I'm happy to be here today, and I'm happy that you all got up so early this morning, given that most people probably started having dinner at about 10 p.m. last night. What a wonderful town, you know, such a beautiful location here in Bilbao, and throughout the whole Basque country in Spain, it's really good to be here. Today I want to talk about the state of open source and the state of the Linux Foundation. What I can tell you about the Linux Foundation, I'll kind of get that part over first, things are going amazingly well. Our biggest challenge is hiring smart people to come in and help facilitate all of the collective development that happens across the now thousands of open source projects that we steward. And, you know, at the Linux Foundation, we have a phrase that everybody talks about all the time, sort of our cultural phrase, humble, helpful, hopeful. The humility has to come from the fact that every day in our communities, roughly 800,000 developers work on all the different projects that are housed at the Foundation. And we depend on facilitating that work for the outcomes and impact of the organization and of these open source projects. And almost all of those people are not Linux Foundation employees. So if you don't have humility, you really can't work to influence outcomes because, you know, if ego gets in the way, you can't sort of lead through influence. That's something important to us. Being helpful is just, hey, you know, the rock stars of open source or the developers and technology is just that create this great code and standards, and we're just here to facilitate. So, you know, what can we do to be helpful, to create good developer experiences, maybe to help with documentation, to bring new people into the community, and so forth. But the final part, the hopeful part, is what I think is most important. Because you know, in the open source community, we tend to like a good crisis, right?  What are we going to do about AI and open source and, you know, the sky is kind of always falling, falling and, you know, oh, you're never going to be able to do that. This open source thing is not going to work. If you're not hopeful, you know, it's just really hard to kind of stick with it and have the grit and determination to get these amazing outcomes. And so today I want to talk about some things that, you know, we've all been talking about in the open source community where we're a little worried that something terrible is happening. You know, I think one of these things are around licensing, one of these things are around AI, and the first one I want to talk about is around licensing. How many people here have heard about the recent license change of Terraform? There you go. See, this is my crab. You're all my peeps. How many people here know this sort of niche open source licensing conversation? So HashiCorp, a commercial company, recently changed the license of a very popular open source project, Terraform, from an open source license, the MPL-2, to a non-open source license, essentially a business license. And there's been a lot of chatter in the community that, oh my goodness, the sky is falling. And I would like to offer a counterpoint to this, which is I don't really think the sky is falling because HashiCorp changed their license to a business license. You know, I think the community and industry are just getting more mature, and you're going to see today how actually the sky isn't falling, it's just getting sunnier. You know, HashiCorp, it's their business decision to change the license for the copyright that they own, and they're a reasonable company. I think some people might argue with that, given this change. But you know, at the end of the day, it is essentially their business decision. And when I saw all this chatter in my news feeds and from our staff, like, oh my gosh, there's this huge shift from open to these business licenses out there, we've got to do something, I kind of looked into it. And I asked the team, you know, find me every single example that you can find of a commercial company that owned the copyright in a popular open source project that changed it from an open source license to a commercial license. And this was the list they came up with. What do we got here, nine? Total. Now for all of you open source wonks out there, I truly challenge you to add to this list, please. But what this is telling us is out of the thousands of critical open source projects out there, out of the hundreds of thousands of long tail projects out there that people use every day, is this really that big of a thing? And the answer is probably not so much. And the even better answer is that the community and the license agreements in open source provide a good way to adapt to this change. But I do think there's one thing that you should all know as to why does this seem to be happening recently? You know, a lot of these are 2021, 2023, why are we all of a sudden kind of seeing this thing? The likely answer is about five, six years ago, seven years ago, there was a lot of private equity and venture investing in open source. Venture capitalists looked for popular open source projects and went to the maintainer. Let's start a company off of this. And a lot of capital was raised and people went to market. Using open source is a way to go to market. It's a great way to go to market, right? We all know that, right? More usage begets more interest and that enables you to go and sell commercial products in conjunction with the open source project and that's a good go to market strategy. Well, now most of those companies are maturing. They might have hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue. The company has grown significantly. They're maybe looking at going public and they're starting to look at their business and try and make decisions about, hey, was that open source thing good or not on an ongoing basis for us? And that's kind of it. And it's their prerogative to do so. I think from the Linux Foundation's perspective, it's a further evolution of how users of open source software and co-developers of open source software need to better educate themselves on the risk of a century-long copyright regime from a single company that gives them the ability to change a license later on. And I think Dirk Rale, a European researcher, did a good job of kind of describing this, right? You know, if you look in the upper corner there, this sort of vendor-owned open source, you have open license, but you don't really have open governance, right? And that allows for this sort of switch to a business license later because you don't have this neutral open governance. What I think we're seeing is a good lesson for all of us that this upper right corner, the idea of both open governance and an open source license is really the sweet spot that enables commercial organizations to invest in the code base because they know it's not going to be switched, it's not going to be owned by a single entity, and that in particular, if it's housed at a neutral organization, like the Linux Foundation or the many open source foundations that are out there, we're not the only game in town, but if it's in the nonprofit foundation, that's really the sweet spot. They're not going to change the license, you know you can trust it, you know you can co-invest, and that's what gets the best outcomes. And so that sweet spot, once HashiCorp changed their license, almost immediately flung into action via a well-known method in open source, which is the right to fork. And that right to fork coincided with that open governance, and that is what we want to talk to you all about today. We have an announcement for a new project called Open Tofu. This is... That's right. This is a drop-in replacement for Terraform. It's open source. It is neutrally housed at the Linux Foundation and hits that sweet spot of open source and open governance. And here to tell you more about this is an Open Tofu core contributor, Sebastian Sadle. Come on out, Sebastian. All right, exciting times. Hi, my name is Sebastian Sadle. I'm one of the core contributors on the Open Tofu project, and I'll talk a little bit about that. First of all, it's just so hard to believe that all of this started just five weeks ago. It feels like it's been an eternity. Just five weeks ago, a bait and switch or rug pull was made, and so that got the community into action. And in the space of five weeks, we've had hundreds and hundreds of developers pledge to contribute to the project, 150-plus companies. We've got 41,000 stars on GitHub between the manifesto that really resonated with folks, as well as the fork itself we just opened just a week and a half ago. And it's been trending on GitHub as the between number one and number three project for weeks now. It's one of the fastest-growing open source projects in the cloud space. And so we're incredibly excited about the momentum and getting the community going on the project. And it's not just individuals and developers like myself that are excited about this. It's also enterprises. And so enterprises make large investments into open source, and we're continuing to see that. So here to talk a little bit more about their usage of open source and their excitement for open tofu is David Berhal. Please welcome him. So David Berhal is the head of software engineering at Alliance. And could you introduce yourself a little bit? I'm heading software engineering in Alliance Indonesia. For those of you that don't know, Alliance is an insurance multinational company. We are the third-largest insurance in the world, according to Forbes. And in particular in Indonesia, we are the number one in the market in life and health insurance business. And you were telling me backstage that you guys use a lot of open source. Can you tell us a little bit about how important open source is to the company? Yeah. So Alliance's purpose is we secure your future. When it comes to taking ideas, the decisions, we always ask ourselves, how is this going to secure our customers' future? Open source tends to be most of the times the right answer to that question. That's why many of our business critical applications run entirely on open source. And you were telling me as well that you guys are huge Terraform users, right? You've got to deploy it across many applications, many business units, et cetera. So Terraform and infrastructure is coded in general. It's super important to you guys. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah. When it comes to securing the future of our customers, IT operations is business critical. It's critical for them. Doing infrastructure as code provides us with resilience and agility that is much needed, particularly for us in Indonesia, living in the ring of fire, you can imagine. IT operations is critical for securing our customers. And we had invested millions of euros in developing Terraform code. So when there was this change of license, we were wondering, is this still the right way to secure the future of our customers? But now with the announcement of Open Tofu, we are so happy to join and to pivot to Open Tofu. It's great to have you in the community. Thank you so much. Let's give him... Thank you. Quick show of hands. Who here has heard of or uses ExpressVPN? It's amazing to see. Here to talk a little bit more about Open Tofu as well, let's welcome Carlos Clemente. He's a staff platform engineer at ExpressVPN. And he'll talk a little bit more about some of the work they do. Just give him a warm welcome. Hello, everyone. Thank you. So yeah, I'm Carlos Clemente. I work in ExpressVPN as a platform engineer. And in ExpressVPN, we value our customers' privacy and their right to... Well, to be... Whatever they want... To private, right? Sorry. So we use Open Source a lot to meet that goal. And we're very excited to be here now with this new excitement on Open TF. We use Terraform a lot. As a platform engineer, we try to reduce complexity using Terraform, not just for infrastructure, but for any kind of cloud resource we managed. And we believe that Open Tofu is a game change in the next step on the IAC ecosystem. So yeah, we believe that Open Tofu is going to bring power. It's going to empower not only individuals, but also enterprises. And yeah, apart from that, ExpressVPN also believes a lot on Open Source. That's why we open our core. We call it Lightware Core. Everybody can use it. It's a different protocol. And with that in mind, we believe that we can contribute a lot, not just use Open TF, but also contribute with maybe ideas. Maybe we can also contribute some code. But yeah, game on. Awesome. Thank you so much. Yeah, we're looking forward to the ideas and the contributions and all of that. Thank you. So the Linux Foundation is an amazing place for any software project. They provided Open Tofu with an amazing governance framework to make sure that across organizations, across sometimes competing interests that everyone can come together and make a great project. And so they provided just a fantastic framework for that. There's the Technical Steering Committee, if you're not familiar with that, that's kind of like a Supreme Court for Technical Arguments for any disagreements on the vision or the direction for the project. The Linux Foundation has also provided us with other things for security and legal governance. And it's just an amazing place for hosting and governing a project as important and critical as this one. There's a number of things that... I'm a developer. I'm sure you guys are developers too. So the next big thing here is an official release that will come very soon. But right now the repository is open. And so if that's a first raise, just getting a release out, that's a drop-in replacement. The next phase is starting to pull via an RFC process ideas from the community and features improvements and start drawing upon the brains of folks all over the world to make a fantastic project. And all the while maintaining that backwards compatibility to make sure that you can use and migrate to OpenTofu at your own speed. And with that said, a little call to action here. There's a talk tomorrow at 3 p.m. Please do not miss it. There's going to be two developers that will answer whatever questions you have as well as provide a little bit more information on the vision for the project, how we govern it in more detail, etc. And there's a QR code as well. If you use that, it'll take you to the Slack community where we're all talking about the project and what to do, how to self-organize and all of that. So please consider joining that community as well. Thank you very much. Seeing amazing outcomes from this project and we talked about that sweet spot of open governance and open code. And last year, Meta contributed PyTorch to the Linux Foundation as well. So TensorFlow and PyTorch were somewhat similar in that they were open source and they're both great open source projects. Google is an incredibly good steward of open source, but in this case, TensorFlow is owned and managed and controlled by Google. Meta decided to contribute to the Linux Foundation, their technology. And just in one year, we've already seen what happens when you hit that sweet spot of open source and open governance. I expect we'll see the same thing from the open-toe-foo project. So what we've seen is that what we thought was this big, terrible trend in open source around license changes has a pretty straightforward reaction to it and the sky is not necessarily falling. So the next big thing that I've been hearing a lot about is what are we going to do about open source and AI? What is the role of open source and large language models? You know, should we even have open source large language models? Everything is terrible. And what I can tell you is large language models, things like all of the great technology we're seeing out there around generative AI are largely built on open source components. And while the sky is not falling, I think we're seeing more and more open code, I do think there are some things that we should all think about around large language models and we should resist some calls that we've been seeing out there to regulate or restrict open source large language models. Recently, we've heard from different people around the world, largely folks that already have a lot of capital, a lot of GPUs and good foundation models that we need to take a six month pause on all this stuff until we figure it out. We're even hearing calls for folks who are saying, hey, this large language model technology, this advanced AI technology is so powerful that in 20 years in the hands of individual actors, people could do terrible things, create bio weapons, create massive cyber attacks and so forth. And what I'm telling you folks today is that kind of fear and that kind of concern that the availability of open source large language models would create some terrible outcome simply isn't true. That open source always creates sunshine and that fear has a counterbalance around hope because it's not just bad things people do with large language models, it's good things too. Like discovering advanced drugs, helping to manufacturing to become more efficient, using large language models to create more environmentally friendly building and construction. Like for every action there can be a reaction and we're already seeing open source immediately start to tackle some of these things people are concerned about when it comes to AI because there are things we should legitimately be concerned about when it comes to large language models, job displacement, bias in these models, hallucinations, security implications, these are real concerns. But those concerns aren't going to be addressed well by simply trying to ban open source large language models. What's more likely is that the open source community and you're going to hear a little more about this later is going to create tools that root out bias that can answer some of these ethical complaints that genuine concerns and the open source community can also work with regulators to address those things. You see we've seen this movie before around trying to ban open source in certain areas of technology and we know how it ends and that was cryptography in the 1990s. How many people here remember when we were, the US government treated cryptography as a munition and the concern was, if we have open source cryptography it's going to be terrible, we need to lock this down, we need to have security through obscurity and Phil Zimmerman, an open source developer who published some cryptography code actually was arrested and a series of court battles went underway and the way it actually ended is Phil was exonerated. Open source was seen in the United States as free speech and what we learned was if we try to lock everything down people who don't care about ethics are just going to go work on cryptography anyway. Open source is not something as a digital instantly distributable good something that can be easily contained and that it's better to have this stuff in the open and to work collectively for our collective good than to try and control it and lock it down. Let's not repeat that mistake. Open source and AI allows for better examination of how these large language models work it allows for better collaboration and knowledge sharing about how we can work technologically to solve some of these big challenges around it and democratization of access to these tools largely gets better positive outcomes and the concerns around the negative outcomes and the same holds for open data. Data and code are essential in building large language models and we need to make sure that we have both of those things open this is why the Linux Foundation created our community data license this is a common open source style license for data that allows people to easily share large data sets for the creations of LLFs. Wow we got some CDLA fans in the audience I love it. You're my people. I love it. But I do want to ask y'all to help me out with one challenge when it comes to generative AI in large language models so I'm going to give especially the developers in the room some homework today. This is sort of the left hand side of the software supply chain where you know developers create code they build and then package that code and then it goes to an end user this is sort of the writing of that code side and my question to developers is really simple does any of this stuff work how good is it can we use this stuff to make even more code right there's all this concern around code completion tools and that'll put developers out of jobs and it'll be terrible well I can tell you that that's very unlikely to happen these tools are really going to be a force multiplier for the creative minds we see in the open source community because just code alone is not the same as context like writing is not the same as thinking and anybody who's worked in the open source community for a long time knows that it's the creative minds that make for great software not just generative AI style source code development so I'm asking all of you today to go check out some of these things our code documentation tools that are out there good let us know do these code completion tools work effectively are there better ways that we can do testing and debugging and fuzzing of code and let us know the Linux foundation is dedicated to providing the best developer experience possible for our communities and we really want to know how these work and we understand that there are concerns about these tools risk management around intellectual property that's already being addressed by features like similar code suppression using S-bombs in order to understand the provenance of where source code and the license that it derived from came from and so on and so forth so each generation of these LLMs around software development are getting better the tools are addressing concerns around intellectual property regulators are working on making this more clear in terms of what's a derivative work and so forth but the simple thing I'd like y'all to help me with is does this stuff work and how could we apply it to our open source communities in a way that would create better outcomes and if we do that I think that the world of open source isn't going to be catastrophic but it's actually going to be pretty amazing now as we talk about AI there's one other big trend happening in the world of large language models and that is the shift from sort of general purpose compute to accelerated computing you know it's ironic how many people here love video games play video games it's thanks to all of you gamers that we have large language models in the first place right? Nvidia back in the 90s was this you know GPU accelerator for games and it's you know they their business was essentially made off of gaming and this was in an era where general purpose computing just Intel was the king of general purpose computing and accelerated computing was a big big niche well today that's kind of flipped because of large language models accelerated GPUs are you know there's a two year backlog to get this stuff and it's becoming one of the main streams of how computing is done and what this is telling us is that we need more standards that can meet the challenges of a world where instead of general purpose hardware we have this accelerated hardware and that's why today we're announcing the UXL foundation this is a multi architecture multi vendor software ecosystem for accelerated computing it's a set of standards that unify different heterogeneous compute ecosystems around a set of open standards technically we announced this yesterday so I stand corrected on that this is something that's going to be really impactful it is a derivative of the one API initiative which focuses on a set of development specifications for open source projects and I would like to introduce the folks from the UXL foundation Rod Burns, Sanjeev and Vivek who are going to talk about this new initiative so why don't you come on out okay thanks Jim it's great to be here and we're really excited to announce this unifies acceleration foundation or UXL foundation for short I'm also joined here by a couple of the founding members for this foundation which is great Jim talked a little bit about the landscape of computing is changing the use of accelerators is increasing rapidly one of the challenges that developers have is that whilst they can write software for these accelerators there's no unified way to actually do that so what we're doing is we're getting together these organizations from across the industry to define an open standards an open source way to develop software for all accelerators and so together we want to build the largest open ecosystem for accelerator computing and we're not starting from a you know not starting from a clean slate a blank slate you know we have a solid foundation to build on Jim mentioned the one API specification the one API projects that are open source and being contributed so we're starting from a really good place I'm joined with me here with Sanjeev and Vivek you're going to say a few words about their involvement and why they're here so Sanjeev thank you Rod you know we're frequently told by our customers that it's really really hard to write software for accelerators without building a dependence on closed source proprietary technology right so one of the things the charter of UXL is really to build a fully open source fully open spec set of software that can run anywhere on any accelerator that can be ported to anywhere and so on so I'm Sanjeev from Intel proudly representing the team that built one API Intel is contributing with the one API software stack to UXL and we cannot wait to see what UXL will build with it and can't wait for all of you to join us so thank you thanks Sanjeev and we're also joined by Vivek from Fujitsu good morning I'm Vivek here so as Sanjeev mentioned for us with our long history in HPC we believe UXL is going to be critical for us going forward as you know the amount of cost it takes as he mentioned on the software for accelerator I mean it is just mind boggling and that impedes the progress so we are absolutely very proud to be part of this and I think it's a very key initiative for us thanks thanks Vivek and as the chairperson for the Steering Committee for this new foundation you know I encourage you to come and give your comments contributions and even join us as members you can find us on the website it's uxlfoundation.org take a look and please get involved in some of the special interest groups thanks thank you


Live from Washington D.C., it's Cube Conversations with John Furrier. Hello everyone, welcome to our special on the ground presentations. The Cube coverage in Washington D.C. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of Silicon End. Coast of the Cube, we are here getting all the stories on what's happening with the innovation in entrepreneurship in our societal nonprofits and our innovation in government. We're here at Peter Pricks who's the One Relief App founder, OneReliefapp.com. One Relief is your venture. You're part of the PeaceTech Accelerator. We're here at the United States Peace Institute in D.C. Tell us about your opportunity. Great pleasure, yes. My name is Peter, CEO and founder of One Relief, the One Relief app. What we do is we let people like you and me make quick donations, micro donations to disaster relief aid. So after emergency has struck, Harry came in Rio last year in September approaching the Caribbean islands. We all knew about it. We all saw those pictures on TV and we all felt empathy and wanted to help and wanted to give, but there's no easy way. So what we do with the One Relief app is we let people like you and me easily with a click of a button, make quick donations that support certified disaster relief agencies on the ground.  Exactly. We're a startup here at the PeaceTech Accelerator. Great. Well, I'm really bullish on it. I think crowdsourcing has opened up the democratization of giving, which has been phenomenal, but there's some scale issues. Now there's 10 zillion apps. Certainly GoFundMe, we know about those things. They're kind of peer to peer. You know, a friend has to socialize it up, but a lot of folks are wondering, hey, if I donate to that Haiti situation or hurricane, where does the money go? We heard in Puerto Rico, half the stuff didn't even get there. This is a big fear, cognitive dissonance from the giver. You guys solve that problem? Yes, absolutely. When it comes to giving, at the moment you can choose between giving to the big players, the big charities that we don't trust, as we know. Or you can go on a platform like GoFundMe and there's actually 12,000 fundraisers for Hurricane Maria and you don't know who to trust either. So what we do at One Relief is we provide a marketplace, a platform, that is certifying charities who confirm people on the ground. And when you make a donation through the platform, you actually get an update, you get a status notification, help has been embarked, help has arrived in the community, you get visuals, you get video of what's happening on the ground, and you get feedback at the end of a disaster of what has actually been achieved with the money. So you're closing the loop from the giver, from the journey of the money, to the destination. Exactly, from the... And seeing the impact of it. Absolutely, from the second you press the donate button and you donate and you share a fundraiser, you can see how the money is getting to the country, how the money is being used, what it's being used for, and what the progress of that is providing you information on the impact of your donation and closing the loop and encouraging you to next time another disaster happens to donate again. Crazy reliability. You're essentially verifying the endpoints of where the cash goes. Absolutely. Hi, it's Akon. How far along are you guys? Sounds like a great idea. I think it's an awesome idea. Getting a little dashboard and seeing the impact, make people feel good and know their money's going to work. How do you get this off the ground? You're in the accelerator, what's the status? Absolutely, we're about three weeks away from the launch of the platform. It will be launched on March 1st. So we're in the final push of getting the app off the ground. We have partners, we have contracts signed with, for example, Action Against Hunger, where agencies that have country offices that have been working in the countries that are very often struck by crises for many, many years. So it's not that their money goes to a small charity that we have never heard of and are not able to get any accountability information, but it's going to certified agencies that have people on the ground. And they're excited by this, it sounds like. Oh, they are more than excited. It's changing the entire industry. It's rather than the rich people signing big checks that's people like you and me making small donations that have an impact of changing the world. And what the One Relief app is really special and good at, it's the speed at what has happened. So a disaster strikes within hours, the fund raises online on social media and people can donate. And one of the great things about us covering GovCloud we've observed that bringing a modern stack like cloud, you can actually radically transform these industries that have technology in some cases so antiquated, they can't even, they don't even know what's running on. Oh, no, absolutely. So the platform itself is running on AWS and we use serverless cloud technology that allows us to really scale the platform with a thousand people donate or a million people donate at the same time. It's running on a serverless cloud facility. So you're providing critical infrastructure services for donations, big or small? Absolutely, and it's 100% scalable which wasn't able a few years ago. How is the Accelerator helping you piece tech? Yeah, a really interesting question in multiple ways both through mentoring support that we get through the partners that bring incredible support and help us really in getting the platform off the ground. AWS helps us with setting it up on Lambda. That's wonderful. We have C5 who gives us some really interesting support in how we can operate this as a nonprofit with a tech startup mechanism. We have partners like the PeaceTech Lab that helps us to really operate as a nonprofit. We've been covering AI for social good, Intel among other partners, really kind of look at this not just as a philanthropy opportunity, real change. But what's interesting to us as we've reported on SiliconANGLE is the societal entrepreneurship market is booming in DC. Can you comment about what it's like here? I mean, is that right? I mean, you saw Silicon Valley where we live, you got a lot of the alpha tech guys out there. But here it's like nonprofits. Old ways of doing things are now kind of becoming more entrepreneurial because of cloud. What's your reaction to that? No, absolutely. I think Washington DC is the best place for us to be. It's a mix of government, nonprofits, foundations that come in. There's a lot of actually a lot of young startups coming up, impact startups. There's lots of co-working spaces. And we can really feel that this is the most conducive environment for us as a startup to grow and to thrive, getting support from partners that we need. Societal entrepreneurship as a category, I mean, I don't even know if that's the name of it. What do you call it? It's booming. Can you share any anecdotes of it? Is it booming? Is it just emerging? What's your thoughts? Societal entrepreneurship. Yes, so what the WonderLeaf platform really does, it allows everyone to give. It is enabling every citizen in the world to make a quick donation, an amount that everyone of us can afford. Final question, what's your core challenges as you get through the accelerator look to go to market? Is it the partnerships? Is it the tech? What are your core challenges? I think it's really clearly communicating what how WonderLeaf is different, how it is not like all the other platforms out there, how we are the one-stop shop and a marketplace that is connecting people who want to do good with receiving charities on the ground. And how do you compare and contrast to say these other crowdsourcing and crowdfunding platforms? Yes, on the one hand, there is the big players, the big charities that we don't trust that we want to give directly to because we don't know what happens with the money and there's peer-to-peer fundraising that we don't trust either because they're tiny and we don't know who's setting up those fundraisers. We're right in between. We're a platform that is connecting the donor with a certified charity. How about emerging technologies like blockchain which has been very popular in supply chain like things because you're basically an end-to-end supply chain of money moving to the endpoint, the relief or whatever. Could you use a blockchain? No, are you thinking about that? Absolutely, we actually have an innovation lab that is only purely looking at blockchain from different angles. One of them is for us to accept crypto donations and to be the first platform on the market is accepting micro donations in cryptocurrency. And secondly, we're looking at blockchain technology and running a hyperlature project at the moment to see how we can accelerate the speed at what, how long it takes to get the donation from when a person makes it into the receiving bank account on the ground in country X, Y, Z in the world. A whole new infrastructure wave is coming. You're seeing it decentralized applications and hardened end-to-end apps like you guys. Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, congratulations, Peter. Thanks for joining me here. This is theCUBE conversation on the ground here in Washington DC where emerging markets and nonprofits and just ventures for good are now the new entrepreneurship craze in Washington DC. It's the center of the action and with cloud and modern software and blockchain and things of that nature can make it happen. Thanks for watching.


Alright, hello Julie thanks so much for joining me how are you doing today. I'm fine Chris and what a pleasure it is to finally get to meet you. Yeah, absolutely so funny story for people who you know don't know but anyways, I just randomly stumbled across your work like a few weeks ago so you had a book coming out like hey, I want to read that book and we connected and you sent me an early copy and everything like that. So, your book is feminism for women. You have been doing this and writing and talking about this for years now. So this isn't you know the first thing you've written so what, what kind of inspired this particular book and for those who have yet to read it what's, what's the main focus. It's feminism for women because in the past decade or so we've increasingly been moving towards what passes for feminism as something that tends to benefit privileged so called progressive men. And it's kind of, we're in an Orwellian situation I know that that term is overused. It's appropriate right now that everything that's actually bad for women has been repackaged and sold back to us as empowering and choice and free choice and liberating.  And it's it's twin sister stripping and lap dancing is something that's really great for exercise I mean actually I was watching a film recently, where one of the main characters that there were two guys talking about whether or not the sex wars were still raging And one of the characters said and I'm sure your listeners can work out which one it is by a quick Google.  Yeah. So, you know, I think it was Ryan Gosling. Anyway, the point is that things such as even religious fundamentalism. So women who are Muslim born, who are now secularists who campaign against sharia law campaign against the abuse, and women who started out to women and girls who live in all fundamentalist religious communities, you know, have found that for some liberal white men on the left. They seem to be apologists for Islamic fundamentalism all of a sudden, because of course our enemies are our friends.  And so a long answer to your short question. I wanted to write this book because at the moment, feminism seems to have forgotten that it should be centering women and girls globally, and not actually be prioritizing everything but the struggle for emancipation and liberation of women and girls. So, so let me ask you that so you know the subtitle of the book is the real route to liberation so when you when you talk about liberation of women like what does that look like to you. Well feminism is an extremely optimistic movement. We have to be because it's we've got a big job at our hands, you know we have to convince half of the planet to relinquish their power and to treat us as equals. But we're also optimistic because we know fine well that baby boys are not born programmed to harm or abuse and oppress us and nor are baby girls born to be victims and to be subservient. So therefore, there are many men who are raised well with, you know, good parents and role models and peers that don't encourage them to take out their shit on women or to sexually exploit us and also to encourage men to actually get in touch with their feelings because it's not just the angry ones but the, you know, the whole gamut. And so we know that there are, there are so many good men but there's also a sizable, and I mean sizable minority of those that do harm and abuse women directly. And I'm afraid a majority that are bystanders that stand around thinking well it's not my problem well it is your problem then it is and that's why I work with men all over the world who are doing anti sexist. So, so what I suppose the book means what I mean by liberation is that the one thing that unites women and girls everywhere. And I would argue it's the only thing that unites women and girls everywhere is the fear and reality of male violence.  Might it happen again. All of that.  Without that, if you see women in Norway and other Scandinavian countries for example, or women at the top of the tree earning a million dollars on a really good salary, but complaining that she earns 10% less than her male counterpart. Usually you know white US women who talk about the glass ceiling and do what we call lean in feminism that is more concerned with the need to see the 5% elite or whatever. So if we if we think about what those women have in common, there really isn't anything else except for the curtailment of our freedoms and citizenship, the effect on our mental and physical health of male violence. And if you actually say to women, women who are for example, street cleaners in Mumbai, or the woman that we've just described in the merchant bank who's earning a fortune. She will have a similar experience, psychically, I suppose, to her sister in a very different kind of setting. And so what I want the book to do is to forge solidarity between women in order that we can meet together to fight male violence, because there is a need to do so.  Yeah, no very well put and and yeah I love the book and you cover so many different topics and, and in a little bit I do want to talk about the sex work thing because I don't even know if I mentioned this to you. But I live in Las Vegas, Nevada. Right. So I've grown up here so I have some questions that I know a lot of people, and actually since reading your book, I've talked with a lot of people who I know here in Vegas. And, and even though they work in the industry in the industry their responsive, their responses have been very interesting but we'll touch on that in a minute like a lot of the book is talking about like like you mentioned the, the like unifying around this this issue with like male violence. So, first thing, I'll say this publicly on my podcast.      So, before I get to myself, one of the main reasons I've been reading so many books on feminism, and all the different views and everything is because I'm the father of a 12 year old son. My son, he's great, he's sweet. He's nice. I'm blown away at how many people compliment how good he is but I want to make sure he stays on that path. So, my long way of asking you, like when it comes to male ally ship or whatever like, as a father to this young boy like, because like you said they're not born this way. What are what are some things that as fathers, teaching our sons that we can do to help. You know what I mean. I'm really glad that you've asked me this question, Chris, because often men you're doing the opposite of this. Often men will get sentimental and say I have a daughter. And I don't want her to go through this and I want to say to them, okay, two things.   And I do believe in redemption so let's get that out of the way. But think about that. And why is it just because it's your property that you are now concerned about it. What you're saying is that actually the hard work of raising boys needs to be really. It needs to be a political act. It needs to be something that isn't just done on your own for father to son, but to actually look around your, your son's world and see how much peer pressure there is on him.  And so I think that boys need to really have the opportunity to hang out with other boys that aren't being bullied into dick pics to girls that aren't being pressured to download that porn that actually can develop into whole human beings without feeling shy or worried about asking about sex.   It's great. Right. It's because we love sex that we hate pornography, that we think that the sex trade is built on the, you know, in humanity of its victims, that men become schooled into almost sociopathy by being trained into a kind of one sided sexual contact scenario where it doesn't matter that this person that you're having sex with for your own pleasure doesn't respond or doesn't want to be there. And so I think, to be honest, especially for 12 year old boys, I think it all pretty much comes down to sex education and to positive roles with not just role models who are adults because we know we probably remember being 12 we didn't want adults telling us what to do. We needed other 12 year olds around us and clearly that includes girls, girls who've been raised by strong parents, by pro feminist men and seek out these positive friendships for the kids and not just looking at it as the whole weight of this is on your shoulder because there must be so many other parents that are worried about their kids. Yeah, no, and absolutely at that point you made about daughters like I think back when when my my son's mom and we were still together and she got pregnant like I was like oh my god if I have this daughter you know but I started thinking about these things but so I would love your your opinion on this like I recently talked with another author named Melinda Winnemoyer and she has a book called how to raise kids who aren't assholes. It's a great book, but anyways, so here's what I want your opinion.  So anyways, my question for you is, do you think that's enough right if I said, if I try to set this foundation for this young man of be kind, be respectful, treat people, you know, the golden rule treat people you want to be treated and all these other things do you think like that's enough and we we have been having those awkward sex conversations since he's 12, you know, stuff like that so I know there's a little bit more but do you think that's a good foundation or does there need to be more when it comes to teaching our young men. Yes and no, of course it's of course it's a good foundation of course that's the starting point without that what do you have it's a it's a basic human value isn't it that I think has become eroded and and replaced with something which is a kind of uber capitalistic neoliberal dog eat dog, as long as I don't care you know, and of course kids also get affected by that. But it's not enough in in one sense and this isn't your fault, it's just your responsibility and problem. That's the on reassuring thing. Consent consent is great when we talk about toys and when we talk about sitting in somebody else's seat that's just gone to the restroom and just those basic good manners but consent I would love to do away with the word consent when it comes to sex. If you ask me, you know we meet in Starbucks you asked me to to loan you $10 I might consent to doing that, but we understand that the word consent is grudging it's kind of a bit grudging so I might consent to going out to dinner at the restaurant I didn't want to go to but my partner did right okay I'll consent to that. We can't talk about sex in this way it has to be. It has to be enthusiastic participation, whether or not and clearly I'm not talking about a 12 year old here but I'm talking about sex.  And many men choose not to use that and actually work very hard at shedding those assumptions and that sense of entitlement that men are raised to have. But really consent. I don't want to consent to sex. I want to really want it. So, so that's a conversation that how would a 12 year old get to grips with that well, I suppose, you know, looking at the kind of programs that are tackling this there's one really, really excellent example I'm going to give you, which is culture reframed an NGO that's based.  Now Gail Dines set up culture reframed after a long time working in academia and looking at the power of imagery and how the porn trade makes its money and how that money then translates into pushing technology driving technology and why it's ended up on the cell phones of our 10 year as well as, as well as being normalized to the point of where we have Pimp and Hobals we have Pimp of the Year awards, you know we've have I mean last time I was in, in Nevada, it was to attend the, the, the porn awards, the annual I didn't win anything though Chris, but clearly I was, I was reporting on it. And you know that that's the normalization of porn. Now what Gail Dines and her crew at Culture Reframed does is that she has the conversations with parents. So the parents are the ones or their guardians whoever they are but the parents are the ones that are going to have to talk to their kids about this. My God, I don't have kids but there are plenty of young people in my life. I wouldn't know where to start. It's a tricky conversation.  We haven't gone too far in stigmatizing what they are exploring, but that we put the stigma and we problematize the pornography and the adults that want to exploit them.  And it's a tricky thing to do but from what I'm seeing from what Gail's done she's having these conversations with parents of preteens and she's having them with young teens. And I think it's really done something great for these parents who didn't know how the hell to do it. Yeah, no definitely check into that and, and yeah like I so here's what I've been doing lately so my son's 12 starting to get a little sex education in school, we watch a lot of like shows and TV together and stuff, mainly like Marvel and things but he's a, you know, he's been watching other stuff with us like not too grown up and stuff that he might be interested in and everything. So something I've been trying to do since he's 12 he'll be 13 in a few months is like I've always been like the type where I'll like grab the remote and fast forward like any type of sex scene you know whatever.  And just so you know I'm 36, and it's still weird for me when I sit in a movie with my mom. And that's on the screen I'm like it's just a parent kid thing you know whatever, but I don't want. I don't want to give him the wrong message like oh this is bad this is something you know whatever, but, but on the topic of porn something I've noticed. And here's the only times I still fast forward is there and we live in a very sexualized society. There's sometimes where it's too much I'm like that scene was way too long didn't add anything to the story you know what I mean just because and those are the ones where I'm like all right, that's enough, you know, whatever. And I've actually heard I've actually heard more of my adult friends, you know, even sexual people who are like it's in this show it's like too much right. But here's so here's something and like I we might have to do a part to because I think I could talk to you about this forever.  I've been talking a lot with my friends here in Vegas I have friends who have stripped I've had friends who do like before only fans popped out they were doing like photography and and stuff like that you know all this stuff right so yes I I've looked at the research and I understand like, you know porn right like it's it's bad for like young men.   All this but anyways, here's the question I have you talk about it in the book. I've read other stuff on it but I'm trying to understand so since you're here. I want to understand so I'm very you know liberal progressive and part of what I think about feminism is women making their own choice right yeah like one of the greatest things to happen was where we started to normalize women going out into the workforce, getting a job doing whatever they want right. And one of the issues is, you know, men have seen ownership in the female body, you know.   And during the pandemic, especially we've seen this explosion of people going on only fans right. So there's this other argument that we're infantilizing women by saying, No, this is bad so that's that's where I'm at I've talked with a lot of people and I'm and I see more people actually agree with you and I'm. It's hard for me to reconcile those two things so you're the expert lay it on me because I want to understand.  It's a spectrum I would argue, no one experiences the same, but I've spent decades talking to women who've, who've left prostitution who've escaped the sex trade. There have been actually trafficked cross borders women in high class prostitution women in on the street in all kind of scenarios and, you know, this is something that I've been looking at for a long time but in particular the last couple of years I wrote a book The Pimping of prostitution on the global sex trade and I looked at the arguments in detail that are used by the pro prostitution activists the pro sex work lobby. And those that we see on our TV screens and on, you know, here on our radios and on podcasts and not representative of the vast vast majority of prostituted women. Now that doesn't mean to say that their experiences aren't valid and that they're theirs of course they are. And I'm not in the business of telling women, they don't have the right to choose what to do with their own bodies. I'm not in the business of telling men that if they pay for sex with a woman who clearly doesn't want sex with him because otherwise why would the cash be involved. He is an abuser he is on the spectrum of a sexual violator. He needs to understand that that woman doesn't want to be there. This is a two way street that he is doing things to her, probably or possibly because his girlfriend doesn't want him to do that so why is there another woman who he can impose that upon. Why is it that men think, I mean the johns and all men clearly because johns are in a minority, different, you know, kind of percentages wherever we go in different countries but johns are in a minority. They, I've interviewed a lot of johns in a lot of different settings and they seem to have this idea that if they pay for sexual services they can get what they want they can ask what they want. Many of them tell me that they pay the woman to leave afterwards and not speak to him. I mean that's one of the kind of very common jokes that go around the kind of john community you know on sites like Pontonette. And what it does is it gives men a sense that women are there for them when they want to their convenience but the effect it has on women is profound. Now if you have a woman who's paying, for example, for her higher education, she might be at the University of Nevada doing her doctoral thesis on sex work. I would put in a few shifts at one of Dennis Hoff's brothels in order to do her research, interview the women, and also turn a few tricks for a bit of extra cash. Well, I would call her a tourist. I would say that she is dipping in and out of the sex trade in a way that most women don't have the opportunity to do. I suppose she may be making a choice and she's making a choice in very different circumstances to the women who have no other choice now. I suppose if we get into semantics here, the way that we measure whether somebody is doing something of their free choice is that there are alternatives. So if I say to you I'm a journalist Chris and this is something I actively and happily chose.  I had worked in all kinds of other settings. Clearly I haven't been coerced into journalism. And also if I decide to leave journalism, I don't need an exit strategy with psychological support in order to get out. Right. So, so when it when I hear the word choice, I think, who has the choice to these women have a choice to do something else.  They choose the shift in McDonald's. They do. And, and, and why, why else, you know, how else can we explain it, except for to say that the Johns have the most choice in the prostitution contract exchange, and the women have the least choice. So, yeah, that's so that's kind of what I've been hearing actually talk to the friend who's been in sex work for a while and like I you know I've been trying to educate myself and have conversations and, you know, I'm just always curious that's why I like reading all these books and stuff. And yeah, like, from my perspective, it was just like her she's just like, I want to do this is what I'm doing you know what I mean but she's, you know, not only did I learn a bit more about her and you know similar what you're saying but all the other women she's talked to who are, you know, doing this and that lack of choice. So I guess my main question is because I try to play out conversations and scenarios in my head, right. And I think we also have to include you know there are there are women who help on only fans, just pictures there's no male and female interaction, you know, all that so with that, and playing out some conversations. Are there in your experience or in your opinion are there any women that are just like this is 1000% my choice. I am not experiencing psychological harm, you know what I mean, because when I play out that conversation it almost feels like, like if it was me in that scenario if I if I put myself in that scenario, I'd be like wait, is Julie gaslighting me am I you know what I mean. So, so help me understand that perspective. Of course that that woman exists, and I have yet to meet her, but that's okay, because I have yet to meet people with all variety of experiences. I met a man in London where I live in the UK. I met a man who was black British and of African Caribbean descent, who was in a conversation in a local political group about racism, and about hate crime and about legislation. And he was getting very angry and he said listen, I'm a black man in my 30s and I have never experienced racism from white people growing up, or as an adult. How the hell do we need to introduce this legislation. And another person a collar said to him. Good for you. I'm delighted to hear that you've had good experiences and that this hasn't happened to you.  Okay, we legislate for the more typical example of, you know how somebody's life is going to be affected by racism. It's the only way I can think to describe it so I haven't met the woman who is the I suppose that the cliched phrase is the happy hooker.     It's not as you think it is, and I'll get out as soon as I can, when I've made enough money and it's been great. I earn $250 an hour as opposed to $15, cleaning somebody's house. Okay, that's great. But when I speak to women who've got out of the sex trade further down the line. Every single one of them has told me how she held herself together during that time in prostitution. Every single one has told me how she had to be in a space where she split almost from her consciousness, different person, and just hung on in there.   So what I would say is instead of actually looking at the woman and her choices and her good experiences in prostitution, which it becomes a smoke screen for the industry it becomes a smoke screen for what we really should be talking about men's choices. Men's abuse men's experiences. Why a punters johns, as you call them in North America I get it but we call them punters there are many words for them some of which I'm not going to repeat on your. But why is it these men are on these forums and I've spent a lot of time looking at those forums, I'm talking to the men direct in detail. I'm talking about these are white guys I'm talking about here. They're talking about hey, you know I want an Asian babe because they do what you want they swallow your arm. You know I want an African woman because she never wears out she can take it, you know, all night all day. You know I want a Chinese woman because in all these racialized stereotypes that are rooted in a kind of racist colonialist misogyny that are so insidious, and that gives men permission to look at women as though they're in some kind of, you know, burger joint or sweet shop you know candy store, choosing what they want who they want.  And then tell themselves that the women have orgasms and that they enjoy the sex. When you interview the women, and you tell them what the johns are saying, they laugh. Even the women I've interviewed in Nevada brothels that are actually selling sex as I speak to them. I mean not actually you know, you know, but are actually in those brothels, you know and I've, and I look. I look carefully to what women tell me and I never tell them that they are giving me a false response I never question them when they say I've never been raped I love my work I just listen to what the women say. And I don't know if you recalled a bit in my book where I spoke about going to the Nevada brothels to do research. I went to a woman there. And clearly she'd been briefed by Dennis half who, thankfully is now dead terrible terrible man monster of a man. And he had said yeah, Julie you can interview the girls. There are always girls never women.  And he said, I've got some girls for you and he is one and let's call her Annie. And there was pornography of Annie on her own bedroom wall because these women are prostituted in one room they live in one room. They sit in one room for months on end that can't go out without permission from an assistant pimp, because they don't want the women to go into town, in case they pick up an STI from consensual sex with men. And then you know the Johns might get infected which is bad for business. The women have the women have weekly blood tests as though they're some kind of livestock to see if they're riddled with disease as one of the assistant pimps told me but the men do not. And of course nobody enforces condom use of the men it's all down to the women. I'm talking to Annie, and thinking about how she must feel having pornography of herself played out on the wall in her bedroom. And she tells me how much she loves her work and what a great brothel it is and how she loves the other girls. They all get on really well. The Johns are all lovely. And as I'm preparing to leave. Gosh your room doesn't have any personal effects you know it has no photographs it has no kind of, you know I don't know about you Chris but in my room there's kind of like you know jeans over the chair there's another one, there's you know my laptop and books on the floor. I thought it looks very sterile. And she kind of took a minute and looked at me and then she opened the drawer of her bedside table and took out a framed photograph as a beautiful little girl and showed it to me whilst holding on to it and said, This is my daughter. I don't want to keep this photograph hidden, because I don't want those dirty bastards with their spermy hands touching her. And that told me everything that I kind of had feared for that woman that it's a veneer that she has to put on that act that she understands are harmful to vulnerable females like her daughter. And that this is something she's doing either for survival or because no other choices are open to her.  Now it makes more sense especially with the black man like I'm like I'm half black and I've been looking at all these, you know racial conversations and stuff like that. But if I'm understanding you correctly, it's, it's kind of like, you know, just because a minority doesn't experience this, the majority, right, and with what you just said that's something I've been thinking about a lot lately, like my background I'm a big psychology nerd and everything like that. And like you said, like, you can't tell somebody what their inner experience is. But the thing is like what I'm always asking myself like my girlfriend, we've been having these conversations. She'll send me people on tiktok is actually a good story. So she'll send me people on tiktok you know and people who work on only fans and stuff.  You know, it's women with sons lie to themselves all the time, because we have to keep saying.  But she's one of those people where I think it would be hard to have a conversation that she'd say this is all my choice right. My girlfriend was like remember what this girl said I'm like okay, and then she has me switch to the next, the next tick talk from this same same exact woman, and she's celebrating seven months clean from heroin right. So, so I'm a recovering drug addict I got sober in 2012, and immediately I'm like, I'm like I can't say that anything I did during my drug addiction was my choice because everything, everything revolved around my addiction and that's something I've seen you in Las Vegas to being somebody who's been so who's sober, I've worked in treatment, I know how many women have had to sell their body to feed their addiction to so. So yeah a lot of this, a lot of this is, it's clicking now Julie but I don't, I don't have much time with you and I have to touch on this. Yeah, so hopefully we can condense it but anyways, your book was endorsed by JK Rowling.  Yeah, and I read it and I was like, this isn't that bad. You know, I'm not you know obviously I'm not a trans person so you know but I looked at I'm like this seems nuanced and when I read your book and you talk about, you know, the the trans issues and stuff. You, I do feel like the words like transphobic get thrown around like all willy nilly and stuff. But anyways, um, yeah I watch it on Twitter you get in some debates about some of these things and everything. So what I'm trying to understand, like I read Helen Joyce's new book I read Abigail Shryer's new book. I, I, as a parent I happen to think that Abigail Shryer's book was fantastic. You know, like I'm like hey, we need to have these conversations you know what I mean, like if there was a spike in adolescent suicide rates we wouldn't just be like whoa whoa whoa don't talk about that. So, but anyways, the question the last question I have for you help me understand like, how, how does the trans conversation what I keep hearing from people like yourself and Helen Joyce is it's it affects women's rights. That's where I don't understand because I think of it like my whole thing is, like, you know I'm an atheist right but if you're religious I don't care as long as you're not hurting anybody. So with the trans conversation I'm like, if you're doing your thing, as long as you're not hurting anybody so can you help me understand. How does this affect women's rights like what, what are women losing in this trans conversation, and since we're wrapping this up, is there like some kind of middle ground to compromise where because like I said I don't think you're transphobic. So, so what where's that middle ground. So, hopefully we can, we can cover that. Let's do it. I mean how cool is it though to get a cover endorsement from jk Rowling I mean that's pretty cool. Pretty cool. She's got a whole music part from a book. I'm Martin and I've rattled over who's one of my heroes. You know the, the trans issue. Okay, to take your second question first. Yes, of course we can resolve this. And the reason why I know this is, so I'm 59 years old, I came out as a lesbian when I was 15.  We had nowhere else to go. Right, we didn't go to straight clubs and straight people didn't come to us.  They were so butch that could have kickstarted their own vibrators you know they were like really that there was some serious camp going on there as well. And what was really fantastic about that community. And it was mainly working class I'm from a very working class background in the northeast of England as you look on my book. And so it was very working class rough and ready as we say. Amongst us were other people on the margins of society. So that meant that there were trans people who referred to themselves as transsexual at the time, or, or transvestites it was, it was not politicized. And there are pretense that this was about changing. You know that that somehow gender was an innate characteristic it was perfectly well understood that there were of course some men that wish to live as women, and the certain procedures needed to be gone through before that was going to be viable. But there were also lots of men who just wanted to dress and be drag queens and who wanted to dress up at weekends and experiment with all that stuff. And you know what we were great friends, they looked after the lesbians they looked after us young women because we were vulnerable to the fascist groups and the other thugs that came into the clubs to do a bit of queer bashing. And gay men often weren't that interested some of them were but some of them really didn't protect us. And so we forged alliances with the loveliest of gender non conforming people because that's what we were to every lesbian and every feminist on the planet, refused to conform to gender rules by the very, you know, belief system we have if we're feminists and saying we want to shake off the sex hysteria types, or by being a lesbian and saying we don't want to have sex or babies with men. So, so that was all great. And to fast forward. And no one, no one gave a damn if we saw trans people in our toilets because they were just there putting on their makeup spraying their hair and asking if somebody would help them apply their false eyelashes right that's what we all did together. Then fast forward to now, all was fine trans people needed legal recognition, because as my transgender friend Claudia says you transitioned in the 1980s. And who has since regretted it but lives as a woman. And, you know, was going through airports. She didn't. She couldn't have Mr. Her original name on a passport when Claudia looks the way she does and lives as a woman. So that's just one example of why trans people needed to be protected in law and have their sex markers changed on on legal documents. The problem happened when our idiotic Tory government decided that the first thing that they would task Minister for women with because it was free and it was easy and it would get lots of collapse was to say, let's introduce self identification for trans people.  And let's just have a free for all. Now, even that wouldn't be so difficult and dangerous. Were it simply that men because it usually is men and certainly wasn't the time that these proposed changes came through. We're declaring themselves as women, I don't care who declares themselves as what right do what do what you like call yourself what you like dress how you want please I'm a feminist, I endorse that. The problem came when in order to ensure that men who wish to live legally as women.  Not because all men are rapists but because enough men do sexual use in order for us to have built these services from scratch. Then we couldn't possibly allow that to happen. We offered to help trans women build their own shelters build their own rape crisis centers, because we've done it from scratch and with no funding. So we said to our trans sisters will help you do it. But what we can't do is say that you can legally just come into hours because all kinds of opportunistic men will do that. We're in Vancouver where just blokes just ordinary men, Jessica, even stuff. And they just sat there with beers and penises and, you know, just not even making an effort to pretend that they live as women. And it's what happens is it chases all the vulnerable women out of that service. What we said is we'll help you build these spaces because we've done it ourselves and we've got loads of expertise and will support you doing it because trans women do need protection from male violence. They don't need protection from feminists. They need protection from male violence notice. And so the final thing I'll say about it is what made it terribly dangerous and toxic and why those of us that campaign to end male violence had to get involved is because in order for those men who are identifying as women, there are autistic men that just want to assault women and just really hate us for having our own spaces, which clearly most trans women don't but there are enough men that do as I say that will jump on that bandwagon. In order to access those spaces and it not be inconvenient for them having to answer loads of questions. The trans activists, as opposed to trans people who just want to get on with their lives the trans activists including the organization Stonewall in the UK campaign to end our sex based rights that we fought for decades for 100 years. The campaign to overturn sex exemptions with gender expression, which meant we would lose every single bit and I do not exaggerate of legislation that protects us as women and girls from male violence we would lose that and gender expression would not support Trump it.  Some of them even support Trump they're not feminists they're not on our side and we don't work with them, but why feminists on the left who campaign to end male violence are so angry about self identification and the way that the conversation is going, which is any man can identify as a woman and we asked no questions in our bathrooms or in our prisons is abhorrent there have been women who've been raped by convicted sex offenders who are male bodied, who take on the identity of a woman and they're asked no further questions. So we can't have it. So we stand by trans people. We stand against the abuse marginalization and human rights violations of trans people, but we cannot lose our sex based rights as women in order to appease a tiny minority for whom there should be a third way. And not that all that makes so much more sense and I and I get it and, and I do believe you that you think like there's this way to work together and I wish I wish we had more time Julie we might have to do a part two sometimes because I now that my wheels are turning especially with like shelters for women, because I know some women who run shelter for women and my wheels are turning and I've worked.  And yeah I love the book I hope everybody gets that I learned a lot I learned even more from this conversation so I'm going to link the book down below. It's going to be released in more countries, but for the work you're doing and you've been talking a lot and doing a lot of stuff. I follow you on Twitter is that the best place or where can people keep up with your work and what you're doing. Twitter. I do have a website which I barely ever look at but it's there. I think it's the Julie Bindle.com not because I think I'm the Julie Bindle but because the other domain was already taken. That's a great and my website is on there I'd love to hear from from people I'd love to talk to you again Chris. And by the way, complete and utter congratulations for getting through your hellish addiction situation and you know that that was the pretty tough so good for you. Yeah, no, we're both a couple of fighters and that's just what we do. Thank you so much Julie and yeah hopefully we'll be talking again soon. Love to Chris.


Hi everyone, Joe for jazzy's casebreaks.com coming out to a 2021 Panini Chronicles football six box half case. Pick your team number four. A lot of great stuff in your all card ship. Excuse me, I have a lozenge in my mouth, if I sound a little mumbley, that's why. Thanks everyone for getting together on a Thursday night hanging out with me and filling up some breaks. Appreciate it. Adam ended up with last spot mojo before we pulled the teams for the uh for the filler. Thanks everyone who filled up the filler. Congrats again to the people who won teams. Box one. Good luck. And Adam looking for Anthony Schwartz. I feel like we haven't seen a lot of big Browns hits yet, so maybe they're due. I think Francisco was here earlier. He was like lamenting, I haven't seen any Dallas Cowboys in. They've got to be due too. All right, there's Zach Wilson and sleeve all those up.  Jameen Davis to 99. Trey Lance. And your hit is Pat Friarman. Nice. Silhouettes Jersey and autograph 90 out of 99. That'll be for Gary and the Steelers.  This one's a pretty solid player. Uh tight end for the Steelers. There's Tom Brady for Austin. It's to 49. Austin won that team. Buccaneers in the filler. Got a Trevor Lawrence and Buffalo. 11 out of 50. Gabriel Davis. This is also for Gary. Gary starting his uh his football collection. And there's Trevor Lawrence. Justin Fields. And we've got Mike Evans, piece of his jersey. 127 out of 199. And that is for Austin and the Buccaneers. All these Justin Fields will go to Mark, Mark Miller and the Bears. All these Zach Wilson's will go to Mike and the Jets. All the Trey Lance is going to go to Alifonzo. And all of these uh Trevor Lawrence is going to Jesse and the Jags. Terrace Marshall to 199. Trevor Lawrence.  Be for the Jaguars of course. I'm at for the Bears. 72 out of 199. Khalil Herbert. And we've got a Zach Wilson back here too. Another one for Mike. Next one remember I've marked all these four so we know they're they're all from the same case. Oh Jilo hasn't had it hasn't had enough, huh? Zach Wilson and NU Endos. I think we're good Jilo. That's not even an NU Endo Adam. That's just blatant, isn't it? I'm gonna try to keep this family show as much as possible. Aaron Rogers, 41 out of 199. At Relic going to Patrick and the Packers. Trevor Lawrence. Justin Fields to 25. Nice low number there. Mark Miller, Bears. Rune for Justin Fields. Hopefully does well this season for the Bears. Harry Zach Wilson down Jilo. Trey Lance. Jalen Waddle to 399. And we got Devin McCordy. 11 out of 50. Ascension autograph for Han and the Pat Riots. Patriots. Mack Jones for the Patriots. And Jamar Chase. Jamar Chase 2 out of 75. Die cut autograph. I think these are the first of these that I've seen. Bengals. Jeremy H with the Cincinnati Bengals. Nice. Jay Hove. All right there's another Zach Wilson. There is Pat Fiermouth numbered card again. Trey Lance. And Mack Jones. Box three. Two boxes in. A lot of boxes to go. What up Carl? Carl's wondering if anybody's into some NT baseball tonight. I don't think I've seen a person buy a spot at NT in some time. But that doesn't mean a late night rally can't happen. I've seen it happen before. Jaspy's case breaks.com lays a jump if you're into it. Micah Hyde. Scary. Buffalo. Buffalo Gold. It was Justin Fields to Mack Jones. Nice Mack Jones for the Patriots. More Justin Fields for Mark Miller and the Bears. Kyle Pitts to 199. Other Jamar Chase. And Kenneth Gainwell Purple Parallel to 199. Also got a score Justin Fields for the Bears. And we've got an autograph. That's a lion. That's a Monras Saint Brown. Nice one for Detroit. Nestor and the Lions. Zach Wilson. TJ Hawkinson to 399. Now Davis Mills Relay. Gary. 274 out of 399. They're starting quarterback. Does DeMassouage play? I'm not familiar with that player. All right so we are halfway through this half case break. Next three. Next half. Good luck. All right we've got a Tyreek Hill. Three-color Jersey. Five out of 25. And a still Chiefs edition. That's going to go to David. Kansas City. Justin Fields. And a Justin Fields Purple Parallel 22 out of 199. That's for Mark Miller and a Dub Bears. Rashad Bateman to 399. T-Lock Flux. And a Kellan Mon. Penini Black. Orange Parallel. And autograph. Minnesota. Joe. And Driesen with the Vikings. 18 out of 75. I wonder if he gets an opportunity at some point this season. Zach Wilson. Luminance. Zach Wilson again. And a Rondale Moore. 9 out of 10. Autograph. Score Otto for Patrick Garrison. Arizona Football Cardinals. Nice. I feel like he could be a good, I don't know, good flex spot receiver this year. No Christian Kirk taking targets away from him. DeAndre Hopkins got popped for PEDs. So he'll be gone for a handful of games. The ball's got to go somewhere, right? Rondale Moore could be that guy. I might, if he's available in my fantasy league, I might take a flyer on him. Do I think the Panthers can make it to the playoffs? Let's see. Let's bring up the Panthers depth chart. Let's see what their team looks like right now. Well, I think just like any other team though, right off the bat, I can tell you that it's comes down to quarterback play. I feel like Carolina is a decent team. Listen, if Christian McCaffrey can give you, I mean, can't really say healthy, but if he can give you a full season, right? And if they get some decent quarterback play, is the NFC South, aside from Tampa Bay, is that really scaring anybody? Right? So maybe there's a pathway to the playoffs for the Carolina Panthers. Because they got the Buccaneers. All right, fine. They're going to get theirs. But you know, Saints, I think are without, James Winston might still be coming back from the injury. You know, Falcons are rebuilding. Carolina still managed five wins last year. Yeah. DJ Moore, Robbie Anderson, pretty decent pass catchers. I'm assuming Baker Mayfield's going to win the job if he's healthy. Right? They think they got a decent defense that can keep them in games. Good special teams. Yeah, I think there's a pathway there. Easton, what's going on? How are you? AJ Dillon, Relic for the Packers. Patrick. Patrick T with the Pack 156 out of 199. Davis Mills again. Patrick Sertain, the second to 75. Zach Wilson, Trey Lantz, or Saquon. It'd be interesting to see how he looks this season to 99. Justin Fields, hopefully he'll play well. And Terrace Marshall, Jr. Speaking of the Panthers, 47 out of 75. You know, he could be a good Y receiver three. Jerry with the Panthers. And Trey Lantz. Jalen Waddle, that's to 199 for Miami. That's going to go to Angel, the Mac Jones, going to Han, Zach Wilson, Justin Fields, another Pat Friarmooth. Mooth. There you go. Gary who's trying a little football. He's usually a baseball guy. Ends up with some Pat Friarmooth. So you've got someone you're going to root for this fall. All right, next box. Yeah, NT is not cheap, Carl. Easton's hoping Brady can win another Super Bowl before he goes out. He's got enough, doesn't he? I feel like Brady's got enough. He's got plenty. Well, at least the Browns don't cost as much as some of the other big teams. Are you talking about the baseball, Carl? Oh yeah, you should take that deal then. There's Terrace Marshall, Jr. 46 out of 75. That's for Carolina, Jerry. Wormack Jones, Trey Lantz, Davis Mills, a lot of great stuff here. All these quarterback cards might look into getting graded. You know, depending on how some of those just do some do a little bit of research, see how those sell on the secondary market. I think some designs will sell better than others. Worth the research.  Trevor Lawrence, Justin Fields, Tom Brady, and Travis Etienne, Jr. 65 out of 99.  That's where Jesse and the Jaguars. Pile pits to 99. And there's a Miles Garrett, 152 out of 199. Adam with the Browns. Last fought Mojo, still getting a little something. Cleveland, this is for you. Other Zach Wilson, a red Zach Wilson, 13 out of 99. Trevor Lawrence, Adam Thielen to 199. Kenneth Gainwell, and Bookit, Ian Book. And there you go, gang. That was a six box, half case break of 2021 of Panini Chronicles Football Picker Team number four. Not a bad break at all. Thanks, everyone, for filling this up. And everyone who's part of this break right here are also going to be part of the break credit promo that's coming up in the next video. Check it out, jaskyscasebreaks.com. Thanks. Bye-bye.