He's a special public prosecutor and while we relate back to the 26th November, we all, the broad ideas which come in the mind are martyrs, victims, terrorists, and what are the takes for a lawyer, students of law, judicial officers, are various perspectives which one would understand when we go through this entire trial of the 26th November 2008. When we had requested Mr. Ujwal to share his insights, the most fascinating part was it was not just what we'll go with the storytelling, but how we correlate and learn the nuances of the, as a lawyer or a judicial officer. That would be a facet which we all with the flux of time when we hear him, which I'm quite sure and quite sacrosanct that all of us. Not only have read about him, but we've also heard his webinars, coupled with on various news channels whenever the high profile cases are there, he's the man of the moment today. And without taking much time, I can say that keep on wearing your mask, maintain social distancing and kindly get yourself vaccinated. And we all have seen that the way things are improving while we are maintaining social distancing, wearing masks. The figures have gone down, but the fear is still there and we have, it's all together. They all, they have to say, I is illness and we is wellness. So the joint effort is required. And today our knowledge partner is Daksha Legal, as well as the college from Bangalore, Mr. Mohan is there. And I would request Mr. Ujwal to take things forward, over to you sir. Thank you Mr. Vikas. Indeed, it's my pleasure to present the niceties of the trial of 26th November, that is the terror attack on Mumbai. The terror attack of 26th November on Mumbai was not an ordinary terror attack. But I would say that it's a classic case of sponsored terrorism. It was not an act of only 10 indoctrinated terrorists. But this was a well-orchestrated, meticulously planned attack against India. These attacks have shown us the new present face of terrorism. These attacks are meticulously planned and ruthlessly executed. I would say it was an urban guerilla warfare. Due to these attacks, billion Indians were mentally and emotionally assaulted.  Now, when I was appointed as a special public professor in this case, the main task was before me that how to complete this memo trial within the shortest possible time. I had an opportunity to conduct the serial Bombay bomb blast case of 1993. That is on 12th March, 1993. Mumbai was attacked by a series of powerful bomb blasts. And for the first time in our country, RDX was used a highly explosive, military explosive material in the said Bombay bomb blast case. But unfortunately, I would say that the serial Bombay bomb blast case had taken about 13 to 14 years for completion of the trial or I would say to book the offends. And therefore, there was a strong feeling because in the terror attack on 26th November, 12 places were targeted by the attackers. We all know what were those places and 12 offends were registered with different police stations from Mumbai city. And therefore, it was not only, I would say it's a legal battle, but in fact it was a big challenge before me how to complete this trial within the shortest possible time. And their friends, I have used for the first time, I have recourse the legal provisions and perhaps that would be for our interest. How to complete such a trial having the enormity of crime, seriousness of crime, magnitude of the crime. But we lawyers are very interesting persons. We write 10,000 word document, but still we call it in the brief. But we know the difference between knowledge and wisdom. Knowledge is to know that tomato is a fruit, but we never include in the fruit salad. Why? Because wisdom is to know not to include in a fruit salad. And therefore, keeping in mind basic this principle, I was thinking, because I have single-handedly conducted this case. Ajmal Kassab was given the legal aid of two eminent lawyers of Mumbai city at the cost of public exchequer. In fact, Ajmal Kassab had asked for a lawyer from Pakistan, but Pakistan government did not exceed his request, did not acknowledge his letter, though we have sent it later to the government of Pakistan. So we have provided two eminent lawyer. They fought for Ajmal Kassab. And very interesting, before turning to the legal aspect of the matter, we had to consider. What is meant by terrorism? There is no internationally agreed definition of terrorism. However, by and large, we can say that those acts which are intended to create fear or those acts which are perpetrated for an ideological goal or those acts which deliberately target the safety of non-combatants is called a terrorism. If I had to explain terrorism in a simple language, then I would say that terrorism is like a pyramid. At the top of the pyramid, there are terrorists, then there is a layer of active conspirators. And below that there are the passive supporters. This construction explains the support base of the terrorism. Therefore, unless such supporters are not brought in the net of the legal action, terrorism cannot be eradicated. Unfortunately, quite often we have seen in number of cases that one country's terrorists are regarded as rather countries' heroes. In modern times, war is an expensive and risky direct war, I would say. It may lead to a nuclear confrontation. It may also escalate a full-fledged pervasive war. Therefore, instead of direct war, some nations, some countries are interested in indirect war, which I would like to call it as a proxy war. So, terrorism is a war waged by proxy. The object of such war, proxy war, to destabilize and weaken the government, it breaks up the social, political and economical order of the victim nation. So, terrorism is an international problem. Most of the countries are now facing this problem of terrorism. But unfortunately, I would say, for many reasons, there is no consensus among different countries for bringing terrorists to justice. Our country, India, has successfully brought a number of terrorists to justice. I have conducted a number of cases in Maharashtra pertaining to the terror attack or fantasies. Now, the question that first cropped up in my mind, why did they attack Mumbai? Why so much killing? Why so much pain to so many innocent people? And what will happen next? These were the four questions which were daunting. And in my mind, and which were asked by every Indian after the terror attack on 26th November. When I spilled the charge sheet, I found that Mumbai Police had cited 3,500 witnesses. Finally remember, the figure was 3,500. I have examined out of these witnesses, 659. Through video conferencing, I have examined four witnesses. And Mumbai Police had filed the charge sheet. On 25th February 2009, the trial judge had framed the charge against the accused Ajwal Kasab because he was the only surviving terrorist. On 6th May 2009, court had framed the charge on 6th May 2009. I have commenced the evidence by examining the first witness on 8th May 2009 and completed a trial on 16th December 2009. So on 8th May, it was on day to day basis. On 8th May 2009, I put the first witness and thereafter I have examined about 659 and completed the evidence. On 16th December 2009, that is within the span of 6 months on 8 to 9 months, I have completed the entire evidence. And the court delivered the judgment. Holding Ajwal Amir Kasab of Pakistan as a guilty of all the offenses. And court has awarded death penalty on 6th May 2010. Thereafter I appeared in the High Court, I conducted a matter. Now a legitimate query may arise in our mind. How I had examined speedily this trial. Kindly remember friends that there is a very one provision in the CRPC that is section 296 of CRPC. Now section 296 of CRPC permits prosecution to lead evidence by way of affidavit if evidence is of formal character. Again a query may arise in our mind. What is meant by a formal character? Criminal procedure code does not define as to what is meant by the evidence of a formal character. Normally such facts are to be formal character about which the accused will have no chance. Now before leading the evidence on affidavit in Kasab trial, I submitted a detailed chart before the court saying that I am dividing some witnesses or a formal character into three groups. The first group which I have met out in the terror attack of 26th November, 166 people have lost their lives. Therefore I have filed the affidavit of the punch witnesses in whose presence the inquest Panchanama went wrong. That was the first category. That is the inquest punch. Then second category I have made that in this attack 234 witnesses where people were injured. I produced the evidence of doctor who had treated those injured persons. Evidence of doctor I have filed their affidavits. Then third category the property worth of rupees 41 crore 72 lakhs was damaged or destroyed on account of the terror attack. I produced the evidence of such servers on affidavit who had assessed the whole damages. Naturally when I filed the affidavit of such people in all I have already given the figure that the evidence of that is the affidavit total witnesses 3659 I have examined about 350 witnesses. Evidence I have taken on affidavit. Of course though I have filed the affidavit I have summoned the copy of all those affidavits to the other side that did to the learned defense council. And I called upon the defense council that if at all they would like to cross examine the evidence of these witnesses who have tender their affidavits we are ready to recall that. We are ready to call them for the cross examination. Defense had also perused those affidavits and they have given about the 50, the affidavit of 50% to whom they would like to cross examine. And accordingly 50 witnesses were recalled. The exemption chief in lieu of the affidavit was dispensed with and only they were the cross examine. So this is a very very unusual provision in CRPC which I have used. Then the next question was to prove the charge of the criminal conspiracy. But before turning to the criminal conspiracy. I would like to tell you the brief facts of the case. The Ajmal Amir Kassab who was a lone surviving terrorist had given the judicial confession before the Metropolitan United States Mumbai. Disclosing as to how criminal conspiracy was hatched amongst themselves. How they started from Karachi. Then when they did reach near Mumbai and how they mercilessly executed the plan. So according to the investigation and according to the evidence of judicial confession of Ajmal Amir Kassab. We found that on 21st November 2008. Ajmal Kassab and nine deceased terrorists and some wanted accused. Left Karachi Pope in one Pakistani ship that is Al Husaini. On 23rd November they started from Karachi on 21st. On 23rd November at about 3pm. When Kassab and nine deceased terrorists. Enter Indian waters. Then came across one Indian fishing traveller MV Kuber. They intercepted MV Kuber. They forcibly entered the Indian fishing trawler Kuber. There were five sailors on board of Kuber. They were from Urbandar Gujarat. Out of those five sailors. Four sailors were forcibly taken into Pakistani ship that is Al Husaini. While the navigator of MV Kuber, Amar Singh Solanki. Was forcibly kept on the board of Kuber. And he was compelled to navigate Kuber towards Mumbai. Then after Pakistani ship Al Husaini left towards Pakistan. Along with the four Indian sailors. Ultimately we found that those four Indian sailors.  When those ten terrorists. Were about three to four nautical miles away from Mumbai. Accused Ajmal Kassab. Beheaded Solanki with a sharp knife. He concealed the dead body in the Kuber itself. Then thereafter we all know. They sat in inflected boat. Rubber speed boat with arms ammunition. And they landed at Badwar park. At 9 p.m. And they attacked and they divided into various groups. Each group was consisting of two persons. One group rushed over the CST railway station. One group consisting of two members attack hotel large. Hotel Taj. Hotel Oberoi, Nariman house. And some at some other places also. So in this way. They carried out the terror attack. They started the terror attack on the night of 26th November. And on 28th all terrorists except. Ajmal Kassab who was caught red handed. The others were done to death. In a counter fire. Now dear friends it is very pertinent to note. That. When the attack was made. They were interacting. With their handlers. Our secret agencies. Had intercepted the conversation of those terrorists. And we found. That. These 10 attackers. Were receiving instruction from. Phone number. Starting from a code. 001. That is US USA code. So with the help of a bi. Immediately we found that. A call from a center was open. In USA. By Pakistani national. They were giving instruction from Karachi. And that call for X. Therefore we are getting the information. That these calls were originated. From Pakistan. I have examined the expert. No. I divided this case into two parts. The first part. That incident disclosing the direct involvement. Of accused. And this is. A big smile. This is the first part. Then second part. That incident disclosing. The involvement of nine terrorist accused. Now in this manner. I have marshal the evidence of each incident. Now after filing of the charge sheet. I still remember that the first day. Was about to open the case. We all know. That under section 226 of CRPC. The public prosecutor has to open his case. By describing. The charge brought. Against the accused. The nature of the offense. And nature of evidence. Which public prosecutor proposes. To lead before the court for proving the guilt of the accused. The address contemplated under section 226 of CRPC. Is not a mere rereading or reproduction. Or explanation of the charge. What is the legislature intention in enacting the provision of section 226 of CRPC. The intention of the legislature. Is very obvious very clear. That. It is a preliminary given to the court. To the judge. So that the court should know. In what manner. The prosecution proposes to unfolded case. Also.  To the accused. That this is the prosecution case. And this is the evidence in our hand. Which we would like to marshal against the accused. The principle of natural justice. In a way. Are also followed in this way. Of course. Under section 226 of CRPC. Marrieds and demerits of the case. Are not to be argued. Or debated. With propriety. I may reproduce. The words of Mr. Justice Crompton. Who had said. That the public prosecutor. Has a prior and the perpetual retainer. On behalf of the truth. And justice. This is the duty cast upon the public prosecutor. Public prosecutor. Should not be a prosecutor. Though he represents state. It is his onerous duty. And legal duty. Pious duty. To assist the court in the albist of justice. And if the public prosecutor found that. That there is no evidence they accuse. He must come forward. And must address the court. About the insufficiency of the evidence. So public prosecutor. Has to play. A very fair role. Is a minister of law and justice. In the whole system of the administration. Of justice. I am reminded. The words of Mr. Churchill. Who had once said. When questioned by somebody. About the future of his nation. And how. He was going to. And how. He was going to brighten the same. Mr. Churchill has said. In one epigrammatic sentence. By peace. If I can. By war. If I must. So. What was the challenge before me. In the whole trial. To establish the guilt of the accused. The first thing. Secondly. Deliberately. With the approval from the court. Prosecution has decided to hold a proceeding. In an open court. Dear friends. I must remind. I must tell you. That the entire proceeding of 26. November trial. Was in the open court. It was not in camera processing. Media processing. Media people were allowed to remain in the prison. Public. Only the lawyers who are concerned with the case. And the senior councils were permitted to sit in the court. To watch the processing. Why we have done. Taken the state. Because we would like to play very fair game fair justice. To a foreigner. Accused. I'm proud to say. That. That our legal system is based on such high enriched principle. That innocence. Is to be presumed until guilt is proved. With this basic current principle. Our court. Has allowed the prosecution prayer. To hold the proceedings. In an open court. Of course. In the orthodox jail. With certain regulation. The court. Passes and this. The security checks were also compulsory. So that the first day came. When I open the case and the section 226. Before I start my opening address. I requested a trial church. That. Here now I would like to open the case. And the section 226. Of the sea apis. The moment I said. I would like to open the case. Ajmal Kasab. Who was in the accused dog. He got up. And told the church. Sir. My nabali. And. Your. You. Can't. What he said. Sir I'm a minor. And according to your Indian law. You cannot. Try this case against me. Say. Why I'm putting this incident. See. This terrorist are also well trained. Not only in handling sophisticated weapons. Arms and memory. Amination. But they were also trained. To some extent. In the laws where they had to. Target. Or attack. So they were knowing. Ajmal Kasab was knowing. Our Indian. Juvenile law. And therefore he made a forward appeal to the judge. And we all know. According to juvenile justice act. If. Accused text such a plea. Then the court has to hold the inquiry. And the juvenile justice act. The movement. The movement. To display. Of course we were knowing. That. Was 21 years old. He himself told to the. The Metropolitan. When his confession was recorded. And then he was apprehended. He told the jail authority. Yes. So accordingly. The matter was adjourned on that day. Doctors team was called upon. Government hospital doctors. Had taken the exchange. Of his bones. Osification test. Were carried out. And after three days. The report came. That his age must be. In between. 21 to 25 years old. So. This once it's clear that he's the major. Then of course. I started. Examining the witnesses. Indeed. Has retracted his judicial confession. Making an election. Making an making allegation. That he was forced to give such. Confession. He was ill treated by the police. And therefore he had given the. And they remember. So retracted. Can he retracted the confession though. Of course it may be on the advice of his. Lawyers. But he retracted the judicial. When I was examining 141. Witness. Again got up. And he said that. He would like to. Plead the guilty. The judge said. Are you pretty guilty? Voluntarily. He said yes. I would like to play guilty. Again asking. Yeah. That. Pressurized. Police torture. Yeah. He said no. May marry. Willingly. May. Admit. The court. What do you have to say. Sir. He has retracted his judicial. Confession. Voluntarily. And if his court is satisfied. That he's. He didn't guilty. Voluntarily without any extended. His constitution or force or ill treatment. The court may record it. Good had started the report. He started giving his gay. The whole crying. For about one and a half. Take. After recording. His entire admission. In the open court. Good asked me. Still do you want to proceed further. Or you would like to close the evidence. Kindly remember. This was a very. Very. I would say. That. The moment. As well. Has completed his entire national. Narration. Disclosing where from he came. How they mercilessly and all this carried out the attack. And all these things. The court asked me this. Very. Pinpoint question. Well, Mr. Prosecutor. Has pleaded guilty. He has admitted his guilt. In the open court. Do you want to proceed further. Or you'd like to close the evidence. If you're closing the evidence. I will fix the matter for the judgment. Dear friends. I was hearing what he was telling the court. And what he was pleading. The court. Within a fraction of a second. I told the judge. Sir. No. I'm not admitting his plea. I would like to marshal. The evidence. Against. Immediately the movement I said. Electronic media. Has carried this news. There was a debate. On channel. Why the prosecutor is. Not accepting the guilt. Why the prosecutor wants to proceed further. Without knowing the panelist. Were talking. But dear friends. What has been admitted. Though he had admitted. That he came from Pakistan. He was not accepting. His role. That he fired bullets. On innocent person at railway station. What he admitted. That his deceased colleague. Abu Ismail. Who was accompanying him. He fired bullets.  Salaskar. But he was also with him. So this is very very ticklish style. He was taken. He had accepting his role. As not in the primary. Of the conspirator. That he came from Pakistan. Because. I was interested to watch. Mumbai Bollywood movies. He was going. Bollywood city. And therefore he was fascinated. By Mumbai. And therefore he came to Mumbai. Along with the other people. But he was not knowing. Their exact plans. And he did not open the fire. Though actually. At CST station. Which captured the whole incident. We had produced all those. Evidence technical evidence in the court. He was laughing. He was smiling at the time of the opening. The fire with AK-47 rifle. So. Why I did. Why I did not accept. I did not accept it. Because. At the time of the sentence. Death penalty. And given. Who has played a major part in the crime. This is a death penalty. The rarest of rare crime. Rare of rare punishment. And it is just to be awarded to such a person. Who has played a major role in the crime. Ajmal Amir Kassab. Celebrately taking a secondary role in the whole incident. Showing some easy. No sir. And I accepted. His plea. I would not have the position to ask for the death penalty. But those poor panellists. Who came on the channel. Various eminent lawyers also came on the panelist. And they were raising the question. Why. Public procedure did not accept his plea. So what I would like to emphasize. That public procedure. Has to take certain decision. He can't say. And he can't say that you have to take instruction from my police commissioner. I had to think over. No. Public procedure has to be very alert. While conducting. Such important trial. And every criminal trial. Why this trial I would say. So friends. The main challenge before me. To establish criminal conspiracy. So how it was very clear to us. That's. These 10 terrorists came from Pakistan. The main criminal. Conspiracy was hatched outside India. That is. That is. Happy. And those are the people. So. It was very clear. That the terror attack on 26. November. Was an over tax. In persons of the criminal conspiracy. Hatch outside India. Their friends. How to prove the criminal conspiracy. That was again. Very important issue. Now. I would say. Of the Indian penal code. Defines criminal conspiracy. When two or more person agreed to do. Or cost to be done an illegal act. Or legal act in the illegal manner. They are said to constant criminal cost. This is the statutory definition of criminal. Conspiracy. If I had to define in a simple language. I would say. That conspiracy means. Breathing together. Two persons cannot breathe together. Unless. They put their heads together. This is a simple language. Of a criminal conspiracy. So. Just to the criminal conspiracy. Is that there must be an agreement. And such agreement. Must be before. Before the act is done. Now. How conspiracy. Is to prove. That is a very important question. The criminal case. It is very seldom. To have a direct evidence on criminal conspiracy. However. Conspiracy. Can be proved. By two ways. The first ways. It is proved by inferences. Logical. Irresistible inferences. And not. By direct evidence. Therefore. The evidence. In respect of the conspiracy. Is always indirect. Or inferential. If there is a corroboration. For some earlier events. Thereafter. If we find that. Corroboration to some latter events. And the events in between the two are left. Uncorroborated. Then we have to go by method. Of logical influences. Inference and conjectures. Are two different things. Friends. What is permitted under law. Is only the irresistible inferences. Or conclusion. From certain facts. For which. Seelogism. In logic. Has to be applied. Let us take a famous. Of quoted. Seelogism. In logic. Seelogism in logic. I would like to give a simple illustration. All men are mortal. All kings are men. Now. These first two equations. Are universally true. All men are mortal. All kings are men. Therefore from these first two equations. Third irresistible inferences. Third irresistible inferences. All kings are mortal. All men are. Mortal. All kings are men. And therefore all kings are mortal. This is the third statement. All kings are mortal. Is a necessary consequence. Of the first two statements. There cannot be any other. Inference. Whatever. This is what is called as a logical consequence. This is what is called. Inference. And that is what is known as a reliable. Circumstance. In evidence. This is the one way of proving the criminal. Second way. Conspiracy. Is always to be inferred. Or gathered. From the facts of past. As well as. Present. What we find today. We can easily understand. As to what was yesterday. So. This is the way. I would say. That present. Is the child of the past. Past is to be inferred from the present. Past is to be inferred from the present. Past is to be inferred from the present. And future is to be anticipated. From the present. Whatever we do later on. Is always the confirmation. Is always the confirmation. With whatever we decide earlier. With whatever we decide earlier. Future confers the past. Future confers the past. This is called an internal proof. This is called an internal proof. It is said in English. That if winter comes. Can spring be far behind. Can spring be far behind. On the same analogy I would like to say. On the same analogy I would like to say. That if conspiracy is hatched. That if conspiracy is hatched. Then the execution of crime. Is far behind certainly not. Therefore. Execution of crime. Was itself a confirmation of the fact. Was itself a confirmation of the fact. That there was conspiracy also. That there was conspiracy also. Now. Coming evening. Cast their shadow. Before. So conspiracy is the shadow. While the murder. So. Whether there was any criminal conspiracy or not. Well he will be decided. With reference to what happened subsequently. That is acts committed. In furthest of the criminal conspiracy. Now. So criminal conspiracy what we had to prove. In the. In the present case of 26th November. Not only on the basis. Of the judicial confession. Of Azmal Amir Kassab. But also on certain. Forensic evidence. Like. The investigating agency. Has this certain. Material. From. The possession of this 10 terrorists. This material. I don't want to describe the whole material. These materials. Unethically. Irresistibly. Showing that. They were made in Pakistan. They were made in Pakistan. This is number one. Number two. They were interacting with their handlers. They were interacting with their handlers. In an ongoing terror attack. In an ongoing terror attack. And that. The whole conversation was intercepted. And. The third point is. The third point is. That. Why did it kill people. Without any object. Whether they were mad. No. See. They kept certain hostages. In Hotel Taj. And of course. Those hostages. Were ran away. The moment they got an opportunity. Ran away from the place. And thereafter. They disclose the whole thing to the Mumbai police. Now this is one aspect. That was before me. Was to establish the case of. Waging war. Against the government. One may wonder. As to why and how. I say that. The terror attack on 26 November in Mumbai. Constituted. Waging war against government of India. Their friends. The term waging war. Contemplated. In Indian penal code. Is not confined to the term war. As we understand it in the normal course. Section 121 of the Indian penal code. Defines the term waging war. As. Whoever wages war. Against government of India. Or attempts to waste such war. Shall be punished with death. Or imprison for life. The next section. 121. A of IPC. Makes a conspiracy. To commit the offense of waging war. Punishable intersection. 122. Of IPC. Makes the collection of arms. With the intention of waging war. It was argued. In the trial code. On behalf of. That. How prosecution. Saying and alleging. That attacks. On the hotel over. Hotel Taj. Nariman house. CST station. Then Kama hospital. We're not the sovereign authority of the government of India. All these places. We're not the places. Directly. Concerning any installation. Of the. Government of India. And therefore. It is. And therefore. It was argued on behalf of. America. That the said attacks. Or said acts of terror attack. Is accepted as a. Waging war. Then every terrorist act. Amount to a waging of war. Now the question is. What is meant by. Waging war. The initial idea of the war was that. It can be. It can be only between two nations. During earlier days. The rival troops. Have to face each other. There must be a combat. Between them. This is called as a conventional war. But. Now. The technique of warfare. Has undergone a vital change. An. Account of. Intercontinental. Intercontinental ballistic missiles. One. Can. By remote control. Cause any destruction. To any other nation. By sitting in your own nation. In short. The concept of. Waging war. Has undergone a vital change. There cannot be a common. Warground nowadays. There cannot be now. Two troops. Facing each other. And the fighting war. Waging of war. In modern times. Is an expensive. And risky. It may lead to a nuclear. Confrontation. It may escalate in a full place. Pervasive war. Therefore nowadays. Instead of direct war. Some countries may involve in indirect war. In direct war. Which we can justify called as a proxy war. Which I already said. So. Supreme code has described. Such terrorist attack. Such terrorist attack. As a proxy war. Because they started. On their country. By attacking some foreign land. This is the war in absence here. Justice Rama Swami. Of honorable supreme court. Has observed in Karthar Singh versus state of Punjab. Has observed in Karthar Singh versus state of Punjab. Than the world terrorism. Than the world terrorism. Has become now associated with ideology of overthrowing. A gomen. By resorting to a violent. Fear. Inspiring method. Justice Rama Swami. Has coined two terms. Namely. Firstly proxy war. Namely unconventional war. The object of. Unconventional war. Is to destabilize. And weaken the government. Break up social, political and economic order. Break up social, political and economic order. In parliament attack. The honorable supreme court. Has. In state forces. Has said that. In waging of war. There need not be. Any idea substituting. A 13th comment. In short. I would like to say. Than the term waging war. Waging of war. Is not to be used in the narrow sense of the term. Because. The very concept of war. Has undergone a wide change. In the present case. That is of terror attack. Of 26th November. The attacks of Mumbai. On 26th November. Never effected. Out of any personal animus. Out of any personal animus. Ajwala Amir Kassab. And his nine deceased colleagues. Were not the enemy of any person who were killed. Were not the enemy of any person who were killed. They simply could not have been any personal animus. Yet. All they did various atrocities. Why. Why. Was not a soloist and terrorist. Were given very drastic military training. In Pakistan. For days together. Why is that they were equipped with the GPS and mobile. Why did they come to Mumbai. Why did they attack Mumbai. The only. Irresistible and logical. Answer. We can give is that. They wanted to do something against India as a. Nation. They did not have any personal. They did not have any personal reason to do the same. But why Mumbai only? This question has been answered by Ajmal Kasab in the judicial conflict. He gave two, he gave two replies. Firstly, he says, to bring pressure upon the government of India, liberating Kashmir from India. And secondly, to destroy Mumbai being a rich and economically powerful city so that foreigners should be desisted from coming to Mumbai and making investment in Mumbai. We prove five facts in the case. Firstly, the terror attack of 26th November was aimed at India and Indians. Secondly, they killed foreigners because the killing of foreigners on Indian soil would deter foreign countries to make any investment in India. Thirdly, attackers were foreign national. Fourthly, attackers were armed with prohibited weapons and use RDX-laden bombs. Lastly, the accused persons had conspired to topple the whole administration with a view to capturing Kashmir by spreading the reign of terror not in the city of Mumbai, but in the big cities of India. So in this manner, we marshal the whole evidence. I need not go to the other technical evidence. But after establishing the entire guilt against Ajmal Amir Kasad when the court has sent in the gallows, we found that the trial is not being completed. There is not full justice because the main key conspirator who had planned the whole attack, that is Hafiz Sahil, the founder of Lashkarat Toiba or nowadays they are calling it the Jamaat Udawa or then his other colleagues, Lakfi, they are free. And after the execution of Kasad, the government of India sent one of our official commission to Pakistan. I was one of the members of its commission. We went to Islamabad. We stayed there for seven days. We interacted with the Pakistani Home Ministry. We told them, look, this is the evidence against the perpetrators who had discriminated of conspiracy there in your soil. You have to prosecute. That trial is still pending. It is in camera. We don't know what is happening in Pakistan. Their people, their prosecutor came to Mumbai. We have given our witnesses, their judicial commission came. They examined our some witness. Again, they went back. India has shown that yes, we'll cooperate. During our interaction with their authorities, they said that we want an evidence. It's a very funny thing that criminal conspiracy was hatched on their soil. Still they were asking the evidence from us. We said that we have given the evidence about the over attack. You had to find out the evidence and a criminal conspiracy. But they said, no, that you had to find out. Their friends, after coming back from Pakistan, I found that David Hiddley, before the terror attack of Mumbai, he visited Mumbai. He took out the pictures, various pictures, photos of the targeted places and send it to Lashkaratoyba for finalizing the terror attack. So he was no conspirator. But David Hiddley had given a plea bargain in Chicago court and he admitted his guilt. Chicago's court session court has awarded him 35 years sentence and it was agreed between US and David Hiddley that he would give evidence in India as well in the Pakistan. We have taken the advantage. I have taken the copy of the plea bargain agreement. And we have decided to examine David Hiddley as a vividness by tendering a pardon to him as an approver. And dear friends, I'm glad to say that we have examined David Hiddley and we have taken out all the details about the criminal conspiracy. We have sent the whole evidence to the Pakistani authority, but they did not act upon it. But David Hiddley had given a certain sensitive revelation with the mobile numbers of certain army officers, their connection with the Lashkaratoyba and how the terror attack of 26th number war or just by Lashkaratoyba with the connivance of the Pakistani army officers. This is a pleasant face. So dear friends, what I would like to submit and what I would like to say finally that while pleading the case in any criminal either as a prosecutor or the defense lawyer, one has to consider well in advance what are the merits and demerits in our case? Whether legally speaking, we can overcome all the demerits of the case or not. What are the leculage in the investigation? How to recall? Say while conducting many cases, not only of the terror case, while conducting other similar criminal crimes, I found a number of times that police officer making an investigation while recording the statement of a witness under section 160 of CRPC. Certain things are not to be stated by the witness. And when the public prosecutor takes out certain things from the witness, then the defense says, no, this is an omission amounting contradiction. He did not disclose this fact before the police while when the police had interrogated him and while taking down his statement. Maybe an omission, but public prosecutor, when the when public prosecutor examine the witness, it is called an interrogation by the public prosecutor. When police officer interrogates the witness and record his statement. So in a way, when the public prosecutor examine the witness in the court of law, I would say that the interrogation of a witness by the public prosecutor. So the public prosecutor can ask many questions. And it's my practice. I can tell my junior friends that if you examine the witness, either as a prosecution witness or a defense witness, if you find that or if you find out the certain things which are not been taken down and recorded by the police, you can certainly ask and request the judge to record this question and so forth. So that you can argue. Whether this question was inconsistent with the story or not. Suppose, for example, I would like to give a simple illustration, then I will close my also patients. Suppose witness gives a statement saying that in the midnight, the assailant came and he attacked with the help of sword on the deceased person and he ran away and I have seen that accused. His name is so phala phala or his description is like this. This is the statement in the square 161. Now, when the incident, admittedly when the incident had occurred in the midnight, the police statement is totally silent as to how he could see in the midnight. There is no reference of any electric light or pole light, street light, nothing, nothing. So source of light is totally absent in the police. Therefore, the public prosecutor can make a request to the judge saying that, sir, my further part of the evidence may be recorded in the question and so forth. Dear friends, section 276 of the CRPP permits, allows the judge to record some narration in the question and so forth. So you can request the judge to replying question path. The public prosecutor has to put the simple question. Then admittedly when the incident had occurred in midnight and it is your contention that you had seen the assailant, may I know how you could see the assailant when there was a midnight, then admittedly, immediately, read his reply. Yes, I saw his face because they're on the street light. So defense naturally is going to the number. Defense is bound to say. Then defense, you did not mention this fact to the police. When he interrogated, police did not ask me the simple explanation. Therefore, while asking and putting an omission or contradiction, dear friends, it is always common mistake of many lawyers that while asking and bringing an omission on the record, they never ask the witness. They never give them an opportunity to witness as to why you did not state this fact before the police. Opportunity is to be given while proven contradiction under section 145 of the evidence act when witness attention is to be invited to the police statement. Similarly, one should not be happy that witness admits that I did not state police. But why you did not state me from the police? That is bound to be us. So principle of natural justice are required to be followed. Dear friends, I think this is more than sufficient for us. And I'm very kind of you to all to have the patience sharing. Thank you very much. After marathon session speaking, I think that 200 ml water will not be suffice. But the way you got water, we all got the session, which was quite fascinating. And I will ask Mr. Professor Dr. Mohan to share his knowledge because he's our knowledge partner. Yes, sir. Very kind of you. Thank you very much. Padmasri, Ujwalnikam, we in fact applied from Krista Jayanti College of Law during the pandemic one. And we could not make it possible and hearty congratulations to Vikas sir and very kind of you for exceeding to our request to deliberate on the very, very, very apt subject of Ajmal Kasapur, the child of a terrorist attack. And my small query to you is to explain the significance of the substantial variation in dealing with the terrorist cases that is shifting of the owners of proof to the accused. And will it in any way reduce the burden of the prosecution in dealing with this kind of cases? Frankly speaking, under certain special laws, the burden was in some cases at certain contingency was on the shoulder of the accused. But all these special acts are being abolished for one of the reasons. Like example, terrorist act also, and the other acts also, proto act also is concerned prevention of terrorism and so on. But then we had to follow up on the regular provisions that is burden of proof section 101 to 106 and 107 to 8. Now, if any fact is within the special knowledge of the accused, then only the burden shifts on the accused. Now, therefore, you see, ultimately, our legal system is an advisable system. So, everything is to be proved by the prosecution beyond reasonable doubt. Though I am working as a public process since number of years, I still maintain and I will still say that it should be on the prosecution to prove the guilt. You see, ultimately, the police machinery, investigating agency agency is interested only in booking the offender and to send the charge in challenge in the court of law. But public procedure has to play a fair game. And therefore, I would say that it's good that the prosecution has to establish. But in terrorist cases also, at some time, we find many problems to prove particular case beyond reasonable doubt against the terrorists. Because especially in Qasab's matter, we found though, of course, we have collect, there were the eyewitnesses. But you see, there was a move. There was some people were contending senior cops also. They filed separate, separate charges, 10 charges. So that for each incident for Hotel Oberoi, Hotel Taaz, there are eyewitnesses. So, we will hang the Qasab immediately. But no, it's not a question of hanging Qasab. It's a question of establishing the criminal constancy. Where from they came? What was their objective behind the terror attack? What was their object behind the terror attack? So, we had to point out not only we should not be satisfied that Qasab should be hanged. But we had to prove the whole world, how the India being the victim of this terrorism. That is the reason. So, so, so great. And now there's one more small observation in the query. Media takes advantage of the situation. Nowadays, it's in a way, you dropping advantage and conducting trial even without having proper know-how and putting some somebody who is not not at all consent and service also stating that there was some discussion conducted or trial conducted in any encodations. And how far is it tenable for the media to do that when actually the proceedings are going on before the courts. And yeah, yeah, unfortunately, we don't have any such law which would prevent this which would prevent this media from reporting the court cases. So, even the Supreme Court on the number of occasion this issue cropped up before the Supreme Court also give whether media is to be restrained or not to be restrained. Say, if trial is in the cameras to be held in the camera, then certainly media is to be demand from reporting. But another question because we had a strong discussion so far as while conducting a trial whether media has to be banned or whether media has to be controlled or whether media should be advised to have a self-restraint. I'm very happy to say that in Mumbai, the media had a self-restraint. They did not report any such fishy thing which would have been detrimental to the prosecution or detrimental to the interest of the state government or the government of India. So, no doubt if media is properly handled, then I think they are very responsible people. They won't go by any such mischief. And another small query, our criminals jurisprudence of the system apparently it allows the accused to lead a comfortable life in the jail delaying and taking every such advantage of the system finding out the loopholes or such issues as Sir was rightly pointing out at the very first instance, he was raising a plea that though it is proven to be false, he was raising that he was a minor and the court does not have under starting from the preliminary objection down the line up to the award of death penalty and the hanging of that. Till then, he's comfortably fed and there is an attempt to delay the process and that is permitted and can there be a remedy for getting the justice it should not be hurried and worried, but it should not be inordinately delayed. See, we have a specific provision section 309 of the CRPC and it says very clear that trial must go on day two basis. But this is not in principle, it is followed for number of reasons. Maybe the prosecutor lawyer prosecutor may not be ready with the case or many time witnesses were not present or number of occasioned defense is interested and in a serial bomb by bomb blast case, I was very unhappy because the trial was lingering for more than the 13, 12 years. See, in an argument in the open court, I said that Pakistan is carrying the K2 operation for K for Kashmir, Liberia and K for Kallistan, whereas the accused in this case are D2 operation, D and delay and derail the trial, delay and derail the trial, D2 operation. So, this is the problem that is cropped up. Unfortunately, in our this legal stain system, the ultimate, of course, in number of cases in the stations court, I have I got the debt penalty, but you see, the president award, a president confirm it, but thereafter even also it was not executed for number of reasons. And that is the reason as to why then High Court admits the appeal of the criminal fugitive and then the debt penalty being state. So, one question is, what is the significance of substantial variation while dealing a terrorist case and the other words, especially in respect of the shifting of owners of proof? There is no, there is no nothing, law is now very common to all the cases, even while conducting a case against the terrorist or even an ordinary criminal, the burden of proof is always same on the shoulder of the prosecution. It is shifted only and when, when the accused takes a specific defense like Alibi, if accused takes the defense of Alibi, then it is for the accused to prove it, beyond doubt. So, the burden of proof normally in the Porta Act, in the terrorist Tata Act, the burden was on the shoulder, it goes on in certain cases, contingency on the shoulder of the accused, but now that provision is not there, that law is not there. So, it is always on the prosecution to prove beyond doubt. Sir, we have Mr. Basuraj, the another legal partner of Daksha Legal, he's also Member Bar Council of Karnataka. Okay. He wants to share his knowledge. Okay. Yeah, Mr. Basuraj. There's no question of sharing knowledge. Sir, let me tell you this, in my 33 years of practice, I consider you as a role model. Thank you. Now, the junior advocates ask the question and also they would ask the question, why this criminal is treated with such royalty giving protection and all that? And the two things have taken the Indian judicial system to the global level, that we are believed in rule of law and the absolute followings of the criminal justice system. This is where the India has reached the pinnacle, the one is the trial of President and second one is the midnight trial, midnight hearing it by the horrible Supreme Court of India. Therefore, I always consider you as my role model. Thank you. Village, that I am being a part of a knowledge sharing group which has arranged this. So, thank you very much, sir. I am deeply honored by you today. Thank you. Mr. Basuraj, before we part for the day, kindly update the tomorrow's webinar title. Thank you Vikas. So, we are just parting for the day, just we are uprising the people for the tomorrow's session. Okay. Yeah, Mr. Basuraj. Yeah, for the students of constitutional law, the recent judgment of the Kenyan Supreme Court on the basic structure, doctrine has opened a new debate and new discussions all over the country. In this regard, a seminar tomorrow, Mr. Gautam Bhatia and Sijoria, Mr. Sijoria, both advocates of the Animal Supreme Court of India, will be discussing as the panelists and also lecturers. The seminar is at 6 p.m. tomorrow, Sunday evening, 6 p.m. So, I request all of you to again join the seminars as you have joined today with absolute majority and absolute, you know, the attention which you have restored. So kindly join tomorrow evening, 6 p.m., the seminar on Kenyan High Court judgment on basic structure with the speakers Mr. Gautam Bhatia and Mr. Sijoria, Adokates, Supreme Court of India. So, one thing a lot of people do want to ask, once they find, like Mr. Basuraj said, that you are one of the institution which every young lawyer models and looks upon you, what tip would you give someone to become a good lawyer? What are the key five takeaways, what he should take number one, to become a good student of law because as a lawyer also you have to be student of law. Number two, how to sustain the media pressure, how to dissipate facts and dissect in the right way, like what you said. You have to also look to the future vision, what could arise and how you build up that procedure. What are your five takes for that, how to make a mark within the society by doing well? Mr. Vikas, I think we have done a long marathon session today and these five key points, it's very, I can't say, only there will be a five key points, but only in one epigrammatic sentence, I would say that we should treat always as a student of law. So even at this age, I am learning so many things from my junior friends. So you must keep your mind in such a mood or you have to turn it into such a fashion that you must acquire knowledge, I would say, and this not acquiring the knowledge from the various sources. So what I would like to tell my junior friends that if you are to conduct one case, then you go from one point to a point A to point Z, you have to study every aspect and then you have to anticipate in what way the other side is going to attack. When I hold the extension chief, I always not only concentrate on the statement of the police, but I also text in mind that as to how the defense is going to attack this man. So what are the loopholes in my quotes? So we have to consider from the other angle also. If you'll cultivate your mind in that fashion, then perhaps you will have the good mastery of the law. That's all. Thank you very much, Mr. Vikas. Thank you, sir. I understand it was a marathon session, but as they say that you have succeeded in the marathon and the gold medal is yours. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.


Hello. Okay, great. Awesome. Thank you, Cam, and I seriously love it that you are on brand. It's awesome So just a quick bit about pixel palace Oh, actually, no, let me just start with a bit about my talk first of all. This talk is all about perspective Like Cam just said, there's a few people in this room that have worked on fifty thousand dollar WordPress sites I'm guaranteeing there's a probably a lot that are like, holy moly That's a lot of money for a WordPress site So I'm just out of interest who thinks that fifty thousand dollars is a lot for a WordPress site Yeah, and who thinks it's not much Yeah, and who says it depends it depends. Yeah me it totally depends, right? And so today I'm going to talk about why it depends and hopefully answer the question at least from our perspective of a Small agency in the space about what goes into a fifty thousand dollar site and why it's really good value in the right circumstances So Yeah chatting about this topic to lots of people you get a lot of different opinions on it There's two parts to it One two parts to a high value website in my opinion one is the stuff you can see so design dev build functionality stuff like that But the other bits a little bit more abstract and it's about value-based pricing So I'm going to dive into both those things today in the talk But just to recap a bit about me and pixel palace So like cam said those who I don't know if anyone saw my talk last year, but I kind of Dived right into my life story a bit in terms of humanizing the brand and If you didn't see it the video is up on WordCamp TV. I'm not going to go into all this again now but Yeah, really interesting. I started in web after my glittering music career ended And I started out building business catalyst sites actually in 2007 ish And I was building sites for about 500 bucks when I started. I had a few contacts from my music industry Stuff so I was getting to work on some cool things just from home. I just had my first baby And at the time I was like talking to a friend on my couch when we first when I first started and I was like Imagine if I could earn 500 bucks a week from this this would be oh my god amazing And I think at that time I charged like some three grand for an e-commerce site and I thought I've made it that was it This was freaking unreal So it was about 2011 I found a pixel palace after that and in about 2011 we moved to being WordPress specific And now 12 years on we specialize in strategic marketing and custom WordPress in particular To talk in terms of price our custom sites range from about the 20 grand mark start point up to a hundred thousand dollars It'd be the biggest one we've done and we're a small team there's Seven as of last week. I'm currently scaling the business, but for a while there was only three Now it's been five for a bit and now we're seven so exciting times So I'm going to talk about some sites today And I am not saying that any of these sites or the sites on our portfolio or these clients paid $50,000 that is not what I'm saying But I think it's important to show some examples of some functionality and things that we built that are examples of things that go into a high-value custom site So some of our clients at pixel palace include Businesses like women's agenda, which is a large news site out of New South Wales We have done quite a few jobs for RSPCA over the years. We've got another one on the boil at the moment and Particularly their humane food division We launched travel bootcamp this year, which was a really great custom site for a bunch of travel Instagram a blogger influences that run a really fantastically large Event every year internationally to teach people how to make money from traveling and we've done quite a few travel sites So big complex African safari sites. We've done a couple things like that. So lots of content lots of pulling of stuff multilingual blah blah blah so That's the sort of examples of work that we do So what goes into a high value site? Well, obviously Design and development and I think most people think that that's what we do and it is I mean, that's the basics, right? The foundations everyone does that But this is from our agency perspective. It's much more than that So we include things like custom components is a big one in adding value I know speaking some of the talks over the last few days have really talked about some of the more custom stuff that people are doing in WordPress So that's a massive value add and one of the bits I'm going to dive into in a bit more detail and show some examples of the stuff that we've built It's UX and UI so strategic design And it's using our design experience combined with data and strategy to design a website that actually has goals in mind So it's strategic and it's not just pretty pictures Training and handover so management of the site afterwards so the back-end Architecture huge value in that and can be very time-consuming in planning As well as customer service. So Pixel Palace were really big on the customer experience of clients working with us So that's another big value add and then finally strategy and planning huge huge amount of time can go into strategy and planning on a high-value site Because there's often a lot to work with like a marketing team and a business or just lots of content and Lots of things to keep in mind To lay foundations for a successful project So this stuff is just the ticket to the game stuff, right? Like every agency should be doing this most freelancers would be doing some of this if not all of this as well It's a really good place to start obviously But I'm going to just look at this From a client perspective as well because this is part of the thing about adding Value and how you start getting up into higher value in the space of web So from a client perspective on a web project, they see all these same things It's all the same things, but they have a different meaning to clients and a different level of importance So like design they see designers, you know, it's gonna make me look cool If I'm going to speak value to clients in this space I they want to know that this is going to make them look awesome and their competitors are going to go Wow, okay. That's really cool They're awesome. Will this make me look awesome dev lots of clients even big corporates don't understand dev They don't understand the technical side of it. So their concern is this is going to work I have no idea in this space. Is it going to be fast? Is it going to be good? Are they doing it the right way? I don't know so value add there in terms of communicating that Custom components. Can I have something unique? I've got this idea for really helping clients understand What we do or finding this information easily Can I have something custom on my site that my competitors don't have? UX UI for them is will this convert? Am I going to make more sales? Is it going to work? Training and handover can we manage this in-house? I'm investing all this money and the last website we had We can't update anything without calling the web company This is a massive concern and a huge value add if you can speak to the problem of the client in terms of Yes, you'll be able to manage this in-house as long as we invest the time in making sure that we've set the back end up properly for you And lastly the strategy Making sure the investment is going to be worth it So being able to show that they're going to get ROI on it because we've laid some foundations That are based on real facts and real data and real user information There's one other big value add I think that's often overlooked by Agencies but clients in particular and that's this giving a shit so the Attention to detail in the projects and having an in-depth understanding of the client and business and the objectives and Having the whole team across that and having the whole team invested in outcomes Takes time and time equals money. This is a huge realization for me in the early days because I was What many people probably in this room will recognize freelance hell, which was I'm a massive people pleaser I want everyone to think I'm awesome and I want to deliver at a high level and I was working on clients that didn't understand that and didn't value that and weren't paying enough for me to be able to Spend the time or the energy that's involved in really giving a shit and so that was a big problem And you need budget to be able to have time to care is my point And I think it's really important for clients to understand that too It's a big part of our education with clients at pixel palaces that in terms of value. It's a hard thing to put a Dollar price on but it does add to the success of the project It adds to how fun it is to work on the project throughout with the company that you're working on And you know, it really speaks to that value-based pricing So the other bit of a high value site is this whole thing of custom versus template and I think There's a real need for some education. I think it's getting better I've seen some awesome stuff to this weekend on some of the custom stuff I know I loved Alex from frame all the stuff you're doing in ACF with you guys So that's what we're doing too and I think lots of people In the public or even in marketing don't understand what's possible in a custom WordPress this topic came from a At the time when they put the call out for speakers for this and I was trying to think of a topic to submit I had an interaction with A new marketing manager at a potential new client that we were looking to work with. They're a big a nice boutique alcohol brand And we've been in talks with them for about six months working out the project This someone in the C-suite had worked with us on another project at another company and was really really impressed and really wanted us and the new marketing manager got hired internally at their end and came on board and She rang me on her second day and said I don't want to I don't want to use you guys And I'm like, okay Well, great. That's been six months of talking to these people But okay, why because I don't want WordPress So, okay. All right. So why don't you want WordPress because I don't want to template? I don't want I don't this has to look amazing. I don't want to template I was like my god, so we spent 40 minutes of me trying to educate her She really didn't want to listen and we pulled the plug I just went I'm not working on this if you literally can come into a company this size and not understand the difference between Custom versus template and also what is possible then we are not working together So done finished So I think there's a huge amount of education. I thought this would be a good thing to talk on Especially because I know one of the word camp attendees are marketing people or maybe not high-level devs that are working in big Enterprise WordPress companies You know, you might be freelancers or you might be marketing or content or business owners And you might not realize that there's so much you can do in a custom WordPress. It's amazing So other some of the other bits that are really cool about custom stuff is being able to strategically design So we start with a blank figma file on every job. We start from scratch Which lets us design something strategic, you know, great user experience great user interface It can have the marketing message. We can do really creative stuff. We can think about mobile We can think about user journeys and all that stuff. We're not jamming things into a preset thing We can pretty much the world is our oyster The other bit of it is, you know, a custom build. There's nothing you don't need super light Really, we don't pile in a heap of plug-ins trying to make stuff happen You're not probably in a theme that's got a whole heap of stuff that you don't need So, you know more secure like we've heard over the weekend, but also just faster Another big value add in these bigger sites is the streamlined administration in a custom site Again, the stuff that Alex was talking about with the ACF That's hugely valuable. Most clients when we deliver them one of these sites to them with that built into it Their minds blown at what they can do with dragging stuff around and adding new rows and adding new pages with a page builder type functionality that they can't break In the look of their custom design that we designed for them That takes time and a lot of planning to get it well done and well executed and then execute But it's super super valuable because the time spent by Administration in-house at these big companies with marketing teams that might change over all the time It's exponentially expensive if they can't use it Properly and hand on that knowledge easily and the last bit is custom components So this is one of the bits I'm going to dive into a bit and just show you some of the stuff that we Have done over the last few years in our custom WordPress sites It's things like directories and listings Membership directories and paid membership directories complex content management using taxonomies and custom post types and ACF highly filterable content on the front end Complex gravity stuff and then again the customized admin and custom page builder functionality So some examples this Actually, this site is really quite old. It's one of our really old ones But I think it's a really great example of something that we built Where the value is greater than the sum of the parts Because this was a directory for RSPCA. It's part of their choose wisely.org.au site which is a Listing of venues that you can make you can search for a venue or restaurant cafe if you want to go somewhere that has humane food choices So has humane eggs pork chicken, whatever So it's a geo location directory Which they had before they had a clunky old one, but it worked. It was just a plug-in into a theme So we went back custom-designed the interface of that But the biggest bit that I want to talk about today was the submission of a business listing So we created a simple gravity form. It's nothing. It's nothing that crazy where people can submit all of the details of the business venue And at the bottom, it's got questions about their food choices. So they can choose, you know, yes We do the eggs. Yes, we don't do we don't use humane chicken, but we do use humane pork Submit off it goes to RSPCA. What that does in the back end is create a draft listing in the directory So it's actually creating a post in the custom post type with all of that stuff already Formatted ready to be published straight into the directory with no untouching anything And then RSPCA get the notification saying someone supplied the admin logs in they go check the listing and just check that It's all legit. They might ring them But more often than not they can see from online that it's all okay And the biggest bit is the commitment section. So this bit down the bottom here where asked the questions in the back end It lets RSPCA the biggest problem they had in admin was that they time-consumingly had to research Whether or not people tick the right boxes and it was legit and then manually set up the listing in the website Now they can just see what they answer for those questions and tick the box either there on the way or humane food all the way Which means they're completely compliant or they're only half compliant Publish and that's straight into the directory the ones that are humane food all the way get the highlighted listing because in the green and the other ones just Plane listings in order of geo location closest to wherever you searched So super simple but added a huge amount of value to the RSPCA team in terms of admin. So It's pretty cool Another example was this site that we built Mid last year. It's massive content African safari site multilingual in German and English just to add to the complexity It's basically features a lot of interactive and complex content management using taxonomies and custom post types and categories so this site has Sections for safaris accommodation listings countries regions training adventures and all of the content cross-pollinates in both languages Across all different parts of the site. So you can pull in content from everywhere Basically using the categories and taxonomies and stuff so It also features a really cool custom element one of the custom elements is heap There's too many to go into today, but this one was cool So this is on the home page and it's an interactive SVG map of Africa where you can select the Area of the region of Africa and get a quick link into some details about it So in the back end, this is an ACF row and you can just select you turn on Namibia So all the regions that are in that map are actually set up in the back end ready to go So the client could just tick it live and fill in the the top pick selections from a selector in the ACF The rest is automated publish and it's straight live to the site. So again, so simple I mean, it's not that simple a bit of JavaScript and the SVG stuff, but it's a simple idea But it's the strategy behind it and the forward thinking about how this might benefit the client and users for a long time to come. So This site also has a really cute little it's just an example of a gravity form It's an interactive inquiry form. So again, nothing that crazy, but just use a slider and gravity forms but it's a much more engaging way to capture inquiries for The business rather than just, you know, called action filling our form So, yeah, just little bits and pieces like that that are creative coffee beans But those who've seen me at word camp the last couple of times it's not work out unless I talk about coffee beans delivered This is my baby with my husband It's an e-commerce store that we started about four nearly five years ago now Over one weekend over a beer thought it was a good idea since we could build an e-commerce site that we should Yeah, it's turned out okay, but it's now its own beast. It's its own company. It has five staff My husband works it full-time. We have an espresso bar a distribution center and it's probably one of the top online retail artisan coffee sites on in Australia So yeah, it went well, but yeah, yeah That's another story. But anyway This is a great example of something custom as well. So on this site We found that people were having trouble deciding on what coffee they should buy There's lots of choices and they weren't sure so we came up with this idea for this interactive quiz Which is basically just using a gravity form again And some custom graphics and obviously some front-end stuff, but it lets people go through and select Their preferences about what machine you use stuff like that Personality types just a kind of cute one bring my answer Gives you a little different thing every time you get this page and then it pops out basically a Coffee personality. So they're all different depending on what you picked Which is shareable on social media and they're really really funny But these are three products Selected specifically like a line to what you selected in that quiz. So it's real If you'd selected milk, then ill caramel is a fantastic Blend for you and also you said you drank more than two one or two a day So you're probably gonna need a kilo and you need whole beans because you said you had a grinder So the product selection simple, right gravity forms custom post type WooCommerce and a whole lot of Really complex like matrix of if they select this is this is it lands here But nothing too crazy in terms of functionality the value was in the thinking and the strategy on it And it was super valuable because we found that once we launched this about it was about six months after we launched the site we implemented this and If people go through the quiz that the conversion rate was 200 times what it was without the quiz So it also on the side because it's a gravity form the data gets stored in the gravity form in the back end So although this doesn't look like a form and you're not submitting anything you actually are So we have collected a great amount of really useful user data on our customers If they're logged in to the site into the WooCommerce as well It stores against their customer records so we can see what machine they have and stuff like that if they've done the quiz So we use that data for marketing directly to them about Things specific to them So that's custom components. I could talk all day on custom components. I actually really love it It's one of the bits. I love about what we do But the other big big important bit here in terms of value is strategy It's really scary jumping into something of high value and not feeling like there's a strategy and I've seen that Before we started doing strategic marketing We'd often see big companies come to us and they need a website and they have budget and stuff But you'd start digging and realize they actually had no plan for the web no digital plan They might have had a marketing plan, but no actual real plan so Having a plan a good marketing strategy, but also a plan for the website is absolutely crucial in making things work small or big But if you're investing this much money when you're up in this level of thing then a plan is absolutely Vital so it's things like having a marketing plan and a brand strategy, you know the obvious stuff Understanding your market and your target market and how to speak to them Yeah, it's easy to assume that you their clients know why they want a website, but really more often Just frightening The other bit is you know UX UI taking the strategy and turning it into a really good design that works so We also find here a really good value adders Anything we can do to get the client really focused on the user at this point So that's things like user goals and journey mapping content canvases aligned with their business goals and all that sort of stuff Is part of what we wrap into a package on a higher value site like that because we don't want to work on anything That's not going to work It doesn't feel good Architecture is the other thing so Along with planning. It's about looking at audience research So looking at real data if they've got an existing site will look at you know How's that performing? What are the top pages? Where are people going? Where are they dropping off all that sort of stuff? And use that to plan the new one It's really great to show that to clients because it adds massive value when you're starting to talk about real data And not just abstract assumptions on things Then also it's about considering how WordPress is going to handle the project So we do spend a lot of time and this is pre-build pre-design pre-content pre-final content a lot of the times a lot of time planning and the structure and Laying the groundwork and foundations for things like the custom post types and taxonomies and how things are going to feed into How things are going to pull across all different parts of the site And also the back-end architecture. How are we going to build this so people can manage it? What's going to be the best way to future pre-fit for them so that they get a really good clear run at this Themselves without having to come back and get help So the other big piece here is understanding value and selling on value It's a tough one in this space because you do get people that just go I want to know how long it's going to take you and I only want to pay you that and That's not right. That's not right. There's so much.  We are all in that whole team is all in and all over this whole thing so the relationship with the client is so important to having it work and feel good and maintain the momentum and Feel good about it and anyone in the agency will know how quickly even freelancers everyone that works with clients will know How quickly a client's attitude or their communication style or the relationship can just put a big downer on the whole thing and make You not want to work on it anymore. I have this analogy that everyone laughs at But I think it's a good one that embarking on a decent-sized web project with an agency is like choosing a baby daddy because basically you're You're choosing to have a child together that you're going to raise for some amount of time together Whether it's just getting that thing born or if it's raising it to go off to college and be successful and make lots of money And support you into your old age and I think You need to choose it carefully like choosing based on whether you feel a synergy with this thing and you trust the agency And you trust the people and in vice versa I'm so picky about the clients we work with because I have a small team to protect the energy of and I want it to Always I want Mondays to feel great that pixel palace. So the relationship matters communication Major factor why a lot of projects fail And I think again that feeds back into the relationships, but it adds to value if an agency communicates really well That is valuable and something that probably doesn't get talked about enough in terms of shopping around and trying to shop on price Price won't matter when you're not getting an answer from people or you feel like you're just not getting what you need It's the worst Systems and processes so you need systems and processes if you're working on big sites that things stay on track and on budget and avoid Scope Crete Things will fall over if you don't have processes in place having process and systems takes time and budget and experience So again, it's adding to the value Price versus cost Yeah, so this is this is a great one because people shop on price on websites for some crazy reason I just Can I I don't know I don't understand it's kind of like shopping on price on a car I get it if all you can afford is a $500 car because that's all you can afford And you need a car and I think fit for purpose and all that stuff But what you buy for $500 is not what you buy for $10,000 or $50,000 and the people understand that in that analogy But they don't seem to understand it in web So it's about taking a client from a low expectation of budget because they don't understand all this stuff that I'm talking about and Moving them through that education to understand that sometimes the cost of a website is invisible like sometimes you can't tell how much this thing is costing you in lost opportunity or time wasted or not converting and You know paying a couple of grand To get it designed and built is nothing compared to what you're losing from not having done all this other stuff in the background. So It's a tough one and then charging for value rather than time So, you know if you employ an agency like pixel palace or some of the other sort of agencies in the space you're employing experience and speed and Expertise and you're you're you're buying on outcomes. You're not buying on where it's going to take us 40 hours to do that You know, it's our experiences come from years and years and years of doing this stuff over and over and seeing it all So we can be quick and awesome And we know how to quickly jump in and do something and we have things in place to be able to roll stuff out really quickly That's valuable.  No, you're paying for the whole thing.  I'm definitely Massive fit for purpose is my thing all about fit for purpose So there's a range of options out there in this space. You can get a site for $500 You can get a site for $100,000. They're both websites And everything is okay The lower end of things is okay too if that's what you can afford and that's all you can do then that's okay But it's about understanding that what you get for that is less experience less care less time less speed less technically sound That's okay as long as you're aware It's like the car thing if you can only afford the $500 car You know you're not getting something terribly safe or long-lasting, but you're okay because you understand We've probably all seen examples of this like the client that spent 800 dollars on a website And then is immediately redoing it again because they realized that was just so stupid And it doesn't even work properly and they may as well gone to the pub with that 800 dollars And they want to at that point All clients who cut out the two interesting bits of functionality that we propose on a website to make it different and actually Convert for them because of budget, but then they just have like a boring our site that they could have just had a template and You know they look like everyone else and they had a chance to really get ahead Or clients conversely who pay too much we had one client come to us a couple years ago that had spent $40,000 on a invado template and Yeah, and so that terrifies me and it's just awful so it's about fit for purpose So basically that's kind of it the takeaways from today that I would like you to take from my talk if anything There's five things one there needs to be a plan I think there's to be a plan regardless of budget, but the more time the more budget you have the more time you have The better plan you can have Wordpress can be greater than the sum of its parts. I'm yet to see something.  And if anyone tries to tell me otherwise next The architecture of the admin and the back end adds a huge amount of value And this is something people don't talk about enough But it really should be if you're a marketing manager and you're getting quotes on websites like talking about what how the back-end architecture is going to be set up is Really really important Relationships matter relationships for me and communication is the biggest thing in my business It's the reason why pixel palace always has done well because I'm a communicator. I'm a people person might not be the best designer Definitely not developer But I understand people and I know how to communicate well So I manage relationships well and that is of massive I think you could talk to anyone that pixel palace has worked with in the last ten years And that would be the number one thing they say at the end of a project at the beginning I was scared of spending the money This was what you were three times more expensive than some of the other quotes I got for ten times more expensive But oh my god in a heartbeat do it again I wish I I wish I knew that at the beginning and so and I have this thing too I'm always like if you knew what I know you'd be fine with you'd be like shut up and take my money So relationships and communication is everything in that space and then value is not all about the time it takes like the dentist So that's a really important thing. I think for everyone freelancers as well as Potential clients or if you're in the market for a website understanding that the value is not about the time it takes That's it. Got time for questions We've got time for a few questions, I believe So if you could come down the front, we will have some microphones and yeah, thanks again, Jen. That was awesome talk Thank you so much. I love that. I love the slides are awesome in your stories You talk about communicating value to your clients. What's the best way to do that? So do you tell them horror stories about that $40,000 website built on a template or data? How do you communicate the value that you bring I think Onboarding of client like the initial first few conversations with clients are super important and I think also in that space The energy that you come at relate like again, I'm I'm naturally really good with people So I naturally do this thing where you can see I'm being authentic when I talk to you about What we do and what the value is in that and I believe that so people feel it I think it's really hard to have that conversation if you don't believe the value yourself So that's probably one thing is really getting clear within yourself if you're having these conversations with people like That you value it and that you're not going on It's not really worth it because a minute you feel like that then they're gonna feel that too But yeah, like it's it depends on the situation depends on the client Sometimes it's great to say if they've got a really low budget expectation because someone else has quoted You know 10 grand and we're saying this is 40 and literally genuinely if we're saying it's that then I'm telling you that it Needs to be that like this isn't so I think yeah, I think it's such a thing I think it's confidently believing that it's worth that and understanding the value and then working out a way to clearly communicate that in the right Every client has a different fear. I guess that early bit. Yeah. Yeah, so Understanding their problem and trying to help them solve it This is probably yeah Thank you. It was a great great talk for these feature-rich sites who owns the IP Of those features you or the client. Um, I they they own What we did for them That's not to say that we can't go and build Something with a similar setup for someone else We never ever have copied Exactly from one to another Because all of our sites are custom like in any way anyway if you look through our portfolio See, they're all completely different. There's not one that looks like. Oh, yeah, they've kind of gone Oh, yeah, that's the same thing totally different So, yeah, I mean those clients own their thing. Yeah, they can do what they want with that There's no restriction on us as far as I'm aware or concerned that we can't go and do the same sort of build because they're all iterations Of the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so then following follow on question from that if someone wanted You know another agency wanted to come along and say all that choose wisely functionality. Love it. Can I buy it? They think you sell it nothing. Well, there's nothing in that So that's the beauty of that right and like it's literally a gravity form and a custom post type that creates the draft post We didn't write that that's like so I think there's a part of this too. That's like we Some of that functionality is built using premium plugins We try not to use plugins Unnecessarily, but some of that big the heavy lifting is done by things like Well, I see F obviously but GMI WordPress and facet WP and those sort of things like there's no need to reinvent the wheel on it So all of that stuff is basically strategic use of plugins together and some of the native WordPress stuff like custom post types and taxonomies and things like that If there's nothing proprietary in it We haven't done anything that we did that we couldn't do with a plug-in almost and some clever stuff So so yeah, um and there's a different question. Um communicating with your clients Uh, do you just do that over email and phone or do you insist on a certain way to interact? That's a good one. Um email is horrible.  It's not funny Um, so I think a lot of clients are happy to rage on an email as well But they don't tend to rage when you pick up the phone And I feel like a lot of creatives in particular are really scared of that phone call But I mentor a lot of other designers and Sort of startups and the creative thing and I'm always saying to them get comfy with these conversations Get comfy with uncomfortable conversations Because what I found over 10 years of doing this is that clients love me because I have boundaries and I say no That's a really great idea But no, we're not doing that because it's out of scope and it'll take us another three days to do and but we can do it I can quote on it blah blah blah, but that's a phone call not an email They get an email on that and they're like pissed off So I am definitely a phone call girl or a meeting We have found two presenting Designs the first time to clients in particular where there's multiple stakeholders In person or at least on a zoom so I can watch them because I watch their face and I know and I can I I've got a spidey sense that my team will tell you it's hilarious. I'll predict I can tell you what their feedback is going to be before they send it and every time it's like Yeah, so yeah, but being there and presenting in person lets you Talk them through the stuff that it's so easy to make assumptions that people know everything that we know And you know, you've been working on a design a complex design for a big corporate site for ages And you just send that off to them and we've got all these assumptions because we've been looking at it Yeah, like that's going to be sticky So when they scroll it's going to stay there and then you send them the thing and you send some notes I don't read that those sort of things and they're like, well, is there a big blah blah blah blah? And then they're upset already whereas you go and present that you talk them through this awesome thing and they're like This is amazing.  It's that bit of Yes, it's easier to fire off a PDF or send them a link to the figment of comment on or whatever it is that you do Is your process But there's huge value in stopping and taking time to actually cuddle them and say let's talk this through I want to show you my enthusiasm and what we thought and the thinking behind it and that we had strategy And this is why we did this and imagine when it does this and you get sign off first pop We get sign off first pop on most things that we send big things because we go and do that So great. All right. Thank you for your interest Thanks again, Jen. That was a great talk. I'm sure we're all going to Ask everyone to The person next to you to give you $50,000 to build the more website It's got to be worth it. It's got to be worth it. Is there another question? Are we done? Yeah, I was just wondering how far do you get through scoping before you give the quote of this will be $50,000. Yeah. Yeah. So these big sites definitely often have a paid scoping So we'll do a workshop where we if they can't give us a very detailed brief So one big one that we're working on currently The marketing girl at that place is amazing and detailed and has the most amazing like Everything done brief amazing content done all ready to go Very easy for us to just go bang. That's how much that is but more often than not these big corporates in particular Have no idea. So we say we'll go and spend a day or two days or whatever it is working with your marketing team Or working whoever it is there a thing to come up with The plan and from that plan they'll come out of it with an architecture for the site perhaps and a contents Like here's the pages and the architecture. Here's a content canvas that you can go and start thinking about content on Do you need help with content? Do you need a marketing plan? Do you need, you know, so From that if they if they have no idea and we can't see clearly what the scope is because we do fixed price We're not doing You know, it's it's this is the cost of this site to this scope If we can't see that clearly then I won't provide a a quote and they have to do that. Otherwise, we're Out. Yeah Sweet. Well, thanks again, Jen. Thanks. Um, yeah, thanks for your talk and for your awesome well-coloured slides


To election matters, the Independent National Electoral Commission, INEC, has stated that it has a huge logistics nightmare in its hands in transporting sensitive materials for the 2023 election. The Chairman, Information and Vota Education Committee, Festa Sokoe, who stated this added that the logistics used for Osho and Iqiti's governorship elections will not be sustainable for the 2023 general elections, also stated that the Electoral Commission will have to review material storage and logistics with the Central Bank of Nigeria to finalize its logistic pathway for sensitive materials to 36 states, including the FCT. News updates.