Okay, hello and welcome back to the AWS startup showcase. I'm John Furrier, host. This is the hero panel, the AWS heroes. These are folks that have a lot of experience in open source, having fun building great projects and commercializing the value and best practices of open source innovation. We've got some great guests here, Liz Rice, Liz Rice, Chief open source officer, ISO Valen, CUBE alumna, great to see you. Brian Laro, who's a co-founder and CTO of begin.com. Erica Windich, who's an architect for develop experience, AWS hero, also CUBE alumni. Casey Lee, CTO gaggle, doing some great stuff in EdTech. Great collection of experts and experience, folks doing some fun stuff. Welcome to this conversation, this CUBE panel. Hi. Thanks for having us. Let's go down the line. I don't normally do this, but since we're remote and we have such great guests, go down the line and talk about why open source is important to you guys. What projects are you currently working on and what's the coolest thing going on there? Liz, we'll start with you. Okay, so I am very involved in the world of cloud native. I'm the chair of the technical oversight committee for the cloud native computing foundation. So that means I get to see a lot of what's going on across a very broad range of cloud native projects. More specifically ISO Valen, I focused on Cillium, which is, it's based on a technology called EBPF. That is to me, probably the most exciting technology right now. And then finally, I'm also involved in an organization called Open UK, which is really pushing for more use of open technologies here in the United Kingdom. So kind of spread around lots of different projects. And I'm in a really fortunate position, I think, to see what's happening with lots of projects and also the commercialization of lots of projects. Awesome, Brian, what project are you working on? Working on a project these days called architect. It's an open source project built on top of AWS SAM. It adds a lot of sugar and terseness to the SAM experience. It just makes it a lot easier to work with and get started. AWS can be a little bit intimidating to people at times and the open source community is stepping up to make some of that bond ramp a little bit easier. And I'm also an Apache member. I keep a hairy eyeball on what's going on in that reality all the time. And I've been doing this open source thing for quite a while. Yeah, I love it. It's a great thing, it's real science. We get to verify each other's work and we get to expand and build on human knowledge. So it's a huge honor to just even be able to do that and I feel stoked to be here. So thanks for having me. Awesome, yeah, I totally agree. Erica, what's your current situation going on here? What's happening? Sure, so I am currently working on developer experience of a number of open source SDKs and CLI components from my current employer. And previously, recently I left New Relic where I was working on integrating with open telemetry as well as a number of other things. Before that I was a maintainer of Docker and of OpenStack. So I've been in this game for a while as well. And I tend to just put my fingers in a lot of little pies anywhere from DVD players 20 years ago to a lot of this open telemetry and monitoring and various SDKs and developer tools is kind of where Docker and OpenStack and the SDKs that I work on now all very much focusing on developer as the user. You're always on the wave, Kate, I was on the wave, Erica, great stuff. Casey, what's going on with you? You got some great ad text happening. What's happening with you? Yeah, sure. The primary open source project that I'm contributing to right now is Act. This is a tool I created a couple of years back when GitHub Actions first came out. And my motivation there was I'm just impatient and that whole commit push wait time where you're testing out your pipelines is painful. And so I wanted to build a tool that allowed developers to test out their GitHub Action workflows locally. And so this tool uses Docker containers to emulate the GitHub Action environment and gives you fast feedback on those workflows that you're building. A lot of innovation happening at GitHub. And so we're just trying to keep up and continue to replicate those new features functionalities in the local runner. And the biggest challenge I've had with this project is just keeping up with the community. We just passed 20,000 stars and it'd be, it's a normal week to get like 10 PRs. So I super excited to announce just yesterday, actually I invited four of the most active contributors to help me with maintaining the project. And so this is kind of like a big deal for me letting the project go and bringing other people in to help lead it. So yeah, huge shout out to those folks that have been helping with driving that project. So looking forward to what's next for it. Great, well make sure the SiliconANGLE writers catch that quote there. Great call out. All right, let's start, Ron. You made me realize when you mentioned the patching that you've been kind of watching all the stuff going on. Brings up the question of the evolution of open source and the commercialization trends have been very interesting these days. Just seeing cloud scale really impact also with the growth of code. And Liz, if you remember, the Linux Foundation keeps making projections and they keep blowing past them every year on more and more code and more and more entrance coming in, not just individuals, corporations. So you're starting to see the, Netflix donates some something.  There's a lot of entrepreneurial activity that's creating this new abstraction layers, new platforms, not just tools. So you start to see kind of a new kick up trajectory with open source. You guys want to comment on this because this is going to impact how fast the enterprise will see value here. I think a really great example of that is a project called Backstage that's just come out of Spotify. And it's going through the incubation process at the CNCF. And that's kind of why it's front of mind for me right now, because I've been working on the due diligence for that. And the reason why I thought it was interesting in relation to your question is it spun out of Spotify. It's fully open source. They have a ton of different enterprises using it as this developer portal, but they're starting to see some startups emerging, offering like a hosted managed version of Backstage or offering services around Backstage or offering commercial plugins into Backstage. And I think it's really fascinating to see those ecosystems building up around a project and different ways that people can. I'm a big believer you cannot sell the open source code, but you can sell other things that create value around open source projects. So that's really exciting to see. Great point. Anyone else want to weigh in and react to that? Because it's the new model. It's not the old way. I mean, I remember when I was in college, we had the pirate software. It was open source wasn't around. Like you had to kind of deal it under the table. Now it's free. But I mean, the old way was you had to convince the enterprise. Like you got to harden it, to build the community and the community managed the quality of the code. And then you had to build the company to make sure they could support it. Now the companies are actually involved in it, right? And then new startups are forming faster and the proof points are shorter and highly accelerated for that. I mean, it's a whole new. It's a Cambrian explosion. And it's great. You know, it's one of those things that it's challenging for the new developers because they come in and they're like, whoa, what is all this stuff that I'm supposed to figure out? And there's no right answer. And there's no wrong answer. There's just tons of it. And I think that there's a desire for us to have one sort of like well-known, trod happy path, but how these were a lot better with the more diverse community with lots of options, with lots of ways to approach these problems. And I think it's just great. The challenge that we have with all these options and all these Cambrian explosion of projects and all these competing ideas, right now the sustainability is a tricky question to answer. We know that there's a commercialization aspect that helps us fund these projects, but how we compose the open versus the commercial source is still a bit of a tricky question and the tough one for a lot of folks. Yeah, Rika, can you chime in on that for a second? I want to get your angle on that, this experience and all this code and I'm a new person, I'm an existing person. Do I get like a blue check mark? Mark, I'm verified. What's code?  Like, well, how do you navigate? Yeah, I think this has been something that's been happening for a while. I mean, back in the early OpenStack days, 2010 for instance, Rackspace, OpenSourcing, OpenStack and Anso Labs and so forth. And then trying, having all these companies forming and creating startups around this. I started at a company called Cloud Scaling back in late 2010 and we had some competitors such as Piston and so forth where a lot of the Anso Labs people went. But then the real winners, I think from OpenStack ended up being the enterprises that jumped in. We had Red Hat in particular as well as HP and IBM jumping in and investing in OpenStack and really proving out a lot of, and not that it was the first time, but this is when we started seeing billions of dollars pouring into open source projects and open source foundations, such as the OpenStack Foundation, which preceded a lot of the things that we now see with the Linux Foundation, which was then created a little bit later. And at the same time, I'm also reflecting a little bit what Brian said, because there are projects that don't get funded, that don't get the same attention, but they're also getting used quite significantly. Things like Log4J really bringing this to the spotlight in terms of projects that are used everywhere by everything with significant outsize impacts on the industry that are not getting funded, that aren't flashy enough, that aren't exciting enough because it's just logging, but the vulnerability in it brings everything and everybody down and has possibly billions of dollars of impact to our industry because nobody wanted to fund this project. I think that brings up the commercialization point about maybe bringing an adventure capital model in and saying, hey, that boring little logging thing could be a key ingredient for, say, solving some observability problems and it's like, let's put some cash. Again, then we never seen that before. Now you're starting to see that kind of real smart investment thesis going into open source projects.  This is turning up companies. A decade ago, there was no money in DevTools, but I think that's been fully debunked now. There used to be a concept that the venture community believed, but there's just too much evidence the contrary, companies like Cashacord, Datadog, this goes on and on. I think that the challenge for the open source comes back to foundations and working these developers make this code safe and secure. Casey, what's your reaction to all of this? You've got, so a project has gained some traction, got some momentum. There's a lot of mission critical, I say, I won't say white spaces, but opportunities in the big cloud game happening. And there's a lot of, I won't say too many entrepreneurial, but there's a lot of community action happening that's pre-commercialization that's getting traction. How does this all develop naturally and then vector in quickly when it hits? Yeah, I want to go back to the log for J-Topic real quick. I think that it's a great example of an area that we need to do better at. And there was a cool article that Rob Pike wrote describing how to quantify the criticality. I think that's what quantifying criticality was the article he wrote on how to use metrics to determine how valuable, how important a piece of open sources to the community. And we really need to highlight that more. We need a way to make it more clear how important this software is, how many people depend on it, how many people are contributing to it. And because right now we all do that. Like if I'm going to evaluate an open source software, sure I'll look at how many stars it has and how many contributors it has, but I got to go through and do all that work myself and kind of come up with, it would be really great if we had an agreed upon method for ranking the criticality of software, but then also the risk. Hey, this is used by a ton of people, but nobody's contributing to it anymore. That's a concern. And that would be great to potential users of that to signal whether or not it would make sense. The open source security foundation just getting off the ground. They're doing some work in this space. And I'm really excited to see where they go with that, looking at ways to score critical. Well, this brings up a good point. Well, we got everyone here. Let's take a plug and plug a project. You think that's not getting the visibility it needs. Let's go through each of you, point out a project that you think people should be looking at and talking about that might get some pre-visibility here. Anyone want to highlight a project they think should be focused more on or that needs a little bit of love? I think, I mean, particularly if we're talking about these sort of vulnerability issues, there's a ton of work going on, like in the Secure Software Foundation, other foundations, I think there's work going on in Apache somewhere as well around, the bill of material, the software bill of materials, the Secure Software Supply Chain security, even enumerating your dependencies is not trivial today. So I think there's going to be a ton of people and really good work on that, as well as the criticality aspect. It's all like that. There's a really great XKCD cartoon with your software project and some really big monolithic lumps. And then this tiny little piece in a very important point that's maintained by somebody in his bedroom in Montana or something. And if you pulled it out. You never know where the next lightning in a bottle comes from. And this is, I think the beauty of open source is that you get a little collaboration, you get three feet in a cloud of dust going, you get some momentum. And if it's relevant, it rises to the top. I think that's the collective intelligence of open source. The question I want to ask the panel here is, when you go into an enterprise, now that the game is changing with a much more collaborative and involved, what's the story if they say, hey, what's in it for me? How do I manage the open source? What's the current best practice? Because there's no doubt I can't ignore it. It's in everything we do. How do I organize around it? How do I build around it to be more efficient and more productive and reduce the risk on vulnerabilities to managing staff, making sure the right teams in place, the right agility, all those things. You called it. They got to get skin in the game. They need to be active and involved. And donating to a sustainable open source project is a great way to start. But if you really want to be active, then you should be committing. You should have a goal for your organization to be contributing back to that project. Maybe not committing code, could be committing resources into the docs or into tests or even tweeting about an open source project is contributing to it. And I think a lot of these enterprises could benefit a lot from getting more active with the open source foundations that are out there. Liz, you've been actively involved. I know we've talked personally when the CNCF started, which had a great commercial uptake from companies. What do you think the current state of the art kind of equation is? Has it changed a little bit or is the game still the same? Yeah, and in the early days of the CNCF, it was very much dominated by vendors behind the project. And now we're seeing more and more membership from end user companies, the kind of enterprises that are building their businesses on cloud native, but their business is not in itself. That's not there. The infrastructure is not their business. And I think seeing those companies putting money in, putting time in, as Brian says, contributing resources. Quite often there's enough money but finding the talent to do the work and finding people who are prepared to actually chop the wood and carry the water. Exactly. It's hard. If enterprises can find people to spend time on open source projects, help with those chores, it's hugely valuable. And it's one of those, the rising tide floats all the boats. We can raise security. We can raise the reduced the amount of dependency on maintain projects collectively. I think the business model's there. I think one of the things I'll react to and then get your guys' comments is remember which KubeCon it was, it was one of the early ones and remember seeing Apple having a booth but nobody was manning it was just an Apple booth. They weren't doing anything but they were recruiting and I think you saw the transition of a business model where the worry about a big vendor taking over a project and having undue influence over it kind of goes away because I think this idea of participation is also talent. But also committing that talent back, right, into the communities. As a business model, like, okay, hire some great people but listen, don't screw over the open source piece of it because that's critical. Also hire a channel, right? They can use those contributions to source that talent and build the reputation in the communities that they depend on. And so there's really a lot of benefit to the large organizations that can do this. They'll have a huge pipeline of really qualified engineers right out the gate without having to resort to cheesy whiteboard interviews which is pretty great. Yeah, it's gonna come. I agree with a lot of this. One of my concerns is that a lot of these corporations tend to focus very narrowly on certain projects which they feel that they depend greatly. They'll invest in open sector, they'll invest in Docker, they'll invest in some of the CNCF projects and then these other projects kind of get ignored. Something that I've been a proponent of for a little bit of a while is observability of your dependencies. And I don't think there's quite enough projects and solutions to this and it sounds maybe from Liz there are some projects that I don't know about but I also know that there's some startups like Sneak and so forth that help with a little bit of this problem but I think we need more focus on some of these edges and I think companies need to do better both in having some sort of solution for observability of their dependencies as well as understanding those dependencies and managing them. I've seen companies, for instance, depending on software that they actively don't want to use based on certain criteria they already set projects, like they'll set a requirement that any project that they use has a code of conduct but they'll then use projects that don't have codes of conduct. And if they don't have a code of conduct then employees are prohibited from working on those projects. So you've locked yourself into a place where you're depending on software that you have instructed your employees are not allowed to contribute to for certain legal and other reasons. So you need to draw a line in the sand and then recognize that those projects are ones that you don't want to consume and then not use them and have observability around these things. That's a great point. I think we have 10 minutes left. I want to just shift to a topic that I think is relevant and that is as open source software at software people develop software. You see under the hood kind of software SREs developing very quickly in the cloud scale but also you got your, you know your classic software developers who were writing code. So you have supply chain software supply chain challenges. You mentioned developer experience around how to code. You have now automation in place. So you got the development of, you know all these things that are happening. Like I just want to write software. Some people want to get and do infrastructure as code. So DevSecOps is here. So how does that look like going forward? How is the future of open source going to make the developers just want to code code quickly and the folks who want to tweak the infrastructure a bit more efficient. Any views on that? At Gaggle we're using AWS CDK exclusively for our infrastructure as code. And it's a great transition for developers. Instead of writing YAML or JSON or even HCL for their infrastructure code. Now they're writing code in the language that they're used to, Python or JavaScript. And what that's providing is an easier transition for developers into that infrastructure as code at Gaggle here. But it's also providing an opportunity to provide reusable constructs that some devs can build on. So if we've got a very opinionated way to deploy a serverless app and a database and do auto scaling behind all this stuff we can present that to a developer as a library and they can just consume it as is. And maybe that's as deep as they want to go and they're happy with that. But then they want to go deeper into it. They can either use some of the lower level constructs or create PRs to the platform team to have those constructs change to fit their needs. So it provides a nice on-ramp developers to use the tools and languages they're used to and then also go deeper as they need. That's awesome.  Do you think they're taking care of form? No, I'm only kidding. No, I'm only kidding. Any other reactions to this whole, I just want to code, make it easy for me and some people want to get down and dirty under the hood. So I think that for me Docker was always a key part of this. I don't know when DevSecOps was coined exactly but I was talking with people about it back in 2012. And when I joined Docker, it was a part of that vision for me was that Docker was applying these security principles by default for your application. It wasn't, I mean, yes, everybody adopted because of the portability and the acceleration of development. But it was for me the fact that it was limiting what you could do from a security angle by default and then giving you these tunables that you can control further. You asked about a project that may not get enough recognition is something called Docker Slim, which is designed to optimize your containers and will make them smaller. But it also constrains the security footprint and will remove capabilities from the container. It will help you build security profiles for AppArmor and the Red Hat one, SC Linux. Yeah, and, you know, this is something that I think a lot of developers, you know, it's kind of outside of the realm of things that they're really thinking about. So the more that we can automate those processes and make it easier out of the box for users or for, you know, when I say users, I mean developers, you know, so that it's straightforward and automatic and also giving them the capability of refining it and tuning it as needed. Or simply choosing platforms like, you know, serverless offerings, which have these security constraints built in out of the box and sometimes maybe less tunable, but, you know, very strong by the thought. And I think that's, you know, a good place for us to be is where we just enforce these things and make you do things, you know, in a secure way. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of Kubernetes, but it's not the right hammer for every, you know, nail. And there are absolutely tons of applications that are better served by something like Lambda, where a lot more of that security surface is taken care of for the developer. And I think we will see better tooling around, you know, security profiling and making it easier to kind of shrink wrap your applications. That, you know, there are plenty of products out there that can help you with this in a cloud-native environment. But I think for the smaller developer, let's say, or an earlier stage company, yeah, it needs to be so much more straightforward, really does. We're at an interesting time. 10 years ago, when I was working at Adobe, we used to requisition all these analysts to tell us how many developers there were for the market. And we thought there was about 20 million developers. And if GitHub's to be believed, we think there's now around 80 million developers. So both these groups are probably wrong in their numbers, but the takeaway here for me is that we've got a lot of new developers. And a lot of these new developers are really struck by a paradox of choice. And they're typically starting on the front end. And so there's a lot of movement in the stack to move towards the front end. We saw that at re-invent when Amazon's really pushing amplify, because they're seeing this too. It's interesting because this is where folks start. And so a lot of the abstractions are moving in that direction, but maybe not always necessarily totally appropriate. And so finding the right balance for folks is still a work in progress. Like Lambda is a great example. It lets me focus totally on just business logic. I don't have to think about infrastructure pretty much at all. And if I'm newer to the industry, that makes a lot of sense to me. As use cases expand, all of a sudden reality intervenes and it might not be appropriate for everything. So figuring out what those edges are is still the challenge, I think. All right, thank you very much for coming on the CUBE panel. AWS heroes, thanks everyone for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Okay, that's a wrap here. Back to the program and the awesome startups. Thanks for watching.


Books are bound starting from leaves, sheets of paper, or in the past of parchment, so different materials mean different techniques to create the book. After folding these sheets you end up with sections that are made of bifolia. Those sections are then joined together through the passage of thread with a needle and they can be sewn on supports or simply through stitching. They're joining them on the back, so on the folds. Byzantine binding have sewing unsupported, so made of sections that are joined together simply with the passage of thread with a needle. Byzantine bindings are very peculiar because of some specific physical features they identify them. First of all the boards are flashed with a book block. They're lined up with something that is not like a western book where you have the squares as we call them, so the boards are attached at the end of the sewing actually protrude from the book block. The most striking feature is the end bend. The end bend that protrudes from the book because it's sewn on top at head and tail, so top and bottom, and it's done outside what I said, the boards and the book blocks. There are other smaller details, like one very unique, I would say, are the grooves along the edges of the wooden boards, head, fore-edge and tail, and we don't really even know exactly why. This is just made for a statical reason. This one specifically is 15th century, as I said, central manuscript, so still in the time when it's considered the pure Byzantine style. We can immediately see this very peculiar feature where the end bends, head and tail protrude from the height of the entire book block. In the original one we also have a very nice decoration of the edges of the boards, and this again is quite typical of Byzantine binding. These are the reproductions of the original tools that were used to decorate this binding in the 15th century, so you can actually see from this you gain that impression.


Hey guys, it's Nate, aka The Foot Accountant. Welcome back to the channel. It is Monday, so it's market outlook time. Let's take a look at Premier League team this season, and of course the Saudi League team this season is coming today and talk about what we're gonna be seeing on the market this week, throughout this week. There's a lot of questions, right? With upgrade packs being the main high point right now with a lot of SBCs being completed, what's that gonna do for the market as well? Can you make some coins this week? I think that answer is a yes. And also what is there to expect today with the Saudi League Tots dropping and new objectives, new icon swaps, potentially with the whole new, or the whole set of icon swaps ending and the whole season ending this Friday. So we'll get new season progress players of course for level 15 and level 30. This is your last week to get to that level 30 grind if you really want Lamella, Breander, Kandreva. And yeah, again, the big part about what right now what's going on in this game is the upgrade packs. We have Tots cards that are dropping in price from that squad battle supply and just people going out and doing these upgrade packs. I haven't even favorited them yet. I've really not been on the game too much today. It's been a crazy weekend, but I did see that EA dropped the SBCs that we wanted. We got the Premier League Premium Upgrade, a rare player pick as these craftable kind of SBCs right now. Now this is the one that I'd be doing. The Premier League Premium Upgrade, this is the one that I'm gonna be putting a lot of coins into this week. It doesn't require prem rares. It just requires 11 rare players. It has to be, of course, gold rare players, 45 chemistry in a 4-4-2 formation that is a GG. Now you're gonna get a lot, and we'll talk about the crafting side of things as well from this because if you're spamming these packs you're gonna be able to craft and recycle, right? Those are two popular words that we see all the time. If you're doing packs this week, buy the rares, do the premium upgrades. If you don't wanna buy the rares you can technically grind up on the packs from like BPM if you really wanna do that grind. But if you have coins like me, I'm gonna be buying rares, doing the prem upgrade, and then rinsing from that prem upgrade, all my non-rares, I'll maybe rinse some of them into this rare player pick and then the other ones will go into the Premier League upgrade. So the lower tier upgrade that requires just 10 gold players and 30 chemistry. So you can put one, whatever, bronze silver or whatever in this squad. So that's a perfect place for you to rinse. If you really are just trying to pack blues, I would say the way to go for it this week is gonna be buy the rares, do the premium upgrades, then rinse your rares back into the premium and then rinse some of your golds into the player pick and into the Premier League upgrade if you really wanna do that. Because of course, we're gonna have the Saudi League Tots today as well. So technically you could get other Tots cards in the rare player picks. I think the only thing that we would've wanted to see differently yesterday from Sunday when they released these, if this was the 81 plus player pick, then that would be correct, right? If they'd released that one in this game that'd be an awesome, awesome SBC to have alongside with that Premier League premium upgrade. But that's the one that we wanted, right? That 25K pack and that just makes things very craftable. Now, I did not do a lot of buying or selling yesterday but I did buy this Kentana at 1.53 and he was 1.7 for most of the weekend. So I'm gonna be holding on to this a little bit and probably trying to sell it later on in the next day or so. But that was a pretty good deal. Now let's take a look at these Tots cards, right? Because of course upgrades are out, people are spamming coins and we'll talk about the market impact of that. But these Tots cards are down. Harry Kane, 500,000 coins, Salah is in one too. I mean, Rashford's down 300K today. Sun is back down almost at his lowest price since Lightning rounds. Ruben Diaz at 370. Ederson as a 94 rated card is 120K. That's pretty crazy. Fofana looks cheap, Shaw is down. Cancelo's dropped almost 100K. Mason Mount is almost 300,000 coins. So a lot of these cards are dropping with supply and these are kind of gonna be the lower prices that we'll see throughout this week. Not like the absolute lowest, but you see on the weekends they're up, right? They've just come into packs. We have all the supply from the Lightning rounds that come through the first three days and now we get into the week with that Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday timeframe as usually the lowest for these cards. Now next week we have La Liga team this season and we'll talk more about that. But this Premier League team this season squad, it's gonna be, they're gonna see a massive rise later in the week after awards and again, a lot of the market that has been sold off, there's a lot of coins in this game right now. So a lot of your Premier League links that went up last week are gonna rise again later on this week and we'll be talking about that a lot this week. But again, if you're eyeing any of these cards for your team, I think you just keep watching them drop a little bit lower as the focus this week is on those upgrade packs and on those SBCs. I do think you will see some of the market continue to drop off a little bit depending on also what other type of SBC content that we receive. Now of course, this Harry Kane card has been a fluctuating beast. I traded this guy last night, I bought him down at like 581,000 coins and I got kind of lucky, I sold him at 620. And then he's down again today, 530 and then now since rewards, he has dropped from 530 to 500K flats. So a nice drop there on Harry Kane and also very rare cards. So this guy keeps fluctuating but again, you have some of these high tier guys that are down a lot from the supply. Some of these might bounce back a little bit into the morning today on Monday, depending on the content that we have. And I also want to look at these cards. I want to look at the EFL cards because they are going out of packs and there's a lot of players that are part of the squad even though they've been in packs for the extra couple of days, I'm sort of interested like this Max Aarons, you know, down at the 70,000 coin range it looks like he's been bought up. He was 70K a couple hours ago. That for me is a really good investment as a Pacey English right back. We saw this guy at 150K before he was reintroduced into packs, Tony, Aarons, Buendia, Clark Harris. You know, those are guys that I think you might see a bit of a rise on.  Now, Serie A team this season today, or sorry, not Serie A, Saudi League. I feel like the EFL top squad is probably gonna have a little bit more hype than the Saudi League is gonna end up having. We will see though what it ends up looking like today. I really don't know. I haven't done a lot of research or even looked into what players could be in the Saudi League top. So that's gonna be kind of interesting but hopefully we'll see some nice cards in there. Usually there's a couple of gems from each of the secondary league team this season that come out that just kind of make you think, wow, those cards are actually kind of sick. Somebody got a crazy little bit on the Anzu Fatih at one mil earlier today. That was pretty nuts. Anyways, a lot of the market is down in total, right? Coming out of the weekend league, we're gonna take a look at these cards and talk about this because if you're not somebody who's really, if you don't really wanna go in a lot on opening upgrade packs or you don't wanna spend too many coins this week doing that, that's not your cup of tea and you're still looking to make coins and trade on this market or buy players for your team, perhaps. These cards have really dropped back off to where they were almost pre-market resurgence on Friday night when stuff got crazy high. Atal is back to 700K. Awar is back down to 600. Adama's in the 700K range. Kent has dropped. Tamori's dropped even further than it was before. And also with LaLiga team this season coming up later this week. Watch out for your LaLiga out of pack specials. This might be an early time to get in on some of those like a Maldredge who's gonna be a rare card that people will probably try to link to some of those new LaLiga Tots cards coming out later this week. So watch out for your Spanish links. A guy like that Maldredge is probably gonna be the best version of him in the game. But again, you look at these cards' prices and you see Lucas is down, Sane's down like $100,000 coins from where he was very, very high later in earlier this weekend. De Bruyne 472, right? That's down like 30, 40,000 coins. You take a look through some of these informs and special cards. Conte's one mil, Odegaard 232. Chris Smalling is 292. I think some of the centerbacks are being heard in price on this game because of the good value centerbacks that are in this Premier League team this season. I mean, you've got Fofana and Ruben Diaz in the 250 to 350K range which are both really solid cards. And I think that's actually affecting more of the market in the centerback position than I expected it to. But even like this Fatih card was 1.2 million coins easy earlier this weekend. If I saw this at like 1.05, I'd probably go for a snag because you got LaLiga Tots coming on later this week and that's a card that is still team in the season and end game statistically in this game that a lot of people will try to use with LaLiga team this season. So regardless of whether you're looking at those types of links or Premier League cards, this actually, this rain is really low. Watch some of your Premier League cards too or just your meta specials like Kamavinga's 620 for that card. He was well over seven RK on the weekend. Just watch out for these cards because I do think they will rise back. Maybe not as high, it depends on what card it is but there's gonna be again a rise back because there's so many coins on this market. You guys remember, I bought Yetter for 500K on Friday and sold them for 580. This Bomba was 260 on the weekend. He's now down under 200K. Joao Felix 245, right? I don't know if he's getting a team the season card or not but that card's gonna link to a lot of those Tots cards that do come out, right?  Situation potential right there. And of course you got your Veran special card. That's down 100K today. It's Pogba's up. So I'll be watching the market because I do think with the SBCs that are out and this is something, if the SBCs right now the upgrade SBCs, if they have hype which I think these do because again, you've got Premier League Tots cards that are in packs and everybody's gonna try to spam some packs this week in the first couple of days specifically of the week to try to get some of these cards. So I would really think that with these SBCs out a lot of the focus is gonna be on these and opening the packs. That's what I'm gonna be doing this week. So you're gonna have less eyes on the market and I think that means potential for some of these Tots cards and some of the out of pack specials to continue sliding downwards and really not have a lot of hype or demand until we get to that Wednesday timeframe and then you're gonna start to see people start thinking about buying up some of those cards whether it's Premier League links just meta out of pack specials for a rise for Weekend League and then your top tier icons and stuff as well just like we saw last week but even to a greater extent this week you're gonna see a huge market rise later in the week again because people that are getting their Weekend League rewards from this weekend that is just ending they're really gonna try to go out and put together a team with maybe some of these new Premier League Tots cards that they wanna add to their team or whoever they pack from the guaranteed Tots SBC that's a big one as well. The guaranteed Premier League Tots SBC is gonna be a huge, huge part of this week. Now technically right now it's not in the code yet. I believe that it has not been added to the code only the Saudi League guaranteed has been added in. So of course, since we've had the whole social media blackout thing this weekend there's a lot of tweets that and I'll, EA is not really tweeting I don't know if that's like Foot Watch and stuff like that as well but I've been checking around and all of the guys that usually tweet out the code I haven't seen any tweets from them about any new code being added so I don't think we have that pack yet in the code and if it's not coming then that is a huge L right? We need that guaranteed Premier League Tots upgrade pack to be a part of this week so I think it will be I don't think that's gonna be a problem but what is that pack gonna cost is the big question we're gonna go back to FIFA 20 really quick and show you what that pack costs because if we're basing anything off of last year earlier this last week we saw the community team of the season pack it was the same exact requirements as the team of the season pack from last year so I wanna search Tots SF and we're gonna go Premier League Tots SF guaranteed that's the SPC that we are looking for right now on the foot bin machine and that is this one right here Premier League I think it was like an 88 rated squad and then team of the season is what it required last year 88 rated squad with one team of the season player and 70 chemistry last year so if you're doing upgrade packs this week maybe be careful with your higher rated fodder that you pack because I do think that it could be around the same requirements for this year I hope that it's less I hope it's like an 86 or an 87 rated squad but I feel like they could still make it 88 because they gotta got like Rashford in here and Bruno Fernandez at two to three million coins there's only right now five cards that are over a million coins with Zabroian being right in that range now of course there's only 15 cards so maybe they can price the SPC a little bit cheaper but I honestly have a feeling that they won't I think they're gonna make this probably an 88 or 87 rated squad requiring a team the season card so really watch some of your fodder this week now fodder again is still very low it's up a little bit from where it was I mean if you take a look at 84s they're still pretty low 85s are pretty cheap I mean this stuff is lower but your higher rated fodder might start to see a little bit of an uptick in price as people are getting prepared for that to come out later on this week and that's not to mention any SPCs that we could see at some point this week as well so again I'm really watching some of this out of pack special stuff to see which kind of stuff has dropped and which kind of stuff has maintained a high price because that to me I really wanna take in that information this is Soko was like 350 he's down to 299 that's a meta card as a midfielder in the prem that people would probably like to use now of course you have this Abomian for 730,000 coins this interests me right that's a huge undercut is that actually on the market is this Abomian at 730 actually sitting on the market because if it is I'm gonna get involved because this is a card that I'm interested in for later this week of course as Arsenal are playing their down right now 730 it's been sitting there for that long let me just make a double check and make sure that he hasn't been that price all day today he really hasn't been 730 he's been pretty low so you know what I'm gonna go and pick this up because I think that's a really good price I mean this guy is probably gonna be towards 800,000 coins as we get towards that game later on this week as we do have Champions League and Europa League the second leg's coming on later this week so that's one thing to kind of watch out for as well are those games and he wrote to the final market movements that you know cards that lost in the first leg you know you might see if they have a potential to come back like I'm not sure about the whole Manchester City with the PSG situation can PSG do something in the second leg we will see but then of course I'm really watching that Arsenal side because I think Arsenal might be able to come back on Villarreal of course the first leg was not so good for Arsenal but we will see and of course I mean big games in the Champions League and we have the we've got the showdown as well on the front page here we have got the showdown between Marc Solonzo and Mariano for that Wednesday game on the fifth of Chelsea vs Real Madrid so that's we have to kind of keep our eyes on that as well that's gonna be sort of the content we'll see this week also what that means is potentially UEFA Marquis matchups again I don't know if they'll do it for a second week and then focus on the Europa League games because I believe the UEFA Marquis matchups that came out before was related to the Champions League games so maybe they will do UEFA Marquis matchups later on this week and focus on the Europa League games if they did that that will be more pack supply coming to the market because again this is UEFA not necessarily just Champions League I think it's most of them in Champions League before but maybe we don't get that this week but that could kind of mess with the supply for the of course the Premier League Tots packs that we'll see and how those cards prices move throughout the week this week but again also on Friday we have LaLiga team this season again if you haven't seen in the foot champions the schedule in here you can look and see next week if you check a look at the details it says ultimate LaLiga Tots pack so that almost but confirms LaLiga team season is next week so we'll see our Tots messy coming on Friday we'll have a prediction video up on that very soon and of course the new season is gonna be arriving and hopefully hopefully they drop a new icon swaps right away with no lag no delay I think last time there was a hesitation between icon swaps one ending and two starting but hopefully they drop icon swaps three really fast and right away and hopefully they add some more packs because you know another 81 times 25 82 and 83 times 25 would be very nice during team of the season with all these Tots cards out and available so that could be one thing we see this week as well but again I really think it's just there's gonna be a lot of questioning this week on when do I buy Premier League Tots cards cause this market has coins now yes there's gonna be a lot of coins drained through SBCs through crafting through the upgrade packs and it's gonna make prices maybe slide a little bit into this week unless the panic selling today is just too severe I feel like when that Premier League Tots SBC comes out you're gonna see a market dip because that's an 87 or 88 rated squad but like everybody is gonna wanna do that because that of course you could pack Rashford you could pack Bruno you could pack Salah so we'll be talking about that later on this week and what I might think the market could do there but that's like the focal point in the center of this week that should be on Wednesday that should be on Wednesday and then of course I don't know if they're gonna mess around with that schedule with Saudi League Tots coming out today if they're gonna do the guaranteed right away on Tuesday like they did with EFL and Community we will have to see but that's kind of the market outlook for this week since there's a lot of coins on this game trading this week wise you know watch your bids like this Antu Fatih you know talking about if I could see one at 1.05 that I would buy it I mean cards like this are gonna be fluctuating down they're gonna fluctuate all around you know of course as they are rare and as people have coins they're gonna go out and they're gonna try cards so I'm kind of watching this Pushkas card cause he's down he was down pretty low today this is he done your baby and your out of packs baby and middle icons are gonna be fantastic fantastic to trade with as well because those fly below the radar so often so often that's really been a place where I've made a lot of coins this past couple of weeks as we've been grinding the trade so that's kind of the market outlook for this week man I'm gonna be spending a lot of coins this week on getting myself as many Prem Tots as we can we'll try to upgrade this counter as high as we can go I would love to pack Sun and Kane because supposedly that Sun card is the best one besides Rashford maybe even better than Rashford in this team so that's gonna be a very interesting thing to watch and I'm gonna keep watching these cards even late tonight Sunday into Monday one common theme that we do see is some of these cards are rising up so I'm gonna watch this Harry Kane Tots card since there's a lot of hype for these new guys people wanna try them out and their prices have dropped so much people might just see these prices and be like hey man I'm gonna give them a go because these guys look are really really cheap from where they were so I'm gonna keep an eye on this Harry Kane tonight because if I see 500K flat I mean look we have five cards there to 530K so 500K flat for me is gonna be something that where I'm gonna get involved because boom you know all it takes is a couple cards and he's back to 530 I flipped him last night I flipped him every single night the past couple days so I'm really gonna watch out for this Kane card see what he can do if I can get a deal or something and then maybe on Bruno maybe Ruben Diaz those are some other cards that I might just keep an eye on because they're just pretty rare they're pretty rare and that just means more flipping potential I mean this Ruben Diaz was 500K almost earlier this weekend right now he's 370 so I'm gonna keep an eye on Han Kensello as well and Mason Mount man because Mason Mount I think this is a pretty good card for being 310,000 coins if I saw 300 flat for this which he's right he's flirting with that 300K flat range I might have to get involved we have not very many cards of mount at 320 as well which that might be a glitch so I'm gonna try this right here this is a pro tip yeah see when the market glitches out on you like that this is a great way to actually check and see if it's glitching out search the old way right because there's no Mason Mount cards with the price range that's lower than 100K so as I can see here when I was searching with the actual quality type filter it was only showing me one page of Mason Mount and now when I fix it it shows me all of them so we have about two and a half pages so just a little bit of a tip there if you're messing around on the market but I'm gonna watch those guys maybe a slight rise in the morning as people see the prices have dropped and they want to try them out but again, big week of trying to make coins but also trying to pack some Tots players and that's gonna be one of the focuses for me this week I'm glad about that price in a bombing and that was a really good price he's really really rare and that's gonna have high building throughout the week this week as well watch your out of pack specials because those are 100% gonna be going up again this weekend with all the coins that are on this market and some of the high tier icons we'll talk about that later on this week too maybe with a dedicated Thursday flipping video we haven't done one of those in a while we'll have to keep that in mind as we head out through the week if you pack anything team of the season wise this week if you're spamming the upgrades let me know right my Twitter link is down in the description send me pictures, send me whatever I wanna see what you guys can pack from these SBCs if you pack some blues I would love to see it but that's the market outlook for me this week boys Premier League Tots continuing Saudi League Tots today and then La Liga coming on this Friday so if you enjoyed this video smash a thumbs up on a comment down below if you have any questions and of course subscribe if you're new it's been Nathan Ford Accountant and I'll catch you guys later, peace.


I mean it feels so good to be in a space that's so full of people thinking on the intersection between technology and social change and just hearing so many people reference in their check-in rounds this idea that we need to design spaces online that can unlock collective intelligence and collective purpose and collective empathy and I guess I feel really privileged to be here and to be working on a project for the last few years that's sitting at exactly that intersection, this attempt to really design spaces intentionally to enable people to achieve collective purpose. So I had hoped to be joined here by my amazing co-founder Alana Cross. She's sadly laying low with some poor health today so I'll do my best to honour her in this presentation too. I was just going to share a little about my background, about where Lumios come from, the journey that we've been on and then really get into some examples of, I mean one of the things I really wanted to bring was the hope that's come with working on a project that's just this magnet for amazing community driven self-organising, innovative business minds, people in government, just this magnet for amazing things happening all over the world so I'll bring some of that too. So I never imagined that I would get involved in a technology project so my background is in something quite different. A few years ago I was hitting rapidly down this academic path researching cognitive neuroscience and then into comparative evolutionary psychology. I wasn't going to bring this in but then hearing Joshua speak about his experience of working with chimpanzees, I started a PhD, I got sent to Texas to work with chimpanzees to research the evolution of collective intelligence in humans and so I was attempting to teach chimps to use touch screens to see, thank you Joshua, to investigate something called cumulative cultural evolution so this is this idea that humans for whatever reason as far as we know the only species that has this increasing wealth of cultural complexity that increases with every generation so with each generation, with each passing moment, the total accumulated mass of socially transmitted information is growing in complexity so we're born into this social environment, this social information environment that enables people to do more complex things than the previous generation was able to. And so I was engaged in really trying to answer this question of why humans are the only species as far as we know that's becoming, and this is a simplistic way of phrasing it but that's becoming collectively more intelligent over time. And at the same time engaging in this work really interesting on a theoretical level and then every night when I would go home I would be struck through, largely through social media and through online communications just flooded with images of everything going wrong in the world on the systemic institutional scale so economic collapse, social upheaval, environmental degradation, more than anything and just feeling like well if we're getting more collectively intelligent over time supposedly why is it that our behavior just seems collectively stupider and stupider like on a systemic scale what is dumber than undertaking these behaviors that are threatening our collective existence, that are threatening the capacity of the earth to sustain life, it's just about the dumbest thing you can imagine. And so I got really disillusioned with the pace of translating academic knowledge into anything that could positively impact on the real world at the same time I found out that the primate sanctuary I was working at was just a front for a massive breeding center where they're breeding thousands of owl monkeys and squirrel monkeys to sell into the pharmaceutical industry. So those things combined led me to just drop that work, come back to New Zealand, get involved in community organizing and social movement activism. And it was a good time to do that, it was just before 2011 when this wave of social movements swept around the world and these just seemed like, I mean just seeing this happen sweep through the Middle East through the Arab Spring revolutions, seeing what was happening in Spain and Latin America with the Indignados and 15M movements and then Occupy Wall Street. So right in the heart of the financial heart of the world these people coming together with this shared belief that things could be better, this shared belief that on a systemic level our economic institutions are no longer serving the populations that they were designed to serve, they're no longer performing the function of distributing resources equitably that they were set up to. So this was, we've heard, I mean Kenny's comment I really resonate with, it's a comment about social media having this huge mobilizing effect and then leaving this sort of vacuum. Once people are all together what happens next? And seeing this happen in person in Wellington so that the bottom right hand corner shows so like most things in New Zealand happening on a smaller scale than in other places but happening nonetheless, hundreds of people who have never met each other coming together, this is October 15th, 2011, this International Day of Solidarity with Occupy Wall Street and figuring out how to organize themselves in a way that's inclusive and participatory and doesn't replicate the hierarchical power structures that have caused the problems that people are coming together to talk about solving.  And seeing groups go through that process and come to better decisions than any individual would have made by themselves because they're enabling these diverse inputs because the truly enabling diverse perspectives to feed into a process was just something I'd never seen before. But we also saw how limiting it was, needing to be in the same place at the same time to participate in a decision-making process means everyone else is excluded from it. Having a situation where loud voices, where only one person can speak at a time and loud voices come to dominate the discussion, shutting everyone else out.  It starts to resemble, you know, parliament. So basically we felt like surely we can use this communications infrastructure that we're using, you know, to mobilize, that we're using to exchange information every day. Surely there's some way of using that to also make decisions together to translate that information into agreement around a collective action, collective purpose. So just at exactly the time that that was going on, we encountered this network of social enterprises in Wellington called Inspiro. So we got in discussion with a guy called Joshua Vile, who's one of the people that kicked off Inspiro. And just started talking about, you know, their intent to use technology to mobilize around social change, to use social enterprise, the tools of business to further our social mission. And we turned up there and asked them, you know, told them about this idea that we'd had, you know, how can we build something where we can make decisions online? We basically asked them to build it for us. And their response was, well, you know, we need that as well. We need to make collective decisions about how we run the co-working space, about how the network functions. So you should build it for us. And so the outcome, luckily, was this collaboration where they gave us a disk and an internet connection and we got to work. So what we started building became over a few months to be known as Lumia. So this is an open source platform for collective decision making. So this idea that we can build an online space that provides the simplest way for people to come together, talk something through, agree a course of action, and then act on it. So a clear decision, a clear decision as the outcome. So just show you a little bit, just very, very basically how it works. So I mean, at its core, it's a really simple concept. It's essentially providing an online space for people to make decisions in the way that groups of people who work well together in the physical world to provide a space for them to do what they already do. So, you know, you've got a, you have a known group of people and within that group, anyone can start a discussion on any topic. You've got a space to outline the topic and give context so people can have a well informed discussion. And then when the discussion gets to a point where someone in the group feels like the group could make a decision about what course of action to take, they can put up a proposal. So a proposal, a good proposal is a clear course of action for the group to take. And then people have the ability to participate in a decision by clicking one of four buttons so people can either agree with the proposal. They can abstain or opt out. They can disagree and say, well, it's not my ideal solution, but I'm not going to stand in the way of the group if people really want to move forward with it, or they can raise a red flag or a block. So these are just the core elements of consensus decision making as has been practiced in social justice movements for generations and generations. So this is not about majority rules polling. This is not about, you know, this binary opposition that we get into in our traditional political system. It's not about a snapshot of preferences like you get in a survey. It's about having a flexible mode of making decisions where you can see however one feels, why each person feels that way, and you're able to change your position as new information comes to light. And you're able to go through an iteration of proposals. So when concerns are raised, the group can address them and the proposal can be updated to reflect those concerns. So you get this effect of collective wisdom that we just see over and over again of groups coming to better decisions together than any individual would have by themselves. So really opening that space for diverse perspectives to feed into the decisions that a group makes. And at the end of the process, you get a clear outcome. So whether there's agreement or not, you can see it and you can decide together what the next step needs to be. So you always get a conclusion. It's not like if you've ever tried to make decisions with a group of more than three or four people by email, you'll know what it's like to get bound in this back and forth in this like tangle of communication where you can, you know, you can pass information to each other, but bringing it to this convergence on a shared course of action can be really difficult. And this system, you end up with a really clear outcome. And so as soon as we got it out the door, we were, I mean, the most striking thing is just the international spread that just emerged. So just through word of mouth. I mean, that's that's what the internet's really good at. So we started seeing it being used in the first large-scale international use case was in Hungary, the Hungarian student movement, organized large-scale nationwide protests, protesting against government education cuts. And so, you know, we saw this group spring up, group of student activists spring up, and then that led to this profusion of groups in Hungary through, you know, newspapers, government departments. There were festival organizers using it. Just this real really interesting organic spread. Grocery cooperatives in San Francisco through to, you know, conferences for nonviolent communication in India, through to companies like Cora and Dropbox have worked teams using it, through to, you know, the French, French Division of Orange Mobile and then, you know, city councils and local governments using it to feed in citizen input into policymaking. One of the most striking things for me has seeing has been seeing it picked up in on a large scale in Spain over the last six months. So there's this huge social movement right now that's come out of the 15M or the Indignados, the Spanish equivalent of the Occupy movement. And that's given rise to a political party now called Podemos. So it's sort of the Spanish equivalent to what's happening in Greece right now with Sariza and their grassroots community base, 25,000 people using Lumio in hundreds and hundreds of groups, neighborhood working groups to organize democratically, to decide what their action is going to be in a participatory way. So in total now, as of this morning, I just checked on the stats. You know, just through organic word of mouth spread, while we're still in beta, the software is still in a beta stage, but we're about to have a full release in the next couple of months, 69,356 people engaging in a total of 23,171 decisions. So just thinking about, I mean, it's it's still on this sort of the tip of where it's going to go. Like we feel like we're still in the very formative stages of what this can be, this online space for people to come together, deliberate and make collective decisions. And I guess I just wanted to talk a little bit about the two types of groups that we're seeing come to Lumio. The two sort of broad use cases seem to really come out of the way that decisions are currently being made out in the world. So traditionally, you know, decisions have either been made organizations that care about social justice, social movements, community organizations often will try to make decisions using bottom up processes, trying to involve everyone in the decision. And you know, that can be a really inclusive and empowering way of doing things, but it can also be really slow and really fragile. So this is what we saw in the Occupy movement. It's what we see in social movements all over the world. The other dominant mode of decision making is top down. So you see this in government institutions and companies in organizations that are centralized. But there's this real, you know, and that can be fast and clear in the short term, but it can also be disempowering because it excludes most people. So in that in that group, we see, you know, local governments coming to us to say, well, how can we involve more more citizens in policymaking? We see member driven NGOs and organizations wanting to devolve some of the power that they've centralized. And so for us, it's all about bringing those to a third way of doing things. So rather than classic bottom up or classic top down decision making, thinking about networked decision making. So this is a, you know, a mode of decision making that's inclusive and empowering, as well as being fast and with clear outcomes. So it's not going for participation at the expense of efficiency and effectiveness, but really bringing those two things together. So the way that in spiral functions feels like a pretty amazing embodiment of this mode of organizing where you don't have everyone involved in all decisions, whether they're affected by those decisions or not, which is, you know, time consuming and unworkable. You have different working groups of people, specialized working groups. You have different levels of decision making with different levels of stakeholder. So at Inspiral, the co-working space, day to day decisions are made by all the people using the co-working space. And then at the board level, it's the board making decisions at the strategic level. So you have these different different levels of decision making. You see the same thing in social movements where you have working groups self-organizing, and it's really about valuing the individual and the collective. So individual autonomy, really valuing individual perspectives, providing a space that doesn't inherently marginalize groups while also valuing collective autonomy. So the ability of the collective to get things done together to achieve a collective purpose. Another group that's a really interesting example of an organization using Limeo to become, you know, to operate in a more human, empathic, collective way is the Wikimedia Foundation. So the head office of Wikimedia Foundation in San Francisco uses Limeo to involve 180 staff in decisions about the way that their office runs. So it's freed them from, in their words, the tyranny of trying to make decisions by email or through a video conference. So just knowing that we've had some impact on an organization that's behind, you know, the greatest sum of all human knowledge that's ever been assembled into one, into one place has just made the whole thing really worthwhile to us. And I just wanted to finish by by acknowledging that one of the things that's made all of this work possible is support from Brian and Matthew through the Namaste Foundation, who specifically funded us to work on building accessibility into the core of Lumeo. So to make the software as accessible and inclusive as possible, inclusive of people with visual impairment and with cognitive impairment. So people who are so often marginalized in forms of decision making. And I mean, we get these stories flowing in from people who, one story from an activist in Philadelphia, who was deeply passionate about the Occupy movement, but would turn up and because of her severe visual impairment was just unable to participate in general assembly decision making. And so for people like her, I mean, she's she's just this huge supporter and really sees the potential for this to change the sort of diversity of people that are able to be involved in decision making people with limited mobility and people with limited vision. So that's the that's the thing that keeps us working on this really passionately day in day out. So thank you very much. Thanks for that, Ben. Do we have time for three questions? Thanks for that, Ben. I'm curious if you could maybe give us a sneak peek. I think Josh, Josh might share more of this vision, but one thing that that you and Alana have have described for me that gets me really inspired is this vision of how the patterns of Lumio can now be applied to other open source tools around collaborative software network organizations and and so forth. So one of the other things that we're just embarking on is is looking and I hope this is what you're referring to, but looking at how Lumio can operate with other other open source modules. So Inspire is increasingly becoming a network that's spinning out open technology tools to bring down the cost of organizations and communities operating in socially beneficial ways. So the next big thing on the horizon is a tool for participatory budgeting or collaborative funding decisions where where lots of people can be involved in making decisions about how their organization or their community allocates resources. So that's a tool called co-budget and another thing that Namaste Foundation is making possible is us to undertake interoperability work. So really moving towards this ecosystem approach of modular tools that enable groups to get things done in more collaborative participatory ways. So we're we're working with the participatory budgeting project in New York in San Francisco and they're looking at how to include Lumio and co-budget as open technology tools to support participatory budgeting processes in schools in San Jose and in Lawrence, Massachusetts. So this is involving students and teachers and parents in funding decisions about the way that their schools allocate resources. So all of this is about this recognizing this disintermediation that's come with the Internet with more and more governance needing to happen outside institutions because institutions are increasingly failing to meet the needs of people that were set up to serve. So recognizing that if if we're going to be undertaking more governance, we need to get really good at it. We need to get really good at equitably distributing resources. We need to move beyond this era of social media being really good at mobilizing people and they'll move from that mobilization to sustained robust collective action. Thanks Ben. It's it's obviously a almost a very charitable mission, very donation worthy. But we know that that doesn't always mean that the donations show up. Is there a is there any way to without ruining the core mission? Offer a little bit of ROI in some sensible way that brings impact investors to the table. You see that with things like WordPress. I've never paid WordPress a dime, but I think they're probably a profitable company while offering all that free stuff for people. And also maybe tell a little bit about what your funding needs are, which you very humbly avoided so far. It's a really good question. It's I guess we consider part of our social mission to find a revenue model. Basically, we've been really focused on recognizing that we need to we need this project to be financially independent. We need it to not be dependent long term on charitable giving. We need it to not be dependent on government funding. We also need it to not be driven by a revenue model that only benefits financial interests. So it needs to you know to really be public infrastructure for collective organizing. It can't be driven by an advertising model and it can't be driven by you know the needs of venture capital that has an exit strategy in place. But what we are working on is a revenue model where the project is driven with the organization is funded by the users of the software. So that the incentives are aligned. So that the social mission is totally aligned with where the resources are coming from. So we're going down the track of developing, iterating towards a revenue model where commercial uses. So where city councils and government departments, large organizations pay for using Lumio so that non-commercial use can always be free and open. That's testing well so far. So we're at the beginning of that journey, but that's the direction that we're moving in. We already do consulting work.  We teach them the in-person skills of collaboration because there have been several comments this morning which I'm really happy to hear about technology is useless without the culture driving it or the dreams guiding it or the mission or the purpose. So this is really about capacity building. We see Lumio very much as augmenting in-person interaction rather than trying to replace it. So those are the skills that we're currently, you know, we charge consulting rates to large organizations who need that support in collaboration. It's really cool stuff. If you think about how Google does auto correct, I would sort of ask, do you think about recording? Do you keep track of how all of these decisions are made and have a goal in terms of your future that would involve actually extracting new principles of decision-making that no one's been able to extract because they don't have the data and eventually sort of try to notice patterns that evolve based on previous decision-making and actually try to aid people and say it looks like not so much like clippy in words saying you're trying to write a letter to your mom, but like actually trying to predict and help people go forward and use use the path, not just the end result of this data. Yeah, that's absolutely the direction that we're heading in. And we're in conversation with interested academic groups to look at the quality of decision-making and different social factors that influence the quality of outcome of decision-making. There's so much so much useful data in there about group dynamics and the things that lead to groups making more or less intelligent decisions and absolutely building in that feedback cycle. So learning from the people using it and then feeding that learning out to the people using it is really powerful. And I just realized I missed off the second half of Josh's question, which was about funding needs. So our I mean, our focus right now is, you know, where we're in late stage beta, where on the verge of a full product release where it will actually make sense to scale. So we haven't driven, we haven't pushed user numbers at all at this point. It's all been organic and we need the resources to do that early growth work. And so right now we're focused on raising philanthropic donations. So we've got some angel donors in the US and we're in search of more like-minded, mission-aligned people to come on as angel donors. And we're in the longer term when we're looking for capital to really scale up. I mean, things are always going to be mission-aligned. Things are always going to be primarily driven by social mission. But we're also, you know, open to conversations with people about, you know, mission-aligned mechanisms of impact investment that, you know, that acknowledge the risk taken and also acknowledge the importance of having things really aligned with the social mission. So further down the track, when the revenue model is actually up and running and, you know, and it makes sense. But for right now we're focused on finding angel donors that just really understand and share the passion and share the vision and can see the potential for this thing to scale, to really hit large scale positive impact. Awesome. Thank you very much Ben.