The Battle of Stalingrad is considered one of the most epic battles of World War II. Stalingrad is one of the largest land campaigns in human history, and when viewed through the lens of the U.S. Army's operational framework and doctrine on offense and defense, it provides rich opportunity for professional discourse at every level. At the strategic level, operations leading to, and including the fighting at Stalingrad, raise questions about whether the Germans identified and maintained the right objective. At the operational level, Stalingrad illustrates the challenges posed by the realities of a resource-constrained environment where requirements to supply shaping operations detracted from the decisive operation and how increasing lines of communication create sustainment challenges which impact operational reach and tempo. At the tactical level, Stalingrad demonstrates the extreme brutality of the urban environment during large-scale combat, the importance of decentralized execution and a premium on junior leader initiative, as well as rapid, small-unit innovation. Many predict future warfare will inevitably feature complex fighting in dense urban environments. If this is the case, the lessons learned from Stalingrad and current doctrine for urban combat provide warning, education, and guidance for those who order forces into cities, for the leaders who plan the operations, and for the soldiers who may pay the ultimate price. The Stalingrad Campaign Overview covers Case Blue in 1942. It will discuss the final advance to Stalingrad and how the city became the major German objective of the 1942 campaign. The overview will examine the struggle for Stalingrad itself, noting major combat actions across the city. Finally, this program briefly covers the major Soviet offensive, Operation Uranus, which encircled and destroyed the German 6th Army in Stalingrad. This film primarily focuses on planning, coordinating, and conducting large-scale combat operations in a high-intensity combat environment. It also provides an account of urban fighting within Stalingrad and focuses on the unique aspects of operating in a city. It will also highlight the insights gained from the German desire to maintain a swift advance despite the terrain difficulties and the Soviet defense measures which attempted to thwart the attackers. In the spring of 1942, following the failure of Operation Barbarossa the previous summer, Hitler and his commanders became less ambitious regarding their objectives for the upcoming campaign. Instead of major advances along the entire front, the plan focused on a single major advance in the south. He aimed more narrowly at an economic objective, the Caucasus oil fields, which would help him sustain the German industrial capacity. U.S. Joint and Army Doctrine advises commanders to adhere to the principle of objective and to direct every military operation toward a clearly defined, decisive, and achievable goal. Ultimately, however, Hitler's goals for the next campaign would not be achievable. Hitler and his military leaders' plan was called Case Blue. The operation was to begin with a powerful offensive by Army Group South, designed to destroy as much of the Red Army forces as possible without allowing them to withdraw. Then, the decisive operation. Army Group South would split into two groups, Army Group A and Army Group B. Army Group A would turn south and drive towards Baku to seize the oil fields in the Caucasus. Army Group B would simultaneously advance east and seize Stalingrad located on the Volga River. The capture of Stalingrad, though of some value for its factories, was mostly important for its geographic position. Seizing the city would allow Army Group B to control decisive terrain along a defensive line behind the Don and Volga Rivers. Army Group B would protect the flank and rear of Army Group A, giving it freedom to maneuver in the Caucasus. The German plan for the offense reflected three of the U.S. Army's four characteristics of the offense. It would achieve surprise by initially dispersing its forces in a deception operation. It would then concentrate its force at the right place and time, and it was most certainly audacious in its massive scale. Due to the extended distance of the offensive operation and massive sustainment and protection requirements, Hitler's commanding generals found it difficult to maintain tempo, which should characterize an effective offense. Stalin and the Soviet High Command, known by the Russian term Stavka, decided to transition to the defense. However, the Soviets made two major errors which left them vulnerable to the German offensive in the south. Stavka incorrectly predicted the German main effort would be in the center of the front towards Moscow. Thus, most of the Soviet reserves were located near the capital, and Stavka was reluctant to release these reserves to the south. Second, Stalin insisted on spoiling attacks in the center of the front near Rajev and in the south at Kharkov. Both offensives failed, and the Red Army suffered massive casualties with nothing to show for their efforts. For the Germans, Army Group South was the main effort, executing the decisive operation for Case Blue. The Army Group initially consisted of three German infantry armies, two Panzer armies, and one Hungarian army. It was assembled from more than one and a quarter million troops, 950,000 Germans and 300,000 Axis allies. It was also comprised of more than 1,600 tanks and 1,600 aircraft. The Army Group was initially commanded by Field Marshal Fedor Vambat, facing Army Group South where two Soviet fronts. Note that the Russian term front refers to an Army Group, with Soviet fronts being somewhat smaller than German Army Groups. The southwestern front was commanded by Field Marshal Semyon Timoshenko and consisted of four field armies. The southern front was commanded by Colonel General Rodion Malinowski and consisted of five field armies. The Soviet forces totaled almost one and three-quarters of a million troops, 3,000 tanks and 800 aircraft. Army Group South opened its offensive on 28 June and achieved some impressive advances. By 7 July, Colonel General Hermann Hoth's 4th Panzer Army had linked up with the 6th Army, Nivronage, on the Upper Don River. Two days later, Army Group South was redesignated Army Group B and Field Marshal Wilhelm List's Army Group A, consisting of the 1st Panzer and 17th Armies, was activated to begin its offensive into the Caucasus. The Russians believed this southern offensive in Ukraine was a supporting effort and the main German offensive would still be in the center toward Moscow. Thus, the Soviets poured reinforcements into the fight for Voronezh, but were hesitant to send reinforcements further south. On 11 July, Hitler ordered the 4th Panzer Army, which had been moving toward Stalingrad to change directions and move southeast to support List's Army Group A, which was struggling to secure crossings over the Don River. At the same time, the 8th Italian Army arrived as reinforcements to bolster Army Group B. After bitter fighting, Rostov fell on 23 July and Army Group A was now poised to advance into the Caucasus. With Rostov secure, Hitler transferred 24th Panzer Corps from the 4th Panzer Army to General Friedrich Paulus' 6th Army in order to reinforce the drive toward Stalingrad. Stalingrad now seemed to be developing into a more important objective. The offensive of List's Army Group A into the Caucasus region received its own codename, Operation Edelweiss. Its objectives were oil fields and refineries at Maikop, Grozny and Baku. This offensive faced significant challenges to include a long, tenuous supply line which stretched across more than 1,000 kilometers of a high-plane salt desert and the Caucasus' mountain range, with peaks above 5,600 meters. List faced many challenges with Operation Edelweiss, mainly of which would be the allocation of combat power across his incredibly long lines of communications. He needed to simultaneously secure his supply routes to thwart attacks by insurgents, allocate enough strength on his flanks to prevent Soviet counterattacks, all while still maintaining enough soldiers and machines for his main effort to seize the oil fields. Facing Army Group A was Marshal Simeon Budiones newly created North Caucasus Front. Army Group A's advance began on 25 July. By 30 July, Army Group A had crossed the dawn and was making good progress toward the Caucasus. That same day, Hitler detached the bulk of Hoth's 4th Panzer Army from List's Army Group and transferred it back to Army Group B under the command of Colonel General Maximilian von Weichs. Hoth's Panzer Army was to turn northeast toward Stalingrad and assist Paulus and his 6th Army in taking the city. With the detachment of Hoth's Army, List received the ill-equipped 4th Romanian Army as reinforcements. List tried to continue his exploitation with far less forces than he had hoped. He directed 1st Panzer and 17th Armies to advance south toward Maikop and Krasnodar. By 10 August, Army Group A had seized the Maikop oil fields, but the Soviets had burned most of the storage facilities and destroyed the well equipment. With supply lines stretched to the breaking point and units strewn across the Caucasus mountain range, Army Group A became bogged down. The German struggle to adequately allocate combat power illustrates the importance and difficulty in applying U.S. Army doctrine regarding operational reach and culmination point. Operational reach is the distance and duration across which a force can successfully employ military capabilities. Extending operational reach is a major concern for commanders throughout the duration of an operation. The limit of a unit's operational reach is its culminating point. It was not until 10 September that the Soviet stronghold of Novorossiysk was captured. List also tried to reinvigorate his group's offensive further south, but the Germans were unable to take Grozny and they were never able to threaten the faraway Baku. Annoyed at the slow progress, Hitler fired List and took personal command of Army Group A. As Army Group A's offensive was culminating in the Caucasus, the capture of Stalingrad began to take on a greater importance as the new main German objective. There were certainly valid reasons for wanting to seize the city. As mentioned earlier, it had some economic value and a key location on the Volga. Perhaps even more critical, the psychological value of the city named after Stalin himself loomed as a major influence on German decisions which ultimately committed 6th Army to seizing the city. Also, as the Caucasus's goals became more unattainable, Stalingrad became an alternate way to achieve victory in the 1942 campaign. While Army Group A was fighting in the Caucasus, Viking's Army Group B fought its way towards Stalingrad. After pausing in mid-July to allow supplies to catch up and reconstitute his combat power, Viking renewed his offensive on 23 July. Paulus' 6th Army now spearheaded the advance. Opposing the 6th Army was the newly created Stalingrad Front under Lieutenant General Vasily Gordov. His command consisted of 7 armies manning a front along the Don River and south to the Chir River. 6th Army made significant early gains, breaking through the right flank of the Soviet 62nd Army. However, the German advance overburdened its sustainment capacity. The Soviets took advantage of this vulnerability through a series of counterattacks which slowed 6th Army's progress and forced Paulus to temporarily transition to the defense on 1 August. US Army Doctrine 3-90 describes a counterattack as an attack by a defending force with the general objective of denying to the enemy the attainment of the enemy's purpose in attacking. Just as 6th Army's advance slowed, Halt's 4th Panzer Army began its offensive northeast towards Stalingrad from the south. After some initial success, the Soviets forced Halt's Army to Halt. During the German pause, Stalin and Stavka representative, Lieutenant General Alexander Vasilevsky, reorganized the Soviet forces defending Stalingrad. The large Stalingrad front was split, with Gordov retaining control of the new, reduced Stalingrad front, which now consisted of four armies. To the south, Colonel General Andrei Yermenko took command of the newly created southeastern front, consisting of three armies which had belonged to the old Stalingrad front. By 7 August, the German supply situation had somewhat improved and Paulus' 6th Army launched new attacks on the Soviet forces in the Don Bend. Late that night, a German double-envelopment met near Kalach and isolated a large part of the Soviet 62nd Army. Over the next three days, several Soviet divisions were destroyed. However, others survived and escaped to the east side of the Don. Paulus now faced a difficult choice. He could maintain the tempo of his offensive and advance directly east to Stalingrad, or he could continue fighting in the Don River Bend to destroy the remaining Soviet forces. By advancing, he could maintain his tempo and limit Soviet defensive preparation in Stalingrad. This, however, would leave significant Soviet forces available to attack his lines of communication. This army doctrine on risk provides insight into Paulus' decision. Field Manual 3-0 states, When commanders accept risk in large-scale ground combat operations, they create opportunities to seize, retain, and exploit the initiative and achieve decisive results. Commanders balance the tension between protecting the force and accepting risks in order to achieve military objectives. Experienced commanders balance audacity and imagination with risk and uncertainty. Paulus chose to protect his supply lines and finish the destruction of Soviet forces on his northern flank. However, this pause gave the Soviet forces a chance to prepare their defense of the city. With Soviet forces cleared from the Don Bend, Vikes planned his next offensive to first isolate and then seize Stalingrad. Paulus' 6th army was to establish a bridgehead over the Don near Verdiace with 51st Corps. Then, 14th Panzer Corps would pass through the bridgehead and attack along the high ground north of the Arlovka and Machetka rivers to the west bank of the Volga, north of Stalingrad. Halt's 4th Panzer army was to attack towards the north and east with the aim of reaching the Volga through the southern suburbs of Stalingrad. By this time it was clear to the Soviet leadership that his southern offensive was the main German effort. Stavka now sent troops to reinforce both the Stalingrad Front and Southeastern Front, hoping to build a viable linear defense and even launch spoiling attacks. However, the German offensive was launched before the Soviets could mount any serious offensives. Halt's assault began on 20 August and Paulus' attack began the next day. By 22 August, Halt had forced the Soviets to retreat to the northeast to a new line and finally Paulus' troops had established a solid bridgehead across the Don River. At daybreak on 23 August, 6th army's spearhead, the 14th Panzer Corps, under Colonel General Hans Valentin Huba, initiated their advance from the Verdiace bridgehead and displaced the 62nd army. At the same time, the Luftwaffe began a series of massive airstrikes against the city. The lead elements of Huba's 14th Panzer Corps opted to move as rapidly as possible, assuming risk without protecting their flanks, and they reached the Volga north of the village of Rhinoch that evening. The 16th Panzer Division historian gave his account of seeing the Volga for the first time. And then the first tank stood at the high western bank of the Volga. The white dark river was flowing still and majestic, carrying barges and towed downriver. And on the other side, the Asian steppe spread out into infinity. Although the Germans had reached the Volga, 6th army's long northern flank was vulnerable. The Soviet Stalingrad Front saw this vulnerability and decided to exploit it by attacking the German northern flank over the next several days. The attacks were costly and did not penetrate the German line, but they prevented 6th army from diverting combat power to the main effort. The integration of counterattacks is one of the US army's characteristics of the defense. Defending forces seek to disrupt attacks by employing actions that desynchronize the enemy's forces' preparations. They counterattack to deny the enemy force the ability to exploit. Simultaneously, while the 6th army advanced to the Volga, Hoth's 4th Panzer Army resumed its offensive. But due to fierce Soviet resistance, it was forced to temporarily transition to the defense. On 29 August, Hoth renewed the attack and advanced almost 20 kilometers to the north. The Germans advanced for Soviet General Yermenko to order the 62nd and 64th armies to withdraw to new defensive lines near Stalingrad. Hoth now had a chance to cut off the Soviet retreat by driving due north, but instead, 24th Panzer Division turned east toward the southern suburbs. The Germans now faced a major struggle to capture the city of Stalingrad itself. From 3 to 12 September, the Germans tightened the cordon around the city and began clearing the suburbs to the west of the urban area. Weichs planned for Hube's 14th Panzer Corps to attack Stalingrad from the north, while 51st Corps, commanded by Lieutenant General Walter von Silitz Kurzbach, was to advance into the city from the northwest and west. However, Soviet attacks in the Katluban region prevented Hube's 14th Panzer Corps from participating in the advance on Stalingrad. Therefore, Paulus reinforced Silitz's 51st Corps with a division from the German 8th Corps along the Don. 51st Corps then slowly fought its way into the western suburbs of the city. This reinforcement from the 8th Corps was the beginning of a continuing pattern. As the fight for the city ground down German units, Paulus and Weichs reallocated combat power from the flanks of the 6th Army to support the decisive operation. South of the city, both sides fought for the suburbs. On 9 September, 4th Panzer Army's 48th Panzer Corps under Lieutenant General Werner Kempf made slow but steady gains. Later that day, 29th Motorized Division became the first German unit to reach the Volga on the southern side of the city. The 62nd and 64th Armies were now separated and the 62nd Army could only receive reinforcements and resupply by ferry boats crossing the Volga river. Although separated, the 62nd Army was not fully isolated and would continue to sustain its defensive operations for the duration of the campaign. This ability to sustain defensive operations created a massive and continuous German requirement for additional forces and supplies to resource the decisive operation in the city and contributed to their inability to balance combat power between their decisive and shaping operations. That same day, on 9 September, Hitler held a conference in his advance headquarters in Venetsk, Ukraine, which was attended by both Weichs and Paulus. During the meeting, Hitler believed that his commanders would quickly complete the seizure of the city. While Hitler held his conference in Ukraine, Stalin removed the commander of the 62nd Army. At Yermenko's urging, Stalin appointed Lieutenant General Vasily Choykov as the new commander. Choykov was unable to reach the 62nd Army headquarters on the summit of Mamayev Kurgan in the center of the city until three days later on the evening of 12 September. The night before, the first major German effort to take the city. As Paulus' 6th Army prepared to assault into Stalingrad, there were a number of important locations that would become crucial in the fight for the city. The suburbs north of the city, the factory district, each of the factories had workers' villages to their west. Immediately south of the factory district was the hill known as Mamayev Kurgan, which was the highest natural elevation in the city. Central Stalingrad was the most modern section of the city, a show place for Soviet progress. Southern Stalingrad, which contained the 35 meter tall grain elevator, and further south were more suburbs. Paulus' 6th Army assault force consisted of three corps. Hubba's 14th Panzer Corps, with one Panzer Division and two motorized divisions. Seidlitz's 51st Corps, initially consisting of three infantry divisions. And Kempf's 48th Panzer Corps, initially consisting of one Panzer Division, one motorized division, and one infantry division. The total German strength in the Stalingrad area was 170,000. However, this included forces defending and unavailable for the initial attack. The assault force was about 80,000 men. Paulus' plan to take the city focused on seizing the center and southern portions of Stalingrad first. Hubba's 14th Panzer Corps was to hold the northern face of the German penetration north of Stalingrad against continued Soviet attacks. Seidlitz's 51st Corps was to advance from the northwest to the southeast through the Red-October workers' villages and seize Mamayev Kurgan, and also advance to Stalingrad's city center with the goal of taking railroad station number one. Kempf's 48th Panzer Corps was instructed to advance east and northeast, clearing southern Stalingrad. On the Soviet side, Choykov's 62nd Army was an ad hoc force of untested reinforcements and several older units which had been decimated in earlier fighting. Choykov had no subordinate headquarters between his army and the 18 divisions, brigades, and regiments that were his subordinate commands. Prior to the initial assaults on the city, 62nd Army's strength was about 54,000 men on 13 September, and it had about 100 tanks distributed in small groups throughout the front. U.S. Army doctrine advises leaders to assess relative combat power during planning. This involves making a rough estimate of force ratios of maneuver units two levels below their echelon. Planners then compare friendly strengths against enemy weaknesses and vice versa for each element of combat power. During the attack, the minimum historic planning ratio is 3 to 1. On 13 September, at 0645 hours, a German air and artillery bombardment opened the attack. Stuka squadrons, artillery, and mortars heavily engaged targets throughout the city. The Soviets in response, as they often did in previous engagements, opposed the German advance with heavy artillery and Katusha rocket strikes from across the river and counter-battery fire. As they had in prior urban operations, the Germans often began each day's assaults with heavy artillery and air barrages. The intention of these bombardments was to demoralize the defending troops and facilitate the rapid seizure of the city. However, the success of this heavy firepower was mixed in Stalingrad. Often, the best German advances were made after these bombardments. But due to the lengthy operation, the city turned into a mass of rubble, mangled steel, and debris. Rubble piles provide excellent covered and concealed positions for dismounted forces while hindering mounted movement and maneuver. At 0800, following the pre-assault fires, Sidelitz's 51st Corps launched its attack. The Corps made slight gains in the north. In the center, it captured two key hills and forced Soviet defenders to withdraw to the west. On the corps' southern flank, the Germans reached the heights above the center city and pushed the Soviets into a developing salient north of the Sarista River. Kemp's 48th Panzer Corps also began its attack at 0800. The Panzer Corps made only limited advances against the entrenched and stubborn defenders. The German 6th Army focused its attacks on southern and central Stalingrad for the next two weeks. The force responsible for clearing the south was initially Kemp's 48th Corps. His plan for clearing his sector was to advance with all three divisions online. Troikov's 62nd Army had several units defending the southern sector of Stalingrad. According to a 24th Panzer Division report on 14 September, German gains were limited and costly in the south. Despite the limited success in the last two days, the Germans planned for a major breakthrough in the southern sector on 15 September using specially organized task forces called Kumpf Groups for the urban fighting. These groups were combined arms forces with added firepower, attached engineers and flamethrower units. As in Army Techniques publication 3-06, commanders select the right subordinate force for the mission and balance it with appropriate attachments. High commanders do not direct how to organize the small tactical combined arms teams but ensure that subordinates have the proper balance of forces from which to form these teams. The attack began at 0-3-30 hours and by mid-afternoon the Germans had reached the area just west of Railroad Station No. 2. After a quick but harsh fight, the Germans captured the railway station later that afternoon. The group then left a small force behind to defend the station while the main body resumed its northern advance. During their advance, the German Kumpf Group could not help but notice the massive towering structure of the grain elevator and were amazed at how the building dominated the terrain in this area. From 16-17 September, part of the 48th Panzer Corps turned its attention to reducing the pocket of Soviet troops west of the railroad line while other divisions focused on the fight for the grain elevator. The Germans broke Soviet resistance in southern Stalingrad from 19-21 September, finally clearing the grain elevator. By 23 September, the Germans cleared the last Soviet resistance south of the Sarista River. While fighting raged in southern Stalingrad, Paulus' 6th Army simultaneously battled Troikov's 62nd Army in the center city and at Mamievkirgen. The German 51st Corps renewed its assaults on 14 September. At midday, the Germans took Mamievkirgen. The loss of Mamievkirgen caused a panic in some Soviet units in center city. When the Germans renewed their advance in the afternoon, they were able to seize railroad station No. 1. Later that day, Troikov committed his last reserves to hold the landing stage. This enabled the Soviet 13th Guards Rifle Division under Major General Alexander Rodimtsev to ferry across the Volga in the remaining hours of daylight starting at about 1700 hours. Crossing while it was still light and thus subject to German air attack was a risk that Troikov felt he must take. The arrival of the 13th Guards Rifle Division certainly saved Troikov's 62nd Army in Stalingrad in September. It consisted of 10,000 men but not all of them could come over in one night. It took several days and they can bring any of their heavy equipment. They had to leave the artillery on the other side of the Volga also. Now they did enter the city, retake the railroad station for a while and hold some other buildings. This is crucial and this pattern of reinforcement repeated itself throughout the campaign. For the next two weeks, fighting raged back and forth in three major areas. Near Red Square in the center city, the railroad station changed hands twice while the Soviets desperately held on to the nail factory and the department store. By 24 September, the remnants of the 13th Guards Rifle Division were surrounded near Red Square. With better knowledge of the city layout, the remaining soldiers of the 13th Guards escaped through the German lines. Just to the north, the Germans pressed home attacks with the intent of clearing the rest of the city center. However, the Soviets held several enclaves and one of those gained fame for holding out throughout the remainder of the battle for the city. This location was Pavlov's house in the 9th January Square area. The building was named after Sergeant Jacob Pavlov, who led a group of Soviet soldiers who took the building by surprise on 25 September. Further north on 16 September, Soviet troops forced the Germans off of the summit of Mamayev Kurgan shortly after dawn. Later, a German counterattack pushed the Soviets back from the summit. The foes shared the hill, with the summit usually being an artillery and air ravaged no man's land for much of the rest of the battle. Towards the end of September, the German 6th Army had cleared all Soviet resistance from southern Stalingrad. The Germans had also cleared much of the center of the city, although a few enclaves like Pavlov's house and the critical eastern slope of Mamayev Kurgan remained in the hands of the Soviet 62nd Army. Nonetheless, the 6th Army commander believed it was time to shift forces to the northern half of the city and transition to an offensive in that region. In shifting forces, the Germans illustrate one of the four components of the U.S. Army operational framework described in Field Manual 3-0. Commanders designate the main and supporting efforts to designate the shifting and prioritization of resources. The 6th Army planned for its offensive on the northern sector of Stalingrad to begin on 27 September. Pavlovs believed that 6th Army needed to clear the workers' villages to the west of the factories before moving on to the three main factory complexes. Pavlovs assigned Silas's 51st Corps as the 6th Army's main effort for clearing the workers' villages and later the factories themselves. At 10.30 on 27 September, following two hours of artillery and aerial bombardment, 51st Corps began its advance on the workers' village. In the north, elements of Silas's corps pushed the Soviets back on the south side of the Machetka River and entered into the area north of the Upper Berikotty Workers' Village. To the south, task-organized conf groups captured part of the Upper Red October Workers' Village. However, German units even further south encountered heavy resistance and were stopped after minimal gains near Mamayev Kurgan. The Germans paused in the Workers' Village area. While there, forces cleared the Soviet resistance in the Orlovka Salient. Then, the Germans reopened their offensive on the villages on 3 October. Elements of the German 51st Corps advanced through the Berikotty Workers' Village and captured the Silicott Factory. Other corps units advanced just west of the Traktor Factory Village and in the other village districts making small gains. However, Troikov received a fresh division from the east side of the Volga and the Red troops halted the German advance the next day. The Germans had cleared much of the workers' villages, but on the evening of 4 October, Silas informed Paulists that due to overwhelming losses of men and equipment, his corps could no longer engage in offensive operations. The Germans entered into a pause in offensive operations for a full 10 days until 14 October in order to regroup and resupply. US Army Field Manual 3-90-1 describes what the Germans experienced. Usually, offensive actions lose momentum when friendly forces encounter heavily defended areas that cannot be bypassed. They also reach a culminating point when the resupply of fuel, ammunition, and other supplies fails to keep up with expenditures. Soldiers become physically exhausted, casualties and equipment losses mount, and repairs and replacements do not keep pace with damage and losses. In some cases, the unit can regain its momentum, but this only happens after difficult fighting or an operational pause. During the lull, Vikes reinforced the 6th Army at Stalingrad, with two divisions from units outside of the city. Even with these reinforcements, Paulists was attacking with units which had suffered devastating losses in the overall campaign, and in particular in the fight for the city. The divisions of 51st Corps, which had already been engaged in the city fight, were only able to field 1,700 to 2,100 soldiers out of an authorized strength of 4,500 to 6,300. 24th Panzer Division was down to 20 to 30 tanks out of 103 authorized. The reinforcing infantry division was only slightly better off with just over 4,000 men, while the newly assigned Panzer Division added 35 to 45 tanks. Choykov's 62nd Army had also suffered enormous losses. For the upcoming factory fight, his divisions averaged about 3,000 men each out of an authorized strength of 10,500. He had about 40 tanks to use in the factory defense, almost all of which were light tanks. Counting on his reinforcements, Paulists was ready to enter what he hoped would be the final phase of his attack on Stalingrad. Once again, the 51st Corps was the main effort. It was to attack northeast through the Lower Tractor Factory Village into the factory and to the Machetka and Volga Rivers. The German offensive began on 14 October at 07.30 hours. By early afternoon, the Germans had advanced deep into the Tractor Factory complex. Fighting continued throughout the night and into the morning hours of 15 October, with the Germans clearing the remainder of the factory complex by the end of 15 October. On the evening of 15 October, Paulists ordered Silits to regroup his forces and reorient south to attack the Barracotti factory the next day. At 0800 on 16 October, 51st Corps offensive in the Barracotti factory district began. Initially, well-placed, dug-in Soviet tanks halted the German advance. However, by 1600, the German panzers had destroyed many of the Soviet tanks and advanced into the north end of the Barracotti factory. By nightfall, almost half of the Barracotti factory was in Silits' hands. The Germans continued their assaults on the Barracotti factory on 17 October. Over the next two days, the Germans slowly cleared most of the buildings in the Barracotti complex. Silits planned for new assaults, but heavy rains slowed the movement of German supplies and prevented the launch of new attacks for the next four days. During this time, Paulists received a fresh division to use in his assaults and make up for the devastating losses that his other divisions had suffered. While 62nd Army continued to draw German forces into the battle at Stalingrad, Stavka planned for Operation Uranus, a vast double-envelopment designed to trap and destroy 6th Army in the city. Paulists renewed the German attack in the factory region on 23 October. In the Barracotti area, one German division made little progress against the Soviets defending the southern halls of the Barracotti complex. In the Red-October factory complex, Silits' fresh division made good initial gains. Over the next two days, the Germans continued to press their attacks on both factories. They succeeded in clearing almost all the buildings in the Barracotti area.


This is Nev and this is Laura. They just got married nine months after they had their baby Cleo. Oops, honestly, they have no idea what they're doing. But whatever, they're in love. And we're here to help. I remember how horrible first dates can be, especially when you meet someone online and they're not who they say they are. Really? People still lie on the internet?   We flew from Texas to Atlanta, no, Wyoming, because there was this guy who was walking this girl and turned out the girl actually was the guy's sister or aunt or something. I don't remember, but if you think that's crazy, wait till you hear about all these other episodes of Catfish. Or doing something really obnoxious so that the person finally gets the message, you don't wanna see them anymore.  I think the first thing is you assess how bad the date really was.  Is this person really someone you should never talk to again?  Hello? Is this Caroline? I went out with this guy recently and it was fine, like I didn't fall in love with him or anything and I didn't hate him. It was just kind of whatever. And he's been blowing up my phone asking me for another date. And I tried telling him I was busy, but he's like, oh, you know, I'll work with your schedule and trying to be accommodating. So how do I tell him that I don't want another date? Block his number. No. Block his number, block his social media, if he doesn't exist. Also wait, so you're 100% not interested in him, right? I think so, yeah, yeah, I think it's a no-go. You think so? I mean, I don't know, when I think about Nev and I's first date, I thought he was like a little bit weird.  I wasn't sure, and so I gave him the second chance and now we're happier than ever. Well, we have Crystal that's written in. Let's see. I went out with a guy that I really liked and when I was coming back from the bathroom, I saw him hitting on another girl at the bar. Oh. But now he won't stop calling and texting me saying he's sorry, and I should forgive him because it's not like we're in a serious relationship right now. Anyways, we're not serious anyway. Who cares, chill. He's a player. He's a city boy. That's what I'm saying. He's a city boy. Sounds like a f***ing boy. New York City f***ing boy. I know them. Just because a guy acts like that doesn't necessarily mean he can't focus his attention to be unbelievably faithful and loving and committed. That said, if you don't think he's ready to be dating just you and not flirting with and hitting on and picking up other women right now and you can't handle that, then I don't think it's gonna work. Then you gotta get out. Yeah, you gotta get out. You gotta get out of there.  Right. I mean, go for it. Yes, hi, who's this? This is Don. Hey, handsome. So I met this girl on Tinder a while back and I went on a date with her a couple weeks ago and it went cool. She's really cool. Been talking a lot since the date. Right after the date though, she started joking around about like, oh, we're gonna get married. Oh, we're gonna take a trip together. And that's just freaking me out a little bit.  Is it too soon? Are you into her? Yeah, absolutely. I just don't know if I'm that serious yet, you know? I mean, it's been one day, just about a couple weeks. Be like, the marriage jokes are weirding me out. Let's stop doing that. Like via text or should text? Like the next time she makes a marriage joke, be like, hey. Be like, hey, haha, just kidding, not funny. Please stop. Never mind, I'll never see you again. Why don't you just start dropping jokes about like having orgies and doing heavy drugs and like see how she reacts? I think you just hang out with her again and feel it out. So I mean, cause if she is just joking, like, whatever, you'll get a better, the more you see her, you'll get a better sense of how marriage obsessed she really is. Yeah, but I mean, listen to me, Don. Don, Don Don. Don, Don, Don, Don, Don, Don, Don, Don, Don, Don, Don. Just marry the girl, your name is very perfect.


Thank you for those They try to follow some fish and you know what he just said you're amazing We are learning about say this for me die handy die handy. It's a festival. That's today It's and we're going to be learning about the little history of it. Okay, it's I think it's called like the most dangerous Festival in the world or India or something seriously. Yeah, so it's something like that. Why is it dangerous? I think we'll find out Is it as dangerous as me sitting next to you when I'm opening when I don't know if you're gonna scream and yell or hit me Probably more. Yeah, here we go Red Bull that must be dangerous. I'm not kidding The video credit goes to Red Bull TV What the world looks like from 40 feet high? Generally, this is the stuff people dream about but for a special view. This is reality These human pyramids are built on the streets of Mumbai city on the occasion of Delhi This event is rooted in Indian tradition and is celebrated on a festive occasion To the destruction of evil each religious festival carries with it a story Celebrated on the day of Janmashtami Janmashtami marks the birth of the Hindu deity Krishna Krishna is considered to be the 8th avatar of Vishnu who is one of the three main Hindu gods Vishnu is known to be the preserver of protector and his avatar of Krishna is often depicted as a child with blue skin Legends from the ancient scriptures tell us that a young Krishna was very fond of yoga He would consume large quantities of it and yet this would not satisfy his craving To stop him from doing so his family and friends would tie the pot of yoga at a height above the ground far out of his reach But young Krishna determined in his ways would always get his hands on the yoga However, harder task it turned out to be On the occasion of his birth this innocent act of you is recreated by men and women on the streets of Mumbai This event is known as that he handy and translates to a pot of yogurt Oh, yeah, this is a presentation of Krishna's childhood quest and a story anywhere between 20 and 40 feet above the ground Thousands of teams known as Gobindapathaks construct human pyramids and events organized across the city At these events the team that is able to construct the highest pyramid takes home the price Mumbai is home to more than a thousand such Gobindapathaks While some butters up close knit and small there are a few who form teams of around 600 athletes. What? These athletes trained for nearly 90 days prior to the main event This tradition has given rise to some iconic sports teams who have been constructing human pyramids in Mumbai Two of the city's iconic teams are the Jai Javan Govindapathak and the Parley Sports Club In 2012 the Jai Javan Govindapathak constructed a 14 3.79 feet human pyramid and broke a 21-year-old Guinness World Record Would you do that insanely high? Would you do that? I don't think I would I don't think I would The Parley Sports Club is a binary all-girl team from Mumbai. Oh, yeah, the only team who have been invited to New York City for an athletic showcase Yeah, you've never heard about this? No. Yeah, me too. Never. Nothing. Too much beat. The focus on the bottom, man. The one underlying factor that unites all the Govindapathaks from across the city is the strength of unity I guess all the college team represents a distinct neighborhood These teams usually attract like-minded people and form strong bonds Yeah, that would trust you'd have in each other I think is the sound copyright? Maybe The pyramid's base and the first two levels must comprise of mentally and physically fit athletes Being of a calm and stable mind is an important asset a player must develop to excel at this sport Each year preparation begins around three months prior to the main event During this time communication among team members is very important I am not in the same team as you I am not in the same team as you In the case of a statue, you are in a different team You have to keep up with the practice You have to think about the next day, what to do What to do, what to do, what to do What are the problems in the Thara? I have solved all of these problems I have been to the same team as you I have been to the Parley Sports Club I have been to the Parley Sports Club I have been to the Parley Sports Club I don't know if I will ever be able to do this. I will be able to do this for the next year. Because, I have never been able to do this before. I have never been able to do this before. I have never been able to do this. My restriction is occasional e-collapse. Oh, goodness gracious. And with younger children on top and no cushioning on the ground. Oh my stars. Were put in place to curb injuries that arise from such accidents. I think that's what they are often around the coast for, yeah. It is important that the sports committee takes care of its athletes. For instance, in a country like Spain, human pyramids are formed as a part of festive celebration throughout the year. They are known as Castells and the sport is supported by the local government. In 2010, UNESCO declared this to be among the masterpieces of oral and intangible heritage of humanity. Over the past few years, teams of Spanish Castellas have travelled to Mumbai and exchanged techniques and stories with the athletes here. It's so extreme that two cultures difference doing the same and are so fun. But I think that it's so beautiful. Different teams in Catalonia. If you do human towers, it's like a family or the people from the different teams. And when we think about the windows, it's similar. It's human towers too. It feels like the same feeling that, ah, we are the same. Yeah. It has been a learning experience for athletes on both the sides. It has pushed them to test their strength and set larger goals to accomplish. What have they put in it? It's not yogurt. Well, it's not yogurt. We're accustomed to. I bet it's a kind of yogurt that has been met with a lot of cheer. It's familiar to them, but not familiar to us. Yeah, it doesn't look like yogurt. We know. Way too light. Yeah, too well. Many athletes have benefited in life by way of this sport. This sport has now reached a much wider audience than before. However, there is a strong belief within the community that in order to scale greater heights, the skill must be taught to children in school. In school. That's the current. Sure, they must learn younger. The younger you learn it, by the time you would be 18 to do it, you'd have an experience that you probably need. Guarantee you can't climb on top of people. With each attack, the numbers get larger. Get actually elected. No, they're getting requested. We're going to build a pyramid seat. While others choose this day to showcase their skill, in this villages and cultural frenzy, everyone has one share in, to build the tallest pyramid and find the best view of the city. I think the Egyptians won. 50, nearly 50 feet high is staggering. That's really, really, really high. It's almost as tall as... That's a five-story building. That's high, man.  See, the part for me that would be the hard, not really the height, I can deal with height. The height is not a really issue for me. It's the feet, isn't it? Well, it's the feet and trusting other people below me. Did we ever do the fall exercise for the trust exercise in theater? Oh, I can do that, because that's not really a far... If I fall on the ground, I'm like, whatever, I fell on the ground, it's not that far. That's true, I only had you guys stand on the table. That I can do, that's not really an issue. But you're pretty high up and you're having to trust somebody. Same reason I have a problem with skydiving. Because I have to, one, trust something to go off. And then also another person. So that's the issue. It's not really the height that scares me. Interesting. It's the fact that I have to trust somebody else to perform their tasks. Right. And I don't know them. And your safety and well-being is dependent upon someone else taking care of a task that they would prefer you were taking care of yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And feet. Yeah, I don't like the feet being that close to my face. Yeah, Alexis would feel the same way. In case you didn't know that about Alexis, Alexis does not like feet. It doesn't even get into your feet. Well, it is, they're disgusting. It is. Nothing against your feet, but it doesn't want your feet against him. That's true. And that's cool. I mean, I had no idea this was even a thing. I didn't either. I mean, India has a thousand festivals. Of course. But I didn't know this was, this activity was part of it. And I also don't know in the realm of when you said that like the most dangerous ritual kind of thing or I guess it falls under the festival. For sure. The most dangerous festival. The most dangerous like sporting event I've ever seen that I know of is, I don't know if it's Scotland or Ireland that does it where they're running down the hill. And the log is, and they're writing the logs as a log to it down the hill. People are getting run over by these giant tree trunks. It's not really a festival. It's just a sport. Yeah. So this is by far a festival. I think like a festival wise. Very interesting. Very interesting. Look at that. You learned something new.  Well, they didn't learn anything. Oh yeah. That's us. We're learning. Unless they're like American. Now we're less stupider. But I'm sure they know about this. Obviously. But yeah, that was cool. Let us know. There's other festivals coming up. Please let us know in advance. Because like I said, there's a thousand. And we can kind of keep track of like the big ones, Durgapooja. And I think we should gather a bunch of people here and do this just so you can climb to the top and have to deal with people's feet. I don't have to deal with feet. They have to deal with my feet. That's true. So you'd rather go to the top than be on the bottom. Yeah. Oh yeah.


I'd like to call the meeting to orders, July 11th meeting of the Popular Planning Commission. First, we have to approve the agenda so people can take a look and move to approve. I'll move to approve the agenda. Okay, do you have a second? Second. Second for Marianne, those in favor of approving the agenda say aye. Aye. Okay, any opposed? Okay. The next thing on the agenda is comments from the chair. I don't think I have anything since last time. I think I've already pulled everyone about the verge article that came out at the end of June. Nothing else comes to mind as far as things. Seems like we're still on schedule. Things are slowing down for the summer but things are still on schedule with the city plan. And later tonight I want to talk briefly about arts and culture so we can get some movement on that chapter. But I don't have anything. Does anyone else have any updates or anything? Okay. Next item on the agenda is general business. So comments from the public about something not on the agenda. We do have one member of the public here. So if the person with the name Tim Zimmett has anything that they would like to bring in the planning commission. Just attending to see what is going on. Thank you. Okay. We're welcome. Okay, so we can move on. First thing we're going to do is discuss the recommendation for a new alternate member for the CVRPC. I think the hope here, why this is on the agenda is that someone hopefully will volunteer and step up and help Gabe. He's still willing to take one of those two slots but we do need someone else. Well, so I would just lead with this that Ariane, when you were out of town last week said that she would be willing to take that spot. So I would suggest and actually would nominate. I don't think it's the right process if you can correct me but I would nominate that Ariane be our representative to the central remote planning commission and then Mike go back into the alternate slot. Okay. Ariane and Mike, how do you feel about that? I, so this is a, can I just clarify? I was feeling very guilty when I had missed two planning commissions in a row. So yes, I did volunteer in that when I was in that emotional space. Sorry to take advantage of you Ariane. No, no, no. I just want to, well, I want to ask a question and clarify what the commit time commitment is. So we are getting a new member to replace Marcella, right? At some point, yes. At some point, but that just hasn't happened yet. Okay. And this is a once a month meeting commitment on Tuesdays. Is that correct for the CBRPC? So Kirby probably, he's served on it for a while so he probably can speak better but my discussions with Marcella was that I would cover the general meeting which is tomorrow, you know, on a monthly basis. And then she would continue, she had volunteered for some committees and that was what was really dragging her down was the committee work. That was just a lot of extra work. And so that was how we decided we were going to sort of split the work but I don't know if it's required that you fill a committee Kirby, you probably know better than I do. All right. From my view, it's absolutely not required that you fill in the same capacity that Marcella was. She had volunteered, it sounded like for a couple of the more intensive committees. And I'm sure, you know, being one of the larger towns in the county, I'm sure that they would like Mopulier to be really active but I don't think there's any requirement that our representative take on a whole bunch. And so it's really up to you. I think that there's an understanding that you're on at least one subcommittee. But as we've said before, there's a number of subcommittees that don't meet regularly. And she was on the executive committee, which is, you know, a busy one. So like Aaron, for example, I said I would serve on this Act 250 review committee which only meets when there's a project that meets some certain scope that would impact that entire area. And so it's pretty rare. And when they've had them, it's mostly been solar projects that go through fairly quickly. Okay, yeah, I mean, I feel like I could handle, you know, for up to a year, I could handle one more meeting a month, but I probably am not, you know, I can really do more than that. But if I can be on a committee that does not have, that has maybe, you know, what are two extra meetings over the next year? I could probably do that. But yeah, I feel like one more meeting a month is probably realistic, my max kind of capacity. Yeah, I think that that would be okay. And there's also the alternate to help out. That's why there's two. Mike, what are your thoughts about being... Yeah, I mean, I served alternate. I think when you were on Kirby and I think when Tina was on as well, I was the alternate and it mostly, I would just fill in in the event that somebody wasn't able to make it. So there wasn't a lot of obligation on my end. So yeah, I can fill back in in that spot. But usually I'm just playing back up. And I think what Gabe and Marcello were trying to do was to kind of split the workload between being able to serve on some committees as well as being able to do some general as well. But usually I haven't been attending that many meetings, but I serve in a backup capacity if we need somebody. Yeah, I mean, I think part of the reason why we were trying to balance things that way is because Marcello didn't want to step down from her commitments, but she's leaving now. So it's not the same commitments. And they do a pretty good job of trying to pressure people into getting into committees, but you certainly, your ability to say no, goes a long way to just say, I can't take on anymore. And I think nominations also already went through. So you actually might be showing up in time for a year where you're already outside of the nomination cycle for committees. The other thing, they have alternates on all these. So if you can't be on something, even that sort of partial one that I was gonna serve on, because I have another commitment that same Thursday sometimes. And she's like, well, if you can't make it, we have alternates appointed. So there's a lot of flexibility. And the other thing I would say, and you both probably, Mike and Kirby probably know better, but it seems to me like most of the other people that were there are retired and probably have more capacity to do some of these things than somebody who's working full-time might. So I feel like, yes, we're not pillager, but there's a lot of capacity there for some of the other commissioners. Yeah, I agree with that. So yeah, don't feel pressured to take on more than you can with it, just don't. I mean, I was on it for a while and honestly, I didn't even feel the pressure when they tried to recruit me. I was just like, I'm busy, no. So yeah, well, okay. So if the two of you are okay with that, we can do it and we can reassess after a year or whatever period of time too. I think Marcel was on it maybe a little too long anyway. It's technically an annual appointment. So I'll forward that recommendation to council. Okay, do you need a vote? Okay. As long as it's... Okay. Thank you, Mike. Thank you, Ariane, for stepping up. Huge help. The next thing on the agenda is to talk about awarding the web-based city plan contract to either Stone Environmental or SE Group. I'm gonna hand it over to Gabe because I wasn't there. So Gabe, if you can just give us some backgrounds and we'll have some discussion if we need to and then we'll just do a vote. Yeah, so I don't know if people had an opportunity to take a look at the different materials that were provided or the Orca show, sort of after the fact, they both came in. I mean, both very professional. I think my impression, I'm not... I mean, that's not my space. So I don't wanna necessarily put my thumb on the scale for everyone, but my impression of Stone Environmental was that GIS and linking those things seemed to be their strong point. Whereas, is it SE? What's the other contractor? SE Group.  I mean, they're all about integrative media. So they have some GIS, they actually kind of move beyond some of the capabilities that maybe we'll use, but maybe we won't, Mike, you maybe talk about some of those programs, but they have access to some of those programs. If they have other programs that they find might work better and just watching their demonstration, the two different demonstrations of the website. Again, one is very sort of what you think of if you've drilled into any of our... I mean, they built what we have for the transportation folks, right, the road crews and stuff, the snow plow. So I mean, it very much looks like that. Whereas, if you're thinking about really going through a plan where you can really get a feel for what's going on, that's what SE was doing. It really is like, just very dynamic and interactive, I guess would be my comments. Does anyone else have any feedback or impressions to share? Yeah, I was just gonna say, I think both of them give fine presentations. I think there is a certain appeal about having stone being local, retaining them. That being said, I just feel like overall, I got the sense that SE group has quite a bit more experience, I think doing the kinds of work that this would be calling for. And so I just think that given the budget that we're throwing at them, there's a little more potential for them. For us to get a little more bang for our buck, they're not gonna be reinventing the wheel to do this sort of work, I don't think. So I would lean towards SE group. That being said, I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with retaining stone. Thanks, Aaron. I will go ahead and just share Jeff's email for the record. Jeff, of course, won't be voting tonight because he's not in attendance, but he was there for the presentation and said that he found both sides compelling but felt that SE balances mapping and planning and his portfolio fits the RFP. So those are, that's just feedback. Do we have any other comments about it? Do we have a motion to approve either one of the two consultants or to recommend either one of the two consultants? I'd move that we retain SE group to do the work. Okay. I second. I second. Second from Gabe. Any discussion before we vote on that? This is a little bit of an aside, but like I said, I would like to see if there are ways that we can incorporate sort of getting stone involved given that they are local. And I was just gonna ask Mike, is there any, do we see any sort of any ancillary work with this that we may be able to pull them in in a future date or this, we sort of see this as a one shot deal with SE? Well, I see they work a lot with DPWs. So we have some GIS capabilities in our public works department. And so Stone has worked with them. That's why we've got the Snowplow tracking program that's in there. But this would be kind of its own thing, but Stone is, we just, the Elks Club environmental work that was just done, the phase one Brownfield work was done by Stone. We, you know, Stone routinely comes in, they may not have this contract, but they get picked up on quite a few projects being the local company. And I do think that it's worth mentioning they're both using the same platform. So if, you know, future edits or work is required, it's not like one could not pick up where the other one left off because they are both familiar with the same technology and the same backend. So it would not be hard for them just to jump in. Yeah. That's good to know. Do you have any more discussion on the motion? Okay, hearing none, those in favor of the motion to recommend SC group for the website work, say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Any abstain? Okay, so it's five zero, sorry, five zero favor of the motion. And that will be our recommendation for city council. Okay, moving on. So yeah, I'd ask Mike to throw in there just so we can have a little bit more meat to the agenda and also just to move on things that we can move on. A discussion of a possible Arsiculture chapter. So I'm gonna share screen and show you what we have. Okay, can everyone see the document? So this is based on just like some like preliminary, like throwing something together for discussion a lot earlier. Right now there's, this definitely we need to be rephrased and Lena, Mike would be doing that to rephrase it to match the same conventions as used in other chapters. But there's three aspirations here right now. One of them is popular will support public art integrated into the urban landscape. So once public art, another is popular will support private artistic exhibits and performances. And then the last one is popular will support the development of artistic skills and art appreciation in the region. I think it's not here, but we had mentioned this could also be a space where if we're going to incorporate in the planning for the city, like doing more to appreciate like cultures, culture going back a very long time. Like so like native culture stuff. I think there's some room to also do that if we have interest. So first off I'd say, what do people think about this? What do you think about those aspirations? Let's just start there. So maybe you mentioned this and I forgot. Are these aspirations that you came up with or Mike came up with? Cause there's no committee that kind of is in the sphere. Yeah. If I remember correctly, like I wrote this originally I spoke with a couple of local artists to get their input about what they thought was important. And I also spoke with the person who's the chair of the public, there's a public art committee, I believe now, right, Mike? And I spoke with him too, but I don't remember his name right now, but he seemed just like he liked the idea but he didn't, I don't remember him giving a lot of substance actually. It was the local artists that gave me a lot of substantive feedback. Okay, cool. Thanks. I just wanted to get the background, reminded of the background. Yeah. And this could be though something that once, like moving forward now, now that there is the public arts committee we could absolutely have them take a look at the first draft. Did you review the public art master plan for this one? No. There is a public art master plan that was developed. When was that done? Is that pretty recent? Everything turns into a blur since COVID. It was since COVID though? Well, may have been just as, may have been 1920, somewhere in that window. Okay. That's around the same time that I threw this together. I might have put this together before that existed. It's a good thought. Yeah, cool. I see this. Yeah, this is something we can incorporate. Definitely, it looks like they're pulling out specific projects and things for this. So it looks like we could mix in a lot of this stuff into strategies. So maybe we should do that. Maybe we should plan to use the master plan to flesh out some more of this. So yeah, so let's plan to do that. I'm also hoping it's just, if the planning commission has any, like 10,000 foot view type things that we think would be important to have for or is missing or lacking in this area from up here. So you wanna have thoughts about that? I think the master plan goes into a number of those, some of those, at least from an arts perspective. For being a capital city, it is amazing how, I mean, there is more recently from a public arts perspective, but for a long time, it's a city that's remarkably devoid of any public art. And this is in stark contrast to having worked in Berry City where there are granite monuments and granite statues and a lot of art that's built into Hope Cemetery and all these other things, but really there's very few large, for being the state capital monuments of any significance that were really erected here in Montpelier. So I think that's one of the reasons the public art commission was trying to get into getting more art into the downtown, to kind of start emulating a little bit of what Berry City's been doing, even with little things like bike racks with gargoyles and stuff like that. So just even little things, art in little places can make a difference in kind of livening space. Yeah, yeah, totally agree. And yeah, we discussed that before about it being a serious need. It's funny, I think the timeline went like, we were talking about the need for that and then the public arts committee started up and started working on it. Okay, well, Mike, what do you think about? Like, would you like us to flesh this out more and work on it? Or would you rather take the outline, take the master plan that exists and develop something based on that? I mean, I think right now, from my timing standpoint, I'm gonna be continuing to try to wrap up the community services chapter and then starting to lay out some of the land use stuff so we can start working on getting that chapter. And then obviously starting to work with the consultant once we've got a contract signed to start putting our city plan onto the web, which was what the contract is for, is to start building that out. And I think that's gonna take a lot of time, not to mention the city has two permits that have been appealed to environmental court, one of which is being appealed on making a determination that a number of aspects are unconstitutional. So I've had to pencil out a bunch of time, a lot of time to preparations towards going to court and getting deposed and all these other things to defend our zoning regulations against constitutional challenges. So my time, I don't have a lot of time right now to dedicate to working on the arts chapter, but it's something that certainly can be there if I've got some time, if I've got some windows of time, but I wanna stay focused on the key pieces, which is the community services, the land use and oh, utilities and facilities, which should be a pretty simple straightforward one. It's 90 plus percent done, I just need to meet with DPW to have them give their blessing, but other than that, it's done. Okay, that's good to know. Yeah, I didn't know that those things were even with you. I thought maybe some of them were with the other city committees still, but okay. So it sounds like community services and the other thing. Yeah, the community services, I'm meeting, I've already met with the cemetery committee, and they wanna work on it for another two more, or at least another meeting or two. They're gonna meet in July and maybe August to finalize it. And then I'm meeting with the rec committee and the senior center. So I've got three committees in them. Okay, so that one might take a little while, but you said utilities is mostly done. Utilities are mostly done. Okay, yeah. Good, okay, yeah, so I didn't realize that, yeah, that stuff was on your plate at this moment. Yeah, well, would it be helpful for you? I just don't, I don't wanna do work if it's not even helpful for you, but I don't mind putting more work into fleshing this out and maybe putting it into like the Google Docs spreadsheet. Would that be helpful or what, or you tell me what would be helpful? If you're working within this Word document, that's fine. I can get it into the Excel spreadsheet later. That doesn't take long to do once we've got it kind of fleshed out. Okay, well, just for the sake of time, I don't wanna take up any time with this. I wanna just bring it to your attention. It's saved with the other city plan stuff on the website. So if people can just, if you feel like it, if it's of interest, take a look at this outline, think about it, send me feedback and then I'll try to flesh this out more to be useful for Mike later. And I will get to reading the master plan and incorporating as much as I can out of that as well. So just send your feedback to me. I'll be working on it. If anyone else is interested in working with me on it, just let me know. We can do like a working group sub thing. We just have to meet in a group of three or less for open meeting law reasons. But we can just keep working on this on the side here and there and as we get through the core city plan chapters, we can then develop it out like the others. So if that sounds okay with everyone, I'll just move on from this, but please reach out, review it, give feedback. If no one has anything else on the arts chapter, I'll move on. Okay, so the last thing that we have on the agenda for tonight is about the shading provisions. I decided to throw that on there just because I don't wanna lose momentum. I think the last time we talked about this, if I recall, it seemed to make sense to people for us to work on our own proposal first and then work on any outreach related to it after. And so if we don't have city plan work coming up in the next meeting or two, I would like for us just to go ahead and make that a topic of discussion and come up with a plan that we wanna re-propose to city council. As a reminder for people, the options that we had talked about before, these are from Mike, what he had said to the city council before was like we could come up with an amendment that what we have before was simple, but I think they wanted more to it, they wanted something different. So we talked about limiting the type of development that it applies to, roofs, walls, that kind of thing we had talked about. I don't need to go through it all, because we've talked about it before recently, that there's a lot of moving parts and a lot of options. I'd like for us to go ahead and act on that soon. So I just wanted to put that out there so that people are thinking about it and so that they're ready to do that and to brush up on our options so that when we come back and talk about this, we'll be able to efficiently come up with a new approach that we think's best. Does anybody have anything to say about that plan? So I'll make just a follow-up to that comment that I made on the appeal. One of the pieces that has been appealed, so there was a project on a street and one of the unconstitutional claims is against the shading provisions. It's a bizarre case. They are, the people were not subject, so the neighbors want to move a structure. So property A wants to move a structure. Property B is their neighbor. Property B has appealed this to court and is upset that property A does not have to meet the shading requirements. And it's because they're a single family home and single family homes don't have to meet that requirement. So they've appealed, property B has appealed and claimed it's unconstitutional. So it's kind of weird because if they win the appeal, they basically deem the shading provisions unconstitutional and it doesn't apply anywhere in the city. So it doesn't, they don't actually win if they win. So it's kind of a weird appeal. We've pointed that out to them that that is the outcome if they win their appeal on the unconstitutional. So, and then from an interesting standpoint, on that as we did our homework, it turns out that this is very unique. Our shading rules are very unique, even in the entire country, because there's something called ancient lights, which has never been found to be constitutional in the United States. And basically ancient lights is kind of this idea of you have a right to the light to your property. And basically it's never been found to be a valid right. Now I'm not an attorney, but I've seen it on a number of cases and it's interesting that since then, somebody has pointed out that it's generally not constitutional. So it'll be very interesting to see if this even survives through this falls court hearing. And it would take us a lot of work. What is this right that is, that like, yeah, could you explain that again? So there's a legal theory called ancient lights. And I think what it comes down to is that you, it's like in Europe, there's I guess there's these certain rights and when they tried to apply them in America, they didn't stand up in court. And one of them is that you can't, you know, I'm entitled to the light that shines on my property and you can't therefore create shade. Or you're taking away some of my rights. And that has never held up as a right under American constitutional law. So it was interesting. And actually, you probably remember Kirby when we were going through the public hearing process to adopt the zoning, Jerry Tarrant showed up and gave a litany of complaints. I mean, I think four or five pages of them. And we just kind of, because he had so many of them that just kind of were there, this was actually one of the ones he complained about. And he said that this whole provision of shading isn't even constitutional under the ancient rights, ancient lights doctrine or something like that. And actually it's shown up now, we've found other references to it. And it'll be interesting to see when this goes to court, whether this whole provision is even constitutional. And it's being challenged ironically by somebody who wants to be protected. So, well, I just looked up this ancient lights. It's a property right that you have a right to the light that goes through your windows. How would our shading requirement interfere with someone's access to light? It's actually protecting it. It actually is protecting it. Except that they have appealed, and that's why we're all scratching our heads to try to understand why it's the neighbor that's appealing it. Because she's appealing it because she wants it to apply to this property. But we've pointed out the way these unconstitutional arguments work, appealing it won't actually get that person put in. Yeah. It simply rules that it's unconstitutional and therefore gets stripped from the zoning bylaws in its entirety and therefore nobody gets protected by the shading requirements. So that's one of the two claims. So one of the two unconstitutional claims I have to defend this fall. One is for the shading and the second one is for design review. So the second one is actually quite significant. We feel very comfortable I think and we'll see how it goes in the court process, but certainly I think I can safely say in conversations as we're developing our defense of our zoning, we feel very comfortable that our design review rules will withstand legal scrutiny and that they are constitutional. The shading requirements on the other hand, I don't know. It's just, we'll have to see. It's the design review rules themselves that are being questioned. The district boundary again, this is a property that's outside of the design review district, but they would like their neighbor to be in the design control district. So that way they have to meet the design control rules, but they're not in the design review rules. So if they win, again, they wouldn't put their neighbor into the design review boundary, but it would in fact, remove everybody else from the design review boundary. But again, this has been explained to their attorney and they are well aware that that's the rules and that's the appeal. So I get to prepare for court. So we'll see how those both fair, but again, I'm confident without getting into this, again, any ex parte that I'm confident in our design review rules will withstand legal challenge. Okay. Is it the environmental case? Taking the environmental... Oh, sorry. Yeah, I was just saying, it just takes an inordinate amount of my time that I shouldn't have to be dealing with, but I've probably already dropped the good 60 hours of work into preparing the fence stuff. So. That's unfortunate. I doubt it's changed. I mean, my experience in the environmental court from before is that it moves very slow. Things live there for a while. So I guess this could... It's been going on since last year. So we've just been going through all of the questions and rebuttals and motions of this and motions of that. And it's kind of everything's been dismissed, dismissed down to, I won't say it's down to the last, but the only pieces that involve us anymore is just down to whether these are constitutional. And this neighbor's project's been on hold the entire time? Yes. Yeah. That's not unexpected for a project that's under appeal. Well, thanks for that update, Mike. I don't know if I have anything more to say about zoning regulations. It doesn't sound like that's going to change anything for our reconsideration. I think, I mean, what we're doing is clearly not in response to the litigation. What we're doing is our own adjustment. So... I just wanted to make you aware that there is this effort going on in the background. So when it comes to making a decision of, let's say we come up with an idea and we want to go to city council. I might, if we were in September, advise that we wait until after the October hearing. I might be going to court either September or October. So we'll see. And at that point, yeah, we won't have a decision, but we might have an idea of where this is going. Because if it's going to be ruled unconstitutional, then I don't know how much effort we want to put into making that decision to the city council. If that happens, yeah, I think our recommendation would be just to take it off the books and leave it. Okay. Well, if we don't have city plan work to do, I'd still like to go ahead and have our recommendation ready for that, if that's okay with everybody. But hopefully we can get the utilities chapter and some other things on the agenda and move those forward. Okay, well, that's all I've got. Does anyone else have anything else before we adjourn? Do you want to do the minutes? Oh, right. Minutes from last time, right? Well, June 13th. Minutes from June 13th, because the 27th was not a forum. So we do have minutes, but we don't have to approve them. You're welcome to if you'd like to, but... I don't feel a need to. Okay, if everyone can take a look at the June 13th minutes before we let us know if there's any changes. The minutes mentioned NOAA from popular high school. Is that still happening, Mike? I invited him to the meeting, but I don't know if he's back from vacation yet. I believe, I had told him that the next council meeting, I think is July 20th. That'd be about right. A week from Wednesday. And so he could ask to be appointed. We have a seat, there's always an open seat for a student member, and we've invited him to apply as a student member. So I think he was gonna apply for that position. And if anybody has folks, I'm hoping the planning commission is, planning commission vacancy will also be that night. If we've got... Yeah, if you haven't already, everyone spread the word to interested people that you know, we wanna fill the seat, we wanna make sure there's good applicants. Okay, so everyone's had a moment with the minutes. Do we have a motion to approve the June 13th minutes? You do. Okay, we have a motion from Aaron, we have a second. Second. Second from Gabe. Does anybody need more time? Okay, those in favor of approving the June 13th minutes? Say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Okay, the minutes are approved, and we're good to adjourn. Everyone go enjoy the summer. We have a motion to adjourn. I'll move to adjourn. Motion from Ariane, do we have a second? Second. Second from Gabe. Okay, those in favor of adjournment? Say aye. Aye. Aye. Okay, we'll see you guys in a couple of weeks.


going back to censorship. So there are lots of different ways people use censorship. So for example, is something like self-censorship? Is that a valid concept? Yeah, I think it is. It can be used invalidly. It's valid. So again, if you go to the Danish cartoon crisis and the Danish newspaper is publishing these cartoons as a test, and it's a test, so they've heard from various people that there's an atmosphere of self-censorship that people won't write or publish, especially about Mohammed and depictions of Mohammed and so on. And if you ask, what is the reason why they won't do it? If it was just, look, a lot of people are going to tell us we're crazy. We're going to be socially ostracized and so on. So we're not going to pay that price. I don't regard that as self-censorship. It might be the reason they're not doing it, but I would not describe it as self-censorship.  And particularly, that's what's going to happen. And the government is not going to protect us. So we're not publishing these. That is self-censorship, and it's why censorship? Because it's, again, it's the government defaulting on its responsibility to protect your right to freedom of speech, and especially if it's an environment in which the government doesn't want. I mean, there's reasons to think in Europe. We don't want problems with Islam. So we're quite happy if people don't do this and why do they need to provoke and so on. So it's like, if they had the power to censor, they would stop people from doing this. And, oh, so we'll sort of turn a blind eye and not do very much to protect people, and that will make it go away. And then it becomes, yeah, this is akin to censorship. So self-censorship is not literally censorship, but there's something fundamentally similar about what is going on. What we need today, what I called a new intellectual, would be any man or woman who is willing to think. Meaning any man or woman who knows that man's life must be guided by reason, by the intellect, not by feelings, wishes, wins, or mystic revelations. Any man or woman who values his life and who does not want to give in to today's cult of despair, cynicism, and impotence, and does not intend to give up the world to the dark ages and to the role of the collectivist roads. All right, before we go on, reminder, please like the show. We've got 163 live listeners right now, 30 likes. That should be at least 100. I figure at least 100 of you actually like the show.  But at least the people who like it, you know, I want to see a thumbs up. There you go. Start liking it. I want to see that go to 100. All it takes is a click of a thing, whether you're looking at this. And you know the likes matter. It's not an issue of my ego. It's an issue of the algorithm. The more you like something, the more the algorithm likes it. So, you know, and if you don't like the show, give it a thumbs down. Let's see your actual views being reflected in the likes. But if you like it, don't just sit there, help get the show promoted. Of course, you should also share. And you can support the show at your own book show.com slash support on Patreon or subscribe star or locals and show your support for all for the work for the value. Hopefully you're receiving from this.  You'll know what shows are on when they're on. You'll get notified. Right? So, yes, like, share, subscribe, support, like, share, subscribe, support. There you go. Easy. Do one or all of those please.


I don't think I meet the height requirement to ride your emotional roller coaster. Who needs to hear that from you today?