Hello Judith. Hi, how are you today? I'm very well. Thank you and yourself. Likewise. Hi John. Hello. So we're the early birds. We are, yeah. It's only a minute. Usually Jerry's on pretty quick. Yeah. But I know he was. We're all busy. Yeah. I'm probably going to turn my video off because I was up late slept late and have an English muffin to eat. I was going to run and see if I could make my, my, my special non caffeinated coffee where we start. Well, feel free, you know, turn off video and do what they need to while we listen because I mean there's usually a lot of us on the call. Greetings. Good evening, Jerry. Hi. Hey there. How's everybody. Great. It's a sunny day in Minnesota. Love that there's soul snow everywhere. Yeah. Well, yes, but it's actually melting. It's going to get up into the mid 30s today. For us it is. We had this Arctic purge a week or so ago and it got down to minus 25 actual little on windchill. So that's cold. That's cold. That's way cold. The coldest I've ever walked through I think was in Minneapolis when I went for a push conference that was held midwinter. I was running from like the car to the conference center, which was the museum in like minus 30 or something like that. Yeah, I figured okay now I can say I've done that. The speed of frostbite is intense. Yeah. And somebody actually posted on my Facebook page that they unwittingly while they will bond and do something outside. They ended up with frostbite on their knee. They were doing something on the car tire or something. And they weren't even thinking about transmission of cold through fabric. Really macerated. John, could you mute your mic. I talked to a Mountie one time and I asked him what the difference was because he worked up at 120 below. And he said at 120 below your eyeballs freeze and you have to turn your head. Lovely. Yeah, yeah. That is crazy. Yeah, you don't, you don't live out long. Maybe we should just kind of at some point do a mute all so that we lose the background. So I'm not host here Hank is, and so I can't ask john, I can't mute john's line, nor can I think, nor can I mute everybody I think let's find out. Yeah, I don't have affordances to do that. See if that works. No, that doesn't work. John john john Kelly come in john Kelly. I just put it in the regular chat. Yeah, exactly. I guess we're probably going to use matter most anyway. Yes, please. Let us use the matter most chat. We'll link to it here in the group. Copy link. I haven't signed up for the matter most chat is that just a matter of username and password Jerry. It's a matter of most. If you I think that Pete correct me if I'm wrong if you click on the link I just put in the zoom chat that should take you to a place where you can request to register. Have you used matter most before you do you have a matter most. Most is like slack, only more open source. And so if you click on that link it'll let you register and then once you find your way into matter most you can then find the channel that I put here which is the OGM calls channel on our server. And that will bring you in here.  So Julian that seems to me like a natural lead to that we should start with you and Kevin because Kevin usually has a standing call a little early as well. So let's go. Julian Kevin Scott for our check ins. Sunday interface. Many people here are familiar with the brain on Sunday I interface that to Neil for Jay which is a graph database. And this means that instead of being locked into what the brain offers you for your data management you can now use a real grown up graph database. However the tools to do that are a whole different category that you would find something like brain, but it opens up the possibilities to do that. And actually I put this to my own visualizer also and plan to experiment with more brains, coming along. That is awesome and Julian sent me a couple of videos that he did with this sort of new animation.  New frontiers a gill could you meet your phone as well. And actually could everybody mute who's not jumping in. John we had a little bit of ambient noise from your, from your side before you came back to the, to the mic. Cool. And so, Julian I think maybe at some point we need to figure out how to do a demo either with my data or climate wherever something like that and find a find a subset, or a thing that is easy to illustrate. The power of the visualizations you're doing. Yes. That sounds awesome. And yours is one of the first, I would say, experiment years would be one of the first experiments on where we're heading which is taking some extracted brain data and starting to do alternate user interfaces to it. Like how do we you know how else might we access all this data and all the, all the metadata is in it. So yeah, it's going to be up to us though because you know in the spirit of free Jerry's brain I it's highly unlikely that the brain calm is going to implement anything that's going to let people stick their own data back into the brain. This is very likely unfortunately true. So let's go Kevin Scott Bentley. Thanks. I put a link in both the matter most and the other thing of a thing I'm doing been working on the racial wealth gap for friends and family funding. And we've got a thing where we can engage kids across race and class and economics over time with an annuity revenue thing that we're cranking out and we're doing some presentations to faith based groups around it. One thing is that when the money comes back in the affluent kids are asked to sit down with the kids in the neighborhoods that they've invested in and decide what to do with the money that will, you know, keep coming in. That also that it be put into something that won't come happen before five years so they, they're both basically you're giving kids money to design the future together so it's kind of a cool thing that can continue a long time and then one other thing that's happening working with Pete and some on some indigenous. And then back using blockchain.  So, when I'm reached out to me and some of them and so we're trying to see if we can use the blockchain to preserve indigenous land and we've got something where it's, you know, kind of guy becomes a corporation that they are then trustees of on their land so we're going to see if that works and just anyway pretty interesting thing. Appreciate Pete's help on it. Super. Thank you Kevin. What's the frequency I mean it sounds like you're trying to build longer term relationships and conversations between the investors and the investees for example, do you have like a rhythm of communications for those they get to kind of know each other as humans. Yeah, well that's that's the thing and we're setting up this fun and we're and and as the money comes in it will come in annually over 25 years from the first investment if you do it that second year it'll just keep coming in. And so we're saying to the kids, you know, let's get, you know, your me missionary Baptist black youth group together with it you know the Presbyterian kids and and say the money's coming let's design a future. And because it's long term we can think about things like you know, degradation, well in particular is a thing on degradation and a creek here in a black neighborhood called the nasty branch, you know, you can think long term about some things that way and and so they'll work together to design, but then they'll get different new money every year so they'll have to read redo their design, but each time you're supposed to look at least five years out. That was really cool. Thank you. It should be fun and you know when you do that kind of thing and the kids are putting some money and the grandparents usually say well I put $3 down because you know, they're putting other money but but the other part is that his need is a cross race across class designing the future. That's the simple part of it and a little bit of money from a lot of people that turns into long term conversations and planning and sounds just awesome. Yeah, yeah, and then we're solving the racial wealth gap by investing in friends and family funding for entrepreneurs who don't have a rich uncle who can't get into the loan funds and so you know then it's solving that part of the thing. Thanks Kevin. Scott Bentley Gil. Hey everyone. I wasn't sure what to share today. So, two things. The first one was, I discovered something called a Petri net, P E T R I like Petri dish. Petri net. It is a graphical way of diagramming a workflow based on states and transitions. That's basically all it is. And the way I saw it Todd was states of the traffic light, and yet it turns into this extremely robust, massive way to look at workflows and yet it's just simple and obvious to look at so Petri nets. I'll put some links to that in the, in the chat because I thought that was a really interesting thing. The second thing is, I read an article called pace layering. And it's a really interesting concept that I'd never heard of before, but the gist of it is that, if you're looking at the layers and complexity, considered length of time. So, for example, fashion and art, commerce, infrastructure, governance, culture, nature. It's one example and, and the idea is that fast learns slow remembers fast and small instructs the slow and big by innovation by shaking things up by the churn by the, you know that kind of thing. And it controls the fast and small by keeping some stability adding constraints adding constancy and fast gets all the attention slow has all the power. And it's this really interesting dynamic of why they're why they exist together again I'm going to put that in a in the chat, but the big takeaway for me was this idea of a shock absorber. It's, it's the thing that's small and moving very quickly. So that this thing doesn't go like this all the time. It's this so that the whole system can move around and it needs the shock absorber to be able to mediate between the constant change and the new. But it needs the stability of the big thing otherwise it's, it's like this all the time. But for me personally, what are my shock absorbers. What are the ways that I'm interacting and not letting this shake my whole system and, but, but can inform that. So it was just an interesting concept that I've just just learned about so. I think the pace layer thing comes from Stuart brand and probably predates him. And as you were describing it right now it made me think is that how automatic transmissions work. There are basically plates that are in a transmission liquid and when the plates move and enter and move next to each other they start then engaging and moving so you don't need to replace the clutch action.  But it seems like there's there's, we've actually mechanically produced some things that work this way. It was it was Stuart brand and the the second part about it that was interesting was how it was presented. So when, if you happen to click on the article and look at it. It was a really interesting way of saying, here's the topic, here's the summary. Here's the, here's the body of the of my proposition. And then at the end, there was a section of here's where this came from. I learned about this at this time and then 1990 I did this 1970 that's where it came from and so I thought it was really, really well done. Sweet, thank you and I, I had it in my brain because I put the link in here, but I didn't have it connected to useful thinking frameworks and models. So I made that link because it is a very useful thinking framework for those kinds of things. So thanks. So let's go Bentley Vincent Ken. Hello everyone. So on a personal note, I finally have a paying client. And that means, so I do for those that don't know I do web and mobile app development and and I solve problems. And I use code when necessary. And no code tools to.  And the great thing about that also is that I think I met this person through OGM. So their project is very OGM me for a client in Sweden and stuff so it's using Miro connecting at the air table and so helping to visually display data. So you can imagine that that's very OGM so that's great. And then the my other OGM a project golly bot. No real status update there. For those that haven't heard it's a, it's a character that reduces divisiveness and misinformation on the internet by having a evidence based discussion over Twitter. So it sounds like a contradiction in terms doesn't it. A little suspect but I, yeah, you can, you can follow the link from Twitter and see golly's brain. Just like kind of like Jerry's brain except golly is trying to figure out a contentious issue. And you can see all the evidence and the score that golly gives it and how each evidence piece of evidence impacts the top score. So kind of an invite to this group is anyone who thinks that that's an interesting project, or has time to give me a review and feedback. And I'd be happy to swap my time as you know, a technologist to help with any technology issues. So just reach out to me Bentley and Bentley Davis.com is email. I will do so Bentley that I absolutely relate to that. Thank you so much. Nice one. Sounds great and and I think that chat bots are just underappreciated underestimated underused, because they're inexpensive tireless. People seem to relate to them very easily very quickly like there's not a big technology mountain to climb over all that kind of stuff. We'll put the link in the in the matter most chat as well. Oh yeah. Yeah, that's okay. But really, really glad you're experimenting with this that's a very cool thing. And then the natural language parts of this must be must be fun to mess with. I'm actually skipping AI and natural language for now, and it's going to be processed by me and hired social media staff, because it is, it is at a level that the technology is just not there yet. And actually, I don't know if the human brain is there yet. So we'll see. Because I want to take, you know, 50 people come back to me saying, you know, taking the vaccine is going to cause infertility. And I have to figure out a way to phrase that in a way that's not telling people a misinformation. So right now it's mostly manual except for the math of showing how gullible it makes its analysis of the data. But eventually putting some AI and natural language processing speed up the process. And might you like one of the things you can envision doing is routing people towards some kind of statistical literacy. Like how to how to get kids to eat their broccoli that isn't actually like a statistical literacy package but rather a game or some some interesting way to realize that there is an incidence of bad incidents. I think I got that right around vaccinations but it pales in comparison to what happens when you actually get the disease and therefore, you know, there's risks on both sides but check this out. I'm hoping that'll be kind of intuitive when someone's going through the content because they'll see how goalie bot analyzes the risks. And they'll develops the score so we'll see an intuition saying oh yeah some people have gotten sick when they take it. Or the, you know, that yeah that so you'll see how that weighs in and the total thing and get into the math and see why so yeah I'm hoping it'll be one of those things that as people explore it. Their statistical literacy will go up and also their ability to interest be introspective on their own.  It builds humility right because if you could say oh this is simple and then you go in there like oh I didn't think of that oh I didn't think of that oh I didn't think of that then it's like oh maybe I need to not yell at people on Twitter when they say something that I disagree. It's interesting I just recently got a shingle shot Madden sort of got the shot in a while I guess I got my flu shot but they don't they don't explain the flu shot every year. So this is a new protocol where my doctor sort of held up a chart that had a little diagram of 100 people and then little dots on this is this is sort of how many cases blah blah blah blah blah. These are the kinds of reactions and it was a visualization of what might happen, like, oh this is interesting and new. That's great. So clearly they're trying to figure out some way to get people to understand how things play out. Thanks so much Bentley. I lost my lost my cue. Vincent Ken Judy. Hi everyone. So this has been a super productive week for myself, and especially on catalyst. So a few people who are all I had a meeting with Peter Mark Antoine, and we're able to figure out how to basically pull out a CSV from the brain to be able to import into air table. So I've been playing around with some test data and air table, and next week I'll have some exciting like stuff to show from that. I just kind of figured out how to with Bentley's help, kind of dive into the air table script so I could definitely recommend Bentley service he's taught me so much this week especially with kind of like transitioning from no code low code to like starting to code, and basically figuring out how to like pull metadata from URLs and then put that back into air table automatically and so kind of being able to get a lot more like rich data out of, out of links. And so yeah, I'm working on some experiments with like resource lists that should be done within the week or so. And then also I had done a key collab a little demo of the kind of like community aspect that I'm working on with catalyst and on if anyone wants to kind of dive in deeper Monday at to Eastern right before the key collab is going to be kind of doing a little kind of like demo Q&A. Before kind of launching anything just to kind of get feedback. And that'll be on the shared calendar as well. And besides that have been involved with the system innovators club on Clubhouse with Charles and others. We had our third like consecutive meeting which basically in Clubhouse lingo that lets you apply to be like an official club. So that also is kind of picking up and there's like more systems innovators emerging, which is really cool kind of like starting to come together. Just like system sinkers and from lots of different countries and backgrounds so might see some of those people kind of coming into. Yeah, so that's my update. I'm going to riff a tiny bit on your experiences in Clubhouse just for everybody. Yes, as Pete types his clubhouse gateway drug. Love it. You want to just talk about what it's like for you and what's what's worked and what hasn't. Sure. Yeah, so. So I've been in like, there are some Clubhouse rooms where like you join a room, and then a few random people are strangers pop in, and you is kind of just like a serendipitous. It's like a serendipity engine like you just have these like spontaneous conversations with random people but most of the people on there. At least like because it's through this like follow graph I guess the people are kind of like interested in similar things in you and so in some ways it's helping you find people that are really just like you but also from like all over the world and different experiences. It's not based off content. It's mostly just based off of what rooms that you usually go in. And so I've had some really like small conversations just about like going deep into like systemic racism like similar to the conversations we have here. And then on the other side of the spectrum is like, I was invited to co moderate a room on like what comes after capitalism, and we had 500 people show up and then we're moderating a room of like 500 people with like 40 people on stage, all wanting to jump in to talk about like kind of future economic systems. And so that's kind of like the spectrum of conversations. I even like jumped into a wrap freestyle room where people were going around like 30 seconds each and like had like a rap beat in the background and they were just like freestyle and that was really cool.  And yeah that got me super energized. So I feel like Clubhouse is kind of like conference vibes for anyone who like loves going to conferences and networking but like with like different rooms that you can go into and talk to people but like all the time on your phones but really addicting and what you said really like that that's not been placed something which is one of the gaps in virtual events is the hallways like like we're not bumping into people like having been slammed into zoom during pandemic means the random conversations are completely missing. So it feels to me like like Clubhouse is filling that space actually quite nicely because the audio is high quality. The interface is brutally simple like there's not much there. I can't figure out how to do half the stuff because there's like no affordances. But but it's kind of doing that in some interesting ways. Sorry to interrupt you. Anything else you did you want to say about it. Yeah yeah no I mean I love the idea of like yeah it's like there's a hallway. When you first open the app it's like the only thing there it's a hallway with a bunch of rooms and then you pick which ones you go into and I think. Yeah like this week Bill Gates was in a room and there's like overflow rooms from like people wanting to talk about Bill Gates talking in other rooms so it's really interesting. And there's a few very like niche clubs that I found out about that are really really like it's great just seeing the paradigms kind of come together like I feel like the last few weeks has been me realizing the paradigm of there being multiple paradigms because on Clubhouse you have like all these people intersecting one another right so like like the tendency because we're if we're in these calls every Thursday and we're like mostly in just these calls we're going to tend to start to kind of like coalesce around similar world views and there might be other groups that are doing the same thing but they're like coalescing around like a different basin of attraction like and so it's interesting then seeing those people talk to each other now and seeing kind of like these very like the broadest perspectives possible I feel like. Love that and I, I'm, I love evanescent things and yet I don't like Snapchat I don't like things that banished because when somebody says something just look brilliant. I just want to save it and put it right next to all the other good stuff that was great like that so it's just weird for me to see so much good evanescent conversation just happening to so anybody else have strong feelings about clubhouse. John. Yes, very similar I agree with everything. Vincent said it's it's even deeper and weirder than than might come across initially yesterday morning I was driving home from overnight and there was a philosophy room, and they were reading Plato's Republic together. And in the room you had a lot of Middle Eastern's, I mean, well Balkans actually had Greeks, people from Croatia, whatever, and they introduced this strange theory that I had never heard that there's a higher amount of the and or fall genes in the Balkans, which explains a certain amount of their, whatever you want to call it their tendency to get into conflicts. It's just like this very strange thing. But among the strangest things about it, was that this was like a regular philosophy class, completely free completely come as you are come, you know, here we are we're just going to gather we're going to read Plato and translation but we're going to have real Greeks and real Croatians and all the other people and they're going to argue about this stuff and they're actually doing it right now they're today they're arguing about parmides, pre-socratic philosopher. At the same time yet all the stuff you heard about Bill Gates, yes, rooms that are entirely in Russian rooms that are entirely in Chinese and Spanish other languages. Another room that was this morning with should should tech fund journalism are 500 people in that room. Facebook was in that room Facebook had their, their guy who's supposed to help small publications the Australians are in that room going over to conflict. You know, with the between Facebook and I mean, I mean it was incredibly rich incredibly complex I had this the feeling you have Jerry that, you know, wow, this is really something what you know it's it's gone. And, you know, your only, your only mode of capture is to follow one of the speakers, and then get to their Twitter and then DM that you know it's like it's a, it's an elaborate kind of process to try to create some lasting or something slower moving though I guess the only way you create something slower moving is you create a room, and then you start to draw around you the people who might then summarize or pull in the interesting changes that are happening in other rooms. That's amazing. I earlier when you're talking about the philosophy where I thought you're going to say, and then Plato showed up. Wow, that'd be pretty cool. Yeah. Well, they're actually there. It's very funny because yesterday, the guy reading Plato's dialogues actually had had figured out a kind of a vocal theatrical technique.  According to Beth it in a couple years GPT 10 fed all of Plato's works will pretend and sound like Plato and engage in the conversation as a bot and an gullybot will have grown up to be a clubhouse 10 participant or something like that. I mean we're heading, we seem to be heading in that way at least you know if you slow it down a little bit a little bit to writing the machine learning stuff seems to be getting pretty damn good at certain domains. So the common sense reasoning in a conversation about anything, I think that's pretty far away, but but narrow it down to what Plato might have said about X. And that could work I don't know. Yeah, at least it's a, it's the kind of approximation of an answer that you might get from, say a classics professor. Yeah, who not perfect, not necessarily right but in the ballpark with footnotes, you know that would be. Okay, that's valuable. Lovely. Thank you very much. King Judy Doug. Julian, did you want to jump into that. Or do you have to leave. Yeah, I have to leave. Sorry. Thanks, Julian. All right, we'll see you next time.  Just real quick what they said about clubhouse fascinating and weird. The thing that I'm finding. My first experiences was I thought this is a club for monologists. You know, just be you know single people going on at great length now it's coming more and more conversation or at least the groups that I'm finding myself in or more conversational. What I'm missing most is a kind of chat function. There's no way to interact individually with other people in a room. And I find that I miss that I want that that may be something that's coming down the road. It's, I was very struck in my early encounters at the percentage of people of color. And I don't know if that's out random or algorithmic or representative population but very different than most of the environments them in. Seems me there, there are a lot of people who are peddling very hard to build presence and find ways to monetize this.  Some people have tens of thousands of followers and some people have millions of followers already, which is kind of startling. So I don't know what the game is on that, but there's that.  It's funny, we could we could we could take OGM on there it would blow it would blow up. I'm wondering yeah, and we, which may or may not be a good thing Jerry. I know exactly. The first thing that struck me was how diverse the people were in on Clubhouse like it was way more diverse than anything I've been on am on fall into typically which was fabulous. And then also Julian when you said Gil has his hand up or Kevin you said Gil has his hand up I'm like but his avatar always has his hand up what do you mean. So now I understand what you meant. So I can't hear you. Is that a request to change my avatar. No no no it's good it just looks like you're always calling for attention though. I think that is my heck is my hex avatar.  Sorry, go ahead. Oh hey I was just going to say since I'm in Europe, I keep waking up to see all these great conversations happening at two and three in the morning and I'm like when am I going to get on anything, because it's just not going that much over here so, or I'm missing it maybe I don't know. It's kind of funny. It's interesting I wonder anybody else from Europe having experiences on clubhouse. And does clubhouse other have a rhythm or a schedule sort of for traffic because of where it's picked been picked up around the globe. There's a lot of stuff in Europe I know because when I get up it just up three or four hours before I get up. So it's, you know it's in GMT time. Yeah, I have to look and see what's happening. For some reason I'm getting all the other ones in America though. Ingrid there's like a whole like Nordics community that really many people follow those people. There's a bunch of other rooms that all the other people in Europe and there's a on Davos group that's in Sweden Switzerland. All right, I'm on it because I used to live in the Nordics so I got it. I didn't think about that but of course it's like a lot of yeah there's whole Nordics climate kind of great. Very cool. And now we can make it back to the queue. Yeah, yeah, I was just I had to drop off I posted that blog post about the thing I mentioned and I've had to to two realistic pilots come up in the last hour so I had to go off and respond to him but it seems to be taking off pretty pretty well it's pretty lightweight. That was awesome. Yeah. That's awesome. Thank you. Ken, Julie Doug. Hello everybody. I finished cast the origins of our discontents this week, which is a very lengthy. That's a good. Yeah, really great, great book and it was, excuse me, I was on a webinar the other night. I think John Kelly was there I know Julian was there it was about the future of democracy. And I was really struck. There were three speakers and none of them were addressing the issue of race. And they were looking at Trump. You know from the lens of people feeling like their religion and their gun rights were under attack there was no mention of, you know the role that racism was playing in this and I was furiously typing in the chat, you know, things I'd learned from cast and, and it just brought to the before, you know, for me, how most white people really do not understand the role of race and racism in this country.  I don't, I think that might be true for some white people. But I think there's, there's a much larger, we will want to talk about slavery for a lot of other reasons besides guilt, and guilt is just one small snippet of that. And just as very struck by that the other night, there was some very, you know, good information that came forth, some scary information, you know this idea of a long night coming and the way that corporations, you know when someone said one of the speakers said you know when Twitter, deep platform Trump essentially they're performing a political function, and you know no one else could shut him up and so now corporations have this inordinate control that that will used to be long to the government is now seated in corporations and not quite sure I feel about that but was an interesting point. So there's just been a lot of stuff in my mind spinning around, you know, what is the future of democracy. How are we going to get together here and make this work. Listen to a talk by Charles C man, who's booked the Wizard of the Prophet, I'm also in the middle of reading. And he was at the Long Now Foundation, and I won't go into it but he mentioned something in the Q&A at the end of this talk and I'll put it in the matter most chat. You need three things for an industrial revolution, you need steel, and that's pretty readily available, you need energy and we have a lot of sources that, and you need rubber. Because synthetic rubber doesn't actually work very well. And rubber is actually very much under threat. There is, you know, there's there's only it only grows in certain conditions, and it's subject to certain pests. And if you go to Brazil, there's a huge rubber plantation. I didn't realize this. He said, you know, in the 1930s, Henry Ford spent a billion dollars. And it didn't work. It was the biggest loss of his empire, right. And so now there's rubber found in Brazil and in Southeast Asia, and there's pests in the rubber plantations of Brazil and if you happen to go to Southeast Asia, and you have Brazil stamped all your passport. There's no protocols for making sure you're not carrying. So it made me realize just how vulnerable we are. I mean there's a lot of vulnerabilities but I'd never thought about what happens if all of a sudden rubber goes away in her. That's going to bring down a tremendous amount of stuff. So I don't have any answers I'm just sitting here with all of this new information training am I going, we're, we're way way far from equilibrium here. It's really hard to know for sure we're in an inflection point but is it moving in an inflection point where it's going to go positive or negative or kind of, you know, I just don't know so I'm just sort of sitting with all this stuff churning in my brain wondering what to do with it so I coming up here in OGM. Yay, a good place for it. Pete was Ferris metallurgy invented by Ferris Bueller. Exactly, yes. Yeah, and a really and a lot of a lot of coal or something like that. Yeah, can thank you for putting the link in the chat. Appreciate that a lot. And I love Charles man his books 1491 and 1493 were really really important for me, because he put a lot of stuff together very nicely. And the profit is fantastic. I highly recommend it. My reading list is way too long. I know mine too but I've been listening to it which is, you know, makes it easier. So all we need to do now is switch to completely oral oral information architecture because we'll be on Clubhouse all day long and when we're not on Clubhouse we'll be listening to a podcast podcast will be listening to audio books. Perfect. Scott. I'm not on Clubhouse but I have a question about some of the things you said earlier. I want to ask this idea of your response. Jerry to Twitter is that you're kind of ladling from the stream. You're not trying to capture everything it's just sort of this ongoing thing and I'm wondering if the oral side of things. Do we get to the point where we're porch sitting and we're just kind of talking and we're not feeling the need to constantly capture. We're just reaching down and if that's something that happens. I think that's the strength of Clubhouse is that it's immediate and it's only that oral medium and you make up the rest in your head by the way I've got a show we're doing repeatedly now called the good pitch that's tomorrow evening at 630. As opposed to Shark Tank. It's this is like a porpoise tank where we help you get to shore. We've got about five people doing it. We did it once and it was pretty fun. We're going to we're going to do it regularly. And then we'll give out 15 minute meetings with us if we find you interesting or if you want to that kind of thing. Tomorrow at 630. Can I just say how much I like where we help you get to shore. That's like the best tagline. I mean, porpoise tank was good. It's like OK Shark Tank and it's like where we help you get to shore. Oh, right, right. Cool. That's what they do. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's fabulous. Yeah, the alpha ego has to demonstrate itself through generativity. So that's that's a different place. Can you put a link in Kevin. You think tomorrow. Well, it's it's on clubhouse tomorrow and but then we've got a site. I can put that link to the site that Natile set up. I'll do that. What's the clubhouse follow though. Me, I guess or or, you know, I'm not the one doing that part of it. So I'll go I'll go try to find out. Awesome. Well, as I mentioned yesterday in another group, I'm really trying to hone my different energy zones into some cohesive central theme. So that when I'm working on something that benefits multiple groups. I'm kind of right now for the moment, oddly, stepping back into a bit the science side and the science of the future that's necessary for the industry of the future and the lack of representation of diversity in those fields. And what are the specific things that we can change in the systems to assure that we get rich creative thought from every possible human being into critical zones of development for the future. Interestingly enough, national societies at the professional society level, or at the level of the National Science Board NFS NIH and so forth, are all starting to actually program on that in webinars. And there's some really rich content about changes in graduate education and other areas. So I guess if you want to tag me diversity education and human evolution I guess would be really about learning to be better people more complete people more participatory people. So I think it's pretty exciting actually but a little overwhelming from those from those conversations in those meetings and I'm thrilled that they're happening. What seems to be working what what what thing that gets said or done is catching on and seeming to help a lot. This in mentoring models actually is what's helping the most from what I'm hearing in the sense that somebody from the National Science Board said yesterday, we need to shift from a single mentor in the sciences like your PhD advisor to a collective mentor that has been around for years as well as other people. And so it's a social dynamic change that in sort of recognizes that people have superficial visual differences, but they may be at the heart, very similar. They just look a little different. The complexity then of seeing having, you know, each person has different strengths and gaps and I used to talk to employees about composite mentors when I was back in industry. Because, you know, the guy you want to talk to for finances isn't the same guy you want to talk to for a scientific question etc etc. I think that that the recognition of that in an educational system is a really exciting prospect, because it starts to move pure Godji into mainstream learning.  That's kind of kind of where my energy is and it's really refreshing to see all of these groups starting to program in these areas. Yeah, which is different, and actually getting into the layers of specificity like, Okay, so you're in a conference. You know, as it's the responsibility of the moderator to say by the way these are our policies. These are the kinds of behaviors we expect. If there are behaviors that you don't think are appropriate, you have a responsibility to try to get the two people together and have a conversation and do low level resolution. But they're starting to build in consequences. If you are a repeat offender you might not be able to come to national meetings. And so that's an interesting model. But it's just the visibility has changed in such a dramatic way to seeing this as just as important as what are the emerging fields. This was before was all on the emerging fields and the publishing model, and the tenure prac is now being it's being recognized that we need to add other other dimensions to effective advancement protocols in order to get the best people doing things. Thanks shooting. I put the links people asked for in this chat and the other cat, and it's called the good pitch. And it's the good pitch dot club, if you're in clubhouse so. Awesome. And we're trying to use matter most chat if at all possible in all ways and if you have trouble. My apologies Pete. Pete is our best troubleshooter for for getting it in both places just because some people don't. It turns out we've got one problem. AOL isn't accepting emails from matter most right now. So if you're trying to sign up with an AOL account. It won't go. It'll bonk. Are you talking to people with AOL accounts. Hey, don't just. Some of us are on this call. I still have an earth link account, which is there. I've got Gmail, Earthlink and Tomcast. 21 times somebody's down. So no hotmail then. No, never did hotmail. I couldn't I couldn't bear having an account that was called hotmail so never went there. Like, yeah, anyway. So Doug Ingrid Keig. Okay. There's so much going on in this conversation this morning it's kind of a microcosm of what's happening in the bigger world that does it tsunami of new conversations. And it becomes almost in fact you can't navigate for you've got to avoid a lot of it. The main interest is in thinking of what's the mind space between now and the future. I need strategies for coping with all that stuff. And one that I've been working with lately is looking not for what's being said but what's not being said. There are hidden assumptions behind the conversation. And that's actually a more stable structure than the stuff that's being spoken. So it actually reduces the information flow, but it enhances its quality, I think. Along that line, there's several things that have been on my mind this week. I've been trying to track Daniel Schmackenberger, and he's thinking he's such an interesting character. A little glib, but boy he knows a lot and it's worth thinking about how he sees things. He tends to be looking at logical structures like competition leads to wars, so we can't have a competitive society. We have to have a cooperative one. So there's a tight logic there, and of course, it's the stuff that seeks out, sneaks out in the cracks, where maybe the real interesting thinking can happen. One of the things that some of you know I've been struggling with is a group of economists, and they do not follow a logical structure very much. So they'll say things and not look at the secondary consequences. My favorite example is that around the world now, states, nations, corporations, cities are making strong statements about cutting CO2 by say 2035 by some fixed But they're not saying anything about what they're going to do in the next year to do that. And I think everybody's terrified of the obvious and that is to cut CO2 in a significant level. It's going to require cutting jobs. There's just no way around it. We cannot create the new jobs fast enough to take up the gap it's created by shutting down CO2 emissions. Is there a employment opportunity to do all the switching? No. For several reasons. First of all, the new employment is not going to be where the people are who are going to lose their jobs. So they're going to have to move. And all new jobs use energy without question. And that's not terrific for the environment. There's a massive shift to electric, which has all kinds of implications for the power grid power generation all that but at the same time, photovoltaic energy prices have plummeted like to the point where energy to cheap to meter seems to be coming off of the glowing ball of gases in the sky. So let's look at the logic we're going to replace gas with electricity. This isn't just the price point that's important. What's important is if you have a house that's heated with gas, you've got to take out that gas furnace, which is probably tied into the architecture of the building with clues and things. We placed it with an electric furnace. So we're talking about on the average somewhere between 10 and $20,000 to make that retrofit. Who's going to pay for that. Not only that if you look at the number we've got somewhere on the order of 60 million homes in the US, heated by gas, replace those with electric furnaces. How many does that take well it takes 60 to 80 million for what if you what if you turn off the gas and just leave it in place don't worry about it and then find alternate ways of heating spaces like light pipes or hot water or thermal heated by the sun or whatever to find new methods. All those things are expensive. Labor wise, and they're also expensive in terms of the use of materials. Well labor wise that sounds like employment and use of materials. Yeah, we got some of the challenges on it. Anybody else feel strongly about about the bump in the road toward trying to achieve any of these savings or I have a different, I have a different perspective than Doug with all respect, there's a bunch of folks who've been working hard on this. I think Doug you're right to point to the, you know, to the logistical constraints, not the technical or economic constraints. You know from work I've been done, looking at one of the barriers is the availability of trained contractors and trades people to do all the work. But that's, you know, that's like you say that's a job that's jobs as well as barrier. So, the Dutch have done a thing called energy vendor, which is a mass retrofit at scale program rather than doing house by house doing 10,000 homes that a crack, which gives you very different economies of scale. RMI has been examining that United States in New York state and a couple of other places we're trying to crank something like that up for the Bay Area. The barrier to me seems to be more mindset when I was working at city Palo Alto the, the municipally owned progressive electrical utility which operates gas and electric business said, oh, interesting, let's pilot maybe one or two of these a year. In particular about hot water heat and moving to heat pumps. And my approach was if we've got 25,000 households in the city and about 10% of water heaters die every year, because they have a 10 to 10 12 year lifetime. Well then in theory if we have the right infrastructure in place we should be able to replace, you know, 90% of the 10% per year and do 25,000 homes in 10 years, instead of in 100 years. The challenge here is that most building energy efficiency programs and regulation uses the action point of new construction so Berkeley says no new gas hookups and new construction doesn't hit the problem that Doug is talking about. But new construction is, you know, is 1% per year of the building stock. And so, you know, maybe two in some locations and we don't have 50 to 100 years to transform our building stock. Yeah. So the question is how do you build programs who rec refitted speed that are affordable job generation, generating net energy positive and easy for people to do. So, you know, case in point on the water heaters if you're here case in point here, we have a home, we have a rental unit we have tenants, our water heater failed on a Saturday night, some years ago. All I could do is get whatever I could get the next morning. There was no time to muck around. If instead if there was an 800 number to my utility company to a concierge program that had pre selected equipment vetted contractors permits already pulled financing in place paid for on bill, then you know, then I'm done. It's easy. I don't have to worry about it I make one phone call it's solved. So, we can think through stuff like that I think and address a lot of the concerns that Doug raised maybe not all of them but this is a challenge of, you know, we have to do this so how do we design a way to make it possible rather than say it ain't possible from where we are now. I also amended a conversation years ago, I don't know decade and a half ago. I think at a retreat where somebody was describing the energy costs of a database look up. And this is maybe in the earliest earliest days of Google maps and other sorts of things where it was like, Hey, soon we're all going to have devices where, like, on my phone for free I'll be able to navigate in real time. And the logic was, there's no way that's going to happen because look how much it costs to fill the screen with with information at any one time. And if you'd follow that logic, like, none of the services that exist today would exist. And you could then say yes because we're crazily subsidizing super hot data centers that are drawing whatever I mean there's a bunch of maybe alternate logic there but, but you would not have seen all of the stuff that we're using today that we take for granted. I read an article a couple years ago about data centers run things at as close to high capacity as possible so there's instantaneous if we were willing to have a small delay, we could turn down the energy consumption of a huge number of arms way way down. But because everybody businesses want everything right away. They have to run these things at full capacity so I'm trying. I'm sorry Pete I'm trying to remember something I read from like five years ago but it was a very compelling article about how because business demands things instantaneously that puts a much larger energy load on it than if if we were simply willing to have you know, plug your query in you'll get your answer in 30 seconds instead of 0.03 seconds right so the worst the worst case of that is with the is with the trading desk where you know finance companies are putting our renting buildings closer and closer to the stock exchange of service so they can shave nano seconds off of their response time. Yeah, John Kumi, I put his name in the chat is the go to guy about internet internet energy use killer you also in the MetaMOS chat.  No problem, no problem to kill. It turns out that data centers are also where there's a lot of innovation in controlling things. So big companies like Facebook or Google have huge efforts in in setting up ai's that control the the building temperature and and they're using things like louvers and stuff that that you know the the computers automatically open up at the right time and close at the right time to keep everything going. So I think you're right. You know responsiveness drives energy use but it also drives energy innovation and so a tiny, tiny story, April and I were in Iceland for a conference years ago, and we got a tour of a data center that was near Keflavik airport at what used to be a NATO base. And so they decommission the database and one of the warehouses have been turned into a data center and have in a data center half the energy consumed is powering the servers half the energy is to cool the place. One of the reasons to have this standing cold air so they had knocked the far wall out and put air filters in the entire wall. And basically that was their cooling system there was a standing breeze from that direction that that was you know that dealt with the temperature was really really interesting and then and then Iceland has green energy because so many so much you know hot water near surface and lava near surface, which is also why there are five aluminum plants in Iceland. So we moved to Iceland for the cheap green energy as well because aluminum is the most energy consumptive thing we do as humans, I think, like in one in one burst. Anyway, besides Bitcoin. Well, Bitcoin is now eating that. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, Ingrid Craig, Pete, John, Eric, me.  Thanks. No worries. Thanks, Ingrid. Craig, it's that's right. You went from on deck to in the batters box right away. Yeah, hi folks. Yeah, as I introduced last week my primary focus is on building modeling and building social media platform or experience which is fun, entertaining and grossing useful, but most of all, healthy. Particularly not damaging to health mental health emotional health. You're probably all familiar must all be familiar with the trouble that Facebook, in particular, and other social media is in right now. Catch phrases are the attention economy and addiction to social media.  So, all this has been thrust into the public domain to a great extent by last year's release of a film called social media. Sorry, the social dilemma, which many of you probably have seen I hope you have it's it's on Netflix. A film which which demonstrates and illustrates and analyzes very very well indeed the social harms done to almost everybody by some aspects of the way social media is made to work. So, I'm very excited to join tomorrow, another meeting with the Center for Humane Technology. This one. They do that on a platform called air meat. If anyone is familiar with that it's a it's a video conferencing platform, which is very nicely set up. So, these events start with a presentation or two. And then the attendees can gather around tables and have more intimate conversations for as long as one has stamina to do so. So the presenters include a lady named Megan Walsh from exposure labs which is the company behind the film the social dilemma. And what they're going to be talking about is how the team behind the film is helping educators and social workers, people like that to make this knowledge which this awareness of the harms that social media can do, and how they are, how the team behind the movie is still actively working. There are private screenings screenings at clubs and schools, colleges to to to increase and spread awareness of these things. So, tomorrow they're going to present what they're doing what they're actually doing on a daily basis day to day basis to to spread the word and make people more aware and involved in and helping to fix things. So, that meeting tomorrow I am looking forward very much to I use my attendance and participation in these meetings to to learn more about all of the aspects there are there there's so so much in it, which I try to use to help me build model and build my platform to to be one of the useful attractive fun and successful ones in the future. Thanks so much for coming to what you're building in the matter most chat. Are you on the matter most. Yes, I am now yeah awesome that would be great because then we can sort of follow and see what you're what you're up to. Okay. So, this website is a, it's a web app or work fine on your phone, you can install it as a, as a progressive web app. I don't know what that is. And it contains a social media stream posting. You make groups posts stuff comment on things just like you do or that's right. But this has absolutely none of the harms this doesn't attempt to analyze your mouse movements and what you click on it doesn't record anything that you do other than your posts in your comments it doesn't analyze you. It's not attempting to elevate your value as an advertisers target. It just leaves you alone to do what you want to do. And the other part of the app is a web RTC based video video and and and text chat. Yeah. Cool. Thank you very much Scott did you want to jump in. Yeah I'm running a little experiment that relates to this. I've set my phone to black and white. And I'm using my computer the same way, except when I'm working on my graphic design projects. And the reason I'm doing that is to increase the draw of real world and decrease the draw of computer world. And it's fascinating if you work on your computer for an hour, black and white, and then flip it over. And the color will hit you like a, like it's, it's, whoa, this is amazing. And if you just keep it there at black and white, everything else around starts to glow in a really nice way, because it's, it's just more interesting. So, it's just experiments I'm trying to let you know next week how it's going. It's an interesting idea. It's also useful to, to remind UI designers, user interface designers to take care of people who are color blind. The difference between orange and blue, which is a contrast I use in some designs is probably not. But you reminded me of that Scott, because the difference between those two colors for a color blind person is probably indiscernible. And I think that's always mystified me, I think 10% of men in particular are breadgreen color blind. So why did we pick those colors for the traffic light. Like, wait, one in 10, that's a lot. Yeah, that is a lot. And if you ask somebody randomly, hey, what's the order of colors on a stoplight. Most people can't just without looking at like can't remember that reds on top. So position doesn't necessarily help you. And it's not like the bulb has a shape that's like stop or go, it's just a circle, right. It's like, I'm really puzzled about how that happened. Not a problem we're going to solve here. Instead, let's go to Pete, John, Eric and then me. And several of us have to bounce from the call at the half hour. Remember, first time driving into Texas, the lights are horizontal. Yes. So it's like, how does that work? Good morning all. One of the things that's going on in the background is discussion with Linesburg and Jordan are proceeding a pace and going well and we really like them and they really like us. And one of the things I keep being called to say in those meetings that is that borrowing from Walt Whitman now actually one of the things I'm starting to say is OGM is large and contains multitudes. One of the cool things about OGM I think is that I haven't written up my fractal thing, my fractal essay so I have to like recapitulate it really quickly here. I think this hard fixed membrane boundary like most organizations does it's very fluid and very soft at the edges, which I think is a beautiful thing and it's largely credit to our heart and soul, Jerry, to kind of make it that way and keep it that way and make it work that way. So the other thing I think about OGM is that it's fractal and Jerry and I were talking about whether it's fractal or holographic, but fractal for me means it's at different scales. It's similar to itself. Holographic means that you can take a little part of it and it's and it can reproduce the whole thing at lower resolution kind of. But anyway, fractal is a good way for me to think about it. It's it's OGM whether we're you know on a Thursday call it's OGM whether there's 100 of us in the main list or 30 of us on matter most.  So the thing that it made me realize is that most most organizations often organizations, especially when they get to be called to the point where their organizations they have a hard boundary you're either you're a member of the organization, or maybe you're affiliated you're but you're a non member of the organization you have this membrane that you fit in or out. OGM is is really based on attraction and participation, and it's not, you know, it's not you jump over a boundary.  Kevin was about to, Kevin was looking for a moment to throw in some funny interjection, I think. Yeah, I'm going to make room for him. You two are more gathered there Jerry is with you. Thank you, Kevin. Back to you with Pete. So, so as we contemplate. Actually, we're getting close to signing an MOU with, with Jordan and Lyonsburg. It means that some part of OGM has to have the wherewithal and the membraneness to sign an MOU, you know, and what does that mean and how does that work and, and I think every time this kind of comes up and and you know we all talk about it we all agree that we you know fuzzy boundary kind of were attracted and participate to each other but not necessarily by jumping over a membrane jump or punching through a membrane. So, so that's a little bit intention and I think it's going to work out great. To define MOU. What's that? Memorandum of understanding. Fine. Memorandum of understanding. Yeah, it's a, it's a typical. I just needed the acronym.  And it's called an MOU. Memorandum of understanding. The other thing I wanted to talk about real quick. I'm super excited about something I'm calling massive wiki. I'm going to hit return and, and this, this is a pre announcement, because it only started two days ago, even though I kind of been working on this the stack of it for a couple years and thinking about it. It finally clicked for me on our, our Tuesday call. I think it's the right way to do wiki and federated federation of wiki pages. And I don't want to overshadow or, or undershadow or anything wards fed wiki which I think is also a beautiful thing but if you want classic wiki features, and you want to be in the 21st century. I'm rethinking the idea of a wiki engine contains pages. It's actually the other way around. There's wiki pages. And you use different kinds of tools in an ecosystem, you know, in the ecosystem to turn it into a wiki or turn it parts of it into a wiki or things like that. So, massive stands for markdown, markdown and semantic. Yeah. I know this really well and I've been going over and over and it's, it's anyway massive stands for Markdown shared version files. Okay, each of those is kind of important and I have two massive wikis now one of this. The first one was an example of it. And the second one is the one that's got the manifesto and things like that. I haven't clicked save yet on the part that says here's how to read a massive wiki. So that's, that's the next thing. So this is kind of a pre announcement don't get super excited yet or, or if you do get super excited. Hit me up, join the channel and say Pete, how do I do that. And the exciting part is going to come in, you know, a few weeks or a month or something like that when it's more put together. And Pete correct me if I'm wrong, I just want to riff on what you're saying. Part of this is thinking about how if we scatter files that can be used that are sort of kept securely redundantly, like, like, think about distributed linked open and shared warm data in some sense, then you can suck it up into a variety of different tools and improve it and keep working on this body of pages, you know, file objects that look like pages could be part of wiki, but you could also then say hey, here's a table of contents and this subset of pages is a book go make me an ebook right now. And the ebook would have a different skin a different template, a different set of ground rules for what it is and you go the other the other direction, and many of those pages could be reused for other reasons and other purposes by other apps. So you're now separating.  And all the stuff I put in the brain is not easily shared with anything else.  And I was like, damn it that the underlying links the tuples need to be shared in the shared space so that we can do things across brains. And that was never possible still isn't possible I can't do that so I think we're Pete is headed here and I'm thrilled. And I think that for this experiment starts to solve those problems in a cool simple way. And the cool thing is the tech is basically mostly there. You know we're like 90 or 95% done with the tech stack and the ecosystem of it so it's not like it's going to take a long time to put together it's just kind of rethinking a little bit how to do it. And the way I think of it is like, we don't, you know, we don't, I don't say that I have an outlook and Jerry has a Gmail, you know, we, what we say is, there's a pool of email that happens email transactions and stuff like that. And I dip into it with Gmail and Jerry chips into it with Apple Mail. So wiki ought to be the same kind of thing, you know, there's a, there's a ecosystem of knowledge and information and use different tools to touch it and and both to touch it and then publish it out to other things. Books or, or websites or wikis. And the simple way to do that is to just look at files and directories on repos like github. The more complicated way of looking that is starting to look at the distributed web distributed data technologies which are progressing a pace I mean they seem to be getting to some really interesting places where they could be completely functional here. And if you design the apps looking at the data properly, you can swap out the underneath at some point. Obsidian is really close to a massive wiki. And so I started using obsidian just two days ago I installed it and started using it because markdown because Pete is like you know what it's just markdown just go get used to markdown. And I think George or somebody on one of our calls said hey I've been I've been obsessing on obsidian. So I installed it and it's really interesting and it's not, it's not multi user though right or what. It's like, not, it isn't. But it could be it's like it's like it's this close and it's really elegant it's very pretty like like it's simple to use and I like that a lot so separate thoughts for later but I think some of the piece parts we're looking for might be showing up including what Pete is building right now. So awesome. Wow. And I've lost my queue here. Who else was. Wow. Massive wiki took over my entire if you play the game right. Yeah, you get Jerry to dump the queue. Exactly. You just you just pop the queue. So john Eric me and did I miss anybody else who wanted to talk. I think that's it. Go ahead john. Okay, so this is an analogy to the conversation you guys just had I mean you were talking about it's not outlook versus this it's it's the underlying database that gets repurposed and reused by different things that look at it. And it will not be new to this group but it is to the outside world to look at the democracy problem that way. So people are looking at it as oh it's January 6 it's always those extremes those people who want to you know say if you don't agree with me I'm going to come at you with a flag. All right that's one classic problems. Oh no it's the corporations and their, it's stealth capitalism or stalker capitalism and it's all this misinformation. Yeah, it's related you know, oh it's self governance. I'm going to come together as his group. Oh it's, you know, and then you can start going into the solution space you can go into things like participatory budgeting, which I've worked on. It's all of these things. They're, they're all application whether there's there's common, there's common data and the common data includes misinformation or hypothetical information or you know, relative degrees of trustable or possible information. And in that earlier conversation about slow moving and fast moving there's constitutional kind of information and there's issue information and you know so on and so forth. I find when I talk to people about the budgeting work I did people focus on the budgeting part they say oh budgeting budgeting yes you know and to me that's, I mean it's not nothing, but the real interesting thing is what happened to what happened to the tea party guy and the left progressive guy as they held play money in their hands, and they decided how much play money to put on the table for which program, because they were engaged in an activity that undercut their standard ability to characterize the other as the and to, you know, go into a long wrap about how wrong this was or how bad this program was or whatever you know it was just like just the sheer functionality of holding cash in your hand and putting the cash down, change the whole relationship. And so I'm really interested in, in expanding those kinds of activities beyond budgeting, giving people things to do that have a purpose that's not, let's have a political discussion that that kills it right there, you know, you're dead I mean, great that braver angels is doing that it's great that people are doing red blue, all that kind of stuff, but there's a huge territory of information and the huge territory of relationships that we, we could nurture that would lead to a much better functioning democracy, but but the key to it is giving people exactly the kind of thing that Pete and Jerry were just talking about giving them another way to look at the information that is important to them. And then to see what other information is adjacent to that, and then to see how that has implications for their relationships in the real world. So that sounds awesome to build on it before I pass it to Kevin, we are metaphorically talking about building civilizational OS is that's sort of common parlance for any geek looking at how do we fix democracy and capitalism and all that. So I think that that the metaphors is like actively in use and I think that that that's a really nice gluing together of those things. Thanks, John. Kevin. Dave Gray and the days before his brain shrink had these change cards. And one of the things they would do at big oil companies that you would have the passive aggressive guy who would lava killing come in and, and he would put out the elements of the change that they were adapting and said, put your hands out here and change it and the guy couldn't sit back and having to actually engage in building on the change or tearing it down, change the whole dynamic. And it was it was that was the really brilliant thing about his cards. I'm not sure if anybody's moving that forward but but that was that was the real thing is, is that the passive aggressive bomb thrower couldn't do it he had to actually engage with the four or five parts of the problem in the change there. It was really, it was really, really. Yep. And his work on liminal thinking and how people change their minds and his illustrations of that our world class fabulous. And that happened right before he sort of lost the program event. And my analogy for that partly is that maybe he was he had an aqueous moment he was flying too close to the sun, and doing that. So, yeah. Yeah, I was thinking about what topic. There's one. Yesterday I tried to find another word for praying, because I for me it's like to close to Christian philosophy which I don't feel attracted to anymore don't feel close to and I couldn't find it. And I'm like, wow, like, what I really believe in like I believe in humanism, but that doesn't make me doesn't give me the strength of this kind of there's something bigger than me. Like, do I want to believe in God, but God is also from Christian religion so there's all these other words I could reinvent the word. And as book colonism. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Remember. Was it a book colonism from cats cradle. Yeah, well, I'll look it up. Sorry, and you're putting a good thought on the table and I'm making I'm having fun with it but it's okay. But it's really difficult like the one thing that I found most positivity to is like possibilities. But that's actually basically saying, there's a possibility that things are true, or that things exist. And I've had so many remarkable experiences in my life that I understood that there is something like coincidences that couldn't be coincidence or or things that happen that were so astounding. But at the same time there's nothing binding to together easily. There's all these methods there's Taoism, which I kind of like principles from there's Buddhism. There's more open forms like Quaker. It's not. I don't think I would really feel at home in the Quaker meeting completely but I would find something which is this openness to discover together I guess. I really like Quaker meetings a lot just having been the many.  Yeah. Thanks. There's there's a lot of ways of thinking about what God is and what it might be there's like natural philosophies or whatever, like, but it's. It's a practice that I can use and that I can that I know how to relate to all of this. And I thought of this other example where it was shamanistic was we were in a sweat lodge and we're talking about our grandparents and and how important they were and that of course it came from Indian ways of thinking of living and for me it meant so much to value my grandparents and to really see them in the light of like oh I got a lot from them and it gave meaning and I'm searching for you what what will what can I use what will work for me like in a more general sense. I guess all of you also thought about this. Oh, didn't you. They're more, they're more Google searches for spiritual but not religious than any other denomination or any other thing. Yeah. And I think almost every method that calls itself spiritual I find this like very slide goo dynamics creep in, even if they show themselves as really open and positive open minded. And it becomes like yeah this is the way to look at the world and it's, it's not only me. I think, maybe it's closest to mysticism or something what I look for but then a practical way of doing that. But I have no idea. You're on, you're on the quest that so many people have been on right, and then I put in the chat to barism calm I invented a place folder religion. Just as a, as a game. If you want edit privileges. It's a Google site if you want to be able to edit there and play with it. You are absolutely welcome to it. Judy do you want to jump in. I always say that, that having moved away from traditional religions. I found that I can do almost all the same things and feel the sense of connection and guidance. If I just do meditation and and mostly reflect on connecting to the earth the trees nature, the universe, and you then end up losing the time space so it ends up that you're in a community of all time all space with various things coming in.  Eric you know I should connect on this because I've done a lot of research and thinking and found some interesting answers for myself. But for me, but I had heard something that it's a really made sense to me is it's substitute the word ask, instead of the word pray. You, because most people meditation is not, is not praying because you're not looking for anything a common idea of praying is that you are, you are looking for some guidance or making an appeal or something like that. And so if you simply say ask, and then ask your question, and it doesn't matter. If you're envisioning anything at all. And asking outside of yourself subconscious either a power, you know, it doesn't matter you're simply asking the question, and the answer will show up and you'll, and sometimes it's like where he's like yeah I know. So what do you mean yeah you know, you know or or it's just an interesting thing where you and I can talk about this. The answer lies within you. I mean, like, the answer will show up and where, what does that mean, where did it come from, I don't know, maybe it came from inside you, maybe it came from something up but it doesn't really matter. That's a, that's a way of making it something taking away some of those connotations that you're trying to get away from. And we've just opened a lovely big gigantic juicy topic and several of us have to bounce from the call. Yeah, if you all would like to go deep from this whoever leaves this room last turn off the lights. I know that Judy and Pete and I have to bounce but thank you so much and like completely awesome. Thanks all. I hang out with you Eric if you want to. Yeah, good. So, so as I was, and watch some, some lectures on psychological analysis of biblical stories as a way to say why did they survive. Well, they survive for thousands of years you can argue why but a lot of the reason that this person said and I tend to agree with it, is that there's value in it. Well, what's what's the value. Well, perhaps it's the collected wisdom of, of societies, trying to figure out how things work, how do you, how should you behave how should you treat other people. That's that sort of stuff so if you take the mysticism out of it, and just say, this is our best attempt to codify how things work. So, the way that they did that he presented this was in the, like the creation myth. So he says okay so here's a story about how things came to be well let's take this apart. So, there's nothing. God speaks. Now there's something. And it's good. Well, what does that mean. And the idea that he came up with it just kind of blew my mind. It's, if you encounter chaos and an attempt to make order using truthful speech, what you create will be good. And I thought, that's a really deep and interesting idea. And his whole premise is that's why it survived, because it is, it is deep and it is like that you can chew on that for a long time so it's the idea that truth is the path to what is good. If you if you speak what's true for you if I speak what's true for me if we're both trying to get to what is what's real. Then you end up with something that's good, or at least the best that could have happened because you're not intentionally trying to make it worse. You know, you're trying to find that that space that's that's true. And what I've done is I've, I've found this. I think well what what if the concept of a higher power is actually the empty embodiment of the word truth. Okay, so what does that mean, like, well, if you, if you do something truth in a social social concept, because that's, that's what we are social creatures. So for example, if I betray you. What odds are I'm going to be taken out at some point. So this is a bad thing you don't want to do this. Well is that true. Well it's not a fact. But it sure feels true. It feels like okay yeah that's, that's, I think that's right in a calm, you know, if I help someone out reciprocity. I will be better off. They will be better off things, but things will be better things will be good. Does that is, does that make sense. Kind of make sense, does it feel true in society. It does to me. And so all I've been doing is anytime someone uses the word God and something. I try to, I try to use the word true. Instead, not true as in what they're saying is true, but swapping out the words and saying does this actually does this actually work. And it's been surprising how many times it actually just just swaps in and swaps out. It's really an interesting idea and that that the idea of faith in that context is belief that truthful speech is the way to encounter chaos to bring about the good. And that's why you're made in the image. Well, because you have the ability to create things by through, through your actions and through your truthful speech. And so you, and I don't know, it's just, it was a fascinating thing that really kind of made me think wow.   Those two can't, they can't reconcile with each other because they're, they're diametrically opposed. But in the center is, well you have what our facts, and then you have what do you do about that. And I don't think the facts, you know, people talked about what, just because you know what something is okay we have the power of the power. Okay, what do you do with that.  Science doesn't tell you that science just tells you how to how to make that we've discovered that power. And I think that we're, we're in a period where we're a lot of us are suffering because we don't know. We're not looking to the facts for the answers. Or we're looking, we're discarding the facts and saying well that's a bunch of crap we need to follow the, you know, the, the mystical side and I think that there's a point in the middle that. I just thought I'd throw that out, because you don't have much chance, you don't have many opportunities to talk to them about this, because those people don't want to, you know, so. Yeah, but that's that's I think that's one of the places where it starts it's like feeling comfortable talking about it because even when I start this topic it's almost I feel part of me feels ashamed that I talk about religion because religion yeah who's talking about of course there is religious people in the group as well. So it's a weirdly. There's a weird charge on talking about this and I think it's the most essential thing to talk about. It's most meaningful to talk about this it's most constructive also, but it's very hard because any answer for me is not an answer. Anything that's bogged down bogged down what I say anything that's like it in stone written in stone that's a danger that's like, it's not just the danger but it's also deadening to, to what's alive in people like if something already the word should for me, I don't like it. I don't like the word should what should we do know thing there might be one thing is better than the other within a certain context. But it's never going to be a rule because every context different relativity but also ethics are even like, first I thought okay it's a different between ethics and morals, like morals is the way how you should behave and ethics is the is like searching what feels what is like better than the other. What is what is most worthwhile pursuing but it's not actually working that way because ethics also have this way of turning into a moral or a should automatically once you think this is better than the other. Automatically sifts. And I think that's what happens when talking about religion and about spirituality. It's hard to feel free in the space it's hard to really be open and have a conversation where you really try to discover what is it about without falling into a trap of loyalty in certain moment. There was this moment where were. Okay, now I figured it out. I've got this really insight. I've got truth now. So if it's true, then I have to follow it, but I think truth is not about following. And that's a weird dynamic. It's hard to get free inside of that. The truth. The idea the idea that I'm postulating here and that I've heard was it's the same as science in the sense of science is is the current agreed set of. Okay, this is this is what we believe is our facts, and it's always changing. It's always updating, and it only updates and changes because we talked to each other. And I would say, you said that, that, you know, there's nine planets. Well, the more we look at it. Now we're thinking that that one out there is that it doesn't count anymore. And I see truth as the same thing. And it's, it's not a set of facts. It's not. It's something that worried. I don't think you can ever find it. You, you, you can keep asking, you can keep saying, I think this is right. And then you say, I think this is better. And I say, oh, yeah, I think that is better. And then we sit with that for a while and then I think, I think maybe this is better. And it's, it's not that we're going opposite. It's just that we're kind of going like this. We can only do that if we ask, either ask by ourselves or ask other people and have that conversation. It's, it's the endless search of humanity is trying to figure that out. Yeah, it's great if you want to say something please do it because. Yeah, I'm, I'm actually very pleased to have landed in, in such a conversation because. Whoa, where, where could I start.  There will be more goodness and truth around you and hence in the world at large. But can I say something really quick I don't want to take you off track. It was, you just reminded me of something one of the reasons that you that that you want to be truthful to yourself is then you can ask yourself and trust the answer.  And if you're always at least saying what you're, what you're feeling is true, then you can trust that when you ask yourself. You're getting, you're getting authentic responses. One self is the only one which one can trust can can really trust. Not necessarily implying that everyone else is lying but there can also be significant weaknesses in one's own ability to understand what another person is saying, as well as the other persons inability or weaknesses in their ability to express themselves. Similarly, grammatically, verbally, even emotionally how well do they understand themselves, where's all coming from so really the best quality of confirmation I think one gets from from one's own self reflection and conclusions on one's internal inventions, which brings me to the God concept.  It's just a funny phrase. Yeah, I really do that. But when it's true, you can have a line to myself, you know, and, and it's, it's like, yeah, well, don't do that if you actually think about every time you say something, think, do I believe that. Am I saying because or because if I, if I'm only saying things that I actually believe and I'm not just saying things that, you know, I want to talk about religion. But no, I'm just going to not do that, you know, or whatever it happens to be you talk about, I think that that's important you're attuning yourself so that you can be that one that you can trust. Right. Yeah. Yeah, the, the idea that God is good is to me, patently ridiculous. It's obviously not true. God is God is not good when he, she or it brings a tornado through your village and destroys absolutely everything, but leaves the lemon meringue pie untouched on the kitchen table. I heard someone recently. Yeah, someone was in one of those tornado disasters in the States claiming that this was God's mercy because the lemon meringue pie was undamaged. Jesus really. Where did they get people, you know, what is true is not what is good. I have to rephrase that I'm not as articulate as this person.  And so if you're, you know, it's the suppression of the, the negative. Oh, well, we just aren't going to, we're going to talk about that. Well, okay, that's not true, because it's still there. You know, and so I think maybe saying that what you, if you speak truth what you create will be good is, is it's a tricky, it's a tricky phrase because it makes it sound like, all I have to do is say the truth and everything will be lemon meringue pie. And that's, that's not true but it's, it's this idea that you are, you're not going to make it worse, because you can make it, you can make things worse. You might not be able to stop thinking about it anytime soon but you, but that in itself can make can make it worse. If it's an open sore and you leave it alone to fester, it will get worse. So you really better talk about it. Analogy go to the doctor get it treated. Deal with it, you know, if it's something that puzzles you on this very deep personally important level. My goodness, deal with it. You know, I like very much the Buddhist idea that our concept of God, a translation is or the word God or a substitute is the way or the way things are the way things work. So God is good God is not good. It is good. It is not good. Things are good things are and they're all true all at the same time. The moment of every day depending on your perspective, emotionally intellectually financially whatever God is happening all the time, not to use the Christian meaning of the word God. Things are happening as they really are and that is what God is it's just the way things are. And that way I get to think about the mysterious powers that be those that I have no grasp of I don't understand but I suspect fear sense enjoy the presence of it makes a more friendly domain than than the big old white bearded guy with the heavy hammer up in the sky who's going to punish me should I do wrong that doesn't exist for me it's that's what I found. What it made true for me was that punishment is just the natural outcome of things you're doing that are not, not good or helpful. It's the social ramifications of breaking social contracts. And so betrayal will be punished, not because there's some entity that's going to do that, but because the pressure of society will eventually that that will happen and so if you simply turn it into, you know, the concept of God is a concept of the social reality. And it's this, like, well, yeah, if you, if you act in a way in accordance with that. If you follow, shall we say, then things generally will work out better for you. Does that mean it's going to be perfect.  It's still, it doesn't change anything but but the idea of punishment is really the it's it's not something that that's like well maybe I can, maybe I can get around that it's like you you live in a in a society and that we have ways that we interact with people that are there. And, you know, it only works because people follow those generally follow those rules and, and look, you know, look frown on those who don't smile on those who do and that's, that's to me the blessings and the punishments. They're just kind of natural cause outcomes of sounds a bit more like karma what you say but what you saw. Yeah, yeah. Where do those phrases come from and why do they last so long, you know, we know it. I would like to react to something you said before and for me it's like words are so tricky but it's not just words it's what connotations and concepts and what what's part of it like you said yeah but if I look at truth in this way. Then it works, but then the word truth is used in other ways so often that it's hard because once you hear word you're automatically in the loyalty or in the frame that a person uses when they use the word like praying. Yeah, I'll pray in my way. It will not be Christian, but then automatically you, you revert, I revert back to a kind of, okay I'm very serious now. Sometimes I do this even but it's like, but there's so much attached to this really hard to let go of it but then there's no other words. So being outside of words is also really tricky because you can't. It's hard to hold things there's no. I mean you could make a picture of it and then remind yourself of it I don't know maybe but still it's really. On hand, like to lose and no no structure at all just openness makes it hard to remember actually what you're doing and to create the clarity but then with words. There's all these connotations which which pin you down in a certain idea of what. It's like very often if I share something very openly how I think differently I have to know for sure that the other person hears it that way or else we're talking about something completely different so how do we talk about this how do we talk about it. I think today is open. And I think this this thing about multi perspective is and that was like, last week's call there was this idea that that helps, because there's still this open mindset and we can have a lot of other ideas together. That helps, but I still wonder, I'd like to be open, but I like to be able to talk about it but it's really tricky. Long history that we haven't done about it. I don't know if it made. Is it clear what I said, until now. Yeah, well, the same person that taught me this said that art comes first. And then articulation and art is pre articulation and so things like, like music is is the first. And then visual art, you know, in a rough framework, and then being able to talk about it. And the idea that you can listen to a symphony you can listen to a piece of music, and be emotionally affected is very interesting.  It's transcendent. And so perhaps for you having having musical pieces would be better because you don't have the linguistics. And even then it's weird, like I used, like my favorite composer would be Arvo Perth, and I saw a documentary about me deeply orthodox believing as a person. And I was kind of inspired because of his depth, and he would walk through a field in this documentary and say, every flower counts. And in one day, there was like a cleaning lady that came to him. And he asked her, he asked to the cleaning lady like, yeah, what is, what is good music? I don't remember. And then how do you make good music. And then she said something like love, love every note. And then it's like a beautiful statement, certainly if you know his music, because every note in how he composes certainly with repetitive music more, it counts. It's a deep beauty, but still there is something about him as a person being such a devout Christian and the heaviness and the pompousness of some of his music that don't make me feel that's what I want for real. So it's not just, it's not just the artistic. The artistic is without ethics as well there is no, and if it's used for ethics and it's also problematic because often it's used to underscore certain points. I remember I was in France doing a theater thing. And I heard on the radio, the president that I was then was coming and was kind of extreme right but not really extreme yet. But a guy I didn't like but he speeches with were underlined with his music in this emotion and then like, ah, damn. It's a misuse of there is no ethics yet. It's a very difficult thing. I thought about this as well. So for me it's still searching like how to balance it out and somehow it does make sense. I think we can recognize ethics somehow. It's a very open constantly changing thing as well. Ethics are applied to whatever is going on. New things happen. A whole new school of ethics opens up. One of the catchphrases and what I work with these days is ethical technology. Right, so there's technology which does unethical things like analyzing your personality to to to increase your value as a target for advertisers. This is how Facebook and others make their money. This is unethical because the there are many harms involved in at your at your cost to your cost in the way they do this. So there's a whole new school of ethics. Philosophical analytical endeavors applied to technology. So ethics, like everything else is fluid. I think the only thing you said written in stone. The only thing that can be written in stone is that everything is fluid. Moving and changing all the time. So ethics are relevant until an issue is resolved in the mainstream to a large part and then something new will come along to be ethical about it. That's that that again then sounds a bit like Taoism where the way you can't name the path you try to name the path the path is already gone or something like it's like. Tao is you can't really get it. There's no rule and the rule is always turned over to its opposite and it's both can be true and the small will affect a big and big will affect a small other kind of stuff. But still, it's my destination. There's no destination. It's the process which is healthy and ever. Yes, it sounds good. It sounds good. And then you would say, oh, okay, let's do Taoism but then my main bodywork training was Taoism and they went really deep in bodywork. They could do things that people would consider miracles like some people get treated for things that normally you would have a regular treatment for years or something. I literally hear stories about things. A lot of people would call miracles but true bodywork, but a very deep understanding of bodywork. People would be helped in that same school. I heard so many things that for me were considered unethical. And there was so much power stuff going on all the time. And the power stuff was not nice and there were, there was so much going on that for me, like they were talking about the heart all the time but then in the way they were doing dealing with the power stuff. The heart wasn't there. It was just people protecting their power position and stuff. It's a funny thing.  It's funny. So how to keep it open. I was just thinking, yeah, maybe call it like open, sensible free ethics or something, but it doesn't sound like anything. But it's kind of what it's about. It's funny how it's, it's, it's hard to pin down. And I think it's not meant to be pinned down maybe or it's not. The process is not about pinning it down. And what if it's not, what do we do then to support the process in the best possible way I guess that's maybe a question. There's certainly plenty in the world around us to apply these questions and searches to so much of what we all do what everybody does is. I really want to say fake, but it's not true to what is actually required. And I think the cynic in me believes and feels that most of the time, most people are lying to themselves not being truthful to themselves, and certainly not thereby therefore certainly not being truthful with everybody else. If someone else is anything like me. Then, then we harbor doubts and concerns, as well as joys and pleasures. We share the joys we get together for the pleasures and the joys and the doubts and concerns. We tend to, as you alluded to earlier Eric you're even reluctant to bring this subject up. You know, and I think that's, that's a tendency and I'm very glad that you, that you do it anyway, because I think most, most of us myself included, don't do that most of the time. And I guess we miss out on opportunities to make some progress in these fields. So what you're saying I get two insights. And I'm not sure if I can articulate in the night and try like it makes you think on one end of Hannah aren't, which basically said something like everything is political everything we say and do is political there is a, we as a person, people are political beings. So you can't take yourself out of the political room you always make decisions politically. And with that comes the responsibility that politics have. If I'm saying I'm just going to do my own thing in build my own garden, live off the grid. It's a political statement. It has influence because, and it's not necessarily the best influence. I don't know how to express this it's like, yeah, I don't know, I'll try to wrap this up in a way but it's like, on the other the idea that I had this like radical honesty and then being really honest like speaking your truth, like a bit like Scott says I think it does make sense. And there's there's these ideas like radical honesty which guy developed and then I can see a lot of people aren't honest. And then I noticed NBC trainer that said yeah at first I was being honest but then I was being really rude and it didn't work. And I said and then I found out about like something like vulnerable honesty let's be vulnerable and honest. It's kind of it's like a step closer again to something that makes sense. But if I combine this like being honest to yourself. And that we're political human beings I think that's that's a lot of being said there already but it's, it's a hard practice because there's all this rules about being polite or like social norms and rules and some of them are really clear and other or less spoken. And the way we constantly judge each other and put each other in boxes but then yeah. There's a social art where I'm no expert but I recognize its existence and necessity. There's an art in being. So if you're going to be brutally honest you will be rude and you'll upset lot people.  So you have to modify that. So if you're going to be really vulnerably honest, you will suffer a lot in different ways. And that's not going to work so very well either, but you still want to be honest because, as I think we three all agree, honesty and truthfulness and doing good things are the way we want to go. So, the art is in managing oneself. Successfully, such that one can be honest, completely honest all the time, but do it with with social finesse, such that I think probably if you if you get good at it you can make people laugh you can make people pay attention but not be upset be intrigued more than than insulted. I think we end up, we end up not wanting to hurt someone or not wanting to have a conflict in the short term. And push that down the road. If I just am nice now and don't say what I really feel that I don't have to deal with this and I think that's incorrect. Political failure. You're not making any progress to deal with it. If to deal with it, but eventually and it just gets bigger. So, you know, in a very simple way, you know, with your family, well, okay, so if someone's asking you for an opinion about something and you, and you don't say it. And you don't say it, and you don't say it, and five years go by, and now they, they have a sense of who you are. And they don't. And one day you've had enough. And you say, you know what, I'm tired of you. I don't even think about this, or I've always hated that painting on the wall. And they, they, they're like, it's like you slapped them, because you're just telling them what you would have told should have told them the first time, but you didn't. And so now it's built this thing. And it's this, like, who are you. And, and I think that's where, where it runs into trouble is, is, you know, politically in our country. You know, we, we didn't, we didn't really talk about politics. We don't really talk about religion, we don't really. And then suddenly, wait a minute, how did we get so far apart. I had no idea. And because it was there. Yeah, okay, but that's also, we are just learning, like, only from the 50s onwards, I'm not sure. There were pedagogical and psychological people writing before like the real boom of psychology and pedagogy and, and maybe also like philosophy as something that we as a society do with philosophies together. It's a larger society, not just the intellectual elite or something. It's very new. So we haven't learned to talk to each other and we're still at the beginning stage of that. So that's kind of normal so that we're not yet honest. There's all these people practicing it. It's still, yeah. But we are making progress by realizing, as you've just said, look, it's only been two or three generations that this level of intellectual and endeavor has has even been possible. And we're very much still finding our way. And we're making progress with the realization that by not saying what you should have said, when you felt it, because why would you not say it you didn't want to upset somebody means or implies that you still have developed you still lack the, the, the, the, the, the life art that I alluded to, you were not able to manage yourself well enough to say what needed to be said in a way that was not going to cause sparks and fire. We didn't say it, and years went by as you, as you said Scott, and a toxic new roses developed and built up and built up and it spills out of yourself into all the other people affects us all and in the end we've got redneck confirming the Capitol building. We are making progress by realizing the detrimental effects of our inexperience and our weaknesses. I think one of the biggest. Yeah. I think one of the things I think one of the big problems is also listening better than talking often. So I, we started with this idea of, for me as at least it's like, what's an alternative to all these ideas about God and maybe remember something it's another phrase. It's an old phrase, but it's pray do tell me. It's, it's this using that word as, as, as an ask, or as a request, and it's this idea that maybe asking you is a form of, of pray, you know what I said, using the word pray use the word ask, please. Yes, exactly. When I ask Eric, when you can, when you think about praying, who are you praying to? What are you praying to that's, that's even not answerable like I, I believe. I believe trying to put it down will. I think there's a lot of everything is there, maybe not start there everything's there. Who I am. I learned just to this guy, Peter Russell, he's a non duality guy. And he explains like that consciousness is primary by saying we've got a map of the world around us if you come to your house. The door knob is like dancing five centimeters off you wouldn't notice it because you've got a map of everything around your surroundings.  If I, if I talk, and if I pray I pray to everything. I pray to the everything that exists within me. So, and the way what's his name. He says kind of something like intuition is everything we know from a whole life. So when, when you delve into intuition, that's, that's a scientific approach to intuition it's like, you can't know anything you don't know, you just connect to everything you know already. And I've also noticed that in my life there's so much that happens beyond the realm of normal communication. Like, I've had so many coincidences and so many things happening that at a certain moment it became clear yet there is information traveling in other ways. So, it's like, so I'm talking to everything basically. I don't know what it is and I don't know when I'm talking. Yeah, so it confuses me as well. I like I like that the answer and that whole whole approach. It's why I like the Buddhist idea of God being the way things work. I pray also but I'm talking to myself I'm talking I'm not talking to a God figure I'm just talking to the universe. How can I why is it or I wish it was. And then I remember things like well be the change you want. Find somewhere to start. The universe like this is an expression of discontent or malcontent whatever. Yeah, well, one wishes things could change. So start then is always my answer to myself find a place to start and make the first move. Yeah, well, those are principles, and they can help to get unstuck. Yeah, I wonder sometimes if, you know, every time we experience something observe, observe something from the from the moment we're born and everything that enters our mind stays there. So in the immediate reaches of your attention. And so when you've lived through years and experienced billions and billions of moments that you haven't even paid attention to yet all the information is in there. So when something inspires a thread of sparks. It might feel like intuition or, or a realization or actually not. You know this stuff already because you've seen it. Didn't even register that you were seeing it, which kind of marries into this idea that that you were just talking about you. We have a map of everything around us because we've pretty much seen everything you might not have seen your front door, but it's a tricky thing because it's not about a map for real but yeah, it's much more than just, I think we understand things viscerally and there's so many layers to that. Anyhow, I want to, I need to round up because I started feeling tired, also because I haven't slept well the last couple of nights. So how to wrap up. How are you Scott. I'm good. I think the way to wrap up for me is to say thank you for opening this topic. It's been very interesting to talk about. And for me. This has been the conversation in front of the fire for thousands and thousands of years. And that is. That that is what it is it's the conversation. It's it's so, as you said so many times there's so much there's just so much. And I think that's why it's, it's, it's endless it's just this, you can always dive into it, because you don't find the bottom. You realize as you said well it's just everything. And it's like, yeah, it is. And that I think is, that's fine that's that's actually the way it is. You know, yeah. Yeah, you're right this conversation I've been having this conversation for well over 50 years. It's never ending and it's, it's, it's always a good one. Thank you, Eric. That's that's all I want. Yeah, but it's a, I, or maybe another way to put it like a, it gives me a good feeling that that's for you. It was meaningful to talk about this. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. It is, I think it's uniquely human to not just live your life, but to think about living your life. And that's, that's just part of what we do we can't just live. We have to think about how we do that. We think so we are human. Yes. Let me say good night gentlemen it's 120 in the morning where I am. I should be off to bed. I'm, I'm in Thailand. Thailand. So your morning is my evening. No, no. Sleep, sleep. It's been a great pleasure. I'll see you next week. I guess. See you then. Have a good week. Be well. Bye Craig. Bye Eric. Bye Scott. Turn out the lights.