You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you are notified for when my next podcast goes live. My dad used to make me go and fight but I'd lose. But my mum just looked at me and went, they're going to get them. So where she said it quietly, I'll never forget, I've done all three of them because I had passion to do it with. It's just something she said made me stick up for myself. So from then on, I think I started to fight a lot. They pulled a knife out of me, yeah. But it ain't no ego, I just didn't feel nothing. I didn't feel scared, I was just more angry, right, that he made them move first and I thought, I went, no problem. I sat there, we looked at each other, I thought, no problem at all. I went, calm down, yeah. All right, he sat down and I watched him not lick his lips. He felt good about, you know, confronted me a little bit and I went out of the kitchen and got a knife, come back in the shirt and then I went, listen, I'm going there, shake hands and then I stabbed him. How did I not have the power to say no to all these people years ago? Why have I got to go and help them all? When have they ever given a fuck?   Because I've got a great team behind me now, a probation team, I've got some good people still in my life and I'm entitled to some happiness at least, surely, whether I've done some, I've done a lot of bad things to people and I'm very sorry. I drove round to see if he was dead or not in a car and then I went to prison on the sixth year for the stabbing so I had to keep you out of all the violence but then I was stabbing the sex offenders, bashing them, putting bread on the cameras in prison. I used to get bread on a stick, put them up and the prison officers go, he's one, bad one, yeah? I've done a child, you know, a stable, I've done a child for a stable, a saint, girl, she got down in rape, so I couldn't live with it but it always, all the prison used to come to me, yeah, again, this was a common occurrence that I thought, why don't someone else do this for a change, yeah? Because I was ruthless. I'm not just hurting a prisoner, I've got a prisoner crawling on his chest, nearly getting it, like the Balaclavalan, got me home squat team in there. I couldn't even put all my violence into a short story because it's too much, like the egg I've had over the years, pain.  Yeah, that's powerful. Well, everything's written me that one, but I'll answer it because I'm a man, yeah, good call.   Boom, we're on. And today's guest, we've got London's Tony Arden. How are you, brother? Thank you, James, yeah, thanks for having me on. Thanks for coming on the show, Tony. I know you've been kind of battling whether to come on or not. You're just out of prison last year. You've done over 20. You've done over 20 years for murder. You're now at the stage where you want to make changes. You want to help the youth. You want to be, you're still young. You know a lot of people who's been on this show as well. First of all, how are you? Yeah, I'm good. I'm good, making a big change, like, massive change.  Let it go behind to be fair, do you know what I mean? Yeah, you're looking real. Thank you. Yeah, thanks, James. I know a lot of people who's been inside with you and they said you were a fitness fanatic. Yeah, yeah, thank you, James. Doing six minute miles. Yeah, that's the one. But I know you're now trying. We speak quite frequently now. You're trying to make changes. You're trying to become a better person. Yeah. And it is difficult, but you're here. You're here to tell your story, to try and help others now. You're very well respected all over the UK.  Nah, not at all. Always go back where to start, my guest Tony. Where you grew up and how it all began. I grew up in a place just off Silver Town Way in Custom House in East London. It was more, it was a weird little strange place really because it was like right next to the docks. So it was probably just built for that dock, where it's East India dock. So it was tidal basin. So it was probably the most depressing place. Like I was born in a tower block on the 20th floor. So like it was the wind off the river. Yeah, I remember watching some ships coming in when I was little from the 20th floor. Obviously taking Lowe's Sugar Factory.  That was it and bomb sites. 20 years, I bombed 20 years after the war. So it was all bomb sites still. Like five places hanging off of houses. And I was just to think, why is all these buildings still smashed? Because the East End was the biggest bomb part of anywhere, wasn't it, with the docks? Because it was where they used to have all the animations and all that being built factories. So I grew up there. And for an early day of remembrance there, I used to go nursery. And I can still remember, some people think, how can you remember? It's obviously getting me head punched in a lot at nursery. I remember this cube thing I used to play with and this other kid used to want it, this square shape thing. So, I don't think there was a day when I grew up there where I was in battle with someone or something. And I had a brother, Brian, brother David and a sister Mandy. But my brother David comes seven years before. But my saviour was my brother because of back in the day, he was a bit more ruthless. I was quite a soft kid, you know what I mean? Didn't really fancy a fight. Didn't really know I could fight. But through infant school, all I remember was just, it wasn't a nice experience for me. You know what I mean? It was like, I played with a kid for 10 minutes or so. I don't know where it was. Perhaps it came off the river, who knows? Like, yeah. And then a kid would be playing me, get bored, 10 minutes later, just crack. You know, you're on the nose. And finished playing with you. And then a mum and dad, odd workers, but there weren't much of a case of money coming in doors. Not just for us. It was a lot of us round here. It wasn't very well off. Do you understand me? We still used to have the sugar strikes, bread strikes. Mum used to send us to go and get two loaves because you only would one loaf a family. So I remember it was odd. It was odd growing up there. But I can't say I didn't have a good memory there, but I had some good memories there. But it was just a tough, tough place to grow up. What about your schooling and stuff? You know, at school, to be fair at school, I wasn't very academic really. I wasn't very... I was very behind. I didn't like school. I just never showed. I was a daydreamer. I just like... I like the games, the PE part. But I never wanted to study or do anything. You know, where... I see some brothers having a bit more educated than me, quite a lot more. But I never liked school. I never liked the teachers there. You know, there's an headmaster there. I might mention his name, but he just didn't seem to like me and my brother. He's always like, you know, I remember growing up watching my brother. I looked up at my brother because he's older than me.  So I used to think, that's my brother. You know what I mean? Because I look up to him, I'm proud that he was like, you know, I didn't want to go where he's going. I think he's like, he's something else he is. You've got me, but I've kind of had this little proudness for him of his rebellion. You've got me, but I was too... I didn't have the bottle to do what he'd done, like smash a window, whatever he'd done, or he'd have a fight at school. But I used to watch him sometimes, once he sat there on his own, where everyone has to pass you to look at you because you're a bad child kind of thing. So yeah, I used to look up to him a lot. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. You're not an outsider from the class, but you don't really want to focus and study as much. No, never. You don't even think from an early age. Never. No, never, ever.  Like playing with me soldiers. I'd just go home, get me fought out. You know what I mean? Playing with all my toy soldiers, battling away.  I'd say, I was that lad. You know what I'm saying? Do you know what I mean? Like shooting at each other and that. Yeah. And I like my films, like the Roman films, and I was just like a kid who just liked watching loads of Telly and that. Yeah. But on Nimba, he, remember what I'm saying? We had a meter on a Telly. If that went, then you had a meter for this, a meter for that. So sometimes things were odd. And there was always a man on everyone's door in these block of flats. There was a man who used to have a lot of dandruff in his ear and used to knock on with a big black book and he's named a provident man or whatever he used to name it. Yeah, the provident man. Yeah, the dandruff on his shoulder. And I used to hate him because sometimes he'd knock on my mum's door once and he made her, she was a bit upset because she didn't have the money. And that's when I first thought, as a young boy I thought, one day I'm going to beat you up, mate, yeah?  Obviously, I didn't know. People lend money off whatever they do, I don't know. So really, but mum and dad always give me a good Christmas, but always got in debt for it probably. I don't know. But we had good Christmases, you know what I mean? Yeah, so struggling. Yeah, yeah. You know yourself from the kind of deprived areas like where I'm from and Glasgow as well. Look, you could drug your meter and stuff where you got the electricity for free. Everything was, you know, shoplifters to try and get cheaper clothes and you're always trying to find a way to survive a survival mode. There was always something for sale there. Like even growing up, you always had someone who'd go missing for a little while and then you see him two years later. And as a kid, I think, where'd they been? And then someone said, oh, number one fellow went missing from two doors through flats down. And they went, oh, he had the Christmas money from the clubhouse or something. So like, you know, people went missing for a little while. Sons go missing and they come back two years later. You got me? Yeah. And then, yeah, there was, listen, it was a troubled area but everyone turned a blind eye to everything that you'd done there. Yeah, just try to get by. Yeah. What age then? Did you go to secondary school or anything? Yeah, I went to secondary school, primary school. Do you know what? There's not much to really remember from growing up from two. From schooling? Nah, not from infant school. Nah. And then I did change that school. We mum moved us from that place to Stratford, West Ham. So I went to a little flat school. Then that's my first school. When I rode, I went to, it was just like a prison. I've never seen a victor in a school like it.  Yeah? More kids, bell big, bell ringing. And, yeah, I went to that school there and that's when I seemed to find, I had to change my kind of persona, what was about me, because it was like, there was a lot of fighting going on there and I was a new kid on the block, kind of thing. You got me? Yeah, so you had to think your corner. Yeah, definitely. Were you getting bullied at the start? People tried it on with me, yeah. And then, well, before, sorry, to be jumping to conclude, before that incident, the three kids who used to bully me all the time, years ago, the docs near this school there, I was one of them for a stone at me one day. And that's the first time in the nation I got were, in the nation I got with violence and he, for a stone, and I was with my mum, and he was sitting on his bench, hit me in the stomach, took the wind out at me. And my dad used to make me go and fight, but I'd lose. But my mum just looked at me and went, they're going to get them. So where she said it quietly, I'll never forget, I've done all three of them, because I had passion to do it with. It's just something she said made me stick up for myself. So from then on, I think I started to fight a lot. Yeah. Was that when you started becoming violent? Was that when you started?  Yeah. Because I, you know, I don't, I'm never going to go there again. To be a quiet kid and just, I was loving kids. Yeah.  I used to love, that was me. You know what I mean? So, you know. So what happened after school then? When you started getting out? After school, started doing a bit of boxing in there. After school, tried to do a bit of work, you know, like go work, but I always wanted something different. I just fucking, I just couldn't stand the drizzling all night. I don't know why, I had something in my mind that I wanted to do. I was craving a bit of excitement. Got me, and then I first got with me, there was a gang, and we used to hang around West Ham station. I started getting acquainted with a few of us. We were good about eight and I'd say strong. And my mum used to think like I was going home being a good boy, but like 10 o'clock she'd say, you've got to be in. But we started travelling the trains and we didn't have a lot of money. I didn't have a lot of stuff. I'm ashamed of this really, but we'd look for, we just were so NNS, we're just looking for fights. We'd go to a peria, pick an area on the train station, go there, rob still. So this was like constantly robbing and stealing, shops, robbing people. And though sometimes you wouldn't believe it, it was robbing for food. Because we used to go, they won't make donals then, we used to go and get the chicken. No, the chicken that used to go around on the... Chicken kebabs. Yeah, no, no, no, chicken kebab then. It was like a chicken, breasted chicken, sausage rolls. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.  And though some people might think that's really bad, I'll do it, I'll look back now, I think, oh mate, that's terrible, but that was us, we had nothing, but that was my first time, like, really living with this gang day in, day out. We was like, we was proper like, we was like, it was like a little family to me. You know, I like being around them. Do you feel accepted being with them? Yeah, we all did, with each other, we all had our problems, but, you know, we'd pull up on a train station, we was getting well known for it, like, and we'd buy them one-pound umbrellas, sorry, like that little black umbrellas. So, that was like a weapon, but you couldn't, if the police pulled us, we had a like, we could say it was going to rain, even in the summer. Yeah. And, we used to use them as weapons.  I don't know, that was us, and we'd just have a fight. What is it, is your first courtier present? It was young, I think I've just turned about 15, I went to detention centre. What was that for? Um, I refused to do community service. I went to a community service where you go and paint someone's house in there. And I went there, and my mates come passing me on the ladder. I was painting an house and I was on a ladder, and they started, they bipped them, and they started laughing at me and all that. So, when I've gone back in the room, I felt a bit like, Barrest? Barrest, yeah. And again, you can pick the paintbrush up and you've finished that before you go. I went, you know, I sit in this and that for like, go and do it yourself, your mug. And I walked out. So, when I went back to the magistrate and report that took me, you know, it goes, sitting in there again, he went, you will do this community service.  And this magistrate was shocked. I wanted to go to prison. I mean, we're going in, because I ain't doing it. Then that was it. But, from that moment, it's like going to the detention centre, they used to call it a sharp shop to learn people, my previous people had been on here telling me, because I've spoke to them about it.  Then people forgot what they were trying to do, mate. It's just become the most horrific bullying. I still carry a lot of memories from that, painful watching people get their head punched in, you know, turning their blind eye to it. Horribleest place I've ever been, because then we're getting on his van, unknown to me, green van, we pull out the magistrate's court. I think this ain't too bad, you know, watching a cup. But I always had the eye for watching the manipulation going on between boys on the van. Well, when I got there, jumped out, went get out of there, moved, jumped out of this van. I thought, what the fuck's going on here? And then as I got in the office, his name and number, I didn't even name my number. Can you give me one? So I thought, I said, don't give me one. Bang. Dumb in the stomach, steamed into me.  I'm thinking, what's going on? Then they put me down to a room, shut the cell door, and that was my experience laying there when they load about a hundred faces looking for a flatmate. I go, where you from, mate? Where you from?  This is like game on now. You got me? So that was my first spell of prison. It was only short, but it was a, it made me very bitter and angry when I come out of that first one, yeah. They're the only authority after that. Yeah. Well, you had the doctor there. They're all not, like lots of them, not all of them were worked there, but they were non-sea, cough, drop your strides, all the boys are like, why don't you drop me your strides for a cough, and then you've got all staff behind you. Do you understand what I mean? So I didn't like them. Then I looked at the for it and I said, you know what? I can't stand you. Because it was the wrong impression to give. And I'll never forget, I was going to have a shower and I had to tell them. And I'll see these older boys. They was older than me, 21. And then this officer's got a stick with his tongue out, whacking them.   Yeah? I said, I'm telling you. Yeah? He said, well, I'm going to give Nicky. I'm going to give you five points. I went again, give me five points then. Something to do a point system. Yeah? And I remember this, the tall fella, that guy from Fulham, he went, listen, you're all right, mate. He went, you're starting me. So he's big. And he went, you're starting me, mate. You're good stuff. But I just found it was brutality. It was just absolutely brutality. I'd be a king, I thought. Encouraging bullying. Encouraging to go in on a room and smash someone up, which I was never my way. I didn't like it. You got me? Watching kids cry, getting an iodine. Yeah? Because if he spoke and he'd give the association up, oh, you shouldn't have been speaking. So now, down to say they go, James English, you've lost your association. So now everyone's going to come and see you now. I don't like that. Yeah. You know what I mean? So when you get out after that, Tony, what was the plans? Go ahead. How was your mum and dad as well the first time you were got to prison? Gutted. Yeah, absolutely gutted. Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely gutted. Quite sad, seriously. Yeah. Yeah. My dad was heartbroken. Yeah, he was. I never knew to my mum, Tommy, many years later. My dad was heartbroken. Yeah, my dad was heartbroken to see me pull away on a van. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's quite sad. See now, even now, I'm not a soft guy. Like sometimes, my dad's dead now. I lost my dad years ago when I was on remand. And, you know, that still works for me. Yeah. Do you understand what I'm saying? Of course it doesn't. You know that yourself, like the regime, again, if you're in that environment, they can only do so much. But when you get ages of 14, 15, 16, you kind of think you're a man. Yeah.  Yeah, yeah. It's difficult, but again, if it's your son, you're always going to be there, no matter the crime, no matter what he's done, no matter what age, if you're a loving father. Yeah. And I deprive there. It can be difficult, but... Because my parents work to give, they just try to give us the best, mate. Survive. They didn't want us, they weren't like typical criminal parent family, mate. They weren't parents that encouraged crime. Yeah.  They wanted you proper. And so, they came right away. Do you understand what I mean? They're starting morals, aren't you? So we just trod on their arts, basically. Yeah. Not my sister, he's me and my older brother more, right? They're just literally like, you know, we're just, we were just like at it.  So when you get out to detention centre, 15, 16, was that then your life started to spiral? Yeah, definitely, 100%. Yeah.  You know Yeah, and I thought like Girls love it. You got me in them. I know it's just like don't please don't do it for these girls It's half of these girls ain't no good anyway Yeah, so I don't want any young person see me saying this as if it's gonna Time I thought this ain't a bad old bit of game Yes, you do a bit of time come out. I'm not a film star. Yeah, and then I was just game of this girl and then game of this girl and Yeah, and then I wanted to learn more about addiction. It's like a sexual thing I wanted to learn more another part of my life where I'll you know, I was talking in by I don't know what's like the other tries these women So I'm just gonna call it let's say to look to people I'm well known from years ago Took me in there was about ten years older than me and I was underage really to have sex with them and And I was like it showed me in a way the to me was the the path of the Like that as every education to do with sex in one night So I was like now I wanted to put this to work.  Yeah, listen. It's all Listen, and then when when I went away The second time It was like I went away again. I was at it all the time and then I went away again and Didn't really want to yeah, but I think I was from that moment from the second time I went away to the bull store. It was called bull still then was called why P It's still military training green trousers thingy. I thought then I lost all every Consent who I was Yeah Do you know like as a person I'll start an innocent shaggy. Yeah. Yeah, I started to lose who I was then I was angry the character.   I just love being corrupt camaraderie. You know like I wanted to be all right If there's a fight I wanted to be there with them You know I mean it's like if I miss something I used to be devastated. Yeah, do you understand me life? I missed a fight they've had I feel like I've let them down. I wasn't there Do you understand what I mean?  Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't say the loner kid Spending your time in your room yourself clean your soldiers Definitely, yeah, that's your lease at your best When you get into you taste the sex or the alcohol and all the bad boys and bring in prison You're getting a bad attention, but you're getting it from the wrong kind of people. Yeah Did you that grow your ego then that definitely you thankfully yeah, but this this is not It's a bit more powerful. It ain't just as easy in one day as I'm saying there you got remember that story early years And then I remember the more violence comes The more bigger challenges are gonna come in your lifetime Because I think grow out to be like I was but like I remember Always remember with my family. I wasn't never gonna take a step back. I know it's my brothers So I knew as a family we were never gonna run, you know, I can't speak for them, too But I know Exactly what I mean We was not in the game kind of thing But was on the permit of it and we didn't like being told that we couldn't do something So that's when things started to change as I started having it more my other family members and Moved away from the younger group now come out of prison and started going into another group Yeah, and I started to get established like, you know, we didn't like being told what to do Which a lot of families from that area didn't so one thing I knew The armor never gonna have I wasn't gonna have I wasn't gonna let no one tell me and my family what to do So I looked at is if like the game plan changes because now the violence gets serious Yeah, you're getting like you're getting hurt getting stabbed I've got many scars of fights. I've had where you know You're on a serious level now, mate when you're going to bed of a night time, mate you're thinking I need something else because It's getting well of like well out of its depth now. It's got it's got it's got a bit more crazier You got me? Yeah, but don't just a train fights and that now you're on a different level. So before I knew it I Went through one portal to another a transition without knowing I've gone through a chair and transition People start saying hello to you more Then you go through a transition We are all some people love you challenging all these people who think they're bad Then you go through another transition where you're still nicking girls girls still like yeah.  Can you do this fellow first stuck it on me? Yeah. Yeah, I'll do it bang bang involved Don't worry.  Where's the king of the world champions when he got beat by Buster Douglas? I don't forget even that image when I see his gum shield for a floor and I see the crowd running up to the ring screaming I thought that's just their I feel they was hysterical That if they went King Kong is there and he's got he's trying to pick his gum shield You know I'm against Buster. Yeah, and this woman run to the camera screaming. I was like wow You got me because that's how I felt so then I started getting a lot more I Was starting to get a brutal deep thinker really which is sad because I Started to look at people You know in a very different light I knew when people trying to manipulate I was watching people be nasty So I thought someone was a really nice fellow Then when you go away to go with your girlfriend or do it and then you ask went away for six years after that and I started thinking Fucking You know, I started feeling a bit hurtful about people. You got me using me. Yeah Like I said, you understand what I'm saying James started feeling like even now I still feel it and I can't stand I see it still the day people guys a lovely fellow. It's called Blaine smoke up their arses for their own needs Yeah, yeah, you're seeing that at an early age as well Still sitting it sit day day there. Mm-hmm.  You know, I mean I ain't worthless, but I mean I feel like It's like people like me put people in this world of like me sometimes when the gains get good Then when I turn they want to go guys off cake.  This is to all people out there I'm saying it to everyone the day even the young people There's some good people out there. I've had good people look after me.   Hello come and say hello to uncle So so so so they're not your uncle. They're not the kids uncles Yeah, is that just to say that you're their friend to say?  No, I'm not up with passion They all know what I'm all about people. They watch this ever. I don't know.   I'm saying this is why you're here. You want closure. You want to move on. Yeah, you want to start a fresh real Yeah, you are the creator brother. You are yeah, it's not me being ego Okay, I can look at it meaning You know, I don't know I'm nothing no more. I don't know anyone nothing no more It's just a people who I there's an old saying is don't get even with those avert you get even with those who love you That's a great sign kill them a fix. What's up? Yes, because exactly because I'm allowed to have a bit of life And I'm hurting again now thinking some people, you know This I don't mind not helping anyone that could have a problem with their self or their family cause I don't mind I'm talking about people wanting to use you for violence Yeah, that's not really a friend. Yeah, that's not to take to come and ask you I've had people that I would go That if I asked to help them, they'd still sorry me. They'd still are they'd still say no Because I love them for my heart and I'm still battle to not to help them You know, that just shows you a loyalty then that just shows you how then people could manipulate the situation Because I know how genuine you are now it is no matter how tough you are There's still a softness there in a sensitivity where you can still see the emotions in your eyes even speaking about it You're trying to hold it together to realize all those years a lot of people did use you But you would have met a lot of good people Because I feel angry I can still feel angry now sitting here about it. Mm-hmm.  Yeah, it's all done mate. It's finished. Fair play to you for that finish. No seriously. It's finished It's done. I don't know I'm coming to see me no more for any help. Yeah getting help. What did you do your sex for Tony? I Was in I was looking after some premises Back in the East End of London and Listen, it was a raven's raven sniffing coconut. I've gone for transition to a light party now Talking about ants.  Listen, I could have had everything perhaps. Yeah But my heart won't in it. So when it Because if you understand where we're going from don't lose where we're coming from you can keep track Well, I'm coming from do you understand what I mean? It's up in just a like It's just someone fighting a cause don't even know what causes fighting I'm here to pull it to post I'm fighting this one to that one week in week out. Yeah, I guess I'm on me I'm up above bang another geezer. I'm getting talked about. Yeah, do you hear about him? Oh, mate? He went crash crash done three people here for a time here. Yeah, so I Was in a restaurant once and This restaurant got on with the owners. It weren't like a protection racket.  I've just honestly these people like me But what they didn't realize when they took me on I was a I was I was my brain Was a mess a complete mess because before that sorry, I can't jump back. I was with her I met a young lady who put a bit of investment into me, you know and She likes just met her off the off chance put a little bit of investment in me Another addiction for our you know, this person could save me from you only save yourself You know no one saves you no one and I Went all right for about six months lie to me self. Yeah, I fancy a bit of change here, but I Was no good to no one to be fair best thing any woman We've ever done is get a million miles away from me because I couldn't I couldn't sit down and watch telly Not anyone else I'd have going to the bathroom and have a lot of coke while I'm sitting watching correlation straight because I didn't know how to sit Still or even what a program because me Ed was completely Shattered with like every day thinking about violence up, but I've got a row of him I might have to have around him. This is that was so very real ever switched off And I went to this restaurant this one night and finished this relationship and Fella coming Was quite saucy like you know having a pop at the waiter calling by a foreign name and that and I Said something to him and he said something back be pulled a knife out of me Yeah But there ain't no ego. I just didn't feel nothing. I didn't feel scared. I was just more angry You know like that he made them move first and I thought I went no no problem sat there We look to each other for no problem at all. I went calm down. Yeah All right, he sat down. He I watched him not lick his lips. He felt good about You know confronted me a little bit and I went out the kitchen and got a knife Come back in the shirt and then I went this and I'm going there shake hands and then I stabbed him and Nearly killed the poor man. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I remember It was horrific. Yeah, I looked in his eyes and it was quite a severe stabbing and You know if I look back now Sometimes I look about a lot of my life. I think must have made you must have do sometimes people don't You can talk about it. Like there's no sensitivity of it years ago Now I look back now.  You're not a lunatic. Mm-hmm. It's not good.  I believe I wasn't I was a lad Today, I'm a lad to do what I want. Mm-hmm. I thought I wasn't a lad I'm not allowed. Oh, there's people there who know me. So I thought you now got to do something Because it's the reputation that you've created in your mind. Yeah. Yeah, it's I want to leave it, but I can't because people can actually be a year and all mumbling off thinking Wow, man. Now. I've really got to do something I can't just threaten back Your your ship of cannons and I'll go all right. James English minds here as well. That's not good enough They want to see something. Yeah. Yeah They want to see an action for a fret Yeah But that's not that's not they're doing they didn't fall. That's me. They're my actions So no matter what people made me feel I uh, I felt I always act to end the product. You understand me? Yeah Always act to end it always always always cannot walk away from it. Yeah But that's sick is that for me. That's the sad thing. Listen. I'm not joking, mate. That that kills me still today I would have had a better life But there's been some there's a good friend of my building my life for years.  Yeah Come off the stage.   Sometimes like How did I not have the power to say no To all these people years ago Why have I got to go and help them all?   Yeah, do you understand what I'm saying when my mum suffers when another family suffers who get hurt? Yeah, because that person usually the middle person Listen in the day my actions. No one forces you to stab someone. No one from that's me But these people don't care about them people were hurt the other side And they don't care about the side that I get that hurt on my side. Do you understand what I mean? I'm making sense. Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course.  I'm not giving you any Charlie Biggs potatoes in the view.   Do you understand me because I've got a great team behind me now probation team got some good people still in my life and I'm entitled to some happiness at least surely whether I've done some I've done a lot of bad things to people and I'm very sorry I'm very sorry for like No, because in the world Some of these people make us desensitised Of what we're doing. It's only as you get older You're gonna have to learn the light I think there's every time in a man's life Don't get me wrong I'm still entrenched in a role. I don't like wrongs. I don't like grasses. I'm sorry I don't I don't like sex offenders. I don't I ain't gonna lie about that. I don't like I'm still a man. I won't give someone up Never make a statement. I wouldn't Because that's my rule. That ain't a criminal rule. That's just my rule but Lots of people have given me up The some of these rules that are written I've been given up a lot So it's very hurtful for me to lie over the years. I've always stayed staunch And always will be staunch to the dark Disappear on staunch as they come because that's my just my Thing, you know, I just don't feel like if you want to get there's men today involved in all this Stuff. Yeah They want to run with it. I'm when they're gonna get caught. They want to pass it on to someone else I find that really bad. Do you understand me? Yeah, and that's the world.  You got me. So like James English.  Yeah, but you never grasp me I thought wow, where's the where's it all changed out? Yeah, there's a lot. Yeah.  Yeah, that would help me and I'll help them out Right, then I'll give my life to their kids and I don't understand me and their families because they've looked after me I've come home and their support these great people looked after me How old were you Tony when you stabbed the boy in the restaurant? 23 so still a young boy to have all that pressure that you think you had to do something So when you nearly killed a man, what were you thinking when you'd left?  I didn't live there And uh, this is we get she's mad James. I think back now.  I think lived outside the ump. So I rested me or something forget So my dad was getting up for work in a more looked time. My mum was in a dressing gown Usually seen blue lights. I went I don't live here. Yeah, so I'm coming in the house because You're in the wrong house. So calm down Tony because the police know at that time They was getting a bit. I was a bit of a loose cannon, mate, even with them Yeah, they weren't pulling me up without A lot of a lot of them. Yeah, because So this officer at the time knows who he is to this day probably like, you know He said to me he said to my dad. Have you done a bit of boxing? Which I found a bit of an insult. He went because your nose looks flat. Yeah So I looked at my dad's side on the stairs and I went to my dad Don't worry because I was handcuffed and all the bobbies were in the room. They found some empty tickets of code game right empty Yeah, because at that time they wouldn't have been filled with me with my behaviour But it was just empty to like get some the next day move on whatever And I said it's copper. I'm gonna do you tomorrow Yeah And me Scottish power was like with uh next time I met him. I said no, that's it. I said I'm gonna do you tomorrow He went yeah really who do you think you are? Because I went I am Because I felt like I was hurting because me mum and dad were up again late at night through the door searching everything. Yeah I took that personal do you know what I mean? I said to him, I'm gonna do you tomorrow. I'm coming out My dad and I looked at him. I went I'm gonna do that.  I said, well, I'll leave these on now. This is true stuff I'm not here to talk. There you go. I said we get in the van now Win or lose.  Next I got bell He's got his man. My name for some of his comes and sees me come outside West Ham Police station. They're on me soon as I come down the steps. Just want to search again But my friends just give me some cocaine but I had a little thing in my pocket where I'd sling it around. It was hidden Yeah, so I've slipped that round for our secure as they packed me down gone past that They're looking thinking right.  He's we're walking along the road. I went I've got a phone call as I'm on the mobile walking along And uh, my brother said you ain't gonna guess who's in here. Yeah. Well, who's that? He said the other fella, you know bill and um As we walked in I said I looked over and uh, you know, I look back. I just can't believe I've done this I looked over now. What man knows Every man don't like a prison sentence. No, no man loves Do anything not to go to prison Awful it's worth my prison to go and get him So anyway, I'll go to the toilet and I'm not saying it's big because I don't want to give the wrong message I'm saying how crazy it is. So let's not please think that I'm Building this up as an ego thing. I'm saying that mixed up. I was so I'll go to the toilet. I have a lot of cocaine Walk around to him. I go right there. So I go. Yeah, you all right. It goes you're in enough trouble You want for a stabbing in a thingy. I went over. Yeah Absolutely nylated him. Yeah And uh They was no listen.  I hasn't done all the damages Uh, a lot of people jumped in the cop said no, but I knew he'd done the damages through my fingers But the judge said no, it's an afraid because he's the only one here today So looking at 15 years even then I've reduced down to a fray and then uh Done that on remand And then got the six years for the stabbing And then I knew I was going a bit funny That's when I all the pain started hitting me and then I went to prison on the six year for the stabbing sort of keep you up with all the violence but Then I was stabbing the Sex offenders bashing them putting bread on the cameras in prison I used to get bread on a stick Put him up and a prison officer's going he's one bad one.  She got down in rape. So I couldn't live of it But it always all the prison used to come to me yet again This was a a common occurrence that I Thought why don't someone else do this for a change? Yeah Because I was ruthless I'm not just hurting a prisoner.  You there is a way out If someone would give me a way out years ago Sometimes I'll sit there now. I'm a man's man. I've had tears in me. I sometimes not tears.  When does it stop? Do you understand me? Yeah, and it ain't no glock when you come out in the prison centers. There ain't no beautiful sunshine no music playing You have your party for the night. Yeah Sorry, you have all your shape your hands. Hello. Hello. Hello. Yeah. Oh good man, mate.  Look at this birdie. She's dying to meet you. So god.   Yeah, that's what I'd say. I was he's a knobhead. Yeah What is it? How does it make you feel thinking about all that that you never had the power just to say no at that thing?  Seriously Because I ain't a mug but I am a mug looking back now. Do you think that Easy just a mug. What kind of geezer does does what I do spends 28 years of your life in prison Uh, like whether people respect you not learn talk respect me because I made it made it through I don't not people say I've got a lot of young people who look up to me But I don't want to be looked up to no more Do you understand me because I want to help my friend's sons Even if their dad's don't want to open. I don't want them to take that path because if you think you're like It when you when I've got older I've learned That the world is just like It's not there's no special cotton wool blanket To take away the uh, do you know like sin bad in the golden fleece? If there's something that could go over me to take all that away, I would but it stays with me Do you understand what I'm saying?  I'm having a visit uh Wednesday.  Yeah He's safe for me. I'll get a note from the father.   I think I know you Yeah, seriously, that's nice to go to go top man.   Yeah, you wouldn't think so. Yeah. Yeah, sorry to swear a lot. That's okay. Yeah What it is I'll just get amelied because you know, the real people who know me Know know what I've been through mate, and they care about me. It's the real people I've got a lot of love for still some good people that actually really care for me And if I get in trouble now, they'd still tell me off.   Drugs, fuel, alcohol, lost it. Anger, frustration What do you think you were angry at that you saw that you were letting yourself down or your parents or You know, do you know what someone could say signs me a bar and I if I if it happened I could have gone And I wouldn't stop that was me. Do you understand me?  I knew I was getting used but I just couldn't say no Were you getting a buzz from it as well though? Was it adrenaline kick or anything? No, no, no No, I was quite sad after after a while of violence. I used to get quite sad about it Because me and to be saw this one man once said that he'd have up to two fights a week sometimes two fights a week three fights a week, you know You know and then this ain't from that game for all the K system yet So my life's long. I could sit here with you probably for seven hours Because I'm trying to shorten it down Because it's long even for childhood right, but I'm trying to break it down into the best my I can to You know, yeah, get it done with you.  This was a prison called blunderstone And uh, I think you had jammy on who tell you about this prison There was we it was out of control really no disrespect to the staff there. There was It was it was listen It was every duty, mate. Yeah Played football on a Sunday as to put Metal studs in in scrape them sharp jump up in the air.  Um, it weren't no, um Changing it out. We was uh training There was steroids I'm talking about more coke on the street. So it was a probably puffed and there was we was partying on ecstasy raves I mean Reggie craig was In shot one darling when I'm looking and we had sheets up on the spur When music wall plugged in And we was all dancing like literally four or five these pumping away and sniffing And I I remember saying the Reggie craig ones. Do you want a line? Yeah Even I had one of that off. Thanks an archer in the 60s. I went to another one.  I used to go to cells there if we run out of stuff I was just living for the drug to drink. I just want to I think I just get my mind out of there So in this prison system there We'd go on another wing Put ballies on run up the stairs.   This was in a jail. What? No, I'm swear You would never believe the story of this place. No one can tell it like like I can tell you it mate What neck was this? Blunderson jail? Was that an open? Was that an open? No, it was a high security category b Yeah You think that would be more than lockdown? There were no lockdown, mate. I wanted to get a wrap once a coke It was on the b-wing at the time I'll never forget it. I wanted it because it was friday and then I'll run out of coke The boys were all puffing. I was going in to get eye Yeah, I was on gin in the gym. I they said I couldn't have a punch bag. Yeah I had a punch bag hanging up on the landing. Yeah Oh, well it is they said you can't really have that We was trained it was like a fight club Then some people put cushions around their head just for a bag of heroin Yeah, because no one will aspire each other because we're all in feud on steroids like people from we had a wing from all London all different parts of London Essex was allowed in like so as Essex London Uh, and then you had the Scottish boys over on the airport were friends with us So you'd all the glass go a lot so there was a lot of trading going on my boots They was the brewers of the year Mate the nick was mad then you had an error in wing to marzipan wing This and then you had bond street when I first turned up there the prisons officer He said that's where you get all your drugs all down here.  He said if whatever you want go down that row corridor You can have it. Yes Straight so Oh when it was this gear my mate said tone.  I went Shouted across to the other wing.   This gets going time, mate the morning. Yeah They don't because everyone was like it's going to be gone I've got a magazine. I said right scruffy. We going tone.  Yeah He said my dad. I said because I want to go and get my magazine. He went but only to roll check. I went I want to go and get me magazine. Anyway, it's open the gate.   Is that because you were so violent I had so much I had so much ease and drowsy near and was and the boys one night. I had a blackout I was in there and also I stood up And someone give me a joint.  I hit the floor And uh, I was on the land I crawled out and everyone was nearly writing to get the screws to come up And uh, the doctor just come up and they said was he had an heart attack gov saying they went no He really ain't he said just too much partying and I had a spliff bone right across my chest Yeah, well the spliff was just but people used to walk around officers used to be wired up to the electric and joints In the astray it weren't the office listen.  So I need an home leave. Yeah Yeah, you got me. I need an only if you go you're all right. You know, I put it on him to get you out for three days You know me? It's just that's mental. I swear to god. So I come out after that six years I'll come out I knew I was in trouble Because I was gone. I've been locked looking yourself away with the higher tens of drugs and partying like that In an environment of enclosure and violence I've come out within about 24 hours The geese are right. Um, you know location. We've got a couple of miles scars with our bachelor before I went in So when I come out, I was like Then I've got another I've got another tier you're up So reputations perceive me from there now now I've become a man not a boy So now I want some scores to settle So instead of coming out and thinking let's have a better life or quality or even if you're going to be a criminal tone Go and nix some money No, I'll just like to have a war Got me?  What were you what were you running from tony? What was he hiding from your own method of thinking? What was making you become this violent character?  I don't care. Stop it. It sounds I swear to god, this is something I will choose to share with you But I I don't really want to Is I just wouldn't it be accepted by someone someone to love me generally does that make sense? Yeah Yeah, someone to love me. There's a pal boyfriend girlfriend friend A family member someone to love me through I am yeah, well instead of like Letting me down all the time, you know, I'll give you something more And then you go and hurt me betray me. Yeah, because a lot of people betrayed me, you know, it like hurts me You know, but I should move on from them.  It's gonna be all right. Is that too much to ask?  Yeah. Yeah, so you get some listen There's some good put listen. I've had some good. Don't get me wrong There's some You know, man has looked after me for years lovely guy some father friends that looked after me There's some good people and they want to say have helped me change my life and wanting me to change for the better They know they are good people And uh makes me emotional because they're good good people and uh Do you know they've been in a bit of scope? They just go wherever they ain't or under some are just normal people but they weren't good for me They're the people I respect Not the people want me to just kind of have a role. Yeah, why does it make you so emotional thinking about the people who do give you your love? Do you feel as if you deserve it? Because when you talk about no, I don't think I do because I just think I think a bit of a failure. Do you know what I mean? Just I really do I don't know when people big me up. I think what you're bigging me up for, mate, you know Always say like to the young guys that go to home.   I think time, but we like yeah, I said Yeah, I know you like but like me for me, but don't like me for all the egg Don't like me for all the violence Because I've changed a lot of young boys' lives in prison. Some have become boxers. That's a lot.  This kid through box, which you'll get tonight if you want to get them He said to me once how comes you tell me so much Good stuff about Why haven't you done it? I said because I would I wish someone Would have told me that and uh, you know like sometimes Don't glorify. I said because there's some proper tough men out there. I said but There's probably out of 100 tough men out there. Yeah You're gonna find 50 percent 60 percent of them are rat rats Nasty people are only going to take for what they want. Do you understand me out of you or your wife?  They want to go and sleep with your missus That's what they're all about. Yeah But somebody probably would have told you your dad would have probably told you but you were at that stage Yeah, you wouldn't have listened tony. No, you were so fueled with you know what? I never listened. Yeah Do you know I had I used to go in a pub years ago and then there was some older criminals in there Let's go got slowed down boy.  I used to say them.  They might carry a knife They're never going to use it. Yeah, or if they do use it. It's by accident. Yeah, so I even Learned out when there was a lot of different sections of groups of Criminals I'd go with Like young boys when I was growing up with different areas of young boys So I'd go to the leader even though I knew them too didn't like me I'll go to the leader make the cranes of him.  I knew it before I read the page because it's a shame that are I've gotten that well some entrenched that I'd go move to the leader of that kind of firm Get with him and then get my revenge on the two make such a good power out of him and friendship That now I've got these two to deal with and he ain't going to protect them no more Do you understand or infiltrated? Man, I pirated. Yeah, manipulated, infiltrated. So everywhere I went. I'll go wherever I want to go. You got me? Yeah, so you're back on the ball with mainly the tactics Yeah calculations so sitting in here Joe you imagine being in here looking at all that Imagine the year that's just a tiny touch But like I talked to I've got a good probation team now a good backup team and now I'm just starting to get a bit of help How well you coming on here telling your story today the probation team. Yeah, good. I told them first because um, you know I I've been mucking around for not mucking around for a year. I've just been floating in right It's not dancing. I've got I've had two probation three probation officers And they've been silently telling me waiting for you, mate Because I'm thinking I'm going along and I'm waiting for it to get me off You know, we're waiting for we're waiting for you to start speaking mate because you're not You're going through the motions.     Do you understand what I mean? There's coke. There's ease. There's Partiness madness. Yeah, it's like foot down to the ground non-stop Yeah, yami who you met yami who's been on who's tried to change his life So shout out to yami. He's been 40 years in prison and now he's doing his thing He's yeah, he's finding his feet. He's finding his rhythm. Yeah, he told me our story when he was in prison I think a couple of people were trying to get Back Larry with him and you've yeah, there's a case. Yeah. Yeah me was like I mean disrespect like he was someone There was a fella there and uh, I wanted to get on I started to really really started to get paranoid through the dispersal system.  I won't mention his name was once I've come off it everyone. Well don't tell me like Give me a bit of praise 10 years. Yeah, some people well, it's 20. So I come off it 10 years. He went Well, how did you go off that then shown I've done like nine years on it. Well, I ain't murdered no one I look through the fence.  Yeah They're just so Some of these criminals grass you up in here. I had a gym session extra gym session. Peter. I went to home I was under 40 then I wished I was today, but I ain't but I was under the under 40s then and the gym session I had one extra the gyms was at home. Sorry, mate. Can't have I went.  I've got a long time. Give us a break.  It's money.  They all know they are but there's some good guys in there And I really feel for suffering. They've come out. I've got some good friends I've gone along that that's in the trenches with you got me Like yami. I've never ever thought I see a change in yami Fucking yami like Yami was just someone I talked to a lot Yeah, and he knew he's to look at me and know whether I wanted to speak or not Because I was like, you know, I haven't picked his moments of me and I love yami for that. We're going back a long way And it's a pleasure to see some of these boys come on here Then you get the boys go. Yeah, look at that guy going on there.  Yeah, we don't care. We don't have to take no ego We're not carrying our ego flag no more and they're probably the same guys. You'd want to come on here But yeah, it's probably the same guys at stock yen the cat is for your gym session Exactly Do you know what James? You couldn't put it better yourself. Do you understand me?  Um, yeah uh Anyway older about week old And I'll come off the catties moved that makes me quite emotional funny love I order in the arm and I thought to myself Like this let's don't live with a bottle on a visit and you weren't supposed to stand up.  I know this little girl here. And it's what I say to these young people You got there's children in your life and things like that It's like Taking away people's fathers from them I started to understand That you know like, do you know what I mean? Yeah all in love and war sometimes year No, mate, not for me no more. You know me because that little girl in my arms. I thought I've just done 10 years, mate I looked I thought I've got I'd be there for this little girl You got me? I actually was so sweet and I felt dirty I'm never gonna forget that.  That's how crazy I was But there's not been one Action I've done Really that I could say has been justified Fair comment. Yeah, that's all I know the truth. Yeah, that's what beats me up today. So that was a moment for you then where you realized Life your life can change in moments seconds. We didn't get to where I went away for a murder as well Yeah, which we'll touch on. Yeah now. So the moment it really changed your life.  Yeah, and uh And I always still had people I went to a Grendan then Where there's some good staff there But I was dealing with people after rubbing my shoulders up on purpose, mate pushing me to the limits like grasses uh, nonces like people were acting tough in there like I mean former Still wearing there like gang colors and things like that who have grasped all their mates up Oh, I don't agree with that.  No, and uh, I had sex offenders nudging me in dinner queues in there You know, I mean, how did that affect you though from stabbing them inside prison and on season sex offenders to Be there surrounded with them because I know a lot of people who's went to grab it There was only one there was only a couple on my wing and I couldn't I found it very hard to tolerate and make me physically uh you know I feel but I think I spoke to my friend once on the phone. I'm gonna can't do this no more to my Mate Melmate and he went me time. Come on, mate. You're there now, mate And but listen, let me tell you what some great stuff that I've got a bigger map, mate because let me tell you what I don't know.  Vigo is big. I can go no no one helped me They was good because I lost me. Uh, I lost a kid years ago and this woman helped me out there. Do you got me? So There's some good stuff there. But you've got a lot of people riding in there Yeah, they're going there for an easy bit of time. You know what I mean? Yeah, and uh, I've looked at him on a meeting and thought god when you get back to normal prison, mate You're in like You know, a lot of people's went to grinding. I've had no raise. I sniff on the shows Totally changed. No, I love no no and me No found me hard work. They asked no that was quite Always needs to save me time That's no surprise though Tony Yeah, yeah, seriously, no was like but no done a lot of help for me No, and a few others and uh, a Scarce fellow there was it was good a lot of people done and they give me some nice visits They're letting me to have a time with my family Like my family like like they used to come up like just like ladies used to come up and that and I used to just Have a nice time and be able to talk without being on an hour and a half visit You know start to like have a bit of attention to me and like, you know, I mean, yeah, but um Yeah, but You know, I didn't know where I still had no voyage in there, mate I don't know where I was gonna land and that crazy I had some pipe dreams Then I had these visions. I wanted to go to an island in Scotland somewhere right out of way Where I only I live on it.  What was the day before?  No, no, no he wasn't an enemy. No No, he was all right. He was he was all right, mate.  Yeah Yeah, other people. Yeah, just other people made us enemies. Yeah, we weren't enemies still though. We would we just fell out but um Yeah, it was sad. Yeah, because other people like that's too The people grow like to me like listen as again my actions not blaming anyone else for this. It's me right, but uh Yeah, I laid in bed for a long time I had to I had to crush that fault for a long time because they're the two men responsible really Even I'm responsible for my listen. No one told me to do that Yeah, but two people got it going. Do you understand what I'm saying?  Yeah all the stories people were they weren't the right stories Me and him was having a right time there and I wanted to do someone that was with him and uh He begged me not to and then the other geese has uh got him involved and the other fella got him involved and That's all I'm gonna say. No, she was in 1980 90. No, that was the six years I got in 1991 No, 1992.  Yeah, they look we're all gonna say. Yeah, but you didn't have to do it.  I've let them go believe me and they're lucky. I'm not really in that I don't want nothing more to do that, but That's all right. I carried that for a long time.  Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah, definitely 100 and the other geezer on the other side. I pushed that man to come out and help him Yeah, there you go.  So don't bother because uh, I'm not nothing.  Yeah, so I ain't nobody I ain't no legend Yeah, I know because you haven't called me a legend yet. I understand that a legend as in friendship That's what he means. So don't people get yummy. It's good stuff. He don't mean a legend me off like I'm a bad boy And I can take on everyone because I can't you know what I mean? But as in a legend as in a legend, I've got on with people That's called me legend by that because I am well liked by a lot of people up north Glasgow as you say everywhere because I'm a legend because I'll get on with people and people get to know the real me I'm all right.  Yeah, badly. Yeah, those to think people took the person Yeah, I'm still paranoid of it now. Yeah of the love To find someone loves me. I find it very hard to accept.  Yeah, of course. Yeah.   It was just completely gone. I must say if my mind If I could think back to that my mind This is a mad thing. I really actually wanted to do the two people Before I went before I left that scene I were unhappy with the consequences. I wanted the two The one with me and the one with the person at the time. You got me? Because I think they geared it up a bit So when I was he's dead. I've done life sentence come out. Oh, man.  So, you know, and the man you killed sorry for his family. You know, I've never I've never felt like Happy about him. Never felt good about it. Yeah, do you understand what I'm saying?   Yeah Yeah, and when you get nicked for a big serious crime, mate, let me tell you what they do There's not a lot of men that can go in a police station, mate No, they're gonna get 20 years and I think it keeps them because I've always kept my mouth shut and always will But let me tell you what there's enough men gonna agree with me now Most there's a lot of them that break Yeah, and I took pride in not breaking. I thought they broke Yeah, I ain't broke.  Do you understand me?  They're the slugs and the snails these people, you know But, you know, no grievances with them no more long time ago You know, they would have been You know, I've been greatly after them bats like first early days of my sentence, mate I was unhappy about them people then people live your life get on with it I hope you've changed because I hope you ain't still causing destruction But listening to your story, Tony, if you never murdered that man, it would have been someone else eventually Yeah, definitely listen could be more than like, you know, it's just I was out of control Because we spoke earlier and the man who you killed says what was his last words? Yeah That's powerful Well, then things hit me that one ball answer it because I'm a man. Yeah, good call. Yeah, because I'm not going to be a coward Um, I looked into my news evidence.  There ain't no grams, but They are I'm glad I've left that with them as well because that's what he said.  There's kids as young as 10 taking drugs You're part of that problem.   No, no I've got a lot of friends in prison for murder. I've had family members that have been murdered I've had family members and friends that have been involved in a murder I've seen the destruction.  You can see that motion even speaking about No matter what you speak you can see you wear your heart and your sleeve You can see you kind of guy you'd phone up and you're there in the heartbeat. No questions asked Yeah, definitely.    Thank you. Yeah Yeah, so you're here today to to set some closure for yourself because all these podcasts We'd like we spoke I don't sit with any questions in front of me.  They kind of get back into a corner where they fought There was no other way out, but there's always a choice.   I'm sorry even for that man's family For anybody they might watch this. What would you say to them?  Just um, you can't say sorry sorry ain't good enough to be fair. So Uh, and you can't get forgiven. So there you go But I don't know if it makes sense.  I don't ask for sorry for people. You're not all forgiveness. Do you understand me? Yeah, I understand me. Yeah, of course. All I'm gonna say is I'll carry I'll carry genuine sadness in my heart You can see that you can see that Don't say sorry for people.   I'm sorry. I jumped on that question you asked me and he was a nasty nasty nasty nasty bully always shouting out never been defeated I was about 12 and a half stone at a time and uh yet again I'm watching impester people the life out of people Giving people a slap here slapped an old date like an older man Well, it's my I don't like mentioning people's names because it's unfair and I'm not here. He slapped an um I started doing frankly phasers so I started sleeping a slap mate I said I dug him and had a little fight and give the phasers Sonny's jewelry had to go back.  Yeah So I've gone like um, oh Where are we having that? So anyway comes down to the op plate next day. This fucker's got a neck That's why does this table work? I mean if you just can't probably see that table, but he's next like this I just thought Nope This is the learning I'm trying to learn because I've had the baby. I'm well, I ain't got to the baby in my arms yet But I still want to go out. I'm getting to the stage now. I want to come off the Cat I want to move I want to get some I've got some lightly in the tunnel 10 years in And then I've got another do you know, I even had a party not party Like I'd give everyone a meal on me wing because I've done 10 years Then once I get in the mill and I was all happy, you know come off the k. I was going.  I'm like, I might be a bit of a debate on that one 200 kids of a food But I thought what are you celebrating about you got another decade to go? So anyway, this fella comes down to your plate next day. So what I'm telling these youngsters, mate There's people in there. We're going to put one in you for moving their saucepan I've seen it burnt off fact their edge completely burnt their eyes have gone faces melted. It's a violent place He's like this fella said something to me about where I'm from. Yeah Yeah, yeah, I've heard about you boy.  Yeah Yeah I'm looking at him.  I said I thought oh Then the whole world is life boys who are watching this is Sonya They know home to go to can't jump in a cab Can't go meet some of your friends Can't go and pull his thing out go and plot one up. You are in 18k, mate.   Yo, what's that about, mate disrespect as a people in the cat Is that get their head down though and don't get involved Yeah, sorry. Yeah, don't get me wrong. There's a few But there's like As everybody's still trying to make a name for themselves. Yeah, but this fella I've gone on the yacht plate Yami's uh running a row. Yami's happened to be there at the right moment Right time the moment he's saying like he always is. Yeah, so Yami was in there. Good luck to Yami. I'm only saying that He's a different fella, but Yami's there. I've got Yami and I have you and I said to him He said to the yacht plate something so anyway I said I'll see you in a minute then. Yeah, we'll have it. Yeah. Yeah, all right So I come out of the unlock. Yeah, I've tucked me track suit bottoms in Always put a vessel on something right.  I've gone up to him I thought let's hope this does it well because I've just finished a very good call school cognitive self change And obviously it wasn't actually a good call.  I thought sweet Calm it down. No way to stop Cut all the emotions out. No, what's driving me for the violence Yeah, what they don't realize some courses is he ain't learned it So unless he's learned it It's not gonna really do much as it go. Hold up.  No, do you understand me James?  Yeah, so I looked up Yami's there He's He's everywhere. Yeah, so I see Yami in the corner and Yami's like, oh, it's going here And I went, listen, mate, do yourself a favor Don't want to talk to you. Don't talk to me.  He's lost on now. I've got him But there's some good fighting people above us on the next level There's about eight of us in that dispersals. There's a lot of us in this burger fight There's six or seven that stand right out. Yeah, they know they are good fighters dangerous people And uh, they're on the landing. So they are. Well bull market them. They're like meaning like they're more with me than this fella Then Yami's like what yams on it. Yeah Why he can't keep still Yami? He's like what's going there Yami's thinking Tony's dead, mate He's picked a fight with a every weight that he cannot possibly sizeably manage to win.  It's like they've stuck him together Oh, so now he's looked at with him Yeah, he's gone. He looked at me and this ain't the glorifier this shows you what you're going to deal with when you're getting near Yeah, this is what I'm trying to say. He's then gone.  What do you want to do about it?  I've run down the stairs and we're not supposed to go out But the prison officer let it go on I've gone out to the laundry room. I'm thinking I'm not heavy enough, mate.  So I'm waiting for him He's taken his time to come down any man's in a rush for it. You come down fast. Yeah As he comes through the door, he pulls his tracksuit bottoms up like the green mole I just can't see the sunlight coming from the door. He's yet to that big.  I went to my mate keep an eye out for us. He went telling I can't watch this, mate Yeah, but I don't know. I think the door of him, mate.  I'm on my arm. Yeah So Yami's still trying to get Yami's getting everything Yami is in full seat. He knows exactly where it's gonna go He went I want to word for you. What this bully does.  That is yeah, because I'm about to smash the granny out of him and I'll tell you what I've done I absolutely pulverized him through the art I was so sad as I was doing him. I thought I'm fucked now more years Yeah, because violence when you're in there and all Don't think you're getting out early because that's listen any any incidents in here violently your sentences your life sentence Is just going I've got 99 years recommendation of 20 Yeah, that can go on the 99 years in there, mate and carry on all the way through 200 So day in there day in there if you want So I smashed him to a pole the worst thing was when he when I finished in the first time he'd come out I'm sorry.  It's worse Because I first got my life sentence go skip back to that story. I've got in a sweatbox and I thought I looked out the window a went through banks from the old bay level.  Of course.  I was counting and um It's like I was relieved But when you get in here Everyone's laying over This one from this era is waiting for you this one. He's looking at you. Is he a bad guy this guy? Is he a nice then when you want to try and be a good boy and you want to change what you do That's when you're most vulnerable So I'll finally sad that is far for most young men to change in prison That's sad because they're vulnerable when they change their vulnerable. What was it like? I was I was quite well known in prison I'm not scared of saying I I stood for what I stood and everyone knows that But you can even I felt vulnerable times when I started feeling towards my family when I started heading towards the Litlins and That I started to feel like I was losing my armory. What was it like when you got your 20 Tony? What was that day when you got your 20? What do you think were you numb? Uh, I just called it. I think I called it judge something and um, I went to wreck. Yeah, yeah I didn't even know you ended it down I didn't even know you ended that down to be I weren't listening And I was having like a lot of rousing in the dock where the officers threatened them and kept saying of course Don't touch me and uh Walking back you've ever seen the film stir crazy. Yeah as you're getting it and they go.   Yeah I get it says go I was thinking I'm gonna freak out in a minute Someone's got to play through the wall and take me away from this nightmare Yeah, and they're all changing me. They're walking me fast and I'm going like as I'm walking That is when you know, yeah, this is what I'm gonna say to everyone. I'm gonna try and help.  Do you understand me?  I stole more tests. They're worse. They brought that fellow on who I've done there. Yeah I was trying to come off the kate provocation. Yeah They moved him to my wing They full well that he's got a shank. Yeah, they've brought him over to my wing Now, are you trying to reform me? Or are you trying to get me more life sentence?   I'm just talking about some I don't always generalize as everyone Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah, some people have literally when I've had someone I Like I've had staff that try to one of really see you get out a prison in the later stages They're trying to fire to help. Yeah, you got me. But some of them shouldn't be there Because then they're right report on you. However, mr. Argent seems to be very dangerous still course.    Yeah, every single day.  This is the truth. I sat down And I don't even know if I've done well when I come across on this interview I hope people can understand because sometimes I can't break it down because it's too much So don't know the problem was gonna ask me. Yeah, right. This is when did you start? I said, listen, can we stop this? Can I just tell my story? I'm not gonna lie about who I am What I've done Yeah, well go on in no solicit got involved No personal officer. He was a great man trying to get me I had a personal officer that actually was so good.  Yeah It's that bad thing He was a real good man.  He's fault for getting me out to a deacat. Yeah. Yeah For what's he doing this for? Why is he interested in me? Yeah, but he was Great man.  Seriously. Great man Celebrated when I got me deacat. So I got there. I thought I'm not getting it out Had a lot of trouble at home as well before that started cutting a few people off of meeting me family because they're That's quite sad You know Lost a good part of me family for a little while. I've gotten back now Just went a bit funny in the end with all the build up to it. You got me Uh, they said called me back in the office told him my story I went anyway at the end of the day.  That's what I said to him That's exactly what I was used of.  Yeah, call me back and they went mr. Arjun Probably we hear people go I've been on this course that course and this course and I'm a changed man That I said to them they said and how would you how do you feel today? What would you do still feel violent? I went yes, I'll do every day Yeah, most people go you can't say that I said it.  Not good. No Not good Not good at all still battling brother still battling, mate. Yeah. Yeah, I'll say that the motion still battling. Yeah So the last 15 months for your house it being it's getting better now. Yeah at the beginning. We're gonna last Couldn't see myself lasting now No, I could not see myself lasting mate No, all little spiritual things happened me for reason. I started seeing your pod show because I'm interested I watch I thought what's he got to say this fella who's on here? All right, I'll usually I'll go to indoors. I go indoors and say who's this geezer here. What's this geezer, mate?  You was in prison. Yeah, you're on there giving it the big end Then I'll see some generally good people coming on From your show and I and not because I'm sitting here with you. You ain't dragged me. I'll come here to you Yeah, I've looked for you. Yeah, and I when it's up for this man and I see yummy on there.  I know all these guys Quincy Yeah, yeah, what's it called? Um Oh, it's the other black guy going on there. Uh, leave leave right smith. Yeah, I've seen all of them come on the fault Do you know these boys?    You can see that motion.  You can see the pain behind you. I can see it.  You're on the right path to better your life You're going to have the question marks now. You say you want loyalty and people to love you But even when that happens, you push them away. Yeah, so you do you that's what you want There's people there is often Trust me. I do. So it's like the abandonment issue is kicking Yeah, you don't want to hurt you.  Yeah, I want to say I told you so. I knew you was going to do that to me Yeah, yeah, I find it hard when someone don't do it to me. Then I'll get paranoid You know, I thought that your barriers drop and people realize that you're not as tough as you are when you're just actually a sensitive man I wouldn't be only in there. Yeah, because I'll need to help some people If I can help any young man out there or any young woman or any young girl because they're in games that listen, I ain't Giving a load of bull. Listen, please listen to me, mate I've got a lot of respect from a lot of people for the right reasons, but Don't respect me for the egg You know me Don't respect me because I felt there's a lot of people out in Would speak to you about their boxing life that I've changed and it ain't been about glorifying fighting I've talked to them with words of wisdom about life Like life skills how to learn to You know not react on certain things focus on I still give off some young people now ring me good boys like the box and tell me he rings me for advice sometimes goes I think I'll just tell him that good advice when I fucking can't tell it to myself sometimes But I'm starting to tell me it myself. Yeah, yeah This is massive for me to let go massive. Yeah, massive. Is it speaking about to Torney? Um, I thought I felt like we're doing too well with to speaking to today because I'm a bit all over the place All right, but I wasn't because it's emotion But um, you know, you can't just sometimes generalize it and write it down like we're doing brackets Like a mess some yeah comes out as it comes out. I jump to one for another. There's that much in there You know, I mean, yeah, we've not even scratched the suffers But the more important thing is you've been honest about emotion the pain that you've caused the heartache Like I say some people won't forgive you, but that's fine as long as you forgive yourself and understand that You can control now the future of your life to then help others. You will battle every day.  It's life is a slog life is painful But it's how you drive it to Whatever you want. You can have a good life. You can have good days You will have bad days just like anyone you are human You aren't immune because you served over 20 years in the jail.  You're still pushing forward. You want to make a better life from yourself.  You'll get a lot of respect and love for this I know you've started on instagram as well. Um, tony argent. I'll leave the link in the description You want to get a book out? Documentary is possible fulham.    It ain't nothing like peeky blinders.  Please don't believe it all.  Do you understand what I mean? Vic darts are someone I know Vic said a good thing. I'm sure Vic said once we're waste Do you know what I mean? What we what Vic was ready to do and Yeah, that's proper.  I speak as a fine as I won't be sitting here now. Yeah, yeah Blink before we finish up we'll touch on blink. That's guy guy. Blink, man.  Yeah, I love blink, mate I go blink blink when we do we say when I first got the long note and there was um Well, uh, we was crazy me and blink. There's a well cup come on and uh, England were playing I'm not right full of the English supporter, but uh They know a crowd's whistle when there's a penalty That long whistle noise me and blink used to do it and everyone's like, what's the matter? Blink and me used to do it all the way through.  Good man. Ronny looked after me. Yeah, they're good things. Blinks down and on He's that for Ronny out there as well. Good man. He's the uh, he was at the phone box once And uh blink pulled down someone I think pulled down his shorts weren't blinked but someone else did And Ronny got so sick of this on the occasion. He just flicked him off We're standing in the phone box naked like this And the woman governor come round.  Good times Olly We had a good spur down there. Paul Brian, you know Go Gary any loads of people Johnny go loads of good stuff. Yeah, I mean it's good But Tony for coming on today, brother and then pulling your heart out and opening up It takes courage that shows you how far you've come to try and change the chapter and flip the page and to move on With your life. Would you like to finish up on anything? Uh, yeah, just of um Yeah Just I'm hoping that from the day I leave here is just a bit more peace Now, do you know what I mean? I am so I'm quite positive But uh, and sorry for anyone. I've caused any problems to Sorry, I said I wouldn't use it. But there's only one word for it. There ain't a mother made up word for it But I'm generally if I've hurt people along the way You know Then like that was what it was then but it ain't what I was now. So, you know I'm I've never I've never been happy and what I've done. So Yeah, that's good enough for everyone, you know, and I'm working hard to change others So that's the least I can do is to help some other people not Cause any more grief than what I've done. Do you understand what I mean? Fair play, Tony It's a lot of bravery to come on today to share your story, especially with the reputation that you do have You're still young You're clearly sorry for your mistakes that you've done the dammies that you've caused And only thing you can do now is prove to people actions speak louder than was to now and become A better person trying to help others and trying to balance out life a bit and bring some goodness into the world You're clearly a good guy. I genuinely want to see you do well man. You're clearly honestly Honestly, I mean that and we've got a documentary. I'm going to get you involved in next year as well, which shows Yeah, should help and yeah. Yeah, we can just keep chipping away. You can just keep trying But the fact that you're here shows you how far that you've come back. Thank you. Yeah, thanks Thanks, bro. Listen. No, I really appreciate it mate. Love you, bro. Thanks mate. Cheers, James. 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