So a prepared introduction sounds a lot more formal than what it actually is just a slide that says hi. I'm Nathan That's me. So I am from Birmingham, Alabama Where it is exactly the same weather as it is here, which is not right in some way I got here my wife said so is it cold there and I'm like, yeah, it's like 30 degrees, but it's a dry cold It did work. Yeah, okay. All right. Yeah, I actually did say that she didn't think it was funny But I said that they'll probably think it's funny here. Maybe not So I am the lead organizer for word camp Birmingham. I love word camps. I did 10 word camps last year Probably do 12 this year all across the country and I'm really really excited to be with you guys today I'm the host at I themes training which how many of you are familiar with I themes we do backup buddy I think security number of other plugins. Okay, so We do it's like word camp all year long. It's webinars one to three webinars a week all year long So I do I present some and I host all of them. I have been a freelance business owner since 1995 Which means I'm a geezer when it comes to all things tech You know, I started coding websites when the internet was just beginning to walk upright So I've used all the tools in the world and move to WordPress about 2010 Love love WordPress love the community. I started as a business coach for WordPress freelancers a few years ago And that is a passion of mine. So Let's talk about why we're here, which is how many of you are business owners or freelancers or somebody working with clients? How many of you enjoy working with clients? Okay depends on the client right, okay now that's another talk all together, but What we're gonna talk about today is something that I feel is very important and that is how many of you do something like hey We're sitting down over a cup of coffee talking about your website for the first time a Meeting with the client That's what I call the client consultation and if you're not careful you can really end up wasting a lot of time So I call it the scope strategy and I'll explain that in a little bit But it's really had a master the client consultation get the most out of that time that you're investing with the client So one morning. I'm sitting in a coffee shop And I'm meeting with this brand new person I just met over the phone once and we're talking about his website and I think you know This is a person that really has some potential if you ever had that feeling You know you meet with somebody you're kind of clicking the coffee's good you're talking and I realized it's been 45 minutes And this guy's still talking about his dog that escaped from the fence last night and how he's wandering the neighborhood now I love dogs. We have two they're both rescues. I love dogs But I don't love dogs 45 minutes worth in a coffee shop with somebody I bet you barely know right that's not why I'm here So it's been like 45 minutes and when we finally get around to the website This guy doesn't know what he wants what he needs what it's budget. He has no clue.  So if you ever spent hours talking to a client and gotten nowhere in a first meeting Okay, so one day. I'm sitting in my car and I've just finished Meeting with a client. I think the meeting is going very very well, and I'm convinced I'm gonna get the project Have you been there? You know you have this great meeting or it's a great phone calling. I mean I've got this one We're gonna get this one signed and you know I'm sort of doing a happy dance as as much as a person can while sitting in a car and then it hits me like you know That feeling again.  I Forgot to talk anything about Maintenance services for their WordPress website And if I've learned something over the years It's that if you don't start talking about the maintenance contract in the first conversation. You're never gonna sell it So I thought ah I missed it. So have you ever? Left a meeting with the client and realized that you forgot to cover something important for the project ever done it Yeah Okay, so I'm sitting there checking my email one day and I'm waiting on a reply from a client that I'd send a proposal to and You know, this was a proposal that to be quite frankly I was a little nervous about and I spent hours anybody spent hours Pouring over the proposal making sure all the adjectives are right, you know, and then you're tweaking the pricing, right? Okay, should I charge thirty five hundred dollars or maybe it should be thirty eight hundred dollars thirty seven seventy five Because they say sevens are good in pricing, right? So you get all the psych and you use psychological stuff with pricing and you're arguing around yourself And you spent three hours on this proposal and then I get the email back from the client. I'm all excited After I'd spent hours agonizing the reply from the client was I was thinking it was gonna be like 750 bucks Ever had that conversation? So have you ever? Spent time agonizing over proposal like that only discover you were way off the client's price point If you have it then you're awesome because this those are three scenarios that I hear all the time from freelancers, so This is why I'm talking this morning You desperately need a strategy for client consultations desperately So what we're gonna talk about today is the first of all the purpose of a client consultation and then what I call the scope strategy It's an acronym and that acronym will keep you on track through the course of a client consultation You won't forget anything. So by the way, I'll pause for questions at the end of each section I don't know how much time we're gonna have this is usually like an hour So we'll see what we are on time. Maybe we'll do questions definitely questions at the end when we have time But if you're a freelancer or a business owner Let's have lunch today. Seriously, let's get a table full of people, you know other like-minded business owners Let's just talk about WordPress business. Okay, so find me at lunch. Let's talk. Okay, so Why do we need the scope strategy? We need a scope strategy to take control of the client meeting You are spending your time with this client. You're not being paid for it yet So you are spending time you got to think about your time that way you're spending time to meet with the client So you got to make that time count, right? So let's talk about the purpose. Why are we here? What are we doing and really I find a lot of times that when you're trying to figure out what you're doing It's better to start with what you shouldn't be doing So this is what the client consultation is not The client consultation is not you trying to sell a website. You got to get that thought out of your mind The first meeting with a client think of it like a first date Because you got to figure out if this relationship is going to work or not. How many of you have taken bad clients? That's all really nobody else has had bad clients. I've had like 80 Okay, so in that first conversation you got to make sure this thing is going to work Don't go in there trying to sell a website because you're going to miss all the red flags the client throws in that Conversation we're going to talk about that in a minute The client consultation is not To refine the client's business plan If you've ever spent time with a client over coffee helping them hammer out what they're actually trying to do This is not you're not being paid for this yet This is a consultation to figure out what the website is supposed to be not what the client in their business is supposed to be Now that's a separate service that you may or may not be able to offer But that's not the purpose of the initial consultation. It's also and this is a good way to think of it in your mind The initial consultation is not to answer howl questions You're there to discover the what of what needs to happen. Does that make sense? The howl comes later after a check has been cashed The what is what you're doing in that initial client consultation? And by the way the link I'm going to give you at the end has all the slides So if you're furiously scribbling down, you'll be able to download all these slides as a PDF. No worries Also, when we get to the strategy, there's a one pager. I'm going to give you with all the questions on there So you don't have to scribble So this is what the consultation is not what is it really about here's the five purposes of the client consultation And it's wrapped up in this acronym of scope and what we're going to do is go through first of all Just what those letters stand for then we're going to spend some time on each section Okay, so the essence scope is really easy to remember it stands for scope. How about that easy, right? So as in scope stands for scope you need to learn enough about the project to create a proposal for most of us That's where that it stops But there's four more steps that we need to take into account So first scope that's what you're probably used to and you sit down with a client the C is chemistry You need to determine if this is a client that you can really work with or not Okay, the O in scope is ongoing services explain the importance of your ongoing services And let me just say this you do have ongoing services, right? You're offering WordPress maintenance plans and hosting maybe and whatever because if you're not I promise you it is virtually Impossible to be successful in a WordPress business as a freelancer If you're not offering some sort of ongoing recurring revenue, that's another talk. The P in scope is process Set expectations with a potential client by walking them through the process that you'd make to build a website By the way, do you have a process that you use for every client every project every time? If you don't you should E is estimate and this is the secret sauce Provide a ballpark estimate and get client buy-in. I'm gonna get more into that now using this method and say I hate that I always struggle over whether to put this slide in or not literally at the bat during the radio show this morning I was deciding whether or not I was gonna put this slide in because I don't want it to feel like oily salesy, you know Whatever, but honestly this process works. I closed over 90% of the proposals that I made last year using this process Okay, so not trying to be oily salesy, but it does work Okay, let's dig into the essence scope and this is where we're gonna spend the most of our time because this is where all The questions are to uncover all the hidden landmines in this project that you may or may not be about to take on So in the essence scope we're trying to learn enough about the project to create a proposal So here the there are five main buckets of questions. This is the way I like to visualize this as you are Looking at this conversation Five buckets of questions now you can go in and out of these buckets as you want to just to make the conversation natural You can make it structured you can make it whatever you want to make it But these five buckets need to be covered in the scope conversation So the business purpose website launch and budget so and I would say look you need to create some sort of a checklist for yourself for every conversation or You're gonna forget something how many of you forget something if you don't have a checklist because I sure do if pilots Who've been flying for 30 years still run a checklist to take off into land or whatever? I Need a checklist no matter how long I've been doing this. Okay, so let's talk about the business This is the first bucket the business bucket starts to ask some questions that I find most freelancers Don't ask in a client consultation, which is hey, what's your elevator picture coffee shop answer when somebody wants to know? What it is that you do how do you answer what do you do? What do you make what is your competition? Who's your ideal customer? Why do why should they choose you instead of the competition? Now there's a few more here as well. What's your price point? How do your customers find you now? Do you have their brand identity now your goal in asking these kinds of questions is to figure out? Do they really understand their business or not? Because I've had lots of conversations with clients that have this grand idea That is simply an idea with no plan to get there And if you it's impossible to be successful building a website when the client themselves don't understand What they're even trying to accomplish? Now let me let me caveat that by saying you can build a website. I mean you can we can all build a website, right? But it may or may not be successful and Whether you're successful in the website or not depends on what the client's goals are and if they've Articulated them to the place where you can actually reach them So, you know the client may not be ready for a website yet And that's okay if not suggest some sort of consulting arrangement Maybe you can help the client figure those things out or work with a marketing person that can help the client figure those things out but The business bucket is all about figuring out does the client understand what he or she is really trying to do Then we get into the actual purpose bucket How does the web fit into your marketing strategy? Is it like you know, we hope if we build it they will come Doesn't work that way anymore How does this fit in? Why should your ideal customer come to your site? What are your goals for your website? So the goal in this bucket of questions is to figure out how much strategy assistance am I going to have to provide to the client? Is that going to be part of this proposal or not and again the client may not be ready So it may be time to suggest a discovery phase Which is essentially just another scope of work where you're going to say we're going to answer these five questions It's going to cost you this much and at the end here's a document with all the answers from that we can build your website Now we get to the part of the bucket of questions Which is where most people start and end which is just what do we want the website to be and to do and you're probably already Asking questions like this. Do you have a domain name? Who's our point of contact? Where is content for the site going to come from that's a loaded question, isn't it? How many of you have had clients that expect that you the web professional are going to provide all the content for the website? Yeah, it's not the way it should work Yeah, so roughly how many pages is the site going to include we need to kind of know is this the five-page brochure site or is this like Danelle has a site where there's eight million capacitors, right? Seriously talk to her about that 7,000 who wants to do that site? 7,000 capacitors since Yeah Are they going to be blogging or sharing news items? They're going to be selling things online. Do they need an event calendar? Do the clients need to log in for any reason because that's a very deep and dark burrow that we have to go down Are you going to use social media? Which networks do you have videos? Testimonials by the way, do you have the testimonials already because that can take four months? Is there any third-party integration at all that's going to be required? Should the website simply be a credibility piece or do you want to generate leads from search results? If you write down one question write down that one Because what you'll find is many a lot of people don't want to spend the money on SEO and guess what sometimes that's okay Wordpress does pretty well out of the box with SEO everything structured correctly And a lot of clients don't have the infrastructure to handle a hundred calls a day They want to have a nice piece that if they're out talking somewhere that here's my domain name in this site Gives credibility to who I am So it's a good question to ask aside from communicating information. Is there anything else the website needs to do? I always end the conversation with that question. Have we missed anything? So the goal here is to create that solid scope of work in the proposal that we're going to give to the client Then move into the launch bucket and again, I'm going to give you all these questions on the one pager So don't worry about scrolling these down Do we have a deadline? How do you handle email?  Oh, oh The client has 86 email addresses on their old cPanel hosting system And now we've got to move all that stuff somehow and oh lord am I gonna have to set up all those new email addresses on client computers? No, thank you By the way, how many of you do email for your clients? Good not many Email will drive you absolutely insane I quit doing email for clients about three years ago because I realized actually four years ago I realized that 80% of my support inquiries where I got a new iPhone. I can't set up my email Email is an IT issue not a web design issue by the way, that's a great answer for the client Who's gonna be responsible for maintaining the site after it's been launched? That's a great little segue into the sectional ongoing services So your goal here is determine time frame start the discussion about those ongoing services then we get to the B word the budget So do you have a ballpark budget for this project if it's a low budget? Can we simplify things nothing wrong with working with a client that has a low budget if it's a reasonable scope for the money? Maybe we can phase things in What's the decision-making process and you actually deciding who's gonna build your website? When do you expect to make the final decision? You're trying to figure out here in my wasting time with this person or not? most Web developers that I've worked with or talked with Struggle talking about money with the client does that sound familiar and we kind of avoid it You got to start getting comfortable with talking about money with the client.  We love what we do, but we do what we do to make money, right? I mean ultimately got to put food on the table So make sure you're not wasting money with the client get into the budget conversation All right, we have successfully passed the S in scope everybody's still with me That was like the fire hose of questions, which I'm gonna give you on the one pager But you see how this is structured, right? We're gonna ask a whole bunch of questions about the scope now We're gonna get into the intangible part of chemistry Is this a client I can actually work with now the C is second because The most of your conversation with the client is going to be had Through the S through the scope fleshing out what this website is supposed to be and do and by the end of that Conversation which probably will take 45 to 50 minutes of the hour that you'll spend with the client You'll have you should have a good feeling of is this a person I can work with or not does that make sense? So we've kind of worked through the process now. We're just kind of making a call Do I have chemistry with this person or not? And if I do great, let's keep on going if I don't nice to meet you. We'll talk someday Right, or you know, maybe you have the business card of a web developer in your area that you don't like that You hand to that client. No, I would never do that probably not but I would never do that. So here's just a couple of suggestions when you get to chemistry listen Listen as you're asking those scope questions ask a question and then shut up and listen to what the client says But not only what the client says, but how they say it Watch for red flags because by the end of that scope phase you want to have a good feeling whether you know Whether this is a good person or not Here's a couple common red flags I see a lot of times with clients. The first is unanswered questions We talked about this a little bit earlier, but you know the client doesn't know what they need This is a red flag and again that discovery phase is a really great first step for a lot of clients Just unanswered questions are not necessarily bad But gosh if you're trying to build a website and there's a huge question mark over what this whole thing is going to be and do Then the chance of that client I've been waiting to say this taking a left turn at Albuquerque in the middle of the project is high How about this one disrespectful us if the client is a jerk When you're talking to them This person is on a first date Think about that You're getting the best version of the client in this conversation that you'll ever get Seriously if the client is a jerk in the initial consultation If they don't listen if they interrupt if they won't answer your questions if they start nickel and diming you already red flag If there are scheduling problems if the client reschedules that initial call or meeting two or three times That that habit does not change throughout the project That client will become what I call the invisible man who disappears halfway through the project and reappears six months later with Unreasonable demands to get that project accomplished at a certain time frame. So again, you know, there are legitimate reasons for Scheduling issues sure, but just it's a red flag. Watch it complaining if the client had a previous web developer who did everything wrong You want to dig into that like big-time? Because chances are it's not the client now There are some knucklehead web developers out there and maybe you guys have gotten rescue work from developers who evaporated and did stupid things Whatever it is about our profession it draws those kinds of people in but If the client is constantly complaining about this mysterious web developer who did everything wrong It's also very likely that if you take this project in six months That client is going to be sitting across from someone else at a coffee shop telling them how terrible you were Because some people just can't be satisfied dig into that Emergencies the client needs everything immediately Or there's lots of drama If everything the client says has an explanation explanation point behind it Careful with that one Again, there couldn't be legitimate reasons for emergencies But it's a red flag And here's a couple of frequent mistakes I see people making in context of identifying these red flags in the chemistry section the first is what I call running a red light and that is thinking that that red flag is no big deal or Making excuses for the client you have to do that in the back of your mind Oh, I realize this is kind of weird But we make our own excuses for why the client might be doing this or whatever and because we really we want to sell a Website and make things work, but if you take a bad client if you take a bad client You'll never you'll never Doesn't matter how much money that you make from this client You will always spend more in emotional capital in dealing with a bad client always So red flags or icebergs in this conversation you only see the tip there's a whole lot more beneath the surface So don't run a red light. Don't disregard the red flags. The second is what I call the hero syndrome I'm fleshing this out. This will eventually be a talk, but I'm not gonna ask for a show of hands but there are probably people in this room who understand what I say that you have the perpetual need to fix the client and This is usually not confined just to the business part of your world. You have a need to fix people and If you try to run your business that way you'll never have a successful business You just can't do it. There's no way. It's sort of a client codependency. Ultimately, it will wreck your business So be aware of the hero syndrome Okay, so we've gotten through scope We've gotten through chemistry the client gets a thumbs up. This is the person I think I can work with now we get to the O in scope, which is the ongoing services This is the part of the conversation where we explain the importance of our ongoing services when you're selling website management Services education is the key You will not be able to survive long term as a freelance web developer or WordPress business owner If you do not have some component of your business wrapped up in recurring revenue You just can't do it if you're trying to live by selling websites It'll work for a while, but you'll peter out matter of fact I'm just about convinced that many of these disappearing web developers We hear a lot about are good well-meaning people who tried to build their business just selling websites And they couldn't do it so now they're working for somebody else and their clients are on the hook Because they can't find their web developer. They've gone and got a job a real job somewhere real job Freelance web developers are people who are willing to work 60 hours a week to avoid having to work 40 And if that's your heart and passion, you are my kind of person Okay So you're not asking for commitment yet. You're simply explaining. Hey WordPress is awesome However, it has to be taken care of it's got to be managed just has to So and I always tell people look we provide you training on how to do it yourself. We provide a white glove service Okay Ongoing services have to be discussed in that first conversation. I promise you if you have trouble selling recurring services If you move that discussion to the very first conversation, I promise you'll convert more clients Okay, P the process Set expectations with the client by walking through your process And I mentioned this earlier because I think it's critical for every freelance web developer to have a consistent Process that they use for every client every project every time I've got another talk on this there's information about that on my website, but You got to have a consistent process if you get consistent with a consistent theme and plug-in stack with a way that method That you work every project you will become more efficient more effective and more profitable It just will happen So you got to get this process and yeah every client every project every time so talk it through with the client This is the way I build websites explain the steps that are involved explain the tools that you use Set expectations early So I explained to the client. I've got a friend in Atlanta. I use this phrase that every word can't talk I do because it's just I mean Genius this is one of those guys that you're talking to him and he just says something and you're like boom That's like Mike drop, you know, this is and he's like what I just say and he's one of these guys that just you know Spews that kind of incredible wisdom and he made a statement to me a couple years ago He said, you know, we've moved our process around so that we don't do any code before content No code before content. It's beautiful Think about it if you could start to build a website and you had all the assets a hundred percent at the beginning How quickly could you build that website? But instead what do we do it's six months later, and we're still waiting on the dad gum group picture of the employees in the business, right? Or we're waiting on the text for the about page still three months later No code before content. So our process is look when you sign our contract You're gonna get back from us a document and that's gonna be your to-do list for all the content of the website We don't move another inch Until all of that content and assets is completely delivered When we do that then we give you a design then we build a site out then we launch it and we get client input at every point But this is the way we build sites so the expectations are set early make sense Scope chemistry ongoing services. We're talking through our process and how we do things now comes the secret sauce the estimate How many of you give an estimate to the client at that first Conversation or do you wait and surprise them with that number in a proposal later? For years it was the surprise number in the proposal hoping that the client and I were magically in the same wavelength of what this price ought to be So here's what I do. I Give a ballpark estimate at the end of every client consultation By this point you want to know you want to have a feeling in your bones about roughly what a site like this should cost And so I end the conversation with something like this Mr. Client Mrs. Client based on what we've said this project feels like about a five to six thousand dollar project If I come back to you with a proposal in that price range, are you ready to start so at that first time at this first Conversation before I ever write the proposal. I'm gonna get a buy-in from the client on about a thousand dollar range and Proposals contain no surprises.  Was that 10 minutes until I'm at we're like next session Okay All right, so I have 10 more minutes to talk and then we have 10 more minutes after that. Okay, so we have time for questions That's great. So getting client buy-in Starts with a question something like this and if they say no, I'm not ready to start I need to dig into why do you have to get three more bids? You know Are you looking for a $2,000 website not a $6,000 website, you know, we need to have that conversation now right If you do that, this is what I did 90% of my proposals last year that I wrote were closed and the 10% that didn't are just on hold Hopefully they'll materialize this year So that is the scope strategy We have eight minutes or so for questions. So Here's my website Nathaningroom.com slash WCA BQ That page has All the slides it has the one pager of all the questions from the scope process on there Which you can use as is or refine it to your business You can find me always at training.i-themes.com two or three times a week We do webinars there and let's do that table talk. So questions right here Are you also estimating the maintenance the ongoing maintenance? Great. Okay, so I tell so the question wise for the video Do does the ballpark estimate also include the cost of maintenance and yeah I always when I give them when I'm on the O and I'm talking about ongoing services Typically for us a maintenance client for a typical non e-commerce No members logging in basic websites about a hundred bucks a month and so I tell them that Yeah, this this feels like a five to six thousand dollar project, you know, also the maintenance costs. We've talked about that already. Yeah, good question. Yes It can depends on how you're structured Okay, so let's so the question is doesn't maintenance work eat into your time as a developer So you got to define what's included in maintenance work For us the basic package is going to be hosting on our server It's gonna be a daily WordPress backup weekly WordPress plugin updates and a security plug-in installed and monitored about hundred dollars a month That's no content changes no content edits if they want content edits. We do that a couple of different ways But that's more money You know so at that point, you know if you're small you're servicing 20 or 30 clients You're not gonna hear from most of your clients every month first of all But as you start to grow bigger you've got that recurring revenue piece in you can afford to hire somebody to come in and do some basic client maintenance for you That does answer your question It is questions Really? Right that in the back So I'm not sure I understand the question. Oh, okay Yeah, why should okay, so the question is how can a freelance web developer? I'm gonna paraphrase your question. How can a freelance web developer survive in the world of wicks and Squarespace? Is that your question?  You need to look at what they're doing today Go look go talk to Mendel go daddy's doing some pretty cool stuff these days Okay, so the wicks and Squarespace question how many of you run up against that or you're worried about it yourself Okay Lot of people I mean whenever I talk to a group lot of this is a big worry. So here's the answer Have you ever so if you're if you're watching a commercial and you know wicks has this beautiful commercial and these beautiful websites? People are building on wicks. Have you ever seen one really? Like that a per actual person has built themselves It's pretty horrible it really is pretty horrible and It's like okay, you know I could go to Home Depot and like buy a kitchen tile and do it myself Or I could hire a professional because if I do it myself Like there's gonna be some that are like off and like smeared caulk everywhere.  So the difference is We're at word camp. I love WordPress Everything in my business is about WordPress But WordPress is just one tool that I've used over the last 25 years to build websites I'm in the business not of building WordPress websites I'm in the business of helping clients communicate effectively to their constituency on the web in such a way that it creates conversion for them WordPress today, I think it's the very best tool to do that if you want to use wicks or Squarespace That's fine find somebody else. But if you try to build a wicks or Squarespace site You're not gonna get the same kind of results You're gonna get from having a professional web developer who understands the how these things work build the site for you also SEO on wicks sucks It's like awful right there Coating as well as What means you decide that WordPress was the best way to go and did you find that your experience in coding Great question. Okay, so for the video the question is how did I make the move from just building straight-up websites into WordPress and Did understanding having a background help in WordPress first of all? I would never call myself a coder. I know enough PHP for self-defense I hire the coding piece out. I think it's really complicated So did it help absolutely because I mean you got a new HTML and CSS to just build web I mean no matter what you're using the reason I moved to WordPress is that more and more of my clients wanted to be able To log in and make small changes themselves I've got a great story about that I can tell I just want time now But it I had to make a continental shift in the way my business was structured from a few clients with large retainers How I mean to make all the edits into more clients with smaller retainers, which is a much better way to do things Trust super important Great question and for the video the question was about Regional differences and how you deal with clients and maybe it does take time to talk about the weather You know to build chemistry you know your region, you know your area I think in the big picture what you're trying to do is not waste a ton of time So make you know if in your world it does take you know half hour 45 minutes to build that chemistry Before you get in maybe your client consultations are two hours instead of one hour But I would still put limits around them because otherwise there are certain clients who will talk your ear off and never give you a dime It's a great question Two minutes one more question anybody right here In two minutes really okay, so the question is how do you do with pricing so?  I get better over time. There is no secret formula to pricing What you you know what I would tell you to do is just ask people what they're charging for websites Ask people you know other freelancers people you mean to meet up ask them what they're charging, you know the other thing is look Generally speaking there are three price ranges at any market. There's the college kid who can do it for you know low money There's the agency who's going to be 10 grand plus to walk in the door And you can usually find a really nice happy medium in the middle somewhere to price your work That's a great question more more of an answer that I have time for at the moment. Let's talk after Okay, I think we're done find me on Nathan in your comm and training dot I things calm. Thanks very much


This is Senate Judiciary Thursday, September 24, 2020, again, meeting remotely. Today is S24, a courthouse named for Judge Francis McCaffrey, and we've all had a great deal of respect for, but evidently the courthouse was named in a prior bill. S24 became a vehicle for corrections, racial equity bill, and we're looking at that as the committee with the responsibility for corrections policy. I want to start out though this morning by thanking Peggy Delaney, particularly from the Legislative Council staff, our committee assistant, who is in charge of all the committee assistants, and has done just a terrific job of organizing throughout this pandemic. We started in mid-March, meeting remotely, and I think it would not have been possible to even begin to think about meeting without her and other members of that team, particularly Mike Farron. A special thanks, Peggy, to you and to Mike Farron and all the members of your team for all the help in getting us through this. Really do appreciate it, and I hope you have a good rest of the fall, and we'll be back and raring to go, hopefully in person in January, but time will tell. Thank you, Senator Sears, and it's, again, I'll say it again, it's my honor and privilege. Thank you. We're going to start out. Senator Sears? Yes. I don't know if it's my computer or not, but you are very, very scratchy. Well, unfortunately, I'm outside, and that might be why. Okay. I'm going to try to turn off my, I will turn off my audio and turn it over to Jim Baker. Now, Dick, for some reason. All right. Okay. Maybe it's this thing. I think, I think that's what it is actually. How's that? Right. All right. Why don't we start with Jim Baker, who has an appointment at 1030 and then we'll kind of move along to others. Good morning, folks. Thank you, Senator Sears. For the record, I'm Jim Baker, the Interim Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Corrections. And I'm here to talk about the Department of Corrections racial equity and bias plan report. First, I want to say that we fully support the work that was done in house corrections and institutions. In fact, I'm sure representative Evans and Shaw will tell you that we work very closely with them on this language. From where I said, I talked to this committee and other committees in the legislature about where I see us as an organization and the work that we need to do, and equity is a huge part of that. For me, it's just not equity about our inmate population or those we supervise in the community. It's also equity for our employees. And with a heavy emphasis on the way we hire, train, promote and create the environment amongst the workforce that we think is the most effective way for us to carry out our mission. So I really don't have a whole bunch to add to we support this language. We were part of creating the language. And we see an opportunity here for us to generate a document that will be a blueprint for us that fits into the bigger conversation about equity in the state, but really holds in on areas where we can do work that create a more impartial system of corrections in the state of Vermont. So that's what I have to say about about the language in the legislation. Okay. I've Senator White. I'm sure I applaud your efforts for going forward with this, but I guess my question is, why would you think you need legislation in order to do this because we have an office of racial equity and executive directors who's on a Davis has been charged with looking at systemic racism throughout the throughout the state. And so I'm curious why you think you need legislation to do this. Because I think it makes a bold statement to the Department of Corrections about the importance of this. I can say it. But I'm commissioners, and maybe even in my case even more commissioners are only here for a short period of time, Senator. We're talking about a radical cultural change inside corrections. This is just one small piece of that. And I think I'm normally not a big supporter of legislative reports as some of you may know from my history of being around the legislature. But I think in this case, it forces corrections to take a serious internal look at its operation and create a document that goes, it's not something we're competing with Director Davis, it goes hand in hand with the work that she's doing. But it's, it's very specific to corrections and forces us to take a serious look internally. Now I'm serious about it, but I've got 1100 employees, and some of them may not be serious about it. So this to me is a bold statement about. I've taken a look at this directed from oversight committees from the legislature. And that's that's the reason why when Representative and spoke to me about this that I was supportive. Senator Benning. So commissioner, I want to. First, I'm still scratching my head as to how you're an interim and still here. But not only as a member of this committee, but as a member of institutions, I know you've been placed under a tremendous amount of pressure from the get go. And we may not have the opportunity to express publicly our appreciation. Thank you for your work today. Your words are reminding me of a bill that we worked on yesterday and I hope that there is a an attitude amongst law enforcement that will eventually come around to the position you've just expressed. To say personally, I think you've done a heck of a great job with the corrections department in the time that you've had to work with. And hopefully whoever your replacement ends up being should you ever decide you're not becoming interim anymore. There's a job opening apparently after your internship is over. I do want to say I appreciate the work you've done throughout the past few months it's been one heck of a ride and to watch you do that has been very interesting and informative so thanks. I appreciate those kind words. What I will tell you is that there are a lot of folks in inside corrections that were waiting for an opportunity to let the rains get down be taken down and let them do their work. It's happening right now. And this this equity piece is an example of this people inside corrections were waiting for the opportunity to be able to have this conversation. And I'm just allowing that conversation that's my role. What I will tell you the same thing I told us I do a statewide teleconference every Wednesday afternoon anybody in the department can get on. It's an open questions directed at me I usually give them. A little bit of a, an overview of what's going on in the department every week. Yesterday we spent time talking about justice Ginsburg and the impact of leadership and how that can impact corrections. I only tell you that because it ties directly in that. And the legacy that justice Ginsburg left behind around gender. And so I appreciate those kind words but this is what I told staff yesterday. I want to tell Secretary Smith that I'm here as long as he needs me and as long as my health holds up. I think every member of this committee would echo Senator Benning's remarks of our appreciation for the job you've done in probably the most difficult challenging times in the years. And dealing with a pandemic and what we've seen nationally in prisons particularly. And the results in Vermont prisons of the COVID. Unfortunately, we saw the national trend with our offenders that are out in Mississippi. But I also want to thank you Jim for all the work you've done and the professionalism that you approach this job. And I will tell you that you've been there longer than many commissioners. I don't know. I don't know that's good or bad or I'm just, I'm just, I don't know either right. I remember when, when I first started and you remember may remember this commissioner I think was when you first started in the state. He immediately announced a Dix knowing that he needed a helicopter to visit all the correctional facilities I think you got fired within a week of this. Well, I haven't asked for a helicopter center so I guess I'm okay. And I appreciate all your kind words. Yeah, you know, I just think public service is important and that's why I do what I do. And I appreciate these kind words. Have you had an opportunity, Senator ashes proposed. It's posted on our website. And it, it talks about working with the commissioner corrections working with the executive director racial equity, equity on a strategy and long term plan to address systematic racism bias and inclusion in the department correct. Yes, rather than having the department doing it. As I think and I don't know if that was the intent. Senator Ash went and redrafted the house version. So I don't know if you have any comments on Senator ashes version. I really don't. I think if I read it right and what I'm hearing you say is senator ashes and was to make sure that we were working in concert with director Davis. And we are. And I think she would, she I know she's on. I've had a couple conversations where I know other staff members talked to her. And our work. I see aligning with the work that she is tasked with doing and she's doing. So I don't. What I would not want is for us to get away from following the intent in the plan that's in the language that house corrections institution put forward, because I'll say the same thing again that that I said in response to the white's question. A bold statement helps me in a leadership role to carry on this work inside corrections. And we are, we are now really starting to get into the data collection to understand who we have system, and how we're nowhere near where we need to be. But, you know, I'll give an example of this the data showed in the month of July that two of the 13 individuals who are transgendered in our system were put in segregation. And without that kind of data you don't see that. And so when you have 13 individuals in a protected class in two of them end up in segregation. I have saying that's enough to put your coffee cup down and ask why. So what what I'm, what what I'm saying is I would not want us to move away from us focusing directly on corrections, but working in concert with with director Davis. Senator Sears. Yes. The reason I asked that question commissioner is because we have the legislation has permanently charged the executive director of the racial equity to, and that office to look at systemic racism across state government and the behind that is the force of the governor, and all of the governor staff which means all the commissioners and all the secretaries so it is a statement in itself saying this is really important and the legislature has said it's important and the governor has said it's important and what I fear is that every. We, if we go down this path, every agency or every office or every division or every department will come to the legislature and say, we need legislation in order to look at this in our agency because our agency is somehow special. So what I don't know how many agencies departments and offices and divisions we have, but I would hate to see us try to write legislation around each of those to try to put the, the force of legislation behind it when I think we already have done that through the, through creating the office and the panel and by, and the governor by implementing that office and hiring Miss Davis so that that's my fear is that I think that we could go down this path next year with every other agency and every other department and every division and every office. So that's my fear. I, I, I appreciate that and I hear what you're saying Senator. You know, I guess my only, my only comment on this is that, you know, I guess every commissioner thinks their agency is special I don't think that way. But I know that we have a very direct impact on the lives of individuals and their ability to live lives that, you know, and we have the ability and I just gave the example. We have the ability to interrupt people's lives in a way that a lot of other agencies don't. All I'm trying to do in part of my conversation was with Representative Emmons and Representative Shaw, and then with their committee was to make sure that people know that corrections has taken this seriously. We were working on it anyway, but this just gives us some clarity and guidance to us on what, what we need to do to report back to the legislature. So I appreciate you. Yeah, I, I want to just suggest that I do agree that it's helpful to have this in statute so it's a slight disagreement with Senator White. The reason being, this is the, if not the largest group of state employees. Next to largest group of state employees work for the Department of Corrections. And we also have a lot of contractors and volunteers who work for the Department of Corrections. I see this as somewhat different, but I thought what was lacking in the bill that came over and I agree with Senator Rash that we need to involve the director of racial equity into this process. And so I, you know, I do think I do applaud the house and Jim I don't know who went first, but for raising this issue and putting it on to the cap. So I'm a little bit at odds here on this one, but I do see corrections as somewhat of a unique office of state government in that they have so many employees and they have up to 6000 people under their supervision who have to do what they're, we hope they do what they're told to do and what they're being told to do is done without prejudice. I, so I think I find that unique to perhaps the agency and natural resources, which also could use help in making sure that they respond in a diverse way but I think about the number of people under corrections control. I hate to disagree with my good friend from when from the other side of the mountain. I think we've had many disagreements in the past and probably continue to but I and I just I just do want to acknowledge that corrections is in a slightly different situation but there are other agencies in the state that also have a huge impact on people's lives. All of the, the Department of Mental Health, the Department of Health, Diva, anybody that deals with any economic services issues. If that if we see systemic racism in those areas, it does have a huge impact on the lives of the people that they serve. So, while corrections does have people. A lot of people that are in their control. The other agencies also have make a huge impact on people's lives, but I'm not going to. If we want this in legislation, and I hope that this is in session law not in the green books. Good session, but Becky Wasserman can help us with that. Are there any, are there any other questions for Commissioner Baker before we ask to leave us. And I believe Heather Simmons is here and will be available. She is going to, she is here Senator and she'll be able to follow up. And Heather does have the point inside corrections on the discussion and the work around equity.  For good reason probably. Oh, gosh. Back to the agenda. I'm sorry, folks. Rebecca Wasserman was scheduled next, but I think maybe given the conversation I'm going to jump the representative Emmons and if she wants representative Shaw, the vice chair of the House Committee on corrections and institutions. Great. Thank you Senator for the record my name is representative Alice Evans chair of the House corrections and institutions, and I have with me, as you stated the vice chair representative Shaw. And so I think together we can sort of give you our thoughts and maybe quickly walk you through the language. We starting last January, which was a long time ago. We spent quite a bit of time with DOC, particularly with Heather Simons as well as with Commissioner Baker, as a result of what was reported in the Chittenden Correctional Facility, and the issues there. It really came to light that there's some real culture issues within DOC that need to be addressed and the current commissioners is doing the work to do that. When we started talking over the summer on the whole wreck racial equity and social equity issue. A lot of folks do not look at Department of Corrections Department of Corrections, and people don't focus on it the public doesn't really focus on it until a big issue comes up, and then everybody's saying why did they do this. The thing in the, the concern was that, at any point in time we have anywhere from 8 to 10,000 Vermonters under the custody of the Department of Corrections, and of those it ranges anywhere from 1600 to 1800 folks who are physically incarcerated, and their movement movements are We also have folks out in the community who are supervised by our field service offices. And in testimony, we really want to make sure that that we really work with the commissioner and changing the culture within DOC the culture of employee to employee relationships. The employee to offender relationships offender to offender and offender to staff. And this is what the language attempts to address. It doesn't point fingers at anyone. And we start out with a finding section to be really clear what is in current statute is that the Department of Corrections is not a law enforcement entity it is structurally within the agency of human services for a reason. The Department of Corrections is within their Department of Public Safety, and we in Vermont years ago made the decision that DOC should be within the agency of human services, because it's part of people's lives. So the first part of the finding is that and we cited the statute 28 vs a section one which is for the rehabilitative correctional programming. And we stated as well that it's to render treatment to offenders with the goal of achieving their successful return and participation as citizens to the state, and to foster the human dignity. The second finding it to me, and I think to our committee was really important because director assignments actually said this. And we thought it was really important to put these words down in our findings that DOC does not serve as a law enforcement. That's what we put in, but she said, but does play an important role in implementing the duty of an individual sentence and ability for the successful return to and participation in the community. That is DOC's role. And we felt that was very important to highlight those words. And as part of that we feel that part of their role is to provide security and ensure racial and social justice to the employees and to the folks who are under the custody. And then the intent is that we would start addressing the systemic racism and bias to achieve racial and social equity with the employees, as well as with the offenders. And we're talking folks who are incarcerated and folks who are out in the field under supervision of our field service offices. And we're also looking at trying to look at the recruiting and training and retention of a diverse and highly quality workforce. And the commissioner is really working now to start working in the training and recruitment of correctional officers and staff. And we want to give support to that. And then we've asked for a plan to come back. And we've laid out what some of the scope of that plan is that it would address some of the department's employment practices and supervision of the folks under their custody. And they need to include a timeline and a process for that. And they need to evaluate the hiring practices the training the supervision and competency standards to inform the performance evaluations and promotions of employees, and identify the resources and funding that would be needed, and also to identify a list of stakeholders, because we want to make sure this is inclusive. It's inclusive of the stakeholders. And we had testimony from director Davis, we reached out to David the more we had the SCA and we had director Simons and we've been reaching out and we would have done more if we'd had the time but we want to make sure that the stakeholders are at the table. And then we're asking for report back to our committee and your committee by the 15th of January, because we need to do a lot more work on this. So this plan would be a work in progress so that we continue doing deeper work in the next session. So that's what the language before you does. And I don't know if Representative Shaw would like to speak in. He was the reporter of the bill. Representative Shaw, if you'd like to. Thank you, Senator and members of the committee for having us in today. I think chair I'm into the marvelous job of reporting out what is in the bill, like giving my personal observation just a little bit. Why I got excited about this bill s 338 was the start of a really good move into doing better within our corrections department in our corrections population. As we talked along s 338, we set up a series of reports in that bill to report back to the General Assembly. However, after s 338 went out and listening and I got really interested in Commissioner Baker's interest in doing a better job of hiring and training the people within the Department of Corrections and then he set up the office within DLC. And as we know and Heather is Heather Simons and is now the director of that. And to back up the chair's testimony we've had Heather in a lot but when she came in after she was appointed the director of the professional standards office. She really began to talk to us about the people recruiting training and retention of folks within corrections. And that is that is a big deal. We all know that corrections is short employees. So, training the right people to be members of their team is important. And not all involves into why we're why I'm here today is to talk about why we need this bill. I've heard from set from Heather about employee, not only employee versus in me. Incidences with not being racially equitable and so forth. We also heard about employee versus employee. We don't think about that very much in in our world. We think everybody's okay. And we also heard about prisoner versus prisoner and prisoner versus employee. So it's a systemic issue throughout corrections. And again to back up Germans, these folks that are incarcerated are certainly invulnerable because they're locked up. They're a little different animal than being on the street. However, we've also heard reports of the latest down in the battle for area of a employee taking advantage of a person under his control when they're under supervision and not locked up. So this is a serious issue for me, me personally and for the committee that we really take a kind of a dive into what's going on and it's important to understand that we may not have scooped in corrections and some of the work that we've done in other bills throughout this session, because they are not law enforcement. They're not classified as law enforcement their employees of the State Department of Human Services so that that is a little different. The language back to certainly go over the language with you but I think what this bill does is kicks off a concrete plan for corrections to take a deep look at themselves with the help of Susan Davis and her team in the administration and with the help of DLC working in concert with them to get back to us and tell us how they can do better or how they think they can do better, or if they can help us understand how we can help them do better and there is a section in the report that asked them to tell us what do you need for resources. We don't want to just pile more on the DLC and let them try to do this work within your existing resources and it's important for us to help them do this so I guess that's my excuse me. Okay, that's that that's my spiel and thank you for listening. Thank you much. Senator White. So I seem to be. It's a good thing the end of the session is coming up because I seem to be a little testy. Lately, as my committee members will tell you but what you both said and what I when I read this and when I listen to it, most of it is aimed at the, the people in the system, the staff, the prisoners, the, the relationships between them and how we do that I would hope that and I'm sure Susanna will do this but I would hope that we are not just looking at the the people and how we respond and how we train them because systemic racism comes from systems that are put in place that impact people and surely there are and I have to admit that I don't have any idea what those systems are that might be impacting but they might be systems of how we allow worship services or they might be systems of in the field how we do that. I don't know what those systems are, but what I'm saying is that this bill seems to be focused mainly on the personnel and on the interrelationships between people who are part of the system in any way, and I would, I am I know Susanna is on the call with us here and so I'm appealing to her to go in this study and in this work go way beyond just those personnel's but look at the, the potential systems that cause discrimination here both around social injustice and socioeconomic injustice and what our systems are and and come up with some solutions to that so thank you. Can I respond to that. In terms of the language just give me 20 seconds to Peggy. Would you send Senator Asher zoom link to this meeting. Thank you. Go ahead. And so I really appreciate was that we talked about that in the committee and we talked about that with with the folks who are testifying and particularly with do see their systems are in their directives and their policies. And we address this in the plan that they would develop a strategy and a long term plan to address systemic racism bias diversity and inclusion and do see in the scope of that plan would address employment practices and supervision of persons under the custody of the commissioner and state facilities and in the community supervision of persons. And so the committee does that through their directives and policies. And that's where you need to do that really deep dive in terms of the equity issue and the systemic issues of racism is in their directives and policies, and that is in that is going to be a year or two to really work through that because a lot of those directives are really outdated. Number one, and a lot of them. You do not look at them through the lens of racial equity. And that's what we're asking them to do. That's where your systems that's where you change your systemic racism within do see is through their directives and policies. And what I would like to do is if possible is here from was on a Davis. And then Senator Ash was joined us. Thank you, Senator. All right, yes, everyone. Good morning. I've been listening to this conversation with deep appreciation for all the fault that you all are putting into this. And just wanted to very briefly address a few of the remarks that I've heard so far. The point that Senator white made that this work is already rolled into my, my mandate as dictated in act nine of 2018 that is correct. And certainly us passing this law would be saying Susanna do your job. But it would be saying do it a little bit faster because this particular bill does put a deadline for the presentation of this plan that deadline would be January 15 of 2021. So, being that this is already part of my work for all the agencies effectively what this bill does is tells me to prioritize doc and do that one first so that it's ready in time for January. So, I just want to draw a point about our mention of my team. I just have to say there is no team you're looking at it. So, which is exactly the reason that this plan doesn't already exist for this agency and for a number of other agencies because it is slow work when it is one person doing the work. So, I do just want to acknowledge that yes, this is going to happen. This is part of my work and it's something that would be done, whether or not this legislation were to come into play. This particular bill does put that time limit on it so it accelerates the process for doc as opposed to other agencies. But I hope that there's some comfort to you all in knowing that whether this bill moves or not that work is going to happen. It's happening slower than we all would have liked just due to staffing limitations. But it's absolutely a big focus and I appreciate Senator White's point about looking at systems, not just the individuals in systems. Oftentimes, I think we we tend to say, well, what are you going to do is inequity but it's in the system and the system is invisible and amorphous so and, and I think she's absolutely right we are we are those systems and so being able to pinpoint where the inequities arise, whether it's due to the actions of individual actors, or due to the policies that we may have that are antiquated I think rep Emmons mentioned that a lot of these policies and directives are quite old and so modernizing is going to require us to add that racial equity lens into our analysis. So all of that said, I suppose the real summary of my remarks is. I'm comfortable with this bill. If it doesn't pass that's okay to because it's going to happen one way or another. This sort of just fast track doc ahead of other agencies in this work. I have enjoyed working with Heather I've enjoyed working with the acting commissioner and will continue to do so. Moving forward. Thank you all for for the time. Thank you very much. Thank you for all you're doing and by the way, we're hopeful that as a result of our appropriations work, you will have at least one other member of your team. So that you can actually call it a team. You do need help. I am, I always, you know, scratch my head when I see all the duties were giving to you and then I say to myself, but she's only one person. Senator Ash has joined us and I appreciate that he's been embroiled in puff negotiations with the other body over the budget. Did you want a few, a few remarks about your amendment, Senator Ash. Thank you. My amendment, I feel like effectively mirrors what Susana just said, which is that we established very clearly the position of executive director of racial equity within the executive branch to be the overseer and manager and coordinator of all efforts, whether it be on data collection training systems. And obviously that requires working in tandem with all the other departments of state government including HR. And it is important to me that if we if we created that position with that intent, which partially was because we wanted expertise, and not to have departments policing themselves if you will, around these kinds of policies because they will have their own inherent organizational biases about how they do business we wanted someone else with a more dispassionate new overseeing and managing all that. If we truly want to honor the intent of act nine when we passed it, then the executive director position must ultimately be either in a position of doing the work solely with her team, or approving proposals that come from the departments themselves. And I feel like the amendment I propose is consistent with what the house was trying to achieve, but does it in a way that doesn't actually undermine the spirit in which act nine was passed. And so, I, and I also I will also add I took out one paragraph in the findings about human services element to some of the positions. Because that's not an important consideration and in fact the Urban Institute grant down itself east is focused largely on such a concept, but it didn't really relate to the rest of the proposal that came over from the house. And so I felt like that might actually confuse matters and so I did want to mention that the language I present takes that finding paragraph out about human services component of the job. Thank you for joining us on short notice is there any questions for Senator Asher was on Davis about this proposal. Just like to suggest that Senator as get back to getting to the house and clean up that budget so we can get out of town tomorrow. You can count on me for trying to reduce the number of things going in the budget. I have some things for you do you want to put them in. I want to get them to me quickly. It's been very hard, you know, I'll tell you this has been very hard because emails are flying. Unlike a normal proposal with a series of, you know, discrete elements but all on one page. We spent 50% of the time trying to figure out if we're all looking at the same thing. And it's been hard. So, our, our three of the committee members just had the experience of doing a remote conference committee on us 54 we we share your pain we sympathize with you. I also will know a difficult experience. I'll also note that although this is my first conference committee on the budget. It's the legislative ability to create a sense of equal proportion to differences. You know compared to normal years. There's actually so much agreement between House and Senate and the budget proposal. And yet, we're able to create more sense of difference just whatever. But anyways, it's been very rich experience. Great. Well, thank you. Thanks. Appreciate it. I'm just curious if, if obviously, you don't have time to have a conference committee on this 24. Is there a path forward for us to pass Senator ashes amendment are the things that maybe highlighting the differences. Senator, are you ready for any kind of a. I would personally concur with further proposal of concur by adopting Senator ashes amendment. I'm not sure that that was concur with further amendment. Well, Rebecca Wasserman. Oh, here's here. I think there's a couple of problems with Senator ashes amendment that need to be corrected if we're going to pass it. One being the dates. One date is December 20 something 2021 and another date is for it. So I think you want to comment on that. Sure. So Becky Wasserman legislative council. That was just, I was just noting that when I was sent the proposal from Senator ash the draft said December 15 21 and then the final version was January 15 21 so I took my best guess that the intent was the draft was December 15 2020 and final was January 15 21 and that you weren't waiting out a whole year for that. So, right. I just wanted to confirm that that was the committee's intent. Could we see the draft online or someplace. We got it on email last night. We got an email last night it's on our web. House proposal amendment. If you look at our judiciary website. Have that. Okay, well it's it's the it's draft 1.1 s 24 rdw 222 p.m. yesterday. And that's the other amendment, Senator judiciary amendment. Is that what you're talking about that's on the website as well. No, this one is I just mentioned that. Yeah. I have have that one looking for Senator ashes amendment. Well that is Senator ashes it's committee on judiciary. To the honorable Senate. Strike all amendment. On your committee page it's right underneath the house is strike all to s 24. Okay, thank you. I don't know if I have screen sharing ability, but I can bring it up if that would be helpful. Would you like it on screen. I think I'll have it here in a minute. Okay. Okay, I have it now. Thank you. Okay. So it contains findings contains. I think it's absolutely crucial that the director of racial equity be the, the final. I don't know if the word is arbiter or. That approve any plans because I think. Senator ashes was right. I don't know. I think it's absolutely crucial that the director of racial equity be the. The final. I don't know if the word is arbiter or. No, I don't know if it's appropriate to use any of the plans because I think Senator ashes was right when he said that. Department's themselves when they look at their. Their policies and procedures are looking at them with. Non-objective eyes. And so I think that. That it is up to the executive director to. objective view and adoption of any policies and changes okay I I don't know how this all gets done by tomorrow by the way I don't see how it does I guess we could suspend the rules today and take it up I don't know if we do it right a matter I dick yes bill couldn't you also tomorrow if if people were in agreement on it couldn't you do everything tomorrow bring it off the notice calendar bring it up and take it off through all stages of passage yeah except that a house would have to concur as we're changing the house bill but if we messaged immediately I'm when do you guys meet tomorrow or you don't meet tomorrow a house are you talking about that we're meeting the house meets at 10 tomorrow all day and we don't meet no three this afternoon one path forward might be if I could get my committee together quickly today to see the language because they have not seen this I don't this is a total rewrite this is basically a strike all yeah bill and if they may want to weigh in on this and have some suggestions and I could get our committee together today well we go on the floor at one o'clock so we'd probably be voting on it if I can get it taken off the I don't know yeah I don't know I mean my committee may not agree to it or they may have some suggest well but here's the problem right um if your committee doesn't agree to it that dies problem unless we agree with your right or we could suggest some other language you know language working in both our version and and the strike all I think the main content if I might change and was on or or Becky is that we put this version puts the director of racial executive director of racial equity where the report goes to rather than the department doing its own that's right it it changes the sort of flow of the commissioner of corrections has to submit the plan for approval to the executive director of racial equity and then she submits it to the legislature and it also changes the findings substantially to sort of recognize the role of the executive director of racial equity that was created a few years ago Heather or Zana do you have any comments on this morning Heather signs from corrections for the record I I do have a few comments if they're welcome I appreciate this work I certainly appreciate all the effort that's gone into the spirit of it I was comfortable with the original language I still am we've taken a considerable amount of lead as we should from our community stakeholders as well as brown and black leaders it's not lost on us nothing about us without us and it's critical that this this work be done with the people that it affects that with the communities that are leading us I have some concerns around timelines but it certainly isn't going to get in the way with the with the pace of the work that we do or the commitment that we have the original language as well I think to to chair Evans point earlier with regards to where we are at and understanding that the opportunity we have to steer the quality of someone's sentence also includes our recognition of all of you know all of our constituents including our our constituents who we don't hear from which are the children of incarcerated parents and this is a commitment for to the future and the work in terms of training and building equity plans within the department really is a statement around how we're working we can't do one thing without the other we cannot address the workforce and not the population that we serve we can't serve the we can't do the work with the population we serve and the workforce without listening and partnership with the community members and the legislators so to direct the point earlier I appreciated them this work will get done regardless we're already we're already doing it it comes with that it comes with a lot of how do I say it there's a lot of language being used to describe where we're at what we're doing and what the issue is none of this will get done if we don't lean into some words like trust director Davis had said a press conference a few months ago that really and I hope I get it right but it was not lost on me guard down and eyes open so though I have deep appreciation for the complexities around the proposed bill the weight of it the accountability senator whites concerns as well this work move and it must work we must move and and faith and good faith I was comfortable with the language before and I really would like the committee's members to hear that it will get done regardless I hope that's not there's help thank you any questions for either is honor or other thank you senator white thank you I'm sorry to speak so much but if if timing here really is a problem and we run the risk of not doing anything because and understanding from both Heather and Susanna that and commissioner Baker that this is going to go forward anyway with or without this if if we can't go forward with a piece of legislation although having it in session law maybe gives it more in my committee and I know that you probably don't want to hear this but in my committee when we when there are issues that we think are important but that don't necessarily have to have legislative home behind them we've been known on a number of occasions to as a committee write a letter to the affected parties and tell them to do this and it has had great impact and things have gotten done because you have a legislative committee writing a letter to the commissioner to the executive director of racial equity to the administration and other people saying you have to do this and this is a priority so get it done and putting a lot of the language from whatever would have been the legislation in that letter so I'm just suggesting that if we can't figure out a way to move forward with a piece of legislation that there are alternatives I appreciate that but I think it would think it's important that we keep the three-legged stool alive of what we did with s 124 s 119 or what we're doing with 124 119 and including and then this one I think is important message to the community if we can ask s 24 and figure out a path forward. So anyway that's my view senator. So I just like to go back to some of the things that commissioner Baker said that he feels he needs the force of this bill clear impact for everybody to respect and I think that you don't get that with a letter and I think I think you know is there not a way forward to do the what's matter. You know I need to take a two minute break. I'm very sorry. Why. So is you know isn't there a way to go forward with just and in a much shorter version to put the office of racial equity at the top to have this plan go through them before you know rather than totally redoing the bill to just put that in there somehow and make this plan that the house came forward with work. I mean if there's a couple other statements that need to go in there good but seems to me that you know commissioner Baker has worked very hard on all of this stuff. I'd like to see him get what he needs. So any thoughts on that Rebecca do you see a way that something could be more sure. So I mean one one suggestion would be in subsection C and if it's helpful I can bring it up where the commissioner is developing a strategy and long term plan to have that done either in coordination or consultation with the executive director or done together shall develop together. So that's one area where they would be working together to to do the strategy and long term plan. Right. I think there is sort of another message that's in there that the office of racial equity should approve the plan which is a little bit different than just working together I mean working together and having that office be the ones to approve it and there are also some a couple of good things in the findings that speak to the importance of the office of racial equity and maybe maybe just some of that be put in and then it might be something that the House could accept more quickly than than this whole change. Philip. I just wanted to ask representative Evans if I could if if we pass a version of this that's different than what the House developed and assuming I see Senator Ashes amendment as very very similar to what you all did with a few important changes. So if we go back to Jeanette's earlier sort of early motion that she could support sending Senator Ashes amendment back to you if if you could concur with that. That's obviously the easiest path. Do you are there things there that you think would be deal breakers for. You know as I said I'm not sure because this is so different than what the committee had worked on. I think what Senator Nick is saying might be a path. I think it would be. I don't see it as that different really. What strikes you as radically different from. I think the approval process would have to be vetted with the committee. That would be a different focus and I think we also have to look at employment practices because that's really the key in terms of how people are supervised and what the culture is. And DOC really needs a voice in that as well as the racial equity task force. You know it's just a very different angle and approach and the committee needs to come up to speed with this. I can't respond in terms of how I think they need some time to think it through. And as I said earlier I could get the committee together today for them to take a look at this draft. But I know we're in a time. Well if we and if I might Senator Sears I I I feel as though we we've been put into a situation where we have one it's it's like you volleyed the ball to us. We have one swing of the racket left. And so I think what Jeanette proposed strikes me as as a very equitable compromise with what you gave us one swing at then we're going to adjourn this committee. And if you came back with something different tomorrow we we would realistically have to say we can't do it this session. So I don't know it seems as though maybe you waited one step too long to get it to us for us to be able to have two swings. And that would allow your committee another version. But I could do what Jeanette proposed easily enough. Meaning a letter. Is that what you're speaking? No, no, I'm sorry. Meaning meaning just concurring with further proposal of amendment and having Senator Ashes be the further proposal of amendment. I see. Okay. Could I make a comment, Senator Sears? I think it's okay. So I will because I don't know what he said yes or no. So I think that the main difference if one of the main differences here that meet you that your committee needs to look at Representative Evans is the the approval process. I think that our committee probably feels very strongly about that. The other differences in there I don't see as being major. There are some tweaks. But I don't see them as being very different, except for that. God I muted myself while Walmart was on the phone from my wife's glasses. Those are the emergencies we deal with. I think the best course of action is understanding that for us, the position of executive director of racial equity needs to be the person who the report goes to think that's critical in the so called Asher amendment. Other parts of it were open. So perhaps we could if they're not major changes, we could vote this out today this morning. Have it ready for the calendar for tomorrow whenever it gets taken up. If your committee can meet this afternoon and you could send us changes that don't involve that seems to be the critical point. I'm trying to find it here because I'm not sure who's that is the critical point for us, I would say is that the the draft plan goes to the executive director of racial equity for review and approval. That's the critical point. If there are other tweaks that you'd like to see you could send them to us this afternoon. We could have them sent out to committee members. They can give a thumbs up, thumbs down. And if we need to meet, we could probably hold together a meeting tomorrow morning at some point. But hopefully we don't need to. So we would report on a bill tomorrow. Presumably, so called ash version 1.1 dated 222 dated 923 2222 p.m. And if you have changes to that version, I believe that's the version except with Becky's change of date. Yeah, except with Becky's changes. Yeah. So just be clear that would be the version. Right. So the most important piece of the ash amendment is at the top of page three, see the plan, where do you would submit for approval to the executive director of racial equity is strategy long term plan to address systemic racism, bias, and diversity. That's the most important piece. Yeah, I would say so. But I think we need to keep if we're going to make this happen before the end of the session, need to make any changes. Simple for us to understand. Okay, I don't mean that we're not smart. But no, I know what you're saying. So let me ask representative come out right, Senator, I'm in representative and no, I came I understood. So representative Shaw, do you think we could work through this with today? Well, I'm not sure. Representative Ammons, if how the committee will feel about this, this is a piece of work and to Senator Baruth, we put considerable energy into. And so I'm not sure how the committee is going to react, be honest with you. Well, I think I think it would be worth it to bring it before the committee. And really work with them to understand that there's other issues at play here and other viewpoints. I think that would be important to bring that back to our committee. And see if we can find a path forward so we don't lose the whole piece. Because we do need to really help the commissioner change the culture within DOC. And it's not going to happen overnight. And we need to take the first step to really do that. So I can get the committee. I mean, I think that's a good plan with Senator Sears put out. If you can put out the language.  And then you've got it there for your calendar in the morning. Yeah, again, I would hate to see wholesale changes that make it difficult for us to agree to on the fly because that's the way it's going to have to be. Yeah. So it's is that amenable to the committee? To the Senate Judiciary Committee? There's really not much choice. So not at not at this late date. You know, Representative Emmons did share with me the initial drafts. I did share them with Senator Rash. He did. He and I talked about it. And he went over this and came up with this and but it didn't pass the House until yesterday. Normally, you know, was it was it yesterday or was it Tuesday? Wasn't it Tuesday? Tuesday. Well, Thursday. It was Tuesday. I didn't get referred to up till yesterday. Yeah. And we're we're also dealing with S 119 as well. So I think that's the best we can do. Hopefully we can get a bill through if we can't agree on it, then Senator White's original proposal would be working. Senator Senator White's proposal. What? I just wanted the letter. Okay. Yeah, okay. I'm just that that we could send under the auspices of perhaps the Joint Justice Oversight Committee. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Okay, that's it. But that's a I'm hoping we can find a path to work. I think we can. Senator Representative Schaath. Thank you, Senator. I was wondering if you go to make any changes to the the Ash amendment before you send it over to us. Only if you want them. Pardon me. I'm not I. Yeah, Becky's gonna make the dates correct. And it was one other right? I think it was just I just wanted the I had a question about the it's the same language that was in the house version about the plan addressing. Just bring it up. Systemic address systemic racism, bias and diversity and inclusion. As the editors were looking at it again, they just wanted to make sure that we weren't trying to say systemic racism, bias and promote diversity and inclusion. I don't know. I think I think the meaning is clear here, but I just I wanted to just run that by the committee to make sure that that was not a change that they wanted to make. Just just curious so we can figure out when the committee can meet. Right? You're not asking representative Shaw. Yes. Did you have other changes that you were because you asked Senator Sears if if we were going to make changes to the Ash amendment, did were there other issues in there that you saw?  But I will. Okay. Okay. Did Becky get our answer? Yeah, I don't know. Can you explain that one again, please? Sure. So right now, where are you in the bill? So do you want me in you want me to go through Ash amendment? Okay, so then the Ash amendment. It is subsection C on page three. So it says the commissioner of correction shall submit for approval to the executive director of racial equity, a strategy and long term plan to address systemic racism, bias and diversity and inclusion in the Department of Corrections. Yeah, the editors think it should what is they just their their question was whether their systemic was meant to be modifying anything other than racism. And perhaps they had a suggestion of clarifying to address systemic racism, bias and promote diversity and inclusion. I you know, I think Actually, I think that does help because that is what you're trying to do. Any objection from anyone? Sounds fine. The representatives? No, it sounds fine. And I think that actually, I think that helping and promoting diversity and inclusion is much better. And then the last one I wanted to make is that I have to check with the Senate Secretary's office about whether just thinking about the census was already passed by the Senate and it was referred back to the Senate. I think it has to be a further proposal of amendment that comes from either one senator or it could be from each senator individually on the committee. But I just want to double check that if it's the case should I have it from every senator on the committee? Yes, unless there's a committee member who objects. I would report it, but Okay. So Becky, how many times have we amended this? So the bill came over to our house and it was not amended, I believe it was. No, it was it was a Senate bill that passed out of the Senate came to the house. Your committee amended it and it passed out of the house and then in the Senate it was referred to Senate Judiciary, which is I think that's the one thing that's confusing me a little is because it was referred back to a different committee than originally had jurisdiction over it. So I just want to double check with the Senate Secretary's office if it is a further proposal of amendment or committee amendment. I believe that you're correct that it is a concur with further proposal. So I just believe that's the way it would be. I think it's no different than because it's already passed the Senate in one manner and it's already passed the house in a different and now we're concurring further proposal. So if we submit some changes that we all agree to then you would change it tomorrow morning, I guess. Right, in the calendar. Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay, just want to get it here. But can we check to make sure with Secretary Bloomer that we can do that? Because I don't want to. So that we can change it tomorrow morning if we need to. So you'll vote it out now. We'll vote it out right now. Then we will use that crazy process to send it to him. I believe it's a concur with further proposal amendment, but then can we change our amendment on the fly tomorrow morning? Don't people often you have a substitute amendment for the one that's in the calendar? Yeah, I think you can. I'll connect with him to get the process for how that could happen. If I can ask Becky a question, I'm trying to get my committee. Trying to get my committee to meet either around 1230 or one o'clock. None of the members know about this yet. Becky, when would you have the language ready to present to us? Available. I could have it by that time. Okay. Thank you. Right. Is there any. So I would, I believe it's. Senator, somebody moved that we report as amended draft 1.1. Which would now be 1.2 or 1. Or 2.1. I'll change it to 1.2. So draft 1.2. Of. That's 124 that we concur. I'm going to. That we concur with further proposal amendment. And that is seen in draft 1.2 of that's 24. Is there any further discussion and any of the witnesses who. Are with us on zoom are welcome to comment, including representative Edmunds representative Shaw, Heather Simmons or Zana Davis. Any committee. Thoughts. Peggy, would you please call the roll? I think this is our only vote. Senator White. Yes. Senator Baruch. Yes. Senator Benning. Yes. Senator Nica. Yes. Senator Sears. Yes. All of our names would go on it. If it is a, if it's not a concur with further proposed amendment, then it was the committee vote was 500. Right. Again, thank you all very much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. And. If we could hang on as a committee, Peggy, after we bounce out of being live on the air. Sure. Let me know when to end the live. I think we're adjourning the meeting now. Thank you.