Atomic physics is well aware of the vast research contribution Steve Manton has made to this field, but today we have the opportunity to discuss the results with him, and he will be making a presentation on photoanization of free and confined atoms in the recent times. Steve. Thank you. I have to give a disclaimer to begin with. I found this presentation and put it together about seven o'clock this morning, so it may be a little bit rough, because I hadn't had time to go through it as much as I would have liked to before making the presentation. In any case, what I'm going to talk about today is, as the title suggests, some relatively recent results in the area of photoabsorption by a number of different kinds of targets, and you know, it will not be an exhaustive study, but I will try to be representative, give you representative results in various areas. Now to begin with, up until probably the 1960s, it was thought that photoabsorption, photoanization of atoms was pretty much a one electron process, and there may have been correlations that did a little, but they weren't terribly, terribly important. This turned out not to be true, and over the years we have found all sorts of interesting things which occur owing to the fact that the world is not a single particle world. Wave functions are not single particle wave functions, but really, really do include many body correlations. Evaluation is just a general term we use to say that the electrons of an atom or molecule or solid or anything do not move independently, but they are correlated with each other, thus the term correlation. Okay, to begin with, that's what this says. I said it in other words, it's not a one electron process, and this correlation could take many different forms, you can be in the, remember to calculate photoanization you have an initial state wave function, and a final state wave function, and you'll take an integral with something in the middle. Something in the middle is general, the initial state wave function, the final state wave function have to do with the particular case you're dealing with. All right, now, take a look at this. In the final continuum state wave function, correlation or configuration interaction generally goes under the rubric of inter-channel coupling. One of the reasons we use that term, which is really sexy, it sounds like something very, very special, and it confuses experimentalists, which is always good. The essence of this is that when you have degenerate channels, what I mean by degenerate channel is when you could have photoanization from more than one sub-shell at a given energy, you know, at high energy, you can get all the different sub-shells. Well, it turns out that due to this, what is called inter-channel coupling, if you have a channel with a large cross-section, and a little of it is mixed in with another channel, with a weak channel, it can make a big change. The other way doesn't do anything. You mix a little of a weak channel with something as strong, you know, it's like if you have something weighing a thousand pounds or something weighing one pound, and you get a tenth of a percent mixing, well, a tenth of a percent, a thousand pounds is one pound, it'll double the one pound weight, a tenth of a percent of the one pound added to the thousand ain't going to do nothing. So, this is kind of the idea of this. And what has been found, for example, at high energies, this can actually change the asymptotic form of the wave function, of the, not the wave function of the cross-section. It turns out in the single particle model, you get one asymptotic form, and when you put in inter-channel coupling, it just changes in many of the channels. The details I don't want to go into right now. Another thing that happens, and this is interesting, this is a calculation for the photoionization of krypton in the range, you can say, about 600 to 1200 eV. The thresholds of these, 3S, 3T and 3V, are several hundred eV. And this is really well, well above threshold. By the way, up until this work was done, it was thought that, well, there are correlation effects, but they're mostly around thresholds. This is not around threshold. This is very high above threshold. And look at what happens. We have, look at around 600. We have these dashed lines. These dashed lines are essentially the single particle model. But when we put in this inter-channel coupling, look at what happens. With the biggest one, nothing. With the one that's the middle-sized one, something. And the smallest one, a lot. And this just continues on. And look what happens here. When you go up to high energy, high-ish energy, this one is the biggest one. And it doesn't change. These two change. This is a consequence of what we call inter-channel coupling. And I guess I don't have it in this slide, but there's also experiment. And while the experiment isn't perfect, it does a pretty good job. But in every case, the solid line is closer to experiment than the dashed line, showing that we have some idea what we're doing. Oh, this is a nice one. This is, instead of the cross-section, it's the so-called angular distribution parameter beta. This was kind of cool. Because the independent particle model gives this. The coupled model gives this. Don't worry about all the variations there. And this is experiment. As you can see, when you put in the inter-channel coupling, every point is within error bars of the experiment. And this led to some consternation. When we submitted this as a paper, we had a big fight. We were right, but we lost anyway. Because there had been some earlier experiments that basically had been misinterpreted because they thought things were single particle. However, we also looked at the measurement of the cross-sections of the... See, at this energy, you can have the 2s and the 2p of neon. By the way, this is neon. I should have mentioned that. And we're well, well above threshold. Threshold, the neon for the 2p is about 0, 20, Rdv, and for the 2s is about 40dv. And here we're talking about a kilovolt, 1,000dv. We know we need a threshold. So what we looked at then was the ratio of the two cross-sections, the 2p and the 2s cross-sections. Now, from an experimental point of view, this is a very good thing to do because many of the experimental errors are canceled out that way when you just take a ratio of two cross-sections. And here's what we got. This is the ratio. The solid line is our calculation, and these are the experimental points. And all of these experimental points were done before the experiment, before the calculation. And the experiment said, OK, if you think you're so smart, we're going to measure a point and we're going to do a really, really good job of it and get tiny error bars. That's that one right here. That was done after the calculation. That was a really, really good calculation. In other words, all these equations that we write on the board and things, they really work if you do them right. OK, however, now we have found something new. This is in palladium. It says so right here, pd. One of the things you learn in this business, if you're in it long enough, you learn where all the chemical symbols mean. It's something. And here's what we found. In this case, this is where the two p-thresholds are. That's a different kind of notation. It's called x-ray notation. And we have two of them because now these are deep. Look, 3.2, 3.3 kilovolts. And relativity is important here. So the spin orbit effect is really, really large and you get rather than a single two p level, you get the two p one half and the two p three halves. That's what three halves and one half, what these are. And the difference is almost 200 EV. That's a big spin orbit splitting. You have to remember that the spin orbit splitting goes as z to the fourth. There's a z in it from the nuclear charge. And then there's another z cubed that comes from the one over r cubed in it. So z to the fourth. So the effect of z for a two p in palladium is really large. And to the fourth, that makes it really big. So, but look at what we find. We find that in the 3d cross section, due to this inter-channel coupling, we get actual structure, significant structure. And when we leave out the two p, we don't put in coupling with it, we get this. So not only do we get a change in magnitude. By the way, I didn't show the two p cross sections here, but they're much bigger. They're well above the ceiling here. So not only do we get a change of magnitude, like we saw in an earlier slide, but we also get structure. Yes, I'm sorry. Because there was an experiment done in silver, which is the next element. Show that in a moment. This is the experiment along with the theory. This is the actual experimental results. We figured that move changing z by one for such an inner shell wouldn't matter much. And the experiment was only relative, so it had to be normalized at one point. But as you see, the agreement is really awfully good. But to do better, again, we take the ratio of the two channels. And this is it. This is the ratio. So here, nothing is normalized to anything else. That's a pretty remarkable agreement. In other words, we're pretty sure we understand what's going on. Because again, there's nothing normalized to anything else here. Actually, how we got to this was a funny story. I was at a conference, and I gave a talk that included something about inter-channel coupling. And after the talk, one of the people at the conference talked to me. He said he had some experimental results to show me and asked me if I understood them. And he showed me the results, and I said, yes, I understand them, and we can do that. And then we did it. Actually, the calculations were done here.  And OK, enough about that. What about ions? Free ions. And here, we are aimed at calculations that approach exactness. And owing to the fact that there are really good possibilities for doing experiment now, there's been a big push to do really good calculations on ions, on the photoionization of ions. See, ordinarily, it's hard to get positive ions here because they don't remain around very long. Let's see what we get here. This is scandium. Actually, scandium double plus. Why are we interested in scandium double plus? How on earth did we pick something like this? Well, it is the simplest ionic system that has an open D-shell. The structure of this is argon plus a 3D electron. What turns out that once you get D-electrons there in open shells, it becomes a far more difficult calculation. Having been involved in the calculation, I can tell you, it's really difficult. Anyway, here's our results. This is non-relativistic, this is relativistic, and this is experiment. As you can see, the agreement isn't bad. You see what relativity does. Here you have a single resonance that breaks into two and you really do have two. The agreement isn't perfect, but it's pretty good. We think we have a pretty good handle on how things work here. I'm not going to go into detail about the calculation, but this was a relativistic R-matrix calculation. We did some... This is the next one in the isoelectronic sequence. Again, argon plus a single electron. Let's see now. Trying to remember which is experiment and which is theory. I believe this is theory, this experiment, and what's this? That was contaminants. That's why we didn't see it in the theory. Anyway, so you get the idea, and then we went on to a whole bunch of different ones. They just get very messy. I'm going to... Oops, go back here. That's enough of that. All right, another thing. Up until relatively recently, it had been taken as gospel that for relatively low energies, the dipole approximation was essentially perfect. You didn't have to worry about anything else. Turns out that's not true. There are many examples of non-dipole effects being important at low energy. However, not in the total cross-section, but in angular distributions. And here's an example for magnesium, 3S. And the example is interesting because in the dipole channel, which is called E1, you have what is called the Cooper minimum. It goes down to a very low cross-section. And in that region, you see the E2, the quadrupole cross-section, which is really very small, right around here it gets larger. That has really interesting consequences. That's a close-up. You see, the photoelectron angular distribution when you include the next order looks something like this. The red and the violet are the non-dipole part. So if you don't have dipole, if you don't have just dipole, you just have beta, 1 plus beta times P2. That's the second Legendre polynomial. And the rest of this drops out. So as you can see, you would only get a dependence on theta, theta being the angle that the photoelectron direction makes with the polarization. But here, you get that and phi, the angle that it makes with the photon direction as well. And what we find then is just to give you an idea. Don't worry about that. Instead of a simple sine squared, a sine squared theta, but it's b cosine squared theta distribution, you get something very, very complicated as a function of theta as a function. I mean, clearly it's not constant as a function of phi, function of theta. You get a really, really complicated angular distribution. Another thing that has been of interest lately, about 20 years ago, Buckminster Fullerene was discovered. The C60 that was shaped like a soccer ball was also shaped like a geodesic. Geodesic is a kind of structure. And it got its name from an architect whose name was Buckminster Fuller, who designed buildings like that. And so they are not exactly but close to being circular. They are called Fullerene's Bucky Balls and some other things as well. The actual full name is Buckminster Fullerene. Okay, not only can you create these structures, but you can put things inside of them. You can confine atoms inside. And this has been done experimentally. And okay, you can ask yourself, how does this affect the property of the atoms? Or another way to think about this is, if we put the atoms in there and it changes the properties, are this system, it's actually a molecule I guess, is it useful for anything? The answer is maybe. For example, people have talked about using a structure like this for drug delivery to a specific location by putting it inside the Bucky Ball and putting something at the location that will dissolve the Bucky Ball. And so the shell keeps the drug from interacting anywhere else other than the location where you want it. And you can imagine how this would be useful for something like chemotherapy. I don't know if you know exactly how chemotherapy works, but chemotherapy is basically poison. And the idea of it is it is supposed to be used to kill the tumor before it kills the patient, but it's close very often. If you can get it directed to the tumor and not to the rest of the patient, that would be really good for the patient. Not so good for the tumor, but good for the patient. But really chemotherapy is just poison. And we hope that it's more toxic to the tumor than to the person, because there's no way to, at present, to really make sure that it works there. The human system being what it is. I mean, think of it.  You take an aspirin. It goes to your stomach. How does that work? You know, it works everywhere. You would like to get something directly to your head, but there were no good outlets. Anyway, so that's one possible application. So what we're interested in now is how the existence of a cage around an atom changes its properties. And as you can see, this is a relatively complicated system. I mean, if we take the ordinary one, the one that's most common is C60. So to do this calculation, you have 61 atoms. That seems really hard. So you make some approximations. First of all, we work with systems where the atom is located in the center. So we maintain spherical symmetry. Although the C60 is not exactly symmetric, it's very close. Not exactly spherical, but it's pretty close. Now the first thing that we found was confinement resonances in the photoionization cross-section when you put something in there. And the physical explanation is real simple. You can have the photoelectron going right out when it's ionized by radiation, or it can go backwards, hit the wall, and then go out. So you have two different waves going out. Actually, you get lots of them, and they interfere. And the interference is based on the actual geometry of the situation. So actually, from the interferences, you can learn something about the geometry. And we've done numerous calculations of this sort of thing. And here's an example. This is in xenon 4D, and the dashed line is the free atom, and the solid line is what we think it actually is inside a fullerine making a model of the C60, and the dotted line is a very simple model, which we think is wrong. But anyway, just to give you an idea, this is what these confinement oscillations look like, and they are ubiquitous. We find them everywhere. We find them in data, in the angular distribution parameter. Here, this is for neon 2p, and the dashed line, or it's actually a dotted line, I guess, is for the free atom, and you see our calculation for neon at C60. It bounces around. It oscillates, or resonates, whatever you'd like. Now, one can ask, what happens if you move off-center? Well, here, without going into the detailed calculations, you can guess, because as long as you're on the center, then the phase difference is the same no matter which way you go. But if you're off-center, you get one phase here, but if you're going further here, you get a different phase. So probably this confinement oscillation business would get much less, and in fact it does. You've got to look at this carefully. Here, the solid line is basically at the center, and this, I don't know what color, the violet, it's well off the center, you see. It's almost gone. It's just basically the geometry of the situation. So we have some idea what happens if it's off-center. So if you do an experiment, and you see these oscillations, you know it's pretty much close to the center. So here's an experiment that was done. This is in xenon 4D, and as you can see, you really do see these oscillations. They are actually larger than the error bars. There's a new experiment that has smaller error bars that also sees this. So it really does exist, and this is one of the phenomena that was predicted well before it was measured. All right, moving right along. C60 is not the only fullerine, and as you can see here, we show a series of calculations of argon in C60 and argon in C240. You see the oscillations differ. By the way, this is the 1s of argon. The reason we took the 1s is 1s of argon is really, really tiny. It doesn't know about the wall around it. So everything you are seeing here is due to the final state. Nothing because the initial state doesn't change. And that's why we picked this calculation to do so we could focus on just as what is happening in the final state. And you see with the 240, you get more. With 540, you get still more in the way of these oscillations. And if you get a really big fullerine, you can not only put an atom inside, but you can put another fullerine inside. And that's where the bottom two curves are. You have argon in C60 in C240, and the bottom we have argon in C60 in C240 in C540. All of these are possible, at least in principle, and this is the kind of things our relatively simple calculations show. However, oh, let's not talk about that. In the calculations that I've just shown you, the electrons of the fullerine itself are considered inert. They're just sitting there, and it's just the atomic electrons that see a different potential. What about, is it possible to have interactions between the atomic electrons and the shell electrons? The answer is yes. But in order to do that, we have to consider all of them. And so we have a, use a more accurate model of the system, and we treat the system in the following way. We smear out the, you see the carbon atoms, they have two S and two P electrons that are relatively weakly bound, and then they have one S electron that are bound by about 300 eV, so they're very different. So what we do, we consider the fullerine as a bunch of carbon plus fours, that is carbon nuclei with the one S is still there, so the net charge is just plus four, and we take all of the other electrons and assume they're delocalized. That's 240 electrons there. And then we take the positive charge, and rather than having 60 points, we smear it out. It's called Jellium. That's from the solid state physics. It's an approximation to be sure, but it's easier to solve. So this is a Jellium approximation. And all sorts of things happen.  Well then, I would be doing a calculation of the 240 electrons of the C60 plus the 54 electrons of the xenon, which is 294 electrons. That's a big, messy calculation. And so I have to do some approximation. And the approximation that I do is called the time-dependent local density approximation. And, you know, I have to... So what I have here, then, is the atomic potential plus a well representing the shell potential. And that's here. Atomic potential and a well potential. And then I do the calculation for those 294 electrons in this potential. It gets messy. One of the things we see, supposing you have an atomic level that is bound by some energy here. Supposing you have a well level that's also bound by some energy here. And then you need degenerate. What happens? Well, the degenerate perturbation theory tells me what happens. I'm going to get a wave function that's a linear combination of the two. And that's exactly what we see. This is the 5s of free xenon. However, in here, it is mixed. And I get two wave functions, one that looks like this and the other that looks like this. In other words, positive and negative mixing of this wave function and this one. This is an atomic wave function. This is a shell wave function. And they mix. This is called hybridization. The molecular physicists knew about it for years. Not in this particular case. I didn't know about it, though. Now, remember, when doing photoionization, this would be my initial state. If I have a very different initial state, I'm going to get a very different cross-section. That's the importance of hybridization. It changes things very greatly. For example, this black line, solid black line, I want you to focus on that. That is the 5s of xenon, free atom. This is one of the combined levels that looks like this. Now, you say, well, it's not terribly different. Yes, it is. This is a logarithmic scale, just as much as a factor of 10. It completely changes the cross-section. There's no relation at all. So hybridization, which the simple model doesn't take into account, is very, very important. That's what we find. This is something that should be noted. It's also interesting. The 5p of xenon is not hybridized. But look at what we find. This is the 5p of free xenon. This is the cross-section of free C-60. Again, this is a factor of 100. It's about 100 times larger. Remember what we talked about in the first example I showed? Not in this business, with free atoms. If you have a cross-section, which is degenerate with a much larger cross-section, you can get very strong inter-channel coupling. That's what happens here. Look at this. This yellow, kind of a nice yellow, kind of mustard, I think. Not just yellow. Look what happens to the 5p. Owing to this inter-channel coupling, the cross-section goes from about 50 to about, what, 800 or so. It increases by about an order of magnitude because it mixed with something that's really very large. Little piece of that. So what we find is very significant inter-channel coupling here. There is something called a sum rule, which says that the integral over the cross-section, suitably scaled, should be the number of electrons in that state. So 5p should be about 6. And this comes, if I integrate this over this particular range, actually you need to integrate out to infinity, but just over that range, you get about 545 in neon, in xenon. Here, in this case, with the inter-channel coupling, you get something like 50. In other words, strength from the shell is transferred for some reason to the atom. And furthermore, when the cross-section for the shell goes down and is no longer much larger, you see, you get pretty much the same cross-section, except for these confinement oscillations. So this makes a consistent picture here. And however, these are non-trivial calculations. These require a lot. What comes next? Do I remember? You see, you remember they were too different. You know, when you had the atomic level and the shell level, it mixed into two different cross-sections, into two different states. So two different cross-sections were too messy to show all of them on previous slides. This one is the other one. Looks like this. Anyway, this is the cross-section for the free C60. But you get all sorts of interesting phenomenology here. And that's about it. That gives you sort of a flavor of the kinds of things that we have been doing and the kinds of things that we are capable of doing. Now, I glossed over the details of the calculation. A lot of them took a long time and are very messy, but they can be done.  You know, what experiments to do, what might be interesting. Because usually experiment comes first, not always. Sometimes we predict things first. And I will stop here and thank you for that. Thank you for your attention.


I'm your host man. I'm Tyler and I'm Steve and I'm Josh. That's the best one we've ever done Awesome boys. Time for us to stop. No, that took too long We're out of time for today guys. Let me put my watch on. I've already got it started boys I'm gonna do 49 minutes to make him late Just to be a pitch about it. All right. Welcome to Linuxcast. We talk about Linux-y things That's what we do and like I said, like you guys said, we are apparently on a clock, but That's never stopped us before So welcome to everybody who was watching us live. You can do so every Saturday at three o'clock p.m. Eastern time We always start around that time. It's never too late, we don't think we ever started early If we ever started early, I'll let you know But you can head on over to the Linuxcast YouTube channel, which is youtube.com slash Linuxcast and that's where you'll find the live show and can't catch us live We do pull the live stream down right immediately after I didn't last week But I'm gonna stick with that because it did just not work But the edited version will go up afterwards and you guys can catch there They'll have timestamps and be edited in pretty and all that stuff. Also You can find the audio version somewhere So uh now that all that housekeeping is out of the way if you're watching us live leave a thumbs up It really helped the channel. All right. So before we jump into the main topic, which is steve's this week We're going to do a lightning round Of what we've done this weekend open source. So tyler quickly What have you been up to this week in open source other than failing at every single distro people have paid you to try And well, I look I can't gloss over it, but I'll be quick. Okay. I was paid exorbitant amount some money by a couple of members of my community to check out open man triva And then open man triva would not work And I'm not going to get into any of the details because it doesn't matter because people will argue and bicker Over like whether or not I should have fixed it or whatever, but that didn't work I tried magia because it is You know in the same vein as open man triva That one had just the worst mirrors I have ever seen in my entire life and they didn't even function for me Even though they were technically supposed to be available and up and running, but whatever So couldn't get that running Then I install open suze a leap which let's Kind of just kind of say this for a second when you go to open suze's website They don't tell you that they're discontinuing leap If they do it was it's not in like a big bold letter. It's like hey, by the way, don't mess don't download this. It's It's literally gone. It's not that we're not focusing on it at all. So it broke 58 percent during the install just stopped for forever. I literally kept it running for like an hour and a half It did nothing. It was completely frozen. So Then the next morning I try installing open suze a tumbleweed and the installer tells me That the net install is missing something even though it pulls it down from the internet I don't know if it gave me an incursus screen, which I didn't think it was even supposed to be incursus But told me the installer was broken I tried redoing the installer with a different, you know, uh, usb maker I think I used dd the first time that I used blina etcher did the same thing. So Yeah, uh, I'm on arch. That's what I've been doing That's about it. All right skill issue thief What have you been up to this week in open source? All right, this is going to be a quick one I've been working on zero linux and the other thing well, it's going to be the part of the Today's subject. So I'm not going to mention it here So I'm just going to say been working on zero linux ironing things out and telomora has got updated I had to figure things out there And that's it. Doesn't calamaris get updated like every week It gets updated every hour of every day No, but those are those are development updates not final update Gotcha So I but I I used to dirty build calamaris Meaning that I used to build with against every commit that gets pushed every day But now I don't do that anymore because I learned that the hard way you do that You're gonna hit wall Good luck recovering So I stopped doing that now we're at calamaris 3.3 alpha thick. All right, josh. What have you been up to? I haven't been doing anything with open source this week other than you know testing out red hat kernels for them But instead I've actually been delving into another realm of my of my bad hobbies And I have discovered the the newfound talent of painting miniatures For uh war games So I've got this little dwarf right here I've got this uh little barbarian guy that I that I might have used a little bit too much wash on so he looks extremely dirty And then I've got this little dragon That I spent way too much time trying to make sure that you know He's got a nice red on him because I uh over thin my paint just a little bit too much He's got like five layers of red on him right now Uh a verified nerd right there guys. I don't know if you guys see like Here's my thing. I was going I was going to joke about it at first and then he pulled out that dragon And I was like, okay, that looks pretty sick.  Hold on put that closer to the camera dude. Oh this one. Yeah that Camera focus please wait. Hold on. Are you 3d printing all of these? No, I actually have a friend That's 3d printing. So he 3d printed this one and uh, he actually 3d printed five different ones for me. Let's see This is actually pretty cool. Wait, hold on and you and you're just painting them or like are y'all Yeah, I'm painting them But are y'all giving them back and forth between each other like you paint and keep some he and he and he gets some Yeah, pretty much but that's pretty cool. Basically what these are so I don't play warhammer specifically. I play One page rules, which is a variant rule set that you can use warhammer miniatures for And they have their own line of miniatures. That's what these guys are. These are robot legion guys And the benefit that one page rules gives is that they is that they will actually sell you stl files for 3d printers You know me being the fancy business owner and everything I might have sent them an email going like, hey I can I can make a mold for you guys that way, you know, we can get some actual durable minis They haven't responded yet. I'm just trying to make a sale. Just trying to make a sale Well, hey, hey, dude This sounds like a good idea. All right, so I Wrote a python program So as I think I talked about it last week where I was told you guys I was getting into a little bit of retro gaming.  So I downloaded Gigabytes upon gigabytes of games that I will never Ever play because I mean there's like I don't know I downloaded all the gameboy and gameboy color ones to begin with and there's like, I don't know probably How much data are we talking about? The game the gameboy and gameboy colors was about two gigabytes in total And it was like over a thousand games So they're they're all only about like a four or five six kilobytes apiece to be honest with you They're not very big now I was looking into downloading like all the ps3 games or the ps2 games and some of those are gigabytes in size And that that was beyond my data cap limits. So I couldn't do that. I wanted to but I didn't but anyways, that's what I did I wrote when honestly, it's one of my first complex python scripts that I've written on my own and I was pretty proud of it because it actually worked So there I'm learning python and actually have a script to show for it. I didn't actually share it with anybody because I don't want I think I've skirted the legalities of that quite enough, but Yeah, anyways, that's what I did this week. So That's our weekend open source and and dnd and whatever josh. It is doing you tell. I'm not really a true nerd I don't know any of that stuff Anyways, steve you had the the topic this week. So my friend What are we talking about? Something you are going to love this week. We are going to be talking about containers the power I love I love that most of your body language right now comes from like someone at a revival having way too good of a time I'm having such a great time The container the the containers goes to speaking to you right now. I feel it I feel it preach brother You can play you can blame matt for this. This is your brain. I love where containers is is all on matt I'll take the blame. I was like distro box I'm on arch. I don't need no stinking distro box I need something better So I started hunting and hunting and hunting and I discovered Something called kaza wet because I wanted something I can install on my system without having to reinstall my system Like I didn't want something that managed containers as an os that I had to install So I installed kaza os. I talked about it last week as my thing of the week I kept digging into it and the more I dug into it the more I fell in love with it Now it has a caveat. It's a major caveat to those who care I don't care. So it's not a caveat for me So the caveat of kaza os is that it's http and they do not have plans for http So if you want to deploy it on something on your actual server, don't do it Don't use kaza os. You're something something similar, which is my thingy of the week I'll talk about it later for me. My my server is physically off so Me no care Me no gain offline. You mean offline like it's just on your local network No, yeah, it's offline and it's physically off because we turn off the power after midnight Oh, you mean like when you're not using it? Gotcha. Yeah, and when I'm not using it. So we don't pay extra or for the electricity bill, but so I don't care http or https I don't care the only the only problem The only time where that came became a problem is with volt warden or bit warden because bit warden Requires https since it encrypts everything. So some containers probably won't work, but I mean quite a few quite a few but not the I don't care I I just went back to normal bit warden hosted online, whatever But I cannot stress this enough. I have comic books. I have audiobooks I have music And I use containers to organize all that I use I tried calibrate calibrate is the way they did the container is via chasm And chasm is just a remote desktop kind of thing I don't like it So I didn't like calibrate the calibrate container. I like calibrate itself, but I just don't like the way they did the container I'm using something called I'm using something called Wait, hold on steve.  Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah, okay. Can I share my screen mat? Can you switch to so I can show Give me a second Man, it's like, oh god here goes my transforms Lord, that's exactly how what's happening And you know what? I'm glad that as usual steve is taking the longest and that's why we're going to be We can't even blame us. All right, I mean he brought it up. Come on. It's always steve It's his topic now. You can't you can't use that against him. Come on, man Okay, I'm trying to share right now. It's spinning spinning spinning Takes a minute to buffer because you know you happen to be in lebanon. Okay. Now it's working. All right It's a nice four by three screen If you want I can make it Okay So I'm using a stump for my for my comic books. So I just log in And you got my comic books I really Really, really, really love this like for example, I have This one a leaks. It's a it's a comic book. I used to read when I was younger So you got all the volumes multiple pages of volumes So it organized I can organize all my comic books and I have a lot of comic book series So that that program is a container that is installed Through inside kazo as yeah, I pulled this container From linux server and the best part is is when you click install and you don't find the application you want within this extremely long list They have a long list and you can add sort of third-party sources in here You just add source. It's like a repository. Basically. Have you tried using jellyfin? because I always said problems with jellyfin Yeah jellyfin. I don't I don't have a use for it. I have plex. So josh what you're saying So jellyfin does support audiobooks comic books and yeah, I know I know I just don't want I don't like to mix everything in a single app I'm that kind of person. That makes sense.  Engine x whatever But if it helps any of the developers call it engines Really? Yeah, so yep engine x is a community name Well, I learned something here today.  You need to paste the actual url Ah here pull engines latest here Okay, well you get the idea engines put it Here Oh, I don't know how to paste Okay, you remove that Engines latest and then you give it an icon you give it a You give it the ip address or your virtual domain and ports and you give it any settings that are indicated in the instructions over here And then you got yourself a container So it's basically like a portainer think about it like portainer stacks But you do it custom here like I have portainer here because I like Portainer click okay So I have 13 stacks because you know I need them So this is how you you do it You can do it either via portainer or you can do it directly via kaza os if you do it via portainer They will show as unknown containers. You have to convert them to and redeploy them So kaza os understand them, but it's the same thing So what I want to show you guys and it's gonna blow some people's minds Is when I click this one It's arch linux inside a container inside my browser I was waiting to see the zero linux. It's not zero It's not zero linux. It's just arch linux with zero. Is that what zero linux is? Well, yeah I think that's what we call checkmate Yeah, checkmate Well, uh, it's it's It's freaking you can run operating desk full desktop operating systems inside your browser and they're hosted on your machine They're not hosted somewhere online. You have no control over you have full control over this So you have fedora. You have ubuntu. You have arch you have various of course various implementations like One with gnome one with kde one, you know So I chose arch because arch so and this is Just a container And I organize my music with this one. I'm like, okay wizard of Oz. Okay It landed on my movie soundtracks zanadu Okay You have the metropolis soundtrack You're This is the origin This is the original one not the remade one by uh, no, I assumed that it was the original one given the artwork Yeah, it's not the one by vangallis. It's not the one by vangalli. No But anyway, uh, sorry music nerd here Yeah And this is the best part since I uh seen metropolis it's been a while. There's a lot of I love I love I love this film So What is it only showing the uh library? So these are my audiobooks for isek azimov Just have everything Yeah, I have every single one and if you want to look at the star wars one 148 Okay, that's just that's just wrong star trek all the way, bro um See, I mean like this does go this does go to show like how much you can't deal with containers But the biggest problem the biggest problem with people arguing against containers nowadays is people people are doing this thing with containers now where Like it would be kind of like if you went back like a hundred years ago and you gave like some Like a random dude in the middle of nowhere a flamethrower Like at first he's going to be like having so much fun that when he goes to make his steak later that night He's going to use the flamethrower instead of the you know Oven or us, you know, like a skillet like it goes to with every piece of software All right, Steve, can you stop streaming your podcast so I can get the or the screen so I can show everything back where it was Thank you your podcast. All right I tried to get I tried to get him to go longer because you know, we're only he's got half an hour I just looked at the clock. I just literally looked at the clock and I need to hurry with this one Yeah, this was just scratching the service I have pie hole as you saw if you didn't if you missed it just go back a little bit and you will see it I have pie hole and I got and when this comes exactly to the point that that zany brought up you give anyone something They might find Bad ways to use it. For example, I found questionable containers I'm I'm testing them but and they work and I like them but they're questionable like for example The first example is volt warden volt warden is a fork of bit warden that you can run locally as a container But it unlocks premium feature without you paying of bit warden. This is gray area I don't know what it is considered piracy. Whatever. It's not piracy at all. It's completely legal But and bit warden knows about volt warden like they are contributors to it. Oh, okay What about me tube where you can? Do something in youtube that is not allowed? Oh, technically that one is gray area Yeah, and spot yell where you can do the same thing on spotify But I mean, I don't think that was like that That wasn't my point that I was making like my point is that right now like a lot of a lot of the great things that containers can do is Kind of being muddied by the fact that there are also people out there who want to make Literally anything and everything a container like like I mean look being able to have containers that you know Manage other stuff that are able to be like, you know Used inside of a server and be able to like, you know be accessed anywhere That's cool. But also having like, I don't know nano be a snap or a container is a why like That serves no purpose To illustrate your point if you go to the linux server You will see containers that shouldn't exist like I showed you a lot Like I showed you on the on the podcast episode on the on the geeks episode that you lost Yeah Yeah But like I showed you there's the entire tea of the freaking amazon cdn if you combine all the containers that exist for amazon You can have your you can fork the the freaking if you had the hardware You can fork the the damn amazon cdns and everything ws and stuff I remember you scrolling through there do like the amount of amazon Containers is insane. There's hundreds of them so Your point is true. What I'm saying is you're you're correct. Josh. Go ahead. I disagree Because you know, I honestly think that some some things that are being packaged in container like, you know nano Can actually make sense Okay, because nano is part of the GNU core utils and on like say your your long-term release distributions You know like debbie and stable red hat linux Uh ubuntu's lts, which ubuntu lts is a little weird because they backport things all the time But for like those distros it actually does make sense for like nano to be packaged up up as like a Snap package because you know the snap package Staps snaps in general I actually have a fantastic support for a cli environment compared to like flat pack Mm-hmm Because snap kit snap depending on how it's packaged can actually have Permission to your root drive so you can run it with like sudo and be able to edit your configuration files and all that But the majority of people that actually use tools like nano or even vim Aren't working with like root privileges in like system-wide configuration files They're just working on local files within the user's home directory And they might be developing program writing some notes or whatever wait hold on so I don't need to Okay, I do need to cut you off But I just want to ask is your point going to be that snap is like Or you know some container formats Can and are not that bad for cli programs and therefore because No, uh, my my point is That it shouldn't matter and the reason why i'm using why i'm mentioning nano specifically as like the snap package Is because you know nano Doesn't update very often But when it does it's normally like a very big change Like the last update pushed like a lot of configuration changes that people were really excited for you know like syntax highlighting But the next change is coming in with like a built-in pull kit permissions That way you know you can save a file with root and it will prompt you for root privileges Because you forgot to call sudo with it and that's what we're going to do on the next one You know what I have just now realized what is happening right now What's that you think you're getting me?  Let's move on guys to like the main subject. Yeah container What the true power containers and why they are kind of a must have right? so I'm going to go ahead and start with the reason why Canonical created snaps because canonical was the very first one to make these universal packaging formats And snaps were the first at the time they were called click packages They were they were made for the ubuntu mobile operating system for their phones Now the reason why they came out was because the problem with linux packaging is the is Actually a setback for application developers So say like I want to write a piece of software, right? And it's a graphical piece of software that you can just launch on your desktop environment Like let's just say that I'm a savage and I write a web browser And it's like the world's greatest web browser and it can render YouTube videos with hardware acceleration out of the box No need to toggle any settings or anything and it is just wicked fast So I can post the code to github But in order for me to get that web browser into debian A debian packet I have to either become a debian package maintainer or a package maintainer has to pick it up and then and then it'll go through the Experimental branch into the unstable branch into the testing branch into the stable branch and who knows how long that's going to take I think the average Amount of time for a brand new pack piece of software make it into debian stable is an average of about six to seven years Let's just say that during that time I I package up this feature update And I really I pushed release into github well That package I already had and there's now a version of my software that's in in debian stable So now I've got these people opening issues on my github page saying that hey, there's a brand new release But I don't have this feature And I ask them what operating system are you using? Oh debian stable Well, that means That then I have to explain to that person how linux packaging works even though i'm not the one maintaining that package or potentially not that one Now that's going to happen for every single distribution that packages my software That's going to be debian. That's going to be fedora, which is upstream from red hat That's going to be like arch linux, which you know, they're savages Sometimes they just forget the update packages the gen 2 developers and all that and that's that's a general support issue That that I as a developer would have Whereas I can release packages myself, but then I had to write Uh, deb packages, which are secretly a pain pain in the butt if you've never written one before rpm packages Which have used a spec file and everything sip similar enough to arch linux package builds for arch linux separate rpm packages for open susa and and so on now or I can write A snap yaml manifest file or a flat pack manifest Or I can be a savage and compile it into an app image And it just works everywhere Theoretically, yeah, that's what that's why canonical Sponsored the creation of snaps And then because you know snaps have like their own set of issues red hat came out and created flat flat packs Not too long after and then a community response Spons came out with app images And those are the three universal packages that we have today And then very recently we've also had scripts that hook into tools like docker and podman To be able to run applications out of Dedicated containers that would be like your distro box and your toolbox. So that's generally what we're talking about today Yeah, so thank you for making it long josh I had to explain because I guarantee that there was going to be somebody sending an email going like what the heck are you guys talking about? Okay, thank you. I'm not so basically containers are very powerful But you have to be very careful on which containers you are using and which You want to deploy if you want to deploy them on an actual server Do not use something that doesn't support HTTPS But for me, I cannot live without them anymore. Thank you matt, but I I would recommend Many there are I'm not going to recommend. I'm just going to say there's a lot of container managers from portainer If you are knowledgeable enough and like to do things like like the advanced way there's simpler ones like kazaos but kazaos no HTTPS If you're like me, you don't care about HTTPS or HTTPS Then use kazaos. There's there's a lot of them out there, but When I discovered the amount of containers out there, I was like They were more powerful than I ever thought they were I was I always thought that matt was talking about distro box was the only thing out there and docker basically what kazaos is a front end for docker, but distro box Yeah, I know the use of installing containers via distro box is great because you can install whatever you want on your host system whereas in Something like kazaos you you have to use Your web browser to launch anything like for example matt installed vivaldi From arch from an arch container because the one from open suza had issues You cannot if you want to do it inside kazaos You're gonna end up with vivaldi inside vivaldi or vivaldi inside firefox You know, you know what I mean because you're running the container inside the browser You don't have to use things like kazaos or portainer to manage No, no, I'm not saying you have to I'm just saying it's a good way to manage your container But I mean you'd solve your problem of a container inside of container if you just ran the pod man of whatever you're doing well, technically Technically the way that the the way that kazaos and portainer are working is that they're not Is that the containers aren't actually running inside of those containers? What they are what they're doing is they're hooking a docker api that that's That's on your host system and tell and in telling docker Hey, spend this container up or stop this container or restart it or rebuild it That's really what they're doing. They're not actually running the containers inside the containers. All right So here's what I had to say about Containers overall I think that where this stuff is really going to become like Impressive is as more distros become immutable You're going to find more and more uses for containers things like distro box things like toolbox, you know, even going more base level things like docker and pod man and More and more applications are going to go that way and we've seen that like you're going to use Most distros have gone flat pack, but you're going to use flat packs and snaps the Question that I have for you guys just we still have 14 minutes and I just want to kind of talk about this for Do you guys think that there's comes a time where the vast majority of software is only provided by containers, so You won't be able to find a a ur package of whatever you will have to go to and get the containerized version of it No, like never like never I actually say that yes because there is already software packages where the official package Is only provided as a container such as you know bottles is only available as a flat pack Yeah, but you can still get bottles and other You can but you don't want to Well, isn't that the whole thing with the a u r in general now You know and then well There's also several a u r packages that i've seen off the top of my head You know like the bit water package where it's really just download the app image extract the app image throw it and slash off Yeah, but i mean app images are not secure That's that's not even the problem at all like You're still yours no matter what if like let's say you're only releasing as a flat pack Download the flat pack remove the cruft install the package like it needs to be on the system And boom like that that's already a thing with some packages as well that are just like you're saying released only Officially as a flat pack or whatever Now do I think that there's going to be a reality where down the line most people don't Want to use anything other than containers because that's what is official 99 of the time Yeah And that that future is Very very closely approaching the reason why it will happen. Yeah, the reason why I asked This question was because when I made my discer box video A few people got in there and said like this doesn't solve the problem of developers having to Make packages for every distro Thank you, josh, right and my response was I was like, I don't care like i'm not a developer That's not my problem to solve Maybe a selfish bitch way of looking at it true But the reason why I like distro boxes is because I can go to another distribution And grab a package that I need and then have it work on my main machine I don't have to worry about what base distro i'm using. I can just go get whatever package. That's the reason why I like discer box the main reason why but as I use it more and more often I can You know find other uses for it and and I have but it Doesn't Distro box itself isn't the solution that we're talking about when it comes What josh was basically saying right one package have it available everywhere, right? That's not what distro box is for It's for something different. It's more of a development environment thing That's what you're really supposed to be using it for but the the point I'm trying to make is that We have two Things that are kind of going on simultaneously. We have the thing that josh is talking about whereas it's more Four developers to solve that problem of having 12,000 different package formats And then you have go ahead As snaps flat packs and app images Just like any of the three or all of the three get more popular The less tools like distro box are going to be like desired I'm not going to say that they're ever going to be mandatory, but they will but they they are currently desired because you know Arch Linux's aor exists Same thing goes for like nix, but nix is also a bit of a different beast and how it and how it's intended to work too But it does fit into this containerized category as well But the the more that those formats become Become recognized and official because you know by official I mean that you know katie discover and gnome software Both have plugins for flat packs and snaps and just like george castro is saying in the chat Distro box is kind of just like a duct tape solution No, it's not a duct tape solution because you're not You are not exposing anything. Are you sure about that? Yeah, because there's nothing to expose if your system is secure Have you verified the container manifest just to see how open they are to the rest of your system? This distro box isn't meant to be It's distro box itself I know I know what this is. I was about to write it in chat. They're trying to delay it Not there. Josh is trying to delay this. Hey this stuff We need to get to like, you know Giving out all the good links getting to them thingies of the week So our boy steve can go and we can hit a world record On record times here and josh is trying to make it not happen. I've come to the conclusion that I don't like being rushed Okay If I wanted to be constrained to 40 minutes, I would have set that as a time limit But as it's my podcast screw you guys will go as long as I feel like going I Okay, okay. No, uh, you guys can go without me. I can just We'll see if we if we'd known part of the podcast we could have started early That's what we could have done But or you know mac could have had the time you were you weren't even home. You weren't even home I have my phone with me I could have rushed home. Anyways, it doesn't matter. Uh, fine. We'll we'll just stop there and talk about The thingies that we all hate Or I'm fine that I hate I mean, I saw that you got a new shirt. Yes Uh, if you want to join me in my hatred of nuggies, you can check out the shop. There is brand new. I hate nuggies t-shirt uh, and It's awesome. It's literally just a picture of the of your logo with chicken nuggets underneath it indeed it is Uh, it means that you love nuggies very well designed if you ask me Anyways, you can check that out at shop. That lens cast at work. By the way, but wait to get mine The reason why we say that is because We're moving on to the last part of the show And due to peer pressure We're talking about sorry guys. Sorry. I really apologize guys. I It's only this week You're fine. You're good, dude.  It's fine. Don't don't don't worry about me. It's fine So, uh, in the event you guys want to learn how to contact us. No, that's not where we're going yet You're you're not even doing it, right? We're not there.  No Are you with his head? Interrupt us mid topic I know Anyways, nuggies of the week that's what I like. I had a spiel was going to go into it, but it's great. It doesn't matter Uh, tyler, you're nuggie of the week. Please good lord Mine Mine I did I did a video kind of relating to it The way bar I I wanted to talk about when it comes to like Good bars I've been playing around with way bar and also poly bar. I've been helping someone use poly bar here recently Those two because I think they're kind of interchangeable poly bar if you're on x way bar You know if you're on wailand If you want really good bars and you're going tiley window manager It's a it's a great idea. Check them out I I I really like them and I also I'm just going to go ahead and not to put into chat, but I love how this nuggie section has completely derailed us for a second It wouldn't have I just whatever All right, uh Who's next steve? You're nuggie of the week. Please my nuggie of uh of the week is you go You know host you know host is exactly what I don't like but I am I selected it as a thing of the week because it does the containers It seems more like an operating system than an it's an operating system. That's let me explain. Let me explain It's based on debian. It's running debian But it has you know host the software on top. So when you install it it runs you know host the software So, uh, it's a it's a container manager But as an os and it has its own reverse proxy enabled by default and everything Nginx or whatever you want to call it. So htps is enabled You can use it securely and safely and you have access to the same exact containers if not more Then cazaos and linux server and all these combined And their containers are more up to date than the linux server because on the next server I found containers that haven't been updated in six years So, you know host is a is a more professional way of managing containers So think about cazaos, but but as an operating system with htps support. It's amazing I uh, I recommend it for those who really want to go above and beyond and have an actual server Mine is not a server. Mine is just a desktop running zero linux with cazaos on top But I mean that's basically server is too Well, yeah Yeah, but you know what I mean This is recommended for those really really who want to go above and beyond And if they have a computer to spare and set up as a server Go that route and it even has Something that everybody is talking about these days net boot xyz So you can even set up net boot xyz So it's if you think about it as ventoi on a net via network instead of having usb You have your isos we on a hard drive on a network. You can boot those isos or you can boot from online images Well, I got confused. So what's the thingy of the week or nuggy of the week? Nuggy of the week is you know host You know host you know host org All right, josh your thingy of the week or your nuggy of the week, please My nuggy of the week has to deal with news from yesterday because linux kernel 6.6 reached lts Which means that drivers for this is actually going to be native into the linux kernel Which means that I can finally recommend intel arc gpus for for the masses as soon as you know Uh districts start shipping the new lts kernel. Yeah. All right. So yeah, uh, you thought you thought AMD cards had amazing driver support on the linux You haven't seen intel yet You just haven't wait five years until they're actually, you know Prevalent. All right. So, uh, my thingy of the week is yazzy yazzy. It is a terminal file manager And it is very speedy. So it's basically ranger But not written in python and it just works Really really well. Unfortunately, it's not in a lot of repositories. So you'll either have to build it or do what I did and download it from distro box And export it to your machine that way it works Fantastically well. It's really good. It has image support built in just like ranger and stuff like that. So, uh, it's I'm still messing around with the configuration file. So I can't I can't really tell you if the Configuration files is better or worse. Yeah, I'm still kind of getting my head around it But overall it's been it's been Pretty good. So that's my nuggy of the week. So That is it for this Lightning round of a of a podcast. Are we sorry that we kind of rushed it? But I didn't know we were going to do that Otherwise we I would have been more prepared But anyways, if you want to get in contact with us, you can do so in any number of ways The probably the best way is head on over to the website. That's the linuxcast.org there You'll find previous episodes All the way back to season one and I know that the most recent episodes haven't been put up there I'm still working on changing some things up that that'll get solved. Hopefully this week You can also find previous blog posts that I've posted there as well. You can follow josh on Find all of his contact information by heading on over to tenlyj.com slash contact Steve is on mastodon. He's at faucedon.org slash Zero linux, right? I think I'm doing this for memory zero with an x not with a z Tyler has a youtube channel where he's actually been posting videos and live streaming like he actually knows what he's doing. It's really Freaking me out like go back to whatever it was you're doing before because you weren't supposed to be do this whole youtube thing like It's just something I have to get used to again because he used to make videos and then He forgot his password for a while now. He's back anyways youtube.com slash zanyo g is where you'll find that Head on over to his channel and make sure you give him a subscribe He's getting really close to like 5000 subscribers. Is that right? I think so. Yeah, so Everybody who's watching listening head over to his channel. See if we can't get him to 5000 subscribers. That'd be awesome anyways, you can also You can if you want to help me get to 40 000 subscribers hit that subscribe button Just below or head on over to youtube.com slash linux cast You can support me on patreon at patreon.com slash linux cast. I'm on kofi Also again, this the the merch store shop dot the linux cast at org. There's nuggie t-shirts There's things that are They have nothing to do with nuggies all of that stuff goes directly to sports for the show. Yes, there's a pillow There's desk mats. There's hoodies their t-shirts all that stuff Shop dot the linux cast dot org is where you'll find all that we record this live Every saturday at three o'clock p.m. Eastern time. We're normally not people who actually get done in an hour, so Don't think that this is a this is a fluke by the way. Anyways Watch us live youtube.com slash linux cast. Thanks. Everybody who does support me on patreon and youtube you guys are all Absolutely amazing without you the channel just wouldn't have anywhere near where it is right now So thank you so very very much for your support Truly do appreciate it. We'll see you guys next time next week. I actually know hold on a second We're not here next week. We're off next week. So in two weeks We'll be back and that'll be tyler's topic. So we'll see you next time Bye


Greg, what do you got? I think a lot of the grooming we're going to see is associated with, she's usually immaculately groomed. Somebody has spent a lot of money on her hair and that kind of thing. And now she doesn't have that luxury. But clearly she's not herself, so she should be kingly aware of her appearance at all times. We'll see a lot of that. This is one of those cases where we're gonna talk a lot about adapters and self-grooming. This is both, I think in this case.