My name is Dimitri. I work for Canonical and I work in the foundations team on Ubuntu. And I work at integrating various things into the Ubuntu software stack, mostly in early boot. And I didn't write Resolve D, but I was one of the people who integrated into Ubuntu to be used by default on client servers, desktops, IoT in all of our deployments by default. There are various reasons why we went to do it, mostly because DNS is hard. Doing DNS correctly is very hard and also it's very dynamic lately, such that there's constant updates in terms of name servers that you're supposed to use and search domains that you're supposed to use and so on and so forth. And loads of software doesn't really monitor well when the networking changes. So that's kind of our reasoning for it. So what is SystemD Resolve D? It's an optional component which is shipped in the SystemD software project, which has loads and loads of components. It's a local caching DNS resolver. I think that's the quickest way to describe it. It's a daemon. It listens on board 53 on TCP and UDP and it offers a local resolver which will do pair link DNS name resolution. And that's kind of important because these days you do not have just a single DNS server which you always have access to. You often have different DNS servers depending on whether you're on Wi-Fi, Ethernet, 3G, LTE, whether you're Rome, whether you enable or disable VPN or your VPN dies, such that all of these things constantly change and it constantly monitors and stores configuration for every single of your network links. It also has an NSS module, so you can enable it and then you can have NSS switch resolve all of your DNS names via that as well, so you don't need to have ETC Resolve Conf at all. So like when I worked at ClearLinux, we've tried to actually remove ETC Resolve Conf from the file system that didn't go that well, but we've tried and it was fun when it did work. There is a D-Bus API as well such that you can query the configuration, change the configuration as well as do all of the different queries and resolutions via that. And there is a very handy command line tool as well such that you can actually debug what's happening and get even like the binary output of your queries and so on and so forth. It is a network daemon as I said, so it is listening on port 53 which does conflict sometimes with other softwares that also wants to listen on port 53. It has a Resolve Conf implementation. Some of you might be aware of Resolve Conf which is like on a boon to daemon for example, it's a lot of shell scripts which try to parse loads of domain servers and just mash them together into a single file. So there is a compatibility interface for that as well inside SystemD Resolves. So it's many things together under single umbrella. So as I've said, removing ETC Resolve Conf is a bad idea because in practice it is a operating system ABI. So it has to have name server space something in it. And SystemD Resolves offers you a couple of options of what you can do with ETC Resolve Conf and mostly we're trying to shepherd all the queries into it. There are three files that you can generally point it to. The first one will point at the stubresolval on your local host but it will also have dynamically updated search domains such that as soon as you enable VPN you'll get all of the search domains pushed to you updated in your ETC Resolve Conf such that everything works. There is a static file as well which doesn't have the search domains but it's useful for like embedded systems where you know that you will most likely not have any search domains or you don't care whether they're updated manually then you can statically link to that file instead. And there is a third one which is basically like a dump of the existing upstream name servers that Resolve is aware of such that it will actually have the underlying name servers there. And I'm going to show how these files look like. So this is the static one which is shipped by default in the packaging, right? It points to your local name server. It does say that it does support EDNS such that all of the EDNS queries are capable. There is also pipelining support being added in master as well such that you can do full queries as you would expect over TCP or UDP without losing anything. So this is an example from my system when I'm connected to my company's VPN such that in slash run there is a dynamically generated file and it also includes all the search domains which I've acquired from DHCP from my local Wi-Fi from search domains that I've acquired over the VPN from my company or from my VPNs for my clients as well. And the neat thing here is that when I do these queries each one of those queries is actually rooted on the correct interface to the correct upstream name server such that my internal VPN company queries are not leaked to a different VPN to the second one or to the public internet. And it also means that I always get the correct answers which I actually have roots for. This is the resolve conf which is a dump of actual upstream name service which I am currently using. So you see that I have two of them and I have all the search domains. This will leak your DNS queries, right? Because here you have no information which one of the name servers you should use for which search domain. And you might also get annex domain results from one but not the other and it might not be authoritative which one is the correct annex domain. So however there are pieces of software that really cannot deal with pointing to a local host resolver. So for example Kubernetes they often want to know your actual upstream name server and like from version 111 they started to actually look at this file to figure out which ones they should carbon copy inside their container deployments. Which is probably not a good idea because I don't think they are actually monitoring for updates because this file will be updated as your networking changes. And in the cloud things do change because like whenever you change your tenant ID or you connect to more VPNs inside your cloud your search domains will update dynamically and such that you have to monitor these things. So you can also not point ETC Resolve Conf at Resolve D at all and still use Resolve D else how. So your NSS module will continue to work, your command line tools will continue to work, your D-Bus API will continue to work, network manager will continue to push DNS servers to Resolve D even if your ETC Resolve Conf doesn't point at Resolve D. And one interesting thing is that in that case Resolve D will start to use ETCresolve.conf as an input file such that it will parse it and it will store the name servers you specified there by hand as the global or the default or the fallback DNS server if it has no other knowledge. And it's useful because this way you can revert back your system to what it was before or how it's configured elsewhere such that you can compare the two types of name resolutions. So how do we store and push all the name servers into the Resolve D? So network manager and network D they have native support for Resolve D and they push the updates via D-Bus to there. If you are a VPN provider or you write a new VPN software you might use D-Bus API to update the name servers to Resolve D or you can use the command line tool in like hook scripts to update the write name servers if you have that need. There is also Resolve Conf compatibility interface such that you can just use existing Resolve Conf integration instead and you can by hand specify things in ETC Resolve Conf which will be read by Resolve D if it's not managed by it. So there is loads of options. There is also compile time fallbacks which I don't quite like but you can compile Resolve D such that it will fall back to <IP_ADDRESS> and even though you have no network connectivity it will like route robin still try to resolve things. I don't like that because that kind of is the privacy violation and like call home and you're not using what you're supposed to use so I'll get back to what the defaults in Ubuntu actually are slightly later. Apart from resolving just normal DNS queries there are other things Resolve D can do. So it can do LLMNR resolutions, MDNS. You can enable and force DNS sec and then you kind of break your system because loads of people claim that they do DNS sec and then they missign their domains and basically you can't resolve anything. Also the captive portals break DNS sec quite often. As I said, this is a local caching named Resolve so there is a cache which your users can poison each other with such that some paranoid people might want to disable cache. So this is kind of like tunables of how much paranoia you have as well. DNS tab listeners so if you don't want it to bind to port 53 because you're going to run some other better software instead then you can disable binding to port 53 as well and you can ask it not to read ETC hosts because you think that's vulnerable as well and then you can disable reading that as well. So it's loads of options. On Ubuntu you see these are no by default because this is what makes Internet work for people in Starbucks and in like Houston Terminal 2 and various angry bug reports that I had to read. In terms of pair link configuration you can see what scopes are enabled on each link so you can say that I do not want LLMNR on my Wi-Fi but I'm okay for that to be done on the Ethernet because I trust physical network more and you can set various settings as you want on each interface and usually it's a full list but it didn't fit on the slide so I split it in two columns so the formatting is slightly modified for presentation. It shows the current DNS server. It shows the search domains and a very weird tilde dot search domain. It basically means that you can force specify where you want the bulk of your search queries to go to which specific interface link you want them to go down. You also can specify which search domains you want to be used on like a VPN connection and you also can say that you do not want anything else but your company dot com resolved there. That allows you, that gives you quite powerful tools to implement split DNS correctly and as expected and most importantly you can do this automatically if your system administrator provisions those things via OpenVPN correctly then all of these things just happen locally on the client machine without users have to worry about whether they're doing split DNS correctly or not. There are the resolve kittle command line. It was previously called system D dash resolve D or resolve but it was renamed to resolve kittle and later releases so it depends which release of Ubuntu you're on you might have to use one or the other but the verbs and commands are mostly available everywhere. You can query normal A records, quadruple A records you can query other things like OpenPGP keys and etc. and behind the very restrictive captive portal and then you like paid for your Wi-Fi and suddenly you get the rest of the internets and at that point you probably want to flash your caches or if you're like a system administrator or like you write GNOME software to do captive portals please do flash caches after you know you have the real internet connection because that way you can actually restore connectivity to loads of things and you can also reset server features. What we found out is that loads of captive portals really do not like EDNS and sometimes they do not give you the answer to where the captive portal is unless you send the query without EDNS but once you got past the captive portal EDNS starts to work magically and suddenly the DNS sex start to work and all of those things start to be passed through correctly and that's quite scary but that also means that sometimes ResolVD tries loads of things and it says like I've tried DNS stack I've tried EDNS, I've tried TCP none of those things work I'm going to use just UDP and like only do short queries and short packets and after you pass the captive portal suddenly you need to scale back up and start enabling all of the nice features like DNS over TLS and all of those things. Here are some more commands that ResolVD will offer you and you can send loads of parameters and well I did mention captive portals and EDNS they're quite sad we found many other bug reports as well so like for example loads of providers let's not name them by name but they run like a big cloud and then they abuse option 15 and they send multiple search domains there and they do it comma separated because magically that works and our clients use it and we're not going to change that so I'm thinking that maybe option 15 will need to have like non-RFC parsing capability like network D and network manager which sounds ugly but it will make the internet's work We've tried to enable M-DNS by default and LMNR but unfortunately what we found out that NX domains resolutions take way too long so people make a typo or people want to resolve to make sure that something is gone from the network because they've removed a hostname and those resolutions take so long that all of the integration test suites started to time out and bomb out such that I had to disable that because otherwise like OpenStack doesn't work or Mass doesn't work or Juju doesn't work so those things are nice on the local network but in practice they break the internet and also the other query that we often get is that domain-less searches are not forwarded so loads of people at home on their Wi-Fi Wi-Fi they do not set at home domain for their local network and then they expect for us to leak search domain-less queries to the public internet and we don't do that and people want that to happen and we tell them no you're wrong but they get annoyed so if you want to resolve hostnames on your local network make up a domain and set it and then we'll pick it up and then we'll use it because that's how you should be doing things when to default we do trust the domains that we've acquired over DHCP by default because that makes things work in cloud context a lot but if you are paranoid or you don't trust that you probably would want to disable that you can enable DNSSEC you can enable DNS over TLS and you can enforce it you will reach very little subset of the internet but good luck and you can do that in your ETC systemdresolve.conf to modify that and use that we listen on port 53 we do not have any fallback DNS so we don't round robin try to reach internet which we don't have access to we do use tabresolve.conf which I showed earlier we disable nss module because loads of software doesn't actually use nss or they prefer to use ETCresolve.conf instead so we kind of use the tabresolver as our default point of how to do queries we have the network manager if up down integration we will switch resolve.conf implementation to resolve this soon but we haven't done that yet in practice this works as a default setting for a distribution well and it covers loads of use cases for some people it doesn't work and in those cases we do recommend well you have the powers to change the same link of ETCresolve.conf to point where you want it to be pointed at but then you also get to keep all the broken pieces because this works well in Starbucks anything else possibly not and I think that's all for my slides and ask me anything yeah do you support DNS over HTTPS? so the question was whether we use DNS over HTTPS what do you support it? so I don't think DNS over HTTPS is not in resolve D yet and we use resolve D by default so the answer is no however HTTPS is probably something that should be added to resolve D project if it does it's nice because then suddenly you can point all of your system and everything on your system will use DNS over HTTPS right so it's already a single point of integration so you need to edit only once not in every single piece of web browser that you use on your system yeah right so the question was what do I do to disable resolve D and how do I avoid NSS taking over and redirecting my queries to resolve D anyway so LibNSS-resolve is a separate package on Ubuntu and it's not installed by default so you would want to remove that package or you would want to also use the package reconfigure and assess whatever the command is to disable that NSS module if you have it enabled we did briefly enable it by default but we have disabled that since so only if you run like a development release you may have it on your system but in practice we don't enable NSS module by default so it shouldn't be there and changing ETC resolve to not be a sim link is quite easy but he knows how to do that so you do need to do two things yeah has the cache poisoning been solved by now I've delegated that question to our security team and in practice they did risk assessment if I can call it that way and basically the benefits of the cache outweigh the probabilities of cache poisoning and it's mostly to do with local users poisoning each other's cache rather than somebody external and also you have to be aware that resolve the internally flushes caches often whenever the network configuration changes or your links or name service changes it does self flush the caches because things have changed my world view might be different so I don't believe cache poisoning is solved but I also don't think it's a viable thread is that an okay answer so the follow up was that because of cache poisoning possibility resolve D was disabled well you have a conflict option for that so disable caches and then resolve D will not cache anything and then you can use resolve D and you will not be vulnerable to cache poisoning but you will also have slower queries because each time the query will be repeated right because like in cloud context like some of our cloud partners they ask us to enable cache DNS cache because it makes the cloud faster especially when you have multiple VMs talking to each other and network there is slightly more trusted so if you can trust your network and your connections to your upstream name server you shouldn't worry much about cache poisoning yeah yeah so that the question was if I want to use a static name server but still use resolve D where do I configure it so in slash ATC system D slash resolve dot conf is the global configuration where you can specify the name servers you want to use but you also need to prevent other things pushing parallel configuration because that can take precedence over whatever your default system name server is so you would disable resolve D plug-in and network manager for example yeah yes I find that a weird assertion because I've run for 10 years okay explain explain so the question was why did we disable DNS by default or for now I think one of the best answers from my team colleague was that we will not use Ubuntu to debug the internet and slightly more wider answer is that we have found that there are captive portals middleware and network equipment which drops DNS stack packets and that even though certain domains are signed correctly between me and client I cannot get all of the answers right that was one issue the other issue was captive portals where DNS stack works but later such that people type in google.com they fail to get to the captive portal they cannot get the internet they disable DNS stack suddenly they can get to the portal and they can get to the internet they can re-enable DNS stack but who does that yeah yeah yeah oh my god this is absolutely client-focused this is the absolute end of the chain and so we generally speak to cheap routers cheap routers are really awful even the better ones have their own domain which they answer themselves and then everything else so it has this weird behavior where depending on the domain you actually resolve, it has completely different feature sets, right? So, and then you have these mixed views on the world where you start GMS-seq verifying a half of the internet and then suddenly you end up in the other half and then everything is closed, right? So, I think on the internet itself, the domains are generally fine, right? Like, of course Google does verify everything with these things, but it's just a nightmare. And, like, it comes... Could you summarize that for the mic? For the mic. I think the answer there is that between end client and the good internet, there's loads of shitty components in between. I think that's the summary. But for me, also, we found loads of bug reports where people change their keys and don't resign their domains correctly, such that you get invalid signatures, which you're not supposed to trust, because people played with DNS-seq, then moved on, or, like, Bob laughed, and then, you know, things are no longer signed correctly. The worst reason to pick it, because people have expired certificates, you don't disable it in the browser because of that. So, I mean, secure with the techniques. So, I think the browser argument is different because it's shown to people in their face and generally people got taught to use that well. And it's quite user-visible, hence it's generally fixed better, as in more websites have valid certificates more often than it is the case with DNS-seq. But if you would see it very fast. Because you just... I'm sorry. He was the next person to ask a question. Yeah. Couldn't it just cache per user? The question about cache poisoning was whether we can cache per user instead. Possibly that's the answer, but it has performance hits. And also, what we also like to see is that when you launch thousands of containers that they generally hit more or less the same CDN endpoints and things like that, because that makes connections faster. So, I think there is a performance hit if you do per user caching. Better than no caching. We prefer cache everything. So, I think we're on that slide scale. Also, I don't think there is per user caching support yet. So, maybe that's something that you might want to add to SystemD. Okay, one last question. But does SystemD resolve the support answering from the cache, even if it's expired? So, in case, for example, the after name service is not available at the moment. So, the question was whether there are answers available from the cache, even if you like lost network connectivity. I don't believe that that's done that way, because as soon as you lose network connectivity, your cache will be flushed and it will be deleted. So, we're actually very protective there that we flush the cache rather than the little because we think like any different configuration changes, everything might change, right? So, and we even have rules that, I don't know if somebody said so ridiculously large TTL, we ignore it. We will flush every entry after 10 minutes or something, the latest, because we say, yeah, we don't want to play this, so we end up in one network and then we're at the capital portal, sets a huge TTL and you never get rid of it. Yeah. So, we have the policy we flushed too often. Yeah. So, the summary there for the mic, is that Resolvedee by Dearfold has aggressive cache expiry and cache flushing. No, sorry, we're done. Oh, we're done. Oh, okay. Thank you.


Located in Tuscany, Il Bordeaux is a medieval village transformed into a luxury hotel, winery and restaurant by Ferruccio Ferragamo. We finally get our chance to visit this place. Here's what staying in a Tuscan village looks like. It's all in the latest episode of Exotic Wine Travel. So it's our first morning here at Il Bordeaux. We got in late last night. We took a 10 hour train ride from Lecce to Florence and I had to pick up my car and it's Easter weekend here in Italy. So the traffic was terrible. We got in late last night, got a nice meal but we're ready to have some breakfast. The luxurious breakfast is just what we need after a long day of travel. It's a varied spread that includes Italy's famous burrata cheese. Well the skin is really thin and it looks like it's got more fat content than the previous one that we had. After breakfast, we take a stroll through the village, which has a few museums and artisanal shops. We don't have a lot of time to wander though. We have appointments for yoga and a couple's massage in the spa. So we're at the spa, we're all excited for our couple's massage, well I'm excited for a massage. Sherry doesn't like massage so much. Let's see how it is. After the massage, we enjoy the private spa, which works up our appetite. Chef Andrea Campani meets us at Ostero del Bordo and talks about his partnership with El Bordo and the type of cuisine at both restaurants on the property. We started to work together 7 years ago. I had my own restaurant near Bina small village and we started to cook in a little bit different way. We always respect our tradition. We try to give a little bit more authentic and sometimes also ethical cuisine. We use 80-90% of our ingredients come from Tuscany and a lot of vegetables come from our garden. So the vegetables are the most important if you use it in the right moment. You can create a fantastic dish with 2-3 single ingredients. What kind of experience you want your customers to have when they dine at your restaurants? To feel the happiness that we have working here. Try to discover a new phase of Tuscany cuisine. All that talking makes us hungry. We start the meal with a few humble soups. Barley soup like my grandma used to make. And the pasta. And the pasta. The pasta is really perfect. Definitely you know when you have pasta, come on you really don't need to do much. We pair the meal with a few wines from the state including El Bordo's signature wine the Tuscano Rosso. I love this blend of Marlowe, Cabernet, Sauvignon and Cera but today, Cherine finds something even more exciting. The Alessandro de Bordo Sera. The moment you snore, you know it's a damn serious one. Amazingly tight.  The tannins are very integrated, really round up, really small, fine grain and it spreads out very elegantly. It's quite resilient now on the palate. I imagine you will gradually become more expressive over time. Right now I think it's only at the beginning stage of being very nice to drink. We are stuffed but we have to make time for tasting at the cellar. After a quick introductory film, we walk through Ferriccio Ferragamo's private art collection. A girl with a glass of wine, he who does not drink or kiss. Next we head out to the vineyards which are organically certified. While El Bordo has French grapes, their focus in the recent years has shifted to San Giovese. We march through the new and old cellars. The modern cellar includes several clay vessels which El Bordo is experimenting with. After the quick tour, we start tasting of San Giovese-based wines and we're quite impressed with the three in front of us. You want to talk about these three? Yeah, so they're all made with 100% San Giovese but you know you've got your bubble style rosé and then you've got your steel rosé and you've got this 100% San Giovese red made in Enfora. I really like this because it shows the purity of the fruit and with really good structure, acidity, tannins, very drinkable for 2017 wine. Yeah, I agree. I think it smells delicate but it's pretty darn big and full actually, right? The rosé actually impressed me because for a lighter style, lighter style, rosé, light color, you still have freshness but you have substantial body which I like a lot. I'd also like the sparkling, El Bordo because well how often do you get a sparkling San Giovese and at the same time, you can see that they are very serious about it. It's 48 months on the lease and the next vintage is going to be 60 months so it's very interesting to get this developed, nuttiness, yeast, breadiness on the wine and also it still retains the fruit with good acidity. After the dry wines, we're given a taste of El Bordo's Vincanto. The smell kind of reminds me of a 20-year Tony pot but could be 30 as well because on the nose you just smell the harmony of an old wine. Kind of like a comforting old bookshelf as well, you know the wood and old paper. Love it. So for something so sweet heating the front palette and mid-pallet, the finish is clean, dry, well not dry dry but very refreshing. We start the next day with a little horseback ride. We're not the most experienced riders in the world so the slow trot to the vineyards is both relaxing and fitting for our skill level. Ready or not, it's time for dinner. Frozen, like granita, you know what I'm saying, granita. Chef Andrea put together a special menu for Easter. We start with a few appetizers, a few wines and some wild boar.  We can't resist ordering a bottle of the latest vintage of San Giovesi and Amfora. White, proscien, red, here at El Bordo. The spaghetti with sea urchin and breadcrumbs takes Shireen by surprise. I think the incorporated sea urchin with breadcrumbs, so it gives a texture. It dows the flavor, it dows back the flavor of the sea urchin a little bit. It's just essentially, it's like a simple dish, I mean it's just pasta with sea urchin breadcrumbs. Everybody has great flavors, a lot of texture. I learned something new from this dish, I mean I'm going to make breadcrumbs with sea urchin and breadcrumbs. Let's go. Fried meatball, the ramen inside. The dishes keep coming, before long we're stuffed and it's time for bed. The next morning it's time to eat again, there's a special Easter brunch buffet prepared by the team. We're stuffed again but it's a fantastic cap to our few days at El Bordo. The last few days have almost been too good to be true. We can't wait to make it back to the slice of paradise in Tuscany.


This is the SF Productions podcast network. Today, playing the computer memory in the comnet, people used to tape shows. Let me see. There's a tape on the end here. Let me hook this up here and let me see what we got. With us to the 60s and 70s, the dwelling place of the lost generation. An era whose heroes, role models, and very lives were molded and formed by weekly installments of favorite television programs. Welcome to the place your parents didn't understand. Welcome to the vast wasteland. Welcome home. Hello and welcome to another exciting episode of Vast Wasteland. This is not only another exciting episode, but it's the first of our series episodes, so we couldn't be more happy and proud. I'm Mark Schmidbauer, along with Marty Wiley and Wilbur Neal, and we're here to talk about 60s and 70s television. First couple notes before we jump right into the festivities. First thing, like I said, it's our first series episode and we're going to be on Tuesdays at 6pm, Wednesdays at 10pm, and Thursdays at 3pm.  That's right, so we want to see you just making Vast Wasteland a lovely habit in your household. So we have the other thing, we realized that for some strange reason you may want to actually write into Vast Wasteland. So if you want to write in, write to Vast Wasteland box 151526 Columbus, Ohio 43215. No letter bombs, please. And now, for tonight's topic, there's been a lot of things going on in the 80s and going into the 90s, certainly resonant of 60s and 70s television, and that is, of course, all the reunion shows. And we realized that there are a lot of shows that should have reunion shows. And so tonight, it's kind of a Siskel and Ebert kind of deal. We're going to pick our picks for shows that we wish they'd make reunion shows for. And so I'm going to turn the festivities over to Wilbert. And, well, let's hear your picks for shows you wish there were reunions you chose for. Okay, now on these, let's see, some of them may have actually, they might have touched upon a reunion, but they've actually done the reunion show per se.  Oh, we didn't tell them the rules. We had rules. You couldn't pick a show like where people were dead. Where major cast members were dead. And the other one where major cast members are enormous stars now. So you won't see a Hogan Sears reunion show or an I Spy reunion show for those two reasons. You probably wouldn't see Morgan Mindy either. Right. Because we wanted to be, you know, to put ourselves in the position. We're a big time Hollywood writers and we're pitching to the networks. And we're not going to pitch to the networks some ideas which obviously isn't going to work. So anyways, sorry to interrupt. Go ahead, Wilbert. Once again, here are my picks for reunion shows. Number one, first and foremost, Batman. They've touched upon it. They've looked at it. They've got on talk shows about it, but they've never actually done the reunion show. I want to see a Batman reunion show. Next, my favorite Martian. Now that one would be an interesting one to see also because, you know, Ray Walston, Bill Bixby, they're still around. They're still kicking around. It could actually be my favorite Martian reunion show. Now, the outer limits. There's just a plethora of things that could be done. There were actually no stars per se that were always on there. All you had was the beginning and it was just an anthology series. Correct. You could do that. They could do that. Well, let's see. UFO, which was probably one of my favorite science fiction shows from the 70s, which was a Gary and Sylvia Anderson show. So it's actually possible that there could be like a Gary and Sylvia Anderson hour or something where they could just do all of their different shows. We've got UFO, we've got Space 1999. We've got all the ones that they did with their Super Marionettes. Are we talking Supercar here? Supercar with their Supercar, their Stingray, their Fireball XL5, the ones that never made it to the United States. What exactly is going on with the Soviet and Gary right now? Absolutely nothing. If they're doing absolutely nothing, there's no like shows in Britain that they're doing? If there are anything, they're like little Saturday morning things like their last one. Gosh, what was... Well, I can't remember the name of that one now, but it's kind of a space show and it was just on for one season and that was it and we haven't heard anything from them since. So I'd like to see something from them. Sylvia Anderson hour. Yeah, exactly. Okay, the night gallery. Although now we're running to a problem here. Rod Serling's dead. The host is dead, but they have done a twilight zone where they do not have him. So it's not like he has to be there, but there's still so much that could be done. Plug in one of those terrible impersonators, you know. Well, I hope not. There's so many bad impersonators out there. For the new zones, they had some generic announcer. And then for the zone movie, they had Burgess Meredith do it, who of course was big time zone veteran. He's the voice of everything now. He's the voice of TV.  He does everything. Okay, then, well, I've got two here that I could run into problems with. So I'll go back to those. I've got three here that I could run into problems with. So I'll come back to all of them. Just spit them out. Oh, well, Colchak the Night Stalker. Darren McGaffin's still around. I don't see him doing anything on TV these days. He might do a guest spot here or there or something. But hey, there's still a lot that could be done with that Colchak character. They might have thought they exhausted it, but come on. There's always something supernatural coming up. Always something new. Always something they haven't tried. Let's see a Colchak reunion thing. Also, Dark Shadows. Now here, we... They're talking about that one there. They are actually doing a Dark Shadows. So that's when I picked them up. And Barnabas must be about, what, 7,000 years old in real life? Well, they're doing it with new people. They've got a whole new cast, but it will be Dark Shadows. The same character is just a new cast. I mean, Tarzan Frid's pretty old now, isn't he? Well, he's not going to do it. They all looked old anyway. Well, Tarzan Frid's going to be playing Barnabas now. So that's the only character they've really let anybody know about. Now, the ones I run into problems with, the Addams family, I guess they can't really do a good one of those because Carolyn Jones is dead. Jackie Coogan's dead, isn't he? I'm pretty sure he's dead. Yes, he's dead. It's like the Addams family. One of our cameramen says, yes, he's dead. Kind of a mess there. Well, I have lost his face down here, but Guy Williams is dead. But then I was thinking along with that, it could be like a whole Irwin Owl and kind of power thing. Have a whole evening of destruction. You just take all the Irwin Owl and shows and run them together. They run to one. Have somebody going into space. They shrink down this destructo time. They shrink down to miniature size. They go to a submarine. No, the submarines go into space. Yeah, shoot right out of the water. Maybe we could get the Andersons to work on it with them. And then the whole thing just blows up. And then the Green Hornet. Now, once again, we run into a problem because of course Bruce Lee is dead, but his son Brandon did a very good character on the Kung Fu reunion show. So it's possible that he could play Kato because Van Williams is still out there and he's still interested in the thing. He always goes to the conventions and he's talking about, oh yeah. And actually he is writing a comic book that will probably be out by the time that this is showing because they've redone a Green Hornet comic book. So, well anyway, he's still out there. And so that's, those are basically my picks. Batman, my favorite Martian. Outer Limits, UFO, Night Gallery, The Addams Family, Lost in Space, Cold Shack the Night Stalker, Green Hornet, and Dark Shadows. Okay, I'll turn it over to you. Captain Schmittio. Okay, Marty, do you want to go through your list? Okay, well I'll go ahead. Go for it. I want to see Love American Style again. You can practically do that with anybody anyway. Yeah, pretty much. Practically everybody was on it. And then I want to see the spin-off of Love American Style, which was Happy Days. And I think we could get Ron Howard to do it one more time. He did return to Mayberry. Yeah, why not?  He was not so big that he can't go back. Well, he directs. Now he's not a movie star, but you know, you got those lulls between movies. Yeah, right. Come back and do Richie again. The Gong Show, which is another show which, leave off J.P. Morgan this time, but you can get anybody... Bring back people who actually won. Yeah. I loved the Gong Show. It was tacky and it was great, and I loved it. Gene, Gene, and dancing. And I really miss Chuckie Baby. Okay. I think the clapping drove him crazy. I think that's why the show went off the air, I think. Okay, now this one you guys might have problems with Mr. Ed, because basically if you could get a talented Palomino... Now, I know the man who does the voice I think has passed away, but that's another thing. You never saw him. Right, that's true. And I think, like, Wilbur's still out there. Oh, yeah. He was doing the show like two years ago. He did a show, some show on CBS, some sitcom. He was like the second banana, like the next door neighbor. Crushing the next door neighbor guy. Yeah, something like that. Now, here's what I'm not sure about, the old Dick Van Dyke show. I've even got an idea. I think Buddy, Sally, and Rob should all be together on public access television trying to make a comeback. I think that would be real interesting and it would be good for us too. Yeah, I don't ever really do anything right now. Okay, this show ran only a couple years. It was called Please Don't Eat the Daisies. Hey. I remember this. I like the dog on the show, but I like the mom too, and I know she's still around. She's on Generations. That's the last time I saw her. I happened to flip one of these. Well, darn it, we've got this book here, so let's find out. In fact, over here. I want to say her last name is Kern. That's sped off of a movie, didn't it? Yeah, a book and a movie, and it's kind of about off-beat suburban housewives. I think Doris Day was in the movie. I want to say Joanne Kern or something like that played the mom. Well, I always liked the show and they had sons. It's like the only family... Patricia Crowley. Patricia Crowley. Well, I was real close on that anyway, wouldn't I? Okay. But they had kids. They would be grown up. All the other family shows got to do it. This one I just liked a lot. Barney Miller. I like to see Barney Miller come back in some kind of reunion. I think they've only lost Jack Sue. They kind of have to handle... But he died during the show. Right. So his character was covered. That's already been handled. But they all went off to different things. Didn't they? They all went off to different precincts at the end. Well, that's quite possible. But they could be reassigned. Yeah, they could be brought back for something. Right. There's always a reunion movie reason to bring everybody back together.  Yeah, they have to go still around. Despite... There's a major rumor going around he was dead for a while, but actually he wasn't. He just looks that way. Yeah. He just looks that way all the time. He always looks that way. Okay, I'm not sure about Room 222. No. Have people passed away at his... Lloyd Nolan. Lloyd Nolan is dead, yeah. Well, he was an old guy anyway. No. Well, not Lloyd. Room 222 is the next generation. No, I'm not Lloyd. No, I'm actually a guy from Julie. Right. The guy that was the main teacher. The main teacher has died. He's dead, yeah. Oh, that's too bad because Room 222 is the show I'd like to bring back somewhere. Yeah, he was on a bus his name. I'm not saying Lloyd Nolan. They could have a class reunion for Room 222. There you go. I mean, that's an easy one to get a reunion reason. Okay, Dennis the Menace. Hey. Jay North still looks like Dennis. I saw him on an HBO special or something playing a disgruntled character. But he had an overalls and striped shirt. He still looks like Dennis. And I believe his parents are still alive. The people who played his parents. So here's another family show where everyone's grown up. Now let's see what happens. No, hold on. It's Lloyd Haynes. Lloyd Haynes. Okay, that's Room 222. He's dead. Okay, and another one that was like a big favorite of mine and I could still watch it when I could find it is here come the brides. I'd like to see everybody married this time. Everybody. And just see how happy they are in Seattle in the 1860s or whatever. One stipulation. Let's not have Bobby Sherman sing this time, please. He can stutter all day. He can stutter all day. Oh, I'd kind of like to see him over and stutter too. Let's not have him sing. I'd like to see him and Candy married and settled down. I figured that was always a problem. He needed a steady girlfriend that would cure the stuttering. I figured. Maybe he needs something else to cure that stutter. Well, that kind of comes along with it. We hope. Okay, go ahead, Mark. All right. Well, here's my top 10. Actually, a couple of them have already been mentioned. First off, my number one would be the old Dick Van Dyke show. I certainly think that, I mean, Mary Tyler Moore is kind of quirky enough, even though she's a big star, to come back and do it if the script goes good. What she's not doing is Mary just bombs. Yeah, that other show. They come bombed out. Yeah. And so it is. Yeah, they could get together. Yeah, sure, you know. So I thought that was a fine idea. Let's see. The second one was Courtship of Eddie's Father. Now, I heard like two years ago on some new show that they were saying, because Brandon Cruz was on some show and he was saying, oh yeah, they're going to make. They were writing it at the time. And I haven't heard anything about it since. And it was going to be like this, this almost kind of dramatic thing because it's like the kid and the dad have kind of, they've grown apart and it's kind of a thing where they get back together and all this and it's all wonderful. And darn it, I want to see this thing and they haven't made it yet. Anyways, let's see. The odd couple.  Another thing that we keep hearing, they're both around. What's the deal here? I'd want to kill them both if I saw them on TV again together. They're doing commercials together now. I got real fed up with the odd couple. I mean, it started out that was when I watched. Oh, I was a big favorite of mine. It was a big favorite, but I would probably want to kill them. Well, you couldn't live with them. It would be a shoot. It would be half an hour a week, though. If they could get Penny Marshall back on there, it's her original. Myrna. Myrna, yes, the real confidence secretary there. Well, they've done like two different new odd couples. They tried the black odd couple. Daman Wilson. Well, we just saw that the other night. Daman Wilson. Ron Glass. Ron Glass, yeah. They had like a female odd couple, too, somewhere. Well, I know they've tried them with every conceivable demographic type for Broadway. You know, it's like the Chinese odd couple, the blind odd couple.  But I still want to see it come back, darn it. My Three Sons. Now, this show, the thing with, there was a show, and I only have a vague recollection of this. It was around the late, like mid to late 70s. It was a combined, partridge family, My Three Sons reunion movie. Oh my God. And it is, I read about it in this book. It did exist. It did exist. That was not the way to do it. I want to see just My Three Sons. Wait a minute. If you do My Three Sons, can little Dodie be dead? Yeah, we could do that. Okay. It was killed in a tragic accident. So, it's off the theater. Just off the face of the theater. She's a missionary now, and we never see her now. Center of the Peace Corps. Yeah. The Bob Newhart Show. The old, not the new Bob Newhart Show, the old Bob Newhart Show. Okay, you saw how they ended the new one. Yes. They actually went back to the old one. I want to see a reunion, I want to see some sort of movie where, just to see Howard again, to me. And so everyone can sit around and play a lovely two hour rousing game of High Bob. So, we just fill me with joy for that. Hawaii Five-O. Now, this to me is a natural for a thing. You know, kind of a, I mean, Jack Lord's still around, right? Yeah, easily. He just doesn't do anything anymore, as far as I can tell. Good old book, him, Dano. Yeah. They're all still around. Everybody's still around. They think it would be a wonderful thing, you know. You can even tie it in, have like a cameo by Magnum. They're both on the same, you know. Why not? They're both there in the same thing. Hawaii Doctor. What's his name? Jump into and say hello. Island Sun. Island Sun. Richard Chan has a big Hawaii show. Hawaii, on any one of the islands, just happens to be right there. Any show based on that. And even people from Hawaii and I. California could fly over. Surf over, man. Make it cool. Let's see. I also picked my favorite Martian. Certainly, certainly not the most wonderfully written show in the world, but... What was back then, huh? Right, exactly. Now, I considered my favorite Martian, but I thought it was a 50's show. No, no, that was 60's. Is actually a 60's show. It looks like the 50's, but it was a 60's show. And we'd really like to see that. Oh, by the way, I might mention in turn that later this season, we're going to devote an entire show to Bill Bixby. And we're all very excited about the look. Red Perspective. Bill Bixby. So, stay tuned for that. Anyways, I just wanted to mention that in turn. Anyways, now I'm convinced this is going to happen. And I'm convinced before 1995, a major world reunion tour will occur for the Partridge family. Now, Susan Day will leave LA a lot for like one season and go and do this world tour. And be Lori Partridge. Yeah, why not? Nah. I think it'd be nice. Because what Danny Bonducci is now like a... He's like busted. Well, between DJ and Gilbert. He's in between there.   We could get some steady work now. It would be nice to get them away from jail, you know? I considered that one too, but I didn't think Susan Day would go to that. The Rockford Files. I'd really like to see a Rockford Files kind of movie. They've done the Colombo thing. They've done some of the clouds. Almost all the 70's ones are back, I'd say. They've not done Hec Ramsey. That's the one I like. I don't know. And finally, that girl. Oh, Donald. Where is Ted Bessel when we need him? He's directing Tracey Donald. Yeah, I'm directing. Well, Tracey is almost Donald. She's not returning. You really want to hear Marlo Thomas wine again, huh? Wow. Well, yeah, just a little... Donald Hollinger. Cameo by Danny Thomas would be wonderful. Anyways, we wanted, before we got out of here, to get into our picks for the best and the worst of the ones that have already been done. So if you could quickly just jump right into that, sucker. Well, I didn't go for the worst because, my gosh, I just went for my favorites. I enjoyed the Wild Wild West reunion shows. There have been two of them. I enjoyed those. Those were great. Yes. The Man From Uncle. They did one reunion show for that, and they tied in other spy things with it. I enjoyed that one. That one was fun. The Green Acres. I enjoyed the Green Acres. I am so mad that I missed that. I love that one. They could even go on with a series from there. They have that much. They had that strong of a cast. That was a great show. They could do it. Yeah, it was scary. And then, sorely unappreciated by it. Now, the last one there, I'll sure I'll get some dissension from this one. Okay. The bionic thing. They did that reunion thing there. It was for the concept. I mean, what they did with the concept, I thought it was pretty good. You know, they introduced some new characters if they could spend silly with it. Exactly, that's the thing. They did not try to get too silly with it, but they tried to stick with it in continuity and create some new characters. And they did a good job with that. Okay. And then, let me see, that's favorite. Well, I got, my big favorite was Return to Mayberry because literally every single conceivable cast member with, I think, the exception of Aunt B was involved.  And it was just, in fact, they were talking very much at the time that NBC wanted to start the series again. The Annie Griffith Show again. And Annie Griffith said he didn't think it would work as a continuity series, which I think was right. And he wanted another series, so they created Matlock. And that's why Matlock's on the air because of that Return to Mayberry thing. Anyways, my close second was Get Smart Again. Now, this was not the early 80s nude bomb movie. This is not that. This is the far, far superior Get Smart Again it was on, I think, last year first time. And it featured everybody. I mean, they got Striker, they got Siegfried, and Jaime, and Agent 13, and just a darn fine thing. And just to quick go through my personal worst and why they didn't work was Beverly Hillbilly's reunion was about 1981 with almost none of the original cast. I think only like three people, like Pa and... Isn't that the one where they put the little car of Granny on the mantle because Granny got over it? Yes, it was whittling that thing, the whole darn show. It was horrible because there was nobody there. Anyways, did you have anything? Best and worst, Green Acres. Best because they had so much of the cast there. And worst because some of it was so hokey. I actually fell asleep. I didn't see the very end of it. And the Wild Wild West, I always liked those because I like the show anyway. Well, anyways, let's see. Well, that's about wraps it up. We're being told we're just about ready to wrap up here.  We're actually beyond two weeks from now. Pretty darn amazing. Well, we'll have something. We'll have an idea. We've got lots of ideas. We just don't know what to pick from our guys with repository of ideas. 20 years worth of ideas. We'll be on forever until OECTV kicks us out or whatever. So for all of us here at Vast Wasteland, we'll see you in two weeks. Good night, everybody.


And thank you for inviting me here to be part of this event today. I'm delighted to be here. I would like to start at the next part of the session where we're actually going to look at the perspectives from both the public and private sector. But before we get into the panel discussion, I would like to invite Pierce O'Donohue to the stage, who's the director for Future Networks from DG Connect and the European Commission. And he will provide an opening statement that will help put some perspective on our discussion to follow. Pierce, welcome. Thank you very much, Claire. And good afternoon to everybody. Thank you for the invitation. It's great to be back with you. And I would indeed like to address some of the issues that we've just heard about, which are so important to the commission. So dear colleagues, I would like to start by refreshing the commission's commitment to open source technologies, open technologies, as it was just said, for our economy, as well as for the robustness and autonomy of that economy in a competitive, but also geopolitically unstable world. But let's start with a positive, perhaps a slightly old example for most of you because you're so involved in this community. But the best high performance computers of the world are running on open source components. And Linux, the kernel is powering the internet as it were its servers and the devices that connect to it. So even as we see in the tragic events in Ukraine, attempts to cut off internet access, it is one of the elements that contributes to the robustness of the internet, that it can be decentralized and therefore it can be partly self-repairing. And that is one of the many attractions that we have from an open source approach. And it is things like that that, of course, change perceptions about open source even today. And so now, I think with the study and what we're going to discuss, we have to really ask, how can open source contribute to open strategic autonomy? And as I would say, or stress open strategic digital autonomy, if you'd allow me that phrase. Now, of course, we're only interested in it if it can maximize the value for European citizens and businesses while at the same time protecting our society and values. But we are convinced that open source is a key instrument for Europe's digital autonomy. It increases competition in key digital sectors and it improves competitiveness. And at the same time, it also supports the digital transformation of society. And that's a question which this commission has been focusing on and you won't be aware of the number of initiatives which you have taken. And it's not just a question of how to achieve the transformation but also to ensure that in doing it, we are careful as to how it is done. So take as prime examples, for example, the protection of personal data. That's a well rehearsed example and one that I will actually come back to. But also, what about the protection of the environment, for example? Or we have to ensure that digital technologies not only respecting their environmental responsibilities and helping to meet our green deal objectives as an industry or as a set of industries, including of course, carbon efficiency. But how does open source help all sectors of the economy and society reduce their carbon footprint? And that's how we have to look at all of these challenges of transformation. So when I listen with great interest to the report that's just been presented, we do have to address technological dependency and we have to address supplier dependency, which do, as I think I understood from the presentation, have different characteristics and therefore require slightly different approaches. But together, we have to say, what are the best actions to overcome these dependencies and to actually achieve our transformation goals? So open source has of course many strengths which you are familiar with. And it does change the way that we think about policymaking. How do we, for example, think of cybersecurity of open source, which has changed and matured recently? But how do we scrutinize artificial intelligence, which is powered by open source when we are focused more and more on that as a driver for the operation of entire computing ecosystems as well as our communications networks? So open source as opposed to proprietary approaches to, for example, artificial intelligence or even to cybersecurity itself will make a very significant difference to the way in which we then ensure that there is societal control, that there is an awareness and transparency about what is happening, but also so that we can benefit from these technologies and not these slaves to them. Because we want open source to help as it can be to support our autonomy. Now that includes getting leadership where we are at the moment perhaps lagging behind. But it's also about exploiting the natural advantages, the natural leadership that we have here in Europe. So as I referred already once to personal data, if you take our approach to personal data or to other societal issues like disinformation, we can see that having an open source approach will indeed help us to have greater transparency and certainty while not actually having to interfere with the technology as maybe the case if we were dealing with entirely proprietary standards or technologies. At the same time, we can lead by example because we can with our values, we can use this open source approach in ensuring that they are hard baked into the technology and that therefore we while supporting European values and norms are setting a high standard which we reward those who respect those high standards. We do not allow others to undercut those standards by breaking the rules. And that means that on the global level, we are leading by example, improving the human-centric nature of our technologies, setting high social and moral standards. But at the same time in a very cold business sense or logic as well, we are actually giving ourselves an economic and competitive advantage. But I'd like to dwell a bit more on those values because the European digital strategy that we are driving in the commission does look to have people put at the center of a fair and competitive digital economy. Whether it's basic issues such as freedom or democracy or equality, but also simply consumer rights and the ability of others to enter a market. These are all elements which underpin sustainable digital society and they are the society that is the type of society which Europe was. But we have to be realistic and as I heard Céline say very clearly to gain scale, we have to work together. We have to be realistic about the abilities of individual, smaller European companies to themselves take on some of the giants in order to develop a foothold in the markets, in order to be able to promote and push open computing, open hardware, open electronics, open science, whatever the technology is. Those open technologies, the phrase that Céline used repeatedly will leave me to think about open hardware which we don't talk about as much but open hardware platforms are developing fast and that represents another form of modularity. It represents another form of transparency and by the way, will be increasingly important as once again, we completely lock together our transformation goals of digital on one side but linked and interlocked with the green transformation objective that we have as well where open source hardware will actually contribute and allow us again as a society to have transparency about what the equipment is made of, how it's working and how it's disposed of afterwards. So those are some of the key issues that we look at and I heard quite a few resonances in the report that's been presented. And what we have to remember is that when I hear though about access to critical technologies perhaps we have to go beyond that. It's not just a question of access. It's also about being involved in their development and of course their use. So as well as being autonomous, we have to be influential. We have to ensure that we do actually bring others with us with regard to the standard process, the standardization process for open source. It means that we don't want to be independent if that means being isolated, if that means creating silos because in fact what we want is to benefit globally from this digital ecosystem and we want others to benefit from the work that we are doing. So interconnected or even interdependent is just as important as the autonomy part of what is a key part of the European strategy. I have to mention lastly before I stop just the question of cybersecurity. It's always raised. Sometimes it is raised as an issue by those who are not keen on an open source approach. I think in recent years the open source community has shown robustly how secure and in fact how many advantages in terms of security the open source approach presents. But we have to maintain that security. We have to maintain that robustness and ensure that it is not used to undermine the values that are referred to. But in the current crisis that we are in we see once again that the ability of the whole community using standards or technologies that are transparent to assist in the situation such as that in Ukraine is something that we would like to see reproduced elsewhere. So to conclude, open source will help Europe to become more autonomous. It represents an area where we are and can be a leader. And of course it is an area which by taking an altruistic approach it contributes directly to the improvement, to the competitiveness and the welfare of Europe as a whole and not just the company or the sector that you are working in. And that is why we welcome today's report. I'm very happy to have the opportunity to speak to you once again and I do look forward to the discussion. Thank you very much. Thank you so much Pierce for those opening words. It was great to hear your perspective for the discussion that is about to come. So at this point in time I would like to invite on stage our virtual panel. So that is please welcome in fact, Vittorio Bertola who's Head of Policy and Innovation for Open Exchange and folks you can wave as you come on just so that we can know who people are. Though you've been very helpful and actually you all put your names in. So thank you very much for that, but welcome Vittorio. We have Marco Alexander Bright who's the Deputy Director General for Artificial Intelligence, Data and Digital Technologies at the Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Climate Action. Hello, Marco Alexander. We've got Deborah Bryant who's the Senior Director of the Oslo at Red Hat. Hi Deb. And we have Mike Lynxfair who's the Head of Developer Policy at GitHub. Welcome Mike. So thank you all for joining us here today. We have heard some amazing and really interesting report from Savannah in terms of the discussion around digital autonomy. We have also heard some great statements from Pierce around the perspective of the European Commission. So now we're going to have a look specifically in this panel at perspectives from the private sector. Thinking about both the problems that they raised and also potentially some of the solutions that were suggested and to get your perspectives on that. So let's start today with Vittorio because you are a representative of the European tech company. So in the context of the discussion around competitiveness and scaling up and competing in the global digital market being a European company, how do you formulate this kind of idea of a problem? How do you think about digital autonomy from your perspective? Well, first of all, thanks for inviting us. I mean, we are actually one of the not so many European internet SMEs. And I mean, you can formulate this problem in many different ways that we could talk about financing, scaling and so. But I'd like to focus on a couple of things that are more relevant to what we are discussing in terms of autonomy. So I'd say that we still have as European SMEs are challenges in accessing markets and these challenges are mostly connected to well dominant positions that we all know but also to a sort of a dependent mindset that in Europe we still have, I mean, we still depend on how the internet industry has developed in other parts of the world, like the US of course, but also China. So we see this also in the policies that we see. We see, for example, still too many parts of the European ecosystem and policy ecosystem looking for the unicorn which is a good mandate.  And that's fine. We hope we can get something like that but Europe doesn't work like that. So Europe is rather like an archipelago of countries or nations or languages that produces horizontal alliances between SMEs. So maybe if we as a German company we are presenting many counties but maybe not in all the European countries. So maybe we look for a local partner and we build an alliance and this is how the internet market develops in Europe. And open source and open standards are really the only model that promotes this kind of open center of operation. But also there is a lack of education of laziness in the IT procurement people especially at the lower level, more on the territory. So I mean, there's people that say we've been using that property solution for 30 years and so we can just continue using that. And they don't think, I mean, the fact they spend the money can or cannot create economy and growth and know how locally in their own territory depending on how they spend it. And so even if we have now like 20 years of policies for public money to create public order still it's not happening everywhere. And still, I mean, there are people in the procurement environment that do not seem to get the weakness in strategic terms of having public services that are hosted outside of your local environment, of your local jurisdiction, maybe subject to laws by other countries that allow access to personal data. So these are challenges that are still not well understood by many procurement people. And then we have the actual dominant positions and the dominant positions that we see in all the international, almost all the international now have a silo that is building a dominant position with few exceptions. And these are not just fueling the laziness because of course, if you have to pick a service you will pick the dominant one. These are not just influencing the future because then the companies that have a dominant position will control the culture of the standardization organization and the design of the future technologies. And we'll ensure that, I mean, we will still continue to build this kind of over the top and click the centralized silos that contribute to further dominant positions in the hands of all the same very few big companies that operate globally. But I mean, actually these dominant positions just make it impossible or very hard to enter new markets. So to make an example, we are a company that makes, we make webmails, webmail platforms or DNS services. And so some of the big tail codes in Europe use our webmail platform. Maybe we would like to allow the final users of these webmail platforms to also send the instant messages, but we cannot because all the instant messaging world is made of these silos that basically do not allow third parties to exchange messages with their users because they want to keep them closed in the silos so that they are not subject to competition basically. So they escape competition by closing down the silos. And so this is why we need a regulatory intervention. So we, of course, we have been active in looking at the digital market sector, now the data actor, all these new things that, I mean, we have hope that we will get some of the solutions. We will get the interoperability that we need to allow, for example, to have a service like ours to send messages to instant messaging user or maybe exchange social media messages or these kinds of things. And this can create innovation, can allow new companies to step up, not just existing one. But what we see is that there's, I mean, we seem to be getting too little too late to use a very long internal terminology in terms of business. So it's striking that we've been having in Europe heavily regulated ISP tailco industries for a lot of time. And so interoperability and switching in these kinds of industries is easy for the final user now. But for some reason, we cannot get the same internal services. And this is really something that I can't explain. So I hope that we will get it in the near future. Thank you. Thank you, Vittorio. I love your analogy about the fact that we shouldn't necessarily be always looking for unicorns. It's unicorns and rainbows isn't necessarily what we're looking for here. And I think the opportunity that was described earlier in terms of the SME market and how we have the potential to provide really, really valuable services in 26 languages and with very specific requirements for each particular jurisdiction is one that we should definitely take advantage of. And I really liked your point about the regulation around this idea of making it necessary to actually wouldn't it be great if it was open so that it would actually allow for folks in SMEs to get more involved even easier than it is at the moment. And so with that, I'm thinking about that global aspect and the global market and how to enter into that. I might come to you, Deb, because you're from a global company and thinking about Red Hat and the global market. Can you perhaps comment about this idea of technology lock-in, supplier lock-in, how open technologies can help counter those kinds of challenges? Yeah, absolutely. So thanks for the opportunity. Sivan made a number of deep comments on the status of this. I don't want to repeat a lot of the valuable content he provided in terms of today's suffer world and the rising star of open source. But we do know that the last decade has brought radical changes in acceleration and adoption. And in particular, the last several years of the pandemic have really greatly accelerated the adoption and participation in software communities in all sectors of society. And I will say as we continue our panel discussion, I would suggest that the key for Europe may be all sectors of society where the US, where Red Hat started has been a software economy for a long time, may have left other sectors behind in terms of academia, research, and civil society. We're seeing that catch up, but I think Europe has an advantage there in terms of the way they've thought about certain things. When Red Hat started 30 years ago, they really stood alone as the only vendor that was doing commercial support. That's dramatically changed, but that original model for engineering, that original model for the business still remains today, right? And so I think it's been a proof point to suggest that a company can keep its code open and still provide value to its customers and its stakeholders. I think this is very important in that cognitive dissonance we have to get through about commercializing or providing commercial support and value into an open ecosystem is something that companies will become successful with as they adopt that model. On any scale, whether they're a unicorn, a rare company, or a small company, it's the same ecosystem. And so there's an equal opportunity to take advantage of a major global asset to do that kind of work. And I think it just goes without saying that this kind of approach enables the notion of digital autonomy, being able to participate, to choose to change your technology stack or decide you wanna participate yourself here and happy with your vendor or you can change a vendor. These kinds of open standards and interoperability that open source brings really does level the playing field in a different way that allows all levels of at least commercial participation, let alone collaboration in civil society. Thanks Deb. And I think you're dead right about the idea. Isn't it wonderful that you can provide the value in the perspective of actually giving people more autonomy and influence over the technology as well as the security that something is supported and that they have someone to call if something goes wrong. So it is definitely seems to be a model that should and could be leveraged much more widely for all organizations, big or small, as you mentioned. So next I'll come to you Mike from GitHub's perspective because you've been engaged as well in open source and policy for many years. So from your perspective, how do you see this framing of the problem from an open tech perspective? Yeah, thanks. And I guess start off by endorsing what Deb led off with lots of deep insights from Sivan and as well as from person in the report as well. I really encourage everybody to read that. And from an kind of open policy perspective, it's, I think everybody here really gets it that I see kind of two naive tensions. If it were one hearing about digital sovereignty, you might think this is kind of a nationalistic take and doesn't, and it's actually a threat to open and collaboration. But if you understand the open strategic autonomy, the criticality of open, it's not about that at all. And from an open perspective, historically open policy has been very, very focused on copyright and just having the necessary permissions to be able to study, modify, share, run software. I think what brings, what sort of makes those seemingly, or those kind of naive initial takes come together is really the notion that you need capability. You need to develop capability in order to actually achieve strategic autonomy and to take advantage of those freedoms in access that you naturally have to open source software. And I think the sort of private sector journey really kind of underlines that and will be greatly expanded by the public sector and policy journey of kind of initially seeing open sources something to be feared or not understood and then kind of as just kind of a free resource and companies and other organizations that are really leveraging open source are doing so by participating and following best practices. Most obvious one working with upstream and kind of institutionalizing that through the involvement of OSPOS. And I think that that can all be adopted is being adopted in the public sector. But I think it becomes much more interesting because a public sector has broader goals than new companies. So to kind of account for openness to see openness kind of as a policy tool across a bunch of different sectors. And you know, Pierce Adonahy really highlighted a number of those. So I think that that is gonna that kind of engagement from the public sector is gonna increase the size of open source and create a lot of cultural change and even conflict that I think is gonna be healthy. I think we can also see that from private sector engagement with open source over the last 10 plus years that corporations are kind of pursuing their own goals but also contributing mightily to the growth of open source. And I think that the same thing is gonna happen with government engagement with pursuing own goals, making sure that public sector values are a part of the open source community. And that's gonna make us all stronger in the end. Thank you for that. And I love, I mean, personally, I love the idea that we might actually be able to get rid of the whole term of digital sovereignty or digital autonomy as a standalone term because it does cause this confusion. But if we could replace it with open strategic digital autonomy then I think that would be a lovely change for us to have. So thank you for that. I'm also gonna put a pin in your comment about the idea that having more people being involved in contributing might actually cause a change in the ecosystem that might even cause a bit of conflict. So maybe we'll come back to that actually and think about what that might mean for the broader open source community because it's an interesting one as well. But before we do, I want to hear from Marco Alexander because you work at the German Federal Ministry of Economic Affairs and Climate Action and Pierce in fact mentioned the link as well between the need for our goals and values for the EU to have a link between the digital goals as well as the green transition that we have to actually go through. But can you maybe then comment about in general about the digital competitiveness issue and how open technologies may service that? And if you want to comment as well on the green transition as part of that because of your background, that would be fantastic too. Yeah, thank you first of all for having me it is afternoon and a good afternoon to all of you. I fully agree with a lot of you all said but please give me the opportunity to kind of give my own point of view to some of these issues. The first of all, I think competitiveness and sovereignty in the German debate is sovereignty and this gets confused with autonomy because autonomy is something very different in German and in French than autonomy and digital sovereignty. But let's stick to the autonomy discussion for a second because it shows the apartness and the ambiguity of the terms. In the end, this autonomy and competitiveness are two interlinked concepts. Competitiveness itself is not a goal that you should strive for. In the end, it's what the things that competitiveness leads to is what you aim for as a government. It's jobs and wealth and the wealth is distributed in all the societies. So in the end, competitiveness is just a measure of how much wealth can you in the end attribute to societal actors. And why is competitiveness interlinked with sovereignty? You can see it right now in these international affairs because reduced vulnerabilities and strength and sovereignty go hand in hand. You take for example, the product prices that all of us are using each and every day. They are highly dependent on the commodity prices and the commodity prices are highly dependent on energy prices. So in the end, we are not able right now to really see how energy prices are going to be interlinked with product prices and the competitiveness of goods being manufactured in the European Union. And you can even see, and this is way closer to what did our background, we do not know yet how energy prices are going to relate to cloud computing prices. We will see price hike in the next month, I assume, because otherwise the companies, especially the larger ones that have been relying on lock-in effects in the last years, how they are going to conceptualize or do these energy prices within their own product. So what is digital autonomy? What is digital sovereignty from my point of view or from our point of view? It's not that we need to do everything by ourselves. It needs, we need to be able to do whatever is needed by ourselves. So the concept of autonomy is not a nationalistic concept. It's kind of a safeguard against international crisis. As we see now, it's kind of a safeguard against dependencies that get right into the middle of your economic vulnerabilities. So again, it's not a nationalistic concept. It's closely interlinked with competitiveness and it's closely interlinked with the welfare of all of us. So second comment that I would like to make is how do we get, and this is something that Vittorio and Deborah mentioned. How do we make an ecosystem competitive? If you want to build tech, this is my civil servant, sorry for that, not an entrepreneur, but this is my plane view. You need three things. You need bright people, you need money and you need an ecosystem where bright people and the money find together and you create opportunities for businesses to foster and for opportunities to kind of get the next big thing. And Europe, Vittorio, it was a great introduction. It's highly federalized, it's governments, it's ecosystems, it's tech bubbles. It was not one European tech bubble. There is a lot of tech bubbles in Berlin and Paris everywhere. And if I want to set up an ecosystem, a physical ecosystem, and I think physical ecosystems are very well left the effort, you will not get this in Europe. Why so? Because the French, they wanted it in Paris. The Germans, they wanted it in Berlin or in Munich and the Italians wanted it in Florence and you can count that for all the 27 member states, six. And so in the end, this physical ecosystem, that culminating point where opportunities, ideas, brains and money come together, it's almost impossible for Europeans to achieve. But what we can do is kind of master the technique of fulfilling the promise of an ecosystem in a digital way. And this is something that we are trying to do with regulation, data act, for example, the data governance act, for example, the upcoming AI act, for example, and it's something that we try to achieve with the data availability and data spaces, for example, via the GAIA acts initiative. So I would like to emphasize the role of open source in all this. Why is open source so important? You all said that because it reduces the dependencies, but there is an opportunity here. If we are able to set up the most important digital ecosystem in Europe on the basis of open source, we give the bright minds that really live the open source idea, the opportunity to change the world. And as of now, there's companies, Deborah, that really do this greatly, but we are still lacking this huge ecosystem that's not comprised of by only one company, but that kind of attributes the knowledge and the money and the brains through all the nations, through a small medium enterprises, to big companies and this ecosystem that really where these ideas can really strive to promote this and to reduce vulnerabilities as we have seen a look for Shell. We are in Germany setting up a sub on tech fund. We are in the process of trying to find out how to exactly which angle we should choose for setting up such a funding. And such a one stop shop for open source ideas, but we strongly committed to that via the new coalition treaty of the new German government. And let me finish with one more thought. Right now we see how important security is, especially if you really, really need it. And right now we are in a situation where international affairs have shown us that we really, really need security. And cyber security is just one part of it, but the problem right now from a European perspective is that we actually lack this scalable, this big size scalable AI enhanced platform enhanced cyber security company. There is a lot of them in the world. They are all in the United States. And if you talk about strategic autonomy, then we should think about cyber security probably too. And this is going to be one of the issues that we should address the next four or five years because otherwise we are having the cloud computing debate 2.0. Thank you. No, thank you, Marco, that's Andrew. And thank you for making that distinction about how we can think about autonomy and sovereignty in the context of just removing dependencies or any risk that we may have from that perspective. And then so thinking about that, and you yourself have mentioned some of the ideas that are happening in Germany, like the sovereign tech fund and even some ideas about where we might put it. If cyber security might be one of those areas that might be a high priority, but also now thinking back to what Savan mentioned in terms of his eight various different ideas around maybe looking at changing leadership culture to actually get engagement here, or for example, developing more OSPOS, or for example, making sure to actually buy more SMEs, making that easier, that may actually have impact on procurement and things like that. Can I ask each of you now maybe to think about what you would recommend in order to reduce our dependency on any one supplier or meta supplier or technology, but to enable this idea of a proliferation of more European based solutions that might help reduce our dependency. So I'll go around again and maybe we'll just take the same order just to ask what would be one idea that you think either from Savan's list or another idea that you would think that we should double down on in order to reduce that dependency, Vittorio. Well, as I was saying, I think that we really need to open up the internet again and prevent its centralization because decentralization is happening to the hands of companies that are not in Europe.  Now, if you want to develop AI based cybersecurity capabilities, at least for network attacks, you have to see the network. So you have to ISPs and network operators that have access to at least certain features of the traffic of their users, so that they, for example, can detect when computers are infected and they are spreading malware or botnets, so they can look into, I mean, for suspicious unusual traffic patterns and so. But now what is happening is that all the big internet platforms are pushing this model of an encrypted internet in which basically you have an operating system like in mobiles, which they control or a device. I mean, a physical device, IoT device that they control and they have servers in the cloud, in the US or even in Europe, but servers that only they have access to. And there are encrypted channels that make it so that the ISP doesn't even know whether there's a connection that is happening. I mean, even the DNS, which was a traditional point in which at least the ISP had some idea where the users were going and it is now disappearing and going into this invisible encrypted, which is good for privacy, maybe to a certain extent, except that maybe, I mean, these platforms sometimes live of monetizing data. But basically we are making all the European ISP and network operators going dark and they have no way to see the traffic. So they have no way to build the cybersecurity capabilities. They're actually losing the ones that already exist. So I mean, this is all interlinked. This is why I think we have to make those at the architectural level of the future that we want to build over the network and the architecture we want to have over the network. And we have to have the strength to discuss this with the global platforms to a certain extent, impose it, but at least, I mean, this is part of the sovereignty part. But at least to discuss with them and find ways so that the European actors actually have access to the data they need. Okay, so I'll take from that in terms of the open standards and open data, including the kind of tension between privacy and what people expect from that and the idea of encrypted privacy and all the rest of it. That's another whole conundrum that we could spend all day talking about, I'm guessing. But I hear you in terms of... I mean, encryption is not always about privacy because you encryptively send your data to people that exploit them. You're losing privacy. So that's your choice. No, thank you. But I take from you the idea of having the open standards and open data and in order to be able to regulate for that so that we do have that chance and that access to be able to innovate is what I took from your comments. So thank you, Victoria. Deborah, would you like to maybe comment on that from your perspective, what you think can be done or should be done as a first port of call in order to help reduce dependencies and open things up? Well, I'll float an idea that's sort of in my swim lane which harkens back to the idea of Ospo's. That came out in these recommendations a couple of years ago, but I didn't think it went far enough because it was just generic and promoted the idea of ensuring that this was sort of cross society, multi-tiered academia, the public sector and the private sector. And if you play on this idea, think in broad terms, open source projects and initiatives have as a fundamental part of their success. A governance model where each participant comes to the table with their agenda. It's not all the same, right? Each organization has different objectives, but the key thing is they're understood and there's great power and understanding. So if you think of using a network of Ospo's as a strong tactic to enable this kind of collaboration and strengthen, then you could have a situation where you're really looking at this going forward is an economic development strategy where you understand what universities need to move their issues forward because in the essential part of this idea of creating an Ospo, what really needs to be called out is it's not the creation of the thing itself that's as valuable as the deliberative process of engaging the organization in speaking what their hidden or expressed interests are, what they think the value of participating in an open source ecosystem is, what they hope to gain, how they think they'll do that and to have concurrence that where it's aligned with either the company's business goals, it's aligned with a civil society entity and nonprofit, whatever their mission is. And I've worked in each three sectors, I have a great appreciation in the public sector. Our motivations are different, but we're all coming to the table with what we need. So my suggestion would be to really build a very robust network across Europe of Ospos and build an ecosystem in that way. My colleague from Germany has mentioned that building a virtual kind of ecosystem is really incredibly important, not just because we're not still all meeting during the pandemic, because nobody wants to debate where the center of gravity will physically be in a project. And fortunately, open source and its model has had the benefit of being ubiquitous and global in that respect. And thank you for that. And I'd like to add that one of the things that has really drawn me to the open source ecosystem is this accessibility from anywhere in the world that it allows for and not having to be at the center of any particular software hub, but also being able to contribute is a huge benefit. So thank you for calling that out. And also, I would imagine as well from an Ospo perspective, there was some discussion earlier about the capability building and one of the other great benefits Ospos can provide is also being that center for understanding the capability gaps that may be in any organization and then being able to help fill that. Would you mind just like maybe even just commenting on that as well because sometimes I wonder if the capabilities required, say in the public sector might be slightly different than in the private sector or do you see also that being an opportunity for Ospos to collaborate on? Yeah, absolutely. In fact, even with unless you just take one sector like the private sector, the rationale and the purpose in what an open source program office does will vary. Ours is very different than Microsoft. So you may have a company or an institution that's really well versed in open source and the leadership is bought in or won. The mission may be trying to convince the rest of the company need to come along and educate their engineers. That's not my job at Red Hat because all the engineers already know how to do this but instead we have other concerns. So I would say that organizational development is always key for many Ospos to make sure that there's education outreach at all levels of the company for managers so they understand why it's important to give their employees time to participate in an open source community that doesn't apparently look like it's a straight line to product. It may be working with a legal team on peer to bring along their understandings. That's not that depth. But you do have to, I think the Ospos role is really to begin by indexing what the company's capability is and then understanding what those gaps are and developing a program that's specific to whether it's a public sector or a university playing on their strengths or a company. You need to build a plan according to where you start. Thank you, thank you for that. So, Mike, I'll come back to you now and it's still sticking with me what you said earlier about the idea that and even as I'm hearing the discussion about capabilities building and everyone coming from a different perspective and how people's capabilities may differ. So thinking about if we are successful at this and then there's an onslaught of additional new software developers into the open source ecosystem wouldn't that be great, yay? With all these diverse backgrounds and needs and perhaps coming with perhaps what might be a different set of values or regulations that they have to contend with at a local level. You mentioned the idea that that might actually sometimes cause conflict in the ecosystems that they may be contributing to. I'm really interested to like dig a little deeper there and do you see that as a blocker as something that can be absorbed within the ecosystem? In short, yes. Or in short, no, it's not a blocker and yes it can be absorbed in the ecosystem. I mean, I think there are a lot of different ways conflict can manifest itself in open source but a key one is I've created an open source technology. You want to accomplish something similar but you've decided to start your own project instead of using mine. And as a best practice you should definitely try to make a single project better so that everybody in the world can benefit but people have different names, companies have different names and so do nation states and sometimes they'll want to go their own way and I think to some extent that is fine. Of course, the more open source best practices are understood by everyone the more collaboration we're going to have but we'll also have people who think they know how to do it better and to some extent that's fine and that's one of the ways that open source is more conflictual but also more innovative because we can be dependent on a particular piece of software Linux kernel as canonical example maybe that everybody in the world relies on but we also need people to think perhaps hubristically that they can do better and when you have the resources of a large corporation or even more so a nation state sometimes big bets will be made that are seen as bad bets I guess by the community because you're not contributing to existing projects perhaps but I think in the end that's positive. I did want to bring one idea that I think ought to be pursued to the table and I think within this conversation we all understand that a healthier open source ecosystem is going to lead to more strategic autonomy for everybody however it's not widely understood so I think a key thing is how do we make that more legible especially to policy makers and I think the European Commission study that open form Europe led around was a huge step in that direction showing the economic impact of open source and open hardware but I think we need a lot more in that direction and that's going to at a meta level allow a lot more investment in things like open sovereignty funds and policies that are friendly to global collaboration, et cetera. Well, thank you Mike for that and maybe building on that because going back to Marco Alexander who started this thread for me but when you have been successful in getting a tech sovereignty fund in Germany and perhaps therefore might be a little bit ahead of some of the other countries in the EU so building on what Mike has just said that one of our goals should be this broader education of policy makers and politicians and citizens in general to understand the value of this and what we really do mean by open strategic digital autonomy do you have any advice or guidance or suggestions about how we can do that at a broader scale across Europe? Yeah, well, that's a difficult question. Why is that so? Because I'm on the receiving end of the information too. I'm not on the giving end. When we thought about how we could foster the open source ecosystem and we were pretty sure that obviously there's three things. First, this is a global ecosystem and how is a nation state or how could a regional power like European Union be connected to this? Or can it be a single point of contact for such an ecosystem? How does that work? And we decided, okay, this is not something that a nation state should do. It's something that people that understand the ecosystem, people that understand the people working with open source should do and not us. We just give them money and kind of give it like a policy push for this. And the second thing that all of us needed to understand is that open source is actually more secure than it sounds because there are still people around, especially in the security area that think that open source is open and thus insecure. And it's the other way around. And to turn their heads is pretty much an endeavor that you cannot only do from the outside as experts. It needs to be done by informed policymakers, as you said. I think the third is to be not only to understand that problems and to understand the machinations and the mechanisms of the global open source ecosystem, but to open up governmental procurement for open source. And this is something that of utmost importance as I think because there is a government spend a lot of money for their software, spend a lot of money for digital solutions. And if open source solutions can compete with the incumbents, then we have kind of this the biggest policy push that the policymakers can actually achieve. And I think if we try to understand all these three and try to implement them in policies together and just as I said, it's kind of, I'm exhaling the spirit of the German coalition, coalition treaty of the new coalition because it's actually written in there. So the policy, the informed policymakers have been doing signing calls there. Well, thank you for that. And I think that the procurement idea is one that certainly I know has come up in Ireland. I'm also involved in the open Ireland network trying to move the needle for open source in Ireland. And that has been a common theme or frustration with some folks in this area, as well as the security one in terms of people's broader understanding of those sort of things. So they seem to be common themes that we could all potentially work on together from a communication perspective. So we're coming to the end of this panel session, unfortunately, because this has been a great one and we could probably go around again for more ideas. But I really want to say a very big thank you to all our panelists for this private sector perspective on both the challenge and the solutions for this part of the event. So I will wrap up here for this part of the panel and say a big thank you to Bittorio and to Deborah and to Mike and to Marco Alexander.