The issue of reparations has finally penetrated national discourse in part thanks to the presidential election Some Democratic Party primary contenders are saying that they support reparations But the conversation it's not very nuanced and mainstream media There's kind of a mention of it and then we move away But we don't really know what reparations entails because a lot of people are just learning about it for the first time And here with me now to talk about reparations is Michael Graham Otherwise known as MG from Actify Press and we tried really hard to get this video out prior to the Eidos conference Unfortunately, the last version that we recorded had a little bit of audio issues So we are redoing it now because we really want you all to hear about this. So Michael, thank you so much for coming back on the program Thanks. Thanks for giving me another shot there, Mike. Sorry about the sound on the last one, you know things happen I have messed up so many Interviews before with tech issues and whatnot. It's just you know, it's part of the process But you know what matters is that we're still able to do this and get this out And I hope you know kind of intrigue people to not just listen to this and then and the conversation there But really dive a little bit deeper do some more research and if you look in the description box We have a plethora of resources for you if you want to learn more about reparations learn more about the Exploitation of black Americans on the history. There's so many resources I have some articles from Michael Graham that he wrote But hopefully this will be a conversation that kind of sparked your interest So what I want to really do Michael is I think the most important thing is for us to define what reparations means materially speaking because Everyone kind of seems to impose their own view of reparations for purposes of political expediency You know, there's some candidates who they say they support it and maybe they do but it's meager Maybe they don't actually support it if you read a little bit closer between the lines So in your view, what is reparations? What does that mean? In terms of cash payment, does that mean investments in the community? Can you break it down for us in a material sense? Okay, well, let me go back a little bit. I one thing I want to make clear is that reparations has been part of Human interaction since the beginning of time if you harm me we just use there's some sort of recompense some sort of Making things right between those two parties, right? So this that's all reparations is we were harmed and the country never made recompense of in any serious manner and they gained Demunch really gained trillions of dollars and power and wealth from what from our labor from our intellectual toil and We have gained the least from all those all those efforts So what rep races is just like it was for Jewish people in the country that were in concentration camps or the Japanese In concentration camps and all these other groups. It's just making making right What was done wrong? It was done wrong to to a group of people in this case So it could be it can come in several forms, right? There's of course this cash. There is land. There is Apology, there's so many things that can be done to make things, right? But in this case one the biggest sticking point for a lot of Americans is the cash Reparations and I don't understand. Well, I understand race is a big part of that why the cash is is is an issue for a lot of people because Money's power and a lot of people don't want to see us with power But that's basically what rep races are making making good on on what on what was what was done wrong and trying to try To make up these and right now the biggest issue is the wealth gap not the income gap Which is different the wealth gap is the biggest issue because that's where families or an individual's stability comes from and right now And I wrote it in my last article on Nativism we're facing we're truly facing genocide in this country. So we have to Be honest about that and approach that from that standpoint and when you talk about Genocide something that we prior Discussed was if you look at the UN definition of what constitutes genocide your argument is that Black Americans beat three out of the five at a minimum. Can you explain that a little bit? Okay, I read directly from the convention on the prevention of punishment of the crime of genocide This is article two from the from the UN Commission So here here are the the five things killing members of the group Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group deliberately inflicting the on the group conditions of Life calculated to bring about the physical destruction in whole or in part Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group forcibly transferring children of the group to to another group now B a of course killing members of the group we we see that every day we see it with Yes black-on-black crime does exist, but that goes back to C Which is deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about physical destruction Which is what happens when you push a bunch of people together in a small space concentrate upon and and take all the Resources out of that space you concentrate poverty people will get violent happens all over the world happens in tower blocks of London It happens in the favelas of Rio it happens in the on the streets of of Hong Kong Wherever you have a concentrated group of people and and concentrated poverty You're going to have violence the more concentrated the poverty and the more concentrate and the larger the Inequality is the stronger the the violence is going to be that it's of course because it's contained You people harm people who were in their group forcibly for transferring children of the group to another group now That's that's one that people probably don't even notice but our foster care program children are pushed in the foster care because Find finances is the biggest reason why people give up their kids Finances is the biggest reason why people don't have enough money to take care of their children Right, so we're going back to deliberately inflicting the group on the group conditions The light of life calculated to bring about the physical destruction of older part It's a vicious cycle and we're facing that right now And if we don't as American descendants of slavery, we don't have any money. Therefore. We don't have any power Are we ever a vote? But the powers that be spent a lot of time and money to Misguide our vote in the directions that they want in order to help whatever they want as opposed to helping us Yeah So that's that's that's my that's my that's a view of genocide based on international law This is not what Michael Graham says. This is that what the US community says this is not what anybody This is what the law says What I think you you kind of touch on in your articles that I think is really important is Well, we live in a capitalist system in a capitalist system wealth directly translates into power by 2050 what's going to happen if we do not change income inequality and the disparities in wealth between whites and blacks Yeah, well, 2053 we we're facing The will be black Americans will be at zero wealth right now. We average $1,700 for a family if you take out the Durable goods so like cars and cars and Clothing and furniture and stuff like that. We're down to $1,700 in in the United States And of course there's places that are a lot worse like in Boston. We're down to $8 of wealth in In LA, I believe it's 200 200 or $300 in wealth Which in LA is like having nothing, you know So in its places this issues like that and it's not and it's not based on our color It's based on our the fact that we are descendants of slaves because they are asking people people who are born and raised First second generation from the African continent who also live in in or around these these communities But they have much more wealth because they brought wealth in or the and or they've been allowed to access wealth more than us Based on our history based on people trying to hold us down based on our history And I wanted you to kind of touch on the different types of arguments for Reparations because I think that really there's a multitude of ways that you can approach this There's the moral argument that this is a wrong that has never been written You know Ronald Reagan is actually the president surprisingly enough that signed reparations into law for victims of Japanese internment during World War Two so this is something that we've we've never Righted a wrong for so there's that moral argument There's also the legal argument and really acknowledging that this dates back to slavery, but it doesn't stop after slavery We're talking about Jim Crow. We're talking about segregation redlining So the legal argument is what I think can persuade people who don't buy into the moral argument and I feel like the moral argument in and of itself is Persuasive, but if you want to get like the wonks and the centrists on board Then I think that the legal argument is incredibly important and I feel like it's foolproof now in terms of this being a debt owed How do you make that case? How do you say legally speaking? This is sound and this is something that is long overdue well as you said there's a there is a nearly unbroken chain of Horrible policy and practice from the United States from 1696 But in this case we'll start from 1776 because there was no America prior to 1776. So There was slavery Then then there was a civil war and there is a tiny sliver of time where we had reconstruction and then white terrorism Erased that the right white terrorism and the assassination of Martin Martin King the assassination of of Abraham Lincoln erased the all those gains and pulled the rug out from other Southern blacks and whites who were rebuilding the south after after the civil war and then Falling right back into that puts us right into the Jim Crow era Which is a which is a hundred and a hundred plus years I forget what the number is a hundred plus years and that drives us into the 60s and during that time period We there there were there are over 4,000 lynchings Which is the which is how which is part of the violence and terrorism that they use to keep Jim Crow in place There were over 4,000 lynchings that have never ever ever been been prosecuted 4,000 black people were killed in violent violent terrorist actions from from the white community and none of that is ever been prosecuted All right, so we have that where we couldn't we couldn't own property or if we did have property It could be taken away from us. We had sharecropping during that time If those who those who managed to get their 40 acres in a mule that was taken back Communities that built that built up built their own communities and white folks came and tore that down and took it away It was just it was just horrible absolutely horrible So now we hit Jim at the end of Jim Crow quote-unquote the end of Jim Crow which puts us at the silver with the end of the civil rights movement Puts us into 65 or 67 in that time period. We had civil rights act the voting rights act. We also have Linda B Johnson signing using a a Executive action to institute affirmative action, which is great For and it was affirmative action was specifically specifically for the descendants of slaves All right, so within a year they found a way to dilute it They added women to it not to say the women aren't downtrodden, but white women This was a this was a funnel to take the resources out of these programs and funnel them right back into the white community through white women, okay, so So we're talking about since other than that those that sliver time and reconstruction and from the time that Linda B Johnson puts Put affirmative action into in place. So we're talking about Reconstruction and I'd like a 10-month window where we had affirmative action to ourselves, right? Beyond that that is the absolute closest. We've we've had to full citizenship since we've been here since we've been on this continent And when you see it like that When you see when you see that framing of where we are in the United States, it's case closed There's really no way to back away from that I think that part of the issue is that people aren't really conceptualizing this in the correct way like one of the biggest things that I see against Reparations is that well, there's no slaves alive today And of course you just explained how it's not just about slavery But the way that I see it is when a debt is owed That doesn't go away when you know the individuals who are owed something die, right? So for example, like I have a lot of student loan debt if I die that's not going to go away It's just going to be transferred to my husband debts carry on after somebody passes away I mean my dad he has an uncle that he never met I don't think maybe once or twice who had land in Hawaii It was like a meager five acres or something like that But he found out about it after he died and then when that property was sold him and his Siblings split that so, you know a debt it doesn't just go away with time It's something that carries on and people need to acknowledge that and if they see it that way I think that legally speaking it makes more sense if they don't you know Understand the moral argument, which I feel like the moral argument. It's it's basically a no-brainer It's just a matter of people kind of use Legal rationale to kind of explain away the need for reparations when that's not really a way to dismiss it Easily because you're still wrong, but I wanted to talk about because the thing about reparations is that as I kind of alluded to We don't really get these complex conversations about it And it's really nice to see Presidential candidates like you know Mary Ann Williamson talking about it, although I will say it's disappointing that You know a white woman is the face of reparations when we have black leaders like event carnell and Antonio Moore Who founded this movement and they don't really get credit But really what they've kind of helped to Demonstrate to people is that this is important to view it in terms of a black agenda, right? Like we can't just lump in black people and people of color because there are different needs for different communities So what they try to do is bring to the forefront a black agenda saying these are the things specifically that we need That will help our community that will save our community But it is important that the way that you know the the organization and the Momentum grassroots behind this has kind of just sprung up seemingly out of nowhere That's actually a mischaracterization because it's been there. There's been a need for this. There's been an urgency for it It's just that finally it is coming to the forefront But I want to ask you because since Mary Ann Williamson is kind of the face of reparations And I do view her as an ally she spoke at the Edo's conference But in my view I feel as if her approach to reparations while it's correct legally and You know in the way that she's framing the argument I feel like it's a bit too meager But I kind of want to talk through like is she is she hitting all the marks? Is she doing a good job? What is your take on Mary Ann Williamson? Yeah, well, I'm sorry Mike. Let me go back for a second. You were talking about the debt Well, I'll come back to Mary Williamson. Sure. We're talking about you were talking about the debt and how debt is that debt transfers Just just just the way wealth transfers just like poverty is just trying is passed on down passed out through generations Or the lack of wealth is passed out through generations, right? So something we have to keep in mind, right? Recently there was a study 60 the largest transfer of personal wealth is about to happen over the next 25 years in the United States from boomers to millennials. We're talking 68 trillion dollars Are going to be transferred and 45 million 45 million households there's gonna be 68 trillion dollars transferred to From from millennials. I mean from boomers to millennials and the vast majority of those families are White families because that's where all the wealth is right. So that we have to keep that in mind a lot of people are saying well I was saying that that well well black folks they had your chance whatever, you know They had welfare and whatever whatever XYZ We did not have a chance to pass on that kind of wealth like white folks to get ready pass pass on to their kids Even though we did the work we always have done the work and here we are We're looking at 68 trillion dollars over the next 25 years going from boomers to millennials that we're looking at moving on Mary Mary Williamson. She is a she's an outstanding ally.  Just like was three four years ago Medicare for all wasn't politically viable now Everybody's scrambling to try to find a medicare for all plan or medicare medicare for all light plan Yeah, that's a great plan. What's and and what's politically viable doesn't matter It's where and I think Harvard did the study, you know Stanford did the study that What people in the street think about what have what policy goes through it means nothing Like 60% of policy goes through and the people in the street don't even want it. Yeah, that's a Princeton study actually Yeah, yeah, yeah, so the argument that well most Americans don't want that. That's not an argument at all It's about what people with money won't which doesn't which doesn't really help us But the argument of the people don't want it. It's not gonna happen. That's that doesn't fly either, right? Because this is a dead, okay So her problem for what's again back to Mary Williamson the biggest issue is she wants to concentrate on the 40 acres The promise of a 40 acres in the mule, which is a very concentrated promise of four million people Didn't get their 40 against in the mule four million former slaves in the United States didn't get their 40 acres in the mule And that was what they could have as we've talked about before that's what they could have could have they could have Received and if they had the opportunity to they could they would have been able to protect it and grow that wealth Just like white family did okay, and then of course pass that on to to further generations now here We are nearly 40 million African-americans Native American descendants of slavery And we're dirt poor for the most part. Yeah, some some black folks have some money Yeah, but the vast majority of us are struggling paycheck to paycheck if they're lucky enough to be getting a paycheck So I think Mary Williamson is on the right track as far as that portion of the reparations It may this concern or reparations case is concerned, but there is a vast majority of things like peonage conical easing and Even even now we have the even in the modern modern times. We have the drug war which Which clearly was targeting black communities we had and after the the drugs were flooded into the communities we have Mass incarceration which is which piggybacked off the drug war It seems that every step of the way our bodies are used for white folks to make money and we never get And folks want that to continue for some odd reason because white supremacy is just so ingrained in every single component of society and institutions and it's it's so like it's really difficult to Undo a system that was built on that. So it's like I really you know I found the ados argument like I've always been a supporter of reparations just as you know a good ally But I never really took the time to fully understand what that means and what that entails And even if I was already kind of open minded towards the idea when you really see it put in very point of blank like statistical terms It really is eye-opening like I I read the ados website ados 101.com and I kind of had this like yeah, I said Go ahead. The website is is um, I wrote I also wrote that in my recent article on nativism. It was it was a um It was so sobering. You know, I I thought I was knowledgeable But when you look at those numbers and the way they pull out the data That's not and it's not and it's not intended to As some folks were saying is that not attended to fire people up and make them feel bad about our situation It was about telling the truth, right? And that's what the left is supposed to be about right left is supposed to be about Okay, let's here's the facts. Let's say an argument. Let's let's try to get it fixed All right, and that's what that was used to be about back in the day. Anyway, we uh, we uh, that's only when it comes to The American descendants of slavery is the left not like that and that's that's a big issue for me. That's why I've shifted most of my energy to fighting for 80 us and because you know, it's my family that's where my my sons my sons no matter what my What my parents have done no matter what what I have done when my wife family is done My sons have a 75 chance of falling into poverty and one of them right now is headed that way my eldest, right? No matter what we did no matter what no matter how many resources I have They as individuals are are more likely to fall in the poverty simply because they descend from slaves Nothing else. It's not race. It's not Um, this city it's not, you know, the color of their their their car When they have one right, it's none of that garbage, right? It is that it is that they descend from slaves because this country has a hard on for harming us And it's really that simple Yeah, and the situation shouldn't be bleak And I think that really what what was very persuasive to me is the sense of urgency that I felt when I read it You know about black wealth disappearing by 2053 about how the situation is getting exponentially worse Um, so I think that it does a really good job at you know One educating people on two spreading awareness and I feel like if you're not necessarily On board yet, but you're open-minded Then doing the research in and of itself will do wonders because It really is empowering to learn about this and really realize the full history and get the context Of what has happened to descendants of slaves in this country and it's really sad So we kind of got our feet wet a little bit, but this is such a gigantic issue. It's complex So aside from recommending that people go through and read the resources that we have in the description box What I want to ask you is as white allies as non white allies. What can we do? To promote this issue rather than just saying I support it. I mean, what else could how do we go further and be good allies? I think one of the biggest things is um Be prepared to do some work, right? Um There's boots on the ground. Do your homework. Obviously like we just said. Yeah, definitely In be fearless in your circles. If you don't take anything else from what I say Uh in this this particular, um Interview or anything I've written if you the biggest thing for me is be fearless in your circles Go back and tell these folks that are that are uh on the right left or center Whoever they are tell them that reparations is the right thing to do and here are the reasons why Bam bam bam bam bam. These are fellow americans are going through x y and z and our policy and practice caused it And at no point in time in this in our history have we had enough power to cause this to ourselves So this is this was something that was inflicted upon uh the uh the american descendants of slavery and as the the uh the the entity that inflicted that on these on On the american descendants of slaves We have the duty and responsibility to fix it because they we do not there are no policies in place for us to fix it ourselves um the uh dr. Sandy derrity from duke and antonia more and several other um Economists did a study and all these things that we were told would get us out of poverty You know buying home saving not spending on rims and sneakers by as they say that bullshit and um All those things that we we've heard that would get get us out of poverty None of them work. None of them work. Um, I I forget the name of the study. I think you might Put it in the um in the show notes. Yeah. Yeah, it'll definitely be there Yeah, and and none of those things work because they do not show in the data All right, they don't it doesn't show up in the data families that that stay together um That you know nuclear families that stay together and everybody gets at least a high school education and they're working Wealth levels are still massively below white people who do the same thing So all these things that were told that would fix this Um, we're and they were put in like nixon put in place. Uh, but black capitalism that was his big thing Um, we're gonna do give them, you know, give them black capitalism and so so they think they're getting somewhere and and we didn't get anywhere um, you know and and all these other fixes that they're supposed to be um gyms of of Of wisdom in order to build wealth they're all bullshit at the end of the day Another thing that I kind of wanted to touch on real quick before we um close up here is um One thing that I think makes this issue especially more difficult to sell to people Is that it's not like other policies like medicare for all like if i'm promoting that I tell somebody how that impacts them from a really Concrete individual standpoint, but with this issue when it comes to reparations I think that people incorrectly view this as a zero-sum game where descendants of slavery They get something but I don't get something as someone who's white when in actuality that just shows me that we haven't been Doing a good enough job at pitching this because in actuality. This is not a zero-sum game This is a win for everyone and this is truly um trickle up economics because if we increase Purchasing power of black americans then that benefits the aggregate economy So I feel as if you know giving up and saying well, this doesn't have public support I don't think that that is persuasive enough because we always start from somewhere medicare for all was not as popular as it is The death penalty is still Not uh, there's most americans don't support a repeal of it. It's getting closer, right? But that doesn't necessarily mean yeah Yeah, that doesn't mean that we give up that doesn't mean that we just say well You know what we we don't have the public support that we need so we stop That just means that we have our work cut out for us and that means that we need to go further in educating people And really like what I would say is Educating yourself is the first step because you can't persuasively argue for reparations if you don't know the statistics If you don't know how grim the situation is for american descendants of slavery and that in and of itself Is a huge first step that uh, you can take I think I mean, I don't know if you wanted to add to that Yeah, I agree that the first step is is education, but but the the moral argument you can do without the education, right? That's true. That's right. I don't want you to I don't want anybody to wait until I you know, they're a scholar on Right, right. They're applied to black people in the united states. The moral argument is clear Yeah, it could be as concise as you want it to be and it could be all right. We had Slavery we had Jim crow. We had for a split second. We had civil rights movement that got us closer to To to parody with with our our white brethren in the country, but then we had the drug war we had mass incarceration, so we have never is never American descendants slavery have never seen full citizenship They've never had a full opportunity to gain wealth in this country point blank period There's really no way there's no other way to view this and the moral argument is We need to make that right and that includes cash payments because you can't make up a wealth gap without cash You just cannot yeah, and um Raising people's income that sounds good on paper, but you're raising everybody, you know The minimum wage argument you're raising but you're raising everybody's income that means okay If there's a gap and everybody's wages go up guess what that gap is goes unchanged Right slightly or changes slightly right so um and that's you know And that's one of my many frustrations with the left when it comes to this This discussion is like you were saying before that people tend to give up looks too hard Let's leave it alone. Right. I think that's bullshit for a lot for a lot of folks I totally know a lot of folks know better I think a lot of folks know better, but they're choosing not to you know, I don't mind I'm gonna call them some of them are racist I mean, it is what it is the left has has their share of races and like you said before White supremacy is ingrained deeply in the united states. Yeah, it's really it's good But it's deep in the united states and and and a lot of people think that Um, to it and it's true to a degree that money insulates them from us and our problems Mm-hmm Right and it does insulate them.  I mean, that's what Pushing us into separate communities was all about our problems are there is no Shared uplift right there was the the whole um The rising tide lift all boats argument, but no water's going to our In our spaces right all the water's going to other spaces How are we gonna lift all boats right because you know, we're living You know, we're living in a space where we're not getting anything In matter of fact, most of the resources are being pulled out through Through overpolicing, you know driving up that's driving up costs through incarcerating people Tickets all kinds of stuff and all this stuff is going on in the black communities that that are pulling resources even now pulling resources out of out of Black communities that's happening right now at this moment. We just had the The crash in 0809 suggest I'm getting old just In 0809 and nobody went to jail for targeting black and in this case black and latino People wanted to wanted to buy a house Nobody went to jail for targeting for targeting us right and that none of this goes punished and that's part of the problem is that Government has lost its taste for even a little bit for fighting for us Not even nobody fights for us not nobody in power fights for us If you look around there is nobody fighting for the specific needs of the american decimus of slavery community Not a single person in power not a single group in power is fighting is fighting for us None And we are the most important voting block voting block in democratic politics and on a national state level How does that happen? How does that happen? It's got it's I know how it happens. It's it's specifically it's specifically targeting us for the end Right, you you don't you don't want us to make your own decisions. You don't want us to have any wealth You don't want us to grow. You don't want us to have our own businesses What's left? what's left and and for people to Quote on quote left us to to look at this situation and ignore it or even worse um Attack us for wanting more for for for wanting a future for our children is absolutely vile absolutely vile and um I don't you know, I don't know how This country plans are going forward without fixing this problem And and it's the sad thing is it most people don't want to fix the problem Yeah, you know, we've um a lot of it is like we said said early is that people don't understand the problem But for a lot of folks that's not an excuse Especially for those of us on the left. It's not an excuse Well, and the reason why I've kind of like really started to Be more passionate about it and not just you know be a passive white ally because that's what I feel like I should do is because you know It's hypocritical to not support this issue if you think big in all other areas And I get that there's this sense that okay Well, we're gonna be accused of being too far left the minute like reparations even came up in 2020 There was already the fox news segments about how far left we're going and how how crazy Yeah, exactly about having fire departments Exactly exactly and like the whole the whole like I and I do understand like right trying to be sympathetic Um, I get it like we finally move the needle on medicare for all we move the needle on the greenew deal We have public support. So now it seems like okay. Well, what if we go too far and ask too much? Will we de-legitimize ourselves? But what people need to realize is that we are at a really crucial point in history Where we've got 11 years left to act when it comes to climate change Um, we are facing rising fascism in the united states of america White supremacy um violence against blacks and people of color. It is It's really terrifying to see so now is not the time to limit our thinking and limit, you know, what's possible Now is the time to think big and accept things radical changes That would actually uh help people in this country and it doesn't matter if we have these universal programs that are phenomenal But if you truly care about targeting that wealth gap that disparity between descendants of slaves and everyone else You have to address that specifically and I think that ados has done a fantastic job at saying that look It's great. All these, you know universal policies, uh targeting, you know People of color generally speaking. That's all fantastic But if we want to stop this issue and um stop what's been happening the exploitation of black americans Disproportionately, you know descendants of slaves. This is what we have to do So I think it's really persuasive and I really I I'm thankful that people like you are speaking up so vocally because you have to really Yell to get people's attention sometimes and I think that the ados movement has been very effective and I really commend them for it Yeah, there's there's been a lot of guerrilla journalism and guerrilla politics of coming from the From the ados community and and for people with no resources and no power. This is what people have to do You know, it's we don't have We don't have a bunch of folks that we can send uh journalists with with tv vans to go to everything We get you know, we're we we got cell phones and and our voices That's all we got and and that goes back to allies being courageous in their circles If you if you're in a space where people are poo poo and reparations, you've got to stand up and say something You know, uh, it can't be Well, maybe they have a maybe they have a point. It is kind of hard. No No, everything is hard until you freaking do it. Yeah, right Um, and that's the biggest issue for me people gonna have to be courageous and even if you Um, there were a lot of voices saying that The ados was a was a fascist plot to bring down bernie And all this other madness if you don't see that that was wrong if you don't see that by now with cornell west standing standing by The most one of the most courageous people in for for the rights of poor people in this country Is standing with ados if you can't see that I I don't know what to tell you. Well, a lot of folks are just using the gadgets We're using the gadgets as an excuse.   Yeah, absolutely. He was shredding obama for eight straight years And based on his policy and and you know, there are all kinds of people that are standing with this with the ados community and our and and the And I must say I just just released a podcast just me talking more or less of of about leadership about black leadership and praising antonio more and and You've been that carnell for their forthright and fearless leadership because too often And there's a clip in there of malchimax talking about the leadership during the civil rights movement about how it was It was the leadership was stood up because black folks were were A Tuesday of the past will say Of making their voices heard Folks were getting hurt Buildings were burning down and black folks were not playing So powers would be put some more Quiet voices out in front. All right But even those voices got radicalized after a while like marlo the king. He got radicalized after a while So, oh, wait, we got to talk about economics. Of course that was the end of Of the good doctor But in any event again that I had to say again You have to be courageous in your circles. Yeah, you don't have to you don't have to like event You don't have to like antonio. You don't have to like their tone None of that. You don't have to like me but if you are for justice And you're in this activism space And you're not behind reparations There is a problem not enough groups are helping us nobody's no no groups are on our side the just recently um Trump signed a a a bill for um Pacific Islander and Asian American inclusion in the in the economy Not a word was said nobody said anything about about specific policy to help people, you know what I mean Yeah, that's That's the thing those are the types of things that bother me So we can't do the same thing for for black in for the sentences flavor We can't do the same thing for us But when it comes to us, we are quote-unquote political poison unless you want our votes But that's gonna change now. No black agenda. No vote.  Well the overtune window just in the selection cycle I think has shifted dramatically on not I mean not just reparations, but a ton of issues And it this is the first time I really feel optimistic. Well, I shouldn't say I feel optimistic because overall I'm cynical I've got a cold heart But I mean I see like there's a little bit of a light like a glimmer of hope at the end of the tunnel So it's nice to see, you know a little bit of Maybe goodness to come, you know, it's just a matter of putting in the work And that's why I really appreciate people like you and event carnell and ten you're more raising this issue because You know without this type of in-your-face like hey pay attention finally tangibles 2020 like I wouldn't have really Felt the need to do research. I would have just felt like I I support it. That's probably enough I am comfortable right but really forcing myself to go out of my comfort zone and really research it On it's eye-opening You know, it's this coming to jesus moment that I want everyone to have and that's why I will say one more time Please do not leave this video until you check out those resources in the description Michael took the time to go through and carefully select a ton of different things that you will want to check out He's like the reed great great opportunity. Just reading. There you go. There you go. Check out the resources nerds. So I didn't want to say that So anyways, if you if you didn't have anything else to add Michael, we uh, we can leave that there No, I'm good. Michael. I wanted to thank you for being an ally. It's um, very very important that we have allies um, and it's great that the that the guys in independent media Especially on the video side because you guys get the most the most attention And tim black also he has sandy dirty on his show recently and giving 80 us a fair shot because that that smear campaign that happened early on was painful but um Glad we got it out of the way it was gonna happen eventually Glad we got it out of the way and people are and people like yourself were being courageous and and being true allies and fighting this fight And offering your platform for this. I truly truly truly appreciate it And please thank talk to your fellow your fellow youtubers slash podcasters and everybody else again be courageous in your circles Well, thank you. Thank you for saying that. Uh, I'm certainly trying but uh, it's really, you know, thanks to you for really, um, Taking the time to explain this so articulately and eloquently and just and just making it known What's at stake, right? It's it's easy to sit by and be complacent But for the people who speak out they kind of put themselves on the line And you're doing a public service. So thank you for that. Uh, it's been a pleasure, Michael


two three hi there and welcome to the free art show the show where I came home draw what you want and release it for free use with me I have my lovely wife hello and today we have a list of six different suggestions now how this works is we will roll the dice to pick which suggestion it it will be and then the winner will not only get his picture drawn he will or she will win this intro card which you can see time lapse of me drawing on the YouTube channel in a couple of days or now if you're watching on YouTube and if you're watching on YouTube then please do subscribe now because they already watched it oh yes subscribe anyhow that that's the point subscribe the drawing that I will draw to the day you can also buy from me for the need some of 65 euros including international shipping but I don't know what I will draw today so let's go over the list oh you didn't you didn't have the right down the names of the oh that was silly of me yeah I'm sorry okay we will but I have the names here I can find them yes we will just listen to you hum for a couple of minutes while you find the names it is by waiting music I'm just trying to be helpful I will go through the list now the first suggestions suggestion numero uno is a devil coming out of the ground ready to feast on your soul and the second suggestion is the first suggestion came from Sunbro Sunbro okay the second suggestion comes from Tristman Tristman and it it is a green pig wearing a witch's hat in a desert and if you you're guessing which pun he or she is aiming at then you're one better than me but it is a pun I've been explained then number three is simply a snake eating money from Pacho what a zero twenty three from Pacho zero twenty three and the fourth one is a kind of a special one Duncan Roberts from Duncan Roberts who got a gift from a friend of his ten years ago a drawing which he really liked and now this friend died this Christmas and he wants me to draw his interpretation no your answer my interpretation of his drawing and I have the drawing here so I can try to interpret it if the dice suggest it if the dice decides it then we have the second time on the list for the mead making dwarfs galar and fjallar from Norse mythology making mead on kvassir from Ireland again and number six is it says silly Odin but it is really Odin in a bathtub playing with small longships Viking longships yes from Ross Williams so shall we see what the dice wants us to draw today yes yes yes blow over it number four it is the memory from a friend that's the most challenging I in some so many ways now the first thing if you're watching this on YouTube then I will have the drawing flash on the screen hopefully enough flash but show on the screen and you will see that it is a death-like figure it's a very anti-christian drawing it's a death-like figure that's riding on some hellish Manticore beast with a lot of nails standing on the I I'm guessing it's the the corpse of Christ with a lot of nails and a sword through him but it wouldn't be the corpse of Christ since he's wearing a crucifix and that would be weird for Christ to do are there any images of Christ wearing crucifix because that's just that's just wrong let us hi Tony here from Chile love your videos thank you and Miki said seek for the hero fighting a dragon suggestions it's a bit late for suggestions and but I usually put out my question my my call for requests on Thursdays or Fridays so so next Thursday or Friday then please I would love me some sacred action I haven't drawn enough dragons I can never draw enough dragons so when I'm drawing this which is based on another person's drawing I want to have it very clearly that I'm not copying the drawing this is not a copy it is a homage it's a reinterpretation it's yeah something to that that extent therefore it's kind of neat to start with some more or less random inputs oh no the power went out this is exciting we don't even have a lot of power this power went out in all of the neighborhood yeah at the neighbors as well so okay we have light should you draw like this yeah that won't help here the problem is yeah I'm going over to Wi-Fi no no to so it looks like we're we'll just check if we are we online I'm writing the problem is I can't follow you on but we're not no we're not online you are we are online okay interesting okay but I can't I can't reply to any comments no because the computers offline and he's using my phone if you can you can hold the flashlight until I was going to I was just going to get my beer I should open my beer my darling blackout okay so this is an exciting in the dark you know my hobby is so dark yeah it's dark art I actually have just realized that dark art is afraid it's a term it's a movement so would say it's dark magic the dark arts that's similar but yeah look at how lovely when the ink we can't yeah we can't do the whole show like this so we'll just continue for a few minutes and hope it comes back otherwise we'll have to postpone yeah this is very exciting oh here we have the death figure we're you can see the comments here if there is I'm just going to go to the other side oh yeah I have this huge thingy I did not say that it's a Lego box extreme painting yes what's up with the flashlight she's laughing at us from Chile they have electricity we're paying we're drawing in a blackout now the electricity and all the neighborhood went out yeah like if five minutes are after we started so but we're trying to pull through yes we'll keep on going for a couple of more minutes and then postpone if it doesn't flip back on yeah then we will probably do it daytime this hasn't happened before here so so it's and it's not affecting the other side of the the fjord no the city no it's just up here yeah but it is affecting all the neighbors mm-hmm but isn't you know drawing better by flashlight see something new I can even zoom in and that isn't zooming that's just other some oh no it's true dark art yes yeah perfect you draw this way all the time as the one holding the flashlight I'm voting no that's just awful I'm sorry tonight's laughing at us you need some beer for the blackout we we could check the news to see if there's any news news about this but both our phones are used for cameras yes don't we have we have those like light tubes long light tubes yes should I get one yeah I can hold the flashlight while you get it so what I'm drawing now is based on a drawing that was sent to me and I don't usually do this but it was a very special request and what I'm trying to do is kind of have some of the original drawing remain have some of my take on it oh now it's cozy I'm not getting light back we just have yes I key attack I don't know how to do this no we have to share yeah you need the drawing oh yes but I have looked enough at it you can close the computer and and I won't need to look at the drawing anymore makes it more exciting no but you're recording the sound yeah this is the most action-filled free art show yeah okay is that okay so do not light yes it is excellent that's excellent it's much better than it usually is yeah more candles okay then get more candles okay then I'm going to just have to find them you know the kids go away take them on trips and stuff I thought you were going to say you know the kids they go wild for candles candles I don't know what happened with my English there yeah this is actually kind of good light to yes it's big the problem is the battery the batteries don't last but they whatever they should last the duration of this is it pretty now Mike did you like it sorry still looking awesome just the night sorry just I just have to look out yeah they have lights on top but none of them I hope they have some lights maybe they look at our in our window and think we have lights yes they do really confused hey at least the streets have lights do they not no not here up there the streets with the buses on all the cars so maybe the bone brings a curse yeah it's the curse of the bone but if you're watching on YouTube you don't know what we're talking about because he didn't get to see the bone should we show them the boat just so that we don't confuse them I think should we show them the bones seems like something best left I'll see if there are any more comments no it's just the candle love but the candles do deserve their love they do electric candles it's exactly just I know it's everything that's wrong with the world today yes but it means our kids haven't been burned to death just yet I know you do in a couple of years we can have them what real candles yeah why a couple of years is it seriously the kids yes is that why we don't have proper candles yes are we that kind of parents yes I feel awful I don't want to go around worrying about it all the time I'm going to set something on fire no you're not this would be also that smelly yeah I thought that was the reason that it might be the reason smell no it's because the oldest one always have him he likes knickknacks and he's so much less pyromaniac than I was at his age no I don't think he's going to burn anything up intentionally I didn't burn anything up intentionally I almost burned something down but I was really lucky the worst thing I almost burned down was a giant field of corn okay that would have been bad that would have been bad but luckily the wind turned and we got to put the fire out idiot kids yes in case you're just tuning in we're actually doing this in a blackout we just have a very good light on batteries I actually love it I should have bought more lucky that goes on USB power and we have extra batteries barely charged so yes and Kim has never been this pleased with his lighting lightning lighting yeah it works mm-hmm it's all battery what doesn't work is that I left a bit too little space for the Jesus figure oh I'll make it work I have to say trips to see the comments because the computer doesn't have internet this is weird yeah this is definitely the weirdest pre-art show we should stop talking about how weird it is and just get on with it and I can try to describe a few of the things I'm thinking one of them is that I have used too much space on this which is a problem that often happens when you start by random ink blots and also often happens anyhow but I think I know one way to make it work is to instead of having the hands of the Jesus figure above his head like normal corpse to have them laid down by his side and show the stigma because you think it's Jesus I do you think it's Jesus I don't know but it seemed very Jesusy it isn't just a priest with long hair and a beard and a crown of thorns I think oh okay hmm you might be correct but he's wearing his he's wearing himself he's wearing a cross yes that is very weird I want to do face in a completely different way than drawing I was sent and whatever you do don't take this episode to mean that you can send me drawings and say draw this as your request this was a sort of a special request and if your request is special then it has a higher chance of getting on the list if you just draw me your Harry Potter erotica then I will not draw that Harry Potter erotica is kind of creepy the kids man not anymore through still liking aspects of this but I'm not sure if I can pull it all together I never really liked Harry Potter fan fiction no but you did like fan fiction oh yes I do what was your favorite fan fiction universe Buffy Buffy yes yes Buffy and actually the 70s show yes you were in that 70s show no but the writers yes very good writers in the some of them yes some of them no I have not read have you read any fanfic I have read some fanfic star trek yes and I know that there is actually I very much like the idea of how I read Veronica Mars as well yes you were into Veronica Mars fanfic for a while yes yes we're into slash fake no no not really no I've read some dirty fanfics yes I I've heard that supernatural had great slash fake between the brothers yes that's just horrible but but I think that slash fake can be a very good outlet for the horrible for the horrible for the horrible and tender the tender and horrible I don't understand no I've read some pretty good ones yes I still read them time I what I think is you know I do these the free art show and all my art I do under open licenses for free use because I'm against how copyright works today and one of the interesting things is that panfic is actually illegal yes and they always write this this long text in the start I know what it's called disclaimers yes disclaimers but those disclaimers don't mean a thing because it's not I more than it is just a clever disguise lovely art what's about the X files no I've never read X files fanfic I should maybe no no I have to know the show properly so the thing that people don't understand about copyright is that it's not just about earning money with what you're using it's any sort of public display so technically yes technically if you invite enough people to your party you're not allowed to play music for them technically but there's a lot of things about the copyright laws that we just look away from because they are not I'm sorry we're in a blackout and we have been for the past I don't know 50 minutes yeah and I'm curious your cure is about what why oh your cure is about why we're in a blackout it's not World War Three because then they would be in a blackout across the fjord as well okay then and I have lights up the stock of the straight straight yeah but we should perhaps use our phone to call the electric company and ask them I am guessing many people have already done this yes and I am guessing as well that on our phones there is a message yes from the phone company telling us what's happening and when they expect to have the power back on I will hurry to get this finished oh I almost forgot the sword don't forget the sword I'm going to the toilet I'll need a light we're keeping it very loose but we're going to go in with some white ink as well as a white acrylic just to emphasize some parts blotting out the page just to create a darker focus then I will go in and lighten some parts especially in Jesus's face so we can see that it's Jesus but first I need to get a steady pattern of just darkness surrounding the art electric power shortage yes eldritch power for short it might be funny I don't know eldritch fire is it something about lovecraft yes yes your geeks okay I just admitted to reading lots of fan fiction I'm not going to diss you too hard about your geekiness I'm guessing also when we're talking about fan fiction lovecraft is probably the most pan-ficked writer because he allowed it so people has have been writing the cthulhu mitas for soon a hundred years have been continued on is it is it canon then yeah well there is no cannon and but there are there are several different cannons you have you have for instance the call of cthulhu role-playing game which has its canon and in its kind there's a lot of different writers not just lovecraft or you could have august durlitz canon he was the one who invented the term cthulhu mitas and he tried to make it into something more resembling Christianity with good versus evil and he claimed to have had lovecraft's blessing which he probably did but I'm not sure that lovecraft meant quite the same as he did when he said yeah you can write about it so so and then you have different a lot of different variations on on what what lovecraft's own canon might have been because not not all the stories are meant to be in the same universe could you find the white ink for me honey is this it if there is something in it yes yes it's this ink the white acrylic how about this one no that's too thick now we're going to you had a white century death skull hopefully without making it look too silly if I ever if I ever go to a club in Ireland and the patrons be not river dancing also cthulhu slash I dare not google it I have actually never read if they're not be river dancing I will be disappointed who would cthulhu do slash with with all those tentacles himself now what is slash slash yes slash is uh what is the pornographic fanfic I was okay I was under the I thought slash was uh same sex pornographic it then I'm uninformed because slash I think so slash tends to be angel and spike yes but there is a lot of queer content in fanfic yes all rated is something else or I don't know m rated what I don't know what it's called but slash is I think who know but I cannot google it so I don't know maybe one of our audience members knows come on come on google it you with power they already know they're geeky as well otherwise they they wouldn't be watching our show so now I'm just accentuating a few parts not selling us they don't know what is slash fanfiction at least the school have emergency lights that's good to know we're looking out at the neighborhood in darkness and seeing the moon is beautiful it's very bright mochten says I'm painting minis salamanders and fallen fallen dark angels go see if the stars are right I don't think they're right I can't see any stars so it's a blackout and not the coming of Cthulhu probably probably but if it is we'll be the first to see him in the film oh we will be the last to see him because we have light on inside and our neighbors are in complete darkness oh then he'll see us as well yes we will be the first to be eaten by cthulhu that's just green isn't it cthulhu feast okay um I think we're going to try to end it don't end it yes we can end the show not everything see this is a brilliant light it's just just a few more spatters I like it came out I'm hoping the friend of the one who died also likes it I hope so I've done my best and not even a blackout can stop me that's giving it my all yeah I think this is as good as it's going to get today and uh we'll sign it white ink mark Garcia is liking it see sure your thumbs up and writing up here clapping fist bump on your fingers after SJ the original artist of the drawing that I'm paying homage to to celebrate his memory for a friend of his okay so if you have enjoyed watching our blackout spectacular then please go follow us on youtube and subscribe okay what I will work out a bit but we're back follow us on youtube subscribe there follow me as den unge herdholm on facebook den unge herdholm on twitter den unge herdholm on instagram and den unge herdholm on minds.com Mike wants you to sign it in blood no blood today Morten Sander is giving you starry eyes and Duncan Robert says this is incredible thank you very very pleased that you liked it Duncan sorry for your loss yes sorry for your loss um and what more should I say before we end and yes if you share the video then that's great and we'll be very happy yeah we need people to share it to get more people to watch it to get more people to get requests and comment and everything fun if you like it even more then you can purchase the original art until next saturday for 65 euro including international shipping and if you like it even more then I have a sort of dormant patreon campaign at patreon.com slash kim holm which will be resurrected in the near future so I guess we've said everything yes yes we have so we'll bid you a good evening and hopefully the lights come back now that we end the show bye good bye


Hello. Hi, everybody. Good morning, everybody. Hey, Sean. Sorry for the confusion, Tracy. I thought I was in the wrong room. So I just guess. All right. Welcome everybody to the December 1st hyper ledger technical oversight committee call. As you are all aware, you've been on this call before two things that we must abide by the first is the antitrust policy notice that is currently displayed on the screen. And the second is our code of conduct. Which is linked in the agenda. So as far as announcements go today, we have the standard announcements of the Dev Weekly developer newsletter that goes out each Friday. If you have something that you want to include in that newsletter, please leave a comment on the wiki page that is linked in the agenda. Any other announcements that anybody has or would like to make? Yeah, Angelo. So probably this and this, this thing will not be of interest for money, but I just wanted to take the chance because I, I didn't run again for, for the, the TOC. I just want to take the chance. And you never know to, to say thank you to everybody. I really enjoyed all the discussion. I learned a lot also from the interactions that we had in the past, in the past years. So a really big thank to, to everybody for this opportunity and for this great experience. Thanks a lot. Thanks Angelo. And yes, thanks for being on the TOC for the last year. It's been, it's been great to have a voice. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. I think that is the. Curious and interested about what's happening in the technical space. So thank you for that. Any other other announcements that anybody would like to make? All right. So speaking of the upcoming TSE and the election. The election did close yesterday. I saw that we had 77 votes that came in. We didn't vote in the technical oversight committee. So it's. Somewhat disappointing that we moved to. Maintainers only people we thought would be interested in. Voting for the upcoming technical oversight committee folks. To not see a larger number there. But maybe we'll have to do some. Some conversations with some of the people who didn't vote to see why they didn't vote in what we could do differently in the future. We do not have the results yet because the next step is that the governing board. As you recall has to elect. Five. People. Five additional people to the list of technical oversight committee members. And so that will be. Starting here shortly. So I think that's a good point. I think that the staff is working on getting the information gathered from what. What the results were. And also putting together some information on. The individuals. That. That we have as far as diversity and things like that. So. Probably mid December is when we'll see the results coming back in. For the next year's technical oversight committee. In the next year's technical oversight committee will see the results coming back in. As soon as it's available. After that, as you are probably all aware. The next steps would be to elect the TOC chair and vice chair. Or no. Yes. Hi everybody. Thank you, Tracy. No, I just wanted to comment on the election process. I think, you know, given the more numbers of vote, if we had said, okay, you have two weeks to vote, it doesn't feel like we would have lost a lot. I don't know that for a fact, obviously, but especially given the, the additional stage of having to go to governing board. I think, you know, two week period to vote to cast the votes probably was good enough. But we might want to think about that in the future. Yeah. Yeah. No, thanks. I will tell you that probably a third of the people voted this week. A third of the people who actually voted. I think it went from 50 to 77. And this week. So. I don't know if that's because we pushed people. Yeah. So, you know, we pushed people. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I completely hear you though. Yes. Your point is taken as well. So. Thank you for that. All right. Any other comments on just the technical oversight committee election or any other other announcements that people have? Hey, Tracy. So I know like previously we refrain from doing it, but since this time the election was focused. Only to maintainers can be this time. Do some. I mean, the analytics is visible to us. Who has voted was not. Can we try to get feedback from them? The maintainers were not participating. Yeah. I think that's a really good idea. I think it's just reaching out and seeing if we can get a summary of why they didn't vote. You know, I don't know what those choices might look like if we were to do a choice sort of thing, or if it's just a open ended question, tell us why you didn't vote. But I do think it's worthwhile to see and. Understand, right? What, what, what the reasoning is for that. All right. Any other. Comments or announcements? Not seeing any. We did. We haven't met for about a month. And so we have a number of quarterly reports that did come in. In the past month. And. As I was going through them this morning, I didn't see any open or out. Standing questions about any of those reports. It looks like all the questions that were asked were answered or. Any comments that were made were. Updated in the, the actual reports, but did anybody have any questions or anything that we should talk to. The, the communities about related to their quarterly reports. We'll take that as a resounding no. The upcoming reports. We did get the cellar report that came in. Already this week. So. That one's available. The Ursa report. It's probably worthwhile to have a conversation with the Ursa team. I know they just gave us their Q through Q3 report. Not too long ago. And so it may be. That they're not thinking about the Q4 report yet. So we'll just have to maybe reach out to them and see, and see what the status is there. And then for next week, the reports that we're looking to get. And I think these are the remainder of the reports for the year or the basic caliber and firefly reports. All right. Any, any questions on any of the reports before we move on to the discussion items. So for discussion today, I wanted to talk about the status updates for the task forces that we've kicked off. For this particular year. I want to see. And what we're waiting on. How do we close these out? Is there anything that can be done to, to move us beyond where we're at to move these forward. You know, I, I. There was another task force that we had, which I ended up closing out. Because. What we decided was that it was really the, the staff decision as far as, you know, what gets priority and how do we present this. However, I do recall from that task force. That one of the things that was, we were waiting on was to see some mockups for some of the. New web pages. And so. I don't see Mr. Boswell on the call today. To give us an update on that. But I think that's one of the things that we are waiting for. Just to, to see how we. Lake the different projects together on the website. Oh, you are on the call, David. How did I miss you? Oh, you were at the top. Co-host. Yeah. David. Do you have any updates on that? Yeah. Quick update on that. Unfortunately, this gotten tied up with some web dev. Other web dev issues on the site. The plan was to launch it on the current site. Earlier this year in time for global forum, but then the web dev team decided that it would probably be best to wait. Long story short, the, there's going to be a redesign of the site early next year where the site moves to a different flat hosting platform. And so the web dev team didn't. Ultimately decided it didn't make sense to code it once for WordPress and then have to recode it just a few months later for a different platform. So their recommendation was to hold off. And. Do that when we launched the new site and sorry for not providing updates sooner. We've just been trying to sort out the exact timing and details on our end and all of that is not yet. Fully final on our end, but the web dev team did decide. It did make the most sense not to go ahead and do it on WordPress. So. We'll give you updates soon when we know more of timing, but. We'll be a little bit later than we had hoped in terms of getting it posted. All right. Thanks, David for that. Update. So yeah, let's go through the other task forces then and see where they're at and what can we do to get them closed out or move them forward. So the first one is the project gaps task force. Dana, I know. We had done a lot of different things. About, you know, what kind of projects we have, what kind of projects we don't have, what labs exist that might fill in some of the gaps. Where are we at specifically with this task force and what do we need to do. To, to move this forward. So the, the goals was to produce a list of labs that would go in and possible holes. And on the page, the recommendations. Delivered on that. In August, we kept it open over Hyperledger global form. In case some of the chatter at the global form. Prompted us to add more. Entries or gaps or whatever to the, to the list and none of those surface. So, you know, based on the objective set out when we form the task force, it's delivered. It's its product. Which was that recommendations page. Okay. So we can then move this forward. It's, it's product. Which was that recommendations page. Okay. So we can then move this to the prior task force list. As far as what it has. Where we're at with that. Correct. So we can take that action to do that. Okay. Great. Thanks, Dan. Jim, the project health dashboard. Yeah, thanks, Tracy. So this one, I think we originally set this up to deliver some automated content into each of the project reports. We achieved the, the first step of identifying what needs to going there to reflect accurately with data. The, the, the project health. But we haven't achieved this. The initial goal of doing the automation. It's mainly due to resource constraints coding. Coding wise and setting up infrastructure. But we did manage to give the output to the Linux foundation inside team as input for their future enhancements. So I think we have the option of closing this off with the reduce the scope and just consider the, the, the output being just the report itself. And then we can always choose to act on that. In the future when we do have resources available. Okay. So one of the things that I was thinking about with this and another conversation that I had was around whether or not we wanted to have some sort of. You know, let's call it a spreadsheet for sake of ease. That basically provides a list of things that we would expect from projects. Things like maintainers file. These are the easy things, right? Things like maintainers files, contributor files. Things that talk about how do you become a maintainer? You know, all of the basically good practices or best practices for, for being a successful kind of open source project. And then just the, you know, kind of a check mark, yes or no next to it. I know right now we're kind of doing that in the project reports. But I'm wondering if there's a different way for us to do that and kind of have it all in one location. And basically something that we could maintain as we kind of go through and see these things getting completed or finished. It's not quite the same. I think is what this dashboard was and is intended to be within insights, but I'm wondering if it does help us in some way just to be able to understand kind of these, these best practices, if you will. Yeah, yeah, I think the, the report that we ended up with can be easily turning to express sheet format. And I'd be happy to help with that. So we can have that sort of as a self either as a self evaluation or as a set of format for projects to self report on their projects to be able to, to be able to, to be able to have related to the documentation of how their projects are run. And I think this, these are the key things that we can do. And I think we can do that as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would be great. Yeah. And I know. I think this is coming out of some of the conversations you and I had as well about some of the things that we'd like projects to be able to. To be able to have. Um, and I think this, these are the two things that came together in my head to create kind of this spreadsheet of check marks of yes, no, um, sorts of things, um, maybe even pointers to where those things are, uh, if you will, so that people can easily find, uh, where things are documented because I don't feel like we're very consistent across our projects and where we document some of these things. Um, some of them have them, uh, in maintainers files, some of them have them in contributors files, right? So like there's, there's just different places where things are captured. And I just want to make sure that we have a, um, you know, uh, one place kind of to go look and see how our projects are doing and, uh, maybe. You know, a directory for people who are interested in getting involved in certain projects. Totally agree, Tracy. Thanks for bringing this up. Yeah. All right. Uh, anything else then on project health dashboards that we should. That anybody has any commentary on. Um, hi, it's Dave. Uh, I agree with your points about consolidating that information. And there's also a few of the questions that are in each of the projects reports that. I've been there for like most of the year and people would just copy paste, I think. So it'd be good if those things got moved to the common spreadsheet or the common page will have where we do it. And then the project reports, maybe just link to that. And you can say, do you have any updates. On the comment page, that type of thing. Yeah, I think that's a really good idea. Dave, I saw similar sorts of, I was thinking similar sorts of things when I was looking at some of the newest reports that came in, it's like, that looks very similar to what I saw last, last time they reported, right? Um, so yeah, I'm agreeing with the copy paste and how that might just, uh, you know, some of the stuff is just not needed there in the project reports anymore. All right, anything else then. On this particular topic. All right. So then the last task force that we have is the security task force. So Arun, I know you've been hosting some meetings. Wouldn't just see if we could get an update from you on what the status is and what kind of steps we are taking or need to still take to get this one closed out. Sure, Tracy. Hey, everyone. So in terms of update, we still stand at the same place as what was updated in the previous day's TOC call, which is where we have certain action items that were supposed to be written down. For instance, in our initial proposal, we had the easy targets achieved. But after that, taking the feedback from the TOC, we went back and then verify the other proposals. And out of those proposals, like the after multiple discussions, we realized that some of the open SSF recommendations are to be proposed. Or here in hyperlature for immediate implementation. I apologize because I haven't been able to follow up since the global forum event. But yes, the task force itself has completed for now. The tasks that were to be done. However, the one of the proposal that we had as part of the task force itself is security is not one time activity, which we should be reviewed. And then once we put up these 10 or 15 items that it's done, but rather it should be continuously evaluated as well. So that is an open item, which I still see that we end up discussing. For instance, in the previous call as well, I'm not brought up a tool that we should be leveraging in our build process. This Nike tool reports, right? So that's where we stand right now. And currently the task force meetings have been canceled, the Tuesday meetings. I guess there was a conflict and then the rescheduling of that is not done because I was occupied in the past month. I, again, apologize for that. That's the current status. Okay. So there is, sorry, on this night tool that I'm not brought up. I was not also aware of that. The next foundation has already provided that in the, in the dashboards that are available for all the projects. The discussion that we had in the previous task force meeting was to go through that and then recommend how the projects teams can start using that. We already saw some of the project teams have been taking measures to mitigate some of those risks reported by the tool. I'm not sure if those reports were shared through this tool or through some other needs, but the tool has captured those status as well. Okay. Yes. So, you know, I, I, I claim a responsibility or take responsibility for having started this. I still feel that we have a lot to do in that space. And I mean, I, you know, I don't think you have to apologize. We all get busy at times and that's okay. I mean, you know, I thank you for trying to be this anyway. But, you know, it's, I, we started this. That was based on my report that the open SSF had produced a guide for on, you know, for open source project and how to handle vulnerability disclosures. And then, you know, I'm very much involved in open SSF these days. And I can tell you that the list of tools and recommendations keep increasing all the time. And I think in general, you know, especially given the space we're in with blockchain, which is pretty security sensitive. I mean, those recommendations are true for any open source project. But, you know, as I was saying, just, just if anybody should care, it should be us because in a blockchain space, we care about security and maybe more than anybody else. And so I think we, there is a lot to learn from the recommendations that, you know, Arun was referring to some of the tools that are being, you know, pointed to there are some that are actually developed by open SSF itself that help, you know, track the packages, for instance, that you're using in your, in your software, and it will alert you automatically if there's a vulnerability that has been disclosed in one of the, or found in one of the packages you depend on.  And so, again, the software is also starting to provide some of those tools, but then then it's returned on by default. And sometimes it's just a matter of going change the, the, you know, your GitHub settings to get to use those new features. And, and the other part is, you know, there's a lot of new features and so again, the software we're developing so that people can use them knowing that they're actually using the genuine version and stuff like this.  And so I think this, you know, this task force is still very much needed. You know, I see this as a way to try to, you know, go through all these different options that are being brought up and recommendations and try to figure out what it means for us. I predict her. And so that we can then turn around, you know, and tell our community are different projects. Okay. These are guidelines that we really want you to follow. All right. Make sense. I agree with our know, I think we have, you know, we have a lot of stuff to do. This, you know, I expect this will be a fairly long-term effort. But in the near future, you know, we'd like to get, you know, more precise bug bounty programs rolled out. And we'd also like to, you know, formalize a security audit process as well as, you know, trying to, I don't know if standardized is the right word, but trying to help formalize CV. I guess even if we can't mandate them CV best practices. So I totally just want to briefly agree with what Arnaud said. Okay. So it sounds to me, if I'm hearing correctly that we've still got some work to do and it's going to be around documenting guidelines and best practices for security. So potentially implementing some programs within the Hyperledger Foundation as a whole. Is there, with the first part, how much of what's being done in open SSF is applicable to that? Or are we creating separate from open SSF? I'm trying to figure out what the, what the relationship is between Hyperledger Foundation and open SSF and in this kind of task force. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we're, we're trying to get people to adopt the best open SSF practices. Right. Right now we don't have any formal policies say on CVE disclosure, right? And when we talked about that last time earlier this year, you know, people were hesitant to follow the open SSF best practices. So I agree. I mean, it's not about creating our own policies per say, our own guidance. It's really, you know, deciding which ones we want to adopt and what tools we want to leverage. So that we can recommend that to the projects in Hyperledger. Okay. Makes sense. So then I guess we keep the, the security task force open for now. As we determine what those open SSF best practices are that we want to adopt and what the tools are that we want to, to recommend to our different projects. All right. Any other comments on the security task force? Any other things that we should be considering or thinking about here? I'll take that as a no. So if we go back to the agenda, we do have some sections at the bottom of the agenda about new project proposals and then kind of our backlog of issues. So Sean, if you wouldn't mind going back to the agenda. So we've got the HLF operator hip that's been proposed. I will let you know that there are conversations that are ongoing between the submitter of this proposal and the bevel community. The results of those are yet to be determined. But I, I want to leave this open until some sort of decision is made as to whether or not it makes sense to bring this into the bevel operators or what direction this is going to take. So for now, this is going to, to remain open. Hopefully we can continue to report back on those discussions and how they're proceeding for additional, for additional meetings that we might have. And then for the backlog items, we do have this one open issue, which is what spawned the security task force, which is to update the security process for hyper ledger. I, I'm, I'm not sure what to do here since we kind of have two threads. One, which is this issue and one, which is the task force. Do we leave the issue open until the task force is completed? Or do we close this with the, we created the task force to handle it? I'm looking for some sort of direction or thoughts on kind of this backlog item. Happy to keep it open, but also don't want to leave it there. If it's just creating noise. Any thoughts that anybody has here. Hey, Tracy. Yeah. I mean, I think part of the task force mandate is to suggest updates to this. So I think it's fine if we roll it into the task force. Okay. Any objections to that? Anybody who thinks that should be, should remain open separately. Right. Not enough objection itself, but I don't know how to put it better, but the project team who proposed here, they did reach out on a chart and they were asking for comments as well. They were asking me to review and then make some comments and get involved. So I know like there are personally, but when I looked into some of the available labs, there was, I guess there is one more operator project or maybe two more operator. And within hyper ledger already incubated projects, we do have one project that does make use of operator concept. And then there is bevel. I mean, we are already in a phase where there are, so my question, like what I am trying to get towards is would fabric team be willing to participate in these discussions? Because most of these are kind of dying to fabric as well. At least that's where the confusions or the questions are arising. As far as I know, at least the except for bevel, which provides integrations for multiple other platforms, most of the other operators that we see are all on the fabric. So can we have fabric team involved and help us understand what the direction that team is taking from the fabric side versus which of these two is more ready for that adoption in future changes. And I know unifying may not be straightforward because of the complexity that I already mentioned bevel supports multiple other platforms and most of the others are like operators only for fabric. But at least the guidance from fabric team would be helpful. Hi, this is Davia. I can help and or get somebody from the fabric team to help with this. All right. Thanks, Dave. So make sure to include you in some of the conversations that are ongoing that we have. And Arun, you had jumped us back in the conversation. I was, we were actually talking about closing out the security price updating security process in the backlog items. So I was asking if anybody had any objections to closing that one. So happy to take us back there, but Arun point taken on the Agilef operator and I will make sure that we're including other folks in those conversations. And this is a topic that I'm personally interested in as well and invested in as well. So I want to get involved. So related to the going back to the backlog item then any any objections to us closing this out as being included in the task force, the security task force. Well, so it's really a matter of, you know, kind of accounting how you want to deal with it. I mean, as long as you have the task force, I guess, it's okay to close it. So we're not going to lose sight of it. But to me, it's this is kind of like the issue. And the task force is the way we are going to come up with the answer that will allow us to close this. That's the way I thought about it, but I have no problem closing it. Yeah. I see where you're at, right? Like we shouldn't actually close the issue until it's been resolved. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. All right. So the scale is now balanced in my mind. I don't have a preference for either way. We've heard one for closing one for leaving it open. Any other people have any thoughts on this? Otherwise I think I will lean towards leaving it open because that the scale is slightly towards that one. I would also tip the scale to leaving it open. I think it's good to have a reminder that this is what we need to come back to from the task force. All right. Somebody put their thumbs up. I don't know who that was. So Peter needed. Okay. So we'll leave it open then for now. So that's the, we went through the entire agenda. Any other topics that we should be discussing as we. Finish today's meeting. Yes. So this topic came fresh in because I, I got to attend one of the event and blockchain related event and Bangalore today. And. I would like to see something like that within hyper ledger ecosystem as well. And what fascinates me over there is in terms of. The developer relationships in making. Onboarding developer ecosystem, making their experience much smoother. I know this has been brought up in the past. The approach from hyper ledger would be a little different, but if. If there are opportunities for us to open up in multiple ways, I think we should start looking for partnerships or engagements in that aspect. And this could be from multiple angles. For instance, the majority of developer ecosystem comes from, from let's say the, a certain age group, which would much closer, which would be much closer to universities, right? So they would be looking for a quick contributions or a kind of project involvement that they would personally want to be involved in. And I'm not again talking about the mentorship program, because those who are highly motivated and the enthusiasm who would go and explore on their own and willing to contribute at their own phase. So these particular community group is specially large. And once they, let's say, gain that experience, they will carry that forward to for those people from their reach. And this has been a success story for, for at least other groups. And I mean, if there are open opportunities for us to propose some things and like engage in any way, happy to do that. Yeah, that's all. So I'm not quite sure that I'm understanding what you're suggesting. So I'll probably put it in a much other way, right? So engaging university students, especially when they are towards their towards end of their courses or people who are looking out for real world experience for people who are looking out for open source contributions. And they are highly motivated. They are the like the developers group who are willing to learn on their own. Now the investment from our side would be in terms of making sure we have right materials available for them, right trainings available. And this may also require, for instance, Hyperledger Foundation to be engaged with certain universities and prepare course materials if needed or probably engage in creating workshops. Right. So this is what I was trying to go towards. Engaging university students is really beneficial for a community perspective and also in terms of adoption. Okay. I'm going to let a heart comment. I think there's already some things that are ongoing, but I'll see if heart mentions those or not. Oh, absolutely. So yeah, so we definitely have university student engagement as a goal.  We have been, we have been working on this though.  So, you know, just, just reach out. If you think that there's something we can do. We, you know, in the same vein, we are going to try to. I guess revamp isn't the right word, but we're going to try to, you know, update the mentorship program as well. To help handle more university students and more university interns as well.  Email or something and then just mailing to us, that would be fantastic. Because we're always looking for feedback and opportunities on this kind of thing. One thing that I know was happening is some work with Morgan State University for some of the kind of conversations about what it is that we're doing in hyper ledger and that was the one example that I was going to bring up. I don't know if you had a comment on that. Sorry Tracy, our contact person at Morgan State left. So that's currently on hold, but that is definitely something we are trying to continue. Okay, great. Thanks heart. Come lush. So I didn't see in her like what I don't need men saying and saying, I think I can relate because. I can also keep different universities in India. Is a speaker is an event partner, but everybody, everybody understand the public blockchain ecosystem like polygon and other stuff, but when come to come to the topic of the hyper ledger ecosystem. So. Even like it's still the educational awareness is missing. So maybe for that front, like what Arun is also saying, like how we can create and talk about the hyper ledger ecosystem in some kind of developer ecosystem going to be events. So because like all this public blockchain communities out there and talking about and building some type of ecosystem, but in hyper perspective. Is a hyper ledger ecosystem goes to the different event, but in the different aspect and talking about the hyper ledger hyper ecosystem and hyper ledger business perspective, but involving the developer ecosystem, but I think could be focused in not just the university, but in general, you know, to the developer ecosystem. Right. Bobby. Hi, everybody. Yeah, I just wanted to supply that in the learning materials working group in the new year is working with David to change up an onboarding site or onboarding mechanism so that when people do inquire, there are the there is the information that they're requesting really easy for them to find. And then possibly we were talking in the group about running classes based on just what hyper ledger does during our meetings like monthly so that people who are interested will get the information. Sounds great Bobby. Any other comments on this topic. All right. Any other topics then that we should talk about before we close out today's meeting. Awesome. I will briefly say that, you know, just in this same vein of soliciting feedback. We are looking together. Sorry, we're looking to put together our events strategy for next year. So if you all think that, you know, there's an event that might not be on our radar that we should attend or have a presence at or try to speak out or do something. So please, please reach out and let us know. Thank you. Thank you, Tracy. Any other topics. All right, sounds like there's none. So with that, we will close out today's meeting. Thank you all for your participation. And we will see you again soon. Thanks everybody. See you guys.