If you have a site that does not do production with Gutenberg on it right now, raise your hand. All right, keep your hands raised. Lower your hand if you do not like it. All right. Some people like Gutenberg in here. That's a good thing. All right, so I'm going to be talking about Gutenberg. I'm going to be talking about the development aspect of it.  I mean, from a user experience on creating content, I think it's a big step forward for WordPress. I think it's going to really revolutionize how we look at creating content. I think we're in a box before, right? The text editor box is all encompassing monstrosity as a monolithic thing that you can throw short codes into and things like that. I think Gutenberg is going to be a good step for that. My talks on Gutenberg about development side, probably about custom applications or custom development with it. I call it tail of love, hate, betrayal, and a mighty comeback and also case study. I'm going to start my talk by thanking you for being here. If you follow me on Twitter earlier today, I kind of want a little rant, and I'm not happy with how we'll don't come for second day. So I'm really happy you guys are here, not just on the second day of our word camp, but on the very last talk of the day. As a speaker, it's, I'm not going to lie, when I see that I'm on the last spot, I'm like, great, there's going to be like five people in the audience because there's going to be 10 people still left at work by the end of a Sunday. I really have you guys here, so thank you for being now, you guys are all my friends. About me, my name is Roy Siobhan. I'm a senior software engineer at the Walt Disney Company. I build websites for Disney, and as much as I said at the Pantheon booth, and as much as I wear Pantheon clothes, and as much as I love Pantheon, I actually don't work at Pantheon. And for your developer in the audience, there's two types of developers, those who get the joke with my name, and those who don't, and for those that don't, you're going to learn about it real quickly. A little bit more about me. My first install WordPress was a beta version. I was learning how to develop websites, and I learned about PHP include. I'm like, oh my god, this is going to revolutionize everything. I can now have one head or five. So I'm going to need to change it now by them. It's one file. That's amazing. And then my friend was like, you should check out this blog thing called WordPress. It looks pretty cool. And from then on, I've been contributing, working on, and just using WordPress in all sorts of forms. You can find me online pretty much anywhere, wordboy789. All right, what am I talking about? WordPress. If you're not here to talk about WordPress or listen about WordPress or you don't like WordPress, you're probably in the wrong place. I'm going to talk about WordPress. Gutenberg. Gutenberg is a new editor coming. I'm not going to go into too much detail about what Gutenberg is, but I'll be talking about it. I'll be talking about applications. So while you might be working on sites for small businesses and brochure or websites, we're going to be talking a little bit more about custom applications. So not necessarily apps for your phone, but not necessarily not apps for your phone. More robust websites that require a little more functionality and maybe a little more advanced coding. And finally, headless React. So I'll talk a little about what headless is if you don't know. But we're using React a lot nowadays. Gutenberg is React. So as we adopt more and more React, it's just going to be out there more. I'm not typically a React developer. I'm an Angular developer just because that's what I learned first. However, because of Gutenberg, I've really learned a lot more about React and how to use it. And I'm a fan now. I still tend to use Angular just because I know it. It's easy to get something running. But I tend to now use React more because it is not part of the WordPress ecosystem. That's a developer thing. You know, users don't really care that React's there or not. They didn't know what was there. It's just there for them. But as a developer, that's a really big step. Another big step for WordPress as we kind of make our way to Gutenberg. So I'm actually going to step back in time for a second. Here's 2014. I was standing either in this room or that room talking about WordPress as an application framework. I literally gave that talk here. And at the time, WPAPI or the WordPress REST API was in its infancy. It just started to come in to plug in Realm. I was playing around with some other options that were already out there. But I want to learn how to make JavaScript websites with Angular with WordPress PowerMap. Fun fact, if you go to a WordCamp website and throw a different year in the URL, it still lives. So there's my talk from 2014. WordPress as an application framework. This was on that line in my description using WordPress and WPAPI. What we remember is WPAPI and how we used to call it WPAPI. Yeah, pepper chargers and members. Let's talk about today. Basically, I'm going to give you the same exact talk I gave four years ago because I don't know how to be creative. But instead of WPAPI, I'm going to be talking about Gutenberg. It's pretty much the same exact talk just with a copy replace or a final replace. Let's start at the beginning. Some of you who didn't use, haven't used Gutenberg yet, right? Can you guys raise your hand? Who hasn't used Gutenberg yet? In development, in practice, whatever. You've seen it. You might have seen it on one of our presentations this weekend, but you don't actually have a site with it anywhere. So let me introduce you. It's Gutenberg. We have an affectionate name for Gutenberg. It's called Goots. If you follow the Goots on Twitter, it's actually a good place to get up-to-date information as well as satire remarks or sarcastic remarks about Gutenberg stuff. So while he's like the onion for Gutenberg, I would say. Not creating content but just commenting hilariously about it. And I always call it the Goots because Gutenberg is really long. I have to say it over and over again. It's really long. So Goots. I know all of you are going to ask me, do I know when it's coming? And the answer is no. I don't know. But the good thing is, it's going to come when it's ready. So I can't give you a date because I don't know a date. But I pretty much can guarantee that when it makes its way into core and core comes out, whether it's 5.0 or whatever it might be, it's going to be ready for it. Well, WordPress will be ready for it. And I don't know who will be ready for it. But it'll be ready. Here's where my rant starts. And this is where my love and hate part kind of come into play. So I already told you why I love it. There's a lot of cool things. It's a really good editor for people with right content. But as a developer, here's where my hate really kind of comes into play. This is what wall structure JSON data looks like. It's an object. You see all the data keys are there. Their values are there. So when you're using the REST API, let me see another, raise your hands. Who uses the REST API or knows about the REST API?  Yeah. What was that? Was that planned? REST API. It's basically a way to get data from your WordPress site in JSON form, and you can use it pretty much anywhere. While WordPress democratizes content and creation of content, the REST API allows us to kind of democratize how we use the data. So if you have an application on your phone or somewhere else and you want your blog data, your site data to be there, you use the API. Go back to 2014. I'll tell you all about it. For every post via the REST API, you get a nice structure of data. You get an object-reached post, and you get an array of those posts. So it's really well structured. You can easily iterate through all of your posts. You can tell it, hey, I only want posts from one category, iterate through those. And you can do a lot with that. It is structured. It's an array. It's easy to use. This is Gutenberg. I bet this data looks amazing and super well structured, right? No. How many of you know what an HTML comment is? Literally making a comment in HTML. Yeah. Then you know what Gutenberg data looks like because that's all it is. If you look at it, you'll see there's an HTML comment that says WP paragraph. That's what we're just saying, hey, this is the start of the paragraph block. If you look at the next one, it's a cover image. There's some data there and another image. There's a cover image and an image. So when I show this to people and they don't know what the data looks like and they're like, wow, I can't believe the data looks like that. What do I end up getting back from them? Hi, Roy. What about the data via the REST API? It must be an array of data, right? There's blocks. The blocks are there. The blocks let themselves to be an array of data. Nope. Not an array of data. Have you ever looked at the database of said Gutenberg data? It's not that pretty either. So the screenshot up here, that's from SQL Pro. So if you don't use SQL Pro, it's a gooey for looking at my SQL, looking at your database. Every time I see these things, I'm like, why? Why is it so painful? And I'll tell you why. It needs to be backwards compatible. It's really what it comes down to. Backwards compatibility is both the greatest thing about WordPress at times, but also the band and mic systems at times. If you're running a WordPress site that's 3.9 or later, like newer, they say that your WordPress site should never break. But I also know WordPress runs 30% of the internet, so I also know that not having backwards compatibility is also not a good option. So here we have Gutenberg. Here we have the data that we can do nothing with because it's useless. So thank you. My name is Roy Siobhan. Any questions? Here, are there any questions up to this point in the top? I've shown you what Gutenberg looks like. I've shown you the data. Let's answer some questions up right up here in the front. Yeah. So I understand that the data is stored in the way that it is for backwards compatibility, but why was there no forward compatibility also included in the initial design and development of it? Like why important compatibility as opposed to backwards compatibility as in creating a method for structured data to access the rest of it? Yeah. That's an excellent question, just not for me. I'm a bad person. I really wish I had the time to contribute as much as other goals contribute. I just don't have the time, and that's really unfortunate. I wish that, yeah, someone in there was advocating for, hey, what's the future look like? What does this look like 10 years down the line? And not just that, when the REST API came, it was a huge deal for developers. We were like, yes, a REST API, that's a good thing. We can build cool things with REST APIs. Gutenberg is built with the REST API. It couldn't be there if it wasn't for the REST API, but users don't care about the REST API. 30% of the internet is running on WordPress. 29.9% doesn't care the REST API. It's just there. And it's a great tool for us developers. It's not a great tool for users. Gutenberg, on the other hand, is a user tool. So users are said to put it at the forefront, and that's fine because it is a user's tool. It is a conventional new convention of how to create content. Why we haven't thought about, hey, how does this work with the REST API? How do we make this better? I don't know. I'm sure there's GitHub issues for it. This is a conversation that we've been having ever since Gutenberg came out. Like, I think maybe like San Diego, last San Diego, I know I talked to a lot of developers about it. And it was just like, we all knew it was there. We kind of just let it go because we all have lives. We're all busy. We're all trying to make more assignments, right? We can't always contribute as much as we want to, but we all know it's there. But I will talk about how to get there shortly. Any other questions? That's for up to this point. No? All right. Thank you for asking that question because Gutenberg object plug-in. My shameless plug-in. So what I did was, after working on San Diego, I was talking to, I think Scott Wallinger, I think John was there, and we've just had a couple conversations, and I was like, you know what, this is BS. I want code and I want data. I think it's fantastic what Gutenberg does for the users. I don't like what it does for me because it does nothing. So what I did was I hijacked the save command and I said, when I save, when you save Gutenberg, I just want to gobble up that data. I don't want to talk too much about the plug-in. If you want to talk to me about it afterwards, if you want to find me on Twitter, I'm happy to talk about how it works. It's all open source. It's all my GitHub. If you find me on Twitter, I have links directly to it. You can just link there. But I was like, okay, this needs to happen. I need to be able to literally just iterate through blocks because it makes a lot more sense. Does anyone here use ACF flex content or like those live, those layouts? So one of the greatest things about ACF flex content was being able to go, hey, here's a new layout block with some data. And I'm going to create a partial, a template partial for just that one layout. And I'm like, great, Gutenberg's going to do exactly that except it's going to be built into core. And then that's all disabled. I'm like so close, so close. This is what the data looks like with my plug-in installed. On every single post returned, you get editor blocks. There's an array. And each block is there with the attributes of the data for that block. If you go to devgoots.url, it's also linked to my Twitter. There's a live site running right now. If you go there to the URL, it will take you to the welcome page because I only have one page on the site. It's the welcome page that's built in Gutenberg. And it'll take you there. You'll see all the data. You'll see the editor blocks are there. Not just that. I want you to try it out. So whether it's now, whether it's later, go to that URL slash admin, which will take you to WP Admin. If you're a security nut and you hate when people share passwords, I would look away at it right now. There's the username password for the author account. Feel free to create your own content and see what happens when you go to the REST API endpoint. If you don't know how to get to the REST API endpoint, it's the same exact URL. Slash wp dash JSON slash wp slash v2 slash post slash post ID. I'll leave that up. Take pictures. I didn't put the username password on my Twitter. I feel like that might be a little bit much. And if you're watching this on WordPress.tv, I don't know if it would work anymore. So I might go down. I don't even pan down. We're really happy with me for doing this. All right. So now that we have that data, how do you access it? Well, so there's two ways via the REST API. One is I just inject it into the regular post object. So every time you look, you get your post now, there's still going to be other content. It's still going to be backwards compatible because everyone needs to be backwards compatible. But there's also going to be that new block. Where does it get saved? During this whole process of thinking about things, I decided, well, what they should have done was what I just did, but create a new table on wp dash underscore post. So next to post content, you had another column, which was just that data. Backwards compatible, forwards compatible, all in the same place. But they didn't do that. So I just created a new table. So you'll get a new table in your database called goods arrays. And that's where all the data for each post will be stored. It only works one way. You can only store data from Gutenberg. I had a long conversation with a guy named Kevin Hoffman, who's a smart developer, and we decided, well, I decided that saving data to the Gutenberg of basic word Gutenberg stores its data was bad if you're not using Gutenberg. There's a whole bunch of other applications of that. Obviously you have to run through all the basic word pressed up every time you want to resave that data. So basically there's only one point of save and that's through Gutenberg. Makes it a lot easier that way. But all the data is there. So again, it adds Gutenberg data, just as it looks like this, to regular posts. As well as there's a new REST API and point I threw in just so I could look at something unique and isolate. But if you want to isolate just the Gutenberg data, you don't want the rest of your post content or you don't want the rest of your post data. You only want the Gutenberg data. You have a unique endpoint just for that. It comes in handy when you are only needing the content. Similar to like if you guys are familiar with Graph2L and you only want the content, well, I have that REST endpoint for that. For those people like ACF, I also threw in a PHP command. So we'll return an array of all those blocks, which again, so it's just been done out of the box, but it didn't. So just grabs the same data, returns an array, you for loop, while loop, whatever. You loop through that data and you have all the data from every single block. And break again. Do I have any questions up to this point? No? Good. So now that I've talked about why Gutenberg sucks and how I made a plugin to make it better, let's talk about a case study. As everyone's familiar with the company Airstream, they make trailers, campers, trailers, things like that. All right, cool. They have a cool little, like, their retro look company stainless steel rivets. Again, to you, at least, in one of them. So they're actually building a new site and Latlong is actually the digital agency that hired me to consult with them. So yeah, this is the case study. Latlong basically reached out to me, asked me if I knew anything about Gutenberg. And I said, yes. Then they asked me, hey, they told me there's a scenario. They wanted to build a headless react WooCommerce website. Let me let you sync that in a little bit. Headless react WooCommerce. And then throw Gutenberg on top. And I was like, you know what? I got just the thing for you. And I just built it. It's called this object plugin. And they hired me on spot. So what's the setup? Basically, we already talked about it. WordPress on the back end, WooCommerce on the back end, Gutenberg on the back end, a GraphQL layer. And then I had this react app. It's not launched yet. So I can't really share too much code. I will share some screenshots and I'll show you I'll share more about like the philosophical kind of look at how we took everything. But just keep in mind that the site was built for people who write content. And that's why they wanted Gutenberg. I recommend if you guys take clients, put Gutenberg on their sites, don't show them the regular editor, show them Gutenberg, let them learn Gutenberg first. So that's what we want to do with them. We knew that Gutenberg would be able to leverage Gutenberg much more than the regular content editor, the classic editor as it is. And so we were like, you know what, Gutenberg just makes more sense. So here's a cool screenshot. This is WooCommerce. That's WooCommerce. That's a helpless WooCommerce app. So that's what their dev site is for right now. And so I'm just going to run through all the steps. So why WordPress? I already talked about WordPress, you know, it was mainly for their content team. WordPress is a great CMS. Thanks to Jeremy Fremont from the last talks. Great slide. I wish I had just copied it. But hey, that's cool. WordPress is awesome. Hello, WordPress. I've been using WordPress for a long time.  So when someone says, why WordPress, I don't even know how to answer that anymore. Why? Why Headless? So performance, key factor there. When you have a headless app, you don't have to worry about the rest of WordPress. You don't have to load anything. You can do whatever you want with it. All you're doing is taking the data. It's a management. So when you have a site that's headless, you can really specify that people are working on it to only be experts in whatever that's built in. Separation of concerns. So if one team is actually writing in product data and blog posts and all that, you can have a separate team work independently on the front end. You don't even have developers working on the back end. So all they do is the WordPress site, which was my main role in this project. I was the WordPress guy. If they needed something on the front end, they came to me and said, hey, we're trying to get data for products. I was like, hang on a second. Do a poll. You've got the data now. I was the WordPress side of things. You can separate the concerns there. And that allows really experts to kind of show what they're experts at. The guys that are doing the React side while I dabble in it, they're far beyond my level of React. And that's amazing. And that's awesome. But I would just slow them down if I was on the React side. However, they would slow me down if they were doing WordPress stuff. Because every time they do anything with WordPress, I'm like, all right, I'll just clean up your code now. Thank you. Yeah, it's never fun. But I was the WordPress guy and it made things easy. And then finally connectivity. If you know about APIs, you know they're now kind of everywhere. And when you have a headless app, it allows you to actually connect to multiple APIs. So I'm saying WordPress, WooCommerce and all that. But let's say you have another API that does like analytics training, where you have another API that maybe pulls in data from somewhere else. Maybe you have a mix of products of WooCommerce and Amazon, right? With a headless app, you can actually grab all that data, put it together. And again, you're on that separate server for multiple, multiple reasons. It's just better. Not for everybody, not for every blog site. So don't get any crazy ideas that your blog about cats should be headless. Shouldn't be. Again, to you all. But it does come handy. All right, working with Gutenberg. Let me tell you, working with Gutenberg is so much fun because it is the best moving target. I love working on something and then having it break two weeks later because they push an update. It's just fantastic. I will give you a hint, though. This is something I learned pretty early on during the development of this project.   And I said, I don't want to need your blockchain and create my own custom blocks. That's what we did. We created custom blocks. And I think the only block we have that's for is paragraph because we couldn't figure out how to get some of the keyboard shortcuts they hijack into that block. Because that's the main block that when you load a post, there's already four blocks ready to go for you to type into. A lot of that trickiness, we couldn't figure out how to mimic that of a block. So we just love the core paragraph block one. But every other block that's on there is a custom block. And it made my life so much better. Because as soon as we made that decision, I cared about Gutenberg updates, but I didn't care about the blocks themselves because the blocks themselves were basically just extra fluff that we weren't even using. Gutenberg and WooCommerce. Who here just absolutely loves working on templating WooCommerce sites? Yeah, so I thought no one. Because no one does. I will say that Gutenberg and WooCommerce fortunately don't play at all well together. It's amazing how much these two products don't work together. But that makes it more fun. So they do work together. Me too. It's kind of unfair. They do play together, like Tom and Jerry. There's a good example. They play together like Tom and Jerry, because sometimes it'll work and they're friends, and then most of the time they're not. But my favorite thing about the headless part though is there's no WooCommerce templates. Everything we did, including the cart, including the checkout, is all headless. It's all react. So all they're doing is raising WooCommerce on the back end for products, orders, payments, but pretty much everything else is its own reacting. Another cool thing that happened while I was working on WooCommerce in Gutenberg, this came out. And that's a changelog from WooCommerce. Yeah, that was a fun update. We were like, wait, what just happened to Gutenberg on all our products? And then I had to dig through the changelog files and I found this. Disabled Gutenberg editor on products. It's a tweak. Yeah, that's what it is. A tweak. Didn't see that one coming. No one told me it was coming. And you know what they did? They created a filter really far deep into the code with no documentation that allows you to turn it back on. So there was a fix. Took me a while to find it, but it does work. If you need my code for that, let me know. I can share it with you. You'll find it. There's people talking about it at this point, but yeah, finding that saved us a lot. So if you want to do Gutenberg and WooCommerce, you can just use that. All right. Let's talk about React a little bit. Has anyone here worked with React already? Cool.  I will say that there was a thread on Twitter talking about some tips and tricks for Gutenberg development. And one of the biggest things I took away from all of this experience was I kind of learned to react separately before Gutenberg, right? And Gutenberg has, well, they introduced a library that sits on top of React. So when you do something like, I think it's WP.element, that literally just creates a React component. So what I did was I just took the WP.element out of the equation and I just did React work so I could learn Gutenberg. I didn't want to learn Gutenberg's like arbitrary library just so I can learn how it works. And then I added a library afterwards. In my life, a lot easier. So if you're a fan of React and you already use React, try doing it that way. One of the coolest features that we put together for this project was React components are agnostic to where they live. So a React component can live anywhere you want it to.   That's one code base. This is not a front-end editor. It's not a front-end editor, but it's not too far off. So like you see the similarities between these two components, they're three images, they all link to products. They're identical. That's because they have the same data. Whether you're viewing the site on the front end or you're viewing it via the Gutenberg editor, the same data is going to the same code. So why can't it look identical? I'm not saying that it's going to be a front-end editor soon, but you can kind of foreshadow what's going to happen that you Gutenberg feed three when you have that kind of power. So I think there's actually already front-end editors that people all put together, like mashed up together for Gutenberg. I've seen a couple examples, but I think this is where it's going to go, and that's going to be pretty cool. I know there's a lot of page folders that are already front-end editing, but this is, again, this is one code base. There's no extra code. We literally have a component library that sits outside of both WordPress and the headless. We made an end-cam package, and then every time we update a component, both sites just get an end-cam update, and they have the latest component. One of them takes Gutenberg settings, one of them reads Gutenberg data from API. I was my case study, and I want you to try it for yourself. So I already gave you the author for my dev account, but I want you to actually have your own version of it.  Feel free to find me, because I have business cards from someone who might be able to help you. But what you can do is you can go to Pantheon and create a free dev account, 100% free. Create an organization, and then you can basically just say, hey, I have a custom upstream. Here's the URL to it, and when you install it, hey, I need to install a new site. It'll ask you which site you want to install. Do you want to install a WordPress site? Do you want to install a triple site? And you're like, no, I want to install Goose and Goose Object. That's my custom upstream. So that's going to give you everything you need to get up and running with everything I just built for our air stream. More or less. It's my plugin. It's Gutenberg. It's WordPress. Has anyone created content on that site? Has anyone actually managed to get on there? You did. Awesome. I'm going to go ahead and put it here. I can't see you. Can I just get Jason? I have to see you. Hold on. Entertain yourselves. All right, what we got here. We got a post titled New Goose, and here's the content. So let's zoom in for you guys. Again, someone created this post. This is the rendered content. This is what you would see on the front end, if you're viewing the site. And this is what Gutenberg saves. This is Gutenberg at its finest right there. Luckily we have my plugin installed, and then I can see, hey, there's some editor blocks. And I see that the first block is a core paragraph block. This is really important because we want to know not just the name of the block that we're working on, but the core allows you to know, okay, this is a core block. It's a namespace for that block. So if I wanted to create a partial or a template part, just for that one block, I now can. So Gutenberg is handy every day. That's awesome and terrifying, but it's like a tsunami. Yes, it is. Question is, will the rest of servers get wiped out? But as you can see, all the data is there, right? So someone created a list. There's all the list values. We know that if it's a list, there should be a URL, but here are all the LIs. And this is what Gutenberg saves. I'm not modifying anything. This is just what it saves. And instead of saving it like this, I'm like, hey, it should be a ring. And then there's a core embed with the YouTube video. Which is awesome. I'm pretty excited about this kind of stuff. That's it. Are there any other questions? Yeah. I have a question about caching. So most word for us is loop-conference sites. People put in all sorts of caching plugins to create. If you will, a lightweight, decoupled architecture of sort of a headless, if you will, like page caching, kind of buffering the PHP workers and database queries. What you're presenting here is a real decoupled application. The React front-end WordPress loop-back-end database. So I presume your front-end had to be really fast, really handle traffic spikes well, and you had to use cases for that. So what sort of caching is the other? Or how did you do caching? Did you still do like object caching? And the back-end system WordPress move? Is there special caching on this React app? Or how do you get that done? So since the project's still on the fly, we haven't had much of a caching, right? But I will say that there probably is going to be caching on the back-end just to catch the database. But what I didn't show you was the GraphQL layer. So the GraphQL layer also does has a caching to it. So when you ping the GraphQL layer, it's going to return the last version of the data. It does that through hash, basically, which creates a hash mark and then sees if the database has changed at all. Or it'll periodically update itself without you forcing it to. And then the front-end will just be completely cached, obviously. At the front-end, because it's headless, there is no PHP, right? So it's all HTML, JavaScript, CSS. That's all it's running.  So I'm not too worried about the performance because it's headless. There are issues, obviously, with issues when it comes to on-the-fly kind of data, right? So we're now working on the checkout aspect. There is no WooCommerce checkout. It is part of the React app. So they're going to ping me on the API side. I'm going to create a token, I'm going to send it back, and we're going to go through the transaction. And I'm still going to have to use WooCommerce for all that. But just via the API, I'm going to create an order. And I don't think there's going to be that much more caching to it. I don't think we'll actually need it. Once we hand it over to Airstream, they also have the text side that's going to probably look and make that any better than they think to. Question in the back. So the question was, if I used anything like out of the box to create my blocks? No, I have seen his code base. I looked at it to help myself learn a little bit about Gutenberg. If you want to learn more about it, I highly recommend looking at Zach Borden. He has some really good stuff out there for tutorials on how to get up and running with creating blocks. But once I looked at both of theirs, plus Josh Pollock has a few really good examples. I just kind of took all the best of it. And I put it together with just a core documentation that they released and created our own blocks that way. I didn't really kind of look at a mishmash of everything, I guess. Yeah? No, but if you want a great one, I'd be happy for you to create one on my behalf. Yeah. Yeah, so let me run through that really quick. So out of the box, you get all core endpoints, basically core blocks supported. Up to the last time I looked at Gutenberg, I looked at what core blocks are, right? If they add a new block, I'm probably not already have a score for it. What I did do was there's two main things you might want to look at. First is look at this thing. This is actually adding custom host type support. Out of the box, you only get post support for my plugin. We had an issue with Airstream where they have other post types, like products, and they have their own custom post type for the stories or blog posts. So I had to create that. I used a global define for that, just so it can be across all sites. That's kind of just how we did it. I might change that up later, but for right now, that's what it is. There are a lot of helper functions out. There's one for getting the array of data. The main part that I liked that I added in was this hook and JavaScript. So if you create a custom block and you're like, hey, it doesn't come out right in your editor, like in the API. It's basically WP Hooks add filter. It's clean data, and then the name of the block. So core paragraph. And then you just pass it back, call back, and that'll pass in the attribute data.  And that's what it'll sort of database. So what I did was I went through all the blocks that I have currently supported. Basically, all it is is block game. Every single one does. There's a pretty simple file. It's just which block am I supporting with this and what data needs to go back. You can just send back the same exact data if you want. And that's what it does by default. But for this one, I needed to render, you know, something to string it to render, I think because with this is a core button. I think there was another, like, react component built into the text. So rendering to string makes it a string, which I store the database. So by default, you get basically just a return of the attributes. But then you can hook in, create a filter, and then you can run any block. So what I did was WDS released that they were going to create. They have a plugin out with their own blocks. I said, hey, WDS, that's cool of you to create a plugin with extra blocks. So because they've open sourced their project, I was like, I'll add in that support into my plugin. So if you use WDS blocks, I support that. But it's pretty easy to add new block support and save the data or manipulate the data any way you want before it gets stored in the database. If you are going to use my plugin, please create issues on GitHub.  I had someone tell me a couple of days ago that the core heading stopped working. And that's because it was a moving target. So to create an issue, I looked at it. I realized what I needed to change. I changed it. I created a core request for myself and I merged it and it fixed everything for that block. So if you find all of it, obviously create issues. I'm happy to work with anyone that needs to use this for anything. Any other questions? Yeah. If you're using your plugin and there is a new block for changing a block on the core website, what would happen with your plugin when we get an error message? So by default, what it'll do is it'll try to save it anyway. And it'll run through all of the save functions. You might see an error in your console because it'll error out somewhere before it actually saves to the database. So it actually won't save any new data to the database if there's an error. But if it's more or less easy data like strings, maybe like integers, things like that, then it'll just save normal. A lot of the blocks I was looking at didn't really need much alterations because they're just like a string. So as my core filter just returns back whatever the set gets sent. And the only issue comes in play when it's like, okay, there's more data to this, right? So I had a problem with the core paragraph where drop cap is just boolean. You want to drop cap on this paragraph. That's easy. I can just return that back and it'll save the problem. But the content itself has all these sub-react components for when you bolt something or when you have an underline. So I had to turn that into a string first and then save it. But if you do have a block and it's a core block, credit issue, and I'll get on it. Just for my knowledge, you're calling it a web application, but is this just a website that's more indirect that it's cheap? What do you mean by a web application? It can be anything. So anytime you have, I'm not saying web applications in terms of like, yes, high UI or high functionality needs that are beyond a brochure or what do I say, beyond a, hey, here's what we do. Here's what, you know, about us. Here's my contact, right? That's your basic WordPress website. Get beyond that into realms of, hey, I need something really custom. That's when you start talking application realm, right? But it can be a phone application. I love AppPressure for what it is. It is a headless app that runs on people's phones. This can help you run your AppPressure better. If you wanted AppPressure supported, Gutenberg supported into your AppPressure, you'd do something like this and now you have Gutenberg data in AppPressure, on any phone app. So it's really anytime you're consuming data from WordPress, not within WordPress or, I mean, even within WordPress, but that's what I'm going after. Yeah. So a weird question. I found out today that Gutenberg is being supported through Google. Yeah. Does your plugin work on how you're seeing that since? Yeah, I know. It's definitely a WordPress plugin. But in theory, I mean, if you were to change where it goes into, it could work. I mean, you'd have to just change what initiates to save. So my initiation is, yeah, WP data subscribe, that's what initiates it. As soon as that triggers, everything else gets triggered. So find a way to replace that line with Drupal data subscribe and you're golden. I mean, the database part would also not work. So you'd have to print it out. Is Drupal going to have messed up data? No, no, no. So, wow, I hate, I don't want to say I hate to say this, but Drupal figured out the data problem a long time ago. And now that they have Gutenberg, they're going to be forced to be reckoned with when it comes to that kind of stuff, because they've already figured out the data problem. Yeah. Can you expand on that just a little bit, please? The data that I want, Drupal already had. Like, when I show this as a Drupal dev, they're like, that's nice. We had that, like, whatever, five years ago. Yeah. But yeah, the data has always been more well-structured on the Drupal side. The CMS part of Drupal has always lagged for me. Gutenberg now with Drupal. I might have to look into that. Any other questions? Is anyone going to install my plug-in? How many cells do you have right now? It's open source, it's not part of the orc, so I can't really count it. You know what really matters to me? Airstream. They're using my plug-in. No, I can't tell you, because I know the people who have thrown in issues, so they're probably using it on somewhere. But yeah, I don't have to count on active insults. You've been sharing this in Europe. Any WordCamps in Europe? I think that would be really interesting. No. If you're on WordTest.tv in Europe, plug-in, check it out. I mean, it's a pretty new project. I mean, I created it right after WordCamp San Diego when I was really annoyed about the whole thing, and then I've just been updating it. So I guess the initial comment right here is five months ago, that's when I first created it. I've been working on it ever since, yeah. Do you think this plug-in could get merged before in a structural way? Like, do you think that's a realistic probability? I haven't talked to anyone on the core side about this, so I don't know. Maybe not in the way I do it, because I'm kind of a coder that's like, I just need this done, and I'm going to do as elegantly as I can within just getting it done. Like, there's certain parameters there, right? Like, eventually I'm going to get to a point where my code's not the best code, but it works. So I don't know. They might have a better way of doing this, but I think I'd love to see conceptualities on like this getting merged to the core. I'd love to see, as she said, forward compatibility as opposed to just backwards. But if anyone who's watching is a core, I'm happy to work on this and get it mergeable. Any other questions? Yeah. What else would you like to do with this? Takeover the work. I don't know. I've only been a helpless fan. I love building stuff outside of the realm of the theme or plug-in, so I'm curious to see what Gutenberg does, and I just want to make sure that this is going to keep up with Gutenberg. In the future, I don't know. Maybe it'll power more things. If, as Gutenberg kind of itself grows into whatever final flow it's going to take, I hope that this thing kind of just tags along and is able to continuously be thinking about the future as opposed to always thinking back, I love that future compatibility. I'm going to use that from now on. Just calling it important that WorkCamp US mentioned how Gutenberg and VR will be together closer in the future than we think. Yeah. I don't know what I'm going to plan on doing this further, but for right now, as long as it supports the current iteration of Gutenberg, I'm not going to have to do that. Yeah. Can you talk about the decision of using GraphQL in the project? The main purpose of using GraphQL is when you're querying data. Like I told you, I have one RCA API in point that just adds Gutenberg data to your post, your regular post content, and then I have another API that you just want to Gutenberg data. So GraphQL allows you to say, hey, I want the latest post from this category, but within that post, all I need is the title and the content, or I need the title and the length. And then all you get back is just that data. So it's a little bit faster if it's cached properly, as well as the fact that you don't have to worry about it not being there, because GraphQL takes care of that concern. You're saying, hey, I need this, and in some form or another, you're going to get it back. So you're not saying, hey, I need a hyperlink, or I need a permalink. First, let me check if it's there. You can kind of assume it's going to be there. And so that's why we kind of went in that direction. On Saturday morning, Alex Vasquez challenged me to learn Gatsby, so I don't know if anyone's heard about Gatsby yet. I spent the day trying to learn it. It failed miserably. I couldn't get there. But my next iteration, I guess, would be learn Gatsby, get Gutenberg connected to Gatsby, and figure out what that looks like. That would be sort of like GraphQL, I think it's a performance front end, and then it handles back end. Are there any other questions? Cool. I'll let you guys go a little bit early, because we're all exhausted. You can find me pretty much anywhere online for Airboy 789. And if you haven't used Gutenberg yet, please go test. Test your site on something. If you don't know how to test a site, you don't have a place to test your site, go to Pantheon, set up a free account. They'll help you migrate your site to your dev site. And then you can just install Gutenberg, and then you'll see what happens to your site. I mean, in a lot of cases, nothing will happen, but in some cases, it'll all break. Figure out which one, what side of the equation you're on, and go from there. But test. Any time anyone has a concern about Gutenberg with me, I just say, hey, I know how to fix your problem. Test it. And that's really always the answer. Thank you.


Today's fountain pen unboxing is a beautiful ST Dupont. This is a recent release called Gold Dust that joined the ST Dupont line D large fountain pen collection. This Gold Dust release is a USA exclusive edition of the popular line D large collection. You do get the iconic cling that people love with the ST Duponts and you have a fluted grip section that really lets you get a hold of your pen and have a great writing experience and You can see why this pen is named the Gold Dust It is a cartridge converter and it takes a standard international size converter or ink cartridge And it does come with an ink cartridge included each pin is fitted with the ST Dupont's 14 karat gold nib and This lacquer this deep black lacquer is painted on in nine different layers and it's natural black lacquer It's hand painted on the brass barrel And then embellished with a sprinkling of gold dust if you want more information about this beautiful pin visit pinchlay.com


In thinking about this session, I was reflecting back on the past year, and in my job as Senior Forestry Officer with FAO, I go to a lot of meetings around the region, often a lot more meetings than I wish to go to. But all of the first part of last year, virtually every meeting I attended, there was discussion about the upcoming Paris UNFCCC COP meeting.  What would it include? How robust would it be? Would it have any teeth? And at the same time, the countries of the world were busy meeting in various negotiation sessions to discuss the Sustainable Development Goals, the so-called 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development. And again, people were wondering how many SDGs we would end up with. We have 15 or 34 or 27.  What kind of indicators we would have to try to monitor and track them, these sorts of questions. But pleasantly by the end of the year, we did have a Paris agreement on climate change, including a very strong focus on forestry and forests and the land sectors. And we had agreement on the 17 Sustainable Development Goals. We also had most countries coming forward with serious commitments in their nationally determined commitments. So then the calendar turned and the new year started and people started asking the difficult question. Now that we have this, how do we put them into action? We find countries in particular scrambling, struggling in many cases to put into practical application what their negotiators had committed to in Paris and other negotiating sessions. So as Minister Freydenberg mentioned this morning, it's really the question is how we can maintain the momentum that was generated with the Paris agreement as we move forward in forestry sector and natural resources. Do we have the right institutions and governance in place? Do we have the policies and regulations that can drive action in the directions we want? What financing do we need and where is it going to come from and what will be the roles of the various players, private sector, government and others? So these are some of the questions that our panel will address this morning. And just to outline a little bit how we will operate for the panel session. First we will have an introductory presentation from Ibonur Masripatan. So used to calling Ibonur only Ibonur, struggle with the family name. Then I will invite the panelists to have initial thoughts and perspectives on the topic overall and we'll have some give and take and panel discussion and hopefully have room for questions from you from the floor before closing. I would like to first before Ibonur begins with her presentation to very briefly introduce our panels. We've been invited to keep the introductions very short because they're all included and you can access them from the internet, the website for the conference. But Ibonur is the Director General of Climate Change Management with the Ministry of Environment and Forestry in Indonesia. To my immediate left we have Justin Lee who is the Deputy Head of Mission to Indonesia from the Government of Australia. And next down the line is Mr. Henning Hortlen Johensen who is the Minister Counselor and Deputy Representative to ASEAN from the Norwegian Embassy based in Jakarta. And finally as you already were introduced this morning and know well Dr. Peter Holmgren who is the Director General of the Center for International Forestry Research. So to get us started I would like to invite Ibonur to give us a short presentation on this topic overall, introduce us to the issues. Thank you Patrick, colleague, good morning. Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. It's always good to see familiar faces and new people in occasion or meeting like this. In trying to address the issues that need to be covered guided by the organizing committee I will start with the introduction, let's see the situation in ASEA Pacifica forest. With 740 million hectares of forest area or 26 percent of global tropical rainforest and also with 4.4 billion people, about 60 percent of the region will play an important part of NDC in many countries of our region. When we talk about negotiation in forest or role of forest and climate change our attention or our mind will be brought to first about CDM. And we also learn how we end up with CDM and of course we don't want to have a red plus and like a CDM forestry. So let's see how we have gone through with 10 years red plus negotiation and piloting. Forest has been played an important role in the climate negotiation since the past 10 years. We also look at that situation. The reason was the alarming rate of devastation and forest degradation in developing countries on one side and in another side is the important role of forest both for national development and also in livelihood for millions of people in our region. This is also one of the reason why forest has been a place as important sector in the climate change agenda since then. 10 years we have negotiation under UNXCCC as produce sufficient guidance for both red plus countries also for our partners in supporting the result based of red plus implementation. And in this same period we have a lot of experience in piloting with red plus at various skills and approaches. And with this piloting experience also in negotiation has set light on what issues to be addressed for red plus implementation. And more importantly in the context of Paris agreement red also provided concrete example and valuable lessons for developing transparency framework that is very important part of the Paris agreement. If you look at the support for red plus since the beginning of the negotiation of red plus after Montreal 2014 certain record number of record on red plus finance one of the record from center for global development recorded that there has been about 9.8 billion in which almost 90% of the pledge originated from public sector. We can understand why mostly from public sector as we know that red plus so far mostly is still in a region or transition phase and also when we talk about red plus result is finance that is still based on non-market approaches. I also recorded additional 5 billion pledge by Norway, Germany, UK in Paris. The challenge now is how to effectively incentivize red plus countries with the existing rules including Warsaw framework while preparing implementation of Paris agreement from 2020 onwards. We know now that still very few countries that got the incentives through result based payment. That's the challenge in red plus. Then role of private sector. We know that role of private sector has continuously again increasing attention. In Paris, role of private sector is formally recognized under the decision that within the role of non-partistic holder where should enhance the role of non-partistic holders including private sector. There is a role also co-presidencies, high level champions and non-party or non-actor, non-state actors, a zone for climate change action. This is also the room for recognition of private sector. However, internationalization or internalizations to the national context should be in accordance with national regulation, also national circumstances policies so that we could integrate, the word integration, integrate our effort to be one integrated national effort and global effort. Then what is the positive impacts to forest governance? We look at the efforts done by developing countries. We are talking about Asia Pacific region. We have shown a lot of progress in the effort of strengthening a governance system through various policy intervention. Some example clearly in the forest sector certification including the assurance of sustainable source of timber being imported and exported. This is very important strengthening a trade cooperation that could provide sufficient incentive to sustainable product from forest. In our case, there are a number of policy interventions that we do, first about one map policy that to encourage the compliance and also the compliance to the special plan, the compliance to use the same base map for our policy decision and also a number of policy reform in order to restore our degraded pitland and improving our pitland ecosystem management. Our contribution, in our INDC Indonesia committed to reduce emissions by 21% to 41% by 20% 30% compared to business as usual. With this commitment, like all other parties, we have to communicate, we have to form our long-term carbon development strategy law, carbon development strategy. There are three principles that we put there in INDC implementation, enable economic growth and put people welfare as a priority and the second support protection of poor and vulnerable communities and environmental conservation and also focus on the intervention that reduce emission and strengthen policy framework. This is the last slide, opportunity for collaboration in the region. With the diversity of our national circumstances, capacities and also capabilities, this open opportunity for wide range of area for regional cooperation. If we talk about the forestry sector alone, investment in sustainable forestry, or if we talk about the broader scale in landscape approach, investment in this and this is part to undertake and communicate ambitious effort on mitigation, adaptation and also providing means of implementation as well as transparency of framework. Under Paris Agreement, we know that transparency framework will play a critical role in assessing both collective and individual contribution to the global efforts in achieving the climate convention objective. Asia Pacific countries could collaborate in building and implementing the transparency framework, both for excellent support, including in addressing the methodological challenge on forest oil and sector accounting. That's all that I could say this morning in order to address the question that we need to discuss under this panel. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Eva, excellent introduction to the issues, presenting a lot of things for us to think about and to dig in more deeply. With that, I'd like to invite each of the rest of the panel, the other panel members to share their ideas and perspectives on how we go forward, just with a general question to start with, to share ideas and then we can dig into some specifics as we go along. Justin, would you like to start and give us some of your ideas? Thank you very much and thank you for the opportunity to be here today. I'm based in Jakarta and I have responsibility for Australia's development corporation projects there and particularly our cooperation with Indonesia. I'll just probably touch on perhaps five things to say around this area of collaboration. I think first is to highlight the importance of the sector, of the forestry and land sector and how welcome it was that the Paris Agreement in Article 5 recognized the importance there. Especially for countries in the region as it was reflected in the INDCs, the forestry and land sector is very important for countries' strategies. I think for Indonesia it's around 63% of the total emissions and for a number of other countries in the region, it is a very important sector. I think first point that I would emphasize is the importance of taking a holistic policy approach. I think many of the challenges that we see in addressing forest degradation and deforestation also relates to other issues around agricultural practice, atmospheric pollution, development. So clearly there's a range of policy issues that need to be considered together and I think for governments to consider them in a holistic way is important. I also think that there's opportunities in that. I think as we see in everyone in this country in Indonesia that the energy picture is also important in this and for countries like Indonesia to make progress in addressing greenhouse gas emissions from the forestry sector will not only help in achieving its INDC but will also provide opportunities to meet its ambitious electricity generation targets as well. So again, considering these policies in a holistic way I think is very important for governments and there's a range of benefits that can come from this both in terms of environmental governance and economic governance so it is a very broad issue. The second point I'd like to make and I've kind of elevated this in my own thinking over hearing people speak but it is the importance of engaging with people and the people's participation and with the private sector and I think in many ways we need to put people first in this. I think again the good thing about the Paris Agreement taking a broader perspective of the forestry issues and the potentials here means that we are thinking about broader development policy as well. Without the buy-in of small holders of people in these areas without the buy-in of the private sector it makes it very difficult to achieve what we're aiming to do. I know if we look around the world today ordinary people are often talking about the various economic policies that are being developed for them and at times expressing frustration that they're not seeing the benefits of economics or I think what's called trickle-down economics. I'd like to introduce the term trickle-down environmentalism as well. I think sometimes if we are prioritising environmental issues and climate change we're asking people to see the benefits, trickle-down to them of those environmental actions. I think again by putting the people first in that we need to very clearly demonstrate that by mainstreaming climate change and environmental policies and forestry policies into our national development policies show very clearly what the benefits are to the people in those areas and we get much stronger buy-in and much more success of our policies. So I think that that is the second aspect I'd like to emphasise and know that's a focus of this conference and with later sessions. My third point and it's only three of five is around a coordinated approach. Again having so many different policy areas involved is fundamentally important for governments to coordinate both horizontally and vertically the different ministries that are responsible for the different policy areas and also engage at different levels of government from the national level down to the provincial levels and local levels. I think that's fundamentally important. And also have coordination for international partners that would like to be involved in our case Australia, Norway, other countries that we're still engage in this area and cooperate. Fourthly for the international community that looks to engage in this and to say a little bit about Australia's approach we are an approach where we're looking at partnerships with countries certainly through our development cooperation program in Indonesia which deals with economic governance and with environmental governance. We are looking at an economic partnership and what we are aiming to do is to leverage the resources that are available. So our approach is one of providing technical assistance and technical advice that can work with countries in the region to leverage their own resources which in many cases are very significant, multilateral resources and also resources from the private sector and local communities. So I'd like to emphasize that point of technical partnership in order to leverage resources that are available. In this sector Australia has considerable expertise in monitoring, reporting and evaluation in the MRV and to strengthen the transparency systems and we're very pleased that our minister this morning was able to reiterate that we will be looking at a further cooperation with Indonesia on its in-casts on its national carbon accounting scheme and also through other global initiatives such as the GFII, the Global Forest Observations Initiative. We hope that again we can help in that MRV and transparency side with governments that are interested and more broadly strongly supporting sharing of information again in our own instance through our In Emissions Reduction Fund which has developed a number of methodologies for reducing emissions including from the land and agriculture sector and restricting those in legislation. And finally my last point is probably just around speed and urgency of action that clearly we don't want to move precipitously quickly just doing things for the sake of doing things but clearly this isn't an important challenge we do need to deliver on our INDCs and I think for the Red Plus activities we've been talking about what we can do and we've been developing ideas but there's lots of new institutions that are being developed around the world to address climate change. We've got the GCF now up and running. We have also the World Bank and other multilateral funds. I think it is important that Red Plus activities stamp their mark as it were that there will be competition for funding, there will be other sectors that will be developing activities and I think it is important that start to develop those solid methodologies that will continue to attract finance from those resources that are available that really wish to take those opportunities that are there because it is also a competitive environment so I think that pace of operating is very important. I think those are some things I'd like to emphasize things. Excellent thank you very much Justin. I'd really like to come back in a few minutes to your points about putting people first and I like very much the points, your last point about the urgency. I think many people have talked about Red Plus being one of the last best chances for forestry if you will. We've not always performed so well in the past and we have a great opportunity now. We need to perform and deliver on these expectations while the opportunity exists. Could I skip down to Henning and invite your perceptions and perspectives to start with? Yes, sorry. Dear Delegates, Friends, Honourable Ministers, Norway was one of the first countries in the world to ratify the Paris Agreement and our strong supporters of committed international cooperation to make sure we do not cross the one and a half centigrade threshold. Since 2010, Norway has had a big climate and forest cooperation with Indonesia which as you are all aware of has the third largest rainforest in the world after the Amazon and Congo basins where we also have cooperation and the point being that we need to continue to work on verifiable emission reductions and we are very happy to see that these issues are taking into the Paris Declaration, Paris Agreement. The Norwegian Prime Minister and the Norwegian Minister for Climate and Environment have both visited Indonesia recently and both reiterated that this pledge of approximately one billion US dollars to Indonesia in this area is standing. While cooperation between governments are of invaluable importance in order to ensure the goals of the Paris Agreement are met, it's clearly we need the help of the private sector and that they are in the front line to these contributions. The World Economic Forum conducted a survey among 750 global experts earlier this year and the environment came out as the top challenge for the world economy. This is something that I'm sure everyone in this room is already aware of but the survey shows that it's also now becoming truth and something that the world as a whole is getting aware of which should make it a decent time to ensure that the private sector gets on the rolling and pulling. I think that all that is to voluntarily improve practices and reduce emissions to serve credit. And we as representatives of governments then need to make sure that these pledges can work more easily. Whether that is by reducing red tape or in other way making sure that any voluntary improvement of practice does not end up costing the businesses more than it would have cost to continue as usual. And private business and private sector stands for about nine out of ten jobs in developing countries and without a continued economic growth and raising people out of poverty the people will not accept to be a part of and working in favor of improving the environment and working for climate. For my own part being Norway's deputy representative to ASEAN I would also like to highlight the potential of this organization as an actor also in the fight against deforestation and climate change. ASEAN's ten member countries have a considerable amount of forests which do not only work as enormous greenhouse gas sinks but which also provides a place to live and a source of income for indigenous people, a habitat for innumerable species of animals and plants. The ten countries might have different approaches and motivation for addressing the issues of climate change and deforestation but ASEAN could evolve into an even more important arena for these discussions and get the centrality that I think that they deserve. Even if the slogan on climate, at least back home, has for years been think globally, act locally, I do believe that there is a very clear advantage to including a corporate regionally into that. It might reduce the slogans catching us a little bit but without working together there is no way that we're going to reach these goals. So thank you. Thank you very much. I noticed the next session panel's discussion will include the strong industry and private sector focus so I'm sure they will pick up on many of these aspects and look forward to hearing their perspectives. And now finally I'd like to invite Peter Holmgren to share his perspectives. He also always has some very interesting and thought provoking ideas so he saved them from his opening keynote addressed so we can still keep on the edge of our chairs. Okay, thanks Pat for raising the expectations. This panel is a bit interesting. Four out of five are based in Indonesia at Jakarta and four of us are northern males so I don't know what that says about diversity but let's move on. Now my country, my home country is actually Sweden and I want to refer to a survey that was made not so long ago about the importance of forests and why forests are important and the Swedish citizens answered this question. They got three choices. The highest mark was for mitigating climate change. 78% thought that this was an important function of forests. Only about 40% thought that forest products and the forest industry was important. And this is Sweden one of the most intensively managed forest countries and the forest industry since many, many years. Now to me this represents both a tremendous success and a tremendous risk. It's of course a tremendous success that we've managed to up the awareness among the public that climate change is important and serious and that forests play a big role in it. But on the other hand we've also reached a point where the climate change debate around forests sort of dominates so much so that other benefits from the forest are less visible and this is the risk in my view and this is also where I think this discussion is going at the moment. I'm coming back to my thoughts on integration here and if you read the Paris Agreement it actually starts off by a lot of text around in the context of sustainable development. This is a key formulation that appears several times in the first paragraphs, first articles. And conversely the sustainable development framework includes a goal on climate change. This is good integration in my view and it is an integration that hasn't always been there because within the UN the different institutions and processes have also acted in isolation and we now see some movements towards more integration at the political level. This is good and I think this should also spill over on how we handle forests and climate change and forest and sustainable development. So if we then zoom in on forests and the Paris Agreement we are there is a kind of for us as a research organization and for many others out there that want to make a difference in the world. We are in a bit of a difficult stage at the moment because a lot of the efforts, I think Pat alluded to this in his introduction, a lot of the efforts leading up to last year's agreements on sustainable development and the climate were so focused that we in a way perhaps lost perspective of things. And if we talk about forests and I'm part of this I think we over the past decade if in any international debate forests have been equivalent to red at least in the developing world context. This has been good again it's been a tremendous success to raise the issues of deforestation of forest degradation to this level we've had heads of states meetings where this has been debated fiercely. I remember the first time I met Howard was actually in the UN General Assembly where we had 14 heads of states and heads of government debating red. It's fantastic. But now we are beyond those agreements and we need to get back to that perspective. How do we now integrate and how do we provide a holistic approach to forests and climate change? One way perhaps to look at it is that instead of talking about co-benefits of climate action we should see that it is the climate benefits that are the co-benefits of sustainable development actions. Then we begin to approach a holistic and integrated approach to forest and climate change. The Paris Agreement also talks a lot more about it's a lot more global in nature than earlier agreements and protocols on forest. Fair enough the Kyoto Protocol was of course addressing Annex One countries. So those are some of my starting points and I'd like to end this by coming to three areas that I think we could take where we could take things forward. The first one is to move the debate and the action out of the preservation corner. I'm the first to argue that we need to conserve forest worldwide to a much larger extent than we do today but we need to get the perspective of other benefits and uses of the forests as well. The second is again integrate that I mentioned that already we should perhaps look at climate benefits from forestry and landscapes as co-benefits of all those other things we need to achieve and that might be a more palatable approach to the stakeholders on the ground as well. At least we should explore that. And the third one is and and I think this is perhaps something that has been disappearing over the past decade. I think we need to go back and embrace and enhance the use of wood and biomass in our economy including for energy purposes. Otherwise we will perhaps not realize the potentials that the photosynthesis gives us in terms of providing for all sorts of goods and benefits and value change that we need. And actually I was pleasantly surprised to see some exhibitions of wood products at this conference outside and that's a good sign in my view. Again this does not say that the climate change threat is real. We need serious action to deal with it. But I think the movement now is perhaps to see that in a bigger perspective. Thank you. Thank you very much Peter. I think everybody realizes that the real action in all of this has to take place at the country level and down on the ground and international organizations and national governments and other organizations have invested a lot of effort already in red readiness and preparation for moving forward including FAO and other partners under the UN Red Program. I'd like to ask especially Ibu Nur who struggles with this at the national level and maybe then Peter because I know C4 has looked a lot at the experience with some of the initial red piloting. What really is the one or two biggest hurdles that you are facing right now to moving forward at the country level or getting things moving on the ground? Maybe you have more than one or two but maybe you can highlight the most serious ones that you consider. Yeah I think learning from our experience the most challenging part in our case is preparing the funding instrument to enable us tapping the finance that are available at the international level. Through our bilateral cooperation with Norway actually both of us are struggling on how we could have the best and the most feasible institutional setting for red plus finance in our country but we have to work on the existing regulations and we know that there are a number of conflicting arrangements that we find there. So we really are struggling and thankfully that Norway then from time to time trying to understand how we are struggling with that situation and now we are preparing the draft regulation and hopefully we could solve that's really this is the the most harder things. The second is about the technical and methodological aspect not because we don't have an expert there but how the methodological instrument that we are preparing prepared by expert could be implemented by the practitioner in the in the region later on in the implementation. I think this too. Thank you. I think these are our very valuable perspectives and I also have been a bit frustrated over the years that we may be making things too complicated and in the case of Indonesia we have financing sitting there and and not only in Indonesia but potential to access from GEF and now Green Climate Fund but sometimes we make things more difficult and complicated than they need to be in order to motivate action so I think this is one of the issues that is coming to the forefront. Peter I know that C4 has done reviews of some of the experience not only in Indonesia but elsewhere on this experience to date so have you come up with some commonalities or some key hurdles that countries are struggling with? No thanks we've been entrusted by by many including Australia and Norway to work on research on on the the red opportunities around the world and we've worked both at shall we say higher policy levels and looked at the the institutional arrangements and we looked at the capacities for MRV we've also looked at the local level and seen how do efforts pan out if you apply them in in a community or a province. I won't refer to all of these different results that that would be it's been a major part of C4's work over the past seven or eight years and hopefully it's been useful for the for the governments and other stakeholders that need to make decisions. I think it's it's fair to say that a commonality in in our results particularly when we look at the impact locally is that the difficulties to both integrate the red effort and at the same time keep it separate so that it fits into the mechanism that's being designed is a major area of tension integrating it because how do you make it a significant part of reality for people on the ground it is it is not obvious that the the benefits of of a red action is so significant in comparison with all the other benefits that that need to be harnessed and harvested and this on the separation issue it's obvious that it isn't as clear cut as it may sound in the negotiation stage that you can separate out the actions that lead to mitigation and therefore can be accounted for and therefore can be paid for when you go down to the local scale it all becomes somewhat blurred on what is what and therefore again both of these observations are arguments for finding moralistic approaches and better ways to integrate action with with the rural economy at at large so those are those are some experiences i'd like to also take one example and that that's the unfortunate fire and hay situation we've had repeatedly in this region but particularly last year and it's an example both of the integration and separation aspects integration because when when the fire started and the haze was choking people in singapore and elsewhere the news media first reacted by saying that oh this is a serious threat to the climate but it took some time before the reporting and the awareness also talked about millions of people having health hazards thousands of people being being ill from the smoke businesses suffering and and agriculture outputs being being reduced so the point here is that yes it was it had effect on on the global climate but it also had a lot of other effects on on the local situations so i think that this is this is an example that argues for taking a more holistic approach indonesia is making lots of efforts in this area and it includes the climate change issues but it also includes all the other sustainable development aspects of how the resources are managed i'll stop there thank you okay i'd like to come back to justin's point about putting people first and i think give henning and justin particular opportunity to comment on this but there have been various concerns in and some experience in some places with initial red plus activities or planning that tend to perhaps threaten the the the livelihoods or the life of indigenous people or local people in general and there's concern of the the potential negative impacts of some of these climate change actions so negotiations have put in place certain requirements for safeguards and this is a concern of how to make these effective as well so maybe the two of you could comment on this and i think it also ties into peter's comment about turning things around and looking at the climate change benefits being the co-benefits really if we're really putting people first thank you again patrick just on the climate change as a co-benefit and i think i very much agree with with peter there of again what we've talked about more broadly around also mainstreaming climate change policies and environmental policies into many other government policies particularly economic policies i guess of course now it's a caveat that goes that goes out having to say it specifically but of course you don't want to lose the lose the climate change in that i guess there's always a risk that when you do make it second as a co-benefit that somehow along the way you might lose the focus there or you might lose the importance of it as an issue and i think it goes out saying that that's certainly not the intention and so i think that's just worth worth noting in terms of the putting people first again peter i think has drawn very relevant examples on how that has resonance particularly in the smoke case issue of last year i think what's very relevant is the next discussion around financial models of some of the activities that are being developed clearly the financial the livelihood systems that are being developed be they for small holders be they for the private sector where they're coming from whether and ideally they'll come from the private sector with cooperation of others but they clearly need to be as profitable as what is occurring at the moment so i think they need very sound financial basis because clearly if if lands are of certain types of it necessarily being taken out of production or alternative livelihoods are being proposed they need to have that same clearly profitable and and financial benefit so i think that that discussion is is fundamentally important i do think that much of it there's much focus on the on the multilateral funds and there's focus on on grants those funds are important and again as i said i think those funds are important for leveraging for for doing R and D but ultimately i think the the financial systems that are being developed again will come from the private sector will come from people themselves and so i think that that cooperation is very important but they need to have a very we need to have a very sound sustainable financial as well as environmental basis and i think you will need to tap into those much more extensive sources of funding that are available in the private sector Henning yeah i agree and the idea of putting people people first is it is it's so obvious that it's sometimes easy to forget and and it comes from both sides and both from Norway as someone pledging money to a cause and to the people the indigenous people living in the forests being afraid of their income and their livelihoods and their their places of living becoming conserved and that they are not going to be allowed to be a part of the growing economy i think that there are definitely options and possibilities of finding a way of making sure that it is income for people making sure that the people actually living in the forests will see the benefits of the work that is done and at the same time showing to the people that ultimately say pay taxes in order to put funds available to see that this these funds are being used for the benefit not only of some high theoretical goal of combating climate change which unfortunately to a lot of people seems a bit out in the open and away there but instead showing that this is something that can benefit individuals and it can benefit everyone making sure that the work that we do that we do not put up a perfect ideal option as the only option finding options that are practical and that can be achieved is more important in order to solve the issues than to find the ideal option that will never work for anyone except one party anyway thank you so far i haven't heard anybody mentioned this morning i don't think and not on this panel for sure the word adaptation and there was a significant shift in the emphasis coming out of the Paris agreement and certainly reflected in the NDCs to put a lot more attention on adaptation and maybe i can invite any of the panelists who want to comment on how we move forward with adaptation but especially ibu noor i think coming from the perspective of a developing country most of the developing countries have emphasized the importance of support in adapting to climate change yeah i think from Paris agreement actually we have a strengthened political momentum there on the adaptation issues and in fact we also have loss and damage there and another issue is if in the past adaptation was considered as a national issue now become the global issues and we have a global goals indonesia is one among countries that include adaptation component in the NDCs especially because as archipelagic countries we are and also located in the ring of fire we are really vulnerable to climate change and other natural catastrophes and we also see the importance of the role of ocean both on adaptation and mitigation i think why i didn't mention about adaptation in the presentation in fact that's because it's too much complied to the guidance of the question that suity address by panel in fact when we talk about the red plus we have a lot of non-carbon benefits and if you look at there many adaptation related the benefits that we could get so i think from time to time we could not separate the adaptation and mitigation issue in this this is exactly what i was hoping you would bring out that the that these can go hand in hand the benefits from good forest management and utilization and things like agroforestry and sustainable land management are certainly a part of both mitigation as well as adaptation or can be any other panel members want to comment on that before i ask the audience to pose some questions peter yeah this is really an interesting topic because if we now talk about climate action in the context of sustainable development then the whole adaptation debate kind of moves into that direction too because what is adaptation if it isn't improving the the opportunities for improved well-being and livelihoods and then you end up in a situation where it's difficult to say what is adaptation to climate change and what is beyond that investment in sustainable development of course if you discuss it in a convention context it becomes more an issue of funding and losses and damage compensations and and and so on but if you if you look at it in the in the broader perspective it might be different like to refer to report from the world bank's office on disaster risk reduction that came up came out not so long ago they had calculated the increased costs due to increased risks when it came to water supply and they had looked specifically at the north african near east region and they had looked at the very various set of issues they had looked at climate change they had looked at infrastructure they had looked at consumption patterns they had looked at other other aspects and then calculated that the cost will be about 1.6 trillion i don't know over what time period but that's not the point here the point is that when this study was referred to in media only the climate change factor was mentioned and then and and the headline became 1.6 trillion is needed to to deal with the climate change risks so we are again living in a blurred reality here what what are we talking about when we talk about adaptation and are we even going so far as to say that climate change is the problem rather than lack of public investments in infrastructure and water supply system that would have been needed anyway so it is a very interesting debate there is no doubt that adaptation need is needed and that investments in in in forest and landscape can help that but we also from a shall we say more theoretical perspective need need to analyze this thank you okay thank you now could i invite some questions or very brief comments from the audience please we have microphones placed strategically if somebody jump up and get things started give us your name and where you're from and who you want to direct your question to yes please in the back good to have someone start and then please a few others follow hello okay my name is Muhammad Yusof I'm from my Chobhi Center, so first let me congratulate our Honorable Minister for the successful organizations of this summit today so I've got a few questions here so the first the first one I want to highlight here is the issue of illegal logging I didn't hear anything from the three panels four panels they mentioning illegal logging that contributing to the climate change so perhaps how this illegal logging incorporated incorporated into the climate change initiative secondly I'm at national perspective we have been putting our forest aside for the sake of climate change and we are managing our forest in a deficit way because we get revenue from our forest just a little for the sake of environmental protection so how this can be become global issue because I like the word the first set by the lady paddle day national issue is not become a national it's a global issue now so can I put this national issue into the global issue that managing it for us is something that we have to consider it's a government burden to us so is there any any program that this climate change summit in Paris consider the amount that we have to pay every year to manage our forest for the sake of climate change so and third question is there any economic program that to support us to do our forest in the in a way that we can also support our national vision 2035 that we have to have support our economic growth so this is very important for us we cannot just wall up our forest for the sake of economic growth we have to consider the global communities also we have to give good environment to them so this is our our good national policy that we have that we have to be good in our neighbor we have to be good in with the global communities we are giving good environment to them so any any return that we can get from the global communities and all the forest to maintain protect our forest for the sake of the global communities I just discussed with my friend here from the PMO about the the the Paris agreement what I had is just carbon trading they focus on very very poor country only so to me that's not very fair for us because said developed countries their preference is to the very very poor country so so so my questions here is there any opportunities that developing country also have a chance to have a carbon trading in the future and the most disappointing statement that I heard from them is that we are categorized as developing countries once come to funding we are categorized into developed countries developed country so to me this is a double standard so perhaps this panel can so for us in a general context and also a global context thank you very much okay thank you many questions posed there I tossed to any of the panel members who would like to respond some of it was commentary some of it was question maybe somebody want to take the first one in because quite a lot has been already initiated to deal with illegal logging as part of the part of the issues or any of the other Ibu Nur I think you're you'd like to come any yeah many question yeah first of all illegal logging I think you know that there are there have been a lot of efforts both at the national and regional as well as international level at the national level for example that the effort of Indonesia I just give example with the certification scheme or with SVL scheme assuring the the legality and sustainability of the origin of the timber that we exported and exported to other countries I think in the context of climate change I think because we talk about the climate change here what is the the impact of illegal logging we know in the in the forest will increase the forest degradation and vice versa the improving the governance tackling with illegal logging is part of the resolving or mitigating the climate change I think one more that I want to respond actually this about the carbon trading things I think for about the developing countries in the past with trading with offset the mechanism we sell the whole part of the credit overseas we have we didn't have any commitment in the past now I think that we need to to consider is how far we will go for that the trading with offset the scheme as we also have commitment under our NDC I think the issue of Brunei I can I can see that because we have experience for example but we we don't have I don't have an answer also maybe at the panel have answer when we get a sponsorship with our event we cannot find in Singapore and Brunei because it's considered as develop developed countries among us so I think the question to the panellistic about the return from international communities I think if we look at the how we interpret the Paris agreement learning from our our experience how our minister translating but Paris agreement we have international responsibility but also national needs where we have to do something for our national effort international community I think I see that yes of course there are a lot of climate finance available but that's not always easy to access that there are that's that's the issue not the issue I think the a fair treatment in international trading scheme I think that's also one thing that we have a lot of straddling especially for developing countries I think this issues there are many for at the panel thank you thank you