those things like the juicy stuff is when we live life all in, when we're protecting ourselves from not engaging and not not living a full life, were missing out on so much of it. But I think a lot of us tend to do that. I know that and then of course we have to bring another concept into this whole podcast on that spirituality yes. If we disconnected so much that we loose and touch with our core being and our sense of spirit, then there's almost like a spiritual wilderness. That sounds scary, when you said that, that spiritual wilderness I felt the reaction to that. It's like.... We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is the therapy show behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to episode 58, Bob. Sevens you're looking on, but we haven't got one in this one. So in this episode, we're going to be looking at the search for meaning in therapy. You know, I know you say it's the 58th, but of all the titles of podcasts, this probably is one of the most important. I feel important, poignant, precious or whichever language I want to use because this is why I think people come to therapy. Actually, there may come for lots of reasons which are triggering them in the presence. They may come and look at trauma. They can look at many things in their histories. Usually in therapy, though, as you work through the layers, you get to existential issues, which are all about the meaning of purpose of their lives and the psychotherapy to train. Now, one of the most poignant books you could get to read is by Victor Frankel, Victor J. Frankel. I don't know when he wrote this book. It's a long time ago. It might have been in the 70s or early 80s, you know, and it's called the search of meaning. I think it's called the search of meaning. Yes, anyway, it's by Victor J. Frankel, and he himself was a psychoanalyst, I think, or stroke psychotherapist. I think he was a stroke psychotherapist because he created logo therapy. This book must have come out in the 70s, I think. He spent quite a long time, I don't know how long actually, in concentration camps. And it was in concentration camps that he really reflected on these existential issues and the purpose of life and the meaning for life. It's a very good book to read, and I am absolutely have no hesitation to think most people come to therapy so they can understand themselves. And it's the therapist's job to help them understand what is un-understandable to them. Yes, yeah. That's a really good way of putting it. I believe. Yeah, because a lot of the things we do, but we don't understand. So we help them understand the un-understandable. Yeah, yeah. I know it's not a Scrabble world because it's longer than seven. Un-understandable. So, many of the existential issues that come up, futility of life, mortality, feeling hopeless, helpless, it's real existential issues that are brought to therapy. Often, as you go down the layers, those issues come to the forefront.  Because they have to go through the layers to get to what's really underneath it all. And really what's underneath it all is the meaning of life, the meaning of what's the purpose in life. Many of these existential issues. In another life, I would have loved to train as an existential psychotherapist because, you know, Yalam, who's one of my mentors and hearers, he's probably the most, well, one of the most well-known existentialist psychotherapists of all time. And he wrote all these books. I think the first book was executionist.  We could go on and on. But underneath it all, I think, is about purpose and meaning of life. So why would you work with a client that doesn't feel like there is any purpose? Well, once I step back, I don't think many clients come back, come into therapy, in my experience, saying what I've just said. Some do about purpose and life, but a lot of people have a lot of other things which are happening to themselves in life, which then lead to some of these things I'm talking about as we have further exploration.  There's no meaning to life. I mean, besides exploring the obvious, which is like, is this familiar to you through all your life? I mean, has this occurred? Because I always think developmentally. And if they say, and usually do by the way, say, yes, I've been feeling this for since I was a teenager or something, then you would do lots of inquiry. In TA, you probably call it script analysis, but in other languages, you might call it phenomenological inquiry, open questions, or tell me a little bit more about that. How does that fit into that? So you're talking about feeling a lack of purpose in your life. When did that start? Well, I've always felt it since I was about 12, 14, and then you just take them back and start gradually helping them, you know, unfold, if you like, and exploring. Oh, and, you know, does that come with perhaps a lack of someone being curious, curious with you or not accounting for you? You know, just going down the layers. So you're helping them reflect, inquire, look at where all this has come, because babies aren't bored, you know, with a lack. They don't start, how can I explain this, don't get their purpose in life usually from the dynamic with their significant caretakers to start off with. Usually it's to do, Jackie, it's usually to do with the ruptures and the early attachment system with the early caretakers, actually, when you work it all the way down. Yeah, because I was, you know, one of the things that a lot of people fall into when, because when you were talking then about, you know, not having any, you know, feeling helpless and hopeless and not having any meaning and things like that. Sometimes clients get drawn into that, I need to do more stuff. Yeah, and that's usually to escape, to escape from the desolate feelings themselves of the world. Yeah, and it's scary when it feels nothing. That's right, you're absolutely right. Now, nothingness isn't a feeling. If they say something like what you've just said, I feel, you know, I wake up in the morning, there's a sense of nothingness, I would probably say, you know, that sounds pretty bleak.   TAs very got contracts at his head, so you need to follow the contract. But many people will and do want to go further and in therapy with me, I would always encourage that if I had a contract of course, to look at what's the feelings with nothingness. What do you actually, what are you thinking and feeling when you wake up in the morning and you just don't want to get out of bed, you've got no motivation, you feel life's futile. What's that all about? Have you any idea? And I'd explore it like that so that we can get to find out, you know, what's so, what is it that is beneath it all and help them understand what often is so understandable. Usually, usually we go back to trauma. Right. What I've just said is usually there's a rupture in the attachment system, or we have a traumatic process going on earlier in their lives, where they've moved into what you've just said. They moved into defending by either by doing things, by going to cognitive processes to become XX next. So they cut themselves off trauma feelings or whatever's down there. But as they go on in life, often in their 40s and 50s, then they start to perhaps there's more or triggers in life or whatever it is. They may start then feeling a void between the two parts of themselves or three parts of themselves, or something in the trigger that takes them back. And that's when they come to therapy. It's a big subject, isn't it? You know, the title of this, the search for meaning in therapy. And, you know, when we're talking about the meaning of life, it's big. It's very big and it's also existential core issues at the centre of our being. Yeah. So that's, you can't get anything really bigger. And so that's what I'm saying. There has to be a contract go to those places. Yeah. Because, and they think of depression. So, you know, just say, if you put depression to Google, it's probably the number top mental health term that people use. Yeah. And many, many people come with depression. Depression at the sort of, you know, in the present at a certain level, you can have people look at different coping mechanisms. You could go to another level though. You could say, is this familiar for you? How far is the depression go back and go back to when it started? And it can go even younger. Yeah. When they disconnected from themselves, for example. And that could take you right into a whole vacuum of processes. Yeah. So, yeah, it is a really important word. Yeah. It is. Like I said, it does depend on the clients and how far back they want to go. But sometimes we teach are on the edge of it without the client wanting to go any further. Well, that's why I say contracts are so important. Yeah. And this isn't about going to places that, you know, people don't want to go. No. A contractual therapy where there's a bilateral agreement between the service and the client to help the person understand different parts of themselves or help them understand where the etiology of this trauma came from or wherever. Yeah, yeah. Contract between two people. Yeah. Which is really important. So I think you're really hitting on an important area where therapists can, I believe sometimes take people into areas that perhaps didn't want to go because there's not been a contract. Yeah. Yeah, because it's. Well, I was going to say that it's not up to the client to stop us going there. Well, usually they're not in a, they can often be in a place where they much younger. Yeah. They haven't got the resources around them. Yeah. And so they usually might adapt to the therapist. I think it's up to the therapist to make sure there's a bilateral contract. Yeah. Yeah. Adult to adult, not from parent to child. 100%. Because the client, you know, it's not the job to do it. To keep safe in the therapy room that that's our job to contract in and everything else. Yeah. I think this type of therapy when it has to be contractual and may and anything I would say if we talk about mortality issues or a really strong existential issues that go through through the core of our being. Welcome talking about long term psychotherapy. This isn't short term psychotherapy because we're heading towards such. Such be in your phase big issues. Yeah. Doesn't something we can't do this is succession six years maybe. If you're lucky, I would imagine it. Portality is a big issue.  You see the thing is from the moment we're born, we're dying. Yes. Yeah. And. I think it's important to be aware of that. We're dying. Yes. Yeah. And I think there's always a death anxiety. Yellenwood always called me that there's always a low grade death anxiety that we're deflecting from by doing things. So we move away from a sense of being mainly because we don't want to feel or we don't want to get in touch with the feelings that go with the generalized death anxiety. I think there's always a lot of feelings of work day by day moving towards leaving this planet. Now that is really frightening for so many people. They won't go anywhere near that. Yes. The problem is, the problem is, though, is in that process they may disconnect so much from their self that they end up disconnected. So they then travel through life pretty well in one dimension. Yeah. So, you know, and a lot of people, I think at the 50s, 60s, 70s actually start, you know, as they're moving near the front of the queue, if you want to put it that way in terms of stepping off this planet, they start to get in touch with mortality issues. They allow themselves, if you like, to go to places which they didn't allow themselves to go because they're feeling so it was so difficult. So I think mortality issues can come up at any age, but they often are triggered by our own age. Yeah. Yeah. I certainly look different at things now than what I did when I was a lot younger. Yeah. Yeah. I like the face big, but the very deep intense reflective. But in the end of the day, you write what you said earlier on to adapt, survive and live our lives. We deflect from having to feel all those things that go with what we're talking about here. But if we disconnect into a bigger way or intense way, we can lose sense of our central core and that is pretty unhealthy. Yeah. Yeah. And I'd like to think that the juicy stuff is when we live life all in, when we're protecting ourselves from and not engaging and not living a full life, we're missing out on so much of it. But I think a lot of us tend to do that. Oh, no doubt. And then of course we have to bring another concept into this whole podcast and that's spirituality. Yes. Now, if we lose in touch, if we disconnect so much that we lose in touch with our core being and our sense of spirit, then we are pretty is it is almost like a spiritual wilderness. Yeah. That's scary when you said that then spiritual wilderness, I felt a reaction to that. It's like, oh, that doesn't sound like a happy place. I did a politics degree. I was a politics lecture from 29 to 38, even though I started psychotherapy training and working at 35. And this is where I don't this podcast be a political, too much political. But if I look at the, in my opinion, so podcast listeners can just have completely different views out here. But if I look at the political leadership of where we are right at this moment, I think there's a mole spiritual vacuum in the United Kingdom. That is why I think often we're heading towards what I might like to say a spiritual wilderness. Or, yeah, let's stop there, but I think the modern, the political where we are politically in the United Kingdom at the moment. I think many great many existential issues are raised. If anybody's listening to this and would like to comment, you can comment to Bob's statement that he's just said on YouTube, and I'm sure he would love to have a discussion about it. Yeah, I was always taught that, you know, psychotherapy is where art and science meets, but it's hard to keep the politics out of psychotherapy. Yeah. Well, we do believe that. I do believe that. I don't. I like to think that I haven't lost the political side of me in the. I mean, psychotherapy certainly when I turn to become a psychotherapist and the career of psychotherapy became at the forefront, but but actually now more and more, you know, and turn back to politics a little bit more. I know, again, this podcast isn't about this, but many of the existential issues may come from political decisions, actually, or be triggered. Yes, yeah. Yeah, and to be fair, I think we're in unprecedented times now with a lot of things. So, yeah. We are in unprecedented times. We are, yes. Yeah. Here with many, many big issues in the world. Yeah. So this is big. And, and you know, I'm sure that if I was working clinically now, many of these existential issues are probably and would be getting triggered by many of the events that are happening. Yeah. In the UK and abroad. But when we're talking about existential events and, you know, deep and meaningful stuff. There aren't any answers, Bob, are there? No, but you know, Jackie, the more disconnected we become from different parts of the south, the more we're likely to live more of a vacuous life. Yeah. It's an exploit. Yeah, but yeah, I get it. It's just it's an exploration. A lot of the times I think clients come particularly when they are looking for purpose or meaning and feeling helpless and hopeless is that they want answers. They do, but let me give you an answer then to something. What is the most, you know, okay, all these things are happening. What often people can come in and say, I feel really powerless. I feel really depressed. I watch all the things that are happening. I have a real sense of helplessness. And they listen to television and they watch all the news. They this, this, this and this.  That in itself, they would start to feel more empowered because they would be feeling they were doing something and moving away from a helpless position. How often they don't do that because of their histories and the disconnected parts of the south. Now, if you can work with these disconnected parts of their south, where they can get their power and energy and passion back again. They'll probably get, they'll probably move away from being a bystander and a passive, you know, that level of passivity that goes with it to perhaps daring to take their place in the modern world. But first of all, they have to be connected with themselves and they have to start moving away from this powerless position as they often feel into it. And this is the world of therapy and this is why I've been proud to be a therapist for 37 years.  For me, I would probably let them know that it's a safe place and give them safety and security and reliability and trust and all those sorts of things because, you know, when we're looking at that, what did you call it? Spiritual wilderness. I think my younger self freaked out when you said that phrase. It's like, geez. But it's about containing that within the therapy room so that there can be an exploration to go as deep as they want to do, or not. Or not. That's the bit. So there's some changes in this. Yes, yeah, definitely. Some containment. Yes, yeah. All the things you've just said there, I really agree with. I like a contained space, you know, to me. But like you said, hopefully there's been, you know, open contracts or contracts that have been done around this so that we know what we're doing. But I agree, clients taking action and feeling empowered and getting a fire in the belly sometimes is good. I'm not saying we all need to go on a march or anything, but. Well, maybe that would be a symbol of what we're talking about here. But you know, we deal with people who are often so traumatised that it leads to lack of motivation, disconnection, and feeling so worthless that there's no movement. So as a psychotherapist, as you start to help people empower themselves and make transformational actions in life, you know, I've always felt very proud to be part of their journeys into that level of empowerment and transformation. And if I've had a part to play in that whole road, I can only thank them and be glad I'll be part of it. Yeah. And it is, it is wonderful to think that that can happen in a therapy room. That's where we'll start.  It's like another universe sometimes. Yes. The rules that exist in the therapy room don't exist anywhere else that I can think of. So you said all the right things, I believe in safety, security, containment, understanding that we're dealing with the younger self, all those. They have to have a secure base, you know, and if we think of not far away now, how many people have lost their secure base? How many people have been displaced? How many people lie in their traumatised wastelands? You know, and what's happening to our world at the moment is I know at a much bigger level, but actually, you know, a lot of these very, very, at a macro level, we see them in the therapeutic room. Yeah. Yeah, there's an awful lot played out in the therapy room. It's an amazing place to be. I do feel privileged to be able to walk into that room every so often with people. Yeah, I mean, we're privileged, aren't we, to go on those journeys with these people? Yeah.  And I say, well, I'm not actually finished my career yet. However, when I've got past that statement, the answer is yes. Yeah. It's been very satisfying. But you know, unless I did my own therapy and I've done a lot of work on myself, I wasn't able to get to a place where I could be the therapist I needed to be to be on these journeys with people in a fruitful way. Yeah. That's the other side of it all. Yeah. Certainly not to go to the places I'm talking about, these existential issues we're talking about here. That takes a lot of work on yourself, I think. Yeah. I wouldn't say that I've been down to these existential places with any clients, if at all. But it's mind blowing. You would have worked on certain layers though, Josh. Definitely layers. Yeah. They get played out at different layers and we, and I think, but it was Eric Burnley originated of TA that really wanted contracts to be at the central centre of this new psychotherapy model that he's created. And I really like contracts bilateral contracts with the specific specified outcome between two people. Yeah. And contractual, I believe, the contract, contractualness is really important, I think, when working. So that we don't, we have a container, we have a structure, we, you know, we don't go to taking people to places they don't want to go. Yeah. So those in these areas of existentialism, we can go many, many deeper places. And then, of course, people often spend all their lives trying to defend against feeling the feelings of the trauma, the disconnection, or whatever we're talking about here, are certainly faced in this void, which perhaps they haven't got the sources to cope with. And then, of course, we're into a different pool game altogether. So contracts, I think are very important, safety, purement, containment, all the things you're talking about. Yeah, definitely, which we all should have in place. And if anybody's listening and they haven't, then, yeah. Make sure you do have it. Yes, it should be done. It's paramount. Right, Bob, I think we'll leave it there. I've really enjoyed this one. It's been a bit deep. And apart from that, yeah, spiritual wilderness phrase that my child didn't really like, I think he's been okay. Except for that. Except for that, it's been okay. I need a bit of therapy. Okay, well, thanks a lot for that, Jackie, and take care. I'll see you on the next one. Bye.