Welcome to Stan Energyman, Stan Osterman here from the Hawaii Center for Advanced Transportation Technologies. And I'd like to start off the show today by telling, not stories, but just kind of giving you what's been on my mind this past week particularly, because I've been getting some blogs and things from friends and it just amazes me how much misinformation is out there about hydrogen.  And that was about maybe 15 years ago, I was on jury duty in a civil case, which is kind of interesting rather than a criminal case. And lo and behold, when it came time for the expert witnesses to show up on the stand and give their testimony, some guy showed up on the stand for the guy that was suing the car driver. And I go, I know this guy from some place, but I couldn't figure out where. And so of course the first thing they have to do as an expert witness is establish their credentials. So it turns out that this guy was my physics professor when I was in college. So I'm going, oh my goodness, the guy that's doing the expert testimony is somebody that I went to school and learned from. He was my professor teaching me physics. And so I was kind of interested in how he would present his side of the evidence and things.  I mean, as a former police officer, I've been to a lot of motor vehicle accidents. And he was telling us how this car was doing 45 miles an hour and hit this guy and did all kind of damage to his knee.  You'd be lucky to survive, let alone have a leg left, not just a couple bruises. So one thing interesting about a civil case versus a criminal case is you can actually ask questions, the jury can. So I asked him to basically talk about how much energy was imparted at the point of impact on that bumper on the individual's leg based on a 45-moner collision with a 3,000-pound car and a 150-pound guy crossing the street.  And the number he gave was in material, but it was really low. And it wasn't accurate. So the next time the expert witness came up for the other side, I asked the same question. And the answer was in close to a million foot-pounds of energy. In other words, an average rifle bullet has maybe 2,000 foot-pounds of energy, maybe. And this was in the hundreds, multi-hundreds of thousands of foot-pounds. In other words, that guy's leg would have been ripped off. He would have been thrown through the windshield and he would have been dead. So bottom line is, here's a guy that I trusted as my physics professor in school, but when it came time to testify in court, you should be able to trust him as an expert witness. But it was obvious that he let something pull his judgment some other way and he was trying to make some outcome out of something that wasn't there. And this troubled me and it really impacted the way I look at testimony by quote-unquote experts. To this day, I just don't take things for face value.  And that's kind of how we got into this discussion today. I was looking at a bunch of blogs from a friend that sent them to me from the mainland talking about hydrogen and hydrogen stations. And here's some of the stuff that was on the blogs that just really got my attention. It costs a lot of money to cool down the hydrogen after you produce it and put it in a 700-bar storage compartment. And I'm like, well, yeah, we do chill it a little bit, but it really doesn't add that much. The compression adds a little bit of cost, but we've pretty much figured out what those are. And it doesn't massively elevate the cost.  And I'm going, well, that's not right. Then it says that when you put the fuel into a car like a Toyota Mirai or something, that over a period of a day or two, you lose half the fuel from leakage. And I'm like, are you kidding me? You can't be leaking a half a tank of fuel every day out of any car and have a company sit there and still keep producing it. That would be ridiculous. That's just insane. But the person actually said that. Then he followed up with hydrogen is dangerous to the ozone layer. Excuse me, but hydrogen and oxygen make water like clouds. That's all you get when you get hydrogen leaking from something. It eventually mixes up with oxygen and you make clouds. Well, if clouds are dangerous to the ozone, we're in big trouble. But that was part of it. And then they talked about how expensive it was to truck around hydrogen. Well, it became apparent by the time I got to this point in the blog that this individual had read something on liquid hydrogen, which does boil off from liquid as it's in a gas state. And you do lose a small percentage, depending on how efficient your canister is holding your cryocooler, how well it's designed. You do have boil off from liquid hydrogen. So in a tank like that, you do lose some. But it's apparent that these people are taking liquid hydrogen things and applying it to gaseous hydrogen, and they have no idea what the numbers are when it comes to estimating costs of production of hydrogen and where the money, the electrical costs come from go to and what it's for. So we're going to talk a little bit about hydrogen today. And some of the facts, because at the Hickam, Joint Base Pearl Harbor Hickam, I run a 65 kilogram a day hydrogen electrolyzer. And I even have a small electrolyzer on Cook Street that I actually do maintenance on myself. So we have a fair amount of experience with electrolyzers and making hydrogen and putting them in fuel cell vehicles. So first, let's talk about hydrogen in its basic form. Hydrogen is an element on the periodic table. It's the very first one. It's the most common element in the universe, not on earth in the entire universe. And it's not found naturally in its pure form because it's attracted atomically to other atoms to form molecules. So hydrogen has to be separated from other molecules like water to make it pure hydrogen. Hydrogen is 14 times lighter than air. Therefore, when you release it, it travels straight up at 45 miles an hour or 60 feet per second. So if you let some hydrogen go into the air, it's going to go straight up 60 feet in one second. Six stories high within a second of being released. It's awful hard for the hydrogen mix with air and become flammable when it's traveling that fast through the air. Most of air is nitrogen, about 75 percent. And oxygen makes up about 20 percent of air with other gases like carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and other argon and things like that making up the last 5 percent. Pure hydrogen doesn't burn until it's mixed with oxygen. So in air, between 4 and 75 percent by volume, you'll get flammable hydrogen. The flame is nearly colorless when it's being burned in daylight, but it has a blue color in dark or shade. And this is kind of disturbing to people because they think they can like walk into an invisible flame of hydrogen and get incinerated. Again, it goes straight up at 45 miles an hour. So even if there's a leak coming sideways, it's going to turn like that and go straight up. Hydrogen flames are very directional. They're like a torch. If it's high pressure leak, it's going to follow that high pressure stream until the buoyancy takes over and the hydrogen starts going straight up. And hydrogen also does not radiate any heat because there's no carbon inside of it. So in practical terms, hydrogen is stored at pressure and it's stored as pure hydrogen. It's very difficult to ignite once it gets out in the open air because it tends to stream through the air faster than it can mix. If it does mix well enough and it does ignite, the flame itself will be moist and hot and very directional. But you could hold your hand an inch or so from the side of that flame no matter how big it is and you won't feel much heat because the heat does not radiate laterally or down from the flame itself. And the sound of the gas escaping, especially from a high pressure vessel like you'd find in a car or a truck, is very audible. And when I say audible, I mean almost deafening. You'd be hard pressed to walk into a hydrogen flame without hearing it first. So don't forget, we have five senses just because you may not see the flame doesn't mean you're going to walk into it. So hydrogen mixed with air or oxygen in a confined space is very flammable. So the key to working with hydrogen safely is good ventilation. Hydrogen is odorless, tasteless, colorless and non-toxic. Period. So let's talk about the first boogaboo that I always run into and I talk to people who are bent against hydrogen. And that is the Hindenburg. First of all, hydrogen did not start the fire in the Hindenburg but certainly did fuel the fire once it started because it was started by a flammable coating on the zeppelin that was ignited by some static discharge from weather and just static electricity that builds up when two bodies pass like when you rub a wool thing in an air conditioner room. So hydrogen was used in most airships from the mid-1800s up into the point of the Hindenburg because it's lighter than helium and it's much more available than helium. So hydrogen was used in airships for several decades and hundreds of thousands of miles between Europe and the Americas, not just North America but down in South America to move passengers and cargo in airships just tons before they had the accident with the Hindenburg and they switched to helium in all the airships. So virtually all the fatalities that happened during the Hindenburg crash were caused not from the fire but from people jumping from the gondola when it was way above the ground. Those who stayed with the airship and you can watch the film on this and evacuated when it got to the ground or near the ground were not injured or injured seriously. Remember, hydrogen doesn't radiate heat and the heat wouldn't go down, the heat goes up. The flames went up at 60 feet per second and the film demonstrates this. Hydrogen is used in a wide range of industrial applications and maintains an enviable safety record compared to other fuels and energy carriers including gasoline, propane, compressed natural gas and even lithium cobalt batteries. So let's talk a little bit about batteries or hydrogen for energy storage. Many people dismiss hydrogen as a serious energy storage and electrical generation system because they have not actually thought much about the fully burned cost of the alternatives. They have also listened to many quote-unquote experts, thus my story about my physics professor, who focus on round-trip efficiency of electricity which is one dimension of the logic of energy storage that people focus on. But people forget that as brilliant as Elon Musk is, he is fully invested in selling batteries, not hydrogen. So if he starts pitching the benefits of hydrogen, it could threaten his new factory in Nevada which makes batteries. And I don't think you'd like that competition because it's the largest factory, not the largest battery factory, the largest factory period in North America. So let's get things straight. Currently, the most efficient power train in transportation is electric, period. Battery electric, hybrid electric, fuel cell electric, battery electric is close to 90% efficient. But if you're charging your car from a grid that is burning coal, you're not really being clean and green. And hybrids are great. They're electric cars that have batteries, but they also have a small internal combustion engine to run on and that generates electricity and they get up to about 35% efficiency over a regular internal combustion engine which gets 20 to 25% efficiency as a point of reference. But fuel cell electric vehicles are about 45 or 50% efficient and when you use renewable energy, renewable electricity, like from wind and solar, and use electrolysis to make your carbon-free hydrogen from the beginning, you have a cheaper, rather than using the cheaper steam-reformed hydrogen that many of the plants in California make as part of their industrial process, you're getting clean hydrogen, cleaner than coal and diesel and gas. But you're in the same boat as a plug-in car when it comes to dirty electrical sources. So at this point, batteries are looking pretty good as a good choice for transportation, but let's look at the other factors. Let's look at lithium in particular because it's the most popular battery used by Tesla and other technology companies that are in transportation. The best technology we have today in transportation for storage is lithium-based, lithium cobalt generally speaking. Currently, the world's reserves of lithium should last us about 350 years according to most experts. If we harvested lithium, most of the lithium was harvested is found around Central and South America, and less than half is used for batteries. Unless we find a better battery technology than lithium as we ramp up production to meet the demand for hundreds of millions of tons of batteries, we will deplete the Earth's ability to supply this metal in a couple of decades, not 350 years. And along the way, the law of supply and demand will kick in and that will drive the price up so that it will be expensive as the demand goes higher and the supply gets smaller. Batteries lose power even when they're not in use, and lithium is a very unstable metal as its source. It must be stored in oil or some other liquid to keep it from spontaneously combusting and if it's exposed to water, lithium actually burns. Rapid charging and discharging of lithium batteries cause well-documented events known as thermal runaway, and this is a problem in the Boeing Dreamliner commercial jet as well as Tesla cars and many other systems. You may also recall that lithium batteries other than small ones in your cell phone and computers are restricted on aircraft and by the way any Navy submarines. And because they can have the thermal runaway each can catch fire and the fire is very hot and difficult to extinguish. So remember, don't use water on the fire if it's a lithium fire. It will also cause because if the battery is damaged. So several Tesla cars have been destroyed when the vehicle ran over a sharp piece of metal that penetrated the underside of the car where the batteries are and the batteries caught fire. So let's take a break now. It was a long stretch. I'll let you guys' ears cool down and we'll take a quick 60-second break here and be back in 60. It's having a job I can be proud of. I talk to other shrinks. Did you ever want to get your head shrunk? Well this is the best place to come to pick one. I've been doing this. We must have 60 shows with a whole bunch of shrinks that you can look at. I'm here on Tuesdays at 3 o'clock every other Tuesday. I hope you are too. Aloha. Hey, welcome back to Staten Energy Man on my lunch hour. And we were getting into a long tie rate about the differences between batteries and hydrogen and transportation. So we talked a little bit about lithium batteries but let's talk about all the other batteries so of course lithium is not the only kind of batteries. But other batteries including lithium in general are heavy. You may have noticed that there are not a lot of 18-wheeler tractor trailers that run on electric power and this is because if you put the required number of batteries on board to give you even 150 miles of range and your ability to pull your load the 18-wheeler would be too heavy to legally operate on a highway. You would exceed the axle weight rating allowed by the Department of Transportation on most public highways and state highways. In other words, you sacrifice cargo capacity and or range in favor of batteries. Also, there's a phenomenon called range anxiety that is experienced by battery-only drivers when they get so low that they're in search of a station and they can't find one and they only have a few miles left in their tank. They start to get a little anxious. The same can be said of hydrogen vehicles of course at this point because we don't have that much infrastructure. But the bottom line is when it comes to transportability batteries come up short in many respects. To give you a comparison we can use the amp hours per kilogram. A classic lead-acid battery renders about 55 amp hours for every kilogram of weight. A nickel cadmium battery gives you 165 amp hours per kilogram much better and a typical lithium battery gives you 685 amp hours per kilogram pretty impressive. In comparison, a hydrogen fuel cell which is basically a self-charging battery gives you 26,000 amp hours per kilogram. So when weight is a factor hydrogen energy density is hard to beat but truth be told you won't see hydrogen stored at that density and anytime soon the current technology isn't there. But hydrogen energy storage will outstep battery energy storage as all the nanotechnologies are applied to both of these types of batteries. The case for hydrogen is, so here's the case when I talk to people take people to see my 65 kilogram a day station at Hickam the main takeaway I want them to leave with is that all of that capability all that production of our station sits in a single 20 foot long iso-container and we also have in the compound two compressors nearly 400 kilograms of hydrogen storage at stores between 3,600 psi and 12,000 psi and we have two dispensers a 350 bar and a 700 bar to go with cars or big trucks and a chiller that we do use to cool our 700 bar hydrogen before it goes to the dispenser and all that fits in the basic footprint of a regular quicksups dies gas station that's 5,000 square feet of space that is your oil field if you compare it to gasoline that's compared to an oil field an oil pipeline an oil tanker ship an oil refinery and the tanker truck delivering your final gasoline or diesel product to your gas station all in the space of a gas station the fact is that if we did not have such a huge investment in oil infrastructure and if the US did not subsidize that industry and we paid the fully burdened cost of oil products hydrogen would win every business case over oil and natural gas or even coal every time if you have clean electricity and water you make it on site no transporting this is where I usually have the Ph.D. start arguing with me about opportunity cost of electricity and how expensive it is to use electrolysis to produce hydrogen stop already as the world looks at renewable energy sources to attain clean sustainable energy for our grid they will look to solar and wind in many locations particularly places without geothermal or hydroelectric and wind and solar power are characterized as intermittent renewables meaning that they do not have constant power outputs and with more than 20% of those intermittent renewables on your grid you must have storage to maintain that power for times when you are not making enough power from your intermittent renewables batteries will always be part of this mix but if you scale up to utility size and utility scale hydrogen or other storage such as compressed air or pumped hydro must be a significant part of your system what all this means is that as we look to the future not only will your house run on electricity but so will your car or your truck and the grid storage system needs to take into account transportation requirements so at large scale hydrogen will outpace batteries and the energy storage role will be hydrogen centric so here are some of the figures to mull over and these are figures that are pretty standard for the industry we use 65 kilowatt hours of electricity to produce each kilogram of hydrogen in an electrolyzer and that includes compression I've also been told by folks who run large wind farms that they can build commercial scale wind and sell the power at 4 cents a kilowatt hour and they say they make a respectable profit now that's on the mainland so let's take 7 cents a kilowatt hour amount to buy your dedicated power and run your electrolyzer and compressors that gives us hydrogen at $4.55 a kilogram and that's about $2.05 per gallon equivalent of gasoline so I applied there a 45% efficiency rate to hydrogen in a fuel cell over an internal combustion engine if you add all the capital costs for your hydrogen operation you're approaching about $2.50 gallon of gas equivalent without any government tax credits or any subsidies for hydrogen production the way that the gasoline industry gets all these credits and it's carbon free so now if you just put the convenience store into the mix you're making money and if you can get curtailed power even cheaper from some wind farm that's nearby or solar you can drop the cost even more and if the technology is going to make economies of scale make hydrogen capital costs go down and efficiency improve you make more money and the fact that you don't have to import water from the Middle East like you do have to import oil means that you can count on a stable feedstock yes even salt water and grey water can be used to make hydrogen your prices go down are you seeing a trend here so in closing this discussion let me just say that there are a lot of moving parts to this discussion but few people look at the cradle to grave fully sustainable, fully burdened cost of current technologies when they compare them to hydrogen let alone talk about the technologies that will impact in the future as I indicated earlier electrical requirements will go up energy storage will be critical component in adding intermittent renewable energy sources and the most likely technologies to improve battery performance and cost will have an even greater positive impact on hydrogen storage as well the fuel cell technology the hydrogen will stay ahead of pure battery but will always need some batteries in the electrical system you always have to have some batteries but the focus shouldn't be on competition between hydrogen and batteries it should be on moving hydrogen hybrid technologies forward as quickly as we can using CNG as a bridging fuel particularly for large vehicles and taking on an all of the above approach to reducing fossil fuels and burning fossil fuels and burning fossil fuel like you're burning money so that's my talk about hydrogen and a quick one-on-one on hydrogen and what the real numbers are what I'd like to do now is introduce you to a couple things I don't know if we can get a picture of this this is a good little book it's actually kind of old and I'll give you the ISBN number because it's worth looking at if you can find one 9622359-0-3 0-9622359-0-3 and it's basically a little pocket reference book I use this thing a lot because it's got everything in here from Julian calendar dates to what the little numbers mean on the top of your bolts and nuts to how to find the amp hours per kilogram for your battery storage to how to convert horsepower to joules or horsepower to calories or back and forth it's a ton of information and it's all science based and it's all fact you can get a lot out of the books like this I suggest you look at it finally I've got a couple things out of the news lately and this kind of talks to the future of hydrogen and batteries and it's about nano alloys 10 times as efficient as pure platinum in fuel cells so basically it says a new type of nano catalyst can result in the long awaited commercial breakthrough for fuel cell cars research results from Calmers University of Technology and Technology University of Denmark so that it's possible to significantly reduce the need for platinum which is a key element in fuel cells and electrolyzers but also very rare by creating nano alloys using new production techniques and these technologies are also well suited to mass production so remember when I said in my opening part about battery technology when it improves using nano technologies and so will fuel cells with both those technologies what we're trying to do is get the metal layers thinner and thinner and thinner so you have more surface area to react in your electrical reactions so this nanotechnology they've already broken through in hydrogen eventually will help the battery folks too but I think hydrogen will always stay out of the curve in nanotechnology we have another quick story here about Toyota launches a very affordable fuel cell vehicle for two bucks and it's yours and it's really just a quick advertisement because Toyota this year has come out with two great products that we won't see here in Hawaii for a while but one is a hydrogen fuel cell truck and the truck basically it out accelerates a diesel 18 wheeler like two to one it's amazing to watch how much torque and speed this thing has fully loaded but this particular article is about hydrogen fuel cell buses and you're going to start working in Japan and you can ride on a hydrogen fuel cell bus for two dollars that's why they say it's a two dollar deal there's another oh this is the Toyota truck one I don't know if you can find it on the website but the Toyota truck video is really great because it shows in the screen two trucks taking off at the same time one's diesel and one's a Toyota truck with the fuel cell and the fuel cell truck just walks away from the diesel truck so anyway I hope that this show gave you a little bit more insight into the real numbers the real facts about hydrogen as we see them from the side of people that work with hydrogen every day it's not just me I have my team at H-CAT the flukes from Blue Planet Research on the Big Island, Paul Pontio and his folks Alex over there Mitch Ewen from UPH and the University of Hawaii and the team that works on fuel cells just down the street from my office that focuses on fuel cells for the Navy we've had Steve Samansky on the show and his boss talked about making hydrogen fuel cells hydrogen electrolyzers they're so safe that they are used on Navy submarines, which says a lot if you've ever looked at what it takes to get something put on a Navy nuclear submarine, you just can't compare the rigors that those things have to go through so in closing, I'd like to thank our production engineer Robert McLean and our furlough manager Cindy Monofkai and hope you'll join us next Friday at noon for Stanley Energy Man and until then, aloha and think hydrogen


An interesting comment from Ian, BTC is a store of value if you want privacy use Monero. I would agree 99% with what you said for really, really strong privacy. Monero is much better, however, and this is a counter argument that is a valid counter argument because Bitcoin is a store of value, it has more liquidity because it has more liquidity, more value and broader acceptability and is easier to exchange. It's more useful as a currency and therefore it also means that it's used by more people, which means the anonymity set is much bigger. It's a bit of a double-edged sword, right? The specialist coin gives you better privacy, but in a slightly small anonymity set with slightly less liquidity and slightly fewer places where you can use it, the store value coin gives you, you know, Bitcoin gives you not as good privacy techniques, but a bigger, much bigger pool of participants in the anonymity set, many, many more places where you can use it in much greater value. So it's a difficult choice. Now, if all you want to do is get some privacy for your store value coin, then, you know, coin join is very useful information to have in the back of your mind when you're thinking about that. If what you're trying to do is use extremely strong privacy because it's life or death and liquidity isn't that important for you. If you're, you know, someone fighting a dictator in some horrible totalitarian nightmare scenario, then, yeah, I'd use Monero for that. And supporting me on Patreon.com slash A-A-N-T-O-N-O-P. Thank you.


Where can I go to learn Wing Chun? If you want to learn Wing Chun and you live close to us or you're in the nearby area Then you would obviously want to go to our school because there is no other school to learn Wing Chun the way that we teach it No, where else in the world However, if you are very far away and you can't make it to our school then we do have an online program, which is The next best thing we have all the curriculum everything that we teach in the class We have it on the online program. So you can follow along you can practice your friend It's been practice at home and you can learn all the material on your own. So That means that we do have seminars also that happened several times through the year and those may be times if you do Look far away is to to come take the time Take it get a plane ticket or a bus ticket Whatever you need to do to get to this seminar and then get the material in the most Intensive most condensed form because we are seminars so usually half day or four day long you and get all that material and Be able to take it home with you and practice with so those are some ways that recommend you to learn Wing Chun the last way is if you have Wing Chun schools around you in your area, then go ahead and try them out You know go go check out some other schools and then get the basics of Of a wing Chun and then also take our own online program and see how that will Add to your basic Wing Chun training you get from other schools, too


We are welcoming you to our webinar to discuss SARMS through RP round 4. So this is a the same presentation that we delivered through regional workshops recently and We're just taking this opportunity now to give you a webinar version. We appreciate not everybody can make it to a regional workshop So the format for today we're going to run through the presentation itself and then there's opportunity at the end Just to run through answers to your questions. The way this works is you can submit your questions at any time throughout the presentation What we do at our end is we just note them down and then we run through them We're also going to take a recording of the webinar so we can make the link available Will be sent to you directly and that way you can share it with your colleagues Etc. Again trying to get to people who just can't make it to the webinar today And we're also going to ask you to complete a really quick survey at the end Take about one minute of your time and this just helps us to develop Future webinars and ways of communicating. Okay, so today's webinar is your presenter is Ben Fee from Pearser. So Ben has been involved with the SARMS program right from the start and It's here to talk to you today about round 4 So there's contact details at the end of this presentation for the SARMS team if you need to get in touch directly But again, there's opportunities to ask questions throughout so now I'm going to pass over to Ben and He'll kick off the presentation on SARMS. Hello. Thank you to everyone for looking in today a good opportunity for us to Deliver the message across to those people who couldn't make it to the information sessions Which we delivered a couple of weeks ago up in the Riverland and down in the River Murray region Around Murray Bridge and also down to Langhorn Creek I'm just going to be going through the Presentation a bit quicker than we go through during the sessions out on the ground Obviously a different form of interaction. So bear with me I will flick through a few slides a bit quicker than we had previously But that Q&A session at the end will hopefully give us a chance to Catch up on any questions that you might have that weren't clear and there's always a chance to contact our regional support officers at any time to Fair the clarified anything that you have heard that hasn't been fully understood. So getting straight into it our South Australian River Murray Sustainability Program is a $265 million program and is really the irrigation industry improvement program element Which was driven through the Basin Plan Which it's the 240 million dollar program that is to return 40 gigalitres of water To the River Murray environment as part of South Australia's commitment to the Basin Plan So you'll see on the right-hand side of your screen We've got number four the irrigation industry improvement program and it's been delivered through three investment streams A irrigation efficiency, which we had $80 million allocated to water returns at $40 million in irrigation industry assistance at $120 million. Obviously we've been whittling away at that cash as we've gone through the previous rounds one two and three To focus on these three streams and we've had available under irrigation Efficiency the on-farm and off-farm sort of more traditional irrigation efficiencies Opportunities, but we've also offered through this program the three IP A new suite of activities that could result in water savings Primarily we started was looking at the notion of changing crop types from a high-water use crop to a low-water use crop and also Changed the configuration of those crops sometimes results in the water saving as well The industry has been innovative which has been fantastic and come back with a few new techniques as well and In particular netting has been something that we've seen implemented through rounds one two and three which has actually resulted in some pretty significant water savings and productivity benefits The water returns element which has been fully expended Which is no longer available in our round for round four. Sorry of the trape Just included a straight water purchase element But what that meant was that whether you came in through our stream one or stream two You'd be returning water to the program by returning water to the program You would then have access to stream three So you can have a full mix of all of these various Streams, but you couldn't simply go for stream three the irrigation industry Stream without having returned water through either streams one and two So once you're returning water through stream one and two You take those boxes in effect. You can enter into stream three Which really was where we focused on the business elements and this was all developed up in particular through the water industry alliance and great Work that was being done by industry Around the development of the base and plan with state government What is the alliance made sure that the industry's interests were conveyed and they have definitely been conveyed through the 3rp And it was really the stream three element irrigation industry assistance element That brought life to the more business side within South Australia Supporting business development and growth noting that we're already a fairly efficient state in relative terms against the rest of the basin So you can do all kinds of activities underneath this stream You can reconfigure each project and go into the market areas We've seen some training of skills, but the biggest area that we've really seen Being developed is the value add type of area within irrigation industry assistance packing sheds Packing equipment and a call rooms those types of things have been really significant in this space Plus this provides a bit of extra funding to leverage the more expensive activities such as netting So moving on We've made some pretty good progress throughout time With our rounds as you can see pretty much on an annual basis. We've had a round available and Rounds one two and three Ultimately has resulted in the figures that you now see on screen. We've offered around a hundred and seventy seven million dollars Out to a hundred and eighty six projects with some significant co-investment and jobs creation which has resulted for us in About eighty seven percent just it's eighty seven and a half percent of our water return target having been met So we're just under thirty five gigalitres of water on offer to the program Returning to the environment out of our total for a gig we've gone right throughout the region through rounds one and two and three and You can see that there's a fair amount of Projects that we deliver up around the Riverland region. It's about eighty percent of the projects Which actually kind of fits with the split that we've seen in water license volumes and also productivity between the Riverland area and the So below lock one Murray lands areas So we have had a reasonable distribution of funding right throughout which has resulted in some pretty significant works Across a number of industries and in particular with plantings. We've seen and some real increases in the traditionals grapes been quite interesting we've seen pulling out of the less marketable varieties and replacement with more marketable varieties and We've had growth in a new a few new areas Various for example, we've got some blueberries and the rest that have been put in which is great and obviously almonds have been Going gangbusters as well. So we've been happy to accelerate those various areas of industry It's been an interesting story over time with the the 3rp the demand was extremely high in rounds one and two and As I mentioned earlier that we have now run out of that stream to funding that actually occurred in round two So you'll see in the round two column there if you look at the reserve list number We actually had 29 reserve list projects that we weren't able to invite through to funding Just simply because they were looking for stream two and three funding And we had run out of the stream to funding at that stage which was around September or was September of 2015 We did go back and seek for some flexibility in our funding model and we weren't able to get that So unfortunately those projects and we're not able to be funded We then went to round three without our stream to funding available And you can see a significant drop-off in the amount of demand With 41 odd expressions of interest for round three What was also happening at a time there was some uncertainty around the allocations Water allocations for that year started off at a low allocation and built and there was also a change in the The market ability a market position sorry of a number of the commodities With some securing of those markets, which was positive which meant the people The perhaps less motivated to attend apply for around three What we're seeing with round four at the moment as we're Just over halfway through the expression of interest period is really significant interest Which has been great because we are saying it's the last round And it is the best value that we've ever had an offer and you'll see in a slide coming up that Despite the low number of round three participants. They actually had the best value in terms of dollars per mega liter out of any of the rounds To our funding over time just to give you a sense of where that funding was expended Really if you focus on the yellow elements in this graph there the round two proposals that we received through and stream one two and three irrigation efficiency water returns and the industry assistance element that was Really in round two we expanded the water returns element Let us to around three we can see in the green you had less demand, but what you can see is the blue Is the remaining funding that we've got for round four, which is 37 million dollars to achieve around five Big letters of water terms which does result in a very high water Dollar per mega liter rate Which we are happy to have an offer in the last round the highest amount that we've ever had Um in terms of the water returns you can see Once again, obviously the stream to the water returns element The volume of water that we could achieve we've actually gone Right to the amount of water that we needed to achieve a little bit beyond in water returns. You just see Here that our target we've actually gone just a bit above it in the the right hand column there in the yellow That water has not been returned to the Commonwealth government that still sits with the states considered to be state water What that does is provide us a bit of insurance policy going forward for how we might Achieve our target if we don't get what we need in round four And stream one you can see the blue element is what we need to achieve under our current round round four And we would hope to achieve that if we do end up achieving that and go a little bit beyond we've worked with industry and Kept to the plan if you like And made sure we delivered this in good faith So if we do end up going beyond 40 gigaleters, we will make sure we go back to industry and say hey, look, we've got some extra water here What would we all like to do with this extra water? So that is commitment. We've always had and we'll keep sticking to that Just in terms of the dollars available over time Coffee the dot on the right hand side there. That's the Commonwealth on farm for the irrigation efficiencies program That's the rate that they currently have an offer In effect what we started off in round one was around five thousand dollars per megaliter That's what people actually came at us with we did have Above that we were saying it was about five and a half thousand dollars per megaliter People opted in an average of about five thousand dollars per megaliter just above Round two it was just below five thousand dollars a megaliter Which was in part skewed by us not being able to take up those 29 reserve list projects And that would have come out to a fairly similar just above five thousand dollars per megaliter if they're included And then you can see as I said before round three we had very few applications come through but They got by far the best value for money per project What's great is in round four because we've managed the budgets pretty well That we've now got the seven thousand one hundred and twenty five dollars per megaliter available per project And that's an average a project May wish to put in a higher Dollar per megaliter price, but that will reduce the competitiveness of that project because the value for money is a consideration in our competitiveness assessment If obviously a project goes below the seven thousand one hundred twenty five dollars per megaliter, then that is something that Would increase the competitiveness of a proposal So there is a lot of information on this slide apologies But it is available on our website and as we said earlier this video of this presentation will also be available On the website a link through from our site So please if you need to revisit these slides do so at any time through our website but really what this is trying to say is that In order to participate you need to be able to return water and we call that eligible WAE which is the eligible water access entitlement which relates to those water access entitlements in the SA area for my region Which are class 3a and b which are irrigation licenses and then one four and five which are stock and domestic Recreation industry water so we'll accept any of those classes water. So if you hold that water on license and You're able to return at least 10 megalitres is the minimum to our program then We're happy to fund to consider an expression of interest for funding We don't want to see people leaving the industry. We really want to support those people wishing to stay in the industry And as you'd hopefully you'll be aware We actually open our expressions of interest in the 20th of march And we do really want those projects to be completed within 18 months But we would prefer to receive an expression of interest that States they can't meet that target of being Project completion occurring within 18 months would actually prefer to receive that expression of interest than to not We'll use that as evidence that there are projects that will go over The dates that we've got available obviously running around for pushes us back in our program timeline Um, and so please do submit if you are looking at going beyond 18 months have a chat with your regional support officer or any of our staff And we encourage you to submit an expression of interest and put in a realistic timeline for completion So irrigation efficiency stream one, uh, we need you to return at least 50 percent of your Your water savings and the amount of water that you do return to us is considered in the competitiveness assessment Um, that water in terms of the price, um, we've made it very clear in this round that we do have a set water price We're saying that it's two thousand nine hundred and fifty dollars per megaliter You know the current market price has been just around just below three thousand dollars per megaliter for the irrigation entitlements That may come down over time. We won't reduce our price. Our price will remain at two thousand eight hundred and fifty dollars per megaliter throughout this round and um, you're able to access up to 2.5 times that market rate if you do have genuine water savings through irrigation efficiency activities So that actually takes you up to our magic mark of seven thousand one hundred and twenty five dollars per megaliter that you can achieve entirely through stream one You want those water access entitlements to be transferred through to, um Our program by the end of 2017. So we're asking for those to occur in november december of 2017 There's no water returns stream two funding available for this round And irrigation industry assistance stream three is available But you must obviously be returning water in order to participate in stream three get access to that funding And the limitation is that you can access 50 cents of stream three funding for every dollar that you're asking for through stream one Now, um, that ultimately means that you can go above an average price of seven thousand one hundred and twenty five Dollars per megaliter Um, that's fine. You can go above that. We're giving people the ability to do that because it is a competitive process Dollars per megaliter is not the only consideration that we have in the competitiveness process and i'll go through that a bit more Down the track and you'll see all the activities against these outline within our guidelines So we really do ask that you go and you have a look at our program guidelines For round four which are available on the website So a little bit of reiteration here and i'll quickly flick over this Um, we are really wanting to Just confirm and reaffirm that the dollars per megaliter In terms of stream three You can achieve 50 cents out of every dollar being asked for through stream one And we do really need to have eligible water access entitlement Being returned to us. Otherwise you can't participate Um Your allocation if you do return water entitlement, which is the permanent water to us your allocation Which is the temporary water on an annual basis will be available to you as it has been in previous rounds For the rest of that water use a year. So if you do return water to us in november in 2017 You'll be able to use the allocation Attributed to that entitlement right through until the rest of the financial year. So right through until june 2018 The expression of interest form we normally go through that in the The information sessions won't go through that today If you do have any concerns around the expression of interest form how to fill it out There are a number of prompts throughout the expression of interest form But our regional support officers will be able to help you in going through that And the links are available on our website to be able to access that expression of interest form We also do have some usb devices that are Required to submit additional information So if you do submit an expression of interest or if you wish to Please do contact us on the numbers that are provided on our website and at the end of this presentation We'll make sure that we get a usb sent out to you as well That's to put some financial information on and to guide you there's a whole bunch of fact sheets and the rest that are included um Just to help people through our assessment process if you're to get through if we've got your financials up front We can assess things quicker and time is of the essence in this final round of through our paper So in terms of funding preferences, uh, we're really talking about the competitiveness elements now, uh of of our round four Um, we want to see as much war as possible within the given irrigation efficiencies that you can achieve We do want to see some innovation um With anything that goes into the stream three we need to see that you're able to achieve some productivity gains We want to see your business doing better Um, but the critical element that's been used to assess Throughout all of our rounds and we'll be in round four is the dollars per megawatt So we're offering an average of seven thousand one hundred and twenty five dollars per megawatt in round four The competitiveness of that proposal, um, will be largely Considered through the dollars per megawatt that you do put against the amount of Water you're returning. So if you go above seven thousand one hundred and twenty five dollars per megawatt You'll become less competitive. If you go below it, you'll become more competitive So that dollars per megawatt is important But we really really do want to see as much water being returned as possible from people in this final round And we are very interested in making sure that there are productivity gains if you enter into our stream three Irrigation industry assistant stream So they're really the three main ones that we're focused on It's the dollars per megawatt the volume of water and the productivity gains There is a process for each of the rounds that we have followed to the letter Right throughout and this is no different in round four We want an expression of interest put in where we really do compliance checks is the main thing that we do in that space The compliance checks are about whether you fit the rules and those rules are outlined in Not only the guidelines, but also in the expression of interest form itself Um, if you are then invited through the Through the application stage stage two Um, we will then have a much larger form that will be presented to you Which will be asking for a whole bunch of business productivity technically Supported water savings information Um, so we really do get down into the detail around the application The reason why we do that is with the expression of interest It's a really light on form We want people to entertain the idea and sometimes entering can be just a big enough hurdle in itself So we want to help people to enter through a very simple expression of interest form But then when we get to the application stage, um, you do have some time I'll go through timelines in a tick um to really consider what your proposal is in detail When we get to the stage two assessment we then take on the competitive ranking And that becomes critical around the business performance the technical Feasibility the amount of water saving and the The value for money components in particular If you get through that process, we'll send you a letter which says would you like to sign up to an agreement? Hopefully everything works out well there and you can see the agreement Which will be reflective of the milestones you put into your application form So we really do see for people to put in in your application form as accurate as possible milestones You'll see that when you get to that stage. Hopefully you'll do Um, then we'll basically put that milestone table from the application form into a deed and send that out to you to to consider Sign that off and we start delivering and hopefully everyone's happy with the outcomes And we are hearing some really good outcomes at a moment, which is fantastic from our round one two and three projects So the timeline just to give you a sense and this is getting very close to the end of the presentation We opened up the guidelines the round. So I released the guidelines open up the round in march 20th of march We are open to receive expressions of interest for Just over another week in the 21st of april We close our expressions of interest the dotted lines here show that we take all of those expressions of interest and we consider them Now once we've finished our assessment and we want to get them done very quickly We'll get back to you in may of 2017 And you'll see that the red line at the top there. They're the ones who haven't progressed through So they might not have hit the rules or the eligibility and compliance criteria Which as I said are very plainly explained in the guidelines and in the expression of interest form So for those that do get through we ask for them to submit an application And you'll have around six weeks to complete that application And then we'll take those in for assessment And once again, we'll do those assessments as quickly as we possibly can So around august september we'll get back to you with the outcomes in a letter of offer And then we'll have in september. Hopefully a funding agreement for you guys to consider And you'll see that out of those That some of those won't get through which is the orange line, but for those Green lines the successful projects that do get through We'll be asking for water to be returned as the first milestone Which is actually good because you get paid at that market rate of $2,950 per megaliter On return of the water to us on transfer of the water to us That means that you've got a bit of cash flow to get your project going And then you get into milestone delivery and hopefully we're all happy at the end and we have a A final report sent to us and you guys can reap the benefits So in terms of the way that we do our assessments is a just restating expression of interest is very much around the rules of eligibility and compliance The application is really getting into our full checks on all of the technical feasibility We just see if you've varied at all from the expression of interest and we do run that competitiveness assessment over the top So the EOI we may have to consider dollars per megaliter in terms of competitiveness, but really it's about the rules So that's a may The application we really do then look into the water savings the dollars per megaliter and in particular the value of the production So those three elements we do consider co-contribution. There is no requirement for co-contributions in terms of cash or income contribution The three main elements there are dollars per megaliter water savings and the productivity elements Our expert assessment panel and steering committee are the ones who really do all the work then in terms of Making the decisions recommendations through to the minister. So as a science program, we take on all of the Applications we help the expert assessment panel to understand those applications They then put through recommendations and funding per project to the steering committee steering committee then look at those projects And rank them if we are oversubscribed There'll be a threshold to which we can no longer fund because we would have run out of money And then they will recommend through the most competitive package to the minister for approval And that's the same as secured across all of the different rounds So taxation, this has been something that's come up over the rounds What's been good is the Australian government are now recognizing capital gains tax deductions on water facilities The science program and SA government obviously do not provide tax advice But do recommend that you seek independent legal and financial advice In entering into any grant because those tax consequences can vary Based on particular circumstances and from project to project. So please go and seek your advice and point out these Two websites the fact sheet on SAMHSA RP and the capital gains tax deductions on water facilities to your advisors We do have regional support officers available and are available right throughout the process Now it's really important with the regional support officers that you understand that they cannot write The funding proposal for you your expression of interest or application They can provide advice on the rules of the game, but they will not provide specific advice on how to position Your project or any specific technical business advice So they will help you though understand the guidelines understand what's eligible They'll be there not just through the application period, but also once you're actually delivering your project, which is really important They'll give you assistance right throughout that process to project completion You'll see that these details are available on the website And that we split the region up in effect above Waikaree across through the Riverland and then below Waikaree down through to the lower Mali so Brett Kennedy deals with the upper region Tasha McGregor deals with the lower region and Kim Walton is their team leader who travels across the region and deals with Some of the more complex issues at hand right across the region So please do contact these guys. They are the best avenue to understanding the the rules of the game Would really like to recognize the wood industry alliance And also recognize ice warm the international center of excellence for water source management Providing great support to industry and to our programs going through the water industry alliance does provide access to service providers Now it's important that if applicant applicants do wish to use a service provider to help prepare An application you do this at your own risk and please be aware of any payments and the impacts that might have on your business in Contracting in service providers, but that is available for you through the wood industry alliance's website The wood industry alliance does not endorse any particular service providers. This is an open site Which is the service that they're providing Through to you as the applicant So our contact details there The psalms 3ip website is available And please use it The stands through our peer hotline Of one three hundred three six four three two two will get you through to any of those region support offices. So Please have a look through to the website Please speak with our region support officers And there are guidelines available make yourselves as familiar as possible with those guidelines because they really are the rules of the game Thank you very much for listening Excellent. Thank you ben. It's Alice here again. I'm just going to help manage the question part of today's webinar Ben, we've already got a question come through on terminology. One of our viewers wants to know what are npa's? Sorry, there's a lot of acronyms involved in all of this and npa is a national partnership agreement It's an agreement that's signed between first ministers. So that's a premier of the state and a prime minister in most cases We've actually got a national partnership agreement agreed between our premier and the prime minister of australia To the 265 million dollar psalms program that are available publicly If you want to have a look at them, you can go to the federal financial relations website And basically we have to run our program a 265 million dollar program as a very large project So we have milestones that are set out very clearly in the national partnership agreement Which we have to achieve and we have to achieve those before we get our funding from the federal government And within that national partnership agreement are the rules That have resulted in us not being able to use the stream one funding In stream two. So this is why we don't have stream two funding available So we're still working with the comworth government on crowding a bit more flexibility under that national partnership agreement Unfortunately, we haven't been able to get that realized Around four that we will continue to work on that. So there you go. That's the long explanation of an npa goodness, thank you. Thank you men um, and then we've just got some general questions around regional support offices, so Um, you've shared the contact details, which is excellent So it's probably more a question around next steps and how to work with the the regional support officers sure, so, um, the best thing about our regional support officers is they've been doing this for a long time And they really understand the needs of industry The best thing to do is just to contact them. They're very approachable. They're out in the region You won't need to leave your property if you want them to come and visit you They will do that. Um, obviously, they're very busy at the moment. They've got a lot of people coming at them They are um keeping up with demand and we will throw more people that way if we do need to Um, so please make a call make an appointment if you can possibly get into one of the offices that might work Uh, but over the phone is often enough And then if you do need a site visit, um, they will entertain that Based on what their availability is But they're not just available during the application period if you are successful and you get through the application They actually come around and they help us with the monitoring of projects. They also help the participants If they come across any particular issues, so they really are your one-stop shop for anything through our pay Excellent great resource. Thank you, Ben. Um, just encourage also our viewers that you can still Got plenty of time to put questions in Uh, we're working through the list. We've got we've got time to take your question So just use that q&a button and drop it down for us Ben, uh, sort of a big picture question now. Uh, what happens if the program achieves more than 40 gig? Sure, so, um amongst the many slides there was one in there which had a big Star kind of blowout on it. Uh, which said industry Will This advice from industry will be sort of kind of what the wording was if we go above 40 gigaliters So our target is 40 gigaliters or 40 billion litres of water. We're currently at 34.8 gigaliters of water. So we're very close um, if in the in round four, uh Results in an offering of more than the balance, which is 5.2 gigaliters Um, we have always said that we'd go back to industry now. We've got some avenues through industry We've got our community and industry engagement reference group as we like to call surge Um, we've got that group that we'll go back to and we do have other heads of industry including arm and board irrigation trust Cheap executives or presiding members. Um, we go back to those industry players Before we take the next step on delivering any more than 40 gigaliters of water In effect, if the response is no, we don't go beyond the 40 gigaliters Um, and we still have some cash at bank We will draw the line And those people unfortunately who aren't as competitive as the rest would be the ones who would miss out on that specific funding opportunity But if we do have any cash remaining, uh, the existing national partnership agreement Recognises that the state then would be able to use that cash to further the outcomes of the national partnership agreement And that would not require any further water to be brought out from industry. So, um, we'll go back to industry first to have those discussions before we return in more than 40 gigaliters excellent thank you and Ben probably just give us a quick reminder of the closing date Yes, sure. Um, we've got the 21st of april is the closing date for expressions of interest Uh, so that's only um, friday week. It's not long away Um, everyone's got an easter that they could enjoy in the meantime and have ponder their expression of interest What it means though is that even if you've got an expression of interest or a project idea Which is 80 formulated We'd suggest that you put it in because then in effect you've got a number of weeks before we come back to you If we invite you through an application to really keep working out the detail on that project proposal So then you've got six weeks to complete an application form. So You actually do have a fair bit of time to really develop up the project idea We want to see an expression of interest at the idea stage at 80 of percent Um, we then in terms of developing it through uh, we'd want to see that that's well developed by the time you put in an application So expressions of interest close in the 21st of april Excellent. Thanks Ben. I've just had one more question come in. Um, it's a question around switching crops so um, sort of removing less profitable crops and therefore, um, I guess the impact on the water use Um, and how is that considered? Um as an application Sure, so um, depends on the crop you've got and the crop you're going to and in terms of water savings, um, we If we see a crop, um, we get evidence from the applicant that there is a crop that Existing crop uses more water than the replacement crop then there'll be a reduction in water use And so we can consider that to be a water saving. So it would be In effect, um, the amount of water used per hectare. So for example Citrus Somewhere around nine megalithus per hectare If someone wanted to pull out some citrus that didn't have the right marketability They wanted to go to a top and break where they could see a market Then you go from six, sorry nine on megalithus per hectare down to about six megalithus per hectare So there'd be a water saving of three megalithus per hectare Times by how many hectares that would be um a water saving We do have information sheets available online, uh, which point to the amount of Water savings that can be achieved through irrigation efficiencies. Um, we are happy to receive So that would be the irrigation infrastructure. Sorry We're happy to receive other evidence of the amount of water use that a crop would use Going from high water use to low water use In terms of a water saving. We also recognize that there are Other crops that you might put in that could use more water and will accept those under our stream three So if you were to look at an existing crop and replacing that with a higher water use crop We can entertain that as well and we can use that on the productivity side of things because in effect You might your business might be better off um producing for example almonds as opposed to maybe the citrus that we're talking about And the irrigation efficiency might be gained through replacement of inefficient irrigation infrastructure So to do this justice in a webinar is a little bit tricky I would suggest that that person with that question goes and speaks to one of our region's support officers To speak about the specific details, but there's a bit of an aw Yeah, excellent. Thanks Ben. Actually, it's good to know all that. Um, what do you start as available? Okay, so um in terms of sort of broadening a business offering or diversifying You know, what if someone wanted to for example move into Accommodation or tourism or hospitality offerings. So switching from primary production of crops into something quite different again Sure, there's a critical element within our offering is that we do not want to see people leaving the irrigation industry So there have been previous programs that have And in very different times and and perhaps suitable for the time Uh offered for people to exit the industry We want people to stay we want people to do better within the industry and we're talking the irrigation industry. So um, we can consider broad diversification elements of um of any business enterprise So if someone wants to go into A different area we can consider that we have previously had proposals come through on tourism operations and the rest And they have not passed the litmus test because that was seen to be going into an area outside the irrigation industry But if there were other activities which were linked to the irrigation industry, for example, there might be some Educational facilities and the rest that are developed up as part of an enterprise um That's the kind of stuff that might be seen by our expert assessment panel and steering committee as being close enough to the irrigation industry I think the point being Through an expression of interest if it's clearly articulated It's better to throw your hat in the ring and to test us out But it is important to have read the guidelines and understand that we do not want to We will not be funding people who exit the irrigation industry Excellent. Thank you Ben So that's it for our question section. Um, and just to reiterate The contact details so you can directly get in touch with the Sam's team Via the website. There's also a hotline and for People who are putting together their expressions of interest. There's a Really great range of resources and support available. So we encourage you to explore those You can absolutely get in touch Throughout the process of preparing the application Um, so the Sam's teams are there to support you through this Um, so any questions sort of that come up after this webinar, please get in touch