We have covered up to John chapter 5 verse 9 and now we will resume from John chapter 5 verse 10 onwards. If we could have one person read out verses 10 and 11 please. The Jew safer said to him who was cured it is the Sabbath that is not lawful for you to carry your bed. He answered them. He who made me was sent to me. Take up your bed and walk. And verse 12, they asked me who is the man who said to you take up your bed and walk. We see a very strange kind of response being made by these Jewish people. First of all they see him carrying his bedding and walking and according to the rules which had been introduced by the Pharisees you are not supposed to... yeah sorry. Yeah well I was saying that we are now resuming from John chapter 5 verses 10 to 11. Okay so that's basically where we are right now. So here you have the Jewish people imposing a law which was not given in the law of Moses. Okay all that Moses said was that the Israelites should observe the Sabbath respectfully and not do work which basically means you know you're not supposed to go to your fields or you know do any kind of merchandising and earn money and all of that. Moses never said you know don't carry an object which weighs so much. Don't walk one kilometer. He never said any of that. He never tried to restrict their movements as you know people doing their normal everyday functions. He never said that. All that God had told the Israelites was that they must focus on him not on money making. They must focus on him not on the other responsibilities of life. So he was just saying that the Sabbath is a day when a person would rest from work because God will take care of whatever they need and they should rest in him, focus on him, refresh themselves and get ready for another six days of work. That's all that God had asked for but the Pharisees who came along they wanted to add all kinds of clauses and sub clauses and so they came up with rules about exactly how many kilometers you should walk. They came up with rules of if you're carrying an object let us say from one tent to another tent then what should be the weight of that object and then I don't know is this one commentary which says that they were even told that they should not use the bathroom on the Sabbath and it just sounds very strange to me. So they came up with a whole bunch of rules on what should be done and what should not be done. They were adding burdens to the people which God had never wanted added. So they were adding additional unnecessary burdens which are not required. So over here this man who was carrying his bed roll, his sleeping mat or whatever, he is not breaking any law of Moses but these people say it is the Sabbath day and so it's not lawful for you to carry it and the man in a very simple manner he replies, he who made me well said to me take up your bed and walk. Now what would be the natural response to that? You became well, why what was your sickness? What happened? Who is the person who healed you? You know that would be the basic question which anyone would ask but then you have the Jews responding in a very different way. You see who is this man who told you to take the bed and walk? You see look at the way how their mind is functioning. They are not at all interested that here is a savior who is able to go around saving people and so they they're not excited that to find out who this person is who can make someone well, who can you know deliver a person from their sickness, they're not interested in those details at all. They want to know who is this culprit who has committed this crime of breaking the rule which we introduced? Who is this culprit so that we can punish him? That is their attitude. So it shows that they have no concern for the sick. They're not happy for this man who has been on a bed for 38 years and now he's walking again. They're not happy about that at all. They couldn't care less about his welfare. They are only interested in their rules which they have introduced you know their little bit of power which they have established and they want to hold on to that. So this is a very wrong attitude and Jesus in fact was always very much against this particular kind of attitude. We don't see that mentioned over here in our book of John and this particular passage but you know when we look at the other gospels we are reminded of the occasions where Jesus expresses his anger you know when they are more interested in their Sabbath rules, rules which they have made up rather than in the wellness of a person. Just to look at one example because I want to just highlight one particular phrase Mark chapter 3 versus 1 to 5 if you were to turn in your bibles to Mark chapter 3 versus 1 to 5 or there you have an event being recorded regarding a man who had a withered hand and he comes to the synagogue you know to worship God and it is the Sabbath day and everyone is carefully observing Jesus to see whether he will heal the man or not because according to them healing someone and delivering them was also work. Okay so it says in verse 5 so if we could you know have one person read out Mark chapter 3 verse 5 the words used over here it talks about how he looked at them with anger and it also says that he was grieved by the hardness of their hearts. So these were not people who cared about others they did not care for anyone's welfare all that mattered to them was you know retaining their power and influence over people and making them you know do whatever they wanted done. So that was their attitude and this attitude always angered God and not just angered him it also pained him it grieved him the word used over there is grieved in the Greek I think it's the word celeb or something where you feel pain regarding that so here was God who cared about the welfare of people and there you had the Jewish leaders who were supposed to be leaders you know shepherds of the people and they had no concern whatsoever for their flock and then we see another interesting contrast over here that would be verse 14 so if someone could just read out chapter 5 verse 14 please. Okay so Jesus has it says here later Jesus found him at the temple which means Jesus was looking for him Jesus was specifically looking for him and he found him at the temple and he approaches him and he speaks to him so Jesus didn't just simply you know do an act of healing and walk away from his life unconcerned about his future but Jesus cared enough to come you know after him pursue him and give him this important piece of advice again we see you know Jesus the physician Jesus the doctor the doctor just doesn't simply you know you know prescribe some medication and just walk away if he is a good doctor he also is very interested in the patient's follow-up in the long term you know this should not trouble them again in the long term what would be best for them so a true doctor one who is genuinely concerned you know for his patients he doesn't just simply do the basic required and walk away he watches out for the long-term welfare of his people and so here Jesus comes back to him and says you know it's good that now you're back on your feet but what about your future what about your eternity and so he says to him stop sinning or something worse may happen to you God you know Jesus gives him this word of warning because Jesus cares about this man's long-term welfare so just in the previous verse you had this bunch of people who were not even happy that the man got healed after 38 years they were not even curious about that complete hardening of the heart on the other hand here you have Jesus looking for him you know in all the crowds that he was coming across trying to find out where is this man because he has something important to convey to him and so in verse 14 Jesus finds him at the temple and immediately walks up to him and gives him this word of warning so that his future can be safe and secure so we see this contrast between Jesus' heart and the heart of the Jewish leaders and then verse 16 to 17 if we could have someone read out please I'll read yes 16 and 17 okay so they began to persecute Jesus because he had done this healing on a Sabbath Jesus answered them my father is always working and I too must work yes it's same is it okay yeah yeah yeah 17 and 17 thank you so much so sorry yeah so over here Jesus says you are saying that I must not work on the Sabbath but my father works on the Sabbath okay so because my father is always at work to this very day I too will continue to work just like he is working so here this an interesting point being made Jesus is saying my father is always at work in indirectly implying even on the Sabbath my father is at work so if he is at work working on behalf of people then I too will continue to work on behalf of people so just one small clarification because it says in Genesis that God rested from his work on the Sabbath so how can Jesus be saying that the father is always at work including on the Sabbath day so this is just a small technicality nothing you know major because over there in the Genesis account when it says that God rested from his work it obviously does not mean that God was so tired after the six days of creation and he needed to take a rest because God does not get tired so over there when it says he rested from his work it means that now he seized you know from CEASED he seized from his work he stopped from his work that word is used in that sense because what he had done in the six days was so perfect so complete that nothing more needs to be added there is nothing more to be added because whatever has been done by God he has created on those six days and he saw that it was good and it's perfect and it's complete and there's nothing more to be done and so he rests he ceases he stops from his work it's so in that sense and so he says to the Israelites because of what I have done the completion with which I have given you this planet and all that there is in this planet one day you know don't think about your work on that one day just rest in me trust me and know that I can take care of you I who created in six days and finished everything that needed to be done for the human race I can take care of you so you don't need to slog on the seventh day and you know go about running to your fields and running to the market to get your financial transactions done know on that one day remember who your actual provider is the who the actual creator is who has given you all of this and just rest in him that day focus on him rebuild your faith so that they know the next day onwards you can again face the challenges of life so in that sense they were supposed to celebrate the rest it was supposed to be a rest of trusting him to supposed to be a rest of just believing in him and enjoying him so all the Sabbath obviously God would have constantly been continuing to look look down upon the Israelites who are down below on the earth and he would have continued looking after their welfare so Jesus so God never rested rested from work in the sense he never stopped watching out for them on Sabbath day so even on Sabbath day they were protected on Sabbath day they were continued to be provided for they continue to be taken care of and so Jesus says the father who has always been working on behalf of his people he is my example and so in the same way that he has been working I too will continue working even on the Sabbath we have an Old Testament scripture Psalm 121 verses three to four where it talks about God who never sleeps or slumbers is always watching over his people so God does not rest he does not sleep he continues to watch over his people even on the Sabbath so we will now come into John chapter 5 19 onwards where it's where we have more doctrine you know being mentioned so we could maybe begin by reading out verses 19 and 20 please then Jesus answered and said to them most actually I say to you a son can do nothing of himself but what he sees a father do for whatever he does the son also does in right manner for the father loves his son and shows him all things that he himself does and he will show him great works that this that you know now in these two verses we we see how Jesus talks about how he has chosen to place himself under the father okay so he says I don't do anything on my own I only do whatever I see the father doing so he places himself under the will of the father but at the same time we see that this is not some kind of you know boss and you know inferior you know that it's not that kind of a relationship rather it says in verse 20 the father loves the son and shows him all he does so it's a relationship of love that is there between the father and the son it's not that of a boss and an inferior okay and then in verses 21 to 23 he talks about the other aspect of who he is if he could have someone read out 21 22 23 for as the father raises the dead and gives life to them even so the son gives life to whom he will but the father judges no one but has committed all judgment to the son that all should honor the son just as they honor the father he who does not honor the son does not honor the father who sent him so he talked about how he has chosen to place himself under the father's will and so he never does anything just like that on his own he does only what is in line with what the father wants but also at the same time he is in every way equal with the father because in the same way the father you know raises the dead and gives them life the son also has the capacity to do the very same thing so they both are equal and even though they are equal the son chooses to place himself under the father's will and so over here Jesus says therefore because of this you must honor me you know and if you are not honoring me then it would mean that you are not honoring the one who sent me and also there's another point that Jesus makes um yeah if we can look at verses 24 to 27 if if we could have one person read out please most actually I say to you he who hears my word and believes in him will send me has everlasting life and shall not come into judgment but has passed from death into life most actually I say to you the hour is coming and now is when the dead will hear the voice of the son of God and those here okay so here we see very clearly that Jesus is not saying that I am the father he says that he is the son of God okay so later on like I said false doctrines started to come into the church and there were people who were saying that both the father and son are just one single person and in the ancient times this was a cult which was known as Sebelianism and today you have people who kind of still believe this this kind sort of doctrine and they are supposed to be the oneness Pentecostals who believe that the father and the son are just one single entity but that is not what we see over here here Jesus very clearly says that the father and the son of God are two separate people because he says in verse 26 as the father has life in himself so he has granted the son also to have life in himself so both of them are not persons or entities to whom someone gave life they always had life they always were so no one had to give them life and bring them into existence they always had life in themselves already so they are two separate you know persons in in that sense so again there are you know there was this ancient cult called Arianism and those people said that the father is God but Jesus is not fully God he's just partially God because the father made him okay so in that sense and even you know today in our modern day we have people who follow those kinds of doctrines one of them being the Jehovah witnesses who believe that it's only Jehovah Yahweh who is God and that Jesus is not fully God so these things are actually put to rest through this particular passage because in this passage Jesus talks about how he has chosen to place himself under the father even though in power he's equal with the father and he goes on to say in the same way the father always had life in himself the son also has always had life in himself and he has the authority to judge because he's the son of man who is talked about in Daniel chapter 7 so one day he's the one who will be judging and so they better submit to his word and they better you know accept him because he's the one who is going to be judging them so these are all points which are brought out in this particular passage and then if we can move on to 28 29 and 30 if we could have one person read out these three verses please don't be so surprised indeed the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God's son and they will rise again those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life and those who have continued an evil will rise to experience judgment I can do nothing on my should I continue yes I can do nothing on my own I judge as God tells me therefore my judgment is just because I can carry out the will of the one who sent me not my own will yes so over here Jesus says I judge only as I hear and my judgment is just for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me now under the Jewish culture if any person is know coming there as a messenger of his master and he very correctly and in a very you know with with integrity delivers all of that all of the message which the master wanted conveyed and in no way is he trying to serve his own interests and he's being truthful towards his master such an agent you know who's conveying the message of his master would be considered most reliable and he would be regarded as a person with full authority they would accept the authority of the agent and speaking to them because why he's completely fulfilling whatever the master wanted him to convey so they would regard his words as having full authority now in the same way Jesus is saying you see I'm I'm a person who never said anything on my own I never preached doctrines which were my own I always have only spoken through the father so he says because I have been a faithful person in conveying what the father wants conveyed therefore he says you know I have never tried to please myself I have always tried to please him therefore he says you know you must accept what I am saying to you the people should be willing to accept the authority of Jesus in speaking these things and they must be willing to place their faith in these things and this is one small point mentioned over here it talks about how a time will come when Jesus will you know will call out and when he calls out people will come out from their graves and it says those who have done what is good will rise up to live you know they would have eternal life so they would live in the presence of God but those who have done what is evil they will rise up to be condemned and so you know we are aware right when we all rise up we would rise up in our resurrected bodies and the interesting point made over here and in fact even in revelation we see the same thing there are people who are resurrected to enter into eternal life and there are people who are resurrected to be thrown into the lake of fire so you know for you to suffer you would need a physical body to experience the suffering and so it's really very sad that there are people who will be resurrected not to enjoy the you know the wonders that God has in awaiting but rather they would rise up in a resurrected body to be condemned to be punished to suffer pain to be separated from God forever so it is such a terrible terrible thing because the resurrected body is something wonderful I mean a human who died of physical death and no longer you know inhabits the body and the body disintegrates or maybe is burnt or whatever and that is now being resurrected once again or every single particle of that body comes back together and it's given a new form so that it's no longer like a human body but it's rather a resurrected body and to have a body like that and learn that because of the choices you made in rejecting Jesus now or what are you rising up with for you're only rising up with this resurrected body for punishment it's such an amazing terrible terrible tragedy so it should make us want to share the word of God you know the gospel with people because it is so sad they are going to be resurrected one day just like us but they'll be resurrected for punishment they will be resurrected for a life of hopelessness there is just no hope left because they have been separated from God and that should create in us a burden to really share the gospel with everyone so that they can be resurrected with hope to look forward to something exciting and enjoyable rather than just be condemned you know forever and ever away from the presence of God moving one from there versus 31 and 32 yeah if we can just have verses 31 and 32 please yeah I mean now based on the Old Testament based on passages like Deuteronomy chapter 19 verse 15 it was generally considered that if someone wishes to say something and they wish to prove that it is true they should there should be at least two or three other witnesses who can establish that what this person is saying is the truth and so here Jesus uses that particular tradition and he says I can come up with three witnesses you know to confirm that what I am saying is true and the three witnesses that he uses are John the Baptist and then he talks about the works which he is doing so his works that the very miraculous works which he is doing they also testify to who he is and the third testimony he says comes from the father himself so these are the three testimony witnesses that Jesus uses to confirm that he is you know divine and that he is equal with the father so we know I mean what John the Baptist was preaching about Jesus he was pointing everyone towards Jesus and saying that he is the Messiah follow him and coming to the works of Jesus they too were testifying that this person is not ordinary he's doing things that only the father can do only the things which only God can do so these things should have proved to them that Jesus is indeed the Son of God like he was claiming to be but they did not choose this testimony they did not accept this testimony why it's because they had hoped that the Messiah would perform certain particular kind of works these were a hardened people who didn't care about the welfare of the people they were not really concerned with the people were getting healed and delivered and their lives were giving you know they were being given a second chance to start life all over again these things were not of interest to them they were hoping for a Messiah who will come and do political works who will know destroy the Romans and re-establish the kingdom of Israel that was the kind of works that they were looking for and so when Jesus came and began to do all this wonderful things of deliverance and compassion they couldn't care less they rejected this testimony even though this was such a powerful testimony so it is the common people in fact who are willing to accept what Jesus was saying the leaders on the other hand they had been hoping that their power would rise to a whole new level once you know the kingdom of Israel is re-established so they were very very disappointed they had been hoping for greater power but that was now denied to them on the other hand what were they seeing they were seeing that the flock which which had been placed under them you know because their leaders and they have a flock of Israelites under their care they were seeing that someone has come and he is now helping the flock delivering the flock healing the flock and that's never what they wanted they wanted to be able to rule over the flock suppress it burden it and you know maintain a firm hand over it so this was definitely not what they wanted so in chapters 4 and 5 the message comes across so clearly you know Jesus his heart and the Jewish leaders and their heart is a clear contrast between these two categories of people in in these two chapters all right we will maybe look at verses 39 to 44 and yeah we can in fact you know gain one or two learnings from this which would be good and useful for us oh yeah before that we talked about the testimony of Jesus works the third testimony he gives is that of his father and this probably is a reference to you know the baptism of Jesus where an audible voice comes out from heaven and says that this is indeed my son so and now I don't know whether everyone's standing over they could clearly hear that voice or not so but John the Baptist explains to him explains to them very clearly what the voice said he says that the voice clearly told that this is my son so they have received the testimony of the father as well okay so these are the three testimonies that Jesus gives to back up his claim that he is the divine son of God so now we come into verses 39 to 44 which just sounds like a lot of heavy words but there is there are you know truths that we can learn even from this so if one of us could just read out 39 to 44 please you search the scriptures for whom you think you had eternal life and this are they what which satisfy everything but you are not willing to come to me that you may have life but you do not receive honor from me that I know you that you do not have the love of God in you I have come in my father's name and you do not receive me if another comes in his own name him you will receive verse 44 how can you believe who receive honor from one another and do not seek the honor honor that comes from the only God all right so Jesus comes in a very simple and humble manner not what they had hoped for they wanted a conqueror they wanted a political force you know who could represent them but Jesus comes in comes in a very humble way in the sense he keeps pointing all the glory towards the father he says what the father wants that I am doing I can do nothing by myself except for the father you know the father enables me to do so he's humbling himself in his human capacity and because he presents himself in that manner the people are not very happy with him because Jesus is constantly pointing to the father and they are not very interested in the father first of all and that is why Jesus points out the truth to them very clearly he says verse 42 he says I know you I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts you see when we when we started off the book of John and we looked at those first disciples they were so excited they were so happy because they had been waiting longingly for this messiah that God would send and so they had a passion for the things of God they were excited about the things of God but here when Jesus is talking to these Jewish leaders and he's pointing out to them you know the truth about himself they are not interested because he's pointing them towards God and for them over the centuries God has just become something that must be followed has a ritual he is no longer someone who excites them and that is why Jesus says in verses 43 and 44 a very valid point he says I have come in my father's name and you do not accept me but if someone else comes in his own name you will accept him how can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God they had this desire for big personalities you know people who will stand there in the front and claim that they are somebody very knowledgeable and very powerful and influential and they would talk in a very impressive manner and everyone would be impressed by such people Jesus on the other hand was doing the exact opposite he instead of you know instead of puffing himself up and making himself appear big he was humbling himself you know staying in the background not getting into confrontations at this moment you know in the early days when he was avoiding a direct confrontation with the Pharisees all of this so they he did not look very impressive to them why because these are people who accept glory from one another for them in the eyes of the world they need to be something big in the eyes of the world they should be considered somebody influential and Jesus was very plainly says in verse 41 I do not accept glory from human beings in the sense I don't need you know the appreciation of people to establish who I am whether people appreciate me or not I am God so you know he he says I don't need human beings you know compliments to place me where I am I already am where I am so these people on the other hand were more impressed by big personalities by you know tall words rather than by someone who is coming in a very humble way and sharing with them the kingdom of God and talking to them pointing them towards the father that they were not impressed with that is not something that they wanted and so they say that some of the scholars they say that this phrase over here in verse 43 if someone else comes in his own name you will accept him they say that maybe Jesus was indirectly even referring to the Antichrist who would come in the end times and the Antichrist would come in his own name he's not trying to say that I am the Messiah because you know we have many many false messiahs right now people who are claiming that I am the promised Messiah but this man Antichrist when he comes he doesn't pretend to be the Messiah being sent you know being talked about in the Old Testament he would clearly establish himself as someone who is an alternative he would offer himself as a better alternative to the Messiah and so maybe Jesus is over here actually referring to the Antichrist when he says if someone else comes in his own name you will accept him and that would is something that would happen in the end times if Jesus is referring to that particular thing all right we are kind of coming into the last portion of John chapter five let's look at verses 45 46 47 if we could have one person read out please yeah it isn't I who accused you before the Father Moses will accuse you yes Moses in whom you put your hopes if you really believe Moses you would believe me because he wrote about me but since you don't believe what he wrote how will you believe how you will you believe what I say yes so it's Moses specifically talks about Jesus in Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 15 where he says that the Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your midst and him you shall hear okay so very specifically over there Moses is talking about the Messiah who will come in the future and then in the other prophetic books of course there are many references to the Messiah now common people ordinary people who are not necessarily scholars or religious leaders they were able to understand what Moses had said and they were able to link this to Jesus you know the prophecy which was given by Moses they were able to connect it to Jesus but it looks like as if this learned leaders refuse to make the connection because in our first very first chapter of John where we you know we saw Philip talking to Nathaniel if we were to just go back you know in our Bibles right now to John chapter 1 verse 45 over there Philip is talking to Nathaniel and this is what he says he says we have found the one Moses wrote about in the law about whom the prophets also wrote so Philip is someone who has studied the law of Moses which is the first five books and he has also studied what the prophets have said and he is able to make the link very clearly and he is able to say see this is the one that Moses was talking about this is the one that the prophets were talking about and here you have very learned Jewish people you know the Pharisees and the scholars who seem to know everything and they are unable to make the connection between the prophecies given and so Jesus says ordinary people are beginning to understand what Moses talked about and they are reaching out to me and submitting themselves to me you on the other hands who are who consider yourselves authorities in the law of Moses who know your first five books by heart you are refusing to accept me and so he says I don't even have to accuse you before the father Moses himself will accuse you because you have considered yourselves you know complete authorities in everything that he has said and you seem to say that you know all and you have known and understood all that what Moses said but here you are refusing to believe what Moses wrote about me and so he says that Moses himself will condemn them for their disbelief in what he has taught and I think it is in Luke yeah Luke chapter 24 verses 25 to 27 where it talks about the you know the incident at on the road to Emmaus where Jesus explains from the scriptures how all of those scriptures were talking about him it says over there in Luke 24 verses 25 to 27 how slow to believe all that okay how foolish you are and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken and then it says in verse 27 beginning with Moses so what does it mean over there beginning with Moses Moses is just the title which is being used for the first five books of the law so that the law of Moses so beginning with the first five books and then all the prophetic books Jesus explains to them how those particular scriptures are talking about him okay so that's what is mentioned over here um yes I think that covers most of the important things anything else that came to your mind any questions that you have or anything that you would just like to you know share your thoughts on chapter four and chapter five if not you know we can just close with the word of prayer so anyone wants to say something or ask something no okay then maybe we can close with the word of prayer Lord we just thank you so much for today's class thank you a lot for the things that we could learn from chapters four and five we pray a lot that unlike the Jewish leaders we would have a heart for the people not a heart for power and position but a heart for the people I pray that we would imitate Jesus Christ in the way we approach people rather than imitate those leaders or Lord who are not interested in people at all we pray a lot that you would give us compassionate hearts that would also treat people with respect and dignity in the same way you treated that Samaritan woman with dignity also a lot we pray that you would cause us to submit to you fully in the same way that you always chose to submit to the father you being completely equal or Lord with the father you chose to submit yourself to him and so how much more is it important that we should be willing to submit to you give us hearts or Lord that will have that kind of a surrendered attitude thank you Lord and we pray that all these learnings which we have learned at the right time when we need these things I pray that you would bring these things back to our mind that you would remind us so that Lord we can walk in these truths which we are learning thank you so much a lot in Jesus name amen amen thank you so much for you know paying attention and I know for you for some of your questions and your thoughts and we'll meet again next week thank you pastor


I took technologies that already exist and just combined them in a way that nobody had really thought of because we had this realization of what the ideal form of nanofabrication might be and we surveyed the landscape for what existed and what we could use and then put them together and as it turns out that involved taking elements from biological engineering, all the conjugation chemistries it involved taking this new form of microscopy that Ed had and his students had invented expansion microscopy as well as these new ways of doing lithography in three dimensions which came out of initially biological imaging but then started getting applied to nanofabrication as well so no one of those disciplines on its own could have done it it's really how things collide to create something entirely new Boom, what's up everyone? Welcome to Simulation, I'm your host, Alan Sakein We are on site at MIT's Media Lab in Cambridge, Massachusetts We are going to be talking about light, art, nanotech We have Daniel Oran joining us on the show, hello Hello, how are you? Thank you so much for coming on, really appreciate it I'm very grateful that Sir Anush Babukanova introduced us and we are going to be unpacking a lot of great technical nuance in your work and also the applications of it It was mind-blowing for me trying to understand it in the short time that we had before this For those that don't know Dan's background, he's a PhD student at MIT Media Lab in the Synthetic Neurobiology Group He's an artist, scientist and inventor who creates using light both aesthetically and technically You can find his website link below, iradiantart.com as well as his MIT Media Lab profile link Alright Dan, let's start things off with our question that we like asking that we find ourselves as stewards of Earth, what is your current take on the state of humanity? Well, I think I'm generally pretty optimistic about things The trend line for prosperity has just been going up steadily for a long time and that has not changed There's definitely a lot of reasons for concern about the future and even about the present but overall I think humanity will step up to the challenge and be able to address it So long as we're willing and able to really focus and answer and tackle hard issues that are in front of us Yes, yes, yeah Totes, there's a lot to tackle and we gotta come together, yeah, to tackle Well, the issue here is the coming together bit because somehow the technologies that connected us much more have somehow also fractured us much more in some ways You have the double edginess of it, yeah Now let's hit your journey So Indiana born and then Massachusetts raised That's right And then how did you pick up your interest in light and art? Well, it all started quite a long time ago In about middle school I started working in a dark room and I just had some amazing mentors all through middle school and then high school and I just fell in love with that process of taking imagery, capturing light and then placing a piece of paper in chemicals and just watching an image appear So that initially is what really made me fall in love with light, yeah And that process is so interestingly, 200 years ago photography came to life and then all the way up to actually leaving the photo in chemicals and having it appear slowly for you That was very profound for you and now all the way to us having the cameras in our pockets Yeah, it's been a huge transition Huge evolution One, we've both gotten to witness Yeah, so many digital photos now taken every single day Now, when that aha moment sparked for you, what was your feeling about light and art when you saw that image appear? I think it was just astonishment that you could take something, a moment from your everyday life and then just fix it and make it permanent, right? And what's I think powerful there is the recontextualizing of an experience, right? Being able to take something that you imagined and then saw and translate that through technology and with your mind's eye to create an aesthetic or idea and communicate that to others Yes All through light and chemistry in one way or another Now through also other forms of technology I love how you put it like a pressing a pause button on a frame of reality and then being able to kind of relive that if you want and in a 2D at least representation and eventually hopefully in a complete virtual immersion potentially That would be nuts Now, this kind of led you to iradiant art and you've been doing that for eight years Teach us about iradiant art Well, I would say when I started going into college I became, I wouldn't say bored with, but like disinterested in doing photography which is purely representational anymore and I really fell in love more purely with this idea of art and trying to create things using light and make artworks that are made of nothing other than light and that sort of led me on a path where I started studying all the old photographic processes and masters and how it was both an act of like science as well as an act of art and that they needed to know what they were doing they needed to manipulate things chemically as well as with light and with the technology of the cameras themselves I feel like the first medium where technology became intrinsic to the aesthetic There's something very profound about, like you said, capturing these These are called irradiance, you call them coherent light You're doing an aesthetic investigation into the wave nature of light These are gorgeous images of coherent light You actually have one right there on your laptop Right like this? Yes, and this is super gorgeous and I want you to explain this to us and we'll have some of these embedded as you talk Yeah, so teach us about it So I was really inspired to do this project almost serendipitously actually I was learning a little bit about holography I had been working in some of these optical applications for holography and I just started noticing, you know, when you mess things up sometimes you get these really crazy forms of light just scattering out across the room So instead of trying to make holograms I instead started trying to capture those artifacts and the way I ended up making these is I actually would make optical elements I'd blow these small glass pieces that mangle and manipulate and refract the light quite a lot and then by passing a beam of coherent light through it I could then capture those images directly onto film But what's most interesting is that in using coherent light it actually exposes the wave nature of the light because you can actually see the interactions of the waves just like you might see ripples on a pond overlapping to create textures of like cross-hatching and things like that So you actually get to see that within the imagery itself And then how are you capturing this? Are these photons kind of just coming at each other?  I just use the same sort of film that's used in the old old view cameras the ones where you put like a hood over your head where there's like a slider that comes up So what all I do is I compose what I want onto a piece of paper and I replace that with the film holder and then open it up and make a brief exposure Brief exposure, interesting, interesting Okay, you're taking what I think so many of us forget about like the environments that we're in have light being exposed like in this room all the time and they're flying around enabling us to see A little bit more than that Also the Wi-Fi, that's also electromagnetic radiation and these sorts of forms of waves overlapping and interfering with one another are happening all around us even though we can't see it And would you say that then the waves of things like a Wi-Fi the photons are they kind of just like constantly going by all the time in the spaces So within the oxygen and nitrogen that's here there's also all the waves of photons and Wi-Fi and then we're just as animals just sitting in there Yeah, we're just being bombarded all the time So if you would capture a kind of like a still of what it looks like would it just look like noise kind of? Well, I mean most of the radiation we're exposed to is incoherent So those waves are there but there's so many of them and they're not lined up so it all just looks like blurs together but it's still happening whereas with a laser beam what you've done is you've lined all those waves up so that when they do interact you can actually see these sorts of interference patterns occurring Interesting, so you can almost think about it that like directly from the source of light it's the most coherent and then it becomes incoherent once it gets mixed up with all the other stuff A little bit, I mean most of these lights are incoherent to begin with It really takes a laser to be able to do that And then is that the difference then between a coherent is a constructive? Yeah, coherent means that all the waves are lined up and then that's a constructive interference versus destructive interference So let's say you have those waves and you overlap them sometimes those waves will add together and make a bigger peak or sometimes they'll cancel out and there will be nothing there Okay, so if the wave is propagated right on top of potentially another wave you could get the bigger peaks and then if they're a little bit offset then it could cancel out And oftentimes when you do this you see both, you see them both canceling out and creating brighter peaks which is why you see these big ripples especially when two waves come together in water They get bigger, they get taller but then in some areas you don't see anything, it's just sort of flat Yeah, interesting, so that may be like when in the ocean maybe two like you know ten foot waves kind of like come together and make a huge wave Exactly, that would be constructive interference constructive interference, interesting versus when they kind of cause each other to break apart destructive, interesting Okay, so taking us all the way to MIT Media Lab the last four years here you're pursuing your PhD in the synthetic neurobiology group and you're exploring nanotechnology you're blowing open the design constraints for nanofabrication with what's known as implosion fabrication So teach us about, you're blowing my mind with this like 2D nanofab predicated on the planar on a single plane versus 3D nanofab predicated on a volumetric deposition Yeah, that's right So this project started quite a long time ago and what actually happened is I had been in photography for doing that professionally just creating art and trying to show it and things like that and then I reconnected actually with my high school friend Samuel Rodriguez who I started this project with and he invited me to the lab and introduced me to Ed and Ed started letting me just start working in the wet lab rather so I sort of like made this transition from dark room to wet lab and in that process we ended up having this insight which is based off of another technology from the lab called expansion microscopy which was at the time a crazy idea that you can take a tissue and in order to see it with better resolution you actually just make it bigger as opposed to trying to build fancier and fancier microscopes to try to see below the diffraction limit of light and as it turns out this works great Ed demoed that on the TED stage with the diaper the materials with the diaper that would be below It's the same polymer as in diapers Expansion microscopy is when you blow something up that's smaller, blow it up to make it easier for you to analyze and do photograph it Yeah, image it And then this was initially just sort of a thought experiment about what if you did that in reverse what if instead of taking something you want to see and making it bigger why don't you take something and pattern it bigger and then make it smaller and more importantly what's that even good for This is a crazy idea of shrinking things down But what we realized is this actually has quite a lot of benefits even beyond the shrink itself because there's an analog here between what nanofabrication was and what it could be in the future and that once you have this scaffold like the one in expansion microscopy what you can do is you can create things in a volume as opposed to having to have it all connected or anything like that So whereas nanofabrication was predicated on a planar deposition where you create a mask and then you deposit material and then you do that over and over again to build something We're taking what was an imaging technology for imaging in three dimensions turning that on its head to do patterning which people have already done but more importantly doing it inside of one of these scaffolds that lets you shrink it down So it's a bit like the difference between like a paper cutout and a painting but in 3D whereas in 2D if you want to make a painting you have this canvas and this is a bit like a two-dimensional scaffold and you can apply different amounts of paint so you can create gradients the paint doesn't need to be connected to each other it can be separate from one another and you can put down different colors and that's almost like putting down different materials whereas with a paper cutout you sort of have to have everything connected together it's sort of hard to have multiple different materials you have to be like actually going in and grafting it together so it's supporting and connected So we wanted to do that for the third dimension and that brought us to this idea of volumetric deposition whereas when we make transistors we rely on something called the planar process which is planar deposition so in order to extend that into the third dimension we have this scaffold to be able to do volumetric deposition So teach us about the actual scaffold there's a hydrogel so teach us about that So a hydrogel you can sort of think of it as a bowl of spaghetti in water where all the spaghetti is sort of connected to each other in this big network and in the case of this hydrogel that spaghetti has a whole bunch of different chemical groups on it that are negatively charged so they repel each other so that's what causes it to expand and like holds that open and then you can infuse a small die actually and then wherever you zap that with light it'll stick to the spaghetti and that forms an anchor it actually is a bit like a latent image in photography where you create this initial image in three dimensions and then what you can do is go in afterwards and develop it into whatever material you want through volumetric deposition Okay and then when as I'm the anchor points are then you're attaching, you're shining light so it attaches and then afterwards we can deposit on those anchor points using nanoparticles or other water-based chemistry where you just sort of like watch something on and it either sticks or then grows at the point where you've put all these anchors and what would be an example of a material that you would want to anchor on to? So the ones we've demonstrated are silver for making conductors and semi-conducting nanocrystals as well so and then because we're again using this expansion microscopy hydrogel you can then actually add acid or salt and then it shrinks down by a factor of 10 or more actually linearly which is, you know, we can go as much as a million-fold volumetric and once you've finished with that process it's actually dehydrated so it's actually a resistor, it's like a dielectric material which you now have conductors and potentially also semi-conductors embedded inside of Holy cow Wow, okay so let me see if I can paraphrase again so you have like a bowl of interconnected spaghetti and water and then you have the hydrogel enables you to add the anchor points and shine the material Well, the die is when you pattern it it creates those anchor points The die creates the anchor points Yeah, it sticks to the spaghetti and that's like an intermediate that then lets you put other material there so it's like a meatball then can stick to it Sure, sure and then when you remove all the water all the meatballs come together And you used acid or salt Yes Okay, and then that can shrink it by ten or more fold down to potentially even a million Well actually anywhere from between two to now even like forty-fold So we're talking like taking a bowl like an actual bowl of spaghetti and turning that into less than a grain of sand Oh yeah, exactly Yeah, and then you can embed potentially computational capacity into that Absolutely Something that's less than a grain of sand Absolutely And then is that mostly like seeming to be used for computational purposes? Well, I think there's many, many different applications here You can take it in so many different directions since really what we've done is just expand the design space for what can be made to have nanoscale resolution and also useful materials, right? So as a result there's lots of things you can do You can make traditional computers potentially The things I'm most excited about are the light-based applications So 3D printing optics, lenses that are super super thin but very powerful or even it's been shown you can make these optical neural networks so we could pattern optical neural networks and then if you expand that even further you could imagine maybe even making minds that function based off of light Okay, before we get to all those things How do we actually make that both spaghetti into something that's like an optic? An optic Yeah, how would you... Well, in this case the thing you're causing to stick to the backbone of the hydrogel is something that causes light to bend So you just control either the geometry of where you put the material that causes light to bend or the concentration because you can also just change the laser intensity when you're trying to pattern it and you can control how much of it it is and that's called a gradient optic actually which traditionally have been very very hard to make and you never really had much geometric control but now we have essentially complete geometric control Okay, and then with this complete geometric control you're able to add whatever it may be for processing capacity or for optical capacity and then you're shrinking it and you're looking to add other materials to see if this can be used for you said crazy things like optics computation also you said... you said photonic computing optical neural networks minds made out of light Okay, let's unpack these one at a time So what would a... something that's at the nanoscale of an optic how would that be used? How would that be used? So one simple case is just making lenses that are much smaller and much better you know when you stick a lens on your camera it's you know sometimes this long you know sometimes even this long right but there's... the only reason it needs to be that long is you need to have like the curvature of the lens and it needs to be of a certain size to be able to collect that light but each one of those lenses induces certain kinds of aberrations so then you need more lenses to correct her those in order to shape and sculpt the light just right once it like hits your sensor or piece of film but when you have this sort of nanoscale control and these materials that can bend light quite a lot you can then architect all those functions from all those different lens elements all into one very very thin plane Okay, so the amount of space that we need in order to have the optic make the capturing of the image and then that we could embed the ability to be able to maybe send that constant stream of what you're capturing to our cloud Yeah, you could do that with electronics we're capturing it at the back you could also... one of the cooler papers that came out recently is they actually 3D printed these grids that diffract light in different ways and they have multiple layers of them and each layer is actually the layer in a neural network and each layer is doing computation on that light so you can cut sensors on this side and then an object on the other side and it'll do the machine vision to say is that a shoe? Wow, wow so within the actual optical imagery but that was done with microwaves so much longer wavelengths but I could do that with optical wavelengths the visible spectrum which is how we view the world so maybe also how we want these things to understand the world Whoa, okay, so we're talking things at the nanoscale almost... nanoscale is invisible to the human eye? Absolutely, yes, yeah So about the smallest thing a human eye can see is roughly I think 10 microns if you just hit catch the light just right and this is, let's see about 3 orders of magnitude less than that 3 orders of magnitude less than that Is it a billionth of a meter? It's 10 to the negative 9 Yeah, yeah, okay Yeah, yeah, yeah So then when you embed this thing that these nanotechs that are basically invisible they are invisible to the human eye then I'm so crazy to think for us animals that you can somehow put optical technology processing technology embedded in something that's that small when we've had these massive computers that yeah, I mean they've gotten a lot smaller It's crazy in some senses but you look at biology and it's already doing all that sort of stuff So this is not new it's just that we with our big hands fumbling around can't build it, right? So we're finally being able to understand how to manipulate matter to a greater and greater degree so we're starting to actually be able to do some of the same things that biology can I think that's actually one of the really exciting things about maybe now having a rapid prototyping approach to doing nanofabrication is you can maybe even have some sort of synthetic evolution where you can create tens of thousands or millions of variations on a structure very very quickly and like in evolution naturally or in this case unnaturally select for the ones that work the best and just keep doing that so you can instead of trying to understand everything and optimize it to be perfect in our heads or in our computers instead impose the design constraints for the function that we want and then just sort of like divide the formation of the structures that are best able to do that Yeah, that type of figuring out what letting this directed evolution find the best fit is, and like you said is already happening all the crazy processes that are happening within our bodies that we can't necessarily see I mean in some ways evolution already happens in our bodies there's something called somatic hypermutation which is how our active immune system works it's actually actively rejiggering genes to create antibodies that will recognize whatever foreign intruders are there and selecting for the ones that best bind and then producing more of those in order to then recognize let's say you know a bacteria or a virus Yeah, that's one of those for say it's like the constant computing of what's happening within us in regard to the environments that we're in and how to best survive in them and so then when you do a directed evolution with a synthetic neurobiology what would that look like? Well it really depends what you're trying to make right? In the case of optics for instance you're talking about creating structures smaller than the wavelength of light but which performs some operation on that light so what you could do is you could just pattern many many variations of this structure and see how that affects the light and then you can build like a catalog of all these things that do different operations on the light and then start combining those and seeing what sort of functions you can create from that and iterating on that and maybe all the while taking the measurements and seeing what these structures are and using that data to then do something like machine learning and figure out what is the topology of this space and maybe then more generatively inside of a computer just output the functional that you care about just by telling it what you want and then at the same time not understanding how any of it works. So does it seem like the nano fabrication is going to be that we're going to be doing this process more often with embedding what we want optics computing and then shrinking It's possible that's one approach to doing it to getting the resolution is through the shrink but it's unclear that the real demand here is in resolution rather just this new expansion of the design space to be able to create gradients to be able to pattern multiple materials and through dimensions and to be able to do it at really really high resolution is incredibly powerful and also in any geometry you can imagine because it's all embedded in a scaffold that doesn't need to be connected it doesn't need to be supported or anything like that so that really just like blows things open to some degree and even if you don't really shrink you could still use this for doing some very powerful fabrication and that adding that level of shrink just lets you get that resolution down which is good for some applications this seems to be one of the many exponential technologies what nanotech feels like is going to permeate everything as well kind of like artificial intelligence everything is in tons of ways just shrinking in terms of its size shrinking in terms of its capacity capabilities and hopefully it's going to make it easier for us to live in the world yeah I think there's a bit more than that I think you know when you can build things that are closer and closer to what we see in nature and in biology you can in turn start A doing the same sorts of amazing things that biology already does at the nanoscale but also in turn create things that are more integrated with biological systems as well one thing that's kind of funny about my process is that I had this huge issue of E. coli eating my nanostructures they were too delicious so it's very pile compatible I had to start adding antibiotics to prevent that from happening so one of the things that I think you just pointed out that's really interesting is there's all these complicated biological processes that have been evolving for billions of years and so now we're kind of looking at the catalog of biological processes identifying which ones we want to work with kind of like the electronics era that we're building and figuring out how to blend these and shrink and really get them down in size and scale but increase in capacity for applied to our everyday lives well I think we'll see a blurring of what we consider technology and what we consider biology there's no reason that those are distinct things it's just biology happened on its own but now we are starting to rest control over that but then also these more synthetic approaches like what I've done as well as what nanofabrication has done in order to create structures and understand what we're making and do it smaller and smaller and have more and more control and at some point these things might converge biology is this amazing way in which it can have a code like DNA and from that it is then able to generate the huge amounts of complexity of structure and function that it can and it builds itself using that information in turn when we get enough control over these synthetic systems you could also imagine building micro machines that can have some embedded code within them that then allows them to also reproduce themselves to create again another form of sort of synthetic evolution or self assembly more akin to biology and that's super intelligence I don't know maybe in many ways it feels like it's all pointing in the direction of super intelligence I like how you said that technology is part of biology it's what biology created technology but it's all in the lines of blurring more and more teach us about digital transcendence and singularity oh you mean these art pieces that I made what it means for yeah well a long time ago right when the transition from like analog photography into digital photography was happening I thought a lot about mediums and how mediums have some intrinsic quality to them it's not that necessarily one is better all it is is that they're different you know back then people were like oh digital that's crap we're gonna stick with film and dark room prints are always better which we've seen is not really necessarily the case they're different and they have different qualities to them and I thought this was sort of similar to some of the same thoughts going on in Silicon Valley and how you know one could upload their mind to the cloud or perhaps you know technology becomes a singularity but that's also a transition into a digital medium from an analog medium right so I created these pieces a sort of question that I came up with a process by which you can create an image using light but that image falls apart into the digital medium it begins to break apart into these maze structures because the light itself is right on the edge of what the sensor can sense so it confuses the algorithms that create that image that take that information and compose it into an image and as a result you end up with this image that is both of the thing that existed in the analog world but is now also an image of the algorithm which then made that transition into the digital world and I imagine you know if we are uploading our minds for instance you're going to see that same sort of transition even if you can imagine understanding the brain perfectly up to like 99.999 percent and you imagine that every microsecond you're doing a computation if that last tiny bit if that over the entire brain just keeps happening over and over and over again in the simulation you could very very very quickly just diverge from being human for that tiny tiny difference because over time the way things function will just very very quickly change because the medium with which it's embedded is just also slightly different and that's only if it's also slightly different it probably would be very different Interesting, your thoughts on mediums I think and the way that there's a difference between the analog and the digital and to do something like being able to upload and what comes with that process what fidelity comes with that process it's such a complicated it's so hard to even wrap our minds around what that process like we don't know what's happening here how do we even upload that In thinking of mediums as having some intrinsic aesthetic and maybe meaning in their own one of the projects I started working on involves thinking about the ocean the communication that occurs there where in the ocean the two primarily modes of communication are sound and light you see a lot of bioluminescence and you see a lot of like auditory communication so I was thinking alright can we combine these two into a singular medium for expression and as it turns out there's these algae that when you perturb them mechanically they light up right you can go swimming in these bioluminescent bays it lights up around you so the thought here was you can actually use waves of sound to mechanically perturb these algae and cause them to light up and the cool thing about sound is it's a wave so you can actually do holography with it so you could potentially even control like how all the sound waves cancel each other out or constructively interfere like I was talking with light earlier to create an image in three dimensions which is then inducing the emission of light by these biological organisms and just trying to use this as a medium to communicate maybe some of the more profound struggles that the ocean is now facing with ocean acidification as well as all the plastic that's just completely demolishing ecosystems and that's not to say global warming heating things up is also taking a huge toll as well so maybe you can have a representation of that embedded in the mediums of communication that are intrinsic to the ocean to be able to kind of see the health bar of what's going on or at least communicate it and maybe move people move people into action so much of what we do is engaging in an inspiring side of things and the work that's happening right now is this place in MIT Media Lab is just popping this is just the stuff you see this is the tip of the iceberg then there's the rest of MIT which you don't see but a lot of that work is extremely foundational this is just the stuff that percolates up into the public eye the one that actually gets talked about through the media versus the stuff like you said it's bottom iceberg all of what is happening here as you walk down the halls is how much of these processes are happening in Tel Aviv or in Shenzhen or in London etc around the world how many of these groups are working on tackling some of the edge of knowledge innovations obviously there's people all over the world working on these problems and they're all doing fantastic jobs of it but I think there's something to be said for concentration when you take enough minds working on these sorts of problems and just stick them all in a very close space something very special happens right the serendipity of interaction takes over and you start seeing people you know taking disciplines that were separate and they're just collide to create something completely new and I think that's one of the things that the media lab has done a pretty good job of taking disciplines and just completely blurring the lines all together right yeah it's like when you look at the edge of knowledge and you find two fields and then where is that where do those edges come into another vertex and when you keep pushing when you blur those lines and keep pushing that edge then you have all the innovation that happens in that field new fields emerge new children get even in my case I took technologies that already exist and just combined them in a way that nobody had really thought of because we had this realization of what the ideal form of nanofabrication might be and we surveyed the landscape for what existed and what we could use and then put them together and as it turns out that involve taking elements from biological engineering engineering all the conjugation chemistry it involved taking this new form of microscopy that Ed had and his students had invented expansion microscopy as well as these new ways of doing lithography in three dimensions which came out of initially biological imaging but then started getting applied to nanofabrication as well so no one of those disciplines on its own could have done it it's really how things rely to create something entirely new you had yourself as an experience and you're right you're putting together the minds at a place like beelab it's inevitable that in such great concentration there's going to be more and more cool edges pushed and ideas created let's ask you a couple of the simulation questions on the way out the first question is are we in a simulation well honestly I don't really care whether I'm in a simulation or not is sort of my answer it's sort of irrelevant to me if you're living your life such that when you find out the simulation is real you're going to change then you're probably living your life wrong if you're content with what you're doing inside of a simulation then you'll be great right the whole point is like where you derive meaning I think one of the interesting things is today we have like this crisis of spirituality or meaning in our lives largely because a lot of people have broken away from our traditional religious institutions and things like that which initially had given us a lot of meaning so now we're in a place where you know it's very easy to feel like there is no meaning but once you take that and you accept that maybe there is no meaning the only meaning that matters is that what you create for yourself so if you were to live in a simulation how would you live your life creating maybe your own meaning yeah that's a good answer we ask the question a lot to probe about how people think in general and that's interesting that you tie meaning into the simulation question and we gain so much of our fulfillment in our lives by setting some sort of a massive goal that we want to achieve and taking a burden and going towards that goal and continuing to level up in the game and then also potentially making our own simulations and there's so much other cool stuff to do I'm sure Media Labs are already deep into simulation territory and there's going to be a lot more that is done definitely walk around here and it's a bit reminiscent of Black Mirror I can tell you that much sometimes there's some positive potentials as well well of course everybody likes to talk about there's an image right now on that screen of a matrix figure that was ridiculous we're talking about simulation questions so we're in the matrix that's the great answer and Dan last question is what do you think is the most beautiful thing in the world and my answer is light what I have found all the art I've ever created was for me to both communicate as well as experience the beauty of light and what can be made from and experienced through light that's the first time we've heard light as the answer to the most beautiful thing in the world yeah for someone that spent decade plus immersed in light well I think one of the ironic things is back in the days when we worked in the dark room in order to create things from light you had to deprive yourself from it yeah so I actually spent a lot of time in rooms that are completely pitch black in order to develop film and things like that and it gives you a very different appreciation I think for light and you begin to understand what it means to be blind also and to have to always have a map of your entire surroundings in your head a different kind of simulation literally a map yeah it's a simulation of what's around you in three-dimensional space without that visual input without the visual input yeah that was a really strong end this has been such a solid and enlightening conversation thank you so much for coming on to this show thank you for having me holy cow there's so much work that you guys are doing here that's fascinating and at the edge and I'm like a little child trying to understand it and hopefully help other people get inspired and engage with it thank you so much thanks to everyone for tuning in we greatly appreciate it we would love to hear your thoughts in the comments below on the episode and nanotechnology as well also find the links below to Dan's work go and support him, support the synthetic neurobiology group the MIT Media Lab follow them, follow their work as well and support the artists and entrepreneurs and organizations around the world that you believe in support simulation our links are below so you can do cool things like continue coming onsite and conducting awesome interviews like this and go and build the future everyone manifest your dreams into the world we love you very much, thank you for tuning in and we will see you soon peace