Click online and travel for less Expressway bringing you the time asked. The DL Debate with Sister Sarah's Laddercanny serving food you'll love till 9 p.m. daily in Sarah's kitchen and there's free admission entertainment every weekend. Welcome, welcome on and all to the DL Debate. Thanks so much for tuning in. This is your weekly radio show and podcast coming live, live on Highland Radio here. As ever produced by Kevin Furrier, he's Stephen Kev. Thumbs up, good to go, good man. Listen, we're going to look across the GA world here in the northwest shortly. We're going to catch up on all the weekend's action and talk a wee bit about the Donegal management. I have, of course, the legend that is Pachy Bonner coming on the show. A bit of a life story there after a few weeks of we had Nadine Daugherty, Colin McFadden, Joe Boyd, some great stories. And this in the hero to us all Pachy Bonner, Pachy Bonner, of course, Celtic and Ireland. He'll join us to discuss life and sport and, of course, the small matter of representing Donegal in the GA. I'm very interested to hear stories about that. He's played with a few legends. Speaking of legends, I'm joined by one now, the one and only regular contributor. There's Brenda Calcone. How are you, sir? Are we coming? Are you coming in there, Brendan? We'll get you through. Coming in shortly. Kevin's going to play about there and get him in. Just a couple of results from the weekend there. Our Masters to book their semi-final spot with the one over Anthem at the weekend. 14 points to five. Terriman Ladies retained their division one title, going from strength to strength, 3-12 to 1-5 against Neve Connell, getting ready for a big championship push. In the hurling, a couple of big victories for Satanta over Boncranne and St Junans over Burt at the weekend there. We're going to do a bit of a look into the hurling championship noise. It gets down to the nitty-gritty of it. Jared Gilmore, we keep mentioning, Man on the Matches, 2-12 again. Some serious shooting from Han Russell Ford. Took the Man on the Match for St Junans. A big spread of scores for St Junans, but the lively Ford in a corner forward, hitting 1-5. In another game, McCool's against Dunlowe. And, to be honest, they're Dunlowe. They're coming up on the hurling world. They stayed with McCool for about 40 minutes. The sides were pretty much leveled at that point, but that's maybe a bit of a conditioning and a bit of experience about McCool's pulling away on Dunlowe, but Bradie Dunlowe getting an active giller in the hurling, and they're becoming competitive. Have we got Brennan Kilcoin in there, Kevin? Are you coming through there, Brennan? We're still struggling for Brennan here. Now, what I was going to ask Brennan was the Durygull management. We're looking at candidates this evening now. There's going to be another step in the saga, and we're hoping for a saga that is not like the saga previous, which dragged on and on and on, and they ended up with Patti Carr being put together with Aiden O'Rourke, and we all know what happened after that. Things didn't happen. They went downhill badly, and listen, we stayed at the ship room, Brennan stayed with Aiden O'Rourke and Patti Bradley. Durygull is most funnest this season well in terms of what we would have thought in the championship. Certainly, listen, we lost badly to Theron, but I think that was probably the best performance we've seen from Theron, and maybe Durygull at that point maybe ran a little bit of steam. They just, I think, showed enough, particularly in that monahen match, you know, when you look how far monahen took Dublin, that we're back being competitive, you know, and I think for any new management coming in, you know, it's certainly, you know, with the players missing. There's an exciting time there in Durygull football. I'm just looking at Kevin here, are we looking at? Are you seeing there, Brennan? Are you hearing me? Are you there, Brennan? Brennacle Coyne, come in if you can hear me. Go joy-keeping. No, we're not getting him, mate. We'll have to give him a bell here so we can tie him on. I can see him, but I can't hear him. The joy's a live radio. You give him a call there, Brennan, but yeah. As I said, there's a meeting tonight where Durygull are going to look to select a committee. Now, as far as I know, that committee will be past players, maybe a few from the All Ireland team of 2012 and the 92 team. So, listen, you have a good bit of experience in there, maybe a couple of other people in the background just to give it a bit of balance. Obviously last time, this time we spoke, we went after Malaga O'Rourke, of course. I think he was probably number one target after his, you know, brilliance with every county he's been with, you know, especially for Manon, and then, of course, what he did with Monahan, and then with the Glen Club, you know, he just seems to have made a touch. I know Connley's kill again. The likes of him was spoken in terms of people outside the county, and then, obviously, he had the likes of Rory Cavna and the Carl Lacey situation in the background, which, you know, there was talks. There was never actually an official interview, and Rory, of course, has ruled himself out recently. And I'm not too sure what the story is with Carl. You know, certainly from his time in the background there with the likes of Declan Bonner, you know, highly, highly regarded, as he was a brilliant coach. And I'm wondering, just with that situation that happened last year with the academy and that, is there a way to pull Carl back in, or has he fallen out of love, maybe a small bit, with the likes of a coaching role with Donegal, because there's no doubting he was looking for it, or would he have been happy to do it last year? Kevin's given me the thumbs up there. And we have, at last, we've got Mr. Calcoine on, Brendan, are you with us? I am indeed, to be, how are you? So, John, we patched you in another way. This Kevin man has many tricks up his sleeve there, but we got you back on, Rory. Brendan, isn't good to talk to you, how are you keeping? All good, Brendan. Just down in a scroll here for a few days, just chilling. But yeah, all good, Brendan. Yeah, yeah, back to the, back to the, yeah, it's going to be hard to beat, lad. Yeah, yeah, nice to be down in this part of the world, lovely part of the country. So it is for just for a few days. So it is, yeah, really nice. Now, weather hasn't been great, but it's still been nice. Yeah, yeah, Brendan, listen, I'm just getting your thoughts on the management. I was just saying there last year, we approached, obviously, Malaga, Rourke, and at the likes of Cornleaf Gilligan, Kevin and Lacey were in the background, Jim was going to come in. There's a lot of talk there about, there's going to be a new senior team, like a committee put together. It's going to be formed at tonight's kind of board meeting. So the closing dates for application was last Friday. So there's been a number of expressions of interest. So the selection committee will have the job of interviewing these candidates, but also seeking out a new person. Do you think that's the way to go, Brendan? Oh, yeah, Brendan, like, listen, it's a massive undertaking. And I think we, as supporters and Donegal followers, need to have a bit of patience and let this due process follow through and let them try and get the right people in the job, Brendan. It's a known or as task taken over any county team, but there has to be a process there that people are happy with and the people that are big enough and to put their hand up are given a fair chance and a fair shout. And we just have to wait and see how that transpires over the next few weeks. Obviously, we all want to see an appointment as soon as possible, particularly with the onset of the club championship over the next few weeks. And it'll be important that any prospective manager will get out and see what's available if there are any new players out there. But yeah, you have to give due process. And I think I heard you mention in there that some lads from the 92 team are involved and that kind of thing in the selection committee as such. So, you know, that's good to hear. And, you know, we all have Donegal's football best interests at heart. And it's a matter of just making sure that the right processes follow them, that we do get that person or that team when they do become available. Now, there's a bit of a word in the street here in the LK today about McGillis. Possibly, you know, obviously, he was approached last year, Brent, and I was coming to him. I just think he was a slag-o man. If he did come back in, I hope Carl McFadden comes up the road and you might not see that, Brent. But, you know, the likes of him and Durkin and that coach in there, you know, if Jim was to come back. I know, obviously, he's been pursuing soccer this last while and went on such a journey. Maybe he's thinking the time is right. You know, in a way that he had done put the down there this year, Brent. But in terms of what you've seen last year, you know, the players that were missing, if they come back, I suppose Jim, you know, you'll think you'll get a serious lift from the squad coming in.  Well, yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, obviously, the mention of Jim McGinnis will excite people, you know, based on his previous, you know, performance as manager of the county team back in the day. And obviously, you know, what's going to be crucial is that the availability of players, you know, we went through them, Brent, and there was eight or nine players that would probably be starters that weren't available for selection last year. And I think something like Jim's appointment, obviously, would excite them, players, you know, if you think back yourself, Brent, in our day, if you knew that someone like that was coming back in, it certainly would motivate you and make you want to be part of that setup, even though you'd have to go through a lot of pain for the winter, probably based on previous accounts. But, you know, it would be an exciting appointment for Donegal. And I think Donegal football would give it a great lift if that were the case, Brendan. But again, you know, it's speculation and, you know, Jim is a lot in the plate, young family, so we just have to wait to see how that transpires. Yeah, yeah, but listen to me, I suppose if he puts his name in a hat, that's a done deal. I don't think there's anything else really out there. You know, he's going to come with, you know, the man, I suppose, changed the face of football in many ways and took a team that was well outside the ranking, you know, right up into the champions. And certainly in terms of what we've seen this year from the youth and the new players that came through, combining that with a team that's somewhat, again, needs to be built, it seems like almost a great time for him to come back in and weave the magic again. I would think so, Brendan, I agree 100% with you, you know, that it is, I think it is a good time. I think there's a lot of talent there. I go back to the point about patience. I don't see us competing at all iron and level, you know, within 12 months, but it will take a bit of time. But I think if he's given that time and I think there's great potential there to do that, we see how strong, you know, Ulster counties have gotten recent years in the progress that the Armada, Derry, Monaghan, even down now are beginning to come back into the frame. So these teams are making a lot of progress. So they are. So it's really important that Doney Gull don't fall too far behind in that respect. And, you know, if Jim were to come in, I think he would really give that a big lift. So he would excite the players, he would excite the supporters and he would excite the county in general. And it would give us something to look forward to again next year. Yeah, fantastic stuff. Brendan, as ever, thanks so much.  I might do that, Brendan. Thank you. 100%. Good catch up to me. Great, as ever, Brendan. I'll see you soon. Yeah, Brendan, go calling there. As ever. Thanks very much. Sorry if we put technical problems there just. I'm going to take an ad break and after it, we'll attempt to get Peggy Bohn on. If you have any problems, we'll go to the phone. We're going to try them on the Zoom link first. I'll speak to you after this. Connect Hearing is open for free hearing tests. Our audiologist is available Monday to Friday for Wax Removal Services at our Letter Kinney Clinic in the Courtyard Shopping Centre. We also offer a home visit for those who aren't able to visit us. Our hearing is our social sense. Are you finding hearing more of a challenge? Call Ursula today on 07491 13296 to make an appointment. Good hearing helps us to connect to our family, friends and loved ones. Connect Hearing, connecting you to life. Being warmth and comfort to homes in Donegal and beyond for nearly 50 years. So visit our showrooms in Balibufe or call us on<PHONE_NUMBER> or online at thestovestore.ie for more details. 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Visit their showroom in Ballymogan-Lifert or call 9141109 or visit them online at harkinsfireplaces.ie. The DL Debate with Sister Sarah's Ladder Kenny, serving food you'll love till 9pm daily in Sarah's Kitchen. And there's free admission entertainment every weekend. Welcome back folks, welcome back to DL Debate. Now I'm delighted to say I'm joined by the man, the myth, the legend, Paki, Boner Paki. Are you on the Zoom? I am indeed. Can you hear me? Paki, that is mighty. It's great to hear your voice, sir. We've got a technical error just on the last one and I was hoping that everything would be all right. So great to hear you. I can even see you here on the monitor. So you're not aging at all. Hey, what's the secret? Age comes very quickly, to be honest. But I'm hanging in there, put it that way. Paki, so many questions.   You live through what was an absolutely phenomenal time in Irish sport, you know? It'll never be seen again, let's be honest, Paki. But very few people know about the early days and just so I don't lose my GA license here, Paki. We have to talk about these days on the GA. I didn't know much about this, to be honest, Paki. You came from a Clark class there out in the West Coast, you know, big family, five girls, you had a twin brother, mum and dad there, and a serious house of sport growing up? Yeah, listen, we came second, last in the family, myself and Dennis Twins. I think my mum and dad were, or my dad was desperate for a boy, so he ended up with two. But we were away out in Clark class, away down in Ray undercoast. And I suppose we grew up with football, soccer and Gaelic boat sports. We played both. We didn't play really competitive football that much until we were in our teens. But we were playing local, you know, we'll come from primary school, get our jobs done around the house, Brendan, you know, and then run over the fields and we would have organised with the rest of the young lads around the place that we were playing. At that time, it was probably mostly soccer because that's the pitch we had close to us. But then we played with Rosses Rovers and at that time we didn't have Ney of Wara, we didn't have Narossa, we didn't have Dudlow, it was all one club. And we probably started playing Gaelic football maybe when we were running around about the age of maybe 13, 14. So that was a two sports, no golf. At that time, Critch Island wasn't available to us. So we played sport and we loved our sport. And we, you know, I think the two of us having been twins, we were fortunate that we could actually get out on the grass beside the house and, you know, one would go in goals and one would kick in and vice versa. And, you know, that's the way we sort of kind of were brought up from that perspective. We loved our sport. But that wasn't a sports person, but loved sport, loved. He loved his boxing, he loved watching football. He travelled when we started to play down with local clubs. He started to travel with us and he loved it from that perspective. You know, we didn't, my uncle, we had only one uncle and he died when he was a very young man at 21. But he apparently was the footballer in the house. And I remember his boots in the back underneath the stairs and me trying to wear them and going out to play. Those, those were the memories, but it was a great memory. I want to look back and Brendan, you know, I think I actually feel privileged to have brought up in that environment, even though a lot of people in sport would say, well, you know, we were in a bit of, you know, out in the outskirts and probably wouldn't get an opportunity. But the upbringing was magnificent on the, on the beside the sea. And just, just so was when I look back in it now, I think I was privileged to have that kind of background plus then gone away when I was young at 18 to play football in a city like Glasgow. Yeah. And Peggy, funny, even you mentioned the boots there, you know, you think of the, the old boot rooms. You used to polish the boots. Of course, him days has gone, Peggy, but, you know, having boots as your own for that. I remember my nephew was going down a sports shop in town here to get pairs of boots. And one was 190 Euro and the other pair was 140. I was so taken aback by this. I was so out of the loop in that, in terms of, I think, when I was young for any pair of boots at all, that was going to be you for, for hard ground or soft ground or no matter what. It was interesting that the uncle's boots were still there. They were still under the stairs. I did wear them once out in a disintegrated bed away. When I put them on, it was the old boot. But I think they used to hammer in the studs. But our first boots actually was got by our, our, my dad's first cousin, Tony Caller up the road. And I remember him and his good friend, Ray Ham, coming down with the boots. And there were those black torn. You remember the black torn with the, what sort of kind of almost steel toe cap type boot? And that was when we were very, very young. So we were very privileged to get boots, as you say. Yes. And that gloves was a different matter, right? I didn't, the gloves was a real, there wasn't that many goalkeeper gloves or that gloves around at that time we were trying out all sorts of things. And my, my first gloves actually was I got from Peter McCloy, the Rangers goalkeeper over it when he, when he hit the sports shop down in Gervan. And he was the first to give me my real sports or goalkeeper gloves. So that was a thing. That was a thing in the future. It wasn't even thought about when I was young. Was baggy steel, steel cap boots? That sounds like a dangerous enough thing as a pitch. Back when men were men, there was nobody diving about then. Baggy, just growing up then at school and at the local club there, Rassus, we always in goals. Did you play at the pitch a bit as well? No, I played, as I say, played in goals and soccer, you know, and when we were young. I love diving around, I loved getting in there. And as I said to myself and Dennis, we'll go out and play and verbally I would end up in goals. But I loved it because we were diving and making saves and trying to emulate the heroes of, you know, the Patshiannings and Peter Shilton's and the Ray Clemens. Those were my heroes when I was young, watching them on TV. So you went out and tried to emulate them in soccer. But in Gaelic, I played a little wee bit in goals for Rassus Rovers. Initially it was Noel McColl, who was the goalkeeper, but I remember going into goals a couple of times. I didn't really like it. I didn't like it because you were confined almost to your goal line.  So you can almost were kind of isolated in the goal. So I didn't like it.  I was lanky. I could catch the ball. I couldn't do much more with it, but I could catch it and give it to the other ones to go and try and score their points and so on. And I was good up among people. And I loved it actually, and when I got then and we would forwarder on and maybe play some county football, I kind of ended up starting off in corner forward and then moving back out into midfield. So that's kind of how it all sort of... Dennis played also, and Dennis played, he was more centre half back. He was powerful, strong, killed people. Yeah, you'd be grand though, Paggy, because you come out the pitch and kick points and everything. You could play in there, so you could play anywhere. It's usually the evolution. If I had a fast forwarder from that time, you'd have seen a keeper and Crow Park coming out. They had a point, you would have been away with that. That can't happen, but that's how sport evolves. Paggy, of course, you went over to England pretty young before you did, Paggy. I knew that you played some underage with Donegal. I had no idea you actually played senior. And, you know, to me, going up, I used to hear these stories of Seamus Boner and Martin Griffin and Noel McCool and Kearney and all these guys. And you played along these guys for senior Donegal? Yeah, listen, we were very fortunate. Sean Donald was the manager at the great Sean, and he had picked us with a very good minor team. And, you know, we were actually doing well, and Sean then sort of kind of pushed a few of us into the senior team. And it was, I think, it was the second division we were in at that particular time. But, you know, the likes of Noel, you know, with the local lads like Noel McCool, Eugene Sharkey, Gerald McLean, the boner, Jim Brennan, who was mailman, working of the garden, Donegal, and those were the ones we played club football with. And then getting into the senior team alongside Donelle Evies and Seamus Boner's and Finnean Ward's and those, Martin Kearney was a great influence on me, actually, because I remember, you know, Martin being a very skillful player and I got into the team along. I watched him for the very first time, actually, when we played against him down in Neve Waters' pitch now. We played, I think, with St. Joseph's and the championship game. And I always remembered the game, actually, because there was a bit of a battle and I remember there was a bit of fighting going on in different things, as you would expect. And Jay, at that particular time, we were trying to get one over them. But Martin stood back and he was a county man at the time and he stood back and he kind of almost at the end shook everybody's hand and made up. And that learned me a big lesson, actually, by sportsmanship for Martin, you know. And I was able to take that. And I was delighted to be able to play with these guys then in the senior team and that. But we were young. We were only, you know, I was only 17, 18 at the time, just turning 18 and we played. And my first game was against Lytrum, actually, down in O'Donnell Park in Larrakenny and I played corner forward that day. It was a winter's day. I remember snow on the pitch and there was another young lad from Lytrum, actually, I think he had a bad injury in the game. They made it, for example, on that particular day. And that's the kind of memory I have from it. We played in the league. When it got to the championship, we, as I say, we had a good minor team. So Shandyn plays in the championship team. He almost put us into the minor team. And that was my kind of involvement in the J at that particular time.  But just, you never know, if I didn't go to soccer, where would I have continued to play soccer or maybe pushed on to maybe the county team and won a few honours with them. But never won anything in JAA. I think the year I left, actually, the ad done low went on. And one, or Ross is over, sorry, went on and won a kind of a medal of some description the year after, but I missed out, unfortunately. Well, listen, I think where you went, that took you to a good place.  But certainly, I think the past, you took, suited all of us and suited the whole country. You were saying there, Peggy, you had a good minor team as well. You were beating the first round to Derry, I suppose. The way that's changed now, you know, you've group stages, you've second chances and generally, you don't get caught on a day, which I think is probably a fairer outcome, Peggy. But listen, what an amazing time there, growing up. And probably your size, Peggy, which was going to stand you as a goalkeeper, put you under that frame of playing for Donegal because you had developed very young very early, you had a good set of hands. You had re-trial with Leicester, which didn't work out, but it was a blessing in the skies, Peggy, because you had family in Glasgow. You got the call to go over for a trial. And from then on, just reading the great Jacques Steenmiser, you were actually his last signing, Peggy. He landed over to Glasgow, but as you said, in your reference here on Keirna Donald's book, Donegal's Great Sporting Heroes, about the fact that you had family over there. And for all you ever hear, Peggy, is about the young men. I was even talking to somebody on a bit famous Coleman when he came, he was desperately homesick and his father sent over his brother to kind of get him through the phase. So that would have been a difficult time, Peggy, but not as difficult because you went over to an Irish-rich city, Glasgow, and you had family there, and your career started to take off? Yeah, you know, listen, I did go over to Leicester City. I was over and back for a full year, actually, and playing in the Youth Cup. And quite enjoyed it. John O'Neill, actually, from Derry, would have been around the club at that time. I think he was in Luckby University, and we used to stay in a hostel and he would come up at the weekends, and there was other guys who would stay, but I was very young. Listen, I was only 16, 17, and he didn't sign me.  Sean Fallon, the great Sean Fallon, was Chief Scout at Celtic, watched me play in the Irish youth team and asked me to come over and trial. And to get over to Celtic was probably a dream because, you know, they were the team that we all probably supported, even though we didn't see them. We didn't see them live as such. I think the first time I watched Celtic was, they came over to play in the game for the Bordenport disaster, the fishing disaster, and they came over and played in Balboffay, and I think I watched them at that particular time playing. And I was just, I don't know what it was. It was something about the Irish heritage that they got all people going over and back, you know, working over there, you know, taking back the stories, telling us about my family, my uncle-in-law. Those were big Celtic supporters who lived in Glasgow. So they always had this connection with Celtic. So to get over and trial, and you're right, you know, going over, leaving home, leaving a family, a big, big family, and probably leaving my friends, the lads I played with to go into a city was very, very daunting. And I can really, you know, see how Seamus was thinking when he went over. I cried myself to sleep on many occasions after I signed because I was committed. I was committed then, I couldn't go home. And that other thing, Brendan, you know, we are very resilient people, our Stonygall people, and we kind of stick together when we go away from home. And I did have a very good family to go to, and I also had good friends and around Govan Hill that I would go down and visit and take that sort of loneliness out of it. But, you know, one thing that you didn't want to do was give up.   We didn't have a phone in the house. It was later on, we got a phone in. And so it was very, very hard to keep in contact with people. You know, it was down to letters. People sending letters and all of that. Even people didn't travel over as much as they did in latter years. You know, if you met somebody outside the ground on a match day, it was a wonderful experience. So all of that homesickness, you had to handle it. You had to really put it into a space and say, well, guys, listen, football is the thing. I'm here to do it, to try to make a career out of it. I'm going to stick with it and I'm not going to give up. And that can almost help me maybe even to become resilient when I came down to maybe times when you were going through, maybe not playing so well and having to dig in there and make it happen. Maybe that Jee background also was a bit to do with that. But that was that famous time you would grip the teeth there. We'd be watching you if you used to be there, Greg. But you could have just jumped me back and said, now you just mentioned that they're nice, no use. That's where you were seeing, is that where it came from? And did that come? How did that even come about? Did that come through schools or did that come through a trial as well or did somebody see you to play for the Irish youth? Well, we had an inter-provincial tournament, which was obviously Linster, Connacht, Monster and Dunny. And Dunny Gaw was representing almost Ulster. Yes. And we had some great school teams at that time, Dunny Gaw youth teams, the lads out in Remelton, out that area, the Kelly Beggs lads, Dunny Gaw Town, Guidore ourselves, Etter Kenny, all very, very good players. And they all played soccer and they played Gaelic football. But we knew each other. And then we got into a Dunny Gaw youth team under Richie Kelly, actually. And Pat McCalligan was from Lifford and he was the other guy. But Richie was fantastic for us.  He was working in BBC for many years down the foil. And he was a good man. He brought us all together and created a very good team. And we were very successful. We ended up winning the inter-provincials. And I think then I remember us playing Linster, actually, in the final of the inter-provincials. And we beat them. And Linster was always the top team. They were always the dubs. They were always going to win things. And for us to beat them. And I kind of played well and the game stood out. Declan McIntyre was the other goalkeeper at the time. And he got injured in one of the games and ended up playing. And that little bit of fortune helped me also from that perspective. And then once you got into the youth team, that's when then you got recognised, really. Yeah, yeah. Funny, no detective in the L.A. He's a character. You're one of the most normal keepers I've met now, Pat. You've always been saying for years, keepers are wired up where you've been differed. Absolutely. You've seen one of the same ones. Funny, I've something small and calm here. And Richie Kelly's the next manager of mine. And we had a great time with him. Don't quote me on that. It was as Richie be talking. Don't quote me on that, the old BBC live. But, Peggy, that's brilliant. Obviously, Jock Steen stepped away. Billy McNeill took over. And as you were saying, it was a fresh start. And it gave you an opportunity to break in that first team. And just Peggy, the history and being around Park Head.  It must have been a phenomenal time. And I know it was tough betting on that, but the actual play inside of it and the lads and the exposure, the excitement of it, it must have been a thrilling time. It was, you know, and going over the area. It was very a homely tech club. I miss Sean Fallon, I must admit, but Sean stayed sort of quite close to us and went to the same chapel. So he used to invite us down for dinner and so on. But it was a new, new, new.  John Clark was assistant. It was almost like as if they were kind of looking at everybody on a fresh basis. And, you know, even though I was a young boy, I was treated probably in their eyes as an other player rather than the kid who's just come in. And that helped me because it helped me then to sort of kind of almost position myself away. But they sold Roy Baines, who was the other goalkeeper. At the time, Roy went and it was only myself and Peter Latchford actually that was left as two goalkeepers. Now, nowadays, modern football, you have probably four or five goalkeepers and a team, you know? So it was reserve football, first team football. I played in the reserves, Peter played in the first team, but we trained together. We all trained together, which was unique. The club itself was the big old stadium. You know, it was a fairly tough area around the east end of Glasgow. That's when you look at the club now, the changes they made around the club is phenomenal. It's a huge difference in that. So on the training grounds up in Barrafield, we only had one pitch, we had a Nash pitch beside it. Again, now they're out in Lenox town up in six, seven pitches. All those things have changed. But it was a brilliant time and the dressing room was fantastic. Great people, Danny McGrane, you know, a legend going into a world-class player, captain of the club. He played, he was injured at the time. He played a lot in the reserves and he would be in the first year or so. Tommy Burns, God rest him. Roy Akin, Pat Stanton, Ronnie Glavin, you could go through and Paul Wilson, you know, loads and loads of great, great players, all legends in their own right. And for me, as a young guy, to go over there and step in among them, fill it from Danny Gall, was absolutely unique. And then trying to hold your own and among it was quite incredible. But something I look back on with fond memories, to be perfectly honest, you know, the first couple of years, it was tough, but you had to dig in there. Training was tough. I remember the first training session being over even and when I was in trial, they used those white miter balls, Brendan, you know, and they were rock hard at times. And I remember we had no gloves, remember skin coming off my hand, coming back from training the first day. But you had to get used to all them things.  I think it was six foot two, 12 and a half stone. When I finished my career, I was sort of 14 and a half stone. Wasn't overweight, just put on a bit of muscle. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Listen, Peggy, for the breakthrough and the asceltic, Peggy, how did that come about for you? Did you, did you were able to nail down the number one spot? Well, I was lucky because, you know, you know, again, as I said, myself and Peter was the two goalkeepers. Peter wasn't going through a great time in it, just during period round about March, 1979. And it happened to a fall that Billy gave me my debut on St Patrick's Day, 1979, which is again a unique day for any Irish man. So I played, did okay. Bobby Lenox scored two on the day. There wasn't a big crowd at the match, I remember if you look at the stats. And then I played probably about 10 days later against Motherwell, again, away this time. It didn't play very well, my grandmother died at home. And I think that probably affected me. It wasn't an excuse, but I probably should have been home for the funeral, didn't go home because I was picked in the team and I kind of just really felt really down after that. And then I was out of the team for probably about 10 months. I was playing in reserve football and then it got a lucky break again at the start of the following season. And what Peter got an injury. He was up at training, I was away home. I wasn't even there and he ended up, I got a phone call to say Peter's been injured and we're playing in Danny McGrane's testimonial against Manchester United a couple of days later. So that was me into the team. And then I had a bit of a run as you know, Brian, you need a bit of luck and you need to get in there. And I had a wee bit of a run then in the team and I could show people what I could do. And that was how it all started. Yeah, a phenomenal debut in St Patrick's Day, written on the stars there. Peggy, listen, Maddy asked you so many questions, but I heard him. Here's what I was thinking just a Peggy at the time. You mentioned a bit of it there, but the major balls and no gloves. I mean, that's hard to believe.  Did you socialise a bit then and it was different times and all that then. How was that? Were you staying along with other younger pros or how was life then? No, I stayed with my aunt and uncle, the first aunt and uncle up on your end. And then they moved back actually to Tiller or Kenny about a year later and I moved down to my other aunt down in Sims Hill, my mum's sister, auntie, bridge and her husband. And I can almost didn't have the choice. I think she, when he came over first, had to stay in digs and so on among the other young lads. I didn't do that. And I think that probably was good in one way because I was kind of almost told not to go out and not to go out into the pubs, into the garbles or down into Victoria Road or into the Irish bar. So I can almost stay away from all of that. I was kind of forced to do that by my uncle and so on. And so I went out a little bit, but not maybe to the extent I would have if I was maybe in digs or with some of the other lads and so on. But at that time, you know, you didn't go out anyway. You know, two days before a game, you know, it was a bit getting up in the morning, getting in, training, resting, training, resting and playing and so on. And that was your life really. There was no, you had a bit of socialising, but very, very little. Even on a Saturday night after you beat the Rangers? Yeah, well, on a Saturday night, we would have maybe went out for a minute, met my wife and actually very quickly after I went over a couple of years after. And she settled me into a routine then. So we'd go for a meal maybe in a few pounds. We did. We did have the luxury of maybe going. We didn't have actually a players lounge in the club at that time. That was kind of when you think of all what all the players get now is incredible, but we didn't even have a players lounge. So we didn't actually socialise in the club. But what we did do is on a Saturday after the game, we were going to into town and we went to have a famous pub called Archies. And at that time, you may have been in sort of half five after the game, six o'clock. And then you would sort of sit down with the likes of Danny McGrane and Tommy Adam and those guys.  And then the place we get packed up and we would end up going off somewhere else sensible, some sensible place, Brenda. But that was about a Saturday night, maybe it would be a social night and the rest of it was work. Yes, yes. Are you here? And listen, it was a lively city, no doubt. I suppose there are certain places you needed to watch where you were going as well, being a Celtic man. Peggy, tell me this, Peggy. Ireland came calling. Who was the first manager that came after you there?  You know, we're about to hit a phenomenal time in every sport and you were going to be right at the centre of it. Who first gave you the call for the senior under Arsenal? Well, actually I was in the squad with Johnny Giles. Believe it or not, Johnny Giles was the manager up to 1979 and he put me in a squad myself and John Devine, who was with Arsenal, a young lad that played under 21 football with John. And I don't know why he put me into the squad. He put me in the squad because he had Jerry Payton and he had Seamus McDonough and so on. And but I just think maybe he's seen something in us and he wanted to give us a little bit of, you know, what's it all about international football? We went to Paris actually when they played out in Paris in the last game. And then it was about, you know, getting into the team and it was on hand. It was the manager then next after Johnny and he picked me in the squad. Although at that time it was kind of almost like a rotation. He played Seamus McDonough, he was at Everton at the time, played him in the first team and then myself and Jerry Payton sort of almost took game for game and we were in the squad. And we had no goalkeeper coach or anything of that nature and that. I only had played nine games, believe it or not, until Jack Charlton took over in 1990. What was it, 1990? Sorry, I'm trying to think now. 1986, Jack took over round about that. So I made my debut in 81 and I only had nine caps, right? You know, which people think, you know, now I look at some of the young boys and they've got 60, 70 caps by the time they're that age. So I was 26 when Jack took over and Seamus had retired at that point in time.  I was fortunate because I remember playing in a tournament up in Iceland, a tournament that we won but I didn't actually play well in the tournament. And I thought, oh, that's it. Now you manage your Jack Charlton. He won't fancy a Scottish goalkeeper or should I say, a Irish goalkeeper playing in Scotland. And that, but he did. And he must have just seen something in me and stuck with me and let me play. And then I just went on sort of almost another 70, 71 caps or so, you know, which was an incredible period of time that we went through under Jack. But Jack was the main man for me. Owen giving me my debut, Johnny giving me my first feel of international football. Yeah, and he was some time the players and all top team players, and I don't want to be disrespectful to the current players there and that, but you know, where the likes of Ireland pick from now is so different with the money that's gone on the Premier League. But at the time it was all the top teams, Scotland and in England. And when you look back at these absolute household names and none of us really, I suppose we hadn't qualified for a tournament, but bang, here comes Germany in 88. The course going on, they beat the English first day. And the phenomenal balls that just came in the Avery soccer then, Peggy, it must have been an unbelievable roller coaster ride then in the Italian 80 and on the USA in 84. I mean, the memories of it, that was just a young lad growing up, but I'll never ever forget it, you know. And for you being in the middle of that, did you sense coming in there that we have a team here? There's no reason why we can't qualify for major tournaments. And that bit of belief started to go on because we did knock on the door a few times, you know, on hand and I say, John Jones was in there, but it wasn't the Jackie command that we got across the lane and qualified. Yeah, and those barriers are always there for most sports people, you know, you've got to get across them somehow. And for years and years, we had good teams, really good teams, but we just never managed to get it. I was fortunate to say that I was around when Jack took over, but he gave us self-belief, incredible belief actually. And we started to win games away from home. I think, you know, we beat Brazil in Dublin, which was a milestone, Liam scored. But I think the game in when we beat Scotland at Hamden was the one that I always look back on and say, that sort of kind of almost cemented our belief that we can actually go and do something. You know, up until that Ireland was struggling to win games away from home, but at that particular one, we had a few draws and so on, but beating Scotland in there and at Hamden. For me, in particular, it was a fantastic occasion because some of the silly players that I was playing week in and week out were playing in the Scotland team, the Roy Aikens and Paul McStays and so on, from that perspective. But we had a good team. When you look at the players, look at the players that we had. And I quote this, and I'm going to quote it again tonight. You know, that game that played tonight, you know, Paul McGrath played right back with Manchester United. Left back was Ronnie Wheele Liverpool. Centre halves, Mick McCarthy was at Man City, the 10-D in came up to us at Celtic. Kevin Moore, Manchester United. You know, on the right-hand side, Ray Houghton, Liverpool. Midfield was Liam Brady who had just, I think maybe just left Juventus, but played out in Italy. Mark Lawrence in Liverpool. Left wing, Tony Galvin, Tottenham. And up front, John Aldridge, Liverpool and Frank Staples and Manchester United.  So we had an unbelievable strong team. A team that was one in things at club level and qualified for European competition. You know, I was in goals, I played with Celtic for quite a number of years in European competitions. The Liverpool lads won in European Cups and so on. So it was just, I think, a matter of time before we broke that barrier. And once we did it and we grew in confidence, then, wow, I think we just, the belief and what Jack gave us made it very simple, Brendan. You know, he didn't over complicate things. Maybe some people will probably look back and say, maybe we should have played a bit more football and so on and so forth. But he looked at European football and international football and he said, if we do these things, we'll be successful. And that's what we were. And the way that it captured the imagination of the fans and the Irish people was incredible also. And if you think about, listen, you know, over here tonight talking on the show where it's maybe predominantly, maybe, J.A., you talk about Brendan, but from that perspective, it captured the minds and imagination of people within the heart of the J.A. also, the rugby people. And they all came on that journey with us because we were Irish. We wanted to do something very, very special for our country. The pride was only true as... And that's a phenomenal thing to be able to achieve, to get everybody on the one side. Success helps, of course. And then qualifying for the World Cup in 1990 was just a dream come true for all of us. Yeah, and this big, huge, phenomenal. I mean, obviously, you said 88, 90, 94.  I mean, the memories of that big, of course, the famous shootout at the Mavi penalty. I was only reading back there where you said a couple of players came in and celebrated with you and you were afraid they could have the penalty retaken. I didn't know this at all. That must have been a frightening prospect. But that moment, when you saved that penalty, the joy of progressing this Irish team is, you know, finally on the world stage at that point that we're going all the way to a quarter. I mean, it was unbelievable stuff. And as you said there, the talent was there. And I love the fact that Jack instilled that belief in you because something just special happened around that Irish team at the time.  You know, I talk about leadership a lot and Jack would be the one person that would sort of pick out from a point of view of giving us that responsibility to take on certain things that nobody else would have asked us to do. You know, he asked me to do all the defensive stuff, which I had to do as a young man and tell people like Liam Brady and, you know, Mick McCarthy and Kevin Moore and Paul McGrath, those kind of guys to go and do certain things defensively from set pieces. And that was never given to me before, probably at Celtic. And so I look back and I grew, I grew in a team with that from that perspective. 88 was phenomenal. Beaton England was phenomenal. I think that was the one I picked out mostly as my favorite game. But then when you go on the world stage to a different level, look at the girls at the moment, you know, the European Championships or whatever, even England European Championship, but no, once you get to the World Cup, you're against the top teams in the world. You're playing against top players. Players that you can only sort of kind of look back and when you were young yourself, and I was influenced by 1970 in the World Cup and the Great Brazil team at that time. And then suddenly to be in that position yourself, actually doing it in Italy was unbelievable, unbelievable for all of us. Tough our games, going out to Sardinia first, then down to Sicily, and then into the big one up in Genoa, which has changed people's lives, I think. Yeah, just thinking about the big booming kick on the Qan against the Dutch. I was thinking now you... That was penetrating passes. Listen, I'll give you that. See, now you would have to put that down and play it about you. We're doing stepovers now, Paki, if we put you in the modern game. Paki, listen, obviously the USA, the heat out there seemed to be massive, but again, an unbelievable tournament from Naevis. And again, Naevis, they asked me out there. Paki, listen, all I remember from my youth is the celebration around it, it created, because we were going from a point of not even being there and the fact that we progressed at all or got out of groups and that, I mean, it was phenomenal stuff. Paki, I just have a couple of quick questions for you, Paki. This one saying if you were starting all over now, Paki, would you be playing for Dunlore and Ivorra? Ha-ha-ha-ha. Dunlore's my team, sorry to say. Sorry, it's your bro, Owen, Colin, your brother, and I'll put me up to that one, sorry. Paki, there's a few teams... Even though, sorry, hold on, even though my mother was from Molleduff... Right, right, okay. I'll put it back at the pitch and Ivorra. That's diplomatic. I heard you nearly got on the politics, actually, Paki. That's very diplomatic. That was almost an option. Paki, another question here. There's a lot of taste coming in, Paki, just thanks so much for the memories and the phenomenal time people had in their lives. There's one here asking, this is from Mark and Liffords. Well, this might be a bit loaded, this question. Who was the best, Paki, or Shea Given? Ha-ha-ha. You can tell, Shea, that I was in a local cafe last week and they were putting up, they had tips, right? And they had two cups, one with Shea on it and one with myself on it. Right. And I got the most tips, so there you are. That answers the question. Brad, a couple of quick ones. In terms of Celtic or Ireland, who was the biggest characters? Were there any people like outside of the box in terms of crack or guys that would just pull the whole dressing room in Celtic or Ireland? I mean, you'd have unbelievable. What 17 years of Celtic trophy laden was there a different standout characters in there from those days at Ireland or at Celtic? Yeah, listen, I think the 1980s was a phenomenal time at Celtic for us. We had a really good team. But it was a funny, funny dressing room, great dressing. Tommy was a very, very funny man. Almost lit up the dressing room. He had some exception, but it was a banter more than anything else, you know, and stuff that we got up to and that. I think with the Irish team, we had very wise guy who, kind of, Andy Townsend was a great tumourist from, obviously, coming from London himself and Tony Caskreen and those over that. But there was London accents and they had the stories and so on. It was all good fun, great crack. We all got on well. It was like, the Irish team was like a club team, I've got to say. We had great nights out, I've got to say. He didn't end up being Paul McGrath. He won't let me Paul McGrath any time now. Paul's a fantastic man, a very quiet guy, individual actually. But no, Paul, you know, he's one of his own, we've had the rest of us sort of kind of met up and we went out in the town and enjoyed our success, put it that way. Yeah, yeah, well listen, the success, Peggy, we all enjoyed it. I could talk to you all night and I'm sure everybody down in the home place, everybody here in Donegal, indeed Ireland. Peggy, want to thank you so much for the career that you had, the time that you had with Celtic in Ireland. It was brilliant talking to you. Wish you all the best and we are working with the FEI now in the future. I keep up the good work. A great man to be looking at the next generation and bringing them through. Yeah, it's pleasure, Brendan, and it's always nice also to see young Donegal people. Hopefully the girls will do well out in the World Cup in the next couple of games to Amber, make it a run, who knows, Kiera Grant make it a run also and it's great to see. And all the other young boys and this got an opportunity to go and play, whether it's for Donegal or whether it's for the international team or underage, I just wish them all the very best and if they can live what I went through, then they'll be very, very happy. Thanks very much. That's brilliant. Great fun. It's a baggy boner. Great to talk to you. Thank you. That was brilliant. They're a baggy boner. I want to thank you for producing the Monday Night Stations. It's coming up. I'll speak to you all next week. The DL Debate with Sister Sarah's Laddercanny, serving food you'll love till 9 p.m. daily in Sarah's kitchen and there's free admission entertainment every weekend. Broadcasting throughout the Northwest and across the world online. This is Highland Radio. Live on air online and on the Highland Radio app. This is Highland Radio News. It's 8 o'clock. Good evening, my melon butler. The thonet that says Irish people who want to cancel trips to Greek islands hit by wildfires should be refunded. Mio Martin has urged Irish people in Rhodes and Corfu to follow the local advice some holidaymakers have had.


So, I will define this. So, a Nash equilibrium is simply this. So, a Nash equilibrium is simply b1 star to bn star such that J i of b1 star to bn star is less than equal to J i of b i comma b minus i star for all b i and for all players i ok. And the Bayesian Nash equilibrium is this kind of weight and watch equilibrium is a b1 star to bn star such that J i of b1 star to bn star given T i is less than equal to. So, J i of b1 star to bn star is less than equal to J i of b i comma b minus i star given T i for all b i and for all types T i in T i and for all players i. So, what is the difference between the two? The difference is that should this game be when I asked should this game be played here and should this game be played here? What is the difference? The difference is that here in above the strategies are being chosen before the types get realized alright. Of course, the strategies are functions or behavioral strategies. So, they are planning for every possible type ok. Here the strategy itself is being although it is of course making use of the type information, but it is being chosen after the type gets realized, but your own type only remember not the type you do not know the types of the others alright. So, that is the subtlety. Now, it turns out actually that once you think about it clearly enough actually this collapses very nicely and we can it turns out that it is not that hard to see that these two are in fact the same ok. So, there is let us define this form called the agent form ok. This has other names also some people called it extended form or whatever. So, in the agent form what happens is see I will give you an intuitive picture see essentially remember we have like the in the terrorist example security example you had three possible types for the traveler he could be a terrorist he could be a smuggler or he could be a he could be innocent right. So, there are these three possible types of the traveler and in each case once his type gets realized he is he is one of the two one of the three right. So, as a security officer what I am doing is I am actually playing not against one of one player, but rather three different players. So, each type of each player is essentially a distinct distinct sort of person or distinct entity ok. So, once you realize that essentially it is like essentially once you know the type you are a distinct player right because after that the tree splits and what you do not what the player knows his own type and but does not know the types of the others ok. So, what you can create is this what we call an agent form in which every type of every player becomes a pseudo player ok and so then when you look at these equations then these equations which look like a kind of a strong form of a Nash equilibrium is essentially now a Nash equilibrium strategy that each type of each player is playing separately. So, these are now equations for all ti and for all inn right. So, for So, you club these to every type of every player if he is a distinct player. So, then it is like a Nash equilibrium, but with a larger set of players ok. So, this is basically the key idea and that that gives us everything that we need. So, let us just write these things out. So, first let us an agent form is essentially has union of ti players ok and so that means is and it means the number of players is summation size of ti. So, the actions for player i is this for player rather for player ti is this. Now, I can just index players or identify players with just the type name right. So, for the actions for player ti is now ai of ui of ti ok and what is the pay off that this guy gets he gets ai of. So, here let me write an action profile u ok. Now, this is the this is a fixed action profile for so actions of all summation ti players. Now, I want to write the write the cost of player ti when all players have chosen these action this action profile u ok. So, this is going to be what I would get what player i would get in when these actions are when these actions are chosen. So, if you remember we had this where is the this here right when these actions are chosen in a certain in a certain type profile right. So, this is t comma u and then I take p of t minus i given ti and you do summation over t minus i ok. So, assuming others have taken an action if assuming an action profile u taken by all the summation ti players you just average out to this take the average by doing a conditional expectation over t minus i ok. This now defines for defines for you a payoff for type i player for player i is type i which for us is player ti is this clear ok. And now what you can show is actually this theorem. So, this theorem is at a Bayesian Nash equilibrium is equivalent to a Nash equilibrium of the agent form ok. So, this so you take a so you take so the Bayesian Nash equilibrium effectively as a just as I said that it is as if there are summation ti players here because this is being written for every type of every player. So, it effectively becomes this reduces to a Nash equilibrium of the of the agent form ok. Now, this theorem is actually not that important for us to prove but what we will prove today is this one which is so this was by Harsani in 1967 and so this Bayesian Nash equilibrium is equivalent to a Nash equilibrium. So, the one the Nash equilibrium that we defined where players are which is this one here which is defined at this you know where strategies were chosen at the start of the game is equivalent to this where strategies are being chosen after the types get realized ok alright. So, let us just quickly do the proof of this not that hard. So, first let us show this Bayesian Nash equilibrium is this is also a Nash equilibrium ok. So, let B star so by the way I forgot to mention since I am going to be dividing by you know probabilities like this you say I have to assume that all probabilities are positive ok. So, no division by 0 and all that stuff ok. So, let us not worry about those things. So, P is always for all types ok at B star B a Bayesian Nash equilibrium then for each i in n. So, we have assuming B star is a Bayesian Nash equilibrium. So, I have to look at this B star given j i of B star given P i now ok because I am conditioning on T i this is less than equal to j i of B i comma B minus i star given T i ok. Now, suppose the now this is a behavioral strategy ok. So, given the type I am choosing a pure strategy from for each type. So, there are again I did not mention this, but again there are finitely many pure strategies for the player finitely many pure strategies which means that when I write this over all B i. So, this has to be true for all B i right this has to be true for all all behavioral strategies B i which means in particular it is true for all pure strategies ok. So, if I have actions so in particular this means that this is less than equal to this here this is true for all actions u i that player i could take in this type ok. Now, for take any pure strategy gamma i that maps take any pure strategy gamma i now what is the payoff under that pure strategy gamma i while others play B minus i star and this is the payoff this is the x anti payoff before the start of the game ok. So, what is this equal to this is equal to does everyone see this. So, here is the payoff that I am writing form a pure strategy gamma i where the others play B minus i star behavioral strategy B minus i star. Now, when I play pure strategy gamma i essentially it means that I am going to take an action gamma i of T i when my type is T i all right and that is when I take that action ok the payoff that I get is this thing here all right and then I am averaging by taking expectation over T i all right and now what is this quantity here well this here the the this quantity here is actually present here right. So, this guy is in fact greater than equal to P of T i J i of B star given T i and this is therefore J i of B star right. So, what did I what did we just prove we just proved that J i of B star is less than equal to J i of gamma i comma B minus i star right. So, then now what do I well this this is true for every gamma i since this is true for this is true for each gamma i that implies that J i of B star is less than equal to J i of B i comma B minus i star B minus i star for all B i which means that this is a B star is a Nash equilibrium ok. So, in short if you take a Bayesian Nash equilibrium in which players are choosing the strategies after knowing their types then that you average the whole thing out and you get a Nash equilibrium at at the x anti Nash equilibrium ok. So, the it is the reverse that is a little bit more interesting right. So, now what you will want to show is this Nash equilibrium is a every Nash equilibrium is a Bayesian Nash equilibrium ok. So, suppose now that suppose B star is a Nash equilibrium, but not a B not a B and E. Now, suppose it is a Nash equilibrium, but not a Bayesian Nash equilibrium ok then what would happen if it is a Nash equilibrium, but not a Bayesian Nash equilibrium. Now think about the agent form that means there is going to be at least one type of one player who is one who would want to deviate from B star right. So, so again essentially the you know in a Bayesian Nash equilibrium in a Bayesian Nash equilibrium there are summation T i many players. So, if this is not a Bayesian Nash equilibrium then there is going to be some in some case that means at least one type of one player some there is going to be an incentive for deviation means there exists at least one one i and at T i in capital T i and an action for that player.  So, that means this J i of a given T i this is strictly greater than this U i. Now, why did I reduce this to actions see if actually there is at least one behavioral strategy in the or at least one probability distribution on the actions that gives you better, but once there is a probability distribution that gives you strict inequality it means that there is at least one pure strategy that is going to give you a strict inequality that is what it would mean because the probability distribution is just averaging over the pure strategies after all. So, that means there is one action for this T player in this type which gives you a strict inequality is this clear. So, this is less than this. So, now again go back and think about just the way we had you know we had argued in this informationally inferior games and so on. So, now if there is a better action that you could take in some type and the type was aware was known to you then what could you do then you could take that that action even before the type came was known to you and put that as part of your plan. Right? This was the same argument that we use. So, essentially if so with this additional information of the type if there was an action that you could take which was better which is better for you once the type gets realized you could put the take that action incorporate that action in your plan even when you did not have the information of the type. Right? And that is exactly how we showed the that equilibria of inferior games carry over as equilibria of richer games. If there was a you know if there was some place a player could take a better action you started off with exactly this sort of premise. We said suppose there is an equilibrium of the inferior game which is not an equilibrium of the richer game which means that there is some deviation possible in some once you have some additional information. But then if there was such a deviation then you could plan for it and you could play plan for it and play for it even when you did not have that information. Right? So, same sort of logic here.  So, that is exactly this thing construction here consider B hat i of so this guy what it does is it takes it mimics B star i for all types except for this particular one. So, let us call this T i dash for all T i, T i dash not equal to T i. So, that is this special type where you had the deviation for all other except for that type you are just you are just mimicking mimicking what you did in the starred strategy. And once you get to this type where you where there is a deviation possible you take the action that was supposed that supposedly is better right this action which is better you take this action. And now under this this is now another behavioral strategy and under this behavioral strategy you can compute the payoff that you can compute the payoff that you would get even if you did not know the know the types. So, you get B hat i comma B minus i star you take this summation of P of T i T i dash let us say this J i of B hat i B minus i star given T i dash and this is write this out this is T i dash not equal to that special T i in which case when it is not equal to you are just playing it is the same as doing B star and when it is equal to you do P of T i and you take that special action U i and this guy becomes now strictly less than J of B star by using this is just by using this particular thing this is using the strict inequality here. So, thing I am using again is as I said you know we avoid pathological cases. So, because I get a strict inequality because all the probabilities are positive. If one of the probabilities becomes 0 a lot of pathologies emerge and so on. So, those kind of corner cases I mean they are interesting but interesting more mathematically than you know the then for the underlying logic of the game. So, that is not such a big attraction for a separate study. So, which would mean then that B star is not a Nash equilibrium a contradiction.