I don't see you yet, but I heard you I knew you distinctive voice and Janet is over in the attendees so I'm going to move her over to panelists and I do see Amherst media and here comes Janet and we are recording. Okay. Welcome. Okay, so I'm going to start. Welcome to the Amherst planning board meeting of February 3 2021 basically Governor Baker's executive order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law. GL chapter 30 a section 20 and signed Thursday chapter, excuse me, Thursday, March 12 2020 this planning board meeting is being held virtually using the zoom platform. My name is Jack jumps I can as a chair of Amherst planning board. I'm calling this meeting to order at like 632 p.m.  Rio chow. President. Tom Long. President. Andrew McDougal. President. Doug Marshall. President. Janet McGowan. Here. Johannes Newman. President. And myself present board members of technical difficulties arise we may need to pause temporarily to correct the problem, and they continue the meeting if you do not have technical issues. Please let Pam know discussion may be suspended while the technical issues are addressed in the minutes will note if this occurred. Please use your raised hand function to have to ask a question, or make a comment. I will see you raised hand and call you on you to speak. After speaking remember to remove so opportunity for public comment will be provided to the general public comment item and other appropriate times during the meeting. Please be aware of the board will respond to comments during the public comment period. If you wish to make a comment during the public comment period you must join the meeting via zoom, the zoom teleconferencing link the link is shown on the slide. That is shown. Please also listed on the meeting agenda posts on the website via the calendar listing for this meeting or you can go to the planning board web page and click on the most recent agenda which was the zoom link at the top of the page. Please indicate if you wish to make a comment by clicking the raise hand button when public comment is solicited if you have joined the zoom meeting is a telephone. If you wish to make a comment by pressing star nine on your telephone when called on please identify yourself by stating your full name and address yourself yourself back on into mute when finished. Residents can express their views for up to three minutes at the discretion of the planning board chair. If a speaker does not comply with these guidelines or exceeds their a lot of time, their participation, participation will be disconnected from the meeting. Also note that we're having a joint meeting with a community resources committee of the town council, and we will have them, you know, enter in after we review our minutes and have a public comment period. So, oops, I'm getting my agenda here. So the minutes. And what do we have for minutes again. You have may 20th and January 20th. Okay. Yes. I'm just bringing those up. You know, I myself I did not get the, the, the packet today in the mail. And that was like a little discussion and maybe. Maybe we just go, you know, digital and not expect and go through the expense of sending out that but I did not get my packet. I don't think Maria did either. And Andrew no. Oh, so nobody got their packet today.  I printed out, you know what I needed to so we can discuss that later. So, so the minutes. I'm just opening up when I need to hear. So we have May 20. 2020 minutes. Christine Gray Mullen was the chair at that time. All right. Yes. They go back a little bit. So let's see. You could vote. Janet could vote Maria and Doug. Andrew Tom and Johanna would abstain. Okay. So, I move to accept the minutes of May 21st 19. I'm sorry, 2020, wrong thing. Right. A second. Maria second. Okay. So, any further discussion on those minutes. You can take a roll call. Maria. Okay. I think Doug's hands raised. Oh, all right. I have to. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I just thought I'd say that I do wait to get the packet usually before I review things. So I have not read the minutes that we have here. But I'm scanning through them and it's, you know, maybe. So I may abstain from the voting. Okay. Okay. I'm kind of in, I'm in the same boat there. We could put this off till next time. Okay. Okay. Let's do that then. And so let's push off the minutes then. And this move into the public comment. Period then. Okay. I'm just going to take a peek. We do have a hand. And let's make, if I, you know, please, the planning board matters. I think it might really facilitate things. And provide some efficiencies. For us. So. Public comment. Period. Oh, I see one hand out there. Pam Rooney. Sarah McKee. Jerry wise. Okay. You want to just start at the top. Yes. Okay. Hi, Pam. Hi, everybody. Thanks for having us. It's a little tough. I'll just make a comment. It's a little tough to comment on things that haven't been discussed yet. So this is just a, a general statement that. We had a good district presentation from Evan and Steve the other night. And what struck me in this conversation with the C. R. C. And the planning board. Is that it's, it's a little murky. It's a little unclear where the bouncing red ball is at any given time. I don't know the responsibilities of the C. R. C. In. In analyzing and delving into the details. For those of us who want to be. Engaged in the conversation, the roll up your sleeves and really, you know, talk about the issues and talk about how to tweak things to make them good for the town. It's a little tough to follow. So that's just kind of my. General statement. And maybe you all can clarify that tonight. In the past, we. Had the zoning subcommittee. And then through the zoning subcommittee, the planning board to hash out those details. And literally they would sit with either people that had brought a zoning article. For consideration. Or those who might. Might be a stakeholder in the conversation that was, that was being held. But it was very clear where one went to participate in that conversation. And I think if you all could help clarify that. When you have joint meetings. It's even. Less clear whose. Ball. Whose court this ball is in. So thank you. And thank you. You're good work. Thank you. Pam, I just. I guess. If, if you could kind of like distill that into. One more. Remark what exactly is your, is your request? Cause I'm a little bit unclear. I don't know when in your conversation about the sea. I don't really know the role of the CRC. Compared to the all, all called the traditional role. Of the zoning subcommittee and the planning board who were. Really the purveyors and managers of zoning articles. They would work it through. They would hold the hearings. And then they would present it. Meeting. So I, I get confused. And I don't know which meetings to attend because I am interested in zoning. If I should sit in on all the CRC meeting. In case they talk about 40 hours. Or should I only, you know, focus on the planning board and, and, or the zoning subcommittees. Okay. I got you. So, you know, yeah. So it's a work in progress. And actually our joint committee is addressing that. You know, that, that protocol. And our process moving forward. So that's good. Thank you. Sarah. Hi, Sarah. She dropped off, but we have Jerry. Yep. So I'm going to ask. Can I interrupt for a moment? Darcy Dumont wants to be invited into the meeting. I think she dropped off too. I just got a little text about that. I don't know, Pam, if you can see her or let her in or. I'm not sure. Whatever magic that you do. So Darcy is not a member of the community resources committee. And she is currently in attendees and that is where she should be. Yeah. I think she may not be able to. She's there. She's just got to raise her hand. Right. Okay. For this moment, Jerry, Jerry wise. Yes. Has been asked to speak. Yeah. Jerry, please. Okay. Thank you. So I think everybody. At this meeting has gotten my letter, which has a much more. Detailed explanation of my questions and concerns. And I would start by saying that. The overarching concern. Question I have is what is, what are your goals. For, in my humble opinion, this massive rezoning. Of Amherst that is being proposed. And the subset. Gold question. Part B is what is your evidence that such rezoning. Will accomplish those goals. And then my letter spells out a lot of more questions about what your evidence is for. Different aspects about how will it, how will it. Actually improve affordability. How many units will it, will it take. In order to accomplish those goals of affordability and inclusivity and. You know, making neighborhoods more variable. Those, those questions are all spelled out in the document. You probably don't want me to read the whole thing tonight. You know what? We have an issue with the mailing of the packet. So I'm not sure that we saw your document. Oh. And. Ham. Do you know if that was. I don't know if you've seen that document. So was it sent to the planning board, Mr. Weiss or, or the. Yeah. Unfortunately, I sent it. I sent it to the entire council about a week or so ago and. And I'm apologizing. I only sent it to the planning board today. When I heard about this meeting. And nobody's fault that I didn't know about the meeting, but my own. So I'm not blaming anybody. But I did send it this morning, I think, to the planning board. Okay. I could try, I could try to do, do a shorter version of it. If you would like. Yeah, I just think that we, we just need to see it. And then I'm sure it's fine as is, you know, I think you need to make a shorter version, but. We can certainly forward it to the board tomorrow. I haven't seen it. I think Mr. Weiss, if he would send it to the planning department email. I did. Okay. I put it, I sent it to planning at emmers mass. Gobs. Emerson a. Gov. Yep. Jerry. I hate to interrupt, but, but the town council got it. So I could forward what you sent to the town council onto Chris and Jack and Pam to forward onto the planning board. Okay. I don't know what happened to it, but. My sent box. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mandy. Very good. And then we have. I thought we had Darcy's hand up, but it's not up now. You have Ira. Brick is next and followed by Janet Keller. Okay. So Ira. Hello, Ira. Hi, how are you? Very well. Thank you. Thank you. I'm Ira Brick to five, five strong street. I'm not going to say anything that will be a great surprise because I've been. Kind of vocal on this, but I just want to maybe put a new spin on a few of these is. I know that the priorities that are being considered now are from the master plan. And though people work very hard on the master plan. It is now a decade old and a lot of things have. Changed in the world and in Amherst is more housing in North Amherst on university drive. There's, you know, news over the last couple of years, that private. Public partnerships might put more dorms on campus. And the changing economies of, of a higher education. Not to mention that a lot of the priorities that are being stressed are kind of cherry picked out of the master plan out of the city. So there's been a lot of expression in the context of over 15. Stresses on character of the neighborhood. And there's been a lot of expression by the community that I think has been kind of overlooked. By the government making, you know, less impact if it is a, you know, a template of a letter that still is a vote. A lot of people that don't want the tall buildings and the buildings to be broken down, they don't want to be broken down. They don't want to be broken down, whether we even still have a housing crisis. And plus something that I've recommended, there are other diagnoses and cures for this problem that I don't really feel the town is looking at. For instance, are there things that can be tweaked in the economics of student houses, changing. Maximum unrelated people in the house might change things in a way that is not really a good thing. And it's a, it's a, it's a very, very complex. Economist that said that it worked in Ithaca. And also to use the consultant money that apparently is still there to create exactly what we want the entire town to look like. When I look at your version of what downtown Amher should look like in, I think it's 2039. It's a scary vision. It's more of what people have strongly expressed. They don't want. And there is something that I would be fine with. I don't think that's a good idea. I think that's a good idea. I think that's a good idea to have in mind. I don't think that's a good idea to have in mind. I think that's a good way to get into the city of development. But I think that three story buildings. Lining the street. And if people can figure out how to make those profitable and try to lure developers that would want to build new England style, three story buildings that are mixed use. That would attract all kinds of. Community members to us. So I'm saying this again, a couple of new little pieces, a couple of new things that could have a lot of. Unwanted repercussions. I say that with respect. I know how hard you will work. And thank you so much. Thank you. Jerry's hand is still up. I'm going to, I've just unmuted him. Jerry, did you, is that a residual hand? Sorry, that's all the residual and I'll lower my hand. Okay. Hi, Janet. Hello. Hi, Janet. Janet, I've enabled you to speak. She's, she's muted. There you go. Yeah. Okay. So. I too would like to know.  Are for this. Massive rezoning for this really big. Effort. And the framework for clarifying what results you're seeking where. When I began to dive into. The PRCRC proposals. They were really hard to work with. In the current form. For a constituent. You have to. We need. A map showing where. And what results you want. Are we to assume that you really do want to. Densify even into say, a zone like the flood prone currency. Is that your intention? I really could use some clarity. I think, I think a lot of us could use some clarity here. And would seek. A map. Maps and photos that are easily accessible for us. So that we could know what to expect. And. Also, if you would share with us. Any. Reasons that you have to believe. In. Outcome B. So where has that. Worked where has there been a problem. Where has a given proposal work to solve that problem? Would you share that with us? And then finally. I'm looking for. Any proposals from. The planning board and the council and the CRC for. Having some robust public. Participation on this. I was very impressed. With the Chalene's. Public outreach proposal for housing, but. This is a much, much bigger task. And. Much greater implications and. Really am urging you to provide robust. Public. Jamp sooner rather than later. Thanks. So, Chris, do you want to speak to that? Cause I heard some like, you know, zoning or the floodplain issues. I know that's coming along. I would say once CRC is. Formally called to order, we can start addressing that as part of that. Okay. Very good. So we can move on to that then. You have, you have one more. Comment from Hilda green bomb. Oh, sorry. Ready. Hi, Hilda. I'd like to put in another plug for my favorite subject. And that's the, the new 101 page economic development document allowed the town. To adopt. Starter. Housing and cluster of affordable cluster developments. And I'm really pushing hard for that because this town is overwhelmingly rental housing. And there's very, and Evan, I have to thank Evan for putting this bug in my head. And it was really no place anymore to port. Orchard Valley. So what we used to call two mile Tony's. Little development off East pleasant street back in the 60s. There's no place to put these up anymore. And I think only affordable developments can afford to do it.  I'd like to thank you for joining subcommittee and CRC to look really seriously at getting some workforce housing here. That's affordable. That can be owner occupied where the workforce of this town can build up equity in their own house. And then when they want to move up to something a little bit higher. On the income bracket, they, they can pass this on to somebody else who's lower down on the scale and just beginning their, their, working career in this town. And we really need. Places that people who work here can afford to live in town. And we don't have anything like it. And I think. Very much that the land over on belts of town role that you're in the process of purchasing is a really good place to put. And the city of Toronto. Owner occupied starter housing. And so I'm putting another plugin for that every time I have a chance that we have enough rental. And not only do. The people who buy the starter homes benefit, but the town benefits by having a stable population that lives there. And we need to have a stable population that lives there. And we need to have a stable population that lives there. And we need to have a stable population year round down to under 20,000 in the summertime. We need more people. To have a stake. In keeping this town prosperous. So that's my lecture for tonight. Thank you. So I would like to call. The. The. CRC. And Mandy. So she can have her group. Thank you. So it is six 57 and seeing a quorum of the community resources committee present, I will call the CRC to order for this special meeting on February 3rd, 2021. Jack did all the virtual remote participation stuff. So I will not repeat that, but I will make sure all of our members can hear us. And we can hear them. And then we're going to move right in. And then we're going to move right in. And then we're going to move right in. And then we're going to move right in. Jack and the planning board for having us. So I'm just going to call a role here. And I'm going to go back down just the way I see it. Steve Schreiber. Here. Dorothy Pam. Here. And welcome Dorothy to your back to the CRC for your first meeting. Thank you. I'm thrilled to be back. I'm. Shalini Balmille. I'm here. And I confused Evan Ross. Evan. I'm glad to be back here. So all five of us are here. Welcome. Jack and I, I believe agreed that I will be sort of presiding over this portion of the joint meeting. I thank the planning department and the planning board for suggesting this joint meeting to sort of. Have an initial discussion about zoning priorities. And I want to, I want to. Lead off with this is an initial discussion. And I'm just going to, I'm just going to, I'm just going to, I'm just going to, I'm just going to, you know, I know CRC was not called to order during the public comment. We're going to get better at figuring out those two joint agendas as we do this more often. But all CRC members were here for that. And we are at the beginning of a process. There aren't any concrete proposals on the table yet. This is before the council has even referred anything concrete to the committees to hold the public hearings as required by the committee. And so we're going to have to sort of. Flesh out and, and you know, sort of clarify. How this might work because this is really going to be the first time these two boards and committees along with the planning department really delve into sort of joint efforts on dealing with zoning by law changes. And in, in a. In a big way. I think that the point is that Rob and Chris will give a preliminary status report on where they are regarding a work plan. That then we as a joint group can discuss and give feedback on. And that work plan will be things like what's coming first or second, what they see and, and things like that. And Chris and Rob will.  I, I do not know how complete it is. Because we had originally talked about it being more complete for the February 9th CRC meeting. So this is sort of a progress update on that. And, and it will be more, my, my assumption is it will be more fleshed out come next Tuesday at the CRC meeting. After that discussion, Jack and I will be updating the bodies on. Discussions we've had regarding collaboration and potentially more joint meetings. And, and how that can happen in relationship to the work plan that Rob and Chris will be talking about and discussion will follow with that. And then after that, we hoped to. Hold some actual discussion, collaborative discussion and all on. The challenges faced in the BL and as they relate to sort of the zoning priorities that the council. Directed the town manager to, to sort of come in with. The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the recent. The, the, the, the, the, the work plan that they were working on. Revisions for, and so that the hope of that conversation is again, a very first start. Of how conversations between the two committees could work. And what they might look like. And for us to sort of dip our toe into that it will by no means be the last conversations these bodies have. Or the last time it's there. The very first time people will have. To hear where we are on. where we hope zoning changes for that area might bring us and all and those those discussions will continue because there as I said there are nothing on the table right now despite some of the specificity of the zoning priorities that the council directed the town manager to work on. And so with that I will take I see one hand I really would like to go to Chris and Rob soon so I will recognize Janet initially but but after that we're going to move to Chris and Rob Janet. Thank you I just I have a question a clarification point is I thought that this item on the agenda was just talking about the work plan and collaboration. And so I didn't realize that we were going into the BL and as we learning in the zoning subcommittee is quite murky and complicated and we have been working on maps and different ways of envisioning what should be in the BL. And so I didn't even realize that was on the agenda and then Chris Christine Brunstrup had sent me your memo, and it looked like we're talking more substantively about the BL and I know there's tons of people interested in the BL issues. And I know that they probably don't if I didn't realize we're talking with the BL I'm sure they didn't. So I was wondering, to me it looks like it wasn't really properly noticed but I just, I think we have enough to talk about, and I would love to talk about how we're going to work together, you know public participation plan all that stuff so I just, I would, I just don't think we can go into the substantive issue that wasn't properly noticed. So I just, I don't want to go into the territory so that was that was my, my, my reaction to that I was quite surprised when I read your, your memo. Thank you Janet for voicing that concern the notice and the genders all said zoning priorities they were not specific about what type of discussion or any specificity to that, and the zoning priorities list a number of things so the belief is that that that notice was acceptable under open meeting law in order to have a discussion even on the substantive matters, not just on a work plan. And so, so we will continue that it'll all depend on though how far we go into that on timing, because I know you guys have more stuff to do on planning board it is the only thing noticed for CRC. So I'm going to finish all of this, I think the CRC portion in this part by about 830 or so I think is what I talked to Jack about. And as I said, it will not be the only time we talk substance on BL or or anything related to BL it's a it's a toe in the water to show how these conversations would start. Yeah, I guess my point is if I didn't realize we're talking about the BL in substance because that says zoning amendment priorities work plan I don't think anyone else did so I do think it's an open meeting law violation, but thank you. So we will start with Chris and Rob. Good evening. Thanks for having us. Thank you for this joint meeting. We're really happy to be here to start talking about zoning bylaw amendments and the beginning of a work plan. As mentioned, we hope to with feedback tonight and a little bit more time, really have a more concrete complete plan for the February night meeting and discussion, along with more details about what what has been worked on. We have a very brief group of slides to go through tonight to talk about these items that we will be working on and how we see the next several weeks to go. Christine's going to start it off with Pam's assistance. You ready for the slides. Ready for the slides. Okay, let me just find them. Where are they. That's not them. They are on my desktop but they're not showing up here when I asked to share. So when I do this. Can you see them. No, I sent them to Mandy Joe and Jack. Yep. I can try to bring them up. I got them. Well done. Can you see it now. Yeah, go to the first slide. So this is just a little outline of how we got here and what we're doing. So first, this is really the first meeting that we've had with with both bodies. It's really the first meeting we've had with the planning board to talk about zoning amendments. Since the town council asked us to start working on them. So this is a draft work plan. May I have the next slide please. On January 4, the town council voted to direct the town manager to present zoning amendments to the town council. And the zoning amendments were divided into two groups and assigned due dates. There was a phase one set of zoning amendments and phase two set. I think they were initially termed the March set and the September set. The planning commissioner and the planning department assessed the list and we're working on developing a work plan to achieve the stated goals. The planning department and the building commission will present the work plan to the CRC community resources committee on February 9th. May I have the next slide please. I wanted to review what the town council asked the town manager to ask us to do. The first set of requests, there were dealing with the BL zoning district, the limited business zoning district, and trying to figure out how to allow housing to occur there. There is existing housing there, but for the most part it's non conforming. So how can we allow housing to occur in the BL zoning district. So what we have listed here is adding footnote a to maximum lot coverage and maximum building coverage and what that means is that footnote a has to do with a special permit that either the planning board or the zoning board of appeals can grant to modify dimensional requirements. So in this case it would be modifying maximum lot coverage and maximum building coverage. The next one we have listed here is revising the supplemental dwelling unit by law. And the idea is to allow a larger supplemental dwelling unit, then we currently allow 800 square feet. We'd like to be able to offer one that would be as big as 1000 square feet. One here is demolition delay by law revisions, and this is something that the historical commission has been working on for quite a while. And I think members of town council are aware of some of the difficulties with dealing with with sort of enforcing the demolition delay by law to make it to make it work. It really doesn't work very well in its current state so they're working on coming up with a revised version, and they're working with the planning department on that and that, of course the building commissioner. The, the, I think fifth thing here is working with town council to begin to talk about housing types and what kinds of housing types might be allowed in different parts of town currently. Two family houses are allowed in all residential districts. And I believe that two family houses are also allowed in all residential districts, and some of them require special permit, but we'd like to consider the possibility of allowing other types of housing like perhaps triplexes or quadruplexes. So that's a conversation that will be starting sometime this year. Sixth one, is that right? Move apartments to site plan review in more districts. So currently apartments are allowed by site plan review in the BG general business district, but they're not everywhere else special permit is required. Special permit from the zoning board of appeals. So the idea is to make it easier to develop apartments in different districts. The next one is remove footnote M and footnote M is, we only have three footnotes left in the dimensional table but footnote M is requiring it deals with the RG general residence district, and for townhouses and apartments that are built in the RG district. So that's a requirement to have in addition to the initial lot area that's required in the RG district. For each dwelling unit that you add there, you need to have 4,000 square feet of additional lot area. And the idea here is to eliminate footnote M so you can revert to the amount of additional lot area that you need for any other type of residential use. So if you have a duplex or I guess a duplex is a good example, you only need to have 2,500 square feet, an additional lot area. So that's a discussion that we've actually started that discussion in a pretty robust way in the zoning subcommittee meeting. The last one here under phase one is revising the definition of apartments. So apartments are currently limited to, you can only have for 24 units in an apartment building and you have to have a mix of units, you can't have any more than 50% of any one particular type. And there are other issues related to apartments. So if you can show me the next slide please. This is phase two. So these are things that the town council asked us to come back with by September. The first phase of things were things that they wanted us to come back with by March. So anyway, by September, the request was that we would deal with dimensional regulations in the general residents and village center residents districts. So for the most part that would deal with a lot area and frontage and things like that. Lowering barriers to development of duplexes and triplexes. So that's something that we are starting the conversation in phase one but we would continue the conversation in phase two. So we're going to go through the regulations for residential districts because we know that some some properties, particularly in the RG district are like one foot short of what they need to be in compliance with the zoning bylaw, and therefore they're considered to be non conforming so there are things that need to be looked at there. So one is look at appropriate uses for village centers and I think this was mentioned by Dorothy Pam as being important if we're going to put more residential development and village centers we really need to look at what other types of support uses could go as, you know, little stores to buy bread or buy, you know, milk or address or whatever you wanted to buy but not to have to go and get in your car and drive somewhere to, you know, be able to have these services. And the last one here is transportation issues and generally speaking the planning board doesn't talk too much about transportation issues that's really the billywick of the Department of Public Works and the transportation advisory committee but there may be some things that the planning board could do about transportation issues. And the last one here is hiring a consultant to guide us into creating form based design guidelines or form based code to make our buildings more in keeping with the buildings that are already here. So those are the things that the town council asked us to do. May I have the next slide please. Rob is going to take over from here. Okay, so as you saw that's a pretty big list of items. And those were the priorities established by the council. And, you know, there's another list of priorities that staff has that you know hasn't been incorporated into that yet. So we're going to talk a little bit about that in a couple of minutes. But really what we needed to do as a planning department staff is look at this list, look at the things that we feel are necessary to maybe move along with it that aren't listed there. What can we put together for a work plan that will be something that could be accomplished this spring and possibly be ready for review and consideration this summer. If you can go on to the next slide please. Well, they, the town as Chris mentioned the town council list included all these items in the first group of bullets. The BL district is something that not only the zoning subcommittee began quite a bit of work on in a previous couple of weeks ago and one other meeting sessions. The planning staff and planning staff has started looking at this in great detail as well. And we'll continue to do that and, you know, work together with the zoning subcommittee and share thoughts and ideas as we bring concepts together that we think are worthy of consideration. The elimination of footnote and as Chris mentioned this is the area increase for the additional unit on a property is is well into discussion and study and being analyzed and looked at both by the sub zoning subcommittee and staff. I also would like to address the apartment's definition and the supplemental dwelling units. So this first group of council priorities is something that we think could be worked on both by staff zoning subcommittee and be ready for viewing for showing a complete concept of an idea in each of these areas for the March 9 CRC meeting. So that in no way is suggesting that a an amendment is complete and ready to move on to consideration but it will have hopefully the back up information all the supporting documents and good idea or ideas to start the process to really think about an amendment in those areas. Now, some of the planning department priorities that will continue to work on during this time. We feel go along with some of these items up above in the town council list, for example, inclusionary zoning. We think now might be the time to look at that. How it's triggered the the applicability of the inclusionary zoning requirements, especially if we're looking at increasing the density in the BL district now might be the time to look at that so we expect to have ideas and suggestions on how to do that. Recodification. This has been talked about and call the number of different things as we've been discussing zoning by law amendments over the past months and really what we're hoping to do is have a reformatted by law with a very substantial level of corrections adjustments, nothing too substantive for changes at this point to get us a good cleaner, more presentable document that is going to be good for all of us working forward and continuing to make adjustments and additions and changes in the future. And we'll be ready to talk more about that and probably even show what that is starting to look like in at the February 9 or shortly after set of meetings. We also believe the mixed use building use category needs to be defined it needs to be a set of standards that goes along with with those buildings, specifically to deal with the percentage of commercial or non residential space, and how that first floor of those the building gets gets used for those non residential uses. You've all heard about flood maps in the past and then Chris did talk a little bit about demo delay. The historic commission has done a lot of great work on the demo delay advancing that along staff has made comments on their draft and will continue to work with the historic commission to come up with a document that will be ready to move forward. Next slide please. We're, you know, we're looking at a very rough schedule at this point but these are the group of meetings coming up over the next couple of months that we think we'll be able to talk about our progress and work on these these a couple of meetings have already occurred zoning subcommittee tonight's meeting of course, and we are going to be actively preparing for the February 9 meeting to really finalize this this work plan. We'll talk more specifically about what what staff in the zoning subcommittee has either realized through the studies or analysis that's occurring and possibly even talk about some some concepts for amendment amendments and how to deal with some of these questions and issues. We've got a zoning subcommittee and the upcoming planning board meetings where if there's time and interest will be able to provide updates and show our progress on the work we are completing. The CRC meeting on the 23rd if it's available would be a good time to probably see some of these items really come together and shape up into what a bylaw amendment proposal could start to look like. The following zoning subcommittee planning board meetings could be used again for for those updates and our goal is to get to the March 9 meeting timeframe with a package a package of materials that support or I guess provide background on what's being requested. And and supporting information for the bet what staff and the zoning scope subcommittee and you know to the input that we received along the way during these series of meetings that we think is the best approach for the moment and really begin that that that that effort to refine. Hopefully make adjustments and with the with the idea and at least at this point that we will be moving those those concepts further along in the process working our way towards submission to the council and planning board. So that's that's the end of our slide presentation crystal free to add anything that you think I might have missed. Otherwise we can certainly be ready for questions. I don't have anything to add. Thank you Chris and Rob for that. That was appreciated and I think CRC is going to look forward to hearing more on Tuesday and are there any initial thoughts from any CRC or planning board members regarding what we just heard hands populate Jack. I'm very disturbed by this comment by the planning board member that mentioned open meeting law violation. I think we need to rectify this now because it's just it doesn't sit well with me I feel like this was advertised zoning priorities. We have 14 items. We're trying to work you know through a plan and a schedule. And can we please rectify this because I'm not comfortable with that with with the comment that we're violating open meeting law. Thank you Jack. I will say the way the CRC meeting was noticed was presentation discussion items a zoning priorities and that's all it said. And so that covers everything, which is why I believe we have adequately complied with open meeting law and that CRC notice also indicated that it was joint with the planning board. And so that agenda and notice on the calendar covered that it would be with the planning board that zoning priorities would be discussed as the discussion item that would be joined with the planning board for this special meeting. And based on that that covers everything we've planned on discussing tonight in in the you know, given that open meeting law requires only adequate notice and that I think fulfills that requirement that the CRC meeting agenda that said it would be joint with the planning board said zoning priorities without any clarification beyond that. Is that to Jack does that. I'm not sure what else you would want me to I mean, I would, you know, ask Janet to like, what's going on. Because I just feel like that it just there's there's some, we need some consensus here because we need to move forward and Janet you raised your hand I will recognize you out of the line here for discussion on work. So Jack, I can understand how you might be reacting to this but it's nothing personal to me it's it's literally I talked to Maria at the zoning subcommittee yesterday and asked her what this agenda item was. And then last week about it, like what were you talking about it because I was confused by I didn't understand why you were all getting together to talk about a work plan. And then I also talked to Christine about it and it was just work plan work print work plan. And I never heard that it was anything substantive. And so, you know, I'm kind of an organized planning person and I had no idea until this afternoon that we were going to start talking about the BL which I know is very intricate. And if we want to start talking about all the stuff that Doug Marshall did and the different thing maps I'm totally down for that but I just don't think we noticed it properly and it's just a legal issue. And so I didn't look at the CRC agenda I looked at our agenda and so I'm just responding to that and so the purpose of opening the law is to give the public notice of what's going to be discussed and so I think what Mandy Joe is saying hey we told you. And then I'm saying the planning board didn't even tell me and I had, you know, inquired about it over and over so is, you know, that's that's where I'm coming from it's not personal and I'm glad we're talking about this work plan because you know, that's what I'm here for and I've been thinking about a lot. So I hope, you know, it's just the law, you know, and I'm seeing it that way. And I understand what Mandy Joe is saying based on her agenda. You know, so I don't know where that leaves us but I hope it's not a personal thing. I mean, I think as attorneys were often just sort of, you know, I'm a step away from things a lot of times come just like oh that's just the rule let's enforce it that's fair people I've noticed. I know a lot of people would love to talk about the BL who live right next to the BL and probably didn't realize it looking at our agenda. So that's it. Anyone else want to make a comment on what Janet has raised. Steve Schrager is raising. I see that Steven Johanna have raised their hands since then when I asked that so Steve. So we're not the ones that decide whether or not there's an open meeting law violation so I think that if the planning board member wants to complain or anyone else wants to complain they should do that. But I think we should, you know, forge ahead with the agenda that in my opinion was properly noticed. Johanna. I echo Stevens sentiments I. To me the process seems fine and let's move on. Andrew. I'm with Janet on this one. I think that the planning board expectation. I think a lot of folks who follow the planning board, they'll look at our agenda and not looking at the CRC even in a joint meeting and I think, you know, Janet's comments about raising the sub multiple times and not getting answered pretty. They're pretty powerful. So I would, I would agree. It seems like it wasn't properly noticed. I'm going to make a decision that before we go on there were two other things that no one has mentioned as potentially problematic. The presentation we just heard in a discussion following that presentation, and then a summary of Jack and I's conversation and how the two boards might collaborate together again that directly I think everyone would agree relates to a work plan. It appears the two agendas were listed slightly differently. I just looked at the planning board agenda. Let's finish those two discussions and see where we are time wise before we spend more time on this because I know we're not going to be here all night as a joint, as a joint group. And then we can make a decision as a group and entertain any potential motions or not regarding any further discussion at that time. Andrew, your hand is still up. Did you have anything more to add? Okay, this wanted to make sure. So, so I, that's the decision I'm going to go with right now we will potentially revisit this when we finish the two other items that were on the list to talk about before we get to substantive matters to forge into dip a toe into how to discuss substantive matters with seven and five 12 members of the two committees. And so back to, we were going to discuss feedback and thoughts on what Robin Chris presented. Maria and then Dorothy. Thank you. So, remember what I was going to say. Oh, so at last night zoning subcommittee meeting, it just made it really clear to me how important it is to have planning department staff involved in discussions in real time. As the zoning so many created a few studies and we made our own sort of conclusions like oh this is interesting and then they stepped right in and said actually, you know, I don't want to get into weeds but you know, having that was really interesting to hear both Chris and Rob speak up and inform us exactly of like why this has that application or this has this impact that we didn't consider so I really look to the planning staff to set sort of their time frame and work plan as far as what is appropriate for them to get worked on presentable to the various groups. You know the zoning subcommittee, we do not have the historical knowledge and zoning I'll speak for myself zoning bylaw knowledge that the planning department has. So I'd really look to them to set sort of the speed and the series of meetings that we should have moving forward. And we started the zoning so many weekly meetings, it was back when we misunderstood that by March 15, we should have this and that's changed so I'm hoping that can relax a little so that we can get more work done. So yeah I really look forward to the planning department like over the moon that they're going to help out and so. Yeah I just want to know more about like moving forward what next steps might be but but yeah thank you for, you know, helping out and letting the zoning so many help out however we can, but that you guys really tell us, you know where we can fold into all this work moving forward. Thank you Maria Dorothy. Just second what Maria said, but what I wanted to say was I was so pleased that the planning departments list, their own list had inclusionary zoning at the top, because I believe that the motivation behind this. And a lot of the motivation behind the rezoning is desire to create more and more affordable housing and not just through the fact that if we create more housing somehow it'll all become more affordable, but really a big aim to create housing that can fit a more diverse group of people. So I think it's really important to have inclusionary zoning right up there at the top when we consider what we're doing. So thank you. Okay. Is there anyone else that has any comments or feedback at this time, Janet. So I'm really excited to see the inclusionary zoning there because I you know I think it's so important and I think with some tweaks we can have a great new bylaw in that that is more comprehensive and covers, you know any development with more than 10 units, and it will be one of the goals of the master plan. I, you know just from our, you know, two or three zoning subcommittee meetings and all the maps and all the analysis of what the bylaw means and how it relates to this and that and then know who owns what property, how big things could get into what the effective footnotes are and there's lots of footnotes that you know especially footnote a is very loose, kind of waiver. I really do appreciate the planning department, bringing more staff on and and the and putting a work plan that has a lot of careful analysis because you just can't look at something and think oh here here's the easy fix like it has weird repercussions everywhere and then kind of sort through them. And I also like the hive mind of, you know, the zoning subcommittee members everybody on that has something different to bring to the table and different points of view. And also it's a good place for the public to be involved. So I just, I do love this slower work plan because I rather be thorough and do a really well good job because the zoning changes as we know less can last for decades. I have a question for Robin Chris about design guidelines because when I read the master plan, it literally like trumpets that increasing density should be accompanied by strict design guidelines, and then it to ensure that the town in 10 or 20 years is just still looks like Amherst is still has a New England style, a development pattern that is not sprawling everywhere. And then also that we you know protect our historic buildings. And so I know that's on the list and it's, it always sort of shows up at the bottom of the list but we have money now, we've had money for years. Can that, can we jumpstart that so be, you know, to see, you know, for downtime planning because I think whatever we want to see downtown is probably what we want to see in village centers and so can we do that faster like is there a plan to start putting an RFP out and looking at people and, you know, I volunteer to help in any way. We're working with the with the town with the finance committee with the JCPC and with staff here in the planning department to try to work out exactly how much money we need for that design guidelines analysis and we actually need more money than what we had initially, and the money that we had initially is unfortunately old money, and it's not old money in the good way it's old money in the bad way so that money may. We may need to ask for some new money to do this. So, stay, stay tuned, but we're working on it. My question I'll try to, it's like these different thoughts in my head I'll try to be as clear as possible. I'm just wondering how previous feedback that we've received from the community like they were for example to the town planning community engagement, and there's like lots of data there and in bank center and one was it, I think, the library. And so how is that information going to be incorporated into the planning what's happening in the changes that we're doing and secondly, you know, since our goal is to have more affordable housing to have more workforce housing diversity of people living in our community. What, what are we doing to ensure that is indeed going to happen in the sense that have like I'm just thinking that we're assuming that if we build more affordable housing then we will have more people of color living and we'll have more, you know, more people working here teachers and so forth living here. Whereas in my mind I'm wondering if it would make sense to do a survey that would be sent out to teachers firefighters police different workforce and try to get a sense of what kind of housing would they like would it be independent I like the idea of like would they prefer that or would they prefer to be in condos or would they prefer to be in, you know, are we building the right kind of housing that people would want because I did read about one study where they built like a special builder was invited to build workforce housing for teachers, and none of the teachers moved in, because that's not what they wanted. And so it ended up being rented to, you know marketplace whatever. So I'm just hoping that we can do some sort of community, either it's already been done and if not, we could, while you are working on some of the details we could set out surveys to work for us to people of color. So I'm going to ask you, Mass Hampshire College PhD students who could be recruited to stay back and what would be inviting for them to stay back. Chris or Rob, do you have any thoughts on that before I recognize Doug. I have a thought about the community forums that were held a few years ago I think we've. Well, I, and I think I speak for other planners have internalized that. And I think the planning board has internalized what we heard at those meetings. If someone wants to have, you know, things written out in list form about exactly what we heard, you know, we can probably do that. And we heard what people had to say, there were differences of opinion. Not everybody agreed, and we tried to listen to what everybody said, and so what we're trying to accommodate or accomplish is, you know, trying to be as, as knowledgeable of all of those different opinions, but put something together that we can actually move forward with. So that's, that's the answer to the community forums I think we've internalized that that information and we can put it in writing if people want that. The other part about surveys. Perhaps that's something that CRC would like to accomplish in its outreach but I don't know if the planning department is willing to do that at this time. Thank you Chris. Doug, then Dorothy. Yeah, I just wanted to say in response to the question about the timing of design guidelines that I would not support commencing a design guideline process. Until we've had more conversation about what we actually want, because those got design guidelines typically are a way of depicting what you already want. Dorothy. One way to approach this is and this has been mentioned by people in at the many meetings is to take a look at a successful neighborhood and see what it is what's there. And a successful neighborhood to me is one where people interact mix and have a sense of community and seem happy to be there. I did some writing around and you know on the ground research today, two of the key neighborhoods that have been talked about. I did Lincoln and sunset and prospect, and I did cottage street. And what I saw was there was a difference in lot size in various places, but there were some things that were in common between the neighborhoods. There wasn't dependent on lot size that there was private space in the back, not necessarily huge with some private outdoor space, and then there was public outward looking space, they almost all had front porches. So, in fact, you could do a calendar of front porches of Amherst and it would be a really good fundraiser because there are a lot of wonderful quirky front porches all over the place. So, a good community is one where people feel they can have some time outdoors by themselves, and where they can interact in a very low key way, just by sitting on your porch watching people go by, or, you know, working in your front yard and talking to people go by in the sidewalk. And this was true for smaller houses on smaller lots and bigger houses and bigger lots. So, I think, looking at saying what, what works, I mean, several people have mentioned this, we could do some more research of our own. What seems to make a neighborhood one where people work together and come together on an organized fashion, and, you know, have neighborhood regular neighborhood meetings have neighborhood lists serves. People know each other by name, that kind of thing. And that is, I think that the aspect of Amherst that is most desirable. So, I think that I think I do like shall need survey idea very, very much. We make assumptions. And sometimes, you know, we don't know. And if we want a more varied neighborhood, more people, and varied incomes, we have to really find out, well, would they would they come if we made it if we build it, would they come, you know. So that that's my suggestion that we also look at what's here. We know that many neighborhoods and Amherst are really great and people like them. So how can we develop them, add some infill increase density in ways that don't sacrifice those good qualities. I think that's kind of the challenge that we face here. Janet. When I was thinking about the work plan. I was trying to, and I know that this is going to be a longer process, but this is, this is like a CRC question. You're going to be doing like a community impact review and trying to figure out the impacts on different members of the community and listen to you have a policy of doing a community impact review. But you were taking a deeper look at the effects of different zoning changes. And I also wondered, like, what's the timing of that what would that look like. And then also, are you going to be doing the community outreach to to or is that, you know, how to get the community involved and I know Christine Bressup is saying the planning department is going to put, you know, the live, you know, the zoning priorities onto the website. And so all these, you know, documents that we're generating and ideas and whatever is going to be live and people can comment on that so I'm trying to see how that's all going to go like the CRC has a community impact review. So I'm going to ask you about the planning board's job. You know what, what's that going to look like. And how does it time to, how does that have those two things time with the work plan.  I haven't spoken yet so I'm going to take my chairs presiding officers privilege right now to ask a few questions but also try to respond to, to some of those questions to CRC as was I was actively working on an outreach plan for the comprehensive housing policy, the goal is to potentially use that as a model for outreach regarding zoning amendments that outreach plan would include. I haven't made any decisions yet, but part of the thinking of with the housing outreach plan is community, at least one community conversation regarding the housing policy, where it's an actual conversation with people who show up at a meeting, instead of one way public comment. It is possible that that might be similar to how outreach regarding zoning bylaws work.  We saw that at a council meeting when there were just zoning priorities but no concrete proposals it's hard to really delve into the discussion. So I think the thinking right now, at least from the chair's point of view is that much of that outreach, beyond the public comments that are available at all meetings the public hearing that will happen after a formal presentation and proposal to town council on a meeting will occur sort of after the CRC and the council have some initial discussions on the visions and stuff some of what I was envisioning might happen today between our two bodies.  There is thinking of using potentially using for zoning, these zoning proposals and blanking on the name not the work sessions for councils in our rules but the, the, the public dialogue sessions. That's funny. The public dialogue sessions for prior to council meetings for public to get involved in conversations. So it's a, what I would say is it's a work plan in progress, even with the community outreach that will hopefully as we see where Chris and Rob are on timing will be able to be fleshed out with specific meeting times and all. We did just change our membership at February nights meeting CRC will be talking about meeting times to with a potential to maybe move them to a time that more people can attend, because that is certainly in our thing so so that's a response to that. I actually in that wanted to ask Chris and Rob, as they come up with their work plan if they can think about, because I don't know how specific the work plan will be in terms of timing and when things go to council and when things come to CRC as that comes to think about potentially needing some extended time between initial proposals and where you guys were talking about, you know where that discussion and nitty gritty sort of discussion of feedback goes potentially needing some extended time to do that community outreach at that time and to just consider that as as you're thinking about timing with with work plan. And then the one other thing I wanted to mention that doesn't really relate to work plan but I wanted to put out there because I know we have a number of attendees. I mentioned it again at the CRC meeting is in mid January Governor Baker signed the housing choice bill that related to a whole bunch of housing initiatives, one of which was amending MGL chapter 40 a section five section five is the section that deals with voting quantums to pass zoning amendments at the town council or city council. And those quantums for specific types of bylaw changes have changed from two thirds required at the town council to simple majority required so from nine votes in our form of government to seven votes. Some of the priorities and some of these revisions that we might be looking at might fall under that category we do not know now obviously which may or which may not. And so as these these revisions and discussions take place that will be determined and will be made known by town attorney to determine which way which number will be required whether it'll be simple majority or two thirds but I wanted to put that out because we have public attending and a lot of interest to know that that typical requirement for two thirds for all zoning changes as of mid January under state law has changed for a small subset of zoning changes some of which may fall under what we are working on now. So so many Joe so you don't feel like these zoning priorities are specific proposals like that will come later, and that will sort of trigger a public process. And then, how does the community impact review go get into your. Thank you for reminding me about the community impact review. What did you say, so I didn't want to. So, so, yes, the CRC has adopted a community impact review, or, well community impact process or community review process it's not just an impact review. It is a process for dealing with measures that come to CRC. And so those when measures come CRC has sometimes struggled with what are we supposed to do with this referral from town council and what does council want back. So we've adopted a process that allows us to figure out what exactly the council is asking us to do. And then how to go about doing that, you know, sometimes it's something that might not need an impact or benefit or pro and con type analysis or thinking it might need more of a can this be applied. You know, more of a goal analysis and so so that that process involves figuring out which of those analyses, or questioning and considerations is appropriate and then for when an impacts and benefits analysis is appropriate for doing that in a way that this document guides the CRC to ask questions. Because we realized if we didn't have anything written down, we would miss categories of questions. And it has helped us in the past to just review the categories and say hey did we talk about transportation issues regarding x, y or z bylaw amendment that we were referred to. And did we talk about, you know, climate and sustainability measures and questions do we have let's take a minute and say, are there any questions that relate to that or are there any effects we can think of and what might they be. And so it's, it's more of a guide to reviewing the proposal in front of the CRC, then an actual document necessarily that is produced at the end of that beyond the CRC report. And that will happen throughout the discussion, I believe at CRC, meaning CRC members need to take that that sort of document and use it to guide how they're going to approach asking questions and reviewing the measures both before and after a final session or after is proposed at the council so so it was adopted for something that has been referred to CRC from the council obviously we are starting these conversations before that formal referral. And so, so it is likely that document will in, you know, will reflect questions will reflect that documents categories. And I hope that helps a little bit of an understanding of how CRC will go about looking at zoning bylaw revisions both before there are specific proposals and after and you mentioned a question about specific proposals yes this the zoning committee has had some specific proposals in them, but CRC recognizes that CRC is not the expert to determine whether that is the actual right proposal, or revision for accomplishing the main goal of making that a priority and that's what we are relying on. And so I think what Rob and the planning department and the building commissioner to bring to us is, they could very well say hey you recommended eliminating footnote M, we think that's the absolute wrong thing to do to accomplish the goal you want. And so it's not necessarily that these are the set in stone what the revisions are going to come so I hope that clarifies that that was something that was discussed a lot at the town council level before these zoning priorities were adopted. So, you know, I. Yeah, I'm just, these are my thoughts and we haven't yet clarified and we haven't yet just finalized them but I'm also imagining that that so we're also gathering feedback on the measures that that's part of their, like we like manager mentioned the, the dialogue sessions will be kind of more like consult and like having very specific stakeholders identified and using existing groups to reach out to different stakeholders, whether it's renters or whether it's like I was mentioning. And so some of the work we're doing is once there are specific measures but I'm imagining that there are going to be questions about people's lived experiences quality of life, not speaking to specifically the measures of the changes the zoning but I'm also imagining that we're going to create a process like the surveys or forum dialogue sessions there's some combination of things where we're also understanding what are people's, and that's not going to be the planning department so don't worry that's not on you. I mean I'm hoping that CRC or some with some combination is going to be able to gather that information as well about people's lived experiences and not just about specific zoning about what changes and that will be incorporated and will be useful and helpful in making sure that what we are creating is meeting people's needs. So, Chris and Rob have you received enough feedback to help you continue on in in coming up with a work plan are there any specific questions you have that you'd like to hear thoughts from CRC or the planning board on as you work towards a more complete work plan. That's good I don't have any specific questions but do recognize that we will I think maybe at the ninth meeting really try to come better understand that extended timeframe that we need to build in so we are, we are aware of that and have that in mind but expecting that we'll adjust that and finalize that in our next discussions. Thank you. Thank you Rob Chris. I don't really have any other questions or comments to make at this time I'm looking forward to our meeting on Tuesday. Any further comments, questions feedback for Robin Chris from planning board or CRC members I know CRC gets another crack at this on the ninth so Janet. I'm just in the planning board we usually have a tradition of after we discuss or get information going to the public and I see there's a hand up in our attendees. And so, before we, you know, make a decision or go on. So I just want to point that out. Thank you Janet. I was going to before I. I recognize there is a hand it happens to be I think if it's still from the last time I looked yes it's it's from from a fellow counselor. Planning board already had its public comment time CRC did not because it's a special meeting include public comment time as presiding officer during this joint meeting. So I will take that into consideration but I would like us to get through the update on collaboration before that hand is recognized because those are very closely coordinated at that time but I do after those two and before we move on to whether we have time to get into a discussion do intend to recognize and potentially allow more comment period. I'll refer to also the planning board chair on that too but but I am aware of that and and we'll we'll fit some of that in in the in another appropriate time but thank you Janet. So without any more comments from CRC or planning board members. We're going to move on to item number two sort of in this work plan discussion, we kind of separated them, which is an update on thoughts regarding collaboration on the zoning discussion so so as you saw there's a work plan with a whole lot of pieces of three separate bodies and Jack, myself and actually Maria chow who's chair of the zoning subcommittee had a nice discussion to talk about how we could collaborate this joint meeting is one of the first of that collaboration but one of our as as chairs of some of our primary concerns is not is allowing the planning department and the building commissioner and all to get their work done without having to attend too many meetings to talk about the same thing over and over again with different bodies because them, if they have to in one week, attend three two hour meetings or one and a half hour meetings of zoning subcommittee planning board and CRC all talking about the exact same bylaw amendment, for example. That's that's four plus hours that they could be working on those bylaw amendments instead of talking about them with with community and with the committee members so we are hoping to somehow have more joint meetings, and you know this is something that CRC will need to discuss in terms of timing not proposed for tonight to discuss that that's why there is calendar meetings on the ninth for discussion as to when we can time stuff, but we particularly want to hear the thoughts of the planning board members and the CRC members about how we can do joint meetings more frequently potentially how frequent that could be whether it fits into schedules of planning board and and zoning subcommittee in hopes that you know we heard some public comments already about we don't know where to go. These are being discussed that that hopefully the public also has an idea of which meetings they need to attend a little more clearly for that so so where Jack I and Maria we're leaning I think we're to try and figure out at a CRC meeting which of the zoning subcommittee or planning board meeting times is better for CRC and that CRC then would in some sense join those meetings instead of asking zoning subcommittee or planning board to come to a CRC meeting whenever CRC might have a meeting on how they are Tuesdays two to four, which we recognize is not always great for community members volunteering their time and having full time jobs, but also for residents to actually attend meetings. And so that is in some sense the update and I think we were thinking potentially as frequently as once a month but this all depends on work plan and the timing of the work plan. I think that we will see out of planning and the building commissioner, a little bit next week about how frequently these combined meetings might happen, but we, I personally would love to hear what people think about trying to do joint meetings to have real meetings with 12 people, whether it might be beneficial to everyone here and and thoughts so with that I will recognize Jack Jack and Maria do you want to add anything before I start recognizing people to that sort of summary. Maria shaking her head Jack. I have nothing I just, you know, we're trying to get something that works. You know, given the town council. You know initiatives for, you know, working out the zoning priorities so we myself want to be flexible and hopefully you know the rest of the planning board will be as well but and we're also kind of like recognizing the planning department, you know, limited resources, fantastic resources at that but limited in terms of, you know, staff and time so we're just, I feel like this came about because of, you know, it was going to be with with CRC meeting on, you know, every Tuesday and and and and Chris's, you know draft schedule it just wasn't going to work so with that said, you know, I feel like we were going to kind of revisit, you know, what was it going to be be able to be accomplished within a reasonable timeframe but would make the town council would, you know, achieve the town council's goal so so we're looking at less meetings but more productive meetings I guess is, you know, a general concept. So, is that that your understanding Mandy. Yes. With that, we'll go to the people who raised their hands Dorothy. Okay. I understand what the problem is, but I will say that the feeling of the meetings are completely different. The zoning subcommittee, small, very intensive detail takes a lot of time to figure out what is being said. I would hate to lose those detailed meetings. To me they're very essential. I understand the problem with the staff the planning staff who are so helpful. And so I'm not going to, I'm not offering a solution to the problem but I'm saying that the week we can't lose the level of discussion at the zoning subcommittee, and then carries over it's discussed from slightly different points of view at the planning board even though there's a good deal of overlap. I found them all really essential. I think the real issue is that the CRC, everybody in the CRC has to absolutely totally understand what it is we're talking about. And then somehow we have to help other people on the town council understand it as well. We really don't this this is so important, just so absolutely integral to the success of our town that we have to make sure that we have done the work in the discussion, and it's not easy. It's not easy so just that's my comment that I find at this moment all three meetings very valuable. Thank you Dorothy Doug. I'm just going to point out that you won't have 12 people if CRC comes to a zoning subcommittee meeting because you'll only have five of us, rather than seven of us from the planning board in attendance at those meetings. And I don't know how. Let's see I'm trying to think who the two members of the planning board are who are not on the zoning subcommittee but you know whether they would feel like they were left out if you came to the zoning subcommittee. So I just thought that was a one consideration. I'm on the zoning subcommittee and the planning board and so I've blocked out those times, and I, you know, I'm happy and supportive to have as many of the CRC that want to join those conversations. As Dorothy mentioned I think the tenor and the feel of the zoning subcommittee meeting is much more casual and conversational I guess. So I too would be sorry to see that wither away. And I think it probably will be affected if most of the work that's discussed comes from the planning staff. I think, you know, given the work that we've been doing on the zoning subcommittee. I certainly show up at meetings more informed when I've done some work to prepare for the conversation. It's easy for me not to do that work if planning staff is showing up with the bulk of the work. Thank you. Thank you Doug Maria. I agree with Doug but I do think that the difference between us bringing the prepared work in the planning department having time to produce more thorough more in depth work will actually be a more effective meeting. And I guess it's an assumption me mean we meaning like the zoning subcommittee where mere mortals, but then when the planning department, you know, comes in with their sort of background and historical knowledge of what's been tried what's failed what's worked. I think their data is going to be much more telling and they just need the time to do it between the meetings. So I think it's finding, hopefully Robin Chris and the rest of the department can find that fine balance of how much time we need to get something pretty substantive so that we can all understand it and you know I feel like every time we presented something Doug at the zoning subcommittee. It was a lot of data and I'm not sure when picked up on it they probably had to look at their graphs and charts later on their own. But I feel like the staff, the planning department could really come with something kind of pared down and really clear and, you know, start to list the pros and cons in real ways I feel like we were just short showing what's possible and what's currently not possible but they can actually sort of distill it for us on another level so I just want to make sure we're not meeting so frequently that we can't get that information. So I agree our meetings have been very just, you know, very diet much well like dialogue and discussion but at the same time I'd love to have more thorough information to talk about. The staff so I don't know what the frequency of meetings that is but hopefully that's the work plan that's going to figure it out. Thank you Maria. Janet. I have a question for Christine. Do you do you because we I thought we've done at the last couple of zoning subcommittee meetings there's been some great analysis and charts of. You know, different properties who owns them, what build up could look like a lot of sketches and, you know, analysis. I'm wondering if Christine did you find that useful, or would you rather had the planning department bring that to the planning board and the zoning subcommittee, your questions and put those charts together. It seemed like that was great work and I was, I was just admiring the depth of expertise we have in the zoning subcommittee so that's my first question and I have one other idea. Yes, you may. Yeah, I found that useful. I, I will also be glad when the planning staff has a chance to delve into some of these things and, and I think that Maria and Doug did a terrific job and it happens that they have, you know, architectural skills and planning skills that they can bring to these things but you know the planning staff is really interested and wants to be involved here so I think there may be opportunities for Maria and Doug to contribute, but I think, you know, relying on the planning staff probably makes more sense in the end. Okay, and then I want to call out Andrews chart his mapping also the, I had this idea and I don't know if it's going to fit in. This before our meeting is, I was wondering if the CRC wants to have like a liaison to the zoning subcommittee because we were getting, you know, we're like with Dorothy is talking about is like really nitty gritty and you know we're talking about different categories and you can have a four plex and a trick plex and what's that versus an apartment and, you know, that kind of discussion I thought that would be maybe a good person from the CRC as a liaison but it sounds like you all want to be more involved so I'm not sure that idea would quite fit at this moment maybe in the future. So, just to respond to that before I recognize Shalini. The council is the one that determines who the liaisons are and the council has not designated a liaison to either the planning board or the zoning subcommittee under its rules. One of that I do believe given conversations that CRC has had in the past and the fact that it took a lead on trying to come up with some priorities that the council wants to see come to it, and the fact that the CRC is the council committee that is discussing land use and zoning per council charge that the full council wants to be involved. The full CRC wants to be involved in more detail with the discussions relating to the priorities that the council asked the town manager to come back with with zoning changes. That somewhat answers the question. Certainly I can't speak for every committee member but that's my understanding, given prior discussions at CRC and council.  Yeah I just wanted to hear you out first. I mean I wanted to give you the space to answer first. I think this is an incredibly timely and important conversation. Glad we're all having this. I think what I'm also hearing is that there's a lack of clarity around the different skill sets and roles and the timing of those things. In the sense that it sounds like the zoning committee is doing a lot of very in-depth work and has some skill sets, which are very useful but then I also heard from the planning department that perhaps those skills would be more useful at a different time and some of that work needs to happen in the planning department. There's a role of the CRC in all of this. We can come to all of the meetings but what are we contributing? What is our role? And so just having some clarity around who's doing what and what is the timing of those things and how do we share that information? I guess that's kind of what we're doing right now, but I just thought I would summarize that's what's going on in my head. And what I'm seeing is a town counsellor, my constantly, my... And I'll just venture out and say that I think as town counsellors our role, an important role is to obviously listen into the community and get feedback and all of that and also the long-term planning as CRC members of some of these issues. And so I mean that feels like our role and then it'd be interesting to see how we can clearly identify what are the skillsets and roles of the different people working here. Thank you, Shalini. Dorothy. I go to the zoning subcommittee not really to influence it. I just go because it's helping me to try to understand it. So, you know, you go to different places for different things, right? CRC is going to have to be making decisions. But, you know, I have found this a very complex topic but really important. And so I've been grappling with doing it and so when we go to a meeting it doesn't mean necessarily participating and guiding it just means attending and listening. That's all. Thank you, Dorothy. Any other thoughts of planning board or CRC members regarding this? I'm going to start with Evan and then go to Jack. Yeah, so I just just to throw my two cents in. I think the idea of trying to increase joint meetings is definitely a good thing but also provide having some clarity about when we would be doing this like what are the stages at which a joint meeting would be appropriate. Because I understand the concern for staff time, which I think is important. And then I think the other thing that you mentioned that I want to echo is for the public who's trying to follow it as well. I think it's really, you know, I'm looking at the attendees list and I'm seeing quite a few names that I know where Council Schreiber in my district meeting on Monday talking about zoning and now they're here tonight talking about zoning and they may well be at the CRC meeting on Tuesday to talk about zoning. And I'm sure they would like to have to attend less meetings to have their input. And so finding a way to make clear, I think, to the public when joint meetings are happening where their input would be valuable so people don't feel like they have to be at every committee meeting every planning board meeting and every CRC meeting so that they don't miss an opportunity to hear something important. I think we'll be really, we'll be really valuable. But then I also do want to sort of echo what I what I think Dorothy might have been saying which is that there also needs to be some space for the separate committees themselves to be able to have internal discussions about these. And so, you know, I think it's valuable when we have a CRC meeting with the five CRC members to be able to have a conversation you can have a little bit of a more thorough conversation. And so I'm hoping we can find a way to have those joint meetings, while still preserving a little bit of time for the, for the individual committees to have their discussions without having additional meetings right. I don't want us to have joint meetings and then separate meetings all the time because I also want to make sure this doesn't increase the meeting load of the counselors or the resident volunteers who are giving their time for free to the to the planning board in the zoning subcommittee. And so I trust that that Mandy and Jack and Marie can can work that out but I think increasing the joint meetings is a good idea but we'll I think always making sure there's a reason why we're doing that joint meeting and that reason is clear to us and to the public about why that meeting is a joint meeting and what the objective is of bringing those groups together. And so tonight this was a very clear one. I mean, we have to have a discussion about how we're going to work together that sort of the objective, but also providing some initial feedback on the work plan. Thank you Evan Jack. Yeah, I was just going to say that, you know, five of the seven planning board members around the zoning subcommittee so that's, that's quite a few people and so my thinking was that there's some process that we can capture from the zoning subcommittee. You know, workings that that we can just incorporate within a regular planning board meetings so that we can have, you know, consolidate and have fewer meetings, put less stress on the planning department, and just, you know, just add some efficiencies. Not at all. So I think that that is something that I think, you know, came to mind that, you know, how, how can we do this better. But I, you know, I agree, I like that format of the zoning subcommittee, and you know what is it, and why can't we bring that into the planning board and be productive. So I think that's the objective of the seven already on the zoning subcommittee. So, and, you know, our schedule has been fairly light with regard to projects, and that so it just seems like we can do that, you know, for, you know, the next, you know, month or or two, which is your timeframe for getting some, you know, knocking out some of the, the priorities. Thank you Jack Maria. Yeah, exactly. I think that I am going to try to do my second attempt at dissolving the zoning subcommittee. Basically, the zoning subcommittees are an hour and a half. I personally feel so rushed like I try to get into the meat of each topic and make sure we have public comment at the end. Planning board meetings are lights that if there's opportunity to put on the agenda, working session for this topic that, like Doug said, when we work on things we really understand it a lot better and we're kind of passionate about anyways we tend to like side get sidetracked and show other charts that maybe aren't related but I think we could totally set aside an agenda item planning board meetings to do that. And the way we run it is we have the members present what they found and then just open it up among the members other members to chime in with like, Oh, did you think about this or what do you think about that and then having Chris and Rob there to immediately give feedback and say, Oh, well, this is impossible because the parking will never work or we've tried that and this is the reason why that didn't work so that kind of discussion would be fantastic to have at the playing board meetings I think, especially with all the new planning board members and having a lot of different input and, and I think we since like you said, Jack we've already carved out this time slot, and it's a much more sort of liberal, you know, what is it, three really so it'll be a much more we can get really much more in depth into each topic I think I feel like when we were presenting at the zoning subcommittees with just barely got all the data out and people are just, you know, letting it all sink in and it was a little fast paced opinion so if other members are open to that idea I'm totally behind having eliminating zoning subcommittee again, this is my agenda, but, and then, you know, having it sort of fold into an like an hour or two for each planning board meeting. What what do you guys think other board members. Doug and then Andrew. All right, I, you know, I'm fine with what Maria was posing, but what I was going to say was that the, the reason I think the zoning subcommittee meetings have been more conversational and, and not quite as formal is that the members are all unmuted.  So it's much more conversational. And, you know, I think if we wanted to take planning board agenda and say okay during this working session we're just going to all unmute and have a conversation. I think that would probably achieve the same flow of thought that we get at the zoning subcommittee. I hadn't thought of your point, Doug, but I think it's a very good one and I think you've really captured one of the reasons why that committee works so well the subcommittee works so well. I also agree with Maria I think with with five of seven. It seems logical to collapse this the two ceremonies but I think of it not so much I wouldn't present it as like disbanding it but just kind of rolling it up into planning, you know because I think that's the point of doing the work right and we're still having the conversations. But if we can collapse that I think it's, it makes a lot of sense for everybody certainly, I think for the, the staff to be able to only have to count on one night, instead of the two I think is a huge opportunity and sometimes those conversations might be useful relative to the topics that we're discussing in the meeting anyway. So, I'd be in favor of collapsing the two. At this point I want to summarize, I'm going to summarize and then actually I'll recognize Janet before I summarize Janet. So, um, I, so I'm concerned about time and so if, um, you know, our planning board meetings usually are about three hours long they we get kind of epic at four. So if we were donating, designating an hour and a half of that each meeting to, you know, a footnote M or discussion, you know, because it does take a long time. I think that we're going to either have to meet as a planning board more often like maybe, you know, three Wednesdays a month which I'm fine with. But I think that the idea that we could, you know, I don't, I don't, I think we can't do that level of detail and work. And then the regular planning board work, because we're like one permit away from a four hour meeting often. So, if the planning board is interested in adding I mean I would love to talk about planning for an hour and a half every other week. But I don't know, I think those meetings are going to get long so I wonder if the planning board would be interested in adding a meeting, you know, to go to go into depth, or to make sure we have that time it doesn't get eaten away. That's, I mean, maybe we could talk that a planning board meeting but I'm not sure it really addresses the topic so much of how does the CRC and the planning board and the zoning subcommittee is if the planning board starts acting like the zoning subcommittee and maybe we add make our meetings longer at a meeting a month. I guess that's less one group for you guys to come and meet with but I'm not sure we kind of us the how do we all work together kind of thing. So that's what I was going to summarize what I was hearing. So thank you for bringing that back to us Janet but also for your comments on on timing. So what I'm hearing from a variety of individuals is the conversational atmosphere of a zoning subcommittee as it occurs is very helpful. So I will say at CRC, we sometimes have that conversational it works better with five or six people than it does with 12 or 13. And, and I'm hearing from from the planning board members and I would assume I hear it from CRC members if they were to chime in that that is very helpful to things like this discussion. If I'm going to order with 13. I'm hearing that it might be wise to have the the planning board portion or or that the discussions regard with planning board members to be at the planning board instead of zoning subcommittee, but that that might not always work out because of timing. And so that would be something I believe that Jack and Maria would have to discuss more closely to see how that goes. I'm hearing that CRC with the planning board or zoning subcommittee is a good thing to do, but it needs to be thought out carefully in terms of when in the process for each of these changes or groupings, which will see from Chris and how they might group things later in the in the week next week and throughout the month that we have to think about when in the process those joint meetings should happen, and that they should not be the only time the boards and committees discussed that that each board and committee needs their own time to have those more conversational meetings to even if we can figure out a way to have a conversational meeting with 12 members. But but that the individual committees because they might be focusing on different levels of analysis or areas of analysis to have that time within their own committees to focus on that would be good. And so that's what I've heard through this conversation I think that might give Jack Maria myself and the planning department Chris and Rob some idea on how to create a little bit more efficiency. While also not overworking Chris and Rob, in terms of demands on their time attending meetings and to do that. And what what might, you know, I think one of the things we need to potentially figure out is also that I heard was where each committee's contribution lies what type of contribution they're contributing so that the public to those is CRC the one that's delving into the nitty gritty of this particular bylaw and what I always refer to as the nitty gritty of is, is that setback or that frontage going to be 100 feet or 95 feet or 85 feet. So that happening versus when is more of a vision happening, which committees are doing that or is there overlap on those discussions and stuff like that I think, as we delve into this for the first time, that may start to work itself out a little bit, particularly potentially as we have joint meetings to see where questions people ask questions, and whether they fall into that but we might have to gear that a little bit more and and potentially more specificity on agendas to help the public understand where the conversation is going on a particular agenda may also be helpful from things I've heard. That's my summary of this discussion. If there are if people think I summarized anything wrong feel free to correct me now, or if anyone has anything to add to that summary. That would be great and if not then we will move on to recognizing the hands that are up I believe with Jack before we, we talk about something else Janet. Just thinking about like ways to communicate. When we started the zoning subcommittee started working on the priorities. I put together a Google doc because I was I was trying to think of like what are the questions we people will have about each priority and so I did a summary of a Google doc for like moving the BL into footnote be put down all the questions I could think of and I thought, you know if we had this living document, and we had it on the web so everyone can look at it and as we look at the diagrams and documents it could be something that people could look at. And, you know, so, and I did one for footnote and also which I haven't updated after our meeting, but I kept on thinking like if we had a live like each, each priority had a discussion document, we were collecting information and answering questions and attaching maps or drawings. That could be visible to the public it could be visible to the CRC, it could be visible to the planning board the zoning subcommittee, you know the planning department and that it might be just this living thing that we can consolidate the information we have and people post questions you know public and post questions hey I'm wondering what is bill that look like in the RG, you know what happens to this building if there's a waiver and it's, it's four stories not three, you know kind of thing like that and so I just wanted to put that out as a kind of a more modern way to, to, you know, consolidate all our information ideas or questions together. So, if just something to think about. So thank you for putting that out that idea out there I know I saw Evan immediately react and I know my immediate reaction was, ah, open meeting law we started this whole meeting with potential open meeting violations and I know this is an area that committees boards and other public bodies struggle with and how does it comply and so I know my hesitancy would be to ensure that something like that complies before it ever does it and I know there are some potential rulings out there that might say it does, and there is potential rulings out there that say it might say it doesn't. So, so I don't know how workable that type of decision is I don't want to shoot it down immediately, but, but having a living document that can be modified when there is no meeting called certainly does bring in potential open meeting law concerns. Yes, that was the issue that what we were looking at was, if this, you know, is it helping open meeting law by saying hey this is what the committee is working on, you can see it in living time and ask questions about it, or should it be revised once a week and then to be an announcement so that'd be, I mean, it seems like it's a question for the town attorney. And that is what it would be. But thank you for that suggestion any other final comments and see none without objection jack work. I feel like under our current circumstances we should offer another public comment period, and then potentially call the CRC portion of the meeting to a close so that the planning board can finish its agenda does that sound like a good plan jack.  In terms of the, you know, the schedule and things like that I feel like, are we done. Should we be finishing right now I know it's like two hours in, but where do we go from here, sort of thing so. So, so in terms of planning department work plan that'll come back to CRC on the ninth for a way to figure out how to do it. I, from what I saw some potential places for the planning board items for when the planning board might have that discussion or zoning subcommittee. I assume Chris and Rob will be talking to you and Maria regarding some of that scheduling, and it'll come to the CRC for talking about that scheduling here along with how to fit in the public feedback. There will be a progress report at the town council meeting. I think not the Monday one because CRC won't have discussed it so the one on the 22nd if I have my dates right for adding 14 days. But, but so that that's where we are with the work plan. It sounds like Chris and Rob got some valuable feedback from the two bodies regarding thoughts on the work plan and all, and then for the three bodies together. There's some valuable things from both sets of committees regarding that, that will require some more close work between the chairs of the three bodies to make sure that when we hold joint meetings, that they are clear on what their purpose are and they are held at the correct time. The committees believe joint meetings would be useful is what I heard. So it's a matter of working out a little more of the details on how that goes about. And not too often is the other thing I heard about joint meetings. So, you know, and Dennis, do you have one more questions, Jack?  So I was just, I'm just wondering about your are we going to revisit, you know, the schedule. And just how we're going to, to deal with the plan, you know, moving forward, you know, schedule wise and, and I'm not sure we got that resolved tonight, but if you like to address that question. Yeah, I think that we, Rob and I got enough input tonight from you all from the planning board and the CRC that we can, you know, start to put together a schedule and we'll be in touch with many Joe and Maria and Jack about when it would be appropriate to meet. And, you know, I think that over the next, what do we have four days? Thursday, Friday, not Saturday Sunday, but Monday. We'll be able to put something together for the CRC and members of the planning board who are available could listen in on that meeting and I think we'll be further down the road than we are, than we are right now. And I think we've gotten some valuable input to help us move forward.  The, the planned timing would be for the work plan to come to discussion approximately an hour into the meeting so around three o'clock right now. So if anyone is interested in the meeting starts at two comprehensive housing policy discussions will encompass approximately the first hour of the meeting a little bit more. If anyone is interested in the zoning work plan discussion, it'll probably not occur till three o'clock at the earliest for how the plan is going. The agenda planning is going for that. For those interested. Any other further discussion. Um, I would just like to offer to the planning department staff. What can we do to support you in doing your work in terms of the planning board in terms of the CRC folks, what can we do to what would be most useful from us coming to you. Why don't Rob and I think about that in the next few days and we'll get back to you about that but thank you for the offer. Thank you.  But what are the discussions happening in the planning board meetings about zoning right now, that would really help me understand also like what are you all talking about and then what is our overlap and what is the redundancy that could we each be doing so that it's more complimentary and not redundant. I'm going to go to Jack and Maria I believe most of that discussion has been happening in zoning subcommittee if I'm correct so Maria do you want to summarize a little bit about what the subcommittee's been discussing. Okay, I'm okay. Let's see, we were given from Chris, the first two items on the CRC priority list one and it was we just started with BL, but not be and I think it's not necessarily we found out it's not necessarily about removing putting BL and footnote be but the goal is more housing and BL. And then the other item we've been looking at is impacts of bringing footnote and I think I reverse it getting rid of footnote and that's right. And we literally is the tip of the iceberg we just got, you know, a good handle on what is currently allowed and what is sort of all these different sort of in worst case scenario versus you know maximum build out versus a few little tweaks so those are the only two items we've touched on and we haven't discussed at all with planning board, I think. But just from last night's zoning subcommittee meeting it just showed me how useful it was to have the planning staff Chris and Rob in active discussion with us. It immediately made the discussion take right turns that I would not have thought that it would have gone and so that really should be considered moving forward that it's not like committees all talking amongst themselves and then suddenly the planning staff you know, folds in so I'm not sure how that divides up work but I hope this work plan, this miracle work plan explains it all. See you next week. No, no, I don't. Again, I think I think I love the, the, how things kind of get talked like Doug mentioned that things this the rapport is really good within that zoning subcommittee. And if we can just capture that within our planning board meetings. I don't know why we can't, you know spend an hour or two hours and do the same. You know from from efficiency standpoint especially where we don't have a lot of project review items, you know in front of us at this time. So, but you know sounds like Chris and Rob will come up with some sort of proposal and I guess we go from there. Thank you, Doug. Yeah, I would also like to add that the predominant conversations in the planning board over the last, frankly, six months have been about the 40 our proposal. We have abruptly tabled that when we received direction from CRC and town council to start to look at these other zoning priorities. Thank you for that update Doug. With that, we are going to go to a mini public comment session because there has already been public comment I'm going to ask everyone to limit their comments to two minutes instead of three, since we've already had one public comment session. So, Pam I know I'm going to need your help here. Kathy Shane is first. All right. Hi Kathy. Hi, and I think I can do it in less than two minutes but I'll try not to speed read. I thought this was a great meeting. And I just want to go back to the substance on the work plan and a couple of comments. One is on the word design, and it seems to be thought of Chris when you talked about as a big consultant project that we have to go out and get something extra, which maybe to redo design everywhere we would. But I think if you start to focus on any of the zone so if it's the BL zone you can think about what what's going to look like and what kind of design features. You know, Dorothy's backyard front yard setbacks could be part of that it doesn't have to be big design it can be neighborhood design what's the look in the field of the neighborhood. And I think that's particularly important when you start talking about duplex triplex quadruplex whatever townhouses, and I've seen it in other zoning codes they just say what do we want these things to look like, you know front yards backyards porches. And secondly, I can't find the word sidewalk in our zoning code. And one of the things that does make neighborhoods and communities particularly as they get more dense is inability to walk and walk safely. I know when the sidewalk was put up on pine street up here in North Amherst. They started meeting their neighbors, because they walked on the sidewalk and they would meet their neighbors you couldn't walk on the street because it's really heavily traffic street. So to whatever extent we can on some of these neighborhoods colleges one of them when I walked there there are no sidewalks and people walk in the street now. If you put a lot more cars in it, we need to think about where people are going to walk. So that means think about the setback design. I think when you come back to us with this work plan what I'm hoping is you will do will have done interactive work at the staff level so it's not just adopt these, but really say what does it look like in a 3D way. I know your staff, Chris can do that. So these lot sizes that we've seen that zoning subcommittee done done what does it look if you build that out. And then the last is just a pure question when we talk about supplemental dwelling units. There's an accessory to develop dwelling unit that's in the same law that Mandy talked about, and it's set a statewide standard for what these are. So it's 900 square feet, or 50% of the width of the dwelling unit, the lesser of the two so you have a small primary unit, say 1000 square feet, it could only be 500 square feet. And my impression is that has to be statewide. So I don't know whether we come in and do our own versus we say take a look at what the state is done. So that's just a comment at the end. We design in small not just come wait to the end and do a big design but as we're looking at his own and talking about more housing what do we want to look like. Don't forget sidewalks and do please do do the interactive, including interactive mixed use and and apartments. Part of the people reason people are fleeing to mix use is because they can. There is no definition of what it is. So the two interact with each other. Thank you. Happy. Next up is going to be Michael Greenbaum. Michael, Michael you're muted. Can you hear me now. Yes, we can. Thank you very much. I have lots of thoughts about the organizational relationship things you're talking about but they tend to go back to the Charter so maybe I'll say them for the time in which you go into your charter review. No way down the road. My one substantive point is that I have opposed thinking about the chapter 40 are overlay for downtown, because I really have never thought of downtown as a neighborhood. I have never thought of downtown as the common inheritance of all of Amherst and even surrounding areas, and therefore I'm opposed to increased residents downtown. Although I am very much in favor of thinking of chapter 40 are in terms of village centers. So there was a comment earlier this evening about thinking about the village centers and downtown and much the same way. In fact, we're not the case if we could rethink downtown as our common property and think of the commercial establishment which I think has suffered quite a bit recently and entertainment and culture and those things not residents so that's one point the other point. I'm thinking ahead to the zoning bylaw seems to me a well written zoning bylaw should not have footnotes footnotes should be reserved for changes that either amended by the state. Or that are about subsequently down the line, and particularly footnotes that suggest exemptions to the bylaw that they are attached to. I would rather have a much. I would rather have a bylaw that includes flexibility where you want the flexibility in the body of the bylaw seems to me it's it's a very complicated and not a very happy situation when your footnotes sort of say pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. And that's the way I suspect they are often read now. And it seems to me it's important to preserve the difference between site plan review and special permit. Although I wish the names were more different so that people would not get confused by them. And to have something akin to the relationship between the landing board and zoning board remain I think separation of powers is a very important thing at every level of government. I think it's important for amity and for collaboration between these boards, but they should have very different purposes. And I think the distinction is a very important one for the town. Thank you. Thank you, Michael. Mora. I'm Mora. Mora, can you unmute yourself. I think you have to allow her to talk. I thought I had. Yeah, she is able. Because the only option I have is disabled. So, could you ask her to unmute. Yes, one of your options. Yes. And Mora, can you hear me. If you can, can you unmute please. Mora just unraised her hand. Janet is unmuted. Can we mute Janet again. Thank you. We're going to go to Pam and then we'll see if we can get more of the working again. So, I think I just got unmuted, correct. You are. Everything was going so quick. So you are able to speak. It was while you were talking to Mora, so I wasn't sure if it was me or Mora. I know. I just wanted to make a couple of comments on sort of the organization and structure of your, of your collaboration. The first point is when I go to a planning board. Meeting, I would look at their agenda and there was nothing besides zoning amendment priorities work plan on the agenda tonight. So it, it too took me by surprise that you might. And maybe not at this hour getting delve into the, the. I don't know. If, if in your organization of. Rolling the zoning subcommittee into the, the weekly or, or bi-weekly planning board meeting, it would seem very appropriate to list it as a joint meeting of the planning board and zoning subcommittee so that people were aware that there was going to be this working sec session. So I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point during that meeting. I find the, the collab. And it has to be a collaboration of town staff and zoning subcommittee because that is in fact where the nitty gritty gets discussed. And you've got to be able to go back and forth and ask questions of each other. To probe and understand the ramifications. That are currently on the planning board have actually not dealt with a whole lot of zoning in the past. And it is a learning, it is a learning process. And I absolutely commend you for getting up to speed by getting in there and dealing with the details. That is how you learn to do it. And so I appreciate having and seeing that, that that growth of understanding, because in fact, I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that the. Suggestions for zoning changes. Have some pretty significant ramifications. And I think the town simply needs to be able to. Way what those impacts are. And, and approve or disapprove of them. I think that's, that's all I really need to say, but I do appreciate. The C. R. C. to me. And I'm going to make sort of a corporate analogy. I see the C. R. C. as a sub set of the town council. And it really should be functioning at sort of executive level.  You know, town X and in Morocco. And the people on the ground sort of help make that happen. I think it's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. And I think that the city is kind of weighing in on every single zoning subcommittee meeting. Unless you're there as sort of a bystander as we are in the, in the town. Your role is to kind of set a direction and. These, the staff people, the zoning subcommittee, the planning board are all out there working to try to help. Formulate stuff. But it. I would find trying to attend a meeting with 12 people. To attend a meeting with 12 people and not get a word in edge wise. But that's maybe just my personality. Anyway. Smaller is better. And if, if the zoning subcommittee can get rolled up officially into the planning board conversation, that would be better than losing it altogether because I think it plays a key role in, in helping formulate the discussion. Thanks. Thank you, Pam. Pam, can we figure out a way. Fields out there. Can we figure out a way to get more in? We now have a new option for more, which is allowed to talk. So we're going to try. Hi, Mora. I got it now. We got it. We can hear you, Mora. I want to say that I have a lot of reservations about letting the planning staff do what the zoning subcommittee is doing. Not that they couldn't do as good a job or it may be even better, but it's done behind closed doors. And it was, it would be much nicer in the zoning subcommittee. People are given an assignment. They do the assignment. And I think it was better for everybody. And I don't, I think if the planning staff just works on things and then presents it at the end, we don't get that give and take. And I really worry about bringing the zoning subcommittee into the planning board meeting. Because even without a lot of people, the planning board meeting still seems to take two or three hours. And I don't think we'd get to those topics. And in as much of depth as it is at the zoning subcommittee. So sorry, Maria. I don't agree with you. And I think a meeting this size is really pretty unproductive to actually getting detailed works. Work done. It's okay for discussing the broad topics, but not for looking at the details. Thank you for that, Mara. With that. Oh, we got two more. Please keep your comments to two minutes. And then we're going to close this up with the end of these two more Ira. Hi, Ira. Hi. How are you? I just want to appreciate everyone who is now putting an accent on hearing from the public what we want as a town and what we are concerned with might be the repercussions of.  Et cetera. And also I just want to weigh in on. Keeping the zoning and planning. Separate. Just to repeat what Michael Greenbaum said, separation of powers. But also there's just obvious different styles that the discussions are having just based on what you're saying. And I think just mixing them into one big bowl. Is going to just kill everything that you are saying is what helps you think these things through. So thanks so much. Thank you, Ira. Hilda. Hi, Hilda. Hi. I just wanted to add that I was really pleased with the zoning subcommittee last week. I thought a lot was accomplished and a lot was discussed. In real date. And I would hate to see. It lost. The one thing that I wanted to say that in 40 years of observing planning and zoning board meetings, first for the League of Women voters and now for the ending. For the first time in 40 years, I have seen the planning board actually doing some planning. And I want to commend them for that. And I don't want to lose that. A long. By. Mixing it in with a, with a regular planning board meeting where they're dealing with other issues. I really. Want to commend you folks for finally doing some planning, which the planning board is supposed to do. And please don't lose it. Thank you, Hilda. With that, I believe. Jack, I see one hand on our side. Jack, I'm about ready to, I think. There's nothing else I'm ready to adjourn, but I'm not going to declare CRC adjourned yet. Jack. Okay. So I, I with, with that said, I was wondering if we could do like a straw poll. Onks the planning board. Because we have this. You know, we have these goals. Presented to us from town council. We have. You know, a fairly tight schedule. It seems like for February, March. And I was just wondering if we do a straw poll. For Chris and, and, uh, Rob's information. Because they're going to recommend to us. What they think should happen. But if we met weekly. On Wednesdays. You know, versus by bi-weekly. And I'm wondering, you know, how that would. Work with everyone's schedule. I think it's good for me in general. But that would facilitate, I think. You know, combination of the, the, the zoning subcommittee items within the planning board. So I'm just throwing that out there. And is that, you know, is that a fair thing to. So, so before I adjourn, because once I adjourn, I think that ends the. Item for all of us. Because it was a joint meeting. So I will not adjourn yet. With that. With that. I think it's good for me in general, but that would facilitate. I think. You know, combination of the, the zoning subcommittee items within the planning board. So I'm just throwing that out there and is that, you know, I think it's good for me in general. I think it's good for me in general. With that request from the planning board chair. I would suggest if that struggle is taken, and I'm happy to call on each planning board member at the request of the chair to do that. That. The suggestion from given the conversation I've heard is that not every meat week have. Maybe one week devoted to. That's a good option. I think that's a good option. I think that's a good option. I think that's a good option. I think that is a devoted to zoning discussions because that would give Chris and Rob more time to potentially, if that's a consideration. That's a good potential. Option as you're thinking about this and for members to think about. Yohana before I do a straw poll of people are willing. Yohana. Thanks for the time. My question is, are you thinking every Wednesday. Add in finitum or every Wednesday for like. I would go back to buy weekly. That's my interesting. It is like, because I, I, I know that town council is wanting to get some. Resolution. On the top priorities there. So. I. It's a temporary thing that we would, you know, meet weekly. And I'm just wondering. If plenty more members. That's an option. And, and then certainly that would. You know, incorporate the zoning subcommittee.  Because we're meeting more frequently. It just seems like there's some urgency that, that we resolve. Some zoning priorities. So. I just wanted to throw that out there. I just wanted to say that. I just wanted to say that. And it would only be two, you know, like, like. February, March. And. Just a straw pole. And I don't know if Chris, do you think that is something that. Would. You would entertain or, or is that crazy? Can I speak, Randy? Yes. Okay. For my standpoint, meeting every week with the planning board would be. I could do that. As long as we don't also have zoning subcommittee meetings. So if that's the decision you're making, I think we could make that work. Tom. Sure. I was going to agree. I think that meeting every week, you know, right now we'd be meeting every week as the zoning subcommittee. I think if we were able to commit that time. We could actually carve that time out of every. Planning board meeting. I think it would be useful and productive to have the other two members participating in those meetings as well. So. I'm all for. Consolidating those two into. Just the planning board meetings, but doing it weekly and making sure we carve out the time to do the work we need to do. Yeah. Thank you. I believe there is Andrew, Maria, Doug, and Janet that haven't commented yet on Jack's thoughts. Andrew. I'm fine with it as well. I think like right now we're meeting the subcommittees meeting. Every week and the planning boards meeting every other week. So we would be taking a meeting out of the schedule. And so I'm in favor of that. I think relates to me sort of the, the advantages are we get the other two planning board members in. And then I think as long as we've got support from Chris and and company. I would, I would certainly advocate for that. Thank you, Doug. Yeah, I'm fine with that in general. I happen to have a half hour obligation next Wednesday evening, but I don't know if I could, I may be able to move that. And otherwise I'd just duck out for 30 minutes. But beyond that, I'm pretty available. Thank you, Maria. I think I'm available. I just want to make sure if, if every other planning board meeting is the zoning subcommittee meeting, is that what you're proposing so that every first and third Wednesday is a planning board meeting with no zoning subcommittee meetings. And then the second and fourth. Are there zoning subcommittee meetings and that way. Chris and Rob can. Have time. I guess I would like to see their work plan first, I guess before we commit to anything in case, you know, they need more time than. Every two weeks to help with the research. So, but otherwise, I think I can swing that. And I'm not commit to it until we know the work plan. I think Jack's. Purpose of Jack, I won't put origin in your mouth, Jack. Yeah, I mean, I just want to throw it out there for Chris and Rob. As an option. And it looks like we're kind of good. With meeting weekly and whether it's. You know, whether the focus each week is, is on our normal, you know, project review versus. You know, zoning. You know, bylaw topics is to be determined, but I feel like we all want to get something done. Given the town councils. You know. You know, interest, you know, during the next two months. And it sounds like we can do it. So. Sounds like, you know, it looks like there's some efficiencies here. But I deferred it. Chris and Rob are going to tell us what they want to do and then, and then we'll. See what can happen, you know, after that, but. I think did we hear from everybody. We didn't from planning board is Janet and Doug, I think raised his hand again. Janet, if you've got anything and then Doug. I could meet every Wednesday. And so I'm not sure my preference would be, you know, an hour and a half, like maybe the first hour and a half on zoning issues and then regular meeting or what, but I do think it's important that. We make it really consistent and signal to the public what we're doing. And so maybe we should just list that as a joint planning board zoning subcommittee for that hour and a half to kind of force us into that structure. So I'm fine with meeting weekly on that. And I, I, you know, would like to work in a way that would really help the planning department work on stuff. And I think that back and forth will be good for us. I would like not to vote to kill the zoning subcommittee because it's not on the agenda. And also it seems like it's been this very effective mechanism that we're going to be doing. And I think that we're going to be doing a lot of work on that. And I think that we're going to be doing the, the vibe of the zoning subcommittee on the planning boards. I say, let's keep the zoning subcommittee on the back burner, see if the vibe can be extended. This might become too much in the meetings might become four hours. And we all know that last hour, a lot of us don't really function. And stuff like that. So I'm fine with meeting weekly. I feel like we have to be clear about, you know, to the public and to ourselves what, what, what our schedule is and what we're working on. So the zoning subcommittee typically takes its own minutes. And the planning board has had Pam and Chris doing the minutes. So going to weekly might increase the staff obligations on minutes in a way that I just hope Chris will, and Pam will think about while they're putting together the work plan. Thank you for that. And I would just from CRC's point of view, I would just add to Chris and Rob a suggestion of as you're putting together a work plan and thinking about what meetings might be discussed at what given conversation today, think about when joint meetings between CRC and some subset or full planning board meetings would be most appropriate from your thinking of point of view in terms of discussion and all to maybe. I would just add that we have a proposal from that point of view to for us to jump off with when we talk about it on Tuesday. Because we would value your input on when you think. A joint meeting would be most helpful to the planning department. Any final words on zoning priorities? Yes. Seeing none, I want to say thank you to the planning board for hosting us. Thank you for taking two and a half hours out of your meeting to host us and have this very valuable conversation. And I also want to say thank you. On behalf of the full town council, I guess. For jumping right in to talk about the zoning priorities that the town council has asked the town manager to do and thank you to the planning department and to Chris and Rob in particular, but I know it's not just you two that are going to be dealing with this. It's your entire departments and all the staff at the department and all the staff at the meeting too that are dealing with it to. To help us figure something out with related to zoning. And to everyone. The rest of the CRC agenda is items not anticipated. We don't have any. And with that, I just want to say, I think CRC is looking forward to working with everyone. To discuss zoning and planning. In this town as we move forward over the next year. We're looking forward to working with all of you. We're looking forward to working with all of you. We're looking forward to working with all of you here. So thank you. And with that, I'm going to adjourn the CRC portion of the meeting at 9. 11 p.m. Thank you, everyone. Thank you, Pam. Welcome. Good night, everyone. Good night. So, right. So we can move. To. The next topic is zoning. Bylaw site plan review, review, criteria and design guidelines. Section 11.2417 regarding minimizing intrusion of lighting. View and discussion. So I will certainly, you know, I hand that over to Janet and let her. Thank you. It seems like we always have this later. I don't know if I can get this early. It's the later, but I do. Very quickly. So anyway, section 11.2417 was. Part of the Emily Dickinson permit hearing. And on that, the, the lighting was upcast on the buildings down, downcast on the light. The lights in the buildings were until 10. And then I think the path went off at, you know, in the last soul left. And so, you know, during that discussion, members raised two, two issues about the bylaw section. Does all lighting need to be downcast except for on lit signs. And do all lights need to be turned off after business hours, except for safety or security lights. And when I looked at the. The text of the section, it said the goal. The goal was to minimize intrusion of lighting and protect adjacent buildings. And that was the whole thing. But so I looked at the legislative history. And a shout out to Hilda Greenbaum, who basically told me exactly the year to look at. And from leading the legislative history, it was very clear to me that all the lighting had to be downcast and turned off after business hours, except for the safety lights and the lit lights. And that was those two sentences were added in 2007 in fall town meeting. So I can't, that doesn't happen that often in town meeting, but I did when I was there. And so the planning board member who presented it to how meeting said the changes were. For both special permit and site plan review criteria. And it, this is intended to protect residential properties from light intrusion from commercial properties. So it directs that all exterior lighting be shielded and allowed to be