All right, and we are live, but I'm gonna go play the On my end it showed us first and then you said okay, I'm gonna play the intro Yeah, I don't have it down pat guys. All right You're not an expert streamer rip. Well, hello everyone and welcome back to four of the minions the weekly show We talk about the Paragon remakes and and ethereal This week we've got some pretty interesting stuff from overprime some map updates and a lot of interesting little updates From ethereal pred done dinner tweet and then um after that we're gonna be talking about which heroes have not been implemented in Anyway, in these games and I did a poll for that. I'm your host the man goose join me always are my brothers and beards Jelly knees of the Mikey Jedi jelly. How you doing man? I Am fantastic man goose. I don't know why but I really wanted to like hear you say pred did a tweet in a southern accent, right? I don't need tweet man. Like yeah, no hundred percent.  Well, I know this week as far as at least the things we have to talk about It's a it's a little bit slim as far as the news But I'm really really really excited to dive into the poll and I know you're gonna go into it a little bit But again man the community popping off really showing up and interested in What's to come for these things and everybody in chat appreciate y'all being here and I'm excited man It's been a it's been a good week. So could you make a new emote man goose or these? New emotes I Did not make them though. I I I don't get to use them. Oh, do you know what I have to join to unlock?  The worst part is I've already joined and I still can't use them really that's because I'm on a brand account technically I Actually, I think I might be a brand account too. I don't know YouTube. All right. Well, let's go ahead and switch into the news Let's head into overprime So because they had probably the most news or the biggest news this week Um that to Kalari shorts just showing off Kalari's abilities again. These weren't posted in their discord I don't know why they're not posting those as like updates or announcements or anything in their discord but they did have to Do things showing off Clary's abilities, which if you don't know Clary's abilities and overprime are a bit different than they were in Paragon, especially her ultimate jelly.  Paragon's Kalari false Kalari Predecessors Kalari and overprimes Kalari. I wasn't planning on asking all that but it just hit me that she's in all She said all of them. Yep. Thanks man goose. I'm glad you put me on the spot here Yeah, I guess I'll start with a Paragon. Yeah, so it's like what's like what is it that like was key about Paragon? Kalari and then has there been major changes in what are they across the board to all three that might be easier way to explain it I mean, so Paragon Kalari I think the biggest thing that's reference for all these games is Paragon Kalari had two different ultimates She had a one that was like a shorter dash that did a whole bunch of damage in a short area And then she also had her not quite global but very very long-range teleport by the time it was all said and done That which is similar to what fault has in game that you can teleport to a target that you have vision on and The big thing was she actually had a passive that let her see low health targets for a long time and that I loved which was They you could see them through the map and then you have that all that teleport ultimate And it's just always it feels good for you feels bad for them when you just show up on them out of nowhere But she had her dagger. She had a single dagger that she threw that's in my say single because that's important later She has her double jump which was always super fun And then she has her invisibility and she can press a button and go invisible Rather go into the shadow plane and then proceed from there Faults version of Kalari has both ultimates one of them being a basic ability instead of an ultimate Which is the short-range dash that I mentioned that one is in fault. That is her E Ability her Q is her invisibility and her right-click is still the single dagger throw as she now has a regular passive of her double jump And that when she's invisible she does extra damage She is it's I believe it's called like inviscidate and predator are the two versions of the passive Is it like where she does extra damage when she's coming from being invisible? Is that what you're saying is it one of them is like for a short time after one of them is when she's unseen And then does damage for the first time. She does an extra bit of damage I believe and then the other one is Isolated damage if I remember correctly. Oh, it's been a while since I've played default Kalari, honestly or predecessor she has the Old the short-range dash as her ultimate. I believe trying to remember I've played predecessor to Kalari like twice But the big difference between predecessor Kalari and the others is that her right-click her dagger has two charges Instead of just a single throw and that's a big difference for her is that she's able to Kind of chain those together and they do slow on impact. So that's huge huge tool for Kalari The other big change with predecessor in mind and fault for that matter is the invisibility when you're when she is close to you She is then slightly revealed to you as well It's not a full invisibility like it was in Paragon, which many many many people hated Right and fun for you as Kalari unfun for everybody else. Sure, which is kind of just Kalari in a nutshell. Yeah, right? Double jump and they'd go in vase and disappear double daggers now for Fred all this all that kind of stuff the Overprime is drastically different than all the other games Her he is a very long-range dash That slows targets if she does land her dagger before she ease Before she dashes instead of a slow. It is now a stun or a route. I believe yeah route changed it It is a route. So she lands the dagger and then uses her dash It's a route for Q is still her invisibility and then her ultimate is just a flurry of daggers that stun the target right in front of her Instead of any kind of dash or any anything like that. So Kalari's Overprime Kalari is very very different from any of these other games Now which one was the most fun to play well most fun is Overprime Kalari by a long shot Oh, really by a long shot. I think she feels the most rewarding other versions of Kalari It's fun to just like appear out of invisibility and chuck a dagger in somebody's face and do all this other stuff But having to have the coordination of throw your dagger land it then use your e then use your ultimate She felt more like an all-in character that actually had to Play well rather than the other games where it's easy to just get in and get out She doesn't really have that kind of all-in commit assassin feel that she usually has And that's what my thoughts on Overprime Kalari was that they seem to have the changes that it made to her made her Just very all in like you can't just Hit somebody and run it's no more gorilla tactics. If you're gonna take somebody you better take them down Or you're not getting away. Yeah, they basically made her a burst assassin in Overprime Whereas in the others she's an assassin if she gets the right amount of damage and right amount of kills But she's more kind. She's almost like a weird like hybrid between assassin and bruiser. Sometimes it seems like So I just this is gonna be slightly off topic, but it was live on the video So I'm not sure if anyone else caught it, but we give man use a lot of times a hard time about Gameplay footage. I just want to say dude You're playing countess in mid lane and you did your dash on a minion And then you used your dash back or whatever the teleport back to avoid the meteor That the yeah, I just saw it's like well, that was a really good play for me I know this is not Kalari related But we give me goose a lot of times a hard a hard time about his gameplay But you're sitting here popping off on it on countess, and I just thought that was a really really good job I don't know if you did it on purpose when it looked like a hundred percent I called it out as I did it too. I was like watch this I'm gonna dash to this minion and then Redash to avoid the rock. I think I said those exact words as I did it, but it was cool I was just impressed. Sorry.  So I'll allow it. I'll allow it As far as and then as for more overprime updates Looking at their Trello It's so nice that they have this Trello that we can look at every week and all these spicy updates And some of these were actually pretty spicy So matchmaking and server selection got moved to fix the update rank mode Developments fixed an update. So they did say that they'll have ranked mode right off the rip So, yep, that's gonna be very exciting to a lot of people Profile system improvements new hero balance adjustments and penalty system improvements So that's a problem that they had quite a bit was hacking and overprime I think even more so than any of the other games I'm not sure why that is. Maybe it's just the anti-cheat software they were using or something. I don't know Yeah, I mean it could be that they're the region They're also reaching out to right that a lot of the time We do see a lot of those hacks and cheats coming from the eastern market rather than the western market And so because they have more eastern players, it's there's more development into hacks and cheats for overprime It's sophisticated caramelize cracks me up You always have some good choice words What's up stunt and I agree with his take to like ranked mode is probably the most exciting news to to those of us who want to You know put ourselves out there and actually try and make some climbs happen I'm very interested to see how they do it if it's going to allow for you know Like a solo duo queue or if it's going to allow for five stacking Which I think would be fun for us probably because we'll be able to get an actual five stack together But I feel bad for a community wise if you end up as a solo or a duo into a five stack You're obviously at a huge disadvantage not impossible to win But it probably a lot harder in most cases. So as much as I would love to play ranked with the boys I kind of hope that they still do it as a solo duo queue and And if they get enough player base do it like League of Legends Does have like a flex queue where you can have people play 5v5 And get more of that organized play but player base is more important And so for a healthy ranked I think what you know solo duo is probably the way to go and that was of all these things I mean obviously hero balance adjustments and and penalty systems and all that stuff is exciting just hearing them Sticking to the word that ranked mode is coming It's obviously something they're working on and again getting these trail of updates really makes it easy Yeah, I think another thing with that is the matchmaking and server selection update is Theoretically, hopefully they're adding some kind of system similar to what League does as well Then if there's a duo one team, there's another duo on the other team Right, if they're if you're in like normal play and you're five stacking It'll look to try and put you against a five stack first because we know that there were games during their last test We were five stacking and we were against a basically a team of solos It seemed like all hundred percent all of that kind of stuff, right? So hopefully that also is an improvement So even outside of ranks if they allow you to do five stacks Then they still are trying to put you against another five stack or as high a premade as they possibly can yeah Yeah, that was definitely a problem and they identified that as a problem So it's something that they wanted to solve so I Guaranteed we're going to see some sort of solution coming through but I think rank mode is even more exciting for the casual player because You won't have to go against those those ranked sweats and then However, I don't think it'll do anything about toxicity for from what I know about here's the storm is Quick matches even far more toxic than ranked when it doesn't matter. But anyway Yeah You won't go against teams that are taking seven minute orb primes and ending the game in eight and a half minutes casual anymore, so To answer a medkits question My favorite assassin is whatever jelly's playing so that I can play mid lane That's my favorite assassin That's fair That's fair I mean he didn't ask me but countess is my favorite assassin in the game I think countess is do look at that butt bro. Let's go and she's got and this game you're using on this one She's got the loosey hair going on. You know, yeah Be fair countess is like one of the only actual assassins in all these games I don't write just straight up burst assassin Yeah, I mean calari and over prime is but calari and other games is not so really like straight up burst assassin is Countess it's funny too because like uh because we were gone from Fault for so long after we played over prime and we went back I thought for sure you were gonna play calari again and and I remember you're like, oh no She's not she's not my favorite in this and I was like, what did she was so good? And I didn't know because I just didn't play her how much more of a You know facilitating assassin she was and why you enjoyed her so much more in over prime I cannot get into faults calari like I've played her several times right Put the time in to be decent at her and I just it never feels good To play both calari sometimes And that is a separate fault conversation. I think partly for that but But in general like that I loved the feel of calari's over prime at the at the bare or over prime's calari Um at the bare minimum crimson rage trying to jump ahead to when we are going to talk about the the add-ons Of champions we want to see we're not there yet crimson. Okay. We'll talk about that later I do also just really really really quickly I want to give a shout out to chlorox because he's a longtime supporter of the channel and He's thinking about starting his own streaming on youtube.  Yeah, that is true. It is on me What's up, joshua? I ordered the pizza. Therefore it is my responsibility now. Um, exactly Gotta make sure there's pineapple on it. Come on. You guys got anything else for uh over prime before we move on to Probably ethereal So I didn't think about it, but the ranked mode developments Um, I think I mean they always said that they were gonna have ranked mode on release I never realized that they didn't show it on trello until now So this to me is like the final telltale sign that like we're closer than we think Um, sure, there's there's adjustments to be made to the ranked system But they'll make probably some of those beforehand and then a lot of them after as players are getting into it But I still think it's exciting to see and like I said Telltale sign that we're we've got to be somewhere in this vicinity of release for them I mean, I have no like I have no qualms in saying this. I think it's gonna be scuffed out the gate Like I think it's going to be bad And and not not because I think that they are going to do anything inherently bad into themselves like dev wise I just think that whenever a new game comes out and and ranked is part of that equation The the cues are going to be just weird that everything I mean if you if you use overwatch 2 coming out for you to play as as a reference You're gonna have people who haven't touched the game before You're gonna have people who've been hard try hard sweats playing the game And they're gonna all be in the same lobbies Playing against each other because there's no there's no MMR. There's no read So everybody's gonna just be there.  So You bring up overwatch 2 but overwatch 1 on release their rank system was terrible Oh, yeah the point that you had silver players making getting into the highest ranks Just because they purposefully queued at 4 a.m When no one was on in their region as a livestock And then also and then went in there against solos ones and twos and just dominated the game So they've made their way all the way through the ranks Just because they there was no one to put them against and I'm sure we're gonna see stuff like that non-stop I've got a lot to say about overwatch, but this is the place for it. I guess I said it's not even 1.5. It's just 0.5 I also have some stuff we could We can skip it. We can go Let's go to the arrow They eat threel Ethnol That's the game. Okay. So let's hear good things about this game Updates for ethereal who made quite a few updates to their map and I'm gonna put jelly on the spot once again But I think he was probably Seeing that he saw that coming this time. I wasn't I was way more prepared for calari than this. Okay Don't worry. I'll cover I did a lot of studying on this map In last night and I'm ready. Okay So jelly walk us through the changes the the map changes the ambiance changes some of the sound changes for ethereal Yeah, so we just put out a post on our social media an hour and a half or so ago And it we'll go up on discord at a later point as well. So the Big changes that we've made here is just kind of overall gameplay improvements and some visual improvements here and there for the map A big one for the map is adding ramps to each lane So that non characters that can't fly or climb can have access to the verticality of the map And get above and make plays accordingly without needing to Use an ability or anything like that, right? It just opens up the map for more players more accessibility more characters the whole nine yards So super cool about that. We've updated our portal visual effects Before they looked okay, but they were really taxing There were a lot of particles to make them look good And the more we looked at it We kind of like trying to scale down those particles and it just didn't Have the same feel once we got to the point where it was really performant But still looked good So we decided to kind of revamp those and we've got the new portals You guys are seeing them on screen for all three lanes Being uh fire ice and void. So all of those I I personally love those but i'm a little biased to be honest Um But manguese, I know you said you really like those portals. Yes, I'd noticed them before I even knew That you made them exactly perfect. That's what I love to hear Um, I mean we've got a reworked area in void for like kind of adding more ambiance to it That you see there's like fireflies in the air and a little bit of water on the ground Um, and it kind of ambiance increased across the board So we've got like sounds of crickets as you're walking through some of the jungle area And we've got animals like birds flying around the map and things like that Like trying to kind of make it feel more like a place that exists and not just like yeah We stuck assets on a map and called it a day right and move moved on um And and we're of course adding more of that stuff as time goes on But it's finding the right way to do it without making it over the top or anything like that um In addition we've got let's see. I mean fire lane. I think has had the most extensive updates of all the lanes Fire lane the rocks are completely different The old rocks were really a problem with the reapers trying to climb up them that you could bounce off of them really easily In addition walking on top of them was really difficult and really like jittery as you're walking along because they were uneven So we completely updated the rocks to fix those. They're actually taller in the map So they're they obscure a little more vision from like sky slayers for instance But provide when you're on those ramps and you are walking across you've got that height So it's you're not just going to be seen somebody looking down the lane It's not just going to see you because the rock is half the screen height right now Now there's actually some elements to that that has to be played around with We've also added a kind of like cave that takes you up from the guardian portals all the way up into the lane itself Which is really nice in ice lane. You've been able to go from the guardian to the lane really easily Whereas in fire you kind of had to make this long meandering path all the way around and it just took forever So we provided a shortcut for that, but it's a one way so it's you can go and jump into the lane But you can't use the lane to jump into there and out So it's it's an interesting way to to kind of Fix that and provide some more traversal of the map that helps. I mean there's so many updates We've added footstep sound effects. We've got the lane redesigns and camp placements all over the place I mean the oh the towers. That's a big one. The towers have been completely redesigned Oh, yeah The last thing we've had for the community was the old stone towers that were on the old map And so these towers are completely different have been updated from the ground up And we love these and I mean the biggest thing which the keen-eyed that are watching this video will see And uh, is that we've removed one tower from each of the lanes Oh So originally in ethereal lane had three towers and then you had the inhibitor or the spire is what we call it And then you had the elder to kill so effectively had five objectives In one lane to take and it just prolonged these games out forever because that's so much and it didn't create much distance between The towers themselves. Basically you had a little teeny sliver of a gap between towers So there wasn't and it created a lot of safety for enemy players But also made it hard for allies to get in there and try and kind of box somebody in to make plays with So we removed a tower entirely and have created a lot more space with that and Aligned our game with more other mobas that we have the similar number of objectives in each lane to take So that's I mean that's been a big one. That's really helped balance things around it and kind of create some cool opportunities for teams I like that a lot plus the towers the towers before were Actually a little bit hard to distinguish from the rest of the environment because they weren't They just kind of melded in so that's really good to see Um, it seems like there's there's a different um, wyvern enclosure too at least for a fire wyvern Fire wyverns the same enclosure as last time Really, are you sure? I'm certain. Okay Maybe your last time. Maybe not my last time. I'm pretty sure that looked pretty different to me I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm not even sure where you're seeing that in this footage. I don't know Also, I'm very curious about what the garden um decoration in the middle of void lane is The the orb thing. Yeah Yeah, I mean, uh, it's it looks cool man. Goose come come on man So that's what it is. It's just a decoration. It doesn't do anything. Maybe I don't know.  It looks great from what I'm feeling still best lane Uh, in my opinion, I just I did the aesthetics of fire later. Just so fucking cool Uh, I I but I do think that the portal update does look I didn't realize that it was such a Attaxing thing But the ramps I think is probably because like that's obviously like a balance thing And so the fact that you guys are looking at balance issues as part of like I know you guys are doing testing every week and stuff like that too, but Um, I think that's going to be really really interesting I do think in like some of them and I know this is something that can be changed at some point But like it that because it's almost like the ramps stick out a little too much like they're a little bit like, um I don't know like they the eye Eye catches those way more aggressively than the other terrain because it doesn't have the same like breaks in it and You know cracks and stuff like that. It's a little bit more Smooth like, you know, so we're going over the ice one right now You see it's kind of like very linear the same way All the way up whereas the rest of the terrain is a lot more blocky and stuff So I think if we add in more texture to that that's just a nitpick by the way Uh, I think overall functions more important than Than aesthetic, um, but I do have a question for you because uh, this will be for like, you know The people who are going to be running on, um, you know, maybe lower machines and stuff like that with all the additions of like You said there's like birds flying around and and stuff like that Did you one notice much of a performance thing or two? Is that something that will be able to be like toggled off like similar to league how you can like turn off some of like The extras so that way you're still getting max performance So it's both, right? We've of course been watching as we add these things and as we do these things That the performance is very key to all of this, right? So for instance, like the portals the portals are effectively almost like a 100% increase in performance compared to the old Portals like from the amount that they take to Uh to generate right so that that vastly increases performance when you're looking at this portal Um, but as for everything when we're adding assets into the map performance is always top of mind making sure We're not killing performance by adding new things or too many assets or all that and it's it's a balancing act Right of trying to keep quality versus performance At all times but also we've made sure that adding this stuff is also able to be varied in the settings Right so foliage you can turn the foliage completely off which is a huge performance benefit But the map looks a little more bare right like so it's it's a lot of that stuff Yeah, the animals you can turn off the you a lot of these extra effects can be turned off or dumbed down Accordingly depending on what you're looking to To give for your game Fair enough Yeah, I think it looks great Personally, it's just so cool. I mean it's again, it's one of those things. It's just exciting to watch the development as it happens um And I never noticed how bright the cracks in the rocks were for where you can climb like when I was in game and it seems like I'm anything destroy or the destroy ones. Sorry the destroy ones. Yeah, that I didn't notice that before That's I but it's been a while since I've been in game And I think the new turrets look awesome. I'm a big fan of the new turrets I think they look really really cool and they're very distinct and I'm a big fan of the map change too to the Lowering the objectives like you mentioned for the lanes because there are when I was a tester And now this is a while ago games would go forever and a lot of it was just having to really brute force through all the Turrets and objectives to be able to get to an end game state And so I do think that that'll help speed things up. Have you guys noticed that already in testing? Awesome And it just creates more space to do things in right like a big thing a big problem for void especially In yeah, prior to that objective lowering was those towers were basically on the river or as close as possible because everything was You only had so much space you just squish everything in there Right, so then the safety of the lane is through the roof because then all if I'm Dante All I have to do is just roll backwards one time and I'm back in tower safety Sure So it's it creates space in the lane at least initially That then now you have these prolonged fights where you actually can chase somebody down to their tower Before they just get to safety for free or you have a sky slayer or reaper coming in from the jungles to provide a gank And they're not just instantly safe the second they notice you So it's it's definitely been really helpful to see all of that come through it with that with that change in particular So going to what xp85 is asking so we can expect release uh christmas Yeah, I can't say anything on that one It was pointed out to me it was pointed out to me this week that my beard has gone gray while Like literally has gone gray while waiting for for these games It really has You know what you should that's actually a good thing either you or somebody who's a fan of the channel should do like a time lapse of of bearded or of your beard as it's uh Changed over the last few years. I would say do a time lapse of his hair too, but Yeah Well, because you've got this channel for a lot longer than I thought you did I uh, I was fooling around on your channel This is again way off topic, but I was like, oh my gosh. I didn't realize you've been making content for as long as you have Coding exiles. Yeah Um, that's really cool Okay, so are we good on ethereal? I think so Well thorough. All right. Uh, let's move on to predecessor Uh, not much out of predecessor this week. Uh, all they did was a tweet Just reassuring the community that they're on track for early access this year. So, um, nothing Not huge news out of print, but at least it's something and um, it seemed like it was almost like a response Like someone like some of us said you're was like friends not coming out this year and they were like, ha We're still coming out early access this year. Like it was just random. Like it was okay. I'm not sure Thank thank you. Like I see I I I took a different I when I read it. I was like, wait, so were you not thinking you could come out this year? Was there somebody in the background saying oh guys, I don't know if we're gonna make it. Um, but no, I mean Yay, I guess it just seemed like It seemed like they were like, okay We haven't put out news for a little bit people are probably getting so that let's put a bit Let's give them a little reassuring thing When I when I saw it like the first thought was Exactly what I said about Richter's electrocute in the honest hero review is like I said electrocute is an ability to move Dylan I was like Pred did a tweet and then you move on because like it wasn't really that important or anything beneficial to us, especially since we track this shit. So so, um, Minimally, but uh, I guess somebody that isn't tracking it that close. This would be pretty big news for them My second part too was okay. We'll go ahead. Go ahead Beauty brings up a perfect thing though. The pred community ate it up. Yeah, I like neat responses are like, yeah, let's go It's like, did you guys did you not know this before? I'm confused like Like I feel like this is something we've known for like six months now Why are we freaking out about the same information over again? But I mean that's the pred community. They freak out over the same information over and over again So it's fine. But the second the second thing I thought when I saw it I was like, how's ruba going to defend this? on ftm Ruba, come on. Where are you? He's not even here to defend himself. Like I said, they just they've been very quiet. Um, they have and that's fine They're they're working on getting the game out. They just wanted let's be, you know, that they're still around it They're still working on it and everything's on track. So Better than nothing I guess it is better than nothing I mean, I know we give them a hard time because we want as much information, especially since we talk about it every week Uh, I just think they you know, the community as a whole whether you're a diehard pred fan or not Just you need to remember a lot of devs do this most most games are not putting out constant updates about what they're doing in the back behind the scenes and so It's it's totally understandable that they're trying to keep things under wraps to an extent and they release what they want to release When they want some kind of feedback or to keep the hype rolling Um, you know, I wish they gave more because I do think it's beneficial to them to to get community feedback on things You know, like the hero kits and stuff like that where they can take some of that feedback and be like, oh Or maybe adjust how they released it and re-explain things to give more clarity, but um, ultimately It is what it is. Mm-hmm Indeed Indeed All right, I think that's about all I had for bread unless you guys had anything else Nope No, all right We got nothing for fault this week and I don't want to just sit here and bash fault for a half an hour So let's move on to The poll so this poll was Out of the heroes that have not been represented in any way Uh, which one would you prefer to see next in uh in any of these games? Now This does exclude terra, but I think that brings something up That a lot of people don't seem to realize there's only five heroes left that haven't been represented in one of the games or another I think this is also a big eye-opener for people that You know, they stick with one game. They track any news that comes out about that one game and they and that's and that's it So when you see that so they they have no idea what's been shown by the other ones They have no idea that eggy and scorches are they're in fault They have no idea that like wraith and um And and sarahth have been shown in over prime, you know And uh, or they don't realize howitzer's in in a freaking um predecessor So well and op because we saw howitzer an op now too. Yeah, but i'm just a drongo drongo It is an predecessor not in any of the other games Um, so it's there's not that many heroes that have not been represented in some way shape or form If people just don't didn't seem to under to realize that Uh bearded why not terra because fuck terra bearded and and because specifically you said you've played terra before So we don't want to talk about her. No, I could only do four I could only do four for the poll so I had to cut one of them So I'll cut terra because nobody played terra only losers played terra I wouldn't say that she was a lot of people like terra, but Um, she was the last one to get added to the roster and not and people had stopped playing paragon By the time so to be fair to be fair to all the terra mains out there I do think terra beats out a lot of people these other four probably three of these other four characters Um in terms of like what would add the most dynamic gameplay to these games because like the hard one We've talked about it in the chat we had this week man goose um None of these games have like a hard tank like a really really hard tank A rampage is a health tank. Uh, so it's it's kind of iffy there Deal would be the closest one that we've talked about but he's been turned into a bruiser in a lot of these games Except for maybe but only if he's got his stacks, right? Like and and even then he's kind of bruisery too like terra was designed to be a tank through and through Right like anti cc, right? She just threw the through everything was designed to be this character And none of these games have that and I think that's vastly beneficial Especially as you go into like competitive play or ranked play having someone like that is super beneficial So you can do things with other character picks around the map That's the levy before your pull off forgot sinks even existed Terra I think was I dicked around with her just a little bit at the very very end of paragon's lifespan Um, I thought her q was a little underwhelming and they could have done a lot more with that. Um If you guys have ever played balona in smite She has a bit of a similar q with with her hammer where she spins once and then chops down But with hers the more enemies you hit with the initial spin the more damage that Second chop does they could have done that with terra and made her a lot more interesting. I think absolutely But I think they didn't they don't want her they wanted to have the ability to do something damage wise Without making her a bruiser. Mm-hmm because she just Everyone turns into a bruiser, right?  Like it's one of those things And era died a tank and thank god because we need more actual tanks in the game I I wonder though because the third person moba space is what it is like because in in like, you know league and um and Dota tanks are like a lot more like Given a lot more agency in a lot of ways like they're in there and by the community They're like appreciated a lot more and I and I don't get that same vibe From the third person moba space like it just feels like people just want to play things that can get kills And let's show up on you know a youtube highlight reel And and I wonder if that has has any play on like the decisions at least that paragon was making And now obviously all these other games are that they're not they weren't really focusing A lot on that until it was like, okay We don't have a tank and we need to put in a tank because we don't really have one and I would be interested to see if it actually still works Like especially like if you think about games like over prime where like it's very very fast paced You add in a tank into that mix like what does that really look like? And I think it would be fun That's the nail right there right is that most of these games have adapted to be a more fast Fast paced play style, right right in some capacities rather whether it's time to kill or just the actual speed of the game itself Right and tanks Can drastically alter That feeling in the game and I think paragon was scared of that for a long time because especially with their unsure of How the gameplay wanted to flow in general So they just made everyone a bruiser because then your game can stay the same way without Really changing but you still add in the cool tanky ish characters Right and but these I think the same problem goes into these other games I think over prime especially throwing a tank into over prime Granted the last version of over time that we've played Could shake up the entire game because I mean and nabash was kind of a tank in that regard And it did shake up the entire game. Oh, it changed the whole thing. Yeah, right It's ability to just stay alive forever made a huge difference and that that is what I'm really I want to see more of In these games is that that change in pace Because of a character selection or change in itemization because of a character selection and things like that I felt steel was a pretty good tank Yeah, I think he's you and I talked about that mangoos that the only real tank we had was steel But even the remakes have made steel A more of a bruiser on in that case as well then then even he was in paragon I mean the closest I don't fault he's far more successful in the jungler offline than he has as a support Well, it feels more like a disruptor too.  Uh Because I don't mind and it's it's already in one game, but I want to see it in the other games But uh, because I don't have as as much paragon background as you two do So I don't have as strong of opinions about the ones that were picked. Um But uh, so what were your guys's though because I think that'll be interesting to hear I think Aurora actually I'm with the community on this one. Um I know they're I'm going to read through some of the comments that were left I know some people didn't think that Aurora really Added a lot. Um, I think just her ice wall added quite a bit to the third person mobile experience Because you could block people's block off people's escapes in interesting ways And um, it was it was it could also be used as an engage. It could transport the your your team I mean Gideon could do the same thing as Aurora really but Gideon can't block people off And I think just just that ability and then her ice clone as well Whenever you're wrapping a corner and I'll say this right now a medkit is in chat right now Uh, I'm I recorded with a medkit and jpi and we talked about the heroes that haven't been specifically added to predecessor yet We went in alphabetical order So Aurora was first and we talked and we discussed Aurora and um one of the things you could do with her with that Ice clone is as you're wrapping a corner you pop the ice clone. Not only are you Jumping forward, but you're leaving them an obstacle that they can't get around unless they attack it or or weave around it So there's there's a lot of possibilities that Aurora affects The actual terrain, which is I think what you need for a third person moment to be successful. So I want to see your I I think that Aurora is fun, right? But I I do agree with that comment You were kind of referencing I guess I'll read it since we're both going to talk about it Everyone voting this is from uh kooky coachewer Um, everyone voting for Aurora is wrong yin adds a melee carry Wukong adds a balance test for the developers and zinx adds a sustain mage All the ice queen does is an area stun. There's nothing new there to test the waters Which I agree with a lot of what he said there just not with the aurora part aside Aside from the ice wall though, I do kind of agree with him, right like aurora Her ice clone is cool But it's not really anything new to test the waters with that that really pushes something in in any of these games The but the ice wall is the ice wall is the only thing I don't have an argument for I think that ability's fantastic Could be great in all of these games No question there Um, I but I have been saying this for a long time. I as much as I hated wukong in paragon I'm really excited to see wukong and I want wukong in one of these games To see what they do with him because he was one of the I think he was the only one that can really be classified as a stance switcher in paragon And that adds a whole other level of gameplay Because you effectively are creating two to three heroes in one go by having these different stances Right if a character wants to go more about the mobility stance, right? That's a different type of gameplay if that character wants to go more about the damage stance That's a different type of gameplay right that creates a huge balance test for developers But also a huge variety for both wukong players and people playing against wukong That create a lot of different situations to put players in which is where I think they these games can really benefit The ice wall from aurora is yep. We're blocked off or yep. She trapped me in but wukong adds Dozens more in my head just throwing out a random figure right of different variations of gameplay that can create excitement Just by having him added to the game Assuming they keep the stance switching aspect of wukong What about you jedi you brought this Well, I do want to touch this of the comments I mean there was a lot of really really good comments and I know we can only cherry pick some of them, right? But like uh, I kind of I I liked this comment the most out of all of them because I thought it was the most Looking at things from a dev perspective not just so much like I have nostalgia And I want to play said champion which I think is fair to do like you want to just play your favorite champion That's fine. Um, so looking at it from that perspective. I found myself going like I didn't even really kind of think about that like, you know Like wukong absolutely is probably one of the ones it seems to like have the most Reaction whenever that name gets brought up. Um, and for a good reason, right? Like it was either broken or you know, he got goomba stomped or whatever It was always some kind of weird thing and I I think that that adds A really good argument into this and I and I Of the ones that were picked. I was a zinx fan. I just thought that it, you know The sustained mage sounds like a lot of fun. Um now great. This is also assuming They keep them fairly the same as they were in paragon, but um For my personal pick, I just want to see eggy and over prime I want to see what they would do with eggy I eggy and fault is a lot of fun And I and I and I thought that fault did a really really good job of integrating him into their champion pool He was one of my favorite picks when I wasn't, you know Try harding and playing gideon because I almost always played gideon if we were actually trying to win win games, but uh, I feel like Yeah, eggy would be super fun to see in in an over prime And I'm sure pred would do a really good job, but I didn't get to play pred So I'm not sure how they would integrate him. Um, but I feel like over prime I don't know what they would do, but I feel like they would make something about his Kit super crazy and fun, uh, and and I would just love to see it. I just think it would be really cool Um, otherwise, I would agree with zinx aurora. She was okay for me. I didn't really have a strong opinion one way or the other I also didn't probably see her get played at a high level A lot of times that the few times that I can remember off the top of my head that I saw aurora She just kind of was like Yeah, it just seemed like it was it just didn't seem like it was But uh, I do agree with mangas is the aspect of like adding in more Terrain environment or changes in adding in height and adding in more play because that's when you're playing third person Mobile it's like you're you're down in in the nitty gritty. So anything that adds Verticality or changes your environment that you're in it's not like in your top down Like, you know what I mean when an anivia pops up her wall Well, of course stops your ability to move in that direction It doesn't change a lot of like how you view the game You still see the game the exact same way whereas with aurora it could change Your whole thing. Do you miss a skill shot now?  I don't know it just In an isometric way, but you can still see what's going on on the other side of that wall when aurora was you off You don't know if the enemy team's waiting for that wall to drop and then jump on you or what so Um, some of the comments too. We've got surge ben Um, I mean yen in paragon, but I think aurora would bring more depth to the battlefield Which is something that needs to be built on and I really like to see that like Yeah, he's a yen fan, but he is identified or he or she I don't know has identified that um, you know aurora fills a niche that isn't quite there. However, I think you know, I think all of these characters will be Amazing to see in any of these games, but Yeah, whoever picked these four to choose from for the community really nailed it Well, I didn't really the the the developers picked them. Devs have picked four. Yeah. I didn't pick these I do agree. I think each of these heroes bring something different to the game Yeah, zinc's probably being the least of that But but I think each one does and it makes sense at that point, right? These are probably some of the most Game altering in terms of balance and development and all of that abilities from the from paragon Right that are the harder ones theoretically to bring into the game makes sense why they've been pushed off so far He surge ben is a he he just uh There you go. Can't be assuming genders out here, man. You can't do that dude. It's 20s way too. You better be careful Um, let's see another one. Uh, 1d. Uh, cardinas Zinx was my favorite among these too bad. They never really found a good way to keep her balanced I really do hope one of these remakes ends up doing her justice and again, it's can't Will they be able to balance these heroes because zinc's was apparently just extremely weak when released and then She's got like way overpowered.  Um, But if you did, yeah, the ricochet stun though, holy shit, that was a really cool thing That was the thing that I think was the hardest thing to balance about zinc's Was the ricochet stun was just beyond powerful In late game teamfights, right? You get a full teamfight breakout and you have any kind of large cc on your team And she just ricochet stuns and just large cc Whoever it was that she that she hit with it It doesn't matter right like it just is over and I think I would love I mean, I would love to see a balanced version of ricochet stun exist in one of these games But if they can't if they don't feel like they can make that balanced Turn it into a silence Turn it into that it ricochets a silence along the enemy team so they can at least still play the game They can still maneuver they can still do things but their abilities are down for a while And that I think could add a lot of diversity to these games as well.  Yeah And if they one of these games adds ricochet silence into the game, I'm here by claiming 10 percent. Thank you There he goes there he goes Oh, no zinx was a lot of fun for me. Um That zinx was also kind of highlighted the the the various problems with paragon though is Whenever they switched to the card gym system, there was a certain card I forget exactly what it did something to do with mana and health manipulation, which was what zinx was all about If you did not have that card on zinx You could not play zinx You just had to have that card and so you had to have gotten lucky enough To have unlocked that card. So that kind of sucked that sort of highlighted the problem with paragon towards the end Um, let's see another one Alan mosa picked this one, uh, because it kind of highlighted a lot what a lot of people felt about wukong I'm only voting for wukong to see what people's ideas are for fixing him without making him useless A lot of people a lot of people in the comments and uh jelly even mentioned it too. He's he's a he's a balance check He's a Implementation check to see if they can actually make that work.  I appreciated Anna, Henrietta side cheek queen. Obviously. Yep. Obviously And then uh, you already read the one from my cookie culture Then Nico zinx. I haven't played paragon, but from her kit I could already say she was a balancing nightmare Still, I don't think I've seen a ranged tanky hero with focus on balancing aggression and conservation And yes, I do realize that vladimir exists in league, but zinx took the concept to 11. She really did Uh, I I will so well that to me like so one of the things that we talked about It was not maybe this last ftm But the ftm before that was that I really want to see like more diversity in the off lane That other other than just like, you know, tangy boys or bruisery boys beating the shit out of each other for 30 minutes Um, and I can see um, and this is going to lead to a question that I have for you guys but I can see like, you know one of these Studios putting zinx and trying to design her to be more of an off-laner or you know something along those lines where she can Be like a vladimir top, you know what I mean like vladimir top was no He's maybe not as much of a thing now But he still can work in certain matchups go into the top lane and absolutely Just destroy Those beefy boys because there's just not they have no outplay for him. He's you know, uncankable. He has infinite sustain He's a manless champion, you know what I mean? And so I know zinx is not that but I would be really really interested to see a ranged And whether it's ap or ad but champion they can get that is designed specifically for the off-lane role to be like The the anti you know of the of the well the big the tanky boys if you will or the beefy boys I know you weren't as experienced with zinx, but she's exactly that she's exactly what you were talking about She was nice.  It didn't even matter if there was a tower there. You just focus up there Yeah, she's just kind of like a drag under the tower. Yeah It's there and just lets you expend on her and she does nothing to her Expend all right So well Because I think we're out of the the the community comments, but of the four that were picked I'm curious because again, you guys are way more uh, you know Experienced with these guys Which of the four or if you want to discuss all four, would you think that each studio could enact the best? Like which one Hong and overprime would go hand in hand for a bunch of reasons one I think over primes gameplay from a grant granted again from the last test Right, there have been a lot of changes since that last test that could Totally throw this off But the gameplay fits what wukong was in paragon Right that kind of really fast-paced go in there do a bunch of stuff Right wukong fits that really really well in addition to being a eastern company Wukong is also a very eastern idea So there's a lot of like parallels in them bringing on wukong sooner than later And honestly overprime has kind of been doing that with their heroes of like who do we need? That let's put those people in very quickly And then now let's go out and seek what the other games don't have and who the most most controversial people From those games are I would not be surprised to hear that the next two heroes that are added Are aurora and wukong to over like those two just Instantaneously, I could definitely see being added to overprime in the near future With that in mind Is there anything specific that you would say to like the overprime dev team if they were listening to you that you would want them to either Change or adjust or keep the same about wukong. So this is going to be controversial. Okay Uh, I think one million hairs should stay the same. What? Yep, I do. I want them to balance around one million hairs. I don't want them to balance around the rest of his kit I think that that ability was really unique and created Basically it created a pinball zone of against wukong And I think if you can keep that intact you will have an ability that none of these other games have Right if you are able to Put that in your game balance it perfectly Right balance the kit around that where that he maybe he's terrible until he hits level six But when he hits level six now wukong's online now he's gonna do that, right? So I think that's I I think he should be balanced around one million hairs. No question Well, I think it's called 84,000 hairs actually whatever Well, I think 84,000 hairs In a paradigm it was a million The only thing they really need to change I think is make it do ability damage instead of basic damage because that's what made him shred towers Because the towers take way less Damage from ability based attacks. So I think that's just the only change the epic ever needed to make to him And they just never did it. It's just weird What it made him way more about I think if he was honestly if he was a ability power character Would have made more sense in general. Yeah in terms of his balance I maybe in terms of like Lower wise it doesn't make a ton of sense because he's not really using magic necessarily But I think that would have balanced him way better Just across the board. I think for predecessor. I would most like to see aurora at an x for them um I think they could benefit from her the most out of all the games And I think out of all the games They're so focused on the beauty and the animations and that's what aurora was all about Really solid design really cool animations And I think pred A majesty is could do a much better job with her than anybody else So if I if I see aurora in any of these games, I'll want to see her in pred next So same question. We need a new 4k version of her side cheek poster. Yeah, we do We do Uh, same question that Ming is like would you would if you were talking to the dev team Would you keep the kit exactly how it was in paragon or would you make changes add-ons? What what if you could add advice or if you have a thought what would that be for her kit? I think keep her the same. Um You could just there's a lot of tuning knobs there that you can use for her Um, I think she was a fairly high skill hero because it was not easy to catch people in her in her ice circle Her uh in hooker frost as I used to call it. I think it's the actual the actual name was whore frost but um I think She's just a lot of cool things that she could do. I would keep her kit the same I just don't know what passive I would give her we discussed that When I said I was talking with a mid kit and jpi Uh, I think a cool passive would be for her to give just In thematically will be just that 5% general slow in her area not like a huge area Maybe like an 800 unit area And then that could be her tuning knob if she's overpowered You know turn it down to 3% if she's underpowered turn it up to 7% And um, that would make it a lot easier for you to hit the hooker frost. Um It just I don't think it would be you know thematically usually cold is associated with slows. So yeah Yeah interesting And then jelly, what would you do for yin? In which game would you want him in? Yin's rough. Um, I I really like yin as a character. I think she's fantastic And I think she brings a lot to the table. I think in terms of which game she belongs best into right now I'd probably have to say predecessor purely because the projectiles that are in predecessor are bigger than they are in a lot of these other games Um, and so it's more important to have the anti projectile melee carry in the game Then it would be for overprime necessarily Overprime has a couple characters that she would be cool against but it wouldn't be like a Systemic change to have yin in the game And I think where predecessor it would be systemic that you'd have you'd You'd have to find a way to balance your entire game Around that that idea that she can stop or reflect projectiles and create interesting opportunities with that That makes the game more fun instead of just oh, she's only good in this one match up Or she's completely and totally overpowered Plus she was she was she was a fucking revenant killer. She was a destroyer of revenant like yeah, I loved playing against a revenant when I was Yes Exactly Absolutely But I think yin fits equally in overprime or predecessor for real. Um, I think both of them fault Fault I think just has more um because of like grim and um That I think they just have more ADCs than the other ones kind of do the other For predator, especially predecessor the ADCs all seem fairly generic to me. Uh, they don't do anything But I mean, I don't know if that's really hard. The only one that seems interesting But he's wrong go Like it's That's that's a hard topic for me because I just find ADCs as a whole to be uninteresting like You shoot people like they all that's their main thing is to just shoot people with basic attacks Um, you know revenants somewhat interesting because he can also be ap, but I don't know. It's just weird Yin is different though. She's she's wait like yeah, you still have to hit people with basic attacks But you have to decide when you're going to extend the range of that basic attack Or when you're just going to go with her medium range And then she also has that that fun ability to that kind of adds a little bit of verticality to her kit Because she could last lash on and do her her flip kick off of allies So like if rampage is jumping over a wall and you need an escape You'll lash kick the rampage and you're out of there too And that or or with an engage if a deckers jumping into the prime pit Yin can come right along for the ride. I think that's really cool. And then her um Her ultimate the the big wind tunnel thing that would slow people and trap projectiles I think that would be really cool in any of the games I think yin would be yin is probably right behind aurora for me as far as who needs to be added into these games Fairly soon, and it's not even four. I mean, it's definitely for the reflect Yes, but I think there's a lot more to her kit. She brings more to the game than just her reflect. Yes, 100% Um, so to continue on with zinx Uh, I don't think any of these games need zinx By any stretch of the imagination I love zinx don't get me wrong. I love zinx great character This is nothing. She doesn't feel a niche that she doesn't feel a niche right now It's okay Then is there anything about her to keep her identities similar to what we're familiar with in paragon or you guys are familiar in paragon Is there something that can be changed or adjusted that would make her viable for these games and and worthy of putting into the roster So I said potentially make this change for a balance reason, but I think it's valuable And it would give her a place in a lot of these games make her stun a silence Mmm Her ricochet stun if you made that a ricochet silence That would actually give her a position as kind of like the anti mage anti castor Position in these games that nobody really has right bellica's kind of the closest you have to that with her drone Depending on which game you're playing Sure, but even then it's it's not quite the same thing And it's a little bit closer full fledged a you don't get to cast for a minute Right, and I think that we could bring her Into a position in these games. Otherwise, she's just kind of samey to a lot of these other characters This is gonna sound okay. Go ahead my bed Well, just real quick because I don't know if it'll lead into your point But like you guys mentioned that she wasn't really much of a damage dealer Is there a place in which they kind of like amp her up a little bit to be able to be a bit more? You know damage focus and not just somebody who's kind of stalling out games or or you know holding objectives or whatever Well, that's the thing with her if you did want once they fixed her and you could use kitty claws You could shoot, you know more than twice without using all your mana She actually what did deal a lot of damage, but it was it was a give and take as was said in the comments She you had to work on that conservation of your mana in order to be survivable So she could deal damage in the right situations What I would like to see them do with her Especially for predecessor because predecessor does not shy away from making kits that we're like, whoa What the fuck, you know, like that that seems overpowered I think they go that route with the zinx make her a swiss army knife make kitty claws instead of Doing a damage over time make it apply trauma or an anti heal up Or should I say a bad medicine which never hardly ever did anything make that sap mana Like it didn't have a silence to just make her a swiss army knife that can do anything It just I think that would be fun Yeah, as long as she has the mana for it Part of the problem with zinxes. She's basically a support that they put into the off lane Right, like it was kind of this weird But she was terrible at support compared to the compared to the other supports But then she wasn't just really she wasn't really effective in the off late Like it was just this weird She was put in this weird spot with her kit design and the the numbers they gave her And so I think that's just makes her in a weird spot for all of these games in general I could see that being why she's at a 7% right like it What she doesn't bring anything to anything other than a I Done in a silence at this point right like it's She doesn't go on a stage that isn't filled Yep So the fort sounds like I mean Does she would need the biggest adjustments to be viable in a current game whereas Aurora sounds like she maybe doesn't need anything I don't think it's a viability right. Yeah, she would be viable in these games. Yes Okay, just doesn't bring anything new to them that makes the game exciting in any different way than the rest Yeah, I think she would be successful even with her old kit if you put her in into these games She's just not going to be any more successful than grogson off lane or like, um The subrog off lane something like that like she was she was a very tanky, but she had some range. I don't know She just she's she's not going to fill a niche that isn't already there But yes, I think she would be very viable in any of the games Nice A zinc support rework would be cool from tana devil. I think that would be cool as well I'm kind of like to see that I think we've been seeing that like phase being put more into a mid lane position with a lot of these games right fault kind of tried to make her kind of either more of a like a Casting mage Right in the support lane, but even like over prime. We saw that she was being played in mid lane some a little bit I think we could definitely see a zinx that could flex maybe an off lane maybe a support depending on itemization requirements or or abilities there What if so I Frieza's kind of bringing up something that I'm what if what her um Kitty claw For at the cost of mana was similar to like a timo Blind no get rid of blinds. I I hate blinds in these games Uh phase is the only one with a blind in an over prime is the only one that's implemented in any kind of good way Blinds are terrible They're very frustrating to play against. Yep And they actually don't do much in competitive play Well, I mean I would see I would say in in over prime. It made a huge difference. It was I mean that was Fight changing when when you would get pulled blinded and so you I mean depending on on how you know, what was going on You could be in Over all over her, you know, it was wild like I've never played a game where that would happen Like where you're just like I literally can't see anything. I can't do any If I press it you know Over prime because there are plenty of times that I got blinded by a phase and it didn't make a difference Oh, really? That's where I think over primes phase is very very different and better if you're going to implement a blind This is how you do it. It's not go to a black screen It makes everything blurry and opaque at least I can do something with reasonable Right, at least if I see a flash of vfx from a direction I'll be like I can point down there and aim at it at least I have options Right, it's not just a straight up like yet screw you. You don't get to see anything You can be running into a wall for all you know, that's terrible So what if the blind was something more like where it reduces the amount you can see Instead of like doing a blur effect like you do it's like I'm trying to think in league when you get uh smoke screened by graves You know how like just reduces your vision down to like a very tiny pool I think it's terrible. Do you think that's a bad idea? I think emo and graves are both terrible for that Quinn is the only one that I think is different And Quinn's blind is different What what makes her it hurts so much more different It does the same thing her e when it hits it does an aoe but blinds you can't attack and do You can't do anything same thing as is timos. No timos and quinn's blinds are two different things Okay I'm gonna need you explain how then because I don't I don't know that you can't hit anything at all You can see just fine, but you cannot basic attack anything Quinn's you can basic attack, but it's in an area around you They're completely different. It reduces your vision. Right. Okay. I got you At least you can do something and that's the key difference is it's not it's not something that just is anti You don't get to do anything in the game anymore. I mean silence does that same thing and you're wanting to put that on her Ability pool silence only stops abilities. You can still do something. Yeah, you can move you can basic attack. Okay I don't mean I'm just throwing ideas out there. Don't get angry at me. Jeez, bro I'm just saying that there is a definitive. It's so feisty, man. Where the heck are you?  What the heck? I was brought up earlier in chat. Um, I think dapper brought it up With um with mark knock having his rockets that would again yin would be obliterate v2. Yeah Me and well and his grenades too, like if he's sitting there in the back and just you know using his grenade launchers um, yeah, I don't know man. I I think it could be fun. So, um What do you guys think that each game? Really needs a niche filled that's not currently being filled and it doesn't have to be by one of these champions If they take a champion that's already out and then put it into the game Because I know we still have a little bit more time to kill until we get some more questions from the audience But uh, what would you guys add in to one of the games that needs a niche filled? Whether that's more ad carry is more supports like I know that over prime We kind of felt like they needed more supports during the play test Ideas are uh mangers. I'll let you go first Um, I think pred needs a burst assassin. They don't have counters yet Um, and that's something that they are lacking right now Uh calari sort of fills that role, but not really Nothing nowhere near like you would get with uh With countess and then um, I think they're all also Well fault's not liking it, but I think uh morguech is another one just that dot damage hero that poison hero Nobody really has that right now. I would like to see that implemented. Um fault's only one that has it with morguech And I think fault has done an excellent job with morguech Um, she no longer has that long range hive that she used to throw now It's a you call it spitting.  There's there's a there's a few niches that could be filled. I think uh aurora being that being able to abuse terrain as a niche that needs to be Implemented in any third person mobile for it to be a true third person experience Mm-hmm. I would agree. I think that Creation of any kind is valuable, right? Um, whether it be creation of turrets like a yin scorch creation of walls creation of a lot of stuff Basically the only one that has any kind of creation ability is fault right now um Not sponsored don't smoke is bad for you not encouraged Yeah, man used sheesh No, but find it hilarious that levy kissed it I Think that's a big one, right? Any um But I would agree. I think moragesh Dot damage in general. I think is is a cool thing to have assuming it's applied in moderation Right, it's not just you're dotted to death. Congrats, right? Like, um, I think but there's a lot There's a lot there that can be done I think burst assassins in general is something paragon lacked diversity in burst assassins because it was really just kind of countless and then kalari depending on the patch um And but I think that's something that's sorely missing We've got really good diversity of play style in 80 carries We've got diversity of play style in mid lane diversity of play style in the jungle depending on who you play and off lane So I think then you're trying to fill out more of the niche roles And burst assassins is one that's sorely lacking. Yeah I think I'd take the what you guys were talking about earlier the counterpoint to the burst assassin would be the Super beefy tank like I think that adding in a in a major tank That the thing is like and I think league is a really good to point at this And I know man goose hasn't played a lot of league, but there's some tanks in league Like I think right now the current iteration of like malchai for example So fun to play like and he adds in a lot of tankiness. He has like, you know good cc There's a lot of of really cool opportunities for him as a as a tank in the current version of league of legends And I think that these third person mobas if they were to either Find tune some of the ones that are that could potentially be more tanky Like, you know, um, the other games haven't added in uh, graystone, right? But maybe they make him a bit more of a tanky, you know guy instead of being the garen, you know He's more of a tank. Um, I could see that being viable I just I think getting in a true tank that's fun to play That's the big thing is because no one will play a tank if they're boring as shit So you have to make a fun tank and I would argue a fun tank that can be flexed more in either I wouldn't want them flex in two roles either jungle support Support offline offline jungle or something like that. Like I don't think it I would be better if they could be in two roles. Um, because then it gives more opportunity to be picked in a lobby versus It only gets played played in offline or it only gets played in jungle. I know, um Yeah, that's it.  I'll just leave it at that There's one side point that I just realized that I'm meant to bring it off much much earlier But with missing niches in the different games that may give us a clue as to What Adele will do for over prime and what hunters will do for predecessor Sure Because they can design that hero specifically to fill a niche But is that something they want to do because we saw Paragon do that to try and balance their game by designing these heroes to balance their game And it didn't really work out for them. Um I think part of it is those hero implementations were always six months too late Right like it helped that way right that they're like, okay projectiles are a problem and in three months yin comes out It's like wait what like that's not No, we need yin now. We don't need yin in three months and so it's It's hard right to to do it that way It's it's basically hoping that that meta still exists by the time the hero comes out And that is a crapshoot at best to hope that that's what's gonna be what happens Right, but I think I think there's also value in creating meta defining Heroes that you the meta will shift because of this. It's not a counter to the meta by putting this character in Because then it creates new opportunities for things to change Right like yin was an answer to the projectile meta, but yin just as easily defined the meta at the same time Or could define the meta at the same time if they pushed her in the right directions and flexed her in certain ways So I think there's value in a lot of ways with that Adele, I hope Adele has a taunt. I want a taunt so bad in one of these games It's going to be fantastic and I did see that they added a taunt Yep, exactly I agree with that a taunting would be I think would be really really cool of valuable I mean a lot of this too like goes back to itemization and I do think that You know, we haven't heard a lot about predecessors itemization like and what they're going to do I know in the playtest you guys had some pretty strong opinions about it and overprime It was kind of lacking but it seems like they're putting in a lot of you know time In to to make those a little bit better So I know a lot of these changes and a lot of these champions will depend a lot on what kind of itemization we're looking at Um, and I know we give fault a pretty hard time But for the fact that they've had been out for two years their items have gotten pretty in line I mean, they're not the most exciting items a lot of times. They kind of just Here's damage or here's damage reduction You know what I mean or here's more mana sustain or something like that, which is fine It's it's serviceable. Um, but for these other two teams that are going to be coming out It'll be interesting to see how these Current iterations of champions and the ones that are going to be released And the items that kind of help facilitate that more because like even predecessors are having more blinks Wukong with a free blink and all the others. I mean You know, there's some there's some there's some real, uh, interesting stuff. Um, and uh, yeah, I don't know I carry I think several gives a tank but it will depending on which several you play You have that his stacks take so long to come online And the game ends before he's really a true tank I think in overprime, they did a really good job of getting him A little bit, but even still just because the games were still ending it Like you know, granted this was in the playtest where things were ending super fast There was just no reason to pick him when you were ending the game at 10 minutes There's no tank is going to be tanky at 10 minutes. So, uh, it's not really fair to say how tanky severog will be in overprime because He did get his stacks a lot faster than he did in in fault or what I could remember from paragon Cat is asking why isn't wukong the top and I would just like to say cat is because you didn't vote specifically It was a butterfly effect. If you would have voted for wukong that butterfly effect would have come into play Big call out. I'm just kidding Oh, see I'm with sophisticated carrot here 100% free blink needs to go I think that that is gonna add some really unforeseen consequences as we get more of these heroes in the game Like you said with wukong like with a lot of these things Or it's just gonna turn into a mood point that you're just gonna both blink like I talked about last week And it won't mean anything either way What about adding in a poppy style anti movement like her remember she throws up her little ring around her I don't know what ability. I think it's their e and it's oh, it's a w. Okay, perfect. So it stops gnashing that would be kind of cool Because that's one of the counters that they at when they did her Adjustment right from old poppy to new poppy was that exact thing she with all the dashes now that in game That's why you see her in pro in pro play because she's just Your dashes mean nothing to us now and i'm gonna stun you into a wall and you're just gonna die like you know So I agree that like the dash is probably the biggest thing I think that pred is gonna have to try and balance around the fact that they just give free blinks. It's just It's gonna be mayhem. I think with it just it's so nuts Like because you guys said yin can follow somebody right with her can she then now follow Some of these crazy blinks and I mean you're gonna have just It that's gonna be wild How do you how do you track all that in a third person mobile? You can't you just don't you don't have the it's that's wild I don't know wild I'm not saying get rid of it. I just think it's going to be a nightmare to consistently balance around And I and I mean predecessors maybe the team's already got to figure it out I don't know. We'll just have to trust them at some point and then see what it's like once the game comes out But it does seem like a balanced nightmare when you think about some of these champions having A free blink. I mean just ganks alone It's just I don't know whatever. Maybe that'll be next week's poll if we don't get a whole bunch of news is Free blinks should they exist? Yes or no? No And we're continuing the game of predecessor and over prime chicken where we're waiting for one of them to announce So the other one can announce Um, does anybody have any questions before we start wrapping things up? Hennessy wants to know what the pie chart is for Oh, it's uh community voted on the heroes that have not been implemented in any way whatsoever Between all the different games, which one would we like the community like to see added and uh It was actually terra is actually Involved is aurora wukong yin and zinx and terra are the only the only remaining five that we haven't seen Represented in some way between the three games Which is yeah, I I want to go back to that. I think that's wild And Dr. Pepper I think it's wild that we're down to five characters that have not been implemented into any of these games. Yeah, that is kind of crazy That's absolutely crazy I think it's kind of crazy that a game that's been out for two years hasn't added all of them yet But you know, that's just throwing shade Ten weeks left in the years that's true I have no idea. I can't math But no, I don't know I don't know. I don't know I don't know But no 10 weeks, there's no way it's oh, yeah 10 weeks. That's true. Actually. I'm not Depending on how you count 10 to 11 week.  That's wild Dude, so yeah, one of these games got to come come on. Please be what I'm streaming by the way I'm pred or op if they come out. I am going to be live on my youtube channel It might be scuffed I apologize in advance But if you're interested in seeing me play video games poorly and having jelly knees yell at me when I don't Do exactly what he wants to do. Yeah, tune in. Um, that would be a real entertainment value right there. It is It is Yeah, tune into my channel if you want to see jellies come streak it out of the woods at five health That'll happen on mine too. It'll be on both because he does it But I will say jelly you get the kills and you you do somehow get out I believe somebody made a video of 480 C's in one video because I kept getting kills and the games kept ending I don't know. I think it's crazy. So I'll take my my occasional streaking out of the jungle to 20 kills Hell or not more heroes and fault surge been a man. I don't really like I don't I don't want to dig into fault tonight It was probably my fault for even opening opening the the thing I'll turn it a little bit while we wait for a few more questions and maybe come in and we'll wrap it Not to wrap it up over here. Yeah um So I think because this is something you said earlier and I'm curious if the the team agrees if jelly has to say I thought overprimes version of the 80 carries was less boring than uh, the current version of faults I didn't get to play predecessor, but I find faults 80 carries to be super boring to play And they they don't feel all that exciting whereas when I was playing overprime I I'm not normally an 80 carry main. I normally play mid lane or maybe off lane I had a blast playing as all the carries In overprime. I thought all of them felt really really exciting sparrow was probably the most Like the least exciting of them, but even she was still Yeah, but even so she was still pretty fun Especially once you got some items on her because she just oh man, she just shredded The cool thing with overprime is they all felt unique and fun to play With a complete lack in diversity of items, right open up itemization further for carries And they're gonna only accentuate that fact right their kits actually felt entertaining actually felt fun useful all the whole nine yards And like faults the carries just all feel like attack speed sticks, right? Like you're just you're just waiting so you can buy your next attack speed item So you can do more attack speed put more damage out there the whole nine yards And that's not what overprime felt like it felt like you actually used your abilities Just as much on certain characters or even more so than you would basic attack I think that's valuable And and I think what that that makes me think that yen going into overprime and I know again I didn't play processor, but I just think that having another kind of crazy different Carry in that role Would be super fun to see I think that would be Especially with the amount of projectiles that they did she could counter right like Dude, that would be nuts with that reflect. I mean they would have to keep that right That's like one of her most iconic abilities in the game. They'd have to keep that Uh cat has a good question. What are your personal opinions on characters that we will most likely not see for a minute? I think zinx like we said, I don't think she really fills on each and she wasn't that popular of a hero Even though I loved me some zinx And uh terra I think is another one Just people had quit playing paragon by then so a lot of people don't even realize that terra existed I think it's odd that boris has been And kind of like boris is in fault He was in overprime for a little bit back when before they got Bought up by netmarble. It's it's weird that a hero that was never released has actually been in a lot of these games when We haven't seen the other ones, but yeah, I think zinx and terra will probably be the last two we see in A lot of these games Ruba's here. Ruba. I did not get a chance to play predecessor man. I'm I wish I did Hook it up and the three will get an ftm play test in there. No problem Oh, yeah, hey if you want me to play your game, I am down You just hit me up You can send me a message on discord or send me a dm on twitch or on twitter And I'll I'll I'll definitely jump into your game and give me my my thoughts on the next on the next ftm I would I mean I would love to play obviously I think it looks like a fun game all the footage and these guys talk about it and the community talks about it All the time it was the highest voted on your last poll last week, which was super exciting to see These polls have just been popping off on your channel, man That's so cool that the community is really coming together these last few weeks to to engage in all this stuff People love my poll. That's been true for years and years Yeah, Byron Morgan po. I don't think hatch is gonna be We're good Rude Ruba rude, he's just like we're good I was talking about you earlier Ruba Oh, that makes it didn't they the bread clown has a question Didn't they say that every paragon hero will be eventually in pred? Yes, all these games will eventually have all the paragon heroes. They've all come out and said that at some point Just what iteration we'll get Yeah, not a thrill I prefer a goose pole, but whatever I mean Your preferences don't matter here. Okay. I used to know a guy named Peter pole and that was always funny to me Y'all can buy EA. Okay fair enough. Thank you. Uh, is that a leak? Buy it buy EA. Excuse me. Hmm. Ruba's leaking You heard it here first.  I'm gonna die laughing Uh hatch would be amazing. I think hatch would be amazing marsh would also be amazing. That would give us another dot hero I don't know a percent. I I think that was a Slip of the tongue in a sense. I don't think he actually meant it, but we'll see that'll be funny Um, yeah, I don't know I don't really have anything else to to add at this point unless any any other cool Questions from the community before we wrap it up. You guys have anything for us Follow me on twitter if you want to by the way I guess ricketer cat because ricketer is my favorite, but for some reason I've always seen graystone as having a man goose skin.  Sorry. Like I can't like you didn't hear your person anymore I don't want to throw ruba under the bus I saw it, but I didn't want to throw ruba under the bus anymore. You notice our ruba has not said anything since then The axe got brought down real fast Um, I don't know what you guys are talking about Oh, I just want to point out that uh, uh guy folks got some said a narbash for for a goose skin um Nick tana actually drew me as narbash a long time ago. I drew what? Well, he drew a nar goose Which was actually really really cool main bash. Yeah, he drew he drew uh Uh, Mandy and I in uh drew her as sparrow with a ps4 controller as her book. I feel like I remember this Yeah, long time ago long time ago. Yeah, I still got the picture though Since when is ea not ever paid for? Whoa, so he's doubling down Okay, okay. I mean, okay there. I could think of a lot of examples, but okay I So this is my take and this is I know we're almost wrapping it up But I don't necessarily mind the paid for ea as long as there's not some crazy predatory monetization in The game as well. So if I'm paying to access the game That's fine As long as anything else that's in the game is not Gross, I'll I'll be okay with it I do prefer free to play but I don't mind a paid to play for early access Name one ea game that's free to play. Oh gosh, there's like Is it omega strikers early access? Uh Well, I don't know if they call it early access or if they call beta. Well, the secrets out now has sort of been now, you know um I get apparently early access for predecessor will be paid early access which I kind of kind of expected but You know, we we hadn't we've never had true confirmation whether that would be a paid early access or not I don't have one off the top of my head that was ea that wasn't paid for but it's like normally now again Also would depend on the pricing. So if it's anything over like 20 bucks maybe and depending on what their their monetization is like as far as like buying skins and stuff like that like Paragon was free for me, but I've been that's because I won a contest Then I went and paid for it because I loved it. So goddamn much. I was like, I need to give these folks some money These here this the small epic company needs my money to to produce this game.  They brought it back It's actually a pretty good game now cancel both of these guys. They both said the word We said it multiple times. We just dropping f bombs left and right over here All right, so I think that's About going to wrap it up. Uh, this is a fun episode It was fun to talk about the the different niches that need to be filled with it All these games Mangoos kill a paragon Yes, he confirmed it. Yeah heard it here first. It's real is needs to belong to mangoos Come at me, bro. I'm jacked. Um Let's do our shout outs and call it a day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Uh Viking jedi start us off. What do you got the plug? What do you got shout out? What do you got to say for yourself, mister? Uh, uh, uh plugs. Um, okay So I know it's it's it's not nearly as popular as our fpm streams And this is not your channel changing by any means despite maybe people thinking otherwise, but I love being part of the anime podcast that we do every thursday, um, please come and check it out if you'd like anime or if you just want to see more of of us two plus, uh, two editions in in dapper and oan, um It's just a lot of fun and we just shoot the shit a lot of times It's a lot more laid back sometimes than fpm is where we're covering a lot of news and stuff So it's a really cool Fun show so please come and check that out if that's something that sounds interesting to you Otherwise, you can follow me on twitter. I'm also in, uh, mangus's discord I have my own discord, but it doesn't really do a whole lot Um, but so if you guys have questions or want to talk to us about things Hit us up there And then um, follow me on youtube too because I will be streaming When one of these games comes out and I will pay for early access if I have to so there we go Because I do I've been excited for it and I think that the project's worth supporting at least as it currently stands So i'll be there That's it Johnny's Uh, I would say follow me on youtube as well subscribe whatever whatever the wording is man. I've been out. Yeah. I don't know those words Um, but because I will be doing the same.  I'm excited for it. Uh, mangus, what about you?  I'm used to it. I'm okay with this kind of hate I'm a jungler.  So it's fine. Uh jungle def jungle def.   Um Really it was a really fun fun stream. I'm glad if you guys showed up for the stream I'm happy if you showed up for the uh for the video that it turns into and uh Probably bigger predecessor news than we thought That was pretty cool. Um, let me find my outro. Uh, where did I put it? There we go. All right It was fun. Uh, hanging out with you guys, but this is the four of the midgets crew signing off you guys. Have a good one Man go hashtag scuffed Jedi Shout out to channel members.