Hey y'all, how are you guys doing?    A little bit of wine. I'm gonna be doing a little bit of my makeup. I've done most of it. You guys, I don't wear a lot of makeup anymore. I don't do the contouring and all of that much anymore. I literally do foundation. I don't even conceal. What am I concealing? I don't want to do anymore. I did a little bit of eye makeup. I'm gonna do a under eye blue, excuse me. And that's it. Ooh y'all, excuse me. This wine got me belching a little bit. I'm gonna do a little bit of under eye blue just to add another dimension and then put on a lip. I'm gonna do a red lip. That's gonna be both. I may do a burgundy lip. I may not do a red lip. How y'all doing? This is not really a chit chat. Do y'all set goals for yourself? You only goals? I am a type of person that I don't wait for the new year to goal set. I just do it. And I don't have a date of year because there are certain things that's gonna take longer than a year. Let me put in this damn eyeshadow.  Oh, I'm gonna have to fix that. So the goals I have set for me, I have it spanned out to last me three years because that's how long it's gonna take me to accomplish everything. Let me fix that nose, Miss Happy, you guys. I think I need to do my brows. Anyway, you guys, how y'all doing? I had a lot of comments on my last quote unquote chit chat.  Y'all, excuse me to get some glowy. Look at that. Look, just a little bit. I got cheekbones. Now, if I was skinnier, it would be a lot of cheekbones. My family has great facial bone structure. The women in my family do. And when we at our healthy BMI, you can really see it, but you can see I have defined cheekbones child. I think I'm gonna do a little bit of this heel, heel. It's like bronzed and isn't this beautiful? All these different four. And that's it, you guys. I mean, once I put this bold lip, that'll be enough in my opinion. And like I said, I don't know if I mentioned it in my chit chat or my vlog. I'm gonna go ahead and get some context, you guys. I'm a super person to wear. Woo, girl, I have a stigmatism. So it's really hard for me to put in the contact, to find the contact. I'm literally in one of the types of, like, okay, this could be my damn contact. Let me see, let me see. This could be my contact. And this is me. And it falls, just like that. Excuse me, it falls. It takes me like 10 minutes to put in one.  And I'm good. I don't have to put, you know, on contacts. This is a red lip. I'm gonna layer my lip colors, you guys. That's what I do. I'm gonna layer it. And then I'm going to try to do a ombre, but we don't know. Ooh, I don't like that. That's cheap. It's wet and wild. It feels cheap. I'm gonna go in with this burgundy, which is also wet and wild, but it doesn't feel like wet and wild. Do I have it? Yeah. See that? That's pretty.  I want it to be deep. Let's go in with this elf. You see that? Uh-huh. Yeah. Now that's what I'm going for. Nice to do these brows and let's do this how. What else we can talk about? Girl, I know this is not a real chitchat, y'all. So many y'all waiting on me yell, but girl, yeah, I hope that melanin hair care doesn't, you know, fold either. But at the end of the day, like I mentioned in my previous chitchat is a business, y'all. It really is. I just, I wouldn't have such a hee-ha about it if Melvin and Maria, no, Melvin, Maria, Melvin and Monique weren't such bullies. I'm just gonna do a little bit of this. I'm not really good at my brows, y'all. I've never been good at my brows. So it is what it is. Y'all, I wanted to start doing some story times, but my, those videos get so little views. And when I mean my story time, I used to tell, I would do app-lib, is that how you say it? Off the dome stories. And none of them really got over 200 views. Like 150 views or so. Cause I have so many stories in my head. I really do. All right, y'all. I had to delete some storage off my phone. That's scary because this is the only means right now. I have not means way to record videos. All right, you guys. So now I'm going to take down my hair. Now I set my hair with the Cantu whipping mousse. I use a little bit of Ecosala gel. Hear me out, hear me out. I wanted to do the Bantu knot. I really did. But with Bantu knots, you have to set those bad boys in early or it's just a fail, even with these. But I set these at six o'clock in the morning. So I'm hoping that they give me some. Yeah, this is not going to be that great. And I need to be mindful because my hair is blown, isn't a blown out state. And so it may not be what I'm looking for. But hey, I will more than likely unravel, separate once and let it hang. Because anything extra, I'm looking at the time. I may just do this. So look at that. Nothing girl. If this side looks like this, I can only imagine what the other side is going to look like.  Hey, you guys.  You're riding me that. I can't go near no open flame, that's for sure. But this is it, you guys. This is a, I don't know what you call this. It's a hairstyle using the Kintu. I'm blowing that hair. And I have so much hair that I can hide the imperfections. Girl, why? Why would you want to hide that anyway? So this is what this side looks like. I'll show y'all what the back looks like. I'm gonna put on some cute clothes and some earrings and bring it all together, okay? This is what the back looks like. What, how does it look like y'all? Do I have any holes in the open spaces? I probably do. All right y'all, I'm gonna put on some. This is what it is, okay?  I should probably put on some earrings that you can see up underneath all of this. But I got these dragonfly earrings from Sheen a while back. And that's what I'm gonna wear. These are so cute. Girl, can you put them on? Aren't these cute y'all? Yeah, that adds a little bit of razzle dance. Make sure I got my outfit real quick. I should have put an iron to put this. I don't have an iron to put this in the thing. It's a little wrinkly. These are these boots I got from Amp. No, from Fry's, girl, Fry's, $30 on sale, 50% off. I'm gonna have a jacket over this. And this is my purse, it's boring. But it is what it is. This is my makeup, just simple. Got a little blue underneath and that's it y'all. That's it.


Okay, Q slides. Here we go. Good morning everybody. Morning. Hello. This is Jane here. This is Chris here and welcome to the 37th webinar, which has undergone a slight rebrand this week. It has, yes. We've done a lot of time deciding on the layout and the fonts. We had to have an awful lot of branding and marketing meetings, didn't we, to get to this radical. So what we've done here, we wanted to make it clear that we're running these webinars under the auspices of the Copyright and Online Learning Special Interest Group. So the Alt Special Interest Group and here's the marvellous logo that Greg Walters has created that went through a number of workshops and focus groups that gave us something that we all thought was suitably cool. Largely to decide on the size and the position of the glasses. It took us a while, but here we are. Now we've also done a bit of renaming of it because we felt that we wanted to move away from talking about being at a time of crisis. I think we can all agree that it is a time of uncertainty. Can I say the crisis is far from over? Yes, but I think we're noting that we're in a different situation at this point in this year than we were a year ago when we were kind of right in the thick of things. But we still get a sense that people are finding the webinars useful and we are actually planning on putting out a survey and finding out what people find useful. And what their experiences have been of joining the webinars. So look out for that quite shortly. That's something that's being done as part of the cool SIG and that Irene who's with us today is going to be working on. So welcome everybody to this one. And we're very much looking forward to having. I think it's going to be a great session today, isn't it? Absolutely, Chris. Yes. So should we have a look at what we've got lined up on the agenda? Let's do that. We've got our usual copyright news, plenty of news this week because we always start off when we're putting this together thinking we've got one or two things. And there's lots of news, isn't there? Some publications, some recordings from previous events. We've got a new survey out, a couple of new surveys. And yeah. And as ever, if anybody does have any other bits and bobs that we've forgotten if they want to stick a link or something in the chat, that would be fantastic. We can share those. And then we've got a really great presentation from not just to raise the beginning who is the co-chair of the open education, especially interest group. We also have to raise an Ella from that group. So this, we'll talk about more about this in a moment, but clearly there's a very strong link between copyright, understanding copyright issues and open education more broadly. So we're really looking forward to discussing that and making those links. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we're really delighted that I think we have three members of the other sig with us. So it would be a good chance to talk a bit about some of the issues about open education and where that intersects and overlaps with copyright and understanding copyright. Because I think it's an important part. It's not the only part of open education, but it is quite an important part. So before we get started, let's talk about what we've been up to this week. Jane, you've been spending a lot of time in your garden. Yeah, well, we both actually ended up having a bit of time off, didn't we? So this is, I thought, work in progress, but this is my beautiful beach garden that's kind of inspired by the beach that's around here in Kent, sea salt, which the bull kind of way. So and the tide in my garden has got a particular only comes in so far. So yeah, so I thought I'd show you what I've been up to and spend a nice time dodging rain showers in my garden on Wednesday. Yeah, the summer will be here eventually, I'm sure. And then I've been continuing to obsess about bread. So this is the most recent success I had, but getting a relatively open crumb and a relatively good oven spring. But I did spend, I think I was up until half past midnight on Tuesday watching YouTube videos of people making sourdough bread. So I think it is an obsession. It is an obsession. But there is a perfectly decent bakery that you can just buy it for three pounds. That's not the point. Okay. So there we are. That's that's that's what we've been up to. Just a reminder that we do have the archive of all the previous webinars and that Christine is now putting these on YouTube as well. So it should be an easier way to get access to those and we'll be updating that page to give the links to the latest versions of the recordings. Are you going to put that one in the chat or am I doing that? You can do that. I'll be right here. Something right here. Something right here. Something right here. Okay. So first up, this is actually a magazine that came out actually on the 19th of April. We did put a blog post up about it. It's called the creative academic magazine. There's quite a lot about creativity and higher education. But I just thought we hadn't actually featured this in copyright news and people might be interested. I think we put some of the cartoon versions of us in one of the previous webinars. But there is an article about how we shifted copyright the card game online in that magazine. So Chris, pop the link in and we also made a kind of little mini cartoon describing how we did it. But there is actually some text so you can read if you're interested in our experiences of shifting the card game sessions online. That's the place to go. And there's loads of really, really, really interesting articles in there. One of my colleagues, Joe Payton at City University co-edited this edition. So it's really worth having a look for all sorts of different approaches to creative teaching in different disciplines. Yes. So as Claire says, it looks like something out of an 80s Jackie magazine. It does a bit, doesn't it? Yeah. We were going for that look, Claire. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We took a few of the pictures out. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're carrying on with that. We'll maybe come back to it at some point. So. Okay. Next up. I think this is me as well, isn't it? The next one. Yeah. So the, the OER by domains conference, which was at the end of April. This, the recordings are available now in a kind of fabulous interactive online guide for anyone who didn't know about the conference. We presented at this conference on the relationship between copyright literacy and open practices. And they had this really great way of laying out the program to make it look a bit like a sort of retro TV guide. It's really good actually for participants to be able to navigate between sessions. And they've got loads of recordings up. So a couple of things, I guess, other than our session, which actually wasn't recorded because it was a sort of a live chat session that we did on a platform called Discord. But what I would really recommend is that you watch some of the keynotes and the keynote that Rajiv Janjiani. I think that's how you say his name. He's a Canadian open education expert and that is absolutely fantastic keynote. So some, some, yeah, really good recordings there and loads of stuff to explore. I have to say that his keynote was, it was the most like being in a room. People just go, wow, this is incredible that I've experienced since we all went online. So it's definitely worth catching up with. And it will be very, very relevant to what we're talking about today. Yeah, definitely. So the next thing is for those of you who joined us last time round, we had an update from colleagues in Australia. And this is recordings from an event they put on in that previous week from the Australian Digital Alliance Virtual Copyright Forum. So there's some excellent presentations, recordings of presentations in there, including from Dr. Emily Hudson, a member of this parish who I think is with us today. Yes, I can see you on the list. Definitely worth checking out if you want to get into some of the detail of what's happening happening in Australia and hearing from some others as well. So just going back, I think the recordings from the OER by domains are on that site. I think if you go into the guide, then you should be able to get access to the YouTube recordings of those. If not, yes, yes. And on Alps YouTube channel, so you should be able to find all of those things. They definitely take an open approach to that content of this reason. Okay, so that's the Australian stuff. We also wanted to highlight this Spark Europe Open Education Survey, which is looking at libraries and higher education institutions and what their practices and policies are around open education. So again, very relevant to the theme of today's and this is an annual survey as well, isn't it? I think it's something where Spark have done this. They've now got a European network of open education librarians that was created. I think sometime last year, but they're running this survey to look at sort of open education practices and how they've been supported. And it is sort of building on a lot of the work that UNESCO did in this area as well a few years ago. So yeah, next survey. So this survey is from Communia and they are a sort of, well, they came out of a European project, but they're a sort of advocacy organization for copyright reform and sort of other freedoms related to the internet. Now, just to say that this survey and I have clarified this with them because I tweeted a bit about it. They are looking for school teachers to fill this in. So we know lots of you listening are not school teachers, but they are struggling a bit to get teachers in the UK to fill it in. They've been running the survey in about eight different countries around Europe and they would really like more evidence from UK teachers. So if you do have any ways of being able to reach teachers, then can we encourage you to think about how you might share it and just some feedback. I mean, I know I had some from people saying, you know, that the teachers are obviously really, really stressed at the moment, but I did check and they don't want librarians to fill this in. It is a survey where they want to get the experiences of teachers, but we just thought maybe our network might be able to help. So that's the community survey. So the final item, last but not least on copyright news this week is that the call for contributions. Closes on Monday. We need a theme tune. We need a theme tune. All right, well, we'll get working on the theme tune. You've got till the 25th of June. Otherwise, you know, I actually dreamt of song last night and I woke up and it was terrible because of course in the dream, it's brilliant. You're not Paul McCartney, you're just not. Well, I'm not Paul McCartney. Anyway, that is the point. The point is that ice pops is shaping up to be excellent. We have had contributions. There is space for more contributions. And I think we would be, yeah, we're really looking forward to still keeping the ice pops flame alive if that's not mixing two metaphors too much. With this event at the end of June. So don't melt that. Don't leave it too close to a nice and icy. Absolutely. Don't like that. Like we're not going to get a moth involved in the way. No. Right. I think I think is this is where we draw a line under under this particular piece of verbal guy. Ridiculousness and just say, please, if we can put the link in the chat, please consider putting something in. If you have a creative approach to copyright literacy or copyright education. Yes. Excellent. Okay. That was copyright news. Without further ado, it's my great pleasure to introduce our speaker for today. I think we say we have got to raise a McKinnon who's the co-chair of the old open education special interest group but we also have to raise bird and I think we have Ella Mitchell as well, who are both members of the special interest group as well. We're going to hand it to them. I know they do have some slides at one point, but I think I'm handing over to you to raise her to start with. And I think you're going to share your screen and chat to us. So, but really pleased you can join us and the floor is yours. Thank you. Thanks so much. And it's great to be with you all and to see a very impressive long list of participants. So big welcome and thank you for having us popping into your community. But hopefully you're already part of our community as well, the wider open education community. So I'm just going to share my screen and give you a little bit of a tour and a little bit to see you and show you. And this is something you can quite easily do by picking. There we go. Hopefully my sheet, my screen is now shared. Yeah. Are you seeing my screen? I'm seeing a white. I'm just saying. Sorry. Sorry. Click one button. Looks like there we go. There we go. That's it. Great. So using a search engine of your choice, if you put open edsig and possibly the letters ALT into a search engine, you will find us. Yeah. So we have a community space online, which is supported by the Association for Learning Technology, who kindly supply and provide the technology for this particular SIG. You've said co-chair. We've got quite a flat structure, I have to say, within our open edsig community. I take the role of chair at the moment because other people are not available. We just sort of share between ourselves the jobs that have to be done. And I'm really happy as well that you're going to hear from two other committee members. We actually have a very small committee of people. And they're all people in slightly different roles, but the people who are interested in and wish to support or actively advocate and support within their institutions, open education. The mission of the SIG really is to support, develop, sustain and influence policy in open education. So what we try to do as a SIG is to bring together research and practice and foster dialogue between organizations and individuals who are engaged in education. The aim really is to provide a safe space for discussion. And really we try and do that through regular webinars where we focus on a particular aspect of open education. So just to give you a quick insight in some of the things we've done recently, obviously we do quite a lot of the connections to the open education or the OER conferences, the series of conferences that OLD have supported for some years now. So we're very much involved in helping to support and deliver those conferences. So the recent OER by Domain's 21 conference, you see many of our community involved in that. Open badges, open data, all of these communities open source. You can see as well, Rick Bordings here, links to the blog post here. So as you wander through this site, you will be able to find very quickly the various aspects of dialogues and discussions that we've had over the years. We're also very keen to support and recognize networks which are engaged in open practice. So our own contribution to this year's OER conference was in the form of a discussion around the work of bring your own device for learning, the BYOD for L community and the work that they've done and to broaden that conversation out to where should they go next and how should they implement it. We had a really lively discussion there that was very helpful. We're a very friendly community. We are literally open. You don't have to be a member of OLD to participate. And if we go to the home page here, you can see the various spaces that we have and the forums and the blog posts that we do. And we do now have our own, let's just give you a link to this in the chat as well. We do of course have our own Twitter channel. But we're very much needing additional input within our SIG. So if this is an area that actively is of interest to you, we're certainly looking for new members of our committees. You can see our current committee posts here, a little bit of information about them. And we're currently in the process as well of creating a flip grid with some personal comments from members to enable you to get to know them better. Cats are also welcome. Let me just move my cat out of the way so I can see my screen. Blog posts tend to be on sort of community issues. So focus on particular aspects of open and that includes FEMED tech and accessibility and some of the bigger barriers that people experience to education and learning. There's a recent one there, a discussion around open badges as well. But we always welcome people who wish to post to our wider community and get conversations started. So do engage with our GIST mail list if you wish to do that and we can make that happen. I know as well we've got lots of people here who are experts in particular aspects of open education or perhaps your main focus is on OERs for example. Well do take a look and check our past webinars because you'll see there that we've had conversations recently around open COVID for ED and how we can help people find their open voice if you like. Because we know open practice can be contextual, it's very personal, it's not necessarily a straight line. If you champion open education you don't necessarily make everything you do open. So we have those sorts of discussions around the nuances of open practice and you'll find these recorded. And you'll also find them on the old channel under the open education play list. So discussions here around values, we had that discussion back in 2017 where we had Martin Dujiema amongst others talking to us around what is behind Moodle for example and what values they hold. And hard discussions around the role of educational resources in inclusive practice. What we do is aim to provide as I say a safe space for these sorts of discussions. And within that safe space of course that means that at some come the winter conference or Christmas time we generally tend to have a sort of online webinar where we just get together and do daft things together just to recover from the day job. So I'm going to jump back out now because I know Teres has some slides to share so I'll stop my sharing. Please feel free to put your questions in the chat and I will do my best to respond to them. But please be reassured that you know the community of open education which covers a broad range of topics is very much a friendly community. So please welcome your queries and contributions, whatever your role, whether you're a practitioner or a librarian, retired like me, whatever role you find yourselves in, we are open to discussion. And that's what we're here for. I'm going to pass the mic over to Teres now. Thanks so much Teresa. It's, it's so nice to be reminded of all the cool stuff that's been going on. And it's great to meet this SIG. This is my first time joining one of these webinars so thanks so much. So I'm the educational designer for Lester Medical School and part of open education is learning that is co-created by students. And that's, you know, that has its kind of fraught aspects. And so fraught aspects of working together with students but also copyright related issues. So in a way I'm just sort of sharing some of the issues that I've discovered. And not just because of COVID but it kind of got heightened with COVID and so I'd, I hope this gets some conversation going and I would like to get some ideas from you guys from this community about, you know, how we could possibly handle some of this going forward. So I'm just going to share about the, okay. So I look after the medical students and this medical students are insanely busy as well as being insanely competitive and insanely ambitious and all these things.  And so a few years ago I met with a student, he was in year two, and he couldn't find a, an anatomy text that he liked. He wanted it to be online and hyperlinked. So because he couldn't find one he started making his own. And it's called teach me anatomy. So he, he started making it online with WordPress, and it just mushroomed into this well used online resource. Because he was able to kind of get some traction in the United States. He was able to start advertising to American doctors who pay a lot of money to see adverts about pharmaceuticals. And that was how he got an income from this. So he could roll the money back into the project. And then he, you know, he was able to do anatomy, surgery, physiology, OB, gyny, pediatrics. And it became so good, and it's so international, internationally vetted that it is good enough to use as an anatomy text. And we now use it as our anatomy text. Okay. Now, it was OER 15, I think, that I brought along this chappy to the OER conference and we presented together on this project. And since then he's he's a doctor in Cambridge, he's going on with his life, but he's still looking after the project. He's got lots of people looking after it. And he learned from OER to, you know, make sure that any images that he uses are allowed to be used. He's, you know, he knows about Creative Commons, etc. And he's learned how to, you know, kind of draw his own out of print. Grey's Anatomy is where everything started with this with this textbook. Well, it's not exactly an open, it's not an OER because it's openish, I would say, because it used to be funded by adverts. Now he has decided to charge for it if you're not in Lester. So that's how he does it. So he puts the fancy stuff where you, you know, you have like a premium model, you know, and in a way I'm just sharing that this is how an ambitious student actually helps other students really with this material. But, you know, it does cost money and how do you keep it going? And so this is how he's doing it. So, you know, to colleagues in Lester, it's free, but to other people to get the really fancy stuff, he'll charge a little bit of money. So that's just showing you, it's, you know, I consider it kind of open, openish, but it's not exactly open. Now, some of our other students, so here's another student, he just made a Wix website and he's sharing out all of his notes to other students and he's so ambitious, he's got his own YouTube channel already, it's going strong. And he shared out everything to help the students to pass the exams and right now it's exam time. So students are all on YouTube and on his website and they're just saying thank you so much, thank you. And, you know, there's a part of me that I think it's great, but I start to get a little bit nervous. And now, and here's another story which I'm going to tell you but I'm not going to, I've got no slide for this. Some of additional students have now kind of gotten this bug of creating platforms. So we've got another student who has created an online platform that shares out all of the students notes that they've written kind of digested of the Lester curriculum, and they're sharing it out to the world. And he's, he's kind of, it's a little money spinner for him in some way, I don't know how. And there's a, so our staff, and we're all a little bit struggling with this because we had to have a discussion with the student that, okay, there is such a thing as intellectual property. And the more you share about the course, you know, our staff are being paid to write that course it's their intellectual property. It also belongs to the university, and it's not exactly kosher to be sharing it out to the entire world. And so we kind of had to have to keep going back and forth about that. So that's, and there's there's another case of of a student who's created a platform which sort of shares out all the different student societies in medicine. But now it's sort of like a gateway a gatekeep, his site is sort of like the gatekeeper site. And so, people aren't quite sure if they're happy about that I mean that there's created functionality, but it's a little bit of control that's being imposed so these are some. Yeah, I see some comments, nuance discussions to be had about this so we're basically experience it's great to create things with students students, you know, not only are they their peers. They know what it's like to learn this stuff. Let me show you something that's been created by one of our students so we're using this right now. This is a little module in top hats. We're using this for pre clinical and I don't know if you could see it it's sorry it's not that great but you can see there's it's explaining how to do a cardiovascular exams you've got the video. You've got the checklist, and then you've got some questions. And because this is done in top hats. You know you can ask me about that if you're interested in that software. The students can answer the questions and it's collected in a portal. How they did on these quizzes how they how they answered. And yes we've had higher year students create these for the lower year students students are they know how it feels to not understand the topic they use. They use language that each other can understand they they have the energy they sometimes make the videos look like tick tock so it's more more kind of more fun. So it's great to work with students to create materials but you do have these issues that arise so you know students kind of. They're so excited and ambitious they don't understand about intellectual property or copyright you have to talk to them about it. Also they might not be correct correct students, you know have to staff would need to check this stuff over. But if it's initiated by the students the staff sort of start to resent it because you know we've got enough to do than to help you with your new app. So, but it's great for the students to do this because they're teaching and creating. So, you know, nobody wants to shut them down because they really are learning from this. So, so that's actually that's my situation. And I wonder if anyone else has come across these sorts of things, or if anybody has. You know, in the end I would like to kind of come up with a bit of a framework for working together with students in an open way. I just wonder if there's any suggestions out there if anybody else has considered these kinds of issues to raise. I definitely have had experiences I mean we're looking at this at Kent and I think this is something it would be useful to come back to the end if we've got some time for a sort of broader discussion of all the issues. But I think that that thing that you've pointed out here between different perceptions of what is acceptable behavior and what isn't and that whole conceptualization of intellectual property. It's quite different from a student from an academic from from a university or education manager's perspective so I think it will be really yes really good to get other people's experiences on that. But yeah, but that really makes sense to me so thank you very much. Were you going to hand over to Ella was she going to say something or did we want to throw it over to discussion at this stage. I am happy to hand over to Ella. I was I was I'm a little bit unclear if we were going next but but that's it for me on this so thanks thanks guys. No to raise I think I think you know it's really that you picked this up at the end as well. Because I think it relates directly to some of the issues we've been discussing on the list copy seeker mailing list as well about you know student created content and the kind of ethics of you know obviously encouraging students to be creative and to do this. But some of the concerns there might be when students are as you say sort of taking resources created by their teacher and then potentially putting them on other platforms where you know it's an it's it's it's it's copyright infringement and it's it's also kind of you know usually the rules and regs that they signed up to as a student. You know which says that these are teaching materials for your own private non commercial research not not for you to pop on a platform and try and make some money out of but you know it's kind of how we get that balance right and explain that to students about what is open and what is kind of more closed and and I think some of this so often comes from students just not understanding copyright on on a lot of levels. They do always rewrite it. So it's never a simple cut and paste as far as I know. Yeah. And yet there is intellectual property in even in the outline of things and you know how the curriculum is laid out and you know so it's there's a nuance there so. And I would say that it's a nuance where intellectual property policies at universities don't always help. They don't help by actually making it clear. And I think there's an awful lot of the reason for that is because there's so much focus on outputs from research that can be commercialized. That's why really universities were incentivized to get on top of intellectual property and have positions on it. So that's clearly a tension here with open education because it's not necessarily on the radar at most educational institutions. That's a thing that needs to be thought about holistically in conjunction with all those other issues. And from my perspective when these kinds of issues get raised a student is doing something and they're sharing it on the Internet. It's sort of well is have they broken the rules. This is a compliance issue rather than a OK. Let's think more holistically about how how we want to support openness in some contexts and not in others and and involving involving all those students and the staff and others in a conversation about what what we want. Practice to look like and and policy the supporting practice at this point. Yeah it's great to see Leo's here actually in a collection of participants and he has some really great insights into this sort of area this policy area which where it's always tricky. But what I what I would point to and this is something that comes up a time and time again in the open education community is that we are encouraged to put people in boxes. We're encouraged to put students in a box and say students must do X and must not do why. And in fact those students are with you maybe for three four or five years. They're going to go on being learners we hope having got a passion for learning within their API. And they need to understand how to operate more broadly and increasingly they're doing that digitally. So we need to be part of that education process not just for students actually for staff as well who also find this very thorny. But things like the practice of using Creative Commons licensing and understanding how it works that that's built upon copyright and an understanding of copyright. So there are lots of things we could be doing already if you're aware of the Creative Commons certificates. They're available the content is downloadable you can put them on your moodle you can make self access courses already. So I think there are lots of things we could be doing already to actually help foster that dialogue and make sure that people feel valued. You know, even such things as using Creative Commons licenses on your practitioner materials. It's absolutely clear what can be used and in what way those resources can be used. So yes please please do get in touch and be part of that conversation that we're having. It's not a matter of open versus closed. It's very much a continuum. And we're getting great work here from Catherine Cronin and many others. But certainly in Ireland we're seeing some leading thinkers on open practice and how we can better understand it. Yes, if I could come in here. Yeah, just there's a couple of questions. I think Emily Hudson's been asking about getting students involved in creating content for her course. I don't know Emily if you want to speak or if you just want a response to the question. I've popped something in the chat about the RAISE network, which is a student engagement network. It's kind of crossing into a slightly different you kind of, you know, you've got areas about teaching students about copyright and plagiarism and all those kinds of issues which many librarians are involved in. But there is a wider network of projects which were very much about a student led curriculum and getting students involved in the creation of materials. I went to the RAISE conference a couple of years ago when I worked on a student engagement project. So that's definitely something to look at. But your question specifically is a concern about students plagiarising content from materials such as things like lecture transcripts and, you know, whether everything then has to go through, turn it in and stuff like that. I don't know if anybody wants to pick up to raise to raise Ella, if anyone wants to say anything about that. I mean, obviously, it's a kind of key area. Librarians teach a lot about plagiarism. I would certainly deal with that. Sorry, this is Theresa, by the way, I would certainly deal with that. It's very much an assessment design issue that, you know, you can, you know, you can design assessments that are not easily plagiarised. And there needs to be, there's not enough assessment literacy generally within our staff populations. And we need to have those discussions, you know, what makes a good design, what makes a good assessment. Emily, you've got your hand up. Do you want to respond to that? Yeah. Yes. Hope you can hear me now. We can. Yes. I think that the thing for us is that it's not that the entire answer is plagiarised. But if you're talking about a law assessment where students are required to describe what was said in the cases as part of their assessment, they end up pastishing descriptions from here and there and everywhere. So it's actually, I'd be very keen to hear more about assessment designs that don't have that problem. Because I actually, I have a feeling there just comes a point at which if you're getting students, as I said, to engage with, in our instance, legal materials, there is just so much scope for them to plagiarise things. And as I said, it's not entire huge chunks of text. It's bits and pieces being drawn together from everywhere. And we're doing a lot to try and train students in good academic practice and writing and so on and so forth. But I've got lots of colleagues who want to be back in exam rooms with students doing invigilated exams, because we're just really, like, we can't find a good answer to this at the moment. I certainly don't. I don't think the college wants to go through down the route of, like, a proctoring and having students spied on through their webcam. So it was just something which we are really concerned about in relation to academic integrity. It's also a huge issue. The issue which draws on this aspect of student-created materials, but sort of also some of the materials we're creating as well. So it's a broader issue. I think one of the things that we certainly had to do was to look at an assessment criteria. So because obviously you haven't got equivalent in a way of an open book exam, so what are you giving credit for? Are you looking for citations? Are you looking for analysis? You know, it really comes down to the practitioners themselves, analyzing what they're assessing and how they're assessing. And in many cases, certainly in languages, it meant throwing out our usual assessment criteria up to a point and actually redesigning. And I appreciate that's not something anybody wants to do at a point when, you know, we're in COVID and we're trying to deal with so many other things. But collectively, across professional organizations, it is something that can happen. You know, we do tend to be stuck in our silos, so we're trying to find answers within our organization or within our discipline. And sometimes we need to look across disciplines, which is really what the open-ed sig is all about. Connecting those discussions in different places internationally and also in terms of different institutions. And I think just to come in on this, I think a key area where we've been talking about this, that there is perhaps a lack of nuance and understanding is the intellectual property and is the copyright side of things. I pick up on what we've got on screen from Therese's slide here about stealing intellectual property from the teacher. I mean, I would take a fairly pedantic thing about the stealing versus infringing of intellectual property because intellectual property isn't actual real property that you could steal. But it's something that people, that's what they talk about. And I think when we're talking about copyright, for me copyright is a tool that can be used to do certain things in certain contexts. And if we see plagiarism and cheating on exams or contract cheating as a copyright issue, we miss the point really because it's an important factor in a broader discussion about what are acceptable behaviors. And I think that's where the challenge comes because you need lots of different people with different levels of expertise and to come together to work out how we deal with these and how we avoid tying ourselves in knots about what, you know, particular licenses or what copyright laws or who owns what, that's important to work out as a fundamental thing. But if we get stuck and bogged down in that, we're moving away from a broader discussion about how we want to, how learning and teaching to take place, how we want to encourage students to think creatively and work creatively. I think that's the challenge, really, that the moment my experience is we've raised this issue, it's come up in relation to contract cheating and course hero and stew docu and those sites. And I'm trying to reframe this within Kent as a let's think about openness. Let's think about those questions more broadly rather than there's a problem, people are breaking the rules, and let's find a way to clamp down on it because there's so much nuance in there. So I guess the question I wanted to come back to to members of the Theresa to raise and another and anyone else really who's involved in in openness here is, have you got experiences of bringing that understanding what we would deter we call copyright literacy about ethical, you know, knowledge is knowledge skills and behaviors, bringing it back into that openness space and talking about how it fits in with policy and how it fits in with practice. These kind of situations that I've described have led to some really, really good discussions amongst staff and students together. So for that, I am really thankful. It's given me a chance to give some quick teaching about creative commons, you know, in imaging and stuff like that. So yeah, it has opened the door to some good. It's just that as time goes on, new incarnations of these issues develop and we kind of it basically just forces us to keep keep discussing it, which I think is a good thing. Thanks, thanks for that. And I think this is where it may be that, you know, obviously we're having this discussion now. But we might be able as as the the call sig to be able to bring some of that expertise around copyright and looking at how we are looking in our institutions of that question to try to to move things forward. So, but I think I think actually Chris, this is kind of also why we we we've been writing, haven't we, about copyright literacy and how it relates to other literacies, whether you want to call it information digital academic literacy. And I think this is actually a really clear area where it is overlapping massively with questions about ethics and how you communicate and share and kind of what it means within a discipline to use evidence from other sources and kind of explaining that to students. Because I think, you know, in law, they will need to use case law as evidence as, you know, and I can see why the temptation might be to just be, you know, they're looking for the model answer to kind of follow where's the case law just put that in. And if that's not what, you know, you want lawyers to do in the future, if you do want them to do something more than that, then you have to think about designing an assessment that perhaps, you know, involves, I don't know, an element of their own reflections and things where, you know, you can't plagiarize. I mean, none of the assessments that are on my modules really would be able to be plagiarized because of the kind of the requirement for anyone who's doing any of my assessments to include that level of what does this mean for me and my practice and that element of reflection. So it would be, you know, I don't want a theoretical essay, because I want people to be reflective practitioners. I'm kind of going off on one of it. I think it does. It links to just seeing Leo's comment about how and following on from what Therese said is that this needs to be discussed and negotiated all of these questions discussed and negotiated rather than thinking they're going to be solved. And that actually makes me reflect on the conversation that I had with colleagues or with a colleague a couple of weeks back and I was talking about one of the tricky copyright questions that we as a community deal with all the time. And I was saying, and I use, I think I use the word resolution. Now, how can we resolve this? And the thing is, well, you can't.  You don't resolve life. The only point which you resolve it is the point that it's over. And I think it's just keeping all of those points together and keeping the right people in touch with each other and trying to frame the conversation in the right way because otherwise try to lock down something and the world is changing all the time. Isn't it? I love that point, Chris. You can't resolve life. The only point at which life gets resolved is when there is no life left and surely that's not what we want. Can I ask a question actually, Theresa? Just, I'd really like to sort of jump in here about involvement in your community because in the library community, there's a huge open access community. People who work in this area of kind of helping and supporting researchers, of looking after this kind of funding that's available through APCs and things like that and advising about what research funding councils want. And I just wondering, you know, it always feels to me like that the open education community really would benefit from having more of these people involved. And does that, you know, is that something, you know, that you think you mentioned open data that seems and the open textbook issue. Those seem like really important issues where we really do need to get library community engaged much more in your SIG as well. Rather than just having those conversations about it more from that kind of, you know, how do we support researchers to understand, you know, the kind of open access for publishing. I'm going to come back on pronouns. There is no my community. There is no, this is not a community that I am in charge of. This is just I am one of many people who are active in the open education community and all of those people who are active in terms of librarians or people involved in OER are of course part of our community. We wouldn't have it any other way. So there are no barriers. It is totally open. And if we need discussions, which clearly we do perhaps around assessment, particularly as we come out of COVID, you know, our focus has been very much on actually supporting people mentally through the whole COVID process and showing just how the inequalities that have been often hidden within our societies have become very obvious and very big during COVID. And we've been focusing on that, hence the open COVID for Ed Pledge. But, you know, as we come out of this phase, we need to have deeper discussions around things such as the ebook SOS movement. You couldn't have timed that better, Leo, because that reminds me of that whole discussion. And if you're already involved in it, we will host a webinar for those discussions. That's really what we're here for. So the committee really wants to provide those safe spaces for those discussions. And as Chris said, we won't resolve them, but we will facilitate the discussion and we will hopefully move things forward. And, you know, a lot of this is just a shared ongoing activity. You know, it's only when you meet those, and Therese has provided beautiful illustration of those practical issues. When we meet those thorny issues, we're then able to sort of open up for discussion if people feel safe to have those discussions. So that's very much what we're here for. And, you know, don't feel you have to join anything in particular. Just, you know, follow us on Twitter, join the conversation in the gisk. And as I say, as a very small committee, all we try to do is to catalyse those discussions. No, thank you. Thanks for that clarification as well. Because I totally didn't mean that yours was some sort, it was your community and it was a kind of separate thing. I didn't mean it like that. It kind of, yeah, it was my inarticulate Friday morning. No worries. No worries. Grace, talking to a linguist is the issue there. Sorry about that. I think what we've explored here is some really sort of fundamentally important points about, you know, clearly an overview of what your group is doing and the sorts of issues that you talk about. And we know that there are the links there between openness and copyright. And if I can get Jane to drop a link into Greg Walter's blog post, which was summing up from the OER session would be useful because there we talk about the fact that copyright and licensing is one part of the openness discussion. Maybe you could mute your mic as well while you type. Thank you. But I think what we've seen here is there's a very strong link in terms of intent, what we're trying to do with that with our relevant special interest groups. We're trying to get away from binary concepts, open versus closed. And similarly with copyright, we often have right versus wrong, and we have this issue with risk management being a key part of it. So I think this is a beginning of a beautiful relationship, I would say. So, and also to say this lays the ground for the next session that we have in our schedule, where we have the US team that are looking at codes of best practice and use of copyright material in open educational resources. But I just want to say thank you so much to Theresa, Therese and Ella, sorry, you couldn't get your mic to work, but thank you for introducing your work. I know it's a lot of interest to a lot of people on the call, and we'll definitely be looking at opportunities to see where we can feed into each other's work. Thank you. Thanks Chris and Jane for having us. It's been. I'll meet you all as well. And, you know, I just want to see that just mail OECIG lists of grow and Twitter followers grow so that we can really widen out these discussions and, you know, bring us the issues. You know, where are you having the problem so that we can sort of distill those and get get a relevant sort of leaders of discussion to together. Absolutely. And Theresa, just we'd really like to see you and if you could help advertise the session we're doing on the 11th of June. I think the codes of best practice, the work that's been done in the US around fair use. The one on open educational resources is a massively overlapping area of interest for both our groups. So, and I think after that session, it would be really good to pick up a conversation about where we go with this. In the UK, because they're very keen because it's about open educational resources, the team who developed it have already got a kind of Canadian slant on it. So how the code work under a fair deal in Canadian law. And we would like to do something about the UK as well. So I think we'd really like to pick that up with you if that's if that's something your groups interested in. Absolutely very, very, very happy to co promote and, yeah, to widen those discussions to one of the biggest issues I suppose really we have with with copyright is the fact that it is national, it's applied at a national level. And obviously these things may make differences to the practitioner. The work I did in this area was actually collaborating with someone in Australia is and it's, you know, it's interesting to get those different perspectives. And thanks Leo, the open ed sig list is the one that you're looking for. Yeah, that's another list, but I've just popped it in there because I saw Sally's message. So it's called the open ed sig so that I've just put the link to the just now list which I only signed up to myself for last week. But it was a good reminder, actually that we think we're kind of all joined up and we're talking to each other and actually I've immediately picked up on some really interesting discussions happening on your list. So, okay, it's 12 o'clock, but thank you for joining us. Chris, we've just got a couple of quick things, haven't we to run through. Yes, yes. Just to say that we are, we've talked about the next session on the 11th. We were looking for suggestions of future topics we know there's been discussions about what we do for the next academic year and clearly we we've had a lot of there's been a lot of focus on the CLA's license extension, which comes to an end at the end of July. So the CLA and their members do not plan to extend that that was the agreement that they reached. And CNAC have been talking to CLA about where where that leaves us. And I think this is if there would is there's interest in talking about that specifically or more broadly how we're looking ahead to 21 22 and getting together online resources resources as we move out of the pandemic I get the sense there is some interest in talking about that. Then, yeah, I think what we'll probably do is get ideas from people on copy seek on this to see what they want to talk about. But we're going to have a break for so it's going to be three weeks till the next webinar. So we don't have one on the 4th of June. So just just to kind of let you know our next one will be the 11th of June. We've also been talking to Creative Commons about an issue related to images and sort of the various. Yes, yes. And so that's another topic that we're hoping to organize a webinar probably in July about but we'll post on less list copy seek about that one. And we've also been talking to Emily about putting on another event or so. So that's we've got some ideas in the pipe. And also just to pick up on the fact that Emily you've put quite a chunky question. We didn't really get a chance to look at. I think it may be that this whole area of discussion we might want to return to not necessarily as a full webinar, but as part of the cross working between between the two groups. But there is lots in the pipeline, definitely more to come. Yeah. Anyway, we're going to leave people with one last thing because it's a really exciting thing coming up this weekend. Isn't there there's something date for your diary things. Yes, absolutely. I'm sure everyone was spending their Saturday night eagerly writing their contribution to the old sea annual conference. Yes, yes, yes. I think people thought you were going to say something else Chris on Saturday about Saturday night. But I've certainly got something trying to frantically finish hopefully by the end of today actually for the conference. But yeah, the old conference 7th of the 9th of September. And there we go. But Saturday night is of course Eurovision. Yeah, we had that. We did this last year, didn't we? We did. We did consider trying to do a short rendition for those of you that hung around at the end. Yeah, we were dancing. Yeah, yeah. And I'm going to put that skirt on that you could whip off. We might have to. I think ice pops. We would definitely use a musical loop in. Oh, we're doing karaoke in there. We are doing karaoke. Yeah. So there we go. We've stopped the recording now, I think, and we'll leave you all there.


Welcome to the Jenkins Platform Special Interest Group. It's the 30th of July. Remind everyone that we abide by the Jenkins Code of Conduct in our meetings. So it'd be nice to each other. So today's items that I've got, oops, open action items. Open action items here. Java 11 as default in all our images, pending Docker changes, and that's it. Aditya, is there anything that you would like to add to the agenda? No, no. Okay, all right. So first action item for me is that I'm going to open the Jenkins Enhancement Proposal today. This document has been out for review for an extended period. It's still got a lot of things that I need to add or I've got an open question from Tim Jacome. That's good. So that we can address there. Then we've got an additional JEP, which won't happen as today that's proposing Docker Operating System Support Pattern. And, but we've already got it started thanks to one of the users who started using the technique. We've also got Plugin Install Manager docs and the PR that's pending to replace install plugins.sh content with our Java program. Any questions on the action items? No. Okay, so then the next piece of the story is Java 11 as default in all of our images and that's the Jenkins Enhancement Proposal that is this thing right here. So this will be submitted later today as a pull request to the Jenkins Enhancement Proposal GitHub Repository and we'll start the review and discussion process. And let's see, any questions there? Yes, so let's just say that, okay, everyone gives a thumbs up and plus one token. Now we are going to have this. So what is the process and how will all the Jenkins images all start using JDK 11? So will it be like a new update is available and then everyone will download that update and use it? So how does the process basically, what is the flow of the whole thing? Very, very good. So the proposal is first we will, so the images that are changing is those images which do not include a JDK explicitly in their image tag. So for example, 2.301-alpine, if the new version, and now let's say we will release next week 305 and then 306, so this number should actually probably be 307. So 2.307, the previous week, 2.306 will deliver JDK8 inside the Docker image. Then when we deliver 2.307, we will deliver JDK11 inside the Docker image instead of JDK8. And the idea is that two to four weeks, two weeks before the LTS release, so mid-August, we will make the change in weekly. We'll watch it for two weeks and then we'll make the change just before LTS so that the LTS release August 25 has Java 11 in its base images. And this now I need to change from the 289 to 2.302, like that. Okay. So Aditya, did that answer your question? Is that we will transition, we will begin the transition in weeklies mid-August and we will then complete the transition end of August with the next long-term support release 2.301.2. Yes, yes, it does answer my question. This is what I was looking for. So I had a follow-up question. So from the user's point of view, it's just that it got a new update. So they do not worry about the rest of it. But there might be a case where some functionality might break, right? So if some software does not support JDK11, so how are those cases being changed? Exactly, you got it. That to a user, when they transition from 2.289.3 to 2.302.1, they will also implicitly transition from Java 8 to Java 11, running their controller. Now that may surprise them. That's why we're going to communicate it. We're going to blog about it. We're going to inform them because those changes, it's important that they know this is happening. And even with all of our communication, we still expect there will be people who will be dismayed or say, oh, I need Java 8 for this specific reason. And so one of the proposals here is that we will add image tags for Java 8. So that if a user says, oh, I cannot upgrade to Java 11, they will have a place that they could change their Docker file or change their Docker image they're using to instead use a different image. So they could use latest-JDK8 or LTS-JDK8. That's amazing. Yes, that answers my question. Okay. Thank you. Now there's a good question here from Tim Jacome. He asked, should we retire the CentOS images? And it's a valid one because CentOS 8 is no longer maintained in the way that it was maintained previously. CentOS 8 has become a very different distribution and updates are no longer arriving to CentOS 8 in the same way they did before. Therefore, it's becoming out of date. And as it becomes out of date, that's a risk to our users. So Tim's question about, should we retire those images is a very good question. And I'll be addressing that because I think he's right. We should acknowledge that we're going to retire it and we're going to switch to using a thing based on a Linux distribution called AlmaLinux, which is an open source or a community-inspired distribution based on the same concepts that CentOS used to use. Okay. Does that address your question? Yes, it does. Great. All right. Hi, Damian. Oh, is Damian here with us? Yes. Yes. Oh, very good. Damian, we're going to have you describe. That's excellent. We're just about to get to your topic. Okay. Sorry for being late. I mixed up my time zones. I took it was one hour later. My apologies. It's wonderful that you're here. Thank you very much. You couldn't have better timed it. All right. So I was just describing the Java 11 transition that we're going to be doing. And it's described in this draft Jenkins enhancement proposal that I'll be submitting today. So Damian, I'll rely on you and others as part of the review team to look at this thing next week and we'll have discussions about it. I'm sure Tim Jacome today has provided some good feedback. I've got some things that I need to tune in it before I submit it as a pull request. So it's an attempt to describe what we should do. And then we'll plan to implement it over the course of the next few weeks. Okay. All right. So that really covers it. So the next is pending Docker changes. So Damian, if you'd be willing to share with us what's happening in Docker changes and I'm going to just mute myself and type. Okay. So we did two main changes in the building process. The first one is regarding the build step. So we have a build process which is quite straightforward. If a contributor open a pull request on the Docker repository, Jenkins CI slash Docker, then there is a pipeline executed on CI.genkin.io which first built and then test all the image declination both Linux and Windows, all on Intel as for today. The build part was a shell script. It was iterating through a list of images and building them. And then the test part is using bats. So I will go back on that one and iterate over the same list and run the test harness on each one. That was before our changes. So the first step is most of the work on the build part has been done by team while I worked on the test part we split the, let's say the major person and we use each other knowledge for reviewing. So always two persons on the knowledge is shared and not only one person. And we had a bunch of review from Mark, from Alex Hull and from Olivier at least. So build part, what team did was using Docker Buildix extension, especially the new command which is still quite on the edge, the command Buildix bake. So first what is Buildix? Buildix is a plugin distributed on most of the recent Docker engine distribution on the city on both Linux, Windows and Mac OS. If you have an earlier version of Docker or if you don't see the Buildix enabled on the Docker info on your Docker engine, it means you need to manually install the plugin. And the plugin is a single binary to install on the client side. So there is no change on a remote Docker machine. You don't need to restart Docker. It's only a client side plugin. That plugin has underlined on the official Docker documentation is a new implementation on the way that Docker Build commands are implemented. Initially it featured a better cache implementation which mean faster cache and faster builds but it also provide additional new features that should solve some of the old problem that Docker had. So here we use Buildix not only for the improvement in performances that was just switching to Buildix without changing anything else was already 10% faster for us in the CI process. But we use Docker Buildix bake which will read the manifest file that can be written in G-Zone as a Docker Composier Mall or the choice we made with HCL the HCCorp DSL language used for Terraform and backer now. So you can find that the root of on the repository a new file named Docker Build, no, Docker-bake.hcl. Why did we chose HCL over G-Zone or YAML? G-Zone does not allow commands. So let's forget about G-Zone. And YAML has its own quirks and given the, let's say the heated discussion that can be over YAML, we decided to not go that way. Personally, I don't really care. YAML allows commands but HCL allows something really powerful variable injection without templating.  It's a monorepository that generates a collection of images. So by using HCL format, it's easier for us to inject a single tag and have integrated variable management inside a file. So what is the goal of that file? The goal of that file is to be a manifest a recipe that lists exhaustively all the images we expect to build on that repository on a single place which is Docker understandable. It only depends on Docker and Docker is the only actor that should be able to read that one. It allows us to specify all the build arguments that we usually have on the shell script. So Docker build allows to pass build arguments to the build that can be used then as variable inside the Docker files. It allows to specify the Docker file location. For instance, you have Docker file.windows for the Maven image or something. When you have a bunch of Docker file on different directories, you can have one on three that point directly. And finally, you can add multiple name for a given image, which means if you build the Docker file which is on the directory hate slash debian, then you can specify that the image build there will have different aliases. It will be Jenkins slash Jenkins column LTS GDK hates. And it will also be Jenkins slash Jenkins column debian dash LTS, et cetera. You can add as much aliases you want if you want to have different naming conventions, especially in our case where we have different dimensions, the operating system used as base OS, eventually the architecture, the GDK and the main line of Jenkins, weekly, LTS, latest, et cetera. So it allows us to put the naming matrix in an exhaustive and declarative way. So as we saw during the publish, we forgot to tag during the change. It was easy. It was one tag to add on a collection and that's all. And we just run the build again instead of a bunch of shell file with iterating over loops and another part of the list and iteration on the Jenkins file, et cetera. So the goal is to have something that is portable and repeatable. So team changed all the build process. We are still using some shell scripts, but the goal is to have as much information as possible on the Docker bake. And the rest is only calling the Docker build xbake command that will parse the file. And based on the entry parameter, we'll select either all the images or just as a group of images. The group are internal. We can do whatever group we want. It's only matter of adding a group inside a file or we can target only a specific image and filter out. So that's the main work. The good positive effect of using that is that it accelerated even more the builds because when you run Docker build xbake, Docker by default will try to parallelize every images. So whatever list of images you ask him to build, it will analysis and parse the Docker file, the multi-stage Docker file, see if there are images depending on each other and it will create a tree and then it will try to build in parallel. So while it's pulling an image, it can already run a run layer. So the efficiency of building with build xbake is really impressive. We're able to put down the build of all images on the same machine size from twice to five depending on the machine power. So five time faster on the best cases. So the two time faster was on our CI machines and the five time faster was on team and high machines. So team has a Mac M1 machine and they have a MacBook Pro high-end and on my Linux machine I was four time faster and on my windows it was free time. So every platform benefited. So that was a good first step. Next, the second part is related to the test. So we did first the build, we deploy the build and we did a full weekly release with that new build xbake. So the idea was one pull request we didn't want big bank changes, first one main major change, then one weekly release and then we can iterate. So after the first successful weekly release using build x, so we kept the same images, no more feature only changing the way we built, no functional changes. Then the next step was related to the test step. So the test step was almost 13 to 15 minute at least for each image. Even sometimes slower when the build was picking a machine that was already used with no cache or with low power depending on AWS or Azure supervisors. And we saw by reading the test different things. First, we were using an unmaintained version of bats shell framework. So we had to switch from the original project to the new maintained project. That's the initial author of bats say, okay, I give that to a community and they switch locations. So we updated bats and while updating bats we discovered that bats is now able to parallelize the test with a flag. You can parallelize per test file or per single test. So we said, oh, initially we wanted to at least run optimize the shell script. So that instead of iterating sequentially on each test we wanted to initially say, okay, let's run all the files in background and then the shell script should wait. But with that flag bats can do that for us. The only requirement was using new parallel. So we had to install this on all the build agents. That's the only requirement. And we have tuned the make file if you don't have that binary. It's just all the tests will be run sequentially on your machine. If you don't have parallel, it's automatically detected. Otherwise it will run two tests per virtual CPU on the Docker engine machine. So it's a kind of automatic and you can disable that with a variable if you see issues because maybe there are side effects that we don't code earlier. So if any contributor or CI maintainer say that, there is a variable to disable the parallel testing. So the consequence on the test is that almost all the tests started to fail because we had a lot of tests with duplicated logic or tests that depended on each other on a given file that was for reasons. This is how the test harness was designed initially a few years ago. So after a discussion with a few members, it looked like that in fact, there were no reason to keep the sequential because most of the time, the sequentiality come from a test was building a custom image. So it's like, okay, I have to test Genkin slash Genkin cell TS alpine that has just built with BuildX before. And then I have to ensure that I can build that image but it was already done. Then it was customizing and building a new image from that image with some specific test content and then running a container, eventually two. But each of these tests had the same pattern. So we said, okay, first we don't need to ensure that the test has to rebuild the image. What we did is that instead of having one machine where we build all the images and then another machine where we test and rebuild all the images, we shifted and I said, we have one machine for one platform. Let's say Genkins for alpine with GDK8. And on the same machine, Docker BuildX was only building alpine and then run in parallel all the test harness. So just stop building from scratch again during the test phase allowed us to gain two to three minutes per test. On 80% of the test. So we went to 30 minutes to six. And then by revamping the test and ensuring they were all independent from each other. So that was a bunch of shell script to do. And we cleaned up some tests that were making no sense. The sense that they were written, they were making sense when the hotel wrote them a few years ago but now they were duplicating logic or even testing nothing. So we removed these tests. That mean we had to remove 20% of the tests that were unused, false positive or not optimized. And then we cleaned up the rest. And so now the tests phase for a given image depending on the image is between one and two minutes and a half instead of the initial 15 minutes. So that was quite a huge improvement. If you disable the parallel testing it was, it run around six minutes. And finally an additional benefit that was quite an issue. And that was the reason why the test were not running parallel before. With shell script you were able to completely exhaust the resources in the machine if you throw a bunch of uncontrolled tasks that are quite heavy on CPU mainly then the CPU start to be over allocated. And we saw the consequences that some agent were cutting the connection to our Jenkins controller. And if you have a Mac Intel you know what happened it try to fly basically with the fan with bats and the parallel testing. It's able to control the allocation of the resources and to manage the pool of tests mainly based on the amount of CPU which mean you don't need to risk any resource exhaustion. Everything is managed with your kernel. And so there is no MacBook Pro or laptop train to run and no more disconnection of the agent. So stabilized pipelines. So yeah, with the combination of these two we had to revamp most of the make file. So there might be some side effects. We saw some contributors seeing issues that we tried to fix on the go. There might be still some. So if you want to contribute and see issues with make file don't hesitate to open an issue because we might have broken something. I'm not a machine. However, most of the heavy lifting on a make file now is how to retrieve the name of a given image from the Docker BuildXPake result and pass that image as a parameter to the test. So the test can reuse the correct image. That was the most complicated part that involves exporting the Docker BuildXPake configuration as G-zone on the studio and parsing that. But outside this, that was quite easy and we are really happy with what we learned and the results because the time for the Linux images went to build on test where at 20 to 25 minutes we are under four minutes now for the combination of both. So that's quite an improvement. Five times faster, let's say. Now the next step will be same for Windows. We're not sure about the strategy and any contributor help is welcome. Windows is building and testing sequentially for now. So we have to wait and find a way. We saw two roads that could be possible from here. The first one is naive optimization using PowerShell scripting. It's already a PowerShell iterating. So trying to parallelize where PowerShell is way more powerful than Shell in the ability to control parallel resources in background provide more features. So that could be a first step. But we need contributor at ease with PowerShell scripting. The second roads will be trying to run but on Windows because now Windows between Siegwin, Git Bash and the new WSL system. It should be able to use Docker Windows container built and tested from a Bash command line. So maybe we could directly benefit from the rest of the work. However, Docker Buildix is not ready to support Windows platform right now. So yeah, that's the state. We need to spend more time experimenting on that part. But there are some time that we could gain from here because now the Windows part is the slowest. That's all, don't know if you have question. What an amazing result. Thank you Damien. That is absolutely exceptional. So yeah, I am delighted with the results. One of the questions for me is, okay, this was for the controller. We've also got inbound agent, outbound agent and agent images. And I believe we've got Jenkins infra images. Do you have an insight there? Are we considering making the change on those or does it not make sense to make the change on the agent build process? Yes, for the Jenkins infra where we have a collection of images, we are going to apply that change. However, regarding the Jenkins inbound and outbound agents, we will have to discuss that with the community. Because Jenkins infra is something that we use for our own use case. So we can experiment and we have a bunch and we will have some the same, let's say a speed improvement for sure, given that we have a collection of images. In the case of inbound, outbound, I don't know. That has to be asked. Do we want to move all the images in the same repository because there are dependency between each other? The goal is between a change on the base image and when the change is released and deployed in a Docker hub and available to end users. What are the steps and how much time do we have? And here that need to be mapped and then see if we can optimize this. Okay, I hadn't considered that. So there is an attribute of that, that today's situation with three separate GitHub repositories, one for the base agent, one for inbound agent and one for outbound agent might be better suited by Docker build X bake in a single repository. I think that's what you're seeing. But then we've got to deal with the different tag, tagging patterns or naming patterns in each of those subsets. So there's an interesting, okay, thank you, great. That is amazing. Thank you very much, great summary. I'm likely to put a link to this recording into places and I assume that we'll eventually do a blog post sharing this because I think the results are already amazing. Thank you. I don't have any other questions. Anything else you'd like to share or highlight for us on results you've seen or what you see as next steps. So the next step is mainly handled by team Yakom right now. It will be regarding the building and providing other architecture for Jenkins, so IRM or PC, et cetera. That's right. And that actually, okay. So multi architecture. And that's really quite a cool story. So I've got to share that. I've got to show that. So on the Jenkins roadmap, we have had on the roadmap for an extended period that we would support Docker images for system 390 mainframe for PowerPC and for ARM. And thanks to this work on build X bake and further, we've got progress on that. Right. So Damien, why don't you share more what, what you're seeing there. So that's also a benefit of using Docker build X. So Docker build X by default is a standalone replacement to the default Docker build commands, which is you have a binary Docker, which is Docker client. And you have a Docker engine, which run on your local machine on Linux or inside the virtual machine on Docker desktop for Windows or macOS, which is a Linux or Windows machine. And sometimes you have a remote Docker engine. So Docker build is a way to build a Docker file, which is on your client side. It send the Docker file and the context of the Docker file on the remote machine Docker engine. And it's able to build the image. That was the Docker build goal with build X. First, the artifact output is not only a Docker image. It can be a target on your local file system, which means send Docker file to remote Docker engine, build the image and retrieve a target image instead of storing that on the remote Docker engine. That one is useful when you need to use air gap system or when you need to export the Docker image to the OCI standard compliance. So you will have an archive, which is OCI that can be loaded on any CRIO or any container engine somewhere else. So not only you have this kind of benefits, but also build X introduced the concept of a worker. A worker is a demon running on the Docker engine where you want to build or any container engine you want to use. And it allows you to build container without needing root access to the remote machine. It can run on remote machine with a different architecture. It can even build container inside a remote Kubernetes cluster because it's a demon. That means it spawned a Docker engine and then it goes. Excuse me, just a minute. Sorry, I'm back. So with the concept of a worker, that means that a local Docker client is able to send things on a bunch of remote build X workers, which can be a remote Kubernetes cluster. And so that means a single Docker build X command is able to send builds, requests to different machines. So one RM, one Intel, one PowerPC. So as soon as you have a collection of remote Docker build X demon, I'm not completely sure about the wording. The documentation is way more clearer than me. But the idea is that you have one Docker file, one Docker client, and you have a bunch of remote machine. Build X allows to manage that cluster. And so with that in account, Docker added a nice feature which is enabling KMU, the emulator. So build X is able to spawn on a local Docker engine, Docker Linux Mac Windows with an Intel machine or IRM machine. And it starts and enable KMU emulation, and it's able to run Docker engine with images for different architecture. That technology exists in two years on Docker desktop for Mac. It was featured on different Docker code, like, oh, you can run the Raspberry Pi Docker image on your Mac OS instead of a slow Raspberry Pi. So using that feature, Docker build X is able to spawn in five, six seconds with KMU, a worker which is able to build in parallel for all the supported architecture here. So what did team work? He only added the supported and expected architectures on the Docker bake file, saying, OK, we want for Jenkins, Debian, not only Intel, but also IRM, et cetera. So that was just an array to append. And we had to install KMU and ensure it's enabled on all the agents. And if you have both, so enabling KMU is quite easy. It's a Docker container to run with the privilege that will enable an instruction on the kernel, and then that's OK. And with the bake change and the KMU emulation, then we are able with a single Docker build X bake command to build in parallel a given image on different architecture at the same time on an Intel machine. We don't need a specific architecture machine. Just a minute. Sorry, it's the war here. Too much person at home, sorry. So with that in mind, sorry again. OK, sorry. So with KMU installed and the bake change, it allowed us to build successfully during one week on CI Jenkins.io, all these architecture images without requiring any specific architecture agent, which is quite a good step. So it's an emulator. So maybe one day we will find issues because we built an image with some binary built or whatever. But most of the time we only download binaries and packages for a given architecture and we rely on the upstream operating system, Debian packages, Alpine packages, and West packaging. We compile on our home, so we should not have an issue. So with that in mind now, the work is to be able to publish these images first as experimental. So translating our work from CI to trusted. So from the CI parts to where we publish officially and sign the images. So we had some hiccups on that second part. We discover why it's because depending on the cloud provider and the kind of hypervisor using the virtual machine we use to docker build, sometimes you only have to enable KMU one time when building the custom virtual machine templates. And then it will be enabled always. And then some other cloud provider or hypervisor, you need to re-enable KMU before each build. So we decided that the pipeline had to be updated to force updating KMU because it's important. So if you run the docker run, blah, blah, blah, privileged KMU enable in any image, you can run it one, 10 times. It will have the same result on the end. So we run it before the build and it's okay. So that was the last changes and fixes that are quite hot because it was this morning in Europe. So thanks for our team for all the effort and the heavy lifting here. That's really interesting to see the, our ability to go forward on that subject. So anyone interested on that part, don't hesitate to raise your hand, propose help or reach out on discourse. Same if you have any question. Thanks very much, Damien. That's excellent. I don't have any further questions, although I admit I am looking forward to having an arm image. I'm a little jazzed about system 390 and PowerPC just because they're so exotic to me. So thank you very much. That's great. Now I assume no plan for arm 32, for instance, that this is all 64 bit work. I don't know what were the decision. Yeah. Well, I guess, I guess that's a good point. We had long ago chosen, I guess it's a year or two ago chosen that officially the Jenkins project is actually only running on 64 bit JVM. So I'd answer my own question. Really, we don't support. Yes, it runs on 32 bit virtual machines, but fundamentally the project does not test windows 32 bit, for instance, and we certainly don't test any Linux 32 bit. And so no reason for us to make an exception here. It's all 64 bit all the time. Unless there is a real use case, like at large scale, but most of the IRM provider now provide 64 IRM architecture, especially in RM, I remember that 32 bits. There were a bunch of different variations. Raspberry Pis depending on the serial number were having different CPU architecture that was kind of nightmare. And since the Raspberry Pi three, which is now four year olds at least. Yeah, we have that one. I don't know for other amateur or professional platform, but most of the IRM provider are 64. So that makes sense. Great. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you. Anything else you wanted to share today? That's already a lot. Thanks very much. That covers all the topics we had for today. Any other topics we should bring to our agenda today. Given the amount of work I've added, I'm going to write a mail. I will still have. I'm not the maintainer of the image and I will want to volunteer to be part of the maintenance team, especially given the amount of code that changed there. So I suppose it's a request to the community that has to go through email and. Yeah, just, just send a, so I asked to become a volunteer, maintain the Docker images so you can find that was a while ago. I think that's a great example. I think it just sends to Jenkins developers. I will immediately plus one that. I am confident that Tim Jacob will give his immediate vote. Yes. And then you'll be granted permission. Thanks. All right. We'll end our meeting now then. Thanks everybody. Recording will be posted shortly. So within 24 hours. Thanks all. Have a great weekend. Thank you. Bye.