e where they know even if you say it's the identified they don't trust you are you asking them to say what they really ate so maybe they ate a chicken maybe they ate a goat what if they ate an antelope in a country where it's illegal to do so so it's very difficult to get good dietary diversity scores it's also very difficult to work in settings where through certain prejudices I guess that eating certain foods is considered uncivilized or backward so who wants to say they ate a mouse, a field mouse and yet it's a great product as good as a sardine if you ask me but it can be hard for people to answer those questions when we've spent a long time telling people what is and isn't good food we spend a long time telling people you should plant and sell maize and yet it's been less than helpful in the long run in terms of nutrition so that was a long way around to say that we've all made mistakes and we're about to make more mistakes but by sharing them we hopefully minimize them doing this interdisciplinary research is really hard work I'm not sure that five years is long enough to create a team that functions well together but we're having a go and it is hardest I have to say for my colleagues from Australia who have had time in the field they don't understand and what they need are opportunities to sit down and listen but because of university calendars they can't spend the time in the field to understand so I apologize in advance for those of us who come in and think we know and don't hang around long enough to understand that we don't know key challenges that leads me on to this one and they teach in blocks that can't be changed that does not correspond to agricultural calendars so it means that people are not on the ground when they need to be to learn those lessons and to listen to farmers so it's a real challenge and I don't know it's something donors do have to grapple with about who should be on team and how they learn to listen from the people who know the situation better than anyone else we had a change of government and we had a delayed start to our project and we've had different governments and different leadership within ministries during the project really the rainy seasons are just all over the place and if it's not raining then it's flooding and it's been heartbreaking for communities traditional beliefs understandings around food it takes time to understand why they're there research design thinking about your sample size tools and time frame it can be very hard to do this so all you can do is do your best and do your best within the available budget public health folk tend to have more money than we do on the animal health side so you have to be realistic about what you can achieve or partner with those who tend to have a bit more money and once again interdisciplinary research think about it and use it at the right time now I like this one this is from Sons Award in Tanzania so my question is when is a chicken egg not a chicken egg so we have this is chips mayay for those of you who know it so egg and chips on the left we have it's a commercial egg from Tanzania on the right hand side we have a beautiful village chicken egg now part of what we did to try and say thank you to communities was that we wanted to give them little gifts on a regular basis and because we had a focus on eggs I came up with the great idea of giving out eggs unfortunately we didn't have enough village chicken eggs so we gave out commercial eggs some people who received them were very concerned once again I mean they've learnt to be a bit unsure about what white people do but they thought we were giving them snake eggs they had never seen an egg with such a pale yolk so it's tricky the rainfall pattern where we've been working we monitor rainfall in our areas it's been highly variable we know that for the first year we had very low rainfall even in the second year where we had better rainfall our rainy seasons are becoming shorter when it does rain you seem to get very heavy downfalls with poor absorption into the soil so it's tricky in these communities where rain-fed agriculture is so important didn't rain didn't rain and then it poured and it was going down the field trip these young men as you know own money by car and motorcycles so key messages is that this sort of work does require interdisciplinary research and if you need somebody to back you up you can quote nature because they now have kindly given us some tutorials here where we can try to start to explain how hard it is and that it does take longer and because it takes longer it needs a little bit more money but because of the complexity it really is we have to do it because doing short, poorly funded research it doesn't give you any good options now, with that build up just some quick findings of where we've got up to with our project right now so this is work largely done by Julia, the PhD student and research assistant with our project and we were all really happy for the first 18 months with what she was finding about what was turning out to be significant for those of you who like didn't show up significant in our study at this point in time what did show up as if it was around chicken ownership number of chickens owned cattle got a look in the first 18 months what's happened as we've added the next six months is that everything seemed changing we pushed out beyond the 0.5 level for chicken ownership it's hard to know why this is happening why it could be as we've talked about the multiple roles of livestock so that if you've had poor harvest you have to sell things so basically because of this long run of very poor rainfall possibly assets have had to have been mined, explored and exploited so that's one possible reason but it's still important to show that there would seem to be some linkage there even though this is now becoming a little tenuous sorry I should qualify for these Z scores does everyone know what a Z score is well for those of you who like me thought it was a very strange thing to say just a way of trying to look at the height of a child and you're looking to see how that's changed all the time so you measure young children up to two by lying down and once they're two and over you you get some sense and the Z score is a way of thinking how they're going against what you'd like for progression for healthy growth what was interesting here when Julia just looked at predicted means is that there just seemed to be some trend here around having chickens leading to less stunts the green children have grown well the children who had access to everything to be doing things that we had to learn about was trying to look at not only about chickens but it's about how those chickens roast and here you can see another really important thing which is about that time meaning so for me as a farmer growing up on chicken cattle property we take great care of nutrition of our animals for that period of time making sure that the young animals have access to what they need that's a critical concern what has been really badly done and I feel that we do need to say sorry to some of these communities children are largely being weaned on to cereal diet which is nowhere to compare so it must not have been that way your history here in New York where the bread needs Africa you must have weaned children on to better food before we started pushing some of our cash crops so it's not worth nutritionally understanding how that altered and how do we now because we make it sound as if it's a problem that these people are feeding the wrong thing but where did that idea come from where did that composition of what was raised on the farm and what was suggested as being the modern approach where did that come from we all play a role in where we are right now but for those of us coming from the veterinary science just to remember that we do start growth by age you tend to apparently part of the world often in many cases they've got their best length at birth and because of poor diet it just gets worse as you go along there is also a difference between gender so you will see that young girls tend to grow better than young girls that's surprising power I think it was we mentioned that there is now literature suggesting that close contact with animals can cause in terms of access to people contamination so that suggested that contact with poultry in New York can lead to something in children this work has been based on secondary documentation largely using data and doing calculations to look at that it's founded in some country not all countries what we have to say when we look at links between chicken ownership and restricted growth in our data we do not find that as I presented in the previous one in fact chicken ownership seems to have a lead to a better outcome for children so the next question that our data was able to answer for is does it depend on where these chickens are spending the night so if they are inside human dwelling would there be more potential for more contact and lead to problems so when we had a look at our two weekly data where we have been reporting incidents of diarrhea in children and their overall health status just on visual assessment by our community assessment what we found that there was no significant relationship between where chickens were held and what was happening in terms of incidents of diarrhea there was no pattern that was apparent there and as if you remember from the previous slide in fact the best outcomes the growth has been seen to be associated with chickens being kept inside why are we seeing different results from different countries it's complex and really the important and take home message that we need to get out to the public health community is that a chicken is not just a chicken they're not all the same they talk about poultry what species of poultry what breed of poultry and how is that bird raised we should not be having these discussions about animals or about different cropping systems without qualifying the production of the farming system because they're going to be different and going to lead to different outcomes one of our students animal and veterinary science student kindly was interested in the mothers not just in the children so she looked at data we've been recording data that allowed us to calculate body mass index in the mothers and what she found probably is not overly surprising but the time of taking that measurement really makes a difference so when women were measured in a number their BMI was much higher in May which if you think back to the time of the hunger season in this area that sort of matches water source BMI is higher with women that had access to real water sources have to squeeze in foul air still not that .05 cut off but close very close and toilet facilities some suggestions of association there we found no association with BMI and women with ownership of large ruminants small ruminants with their marital status and interestingly in educational level for any of our analyses educational level of the mothers has not with what we use there it hasn't come out as strongly associated that's probably because it's a very poor area and we need to use a finer way of assessing those who have not been to the community to assess the school at all maybe I just wanted to say thank you not us certainly looking at the way we use all of the egg so not just eating what's inside the egg but is it going to be possible to use crushed eggshell to deal with calcium deficiency that's the work in progress and we're dealing with the food safety part now and Haley's doing that we have a Tanzanian students who's looking at bacterial pathogens from poultry that are of interest looking at seasonal level and prevalence across production system aflatoxins we all know that aflatoxins are now a huge problem were they always a problem we don't necessarily have the data we know it's a problem now we know that with weather variability and stress on plants they're going to become increasingly a problem we know that certain varieties have more of a problem with aflatoxins and what happens with grains that don't look good for people to eat we give them to our animals but then accumulate the toxin that we then enjoy so this is what Godfrey's having a look at I've shown you some of the work by Sasha and Julia's work there as well so thank you to those students a bibliography for your enjoyment and I look forward to answering your question thank you Robin indeed it was 30 minutes not 15 as I thought so we're almost at lunchtime we have a couple of so what we're going to try to do is we have a couple of things we need to get to I've been told we have to have a group photo mandatory for all events right so we're going to try to do that before lunch because some people are leaving so just before lunch we go out for a photo we have about only three or four minutes so what I want you to do insects and birds and yeah so what do we conclude I'm going to head to your WS Paola is Paola still here so you're Illry's nutritionist right so you'll be able to say something on this from Illry's point of view I have a small flock of chickens and we harvest the termites and feed them termites once a week okay so you're okay we speed the people okay does Illry have any thoughts on insects, termites and I know if you pay or even Isabel you're the deputy head of the program responsible for nutrition and I'm French yeah yeah we have been considering we have I think Delia actually has one proposal on the pipeline about insects as we improve human conception we are considering as one of the options we should think about it in terms of understanding better and I think Delia is a better place I am not better place I'm going to pass the microphone to Paola but I think you know it doesn't really qualify as livestock at least for now yeah nutrition but I mean given that Illry yeah but given that Illry has focused on livestock production definitely for nutrition might be interesting but I'm not sure how much Illry wants to go into that direction that's all and if we start farming them which we could but I'm wondering insects for animal food similar to the chickens so mass production and etc yeah I mean we're looking here at protein protein sources for humans to improve their nutrition right so it sounds like there's bugs there's a lot of potential there sounds like okay Jenny is very good so blood guys what about blood bugs yeah so when we were going through all the bug questions I mean it struck me how many insects came up and I think we asked for crazy foods right but how many bugs are consumed all year round or is it much more of a seasonal thing right I mean and how you might get really steep peaks and valleys with bug availability and are people preserving them someone said cricket flower are people selling them are they making income are they proud that they eat it are they embarrassed that they eat it do we have time for more discussion around that okay does anyone have a comment about that I think these are foods that are broadly consumed and especially for Kenya in western Kenya and so they are widely consumed I was talking earlier to Rosa Pio who left and she said that just before she left for home she passed through the market and they have them locally sold in the market like the termites so they're easily available only that I think they're more available during the rainy season especially the termites so yeah yeah okay I would just like to add okay they are more available during the rain season but even off season they are produced traditionally there's a way of making them come out you create an environment where you're able to harvest them and they are sold off season they are very expensive in season they are much cheaper but they are rich in good essential fatty acids they are also very rich because they are eaten whole they are rich in calcium and also a good source of protein so they are used as a mean as a protein source and also they are eaten as a snack can I do a couple more yeah I have done one of the details of the Kenyan diet but I've spent some time in Senegal and Zaire now DRC and insects of all types are widely available in the market but they are primarily used as spices and supplements in a lot of the traditional food so I think they are very commonly used okay I don't need to belabor and me I'm back to the DRC example caterpillars were available during like three months of the year and they were the food at that time they were the source of income the major source of income for these poor women and they were the source of food they would even eat only caterpillars if there was nothing else available something about being proud or not I can remember it was held like 20-30 times back and forth and one time there was somebody can you take along a package for me and me, yes I can without knowing actually what was inside but then when I came home I realized that I was struggling with 5 kgs of caterpillars in my back so to say that people really do everything to access their food it's also linked with traditions some people really express their cultural identity by the things they are eating so and then to end this story how long can you keep them if they are well dried I've never found a person so after two years these caterpillars were still at my place and then a Congolese came to visit me and we still ate them so you can keep them quite low at least two years so any more quick thoughts on this are you going to move on? let's hear over here I've seen people eat caterpillars both the slender ones and the very fat ones I tried and they could not get through my tongue because I was imagining eating some some wadudu but the question I normally ask we normally look at things that come from the ground as all goods are there any safety risks that as you said they grow because there are a lot of toxic dumping going on right now would the environment of the soil lead to some toxic accumulation given they have a lot of fat that we can refer to ourselves so that we could have guidelines on where to harvest them from and where not to harvest them from safety issues probably we don't have an answer so we do not quite an answer but on daily we're developing some regulations, some guidelines for feed manufacturers or use insects as part of water content so if it can be done for animal feed then it can also be done for human consumption so that then those safety issues are under but as standard there's already been developed on those insects that will be used for feed from the nation any more points around anything else, do you want to talk about the blood or anything else or do you want to just leave these and you give your prizes you'll raffle off something and do it a bit later okay put them in the bin alright yeah yeah good so let's do that you'll pull a couple out and then people will have some prizes anything else I haven't heard people talk about grasshoppers but my experience in Uganda they are green grasshoppers called which are very popular during the season and they have been commercialized and they are packed in nice sandwich packages and it's a delicacy to the people who understand it for those of you not familiar and if you ever are in Uganda and go to Masaka during the season the lights in the town all have large cones underneath them so as the grasshoppers fly up they drop down and the people are down collecting them so there's an actual industry around it okay so I'm looking for Paola now so when you do your nutritional assessments are these sort of things included in those assessments in your guidelines step number one was some kind of a nutritional assessment or something which vets don't do very well yeah but nutritionists do do they also include all these bugs and things in their nutritional assessments you would normally do that yeah yeah that would be if you do a proper assessment on the dietary practices you would include everything from traditional foods, bush foods bugs so yeah it would be okay two more hands here from the UNICEF assessment for dietary diversity for ana fives that's one of the things like the food list insects bugs and all those is one of them that you ask about so it's included in the dietary diversity for children okay good I think we need to wrap the session up and move on to the next piece is that right Jenny? so thank you very much for that that was just kind of a fun thing to explore differences so what do we do next are you in charge? I'm handing over the microphone do I think yeah I'm in charge Edwin we need to change how do we change this at the power point in the morning? okay so Carmen we're getting to pass out the design no this is fine while this is getting set up I'm curious show of hands do people consider insects animal source foods so that's really not very many people in here so what are insects then? so are they animal source foods? the next session is meant to be a little bit more fun and interactive and we are going to how to do these nutrition sensitive livestock programs recognize that there is not there are not a lot of resources out there and they're kind of hard and that there might be a void or a need for kind of a quick design aid so this is building a little bit off of how this presentation that she was working on with FAO how to design these projects what's in them and this design aid is going to hopefully be complimentary to that report in that it walks practitioners through both for donors as well as for implementing organizations what are about livestock programs how do we do this? so you're a guinea pig this might be another American reference but so like 101 you might like what's the 101 it's a road or something so guinea pigs are typically used in scientific research so for you you're helping us guinea pigs today guinea pigs are also pretty tasty so this is building off of historically kind of this mixed evidence that livestock programs improve nutrition and the guide is trying to incorporate best practices and lessons learned from previous experience both published as well as kind of anecdotal just down in the trenches doing this work there are references to other resources and it's been really trying to align with existing FAOs spring and other multi-sectoral nutrition recommendations out there so what do we want to do? you guys all should have your this aid now in front of you and really would like to have you guys take some time to look at it read through it reflect on it everyone should have a pen if you don't have a writing utensil come find me we can get you one you can write on it scribble on it circle it explain what you don't understand and then within your table group kind of talk through it there on the next slide there are some questions kind of you can go through and in your folder you should also have a design aid feedback form that you can use to kind of guide your discussion what are we looking for feedback on what don't you understand etc and then we're going to once you have your small group after about 20 minutes or so and if people are done and this is boring we can move on and just have more discussion time that's fine but take one or two points from your table that you would like to share so what we didn't like what is missing, what's not intuitive what you think I should be there are there resources that we completely missed on does something make no sense do we need to elaborate on points and then we're going to go around and kind of share that feedback and then if you haven't finished filling in your feedback form you can work on that and then we'd like to have both feedback form as well as your aid given back to us because hopefully there might be some comments or questions or circles or whatever on that this is going to keep moving forward so I promise to give you the next version of this aid but it's not like you just get this one now and then you can keep on going we will share it once all of this pilot feedback has been implemented but please sit back so some questions to think about while you're going through I'm just going to leave these here what do you like, what doesn't make sense what's missing as an organization when you are designing these projects what other questions do you ask when you're thinking about this what would be important to have here and then there is a section of indicators what other indicators would you want to include and other just other feedback thank you everyone just to add on to what Jenny was saying we've talked a lot about Jenny and I as this was being developed on really who is the intended audience for such a guide and I think that for this room many of you are researchers but we also have a lot of implementing partners practitioners etc so this has a bit of a two fold audience one is that the true design team I work on a new business a lot designing for programs I know that I put things in there that may be questionable when you have to actually implement them and so what Jenny and I were discussing was that yes it can help you design the program but for those teams we were actually trying to implement the program that was designed that often end up in silos you have your market team you have your production team you have your nutrition team what we were trying to do is help them understand how they can maybe implement a little better or understand how they could break down some silos so as we go through this exercise what Jenny and I are asking you to do is wear that hat when I was helping start up a program would this be a helpful tool because in the end of the day what we are looking for is a tool that will get us to a better implementation of a program so thank you does anybody have any questions okay thank you for being our guinea pig yeah information there for both definitely design and start a little bit less technical stuff of start up but there is also things in there that would be useful for implementation and especially going into this adaptive stuff you know this is how it looks like in design but while we are in the implementation do we need to shift focus just one last announcement we have a missing registration pack that has someone's notes in it when they came in and reorganized the rooms that book went somewhere else so please take a look at your registration pack and see if there is notes in there that you don't recognize and then deliver them to this lady really digging deeper and saying what is the socioeconomic context who is who are the agents of change in the communities how do you identify them and how do you work with them gathering information from that level so that that builds your design and also reduces assumptions because we tend to bring in a lot of baggage as people from the outside and make a lot of assumptions something I remember is the mention of several other documents so maybe I link to those documents in case somebody needs more information on that can be given thank you we really to start with what we really like the first page is very straightforward helpful contains an enormous amount of useful information and the guiding questions overall are extremely useful and we imagine they could be used throughout the entire process just keep referring to them the key concepts are full of very densely packed information and we would have I think benefited more from them with each one or processed with why this piece of information would be important to you how you would use it and even perhaps the template to follow so for example explaining I think intuitively a calendar is a useful thing but here's the five key questions you should ask yourself while you're creating the calendar for your program in order to be able to capture information that would be most useful for a nutrition socialist program and then a template and any of the social behavior change communication are there some more resources that could help me that was I think the main points that we had come up with that they're so densely packed each piece could be elaborated a little more with how would you use this, why is it useful and here's some steps you could take from the calendar for your program additionally we looked at the theory of change and we feel there's a mix up of the level of production and availability for sale and consumption we feel we have been in the change the table please thank you generally from the discussion from this table the guide is appealing the the pictorial especially the introduction bit of it however we found that how to use the guide those numbered 1, 2, 3, 7 they are not followed in the way the guide format is so the formatting is it's a bit critical to be addressed number page 2 also we found that when we looked at the key concept the livestock the livestock fulfill many laws and what is written they are not starting together because what you are finding on the left is the asset the human natural and it is not coming in that it's not addressed it's not you get the word in the next paragraph this is where you read that livestock assets then it starts wondering where were they but they are up there but they are not available that pictorial bit of it clearly the bit on the calendar the seasonal calendar coming it's coming out very clearly it's nice and the pictorial bit of it gives a guidance however this should be formatted in the way that it should come in the right place so that it is guiding the person using the guide then another on page page page 5 that is where now we got a bit concerned about the pictorial it doesn't seem to be delivering the message it is meant to be delivering so there is need to be the organization on that one so that maybe it can come in the form of a chart not necessarily in this way it is put here as a diagram they are the bit on page 6 these guiding questions this is what should come initially from the first page it is the second rather than the size of the information so from the guide it's coming on the last page it's confusing where is it coming in and how is it to be used so if it can be organized it's informative and can be directly be used or be of use so I think that one and then again I think it has been mentioned by Table 2 about using this or refer to other manuals like I could say in page 1 like manuals the bit now it's not an attachment it can be improved I think the group can also share if they have something else to add thank you thank you on the guiding questions and one of the discussion we had was why we think about animal animals as a standalone issue of animal input it's better to look systematically including housing feed breeding and management because they are equally important at the same time they are interlinked and from nutrition perspective housing, animal housing might be a lot related to health so that was the point we discussed as well thank you very much the document has quite information that would be helpful in making decisions and formulating programs but we are feeling there would be a need to make it a bit much more focused so that it's an easy way to properly guide it it's a bit a mix up but it has very good information page 2 looking at the start yes it provides a range and what's happening for crops like sorg-dry season we not see the statistics so we can look at that then there was a table there on page 3 we were talking about nutritional content animals also and she did mention that camomilky you could include that then there's I thought there is a social and previous communication tool which is quite, you can't make anything out of it, you can't so it's not legible so we make it helpful then again probably a piece of numbering on page 5 we were looking at that, that decision making and we saw what at the end of the day is it the optimal decision that could have been made we saw what we're not able to bring out what the make it was when we read that then there was the sticks we were looking at that and we were still deriberating and we were saying that this guiding question when considering a nutrition life of project yes it is nutrition social causes animal health environmental market policy but economics was missing because we did mention here that life of contributing so that bit would be considered would this improve the income other than just culture that for something not quite agreed but we were discussing that so we can throw it broadly then we also the issue of life of product was kind of one thing life but not life of product that could also come my colleagues here thank you thank you for giving us a chance to help you with your free testing that's really appreciated that's all I think it definitely feels again and I think the challenges just saying that we didn't have complete agreement around something is the diversity of your target audience so some people here have an intimate knowledge and understanding whereas others of us are just parachuting in and understand so that's your challenge thank you as well as the reporter so we have some commonality with other groups so I won't repeat that I think what I have not heard so far that you felt that it would have been useful to have the pathway more explicit in that document and maybe possibly structure help use them as to structure the guide and of course we noticed as well that some of the pathway were actually anything in particular a bit clear on about woman empowerment and how it contributes to that relationship we were a bit unclear as well about the theory of change wondering whether it is useful because it can get quite complex and therefore do you want to have something that is simple and meet actually what could be useful for the theory of change which is to look at assumptions when you move from one block to the other when you don't see that the linkage is happening why is it so and this is the purpose of a theory of change I believe but that gets very complex so we were not sure whether we want to go into that anything else about more let's go back it's always good to be last because we said everything we wanted to say and maybe just to emphasize was on page 5 it was totally misplaced to the example because first season mathematically it wasn't making a change so we tried to calculate and it just didn't make sense at all including tables to buy other things consumption at the end of the day was totally lost along the way then the economic component was also we found it missing as one of our colleagues have mentioned the end result is also economic empowerment so that people can relieve the resources for other household items then the component we thought that it should flow using the value chain approach all the way from production to management of consumption and all that in a systematic way using color from after the introduction if you go the value chain approach it will flow there was a bit of a challenge with flow and then on the last page about the programming principle some of them we thought there should be more information regarding that target the vulnerable and improve equity there should be more information regarding the definitions you know because you want to empower community you also talk about empowering women but it should also be coupled with the other division which has written households because it should be the approach should be also bigger broader than just empowered women should be there but you know you're empowering the community I think there's 19 members have something else to say good thank you a huge thank you the feedback was very good and spot on I agree with most of it for us this is a zero draft so it's just the beginning and we'll be rolling it out hopefully in a few weeks or months Jennings do you have anything you want to say again no just thank you very much everybody I really appreciate feedback it's going to be really helpful as far as I'm going forward there are there are actually a lot of spare copies so if you do want to draft for them feel free to take a spare copy but please leave your scribbles on one here yeah just do it in the middle of people so you don't forget to leave a comment along with your feedback form and I think we're going to turn it back over to Peter so thank you everybody very much thanks guys give yourselves applause and your facilitators good okay we're entering the we're entering the last hour we're going to do a couple of things around around 3.30 we expect the USA to wake up so we think there will be more people on the webinar coming in so we're going to reopen the webinar around 3.30 what we're going to try to do is before that before lunch we had some presentations we didn't really have time to ask some of the critical questions we collected a lot of questions we're going to come back to some of those in a moment kind of interact with the speakers but we thought we would spend 10 minutes now with some of the questions so for example we collected quite a few questions that were very specifically for Robin and I don't want him to leave the room so what we thought to do was to collect any specific questions right before the coffee the lunch we have Robin we have Paola and we have Sylvia I don't know if you can remember so far back so are there any specific questions for those three we're going to come back afterwards and we'll have a more general conversation we have a very specific question for Robin, Sylvia or Paola that you really say I want to get a targeted chance to talk ask a question I'm not seeing a lot of yes good, say who the question is for please my question is from our farmer Robin she said she was a farmer in the morning yeah so in the presentation we noticed that there was no significant difference between the nutritional status for the households that had their livestock, their chickens staying in the house overnight and those that did not have chickens spending together with the humans in the house some evidence are shown that in households that with the livestock they have more contamination and they have more tunting do you have some explanation on that Robin yes, good in our group we were wondering whether there was nutrition education as part of the intervention yes two questions, is there one more? two more, yeah, okay I would like to know how the community vaccinators work, how they're incentivized and also whether vaccination is optional or somehow mandatory how it's encouraged at the household level in the village where they're working so we have the vaccinators in and out of the house sorry and Christian here was nutrition education, yep good and Christian and then we'll go on so my question is I've spoken with Robin before about the results of the research and I recall and again this was a couple of months ago but that in your experience and again this may not be documented with great data yet or whatnot but after about two years of the program you did see an increase in consumption of poultry products by households and so I was just wondering if you could comment on some of those preliminary results around actual consumption if possible good, okay we had a little bit of time Delia so we're giving the grilling Robin separately so four questions fantastic yes, thank you very much for your questions and I'm just amazed that you were listening so that's great, thank you chicken children housing community if you think about all the different breeds of chickens we've been raising them for over 8000 years they're very close association with us the finding or the suggested finding that having chickens inside may be causing problems with children is complex and it may be the case in some places it is not the case in our finding what we know and even in the days of avian influenza everyone was telling people chickens are bad, keep them out of your house but for those households who depend on their chickens you take the chicken outside maybe it's not there tomorrow so the reason why people have chickens in their house is about actual security financial security for their household some of the data that's been used to suggest linkages has not the formula approach has not yielded the same findings in every country that's been done and it's using secondary data and in some cases not data that was specifically designed to answer those questions and so one of the points that I made and maybe I didn't make it sufficiently clearly and I think for the public health community when you are documenting this type of information you need to be precise a village chicken that's raised extensively that lives in a closed environment that doesn't have regular contact with commercial chickens probably has a lower disease burden when they scavenge for their own feed and they don't consume a rich cereal based diet that microbiome is probably different so I think we need to be very precise commercial chickens where we have most of the data about the levels of salmonella, carnalabacter those food safety issues are very well studied there's very limited data on looking at the prevalence of those diseases under village conditions so we just need to be sure and so with all of this work read the literature and then make up your own minds because we always learn if the literature was always correct we could go home so it may be true in some cases it may not be the answer in all cases so in our data we found no association in fact the association that we found with birth and children was positive but the tendency was that it was higher where households had children so it's tricky nutrition education they only gave me 30 minutes so yes it's there but it's an evolving process as well so that when we do provide the education we do it in a way that is sensitive because you know and as I mentioned the difficulty of doing randomization walking into a home for a single mum where her husband walked away and to see the resources at her disposal it's really hard for me just to tell her to feed these to the child so trying to do things in a way it takes time to come up with the literature and the approach that seems feasible for community vaccinators I've been working for 20 years with Lily Stickens from trying to keep them alive and to prevent new couple disease we know the vaccine so that was not the issue and so the idea of giving the vaccine away free of charge was also not the issue our key question was is the investment in this control program going to make sense to a ministry of finance and so we took the hard option of saying community vaccinators get rewarded by the community so if you want your birth vaccinated you pay as a charge for vaccination and then the vaccinators also meant to go and buy their own vaccine because we really didn't have any more interest in showing that a donor funded project gives things away for free work and then to come back two years later to find there was nothing on the ground that was not of interest to us and for the question about two years we're only just, we're three years into this project the observation it taking two years to see a change is from previous work where we've done where we know that for communities to decide to decide to alter the way going on takes time and it's not about understanding what's going on it's about them having certainty that the vaccine is still going to come that all of these changes are going to hang around so it takes about two years for communities to decide that maybe this time the intervention is actually useful but they have some confidence that the vaccine is going to arrive when it's needed so lots of things for people to decide to make a change to what is a very finely balanced approach that they have to manage and guess an important option thank you thanks Robin okay I'll answer your question yes, everyone get an answer happy answer yes, follow up, very good yep, please I'm not sure on a today well you answer to the third question about I think the question was how sort of being incentivized to participate and your answer was like they were to pay the vaccinations yes, it's the secret if your vaccinators are happy and motivated so in that case I'm just trying to understand, so what did you do to make the vaccination come to visit them because if they are paying could that actually come to the village early on there'd been no training in these villages so we selected and moved to areas where vaccination had not been introduced but in many cases where you were working particularly closer to big cities there may have been vaccination campaigns that have been poorly introduced so sometimes what you have to do is overcome bad experiences when the vaccination arrived when the disease was already outbreak was underway and you just make it look like you're actually killing of those so there are all lots of stories out there make it look like the vaccines are getting the births, okay good I'm assuming that we have quite some questions for Paola Sylvia and Delia and Jenny as well but we have them collected, we're gonna have a bit of an exercise now so you have like one minute to organize yourself a little bit, you've been sitting for a while I recommend you stand up you swivel around and then you sit down again something like that just because we're gonna change the we're gonna change the dynamic a little bit yes, so I need yeah, so just stand up spin around, stretch an arm are you leaving us okay, thank you very much you left your things here, very good I will steal your chair then I need that good, so I hope you've had a chance to swing around thank you very much I know a couple of people are leaving we're missing you already as they say we're gonna do kind of a wrap up session if you can maybe move your chair over here for the next session we need them to be on the screen otherwise you'll be on the screen are they good okay, good I can see a few people sneaking out, are they going away or are they just going for a more break some are leaving okay Paula has to be there waiting for Sylvia to come up to her place there's a lot of a lot of people go outside, are they gonna, do you see them are people coming back in again do you think are they coming back in again do you think I know that, yeah so folks we're gonna do the last session if you're sitting far away you can come a bit closer if you like it's not nice or it's back table maybe you can come closer and just be a bit cozier there's a word in Dutch called gazelle which means being collectively friendly with each other close together cozy and friendly, good so we're gonna change the focus welcoming the webinar I think I'm looking for Edwin is Edwin hearing me upstairs, yes anybody online yes okay, are there very many people online one two three four I can't hear you you're early look at that one I don't want to okay I think it okay welcome to for the people on the Webex this is the animal source group livestock nutrition station workshop, we're at the last session we have one hour, we're gonna wrap up what we did my class now is very briefly that's all what we did today and the panel has come in on the Webex so basically we've been looking at animal source foods for nutrition impact and we just have a finger on evidence of good practices for better and we started off some welcome remarks that's why we're here and demonstrate how animal source can contribute to nutritional outcome and about digging evidence and how have we done that we started off with Jenny and all our speakers are sitting on the bench here a bench on a group of chairs and they should all be on the camera yeah, for the Webex we don't see it ourselves but they will be seeing you on the camera so don't do anything strange so we started off, Jenny from Land O'Lake basically reintroduced in a sense how animal source contributes to nutrition, the science the nutritional science and showed the importance of meat milk and eggs in our diets from a kind of scientific perspective Delia Grace from Illry she talked about the livestock nutrition pathway it's called Pathway on the agenda but it's Pathways we discovered there are many many different ways in which you can try to bring livestock nutrition together and she showed us a nice picture of a different pathway she said something like none of them work but they're all worth trying that's not a quote something like that so we spent some time after the break looking at different pathways so we had three presentations Delia started us off with a kind of a report back on a global literature review with an emphasis on lower middle income countries looking again at the influence of livestock derived foods on nutrition what I took away from that was that there is evidence there is not evidence there are significant positive relationships between livestock derived foods and children but there is no real evidence of nutritional outcomes however there is clear evidence of health risks and there seems to be some evidence of environmental issues so it wasn't all good news very little evidence could be found we then heard from Paula who took us through an evolving and emerging I think and one school of high genotropical medicine set of guidelines on how to improve program planning to meet nutritional outcomes and that for me the main message was really very much start with nutrition from the very beginning you're going to design and plan for nutrition make sure you do it properly pay attention to many all the different dimensions so it wasn't just have nutrition make it very very visible and then we heard from Robin about the impact of poultry intervention Robin Alders from University of Sydney who claims to be a farmer as well about the impact of poultry intervention on household nutrition in Tanzania and for me the big thing there was that it sounded like a totally new type of research had to be done insights from the research process itself and you gave us some preliminary insights and lessons from the the work but very much about the challenges we're trying to do real research evidence based research that really has you know meets all the ethical standards as well with human objects as well as animal objects so that's what we did after lunch we had an exercise about to design kind of a design guidance product that land of legs are working on and we got feedback on that and we're now in a session where we're going to synthesize what we got from the whole meeting so we're going to start with our five speakers once more I've given you a little bit of a flavor each of them has been asked to give us a two minute pitch yeah explaining the essence of their presentation for somebody who missed it yeah so we heard this morning the challenges are trying to present the work in 30 minutes you now have two so shall we start in the same reverse order or same order Jenny has the microphone so she's ready to go same order Jenny tell us, give us the essence in two minutes alright thank you so hi everybody out there in Webinar World I'm Jenny Lane I'm an animal health and livelihood technical advisor from land of legs and I spoke on the potential contribution of animal food to nutrition outcomes and my main take home message is that a small amount of animal source food can vastly increase the nutritional content of a mostly cereal based diet globally amounted nutrition is a giant problem still something wasting and hidden hunger of micronutrients deficiencies are very prevalent around the world still and animal source foods are rich food based solutions full of many micronutrients that can address a lot of the malnutrition under nutrition issues that we have in the world and I covered the content the special what's the good stuff in milk, meat and eggs and their nature super food I think thank you Jenny takeaways yes, super foods hello I'm Collie the animal and human health program here at Ilway so if livestock products are nature super foods, why don't we have any good evidence that livestock interventions can lead to nutritional outcomes one of the reasons is that the pathways between livestock intervention and nutritional outcomes are very complex, multiple and some of them go in the wrong direction taking it towards the worst health the good news is that there are a number of conceptual frameworks which help us understand these complicated links between livestock interventions and nutritional outcomes including one developed especially for animal source foods by early scientists we can say of these that they are just approximations to the truth, all of them are wrong and all of them are useful but if you want your project to have a nutritional outcome and to demonstrate it get one of these pathways, find one and use it in your planning impact assessment and reporting thanks Delia I have another microphone Sylvia I think you're next there will be a lot of from early scientists in the animal and human health team so not only we don't have enough evidence on the livestock interventions and nutritional outcomes but we have very limited evidence too on the effect of animal focused interventions and nutritional outcomes so all these come from the view of the literature with them for the report looking at the effect of livestock that I put products in the first thousand days but there's a few things that I think we can say from that like the poor are eating little livestock that I put for now especially that this applies to women and infants diets that they are in low and middle income countries that are very suboptimal so even though convincing scientific evidence on livestock that I put and nutrition is limited there is some room to improve the diets especially women and children in low and middle income countries to sort of make it more close to the recommended diets now we also need to be aware though of the risks of promoting livestock that I put consumption and health risks derived from foodborne diseases DCT and overconsumption and many other things need to be sort of looked at but still especially when it comes to food safety and foodborne diseases this is quite a fixable problem so we shouldn't shy away from sort of promoting livestock that I put consumption what is needed the other negative potential effect this environmental effect and all the big debate about the impact of livestock in the environment by what's going on in northern countries I think when it comes to low and middle income countries there is still room to preserve and improve even consumption and livestock that I put is still preserving the environment so all these and more in an upcoming report from Ilri and Chatham house that will be out in about in August 2017 so my name is Paula Dominguez and I'm a joint position between Ilri and the London School of Aging and Tropical Mixing and despite all these challenges and lack of evidence in some areas etc. there's also a good resource to believe that livestock and animal interventions have a lot of potential and the background work that we have done is that there is still a lot of disconnect in the field so because of that in a collaborative work which we did between FAO Royal Veterinary College and Ilri we drafted some FAO guidelines on program planning on livestock and nutrition that hopefully will be released in a few weeks hopefully and they give a little bit of ideas on how to make specifically livestock interventions nutrition sensitive and this is important because nutrition specific which are the opposite of nutrition sensitive so it's mainly conducted by nutritionists there has been estimation that even with a coverage of 80% it would only reduce something around 20% something which is good but it's not enough and actually the coverage for many of these interventions is far from being 80% even for 50% which means that given the huge problem that malnutrition is for individuals and for households and for countries we don't need to collaborate in one way or another so it's worth trying I really have a saying and those guidelines which we hope will be helpful will give an idea of how to because the thing with both nutrition and livestock production is that it's very context specific so it's not like you do this and that's it you have to assess in every situation which things can work better so those guidelines take you a little bit through what can be considered and how to think about how to think through the impact pathways to get the most useful intervention. Thank you and good morning my name is Robin Aldous and the University of Sydney kindly pays my salary and they are supporting my farming habit so I really am a farmer and might use our lambing as I sit here with you right now my task was to discuss impact of our work but I highlighted straight off that we're three years into a five year project and so and we've analyzed two years of those data so we're not really seeing the impact of our work we're understanding what was going on in those systems and we hope before the end of the fifth year that we can look at the impact of our intervention I spent a lot of time sharing what we've learnt along the way I think we all know that interdisciplinary work can be a great challenge and it really is as strong as it's weakest link so you really need to have people who are through disciplinary specialists involved and contributing and feeling comfortable about sharing what does and what does not work one of the great experiences for me with our current project has been the process of randomization I spent most of my time working with farmers where we may have made opportunity available at the community level to vaccinate chickens we chose to do follow up and work closely with the farmers who wanted to work with us with this project because we really want to understand our current project we wanted to understand what was happening across the community we took a randomized approach and it means you can't walk away from the household who don't adopt they're the ones from whom you learn the most they're often the most vulnerable and so it's been a great challenge understanding the ethical principles also moral principles which we need to take into account and the responsibility we have to the community who allow us to work with them doing work with human nutrition takes a long time and you need power for this idea of having sufficient sample size that you can do all these wonderful statistical calculations to come up with answers that mean something so that's the challenge I'm a great advocate of mixed methodology so you need to have lots of household but at the same time when you're doing your individual focus group discussions or key informant interviews what each person says is also powerful and sometimes it can be those who are brave enough to tell you something maybe that's just that one individual that makes a difference between understanding why things are not going well and the big difference so the idea of power and sample size can be hugely different depending whether you're talking about quantitative work or qualitative work I spent a little bit of time talking about what we've found so far in our project we started in February 2014 we've had very tough rainy season in the communities where we're working I guess for those people like me who like village chicken of the livestock species the only ones that have shown some association with improved outcome for growth in children has been chicken also with improved BMI in women we used the opportunity of working with households to track anthropometric indicators for both women and children if we had time and money in the household certainly the idea of focusing on women as children is the most vulnerable is crucial but everyone in the household should be able to be involved in some way so that's the main thing and I think the real lesson is for me is working with those communities they understand their circumstances they also understand why they may not be following and having a nutritious diet because they understand their limitations so far better than actually some of those pictures were a little longer than two minutes that's okay so what we're looking to do now is try to get a bit of a conversation among the folks sitting here but also amongst us as a group so we want you to come up with your questions I'm going to start a little bit with the questions we already shared this morning and we hope that some questions will come in during the webinar so Robin since you have the microphone I think still one of the questions that came in asked about what are the explicit nutrition indicators that can be built into agriculture related programs you just mentioned a couple can you tell us a little bit about what are the specific indicators in relation to animal source foods and nutrition that you used how did you come up with them how effective were they tell us about indicators an excellent question and the choice of indicators will depend very much on the timeframe of your project and your budget so if you have a short project anything under three years it's very hard to even contemplate looking at things like growth in children I would suggest that things such as dietary diversity and also people's understanding of the different role of the different types of food and the different components of food would be acceptable for short term projects even for a five year project I think while we are measuring length or height in children and BMI in women using biomarkers such as tracking vitamin A iron levels now that's something if you have the money you may be able to do that in a two year project and see improvements so there's no simple answer and you need to work with what's available in your area what your budget can come up with I'd just like to add to that because it's a trap which we've seen some projects fall into there's a wide variety of things which can be measured but if you want to prove a causal relationship as you're trying to do for example a randomized control trial and your objective is to show that your intervention has made a difference to nutritional outcomes it's important that you just choose one or two primary outcomes which are the things which your trial stands for followed by that is what you use to show whether or not you've had an impact on nutrition what we sometimes see in projects is they choose 9 or 10 different things it's A, vitamin A, it's stunting it's wasting it's mother's BMI it's varsity, it's total consumption of milk it's diarrhea episodes and sure enough they find that one of these is significant and then they say that they've shown that their project has nutritional outcomes it doesn't because if you don't choose one primary outcome and pre-specify it anything else you analyze is meaningless because you just go into what's called a multiple comparison problem can you pass the mic to Jenny everybody sitting here is a lot of scientists Jenny is working for an NGO is there a different perspective if you look at development projects I mean we've got two scientists now and a farmer give us the NGO perspective is there something different around the indicators yeah this is a pretty complicated topic actually and just to step back for a moment actually the very first session in this entire range was back in last June was on the success topic so if there's people out there interested in this I would refer them to that but to get to your question it is very complicated because often the donor where you're getting your money from determines what your project objectives are and they might also determine what indicators you're going to use and those indicators might not be the most effective in showing impact in what Celia is talking about and Robin's referring to so if you as a project want to add in indicators you have to have a very good reason because they cost more money so you are sometimes really limited by what's already been predetermined in both from donor as well as in project development stage so there needs to be a lot of feedback from what you're up what you previously learned what you're designing for and what you're looking for and understand why it's important why you're trying to co-opt something different we'll come back to that if anybody in the audience wants to say something about these indicators but I know that Celia has to leave us in a moment so before you go you reported on this study of the evidence literature review so one big question that came out of the audience why is there no evidence of the impact of AI test on nutrition the second question was is it due to poor research so what's your take on that I also alluded to this when I was talking I think what we find in the systematic literature review we did which is specifically look at projects that were doing interventions on providing livestock that are foods to children and then looking at the impact of that on nutritional outcomes out of a thousand and seven hundred we only managed to select 13 that made our inclusion and quality criteria so I think that says a lot there is a problem of quality of the studies and again goes back 15 13 sorry there was only eight individual studies because several papers were different outcomes for the same studies exactly but tell us why why is this so I think both Jenny and Villia referred to that a little bit we jumped into these studies with a really a time looking carefully whether an impact evaluation should look like and what is the most powerful way of detecting impact and effect and sometimes it's about choosing that one primary indicator primary outcome you are interested in and we try to perhaps I'm just trying to be too ambitious I wanted to look at many things and that compromises the power of the studies there are other things such as the money available for the project I mean this can be very expensive projects to run sometimes research studies cannot deal with that and then we might also say that the intervention is normally complicated when you even when you do feeding at school feeding programs at school you know what diet the children are having at home already how that food is being given to the children what is the compliance the coverage you manage to use those are very seems very difficult to monitor and capture so I think it's a combination of the interventions are complicated but also we need to you know take perhaps more seriously the impact evaluation part and you know try to spend quite good money into looking at one thing well I think it's a little bit it's a little bit part of that too I think sometimes the studies the research studies are not designed you know with sufficient power or with sufficient you know analytical methods that will help them demonstrate that impact I mean this room is full of people who have worked out more NGO's actually more than scientists perhaps is there another type of evidence that they have that you didn't look at well you will have to ask them I guess did you also look at the you referred to studies and literature and all that what about some of those studies actually were came from development projects so it's not always necessarily scientific studies set up to test hypotheses obviously I guess those that generate the type of evidence we were looking for are more likely to be going to be the physics studies you know the random mass control trials comparison groups and all that so that's much more likely to happen in the context of a research project that perhaps in the context of a development project but we included both we didn't necessarily exclude a development project if it was designed appropriately to measure impact we have a little time should we go back to the audience we have two questions one around indicators there's evidence does anybody in the room have an answer that Sylvia or Robin couldn't answer or Jenny anybody here share something about the indicators you use there's a good example over here we were talking earlier indicators they're running a development project right what sort of indicators are you using how did you come up with them not really answering your question but to your point Jenny about the indicators and outcomes frequently being demanded or restricted by the donor I think that's a huge problem it just makes me think having donors in this type of discussion is so important and influencing at that level because some of the indicators won't mention the donor or the initiative but with definitions that are four pages long even ensuring that everyone on a program team understands what we're measuring so what you're more or less saying is that these indicators are given to you you don't have much attitude to yourself to select indicators so being told we receive an RSA we submit a proposal we design a program but then we're also mandated to use certain indicators that don't necessarily align it's weird scientists have independence right so you guys can choose your indicators and see what the development projects are driven by the funder let's look at the evidence piece we heard about the scientific evidence and Sylvie said ask them so I'm looking for somebody here working for an NGO or a development project who's generating evidence why is there no evidence about nutrition and livestock does anybody have an answer everyone's looking away from me yes, Susan you're not an NGO it's a project tell us why is there no evidence no but I'm not a scientist either so it's a bit frustrating listening to all of this very important conversation looking for indicators looking for evidence when there must be some things we know right now and we knew 50 years ago and we knew 10 years ago that we just aren't putting in place and I don't hear that in the conversations today so instead of looking for more evidence and more indicators what about getting out the in-between stuff that is that is some evidence-based but also common common understanding and get that more into the world is that not part of researchers responsibility okay we'll come back to that, I'm walking in that direction before you answer Delia is there anybody in the audience here who says in my project we do collect evidence that isn't widely known and walking slowly yes I think there's a little bit of a disconnect in a donor funded project or which either NGOs and others are I guess it's the definition of what is evidence the standard set are of scientific studies they were the randomized controlled trial that's a very expensive process it's rarely unlikely that you have that funded so donors are demanding evidence there's evidence under their own criteria which are sort of preset indicators and these are oftentimes secondary data or a whole different level but it's not highly controlled or highly verified they put up verifications but it's a whole different standard it seems to me that there's a lot of work and a lot of knowledge maybe at that level but it doesn't meet the standard of a scientific study thank you Delia can you reply to some of those I think some of this is a moving target so many of the studies we reviewed were obviously done in the past and in the past standards of evidence were much lower people didn't have this focus on actual anthropometric nutritional outcomes necessarily or power calculations or primary outcomes so the demands for evidence are evolving very rapidly and I agree in a way with what people are saying we know these are super foods and are good so rather than spending so many million dollars on randomized controlled trials why not just divide that among 100,000 poor women and then they can go and feed bi-animal food for their kids it probably won't do them any harm but where it's coming from is this understanding that most of the high standards of evidence these sort of power calculations randomized controlled trials came originally from medicines and clinical medicine and that came about because people realized that when people were just going on what they judged was best what they saw around them what their anecdotal impressions were they often got things seriously wrong and they give examples how for decades there was a highly common condition called stomach ulcers many of you have heard of it and they had whole chunks of their stomach cut away and all sorts of other treatments and every surgeon who did it was convinced that he was doing good and then they found out it was caused by a bacteria and that the treatment was an antibiotic and again in development and I'm working especially in food safety and all around Africa and Asia we see monuments to good intentions gone wrong in these abattoirs and improved infrastructure and all these things that people thought were going to solve the problem and not only did they not solve the problem they often made it worse and I think this became more widely used and known donors, not all donors but a lot of donors started upping the game they wanted more and more better evidence they didn't want to invest money to actually see and they were surprised and we were surprised and shocked after having worked in livestock research to find that when people did the studies there was no evidence any of this had any benefit so that was a bit of a challenge so where it's coming from why I think it's good this emphasis and evidence and it's not going away but at the same time we shouldn't get so totally caught up with it that we don't do useful important things just because we don't have a total trial saying that we should ok thanks we're going to move on a little bit I want to get another question here so Paola you have the other mic so the question is how do we achieve behavior change within households to achieve better nutrition so we have the evidence we know what should happen how do we achieve that behavior change tell us you're both a vet and a nutritionist so what's your thoughts would your guidelines help us and I don't have the absolute the ultimate answer to that but what I would say is that well we've been discussing that before and for everything not animals or sports or and in low income countries everywhere like even you know people stop smoking when there is no it's quite clear that it's bad and there was lots of evidence a lot of money put and that that took ages that took years before that was properly integrated so I think the problem is when we believe that we do we go to the household we tell them ok so from now on you do that and then we are disappointed because they don't and I think that you have some good example where you say yes we've had some changes we've seen some changes why that happened you have some good practices there and a little bit of evidence perhaps I'm not I'm not so familiarized with that whole area of literature but my personal view is that it's something you build on slowly slowly so it has to be different channels it has to be common agreement and different interventions throughout time known and one off not on as I was saying before for example not just on women because then women may have their own barriers so we have to target different members of the household we have to target different members of the society like I don't know elderly religious leaders it has to be at many different levels and throughout time and I think that's how we get how we can get something we heard this morning quite a lot about DCC right so this isn't evidence what's the lowest level of evidence is they call an anecdote and anecdotes the plural of anecdotes is not data and you go all the way up to an RCT but one thing from a study we did in a part of Kenya which is very famous because there have been many many great runners have come from that area marathon runners and when we were doing focus group discussions about milk consumption one thing which came up was the men were saying we make sure our children drink milk because we want the next winner of the New York marathon so this was a way they changed their behavior because of something aspirational something they wanted for their children okay anybody else in the room have an answer on that it's a question that came from the room yes give us an example of something I think it much depends also on how you do the behavior change communication if it is done in a way that is really empowering communities then I think it has much better chance than just us coming with like you should drink milk and I think the example from the is great like the aspiration what is the vision of the people where do they want to go rather than looking at the problems we are used to make problems to use and see problems everywhere that we want to solve the vision of the people which is really empowering them and I really believe in participatory techniques and empowering people we have a project running in western Kenya also where we have let the community decide about what types of agricultural interventions they wanted to do and we combine that equally with nutrition education that was also designed by themselves like data, et cetera and we are currently analyzing the data so I can't say too much about it right now but one of the things that we saw is that my collaborator was telling me last week and he said like from the data what I am seeing is that the nutrition education as such seems to have higher impact than the agricultural interventions alone as well but I think a big deal of the success of that project has been the way communities have really taken how to say that they have developed their own needs and interventions et cetera it has really been empowering them very much I will take one over here and then come back to Jenny I think that effective behavior change communication finds its base in barrier analysis formative research into what the barriers are or understanding what the reasons the underlying drivers are in terms of why people make decisions in terms of the foods they consume and so a good behavior change process is looking at those social, economic influences that are affecting the decision making in any community and it is site specific it is culturally specific so they do require investment but it is very informative in terms of putting together the correct approach to the behavior change communication designing the messaging where to focus the messaging how to understand the leadership and the social dynamics in the community what is the best avenue for messaging to bring about the behavior change so as you say walking into a community and say we are going to do it this way now well no that won't happen without some sort of analysis of it so it sounds like there is probably quite a lot of examples of this these types of good stories right perhaps there are only anecdotes I don't know I just want to add that I agree with what she is saying that the issue of that delivery community education is very key and I'm borrowing this from an example from what I've seen in my community including my own mother she would go for this clinic normal clinic and she would come with a message and tell us the clinic is what you are told and she would give evidence that why do you think for example why should you pour water from boiling beans and when you pour them to the cows they put the water very fast because it reaches a little bit and because of that water for even when you are finding food you don't have to do that away I want to think that an example whereby Kenya has changed from a time when people were looking to kill which is the most convenient way in Kenya that is Kumawiki and in the way it was being sidelined when it was being enjoyed but because of the people being the extension is being very deliberate being very good in terms of demonstration in terms of impacting the message people should be gradual from eating original vegetables to eating kale and became like a household vegetable almost everywhere actually now the problem is taking people from eating kale to eating the indigenous vegetables again so what I am saying is that it is possible it is doable thank you okay so are these types of experiences documented and shared I mean are people aware of them how to do this there is not much evidence about some of the some practical things do you have a question from there one second I have to bring the mic then we are going to have to wrap this up very quickly I will bring you the mic and then this is a question or comment from the this is from Sarah great points from current speaker another consideration is that often messaging about child feeding has been targeted only to the mother some lessons from breastfeeding BCCs suggest that greater inclusion of fathers grandmothers and mother-in-laws can enhance maternal capacity for optimal child feeding practices we see Emanuel quite a tough question primary production might not be the best approach sorry we were having a side conversation okay a side conversation good I am going to come back we are going to have to wrap this up I want to bring one last question from the group there was a comment actually which said that for this agenda to go forward we need a convergence or a platform of some kind for nutritionists and livestock production systems people can talk to each other how do we do that I know but it sounds like they want something more did you mean perhaps so what are your thoughts on that I mean this is something in that line tell us a little bit how could this happen on a more structural basis do we turn rats into nutritionists like Paola well I think that the ball is shifting there are communities out there where agriculture is coming together there has been a series of agriculture for nutrition and health I think all that ideally I will talk a little bit more about that but it is changing shifting only 10 years ago nutrition sensitive wasn't even a term right the question here is really about livestock nutritionists well livestock is our agricultural so I think the first step is realizing that livestock is a part of agriculture you don't know that and then including livestock in the agricultural conversation after talking nutrition maybe this is actually given context there is something called the agriculture nutrition and health academy of which earlier members various other people here membership is free if you just google A&H academy online they do meetings every year the last one was in Ethiopia and you'll find lots of information and also a platform where agriculture nutrition is coming together and in the website there is regular posting of news updates of new documents coming up and projects there's one at the moment I mean the same point when Robin presented about her project talk about the challenges within the University of Sydney trying to get to different schools so I mean is it not a bit schizophrenic for you you're both a vet and a panel nutrition public health person but I wouldn't recommend it I'm on a typical I'm on a typical case because I decided to go in testing and then last minute I changed into veterinary and then this has been my way to go back to have both at the end so I'm not a good example I don't think it's necessary and I think despite yes there is challenges having to work with people who speak a different language than you in terms of discipline there is all sorts of challenges but that's the way forward I think Robin how did you cross those boundaries the main thing is that you actually have to have a common goal because it's just messy in that first time and then as information starts to come in people feel better but I do believe that the conversation that needs to be had is well beyond low or middle income countries I believe globally that ministries of health and ministries of agriculture need to work together agriculture is like a very important program I think that ministries of health that have less work so I think that's an example that needs to be to become a global paradigm shift absolutely absolutely and it needs to be as we face all the challenges in the world with the resources that go into producing food they need to be the best food targeted to the needs of the group for which that food is being produced okay we need to wrap up the very last comment yes because we're going to have to we're running out of time I would say at the program level for bringing it back to designing programs and projects having a person or a few people on the team actually serve as integration officers and really kind of can straddle this divide of agriculture and nutrition and see how they fit together and also bring in the wash piece and you don't have to be an expert you have to have a little bit of an understanding of them and know how those objectives might differ because I project teams really do struggle with integrating and end up in silos the team themselves have to understand how working together is going to help them achieve a bigger goal but they need guidance so do you have those integration officers in member lakes? I've been learning to be an integration officer oh you'll be becoming one okay one of my other colleagues is here and he works on a team on our grocery nutrition project in Ethiopia and I think he understands a lot of the other pieces too and they are maybe you can talk to Gizzo about it later offline maybe sorry to put you on the spot maybe you can share the terms of reference at some point with integration officers good guys we're going to have to call it a hold I think thank you very much for that thank you very much I'm going to hand over I think to Carmen Carmen has the job to tell us what happens next but also to reflect on the whole day and she has about 10 minutes she's being sidetracked thank you guys if you want to you can stay here if you like or you can go there wherever you feel comfortable so good good Carmen I'm going to give you the mic do you want to show something or is it just Dr. Ignatius Caius has a comment I would like to reflect on that integration issue and how we are segregating a veterinarian and a caches and nutritionist I am a veterinarian maybe from the old school but I spent a lot of time learning about animal nutrition and human nutrition I spent a lot of hours on public health which relates to meat and meat products water so when you say a vet is not a nutritionist then I'm not a veterinarian and I'm a gashore but I'm working from the animal field so when we dichotomize the science then we dichotomize the development project UNICEF wants to do health and nutrition somebody wants to do livestock and another wants to do water I think we are just messing up okay thank you everyone that's in the room in person I think today was a really good a lot of information was shared early in the morning for the webinar people on the webinar especially those who are joining much after the second half in the afternoon for us everything has been recorded from the morning session and those links will be shared out probably in the next week or two if you registered for the webinar or for the in person meeting well actually everyone who received an invitation to webinar or in person will receive an automatic link with all of the links about the copies of power point presentations that will all arrive in your inboxes give us around two to three weeks give us a little of the time to wrap up today summarize this I don't just going back to the early morning Jimmy Smith and John Ellenberger really emphasize the importance of animal source foods especially within the first 30 days they also raise important comments around the role of livestock both in nutrition and economically and how that plays and how that without investments into that people are unable to reach their full potential you need both the nutrition and the income coming from livestock to be able to reach your full potential as in my very quick summary of their conversation the next activity that we did was voting with our feet which I thought brought a lot of great conversation fun conversations although we were all compressed to one side of the room everyone felt very strongly that we were not a luxury item that went down to being a basic human right good nutrition is a basic human right but also that we shouldn't we shouldn't not address the issue of vulnerable households consuming animal source foods just because it's expensive or some people may consider a luxury everyone felt very strongly that there needed to be investment in this and then why and how people keep livestock is very complex so getting at the question of increasing production of animal source foods will result in improved household nutrition and every I think the majority consensus was that livestock keeping is very complex issue we have the various pathways for livestock to household nutrition and that households are juggling a lot of different issues and that they are making decisions on a day to day moment to moment basis in these vulnerable households moving on what we had for our introduction to nutrition to get everyone on the same page just the importance of animal source foods in human development eggs, milk, the perfect food Jenny's new super foods of eggs and milk I think they're going to what spirulina's out and goji berries are out it's now eggs and milk okay and does livestock keeping directly link improvement to nutrition getting into Delia's discussion major reviews major reviews on agriculture nutrition sounds not overall evidence for nutrition outcomes brought us into the afternoon's discussion there's not a lot of evidence out there and really why is there not a lot of evidence I don't know if we really answer that well the role of socioeconomic factors that's really the role of livestock and household is very context specific and the importance of looking at the context to know how to design a program or to work with people to improve that link between livestock and household nutrition was very important and you cannot just take a cookie cutter approach although the connection between production of eggs and milk is a little bit closer for improving nutrition directly you need to consider the context closely when you strive to strengthen strengthen a livestock pathway livestock to improve nutrition pathway constantly asking what are the socioeconomic factors factors but as well as what are some of the contaminations and safety issues that we need to factor in I really need glasses okay thank you I will get D for those at CRS I still need glasses you know I think there was a lot of common information between the different speakers really getting at this yes this is a very complex issue that you really need to look at the details of what's the situation that's happening on the ground but that the potential return on investment investing in livestock systems for improved household household nutrition is great the opportunity is great the risk of whether contamination and food safety issues those those are risks yes but they do not outweigh the benefits especially from birth nutrition human development perspective I think the strong consensus granted we are a livestock people in the room and of course we want to promote livestock but that we that really we want to see more investment in this area pretty close at time at any last key points that we think I have a few compelling statements that were said at the end oh I actually really enjoyed Robin's comments with the billions with the billions being spent on producing food we should ensure that that investment is going into the very best in nutritious food and with animal source food with Jenny Superfood but these are important again important investments that we should be making unless there's any other comments any everyone's clear as far as next up let me see if anything's coming into the webinar no okay so with that I were right on time one minute over I'm okay wrapping up if everyone's feel oh the raffle yes post quiz have a microphone okay so there is in your packet there is something there the quiz it will look similar if you took the quiz online it will look very similar maybe the same if you could just take a few minutes please to take our quiz for us and then we have one last raffle which we might do in three minutes to entice you to take your quiz we're oh it's the food card and you had to have submitted a food card to be in the raffle and I'm going to so I'm going to let Peter wrap up well I'm not going to wrap up I'm going to say thank you everybody for a nice day I'm going to hand over to Delia who was heavily involved in this from the early side from the very beginning just to close the meeting on behalf of Jimmy Smith our director general who was here this morning to welcome us thank you all for coming it's been a great debate discussion as has been said it's not a one-off it's part of a process and it's part of an ongoing community of practice so I hope to be in contact and we will be sending out information materials so you will certainly be hearing from us in the near future and we will also give you an alert as the different reports which you had mentioned today come online Delia good so raffle results who's pulling it out me oh my gosh so which this is the food this is the dish right and so what's okay so one of these it's called termites Hannah Hannah's here wow I don't know I just pulled one called termites it has Hannah's name on it so Hannah wins she wins some termites okay anything else you have to do guys from your side are you going to reward people for filling in the quiz as they leave is that the idea thank you right can you show us those chickens oh my god is that like is that like a stress chicken or something or is it a toy it looks like we missed the whole thing okay he's just talking about it it looked like they were wrapping up yes isn't that what you're hearing so I think that wraps the whole thing up as soon as you finish your forms you're free to go we're going to send you lots of follow up unless we've been there time they really have an awful way but she had just started talking about the animal Susan yeah yeah yeah we can do that yeah let's start with the follow up