just to welcome you all first of all for coming along this evening and I suppose the very real threat of climate change that the real challenge we face was perhaps put in a starkest form yet by Sir David Attenborough at that UN climate change summit in Poland last December when he warned that the collapse of civilization and the natural world was facing us if we don't do something he said we're facing a man-made disaster of global scale our greatest threat in thousands of years if you fast forward then what three months later and you had that incredible sight of thousands of our secondary school students on the streets of our country protesting at the lack of action on climate change urgent our government to do more indeed there were I believe 37 rallies in the country on that particular day including a very well attended one here in Sligo and so we have the experienced and maybe the not-so-experienced the younger calling out for action and sounding the warning shots so I suppose one of the questions we want to address this evening is whether those warning shots are being heated or not and we're here this evening to discuss and debate how the agriculture industry in this country is responding or not indeed to the crisis and indeed what they need to do and what needs to be done to help them bearing in mind the importance of agriculture regionally and nationally and the fact that the agriculture industry accounts for over 30% of our greenhouse gas emissions and I'm delighted to welcome our panel here the senior experts should emphasize that this is very much audience participation we would like and we will be taking your questions very very shortly so have them ready if you can at all our panel this evening to my left outgoing MEP Marion Harkin a former Sligo-Eletrum TD and MEP for the past 15 years who announced last month that she wouldn't be seeking reelection leading to all sorts of local political consternation as the water of political future might be it's fair to say Martin I think isn't it yeah Thomas Cooney Thomas Cooney is chairman of the IFA's National Environment Committee and the leader of the IFA smart farming program which aims along with the EPA the environmental protection agency to improve returns in the industry while reducing emissions Dr. Pippa Hackett joins us as well she's the Green Party spokesperson on agriculture and interestingly Pippa was telling us that she lives on a mixed organic farm it's not right and which keeps up her cows sheep hens and horses and she's from Mayo originally as well and Deputy Mark and Kenny Sligo Eletrum Sinn Fein deputy the party spokesperson in agriculture also a member of the joint erotic community in agriculture and as far as I know he doesn't have any sheep or hens maybe I'm wrong okay welcome to you all and I should mention to put it into context as Donald referred to the event being facilitated by the Institute of International and European Affairs which is one in a series of regional events they held they hold as part of the Institute's future of the EU 27 project which is supported by the Department of Foreign Affairs and trade and we'll get straight down to it as I say we'll be coming to the audience very shortly for questions Marion yourself and you were telling me you're just literally off the plane from the Brussels of Strasbourg this week in Dublin or you're in Dublin okay morning I was doing some work you're you're an MEP for the last 15 years have you not just you have the MEP is done enough do you think to address the climate change issue in your time or is it now only dawning on your wall now that there's an election in the offering just how serious the problem is well I think the answer to that Nile is yes and no yes in the sense that if you look at our emissions reduction target we're on track as an EU to meet those reduction targets by 2020 and we have all the required legislation in place now to meet them by 2030 we've also met all of our conditionalities under Kyoto both the first and and the second set of requirements and the EU is responsible for about 10% of emissions globally and we have among the lowest per capita emissions of all developed nations we have a lot I won't go into detail but we have a lot of legislation around transport and finally in February of this year we were able to get agreement on emissions for heavy goods vehicles we already have them in place for cars fans all that kind of thing the reason and there's and you're talking from a European point of view not from the Irish MEP I could give you lists and lists of legislation to underpin some of the progress we've made however the no-bit to your question comes you spoke about David Attenborough well we had a question tonberg yeah she addressed the environmental committee in the parliament and if anybody hasn't heard her yeah I would suggest you listen to her because whether it's the way she says it and or what she will she'll kill you because she literally looked people in the eye and accused them of stealing the future of her generation I remember you telling us on this issue last week that she she frightened the daylight said she did yeah because she said you did not act in time she said you didn't look to the science for the answers because you knew you wouldn't get the answers you were looking for because you wanted to continue as you have done and for a young girl I mean she's extraordinarily articulate and she's very dead pan and she says things like is my microphone on can you hear me and I mean you think you know but just the way she spoke her certainty and her accusation that we have stolen their future all right so we've heard a little bit about what the EU is doing what about the Irish MEP because the Irish Times were left less than praiseworthy of you not just you but of the Irish MEPs in general saying that and you were akin to showing shocking apathy towards lack of you know and you're addressing the the climate change issue well you don't accept that well and in fact apparently it's the shin for enemy P's who are making hands yeah well I I sent a letter to the Irish Times responding to it and because climate action network our group and they've done an assessment of this I think to be fair it's incomplete somewhat but it did say that the three independent MEPs together had the best score and Sinn Fein were just behind us on that some of the other parties had very low scores as far as their assessment was concerned I'm not going to comment on the validity otherwise of it but annoyed me was that the Irish Times never even mentioned the independence they mentioned everybody it's in fact the three of us had together the highest score but that's I said we don't deserve any gold stars we're still well behind what we should okay Thomas Cooney you're welcome as I said at the outset Thomas the agriculture industry accounting for 30% of our greenhouse gas emissions single largest contributor to Ireland's emissions what what our farmers and the agriculture industry doing about this yeah well to date we have we have over 40,000 farmers in the last scheme in just the green low-carbon agri scheme and we have we have over 50 farms per year partaking in the smart family initiative and they are spreading yeah and you're directly involved in that yeah yeah and they are interacting with discussion groups and everything so there's another thousand farmers those farmers in the smart family initiative and I see travel bowling down there is one of them down in the room there is it there is an initiative there to where you can reduce your costs and reduce your inputs on the farm save money whilst reducing your your carbon footprint and improving your what they're not taking that is there is there interest yeah it's it's it's it's full up for the year again and it's almost full for next year as well so there is it there is a good good up taking it I go cultural emissions have more or less remained the same as the hour in 1990 and we've increased our output yeah but still too high since that yes and there is more being done and we have the chagas climate roadmap the proposals there from the iraq this and the joint iraq this committee for climate change recommended that the that all the measures in the chagas climate roadmap be implemented which has the potential to reduce agricultural emissions by by up to up to a third yeah but you said before when one of those plans were unveiled that that farming can and will do more is it is it time for action and there is more and we are calling on government to do more in the renewable energy sector like for example every farmer has sheds we have roof space if we cross the border into Northern Ireland you see nearly every shed in and well and how it's covered with solar panels create an energy do you know you have more can be done on the rollout of anaerobic digestion and that is that is has been recommended in the iraq this report as well we are sorry yeah sorry just and we also the way emissions are calculated at the moment we don't get any credit for our hedgerows our sick grassland our permanent grasslands our farming is so different to the rest of continental Europe where it's mainly an indoor system and cattle are grazing out here up to nine months of the year on our sheep and and it's so different but we don't get credit for that okay and do you think we're we have to or we are coming to a situation where we simply have to cut back and cattle production dairy farming is that the way forward do you think well we are one of the most carbon efficient places in the water to produce food our beef dairy farmers are the most carbon efficient in Europe and our beef farmers in the top five and there's very little between the one and five like so or what they're there about if we cut back there's probably there's still a growing global demand if a growing water population there is a growing demand for for beef and dairy or probably one of the best place countries to maintain that and to maintain a vibrant rural economy do you know and like farming has been such a heartbeat of rural Ireland and if we cut back and it's not going to be good for the rural communities okay Pippa I want to ask you about it was uproar in the farming industry over over two recent stories and reports one what's to do with the the medical journal study which suggested that our meat and dairy consumption would have to drop by 90% in future if it'd be serious about addressing the issue of climate change and there was also a suggestion that more of us look need to look at vegetarianism veganism is that something you think our agriculture industry will corporate and will adopt to I think with the Lancet study I think the initial response was one of I think shock among the general public that the figures were so high I think you know within hours of its release then there was further in-depth analysis in terms of who backed the study and that caused a lot of discussion to you know when you dug through the you know scroll down through all the web pages you would find names like Monsanto and Bayer and Nestle involved in this study which would be sort of counterintuitive to most farmers animal based farmers that why would you know these huge you know pharmaceutical and multi-national global sectors which seemingly support animal agriculture be supporting this particular study so I think there was a can of worms opened yeah but I was listening to one commentator and they said at least it is initiated and begun debate on the issue well maybe what they're saying in the 90% doesn't really matter it's the fact that people are talking about yeah I think I think to be honest there was nothing really new in it I mean we've been known for I'd say a long long while decades that we probably do consume too much meat you know we are in a very you know Western civilization probably eats too much of everything whether it's meat or sugar or fats or or you know processed foods from a I suppose from a from my perspective I would you know all meats aren't the same there's there's meat that's you know locally produced that people eat locally that is low air miles then there's meat that's you know intensively produced you know lots of imported feed brought in to feed the animals to produce it in that way so I think you sort of need to step back and see exactly how the farming how it works but if indeed there is a world trend you know maybe away from you know red meat or beef eating and dairy and consumption then you know our government really has to and other governments I suppose around the world have to sort of think about that and see how you know how is how are their own piles our country going to adapt to a changing you know food consumption your party has been critical of what they would see as lack of action by the farming organizations and support would that still be the case which is still feel they have a lot more to do I think so absolutely I mean at the end of the day the emissions are still going up I mean Marion alluded to the EU as a as a as a continent or as a group of 28 countries has the lowest per capita emission emissions Ireland in the EU is one of the highest per capita emissions so when we look at Ireland as its own country we have an awful lot to do and agriculture has to play its role I know we've got to transport and we've got energy sectors we can't you know we all every single sector has to play its role and agriculture has to play its role unfortunately the emissions from Irish agriculture excuse me are increasing and you know we can talk about efficiencies you know and you know using technology to improve efficiencies and using breeds to improve efficiencies but efficiencies really only work if the numbers stay the same but you can't have efficiency and increase numbers that just doesn't work it's been like you know Ryan air having wonderfully efficient planes but doubling the numbers in the sky the emissions keep rising so I think we have to look at that okay in terms of Irish agriculture okay Martin as I said you're a member of the joint directors committee in agriculture now far be it from any politician to be proposing new taxes of any sort and but it seems that the introduction of a carbon tax which the committee has discussed and considered would be one way of getting us to step into line in relation to our commitment to reduce the emissions is that something you would support or not well first of all it's not the introduction of a carbon tax it's already there yeah but it meant 10 years ago and it was set out I think it's 20 years that's something you would support did you support at the committee or no we wouldn't support it and we didn't support it the committee and the reason we didn't support it was basically we find that carbon taxes don't work because they don't work because first of all and I'll give you the example a lot of people working here in Sligo town live in Kinla or live in Trabacore and a couple years ago the price of petrol or fuel was probably 20-30% less than it is now as people stopped driving to Sligo town to work of course they haven't they have no other option in what we need to do is put alternatives in place first and then you can look at how you can tax the things that are high carbon but doing that in the absence of alternatives is just buttoned the character for the whole alternatives are you talking about because I know and McCarty mentioned this during the week as well are you talking about government investment you're talking about government investment you're talking about for instance since the carbon tax came in that we have now I think there's 3.3 billion euros of the collective the average government carbon tax no that has been ring-fenced for using it for climate or anything it's just going into the general exchequer and it's used for whatever has been used for the first thing the government need to do is they need to become responsible at their behavior before the start lecturing to ordinary people out there who are working very hard who can't afford to pay additional taxes in regard to their fuel or in regard to insulate their housing I met people today in Bali Shannon living in rented houses that and they can't get a house that is well insulated and all winter they're telling me that they're paying huge costs for to reheat that house to say that you're going to do something for the environment by putting an additional tax on those people who are already at the pin of their collar to exist is just ridiculous so I think it's it's it's really one of these things that we come about that government wants to say look at this is the solution everybody has to pay a little you know the truth is the big players here have to pay a little we have to pay that the most because it's if the polluter pays principle is going to be endorsed it has to be the producer of the pollution not the unfortunate consumer out there who have no other alternative okay and before we move on to another question the joint eruptus report and recommendations that there is an acknowledgement that the farming industry needs to be helped you're not there to punish them or to blame I think one of the things that I get out of this whole debate is but there's huge opportunity for farmers the huge opportunity for agriculture land use and how we how we change and how we evolve in the future in regard to all of this could be something that could be very very good for farmers particularly on what we call marginal land or poor land in the west of Ireland where farmers are already you know find the difficult to survive on the model of farming that they're using at present that if we can develop alternative models to do that then we can move forward we had a number of recommendations that we put out in our alternative report in regard to I suppose what we call Lord intensity and higher nature value farmer and we talked about you know the whole slurry issue how we need to deal with that how we need to get our new to our nutrients for soil nutrition in a different way and we need to use less of the the bike stop as we used to call it from any farmers really mean the room in other words the artificial fertilizer and the artificial nitrates we need to move away from that we need to enhance our hedgerows at the moment we're given grants for farmers for to plant land and at the same time if you look at the farmers that have hedgerows around the country they have the cut like tickle box hedges and the reason for that is because they're fined by the Irish government under their single payments if they let the hedge grow out somebody takes a photograph from outer space and say oh you can't claim on that and you're penalized for this should be absolutely allowed to let the head goes grow out and so that we can have a higher nature value farmer that's what we need to go to the future we refer to the Lancet report area can I ask you as a panel to react to the controversy over the recent on Tashka schools initiative the farmers and particularly as you know Thomas went absolutely berserk over this and the green schools resource packed introduced a certain schools advising students to cut down on their their meat intake and to lower their carbon footprint and they were talking about the introduction of meatless Mondays was it an overreaction on your associations we have for not Thomas no I wouldn't think so because there was so many other other options that they could have used you know we could have went for a sugarless Monday we could have went for a processed food free Monday do you know like it rather than I don't think they are do you know like we could go for a chips and pizza free Monday do you know or something like that instead the junk food free day and we felt that and Tashka weren't really qualified to give dietary advice and it was it went against Everton that people like Dr. Eva Orsmond and all that said that veganism do you know it's look I'm everybody's entitled to be a vegetarian if they want but it's not something that could be fortune upon people to do we'd be of the opinion a little a balanced diet of everything is best but you know don't you had represented us from the farming industry saying that this was anti dairy anti livestock one person accused and Tashka ignoring the values of rural life yeah I think that was an overreaction well if you look at transport emissions transport emissions have increased by 133% since since 1990 agricultural emissions have gone up by 3% since 90 or 3% lower actually the way they were even even lower there's nobody saying to go for a careless Monday you know because we can't you know there's nobody saying to stop playing this paper did you think it was a worthy initiative wasn't in all schools as we know and it was backed by the Minister for Education we should say as well I think it was I think it was an overreaction to be honest I mean again as I say I mean we've been trying to encourage for the healthy eating in all sorts of guises and one of them is we do eat too much meat on that that's not necessarily saying oh let's shut down agriculture in Ireland it's about as I said the quality of the meat we eat so I mean you know what my parents generation they'd like one chicken a year and that was like a special day you know now people are eating meat three or four times a day you know and it's too much meat you know so I think because it's so cheap now we're producing cheap meat and you know colleague of mine actually in a he's an agricultural economist also has described our model of beef beef production in particular as burgers and meat bowl model so like the BAM model you know because I think I think that's fairly accurate because we're just pumping out beef out of Ireland we're pumping out milk and there's no real you know it's nothing really differentiating Irish beef from from other beef unfortunately and I think that's that's a very huge issue for you you're a former teacher so you know you think it was something which was relevant and there are one or two things that differentiate Irish beef I mean beef produced in temperate climate you know you know grassland has the lowest carbon emissions globally and Ireland is one of the best I don't have the exit I'm not saying that there are no issues but I'm saying that beef produced in Ireland is not necessarily the same as beef produced elsewhere and I think that needs to be taken into consideration that's not negating your argument but it's an important part of it I mean if we look for example to Brazil at the moment and they're again I mean I suppose they never stopped cutting down the forest but they're in it's an increase in that at the moment and very often the rate of increase of divart station in Brazil is linked to the price of beef globally and so I think we have to look at food security it's all part of a bigger picture so the beef that we produce the milk that we produce we have to produce it in the most efficient way yes we have to recognize that there are issues around how much we produce how it's produced how efficient it is but equally it would be wrong to say that beef produced in Ireland is the same as elsewhere okay I would just like to qualify that a little bit more in terms of I was perhaps a little rash in my description of it but when you look at the the market price that as I'm a beef farmer fair enough I'm an organic but it's still pretty much linked in line to the conventional price you know 375 per kilogram or 370 wherever is today is that's where beef is for the Irish farmer so that's you compare that across the board it's you know yeah you know so it's not you know market value it's not perceived as any better no so that's Thomas was saying that you know and Chagas can't can't have a responsibility or the campaign authority on on dietary and food requirements but we mean they are tasked with protecting the environment was it relevant do you think that they introduced I think it was it was partially relevant possibly you know it opened up a discussion maybe that was no harm but I think that the point that both both Marion and Pippa made in fairness both of them are correct I think one of the problems we have with Ireland is we produce beef of the highest quality like I've been to Europe and I've been presented with steaks that are supposed to be the best steak in the restaurant and it was half grizzly you got it here in a butcher just in a bag but yet yeah we don't get the price in Ireland for the quality of product that we produce we're family farm grass fed free roaming fully traceable hormone free all of those things and yet we get an average price the same as everyone else in Europe now that is a problem and the problem here is the supermarkets and the processors they are not interested in differentiating the Irish product to get the highest possible price for and delivering that price back to the primary producer and until we get to a stage where we have some control over that and unfortunately the control is left in the market system and the market system doesn't work for the small farmer in the west of Ireland who's bringing their way into the market and trying to get a price for them but we need we need we need to change that model okay and get a model where if we're producing highest quality product at a low intensity farming that's doing the least damage to the environment we the farmers should be getting a premium for it and if they do that and we were getting premium for I guarantee you farmers would then without anyone telling them reduce okay because they wouldn't want to go back Thomas you wanted to make a comment on yeah just to follow up on what Martin was saying look I agree you are not getting enough for a product for the standards that we're producing it to and look at that there has been unfair trade and practice legislation brought in in the parliament it probably does need to be strengthened if we welcome it's a start what it is but it's not enough below cost selling you walk into every supermarket here you see meat is the one thing that's used as a thing to lure people in 50% discount you see discounted steaks discounted chickens discounted pork meat is used to lure people into the supermarkets and below cost selling does need to be stamped out and the read there needs to be a retail regulator put in incident there's only something like 1% of organic farmers in Ireland but just under about 1.7 because government policy is actively starved that sector of funding it's been it's been starved of funding I mean we've actually if you just look at it in as its own sector it's one of the most flourishing sectors worldwide you know it's it's the consumers who who like buy organic food are you know they're they're wealthy they're they're they're environmentally aware they're they're you know aware of how their food is produced and they will pay for that and they will pay the market in this world of ours that that our country has decided well we're not going to enter that yeah we're much lower than the European average is about seven percent you've countries like Austria up around 23% what is their opportunities there's almost anything possibly and maybe the size maybe the size of farms in Ireland is part of the reason why it's not to the other size is 32 hectares not be perfect it may not be big enough to deliver a full-time viable income if you have to go dairy and it's it's harder to go you did a bigger farm to go there it may be being starved of funding is another reason as well the market the market under the product is a big problem as well I mean 70% of the vegetables organic vegetables in Ireland are imported and we're important carrots yeah from other countries that we can grow in Ireland organically and yet we're import them and yet the people out there who are selling them can't get enough people to grow the product the organic farmers that I've been around the country and talk to you know who are in the horticultural sector are making quite good money you know very few sell them when you go to a farmer and they're not complaining and I'm not to be but usually farmers have a lot of complaints when you go to the organic vegetable farmers you know they're saying oh yeah things are pretty good we're happy we're okay so that tells me that there's an opportunity there for people and it's not been taken up and one of the main reasons not been taken up is because the sector hasn't been organized properly it hasn't been been worked out in a way in which we can we can market the product that we and any sector in agriculture that you want to establish really you have to have it done by an arm of the state you have to get somebody from government to come and organize it and set up the sector remove the risk initially for farmers so that they can get going and they can get work and then they will take over because it's left to market forces what happens then is some big gate comes in and undercuts the small right benefits I counted the audience in a couple of moments we are as we know facing quite hefty fines if we don't as a country we don't meet our 2020 emissions targets and is there a sense marrying that people think oh it's it's a problem for the future doesn't affect the here and now and there's no urgency yes I think that is the case I think if you go back to what Greta Thunberg said she said you don't listen to the science because it'll give you answers that you do not want to hear and to be honest as an MEP who flew over and back to Brussels every week at times I thought how can I be telling other people about you know reducing CO2 emissions when I'm probably contributing just as much and more than others so I think it's that we all actually have to look to ourselves but of course the state has to put in place the framework that we can act within but just seeing that we are talking about agriculture here today there is just one point I'd like to make and I'm sure we will discuss it the the new cap proposal yeah it's a great deal of flexibility to member states as to how they draw up their cap strategic plan and I agree with Martin there is a real opportunity now within the next two years and for environmentalists farmers and others to come together to see how that sector can contribute to mitigating climate change how it can lower emissions and how it can still deliver so viable income will you be pushing for that it should be part of the cap negotiations the cap funding absolutely I mean the parliament want 20% of the single farm payment for eco schemes and 30% of rural development for eco schemes but member states for the first time ever will have huge flexibility in how they design those schemes so that they can look to their own needs look to different parts of the country what works one place etc and to then if you like work together to to try to find ways of as I said lowering the emissions all right and that's a real opportunity and we need to grab it and I'm going to be straight open what I'm saying here the farming organizations need to step up to the table and to represent their farmers because if their farmers aren't sustainable their farmers have to be sustainable because you're talking about Irish beef and milk and prime produce and it is but if it's not sustainably priced in five years time we won't even get the average European price because that's what's going to matter so this isn't about far or against farmers this is about ensuring we have a sustainable agriculture industry which I would fully support and I think we all have to step up to that mark okay would you agree with that or not and I'm conscious of what Marion said about her own carbon footprint flying back and forward to Brussels every week we had our own the shock saying that he was worried about his own carbon footprint he was eating less meat and it was uproar about that as well amongst the farming yeah well look at it we had a number of suggestions we put the government in a climate activation and fund to invest money now in farms that will reduce our fines down the road invest in renewables we have to hold as I said earlier on solar there's the whole biomass sector can be as Martin referred to margin of land that could be growing something else maybe some kind of energy crops instead of we have the whole peat and coal borne and plants do you know that they can be changed to get to biomass all that sort of area there if the investment can be made now of course I agree with Marion we have called in our cap program for the next the next agri environment scheme to be 10,000 per farm the same as what the old rips type scheme was and it will be all measured in it aimed at reducing emissions improving water quality maybe maybe possibly renewables in it as well but but the renewables sector should come with some it should come whether whether it's cap funding it doesn't matter we are all for it we want renewables we are on the course we want renewables because it's an opportunity for them to make more money okay that's the least at least you're honest about it anyway but Martin have you have you what are you doing to reduce your carbon footprint well I actually come to you easy to easy know there's an election campaign on the way yeah well look I mean the the it's interesting this year I actually looked at it for the second time I looked at an electric car and I did yeah and because I'm a long way from the doll I look to see with the miles work and did you just look at it I cut it for a weekend they give it to me for a weekend and I looked at it and it would work from the point of view of distance just about you ran it dry you have to get to the electron back in an electric car no no problem 400 miles you get it says 450 400 really the problem is it's nearly 40 grand okay and it's it's even like I have a decent salary but I have a mortgage and I have 14 years children to go to college and I couldn't afford to pay that now and that type of thing will have to be looked at some scheme for to get people that they're able to move to electric vehicles because I read the reality is for most people out there electric vehicles won't be an option for them until their second hand one's available because most people it's a second hand car they buy not a new one because they can't afford it so you know we are we are a we are a distance from that but just to come back to that the points were made about agriculture well and they are a bit yeah well they're not available on the mileage that will work for people who live in rural Ireland because they only the new ones come out now we're available for that might be so anyway the issue in regard to agriculture and sectors and where things is going on the beef sector and all of that what I'm fearful is that they push toward intensity and intensity you have to have more and more capital in order to survive more and more land you have to be bigger and bigger and bigger the farmer that had you know it was milking 30 cows a few years ago was able to survive now they have to have 80 cows to make the same income and that's the problem we've got that and all the time the pressure is for to produce more for a lower profit and therefore and that's a reason to get bigger and bigger and that's that's part of the problem and we need to tackle that problem alright does anybody from the audience want to ask a question Leslie I'll take you first and then lady behind you this is Leslie O'Hara who's a Green Party spoke Green Party local election candidate former general election candidate Leslie hi yeah Leslie O'Hara candidate in in Carrigan Shannon at South Leitrim for a Green Party if I think if Greta Thornberg was here tonight she'd probably send the two gentlemen out of the class and have them stand you know with Dunce's capital whatever because you know one thought about the beat the meat situation Pat O'Neill CEO of Avonmore 20 years ago said we should only be eating red meat once a week and you know the gentlemen standing up there are sitting there from the IFA talking about you know maybe we should probably kind of do something maybe and if I look at this incredible 29 page document which he sent out which is your manifesto for the local elections and the European elections there's a tiny bit in there about environment and there's nothing about solar and there's nothing about wind and yet every week I'm contacted by sheep farmers and the like wanted to get into it you just are not at the races you're just not at the races okay the lady behind you to make a comment or ask a question thank you very much my name is Bridget Murphy and before I make my comment I would just like to say to Thomas that your statistic about the dairy being the most efficient in Europe and the beef being the fifth most efficient that those are 2015 research based on 2011 statistics so I think somewhere along the line the IFA needs to revisit those but I'd like to speak about the fact that women make up 13 percent of farm owners in Ireland and we make up 50 percent of the rural population and undoubtedly we the backbone of the family farm but you'd also see us out of the front campaigning for the environmental biodiversity and climate action issues although women are plentiful in the farming organizations we run the offices we the secretaries and PROs and more recently we branch and chair county chairs but we are now issues and our contributions to climate action are notably absent from the policy and decision-making tables in 2019 men are still speaking for us woman there's nothing in the older the new cap proposals for women and although we hear about a concerted effort to bring women and young farmers along you would notice that this is not happening okay we would see say for example Phil Hogan in the last week has announced a 1 billion euro for loans to young farmers with preferential rates and longer payback terms but there was no similar scheme for women so farming organizations need to bring woman up to the climate change and agricultural tables all right okay I just want to make one more statement very quickly because I want to get Thomas Mary Robinson says that climate change is a man-made problem that needs a feminist solution thank you okay Thomas there's a couple of questions there you do you want to do you want to answer Bridget first of all yeah I can answer Bridget on the women and couple of years ago we only had one woman at National Council there's 58 people sit at National Council there is out of the out of the 29 county chairs understood there's a couple of the bigger counties broken up we have eight out of 29 is women and a couple years ago there was only one so we are doing a lot we've had a diversity committee set up and there has been a number of recommendations on that and Kathleen has been involved and that Kathleen can comment on that later on if she wants yeah and she's one of one of them the eight women and the 1 billion loans there's nothing any any woman farmer out there that female farmer that meets the criteria that has done that fits the agricultural qualifications and in the age bracket for it there's nothing to stop a man or woman from lifting that money and if the farm and they can get it so the point at least you're only playing lip service to this lip service because this issue and Marion said 40 per up to 40 percent of the of the rule of the next cap has to be environmental measures and that is all in that document there because at the minute you have 30 percent green and you have the law schemes you have the knowledge transfer you have the beef genomic scheme all those schemes are long you're the carbon footprint of those farms you have the traditional hey meadows you have the fencing off of water courses the beef genomic scheme is delivering the more efficient suckler cow that they can feed the calf with with less supplements you know and better fertility all that sort of thing so we are doing a lot okay all right yeah I got you back in a moment just just before I come to I want to come to Kathy in the front row Pippa just on the scene as Leslie asked the question he's a green party candidate because climate change is now acknowledged as being such a huge issue why aren't you doing better politically green why don't you have more TD I think you have houses in every local authority well we should do but people are people are people don't like change and this is a big change for people you know to to to consider changing your lifestyle I mean as we say we're leaving it for our next generation I mean our my children are gonna have a the way we're going a completely different childhood and adulthood to what we have had I think we're gonna have to you know we're gonna talk about we've got a overtly consumeristic society we can throw away what we like we can buy what we want we all want to drive big cars we've all got like you know 600 pound phones in our hands and yet we spend I don't know what 10 11% of our off our off our off our just but is it frustrating for you when you've been pushing this agenda for years before it was fashionable yeah and it is frustrating but I think I would like to think that the gretches of this world and and the you know the David Attenborough's and it's so much in our faces now you know even 10 years or even five years ago at the time of the last local elections European elections it wasn't at the height it is now so I mean you know we are on on a green wave most certainly I'd like to you'd like to hope Mary well I don't jump in a little you're not going to join the Green Party you know I'm going to jump in I'm going to jump in a little a few minutes ago I said I put it up to the farming organizations I think it also has to be put up to the Green Party in this sense looking at it from the outside because I'm neither farmer nor a Green Party member it seemed to me that for too long people are in silos and that there wasn't enough honest open conversation I'm not blaming anybody for that but I'm simply saying that's what happened and the truth is and I have been to some farmers meetings thanks me to God I've been to them where I finally can see that farmers and people who care about the environment are talking together and are looking at solutions that hasn't happened in any meaningful way up to now but now it's happening and the truth is it probably needs people like you who have a farming background you're from rural Ireland you understand the issues I think up to now to some extent and this isn't meant as criticism it's just meant as how I see it and I could be totally wrong that the green movement in Ireland was more urban based and was not you know conscious of the issues very much I think there has been for too long a sense that the environmentalist lobby you know is anti-farmer and that the farmer back is up as soon as I see somebody coming with a green potential I think there's there's a happy marriage to be made here okay the good working out right sorry just to just we do have constructive meetings with the green part of the event last year and so did Martin in all right Kathleen Henry recently elected chairperson of County yeah Bridget mentioned all about woman and I guess I joined IFA with her president Colin Modano was one of our senior officers and he sits as you know departed and become president dying HFA I guess at the time I didn't care whether it was a man or a woman or whatever else I love farming and I guess that's the bottom end of the day with your woman or man and you love farming you're going to go out and do the best part in relation to the environment I'm sorry but I was a woman I happen to be on the environment committee at the time we were trying to start off the smart farming so to say that there was women involved in trying to get environmental issues in the IFA I'm sorry but I was there I was on the management committee and I was one of the people that tried to get smart farm going I happen to be bringing those things down and your president should get priority I don't know I am in the night I'm in the IFA and I don't think I've ever got priority because I'm a woman you guys there and you fight your issues whatever it is I've just listened to everybody here going on about farming yeah and about whatever else just sometimes it feels like we are agreeing we do our best we have always done our best for the environment we've always done our best to make sure that we have sustainable farming and we've always done our best out there but it just feels like it's always farming that's being here what about the other industries that's contributing to the environment I don't see you having any meetings about aviation or anything else or transport or whatever else sometimes it just feels like the farm is the easy target to pick on we might not be perfect we're doing our best we have brought in smart farming initiatives and look I don't I don't know like at the IFA I said I know I'm only recently elected we are trying to bring in change we are trying to bring in more females and that's supposed to cross every organization it's like it's a learning curve the environment we are doing our best we are trying to bring in new measures on the environment okay this gentleman here in the front row wants to do us ask questions I let the panel in maybe direct what Kathleen has to say I got a fork in front-line energy I'm an energy engineer I was just asking the panel if they could outline some of the business opportunities for farming and renewables and if they're aware of any barriers if you want to take that could Thomas yeah I take that I'm on solar for example the plan and permission requirements when you cross 50 square meters even if there's no house in close proximity and the there's I think the renewable energy directive at European level does need to be revisited to make it easier for community-based projects let it be solar or anaerobic digestion or possible wind is a difficult one at the moment because it's not the most popular one to have in the area but the other two solar and anaerobic digestion to have community based because they're probably going to be more effective at community-based level if at farm scale the restrictions on plan and permission grid access is another one that has to be looked at as well okay there's a number of sorry Martin I was just going to say that I think one of the big problems with solar is the fact that the small person that puts panels on the roof of their shed can't get paid for the energy yeah that's that's an immediate thing that can be solved and an actual fact it not only should the the farmer that's prepared to put their static shed and covered in solar panels of the person spread put in their house they shouldn't just get the same as the big company that's doing it they should actually get more than the big company that's doing it they should get an extra because they're taking a risk that they can't afford in their lives whereas the company that is a whole lot of investors can afford risk so I think you know there should be an immediate thing done there and it will change it overnight all right okay the gentleman the second row I think it is handle first and the lady behind behind him sorry yeah my name is John Connor I'm a member of the Institute I'm also a farmer and I'm over 70 of the days when I have lived on a small farm in the natural world of my life so without being arrogant I think that is a fair idea what I'm talking about and I want to go back to the issue first of all raise the Mr. Cooney from the IFA that not enough credit is given to the farm to agriculture for the sequestration of carbon I I don't want to be personal with it there are thousands like me ten years ago I designated half my farm under a scheme called Phipps and we planted something like 65 acres and 150 180,000 trees mostly broadly growing I got no credit for the sequestration of carbon that that forest does but the capture but I got an accusatory finger of blame pointed at me for the 20 bullbines that I now keep on grassland you know so that there is we need a net bigger not a gross yes 30% that needs to be to be to be to be back in the bar the other question that raises and I'm an absolute environmentalist myself but there are things about this debate in relation to agriculture that we need to be careful about but we're thinking about the planet I think there's now something close on eight billion souls on the planet and we don't produce enough food I know it's the distribution is the problem of course to feed all of them there's still a billion people who live on the verge of starvation on the planet and there's probably another billion that are insecure now by 2030 we might have moved up over 10 12 billion people on the planet and then we're not we don't have enough land we don't have enough clean water to produce food for all that population but that's where inevitably we're going particularly in Asia and I'm wondering now that this debate is moving food production away from intensification to an old term that used to be in the jargon to exit maybe nothing wrong about it but one day you might find the result of the reduction of food on the on the world a climate incident in North America why about half the food grain there are in Australia because these are the important places okay and then you'd have starvation okay and I'd like that to be part of the consideration this debate which is not all right does anyone want to respond it's a very very relevant a good point you're absolutely right to introduce the idea of food security and if we look even at quite recent history like the arms spring and whatever a lot of those events were precipitated by spikes in the cost of commodities around the world literally tweet people did not have their daily bread so it's not just an impact on on agriculture or on food or the people might go hungry it actually has implications way beyond that so food security has to be part of this debate and of this argument and I don't know enough about this perhaps Thomas might be able to comment but again it's how we use the land we have how we use the available resources we have how we look after our soils because if we don't have much better soil management we won't be able to continue to produce food like we do we won't obtain water or proper nutrient absorption so it the question then becomes how do we use the resources we have to feed the world the way we are focusing on agriculture is that the way we need to go and just very quickly on your second comment of planting broadleafs etc I think what we need to look at in Ireland is that integrated land use management so that areas that and you mentioned it earlier Martin that might be considered marginal actually have very high value when it comes to carbon sequestration etc and then other areas are more suitable for whether it's dairy or beef production or whatever but the problem is that we do not see both as equally valuable the problem still is that intensive production growing the numbers etc seems to be the objective rather than trying to balance and have proper land use management that rewards all farmers for the goods they produce okay well I want to I want to go back to the forestry issue in a moment because I know a lot of people are interested Pippa you wanted to respond to John yeah and then you Thomas you mentioned about I mean initiatives such as agro forestry and actually integrating you know animal you know production with forests and with with trees is important one word that hasn't I was glad to hear Marion mention soils because what hasn't come up is biodiversity and we tend to what we we end up getting caught up in these discussions so today we're talking about climate change in agriculture and then you know tomorrow there's going to be another talk about biodiversity in agriculture we talk about these things in their own little pigeonholes when they're all part of the big thing it's a holistic thing and it's all connected really at the end of the day with food and food production and that's connected with health and human health on this whole planet now we do produce enough food we produce enough food currently for about nine billion people the problem as you I alluded to it's the distribution it's war torn it's corruption it's all of this issue and what we do in terms of food security and a global base we don't we don't need to be producing like stacks of food here for other countries in one sense we should be looking after ourselves first I mean we're food secure and beef and dairy but we're not food secure and vegetables we're Ireland I'm talking about we're not food secure and potatoes and we're not food secure in apples and we can grow fantastic apples potatoes I mean my goodness we've had nine eight million people with potatoes at one stage so we need to look at ourselves first and that that's how other countries should do it so rather than importing vast quantities of grain from America to feed you know starving sub-Saharan Africans we the world together should be trying to help these people grow their own food and that's the problem because that there's no money in big corporate and agri food businesses if we get people to go their own okay I'll let you back in a moment this lady here's been wearing some time yeah go ahead hello Mary is my name I noticed that in the current focus on the divide up of the pie has started already on climate action money for farmers and there seems to be a massive focus on paying the polluter to approve but there's very little talk about payment for what Marion touched on there the farmers in this in the country who are very much the most valuable silent land in the country for the first time the most valuable in the world the carbon-rich science and I have a huge concern that that land is going to be forgotten again and that those farmers are going to be left assuming that they're going to continue protecting that land and that is going to be part of their most basic the most basic payment to actually protect that land when payments really truly need to be flipped on their head so that I'm paid on a scale so that the farmer who is not polluting gets paid first and gets insured a long-term payment that he won't have to be concerned about so if you got a farmer who's got these carbon-rich science and has looking after it and has always looked after it for free by the way he farms he should be ensured that he will get paid to keep that and other people should be paid accordingly to come up to that and they should not be just paid to come up being a polluter because we have a situation already in the last class where people who were polluter actually got paid seven thousand when there were people around here who were not polluters who failed to actually get into the last scheme at all because they weren't polluting in some way and there was no access to the scheme for them and they couldn't find an access to get that very vibrant five thousand at most a year but other opportunities okay I guess I'll get the panel to respond to that in a moment it's this gentleman here yeah but Karen as the chief executive of Sligo County Council Karen Hayes just a few comments well I'm chief executive of the council here I also represent the local government sector at national level in terms of our response to the whole climate change challenge and I will be the first to put my hand up and say we are not ready we're not in a good position and it will take a serious amount of work for us to get into that good position there is a lot of work underway and we start to see it evolve as we move on where we are very good is in responding and remediating after the ever more frequent events of severe weather and that's another element of climate change that doesn't really get the airing but it's where we are in the front line and actually very good in responding yet we have a serious amount of work to do and part of that work is in the whole area of behavioral change and taking the comments and the contributions from this evening I have to say I was fascinated and interested by them but it just shows the length that we have to go it seems to me that the whole debate in relation to carbon tax is going to replace the space of the debate of water charges of previous years we have the farming sector looking to the transport sector and I'm sure the transport sector is going to be looking to the farming sector and it seems to me we have the issue that we have to face is to do the right thing yet we're all looking for the government to give us better subsidies to do this that together there will not be enough to go around and I just think in terms of the challenge that we ourselves face in the local government sector in the area of I suppose nudging along the behavioral change I think judging from tonight I think we have a very serious challenge in that alone. Okay that's a very stark warning from Kiron there a couple of issues well first the access what what Mary was talking about access to the glass scheme. I think the access to the glass scheme was a problem the last time because many farmers that were in what would be considered a hit using the term marginal land they were in farms of land that were in the west of Ireland that weren't as good a soil quality or as good a depth of soil but are still land that was farming and they were doing their business on it they couldn't show improvement in other words they were already farming the way that glass wanted them to farm and when they went to look and said well what can we do with you guys really we can't do nothing with you you're already doing a perfect so therefore you you don't qualify so you get nothing yeah you get nothing for doing the right thing and the farmers that were able to show that they could do stuff did get into it and I think that that is that is the nob of the issue here the the low intensity grazing which we see on the uplands generally in this part of the world is probably one of the most carbon neutral if not actually sequestering carbon then then then anything else that can be used the land can be used for and one of the big problems I've got is that we have huge areas of that what would be shallow bog or peak like type land which has been covered in Silke Spruce forestry which is actually the reverse it was doing better when it was left alone and now it's doing this is the problem with government environmental schemes they're not result-based that those sort of farms should be getting paid now you're doing it right you know you're lucky if you're there you've been you know marginalized for years you hit the jackpot now and the other farmers should be encouraged to get to that level and then you get paid it has to be result-based you can't just make up the the the the scheme take all the boxes say there that's job done okay you share Mary's frustration there Thomas yes and in that document that the green candidate gentlemen has there it does say a Niagara environmental scheme of up to 10,000 year with priority priority for the people who designated land which is in this part of the country we I know that but but it's still there's a negative Niagara environmental scheme we're looking for an increased ANC the current cap proposals does is proposing for more convergence what level that's going to happen we only have there's only going to be 1.2 billion we have 140 thousand farmers there's not going to be enough to give everybody 20,000 do you know like so it's about getting the balance right we still have to support the farmers the beef are the suckler farmers the dairy farmers the sheep farmers the organic farmers they have to get funded as well do you know okay how was divided out our biggest priority at the minute is protect in the morning I want to try and get to as many people as I can but just I have to disagree okay our not our biggest priority one of our priorities is to protect and maximize the amount of money coming for the undercap but we have other priorities that are just important as important we're now payments are based on stock numbers and on farming practices that were in place 20 years ago now yes we are having some convergence etc but there has to be a debate around that Thomas and I think too many meetings I think too many meetings where people say we get the ball of money from Brussels and when we get at home we'll see how it's divided that's not the way to do finally paper you spoke about outputs and results based the current cap is designed to measure those and that's how people and a quick response from any of you in relation to what Karen Hayes said about the prospect of the carbon tax becoming the new water charge issue Martin as a politician look I don't think that's the case I think really you know the opportunity to stare for to embrace this is where we need to be looking at it I think in investment invests everybody is close result yeah anyway no the election will be over in three weeks let's see then just let him yeah okay in relation to carbon I keep going leslie when you're finished and I'll speak you're finished are you finished sorry I'll come back to you Leslie go go ahead Martin just just finish your finish making your point Martin there okay you're finished now thank you no the issue in regard to to where we're going to go with with the carbon tax and all of that yeah I think the opportunity to stare for and not just agriculture but industry and every every part of all of this for to be able to reap and from an investment that goes in now I think we need to be seeing these as investments not as costs and that's one of the problems we've got that government say we have a cost of doing all of it it's not a cost it's an investment that will reap or not just for the environment but economically as well into the future there's a couple of gentlemen have been waiting there so yeah down the back yeah hi you do first of all Maria Walsh is my name I'm the European election candidate for Midlands Northwest focusing on the West and Northwest well I step into the light are you good first and foremost I just want to congratulate the Institute for and our and our chair here now for having a great conversation and I'm gonna offer a little bit of transparency in the sense that every day I'm learning more and more from all generations particularly our younger ones about climate and there's so much things out there in terms of what we can be doing better and what we could be doing more in a prosperous way and balanced way in a fair way I guess my question to the panel is this you know I went I came away from a door a couple nights ago and go away and a young man father of two says why is in climate conversation treated with urgency and I get it I understand the impact and and the noise he was making because it's much needed but my problem is at what point do we stop pointing fingers and everybody sit around the table like the good old days and figure out solutions to making sure that proverb of we are not inheriting land from our parents we're borrowing it from our future children at what point do we say hang on a second what are we doing here to make things better in an urgent way now I 100% agree and I've been saying it to in my entire campaign it's the case of you can't flick a switch much like I agree both for the generation renewal programs has to also impact climate it's our transport not just national local and European politics it's also international and everywhere in between because it is an issue and Greta is too mature beyond our years and I wish we had a champion like her in this country but I'm so delighted she's representing the European family but I ask this to the panel and perhaps anybody on the floor what is it that we need to start doing to stop pointing fingers at each and every one of everybody across departments parties and say hang on a second let's all take responsibility to make sure in the next 50 years we have our agri sector growing we have our younger generations not taking to the streets and droves and we have a fair country okay well I think we all agreed there's less pointing fingers maybe there has been certainly publicity to pass does anybody want to respond to Maria well I think you know the work that the Joint Committee have done you've been a member of that Martin and I asked Thomas before we came up here I said what's the IFA's perspective on that and he said well apart from one or two things he said we'd be largely supportive of it so I think that's the start of the dialogue but as I said it's up to perhaps I don't know whether it be the department or whoever will coordinate it but because of the fact that the Irish government the Department of Agriculture will have much greater flexibility now in designing programs under cap designing different programs for different parts of the country and working with farmers to produce this strategic plan which of course has to be approved by Brussels you can't just come up with something it has to be approved but this I think if we use it properly Maria is a real opportunity to try and get people working together and I hear what Kathleen is saying and I've no doubt if I was a farmer myself I would feel a bit persecuted what more can I do I'd be saying but I think to get over that we now have that opportunity and I think the the report that you have in the door can be the starting point for that and is a good starting point and to bring people to find then ways means pathways for delivery on those objectives that you have I go to this gentleman he's been waiting a long time policies for that one thing I haven't heard mentioned so far from anybody would it be on the floor on the panel is jobs the 300,000 people employed in the Irish food sector as primary producers in Ireland and no matter what we do in terms of climate measures and future climate measures from Europe or the Irish government we have to remember jobs and keep the people employed in this country and keep people employed in rural Ireland and in towns like Slago Valley more trouble-carrying that's very important any measure that we bring in in terms of climate change to agriculture has to protect jobs that's in agriculture at the moment the other thing I want to stress there is and I'll ask the panel this is a direct question to the panel how do we get the message out about what Irish agriculture is doing to protect our environment protect our grassland protect our country sites be it our hedgerows or water forces or whatever it is we export 90% of our beef product out of Ireland 8-1 less stake here in Ireland isn't going to solve the climate change issue so my point is jobs in Ireland and how do we get the message out we have 200,000 carbon assessments done here in Ireland on Irish farms that measurement isn't in any other sector that measurement is here in the agriculture sector so we need to get the message out of all we have done in the sector and protect jobs in rural Ireland. Okay all right and we'll take an answer to that and then we'll take the gentleman behind you Pippa. Yeah just briefly on the first point you raise is very very vital and I was recently at a board Nimona event I wasn't it was about a just transition event about the I live in County Arflea so we're gonna you know potentially lose you know hundreds of jobs in that one area when they stop harvesting peat and the same thing applies to the farming sector if we're going to decarbonize agriculture then we need a just transition approach to the agriculture sector as well how we protect that family farm it's about protecting family farms and people who rely on it to survive so I think it's comparable with the peat you know the fossil fuel sector in Ireland as well I think in terms of getting out there you know you'd have to question I mean you know at the end of the day our biodiversity in Ireland is in decline our hedgerows are in decline our grassland is and soil quality is in decline so unfortunately that message isn't there to sell and I think if it were there if we were improving those things in Ireland that would be the best message to get out there and that would command 450 a kilo at least if not five Thomas you think you're getting your message out and do you have a concern for the possibility of loss of jobs yes I do and in June 2018 Chagos produced their climate report which come up with 28 measures that had the potential to reduce agricultural emissions by a third while it's maintained in our court in number in December we wrote to on t-shirt Leo by your request and that he coordinated a whole of government approach delivery of this climate pathway and this required policy decisions in in Department of Housing and planning which I spoke about earlier on Department of Energy what Martin talked about for the people getting paid for producing renewable energy the whole forestry thing the calculating of emissions from the thing that the agroforestry we definitely we don't want carnivores we don't want counties been taken over by by Secure Spruce but there is a role for agroforestry go on forward that he's in that we need the government to deliver this we needed to live a more in the renewable energy sector we needed to deliver in the energy efficiency sector yeah there's there needs to be more support I'll take this gentleman farmer I make that comment because if I went to a meeting like this back when I started to famine 95% of farmers would be full-time farmers and be five partner that has been totally reversed and I think if we have to have a vibrant rural community we have to have and I've no doubt that carbon emissions and climate change it's a huge challenge for dairy farmers for farmers in general and dairy farmers have got a lot of state but if we need young people in rural Ireland it has to be economically sustainable by them and this event here tonight it's a pity that I see only a grey-haired brigade and I classify myself is there any young full-time farmers we have some excellent young time full-time farmers here some of them in the West Ireland that has been young farmer there it's a great pity that we couldn't have some of them here tonight because they're the generation of people that's going to have the future and you know there's marks there about differentiation of products I was at the Ornone event the other day and the most scant product in German supermarkets is Kerrygold Butter the second most scant one is coca-cola so we can differentiate our product and you know you said there about how why aren't we growing more vegetables and why are we going more predated the reason is because supermarkets commoditize them they were given them away and the problem is that food is too cheap you pass a filling station here in Slago and you can get four liters a week for 250 if you see anyone coming out of a filling station in the morning these fancy coffee at 250 you don't hear anyone saying they're too expensive so look we need full-time farmers here and we need young farmers here in the West Ireland we need we need to have them represented and I see up there sharing ideas and shaping policy and I think science can solve a lot of the problems and in permits the Department of Agriculture has done very little because I went to two conference last year as regards and I went into workshops on climate and there's a lot of things that can be done protected you really was one thing that can save emissions low carbon spreading of slurry genetics and science can do an offload they've said that we can't we can actually produce more with less if we've got the more efficient farmers in this country to come up to the standard of the top 10 percent we could actually produce more dairy and beef with about 20 or 30 percent less less stock so there is a lot to do and we need full-time farmers to do it and we need to keep farming alive here in the West okay yeah thanks very much for that I think Martin that was kind of a point you were making earlier I mean yeah I mean the fact of the matter is and to talk about the Kerry Goldwater is a typical example you know it was very well marketed it was produced as a product that was identifiable across the world we should be doing the same with our beef we should be doing the same with our lamb we should be doing the same with all of that but the problem we've gotten gentlemen down the police finger on it the supermarkets the the market controls the system you know and until we come up with it with a way of of wrestling that back and really you know and to go back to Maria's point and the climate change committee and what's been done there and that you know politicians are starting to work together and that's a good thing and there is a document there while most things in it everyone agrees on a few things people don't agree on but in general most people agree on most of us in it but the problem we have is delivery is making that happen I mean we have as you know now we have a document about about health care that come from a committee that were supposed to have a slant your care system and were years and we still haven't delivered that so I mean you know it's really about the commitment and the commitment and I go back to it again has to come from government for to deliver that's not pass in the book that's that's collectively we've got about five ten minutes left me if anybody else wants to respond to that that gentleman yes and I totally agree with everything I say and and we do need a price for those measures to mention the protected urea and the low emissions stories but and they are in that Chagos report that was talking about we need a price for a product as well we need retailer regulation we need a ombudsman a retailer ombudsman similar to what's in the UK there's Christine to gone in the UK where retailers can be held to crown below cost selling and that a farmer gets a fair price for the product okay I let James in a moment I just wanted to mention the forestry issue because they know there are some people in the audience with an interest in this certain farming reps have said in the past that and it can restrict or control meat and output not by cutting the amount of cattle we have but by creating forests to absorb or counteract emissions and we have a real problem as we know particularly in County letrum and what are the panels views on that see far all forestry isn't the same and this is the this is this question this answer could go to all of these discussions everything isn't the same you know all beef isn't same all whatever all forestry isn't the same and if we grow trees for 25 years chopped them down and that's the waste of time you've thought you've lost everything you've sequestered it's back up in smoke so it's the type of forestry that we need to grow which is important you know and it has to be a continuous cover model it has to last forever you know and farmers maybe need to extended payments to encourage them into that the moment you only get the 15 years I think you know it used to be 20 or something used to front-load it encourage people in if you know give it 30 years 50 years whatever it is you pay in because you're secure and carbon on that you know how much of a contentious this issue is yeah absolutely right you continue to sequester carbon when you have the broadleafs etc and I mean it's look it's like everything else it's driven by money I mean the level of granted and tax-free reliefs to people who want to plant forestry no farmer can compete with them so that if a piece of land comes up in litrium and somebody wants to expand whether he's an organic farmer or a dairy farmer or whatever he is he can't afford to buy it or she can't afford to buy it and this causes resentment and annoyance and people see huge areas around where they live where there used to be communities and schools being planted and once that level of resentment starts it's impossible to pull back from it and it's because our forestry policy is not a holistic it's not it's not looking for 30 and 40 years down the line it's looking at now and that absolutely needs to change and there's also I mean and let's be honest I'm just saying what people say to me there's resentment as well at this idea that farmers are coming from other parts of the country either leasing or buying land planting litrium so that they can offset their own carbon emissions I mean let's be honest about that's what the debate is out there so that has to be stopped all right okay I think yeah I think one of the key things in all of this is that it's it's a forestry policy but it's not really a forestry policy it's a timber industry policy it's about growing timber very fast for to make maximum profits for a small sector of an industry which is a very highly automated industry where very few people work and the amount of grants that's there in place for it is feeding it but also the fact that it's all tax free I mean it's supposed to be that that it's the second highest profitable sector after Darien I'd say it's probably the highest profitable sector because any money you make in forestry tax free make it on Darien you pay taxes on it so I mean it is a huge problem and there needs to be a recognition of that well one of the one of the suggestions that we had was that we should double the size of our hedgerows around the country they should let them grow out and they should allow farmers to plant additional trees along the hedgerows and that they would get a payment for having those trees and that that would double the carbon sequestration on everything I'll let Thomas make a comment on that and I'll go for shame it's in the second every farmer regardless of what county they're in they usually have a field that's not that suitable for farming let it be hilly let it be three cornered or small or whatever if there was incentives for plant and broadleaf trees in those fields and get paid accordingly for it for whatever time most farmers would take up that issue and it wouldn't have to be blanket for a station of counties like Latham that's okay I suppose look at the department is conducting a story and hopefully it will all right well the issues with that story as well I mean in the second row shameless thank you very much and I'm glad to see I think is Maria watch it here okay just a couple of points and I'd like to address the main issue Thomas if you don't mind yeah we've heard a lot about the economic crisis facing farmers we've heard a lot about tonight and my issue is I have huge concerns with the role of the IFA and ongoing role of the IFA for many years I did a report I gave it to Joe Healy in April of 2016 and it raised all of these issues that the beef planner talking about that the IFA are now basically talking about and Joe Healy undertook to engage with me on all of these issues but he binned the report now the report I do a lot of work in the area of corporate behavior business business models I don't know if you've seen the report that I think most of you in the IFA have seen the report at this stage now I found that our industry over here is it's a wash with cartel behavior there's abuse of dominance there's price fixing there's market sharing and I raise all these issues and I'm going to tell you now why this abuse is going on because Maria watches party for the okay all right well we want to get to I want to I want to zero in now on the environment and I want to talk about the poultry poultry sector the IFA know about the massive abuses that are taking place in the poultry sector the nitrates abuses the the polluting of hundreds of miles of our rivers the VAT fraud and abuse of antibiotics but Thomas I just like to ask you why have the IFA been both the original report on the structures and behavior of the sector and why are the IFA covering up because if you don't become transparent and you don't sit down and talk to all the stakeholders transparently we're going nowhere okay all right Thomas do you want to respond to so much shamelessness first of all the issues in the beef sector and I know there is issues in the beef sector we have we have commissioned Jim Power to do a full investigation into the beef sector to see what's wrong yeah I know I know and there has there has been people including me self-call and there's issues with grading machines and factories there's problems there we're getting getting that there is issues about whether what transparency we're getting what factories are receiving for beef quality sure beef versus non quality assured that's why we bring Jim Power that study will be published later on in the summer we'll have to await and see if anyone has evidence of a cartel I didn't see your report and but we we I'm sure if there is problems in it Jim power we'll take it on board okay we'll fight we'll fight my problem I'm conscious that we're just a on IFA protecting I don't I don't know where you get the one that we are protecting the beef sector on the poultry sector and the vet allegations it's a it's a revenue issue and I'm aware there is a legal case going on there between individuals and revenue and all the rest so I I don't think I should comment on I don't think you should okay I'm conscious we're running over time but this gentleman here on the right hand side thank you very much my name is Korma Kerns I work with message and Kara Kachanan and you know back enough what Karen said recently it's very very disappointing to see the polarization of issues here and you know people not coming to the ground and disappointing Edward Marion and polarizing forestry okay so we are working in Lytrum we support 140 jobs there contribute in million to the local economy in terms of wages and salaries alone we do admit that there were mistakes made in the past in terms of forestry that was 20 30 years ago when the forestry was very very poorly developed in Ireland we have plantations that are planted up to the side of the road no mix of broadleaf etc etc a lot of that those problems are coming home to roots now yes that is a real problem and that is a real problem that the industry has to face up to and try and deal with and there are things we are looking at but if you look at recent plantations in terms of the last 20 years it requires a 50% broadleaf plantation there are regulations around how close to the road that they should be planted the reality is that what we're encouraging is farmers to get involved in in doing some forestry along with their agriculture there's a sustainable industry there there are 12,000 people working in the country it's a 2.3 billion economy to work to Ireland and in Lytrum we manufacture doors that's the value and a product we make we manufacture doors out of timber from Lytrum and we ship them all over the world now maybe the shipment we know that it's not good for our carbon footprint but you know we do recognize that there has been problems and specifically there has been problems in Lytrum but I don't think this is an either-or scenario you know Thomas you talked about we don't want to blanket the country with circus fruits of course we don't but we do want to get the percentage up to a point where it is a sustainable industry okay alright okay anybody want to respond to to Cormac Marion look I'm fully supportive of agroforestry but that has not been promoted that's the truth of it that's not something that's promoted and when you talk about 15% broadleaf the target actually is 30% that's what the European Commission laid down when they allowed Ireland to introduce state aid because that's what we have we have state aid for forestry in this country and the European Commission insisted on a 30% planting figure for broadleaf we have not achieved it so it's it's not an either-or I absolutely agree with you but I'm just telling you what I hear on the ground and what people are saying and it's because and I agree with Martin we don't have a forestry policy and until we have one people are going to be dissatisfied with what's happening the other comment I want to make as I might get in again is to to come back to what she must say and he was talking about cartels and whatever now I don't know about cartels but I know this much that when we talk about the beef industry and people not getting fair price every points the finger at the supermarkets and they're dead right to point the finger at supermarkets but we also have feedlots we also have processors in positions of controlling the market because when you control 10% of the supply you control the market that's the case in Ireland so we need to be upfront about what the real problems are they're not just one or two there are a number of issues and right in regard to the that fraud in the poultry sector I worked on that for several years and it is a revenue issue you're right about that but again it's not being that well it's part of it by revenue that's as far as Pippa and Martin to respond to Cormac and we take one more question and I might actually responding this way but just to follow on from what Marion said we have farmers and I am one we have so few routes to market you know we've a handful of meat processors if you're a dairy producer you know they're consolidating the creamries all the time you know back when I was a kid there was a there was a pig factory in my hometown there was a creamery back in the day there were there was local authority abattoirs so there was plenty of choice there people could bring their animal to the local abattoir could go to the local butcher I mean most butchers nowadays don't even have an abattoir out the back anymore they're shutting down all the time and again it comes down to leadership from the top government policy is allowing that to happen it's making it impossible for smaller local processors of milk or food or even you know vegetables as well that is not available now and that's that's the that's the main problem and you one thing that hasn't been mentioned is Borbia and one has to question in Borbia is subsidized to the tune of something like 40 million a year of taxpayers money and really what is it doing representing a handful of multinational multi-billion euro turnover businesses it is not representing Irish small farmers at all Martin do you want to just I concur with that last point Borbia something I have a big chip on my shoulder about because for years we've been giving them money and yet when we talked to the government about you know the price that the primary producers get in the farmer he said oh no that's got to do with us you know that's that's the market well the government is actually paying for the marketing so we should be something got to do with us but just to come back to the point the government made around masonite and you know the jobs are very welcome in masonite we have no issue with that the problem that I have is that and as you know there's whole town lands in leatrum that become covered in forestry there's whole like you're talking about one farm after another farm after another farm and when that farm is planted never again does it need a vet to come to look at a cow never again does it need a man to fix the tractor never again does the shed need to get a roof on it never again is there a bit of paint put in the gate never again is there a fence put up it's walked away from and gone forever and that's the problem that we've got it's a permanent change of land use and I would agree with karmic we would love to see every farmer planting a small portion of land but the problem we've got is that it is massive forest station that wipes out communities beside me in all of us we have a three teacher school and next year is going to be a two teacher school that's not because of forestry but forestry is part of the problem because we have fewer people living on the land living in the communities around us and we need to regenerate rural area if we're going to do that we have to do it together and we have to work together all right okay I find the question from Natasha and then we'll do do a quick wrap up Natasha. Very much, I'm from Council Eaterham subsistence farmer and I've been listening to night and I hear a lot of talk of global markets and funding and prices we're going to get for beef and I don't see at all any evidence that anybody has listened to Greta. We are in the sixth mass extinction at the minute if anybody realises we have ten years in which to stop the whole society crumbling and you're still talking about global business the whole food system is completely flawed we're talking about here's the headline climate change this is the biggest thing that's ever happened any world war any asteroid crashing into the earth you're talking about business what we need in Ireland and we are perfectly set to do is local resilient subsistence farmers providing food for local communities you talk about forest yeah it's great to have cells indoors but what we're doing is putting carbon dioxide into the air there'll be no future for our children to make doors we've got to take this on the head and realise we're in a complete emergency and forget about business capitalism is what's led us here we've got to change the catalyst system and we have to look at local with look at Sligo we've got great land we can produce fruit we can produce vegetables produce milk we can produce yogurt all the dairy products ourselves forget about getting money from abroad that's we're not living in that world anymore that world has got us to this point we have to make a considerable change and I wondered whether any of you would admit to this climate change and it's see what a disaster it is actually in the government because it's from what I see everybody's just pretending it's not catastrophe all right well I'll work Natasha's comments into a wrap-up she sees it as an emergency situation we were hearing from Kieran Hayes and suggested we've a long way to go and and Cormac talks about polarisation on a positive note to wrap up Martin Kenny are we are we getting there are we achieving what we want to achieve not yet I think we're I think we're still a long way from it I think until we get the sort of the notion into people's heads that this is real that it's going to happen you know and just to come back to the agriculture sector you know and I mentioned it to people earlier on like years ago there was many different industries in agriculture in Ireland that folded overnight and people had to switch in like we had a huge linen industry in Ireland and the next thing is cheap cotton came in from India the tour of the century and it just vanished and and we're at where we need to be able to you know change what we do fast not slowly and the problem with farmers is and I'm not being critical of farm the problem with farmers are very traditional they are they don't like to change what they've always done the risk avert they do what they've always done because the way it was always done I don't want to change it we're now at a point because of climate change where land use policy will have to happen fast we will have to change but I do think we can do it in a way that we have an opportunity that we can use biomass that we can use bio-digestion bio-digestion that we can use a whole range of things including solar energy all of those things but it has to be done a plan needs to be drawn up that we're going to make this happen in the next two to three years that's how quickly alright how do you feel about it you positive about our capabilities and desire to do something about it at the moment I'm not particularly positive no within within the agriculture sector we've since this is about agriculture we just focus on that I think this the change is that we're proposing or it's too slow it's too little you know it's too small it's piecemeal it's really not having any discernible effect on our own carbon emissions and with it you know within the sector so I think that's that's very obvious I think you know I can completely agree with that I think we should be feeding ourselves first you know both sort of actually and metaphorically within Ireland I think that that is something we should be focusing on and you know instead of you know feeding the world this sort of nonsense that we keep hearing which is a nonsense we're not we produce about less than 1% of the world's food you know in Ireland so we're not exactly feeding the world I just think I just yeah well I know but that's not the world that's that's 35 million people that's half a percent yeah yeah no I'm not I'm not but we we get told this is why it's so important to keep growing and keep producing more and more we don't need to produce you're not to encourage by the way I think I think we just need to focus on producing better or lesser less but better Thomas yeah and the Paris climate agreement said that sustainable food production must not be compromised in the climate debate we're one of the most sustainable places in the world to produce food we need a strife of all and said we need to get that message across better board be it does need to do a better job marketing our green credentials abroad the fact of our grass based were sustained we have clean water all our animals are outdoors for up to nine months of the year and so we have to keep going that way we are also come farmers can be part of the energy solution we can we need to be encouraged more renewables into the sector let it be solar let it be anaerobic digestion and get more of energy efficient as well at the same time and maintain a vibrant rural economy yeah okay Mary what are your own thoughts I suppose I'm I'm conflicted I'm listening to the subsistence farmer here and I listened earlier to the dairy farmer and you both have lives to lead and you both have families probably and you want to find a way of life that works and I don't think that we can sort of switch off the tap overnight and say we're not going to worry anymore about getting money from Europe we live in a globalized world we have to try and find solutions and I think some good work is certainly being done at European level I will agree it's not enough but it's not nothing it's quite substantial and we can't just say we're going to close off from the work we are part of the work and our responsibility is to try to shape European policy and hopefully that has an impact elsewhere so that we have sustainable food production but it doesn't happen without significant change I agree with you there and I'm not sure that the determination to have that change is there and I think we need to hear more Gretchen Thunbergs we need to be shocked to our core by listening to what's being said and it's not us against them and it's not farmers are to blame as I said over and back to Brussels I'm as much to blame as anyone else so we all have to look at how we live but I don't think I hear what you're saying about subsistence I don't think we can just come back to that maybe in 20 30 years time that's the way the world will be maybe that's how the world will be but we in Ireland are part of the global ice system now and what we have to try and do is make our production as sustainable as possible lower our carbon emissions in a meaningful and real way and make our contribution to a global effort that's what I think the best that we can do but we do need to be frightened more to change more and to make it better okay all right thank you always so well we should let me leave it there if you're pardoned upon I think lots of food for thought this evening it has been very enlightening I have to say I think for everybody concerned and I think rest assured that anybody was any doubt and I know we have we have Maria a European election candidate and we have a couple of local election candidates and you can rest assured I think this issue is uppermost in the minds of all those out campaigning for the right reasons thanks to the organizers thanks to our panel to marry into Thomas and to Pippa and Martin I forgot to say Pippa is standing in the next general election as well as the local election in Lee Shoffley isn't that right so we may have two and maybe maybe three TDs in future we'll see we never know Thomas you're not running as well yeah thanks you all again for coming out you know you're all busy and enjoy your bank holiday weekend thanks again thank you