October 15th Common Council meeting will the clerk read the order today. I'd be happy to. You cannot live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you. Can we call the roll please? You're here. 15 present. There's a quorum president Alderman Van Ackerman is excused. Will Alderman verse he please lead us in the I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Approval of the minutes Alderman Hammack. Thank you Mr. Mary move to approve the minutes of the previous council meeting. Second. Been moving seconded to approve the minutes of the previous council meeting. Is there any changes or discussion? Are you none to call the roll? 15 ayes. Motion carried. Mayor's appointments. I hereby submit the following appointment for your consideration. Amy Horst to be considered for appointment to the redevelopment authority to fill the unexpired term of Mark Miller whose term expires for twenty eight twenty fourteen signed by the mayor. That will lie over. Tonight we have a presentation from Ed Huck of one thousand friends of Wisconsin. If you'd like to come up. Thank you Mr. Mayor. Members of the council ten years ago when I was executive director of the Wisconsin Alliance of Cities in conjunction with the county's association the League of Wisconsin municipalities and the Alliance of Cities a thousand friends we created this fair share coalition because we could see that there was something happening with local reimbursements to local government for road assistance over at five years at that time from ninety seven till two thousand two. We made a mistake ten years ago ten years ago we did not come to the councils we did not talk to the councils about what was going on and consequently when your legislators talk to you folks talk to the mayor they didn't really know all of that what was going on and things continued the way that they have been continuing for the last for ten years thereafter. So what I'm doing now as I'm traveling around the state I'm stopping at a whole lot of council meetings talking about this particular issue because it's gotten to be quite a serious situation. So we are we call ourselves the fair share coalition as before and I hope I push the right button because if things continue we see some bad roads ahead if excuse the pun. So user fees for user fees like gas tax and registration fees most people think that that's what pays for state roads state highways and local roads but as you folks know here that that's a myth that's that's not what happens what happens around on average with municipalities eighty percent of the cost of maintaining and policing local roads in the state are paid for either by property taxes or by fees or by transfers in the state like shared revenues. The fact is there's a crisis on the horizon if it isn't already here as it relates to local roads and the situation is that that most of the revenues are currently going to state and federal highways which means that there's stress at the local level but more importantly is that we're we're actually collecting less money at the state. There's a commission that's been put together by Governor Walker headed up by Secretary Gottlieb to look at the gap between highway or maintenance local roads that needs the just on the maintenance end of it they project a balance it's going to cost another five billion dollars more in revenues just to maintain the highway lane miles that we have they don't have that money in addition if they take all the needs local state bridges all of that they're looking at a gap somewhere between four and fifteen billion dollars so there's a very serious financial situation well needs however a relative thing but the reason for this is we're driving less for one in the last five years vehicle miles traveled as actually declined in Wisconsin twice and we're driving more efficient cars or at least we will be at some point my cars are my cars 10 and 15 years old but when the dog dies I'm going to get a new car and it will be more efficient than the two that I currently have and so will it be through Wisconsin so the combination of those two the projections from the committee are looking at flat revenues over the next ten years so no new revenue growth in the fund compared to the needs that will be adding up over that time so that means less in the transportation fund more spending on highways you can start to see where this thing is heading so two things first is the first of the middle line the lower one is what's happened with road aids as a percent of the budget 15 years ago 40% of the fund went back to local government in some way shape or form today that's 30% and at the same time in terms of highways when you can add in debt service 61% of the revenues are going for highways what's worse than that is debt $781 million have been committed in the next budget for debt service this is borrowed money to expand highways that's already spent and this the debt service is $781 million for the two-year cycle that's a significant amount that's 12% of the entire revenues by the state are going for debt service so the stats should say that local governments can get 85% of their costs from user fees paid for at the local level so what happened in 2010 towns got 37% of their costs counties got 20% of their costs and cities and villages got 17% of their costs 15 years ago you were at around 25% of your cost being paid for you can see the decline in what has been going on it's a combination of your costs going up and the revenues not keeping pace with those costs so the shortfall continues 90% of all roads in Wisconsin are local roads 90% 30% of the revenues highways are 10% of the roads including debt service 62% of the revenues and this can be even with the cuts that came down in the last budget highway spending went up $400 million where everything else was cut everything else was cut so one of the questions is should we allocate the money based on vehicle miles traveled which is it's a valid discussion well right now 60% are driven on highways I think one of the interesting things I found out in doing my research less than 18% of vehicle miles traveled in Wisconsin are on interstates less than 18% that's a that's a kind of a startling figure 40% vehicle miles traveled are on local roads but we're getting 30% of the funds and by the way that 30% of the funds includes transit aid connecting highway aids as well so in terms of just general aids it's even less than the 30% so while highway spending is going down or highway driving is going down and more driving is happening at local roads the combination of more spending on highways and less on local roads is quite puzzling in fact Wisconsin is 11th in the nation in terms of dedicating money to new highway capacity even though our population growth is figured to grow at half of the national average kind of an interesting scenario so what's going on what happened in the last budget shared revenues were cut 7% general transportation aid 6% transit operating 10% recycling the aids down 40% your taxable property has either been stagnant in terms of value or declining which puts pressure on rates and we all know how folks feel about their property tax rates so the levy limits were made perfect permanent and so that the question is what are the options for local government the average expenditures for local roads support in municipalities around Wisconsin is about 20% of your budget so this is no small matter this isn't something that you can just brush it with stormwater police and just the deterioration of your local roads somewhere around 43% of local roads are less in less than good condition on average in Wisconsin so now we're not going to return to these old days although there's a couple of roads up in Ashland that they the mayor tells me could look that way but this is a serious situation in this sense local roads need to be safe in terms in the cities they need to be safe in rural areas and this is not what you want in terms of economic development of that every spring the shabuigan press does a story on potholes I'll put I'll put my money on it in fact there are newspapers that always show me the potholes that we've got in their cities it's it's the fact is that any truck I mean we need good I'm not saying that we don't but every truck that that travels on a highway leaves that highway and it finds some type of a collector or arterial to deliver their goods within a city or a village or a town because the economy doesn't happen on the highway the economy happens in mostly in the cities but it also in the rural areas I mean that what's going on in some of the counties the frack stands on the western part of the state what that's doing to county highways is just obliterating them bridges are under tremendous stress in the rural areas because of the lax the lumber coming down and other large bulk materials that are being shipped or coming into the Green Bay Harbor or coming into the Milwaukee Harbor a lot of bulk goods coming in and then coming over those roads so the reality of it is we need balance and we currently do not have balance we have for 15 years focused on highway expansion and lane mile expansion for highways that has been the focus other states are looking at what the federal government is likely to do Wisconsin projects as much as a billion dollars less in federal revenue coming into the state in addition to the fact that state revenues are flat so if the highway spending continues and revenues remain flat or declining there's only one target and it happens to be local government and the impact on you folks could be quite significant and quite severe because the fact of the matter is what that would mean is you'd wind up borrowing in order to get around the levy limits you wind up borrowing you wind up going the debt route and frankly that's not sustainable that is that is not sustainable so what's going on the two big highway projects there's there's four billion dollars committed to those projects already that that money is committed and that's for the I-39 between Illinois and in Jane'sville and I-94 between the Illinois line and north of Kenosha they're getting 60 percent of the revenues currently we're getting one third and that's where the name comes the fair share coalition what we're considering because our legislative efforts have not been successful is a constitutional amendment now this may sound radical but it really isn't ratios are not uncommon in state constitutions the state of Illinois has a ratio between personal income tax and corporate income tax as an example so what we're suggesting is that half of state revenues that come from the people that drive it from the cities the towns counties villages come back to local governments and so what I'm here tonight is to ask the council to consider passing a resolution in support of a constitutional amendment minimally the League of Municipalities has a position coming up this month that asks for 24 percent of the costs of local governments to be sent back from the state which is a pretty significant increase in itself so between the League of Municipalities or what we're advocating for what we are saying is that it is critical for local governments to find some balance so that you folks can deal with your local roads through user fees not from property taxes not from borrowing not from new fees which is pretty much what the legislature has left you good folks with or something of this nature so the politics of the last 15 years has been to take the what would appear anyway is that as debt has been going up local aids have been going down that that seems to be the scenario that is occurring and the state is looking at shortfalls and if they continue their spending habits on new lane miles that means more debt and more pressure for local aids so this is a serious situation this is no small matter and it's come to a peak so the question what we're asking other states like Pennsylvania that are looking at every highway project that they had on the books that they thought they needed and they scrubbed five billion dollars in projects they said that were not critical to the economy of the state and so this commission that the governor has is looking at revenues it's looking at only one side of the equation there is an assumption that everything else is okay and the fact of the matter is everything else is not okay because eat I don't know how many people here would support a significant increase in the gas tax or some new fee or a huge jump in the registration fee I don't see the state legislature doing that so if they don't do that what are they going to do and what we're suggesting is they invest in what they have they make sure that what they have works and that would mean that local governments would have to see a significant increase in their in their aid so I'm here to ask you to take some action I've left with your city clerk some copies of a potential resolution as well as copies of the resolution that was passed by Ashland and by West Alice as an example of what those two cities have done so I could answer some questions if the mayor would wish me to do that or council all right thank you I thank you for your time thank you city clerk the public forum first this evening we have Frank Cosin okay and Frank I need your home address please you may go and I will get you going go ahead you'll have five minutes I'm assisted by my wife Mary Cosin and this originated as an inquiry regarding school issues I realized school district employees who contribute to the retirement fund are no different than municipal employees that contribute to the retirement fund so that's why I'm presenting it here and I'd like to begin how that teachers contribute half to the retirement system your school district municipality has higher payroll costs and your tax bill goes up thanks that time that's right when teachers municipal employees pay nothing the school district municipality has lower payroll costs and your tax bill goes down this is not smoke and mirrors an example and those trade of salary of 10,000 not realistic but makes the math easy so security is really 6.2 here around it is 6% Medicare is really 1.45 rounded to 2% retirement fund contributions are 5.9 percent here on 6% and zilch is what currently the district or municipality pays towards the teachers prior return when you add this up it's $11,400 that's here next year let's say there's a 3% increase account for inflation now from 10,000 to go to 10 to 300 every category increases this is still zilch there's still not paying teachers or municipal workers part it's not 11,074 to 42 but what happens if the union whether teachers union is working again accepts no raise in exchange for something else what is that something else no raise that $300 that was the 3% increase is over here now the district or municipality pays the $340 of total and when you add these things up because look this is still 10,000 this has not risen this has not risen this has not risen the sum total is 11,700 11,700 is less than 11,742 and the district municipality saves money this is not smoke and mirrors folks look at those figures again 11,742 district municipality forbidden by act 10 to pay that share 11,700 the district municipalities permitted $42 per savings per 10,000 per teacher let's see what happens in the real salary in the midsize district real estate salary 40,000 average super 10th custodian $42 per thousand times 4 because that's how you get to 40,000 168 savings per teachers 168 savings per teachers times 700 teachers about your point in size drum roll please 117,600 the first year savings to miss that savings for the district municipality and lower tax flow for you in just the first year and there's more savings each every year savings that increase does the impact on the next last page over 12 years on the sides district 700 points 40,000 average here only 1.5% increase not 3% cumulative savings over 12 years 2,891,501 dollars through the state we could say there's 70,000 as 100 times 700 teachers or employees that comes at 289,150,100 dollars act 10 is not a tool for saving districts or municipalities money and as of 1231 11 is required by report of the 2011 act 32 active participants teachers municipal workers judges protected services are 260,711 that is nearly 70,372 times 700 and 200 200,891,501 times 372 equals 1,075,638,372 that's over 12 years averaging nearly 90 million per year you say that's a stunning number how can it be well folks if you can save 28 dollars per month per person that's a 36 dollars per year per active person so so over 12 years that's 4,032 dollars savings for a participant 42,000 4,032 for active participants at times 260,711 is 1,051,186,752 actually comes this comes out to about $20,075 and guess what on the last page I'll show you that when the teachers pay nothing they'd be more federal income tax not much they'd be more Wisconsin income tax not much but no one's gonna say that they're getting a free ride and they're not paying their share of the Wisconsin tax or federal tax and they've really no race for several years why would they agree no race they end up with more money in their pocket impossible no the math is mad hold on Frank that's it okay I could show you a little bit if anybody doubts it I'll be available to show you the numbers and I'm gonna be at the meat library locker room Wednesday in the afternoon Thursday in the morning anyone's gonna touch me this is here I also have she said have your representatives and state representatives and state senators numbers perhaps you should ask them what were they thinking when they passed this act it costs money thank you Frank thank you Frank anyone else on the Daryl could you pull the podium back for me yes we have one other person Dulcy Johnson please can you get in there Dulcy can I have your home address please 1306 North 3rd Street Sheboygan I have five minutes Mayor Van Akron City Clerk Richards City Attorney McLean Alderman and citizens on September 4th I spoke at the public forum about ambulance revenues for 2011 the 41% collection rate and the marginal loss of over $300,000 on September 17th at the public forum Chief Administrative Officer Amodio spoke about setting the record straight but in rebotting the figures I presented for 2011 revenues Mr. Amodio cited ambulance revenues for 2012 I never mentioned 2012 I only spoke about 2011 Mr. Amodio also disputed my statement that the city's collections for 2011 were 41% of what was billed and stated that collections were 77% I was not at the council meeting on the 17th but I watched a rerun of the meeting and emailed Mr. Amodio with my response noting that the finance department chooses to consider adjustments when they calculate the percentage of receipts even though the city does not receive the adjustments in response to my email Mr. Amodio stated and I quote your 41% is correct however it must be put into context Medicare and Medicaid they only pay on average 38% of the amount bill the most the city could collect is 58% of all claims billed this 58% compared to 41% it does not take into consideration the 90 to 120 day payment lag end of quote on August 21st I had emailed a Freedom of Information Act request to Nancy bus in the finance department requesting a copy of the billing service provider activity for calls from January 1st 2011 through December 31st 2011 the wording of my request was identical to the request I made last year for 2010 figures last year the information I received include to the number of calls gross billings adjustments receipts and the percentage of collections and adjustments this year in response to an identical request I only received a listing of the number of calls each month I don't know why I didn't receive the complete information but I did indeed find the information I was seeking in my files Mr. Amodio said that my calculation of 41% did not include the 90 to 120 day lag receipts the billing collection information I received from Mr. Amodio when I met with him in chief Herman does not indicate payments for 2011 billings so I don't know where or how that information is recorded Mr. Amodio said that the most the city can collect is 58% of all claims so I asked him why he said collections were 77% in response Mr. Amodio said and I quote for net collections we are collecting 77% of the 58% without considering the lag in payments this is why it is very misleading let me repeat that for net collections we are collecting 77% of the 58% without considering the lag in payments this is why it is very misleading misleading that is an understatement how do potential maximum collections of 58% result in net collections of 77% would a private business consider what they could have collected or adjustments that they had to write off as part of their income I think not I have never learned new math I only learn good old fashioned arithmetic and billings of two million one hundred and fifty three thousand eight hundred and thirteen dollars and receipts of eight hundred and seventy seven thousand four hundred and fifty two dollars results in a collection rate of 41% I am hard pressed to believe that the lag receipts would raise that percentage to 77% indeed although buildings and receipts for twenty ten were lower when I add the collections for twenty ten buildings received in twenty eleven the percentage of buildings for twenty ten with the ninety two one hundred and twenty day lag is only forty two percent some have called the city's ambulance accounting system voodoo economics I call it gobbledygook thank you thank you Chelsea that would be it we'll move on to the public hearings first public hearing is a public hearing which time any resident or taxpayer of the government unit shall have an opportunity to be heard on the proposed budget two people so far that have asked to be heard Mike Burnett like we already have your address and things so thank you me I don't have much to say because the bottom line is I don't really know how to respond it's like walking to a restaurant they give you a menu and it says food on it it's like you want food or no I mean there's a budget there but there's no items on it and it's like but if I was a gambling man I'd roll on public safety just give everybody batting helmets and some safety gloves maybe steel tool shoes that seems to be the bulk of all our budget there and it's like but overall I know our budget is relatively tight in the sounds the way it is but I'd like to be able to see a little expansion and I understand with a lot of stuff it's like I don't know if we're competing with Sheboygan Falls and its secret information or whatever but in the days of the internet that stuff can be spun out there pretty quick and then people would really have a clue what's going on and I know it opens a can of worms but so be it and that's all I got other than that was freaking awesome Frank and I would like to get to the night. Thank you Mike. Next person signed up is Maeve Quinn. Good evening Mayor Van Akron, Alderman and Citizen. Thank you for the opportunity to speak at the public hearing of the budget of the city of Sheboygan. Maeve could you speak a little more into the thank you. Thank you. These last few years have not been easy for our city to create a budget that reflects the needs and wants of its citizens. Tonight I'd like to share with you my own perspective of excuse me of this city. Twenty years ago my husband and I chose to live in the city of Sheboygan. Today we are still choosing to live in the city of Sheboygan because we strongly believe that the taxes we pay support services that we need. We value the strong public safety of police and fire, mead public library, local parks, clean drinkable water, the transit service, garbage pickup service, and the snow removal service. Now I hope because I said the word snow in October I haven't made that happen for tomorrow so thank goodness it's made out of wood. A few weeks ago UW-Sheboygan interviewed several potential dean candidates that came from all over. I was invited to provide one of the candidates with a short driving tour of the city of Sheboygan. We were encouraged to show off the best of the city. Before beginning the tour I had asked him if there was anything in particular that he really want wanted to see. He promptly asked to see our library, some of our neighborhoods, and Lake Michigan. You can probably imagine where this person was probably from not around here. This really made me smile and I asked him why he wanted to focus on these areas. He shared that one of the ways he judges communities is how they value their local library and how they value their unique natural resources. He was astonished by the incredible open access for all to enjoy Lake Michigan.  He was also when we stopped in at the library early in the afternoon he was quite thrilled to see over 100 citizens of all ages utilizing the library services. It was really quite fun to show off our amazing city. As all of you already know our citizens of the city of Sheboygan certainly value their meet public library. Over 32,000 people hold library cards. 32,000 citizens. Over 120 citizens visit the library every single hour. Over 800,000 items were checked out in this past year and of those that were checked out 73% of those items were city of Sheboygan residents. This is quite extraordinary. Our citizens truly value and utilize this public service. All of us working together promises a strong future for meet public library. Thank you. Thank you, Maeve. Thank you. Is there anybody else like to be heard? Can you state your name and address for the clerk, please? Kathy Norman, 3217 North 6. I'm sorry, 3217 North 6. Okay. I came to speak in support also of the library. Normally one would make comments in response to a very tangible budget proposal. This one's been a little bit circuitous. I don't even quite know how to respond. Other than to say I know right now the library isn't seem to be facing any significant cuts but I know anything can happen so I would remiss if I didn't act on behalf of the library. I'm on the library board as well as the library foundation board and one of my roles is to mean advocate for the library. So I thought you should hear that there are still lots of people out in the community agitating to support the library that would be very unhappy if the city council didn't support it to the level it's been supported before. We have lots of essential services that you support but I can't think of one that's more tangible when you've got more than half of your population with library cards and if you spend any time at the library I hope all of you do but it is a beehive of activity, 24-7. I have never been there when it isn't just humming. I'm there probably four or five days a week. I've gotten a lot of parking tickets there. I always spend more time inside than I think I'm going to and my meter runs out but it is always always busy. One story I like to tell people is that I had a old professor from Northwestern University come up. She was trying to solicit support for a new program at Northwestern and she came early to our meeting and she killed some time at the library before we had our appointment and when we got together she said I just spent two hours at your library and I cannot believe what an incredible facility that is. She said for a community this size I am so impressed and I thought that made me proud about living in Sheboygan and we need to keep that going. That's what keeps our downtown vibrant. It can be a fairly, you know, not so exciting downtown but I think the library is the tenant or the the anchor of that downtown so I would urge you to support it to the level you always have and to give it your utmost support. Thank you. Thank you, Kathy. Anyone else wishing to be heard? Anyone else wishing to be heard? Anyone else wishing to be heard? Alderman Hammond. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I move we close the hearing. I move and seconded the hearing be closed. Clerk will call the roll. 15 ayes. Motion carries. Second hearing tonight is public hearing amending the zoning map for property located at 2013 South 13th Street from class in our neighborhood residential to class neighborhood commercial classification. Is there anyone here to be heard on that hearing? Is there anyone here for the second hearing? Is there anyone here for the second hearing? Alderman Hammond. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I move we close the hearing. I move and seconded to close the hearing. Clerk will call the roll. 15 ayes. Motion carried. Move on to the consent agenda 3-1 through 3-19. Alderman Hammond. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Please bear with my voice. Motion to accept and file all RO's accept and adopt all RC's pass all the resolutions pass all ordinances and substitute of substitute ordinances. Second. It's been moved and seconded to pass all committee reports, pass all RO's, pass all resolutions and substitute resolutions. Alderman Carlson. Thank you, Mayor. I would like to pull 3-18 for a separate vote. We will move on 3-18 first. Alderman Carlson. Any discussion or just? I guess the next nation with 3-18 is bringing back the overtime compensation only on the holidays. Last time we had a brief discussion on the vacation, which were the benefit days. So they were removed and this would take effect at the beginning of the year. Alderman Carlson. Thank you, Mayor. I can't support this mainly because I don't think we should be paying overtime for hours not worked. I don't think I should really have to say more than that. Alderman Bourne. Thank you, Mayor. I'm not going to support this either, but I wish if our HR manager or Mr. Amorio could explain the financial implications of this if it does pass. HR director, I see, is headed on the way up here. Sandy? Good evening. Financial impact would be approximately 75,000. We had anticipated if we had included vacation and holiday it'd be about 100,000. The holiday schedules, if you can imagine, we can't move or juggle schedules.  So that's the majority of that cost, about 75,000. Any other questions? Alderman Carlson. Anybody else have any questions? I have a question. Is the 75,000 part of the already existing money that we're paying, or are we paying an additional 75,000? Because right now we're paying it at straight time no matter what. We're paying that straight time so we figured that would be additional cost. Okay, so if we were paying $10 an hour for straight time and $15 an hour for overtime, it would be that extra $5 would have to another 75,000. Thank you. Any other questions of the HR director? Thank you, Sandy. Alderman Risler, we need a motion then on 318. Thanks. I would move that the report of committee be accepted and adopted. Second. It's been moved and seconded. The committee report be accepted and adopted. Any other discussion? Hearing none, the clerk will call. I'm sorry. Hang on. Sorry, Mr. Mayor. And I believe, what was the second part all around? Subs of subs. Pass of substitute. And then I just have a couple of comments on it as well. I understand that you don't want to pay for work that isn't done but unfortunately as we go back and I talk about the private sector, if we're calling somebody on a Saturday to come into work or on a Sunday, we're paying the extra money. Unfortunately, we're putting these people out to do this and work an extra day during the week and right now they're being compensated at straight time. And again, I go back to the private sector where they would be compensated at additional time. It was a five nothing vote at the committee and like I said, I think that we have an obligation to our employees as the gentleman who presented the Act 10. This is somewhat of a compromise with the employees to get from where we were to where we are now. Thank you. Thank you, Mayor Carlson. Thank you, Mayor.  I work Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and I usually have to go in on Saturday. I work my 40 hour work week. I do not get paid overtime for that eight hours on Saturday because it's still within my 40 hours. If I were to happen to work over 48 hours to include my holiday pay, then I would get overtime. So you can't blanket say that everything in the private sector pays overtime for that extra day worked. Thank you. Any other discussion? Hearing none, the clerk will call the roll. That was fast. Apparently seven eyes, eight nose. Motion fails. I'm gonna leave it up for a couple minutes. We'll take on everything on the consent agenda except 318. Now we had a motion to accept all the RCs, all the committee reports, all the reports of all sort of resolutions and substitute resolutions be put upon their passage. Any discussion on anything else? Clerk will call the roll. 15 eyes. Motion carried. 41 Report of Officers from the Plan Commission recommending, um, ending the zoning property located at 3711 South Taylor will lie over. 42 will be referred for three is been withdrawn. Communication 44 will be referred and 45 will be referred. 51 Resolutions introduced by Alderman Heidemann authorizing persistent agent to prepare an issue request for proposals for real beautification of city owned shanty at 705 Riverfront Drive. Alderman Heidemann. Thank you, Mayor. I put resolution upon his passage. It's been moved and seconded to have the resolution be put upon its passage. Under discussion, Alderman Heidemann. Our discussion now since the process of on this body decided that they wanted to save the shanty, we got to find out what's all involved and get a cost effective cost of what it was going to cost to save that shanty. So this is the starting process and this will come back to the public works. Thank you. Any other discussion? Alderman Donahue. Thank you. I'm going to support this resolution. My concern is, as you read through it, you realize that it is an extremely detailed plan request for proposal for a detailed overhaul and reconstruction of the shanty. Now, the detail is exquisite. It is probably necessary. My concern is that in some fashion or another, this request for proposal by the nature of its substantial detail will discourage or somehow derail any other development efforts that might be happening with the shanty. Now, the reason I'll support it, however, is my understanding that if there are requests for proposal that actually do meet all of the details of this particular resolution that will go back to public works. If there's not, that will also go back to public works. In other words, by passing this, we are not closing the door on those folks who may be interested in preserving the shanty and who come up with an alternate plan that may not necessarily meet with the detail of the RFP. So it has my support, but with that understanding. Thank you. Alderman Bourne. Thank you, Mayor Van Akron. I understand from the last council meeting that there's a redevelopment authority meeting coming up. Is it the 18th of this month? How is that meeting? Is this fish shanty thing going to be on that agenda? Are there going to be any proposals coming forward from the private sector other than the original one we had where the person wanted to invest $200,000? Then Mr. Dolson had a supposed businessman who was interested in coming forth and restoring this. Where does this redevelopment authority meeting coming up in a few days fit into this equation? I don't believe it does figure into the equation because we didn't transfer the property to the redevelopment authority. So it's still under the city council and the city's control. So we'd be looking at proposals, not the redevelopment authority, because we never transferred the property. Correct? That's correct. And there is nothing on the agenda for the October 18th meeting with regard to the shanty. From redevelopment standpoint, redevelopment authority doesn't have any jurisdiction over the shanty issue at this point. Thank you. Any other questions? Any other discussion? Are you none? The clerk will call the roll. 15 ayes. Motion carries. By through a resolution by 5-2, a resolution by Alderman van de Wille, Madacek Kaaf Lewandowski, authorizing the city attorney to engage in outside legal services regarding the suspension of revocation of a cigarette tobacco license number 14-6. Alderman van de Wille. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I move to suspend the rules. Second. It's been moved and seconded to suspend the rules. Discussion under the suspension. Who seconded it? I'm sorry. We'll first vote on the suspension of the rules. Thank you. 13 ayes, 2 noes. Rules are suspended. Alderman van de Wille. I move to put the resolution upon its passage. Second. It's been moved and seconded to have the resolution be put upon its passage. Under discussion, Alderman van de Wille. A little bit of history here. This has come before the committee or council before. I'm going to go back to the beginning. On August 14th, the committee was advised by Sergeant Zempel that tidy car had sold tobacco to a minor through the WINS program. It was voted to 4-0 to call the license holder into law licensing. On August 28th, Joseph Jantz appeared before the committee. There was quite a bit of discussion. The first motion was made by Alderman Lassard and seconded by Maddachek to issue a warning. After discussion, the motion was withdrawn. Then Alderman Maddachek moved to suspend for five days and it failed for a second. Alderman Lassard and van de Wille moved to issue a warning and there was 2 ayes and 2 noes so the motion failed. After more discussion, Alderman Lewandowski and Maddachek requested a 15-day suspension, which was later amended for 10 days and it was approved 3-1. On September 11th, Joseph Jantz denied the offer to close for 10 days and requested a quasi-judicial hearing. On September 17th, council denied funding for the representation of the committee for the quasi-judicial hearing. For the October 9th, 2012 meeting, I asked that the motion to rescind be placed on the agenda. At that meeting, I made a motion to rescind the motion from August 28th, 2012 and the motion died for lack of a second. Based on that, we have to have a quasi-judicial hearing. We have no choice. We've done all that we can to avoid it based on the council denying funding last time. So we submitted another document and we're not asking the council if they agree with what we're doing with having the quasi. There is no agreeing with that right now. All we're asking is that the five of us who are on the committee have representation when we are doing this judicial hearing. Thank you. Alderman Raceland. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I supported this last time and I think Alderman Donahue elegantly spoke on it and basically said we need to have some representation for this hearing. We're kind of putting ourselves out there as a city as a whole if we're not going to provide this committee with the ability to succeed. So I'll support it again. Thank you. I remember everybody that this hearing will be not just the committee, but the 16 of you will be... Well, I'm sorry, just the committee and that they will need then somebody because Steve will be acting as the prosecutor. Steve, maybe you can explain a little more. Our office and it would be Assistant City Attorney Adams would be presenting the case for the recommendation of the Law and Licensing Committee suspension of the license and the outside council would be representing the Law and Licensing Committee members who are acting basically as the judge at that hearing and providing legal assistance to that committee in during the proceeding. The committee would hold the hearing develop, come up with the recommendation, develop findings of fact and conclusions of law and those would be presented to the council as a recommendation and then the council would act on basically the written findings of fact conclusions of law that had been presented by the Law and Licensing Committee during the question judicial hearing. Steve, I know you can't give an exact number but approximately what kind of dollars are we talking about? You know, it's impossible to say with any precision but typically it's been a couple hundred dollars is what it's run. Typically we've hired Joe Volkner from the Olsen-Cloet firm and you know what it would depend on the amount of time that the hearing took. He basically charges, can't quote his fee, $180 an hour or something like that but basically it's the time he would devote to the hearing. I don't think that there's a lot of prep time that he will need to do or anything like that and our office would do most of the legwork as far as the findings of fact conclusions of law and that sort of thing so it's a matter of just being present at the hearing. Thank you. Any other discussion? Hearing none, quick. Alderman Bellinger. Thank you, Mayor. Just a question for Steve. If this doesn't pass, this hearing still takes place without representation. Is that correct? I mean if or does the hearing not take place? If it doesn't pass. Well that's the issue we had last time. I guess that'll be up to the Law and Licensing Committee but I would assume that they would hold the hearing and go without legal representation as far as hearing the case. It raises concerns about if there are any objections made during the hearing as far as evidentiary sorts of issues, whether witnesses were subpoenaed, if somebody was requesting subpoenaed witnesses, things like that that would go unaddressed but I would assume that the committee would proceed with the hearing in any event. Any other questions? Alderman Bellinger? Alderman Vandenewilie. We would have to go continue with the quasi-judicial hearing because I did have the motion or tried to have the motion to rescind. When I made the motion I needed one of the other two who voted for the quasi to second and either one of them that did so we could do the same thing over again but really we need to just go on with this quasi regardless of whether we have representation or not. Alderman Raceler. Thank you Mr. Matt. Just trying to help Alderman Heidemann who doesn't know how to use the buttons. His button's not working. Thank you. We turned it off on purpose. Thank you very much. Again I'm not going to support this. I do compliment the chairman of the committee for offering up an opportunity for this process to go away but not getting a second from two Alderman. Evidently they've got something that for some reason didn't understand that when the council last time did not want to fund the quasi-judicial the attorney said hey maybe this is the right place right way to go. Give this gentleman a warning and get it over with. They could have easily done that at that committee but they just decided not to and again I don't see spending 200 or $300 on representation to give the try to pull some of these license that the actual clerk only got a warning and then they want to hang the business owner. Alderman Donahue. Well I appreciate the procedural review. This is actually appears to have gotten it to be a fairly complicated matter. I'm speaking up just because this is what my mom would call penny wise and pound foolish. We are proposing to take away livelihood from the business owner. We can do that but that business owner is entitled to due process of law. Now I have acted as such a hearing officer in other hearings and other galaxies and I can tell you that the services rendered are important. Number one the hearing officer assists the committee in making sure that proper evidence is admitted and improper evidence is excluded. It makes sure that the committee is focused and directed when it is making its decision. It advises the committee if it has a tendency to consider factors that a circuit court or the court of appeals or the Wisconsin Supreme Court would consider improper. It advises the committee to avoid those kinds of considerations. We just need to do this. We have a structure in place. This would be like saying you know that speeding ticket, you know the officer was really right and let's have a hearing and let's just invite a couple of people in municipal court. Let's invite the Alderman in to make that decision and not have a judge make that decision. It's just not proper. This is something we have to do. Now what if we don't do it and the committee goes ahead? God willing in the creeks don't rise. Everything goes well. A good decision is made and things are processed and you know whatever happens will happen. If things don't go well, $200 will seem like a blessing compared to the attorney fees that the city will expend defending itself at the circuit court level and or the court of appeals unlikely the Wisconsin Supreme Court. But let me just say it because I'm a little excited about this. I really think that this is something that we need to approve. It is just what makes this a democracy and a judicial system, a quasi judicial system which is fair and impartial and that our citizens can rely on. Thank you Alderman Donahue. Any other discussion? Alderman LaSard. Thank you mayor. I sit on this committee and I was not in favor of taking this man's license away for 10 days but I'm also not in favor of having this procedure happen without legal advice. So I would like to ask you all to support the funding we need so we can get the facts on the table and do it in a proper manner with legal counsel. Thank you. Thank you Alderman LaSard. Any other discussion? Hearing none clerk will call the roll. Ten eyes, five noes. Motion carries. Five three, five four and five five will lie over. Five six and five seven will be referred. Six one report a committee from salarium grievance recommending the current job current chief administrator's officers job description be approved. Alderman Raichler. Thank you Mr. Mayor. I move that the our report of committee be accepted and adopted. Second. It's been moved and seconded that the RO be accepted and adopted. Alderman Vaughn. Thank you Mayor Van Akron. When I read over this document, this job description, I read it over very closely and I found one thing that I thought was a little inconsistent. It may be but what I'm going to recommend just follows with the rest of the document in here. The majority of the document says for example under number two common counsel with the input of the mayor. Then when you go to the chief administrator of the officer's supervisory responsibilities, that first sentence says carries out supervisory responsibilities in accordance with the city policies and equitable laws. Responsibilities include hiring of employees, planning and directing work in consultation with the mayor. I would like to make a motion to strike in consultation with the mayor and put in there with input from the mayor. This just follows along with the language from the rest of the document and makes it consistent throughout. So I'd like to make that motion. I'll second. So move seconded to amend the document to have input from the mayor instead of whatever the current is. With input strike in consultation with the mayor and put in with input from the mayor. Does everybody understand the amendment? We'll vote on the amendment first. Clerk will call the roll. 13 ayes, 2 noes. Motion carries. Now back to the original as amended. I'm sorry. Clerk will call the roll. 14 ayes, 1 noes. Motion carries. 62 from law and licensing recommending taxi driver license number 9491 be denied based upon her record. Alderman Vanda-Willie. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I move the second. Second. Move seconded that the RC be accepted and adopted under discussion. Is Regina Ramirez here this evening? She is here. She revealed all of her convictions to the committee. The committee was concerned about a 2011 inattentive driving after Regina had told us a little bit more as to what happened. There was an accident that occurred due to a flashback she was having from a previous accident. And it was severe enough that her car was completely total. There was also concern for 2012 noise disturbance and disorderly conduct. It happened at the same time. It was between her and the downstairs neighbor. And the police had concerns overall about maybe her recollection of the events as to it didn't go along with their normal procedure. The applicant would like to address the council. Can you give your name and address for the place? Regina Ramirez, 1218 Superior Avenue. Thank you. I was just letting the council know to re look at my case or open up and actually see what really happened. I'm not sure exactly what they're saying happened because I didn't go into my record. I don't know what the police said. I haven't went back that far. I did have an accident and I told them, you know, what happened? It was not a child that was coming out. It was a bush that was underneath my car and it was an accident. It was, I believe in 2011, I believe, and a little boy shot out darted out between two cars. I stopped but the little boy still hit my car and it really scared me. I kind of went into shock and I was afraid to drive. And because I was afraid to drive, I put myself and went to the doctor and said, you know what? I'm scared. And they said, what are you scared of? I said, I'm scared to drive. And she said, what do you mean? I said, when I get into the car, I get panicky. I'm scared. I start shaking. And she said it was anxiety. So she's referred me to Winnebago Mental Health Clinic. I took the precautions that I had to. I completed everything I had to. They took me off everything I had to do and proceeded with everything they told me to do. This was more than what this is 2012 or this was in 2011. So it's over a year and a half ago. This happened in June with the little boy. In August, I still wasn't driving. I was scared. Soon as I saw like little bush like running underneath the I didn't know was a bush. I saw something coming out. I hit the brakes. There was water. I slipped. I lost control of my vehicle. I did. It was an accident. Everybody could have an accident. There was a tree bush underneath my vehicle. You know, everybody could have an accident. So I'm hoping you guys will reconsider and look at my case, go through it if you have to thoroughly and make a decision. I'm hoping that you guys do that. And I would like my license back. I've been driving for about three months. Well, I've been driving with the taxi company for three months. I've been driving myself for six months. Never had an accident. I'm more precautious now. I'm very, very aware of when I see little kids, I do not like to go by the schools because I'm afraid of that happening. But anybody would be if that would happen to you because he was a little child. You know, he was like nobody would have saw him. It was two cars. It was an accident. I was in the newspaper. It was at a church. We were coming out of church. Stuff happens. We just don't know why it happens to good people. I have no record. Nothing at all. I did have a disorderly conduct. I do.  So I'm cursed with an ex boyfriend that had a mean mother. So I broke up with him and now I have no problems. It's over. Any questions of the applicant? Questions of the applicant? Alderman Bourne. No one out of the applicant. Oh, okay. Any questions of the applicant? Alderman Vandewilm. Thank you. Could you tell us a little bit about the noisy disturbance and disorderly conduct that occurred in 2012? Yes. I used to work for a little boy for Sheboygan County Health and Human Services. I can't give him his last name, but I can give you his first name. His name was Jerry. He is like, he can't walk very well. Well, he got up to go to the restroom. I told the police this. I told him to come upstairs. He didn't want to come upstairs. They called the police because there was stomping. He stomped up. He got up and stomped all the way to the bathroom. Well, my next-door neighbor, well, my downstairs neighbor, which is my ex-boyfriend's mother-in-law, ex-now, called the police and said we were stomping around. And I told him, come up. And I said, I was going to take it to court, but she went, she moved to Iowa. So I wasn't able even to take it to court. So I just paid my ticket and did what I had to do. But I have paperwork on him where he, you know, I take him to the doctor and everything. He was living with me for over six months. Alder and Vanderbilt. You'd also received a sorely conduct that same evening? Yeah, it was her daughter. Her daughter came screaming, trying to push into my house, calling me all names. I pushed the door and I slammed the door and it hit her on her face as she was screaming at me. I'm not going to let someone come into my house, especially her daughter. She don't even live there. It wasn't even the lady that lives downstairs. It was her daughter. Any other questions of the applicant? Any other questions? Thank you. Alderman Bourne. Thank you, Mayor. Chairman Vanderbilt, what was the vote of the committee and did you get any recommendation from the police department on this? The committee denied her request for a license five to zero.  Typically there'd be more to it than just slamming the door as well as the noise disturbance. So he was without having the police report in front of him, he was just said it didn't sound completely like the full story. Any other questions? Any other discussion? Alderman Donahue. Just a point of information. At what point could an applicant make a new application for a license if she's denied? Anytime. Anytime? And is there a typical rule of thumb about how long a person needs to wait in order for an application to be favorably considered? A year. Is there any other discussion? Hearing none, clerk will call the roll. 11 ayes, 4 noes. Motion carries. 6-3 reported committee from finance recommending establishing policy for fund balances for self-insurance health insurance fund and self-insurance worker compensation on Alderman Ammon. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I move to accept and adopt and pass the resolution. It's been moved and seconded to accept and adopt and pass the resolution. Is there any discussion? Seeing none, clerk will call the roll. 15 ayes. Motion carried. 7-1 ordinance amending various sections of the municipal court will lie over. 8-1, an aro for the city plan commission recommending approval of changing of zoning map for property located at 2013 south 13th street. Alderman Hammon. Thank you, Mary. I move that the aro be accepted and adopted and pass the ordinance. It's been moved and seconded that the aro be accepted and adopted and pass the resolution. Is there any discussion? Hearing none, clerk will call the roll. 15 ayes. Motion carried. 8-2 resolution by Alderman Hammon approving the sale of certain redevelopment authority property at Alderman Hammon. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I move that we pass the resolution. It's been moved and seconded that the resolution be put upon its passage. Is there any discussion? Hearing none, clerk will call the roll. 15 ayes. Motion carried. 8-3 resolution from Alderman Hammon amending resolution 3-14, 35-12-13 by Alderman Heidemann passed on July 16th, 2012. Alderman Hammon. Actually, it's Alderman Heidemann. I'm sorry, Alderman Heidemann. Thank you, Mayor. I move that the resolution be put upon its passage. Second. It's been moved and seconded that the resolution be put upon its passage. Under discussion, Alderman Heidemann. Back in July, we passed this resolution and since then there's been an addition of $5,000, so we need to repass the resolution. Is there any other discussion? Hearing none, clerk will call the roll. Motion carried. 9-1 under other matters will be referred to finance under other matters city attorney. 9.2 is an RO by the city clerk submitting various license applications for the period ending June 30, 2013 and June 30, 2014. I will go to law and licensing. 9.3 is an RO by the purchasing agent submitting a recommendation for award of bid number 1734-12 for the purchase of three vehicles for the transit department. That will go to finance. 9.4 is a resolution authorizing the purchasing agent to enter into contract for the purchase of those three vehicles for the transit department. That will go to finance. 9.5 is a resolution authorizing the appropriate city officials to execute an application for an aquatic invasive species control grant for the city. Grant is between the Department of Natural Resources and the city. Up to $20,000 for the implementation of invasive species control near North Point Park. Public works. 9.6 is a resolution authorizing the transfer of appropriations in the 2012 budget. Finance. 9.7 is an RO by the city clerk submitting a notice of claim from Caster law offices on behalf of their client Sandra Bear. That will also go to finance. 10-1. Motion to go into closed session. Alderman Handman. Thank you Mr. Mayor. Move to convene in closed session or the exemption provided in section 19.851 E Wisconsin Statutes for the purpose of discussion and formulation of negotiation strategies relative to possible agreement for combining emergency dispatch services where competitive and bargaining reasons require a closed session. Second. It moves and seconded to go into closed session. Clerk will call the roll. 14 ayes one no. We will go into we will take a five-minute break and go into closed session. We will not come back to the open session.


Congratulations on completing the first two units of Sailor.org's interviewing course. In this third and final unit of the course, we will focus on negotiating compensation. This unit will provide you with resources that address the daunting subject of salary and other types of perks that you may secretly desire but are afraid to ask for. Again, the experts tell us that they are always surprised at how many interviewees do not ask for what they want. A prepared candidate is expected to have knowledge of comparable positions in their labor market as well as their own competitive market value. In this unit, you will learn how to obtain salary information for a specific type of job or occupation. For example, in Negotiate Your Salary, Career One-Stop helps you explore salary information for over 800 occupations. Understand the rules of the game. They advise don't assume the first offer is fixed. Even if the interviewer tells you it is, it rarely is. You'll learn how to evaluate the offer wisely and to communicate your ideas, questions and concerns effectively. In Virginia Tech's Career Services article titled, Salary Questions and Negotiating, the authors include various scenarios in which you are asked to respond to questions about salary expectations. You must sound prepared and confident when discussing these issues. After all, if you don't think you're worth it, why should the employer? You will also read Rachel Farrell's article from CareerBuilder.com titled, Eight Ways to Negotiate for Job Perks. Salary is not the only means of receiving compensation for a position you desire. The article quotes Tina Chen, Vice President of Operations for EmployCoUSA, just because a company may not be flexible with salary negotiations doesn't mean that they are not willing to offer other extras in lieu of a higher salary. There are many perks that can make up for differences to make the workplace more attractive. Some of these perks include extra vacation time, flexible scheduling, continuing education, benefits and tuition reimbursement. And sometimes as Bill Driscoll, the district president of Robert Half International has pointed out, negotiating these perks can actually be better than negotiating for a higher salary. When closing, experience tells us that throughout your job search, you'll probably have several interviews. Don't think of a rejection as a failure, but as a chance to have one more practice step in your journey to land that perfect job. Best of luck on any interviews you have coming up.


Okay, so the next speaker is Richard Guy Briggs who's been involved in Linux security for what 20 years Also, almost I first met Richard. He was Back in the late 90s. He was working on the freesmon project and I had started doing some development on that That was before we could have IP sec in the in the kernel due to the the first round of crypto wars and That's how I actually got started in in the next kernel development through that project So Richard is here to talk about audit and namespaces and containers Well, this is encouraging. I was figuring that the way to clear the room was to announce talk about audit All right, so I've been whoops don't want that kick dear Excuse me, I guess I'll have to talk for less than five minutes on each slide so a bit of history I started hacking on computers back in the late 70s and I guess there's been sort of a steady progression ever since There's most of the most of the history there Exposer to PDP 1123 started doing some real programming Then got some education Well got some schooling shall I say the education came later then as James mentioned worked on freeswan and then worked on some imager drivers for security cameras in fact and Then I've been working with red hat for three and a half years now So I'm known in other places a sunracer from some of my solar car racing and RGB on IRC and more recently as a Diplomatic dependent and so that will explain why I might yondring the talk because I'm still somewhere over the Atlantic in terms of jet lag Yeah, so what is audit well, it was introduced by Rick faith in 2004 who was redhatter Came in and Just about the time that the kernel started actually using git And that the logs were were kept What is it? It's more or less syslog on steroids Syslog has a lot of functionality that's used for monitoring what's going on and a lot of it's used for debugging Audits point is more to Securely document what's going on so that if something bad happens you can go back and potentially use these logs in a court of law To be able to say okay. Well, this happened at this point in this particular person did that and whatnot It works well with s c linux and with other Security modules in the kernel and the point was to be able to have it be able to report stuff that's going on Actions that have been taken place on part of some of the other security tools There's a there's a user space daemon which logs to disk or to net So there are events that are generated in the kernel itself which are reported but there's also events generated by various different user space tools and They will contact the kernel and queue things and Yeah, so there are configurable kernel filters so that you can select what you actually want to see or be able to see more Detail on something or ignore others It only reports behavior It doesn't actually interfere actively with what's going on in the running system with the exception of If you've got some situation where it's not able to document or report what's going on Then you can set things up to be able to actually panic the kernel and stop it So what are namespaces? They were first introduced Sorry, I'll back up a second Namespaces are kernel-enforced user space views so It's able it's possible to set things up so that from a set of namespaces you've got a limited view from the from user space of what's actually going on on the system and This is set up so that You could have Various different processes compartmentalized and they are not able to see beyond their their own scope So at the moment there are seven different namespaces. We've got pure namespaces, which include the mountain namespace it was the first one to be introduced in 2001 and The way from the naming of that particular namespace it looked like people thought at that time that that was going to be The only namespace that was going to be introduced It's expanded since then and Yeah, so the UTS namespace is the one that basically says this is the host that you're running on and Can also provide domain information The IPC namespace as I've seen a few other people suggest nobody really knows what this does But it was introduced at a similar time I'm not sure whether anybody actually uses them now The net namespaces those are a little bit easier to understand There again, they're peer Systems are peer namespaces. So the system comes up in the initial peer net namespace and All of the physical devices appear in that namespace so then if you want to have a new network namespace you can unshare to go to that network namespace and if you want to be able to use one of the physical names physical devices in that namespace then you can assign it from the initial namespace into that network namespace and each network namespace has its completely independent stack so you can have its own firewalling and Devices and they're completely isolated if you want to get them talking to each other Then you can set up a virtual ethernet pair between two namespaces and then treat it as another device and set up your rules and your firewall stacks and all the processes there In terms of hierarchies there are three Namespaces that are set up as a hierarchy. So the the permissions are inherited from one to another the PID namespace was the first of those to be introduced and the idea there is that in the initial PID namespace you start at process one and then in a Child namespace you have Whatever PID that process is that becomes the first process in your new PID namespace Has PID of one in the new namespace, but it's got a PID of I don't could be three thousand or something like that in your initial namespace So it has representation in all of the parent namespaces and can be monitored as such peer PID namespaces don't have any view into each other. So if you've got two child children, which are PID namespaces which are spawned from the same namespace PID namespace Then each one is not able to see into its peers space user namespaces are I guess the most contentious one so far There's a lot of security Traps that are Waiting to well not just waiting then some of them have already exposed themselves But it's the most contentious in terms of how do we do security with username spaces as a result there are a number of Distributions that have not enabled username spaces by default yet because there's still some work to be done to iron out Where these are going? In username spaces you can Spawn an unprivileged user will be able to spawn a username space and then within that new namespace they can map all the users within there back to an existing user in the Parent namespace so in that username space caught it In that username space you can Have a root user with UID of zero, but it would map back to an unprivileged user in the parent namespace So that presents some issues about How much permission do you give that route within the username space? Yeah, so it can be very powerful, but it can also be a trap so In terms of how odd it relates to this stuff I'll get to in a moment see groups are the newest namespace which have just been introduced this spring and The point of that one is to hide memory limits I'm sorry not just memory limits, but system limits of various different C groups and the problem before was that if you've got You're using C groups within a set of namespaces You're able to get an idea of what the system limits are and the whole point of it. It's to hide them I haven't been following the details of it, but I know enough that It's here and it's being accepted upstream and Things are being ironed out I wanted to say at the beginning if you've got questions by all means raise your hand and I'll try and address them in line I may simply defer to a later slide to answer the question or To discussion afterwards if it's if it's getting too involved So what are containers? Well? We don't really have a hard definition. There seem to be many definitions and as many almost as many as there are users There's sort of a General consensus that's a combination of namespaces kernel namespaces secure computing sec comp and C groups The kernel doesn't have any concept of what is a container so at the moment It's up to some user space management tool to be able to say this is a container and I'm managing it like okay Cool, so what about the kernel? It doesn't really know about these things and it's user space. That's It's a concept. That's completely in user space at the moment at the moment So At this point from the kernels perspective where there is some interest in trying to Get a better sense of what is a container to be able to do the auditing so that When an event happens then you have a better idea of where this thing happened and what the context was and whatnot so a couple of different Potential directions that we can go there is to go with some kind of container ID that the kernel knows about or to try and track down all of the namespaces that are used in in one particular Event so that we can then trace back through other logs to say okay Well this set of namespaces was responsible for this action So what is the problem well to quote Highlander there can only be one at this point There can only be one audit daemon and it has to live in the Initial user and PID namespace and that's locked down by kernel rules that basically say it detects What namespaces you're in and simply gives you an error if you try and run it So so far with the mount UTS and IPC namespaces there's been no issues It's just not a problem things were wide open until 3.7 RC 1 There were some there was a limitation with network namespaces because it simply wasn't listening and it couldn't respond Once the user namespaces came along there was some necessity to start to lock things down because Of this obvious security implications of allowing this to happen The net namespaces that was fixed in 314 There was an interest to be able to have Back up a second. So network namespaces have been used by many network appliances to be able to run thousands of different network namespaces and and for example Some kind of switch where it needed or it was more convenient to be able to manage what was going on by compartmentalizing it into a number of different namespaces with their own firewall stacks and Network IPsec stacks and things like that and so There wasn't really any good reason to restrict which Network namespace it was in in which it was needed to listen in The application For that was VS FTPD, but I'm getting ahead of myself So user namespaces those as I've alluded there are some security concerns and And They're being there's ongoing work to address this stuff Eric Biederman, I've had a number of conversations with and he's certainly familiar with the issues as are some of the other security guys and It has Exposed some issues that have been in the mountain namespace since the very beginning But they were not really abusable until we started adding other namespaces and other ways of being able to use them So in terms of audit The audit daemon it seems to make the most sense to tie the audit daemon into the username space And I'll get to that a bit more in a moment So in terms of the network namespaces The initial network namespace was the the one that was originally the one listening and there were a number of proposals on how to try and deal with it and In the end the least complex solution one out for the moment for the short term there were discussions of multiple cues and things like that and Ways to be able to to say okay. Well is this network namespace Socket equivalent to this other one over here and so for the short term. We just put in a simple Patch to be able to allow any network namespace to talk There were obviously other restrictions so that if it was in other User or pid namespaces. It's it wouldn't work anyway, but at least the network stuff Worked so it it broke existing containers Because the original Assumptions were that the system would refute of sorry would return Econ refused when it wasn't available because the protocol simply wasn't there. Yeah Yes, so yeah to clarify there This wasn't for configuration issues. This was clients who were simply recording security information so All right, one of the one of the mechanisms that Audit has for determining whether or not you're allowed to run the daemon is I Guess most people have assumed that root is all-powerful on Unix systems and with capabilities That is able to restrict these things and no longer give root all-power. So there's Three capabilities right now Cap audit control is what allows an audit daemon to actually have permission to be able to run in that in that space Cap audit right is the one that you're referring to which actually allows user space daemons to be able to write a message To the audit log There is a third one cap audit read, but that's not Germain for what we're talking about here. So in this particular case in containers Pam When somebody was trying to log in in the container Pam would then try and write a log message a Unaudit user message Saying hi so-and-so logged in when it tries to do that and it got back and Econ refused it would say oh Audit's not configured. I just ignore it. I'm gonna just walk away But once we changed it so that in any network namespace The audit daemon was actually available Then it started returning E perm rather than Econ refused and since this was a subtle difference Then Pam got upset and just refused to log in altogether So we had to kind of juggle things a bit and so now we actually lie And give Econ refused when we're in that situation So we're gonna have to go back and fix that at a later date. There was a bit of a I guess a conflict and because it technically broke user space Only even though the fact that user space was broken to start with It changed the behavior and we all have a well many of us have a pretty good idea of how Linus feels about breaking user space so pin name spaces This was fixed so the use case here was VST PD off and Again like Pam or log in D Once a security event happens then it wants to send this information to audit and say hi This event happened. You probably want to know about it. You want to log it so VST PD broke in some distributions and So then it came through and say, okay, well, how are we gonna solve this problem? It's running in a Pid name space Which was completely restricted Pid and username spaces because of the higher hierarchical nature We basically said okay. Well that that that's not allowed to run but in this particular case it seemed to make sense to be able to allow it and We didn't see any danger in allowing cap audit right only in this particular case. So the We had to do some clean up in the code to be able to assure ourselves that any of the reports that were coming from non-initial PID name spaces were able to go through okay and the translation from its Pid name space into a name space that was at least well understood by the kernel Was necessary. So because the audit daemon lives in the initial PID name space We simply translated to the initial PID name space and we store it in that that way There was a number of other reporting and whatnot that was done using the wrong kernel functions or macros and those were cleaned up and fixed up including parent PID so There's also in some interfaces where When there's some reporting necessary to do to user space We want to make sure that when the time comes that we do have other tools in user space that can use cap audit control That they will get the correct information instead of getting something that's based in a different name space so looking ahead once we do allow cap audit control in PID name spaces, we're gonna have to go back and Fix a few things, but it shouldn't be too too Difficult to deal with we we have a pretty good idea. We understand the problem now now The user name spaces Gelfang had submitted about four patches in 2013 to try and address this stuff He was also the one who was responsible for one of the network Name space patches that was a bit more complex than necessary There are some ideas in his patches which will be helpful in the future and so we'll be able to borrow some of those ideas and Deal with the network namespace when that time comes The issues with his patch set for user name spaces there were quite a number of questions that came up that weren't sufficiently answered and As Was alluded in previous talk? There is some good rigor from the community as to why are you doing this? What's your use case and Have you thought about these different ways that things could be abused? And so there was some good discussion back and forth and it looked like things were just not quite ready for it yet Not withstanding the issues in the user names the security issues in the user name space So there's also a audit namespace Ideas were thrown around there weren't there was never any code chucked around yet But in the discussion that ensued from that It started to become more and more clear that we didn't want to muck around with Yet another namespace and that it seemed like the most logical place to anchor audit was in the user namespace still requires cap audit control and There's it's not completely clear whether that we need cap audit control in the initial namespace Or sorry in the parent namespace that is spawning the user namespace or somehow for it to end up with this in the User names the new user namespace itself So it there can only be one that rule isn't entirely broken because now that rule applies per user namespace Well not now, but in the planning that we're doing in the direction that we're going So another and a really important part of this is that we cannot have an audit daemon in a user namespace That's able to influence the audit daemon that's running on the initial namespace Which is the master one for the machine The best example that I can come up with is The ability to panic the kernel so if you've got things Configured in a user namespace to panic the kernel obviously it's going to take down the entire machine, which is simply unacceptable It's being pointed out that people who are really care about security aren't going to be interested in running audit in namespaces Perhaps But there's other use cases that have come up and there are people who may be interested in some of these services of audit but are quite willing to run containers and a potential use case here is that rather than panicking the kernel Audit D running in the names in a user namespace that detects something some condition that it's unhappy with Can simply kill off that user namespace and all its children There could be some interesting Ways to be able to use this so for each User namespace audit each one would have its own rule space. And so if you've got a hierarchical namespace such as the PID or user or C group namespace If you've got some kind of rule that applies in your In that particular namespace if the rule exists also in the parent namespace Then it could trigger a similar type of message in both of the namespaces at the same time But you can set up your name your your rules in your parent namespace such that it may not matter What's going on inside this user name namespace and you could avoid having things? DOS And Then within your namespace You could actually run your audit daemon and have all the logs that you want and be able to monitor What's going on and and and be happy with that information. It's also the question of the queue There was some discussion about where the queue should live and whether it should be a shared queue and whatnot And the obvious one is that if you overflow the queue in a user namespace Well, you know in a sub name in a child namespace Then it couldn't overflow the queue for the entire machine and that's simply unacceptable in terms of the influence of a audit in a container so it looks pretty clear that we're gonna have to have our own queue in each in each space so namespace IDs Within the Within the kernel There's an interest to to be able to track What's going on in various different containers? We don't have any idea. What is a container at this point in the kernel? And so there's two potential ways to approach this the one one potential one which was the one that was first proposed by Arista Rosensky of red hat three four years three years ago Was he proposed using the proc I node to be able to track these so there was some objection in the initial discussion that happened there and People reserved the right to be able to change the meaning of that particular metric and It was felt that that information was incomplete without the Without the device ID So I came along afterwards and proposed the serial number on these things so it was a monotonically in in incremented serial number per kernel and it would simply increment as namespaces were created and That the intent there was to create something that it couldn't be argued with it interfering With the the usage of the proc I nodes or potential change of use of the proc I nodes The proc part of it was eventually discarded because of the Cree you folks the What do you call it back up and restore for containers That yes Exactly. Thank you. I couldn't remember the name So it was It was removed from there, but still made available from the kernels perspective For being able to do audit logging the reason that the Cree you folks didn't like it is because if they're taking a Backing up a container and moving it to another host then if they try and restore it then that particular Number is not something that they could restore on the new host and it would show up as something different So the the process that was in it would be able to detect the fact that it had to be moved to a different host So that kind of stuff. It wasn't to be wasn't to be exposed Now that problem still exists with the proc I node, but that's their problem and I'm not going to compound it So the patch was also reworked for a namespace file system Which came about about a year and a half ago? Alvaro Pulled the namespace stuff off into its own file system and the device ID was added to it to be able to qualify any of the numbers that were presented so the idea here is that any events that happen you've got a set of namespace IDs which are included with the event and Basically be done with it and some user space orchestration Container orchestration tool would track those from the audit log messages and Be able to sort of reassemble the picture afterwards and say okay this thing was created here it had this these set of namespace IDs and then it was moved over to here and it had this set of namespace IDs and At a higher layer it would map and track all of this stuff so that it could keep track of what was going on the other Potential way to go here is to use something called a container ID or the idea of a container ID and This would have to be added to the task struct itself the idea is that Once you've got a container ID, then it's inherited by all of its children unless something says oh, it's now part of a different container So in this particular case, then you could use the event ID Sorry, you could use the container ID in various different events and the user space Orchestration tool would then simply be able to track that container ID throughout its full life It would be inherited by all of its children and the idea would be that I Guess I was just reflecting on this within the last week And it might actually make sense to do a capability to do that something like cap container set or something like that and then a Container orchestrator would have that particular capability to be able to set the container ID on a particular Process and then once it had that then it would automatically inherit down to all of its children Yeah, when it gets migrated when it gets migrated it would have a different Actually when it gets migrated you could Actually carry over the same container ID except that there could be another Container on the other host that's already got it punt. That's a user space problem Okay Anyway, it's yeah again, that's a question of how the user space orchestration tool manages that resource and It's simply I guess a helper so that the kernel is able to help the user space figure this out I should have gone back and Started with the first point on my slide here is there's already a precedent for this Which is the session ID and that was requested by the security folks to be able to track each login session So somebody logs into a machine and they switch to a different user They use sue or sudo or something like that and they switch around and they do various different stuff it all comes back to one initial login and When that initial login is done, that's when the session ID is set And so it's able to track all of the activity based on that original session ID so there's already a precedent on on using this type of mechanism and again the Kernel itself doesn't inherently know anything about the session ID This is something that's I guess a user space concept and the kernel is simply helping user space in managing that information That makes sense There was another question Yeah, and and again in both cases The audit logs would be aggregated by a Orchestrator that is able to go across hosts Because you could have more than one host that is hosting containers and you can migrate the containers between them And you want to be able to track the audit activity across both so that's that's a matter of Developing more tools at a higher level to be able to securely deal with this information so in conclusion We're okay for number of the namespaces and didn't have to do anything fortunately to to be able to manage them The net namespace is okay for now We anticipate that there are some changes that we'll need to make once There are username spaces in multiple audit daemons in particular If you could have a username space and its host to more than one net namespace And so it's a matter of getting all of those net namespaces within that the scope of that one username space To all be able to talk to the the audit daemon The PID PID namespace again, we're okay for now. We're able to receive Audit user messages from any PID namespace as long as that process is in the original the initial username space We'll need translation per PID ns, but that's well reasonably understood so The user day is sorry the audit daemon. We're expecting to anchor it in the username space after some discussion and and exploration and We think we understand reasonably well Why that needs to happen? Although there are still security concerns about user namespaces doesn't inherit the audit daemon No, no, it doesn't no it doesn't it depends on the rules that are in place for that Initial that parent namespace so the parent namespace would have its own rule set in its queue and if a User namespace doesn't choose to run an audit daemon. There isn't any reason to Assume any of the information that's coming from that user that child namespace So it the only reason we would care about it in the parent is if there's a violation or a trigger or a trip of a rule That's in that parent namespace right, so if it's running in its own I don't know Mount namespace and It does something bad to a file there and we don't care about that namespace Mount namespace Who cares? Not not well the only reason we would care is if there was a violation of some kind of resource that they cared about in the parent namespace Like a file But if it's a different Mount namespace and it doesn't it isn't shared with that that File system space by the parent who cares Right, so if there's a rule if there's a rule in the parent that says I care about this file and Something happened to the file then we'll log it and The idea there is we want some more information about what that process was and oh we care about this file it affected this particular file system in this Parent namespace, but the activity actually happened in this container over here And here's the set of container ID so that we know that it happened in this thing over here So we would still want to log the spawning of new Containers, but not necessarily log the kind of the activity that happens in it that stuff would still be logged Yeah, I thought I saw another hand waving No, all right Where was I my slide here Right so namespace IDs versus container IDs Still have that decision ahead of us in terms of which way we want to go I'm favoring the namespace IDs, but that ends up with eight IDs added to each event record which potentially Yeah Potentially the thing is that the at the moment with the IDs We could simplify it so that it's down to a couple of digits and a hash could be Significantly longer, so I'm not sure we really win anything there and it's harder to read So Yeah, namespace IDs, we're looking at seven namespaces plus the device ID which could be relatively short integers right now the offset on the for the NS FS Inodes is something like I don't I think it's Half of max in so it's not particularly pretty Now so if we go to container IDs, then those I guess could be arbitrarily set by the Orchestrator orchestration management tool or they could be assigned incrementally by Just serially from boot In which case they would be relatively small But I guess they could be large if you've got huge numbers of containers spawning and being killed off constantly And again the question of needing some orchestration tools needing the I guess Develop the higher-level tools to be able to map and track all of the activity that's going on So any questions everybody happy? Yeah, you wouldn't inherit rules from the parent namespace once you start up a new audit daemon you would Put in place the rules that you are interested in or care about if if host B has somehow different policy In the namespace that is spawning the namespace then that's up to the orchestration tool to manage that stuff I don't know why the orchestrator would have a different set of rules, but it could Yeah, anyway, all right any questions great, so There we go. I'm RGB at red hat comm The litics audit mailing list would be the place to be able to discuss this stuff once we start getting a bit more serious about it, then there may be some spillover into the containers mailing lists and There'll be certainly some stuff that shows up in LKML There's the URL to subscribe to the mailing list, but if There is any useful comments or patches or that kind of thing They will they will be accepted. They won't be rejected if they're if they look reasonable to the list maintainer and upstream audit We've recently migrated over to github and so all of our audit stuff is in there There's sub projects for the kernel for user space, which is still currently managed on Steve grubbs SVN, but we're migrating over to github soon and then we've got a documentation Repository as well as a test suite repository, so there it is


is December 18th, 2014. And on this day, we are shipping to UCLA in California the archive of our grandparents, Willard and Barbara Morgan. And together for five years, we worked on organizing and finding an institution for the archive. Okay, we're waiting for the Big FedEx direct service truck. We have Janet's the lead driver. They're gonna go 24 hours a day leaving. They're gonna be in UCLA on Monday morning, sleeping and driving the whole way. And we were pumped. Barbara Morgan was most famous for the photographs that she took of Martha Graham and numerous other dancers such as Doris Humphrey, Pearl Premis, Eric Hawkins and so on. It was right during the beginning of modern dance and her iconic images really took modern dance itself into a whole new level. I think it was her painting background that made a huge difference in how she was able to turn photography into an art form. This was also the time when they went out into the Southwest every single summer for many years. And while out there, Willard Morgan took the Leica camera and he would climb up into these cliff dwellings and other places where you couldn't take the large cameras, and he could show that you could take a small 35 millimeter camera into places that you would never be able to go and take pictures with any other equipment. Eli's gave him a job offer with a letter which they quickly accepted to travel to New York and for Willard to help promote that format and basically become its main cheerleader, really showing how it can be used and promoting this whole new format that really wasn't being taken seriously. And he quickly grew it dramatically and then Barbara had her own art studio nearby in the city and for photography as well as painting and wood blocks. And in 1935, she met Martha Graham and that started her long relationship with her as well as photograph and modern dance from 1935 through 44, I believe. And so the importance of mythology, which Barbara Morgan really got very immersed in when, during those initial years in the Southwest, and she took that through her photography of Martha Graham and noticed, you know, that Martha Graham was inspired by these same themes as well. See some more of these very energetic and colorful watercolors. And here's some of the earlier wood blocks that she did in California. And this is after their Southwest travels and her incredible appreciation of the Native Americans. And as we really began to research the archive and learn more about the UCLA years, the Southern California piece, the Neutra piece and Willard's incredible ability to just zero in what was new and important and whatever was going to broadcast deep into the future. It was 35 millimeter photography, steel houses, the impact of the car on architecture and all of this in this world of Southern California modernism. I think we all feel that that's really going home, that that's where we wanted it to go from the beginning because I think we know that's where grandma would want it to go, Barbara and Willard. So that feels spiritually, artistically, creatively, intellectually, absolutely right. Makes more sense now, probably more than ever the last five or six years because a lot more of what we've been learning ourselves and reading and being part of is much more focused on the whole Los Angeles area. Now really the origins in early time is certainly becoming more important about how it affected everything else. So it makes a lot of sense. We're happy.


Let's do a quick review of the main ideas of section 4.3 on the definite integral. So the last couple of sections we have been considering the question of how to find the distance traveled by a moving object if we know its velocity function. One way to answer this is with a Riemann sum, which involves subdividing the time interval, sampling a point like the left or right endpoint from each subinterval, making a rectangle with each point, finding the area of each rectangle and then adding up all those areas. One of the things you probably noticed is that a Riemann sum with a single big rectangle is easy to set up, but it's a terrible estimate in all but the most trivial of cases. On the other hand, if we sample more frequently and use a Riemann sum with a large number of rectangles, then this is more computationally intensive. We have more work to do, but we can see that we're going to get a much better estimate. We get more rectangles by increasing the number of subdivisions of the time interval. We denoted that number by n. So as n increases without bound, the Riemann sum gets better and better as an estimate. Therefore, the limit of this Riemann sum as n goes to infinity would be a quote unquote perfect estimate. In other words, it would be the exact value of the area under the velocity curve, otherwise known as the exact value of distance traveled. This limit of a Riemann sum is what we call the definite integral of the function f on the interval from a to b. We denote it here with the symbol, which is supposed to be evocative of an elongated s for some.  Finding out the value of a definite integral is called evaluating the integral. So how do we evaluate a definite integral? It looks as though evaluating a definite integral involves evaluating a limit. But in fact, in some cases, evaluating an integral is quite simple if the graph is highly geometric. For example, if the graph of f of x is composed of line segments and circles, then the definite integral can be evaluated exactly using geometry formulas, because the value of the integral is the exact value of the area between the graph of f and the x-axis. Elsewhere in this section, we discuss some basic integral properties, such as the definite integral from a to itself is zero. A definite integral can be split up along the interval we are integrating over. And we have a constant multiple rule for definite integrals and a sum rule for integrals. Finally, we introduce the notion of the average value of a function on the interval from a to b, which is defined to be the definite integral on a b divided by the length of the interval. This is not the same as a statistical average because f is not a discrete set of disconnected data points, but rather a continuous function that is in constant motion over the interval from a to b. So basic stats won't help us find an average, but the integral can do it.


French President Emmanuel Macron on Saturday called Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky's visit to Japan for the group of seven summit a game-changer, as the two met for talks on the sidelines of the event. I think this is a unique opportunity to have exchanges with a lot of countries from the South and express your situation, express a message and share a view. I do believe it can be a game-changer, Macron said. Macron added that France will be with Ukraine to the very end. Zelensky met with British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak, Italian PM Georgia Maloney and Indian PM Narendra Modi earlier in the day and is scheduled to meet with other G7 leaders as he continues his call for support against Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The Ukrainian President's attendance at the G7 summit in Hiroshima, the first city to suffer a nuclear attack, put in sharp relief Western concerns over the nuclear threat posed by Moscow. I think this is really, really very, very important. I will share with you our meetings yesterday which have been very important, for us it is very important to involve to this formula as much as possible countries and I'm happy that there are very positive signals.