Good morning. I'm Jeff Chung, Lo Director of Veteran Services for the town of Arlington I've invited veterans from different eras of conflict to join me today to discuss their feelings on Memorial Day as well as their military service Joining me today is Ray DeRosa's a US Marine Corps veteran from the Korean War So thanks for being here Ray Thank you Jeff for asking me. Sure. So you served in Korea? Yes, I did. Okay, and you were with the Marine Corps Can you tell us what you did while you were serving in the Marine Corps? Well, I was in a weapons company, second battalion, first Marine Regiment, first Marine Division And ordinarily I was a rifleman. That was my speciality And when I left Korea, I'll get back to Korea just one second I went left Korea, I became a squad leader in a rifle platoon, but in Korea when they We went up to the front lines They needed ammo carriers for the 81 millimeter mortars and so I selected there and so I did I was an ammo carrier now just a prelude to our prelude to that on our way up to the front We were in this railroad car built by the Japanese Probably about 1845 sometime. It was it was just a pigsty But anyway, we run that and we were told by the veterans who had come back and they were going home to failure Utilities with C-reactions, K-reactions, assault-reactions, and Cigarettes because they wouldn't get them up with the line too much. So anyway, the point is there's a rickety Railroad and we had to make stops They're probably throwing the wood in for crying out into the engine now Every stop these poor people wretched people and rags and little babies and everything else. They were good baking baking for food So we were giving them a C-reaction, a K-reaction, and so forth. I'm telling you it was up It was a sad situation. It was tragic people. But anyway, by the time we got up to Monsanee Which is the breaking up point going to the line We didn't have any more, no more food. However, we had a cigarette now from there We went up to the guns and so forth and They have to first stop to give you a back ride of the guns. When you get to the guns 81 So it was a terrific surge by the Chinese to take this hill which we were guarding protecting called Boulder City and we were firing like crazy and You have to understand artillery fire 4.2 water fire 81 water fire 16 millimeter firing hand grenade firing machine gun firing shorter Small arms firing so forth Because I'll go back there in a moment now. We're making these runs from the guns to bring it to a depot where the The ammo was held and we load up on the 6-byte and then come by was called 76 alley, which was a Which was the main road back to the guns. He called 76 alley because the The Chinese had it zeroed in Chinese Communist. Well, anyway, my last run. This is what I'm talking about now my last run there We we unloaded and so forth. So I normally went back for more Now I'm going back. We hit a checkpoint or as always and so there was a We loaded up again and came back hit the checkpoint and the marina checkpoint said look it When you're way back when you bring me back a lucky strike as I Was giving me camels here. I won like a strike and just he said that a Chinese water came on and hit him It hit the hole so we took off flying down that road back to the guns But that was the first water second water incrementally following us down the road and we knew Eventually they were going to hit us and that just before you get to the guns They hit us now I get blown out of the truck Only towards the light. That's all I know and the next thing I remember It's I was trying to get to my feet and it wasn't doing very well now our executive Jungle Jim Sanzo he came over and he's in my face and I know he was yelling at me But you know it sounded far away with all the noise and plus this is one or two o'clock in the morning The Chinese never attacked during the day because we were slurred at the maria force and so He attacked in the morning at night the other than every that type of thing now as he's Yelling in my face and we were fighting by flares. That's that's the right thing we could see it's garish light He's putting my helmet back on my head and my rifle back on my shoulder. He's saying Marie Marie Can you help the animal and the last words I carry members in yes, sir. Yes, Tim Next thing I remember. I'm on a quad And I'm gonna change it's very quiet And there were three men probably Corbin, but I didn't know anything about that I sat up my helmet my rifle my Flak jacket rolled by the quad And I just set up and one of those good Corbin came up to me Sat beside me off me a cigarette and smoked by took it because in those days if someone off your cigarette I signed a friendship. So anyway, I took it and he said how you doing I Said fine. I think I said fine. That's the last thing I remember Next thing I remember I'm back with the guns again and it's the last last night of the war And I don't know how I got there and when we think about anything. I just lost my memory and Anyway, we get hot all your members. We had hot chow hot chow So I'm telling you it was raining when it rains in Korea and in the Orient Those those raindrops are the size of Nicholton quarters. I mean they're coming down, but we had the hot chow Suddenly mortis start coming in again and I'll spare the eloquence of a Marine reply To those guys over Chinese anyway You know, I can't believe this died in a mud and everything else and so the next and then That's all I remember the next thing I remember For coming offline, I here's a couple of Auxiliary your stories here to this coming offline. I worked for a demo man a demolition man after the war And we were we were exploding with the DMZ we were creating the DMZ We had to explode all our fortifications and then move back a mile and they did the same things before and so on so I worked for him well before I did that I was in a tent with in the And a couple my buddies and one a Marine from 7th Regiment To Surrey City comes over he has a life magazine in his hand. It's about two weeks after the war ended He said look at this life magazine. I should have brought it with me life magazine had a feature I have at home a feature of the Marines at on both the city and The kids he's a big guy and he said look at that. He's leading Men off the line. There's a common on the right side Column with tools he's on the on the right side of the combs on the left. He said look at my mother sent me home Well, anyway, I have that home now 20 years later I Pick up a Unchained advocate in the advocate is a picture of Joe Egan Friend of mine. I think I told you why he was killed. He was killed He wasn't killed in Korea, but he died later. I but he was wounded But we were on the same hill He was on he was on Boulder City when I was there But we didn't know it and he was telling his story to some important from the aunt and advocate on Memorial Day So I called him on a telephone. We went down the American Legion out of UBS And it's the first time I ever talked about Korea or anything else and we talked about what a rat hole It wasn't everything else. Sure. Yeah, and so that was that was my career work experience. Wow So so let me back up just a little bit So what made you want to join them the military to begin with? When I was I was about 17 I want to join the Marine Corps. My father was killed in World War two He was torpedoed believe it or not off the coast of North Carolina by the German you put 160 and the name of the German you will come in was lessons. Well, anyway He was from Argentina and he was a farm press correspondent actually when he came up and he went to Columbia School of Journalism and then he met my mother going out to go had a good job But when the depression came And he's a he's a man a very intelligent man spoke excellent English, but with a Spanish accent now You had PhD speaking your King's English selling apples on the corner couldn't get a job So what he'd do was the only job you get before it unless he wanted to go back to Argentina He did a job. He took the merchant Okay, so when the war broke out There he was he came to three war zones And it and nothing happened to up the coast and look how it was Mars 29 Palm Sunday 1942 and he was Listed as missing in action at first and then they found out how he died and everything else. He was he was to he was torn off the ship and and Three of his shipmates found them later on the water by midnight they pulled them on but by the morning he had died and We can work that's it in We get all this information. They don't later on naturally and they shift them over to the side and so well anyway So that's that's my point about going the Marine Corps when the real war broke out. I was 17 my mother said look at It's never you know your father can use 40 year or two is so far and so on so I listen to I said, okay Now I have to say something else too My when we were living down in New York, I come from New York They tried to get killed and so we were there I went to a dealer saw Christian Brothers school around the corner so forth, but about 1947 Things are getting very tough and then there was an epidemic of smallpox in New York so my mother sent my older sister my older brother my younger brother and I up to my Her family the coffees and that's where we're living Anyway, I didn't join but a year or so later I was in a hardware Johnson's and a policeman or a couple of friends of mine and the police and came in And I didn't have anything in front of me. He said how come you're not drinking? I saw mortar and grabbing around the neck pull me out.  Hey, I love the police I want to say that right now and More for them at this particular time. I had a certain problem. Anyway They wanted to send me to a ball pool And so my lawyer said look at this young man has always wanted to be a marine Or else you let him train the Marine Corps and so the judges. Hey the Marines are fighting in Korea Send the clear or the marine or the captain of the police was delivered But anyway, he says if you can get a clearing from the Marine Corps You can go in so I rushed out to the Marine Corps in the salt station across the street And I gave him all the information.  He said look a kid It's not a question. You're letting me down some Marine Corps. I said look how about a break? So he looked at me. He's okay signs the waiver. I Go back to the courthouse Cambridge court. I give it to the court records He looks at it.  Okay. Well, that's great So you were one of those go to war go to jail guys exactly and I was a high school dropout Even though I have two advanced Degrees in literature now at that time. I didn't have a thought in my head. Okay So, um, what were your feelings about basic training? Well, the Marine Corps it's not uh, it's it's not a luxury camp They were very free with their hands the Marine Corps very tough training but very good training and uh, I can't explain everything to you, but they were tough And they call you out three o'clock in the morning. Okay, get out It'd be uh, the sun be say 110 the shade, right? And then you're not to it, but the red flag is up on the uh on the drill field. You're not supposed to go out there The air would come into the barracks fall out rifles and everything else Right there and you're really sweaty. Are you saying get your two left feet or so forth? Anyway, it was a tough situation But I'll I'll say this for them They trained me and they trained me well. They trained every marine and and here's the example of this growing a career It took 15 days to go there It was a trip and we were down the hole and we had to go up on deck every morning. We went up for rifle inspection the army we had some army Changed contingent there too And they had their the rifles broken down putting it into a seat bag and they never looked at a rifle Now you may know about the chosen reservoir before I got there The Marines were surrounded by 250,000 Chinese and it was 40 blades degrees below zero.  They just weren't trained Well, the marine trainees are best and there's a there's a it was a colonel in the army And they had a story about him on tv In the background. I had a picture of the Marines coming out of the chosen reservoir He says I'll bet you the only I've been on the only army colonel who was a picture of the Marines So behind me because he loved the marine.  And so down there that's one thing you know But I learned camaraderie down there that uh, you know, you try to just it's a unit And it's not just fighting for America you fight for the marine beside you and you need him Yeah, and and and goodbye darkness by William Manchester his Is uh at the cover deal his experience in world war two he says any man does have a friend in the marine corps is doomed He's damned, you know, you just stick together. It was that cohefen Yeah, and it was a sort of brotherly love. You know it comes out to that You need each other. So when you when you saw your brother come home After joining the marine corps. What was your first impression? Oh, he was sharp Yeah, he was He was always sharp kiddie, but he was really sharp and and when he wasn't around he didn't have his uniform on I used to try his shirt on you know Geez, I'm going to be over and I'm going to tell you something else when I went into combat Just before into combat, you know, Pete did see if you're talking about fear and everything else But I was exhilarated Because I said to myself. I'm a young man here I'm going to into combat as I'm United States Marine. I couldn't believe it You know that that can wear off a little bit But I mean that that initial feeling sure So where where exactly did you serve? Through throughout your career. So I know you went to basic training Paris island And then I went to campus June and I was a 4 to 4.2 waters They put me in there and from there we used to go on these excursions of our cold water training and then Hot hill training our cold water. We went up to Labrador And if you haven't been to labrador, I don't know if it's the same in all over the country But it's like walking on pie crust that that was and you know, I was in Fort Deuston and And we carried the base plate and everything they got so That was that was one for training. So about how much did that equipment weigh? Oh, it did it work? Oh, how much did it weigh? Oh, jeez. I can't tell the weight But I'm going to tell you it was heavy by carrying across Something but it was really heavy and and the gun and he didn't carry anything And we had a base plate the gun And the tripod tripod was fairly light but that kind of that base plate He got and so then from there we went down to the Vegas, Puerto Rico for hot weather training and so forth in the hills and everything else and And then we came back and every day I was volunteering for career this friend of mine. They do little buddies Every day we go into the first sergeant. We're volunteering for career. Okay. Get out of here. I hear you One day we go in there.  We traveled through his class from Boston to To California to Camp Pendleton We had a I had my own my own suite And and and he was he had on the other side of the aisle of the train. He had his own suite and you know what the The food allowance was for four days $20 and it lasted us too. You know in those days, you know 15 cents for a breakfast that type of And so that's how we got to camp Pendleton Um So while you were away, how did you keep in touch with family and friends? You're right. You're right all the time. There's no getting around that. Yeah And that's you know, that's one thing you crave when you when you're in the Marine Corps Any service, I'm sure Lettuce from home Hey, you're right him. You're right him. You're right. We used to get him Well, it's interesting when I was down Paris island at the d. I He looks up my name. He's sitting on top of the car and we're all around. He's he's storing the letters Oh, hey, Joe says Tim that's so for and someone He says it comes to DeRosa. He says what kind of name is that? I said Spanish I'm Spanish on iris. My family's irish. My mother's irish. He says You're a spaghetti been But I mean that's the way he talked in those days, too But let us go home. You wrote that's all you did. Okay. No phone calls No phone phone. I never thought of a phone call and it would nickel too But I'm sure from california to to boston would have been probably 25 cents But never got a phone call. I never found No, whatever for me. So when you were in korea How was the mail service?  Yeah, we get regular mail and we had this Someone set up this with batteries and he had like a little radio and it went our tent after the war and We had this radio station. We only got one there was radio maple leaf. It was like there was a canadian Program and he used to play all kinds of music and everything else and so and he used to call him so this is happy jack From from the happy bird some from japan. He's in so we used to say, yeah, you're happy. You're in japan anyway, he was He played his songs and one song we heard there was some odd music Pink floors be required of the song called some of these days.  Wow Suddenly a japanese comes on And he's singing in japanese been caused the song and he's and he's hitting a grace note for grace note And add living and everything I couldn't believe I I'd love to have a crop here that were ready Yeah, but anyway that that was uh, that that was it for korea. So interesting but the thing you missed You missed home. You miss home cooking. You missed your family and so forth. You miss girls, you know just to say a woman for crying a lot And uh, lordy, that was it and then meals Food food food, you know, we used to get to see where it comes a lot and so forth Now we had something called beef and grease I loved it. I mean he just ate that up and I don't know what it was Well, we ate it anyway And then the thing I really missed too was music.  So what did you do in your free time? Well, what in the free time and how much I get sent from weapons company What we did was we had to dig uh adjacent emplacements as I said and uh, we went out now to a little story about that We had to go out and dig up. We had to make new tranquilizer in other words So when I was still with uh, when I was still with weapons company before I went to the DMZ We used to go out and dig One time we're in and there was hot and so forth. Anyway, we're in single file We came to this pass and only a single file of men could traverse And we're halfway to about a quarter of a mile Anyway, we get halfway there And who meets us but this Korean woman and she has a baby in her back or in front of again She had a big bag of That clothing she was washing And so we're yelling to the first our first sergeant Taylor We didn't like him. He was a son of a guy at the time. I didn't like And so we said come on tell tell her to go back to it would have been a long walk for He turns around he says to the rear So the whole platoon and 43 men We all go back where you all go back to the end, right? And we're waiting she comes and she comes out to the exit and he as he she comes out He chips his helmet to her. I said to myself, you know, I changed my opinion of him I thought it's a real man there Because then because the other guys didn't lie didn't like it either but you know, it was so hot and everything else So when I worked with a demo man, we said he was he was a warrant officer And he'd be making the explosives and I'd be helping her Fire in the hole and all that. I knew his hands were shaking, you know But we used to talk and he said to me once what do you plan to do when you when you get out of the Marine Corps? As I said, I I said, I said, I'll say I I live from day to day in the Marine Corps I know he had a wife and children he was going home to but Me I didn't I didn't see any future Really? Okay, here I am, you know, and then I get sent up to the DMZ And then in the DMZ with patrols patrols patrols and every time you're out there See we were up the up in the hills and we were what and the DMZ was out there and across We could see the villages out there North Korean villages and we had to report everything they were doing and so forth And that's what I did and there was one incident. I can tell you about What it had to do with with the Chinese. I meant we're used to meeting We go out like there was like a catwalk out there and these Chinese would come out and we go out and meet them because now just to show them We were Marines or whatever One was very old and one was very young. I always thought that about the orientals out there Korean stuff Well, they either were very old or very young. I never saw any middle-aged. Anyway, it's next story who uh What was I gonna do?  We have a big meeting up on them. They built a mess hall up there Kwanzaa He said look at you guys I don't care if you guys are christians jews jews for jesus All I know is we're all marines here and but at that time we're all combat marines You know, he said we're marines, you know, none of this some of this religious stuff and so forth and so on But the next day he had us with our Entrenching jews like shovels up on the hill Taking down Just to remind us of that but that's that's the experience and then I came home I read four books Two it was a 15-day trip. I said across the Pacific and two coming back. I read The story asked his crime and punishment and the Blackboard jungle That will cry And the k-mute me You know, you know books I've written in years, I guess. So anyway, I thought that was that What else can I say about oh coming back Going over the Pacific ocean fulfilled its name with beautiful quiet You know a nice sailing coming back or about a day out And I just had just eaten chow Wine chow And suddenly the whole ship started so I almost everything's iron everything's iron Ship is your problem. You know, you're in the Navy and the bulkheads and everything else I go down the stairs. I'm just holding up a light. We hit a typhoon My breakfast came up And I went down down to the hole And I get down to the bottom rack And I couldn't move And so I was they put me on men's duty. I was a corporal But they put me on men's duty We hope the tomb was on men's duty And so they're calling me on the intercom corporal de rosary for the men's tech. I said, you see anyway One morning they come down with this typhoon last about three or four days. I get a light shine on my face And it's a opposite of the day He said you corporal de rosary and yesterday he said that you want to look yeah, haven't you heard? And I said the ten are likely a little he must have seen the greenish Okay And that's when I came back to the states well interesting It was a little anecdote, but there was one guy going to tell you he was in the hopper Every time I went in there had a crawl to get in He was on the hopper every time I went in there. I thought he was dead He just comes Anyway, if you ever hit a typhoon you see stick you want to die, you know, even key if you died or not So what would you like people to know about your service? My service Well You see that's a good question That service I'm gonna tell you know, I was as I said, I was an immature kid I really was and I was uh, I don't know. I took things for granted Uh, I was I wasn't that serious in a way, but when I got when I came home It became very serious and even religious to a certain extent Which I had never really been but I because I was a Catholic reason I was still a Catholic and all that But I know I just I just started thinking about I know what life was really all about and it had a very tough adjustment Uh, I started I in fact after a while I started to drink like the rest of my friends We all we saw who were heavy hitters who were drinking a lot We couldn't find a job at first and we're a little bit envious Of these guys who didn't go in the service and you know, and they had their job They had girlfriends. They had automobiles. She's really nothing and so we started to think about that too and And so then uh, I developed a speech problem I started to speak and I knew what I wanted to say It didn't come out right I said, oh jeez and so I'd be home now. I got a job in the town working as a laborer so I was okay that way but I'd be home alone And the phone ring I'd be terrified Jesus, I can't answer the phone again. You know, I don't know what I said. I don't know what's happening to me And so anyway, I was going with this girl. She was an artist And I was thinking how are we going to break out of this? And so my brother, he went to bc and somewhere all the friends his friends they were at bc They were saying why don't you go over to bc and then you know go to school again? I didn't have any confidence. I said you serious. I took a college course neglecting my studies cut classes Come skip school, you know, that's the kind of kid I was But sorry, so now they'll never take me. So anyway, I was thinking about that I was going with this girl and she was a bc An artist And I said to one day, you know, I said, you know, maybe I'd like to go to school I mean I'm thinking about that. She said you said you were a laborer and you were high school But you'll never go to school. That's what it ticked me up I said, maybe I'll try so I went over to bc And the dean of admission said, you know, you have you took great courses But your courses and put it in put it in mildly He says I'm not what we'd say our adequate for a college student Of course, that's always an effect He said, I'll tell you what I'll do. But the Korean War had only been over three years By that time he said, look, we want to help veterans If you'll take some special courses that were known for algebra, geometry, English and then take the college boards See how you can do we'll give you a shot I said, okay, so I did I want to I went to Newman Prep And it took out them John and they thought I was a mathematical genius But I And I was one of the leaders I was two of us one lay he was in the Air Force and we were any in the instructor device and two two classes and And we he put a problem on the board and we still could do it first and so forth and and we had teams And everything else. But what he didn't understand was I would just regurgitating What I thought I hadn't learned What I had learned it It mind the computer and then when I was in graduate school when I finished all my work I was one of the first my MA And he was literature and show my but I had two more prerequisites One was an oral examination which was going to be about seven or eight months in the future But one was coming up very shortly a french reading exam So I went to the head of the department dr. Mahoney. I had had him as a freshman He said look it. They gave me a french all french program over here in The summer at bc won't you sign up and see how you can do I said, okay. Well, I did I booked my She said if I had studied as hard in high school as I did over there I would have been a dollar petroleum for god's sake. Anyway, I put my brains and the irregular verse started to come back I said, you know, I know this stuff and Well, make it all short when I took the exam. It was on Shakespeare. Thank god. Anyway, I aced it I said, yeah, I should have kept up with it. I said, yeah, and I said thank you And then when I took my oral examination And I was that was a really I could have taken a written one But a friend of mine he had he had taken his MA years before he was a world war two guy He said look at take the oral because if you take the written and you start to write something That's not right.  It took the oral and I did very well Very good. Yeah I mean for high school dropouts, you know And my principal Ralph Duplan, he had been a navy commander in world war two. What a great guy. He was two. He's a tough and he was a math man, but He didn't when I when I first got the job there had that went from high school But he didn't he always said they always said to me in three years He said to me calling me mr. The Rose and so on and I was saying too much to me after that and then when when I got my Whatever you get, you know, you're there for for a full time You saw the call me brave when I got my me He was so proud of me.  The Rose says we see does that made in English literature you want to congratulate him She said I could have called him to the desk, you know, so they go for it Very good. Yeah, that was excellent So I have a couple other questions about your service More about the conflict So yeah, so the korean war Korean war has often been referred to as the forgotten war So so how did you feel? Number one you're serving in korea, but then seeing How the veterans from world war two were treated coming home versus Your time in service Because I think I may have told you You know the times but when I get home No, no one even though I'd been to korea and half the other people didn't know I was in the marine corps My uncle my uncle john. I loved him. He's a great guy He is later.  I felt that terrible for the vietnam guys I mean he attacked those poor guys. That was treasonous, but for us. It was just isolation It was indifference So I I think we felt that yeah, that was the only place we felt really good was down in american legion And before we got there, it was just we were two guys down there and some guys put the depression and all that but When the korea war guys get in there, boy It was standing moment and when you went there you talk about secondhand smoke You worked it almost as uh, you didn't have to light up She just take a deep breath and as one actor said to another one don't any of you guys ever inhale, you know Anyway, but but you're right. Well, you felt that way And it was just I felt I don't know how I felt But it was something I just couldn't couldn't grasp, you know And my family was all concerned about me, you know, they didn't know what to do And it was so patient with me and everything else, but I was very edgy very edgy You know, I could I could like that when I was working for the town one of the foremen He wasn't he wasn't the most Avable guy in the world anyway, but I we stayed away from each other But one day I was working on Pleasant Street by that cemetery there right by the end of my the church Coletta church Anyway, it's a hot day and the wall was there. There's a wall there. I was hitting with a sledgehammer or something Koba he came by he said hey come on Something about he criticized me. I took the crew. You know, happy day. I took that crew by flinging at him Just broke in this time he took off I know but that that's why I was you know instead of saying I'll forget it or which I would do today. Yeah, I wouldn't care You know But those days sorry I couldn't say anything to me much And the drinking and everything but you know, I drank it's interesting. I was not a drinker Thank god, I couldn't keep up with the big boys in the corner But I tried to but when I was drinking I was happy. I was a happy drink. That's why I drank You know, I felt good. So There was some guys just just the opposite. They got a little mean but I just felt good. So that's why I drank but obviously A friend of mine. He was a foot cramp. He was in the second airport over there We talked and once he had been a big drinker too when he came back and everything else He said he was in a bar room one One morning about ten o'clock in the morning he was drinking down the green parrot down and came with somewhere and He just happened to turn around a nice sunny day and this young man With with an astrologer with a little child in it. He just happened to stop to rearrange something a toddler He looked at him and he said look at that guy. He said, you know, I'm 20 to 22 years old He's like, what am I doing in a bar room? He said they just put the drink down and I left and I never went back. That's the way I felt one day.  And that's when I started to work it out, you know Yeah, because at that time you didn't have any real support services available for veterans I didn't know I didn't even what was going on with me. You know, I never I was a good kid Now I can't talk. Yeah, I'm Jesus.  What's going on here?  And that that lasted for about 20 years with her the father He didn't care he's a nice guy, you know I get along with him well, but the mother But there's some friction there, you know So if you could pass along some advice to The younger generation now about serving in the military What would you say to them? Because I don't know what the military is today, but I don't think the marine crew has changed that much But in in structure and technique it has, you know weapons and everything else But I think the core value is there You know love america jesus has suffered a lot of the marine You know have this have this uh, love if you will this appreciation of Being even being in the military, you know defending your country What higher can you go? How high can you go in that other than becoming a religious or something? You know that type of thing But it is a form of It's secular religion almost, you know the marine corps. It's you know a true man said about the two things about the marine corps You know when he when he denigrated them they killed they did die in Korea and he's saying he called them bill hops to the navy and then he said The marine corps has a great Propaganda system and Joseph Stalin and so that may be true. You know, I don't know but But they live up to it. Anyway, that's all I know And I was I was so proud and lee mob and cherub power those actors and stuff with Brian Keith Steve McQueen those guys the George C. Scott They all talk about the marine corps experience. You know, it was it's great. It's true of them Something made them something it gave them a different perspective in life. I know it gave me And I'm sure that's the way when they do when they go through it you have to live through it you know, but There it is And you learn lots of life lessons Did I ever there's no question about that just you know had I Not had that experience. I probably would have broken that they had I had you know, but I had that That back I always knew I had that background, you know And it's another story too about uh When I was uh, oh when I was when I retired I made a mistake of becoming a substitute teacher So I went to probably we got a job over there for a while in uh in uh, Winchester and so I'm uh I go in and so I went to the class and Your homeroom And I'm saying the kids are talking no talking and everything and everything in the line Rise and salute the flag and so forth.  I said, yeah, were you in the army? I said no, I was in the marine corps, but when I was at winter of high school Later on during the Vietnam war a lot of the teachers they slacked off And then they didn't salute the flag or anything else But when I became chairman of the English department, they asked me once in a while if a teacher could be later Wouldn't be in where I take the homeroom I went to that homeroom Bill would ring eight o'clock bill everybody stand they're looking at each other. Who is this guy? Everybody stand Salute the flag of your country. Look I said salute the flag of your country So we salute the flag of our country and they thought I was some sort of idiot, you know But it started that it started in the 60s and You see who it is today, but and one other anecdote of this I was watching you, you know during the 60s terrible or watch the Students burning their rough draft cards and everything.  But when they burned the American flag and waving to be a car flag All right, Jesus I went into the recruiting station again opposite south station. I was about 34 now And I said, um, I was former arena when I rejoined so he looked at me. He said holy I saw about 35 and he says he married. I said yeah have children.   I said is the major in the major ways. He was a head man there He said look at the major's not in so he said but he'll tell you the same thing I will if you have a wife, you have four children You're not going to do any more good, you know, the going you're going at this particular juncture So I said, okay. He said thanks for coming in. I said it's not so far That was it excellent well I want to thank you for your service And and and I really appreciate you Coming in and sharing your service with us


o yeah I'd like to see I'd like to see uh us ensure that that uh the resources like those are given the full attention that they need um with these ARPA funds and I'd like to see us prior um and that we also have a long-term plan for how we're going to care for and um care for maintain and deliver on the promises of these resources to future generations so if part of that were a uh comprehensive plan I'd support that as well um and and candidly I'm a much greater favor of uh supporting those projects not only for yes parks and rec is is a personal passion um and I feel strongly about it and based on what I've heard I think we all do um but I'd I'd advocate that we look at it through the lens of performing that task across um all of the things that we've asked various committee members to deliver for us are there areas where we're falling down right now or perhaps not delivering on the promises as well as we could shore up those areas first and then if there are other things left over uh go about exploring uh incremental asks um I I am nervous about hiring for a specific position such as the uh and in right now I would not support uh hiring for a specific position such as the uh climate zone someone for the for the um the director of climate initiatives simply because I don't know what happens when those ARPA funds run out well then we then have to budget for those and it may pass it may not um it would seem short-sighted to make to spend those funds for a position that could only be around temporarily um when we also when we already have so many other things that have that we promises that we've made to our community that uh that need our attention right now okay okay so the way those ARPA funds could be used for a new um position is what we've been doing uh so far with the fire and the police Tyler is that year after year those funds would come down and so would smooth out the annual increases for a new salary that's how that I would rather see them go to fire police than I would to to climate to that climate director position well you got that again those are those are those are promises that we've made to our community and I I feel their margin yeah and they're they've got it they've got it year after year after year um so just to um I I would agree then with the modern finance system for 150 um I would agree uh with the um questions uh and and some of the items on the um parks and recs so the 100k for irrigation 50k for the basketball court bass baseball dugouts I would hope that would include softball just so it goes both ways okay so then there's 25 for the um catcher and then 105k for the dugout so all together that's 280k for park improvements public art committee cultural plan 50k the open space plan that's an outstanding question that we should dig into but I have that down for 25k the energy committee has a climate action plan implementation for 100k which is not a new position I don't know if we could the the direction I would give is let's really dig into what's their recommendation versus um you know when the rubber hits the road in in um you know upstairs how that would work do we need an extra person to put those hundred thousand dollars you know into into work or not um the 200k for the bike and ped to make sure the heinsberg road can can occur um I would also look at the library's electric van but I'm really curious if there's any federal dollars to that with all that is being offered right now through federal grants right um and thank you for mentioning those grants for small businesses for a city center I remember saying that so many years ago I can't even recall when we're talking about city center and I'm so glad you jogged my memory so I wrote that down yes and that could include childcare could we use a chunk of change for grants to bring in some businesses that just need a little bit of help just like our affordable housing to get their foot in the door and to you know that that they have to pitch you know they have to pitch um and we have an economic development coordinator or I don't know a lot as official title but um you know that potentially I mean I don't know how that would work you know who would vet that request and who would select uh amongst the different um candidates I am also still in favor of the village green um and that would be sort of a large I mean it is a big supported too but that's not a $200,000 thing no it's not a million but I added up what I put down here except for the van and it comes to 830k so that would leave that would leave 1.3 plus k uh 1.3 plus million but you haven't included anything for um the climate plan the $100,000 from the energy committee oh for the person no is that the implementation implementation okay yeah find it here so can I jump in oh please um to me I think this conversation is pretty useful I think what I might suggest is next steps I don't I don't want to squash the conversation if you all want to add more things but we can put together some scenarios for you um either going into the budget season or in advance of the budget season maybe in advance might be a little more helpful um yes and come back to you with okay the kind of a slate of things and you all can comment on that yeah it's a consulting firm it's hiring a consulting firm that's how they recommend and is it specifically for building in thermal because the other two we've done and subsequent implementation plan to create a fully fledged budgeted program this would include identifying funding sources methods and time timelines to obtain funding this plan would be to the level of detail of administrative and overhead cost budget for the city and the salaries of the program management unit and they generally just like all of our committees they do their homework I mean I would assume there are numbers to back this up yeah I do think that so next meeting or the next meeting you'll hear the um the transportation implementation plan the climate action plan that has some of that data in it so I think a hundred thousand I think that was generated you know now almost a year ago and we've gone through working our way to the government ops one and we've gone through the transportation one so that might be really effective funds for the building in thermal sector which we have not six things right now that we all agree on and then subtract that from the total and then and then look at the subtotal after that and then as in future meetings like start whittling them down can we do that now I mean do we only withdraw when they're ready to be spent because that's it's every month gathering change we all support the 1.345 million for the hindsburg bike path and it's 200 now that our share is 200 they got a grant they got a grant well they wanted to submit it as a request oh but but we then they got 800 oh okay well that should take 200 thousand then because I'm already 1.95 million with the 1.345 million so there is more room I can't keep up with yeah but the matrix this is good I think we talked about the matrix months ago and I like the matrix you had the I know we had the matrix but this is the good matrix so I think we should just pick the things we like out of the matrix and then total it up no yes please come to the mic though I think you included the 50 000 for an art did yeah yeah so did you yeah is your is the light on bright yeah push it needs to be bright for me okay uh penny topkins uh chair of the public art committee my only comment was um I think if you could move forward on a couple of things you all agree upon those of us in committees who have work we really can't do without some of this help from your decisions we you know we we can't do some of the things we would like to do right now okay so that's all thank you I think that's yeah that was the point so so 200 000 to pull down 800 000 for the bike path that's this spear street let's go for it oh sacred road okay Tyler you agree you agree okay I agree I think it's a great it's a great GM ROI and uh I think it'd be an amazing addition to the okay 50 000 for arts check is that yes is that okay with you tower well it seems like we have a majority but I mean I don't want to bully over because you're sitting there and not here let's check into federal bucks before the electric vehicle we missed a couple of uh of deadlines already but there might be others um are we copacetic with a million bucks for the village green I mean I don't know where the what that million means in terms of it's a start see my and then it will be collecting collecting uh uh interest rather spend that money on daycare I'm for the village green I'm I'm supportive of the village green because I think that's one of those things that um is transformative and it will also protect people from heat islands effect I really I am in favor we have with the village green do we have do we have any plan beyond and I and I apologize that I I'm truly I'm not saying this to come across as as I don't even know what the word is right now I'm so tired but do we have a plan like is there a plot of land that we've identified is there uh is there or is it just that in is it just to be prepared for the possibility that a plot of land in the city center might come become available that we could jump on to transform into a public green so the action you've taken so far is to allocate funding for us to do to hire a landscape architect urban planner to identify uh parcels that would be good for this purpose in city center we hope to have that work done over the winter um and then I think this money would be the that um procurement money of whatever right we were able to identify and negotiate from there so this is sort of saving it for that eventuality yeah purpose for that purpose and you know if they can't identify a spot I guess you don't have you don't have to spend I guess well what happens what happens if we come if if we I guess I don't forgive me because I don't understand the mechanics of the ARPA dollars but if we say if we allocate one million for that purpose and we get the report back over the winter time and it says you know we estimate that it's going to be uh you know at least 1.2 to actually acquire the land said land and then it's going to be another 800 grand to actually execute on on a uh something that would be of use to the community or becomes it becomes unfeasible what are there any restrictions on what we can then do with that oh I'm just suggesting that we set it aside that we earmark it but just like we did with the housing money we did three different projects but we promised that we were gonna use a million bucks on housing and so we're slowly we've only done two projects so far we got the third one in the works but the money is um I promise to that for that purpose if it doesn't work out we'll find another housing and that's what I see this million is like we're we're setting it aside but we don't know exactly if it's enough but it's a start and even if it's not feasible then we spend it on something else right and the mechanics of the ARPA program allow for that so by December 2020 2024 you have to allocate the dollars so you have to say what how you're going to spend the dollars and then you have to spend them by December 2026 so I I think if we got to the point if you decided to put a million dollars aside for a village green we would ask you sometime next fall to take a very broad vote about how those dollars could be used for village green i.e land acquisition construction amenities you know the the acquisition costs are only a piece of what that project would be so we'd ask you to take a very large very expansive vote on what that could be used for so we could carry those funds through expending them in by 2026 by the end of 2026 that was I am getting not articulated at this point yep that's that's what I meant to say so is Bob not yeah there's still money left yep yes oh well I have an express by view on Farrell Park yet so which is give you the money for Farrell Park well we have the money there's 300,000 left in my calculation how much is left 300 well based on my list based on my list so we got 280 for parks is that right that includes a plan in doing it doesn't include the plan no it's just doing some irrigation basketball court and then the baseball improvements the dugouts and the shortstop enough shortstop the catcher I don't pardon me we have some the peanut gallery who wants to talk is the mic on oh there it is okay just like to I mean I know I came in with an exorbitant proposal based on staff recommendations when you were doing the ARPA asking the committees for ARPA funds but I think that that while that may have seemed a bit outrageous I think when we get through with what may not be a totally perfect survey I can tell you that we're we're going to need to solve having a place for more dogs and that will mean more dog parks and and as well as possibly some other options so as you said Helen 407 in less than a week that's how many responses we got we have three more weeks okay and if you keep in mind the population of dogs in this community there's definitely an unmet need seriously and that's why there's conflict between the people who feel victimized and people who feel they're demonized because they have their dogs off leash so to solve that problem just like all these other problems it's going to take some money and I think it's going to be a modest amount compared to many of these things you're talking about but I think that we do need to think about how we're going to address this we have about 4,000 dogs in this city you know and half of our homes are in multi unit buildings so all the dogs that live in those multi unit buildings have no yards and we have one one acre park and yes we have some places where there's off leash under control but people are actually been wanting to yeah make our parks off on leash requirements everywhere and so anyway I would just ask that you don't spend every penny save some of it let's get through our imperfect survey which is going to give us a lot of great information I think I don't know if Jesse's gone and scanned through comments and everything but I think you'd be surprised to know that um that a lot of dog people with dogs don't want off leash everywhere but they want places to go off leash in dog parks dog parks aren't safe for every dog so we are going to need to be thinking about all of this and it's going to take money and it'd be nice if we didn't have to come back here and look like a nuisance group of people looking for some money to help us solve a problem that to me compared to all of these other things is not an expensive investment and it will go a long way to to basically demonstrating the community that um you know a half of our city is people who have dogs half of our citizens have dogs so yes yes anyway that I won't I won't go on but please just think about putting aside some to solve some of the problems that go on around that are associated with it instead of people feeling bad and being demonized and other people feeling victimized by the fact that um we don't have a solution for for off leash dogs the reason why I hadn't yet come down because I need to have some questions answered so for instance um has more work been done at Farrell Park or not I mean is that Farrell Park those requests are still needed needed that's right there's money set aside but nothing the planning has gone on the design and a lot of work has gone on there but no shovel in the ground is is that because of do is that due to lack of funds that no shovel I would see the I need I need some questions answered but the other question I have is like for instance the O'Brien hillside development they have a dog park right and we have so in a few years they'll have a dog park I have a few years it'll be a half an acre we've got a one one and people don't want to bring their dogs there to the one we have because of the safety issues for the dogs so we need dog parks and we need to I mean I've asked and suggested through planning that we put in some things and possibly start looking at how we could integrate some things in LDRs pu whatever to kind of require things like that but I'm not going to I don't want to go on with all of that but I think dogs even as simple as putting in dog bag stations that's been on the city council's do it list for a couple of years but there is funding for that there's funding there's funding it hits the bottom of the list there is already funding right they just don't happen because they're not on the the work plan they don't work it up high enough and some of them are so innings I mean those dog bag stations yeah the money is there there's enough money to cover contracting out the work if it's something that staff don't feel like they have the capacity right so so something small like that I think we want to request I think some of that Betty we can work through in a different format if it's not okay I'm sorry money if there's money already in the budget to do some of these things there's a question of do we contract out and use some of that money to get it done or do we just keep waiting for DPW to get it up on the list while we continue to add some more stuff to the list so so sorry in the interest of moving as far as we do still have to talk about the FY 25 budget I I guess I would challenge the council to think about there are there are a universe of operations conversations we could have and where our staff is always ready and able to have those conversations these funds are really meant to be transformational for our community so what are the things that you want to do over the next four years and I'm not I ask I'm not asking you to make decisions about that tonight what are those things that the transformational things that you would like us to work on and bring you back recommendations for okay but we should make some decisions because we've been talking about it and I just would question on the parks you know that I was looking at the budget and the revenue and I didn't see any revenue that came in for use of the baseball diamonds and I don't know if the reason nobody pays to use them is because they're in disrepair but I they're they're what they are used a lot say I just drive by a lot and I never see anyone on there except some weekends yeah well no I go down doors at a lot too well it's just okay so but it seems as if maybe we don't have to be so specific with $280,000 for parks and know what it means but can we say tonight that we want to set aside a million bucks for the village green we want to spend $200,000 on the bike and ped thing to match $800,000 we would like to spend $280,000 on parks I'm in favor of that I think we we have to give to our children okay somehow and then 50,000 for the plan for arts and 150,000 for the modern finance system and how about climate action plan implementation okay you consultant the consultant hiring someone as Jesse has been articulating so we can yes so get things done that we talk about than $100,000 yeah I know so what yeah I understand I just why do we do we have we have a climate action plan right so do we have to hire somebody to tell us how to implement it I'm just asking that rhetorically hire somebody to implement it because we don't have staff time right because you have a huge budget to implement core government operations please fire public works why not for those things in the climate action plan that we are doing like converting our fleet to ev we can do that within our job descriptions well we have zeros there's nobody on staff for whose its job description is to go look for federal funding to bring in for people to use in their own homes to improve their building and thermal coverage or to buy electric bikes or to the van for the library for the population or plug in things you know so I mean these funds will will kind of leverage themselves right we hire a person for whatever costs and the hope is they bring in 10x in grants right 10x and yeah so that's a lot of money out there no okay there's a lot no that's I mean it depends how you want to step it down the staff at that level is probably benefits all in is probably about 125,000 for one year so if it's that you want to pick it up for one year and then build it into the FY 25 or build up for six pick up for six months a bill into the FY 25 budget build it for two years a bill into the FY 26 budget that's two years okay this is why I want to bring you a slate right yeah so can you bring us a slate with what we have on this list yes okay I want the electric ride on lawnmower for DPW but there are all kinds of grants to get that if we could just have the employee put in that grant request it's only 35 stick it in there if we don't end up spending it we'll spend it somewhere else in fact I'd like to add two of those lawn mowers so the speed that they need well we have it with these six things two fours we haven't spent all of the money that's right so we can keep near the top of the list those electric mowers if that's how much did you put in for the climate action plan Jesse 125 125 times two and a half years two and a half years yeah oops sorry so does that is that 125 times 2.5 that's how you put it okay oh okay so come back with the grid that shows us the the specifics but this seems to be we copacetic here you look a little worried Tyler are you voting do you agree on all of these things or are we going to put them into a matrix we're going to put them into a matrix but this is what we're saying there seems to be consensus about or support we can always change it because it's not a hard and fast okay I agree with everything I'd like more detail on the climate action plan implementation yeah we need more detail on a number of things yeah Lisa do you have a question please come to the mic please come to the mic we'll get more bites at this apple so but say your piece please so I'm questioning why we want to maybe allocate a hundred thousand dollars for a climate action consultant I mean you've already got staff person it's not a consultant a staff person uh-huh but there's going to be a lot of private companies out there that businesses and developers can hire I don't understand what I would be paying for that and a landscape architect how much are you looking at to develop a town square I mean doesn't kind of such a park that now well the council has at least many on the council not or the majority on the council not all feel that one of the things that we heard very strongly when we were planning for the new city center was the concept of a green where you could have events that would draw people there and not closing off the street to have an event and that it's it's different than the beautiful goose park or duck park they're geese right the goose park because that you wouldn't have an event there I mean you know you wander around it's gorgeous and it's a wonderful asset but it also was a stormwater retention pond retention pond too so it has a use so that's what this village concept of this village square is or village green and the consultant or the is I mean they're not on staff they would come back with a plan yeah how much are they gonna be charging but it's like you have red rex park right right behind your house whereas the people who live in this part of town they don't have that amenity right outside their house I understand that it's the cost of some of these consultants gets a little ridiculous but is that it could with what they charge I mean can't we go out here and pick out a nice plot wasn't a lot though was 35,000 I don't know that's why I was curious yeah I don't know the consultants that we just hired to do I don't know one of the things in I can't remember which one it was the engineering contract I mean they had a price list and you know some of the people paid 380 bucks an hour I mean that's a lot of money but that's that's a lot of going that's the going rate I wish I made that kind of money well I don't either but anyway that's but it seems like you know we've got a lot of smart people in the city it seems like we could go out and pick a spot here in city center I mean how much is left that could be used for a park with all these apartment buildings that are going in right now you know yeah you know that way it's not free well just had to bring that's okay I appreciate your perspective so are we ready to move on bringing you asleep okay thank you and I appreciate all the comments I don't mean to sound snippy I'm sorry if I did um so now we're on to item 11 the FY 25 budget projections and setting our budget goals last item guys I want to talk a long time about the dog survey can you spend a few minutes on that yeah that's what we have said right few minutes yeah we can Martha I think you better talk yeah I think before we talked about the budget presentation there was a question about microphone while we did recently replace this the microphone's expense cost that is in the war and it's not for this it is for a fire department and Steve would like to explain that this is your question about microphones on the board way back let's rewind a few hours they are remember back that far question on on it is on yeah there was a question about microphone expense I think it was $2,500 to $2,600 and so it was for five speaker microphones so on our face piece that we wear when we breathe out of our scba mask mask there's a speaker mic that's on the side of it that projects your voice then allows you to hear better or so the other person can hear you speak when you have your face piece on and we bought five of those for they break occasionally and then obviously we had some new people as well if you speak into the mic you don't need them okay yep just wanted to correct that so moving on to FY 25 projection same far away but really close so in the memo provided we so as we prepared to put together the FY 25 budget last last council meeting you approve the budget schedule and the leadership team is now starting to put the budget together that will be coming to you shortly and in the as we are thinking about the numbers that will be going into the budget itself three main things not really the only one but there could be few one other just how do we keep up with the gross in the city and the and be able to invest in the car municipal services the other thing that came to mind was how do we bridge the gap between maintaining cities facilities and the tax rate itself and the other thing as related to a lot of the conversation that just happened how do we bridge the gap between or how do we prioritize other priorities that you have approved as council and and that may come up for the city and in order to do that we provided you with where we are currently in FY 24 budget and where the tax rate has been in the past and what the past budgets have been in the increases in the past five years so there are chats in there for FY 24 budgets and also chats for FY 19 through 24 for tax rate and budget itself so meet that is how so how did we come up with some of the fixed causes that we are considering as we put the budget together some of the things that has to be paid or have to be budgeted in order to maintain and provide services as a city and looking at those are including what what what are our revenue sources and the main revenue source for this are the profiteer taxes so the options provided are normally we budget estimate one percent increase in the grant list and what it would mean to increase the current tax rate by one percent to three percent and five percent those numbers are provided in the memo and for the expenses the main things are the salaries and wages those are fixed costs and the rates are fixed rate as well as agreed to part the CBS and the two of the current cities unions settled FY 25 budgets when the last contracts was signed in 2022 and there was a bracket into what the increases would be for FY 25 and they were also settled based on what the CPI rates would be and the CPI rate for the month of august 12 month came up was published this month and it is at 2.8 so two of the cities uh CBS said how public works and police departments are currently projected at 2.8 which is what the CPI is of fire departments uh negotiations are currently underway we don't know what those rates would be settled at that is the projection in the salaries and also in the salaries last year the city council you guys considered approving a two-year plan and that two-year plan is also affected into our current projections and that two-year plan includes standing up second emblem and the second emblem was budgeted to be starting half year this year so we've included a hundred percent fifty percent that was not budgeted in 2014 is included in the current projections and the approved uh diptychip that was just one in today was is now fully embedded into the budget and other uh staff that were considered last year uh with the operating budget we are uh just for the budget purposes assuming that we everything will be level level funded except for a few items that are contract based some of those are insured and we took what the insurance assume or just assume what the insurance increases would be and increased our current rates and for the CIP capital projects we are taking the amount that was approved last year because it was amended by the city council and it was a 10-year plan so second year of last year's CIP is what is currently in our projection and in the CIP too so in FY 23 uh the council approved using alpha fund and also approved last year with FY 24 a step down approach to avoid uh full uh be clipped into the general fund budget so we are also proposing that 50 percent of what was approved in FY 23 to be funded with alpha fund so that is also added out and included in the projection can i ask a question on that just to understand the um the the graph or whatever you call this thing um so in FY 25 we're using $361,000 of alpha funds which is 50 percent of the offset why oh if you add that with 180,000 you get the yeah so that 541 so why is it when you just spend 25 percent of alpha and FY 26 the the general fund impact is only 180,000 because it's already built into the budget yeah it's building to tax capacity building back up the oh so you're using tax capacity to okay to offset the difference yes thank you sometimes i have to think out loud so that is where our expenses are in the projection and the revenues based on the general fund and given that to at the end we also so the current impact based on those that is without the leadership team request right now and also some of the expenses that might come up that will actually be put into the budget we are projecting a 5.85 percent increase on the current tax rate to just implement or for the current projection that we currently have and that's not just the actual it might change as the budget is put together and brought to you in December and so we also highlight the current investment that were made last year by the city council with the FY 24 budget in there and those involved investing in the fire and EMS services fire ship and the police ship as well could attach to that those have have proven positive impact within those departments the amount of over time that we saw last year and in the past is currently down a lot down in the current payrolls and that is because of the investment that has been made in the last two years and the other investment that is not filled is the policy and data analysis GIS GIS is a position that is really important i think we've all talked about data driven decisions and we are waiting that position would be filled once filled it would prove to be it will help the leadership team the citywide be able to make decisions and bring you data that you've been asking for so as we go in the final questions that you might need to be thinking about or include some or any new initiative that you would like us to consider as we go talk to the leadership team when they're putting the budget together and also if you can also advise us on your current or tax rate goal for FY 25 we've given you scenarios and you like to get your guidelines on what we should be working with as we put the budget together and the last one is the climate action plan i know we've talked about it a lot and i don't think we need more guidelines or can just add to what you've talked about so just to underline a few points that martha made these are really early projections you know we are only two months into the fiscal year so some of these numbers are solid as martha said the wage wage numbers some are not solid and the leadership team hasn't submitted yet um there are also room where we will make some changes in projection so for example testing the water with you guys for a minute traditionally we can we budget revenues very conservatively so we budget for example one percent on the grand list per growth um that results in an increased revenue increased tax capacity um we have been averaging 1.2 percent a year for the last 12 years so we could up that that projection so there are places like that where we may be able to counterbalance other expenses so i think as martha said the key questions for you are your reaction to this your tax rate goals are there new things you want us to consider as we're building this budget um or flip side of that is also always are there things you want us to cut to fund other things or keep going andrew so jesse we've talked about this before um in every organization inefficiencies develop and i'm not saying our organization is inefficient i have no idea what i do know is i go through the list of items and expenses and i personally have no clue whether or not those amounts are the right amounts whether we're overpaying underpaying whether we're being efficient not efficient and the way big organizations typically address that lack of transparency is by saying to each civilization you need to do more with less right deliver the same service but find three percent five percent of things and challenge yourself to figure out where you can cut expenses three or five percent to deliver the same service you know dive in and figure out where your inefficiencies are because every organization has them i guarantee we have some and so i would challenge you to do that to figure out where our inefficiencies are and to see if we could um you know skinny down a bit the expense side of this ledger but deliver the same services i think that's a good challenge i know that they've been challenged to do that in the past so i'll just give credit to try staff but we obviously need to make that a challenge every budget year um and i in addition to what andrew said um clearly as we face as the city the challenges that are going to be coming with the coming years um expenses are going to go up all the way around and so how can we as a city make sure that there isn't a disparity growing between those who can afford them and those they're fewer and fewer on the other end hanging on until they can't hang on anymore and looking for ways to keep their house or keep their whatever so in addition to looking for ways to decrease inefficiencies how can we look at the utility rate how can we look at various rate structures that ensure that those costs of living here are more equitably distributed and so we did go through that exercise with utilities um we're still going to go through that exercise with utilities are there other things that we should be looking at so that people like barb explained who live on a fixed income as they get closer and closer and closer to the zero in their bank account you know where they say the city's looking out for me because okay this is increasing but this is decreasing and so i'm going to be able to make it again for you know however long um we have to be mindful of that so that's where and and you know i am all for capitalism the capitalism that takes into account um that the society has benefited um all of us um some have been a little bit more privileged or perhaps a lot more privileged than others um but in that regard that doesn't mean that only those who've been privileged have helped the privileged those who are less privileged have also helped the privileged so we have services in place um that a lot of people contribute to they don't earn necessarily a lot of money um and so we just have to all be in it together and i i i really want to you know there's a there's a way to do capitalism that is just humane and i really want to look for for that sweet spot in capitalism so um in past years we set targets of the two to three percent increase right and that went on for a few years right before the pandemic um interest rates were low inflation was low right relatively and then bang pandemic happened and so now we're looking at five percent type you know in that range five to six percent which is what this is right because of i think um the effects of inflation on requests for colas and you know in new contracts for you know fire and public safety and and other unions so um i i would say that between this 25 percent of the budget of the total tax bill to the taxpayer the other 70 percent and 75 is education right on top of what we're perceiving as some really severe utility rate increases right we i i want to target in the low five if possible as much and and do what we can and if there are things that there were aiming for that are not going to be able to be you know acquired or done uh we're going to have to put them off and those might be some more aspirational things as opposed to you know concrete things that we need right now so sorry just a number of years ago when i was first on the council um the council asked the city to cut three percent and that's the budget that we voted on in the following year because of the impact of those cuts we had to go back up like eight percent to just get to ground zero so i think i mean i appreciate that there's always um you know inefficiencies that may or may not relate to dollars some of it maybe that some people work more efficiently than others or take a longer amount of time or a shorter amount of time and that's and there's a a cost associated with that it takes you twice as long to do what you know your neighbor takes then the city doesn't get done as much or that department you know so um i just i think we have to be careful in setting goals percentage goals that are really unrealistic i don't think it's a bad um process to ask every department to say state government does it all the time what would your budget look like what would the services look like if you reduced your expenditures by x amount and then you have then you can look at it and say oh it's worth it or it's not so i don't know what kind of work that would require for so maybe not until you get your new uh finance system then you could just push a button right so i think steven i both want to respond to this i also know we haven't heard from tyler yet so i just want to give him tyler do you do you want him to come before i mean it's up to you helen i tyler would you like to speak sure go i would i'd i'd kind of i'd like to echo your comments helen i'd you know i admittedly i'm not um i don't have nearly the uh experience in in public service that you do but i have i have managed a pnl or two and i have managed some humbly managed some some large budgets before and um i with all due respect to councilor chalek that's when budgets are cut it's not a question of it's it's i've never been privy to a budget cut that has said find it find the same way to do the exact same amount with that you're doing now with four percent less there's always been trade-offs and um and it's i think it's unrealistic to assume that and i would not be comfortable giving the direction to just say find a way to do the exact same provide the exact same services that you provide now with just four percent less or an x percent less what i think is would be better direction and i'd be more comfortable doing is something closer to what helen has said which is a let's provide specific guidance of the areas where we would feel feel comfortable cutting or uh and if we don't if we lack that guidance let's get a better sense as to what that might look like because uh if we because we lack those insights let's again a better sense as to what that would look like by um asking departments to give us um within the city to give us a sense as to how that might play out um my gut is that with uh soaring inflation costs and the cost the price of everything increasing that even a very modest haircut um would yield um would would would would surprise us with with what the responses would be um but i i don't i don't think anyone responds well um let alone public servants to figure it out and i i wouldn't be comfortable giving that kind of guidance okay thank you so steve or i would just offer as someone who's had to do that exercise quite frequently in my former occupation that we take our business is very much people centered almost all of our departments 90 plus percent of each of our budgets are people centric we can't reduce those numbers without cutting people and that's okay if that's what you want us to do um if you want an exercise to be reduce your operational expenses by x dollars what does that look like that's a little bit easier to do because anything else is you just in order to get that because so much of the budget is people and their their expenses you have to look at cutting people so i would just encourage you if you want us to do that exercise to look at it just on the um non-personnel expense side but i of the front of the manager i agree with everything steve say i would just take it one step further to say i don't think it's a we can do the exercise if you would like but i'm not sure it's an effective exercise because we are so people centered to do that department by department um because what does it mean to reduce you know 30 40 police officers to 39 police officers that's that's what you're going to get and you're going to whittle away services and road services i think if you really want to cut the budget five percent tell us what to eliminate let's eliminate a book of business and that will get us there much more quickly than cut then by um peeling it away what are the things hangnails ripping out the hangnail so i think if that's what you want us to explore we can come back to you and say to reduce the budget five percent here's the service area we would cut to me that's a much more effective way to lower our budget if we really want to lower our budget oh and no sorry one other thing unrelated to the staffing costs because i've heard several people say that's about utility rates i think we really missed an opportunity and tom and i have talked about it and we will re reframe this when we come back to you with utility rates when we presented that to you all to talk about that you were hearing that not necessarily just as the city council but also the water and sewer board of the city i.e. how we make up the revenue we need to run a system the the revenue we the operations cost as we do the utility rate study the operations cost of the utilities isn't changing how the costs how those costs are spread around the users is it is changing potentially so while while it's true that some users may pay more other users will pay less it's kind of like a reappraisal right like the number utility rates aren't increasing we're not collecting additional revenue we're collecting the same amount of revenue we're just figuring out how to equitably divide it got it so i just want to i know there was the the headline in the other paper about utility rates going up and it's not it might have that impact for some but it will have the opposite impact for others as we more equitably divide up the costs i don't understand i don't follow because they have a huge amount of money to raise the bond issue is a different okay okay yeah so and i didn't say cut by five percent i was just saying i was wanting to target yeah the five percent increase no five percent increase right because worst case between our budget right and the perceived utility budgets and then whatever the school comes out with the voters could just say no and that's their prerogative if they say no then we go back to them you know to the drawing board and then you start cutting because you you have to put a number in front of them that is is that they don't like and the vote for us so maybe you reallocate the arsenal of money so it's like it's it's our responsibility to put the best budget out there that we think that they'll pass right yeah that meets all the requirements for staffing and capital but also here any new initiatives or programs so clearly we talked about the climate action plan implementation um i mean that's right new initiative um but can i get back your point a second because you were specifically talking about the the financial warrants page and all the little items you know and if you sort it from lowest to highest right you see a lot of books in there from the ingram book services and you see um you know chemicals for for the wastewater treatment plant and you know you see the police department's uh you know Comcast bill and and green mountain powers charges for the uh you know the street lights and so so i i mean i look at those really closely and i'm looking for ones that surprise me and then you hear me ask about them right but the the little if you when i look at them when i i'm looking for you know outliers that don't make any sense you know because i think a lot of eyes on but those expenditures that you see there don't include all the salaries that's the other big number and that you know those those numbers except for the really big numbers that that are the highest ones that represent blocks of money to was it the blue you know the medical you know pension fund or whatever those so to me those numbers they're not that they're trivial but they're they're not really that item that you would worry about too much it's just to make my point again um with all due respect tyler when i was in business i was asked regularly to do the same with us cut your budget five percent my manager does not know what my budget numbers are like i can't tell what these numbers are i know what the numbers are and i i i know how to do it um and it may well be that you know all these numbers are great and there's nothing to cut but i guess i would empower the staff to look at their numbers and determine whether maybe these are maybe that maybe at the end of the day all these are add up to not much because salaries is the biggest thing but to me it's a good exercise to look at these numbers to figure out are we doing it efficiently are the things that don't make sense or things we should do different things we don't need to buy any more can we buy them can we source them differently right challenge people to look at their numbers to see if we can do things more efficiently there's nothing wrong with that and i agree and and i i also hear tyler because i work in a world where we do the same job with many fewer people so i totally understand where tyler's coming from on that and where steve and jesse are coming from that some point something's going to give and if it's morale then the whole ship goes down so you have to really really watch it and i i do think it's a good point andrew and i do think it's um it is it gives us some ammunition to go back to the department heads and have those conversations so i think it's a good guidance um and also good guidance to say we want to not erode services we want to keep providing quality services and we want a budget that will pass um right and we want to think about investing in well we're not i think aiming for um staff reduction i mean we're adding staff right we have scrimped and saved to get more police and more fire right you know i don't think we want to go backward right with that so so it is those other pieces so does that give you i mean is everyone is everyone copacetic with the five percent i mean i'd love to target target slightly less honestly three or four but let's see how it comes out i don't think we'll ever get to three i i think that's i think we'll never get to five next year five like 10 over two years it's it's a lot it's a lot right well when we figure out a way for everybody to pay their fair share on taxes maybe municipalities will see three percent again i don't know well i guess i just philosophically i have a really hard time with asking a look it'll pay out it'll it'll play out in the voting booth but i've philosophically have a really hard time asking if it's an exploratory exercise okay that's fine but giving giving guidance that we should be cutting our budget five percent um and we're not talking about cutting it we're talking about limiting the increase to five percent that's the guidance we're giving um and andrew was saying could you get it closer to only a four percent increase okay okay it's not a cut but so we're doing we're talking about doing that in the in the face of of the uh the greatest inflation increase in inflation that we've seen in the last 40 years um so it's still why it still winds up being a budget haircut um when you net it out i guess i i struggle with we're doing that but then we're also going to be burdening taxpayers we're committing to burdening taxpayers with um funding the climate action plan and i it's not that i don't support the climate action plan but i don't support it at the expense of city services that we've promised our citizens and i just want to be very real about that and i want to be really really very clear about that um and i think we should be prepared to answer for that as well that if that is the guidance that we're given giving that's that's the message that we're sending and i i don't know that that's i don't i don't entirely feel comfortable with that and i don't know that that the constituents that i've spoken with i don't know that they will either well i think that's always the ultimate question when you put together a budget and if the um council believes that investing in the climate action plan because of the really important dividends down the line like an earth that's you know still has is livable um that's a question and this budget increase of whatever it is five percent incorporates those expenditures then we are asking the public is that a value you share do you want to is it worth it to you and they can very well say no right and then we'll have to rethink that but at this point in time i'm feeling that um spending some money on um dealing with climate change and change you know changing the metric so life is a you know our city and the state and the country is in the world is a easier place to live in or more um is is important enough to include in your budget the money we think that's needed and then let the public um decide and i think the public has in the last i think even just the last year has it seems you know unless maybe you live in texas um have embraced climate change as a reality and that we can't just ignore it so this is a personal step but i also want to be very practical i want to be very practical and realistic about what we what we what we can realistically change and number one as as a as a city in the grand scheme of things and number two particularly when we're talking about doing those at the expense of potentially at the expense of city services and number three also when we're looking at very large bills that are going to be coming due over the course of the next seven to ten years bills involving schooling bills involving uh safety security and policing um and and bills bills regarding infrastructure so um i just i just want to make sure that we as a council are i just want to make sure that we as a council are are communicating to the public and that we and not just communicating because it's not optics but that we are taking all those things into account as we're uh giving this guidance um because i i i i don't want us to come across and it's not for optics sake but i it's it's it's because i you know i want our community to believe in us i don't want us to come across as tone deaf and um for all the good that is happening in our community there are some people who are apprehensive to megan's point earlier that they are struggling to make ends meet um and i've very recently been one of them and uh you know as passionate as i am about the environment not to the same degree that andre is um admittedly i worry first about whether or not we have a lot enough police in the streets i worry first about whether or not i'm going to be able to afford my tax bill and i worry first about whether or not my kids are going to have the same educational experience or better that i had growing up in this community and those those are the things that come across my plate first and i um when there's very little money to go around i just i just want to make sure that we're not coming across as tone deaf and um for all of our sakes okay well let's see how the numbers come out um something to keep in mind tyler i know is someone who's eaten potatoes for months and seen my bank account go nearly to zero when i was paying the first year of college for my older son with my husband um you have to plan for those long-term expenses right um that are going to come in the future and we know it's been said by economists throughout the world that we have to start incrementally increasing in terms of our investment in climate mitigation now because if we don't the the price tag later on is going to be colossal so those will be your kids paying that price tag right so we have to think about yes we want to take care of our kids today but we also want to take care of our kids 20 years from now 30 years from now and as soon as 2035 to be quite honest so i i just i really you know i i think that while we invest in that future for our kids looking for how we can bring costs in line with people's ability to pay through other you know other levers looking at utility rates looking at other fees looking at and keeping i agree with you keeping that sense of security i've heard that from people in our community as well that we are so grateful the police is there but our sense of security is rattled right now right and so i don't see anybody on this board saying we need to reduce the number of police officers whatsoever but i think we also should be very happy that the braver and apartments for instance and that our city police chief and city manager have been really keen on when we have people who are in need of social services that we put them in a housing situation where they have access to those social services and that's what the braver and apartments does right so we have to think we have to think in that way that those investments truly lead to success and and i i feel confident that people know that and climate mitigation is just one of those things where i walk the hair fall planning will lead to down the road believe me it will lead to a much smoother landing and we're going to land it's not avoidable now but a smoother landing right just 30 seconds the way i think about it it's the environmental debt that we're incurring yeah and it's hard to see it right because it's not right as um tangible as other debts but it's there and growing and we need to start paying down that debt or it's going to grow to a point where our kids can't afford it that's right that's the way i think about it yeah that's right okay so we've given you the guidance you need this was super helpful conversation thank you okay thank you all right other business very short business some questions about the um dog survey you addressed um i thought well i tried to so here's a question about substance and process let me do substance first um when the survey said that it said that um south burlington's orbit urns is a prohibit um dogs off leash are impossible to enforce i don't read our ordinance as prohibiting dogs being off leash our ordinance says that the dog has to be in control either by leash core chain or otherwise so am i am i wrong about that because i'm in hubbard park right it says your dog has to be in voice control or on leash so i guess i have a question about the substance of the survey the foundation for it whether it's a correct predicate or not that that dogs have to be on leash in our city i don't read the ordinance is saying that it does it has been our parks well it says either by leash core chain or otherwise within control that's what it says well that's attached to their owners no that's all it says holly has said before that each park right had its own rules was either by leash or by leash or right and so harvard says by voice explicitly um red rock says by leash and so i assumed that this means both or the harvard wouldn't be able to say that and someone's making decision park by park you know whether it's a more stringent rule or less stringent rule but but in any but if i'm right about all that the survey is kind of misplaced because it's really trying to be a predicate well i think it was just trying to elicit some data because when the dog committee and we talked about dog parks there was a lot of vocal comments and written comments about dogs need to be leash because i'm afraid i don't want to have my dog attacked i don't want my kid attacked if they're under voice control that's one thing but then all of a sudden they aren't and they're an animal so there was there is an expectation that everyone's going to control their dog um and that's what you expect so i think the the dog committee was trying to understand if that's sort of the world's expectation but you don't go along with it because you think your dog can run free and be under your voice control and no problem um we wanted they you know we wanted to try to understand that and so how do you protect everyone but also provide maybe the most um generous way to have people utilize the parks with their dogs the way they want and maybe we can't and then the flip side was well people were saying why do we have this ordinance that says this is the requirement and then when it's not followed it's not enforced well we have a lot of ordinances like that right so i think that the dog committee is really trying to find so can we find some way to make it safe for everyone and maybe that might mean one dog park on tuesdays or something allows dogs to run free and if you're afraid of dogs you don't go there because you know that you might run into a dog off leash or whatever you know the requirements are or how they work it out or maybe you know they'll say what we need is a dog park that allows dogs to run free it's an area i don't i don't know but they're just looking for information so i get all that again i just i i personally don't know the state of law i think the way this was presented is wrong and so because people wrong impression about what our law is i'd like to understand that honestly myself what our law is um because it seems to be different park by park um and then just about process i do think that because this went out city why this signs all over the city it's probably something we should have talked about as a council before it went out well did we talk about the charter committee did yeah we did talk about the questions we looked at the we didn't look at the thing but you knew that it was coming out i reported to you all well then that's my fault because i knew this was coming out and i didn't report back but i personally i'm not interested in looking at every single survey that someone puts out to generate information because they're never going to be perfect because we're not survey creators and even when we had professionals do it you come back with oh darn why didn't we ask this question because it would have been really helpful and then all of a sudden you have a 35 minute survey i would have asked this basic question about what our law is because that kind of then feeds into a question we should be asking so anyways and so they learned that i mean i think to some degree you know we we rely on our volunteers and they are there to gather information and we are here to vet it and so we're vetting it right now this is initial vetting and you know let them gather the information i i tend to agree with helen that we cannot micromanage our committees and they wouldn't want to be micromanaged but i i think um you know there could have been something at the top of the survey um this survey is intended for for for um dog owners who walk their dogs off leash something because for me i was like this is for the whole city and there's no there's no choice for me there there's just absolutely no choice and and so if they had kind of said you know it's not just self selection it's actually we are pinpointing those those dog owners but yeah people didn't answer it that way though they didn't restrict themselves well but yes i mean we can you can always make it better for sure i think that's where the sense of anger came from from some of the you know and some of the feedback they received yeah but that's okay i mean i'm not here to to browbeat anybody we're we're this is not a perfect system this is called communication and nothing is perfect about communication so if we want to spend hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars on communications you know consultants we'll still get so who becoming sb nine years later if i could just add a few cents it's one i think i think we all need to be a little gentle with ourselves i didn't know this was coming out either but also we don't have a parks and rec director right now so i think there are just some we we're trying not to i am trying not to stop progress and let things go even though we are down a key staff in this area in this area um and we do really rely on our committees to do a lot you know i'm thinking like you guys haven't heard anything about the energy fair that's happening and we're putting a ton of staff time and resources for December 30 so like what if we don't tell us if there's a structural problem with how the committees are are working like how the information flow between committees is working between the council and staff and the committees let's have that structural conversation i don't think we should be too hard on ourselves about council liaison staff liaison or committee volunteers right now yeah the data you'll get to decide what you want to do right yeah exactly i don't know i am happy to have holly call you talk to you right right okay so is there any other business tyler you did you want to weigh in or are you ready for bed okay so i went entertain motion to adjourn so moved and a second second all in favor all right thank you thank you thank you we did get a lot done tonight