Hello Lance Hey Bruce, how are you good? How are you good good? What time zone are you in Lance? I'm on the East Coast of the US so Eastern time cool How about you? Mountain time, okay a little early for you. Yeah. Yeah a little bit I overslept last week and only caught the last half of the meeting Okay. Yeah, good to have you Thank you. I've invited three students to join the meeting but their eyes rolled when they heard the time What a what are you are you a teacher? No, I work with with Phil Wendley who is supervising a capstone project. Oh, okay, and I'm helping out with some technical expertise great And part of that is is attending this meeting and Good good what the students are where? And at Brigham Young University and okay. Yeah, great Very good. It's amazing how many SSI people are from the Utah area Yeah Evernim I think started it started it off to a great extent. Okay. I'm not sure if there were precursors to that that was the first Group that shared it with me Gotcha, that makes sense and then Phil Wendley of course organized the sovereign foundation Right, great. And some of the students he hired Many of them are working in the industry there are some working at in DCO a Couple of them founded transit Right, okay. Yeah, those those connections all make sense then hello. Good morning. Hey, how can how are you? Very good. How are you? Yeah, just making myself a coffee, but yeah, we can talk with the wireless headset Okay, good Just setting up our Page here, I guess I can share my screen Everybody Hello, hello Hey, Rota We getting started in about one minute just trying to clean up all my All my screens here one second Now that I'm sharing I have lost my other view Come on. Okay Let's just Publish this for now so I can okay. Welcome to our areas did convie to working group for December 12 2022 good to have everybody We'll go through some updates here. I just created the page. So yeah, we'll just Just edit it as we go feel free to well, I should remind everybody about the anti-trust policy for hyper ledger and the code of conduct For hyper ledger, please if you'd like to add yourself to the attendees list For today's meeting I think yeah I left some from last week that are here and Yep, that's the four of us good Okay, so I Let's see on my end. Just do an update real quick. We'll go around And Actually, maybe Bruce would you like to introduce yourself? I think maybe everybody's knows you but yeah, maybe Maybe go for it. Thank you. Thank you Lance. I'm I don't know if I've met Roto and Hakkan I Work at Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah and I'm my interest in this Working group is that I'm assisting Phil Windley who has three students implementing did convie to Using his Pico system So quick quick quick question on that Is it being implemented on some areas framework or or another? Yeah, or another software It's it's another software Phil Windy invented Something he calls Pico's Because yes, which are supported by a Pico engine implemented in Node.js and The students are using the Rust library of Sikpa To Bring that up. Yeah in the Pico world IoT devices, right? Yeah Pico's are came out of the IoT world, but they're They're they have broader usage than that. They can be used to implement websites and And And each each Pico can be an agent We already have areas agents running did com v1 Up up to and including making connections and exchanging basic messages great Yeah, I always miss the The sessions on the iiw regarding the Pico's Yeah, there's there's way too much going on at iiw All right, great. Yeah, glad to have you bruce and it was cool to meet you at iiw and uh, yeah Very good. Okay. Um Let's see updates on my end. I don't think I did much Um for Specifically for this group over the last week. Uh, I did read through the document that That hack on had shared Let's see if we have it here The last there's a hack and be from some That may be interesting to to To review Today Yes Good point. Uh, right. So that is uh, it was one of the nice things from this past week. Uh, the the um The aip 3.0 movement is uh alive and well Let me I'm just going to search for the um The links that I had for that Um, but yeah, it it seems like um Aip 3.0 is is going to be a real thing. Uh, it's going to be did com v2 focused Uh, and yeah, I would I would say that that's um, maybe the most important thing that happened over the last week But yeah, you guys go ahead and fill in some details and I'll find some links I I put it. Oh, you put it the link on there. Yeah Thanks Okay Oh, this is great. This is from sandcurrent. Okay Yeah, yeah on the last meeting 80s meeting last week He raised that topic so he on the meeting he opened up this document and he filled it on the fly So but but it's something that we need to be completed. It just was the the file that he He filled in on the during the meeting Yeah, this was really cool. Um, it's so great to have sam Helping with the effort. Uh, and yeah, he basically uh, what what we kind of discussed was that I was concerned that okay a ip 1.0 Was was you know had had its its scope and then maybe a ip 2.0 That that that scope expanded and I was worried Are we at a point where a a ip 3.0 might be um, just too large to be kind of a Aries wide interrupt profile. Uh, maybe, you know, I suggested, uh, maybe we should call it like a ip did come v2 Uh, even though personally I would love to see a ip 3.0 b, you know, the did come v2 Interrupt profile and and basically sam and and others Based basically noted. Well, maybe the scope of the a ip actually shrinks by um making it did come v2 specific and and um It seems that the Momentum in in the other agents, uh, you know, the work that hakan and his group's doing for akapai And uh, the pull request that's going through for afj right now Going through review and and that the sick bug guys Are um working on actively. Um That it seems to be enough momentum across aries that yeah a ip 3.0 With a did come v2 focus would would would be quite beneficial to the community. So um, that was a really great talk and basically sam started to produce this uh table In order to basically show how did come v2 spec begins to replace a bunch of the, uh rfc's from Um previous interrupt profiles and thus, you know, maybe the list is not as Exile, uh, not as large as as I would feared. So any thoughts? He actually removed start copy paste the a ip 2 and start removing roads And that's how we got and the other main point here is that Even in also in a ip 2. There are some a RFP that are optional so like the mediator and and that are on the on the bottom So we can do the same like put extra thing as optional so you you can comply with ip 3 but not with with some Only in in some part, maybe the main part But if you are a mediator you can comply also with the mediator part Yeah, and I love that. What do you guys think about having kind of this this optional list? Uh that people can can borrow from depending on You know their requirements Sorry, I was commenting right now. What do you mean with the optional list? Yeah, we're basic. I think the concept is uh instead of Making it seem that oh, you know, if you want to be a ip 3.0 compliant Uh, you know, here is the the super list, right of everything you could implement right one of my One of the lessons learned it seems to me from the jff Exercise was that when people start start jumping into did come v2 It can be pretty overwhelming to know What is it that I absolutely have to implement and what can we kind of work towards over time granted, you know It's a spec and you know, we all want to fully comply with the spec But you know, there's some kind of minimal things that you could put and and so Sam was pointing out that even maybe an aip 2.0. They had A concept of some optional pieces And so maybe you don't want to implement mediation Right off the bat because maybe you're not doing mobile You know development and and you don't need a mediator But you know eventually you would would want to adopt that So I think the concept was let's try to make a list that's kind of You know the core things that that probably everybody's going to need and then Have some optional things that people can pick and choose from for instance, if they want indie bass credentials Yeah, yeah, those were already on aip 2. So but I but I didn't know that was like optional So and they put like this name may be eight indy cred LD credit and that is optional So that was something new for me too. So it's good Yeah, I like it other thoughts Yeah I'm sorry, it's it's very important to to our project because it's a very short-term project And we're not even going to get all of the base requirements done Yeah Yeah, that's and that that yeah again the jff thing Uh, you know it was this exercise and you know, they get funding and you know, so okay a bunch of people jumped in And yeah, same thing. It's supposed to be the short-term turnaround of okay, let's show these this credential exchange What's it called open badge or something like that? a credential exchange And yeah, they they have a limited amount of time a little limited amount of resources and so They're not going to be able to implement everything for did come v2 and they kind of went through wacky and wacky did come for for credential exchange and they basically Even that they they chose a subset to to implement between themselves so that they could you know show Trading these credentials or or transferring these credentials to one another so I think that concept should be very important and I'd love to kind of capture Mmm kind of the core path of of a did come v2 implementation versus Kind of all the other things that a person might support or did come v2 implementation might support Yes, that sounds very very interesting Can you provide the link to the jff work of some kind? Yeah, so in this Um This this spreadsheet that I'm trying to build I have a references tab And so I put the jff notes here. There's a link to that I'll uh, I'm not perfect. Thank you very much. I I have that Oh, okay. Good. Yeah, great. Thanks and uh, yeah I guess my my disclaimer again for this spreadsheet is I'm trying to build it to help the community but We can document things however we want I would just like there to be a place that's useful for us to Kind of collect this information as we go So we have, you know a list of implementations a list of did methods That that are essentially supported by those implementations and you know, probably you want to support did peer right but These kinds of things to help interrupt between all these new Users essentially of did come v2 Um, so yeah, I'm always open go ahead. Yep. No, just want to mention that one thing that sounds did in that list is Removing these some protocols and and they start removing the protocols that are already inside the Didn't come v2 specification like the out of bounds I think the the trust pink and the routine protocol Uh The discover feature so though those four were removed from the list But are on the because they are on the spec that is the first row so I think in the notes we need to put that the This spec also includes include those those protocol Yeah, and they are the other one really important for how can and that is something that we need to really Talk about is he removed them. I think they they Did a change protocol because some say, okay, this is not actually Really needed in terms of a AI P Because it's more internal on each framework. I think so but uh, anyway, we we And at the other thing that uh, some mention is oh, we agreed to maybe we should write an Like an RFP It's not going to be like a protocol But more kind of uh, like a reference or over discussion on how we should implement those kind of stuff like You you always Was talking about the connection right how you establish a connection And even though did it come be to Kind of start the connection with just a simple message We by receiving a simple message on the framework you need to handle that right? And this is something that we need to agree on how Should be done and so do we see that um as part of the RFC For did come v1 and did come v2 Transition from did come v1 to did come v2 or do you see that as? Maybe not not for the transition like a general way of Yeah, how should a connection How to be established right Just receive a message and that's a connection or not Do you need something extra like a reply into that message and And that's the end of the establishing a connection. That's the thing. I think It's need to to be resolved because they they did a change we saw that right and that way it's not so clear I wish Hey guys, sorry, I generate a little bit Yeah, I was stuck on my code, uh, and I forgot about the meaning but I guess like I guess rhodo you said that we should try to figure out a way to Generalize connection I I don't think we should try to do it at the group level Uh, in my opinion like that kind of depends on like a message per message level Uh From that perspective, and I think that like each uh like wallet implementer should try to figure out a way of like how to Handle messages Like have like a message a handler class Since like did come v2 to me since more like it's a One-way protocol like it's it doesn't like really support like Like sessions. I mean it does have the concept of threads. So like you can kind of like use A thread ID as like a connection ID concept Uh, but uh, yeah, like Uh, do you guys think this is like a good like I mean, I agree that everybody's gonna have to use the concept of connections I'm not sure we should standardize it Outside of the calm I guess Yeah, what do you think? Don't know jump on it No, yeah, I I I agree don't me standardize, but maybe a reference because it's an an 80s issue and Somehow I agree on on because if you receive a message Uh, you're okay. You you can now establish a connection, but the other party's still not because The other you know yet the other party Really, right, right, right. Yeah, the party. You know that you received the message, right? Correct, like yeah, like the other party doesn't even know that like whether you read the message or not So, yeah, I think the like I think did come itself is designed in such a way that it's purposely done that way Uh, do not have like a pairwise like Like a pairwise connection, but uh, yeah, I mean like So I guess I'm trying to figure out what are we trying to do with a ip3 and to me It sounds like we're trying to figure out like a basic set of protocols that allows to have some minimum communication between two did come agents And I guess since it doesn't have to do much with areas like in my mind, it makes sense to call like a basic did come profile But yeah I think I think I guess from that perspective, it does make sense to standardize connections If you look at it that way, so okay. Yeah But I know that hankan was working really hard on that on the On the akapai, so Yeah, yeah, I guess like I'm saying like the way akapai will handle connections will be slightly different than afj to handle connection Or do they handle connection the same way right now? Well, that doesn't matter how they can't believe but how how they flow will work maybe to to To acknowledge a connection somehow If you send a message you you because maybe you send a message to an out of one From an out of one and then you need to receive a replay back to make sure that the okay both both parties now are talking We have a yeah an agreed connection between you you may or may not need that but Anyway, I think that's Yeah, like established like a handshake like okay. Hey, I'm I have this Yeah, I think like we need to figure out like a like a connection handshake protocol Yeah I think there were I'm sorry Yeah, go ahead. Hakan. No. Yeah, I totally agree with the handshake protocol because this is I think Mentioned and did come as well It could be like an out-of-bent or like a did exchange. I think in terms of handshake protocol for aries framers at least Yeah, I think we should figure out a way like agents like discover themselves like between one another and like I think that's The protocol like Like connection like agent discovery like that's similar. That's kind of what I'm thinking. Yeah as well And that can be an rft a new rft because we have this change for this can be one And that can be really really simple for this come with you Okay, interesting. Uh, Alex. Just so you're aware, uh, cod right? I'm sorry bruce That's that is in here. He is working with students In utah who are doing like a minimal implementation Of did come v2. They have a you know, a very fairly narrow window To work on it and I told him that that has similarities to kind of the jff Stuff that that you have been working on with brian and others And so he's he's got the link to the jff document that you guys have But I still think Maybe the transfer of information between his group and your group For how to kind of you know get up and running I would just love for that to be reflected somewhere um, so yeah, just The the kind of pain points that you guys went through or you know, what's the the the quickest path to you know transferring credentials and inspired by wacky But maybe not fully implementing wacky and not fully implementing did come v2 So I just wanted to make you aware of his work and I think I think you guys can benefit from each other. Maybe Bruce nice to meet you Nice to meet you. Alex. Yes, that would be that would be great In fact, our students aren't aren't even going to go so far as Exchange and verify verifiable credentials Their work will be done when they've managed to connect To pico's using did come v2 Okay, got it. So, okay So you guys trying to implement your own like did come libraries from scratch uh, starting with sick pa for the for the crypto Okay Bruce I I think I think the pico is going to be they're going to have a like an endpoint or they're going to need a mediator um Each each pico will be will be an agent with endpoints Okay, good Maybe that's going to be in a close like in a private network or just alive on the on the work Yes, uh, uh every pico when it's created is Is a cloud agent Okay, good Yeah, definitely. That's uh, that's some time and we can chat Yeah, that would be great. Um, if you would send me an email to get started Alex that would be fabulous Can you show me your email? Can you text me your email and then I can email you back? uh, it's it's it's in the the It's in the meeting notes at the top Oh, got it. Oh, yeah, I'll I get it from the from the link Okay, thanks Alex Okay, very good benefit from jf Okay, great. So so uh Lance given given their goal. I think it would be interesting if if the Aip three was even further subdivided In the In the overall diagram for self sovereign identity the the layered diagram that has verify verifiable data repositories at the at level one and agents connecting at level two And credential issuance and proof concepts at level three and governance at level four In So part of being an Aries agent is being able to connect And send messages You know starting with basic message and then custom protocols And that's level two of the diagram. I referred to sorry. I couldn't find it. I looked for it and Issuing credentials and proof requests and so forth our level two. Yeah, that's the one our layer three So I think it would be interesting if Aip three had A part that same for layer two This is what you need to have And for layer three you need to add on these things Yes, interesting and I think Haven't I seen recently a Maybe it was a did come v2 Breakdown Of this technology stack, but with did come v2 Does anybody remember that I feel like in the last I'll say three weeks maybe month And maybe it was at w Yeah, I think drum and read he has He has like a like an image where you have layer two Did come and layer three you have like did come protocols Yes, you're right That was the only difference that that's kind of like where did come Goes to and then he was comparing that to like oh idc. It's also like a layer three protocol For like exchanging credentials, right? Was that an iiw session that I missed I missed most of them Yeah, isn't isn't that the the torture of it Okay, I will Try to hunt that down Yes, give me a moment and yeah, I guess feel free to Well, what else do we want to talk about it? I guess let's let's um Do we yeah, how did we get to Let's see. Yeah, we introduced to bruce to Alex before that we were talking about hakan's work Yes, and with connections, right um, yeah Lance what I'm gonna do is like This list here updating. Yeah That the protocols to the sum to the version three like the issue credentials That's the walkie maybe moving to version three I'm gonna review the gold cold cold cold Please acknowledge Yeah, some like like simple updating to the latest protocols And maybe that also for the mediator on the one on the on the bottom I'll get to have the the latest yet. Yeah, and then we probably should work on all these connection reference or whatever Here somehow Yeah, is everybody are we able to what do we have here? There's notes here But this is okay. This is fairly recent. I haven't gone through these notes So it looks like at the very least people are able to post Oh, I didn't know that you can put notes Yeah, you can comment on it basically with uh shoes wherever you want to do it and make a right click Okay, right so we kind of talked about this Yeah, right. Okay But I still keep it there to put it at least as a note with the rfcs mentioned because these are rfcs that are already there on areas and since this is like kind of an areas in top of the profile 3.0 Uh, I think it's worth mentioning Right, okay. Yeah, great Everybody agrees with that. Yes All right, cool Um, let's see something you mentioned there roto um Regarding the goal codes Right, we talked about, um Right discovery protocol. I think we discussed this last week a little bit And I gosh I meant to this week do some this past week do some research to Better understand ways that did come the two agents can And discover more about each other than just their application protocols This concept that you know, okay, if you're not going to implement every part of did come How do you tell Another agent that well, these are the parts of did come that that I've implemented These are the did methods that I support these are the You know, maybe maybe there's some kind of crypto negotiations that you can do But kind of how do you do that right because You know at some point you get to the point. Well, you know, how do you even message each other at all or or trade information at all? So, yeah, that's super fuzzy for me. If anybody spent any time thinking about that. I'd love to hear ideas But that's something that I I still would like to Eventually have a have a good breakdown of and maybe using The trust over IP model To kind of highlight what can be discovered or maybe even, you know What are the the nuances because this is kind of what this spreadsheet Is supposed to be doing is showing You know, here are the considerations. We'll just call them considerations for now The layer one considerations that you need to do did come for instance v2 The layer two considerations the layer three considerations and then how you know, how does how do two agents that that may not have Implemented everything You know How to Even how do you discover why you couldn't interrupt? Yeah, but Lancy I post the like the link to the discover feature protocol inside the They didn't come. Oh, yes.  Yeah. So here you see that the discovery is like a query And and you query by a feature type And you can provide it like a matching also if you want So in this spec all I think they only mention Feature type protocol and feature type goal call Yeah, and the type of matching but you can it's a stencil.  So for a credential format And and that's I think is the way to to use the discover feature. Yeah, okay, so And sam seemed to agree with that as well When Maybe I'm just trying to think of timing at what point do we want to as a group kind of walk through this You know read up on it be aware of it and then kind of walk through You know, what could be some initial initial values that we'd put in here Um That would be more helpful for two agents To yeah, essentially discover their ability to to have you know to complete there did come Operations with one another Any thoughts on that or Also, if this seems like something way in the future that we you know, it shouldn't really be tackling now I'm fine with that as well I don't know but the other day you were mentioned like the walkie pegs that you can The attachment can be in different formats like the indy Yeah, the diff and the Chasona d So I don't know if that Can be something vulnerable To discover yeah, maybe a good starting point Okay I don't know if this is of interest, but even earlier in section 2.1 The media types um The the pico engine went as a web server, which is part of what it does It doesn't uh, currently Accept messages with any of those headers And so one of the first things the students will have to do is modify it so that it will accept it will at least accept a message At all Okay, yeah fair enough. I I think I think if we assume HTTP as the transport I think HTTP includes Queries for that kind of thing, but I don't know for sure So that might be as an initial starting point You have an endpoint that purports to be an aries agent. Well What uh, what media types does it support? Uh, you said if you said aries agent, but did you mean did come v2 agent or yes, I I meant to Agent that If it purports to be one Then then you could send an HTTP request asking Does it support any of these? media types If it doesn't then we can determine that it's not actually it did come v2 agent And if it doesn't support them all then we at least know where to where to begin probing. Yeah Then the problem is that the discover feature is after you're ready. Yes, you need to yes Yeah, exactly. Yes, that that comes later. Yeah That is true. So the the pic the picot is able to receive the message but not expecting that type of That the tip of on the header is if they receive this Yeah, the the the picot engine out of the box Just expects Expects the HTTP requests with a media type. I think it includes a json So it's it's it's very general But if you receive that will fail or will accept the message Uh, currently the way it's written if it receives a message with one of those media types, it just ignores it Okay, it's not a message. Okay Yeah, and so so that's the first thing the students will be doing will be to To open open the the picot engine as a HTTP server to those media types Okay Yeah, in in the trust over IP uh tech stack. I assume did convv2 enters in only on level two Uh, does it does it interact with level one at all? Not needed maybe to resolve like a d i d that the public is only vdr Okay, only for dead resolution I think so That makes sense Yeah And which is still a big deal, right? I mean even in the jff stuff alex It was kind of like, oh, you know, they're using a did web and you know This other person was just trying to do a did t and i'm doing a did pier, right? I mean Yeah I see what you mean. Yeah, there's a lot going on there, too I mean it would it would almost be nice to just rank the did methods like You know of the you know people out there, you know if if you know Here's the did methods that are most used or something like that and here's the reasons why pros and cons and Yeah, that would be very useful yeah and Yeah, so maybe I mean maybe this is a better way to connect the community I hadn't really been coming at it from from the trust over about trust over IP, you know layers But I yeah, I feel like maybe our work And Documenting the pain points and you know most most used did methods and things like that. It's probably better in this kind of View what what do you guys think? I I think so. I guess obviously Our students are basically going to be just in layer two Using using peer dids or even key dids Yeah fair enough And and they will be done when they've established connections at Layer two between between Among picos They would be it would be nice if they had time to interoperate They did spend some time looking at the area's test harness and didn't get very far But but they're the task fill when they set them wasn't to interoperate with Agents of with a dincon v2 of of any other kind Just among themselves. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense um and But uh, well Yeah, I mean that totally makes sense And then because interoperability is a lot harder Yes, it is Yeah, okay good Okay, we've got about 15 minutes left um I I I'll definitely send a message to drum and to track down His the start of his diagram um Well on the on the You know the the type uh working group release the The final document of the architecture, I think that is part of that diagram, but it really Define all the all the details within each layer Was presented on ii w as well Okay, but that didn't show did it wasn't in the context of did come v2, right? well inside the This Reference they define Oh, they they tell about did come v2. Oh, okay, that's worse, but yeah, I think they they mentioned did come v2 as an As a reference, so I think they mentioned carry or some AC Season of some Yeah transport like me Gotcha Okay I will Let's see you're saying that's the trust over ip um What do they call that the architecture stack? Yeah, I think so architecture stack A reference model Reference reference architecture something like that. Oh, maybe that's literally on that page that I was Model started with a vision White paper No, maybe this other page here technical architecture Ah this one I got it. It's this on the now it's on on the github. Okay Don't link You said github you meant the yeah, there we go This one, I don't know how it renders Yeah, probably it's rendering somewhere Okay, and it just links to this back. Well, okay, we'll find we'll find more stuff and um Try to connect Just that point of view since you know, it's it's gaining a lot of momentum All right, uh, so that I feel like that was a lot of Good discussion How can do do is there any kind of updates from your team and the work that you're doing? I love to get back to that um, just because it's You know, it's rooted in implementation So from the implementation point of view Judith started working on out-of-bends protocol message structure Uh fitting for ditcom v2 spec Okay, basically that's uh took to establish connection and set a v2 flag and the connection id uh in terms of akapai um from the point of Yeah, I guess some more discussions strategic discussions Tomorrow is the akapag meeting and then we're going to talk about a bit about Which Encryption envelope or message envelope library we want to use for akapai like there is one that has been already implemented for asca wallet There's like a python library. There's a rust library to see Uh, what the community at these akapai communities thinking about using as libraries Libraries for encryption. You said yeah libraries for message envelope. Okay and you said Ascar ascar python implementation, I think it's from daniel hartman Or rust implementation. Okay Good, I think I'll be able to make it to that but I'll have to double check Those are something good meetings All right, great I just once I just post the links to the rendered versions of Okay, so this is what they presented That iiw At least three digital exchange protocols Okay yeah we'll try to find We'll try to find that diagram that uh The drum and head All right, cool I'll put that in the notes as well And you had one other spec I think it's the same in same Gotcha All right good Okay, anything else We should maybe talk really quickly about our meetings Since we're coming up to the holiday times It is the 12th today So I would think we can probably sneak in one more meeting and then Is everybody okay with us canceling until the new year? Let me just look at the The calendar or you know, obviously if people want to meet they can um Looks like if we waited till You say cancel the Chinese six On the second of January. Okay How's everybody feel about that? Okay, I mean, I'm just taking the Christmas week off. Otherwise, I'll be available Okay, that would if we took yeah if we did the 26th and second off then that would put us back together on the 9th Sounds good Yeah, good. Okay. Okay. Good I will I think I'll just yeah, I think I can just message the calendar owner and he can And I'll post that as well in our discord Which I guess I'll post it in the discord literally asking him to remove those Okay, great Um anything else? I mean we I think we covered a lot of ground Um, I think it it would be good to maybe come back Yeah, just um, yeah, let's just continue to think of ways of discovering Interoperability Or implementation of did company to so that two agents can you know kind of negotiate how they're gonna Going to be able to interoperate And we'll consider the trust over IP stack more and then obviously we'll be following the Pull requests and and discussions within the aka pug and the aries javascript meeting Which I haven't been able to attend. I've been having there's a customer meeting. That's literally right right during that I used to go religiously to the I don't want to come to afj meetings, but the aries javascript meetings Um, I think alex you are able to attend the last Aries javascript meeting right Are you there? Yeah, yeah, I usually go to those. Um Yeah, Ariel did a demo of his uh his wallet last week Oh So you guys should check out the recording at the very every end. He had like a similar chat interface Uh to two hours Yeah, I liked it Yeah, okay. Yeah, I should definitely want to see that great um Okay, and and did also the sick of uh folks were they there and it was did they discuss the pr? Yeah, so there was like a little bit of discussion of like what the timeline of the pr was going to be it wasn't really discussion about the pr itself and they Like unfortunately timo wasn't there. So they didn't really go through any code And they were saying how it might take a couple of months for the code to get merged for the combi 2 in afj Uh, at least that was kind of like what mike was saying from uh northern block okay Yeah, fair enough That's uh, that was kind of like what was said last but i'm hoping that It's just because of the holidays and and whatnot, but uh, yeah, we'll see how that goes. I'll keep you guys posted Gotcha Hey, we have uh demetri here. Demetri you want to say something? Demetri You're muted if you're trying to speak I see your hand up Still muted if you're trying to speak demetri Okay, well, uh, yeah, feel free to type I guess. Um Okay, uh, let's see five minutes left. We can we can end now unless uh anyone else Demetri says hello hello and help me Demetri, I don't know if I can Okay, uh anything else that we want to cover That's a lot Okay Very good. It's always great to see you guys. Uh, I appreciate this very much. Um I don't know. I I do want to Honestly, I I don't have I haven't had enough time to really solidify kind of The documentation and everything that we've been doing for this other than what we have in our meeting notes But I do think um Yeah, some some a more solid way to kind of document all of the activities and different pain points is still a big goal of mine. I just Haven't had time to really Really put that together. I think eventually it'll come together, but uh, I think we're capturing a lot of Important ideas that will help that. So it's really good. All right. Thank you all Appreciate you and uh, yeah, we'll meet next week. Thank you. See you next time everyone. Bye. Bye. Bye


from San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering RSA Conference 2020 San Francisco, brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. Welcome back to RSA for CUBE coverage here at RSA Conference in Moscone. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Our next guest is Shaykar Sarukai, who's with the McAfee and he's a technical fellow, formerly chief scientist and co-founder of Sky High Networks, which was acquired by McAfee. We're really pioneering some of the, what we're seeing as cloud as the driver of the security paradigm. Shaykar, thanks for coming on theCUBE. John, thank you so much for coming here. I know you don't have a lot of time, so just jump right in. Cloud is changing the game. You guys saw this wave early at Sky High. So how has it rendered itself today? We're seeing the signals out there. Palo Alto Networks earnings were down this week because of their on-premise business and shifting to the cloud. We think they'll do well, but it's obviously impacting. Everyone's got a shift, including their customers. What's going on? This is amazing. Last year, I think about a few months back, we did a survey of large enterprises, but for the first time, we found that the majority of the CIOs and CISOs felt that cloud was more secure than on-prem. That's a big deal. I mean, I've never seen that before. I didn't expect it to be this quick, but that actually manifests itself in enterprises ready to be cloud-first, are very cloud-friendly, and that's significantly different from when we started Sky High and even a couple of years ago. And because of that, how you secure the data, how you secure who connects to it, the kind of threats need to be looked at at a different lens. And I mean, we've seen breaches happen every week. If you look back over the last year, and a lot of those are cloud-native threats. These are not malware-based breaches of data, which is what you would think of when you traditionally look at... Microservices breaches? No, these are cloud breaches because cloud has, it's very, it's good, right? It's got transparency, it's got APIs. So whatever APIs you use, a bad actor could use it as well. The way they land, exfiltrate, and expand in the cloud footprint is very different from how traditional malware attacks happen within your enterprise network. And so we've been looking at cloud-native threats and what it means to even secure data in the cloud, which is very different from securing data in your enterprise. For example, I may run a DLP on my laptop, to check what kind of sensitive data is out there. But in the cloud, you don't do that, right? Because the data is cloud-native. And we, in our analysis, we've seen that 50% of traffic is cloud-to-cloud. So it bypasses your traditional enterprise network. It bypasses your devices. And so when you talk of data protection, you need to look at new ways of understanding cloud and integrating into it. Yeah, it's interesting. I've talked to many CISOs who have been cloud-native and born in the cloud, and they say their worst day in the cloud for security is better than any day they've had on-premise. In other words, security, there's actually more security in the cloud. But then when they start getting into hybrid, and now what we see is multi-clouds, that third wave coming, you start to look at on-premise-to-cloud, cloud-to-cloud, you have a network component, becomes a big part of it. Could you share your vision on how the network needs to evolve? Because Amazon and Azure, they've got their own networks. But it's also not on-premise either. So if I want to run a route from here to here, is the impact, what's the network impact? Yeah, I mean, I don't think network-based security control is going away. And if you look at what McAfee announced today, is what we call the unified cloud edge. We acknowledge that security is in depth. At the endpoint, at the cloud, and in the network. So we are the first product really to have integrated policies and visibility into data flow between the clouds, to and from the cloud, and in the device. And so in that model, you have a network component. So we use our secure web gateway, which is cloud hosted. So interestingly, you'll see that a lot of security tools are also becoming cloud-native. And so that's what we leverage. Our cloud-native, cloud security platform, cloud-native SWG, the web gateway, as well as EDR and endpoint protection from the cloud. Let me ask you a question, as a chief scientist, Nuru, that you are. The security posture of companies certainly has changed with the cloud. How would you describe the current posture from a customer with respect to the cloud in a good way? What do they need to be thinking about? Yeah, I think, actually, Gartner said it very well. In fact, a couple of years, last year, they had a MQ, which they actually said that 99% of your data breaches in the cloud is going to be because of customer fault. And it may be the most trivial things, but those are the ones which get you, right? And it turns out that while cloud is easy and quick to adopt, it's very easy to misconfigure stuff. So human error. Yeah, it's completely. And I kid you not, majority of the issues are failure to understand your shared responsibility model. It's hard to call so many a breach when the door is wide open. They're just walking through it. That's not really a breach. That's called just the door's open. They walk through. I mean, that's what you're talking about here. Yeah, exactly. And it's the responsibility of the customers to configure it appropriately. And I think that'll take care of the lowest hanging fruit for them. And then as they evolve their workloads moving into the cloud, they need to think about hybrid and not get into the trap of creating silos. So as a classic example, right? Security vendors, we're great at building that ton of products and companies around it. There's container security, there's VM security, there's cloud security. But at the end of the day, a customer is moving their workload and application into cloud. They need a consistent way to ensure that the configurations are right, the data is secure, and there's no threats to it. And we need to make that model of simplicity of consistency across all of these kinds of things. So it's clear that Macapy's transforming their business to cloud. You guys have been a big part of that. Congratulations. How would you describe Macapy's current situation with respect to the cloud growth, now the on-premise cloud hybrid integration and multi-cloud coming? Because you now have this entire systems architecture, aka cloud, multi-cloud hybrid public. All need to work together. You know, I think Macapy's very well positioned in this. I mean, honestly, when we joined Macapy, Macapy's strength was in the endpoint. And actually, they had a very good business in the server endpoint as well with the CWS product. When we came into the cloud-native approach where, and that product was selling very well for the private data center on-prem. What we were able to do is add a cloud security story, but also sort of be the catalyst for Mvision. Mvision is really this broad umbrella within Macapy for doing not only cloud security, but EDR, insights, not products which can run in the cloud at scale in a multi-tenant manner, you know, to secure it. And you can create a data-driven approach to make that human personalization work so they don't forget to secure that S3 bucket. Exactly. Which is the biggest problem, right? It's kind of like when you get out of your car, it's like you left your keys in. Exactly. I mean, there's a new level of personalization coming from the data. That's right. You see that as itself. We do. Clearly, what we see with customers is that going back to the shared responsibility model, it's almost like you rent a car. The renter has some responsibilities, the rental agency, and the car manufacturer responsibilities, and all of us have an understanding of what those responsibilities are. At the end of the day, I was just talking to another guest, we were saying, hey, the roles use the data to tell the human not to screw up. Yeah.  That's right. And doing it in real time, because configurations change in the CICD pipelines in real time, right? And being able to catch that, and what we've done as part of Mac, over the last year, is do something which we call shift left, which is really before an application is born to make it secure. And it's possible in the cloud because it's very transparent. We can, and infrastructure is code. So as the code gets checked in, we can validate it and... Well, I'm glad you wrote that point real quick. I know you got to go, DevOps has been a real influence on a lot of infrastructure as code, but now you have SecOps, DevSecOps. So it's all kind of the same melting pot of agility, iteration, real time. What's your version of security, version of DevOps? Yeah, it is that. It is basically rather than playing back a mole after the fact, you know, going and looking at configuration failures or DLP or whatever, push it. And it actually helps the security team because they don't have bandwidth. They want to be able to co-opt developers and there's literally 100x more developers than security folks. And so being able to integrate it into the tooling for continuous integration deployment is something we've done. And it's a huge win for customers. Well, Shagya, thanks for sharing the insight. We'll be at your Mpower event coming up. We'll do more interviews there and do a deep dive. But real quick, what are you working on right now that's exciting? That's getting you motivated. That puts a little spring into your step. What's happening? Oh, I mean, there's a huge issue around cloud native threats and how we use MITRE and other frameworks to make the SOC teams more, you know, not get lost in all the noise. And you'll see a lot of that work from us, but there's a lot of exciting work. A lot of innovation coming out of that? A lot of innovation. A software-driven, obviously. Cloud-driven. Cloud-driven. Well, we'll get back and talk about some of the cloud-native nuances around Kubernetes, service mesh, state, date, state. Which we've done a lot of that, too. We've done a lot of action, a lot of tech. A lot of potential opportunities, but also challenges. Tiger, thank you for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate it. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. We're here on the ground at RSA Conference. We'll be right back. Thanks for watching.


That was a gain of 1.2% in the Dow industrials as well as the S&Ps, 1.4% in the NASDAQ. Gold. Gold contract continues higher. Gold is in an ABC structure on the way up with a price projection folks of $1,585. Right now you're at $1,484, you're up $8, Silver up 4 cents, $16.44 an ounce, Light Sweet Crude down a buck, $53.69 a barrel, Light Sweet Crude folks, okay it's going to go run after this $50 number. Notes and bonds just continue a higher price lower yield, you had the 10-year up 2 ticks, $129.30, 30-year up 25 ticks at $1.161.16, if we go take a look at this 10-year yield, you're going to see it's pretty amazing, bottom line had hit 1.67% last night, we closed out this session with 1.71, you're at the lower end of the range of the trading all day long out here, the top end of this range was 1.716, the bottom end was at 1.67, 1.31 is game, 1.31 by the way is the low, the all-time low of the 10-year yield, we break that baby and guess what, bottom line what's next, zero, we'll see where it's shaking out but these rates they're coming down and both the, you have gold doing an ABC structure up, you have notes and bonds doing an ABC structure up on price, an ABC structure down on yield, $Kingdala, $Kingdala up 117 ticks out here today, 97.425, if we get open and take a look at Kingdala, Kingdala had failed last week, added ties, the bulls and bears been fighting on Kingdala in a huge amount of time, no doubt about that, Kingdala got back inside its lower range, anything inside of 97.715, as in your lower range, that sets up that good old Kingdala can get down into the area of 94, if we go back to the S&Ps it looks to me like we're setting up a B to C of a much larger ABC structure on the way down, what you had out here today, you got a nice bounce, 108 million shares, guess what, you're downtown on 178, big numbers, stay right there folks, you'll get more numbers coming out after the close to recap out here, we had the Dow Industries finish up 311, Nasdaq up 107, S&Ps up 53, we'll come right back.