Hi everyone, thank you for joining us today. I know we're getting a little bit of a late start so a little bit just after 11 o'clock. My name is Kyle Tweet. I'm the communications coordinator for the Vermont Department of Labor. I want to thank you for joining us. I'll introduce our speaker who I'm sure you are well familiar with by now are aware of wanted to give just a few minutes. So just as in terms of some housekeeping items that if you've joined us before, thank you again for joining us. So this is your first time. We thank you and hopefully we can provide you with some great information and the information that you all need. So again, today we're hosting our another virtual town hall. This session is specific to PUA claimants. So I know we've got a lot of questions over our previous town halls in reference to work search requirements for whether you're self employed independent contractor or sole proprietor just somebody who you know wasn't previously eligible for unemployment insurance before. Kind of COVID-19 and some of the the advent of some of the exceptions and loosening of restrictions, if you will, in terms of UI. But just in terms of what we'll go over today, as I mentioned, really just focusing on the requirements, you know some exemptions in terms of who has to and who doesn't have to in terms of PUA claimants complete the work search requirement. We'll also get to a number of your questions. We're going to be right. We're going to be here answering questions for about an hour today. I'll have Cameron Wood, our director of unemployment insurance answer a few questions or give a quick overview and then we'll jump right into questions. So just in terms of how today will flow, we'll have can give a brief overview and then jump into questions today's presentation as as all of our town halls have been will be recorded and added to our YouTube channel. Likely later this afternoon that can be those recordings can be found on our website at labor dot Vermont dot gov. So I guess just without further ado, I'd like to introduce Cameron Wood, our director of unemployment insurance here with the department. For those that are answering posting questions in the chat. Thank you so much. I will be monitoring those and adding those to the chat. Again, we're going to be focusing specifically on PUA today. If you have questions, not specifically about PUA will be I prefer you back to some of our previous town halls as well as our website. So cam without further ado, I'll send it over to you. Sure. Good morning everyone. As Kyle mentioned, my name is Cameron Wood. I'm the unemployment insurance director for the Department of Labor. I'm happy to be here to talk to everyone about work search in the PUA program. You know, I know we've done quite a few town halls over the past few days and weeks related to work search in general. And you know, I'm going to try to limit the conversation today to just focusing on PUA individuals who are filing in PUA and their specific circumstances. There will probably be a little bit of an overlap as far as, you know, COVID qualifying circumstances go, etc. But hope to hope to keep our conversation related to PUA for those that are filing in PUA. So if they need further information, they can go to some of our other webinars. But really, you know, I'll kickstart, you know, how I have similar in the other town halls, you know, we are excited to be here, you know, being able to re institute work search, you know, the I've mentioned in previous town halls, I'll mention again, you know, one of our primary focuses on the unemployment insurance division and the program is to help individuals get re employed, get back to full-time employment so they no longer need benefits through the unemployment insurance program. You know, we've had the work search suspended over the past 12 to 13 months as we've been navigating our way through this health pandemic and we are in a position now where all of the information we're receiving, jobs availability, vaccine rollout, governor's reopening plan is that we're in a position where individuals can and should feel comfortable going back to work safely. And so we are at a point in time where we can really re-institute this. For those who may know or may just want to refresher, you know, PUA is a new program. It was just authorized last year under the CARES Act. It stands for Pandemic Unemployment Assistance. And this is a program that was primarily designed to provide benefits to individuals who are not eligible for regular unemployment insurance. Unemployment insurance is generally there for employees, W2 individuals who lose their job through no fault of their own. And as you can imagine, when the governor issued his stay home, stay safe orders and many non-essential businesses were closed, there were a lot of individuals that do not fit into that bucket that were out of work, not able to do work, not able to run their business. Even some individuals who are W2 employees, but we're not eligible for unemployment for a given reason. And the PUA program was established to provide assistance to those individuals. And we've done so over the past, you know, 13, 14 months at this point in time. So there's a lot of questions about why we would require individuals to do a work search who are filing in the PUA program. That's one of the immediate questions that we received from individuals. If this is for self-employed and independent contractors, why are you requiring them to look for work? There's a few answers to that that I'll try to flesh out. First, that's not, the PUA program does not consist solely of self-employed individuals, sole proprietors, independent contractors. As I mentioned, there are individuals who are eligible for PUA benefits who may be considered a W2 employee and they just were not eligible for regular unemployment at a given time. And so we had to allow them to move over into the PUA program. Separate from that, you know, we really think it's appropriate to treat as best we can all unemployment claimants equally. So we do have exceptions for the work search requirement at this time for people who are self-employed and PUA, but we didn't think it would be appropriate to require individuals who are filing for regular UI to have to do a work search and not apply that somewhat equally to individuals who are filing in the PUA program. So at the end of the day, our rules for the most part will mirror each other. There are some slight differences, but for the most parts we're keeping the same COVID qualifying justifications to be exempt in each program. And we are the only real differences we're allowing individuals who are self-employed or independent contractors to be exempt from an actual work search, although they are required to do something to reopen their business. So with that, I'll kind of get into the specifics. I'll very quickly highlight the work search requirements because they are applied in the same way for PUA claimants who are required to do a work search. You're required to do three job contacts a week, and that went into effect with this week. Keep in mind that just like in regular UI, in the PUA program, you are applying your weekly claim that you're filing is for the prior week. So you're doing a work search this week. You're three job contacts this week, and you will report that information when you file your claim beginning Sunday, May 16 through Friday, May 21. And then as you continue to remain on unemployment or PUA, you would be filing your weekly claims and reporting your work search activities for the previous week. The work search requirement is to do three job contacts. Please keep in mind that you have to submit an actual application, picking up the phone and making a phone call to inquire whether a job is available is not enough. You have to actually apply for a job. If you call someone and ask if they're hiring and they say no, that would not be a valid work search. So you have to actually apply for a position in order for it to be considered valid. And if you want further information, you know, again, you can go to our webinars about what is a valid work search, but as a very general matter, that's how I would describe it. And if we get any specific questions about what constitutes a valid work search, Kyle, feel free to jump in and we're happy to flesh that out. Some things I want to acknowledge for PUA, so I'll kind of jump into the exceptions. I'll start with the COVID qualifying scenarios first because that kind of mirrors what we've done for the regular UI program. As I mentioned in my opening remark, you know, we feel that we are in a position where people can get back to work safely and they should be comfortable in doing so. We still require that employers adhere to all federal and state guidelines as it relates to the workplace in response to COVID-19. What we do recognize, though, is there are individuals who still meet a COVID-19 qualifying situation. You know, we are not entirely through this pandemic yet, and so we fully understand that there are individuals who remain in a vulnerable position and we're not going to require them to do a work search, an active work search at this time. We will be having conversations about what those individuals need to be doing to potentially get back to employment and we'll be rolling that out over the coming weeks. But for individuals who meet one of the COVID-19 qualifying scenarios in either UI or PUA, they're not going to be obligated to do a work search beginning this week. So what are those scenarios? It mirrors what we've put into the UI program. So at the end of the day, if you have been diagnosed with COVID-19 or you are experiencing symptoms of COVID-19, a member of your family has been diagnosed. You are taking care of a family member who has been you, I should say you, or you are taking care of a family member who has a significant health care risk and a significant underlying medical condition that puts you at risk of COVID-19. And that's been recommended by a medical provider that you remain out of the workforce at this time. You will not be required to do a work search. Let's see. If you are the primary caregiver for a child who's unable to attend school or another facility that is closed, it's a direct result of COVID-19, for example. These are all qualifying scenarios in the PUA program. And if you are checking the box that you meet one of these PUA qualifying scenarios, you will not be required to do a work search. So for everybody on the call, again, we're limiting this conversation to PUA.  And so if you are checking the box that you meet one of these criteria that I've identified, then you will not be required to do a work search for that week. So again, if you have been diagnosed or are experiencing symptoms of COVID-19, your family member is experiencing symptoms of COVID-19 or has been diagnosed. You're the primary caregiver for a child whose childcare or school is closed as a direct result of COVID-19 or you're unable to work because you've been advised by a healthcare provider to self-quarantine due to an underlying medical condition. These are all things that would, will not require you to do a work search. And when you go in and you file your weekly claim and you check that COVID qualifying situation, it will not prompt you to do a work search. So those are mirror each other from the UI program to the PUA program. Now keep in mind, you know, there, there are, I think we're up to 15 different PUA qualifying scenarios for the PUA program. So I've only listed off a few of them. So there are many other PUA qualifying scenarios that you can identify that you may be required to conduct a work search. For example, some of the qualifying scenarios are that you're an employee, but your hours have been reduced as a direct result of COVID-19, for example. So you're an employee, but you're only working part-time because of COVID-19. Or you've had to quit your job because your employer was not complying with the guidance provided by federal and state governments for workplace safety, for example. These are qualifying scenarios that mirror the regular unemployment insurance program. But there could be individuals filing in PUA under these qualifying scenarios who just were not eligible for UI. So in those circumstances, if you're checking those boxes, you could be, you will be required to provide three work search contacts in the same manner that you would if you were on regular unemployment insurance. So I'll pause there. I know the other very large exception that we get the most questions about regarding PUA are for individuals who are self-employed or independent contractors or sole proprietors. And we'll be transitioning into that. And I'll speak to that here in just a minute, but I will take a pause real quick, Kyle, and turn it over to you in case there's any specific questions that I can help address related to what we've talked about so far. Yeah, Cam, I guess in terms of some of the requirements, interestingly enough, so just for the benefit of those listening today. In terms of how I'm looking at questions as I have in previous town halls, I'm looking at the questions that are most liked. So there's a little thumbs up button, and that just helps me understand what all is important in our limited times this morning. So Cam, currently the most liked question comes from Warden. He's saying that he asked that essentially as a self-employed or independent contractor, if he is exempt from doing the work search, does he still need to create an account with Vermont Job Link? So I guess that the question, in terms of what individuals need to do before next week in terms of the exemptions and the actions. I know we are asking that anybody create an account in Vermont Job Link that wants to. But in terms of whether or not clients are required to do so. So pre-pandemic individuals who were filing on the UI program were required to also create an account in the Vermont Job Link system, which is our workforce development system. Keep in mind our workforce development division. They are there and ready to assist individuals in getting back to work, retraining different career opportunities. But they're also there to help individuals find jobs that are currently available throughout the state. So I just want to acknowledge that for any of the individuals who are on this town hall. If you are struggling to find work and you would like assistance, our workforce development division is available to help you find a job in your area. Separately for employers who may be on the call. If you are struggling to find employees in your area, our workforce development division can help to match individuals who are on unemployment. Or who have recently been laid off and connect you with those claimants. For example, with the recent coffee cup layoff, we had a lot of employers reaching out to us asking if we could assist in helping those individuals who had just recently been laid off. Connect them with those employers for openings in their place of employment. So workforce development division is really there to assist both claimants and employers. And I just want to take the opportunity to make that plug. If you are required to do a work search, you are obligated to create an account in the Vermont job link system because that is the department's job bank. And it has information available to you about jobs available in your area. And it is a requirement of the program that you'd be registered with an account in that system. We're in a little bit of a transition period. And so we are not going to obligate people that do not have to do a work search to create a Vermont job link account. But we strongly recommend it because for the individuals who are exempt from a work search because of a COVID qualifying scenario, for example, those exemptions are going to expire in the coming weeks and months. And for individuals who are on the town hall here, keep in mind that's one of the reasons we're trying to help assist now in getting people re-engaged into the workforce because A, the jobs are available, but separate from that. We recognize that a lot of these exemptions will be coming to a close. I can't tell you exactly when. But at some point under the governor's reopening plan, we hope to be back to without a state of emergency, for example, for individuals who are filing because they don't have childcare because the school is closed or because their daycare is closed. For school, the school year is about to expire. And so once the school year is over, that no longer becomes a justifiable reason that you're eligible for UI or PUA because your school closes every summer. And so our purpose is to try to get people re-engaged and to help them with re-engaging. So if you're exempt from doing a work search, let me get back to the question. If you're exempt from doing a work search, you're not obligated to create a Vermont job link account, but we would strongly recommend that you do so. And the moment that you are required to begin to look for work, you would be required to create a Vermont job link account. At this point in time, we are not requiring self-employed individuals or independent contractors to create a Vermont job link account because we're not requiring them to look for work because they have a business. And I'll get to it in a second, but they should be trying to re-engage with their business. So I think it's a good question. I hope I've answered it, but if you're self-employed or an independent contractor at this point, we're not requiring you to create a Vermont job link account. If that information changes in the near future, we will be sending that information out likely via email to claimants so they're aware. Thanks, Cam. Yeah, I think if you have any more detail, there are a lot of questions about, do I have to complete the work search? In my specific scenario, Ralph talks about being a self-employed or a self-employed sole proprietor who is 69, almost 70 and prefers to contribute to the economy. In terms of what this question is, a lot of other circumstances around individual scenarios. So I don't know if you have any more details to share. I think you were saying, getting to it in just a second. So just in terms of the requirements and exemptions and those kinds of things. So I'm happy to go through more questions if you'd prefer or if you have more details, we can go about it that way too. I'll try to talk about the first exemptions we've spoken about, the COVID qualifying scenarios, and then I'll transition into the self-employed exemptions and we'll go from there. Sorry, I'm making a note for myself. We get a lot of questions from individuals who are asking about their particular circumstance. And as much as I sympathize with individuals who are in these situations, they're looking for guidance, they're looking for answers. They want to know, am I required to look for work or am I not required to look for work? And while I don't want to come across as unsympathetic or uncompromising, I fully understand the concerns that people have. We are still in a pandemic and people are in situations where they're concerned about getting back to work and they don't want to lose their benefits. And so we want to try to provide as much guidance as we can. But at the end of the day, as I mentioned yesterday on our town hall, we're not healthcare providers, for example. And so I can't advise you on whether your underlying health condition is such that you are at a severe risk because of COVID-19. I believe Kyle, are you sharing this work search questionnaire screen?  So here's the questions that we're asking in the UI application. And again, on the PUA side, you would attest that you meet one of the qualifying criteria that matches this question. So on your PUA claim, the question is not going to be exactly similar. But what I try to inform individuals to say is, again, I'm not a medical professional. So I can't tell you if your underlying health condition puts you at a significant health risk due to COVID-19. A medical provider needs to advise you of that, whether that's your primary physician or someone from the Department of Health. If the Department of Health has reached out to you because they've instructed you to quarantine, obviously you meet that scenario. So I'm just trying to walk that delicate balance of, you know, I can't tell you whether you meet question number two. What I can tell you is that we ask the question yes or no. And if you have been instructed or you have a recommendation because of your serious health condition, your age, any situation, if you've been instructed that you have a significant health risk, if you contract COVID-19, then you're not going to be required to look for work and you would answer the question for that COVID qualifying scenario.  What I can tell you is the law and the qualification of PUA says that the school is closed as a direct result of COVID-19 or your childcare is closed as a direct result of COVID-19. I know for a lot of schools there's a hybrid model right now. And so if the school is open for an entire week and your child is going to school, then you would need to do a work search for that week. And if the school is open for part-time and that is prohibiting you from being able to do a full work search, then you can answer yes to that criteria. What I would advise you though is just that there's nothing that prohibits you from looking for work that fits your personal situation. There's nothing that prohibits you from looking for work that's virtual in nature, for example, or that allows you flexible hours. You know, you really need to do a work search that is reasonable for you. And so we want to be as flexible as we can, recognizing that the primary goal of unemployment is to get people re-employed. And if you have no interest in getting back into the workforce, then you're not eligible for unemployment or PUA, regardless of what exemption you have. You still need to be able to accept work if it's offered to you. So I hope that helps a little bit. I'm going to get into the self-employed independent contractors here, but the other things I'll comment are that just keep in mind, it's a self-attestation program. You know, we're asking you the question, do you meet this scenario? And if you answer yes, then you're not going to be required to do a work search. Just know that if we were to come back and do a review, then we would need you to be able to provide us with information that supports why you answered that question.   You know, if you have been recommended by a health care provider to not look for work because of significant health care risk, you know, just have something from your health care provider that says that and just keep it on file in case we run into that issue. All I can say is that if we do a review and you have indicated that you meet one of these criteria, we're simply going to ask you to provide us with some documentation that supports it. We want to be as flexible as we can, understanding the circumstances that we're in. But again, keep in mind, we have to balance this with the underlying tenant of the programs, which is to help get people re-employed. And again, all the information we have to date is that people can get back to work safely. And so we want to assist people in doing so. So I hope that helps. Again, I know it's a struggle because people want me to help answer their individual question. And, you know, unfortunately, I can't do that again because I'm in a lot of instances, I'm not a medical professional. So I can't tell you whether your underlying circumstances would qualify here. Yeah, and Cam, I think we can jump off in terms of to the, you know, PUA specific exceptions. Okay. I would say if anybody's looking for, you know, more information to refer back to our previous town halls. So I guess just referring to self-employed independent contractors, sole providers, Cam, you know, what are the specific exemptions and who needs to actually complete the work search activity. I think we've already addressed it, but just to kind of clarify it, folks. So when you applied for unemployment, we asked the question, are you self-employed? Are you an independent contractor? And we, if you answered yes to those questions, we then provided you with the PUA application. And so for individuals who have indicated that they are self-employed or an independent contractor, those individuals will not be required to look for work. But they will be required or they will be asked and they will be required to attest that they are actively engaging in activities to maintain their business or to reopen their business. And so again, we're trying to be as flexible as we can here. So there's no one-size-fits-all. There's no black or white answer. There's no silver bullet of what that means. What we're expecting individuals who are self-employed and independent contractors to do is to be actively engaged in economic activity to apply their trade to open their business, to expand their business. So they will not be required to do a work search. However, our system will indicate whether you are self-employed or an independent contractor based on your answers. And we will provide you with an attestation that will just be a yes or no. And it says, as a self-employed individual, are you actively engaged in activities to reopen your business full-time? And so some of the things we've talked to people about is soliciting new customers, actively promoting your business. But we want to be as broad as possible as we can.  So as long as you are taking steps to reopen your business or maintain your business as being open, then you can self-attest to that and you will not be required to do a work search. So I got a question from one individual on a previous town hall and it said, I'm self-employed, but I have no interest in reopening my business at this time. Unfortunately, then you would not be eligible for the program. So again, we feel that we're at a position now where individuals can re-engage in work search activities, reopen their businesses. Although there are still some limitations under the governor's reopening plans, we're in a position where the vast majority of businesses are able to open in some capacity. And so that's the expectation at this time. And Cam, I guess for those individuals, so those individuals are exempt. Is it pretty much just anybody else that's on PUA? Is it stating that they are self-employed and independent contracts? I guess who is it that actually will need under, that's a PUA claimant. Who is it that will need at this point? Because I know what we're talking about today is the current exemptions as passed down to us by the federal government, which obviously can change. It's in order to be eligible to receive PUA unemployment insurance. If you don't meet those requirements, obviously you're not eligible for the program, as you said. But who is it that at this point does need to complete the work search requirement in terms of that class of PUA claimant? Yeah, I'll touch on that. I'll also hit on a few questions I saw come up through the chat. Yes, the attestation will be a weekly, it will be added to the weekly PUA claim beginning Sunday. All of the work search requirements will be up online beginning Sunday for both regular UI and for the PUA portal. Somebody asked if their circumstances have changed since they filed for PUA. So maybe they need to change that they are now self-employed or an independent contractor. I apologize, I will need to get back to you on that question. I just want to acknowledge that it came through the chat. I think it's a great question and I'll need to follow up with our development team to figure out how we can go about addressing that. Please forgive me, but we'll try to make sure that information gets out. And that's one of the reasons we want to do these town halls is so we can gather some feedback. We can gather information from you all as the claimants to help address questions that we may not have thought of or we may need to tweak moving forward. So I appreciate that. To your question, Kyle, that you raised, essentially there are, again, there are 15 qualifying questions for PUA. Some of them COVID related that I've identified and the vast majority of the remainder of them. Unless you've indicated that you're self-employed or an independent contractor, you will be required to look for work because at that point you're indicating to us that you're an employee who has been laid off or who has had your hours reduced. And therefore those individuals we want to treat just the same as we are treating regular individuals on unemployment insurance. And so if you are an employee who has lost their job or have had your hours reduced, there are many qualifying criteria you could list in PUA, but we would require you to do a work search. I listed a few of them. I'll make comment of a few of them here. One of the questions is you were scheduled to commence employment and you do not have a job or you're unable to reach the job as a direct result of COVID-19. That was one of the qualifying scenarios. You had a job lined up, but it fell through because of COVID-19. If you are still using that as your COVID qualifying scenario for PUA, then you would be required to look for work, for example. One of the other criteria is you're an employee, but your hours have been reduced. I mentioned this earlier on the town hall. There are some individuals who've been moved to PUA because they are employees, but they weren't eligible for regular unemployment for some reason or another. And so they may be checking that box that they've had their hours significantly reduced and that's why they remain on the PUA program. Those individuals would be required to look for work. One of them is you've had to quit your job as a direct result of COVID-19. If you're not been identified as self-employed or an independent contractor, you would need to look for work. If you're using that as a COVID qualifying scenario in PUA, you've become the breadwinner or major support for the household because the head of household has passed away. Unfortunately, as a direct result of COVID-19, those individuals will need to look for work unless they've indicated they're a self-employed or independent contractor or unless they meet one of the other COVID qualifying scenarios. So again, the goal here is to make sure that we are treating as best we can similarly situated individuals the same. And so for the individuals who are filing in the PUA program who don't meet the COVID exemptions and they aren't self-employed or an independent contractor, those individuals will need to look for work. One other thing I saw in the chat was a little bit of frustration with our call center staff who may not be as knowledgeable about the programs. We fully understand that. We are doing everything we can on a daily basis to work with them, to train them, to help them be able to answer these questions. So please know that we do take that seriously. We do work with them on a daily basis to try to improve both our performance and their performance. We feel like they are an extension of the department and I apologize if you're in a situation where you feel like you're not getting as informative of service as you need. And there is a questionnaire at the end of if you call or reach out to our Maximus Call Center agents and I would just ask you to fill that out because we do use that as feedback to try to work with our vendor to always look to improve. Thanks, Cam. I do want to get into definitely into more into the chat regarding some of the questions. Seeing a number of questions about somebody asked, I'm self-employed and completely shut down and don't think I'll be able to reopen. And I've been looking for work and I actually can't find any jobs that I think I qualify for. The individual says that they're 60 years old. You know, what do I need to do? You know, I think this is really a great opportunity to highlight, you know, workforce development and, you know, to contact them if you have questions. I know that, you know, Lynn asks, you know, what are, you know, how can workforce development help me as a self-employed business owner?   You know, Cam, I'll send it over to you just to provide some more detail, but certainly, you know, just in terms of opportunities for you as a self-employed, if you're looking for those part-time jobs that can help meet, you know, this gap while you are not working, certainly can, our teams can help you connect to different resources across the state. Yeah, let me, you know, try to go through that. I also, again, I'm able to kind of follow the chat slightly, you know, when I'm able to take a pause. So a few things I wanted to comment on. Excuse me. One of the comments was, is computer education support available? And I assume you're asking if it's available through us as a department, through our workforce development division. And absolutely, these are, you know, that's one of the things that, you know, individuals can reach out to our workforce development division to assist them in all aspects of trying to upscale themselves or get back to work or, you know, change career opportunities if that's what they would like to do. So I just wanted to comment there that if we're not able to assist in those situations, we can also help refer you to a partner agency who can help you, you know, get those skills necessary to continue to be competitive. If you were asking if that would qualify you as a self-employed individual under the expectation that you're taking activities to reopen or make yourself more competitive if you're an independent contractor, absolutely. I mean, again, we want to be as flexible as we can. So one of the comments I see that came through was, for consideration of managing freelance requirements, you do contact at least three potential clients per week. If you've indicated that you're a self-employed or an independent contractor, know that we're not requiring you to do at least three contacts. I think it's great if that's what you're doing. We would just require you to attest that you are continuing to take steps necessary to get back to full-time employment. So if you're an independent contractor and you're contacting three clients every week to submit bids or to seek out employment opportunity, I think that would be great. And please know that we're not asking you to identify the specific individuals in that scenario, but I do think that would qualify, if you will. So another question that came in was PEUC versus PUA. And I just, I think that was a question I wanted to at least take the opportunity to do to identify. PEUC is an extension of regular unemployment. And so if you are filing for PEUC, you are more considered in the unemployment insurance sphere, if you will. You're not on PUA.  Keep in mind you're eligible for up to 26 weeks during a calendar year or a benefit year on regular unemployment, and then PEUC gives you an extension from there. So the work search requirements would apply to you unless you meet the COVID qualifying scenarios for UI. And I would refer you to the previous town halls we've done. The PUA is for individuals who do not qualify for regular unemployment insurance and have been moved into the PUA system to be eligible potentially for benefits there. So if you're on PEUC, you're by definition not on PUA. So I'll take the opportunity to talk about some of the other options that we have available in some of the services we can provide through the Workforce Development Division. Our Workforce Development Division, again, it's there really to assist people in getting back to work and upskilling themselves, supporting businesses and trying to find employees. So, you know, if I think the specific question you identified Kyle, if you're an individual who there's no job opportunities in your area that you feel that you would qualify for, you know, we can help you. We can work with you to help get the training or the certificates necessary to then qualify for those jobs if that's what you're seeking. You know, I tried to go into a lot of detail on our previous town hall yesterday about the services we can help provide to people in those situations. If you've, you know, again, I try to be sensitive because I know there are people and some claimants have reached out to me and I absolutely appreciate it. You know, they're helping me understand the different situations that people are in. There are some people who are in a situation where they have a career, they have training, they have certificates, they're in a profession, they want to remain in that profession. And there's just not, there's no jobs right now because maybe there's still government restrictions in place for that profession. And so I don't ever want those individuals to feel like I'm telling them that they need to go find a different career opportunity. That's not the case, you know, but what can we do to help you upskill yourself during this period? Or is there a job that you can find to be a stopgap in between now and when you can go back to your profession or your trade? Workforce Development Division can help you in either of those situations, but there are also other people who may not have, you know, skills that will get them into a career opportunity that will be beneficial for them or, you know, keep them in a position where they don't have to come back into the UI system. So there are many of people out there who may want to change careers at this point in time. You know, in the past they didn't have the opportunity to really switch careers and do something that they would actually rather do differently. And so our workforce, this may be the time for those people is where I'm getting out to change a career opportunity to go get a training class or a certificate or a CDL, you know, something to that level. This may be the opportunity to do that. And our Workforce Development Division can assist you in doing that. In most instances, they can help pay for the training. They can help pay for all the equipment you would need. They can help find you a job once you've completed the training that you can go into. So our Workforce Development Division is there and available to help people in that situation. The best part about it for unemployment purposes is if you are in an approved training course or program, you can be exempt from having to do work search either for regular UI claimants or if you're required to do work search for PUA claimants. So, you know, at this point in time, it may be a good opportunity for you to reach out and see what opportunities are available in a different field, and then we can help you get the training necessary to transition you into that. So that's really why I bring that up. And so, you know, know that if you don't have jobs available to you or in a given field or profession, or if you want to stay in your field or profession, but you know, you don't have a job available right now. You can work with our Workforce Development Team to try to find some training opportunities for you that you can conduct right now. And you won't have to do a work search while you're doing those training opportunities and you can continue to receive your unemployment while you're doing that. So I think, you know, that's really what I would like to highlight as the support that our Workforce Development Division can provide to you. Yeah, Kim, I just wanted to jump in. There were some questions about some specific kinds of training, whether it's, you know, learning how to, you know, computer skills and those kinds of things. I'm not sure if those would be classified under this, but it's certainly something our Workforce Development Team can help answer and point you in the right direction of what trainings might be offered that you're looking for to help you upscale. There was a question too about the self employed program. If you're looking to become self employed and get your self employed business started. If you don't have a ton of information available on that, I think we can certainly point to, you know, look for more information, you know, on our website in the coming weeks. I don't think we have much up there at this point. Question to Kim about, can you talk about actors and artists who have received 1099s from performances and sales of artwork. Since many venues and galleries are either closed during the process of reopening, what do they do about this requirement? I think this really just points back to what you were just talking about.  I don't know. I don't want to speak for you, but certainly if you have more to add to that as well or correct me if I was wrong in any way. No, I don't think you were wrong at all. A few things there. I mean, for starters, I've seen a few questions come in related to part time work. We would treat it the same as we would in the UI program. If you're working part time, then you can, you can count the part time work as a job contact each week. You know, the, the, we want to incentivize people to take job opportunities that are available to them, even if it's not full time work. And so what we do is we have one of the most generous disregard wage disregards in the country. What does that mean?  We take 50% of your earnings and we, we totally disregard them. We don't count it against you for your weekly filing. We take the other 50% of your wages and we deduct that from your benefits dollar for dollars. So if you earn, you know, $400 in a week will disregard 200 will take the other 200 and deduct it from your weekly benefit amount. So you can still earn unemployment while you are working part time. The benefit there too is you would still be eligible for the $300 weekly benefit amount. So, you know, your $300 supplemental benefit that's being provided under the CARES Act doesn't go away just because you're working part time.  So please know that those incentives are there. There is a program that we offer. It's called a self-employment assistance program. As Kyle mentioned, we're trying to gear up and get information gathered to support it and get it out to claimants. You know, unfortunately, things are just they're they're they're different under, you know, COVID right now. And so it's we're trying to figure out how this how this program will fit given the current circumstances that we live in. And what the self-employment assistance program does is it allows somebody who is not self-employed. So you were a W2 employee who's trying to establish their own business moving forward. And it allows those individuals to not have to look for work during that period that they're establishing their business. And it also allows them to continue to file for unemployment and be supported during that period. So I would just advise claimants here that, you know, be on the lookout because we will be sending more information out about this. But, you know, if you are looking to start your own business during this period, you know, we'll need to gather a little bit of information from you about what you're doing to start that business. And we'll probably need to work with you on an ongoing basis while you continue to file for unemployment to ensure that you're taking the appropriate steps. But there is that program that allows people to start a business during periods like this and allows them to continue to collect unemployment during that process. So, you know, unfortunately, it's just we're trying to, you know, we're trying to roll that out at the same time that we're addressing the current circumstances of dealing with the pandemic. So I don't have all the information available right now on that. One other thing I just wanted to mention real quick, Kyle, because I've seen a few questions come up and I'll kick it back to you for any closing questions you want us to address. I imagine there's a lot of concern. I've seen a few of the questions here about some states ending unemployment benefits, including the $300 weekly benefit amount. We have not had any conversation at this point in time about ending these programs. And so I just want to, to the best that I can understand that I'm the UI director. A conversation would generally start with the administration if that were to happen, but you know, all the indications that I have are there is no intention at this point in time of ending these programs. So I just want to try to alleviate any concerns from people in that regard and know that we absolutely would be required to provide a pretty significant amount of notice if that were to happen. I think, you know, I can't speak specifically legally what the notice would be. But I think the other states that have done this as I checked yesterday, I think there were up to four. They're having to provide at least a 30 day notice to terminate the program with USDOL. So just to understand that at this point in time, those programs are set to last through the first week in September and end on September 4th. Again, reasons that we're trying to help individuals, individuals who are on the PUA program, individuals who are on the PEUC extension for UI, you know, these programs are set to expire in the coming months. And so we want people to have as long as a runway as they can to try to get back to to re-employment. Yeah, Kim, that was actually going to be my question. So you took the words out of my mouth in terms of, you know, what the just in terms of what the end date for PUA would be currently, which is, you know, September, as you mentioned. So thank you for addressing that. I don't know, Kim, if you have any final thoughts, I know we're we got a couple minutes left here.  I know we're currently in the planning process for actually setting up some similar town halls to this for workforce development specific programs. So just keep an eye in here. We'll be announcing those publicly as soon as we have some dates and some topics finalized. But I would imagine those would be over the next few weeks, you know, as as work search is re-instituted and you have to report it and all of those different things. So just keep an ear out for that. But Kim just didn't know if you had any final thoughts as it relates to work search and for PUA claimants. I mean, I know, as we've said throughout this, I think the best what's the best the best takeaway for me is, you know, who's exempt and who is is not at this point, which is, you know, those individuals who are who have attested that they are self employed or independent contractor or sole proprietor. So I know a lot of people had specific scenario questions that they all went back to. There's currently self employed. So they would be, you know, by self attestation exempt from work search at this point. Yeah. So one other thing and I want to get to a wrap up. Like you said, Kyle, I do want to mention one of the things that I wrote down for myself for a note and I saw it come through the chat a few times. And so I just wanted to acknowledge it. We do have a 10 week return to work rule for individuals in the UI program. So this would allow somebody who if they have a full time return to work date within 10 weeks of their initial claim, then those individuals would not be required to look for work. During that 10 week period, we are going to apply that in the PUA program as well. But keep in mind that it's really a rule design for UI. And so we're trying to figure out exactly how it would apply in PUA and know that right now the rule states that you have to have a return to work date that is 10 weeks from the initial claim or an ad claim. And so I imagine many individuals on both UI and PUA would not necessarily fall within that bucket because you may have been filing for more than 10 weeks at this point in time. So we're having conversations internally about whether it's appropriate to modify that rule and allow for 10 weeks from a given date. But please just understand that it's another one of those challenges where we're trying to work to make sure that our program requirements match the realities on the ground. But it is a little challenging for something like the PUA program that's never existed before. So I just wanted to comment on that. A few kind of just summation points here. We want to try to treat the programs UI and PUA as similarly as we can. So if you're filing in PUA, just like in regular UI, if you can attest that you meet one of the COVID qualifying scenarios that we identified earlier on the call. You've been exposed or asked to quarantine because you've been diagnosed with COVID-19. You have an underlying health condition that puts you at a serious medical risk if you contract COVID-19. Therefore, you've been recommended to remain out of the workforce for now. Your childcare or school care is closed and you can't look for work at this point in time. You're taking care of a family member who's been asked to quarantine because of an underlying health care condition. If you can attest to one of those criteria for either UI or PUA, you will not be required to look for work. Again, I know it's frustrating. I can't answer all the individual questions that come up. Just know that you're self-attesting that you meet that criteria. And as long as you can support that position, then if we're doing a review, we may ask, can you demonstrate that you have an underlying health care condition? And if you can't, then you would not be eligible and we'd have to review that at that moment. We're not asking you to upload any of this documentation. We're not asking you to give us your medical history. Please don't feel that you need to upload that information into the claimant portal. We're not seeking that information at all. It's a self-attestation program, so if you check that PUA qualifying scenario, the system is going to be programmed to not require you to look for work. Separate from that, if you've identified yourself as a self-employed individual or an independent contractor, you're not going to be required to do a work search and to conduct three job contacts each week. However, we are asking that you continue to engage in activity towards the goal of reopening your business or continuing to maintain your business open. And so as long as you are taking steps to get there, you know, you're continuing to work on your reopening plan if you haven't been able to reopen yet. You know, you're putting out applications or bids for contracts, you're open. You know, you may already be open and you're advertising or you're maintaining your business as being open. You know, then as long as you can certify to that that you are taking those steps, then you would not be required to do a work search. You know, we try to incentivize people to take part-time work. You know, so there was a question there at the end. I want to make sure it's clear, you know, it's not that if you accept a different career for less pay that you'd be exempt from work search if it's part-time. If it's part-time and you're not back to full-time employment, then it counts as a job contact. You would still need to seek out additional part-time work to make yourself eligible. So I just, I hope we're able to answer as many questions as we can. There's one thing I want to comment on there. It came in there towards the end. And so we do have additional opportunities for people to be exempt from work search. If you want to get onto a training program, that is one of them. I wanted to comment. It sounds like there's an individual here who asked to be enrolled and was denied. That may be the case. I don't have the facts of your specific scenario, but you know, we have to examine those on a case-by-case basis. But what I can tell you is we try to be as flexible as we can. So if you are looking to change career opportunities or you're looking to upskill yourself at this point in time, you can work with our workforce development division to seek out those opportunities. And we try to be as flexible as we can to allow people to do that and still remain on unemployment and not have to do a work search. So there's opportunity available there to continue to upskill or create new opportunities for yourself. We just want you to be taking those steps at this point in time. And again, we're here to support you both in paying for those training opportunities and also providing unemployment to support you during this period. So I hope that people have found this informational. I know it's very challenging to get to all the questions in a very short amount of time. As I mentioned earlier, though, we do debrief afterwards. So Kyle goes through as our communications director and, you know, examines the questions that were asked. And if we can't answer them in this setting, we try to incorporate them into our FAQs and our information that was provided. Please keep an eye out to your email, because that's at this point in time our primary method of communication. I know we sent out an email, for example, on Monday night with a lot of information about what the work search requirements are going to be. And so we'll be continuing to provide that information moving forward. And so if you get an email from the Department of Labor, you know, please don't just delete it because it likely has some information that we are trying to pull from these sessions. And so if we didn't get to your question here, just be on the lookout for further information. Excellent. Thank you, Cam. I appreciate you taking the time. I'm just going to pull up our work search page as you may reference to. As Cam said, we're going to be continuing to send email and communicating with you as claimants in the coming days and weeks as it relates to work search. Any new information, please be on the lookout. This is our UI claim at work search page. As I've said in the past, you can click the red bar for work search requirements at the top of the page from our homepage. And it's this red bar is on every one of our website pages. And you can find more information on the work search information and resources. All of these town halls are going to be added to these information sessions. So you'll be able to click any of these links and access past recordings. If not, you know, shortly after this session, certainly by the end of the day and tomorrow. We also will be adding more resources for claimants in the coming days as well in terms of creating an account, you know, job link and other things. And of course, more information about, you know, FAQs, you know, even specific to the self-employed individuals as well. So with that, Cam, thank you so much for taking the time for this week and last for all the town halls that we've done. This is our last scheduled town hall. If we find that, you know, more information does come up and new information is provided to us. We certainly will look at, you know, adding more sessions in the coming days and weeks, but also look out for workforce development resource specific town halls and sessions in the coming days and weeks as well. So with that, Cam, thank you so much for taking the time and I hope wish all of you a great rest of your day and a great rest of your week as well. So thanks everybody. Have a great.


Good morning Oliver. What's that? Air conditioning or is an energy company raising your temperature? Today we have it. We'll see about this afternoon and tomorrow. Right now we do. All right, cross the fingers. Yeah, if the AC was out but she had fans it might be all right. If you can't have electricity it's no good. Howdy all. Good morning. Are we talking about the weather? Yeah, weather and I guess it's Texas electrical stuff. We had tornadoes here in Chicago last night at the suburbs so yeah some people are out of electricity too. Wow. The suburbs in Chicago are pretty well with high density of people. Yeah, it's still in the Midwest so we're surrounded by planes but the the lake has a mediating effect so the city doesn't get it too bad but the weather is crazy all over. Here in Colorado we have had 99 weather continuously and today's right now at 60 degrees. Well that's why the best advice is never to leave your house and just continue working all the time. That is not the best advice. Maybe not. Be prepared for anything. So in Colorado we carry multiple layers of clothing even in the summer because you could have snowfall on July 4th. Yeah, we have a saying in Chicago about if you don't like the weather just wait. It's going to change a lot. Howdy folks. We'll get started in about two minutes at five after. Add any agenda items to the meeting notes and your name please. All right. The meeting notes have been posted in the Zoom chat. They're also in Slack and the calendar if you have it. It's listed on the CNCF public calendars of events and this call is recorded. If you didn't get the Zoom message I think everybody gets them now when you join these so it is recorded. We'll be posted to the CNCF YouTube channel. What do we have here? I guess one thing to note the July 5th meeting. So not next Monday but the Monday after is going to be canceled. It's a public holiday in the U.S. Upcoming events, KubeCon NA October, ONES and the CFP submissions closed yesterday, the 20th. If there's some interesting ones, I guess if you've had acceptance, I don't know if it's if those have come through for KubeCon then let people know we could post them on here ahead of time so that folks can be aware of this. And if there's some interesting stuff for ONES then keep those in mind for when they get, if you get accepted, let everybody know in the group. So right now it looks like all we have is some items from the pull request. I'm going to refresh that page. I don't see anything new there. No new discussion items. Does anyone have anything they want to add agenda today? Simon, are you here? Yes, I am. Cool. I think you had some changes on the stateful CNFPR that came through. Yeah and I made those over the weekend so I don't think there's any open issues left. I've made a change. Is it pancutch? Put a comment. Yeah which I updated which was the introduction of the basically the statement that he made about the glossary state being I just took the text as written and then changed the existing one to be types of states because that's basically what it was. Right. So I don't think there's any reason why. Sorry Simon but should the state still be defined? Well the whole point about the use case is talking about state and managing state. So if we don't introduce what state is then it makes it confusing if you don't agree. So the question is if you only make it types of state and not define state so we should define state right? Yeah and I have. Sorry I should have brought it up a little different. So I actually just expanded this, Pankai. This has been resolved. So we'll go and take a look at the changes. Would that be in the? Yeah it's at the top. Top of the glossary. You can see it. Okay. There's a statement that there's a state and that's the date that's the text that you wrote and I then changed the existing one to be types of state which and I added in a terminal state as a type of state. What type of states but yeah those are the ones I took from. Does that address what you were talking about Pankai? Yep yep thank you. Okay I don't think there's any other comments left over. So I guess we either need more people to review it or we accept it as it is and then iterate like we've done a lot of things. I don't know if we got reset. I feel like you had some plus ones in the past. I looked at your newest ones. I'm going to give it an approve for myself. Thanks Peter. Yeah there was yeah I did a couple of minor adjustments previous to the last meeting just to verify something. So yeah that's all good. Okay we just need a couple more I think. Can you go over is that the only change that you made over the weekend? Yeah that was the only change. All of the changes were prior to the previous meeting. Okay let me see. Let's see it was off May 17th seven days ago and then all right. Okay so this is we're trying to get more use cases in here with the purpose of having context for taking these are looking at them and using them as reference for best practices. So there's stuff that we've started talking about for best practices on state like probably from databases and stuff. The point is to get these in so that we can reference and discuss them we can it doesn't have to be perfect. So is there can we get some I guess some plus ones and get this merged? Are you right now during call or if you have any problems some please raise it right now. I approved it but I suggested a minor change. Let's see. So it's a minor change and it's for consistency also. What is it? Examples of ephemeral state objects are it's not a ephemeral state but ephemeral state objects are temporary files etc. Are you good with that? I'll just click commit if you're good with that. I'll click commit. And I approved it by the way. Thanks Sarani. Any others? I just had a refresh. Nikolai, Tal, Victor, Watson. Get a plus one for me. Or a no. One plus one for me. Yeah I would give it a plus one too. Thanks guys. Looks good thank you. It seems like there's only one checker which is failing. It might be a URL checker and I think it checked the whole repo I think. Let me have it up. Yeah but uh or maybe the status is not considered as a healthier status like because it's returning like 400, 29, 80p code so probably I don't know we have to modify the checker to also consider that because the the URL is fine I double check it and it is there. Did you you're saying this? This wrestling RFCs a dead link? If you click on that it is it is working it's opening the the repo but maybe the status code that is is getting that 429. Yeah consider like I don't know if we have to modify or something to expand the number. These are interesting. Status 429. What is 429? Hmm good question. Too many requests. Throttling. They're very related. That's interesting. So that's all those are all github. That's complaining. These are github links and so there's probably like this link to the definitions. CNCF definition is probably linked from a lot of places. We should probably use relative links because then they become uh tied to the uh commit branch as well rather than linking. I think we tried that. These are for external. These are not. Oh okay I see. Yeah the the only problems that we're having are external links. Thanks imagine Taylor. No problem. All right let's move on to the next one. Um do we have anybody on the call to talk about this? I think a she's came on like for a couple of calls but I've been out for a bit and I don't see them on the call. So this is actually two different use cases and I think we have an open discussion for one of them so that the synchronization timing and multi communication interface which I don't think we have a discussion for and there is hasn't been a towel you put something from ACM on here but we want to either get stuff merged or close them out. Let's see what is the latest way back. Victor this looks like a at least this part of it is a just removing spaces so you're formatting. Yeah yeah but I'm gonna commit that one just formatting. There's a lot about a single line. Okay so Ian was essentially saying we need to have some definitions and limits around all this because it's vague to just say the timing needs to be synchronized but to what level um nothing is actually real time. There's some type of difference between reality and what you're okay with but this is a suggestion I guess um so that's one thing to keep in mind just pointing this out and I'm not looking at the rest of the context for the use case but in a use case we're not trying to communicate a best practice but this is kind of suggesting what people should do. It should maintain. It should do this certain thing and our best practices are where we're trying to suggest what people should do and the use cases are trying to define what needs are and for the applications and the end user services so that may need to be adjusted. I don't know if anyone wants to take this over because I haven't heard from Ashish in a while. Has anyone else heard from Ashish? No. Okay so if if we don't have someone like take over and say this this is a good use set of it's really a set of use cases so if someone doesn't want to take this over and try to move it forward then at some point we'll need to close it out because it's not it's just going to hang around. So if you're interested in these take a look and we can reach out to Ashish but if they don't respond then we'll need to go through and and look if we want to take this over. I think on the timing was the one that had the most interest and that's why we ended up with a discussion and if I if we go back and look at the net service some comments there. All right I can check with them and see if they're willing to go through some of the comments on that. Thanks Bill. I don't know how I skipped over the onboarding but we don't have Vook on the call so I guess we can skip this one today. Okay so this glossary this one's been open for a while too. Tal have you gone through and looked at some of the stuff for being able to commit, merge, and the changes suggest the changes and request? Well I look mostly at my contributions. We're talking about mine specifically. Well yeah this this PR there's a bunch of I guess part of the thing is because it's such a large set of changes then they've had a lot of requests for changes to that or I won't say changes. You mainly had additions but then because of there's a whole lot of different ones you're covering a lot and there's been a lot of comments across that. If you can go through and look and we can get to some type of agreement then we can get those merged. So I really thought we it's the comments are a discussion right? I don't feel like we reached a final decision on anything really. I think it's worth discussing here. This is why we're doing this. Yeah I don't know if we reached a complete alignment. There were a few good ideas but I don't think we as a group as a whole agree on some of the core terms. The big one is still what we mean by CNF. There's still excuse me there's still some of us I think who would like CNF to mean containerized network function and look for a different term for a cloud native network function. I suggested CN-NF CNNF with the dash being an emphasis that this is well we're talking about an operational perspective on a network function rather than a technological perspective which is things like VNF and CNF which refer to how the network function is deployed. With the point being that a containerized network function is not necessarily a cloud native function and a cloud native function could be a virtualized network function. I don't know if that's the suggestion I'm throwing out and I know it's a big one and it really changes even the name of this group work group and what it means. Yeah so essentially this this is probably a topic that I personally want to end sooner rather than later because it feels like it's taking away back to what you've said again in the past how the focus on adding more use cases in best practice versus going around and around on this so the CNF working group is this group and the CNF CNCF telecom activities are only about cloud native they're not about other things so if we did decide and part of this is not this group so part of like the decision on what CNF is is already outside of this working group and would be like a CNCF and I don't know how much Billy you have view into that might need to pull like Chris and Azniak and some other people but the group the working group is cloud native network functions we're focused on that right I understand what you're saying Cal with regards to the confusion on containerized and other stuff I don't think within CNCF in the Kubernetes community there is confusion that's it is about cloud native so it would be presenting itself outside but from the group standpoint whatever the acronym is we're talking about cloud native networking applications that's correct I don't think there's any confusion about that I think and if we would make a suggestion to the CNCF we are trying to align with the industry right and provide best practices for the industry and the glossary is an important contribution to right these are terms that we can all agree with the fact is right now that the industry as a whole is not using CNF in the way that we are if we mean CNF to mean cloud native network function and we've been using it that way so far I think it creates confusion in the industry at large so I mean we can do whatever we want that's true but I think I want us to be helpful and not add to the confusion so like it or not CNF in many parts of the industry and many documents and many presentations that are given refers to cloud native network sorry refers to containerized network function sometimes specifically on Kubernetes but not always and yeah it's an unfortunate aspect to this confusion so I'm trying to make a suggestion for the for the unfortunate one second Fredrick tell one thing that's been suggested and I'm going to bring it up now is break this PR update into smaller chunks so that we can get some of them that are agreed to merged so just on your glossary update the PR in general and then around cloud native I think that needs to be put for probably not in a PR but a discussion so create a discussion I think there might actually yeah there is one that Jeffrey put in here so you could put it in here or put it in a discussion and what I would recommend is creating like a spreadsheet or a link show a big list of here's all of the there's when we do Google searches or whatever you have 80% of the people say containerized and here's 20% that are using that so do this is like a discussion for itself and we can deal with that separately but it shouldn't block all the other glossary items where we're talking about functional stuff of for a use case the main point on this is how do we get to best practices for running cloud native network applications so I think your jump I think there's a confusion here the issues were discussion right I don't know if I would treat them as comments necessarily Ian raised a few points and we discuss things my original PR is not related to that issue I mean I am treating cloud native I am treating cnf as cloud native network function so the discussion might be separate but I think the PR as itself yeah I'm not sure if any of the comments would affect it so I I think the PR could be merged as is and that discussion I agree is separate and we're having it in separate places and there could be a future PR to fix to fix that but right now it absolutely adheres to our original definitions that is cnf means cloud net cloud native network function I did not change that okay let's well Frederick I don't know if if you had a comment or we just move forward to try to close this out without talking more about cnf but go ahead Frederick it was just a little bit of context just from the history of cnf so the actual term was actually created through collaboration with the cncf itself so there's an individual who doesn't want to be named who came up with the term cnf it was said Dr. Dan and and Arpid who then ran with it and popularized the the term cnf it's very unfortunate that the term containerized network function is the way that most people interpret it the acronym despite the the efforts that went on to to define what what a cnf is so it's it's definitely very very acute issue that would be good to get some form of resolution on but I don't see I don't see an easy path towards towards saying that I do agree though that the community of large within the cncf does does agree that it's cloud native network function and we've done a good job in that environment at the community of large is definitely taking their own interpretation so I think they're going to do this even if even if the term containerized network function did not exist a lot of people think that cloud native is explicitly equal to containerization so I think even if we change the terms around it we'll still run into this issue of people saying well we're running a a cloud native thing despite the fact it's just a containerized workload one last thing as well of aligning the cncf to the industry is definitely an important thing but simultaneously the opposite is true as well aligning the industry to cloud native I would argue is is equally as important in the sense that we are trying to have an effect on the industry so we should not forget the goal of it is not to say we're aligning but also to have a positive influence on on the rest of the community but yeah anyways I just want to toss that out not to try to cause any significant discussion but just to put some some thoughts into people's minds on on how we got here yeah that that's absolutely I agree with all that I but and I agree with Taylor that it's a separate discussion so I wonder if if we can go over this PR and if we can do it now and if there's no objections yeah let's just see where we can get with it Tal and and then there's so there's there are suggestions to update in here that I guess any this is for everybody if you if you put a PR in here everyone can help of course but it is coming from your branch or you know probably your own repo so please go through and look at things and try to either merge or respond and so one of them would be not not just the discussion items Tal which may need to be actually you could go this is a good discussion why don't we pull this out of a PR so it's not lost and I've done that myself but some of these would be like this it looks like it may be a style thing Bill that you're noting and this would be something Tal that we could go through and go okay I see that you're just making a suggestion that I can accept I'm not sure if you have to pull it back into your branch or whatever but these would be items that you could resolve and that would help clear out the queue so that we can get it merged faster okay well well this is an example that I did not resolve because I do not agree with the stylistic suggestion oh all right so I guess some background on this one that well that's fine so respond to it Tal at least so that we know that you've looked at it and this would be everybody not I'm just saying Tal but please respond to the comments so that everyone knows if if this is an issue that we're going to resolve or move forward on or just ignore I'd say no we don't want this and we can focus on other items so this particular one I think Bill you're you put this in because it's based on the CNCF style guide for what how to say cloud native I'm supposing but this is your yeah that's correct I just dropped a link to it in the chat if anybody's um oh thanks yeah I'll bring that up there we go all right that's how it is it seems like wrong English to me but I'll accept it yeah this is like the debate this is what was chosen at like the beginning I mean this is quite an old document so um that's just I guess how CNCF chose to do it before I showed up so all right no problem if yeah if that's how it is then that's how it is they definitely had some British English speakers on it so I'm sure it got debated across the board for people but okay so is this something you can commit I don't know or I can just do a plus one for me tell now um I'll commit it actually uh Bill there are other places that I use cloud native with a hyphen so I'll change those as well you'll commit them sure Taylor if you if you're ready to commit it and fix it right now sure thanks the the heuristic that I that I tend to use which may not align with the CNCF is if it's a noun I do not put the hyphen if it's a adjective I do uh which which is the common English approach but uh they they are using cloud native as a as a brand so it's possible that they they don't include the hyphen that's supposed to be for for that reason but yeah the other conversation is way above my head in terms of how how they want to represent their brand yeah well I'll just be consistent because Bill you noticed you made a change that um you forgot one hyphen to remove that's basically it thanks by the way other people have pointed this out but network functions are not called applications uh well I yes but but um we are saying that a network function is a cloud native application right cloud native design principles I think refer to applications so yes in our world we don't call them applications but um if you want to talk about design principles then it is an application in my opinion where does it is that something is this this area about the application no no it was inside your cloud native if you go back to the cloud native within the parenthesis it's a cloud native application so oh um and the other other places other people have pointed it out so Heather the one right below it I think had an example of it yeah could we change application into cloud native software um sure I guess um software yeah I mean if that makes you more comfortable I it makes me a bit less comfortable the software is a very very I know it's very generic but I what so what is the um reasoning for not using application it could be workload right workload is a good word yeah I think it comes down to a specific question though it is a pnf physical network function ever going to be a cnf and if the answer is no there's a high likeliness that every cnf is an application yeah I I would prefer to go with the common and then if we have a real world example where it it's off and we need to change it we're at an exception then we do that versus theoretical so I'm I've been using applications because we're talking about um well primarily we've been talking about on kubernetes platforms and it aligns with that but even on non kubernetes if we're just saying networking software that's running and from an in-user perspective so that could be like a service provider running this they're thinking of the the application running yeah and and I think workload in I know in the kubernetes documentation they specifically scope it down uh in general a workload can be either physical or or virtual but an application itself is is clearly or I guess in my in my mind is clearly software although others may have a different definition for it but yeah I think it really comes down to we want to how do we want to scope it do we want to talk about uh do we want to talk about hardware as part of the cnf or do we want to say the application itself as a cnf um while at the same time even if we take the software approach we still acknowledge that there may be hardware integrations that we may want to do so I think it's primarily about how do we want to how do we want to scope it ourselves to how do we approach this I personally am uncomfortable with with applications looking at to to software but uh this but it depends on where we as a community want to scope it so applications are typically typically have end users that utilize the network functions on the other hand um are components that go into and they may be form part of or or provide traffic through which applications interface so I think that is where the distinction really comes about I hear that um a lot and then whenever it comes back to stuff like the a vcp use case um you have a lot of components in there that people first refer to as network functions but they could very well be oh these are applications so um what is the vdhcp well it's that's uh most of the world would say a dhcp server is an application you happen to be using it as a you may say it's like underlying um or making this larger network that everything else then runs on so it's what are your your end users and because we run this dhcp application as part of our infrastructure networking but then stuff like oh your um your netflix caching server and stuff but even say this vb and g so we're broadband network gateway what's special about this it's it's pushing packets between this side and this side but you have this you have the same functionality from um layer four layer seven type of packet routing things but we're calling this something different because it's it may be underlying you may have an application on top that does layer seven routing that goes on top so to speak to the b and g yeah so you know layer four to layer seven network stuff is usually network services so you know this would may mainly be layer two layer three would be network functions anyway we don't have to debate this if everybody is okay with the application let's just leave it that's fine it was only a suggestion in there i think it's it's a good suggestion um and and i think part of it comes down to again how how we want to scope it down and how we want to interpret it uh this is probably something that should absolutely go into the glossary though to specifically say that if we use the term application we should make sure that we state that it's that it's not just end user but we're talking about it as software just so that we can be clear about it because there there is some there are some differences between how a significant portion of the industry uses the term application versus when you're when you're in enterprise versus it's it's very common for for people to mix the both of us now i have an application that which i mean i have a d in the run or they have a server running or some software running but then when you're in the telecom space the definition may be much more precise i have an application which means i have something explicitly which is interacting with or doing something on behalf of the user that the user is uh is affected by in a way that they see so there could be some confusion there that we do need to be careful with by the way for network function i suggested we use a very standard c terminology right um let's try to move the pr forward so tell um it looks like this one is not changing anything i don't know if if the suggestion um was to not even have this line that says tbd just remove it or or it's okay to be tbd it could be that could be a separate pr you know i didn't remove things that were already there um i tend to agree i think there's a new pr um from a look that uh that adds a whole bunch of other things including uh filling that out so we can maybe deal with that separately um or i'm not seeing that but okay maybe he didn't do it as uh as a pr maybe it got merged did it already get merged that's a good question um i'm not seeing it so i'm not seeing it or a discussion anyways okay so can i just resolve this is there anything to do right now we're leaving it alone we're not adding a definition for kube native right that wasn't part of what i was trying to do um okay so resolve it i'm gonna resolve it okay by the way i just pushed a fixes for the cloud native hyphen so there are no more hyphens great thank you okay i'm working my way up so kubernetes network function a cladified network function deployed on kubernetes note that the knf is not necessarily a container as network function there are ways to employ virtualization and containers and kubernetes date to run full virtual machines all right that's a lot of extra you're not wrong is it useful to us um i think it's useful it's uh all right as i pointed out the last time we discussed this i said that my my opinion here is that it's good to have more terms because we do fall in the weeds of you know the classifying exactly specific aspects of this so this term could help us sometimes when we you know we we can talk about c containerized network functions generally but then kubernetes network function specifically so we can clarify what we mean in this case and and i have seen this term thrown or for example it relates a little bit to the kube native term that we left tbd um it could just help us in discussions i think so um but we're being specific on that the network and application that someone is talking about so if you're giving an example and a best practice or use case that it's explicitly running on kubernetes without saying it's in a container but you're saying this network application is running on kubernetes correct and without without literally saying it that way so then the only question i i think that sounds fine to me if we want a term versus if you wanted to say any use case this is a cnf running on kubernetes that would be the this is short hand for that so um then i agree with out the only thing that out of this that i don't care for is cladified that seems to be like a i don't know if we have a definition for that but i just called that a buzzword cladified sure yeah i wonder if it could be you know i think i meant to say actually a cloud native network function and i wrote cladified by mistake um all right how does cloud native look to you here to everybody how about like is that good like that cloud native network function could it run on another container platform other than kubernetes what oh this is a kubernetes sorry sorry this is a kubernetes network function i'm sorry sorry actually we can just write cnf because cnf means a cloud native network function like this yeah oh did you do it um i did not but i pushed something else so you know what let me just do it on my end all right all right pushed i should have done the single line comment let's see what that looks like i wonder if you need to refresh the page maybe to see my um it'll probably show as soon as i this shows outdated right but i wonder if you just press the wrong view it might show it correctly oh i've i've already um refreshed but i'm in the wrong view if i do the file view so it's basically saying the comment and the other view is off right yeah see there we go and then it's already shown resolved okay okay um okay and then this one is exploit this is kind of a similar one where we're trying to at least um call out that we recognize that if something is only in a container that we could say that because like i said in this one you could have a cloud native vm running on kubernetes and you could have a container as network function that doesn't follow um any cloud native standards i guess right so you know i did define a cloudified network function here so i don't know i do see that now yeah yeah this one's interesting that okay kubernetes network function well because here's the thing you know a knf maybe i'm still sticking to my original definition because a knf you know you can have something running on kubernetes but if you haven't used cloud native design principles we shouldn't call it a cnf we shouldn't call it a cnf cloud issue sorry the issue with cloudified network function the last sentence there um to be classified now cloudified network function is must not it's not necessarily adhering to cloud native principles yeah it's the sentence before that that captures what tal is saying so you it's not necessarily a cnf if it doesn't follow those principles but the last sentence contradicts that again it's saying to be classified as a cnf it's just the the way the phrasing is makes it a little bit then we should change us to cnf okay if it's if it's not clear or change the period to a semicolon or something you know because i'll fix it to be classified as a cnf sure it must be here as much better all right and to i think frijek made this point earlier maybe it was in a comment but does this help us um why are we putting a term in like the term should help with something that we're discussing versus theoretical discussion so is this something that we're already referring to classified i think i think this may relate that the term itself is new to me but uh but i think the intention may have come from conversations that uh that uh ian was also involved with uh some of the conversations we had was what what does it really mean for something to be uh to be cloud native and for to be like how are we using the term and how are we describing things and one of the areas that we found that there was some contention around was if i if i was in a if i was in a cloud and i created an api within within a cloud that allows you to let's say create a firewall on the map or create a vpn on the map is that being considered to be cloud native because it only runs in the cloud and so i think the term very likely came out as a result of of those discussions though i'm not sure where the actual point itself was was termed but that that's my guess is that is is it has to do with how do we mean cloud native which is very specific versus this is something that can run in the cloud or even is provided as infrastructure that that's part of a cloud uh or designed to to run in a cloud which uh may not be a cloud cloud native in the way that we describe it as being something even horizontally scale etc etc so just that's exactly it yeah i the problem is that in some conversations with people who are not on board with don't know everything that the cncf is about and think that it's you know it just means running things on kubernetes we need to distinguish these things and say okay you brought your cnf you brought your network functions to kubernetes but that's not enough if you want to be classified as a cnf that means following our best practices and the design principles for cloud native so all of these terms are to help us make these distinctions right okay so if we are if you are if you are creating a term cloudified network function which covers both vnf cnf etc and i think the vnf definition needs to be changed um well we can scroll to the vnf definition definition too yeah we had some discussion about that as well the reason is the vnf definition right now overlaps mostly with what the queue your cloudified network function is so well you can make vnf purely a virtual machine based network function in this well the the way i defined it um it talks about the technology and it actually doesn't mention the word cloud at all you can have virtual machines that are not it mentions it mentions containers also um well i'm mentioning that virtualization technologies so virtualization does not have to be specifically with a virtual machine i agree i agree but since we're defining so many terms maybe vnf could be restricted for network functions deployed on vms only that's a suggestion given that now you have a cloudified network function which can cover basically both scenarios and i think we'll run into the same issue as cnf though in that the vnf is this is when they talk about a container they actually use the the term well virtualize to cover any any form of isolation system that's there which includes a container and um i i i've had i've had significant discussions with people through set through cntq back when it was still before it was part of etiquette and similar about this exact phrasing this exact term and so i think this is one that we need to be really really careful with is you know in terms of redefining vnf because like redefining cnf like we came up with the term but the term vnf originates from etsy and has a very specific meaning within etsy that that will end up fighting uh so we want to be careful that we don't conflict with that definition um we we could say if we want to restrict our usage i think it would be okay to say that when we describe vnf's we're explicitly talking about uh virtual vm based systems um but also make it clear that we're that we're not aiming to to uh derail the etsy term i i think we i think we should be very careful on on how we approach that right i i try to be careful we're at the top of the hour um and tal if you can go back through and try to respond to as many of these as possible um and then i think the one that i can see that may not be in here is what is the definition of cloudify and that that would expand on this so cloudified network function but that's the only one i'm saying but if you can just go through and then we'll i think i did i think i think maybe next week we could continue this i think we're not done quite with the discussion there there's some of them that i'm saying when i just scrolled through that look like they could be resolved like i don't see a debate on them so if you can go through and either say those are good and then click resolve and that way we only have a subset next week all right thanks everyone thanks so much see you next week cheers


Hello, my name is Shakira Zee. I'm a global shepherd from Afghanistan. I live in Kabul. I'm from Kandahar and I thank special thanks ITU and Costa Rica the government of Costa Rica to help me exactly they did best job because they bring me here to this Fantastic and super fantastic and needed summit beyond 2015 So I'm happy I met a lot of people here and what most important for me was to be with the people who think innovation there and the people who are innovative and Think about beyond 2015. I Work in my country. I work with my people We work without people to promote ICT usage of ICT and ICT step in Afghanistan This summit helped me to learn more and implement there. So global perspective local agenda It means that we will learn here and implement in our countries. So I'm much happier To be here. I lie. I love Costa Rica. The people is nice. The people are nice I love the people a lot. They are play friendly they smile and I want to be in Costa Rica again And again long life ITU a long life ICT and