Welcome to Breeders Syndicate, where we explore the history of a clandestine scene through the eyes of the folks who lived it. I'm Matthew, owner of Riot Seeds. I'll occasionally be joined by my co-host, NotsoDog, breeder and grower from Mendocino. Welcome to the Underground. Hello. I think this is working. I think we're live, so I think we're good. You think we're good? Yeah, I think we're good. We can rock it. So tonight we're going to do the diesels A to Z. I know we've covered it before. Sometimes ad nauseum we cover super skunk stuff. However, I think this is going to be a good way to do it with our new platform being able to illustrate with pictures and whatnot. So I wanted to be able to do kind of like a documentary style thing with pretty much Notso narrating as we go along and covering what we can of the diesel story, which means we're not going to touch as much on the Oh, you lost the Notso, which means we're not going to touch on as much of the chem story, I think. Am I still here? Is this still live, everyone? Oh, there he is. OK, just making sure. I have no idea what happened.  So we'll put that up. We'll put that up to a fat thumb mistake where I hit the wrong button. That's all right. Yeah, see, we're live again. See, now you guys know we're live this time. So, yeah, we wanted to cover it all. We're not going to jump as much into the chems because we, you know, we've covered a lot of the chems, but we do want to do a serious diesel presentation. So without much further ado, where do you want to start?  We're going to rehash this, obviously, or whatever. So there's and maybe we decided that since it's the Thanksgiving holiday that we could pick a subject that everybody likes to argue about. Yeah, because it's one of those ones where, you know, whenever you talk about it, some people are happy. Some people are think you're wrong on some parts of it. And some people are offended. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Whenever we do this, every there is definitely going to be people offended. It just is what it is.  This is like everything that we're saying is like the best as we know it. Yeah, you know, new information pops up at different times. Sometimes it's good, sometimes not. But, you know, it's it's, you know, it's all wrapped up in one of those things where it became one of the most famous strains in America for a while. Yes. And then so how it originated gets battled about. And because it happened in the 90s, when there was a lot of secrecy, it took relatively speaking a long time for the story to come out. And for which people involved decided to speak when. Yeah, there's a lot of claimants to the throne of diesel. There there's no shortage to that, that's for sure. And which cut is the original, you know, and so from like, so there's different perspectives on it, right? And obviously, any time one of the ways that people get rep in the cannabis community or whatever is having some kind of tie or even responsibility, perhaps, for like a famous cut or a famous line. It's one of the best ways to get like canna longevity and fame, I guess you could say. Best way to start a seed company to kick off the seed company. Yes, definitely that for sure, especially if you're offering a clone that like other people don't have very much, right? So, you know, so there's that aspect of it. But then there's also the aspect is like sour and diesels became popular in the pre-marketing era of cannabis. They sort of became organically popular, and then the more popular they became, the more people hunted them out to like, you know, to find more of it. And then the more it got grown and then it sort of became a self-fulfilling prophecy, yeah, where eventually sour became popular enough that like literally, you know, people talked about diesel as gas. Yeah, and gas operated like a whole section of the market. It still does. It's still huge. I mean, every day I get emails asking, what do you got that's gas? I need the gas, you know, almost more than anything, people still demand gas. You know, and I think it's I think it's a number of factors. So it's interesting. You can you can hit sour from all these different angles. And as Matt said, you know, we'll eventually get to the point where we start chatting about like specific cuts and things like that. But like maybe even like a more general start, right? So, you know, a diesel and it's beginning and this is some confusion out there, but diesel was slang for good weed in New York in that era. Yeah. Right. Like so just so people know, there wasn't like a specific cut or a specific something that came out where before that name had never been associated with weed. Right. Because that's what happens a lot of times with famous strings. Yeah.  And then sour diesel came out and, you know, these diesel cuts and it became so famous that it pretty much swamped anything that had been called diesel before. Right. Yep. It became the diesel. Right. And so, you know, there was there's other things out there that were, you know, the people called diesel back in the day and it eventually got swamped by this one family. This is the family. Now, do you want to start about talk about what the original thoughts were that the diesel was? I mean, I remember when we first gone to the forums, it was a lot of people were saying it was just, you know, bag seed. And that was it, you know, well, that's pretty much held up. Self-chem 91, you know, that I don't think is held up just because now we've gotten a chance to look through a whole bunch of chem 91 S ones. Yeah. And and so it's definitely got other influences to it. But I do think it's true that it was it was some bag seed. It just there's a little bit more to the story than that, obviously. And that's where the confusion comes in. Yeah.  There we go. So here's the dog. You're your old favorite, right? Indeed. This is an old high times photo. I assume it was taken of maybe from G's, you know, place. Yeah, not a hundred, but I assume so.  It has a lot of traits that are very distinctive. You know, we've talked about them before, the leaf cannibalism trait. It's not everyone's favorite. Does it make for great finished bud either? No, it doesn't. Yeah, I have a few more good shots of 91. I want to mostly give people an idea of. How it will breed. So looking at the traits of the dog here some more. This is, I think. Jimmy Nits grow. What we're seeing is seven, seven thumbnails right now. So you're not actually giving us very much. Let me see what's going on here. OK, so it's not sharing it again. I got to get good at this. Let's see. Share screen window. There we go. Share. There we go. So this is Jimmy Nits pictures of it. And this is the dog. So we're looking at some of the traits of the dog here. And you will see some of these pass on to what we see later on. So if you go back a second, that pic right there, right? Yep, especially with what the leaf does. You know, that's a good shot. I can see that in sour. Yeah, you can see it in Sour's progeny, too. You know, and people if people want to take note, you can kind of take note of like the dark leaves, right? And some of the structure, it's obviously not exact by any means. Dog is much more of kind of a stouter Afghan. It is a little bit leggy, but nothing like the diesel. But it does. I do think some of that bud structure and some of those dark leaves and some of the way the leaves yellow and brown is pretty characteristic of the chem dog. And here's an old chem dog picture from High Times as well in the upper right corner. You know, a different way of growing it, obviously. Different style. Yeah, I mean, it's she certainly comes out in different ways. And so just so people know what's generally agreed upon is that sour is some combination of chem ninety one and skunk. And to illustrate that, I will bring this up. Let's see. And that's kind of where the some of the some of the guff comes in, I think, in terms of like what people say it is, right? Um, yeah, there's a there's a Polaroid from Skunk VA about some of the old super skunk. And I also shot. I also think you can see sour diesel traits in in that pit. Yeah, you know. So to me, it's basically a chem skunk. I've grown a lot of chem skunk hybrids. I'm not saying it's it's exactly that and nothing else. It could even have a couple of herms in between. But I mean, the general story is that these guys got, you know, they were getting some they were getting some some supposed chem dog, either that or a hybrid from this dude. And they found seeds in it and they collected those seeds and they popped them in the summer of ninety five and they got a couple cuts that they kept. And they call them diesel one and diesel two. Right. Yep.  And so he thought it was called sour diesel. Right. So we know the mom of sour diesel because we know the bud that the the the weed came out of the seeds. Yeah. Yeah. We know that we know the weed that the seeds came out of. Yes, sorry. So we know the mom for sure. It was this it was this cut and out. And it's also just so people know because it started another legend. The mom of it, they called diesel two, but some people called it headband. And so because there was this mystery of what the New York headband actually was, there's a whole field of headband cuts that claim to be that one. Yeah. The first original, you know, New York City headband. Right. These are some really early picks. One's from High Times, one's from Canna Bible of different sour diesel cuts. And then in the bottom right corner here, you should you could probably be able to see the headband. As it was stated in the Canna Bible, which is. So there's not there's there's different ones. And then there was a few. There's a few O.G. strains that got their name changed to headband, which added to the confusion. Yeah. You know, then there's names bandied about like day record, which is more this headband looks pretty cushy in this picture. Yeah. You know, and so and so it added to a bunch of confusion because outside of a really small circle, there wasn't really any confirmation on exactly what the famous New York City headband was. Yeah. Nor did people know that it was mom of sour diesel. That's correct. For a long time. That was not no. Yeah. That was a tidbit that came out pretty much in recent years, I think that was confirmed. Yeah. You know, and so as a result of that, like Matt knows a little this better than me, but like in terms of the forums, wasn't it like there was a bunch of stuff like it came out of the R.H. the RFK skunk. Yeah. And the and there was DHL in it. There was all these theories bandied about about a much more complicated lineage. Right. Yeah. Hawaiian RFK skunk. Northern Lights. Yeah. That was the the theory JJ put forward for it and it was a decent theory. You know, I don't think it turned panned out very well because our state RFK skunk was being passed around at the time. It was in the same kind of room. So a lot of the same crews were growing it. So it was it was a decent theory. No. And I mean, I also think, too, that like much more so than theories, it's like you have different people that are that are involved in the scene or whatever. Yeah. That come along and they tell their version of it and other people are staying quiet. Right. Yeah. And so for, you know, for a lot of times and a lot of cannabis stories, the people that come out first with the first story get get the most rep. Yep. That's why that OG Kush story about the lemon Pakistani and all that still is passed down this day like like biblical because people really think that's real. To be honest, regardless of all that, before we get into it, like a discussion about like the various the various versions of it, sort of what happened in my opinion is that, you know, the East Coast is is a is a big consumer area and they loved it. And I think that it worked really well. It had a really good zippy up high. It got people super baked. It tasted great. It had a pungent and very distinctive nose. And I also think the nose lasted for a while and didn't fade very fast. So yeah, when people were bringing it different places, like that that persisted. And so it just became something that people knew when they bought was consistent and good. Yeah. And so completely separate from the lineage, the vast majority of people that grew ever grew sourdiesel knew almost nothing of what we just talked about. Yeah. They got this cut as sour diesel or sour or whatever and people would buy it for for a good month for a good chunk and they like to smoke it. And so all kinds of people started growing. Yeah. I mean, on the West Coast and Mendo and Humboldt, it was a huge thing. You know, because it was it was like growing modern skunkweed. It got big. It was fluffy. It took quite a while. It wasn't the easiest outdoor plan. It did great in depths, right? Yeah. And it was it was kind of funny inside, depending it was temperature dependent. And a lot of times people, you know, it should go probably like 10 or 11, 12 weeks, maybe even 13, depending on the phenol. And most people will take it would take it back in the day as soon as they could get away with getting the nose on it. Yeah. So there was a lot of sour that was that was harvested between 60 and 65 days that probably should have gone 70 or 75. Yeah. And all honesty, is this the one that I have up here? Do you are you familiar with this one, the super leafy looking one? You know, I think that's the way it was grown. And I don't I don't remember where he took that one. So I can't really say I've seen people put up pictures of a plant that looks very similar to this one, saying, yeah, I got the original diesel one from the Canna Bible. But I just never really been able to confirm it just because it looks so different than any of the ways I've seen diesel grown. I mean, it seems like the thing about the the the thing about the bag seed beginning is that it which I don't know which way is the best way to put it. But it seems like that multiple people got multiple bag seeds even early on. Yeah. Yeah. And so there was probably, you know, at least there was a couple of things that were diesel. There was a thing that was headband. There was a couple of hours. I mean, even the people that tell the story say the guy that found sour diesel, he had a couple of phenos, but only one got out. Yeah. You know, I also real quick for anybody listening to the audio version of this after we upload it later, I highly recommend watching the episode because there's a lot more to it with visual aids and stuff. So definitely if you listen to it, go back and rewatch. Good. Yeah. So it got it got really popular in the sense that it was it's one in my mind. It's one of the best families of cannabis out there. Yeah. It has a really nice high. It burns really well. It's not overly dense, which is good, in my opinion, when it comes to taking bong hits or smoking a joint or anything like that. I think burnability is like an overlooked component. Yeah, I totally agree.  I don't know. I don't break up that well. I mean, this might be dumb or whatever, but like one of the things that I like to breed for is like, you know, weed is convenient when it's like in the dark at a concert and you can break off a chunk with your hand and stuff it into a pipe. And that's all you need to do and you can then smoke it. Yeah. Right. That's a good trait. Good. It's a good. Well, it also makes this thing where there's a certain amount when you're burning stuff, there's a certain amount of like air to air to material ratio that helps it burn. Yeah. And then that makes you get a good a good hit or not. And so I think diesels burned really well. So they were like a pretty effective delivery device as far as getting buzzed. How do you think the grateful dead came into play with the popularity of diesel?  Well, I mean, you know, for one thing, if we're correct in that, you know, Chemdog is the beginning of it or whatever that like, you know, the seeds that came that became Chemdog were acquired at a dead show. Yeah. You know, it was bagged seed there. And, you know, I do think in terms of like the 90s, especially, it's not so much like this anymore. But in terms of the 90s, grateful dead hippies were sort of the highway epicenter of the American weed market. Yeah. You know, it's there's a lot of different groups that grow now. And I'm not saying, obviously, they were the only people, but like, you know, kind, but sort of started being regularly spread about through dead shows and hippies. Yeah. And there was a lot of them growing it. And so as a result of that, like, you know, the people sour diesel came from were essentially hippies. Yeah. They like to go see the grateful dead. They like to go see fish. You know, the kids that like to go party and have a good time and see some music. And that brought together people from disparate parts of America. Yeah. Which means that mixed strains and that mixed seeds and people brought those things home, you know, they brought it from California to wherever it went to New York. It it it moved around. Yeah, it definitely did. So, you know, I think at the time, probably, like the grateful dead was like sort of like America's last nomadic tribe of people. It's an interesting way of looking at it. It's true.  Yeah. And they and they had to figure out a way to survive going from town to town. And one of the ways they survived was by hustling weed. Yeah.  And then it like and then they were growing it and selling its other hippies and then it it hermed and then it hermed again and and so on and so forth. I don't think that's true anymore. Yeah. There's no tour like that anymore. And like, you know, growing cannabis, especially, has gone into all kinds of walks of life. Yeah. For sure.  But for a minute there, it was kind of like it was spread around by a lot of people that were like that or connected to that. Yeah. So. Which one did you want to cover next? Which direction did you want to go? So really what we could do is I think let's put it this way, right? There was two different things going on. There was a scene in New York that was kind of small and indoor based where people were getting crazy digits for sour, right? People like AJ and Manny, various, various different groups. And then it made its way west because it was easier because with two fifteen in California and other places, it was easier to grow more of it in the West. Yeah, but it was still it was still supplying that initial demand back there. Yeah. Right. And I think for a while, it was just sour diesel. There was no other name or qualifier given. Yeah. And I would say maybe admit you can correct me if you think I'm wrong, but I think that the forums is where these all these other names started to percolate around. Yeah, I would think so. So from like, let's say the mid nineties when it came out to like the early 2000s, was their names or was it all just sour diesel? I, you know, I wouldn't know that's prior to my time. So I think it was all just, I think, you know, I mean, I got my cut and it was helpfully, it was helpfully called sour D. Yeah. And it's pretty helpful. Yeah, it was very helpful.  So then you get like stuff like, Oh, what is this? This is the Chaco. Yeah. This is the East. This is the this is the shroomy. Right. Yep. What were some of the other early names of sour? Amish was one. I think that was one of the shroomy other names for shroomy because they were because because because shroomy was supposedly from Pennsylvania. So it was sometimes called his name or Amish. I called it Cobb sometimes because Cobb did amazing grows of it. When people would ask me, I'd be like, either look at Chaco's. He's got a great grow of it or it costs. Right. Look at Chaco or like, yeah, why did, you know, every there's a lot of people that call the dog the skunk VA cut. Yeah. Why? Because he was online talking about it. And they were trying to figure out a way to label the specific thing he was talking about. And so, oh, it's so it's this one. Yeah. Right. And so the same thing happened with sour diesel.  And then it goes through a phase where lineage is important and people try to track down lineage. And then it goes through a phase where it's not important. And if it's good sour, it's good sour. And now we're in a phase again where lineage is really important. Being the first one is important and having the real deal is important. But there's probably like 15 or 20 different sour diesel names. Yeah. And even more so now in the past three years, I'd say many more popped up, so many more, so many more. I mean, so we've got like just the ones I think off my head that people talk about like East Coast sour diesel, New York City diesel, right? Amish Choco ECSD ECSD. The DHK cut was one, the Devil's Harvest Group cut. DHK cut. There was also the Dark Heart Nursery cut, the DHN cut. It's lost. Oh, no. I think I'm still going.  Let me know if you all see this. Are you there? Yeah, in my back. Yeah, I'm alive. I don't know what happened. But anyway, all right. I don't know how far Matt got with any number. The Dark Heart Nursery cut. So we had the DHN, the DHK. There's a lot more. Well, yeah, and then a little later came the res cut. Yep.  And so there was probably a number of cuts that came from red seeds that got repurposed.  It was sour diesel. They didn't really want to explain its origin. Yeah. So it got super confusing. And it's almost a little bit like the what happened with Hayes.  That only a tiny percentage of people really know where they originated from. Yeah.  There's a skunk debt cut. Some people attach my name to a cut. There's an A cut, the Hunter Mountain cut, the Catskills cut. One, helpfully called the real sour diesel.  We left out AJ. AJ's had his name attached probably first. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.  And the AJ cut has probably had like several cuts. Yeah. Have been called the AJ. It's kind of like ghost, O.G. And that, like, what's the original AJ isn't the current AJ. Yeah. Yeah. The original ghost isn't even the same ghost from the forums.  Yeah. You know, things change. So I mean, it's well, it is weird how it works. But then we're talking about something that was sprouted in 96 and it's 2022. Yeah. And so it's gone through like 26 years of clandestine shifting around, right? And it also was one of the most popular cuts in America for probably 10 years. Yeah. At least, I mean, to say it goes to your phases, you know, like it's been the most popular cut in America a few times for long spans of time. Yeah. I mean, I think I think the only reason why I said for 10 years is probably because it probably took until about 2005, 2006 for enough people to get ahold of it, that there was just so much of it that it could become probably like the most popular kind bud. Yeah. Because even though it was popular before, it's like you can only get so popular if only so many people are growing it. Yeah. So it did take some time to spread. And I think it remained popular right up until probably like this last wave of candy, kitty purple weed. Yeah. That took over and everything had to be, you know, some kind of yeah, some kind of gelato or cookie hybrid of some type, some it had to have a specific look. There was a lot of variations on the theme. And for the first time in about 20 years, kind of gas fell off for a minute. Yeah. You started hearing if it's not purple, it won't move. Yeah. You stopped seeing a lot of the sour beginnings of the names and stuff added to different strain names. Yeah. And now and what's funny about that is then sour had like a moment for two or three, four years where it wasn't very popular. And now it's had a resurgence, yeah, which is really weird because then you have a situation now where there's like 15 or 18 different names and everyone has everyone has the special, rarest, oldest, bestest. Yeah. Strongest, mostest. Yeah. The bestest, the grandma's, all of it. Yeah. All of it, you know, and there's a lot of certainty in an uncertain world in that regard, in my opinion. Luckily, most of them are pretty good. Yeah.  Which one was that? That was the Joe B diesel. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The the Kim 91, J.B. Yeah. I mean, yeah, the I don't know what I, you know, there's a thing I've told this story before, but there's a thing where I just had this one sour diesel cut for a long time and I never traded with anyone because I had it. Yeah. And then people started asking me which version I had and I had no idea. I still have no idea. Yeah. So occasionally I collect half a dozen of them or so and I grow them all next to mine in the same room at the same time in the same environment to see like which which, you know, what are the differences? Yeah. Right.  So I don't know what mine is. I still I kept at first I was like, oh, I'm just going to get this half a dozen or whatever and I'm going to grow them and then whatever one mine is. That's that's what everyone calls it. Yeah. Only that didn't happen. Let me see. I'm going to put up a picture just so people can see it. We're talking about here. Where's the sour is? I think that's it. It's going to be in this one. And is it here? Is that it? No, no, no. That's a chocolate. Here we go. There we go. Yeah, I need to. Is it is it up that show up? Yeah, I can see it. Yeah. Yeah. And just so people know, I think Matt can see comments. The format I've got right now, it's like hard for me to read at the same time. So I apologize if I'm missing stuff or if you see anything super pertinent, Matt, just speak up. Now it's just a black screen. Huh. Is it back up? It's back up. There we go. OK. I don't know. It's probably like four weeks in. There's a nug of it. That looks so much like Chocos. Like it is like at least this this this particular, you know, piece. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I got that. We got we got that cut around 2000 and we've never lost it. And that's what I consider sour diesel. And if you if you pause it for a second, you know, when people were when we when you showed those pictures of the dog, the chem dog earlier, and I had you pause at that other one where you could see like the leaf rust and death, the weird necrosis and stuff. If you look at that sour diesel right there, you can see that same kind of issue. Yeah. Right. So the very, huh? Yeah. Go ahead. So the very first sour I got, there's a lot of people that have sours that variegate. Mine doesn't variegate. It does that. Yeah. Whatever you whatever technical term you'd call that. It so that's not really like somebody messing up on the nutrient or whatever. Like the dog, it does the thing where it starts to eat its leaves about halfway through sometimes, and there's not a whole hell of a lot you can do about it. Yeah. Sometimes it's more pronounced than others, but it almost always happens. And that one right there, it never variegates ever. It just does that. You know, I was going to show this real quick. This is a panda's cut that keeps being passed around his mass super of the diesel sour dub. It also has that same trait. It also has that. Yeah, it has a very similar trait in that regard. So that's and then like my LA cut, my headband, you know, and then other sours I see people have, have like more of that chem D patterning variegation. Yeah. It doesn't do the leaf rust, leaf death, necrosis type yellowing. It has its own distinct thing that it does. Yeah. You know, and I'm not saying mine's the fur. I like, you know, I don't know. I don't know what I don't know what mine is before I got it. But I can say I've had it since then and not lost it. Yeah. Right. And it throws bats and, you know, more importantly than that, it's it's got like just because it's the first one, it's got what I consider to have like the distinct sour nose. Yeah. You know, and can we talk about that a little bit because like that's something that a lot of people, even to this day, like, oh, here, oh, it's got the sour nose.   So what I will say is like the diesel family, right? That particular one, it smells, it has, I would say it has gas, but the gas is almost on the back end, right? Where a lot of diesels, it's it's on the forefront. It's like the fumes of the first thing that hit your nose. Yeah. That one has gas, but it also has this weird nose crinkle in the sense that, you know, sometimes you smell things that like should be gross, but it's weed, so it smells delicious somehow. Yeah. It's got kind of that. It's got like a nose crinkle gas that's a little bit sour, that's a little bit off. Yeah. Right. That's my perception of it, at least. And it tastes really the flavor carries over pretty strongly. Yes, that's a big, big trait of sour. I'd say the general. Yeah. The flavor itself of what you get on the nose is what you get on the palate, right, where I think a lot of a lot of the more modern stuff as far as diesels and sours go, which I still love a lot. Like the fuel nose, the gas nose is like very prevalent. It's like the it's like on the forward. So that right there, although I didn't tell you that, Matt, when we were setting some of these up, but all those East Coast sourdiesel picks that I sent you. Yeah. Right here. These are all from the homie pip. Yeah. I mean, he didn't grow it, but he he's who gave me that version of East Coast sourdiesel. Yeah. And so I ran this one next to the Chaco and they're identical. And so if you see that one, hold on, go back one. If you see that one there, it's got to me like that's a nice cola. It's got a very delicate, feathery, you know, skunk kind of like overlaying Calyx's kind of approach, right? A little bit of fox tailing going on where like if that the actual sour that I have was much more of a chunk. Yeah. Right. There was my very chunky bud. It was it was very chunky. There was more side buds to it. That East Coast sourdiesel would throw bats, but they were delicate, feathery, looser bats. I want to say something real quick and for people who don't aren't familiar with greenhouse and outdoor. And that's kind of like me. I didn't do a lot of it. So when you're looking at plants, it's they look very different indoor to greenhouse to outdoor. So if you're looking at this and that doesn't look anything like my East Coast sourdiesel or my ECSD cut, I don't know. A lot of it's going to have to do with the morphology from it going indoor to outdoor greenhouse and all that. So I just wanted to make that clear for people because a lot of people try to, you know, make those associations by looking at pictures of cuts and saying, this is this is the same cut, you know, and that's a major jump going outdoor to indoor. So I do think and that's a good point. And maybe we could segue into that for just a second. Sure. Which is there are some strains that are very easy to identify visually because they tend to perform in different environments, whether it's indoor, outdoor, greenhouse, they tend to perform similarly enough that they're easy to identify. The diesel family in general is not that way. It can come out very different, even in people's indoors. It's very sensitive to light. It's very sensitive to food and whether it's organic or salts or whatever. And so to me, the only real way to test diesel really well is to grow it side by side to itself in the same environment at the same time. Yeah. So you can't see it in this greenhouse right yet. But in that greenhouse, I had about seven types of diesels all growing next to each other, same food, same size pots, same light. Obviously, it was the sun. I've done the same thing inside, you know, and so that's really where you get to see the nuances. Yeah. I am not good at and I don't think anyone is really that good at looking at diesels or certain strains like that online and being like looking at this pick and being like, oh, yeah, that's it. When it's being grown K and F and under an LED in somebody's environment that's not yours and you don't grow it like that. So I think that, you know, I really do believe that you kind of have to like compare same to same. Yeah, I agree. This right here, I was I didn't load up a picture of indoor sour for whatever reason, the ECSD, but I did keep a picture of Super Skunk Candy, which has a very similar morphology budge structure to what sour looks indoor. It's very similar to the ECSD cut specifically. I mean, I'll say, you know, I'll say that when I grow diesel, I see I see Super Skunk and I see chem dog in it. Yeah, I can't guarantee it's the only thing in it. But I I see traits that pass down from both parents. Yeah, you know, easily. And I've grown a lot of all of them. So, you know, it take that. And I also think that like sour for everyone listening, diesels in general is our modern skunk. Yeah, I, you know, I agree that sour, you know, I think that fuel and gas and that nose crinkle and all that weird. I think that's all offshoots of like that rank RFK, like all that skunk stink. Yeah, I think it's just all plays on the same nose. I put up pictures of Cam 91 again so people can get another idea for the look of Super Skunk. But if you go go back to one more. That one you can see it on that one and you had another one in there. Oh, one more back. There you go. That one. You can see that one. You can see when I was showing my picture of sour diesel and he was showing that sour dub. Yeah. Right. That so that's three different cuts. You can see that same weird leaf curl, browning, leaf death. The whole bit. Yeah. That's a trait that passes, in my opinion. And another trait that I see in Super Skunk a lot and I only ever see it in Super Skunk are these little what we call them dog tongues, please. And they're a little slightly rounded, not very resonance leaves.  Usually you'll see those little things. And it's a trait that runs through Super Skunk. And it's usually easy to tell Super Skunk because of that trait. It's one of those identifying visual traits.  Yeah. And then there was probably something from, I don't know, would you say like the mid 2000s on where there was a whole batch that started getting named on the Internet? Yeah. Right. And then it fell out of popularity for a minute. And now there's another whole batch that has gotten named on the Internet. And again, it's like, I know, you know, Jay Plant speaker has asked people not to not to name it after him, because it's not his. But what happens is, is you tend to name it by the source that other people would know it. You need some kind of descriptor. Yeah. So it ends up being not so sour or J.P. Sour or Skunk Tech Sour or this sour or, you know, or or whatever.  Because at one point, I think I had like nine or 10. That's a lot of them. Sours. I didn't keep all of them, but I was trying to collect them to see what the hell was going on. Yeah. Because for a long time, I thought there was just a couple of cuts. And then I realized there was a ton. Yeah. Keep going. My headphone broke real quick. Your headphone broke. Yeah, I got to switch headphones. Keep going. So, yeah, I mean, I I. People are talking in the comments. I'm going to look at, you know, the the thing about it, someone just asked something and I wish I'd cry baby on right now to explain it, but somebody was asking what are the main terpenes of of Sour. And I don't think that terpenes tell the whole story. There's these volatile compounds. I hope I don't I don't mangle the word, but he would see alls. Files. Files. There's there's a number of different scent compounds. And I think sour diesel and skunks in general have a relatively complicated chain of those. Yeah. So it's a combination of terpenes and, you know, volatile gases and other types of things that combine to make that aroma. Yep. Right. And so I think they're called the soul so far. Something sulfur compounds. It's on to my time. Volatile sulfur compounds, BSC. Volatile. Yeah. So yeah, because, you know, the even with like the super skunk that he's got posted up there right now, it smelled unbelievable the last two weeks of flour and the first three or four weeks of post harvest. And then it faded and it didn't store that well. And it became kind of generic greenweed. Yep. So those terpenes were not long lasting. That was not the kind of weed the super skunk itself that you would want to store and let chill for a month for best effect. Yeah. That was the kind of weed where like as soon as it was smokable, you wanted to start ripping it. Yeah. Because it was going to fade. Where the chem dog was the reverse, it took almost a month for it to really come into its own. Yeah. And I think the sour is a blend of the two. The sour tastes great right away and it also holds it for a while. You know, so. It holds it pretty well. Some of the super skunks do not hold that skunkiness super well past drying. It doesn't last long. Super skunk is best fresh and becomes generic pretty fast. Yeah. Yeah. That's the hardest part about it. It doesn't store well. You know, it doesn't, it does not store well. No. I wonder if that, you know, like we always hear about people like stopping growing skunky stuff because like they didn't want to get popped or whatever. I wonder if that another aspect would have been not storing well. Like that is a major important part of, you know, artists long to store. It didn't store that well. And it was only moderate potency. Yeah. That was the other component. It's a classic example of a strain that does a couple of things really, really well. Yeah. But isn't is incomplete. I mean, that was the whole point of the super dog project really. Yeah. So you kind of take the lime green color from the super skunk and its flavor and some of its visible crystal formation, right? Mm-hmm. And add that to the frame of the chem dog, which was denser and much more potent and longer lasting. Yeah. So you were trying to see, can we get, can we get the good parts of both into each? Yeah. You know? What's weird though is that if you made, if you made dry sift, not water hash, but if you made dry, I actually think some of the stuff was water soluble. Mm-hmm. But if you made dry sift with the super skunk and you jarred that and treated it nice, the smell profile would stay for a long, long time in Keith. Yeah. But in weed, it would oxidize and go away. That's weird.  It didn't get you that high. And I say that as like a big fan of it, you know? Yeah.    It really benefited. It was denser and it took longer to cure. Its flavor and its buzz really benefited by you kind of leaving it alone for a few weeks. So they bonded well together because you could smoke the shit out of super skunk for a few weeks and then finally start hitting your dog and then there would be a time period where both were good and then the super skunk would be bunk and the dog would still be good and then you'd harvest again. Interesting. And they essentially might have been two different types of super skunk, but just because they were two different expressions, you could bounce between them.  Yeah. Right? Yeah.  Okay. And so he bred away from it. It had a muddle, not that great a high and the stuff that we all don't like as much like the citrus and the floral and all that, that had the more up buzz that he enjoyed. Yeah. I'll believe it when he comes on the shows and tells it to me. I don't really believe that story. Yeah, I mean, you know. I'm going to hear it from him personally. That's the thing about all the old timers, right? Is that there's like very little, it's all their remembrances. Yeah. You know. There is someone though that grew a lot of skunk one from Robin Sam in 1978, three are going to be interviewing soon. And he actually has a documentation. All of the pictures we could imagine was even in high times selling, you know, in the THMQ showing that he was growing it, selling it, it was moving. And he has very good memories of it, very accurate. And he's really quick with it. So I'm looking forward to that. You might actually prove me wrong. You know. That would be dope. The more opinions you get to it, I mean, that's kind of the getting back to sour. That's kind of the crux of like people having one sour story is there's probably like half a dozen people loosely associated with the creation of sour in one form or another, right? Yeah. And two or three that are pretty central to it. And they all don't agree on exactly how it all went down. Yeah. Even amongst themselves and publicly. So, you know, at a certain point it's like, who do you trust? Yeah. Who do you talk to? It's hard. It's hard. Yeah, it is hard. It is hard, especially because a lot of times, and you know, and Matt and I deal with this all the time, but a lot of times when you interview people, their first goal isn't historical honesty. Yeah. It's making themselves look good. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of part of being human. Yeah. Telling the history in a way that suits them, you know? So the more angles you can get on the same subject at times, it can be better. But this is a picture from Rascal. And the reason I chose this picture was because back in the day, it was so hard to find any good pictures of Jesus. But also realistic pictures, because there were a lot of people growing stuff that wasn't it. His showed the, in my opinion, how it looks the best. Low resin production. His wasn't as foxtail-y, but I mean, it gets pretty heavily foxtail and looks a lot like super skunk in that old, sensy picture. But for people to be able to see what Jesus is, it was again, in my opinion, this is a super skunk S1, not a super skunk chem dog, D-hybrid, like the Kenna Bible said. But you see all these wonderful expressions of super skunk, even a little dog tongs in the diesel. I was hoping that some of this genetic testing that came out was gonna start revealing some of these connections and lineages. So we would have data sets to go with the oral histories and the stories, but so far that's been elusive and hasn't really happened. So we're stuck with the stories. But I will say that this is just one guy's opinion, but diesel is probably up there with my all-time favorite family of weed. It's up there to me with haze or something along those lines in terms of like, it's definitely like, take it to the island type of bud. And most of them are pretty nice. I grew, when I realized that there was a bunch of sours out there, I took my sour, the ECSD from Pip, an NYC diesel, the Joe B, the Amish. Clarify the NYC diesel, clarify that for people. Clarify the NYC diesel for people that it was not the SOMA one. It's definitely not the SOMA one, no. It wasn't even related, it was from Bald Eagle? It was from Bald Eagle, yeah. It was from Bald Eagle. And then I got a couple others and I grew them all side by side indoors and in a greenhouse two or three times in a row, right? And it was interesting because they, when you're growing like the same family like that and you're seeing sisters to each other or half says whatever they might be related to each other, they're definitely all from the same family. Yeah. So some of them had dark, had very dark green leaves. Some of them had very light green leaves. Yeah, the, some of them smelled like the Chaco, I grew the Chaco and the East Coast sour diesel from Pip. They were basically, I think the same. Yeah. And they have like to me what I consider to be more like an LA or like a headband smell. Oh, interesting. But the New York City diesel from Bald Eagle was like pure fuel. Yeah. Like dipped in gasoline and then you smelled it. No other notes of anything, just like pure nose crinkling fuel. Some of them had skunk, some of them had a mix of skunk and headband. That one was fuel. The Amish was pretty nice, but compared, out of all of them, out of all of that first batch, I think the ECSD that Pip gave that supposedly half of Death Star, that particular cut that the Chaco or whatever was my favorite of the ones that weren't mine. Yeah. But they were all different and other than the East Coast sour diesel and the Chaco, none of them were the same. Interesting. And then I grew them again, I think the second year. And that year, remember it was the second Cannes Illuminati party we had? Yeah. I remember. I brought four or five different types of those that year. You know? I remember the Amish real well because that was my favorite for flavor anyways. Yeah, but actually that year I didn't actually bring any of my own sour for some reason. Like it didn't end up in the comparison, but I was growing all the newer ones and seeing how they performed. And some of them were shorter and fatter and yielded, you know, a little nicer. Some of them were taller and more feathery, you know, and their formation and stuff. And so, but they were all variations on the same theme if that makes any sense. Oh yeah, totally. You know, they were all, they, you know, but I did find it interesting like my headband has kind of, my LA has kind of lighter leaves. The NYCD from Bald Eagle and another one both had very pale leaves like that. Interesting. So there was a couple. It's like all these different expressions of similar stuff coming out of the same lines. But then there was one that, but then there was another one that, that mine and the dog and one other diesel had very dark, dark, dark leaves. Yeah. Like olive colored, not lime at all. And some of them stayed pure green all the way through. Some of them variegated and some of them did that weird leaf def thing like I was talking about. Makes sense. All those different traits from, you know, super scones, you know. So that was interesting too. And so, you know, I don't know. I mean, people get all uptight about like, everyone's, everyone's sour now. Like it goes back to the mid-90s. It's the original. It's the best one. It's the this. People are attaching their name to it and trying to sell them for high dollar. The good thing for me at least is that despite all that chaos. Yeah. It's better weed generally than what's been popular lately. Yeah. I agree. So it's only, uh- I agree. So it's only an improvement. You know, over all these other purples and all these different things that have been running. Not that I'm against purple by any means, but just like the purple only era, you know? Yeah. Choco is not chocolate diesel. Somebody just commented that. Chocolate diesel is different. Choco is a dude from the forums that got a cut of sour diesel named after of him because of how he traded it, I believe. Was that accurate? Was it Choco? Huh? Yeah, he got it. He got named after him because it was the one I kept referring people to go look to. That was it. It was just- Oh, it was you. Yeah.  You're welcome. You're welcome. Well, anyway, so yeah, it got. He was a guy on ICMAG. Yeah. Right? Excellent grower. And, you know, he ended up getting a cut of sour diesel named after him. Yeah. It's kind of the movie. Yeah. I saw someone said that Amish is a cross of Sour and Headbanger. Come on, guys. Come on. I mean, silly. I mean, there's a lot of different stories about these different ones.  Amish- Yes. No, the Amish- Really old. I will all agree with Matt on there 100%. Yeah. Amish from Shroomy far, far precedes any Headbanger existence. Yeah. It's a little bit off on the ears, which is why I was giggling, you know? And so, yeah, there's a whole bit of it where it's cool that there's all this like renewed interest and trying to figure it all out. Yeah. Right? And one of the things that's made diesel cuts a lot more popular, I think, is because that strain became so popular for so long, it's almost like the NL5 hazes, where there's just more phenos of it than almost any other type out there. Yeah.   And so it's pretty widespread. People have access to it, I think. And that helps something gain popularity. Yeah, definitely does. And then people wanna figure out, oh, well, which one is it? Which one is this? Which one is that? Because everybody wants the original real one, just in the sense that they think that that one has to be better than all the ones that came after it. Yeah, it's the original. That's, it starts out the best and it just loses as it goes down. Isn't that how braiding works? It just loses. You know, sometimes, but sometimes things get better too, you know? So, I just wanted to, this is another Super Skunk Cross. This is my Blue Preskunk, which is the Giesel Blue Bonnet. But I just wanted to show this because you can see a lot of the Sour traits coming through, very heavy in it, very obviously, it breeds very dominant or the Super Skunk traits, I should say, which you can see in Sour and all the other Super Skunk types. Yeah, you can go down grandchildren, great grandchildren when it comes to Super Skunk. And if someone's selecting towards those traits, you will still be seeing those traits and often you'll be seeing those same scent profiles and whatnot. Somebody was asking which, there's some spammers in our comments. Oh yeah, cool. Someone was asking which one has the dark one, the dark leaves. The cut that I have has dark leaves. There's a lot of- It depends on how much you feed it nitrogen too. It also did, yes, and the light source. Like I said before, visually, they can be very hard to tell apart in different people's rooms because they are very environmentally and spectrum sensitive. So they perform very differently, depending on where they're at and how they're fed. And it's interesting when Pip was at that party and he smoked that ECSD, he was like, dude, that's some of the best I've ever seen it grown. And it wasn't so much a testament to me knocking it out of the park or anything like that. It's more of a testament to like, sour's can be really hard to nail. Yes, they can. You can make sour super boofy, super fast.  And so you don't know why. So when you really knock it out of the park and you get its full potential, it's full buzz, it's full nose, everything. You're just like, oh my God, this is some of the best weed on earth. Yeah. And even when you miss, it's still usually pretty good. But you know that there was better. Yeah, especially if you've already had better, you're like, mm-hmm. That's what I mean. Yeah, you know that there was better. Yeah. You know, I don't know. So there's- Let's get into the LA. I'm gonna show off some of the headband LA right now. All right, so the LA is, I told that story before as well, but just so people know, the LA is the first headband that I got. We got it about a year after the diesel. So we got it in 01 or so. And we've had it since. And it's, it used to get sold to Sauer all over the place. But as you can see, that's what Matt's throwing up. That's the same greenhouse that that East Coast Sauer diesel was in. You can see that that thing throws straight bats compared to the ECSD. Is that the Malawi or a Durban in the back? Farmer. Yeah. Yeah.  There's might be some NL5 Hayes. There might be a Malawi. There's a Panama, I think on the far, on the right. There's a Panama from CSI. The old cannabia gin, Charlize Panama, right? Yeah, there's some on that, that those years, whenever I can, I like to throw experimental stuff out there and see what happens, you know? Yeah. I like putting plants in the sun if they, if you can do that. So. Who loves turpenaline, loves it. Yeah, I like turpenaline, you know? I do. I like it mixed in with other things more than just straight, pure. Yeah. Distringent turpenaline. But, especially if it comes with a buzz that I like, I can handle it. Yeah. You know, but that's most things. So yeah, that's my headband right there. Again, I don't know any inch. It's very, it's very sour. It's very diesel-like. It's a little different in terms of its buzz, but it's obviously, you can just look at it. It looks like it's from the same family. It's bigger yielding, especially in the sun. And it's one of my favorites. For a lot of times, a lot of people can't tell the difference, you know? And a lot of broken. It's sour. Huh? Can't tell the difference between this and what? Sour. Yeah, okay. That makes sense.  And it's mostly because of the buzz, you know? It has a really great buzz and it has a really great nose. And so for a long time, when it came to diesel family, I had that cut and I had that sour diesel cut that you showed way earlier. And I was super happy with those two things for a long time, you know? There are some of my, I mean, I've grown them over and over and over again in every situation imaginable. Outdoors, greenhouses like that one, indoor.  In there, I think those pictures were taken probably like October 25th, something like that. Not this year. This is a number of years ago now, but that was late October, right before Halloween. Yeah. And so they do better sometimes as greenhouse plants because you really have to get nice weather to get them to their full end. They take a while to form out, you know?  Or I try to get as close to Halloween as I can and even go a little past it if the weather stays nice. And if you're in a greenhouse, you're a little more protected from the weather so you can inch out a few more days, right? Yeah. Because it doesn't get as cold and you don't get due and you don't get all that other stuff. But yeah, that's the, you know, that's the headband. And those weren't very big plants. Those were just plants put in 15 gallon pots, vetched for probably three weeks, four weeks and then they got flipped. How does she change from greenhouse to indoor? How does she vary? You know, she's changed a lot. So in the beginning, it didn't really matter where you grew her. She was a champ. In fact, there's a lot of old buddies of mine that changed their whole situation by growing that inside because you'd get basically one and a half to two per light. And that's back in like the old single ended Hortelux days. Yeah. You'd get one and a half to two per light all the time, no problem. And it was fireweed. Yeah. And outside, she was a little bit more, like I said, you'd get good years and bad years, right? Because there's a potential on that if you don't know the bud to size ratio going on, you can get a lot of larve. Yeah. You can get a lot of almost weed, right? And so there was a long time where you were growing weed where like there wasn't this like modern hash market like there is today. So a ton of larve would make your tremors cry and was also problematic, right? So you had to know how to trim that thing up. And I'll say now as she's aged, she likes probably greenhouses the best. She can still do really well inside, but she doesn't like bulb heat, if that makes any sense. She's fine with like actual nature heat, but there's something about heat from a lamp that she just does not vibe with at all. And one thing I should shout out, because I have some friends that have tried to grow her, she eats like a champ. She can be really hard. The more she variegates, the hungrier she is. Interesting. So when she's perfectly healthy, it's actually really hard to find the variegation on her anywhere. And if you bloom her when she's heavily variegated, she won't come out nearly as nice a wheat. And so she needs strong food and she needs calcium. Not so much cow mag, but excess calcium. You can just put in straight cow without the mag and she does good, but she can be hard to feed. All the sours can be hard to feed. You overfeed the sour at the wrong time and you kind of ruined it. The ECSD doesn't like as much heavy feeding as that one probably would like its house. No, and I didn't actually send you those pics, but from that same greenhouse, but the following year, I have this picture of probably like 40 or 50 East Coast sour diesels growing in front and then my sour growing behind it. And they're almost done. And there's like this sea of green with the ECSD. And then as soon as it hits mine, it's all yellow and brown. Because all those big fan leaves are eating themselves and dying before harvest or whatever. So it's like a line in the greenhouse. You can clearly see where it starts. And that's one of the reasons why, like I think that side-by-sides are so cool because to really assure that people all the time now on IG especially, they reach out and they want to like identify cuts based off a couple of pics and something their buddy says, it's really hard to do that with a lot of cuts. The best case scenario for proving it's real is either getting it to someone that you hope can identify it or trying to get the cut from a different source and growing them side-by-side and seeing what you can see. Yeah. So, you know, they, I got distracted by the comments. Yeah, me too.  I'm like, fucker, I was there.  Come on. So, you know, but that's, the thing is, is that as far as diesel goes, it's been reborn. Yep. There's new legends. There's new stuff going on.  So I haven't, but there's other people that offer seeds of it. Yeah. V-axis of it, you know? Yeah. Things along those lines. IVLs. Huh? Oh no, there's no IVLs in the LA Kush yet. That's right. No, no, but of sour and stuff like that, there's not even any seed lines of LA out there other than what CSI is released. Yeah. But the popularity of me talking about it and the fact that he released it and people found a bunch of fire, and especially in the LA by Kim D. LA CK was fire too.   But I don't think they have it. Probably not. But it's okay. You know. It's okay to want. Yeah, I mean, there's also a thing too where it's like, it's not even like I'm trying to sit on my high horse about it or whatever, it's just one of those things where it's like when interest and money comes along in something, all of a sudden it appears in places. Yeah. And especially to people that aren't like particularly concerned about history or lineage and they're just trying to make a buck, sure they're going to offer it for 500 bucks a clone. Yeah. Maybe 15 or 20 people buy it on it and they make a chunk of money. Yeah. And all they needed was a Sharpie and a label. So, but yeah, I mean, I think honestly, I don't have any idea if my headband is the real headband or the first headband or the one from New York. I know we got it as headband in 2001. We got it since. And just having grown it for that long, I would definitely say it's closely related to sour. Yeah. How, whether it's a parent or a sister or a half sister or something, I couldn't tell you. I don't have definitive proof, but just looking at all those picks, you can obviously tell. And then, if you got a bag of it or whatever, it is, I mean, some people it's their favorite weed. It could be diesel bag seed. It could be any number of any up and down the line. It could be the original. It could be next to the original. It could be 19. She, she variegates like the, like the ChemD. Yeah. That's so weird. But it makes sense though, because it's just, to me, it's a Super Skunk trade. I see it through all different weird Super Skunks without having to even touch ChemD.  But I was like, what if, what if ChemD is like an Afghan expression of, of dog Super Skunk and the headband is like a Sativa expression of dog Super Skunk. Definitely possible. Definitely possible. Within the family, I'm not saying it's the only thing and either one, I just throwing it out there is like, when I look at them and I look at how things grow and I look at like leaf similarities and stuff like that, they're obviously closely related in some way. It's just how. Yeah. But the most important thing is to me, like that sour and that LA are two of my all-time favorite. They're probably on my top five. I could smoke them all year every day. I really enjoy them a whole bunch. And I like quite a few of the other diesels too. I'm not trying to put mine on a pedestal or anything like that. What do you think about people who qualify diesels as Roadkill Skunk? Do you think that they are potentially in the same scent profile? Do you think, what are your thoughts on that? I would agree. I think diesel, I think, I think when you get that fuel nose, I think that's only like a couple degrees away from Skunk nose. Yeah.  I actually think that sour and diesel family is modern Skunk. Yeah. I think it's the modern Skunk family that survived. And we're hunting for this thing that like mostly exists. And I'm gonna make you qualify this again because you always say this, you say it's a modern Skunk family. Do you mean modern Skunk one family? Do you mean modern Afghan family by Skunk? Or do you mean by the scent profile? The way the, does it grow like Skunk one? I mean, modern. So to me, like it, I actually probably think it like, this could get me in trouble too, but I think it's like, I think it's like, I think sour diesel is like ancient Skunk, but improved. And what I mean by that is it's like, imagine if instead of breeding it towards citrus and floral and grapes and all that, you bred it towards gas and fuel and headband aromas and weird nose crinkle and sour, right? But we've never seen that in Skunk one, huh? But we've never seen that. Oh, it's definitely not pure. No, no. I mean, I think, you know, I think he, I think he intentionally bred away from that. And I also don't think that this is pure Skunk. You know, I think it's got Keminid. It's obviously got some Keminid and that's where, and I think that's where the power, some of the power and some of the added density and stuff like that comes from. So you tend to think it's more Skunk one based as opposed to the Afghan tea base for most of these things. I don't know if I would say that, but I also don't like qual, I mean, to be, I didn't send you this pick either, but our same friend, Bald Eagle, he had this Colombian strain that he sent me. Remember I lost those in the fire? I have a picture of the headband right next to that Colombian. And they're not the same, but man, did they look related. See, to me, when I look at like greenhouse plants and outdoor plants, they all kind of look the same. I don't have that trained eye. So it's hard for me. You have a lot more experience in the greenhouse seeing the variation between plants and stuff. So I think it would be hard for someone who doesn't have that like me to be able to see that similarity past but it all looks kind of similar. Yeah, I mean, that's one of the benefits of growing in Mendocino County in the 215 era was that you got to do indoor, you got to do light depths, you got to do outdoor greenhouse, you got to do all these different kinds. And so for someone like me who keeps a lot of the same strains around for a long time, that means you get a lot of different expressions of the same strain. And you really get to see how it performs in different conditions. It's super important to have that eye, I think. I lack that for greenhouse and outdoor, but it's one of those things that I'd like to eventually, at some point in my life, catch up on because I think it's super important to be able to have that. I almost feel bad now because I got distracted and I could have dug on my phone and given you various picks from inside and different things and shown you how many different kooky ways they actually look. Yeah, I mean, expressions, the most interesting part to me is I learned more about it and how plastic these plants are. So if you want to take it a step back though, right? Yeah. Is that until I saw those Colombians, right? Yeah. It clicked something in me because before there was this aspect of like, you know, the Colombians that you would see would be these big, huge, crazy, stretchy things. I'd never really seen like too many like somewhat bred Colombians in a certain direction. And when I saw that, I was like, oh, so obviously in Skunk, there's a Colombian element, right? What if sour diesels and this headband and stuff like that are like- Are you talking about Skunk one? Yeah, 100%. Okay, okay. Cause when I think Skunk, I think Afghanis cause that's what the first term of Skunk was. So I think to be fair, right? Just to take it even further step back is that it seems like no matter what story of sour diesel or headband or anything like that, you believe that it was a merger of the chem family, right? With the Skunk family. And whether you believe that was the MSS cut or you believe it was the RFK cut or you believe it was the DNL cut, right? Whatever tale of origin you wanna lean on, they all seem to agree that there was this blending of chem family and some kind of 90 Skunk family. Yeah. Right? And so what happens when you blend those things? That's what I think all these different diesels are showing us. Okay. In a way. If I had to get my guess on it too, and there's some that lean more Afghan and there's some that lean more Sativa. Yeah. Because it's in there, right? There's probably more Afghan than Sativa, but like you look at, there's a reason why really good diesel takes, you know, in a lot of cases, 11 or 12 or 13 weeks. Yeah. Right? That's pretty long time. There's a lot of Afghans that run 11 to 12 weeks too though. No, that's true. Yeah, there's a lot. But the reason I was asking was because recently, you know I've been digging through the old high times a lot in the old magazines and all the home grounds. So what I've been doing is going through the old THMQs and I've been going through up until about 1985, going through all those and trying to figure out where was the first time people were using the term skunk for cannabis. Because like we kind of know that like the term skunky started hitting heavy in the Afghanis, but I wanted to see if anybody was referring to Mexicans or Colombians or any of that other stuff at any point before the 80s. And skunk never happened, never happened in any of these magazines or any of that. Up until they started referring to Afghanis as skunk. Then you started getting red hair skunk and Afghani skunk or that skunk bud, Kentucky skunk. But it took up until that. So I don't even know if any of the Colombians or Mexicans truly had that kind of scent profile to be adding to it to make a skunk plan. I mean, the thing is that so if you take, let's say for instance, that just for the sake of pure argument with speculation, right? That the headband or the sourdies or something like that is a combination of some blend of super skunk and some blend of camp. Yeah. Right? If you just take that right there, then from the super skunk side, you have Colombian, Mexican, some kind of Afghan and then Afghani. Yes. Right?  Right? Yeah. And so it's more Afghan than it is Sativa, but that doesn't mean that some of them couldn't have a tall, leggy growth rate from some of that Colombian or some of that Mexican. Oh yeah, yeah. I definitely think that. That's all I'm saying. I was more referring to the scent profile of skunk that most people identify with skunk, like that skunk. But even if you consider what I just said is true, then sour diesel would have the Afghan that was in skunk one, the Afghani, the maple leaf that Neville mixed it with, right? And adding the chem. And the chem, which to me, and this is what I'm bringing up right now, so people can see the illustration of it. I think it's also super skunk, so it'd be doubling up on the Afghani if that was the case. Again, I point to my little dog tongues, the fact that just a pure super skunk without anything else, no chem in it, does the same kind of leaf traits, you know? Yeah. So that would be almost, if that is the case, if I'm correct on that, it would almost be like a doubling up on that Afghani, reinforcing that. And since we don't know the origin of the chem at all, you know, and we're not even 100% sure what the, you know, and we don't know anything about the origin of the maple leaf either, other than it came to Neville, labeled maple leaf, and he named some phenose. Yeah. So there's a lot of mystery in there. But what I will say generally speaking about sour is that it seems like it has a sativa frame, most of them, right? And then it stretches, but then it has some more, it varies how much indica influences in the buds. Some of them are pretty chunky, some of them are a little bit more feathery and a little bit more layered, right? Yeah. And it has some density and some potency from the Afghan, and it has, you know, the stretch and, you know, some of the buzz from the sativa and it blends in all these different weird ways. Yeah. And it just depends on, because honestly, that New York City diesel, I actually told you like when you look at it growing, it was very similar in growth in terms of the way the plant looked to my headband cut, except for it was about three or four feet shorter. Oh, wow. So it went like squat and wide, right? Where mine kind of went big and tall and floppy, but like as far as leaf shape and, you know, serrations and leaf color and the way the bud formed, there was quite a few similarities. Yeah. It just looked like a much more Afghan version of the same thing. It stayed shorter and squatter and wider and mine wanted to get tall and throw like big forearms everywhere. Yeah, I want to grow bald eagle someday. That one looked pretty cool. It did look pretty cool. I don't know if he has it anymore and I lost it in the fire. So I... Dios míos, fires, killing me.   From three different fires.  From a distance. I've been losing my hair, if that happened. Could have had an effect. There could be some graying that went on or whatever else. I mean, luckily I share and I backed a lot of stuff up from different people, but I did lose some things in that era that I have not gotten back. This is a good question that you can actually comment on because I think you're working on this. How about epigenetics affecting one cut to acclimate into two different environments over a period of time in reunite to be judged as being different or the same? I am doing that right now. So we don't know, but I will say that CSI and I have a little experiment going, right? Where we gave each other our oldest sourdiesel cuts and we gave each other our chem dog cuts and we gave each other our chem D cuts. And we're going to see A, if we think they're all the same and B, are there differences? We're absolutely positive actually that the chem dog cut is the same. But they've been separated for, I mean, I think he got it in 06. So they've been completely separated and never exchanged for the last 17 years between the two of us. Yeah, I'm fascinated by this because I've always had that theory about acclimation and stuff. And I'm very interested to see how plastic the chem 91 cut is. And I also have another theory because chem 91, even in the S ones, it's pretty fricking uniform. So it was probably, you know, either bag seed, bag seed unintentionally self or a work line, whatever it is. So I think it won't be that plastic between the two separated. I have something interesting I could add to that. Yeah, which is not definitive by any level, right? But when him and I traded, right? He runs a pretty simple organic setup these days, right? And it's, you know, most of his blooms are geared towards seed making, which is obviously different, right? But we obviously vetch different. We were having a convo last week, I think and we were talking about different methods. And I do something right now that some people call synganic, right? Which is that, especially in my moms or whatever and I've been traveling and stuff, it's been easier for me to blend some organic and some salt together. Yeah. And use that to grow my plants, right? Heresy. Huh? Heresy. I know. I know.     Salt life, bro. But so I, yeah, I grew a blend of, I grew a blend of salt and organic amendments and stuff like that inside, right? And, so I traded him some stuff and he hit me up and he was like, man. And I was like, what? And he's like, your plants smell way stronger and veg than mine do. Yep. That's cool. Which I found was pretty interesting. Yeah. That's awesome. So we started chatting about what we were feeding them, you know, and you know, and when he was growing flour for market, right? He used to do all these different, you know, he used to do all these teas and all these amendments and all these extra special things all the time to get it just exactly perfect. And now he's, you know, he's got a decent amount of stuff going on. So he's like, he tries to keep it simple. Yeah. And he grows really nice weed, but it's like he, you know, he's vegging organically with a lot of dry amendments. And I'm using some of that and then some salt. And he was like, he straight up was like, every plant you gave me is more pungent in my mom room than my own chip in veg, which I thought was kind of an interesting observation. Yeah. I don't know what that's gonna lead to or anything else, but it was, you know, yeah, it was interesting that he already had that kind of feedback on it without even blooming it. And he was like, your plants smell stronger, you know, in veg, I noticed it when I brush them and when I touch them and when I work with them and then I go and I work on the same strain that's mine and it's more muted, whatever that means. And that interesting. So we haven't figured out. Well, I mean, what I think it means personally is that the plant wants what it wants, right? And if you give the plant everything that it wants as far as food, right? Then it's able to do all the various processes it wants to do and reach its potential. Yep. And I think a lot of times with organic, especially indoor organic, you're not actually giving the plant everything that it wants all the time. Yeah. It's because it's like, I kind of look at it, this is like, might be blasphemy for people or whatever, but I kind of look at it like, organic gives the plant a lot of things that it likes, but sometimes it struggles to give the plant exactly what it needs. Yeah. Because when you give a plant really, really high quality, and I don't mean Athena or anything like that, but like something like canna or cutting edge or somebody that's actually decent, if you give them really high quality salts, the plant has to do nothing but absorb those. And it's a lie that people talk about where if you use any salt at all, you'll kill all of your beneficials. Yeah. People don't know this, but like, or some people don't know this, but the plant absorbs salt through its roots. That's what it absorbs. And you can't tell the difference between a salt from like cutting edge or canna and a salt that's organically derived.  I am. It is true. It's true. I'm not saying that one's superior to the other because- No, but it is true. What I'm saying is that like when you bathe a plant in nutrient that has salts in it, it's almost like an IV, the plant has to do nothing. It can just, as long as the pH and the temperature is right, it can just absorb that food right up into it. Where in organics, oh man, in organics- He agrees. Those same salts and those same things are bound up in like more complicated chains that have to be broken down by microbes and bacteria and stuff to release the salts. Doesn't mean that organics not gonna do other stuff like enzymes and a whole like soil food web and mycelium and different things that like, so there's all this complexity to it, but essentially it's really, really, really hard to get a perfect organic mix indoors in pots, especially small pots. Much easier to do in beds. It's much easier to do in large amounts of soil than small.  I found in smaller pots, it's easier to be syngannic and have a bunch of organic and then still feed a light PPM or EC, whatever you choose to use, salt-based. And then that just kind of gives, and to me, the goal of an old mom, especially some of these things are 25, 30 years old, is like keeping them as healthy as possible. Yeah, these are things that are annuals that should be dying.  Sometimes it can be- There are some cuts I've never seen be go back to what they were, no matter how healthy you try to get them, you know? Now, you know, what happens too is that when it is true that salt will kill some organics, but that's mostly at like high ECs and stuff like that.   Yeah.  Most organic liquid amendments are just people breaking it down for you ahead of time so that it's easier and more readily available. Yep, and easier to apply. You know, but some stuff you put in your soil it might take two, three months to even break down. Yeah. And what rate does it break down? And what if your plant wants more of it than you have to offer? I'm not trying to get off on some kind of nutrition tangent but I will say, and this can tie into sour diesel that I'll tell you a funny story from my friend John who runs Cutting Edge. Okay. There's this product he came out which is a carbohydrate product but it has some potassium in it that's called sugary. Yeah. Right? It's a carbohydrate based sugar product. So he's got these clients back in the East Coast that grow a ton of sour diesel and they call them up furious.  Yeah. What do you mean it ruined our diesel? How did it ruin our diesel?  Right? Yeah.  Yeah. So they actually made a product called sour D, right? Which is the exact same product as sugary but instead of extracting the carbohydrates and sugar from sweet fruits. Yeah. He extracted them from tart sour apples. Interesting and that made a difference. And then those people grew it using that and the sour flavor came back. So even the development of the nose could potentially be based on the type of food you're using and what it balances at. Didn't we just say that when elements are analyzed whether organic or salt, it will still be the same thing? Right, exactly. But so those, that's very true but that's the 17 macro and micro elements. Okay. That's not all of it's. That's not all. Two different types of sugars that are just sugars or two different carbs, changed it? Yeah, maybe the sugars and the carbs like feed different bacteria. Oh, that's a good point. Yeah, that's a good point. Who knows? I don't know. I'm not saying that's not a story that has a definitive ending. Yeah. It's just an anecdotal story of like he changed up his nutrient a little bit and it changed the flavor profile of the same strength. Yeah. I remember Botanical offered like grape sweet and like all these different kinds of sweets. I always wondered if that was legit, like berry and like if that really would. Yeah, in the beginning it was just modified and then they came out with berry sweet and yeah, they came out with a number of different ones. You know? And so I haven't actually done that experiment with the sugary or anything like that myself but I will say that I have some friends that grow in living soil. And they have some similar strains that other friends I have run that grow in a very different style. Yeah. And the living soil stuff is overall much sweeter. And you know, much more sugary. It's a sort of biology. It just, I'm not even talking about soil, I just mean like the weed that comes out of it. Okay.  And then I have a friend who grows the exact same stuff in salt and they get a much different flavor profile than the living soil people. Yeah, I definitely believe that for sure. So that's kind of what I'm saying is like I'm not gonna sit here on this episode and try to like tell you anything definitive about why. I'm just saying that certain strains are sensitive enough that even what style you're growing and what you're feeding them could potentially impact the chain of things that occur that make the nose that you perceive. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. In a nutshell. Do you recognize this cut yet? The one we haven't touched on. That cut? This is the Day Wrecker. It's one you haven't flowered yet. Wait. Yeah. Is that what you also call original diesel? Day Wrecker. This is what she looks like. Yep. I have that. I have had it for, I don't know, a number of years now, right? And I've never actually managed to flower. Notice the little dog tongues. So I don't have any opinion. Notice the little dog tongues in the Fox Tales. It has a lot of sour traits. These are traits. No, that's interesting. I have not seen that picture of it. I like a lot. Some of these are gray skulls and some are THC, I'm sorry. For getting his name off the top of my head, but he deserves credit. They're great pictures. Yeah. So yeah, that one is also, that one's been percolating in the collection for a while. I'm hoping it'll bloom at this winter. That one, Matt gave to me, helpfully labeled original diesel. Yes, that's correct. And I don't know any history behind it by that. Some people call it the Day Wrecker. It's a hard one to trace back. It really is. I'm gonna grow it next to my other diesel family cuts and see what I think. It certainly grows a little differently. It's a little bushier. To me, and I think Pip agrees on this one, it's one of the more potent of the diesel families. One of the most potent.  It's a little strong. It's a little strong. I would say it draws from the Afghan end. Yeah, it draws from the Afghan end. How many days does it take? I mean, I know Pip would say 84, but how many days would you take it? Yes, 70, 77, right in between there, 11 weeks. Right in that same range. Yeah. Right in that same range. So, yeah, no, that's one I have to prepare. It's a great breeder too. It's a great breeder. Yeah. I think not just catching a lag. There's a bunch of cool discussions going on. I might, I might catch a lag a little bit. Am I here? Test it once. There you go. You're back. Oh, man. I'm back. There's a bunch of cool comments about nutrition. I've thought about doing like a solo show recording about nutrition for a while. I just haven't actually pulled it together. But it's like, to me, it's like a fascinating topic because I've grown at different points in my career. I've grown the exact same strain side by side under same everything but feeding them different. What do you guys think about a not so story hour show too? I think it's a good, I've been trying to push him to do it because he's very good like in audio book voice, like with not being interrupted by me saying, yeah, all the time. And I know people get annoyed by that, but we're trying to, you know, continue the conversation and make it not, you know, but I'm looking forward to it. So, prod him, poke him. It's my fault. I should have done it, but I haven't done it yet. He'll get to it. I mean, I could say that, but nutrition is something that is, it affects sour and diesel cuts a bunch. Yeah. And it affects a lot of strains a bunch. And it's one of those things where it's the closest thing to religion that weed growers get, where they're convinced that whatever they're using, whatever they're feeding, especially organic and KNF and living soil types, that they have stumbled upon the word of God. Absolutely. And so if you try to talk to them about what you've experienced, sometimes it can be hearsay, it can be, you know, I mean, they can't burn you at the stake, but they might want to. They definitely will want to, that's for sure. Yeah. There could be some Salem witch trials or something like that, because, you know, there's, I think salts get a bad name in certain regards. And I think organics, you know, is poorly understood in a lot of ways. And I'm not going to hijack the whole show, but it is interesting much more so than almost any strain I've grown or any family of strains that I've grown. If you start playing around with food and light spectrum, you will get way different results with diesels. Yeah. Definitely. You know, you really will. Like I've grown, you know, I've grown them under different light spectrums, metal highlights, high pressure sodiums, double ended ceramics. You start changing the food. That's something that really responds to changes. And that's what makes it so hard to identify, too. Under ceramic metal halides, I remember it almost had like a more cushy type, but it wasn't foxtail-y. It looked almost delicate, small, cushy. It was really weird for a sour, the ECSD cut chocolate. Somebody was just saying in the comments, I'll just, bottles are poison.  Bottles are just a form to hold a liquid, right? And if you get like a really high quality hydroponic nutrient, right? Especially ones made out of high quality minerals, those minerals are just pure forms of like what the plant needs, you know?  But really, really high-grade salts, it's literally just like, you know, there's minerals that the plants are absorbing and they have them in this order and they get them from a really clean source and there you go. You know? So it looks like we made it, hour and 45 minutes in talking about diesel. Oh my God. And it's lovely components. Well, there's also something. So like I said in the beginning, nice argument for your Thanksgiving weekend, you know?  Sometimes I say the most innocuous things about diesel and I get hate mail because I poked a hole in somebody's story. So it's not to tell anybody that they're wrong, it's just, this is just our opinion. Yeah, and not to always poking holes in someone, so. You know, I mean. It's what you do.  Wake Brewing, go check them out. Great craft brewing company. They hooked it up to Thanksgiving. Amazing Thanksgiving brews. We have our sale going on at riotseves.com. We are restocking, we just restocked like tonight. I should have had it up earlier, the Santa Cruz wreck, which is the Blue Dream Santa, Santa Cruz Blue Dream crossed to Arcadia train wreck. We just restocked that, we restocked some smellboat stuff and use coupon code Black Friday, 50% or I'm sorry, 30% off or coupon code FIM 50 and you get 50% off the FIM spray. You got anything not so? No, I just hope everyone had a happy Thanksgiving or at least is enjoying the time off. Harvest is mostly through for most people and you know, trimming is either well underway or paused. So I hope everybody survived and I hope everybody has a nice holiday. We'll see you next week. Thanks for showing up everyone. Thanks to everyone who threw in some super chats. We appreciate you. Lots of love. Peace.