వ్ధనినిండ్సీవని. వ్ప్నిగా. వాిండ్సీవిబె150 earliest. త్పాస్సీథి వాత్సీత్ఫ్సీ. మ్త్సీ వాక్పిటా న్న్సులిఆ పాచ్ త్పిక్పఽికా. contemplation of the key areas of philosophy.ё antibioticsي are electrical problems are the problems which discusses the notion of essence, the underlying essence of reality, that is what is the underlying principle ofолuminess, the underlying essence of the reality as I have discussed earlier about it.  bracken                                                                      fungi º Team Guild  actress ica nd who is initiating this debate in modern philosophy is saying that mind and body are considered as two independent substances in Descartes philosophy. Mind is a substance and the body is also another substance. So far as mind is concerned it does not need the existence of the body and so far as the body is concerned the existence of the body is concerned it does not require the existence of mind. In this case Descartes is raising a philosophical problem and for which he has been criticized that if there are two independent substances then the interaction between the two is impossible. Now the question arises are they categorically independent of each other and what is that defines the notion of substance etc etc. Now let us talk about Descartes substance dualism and according to Descartes substance is something which is simple which is clear and distinct. In other words substance must have a clear distinct existence. Now the clarity, simplicity, distinctness are the three fundamental characteristics of substance according to Descartes. Now how do we talk about substance? According to Descartes we need to define substance as something which is unchangeable, something which is simple and clearly available to us. That is the concept of substance then Descartes metaphysics of mind must go back to Descartes epistemological enquiry. Now why Descartes is interested to talk about substance that which is clear and distinct. Now his interest, his main concern is an epistemological concern because for Descartes knowledge must be simple, distinct, clear and certain. Certainity is something very significant for Descartes. Now if mind exists, if mind is a substance then it must be certain. By certain he means that it is indivitable, it cannot be doubted, we cannot doubt the existence of mind and it is this concept of certainty that Descartes was looking for. Now what kind of method Descartes holds to talk about the nature of substance? Now what kind of epistemological method Descartes is holding? Now epistemology is one of the branches of philosophy as I mentioned earlier that metaphysics is one of the branches of philosophy.  Now when we talk about substance dualism which is metaphysical in nature we need to talk about the epistemological method or Descartes epistemological concern which has a larger influence on developing this theory called substance dualism. Now Descartes epistemology as I mentioned earlier is discussed in meditation on first philosophy. Now here Descartes is trying to prove that if something exists then it must have certainty as one of the essential characteristics of knowledge. Now the question is does the external world exist? Do I exist? Is there something called real about me and the external world? Now these questions are the main question for Descartes. Descartes questioned the reality of our existence. Not only the existence of the external world but also the existence of me as a being in the world. Now this concept of being exist is a metaphysical question. As you know Aristotle discusses this concept of being. Now for Aristotle being refers to the metaphysical or the ontological existence of the reality. Now when Descartes is raising the concept of being whether the world exist or the mind exist he is certainly concerned with this Aristotle in notion of being. This is the essence of this being and how do we know about its existence? How do we rather conform its existence with proper justification that this is something real and therefore this is an epistemological concern for Descartes. And for Descartes epistemology and the metaphysics in fact are related when we talk about his philosophy of mind. Now Descartes while talking about the nature of mind while talking about the concept of certainty of the mind gives us two hypothesis.  Now the dream hypothesis talks about that am I dreaming about my existence that I am here talking to you is just a mere dream experience of mind. As you know when we dream during our sleep we do not really make any distinction between dream and the real life. Dream experiences and real experiences are all found same during the sleep. So Descartes dream hypothesis tells us is it the case that we are all dreaming because dream experiences are as good as our real life experiences. Now Descartes says I am not aware of things which are there during the sleep because during sleep I do as I am dreaming. I am not doing different or performing different actions right now. So there is no distinction between dream experiences, dream activities and the real life activities for Descartes. On the other hand when he talks about the demon hypothesis he says that is there a demon who is deceiving me all the time, who is creating this illusion that there is nothing called a real knowledge. Now Descartes skepticism is certainly a very important thesis for all of us. Skepticism talks about doubt. Skepticism holds this method of doubt as one of the important means of achieving knowledge. One of the important means of realizing what is truth. But Descartes is not a very strong skeptic because there are skeptics who advocates that knowledge is impossible meaning thereby we cannot be certain about any knowledge. Now this kind of skepticism was prevalent during Descartes time but Descartes was not a skeptic in the strong sense of the term skepticism. Descartes skepticism is called methodological skepticism. Descartes is skeptic because he wants to adopt this method of doubt as one of the methods which would have the potential to take us to certainty. So realizing the potentiality of skepticism Descartes probably is bringing methodological skepticism into the discourse of mind to prove that there are substances and the substances are real. So methodological skepticism rules out that these experiences are not illusory. Now how does Descartes do that? As you all know there are many sources of knowledge. So for example sense experiential knowledge. I perceive that there are 50 chairs in this room. I sense that there are 50 students sitting in the class and listening to my lectures. Now these are all about the sense experiences. So I have sense experiences, sense experiential knowledge. Now similar way my sense experiences are not certain all the time. I cannot be certain about my sense experiential knowledge. Rather we cannot be certain about the sense experiential knowledge. The kind of certainty which Descartes was looking for is something very significant. He was talking about pure certainty. Quote and quote this notion of purity is something very specific to the rationalist. Now all rationalist thinkers believe that if something is true and genuinely true then it must be grounded. If it is grounded on reason, sense experience is not the only source of knowledge. It could be faulty, it could be debatable, it could be doubted. Now how does then one overcome this that sense experience and knowledge are indubitable knowledge? What are the cases where sense experiences go wrong? Say for example, when I am experiencing mirrors it gives me this impression that there is water in front of me if I am working on the desert and the shining lights, sun rays creates this impression that there is water in front of me. Now this impression is a kind of an illusion. This is an illusory experiences. So all sense experiences are not therefore correct. So what is correct or what is a kind of a genuine sense experience is something to be discussed, something to be thought about. There is a possibility that I am living in the hallucination all the time. If there is one possibility of living in the state of hallucination there is also a possibility that I am all the time hallucinating about things. In hallucination we can imagine about the existence of something which is there but in reality that may not be there. In hallucination I find that there is a ghost sitting before me and talking to me. There is a chameleon which is sitting before me and dancing. So those kind of hallucinations or hallucinated experiences are quite possible but is it the case that we are all the time hallucinating? Descartes is really throwing a great puzzle to all of us. We need to think about that how the certainty can be achieved, how we can thought about the certainty of our knowledge claims. Descartes also believed that my intuitive knowledge, the knowledge which depends on my mental ability can also be wrong. Say for example when he talks about calculations, a long mathematical calculation if I am given the series to calculate then sometimes we go wrong. We cannot be really certain about it that we have did all correct. So our mental ability can also be proved faulty and therefore dupitable. Now Descartes says testimony is also dupitable. There are testimonial knowledge which are also dupitable in the sense that I do not know, when I am born, I am told rather that you are born on this date, this and this month and this and this year. I am sure all of you might have experienced this that your parents might have told you that yes, this is when you are born. Say 14th august 1972 you were born at the time. Now I have not experienced, it is certainly a case where I have to rely on others, particularly my peers to believe that it is true. And most of the time we took advice from the peers, some of them are correct, some of them are incorrect meaning thereby some of them are wrong. Now therefore Descartes says testimonial knowledge are dupitable, they do not give us certainty. Now doubting all this Descartes prepares a kind of a method and it is this methodological survey which we can tell us what is the certain knowledge. Now as I mentioned that rationalist epistemology believes that reason is the foundation of knowledge and all knowledge, particularly the highest and pure knowledge must be grounded on reason. The rationalist epistemology also believes that there are certain innate ideas which are not derived from experiences. But they are real. For example, the idea of God is one of the innate ideas and we do not derive it from our experience, rather we intuitively gain this knowledge, we intuitively know that there is God. So, rationalist epistemology when talks about certainty, it emphasizes that reason can provide adequate ground to justify what is true knowledge, what is certain knowledge. Now this idea of certainty and truth is something important when we talk about Descartes methodological skepticism. Now as we find Descartes keeps on doubting all varieties of knowledge, so therefore we can say Descartes is preparing a set, a set which includes all doubt and that can be called a universal doubt. This set includes all varieties of doubt, all varieties of knowledge claims which are dupitably, hence it is called a universal doubt. When we doubt things, we can say that there is no doubt, there is no doubt, there is no doubt, there is no doubt. Now in these things, we are unclear about the certainty of knowledge. I am pointing out again and again that certainty is something which Descartes emphasized in his discourse that there must be certainty. Descartes overcomes skepticism, giving priority to certainty, giving priority to truth, so epistemological priority is something very significant to Descartes where Descartes differs from other skeptics. For other skeptics as I mentioned that knowledge is impossible, meaning thereby everything is dupitable. Skeptics do not have this idea that whether there can be a knowledge at all, so Descartes is not that kind of skeptics, rather Descartes gives primacy to epistemological. The epistemological is what I am calling the knowledge which is certain and indubitable knowledge. So, how does Descartes provide the ground to the skeptics? To this epistemological issues. Now, let us see what are the important questions Descartes is encountering when he talks about the certainty. Now, there are three important questions which Descartes finds very significant. They are, who is the author of my thoughts? Is there a God who puts thoughts into me? Am I so bound by my body and to sense that I cannot exist without them? What is the question that Descartes finds? What is my existence? What is my being? Is something significant? Because what constitutes my existence? And how do I know that there is God? Is it just an innate idea? Is it there before my birth, before having any experience? No. Descartes is not simply jumping into conclusions. Hence, the first question is very important. How do I have these thoughts? Who is the author of these thoughts? Is God, the author of these thoughts? . Par ? වඩය සබරල්ගක් now වඩ්ල, වධි වඪතු ලඳහා වඩයල්ල්ල්ල, වනය,වෙල්ලය වනන්ල්ල්ල්ලක්, හසබයු, සම්ලයු, වහයනල්ල්ෆයරටසම වඪතු, වතු, සම්ල්ලන, වන What is next to the method of doubt, keeping these three questions in mind? Now, Dekar says, when I am doubting, can I doubt this doubt, can I doubt my doubting itself? What kind of activity is doubt is? What kind of activity it is when I say that I am doubting, that what I see before me is illusory, it is an hallucination, it is not really correct. Now, how do I say that? Now, there are two kinds of activities. One, let us say physical activities, activities which are performed by certain physical organism. Say for example, you all know plants, they grow, they bear fruits, flowers, they all grow old, they all grow tall and finally, there is a decay. So, when we talk about the biology of life, the biology of the organic beings, we certainly see there is a process involved in it and this is the process, which we are talking about is an activity, is a kind of a natural activity and all natural activities follow a crevice process because nature as a whole follows this principle called the uniformity principle. It is true to all objects that there is a growth and there is a decay and between these two points, there are certain natural processes and these processes are can be called the physical activities of a biological being or a physical being. Now, there are another kind of activities, which is Descartes is concerned with and that activity is called mental activity.  Now, Descartes, how does Descartes conclude that there are two activities? Descartes concludes it when he asks these questions, can I doubt this fact that I am doubting and how do I doubt? Do I doubt because I am a physical being or do I doubt that I am a mental being? My being is something to do with my existence of a mind. So, there is a mind. Now, how does Descartes prove that there is mind? Now, after having this whole set of doubt in his hand, how does Descartes prove that there is mind? Now, doubting is a mental activity and it is different from the physical activities like say walking, talking, dancing, digestion. Now, digestion is certainly a natural process. Working could also be considered as one of the natural processes, blood circulation, palpitations, etc. These are natural processes. Now, whether I know them happening or not it goes on inside my body, so in that sense there are purely some activities which are considered as physical activities and there are certain activities which are considered as mental activities.  Working is a physical activity. Now, Descartes is saying that it is physical because from this I cannot influence the physical activity. Now, if that is so, then Descartes says I cannot doubt my doubt because it presupposes another doubt which is part of this universal set called doubt, the universal doubt. Now, when he says this, he says that I am doubting cannot be derived from my working. I work therefore, I doubt that seems very ridiculous. Now, what is that? I am doubting. I am doubting. I am doubting. I am doubting. I am doubting. I am doubting. I am doubting. I cannot be derived from my working. I work therefore, I doubt. That seems very ridiculous. Now, what is that? Descartes is inferring. Descartes says when I doubt, I think that I doubt. I am aware of this, that I am doubting. Now, this awareness is something very significant for Descartes. It is this awareness which Descartes says is a mental ability that conforms this, that I am doubting. So now, this famous dictum of Descartes, Dibito, Ergo-Cosito, Ergo-Som says I doubt, therefore I think that I am doubting. I am doubting. This is very important for Descartes. I am doubting. I am doubting. I am dubbing. I am doubting. I am doubting. This is very important for Descartes. So, now this famous dictum of Decart's Divito, Ergo Cosito, some says, I doubt, therefore, I think, therefore, I am. So, from doubting, Decart goes to thinking, because thinking is a mental activity, I am aware of this fact, that I am doubting. It is with this Decart says  ändern 。                                                                                f pector provides the certainty and it cannot be derived from physical activities. So, for example, I am walking when he is replying to Gesendi, one of the contemporary for Descartes. He says that from my walking thinking does not follow, because I can walk and think about something else. When I walk that many ways, ഭോ pomoc 對 Personally I didn യവ് person for 12 years and came to my office. I was all the time thinking about how do I give this lecture to all of you, so working and thinking about my lectures are two different activities and they can go simultaneously. There is no logical connection between them with you to I sounded little good, strange, but of course when I work I decide to work. I am aware, if somebody says are you aware of the fact that you are working, probably it takes me some time to think about it that yes I am aware of I am working. But logically speaking that when I work, I can think of something else, at thesan   spacecraft, Grant had an  A teldon — since it is a竹 , ttas  glare i—— ñ       이지 certains  admitsackna Secondly the essential feature of my bi n drawing the question coming to what the eventual feature of my body is if doubting thoughts imagining understanding are all logically differen from the bodily activities are they do not essentially constitute the physical existence Than what is that constitute the ڤ ڤ ڤ ڤ ڤ ڤ ڤ ڤ ڤ ڤ ڤ ڈ ڤ ڤ forgiveness ڤ ڤ ڤ ڤ the physical existence of my body . ڤ What is the essential feature of my body? ڤ Thinking is not of course. ڤ Then Dakar says that it is extension. ڤ Extension is the essence of the body. ڤ My body has a shape. ڈ It has a weight. ڈ It has so many other features and all these features In invari pri pro 就kie 在所ğothin campete Oxcedented is something essential accordingly when we talk about the existence of the body. so existence of the body and the existence of mind are two independent existences they are independent because they are not having same essential features. the essential features of the body is extension and the essential features of the mind which is a thinking substance is thought. thought and extensions are essentially two different features. now it is thinking which causes actions. All actions are not caused by thoughts, as I mentioned earlier, that all actions are not essentially physical or essentially mental, meaning thereby thinking does not cause all the actions. Nutrition, self-movement, like blood circulations, digestions, the growth of the body, they are different. But when it comes to physical, mental, mental, physical, physical, physical, physical, mental, but when it comes to the mental actions, when I decide that I need to give this lecture to all of you, now this decision brings me here, this decision is causing certain physical actions. I am talking to you is a physical action and it is a voluntary action. So, voluntary actions are intentional, but when it comes to mental actions, when I decide that I need to give this lecture to all of you, now this decision brings me here, this decision is causing certain physical actions. I am talking to you is a physical action and it is a voluntary action. So, voluntary actions are intentional and voluntary actions are conscious actions. I am aware of this fact that I am talking to you. I am aware of this fact that I am engaging all of you to listen my lectures. So, these kind of activities flow from my consciousness, my thinking that we are mental being and we can perform certain actions which are voluntary. So, Descartes was certainly interested to know that how we can be certain about our actions, how we can conform that is what I am doing is not wrong, what we are doing can not be debatable. It is because it is based on this proposition that I think. So, thinking is essentially a kind of an axiom. So, it is a kind of an axiom. From which we can derive all kinds of knowledge claims and it is thinking which provides a kind of an objectivity to our knowledge claims. So, and Descartes was certain about it. So, this certainty or objectivity Descartes was trying to achieve, it was through his method of methodological skepticism and Descartes says I am aware of this fact that I am thinking and this knowledge is very personal to all of us that I am aware of this fact that I am thinking. So, what I am precisely is a thinking thing according to Descartes quote unquote what I am is a thinking thing and all that who thinks exist and that conforms my existence. My existence as a physical being depends on my existence that I am thinking. So, I am or I exist is derived from this proposition that I think. So, both are logically related. If I cease to think, then for Descartes I do not exist anymore. So, the suggestion of the thinking would tell me that I am not a physical being anymore. I am an embodied being when I am thinking and performing voluntary actions. Now, this embodiment is a very peculiar kind of embodiment for Descartes. Descartes says that which thinks is the soul and it exists at the center of the pineal gland in the brain and that controls all my voluntary actions that controls my voluntary actions in the sense that I not only sense things, but also reacts according to these impressions. Descartes just talk about the soul which is there at the center of the pineal gland and that controls my physical activities. Now, that is something significant. Now, how Descartes locates that soul as the source of my thinking which is independent of my bodily movement, which is the source of my thinking. Descartes does not control my body movements, but the source of causing voluntary actions. Soul has the power to control my bodily movements. And this idea of soul being at the center can cause many philosophical debates. We will come back to these debates, but what is important for us that to know how Descartes arrived at this certainty following this method of doubt. So, methodological skepticism, which was an epistemological enterprise for Descartes, proved that there are metaphysical realities. There are two substances. Mind is one substance and body is another substance. Mind and body are two independent substances, because mental activities are not controlled by physical activities. Whether when we talk about interaction in the next class, I will come back to this debate that how does mind interact with the body? How does these two substances interact? Can there be an interaction with the body? It is possible if we assume that there are two independent substances and they are categorically different. But it was certainly interesting that Descartes is posing a great problem to all of us to think that mind is logically independent of the body. The existence of mind is something very unique and it is located at the center of the brain. And that is the source of all my voluntary actions. And that can conform all kind of certainty. And I would have a clear and discerned distinct ideas about its existence. The existence does not depend on my sense experiences. This existence rather is something very unique. It is the ability of the mind that conforms, that sense, the presence of this fact that I am thinking. That is something very unique. And I think we should come back to this debate How the modern philosophers like Janet and Searle are opposing to this idea of the centrality of the self or the I or I as a thinking being exist will come back. Thank you very much.


You look like an alligator. A Persian gazelle. I think it would be a bee. It's got to be a dragon, doesn't it? A unicorn. I would say a lion. A hippo gazelle hybrid. So this is a giraffe. I would say Sawas is a horse. An Arabian stylin', fast and beautiful. Huge congratulations, everyone. Today is very much your day. So enjoy it. The most Sawas thing I've seen is people that have got Apple computers queuing up for like 40 minutes to get free food at Harry Krishnan. In the library, people barefoot. People walking barefoot around the building. Walking barefoot. They've got a sandwich on one hand. They're printing their work and they're bare feet. Yeah, that's very Sawas. One time we were studying in Senate House and suddenly the King of Nigeria came in and he was just touring Senate House. I feel like that's probably the most Sawas thing I've seen. Yeah, that was really memorable. Well, I think everything is kind of strange. You just get used to it, so nothing is strange anymore. All that hard work has paid off. And I know that for some of you, it's been tough. There have been highs and there have been lows. I think if Sawas has taught me anything, it's that nothing is what you expect. I feel you've become a lot more accepting and open-minded to all different types of people. Well done. You made it. It's been three long years, but you've persevered and you've triumphed and today is the day to celebrate. So well done. I would say that Sawas has given me a lot of perspective. Seeing different people, hearing their views out Sawas here has sort of prepared me for that step ahead. So yeah, I don't think any other university in the world could have prepared me the way Sawas has. I just want to wish you all really good luck in your futures. We all know it's a tough environment out there, but you need to have confidence in your learning, your abilities, all the skills that you've developed over the past few years. So my message to all the graduates is congratulations. Well done and you've made us all very proud. I am genuinely upset. I've never been so upset about anything. Of course, I'm feeling quite nostalgic, but I'm ready. I'm ready to move on. Keep in touch with us. Do everything that you can and we're all really proud of all the things we know you're going to go on and achieve. I'm actually pretty excited to leave. I've had a brilliant time studying here, but it's kind of like an end of a chapter and I feel really happy to move on to my next one. I don't think you ever really fully leave Sawas. I think it's quite an intense environment in a nice way, but I definitely feel like I'm ready to move on. Appreciative, grateful, gratitude, actually, that's the main thing. I hope that you've learnt enough schools to interrogate the world, but also to contribute to the positive well-being of the world. Get out there and do it. Be audacious, do what you love to do and help to make the world a better place. It's been my dream just walking across that stage, you know, in my graduation gown and making my parents and my family and my friends proud, so it would definitely be really emotional and beautiful. I was a parent once in this very whole 15 years ago, attending the graduation of my daughter and I'm remembering this day vividly now and to every parent in the whole, well done and thank you very much. I hope that your years at Sawas have given you a taste of the kind of perseverance that you will need going forward and increased self-confidence. Drop your shoulders, hold your head up high and enjoy every step of the way along the amazing adventure you're about to start. I'm confident that the years here at Sawas will have given you a solid basis for a wonderful future. It's going to be amazing to actually walk through that stage and go, you know what, I can do anything, I've made it. I'm ready for the royal world. So go out there and grab life in the way that only Sawas students can. Enjoy today. Remember to keep in touch with us here at Sawas. We are so proud of you and make sure you remember to thank your family, your friends and colleagues who have all made this possible.


The president's budget proposal eliminates public media funding. Learn how you can help at lptv.org slash action. If you're trying to figure out how you can make a difference in someone's life, then the Volunteer Recruitment Fair was the place to be. The Haven Wood Care Center was the site of the inaugural Volunteer Fair. Landed the Dancing Sky Area Agency on Aging received a grant to promote volunteerism. The fair allowed the public to meet with several agencies in Bemidji and learn about their volunteering opportunities. There are many benefits to volunteering. Number one, getting people out of the house, just promoting self-worth. It's a very positive experience. A lot of people I've met with that are doing volunteering. They are telling me that they get so much back in volunteering. Landed the Dancing Sky will host eight volunteer fairs before the end of April. If you've enjoyed this segment of Lakeland News, please consider making a tax deductible contribution to Lakeland Public Television.


The writer program takes you a user input describing a card, playing card in the following shorthand notation. So if you know you're playing cards, right? So if you enter, this is the enter here, this is the input, enter a card notation. If you put a QS, then you are going to print the result of a queen of spades, OK? So QS, so you check here if it's a Q, then you replace the queen if it's S and of spades, right? If you get AC, there will be an Ace of clubs. If it's a number between two and 10, then let's say we get seven, there will be seven S, so it'll be seven of spades, OK? You're going to print that out. So we will map that to these numbers and then you print the correct name and then also the correct suits down here. OK, so let's see if we can think about how do we tackle this problem using functions. Of course, you can write this using non-functions, but so the purpose is to use functions. So get back to your basic stuff, those three steps, right? Input output stuff. So input here, the input process, output. So we know the output what's going to be like. This is the output, right? So I mentioned way back in Unit 1 that usually when you do your program, you're going to spend your time designing the interface, what it's going to look like. If you know that, then OK, so this is my output and this example is really simple. So basically you just want print statement. So in my output, I'm going to have a function to maybe just say print result, right? That's all it does. And maybe I'll just do that. So inside here, you can do a function, say a def, a define, print, result like I mentioned earlier. Now, what do I need to print this to the console? I need to print the card, which is the card, and the suit. Well, I guess this would be like the rank, right? If you want to call it rank, I guess what you refer to in cards.  So in my print statement, in this case, I need to do something like print the rank, and then you could put here the rank, and then comma, and then the word off, and then the suit, something like that. I mean, for this example, it would be really simple like that, right? So that means when I print this function, I have to pass to this function, in this case, two things, right? Two things. And I need the rank, and I need the suit. So I can print it out to the console. So in this example, it would be a very simple print statement. If you want to decorate it, you can print in multiple lines, but this is good for this part. And so to test it, you can say, OK, print result, I'm going to say queen, and then it would have actually the whole word, right? Queen of spades, something like that. And when you run it, you're going to see the result over here. That's a result that you want to use. OK, but of course, we're not going to manually put this in here. I'm just showing you how that's going to do. So that's the output, the input. So we're going to read that from the user, and this is the text. So over here then, instead of saying just get the input, I'm going to use the function to read the input. So you do something similar, maybe get card, right? And then inside here, you need to set the card to an input statement. This is something that we've done before, and this is the text here. And I'm not going to do any validation here, but we do want to convert that to uppercase, so upper. OK, so once you get the card, and the reason why I put the word get here, as you can see, here I'm just printing, when you print a result like this, when a function that has now returned something is a passive function, right? You think about if you give an instruction to somebody to do something for you, then you say, here's my key. Take my card and go home, right? So that instruction is very passive. You're not expecting that person to come back, so there's no returning back. The other one here, I'm getting a card.  I request it, I need something back. OK, so here's my card. Go buy us some coffee. I expect coffee to come back, and also my card, right? So in this case, once you read the card into this card variable, then you need to return it to where? You don't care, right? You don't care where. Whoever needs it, whoever requested it is going to get the card, OK? That's where functions are very specific to what they do, and they don't have any clue what's going on outside of that little world. They only know that, OK, I get something, I do what I'm supposed to do, I'm done. So this will be the get card. You can also call it get input if you want to, but again, if you want to make it more specific, then this would be a better option. OK, so I get that, and then the processing part is you're going to use this card. You're going to receive two characters, like Q and S, and use that to determine using this chart here. So if it's A, then you want to return the word S and J and so on. If it's between 2 and 10, then you just basically return the card value, which is the number itself, OK? And that is the first character, right? The first character, you check for those. The second character, you're going to check for these suits down here, OK? So the process part then, you're going to have a function, maybe something like, I'm going to have two functions, one to get the rank. So you can do something again, say I get rank, and then when I get the rank, well, I need something to check it out, right, to check the rank with. What do I need to check? Well, I need to check these values. These are the actual card. So these are the rank, right? So I can say, OK, I need the rank, whatever that value is. Then I can check those against a list of something. So here you would do, say if the rank is equal to an A, right? Then you're going to return the word Ace. And you do that for all of those ranks, OK? So notice that if you do something like this, if it's a if statement follows by a single statement or a very short like this, I mean, this is OK. Let me copy this. You can see, sometimes it's easier to see this way, but sometimes it's not. I mean, if it's a king, K, that's a king, right? So in this case, if you just have one return statement that it's OK to do it this way using a single line, it's actually cleaner to do it this way, instead of using two lines, because all I'm doing is bang, bang, bang, right? If it's A, return, go, done, OK? So basically, the line looks cleaner and actually shorter. So I'm going to copy this and print a couple of times. If it's A, it's a king. If it's a jack, and it's a queen. So this would be a jack, queen. And then, oh, I think that's it, right? If it's anything else, then it must be the numbers, right? Between 2 and 10. So in that case, you don't have to check it. You just say, OK, if that's the case, just return it back. It must be a number, not A, J, and king, queen. So you return the number back. Again, well, assuming there's no one here, we don't use one. We just have to make that perfect in the entry point. So there you go. That's my function to return the rank. And then I need to get another function to return the suit, right? So same thing. This is if we get suit and need the suit. It'll be passed to this function and same as above. Because if its suit is S, then return spades. And you can copy this four times. So heart, club, and diamond. Oh, I'm going to get only those four, right? So those are my functions to process my information. And then now is, OK, so where do you start? So these are all my functions, you do my stuff. And then this is where your main function comes in. So again, down here, this is my main function, what I do here. And then somewhere down here at the very bottom is the entry point to my program. Call it main, and then the main function invoke here. So I will start here. So the first thing you do is you're going to get the input, right? So I'm going to get the card. So I can say a card here equals to get card. I call that function. And that function up here is going to return the card back to me. That's what it does. It comes back. I got the card. After that, I need to find the suit and the rank. So I just call those. So I'll say, you know, suit, I use the same variable name, is equal to get suit. And it's going to be the card of the second parameter. So I could put up here and be like the rank first. And I'm passed to that the rank of zero, the card of zero, right? If QS, I'm passing the card of the Q letter to that function. So Q comes in here. It matches the Q, returns the word queen, returns it, right, return queen. And then now the rank has the word queen. And then now I pass the second letter S to this function. And it says spades. So I have returned spades to the word suit here. And then finally, I call this print function to print the result. So I can say print result. It needs the rank and the suit. And it prints that out. OK, so we can give it a test and see if this works. So here we go, and put QS just like in the example here. And there it is. This is the queen of spades. And if I run again, if I try a ace of club. So there's ace of club. And let me try the number. Let me just say it's seven of diamonds. There it is.


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Aaron now ten in a row for this team. What's been the common thread that's helped lead to the success over this win streak. Well I think we've pitched well for starters. You know our starters have done a great job the bullpen you know different guys and you know different big spots every night have come through by and large. And I feel like we're swinging the bats. You know. Thought you know it was tough tonight. Some big at bats obviously G gets us off to the start and then a huge at bat to to give us the lead there with the double Gary with a really good patient at bat to add on some insurance runs there but it's been.  You know all 26 guys in there are playing important roles in this and having big hands and helping us win ball games and that's that's a fun thing to be a part of. You mentioned that it is the entire roster. What's the feeling like amongst the club when you have different contributors almost every night. I think I think it's great. I think it's I think it helps. I think it helps you know build some whether it's energy camaraderie. Knowing that you know guy one through 26 is going to be counted on and chances are maybe in a big spot and everyone's coming with a real focus of you know do your job get ready for the game get ready for a situation and and I feel like guys are locked in with that mindset of what can what can I do to help us win a ball game today. Couple big defensive plays in the outfield tonight Gallo I believe in the second inning judge in the third inning what have you thought the way of the way that judges transition to center field when you need him in that position it almost seems like he's kind of making it look easy.  I mean great break on a great route. You know Joey's play down the line was terrific. So it's nice to see the jumbo package out there really playing well. Obviously you know judgy love sliding over there. He's comfortable. Most most outfielders are comfortable at least going to center field but he's got all the you know athleticism and fundamentally sound to go play it well and he's done a great job. Aaron we saw a big smile from you right after the game there. I know winning is fun but the way you've been winning with the execution and the professionalism does that make it more satisfying. Look winning is hard in the league. So I mean there's nothing better than you know a lot of people pouring a lot into hopefully shaking hands at the end of the night. You know that's kind of the focus and the goal. So whether it's you know we've won some ugly at times and you take those and sometimes you feel really good about those when it's not easy and but there's no question. I think when you're playing clean baseball and and again I think when everybody on the roster is playing an important role. That's made it nice. Aaron that home run from Stanton in a second. Did you think that was gone off the bat. I did. Yeah he's a unicorn. You know he does things every night that are a little bit different than anyone else. And that was one of those that you know almost hit in the restaurant down the line and right field. That's that's a pretty good poke on. I think it was a slider down the way maybe. So it was a really good swing he put on that ball. You get descents ties to the force with which he hits the ball and does some of these things. Does it sort of become you know John Carlow being John Carlow or is it still sort of a staunchy approach to the level. Yeah I don't think I've been desensitized.  But every time he hits one I think everyone gets a kick out of going to the board how hard he hit it you know like a lot of times you miss it and like what was that one. So I don't think I have been desensitized to it. Aaron do you think that John Carlow's offense has been helped by him getting some regular reps in the outfield. I don't know I mean maybe. I know he's enjoyed being out there. I know his body is handled it well. You know whether you know as soon as we started doing it we knew there was you know you always know there's going to be a conclusion drawn and it's because he's in the outfield he is doing this or isn't doing that. Sometimes it's just baseball and the ebb and flow of the season and when you have a good player he's going to go through some stretches where he's swinging the bat really well. That said it's very possible that being out there has helped him a little bit but but I don't think it's a definitive yes or no. I guess I asked the standpoint that designated long time designated here is talked over the years about it can be difficult to stay in the game because they're not out there. I think I think if anything maybe physically it's helped him. You know I think moving around and keeping his body going in the game. I think that's you know been something that's I think beneficial for him you know and and in all these games especially because we've been winning and stuff you know like you know for the most part he's he's been out of there in the seventh eighth inning. So it's that's probably helped keep him fresh a little bit too. But I think he's just in a really good frame of mind and in a good place in the batter's box and you know and and that and he's played a really good outfield for us to he's it's been a seamless transition right back out there. Looks like he's been playing regularly all all year the last couple years so that's been really good to see how he's handled it how his body's responded and you know that it up he's playing really well for us right now.


Welcome folks. I've gone ahead and stuck a link into the chat for the meeting minutes. So while we're waiting to get started, if you guys could go add yourself there, that would be fantastic. For those watching, how are you? Good? Just hang it up. Hey. So just so folks remember, we do record this call and it does get posted to YouTube. So keep that in mind as well.  They link for the meeting minutes. So you can go add yourself there as well. See peer pressure. Also, as always, if folks have things they would like to see added to the agenda, then please feel free to go ahead and add them. In particular, we're trying to track and report on the things that landed the past week and the things that are in progress. So if there are things that are not already on the agenda that match the exposed criteria, please add them there. I want to make sure we give everybody calls out, call outs for the good work they do and that we get some senses of community of what's coming down the line. Do we get going for it, Rick? Yep, let's get started. So, welcome to the next Network Service Session meeting. So we have this particular meeting which occurs every week at 8 a.m. Pacific. We are also involved in the telecom user group which occurs every first Monday at 8 a.m. and every third Monday at 4 a.m. We are also involved with the CNCF Networking Working Group which is currently being rebooted. So we will have time, but we'll know what time that comes on pretty soon. So... Also, is anyone able to share the meeting minute so we can all follow along as we go? Yeah, we'll continue on while we wait for somebody to generously share meeting minutes. So, major events that are coming up. So we had a CNCF webinar recently. I believe we're waiting for that to be posted. So... I think everything's posted already? Yeah, I think they posted it the same day. Oh, cool. Yeah, let me go find the link. We actually have a playlist of NSM videos that they've put together. I didn't even realize this till last week. Nice. Yeah, it is here. We should probably ask if they'd be willing to split the meetings from the events, but not too important at this point. So we also have... So we also completed, sorry. We also have open source summit coming up in Leon with a talk accepted by Ivana and Radoslav, which is an introduction to NSM. So if you are going to be there, definitely feel free to show up. Whoever is sharing, we're currently seeing your code, not the meeting minutes. Strange. Okay. The good news is it's all open source code. No, no, the code is open source. That's all fine. It's just... It looks like a smash, actually. So kudos for actively working during the meeting, Radoslav, that's appreciated. But there we go. So if you ever want to know what we're doing. So, cool. Sorry, my audio is doing a couple of weird things. Can you still hear me? Yeah. Perfect. So we also have KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America. They're coming up where we have NSMCon announced and we have the call for papers have already, or proposals have already been closed and the talks have already been posted for both KubeCon and NSMCon. So feel free to take a look at the schedule and definitely let us know what excites you as well. We have KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe in March and April coming up, which is going to be in Amsterdam. The call for proposals is already open. And so that's why we're calling it out at this point. And I believe the calls for proposals, I think in the January... Who deleted? No, the end in November. Oh, in November? Okay. Who did the calls for proposals? Who deleted this? It was there just a minute ago. Yeah, it was definitely there. There it is. Okay. Sorry, I was trying to pick up and I cleaned up the wrong set of things. I was trying to clean up the KubeCon North America piece and instead made a complete mess of it. We should probably get links to the CFPs as well. Yeah. Oh, I made a mistake. The notifications are in January, but make sure you have your proposal in by November 22nd. Yeah, this means that before you go to KubeCon North America, you should send your proposals for the next KubeCon already. Exactly. I would expect to at least go to North America, see how things are going, maybe, I don't know, figure out what the next things are that we want to talk about, but I don't know. Okay. Yeah, I think it's the size. So the larger that the event gets, the more further out ahead they wanna plan and KubeCon's getting huge. Yes, but they also, they move the dates like two months ahead. At the end of May, it's like end of March. So it's, yeah. Cool. If anyone knows of any other events, let us know. So we also have the social media community team. And I believe I saw Lucina on the call. So you have the floor. Hello. Yes. Great. Okay, thank you. So the last week, we gained a few more followers, 14, followed about 15 more and posted tweets and retweets, 21. And I posted, and there's links to all the new posts. So posted the pre-registration for NSMCon, be sure to add that to your KubeCon registration. And the $50 fee will go to the CNCF diversity scholarship fund. The, I've also posted on the webinar, October 2nd, I thanked our lunch sponsor Juniper Networks and also sent out a thank you to the four different network service, network service mesh con sponsors. So this week I plan to promote the individual sessions and speakers that were selected in the lineup for NSMCon. I'll promote the sessions at KubeCon and send more reminders to pre-register to NSMCon and also promote the sessions at open source summit in Europe later on in this month. So when available, I'd like to share a link to the Telcom TV interview from ONS. If there was a video of the 5G panel from Linux Foundation Networking, I'd like to share that as well. I did retweet the ONS keynotes link and the contributors podcast when that's available, I'd like to share that as well. This is all fantastic. You just do such an amazing job helping us. It's very much appreciated. Also, in addition to all of this, you pointed out a nasty bug in the website in terms of being able to copy and paste text which I think is now fixed. Oh, wonderful. Thank you so much. Oh yeah, it was one of those things.  Yeah, we share everything except for the ability to copy and paste on our website. Yes. So that should be fixed now. That's awesome. That'll make everything easier. Thank you so much. Great. So the other thing that may help you as well, I noticed you've been taking screenshots, but the anchors used to over scroll, that's also been fixed. So links will show the things that you want them to show. Perfect. Cool. So we have announcements. Do we still have fuzzing bugs available? I believe we do. These are great bugs for beginners because they pretty much tell you exactly where to look and they tend to be things like, there is some sort of unusual mill check that needs to go, there's a mill check that needs to happen or something like that. So these should be very, very good beginner bugs for people to get started. We've been sort of intentionally holding them open so the beginners can grab them and work on them. Obviously we'll go and fix them before the release if it comes to that, but they make really good things if you just want to pick up and try some stuff. By the way, I noticed we had a lot of additional folks showing up, so I'll replace the link to meeting minutes for folks so you can add yourself to the meeting minutes. So please do add yourselves there. Well, so we have the status of the project. So, Ed, you have the floor. Cool. So this is one where, again, folks, please feel free to add your stuff. I'm not sure I caught everything going by, but the first one I wanted to mention is we've probably noticed we've been having some in-domain testability issues that came out of the blue that didn't appear to be related to any code changes that we've made and they were all happening, I believe, in AWS. And so I think Artem has finally chased them down. We've got a candidate for what may be the root cause having to do with some wonkiness in an update that AWS made to it, CNI. Do you want to say a few words about that, Artem? Or not? As far as I know, Artem today is only listening. Oh, that's fine. That's fine. Some issues. Yeah, so effectively, Artem figured this out. It's a very obscure kind of problem. He's really good at those. We think this is the root cause and he's currently attempting a fix that would downgrade to the previous releases CNI. It's a pretty good indicator it was the root cause that the upgrade to AWS CNI happened at exactly the same time that our in-domain tests started having issues. But this is why we test on a bunch of different platforms so that we catch things like this. And currently the tests have been disabled while we work on fixing the issue because there's no point in failing the code changes that have nothing to do with this CNI failure. Cool. Any questions on that? All right. So things that I noticed that landed this week. So do you want to say a little bit, Radoslav, about the kernel forwarder support for metrics? Yeah. So basically it's gotten worse. But it sounds like it was very complicated. Yeah. I think we slowed down that a bit. But yeah, again, it got merged. So it introduces metrics support for the kernel forwarder. So I used the model that VPP was using with this source dash something and destination dash something, that model. So it's the same and it should be interchangeable. Fabulous. Have you talked to Matthew Rohan? I don't know whether or not he's planning on doing any updates to the Skydive support. No, I haven't talked to him, no. It might be worth reaching out to him and see if he'd be interested in showing some of the metrics on those links. It's the kind of thing that he often likes. He's been very kind to us on the Skydive front. Plus he knows the Skydive community people. They may even do it. The Skydive community has been incredibly generous with us. Okay. Yeah. I will reach for him. Excellent. If I can add just a couple of sentences here. So first, this is actually, I mean after Ivana figured out that there's some issues with the way that the VPP agent based forwarder exposes metrics, actually doesn't expose metrics to there. Yeah. This is the first time that we have some actually working metrics based on the infrastructure that did exist essentially. So I was really used to that was existing. And based on this, essentially Ivana has prepared a set of patches in a PR, I believe. Ivana that actually adds exposing these metrics in a prometheus database. Oh, that's fantastic. Could we add that to the in progress section? I'm current. It was finished, but I'm currently trying to build a specific latest master. I'm having some issues with that, but yeah. Oh, okay. It's up to me. It's up to me. But I have some more to module and other issues hitting today. Awesome. Could you please add it to the in progress so that we can follow up on the next meetings and see just how the link there is useful and then we'll take it. Adding it to the in progress is super helpful because that's the first place I go looking for things that have actually landed this week. And then of course, if we can do this, like if we can help Matthew base his work on top of this and show some link statistics, that would be awesome for everyone, I believe. And I would love to also see, I presume that your patch has an optional way for us to install prometheus so we can go look when we're playing on our own and see the prometheus metrics land. Yeah, that would be fantastic. Yeah, Ivana, I don't know about prometheus, what was I mean, we talked about health charts and stuff. Yeah, I did them and I'm trying to test them, yeah. Okay, looking forward to see the PR and review it, actually. They're upstream, but I have some things to tidy up. It's the CIS failing. Okay, cool, cool. That's awesome. So no, metrics are super important, observability is super important. So I'm delighted to see the stuff finally landing. And the good news is we should hopefully get a fix for VPP agent that will look to those metrics as well so that we can get that working too. But I'm glad that you guys continued moving all this forward because it's important to get it done. I think that VPP agent metrics are coming soon. Hopefully you'll share with me from the legato community. Cool, excellent. So the next one on landed this week is the vastly improved build times. Do you want to say a few words about this, Ilya? Oh, yes, I can. Now we built binaries on host machine and then just copy the binary file to the Docker image that helped us to improve the speed of building. And also in the PR I removed many old targets that we had in K8 makefile. And I think that's all for it. I think that improve is a very weak word here. It's like, I don't know, maybe jetpacking the build or something like this. So I did run some local numbers myself before and after because I was curious and I have almost the perfectly optimal build environment. I've got a very fast laptop, I have a very fast internet connection. And if I cleared out my Docker cache before and started from a cold Docker cache, it was taking me 15 minutes to build everything. Make K, save. With this new patch, 15, 15, yeah. With this new patch that vastly improves the build times, it's down to a minute or less from a cold build. It's just incredibly faster. Have you tried doing minus J4 or something like this because actually this works now? Oh, no I haven't. That's awesome. Now I'm really excited. Oh, no, that's even more exciting. Great job. Thank you guys. Thank you, that's really, yeah. Okay, J16. My laptop isn't that cool. Very cool. Cool, so next up, we had some open tracing improvements. Do you wanna say some things about this, Andrei? Yeah, a bunch of open tracing improvements that both the SDK and the NSM. And actually I'm almost finished with the SDK like approach for the NSM request and close. It's in a pull request at the moment and we'll be looking at where you guys. So it's do the same as we have a SDK for the endpoints but do for the entire chain of the requesting and closing network service requests. So for now, open tracing shows pretty cool actually traces. I can have a short demo if I can share my screen. So the Slavkuli please on the screen for a moment. I will show how the open traces look at the moment. Okay. Done, yeah. Okay, do you see my screen? Yep. Okay, nice. So this trace for pretty complex scenario when the data plane is die on the remote side. So firstly, we do requesting a connection. So we can figure out on any place what's happening on by looking to the attached logs and so on. After for example, we see with data plane down stuff. We know what is doing sending remote connection update with the data plane is down. And on the Kubernetes master node, we receive events and when we receive the event when the plane is die, we know what to do with healing and do the healing itself with all the stuff and you can figure out what's happening and mostly in real time. And if any error will occur, it will be marked here in open tracing as the error. So it's more obvious what to do with all the chain. Yeah, so I mean, I think that what's really amazing about this is rather than having to fish through logs to figure out what's going on, when you have any kind of a problem, you can literally get down to the individual subpart of the code and what it was doing where the error originated through the system. And or you can also see what goes in and goes out at every step plus any logs that are happening at any step. Yeah, one more interesting point here is we just need to spam identifier from our init container. So for example, clients do the request the first time and any healing like data plane down and so on happening inside the NS manager will be automatically added to the first traces when we requested the connection. So all the life cycle with healing will be automatically attached here. Oh, fantastic. That is really, really awesome. This should make it much easier to track down what's going on inside the system. So one quick question. Have we looked at the possibility of being able to export and attach the open tracing when we have CI failures? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually it just could be added. The trace could be downloaded by using just the cool stuff. So I wanted to do it next to just to download all the spans. I need just the JSON and it could be imported by the Jagger UI just by putting the JSON file here to track what is happening. So the idea- Yeah, it will be next step for, I'm not sure if it will be a good idea to include for all possible tests, but I think about improving the cloud testing stuff to do if a test is failed to enable tracing and run it with traces. Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, basically, if we have test failure, that's probably when you would want to do it. Run it with traces, yeah. Yeah, because then we can literally say, okay, well, we had a test failure, what happened? And you can drill straight into the trace and figure out what happened, which should make it easier to track down test failures. Cool, that's, I find that very exciting, but I'm highly excited by things that make it quicker and easier to develop. And to operate, I mean, don't just estimate that part. That's true. I mean, there's definitely operability considerations here as well, because now if you've got some problem that goes wrong in the system, you can see exactly where it went wrong. It should hopefully lead to much more interesting bug reports as we start getting those in from the field. Yeah. Yeah. Makes more of a pause. Yep. Okay, that's the kind of work we're looking for. Yeah, indeed. Cool. And then we had the SDK style refactoring of the VP Asian data plane. We had that land this week. Do you want to say a few words about that, Denise? Probably I think Denise has some troubles with your audio today. Yeah, the SDK refactoring was merged. Next one will be the SDK like refactoring for my stuff for entire MSM. Yep. And probably Radoslav will have to inspect this refactoring and can figure out how the kernel folder could be and should be aligned with this thing. I think that that patch, trying to remember, I want to say that that patch actually did, at least to make sure that nothing broke in the kernel forwarder. Yeah, of course. That's not the point. The point is like to also refactor it in the same way so that they all look like, you know. No, that would be much appreciated. I think there was also, I want to say I suspect that Radoslav was actually part of the conversation on that PR, but I'm not sure. Yeah, he was. Okay, good. So that's good. Cool. So that's the stuff that landed this week that came to my attention. Is there anything else landed this week that folks wanted to talk about? I don't have anything that landed this week, but I have a question because I would have to probably drop in a couple of minutes. So I just wanted to ask, I put it on the bottom here, but I just want to bring it up with the community in general. Of course, I think that it would be a longer discussion probably, we should, you know, next time probably. So essentially I was talking to some guys around here on conference, et cetera. And I got a pretty complicated question that essentially boils down to how do we deal with noisy neighbors? Like, we don't have any quality of service notion like SLA guarantees. I know that we have been saying, okay, so this is not, this is a function. This is not our thing, et cetera. But essentially providing some guarantees about a bandwidth or something probably is not that far from what we want to do with NSM. So I don't know, maybe it's a longer discussion. Maybe we need to create a PR spec, whatever. But they've been just in kind of initial thoughts from the community here, what everyone is thinking about. It's a very initial, it's definitely an important question and it's a very interesting question. And some of it is, and I think you've partitioned it correctly, right? Because there are two places you might stick cost-related stuff. One of them is in the NSM forwarders and then the other one would be in the particular NSCs. And in fact, I think we have a talk at NSMCon where someone has actually stuck some interesting cost discovery stuff into an NSC and they'll be talking about that there. So though- I mean, how the NSC is going to prevent me from floating with just a random broadcast packets, just- That's the question of the forwarder side. The comment I was making about the NSC side, I think there's potentially something there for both of them. The other comment I'll make, having dealt with a lot of QoS over the years as a really deep networking guy and having dealt with a lot of really low level forwarders is that QoS is almost never the answer. Sometimes it is, but it's almost never the answer because it turns out simple QoS things like policers are very useful, right? Basically saying, I won't let you flood me out. Complicated QoS things like RSVP where you're trying to reserve the bandwidth across a complicated system, those are almost universally a bad idea. So, you know, and because the interesting thing about QoS is in a really high performance forwarder, doing whatever you're doing for QoS actually consumes way more resources than it would take to just service the packets appropriately anyway. It's really software forwarders. But policers are potentially very interesting. You know, policers and shapers are potentially very interesting in the system. So I think there's definitely a really interesting conversation to be had here around what we might want to do. So yeah, that is interesting. But the reason I sort of made the initial comment of QoS is almost never the answer is at least half the time when someone wants to talk to me about QoS, they want to talk about the complicated RSVP version of QoS that's been sort of a universal fail. We can also look at some of the building blocks as well. So if we take a look at how NSM is built, we know which streams come from where, not only from an individual endpoint, but also across a whole flow of packets. And we also have all of the monitoring primitives there as well. So it may be possible to have something that can monitor the overall quality of a connection at a high level from end to end. And if we see that there's issues with noise or something similar, it should be possible to get enough context on any given connection and any given node that we can then have something, try to remediate in a variety of different ways. But the first part is getting all the primitives there so that we can measure it without destroying the overall performance of the system. And so. This is almost certainly going to be more interesting coming from an NFU perspective than an enterprise perspective. NFU guys potentially could produce an amount of traffic that would produce these kinds of noisy neighbor problems as they're flowing through a CNF. There's just no way that an enterprise app is going to produce enough traffic to matter. They just can't drive enough traffic compared to the speed in which the forwarder can forward. So, but this gets to be even more interesting when we start getting the hardware next stuff in because right now, if you really want to be driving enough traffic through the box to have this be an issue, you can't have the kernel in the way, right? It just doesn't work. So, but I think this is a very good question.  My initial thought would be that maybe a cost context might be the way to handle it as part of the connection context. Just kind of requesting bandwidth or kind of, I wanted to guarantee this standard. Well, I mean, you have to be careful about what people believe when you say things like requesting bandwidth. Because again, we can give them shapers and policers, but I don't think we can actually guarantee bandwidth. Okay, best efforts. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it's sort of the difference between the RSVP approach versus the policers and shapers that actually do kind of work. Because if you say, I can guarantee you bandwidth, that could mean a number of things. It could mean things like, I guarantee you bandwidth through your forwarder, I guarantee you bandwidth out of the box, from here to the actual physical network. Most people who want to guarantee bandwidth really want to end the guarantees, but then you're into the world of RSVP and we all know how that story ends. So, you know, but it's an interesting, it's an interesting problem to think of if we can think of something smart there. I'm totally open to exploring possible solutions as long as we don't go down.  So, at least my understanding is that this is not something that we want immediately. It's just kind of an open question that probably people are going to ask more and more. If someone asked me, then probably there will be someone else that will figure it out and say, okay. But more importantly, take us a while to think about it. So getting the idea seated and just thinking about it is really important. It's not going to be something that we figure out a fast solution to. I mean, I sort of cavalierly said, we could add a cost context, but that's actually not the hard part of the problem. Yeah, and I suspect some of these requirements come from some historic areas. Like, you look at something like ATM. Like ATM, you can give you a guarantee that a certain circuit will hit a certain level of bandwidth. And when you look at the line of thinking over time, the ATM crowd shifted towards the MPLS and then eventually are shifting towards something like SRV6 and so on. And so some of those thoughts I think are still prevailing from that concept of I want a dedicated circuit that provides me a thing. Exactly, but it's also very rigid and doesn't allow for the system to basically refactor itself over time as the conditions change. Okay, I don't know if it's a balance. Yeah, I see where you're going, but it's a slightly more telco-like kind of point of view. And it's absolutely valid, whatever you're saying. I think it's that specific context where I had these conversations mostly about, okay, I live in the clouds and you give me a network link. I want to be sure that I'll be able to send my five packets when I want them. Not that all the bandwidth will be taken by my neighbor that actually is doing some weird stuff there. Yeah, it's interesting. And the thing is, it's not just the ATM guys. If anybody who's ever dug into DOCSIS and how cable modems work, like those guys, like they do cost, like you would not believe. If the DOCSIS guys tell you that you can have 10 bytes every 10 milliseconds plus or minus one millisecond, that is exactly what you will get.  I have no idea. I mean, I'm sure they have applications where it matters, but man, are they really serious about that? Okay, that's a conversation to be continued, I believe. Yeah, good to raise. I think the short answer is if they need DOCSIS, we can pair them to it. Well, but the interesting thing about DOCSIS is even DOCSIS doesn't try and really give you end end. It's giving you the moral equivalent of a single link. That cost is the moral equivalent of the cost you get on the last hop, which is part of why they were so amazingly successful at it. Yeah, that makes sense. Cool, that's a good discussion. And thank you for raising it before you had to drop. So looming back to in progress, so the API discussion stuff is continuing. I think what I'm probably going to do just to start moving that ball forward is break out just the API piece as a PR, so that we get something we can merge and then do one for the helpers and then do one for the sort of converters and compatibility layer. And then we have the pieces in so we can start looking at the strategy we discussed last week of wrapping things in the various adapters. So we did an extensive discussion of the API stuff last week, if folks wanna go back and look into that. And then the slides are actually up there. You can go take a look at them as well, they're linked here. The next up is for you, Andre, the network style, SDK style refactor of network service manager. Yeah, I think the PR are mostly ready. So today I've working on last two tests failed inside it. So I hope it will pass the ACI and it will be looked at more carefully. I have made few attempts to make it into smaller pieces but it actually took more and more time. So I would I think ask you guys to try review it in the current shape. About 16 changed files at the moment. Most of them are pretty simple since it's adjusted different chains of operations like data plane programming or assigning quick connection or creating quick cross-connect and so on. So most complicated changes are related to the monitors and how it is handled. But in general, it become more easy to read and to understand better before. So I hope it will go in this way. Well, that's excellent. Awesome. So then, excellent. So we've got the Ethernet context stuff and I think this is still in progress. I know Demis doesn't have his audio right now so he probably can't talk about it but he basically decided this was easier to do after the data plane refactor. And this effectively was put in to solve a problem we had on HEAL where if we healed you to a different NSC you might have the Ethernet address of the previous NSC in your ARP cache. And so you might not immediately get service while the ARP cache figured out that there was a problem and got invalidated. And so the Ethernet context stuff will effectively allow the NSC to communicate back its Ethernet context so that when we have to do a re-request for HEAL we can get the same Ethernet context from the new NSC. So SRV6 support, that's still in progress. I think Artem is working on that. It's currently blocking on a fix from VPP still but they now have figured out what they think the problem is and so there should be a PR shortly. I know there are certain people on this call who are very interested in the SRV6 stuff. So cool. The kernel forwarding plane, Radoslav, I know we sort of had this held over. Is there anything in progress there? Nothing much, I think. No, nothing. Okay, cool, cool. Azure Pipelines. So Alex has been working on porting our CI from Circle C to Azure Pipelines.  Well, things are going not that fast but I'm in progress and today I think I got success with Helm charts. So we are continuing and integration tests running okay and after the whole CI thing will stabilize where we can continue to build in a parallel Azure Pipeline CI beside the Circle CI and then to switch to a new CI, something like that. That would be great. I mean, the Azure Pipelines, one of the advantages they have is that Microsoft has very kindly donated enough capacity for us to run our CI on them for free, which is quite kind of them. So hopefully we can get switched over and it looks like quite a nice system. Cool. Ilya, do you want to say some things about security number four or the GWT stuff? Yes, PR actually is ready and it's even past the whole CI. It's green, so please take a look. Oh, fantastic. That's very good. Cool. And then Ivana, do you want to say some things about the metrics observability stuff? I think I don't have something more. Okay. That's fine. Cool. So I think we're to the end of the agenda. Is there anything other folks would like to discuss? Oh, if there's nothing else, then we can yield back 15 minutes of time. Cool. All right. Well, since nothing else has come up, thank you all for attending and we will see you all at the same time next week. Take care. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye. Bye.