And I see a question at the back. Just to re-understand this, what you're saying is the identity policy or the concept of identity is correct, but the way it is implemented is wrong. And I'm looking at it not from the UK perspective. I'm looking at it more from the US side. Look, let's nuance the idea. What I'm hopefully was trying to say was that the idea of having a ways of identifying people, and I would say particularly birth registration, is a very important feature for the inter-think. Yeah. Like in the UK perspective, in India, the obvious subsidy in India is about $50 billion. Last year, because of the fiscal year taken in March, we had about 1.5% of the GDP spent in subsidies. Since 1947 in India, about out of the British world, trade is the best in the amount of time. We have been running power-carrying programs. None of the poverty has come. Only the people who started the profiting in these programs, their poverty probably has gone according to the richest people moving around. Why is it? Because I'm serious not targeted. Today, I have a Mercedes Benz, a diesel Mercedes Benz, and I'm getting the benefit of a very subsidized fuel. Nobody wants to raise the price of the fuel. They say, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So who's getting the benefit of the fuel? So that's the reason. The only program that's for those kind of things, the larger thing, the second thing, the fuel program, that is the biggest. I think for such a thing there was a lot. The UIT program has nothing to do with the KYC, anything of that.  Just three states, three states in India, my limited UIT program, have got the benefits. In India, the PTA is the public distribution system. The fraud in PTAs is about $20 billion. The fraud, out of that, 60% of the fraud because of duplication of records. So, my name, Samir Kisai, okay, I exist in 25 places. Some places I exist, like a below poverty line person, I get subsidization, correct? Now, one state, just limited to this, reduced their public distribution burden by 60%. The total cost, the total cost of the UIT program of the UIT project is not as high as in the past because what we are doing is just the UIT project. Yes, it will happen. The company is in the system. Okay, okay. My presentation is pretty rough. Okay, no, no, no, I'm happy to answer the question. My question is, so, what do you tell us in the UK experience in the world? No, I would have a question, I understand. Fine, okay. And the government is, that's fine. I'm happy to take the question. I'm happy to defer to an expert on PDS who was, I think, will want to respond in terms of the figures. Let's just think through the practicalities of the subsidized fuel. I am not aware at the moment of any intention to roll out to petrol stations, to fuel stations, a biometric reader where by every time you wish to purchase fuel, you will present your fingerprint. It will then be checked against the central database. The current, again, this workshop I was at, the current turnaround time is about 10 seconds end to end for that transaction. So you want to get on with your life. It's taking 10 seconds for the system to come back and say the fingerprint that we hopefully have matched says that you, well, actually it doesn't, it just says that you are a person. Currently it doesn't link it to your tax status. Or is it? That's stage, what you like. No, no, no. Okay, I'm going to moderate. I'm going to moderate. Okay, let's have, let's not have a one. No. Let's not have a one. No, I'm going to moderate. That's not a single thing. No, I'm going to moderate. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That's okay. Come ahead. Come ahead. Please come ahead. No, please come ahead. Take your mic. No, no, no. I would really like if you just ask a specific question. No, why do you have to ask that? What's wrong with you? Once again. Please allow me. Please allow me. Please allow me. Please allow me. Just ask your question. Allow me to respond. Let's not have legal reactions. Okay, my thing is, what's the main objection to the EYE project that you feel is that the way you've implemented or does that mean you should not have any or do you think of the EYE project? No. My concern is, I'll come back to the mic. The, I don't know enough about the detailed operations. I am simply based on what I have heard and have read about is I am not aware of any PDS systems at the moment using the biometric-based UID because it has to be the biometric because just giving a number is not going to do any checking is actually leading to a wholesale reduction in fraud. It might be, I'm not aware of it. I'm also not aware that the multiple recipient fraud is the greatest proportion of the fraud but this is where experts who study this area have their own more detailed evidence to provide. So that's, I don't know. I suspect that it's not as huge as you are indicating it is and I am, should we say perplexed as to how this is already stopping this from happening because as far as I'm aware it's only been the enrollment process. I'm not aware of any significant roll out of online verification services and even if that were to be the case I'm certainly not aware of any secure online verification services because if I wish to do, if you are my friend and I wish to do the fraud then I accidentally kick the power supply out when you present your fingerprint and it comes back and it doesn't come back. Oh, we assume that you're okay and we'll give you the food at that particular point. So if you want to have, you have to make sure that every single transaction is a verified transaction and that is a huge step up which will increase the costs and I'm not aware and I'm happy to be correct. One of the reasons for coming is to learn more and to, you're wrong on this and it's a differing interpretation, et cetera. I'm not aware that that is happening at the moment. So therefore I would be surprised, pleasantly surprised if it is having those kinds of effects. That's the intention, fine. My question becomes, how do you get to that intention and what are the risks all the way along the route of how that desirable intention of reducing benefit-related fraud is addressed and whether that really is the core of the problem that needs to be, that should be a focus for significant government activity. That's, I'm gonna fall back to being an academic. As an academic, those are the interesting questions and my understanding is that the evidence is not yet there, that the problem is of that nature and that the solution is having that effect.  If the evidence is not there yet, that's something that needs to be studied and I look forward to hearing more about it. Actually, there just seems to be generating that from the government and it seems it's just been perpetuated by the money and it's just disappeared. What does one do? Try to move it back to a messy machine. Yep. I think this is one where I really can say, as someone in the UK who's been here for five days, I really don't have an answer to that particular one, I'm afraid. Yeah, and how you act about that. I mean, I think, again, kind of coming from my academic background, the interesting question is, okay, so you've got these intentions, these desires, there's talk about different government departments starting to include UID as one of their identifiers. Just to see how much is actually being done, when is it being proposed? What kind of coverages? What kind of benefits? What kind of costs to benefits? So separate from money being spent irresponsibly, which is technically a kind of budget oversight kind of issue. Let's assume that they are spending it in the right kinds of ways. What are the plans for the next stages of the scheme? What are the plans whereby the kinds of benefits that the previous speaker was hoping for are going to become? How are they going to be delivered? Again, when we were in discussions with the UK, there was one particular event where I was on the same panel as the lead administrator for the program. And one of the questions that I asked was, there was currently, as far as I'm aware, no plans for card readers so that you could actually use the card online to prove your identity. What is the time scale? Not how many have you got, but what is the time scale for rolling those out? Is it going to be a year? Is it going to be two years? He didn't have an answer. They hadn't even thought about that next stage because at that point, they were just interested in giving people cards. They hadn't thought about the next stage of the benefits for the individual. And that then gets a real concern from industry. Industry is saying, you're promising as this, but you haven't even given us the technical specifications for saying how we can access the documents, the verification services or whatever. You haven't told us what level of accreditation we need to achieve to be allowed to use that service directly to know whether or not you have, in the UK case, an ID card or not. So again, what are the equivalent mechanisms in place for rolling out the use of UID in these different scenarios? And if there aren't plans for those kinds of things, that's when you need to start asking the question. So we've done all of this, but we haven't even thought about the next follow-on stages. Can't we think about getting those next follow-on stages getting sorted out? This question where when you were in UK and they were, they were, so what were the inadequacies of the present identification system which led to them telling, okay, we need to be able to identify them. Okay, again, it would vary from government minister to government minister. It would vary according to their particular desires. Towards the end of the scheme, they were really concerned about young people, 18 to 21-year-olds, particularly going into bars, technically buying, in those old-fashioned days when you used to buy DVDs from the shop kind of thing, and you had to prove that you were over 18 to buy particular things. But particularly going into bars and nightclubs, there was a concern that because they've got very strict, you have to be over 18, which typically means if you look anything less than 25, they'll ask for proof of ID, which was a bit of an over-characterization. The story was that particularly women would bring their passport as a proof of ID and they would either leave them on the floor in the kind of corner of the nightclub at the end of the night because they had too much to drink and it had fallen out of their handbag, or they put it in their shoe, which was not a particularly desirable thing either, or people use their driving licence, and the problem with the driving licence in the UK is it also has the home address.  It doesn't require here is my full name, my place of birth, my date of birth, my home address, et cetera. In fact, the UK ID card had the full name, place of birth, date of birth of everybody because it was also intended to be used as a travel document. It was made, it had to be printed on the front of the card and the next home secretary, so not Charles Clark, another one, when it was finally released, proudly displayed his identity card to the press and the newspapers picked up the photo of this and made a big thing saying about the British crown and the crest and whatever but it also had his full name, date of birth, place of birth. In the UK we have a good register of births and you can request birth certificates online. The only three pieces of information that you would need to give, full name, date of birth, place of birth. You can imagine what happens. Alan Arthur Johnson, made a 15th, 1952 from memory, born in London. Now if you're called Edgar Whitley and you come from a small town, it's pretty likely that there wasn't a second Edgar Whitley born in that town on that day. A second Alan Johnson, born in all of London, it's not an unreasonable possibility. So I paid my 10 pounds. I applied online for a copy of his birth certificate expecting which one of these Alan Johnson's is he. There's only one. In my office in London I have a copy of his birth certificate. Birth certificates in the UK also include a mother's maiden name. If you do online banking, typical security checks, date of birth, mother's maiden name. Not really a very smart idea to be giving all of that information available particularly for the scenario of just wanting to prove that you're over 18 so that you can get a drink. And there are very innovative technologies and I've been working closely with a company in the UK that uses biometrics. It uses biometrics, gives you a token, a card or whatever, or a chip in your phone. It stores a representation of your fingerprint on the chip. It stores the date of birth on the chip. And that's it. If you go to a bar, you put your phone on the card reader. You put your finger on the fingerprint and it goes green light, red light. Over 18 or not. It has to be my finger so I can't give you my phone and you try to enroll. I always have my mobile phone with me because I'm sad like that. But there's no database. There's no tracking. The only checking that's done is when they issue the token to make sure that my date of birth really is my date of birth. But once I've done that, they have no further knowledge of whether I'm going to the bar every single day or only occasionally or hardly ever. So in that particular case, it's stored on an NFC near field communication chip which could either be on a plastic card. So if you're travelling in London, you get an oyster card and it's on that. The newest generation of smartphones also have NFC chips on them. But obviously that's really expensive cutting edge.  So it's not on the phone, it's not in the phone, it's physically on the phone or on the phone's case. But as you see, it has data birth, a code for your fingerprint, a little bit of technical detail about who issued it and that's all. Nothing about your name, nothing about your address because they don't need it. They just need to know is today's date over 18 years after your date of birth or not? Because people need, people without documentation mostly illiterate need something. So although having a central database may not really be ideal, but you feel biometric registration has a role to play, especially because when we saw and I saw some of the involvement procedures in Rural Maharashtra, people were giving wrong information that was unregistered as is. Like the same family, half of them were below power to nine, half of them were above power to nine. Some kind of recognition for that person. So far people have been using election cards, the local voting cards. Do you feel biometric registration, local registration has a role to play? Okay, so there's a couple of different things going on. So the first one is simply that all the UID does is it gives you a number. With a bit of checking possibly if you have documentation and de-duplication. For higher up in the pyramid there will be some checking. So effectively, and so then there's the question of whether the de-duplication actually works, which is both a technical question about whether the technical mechanisms for de-duplication actually work, but it also has a process question because let's say that I have enrolled more than once. Let's say that the system under two names and let's say that the system spits it out and says we've already seen this fingerprint and iris for John Smith and now they're claiming Edgar Whitley. You still need to have a process that makes sure that that application is rejected. So if I want to be a criminal and I want to get lots of UIDs for multiple UIDs for my friends, I just have to address that point of weakness. That somewhere the system will say don't issue a UID because they're already registered. Probably there will be a no actually this is unique override. If you can address that weakness in the system then I can give you three, four but they'll all be linked to your biometric. So it doesn't actually... Now I expect that UID is making sure that the people who have the ability to override and to reject aren't subject to the kinds of interference but that's a very serious risk. The second question or the second part of your question was about whether or not biometrics are needed and this is I think an area where the Indian case does reveal a very interesting feature. If you have no other documentation then a way of linking the number back to the person does potentially become an important, valuable issue. I can't go along and say look, look all over YouTube, you can find images of me that will give you confidence that it's the same person. You can't do that kind of capability if they have no or effectively no documentation. But then the next practical question comes how are you going to do that... Assuming that that's what you want how are you going to do that biometric verification? If you've had problems enrolling the person if it's a bright sunny day and you're trying to do iris biometric and you've bought an iris scanner and looked it out to the field and you've got the power supply the actual rechecking the biometric back against the person is a non-trivial task. It requires skilled staff. It requires good conditions. One of the reasons why iris biometrics have a flaky performance in modern airports is because modern airports are designed by architects and architects like light and bright open spaces. Iris recognition things want very controlled lighting arrangements. So you're going to always have practical problems so there's the de-duplication element which is a technical question and a process question to make sure it actually works and of course you've got a scale problem in India where you're talking about a billion. In the UK the inventor of iris biometric technologies so there's a certain element of bias there argued that in the UK just using fingerprints would cause lots of problems after about three or four million enrollments in that the five million fingerprint would pick up too many, it might be x, it might be y or it might be z that you'd have to have a manual process to make sure that it wasn't x, y or z. Now that clearly won't be the people who are doing crime scene fingerprints you'll have to be somebody else, more people. So he was... And he was saying that that would kick in a very low number relatively low, a few million people in the UK because fingerprints are not designed to be distinctive enough for de-duplication over that scale and lo and behold he advocated iris biometrics as being much more reliable although if you are the one billionth or the 600 millionth which is the current figure that they're aiming for person you are checking that against 599,999,999 other irises because you have to make sure that nobody previously has been done and that computationally is going to be quite significant and it gets worse the more you enroll and even then all you've done is we're pretty sure that this iris belongs to somebody within our borders officially a resident and we've given them a unique number you've still got the... and now they come along six months, six years later claiming that they have this particular number and wants to prove using their biometric that it is the same person and that's going to be horribly complicated what happens if they claim to be something and the system doesn't work or is too bright and sunny that day or there's connection problems do you err on the side of the individual or do you say no, the system hasn't said yes you are that person therefore you don't get benefits, come back tomorrow and we'll deal with you at that point the perception that the whole movement is that it also argues that there is a need for everything cards are being formed and the opportunity of person being wrong in fact one of the major plans on which biometrics in writing cards is being posed for example is that why can't you use a cheaper version of smart cards why can't you use a cheaper version of smart cards which can allow mobility to a limited extent I think I just want to build on one point which I've mentioned about biometrics the English experience does not convey the complete picture regarding the validity of biometrics in India you see the biometrics standard committee which talks about standards of the UIDA itself which is headed by the chairman of the NIC he basically said I don't know he said I don't know anything about iris because I don't have even one iota of data to depend upon to make messes iris for fingerprints he said I have no idea how this works 100 crore the maximum you have is the USAID program and that has problems but if I grow it up to 100 crore I have absolutely no idea what happened then they understand that the biometrics standard committee did a study I'll get the image the biometrics standard committee did a study of 25,000 people from the global areas of the IPHAR they said 25,000 people against 2,550,000 fingerprints they did not try this just for example 25,000 people they said that 2,5% did not have biometrics they thought it was a job another 3% they found that the biometrics would go independently up by another 3% if the software did not tune the problem even further they said women who had many on their hands simply could not be enrolled women who put many of loss of year in their mess on their hands simply could not be enrolled leave alone for 10 states now whole lot of these problems were pointed out by the biometrics standard committee then you have the proof of concept then they that's the economic tax enterprise future ULEI without any external without it's completely internal you don't know how how much those are they are giving us 93.5% accuracy after allowing for 3 tries of biometrics after allowing for 3 tries of biometrics the average maximum was 93.5% that means 6.5% after allowing for 3 tries that's the figures from the official report the first one is you have this idea of a best finger the one that's most likely to work and then the two best finger up to 3 attempts and we're still only at 99% of a billion people are able to do this now I struggle with billion people but that's 1% of a billion is an awful lot of people who cannot use their 2 best fingers on 3 attempts to prove who they are based on a small scale study 93.5% the first one that's the single best finger one is the single best finger 3 attempts 99% means 1 pro that's a huge sum of it and it's up to 3% 2 best fingers the fundamental issue here is if you are good fingers fingerprints as the fundamental identifying variable in your self-sourced what was the commonest finger one who works with chemicals agents all of the difficulties in authentic individuals I'm not looking at network breakdowns that's simply a different question that's one women with diabetes is another issue finally fingerprints keep changing okay as you grow old fingerprints keep changing particularly with manual workers if you grow older the time period within which fingerprints change come down to something like 1 or 2 years so between 1 or 2 years you have to be in good and in the meantime you may have to be in good condition and this is important because this question cannot be by say oh we have iris because in no pilot setting in no service provision is iris being used as an obstinacy everybody use the fingerprint if you are using the fingerprint as the primary obstinacy instrument of yours then you cannot run away from these kinds of things this is an internal report I take this internal report with a pinch of salt an external lot is likely to be much more much higher than the base okay and this much is for the 15 to 16 crore people that UIDN has already involved okay we don't know how much this will explode this other way it will explode when you reach 100 crore biometrics I think this project will fade under its own days and that will be called the agency of this project UID biometrics I'm pretty sure it's okay I mean and again the interesting flip side of that is if you do have those kinds of problems then potentially you don't bother with the biometric authentication which means that you're straight back to the do we know who you are give us a number that looks like a valid number yes there's somebody with that name that has that number and you've kind of okay and particularly because if you're targeting the individuals without proper documentation you have no other checks than their introducers so potentially it really unravels how do you do this in practice at the level of that's when the really detailed questions become very very important because it's that level of detail what happens if and I think the idea is that they'll tell you which are your two best fingers in case you forget please put one of these two three times still not recognising you look like you're in Edgar just go and do it let's not bother even doing it twice next time so you've got great aspirations that are undermined by the practicalities of daily operation the RBI is giving you an issue that is certain that no sorry even if the person who is your partner please go and check his address manually don't open an account without doing that because opening a bank account has a particular level of risk and they have taken a risk assessment that says the level of guarantee for self reported slash verified enrollment data is insufficient to address that particular risk which is perfectly understandable similar where we did when that project goes down and the older it's been self-contented to some local management who are the third party of their editor we go to they'll come and do the photograph simple algorithm which are made you get a card which has a female photograph for some reason so we have already had that on top we had the Span card at our section of people who are employed in the sunny government government they have this Span card so there is already a particular number of set up data authority they have this why can't we do that to an extent to build a mid-level kind of headache program and third question is why are the governments so much insisting before they have a card in hand why don't bringing the private banks and who use that platform for providing the service because the simple thing is the card is not ready why should we allow private organizations first being in government by cutting on street to the visit and most certainly most things and last thing is so otherwise I will lose track the question was why is the government planning I can't answer I am just giving you some UK experience and last question going back to the slide how telecom can leverage for example in India the mess is kind of you go to buy a new sim card the moment you get it you start using from second day onwards you start getting telecollar from that moment and then it's almost on the user and then for this way I would not like to get any calls so do you think there is an infringement happening from the first word of the word already that number same thing can be applied here yeah so the opt-in versus opt-out which is essentially the sim number issue is a really if you've read Nudge by Thaler and Sunstein is a very interesting one because any system has a default they talk about whether you put healthy food at the front if you've got a big belly you really have to reach to grab the unhealthy food whether you put people into a pension saving scheme by default and then they can choose it so thinking about default values is very very important so somebody chose whether the default value when you get a new sim is that you opt-in to receiving marketing messages or you opt-out it would appear that the decision was that you have to opt out which means that the numbers are freely available that was probably a commercial decision with lots of lobbying from the phone providers saying this is a way that we can increase our revenue stream we know that hardly anybody bothers to change their mind nobody's going to say I'm going to go onto that website and tick the box that says I want to receive it but that question about decision choice is one that really should be informing the design of any kind of thing so do you by default do this or do you by default not do that that's a very very important one and my ultimate goal is that people have at least I cared less about whether you opt-in or opt-out than whether or not you had a proper reflection on it and if it's a government policy that there's been transparency as to who's been lobbying and influencing that so I'm much more personally I'm much more interested in the decision process by which that decision was made then particularly whether it was one way or the other because I have a suspicion that if they're exposed and properly done they tend to be more in favour of the citizen back to the question of federation centralised realistically I expect but I don't know if there's any details of this the look up database that will provide the yes no answers will be more than one single database I would expect it will be state based just as a logical practicality and if so if you are here you will check this state's database first if it doesn't find you there not find you with wrong data it doesn't find you because you're visiting from somewhere else then it will ping around possibly to places where there's migration patterns or whatever so I expect that they will be federated in that sense which means that you have less data in any one particular database but then again immediately the scale of India means that you've still got millions of records even in one particular state and then there was another question in the middle your question too which I've forgotten the second question oh yes so I suspect there's probably a few different things going on at the same time if the UK is anything to go by the first one is as it were private concerns about the quality of data in different government databases so in the UK in order to get benefits and to pay tax you have to have a national insurance number there are I think the figure is something like 60 million national insurance numbers or 40 million working people now a little bit of that can be allowed for because if you are the widow of somebody their national insurance number still has to be kept live because you're still receiving the benefit that they earned but not the kind of number so the national insurance database is known to stink it's just not good enough quality data that means that other government departments that perhaps want to have relatively secure data are not think it's easier to start from scratch than to copy somebody's database and then weed out what the UK proposals are doing at the moment is actually something slightly different which is using your existence in those different databases as a way of giving confidence so if my mobile phone company wants to do an increased check on me it might check whether I have a national insurance number and it might check whether I have a voter electoral role number and it might check but it knows that it's never going to be perfect but if three good departments and one OK department all know about me they're probably happy so I suspect there's probably an element of inter-departmental politics going on why should we give our data to you so the reason it's in the UK you actually have a tax number and a national insurance number the reason why you have two different numbers is that the tax department was not prepared to pay for the lookup service from the national insurance numbers it was not prepared to go along and say here's a national insurance number is this Edgar Whitley we'll just go at our own number so you get the real politic of dirty data departmental squabbles and possibly also a this is visionary, this is forward thinking we're using the state of the art and technology we are developing and doing something that nobody else in the world is doing so I suspect there's a number of different things going on that make let's use an existing database but it's your existing database or your existing database makes it very problematic for that to happen I wouldn't copy the unless I knew that somebody else's database was really good in which case realistically this problem would never arise because everybody would just rely on the voter database or the tax database or the education database or whatever it was but I don't think you'd ever be in that situation so I wouldn't use somebody else's database I would check against everybody else's database but that only applies for the top two thirds of that pyramid it doesn't work for the people who are not documented for the people who've been given a voter ID card because it's got a female face and whatever because again this is where the scale of India and the poverty of large parts of India just become such an overwhelming factor to the whole process and to identify they usually go in terms of but there exists a partial practice of identifying people because I know I don't know because I don't know because it may have the social networks of will and it's not surprising that I mean people out there have used and developed models of that in an internet that must be in practice most of the peaks will be used but the people at large so why should the government look at those distributed identity practices as a model of identity because they are not led and they are trustworthy but along with such a large I suspect that if you are a government doing this for because it were high integrity transactions then the risks associated with that because you have no enforcement mechanisms are too high for it would be interesting but astonishing if you know someone who knows someone therefore you get a British passport to process where to work because the opportunity to game the system if you are a trusted introducer into that network such that anyone that you introduce gets a British passport the opportunities for you to be paid millions and millions of rupees to introduce non-friends becomes certainly a moral dilemma that you would face so at that level there is a very practical gaming of the system concern which I suspect is why governments are not rushing to adopt it what you do find is very interesting social practices so we were studying a website where criminals exchange details about phishing attacks and credit card details that they had obtained and botnets for attacking and etc etc there the circle of trust really works but they have really sophisticated measures for making sure that you are completely trusted and I suspect that if you turn out to be untrustworthy the penalties are going to be far more severe than a state government would be allowed to do on a wide scale so the model is very interesting the elements of that have already existed so for the British passport application you had to get the photo signed off by a clergyman, a teacher a civil servant or whatever but they don't just rely on that they also rely on these other kinds of checks so I suspect it will be part of that process and we do rely on that we do trust recommendations from people that we trust and the people we know so if Ram says this is a really good book to read so it does work but if you were to say this is someone who you should lend £10,000 to I promise they will repay from Mumbai by the way I might not be coming to London for a few more years and don't need to visit LSE at that time I might be a little bit more skeptical even though I would trust him on books to read people to meet so it's that but it does force that what is the really the level of assurance that you require what kinds of things would you trust them absolutely probably little bit wary but if everything else so it's that broader way of looking but I suspect that is that level of trust that's required or level of assurance that's required that ultimately becomes too much of a risk for governments to do at any kind of scale in fact they rely on quite a lot with the introducers we have this introducer idea the problem is that it's been gained and it's been gained so badly that it's one of the strike marks against you idea the Omen Institute just said this process is completely out of control because it shouldn't be out of control the reason why the UK cars was created in 2010 the basic is that the parties that came into power were against the idea of cars being this what do you think to what extent the arguments of the LCI and the project were considering the policy deliberation was discussed in the parliament well we know from the conversations we had with politicians of both political parties of both opposition parties we know that they were listening I can give you examples where MPs say I'm not making these statements myself I'm relying heavily on the LSE report so the political drive of the two opposition parties was certainly helped by having it's always helpful to have academic research that stands up and supports your argument I think the political fight the attacking of LSE got awareness of the issues raised to a greater level I think government losing the child benefit discs raised awareness so I was kind of expecting when the benefit discs were lost in a day or two I'd write an opinion piece saying and you do realize that the government said that they would keep your identity data secure and we warned that it would be a problem but no within three hours the press was already recognizing that there would be very practical ID cards so the president had got it if Labour had won the election and the ID card scheme had then actually continued to roll out I think then the question of the biometrics and the practicalities would have got to the situation where political upset from ordinary citizens would have increased and it would have become increasingly unpopular and people would be writing to their MP saying why am I being expected to present my fingerprints like a common criminal just to order to do X, Y or Z because fingerprinting has a very strong connotation with criminals in the UK as opposed to using it for voter registration or whatever which happens in other locations so we were expecting a longer fight with all of these kinds of concerns becoming greater such that somebody would just say let's just get rid of all of these we've got so many niggles, so many security breaches, so many people not being happy so many letters from our constituents so little buying from the banks because there's not enough people using it that is not actually etc etc that let's just quietly kill it off that's what we were expecting would have been the most likely scenario the fact that both opposition parties agreed and won and did it sped it up to a PhD student whose PhD was on the role of biometrics and he was finishing off just as the election happens so his PhD is all talking about the problems of the explanation and the examiners of his PhD said there's very little in the thesis that would expect it to have stopped for these completely independent not completely independent but from these basically straightforward politics rather as in the party supporting it got voted out of power rather than these kinds of issues that you've been warning that will be problematic over time I'm rambling, I'll stop I'll just say that you know the LSE identity project report is yet to have a strong influence on either general single reports on EYD project or other academic forms of PGM on EYD project I think it's a serious Latina I suppose in the Indian discourse on our hub that the LSE identity project report has not received the attention that it deserves in the whole discussion in that sense that's one reason why some of us decided to interview in an interview in front line in the cover I must thank Edgar for coming giving us this wonderful fascinating lecture on identity based infrastructures and from a societal point of view not just looking at it from a technical point of view but also from a societal point of view I think the lessons learned from the UK experience are central to understanding and analyzing the other project we need to get the earlier the administrators realized it the better for them because they'll probably identify the error earlier than later thank you


Hello, Mr. London. Yeah, that's okay. He followed here from the last two thousand and five. In 2011, he joined the Argentina team as tech writer. He then moved to the other team and now has found his calling as the new event manager. He's going to talk about quantum and how we made it fast. Thank you. Thank you. Do you hear me? Yes. Okay. Today, I'm here to speak about something I'm really excited about. That was a big achievement that we did last year at Mosea, and we are quite proud of it. It's about Firefox Quantum. So as Alex said, I'm Jean-Yves Perrier, part of Developer Outreach. I have a Twitter account too. The story begins by looking at processors. So processors for about 40 years were just doubling their speed every two or three years. It was more low. Lately, high-end processors still seem to continue more or less at this very same speed, but more and more, the processors that you have doesn't double their performance every three years anymore because you want cheaper processors, or sometimes also your processors are on your phone, and you don't want to have a high-end processor that will just drain you by three and five minutes. So performance on computers is no more driven only by having more performance CPU, but by having more cores and by having more concurrency. At the same time, what we are doing with browser has changed. If we go back in the early 2000, what we wanted for our website was, okay, we want a few images, we want text with a nice color, maybe a flame logo somewhere, but that's more or less all what we wanted. Today, it's not the case. What we want today is to have 60 frames per second videos in high resolution, and we want this to run in a virtual reality environment, that means on both of your eyes, with your phone used in the car box. So that's not exactly the same thing that we want from a browser, and at the same time, the CPU has not just given us the power in one go to increase what the browser is doing. There are very old pieces of programs. Firefox, from Netscape, and the Moziaco base has been open 20 years ago, and if we look here at the robots that we use for the launch of Firefox 3, it's a friendly robot, but I'm not sure, and we were not sure that this robot is suitable for the 21st century and for virtual reality. It's a nice, friendly one, but is it capable to do all what we want to? So we decided a few years ago to think again about it and to design something eventually new. First, I would like a little bit to come back to some how a browser is working. So we have the rendering engine, and the rendering engine is a very complex piece of software. The browser looks simple from the outside, but in fact inside is something very complex. We start by having to download everything from the network, HTML, CSS, JavaScript, with all the problems that the network can have, latency, and so on. So that means caching, dealing with stuff like this. Once we have the files in totality or in partiality, we have in fact to read and understand this file, so we have a parser that in fact will create an internal tree that will have all the nodes and how they should be displayed. So this is a DOM tree. From this, we have to apply the CSS. And for the CSS, we have to know the structure of the DOM, but also the cascade and to know to define what properties will be applied to each of the nodes of the tree, which is what the style engine is doing. Then we download also images and other live content. And when this plus what's come out from the style engine, we can in fact put the boxes on the screen or define where they should go on the screen because then we have all the height, weight, width, and so on of the different elements. But that's not all from this, then we have to paint. Apply the right filters, I write the right colors on the different elements. And finally, we have to take all these elements that we have all over the place and hide what is behind and only display what is in the front. And then we go and display on the page. And this loop here, we have to do it 60 times per second. Because each time you use JavaScript, it can modify the DOM and we have to recalculate all the things. So that's a key point that the browser and the rendering engine is doing. And doing this 60 times per second in such an evidence is a hard problem. So several years ago, Mozilla decided that to tackle this problem and especially to tackle this problem with a large set of engineers, we need two things. We need to have a test browser where we can experiment new algorithm. We created several, that is an experimental browser, several things here. First, it's written in Rust. Rust is a new language that has been designed to have less problems than C++, especially when you have a large set of developers working on it and volunteers, non-volunteers, and so on. So that means that we need something robust. It's also designed to test everything around that has massive parallelism. We see we have more cores, but we don't have more CPU power. So parallelism is a key in our opinion for the future of the web. And also it's a rendering engine. So we didn't put a significant UI. It's not a replacement for Firefox. And the last and most important thing, it's a test engine so we can break the web. And this is important because we cannot test thing with all the details. This will be too long to test an algorithm if it will have to work in all cases. But by breaking the web, we can validate if this algorithm is valuable to go further or not. At the beginning of last year, we decided it's time now to bring a lot of things that we have learned over the last five or six years with these projects. And to put it into Firefox and this was project content. We wanted to solve stability problem, Firefox was crashing too much. We wanted a new shiny theme and we wanted it to be extremely responsive. Project Quantum was divided in several projects and the first of them was the compositor. So the compositor is the last bit of element where we put all the layers together. And this is something that other program also do, especially operating systems and games, and in fact GPU are optimized to do this kind of operation. So we decided to offload to GPU the task of compositor, to the GPU, to the task of compositing the page, and we did this in 2016 already. And in fact, we noticed that a good deal of crashes that we have on Windows were caused by this because there are bugs in graphic drivers and that was making the browser crash. Was especially important on Windows and Linux and not on Mac because Mac has only a few graphic cards and better drivers. So the idea here was to isolate the compositor in its own process. So the process of the compositor may crash but not the whole browser. It's not perfect but it's better and then of course to blacklist bad drivers. Second thing that we were doing is to import from Stylo from several the new CSS style engine that is called Stylo. So style engine is basically, sorry, taking a file. And for each of the declarations in the file sort them by specificity and calculate which one goes to which box. This is something that you have to do for every node. So theoretically, it's something that is not easy but prone to be easily parallelized. One processor for node will be the perfect case and we can do this. So several test cases with Stylo and it's not that easy because you have to be sure that each of the threads that you are using in fact has the same load. So thread has to steal task from the other when they are empty and so on. Because of course you have maybe three, four, five cores and not as many as you have of node on a page that can be in the thousands. I want to thank my colleague, Lynn Clark here, who just made this amazing drawing and really sucks at drawing. And she also wrote several blog posts on the hacks.modia.org explaining all this. And these are really, really good posts if you want to learn more about this. Another thing that we added with Stylo is a style sharing cache that we took from Chromium and WebKit and we changed it a little bit because it was a bit old in the fact that it wasn't taking enough care about pseudo classes. So it wasn't as efficient anymore. So we changed it and make it more efficient and we were able to continue to use it. We keep something from Firefox like the rule tree and we put all this together and we had a brand new style engine much more efficient. The second set of problems are set of problems that come around not having the browser blocking, doing nothing, having the on mark, it's a beach ball of death. You don't want the browser to freeze. And most of the freeze on the browser come by having too many things on the main thread. So the main thread is what has to run 60 times per second. But of course, when you run this loop with JavaScript, you are not sure that the JavaScript will be short enough so that it stops in 60 times per second, it's a few milliseconds. So you're not sure that this will work. So we have to take everything out of the main thread that we can take out. The first thing that we already spoke about is the compositor. The compositor can be taken outside. The video decoding is no more done on the main thread. Plugins are gone, but it was the same. We have other worker and so on. So the idea here is how to optimize this to run in a few milliseconds maximum. The project that took care about this was called quantum flow. And the key point here is we decided to approach performance in Firefox as a system. Instead of optimizing stylo, the style engine, the different part, we have to consider the whole system so there is no bottleneck. We measure a lot of things, and after we did a change, we measure again to be sure that it has the impact we wanted. And Asian blog posts really, really went through all the details. There are 28 of them, which means 40 weeks more or less, that explain all the details that has been done. And he coined the expression death by a million cuts. We had bugs where we had to fix five, 10 other bugs so that we win the times we wanted. And in fact, each of them individual are not really noticeable, but all together because it's a system had a big impact. A few examples here of what we fixed, we wanted to have better scrolling. So when you scroll, you don't want, especially on a phone, you don't want suddenly the scrolling to stop for two seconds while we load the rest of the page and then continue. Because, oh, it stopped, you remove this, it's a bad experience. So what Apple did several years ago is when there is nothing to display anymore, it was displaying a checkerboard that, in fact, you slow down when the checkerboard appears instead of completely stopping. It's a much better user interface. And we applied this on Android, but also on the desktop and on all kinds of scrolling. So it works for the touch interface, but it works also when you scroll with a keyboard or the mouse. There is a limitation. It doesn't work for horizontal scrolling, but this is pretty rare still now on it. Another big thing is, okay, synchronous IPC. So we have several thread, several processes. And communication between the processes are sometimes synchronous and sometimes asynchronous. And when they are synchronous, in fact, the main thread is just waiting for the answer, not doing anything. So we have to fight this. It's obvious that we had the same problem here when accessing the hard drive or the disk. It's very slow. So we have no more access to the disk from there for a long time, but we had to do the same with communication with process. And for weeks and weeks, we have every week looking at what was the most offender in this synchronous communication. And little by little, they went down. And one of the big offender was cookie writers. So we completely rewrote the way we write cookie to the disk so that it's asynchronous. It was two engineers for several months, I think, five or six months until it was rewritten. And in fact, it's removed a good chunk of the problem.  So they log a lot of things with cookies. This was making a big difference. We changed also some algorithm. Not necessarily the complexity of the algorithm, but also the locality. The same algorithm written differently hits the cache more often and is more efficient in today's web pages. And we work also a lot on the garbage collection. Garbage collection was halting the browser, especially during videos. So we make it generational and also more incremental. That means that only the latest things are checked, and we can stop it and start it later. So there is always a budget. This makes also a lot of video reading much smoother. We remove most of the timers because they are fired at bad moments. We replace them with a callback when the browser is idle. We redesign the UI. I will not go in detail here because we have a talk about this later. And finally, we got a new browser. Still a robot. We like robots. But it looks a little bit different nowadays. But we didn't stop this. We launched this new quantum in November. And last week, we launched 58, the next version. And we have done already more things. We have done off-main thread painting. So we have a big project to make painting extremely efficient in the future. But this project will not work all the time. So we remove some parts of the main thread activity about painting already now so that if you cannot choose the GPU for it in the future, it will be already better. We also know throttle background tabs. It's a difficult activity because you cannot throttle or pose every background tabs. Because if you are listening music in the background tabs, you want to continue to listen to music. So here we are mostly defensive. We experiment. And we try. There is a page on MDN that explains what we are throttling in fact. And there are more to come. So we have a long tail of improvement here to do. So the quantum flow project is not finished. The synchronous inter-process communication will continue. We have an exciting project coming out hopefully later this year, which is quantum render, web render, where in fact the painting will be done by the GPU, which is in fact rewriting a big set of Firefox in Rust again and changing this as we did with TIDO. And this has a big impact prototype that are really promising. Once also, I saw people speaking about specific process for web extensions. So web extension will not have a bad impact on the browser or stricter JavaScript budgets so that tabs have two milliseconds or three milliseconds for the JavaScript and then stop it and go to the next. So Firefox Quantum is not the end. It's not the end of a project. It's in fact the beginning of a new era where we can build again on the browser to have more feature and more performance. And performance is part now of our daily life to measure it and so on. Thank you. You can help us install Firefox Nightly and report bugs. Spread the word about using Firefox. Test in Firefox if you are doing website, please. That's way we can keep our users. And also, stay informed. Follow Firefox Nightly, for example, on Twitter. It tweets every big landing that comes a few weeks ahead. Thank you.


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that shape. When you see that shape, you see from the side, the shoulders now past the line of the bar. It's not a case of him being behind the bar on his feet just in front. So we have to get there. So rather than being on shoulders behind the bar and being around your heart in the middle of a few pieces of that. We want to be going through past the bar. When we go past the bar, at that point when you hit that and say that as a strong long water, is now your shoulder much your feet to the floor is then timing you start moving backwards slightly and then it's like bang fall and they all get pulled chest, the strength of the bar is like your key mark of where you get to but transition and tech algo so that'll barely anybody if you get higher


Welcome back to our lecture series Math 12-10, Calculus I for students at Southern Utah University. As usual, I'll be a professor today, Dr. Andrew Misseldine. Lecture 20, we're going to continue to talk about some so-called shortcuts in terms of calculating derivatives of functions. Much like in the previous lecture number 19, we learned about the power rule which we can use to compute the derivatives of power functions. In lecture 20, we're going to talk about the product and quotient rules. This video will focus on the product rule, and the next video in lecture 20 will have to do with the quotient rule. So let's first talk about why there is a need for product rule. That is to say, in the previous lecture, we learned about a sum and difference rules that if you want to take the, if you have a sum of two functions, you know, f of x plus g of x, and you take their derivative, then it turns out just be f prime of x plus g prime of x. And this follows from basically limit properties. That is the derivative of a sum is a sum of derivatives. Why does that not work for products? Well, we'll see that in this example right here. So consider the function f of x and g of x. f of x is given as two x plus three, and g of x is given as three x squared. If we take the derivative of f by the rules we've learned previously, its derivative will be two, and the derivative of g would be then a six x, again, by the product rule linearity of the derivative. And so if we compute the product of f prime and g prime, this is just gonna look like two times six x, which gives us 12 x. On the other hand, if we actually multiply out f of x by g of x, notice this will give us a two x plus three times a three x squared, for which we can just distribute the three x squared throughout, we end up with a six x cubed plus nine x squared. And so from here, if we calculate the derivative, that is if we take the derivative of f of x times g of x, we're gonna take the derivative of this six x cube plus nine x squared, which again by the power rule and the like, we're gonna end up with an 18 x squared plus an 18 x, for which when you compare that to the 12 x we had before, we can see that's grossly inaccurate. It doesn't give us the correct derivative. So it turns out the derivatives of products are a little bit more complicated than just multiplying the product of the derivatives. So it turns out the correct product rule is gonna be given by the following formula. If f and g are both differentiable functions, then the derivative of f times g will look like the function f times the derivative of g plus the function g times the derivative of f. So the way you look at it, it's a sum of two products. So there's gonna be some two products involved in the product rule. And with each of those products, you have the original function and a derivative, the original function and the derivative. And you look at the two combinations. So you have f and the derivative of g, and then you have g and the derivative of f, like so. That's the product rule. Let's see why that is. Well, in order to prove this formula, we're gonna look at the definition of the derivative as a limit of a difference quotient. But before we do that, let's look at the following algebraic calculation. Just consider the quantity f of t times g of t minus g of x and add to that g of x times f of t minus f of x. This quantity will be important to us in just a second as we look at the difference quotient in consideration here. So let's just consider its simplification. All we know about t and x is there's two separate variables right here.   Now you'll notice there are some like terms going on here. We have an f of t g of x and we have a g of x times f of t. Those are gonna cancel out, giving us simply just an f of t times g of t minus an f of x times g of x. Now I should point out to you that when you talk about the function f times g evaluated at x, that means you take the output of the f function and you times it by the output of the g function. So f of x times g of x is just f times g evaluated at x. Likewise, f of t times g of t is just f times g evaluated at the parameter t like so. So be aware that this quantity right here is equal to this one, just by that algebraic simplification. Now let's go to the difference quotient here. The derivative of f times g evaluated at x here, the derivative with respect to x, this is the limit of the difference quotient.  So this is the version of the derivative that looks more like that slope of a secant land that is we're taking the limit of the secant slopes there. Now you'll notice this thing in the numerator that we see here is exactly this friend right here, f g of t minus f g of x, for which by the computation we did above, we can make this substitution in right here, that becomes this, we get this more expanded numerator. This expanded numerator is gonna be more useful for us in terms of our limit properties. So we do have this plus inside of the numerator, we're gonna break it up into two fractions. So we got the limit as t approaches x of f t, g of t minus g of x all over t minus x plus g of x times f t minus f x over t minus x right here. So we have two different summands inside of the limit. So breaking those into separate pieces, this would give the limit as t approaches x of f of t times g of t minus g of x all over t minus x. And then you're gonna add to it again separately, a separate limit here, the limit as t approaches x of g of x times f of t minus f of x all over t minus x. So limit properties provide that for us. But then when you look at this limit right here, you have a factorization, you have f of t times g t minus g x over t minus x. We can factor this limit into two limits, the limit as t approaches x of f of t and then the limit as t approaches x of g of t minus g of x over t minus x. We're gonna do the same thing for the second limit here as well. We can factor it so that we take the limit of g of x and then we take the limit of f of t minus f of x over t minus x. Why do we do that? Well, when you look at this right here, we have the limit as t approaches x of a difference quotient. This difference quotient is the difference quotient associated to the derivative. And since g is differentiable, this limit will exist and the limit will be g prime of x. This is the derivative. Likewise, this here, we take the limit as t approaches x of f of t minus f of x over t minus x. This is the difference quotient that gives us the derivative of f. And so this will be equal to f prime of x. What about the other two things? Well, this one right here is sort of a curious creature. If you take the limit of g of x as t approaches x, notice g of x doesn't actually depend on t. So as t gets closer and closer and closer and closer to x, who cares? g of x doesn't depend on t. So g of x is constant with respect to t. So as the limit approaches x, g of x will just stay g of x. And so as a constant, you get equal to that one. So the last one I wanna consider is the limit as t approaches x of f of t. This is the most curious of them all because as t approaches x, f of t will change, right? f of t does depend on t. So as you change the input t, that'll change the output f of t. I claim that still is equal to f of x, but for a different reason. The limit as t approaches x of f of t is equal to f of x because f is continuous. A continuous function is exactly those functions for which you can evaluate the function at the value and that'll give you the limit. How do we know that f was t, excuse me, f is continuous?  But aha, as we've seen previously, every differentiable function is necessarily continuous. So since we assumed f is differentiable, we know it's continuous. And so that then gives us the product formula we need right here. So let's look at an example of this. Let's use the product rule to compute the derivative of two x plus three times three x squared prime. This function might look familiar somewhere. This is, these are the functions we were looking at before we proved the product rule. So by the product rule we just saw on the previous slide. Well, let's say that this function here is f and let's say this function right here is g of x. Oh wait, that's what we called them earlier. So by the product rule, the derivative here is gonna equal, remember f of x times g prime of x plus g of x times f prime of x. For which if we calculate these things, we see that f of x is just two x plus three, no big deal there. g prime of x is going to be a six x like we saw previously. You then multiply that by of course g of x which is three x squared. And then you times that by the derivative of f which we previously saw was two. Distribute here, we're gonna get 12 x squared plus 18 x and then the next one's gonna be a six x squared. Combining like terms, we add up to get an 18 x squared plus 18 x, which you'll recall that this right here, 18 x squared plus 18 x, this was equal to the derivative we calculated previously which you remember seeing that right here when we did this example. So this formula does in fact give us the correct derivative of the product. Let's apply the product rule to find the derivative of y equals the square root of x plus three times x squared minus five. So by the product rule, we see that the derivative here of y is gonna look like the first function, the first factor I should say, the square root of x plus three, you're gonna times that by the derivative of the second function and then you're gonna take the first factor. If you don't wanna put in that order, that's okay. You could keep it as the square root of the first fact or square root of x plus three is the first factor. Take its derivative times it by x squared minus five x right here. So the thing is when it comes to multiplication and sums, the order doesn't matter, the operation's commutative. So all that you need is you have to have a fact or you have to have products where in each of the products, you're gonna take one of the derivatives. So if you wanna keep them the same order, that's fine. So you have the first and then the second and then the first and then the second. That's perfectly fine. Just make sure that on one of them, you take the derivative of the second and on the other, you take the derivative of the first factor. If you do that, you're gonna be just fine. So let's compute these derivatives here. Rewrite the first factor, the square root of x plus three. I'm gonna write that as a power function because it'll be more helpful with the algebraic calculations that we're gonna follow. So we get x to the one half plus three. The derivative of x squared minus five x will be a two x minus five. And then for the next one, we have to take the derivative here. The square root of x, remember, is x to the one half power. So we get one half times x to the negative one half power. The derivative of the plus three is zero. The derivative of constant just disappears. And then we get an x squared minus five x, right? So we do wanna combine like terms. So we're gonna have to foil these things out. X to the one half times two x will give us a two x to the three halves. Took the one half power plus the first power. Then we're gonna get a negative five times x to the one half. Now let's multiply by the three. Three times two x gives me a six x. Three times negative five gives us a negative 15. And then for the last one, if we distribute the one half x to the negative one half power, we're gonna end up with one half x to the three halves. Notice I took the second power minus one half. And then lastly, you're gonna get a negative five halves times x to the one half power. One minus a half is one half. So let's combine some like terms if we can. Notice there is x to the three halves that's common. There's also x to the one half that's common. So if we combine those coefficients together, I noticed the biggest power of x turns out to be x to the three halves. So we're gonna have two plus a half, which is five halves, x to the three halves, like so. The next biggest power would then be x, x to the first, for which we have a six x. The next biggest power would be x to the one half, for which we're gonna have a negative five half of negative five minus a negative five halves. So that'll combine together to give me a negative 15 halves. Notice five just became 10 over two there times x to the one half. And then the only other thing we have to accommodate for is the negative 15. In which case, I'm just gonna leave the answer like this. If you wanna turn back into square roots instead of the one half power, that's fine. But this gives us the derivative of our function in this situation using the product rule. As another example, let's find the nth derivative of f of x equals x to the e to the x times e to the x here. So the nth derivative, that's, we wanna find higher derivatives. So let's start off with say like the first derivative, okay? So if we take the first derivative, that should be f prime of x. So we need to take the derivative here using the product rule, which would look like x prime e to the x plus x times e to the x prime. If you take the derivative of x with respect to x, that's gonna give you a one, one times e to the x. As we've also previously seen, if you take the derivative of e to the x, that is itself e to the x. I noticed that both of these factors here, both of these products involve e to the x. I could factor it out, give you e to the x. I'm gonna write it as x plus one times e to the x. This is the x that came from there, and then here's the one that came from there. I wrote it in a slightly different order, but you get x plus one times e to the x. That'd be the first derivative. How about the second derivative? We wanna calculate the second derivative here, f double prime. That's just the derivative of the derivative. So we have to take the derivative of x plus one times e to the x, take that prime. Well, we're gonna use the product rule again. We're gonna get x plus one prime times e to the x plus x plus one times e to the x prime. For which x plus one, if you take its derivative, you're gonna again get a one, right? Times e to the x. And then if you take the derivative of e to the x, like we saw earlier, you're gonna get an e to the x. If we factor out the e to the x, that leaves behind one plus x plus one, which combining the ones together, you're gonna end up with a x plus two times e to the x. So, okay, that's the second derivative. It wants to know the nth derivative. Is there a general pattern we can find here? Well, we're getting close to, let's try the third derivative. I think we will build to use some reasoning to figure out what the next term is gonna be after that. If you take the derivative of x plus two e to the x here, again, using the product rule, we get x plus two times e to the x prime. By the product rule, we're gonna get x plus two prime e to the x plus x plus two times e to the x prime. For which the derivative of x plus two, that's gonna turn out just to be a one, then you get an e to the x. And then the derivative of e to the x is just e to the x again. If we factor out the e to the x, we're gonna end up with a one plus x plus two, which putting that all together, we're gonna end up with x plus three e to the x. And so now we wonder what is the nth derivative of this function right here? What's the pattern? And so zooming out so we can see all of these ones together, let's do it this way, you'll notice x plus one e to the x, x plus two e to the x, x plus three e to the x. I should also mention that sometimes we talk about the zero with derivative, that is if you take the derivative of zero times, that's just the original function. So if you don't ever take any derivatives, that's just the original function. The original function could be written as x plus zero e to the x. And so with this in mind, you notice that the derivative always looks like x plus, the nth derivative should look like x plus n to the e to the x. And where did that come from? Well, the idea here is with the product rule, you're always gonna get what you had before, the x plus something times e to the x. Well, when you take the derivative e to the x, something happens. So you have that x plus whatever you had before. But then when you take the derivative of x plus whatever, you're gonna get a one, so you always get an extra e to the x. And so the number of e to the x as you have seems to increase every single time. So we see that the nth derivative of f right here is gonna look like x plus x.


Hello everyone, I would like to welcome you all to this lecture of today. First, we will look at what we did last time in a very brief manner. Towards the end, I introduced the flaming Tamau oxidation and discussed the oxidation of carbon silicon bond to the corresponding carbon OH bond, where we discussed the mechanism of the flaming condition based oxidation. So what we had discussed last time was that if one has a substrate of this type where we have a phenyl ring attached and there are two groups which are attached here and of course you have the substrate on which we have say here we put it R1 and this is the if we put it as R2 here and this as R3 then we have the asymmetric center here. And what we discussed was that in the presence of potassium bromide peracetic acid like this and acetic acid as a solvent one can convert the substrate to the corresponding alcohol with the retention of the stereochemistry here. What we did was was proto desylation and we proceeded via the corresponding halide which is present on the silicon where you have the phenyl ring was replaced by X which is like a bromine and then of course we went further. So there was this conversion of this silicon substrate to the corresponding silicon halide substrate and then we did the oxidation with the peracet here. So you had CH3CO3H which underwent somewhat like bare vinegar oxidation type of substrate and finally basic workup followed by protonation led to the corresponding alcohol like this here. So we will see now how this two step process can also be done in a slightly different way and how modifications have been done to get one step or one pot operation. So this two pot operation which I showed where the substrate of this kind was reacted with potassium bromide and peracetic acid. But one can also use somewhat different reagent systems such as HBF4 chloroboric acid or BF3 etherate and acetic acid combination. And these act as source of proton as well as F- as a nucleophile. So instead of getting a what we saw last time instead of getting here instead of getting silicon and bromide what we saw the last time instead of bromide now what you will get is a fluoride because it HBF4 as well as BF3 acetic acid is a source of F-. So instead of getting this bromide one gets fluoride and then one can use in presence of any paracid such as metachloropropylbenzoic acid one can use triethylamine as a base or potassium fluoride as a base. So one can then convert that silicon fluoride based intermediate to the corresponding alcohol similar to the mechanism that we discussed using Bayer-Welliger type of oxidation. Now they also invented a one pot operation here. In the one pot operation what they have done is that they start with the similar substrate of the silicon type and now they use say for example mercury acetate as a reagent in presence of paracetic acid and acetic acid. So or one can also use bromine molecular bromine or potassium bromide and paracetic acid also but it is a one step operation that means the intermediate which is form like this which is going to be say somewhat like this. The electrophile attaches to this particular carbon atom of the aromatic ring and the positive charges formed here. Now it is very clear that this bond has to break and you regain the aromaticity. In the process this silicon is attached by the paracid that one uses say for example here you have CH3, CO3H. So your paracid attacks onto this silicon in the same pot leading to the corresponding intermediate which is expected to undergo the rearrangement of which I termed as Bayer-Welliger type of oxidation. So this is a substrate that one can directly get under these conditions where any electrophile such as mercury plus or Br plus in the acetic acid and paracetic acid medium can directly give this one. So this is an advantage of using a one pot operation rather than isolating but then there are both the options which are present and can be utilized or both the protocols can be utilized. So as I said the electrophile reacts with the benzene and now your nucleophile can directly attack on this one and this particular X is not a halide, not bromide or any other halide not bromide ion or bromine but it is as I explained earlier that directly the electrophile allows the acid the paracid to react to form this substrate and which undergoes oxidation eventually to form the corresponding alcohol. Now what is the evidence for retention of stereochemistry in Tamau Fleming oxidation? The evidence was provided by a set of experiments that Tamau reported. What he did was he started with a silicon containing moiety like this which is a bicyclic bridged molecule in which he had the carbon silicon bond in an exo oriented fashion. Of course there will be substituents as somehow used on silicon like this. Then he carried out the oxidation under his Tamau oxidation condition. Then what he obtained was the exo alcohol which was 100% exo. In a similar fashion reason when he started with another molecule in which the silicon now was endo oriented this particular compound had 95% silicon in endo orientation. This particular molecule led to the formation of the endo product again in 95% indicating that there is 100% retention of the stereochemistry. These set of experiments clearly indicate that there is a retention of stereochemistry in Tamau Fleming oxidation. Now in Tamau oxidation the more reactive flora or flora silanes are used in which silicon is a stronger Lewis acid and shows more metallic character than the substrates used in the Fleming oxidation. So you have a substrate like this which is SiR2X where X is chlorine, fluorine, hydrogen, OR, NR2. These are the substrates, these are the groups which are used on silicon in while carrying out the Tamau type of oxidation which I have not yet discussed in detail but now we will do that. Now further activation by a fluoride ion then leads to a pentavalent intermediate which is able to bind hydrogen peroxide. Now it is something like this if one takes silicon substrate which is having here shown as 3 chlorines but one can also start with only one halogen then the fluoride ion is attached is reactive with which forms a pentavalent intermediate. This is a pentavalent intermediate and then hydrogen peroxide also react with it to form the hexavalent silicate ion. So it is an example of hypervalency. So one can start with a tetravalent silicon going to pentavalent and then to hexavalent silicate ions and then there is a transfer of the high group which is what is supposedly a chiral group if one starts with a chiral substrate to the corresponding oxygen which is attached to the silicon and then there is a loss of OH- and we get an intermediate of this type where oxygen is now attached to the silicon and the R group has been transferred on to the oxygen which is attached to the silicon. Then of course one has the hydrolysis to form the corresponding OH here. So this is the Tamao oxidation in which we have a slightly different requirements as far as the starting material is concerned and of course one uses the fluoride ion. So if we start with a substrate of this kind here for example where the carbon silicon bond has a well-defined stereochemistry that is alpha orientation here with a of course fluoride attached to the silicon and under Tamao conditions which utilizes 30 percent hydrogen peroxide potassium fluoride under basic conditions and using methanol or water as a solvent along with THF then one directly gets the hydroxy compound with the retention of stereochemistry like this. It has been shown that in case when methanol is used as a solvent along with THF then an intermediate of this kind where OR is nothing but O-methyl is obtained as an intermediate or when water THF is used as a solvent system then here OH group has been observed to be present and this particular intermediate them under the same condition leads to the formation of this hydroxy compound indicating that in these Tamao type of oxidations these type of intermediates are first formed. In the case of Fleming type of conditions which is very different from Tamao condition we of course have to have a phenyl group here and we have now a well-defined stereochemistry at this junction where caliber and silicon bond is formed and of course we have another well-defined stereochemistry at the adjacent carbon atom and under acidic conditions when the reaction is carried out there is a retention of stereochemistry of the hydroxy group in the final product. In a similar fashion irrespective of the stereochemistry of this particular carbon carbon bond here if this is alpha oriented then of course irrespective of the stereochemistry of this and this whatever is the stereochemistry of the carbon silicon bond that is what is translated into the final product that means there is again retention of stereochemistry. So looking at these two examples it is very clear that the stereochemistry on the next carbon atom here doesn't have any influence on this stereochemistry of the final product that is in the case of Tamao flaming oxidation there is a retention of stereochemistry in the final product. Now there is a very interesting reaction that we would like to look at it where this particular organosilane compound has been converted into a very useful dihydroxy molecule of this kind which is a useful synthone in organic synthesis. Now this organosilane molecule has been prepared by reacting this hydroxy compound with the chlorosilane of this type under basic condition and then allowed to undergo a thermolysis at 190 degrees whereby this undergoes cleavage as I have shown here to release this alpha beta unsaturated aldehyde and since there is already an olefin present in the molecule this undergoes a heterodeal solder reaction because we can consider this particular part as a heterodyne and since the Diels-Hodder reaction is a unsurted process so this particular heterodil solder reaction leads to the formation of this particular bicyclic molecule with well-defined stereochemistry at the newly generated asymmetric center. Now if we allow this bicyclic molecule in which there is a carbon-silicon bond with a well-defined stereochemistry to undergo Tamau based oxidation under these conditions then carbon-silicon bond which is beta oriented leads to the formation of a carbon hydroxy bond which is also beta oriented that means with the retention of the stereochemistry and this oxygen-silicon bond under these conditions undergoes cleavage leading to the formation of the corresponding diols. That means we have converted this very interesting starter material into a very highly useful dihydroxy compound which is a useful synthone in organic synthesis by utilizing two reactions namely heterodil solder reaction and Tamau oxidation. Now if we take a substrate of this particular type and if it is chiral molecule that means optically pure molecule then under Tamau oxidation conditions we can convert this into the corresponding alcohol which is optically pure because the starter material is optically pure and this particular starter material can be prepared from this olefin which is an aromatic alkene by enangeo selective hydrocylylation a process that has been described in this particular paper. Now we have substrates of this type alkenyl silanes which can under neutral or basic conditions which employ something like this you have in neutral conditions hydrogen peroxide then this KHF2 then you have DMF at room temperature to 60 degrees then you have a basic conditions in the which you use potassium bicarbonate and methanol at 60 degrees under these conditions when a substrate of this type which has one hydrogen present here leads to the corresponding aldehyde that means under these conditions what is form is something of this type so this total alkenyl group is transfer to the oxygen and then of course you get an OH and which is nothing but an aldehyde because this will come here and this will come here and it will form the corresponding aldehyde but under the acidic conditions if one takes hydrogen peroxide acidic anhydride KHF2 which is now an acidic condition in these acidic conditions one then gets the corresponding acid. So what is observed is that if the substituents are like this on the silicon then what is founded if just two equivalents of oxidant are used two equivalents of oxidant are used on compounds with this type of substituents on silicon under acidic conditions then only carboxylic acids are observed to be formed. It indicates that alkenyl carbon silicon bond migrates preferentially so this is the migration this is the alkenyl silicon bond that migrates to the oxygen of the oxidizing agent like hydrogen peroxide then that forms an intermediate of this kind here the methyl silicon bond is not transferred or does not migrate when the acid is used here the hydrolysis will give the aldehyde by the same way as the earlier and that forms the corresponding aldehyde which again reacts with the oxidant to form like parasitic acid or hydrogen peroxide is added in this one gets the oxidation to the corresponding acid. So basically it indicates that under acidic conditions you have a slightly different where you have the acidic anhydride that is used that leads to the pero acid here and this is what the pero acid is and that undergoes oxidation of this type to form the acid. So this alkenyl silanes are utilized to get to the corresponding aldehydes or to the acids but of course if one starts with a substrate in which the there are two substitutions here this was mono substituted and if it is a disubstituted then obviously you will get the alcohol coming like this where carbon silicon bond is replaced by the the carbon silicon bond is replaced by the carbon oxygen bond and that leads to the corresponding diketone. So under these conditions it does not matter what conditions are used whether acidic neutral or basic you can only get the corresponding ketone. On the other hand when the substrate is mono substituted mono substituted in the sense that only one substituent is present as R here there are two substituents present of course silicon will be common in both the cases. So in the case when there is a mono substitution one can get the possibility of getting the corresponding acid if the acidic conditions are used. So we will stop it at this stage today's lecture and we will take up other oxidations in the next class. So what I discussed today was basically this somehow flaming oxidations mechanisms and their applications in different types of conversions where you can convert an enantioselective carbon silicon bond or chiral chirabin silicon bond to the corresponding chiral OH bond and therefore you have a possibility of generating chiral molecules without any problem if you have a possibility of making the chiral carbon silicon substrates. So you can go ahead and read the references that I gave or the material that I discussed carefully and we will take up the other oxidations next time. Thank you.