Okay. Welcome to the Monday, March 21st, 2022 meeting of the Montalier Design and Review Committee. We'll have members and staff introduce themselves. Eric Galberton. Benjamin Cheney. Member. Meredith Crandall. Staff. Steven Everett. Member. Martha Smursky. Member. We'll let Meredith review the remote meeting procedures. Okay. So I am going to be sharing my screen. And this is more for people watching via ORCA for the share screen aspect. But there's some other information as well. So for anyone that's viewing this meeting via ORCA media, you can participate in tonight's development review board, sorry, design review committee meeting, using this Zoom link here. Alternatively, you can call in at this phone number and plug in this meeting ID number. And then you'll be able to ask questions and hear what's going on. If you're having problems accessing the meeting, please email me at this email address. For those attending via Zoom, turning on your video is optional. For everyone attending, please keep your microphone on mute when you're not speaking. This will reduce background noise. And a note that the Zoom chat function should really only be used for troubleshooting or logistics questions. And you have a question or comment about a specific item on the agenda or some other substantive item to say, please raise your hand. You can do that physically or if you're on video or use the raise hand button on your toolbar via Zoom. And then state your name once you're unmuted and then you can go ahead after the chair recognizes you. If we have members of the public commenters who are unable to attend the meeting. And I'll find that out via email, then we'll have to continue to the meeting to a time and place certain. I'll now hand this back over to the chair. Has everyone had a chance to look at the agenda and do I hear approval of the agenda? I'll move that. I will second. All in favor of the agenda, speak your names. And Stephen agenda is approved. Unless anybody has anything else to add, we can go to the first applicant. Is anyone here for 75 Main Street yet? Okay, we'll move that down the list in case somebody can show up for that one. We'll go on to the second application for 66 Main Street over Lake Park LLC. Great American Enterprises. And I think we have somebody here representing. Introduce yourselves. My name is Abby Jenny. And I'm recusing myself as member of the DRC to help present this application for. The outdoor seating for Charlie O's as a project that I will be involved in both design and build. Okay.  Okay. Abby, could you speak more directly right into the microphone? I can. I'm so sorry. No worries. That's that's much better. Thank you. Great. No problem. So what I have here is the front of the veranda that faces Main Street. That was from last year. And the only changes we would make is I'm hoping that this foliage along the fence line. I'm hoping that this will either be a prettier sort of fence. With real plants at some point, but the lighting is going to be the same. And I'm going to have Ben describe what they're building because it's hard to describe. And I think you've done it a couple of times. Okay. So I'm going to go ahead and make some structures out there that would both generate some shade and a little bit of protection from the, the, a little bit of light rain. And make something that was a little bit more interesting and attractive than what was out there. And so we sort of, we meaning flywheel myself and my business partners came up with this plan, which is a sort of individual kind of pavilion type structures that are both like integrated seating and tables that are temporary that are able to be kind of pulled away or moved around. They're not necessarily fixed to the ground. But what they are is a relatively simple structure except for the, they have a varied height and thickness in the sort of partition walls and the seats and tables that are on there and they sort of are these more artistic sculptural objects that are also seating. There's a little bit of privacy screen to them but you can really kind of see through them and walk through them. And they would then be sort of put in a little bit of an asymmetrical pattern on to that under that empty lot. That's, that's kind of what they are. I'm so just going to step in really quick for DRC members so you have what's in your packet. And then for people who are here in council chambers. Ben and Abby sent a couple of additional drawings that have a little bit more about the new fencing proposed that is going to be up on the screen that they can scroll through. And if you want to look at the old pictures with the sort of the fake greenery fence that he was talking about I can show those as well. And thank you, Meredith for bringing that up the in this phase we were this is a style that we're proposing to do fencing for this project but not in this phase. So, opening this summer would be back to the sort of other fencing option that Abby was beginning to describe at the beginning of this. And if things go really well financially and make sense, then maybe we would get to being able to put in this fencing but it seemed worthwhile to include it in this application so that we didn't have to come back the fencing fencing along the alley. Yes. Yeah, so here's up there right there greenery stuff that was there last year is what would be started with the show that it doesn't show very well you can just come and peek at my laptop if you want. My hope is to get approval for this as a temporary with the greenery stuff like it was last year, but then approval for more permanently, the wooden fencing, so it would the wood with the wooden fencing be up. Part of the year and then come down in the winter but then it would be a, you get to keep putting it up or would the wooden fencing stay. I think the idea is the wooden fencing would stay. For the winter as well. Wooden fencing would go along Main Street. It would go it would be a two different elevations it would go along the alleyway at about six feet and then it would go along Main Street along the sidewalk at about four feet. And it would not have an opening in it per staffing request from Charlie owes it would just kind of be this fence that paralleled the sidewalk. Other people get in it. Yeah, the DLC had advised me earlier. When we started doing this that one entrance is great, because we can screen people coming into the enclosure. You know, and see them leaving as well, which is kind of what we do. So people would go into the bar and then go around the backside like they did like the end of last summer when you switched it. Yeah. So here's a. This is a view that shows the sale additional screening and here's the fence along Main Street, which is lower. And then this along the alley sorry my mouse doesn't really like me has the little bar aspect to it. And so that fence is a little higher. So there are those kind of wouldn't I'm going to call them bollards. I'm not quite certain what there really are, but there wouldn't things sticking out of the ground. Now that we were going to utilize to be able to create the drink rail off of as well as that fencing and I guess we're showing two versions one with the shade sale cloth and one without it. Not exactly certain how that could work out it's very similar to the one that is the sale cloth at over the three penny Parklet. And I guess asking for permission is whether that would be an acceptable thing to include or not include based on the nature of how sort of organic and irregular these things are. It's very hard to model specifically what how that sale cloth may or may not work out. So, it's a little bit of a sale cost to be removed in the winter. Correct. Yes. And what about the benches little because he was or whatever. I would say on the property they might get moved to be a little tighter for snow. But the idea is that they would they would remain on the on the property on the lot. I don't quite understand the seating or the tables inside. Yeah. So if you could because it just goes all different angles and different height. You got it. Yeah. It does. Yeah. Yeah. There are there are both benches and tables and they're kind of at a standard 18 inch bench height and a maybe a 36 inch table height inside and closer to a 42 inch height. If you're standing outside of the thing. But it makes it so that it's kind of mixes people together and or creates some sort of like irregular spaces for people to be in but also creates a little architecture people to sit in and be on. And so the idea is that those those are wooden slabs of probably Hemlock that would be could be pulled in or pulled out to be able to kind of give it more or less space but not in a fairly it's a fairly the idea is to make something that is actually relatively easy to construct but has a really unique look to it. Steel frame right steel frame. Yep. I assume that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it would be something that would be the idea is it fits on a trailer so you one would be able to pull it up onto it. You'd take all the wooden benches. What not off of it. Winsch it up on a winch it up on a trailer and and deliver it or take it somewhere else or do something else with it and kind of like random high privacy screen. And there is some sort of like elements of wood in there that are also kind of creating a little bit of privacy screen but it is definitely a sculptural object that is also offering some function. And then there would be no regular standard tables around this would be in lieu of other seating. No there would be an option for probably four to six other sort of standard tables and stools. One of the I mean I'll let Abby speak to the to this. Yeah. I would rather not have other tables because we have to move them in and out or lock them up. And it's kind of this is sort of this was my dream so that we wouldn't have to do that. Okay. So hopefully not maybe if there's an event or something and we want to bring tables out for say July 3rd or something like that. I'd like to have the option, but I'm telling you we would really rather not have them at all. Okay. Is there a base on the bottom. And what's that material. I think you're pointing to the rectangle underneath the rectangle that was an exploration of like a foot rest. Okay, to be able to sort of see what. So, as this is definitely a likeness of what we would be building. It's not all the details are not like perfectly worked out but it would have there would be some foot rests there would be some. You know I can't guarantee that all the rods are going to be in the place where they're shown here but it would look very similar to this project. Correct. There's a wooden floor in there, and it would have kind of a gutter that runs all the way around the top that would bring the water down in one specific location instead of kind of having it. There's a step up like six inches or correct. Yeah, there would be a steel frame as a six inch steel channel is what the frame of it would be made out of so that it was rigid enough to be able to pull it around. And then we would use that to level it which would then create a six inch step up onto it. Are you going to provide any handicapped access. This is a great question. It's totally possible if necessary we'd chat with Abby about being able to maybe they're like you would be able to as a in a wheelchair you would be able to get to any of these sort of projecting tables or benches you would be able to get to those when you're on the ground when you're on the ground. If you're required to be able to get up inside there then yes we would create a ramp but at the moment that's not proposed because it felt as though you were still able to access it from the outside. You're not so likely to get out of the sun or the rain. Not the rain but the sun is a movable thing and it is. Well and that would be an advantage to the. In there then there would also be shade. If the platform is six inches above, you might think of doing what they do in Montreal and they just use the lengths of diamond plate as a slight ramp based on the, you know, based on the length of it in order to make, you know, maybe one access for each of the structures. Yeah, that's exactly kind of what we were thinking if it if it felt necessary. Yeah, I don't think it would be difficult at all to modify. No, that would be. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, we'd be happy to do that. I don't think that that's a. It doesn't complicate this at all really. One other question with this combination structure and greenery be removed from the side of the building. That's not our building. That would belong to Kelly from splash and that was left over from the pocket park. Okay. So we sort of left it there because it's pretty. Oh yeah. Technically it's a separate parcel. Right. So we can't really be on the separate parcel. Okay. No, I wasn't sure what if that was coordinated somehow or. Okay. It sort of looked nice, especially in this picture. I think, you know, the lights and everything. I think it'll look fine there. No, I, it was just a question. That's all. Not a recommendation. Okay. And then I did touch on it, but on the subject of the lights, the idea would be to reuse the current lighting. It will be strung differently, but it would be reusing exactly what's already been permitted in what's up there. Okay. Is there going to be any lighting on the. Cause he was at all. I have a lot of little Mason jar fairy lanterns that we've been putting in and out on the tables. They're basically like a Mason jar and they have little, like tiny lights inside. And they're solar. So we leave them out overnight or during the day. And then we put them on the tables. They're just movable. You're not putting any lights in there. You always had the option of putting some cable lights or some string lights inside the framework of the gazebos. And then you have the, the strings that come off of them. Somehow you have electricity for the others so you could tie them together, especially since you have the poles on the gazebos. Going up, you could tie to that and then do a perimeter lighting inside. If you wanted. Your permission. I think this is interesting. I think it's good to experiment with stuff, particularly when it's easily reversible. So, Charlie O's was the very first place I had a drink in Montpelier in 1975. The only place that looked like a bar to me being from Wisconsin. I mean, I appreciate that comment, Eric. This is definitely feels like we're kind of pushing into some architectural boundaries with this, but it is a temporary thing. And I really do think it would be. A pretty unique, interesting moment in downtown that I think the town would benefit from as well as Charlie O's. Are you going to paint the metal or anything? No, we were going to, we were going to leave it. We were going to leave it. We were going to leave it. We were going to leave it. We were going to leave it. We were going to leave it. We were going to leave it. We were going to leave it. We were going to leave it. Okay. Was it going to be durable or anything or? No. We were going to, we were going to leave it and let it. Kind of, who's going to get a natural patina, IE rust. You can get the court can still tool me. You can, but not. Not at price points that would facilitate the, the building of this, but there was a certain kind of. Wanted to stay true to a certain sort of grittiness that We're trying to keep in that vein a little bit. I agree with Eric. I think it sounds interesting. And the fact that it's movable really helps. And the fact that you're using the same, at least for the beginning, using the same screening I think also helps. Anyone have anything else to add at this point? No, the only thing that I would add to, and I don't know whether to send out purview or not, is to provide the handicapped access. That can be a recommendation. And it probably wouldn't be, I don't think I can put it as a permit condition, but it can still be the DRC's recommendation. And I think they've said that they would be happy to do it. I do have one question. At this point, it doesn't specifically say on this application anymore that they would need to come back next year. And this is something I want the DRC to figure out. Do they want to revisit this again next year, even if they're doing the same thing? Or at this point, is the design review committee happy that as long as it's the wooden fencing, that's the future part of it, as long as that's what's happening next year, if it waits till next year, that they don't have to come back again. It's only if it changes from here on out only if there's a significant change. I don't think it's necessary to come back. Okay. The only thing I'm just thinking here, I don't necessarily think it's necessary to come back. Since we don't know exactly what the design is, have it up for a year. And I don't know whether you need to come back for a permit or we can just, I'm not gonna worry about it. Yeah, I did wanna realize and I agree that we don't exactly know what this design is. The intention is that the wooden fencing is going to have random spaced gaps, random sized boards and random thickness boards. So it has a pretty kind of funky modern aesthetic to it. And this is definitely close and gestural of where it was going and what we wanna do, but I agreed it is not fully fleshed out. If that is something that prior to its construction that the committee wants to see, of course we'd be happy to share. Okay, anything else? I can go down through the criteria. Exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings should be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district. I think that's an, I haven't put the rule in queue. Because it's not a building really. But it's a, I would call it an accessory. So in either case, we'll just call it acceptable. Existing building should be recognized as a physical record of their time, place and use. And again, it's an accessory. So again, I could go either way, but I'll just call it acceptable. Proposed landscaping should be compatible with the neighborhood and the site on which project is located. There's really no proposal at this point for landscaping or plants other than the existing, existing material that's used to screen the area. And again, that's been approved. So I'm just gonna say acceptable, existing, existing exterior cover. Location and appearance of all utilities, mechanical equipment, trash storage and fencing. She'll be cited to minimize adverse visual impact more adequately and appropriately screened from public view acceptable. Outdoor lighting fixtures, there's the existing lighting, but again, there's an option for cable and or string lighting for the perimeter of the gazebos if you choose to add that. The structural design of outdoor lighting fixtures should be compatible with the architectural design and function of the building or compatible with the neighborhood acceptable. Landscaping, screening and site furnishings projects within the design review or relate district and subject to the landscaping requirements shall be, shall consider the following. Site furnishings including fencing, seating and other types of site furniture visible for the street or side yards. Those landscaping obscure or undermine key architectural patterns or elements on historic buildings, mechanical equipment screening, all of those that apply or acceptable. Accessory buildings and structures, new accessory buildings or structures shall be located within either the side yard or rear yard and shall not visually disrupt streetscape or affect the integrity of existing buildings or propose new buildings acceptable. All in favor of the application, speak your names. Eric, one thing I do want to say though is that I don't think the criteria work very well. You're right. Again, we just consider this an accessory to an existing building, which is. But I think it ought to be put in the notes so that it's not, it doesn't really match with any other buildings downtown or anything like that. I just think we ought to put that in the notes so it doesn't come back to haunt us later. Okay, I would you like to word that? This decision is based on these the temporary movable structures. This evaluation is based on that. Not just the application and evaluation of the application based on accessory structures and temporary movable accessory elements. Because you're looking at fencing, which is not as temporary. And then you're looking at the gazebos, which are movable and temporary only in the sense that they're not nailed down on a particular place intending not to be moved. And one of my definitions of temporary is anything shorter forever. Okay, and based on that, speak your name if you're in favor of the application. Eric, Steven, I say yes. Okay, vote is three to nothing in favor. There's a pen up there behind your laptop. We've got to put a fresh one there. So yeah, if you get Abby to sign that, it'd be awesome. Thank you very, very much everyone. Thank you so much better. Good, good luck with your project. Do you want us to email you when the permit's ready so you can pick it up? Yes, please. Okay, because yeah, we'll have to do a administrative site plan report. Do you have my email? Yes. Ben, I got a quick question. Are you going to do the welding on site or are you going to do it? I think that would be a great. You might do some, but most of it will probably do it at the shop. People love to watch stuff. I do. It'd be a definitely good charge. Drinks in a show. All right. There'll probably will be some on site welding and certain of it. You'll be the hottest bar in town. Right. Yep, thank you, Abby. Okay, we still have no one here for 75 Main Street. Yeah, I tried to, we'll see. I tried to text her with some other options as my emails at this point. It looks like her email system is blocking me. Uh-oh. Yep. Okay. So we'll move forward to the next application for 149 Main Street. The application for Gary Resonance, applicant, OAM Fisher Home. If somebody here for this project come forward and have a seat and get close to the microphone. Yeah, so we have lots of people here actually putting a bunch online. So. James is in person. Tom Bachman and Dan Wheeler are remote. And we also have Dan Hasson who is the development consultant for the Gary Resonance. Ron Stevens who you met three or four weeks ago when we get a preliminary review is on vacation and Dan Hasson is here to represent the audience. Thank you. There's different than what? Go in the same. They have printouts. Yep. Everybody's got the printouts. Okay. And whatever order you guys choose go ahead and describe your project. Okay. I guess I will start out here. It really hasn't changed significantly from what you saw three or four weeks ago or four or five weeks ago. Well, it was. We are proposing to build an addition or to the Gary Resonance. And just to pressure the Gary Resonance provides 13 beds of assistive living. The memory care facility will provide 18 memory care beds. And the complexity of the site is that we are in the flood plain. So in order to meet city and FEMA requirements our first floor of our addition needs to be 30 inches above the existing first floor of the Gary Resonance. And when you look at the plans you will see that we have a link that connects the two buildings and in that link is a ramp system that takes you up to the first floor of the Gary Resonance and then you can proceed up to the first floor of the memory care facility. Since we talked last time, I think last time there was the hand sketch that you saw indicated we had a roof garden. Unfortunately because of official cost estimate that has had to go away. So we no longer are proposing that. The rest of the project is very similar to I think what you'd seen before we have been working with Scott Newman who is a historic preservation consultant for the owner. And he has been our interface with the State Historic Preservation Office with Elizabeth Peeble. So we've had several meetings going back and forth who believe we have addressed all of Elizabeth Peeble's comments. She's reviewing it right now for our Act 250 application. So we expect you're back with her momentarily. So the addition is, again, I'm repeating some of the stuff we talked about last time but I just wanted to make sure everybody understands this. We do need to provide a fire stair that serves the second and third floor of the Gary Resonance. Right now there's a fire escape on the back of the building. So our part of our new construction will be a link from the second third floor that goes to a fire rated three story stair tower that gets you down and to create. The proposed memory care facility is all one level. Basically, it just doesn't work. You can't have memory care on multiple levels. It needs to be on one level. As part of the memory care facility, there is a private memory care garden.  So if you look at the renderings toward the end but actually the last package, last page of package. Give me a second and I will try and pull it up on the share screen. Okay, good. Well, there's also, are you looking at the last page of your package or what I gave to design review? That's a great solution, Meredith. So you want the renderings, right? Yes, next year. Yep, so give me just a second. I wanna make sure I'm zoomed in on it before I do a share screen. Otherwise I'm gonna make everybody dizzy. That's exactly what we wanna look at. So what you're looking at here is the three-story stair tower that we need for the building, what we are doing with the existing building, we are actually doing everything we can to respect that beautiful building that we've got. So we're touching it as lightly as we can. Link is only about eight feet wide, the glass link that takes you to stair tower. And then we're obviously our stair tower and our proposed building is all correct. And if you see where the two fellows are standing in the rendering, that is the private memory that is associated with first floor. So basically that has to be a self-contained garden so that people can't wander. And also, we do not want the memory care for people to be, I'm not sure if you're describing, we don't want them to be impacted by what's happening outside of the building too. And then if you look to the right entry from drive D, you can see the massing of the existing building. Basically it's all brick. We have two soldier courses at the corners. We have two soldier courses above each window. The windows are all black, aluminum plaid. The sills are precast concrete and we have precast concrete cap on the top. All of the mechanical equipment is roof mounted and it is screened with a screening wall that when James explains the landscaping, we can not show you exactly what we're looking at for screening walls. Now, Meredith, could you go back overall floor plan? Yep, give me just a minute. You're looking for the site plan or the floor plan? Okay, I guess Meredith, Dan just reminded me, I don't think you have the floor plan. So let's go to the landscape plan. Here we go. Let me know what you want me to zoom in on. Okay, James, I'm gonna turn this over to you to just give an overview of the landscape plan. And make sure you're right near that microphone. You can shift it closer to you if you need to. Hi, I'm James Finley-Sheris, landscape architect with Wagner-Hawakson. Excited to be working on this great project. I live here in Montpelier. Similar to Tom and GBA, our first decision was to recognize the historical importance of the existing structure there. And as a result, we've literally done no intervention on the front of the building. The trees, the street trees and all of the existing trees that face up onto Main Street will remain.  We'll have some granite chunk benches there for people to sit on as they await arrival or pick up. Moving further down, as Tom mentioned, we have a memory garden there. That is a screen from outside. But as you can see, we have it handsomely planted with all sorts of hydrangea and different flowering things. Then as we continue moving down through the parking, our challenge was to screen the extended foundation and we've done that with a series of different grasses, ornamental grasses. And behind those grasses, we'll have Boston Ivy trained up onto that brick building. So we expect that to really sort of soften some of the hard edges of the building. In terms of shading, there's some beautiful existing silver maples right on the southern property edge there. We're gonna leave those. Those will adequately shade the parking lot. There's also some existing cedars there. We will leave those untouched and have adjusted our paving to make sure that the screening of the southern edge is maintained. Also along the eastern edge, we're gonna keep those big cedars. As we get up to the northern, sort of the northeastern corner of the site, the cedars may come in conflict with the construction. We're gonna work with arborists to make sure we can protect them as well as possible. Any cedars that are injured will replace with new ones. Also on that eastern side there, we have a sidewalk or a path kind of going up, a path to catch that egress and entrance there. And that path works its way around to the north, flanked on both side by native shade tolerant fern mix. We expect the residents to do this circuit and have really tried to make it as beautiful as possible given the limited space. Along the north side, the sidewalk works its way back to Main Street, at which point we come across this terrace that will serve the entire facility in that terrace. If you could just go a little further west, Meredith. There it is. We have, again, these granite chunk benches and a flexible space with an arbor for shade for whatever events they have dining.  Again, nicely shaded and in the, right up against that beautiful existing tree there. To the north of this space, we're proposing a full perennial garden planting. Again, shade tolerant and primarily native to be enjoyed as part of that circuit around the site. I think that's it. Let me know if you have any questions. And actually, if I could just jump over, this is Tom Bachman. James just reminded me, you know, he had mentioned the Boston Ivy. I mean, one of our initial concepts with this building was to not distract from this building and make this almost a background building. And so we see this background building, you know, obviously it's much lower. And you see the brick walls as we put it almost like garden walls.  So as I say, this was always a concept to make this building stand behind and not compete with the beautiful building we have out front. So we're trying to make this as much of a, I don't wanna say non-building, but I guess background building is impossible camp. Now, Meredith, if you wouldn't mind pulling up the elevations. I've gotta remember which way they are. Give me a second. I think the elevations are up in the beginning. Give me a second. Maybe not. Here we go. There you go, there you go. I don't know if people can really see this, but we pulled out all the materials on this. We're trying to be as compatible as possible. You know, the main masses of the building where the residence rooms are, that's all correct. The links are with me, especially on the each side. We wanted to do some platform sightings to make a gesture to the neighbors that are on the other side of the cedar hedge. Hold on. Trying to figure out which side I'm supposed to be showing here on Zoom. There we go, that might help. That's actually a good one. Okay, it's moved to the east, just a little bit, Meredith, if you would, please. Uh, right or left? Right, screen right. Screen, screen right. Perfect, perfect. Okay. No, other way? Yeah, you had it. Okay, right there. This is actually an area that we've worked quite closely with Elizabeth Peebles on. This is the link that takes you from existing theory residence up to the 30 inches above the, in the memory code we talked about. This is being articulated as a porch.  So we wanna articulate this as much as a porch. We're obviously not making it look like it was built in, what was it? 1941, but we want to make this to be, this is sort of the transition from the historic building to then our new building. This is the area that James had just explained. There will be an outdoor terrace and there's a pergola just to the left of this porch area. There'll be a standing sea metal roof. We have snow guards on there. And we think this is gonna be a very pleasant place for the existing theory residence folks to hang out. And just a clarification, James had mentioned the walk that went around the building for exercise. That is intended for the current theory residence. Residents live there. Memory care residents will really not be leaving the building other than, so you can see that we have on the television all the materials are culled out. Anything that's labeled one is brick facing. We included a image of what that brick's looking like. We're not, it's just a little redder than the Gary residence. We don't wanna match that existing. We'd like to contrast it a little bit. So it is a gift, it's a similar texture to what we've got. The, I think we talked about the concrete cap and the concrete fills of the windows. We have exposed architectural concrete at the base. And again, because if you remember, we are 30 inches above grade, we will have 30 inches of concrete exposed. Dan and I have been talking about using a, a bag rub. Yeah, bag rub to finish on there, which would be a much smoother concrete. So it's not gonna look just like rock on the screening walls or the mechanical equipment on the roof and for the jump floor enclosure, those are gonna be horizontal slats. They will be either IPA or Cedar and both of those woods are going to weather to a gray. The reason we can't be specific right now, I'm sure most of you know materials and availability supply chains are a little in question right now. So we're making our best guess right now as to what we should get. And, you know, if there are significant changes, if there's a supply chain and we can't get something that we have described tonight, then I think we'll just have to come back to you. But we think, you know, that the materials are gonna be very similar for the screening, whether it be IPA or Cedar, white Cedar, the attachments to the building are all just clapboard. Let's see, what else do we have? Standing Seam metal roofs are on any of the pitched roofs. One thing you do, number 10, if you look on there, we do have to have flood gates in this link. We have included putts on this. How many putts do we have? I think we're looking at seven putts. We had to do a pretty thorough calculation to figure out what was going to equalize the pressure if there is water on the outsides building. So we've got seven of those. We've tried to make those as indiscreet as we can, try to keep them close to the building so they don't stand out. Those are basically, I think they're anodized, okay? Anodized finish. We've had a, I shouldn't say heck of a try, but we've had a little bit of research to try to find a thermal flood vent that will give us a decent R value. And we've got one, it's not as robust as the walls, but it will work. As we have, I'm sure you know, we have a very strict energy flow that we have to pass on a building like this. So that's kind of an overview. And we're glad to answer any questions. Thank you, Scott. Quick question from the exterior on the, I guess it would be the east, or I'm sorry, south side of the building. The screening wall for the memory garden, is that white or is it going to be a natural color or what's the color of that? That would be the same as the clapboard, which is a gray green. Repeat that again, please. The clapboard is what? The clapboards are going to be kind of a gray green, is what we're looking at right now. Okay. So that would match that, Eric. And then one other question. If you look at the three-story tower between the two existing and new building at the top, it has some detailed Cornus work. Is there going to be something similar on the single story behind it? Or is that just a cap, just a flat cap? Can you get a little closer to the microphone? Sure. It'll be the same as the single-story structure, just a cast concrete, simple Cornus cap. And under the cap, Eric, we have two soldier courses running around the entire building. We've done the same thing on the stair tower too. Okay. It was just, we could see the, on the picture of the stair tower, we could see the Cornus, the detail on the Cornus, but it wasn't clear on the single-story building. Okay. And that's a, seems to be a nice feature. Well, the intent is to match those, we will match those. Okay, thank you. And I think it's pretty clear in your drawings, but I'm just going to ask about the privacy screening for the memory care garden is shown in the renderings as a white, what looks like sort of metal finish thing, but I think it's called out to be e-pay or cedar in your drawings. And I just want to make sure that it's the e-pay cedar. Yes. That's what it is, man. Yeah, great. Tom, this is Martha. How close are you to this St. Paul Street border? 10, that's a 10 feet. Okay. So it gives some space there for those neighbors. Are you talking about the property line there? Yeah, I am. Yeah, it's 10 feet. Okay. Okay, I was thinking about the neighbors back there. Yeah, and Don, the executive director and Rebecca Hassem, the development consultant, didn't meet with neighbors and they were, they wanted to make sure that the privacy screen was staying. The cedar edge was up there. Yeah. So we are doing our absolute best. We're assuming it is, but as James had mentioned, if any of the cedar edges is damaged by construction, they will be required to replace that with equal cedars. Okay, thank you. I do have a question from a member of the public when we're ready. One of the people on Zoom. Okay, I will let Meredith coordinate that. But if anyone from the public has anything to, any questions or anything to add? I'll let you.  Yes, I did. Hi, I'm Diane Soffronan. I live along with my husband, Lou, in the property that was just mentioned. So we live on St. Paul Street, 24 St. Paul Street in the very small yellow house behind the cedar hedges. So we had a very good talk with Dawn, I guess last week or so, and we did look over briefly the drawings that Meredith just sent us this afternoon. So a couple of very quick questions. You've touched on some of the issues, but I wanted to get a little more clarification. And by the way, you can see we are in our kitchen. And if you look out our window, you can see the hedges right there. The hedges on our side are about three feet from our house. Four feet from our house. So it's obvious to us that the hedges are very critical. Unfortunately over the years, because of the snow plowing and things that went on in the very back, the hedges have actually become kind of thinned out. So I would hope that when things are finished and attention is being made to them, they can be adequate. That was one thing. So the hedges are really, really critical to us. I would hope that they don't have to come down during the building because that would make life pretty difficult for us. We don't have the air conditioning and we look right out the windows in the summer. And it was cool. In terms, as I understood the new drawings, what would be directly behind our kitchen window is the maintenance building. And so I'm just gonna focus on these things because these are very big to us, although there are small details in this entire huge ambitious project. But the maintenance building looked like it is standing basically where the dumpsters are now, which is outside our windows. So I gather that it's not going to be very tall. It looked like in the rendering, the architectural rendering, it looked like there was some little green space between the hedge and the building, but I don't know if that was just in a sort of a generic rendering or whether the building will be exactly right up against the hedges. And what comes to my mind in that regard is will they be able to maintain the hedges if in fact the building is right up against them. The other question I had was about the dumpsters and I see that there's going to be fencing around the new positioning of the dumpsters, which is to the left of our kitchen window.  So it will screen the dumpsters from our view. And are the dumpsters going to be significantly bigger than the ones that exist now? I mean, I sort of guess they might because you have a lot more residents in the new project. When we spoke with Dawn, some of the neighbors and us on Zoom, we talked about the lighting and I mentioned the lighting and there has to be lighting in that kind of a facility outside. And she did say something about motion sensitive lighting, which would make our life a lot better. So that's something also that I hope can be considered at least certainly towards the back of the whole complex. And the final issue that I was curious about was the ventilation that's going to be on the roof of the new building and how far back along that length of building it is going to be situated is it's going to be something that's really towards the end and therefore will become very audible to us. Like I said, we don't do air conditioning and we have our windows open. And here we are in our kitchen right on the border. So those were the issues that I was curious to get a little more clarification. And I, we really urge you, these things are not necessarily huge to pay attention to on your end, but they're definitely hugely impactful on our end. So the cedar hedges, the position of the maintenance building, the question of the screening of the dumpsters and the lighting and ventilation in terms of sound. So those were all the issues that really impact us. So a lot of other things look great, but we wanted some clarification. So thank you very much. This is James, the landscape architect. Can I respond to those questions? Yes, go ahead. My name is James, I'm a landscape architect. I live here in Montpelier. I'm also a member of the tree board here. I do take great pride in all of our city trees and the cedar hedge is very important to us as well. So what we'll do is once we get the construction team on board, we're going to contract with an arborist to come and take an evaluation of the cedars. And if required, based on their management plan, we will look at fertilizing the cedars and getting them on a maintenance or sort of fertilizer management program. If we need to cut any of the roots to allow for the construction, we'll have them air spaded and those roots will be treated with a hormone which suppresses the growth of the cedar during the construction period. So it reduces the stress on the cedar during that period. So we will go to, you know, we're going to really thoroughly make sure that those cedars are taken care of as best they can be. I can speak to the dumpster, the dumpster will be surrounded by fence on all four sides. The lighting has a mode that it goes into in the evening where after a certain time set by the owner, the lights go into a 40% energy saving mode. And then beyond that, they become only motion sensor, turned on by the motion sensors. So at night it will be dark. It will not be very bright for you at all. The maintenance building, but there is space between the cedars and the maintenance building. Our thought was to just leave a native red fescue grass to let it grow. We won't cut it back. We'll just let it grow, it flops over and we were just going to leave it at that. So hopefully no lawn mower is going back and forth there. And I think those were the questions. There was also the question about the location of the rooftop ventilation system on the building. How far back is that? Okay, I defer to Tom on that one. Okay. So basically we have a air source heat pumps. We have one piece of equipment up there across the generator. And it is, well, I don't have an exact degree of where this is. It is Diane at the east end of the building. So it's, let me check it. Basically, what the zoning regulations say in Connect 250 is that noise level has to be 55 decibels or lower at the property line. And what we are specifying is equipment that will be 55 decibels or less on the building. So we are doing better than what the requirements are. And Meredith, I can't remember if this is a requirement of yours or if this is an Act 250 requirement. I think that's an Act 250 requirement, but Montpelier does have a noise ordinance. It's separate from the zoning regulations. So I would need to look back at the Montpelier's noise ordinance. And that can be something, now that we've had the design review committee meeting and know that that's a question, I can circle back to that in my staff report before the development review board meeting. And it might be something where you can send me, I don't know if we have a rooftop that shows exactly where that equipment will be. It might be that you send me a new image before DRB to show me where that is. Okay, we can do that. Okay, awesome. I did want to clarify, you said that the ventilation system is in the east. Could you, I don't know which exactly is east. So if you could tell me where it is in relation to the building that you're building is. The east is at the end of the building where your house, where your property is. Oh, so it's on our end of the building? Yes, it is. The air source heat pump is, the generator is at the west end of the building. Okay. Is that the noisy? Which one is noisier? The generator is the noisier one, but the generator only kicks on, I think it's once a week for 15 minutes. It has to run to lubricate its parts. And it will run, obviously, if there was power outage because it runs the elevator. Yeah. So Diane, that is the noisier piece of equipment will be the generator. Okay, okay. I did just have one other question in terms of the hedges and then I'll let everybody continue. It would be great if when the attention is given towards the hedges, they could be more of a screen than they are. Because as I said, over the years, in terms of the thickness of them or the healthiness or the number of them, because over the years, as the clouds push the huge amounts of snow further and further back, really right into the hedges, it really damaged them. And since we are so close, we really see pretty much right through them. We have a few of the dumpsters. We see the dumpsters and we see the garbage cans and we see everybody putting everything in it. And we're neighbors, we're close, but it would be great if, considering there'll be more things back there and the building, it would be great if they could function a little better than they have been sort of deteriorated over the years. We've been here 15 years and we've watched them kind of get thinner and thinner. We're hopeful that with that kind of tree expertise that you're going to use that they can really function to help us and then we'll be happy. Well, Diane, this is Tom Bachman speaking with the new layout, with the maintenance building and the dumpster with the enclosure around. There's no way they can be pushing snow. Yes. They are any further. So actually I think that's gonna make your situation better. What it means is that the Gary residence is going to have to truck off snow. Yes. In a heavy snow event, they will store snow in a couple of parking lots or parking spaces and they will have to have that snow. Yeah. And what, I thought the same thing that that was kind of a silver lining when I looked at the renderings and what actually will be in the maintenance building? It's basically, you know the garage that they've got in the backyard now? It's basically where they store patio furniture, that sort of thing. I see. It's basically the storage facility. It's not gonna be a work room. Okay. It's not a garage door and a people door, but it's just for the maintenance person to store his equipment in. Yeah. And you said that was the, that building would also be some kind of a clabbered site. Yes it is. Okay. Okay. Thank you very much for clarifying everything. Thank you. Thanks, I'm done. Is there anyone else from the public who has anything to add or questions? There's no, everybody else who's on is for applications. So we're good. There's applicants or team. Okay. Do any of the other committee members have any other comments, questions or suggestions? I do not. Okay. And we can go through the criteria for the project. For all projects, exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings shall be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district. The removal of extort of historic materials or alteration of features and spaces that characterize an historic property shall be avoided character defining features, finishes and construction techniques or examples of craftsmanship that characterize an historic building shall be preserved. There are no deteriorated features that apply here. Any treatments that cause damage to historic materials including but not limited to chemical or physical treatments such as sandblasting shall not be approved for new construction shall be considered to be compatible if the materials used possess a kind or type that are appropriate to the district. Materials selected shall either fit the neighborhood context of the proposed building and or reflect the nature and use of the structure. That's acceptable. Existing buildings shall be recognized as a physical record of their time, place and use. Any new development shall be differentiated from the old but shall respect and be compatible with the massing size scale, architectural features, detailing and overall character of their primary historic building and nearby historic properties that's acceptable. Proposed landscaping shall be compatible with the neighborhood and the site on which the project is located that's acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities, mechanical equipment, trash, storage and fencing shall be cited to minimize adverse visual impact or adequately and appropriately screened from public view acceptable. Alterations to buildings called for by public safety, accessibility and fire codes shall be designed to maintain the character of the construction materials and features to the maximum extent feasible, acceptable. Height of building addition shall not overwhelm the primary facade and must consider varied heights of existing building and adjacent buildings. Height of a new building shall be compatible with the varied heights of existing adjacent buildings acceptable. Proportion, compatibility of relationship between width and height or facades as well as relationship of width to height of windows and doors acceptable. Rhythm, the visual patterns established by the alterations of solid walls and openings, windows and doors in the facade of the building shall create a rhythm that's acceptable. Roof shape and equipment, consider similarity or compatibility with roof shapes and immediate area, conceal rooftop equipment and features on flat roofs for my level view from adjacent public rights of way and from the ground level of any adjacent properties. Roof forms and pitch shall not be altered on the primary facade acceptable. Architectural features, including but not limited to cornices, windows, shutters, fan lights, and tablet or trim and other forms of molding or character defining detailing prevailing on the existing building shall be considered in the alteration of a building. Architectural features on an addition shall not duplicate but shall respect the original historic building's architectural features acceptable. Roof drainage systems shall not hide or obscure architectural character defining features and shall run adjacent to building corners when possible acceptable. Outdoor lighting features, the structural design of outdoor lighting fixtures shall be compatible with the architectural design and function of the building and compatible with the neighborhood acceptable. This is the long one Steve, sorry. No, that's okay. There's a lot more to go through. Well, there are a lot of components of this project. Landscaping, screening, and site furnishings. Projects within the design review overlay district and subject to the landscaping requirements in section 3203 shall consider the following. Site furnishings including fencing, seating, and other types of site furniture visible from the street or side yards. Does landscaping obscure or undermine key architectural patterns or elements on historic buildings and mechanical equipment screening? And for historic structures existing historic and contributing resources such as street trees, fences, gates, walls, steps, gazebos, walkways, front and side yard patterns shall be retained or restored when impacted by the alteration of a building. Walls and fences shall be compatible with the site and the building in scale traditional materials and design that reflects the period of the building and or is a quit compatible with the surrounding context acceptable. Criteria for historic structures only. Windows and doors on historic structures, character defining windows and door patterns, placement sizes, proportions and original features such as trim, sash, and molding shall be preserved to extend possible when preservation not possible. Such character defining windows and doors must be rehabilitated or replaced in time. It doesn't seem to even be applicable so far. Windows and doors that are not character defining may be replaced but such replacements must be compatible with historic buildings, style materials and architectural features. So there's only a minimal impact because of the addition in the rear of the existing building. But any of those changes are acceptable. Porches and stairs only struck structures. Location of porches, ramps and stairs shall be placed in a manner that does not impact or undermine the original in significant ornamentation or detailing of the existing buildings. Stairs, ramps and porches shall employ suitable detailing to connect and be compatible with the historic and imported design features of existing buildings and new construction. Stairs and ramps shall be designed in a manner with details of materials that provide the most sensitive and compatible structure that fits the building design and layout. And again, the addition to the rear of the existing building achieves that. criteria for new building. New development shall incorporate sustainable design and construction methods and materials compatible with historic materials and styles acceptable. Scale and massing of new buildings shall be compatible with surrounding structures acceptable. Orientation, new buildings should be oriented toward and relate both functionally and visually to public streets and or common greens, parks or plazas to provide a uniform streetscape. New principal structures should be located and oriented with their fronts parallel to the street and with a setback distance comparable comparable to adjacent structures acceptable. This one's a little different. I have these in here because I mean, we do have the new shed. The addition's a little different because you don't really have a choice on orienting it towards the street because it's at the rear. Yes. So it was kind of hard to throw these and not be able to put too many notes in. There are portions of each of these that are applicable to some degree. Continuity of physical elements such as yards, fences, evergreen masses or building facades along a street acceptable context and connectivity. Building design shall be sensitive to the overall character and context of the design review overlay district and to adjacent buildings acceptable. Accessory buildings and structures. New accessory buildings or structures shall be located within either the side or rear yard and shall not visually disrupt the streetscape or affect the integrity of the existing building or proposed new building. And again, the only recommendation was what was brought up in terms of the conversation was that the cedar hedges at the rear of the property will be maintained and or supplemented to provide adequate screening for the residential properties on St. Paul and Brown Street. And given all of that, do I hear a vote to for approval on the project? Yeah, it says yes. Ben says yeah. This is Martha. I say yes. And Steve says yes. So it's approved for to nothing. Just so you know, we do not have a development review board meeting tonight and we do have our representative for our first application. So if everybody is willing to stick around, we have the room to be able to do our third application and the rest of our business. Can James sign the recommendation form for the applicant or do I need to scan it to somebody else to sign? If James feels comfortable signing it, we're fine with that. You're okay with that, James? You're on the hook.  So you can sign right there. And then I will see everybody in two weeks for the development review board hearing. Thank you all. Thank you guys. Yes, thank you all. Thank you. And good luck with your project. Good night. Okay, so we do have Sarah here for the Bailey Road signage. Sarah, if you can unmute yourself. Hi, everyone. Hi, Sarah. Hi. So let me know if you want me to screen share your application, at least the images of the sign. I can do that or Martha, if you need to see it, I can pull that up on the screen. Is it different than what's in our packet? No, okay. No, but just sometimes I can zoom in a little bit if it's needed, but this one's fairly simple compared to everything else we've discussed tonight. That's true, very true. Go ahead, Sarah, and describe your signs for us. Sure. So I'm using the existing sign area where number nine had their old sign. And I'll be painting plywood black to match the current existing trim on the building. And I'm having a plywood base because there's holes left over from the previous sign. So I just wanted a smooth finish. And then on that plywood base, we will put individual letters spelling out Bailey Road. And there'll be 20 inches tall, 1 eighth inch thick. It's made out of steel with a gold powder finish used for exterior and interior signage. I believe on like page two or on the cut sheet, you can kind of see the proportions that that would look like. So it should fill most of the sign space. And I mean, that's pretty much it. We might do a little bit of molding to hide any of the imperfections between the plywood base and the old exterior sign, which has a little bit of trim. So I just kind of want to hide some of that like weird like circle molding just to make it feel all finished. I think I can share my screen or my content on my screen. You should be able to. I just want to show you what the interior looks like. I have lettering behind my cash wrap and this will look similar to this. Did it come through at all? No, try again. Okay. So it won't have the tagline for your home and closet, but it would just be the Bailey Road letters on a black background. That same kind of font, Sarah. It will be the font that you see in the cut sheet, which is a little bit more. A little heavier. A little bit heavier, yep. Okay. Also the background will just be solid plywood and not the shiplap that you see here, but it's still that same color gold. Yep. And then, Sarah, will the letters be held off the plywood like in your inspiration photo or will they be flat applied? Nope, there'll be a space between the plywood and the letters. Each letter has a separate mounting hole and screw that kind of leaves a little bit of space.  You don't know. I don't know. I could measure the ones behind my cash wrap. I can fit maybe like my pinky finger behind it, but it's pretty tight. Yep, okay, great. And then I assume the screws, they're providing you with screws that have also been powder coated gold. Yep. To match with the letters. You won't actually see the, you won't actually see the screw through the letter with how the hardware is on the back. Even better, nice. Yeah. And then you're applying for the sign at the rear too, right Sarah? I'd like to remove that application. My current sign doesn't fit in the space. I'm just going, it like fit really tight, but I don't really like the look of it. So I'm just not gonna move forward with that. Okay. Is the sign band the 222 inches, is that in your cut sheet? You've got the letters take up 174 inches. Yep. The whole sign band. No, the whole sign band is the 222. Okay. Anyone have any comments, questions, suggestions? Ed, Jake, how about Eric? I guess the only question I have is, you're gonna be painting that plywood that is gonna skim over the sign band? Yep. I'm curious, I guess the color is to match the black that's above it there and that goes into that, all that molding detail. Yeah. And I'm wondering whether that's all gonna get painted at the same time or just to blend or whether it's just gonna be close enough. Just probably the case. I'm willing, I could change the black I worked, I painted the, did a fresh coat of paint on the bottom of the entryway already to match and I used what Tim Heaney already had. So I would be willing to not do tricorn black and do what they had in the past. I just think it would be nice if it all was consistent and not like just a fresh coat in the sign band. But if you've done the bottom one way and are willing to kind of make it all be the same, I think that would be great. So you're just saying like a fresh coat on the molding so that it doesn't look like one's faded and one isn't? Correct. Yeah. I think that's a great idea. I would love to do that. You tell him. My dog, my dog agrees.  Is three quarter inch, like a traditional, I guess I didn't go into that much detail there. I would just use a traditional, I'd like as thin as possible because I want the sign to stay within the brick bookends of that fascia board. Yeah. Is it, is it, is it tucked under the molding on the, along the top that's there, the existing black part? It will fit underneath the like, you know, see that green little band that is around the previous sign. Barely. The goal is to fit within that green kind of frame. And then if we need to use any kind of molding, just to make it feel seamless, we would do that. And I assume you're using like an MDO exterior plywood, paper face that's really flat and smooth. Yeah. My contractor had had that in mind, I believe. Yep. And depending on how well the top of the plywood is covered by the existing molding, you may want to put a thin cap on top of the plywood because between the afternoon sun hitting your sign and the funky weather we seem to have here in Vermont, it's a good idea to protect the edges, at least on the top and sides, just to prevent them from delaminating, which I can attest will happen if you don't. I will take all of that advice. We want you to be around for a while and we want your sign to last. I agree. Okay, that's noted. Any other comments, questions or suggestions? Okay, I'll go down through the criteria for the sign. The size, location, design, color, texture, lighting and material of all exterior design, exterior signs within the design review over Lake District shall be compatible with the building and structure of the site and surrounding properties. Acceptable. I didn't ask, is there any lighting on the sign now or any proposed? No lighting now and none proposed. Okay. If a building has multiple tenants, there shall be consistency in placement and size among all signs, acceptable. It is recommended that sign placement be centered over building entries, acceptable. Sign installation shall minimize damage to character-defining materials on the building, acceptable. In masonry buildings, fastener shall be in the mortar joints, and it doesn't look like that's the case here. It's in an existing wooden sign band, but I'll just say not applicable. Sign design, color, and typography shall respect historic precedence where appropriate and shall be of the appropriate scale for existing and new buildings, acceptable. Sign support structure shall be compatible with the building architecture and must not be overly complex or dominant in and of themselves, acceptable. All in favor of the application, speak your names. Eric says yes. Ben. Martha says yes. And Steve says yes. So vote is four to zero in favor. Thank you. So, Sarah. Let's see what you decide to do on that back door too. Me too. That'll have to be phase two. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I guess I'm just putting this out there. If I wanted to paint the current yellow black to match, is that something I come back to the design review committee for? No. If all you're doing is painting that rear surface because that's already painted, you can just change the color of that to black without having to get any zoning permit. Okay. Thank you. Could we give approval to do a similar sign on the back and go letters, obviously at a smaller scale to fit into that small space? She's already paid the fee. So. Then we can do that as an option for you. That would be great. Or, Sarah, I would like to see you use your logo back there. That'd be great. You said your existing sign is too large. It is, yep. But if you were to scale it down, would you like to do that? I could, I'd rather do it in gold than like a wooden frame what it is now. Okay. So something like what you have on the back of the application, but in gold and scaled down. Yes. So this here. Yes, okay. So you guys, if you, she's already paid for that. So if you approve that and give her those two options for the rear sign, we can do that and give her the option and then she can figure out what she can get created that makes sense. I can show you what the layout would look like. Maybe I can't right away. Let's see. So we give her the option of just of doing gold letters or doing the logo sign with gold letters on a black background as well. Yep. And smaller. Yep, you can always, you can pretty much always go smaller with the signs. Okay. If you need to. Okay, great. Thank you. Yeah, your share screen wasn't working. I don't know if you want me to, was it something that was in the application? No, it was kind of my new logo, which I was trying to figure out how to share it. If you have it open and you hit the share screen button on the bottom of your zoom window, you should be able to, it should give you options of the various different files you have open. Okay. Let me do this. I apologize for that. Oh, it's okay. Okay. And again, the option was for the rear building entrance sign. And again, you can either use Bailey Road gold letters on a black background or use the logo sign with the lettering in gold on a black background. Oh, so this is the new logo. This is the new logo. I wouldn't do the Montpelier of Vermont. And there wouldn't be a shadow behind the flurdery, but it would be the image of the home, the flurdery and the stacked logo. If you could send me that image, because it's something you've shared with the committee, I can add it to the file as the, a new version of what the sign might look like. That would be great. Would you use the same font as you're using on the front? Or would you use that font? I think I would need to use this sign maker couldn't do custom font. So I would have to use the same font on the front. Do you want me to put that back up? I think it's okay. Okay. So she could do either combination of lettering and logo using what she has or what she's showing there. Great. Well, just for the, to actually issue the permit, I think we'll need to have a sense of how big that rear sign is going to be. Okay. Just because we have to have documentation of how much total building sign area has been used up. Okay. But you've got, you know, the design review committee's approval. That's a good first step. Yes. Based on the, whatever limitation it may be on the back, it's just of a size and proportion suitable for the existing framing. Awesome. So I'm going to scan this and send it to you, Sarah. So you can sign off on it. So that'll be the first step. Well, we'll discuss how to, because I know you want to get your signage on the front up as soon as possible. It sounds like you're ready to order that. So we'll work out how to, how to figure out the rear signage. Okay. Okay. That will be a little while. Anyway. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. You'll hear from me through the email. Okay. Thank you. Sounds good. Bye. Good luck with your project and your move and all of the above. Appreciate it. Bye. Okay. Bye. Is everyone ahead of chance to look at the meeting minutes of March the 7th? I have. Yes. Steve, I noticed that after Eric entered the meeting, the next paragraph says that Liz asked if the signboard could be moved. That was actually me, not Liz. Thank you. Okay. Any other changes? Otherwise, do we hear a motion to approve the minutes? So moved. All second. All in favor, speak your names. Eric. And Steve. So minutes are approved. I'll make that edit. Thank you. Any other business? One thing I should have brought it up at the beginning, but I think there's an issue with some zoning changes that are coming up that changes the density of 1,500. Yes, residential 1,500. And part of it involves that the, Mike Miller suggested in his note to the city council that the design review be changed first because what they're doing is the density is very likely, not very likely, but there's some chance it'll include the alternative have lots of more units, smaller units, just a building code rather than a density code. And so, and in some places that's resolved in teardowns and rebuild because somebody could put a bigger house or a bigger building and a lot. I intend to go testify about two things that the city council made on Wednesday. And one is that yes, the design review should is probably the best vehicle to prevent drastic changes in the neighborhood. And second, I would like to see the city consult with design review and the historic preservation commission when they're developing these kinds of regulations and codes because we're appointed and there are the ones that are appointed because of our expertise and knowledge and the city just don't think advantage of that. I think that's a good idea because a lot of that zone is outside of design review. So there is really no approval process for somebody who may wanna take something down and put up just a big square box. There's no other review process. And if you wanna maintain any kind of character in those neighborhoods, I think if somebody wants to do something pretty, it's one thing to do an interior renovation or maybe put an addition on the back of an existing building. But at some point, if there's a significant change in the character or appearance of a building for that purpose, I think it's a good idea to review on a number of the items. The appearance of the building, the height, scale, parking. I mean, there are a lot of features that enter into somebody making a change like that. And there ought to be some kind of a review process for that, particularly if it's not in the existing design review district. Yeah, I mean, if it's a brand new building, it does have to go through a more limited architectural and character review when it goes into major site plan. But that's just the development review board and it's not anywhere near as detailed as what we've laid out in the design regulations. And really the ones that won't have any review like that are the additions or where they suddenly switched out a bunch of windows. It's outside of design review. We don't, it needs a building permit. It doesn't need a zoning permit if they've just changed out a bunch of windows and doors and revamped it to have four new entrances instead of one. So there's a lot that could be changed to change a character of a neighborhood without any look at scale, massing, architecture, how it fits in at all. It would be nice if they want to increase the density to have some review of that, just so that you're not taking something, maybe Liberty Street or a street that you're gonna change the whole character of the neighborhood depending on what somebody puts back if there's not some kind of review. Yep, and Mike Miller agrees with that opinion and his thought was, make sure design review matches with wherever you're suddenly getting rid of residential density. Yes. You gotta lay that design review over it if you're gonna get rid of those residential density. Steve, you probably know as well as anybody. Nobody knows where the real estate business is called. Hard to predict. I mean, it's the impact of the tear down to the smaller buildings is usually in resort areas and things like that, but somebody theoretically with this could tear down a two-unit structure and put up an eight or 10-unit structure and increase the income from the property. Yes, so absolutely. And where the break-even is on that, who knows. So we're all for adding even though it probably would mean ultimately more work for the committee, we certainly would encourage that to happen so that it controls the quality of what's either added to or what's replaced with. So that'll be at the city council meeting this Wednesday. That meeting I think starts at 5.30. The agendas are posted on the city's agendas and meeting minutes page. And there's several items of business before they get to the zoning rewrite. This is one aspect of the zoning rewrite. There's no telling. They can change the agenda around too. They can change the agenda around, you're right. So probably log on at the beginning of the meeting. Good point, good point. Okay, anybody have anything else to add? Do I hear a motion to adjourn? Don't move. I second it. All in favor of adjournment, speak your names. Martha. Eric. Ben. And Steve's meeting is adjourned. Next meeting is April the fourth. Great, thank you. Thank you all for coming and have a nice evening. Bye-bye.