Our bodies have an instinctual drive to live right from conception. Without conscious thought to your heartbeats, your diaphragm moves up and down to take in air into your lungs, your immune system constantly checks for infections, your digestive system breaks down food for energy, and your brain takes information about its surroundings to assess dangers in any part of life. The latter of this list is what you would likely call the survival instinct. Is that nagging feeling about a situation, the disgust of rotting food, or even the fear of some animals? One such tool we subconsciously use to protect ourselves is our perception of depth. Is it there from birth or developed over time from experience? Well we all know not to jump off a cliff, even though we haven't experienced it ourselves. We know it's not a great move for our life expectancy. But how to answer the question of when does the depth perception instinct come into being? Well a scientific team would try and find out by trying to get babies to crawl off of a simulated cliff edge. My name is John and welcome to the dark side of science. Our story begins.  Today our story begins in a place called the Behaviour Farm in the early 1950s, and one of its assistants, the LPHD graduate Eleanor Jack Gibson. The farm was under the control of psychologist Howard Scott Liddell. Liddell had set up the laboratory, modelled on famous behaviourist Ivan Pavlov's Leningrad labs. By the 1950s, the farm was mainly creating experimental neuroses in the animals. On the farm, the subjects read on site were goats, which allowed access to infants for various experiments. Gibson had a burning desire to undertake her own experiments and made use of her time at the farm to study maternal infant interactions. One instant on the farm would create the spark for Gibson's future experimental career. Part of her experiments involved immediately cleaning one of the pair of twin kid goats immediately after birth, with a detergent before the mother had a chance to lick it. This was to see if the maternal bond would be interrupted. Whilst cleaning the kid, its twin appeared. Needing somewhere to place the clean infant, she put it on the top of a camera stand. Interestingly, it stayed neatly keeping its little feet on the stand. This was interesting. It was almost like the animal instinctively new jumping off was a bad idea. Gibson would ultimately quit at the behaviour farm in 1952, when upon returning from a weekend off, finding her goat test subjects, having been given away as Easter gifts. Well, it is at this point that Gibson would meet her research partner, Richard Walk. Walk had arrived at Cornell University as a young professor. The relationship was an odd one for the era, with Walk outranking Gibson by being a professor, but the female research assistant was considerably more experienced in science, and was even 10 years older in age. However, Walk being a professor gave him use of lab space, something Gibson hadn't been able to secure. It would seem the pair would be a good match. They would kick off this working relationship with a study involving rats in environmental differences based experiments, where they would be reared in enhanced or impoverished situations, where the results could be compared to normally raised control subjects. Kind of similar to Harry Harlow's experiments, although a hell of a lot less evil. One of their rat studies involved breeding a cohort of subjects in darkness, to be compared with a control group that had been raised in normal light conditions. To make use of the time-consuming process, Walk and Gibson looked to find another use for their light-deprived victims. This would involve a test involving depth perception. To test if they had depth perception, Walk Gibson and a research assistant, Thomas Tye, built a simulated cliff. This was a pane of glass held up by clamps and rods. To simulate the depth, different colour wallpaper backers were used, with a shallow and deep side separated by a centreboard three inches high. The experiment was the visual cliff alpha version so to speak. Well, much to their surprise, the dark reared rats actually acted just like their control counterparts, preferring to go onto the shallow side of the apparatus. Intriguing, the results would push Walk and Gibson to develop the experiment further, into a more permanent setup. They looked to make the perceived distance of the drop adjustable, and importantly, stronger and robust for a wider range of animals. The duo looked to test on other species of animals, including goats, pigs, chickens, dogs, kittens and monkeys, all of which avoided the deep side. When attempted to be placed on the glass at the deep end, most animals would try and escape, or just refuse to put their feet down on the glass. It looked apparent that depth perception was innate. Well, not quite. When dark reared kittens were placed on the apparatus, they just wandered around, not giving two sods about the deep or shallow side. But the big question was, what would a real human do? Well, it was the late 1950s of course. It was time to find some poo and sick machines to run the experiment on to. The experiment. Prior to the visual cliff, there was not much in the way of depth perception studies in children. This was mainly due to the risks involved with simulating heights, well, at least before Walk and Gibson's method. So the version of the cliff for the baby study was a sheet of plexiglass that covers a cloth with a checkerboard pattern. On one side, the cloth is placed immediately beneath the plexiglass, and thus is the shallow end. And the other side is about 4 feet or 1.2 meters lower, creating the drop. Obviously, there is no risk to the child. There is an illusion of depth, which is accentuated by the cloth pattern. The babies will be placed on the central portion of the apparatus and be encouraged to either the shallow end or cross the void to the deep end by the baby's mother. The key goal was to find if a baby has to develop depth perception or it is born with it. In Walk and Gibson's 1960 paper, they note in their introduction the question of nature versus nurture. Common sense might suggest that the child learns to recognise falling off places by experience, that is by falling and hurting himself. But is experience really the teacher, or is the ability to perceive and avoid the brink part of the child's original endowment? The experiment started off with a pilot beta test. This involved an 18 month old boy. His name is unknown to history, but he crawled to his mother's core on the shallow side. After reaching it, he stood up and shuffled around, when encouraged to cross the deep side, he refused and when placed on the deep end, he showed great stress and anxiety, desperately grabbing at the wooden sides of the apparatus. So Walk and Gibson recruited 36 infants, ranging from the ages of 6 to 14 months. Initially, they were placed on the centre board and observed for a number of minutes. During this time, the mother stood behind a screen. The first two children didn't try to explore their surroundings and because of this lack of results, but the third subject this method was abandoned. But a remainder of the subjects the mother would call their child towards both the cliff and shallow sides successively. Interestingly, when called to the deep side, most of the infants refused and when seeing their mothers on the other side of the chasm showed distress in not being able to reach them.  Some even moved away to the shallow side, others still just peered into the deep side. Out of the 36 subjects, only three had attempted to go onto the deep side. 27 had moved but only onto the shallow side, with the remainder of the test subjects refusing to move at all or just not following their mother's call and ignoring them. This is quite common in infants as they love to ignore their parents. The mother of the children who had not attempted to venture onto the deep side largely seemed disappointed as they had felt that they had failed the experiment, but the children had shown that they were more dependent on their eyesight than the call of their mother. The experiment showed, at least in most of the test subjects, that depth perception is pretty much there from when we begin to crawl. That was the end of the original study which would be published in 1960, but although arguably answering the question of depth perception and infants, it raised another about maternal trust between child and mother. The three that did venture onto the deep side creates a new dilemma, were they overriding their fear of the fall with their faith in their mother? Well, this would open the door to a whole range of other comparative psychological studies, making the visual cliff a classic form of experiment. One such study was Inter-Meternal Signalling in 1985 by James F. Sors et al, in which the mother was placed across from the chasm and encouraged the infants using various different emotional states, such as happiness, anger and sadness. Happiness unsurprisingly yielded the best results. Another side-quest experiment using the visual cliff on infants was with those who were pre-locomotive, aka pre-crawling, to measure their distress levels when placed on the shallow or deep side. And spoiler alert, in a 1970 experiment by Joseph J. Campos et al, babies became rather distressed in the deep side, hinting at depth perception and thus the fear of heights being innate. That is, from birth. The experiment cemented Walken Gibson into the annals of experimental psychology. But, now it's time to see what you think, was the study ethical? Children weren't harmed, although possibly a bit distressed. The question has to be raised at least for a second about the informed consent, something the children couldn't give. Although nowhere near as bad, it does have some feeling of the baby Albert study or the bobo-doll study. This is a plain difficult production. All videos on the channel are creative commons attribution share alike licensed. Thank you for the videos produced by me, John, in the currently wet and windy corner of southern London UK. I would like to thank my Patreons and YouTube members for your financial support, and also for the rest of you who tune in every week to watch my videos. I have an Instagram, which the link will be in the description, as well as Twitter, where you can check out random pictures on odds and sods. If you're enjoying this outro song, then please feel free to go over to my second channel, made by John, where you can listen to it and watch the video in full. And all that's left to say is miss the music, play us out please, and thank you for watching.


This is the first song on the book, in front of us. It fits in with our theme of trust, and guidance, and following guidance. Letting the Holy Spirit guide us. In fact, Gershwin said, this is such a good song, we should play it every day. So I said, well, this is a good day to start with. So, yeah, we might just read through the lyrics together, and then I'm just going to please play, and you can hear how Scott and Donna sang it. This is the chorus. Yeah. So we'll just read through it together, and then I'll please play, and you can just hear the music, and join in with it. And then when we get really confident, and we all get our beautifully singing voices all together. We won't need your company like that. Just before we write the song. Is this question yet? Right after the song? Yeah. There we go. Okay. So, so you guide me. Ready? You guide me. Step by step, Lord, you're leading me home. By the stream and desert, by the path through the snow, where I am in this world, you're guiding me home. You're guiding me. You're guiding me. You're leading me. Step by step, you're leading me home. By the stream and desert, by the path through the snow, where I am in this world. We talked there about in the early stages where we had to reach a point where we started seeing what is helpful. Everything is helpful, and then the next stage we see whether more helpful increases the helpfulness, or what actually hinders the helpfulness. I was just tuning into that this morning where it reads that, if you'll find, it quotes there, if you'll find that many, if not most, the things you've made before will merely hinder his ability to transfer what he goes to the new situations as they arise. So it came to me trying to discern what the next semi-experimental circumstance would be, the next decision to make. It's to help me elaborate on that quality of that ability to transfer what he goes to the new situations. More things up to my point. Spirit always meets us, but we think we are. And so at any point, that transfer, it's the actual transfer of what we're learning. How do you value that transfer of what we're learning? I actually had an answer coming to me. What can you do? It came to me this morning, this morning, was that how could I possibly know, basically? And that it was all about the whole process of trust is letting go and surrendering into the trust. So for me, what the answer came was that I cannot possibly discern what is going to be the best solution or the best to discern that. I don't know everything. I'll experience it anyway. So again, it's a matter of, it's this fine line of thinking that I know is and just following what I came to me was that whatever I possibly know, I must trust the guidance of him who does know. Be attentive for prompts, signs and symbols displayed around me in all minutes, which is the big, that loop system that I will then know by following those prompts. And for me, I am the Spirit and by the environment and the words and actions of my brothers who published this piece for me. Yes, that's really beautiful. Because it is a letting go of all preconceived notions. In fact, in the Rules for Decision section that's in the text, he actually says that your one remaining problem is that you decide what you want and then you ask. You have it in that order. So you can see where the whole curriculum is designed to have you ask first and then join with that guidance and then make your decisions from that joining.  Or like you're in a sense of partnership with your higher self with the Holy Spirit. And in that same section it says basically that you're always deciding either for God or against God.  Both of you, go to your corners. I'm not going to today I'm not going to listen to either of you. I'm fed up. It doesn't work that way. It's like either or you're always deciding for one or the other. So what you were mentioning was from the stages of the development of trust and basically last night I started going through some of those basically talking about the first stage which is a period of undoing and then a period of relinquishment and then a period of sorting out. Those are just the first three and so you can tell from the sound all those three that it's very much letting go. As you open up to the curriculum that all the education and everything we've learned from little child all the way up to adulthood has been a curriculum in judgments. We're talking how to judge, how to make wise judgments. The judgments are based usually on a curriculum that we could say is set up by the world for to be safe, to be sound, to be autonomous to grow into a fully functioning adult citizen and learn what good judgment is to learn what maturity is to advance to be a mature functioning adult. And then we could say that the Holy Spirit's curriculum is undoing all of that so that you become guided moment by moment. Not that you become obsessive that you have to say with every single decision that you make during the day what do you want me to do? Make it obsessive like that but you start to develop such a trust in going with the flow that it's like that general sense of trust and flow just seems to govern your decisions. You're like in a flow of continuous decisions just like if you were learning to ride a bike first you may go through it in more of a methodical way of learning to balance and with the pedals and learning to steer and so forth or let's say you're learning a game of golf or tennis you learn things such as back swing and follow through and techniques and mechanics but then when you get so good at it you can just ride the bike take the golf swing, take the tennis swing like a step-by-step thing just like a beautiful flow bye totally connected but guided to go on to something more fun to see how it's highly individualized so that's exactly the way it works and then you basically learn that you in any situation that you seem to find yourself you learn that you cannot prejudge the situation and that's basically how the ego operates I mean that's how you function to be safe and secure and to have a sense of control and well-being is to know your situations know what you're getting into we had parents that would always say do you know what you're getting into when you join this group or when you date this person or whatever when you go to mom and dad said I'm going to get married you're marrying more than just this one person we're marrying into an old family have you met the in-laws yet do you know the consequences the whole curriculum and judgment is to prejudge and to have safety and security through prejudging it's just like going completely the other direction where I remember for me I was working with the course and I remember in a practical way every time I would cross through a doorway or through a threshold or whatever I would repeat internally that prayer at the beginning of the book I think it was the first edition and the second edition I am here only to be truly helpful I represent him who sent me I do not have to worry about what to say or what to do for he who sent me will direct me I am content to be wherever he wishes knowing he goes there with me and I will be healed as I let him teach me to heal so that prayer would just kind of flow through me I go to the grocery store the laundry mat course of miracles group I mean to visit my grandmother every time before I would go through the doorway permanently reorient my mind into clear clear I really don't know why I am here except I am here to be truly helpful and I would click my mind into that and I would have these miraculous experiences everywhere I went because I was in that state of you show me you guide me you go before me and lead the way and it makes you very humble when you realize the self-concept in a hurry you could say that what you are clearing away is you are clearing away all ego goals and judgments and agendas and where do these goals and agendas come from except the self-concept if you believe you are a person you have these ambitions these things, projects that you are pursuing and so forth then it is easy to get into frustration because there is a lot of expectations that are tied into those goals and agendas and when the script doesn't meet perfectly with those goals and agendas there is obviously going to be irritation being annoyed all the way down to anger or rage almost like a child has a temper tantrum when they don't get what they want it works the same dynamics all the way through adulthood when you have something in mind and you really have your heart set on it an outcome in mind and then you don't get that outcome it's not that the universe or God or spirit are conspiring against you to give you a bad day to give you a lousy day it's another step in undoing this ego make-believe self-concept that was made to take the place of your self, your higher self your high self so it starts to make sense from that kind of context but the ego is never happy with all that it wants to conclude something's gone wrong and when you follow the spirit you learn to be very flexible on this trip I was sharing the story of one of our gatherings that we went down to Bellingen to check out this house we were going to be donated as a peace house and so forth and we were meeting with the woman who was going to be donating the house and she had a Down syndrome teenager who she said was going through phases of rebellion and asserting her independence and authority but we were going to have a meeting but the meeting the woman who was there hosting us really couldn't give her to discuss things with the child right there and she would go over and the child Lisa was laying there naked out on the back portion and her mother Rita was trying to get her clothes on first the underpants and she would take the underpants over and Rita would bat them flying through the air like no, I'm not digressed it was kind of this thing Rita said she's just in this thing with me now and I know if I had some help here and really would help out and I think she looked around and I think she looked at Annie and she was like too much maybe the hands just went up I'm not clear enough my hands are not going into that one and then Jason stepped forward and said jump right up went over there with the underpants with your pants with a blouse and at that age Down syndrome girl was completely dressed from head to toe and very happy and Jason went over there and again it was like was it a special gift, a special skill Jason was again following the prompts of the Holy Spirit what would be most helpful for us the best use of time and of course for Rita her stress came right down when she saw how easy that was and Jason was very helpful during the day was able to help her let her go out bring her back to the van one time she was watching everybody at a swimming place and she didn't want to go back in the van so Jason just carefully picked her up like a sack of potatoes and brought her right back over very in the flow of spirit but again that's what means might be flexible it has to be practical a sense of joy, there was definitely a sense of joy and happiness with all of it and that's how you know that it's the spirit when it feels like it's very practical and joyful you feel lighthearted and you know that the spirit's just generally orchestrating the whole thing can I just say that the reason I'm here is because 12 months ago in the Weyver Hart Journal a saying that you could, in one of your articles was so powerful and I put it in front of you and I thought I'd make this one in the kitchen and it was, a waking in love equals giving divinity and taking nothing personally and that was such a powerful thing so that it's been a salvation of a help in various things taking nothing personally it's so easy to do when you assume that language in a good way that's not yours anyway but that was so powerful so thank you just on this whole thing of trust before I came up here I went to a insurance broker who's actually a friend of mine and he's just done this for the last 15 or 20 years and he sells a lot of insurance and a lot of damage I can't remember total disability business expenses so anyway, I've got this quote done from him and it's quite expensive to get all this insurance but the way he went about setting up what he thought my needs were has a little bit of my debts but the debts are possibly due to things and we've got all the options but I sort of went on a lower scale so that if I happen to get injured on a job or something like that I've got my income basically coming to me for virtually anything that could go wrong and this is how he's set it up and they kind of gauge that they say what sort of insurance you want you want to just go really budget high risk or are you more on the cautious side more on the cautious side but all along I was thinking relating in fact to of course and I was thinking what mine am I in when I'm making this decision like there's fear there's obviously like there's a fear of a minute if I get injured then how can I pay them all this money before if I die I don't want to hurt my parents with a debt so I was just I had a discussion with David briefly about it yesterday and I'm still a little bit confused like if there's some to me I sort of see it there's a bit of a fear thing there and that would bring a certain piece of mind and that's almost just like formality would you see that as as being being going to the view of the ego how would you see that well the Holy Spirit knows that the mind believes in the ego and has set up a fear based world based on that police system so the Holy Spirit is not going to yank the tablecloth out like setting your table with the silverware the dishes and the glasses and everything and doing one of these kind of magician things where it's just like it's just ripped the whole thing out I mean if it was a highly trained magician and you really had done it many times and you'd seen it many times you may say okay we'll go for the quick poll but really speaking people are given a slowly evolving curriculum where pockets of guilt and grievances and fears are addressed in a progressive way just like if you were working with a child you couldn't go for major kind of obstacles in learning you have to build a sense of trust and confidence and so the Holy Spirit can really use anything I had a woman who wanted to travel with me and she had told me from the very beginning when I went to her house she said I smoke and she looked at me and she said do you have a problem with that and I said oh I don't have a problem with anything and she said you know well can I smoke and I said well it's your house so like you're asking me if you can smoke in your own house she had asked me what's my favorite meal I want to cook you your favorite meal and I said I really don't have a favorite meal what's your favorite meal let's have like prime rib that's the way the Holy Spirit works it's very light very gentle you're not trying to pull anything away from anyone and really the Holy Spirit is not trying to pull anything away from you just show you a different interpretation just show you there's another way of looking at something and then fear the grip can loosen a bit so the woman Lisa and she basically had her cigarettes and you know generally when I'm going to restaurants and places and everything generally I've been in like non-smoking areas I was in the smoking areas over and over and over the people we met along the trip was a very high proportion of smokers they were just drawn to her and she was I was like wow the Holy Spirit really used the cigarettes the family the family don't think of the Holy Spirit using cigarettes as a symbol in awakening but actually the whole trip was orchestrated she'd go out light up the cigarette and she'd have like a whole group out there she'd have gatherings going outside the gatherings talking about the spirit so it's the same with insurance it's again the whole point of guidance is to help you reduce the fear and undo the ego whereas ego defense mechanisms are often they are designed to minimize the fear but to keep the fear intact so you see the difference between guidance guidance is to minimize the fear and release the fear the ego wants to minimize the fear and keep the fear because the ego needs the fear to maintain its sense of identity so like with insurance in addition when I was guided by Jesus to as he said in the Bible render unto Caesar that was just Caesar's and unto God which is God I took that to mean that I was not to overtly try and go and break the laws of this world if there was like you're living in a particular country or city or county and they have like liability insurance is required to get a license on a vehicle and drive it I wasn't to go against that I was actually to go ahead and get the liability insurance if I was going along and there was a hermitage or a property where it was necessary to have a mortgage if you have a mortgage on a property then the mortgage company requires that you have insurance so again it was required there were times in my life when I would have a property and it was paid off and there was really no need to have insurance on it unless the guidance would come in and with our peace house to give you an example with insurance we had a pretty long stretch there where it was paid off there was no insurance on it whatsoever and it definitely a tree blasted into it one time during a wind storm like a cannonball from the old pirate ship days it blasted right into the side of the house which my friend Jeffrey was there he wasn't prepared for that at one point we had a huge dead tree in the neighbor's yard it was a massive tree and it was no longer growing so to speak so we had an interesting discussion about talking with the neighbor about taking the tree down and so on and so forth it just seemingly this tree was so massive that the tree had fallen over on the house it literally crushed the entire house the peace house wasn't so large and so we had discussions at one point and just asked the neighbor what he wanted us to do in a practical way the neighbor doesn't want to take the tree down it's really on the neighbor's property and you can't force somebody in doing anything and the neighbor's spirit said to get insurance so we just just didn't even follow so it gets away from kind of set things saying this is good, this is bad as if we can hide into the ego and it's the same with medical insurance and insurance payments come via the government or something like that part of her spiritual awakening was she had had two major head injuries one flying off a mountain bike and another one flying off some skis and she went from almost type A and really go, go, go that really slowed her down it's like getting a spiritual 2x4 twice and so when she came over first came over to be with me and to study and to really immerse and help out at the peace house she was receiving disability from New Zealand from the government and so forth and as she worked and cleared her mind and became able to meditate more and seemed to get her energy back and didn't have to take afternoon naps and so forth she just got to the point where it was like she still was receiving the disability payments but then it got to a point of integrity you know where you can feel it inside you know where it has served and so we would have discussions and I would say well if you have to see that the money is not really coming from the government it's just the way that the Holy Spirit is providing for you at this point and then when it gets to be a point when you feel you need to take action on it intuitively then you should take action so she ended up contacting her counselor and saying actually I'm feeling much more energy now and this and this and I really don't know that I really need to be receiving the disability anymore and he said oh no keep receiving it go ahead and so she was like okay I felt it I made the attempt and just keep giving me money that's alright I'll go along with my minute if you can see where you just have to be intuitive with it and if you feel any kind of sense of question or guilt about something then it's good to take a look and be very open with the spirit about that just say to the Holy Spirit what would you have me do I'm feeling a little anxious or a little bit guilted on something would you like me to take action so it brings it back to really following how you feel and being honest with yourself as opposed to any kind of set way of this is of the ego of the Holy Spirit I'll just put you in a simplistic way if you want to say that can I say something but I've had a lot of situations like you're experiencing I find that if I trust and that say you did fall off a roof and you're in the wrong hospital someone is always there to look up something always happens to make it okay whether the ambulance comes and it takes you to the emergency ward and then later in the hospital for a serious minister your opportunity then to shed your eye and I always look on things that go wrong or situations that are put into to be able to give God's word in those areas so if you do fall off the roof or electrocute yourself or whatever you do you will be looked after as long as you trust and by nature I'm not only having trust in my business that are required by law but also by the government before all the roof will come and come I know I'll get you leaving the room I'll get you leaving the room I'll get you leaving the room I'll get you leaving the room I'll get you leaving the situation where you can't see any way out or something always comes and you'll get you on your way you'll get you back maybe I'll be the same path you're on since you must exercise in your discernment whether you're coming from ego or holistic it's just like the same thing the same thing it's a good way to think of it think of it all as an opportunity for discernment and it puts it in a context instead of feeling like a pressure you have to do that the shoulds, the how tos, the have tos the I must it puts a lot of stress and pressure on the mind when it gets locked into those kind of things and it really is being intuitive even nowadays when you go to buy any kind of a major appliance anything from a car to a washing machine dryer a lot of electronic appliances computers it also depends like if you use it seemingly just for yourself or if you had a business and you were using computers a lot of high tech equipment that had an enormous amount of use that was happening there have been times when whether it's been a computer or a camera or something that's very high tech where they will say would you like the optional beyond the manufacturer's warranty would you like to add something like that and if it's part of what you do like for example we use computers we communicate with people all over the world have wireless and high speed access and use that a lot we're just heavy based on communications because the Holy Spirit uses the body and the technology for communication that's a very common thing that the Holy Spirit uses the thing that this worked for in fact it even says in the Course in Miracles that the only function of the body is solely as a communication device and you can think of all the ways in which the body is used the ego can use it for competition pride building an image there's many things that the ego can use it for but really the only use that it truly has is for communication device and if it's used as a communication device it frees the mind of guilt because that's the whole purpose and then without the guilt then the body doesn't seem to get sick or break down in the sense of because it's being used for a purpose in alignment with divinity and so that's important to realize as well so it is highly individual but even whether it's like you're talking about losing employment or it could be something like for an appliance or health insurance, life insurance you know there's many different things that come up and it really comes down to guidance there have been people that have been laid off or have gone through kind of injuries and experiences like that and they have been provided for through insurance but again it's seen as divine providence it's like the play spirit is always watching over you no matter what you seem to do no matter what road you take it's really all divine providence it's only when you have these ego filters and say well I earned the money not the play spirit I paid the premium I saved that money in the bank account and I provided for myself you can try to fool yourself into this context that you personally are providing for yourself but there's still a lot of stress for that it takes a lot of work to be provider for a body or to get children to take responsibility for them too the mind can work itself into a lot of stress when actually divine providence is just always there it can either be recognized or not recognized so that's really what comes down and like Lynn was saying it can be very unconventional you never know how it can be provided for I found in my life as I went along the things were provided in many ways I mean not like I felt like I had to have a membership with the AAA automobile club but when somebody offers you a biological father and says I'm buying you as a gift AAA coverage and then you take it and lo and behold the car breaks down or something and you have all these holy encounters that people would come to put gas in your car or to tow it or to do something it's just all wonderful encounters you don't have to see it as providing for yourself you just have to be very open and not prejudge the ways that you are provided for and that was the biggest problem for me at the beginning when I started to really trust was I was so used to providing for myself through all those years of education and working jobs and having benefits and doing going that route that even when I started to lose it from that stuff and people would say you need a ride can I offer you some food or some money or a place to stay or whatever initially when I was just going out on the road I found myself a lot of times saying oh no I couldn't take that no I couldn't possibly take that from you in this and this and this went on for a period of weeks and months until finally Jesus spoke to me again and said well just stop that I am trying to provide for you and help you out in this new way that you're going and you're refusing you know like the story about the guy who's drowning and God sends a boat and the helicopter it's very much like that that when you start to really trust in divine providence then you have to be gracious and just accept what is given you the sense that all things work together for good so you're just enjoying the holy encounter some all of us have had the experience where like you go into a restaurant or a fast food place or something and and sometimes the person who's at the counter may make a mistake seemingly at the cash register where they take too much of your money or they give you back too much money and it's easy to get into guilt about walking off and you're going and then you're 20 minutes later you're on your way I've got too much money or they took my money they took my money and didn't give me the proper change the more you get into the flow you start to realize it's just about blessing everyone and trusting that that it all evens out that all things work together for good and you don't have to run back and file a report and go through all this stuff you can just go oh okay and you move with the flow and once you get more trusting then you just start to say it's perfect I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to write that movie last night I'm going to I'm going to write this one I'm going to and I've always I've always thought that I have been a bit like put it on and before this I I had an idea of a job a full criminal job was pretty awful so maybe I have there's better things to do maybe I have a call maybe there's something better to be done but I do get this job and it's difficult but I've thought it to be very important for me to be able to work to be able to work which I'm sure health is what I can do and I'm sure not to make a work and do what it's incredible and so I don't enjoy that much and sometimes it's nice and sometimes it's great but it's not that I don't trust I've talked to Jason about this and Jason had some great things to say so it seems to me that maybe you're there now I don't think that this you can be happy there you can't like a student that stops you really it's really normal especially like I mentioned about this is a development trust the first three were undoing and then a period of relinquishment for things being taken away from you and then a period of sorting out so oftentimes you really have to watch what the emotions are I know that after I started working with the Course in Miracles the kinds of jobs that I was guided to fly for and to take what I've chosen they were strikingly different I would say they were definitely they were well selected for undoing and relinquishment because so many things were coming at me so fast I would say from a world's perspective they would even be called high stress jobs at the beginning and the reason they were so stressful is because the ego had all this pride it's almost like there was a chip on the shoulder that the Spirit had to knock off before I could be used in more helpful ways for the Spirit so that's why it's really looking and getting more and more in touch with a sense of guidance the only way I could even begin to comprehend why the Spirit would guide me into those kind of job situations was for the clearing way of pride and that's what I was told at the beginning it's like oh this is exactly what it's about and there was a lot of pride rearing up and I deserved better than this and why am I wasting my time with this or this is a waste of my skills and so forth and the Spirit is like oh you've got a lot of judgments that are clouding the way you can't be used as a miracle worker with all those judgments in there you have to clear it away so it was more like a purge it felt like at one point I had an eight month job as a case manager where I was working with clients that were had seemingly physical ailments like hearing deficits deaf, blind schizophrenia psychosis, mental retardation and a mix of all clients that I was working with and I remember it was very highly stressful and I was working with Course in Miracles and I was doing all the mind trainings but I would say for the Holy Spirit I've been in university for ten years what is the purpose of all this and again it was the undoing of pride and I was told from the Spirit you need to learn how to pray they hadn't been ten years at the university I have not been taught how to pray during the church going up a prayer is just something that you can be very much like broke from memory you set the dinner table God is great, God is good and we thank Him for our food it was like the Holy Spirit is like that's not exactly the depths of prayer where this is leading and so really what was was learned to ask for help and I would have somebody who would come in for an intake, a client of course the ego had wanted to pre-judge and read all the files and put them into a category and diagnose and treat in all of its ways and then the Holy Spirit was like no, you're supposed to see them is it for the very first time put away all those reports, the files don't even look at anything in their history learn how to open up and listen and follow and be guided in that intake interview and learn how to pray so that was a big part of the thing learning to ask for help and to follow that intuitive guidance and when I did the stresses disappeared and everything turned out very joyful when I tried to take all those past learning from ten years of university to apply it almost to diagnose and to be the healer based on what I knew that would never work it stayed high stress so I think that's kind of the context to keep in mind you may not like the job but it may be helpful in the sense of helping you release and relinquish some aspects of things that need to get cleared away for you too then get deeper into your calling to kind of clear away the obstacles thank you very much thank you thank you thank you it's a house joke it's it's a house joke thank you thank you very much everyone at the door thank you thank you very much for this point thank you thank you everybody for participating tomorrow you're not wearing a white shirt oh what? you just get on board with spirit you're not wearing a white shirt so I can come back another time I hope you enjoyed that experience first thing this morning for feet washing I have to say from somebody who was actually doing washing or being there and providing that energy I thought I was I thought I was getting the best deal by receiving in the process it was the most exclusive experience now I know why Jesus washed the feet of the desire because it wasn't actually for living maybe not but anyway it was certainly a beautiful blessing for those of us that gave it some I know most of you enjoyed it thank you very much


Might be a very short working group meeting and just sort of get a recap in and a status on some of the stuff from yesterday. So, I'll figure out and I'll hopefully get everything edited and up tomorrow from yesterday's thing. I just really wanted to say a big thank you to. To everybody for for all the effort that got put into doing those demos scrambling for resources to be able to deploy things. And it was pretty amazing. So, I really, really, really appreciate it. And we did. I don't know if you are watching coupon, but on stage this morning. Much to my surprise, I did not know that was going to happen. Okay, you got a big shout out in one of the keynotes that red hat did. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, so red hat had a sponsors keynote. And we decided to use it for saying happy birthday to OCI. Irvashi Mohani and Sally O'Malley did the presentation. And in it, they mentioned okay D a couple of times. So I, I tweeted that and that was, that was really very nice to see because we don't, we don't have a lot of brand recognition out there. Shall we say we're kind of overshadowed by our big brother open shift. But that's, that's okay. Because we get a lot of benefit from that too. So, yeah, so that was really nice. So I don't know is everybody on this call also following along on coupon. I, I hadn't, but I probably will because why not. All right. Well, in the chat, I put the, the Google doc again. So if you're attending, if you could sign into that. Yeah, but to see how much they're going to make me pay to do it, but I'm, I'll probably show up because why not. Well, the thing, I think the cheaters way just the back door and I'm recording this is if you are a member of the cloud native foundation Slack. If you're there, if you go into the Slack channels, you'll see number 1, number 2, number 3 and all of these other slack channels that are set up specifically for coupon. And to be quite honest, I think the more interesting thing today, there's chat through the intrado platform hosted thing. And really hard to figure out and disappears after the event. And then there's lack that the cloud native foundation has set up for all the coupon different tracks. And so I'm hanging out in Slack. I have 1 window open for the booth because I'm on booth duty. But I would say that the slack is really where the networking is going on. Sure. And you can always watch stuff after the fact that there are live after each talk in intrado, there is a chat room for this in Slack for those speakers. Well, then pretty much everything is pre recorded for coupon. There's very little live. Oh good. Well, then I'm just going to sign up for yet another slack workspace, I guess. Because that's, that's probably fine. I'm sure. All right. So today I'm going to share my screen. Hey Christian. Hi. I think we're all a little burnt out. I'm a little. Yesterday was. By the end of the day, I actually literally had almost lost my voice because I was. Maybe not talking as much as some of the presenters, but it was I first used of my voice after vacation. I wanted to say again on record. Thank you to Christian and Charo and every 1 of the working group members who presented it was, I know a big effort to get the resources to do that Charo. I know we just hired you and we put you on the red hot, red hat hot seat a number of times, but you came shining through. You know, Neil, you and dusty. I so appreciated having the fedora representation on that session that was you couldn't do better than that. Well, thanks. You really can't. And I need to, and I know the open stackers aren't probably here today, but it was wonderful to close on the open stack 1 and have that private cloud full open source stack as the closer. So, I'm going to start making a bigger deal and try and get some of the open stackers to come more often to these things. But that was for me that was really good because the, yeah, bringing that community into was very, very nice. As far as viewership, I think over the arc of the day between what I could see with interactions with people, we had about 100 to 125 unique people who actually were engaged in the day. Who like asked a question stayed online for more than 10 minutes or whatever it was the actual viewership, which is different than engaged people. They were from Facebook alone. There were 700 different unique viewers. And in Twitch, there were 600, not 600, 465, what did I say, 462 viewers. So that's people coming in at different times, whether it was from the tweets looking for a few minutes. And I don't have the YouTube live stuff because YouTube, unbelievably because with Google compute, you think they'd be faster. But their analytics page only shows the number of people who engaged in 146 people engaged. But it's kind of wonky and the viewer number is usually bigger on YouTube than either the other two platforms, but we won't know for a few days. So the other aspect of this is it's, it was a very long day. And which you saw in blue jeans how I paused at different points to grab chunks so that I could download the videos because the videos, if they're longer than two hours, it's really hard on anybody's computer to edit the videos. So it's going to take me a little bit of time to edit all those videos. I thought I could turn them around last night, but it didn't happen. So and coupon is happening today and tomorrow. So I'm going to try and get all of the videos done and out the door, at least on the playlist by the end of day tomorrow. And that'll be pushing it, but that's, that's my goal. I also, I'm going to get dental work done tomorrow afternoon. So, you know, you'll see how that all works out. So I am, I can't say enough that those kinds of events are huge for us building the brand of okay D. I can't, whether I said this before, I hit the record button before we also got a shout out this morning on the keynote stage at coupon. The red hat sponsored speech, which we never really do to talk about ourselves or red hat products. We used it this time to say happy birthday to OCI. Open container initiative. And in that, for Vashi Mohani and Sally O'Malley did two great mentions of okay D as users of OCI and, you know, and so we got some brand awareness from that, hopefully. So if you look on my Python DJ Twitter feed, you'll see that I took a screen cap because I was so surprised and did that. So that's really for us now. There's two sides of the coins is continuing to do all the work that we're doing. Building on getting the operators there and everything else and keeping the buildings cadence and incorporating people's feedback. So that's the work that we normally do. And also starting to engage with the public in terms of people who are using okay D. And so one of the folks who was on the call, most of the day yesterday was a gentleman from Red Pill. And I think Neil and I were talking about this a little bit in the chat on Red Pill is is migrating from 311. Okay D to four. So pep and is a great news case for okay in production. So I'm going to start looking for those people and try and get them to do little case studies or little snippets that we can publish and because I don't, there is no gatekeeping okay D. We really don't know who's using it. You know, for good or ill. Yeah, for good or ill. And we do know that it gets downloaded quite a bit. I don't have the numbers or the stats or anything, but there's just basically no gatekeeping. So it's engaging and doing things like yesterday help us get these people out of the closet, get them to give us feedback and enable them to do things. You know, enable us to know what they're doing with okay D and get that feedback into open shift into all the other things as well. So that's, you know, that's sort of my quick and dirty update on what's going on or what went on yesterday. I will as soon as I get the videos all up done. I'm going to do a recap blog post. And if you had slides that you did with your presentation. Share them with me at their Google slides and I'll include them in the recap blog post. And I'm theoretically I'm supposed to have that done by the end of day Wednesday but I'm getting a crown on my tooth and that's just not going to happen tomorrow. So I probably won't be talking on Thursday too much after they grind down my tooth. So anyways, that's my spiel. This is my gratitude. This is one of the things I'm grateful for you guys for doing all this work. So thank you. And so I'm wondering if you have any update Christian on okay D4 to share with us today or where we're going. Yeah, just a short one maybe. So for 4.6 we're still experiencing some issues with OVN. It's on master so the same with OCP. Yeah, working on that to get preview builds for open shift or okay D4.6 as soon as possible. And yeah, Vadim has his anniversary today so he can't be here. I think that's a good excuse and he's also working on preparing a new version of the dollar. Yeah, that's kind of the quick updates from me. I haven't had time to to write up the enhancement for the operators to get them released on okay D more, but that's going to be happening before next meeting. There was yesterday there was a mention about the Fedora containers. Yeah, I think Clement Timor is back from PTO. I'll reach out to him as well and set that up. I believe that he wants to set up some kind of dedicated workshop to like kickstart the whole thing. And so we should figure that out and get a date set up and maybe take advantage of the fact that Fedora now has this virtual platform thing. So we can all like just jump in and start figuring that stuff out. Yeah, so I think you're referring to hop into that we used for Nest and I have actually I have access to it as well. I paid for it. It's a nice system. I was generally pleased with it. Yeah, we pay we or I didn't pay for it, but I paid for half the contract for it. So Ospo, our open source group paid for one half and I paid the other half. So if we want to host a joint meeting or something like that, we should try and do that. So let's maybe we could get Clement to come do one of these and we can just discuss how to move it forward. Yeah, or if Clement and Christian want to chat about it and just let me know. Yeah, maybe maybe it's even going to happen before our next meeting, but I'll definitely invite him to come here as well. Yeah, we should do that soon. So I hope that can happen next week probably I haven't I was I thought it was happening this week, but there was no updates on the issue. So what I would suggest is that maybe we do something like a joint meeting, you know, KD working group in the container working group and maybe use the next two weeks from now time to do something and then just give him a half an hour to talk about what they what they're how they want to kickstart it or kickstart it then and do something. So I think he's really trying to set up a two hour workshop that kind of does work walk through and then also like a hacking session to get things started, because I don't think there's too many active members of the container stick right now. Let's come on we set that up. I joined in from the beginning and I'm not sure Neil you were probably there as well. I've been there for a while when it was alive and then when it died. Yeah, can you put in the chat. Can you put the link to their their landing page in fedora land for me and we can add it added in here.  There's a reason for it because there's not enough there there. Yeah, the main reason that the container stick died off was the the open shift origin community that essentially supported it in the beginning. Stop caring and open shift stop being buildable and runnable on fedora and a lot of the infrastructure that was being built around it was actually developed by the open shift team and those all brought it away. And so it got to a point where nothing worked and there was nobody there to help because nobody cared. And so naturally the stick just fell apart. And I watched that happen to so I just kind of, you know, and that's why I'm so thrilled about the collaboration and how it's worked with the fedora coro s group and I'd like to like to make sure that continues to happen here so to see if I have your chat here. There's actually the issue. I just pasted it in the chat about the next meeting and somebody posted a when it's good, which I think is probably like a doodle to find the to find a good time for everybody so you could probably just enter. Yeah, whenever you can in there and then we'll hopefully find a good time for everybody. Yeah. Okay, good. That's a good one. And then we'll just grab all I'll grab all of that. Put it in the notes here. You're getting to listen to me all the way back. So that's, I think that's our next thing prior figuring out the, the operator roadmap is probably should be the major topic for the next. Okay, do you work in group meeting, if you're willing to take that on and get that issue listed. Good review that next time. What's that for me? Yeah, that was for your question. Yeah. I will try to write up the enhancement, but I am pretty booked for the next two weeks already. So I'm not sure how much time I can actually do and dive into the actual operators there. I will try to set up or to write up the enhancement though. So we can maybe use that as a starting point. Yeah, we can split the work if Charo can also help out maybe I would, I would like to, I would like to have a situation where not every work is only on one pair of shoulders. Because you don't, we don't want to wait. Yeah, always forward, always forward. Don't wait for anything like a train. Yeah, I think what my goal is, is if we can get the enhancement request put in and the ones that have other communities around them, that we work with those communities as well. So maybe the service mesh folks or whatever it is, but I think what we need is that starting point and that list. Yeah, we can use the next time to go through those and see where we need to reach out to people because the one thing that I'm a little concerned about is because their operators come and go and we are going to get more and more of them. Is that if we're holding the bag. Excuse me for maintaining the community versions for okay D and we don't have a connection to that. We're going to be in trouble. Yep. I mean, it'll be a repeat of before is which was we don't want that. So essentially what at least for the enhancement proposal what I want to make sure that all the at least the red hat. Made operators that all of them get released or okay D by their teams so we as a worker group don't have that additional work because we won't be able to do it. We won't be able to go into every operator and fix it up and then also maintain that for all releases. That's the thing the teams have to do themselves. It's essentially like packaging. You have to they have to release all that platform right and they have to do by themselves. One thing that I think would be and one thing that would be nice to see would be on the fedora side like giving people the tools and tutorials and things like that for being able to build operators because like I want to build an operator and I have literally no idea how to do it and all the documentation I read makes me more and more confused on how to do it and it's just I feel lost in the sea of. Buzz speak and confusion and technical confusion and that's not helpful. And in order to help better support having a larger community of operators, we should make sure that that is something that people can feel self sufficient in learning how to do this. Yeah, well, and the other thing is I can reach out to the operate. I also do community work for the operator framework folks. Once we have a there there, you know, we know what that hackfest is, we can get people like Michael Revnick, the Josh Woods J dobes who wrote the book on operators to come and participate in that. And so it's not on the okay D working group. Those guys are all three of them are awesome resources. And I think better teachers might Matt Dorn is another one that I've had come and teach at the Commons, how to build an operator and all they have to do is flex a little muscle to get it to be how to build an operator for okay D. Exactly. I think we should really provide that documentation and together with fedora make make that a clear path, but we have to draw the line somewhere between the okay D working group and the operator have a special interest group. For example, those would be the ones you may be wanting to approach for getting operators onto the platform. Well, okay D the working group. We're really just working on the core operators which are part of open shift. So anything else is like a feature we will not support from our side, because it's just not our realm here. Obviously, we want people to use that but yeah we're really focused on the core. So from my perspective, the way I think that that should evolve towards this. There should be a corresponding fedora SIG or team or whatever that is actually focused on building up fedora as a platform for making operators and supporting applications and stuff like that because the container SIG will help make it possible for people to have the the the ingredients they need to run applications on a fedora platform, but having the, the, the, the tooling to produce things to run those applications in in open shift or okay D or wherever or Kubernetes, whatever you want to call it. We don't have a specific group for doing that and the operator framework if it's going to build a community if you want to like, seed a community development and interest in this particular pattern of running services and infrastructure on on Kubernetes platforms. That's probably a place to start and so if there is going to be some kind of community there, maybe a SIG that's connected to fedora to do that would help make it so that it's a lot more accessible. But what is so special about running operators on fedora we are, we are using the operator framework since two, two years now. Nothing, there's nothing special. I think, I think what I would like to take a step back here for a second is I just think it's education and documentation. Okay, I don't. I'm not positive you need a fedora operator SIG. The main cause let me just finish. Okay. Red Hat has donated the operator framework, the SDK and the OLM side of things is all part of the CNCF and is an incubated project. So there will be SIGs over there for fedora people to join and they can create a subset there if they need to rather than a fedora operator thing. And I know that's not normal mode, but that would be to me the natural place to make requests for more documentation and to donate that and to build awareness for fedora in the Kubernetes world would be a better way for doing community development and doing some collaboration in that space rather than doing something separately that might die on its own if it doesn't have care and feeding from the operator framework community. So here's my flip side of this leave in the fedora in fedora there are people who develop applications and services for running to support the fedora community. Right now, all of those things are packaged up and installed on different VMs. The thing is, they want those to move to being things that run on top of open shift for good or bad. There are no patterns. There's no procedures. There's no practices. There's nothing for how to do that. If you want people to be able to do that, you need it's not just that there has to be a community upstream.  I honestly doesn't matter. The problem is that you also need you need communities where people are actually doing work who are actually able to take advantage of those technologies. That's the reason why Linux distributions, while they like open Susan Fedora, they both use RPM. They both have their own packaging guidelines. They all do their own packaging stuff. But there's also the RPM upstream community where things that do make sense to put together there happen there. From my perspective, I see operators in the same manner. It's essentially the foundational aspect for delivering applications and services on a Kubernetes, for lack of a better phrase, operating system platform. Different communities are going to have different patterns, different styles, different guidelines, different tools. When I talk about with the container SIG and having people be able to make operators using those, the idea is that you take Fedora content and you build upon it and be able to make operators and stuff. And they would be pushed into Fedora registry that could even be pushed out to operator hub. That probably is a good thing to do. And there should be a liaison between the Fedora side and the upstream part. I'm not disagreeing with that part, but the problem is that without a way to distribute that community load, you have two potential problems. The first is there will be so many people in one spot that there is basically no way to give anybody any attention, which is what happens with Kubernetes right now. And that's why Kubernetes communities tend to splinter out and spread out and things like that. Or you start specializing in splitting and subgrouping and things like that. And that's the natural pattern that tends to happen already today. So you wind up having, you have an operator, you have a release SIG, which then has a sub SIG for XYZ thing. And those people just, it kind of fans out over time. And where that fans out doesn't matter if it's on CNCF side or the distro side or some weather else altogether. What I'm saying is that because we have all this, we have this nucleus of people that exist in the Fedora community to do these sorts of things. We should have them have the opportunity to be able to make these sorts of things. And with Fedora's upstream first ethos also help bring those and spread that back into the upstream project.  But we also need something to support a diverse set of applications and such. Because I firmly think that what we're going to wind up having is we're going to have so many operators from so many communities with different opinions and different structures and things like that. That it's just not going, it's not going to scale if they're all in one place. And so we need to make sure that the community is structured so that it scales out past that, especially if you want it to be successful. I agree and I have it's kind of like software packaging for Linux distros. And we'll have to make sure that Fedora packages its own operators because we just can't consume or we don't want to consume operators that aren't built with our guidelines elsewhere. They may work, but they're not, you know, not specifically made for the environment. Which is the reason why I want to get the Rata teams who specifically also release for Fedora CoroS based operators. And then all the other operators teams that we don't really have, you know, influence on here will have to convince because they'll have to. I think it's easiest if it comes from the upstream directly if the operator team that creates an operator that they have a few release artifacts they want to push out every time and Fedora CoroS specifically for OKD to be one of those. So that is really the goal. I mean, if that really works out, we wouldn't need the operator sync in Fedora because there wouldn't be nothing to do. All the upstreams would release for CoroS. But I don't, yeah, there is a little bit of a middle ground. Not all the operators will do that all the time and there will have to be volunteers to pick up that work. And that won't be, yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I'm not anti creating anything here. I just think there should be some liaison, as you mentioned, you know, to the operator DNCF SIGs that are just now being set up there. Yeah, I think we should get the container SIG started again first then send the liaison from them to the operator, maybe send a liaison from us there as well. And then see how we can grow that operators in Fedora environment. I think it's Clement's idea of doing the hackathon workshop. And, you know, Craig put in the link to the book that Josh and Jay wrote. I think we can get them to come and, you know, help teach the class and give away the book and talk about, you know, how to get involved in all of these other places. But also create some educational materials that are Fedora specific that address, you know, things that are Fedora CoroS, things that are OKD. And as a starting point, at the very least. I still don't understand why, what is Fedora specific about operators, sorry. Nothing. The point is that Fedora makes infrastructure applications, and there should be a home for those people to come up with a pattern of how to release them. And you release operators as container images, right? So we want them to be Fedora based container images. And those will be running Superfine on Fedora CoroS. The problem with having containers like Fedora containers is they won't necessarily run on older kernels because they assume the Fedora kernel to be present. So only from that version up, it's really supported.  Oh, jeez. Don't even go there. Like I've done that before. You get some very weird bugs when you do that. And on the other hand, we don't want to run, I don't know, Debian or any other container images on Fedora CoroS if we don't really have to. Because we have our own container system that is just out for running with the Fedora kernel with, you know, all the environment in place that the container assumes is there beneath it. Which is why we really want... UBI is a special case because it kind of just works on Fedora as well. But, yeah, and it... That's kind of the rel8 UBI universal-based image. So that works fine and is tested. But other than that, it should really be just Fedora container images running the operators or UBI. It could be both. But for Okini, it could be both. But you really want a container image that assumes you have a newer kernel there. And really the core of it is that because we're starting to have an open shift and there's this push from Red Hat and from other people that we should be running our infrastructure applications in open shift, whether it's a good idea or not is beside the point. That's sort of the thing that's starting to happen. We need to start having practices, procedures, guidelines and policies about how these things are made and released. Because without that, it's going to be insane. That's pretty much what it's going to be. And I don't want to make our admin's lives even worse than it already is right now. They're already having an unpleasant time trying to bring the community open shift back online. I don't want to think about how much worse it would be if they also had to try to figure out how to bring all the applications on top of it. And they all worked in inconsistent, weird ways that are not necessarily good patterns for handling those concerns. Because this is all new stuff. This is all new to everybody. And so there are very few people who understand what the good practices are and how this should work and how this is optimized for this case and that case and whatnot. And every application is different. And that's why it helps to be able to have that sort of thing, both upstream in the CNCF side, as well as handle Fedora specific things in the Fedora level for Fedora application. Yeah. So I think, like I put a link into the most recent operator intro workshop that Matt Dorn and Michael Revneck, they've been doing these workshops for all different flavors. Whether it's internally, externally, at different things, asking them and Jay Dobies. And we have four great people who basically are just spending their time now teaching people how to do this. And we definitely will work with Clomet to get them to help with the hackathon and just record their content and have it be Fedora specific or aimed at a Fedora audience. Probably is a better way of putting it. And then, you know, and then we can, and then, you know, spinning up the Fedora operator one, what we did for the operator while we were incubating the operator framework was we hosted and we have been doing this for the besides you guys work with them on a regular basis and then incubating, hand holding all of the different everybody from Cystig and Falco to a bazillion people writing operators and getting them to put them in operator hub.io in in the operator hub that's embedded in OpenShift. And we had to do a whole lot of hand holding and that's been going on for the past two years. So these guys now have it down to a science. How to teach it and, you know, and they can flip over to whatever the specific platform is or operating system or ecosystem that they're working in on a dime that you know so it's it's not like we don't have people to do this we just need the connections and a date and a place to do it. So I think you're on the right path Christian reaching out with Clement and connecting there. So for the ones that are Fedora specific Fedora community people want to have to run on OKD, we can we can we can manage that that's a that's a knowable, solvable problem. Maybe it's not not a great idea to add fragmentation there on the Fedora side by creating yet another stick, maybe the container stick can also be the because it's the same realm anyways. Yeah, we just need a place in the Fedora land where where this documentation and you know this knowledge building and sharing. So that for that that side of it. So when you're talking with Clement mentioned Matt and Michael and Jay and and Josh and let's connect all those dots there and I can help with intros or whatever. The other piece of it is supporting your request to the Red Hat engineers team to make sure that they do that and so we'll have to. There'll be some internal stuff that I'll have to help negotiate, I hope, and I don't feel like it's going to be that hard of an ask because there's a lot of automation involved. So it might be just that so there's this sort of 2 sides to this coin and and what you're going through with Fedora. We have gone through with everyone who's in the certified operator program at Red Hat. Everyone who's in the community side of things that are doing upstream project. Yeah, these guys got it so it's I know we can solve this so and and I want to solve it in a healthy good connected way with Fedora that grows both sides of the fence and maybe. Yeah, and for for OKD specifically we don't always need Fedora operators. So as I mentioned before the UBI ones are expected to work. So for most dreaded operators they won't even need to change big things in their operators they just need to make sure they. They respect the limits of the boundaries that Fedora CoroS sets them and I think the biggest one is that we don't have Python on the host in Fedora CoroS we do have in rail CoroS so many operators still assume that and won't therefore work on Fedora CoroS. So if we make them, I think we just had the bird, which one was it? Cube bird operator fixed for that and that's kind of the thing I want to see here I don't want to add X to work for them to release really a second. Operator build on Fedora they just have to make sure that the operator, the one they release will also work on OKD and will also be added to the catalog on you know we that we ship with OKD. Yeah, so let's get that enhancement request in get that you get it logged posted. To the mailing list when you do so that everybody can give it a thumbs up and you know vote for it. Yeah, the other thing that's parked that for a little bit. The other thing was the Azure images for Fedora CoroS. I sent around a tweet yesterday should try and find it again to try and get people to upvote that so that it gets on the radar. Do you think that this helps because I understand that Azure Microsoft already has a documentation page in preparation for Fedora CoroS. But the lawyers are talking to each other and I don't know if it helps to have a poll. If lawyers don't agree to each other. Since eight months. It's three years. Three years. Okay, nice. It's been three years of arguing between Microsoft and Red Hat. I don't understand that because it's it's it's yeah, it's the only major platform that does not support it. I don't understand what's the problem is. I think nobody understands that. Oh my God, like it's. Yeah, I think it doesn't make sense to talk about it because we cannot really change and we can't everybody knows about it. Yeah, all of us who have actually been burned by this problem all know the details and we can't talk about it. It's kind of a secret maybe maybe the solution is Voldemort I don't think because nobody is allowed to talk about it. Oh, I mean there's definitely some kind of taboo on it but like the best thing that I can the best thing that we can do is ask Diane to like poke somebody with a stick to make this like go faster but like there the amount of potential success there is so low. But that's the best we can actually do and I'm not willing to talk about it in detail while this is being recorded. That is I think I have a I have a nicer topic to talk about. Okay, completely completely different. I'm, I'm desperately searching for a place where we can collect training material for for OKD, because I think there is a lots of people who made videos block entries but everything is spread spread around and I. Yeah, I would like would love to have a place where we can collect that I know that we must curate it entries will get old. I think the idea is that we would revise OK DIO to actually pull this off because I know Diane you've been working on adding a couple of sections to OK DIO for this sort of thing. So that might be the right place to put it. Yeah, so we had the week talked about this a couple weeks or a couple meetings ago creating a side page for cookbooks recipes. I didn't get to it. I went on vacation instead. But I'm happy to create that landing page and have, you know, whoever helped work with me and do that and give you guys some access to editing that page just like Joseph has done for me in the past. Yeah, because that's I think I think that's that's where and I and I love the I love reading back the cookbooks and recipes because I'm an old Python person. So, yeah, yeah, so that I think that's where I would like to see it live if people are okay with that. I'm actually totally fine with that. Yes, me too. So I'll put that back on the menu for the thing. I think I had it on the menu. I don't know where it went. I'm just super happy that we now have open shift install create cluster and that actually works now. That that's the part that I'm so very happy about. Yes, it would be nice if we would have a big, big button as it leads us to a different page where we can collect links and this would be fine. So it's not so spread around everywhere. I see your name is on this too. I'm just going to put it towards the top that I remember to do something about it between now and next week. So yeah, this is this is something that it's near and dear to my heart to and creating it in a way that it's updatable. Maybe a YAML file that's easy for people to add things automatically and just put the link in and a description. Something along that line. So just give us a little bit of time and we'll figure that out and start thinking about what it is that you'd like to see there. We may have to create a couple of templates so that there's some consistency in what we're delivering. But yeah, and part of it is, is also everything that we just did yesterday. I want to find a good home for that on the OKD landing page too. So maybe an okd.io videos page or deployment, whatever. But anyways, we do have to do that and I my graphic skills as everybody knows is from MS paint period of time when I spent time with MS paint. I know there's probably a Fedora equivalent, but I missed that. But yeah, I'm not a great artist here. So yeah, any help that people want to do or mockups of what it might look like would probably be helpful. Wireframes appreciated and then we can figure out that. So let's start a side project on that. Maybe Charo and Joseph and I can think about that. Yes, for sure. Move that move that forward. All right, so we got 12 minutes left of what was supposed to be for me a very short meeting. And it obviously means that I'm not downloading any of yesterday's videos. So I'm not actually moving anything forward at the moment. Is there anything else that we should talk about? And I would just ask once you have the update from Clement Christian. Could you post something to the working group so that we don't wait two weeks to hear what the next step is? Yeah, yeah, I think we should maybe start off that process. I think it's a new to find a date because I think the doodle thing was met for for this week. This week is happening. So this week ain't happening. So I'll just tell him and then I may just write an email to him, Matt Dorn, Michael Rivnak and you Diane and Vadim to make all our internal folks. Set up and then we can kind of include J Dobies and Josh Woods to the course. I'll put the names in here. Yeah, if you could send me the names again, I'll just send out something like I'll do that tonight so we can hopefully plan something this week and then publicize that in the coming days. Yeah, all right, I will do that. Okay, if I could. On the subject topic is anything happening with the samples operator, which is still failing if you don't have the full secret that actually caused my recent update to be in a failing state. What the container six stuff is supposed to help fix. We don't have anything to put in there that that's kind of the problem.  I don't know if we can change the default setup so that doesn't get activated, but it's not actually required for a functioning okay D system. So not just not prevent an upgrade if we remove it or set it. It doesn't, it doesn't force it back on. It's only installed by initial provision but once you remove it it or disable it or whatever. Everything stops caring, because you didn't break anything. It just, it'll just update what's already present. What I did versus samples there. Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll post in the chat or are you on slack. I've got a little shell script I put together that when I deploy one if I want to get all of the templates that the samples operator would load, I extract all of those templates, then cherry pick the ones that I care about. And then change the, the container link to one that it can actually retrieve without a secret and then and then manually load those into the main space and they show up in the catalog. Yeah, you feel like that should be done automatically. Yeah, yeah. But there's a workaround. It's not fun and Charles is your rook still working with the latest upgrade. Yeah, I'm running 15.4.2. I think is, is what's running. Yeah, because I got this mysterious mess air saying that you know storage, not supported. For the storage operator it says unsupported platform for storage class creation after the update. Interesting. Oh man. Might be an issue. The man. Okay. You should file an issue on the okay to repo so that charo can figure it out. Yeah, thank you. I think charo you're the only one of us that has a functioning like wrote set up on top of. Okay, I'm living entirely off of emerald storage because I don't have money. Yeah, no, no, I set it up off of charo's blog and it works like a charm. Oh, you know, you know what I've, if you look at the, the iPixie branch. I actually need to push an update because I'm using a newer version of rook stuff now. So it may be that if you're still using the older version of rook stuff that's included in my GitHub page, that might be the issue is there may be that broke with a newer 4.5 and that older version of rook. And I based it off of your, your GitHub page sort of, you know, suitably changed for my configuration. Okay. But that was like a couple of revisions ago. Living on the edge. I'm, I'm up to my eyeballs in new employee training for the next couple of weeks. They gave him the red hat already what else did you want.  I did mine in like two days eight years ago. Like it was like hey, look at you. This is open shift. Have a hat. Bye. Bye. Here's some beer. It was much more than that. It was more than that even. But it flew by. So I think I was on premise and rally for two days. Then I flew back to Canada. Anyways, I do have to jump. Today at here, I sent you the email Christian and I CC'd charo and that team as well. So to start the thread internally with the operator framework training training people. They may all barf over it now that I've volunteered them all, but they've been told. So we should be able to get something going pretty quickly with climate. Again, we'll see everybody in two weeks, but do pay attention to the mailing list. And if, you know, if we get something in earlier than two weeks from now with comments set up, I doubt that, but we'll, we'll just make another call and add hot call. All right, can I let you all go. Yes. Thank you. And go back to just lacking with the coupon people now. All right. Take a wiped out from yesterday. Still tired. As you all should be. Yes. Thank you. I woke up early for that. That was a little surprising. Yeah. Okay, Brandon. Nice to see you all here and keep on keep on okay being. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Take care. Thank you. See y'all. Bye.


I pulled Gojira on a single? YouTube title spoilers? YouTube title spoilers- WOOOOOO! How's it going everybody? Dottodoy here and if you couldn't already tell, the time has finally come to return to Dragon Ball Legends. Usually I like to do this when there's something exciting going on. Maybe a few characters drop, this time there's really only one. And that is the first Summonable Ultra Unit, the hardest unit to pull in the game, Ultra Super Gojira. This character looks absolutely insane as he should, with how difficult he is to pull. That is why we have also brought Nanogenics here today, the Summon alongside us. Hopefully we can steal some of his luck. But with that said, if you enjoy the Legends video, definitely make sure to leave a like and let me know down below in the comments. But other than that, I just want to get into it right away. I want to see if we can pull this thing. So let's go. Let's start these summons. Nano-yo! YOOOOO! So it's time! I'm going straight in on this Gojira Summon. I- I'm not waiting anymore, Nano. Oh, you still- you're still going over there. I didn't even- I didn't even hear you. Yeah, I didn't even hear you, bro. Wait, were you- were you talking? Yeah, bro, I didn't- I didn't know. Hold on, bro. Because it was because I was so focused on Gojira. Oh, did you- did you- Trading blows with free- Yeah, well, I'm gonna say- the way I'm gonna do it is I'm gonna do the intro, like, after the fact. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess you're gonna say that. That's the bad of life. No, I had no idea. Damn! Wait, didn't I- I was- I was belting it out, brother. I was- I was here. Didn't I start with a Super Saiyan 3 animation on your channel? I guess the only difference is gonna be the Gojira pull-up. Oh, you're like summoning. I- I- Oh my gosh, we're like in a video right now. No, no, you are behind- No, no, you are behind the times, bro. Look at the bottom of the screen. You don't see that progressing red bar. Bro, you- Bro, yeah, bro. Act accordingly, man. Baby Vegeta? My bad. Oh, my bad. My bad, my bad. What about- what about a Baby Vegeta in, uh, in Fighters? You just want the- The OG Baby Vegeta. Yeah. Step number two. Hold on, Nan- Are you on step number one right now? Yeah, give me a dotto. I'm gonna wait. Dude, let's- let's do this step number two together.  It's impeccable with you. So much the fact that, uh, he's almost done. He's almost retired from this banner, from this Gojira lifestyle. And, you know, props to him. You love to see players exit the game eventually. Nothing- nothing's as great as a good requirement, Nan-O. I'm ready to hit yes. Tell me when, dotto. It's when. It's when right now. I'm going in. Did I see a misclick, dotto? I misclicked, I missed it, but, you know, I'm hoping Gojira doesn't mind, uh- Dotto, this is not like you to miss inputs like that. It's actually extremely like space? The final frontier? A little tough to breathe out here, but I think I'm doing pretty well. I was an amic looking down there, Nan-O. Ha ha ha ha! Why- why are you going down to me like that? I'm sorry, bro, cause I- I do not have nearly as many- Oh! Broly in space? This may keep all the way from Planet Vompa, dude. Wait, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Am I going to get another UI Goku?  I mean, this is cool. Bro, imagine. Cause I- I can't take another UI Goku, dude. I- I've seen so many UI Gokus. You won't make my entire year if this is a UI Goku right here. Surely this is an LF Sparking Fake Out Ultra Supreme edition. Hold the pickle. Ultra Supreme. I mean, it's gotta be, right? Is this a fake out? Mmm, that wasn't even the- Oh well. Oh no, it's UI Goku. Can it at least be Super Saiyan 4 Gojita? Please! Okay. I mean, that's fine. Dude, I- I started bargaining cause I got so desperate. At least it was a UI Goku. Oh my goodness, we dodged a bullet on that one. Who's next? Napa? Ooh! I don't know why I was convinced that I was going to be a fake out. I thought- I thought that was Gojita for sure. A- a character and fighters that would be really cool would be Bergamo, but with a Basil and Lavender- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Assist type characters. That'd be really cool. It would kinda hit. It would kinda hit. I saw somebody post like, what could be his intro where he just points at the other guy. I thought that would be pretty funny. Speaking of fighters, and I know that this is not a Dohan video and this is just all over the place, but I've had a couple of people, a lot of speculation, right? And that's just so much fun, right? Speculating what to do with fighters next and what to do with all these things. So one of the things, of course, Dohan's 7th anniversary and some people think what they might do is the finale of the fighters, right? The Gojita Blue, the S.J. 4, Gojita. I would say Legendary Finish, the dramatic finish. Mm-hmm. And that- they might be the headlighting units for Dohan yourself. Oh! That would be pretty sick. I guess I could see that. You got a capital match on my U.I. Gofus. One thing to mention on your channel is that Dohan loves to take inspiration, especially when the animations have already been done from the show from the game. So we've got animations from fighters, animations from Kakarot, and so it would be really, really cool if they could do that and take some inspo from the dramatic finish of the two Gojitas because that is one of the coolest things in any of these games period ever. Yeah, I think I've seen a lot of their animation. By the way, this was one of the most painful multi summons I've ever- Now that there's a fake out for sparkings, every time I see a sparking, I kinda clench my entire body. So that one was really painful. But I did get this Goku. This Goku was like my favorite unit in the game at one point. That is a really, that is sort of actual really cool Goku. I, at the time, dude, at the time he was crazy cool. But now he's kind of, you know, he fell off got ratioed. Yeah. Yeah. It's just unfortunate. I think we need a new Kyle Ken Goku to replace him for the time. Oh snap. Nano, you getting LF? I'm probably gonna get an LF. We all get an LFs. Amen. We just eatin' out here. You get an LF. You get an LF. You get an LF. Let's go. Why not, bro? Why not spread the LF well? I'd rather get an Ultra. I'm not going to lie to you and say that that's not something I would like. But go ahead. Kick that out of the atmosphere, Nano. Don't let Broly attack you like that. Starting things off slow with the train. The first time I saw that animation was just like, there's something below. Instant Transmission Goku. Mm. That's a unit. Oh gosh. Lord Slug. Dada, what are your thoughts on a Lord Slug DLC character for Fighters? You know what? I wouldn't be opposed to it because I kind of like the idea of getting more in the mech in the game. Am I faking out into an LF? No, you're crazy. I don't think so. Yo, D'Bora, that's good. I bet D'Bora is somewhere in your top 10. I don't know. For Fighters, dude? I don't know. This dude once, Raditz and Zarbama. Somehow, D'Bora is a reach. People really do like. Oh, there you go. That's only like seven stars, dude. Only, huh? But yeah, people really like D'Bora. I don't know if you'd be my... Oh, you know what? Why are we dodging? Let's get Super Boo in Fighters, dude. Super Boo's not in Fighters. Oh yeah, Super Boo, dude. Super Boo needs to be actually... They actually did like soft de-conf... I remember when Kid Boo did Human Extinction Attack and they showed that in a magazine, I was like, damn, it's like that. I was like, because that's like Super Boo's, you know? Yeah, that's, I mean, that's his brother. But I was like, all right, so he just got de-confirmed. But they could, yeah, Boo Han, they could do Boo Han or Boo Tanks. Or they could even just do Super... Oh, because we're both gonna get Kochitas. I mean, is it really that hard to... You know, when I wrote this... Dude, if we'd have both got Krillin, that would have been something, let me tell you. Well, we're saving it for when we both get Kochita on the last pull of this string. Man, oh, you're doing it early, you're doing it early, oh. You scared. If you would have pulled Kochita, that would have been the end of the video. What is it? Yeah, let's play this a race, actually. First one to get Kochita ends the video. It... I get so scared when I see fake out. I kind of, you know, I kind of like that idea. Hang on, as I'm diving into step two, are you on step one, are you on step two as well? Yes, I am. It's a race, bro. I've got to go as fast as we can. As soon as Kochita pops up and you do your celebration, that's the end of the video. One minute later. Dude, step two is a lot. I just got to assume that step two is just a made-up piece of fiction. Probably up there with the likes of Lord and the Rings, the God of War games, just they find work of fiction, Star Wars, just everybody's favorite pieces of fiction. Step two is like right up there in the upper echelon. You know, of all of the Gojitas that I personally pulled as someone who has pulled in many a times. And there is a lot of them. Yes, not once, I think, was on step two. Yeah, it's a work of fiction, dude. It's actually, it's not real. It's fake, not this time. I think this, I mailed the record for most hero summon in the video. That's great, bro. I mean, there you go, that's your title. Oh, hey, Jiren. Please tell me I'm on step one. Oh no. Oh, no, dude. What's up, what's good? I can't make it to step two. I folded. Is this, is this where the, is this, is this where you learn the tricks, the trade really quickly? I hope not, dude. It's, you don't, you don't need to, Dotto. You know what? You don't need to. Are you going to end the video? No, I'm going to end the video. You're going to end the video. Step one. You know what? Oh, I just have to have faith. You're right. All I need is faith. At some point along the journey, I just lost faith. But now, now I think I got it back. Oh, Gita, where are you at? A Yamcha. Can I get the next one? Jace, how about the next one? It's a Zamasu. The next one, another hero Vegeta. Following that, an extreme Majin Buu, good addition, a Cyberman. A lot of heroes here, a Trunks. I mean, there's got to be one guarantee, Sparky. And an Android AT. I don't know if you noticed this, but you didn't pull an Ultra in that, in that summon. Yeah, I know.  I don't know if you knew that, but. Yeah, I was really hoping for a, you know, there's, oh, wait, wait, I got it. I don't need more, but I need our single. No, Dotto, no, dude, don't go down.  Sorry, Neno. But singles are where the best luck is. You know what, I was talking about this, but gotcha game YouTubers, they've just, they've forgotten the true path of single videos. Just do fun single with the boys, where you're not guaranteed a Sparky. Every, every round is a true risk. And you don't, sometimes it doesn't pay off. Sometimes you get heroes dumb. I don't know why, but fun singles with a boy sounds like an ad that I don't want to hear about, you know. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Oh, it's a single, Neno. It's a single. Bardock, dad, Trunks, somebody help.  That's fine. I feel like, you know, it's a single. So single luck, single luck. This is a go, this is a gojita on a single. I pulled gojita on a single. YouTube title spoilers, YouTube title spoilers. Oh, yeah. Let's go. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. I don't think that's Goku or Vegeta. I think that's the one who's going to defeat you. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. I knew the singles with the boys there.  Damn, look at you be shining. How do you do that, gojita? I actually, dude, Dotto, I'm sorry. You have maybe one of the, like, this video's special, bro. Have they liked the video yet? Have they subscribed to the channel yet? I don't know, but they need to. I told you, but sometimes you just got to remember the OG way of the video. You know, people used to do singles. And that's fine. Because my luck stat is built different. Look at this, man. That was constructed differently. That was something, you know, when you're in a moment and history's being made, you don't realize it sometimes. I'm realizing it right now. That was actually insane. Damn, gojita built. That just looks different on my cellular divide. I'm going to pull another one back to back in singles. Boiler alert, it doesn't happen. But if it does, I mean, oh.  No, I thought the video. Wease, wease. Oh my god. No, no, I thought the video was over. Are you saying the video is not over? Am I going to have to do the gojita theme again? I don't know, man. I don't know. Hang on. No, I thought the video was over, dude. Are you serious, man? Are you going to finish gojita off? It would be quite crazy, actually, especially given that little CC I've spent. Oh, Yamaha, that's a good sign. Honestly. Oh, no. No. Oh, a different gojita. It's a good pull, but man, I just thought if I could match your energy, it'd be the coolest thing ever. But I can't. I'll do a single for the one time. A single for the boys, dude. I'll wait then. Oh, I don't think mine's going to be anything good. I'll still wait, because that's what the singles are, dude. Singles.  I'll wait, Nino, because truly, I believe that this could still be. That's fine, Nino. Don't roll your eyes, because you only got one pod. You just got to accept the moment for what it is, because it could be a fake out. It could be anything. Let's pull back and just. Small text and everything. Let's go three, two, one. Let's go. Single summons. You know, some magic could happen here. I'm dying. Are you dying? Yeah. Oh.