Thanks for all your help. Oh, yeah. Well, thanks to you and and I mean honestly, you know it would have been nice to add to put more resources to it and have more cycles on it, but Just a timing issue. I wasn't I honestly was not planning to go to the Kim's conference this time around but it That was more of a priority. Unfortunately, so but Anyway, I think I was team just in time Yeah, yeah But As I mentioned to you, I had a good conversation with our CMO and I think going forward She's very very interested in this and I think you know, there may be some value in this longer term So I think this is a great start. All right. Well, we're just now at the top of the hour I see some folks just now getting on the line. So good morning. Good afternoon or good evening to you depending on where you are um, let's Let's get let's get started. I My suspicion is yeah, we're just watching. I'm just now seeing folks dialing in but we'll we'll get started Since it is the top of the hour. So Hello all and you should see good morning. Great. Good. Good morning. How are you? Good good, how are you ravish? Um Morning on my voice. I'm still recording. Okay. All right. All right. Well save save your voice, but good good to have you on the line So everyone should see in front of them. I'm sharing our agenda for for the morning I am I'm up at our my home office and Out here. I live out in the sticks North of the Seattle area here and we had some snow again And my bonded DSL is no longer bonded. So I'm only about half speed here So if we run into problems, I'm going to blame that The weather has seems to have taken a toll and I got to do some troubleshooting It looks like later today, but anyway, if I happen to drop off the line, that's the that's the reasoning So anyway, so you should see the agenda in front of you and the first thing that we always like to do is Direct your attention to our antitrust policy Please review that here and that's always available for anyone that wants to sort of peruse it But the upshot is Be a good person and so that's what this is all about And I'll ask if someone would like to volunteer to take notes for today Nobody. Oh man, and I think Alan you took notes for us last week. So thank you for that I'm happy to help thank you Wendy Just if you can if you might just sort of walk through take notes at a sort of a high level And then I'll just help me sort of help facilitate and then please email me Your notes after the meeting that's that's really the extent of that and then I incorporate that into our agenda That becomes our notes and point of reference going forward for people that couldn't make the meeting. So thank you, Wendy And on that note We do it looks like I think we have some newer folks on the call So if you're if you're relatively new or brand new to the call, please Sort of raise your hand and and and introduce yourself. We'd love to we'd love to hear from you A couple of times I'm really somebody who's sort of at her place. I'm not working in healthcare at the moment I'm actually an automotive but when I did a comparison with somebody else on healthcare and automotive We had about 92% overlap on the same I'll call it low level design issues that we have to deal with and blockchain So I found a lot of value in focusing on Healthcare special issues. Yeah. Good. Good morning, Jimmy I think I recall you you from an earlier call and then did you ever connect with Steven by any chance? Only via email Steve and Elliot and I've yeah an email and that's really where the focus is and I think He may be slightly ahead I'm not sure where his development is but we're both actually actually actively working on development now and it is Somewhat similar in a sense on what we're working with that. We're both trying to use current versions of fabric as well Okay, excellent. Excellent. Yeah, I see Steven on the call and so yeah, I do remember the conversation and I'm great to have you on as a resource Honestly Where many of us are it really doesn't matter the domain so much. We're still also pretty much learning Blockchain technologies and in fact our survey results for this year are Out and so I'll be touching on that a little bit as well Later in the call. So but thanks. Thanks to have you on the on the call this morning again And Jonathan Can you introduce yourself, please? Yes, I'm Jonathan Holt. So I'm a clinical geneticist by training by my background. I see is in bio Informatics, so I'm involved in a couple of other groups I've been actually been involved in this group before about two years ago when I was first formed A lot of my focus is in identity. So I do cryptographic identity for verification of credentialing It's one specific use case. I'm the chair of the IEEE identity and healthcare working group and An advisor to half a dozen companies. Oh Outstanding and do you happen to know vipin from from the idea you I do great great great to have you and Where are you located physically? So I have offices in Nashville and Chicago, but most of my team is a distributed. Oh Outstanding. I'm from Chicago originally. So great to have you from the Midwest And great to have you on the call. Are you planning to sort of stick around it? It'd be great to maybe get you involved in some of our subgroups Um, yeah, I think it's just a you know, it's I've been lurking on this call and the identity call and I think okay There's some specific applications and a crossover for interoperability that we're focused on right now and certainly the cursor light be very coming from the hyper ledger and intersection with the Verification of claims and in healthcare is certainly reached maturity Right, right. Oh good. Good. So so keep your ears sort of posted as we get down to our interoperability subgroup because I'm sure Steven Will will be thrilled to have you join join in on that when Steven gives an update Anyone else on the call that's new or you just want to introduce yourself Okay, sorry just to let you know that Logan who could not make it this morning and he says hi Okay. Hey, thank you for all Suspiciously Logan had a paper do I'm on to him, but well, I'll grill him formally as we get down in the kitchen But thanks Bilal. Thank you very much. And he's basically Chicago by the way. Yes. Actually, it's interesting. Yeah I know I know where he lives. My family is from very very within just a few miles of where he lives And so I'm very familiar with this His area Okay. All right. Well Thanks for that Bilal. All right. Well anyone care to make a community announcement Share a little bit about the work that you're doing specifically With the hyperlittra framework that you want to just share openly with with the community here and And always feel free to use our lists listserv as a way to maybe communicate some ideas or thoughts or Share some some new company announcements. That's what it's there for the whole purpose of this community is really for For sharing your knowledge With others in the space just as an FY for those of you that are fairly new We have over a thousand members in the in the health care profession That are part of this special interest group and they range, you know, literally all over the world So we have a lot of folks here in the US Canada India England or UK and and Germany periodically and so it's a it's a pretty pretty wide-ranging group of folks In fact, we just had an email circulate. I want to say last night from South America from I think in our So lots of interesting folks Okay, this is ravish. I just wanted to share. I know I've I promised you that I'll send out the email to the sick group, but I've not had a chance. I just Fallen six since it's been two weeks now. So I wanted to share with the group that the work that might have been doing the We've rolled out We have a local local platform and there is a plugin that we created for hyperlegit So you can visually create applications and prototypes and really start Building an application even though you may not know how to court or how to, you know Directly work with hyperlegit But if you are able to just follow our blog you can literally start creating business applications on blockchain visually You don't have to know coding. So just wanted to put this out there I will send out a email with all the information, but I've not had a chance to do that yet Thanks. Thanks for that revision and I just saw your your chat that you're gonna have to drop off the call in about 10 minutes Or so do you want to mention the name of your company the group that you're working with? Yeah, the the company name is Joget J O G E T and I will send out some information and and the articles that you've published So that'll help, you know the any of the blockchain enthusiasts Even if they don't know You know how to code if you have a business problem the real real real issue in in blockchain is Not just the blockchain the business aspect of how to present the problem and how to model the problem And and I think just building out an application really helps understand the business problems also easily So anyone who is not even familiar with with you know coding can still create drag and drop and Visually kind of things to to create a blockchain application Excellent outstanding. Yeah, thanks for that revision. Yeah, that'd be great If you want to shoot out an email to describe a little bit more about what you what you've been doing with the plugin And and while we have your ravish, let's you want to give us an update on the pair subgroup We'll just sort of segue into that and then come back around to the pair subgroup Yeah, I can quickly do that. So in the pair subgroup we We have been talking about gathering some information around What we should be doing this year. So just collecting the interest from various You know perspectives and also There is a detailed survey that went out that we're both sent across to capture Your next level of details. Yeah, they got it area of interest is is this in this area What exactly you want to do? So I am about to just put together the meeting minutes from this week and send out And those links will go out in that Excellent and So remind us of the status of the the paper that that you had been working on has that come to Are you certainly done with that? We have not You know gotten back to that yet Rich, but you know one of the one of the items from survey Tells us that we should still go ahead and finish that paper. So I know we'll be getting back on track that paper as well Okay, excellent and and you want to describe very briefly that the content of that white paper that you guys have been working on sure Sure, so I think there is a big challenge from blockchain perspective to come up with a decision as to What problem should we apply blockchain to so since we are working on a pair subgroup? We are putting together a decision framework for you know that pairs can be can be Can leverage to come up with the decision on you know, is this problem good fit for a blockchain technology or not? And what are the considerations when you do that? Excellent And and is it really is it really scoped to the pair space or not necessarily the the idea is Rich, we are initially trying to keep it general and there will be an addendum for pairs idea is going to be you know to make it All the all these blockchain decision frameworks are specific to industry and we don't want to do that. We just want to Lay down that these are the key decision points and here is the pair perspective on on these decision points. So, you know, it kind of Gives us dual benefit from papers that point Okay, excellent. All right. Thanks so much for that ravish So I'll circle back up to the patient subgroup. I don't see Ben on the call, but I but Ben and I have been working so For those of you that are familiar. So the patient subgroup is probably one of our oldest subgroups In the most recent project we've been working on is something called the donor milk project that's been going on for Not quite a year. I'd say maybe three quarters of a year or so more or less and We lost our customer a few months ago. And so we're in the process now of identifying a new customer Or what I would call from an engineering perspective perspective a subject matter expert or SME And so I know ben has been working on identifying context To identifying new SME for that donor milk project And then for those of you on the listserv you may have seen an email to circulate again last night from Oh gosh, and I forget the name of the company Gentleman from a company down in South America who has an interest In helping out in that space as well. So I know Ben had to cancel their Their bi-weekly meeting which is every other week opposite this week Fridays, I think at nine pacific instead of seven And so I my suspicion is they'll be back online Next week so again opposite this week So anyone who's interested The the real focus of the patient subgroup is to is to use the patient as sort of the the central focus For hyper ledger solutions The way that they've been doing it in the past it tends to be more top down which is looking at Sort of the application layer and developing applications In concert with customers in the real world And again their donor milk project is a good example of that So so that's the patient subgroup and then I'll say I'll sort of hand this over to Steven For an update on the work that he's been doing with spinning up the new This is our brand new healthcare interoperability subgroup. Stephen. You want to talk a little bit about that? Well, it's kind of in the same place that it was two weeks ago. We had another had the other meeting I'm still in the stages now of putting together a Charter which is really an elaborated mission statement that will help us Identify and define the The the goals and how to get there So it's quite different than some of the other subgroups It's sort of a bottom-up approach. We're going to make a lot of assumptions Probably about things like identity so that we can drill down and and see if we can't execute and Place clinical artifacts on a blockchain and to do that in an interoperable way And by that I mean something that can be That's meaningful to at least two or three different health systems on the same channel as well as the patient and begin to iterate around that and develop sort of a service-oriented architecture that can be plugged into Maybe other clinical blockchains that might need to put clinical artifacts on the blockchain So hopefully I'll be able to finish that up this weekend. I'm a little I'm a little behind because of my day job We're under we're under a lot of pressure right now to Get transition Some some architecture from One cloud structure to another cloud structure and on the technical lead on that. So it's we have Transition date of April 20th. So one way or the other I'll be finished by that in the meantime though I would like to get at least one meeting sometime Maybe later this month I have people's names like Jim who we've talked a couple of times and yes, this is very What kinds of things that he's he's dealing with in the automobile Industry overlap quite a bit with what we're doing here. So again, I think that driving through actual Building code and a blockchain and the policies and the assets and the transactions and all of those good things I think will teach us a lot about what kinds of things we need such as identity in order to In order to make everything work. So we're going to be using use cases First woman's going to be An immunization flu shot In a walk-in clinic and how that surfaced in the primary care physicians Office and to the patient itself. So Even even something very simple like that becomes very complex when you start taking into account All of the kinds of things that you need to persist And how to do it in an interoperable way so Like I said, hopefully I'll be able to Give rich a A first draft. Well, we already have a first draft. Actually, this has been this is a this is a subgroup that's been transitioned from the EMR Well, actually not transitioned but began because the emr subgroup Yeah, right. Yeah, there's there's a there's a there's a loose tie there. Yeah loose tie in sense that We're we're we're taking a much finer slice of things The conversation began with that group matured with that group. So we do have some solid ideas It's just a matter of getting the documentation together submitting that And and then getting started and I hope that you know, we'll get a lot of different people People that can code people that are clinicians Informaticists that can help us identify ways to represent The knowledge in an interoperable way probably using something like fire But also standard terminologies like snow med Moink and rx norm So anyway, this is a part of the conversation that will be developing around the group And certainly be some of the first conversations as we decide on okay Where do we want to stick the pole in the ground and drive forward with? Yeah, I mean this this is really Exciting Steven because this is really This has been a long discussion At sort of a high level to understand how do we do a Bottom-up solution which tends to be more service-based rather than customer facing necessarily Because it's really an abstraction and the hope is to be able to sort of reuse this in in slightly different contexts But but making this more service-oriented And that that to me is very powerful And and to the point that you made earlier. I I do believe we have Quite a number of interested folks and so that are in fact One of our earlier sort of designers sonia I think just recently contacted us So we definitely have the resources online and it's just now a question of yeah, just for you to find the time Maybe to to to kick off that that sort of first meeting to to bring people together So yeah, this is this is very exciting and and it sounds like jonathan May also have value to add to that as well. So jonathan feel free to contact stephen or vice versa because I imagine This will this will be a very very interesting subgroup going forward Stephen any other comments and it's actually the same use case Yeah, oh, yeah, right, right. Oh, well good good to hear that jonathan. Yeah So that's the same use case that we're driving in the IEEE for interoperability and working with collaborative partners one in the UK And it really centered around identity and the cryptographic claims of the credentialing of the Vaccination record and this is really very much of the idea of the patient at being at the center of this because you get your care Anywhere and it's very much decentralized by nature. And so I think the output of the hydrogly subgroup for identity is going to be a working Code, uh, sorry working framework for not only just the fire, but also, uh, the The the semantic interoperability. So how do we represent vaccination records? How do we represent the credentialing of providers and and the unique identity of the individual at the center of that? So I imagine there's some certain cross pollination and my goal and not the IEEE working group is to Not just produce a document because that seems like whenever you have a Uh, you talk about standards you talk about standards bodies and the standards body Actually, what wants to produce a document? I really would hope to have a standalone document that actually can have some merits that can cross pollinate to other working groups including here in Hyperledger that we actually get attestations and support from For the merits not it coming out of one specific work group Right just a quick just a quick question. Are you using a permissioned blockchain like fabric? No blockchains. So it's actually blockchains are we're agnostic to specific blockchains We uh, the the goal really would be to anchor the truth leveraging blockchain technologies or the just a bit ledger technologies But ultimately it's about the cryptographic primitives of the attestations Outstanding yeah, so so what it sounds like to me is an abstraction on top of uh, on top of any blockchain technology as needed correct Excellent. Well very good Jonathan in your area on um, I'll call it uh proofs if you will on patient data and Verification and that kind of stuff. There's an excellent paper on interoperability You know proofs for blockchain stuff that might have some relevance From MIT. I'll get you a link for that and post it in the chat here Excellent. Thank you, Jim Okay, well good conversation Let's move on So we have in addition to our subgroups. We also have ad hoc teams and really the difference between a subgroup and ad hoc Ad hoc teams really tend to be focused on a very specific item Or elements that tend to be more time based So we are as most of you may know we we originally Lived on docu wiki, which is where our wiki space is and we've recently Earlier this year moved over to confluence, which is what you're looking at right now and We're still in process trying to transition everything from sort of From our docu docu wiki space over here And so things still tend to be a little bit a little bit cluttered We've got a lot of broken links and so forth. That's just part of the transition process Ravish has been working with his team on that activity And as well The other sort of key element here is we want to be able to synchronize with the other special interest groups Within the hyperledger community here as well. And so he's doing some work with the other SIGs to make sure that Work were sort of consistent in our presentation of information so that So that any member of any SIG can sort of move back and forth between the SIGs with With relative ease without having to sort of relearn the system And and so that's going to be a longer-term project But just sort of an FYI and I know Ravish was on the call earlier That continues pretty well Okay, and this is so this is the academic research team that that Bilal had had made reference to So I've been working with both Adrian and more recently Logan On this academic research project I'll just sort of move us over to that. So this is the paper that we put together several months ago The purpose of which really is to sort of find a way to To speak to some of the deficiencies that we have within the blockchain community in healthcare as it relates to academic peer reviewed resources As most people probably know in healthcare It tends to be very very much wedded to academia And so the process for vetting anything including new technologies tends to be a very sort of Kind of linear sort of state process where peer reviewed articles Are very very important And so so what this team is is working on is sort of a trying to message a way for for this special interest group through this research team to develop a sort of a playing Sort of a way forward a strategy to engage some some companies that That tend to be agnostic a platform agnostic Particularly rti of which I think adrian is a part of that organization And and we're really looking for resources to help out in this this respect So the takeaway then the deliverable for this research team would be A white paper that gets published to say hey look we need to find a way to sort of formalize the activity developing sort of Framework agnostic blockchain technology solutions in the healthcare space that are peer reviewed So that's kind of the upshot. So it's it's a again. This tends to be probably something of a longer term process But it's it's really interesting And of course if you have an interest in this particular space feel free to contribute as well Contact either myself or logon or adrian Adrian's leading that although. I know he sort of fades in and out because I know what his workload looks like He's down in Southern california. I think rti And that's that's the work effort there Hey rich, this is yeah, yes I totally want to contribute to that group. So outstanding. Oh, very cool. Please. Let me know how I can help Oh, very cool. So I will put you in touch with logon and adrian We were joking earlier logon when adrian adrian logon And I met last month logon was going to put together sort of a one page summary for what what he thought A strategy for going forward would be and it hasn't materialized yet And so we were joking that logon wasn't going to be on the call today because he knows he knows So Thank you. Well, yeah Excellent So, um, anyway, so thank you wendy. I'll make your introductions. Uh, if you can Contact me, uh Probably through rocket chat that might be easiest wendy and just send me your email if I don't have I may have it But send it to me anyway. Yeah, I think we had even corresponded about. Yeah. Yeah. I think so too. So So we'll make sure that you get connected. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and then that way Not only will I be able to kick logon but and below but now we can have wendy do that. So that'll be awesome Oh, that's great. And I have an enormous personal library of academic research on blockchain So, um, and I am familiar with the slow speed of publishing and getting work out into the academic space So I am more than happy to contribute to your efforts. Oh, thank you. So so and on a personal note I wrote a a paper an article a couple of oh boy, and now it's been a couple months and My editor has been sort of shopping this thing around and it's just been very hard to do So maybe we can talk a little bit offline about where We may have missed. I think she was working with hbr and I don't know what happened after that So we'll have to sort of figure out what to do with it But thank you. Thank you for that wendy. Appreciate it. Oh, that sounds good. And um, since I have a I don't know if people need to have Degrees or academic backgrounds, but I could we could certainly use my academic background Degree to put ourselves out there. So oh outstanding. Yeah, you know, and actually as a reminder Oh, and actually it's the next sort of the next thing down Yeah, so for people that are interested in getting published And and really this I think I described this last time Um, let me click on this. So so we'll sort of do a segue and keep wendy sort of will keep you in the loop on this So, uh, so this was really uh, just a personal thing The upshot it is we have over a thousand folks here that Have expertise in the healthcare space And it only occurred to me after I had written my paper That it's like gee I should I should have opened this up to the whole of membership and asked Who who would want want to be able to uh to contribute on this paper? So in hindsight, uh, that's what this page is about really if anyone is interested in writing a paper or collaborating on a paper We're basically crowdsourcing this for any anyone in hc sig membership who has an interest In participating in paper writing and that's really what this table is about Anyone can edit this Feel free to do so and and the upshot of it is you want to be able to just sort of put in just a working titles Just to get gained someone's interest Talk about maybe a brief thesis, uh, you know the point of the paper Uh, if whether you're an owner or if you see someone else that's an owner of the paper add yourself as a collaborator Uh, and then that way like I said, we can crowdsource this and and put multiple folks together Uh, collaboratively uh, collaboratively on a paper sort of all under the sort of the the auspices of of hyper ledger Or and certainly you don't have to do it through hyper ledger, but this is kind of the mechanism we're using here And in that way, uh, you're really able to take advantage of the over the thousand folks that are internationally located Who uh, who i'm certain have much greater expertise than I do individually On any particular topic and so that's what this is all about. So, you know, wendy to your point Yeah, that's that's fantastic that that you're right there.  So Uh, so yeah, so I I'm absolutely excited. I'd love to see this thing move forward To extent that we can make it happen Yeah, and I'm so glad that you are pushing this because Uh, it's been really slow to get peer reviewed articles Most of the articles coming out about blockchain are coming out of published conference proceedings Very few are coming out of um peer reviewed generally well accepted academic publications And the concern that I have is that most of the publications that are coming out aren't particularly useful They're just regurgitating use cases Yeah, um, there is a tremendous need in to get good information out there to the academic community that will be value-added and useful to advancing Not just educating but really advancing blockchain and and so yes I'm right. So so one of the issues that we run into and I'm sure most people on the call understand this as well Is that uh in in the health care space? Uh to to have a conversation with uh, the you know an it department in a fairly large health care system Uh, you really have to make a fairly good case To see to to for folks to understand the value of blockchain technologies And to be honest, you know a blockchain is not a panacea. I think we've come to realize this at this point As sort of time moves on we we've certainly gotten a lot more mature in our understanding of where the use cases are and are not For blockchain. In fact, I just I think I'd read I think it was yesterday up on medium There's a really good article about you know, uh comparison of of blockchain technologies versus traditional databases so, um, so what happens is You need to find a way to demonstrate value for What the technology can it cannot do and be very very objective about it? Uh, and and to your point when the you know, a lot of the stuff that comes out tends to be biased one way or the other So if a framework xyz framework comes out, they'll publish results that suggest that their their framework tends to be better faster stronger longer whatever it may be compared to other frameworks, but uh, it's really not valued because um, because there's there's bias introduced and Again, health care tends to be very academically wedded and in academia. You have very very rigorous Uh processes in place for managing Objectivity, uh, and so then of course that's the value of a peer reviewed system So, uh, well, uh, that's at least in theory anyway But yeah, so so that's the problem that we're faced with and so we're trying to we're trying to uh, sort of accelerate a solution in that In that space so that we have a resource available. Uh, and again within the context of the hyperledger community We can say hey look, uh, here's where For example fabric tends to do very well, but maybe rolls off at scale uh soft tooth for example tends tends to scale better, uh at a higher end for a transaction per second And and here's where that sort of sweet spot happens to be and do it in a way That's very objective to the extent possible. Uh, and that's why you know part of the conversation with uh the the current team that we have for the academic research folks Is where we're we're engaging organizations that are willing to participate sort of from an objective Point of view where they where they can do so So yeah, so so this is a big issue Yeah, rich just to comment on that a couple of things one Um, I'm actually the company I work with DMX has created something called DMX university Which is Irrelevant the entire 90 of the planet because we're only focusing this thing on Puerto Rico as a way to help I'll quote Move the economy forward by moving people into tech roles in that specific area So our charter is limited to Puerto Rico and Puerto Rican residents only but um, we created a university That is launching April 1 That's really going to be targeted on certifying hyperledger fabric developers period And we've got a whole curriculum underneath that Yeah, so the whole curriculum and and what we did is we stole The parts from other places so we didn't say let's build the whole thing from scratch The two basic things we did is we pulled in a bunch of what I call You know background blockchain stuff on you from you to me and that kind of thing said we'll give those away free the whole program's free nobody gets charged anything who's in the program but um What we're doing is we built the fabric piece on top of the current version of fabric And I've just been going through with some other people creating exams on that So we're building I'll quote certification on the latest version of fabric So there's tons of fabric courses out there and even blockchain courses But none of them are I'll call it current on the current version of fabric. So at least we're Getting to that point. Um, and as part of that effort to your point going back to the white paper stuff There's a ton of stuff I have on I'll quote current fabric features and terminology that we've just dug through As concepts that could easily kick into that the other thought going back to um Rolling out blockchain successfully in any environment not just healthcare But the two things that stick out like a sore thumb is we have a methodology that seems to work pretty well at the mx And what it is is we don't start out with the idea that blockchain is part of a solution We start out with the idea in a conversation that says rich the methodologies You tell me what the best solution is to the problem you're looking at and then we'll see if The methodology says, okay, let's ask if blockchain adds value Yeah But so we're not assuming blockchain belongs in we don't the other thing that's very different and I haven't published anything on it But will is we're targeting the idea when we compare the traditional system and the methodology to a blockchain system We're not doing your existing system or new system to blockchain We're doing it specifically to enterprise blockchain and fabric which is radically different In features and it changes the equation quite a bit and there's no literature There's nothing being done in academia for the most part There are specific projects around testing pieces of fabric in academia for sure One of which was the one that has the fast fabric model now That's you know when they probably implement that will boost fabric performance on the tps side by 500 You know probably next year Right, right. That was out of a universal waterloo. I think yeah Yes, it was in arla and so that's a sort of a no-brainer that will show up I'm not going to make claims on when you know that rewrite of the ordering service will happen But the fact that you can get to you know call it a 500 tps 500 tps gain on the right side is an enormous change in where fabric applies But the bigger thing is that fabric is an enterprise blockchain has radically different characteristics For use cases than traditional blockchain and 99% of literature is around generic blockchain or ethereum Or ethereum forks and nothing to do with fabric enterprise Features that are significantly different in tailoring to use cases So if you're actually looking at fabric and you're saying here's a healthcare thing I'd argued that there's really not a methodology out there yet That any that I've read anywhere that comes close to getting that right for what it's worth as an approach Yeah, that's a really good observation jim. I would agree with you on that again the formalities You know the rigor just isn't there yet And that's partly because this is a fairly nascent technology space and everyone's sort of still scrambling to understand it and to sort of quantify it qualify it You know, it'd be it'd be great jim if perhaps maybe you can send Information out to the listserv to membership a little bit about what I think it was dmx is doing in the space Because I I would imagine there are going to be folks in membership that would be interested and Sort of going down that path of education And and you know, it sounds like eventual certification Well, so what's happening is the program the way we're running the program is quote free no charge number one But two it's limited to Puerto Rican residents only and that's okay All right, but that's a long-term mission of that. So what I'm arguing back to the president of dmx is hey look Why don't we run the thing for a couple of months? And if the program in a sense produces or meets the goals it's supposed to My argument is since there isn't any good comprehensive fabric developer Training program out there, but the content's good from the development from the fabric documentation team Why don't we in a sense just open source back to the hyper ledger fabric project? Our in a sense training It's really call it organized workflow on top of what their content is Including exams and all that stuff and we should just open source that back So that's a proposal I have to the president if that works then you write at some point six months out We'll just donate the stuff to then make it available You know to everybody free. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I understand now. Okay. Yeah, definitely keep keep us posted on that because again I imagine there's good good value there. So so thanks for that Okay, again, great conversation. Thanks Jim and wendy as well For for contributing to that that this is again, this is a kind of an exciting area where there's awful lot of potential growth happening Let's see. So I wanted to talk a little bit about We recently closed out on a kidney x redesign competition Allen, did you want to talk a little bit about that since really at the CVS did did the heavy lifting for this? Well, you're you're being modest You know rich, you know has a lot of passion around You know kidney, you know as a transplantee and You know, he's active in the communities and keeps current on the technology I love blockchain and any opportunity to Learn about how we could use the technology for good is good with me I've explored, you know serium blockchain all sorts of stuff Trying to figure out some patterns that Can be scaled for enterprise use So I don't know if you're gonna pull it up for yeah, I just essentially the the problem that we were trying to do is Thanks. Yep. So the problem that we were trying to do in this challenge is make a better experience for the patients and You know, unfortunately, there's a lot of paper There's a lot of manual processes or state aggregation The delays or the little red walls there I have cause You know quality of care issues treatment Whether it's physical or mental There's all sorts of delays. So the thought process here is a Blockchain could allow the patient to own their records You know understand when their data is getting shared how much of their data they are willing to share And then make sure that their support groups whether it's You know family members nurses you name it Are in the loop, right? They're getting the right information A lot of the times people are not in the best cognitive state. They can't remember things. They're not feeling good So why should we have to make them go through You know a heavy technical debt cycle To get the best care, right? Let's make it easier for them to get the best care Um, and that I think a summary rich is anything I missed on that No, that's that's really good. I mean the the upshot is uh, kidney care Particularly because it's managed through uh, cms Is one of those sort of rare, uh, sort of population health issues or chronic disease states However, you want to look at it where it is managed through the government in a in a very formal way Uh dialysis dialysis particularly, uh, it impacts Just about 10 of the the population. I think it's one in seven. So it's about 13 percent of the population It's one of these diseases that tends to be very quiet. You don't know about it until Almost too late. So I'll just I'll just be public and say make sure you you track your blood pressure And make sure that you keep your protein in urine and blood to Normal levels and if you don't get that checked regularly, please do so that's my sort of psa But the the upshot on that is yeah It you know, we're still working in the dark ages when it comes to the technologies that that that sort of circulate behind dialysis Either in center, which is where you go to a facility that that is built Purpose built for dialysis and a dialysis patient will have to go Minimum of three times a week or the home modality where you actually get to dialyze at home Between three to five times a week, which is something that I did when I was on dialysis And in in both instances particularly home dialysis It is non-optimal. The paperwork is is pretty significant and the reason for that is really policy drives many of the decision-making actions here Because the organizations are remunerated through cms It has to be well documented Which is to say it has to demonstrate that the dialysis service was was given And validated appropriately so that cms can pay the provider back So so it's laden with an awful lot of paperwork that tends to fall to the patient and caregivers and so part of the conversation that ellen and I have have been having particularly with his team is is really to find a way to To to sort of simplify that process using blockchain. So this is sort of a classic disintermediation kind of issue And then going forward the idea would be to sort of roll in Distributed identity management to make it easier to access Patient patient data as it relates to to their dialysis, but certainly beyond that going forward So this is you know, so so i'm i'm very very excited that ellen was able to make a contribution to this To this competition. This is really i think the tip of the iceberg Going forward Again and ellen has said this i'm very passionate about this as a personal thing for me And it just so happens that i live in seattle, which i've said this before but seattle is where dialysis was invented back in 1960 So it's sort of the center of kidney care And so there's an awful lot of resources available to us here I was just on a call yesterday with our cmo with norther was kidney centers Which happens to be the third largest not-for-profit dialysis provider in the us And and so we have such great resources available here and i just don't want to i don't want to squander them And so so we're going to try ellen and i and anyone else who's interested We're going to try to sort of continue the conversation in the kidney care space Looking at ways to incorporate blockchain technologies into making it easier From either a patient-centric perspective to make it easier to take sort of the burden off the patient for for some of the work that they have to do Or to look at the sort of the workflow for remuneration to make it easier for providers To work better with cms for for payment. So yeah, really really great conversation. Thank you again ellen For the participation that that you were able to give that you and your team At cvs health. It was very very meaningful. So thanks Yeah, pleasure looking forward to another one. Yeah, me too. I'll keep my eyes open Okay, um, so uh, so we've only got just just about 12 minutes left We're finally getting into some new business. And so a couple of comments Quickly here We do have uh, we're on the hook uh for a quarterly report and so there was a sort of a downtime as we transitioned at the end of last year Sort of we did a bit of a restructuring within the hyperledger organization So if you those of you that have been around long enough for a while, we were a working group and then we transitioned to a sig So part of that meant that uh, we don't necessarily do reports To the technical steering committee anymore, but we do do reports to hyperledger leadership. That's a different community team All told we will be doing a quarterly quarterly report, which is due this time next month I was able to sort of petition to push it out at least a month um, and so anyone that happens to be a Either a subgroup or a team lead, uh, I'll be working with you directly I'm just really looking for a kind of a one paragraph summary on the work that you've done with Within your either team or subgroup as a lead Just a kind of status on the work that you've sort of done to date Where you see value where you see difficulty or challenges Over the past Technically it's a past quarter, which is since beginning a year But since we didn't do a report the last quarter of last year I'm going to suggest that you know, you look your look back is a six month look back Um, so I'll I'll be looping back around to anyone in in these lead positions Because that's that's going to be sort of on your plate And so I'll be working with you to get that squared away But that's coming up at mid month next month. So it's just in time for for taxes for those of us in the us here Okay, so this is a bit that I really wanted to get to So I'm hoping maybe the last 10 minutes or so we can sort of focus on this a little bit because I find this to be very interesting Uh, so we did our annual survey, uh, that happened at the end of last year and early this year of results are back Uh, this is just a summary and so feel free to go to the the survey itself because it's it's a lot more in depth Uh, and it's this is the full survey and so you can parse this as appropriate But I'm just going to hit the sort of summary on this So in in general we have three sort of top tier industries health care, of course being the first I think that's probably uh, no surprise. That's where we tend to be very health care focused And then the other two are technology consulting and again probably no big takeaway from that as well I think this is probably about what we were expecting Within that sort of spectrum, uh, software development and informaticists are probably the sort of the top area of where interest is in Uh, and then the development and smart contracts and then as an entrepreneur are sort of what what The survey suggests Are where the uh, where most of the work is being done. I'm not entirely convinced of that that seems Seems a little bit biased I'm I'm not convinced that we're all software developers. I don't think that's true, but that's that's what the data is suggesting to us Um, so the reason why we get together is for primarily education and then uh, business and then social networking in that order Uh, I would agree with that and just just for sort of as a side. I also, uh, I also run The uh, seattle Hyperledger meetup, which is here in the pacific northwest. Uh, it's the largest framework Meetup a black chain framework meetup not necessarily health care specific Uh here in the pacific northwest and so some of these results are very much Shadowing some of the real the results that we've seen in our our more local surveys Um, so to that point so education uh in in that meetup group as well as here in the sig Uh are are both top tier meaning Many of us are still trying to learn more about what blockchain technologies are all about And hyperledger particularly as well. And so uh, no surprise there that that education is top So from that perspective, we'll continue to find ways to make education a component here In fact, uh, we're going to try to get a little bit more in the way of speakers to come I guess speak here within our general meetings I just had a conversation at beginning of this week with the gentleman who leads the health care group at microsoft Microsoft for me is not too far from here. And so it's it's very appropriate. So he's going to be coming to speak At an upcoming general meeting as a result. And again for the sake of education So we we sort of have sort of this nice distribution of Long-term involvement in blockchain technologies three to five years about a third of the population One to three years about a third of the population and then less than one year about a third of the population So it's a very even distribution again. No surprise Um, I'm a little surprised that we've had we have so many people that have been involved for such a long period of time That that is a little bit interesting Um, and then so we would sort of walk down the rest of the the the uh, summary here Really nothing surprising most people are interested in fabric and sawtooth. Those are the top Framework tools and indy sort of the kind of a distant third And then composer explorer and cello are the top three tools that are probably most interesting To most of us here That's a part and parcel of the fact that fabric still tends to be you know, the the bigger draw as far as blockchain framework choices go And of course, you know, most people know that composer is is technically Gone sideways, but it still tends to be very very tightly wedded with fabric development still Uh, clinical data exchange public health data exchange and pii are the top ranked technology segments within membership For for us to to look at going forward So I would argue clinical data exchange and even public health data exchange Are probably what I would sort of lump together as interoperability I could be wrong in that assessment. I was surprised that pii became sort of sort of a third element there highly ranked I'll have to sort of think a little bit about how we might be able to integrate pii into more of our conversations Or maybe even some of our subgroups Going forward, maybe even a new subgroup that focuses around pii It seems very very narrow Narrowly scoped and again, I'm a little little surprised that that was so highly ranked, but we'll try to we'll try to respond to that And then as far as far as the technology segments Where we want to sort of work within the the blockchain community Smart contracts number one self sovereign identity and then decentralized applications are the sort of the top three ranked Absolutely the case that smart contracts make sense true also for self sovereign identity or ssi Those are probably the big players that I I imagine that we'll be looking at going forward particularly ssi I think and this is my own sort of take on things. I think Identity management in healthcare is going to be sort of a primary driver going forward And if if we look at our frameworks Uh Right now indy is sort of a distant third between behind fabric and sawtooth and on my I will speculate going forward that indy becomes maybe if not top A challenge for fabric within the healthcare space As the healthcare community sort of matures their understanding of blockchain technologies To include not only dlt, which is what fabric is all about But to include indy indy, which is more ssi or self sovereign identity, which is really Allowing Endpoints to manage their data and and when I say endpoints, that's really patient probably number one Provider and pair sort of the other the other two components of that of that, you know, triumvirate But but really that's for me going forward ssi. I think it's going to be very very interesting and quick to develop And then just as far as mechanics go email and telecons tend to be the the most preferred means for communication So we'll continue to do what we're doing here And then semi-weekly telecons were were by far sort of the top Request, so we're going to keep that as we've been doing going forward as well So any thoughts or comments on this and again, I really if you haven't had a chance I'd really it'd be great if you can parse the full the full resource available to you in the In the survey because there's a lot more data to be had there But I'd love to hear your feedback on that And and I mean this is really helping helping me helping us to sort of set the stage for the work that we do in this coming year Any thoughts or comments? Okay, uh, so again if if you were participant, thanks so much for participating. This is a really important survey for us And again, like I said, the value of that is it it really helps to set set sort of the cadence and direction for our velocity going forward for this year and We'll continue to sort of use the value that we have going forward to help set set our set our expectations for the full membership group Okay, with just a couple minutes left and again, this is something that got sort of pushed to the bottom of the pile last time so we may have to do that again, but A handful of us did participate in the hymns conference this past month and two things that really came out of that that discussion Or participation Was the fact that so many people came up to us and asked where are your use cases? um and honestly, uh, we we don't To date, uh, the sig really doesn't think in terms of use cases and perhaps perhaps. I think we want to probably maybe formalize that So, uh, what i'm going to recommend and again, we're we're just coming up to the top of the hour We'll we'll have to push this the next next next time we meet Uh, what i'm going to recommend that we have a good conversation about the value of you of documenting use cases For public access within the the hyper ledger community And then the other the other sort of takeaway that that we we picked up was that we had an awful lot of people with interest in blockchain governance Which is really how do you manage a blockchain solution once you decided to implement it? Which if you can imagine as part of the discussion up front When you're looking to see the what the value of a blockchain solution is Uh, it includes DevOps it includes sort of long-term management of a technology solution And so people were asking well once I implement this thing. How does this get managed long term? Which is very insightful and suggests that people are starting to consider blockchain technologies a little bit more rigorously Which i'm thrilled about but we need to have a good conversation and a good discussion around how to make that happen So those are the two things that we'll put, uh for next month And we are up to the top of the hour. So we'll have to close things out Um, so thanks everyone for for for participating And uh expect, uh, I'll send out notes uh and courtesy of of wendy. So thanks for wendy for that Uh, that'll go out sometime today and then of course we'll be meeting again In two weeks, which is march 22nd same time same location same telecom Uh, any final comments before we we close out? Alrighty, we'll have a fantastic weekend. Thanks everyone You too. Thanks


Hello everyone, my name is Simone, I'm from Trento and I'm an exchange student here at Tibor University. I'm attending a master in Sociology and it's a double degree with my university in Italy, that's social researches. And yeah, the master is quite interesting, especially there is a lot of methodologies that's always nice if you want to make a research in the future and especially in issues, in social issues. And yeah, there are courses that are more interesting than other, of course it's personal and I really like a lot methodological courses because it helped me in order to gain my future goals that is to be able to make researches and the topics varied from welfare states, researches or crime, researches or social capital, that's our topics quite important nowadays. My favorite course since now has been welfare state studies and welfare states itself has to do with solidarity and this is a weakness since people are willing to pay for and to contribute to societies, paying taxes for instance, to contribute to societies and to help groups that are in social needs. And so the word solidarity has been, it is really important in these kind of studies and this is a weakness as well that means that people don't choose, just are not willing to contribute for everyone but there are some kind of criteria that make some groups more in needs respect to other according to societies. And this criteria is what also influence policies because after politicians according to what people think they create also policies. This specific course, this specific master in sociology, you have like the first semester, you have courses whereas in the second semester you're just focusing on your master thesis, the courses, some courses require also groups assignments whereas other that are the most, the majority are more individual assignments. The groups like you create, we create more group assignments within courses. I mean that we meet with some friends and maybe we organize, we try to come out with some ideas, some new ideas. But what is really important and interesting about some courses are also the labs because during the labs, like before going to the labs, you have to prepare like several articles and to think about it critically. And after once we meet all together in a lab, we talk about it, we discuss it and we try to come out with some critics that according to us are a lack of the paper itself. And so this developed you, this critical point of view, this critical way to look at societies and especially in topics like in all social topics in general, we really, this course makes you understand that society is really complex and so helps you to look at all kind of social topics in more a critically point of view because one paper can come out with a really great idea but often it has something that is not perfect because it doesn't look the same issues in a different perspective. And so these labs really helps you to think about society more critically.


Shiva, Shiva, Satsang, Shambha, Shambha, Shambha.  I want you to understand that in Indian languages, even for a person, commonly we say the name of the place where they've come from and then their name. For example, my own father's name, generally written as B. V. Vasudev. B stands for Bengaluru, which is a place. And people are named like this, Padmaja, Somaja, Shailaja, always referring to the place where they have come from. So I don't see what is the insult, I really didn't see. Even I… now I'm unable to see. And international media, I was listening yesterday and they were all using the term. I didn't see anything wrong. But anyway, if it hurts you, we'll call it just the virus, okay? No issues about it. I don't know what political and other kinds of issues are hidden behind it. But it is normal for us to refer to something from where it comes from. So I think it's quite normal everywhere, particularly in Indian languages, to do that. Anyway, well, the world has crossed unfortunately over thirty-thousand fatalities in the world. And the numbers are building up, many countries moving towards a thousand fatalities a day. In spite of lockdowns, emergency hospitals being set up everywhere, in spite of that it is happening. United States is also moving towards a very aggressively spreading over hundred-thousand people infected. Deaths are also beginning to happen. India is still doing okay, but I think the effectiveness of it is because of district-wise blockhead that the administration is doing. Fortunately, largely people also cooperating. But there's one problem that from major cities, the workers who had come from villages, rural India to work in cities, they have become desperate to go back to their homes. Because it's largely male population which comes like this. They usually have a small piece of land at home or in the village. When they're out for six to eight months working in a city, women tend to the land and they go and come. But now when they know there is no work and there is a risk to life and they don't know what's happening to their families, so an exodus of labor from cities to villages is happening. Government is doing everything possible to set up hostels for them, food arrangements. But they don't want anything, they just want to go back home which is unfortunately... it's understandable how they feel about it. But unfortunately they could take the virus in the city, the virus in the city to rural India. Where right now rural India doesn't have much or almost nil presence of virus in rural India, but this migrant labor could take it. In southern India except Kerala is largely in control. It's not rising, the blockade or the lockdown has been effective. But the challenges is the coming one week to ten days we must see what happens in India. It all depends what we do, every one of us. Because there is a problem in human mind as days pass by, nothing happened. They will become complacent. Nothing happened means what?  Nothing happened means everybody is well. It is not a time to become complacent. It is not a time to relax the basic mode of behavior that we have set for everybody. Please let's hold this and from all scientific predictions, calculations, it could be a reasonably long haul. But those of you who are at least believing that you are on a spiritual path, this is a good time because in today's world where there is such an onslaught of sounds and colors and visuals upon our senses, in the sense if you were here hundred years ago, well you saw greenery around you, brown earth, blue sky. If you had to see anything more dramatic, you had to wait for the sunset or get up early and wait for the sunrise. Rest of the day this is all it was. Now it's not like that if you turn on your television, colors are going on all the time or if you just open your phone, whole cosmos is happening there or just about anything that you want to see is there. So the amount of visual input and the audio input is so heavy today that turning inward looks like a very remote thing for most people. This is a good time to check yourself out and also use this opportunity. In yoga, there is a dimension among the… in the astanga yoga. Well, astanga yoga as some people think is not a brand, astanga means eight-limbed yoga, eight-limbed yoga. One of the limbs is pratyahara. Pratyahara means taking your sensory engagement from the outside world and put it inside. In today's world, people cannot even comprehend what that is. Well, many of you who've been through periods of sadhana have experienced this. Well, even before I thinks happened with me, when I went away into forest, just to enjoy the forest and just to walk. For weeks on end, when I just walked by myself in the jungles, I just realized that I just realized that just not seeing human faces for a few weeks does something to you, which is incredible. There were wild animals, but there were no human faces for weeks on end. Well, I noticed something very, very different in my system, a kind of energy and exuberance, which was kind of, you know, making me walk a few inches above the ground kind of feeling. Though mostly these weeks I was largely starved. No, I'm just laughing at the pains of hunger now because they're very painful. But still, I was energized in such a way that I would be walking almost few inches above the ground, that kind of feeling. And I realized it is when I look at trees, animals, the engagement was one kind, you know, it's just looking at it, appreciating it or simply looking at it for what it is. But when you look at human faces, knowingly, unknowingly, there is a certain amount of transaction happening, like dislike, approval, disapproval. So many things are happening, you don't even have to participate in it. If you just look at someone, it just happens. So it is from then that I started kind of closing my eyes more and more, because if I just close my eyes for hours on end in a day, consciously closing your eyes, not sleeping, you will see there is a new dimension of energy available to you. This is what Pratyahara means, that you took away the sensory engagement with the world and turned it inward. This is a good time if you're willing wherever you are to experiment with this, that if not the whole day, let's say six hours a day or twelve hours a day or whatever is possible for you, you can even start with one hour or two hours, just keeping your eyes closed, not looking at anything. Initially your mind may go all over the place, it's okay, don't try to control it, let it go wherever it wants. I want you to understand it doesn't go anywhere, it's just replaying old stuff.  It is... this is the illusion you have to break, that you believe your mind is going somewhere, which means you're misunderstanding psychological process for an existential reality.  This is a good time.  But something... something happened, somebody made some noise, somebody did something. Okay, not like that, especially when you think something important is happening, you must close your eyes. Yes, because engagement with the world has to become conscious, that's all.  When your engagement is compulsive and reactionary, then you will see smallest things are throwing people off. Most human beings, just earning a living, raising a family, dying one day. For this, how much turmoil people are going through is unbelievable. It's not even fair. Just to do simple things that every other creature is doing, right mouse, look at the sparrows. Evening family affairs, they're settling. With a bird brain, but they're managing it in their own way.  This is because their engagement with the world is compulsive, not conscious. This is a good time for you to experiment with this, that you bring some pratyahara into your life. Wherever you are, whoever you are, it doesn't matter. You don't need any training. Just sit with eyes closed. It's all right, mind is running away. Let it run. Don't try to stop it because there are no breaks on it. All the three petals are throttle. Whichever way you touch it, it'll only run faster. So don't do anything, it will run. It will run because it has a certain karmic momentum. If you just leave it for some time without tending to it, it will slow down and it will stop. Do not worry about stopping the mind, not stopping the mind. All I am saying is, do not engage with the outside world for whatever number of hours that you can. Start with an hour, push it to six to twelve hours a day. You will see, you will have the necessary energy to hit the peaks. Right now the biggest problem, why human beings are not able to become blissful and exuberant within themselves is lack of energy. If they're joyful for three minutes, then they will sink like that. Actually, there are sayings like this in the society. Socially people believe that if you become very exuberantly joyful today, tomorrow you will be miserable. This is generally said in the society. Don't be so happy because tomorrow you will become miserable. Because their batteries are like that, that today if they're very exuberant, tomorrow it'll become depressed. So pratyahara is a key element to create that kind of an energy system, which can take any experience of life in its stride and doesn't put you down. Good time to turn to pratyahara. The important thing is, if you engage with your thought process, that is not internal. That is also engagement with the world. No, no, I did not look at anybody's face, I was just thinking. This is also engagement with the world because your thought doesn't belong to you. The content of the thought is all from outside. You're running a private world in your head, but there is no private world. There existentially there is only one world, you either live in it or you don't.  Sometimes of course it gives you some pleasure, but living in an illusory made up world is not going to last for long. Especially if you… you know, people are always saying, I got disillusioned. This is my blessing, you must get disillusioned as quickly as possible. Because disillusion means all your illusions got destroyed. Should this not happen at the very beginning of life? It should happen at the earliest time that all your illusions fell apart. My blessing is, may you live, may you live in the majestic beauty of this creation, not in your own illusion. However sweet it looks right now. Please question. Sadhguru, the first question is from Jordan, I know. Namaskaram Sadhguru. Where is he from? Can we ask or no? He's not mentioned, Sadhguru. Okay. Social media question. Okay, we cannot ask him because we cannot say where they came from. If living here as a yogi is so ecstatic and blissful, why would one want to escape the cycles of rebirth? You must take away the word escape. Well, I'm asking all of you, I'm sure every one of you have been to school. Well, for some of you, school might not have been a pleasant experience, but for many, school was a good experience, especially those of you who didn't care to learn much or come first and things like that. You just enjoyed the company of your friends and play and fun and whatever. School was a good experience. So when you finished your schooling, did you escape from the school or did you pass out of the school? We don't know. Maybe Giordano escaped from his school, that means he didn't pass. Generally, most people pass and they go to the next stage of life. When you're in school, however good the school is, would you want to go to the college? Definitely. This is the nature of the human being. However good this is, you want to go to the next phase of life. Something is good, so I will do the same thing. I will do the same thing forever. That's a foolish way of looking at life. That is not coming because life is so fantastic for you, that is coming out of the fear of stepping into the unknown, totally unknown, absolutely unknown. This happened at one point, bad times came and Shankar and Pillai became a construction worker. Construction worker carrying bricks up many floors. Then his co-worker, another person who was also laborer there, noticed Shankaran Pillai is carrying more bricks than what is asked by the foreman, more. Everybody is carrying eight bricks, Shankaran Pillai is carrying twelve bricks. So eight bricks itself is quite heavy and you're going up many floors. When they go there, they just throw it down and come. The pleasure is coming down empty-handed. So at lunchtime, this other laborer asked Shankaran Pillai, why are you carrying twelve bricks? What is needed is only eight. If you carry eight, you will get your full labor. Why are you carrying twelve?  I am carrying the same set of bricks up and down, brilliant. So there are many people like this, they're carrying on with the same stuff up and down, up and down, punarapi jananam, punarapi maranam, going on and on. This is happening simply because life is compassionate. Creation is compassionate, it sets screens for your memory. If these screens are broken, you will be so miserable right now.  So one who has broken these screens and not become miserable because of that, this is why opening up one's memory beyond the present realm of experience first needs a very strong psychological foundation, not spiritual, psychological foundation. Because if you don't have a very stable psychological foundation, if the screens of memory break, people will have a shattered mind. When people are struggling with one lifetime of experience, not even lived fully, by the time they're thirty, they're struggling with their emotions, their thoughts, their memories and they're miserable. Suppose you open up three lifetimes of memory, you believe these people can handle it, they'll go totally off. So because of this, life's compassion, creation's compassion is holding memory blocks separately. So you don't realize you're doing the same thing again and again. It doesn't matter how beautiful, exuberant, wonderful it is, if you repeat the same thing over and over again, I'll do one thing, whatever is your favorite music, I will play it, not here, I will play it in your mind, non-stop. Next twenty-one days with this fantastic music you will go crazy because it's playing non-stop. So anybody who realizes the same things are going cyclical again and again will naturally want to break the cycle. It is not, you're trying to escape. You have found a stairway to something beyond.