Hi. I'm Jam. I do several things. I have a really cool title at a company that's been a real privilege to be part of since 2008. I was the 18th Aquian. And the evangelist title means that I'm in marketing, I do communications stuff, is that interviews, podcasts, writing things. And depending on the conference I might be speaking at, sometimes it's innovation and evangelist and sometimes it's developer relations and sometimes it's open source and what have you. It's a great catch-all for some really nice activities and I tend to, you know, personally what interests me is the context of technology, why we do it, what is it delivered for us. That's my thing. So very active, online, pretty easy to find. There are more than 200 interviews I've done there with people in and around Drupal open source, lots of different aspects of that. And yeah, please ping me online, follow me on Twitter. I'm very noisy there. It's great. Now, everyone, I would like a gigantic warm Drupalcon welcome from my friend Matthias all the way here from Düsseldorf, Germany because I asked him if he'd come and do this thing with me. Yeah, for whatever reason. So cheers. I'm Matthias. I'm a CEO of type of three, which is a type of three. So maybe people don't know we're the competition, much in the sense how doctors without borders are competing with, you know, like the Red Cross kind of thing, because we're still in open source, also GPL. And I have a history of like about 17 years in open source right now. That's the Twitter handle. And this is basically all the information you need about me because I'm not interesting anyways. So we want to give you a short outline of what the session is about because we've known each other for a couple of years. Yeah, we were younger. We were definitely younger before. And so we just came up with the idea to collaborate more because it just makes more sense. So what we want to give you an idea about in the session is that you should be aware of threats to open source software in general, because those are coming back big time, we've seen stuff happening in Europe, which is disturbing to say the least. Then we want to give you an idea how we can counter these threats, which AKAs to play the game, the others play as well. We want to hope and try to explain what collaboration is better than protectionism about your code. Then that's the standard stuff, like be open-minded and of course stay open-minded over a period of time because we consider that extremely important. And in the end, we're in open source because we want to make the world a better place, right? Hopefully. So we'll start with some history. You want to take that? Yeah. Do it. So I think the first, I'd like to sort of underscore who Matias is. He's the product owner of PHP, GPL, CMS that uses symphony components. And as the product owner, he's sort of the dress of the non-technical side of his CMS. And his CMS is a big deal, especially in Germany. There's a lot of adoption in German-speaking Europe, especially. And they've gone through their own fascinating, interesting history. We'll touch on that a little bit. But in a lot of senses, the word typo three is a competitor. And we want to talk about in what context that makes sense and a lot of context that doesn't make sense. For me, this is a different perspective on the open source versus proprietary situation that we find ourselves in, all of us. Yeah, you should do that. The history of open source. So we found a typo three like in, that works better, right? In 1997, so we're going to have our 20th anniversary in a couple of weeks time. Then we can say that in the beginning of the 2000s, that was the rise of open source software, right? Aside from our service run Linux or Unix or stuff like that. So your application level became more and more open source. In 2001, Drupal showed up, which was a good thing. And, wow. Then we considered 2005 the end of the open source war. So who was an open source back in 2005 already? It's more people than I thought. That's a good thing. For those who were not, those were the times when you actually had to fight to get open source running in enterprises. I recall we were sitting with Lufthansa, which is like this huge German airline, and we had to convince the marketing guy to state that he was using our open source solution. But he was, well, open source is no company policy. We won't do it. We had the same stuff with SAP. They said, we won't use open source. And we were like, yeah, but you just released your own open source database three weeks ago. And he was like, we did? It showed up called marketing. Okay, open source is cool. And by the way, Lufthansa's online entertainment system now is powered by Drupal 8, which is a super interesting news case. The media center on the Aida cruise ships is powered by Table 3. That's how we work. In the end, it's content, right? It doesn't have to be a website. Of course, but still, in 2005, that was basically when this entire thing, open source, became on vogue. You were allowed to use it, officially. And basically, until now, that's what we call the golden era. You no longer have to complain about open source getting into an enterprise. It's easy to argue everybody gets it. And this is what we consider, well, also a good thing. The proprietary market, on the other hand, was basically caught off guard and by surprise with the rise of open source software. If you take a look at proprietary content management systems in the early 2000s, not so cool. And they are too big and too slow to turn around and adapt to the level of technology that projects like Drupal or Table 3 brought into the market.  And this is why we all do conferences like this, rather than this 50 people meet-ups that we used to do in the early days. So we can safely say that we knocked them down in the mid 2000s, but we didn't quite knock them out yet. So if we take a look at what open source did in those golden years and what happened, so we figured we should talk about what we're good at. Right? You want to do that? Yeah, sure. So in open source, we're super good at a bunch of things. We're really, really good at refactoring that component and then rebuilding it in another language and then updating that implementation and making that even cooler, super shiny feature to add to that other feature that we already built. We're good at traveling and evangelizing and hanging out and, you know, telling each other how great we are. Right? We're really good at building user groups and we're, you know, very, very good at creating great conferences like here. Impressive. Things we're not so good at in open source. Depending on the country and the community, we're not the greatest business people taken as a whole and I know how to build a website and somebody paid me for it and hey presto, that means I can build websites and when I don't have enough hours in the day, I hire somebody else to build more websites next to me and when she doesn't have enough hours in the day, then we hire someone else. Like, that's the sophistication of our business thinking in many cases and it's not scalable and it's not very advanced and so, but, you know, it's paid our rent for a long time. I think the time has come and this is another talk. Time has come to think further about that. We're sort of, we have some legal problems along the way. You know, trademark issues, naming things is hard, right? And connecting our stuff to non-open source stuff when this could be a huge opportunity for us to really greatly expand our market and our ability to make loads of money, right? Which in, like, I would like that for all of us here. Things that were super awesome. You want to do awesome? I'll do awesome. Right? So, that time that Type 03 lost the bid that we got, right?  We're kind of awesome at that, I hate to say, right? We're really, really good at building our things and doing our projects and being on our island and siloed and this is our enterprise technology that you may not have, except we're open source, right?  So, but we've, you know, there's been a really long time when we did not talk, even within PHP. You weren't a PHP dev, right? You were a PHP BB dev and a typo dev and a Drupal dev, right? And so on. So, not invented here, Drupal 7, right? We're really good at reinventing wheels. You're better at venting wheels? Okay. Can you hear him? Regarding not invented here, we invented not invented here, right? So, we actually spent like 1.4 million dollars on a team that wanted to rebuild the next iteration of Type 03, which then never came to life. And we, yeah, awesome, right? Okay. And I'd like to point out that the typo community in this case is just as good at drama as we are. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the guys came up with the idea, yeah, they're symphony, but we'll build our own framework, right? And it took us... From scratch. Of course, starting with nothing, right?  And right now it's, we got rid of that, but we basically lost six years of development in the process. Because the rest of the Type 03 community and the core team was like, well, we don't need to innovate because those guys will innovate, right? And they're paid full time. They'll innovate for us. Yeah. Yeah. Great planning. So, in the meantime, the sharks that are the proprietary systems in this paradigm, right, have not been asleep. And if you've seen, for example, we'll get there, but if you look at things like the Gartner Magic Quadrant, like we do at Acquia, this thing called EpiServer has appeared right up with Adobe, right up with Acquia and Drupal. And it's a huge set. And they're cloud aware. They've got personalization. They are ready to scale. They've got great marketing in place. And it's a huge threat because it is a very close match to Acquia's service offering. But it's a proprietary package with all the disadvantages that we understand. But now we're going to have to go and explain those to clients again. We're going to have to start selling open source again. And we haven't really been doing that for five years or more because we've been in this golden age. Like everybody knows that open source one, right? There's a module for that. There's a module for open source one. Right. So they've been working really, really hard. And I hate to say that you know, Adobe Sitecore, EpiServer and so on have legit some really, really exciting, interesting things that we should be looking at them. They have bigger budgets, even as of three or four years ago, the average deal ooh, I can be like a politician now, the average deal size for Adobe Web content management three years ago, four years ago. And there was a video on YouTube. Somebody said this in public. Average deal size was $450,000 of license fees. License, right? With services and implementation on top of that. Now picture in your minds how much Drupal, how much typo three, how much open source, how much open source could you deliver for a half a million dollars, right?  Half a million on licenses before we figure out if it's going to work. Come on. With open source, we're delivering you every dollar you spend as a feature. It's a more beautiful interface. It's something, right? It's better. But they've got much larger deal sizes than we do. And they play dirty.  Yeah, this is when I stated at the beginning that we're having kind of a kind of dire situation in Europe. This is what's happening. So there's a recommendation for the entire public sector to only use software that has vendor SLAs. And I can see you shaking your head there. In Germany, right? In Western Europe. Western Europe. Yeah. So that includes Netherlands, Belgium, France is considering it. And if you think about what this means, because this is just a recommendation, just one line, right? Yeah, this is one one line of regulation. Who thinks they understand the consequences of requiring a vendor SLA for Drupal? Who thinks that means Acquia is going to win all the projects in Western Europe? Yeah, unfortunately. This is basically what it means, right? It's like it's one tiny line that includes, excludes all of open source CMS in public tenders, unless there's the official vendor of stuff. So just to give you an idea about service level agreements, who does not know what it is? Awesome. So we can skip those slides. We'll finish early. So the basic idea is that the creator of the, and that term's important, the creator of the product has to provide services and reliability for those products. Every commercial CMS does it because it's easy money. Every commercial CMS markets it. So clients start picking it up and they go like, yeah, can you offer service level agreements for us? And you go like, no, because it's open source and you can do everything yourself. Yeah, but the other guys sell it and we want that too. So clients ask for these things, right? They're totally interested in these stuff. So with a CMS like Drupal under the GPL, we don't have a contributors agreement, right? Our contributors, our contributions are ours and we sort of give them in perpetuity to everyone else. But the ownership cloud of Drupal is very, very large and very diverse. And Acquia, as big a service provider as we are, and the service, even if we, you know, Dress is my CTO, right? We still are not the Drupal vendor. There is no official Drupal vendor. There is a workaround that probably works. No, it doesn't. It does work. Check that. So he's got a hidden advantage here that he hasn't talked about yet. In typo 3, you sign a contributors agreement. All your software is still GPL. Nothing else changed, but you sign a contributors agreement that you assign all of your rights to what you don't have because it's GPL, okay? Just like it, right? It's a legal move. You assign all of your rights as a contributor to the typo 3 association, the non-profit foundation. Hey, Presto, the typo 3 foundation association, creates a commercial entity called typo 3 Inc. Game behind this case. All of a sudden, and they can assign the license to this commercial entity and Matias is the vendor of typo 3 and can apply for tenders that we could be shut out of as Drupal server spreads. So this might be something, you know, it's tricky because we had to get this idea into the heads of our community, which was, that's two talks of how long that happened took place, but the thing is so that our main questions that came up within these discussions and these were stuff where we were only talking to lawyers, right? Nothing else. No community people. So who's the creator of the software? And what happens to the money that you make from these things? Because just to give you an idea, a lot of Deutsche Bank runs on typo 3 and they have a service level agreement which runs around 15,000 euros per month. So that's like three full-time employees, right? These people could work on typo 3's core and this is what we do. So personally, I don't have any shares in the company. I don't make any profit of it. I'm an employee and the CEO, but still I'm just a super employee. You also have no investors. Nothing. No investors, nothing, no venture capital. And this was our most important question, like how do we stay independent from outside money? This is why we decided against Robert. No, we didn't decide against you. We decided against Robert. No, actually decided for Robert. But the idea was that we didn't want any venture capital in the company which makes our way harder because we don't have that much funding to work on, but we wanted to stay independent from every outside influence that we could. Yeah, that's your case, right? Right. Who knows about the US stuff? So this is not a... Don't call them the US. This is a different legal situation. This wasn't this specific vendor issue, but in terms of open source having won and proprietary now fighting back, the Canadian government Canada.gov brief was highly flawed in our view from a number of perspectives, but the RFP was written in a way that enforced getting a proprietary CMS. I think that the trick was getting user seat licenses written into the RFP, so open source where you don't need to pay for per user usage, right? Sorry, can't do it. I think that was the trick that used... Anyway, so open source was essentially excluded. Adobe One, there were some super dubious architectural decisions made along the way where it's just way, way too big and way, way too much. I would contend Adobe Lowball to the bid significantly for a few tens of millions of dollars. As of mid-late 2016, delivery was at 10% overall and the budget was at 500% over the initial bid. So, you know, bad idea. There's got to be a point where the government of Canada could consider like just like stopping, not throwing good money after bad and trying open source, right? So, yeah, so this is an interesting trap where some lobbyists get things positioned right and you know, this is a situation where maybe Drupal would have been terrible for this because the architectural design was bad or maybe we could have influenced it to run differently, but you know, and we could be in just a bad a position, right? But you know, I want to say I don't think we would be because I think we're smart people and we, by definition, we use money in a very different way in our context, right? Because we're delivering value as we go. Legal issues. This is really interesting. Is this the... Oh, yeah, so check this out. This happened in Germany for real. Jumla, which you spelled wrong because the CI, there's an exclamation point there, yeah? So, Jumla, PHP, open source, CMS. They do things differently than we do. Good people, it's open source, you know? All fine. Jumla Association was set up to solve the exact problem that we've had in Drupal over and over and over again. How do you run a Drupal camp and collect money and not have it run through someone's private bank account and tax liability and how to use issue receipts, right? Found an association so that you can have some community events. That's why they needed it. It's a non-profit and in Germany the kind of non-profit that they are, by law, needs to work for the greater good. It has to be, you know, it has to do, it has to benefit people. What's the... How do they, what's the word they use to describe that in German? Oh, okay, right. It has to be useful to the broader, to society, right? Who sued them? German tax authority. Right. So the IRS in Germany told them, you know what?  Like, that does not fit our definition of what the greater good is, where we are going to remove your tax exempt status retroactively. Have a nice day.  That would meet our definition. That's a quote, by the way. This is true. This is real. Well, it's not a quote, because he said nö, gen zing burschen. Okay, but otherwise. So, um, I love this open source story that Matisse is about to tell. All right. So, what was happening that the Jumla Association started crowdfunding because they needed like six grand to fund a lawyer to help them win their case. And we took a look at that. And I have to admit that I was on the spiteful side of things. I was going like, hey, great, we know Jumla's going to implode in Germany. Awesome. More market share. But then I just took a look at all the transfers that came in. It was like 10 bucks, 15 bucks. And then there was 100 bucks, which was like standing out of that. And we did a quick call at Type 3 Association and basically, okay, let's fund a thousand bucks with that. Because this might affect us sooner or later, anyways. And the good thing is that we can make a legal case out of this, that we can then, you know, like pull up the next time the German IRS starts trying to pull tricks on us. One, thank you for doing that. That's awesome. You're welcome. And two, Matthias and the Type 3 Association cleverly created a legal precedent for defining what is for the greater good for open source software communities for all of us. Pretty much. Okay. So, we're done. You're welcome. So, this is like the key component of this. So, I hope everybody's aware of the threats and the problems that are there. So, we discussed why should we work together? Because normally when you start thinking about working together, it's about this thing, right? Market share, pie chart games. So, in order to, we can play that game. It's totally fine. But we should, you know, this is like the standard statement you get all the time, right? So, people do Drupal and they lose the lower tier to WordPress. They lose the upper tier to us. Adobe, okay. So, Adobe is the definition of the bad guys here. So, but what you always hear from, and it doesn't matter if you're in the US or in Italy or in France or in Asia, it doesn't matter. It's always the same story. Like the market isn't big enough.  How big would you estimate the Drupal turnover per year worldwide? What are we talking? A billion? Two? Ten? We did proper research on type of three and we're like a tenth of Drupal size. Our gross turnover is roughly around the billion euro mark per year. So, 10 billion isn't that far off. So, the next important question, what is our market? Because people tend to think in the open source silo, right? So, they think, well, our market is stuff we can get away from Joomla or from WordPress or from type of three or from Drupal. You know, like this confined space of things. And if we take a look at the market we define, it should be the entire web. And that's a lot more than just the open source silo. And then we should take a look at how much of this market is actually covered by CMS at all. And then the last important thing, this is just for the WordPress people, screw market share, think turnover, right? It's the same thing. I think which company runs the most cars? I think it's Honda or Toyota. No, it's Toyota. I had the same discussion in Italy in Bologna, which is the home of Lamborghini. I was like, yeah, we don't have the huge market share in this country.  And it's like the most incredible car on the world, right? So, think turnover. So, we brought some charts because we're not coding anymore, so we do charts now. So, just to take a look at CMS or the entire market, we figured in turnover that 70% of the web does not use CMS at all. And we had, you did the session this morning where we had 25 people and we had two people in the room that says, yeah, we're trying to move away from Dreamweaver. Really? I kid you not. This happened this morning. We did, before this morning, we didn't know that it still worked. Yeah. I was also thinking, Dreamweaver, that's still a thing. And then there's this market share which runs on CMS systems and that tiny fraction on top, that's open source CMS, right? We're not talking market share, we're talking turnover revenue being generated. Right. And that's where we're fighting with each other all the time. And that's dumb, right? Absolutely. We can fight really effectively for the orange and really interestingly for the green space. That would make sense.  It makes sense. And now there's more people than you anticipated to come. What do you do? You don't cut the slices smaller, you get more cake. And that's how it should work. What happened to my slides? Does it work? No, it works. The other thing is you want to do the everybody's bashing Acquia for doing so much business, right? At least you said so. Please bash him now. Somebody, thank you. All right. See, I proved my point. So if we take a look at proper numbers, and this is only this tiny fraction of open source content management system, that's like Acquia. And all that is not Acquia. So that's the open source piece of pie, right? Pretty much, yeah. So this tiny, tiny fraction. So there's enough room for everybody to get like make a good living out of what we do. And now my animation breaks. So here we go. So we basically brought like a synopsis kind of thing. I even don't know if the term is right. So we are competition. Oh, is that where you put that slide? Okay. Now you moved it around. This is totally not rehearsed, by the way, as you might have been able to tell you. We are a well oiled machine. What are you saying? Yeah, pretty much. Who are you? But like I mentioned earlier, we're competition, those still fighting for the same thing, right? To make open source more successful in the market in general. And we had this discussion this morning as well. So people are they have issues with moving from Drupal 7 to Drupal 8. That's I hear that a lot. And it's about modules not being compatible with Drupal 8 yet, you know, these kind of things. And what we figured is that that's the like the greatest thing about open source is that you can change it, right? Because if you go for the proprietary vendor lock-in, there's no way you can ever change these things, mainly because you're not allowed to a second, and you don't have access to source code. And we figured that we should join forces to make open source even more successful worldwide, because there's a lot of untouched stuff that we can jump into. And that's basically the entire divide and conquer approach. Work together, get the entire market done. And after that, we can fight not over the pie, but over the entire buffet, and then on our own private islands, right? So we invite him to Type 3 Island, and he's going to invite us to Drupal Island. And then we can decide who picks which parts. Right, tech cooperation. So this is another reason why we should cooperate. The simple reason is that we already are cooperating. There's this little thing called the age of interoperability in PHP or the PHP Renaissance, right? PHP 5.2 brought us namespaces for the non-developers here. That means I can have two pieces of functionality that plug into my PHP system, and they can use variables that have the same names, and they won't fight with each other. They won't cause a conflict. So I can have really radical names like date, or time, or name, or something, and that works. So that made it easier to put different code together. Continue. That led us to dependency management through a thing called Composer, so we can then we have mechanisms to plug in and control things that we put into our projects. That's cool. By the way, by the way, Fun Fact, has anyone ever realized that the Composer logo is actually a conductor? Oh, see? Details, details. Yes, we should put that in what we're awesome at. We're awesome at picking nits, yeah. So then we have the PHP framework interoperability group that started codifying other standards that let us work better together. They're called PSR standards, and that led us create things like the first PHP meta project of this era is Drupal 8. We got rid of a ton of our own code, proprietary code essentially, and replaced it with two components of the Symphony library to handle HTTP requests, and the Guzzle library, which is another open source library, and we outsourced that risk, and we grew our community by doing that, and all of the things that we have with Twig, and Symphony, and all these external components now, we're a meta, we're an umbrella over a bunch of other open source projects. This thing that we call Drupal 8 is just like the human body, you know, like what is the bacteria and what is me kind of idea. I was thinking about Frankenstein. Right, and we're super good friends with Symphony, which is a set of functional components also written in PHP. All of this comes together. We're already cooperating and contributing together to all of these things. Type O3 is written in PHP and uses Symphony components, and uses Composer, and uses Guzzle, and PSR, and they've implemented a bunch of the PSRs. They're ahead of us on a couple of them. You guys have PSR7 in place. Message handling? Okay, yeah, but we're not there yet. But we're working on, like we're using exactly, we're using the same set of toys, right? We're just playing a little bit differently. So we're already cooperating together. These are our friends. This is not our competition in almost any sense of the word. This was obviously a very stressful slide to put together, and because we live in Germany, we combated that stress with beer. Now the problem is, Matthias is from Düsseldorf, and I'm from Cologne, and those two cities are 25 miles apart, miles, I think. And as close friends are with the same set of toys, right, like we're neighbors, we hate each other. Like we couldn't even agree on what kind of beer to drink. So we had to go to another city where they drink something else. So here are the reasons that we've determined are really, really good not to work together on knocking out the proprietary competition. Is it loading? Yeah. Now we thought about what to put there. This page intentionally left blank. Nothing at all. Anyway, I think ellipsis is good. That's great. Jamma Matthias is a genius on display. Yeah, so actually, we're basically at the end of what we wanted to talk about, and one of my questions to you is, what are we missing here? Like, why shouldn't we be going to more of each other's conferences? Why shouldn't we be figuring out how to make symphony better, and how to make our libraries better together, to make our projects better? And you know what? Matthias Wanaita cruises. Very cool, right? We want Lufthansa this time. Very cool. Like, we're happy about that. I don't think there has to be bad feeling about this, because with 70% of the web that's not even using a CMS at all, we could double the CMS business, and there's still room to grow, right? So if you can think of reasons not to cooperate, that would be important information for us to know, seriously. So I'm really hopeful that we were able to talk about how, you know, we had this golden age, we have this golden age of open source, but the competition, the proprietary competition, has not been asleep. We have to learn to meet them on the field and play their games against them. We feel that collaboration is better than protection, and please stay open-minded, and please help make the world a better place. All right, cool. That's it. Go. Move. That was an assumption. Well, so I'm going to give you a longer answer than you expected, but we've got a couple minutes, right? It was transformational to have a website at all 10 or 12 years ago, and a lot of us got into this business because we could make a website, and then over time, oh, an affordable website, and then over time, we could make a beautiful website and a functional website, and that it is no longer transformational just to have a website. Everybody's got a website, right? And our skill set, I'm sorry to say, if it is simply the skill of putting code together to make a website appear, that is also no longer transformational, that is also commodity. So we need to be thinking in bigger, better business models that add actual value beyond the creation of the website, right? So AQUIA exemplifies this in a number of ways, which is easy to talk about, you know, with support SLAs, with security, with scalability, now with personalization, all that sort of stuff. Just like people who build Netnode has built an inbound marketing tool using Drupal 8 called Open Inbound, and I encourage you to check it out. It's really, really cool, and it's all built on Drupal. So you can diversify, you can be a full service agency, add value. In a lot of places, you can specialize by offering products that you believe will fit, you can productize things that you already do.  It is very, very hard nowadays to survive in any way as a business doing $5,000, $15,000, $20,000 projects, right? I mean, I don't know where the cutoff is exactly, but my gut feeling tells me, right, it depends on the country and so on. But churning out cute little brochure websites is no longer a business. Build a system, cool drops in Belgium. Dropsolid is the company they built, they built their company, they wanted to have more time, so they built a cloud infrastructure, then they built a site spinning machine on top of that. Now they're still not selling Drupal websites. They sell digital marketing to SME businesses, and they sell five hours of marketer time and a website and analytics help and campaign design help. It just so happens that they're spinning up Drupal websites that look okay and they work fine, but that's not their business. They're teaching for the first time SMEs to do marketing. That's amazing. Now they're doing that based on a system that spins up little tiny Drupal websites, but that's not where they're adding the value. So all of this is to say, websites now are only transformational if they're like huge and give you data and personalization and what have you, or they do something else. A lot of us don't even need websites because we have Facebook or Medium now, and then we've got Wix, we've got Squarespace, we've got WordPress.com, and they're really great self-service tools from making pretty decent websites. So our lunch is thoroughly eaten below a certain budget point. I don't see the point of doing business below a certain threshold of just building websites as there's no point in my view of there's no economic sense in it that I can see to do that. He says it's mad. And the self-service tools are only going to get better and the importance of Facebook where they give you a pages mechanism now, that can grow. And I blog on Medium because it's incredibly comfortable for me. And I have a site and I like my site and I still don't post on it because I forgot to update the Octopress library and then I got stuck because I'm not really good at Ruby. And then it happens. But there's a thing that's a service that just runs. It's convenient. So the action of making the website is less and less significant. And the survival point gets pushed higher and higher up the market, which is why don't focus on building websites, go add values. Very long answer. But did we kill you? Is that it? Yeah, it is. It's pretty much. Oh, okay. Yes. Oh, okay. Okay, so I'll just repeat this and then we can unpick it a little bit because it's really interesting. He said, okay, we said we should collaborate and cooperate and not think of ourselves. We can compete for business. That's totally legit, right? But he was suggesting that to be proficient at typo3, to be proficient at Drupal, there's some really serious skill sets. And it's a steep learning curve and so on. How can we possibly invest that much time? That would be crazy. It's not what we're talking about, right? So where could we collaborate? PHP framework interoperability group needs help developing standards for us to write interchangeable components, right? Which one is the database standard? I forget now. You have a standard for storing information. And if all of our projects stored data following this standard, the content repository, right, PHPCR. If we all use PHPCR, not just theoretically, but on a pretty damn good practical level, if we decide for whatever reasons, like, I only want to work with tall people. I only want to work with mustachioed people, right? So I'm moving from Drupal to typo3. My database still works with typo3. We just go and plug it in over there. The content structures work in both systems if we're both following PHPCR.  You know, so that's a really, and there's a ton of, I would be dumb to, no, there are a ton of opportunities in open source, all of the libraries that we use mutually, all of symphony, all of dweg, all of the JavaScript stuff we do, it's all open source, and we can all go and contribute there. We can all go and work together. We can teach each other and learn from each other at conferences, online, everywhere. There's a huge collaboration space, right? Marketing. Open source marketing. Open source marketing. Okay, like doing what we're doing attached to, right? There's that too. So there's a huge amount of space for us to be going out and saying, vendor lock-in, getting a value for money from the first dollar you spend, like all these open source stories that we need to start telling again. Look at the Gartner Magic Quadrant. Adobe's really strong. Aquean Drupal's really strong. EpiServer's come up. Sitecore has come down a little bit, but we have a ton of big fights to fight out there to get the big ticket projects, right? I'd be happy for you to get one. Us to get one. Trade off a little bit. That would be a great place to be in. We have some confidence because we can look at each other's code and we share these components. We can actually say with some confidence using this series of PHP CMSs, like we know that that's pretty good quality, right? You need a service provider in Düsseldorf and you need someone right there. Aquea can't compete with that, yeah? And if you need people on the ground in Boston, right, you have more trouble competing with that. So they're a great, they're completely okay situations to compete in while we really have each other's backs on all sorts of other fronts. Dave, okay. In San Antonio, Texas, there was legislation against the ride-sharing business model and Lyft and Uber drivers came together. The two companies came together to fight that, to make it legal to practice that business model in the city. He's suggesting that that's a similar kind of a situation. I have grave reservations about the implementation of the network business model in Uber and Lyft's case, but yes. No, no, no, but that's a great way. We have common interests, a ton of common interests and a ton of common enemies.  Like two smartphones. Yeah, no, so I've been in taxis in some places where there's the My Taxi app and whatever the local one is and then the Uber and the Lyft, like there's like six things across their dashboard and they're like, and that makes sense as an entrepreneur, like I'm opening up, so yeah. Beers, are we good? Thank you so much. Thanks. Thank you.


Good afternoon.  Today is May 25th and I'm Ken Burton is coming to you from Hollywood up on the North Shore. Now, a week ago Sunday the New York Times made it official, they put on their cover, which for the first time ever extended to their back cover a double page showing 1 million dots, signifying 1 million Americans who have died from the coronavirus. And yet people are demasking. They're throwing their mask in the trash they're out in big groups. It still feels to most people like we're back to normal. Are we're closely getting to that and yet there are still surges back and forth. And if you look at the Hawaii statistics. New York Times tells us as of yesterday, May 24. The daily average number of new coronavirus cases in the past week is 1000. 1000 new cases. Every day, this last week in Hawaii. Now that's nothing to sneeze at.  Today, I have my good friend, Daniel live with me. Daniel was with me in March, you may have seen that show. Daniel is a man of many hats, and in March he had on his psychologist at, and we talked about therapy. Well today, Daniel has his spiritual hat on. Daniel is a rabbi. And when he was a young man he was a Taoist. So he is rich in spiritual tradition. I want to talk about how spirituality can help us in these dark times with coronavirus. Daniel, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. It's great to be here. It's great to have you. You know, we're not only dealing with coronavirus. But we're dealing with so many other dark clouds in the sky. I mean we've got the war in Ukraine. We've got mass shootings. We've got climate change. We've got inflation. It just boggles the mind I can't even keep track of how many dark clouds there are in the sky. And yet spirituality can be a great support for us. It can help us see the clear parts of the sky it can help us see the way to a better day. So, I would surely appreciate it if you could start us off and tell us a little bit how spirituality does that. Just to kind of put it in a little bit of context.  Or more newer forms that may draw from inspiration is one of my clients that I don't go to church, but I believe in God, and that was her, she had her own way of doing so. Spirituality is very potent way to help someone be in the world. But again, I'm aware some people watching these shows are not necessarily identifying themselves as religious or spiritual. So essentially I'm going to be describing what a person who's religious or spiritual what their experience from my experience of them is I've worked with a lot of different folks from a lot of different people. So, just to write off one aspect of spirituality again looking at what the different traditions may have in common their differences. The one thing in common is this sense that there is either a being or a force of some kind. I want to find out what the universe wants from me or others will say I want to know what God wants from me or Krishna or whoever. There's a sense of a force and in many of these traditions, some kind of relationship, even in certain Buddhist traditions you don't have a relationship necessarily with God, but is sense of your own Buddha nature or the being in the world. What is this relationship that can really help folks through these dark and difficult times. Well that's a big, that's a big item support because during these times, a lot of our support has been cut off. We've been cut off from people. We've been cut off from our daily activities are groups and everything. What are you saying and what I certainly believe is, if we can look inside that spirituality whatever our own spirituality is, it can be a supporter in these times. One of these things, one of the things that you and I talked about before this show was, we have a tendency to take life for granted. We have expectations of life. And when things go wrong, those expectations are sort of lost. And we think, my God, where am I you know, this is not where I'm supposed to be. This is not where I was headed to and all of a sudden. I mean this different place with different rules and I'm lost. And I think spirituality can find that for us. I don't know. Part of that, that lost feeling is feeling at least like you were kind of alluded to before isolated that during COVID a lot of us are isolated from our usual social scenes. And paradoxically, at least again in my tradition and perhaps in others, one way to connect with the spirit or the force of the universe is through people. Is is making relationships with people, even through zoom or other ways that helps greatly. But the sense of being lost does also get diminished. When we come back to developing our own relationship with our spiritual source. Okay. The 12 step groups have a wonderful name to hire power or power that's not necessarily above, but it, when we connect with it, we feel higher so from a more standard religious perspective it would be God and I want to see how God is helping how can I do that I need to develop my relationship and many traditions is through meditation or prayer, or studying spiritually inspiring texts. These are ways that people will connect it's all about in a way connection of that develops the relationship even more strongly so you're less alone even if you're not connecting with so many people. I've been doing a study little study group with with a couple of folks and that it really makes my week it because I'm preparing. I'm connecting. I'm thinking. I'm also have my own particular spiritual practices like prayer and meditation that helps me connect. I feel less lost when that occurs. You know, when we're talking about this it's not only you know when you're talking it bounced off my mind that it's not only people that we're not connecting with it's the moment that we're not connecting with when we expect something different and we find that we're sort of lost. We're looking around but we're not seeing that moment we're not living that moment. That moment also gives us that connection where we can connect up with our own spirituality. You find that in your groups as well I assume. Well definitely this. At least from a Jewish tradition there are a couple of concepts one is yesh and the others I am these are Hebrew words yesh means there is. I am means there is not early aim, but on a spiritual spiritual level yesh means we're seeing things from a dualistic perspective. I have expectations I am separate from my life experience and I'm not getting what I want. And that's very frustrating versus a small spiritual or even mystical approach is I am is there are no separation. We're all connected. Okay. So in every moment as I I connect to the unification or whatever moment I'm going to find out what I need to do in that moment. And so that helps me let go of some of the frustrations I have and say okay here I am feeling isolated what can I do to connect with life right now. And, and taking that, whether it's from a formal spiritual perspective or practice or just as a person, going out into nature, for example, is a very spiritual practice for many people. You feel connected to the world around you, and can let go at least temporarily some of the, I'm over here and you're over there we're all separate. We need that to function in the world, but sometimes we go a little too extreme and it leads to a lot of uncomfortable feelings and disappointments. Absolutely. Yeah, the, I connect up every evening on my line. It's the pleasure of Daniel and his wife market being up on that line. This last week. But every night at five between five and six I go on the night and I connect with the animals, the birds, the sky, the trees, my yard, the garden. And I did that for an hour and it gives me such a such a relief and from that.  It's such a wonder how beautiful this island is. And once I connect with that moment I can also see the people that I cannot see immediately like I can. I can envision my daughter who's in Kailua an hour away from me in the drive just by sitting on my own the night. I can connect with her I can connect with you. I can connect with other friends. If I only just take a breath and be in that moment and then it comes to me, rather than sitting there and listening to the news and going, oh no, oh my God, you know, whatever you say, you know, we're in big trouble. You know, I'm lost type of thing. I mean, when you make that connection I know we're talking more spirituality here, but psychologically, physically, these kinds of practices are very good for us. They create more peace, more positive sense of well being, you feel more grounded and less lost. And the losses in your life, people have passed on. It helps us cope with it better, helps us move forward better. And so yeah, that's great that you do that. And can we follow that up because that was the next thing I was wanted to talk about was that feeling of loss, loss and grief that so many people have gone through those million people that have died in this country. And so many people have touched so many other lives and those other lives that are still here. Yeah, I'm missing them and feel that very strongly it's like, like part of you has been cut out. How can we deal with that kind of grieving through spirituality, Daniel. Well I won't pretend I have all the answers but something I learned a long time ago I used to work at a synagogue I was a Hebrew teacher, and I heard this terrible story about one of our kids got run over by a car. And the rabbi was sitting with the parents and can you imagine it's like the most painful thing the parents wanted to know, where was God and all this you know they're trying to figure this out. And again coming from more mainstream religious perspective and he said you know, in Hebrew, there are two names for God, or two, two basic names for God is Elohim, and yeah. They have qualities, because they're not just a being it's how we experience again back to a relationship so Elohim we experience as bam, things happen, you know. Oh, this thing started happening you know, many of them wonderfully surprising and many of them, not wonderfully surprising like losing somebody, losing someone to coven.  And this rabbi said but then there's yeah, there is the God of compassion. That aspect of God helps us to deal with the other aspect, you can replace the word God with life doesn't matter what matters is that there are things we can do we can connect with connecting with our spiritual source can help us go through our grieving. And maybe even find meaning within that. That as we take that moment or two, even just to whether you wanted to say, I need some help. Just feel the presence or like you going out being in the presence of the world, not trying to find an answer, just being present there. That is what one way I'm familiar to deal with those things that come down so hard and we don't know the answers we don't know why we feel angry. This is key is spiritual connection, even if you're mad at God that's part of a relationship or mad at the universe, however you want to conceive of it. This is a way is to be present with it and connect with in any way you can. That helps us cope. Yeah, and I totally agree with that, but the difficulty is that with some people. It's very easy words to say, you know, we're, we're sitting here and we're telling people, take a moment, live in the live in that moment, see that moment identify with it. And those words sound good, and I tell that to people, and they try it, and it works for a couple seconds and then boom, you know, all of a sudden the world crashes in again. The mind up here, just going going going on all the negatives. And those few seconds of spirituality of refreshment of joy just goes yet to keep them in that. It's hard to, it's easy to say but really hard for people to do. And I keep trying to tell them keep working at it. But it's difficult. I don't know. I think it's one of the things that have been successful for you in these areas. One thing is, it depends on what stage the person is. If they just lost someone. I'm not going to give them advice. I'll just be present with them. I can do they want to just talk a listen or whatever. But at another stage that may be ready to try some of these things are here. I've not been a great Hasidic Rev I said that suffering tends to fade away when we are really connected with our purpose in life when I'm doing those kinds of practices and you're right it is a practice to be in the world to be in the world yet connect with a spiritual connection of some kind. Like I said, whether it's God or however you want to conceive of it or just being with life, that as you, it takes work because we are trained in a dualistic world to think we're separate. And it's hard to come together but when we do things that connect with our purpose in life to become connected. Then those things that we thought were suffering cease to be the same. It becomes less painful. It becomes even on some level at some point strengthening there's something you familiar with post traumatic stress disorder. There's there's a whole field of therapy for it, or perspective called post traumatic growth. That going through these difficult situations actually can help us grow. And some of the ways they can help us to reach that is exactly what we're talking here to have some quiet moments to do our best to notice those thoughts of sadness, or whatever comes through us and honor them not necessarily push them away, but honor them, and then refocus ourselves back. Let's say we're just doing some meditation we were hanging out, taking a walk in the woods or whatever and just walk in the woods. And yes, take those with you, because they are eventually going to let you know something really important in your life. And then they'll eventually transform into something else that won't be quite as painful. Yeah, I totally agree that it well put thank you. One of the things that I've tried in the past. Because it is so difficult to to keep practicing to keep trying that. Every time the world intrudes and stops us and blocks us it's a, people take it as a defeat. Right. And oftentimes I'll try to give them something to do. That's beyond just thinking something, not just cognitive. Sometimes I'll just say, turn your head. And look at it from a different side. Every time you feel like the world's crashing in. And you're going to be defeated it's going to overrun you to the side, or my favorite is to look up and look up and see the heavens and get strength to say I can try this I can keep at this I will keep doing this. I can find a clear spot in this dark sky. But the physical part seemed to help people a lot as well as just simply the cognitive part. Yeah, I know it sounds sort of silly but hugging a tree or laying on the beach and feel the ground beneath you or sit somewhere and feel the ground beneath you. The intent is not, oh I'm going to do this and is it working. You know, no, we're not trying to get rid of these feelings or thoughts they're there. It's part of the whole process. So, you know, whether you're praying or meditating or just being present in an experience like taking a walk in the park. It's just be there but also accept yeah I'm going to have these thoughts and that's part of it, not to try to get rid of it. Let it be there and refocus your attention as best you can. It's, you know, you'll get the interference thought oh but that's not happening. And that's just another distraction. Okay, here you sit over here, and we're going to do this. So, it's all part of it all the feeling of lost this. Just let it be there.   I keep coming back to the woods in or the beach or natural environments naturally can help us to to feel that sense of oneness being in the ocean. You know, those kinds of thing, or being with with people you love and just hanging with them. When I first moved to the North Shore. And that was 1977. How many years ago is that I know we want to go above. But one of the things one of my friends did here on the North Shore was we went to my may have alley took me to why may have alley for the first time. And we hiked back to the falls. And one of the first things he had us do and we were there. There was about five or six of us. He had to stop along the way and hug a tree. Yeah, so every, every time somebody says to me hug a tree, I'm back in why pay a valley. Hugging a tree on my way to the glorious waterfall and the swimming that can be done there and it's that is another thing that if for some reason you can't leave your house, close your eyes and go somewhere in your imagination. That is your memory. Right, that's a very spiritual practice too because if you had like like what I was there with you I was hugging a tree with you on the on the on the road to why may have. You can go back to an experience you've had and replay it and re experience it inside, and that is just a strong way to connect as going out somewhere. Absolutely. And we're getting to sort of the my favorite part of this full talk and that is the thing I love best about spirituality. And that is the hope that it engenders. I know we talked about this before so can we take a moment and can you tell us a little bit give us a little perspective on the hope that spirituality can give us. Yes, well again, it depends on what's tradition but often just having a belief like I have one client. He's going through some really hard stuff. And he said but you know I know God's going to take care of me. He has a certain level of faith and that increases his sense of hope even though it's going through hard times. It's going to be okay in the end. So on that level the sense of belief in in that you are going to align with your spiritual source. The other is these practices I keep talking about. Okay, they actually if we can calm down enough on the inside and feel a connection with the world. That often starts to increase a sense of confidence of hope. As we let those negative thoughts or feelings be there but not overly focus on them. We can make room for that other part of us on the inside to come up bubble up. And that one way to describe that is hope. Yeah, it's an amazing thing because it. It brings out the best in us. And that's what we need we need to see the best of us during these dark times. We see where we've failed where we've fallen short. And we can't be there to comfort loved ones when they're sick, for instance, when we can't do the things to help people that we used to do. That erodes our confidence but if we in touch with the spirituality and not only the spirituality of our higher power, and those around us but our own insights, or our own essence. That's part of the spirituality to and that just makes you feel not only so much better, but it makes you have hope that you can make some good choices that you can choose. What's going to happen, not just sit back and be rolled over by this coronavirus steamroller or climate change or whatever it is that's rolling over us that we can make some changes and that we have some power. And to take that attitude which helps greatly instead of oh I know it's going to be terrible is to replace that with curiosity. Let's see what's going to happen. I'm ready for it. Daniel we're we've got less than five minutes to go so my sort of traditional final question is, maybe you could share a little bit of something about how personally that you've found joy during these last two dark years, because what people don't understand is helping professions whether you're helping in a religious way or a psychological way or whatever way that you're helping other people. It's hard on you is is on the people you're trying to help. And so, what thoughts on what's brought to you some particular joy in these last few times of dark times. Well, a work perspective, I feel incredible. Most of the time joy working with my clients. I feel very inspired by the lives they're going through the struggles. We work together to explore how things can be better. They inspire the heck out of me. But in addition to what I do in my work. What brings joy to me is is studying religious and spiritual texts is learning and reading is spending time with my wonderful wife is going out into the world going to beautiful places and being there. And as you know when I'm not working some of the things that bring joy to me and just being aware that I am in the world of the Holy One which is is a fascinating who knows what's going to happen next exploration and adventure adventure in a beautiful place called Hawaii. Yeah. Sometimes you know Daniel I think I've died and gone to heaven and heaven is actually where I live now, you know, yes, yes. And so that certainly makes me feel good and takes away some of those dark skies that's for sure. And I hope that everybody listening to us can sort of live in that Hawaiian moment and be one with our Hawaiian environment. And by the way, for those of you who listening in if you have any questions, either Daniel or myself or any other guests are people who've been on this show that you want to ask are some comments that you have please. Let think tech Hawaii know that they've been running I'm sure where you can send the questions out I see the thing below me right now so be sure and let us know we'd like to hear from you and respond to what you're thinking about and how you're feeling because it's important to us. Daniel thank you again so much for being here. And thanks to think tech Hawaii and Jay and Naly and Michael and everybody who works here for helping us out and thank you all. For those of you out there listening and I wish you the best of days and the happiest of days and the most spiritual of days. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching think tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at think tech Hawaii.com. Mahalo.


I want to take a look at one more application for coding and data science that's called JASP. This is a new application not very familiar to a lot of people and still in beta, but with amazing promise. You can basically think of it as a free version of SPSS. And you know what, we love free. But JASP is not just free. It's also open source. And it's intuitive. And it makes analyses replicable. And it even includes Bayesian approaches. And so take that all together, you know, we're pretty happy and we're jumping for joy. So before we move on, you just may be asking yourself, you know, JASP, what is that? Well, the creators emphatically deny that it stands for just another statistics program. But be that as it may, we'll just go ahead and call it JASP and use it very happily. You can get to it by going to JASP dash stats.org. And let's take a look at that right now. JASP is a new program, they say a low fat alternative to SPSS. But it is a really wonderful, great way of doing statistics. You're going to want to download it. Best of fine your platform. It even comes in Linux format, which is beautiful. And again, it's beta. So stay posted, things are updating regularly. And if you're on Mac, you're going to need to use x Quartz. But that's an easy thing to install, it makes a lot of things work better. And it's a wonderful way to do analyses. When you open up JASP, it's going to look like this. It's a pretty blank interface. But it's really easy to get going with it. So for instance, you can come over here to file. And you can even choose some example data sets. So for instance, here's one called big five, that's personality factors. And you've got data here, that's really easy to work with. Let me scroll this over here for a moment. So there's our five variables. And let's do some quick analyses with these, say, for instance, we want to get descriptives. We can pick a few variables. Now, if you're familiar with SPSS, the layout feels very much the same. And the output looks a lot the same.  And then I can choose additional statistics, I can get quartiles, I can get the median. And you can choose plots. Let's get some plots. All I do is click on it, and they show up. And that's a really beautiful thing. And you can modify these things a little bit. So for instance, I can take the plots and let's see if I can drag that down. And if I make it small enough, I can see the five plots. Well, I went a little too far on that one. Anyhow, you can do a lot of things here, and I can hide this, I can collapse that. And I can go on and do other analyses. Now what you really need, though, is when you navigate away from it, so I just clicked in the blank area of the results pane, we're back to the data here. But if I click on one of these tables, like this one right here, it immediately brings up the commands that produced it. And I can just modify it some more if I want to say I want skewness and kurtosis. Boom, they're in there. It's an amazing thing. And then I can come back out here, I can click away from that. And I can come down to the plots, expand those. And if I click on that, it brings up the commands that made them. It's an amazingly easy and intuitive way to do things. Now, there's another really nice thing about JASP. And that is that you can share the information online really well through a program called osf.io. That stands for the Open Science Foundation, that's its web address osf.io. So let's take a quick look at what that's like. Here's the open science framework website, and it's a wonderful service, it's free, and it's designed to support open, transparent, accessible, accountable, collaborative research. And I really can't say enough nice things about it. What's neat about this is, once you sign up for OSF, you can create your own area. And I've got one of my own, I'll go to that right now. So for instance, here's the data lab page in open science framework. And what I've done is I created a version of this JASP analysis. And I've saved it here. In fact, let's open up my JASP analysis in JASP. And then I'll show you what it looks like in OSF. So let's first go back to JASP. And when we're here, we can come over to file and click computer. And I just saved this file to the desktop. Click on desktop. And you should have been able to download this with all the other files, DSO324JASP. I'm going to double click on that to open it. And now it's going to open up a new window. And you see I was working with the same data set, but I did a lot more analyses. I've got these graphs, I have correlation scatter plots. Come down here, I did a linear regression. And we just click on that. And you can see the commands that produced it as well as the options. Didn't do anything special for that. But I did do some confidence intervals and specified that. And it's really a great way to work with all this, I'll click back in an empty area, and you can see the commands go away. And so I've got my output here in JASP. When I saved it, though, I had the option of saving it to OSF. In fact, if you go to this web page, osf.io slash three T two JG, you'll actually be able to go to a page where you can see and download the analysis that I conducted. Let's take a look. This is that page. There's the address I just barely gave you. And what you see here is the same analysis that I conducted, it's all right here. So if you're collaborating with people, or if you want to show things to people, this is a wonderful way to do it. Everything's right there. Now this is a static image. But up at the top, people have the option of downloading the original file and working with it on their own. So in case you can't tell, I'm really enthusiastic about JASP and about its potential, still in beta, still growing rapidly. I see it really as an open source, free and collaborative replacement SPSS. And I think it's going to make data science work so much easier for so many people. I strongly recommend you give JASP a close look


So if you just watched that last video on kickoffs, you may be wondering what would prevent a team who is kicking off from maybe just kicking the ball real short and instead of the Receiving team being able to run up and grab it. What if one of the third guys? Can run up and grab it first and would they get the ball right there and The answer is yes, they can kick it short, but no it can't be that short So what we're actually talking about here is something called an on-side kick And so teams will do this. Maybe they're down Late in the game. They're not gonna have enough time To kick the ball off normally and stop the other team So what they will do is something called an on-side kick and that rules for an on-side kick state that the ball Must go at least ten yards so the Just go ten yards And that's really the only Roll That there is so so the ball will be kicked just over as we said the the receiving team cannot come closer than ten yards So you do have to kick it into the the receiving team, but and the as with all kickoffs the members of the kicking team cannot cross The line until the ball has been kicked, but it is possible to kick that ball Ten yards and for this team to run up and recover it doesn't even have to touch a player on the receiving team although you can imagine if you're only ten yards away and you kick that ball pretty hard sometimes it's going to be Difficult for them to catch and so it might bounce off of a member of the receiving team and back To the kicking team but as long as that ball is goes at least ten yards The kicking team can recover it and then that would be the line of scrimmage for them to start an offense And that's one thing to note That the ball does not have to touch a member of the receiving team so for some odd reason if even if the ball was kicked way It was kicked kick kind of normally And for some odd reason no no team or no member of the receiving team were to touch it Maybe they are moving the other way this guy thinks that this guy's got it and Something gets messed up and nobody touches this ball The kicking team can run down and they can recover that ball It's a free ball. It does not have to touch The receiving team this is only applies though in kickoffs rather than it does not apply and punts Which we'll look at down the road, but that is how an onside kick would work


Yeah, I think Booney's assessment is right and I didn't obviously didn't have my best stuff It's kind of a grind, you know, you're trying to pick in choose which pitch to go with here and there you know, but Luckily enough I was able to get to you know six plus innings but You know, there's a little bit of a bitter feeling just having to come out that way in the game and You know at the end of the day giving up four runs your first half in general Aaron was assessing and he said yeah You probably haven't had your best stuff for most of it But he shows what a good pitcher you are because you've still been able to be effective What level of satisfaction do you have with your ability to perform even if you haven't had your best stuff this first half? I Always want to keep aiming high So that said, you know, I really want to keep working on, you know the quality of the pitches and You know at the end of the day become a better pitcher