I'd like to begin with a land acknowledgement and then I'll pass it over to Nicola Lut to introduce our speaker. The Archeological Research Facility is located in the Chin, the ancestral and unceded territory of the Chichenya-speaking Aloni people, successors of the historic and sovereign Verona Band of Alameda County. We acknowledge that this land remains of great importance to the Aloni people and that the ARF community inherits the history of archeological scholarship that has disturbed Aloni ancestors and raised living Aloni people from the present and future of this land. It is therefore our collective responsibility to critically transform our archeological inheritance in support of Aloni sovereignty and to hold the University of California accountable to the needs of all American Indian and indigenous people. So with that, I'd like to invite Nic Lut to introduce our speaker. Great, great. Thank you, Nico. Yeah, so Joseph Aguilar is a role member of the San Yldefonso Pueblo in New Mexico and currently serves as archaeologist with the Bering Straits Native Corporation and is also the Pueblo's Deputy Tribal Historic Preservation Officer. Dr. Aguilar completed his PhD from Department of Anthropology at University of Pennsylvania and his general research interests include indigenous archeology, museums, landscape archeology and tribal historic preservation. He is currently working on an exhibit and content development for several museums, including the Museum of Indian Arts and Culture in Santa Fe, the De Young Museum of Art in San Francisco and the Chapin Mesa Archeological Museum at Mesa Birdie National Park and for the School for Advanced Research in Santa Fe, New Mexico. And I want everybody to join me in welcoming Dr. Aguilar to give us our talk today. Thank you. Good afternoon, folks. Thanks for having me. And thank you to Nick Lalu for making this happen and the folks at the ARF for hosting me. I wish I could have done this in person. Like many of you, I'm sure you guys have missed other commitments in person. So maybe one day I'll get back out there, I hope. So yeah, I'm just gonna talk very briefly about some of the work I've been doing as it relates to the archeology of the Pueblo Revolt here in my home Pueblo of New Mexico. And before I go further, Patrick Naranjo, thanks for acknowledging me in my work. It's good to see and know that there's some Pueblo folks and other indigenous folks out there at Berkeley. So yeah, it's a good knowing that and thanks for your words. So my work for my dissertation at the University of Pennsylvania focused on the historical and kind of anthropological history of the Pueblo Revolt of 1680 and its aftermath. I chose to study the Revolt as it relates to my own home community of San Aldefonso Pueblo where I'm calling from now because it's a pivotal point in Pueblo history. Many of the events that occurred during that period have direct effects and consequences on contemporary Pueblo people today. So it was important for me to kind of dive in into that history and offer a new perspective on the Revolt because what we've been presented with was very one-sided. It was void of any indigenous voices and I felt we needed to remedy that. So I did it in my way by bringing archaeology, critical review of ethno-historic records and incorporating indigenous worldviews, including oral histories into this work so combining those kind of disparate components of the past was a challenge but I did my best and so I'll present some of the results of my work and where I hope to be headed with my work in the future. So like I mentioned in our communities, we learn about our histories in different ways non-Western ways, if you will. And outside of our communities, we learn about our history through schools, museums, popular books and this is taught to us by anthropologists, archeologists, popular writers, almost all of whom are non-Pueblo people so my work, like I said, is informed by my own traditional values and academic discourse. So all of this is kind of founded by the tenants of the burgeoning field of indigenous archeology and I view the public revolt, which was an indigenous insurrection against the European settler colonialists and an insurrection against European settler colonialism as an assertion of indigenous sovereignty. So the overarching goal of my work is to present an indigenized anthropological history of events surrounding this era and I used the term indigenized specifically rather than decolonized because the events that I'm analyzing, this period of Pueblo Revolution in 1680 from about 1680 to 1696, that was to me, in my view, was a truly decolonizing event. It was necessarily violent, but in my view, those actions and the course of actions that were taken by Pueblo people then were truly decolonial. So I choose to use indigenized because I'm not ready, I'm not equipped, I'm not totally prepared to decolonize archeology or museums or whatever else I engage myself in because those are really drastic actions and we can chat more about that later if you want. So I'll begin with a quick slideshow and I hope this works. We were trying to work out the kinks in this before we came on. Everybody see this, okay? Good? Looks good. Okay, cool. So this Mesa here that you see, I mean, it's just outside my window here. If I could pick up my computer and put the camera out here, you'd see this Mesa. We refer to this Mesa as Tuño in the table language. It's one of the four cardinal Mesa surrounding our Pueblo. So in Pueblo cosmology, the four directions, six directions are important and this Mesa marks the north for our Pueblo. And it's an imposing place. It's a spiritual place. It's a beautiful place and it's in my backyard. So this work is very near and dear to me for these reasons. So founding this work at the foundation of a lot of the work that I do are indigenous and collaborative archeologies. The decolonizing mission set forth by indigenous archeology is a response to the colonial frameworks that continue to deeply influence institutions of knowledge and power. So at stake for indigenous peoples in this endeavor are the inherent right to control and contribute to the production of knowledge about our cultures and histories. The inherent right to protect, preserve and present our heritage on our terms and the inherent right to present our own accounts of our history and our past. At the core of this mission is the recognition that as a Western scientific practice, archeology doesn't hold a monopoly on understanding the past and that archeology can benefit from engaging with non-Western, i.e. indigenous peoples and perspectives. So although collaborative and indigenous archeologies both advocate interaction with stakeholder values, knowledge, practices, ethics and sensibilities, they differ on one central point. Collaborative archeology is defined as a range of strategies that seek to link the archeological enterprise with different publics by working together. In contrast, indigenous archeology identifies and privileges a very specific public, which is indigenous peoples. So indigenous archeology is not a single idea, but rather a broad approach that incorporates a diverse array of indigenous ontologies, practices and peoples. Accordingly, indigenous archeology is highly contextual with the goals, methods and outcomes of interaction differing across tribal communities. So for example, my way of practicing or promoting indigenous archeology will vary and differ from, say, Nick Lawlick's way of doing a form of indigenous archeology. So some of the foundations of indigenous archeology, it's rooted in some forms of Native American activism. Joe Watkins, a Choctaw archeologist, states that archeology is the study of people, not things, and that these people have a present and a future as well as a past and that archeologists must integrate the concerns of the American Indian people with their research. What Watkins is essentially calling for is a fundamental shift in the way that archeologists operate. And he published his volume back in 2000. So it's relatively a recent trend, a recent movement within archeology, but it's gaining momentum. So instead of viewing indigenous people as objects, archeologists must acknowledge that Native people are living people with a unique set of complex histories and identities. In this sense, archeologists must begin to think of themselves as working with Indian people instead of working on Indian people. Underlying indigenous critiques of archeology and a formulation of indigenous and tribal archeologies are the writings of Vine Deloria Jr. In his book, Huster Died for Your Sins, he articulates Native sovereignty and very kind of bluntly rejects the colonial project of archeology and anthropology. One of the greatest contributions of his work is his ability to articulate the distaste that many Native people have felt for the pretenses of science. Deloria's primary objection to the anthropological study of indigenous people is that historically, there's been no ethical relationship between the subject and the scientist. For Deloria, the meticulous gathering of anthropological knowledge is detached from the plight of its subjects. And I like using his quote there that the compilations of useless knowledge for an archeologist's sake should be utterly rejected by the Indian people because for much of the history of the discipline of archeology, there's been no benefit to Native people. And it's Native people themselves who have kind of turned the tables within the discipline. So I like turning to Deloria for some of his critiques of archeology. So as it applies to the public revolt of 1680, I'd like to discuss a little bit how the foundations of indigenous archeology, the tenants of indigenous activism, how they apply to the work that I'm doing. But first I'll begin with the kind of brief summary of the revolt of 1680. It's aftermath and some of the ongoing kind of historical effects of the revolt. So this quote here is a quote from Pedro Naranjo of Santa Clara Pueblo as recorded by Governor Antonio Oderman who was the territorial governor of New Mexico in 1680. Many of his journals have been translated by Hackett and Shelby at the University of New Mexico from Spanish into English. And so a lot of my work is based on the translations of those journals themselves. But as I mentioned before, these sources are one-sided, very biased, void of public voices. Nonetheless, they still provide an important resource for kind of broad kind of historical facts. I mean, historical interpretations of this period. So I like using this quote in 1680, Oderman refers to Popeye as coming down in person, ordering the publics through which he passed that they instantly break up and burned images of the Christ, the Virgin Mary, the other saints, the crosses and everything pertaining to Christianity, that they burned the temples and break up the bells. Again, a true act of decolonization. So while the initial act of the public revolt in 1680, the uprising is well-known in the kind of annals of history, what is lesser known is the attempts at reconquest after the revolt. There were several failed attempts at reconquest. And in one case, Vargas, who was the person to lead one of the major efforts at reconquest for the Crown of Spain, he led a couple expeditions into New Mexico to reclaim the former territory of New Mexico. At one point, he took ritual possession of New Mexico. He toured the Pueblos where he was cautiously greeted, and where he promised a new peaceful era of Pueblo and Spanish cohabitation in the region. So this quote here, and I'll just read it, is from his journals from about 1690 to 1696. In view of their having relapsed into apostasy again, and as such being traitors to and enemies of our holy faith, I ordered a death sentence carried out against these criminals, the agitators, leaders, captains, and other Indians who caused the people of these nations to leave their Pueblos, escaping to the Mesa summits and Canyaras to fortify themselves in those places, and who with them may be safe from this punishment they have so deserved. So here he's talking about Pueblos who have sought refuge in their Mesa-topped communities after his return to New Mexico. So while Vargas has been coined the peaceful reconqueror, Anoxymoron, if I've ever heard one, a lot of his own words and actions kind of contradict that peaceful narrative that's been kind of put forth. So this narrative of the bloodless reconquest of New Mexico has been challenged in recent years by indigenous peoples, independent indigenous native-led organizations who have called for an end to the celebration or the glorification of colonialism reconquest. So what you're seeing here on the right is a picture of an annual, what used to be an annual reenactment of Vargas's reconquest of New Mexico, which has been coined a peaceful reconquest of the region. It's been met in recent years with protests by indigenous groups. So here you have a photo on the left of indigenous people protesting in downtown Santa Fe where this event was held annually. This was about three or four years ago where things came to a head during the scheduled reenactments of the reconquest. There was some arrest, there was some violence and after some debate, after lots of kind of discussions both in different forums and venues, the group Caballeros de Vargas who put on this commemorative event eventually dropped the Intrada portion of their celebration. So, I mean, it's a contentious issue here that's still very kind of hotly debated to this day. So these are kind of the lingering ongoing effects of this event in New Mexico. So moving to my work, I look at the events during this period from a broader perspective, a landscape perspective and at the onset of Vargas's reconquest mission, the center of gravity of the public world shifted from mission villages which were at or near watersheds such as the Rio Grande. A lot of their mission villages had been contaminated through bloodshed and people sought the protection of upland areas near their homes. The deliberate movement to Mesa villages was the result of many different strategies of resistance as public communities anticipated the return of the Spaniards. After all, prior to Vargas, there had been several failed attempts to subdue the public by Antonio Oterman and others prior to Vargas. So it characterized the reconquest for the Pueblos was not only its violence but the Pueblos' adamant resistance to it. So while the Pueblos made some compromises and accommodations and even in some cases made some alliances with Vargas, resistance was overwhelmingly constant throughout his reconquest. So at the time, three major centers of resistance emerged, one surrounding the Cochiti district with the Keras people. Another in the Hamas district which surrounded over the resistance of the Toa people Toa-speaking people and in the Tewa district here at Tunio at San Francisco Pueblo where the Tewas coalesced together. So Vargas' reconquest looks like this after taking a ritual possession in 1692, he returned to Mexico presumably to gather more supplies and settlers. And when he returned to the area he found the former capital of Santa Fe heavily fortified and occupied by Tewa people. Vargas then attacks the former capital and he executes public leaders publicly executes public leaders within its plaza. After this, there was wholesale movement of public folks to Mesa top villages. And in 1694, he began his military campaign against the Mesa top villages. In 1696, what is commonly referred to as the second public revolt which was just a continuation of the Mesa top resistance. This was quickly put down by Vargas because he was a little more prepared at this point. It's important also to note that the revolt of 1680 and the events of the resistance surrounding the resistance of the reconquest in the mid 1690s was not an isolated event. There's been a long history of resistance to Spanish settler colonialism in the region by publics that is still to this day poorly understood but we do have a ethnohistorical record of this resistance which has been compiled here through a series of smaller uprisings and revolts beginning in 1623 all the way through 1696. 1696 however, marks the kind of last major kind of violent resistance to Spanish settler colonialism. Again, a different view of Tuneo or Black Mesa cardinal Mesa to the North for the Tewa people. This is where the focus of my work is centered. So I'll dive into the events that surround the reconquest at Tuneo. When the rebel enemies of the Tewa nations and their followers discovered us at the base of the Mesa they gave great war cries, crowding the tops of the Mesa, it's Panyoliz and all around it. They said they were awaiting the Hamas, Keras, Coachti, Apache, Zuni, Mokino and many other nations. They spoke shameful words which led us to fire a few shots at the people but the heavy snow did not permit bringing the war in the proper manner. We saw that there was a risk of losing the battle completely because of how fortified the enemy was. So this quote is taken from Vargas's journals and this is kind of his assessment, his initial assessment of the Mesa in February of 1694 where it was covered in snow but yet people were occupying the top of the Mesa's. And at this point there was at least nine Tewa Pubblos who sought refuge on top of this Mesa. And we'll talk a little bit more about the groups who were up there. Because of the snow at Tuneo, Vargas turned his attention to the other center, one of the other centers of resistance which was at Old Coachti or Hanukut yet were people from Coachti, San Marcos and San Felipe Pubblos had occupied the Mesa after a bloody battle in April of 1694 after which 342 women and 13 warriors were captured. He captured the Mesa on April 17th, burned a village and returned to Santa Fe where he could refocus his attention to Tuneo. And on the right of this picture is the remnants of the Pubblos on top of the Mesa to the left. Turning back to Tuneo on March 4th, his first Vargas, his first major offensive took place in which he claims to have captured the southern portion of the Mesa. But he was not able to take the rest of the Mesa because it was protected by a defensive wall according to his journals. But if you take a look at the top of the Mesa, we see no archeological evidence of a defensive wall. So this is where kind of comparing archeology in the ground to the ethnohistorical record can bring up some kind of neat comparisons. And you can kind of parse out what may be or may not be real about these historical accounts. So between later in the month of March, he made several futile attempts to take the Mesa. One of the strategies included using public ladders which were taken from Santa Clara Pueblo to scale the steepest parts of the Mesa. This was a futile attempt as the Mesa was just too steep and impermeable. So after this attempt, he again returned to Santa Fe to regather himself. He then turned his attention to Guadalupe Mesa in the Hamas region, which was occupied by Toa people and some Keras people from Santa Domingo Pueblo. In July of 1694, 84 Toa people and Keras people were killed at a battle in which they tried to defend the Mesa. After this event, he turned his attention back to Chuno in September of 1694 where he, and this time he gained allies from Zia, Santa Ana and San Felipe Pueblos who were all Keras speaking Pueblos. He also had allies from Pecos and Hamas Pueblos, both Toa speaking villages. So during these days Vargas's tactics included destroying fields in the valley below, cornfields where Pueblo folks supplemented themselves. He did this in plain view of the Toa defenders on top of the Mesa. On September 8th of the same year, negotiations began to take place between Toa folks on the Mesa and Vargas and eventually the Toa and Vargas and his allies negotiated a peaceful surrender, a peaceful end to the siege at the Mesa. So in this way, the Mesa Atunio was never taken by Vargas. It's a point of pride for Toa folks that they were able to successfully defend themselves against Vargas and he was not able to take the Mesa in the same way that he did at Coach T and Hamas Pueblos. So as I said, there were several attempts at Spanish reconquest but there were a few attempts reconquest prior to Vargas. This is just to go back to the ongoing resistant strategies that Pueblo folks took against Spanish colonial settlers. And in my work, I take a place-based approach to understanding this time period. And what I mean by a place-based approach is that I emphasize the interdependence of time, space and history. And my starting point is the idea that places embody history both physically and spiritually and that historical memories are given life when people re-encounter these places. This place-based perspective is essential for the further development of indigenous archeology in a couple of ways. First, this approach embraces the strong link that Pueblo and other indigenous peoples maintain with their past. For Pueblo people, there is no disconnect between place and time. The contemporary world is that and that of their ancestors are embedded in the same place. It is this reality that generates our continuing attachment to these places. Second, a place-based perspective furthers the aims of an indigenous archeology by reflecting by rejecting the false dichotomy between history and prehistory and the implicit assumption that these places of history are linked to entangled European indigenous encounters while places linked exclusively to an indigenous past are part of prehistory. So the Cardinal Mesa's located in the Cardinal directions near villages, Taylor villages are especially venerated. For example, Tuniel on the top right of the map there. Or Black Mesa is located due north of our Pueblo and it figures prominently in many, excuse me. Figures prominently in many of our traditions at San Luis Fonso and it is but one place on the cosmological landscape of our people. So while the events that happened there are important is the place itself and all that it embodies physically and spiritually that holds the highest importance. So my work is an example of an indigenous researcher working with my own community. And it's intended to provide inspiration to other indigenous students who have an interest in pursuing archeology by providing insight into the ways in which I have engaged with my own community. I hope to illustrate the successes and pitfalls of my approach. So my choice to do archeology at the village of Tuniel which is occupied by my own ancestors provides an opportunity to engage with my own community's history. This also requires me to consider the implications of my research while reflecting upon my own subjectivities. Methodologically, I'm committed to providing suitable alternative archeological methods to indigenous people who may have a vested interest in archeology but are concerned with the limitations of traditional site-based survey methods and wish to refrain from engaging in invasive archeological practices. So in my work, I focused on the cartographic documentation of the Mesa and I used drones or unmanned aerial vehicles which provided a more culturally appropriate alternative to other less appropriate methods like excavation or ground surveys. And this had virtually no physical impact on the heritage resources of the Mesa. Aside from being more culturally appropriate, it provides a more efficient and precise means of creating topographical maps and maps of habitation places. And it should appeal to all archeologists regardless of their methodological leanings. So the project itself, I named it the Tuniel Research Project. And some of the main goals were to identify and understand the social processes and strategies of resistance surrounding the founding and occupation of Tuniel during the public revolt period and incorporate archeology into San Diego Fonso Pueblo's own understandings of the second place within the context of public revolt history. The central focus was to assess the context of the nature of the archeology of the public revolt village on top of Tuniel as well as to evaluate the ethnographic and historical data within the context of revolt settlement patterns. The main component of the archeological investigations involve the mapping of the Mesa village and its associated defensive features. Because there's so much work to do at the Mesa, I really wish I could do it all, but just given the scope of the dissertation and my research there, I chose to, instead of trying to do everything, I chose to do smaller pilot projects for my dissertation, in addition to the main component, which was the mapping. So I engaged in a pilot ceramic kind of analysis of the Mesa. Some of the ceramics you see here are what are called Tewa Polychrome, which date directly to the public revolt period itself in the mid-161690s. I also did a pilot rock art survey where I kind of did a informal survey, pilot survey, just like it's called, of some of the rock art features on and around the Mesa. So this involved me just hiking around basically and there's a picture of me on the left kind of dangerously scaling the edge of a cliff to document some rock art there at Tuneo. I did a defensive features survey. So what you see here is a wall fortification, the remnants of a wall fortification on top of the Mesa that were constructed in an effort to prohibit Vargas and his allies from scaling the Mesa and there's an abundance of these defensive fortifications on and around the Mesa. I also did a informal survey of ammunition caches and these ammunition caches, if you look at the picture on the right are just collections or aggregations of river rock, quartz cobbles that were used as projectiles against Vargas and his troops. And this quote was taken directly from Vargas's journals where he directly references the use of these stones where he says the danger to the men of being killed was great because this place is so impregnable. The Mesa was completely rocky and covered with boulders and the enemy so well prepared that they had many rocks from the river to bombardus, hurling them with slings. So that's kind of an interesting kind of neat comparison of the ethnomastoric record with the archeology. So what I did in my work was create kind of visuals, maps that helped me interpret the lay of the land, if you will. This map shows the distribution of these types of defensive features. Many of the defensive features occur only on the most accessible portions of the Mesa. So if you take a look at the green lines, they represent trails. And these are parts of the Mesa where the topography allows for human access or foot access to the Mesa. So on the left of the Mesa where you had that very steep topography against the river, there's no need to create fortifications there because the Mesa is naturally defended by an 80-foot cliff. So I found this distribution to be kind of cool and very telling of the military strategy that table folks were engaged with. And this is just a close-up of those features at Tuneo, some of the fortifications and the ammunition caches. So for the last phase of this research, I partnered with Archeo Geophysical Associates, Chet Walker and Mark Willis who are really awesome, who are pioneers really in the mapping of archeological sites and features with drones.  So I outsource some of my work. So any of you grad students out there outsource your stuff. It's, as long as you get approval from your advisors, these guys are really awesome. They came in and did work in ways that I couldn't in my own tons. So that's a picture of one of the drones that they flew over the Mesa. Here's some of the methods we used. So data acquisition was accomplished through a digital process called photogrammetry. So the drones were set on a specific path. So the alignments there of circles you see is the path of the drones. Each one of the circles represents a photo that was taken while the drone was in flight. All these photos were stitched together like a quilt, geo reference with targets on the ground. This is where the Mark and Chet's expertise comes in. And with this data, they were able to create really cool hillshade relief maps that really brought out the topography of the ruined settlement on top of the Mesa. So if you look at the kind of dimpled surface of the Mesa there, these high resolution images, we can have the architecture, and this is architecture that we're seeing, it begins to really pop out. So it's very different from a lot of the other revolt era sites in the region. I showed you a picture of the remnants of the village at Cochiti, where you have masonry walls that are in some cases still standing. Here the topography doesn't allow for that type of architecture to be built. So instead you have a kind of unique form of architecture on top of the Mesa. This was my kind of best estimation of what this looks like. Each of these kind of polygons represents pitch structure of some sort, which I presume were used as a habitation spaces. So unlike masonry architecture, which leaves a very clear material signature later in the form of standing walls, what we have on Tapatunio is a lot different. So this informal construction or architectural type may be consistent with the fact that the move to Tapatunio happened very quickly and involved multiple social groups from different publics in response to Vargas's military campaign. And there's no historical descriptions of the Mesa itself or its architecture because Vargas never made it to here. And so parsing all of this out was like really interesting. And while I'm still, for the dissertation I did what I could, as far as interpreting the architecture here, there's still lots to be analyzed with this data and there's so much more to do. Here's just a close-up of some of that that kind of topography that was created with the drone imagery. And when I talk about broadening indigenous archeology, what I hope to do with this work is provide kind of new avenues for archeological research that aren't kind of rooted in the colonial foundations of a Western architecture and traditionally practice archeology. I really hope to present new perspectives, new ways of understanding. And I continue to do this with some of the work I'm proposing for Tapatunio. I had hoped to talk more about an oral history project that we propose with the National Park Service but we didn't get funded for that program. And so we're reformulating our proposal to make it more attractive to the funders at the Park Service. So what I hope to do in this next phase of work with anthropological research affirm based in Tucson, Arizona is to collect oral histories and more ethnographic information about the Mesa from our own people because as it is in many indigenous communities especially with the onset of the COVID pandemic we're beginning to lose elders and with them a lot of these stories go with them. So the next component is heavily focused on ethnography and collecting oral histories in the public as they relate to Tunio. And I hope to combine this with some of the previous work I did on the archeology of Tunio and just create new narratives that challenge outdated ones rooted in colonial histories. So if I went a little bit over, I apologize but I have some time or if there is some time I'll be happy to take some questions. Thank you for your time this afternoon. Thanks very much, interesting talk. So yes, please post your questions or comments in the chat or we can also have you ask them directly you can raise your hand and resume and ask them directly. I see a question here from he says, many thanks for your great talk in your Tunio research and your mapping of the habitation fits. On top of the Mesa, did you find very many material remains near or in the pits? Yeah, on top of the Mesa itself there weren't very many artifacts that we observed. Again, I didn't do 100% survey but just based on my informal surveys there's not a whole lot up there. And this could be because folks just didn't take very much up there. Or it could be because of the tumultuous period that surrounded the occupation of the Mesa. There just wasn't a whole lot to be found in the aftermath of war. That's really what it comes down to. This is a battlefield and it's a unique battlefield because the battle didn't happen on and even kind of playing it happened vertically. So I have a lot of investigations to do like on the slopes, the talus slopes but as far as the top of the Mesa there wasn't a lot of fighting that happened on top of the Mesa but rather on the slopes themselves. See a question here from June since Sarah. June, do you wanna ask you a question? Yeah, just in case my connection's been spotty. Hey, thank you for that excellent talk, sir. Appreciate it. Man, super sweet drone maps. Very impressive. And having been asked by a couple of community partners to help them demonstrate some of the kinds of things that are threatening their heritage sites including lots of erosion from cattle that the Forest Service is running on the site or things like that. I was wondering if some of those fantastic maps you have you did a like a, you had, when did you take those shots with the drone? What year was that? That was back in 2016, no, 18 maybe? I forget, it's been so long ago. Yeah, I know, I know, I know. I mean, I did shots in Mali in like 2012 and I'm still trying to follow up but like the idea that now there's been a few monsoon seasons, some rains and things like that. Is it a priority of Steno de Fonso to kind of think about what erosion impacts are on the site now? Like it is for some of my community partners who want to negotiate how to protect the site. One of the first questions is, well, what do you want to do to protect it? And they want to use some of these kinds of three dimensional topographic models to demonstrate how erosion is affecting their site. You know, like it's head cutting these little arroyos into the site that's causing damage to the adobe or maybe it's deflating the site through some other measures. And they want to demonstrate that their archeological partnership is generating some data that they can use in those negotiations. So they, you know, having us go back up there and do another three dimensional topographic map, we can do like a comparative volumetric and I'm still working that jazz out. And I was kind of thinking, man, here's a guy who's got some pretty rad data, you know, up on your Mesa. And it might be cool to see what, you know, or has that, has that been expressed to you as a priority for Samuel de Fonso to do that kind of thing? It hasn't been expressed as a priority. And this is why our philosophy on preservation is not a standard Western one. So we're not necessarily concerned with preserving a site for preservation sake. If a site is eroding or is being being affected by the kind of natural processes, that's the natural kind of course that some of these places take. And it's not our place to artificially preserve them where they're not meant to be preserved in that way. So that's our preservation philosophy might be a little different from maybe the groups that you work with. But drones certainly are a really good way to document these changes over time. Because you can get to the very fine details of like soil volumes and rock displacements and things like that with this type of data. So I could put you in touch with these guys who could do this work, unless you know them already. No, no, I don't. Thank you. I would appreciate that. Thanks, because yeah, I mean, it sounds like with the natural processes, that's something that also great and has talked about how that's returning back to the world and the way it's meant to be. I think that the community partners that I work with that are concerned about like overgrazing that's being allowed by the Forest Service, you know, that's a little different than like just rainstorms, I think like that. But yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm very interested in providing that as a service to those communities who invited me. So yeah, you know, if you could hook me up, I'd appreciate it, sir. Yeah, we'll chat. Thank you, sir. Do you have any other questions or comments? Is there one more question, Niko, in the chat? There's one from Chew. I, yeah, I can have a notch. Thank you for your great talk, Dr. I'd be like, oh, you're here, would you like to ask me? Yeah, just, thank you, Dr. Aguilar. That was a great talk. I was just wondering about that Tewa Polychrome that you showed us, like where did that come from if it's not from up on Mesa? And how is that related to your studies of a kind of revolt period activities in the area? Yeah, that wasn't from the Mesa itself. I think that pot is from the School for Events Research Collections or the Museum of Indian Arts and Culture in Santa Fe. But I just use it as a representation of Tewa Polychrome, which is the most abundant form on top of the Mesa. So it dates directly to this time period of 1690s during the reconquest. So I just use it as an example to illustrate its abundance there. Any other questions or comments? Moving to mention, I'd work with Mark Willis and he's a terrific, really imaginative guy with the drone and the machine. And also with tetraglyphs, with different kinds of illumination. They're pretty innovative folks who can map almost anything. Very nice to see pictures from the other side. Kundoa. We have another comment. A question here from Julia Franklin-Bach. Thank you so much for your talk, Dr. Aguilar. I was struck by your description of your place-based approach. Do you have any readings or other resources you would recommend on place-based approaches specifically for folks working on indigenous history? Sure. My discussions of my place-based approach are published in a volume. Looking at my bookshelf now, I think it's called The Death of Prehistory. I can send a link to the folks at Berkeley and they could maybe distribute it to the folks on the call here. But I go into a lengthy discussion about that approach. And so yeah, my work is out there in different places and we should have more time to talk about that approach. But I can definitely forward on some places where this stuff can be found. That would be awesome. Thank you, Dr. Aguilar. Of course. I can put these in the description on the video that we'll be sharing from this talk. Any other questions? Thanks very much, Dr. Aguilar. Very interesting talk. Yeah, thank you. It was my pleasure. Great. Thank you. Thank you, Woody. We'll talk soon. OK, guys. Appreciate it. Thank you for your time. Before we go, I wanted to mention that our round back next week is with the panel from the San Francisco State Global Museum. And it's on the subject of removing collector means for museum legacy collections. That should be a fascinating discussion. So please join us next week. Thanks again. Right.


Everybody forest here ripping 21 22 chronicles basketball hobby six bucks half case number 25 random team style You can always check out the results at latent sports cards calm Thanks for joining everybody and good luck It's not that strange isn't have a he doesn't have rookies and a lot of other products Plus he has autos in this too if we pull the cornerstones a couple weeks ago, so are they showing me a spectrum wireless commercial right now? I do not need to see a spectrum commercial right now Always be trying to give you to buy more stuff man Starting us off is a Phoenix rookie Jalen green for the Rockets and a rookie cornerstones blazers Key on Johnson nice hit sixty and ninety nine rookie quad jersey auto blazers Blazers gimme essentials for the Thunder and Evan Mowley marquee whose glass man is that? Anthony Davis bones Highland Crusade Hometown heroes Franz Wagner essentials bones Highland and a Yanis XR red numbered 82 of 149 nice, yes Davion Mitchell rookie Phoenix for the Kings Daeron sharp Nets a limited rookie patch auto 3 of 25 Quentin Grimes marquee XR Mowbly Thomas treasures Thunder rookie Trey man 65 of 149 Corey Kispert rookies and stars a blue rookie Blazers Brandon Williams from prism 81 and 99 crown a prism traded I think Cam Thomas Cam Thomas Duarte honors silver crusade Franz Wagner magic the brawn essentials marquee bones Highland Reeves rated Ricky sucks Ricky to 249 Thomas treasures magic home town heroes Scotty Barnes crusade Zaire Williams Just soon we marquee and XR Trey man Just soon move prestige Ricky bulls numbered 12 out of 49 Jersey number 12 out of 49 Jericho Sims you've got a Deerren Fox airborne gold auto Kings nice hit Old Deerren Fox Sacramento this one's going to Eddie L. Congrats Eddie four of ten Davion Mitchell marquee Kispert marquee Kispert Kispert Curry LeBron essentials red Lakers 70 of 249 De Montes a bonus optic traded Airborne auto for the Nuggets Monte Morris 52 of 149 Kade Cunningham essentials marquee John Marant Plates and patches Ricky's I Williams Grizzlies numbered 96 of 99 Shengun hometown heroes for the Rockets a Quentin Grimes red crusade Nick's 15 of 149 Marquee honest XR Yanis. I haven't really seen it much of the goods harder. It was I only checked it was like the It was a turn into the Fourth I think so got Cameron Thomas rookie 130 of 149 for the Nets Trey man got silver rookie Phoenix Jalen Suggs magic Central's Brandon Boston blue Robinson Earl rookie for the Thunder 3 of 99. I Also did zero prep before the draft. I didn't do anything until you're like you want to join this league And I was like sure the first time I looked at any rankings or anything was last night when it was my pick so I Pistons rookie Kade Cunningham gold standard night of 99 Kade to be a guy on my radar has Kade been picked yet. I'm sure Kade's been picked, right? Sunmu Yannis X Yannis Phoenix Marquee Kade XR Brandon Boston trying to think who would even be there? Maybe I've bam is surely getting taken, right? Last I saw he was still on the board. I was a little surprised that bam out of bio It's on the board into the fourth round By a little I mean very maybe Vusevich if he's there Vusevich is gonna be pretty consistent Finish really strong last year too. So I probably should try and grab a center or someone that's gonna have eligibility at center Trey Murphy the third. We've got a Quentin Grimes rookie patch auto from limited for the Nix 66 of 99 moody essentials Marquee Brandon Boston jr. Am I a robot? Why would you ask if I'm a robot? What indication is there that I'm a robot? I will say I'm a breaking machine if that's what you mean honors rookie giddy for the Thunder Kaminga Phoenix rookie warriors Kade XR and essentials red Chris Duarte 135 149 pieces Tokis definitely a bottle Guy gives off big big bot vibes Yannis crusade there rookie cornerstones blaners again trend in Watford this time 86 and 99 Ricky Quadros the auto Luca Wiggins Yeah, I probably stay away from Kyrie already have I'm not so stay away from him, but I Mean if Davis falls to me. I'm just gonna have to take Davis Roll the if I'm roll the dice on kawaii gotta roll the dice on Anthony Davis as well because they're both healthy I'm like the best team in the league What 35 149 rookie Brandon Boston jr. Clippers Kaminga hometown heroes crusade rookie Moses moody 19 and 149 there you go warriors I don't think I'd take Kyrie Because it's not even interested Kyrie He'll just be like, you know what I don't want to play for the next two weeks And he just won't play for the next two weeks. Yeah, like it's not even interested Kyrie Sometimes it is and sometimes he's just like, you know what I got to go to my friend's birthday party rather than play this NBA games and I Key on Johnson there silver crusade Scotty Barnes rookie for the rafters Franz Wagner marquee Lamello essentials Yeah, 40 40 to 545 sounds about right kid. There's a limited rookie gold thunder Jeremiah Robinson Earl 10 of 10 Davion Mitchell honors crusade Luca marquee Luca and LeBron XR a personal break Like yeah preseason if you want to miss it for like the birth like thereafter, that's fine He'll be like yeah, my child was born. I need two weeks off from the NBA Which I'm not shaming Piper rental leave. I'm just saying like that's just so Weird for an athlete to do that. It's just a different type of job, you know Kai Jones rookie luminance 9 of 99 for the Hornets crusade coming up purple coming up hometown heroes 35 49 Warriors Luca and Wiggins Got Phoenix rookie Josh Giddy for the thunder Austin Reeves the Lakers rookie Phoenix auto And a there you go, buddy 38 of 99 Alan O'Banton purple rookie marquee Cameron Thomas Nets 28 of 49 24 49 Yeah, right, and it's like a guaranteed contract. So it's like, okay. Come on. Come on Anyway, Shengyun rookie to 149 for the Hornets of the Hornets Rockets honors dealing sucks hometown heroes bucks rookie auto Sanjay mama Kalashvili 44 of 75 Essentials the mellow marquee tray man. We are not all sold out today Far from it Quentin Grimes Thomas treasures Ricky 201 to 249 nicks crusade mobly red Scotty Barnes Raptors Phoenix 11 of 149 that is sick Gotta love the color match Phoenix a big one to congrats Toronto Denny H. There you go Get that mag of course Suggs XR The biggest Kyrie defender, I know is illegal that's for sure Biggest Kyrie stand there is 78 of 149 rookie tray man for okc Steph Curry you've got silver hometown heroes tiger Williams grills these rookie Boston and a mobly XR 75th anniversary for the cabs 25 is 75 Good box plates and patches rookie to assume it for the bulls three of 99 Hometown heroes mobly those soon move Phoenix XR Kade and Essentials moody Too good Jalen Green hometown heroes you've got Jalen Green honors Duarte's I or Williams red Essentials Grizzlies rookie six of 149 Bam just got taken what makes the decision easier than right there he is. There's a illegals boy Kyrie There he is Cameron Thomas Clippers Jason Preston limited Ricky Jersey auto 35 out of 99 Quentin Grimes Kyrie Irving Luca Garza titanium pistons rookie eight of 55 Jalen Green Phoenix rookie XR Jalen Green mobly Duarte Phoenix rookie you've got a spurs artist Gilmore auto here Hall of Fame auto to 149 Scotty Barnes Essentials rookie for the Raptors Scotty Barnes marquee Name some Randy I'll take Popeye's over KFC. I'd probably take Bojangles over Popeye's, but there's just no Bojangles here What other places are there a Shengyu Thomas treasures rookie Rockets to 149 crusade red Franz Wagner magic number 39 of 149 Braun Trey young crusade Davion Mitchell crusade silver Austin Reeves Lakers Davion Mitchell and Jalen Suggs on the essentials. I'd take I'd take Popeye's of Republics Probably take Popeye's over Keynes, but I don't think there's one single raising Keynes in the state of Florida. I Don't know though. It depends tenders tenders and fried chicken are just different different to me There's different. I would take raising Keynes tenders over Popeye's tenders for sure, but You want like a chicken sandwich or like fried chicken that's different bulls to soon move blue Cameron Thomas hometown heroes Ricky for the Nets number 399 plus Popeye's you can get actual size or is raising Keynes. You just fries in the And slaw Keynes is great. I love Keynes used to go there all the time when I live near one crusade giddy. Yeah, there's not a Florida So you look another Austin Reeves Lakers Ricky Phoenix auto to 99. Yeah, Popeye's tenders are fine like they're okay Edward's got a giddy rookie blue from essentials a 64 of 99 nice color match but Popeye's Cajun red beans and rice. Good Lord. So good So good. Oh my god. Kessler Edwards 75th anniversary Nets absolute one of 75 It's the best like non fries fast food side that I think I've had Cameron Thomas there consistently Nick but to apprentice auto 97 and 99 for the Clippers Nick but to clipers Jalen sucks Ricky XR for the magic and a shengun essentials Yeah, all the so back was like 10 years ago now Randy all the bow jangles Central Florida were Owned by the same person. They close them all there's one in Sanford now though Thomas treasures 31 of 99 Ricky Aaron Wiggins for the Thunder. I love bow jangles though Bones Highland crusade rookie red for the Nuggets 136 of 149 Jalen green essentials Kaminga marquee Yeah, they just continued their mac and cheese for a bit too Kaminga chronicles one of 149 for the Warriors. I don't really get fast food mac and cheese though I I stay away from that all the time silver crusades rookies and stars Chris Duarte XR Moses moody and red Josh Christopher rookie for the Rockets marquee to 149 Trey Murphy the third 59 to 75 rookie for the helicans there from limited Yannis Phoenix Trey Mann Robinson Earl and Durant So recap guys the the thing about Popeyes though is it's one of the chains that's inconsistent So like if you get Popeyes, sometimes it's not good and sometimes it's like fantastic That's why people like Chick-fil-A so much as it tastes the exact same every single time That's the key with chains this consistency consistency is everything with a chain restaurant. You're not asking for amazing food, you know You just want it to be consistently good. That's what the It's what like culvers kind of like that. I think five guys is consistent. That's for like a chain All right, here's our autos. We had Clippers Nick Batum Lakers Austin Reeves spurs artist Gilmore Clippers Jason Preston Buck Sontra Mama Kalashvili Lakers Reeves again blazers trend in Watford Nick's Quentin Grimes Monte Morris Nuggets got the Nets RPA day run sharp rookie quadjures the auto key on Johnson Blazers Yeah, Evan Mobley the 75 rookie XR 75th anniversary calves Red Phoenix Scotty Barnes Raptors to 149 and gold airborne auto Kings Deer and Fox Or 10 that'll do it more chronicles coming up


Here's your fitness tip today. TV is making you fat. Mmm. What do you think about that? New news? Yeah, I don't know. The way you said it was kind of weird. No, seriously though, this has been, and it wasn't, it didn't happen until later, one of the single best pieces of advice that I gave clients that were trying to lose weight without putting them on diet restrictions, right?  Just simply saying, here's one rule I want you to live by for the next month and just see what happens is don't eat in front of the television or your phone. Like just, non-distracted eating. And it blew my mind how many people became so much more aware. It's very similar to the advice that before social media became so popular. So that the advice we used to give where I tell someone just to track, like just becoming aware. Yeah. Automatically makes you start to make better decisions because many times we're so unaware of what we're even doing. And I think today's time we're distracted more than we've ever been. So instead of giving a client these crazy restrictions and saying you can't do this, can't do that, or follow this meal plan, just saying, hey, let's first do this. Let's cut out some of these bad habits that don't allow you to be aware of your body's natural signals that are trying to tell you.  Yeah. I like to watch it when you read it. I know. Really, when they do studies on this, they find people reduce their calories by 10 to 15% just by not being distracted. Yeah. Just because they're, and what it is, yeah, it's definitely awareness, but really what's the way they explain it is you get signals from hormones that your body releases like ghrelin and, you know, as your stomach stretches, your brain will get signals. But if you're focused on something else, it doesn't register as quickly. And you end up eating, and some of them might think, oh, 10% more calories. What is that? Well, if you eat 400 calories, it's 40 more calories, and you add it up throughout the day. Yeah. And if you always- It's two, 300 calories a day.  And I'm guilty. By the way, I'm guilty of this. I think I'm driving their car. Advice like this, I think what ends up happening is, you know, I see it in my own behaviors. And I think, okay, I'm a fitness professional. I'm aware of these things. I slip up on this, so my clients have got to. Because they're not thinking about fitness like I'm thinking about it 24-7.  It's not their career. This probably happens a lot. Yeah. You want to know what's funny is now I'm thinking back, right? My oldest son was, he wasn't the best eater when he was a kid. And, you know, in my culture, like, that's a bad, that's not good, right? So you got to make sure he eats more.   So it was like, and I mean, looking back now, it's clear what was happening is we were, they were, he was being distracted so we could feed him.  What made me think about this and why this was on my mind was exactly that. I'm guilty of this. So I'm guilty of using the iPad to kind of distract Max to get him to like just sit still and eat. And it's, and I've used that as a tool so many times that so last night Katrina and I were like, oh, the house, we've got a lot of everything done. We're kind of relaxing. Well, we're all going to have dinner together.  And instead we're like, oh, let's have dinner as a family today. And obviously for having dinner as a family, there's no reason to have iPad on the table or anything like that. And so it disrupted that normal pattern that we do with him. And he wasn't having it.  You know what I'm saying? Look at, look at I just did is I've allowed us to make that a kind of a ritual for when he's eating so he could sit down there and watch his cartoons and eat his food. And anybody that's done that with their kid, they know that it's like nice because it gets them to settle down and sit still and they're not. Well, so food manufacturers, I don't know whether they did this on purpose or you know, maybe on accident. I don't know, but they started to, because remember TV didn't exist up until, well, widespread up until probably what the 60s and 70s. When do you think TV started becoming kind of commonplace in American homes? Would you say it's probably the 70s and 60s? When did you stop listening to the radio for your entertainment? You got to remember I grew up with no TV. Oh, that's right. So I'm the wrong person to ask. Yeah. But I mean, I think the TV first came out in the 50s, right? It did, but it really didn't become commonplace like 70s. When was it? Because like now the average home has like 2.3 or so. There's more televisions than children in homes, right? That's the average. Maybe you could have looked at it. I'm going to look this up because I don't know the answer. Yeah. But so what happened was TV became, it was this new thing, right?  And they started to design and create foods. TV dinners. TV dinners became a thing. You remember that, right? They don't really make those. Hungry man and all that kind of stuff. They don't really, go ahead, Doug. And the TV trays. Yeah, so it was only around 9% of Americans owned TVs in the 1950s. But by 1960, that figure had jumped to over 80%. There you go. And so, and then you started? You said by the 80s that we said? No, 1960s. 60s. Yeah, 1960. Yeah, very fast. And then today would be a neat stat to look up is what the average, how many TVs are in the average American home now? Like there's now it's not, it went from very rare for someone to have it to most 80% of Americans have it to now most people have multiple TVs. Okay, do you remember that famous part of Back to the Future? Yeah. When he goes back in time and he's in the 50s or late 50s and he goes, oh yeah, we have two TVs in the house and they're like, get out of here. Nobody's got two TVs. No one's that rich. No one's that rich, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the average is 2.5 TVs per household. Yes, that wild. And 31% have four or more. Yeah, so there's foods now that are created around that culture or have been for a long time. So snack foods were big. So think about this. Imagine if this was before TVs were invented, right? And so all meals were pretty much around a table with people. How many snack foods would be consumed if that was the case? You'd get up and leave.  I'm done eating. Let me get out of here. But if I'm watching this TV show, it's nice to snack on some or whatever. Was the microwave, did that come out like simultaneously with the television or was that like... 70s. TV did it a little bit later. Because I know that that had a major impact as well in terms of just being able to heat something up relatively quickly and then watch TV. I mean, obviously, we don't remember from experience, but have you guys seen ads? Like, I wonder what the ads look like, Doug, for... A microwave? Yeah, a microwave. I wonder how they pitched it. Nuclear technology or something. I bet they pitched it like supporting the mom. Of course. Yeah, supporting the mom in the house. So she doesn't have to spend, save hours and hours in the kitchen or whatever. So I looked this up a long time ago. There were whole cookbooks when the microwave came out. Around cooking about microwaves. So it was like this whole meal with the microwave and they taught you how to cook a steak in a microwave and obviously it's gross. You don't want to do that. I've had that before. You know that? You had a microwave. So my grandmother, remember when I moved to the Bay Area? Wait, you mean like a raw steak? Yes, potatoes. My grandmother only did the microwave. So what, and TV dinners, she had the little fold-out. So she's that generation that actually watched the evolution of... TV and set in the microwave. So when I moved in with her, she was, by the way, she lived by herself for many, many years. Like she had a very young age. She was divorced and then basically, and she was a two-job, swing shift, crazy work, save all her money, didn't spend anything on herself, lived in this little condo, two-bedroom apartment in San Jose. I moved over here when I originally thought I was going to finish my degree in kines, moved in with her basically just to like focus and buckle down on school. And this is how I fell into training. Well, she, I mean, I ate with her and so, and I didn't know this until I moved in with her and everything was microwaved.  Like, oh dude, it was so bad, bro, so bad.  She would do canned vegetables that had been in there for like months, pour it in a bowl, put it in the microwave, that was dinner. Oh yeah, yeah, bro, it was so bad. So you know what's funny? You can look at, you can find... Still like that. You can find...  It's pretty bad. Hey, if you enjoyed that clip, you can find the full episode here or you can find other clips over here. And be sure to subscribe.


So, welcome everybody and we hope to make this interesting thought provoking panel discussion and not only thought we actually expect that this will translate into some action enabling the digital India. So, I will start with a quick presentation and motivation for why standard and interoperability, the role that standard and interoperability should be playing in cloud computing. What I am presenting here has come out of discussions, deliberations within CCICI and so it represents ideas and thinking of several people and you see in the board are the members of the governing board and the executive committee are the ones on the left. So, you can see we have a good representation and the organization itself is much bigger than this including our members. So, I encourage you to look up the website and see what we are all about. But to talk about cloud you know the analogy that I want to take is internet. So, when I started my career way back in the 18s there was no internet and there was no email. So, what did you do? You went and signed up with one of these companies like America online or Compulsor or Prodigy or Indian the work net and it provided you the ability to network with your colleagues. So, as a group the department will go and sign up for a and before email there was actually just the bulletin board. You would post the message on the bulletin board and that would come to everybody and then they started email, but only within that group and it is only so that was the model and email was this killer and everything was proprietary. You could send mails to anybody other than on the group. Over time they started extending that service if two groups are signed with the same two departments are signed with the same service provider then they could start sending messages. So, that was an extension in the application. And then what happened you know Dharpanet was formed by defense to enable communication amongst the defense and then they said why can't we take what we have learned by developing Dharpanet to the rest of the world and that is when ITF was formed. Now ITF was a bunch of technologists who wanted to realize the potential of the technology by interconnecting the whole world and there wasn't a business interest which was driving that. So, business interest can inter-emergence of the potential of new technology and that is the point. It was a bunch of technologists that came together with this vision that this technology has the potential to connect everybody in the world and they developed the under ITF the whole you know the routes the exchanges the whole concepts that have driven besides DNS and TCP IP I mean there is a whole lot that has happened in the internet world which has enabled it. And that led to and the whole new world right a whole lot of service providers and a whole lot of applications and because this is open because of the standard. Now let's look at the world of cloud. So, we have all these equivalents of the America online and the computers today. You go to a cloud service provider and you get logged in right it's very difficult to interpret. There is no federation there is no inter-working. So, what is needed and this is a vision in ITB. So, these are these slides come from the working group of ITB which is actually called the inter-cloud working group. So, from internet they have taken the term inter-cloud and they are trying to develop standard and it's fairly mature now that standard is emerging. But it's for the rest of us to kind of embrace this and enable and it's not a business first it's a technology first mindset that is needed to realize the potential that cloud has. What is GICTF which has developed a bunch of use cases and I have tried to put them which make the comparing argument for what is the advantage of an interoperable cloud. Why do you need an interoperable cloud right. So, these are some of the cases and I put them into the Indian context. So, if you see supposing there is a state there is a data center X and it has two applications running in the data center income tax filing and for birth and death records and they have different patterns of usability right. So, come the peak time for income tax filing they run out of capacity there is over load. So, what they do is they take the birth and death records and transfer it transition it to some other data center somewhere temporarily and there and manage the load for income tax file that's a you know load balancing the scalability kind of application. So, how will you enable this when you have cloud what will be needed to be standardized what is the kind of protocol you need for interaction between the service providers because the service providers could be different vendors. So, what will enable them to operate and make this happen is what is detailed in the GICP of use case what needs to happen a priori what need will happen at the time of the overload right all of that and and it's a it's a kind of a one hour tutorial to work through all of these test cases and I won't do that I quickly say. So, the other one is mobility right. So, I just walk through the use cases at the high level and not go through the details. So, mobility so you travel abroad and your health records are lying in some with some service providers what will enable them to make it available if you fall sick and your hospital needs it with reasonable access time because if the access time is very bad your x-ray you will never be able the system in this time will never be able to see the video because you know they are heavy. So, this is the basic mobility case and that requires a lot of you know standards to be put in place and protocols to be put in place similarly guaranteed availability if a disaster strikes the data center you know disaster recovery you all know what is disaster recovery right. So, the disaster strikes but you have you have been replicating your data in other places and you can immediately switch to that right in other data centers and this is again the description on what it takes then similarly integrated integration of applications right enhanced convenience by service cooperation So, Aadhaar wants to the passport guys want to use Aadhaar the job application guys want to use Aadhaar the loan application the bank right they all want to you want to go to Aadhaar. So, how do you enable that oh in a in a cloud environment that is another application and then service continuity. So, you signed up with a service provider and that and suspended business for whatever reason right then what do you do how do you switch seamlessly from one service provider to another without any factory of business right. So, this is an example of that and then finally, there is a broker application service providers may be providing services at different price points different SLAs and a broker will be dynamically and use could vary in time. So, giving you the best deal as per your need right. So, that you can seamlessly switch between service providers from a user perspective it makes a lot of sense. So, that is the other use case and so globally what is happening is there are a lot of players in the standard landscape. So, it is a complicated landscape right and different countries and different open forums are trying to develop standards for different things. So, in a from a digital India context how do we deal with this how do we recommend what is right the other thing that is happening in the world is open source. So, open stack is a representative in cloud they are building an open stack. Now, that is another way of defining a de facto standard. So, the open stack API is the de facto standardized API you know. So, that is another aspect to that and within IEEE while they are doing these standards P2301 and P2302 they are also setting up an interoperability test which is spanning across universities and different labs, different government agencies across different parts of the world. So, I kind of leave it at that and then these are the questions we are going to now throw at the panelists. One is the role of cloud computing in enabling digital India what are the challenges in cloud adoption that we see today. So, we will go on to the first question. How cloud can enable this so, the government has asked an initiative by the digital locker which allows you to or should allow you to store all your documents on it so that when you know you want something you don't have to go around searching for things doing your certificate and so on so forth. An example of how this works is if anybody has run my GSM as they have the other that which is a very advanced piece of technology which we have so then you can just go ahead and get your phone number in five minutes instead of going to a lot of laboratories, verification and so on. I think the major thing that cloud computing does is speeds and processes that makes them a lot more efficient and in the case of digital India this would help. Another thing of course is that we are a very large country and cloud has a lot of scalability and so the cloud computing would definitely help in scaling up much faster because for example think like directly we think transfers to other parts so those kind of things would not be possible without cloud computing. So another challenge is I think I would like to work from an academic perspective since I am a university and one of the major problems I foresee is availability of trained personnel so the academic aspect is a challenge because cloud computing as I said the application of cloud computing is pretty much limitless and you can spend hours talking about what are the possible things and you need a corresponding large number of people who are still in cloud computing cloud applications knowing how the academic cloud efficiency is also good and so that is definitely a challenge for the cloud computing. We share an industry perspective so role of cloud computing according to the table here is to on the digital side embrace the change. The change is very important in the current advancements to the world which are very important. So in the digital here there are different stakeholders which are one is citizen with a real beneficiary we need to understand what citizen today means and also apart from the citizen perspective you also need to understand the culture and the which he operates. This is true in the digital in the change and citizens of India today really look for the profit and convenience of driving things and culture of today is trying to say that go digitize, make the things simpler, make the things simpler in providing the things that people are really looking for. So in order to converge all these things together it's about the cloud is trying to play a catalyst to embrace this particular change and try to connect all the systems coming together to drive, connect and communicate. So this is very important as we try to see and definitely any kind of a change is possible and you really bring it out of and that's where the digital India issue, it is not the way of the prime minister. It's trying to trigger the thought and trying to allow all the operators, all the enterprises to come forward and raise their goal in this entire position. It's not one particular sort of industry to work with but this change to happen it's all in this way to come together to bring that change. Now one of the challenges I see in the cloud adoption is about why these things are happening in a very much an isolation, all these changes need to have a convergence point and that's where we need to see how this convergence can be happening. Unless this convergence happens the change cannot provide the right level of what we want to see. So convergence is one of the areas that we need to really connect to and that's where our second push in that direction. My perspective and I'm going to give it in terms of how I personally see. I see cloud computing and digital India are two parts of new economic creation of what we are all heading to works. So I think we see it as that opportunity. It's tremendous. What does digital mean? Digital means consumerization. It means that power at the end of consumer either for public services or for commercial enterprises or in any way. So if you're really looking at truly digital companies but unfortunately the room should be able to drive the process where it's a public service or a private services but really want and enable that. And the cloud is an underlying infrastructure to drive that transformation. So the most important part in the digital is a huge new opportunity for all the developing nations including India in terms of empowerment for the people in creating businesses and driving. So if communications and we are seeing it as that opportunity to innovate a new economic model I think that's what I could see as the opportunity of future. What about what you can see for a gift definitely from that standpoint. What are the challenges in that? I think the challenges really comes that if you look at as I'm going to talk about the story of Internet now if you look at the timelines of that story 1965 or 69 was the internet and 1985 was the actual internet existence coming in and then from that 85 to 95 a worldwide bad, all that stuff happened and then from 1995 to 2000 you saw a different world now if you look at this acceleration these are the economic evolution with that change. We're exactly in the same way from a cloud standpoint and digital standpoint. We are now somewhere in 90s of that time frame 85 to 95 we are sitting with the cloud and digital in that time frame. The acceleration that took 10 years and the world by surprise is awaiting to happen with these two pieces across the world and we probably have not a slight list of the view of what the economic potential of this model is and I think it's huge and it is governments, it's industry it is academia which everybody is sitting here is the role to make and capitalize this opportunity to create a different dimension. What are the challenges therefore to define this opportunity I think it is about maybe adoption, simple everything and you talk about the change as Mala said, why does the change happen why all of us are so hooked on to WhatsApp and phone all the time. It's just easy for you to take it and do what you want does this change make all of us to plug in play and just you know as you talk about 60 use cases does it help us to move and change and do our work in a much simpler way when we come to this. It's the single most challenge I see and that requires a lot of work which is the second part of the question of the business personal view is I think if you treat it as an economic opportunity model market will drive with the digital and cloud to gather a very big different world coming forward so I think that's why we really end then saying how I've seen as an opportunity and how we simplify it further creates opportunity for all the people sitting here and across the ecosystem. I will be very very honest about it my respect is not much different from what you have just said I said this yesterday also when I look at digital India there is a tagline which says power to empower which is basically empowering the citizens and the businesses with two things I would say. One is with information and the services that they would like to see when they have this kind of information as an example we have other which is we know how it is, what is helping the other one is digital doctors who talk about it and that helps us in terms of so much information both in the cloud but I think this is good and definitely going to give a lot of opportunities that has been thought about. Now when it comes to the challenge I can't agree more than what you just said in terms of standards and simplification yes there are so many other benefits that power to empower how do we really make this really happen how we can promote it how we can really showcase that it is really going to be useful for the individuals as well as for the organization to really adopt the power to empower and that is the key challenge that we have second thing is because of simplicity because it is a very good collaboration of strong of these services that comes in how do we really consolidate it you will start getting the benefits of cloud gets lost if you have so many of these services that are going to optimize the efficiency first of all so you have to make sure that how do you really control that I think it is another challenge that we will force it I think when you are speaking the last thing other panelists have already covered the topics that I have to share but importantly I just want to ask a question to the audience where do you think the next big idea is going to come which showcases I believe this could be from some garage here in Bangalore because that is the power of cloud that has given the developers the right to experiment with the latest and the greatest technology thanks to the APIs, thanks to cloud they can be sitting in a garage here in Bangalore and building the next big idea that is exactly what is going to do for visitor India as well so the benefits of course like the way as you go model you can scale it up at your will it is going to be always there with cloud but of course of the challenges we had also talked about yesterday the top one in the list was putting the politics aside the security was the top concern and once you become a mature cloud user just remember that the cloud is not stationary that is also moving at a high pace it is very dynamic there are lot of technologies and stuff moving along with it so soon you will see that you know VMs are things of the past it is going to be containers and Kubernetes, MSOIs and Ranchers you name it there are lot of things that are coming in the next horizon so we as architects, we as readers have to think of what could be the bottlenecks down the line can a customer or can a visitor India have the flexibility to move from one cloud to the other so that is where this topic is very relevant I think in terms of can it be interoperable is it flexible enough to give you that cost benefit because cost and the numbers so we have to keep the cost minimal the person I talked about this and Dr. Sathira also talked about this like give the latest and the greatest at the lowest cost point and you have to scale it for millions and billions that is a unique thing that you will get only in this country and that is the answer so now that we have concluded that the only way digital India can happen is if we embrace cloud and its implementation and interestingly we are on the job the other ministry of electronics and IT embedded 11 cloud service providers for users in the government one day there are a bouquet board with my cloud so the old model of a managed services model they have embedded 11 service providers and when we left it open to all government agencies to go with same thing like the number of the 5 of them all simultaneously to jump the technology ads which can enable it in accelerating cloud that is the second part of the discussion and you want to start from that direction I will stick to the earlier points that I mentioned so standard supply across all the periods you start with consuming just the infrastructure or consuming some fast services consuming at the business level or you are just taking an entire business process as a service it has to be a standard where I can say this cloud vendor is giving me better value for money than that vendor so you have to have a standard way to compare others to others that is where a lot of the things that I believe the standards will apply at the top layer at the bottom layer we already have enough of standards it would be like bringing together them especially for example in the case of security we have a good set of standards that are available but there will be few that we might have to look at customers need their visibility I as an enterprise is responsible for showing the audit and regulatory reports to my evaluator so how can I get the right set of data from the cloud provider so that I can build my audit reports so I don't want to change the audit reports when I go from Amazon version or the other way around so these set of standards we have to divide so that there are no additional investments to moving to cloud you know trying to answer your questions if it would be good if you can write down your questions on a piece of paper they will be collected and sent here and then you can address them that will help us save some time here so thank you very much please send down your questions on papers and hold up the sheet and we will come and collect them the way I look at the standards and the probability I look at the probability is one of the kind of outcome that we can have from the standards so from that perspective there are a lot of standards obviously when I talk about the list of standards that are already placed a lot of work that is already happening in terms of exaggerating the adoption itself I see that the key thing is that standards bring in its simplicity and then it brings up quick adoption because it is open and it is described and it is very well known so I find a service provider I can go and take the standard and I can make use of it then that is one other outcome that I have also placed in is if I am following the standard obviously I know that it is going to be a problem so I think these standards play a very key role in defining what should be the way that cloud services one is actually service that you are providing the other one is information so these two if you are handling it carefully and that is where the standards are defined it becomes easier for adoption now role each one of us play I think there is definitely contributing on our knowledge based on the industry bringing it across on to the standard body particularly participating in some of those standards and either the government nominated agencies or with the government itself participating in defining some of the standards that is where I think we can bring the value in defining some of the standards sorry you know and I will just make sure that the kind of standard and people in general think about it and we talk about standardization to lose differentiation I think it is not at all there so if you have to look at the adoption as a manager we were discussing a while ago India and also the developing countries gives a new green key because you can really look at an opportunity very differently from the other markets which have a defined way of working in business models while in the emerging markets you have a different kind of situation business and models and technology to be adopted differently in India the telecom has mentioned about that being adopted very differently and price models of calls are dropping down 40 paisa 30 paisa, 6 paisa per SMS you know it was never heard of it was never heard of in terms of any part of the world if you would look at all of that has happened because the standards in the telecom way defines a common little program to adjust to what the ecosystem of market will be and I think it does not take a very different situation so the fear that should I not look at standard and interoperability with that focus from a service provider is very critical that that enables the market to become much larger and I am going back to my first point that if the service providers of the start side are able to see that that actually creates a much larger model of the market for their consumption of the infrastructure that they are actually pumping in for the cloud it itself will create the standard and interoperability and the markets of the emerging market or India or digital and what is happening across the world or even the micro security issues economic issues of the world that creates enough opportunity for consumption if this common minimum standards are involved if we are really able to work across the boundaries of countries boundaries of the state of the service provider I think that's where standard has to play it's actually money for everybody it's money for the innovators entrepreneurs it's money for the service provider it's money for the governments because we can make the ecosystem involve to give you more economic value and standards will help in that it's not a constraint I see that that is where the acceleration of cloud adoption should be and the example that she put it into one use case you have a lot of ID cards in India now if you want tomorrow to use a particular scheme in India and couldn't be digital and combined with a different model to start up a very different ecosystem on a company and we said in our garage and can they work in a way that you would see different kind of service providers somebody who is really fit really in AWS snapping using the radio somebody using IBM cloud and could have multiple service providers you as a consumer we need all of them to deliver the end goal now if you look at that as a marketer opportunity of consumption all the service providers give the common minimum program as I call it for standards if they exist in coming to play in after coming opportunity evolves and that everybody makes money so I see standards in a very much as an acceleration of the business opportunity that digital and cloud providing across the globe if there is a people member sitting here see it as an opportunity there is enough to go after and make money for everybody on to the tables what are the role each one of us should play I would only from a standpoint that might be role from I just move from input to Indians for science and Indian society of innovation for development you know a growth industry and academia so I see that because it's a common minimum program and standard you really need multiple growth industry you know the service provider the consumers to come together and invest in real I'll be creation of that which is at a lower cost and I'm very personally helping on the table with all class members sitting here to bring such ecosystems to support the initiative because I see there is a larger economic opportunity but it's heading towards a different job crisis model in our overall situation but I think this is an opportunity which we cannot leave on table because it provides all of us a great opportunity to capitalise and I think it's a great role we will have our roles to play but I understand mine and industry and academia then there is also there reflecting the same thing that's what I'm talking about so just want to switch in context think about a standard when you think about a standard what comes to your mind what is the minimum thing which comes to you any voices why is this at security you don't take away the charger what you use you don't use that it's a number of manufacturers are there but they follow that particular standard like there are many standards standards has not come on the table it gets devolved over the specific guidelines translated into the best practices the fluent results which get matured and emergence of multiple companies coming together to authorise that to a structured model standards definitely play a role in all this of the cloud what we are trying to talk about if you try to compute you try to create the storage which is the three important elements there are specific standards which are given out there are different cloud providers FMLS say 11th and cloud providers are 35 I will think of the initiatives from the future what does that mean if you really look into the compute powers compute virtual machines which are described in the different cloud providers they follow the different T-shaped sizes and if you are asking about the storage peers they follow different pricing structures if you are trying to ask about the networking they have a different pricing structure and different sizes under which they operate now there is an need for us to take this particular standardisation across this cloud that will help us to make things more impactful and help citizens or help innovators to try to fix much better so when I think about the standards we try to apply to architecture standards then we develop a positive mode so that people can have a better chance it's not only the side of the thing we need to look at but also the clean standards also we try to do that yesterday I was trying to socialise and the team here who are trying to enter this conference I could see some kind of significant doubts in their mind about the cloud networking or the vendor networking what we talked about interoperability these are the four terms which came to me as an attention and they are often getting confused about these particular terms sometimes people feel that the locking is an interoperability issue but not when you try to talk about the locking from the customer perspective it's all about operating high cost so that's why the question is there with the people that you don't want to get into a situation where you have to move from one cloud and it's involving high cost second thing is what interoperability what does that mean it's all about two different clouds talking to each other if you are able to have your applications talking to each other which are operating in the different clouds you are able to successfully say that I am moving from one cloud if you are trying to talk about projectivity which you need to move from one cloud and federation is all about bringing different applications operating in the cloud form a meaningful solution so it's very important that you all consider these basic terms and try to apply to that particular context the standards and interoperability is definitely a challenge today that needs to be taken care and it's only possible when the different industry standard bodies who are trying to define these standards can converge again and they told there is one of the important challenge when the standard bodies can converge and define a uniform standard and release it and then people start following it and start seeing the different results things can go massive and we will be able to operate in a very simple terms second thing about the role of each one I just want to ask a few questions here people how many of you are members of the open group people are pending I believe members of the open group who are working in some part of the open group and continuing please raise your hands I see a few hands how many of you are members of the CSI I see a few hands and how many of you are members of the cloud committee innovation council of India how many of you are members of IIT I see a few hands so what does this bodies are trying to do they are trying to help and contribute to this particular standards and help in certifying this so why it was you take a pledge associate with one of the model and try to work in the particular open groups and make your impact make your experience counter actually we can play with your roles develop in the standards rather than expecting someone else to define you and contribute to the stage that's a specific thing I want to mention here thanks I think a lot of interesting points I will give so let me just my perspective on it and I think the need for standards is easy to understand I can just take the example of cars so all cars are roughly the same except for the user some of them may have a different shape steering wheel or different colors or you know different gauges but luckily they are all the same as you can already use them and I think that clearly highlights the need for standards if we have standards then that makes it simpler for us to use the cloud if it activates an option of the cloud because you know developers can leverage the knowledge they have if they write for one cloud they can do another cloud so as I have to point out standards I don't think it's clear the standards benefit consumers because it introduces some sort of competition so it can easily switch from one cloud to another but I think it also benefits the cloud vendors because it has been pointed out the user standards will increase the market for cloud applications because people develop applications faster and you know they can deploy applications multiple clouds and so on so actually cloud standards also benefit the vendors because it will expand the size of the market then in terms of interoperability I think camera has a very wonderful slide on you know the internet I think somebody another had pointed out that we are in the 1985 to 1990 cloud is concerned 1990 people have the vision that let's link all the networks together and then around the 2000s and so on we saw the internet worldwide and also applications coming out so similarly if we you know link together multiple clouds develop infrastructure definitely we can see today and a simple example of this is say for example today for the passport verification if you apply for passport it will be very high government departments these can be made much more efficient if you do have interoperability of cloud in terms of what each one of us can do I think everyone of us should participate in these efforts as have been said this is the early days of cloud it's not a mature technology all have a transformative difference and here there are many efforts going on in CCSA itself we have efforts going on with standards of interoperability and I have solicited your participation in that of all the participants we are distinctly welcome we can have participants from our perspective from academia from a wider innovation and so on from vendor perspectives or from customer perspectives we welcome all participants if anybody is interested please see me now so so looks like you know by the response the questions that we got we are very convinced about the story we are repeating here the picture we are repeating here about the importance of cloud for digital India and the importance of standards and interoperability to enable cloud especially in a leapfrog situation like ours and other emerging economies which are here partner activities so I go to these questions one by one and see how many of these we can address so I think first and foremost I think Anurag you should take this the adoption of cloud diminish the IT departments coming from the the provider this is an interesting click as I said yes that's the people think that there is a job opportunity and there is a crisis of job opportunity which is unfolding given that you have AI IOT, cloud and everything lots of technologies are coming around so there is that inherent insecurity about that fact however I don't think the IT departments will ever go away what will happen is that they will become the integration at the side of see today you have a within IT department as a network being a different group which is about structure and then you have an application group what the cloud does is in terms of the shift is to bring all of this together but together into a service model now the CIO's department or IT department function is about shifting to look at managing this differently so I think this is an opportunity for the CIO department to become the integration of the service model rather than looking at okay that my advertisement is going to go I think that's what it will become I don't think it is diminishing the IT department it will make sure that the throughput of the same team which is existing is multiplied by at least 3 to 4 I think that's all of you have budget cuts none of your CIO's are going to be increasing the IT budget for IT department given the macroeconomics industry and world at this point of time so your size is always under consideration how many people are there in the IT department now if the same team is doing 5 times the throughput with a higher quality I think that opportunities will be enormous so I personally don't see this as diminishing the case of it but it's an opportunity to shift but that has one point in your own competency in that department and I think that most of us are from forums and we are part of the CTII myself phase and I am looking without any world group there I think that is looking at the interoperability we are pretty much there to make sure that we are able to really ensure that in the country and our job is to make sure that we prepare for the future opportunities there is a couple of things one is I think the role of IT is certainly going to be changing that I think you mentioned it's going more from an IT from an operations point of view to an IT governance level because when you are looking at cloud computing you will have certain SLS that have been set certain services that you will be looking at as was indicating brokering at the same time you have to really govern that and make sure that the services that have been provided by the clouds adhere to one service level that has been currently and defining what you want as an IT strategy because you are the IT department is the key thing for the business so the business will talk to you not directly to the cloud provider you form the interface you form the strategy you form the governance layer you take care of the financial management of running the IT itself so next question I would say what is the impact of cloud on national security I think a couple of things to take care of again with cloud like I said in the previous session the attack service is based but again we have to look at the data sovereignty part the data integrity part where data resides these are some of the primary concerns of cloud and security when it comes to the nation level given that most of the cloud providers have already indicated there are 11 empaneled cloud service providers empaneled in the sense they are already tick marked to run cloud and workloads on that cloud whether it is serious this empowerment has several set of criteria which also has contributed in terms of checking out what are the controls that you have controls at all the levels and what are the standards that you need so that's where the standard really comes into the picture so if I have to evaluate one mentor or another mentor do you comply with the standard and that takes care of multiple concerns that I should be worried about so I think I believe that you are in safe hands with some of the contributions coming from the team itself contributing back to improve our national security can I ask you guys one question on this Pamela I can take two minutes on this question let's just test I think we can't go over all the questions they are amazing questions I would only say that if we think in the current rate none of you would be in your mind thinking that you can knock your front door in the house your house is secure do you think that's a good enough security for your houses so I think the issue of national security is not about this is my perspective from a technologist standpoint when entering into a paradigm when you are talking about real time prevention of the model and how does these standards will make sure that you are active proactive all the time is the answer for national security enterprise security it is not about having lots of new locks to be defined as these standards but it is to make sure that you are providing those locks however you keep the elements up for a real time visibility and tracking and historical trending I think you are involved in that model that's a real answer in my perspective but that creates a lot of opportunity again I see it all as a great opportunity so before we question that I have handed over here I want to bring up one question now I don't know if Pallab wrote this but I think Pallab should answer this even that we are an open group here the question is how important is enterprise architecture to successful cloud adoption yeah I think what happens is the adoption of cloud has a lot of impact on the way the IT department is designed within the organization in fact many times people ask me that if I am putting almost everything on the cloud do I even need a technology architecture for instance because the vendor is taking care of that but the whole idea here is to understand what are the business priorities and therefore figure out what you want to put on the cloud because eventually no organization is going to put everything lock stock and barrel on the cloud it's going to be a hybrid between on-prem and cloud based on certain business priorities and maybe certain data so it does have a huge impact on the way the roles are defined the structure the roles and responsibilities the accountability and this is all written by the the business and the security priorities