Looks like me at DragonCon Well, I was looking back to say what did I say on September 1st 2007 and I said nothing not a thing So that kind of ruined that Yeah But I'm like a notification. You don't need yeah on September 2nd 2007 I said Tromping around you of I bringing back old memories brought back too many memories. They've surrounded us and help That's a good. That's a good one How do you how do you go all the way back? Do you just scroll? Oh, I downloaded my Twitter archive And then I have it on on on a hard drive time hop is much better for that time hops easier Yeah, and then on September 3rd. I was shooting some trap What does that mean? Trap shooting, you know, like ski shooting. Oh No, I don't know what that is You say Paul and they shoot a clay pigeon in the air.   Mm-hmm. I've never shot a gun. It's I BB gun. Does that count? Sure. Okay? I mean, yeah, I mean that's not something where I have to hold it with two hands or something You know, yeah, something that is something that you're not supposed to point at anything Correct. Yeah cause major damage. Yeah, no. Yes Something where if you if you accidentally even with your hand off the trigger start to point it at someone they freak out and push your hand away Yes, yeah, I've never done that never done that. Okay. I Have only shot long guns. I never shot a pistol So Sarah Lane, are you about ready? Yeah, just give me a second. I'm just kind of like Are you waiting for me to be ready? It's 130. We're ready to go. Okay, Sarah Land is ready to Len how do you feel about your art today? I think it's pretty good.  Well, you know, I'm gonna give it a hundred ten percent I give it a hundred ten percent, you know, I'm really happy for the guys that have made this all pulled together A lot of memories here. I don't know. I think it'll be funny. It was I think it's funny But everybody else will be like that's whatever dude. Yeah, the main story, right about about Apple should I don't know It should make sense easy. We should, you know Je suis content Je suis put One of these Fridays before show we'll we'll watch stuff from stairway to stardom. Have you ever heard of stairway to stardom? Yes Yeah, we watch it every other Yeah, we'll have to watch some of those and have Friday we'll start. Oh, yes Had Friday. It's okay though. Cuz cuz in today's drawing I drew the hats and even though none of us are See had Friday will Yes, we'll live on We don't have to actually wear the hats but yeah, I can try the hats so Yeah, I'm ready whenever you are Thomas. Okay Let's do this here. We go in three two Daily Tech news show is powered by you to find out more head to dailytechnewshow.com slash support This is the Daily Tech news for Friday September 1st 2017 I'm Tom Merritt along with Sarah Lane back on the show Hello, Tom Merritt. My setup is slightly different than it was last time. I was on the show about a couple weeks ago I I'm gonna try to you know, it Get myself up to a a more professional level cats included Cat on cue walking behind you well done Lucy. She is like a circus performer. You can get Yeah, so but yeah, I'm kind of in a cool transition of Making a home studio not unlike the one Tom that that you run and it's been challenging Continue to be Windows drivers did that today. Mm-hmm. That's fun project overall. I'm really looking good Yeah, yeah, you can make more on that to come later in the show Len Peralta here to illustrate the show as well How are you Len? I'm doing well. I'm doing really well It's getting ready for the holiday weekend. So here in the US. So it's good in celebration of the holiday weekend Sarah's new studio. No hats No hats because it's boiling out where I live and I don't want to increase any all of his hats caught a fire Terrible All right We're gonna talk about some some news around Apple regarding their original content and and why it seems that all the big tech companies Are banking on original content as part of their strategies, but let's start with a few tech things. You should know Microsoft announced the Windows 10 fall creators update will arrive October 17th This includes support for mixed reality headsets many of which also will launch October 17th Xiaomi confirmed on Wybo that it's going to announce the Mi Mix 2 phone at an event on September 11th, which yes is the day before Apple's event They love to do that Xiaomi's new phone is expected to have almost no bezel and I'm just wondering Why do we all hate bezels so much? There's a war on bezels. Yeah, it's okay No, no bezels. I'm calling it now five years from now. There's gonna be like a bezel nostalgia movement Sure. Yeah, I remember. Yeah, I would remember the the subtle framing The US state of California has granted Samsung permission to test autonomous cars on public roads Samsung doesn't plan to build their own car, but they do want to make control systems for self-driving cars The US National Labor Relations Board filed a complaint against Tesla claiming that Tesla violated workers rights in its confidentiality agreement the NLRB believes that the agreement is written as written could borrow workers from discussing safety issues Working conditions stuff like that Tesla has until September 14th to respond with a hearing scheduled for November 14th in Oakland, California Yeah, so you can tell your workers not to discuss trade secrets. You can't tell them don't discuss anything Even if you get hit by an anvil don't Yeah, you've got to be able to at least talk about some stuff Here are some more top stories TCL marketing manager Stefan Streit told Android Planet that TCL will produce new products under the palm brand In early 2018 now the devices are likely to be phones They're likely not to run web OS the palm the last palm OS because web OS is owned by LG And is used on its TVs But TCL owns the palm name and they can put it right alongside other phones They make for Alcatel and Blackberry in their suite of nostalgia phone names Streit said the palm devices would probably be marketed at older users Alcatel's kind of marketed at the Millennials Blackberry for business and then palm for us But but but but do people have nostalgia for the palm name? That's why I do my question You do you would like you would like something to be called palm again. I okay I have nostalgia for the palm name as your question was originally phrased. I'm like, ah palm I remember palm. I love my palm. Do I want to buy a phone with palm name on it? Don't know well see that maybe they want to market to more of a millennial and post millennial group I don't know for the retro for the feeling of it for people who are just like palm That's a cool name never heard of it. Yeah, you can fly Pan Am and use your palm Moving on to Facebook Facebook has two billion users It's a lot of users but it's keeping tabs on billions more In fact the social network now knows where 7.5 billion humans live all over earth and that is within 15 feet of accuracy claims Facebook anyway, which is nuts The company says it's created a data map of the planet's entire population at least humans by combining Census numbers from governments and then information they're pulling from satellites the company also says it built the mapping tech itself to better understand Precise distribution of humans around the planet and what types of internet services are best for them They're talking about space internet a lot in the CNBC story And that's as before you get too freaked out about Facebook knowing where you live They don't know where you live that yet they haven't yet matched up their two billion users with these seven half million addresses It's more about knowing the distribution of people on the planet so that they can put the planes in the air Where the people are to deliver the internet to them But they really are they use the word space broadband at one point. You're kind of a just a you know kind of a Facebook has counted you as a warm body not a zombie that might want better internet But knowing Facebook there's always more to this than just hoping people get online. Yeah, I do want I'd they say Facebook says that knowing where people live means that delivering internet from space Will be the better way to hook up cities, especially cities that are underserved right now completely makes sense from a bird's-eye view Yeah, I would you could if you see a cluster of folks that are underserved then build out some infrastructure Sharp announced its 70 inch aquas 8k TV with a resolution of 76 80 by 43 20 Which many of you I know right now in your head are insisting on calling 43 20p or maybe even like well That's actually 4k But they call it 8k so we'll just have to live with that for now The aquas 8k is compatible with Dolby vision HDR and Bda HDR which is for Blu-ray the 8k TV We'll roll out later this year in China and Japan It will arrive in Taiwan in February and then in Europe They're just gonna basically take the same model and turn it into an 8k monitor So it'll be a 70 inch 8k monitor for your computer called the LV 70x 500 e that comes to Europe in March Sharp previously sold an 85 inch 8k monitor for more than a hundred thousand dollars But this new one is expected to be a lot cheaper somewhere under ten thousand dollars And of course Sharp will have to create some content for it if people want to watch anything on it because NHK I think in Japan is the only place doing any kind of 8k programming and you know $100,000 is that well, that's a crazy number, but so it was ten thousand. I mean, yeah You're really trying to move some merch you Was able to bring down the price a bit if I was able to add ten thousand dollars to the DTS patreon I could think of a much better way of spending it. Oh, no, no, no, definitely got the 8k monitor. Just no All right, I'll have to think about that But yeah, I mean I actually I did get a 4k monitor But for long or 4k TV, which is really a 2k TV I know but for a long time I was I was thinking well Maybe I won't even get a 4k because my 1080p TV was just working fine And there wasn't that much 4k content out and I'm like maybe I'll skip to 8k But I don't know what you need it for because when you're sitting at couch depth you can't really tell it's 8k So I'm still waiting for the good compelling reasons. Here's the thing keep your 8k hate To yourself for now send me reasons why I would want an 8k. It's easy to come up with reasons Why I don't want to spend this money, but if you've got her it's like Oh, no, here's the compelling reason for 8k send it to us feedback at Daily Tech News Show.com Hurricane Harvey Devastating for the people and the pets of Houston. We stand with you Houston But there are new options that keep emerging to help out in fact Buzzfeed points out a couple apps You might already use for other things that have proven very helpful in Houston as of late One is called Zelo. It's an app that pretty much acts like a walkie-talkie. So it's audio back and forth It's seen its Houston area app opens rise 600% since Harvey hit because audio works uniquely well to convey information and emotion and Urgency things like that neighborhood based social app next door, which I've used with varying results because it's kind of gossipy But it's seen its users start posting information about rescue needs Donation lists people with boats available to help in rescue efforts stuff like that Obviously traditional 911 calls would be the way to go to an emergency But so many people aren't able to get through either some nice new options. Yeah I mean, this is this is a really compelling story The the one particularly about next door, which like you say a lot of times is gossipy or people sniping at each other And it shows that it's not the tool. That's the problem. It's the user Because in in this case when people need each other all of that went away And this this one they have in the Buzzfeed story it rescue desperately needed at 6,007 Worcester court four feet of water in the house and rising occupants headed to the roof with animals and then the response is Unloading canoe now, but yeah, wow exactly. I mean it's it's it's Yeah, you want to be working it as real-time as possible. So it's really cool that this has been Yeah, I've been working for and again We're not suggesting that you rely on these sorts of things instead of emergency services But when emergency services are down and you're looking for other ways to get the word out It's great Absolutely, and it's you know, not that people don't have obviously really Facebook groups that have been successful In order to to connect folks and get the word out but these sort of smaller Apps that don't do everything and aren't really known as like a social network for everything to emerge As a place where literally lives are being saved is awesome And Zelo apparently integrates with land-based radio So you can actually call someone on an actual walkie-talkie from the Zelo app Oh, really? I thought it just emulated the idea of a walkie-talkie. That's very cool. I don't know how many people have walkie-talkies these days, but There you go Well, a lot of times rescue organizations will have them because that they help rely on them But yeah, so it's it's a great you're right. It's a great example of like I don't know how useful this is in normal everyday life But then suddenly in this situation it becomes incredibly useful You know what else is is great. Sarah. What smiles? Oh, I love a good smile. Yeah, that hollow note song Well, that doesn't have an h on it. So let's not talk about that. Sorry. I forgot about that But you can pay with your smile now diners at kpro a new restaurant in hongshu china Have the opportunity to pay by smile Yum china runs kpro and partnered with ant financial. Uh, holy owned alibaba operation I don't know.  This one's a kfc, but it's a high end right yum brands And we're getting closer to demolition man every day Yeah, I I laugh but I would totally try it if it came to my neighborhood Oh, I mean, this is kind of gimmicky, but it's very gimmicky But facial recognition to pay if you can make it secure Which is a big if I mean it's pretty great, right?  What if you like to wear a grill here on there now? It's going to get complicated because you have to you know Your authentic smile whenever I have my grill on I can still use windows. Hello to log into my surface book Well, then we're onto something Yeah Yeah, we've discovered all kinds of things Hey, anyway, check that out. Let's know what you think and get all the tech headlines each day In about five minutes by subscribing to daily tech headlines dot com. You can get it as a podcast You can get it on the amazon echo as a flash briefing You can get it on google home through the anchor service and of course you can get it from anchor directly In the anchor app. It just gets you up to date It is kind of the first of what I want to call dts labs Experiments that we tried and this one worked and we'd like to do more like that. So check it out daily tech headlines Dot com and that is a look at our top stories Now apple insider noticed that apple's leadership page no longer lists syrie Under eddie q instead. It's been moved to being listed under craig federighi's responsibilities federighi senior vice president of software engineering Q runs internet and software services. So for syrie That could mean that syrie is now thought of more as an operating system type product rather than a service type product But don't forget that q also Is the guy who? Overseas jaymea erlekt and zack van amberg to former sony television execs who were recently hired by apple And report to q there's that wall street jone report out there kicking around as well sarah that apple plans to spend a billion dollars on original content Right. You know apple's already gotten into original content You know to to to a small extent, but the financial times is also reporting When we're while we're on the subject of original content that apple is in discussion to lease a space in the culver studios that's here in los angeles which is Kind of historic really one time home to uh gone with wind. They shot that there the andy griffith show Lassie so it's dating some of us who remember these shows But still very cool space and very big and culver city is also has the sony lot It's a you know, it's a bit of a company town Previously deadline reported that amazon was interested in space in the same area as well And the financial times also reports apple could be planning a drama that would star jennifer aniston and Reese weatherspoon Who i like both of those actresses very much? I would like to watch that much more than I enjoyed planet of the apps Uh, planet of the let's we really that planet of the apps is the uh first generation apple maps of of its stuff I think the originals will get better Already the carpool karaoke one is better. Have you seen the one with sophie turner and mazy williams from game of thrones? Yes, I I Those are the sorts of like clickbait things that I have no control over myself with you know Game of thrones people behind the scenes. Yeah, and they're truly friends. You can tell in this thing But jamie jennifer aniston and reese weatherspoon. That's that's another level reese weatherspoon does hbo stuff She does oscar winning movies So apple getting into that game made me realize Well, okay apple wants to make original content at that level now because they want to compel people to buy their products Whether it's tablets phones apple tv's whatever Uh, netflix obviously did that because they were afraid of losing too many of their deals So they wanted to have compelling content of their own facebook now just rolling out its watch tab with original content I was watching jessica alba Tell me great tips for nutrition. They were actually really good tips too That was on facebook this morning Then you've got youtube google's youtube making youtube red And doing higher level stuff now than than they were before and obviously amazon originals amazon's been doing that for a Wow and the tick is their most recent example All of these big these are the big ones right? This is google amazon facebook Really microsoft is the only one not in this game. They had the halo originals, but then they kind of backed off of that Why do you think that is that all of these huge tech companies? That in one breath people are criticizing for having too much power are scrambling to become producers of original content It's a great question. I I know that that That everyone At least who works at the the large companies like to say that video is the future You know, I know a lot of consumers who don't necessarily feel that way I love a good drama um, I You know, I think really that the biggest issue that I have is Well, there are a finite number of hours in the day and there's just only so much content that I can consume But you could say that about podcast too and I I get through quite a few of those I I think the more competition we have and the more Especially high quality original content that comes out there, you know That cream will rise to the top not everybody's going to be successful Netflix has already said they'd rather spend a lot more money And try a lot more things and just and just kill them kill a show if it's not doing well and let the hits become hits You know the next house of cards that sort of thing Uh, and it seems to me like all of the companies that are big enough to to to blow some money on some Misses are the ones that will end up succeeding the most Why microsoft isn't making more of a play here or why they're behind that? I don't know Yeah, and and I wonder if it really is going to be a problem for them I mean netflix makes the most sense to do this amazon with its amazon prime video sense Makes makes a lot of sense has also had some hits already. So it's like it's a it's a model that's proving to work for them Yeah, and I guess what apple thinks is we're going we have we have a service. It's called itunes It's a store and we also have a service that's subscription. It's called apple music So maybe we can put some compelling original content in one or both of those places And that will help us sell some hardware as well It's funny that apple still I complain about this like once every six months But it's like you got apple music and you've got itunes and you're trying to figure out how to put original video content into Uh software programs that are called that but that's just I don't know why we still have anything called itunes I where you buy movies If I may interject I I would say that Partially it's because they want you to buy into their ecosystem and by doing that you're kind of Maybe not compelled, but you would be a lot more Open to using their other services since you would say hey, you know what I already have amazon prime These the first season of the I did this with uh the expanse the first season was free Watch this like oh, I really want to see how this turns out So I went out and I spent the 30 bucks for season two And so I think the idea is that once they get Kind of crash wave putting it but once they get their hooks in you they've basically Uh built themselves a loyal consumer who will now then you know If not 100 of the time at least 80, you know 60 to 80 percent of the time buy within the apple universe or the amazon universe or whatever universe so there you have, you know, uh An idealized customer right one that you can be pretty sure totally and and the question then becomes All right, if you've got amazon spending four and a half billion you've got netflix spending six billion an apple Spending a billion starts to look like chump change at that point Uh, is this something that the networks that the traditional content producers Need to worry about should they be locking people in should they be doing more? What cbs is doing with cbs all access and saying star trek only available on our service and is that good for us?  Oh, sorry.  Roger. Oh, no I was about to say it's it kind of depends right if For cbs. It's great for for the consumer I mean now that are put again Possibly in the position where hey, we wanted everything to be a la carte so we can pick and choose and Now we just have to pick and choose between these vertically integrated You know services And we might be paying more than we wanted to But we really love this show because it's so awesome And the great thing about content that you produce is that it adds a back catalog, right? Because now Unlike technology you can resell a 10 year old show back to someone versus a 10 year old iphone It's an asset. Yeah, they you can continue to monetize You can also it's a little smoke and mirrors, but you know how the latest version of the apple tv software We kind of group all of your apps together in this watch area that apple Right, right the tv app. Yeah, which I just I don't know. I started to hook everything up And I was like, yeah, I already know how the apps work I only like open up three of them anyway on a regular basis But I think that that's also a way for a company like apple and really anybody who makes hardware To kind of like keep you from remembering that you're going to the cbs all access app, right? It's still under some apple umbrella of content. So there's a psychological Shift, I think going on there Particularly when you're a company that wants to move hardware merchandise That this all starts to feel like it's related. Yeah, absolutely. I think I think apple Apples fight with the movie studios over pricing for for breaking the window The studios are ready to break the window the 90-day window with theaters. It's just a matter of pricing And and and the other Argument over 4k pricing is because apple wants you to forget that those movies are coming from anyone but apple When you watch handmade stale on hulu, they want you to think oh, I'm watching it on my apple tv app And so having that Reese witherspoon jennifer aniston show It's just another way to say like oh, well if you want all tv Netflix hulu everything without having to worry about where it comes from you get our Device and that that's the new battlefield, isn't it? Seems to be the case and I'm interested in this facebook watch original content push as well I I I actually know somebody who's launching a show on on the platform today. I haven't seen it yet But that's going to be a whole other thing, you know The facebook has just a couple of hits where you start associating facebook with Sure, your timeline and messenger and people's photos and all sorts of stuff But also a high quality show that you enjoy that you go to facebook to watch then You know Well Facebook doesn't lose anybody anytime soon. Yeah. Yeah, I watched watched another one on facebook this morning from the Me Too network, which is a a hispanic network a latino network And it was a guy with his mom Introducing her to movies and not only was he talking to her about terminator, but they were like reenacting scenes together It was the cutest thing I've ever seen and it was really high level production value. It looked really good That's so good where and they were just independent producers before Uh, no, they're a network, uh, and and now they're you know getting some of that facebook money Yeah, well, I mean, hey, that's uh, okay, you know eat mad atcha No Hey, thanks to everybody who participates in our subreddit You can submit stories and vote on them at daily tech news show dot reddit dot com And we have a facebook group of our own at facebook.com slash groups slash daily tech news show another thing We get to deliver you is mike ranges monthly tech views mike is hilarious And he writes up a great take on the month's tech news every month that you can find at daily tech news show dot com He is here to tell you a little bit about what to expect as he reviews august It's time to see what the monthly tech views has learned from august tech stories Spoiler alert surprisingly little For those of us having trouble wrapping our heads around the concept of bitcoin being real money New entrant in the market bitcoin cash arrives to put our minds at ease Because having two money related terms in its name makes it obviously twice as real And let's face it even if you accepted his currency Bitcoin just doesn't sound like much. It's just a coin Something your computer savvy grandpa digs out of his pocket so he can dazzle you with the old What's this in your ear trick? But bitcoin cash Now you're talking cash fold the money No, you can't actually fold it because it's still on a computer somewhere and it still isn't real money But it sounds like it is and perception is everything when it comes to marketing But even bitcoin cash's relevance is doomed to be short-lived inevitably eclipsed by bitcoin cash fat stacks Get more of the monthly tech views this weekend at daily tech news show dot com I'm definitely going to get on the ico for bitcoin fat stacks Thank you mike range daily tech news show dot com a quick message coming to us Thanks again for the shows. It's much appreciated just a comment about 3107 as someone in their mid 40s Who's in fairly good shape? I have to wonder what this fitness tracker craze is even about If you just want to be in good shape You just have to have a good diet and exercise moderately three times a week It is much better to have interval training than something like running or biking because it helps your metabolism I can see if you are an extreme athlete or have a medical need But for most people just doing the basics seems to be enough. Does a fitness tracker really get you there better? I'm skeptical Well, okay First of all, congratulations for being in pretty good shape. It sounds like you're you know, you eat well and you exercise well but I think A fitness tracker isn't going to somehow make you a better Interval trainer But I think that there are sort of fun little milestones that you can play with yourself I know I do that I happen to love the stationary bike, you know, it's like I'll you know get to a certain calorie count or I'll get to a certain You know, I've puddled however many miles and yeah, I play a little game so having a fitness tracker seems like just another layer to Sort of have fun with stats. I think that's why a lot of people like it Not because they've really changed their workout regimen much It's a motivational thing. It says hey, you know what? I'm gonna I'm gonna be able to to get myself to do this thing now Alan there are emailer here apparently doesn't have that problem, which is great and not everybody does But if you do this might be the thing that gets you off your butt to do those three times a week exercises The thing to keep in mind though is that there have been at least one study That found that people using fitness trackers gained weight and again Fitness and and and exercise are not necessarily the same as gaining or losing weight But it was because when people wore fitness trackers they felt healthier and therefore let themselves have more snacks because hey I'm fit. I'm working out. I've got the stats to prove it. So that's something to watch out for I I think you know, it's definitely true that when I have a great workout week. I eat more ice cream Yeah No, it's the way it goes in my household. It's one of the reasons I don't even work out and I just eat ice cream Or that you know, so you why just go go straight to the joy roger I've got I've got a stepper move It's one of the reasons that exercise isn't necessarily correlated directly with weight loss. It's just part of being healthier It's good for your heart and all kinds of other reasons Lead peralta. Thank you for being with us today and illustrating as always. What have you got in your illustration pocket today? Oh, well, you know, I'm pretty excited to hear what apple studios has to has to offer I know none of their original content has been announced although that jennifer aniston reese witherspoon thing sounds pretty interesting And this is what I think it may may be Uh, you know, they apple is holding back some big announcements, which of course is adding you Uh, and uh, and sarah and roger and I to a show called the apple dumping gang Which is which is not a you know, uh, is that some merit or grumpy cat? We know what a little bit of both. Yeah, it's uh, it's uh, it's not a reboot of apple dumpling gang But I guess you'll have to work it out. Who's tim conway who is uh done nods That's fantastic. This is the best movie poster I've ever seen. Yeah, I'm excited to see it Hopefully, uh, they'll work out for you guys. So, uh, we'll go check it out. Lynn Peralta store.com and in a moment I'll tell you a way that you might be able to get it for free someday Around for that. Uh, thank you sarah lane for joining us. What do you got to tell folks about? Uh, well as I mentioned at the start of the show for anybody who jumped in later I I'm in the process of putting together a home studio that is more complicated than anything I've Tried before and um, it's a work in progress But I have just off camera lots of boxes and various cables. Uh, some of them Never know some of them are not so it's going to be a really fun labor day weekend here Laboring away on your new studio. It is a really fun project though. So I'm I'm I'm thrilled to be doing it Well, that's good to know, uh, because uh, we have some new things to announce for the dts patron as well Thanks to everybody who gives us a little value back already at patreon.com Slash dts. Thanks to you. We are able to expand what we want to do But we need your help to get there. So we're starting a new patreon push We haven't done this in literally years if we can reach 20 000 a month on patreon We can add the following a monthly round table show on the last friday the final friday of every month I know a bunch of you in our survey said round table show. That's what I want. Uh, so we'll be expanded It'll be longer than a normal dts. We have more people on it We'll have a regular crew but also rotating guest spots and we'll talk more about the tech topics And you'll even have a way to have an effect on what we talk about We're also going to rev up something that I alluded to earlier in the show called dts labs Which is a chance for our co-host to try out shows. So the way I did daily tech headlines I just started trying it out and it kind of caught on and now we it's a regular part of the staple Uh, Scott Johnson would like to do a show about the tech he uses for his art Veronica has talked about maybe doing some kind of bot briefing or something like that. Patrick's got ideas as well So we want to create dts labs where we can try out stuff and just put it in the feed patrons We'll get it first. It'll go in the rest of the feed for everybody else If something catches on we may be able to spin it out as its own show and To help motivate these things we're creating a new tier called the advisor level Which gets you a couple of ways to help make the show including picking topics for that roundtable show Joining video hangouts that we're going to be doing as part of the dts labs And you get a free digital piece of art from len peralta every month len's going to pick One of his favorites from the back catalog and we'll deliver it to you through patreon Thank you len for being willing to do that. Appreciate it Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think it's going to these sound really exciting and just uh If I don't know if you're not if you're not jumping on board with this I don't know what it's going to take So if you're already backing us, thank you and take a look at our rewards See if there's anything that might entice you up to that level and if you're not backing us Now's the time to help get us to that next level because the other thing we want to do Is bring sarah lane onto the show every day Yay Alice and sheridan popped in to welcome you uh sarah. Oh, that was that was that was the din of applause got it I was like did someone just sigh heavily? I hope this works. This looks great Yeah, me too. Uh tom and I have um Have have kind of kicked around the idea of how could we make something like this work? We used to do tnt together and it was always really fun and daily tech news is something that Every time I dip out of it. I always really miss it And I like the team that's in place here so much already and I would love to be part of the team full time. So So everything that's described is is is in addition to me joining the show So unless you don't like me very much, hopefully that it seems like a really good reason to maybe bump up to advisor level Or or start contributing Hey, so you were kidding about that tv then? You don't think you should get that display instead Oh, no, my goodness. No I I I think you know come on. It's an ak tv versus At wealth of knowledge. Yes, exactly. No, I absolutely am Over the moon that sarah is able to do this So I just need your help to make it happen. Uh, we're going to keep roger on as our producer We're going to keep all of our co-hosts on Helping out the show all we want to do is be able to add sarah into the mix and of course do the monthly round table and dts labs So once again, if you if you can help us make that happen If you've been on the fence about contributing to the show if you're looking at it You're like, I guess maybe I could do five dollars a month. We've got great rewards You get an exclusive weekly column We have a special round table show right now that will keep around as a new thing A new 30 minute monthly special that'll be a bonus just for the co-executive producers We'll have business cards and all that sort of thing. So patreon.com slash dts. Thank you sarah Thank you everybody and especially tom for for uh for you know, potentially making this happen and Like I mentioned, I've I've I've kind of got this studio to play with so when you mentioned dts labs I know we didn't talk about any additional content that I might be able to do from here, but If the audience wants it if enough people are interested in something that that we don't do yet that you'd like to see I am all ears because we're we're kind of a clean uh blank slate right now So here's the thing if we get to 20 000 by october 1st done deal If we don't hit 20 000 by october 1st. It's not off. We'll reassess and we'll talk to you then so Wait, let's just get it done by october 1st. All right. Hey, uh, thanks to everyone who is supporting the show Our email address is feedback at daily tech news show dot com We're live monday through friday at 4 30 p.m. Eastern 20 30 utc at alpha geek radio dot com at diamond club dot tv And our website is daily tech news show dot com no show on monday We're off for the american labor day, but we'll see you tuesday with patrick bezia and rob reed to talk about quantum computing Talk to you then This show is part of the frog pants network get more at frog pants dot com Diamond club hopes you have enjoyed this program So I don't have to give back my dts shirt then no hell no Okay, okay. Well, I wore it. I thought maybe it was my last time, you know, yeah, no not at all get shirts I couldn't be more excited. I really hope this works. This is so cool Me too and I you know, it's obviously it's you know, it's a big milestone and and I just feel optimistic about it. Um, it's certainly something that I want to do and uh, it would hopefully just be a great way for Yeah, the family that I'm that I've I've I've had with me for so long Just kind of stays together to the chagrin of roger chang. I'm sure but you know, hey Why would it be? No, I'm just kidding roger and I go all the way back to college. So yeah Our first desktop editing class together. It's true. Oh my god I didn't realize it with I knew I went back to college. I didn't realize that that's hilarious Yeah, it was desktop video. It was like the first year in our In our major that yeah, you know, while we were there they created a A class called desktop video and we all kind of like We're trying to figure out phase I still remember instructor She was uh, she was right She was She was she was she was good. She's a good teacher. She was a great teacher She was actually also part of the group that gave us strays The move the horror movie where the stray cats attack everyone in that cabin in the woods I don't know Having that movie made right before you said that uh sarah's cat walked by but then disappeared but then showed up just in I swear she can speak english. She doesn't Or she can she can understand english. She doesn't speak it very well, but she does She it's it's like she just knows when I wake up even if I haven't moved So that then she starts howling at me for breakfast 5 36 a.m. You know great great time for a cat to be yelling in your face She's just you know animals. They've got a they've got a sixth sense Okay, well, I just wanted to jump and say congratulations in the in advance and I sure hope this works But I got to run off and do another show. All right. Have a good show. Alison. Thanks again. Yeah, Alison. Bye guys Bye I'm thinking uh, we can go through the the suggestions at showbot.tv. I bet they can pay with a smile Yes, I am good with that. Pay with a smile. AK is looking pretty sharp Uh, we also have Um, can I play pay with a week and a smile? That's the one tom loves his palm. Who does it? Really? Who doesn't love their palm? True and uh I can't tell if you realize what you're saying or not right now Dirkus cats included no hats War on bezels bezel nostalgia moment impending bezel nostalgia uh palm on pan m and uh H Hate cares gonna hate k. Oh, I see Haters gonna. Yeah. Yeah. I pays a smile register your face demolition man come true Uh, that's gonna cost you a million dollar smile fedorichi jumps the queue A new lane for d tns Hmm Ah Get it Uh, hats a flame or maybe sarah way you could back us That's both dad jokey, but also supreme very punny very punny. Yeah Well, that's all dad. Do we have we updated the patreon video right now? No, uh, I need to do that right now Because once we do then I can you know, I will start sharing that Let me uh, let me do that. Well. Okay. What are we gonna title this? Uh, did you want to say can I pay with a wink and a smile? Is that what you Pay with a wink and a smile Or how about just pay with a smile?  I don't see how you're gonna use that on the desk Unless you plan on building like a operation center Stick it on the wall, but the 8k one. Yeah Like a 30 inch monitor is kind of big for a desk That's not a desktop monitor Hey Oh, hi Hello shannon Hi, how are you? Good. Good You're noise cancer Oh boy Where are you? I'm in my car. I'm running errands today oil change Oh, thanks for cat food. Thanks for dropping in. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um, congratulations on the whole patreon thing as well Don't congratulate us yet We need to get there No, no, no, no, it's it's we we made the announcement. I just mean we haven't hit the 20,000 yet. Yeah Okay, you already you already announced that I was like, did I break the news? No, no, no, no, sorry Okay, good So congratulations on the announcement Yes Good luck on a pizza Yeah, so i'm trying to Publish the show and change the uh The video video I hope that patreon can figure out uh team member accounts and yes That would be very handy I can make the youtube video public That's easy So what else is going on shannon Not much that's about it Is it hot over there? Is it like triple digits hot? Yes, it is very hot like I am sweating my my arm pits off Right now That's um quite an image It's horrible It's so bad like I moved away from the midwest just for this reason because it used to get so hot and human out there And now today I was just like nope. I'm moving back to the midwest can't stand it Yeah It's the one thing that kind of makes you want to go out and run Run out and buy in a little one of those portable ac units Right because most places in the berry do not have air conditioning because it doesn't get that hot most of the year Yeah, that's true. I mean, um, my place doesn't have ac So usually in the summertime if it's this bad, we'll just turn on a Like slew of fans across the household and you know, we deal with it We open the fridge or something and it's good enough, but that's pretty much all we can do Um, all right, yeah, yeah, patreon video is is now up Sweet Echo echo Hey I know it's it's my fault. No, no, it's okay. It's almost it's enough of the delay You could just stop and hear yourself and like, okay, I definitely said that Oh, roger from the future. Yeah, okay. No echo. I think if I mute it you guys can't hear it So I could just unmute myself whenever I want to talk That's not convenient. It's like a cb radio. You really are from the midwest breaker one nine 10 4 What's your 10 20? There's a smoke key. There's a bear in the air All right, so sarah the video she should confirm that you can see the video, but it should be let's see. I just loaded it up Oh, that's us. All right Oh, I remember those faces I love that such what a great great still of us, you know tom's kind of It kind of looks like you guys are trying to do a karaoke duet It's I mean it it it felt like that Kind of at the time it's it's funny how um tom's setup is it's so perfect for one person But you really got to shove the second person in that shot So I okay. I changed to a different still. I don't know how long it'll take to refresh. Okay I like that still because you looked good In that still You should put like a like a karaoke line at the bottom there. We may need to ask roger to create a still All right Okay, yeah, I mean because in the second one that you loaded like I just sort of a like mid Word, I'm looking at you. So it's just kind of yeah. I mean honestly, it's whatever everybody likes is yeah roger Can you capture a better picture of us? Yes? I can do that and then upload that as a custom thumbnail. That'd be great. You can just do that in youtube and it'll happen everywhere Well, I got through an entire episode of dts using uh a Windows 10 laptop. Oh, yeah, so okay. We had a little driver issue right at the beginning Um, but otherwise once you got going how was it? Well, uh, it's you know, it's funny. It's like For for many many many years. I never uh was a mac user. Um, I really wasn't until I left g4 I didn't particularly like The idea of having a mac because I don't know, you know, I was part of the windows side of the war but uh, but so it's like it's not like I'm using this and thinking You know, what are my hotkeys? It's like it's all sort of muscle memory, but um, but uh This particular laptop is I mean, I'm still sort of right clicking on a separate button and it just is I've gotten so used to my macbook pro way of life and for Several years now. That's the only computer I've had so now I've got sort of this windows machine I got a monitor up here. I feel like it looks pretty good, but I yeah, I need to Uh, just need to get faster on the keys. Yeah, the hotkeys are the are the are the thing too yeah Especially I use one keyboard for both and so I'm always when I'm using os 10 or mac os on this Keyboard I'm always like, all right. The windows key is the apple key. Remember that I'm used to it now But for it took me a while to get used to that Yeah, where is there there is one key on this On this little guy that I don't understand. It looks like a gear Oh, that's um It's a control key function key gear key and then alt over on the bottom left It's not the windows key. Oh Well, let's well, I guess it is the window. Why does it look like that? They just changed the icon so that it would not be neutral in case you plugged it into a mac os. I guess, I don't know Oh Well, there you have it. That's actually very convenient. I'm going to use it all the time windows d That was my first big tip on the screensavers was windows d Uh, I don't even remember what windows d does do the desktop So it basically takes all the windows and minimum. It doesn't minimize them technically. It just brings the desktop forward Got it. Yeah, I mean, I still use hot corners in os 10 And I in fact, I was fighting with a friend about this the other day and he was like What like nobody uses those. What are you crazy? And it's like, no, it's a workflow that works for me That's how I get to my desktop as quickly as possible or when I have I want to see all windows It's like you take hot key hot corners away from me my my My life, uh, is over Wow Is that too dramatic? No, just dramatic enough. I'm I rue the the next mac os announcement the deprecates that They'll they better not they better not. No, it's fine. I'll work it out Apple that oh, totally. Yeah, there'll be some third party. Yeah T2 t2 says the new page on video is full of great pause screens and then has an imager link that I'm afraid to click Oh, that's actually not that bad here. That's kind of cute Here Hi It looks like you are singing karaoke I That's a good that's a good one. Tom is sort of like I think Oh, I'm Ron Burgundy healthy Are you the main Stay classy world Someone uh psl2c asked if the announcement was if I was going to be on dts every day Yes, Len we're gonna make Should be on dts every single day. I know that'd be crazy You would be drawing so much. That's all right. I draw every day anyway, so Well, there's lots of nice feedback in my in my twitter replies so far So thank you to everybody who is red chat room had had good reaction to good And I'm updating the description of the uh, are you waiting for anybody else to call in? Uh, no, just you and Allison everybody else is like traveling or headed off to the weekend and stuff dragging con Always with dragon king dragon con, man I totally wish I was at dragon con though, but unfortunately I couldn't go this year Roger said it was hot there too Yeah, I just anything over 75 is concerned hot by me Actually very nice here today And the humidity and it's I mean like is the south all that humid because I figured you need to be closer No, wait, there is a major Rip body of water Ireland isn't there. No, I could be wrong. It was just very cute like here. It's very nice here It's in the mid 60s today. I'm going to the greek festival and I'm gonna wear a hoodie. It's Nice Can you get suvaki heroes cutos tonight, man Poo I can do that because see I work out.  It's going to 11 o'clock tonight. It's until monday. Just come for the greek festival. Stay for my spaghetti dinner Oh, no, we don't do the spaghetti dinner anymore.  You don't No, because I don't have to make no spaghetti I know I have to make I don't have to make dinner on fridays anymore. So And nor hate spaghetti. So she doesn't make it doesn't like spaghetti. She doesn't like Robert bulls is emphatically in favor Of sarah during the show Yay, thanks rob This is exciting Sarah, how have you been? I haven't seen you in like a few days. I know It's been a long time Um, I've been good. I am trying not to melt down here In la it's been so miserable. I know where rogers side of town is worse Or hotter anyway, so um, you know trying to keep cool, but It's it's been really very summery Um, the last couple days I had um had lunch with heather frank yesterday. She's doing a bunch of cool new projects and And I'm just kind of talking to her about fun ideas that you know that she has producers bouncing ideas off of each other and um And yeah, I've got the studio that I need to set up and I have a lot of work to do in fact jeff zimmer lin who I um Used to he's been intern at revision three And has since gone on to start a software company called rundown creator and has been doing it for a long time He's been gracious enough to to offer to come over and help me put this stuff in order and He's sort of a studio whiz, so I'm gonna get his one of those and and then figure out what I'm missing and then have him come save me And it starts with that stupid mixer that I probably have to just send back I don't even know how to use mixers like the only one I understand is uh Tri-caster, I think that's the name of it But the black magic that we have at hack five. I just I don't even understand the thing I just know where the buttons are that I'm supposed to press But if anything gets out of whack, I just I don't know what to do Yeah, there's a black magic video mixer that I'm gonna be adding to my little repertoire You know at some point That guy seems pretty straightforward as long as it's you know hooked up correctly It's my audio mixer that I just had a little trouble with the show today And I just should have trouble started troubleshooting earlier. I just didn't get any of this stuff till this morning so You know how it is these projects always end up being slightly more complicated than You hope but then you learned a lot too And then and then when you get there, it's all worth it Yeah I've been looking into I want to develop out the hack five studio so that we have better audio and better Lighting because right now it's a little dark and we have issues with the way that it was set up by the previous Person that was there who worked the studio, but now that I'm in charge. I'm just like I don't know where to start But I know that we have a lot of issues and I really want to fix them I'm just like, where do I look for all that information? So it's it's tough if you've never been trained on studio Engineering or studio management and I'm just trying to figure out everything on my own Yeah, it really I also working in video As we all are familiar with for so many years Audio is really important. You know when audio isn't good, but it's like It's like a whole other language. Even if you like I worked in newsrooms. It's it's it's been a lot of YouTube tutorials Yeah, I usually find what I'm looking for eventually somebody out there has asked the same question That's sort of the nice thing about it Like you just have to find that question and then the person who answered it correctly People will forgive bad video sooner than they will forgive bad audio because you really key on audio Yeah, I would say if you want to just start just start with working on the audio So acoustics Like if there's you know, kind of echoing or reverberation off different pieces or anything off the walls We have all the problems in the world We have Issues like the echo which we have the things to fix it. I just need to put them all up And then we have a stereo issue where like sometimes it's louder on the left side than the right side And I know how to fix it in post But we need to fix it before it gets to post because sometimes I forget So wait, maybe it comes it comes record it records with one audio channel being louder than another The that's probably a mixer issue that you need to Recalibrate typically with a mixer. You just want to set everything down The one thing I think Sarah remembers this from college when you take audio production They kind of really They in the labs they really drill drill into you how to like manage a mixer And so you want to just kind of put everything back in neutral where you started And then you set your main and you set that at the there's a level demarcated Where basically it should be like you where it's at unity you leave that there Never touch it again. So you leave leave it there and then you adjust the rest of the audio per channel depending on whoever's talking I thought I thought Darren picked up compressors For the audio. I don't know but for a lot of That requires some calibration too depending on who's Talking although, I mean we had we had an audio engineer come in for revision three He was one of the old audio engineers. He's the one that used to record the uh, the zd tv radio show Remember him tom No, not randolph the guy who did the pancake Breakfast things at the tech tv.  I'm blanking out his name too I'm so I feel so bad Who would know is I don't remember pancake breakfast No, you had to be doing the recording the the radio stuff for zd tv radio or tech tv radio You don't remember uh, Dave it was dave though, wasn't it? Um, yeah, it was a day not randolph. You know who would know is um I look like sure if I can hear his voice Uh, who's the guy in charge of the studio at revision three? Oh Not Dave randolph. Um, josh vegas josh ash josh vegas because he's the guy who called them to bring him in Um, but he set up the the compressors For us. Um, all right. Yeah And that's really important because I call that guy just so I don't have to deal with it um, I mean audio is a very tricky thing and it's really depends Not only on the environment, but depends on who's in it like, you know with patrick is kind of Very loud, you know very so Um It's it's it's one of those things you'll probably able to just eyeball everything initially and say like uh, this is what I see Initially, and then he'll you'll basically have a list of questions about what you're hearing That you want to remedy and they'll just go through There he'll like look at the mixer and all that but yeah hit up, uh, josh vegas because I think he remembers The contact info on the guy's name and I wish I remembered but I'm really bad with names and faces Actually, you know, I'm good with faces. I just not the names Can you guys hear Absolute mayhem outside my apartment building right now. That's hilarious. What is that? Can you hear it? Yeah, it was at a bus or like I was hoping that you'd say no Can't hear a thing in case this happens during the show Uh, it just it sounds like a garbage truck It is it is a garbage truck even though garbage day is on monday And I know that because garbage day starts at 7 a.m.  I also have a neighbor who is A big beautiful house and then there's sort of an empty lot that's obviously there's that has just been sort of sitting idle the whole time I've lived here and apparently they're building a gazebo of some kind. That's what the city document said. Okay, fine But this has included a lot of what seems like unnecessary construction work. For example this morning There was a huge crane. I made a 50 foot crane Moving a palm tree from like Which was rooted in the ground like five feet and then putting it back in And recovery and it would say it's just it's fascinating really neighbors. I mean It's it's it's what it's almost it's like a winchester mystery house situation going on there where every day I'm like, what are they doing? So folks if you want to keep up on the mystery situation You have to back the Patriots if Sarah could come on and update us Yeah, do you want to know how the story ends? Well, you know Yeah, by the way, we're already and I do this would happen. We're already getting people like what level can we add? I Well, you know, that's yes Conversation to have I suppose let's just get Sarah first Then we could see about outbidding Everybody Get all the bodies 2 million a month awesome We're building our new orbital platform to host the show on No, I like that I like this idea of That you mentioned Sarah too of doing new stuff out of your studio because part of the reason this is working out Is that Sarah's in a position where she's got some freelance stuff But she needs something, you know a little bit bigger and stable to fill the gaps Which is how I operate this is how I've described it is like I have dTns Which pays the bills and then I do other things like tech republic and my books and everything the kind of you know Round out my life So this will help Sarah be able to do that as well And that means she can she can do some cool new things for dTns because we have more brains involved Exactly. Yeah, and I'm My whole idea it's it's because I want to emulate Tom in all walks of life But it's like it really my my for a long time Sort of a dream of mine that I felt a little out of my reach was to Yeah, work for myself, uh, not necessarily work from home But here we are I've got a little bit of extra space that you know, isn't actually my bedroom Um that I've I've kind of committed to to putting something together that feels like You know as professional as as I Am able to do and And to start cranking out some stuff, uh dTns labs in particular is great because Um, there's not a ton of pressure if people kind of go in and it's not, you know, maybe We're not as interested in that it's like, okay Well, we can put our minds together and and come up with something that uh the audience does want because We're here for the audience. I like I like the idea of doing a mail bag. That could be one Totally just checking on emails. That could be something where we get the advisor level folks involved. Maybe Absolutely and uh now I Notified everybody who was already backing at the $30 level or above because there were a few Uh and said hey, we've got this new level folks. So you know, uh Make sure to change your your reward because it won't automatically do it But you already qualify so you might as well do that Uh, so a few it kind of spiked the results But I'm going to check right now to see exactly uh the last time I looked we had eight people at the advisor level and we now have 10 Yay 10 advisors yay And We're at 14,823. That's great So there we go just just about 5,000 plus to go Hmm Does that mean you're going to just pledge 5,000? I I was I was thinking about it I think it should happen. This should happen. It really should and it should happen by the end of the weekend So let's do it. Really you think it'll happen by the end of the week. Wow. I'm pretty I'm pretty optimistic about that. That's great I think That would be incredible. Well, you know, here's the thing is that it's it's it's it's like a great combination I think it's a great addition all the new things. I think it's exciting and um I don't know just be optimistic about things. That's what I say Oh, right. Today is the the final update of the summer movie draft. Thank you t2 t2 uh This means That I won officially Only reason I'm excited Biocao has just winked and said 11 advisors. Thank you biocao Yeah Yeah, so it's all over team dtns You get to bask in this sara team dtns won the summer movie draft Yay You know, I missed the movie draft I haven't it's been a few cycles of summer and winter movies that that uh, I think I like couldn't do it a couple times Then you guys just moved on with your lives Stopped asking me But um But you know next time I often assume there's organization behind our invitations Totally. Yeah, I uh, hey, we're we we're all just you know, we're all just trying to try to get through the day half the time But um for the next draft Uh, which I guess when does the winter movie draft kickoff? It should kick off by the end of september. Yeah, so in the next couple weeks if there if there's a slot I'm in All right. Well, we're doing it a little different in the winter. I brushwood and I are teaming up We're like mixing up teams So I'll hit up bryce to make sure that you get considered for for one of the teams Otherwise, I'd just say jump in on team dtns Which is probably what we'll have in the summer movie draft again Uh, perfect Yeah, I mean if it's uh, if you've got a plan already no beggar Um, oh serena williams had a baby Aw, congratulations serena. Yeah, and alexis Who has um Who's her husband, uh and has uh been at least on on when amber and I were doing um The social hour back on twit. Pardon me Uh alexis, uh would join us fairly frequently. He was always such a great guest. That was nice. Very cool I'm gonna go start my weekend guys. Good luck on the Thanks, Len. Good luck on the patreon. Congratulations. We'll see every you know, hopefully I will hopefully when I check back on the patreon You know, it'll be all taken care of and it'll it'll just it'll all come into place So here's the thing what I notice is that and maybe you notice this too, tom Is that is that after the show goes live a lot more? There's a lot more activity. So Yeah, oh, yeah So for sure, uh, we'll see what happens in the next few hours. It should be interesting. So very cool We'll have a good weekend. Len. Thanks, man. All right. Take care. We'll see you. Bye. Bye And uh, I think we're gonna we're gonna close it down now as well. Uh, thank you shannon for dropping in Yeah, thank you so much. I'm sorry. My audio totally stinks in this car, but I will mention I got my ifb in and I got to use it for an episode with jonathan strickland of tech stuff And it totally works and I'm so excited to use it for the next dtns. I can't wait. Oh, yay. That's that's fantastic. That's great So, yeah, thank you again, and I'm gonna go finish running my errands. I think next up is target Thanks shannon All right, so Folks just one last moment before we uh, stop the broadcast This this this is the team we want right here Yay With all of our co-hosts and everything as well So if you can help us out patreon.com slash dtns If you can afford a few extra bucks if you're already backing us great If you can't afford we totally understand just spread the word get out there and tell folks Uh, tell help pick you up Tell friends family co-workers the guy who bags your groceries Trust me. There are more people out there who love this information than you think We'll see you on tuesday See you on tuesday


So we are live on air for a very special episode of the Illinois on Air podcast. It's a podcast on organizational learning and knowledge work and it's a very special episode because it's live streamed from the first center center, which is the podcasting assembly of the remote chaos experience of the Chaos Computer Club. And it's also special because I have two very special guests. One is Claudia or Ching's. Hi, Claudia. Hello. And the other is David from TCM, I think in France. Hi, David. Welcome. Exactly. Hi, everybody. There are a few specialties in this podcast. First is that it's a virtual one. Normally, at the center center, we have a physical stage where we podcast. We would sit there on chairs and have headsets on. But now we do it remotely. This means that you can see the live stream that is brought to you by the very fabulous C3 Walk that's streaming. You also have a chat on the IRC. There's this on hackint.org, a channel called RC3-SendItCentrum. You can ask questions there. We do a Q&A at the end. And as we are a podcasting assembly, you will be also able to lifestyle in with a phone number. We will put the telephone number in the chat later on and then you can come up to the show and ask questions to us to Claudia or to David. Another thing because this podcast is special is because we have this very special guest. We want to talk about today about a tool that enables people to meet in the virtual space. I think due to COVID-19 pandemic, everybody was used to hang in video conferences like Big Blue Button and Zoom and so on. I see Claudia is nodding and David as well. But perhaps you experience that when you're in these video conferences, there's something missing if you compare it to a live conference or live event. People having a coffee together. You just stumble upon each other. You have a chat just by chance, a serendipity. You meet each other. You meet new people. And that's not happening in a video conference, but it's happening in tools that we call spatial chat tools, like tools where you can chat and be in the room somehow. And we have these two people here because they have a lot of experience, a lot of in terms of a few months or weeks since we are in this pandemic situation. And perhaps first I switched to David. I read a little bit in the internet about you. Come from a company called TTM, the coding machine. You do stuff with open source web development. A lot of open repositories on GitHub, to all this web stuff. And you're based in Paris, I think, in France. Yes, exactly. I'm actually the CTO of the coding machine. So we run 90 company. I co-founded the company like 15 years ago. So it's it's been quite a while. And we've been doing a web web development, actually, a lot of PHP. I'm a really big fan of PHP. I've been doing a lot of open source libraries and frameworks around it. I've even participated in a few standards regarding interoperability of PHP frameworks. So this is where I come from. And I'm actually really kind of a nerd. I've been starting coding like when I was seven years old. And I've always had, well, I've been interested into developing video games when I was young. So web video games and you see where this leads us. This is what we will talk about later on. Very good. OK. Yeah, thank you. And then we have Jinx from the Chaos Computer Club. I read also a little bit about you. As you said, you were part of the main organization team of this whole chaos, which normally is a conference last year took place in Leipzig at the Messe. At the fair there with, I think, around 17,000 people. You wrote about yourself that you're an author, a podcast, of course, and also a specialist in data protection. So what else do we need to know about you for this podcast today? Yeah, this year I'm first time in the main organization of this. RC3, remote case experience. We sat in the beginning when we started to develop the ideas for the whole conference that we can't, we just can't take the Congress as we know it and put it just one-to-one into the digital world. This just can't happen. And the thing that we always had in mind when we started writing that concept, which was a colleague, which was Knud and me who wrote the concept for the whole case experience. And we always had in mind something like a four-day LAN party, a local area network party as we did in our students' times, where you get out after four days with a whole pizza overflow and square eyes and total sleep deprivation and come home and say, OK, that was really great. So when we started this concept, we tried to see it from another perspective. So what can we actually make happen and what can't we do? So this was a really interesting thing because what I did in the last years was mostly helping with assemblies, with the assembly team at the Congress or at the camp with the village team or I was with the privacy week, which is also a lot smaller conference, but also a physical one that's over seven days. So I know a bit about all those things, all those conferences and how they're working in the physical space. And yeah, interesting part was how to make something happen in the digital space. That's also great. And I think we have to talk later a little bit about what this AC3 world is and what the components are. But perhaps first of all, let's talk a little bit about the tool like you called it, David WorkAdventure. WorkAdventure, the description of the GitHub repo is one of more than 300 that you have is it's a collaborative web application in Brackett's virtual office presented as 16-bit RPG video game. As I saw, it was started in late March, has more than 1200 commits at the moment and you released a version one like 10 or 11 days ago with about 12 contributors. So tell us a little bit about the emergence of that tool. Like how did the idea come to build that tool? How did you do it? What are the technical components? What is WorkAdventure? As you said, it started in March and well, I'm in France. And in France, in March, we had the lockdown. And during two months, we could not go out. We could not see our colleagues. It was quite stressful, actually. And so at the coding machine, we started to do a brainstorming about what could we do to improve the situation with our skill set, so as web developers. So we started thinking about could we do a phone application to detect nearby people that have COVID? Well, this has been done by other people. So well, we would certainly not do that. So we were really looking for an idea. And at the same time, I started doing well, some conferences, as I told you, I'm mostly into PHP and I've been developing a library which allows to do some GraphQL in PHP, whatever. And I was doing a live conference about that online. And during this conference, I was presenting. Of course, I was not seeing the audience in front of me. And at the end of the audience, at the end of the conference, well, I could not see anybody. I could not talk to anybody. And it was really like, wait, how many people were there? Was there happy? I did not have any feedback. And I needed to find a way to solve that. So you just looked at the dead eye of the webcam, so to say. And after the talk, it was just over. That's it. Exactly. And basically, I wanted to have a way to have a conversation with a subset of people. Of course, it's impossible to have a conversation with 100 people at the same time. But I wanted to have a conversation with a few people and a few weeks, maybe a few days later, I started to say, okay, this would be really useful also for my office because I want to see my colleagues I'm spending all my days scheduling new meetings. And I'm spending like maybe half my days sending links to speak with people by creating whatever Zoom conferences, Google Meet, Jitsi Meet. And basically, the idea was born this way. I started thinking, okay, what if I could basically walk through my office as if it was a video game? I wanted to come next to somebody and start being able to start speaking to it like that without having to schedule anything, without having to plan a meeting. Just, I'm moving towards someone and I can speak to it in an informal way. I wanted to get rid of the formal I'm sending you an invite, we are going to put something in the calendar, whatever. And this is how WorkAdventure was born. And I started speaking about this idea to colleagues and they were immediately like, of course, it's a good idea. And so we started working on it, well, mostly at night. It was like- So beside your day work, it's not you do it as your day work? Yes, at the very beginning, it was really beside my day work. It was with a few colleagues of mine, we were three or four.  But, well, it was just a matter of putting them together in the right way. As a child, I had been playing a lot with game engines. So developing a video game was one of my favorite occupation when I was young. So I was really more than happy to start a game. And then we needed the video chat part. And we had been working a few weeks before on a project which was using WebRTC, which is basically the API that is used by browsers to speak together and to allow video communication between browsers. And so, yes, it started like that. Yeah, cool, cool. And Claudette, did you see this effect in the RCC world? Like stumbling across people, meeting people just walking through this world and so on, in contrast to just having video conferences like Zoom or Chitty or something like that? Actually, yes. And this is the reason why we chose to implement it. We had a look at a whole bunch of different solutions, also like Mozilla Hubs and so. And most of them had the problem that they were really, really resource hungry. And we said, okay, we need something that people can also use with a bad bandwidth with an old computer or with not the latest gaming hardware. And so we chose the first thing was, okay, no 3D because when people are sitting at home or probably with their families somewhere in the wild with four embed or something, they just can't participate. We can't do that. We need something that's smaller, that's better to handle also with small bandwidth or all the hardware and so on. So if you're at your parents' house currently with the four embed bandwidth connection, then you can still participate, okay. That was the first thing. And then we said, okay, 2D it is.  And our technical guys came down to, okay, we'll look deeper into that work-adventure solution. They were debating on implementing themselves again, but just building from what's already there. And then, yeah, it is 2020 and chaos is chaos. And yeah, building from scratch was not a solution at all at some point. And then we came down to, okay, we just take that work-adventure stuff and build from there because it was also, and this is second part, pretty easy to build the tiles for the 2D world, the graphical pixel tiles. And we had the idea, okay, if we hand out a how-to for those graphical pixel tiles, then all the assemblies, all the people who want to participate will have something to do over the next weeks to get enthusiastic about the event. And people can build something and can participate already in the build-up that took weeks. And it was so cool to see how that actually worked out. Yes, so that's why we chose work-adventure then. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's also the interesting thing. As you said, I would like this, a lot of components that came together. I think you used the gaming engine called Phaser Eye. Oh, I've already read it, right? Yes, exactly. Then you used an existing editor tile where you can build these maps and create layers and add smart features like having websites pop up if you go somewhere or starting cheesy conferences if you need to have a touch-head with more than four people and so on. So how came all these things together? Were just technologies that you worked with in the past and just brought that together? Or was there also research necessary of what components to use for the whole system? Actually, I've been testing two technologies for the front-end. I was used to using game engines, but not in the browser. So this was quite new for me. And I started with an open-source library called Pixi, which can be used to render graphics on-screen in a convasse. And it was quite cool, but it lacked a few features, especially the ability to load a map from Tiled, which is the tile editor that you've been using to build the maps. And since there was this super tool called Tiled, and I wanted to be able to load the maps easily, I realized that there was this other game engine named Phaser that can load the tiles, the map quite easily from Tiled. And so I used that. I followed a few tutorials, and it was, I won't say easy, but relatively easy to set up. And so we sticked with Phaser, which is really quite a nice tool, actually. And, yeah. Sorry. One fun thing about Tiled is that John, which is a guy who wrote Tiled, just connected on WorkAdventure like a week ago, and came say, hi, I made Tiled and you're using it. And I was, woo, super. And this was also the bridge, how I came to work adventure. I used it the last six months, a lot of tools like SoCoCo or Rimo, or Gatha or Wanda. And I think Gatha is also a supporter of Tiled because he is also Tiled as an editor. And then I read somewhere there in the forum, there's also this WorkAdventure thing. And what I found interesting that you just put the whole source code on GitHub, and you have a description, like running a Compost.up and have a Docker container and have the whole thing running. I think very interesting because a lot of people can build stuff around, as you said, Clouder, like doing graphics, doing tilesets, there are a lot of repos, links to free repos with tiles and so on, but also build them from scratch. There was, I think, organized by Honky every week on Tuesdays or something like that, workshop on how to use Tiled and how to use Clita, which is a painting program to create own tiles. And so there are a lot of custom tiles in this RC3 world at the moment. It was a very wise decision, I think. I was so much surprised when I learned that you were giving workshop about how to build a map. And I had absolutely no idea. What? Because there's a few... So, thank you very much, actually. At the physical Congress, there are very typical things, like there is Seidenstraße, which is a postal system, and there are specific signs and unicorns and so on, and they were not available in the standard, like, game tile libraries. And I think also that people were really, really creative with the stuff they did. And the virtual Congress looks a lot like the physical one. You have a lot of, like, jokes and Easter eggs and so on. It's very cool. Yeah, so many creative people. And I heard about assemblies who build an underwater world somewhere, and I didn't find it yet. Or a Tetris room. I think it's at the Hexen. Oh, okay. I'll have to watch over there. So the Tetris room is, when you walk through or when you run through it, and you hit the tiles and the place, the Tetris melody. And other really cool stuff. People really got creative, which is the beautiful part of 2020 that people try to make the best of what we can actually have from, yeah, from all the things of sitting at home. Yeah. So, Préves, let's talk a little bit about the components of the R3-3 now. Like, you'd also already talked a little bit about the concept, like you wrote it. You had an idea of how many people might join such a thing. Typically, I think, David, you haven't been at a Congress so far. You have, last year, we were at the Leipzig fair. We had, I think, almost all of the space there. There were rooms for giving talks, like lecture halls, but also assemblies where the Hexenters can have tables and everything was with LEDs and stuff. A lot of projects, self-organized sessions and so on. So, Claudio, perhaps you talk a little bit about how this evolved from your first idea of a concept, like how you imagine, you can imagine how this might look like to what it is now that we have since yesterday. Yeah, as you just said, we have the physical Congress with about 17,000 people. And we came to the conclusion in about May, I think, we had monthly mumble meetings with a bigger auger group with some people from assemblies and from teams and the auger and so on. Lots of people coming together to geek ends what to do. And in about May, it was like, okay, no, we can't. We just can't do a physical event. This is never gonna happen. Okay, so what are we going to do? And in August, we said, okay, let's just do it completely online. And then we thought, okay, how many people could actually come? And there were so many people, actually, so many people also in the community who said, no, that can never, that can never happen. How are you, how can you bring the Congress to the internet? And as I said before, we never tried to bring the Congress to the internet, but we tried to do something like Congress-y feeling-y, but different. And we said, okay, so many people say, no, that can't work, okay, how much people will we probably have? Well, probably we will handle like 1500 tickets and 500 people will use it. And we will totally be happy. That escalated quickly. And our first batch of tickets ran out. Took a while because there was one of our mistakes in the build-up, let's say, or in the development of the whole event or world, the whole experience, that we built while the ideas were still spreading. So it was always a parallel thing. And it was not like, okay, this is the plan, then we build, then we do the, and no, but everything was- What do you call it, Agile? Yes. For some values of Agile. But yes. So we didn't communicate so good what people would need that ticket for. And we said, okay, but we would need a login area. So we have some private messages and something how people can enter that 2D world. And we still have a bit of an idea of what's actually happening. Yeah, so our tickets ran out and people were, oh my goodness, how can that happen? Yeah, well, as we learned- It's always enough room in the internet, like why are there tickets at all? Why are they limited and so on? Yeah, but this thing like the internet is scaling limitless. The same presumption like, yeah, my electricity comes out of the plug. Not working. And we had to rethink how we can scale the whole event. And people ran out into their teams and into the areas, okay, what can we do? What can we fix? Where can we, yeah, how can we scale it? And we had a certain round of tickets giving out. And yeah, now we're here with a whole bunch more than 15,000 users. With a lot of people. Yes, with really, really, really many people. I think it's an interesting aspect like scaling, David. I think I read somewhere when I first used WorkAdventure, you say, on the servers you use, you suggest to not be more than 100 people because then the frequency of updating where everybody is on the map gets changed and people run really fast and things like that. Yes, exactly. And this was the main issue for this Congress to scale that. So perhaps talk a little bit about your experiences, like what kind of events did you do so far? Is it mainly around 100 people or 500 people? What are the dimensions that you worked with so far? Yes, so far we've been, as I say, I'm a PHP developer. So I know pretty well the French PHP community. So when I started communicating around WorkAdventure and saying, hey, look at what we've been doing, I was noticed by people doing PHP in France. And so basically a number from the French PHP community PHP user group told me that they were having a problem organizing their big annual meetup, which is about 600 people. And they wanted to put it online. They did not know how to do it. And so I proposed to organize a part of it on WorkAdventure. And basically, well, I worked like during one month, just on this, we were a team of three people and WorkAdventure was like a prototype. And we had to make it something solid enough to host an event with about 600 people. Actually, we had about 100 simultaneous users, user at the same time during the conference. But so I was pretty confident that about, we could go a bit above this limit and like 300 or 400 people would be okay. Now the main problem is that this is developed using Node.js, which is basically in JavaScript, JavaScript, everybody will tell you, hey, it's super fast and so on because whatever. It's actually single threaded. So basically you can use only one core of your CPU and there is only one core that is doing all the computation. And when you run out of power, well, everything starts to get sluggish, people start to lose connections and everything goes bad. So I started working on stress tests to see how we can scale things up. And basically when we started talking together or when you came to us and asked us, how many people can we have? Yes, the limit was about 200, 300 people at the same time. Since last week it's much, much higher. And at the beginning of XTR, we're going to start really a new version that will really scale much more. But for RC3, you had guys to deal with a version that could not scale really well. And you did an excellent job at making this scale amazingly. So wow. I think it were a lot of pizzas and nights of coding and a lot of gray hairs and so on. But what is the main thing that drives the resource hungryness? The more people you have on the map, the more updates you have to send, where is everybody? Yes, actually, the interesting part is that it is only about the position of people moving. It's not about the video, because the video is going via web RTC or via GTC, so you can scale GTC, that's not part of work adventure. Or if you are speaking to someone, this is web RTC, which is actually doing a peer-to-peer connection. So the video is not going through the work adventure server at any point in time, so we don't have any problems scaling the video. However, sharing the position of players moving on the map is really challenging.  We started by trying to send the position only of people that are close to you. So if you've got a huge map, we're not sending the position of everybody on the map. And the problem is that if you've got 600 people on the map, when someone is moving or 600 people close together, when one people is moving, you have to send the signal 600 times to everybody. And if everybody is moving at the same time, a lot of messages. And they must be shared on a single server because there is a single server that must have the position of everybody to be able to know who is speaking to who and who can speak to who. Yeah, true, I understand. Yeah, so basically the challenge is here. So I think this will be interesting when I think the changes that CCC made to the source code will be published on a public repository as well to sort of learn from each other what the tips are. Yes, I'm dying to see what you've guys have been doing. One of the things we were talking about in the preparations was also that how can we actually manage if we have 1,000 people or more joining the world? So they drop into that lobby area. How can we manage to have 1,000 avatars in one room? We can't, that's not possible. And we said, okay, let's divide them and say we can have a lobby room and this can have a host like, I don't know, 50 avatars. And then everyone who's joining afterwards will come to another lobby room parallel to the first one. And then until the next lobby room is full with 50 and so on and so on. I think it's a bit more complex what our guys brought up, but this is the basic principle because we could not either technically, nor from a user perspective put, like, 1,000 avatars in one room. Even if we would simulate the glass wall or something, it doesn't work, it just doesn't work out. You don't see anything anymore. It's just taking too much of a space and so on. And that was also a pretty, yeah, interesting thing how to work all these things out. Also how to get so many people on so many maps because we have nearly 300 assemblies and lots of them were building maps. So actually you will find, I don't know the exact number, but if we save 300 assemblies, lots of them building maps, like 200 maps in the whole world. How do people get there? How can they interact? How can they probably link together? So you come from one assembly to the next and so on. This was a very interesting experience yesterday because I think the first two hours or so, a lot of people tried to get to the Send It, Send On podcasting assembly. And on the chat and on Twitter, you had all this discussion like from the lobby, you have to go up, up, up, then left, then there is a little thingy, then you have to go down. It ended up at someone like doing a video on how to get from point A to point B. You put it on Twitter. And stick that to our profile. So everybody was able to like get there. Until somebody found out that in the assembly list, you find the work adventure map as a room and you can directly click on it and you come to the map of the assembly sort of. But things that were, I won't say totally easy in the physical space. It was still tricky in this really large, large space in Leipzig to find a certain spot. But there was things like C3Nav navigation system and a map of the whole area. It was easier, I think. And people have to learn in this new normal to adopt to that. Like how do I navigate in this virtual space in the same way? You know, the first time I saw the map layout when the work adventure guys from RC3 team showed me the whole layout, which was, it's just big, it's just big. I was like, okay, you really, really made it to simulate those times you need from A to B in that big area of Leipzig. This is pretty cool. And what I heard today is that there's already a guy who's walking on his love band. Trainer. So like conveyor belt, training, cross-trainer. Yeah, training belt, whatever. And he's running on that or walking on that and he built or wanted to build a Raspberry Pi so that he can navigate his avatar by walking on his belt. I was like, okay, achievement unlocked. Good. So those times you need to come from A to B are already in the digital space. Yeah, what I find also interesting, you mentioned this thing of technical scaling of the system, but also scaling of social processes that happen inside. So when I came to the lobby for the first time, there were a lot of people around me and normally if you stand close to somebody, you see if he wants to have a conversation or not. Perhaps he's looking at a smartphone or writing a message or something. In this system, as soon as you get close to somebody, you're in a video conference and if there are a lot of people, then you don't have a chance to get out. So my pattern was to run up, like run and then you have this ping, ping, ping, ping when crossing all these video conferences until I got to a space where not so many people were and where I could organize myself and see where I have to go. But you don't have that if you don't allow your camera in the start. So you do not automatically join video chat with other people, so you can learn to navigate through without getting into conversations in the second one or second two. And it's, yeah, it's a bit of adopting to it. And I have the same problem. Actually, we've been walking, it's not really a fix that on the next version, when you are running or when you are walking, you won't be entering into any bubble. So it won't do any ping while you are running. Very good. Which is pretty cool, actually. Because you're not disturbing anyone if you're walking through them without stopping. And if you are stopping, well, probably you want to have a chat. They are cool. So as before we go in the last round, we will talk a little bit about the future of WorkAdventure and also the RC3 world. Just as an announcement for the people who watch the live stream, if you have any questions to us, to the two of them, put them in the IRC or dial in the phone number and then we do a little Q&A if there are questions left. So as a last question to both of you, perhaps David first, what are your future plans with WorkAdventure? I had a look at the GitHub issues, what are ideas in what direction the project might go. So give us a little insight, what do you think are the top one, two, three things that will happen to WorkAdventure in 2021? Okay. Well, we have a few ideas. Well, first of all, we would like a compatibility with mobile phones. Very cool. That would be cool because today you need a keyboard to play WorkAdventure. I read on Twitter, there were people connecting a Bluetooth keyboard to Android phones or so and played it on the phone. Oh, okay. They were like this one. Excellent. Yeah. And then we're going to focus maybe on... Sorry. Letting people... Today, you did a good job at having people subscribe to be able to connect to WorkAdventure. This is not part actually of the core solution. So we're going to probably build something around that maybe with a kind of virtual phones that enables you to connect to colleagues or to friends. So this is a feature we're going to add maybe more features regarding organizing events and the ability for instance to host big events regarding scaling, regarding the ability to directly from WorkAdventure play a video to 100, 200 people. And we're probably going to build a SaaS solution out of it. We want to keep it open source. The core of WorkAdventure will always stay open source. This is really important for us. This is one of the core value I believe in. At some point, we will certainly have to make money. But that would be probably by allowing people to create spaces easily without having to install their own WorkAdventure server. So we're going to work on this in 2021. So it might be a similar business model to GTSI or something like that, where you have the core software open source and have a... Yes, exactly. I was thinking about GitLab, but yes, GTSI would be exactly the same. And Claudia would... Yeah, right. What do you think? If you look to 2021 and I think of Gulasch Programmier Nacht and other events like that, perhaps at least at the first half year and next year there won't be the possibility to meet with thousands of people in person. So will the RC3 World be sort of a prototype for something that will be used next year as well or are there no plans or thoughts about that at the moment? Well, my glass bowl is broken, but... Yeah, let's... There are many people talking about what could happen next year already. There's speculation. I know I can tell for 2020 that on day four there will be a takedown party or a takedown as always after the closing. So we said, okay, we will tear down the RC3 2D world to keep the event character or to keep it special. And it's a bit... Sad. But also the thing is the Congress, as it's in a physical space we also tear down every time and we come back and build it anew the next year. And if, big if, not when, but if there would be a second RC3 necessary or if we do the next impossible thing, a hybrid event which is more impossible than doing an online only event for several reasons. It's a possibility, a good possibility to build up from what we created this year. But as I said, glass bowl is broken. So we'll see. What I found interesting today in our assembly was a discussion during lunch that at a normal Congress you take a hacker space or community that meets in the physical space and you have a representation of an assembly at the Congress. And we were talking about using our map that we have now after the Congress as well only as a map for the assembly as a virtual meeting space of this community afterwards. So this is I think also interesting that these two dimensions of physical and virtual are sort of swept like the Congress took part in a virtual way and perhaps the assemblies take their map and use that afterwards as well. So the Congress as a whole is teared down but the maps might survive. Yes, I heard from several assemblies that they would use their map afterwards for their own purposes which is pretty cool and probably if we use it or use work adventure and develop it on for some future events or whatever we think of next, I see good probability that there will be some pretty creative more developments also with the maps and whatever happens to the source code and so on. Pretty amazing to see what the community is making from it to make the best of 2020. I have two questions in the IRC. If somebody wants to call 8001 then you're connected to us or the long numbers in the chat. Someone's asking if I'm sitting in a cheesy room and see that someone else on the map is passing by, I want to be able to call the person and invite them in the cheesy map. What do you think of a feature like that? If you're sitting on a table in a physical space and say, Claudia, come here. I'm sitting here with two other people. Come join us. That would be really interesting. It's true that today you have to go out of the gist meeting room and run towards the person and say, hey, come in. Yes, exactly. It might be a good idea. Actually, I've not been talking about the limitations we have. Basically, when you're going to speak to someone you can be up to four people. This is four people because you're in a web RTC and when you speak to three other people you must send your video stream three times. Usually, you're quite limited regarding upload bandwidth. At some point it does not work and you need a GC server to do something. What I would like, ideally, is to have something that is basically between GC and the bubbles we have today where basically when we are five people we start using the GC server but keeping the UI of work-adventure. Basically, the bubble would go bigger and bigger as many people are coming in the bubble and so you could maybe work more easily towards someone and say, hey. Well, okay. Similar to the real world, the bubble of people talking getting bigger and then it splits into subgroups perhaps and so on. Yes, and if you want to go out of the bubble you can at any time and with small... There are actually big challenges regarding the UX, the user experience and how you do this and we have been quite lucky because when we started working on work-adventure during the first few months I think we got it right and it was really completely by chance. We got the size of the circle that was close to what we... Well, yeah. It worked at the first time. We did not have to make any trial and error. It was just pretty good. But improving this is quite hard. I believe that. Okay, so at the end of the time of the podcast thank you both very much that you showed up and shared your experience and your knowledge. I think Jinx, everybody at the CCC knows how to contact you perhaps. But if you want to, you can say in URL or your Twitter link, Nick, how people can come in touch with you. I'm not so much on Twitter anymore. But you can find me on Masterlon at vianarite.literatur.social. Very well. And David, if somebody wants to share experience with you or drop some lines of code or just say thank you, how can people get in touch with you? Yes. Well, I'm on Twitter, David underscore negrier, n-g-r-i-e-r. And especially you can actually connect to the GitHub account, the GitHub repository of WorkAdventure. It's the coding machine slash WorkAdventure. And if you have any questions, just fill an issue. Or comment on Twitter. If you want to start the project, do not hesitate. We'll do that. Yeah, thank you. And we'll give you a hint as soon as the repos are published so you might have a look at it as well. Yes, definitely. So thank you very much, both of you. Thanks everybody in the livestream. Thank you very much. Thanks to the Center-Centrum team for running the technology behind the podcast. Have a nice evening. Goodbye. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure.