But the recording is going. So take it away. Sounds good. Thanks very much. Actually, when we do the recorded student conversations on campus when I'm teaching, there's an obligatory warning message that pops up saying that this meeting is being recorded. I see what we're doing. We don't have that just so that all of a sudden people know they need to start behaving themselves. First of all, thanks very much to everyone for coming. This is the first meeting of the media and entertainment special interest group. We did have a meetup that I'll sketch for everybody what maybe is already a week and a half, two weeks ago even, which was tangentially related to this but not having been at the meetup is of no consequence. As David the other David David be just mentioned this is a pretty small group today so maybe we should just all go around and introduce ourselves very quickly because I imagine that there are some instances in which people are not already acquainted with one another. My name is David McFadgen. I'm faculty at UCLA teaching comparative literature and musicology and digital humanities. So my interest in blockchain and the interest in creating this group came specifically from that from creating tools that will help to combat some persistent issues. These are the piracy. Maybe I should call out people's names, unless we interrupt one another so as far as my screen is arranged, john you would be next. All right. Hello everyone. My name is john bower. I've met both the David's before so hello to both of you. And thanks for the invite here. I was not at the meetup. But this is my first time joining. I currently work at Pandora where the music streaming service not the jewelry company. Sometimes I have to purpose that and have had an interest in blockchain for a while now specifically in what can be done in the music industry for with a ledger with a shared ledger. We've run some experiments at Pandora. It's been a while now haven't come back to it in a minute. But still very much interested in what's possible and excited for the evolution of the entire technology and want to keep up with it in case the evolution and my or our needs at the company intersect. So I would love to follow along and looking forward to meeting all of you. Thanks. Right. Right. So you know the moment I mentioned his name you dropped out Sebastian. Hello, good evening everyone. I'm calling in from the Netherlands. And it's my second time. I'm able to attend this group. I'm the chairman of the ICC foundation, which has been developing over the last four years the content or asset identifier ICC, which we might be talking about in this call as well. And I'm working on a new startup called lithium, which uses content certificates for trusted digital content licensing. Thank you. Would you like to say a word? Certainly. Hello, David. Hello, everybody. My name is Heidi piece. I'm calling in right now from the desert. About two hours north of the Grand Canyon. So my apologies for not having the bandwidth for visual. But it's a pleasure to be here. David, thank you so much for inviting me. I'm very honored to be in this group. I am the, I guess the original co-founder of blockchain at UCLA with David, and then left UCLA and founded a group called the Los Angeles blockchain lab, which has been collaborating on projects with different projects at UCLA University of Southern California University of California, Irvine, as well as with Los Angeles City Los Angeles County, and we worked on projects for Panasonic Lamborghini. And we pretty much collaborate with the leading businesses in Southern California government officials and academics. And we also have a an impact facing initiative, which is focused on helping women and disadvantaged youth have more accessibility to blockchain. And then I have on the side also my startup, which is coa. We are helping artists influencers, amateur athletes entertainers of all sorts to fundraise using token on token economics and as well NFTs. So I really look forward to whatever project we end up working on in this group. And thank you again for having me. Thank you very much. Sergio. I'm Sergio and I'm a software engineer for Arena World. And I'm new like to the blockchain space and I just want to like learn more about it. Would you care to say anything more? No, not really. Okay, that's good. Greg, would you care to say a word? Sorry, David, was that one to me? Sure. Let's see if I can get a video here. Morning. Good evening, everyone. My name is Greg scary. I have for years been involved in the the blockchain space working with the company called El Toros is a solutions architect. We've done a number of pilots and implementations in predominantly in hyper ledger stacks, mostly fabric. We've helped off and on to help coordinate the hyper ledger Los Angeles meetup group. So just here to always had interest in music and the the artistic content realm. So just hoping to help in that capacity. However, I can. That sounds great. Brett you come back online. Would you like to say a word? Yes, I'm here. Good morning all I'm up in Canada here it's freezing and I'm embarking on a journey since 2018 on building out something on fabric that would be an all inclusive participation by everyone within a a production film production from a cameraman all the way up to actors, actresses, etc. That would through tokenomics participate in the funding and the profitability of a of a production but in essence bringing all contracts onto a chain. Every sector of accounting every every every moving parts of a production. And all the participants in a production on to a on to a blockchain. That's my, my, my goal. I've been involved with the blockchain type products since Bitcoin in 2012. It's exciting stuff and I'm happy to be here with all of you folks. That's great. Whereabouts in Canada. I'm just north of Toronto in the ski territory that's opening up in a week finally. Yeah, I just want my brother lives in Toronto. I'm just north of trial. Thank you, David. Thank you for everything David by the way. Welcome. I mean, I've just opened the door.  So let's wait and see what happens. And that's all the David by the way David. As well as well. Thank you so much. I'm happy to help. Matthews. Hi, I'm Matt Thomas on the lead architect at IBM telecom and media labs. I've done a lot of work with blockchain and telco David was very familiar with it. And we've done quite a lot of work with media also add sales and a whole bunch of other areas and Amman is also, you know, both Amman and I part of the same team. And I'm on will be introducing some himself shortly also actually just by coincidence he's the last person to jump on so yeah. I was going to say I can I can go next then. So I'm in short for I'm in the same as Matthews mentioned, we both are part of the telecom entertainment labs and IBM, and I'm a specialist and architect in this group and they've been involved in the telecom sick as well with David and others and happy to contribute on the media front as well and also to learn about the exciting use cases use cases that everyone is working on. Fantastic that's everybody. Thank you very much. The need for these introductions will hopefully lessen each time. So what I want to do is try and rattle through the, the, the official aspects of the meeting very quickly because they're the least interesting. So, just to pass over these bullet points we did have a meetup the data which I can't remember that something like a week or two weeks ago. So in the chat, you'll see in an open conversation, the three topics that tended to float to the surface, just as a general intro to some of the things that people in this group thus far been interested in. One was remuneration. So you can see the particular URLs that were proposed in the chat to was nft specifically regarding wax. So there again you can see some references to look at your leisure. And also asset IDs as well. So, we don't need to stick to those now in fact we won't but those are thus far the initial topics of interest. Second thing I have listed here proposal regarding minutes. I'm not a fan of bureaucracy at all. I have a pronounced dislike for it. So you will probably know that one of the wonderful things that soon does is that it allows us to save the chat as a text document. So what I'm inclined to do is the same as I did here with the meetup is instead of official minutes, I'll send everybody two things one will be the actual full chat conversation later on as a text file again, but also all cherry pick it so as and when topics come up with reference with URLs or clickable links and so on. I'll send those to people separately so there's an opportunity to ignore what's in the chat. If you don't have time to check it in real time. David one real quick observation about chat when you're talking about chat you're not talking about the zoom chat I think but the permanent group chat correct. Sorry. Yeah, I misspoke. Absolutely. Yeah. So just so you are aware I dropped the link to that the media entertainments a group chat on hyperledger chat server in the zoom chat here people want to go over there. And that's nice because it's permanent doesn't go away when the zoom meetings are over. The next step is, oh geographical dispersion. Just having done thus far among the members of the group a quick survey of who lives where we were fairly evenly distributed across four major regions one would be west coast of the states other one would be East Coast, then continental Europe, and then Asia by which I mean southeast Asia. So that's one person thus far in Africa, but nonetheless, given those divisions. It makes sense to have to meet up time so what we'll be doing is doing as much as we can offline and meeting once a month for each of two groups. So one will be this time which is useful to people arguably on both sides of the states and Europe, but for our Asian colleagues not so much at all most of them are probably still asleep. So we'll have a meeting every third week if you like in the month or every third week in each month, in order to accommodate them and they'll be meeting as far as I'm concerned in the evenings, as opposed to the morning so at least that by once a month everybody gets to see as many of their colleagues as they can. One or two things we have left to do in order to become official hyper ledger group which I'm sure David will pick me up on if I'm not quite right but one is to do an introduction video. One is to do a blog post which will just be a brief summary of what we're we're interested in as a group would that be correct David. blog post for sure I mean as far as the video that's more optional we do have the video to your point we did do the meet up and we have a video recording of that I mean I think it's helpful to have video content about the group it's your choice do we want to point people to that recording or do you want to make a short new recording about about what the group is doing. But yeah blog post.  That's great. So we're going to have a large snifter and a cigar. That'd be very sophisticated complain about. Right. Exactly. I got a tweet jacket somewhere. That's awesome. Yeah so whenever you do that we'll put it on the website and that will be the official launch. Absolutely. And if we do in agree on what what it is we'd like to build together something of mutual interest then logically we would then apply to you guys to set up a hyper ledger lab with the GitHub page correct. That really speaks to you know my maybe my role and maybe I didn't have a chance to introduce myself so I'll do that really quick so I'm a hyper ledger staff member my role is basically to support the group with whatever you're doing and there are other groups in the community. For example around healthcare telecom a range of different groups in each group does a different set of things because I think the challenges to adoption in those industries are obviously specific to that industry so some groups have done coding projects where they've created a repo in our labs structure where they collaborate together other groups have done other things other groups are more research based they've created for example white papers. So if this group wants to do a coding project yeah we have I mean we're an open source coding community we have infrastructure for that so that that really speaks to I'm here I want to hear what the group is wanting to do and then whatever it is that you want to do I'm here to support with that so but yeah if coding is something this group wants to do we can certainly support. I actually I've just put up on the chat link to one of our hyper ledger pages thus far where we are asked if we so wish, either in addition to something like a white paper, instead of something like a white paper as David pointed out a code based project. So one of the things that I proposed and I would love input on this I would love to know where it sounds interesting where it sounds amateurish where maybe you guys can come in with your skill sets. The link I've put up is to something that uses the media that I've got as just a test case, and my hope was that we could use it as fuel for a platform that would be of wide interest to a wide number of people. This is a 20 second sketch. A lot of what I officially teach UCLA is to do with Eastern Europe so you can imagine because of the work I've done there with musicians for a long time. Piracy is a huge problem. So I built up an enormous data set of audio files over the last 20 years or so and recently when I had digitized the whole thing from all kinds of formats. Something like two million files. And because I donated all the music to a museum in Los Angeles that I'm looking at basically the potential for two types of platform, one would be as Philip. I forgot to ask Philip to introduce himself he will in a second one that Philip says in his world is referred to as heritage media. So something that I call museum data sets. So that will be a public facing platform that would monitor let's say the official borrowing and usage of our tribal material and the other one is to do with musicians who are alive and kicking and maybe even working in an independent sphere. But basically people who are not being properly recompensed for the ways in which their music has been employed by radio stations by shopping malls by fashion shows by anybody who decides to actually use it. So if you take a look at that proposal when you have time that'd be super. And let me know if it sounds like something of interest. And secondly, where you think it could be improved I would be much obliged. And if you reject it out of hand that's also great and we can go off and do something if you like more academic like produce the theoretical white paper together but I just wanted to get the ball rolling with the potential workable data set. So that's that we're getting very close to the end of the official stuff. Oh, there is a grant now available for one of us to mentor a logically an up and up and coming individual with whom we work so in my case that might be something like a student. And David, do you want to quickly sketch that program because you say that something like maybe five or $6,000 available to educate and enlighten somebody who is very much interested in getting new or improved that's with hyperlegion. Absolutely. Yeah, so every year hyperlegion has been running a paid mentorship program where we do to we connects.  So that could be one of the hyperlegion projects like fabric, for example, Andy, or it could be one of these special interest groups you know any, any existing community member with a project that they think would be a good fit for a student and that they want to be a mentor for. We want to connect them with students who are excited to get involved, you know, our goal is to obviously get more people familiar with hyperledger get more people familiar with, you know, contributing to open source that fits with the Linux Foundation's mission. So we do have a budget each year to run these projects we're at the process right now where we're inviting the existing community members to draft up some project ideas. So if we step in the project and we have a committee that reviews those and picks those and then those become the projects that students can then step up and, you know, apply for. And then we'll go through the matching project process to connect those existing the existing community members with the projects with those students. So if anybody here in the group is interested in that if that seems like something this group is wanting to do the application process is open right now I think I think I sent a link to the list about that but I'll double check to make sure. Yeah, you did actually I'm just dropping it right into the chat right there so there's the link again for anybody who thinks they're in a position to help somebody grow these are the technical expertise. So I think that's all I wanted to say. As you can tell I rattle through the bureaucratic stuff as fast as possible we still have a good two thirds of the get together left which is, I think a fine balance between me and everybody else.  So this is Philip Richard who is by strange coincidence associated with a blockchain initiative at University College London, which is where I went for my BA in MA so this isn't nepotism or anyway, I had no idea that initially Philip had those connections but he wanted to bring up the question of whether or not what we do on hyperledger might have a potential to grow outside of hyperledger as well. So, Philip. Good morning everybody and good evening for the other time zones. So I'm policy engineer chronologically first dealing with copyrighted million entertainment for the last 12 years, which means that I'm dealing with policies. I did that in America with the MMA. In Europe, with the different directive we have. And I'm currently commissioned by the European Commission to run an initiative which is called copyright and new technologies. So that is my job as policy engineer. I'm also a system engineer by trade, working on a potential solution for copyright register. So here, I'm happy to see colleagues, Sebastian post from ICC. We are working with ICC, and also the colleague from IBM, my little startup is an IBM partner. And interestingly, what we discussed with IBM is portability. So we'll come surely back to to this. So that's in a nutshell, where I'm coming from. To one, David know that we should start with this question about hyperledger portability, etc. Oh please yeah and then I think once, once we feel you've got some meaningful answers that I'd like to open up the rest of the session to general discussion regarding what people would like this group to become in general. So what we have done including with the colleague from ICC is that we have created a minimum viable demonstrator of our concept. So we start with concept first, and then we demonstrate the concept. This is not yet a prototype. It's just before the prototype. And when we were doing so, we opted for a way which is if you want blockchain agnostic in the sense that it can be developed with hyperledger, it can be developed with Ethereum, it can be developed with other blockchain protocol. So that was a statement that we did when we were developing this demonstrator. Then I saw appearing through UCL Center for Blockchain Technologies, the invitation from David, and I saw that he was interested in a domain which is very important for us, which is the user experience user interface in front of a copyright register. So the basic idea is that people using copyright register should not be gurus in intellectual property and should not have a PhD in blockchain. So that's the basic idea. And when I saw David invitation, I thought, ah, that's something interesting because we need something like this. So that was my first reaction. My first reaction was then, of course, to join. Then the second one was the question about hyperledger in the sense that will this group be focused on hyperledger? Or is this group also focused on the functionality of, let's call it an intelligent metadata ingester that you need to place in front of any type of copyright register. So that is a fundamental question for us. We are in discussion with European member states, so we discussed with government. And you can imagine that for a government to go in the idea of a national copyright infrastructure, that national copyright infrastructure has to be portable, cannot depend on one vendor or the next. So interestingly, this is a discussion that we have launched with with IBM without even discussing about hyperledger. So we are now entering a new phase of discussion with IBM to really go deeply in what does it mean to be portable with something like a copyright register. And what does it mean to use standard or to trigger standardization. So that's the question we have. And we would be happy, of course, and I would be happy to stay in the group, even if the group is purely hyperledger, because I'm sure that we, I will learn a lot. Next to the first invitation of David, which is about the UX UI interface with blockchain system, where you can imagine we are working for songwriters we are working for photographers or journalists. They should not even know that blockchain is in the backyard of the thing that they have on an app on their smartphone on laptop. So just to open that up as a general question of the first of several general questions, what about the issue of portability does anybody have any advice or experience. And secondly, the issue of UX UI. And the same bed, does anybody have any advice or expertise they'd like to share one question about the portability is, I know when we were looking at hyperledger before obviously there was the kind of the idea of a private, you know permissions ledger or public in terms of portability, do you have any thoughts on, if you prefer to kind of compute in the cloud or whether these would be kind of private is the wrong word but you know a private collection of servers or something like that for whether this would be open to everybody on a cloud. If it's somebody who's had experience on both sides, what would you recommend as a, as a architectural decision. I cannot because because for the moment we are scratching our heads so we don't know we are looking for the right solution. So, one of the first thing we have as an insight if you want is that we make a distinction between the type of distributed ledger you need for a register, which is dealing only with assertion, and the type of distributed ledger that you need for licensing distributing payment, etc, which is focused on transaction. So this is, this is the first distinction that we developed. So what we call assertion oriented distributed ledger, which is good enough for a register and transaction oriented distributed ledger. Which is, which is necessary for licensing distribution and payment. What the next question of course is permission permission less etc. That is a question that we did not yet solved, even for the register. So we, we are thinking about different properties that the register must have. Typically, the fact that it has to deal with different policies. The policies might be different from one country to the next. I mean the policies for attestation and the policies might be different from one sector to the next, typically between photography and music. So, the status of thinking is currently in our white paper which is public. And we are entering very soon, probably within a month now, a new phase of development, and that's aiming to develop prototype. The prototype as an deadline of the end of June. And while we are making the prototype which might be something that we will throw to the bin, right it's we prototype to advance our research and development. And while we do that, we will go much further on paper about the question of platforms and in the, what we call platforms include the blockchain protocol. So that that is one set of statements so you see we are, we are wondering we are not the one with the statement we are more the one with the questions. We are what we have also done also with ICC is that we submitted to proposal for something which is called here in Europe, the European Blockchain Service Infrastructure and the European Commission is ordering a European Blockchain Service Infrastructure which is an infrastructure. But they ask the consortium bidding for it to prove that that infrastructure will take some boxes of scalability security resistance to quantum attacks, etc, etc. And in the use case that they prescribe to prove that they, they kept all use case today said to the consortium well if you want to prove that your infrastructure makes sense and take all those boxes. You can use either the use case of the copyright infrastructure or use case of circular economy, more in the direction of supply chain and green deal, etc. So with ICC, we have offered to to consortia the possibility to use all prototype to test the blockchain infrastructure. So, all of this to tell you, we are still wondering we are still absolutely in a phase of research and development. You can call it research development and innovation that's how they call it in Europe. And we have many questions that explain of course why I'm so keen to join this group, because I can find element of answers. Does that help with an answer. Yeah, totally. Thank you. Okay, cool. So I think maybe if there's no general debate or discussion or disagreement even in. Sorry, I've got a dog. On the issue at the moment I think what I should do to sit down together with Philip and we'll come up with something resembling an initial statement these are the portability and I'll include it on the project proposal. And then if over time it proves not to be the wisest approach we can always change it but I think it's something that I should formulate as soon as I can. And you popped up. Did you want to say something just to add to what Philip mentioned to distinguish the different purposes for different ledgers like Philip mentioned some kind of a registration ledger and a transaction ledger. And I thought I would like to add the the identity ledger, because that is probably something we have a ledger is the most advanced and set ledger at this moment as far as I overview a bit of a complex heterogeneous environment regarding decentralized or self sovereign identities, because these self sovereign identities will be used probably as a use case quite quite soon. There are a lot of interesting projects that are quite far ahead of in comparison to the media industries, and they will probably work on hyper ledger India or other hyper ledger technology. So, for me, it's especially interesting to see how that can how that interoperability or portability, as you mentioned, could actually could actually work if we work with, let's say two or three purpose different differently purpose ledgers, and how they can interoperate, because that would require, at least for a project, or for all projects, a feature which would be to work with at least open ledgers in the sense that they can be read. Maybe they are permissioned in the sense regarding who can, who may write and put provide information on the on these ledgers but in order to be interoperable at least they need to be open and that's also something that is relevant for, I think, dealing and connecting media assets through identifiers and related metadata and licensing information that you somehow have the opportunity to access and discover these metadata information. Thanks. This might be a good place for for john to jump into john, did you want to come on and tell us a bit more about the work that you've done at Pandora. Well, it's it's been a couple years now so let's see what I can do from memory here to me. So, I'll just give the super super high level if you guys have questions that might jog my memory to be honest. It's more of an internal kind of hack project, and we rallied a team around it worked on it for a while, have not worked on it recently, but at the time we were interested in creating a permission to ledger for for rights for for song rights and in specifically our use case that we're trying to solve for was that as a, as a DSP and Pandora just like Spotify or Apple Music were delivered lots and lots of albums via DDEX all the time, and the rights aren't always in sync with reality. It's up to a major label, for example, to, if they acquire a new catalog to the old the old owner needs to send a takedown request to a DSP, the new owner needs to redeliver that catalog. And so sometimes these are out of sync. And a lot of times these are hand these situations, put a DSP like Pandora in the middle, where if the owners themselves the rights owners do not are not in sync with their deliveries, a DSP like Pandora maybe playing a song, or an album. That has already switched hands. And so when we go to pay out that royalty we may be paying the, the party that no longer owns the copyright or maybe it's not the copyright but the license. And so a DSP will always end up in the middle of this, when the new rights owner says hey, you know, we're not getting paid appropriately or the old owner says hey these, these checks are mixed up. And then an audit has to happen at the DSP level. So, ideally, we were looking at permission ledger to basically automate this process, remove the DSP from the middle of the situation and allow parties to share their permissions to resolve those conflicts between them. And that's basically what we set out to prototype. And I don't know if we got to the official prototype phase but we were using at the time hyper ledger composer, because it was sort of a time limited exercise wasn't fully budgeted. And I think we got to the point where we had a proof of concept where we said this could work. We did not attempt at scale. We, this would be intended to be somewhat of a private ledger between rights owners. But again, we didn't go too much farther than that Pandora was then acquired by Sirius XM and you can imagine that we've had our hands full with lots of other internal projects for the last couple years since then so the interest has never waned on my part but that's about where we left off with Pandora. We have questions for John. I had a quick question. Thank you so much for the overview. When you were, did you actually make it through the, the, into a proof of concept at all and were you able to test it out. So, in our context we made it as far as having having imported rights with theoretical partners, theoretical different owners, and being able to perform updates in which we could share the history of the transactions per participant. Which was our initial hypothesis, and we didn't go much further than that. We were, we were also running this all on the local computers, we didn't really do like formal deploys or anything like that. And I'm just curious in that limited testing did you find it was pretty painless or was it still pretty sticky. So this was several years ago, and I haven't caught up with you know the latest and greatest tech on hyper ledger so this may be a biased or an outdated perspective. We chose hyper ledger for a few reasons over, you know, a theory and or something like that. We thought hyper ledger having a private ledger would give us would sort of give us the situation that we could sell to the rest of the industry for buying, knowing their sensitivities and things like that. And so we actually found that it was quite pleasant to work with at the time. This was with composer. This is before it was originally discontinued. So, again, I don't know what the current state of all those tools are. And we probably would have gone with like a go implementation if we had actually been formally budgeted and we had the time, but we use composer because it was kind of a proof of concept hackathon environment. And it worked. I mean it was it was cool. Being able to write some of those things in JavaScript. Yeah, it was accessible. It seemed to work. We had some questions which we never got to things about you know how could we scale the transactions. At the time there were some white papers showing us that it theoretically possible to scale to 800 or 1000 transactions a second. We never tested any of that this was strictly just kind of one at a time situation. It was just functional. I mean, you know, we, we, we realize that if we were ever budgeted and we put time to this, this could be a reality. Thank you. So against that back against that backdrop and as you say composer has sort of to a large degree faded away. What two years later would you think what could ensure this group do what would you like to see it. I don't really have the answer that to be honest I haven't spent a lot of time even thinking about this in the last year or so I think the opportunity to join this group and to get the wheels moving again is what I'm interested in so I don't know that I have the answer to that right away. Again my interest has never waned in this. The blockers that we faced internally in Pandora were more of a budget and timing perspective not necessarily an excitement there were people that were excited about that there were just other priorities. This is the challenge at least two years ago for a general blockchain solution of L and, by the way, we did present this to the DDEX plenary. So we did actually present our work to a larger DDEX consortium. I think that the feedback we got at the time was just more of why do we need trust. Why do we need enhanced trust in these transactions were a clue. We already trust each other we already have to trust you know Sony already has to trust Warner all these things. Obviously I don't share that that opinion but that's some of the feedback we got was this seems like a work around to something that we could already build with existing tools. Of course, we can't we couldn't build that with existing tools because trust is not, you know, implicit in explicit in those things so I don't know that the industry group that we talked to fully understood the benefits of putting trust into the system, as opposed to into personalities. But I still think that there's a huge need for something like that. So I don't know that I can answer that question right now I think that's part of what I would like to get re-energized in by being part of this group and talking about it and I'm sure I have an opinion about that soon, but I'm just now getting to think about it again. Right, that would be a reasonable point at which to bring Greg, because this is his experience but before we do that, I noticed already. Philippe and Jerome who's joined us from France they both have their hands up maybe Jerome seems you're the new voice would you like to make your point. Yes, thank you. Just let me put the camera. Yes, thank you. So this is really interesting too. I discovered the project presented by John from Pandora. The key that didx is really what makes rights management work today in the music industry is a set of tens of protocols, six dictionaries that help any actor understand what is a track, what is a publisher and make them interoperate so everybody can interoperate. Thanks to didx. The question is how can we create trust for new entrant in the didx system and I share an opinion about the fact that the big companies which are already involved in this mechanism of rights management already trust each other. The question is more for smaller one or new ones who don't trust each other yet. We need a solution to create trust so this is a real need and in the past there were some third party who were proposed to make trust so there was a company which was called transparency rights management which was counting the number of plays on YouTube and reporting this place to a PRS for music in the UK there was the same thing in France with Dailymotion and Sassam the French copyright organization so it was a third party and the question when blockchain technology came up was how to dismiss these third parties and it was a real opportunity. So I have a question for John because you started working at Pandora on Hyperledger Fabric if I understand correctly, Sassam PRS for music and ASCAP the American copyright organization tried to save some identifiers couples with the recording identifier and the copyright identifier in the Hyperledger Fabric. Did you discuss with them about interoperability between streaming platform and copyright organizations? No, we did not, we did not, our goals were not actually to interrupt with a PRO at least at the time. This was strictly just to handle the rights management issue from a DSP perspective DSP between a label or rights owner perspective. That's that was the narrow niche that we looked at. Philip, did you want to add to that? Yes, and it's almost like bridging both John and Jerome, because I was listening carefully to John and it reminded me the IBM project with ASCAP PRS and Sassam, which is not running anymore. And some entities have taken over this ID and they are not using blockchain to solve that problem. So that's one statement, but I'm very keen to discuss this further. The point is that we dealt a little bit with that issue of reconciliation of ISRC's and ISWC's after companies like Pandora or Spotify have streamed one song or the other. And at one moment, it was around June, July last year, we started to discuss, while instead of fixing the problem, so matching those identifiers, post streaming, could we do something to prevent the problem to arise? And after many weeks of discussion, but concluding the discussion around October, November last year, we found a way to prevent the problem, but that way to prevent the problem is based on moral right, which is less used in America than it is in Europe. And the principle moral right is the obligation of attribution. So if we start to build in data and data management, something on the principle of moral right, we can potentially prevent the issue to occur. So I'm quite excited I must say by this first hour, because there are stuff I would like to discuss with everybody, but also in particular with John and Pandora as we continue to work on this. And I will, I'm just giving warning that I must leave in five minutes. That's okay. Thank you very much sorry that noise was this that was pit bull versus ups. So I apologize for that. It was resolved peacefully. Next we have Philip you've got a chance to speak. Eric. You've had a few minutes. Yeah. Right, right. Sorry, it was just following john's discussion and the question that comes up quite a lot is that we're already working in a trusted ecosystem. What, how is this going to change things. I think the, the, the word that Philip used is, and that I've seen is that it's more about reconciliation, and it makes the reconciliation process. And perhaps a little bit easier and automated more so than trying to find bad actors and trust like that. So that was my only comment. Great. I mentioned earlier. Oh, Heidi, your hand popped up. Yep. Oh, Heidi, that's a thumbs up. Yes, I was just agreeing with you. Good. And don't forget that David, I think he did already he embedded the link to the recently created chat. Now, by the way, if the chat turns out to be a pain in the posterior and people don't like it. Or they just, they'd rather be happy with something like slack you know that's obviously no problem at all. So if the proposed socialization space doesn't work for anybody just give me a shout we can change it in two minutes. I wanted to get your viewpoint because obviously you've got a lot of experience and especially in the wake of what john said I wanted to hear what you thought this group or maybe could all should become what should we be doing in your mind. Well, sir, thanks, David. I think at the moment I'm kind of in a an osmosis kind of sponge mode just really listening to everyone's thoughts and trying to gather a sense of the direction that folks want to go. I think some definitely useful or interesting points for me I'll be digging into DDEX and I think that's will hopefully be a good reference point of the current state because I think that could be helpful to the group just to build kind of a baseline understand the ecosystem looks like today vis a vis future state. And I guess my thought from there just goes to it. It's a wide ecosystem so it does seem like we'll have a decision point as to where within that ecosystem we focus to kind of put my just kind of solutioning head on I mean in terms of the lifecycle we've already touched on a few different areas we have anti piracy kind of the content identification itself, remuneration on the other end rights transfers. John just alluded to kind of basically the audit trail and the reconciliation that was mentioned. And then within there you have the network, all the different kind of participants that are involved everyone from creators to rights holders to DSP kind of consumers. And so I think my thought at the moment is just trying to my myself is just getting a handle where within that we're focusing. And then the other question that seems to have surfaced a little bit is, are we do we have kind of an implementation idea this state or is there kind of a stage of talking about or to potentially developing a standard. Because it seems like that there might be a question there whether there's a, especially when it gets to interoperability I guess would be my, my observation from kind of the technical level. The questions been been raised I think I know some of the hyper ledger stacks. You know, early on kind of the Ethereum integration was it was a common request, I know most of the stacks at this point will give you some sort of EVM integration. And then cactus is obviously kind of picking up traction so that's I guess I would just throw that out to the group that does something we can look at, particularly at that interoperability space. But yeah also that's a bit of a ramble but just kind of my my observations. So far, but actually, sorry. No, please. Well just I had a note from from earlier so looping back a bit but we had mentioned the client facing or sorry that the client the user interface question which I think is a good one. And also from a technical perspective I think I'm not sure that any of the projects as of yet have built in built in clients per se are built in you are you X. But I believe the majority of them have common language SDK so fabric has as a node SDK, you can build API is fairly fairly easily so we kind of I think we're covered up to that level and in terms of development from a technical standpoint. Working with music how did hyper ledger prove it has to prove itself to be was it a successful environment or did it have its problems for. We've so speaking, particularly from some of the projects that I've worked on in a commercial corporate setting. We've dealt with rights in some tangential areas not necessarily for music rights. And I think one of the biggest implementation questions just is that closed system versus open.  So answering that question and a closed network of participants versus defining an open standard that's I guess just my observation at this point is that that can't can be a bit of a fork in the road so it might kind of move us to decide what our goal is is there. So that's actually good really really good place to end, because it is now 10 o'clock. So Greg has ended almost with an invitation to question statements queries and so on to what we've already done so far so my proposal would be to fall that as we wrap this up one. Would you please let me know what you would like this project to become what would be most useful to you what would be most useful to the general development of tools with which you're already working. And to how does the initial proposal I put up strike you is it something that is it is that is of worth or would you rather see something developed more along the the lines of let's say Phillips white paper. So just to reiterate that what do you think we should be doing and should it take one of two forms either the recording project or more of a textual theoretical statement. We know where to add materials we know where the chat is you know how to reach me we know hopefully reach each other on that point I just like to say thank you very much to everyone who's been with us. So two weeks from now the next meeting will be the so called Asian meeting so that'll be in favor of our folks who live in Asia. So you're welcome to join that but I doubt for those of you living in Europe that's going to be terribly terribly convenient. So thanks once again, and I hope to see you very soon either on or offline. Thank you everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.


We're not going to start the meeting right now. Just wanted to let everybody know we're waiting a few more minutes for hopefully the arrival of another board member. That will be necessary for us to do the business that we're here to do. So as I get more information, I will let you guys know about that. So thanks for your patience. Okay. I'm going to call to order a meeting of the cultural heritage board of the city of Santa Rosa and ask for a roll call, please. Let the record reflect that all board members are present except for board member Dishazo, board member Fennell. Okay. Thank you. We'll move to approval of the minutes of the October 17, 2018 meeting. I was not a participant in that meeting. Do we have participants in the meeting who constituted quorum at this time? Yes. It seems like we do. Board members, any comments or corrections to those minutes? And those will stand as printed. We have next the minutes of the March 20, 2019 meeting. And board members, any comments or corrections to this? Board member DeBacker, please. Yes. We very much appreciate the comments of the meeting. Thank you. We appreciate the comments of the adding the comments to the October minutes. And we know that we get rather far-ranging when we do concept reviews as we did on the 20th. But I'm not going to have a problem with the minutes, but it would be very helpful to staff if at least the key comments summarized by the chair at the end of the meeting were included in the meeting. Thank you. We will now move to the next meeting. Board members, any comments or corrections to those minutes? And those will stand as printed. And board business, there is nothing on the agenda, so we're going to move to public comment. This is a time for a member of the public who has anything to say to the board about anything that is not noticed as a public hearing, any other comments? So I'm going to go to public comment card. But if you have, we would ask that you drop those off in the box in the front of the room. So with that, I will open public comment. And I'm not seeing anybody go to the podium, so I'm going to close public comment. I'm going to reorder the agenda in anticipation of an abstention. So we will move to item 7, board member reports. Anything to report today? Okay. Chair? Yes. Just a request. It was a voice last time. It was asked to be in the minutes or on the agenda for this time around. If we could perhaps at next meeting have a discussion further about possible adaptive reuse awards that was raised at the last meeting. I would like to try to see if there's some way we can move a recognition forward for a new project in this area. Great. Thank you. Thank you very much. Staff, department reports, please. Sorry, no reports this afternoon. Thank you. Okay. Then we're going to move back to item 5, statements of abstention. Board members, any abstentions today? Board member Tabakker, please. Yes, Chair. I am confident that I can deliver an unbiased review of this project. However, to eliminate any appearance of bias due to some previous issues with the applicant, I'd like to recuse myself on this project. Board members, any other abstentions? Okay. Past practices that this is also when we announce whether we've made site visits to the site that we're going to be reviewing. So would you like us to do that or wait till later? Well, I would ask that we do that as an exparte disclosure after we start the item. Fine. Okay. And I'll allow time for Board Member Tabakker to exit the chamber. And this would be a good time to ask the city attorney. Ex parte disclosures, I assume that those are required for any projects. Yeah. Okay. Great. Okay. We're going to move to item 6.1, a public hearing on the landmark alteration for Ennis Cotted at 131 West 7th Street. Board members, any exparte disclosures? No, not on my part. I did visit the site this morning. I did not speak with anyone at the site. And I have nothing to disclose. And with that, staff presentation will be by Mr. Drupal. Good afternoon. Thank you, Chair Edmontson and members of the Cultural Heritage Board. The project before us today is a request for a major alteration permit for the Ennis Cottage project. This project is construction of a new single family residence, approximately 700 square feet of habitable space with approximately 395 square foot porch and site improvements including a new driveway and walkway. The project is located in the northwest quadrant of the city of Santa Rosa. And it is within the west end neighborhood which is a preservation district. And it's located just inside the block of 7th, West 7th Street between Jefferson and Madison Street. All other development along that block is residential. Here's the general planning zoning. The general plan designation is low density residential and the zoning district is R16, R166, single family zoning district with the addition of the historic combining district. And there we see its location within the west end preservation district. And this project, the project site was a contributor to the establishment of the west end preservation district. We can see also along West 7th Street those other project sites or sites that are also contributors to the establishment of the west end preservation district. On October 12, the applicant submitted a major landmark alteration permit. At the initial review of that permit application, the applicant indicated that the existing structure, the existing dwelling unit was in very poor condition and wondered about demolition of the structure. The zoning code landmark alteration permit section does have exceptions to the permit requirement for demolition of a structure if it's determined to be a dangerous condition by the chief building official. And my next slide will go into more detail on that. On January 4, pursuant to an investigation by the chief building official, the chief building official did issue a notice in order to demolish. On January 23, the application was deemed complete. This would be the major landmark alteration permit application. On January 25, we distributed a notice of application and on March 22, the notice of public hearing was distributed. So the section to which I previously referred to is section 20-58.070 subsection A, exceptions to the major landmark alteration permit requirement. And this section of dangerous condition states that the provisions of the building official do not prevent construction removal or demolition determined by the building official to be immediately necessary to correct an unsafe and dangerous condition as identified and declared in writing by the building official of any structure or building which has been designated as a landmark or which is located within a preservation district. Additionally, the processing review procedures with regard to the building official to be immediately necessary to correct an unsafe and dangerous condition, a building permit is required. We do recognize that the processing review procedures are guidelines that have been adopted by city council and so in this particular case, the zoning code would be the regulatory authority for the demolition issue. And so with that background, we're going to move on to the next slide. We're going to move on to the next slide. We're going to move on to the next slide. So prior to the demolition, the site was improved with the single family dwelling unit as well as a accessory garage structure located to the rear of the parcel. The existing primary structure was the site plan and the aerial data of the existing structure or previously existing structure. Here we have the front elevation, east elevation of the previously existing structure, rear, and then the west elevation of that structure. So moving forward to the proposed project that's before you today we're going to move on to the next slide. We're going to move on to the next slide. The proposed structure is a single family residential dwelling unit comprised of approximately 700 square feet of habitable space and 395 square feet of front and side porch. It's approximately 17.5 feet in height. Site developments perspective is the existing detached garage. The front setback of the proposed dwelling unit is approximately 19 feet. That would be contrasted with the approximately 34 foot setback of the previously existing dwelling unit. And then the side setbacks range from 6 to 13 feet. And then as I indicated earlier additional side improvements would include a new driveway and walkway. So we can see here the proposed site plan proposes the new dwelling unit to be centrally located on the lot. In terms of the setback, a minimum 15 foot setback is required in the zoning district. That could vary in a historic district with review authority approval at the proposed distance of 19 feet. This does bring the dwelling unit closer to the streets than it was previously. And then it also locates it kind of equidistant between existing dwelling units on either side of the proposed residents. And here we have the dimensions and project data as provided to you in the project plan set that was included as an attachment. Here we have an artist rendering of the proposed project shown from the front and east of the expanded porch on the front elevation as well as continuing down the eastern elevation. It also reflects the building height and its general location on the parcel. And then the west elevation showing the arrangement of proposed fenestration. And then the same on the east elevation. And then the rear elevation and the front elevation again. And then here we have a major landmark alteration permit for new construction. The code requires that the review authority cultural heritage board find that the proposed construction reflects character defining elements of the west end preservation district. And I highlighted in the staff report and on this slide some of those character defining elements. And then here we have a building structure. And it does reflect a similar footprint to the previously existing structure. Character defining element in terms of the exterior building treatment with the historic horizontal wood siding and vertical window orientation. Orientation to the street with a usable entry porch. On-site covered parking in a detached garage set behind the building structure. And then a front setback that exceeds the required minimum 15-foot setback. This one does do that. And it does continue the irregular setback pattern. The applicant is not proposing landscaping with this project but would just use minimal plantings. And then a front setback that exceeds the required minimum 15-foot setback. And then just use minimal plantings along the walkway and in front of the structure. Finally, the existing public sidewalk was replaced in 2016 and it reflects the traditional two-foot sidewalk scores within the public right-of-way. Consistency, the review authority is also directed to find consistency with design guidelines for new construction with regard to height. The proposed 17.5-foot height is compatible with existing single-story residential structures as well as two-story dwelling units. It reflects the proportion of the previously existing contributor although it is approximately 10% larger than the previous contributor. In terms of a rhythm along the street, it does have a street-oriented entrance and main facade fenestration does reflect similar designs of residential dwelling units as well as the preservation district. The setbacks we've already addressed and we do see that it is a varied setback in comparison to other development along the street. Materials and structure are slightly differentiated in that the applicant is proposing use of a horizontal hardy board fiber cement siding and Marvin-clad next-generation windows, those are wood windows with an exterior cladding. The roof shape is simple gabled roof that drops down near the back and then front porch roofs that are plain shed style. Finally, in terms of architectural details and decorative features, the turned wood posts that support the porch roof are the only decorative feature. With regard to the interior standards for rehabilitation guidelines for new construction, staff does want to report on the property's historic use to single-family residential. The proposed project would not result in a change to the site's historic use. With regard to standard number two, the lot coverage of the previously existing dwelling unit with porch was about 12.8 percent and the lot coverage of the new proposed structure would increase that about 10 percent. Modifications to improvements to the property are not proposed with the exception of the new ribbon driveway and the new walkway. Finally, with regard to standard nine where the guidance is that the construction would not seek to mimic other historic the previously existing historic structure or other historic structures. We do have notable differences including reduction in the setback area, expanded porch areas, the use of a fiber cement siding as opposed to a wood siding, clad wood windows. The proposed design does standardize window fenestrations and window sizes and does offer uniform application of architectural details. Staff provided environmental review and determined that the proposed new construction does qualify for a class three categorical exemption under section 15303 of the CEQA guidelines and that the project is construction of one new single-family residence which is the maximum allowable on this legal parcel. So for both the notice of application and the notice of public hearing, we did prior to today receive a total of four public comments and then we did receive an additional public comment today that was distributed to you all of the comments have expressed for support for the proposed project and generally noted compatibility of the proposed design with surrounding structures in the neighborhood. So it is recommended by planning an economic development department that the cultural heritage board approve a major landmark alteration permit for construction of a new 700-square foot to attach single-family dwelling on a previously developed parcel in the West End Preservation District proposed for 131 West 7th Street. Assessor parcel number 010-161-005. And staff is available for any questions as well as the applicant is here today as well. Thank you. Okay, thanks very much. The applicant is here wishing to make a presentation or fantastic. I would invite you to speak and make a presentation if you would like to. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. I don't think that there's really much that I need to say. I think it was handled pretty eloquently by Andrew and if you've read the project proposal I pretty much said everything I needed to say there. If you have any questions I'm more than willing to answer them. Thanks very much. I'm glad you're here. Thank you. I have a question about the processes. Could you tell me what they are? The wind damage actually occurred the night of the fire storm. And the building rather than being a rectangle became a parallelogram and it also moved over a couple of inches. It is very precarious inside the house had no framing. It was horizontal board, vertical board, wallpaper, and then three-sixteenths of an inch plywood as the interior wall application. Is that the whole box or is that just the side walls? It has no frame. The front facade has framing that looks like it was added in the 20s. From the inside? From the inside and the rest of the structure, the rest of the original structure had no framing. It's interesting. And this is a question I guess for both the applicant and staff. I noticed that the applicant made a gesture of providing some mitigation. I have not been on the board when this type of demolition of a contributing structure has come forward. Is that a requirement or is that out of the goodness of your heart? What is required to move forward in terms of recording the property of anything? Sure. So just in response to your first comment, we do, or first question, we do have the chief building official here today. If you would like to have him additionally comment on what they found during the inspection. With regard to your second question, the zoning code does not require documentation of the structure prior to demolition. However, the processing review procedures do recommend, for other issues related to new construction or removal of an existing contributing structure, that documentation and salvage of the materials be considered as mitigation measures. And so in this particular case, the applicant was very willing to both document the structure prior to demolition as well as had already previously indicated that materials could be salvaged. And so we accepted that indication from her that she would provide that. I'm sorry, in terms of clarification, is that a requirement or is that a policy? It's not a requirement of the zoning code that would allow for demolition. But we did present the applicant with that opportunity and she responded that she would be willing to do that. Fantastic. And is there a stated methodology? I mean, what she's presented seems perfect. But is there stated methodology when it comes to documenting a bill to be for demolition that goes through this process? Not within city regulations or city guidelines that are provided. Okay. Thank you. And I would be interested to hear a little more clarification about the wind damage. Thank you. Chief Building Official. I'm sorry, I didn't see the green light. It was not on. Jesse Oswald, Chief Building Official. So upon notification of the stress with the structure, we executed an inspection. Our senior building inspector did inspect the building inside out and underneath and everything that the applicant has portrayed is very true. My inspector brought back pictures showing me, myself, the damage and the distress. The primary trigger for this was the shifting on the foundation or off of the foundation. It was evidence that the original construction, none of it was secured in any manner, meaning the building to the foundation. Correct. So it did allow the building to shift and the elements that essentially held up the floor, so to speak, were all listed fairly significantly. And the building itself, as described again by the applicant, was what we'd call racked and sidewalls were bowed. And then the description of the lack of framing is very accurate in that it really wasn't a framed structure. It was essentially a pieced together structure. And the deterioration over the years of the foundation members and things like that led me to be able to very easily deem it as a dangerous structure. Had any other event occurred, seismic wind, even the off chance that a vehicle could contact the building would have significantly increased the chance of collapse of the building. So that's where we landed with that. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but if someone were to purchase this house and they purchased it after the event and they wanted to bring it up to code, how would the city respond? If we went and did an inspection and found these same measures, I would still make the same determination that the building would need to come down. So there was really no path forward? I wouldn't sign a notice in order to demolish without there being options for rehabilitation. Okay. And lastly, did you, after that event in October, were there other houses that had suffered this type of wind damage that you had to process? We're unaware of any others. Okay. Interesting. Thank you. Thank you. For members any other questions at this time? Vice-chair. Hi. Thank you. And actually, I'm not quite sure who this is for, so stay put, please. So the little structure that we have is, as I'm sure you know, a classic shotgun. It's quite common that shotguns are built with what's called single-wall construction, which is what you just described. They're the exterior skin and a 2x4, and that's it. And then there's, you know, the interior, what did you say? Wallpaper, right? It's also likely that it originally sat on stone pilings for a foundation and would never have been at here. So that if there was any perimeter foundation in there, it might have gone in with the 1920s renaut, but it wouldn't have been there originally. My question is, I do vernacular architecture for a living. I don't know of any other shotgun in the city of Santa Rosa. Now, I realize our inventory is 35 years out of date, so we may not have a document of one, but my question is, does anyone in the city office know of any other existing shotgun house in this city? Have you seen one in your experience? This is and was the first one of these that I've seen. Okay. That makes this a unique structure, which is an interesting thing, which means that the gestures that you're making towards documenting the structure have just become significantly more important. And so we thank you for that. Does anyone know if there was any prior documentation of this structure, either during the creation of the West End Historic District or any other project that's been done? To what extent has this building been documented? If it's unique in the city, that's kind of interesting. The only other documentation would be the historic properties and inventories from the 1977 Bloomfield Survey or Peterson. I get those confused. The 1977 and 1989 surveys. All right. I'd like to make a recommendation if I can. This has just put a premium on that documentation. It doesn't mean that this structure shouldn't come down. It's in bad shape, bless its heart. But this is a unique structure, and we don't know who built it, why it's there, where it came from. I would strongly recommend that that be ameliorated in some way. The other thing I would keep an eye on, do you know of any... Has anybody done any documentation on the lot to know whether there were privies on the lot? There were other outbuildings on the lot. Has anybody looked at a sand-borne map? Because that may mean that you may not have standing structures, but you might have archaeological features. Just a thought. I've done all of that. Okay. And the privy that was there was where the garage is now. It's now. I was kind of looking at it. I kind of figured. Okay. Yeah. All right. Okay. And I am very concerned about doing documentation. I've been doing it all along. And I'd actually like to show you the wallpaper that was in the house was in very bad shape. There's no barrier between the exterior, really, and that wallpaper. And when I started taking down the plywood, I was very disappointed in the shape of that wallpaper. I already knew it was there because I could see it extending up into the attic. The ceiling had been dropped probably in the 20s, is my guess. So I knew it was there. And when I pulled that first exterior wall plywood down, I was very disappointed. But there was one interior wall where the wallpaper was in. There was enough wallpaper in good shape that I have salvaged it and framed it. And it's beautiful. I once recorded one of these where the interior wallpaper was stretched print gingham and no barrier to the outside. This actually has flower sacks and old fabric kind of tacked to the one by Redwood. There you go. And then the wallpaper glued to that fabric. Yeah. It's a real common pattern. Okay. Thank you. Any other questions for staff? When the building is demolished and you rebuild it, you rebuild it according to established codes for 2019? Yes. Okay. It will be the 2016 codes. 2019 codes don't go into effect for several years. But to current building codes, yes. Okay. That's what I meant. Okay. If there aren't any more questions at this time, this is a public hearing. It's a time for any member of the public who wants to comment on the project to approach one of the podiums and state your name for the record. And you'll have three minutes to make your comments. We've also reviewed all the public comments that we received in writing in the record. I don't have any cards on this item, but you don't need to have filled out a card to speak. We have the cards. Okay. So if you'll state your name for the record. Sure. And begin, please. My name's Deborah Crippen. I'm from Syracuse. I'm currently working at 619 Polk Street, which is about a block and a half from this proposed project. And as you have seen with, with, you know, the documentation that you have, this is, you know, Sharra's gone above and beyond to produce a fantastic little house in our neighborhood. You know, she revived her house that she lives in next door, at the time too and so we all in the neighborhood appreciate the help and the advancements for the neighborhood without changing the feel for our neighborhood. Thank you very much. My name is Ron King and I live at 615 Polk Street again about a block and a half from Sheriff's location and I would just like to echo what Debra said. I think I represent most everyone I know in the community and we are all very much appreciative of the work that Cher has done and the improvement that it's brought to the neighborhood. Both of those structures have been eyesores for years and particularly the little shotgun that's being replaced was in very bad shape. It's a very nice lot and I have carefully looked at her design. I believe it's in keeping with the original structure. It has the same spirit. It has much of the same look. The addition of the porches down the side gives a feel more space and for a very very tiny house anyone who lived in it would greatly appreciate that change. I think it's going to be a really nice addition to the neighborhood and I urge it's approval. Thank you very much Mr. King. Good afternoon. My name is Charlie Trebulci. I'm a civil engineer here in Santa Rosa. We fixed up a house for my mother-in-law around the corner from Cher's project of 617 Madison and my mother-in-law is quite elderly so she asked me to speak on her behalf. I always do what she asked me but in this case I support what she asked me to say which is that it's a fantastic project. It's a fantastic house. The only problem I have is that Cher keeps raising the bar for the neighborhood and it's going to be tough for all of us to keep up with her so thank you for doing a great job. It's always wise to agree with your mother I've found. Hello do I have to push anything? No. My name is Bob Ankers.  Cher has gone overboard into simplifying or keeping something very simple and historical and I'm very appreciative of her work and what she's done to our community or the neighborhood. She's a plus to us and I hope you guys approve this whole thing and I'm looking forward to viewing something pleasant for a change. Thank you. Thank you. If anybody else is wishing to speak this would be the last opportunity. Okay I don't see anybody else so I'm going to close the public hearing and would anybody like to move the resolution before we ask for comments? Okay. I'd like to move resolution of the cultural heritage boards of the city of Santa Rosa approving a landmark alteration altercation permit for construction of a new 700 square foot detached single family dwelling unit on a previously developed parcel in the West End Preservation District located at 131 West 7th Street in the West End Preservation District, assessor's parcel number 010-161-005 file number LMA-18-025 and wave for the reading of the text. Do I have a second? Okay I second and for comments Vice-Chair would you like to start? Yeah mine are pretty simple I think this proposal is clean and given the circumstances of required demolition there's not a lot of wiggle room. The one thing I would like to reinforce as you go forward is the Department of the Interior's guidelines standards and guidelines around making sure that we're not trying that thin edge between or thin line between keeping it clean and simple and in keeping with what was there and not trying to replicate the historic structure. I think your Hardy board does that frankly the porch does that that's come it's you know like a cowboy hat on a space alien in terms of putting it on a shotgun but but that's good because this isn't the original shotgun so just to keep that in mind and achieve that balance. Thank you Board Member McHugh. No no comment. Okay thank you and Board Member Murphy any comments. I think this is a very sympathetic design has a lot of elements that blend what was there historically with which I you want to achieve with the new use of space. One thing I would ask if you could consider simplifying the porch supports maybe something that's a little more restrained only because they're so similar to the ones that were there historically. Well I appreciate that comment I respectfully would decline that because that's one of the things that is a defining feature in any of the buildings in the in the neighborhood that have porches including mine which is right next door so I would push back on that. Any response or further comment? Well I mean I would I respect your opinion but the profile those is not historic but let's let that go. I would request if you could give a copy of your research to the history and genealogical library of this number county the annex. I would be happy to do that and also include I ran the entire history of the property and then I also did extensive research on the the owners and so I've got a lot of information. Just in terms of clarification I don't think this is truly a shotgun house because it doesn't have that floor plan but I think it's a it's an important probably workers cottage of its period. And actually in answer to your earlier question there were three of these structures in the west end. But this is in fact the last one. Okay thanks very much really I would like to compliment the obvious effort tremendous effort that went into this plan the obvious concern not in any way attempting to give short shrifts to any of these requirements and obvious concern for not only the property but the neighborhood. I appreciate the design elements that engage with the neighborhood more of a kind of public semi public space. It always I found brings a neighborhood to life more so to life the staff effort as well as always the staff is really helpful and impressive and able to respond to anything that we ask. Also I found with every project that I've ever reviewed that engagement with the neighborhood and goes without saying that that is the hallmark of every successful project both at the at the application stage the hearing stage and in seeing it through to its conclusion. So absolutely the best practices and I wish you the best with the remainder of the project I'm completely in support of it. One final thing that I'd like to add is that I am so encouraged whenever I see a an affordable by design project and the size of this unit is not only appropriate but it's going to move you know ever so much closer to a city where we have some diversity of housing options and can make sure that we have a community of you know great variety which is terrific and it supports all the the goals of the council and the zoning goals that the city has. So congratulations on such a great job. Okay. I'd like to one more final comment. I would say the applicants package is one of the best I've ever read in that you directly responded to the criteria and the policy and the zoning and it made it very easy for us to understand where you are coming from. Thank you. I'm an overachiever. Yes you are. Well I want to thank you for your overachievement. It is fascinating to me that every time I go through one of these things I learn something more about the city and the structures in it and want to thank you for your research and your documentation. It does make it easier for us to make a decision and I'm frankly supportive of what you're attempting to do and I'm going to support it and vote yes. Okay. Thanks very much. The resolution was moved by board member McHugh seconded by the chair. Board members your votes please. So this board does roll call vote. The technology is not set up yet for... Oh I missed the buttons. Okay. Roll call vote. Board member Murphy your vote please. In favor yes. Vice chair your vote please. I. Board member McHugh your vote please. Great. I. And I also vote I and the resolution passes with four I's. The remaining all remaining board members being absent and that's the final item on our agenda and we will adjourn to staff. Do we have the next meeting date to share with the public or you know I just encourage the public to check the legislative website cultural heritage board website for the city to see any upcoming meetings and with that we adjourn.


This beauty queen is going viral for taking a hard stance on sugar babies and sugar dating, and she's not against it. She's in support. Hey, man, don't go against Leifang Tao, man. She said sugar dating. She didn't say sugar baby, man. It's different vocabulary. Oh, man. All right, guys. This is going viral. We got to talk about this. Leifang Tao was runner up for Ms. Vietnam Fitness, and she recently came under fire for her views on sugar babies. She said, and this is referring to younger, beautiful women who date older married men, she said sugar babies should be okay as long as they don't affect the marriage. And then people had backlash and were like, what? How can you say that? And then she came and doubled down on it. And she said, what did she say? She said, listen, if you choose to get married to men who don't possess the ability to take care of your family, then you will have to do two things at the same time, give birth and make money. She said, I support dating older men as they have the ability to take care of women thanks to their financial and career accomplishments. I made it clear that I was against the idea of extramarital affairs since they are morally and legally wrong. So does that go with or against what she initially said? So she was saying extramarital would, it's extramarital if not all the parties are on the same page. But I guess if the wife and the family is in on it and the husband's in on it and the sugar babies in on it, then she said that's okay. And let's be honest, you see that sometimes in very rich, old established families. Yes, I've heard of that. Yeah. Anyway, guys, make sure you like subscribe, turn on your notifications. It sparked a ton of comments about the sanctity of marriage. Is this young generation just trying to use their looks to shortcut through life? Does marriage ever mean anything anymore? There's high divorce rates. There's high infidelity rates. First off, Andrew, we got to talk about Leigh Fong Tao, man, because she kind of looks like Adriana Lima, a little bit of a Latina look a little bit Andrew, but she might have like just been saying some crazy stuff to pop off because I'll tell you this, the girl who actually won don't to toy Andrew, she would never say stuff like that. She she too proper. No, no. And also I would say this whole thing is just a very pretty person thing. Like you have to be very, very good looking, essentially to be a sugar baby. I'm not saying you have to be a model, but like, yeah, to get paid to be in a relationship with an older guy, you have to just be good looking. Like you're not just an average girl, depending on how the guy looks or what his desires are. Also interestingly enough, Andrew, when T Fong Tao has a very similar name, Andrew is about to become the first Vietnamese woman to be a self made billionaire in Vietnam off airlines. OK, but her airlines got huge valuations, not completely because but in part because she's cool doing stuff like sexy stewardesses. Oh, huge valuations for that. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Amen. They about they know what men want, man. That's really interesting. Yeah, I mean, I also think that just you shouldn't take dating or marriage advice from someone who's famous for being good looking. I just don't think that's a good idea. That's the best person. No, that's just not a good idea. I'm against it. Yeah, clearly they value beauty queens, though, because Fong Tao, the beauty queen one, she actually lectures at colleges sometimes. And I think that that's why people were mad, man, because let's be honest, Andrew, she's speaking of a dynamic that has probably existed for millennia, right? But then, you know, women's rights and there's modern society and there's modern progress in this and there's capitalism, the development of the nuclear family. It seems like we've almost moved away from it. And is it making like a return back to the old mistress concubine harem days? I don't know. I don't. I think that a lot of people don't like it because it feels like she's normalizing this behavior. Of course, this thing has happened and always kind of does happen low key. But JFK, I mean, American presidents, politicians, whatever to talk about it and normalize it is kind of weird, I guess. So is it becoming more normalized? Andrew Feichong Roura was a famous dating show in China that is famous for producing this quote. I would rather cry in the back of a BMW than smile on the back of a bicycle. And this went like hyper. First of all, there's a pretty big gap between a bicycle and a BMW guy. She didn't say civic. And by the way, before we get in the comment section, I do want to be clear that there is a difference between sugar babies and sugar dating. Sugar babies can be in a relationship with an older guy who has a family and that's common. That's a sugar baby. But as sugar dating, she's referring to just dating for finding like a financially stable man and taking that into a strong consideration. Right. There's probably a range of what she's referring to. Let's be honest. And I think she is referring to both that both should be OK as long as all parties are known and educated and OK. I told you, man, she didn't say sugar baby. She just said sugary dating like sprinkling a little bit of sugar crystals on a dating. She also referred to sugar babies. Somebody said all these high value men have age limits and she just has a financial requirement. Both are sort of unfair standards, but a lot of people have them. Right. Is it unfair standards if you have a look and age requirement for dating? Like a lot of like celebrities, Leonardo DiCaprio, they'll date younger. But then you're saying in money status, youth and beauty, blah, blah, blah. It's just a trans people. People just are all different metrics. Are they all shallow, unfair metrics? Somebody said as long as both parties are OK, then it's OK with me. Right. Yeah. I mean, that's a pretty neutral state. She did quote and she did essentially say that she would not want to be a third party that's in a non consensual relationship, meaning like that she didn't know that she was the mistress. She would like to know everybody needs to know that there's a sugar baby. I do think in Asia, Andrew, sort of the financial fitment or the transactional like equation nature of relationships, it seems to be a lot more outspoken. Whereas in America, it's almost like it's weird. It's like people are supposed to be more blue-pilled, I guess, when they're talking about the motivations behind marriage. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. And maybe it's because immigrants have always been in certain situations where somebody's like visa is running out and they need to get married. You know what I mean? Like white people are just a heritage of America is they're not going to run into that situation where the green cards running out and people need to switch over to PR and all this stuff. Anyway, somebody said only in Americanized culture do they pick broke tall looking guys that are Romeo chads over the way less good looking, less tall, richer guy. Yeah. So I guess which world would you want to live in, David? An extremely look-centric world or an extremely financially focused world? Now, I only say this as the two examples because there's always an argument because there's a lot of guys on the internet who are like, ah, women just care about looks. They want to chat a good looking guy. That's all they care about.  Or to date women. Right. Right. Right. You're saying they get to become the Romeo of that. Yes. So then are both systems unfair or not? Because I'll say this, like for example in India where they do have quite a few still arranged marriages, you don't think that those two families who are arranging the marriage aren't talking about financials? Yeah. I mean, that's, that's almost just fundamental matchmaking too, right? Yeah. This is a bunch of comments against her.  This explains everything about how many young women are seen to behave around foreign men. And someone said, listen to your rubbish man and date financial. You think that women want to listen to you and date old men on old motorbikes? Yeah. No, that's true. Because a lot of people ride motorbikes in Vietnam. But if you're, you're Fong Tao, you're probably in a whip. Yeah, this comment said something interesting. It was like, yeah, sure, you might get more money from that old bloke, but you won't appreciate your relationship and your connection as much because you won't be satisfied with that relationship. No, she said you won't be satisfying the soul in a relationship with an oldie. You guys didn't even grow up in the same era. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's something of that. That makes sense. Another comment was like, from apparently a woman that said, it's 2023 and I hope women would have higher standards for themselves. She is promoting an Asian stereotype, especially for older men. Somebody said, what are you talking about? All women around the world are capitalizing online for donations, gifts, only fans, only plans, all types of things. Nowadays, what is going on? Even the Christians are getting divorced, man. What's going on in America? I gotta say that I could not date a woman seriously if she was ever a sugar baby. That would be super weird to me. And I would rather date a woman who was hustling as a streamer or maybe even had her own OF page than a woman who was a sugar baby. I don't know. It just seems like a weird judgment of character. What if she was a sugar baby that just had conversations? You don't know what was going on? Somebody said, my mom worked and brought up three children. She still does. What's going on with just our values nowadays? What just everybody wants entitlement?  They just want to be a rich mistress. What is going on? Yeah, that is weird. I think that there and this is to kind of wrap up the video. I think there's a couple problems. I think there's a lot of people who don't want to work, but I understand that women, you know, they have kids, they have to take care of kids too. So I get that why the stay at home as as the stay at home mom idea has decreased. I feel like it's kind of making a comeback because it's it is a lot of work to be a mother or a wife, you know, well, what you end up doing is like either asking your parents to take care of your kid while you're at work or you hire a nanny, which is like unbelievably expensive due to labor costs and just the structure of everything in America. But then also, I just think people are just being so caught up in just lifestyle. You mean their own life? Yeah, just lifestyle about how pleasant and material things. Yeah, I think it does matter a rural to city split because in the city, you see a lot more materialism because a lot more materialism is sort of like shot at you through the stimulus of just everywhere. Yeah, you know what I mean? So it's like it's very prevalent in big cities. I'm sure Fong Tao was referring to a situation that would occur more in Ho Chi Minh city Saigon or Hanoi than just like the countryside. Yeah, yeah. Also, I mean, at the end of the day, who really loses out, David, it's the it's the average and below average dude, man, that who doesn't have a lot of money or doesn't have all the looks, they're losing out. And that's why a lot of the comments are concerned about the future because they feel like if this attitude continues to grow and spread, then where does that leave regular man? And by the way, guys, I don't think this is a majority of people. I think it's just a growing niche of people. You could say like society used to be like that in the dynastic imperial, like King Queen days, and it's almost like went away from it. It's almost like circling back around right now. But I mean, I think I like I went to Canada. I saw a lot of people still in some really like structural middle class relationships. Maybe there needs to be a comeback to a more of a simple laugh, you know, man, these people out here, they just trying to complicate things. They want so many things out of life. They want everything out of life. You know, the reason that I brought up that Fong Tao, Le Fong Tao, the beauty queen, is that so at odds with Fong Tao, the self made billionaire through Vietnam air, it's almost like, do you think it's almost like nowadays, obviously it seems more achievable to be Le Fong Tao than to be Win T Fong Tao, the woman who started the airline. Right.  Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've seen a lot more beauty pageant contestants than obviously just billionaires. Yeah. And at the end of the day, listen, this is a pretty person thing to do.  Right. Right. So it's it's just all these things are catering towards like beauty and beautiful women. But that's also a man's fault too for buying into it. But then where does that leave average women where they're like, well, I want to look good too so that my life is easier. So then so that everybody just focus more on what average women are getting denied right now the opportunity to be a sugar baby. Yeah. But but then but then I don't know if that's true because then there's a there's a variety of different sugar daddies too. Like the cooler looking ones probably I don't know guys. Who knows guys, man? Let us know what you think in the comments of which section below. I would say she's speaking the unspoken, but I can see as somebody who's like in a position of power, you're like not supposed to speak the unspoken, even though there's some like harsh reality of like raw human nature behind it. Let us know what you guys think in the comments section below in society doomed keep it civil until next time we to hop out boys we out. Peace.