cards and the ring pops. And he was a musician, too. On the side, he played six nights a week in the 60s on Tenor Saxophone, and that's where I got my start, playing with his groups. Man, that's so cool. He was a disciplinarian, my dad. So I mean, I always wanted to please my dad. You know, I wanted to make sure that he knew I could do this. I can play for a living. You know? Yeah, of course. You put your mind to it. You could do whatever. You put your mind to it if you work hard enough. And so those three or four years were really a real fruitful period that led to the gig with the day of Brubeck Quartet. So listening to Joe develop on those recordings and Blossom, I think, is really an interesting period of time. That is an overlooked period of time in jazz history because everyone goes to those Brubeck recordings and why not? They're just, they're brilliant. Yeah. You know? They're brilliant recordings. Joe's favor of all of the recordings he did with Dave was the Carnegie Hall concert. It's a two CD set on Columbia live recording from Carnegie Hall. And Joe had 102 fever. They just got back, I think, from Europe and didn't feel much like playing. Almost didn't do the concert. He was just so sick. But when he took the stage, everything was fine. He broke a sweat and everything was fine. Yeah. Gosh, man. I think, so I just was looking it up a little bit because I was like, how old would, so doing the math during the 40s, during World War II, Joe would have been too young to be, because I was thinking maybe he got, his vision would have kept him out, but he was too young to go obviously into the war, which a lot of people at that point did. I mean, Elvis, everyone was involved with it. But it's interesting. It looks like Dave Brubeck was actually in the army during World War II, which is just kind of, you know, reading a little bit really quickly. It seems like he didn't, he wasn't faced with too much, you know, on the front line. But Joe would have been, if I do the math kind of, Joe would have been under 18 for most of the war. So that he wouldn't have been involved in that. With the exception of, or with the added wrinkle, I should say, of that there still was a draft going on. Yeah. And so a lot of musicians, because of a draft during a war period of time, would enlist or audition for a band, and then if they made a band, then would enlist in the military. You know, I'm thinking of Steve Gad, for example, during the Vietnam War, you know, after he graduated from Eastman School of Music. Yes. He came down to the D.C. area and auditioned for the Marine Band and then auditioned for the Army Field Band and won that job at the Army Field Band and then enlisted into the army and stayed stateside performing concerts around the U.S. with the Army Field Band and did three years, three year enlistment, fulfilled his obligation to the military. And so he didn't concern himself with the draft because he enlisted. And oddly enough, he mentioned Joe, he actually enlisted into the Massachusetts State Guard because he wanted to play, he wanted to play music. And when he enlisted, he was in and they figured out that he had vision problems. So he had to be discharged, but he did enlist, actually, into the state guard. This was before it was a national guard. Yeah. Man, that's interesting. Totally unrelated from drums, but there's just always, you find out those interesting things. Like I was working on, still am, working on an episode about the drummers who would be on the Johnny Carson show and Buddy Rich and Johnny playing a drummer. I found out that Ed McMahon was in the Air Force and flew, I think it says, 85 combat missions and was just like a real deal dude in the Air Force. So you just hear about these people who have these lives. It's just so interesting to think of like Dave Brubeck being in Europe during the war and then he comes back and that's when, in me being a 30 year old guy, I think of, take five, you forget about these guys in this time having this totally different life. It's incredible. Yeah, very incredibly. It really is. Yeah. Okay, so then 56 to 67, that's the Brubeck era when that really is what puts Joe in the public eye. Is that safe to say? Well, before he was with Dave Brubeck for three years, he was a member of the Marion McPartland trio. So that was one of the very first long running gigs he had when he first moved to New York. His childhood friends, Sal Salvador and Phil Woods were already in New York and they encouraged and pushed him to come. He was traveling with Hank Garland, who was a guitarist, Hank Garland of the Grand Ole Dock. So he was a country guitarist. He was in Nashville from, I think he got to Nashville in the mid-40s and had a recording contract with Decca Records in the late 1940s. And Hank Garland was friends with Ralph Caputo, who played a accordion and he's from the Springfield area and he was family friends with Joe Morello's family. So Joe knew Ralph and I think that's how that connection with Hank Garland came about. Got it. Wow. So Joe played with Hank Garland and eventually with Glenn Gray and did some traveling with Glenn Gray before moving to New York City in 1952 and when he first came to New York drummers Moussey Alexander and Don LeMond. Alexander was working with Mary with Partland at the time and before that Don LeMond was working with Mary with Partland and he also played with Woody Herman's second herd, great big band drummer, amazing drummer. Joe loved Don LeMond's playing. He's the drummer on Beyond the Sea. Those great drum breaks on that. Yeah. Got Moussey Alexander talking about a, I'm not familiar with them, that's a great jazz name. Yeah, so he met him and they both were very encouraging to Joe and they both introduced Joe to Marion and Joe started jobbing around a little bit New York with guitarist Johnny Smith and he subbed for Stan Levy for a few weeks with the Stan Kenton band. He loved big band. Joe loved big band. Really at his core he was a straight ahead swing drummer. He loved straight ahead swing even though he's known for playing complicated odd time signatures and making them feel comfortable. Really at his core he loved swing down the middle straight ahead and kicking a big band with all its brass. So he did that for a few weeks and then that experience led to this engagement with Mary with Partland who had a steady at the Hickory House. So six nights a week at the Hickory House. Just this very, very famous jazz club in New York at the time and when he was with Marion he spent three years with her and they were very popular trio with Bill Crow on the bass and a lot of musicians were starting to come into town or come into the club to hear him play with Marion. It was a very, very hot group. He started to win some polls like the downbeat young jazz musician on the rise poll and he had some offers from Benny Goodman. He had an offer from Tommy Dorsey which he turned down to stay with Marion with Partland because he was doing so well. He was playing six nights a week with her but then he was recording during the day with many artists and those are some of the records that maybe if we have time we can talk about for your listeners to check out. But Paul Desmond and Dave Brubeck also came in to hear Joe play with Marion and they really liked his brushwork and at the time Dave was on the cover of Time Magazine around that same period of time and Dave wanted to make a change in his group. He wanted to explore different time signatures and continue to fuse classical elements with jazz which he's known for, Dave Brubeck. Joe was reluctant at first. He wasn't that keen on the Dave Brubeck quartet really because the drummer at the time, his name was Joe Dodge and he said you don't feature your drummer. He's in the background. He plays brushes the entire time. The group is featuring Paul Desmond on alto saxophone. Even the early recording said that Dave Brubeck quartet featuring Paul Desmond. So he said if I came with your group I would like to be featured. Dave guaranteed that he would be. That's nice. So Joe gave it a shot. He joined the group in October of 1956. Dave wanted him to sign a contract but he wasn't really interested in signing anything because he didn't want to be locked in. He told Dave, he said, I may not like traveling as much as you do. You may not like my playing. So why don't we just try it and see how things work out? He controls everything. That's pretty cool. He's in demand. Yeah, and he had a way though. He just had a natural sense about him where he can read a situation like a certain sixth sense about him where he could get things done the way he envisioned them without being heavy handed. Yeah, or pushy. Yeah, never. Never. Never saw him raise his temper. Ever. Yeah, that's a good skill. And he would do this though. No matter what, whether it was in a lesson or with the musicians in his own group or with Bruvak or when he was with Mary McParlin, stories he told, he just had a way of being soft-spoken and he would interpret the environment that he was in at the moment and he had that feeling. He could just feel if it was going to be a dark environment or something that was somewhat more enjoyable perhaps. Even when we would go out and eat a restaurant, he knew how to speak to a waiter, a waitress, the bartender. He knew how to get the best out of people. He knew how to inspire a person to get the best out of them. They always say that you can tell a lot about people by how you communicate and act with people such as a server at a restaurant or customer service people on the phone, more modern, talking to people on the phone like that. It's true. When you see people who are mean to a server, it's just like, ugh, man, it makes you cringe. But when people treat them well, they're normal people like everyone else, just doing a job. Yeah, wow. Moving the ball forward here a little bit. Obviously, he had a great career.  I know we talked about it earlier, but why don't you tell us a little bit of what you know about his setup for take five? That album is actually great. Out of time is really great. Lots of interesting stuff, but take five is quote unquote the single. Did he just use a ride symbol for that? I know he probably had a high hat, obviously, but wasn't it a very minimal setup? There's a cool video out there about that ride, but what was his deal with that? Well, you know, that ride symbol, that ride symbol is on display at the Memphis drum shop. That's it. That's right. In that symbol, Joe gave that symbol to the Caputo family. So I mentioned Ralph Caputo earlier in the conversation and how he played accordion and Joe and his family knew Ralph from the time he was very, very young and they probably played together and how he knew Hank Garland and that probably was how Joe learned of Hank Garland and became associated with him. And then when Ralph passed, his son Greg had the symbol and he, Greg's a drummer. Greg had the symbol. I believe Greg's a drummer. Greg had the symbol. And so it was in the family. He inherited it. And there's some pictures from that session, what I believe to be from that session at Columbia Records. And all the pictures that I could see, there was just one symbol. It was a 20-inch A-Zilgen medium ride and a pair of hi-hats. He also used a 9 by 13 small tom, a 16 by 16 inch floor tom, a 14 by 22 inch bass drum and a 5 inch by 14 inch snare drum. All Ludwig. All Ludwig, right? For sensitive, yeah. Yeah, big Ludwig. And a wooden beater on the Speed King bass drum pedal with a mullskin patch on the batter's side to get that thwack that he got. He was known for that thwack bass drum sound that he would get.  At that time, most jazz drummers were using a 20 inch bass drum or even an 18 inch bass drum in the late 1950s. An 8 by 12, a 14 by 14 small tom, usually two cymbals. I mean, I've seen set up live with him where he was using two cymbals or even three, two crashes and a ride. He helped popularize the odd sizes in cymbal making. He was one of the first to suggest to the Zildjian company to make odd sizes, a 21 inch ride, a 19 inch crash ride, a 17 inch crash and 13 inch hi-hats. Before that, everything was even sized. Yeah. 18, 16. And so, because that was sort of his identity as a brand on time signatures. So he liked the odd size cymbals. He played, he played a 21 later. That makes sense. Wow. But on that particular session, he was using a 20. But he got all different sounds, different qualities of sounds from the cymbal itself. Played near the edge. He played near the cup. He played it with sticks. He played it with brushes. Yeah.  And touch. But really more than not just let a tech set up your drums and kind of just come in and sit down and play. But he really just embodies just the drums in general. Just the beauty and the mastery of the drum set from top to bottom. Yeah. He truly enjoyed playing. I mean, he loved playing. He never practiced on a set of drums, he told me. Oh, really? Because he always lived in an apartment. So he never sat down behind the drums and actually worked out any of those odd time signature grooves or beats or poly rhythms. He's known for the table of time where he can play triplets with his left hand and seven with his right foot and five with his right hand. Superimpose, different groupings of notes simultaneously. He's known for that. I've seen him do that in clinics many times. But he never practiced on the drums. He always practiced on the pad. He never worked. Which is astounding, really, when you think about it because most drummers today, that's what they do. I mean, they don't even start on a snare drum. Most students, they get a drum set and they start on the drum set. And that was really the core thread of Lessons with Joe. He would say, why don't we start with trying to create one even inconsistent sound. Let's get an even inconsistent sound on one surface before we confuse things and try to create an even inconsistent sound on multiple surfaces. Because really, the drum set, as Max Roach once said, is a multiple percussion instrument. Of course. If you're unable to get an even inconsistent sound on one surface, how are you going to get an even inconsistent sound on five, six surfaces when you include the cymbals? It's impossible. In the couple lessons I've had with Barry James, who maybe at the end I can talk about it more, he co-wrote a book with Joe that was about their Lessons with Stone. But he showed me how he's closed your eyes and we all know this kind of thing where he should be doing doubles, left, right, and you should not have any idea which hand he's using. You shouldn't hear a ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba. You shouldn't hear a difference. Right. And it seems exactly like what you're saying, where it just comes back to a clean, consistent sound. Go from there, you know? Which would sound like you're playing everything with one hand. Exactly. So when you play the first three pages of the stone book, even though there's 72 single beat combinations starting on page five, it should sound, if you close your eyes, it should sound like you're playing them all with your right or left hand. There shouldn't be any deviation in sound. Yeah. And as you say that, I meant to mention this before, the missing page eight, the missing fourth page, I guess, of the single beat exercises is in that book that Barry and Joe wrote. Wow. It's just more of that. More stickings. More stickings. You thought you were done? Wow. You're just getting started. Wow. All right. So he's out of... So 67, let's just push forward here. So 67, he's out of the Brubeck group. Was that a rough breakup or was that sort of a... Who initiated that end? I would imagine it was probably Dave, but I think it was a collective decision, really. I mean, in conversations with Joe, he just said we all grew tired of traveling so much. Oh, yes, sure. You know, 12 years, 12 and a half years or whatever it was, being gone nine months a year. And then the other three months out of the year, Joe was doing clinics for the Ludwig Drum Company. Oh. But for most of the time, he was gone. He wasn't even... He was never really home for those years. He was always traveling, whether it was with Dave or representing Ludwig doing drum clinics and master classes. So... Because the Brubeck Quartet was one of the first groups to perform on college campuses. They have a record called Jazz Goes to College, which was done at Oberlin in Ohio. That's cool. And so Dave's wife was instrumental in booking the band at universities and colleges across the U.S. And so they would come in, they would play, but oftentimes Joe would do classes also during the afternoon. And he helped standardize the master class clinic format that we enjoy today. Yeah. And so he really, in 1967, once the group broke up, he was 39 years old, still very young. Very good. Yeah. But he had enough. He said, I've done it. He said, I've been around the world four times. He said, we were the first group to play behind the Iron Curtain Russia. Okay. You know, they played in Iraq, Afghanistan, in the 50s on a state department tour. A great record for your listeners to check out jazz impressions of Eurasia. Wonderful, wonderful recording. In addition to time out, of course, Gone with the Wind, another incredible recording. You can hear Joe's brushwork on that amazing recording. And the Carnegie Hall, the live Carnegie Hall recording that period is very, very special, that period of that group. Yeah, yeah. I thought he's playing change. That's why it's so interesting to hear those recordings while he was with Marion and when he was freelancing and recording with other artists before he joined Dave. And he joined Dave. And those first five, six years, the first six years, say, of the Bruvette Quartet, his approach was lighter and more spatial, perhaps. His solos were. But as time went on, when they finished their run in 66-67, you could see some of that footage. There's a great video. Joe Morello, the great drum solo, I believe it's called, where they're playing before like 3,000 people in this huge outdoor arena. And I think on that tour, Herb Albert and the Tijuana Brass open for them. Oh, cool. It's a great show. Yeah. So, I mean, they were playing big, big venues at the end.  The probably arguably the most celebrated ensemble in jazz history is certainly during that period of time. I would agree. Yeah. I mean, obviously, Miles Davis has his groups of his various musicians. And I'm not saying, I'm not taking away from any of the other great jazz artists that we all listen to and gain inspiration from. But in terms of popularity, they were tapped into something. Yeah. And I think it had a lot to do with being on college campuses and playing for the youth of America. That's the next generation. Styles in the world changed. 67, you know, then you get into, you know, the summer of love and rock and roll in the 70s. Beatles were already roaring. But like, and actually probably coming to close to an end, but music was changing. And that perhaps could have led to that decision. Yeah, sure. To disband where maybe today they might have just taken a little hiatus and regroup. They did do a reunion tour in the mid-70s for the 25th anniversary of the Dave Bruvette Quartet. Oh, cool. And then there was a recording of that on A&M Records for your listeners that they can go and check out where you can hear that quartet shortly before Paul Desmond passed, which is really a special recording, because I think they were only out for maybe a few weeks. They weren't out for like a long extended period of time, but they were traveling in a bus and they were playing, you know, around the U.S. on a tour. And the drum tech that helped Joe with the drums and was a student of Joe's, his name's Steve Forester. And he's also a great drummer and has a book out that has a lot of different technical exercises based on sticking, different sticking patterns and things he worked on with Joe that I think would really be of interest to your listeners as well to check out. But yeah, I mean, he, that whole group, it was a very, very special group and, you know, I hope that this time together that we're spending and that people are listening and checking it out that they can go back and revisit some of those recordings and gain inspiration from them. Yeah, beyond, and I'm kind of guilty of this, where I need to do more listening. It's fun homework where you, beyond take five, you know, I think that's, it's a great thing to have that one song that everyone knows that he is just infamous for, but beyond that and look into his catalog, obviously with Brubeck, but with further back. But I feel like there's so much we could just talk about. So one side note, I just think it's an interesting thing that I've heard from a couple people is about, and not even drum related, but Joe with his CNI dog named Matthew, I believe. It's just kind of a fun little character point about him having a dog like that. Yeah, I met Matthew once. He came to the lesson, one of the first lessons that I took. And he would always be really close with Joe. When Gene would drop him off, Matthew was sitting right next to Joe right in the front seat between the two of them. He would travel with him on airplanes. He would sleep in the hotel rooms with them. He was really broken up when he passed. Oh yeah. Well, they had to put him down. He had some issues with his hip and he was in such, such pain, and he never got another dog after that. Sometimes you'll see a pendant that Joe, in some pictures you'll see Joe wearing a pendant around his neck with a little picture of a silver pendant with Matthew's face. God, the dogs are the greatest thing in the world, but it's the saddest thing in the world. They don't live forever. We all know this, but it's just especially that connection between a seeing eye dog and someone is just, that's like heartbreaking to think about that. You might also find of interest to, your listeners might, if we have a minute. Yeah. We talked about how he standardized, popularized the drum set clinic in master class format. He was also, he also recommended the Bill Ludwig, Bill Ludwig II, to add his name on the front resonant head of the bass drum. Because before that, drums didn't have the company logo on the front. So Joe was the first to say, you know, when we do these drum clinics, and I'm going out with Dave, why don't you put Ludwig right there, under the, right in the front, right on the front bass drum head, right under the hoop. He recommended that. He was also the first drummer to use sparkle finished drums. Oh cool. When he was in Chicago, with Mary and McPartland, they opened in Chicago in 1953, with that trio. And Bill Ludwig came out on the second night that they were there, at the blue note to hear Joe play. And Joe had this old WFL, white marine pearl drum set with a really squeaky speed king pedal. And he was having difficulty. The other thing was like falling apart. He was putting it on the hoop of the bass drum.  Can I help you? He goes, hi, my name is Bill Ludwig. And wow, Joe was surprised that he was there and was happy to meet him. And he offered to take him to the WFL factory in 1953 to take him over and give him a tour of the factory. And when he did the next day, he noticed some sparkle finished drums that were on shelves in the factory that were going to be used for marching drums because any sparkle finished drums in the 50s were given to marching bands to use. That was the specific finish for that. And Joe, it just caught his eye, the sparkles just caught his eye. And he asked if he can get a drum set made with the silver sparkle finish. And that silver sparkle finish had some crushed glass in it. Those early sparkle finishes were actually made with crushed glass. Gosh. So cool. So he was, you know, and today that's such a standard finish that a lot of jazz drummers use. Yeah. But yeah, he did a lot for the industry and he did a lot for jazz drummers. He did a lot for jazz drum education, music education. He did a lot for humanity. Really? He did. I don't know anyone that studied with him that still doesn't feel this closeness and how, whether it was one lesson or years of lessons, how that time together completely changed the trajectory and relationship that you had with the instrument. And he did it through example. Because you always say, if I can do it, you can do it. Sure. That's smart. And it's very, very true. I mean, what he overcame in his life from the over 30 operations on his eyes to moving to New York. Most people are scared, you know, obviously scared to move to New York and try to make a living at music.  God. You know? Yeah. Courageous. For me and I know other students that studied with him and our incredible drummers that we mentioned throughout the podcast, we feel like there's this bond that we have and we love to talk about Joe and it makes us feel better. And we feel like we're torch bearers. In 2010, the summer before he died, I called him and I said, Joe, I'm going to be in town and I would love to get together and I have my son with me and my son is, he's 24 now, but he was touring with the Glenn Miller Orchestra until COVID hit and great drummer.  Well, I didn't know by that time that Joe had retired from teaching altogether. And so he said, yeah, I would love to see you again. I'd love to meet your son. He came in to Glenn Weber's and Glenn Weber taught his Joe studio at Glenn Weber's was up a flight of steps. And so Joe walked up that flight of steps, even though he wasn't feeling well, he was really experiencing bad back pain, went in, gave my son an hour lesson, didn't take a cent. That was the last lesson Joe taught, which I'm so grateful that he did that and he shared that experience with him. And at his first lesson, he said to my son, he said, do you have any questions? And my son was very nervous, of course. And he couldn't really think of any questions at the time. And he said, well, I'll impart some wisdom. This is a very, very long career that you're about to embark on. And if you want to have a life in music, the best thing that I can say to you is that you really got to love it. You really have to be dedicated and you really, really have to love it. If you're doing it for any other reason, then you might want to consider another profession. At my first lesson, he said, Steve, I'm 40 years older than you. The music that you're into, I'm probably not. And the music I'm into, you're probably not into. So what I'm about to show you, trust me, what I'm about to show you will help you play in any style of music that you see yourself playing. So true. Yeah. So again, it was... He was like a second father to me. What's your son's name? Tony. Tony. Does Tony still play the drums? Oh, yeah. Like I said, he was on the road with the Glenn Miller Band. Oh, yeah. He was starting with Danny Gottlieb at the University of North Florida, finishing up his music education degree there. He was on the road with the Miller Band until this hit. Now, like all of us, we're sort of in a holding pattern until we know what the next steps are in our career here, in terms of moving forward musically as musicians here. Sure. How long did you take lessons? So you took lessons from 1987. When did you... I took a two-hour lesson every two weeks for four years. And then when I joined the military, I was at University of North Texas working on my master's degree. I was a teaching assistant in the percussion department there. And then I joined the Army Field Band, which we talked about earlier. And Joe was the one who told me about that job. He saw the listing in the international musician paper. And he suggested, why don't you take the audition? He said, you don't have to take the gig. Take the audition. He said, if you win the gig, then you have the choice. But to prepare for that gig, you're going to learn a lot about yourself and a lot about that music that that band is performing. So I took the audition and I won that job. And so I was stationed in Washington, DC. And I would go up once a month or so, maybe once every six weeks for checkups for the next 10 years. And just to see him and to make sure that everything that I was working on was anatomically correct because he was all about the sound that you were producing, making sure that you weren't doing anything nonsensical, that you were accepting the rebound. You're the tone of the stick when the drumstick struck the drum pad. He wanted your reflex action to be very, very quick. Sure. And so, and I didn't want to develop any bad habits. So it was always good for me to go up and have a check in and see him. And, you know, he was, he was always a major resource for me in terms of direction and inspiration. And he always had the countless, countless exercises. It was always changing and always developing. And it was generational. If you talk to students that studied with him in the 50s, it was a little different than the students in the 60s. A little different than the students that studied with him in the 70s. There was a lot of the same exercises, but there were different exercises. He was constantly adding and changing his repertoire of exercise. Yeah, that's what I've heard about stone. So he passed away in 2011. So he lived to be 83 years old, which is just a very long and obviously... Yeah, just shy. His birthday was July, so he was 82. 82, wow. Was it just, I assume it was natural causes. I mean, he was just, he, you know, that's a pretty long life. Yeah, yeah. So, wow, unbelievable. I want to save some time here at the end to talk about you and tell people to find you and all that stuff. Are we missing anything about Joe? I feel like we have a pretty good... Is it safe to assume from 67 up until, you know, maybe the end of when you said he retired from teaching that he just maintained performing and was still doing clinics and teaching and just stayed, you know, as far as I understand, he was still very heavily in the limelight of the drum world for a long time, right? Starting in late 67, I think the last gig the band did, the debut record that did was December 26, 1967. They did a concert in Pittsburgh, which was recorded, and that is, that recording is on Columbia, and that's called their last time-out for anyone that wants to, you know, hear that and get a sense of the timeline and the breadth of information and music that that group performed. But, yeah, starting in 68, he essentially became full-time teaching and he would teach in a drum shop, you know, very blue-collar existence. You know, he would go in, teach at the drum shop. He would have student after student after student, and then he would go home, you know. And I'm sure from talking with other students that he had throughout the 70s, it was a very similar experience with, you know, running late, some students didn't like it, they didn't come back. You know, some students that were traveling from very long distances, some from overseas, you know, they would miss connections. But, you know, it's not like today where you could do a FaceTime lesson or Skype lesson or a Zoom call. Everything had to be done in person, and he knew what he had was different and special and he wanted you to prove to him that you really wanted it. Yeah, sure. You know, so it was sort of on his terms but he was always very, very giving of his time. You know, he believed strongly in self-improvement and developing your own individual style of playing. He would always say, why do you want to play like this drummer or why do you want to play or sound like that drummer? That's already been done. Yeah. We all have our own special God-given talents that we should explore and develop. It would be very boring if everyone played the same. Yeah. That was the point he was trying to make. Sure, definitely. Smart guy. Yeah, amazing, amazing person. Some of the recordings that he was making while with marrying with Partland, there's two recordings that he did that I have anyway, there's probably more. But the two I have with Marion, marrying with Partland at Storyville and at the Hickory House and timeless marrying with Partland. So if you wanted to listen to some recordings of Joe before Brubeck. Yeah. During Brubeck, his first solo recording that he did on RCA, which is very hard to find, with Sextet and Big Band, it's about time. Features a very young Gary Burton on vibraphone and Phil Woods on alto. That's an excellent recording. Geez, we could talk for hours about Joe. Yeah. I think we have a very good understanding of him as a person, him as a musician coming up and getting, you know, really it's a success story. Yeah. The hardships with his vision and how he had to deal with that and the 30 surgeries.  And you became yourself quite the successful performer and drummer, educator, composer. And so you have a recent album out, which I think would be great to kind of tell people where they can hear you. So Battle Lines is your latest album, which is just phenomenal. Thank you. And so I actually, and let's give him a shout out. So Neil Goldenthal was the person who's a student of yours, correct? A temple. A temple who reached out and said, hey, I think you should talk to Steve about Joe Morello, and I think it would just be a great show. And I mean, it's just funny because that was probably a year ago. And it's probably me just doing kind of this whole thing alone here. It takes forever to actually get things moving. But here we are. So thank you. Thankfully, we were able to get together and do this. And I'm honored because to be a part of it and to speak on behalf of my experience with Joe, if you had other drummers on that studied with him, you would have similar, probably similar conversation, but also different experiences as well. And they're all valid. And that was the thing about Joe. He believed that to his core that all music and all people, everything in life, if it's done with integrity, is valid. And that you have to respect that. And so I appreciate you reaching out to me and working through Neal and giving me this platform to speak about my experiences with Joe. There are so many great drummers that you could have had on. And if you have time to do that, I mean, you may want to investigate their experiences too because with Joe, because it's so... They don't teach drums that way anymore. No. You know, they just don't. No, it's a different... And I've learned that with my lessons with Barry James is it's a different level of apprenticeship-ness, if that makes sense. It's a different level of, not just you're clocking in for your half hour and then you're out. So it's cool to hear these stories and I'm sure it is out there where you get teachers who are very hands-on and all that stuff. But it's just really cool to look at, Joe was a legendary teacher and performer and I plan on doing more of these biographies and spotlights on Max Roach, Papa Joe Jones, all these guys. It's important to keep their name in the forefront and for younger generations to check out their work. It really is really, really important. So let's tell people they can find you at Steve Fiddick. So it's s-t-e-v-e f-i-d-y-k f-i-d-y-k.com So Steve Fiddick.com You're on social media. You're on all that stuff. So people can dig into your discography. I'm sure if they search you on Spotify or Apple Music, I think I find you on Spotify. It's just easy to, you know, click and listen and hear what Steve's all about and what his lessons with Joe produced to this day. This particular recording, Bart, if your listeners are interested in purchasing a physical copy, they can go to Blue Canteen Music which is a new record label that I started earlier this year, bluecanteenmusic.com and if they purchase a physical copy, I'm donating a portion of the proceeds to Warrior Beat and Warrior Beat is an organization that helps enrich the lives of military veterans suffering with PTS and anxiety through hand drumming. So this organization warriorbeat.org if your listeners can go check out their mission at warriorbeat.org this group purchases hand drums and they hand out hand drums to military veterans and it's a form of music therapy for these men and women and now this wouldn't be on streams, it would be on physical copies sold so if they go to Blue Canteen Music and purchase a copy of the new record and it's charting on Jazz Week, it's doing well it's getting some nice reviews so I'm really I'm grateful for that I'm appreciative of that seven original compositions of mine and actually one Brubeck tune that they recorded on a trip in 1958 when they were in Poland and so that's on this recording as well so if your listeners are so inclined if they want to check it out they can go to bluecanteenmusic.com and thank you for the plug Oh yeah, no I think everyone should go listen and support and buy a physical copy to help with the warriorbeat kind of collaboration there so that's cool awesome Steve, well I think a deep dive into Joe Morello and I feel pretty confident that we covered it and drove home that this you know, he's an absolute integral part of drum history so Steve, thank you for being on the show and I look forward to hearing what you keep doing in the future and all that good stuff Thanks again for having me Bart, I greatly appreciate the opportunity to speak to your listeners, may God bless If you like this podcast find me on social media at Drum History and please share, rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time, keep on learning This is a Gwyn Sound podcast