Live from Boston, Massachusetts, extracting the signal from the noise, it's theCUBE, covering Red Hat Summit, 2015. Brought to you by Red Hat. Now your hosts, Dave Vellante and Stu Miniman. Hi everybody, we're back at Red Hat Summit. Doug Baylog is here, he's a Vice General Manager, excuse me, of the Power Systems Group at IBM. Gave a keynote this morning. Doug, great to see you again, CUBE alum, awesome. Thanks for coming on. It's great to be on theCUBE again. Feels like just yesterday I was here as we were out at Edge out in Las Vegas. So not too long ago. You know, and I invoked Rosemilia's line on theCUBE the other day, infrastructure does matter. It does. Even if we want it to be invisible, it matters a lot. You guys have reorganized your group, really done something that I have been talking about since, you know, a long time, since Gershner's, maybe even before, is to get the right software products and marry them with the hardware, get the middleware in there, get the Tivoli pieces that matter in storage, bring it all together. It's a powerful story that you guys have. Set it up for us. Yeah, so, you know, we've been as a company transforming, why are we transforming? Same reason a lot of other companies are transforming. I mean, there's just tremendous forces that play in the marketplace at a faster and faster pace. We were just talking about a second ago. Between the shift to data, we're all swimming in data, trying to get any analytics inside out of the data, the move to the cloud. Of course, our point of view is most of our clients are going to be in some hybrid structure in the cloud. And of course, then the whole aspect of, kind of the way in which firms engage with their employees or engage with their clients, right? New workflows, new business models, new technology. All of this says, you know, we as a company, IBM have to keep transforming, and that's what we've been doing. To your point, David, the big shift we made in the next step of our transformation earlier this year was to say, you know what, let's bring together all of our capabilities around a key set of kind of growth areas, whether it be analytics, the cloud, Watson, security, commerce, now healthcare. Let's put those technologies, those services, those consultants together in the units. And then also though, let's take the infrastructure, the middleware, the Tivoli storage content, and bring all that together with servers for the first time that we've ever done it. So now we have a systems unit that I think really represents the platform of what we can do to bring the best of IBM software, systems, storage together, but still recognizing the role open plays as we go through all of that transformation. So a lot of change under foot, they're all sort of driven by market forces. Well, and you know, people like to take shots at IBM because it's big, IBM's getting out of the hardware business when you sold your X86 line, but when you sort of think about the organization, it's a much, much more powerful approach from a go-to-market, R&D services standpoint. New mainframe cycle, so Z is kicking in. Z13, huge first quarter, 130% growth in the first quarter. People don't understand how big this is.  If you're on the mainframe, you're going to buy that stuff sight unseen. It just throws off, you know, great business for both sides. You got a new spring in your step with open power. We're going to talk about that a lot. New storage strategy, so that's great. And the middleware piece, your Marie Week running that, you know, connecting in. So let's get to open power. You guys kind of doing a judo move on the big player in the industry using open source. I've never heard it called judo move. I'm going to use that line David.  Now IBM's got some, you know, you were very humble this morning. You said in our own little way, we helped, you know, establish Linux. If it weren't for, you know, Steve Mills vision, the ability to actually at the time invest a billion dollars in Linux, you know, the pace of Linux adoption and development. It would have been a different pace. So I think that's absolutely fair to say. Change is the game. Now, maybe it still would have happened, but IBM was an accelerant to that. Now you're trying to sort of use that same playbook in open power. Maybe talk about that a little bit. Well, actually use what we've learned in Linux on the mainframe over the last 15 years. I was there when we started. Tom and I were actually, Rose Millie and I were actually there when we made that decision to put Linux on the mainframe. Gosh, in hindsight, I wish we had done the same thing on power back then, but we didn't and that's history. But here we are today and obviously a lot has changed. And so it's not just about Linux on power. It's this point of time we see in the server business where we're going to really take all the concepts of the open source software and we're going to bring that to open source hardware.  Now's the time to disrupt it. And why? Because in the server space, certainly the distributed server space, it has been so much historically driven by a generation of chip after generation of chip after generation of chip. Now with the technology headwinds we all face, the, you know, the demise of Moore's law, however you want to think about it, you needed something different. Otherwise, listen, I haven't found an application that says, you know what, I'm okay running slower. You know, I haven't met that person yet. Maybe someday I will. So a disruptive play says, let's just open it up. Let's steal from, steal in sort of a cognitive way, right? From the open source software model and bring that to hardware. And that's really at the heart of the open power foundation. So it's Linux, it's little Indian on power. Basically bringing, welcoming in all the software. All the software, all the accelerators. I think that's the other big point, right? I mean accelerators. You know, if you think about what is going to, as a community, help innovation to go, it's going to be new models around chip innovation, new models around accelerators, high speed IO, IO adapters, clever system designs, flash is part of the memory space, new memory models, software optimizes. It's going to take a community. You couldn't do this. You cannot do this by yourself. No one company owns the innovation, should own the innovation agenda. Yes. And that's the breakaway model. So Doug, you know, one of the exciting pieces of the open powers, Google's involvement, can you give us a little insight and what brought Google involved? What did they see? Why did they want to participate?  Yeah, there's a bit of a common model without talking too specifically about Google because obviously, you know, I've got to be careful with that, right? But let's just talk about the principles of what brought Google in. Google, smart company, a lot of innovators, they saw themselves now sort of being single threaded to one chip provider, not their model. They want innovation, they want choice, they want to be able to move with speed, and they didn't feel they had that. So they were always looking for choice and therefore power technology, not necessarily an IBM power server, that's not their model, but power technology and in an open way was going to give them that ability to have choice in their infrastructure, to innovate at the speed they want to innovate and create that ongoing sort of competitive nature. That's what sort of brought them into open power. Now, the other thing I'd say is sort of the common thread you see through all of the cloud companies are standardization of their era of infrastructure is what matters to run a well-efficient cloud infrastructure. The interesting thing is all the clouds are standardized on something slightly different. That's why they go by from sort of the various white box providers, the system that exactly matches their need at the right cost point they want with the right logical interfaces. As IBM brings power to software, which is happening here in the next couple of weeks, that's not an IBM server. They're actually acquiring it through the supply chain that they would normally acquire it through. It's a power A processor, but it's an open power server. So, Google's buying from their supply chain, I suspect. IBM software is buying through their supply chain. RaxBase will buy an open compute based on power through their supply chain. It's about sort of creating the supply chain that serves the hyperscale data center space. Interesting. So is it almost like an ODM equivalent for power? I'm just trying to reconcile that. Yeah, it's a bit like an ODM, except the good news is because we've released the specs, we've released the firmware, we've released it all out there, these companies are surprising as at times. We had the Open Power Foundation Summit here in San Jose about a month or so ago. 15 companies came with systems. We didn't know that was going to happen. Same thing in China here. Just a couple of weeks ago, we weren't even at the event. It's 600 companies in China got together to talk about open power. And for the first time, they announced their own, what they called, red power. Local developed, local manufactured, locally built, locally innovated power based on Linux or Linux on power for the market in China. So we were starting to see this community-based, they just grab it and run it with it now. And that's very different than an ODM model. It says, I'm going to one-on-one work with you to bring a platform in the marketplace. Very different. I'm curious, does open power fit into the open compute discussion at all or something we might- Oh, absolutely. In fact, as I mentioned, so Rackspace who has chosen open compute as their form factor, as they're a member of the Open Power Foundation, they're now working with their supply chain to get a power-rate design system into the open compute model to bring in their infrastructure. So what I announced here, in fact, today, as you saw, we've got a number of advisors now to the Open Power Foundation. I shouldn't say we, the Open Power Foundation has a number of advisors. One of them is the Open Compute platform. The other one is the Linux Foundation and then the China Power Technology Alliance. They're going to advise us on what we should continue to do in open power to innovate and move forward fast. So a couple of other things I want to touch on from your keynote. You talked about, we like the Jeffrey Moore scenario, too, of systems of record, systems of engagement. You call the systems of insight, I think you call the systems of intelligence, but same concept. You also talked about, and just now, the attenuation of Moore's law. So it seems like innovation is going to come from combining technologies, combining these different systems, bringing transaction and analytic systems together and engaging with customers. So I wonder if you could talk about sort of IBM's vision of those three types of computing, bringing those together, powering those. What's the infrastructure look like underneath that? Yeah, I think what you'll find is they'll always be blending between them, but I think in many ways they can be very distinct. So the systems of record today, we're talking about the mainframe of the Z13 cycle. Fabulous technology, that is boy, what an example of systems of record continues to be at the largest financial firms, telcos, governments, insurance around the world, right? Same with our high-end power business, running AIX and IVMI. This is the final version of truth in a company, as I described. It's a really bad day when that stuff goes down, right? Because you're out of business across the board. So those records, they move at a very methodical pace. They got to be careful of the changes, change management's critical. Those aren't going to change. The systems of engagement are typically these days, sort of small-scale-out systems, and they're a rapid line of business decisions. Hey, let's experiment with a new application, a new workflow to go look at how do we, as we've done with Apple in our relationship there, the example is how do you allow a flight attendant, flights delayed, that happens sometimes I hear, right? Flights delayed, I'm going to rebook you while we're in flight, knowing that you're not going to make your connection. That's a whole workflow. That's not just a pretty app on the screen, that's a workflow back to the back end. So that engagement, and there's a experiment to get, try things, they work. I pay up for that. I told them don't do it, because I'm going to make that connection by the way. I said don't you dare change me. I've had too many examples of that. But those engagement applications, they're quicker to develop, they're experimental, you try stuff, you change it, often driven out of the CMO, the Chief Marketing Officer, move it a whole different pace, but often they're connected. And then the systems of insight, as we call it, kind of connects together that social world, the sentiment that exists out there in that mobile digital economy we find, with that data that resides in premises. I mean, grocery stores are a great example. They know everything about what we buy. What they don't know today is what do we say? Yeah. Right, so connecting together, what do we say in the social world with what do we buy? That gives them a whole different view of us as customers. Who wouldn't want to have that? So it's the combination of those technologies that really is driving innovation, not that faster processor speeds won't, but it used to be just that. Different design points, different architectures, data is sort of the thread through all three of those. So I want to also talk about it's not your space, but you talked about it in your keynote, Ron Perry, I know Ron, I've interviewed him in theCUBE a couple of times. We've had dinner together. Great story, isn't it? He talked about years ago the high-priced tyranny, the mainframe, how he swept his floor of all these x86 boxes, bringing in mainframe. He brought the tyranny back, I think. The most interesting part of his story, I can relate to it because I booked a flight the other day on some other airline, but it's serviced by, I won't say the airline because they're probably a customer and they'll be screaming at you. I could care less, but anyway, what his company is doing with data is essentially unpacking that whole value chain so that you can actually, as a customer, and I got five reasons why I couldn't make, when I called up, I tried to make a change. Oh, you can't make a change because it was booked on this company's paper, this airline's paper, and where this, and there, so he's unpacking that whole thing and allowing the airline industry to actually understand through data what's actually happening and what he's doing is bringing analytic and transaction data together. It's a very powerful story. It is. And if you think about the airlines he serves, a small and mid-size, what a great value prop for them as well too, right? He's not dealing with the large, multinationals that, you know, we often fly once you on their paper, right? I was, unfortunately. But I mean, he's dealing with sort of a bunch of carriers that want to connect themselves together, right? Their value versus the large ones is being in a connected economy. And so his value prop ties to their value prop of how do they come together as a community. So it's a whole different model. And that's digital disruption at its core. I mean, we all, you know, all those of us who fly some of the apps, they work great, right? You know, this is so easy. Other ones, it takes 20 minutes to log in. Yeah. You can even find out what it is. So that's going to change the way, you know, and that's just one example and, you know, airline transportation of bringing together analytics and transaction systems. So what are you seeing specifically, you know, one of the things we've talked about in the past is the tailwinds of big data on what used to be known as HPC. Right. And that sort of expertise into big data. What are you on analytics? What are you seeing there? Yeah. I mean, we as a company just made some big announcements last week in terms of kind of going all in on Spark. We do think Spark as sort of a disruptive technology is exactly right as sort of that next wave of the data, the language of data. And so, you know, the 3,500 developers we've committed to move to Spark. A lot of those developers are going to be on optimizing Spark on power. Right. So we've got the connection here beginning, so to speak, of that next generation of the language of data tied to the great value of profit power rate as the platform for analytics. So that's an interesting way back to your earlier point, David, of how we're connecting together some of these things. Big bet on Spark. You had a bet on Hadoop. You know, decent sized bet. Big, big bet on Spark. Well, I think back to the mainframe discussion. A Linux on the mainframe we talked about 15 years ago. I mean, we do have that position that when we sort of bet and go early in some small way, perhaps, right, we're able to influence the direction of the market. And certainly, again, we are betting big on Spark. And by the way, a lot of clients I've talked to are betting big on it too. They're excited about our contributions. Well, it makes the whole platform relevant. Yeah. You know, and let's face it. That platform was struggling with relevance and now all of a sudden, boom, you're throwing out names like Google, obviously Melanox and NVIDIA in their spaces and key, key players in the value chain. Now, 140 members of the Open Power Foundation. I mean, I just stopped quoting numbers because the moment I say it, it's obsolete. I remember when you announced that, you know, it was 25. It was 25. It was like, oh, there's some impressive names on there. But 140, you know, year on out is good. And they're not just Barney announcements. These are guys doing real development, correct? And I think, you know, if you think about sort of the waves of community to building.  I think with 140,000s of ISVs on Linux on Power, tens of thousand open source packages, it's fair to say more to do, but we got a pretty good size community now. Next phase is demonstrating that innovation the community can do. And the two summits I refer to, one in San Jose, one in China, are starting to demonstrate that wild, crazy innovation that happens when you get people together. And then we sort of move to the monetization phase, which is how do we, we're all publicly traded companies for the most part. How do we then start to take that open innovation and bring it to market, bring it to clients as products and offerings and turn it into monetization. And I think we're starting to see that. You're talking your keynote about Watson again, another area that you don't run, but actually Watson, there's a couple of divisions that have Watson embedded. Pigeonos group, there's a Watson group, a whole group itself. You love it because it's an interesting use case, application, analytics package, whatever you want to call it. It's a great proof point for the value of power when it comes to big data analytics and a cognitive in this specific case. It's going to differentiate your platforms. But so you talked in your keynote about, yeah, many of you may remember Jeopardy. So Watson has really come along. It's got, like I said, two divisions within IBM embedded in one. Oh, even three now with the healthcare unit, which is grounded in Watson, right? So talk about Watson, it's like a secret weapon that IBM has, it's really unique. It came directly out of IBM organic R&D. IBM still invests a lot of dough in R&D, big differentiator for a lot of the whales. So talk about Watson and its importance to your group. Yeah, so certainly, as you said, David, if you look at the Watson team, they sort of worked on the grand challenge that came during our 100th anniversary as the Jeopardy machine, right? Was really a marriage between deep query analytics and natural language. How do you get an interactive sort of at that time, sort of interface that could understand human language, English at the time, right? And all the subtleties of an English language, but then turn that into based on the data source and the deep query analytics. They needed the best engine in the marketplace to run that on that was going to be able to return the answers, to beat the competitors before they hit the buzzer. They picked power because it was the best platform, not because we made them, it was the best platform. And they ran Linux on it as an open, fast, innovate set of operating environment. So that has continued now since the Jeopardy into the various businesses we've taken Watson, big focus on healthcare and medical. I talked about cancer research with MD Anderson today, but also in financial and retail and all those areas by which Watson has a cognitive engine and the build out of the portfolio around that brings sort of this unique data consumption. I mean, everybody's drowning the data. So to get a cognitive system that can help sort through the diverse inputs of data, find patterns that nobody even thought to ask about, that's real value to the users of Watson. So you said in your keynote, if you chose the IT business, because you thought it was going to be stable, you picked the wrong business. Right. The whole Chinese problem, but may you live in interesting times, we live in very interesting times, one where a co-operation is sort of the watchword. And so this is your 11th year sponsoring the Red Hat Summit. Yes. And then we hear, now we have Red Hat saying, okay, we've got this new old thing called OpenShift. We're going after things like WebSphere and the competing with BlueMix, yet your group very tight partnership with Red Hat. So talk about the partnership with Red Hat, what it means, we'll talk about co-operation a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think at the core of this and why we've been a sponsor for 11 years is, IBM and Red Hat together share a common view that OpenThis is the way in which you drive innovation in the marketplace. And so we stay grounded on those beliefs, those haven't wavered in the 11 years. And therefore, while we're going to individually choose where we partner or where we compete, and by the way, we're very comfortable with that given the various markets that IBM plays in, we're grounded in the same vision of what is the right approach to the market. And so that keeps us together. And it's been a great relationship. Red Hat recently brought their little Indian support to Linux on Power. They're building out Rev and the rest of the Red Hat stack on top of Linux on Power. So this is exciting. I mean, we all know the size of the participation of Red Hat in the market today. It's significant. And so my clients want Red Hat, I want to offer the full Red Hat stack. Follow up on that importance of Little Indie and running Linux on mainframe, running Linux on Power essentially means what to the customer that you can essentially run any off the shelf application that runs on X86, you can now run it on Power. One of the insights, and I'll give Google credit to this back to your question earlier, the role of Google here in coaching us has been, we had big Indian Linux, which meant there were technology differences, not right, not wrong, just different that made bringing application code and developing it on power different than Intel. And so Google's coaching was, listen, just get on with it and make it the same so that code that ran on Intel's higher level language code, Java and scripted language, you could literally just pick it up and move it over and it runs without change. That's what Little Indian allows. Now, if you're running a C++ or Fortran, there's a recompile, but as an example, we recompiled all Webster, roughly 10 million lines of code. We found two code bugs as we brought it from Little Indian on Intel to Little Indian on Power. Almost nothing. Do you have to shave their head? No shaving of the head required. No, you know, only half a head maybe, I don't know, but a whole different look. But my point is it made it the same, the same, easy to do, not something different that you're fretted about. And that's been the benefit of us moving to supporting Little Indian and Linux on Power. It's made that portability almost seamless. Well, with cloud, now containers, techniques like you just talked about, infrastructure matters, but it is becoming more invisible, which is a good thing, right? Invisible but differentiated. Back to your earlier point, infrastructure still matters, right? And that's what you want. You want it to be invisible, but where it can shine such in those analytics and big data kind of problems, you want it to fully shine through. And that's what we've been able to do. Yeah, I want my mobile apps to be super fast. Sure. No, I might not know what it runs on, but somebody somewhere down the chain does. That's exactly right. All right, Doug, I'll give you the last word. Key message you want to leave the Red Hat community with? Yeah, you know, sort of as I closed the Red Hat Summit keynote here today, my message was, again, to no surprise, first off, IBM's absolute commitment to open this. And why we fundamentally believe open, this is what will drive innovation going forward as it has in the past, even though we're faced with a tremendous set of changes and forces in the marketplace around data, cloud and engagement, open, this is going to transcend all of those. And we're all in, we really are all in. Excellent, Doug, thanks very much for stopping by theCUBE again. We'll see you at the next show, I'm sure. See you a couple weeks down the road. Appreciate the update. Yeah, good to see you guys. Take care. Keep right there, everybody. We'll be back with our next guest right after. This is theCUBE, we're live from Red Hat Summit in Boston. We'll be right back.


A comet is a small solar system object made of a mixture of frozen water, ammonia and various hydrocarbons such as methane. When passing close to the sun, it heats up and begins to outgas and displays a visible atmosphere or coma, and sometimes a tail, the coma pushed back by the solar wind. You can see the jets in this close-up photo of comet Hartley-2. Comet nuclei range from a few hundred meters to tens of kilometers across. The coma and tail are much larger, and if sufficiently bright may be seen from Earth without a telescope, like this image of comet ISON. From ancient Greece to the middle of the 16th century, comets were thought to be luminous vapors in the Earth's atmosphere. Here's a tapestry that illustrates the 1066 comet. Here's the great comet of 1577, as seen over Prague. Tycho Braugh studied this very bright comet that's shown in the night sky for 74 days. He found that he could not see any parallax. From his data, he concluded that the comet must be at least six times further away from the Earth than the moon. This took it out of the Earth's atmosphere and started people thinking differently about comets and planets. Remember that the Ptolemy model had rotating spheres holding each planet in place. Scales findings would have comets crashing through these crystal spheres. As you can imagine, this tipped the scales in favor of the Copernican Sun-centric model and left open the question about just what holds the comets up. Using the great comet of 1680, Edmund Halley worked with Isaac Newton to find out if comets were subject to the same forces as Newton had proposed for the planets. The data showed that the long elliptical paths of the comets fit Newton's theory of gravity perfectly. In 1705, Halley studied the recorded paths of the comets of 1531, 1607, and 1682. He proposed that they were all reappearances of the same comet and that it would be back again in 1758. It was. This was a spectacular vindication of his bold conjecture and of Newton's gravitational theory. For his success, the comet was named after him, Halley's comet. I saw it in 1986. This orbit goes out past Pluto and it won't be back again until 2061.


Yo, what's fine people welcome back to another episode of kicking their bass TV. Thank you guys so much for the love and support today We're gonna be doing some bass fishing or we're gonna be pond fishing today And I'm excited about it if you guys are new to the channel hit that subscribe button share this video with a friend Also hit the like button. I'd really appreciate it and if you guys want to check out some of the kicking combos I got them on kicking their bass calm right hand left hand bait casters and spinning combos You need to go ahead and order them now Why do they need to order them now? You need to go ahead and order them you need to go ahead and order You need to go ahead and order them now so you get my Christmas you need You need to go ahead and order them now so you'll receive them you need to order them now so you'll receive them by Christmas No, say it with me Christmas Christmas Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, if you guys want to receive this by Christmas and you need to go ahead and order them now kickinthebest.com link would be down below guys this was the hardest thing in my life to end up saying so long story short we filmed a micro-efficient video if you guys haven't seen it go check it out but Cody was telling me this morning he was like dude I went back to edit the video and when you said Christmas you said it like Christmas I just didn't even know I said it like that and now we're just we're stupid man we're just stupid just that's the more that was harder than they should have been dude that was like five minutes on me trying to say Christmas the right way so I can't right now yeah we're gonna be doing some pond fishing got this beautiful place behind us it smells like some fresh picked onions out here right now but we about to make it happen and I got my kicking combo 17 pound fluoro got an old underspin on here that we're gonna try out today this is actually a bait that I haven't thrown out on this pond or I haven't really thrown in ponds at all this year other than some of Fletcher's places so we're gonna give it a shot today that's the only swim bait I have so once we break it off or once we lose the swim bait I'm probably gonna switch up to something else which I got a bunch of stuff in the back of my truck so let's go ahead and get this thing started guys I hope you enjoy it if you do hit the like button let's make it happen ordering out the receipt by Christmas had to go ahead and retie this last thing that we want is to break off a 10 pounder today and for some reason like actually I'm not even gonna say that not even gonna say it we're gonna catch him Cody I'm gonna leave the Snippers right there on the last thing we left on the truck almost turned bad we're not gonna talk about that we almost had an incident this morning didn't we? Spoiler alert it was the camera we left the camera on the tire it was yeah I to be honest I don't know how we didn't retire the YouTube channel this morning it was a close one Cody forgot his phone at the house and it was just a mess we went back to get my phone and see something laying in the driveway it wasn't even in his driveway so I left the camera on the front tire and we went to the gas station came back and came back and it was laying on the ground but it happened to be flawless because I don't even know we we got so lucky yeah I'm gonna end up going like that oh yeah not big not big but I'll take them for the first fish old fish head bass yes sir and barely eat it give it a little tick tick first fish to start of the day nothing much you got to start somewhere give me some Cody let's start right yep let's get it I'm liking this angle that I'm throwing and that's that's where I had that bite to I'm not throwing like straight out I'm not throwing parallel I'm kind of hitting more of that angle just being able to get this bait through that slot and keep it in that strike zone and not really too fast I think I'm gonna have a good one hit me hard dude like I just he's not gonna play around it's gonna be one hard thump and he's gonna have it I just want to know how big that one was that boiled on us to that's a pretty good fish oh how about broke my wrist that was a tree dude I'm mad about it I really wanted to throw this bait dude really don't want to man it's okay we have another secret bait that I think is gonna do the do the job I'm just mad about that that was my only under spin I just want to catch one big one on it today but it's okay we got a secret bait that we're gonna be whipping out I think it's gonna kill it and I'm gonna go we're gonna go back to the truck I'm gonna talk a little bit about it and why I think this bait son to catch a lot of good ones alright y'all it is time to rig up a bait so I brought multiple tackle boxes with me today but this one right here that has my square bills in it also have some wake baits okay and if you guys saw one of the recent videos over the last month or so we figured out something with a wake bait like a wake bait is a topwater right but we're not really in it like a topwater we are burning this thing as fast as we can and we're keeping it about eight inches below the surface and this bait right here in a pond is just insane because one is creating a reaction bite even if the fish are really slow they're still gonna eat it something about a crankbait they eat it in two and ponds there's usually a lot of slop and nasty stuff on the bottom well with this thing only diving eight inches you know if I was to get a regular square bill I wouldn't even be able to work it in here so the wake bait allows you to literally keep this bait a foot below the surface not get in the slot but still keep it in strike zone to get bit and I'm picking out this color today which is like a pearl with a blue back it's a beautiful color the reason I'm picking out this one is because it is cloudy today when it's cloudy I tend to use your whites and your bone colors they seem to eat that a little bit better they seem to commit to it a little bit better this bait right here has chrome on it I'd rather run that when it's a little bit sunny out but when this one looks so good as well I don't know these both look good but both these baits to be killer today with the clouds out so we're gonna go ahead and get started if you guys want to check out any of the striking baits I have a discount code and a link for y'all in the description box to save you guys a lot of money you can go check that out but yeah this thing has been a big fish killer in the ponds recently so this is something that we kind of picked up on from my boy Connor and I think he's on something with this this is like this is going to show today if it's gonna work or not but this thing has been catching big ins all right y'all here goes nothing I'm hoping this weight bait's gonna get her done today last time we came out here that's how we're catching big ins they weren't biting good they were super slow today they don't seem the best either so it's a weight bait might get them done and get them aggressive so I'm about a crank bait or anything like that with a rattle and moving it fast they just get angry about man look at that look at that huge one huge one just blew up on him I'm gonna keep burning it see if we'll get aggressive here we go yeah how to get him out of that tree he ain't even that big guys I thought he was big because I felt him on that branch oh it's a good one you ain't like a giant though he's a good fish though yeah pretty fish pretty fish oh yeah nice two pounder right there can't not complain with that cow ate that thing too had a good little wake on that bait huh and get it wake bait nice little fish right there second fish to start off the day solid two two and a half pounder cannot complain with that look at that pretty bass thank you buddy for biting man this is gonna be the trick guys getting these fish to react literally we tied that on instantly we're getting slammed to get her back in the water thank you baby good fish splash me in the fish nice oh my god oh my god oh my god sorry I freaked out oh my god I was like a seven pounder I was like a seven pounder came right off that dang thing that dang came right off that pole right there guys holy I literally watched him eat it that was cool you're not big little tiny dude they're hanging on that wood dude any wood that you find that's where I would get bit that piece of wood had a bite on this side had a bite on that side when I missed that really big one earlier a second ago it was on that big pole and that one was on that pole as well not a big fish but it's a nice one we're figuring out something now they're on that wood that's that's what those fish are holding to time a bait in this corner this is it right ready oh gosh that's him dude got a big good one look at the boil you don't look that big though he's not big but I'm awake like he's 10 pounds like I'm hooked all weird that's why you felt so large buddy you got a mouthful of leaves I hope that's leaves he's either got a leaf or a bird in there there we go we have just not got any big ones today yet guys but I missed that really good one I know we have an opportunity to catch one it's just we're having a really I mean we walk this whole pond right around here just to get this one bite so bites are coming slow and steady but we're still catching them and having a good time thank you buddy there we go that feels like a decent one yes a decent one she's fine they're fighting so hard dude oh my god what did you see that did you see that little water splash that was a different fish right next to him he's falling them in yeah yeah this is a nice two-pounder just swipe at this thing so good look at that one that's a good one we're gonna throw back in there yeah dude that was a big splash from a different fish thank you buddy I'm just throwing these fish keep splashing me in the face or so aggressive oh yeah yeah yeah this is it buddy that's the one we've been looking for unless these hooks weird oh yeah that's the one we've been looking for oh gosh get this big girl up here baby mm-hmm do you think that's a four or something yeah that's what we've been waiting on yeah buddy that's the fish that we want boys those are the size that we want I knew right when I hooked him that was what we're looking for I won't tell you he's a big one but I know we can do better I know we can get a six plus say we had like a six seven pounder boil on us earlier I know it's possible but I do not mind catching a beautiful four pounder to get her back in the water that's what we need she's a long fish she's not super fat but she's thick she a thick old girl oh yeah she mean to just think about that Bubba it's what we need man let's get back in there oh it's a giant yeah that's a big and Cody I haven't got a good look on him but I can tell he's at least four at least he looks like it ain't even that big is he Cody that's a three-pounder I mean it's a good one he ain't a four pounder he's a three-pounder he looked a lot bigger in that water so pretty fish though ain't it guys we haven't had a bite in a minute and I went back to the truck and I took that wake bait off ended up putting this trap on right here and instantly like I'd say five minutes ended up catching solid three-pounder right there not a bad fish at all we literally haven't even had a bite Cody since what that four-pounder or we had a one bite but I mean it's been probably an hour a little over an hour since that last fish so it feels good to catch one that's a pretty one they might want that trap might be a little better for them to eat it's a good fish though thank you buddy cool oh gosh Cody hey Cody boys this is a big in is a big in unless you just like gosh so hard to yes she's fucking good oh no don't get on that tree do that that's a nice one right there boys mm-hmm it's a three-and-a-half pounder look at that one brother that's a good one right there man yeah but the size getting better I will say the last three fish two three pounders and a four-pounder that's a three-and-a-half right there all day every day that's a good fish you felt a lot bigger than that to be honest with you but that's a big in heck yeah heck yeah yeah yes sir well guys I think this fish are gonna close off today's video I hope you guys enjoyed it if you did please hit the like button share this video with a friend get them in the fishing and also hit the subscribe button if you guys are new to the channel I enjoyed it today I mean it was a beautiful day wasn't too hot wasn't too cold it was just nice being out here but I'll catch you all in the next video


Hey, this is Brett and this 2009 Dodge Challenger SRT8 is stock number 13028Z. I am here at Summit Automotive in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, your new and used Dodge and Dodge Challenger and sports car headquarters. This 2009 Dodge Challenger has the 6.1 liter V8, excuse me, Hemi engine, puts up 425 horsepower. This car has been fully safety and inspected by our service shop for the state of Wisconsin inspection process. It has a fresh oil and filter change, all the fluids have been checked and topped off and this car is 100% ready to go. I'm going to go all the way around in this video inside, start it up, take a look in the trunk, take a look under the hood and just go all the way around and show you the quality and condition of the car. I shoot all my videos in 4K. This color is called Tor Red and if you have HD capabilities on your computer, tablet, smartphone or television, I highly recommend turning them on right now because it is your best way to check out the quality, condition, options and cleanliness of the vehicle before seeing it in person. And if you like the video and how I do things here at Summit Automotive, consider clicking the subscribe button to my YouTube channel in the lower right hand part of the screen and then click the bell notifications, you'll get updates on the videos I do each and every day of our new and used inventory here at Summit Auto. This one comes with the 20 inch Alcoa forged painted and polished aluminum wheels and it does have the Brembo brakes on there, good to your Eagle F1, 245, 45 ZR20 tires and these tires have a really good amount of tread left, I'd say probably 60, 70% on there. Front fender is in excellent condition, all the stickers look really good on this car as well, I didn't see any dents or dings on that front fender, it does come with the HID headlamps and the factory fog lights, you'll notice the front bumper and lower valance are all in excellent condition, didn't see any scuffs or scrapes on there, headlight lenses are nice and clear and the grille is in excellent shape as well. Comes with that carbon fiber looking sticker on the hood and that hood is in fantastic condition, I didn't see any dents or dings on there and the passenger side front fender is in excellent shape as well. Passengers side rim, no major scuffs or scrapes on there and as you go down this side of this 2009 Dodge Challenger SRT8, take note of how clean the body is, how reflective and mirror like that paint is. I take these HD videos so if you are far away or even if you're close by and you just cannot make the trip down but you're still interested in purchasing the car, you can see the car, hear the car and of confidence in the vehicle that you're looking at before you even get here so when you do get here there's absolutely no surprises and you can make a smart and informed buying decision from wherever you're at. And if this video helps you make that buying decision, let your salesman know that you saw the video, that it was helpful and that Brett sent you. And if you like the video, once again, subscribe to YouTube channel, it's in the upper right hand part of the screen, do the videos every single day. Back rims in excellent shape and the back tires have just as much tread as those front tires. Didn't see any scuffs or scrapes and you do get the brembo's in the back as well. The rear quarter, I didn't see any dents or dings on there and coming around to the back. The rear bumper is in very nice condition, you do get the chrome tipped dual rear exhaust. I believe it's the factory exhaust on here, that deck lid is in fantastic condition as well. Didn't see any dents or dings on there. We'll check the trunk out in just a little bit. And coming around to the driver's side, just as clean as that passenger's side. No dents or dings on the rear quarter. Once again, this back rim, excellent shape, no scuffs or scrapes. All the rims on this car, very, very nice condition. And the rear quarter and roof all look really good as well. And down this side, driver's side door, didn't see any dents, didn't see any dings. Very, very nice condition all the way around on this car. You get the heated power mirrors. Inside the SRT package gives you the black leather and suede interior. SRT stitched into the backrest. You get that red leather strip on the backrest as well, no rips or tears. Power driver's seat comes with some Challenger SRT 8 floor mats. And the back seats are in very nice condition as well, didn't see any rips or tears back there. Latch child safety system for any child car seats you may want to put back there. And it comes with some matching floor mats to the front floor mats as well. Auto headlamps, power windows, power locks, suede insert on the door there. The chrome Challenger kick plate. Take a look in the trunk here. Comes with a nice SRT mat back here. Comes with the kicker subwoofer. So this must be the option group two. Now this is kind of hard to get up with that floor mat back here. But you get the tire inflator kit, bunch of documentation that comes with this car. Original paperwork and such on the tires and just on the 09 Dodge Challenger information. It has a brand new battery, we put that in our safety inspection so the battery is brand new as well. And those seats do fold down for extra storage. You can see just how clean the trunk area is. Those shocks do a nice job holding that trunk up. And we'll hop inside and check out the miles, the radio and everything that this car has to offer on the interior. Really a nice ride. And it should be with the miles that are on it. As you can see only 5,975 miles on this car. You get a compass and outside temperature display. The white faced instrument cluster as well. You get the leather wrapped steering wheel with information center controls, cruise controls on the right, audio and other information center controls on the left. So it comes with the 430N radio which gives you AMFM and Sirius XM radio capabilities and of course the factory navigation system there. There's your AMFM and Sirius. Now this one also has a hard drive on it. So you can check out that by going to there and there and I'll tell you how many gigs you have. So you have 16.291 gigs capacity on this vehicle or on this radio to save music and songs to and stuff. So that's pretty cool. Here are your heated seat buttons, your climate controls, the six speed manual transmission. That's in really nice shape and the passenger side format and seat are in excellent condition as well. I don't think this car has ever been smoked in. The headliner is in great shape and it does come with the power sunroof. You get map lights, home link buttons for your garage door security systems and lighting systems, sunroof controls and an auto dimming mirror. We'll start it up and take a look under the hood. Starts right up. No check engine lights. You got the parking brake light on. No check engine lights or anything like that. This car does come with two sets of keys as well. I would personally like thank you for checking out the video today and hopefully from this HD video you'll have been able to verify the quality and condition of this car all the way around inside and out. See those HID headlamps are super bright and the fog lamps are working nicely. And under the hood we have the 6.1 liter V8 Hemi engine has a cold air intake from Mopai. Engine bay is very clean, runs very smooth. Once again this car has been fully safety and inspected by our server shop. As a fresh oil and filter change all the fluids have been checked and topped up. This car is 100% ready to go. See his shocks are doing a nice job holding that hood up. There is your emissions sticker. And I would highly, highly recommend this car from a quality and condition standpoint and to see more pictures of this 2009 Dodge Challenger SRT8 in Tor Red Clear Coat. You can go to that website right there or one of our other 450 new and used cars, trucks, SUVs, minivans, Wrangler, sports cars, challengers, chargers, Mustangs, Corvettes, Camaros, you name it, we've got to go to that website right there. SummitAuto.com full pictures and descriptions of every single vehicle from two locations all at SummitAuto.com and if you'd like to check out more HD videos you can go to youtube.com slash summitauto. Remember to like, subscribe, and share on this video and all the videos that you see there. Click the bell notifications you'll get updates on the videos we do each and every day here at SummitAuto. In fact in a second you'll see a link to subscribe to our YouTube channel in the upper left to link to more Challenger videos like this one in the upper right link to this vehicle on our website in the lower left and a link to one of our latest YouTube videos in the lower right. Click those check us out and we're super excited to help you with this ultra clean, ultra clean 2009 Dodge Challenger SRT8 in Torre Red Clearcoat. Thanks again for checking out the video remember to like, subscribe, and share on my YouTube channel. I really appreciate it. Thanks again.


Hi everybody. I think I will turn it over to Becky Rogers, the president of the Family Law Society, to welcome us. Thank you, Professor Sack. Hello everyone and welcome to tonight's event. My name is Becky Rogers and I am president of the Family Law Society, and also vice president of the Women's Law Society. I would like to welcome you all on behalf of Family Law Society, Women's Law Society, and Criminal Law Society, who all helped cosponsor this event tonight. At the end of tonight's event, we will leave time to answer questions. So if you have questions, please put them in the Q&A rather than the chat, just so we don't miss your question and we'll be able to answer that at the end. I would like to now introduce our guests. We have our very own Professor Sack and Professor Turkheimer. Professor Emily Sack joined the Roger Williams University Law Faculty in 2001, where she teaches in the areas of criminal law, domestic violence law, women in the law, and feminist legal theory. She is the co-author of one of the leading domestic violence case books and has published several articles in the field. Prior to joining Roger Williams Law faculty, Professor Sack served as deputy director of the Center for Court Innovation where she helped develop and implement the first domestic violence courts in New York. She has also worked intensively with several jurisdictions in asserting and improving the response to domestic violence, including Louisville, Kentucky, Alaska, Portland, Maine, and Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. Professor Sack previously practiced in areas of criminal defense and family law in New York City. She's a graduate of Swarthmore College in New York University School of Law. I would also like to introduce Professor Debra Turkheimer. Professor Debra Turkheimer is a class of 1940 research professor of law at Northwestern's Pritzker School of Law. She joined the Northwestern Law Faculty in 2014 after serving as professor at DePaul University College of Law since 2009 and the University of Maine School of Law since 2002. She teaches and writes in areas of criminal law, evidence, and feminist legal theory. Her book, Credible, Why We Doubt Accusers and Protective Users, was published in October of 2021. In 2014 Oxford University Press published her book, Flawed Convictions, Shaken Baby Syndrome, and the Intra of Injustice. She is the co-author of Casebook Feminist Jurisprudence, Cases and Materials, and the author of numerous articles of sexual violence and domestic violence. Professor Turkheimer received her undergrad degree from Harvard College and her JD from Yale. After clerking for Alaska Supreme Court Justice, J. Ribanowitz, she served for five years as an assistant district attorney in New York City and New York County District Attorney's Office, specialized in domestic violence prosecution. In 2015, Professor Turkheimer was elected to the American Law Institute, an esteemed group of judges, lawyers, and legal scholars dedicated to the development of the law. I would like to now turn it over to Professor Sack. Thank you. Thank you so much, Becky, and thank you everyone for coming. And of course, thank you Deb for being here. I'm really so excited to have you here. So I'm so excited to be here. I really appreciate the invitation and I'm honored to be in conversation with Professor Sack, who is truly a leading authority on domestic violence. So thank you. Well, thank you. So let's just get right into it. Your book focuses on something you call the credibility complex in the context of sexual abuse. And can you just explain for the audience what you mean by credibility complex? Yes, the credibility complex is a cluster of forces that shapes our assessment of credibility. And this is true unbeknownst to us. We often don't see these forces. They're hidden. They're often invisible. And the book is aimed at surfacing this cluster of forces. The credibility complex, I should say, is driven mostly by culture and by law. And so it really is a book about culture and law and the ways that culture and law lead us to often discount credibility unfairly to inflate credibility unfairly. And I can honestly say a lot more about each of those dynamics, but that's the basic idea. Yeah, and I think another important point is obviously this is gendered, but it's also intersectional in that it involves race, class and immigration status as well that can add to that discounting that you were just talking about. I think that another really insightful part of your book is what you call the three pronged explanation of credibility, because I think most of us think of credibility is just, you know, do we believe the person. So can you kind of talk about the three different prongs because I really found that really interesting. Yeah, and before I get there, I do want to say that a main point of the book is to see credibility as power, and to argue that credibility gets meted out along familiar axes of power. Wherever in our society, we see folks who are marginalized or vulnerable, we're more likely to see credibility discounting, and the opposite is true. So where we see status and authority, we're more likely to see credibility inflated or boosted. The greater the differential between, let's say, an accuser and an accused, the more likely that there's going to be a very steep disparity in how we assess credibility. So yes, gender is one really important dimension to be thinking about here, especially in the context of sexual abuse allegations, which is the subject of my book. And as you say, Emily, it is also really important to consider race and disability and sexual orientation and gender identity, immigration status, and so forth, right. All of these places where we see power in our society, meet it out unequally, we're also very likely to see credibility discounting and credibility inflation. So that's by way of background. To the question about what is credibility in the context of an allegation of abuse, we're really likely to focus on the first part of an allegation, which is this happened. And so when someone comes forward and accuses a person of sexual assault or sexual harassment, we realize that what they're saying is something happened. But there's more to credibility than just believing that something happened. We also have to believe that it was wrong. And that it matters. And those are what I think of as the three dimensions of credibility in this context. It happened. It was wrong, meaning the perpetrators to blame, not the victim. And it matters. We ought to care about this. If any one of those claims is dismissed, the entire allegation goes nowhere. And so, you know, these are different mechanisms of dismissal, but they're, they're functionally the same. They lead to nothing happening on the allegation. And we talked about it. We have talked before about it in the context of, say, Governor Cuomo, you know, first there were sort of like he would jump from these different prongs. So, you know, the first was it didn't happen. Then if there was a video or there was some, you know, credible, credible testimony about it, he would say it happened, but it was misunderstood. It wasn't blameworthy, as you said.  And then the third thing was if it happened, and even if it was a little bit blameworthy, it was trivial. And by the way, you know, I'm too powerful a person for this to derail me. And, you know, of course, this issue comes up not just with famous powerful men, but it often also comes up with them. So, I mean, one of the things that we also just talked about recently was the fact that how durable this this battle about credibility is, and we saw this in the recent confirmation hearings for Judge Jackson, when senators brought up the Brett Kavanaugh hearings and I wonder because I thought your, your comments on that were really interesting. So if you want to talk about that, that would I think be great. Absolutely. Dr. Blasey Ford, and her testimony is is is one of the stories I tell in the book. And it's one of these credibility contests that sort of captured the popular imagination. Everyone had an opinion and, you know, for, for many folks, Dr. Ford seemed, you know, extremely credible others thought the opposite. So this is just one of many examples of how polarizing and divisive the issue of credibility can be particularly when a case is in the public spotlight. You know, but what one of the things that struck me at the time was how invested, you know, so many people seem to be in discrediting Dr. Ford on any one of any, any number of grounds. So maybe she was lying, but maybe she was just confused. And maybe she wasn't lying and she wasn't confused. But what she said didn't really amount to much. And you saw kind of variations on those themes in the public discourse around the hearings.  And so, you know, it's just interesting to see the staying power of something like Dr. Ford's allegation and the ways in which these very powerful forces converged, you know, to ensure that the allegation, you know, did not amount to anything it didn't go anywhere and of course you know Justice Kavanaugh was was indeed confirmed. And I think also, not just the endurance of those things but also the anger and the emotion and the investment behind them and, you know, whether it's people who are proxies for the accused person like some of these senators, but also the accused often try to make themselves into the victims. And, you know, we saw this in some even earlier set of hearings like with Clarence Thomas, we saw it of course with Brett Kavanaugh and can you explain what you think is sort of behind that feeling that they are the victims. I think some of it comes down to sort of entitlement and a sense of being owed something whether it's a seat on the Supreme Court or a continuing governorship. You know, and you can sort of look at the public figures as you mentioned, you know, most of the stories in my book are not about famous people but, you know, for for the sake of sort of, you know, being on the same page here I'm going to refer to some of the cases that are widely known. Many of these men who have been accused do occupy positions of great power and privilege. And, you know, for many who don't yet, there's a sense of promise there's a sense that that they are on a path that will lead to these, you know, various forms of success be they wealth or, or other kinds of power in our society. And so, you know, many of these cases I think come down to this, this entitlement, not only to act as one wishes in let's say a workplace, but then to escape consequences for it and to be able to move forward as if nothing happened or as if nothing important happened. We orient ourselves to the pain of the powerful in our society and so we're often loath to impose consequences on someone, if it means disrupting that trajectory, or that entitlement. Right. Your book also discuss discusses certain myths we have that affects our decisions about who is credible. And I just want to go through a couple of them with you. One is this stranger rape myth, and if you could sort of speak to what that is and why it's not accurate. So the paradigm that I think many people are familiar with of sexual assault is that it involves a stranger, maybe in a in an alley or some kind of dark place outside. There's often a weapon involved. There's often really serious physical injury. And that individual who's victimized reports immediately to the police on their physical findings and you know that's the kind of case that is most likely to to proceed through the criminal process. But you know as as we know that is not the typical sexual assault, it may seem that way, and it certainly maintains its its hold on our thinking. But in fact, most sexual assault is is committed by people known to one another by by acquaintances and it doesn't involve weapons and it doesn't involve serious physical injury. What matters about this stranger rape paradigm is that it shapes our thinking about victims and perpetrators. And so it gives rise to what I call the perfect victim archetype and the monster abuser archetype. And I can see more about what each of those archetypes look like, but that's how that's how we sort of rely on these misconceptions and myths I think we can trace a lot of this back to this this original paradigm of stranger rape. Yeah, I was going to ask you next about that other myth about the perfect victim. So maybe you could go into that further. Yeah, the perfect victim. You know we can think about the perfect victim in terms of of her I'll use gender pronouns I do want to of course recognize that men and non binary people can of course be be victims of sexual abuse, but the vast majority of victims do go by the gender pronouns she or her and so I'm going to use that here. The perfect victims behavior before the incident during the incident and after the incident are important for us to think about. So before the incident, she wouldn't have been drinking. She wouldn't have been dressed in any kind of a way that was seen as provocative. She wouldn't have willingly engaged in any kind of behavior with the person who turned out to be her attacker so there wouldn't have been any willingness to go back to his apartment and do anything whatsoever. And you know during the assault, she would fight back really really hard, and she would resist and she would scream and and and she maybe would flee, and then afterwards she would report immediately and she would cut off all contact. So those are some of the sort of that sort of the mythology around how victims behave. And of course when someone then falls short of those behaviors. She's seen as as less than credible, we have a harder time believing that it happened, or that it wasn't her fault, or that we ought to care about it right because it's seen as less serious if it doesn't resemble this sort of behavior of a perfect victim. And I think I'll just add real quickly is that, you know, many of these sort of requirements, these burdens that we place on victims to be perfect are actually baked into the law itself. I mentioned earlier that the credibility complex is driven by culture and by law. And I think it's, you know, important to sort of see the ways in which these cultural biases, and as I say burdens, find themselves into the law itself. Yeah, and I want to get to that in just a second. But also, you know, one thing that comes to mind when you were talking about that is because particularly like, say sexual harassment is often in these kind of power relationships in a work setting. And as an example, again, but of course this happens not just with famous people but you know with Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas. I remember at the time being a person just out of law school watching the hearings that there was this big thing about well why did you ask him for a reference. Why did you, you know, take his phone calls, etc. You know when if this were really true. So either you're lying, or it was trivial, etc. And I don't know if you have other thoughts about that but it seems. Absolutely and you know as recently as you know with the Harvey Weinstein prosecution. We were seeing some of these same themes come up in the cross examination of those victims and the prosecution I think smartly decided to present expert testimony. But it was designed to counter some of these misunderstandings about how victims actually behave. And as we all know that that case did end in a conviction but it's not, it's not that we've, as a society sort of transcended. You know what we saw with the, the Thomas Hill hearings not by a long shot where we're still working through a lot of these misunderstandings about again abuse and how victims react to it. Yeah, and I think also with the perfect victim myth. Again, as you've said in your book. I think that there's also a sense that we don't want to believe that sexual abuse is as pervasive as it is and so if we can kind of put it in a box of somebody who, you know we would be like that we would never act like that we would never be the victims. Again it sort of primes us to not believe victims who may not have been quote perfect, because you know if we had to believe them we'd have to believe a lot more about sexual abuse and maybe want to believe, you know. Right psychologists talk about the just world hypothesis, which is a way of understanding this protective mechanism by which we come to understand bad things in the world as resulting from bad decisions, or bad character. It's a protective mechanism because if we can, you know sort of convince ourselves that if we aren't bad, or if we don't make these bad decisions, then bad things will not befall us. The world feels like a much safer and more just place. And I think this absolutely can help us to understand some of the blaming impulses that that we see so pervasive in our society. So let's get into the this concept that you had you just mentioned about being baked into law. So, give us some examples of how you think this this discounting works legally. So both I talk about the criminal law but I also talk about sexual harassment law and because you know tonight our examples are focusing some on workplace harassment let me let me give a few examples from that area of law. Two, one is a requirement that in order to be actionable harassment rises to a very extreme level, such that is severe or pervasive in the language of the law. It falls short of that it cannot even reach a jury so you don't even, you don't even get to the sort of what happened did this happen question in a court of law, we can sort of get stuck on that doesn't matter and the answer is, it doesn't matter, unless it's horribly egregious, and I, you know, go on for pages and pages in the book because the cases are, in my view so appalling about the kind of workplace harassment that that that never even goes forward to to reach a tire effect it's dismissed beforehand. And so that's one example of where the law is making a very clear judgment about what matters and, more importantly, what doesn't matter. The other place that I that I think is interesting to think about is the laws requirement that the victim of harassment established that it was unwelcome. And so the presumption really is that this kind of behavior in the workplace is is welcome. And in order to establish that this this behavior actually was welcome there's so many types of evidence that come into court that I would think of as being very victim blaming types of evidence so what was she wearing, what kind of banter was she engaging and what did she do outside of the workplace that might be, you know, considered behavior that a certain type of person would engage in. And so this, you know, this welcome this unwelcome this inquiry is a place where you see a lot of blame shifting within law. It does seem to have analogies in criminal law and rape law with consent or lack of consent and there have been attempts in rape law to change the burden of proof on you know who has to prove consent or lack of consent. It doesn't seem like things are moving the same way in sexual harassment law in the sense that this unwelcome this standard has been around, you know, for, I don't know, decades and there doesn't seem to be a lot of movement in that area as far as I know. I mean, the contest in criminal law around how to define consent is is ongoing and I and I think that there's still a lot of work to be done, but it is true that the criminal law once formally incorporated a resistance requirement. And in other words, it required a victim to resist to the utmost of her ability or to resist in a way that was that looked like a physical fight. And that's no longer written into our laws. But there's still a force requirement in many states so non consent alone is is is not going to to make something sexual assault in many states about half you still need to have force as well. And then to your point about consent and how we define it, you know, there's still a verbal resistance requirement in most states that that define consent. And so affirmative consent which requires some demonstration of willingness. That's the standard we see on most college campuses now and it's a standard that most of my law students are really really familiar with. And I would have stunned to learn that that is in fact not not the law when it comes to the criminal law of sexual assault. Right. Another concept that you talk about in the book relating to victims is something called an anticipated credibility discount and so can you explain that phenomenon. Another thing that you talk about about sexual assault and sexual harassment is that the vast, vast majority of it is never reported. And I think that the credibility complex is a main reason why. So what happens is that survivors anticipate or expect that if they come forward their credibility will be discounted, and they might anticipate this because it's happened to them before.  And so it is a very rational decision I think to choose not to come forward because credibility discounting can be so devastating. And what I heard over and over again in the course of researching my book is that the experience of the credibility discount is as bad as or even worse than the abuse itself. And it turns out there's lots of psychological research that bears that out and lots of reasons for that. And so I think by by seeing the credibility discount as anticipated, we can better understand why we have this under reporting and to put it a little bit differently, if we can do better with the credibility discount and if we can dismantle the credibility complex that meets it out so frequently, we're likely to see more reporting. It's not to say that it's the reporting is going to be right for everyone, or that that reporting will be anything other than difficult for many people, but at least we eliminate that unfairness and at least we eliminate that added that added harm that is often described as a second assault. Yeah, and I think you also in the book talk about as you said it's sort of the site that sort of inner psychology what happens to victims is the sort of self blame and the self doubt so they feel not only will they not be believed but they start to not believe themselves in a certain sometimes. And I don't know if you want to talk further about that. I mean so I think of this, there's the anticipated discount and then there's the internalized discounting that goes on, and it goes on along each one of those three dimensions that we talked about earlier. It happened. It was wrong, it matters and how does that get internalized well, maybe it didn't happen, right, maybe, you know, maybe I misunderstood or, you know, maybe it wasn't really as bad as is it, maybe, maybe I'm thinking it was. And so there's a lot of sort of second guessing and self doubt that, you know, I hear when I talk to survivors and certainly, you know, therapists and psychologists will talk about when they're talking about this, you know, this problem. There's also, you know, shame and self blame, and a lot of questioning what did I do to bring this about, you know, was this maybe my fault or partly my fault and so that again is kind of internalizing that blame shifting. And then when it comes to, you know, to care, you know, I, what often happens is that a survivor will feel like it's not worth coming forward because it just wasn't serious enough it wasn't harmful enough it wasn't worth sort of triggering a cascade of consequences that maybe will will ensue and that it's better just to stay quiet. And another part of your book that I found really fascinating was this whole the whole the untested rape kits. And, you know, as many of us know there's just this incredible number of rape cases that were where victims have come forward and have gone through the process and yet law enforcement has not pursued those cases and I think you do a really, you know, excellent job of explaining that but you could tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah, thank you the backlog of rape kits I think is this really tangible evidence of how cases get dismissed before they ever get fully investigated. This is drawing in part on on research that's been done on these rape kits and really extensive interviews with the officers who shelved the kits. And it turns out that they were making really early credibility determinations that led them to believe the case was going to go nowhere. And so that the case went nowhere. So it's this idea that if you short circuit and investigation before you do your job as a law enforcement officer, you're, you're, you're dooming the case to failure. And that's a lot of what we see, sadly, in the law enforcement context. There's a story for about the harm that this causes victims, both internally, externally, etc.  What do you think that victims most want to address the kind of harm that they felt. What really varies from victim to victim. And one point that I really try to meet in the book is that there is no one size fits all approach to justice when it comes to sexual abuse and sexual violence. Many of the survivors I spoke to wanted there to be some criminal justice intervention, and maybe that looked like a conviction and maybe it looked like jail time. Some didn't want that at all. Some were interested in restorative justice, particularly on campus, that's something that appeals to many survivors. And some I think wanted in their own kind of inner circles and the people to whom they reported informally wanted that kind of vindication and validation that that is often elusive and that you know, to frequently, I think survivors come forward to those they trust most, and they don't get that kind of support and they don't get that kind of vindication and validation. And so, you know, that piece is one that each one of us has real control over because we are, I think, more and more receiving disclosures in our daily lives. And so part of the message of the book is that even if you aren't a law enforcement officer or a Title IX officer, you don't work in HR and your company. There are so many things that you can do when you hear about an allegation of abuse that actually can help set that survivor on the path toward healing. And I think it would be interesting for our audience, if you talked a little bit about what really led you to write the book and really why credibility became your focus you've worked obviously a lot in the criminal law sphere. How did you come to focus on that. I mean, I was thinking about credibility from the time I started practicing law because I was a prosecutor and I did handle these special victims cases where credibility is central. So it's kind of been on my mind from the beginning of my work as a lawyer. As a, you know, as a legal academic my scholarship has focused a lot on law reform and particularly rape law reform. But enforcement issues are always lurking underneath. You can have the best laws on the book, on the books that you could imagine. And yet if you don't have good enforcement of those laws, they're really not doing what they're designed to do. And enforcement in turn, you know, leads me to questions of how we assess credibility and not only how we evaluate the question of what happened, but also how we evaluate the question of whether it matters and whether something ought to happen as a result of this allegation. And so I think my in my writing, I was sort of drawn to turn squarely to this question of credibility. And then the last thing I'll say is that the, you know, the hashtag me to exploded several years ago. And, you know, we seem to be having this new ish conversation about abuse and I, and I was fascinated by the thought that we might be making progress in that there were more stories in circulation and survivors were feeling more empowered to tell these stories. But yet it didn't seem to me that we were necessarily getting better at it, at figuring out what to do with these stories, or at imposing any kind of meaningful accountability, particularly when it came to the most powerful men accused. And so I think that all of this was in the mix for me as I sat down to write the book. You know, when I teach women in the law, which I know you do as well and one of the things that came up in a class discussion was the backlash after me to that some of the students in my class for example reported that say a male employer would say, Well, I'm not going to, you know, give you this opportunity I mean they wouldn't phrase it that way but basically because I don't want to be accused of something, etc. And I just wondered if you had thoughts about, you know, you started to talk about the progress we're not sure if there's progress you know how you feel about things like that. Yeah, I hear some of the same concerns from my my students and you know the the notion that there would be fewer mentorship opportunities because the, you know, the maybe the men and the workforce were reluctant to sort of do what needed to be done. There's something, you know, I think self serving about about that rationale that you know to the extent it's given as a rationale for for staying away from mentoring. But I think the larger point that I would make is that there are powerful investments in the status quo. And this, you know this me to movement so to speak, if it's to have staying power is it is going to topple a lot of vested interests and so it should not surprise no one that that there is, you know what you might think of as a backlash or resistance to a real effort to take on, you know widespread sexual entitlement. And so you know this is part of this is part of the fight this is part of, I think what we're looking at as we look ahead and think about the, you know, the next iteration of this movement, I think we absolutely have to reckon with the ways in which, even well intentioned people I think maintain an attachment to familiar structures. And when we're talking about systemic change that can be deeply threatening. And that was going to be my next question, which was, you know how you know what is the path forward. I mean I don't want to put this all on you but you know just thought you thoughts that you might have on how we really couldn't make meaningful change in our culture and in the law. Yeah, I think you know I'll make clear that you know when I talk about credibility, discounting and credibility inflation. I'm really talking about about patterns right why sort of behaviors across swaths of society, I don't mean to suggest that, you know, in every case. This is sort of how it goes. I certainly don't want to suggest that every allegation, you know, ought to result in a in a sanction. But I, but I do think that these patterns should be noticed should be identified should be understood, and then we're in a position to do better. As I say, you know maybe one by one, each individually in our own lives. I think that, you know, it's not, it's not radical to suggest that these systems are populated by individuals. And so if we care about just to take one, the criminal process, then we need to care about the police officers and detectives who are working up cases with prosecutors the judges who are deciding evidentiary emotions and doing sentencing jurors, we're all we're all, you know, in this culture, we're all drinking from the same water, we're breathing the same air. And yes, there are subcultures and I don't mean to suggest that culture is a monolith. But I do think that if we want to sort of take on some of these institutions and systems, we have to, you know, look at the culture at large. And that's way too massive to take on in any way other than individual by individual. And so really the book is a call for each person who reads or, you know, each person who's listening to this conversation, you know, to think through how each one of us can be more fair and more just when we come to the task of judging credibility. Well, I would love to talk to you all day all night. But I see that our time is getting short and it's time to turn it over for we want to make sure there's time for questions. So let me turn it over and thank you, Deb. Let me let me turn it over to Alyssa Lynch, who is the president of the women's losses, sorry, criminal law society and Ali Rapetti who's going to be joining her and handling the questions who's the incoming president of the criminal law society. Fabulous. Hi everyone as Professor Sack said my name is Alyssa I'm president of the criminal law society. So we will just go ahead and jump into the q amp a. Again, if you have a question. Just go ahead and type that in the q amp a, and we're we hope to get to all of the questions. Okay, so first one is can you point out how credibility and gender based cases is often gender stereotypical. What should a judge tell a jury about how to judge credibility affirmatively, and how to avoid the inappropriate biases that play into credibility. The model jury instructions do an awful job of explaining credibility. Any. Are there any published good ones. I just want to add that I believe that's from one of our federal judges. Okay, I should, I really appreciate that question I've been thinking a lot about jury instructions and the, you know, the ways in which judges tell jurors to use their common sense. And of course, that when one of the main arguments of the book is that our common sense is faulty, and that when we rely on understandings of the world that are inaccurate, we're not going to do a particularly great job. When it comes to this task and I say we, I guess I mean jurors are not going to do a particularly good job when it comes to this task of judging credibility so I am absolutely in agreement with the with the with the questioner and this notion that, you know, simply talking about common sense and relying on your experiences is not especially helpful. Unfortunately, I haven't come across good instructions that are corrective I think that the ways in which prosecutors in sexual violence cases are trying to deal with it is by way of expert testimony. And so going about the correction of these misunderstandings in that way, obviously, you know, there's there's some that can be done in closing argument but I, I think it's really difficult when it comes to instructions, because of this insistence that you know common sense is is is all that jurors can bring to this. Okay, thank you. And let's see so the next question we have is how do you feel about defense attorneys whose job it is to essentially discredit victim stories and how that plays into the system. I am less. I think I'm less bothered by the fact that defense attorneys do this because within the confines of, you know, ethical dictates and their professional responsibilities, defense attorneys have an obligation to zealously represent their clients. What I think is worth noticing and worth critiquing is that these arguments still have traction, or that they're likely to be effective they're likely to sway the triers effect. That's what I think is is really the problem here because as soon as jurors stop responding to these kinds of arguments and to these insinuations about victim behavior and the like, you can bet that defense attorneys are going to stop, you know, making those arguments in court and stop doing that kind of cross examination so the problem I think goes beyond kind of what defense attorneys are doing. And to be clear, but there are ethical considerations there are evidentiary rules that constrain what defense attorneys can properly do in court so I don't want to suggest that I'm, you know, in support of some kind of a free for all. But again within those parameters defense attorneys are doing their job. And the, you know, the issue is that to do their job they're they're able to rely on these on these myths and on these blame shifting impulses. That's what I think needs to change. All right, I just want to apologize if you see me looking to the rights because I have another screen that's where I'm getting the questions from so I'm not looking away. Next one is from your research what do you think we can do to undo the implicit bias of the rape slash victim slash credibility culture we know today. Yeah, I mean I think that what what we can do is better educate ourselves and become better aware I think that, you know, a premise of any kind of implicit bias training is that surfacing some of these biases is at least a necessary first step toward eliminating them and I you know and I take that very seriously I think that we have no hope if we can't look in a clear eyed way at how in this context, the credibility complex is shaping our judgments without us even realizing it, that this isn't a problem, mostly of bad apples but this is people who are well intentioned who I'm going to presume want to do better and want to do right and I think that a lot of this is just happening in such hidden ways that at least you know my, my effort is to try to expose some of this. So our next question is conventional wisdom holds that restorative justice is inappropriate and sexual abuse or intimate violence cases. Do you share that view or does restorative justice have potential, particularly as an alternative to incarceration. Yeah, it's such an important question and I will confess that the restorative justice part of my book was, I think the hardest for me to write. I came at it with some fairly deep seated skepticism that this was, you know, the best way to handle, particularly as you say gender violence. And yet I was hearing from enough survivors that this was something that that was appealing and I as I delved into the research and and sort of sort of read about some of the success stories. I really wanted to present restorative justice in its most favorable light and to sort of put it forward as an alternative that for many survivors really is the best option. So, so the way that I kind of accommodated this impulse was to say restorative justice can be a great thing it takes the what happened part of this credibility assessment off the table it starts from the proposition that it happened. And it the offender is coming at the process willing to accept responsibility for what he did, or what she did. And, and then the question becomes how to restore the victim and bringing the community along in that process and. And so this idea that validation and vindication are hugely important to most survivors, you can see why a restorative justice process would, you know, would be would be appealing that it would be a comfort to be able to start from an acceptance of responsibility and an apology and then to move on to what it takes to kind of repair that harm. So I tell a story in the book about a high school student who came away from restorative justice process really empowered. And I explain why I think that that happened and what worked in that case. At the same time, I include the voices of people who don't want restorative justice and who are who are skeptical that it can provide the kind of systemic response the kind of real accountability meaningful accountability that they are seeking. And I think that it's important to include these multiple perspectives. And really, it really doesn't feel to me like I'm the one to weigh in on whether this is good or it's not good. I think it should be available if done well to those who want it. And I think we should also recognize that it's, it's not for everyone, and it really has to be done well because if it's not done well it replicates existing power and balances and hierarchies in in ways that will absolutely work to the detriment of victims. So in your book you interviewed a lot of survivors and quoted from them extensively. Why was it important to you to include these narratives. I really wanted to center survivors and to center their voices to center their experiences. I, I set out to identify patterns and common themes. I wanted to do that without flattening anyone's experience or suggesting that these were all the same. And I think that my way of kind of reconciling these competing demands was to, as you know as the question suggests to include a lot of the words of survivors in the book. In your view, what are the best ways to combat the deep seated myths that affect law enforcement's treatment of survivors. Well, I think that one promising avenue is, is, is to do training around trauma informed interviewing and investigation, which is something that some departments around the country are doing and doing well. And that's a place where I think that there is a real need for education, and there's some research that suggests that law enforcement officers are very open to the teachings about trauma and that it actually can significantly change the way these people are approaching their work. So I think that's one place that I would point to where where you could actually see some, some real progress is to, you know, to sort of teach officers about trauma and its effects and how incorporating an understanding of trauma can can change the work that they're doing. Okay, it looks like this is the last one that's posted so far so if anybody else has any additional questions please feel free to go ahead and post those in the q&a. So how do you think and I guess I'm going to add a little bit. Do you think that prosecutors and defense attorneys can work together better to bring justice to victims or do you think that like it's more one side needs to work harder to bring justice to victims or you know I think prosecutors and police. There's improvement to be made on both fronts and on all fronts I mean I think when I'm looking just at the criminal process you know I think that at every stage along the way. We can do better police can do better prosecutors can do better, which is not to suggest that there aren't you know police officers and prosecutors doing you know wonderful jobs when it comes to their cases of course there are, but in the aggregate I think that you know that these systems need improvement and you know there are plenty of horror stories, you can pick up the papers and read them but certainly in my book there are plenty of horror stories of survivors who were mistreated horribly by by police and by prosecutors. And there are some whose cases got all the way to the jury and then at that stage you know that things things went south so there you know there's a lot of work to be done across these across these systems and within them. A quick question, if that's okay. Because I know this has come up a lot with people who have read your book which is what do you think about the specific situation of child sexual abuse, and believing children, and some of the issues that come with that. In terms of, you know the memories issue and all that stuff and I just wondered if you had thoughts about if you had any different way to focus on or frame children and their role as victims. My in my book, you know very deliberately looks at teenagers and adults and and doesn't look at child sexual abuse, except to the extent that many of the survivors I spoke to several are also abused when they were children, and the research suggests that child sexual abuse is a risk factor for later abuse as in adulthood.  I don't, I don't in the book, talk about sort of repress memories and I think that that's a really complicated question on and one that I would need to do more research on before I felt like I could intelligently answer the question. So one more. In your opinion what do you think can be done to bring the backlog of rape kits as current as possible. I mean so there's you know they're funding funding questions and you know some efforts to actually fund the backlog and that's something that seems to be actually fairly successful is actually getting money targeted to this so you know we can applaud those efforts. I think if I'm you know pulling back even more. I'm tracing the backlog of rape kits to this tendency on the part of law enforcement officers to do credibility discounting. In the early stages of an investigation and that's kind of the, you know that's the larger piece that I think I would like to see fall into place we can address the backlog and we should. But if we don't do something to sort of improve the law enforcement response to sexual violence, there will be a backlog in 10 years because these cases will continue to be, you know dismissed at early stages and these rape kits will continue to be closed so you know there's a shorter term solution and then there's a longer term solution. Okay well, I think that concludes the q amp a portion but I just want to thank you so much for being willing to speak with us all and for the hard work that you do and the super important work that you do.  Thank you, Alyssa I appreciate that very much. Alyssa and thank you Professor sack and Professor Tarkheimer for coming. I know the Roger Williams students really appreciate having people to come and talk about this subject. So also thank you everyone who attended family law women's law and criminal law society all appreciate it, and have a good night. Thank you everyone. Thank you. Thank you.


The governor of our new state, Baba Gana Zulum, has condemned the attack on the campaign train of the PDP's presidential candidates, Abubakar Atikwa Abubakar. Zulum spoke at the inauguration of the APC's State Campaign Council for the 2023 elections. He reminded the council of his ban on political forgery and warned APC members and supporters against engaging in such, he called on security agents to investigate the matter, do justice to both the victims and the corporates. We are now set to continue an intensified election campaign in good faith in every part of the state in order to secure guaranteed electoral purchase in the upcoming election. What has happened during last time, during the very very time, was this continuous outburst by a quaternary of political party miscreants cutting across all political parties, including the VDV. When the VDV made the final application to US in the Reynolds Square as the daily for campaign rally immediately directed the SFD to contact the police and DSS for their professional opinion on the security implications of the rally and the possibility to provide the adequate security in the course of the rally. The difference is that the DSS responded positively as a result of which I approve the request of the US in Reynolds Square for their rally. Hello, hope you enjoyed the news. Please do subscribe to our YouTube channel and don't forget to hit the notification button so you get notified about fresh news updates.