You're watching FJTN, the federal judicial television network. The mandate, which is the sort of the thing that divests our court of jurisdiction, is put on hold. And this mandate is a very important thing for our court because we have to hold on to that mandate until our court has spoken its final word on the case. A very important part of case closing is just the fact that jurisdiction is transferring from our court back to the district court. And it's very important that that procedure is followed correctly. Case managers should be very organized, should have a thorough understanding of the frappe rules, have good communication skills, and basically not be afraid to ask questions. We for a sense of accomplishment, we have basically worked with the case from the beginning to the end and then it's finally over our desk and we've done our part. Once an opinion has been initially rendered in an appellate case, you might think the case is closed. But there's quite a bit more that still has to happen before a case is formally closed and a mandate issued. Hi, I'm Bob Fagan with the Federal Judicial Center and I want to welcome you to our third broadcast on the administration of appellate cases. On today's broadcast, we're going to take a look at some of the processes and some of the challenges that appellate court staff face. During the period from when an opinion is rendered to the issuance of the mandate and the formal closing of the case. As a result of this broadcast, we hope you'll be more familiar with issues and challenges facing court staff during the case closing phase, be able to identify some techniques and effective practices developed by other court units to meet those challenges and be familiar with some of the information sources that might provide assistance to you. Let's take a minute to look at today's agenda. In our first panel, we're going to discuss opinions dissemination practices as well as the collection of statistical case closing data. Our second panel discussion will focus on how petitions for rehearing are handled, including rehearing in bank. Again, the focus will be on challenges that are faced and effective practices that have been utilized. Finally, our third panel will cover practices relating to issuances of the mandate and records management. As part of our discussions, we'll also be turning to court staff via conference call who have volunteered to share their practices in each of these important areas. These court units will tell us what works for them. These same practices may not work in your court, but that's for your judges and your court to decide. We'll have a final wrap up at the end. So we've got quite a bit to talk about in just a very short period of time. We want to encourage all of our folks to participate, ask questions, share your thoughts with us. We have a toll-free fax number that will appear on the screen throughout this broadcast. Please feel free to use the fax form that was also on the jnet.fjc.dcn at any time during the broadcast. And don't forget that the participant guide is also available at the site. If you haven't already downloaded it, you may want to pay special notice to the effective practices submitted by your colleagues and included as part of the guide. Okay, let's get started now with our first panel discussion, Opinions, Dissemination, and the Collection of Statistical Case Closing Data. Let me introduce the members of our first panel to you. They are Susan Dino, Case Closeout Supervisor with the US Court of Appeals for the Ace Circuit, and Cynthia Motley, Court Services Manager with the US Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit. Let me welcome both of you. We're going to be focusing on case closing. That's obviously a very, very critical period of time. There's still, as mentioned before, quite a lot of activity that remains to be done. And in this particular panel, we're going to really focus on Opinions, Dissemination, a big process in every court, and the collection of statistical case closing data. Cynthia, let me start with you. The panel has reached an opinion. What happens next in terms of preparing the opinion for dissemination? What's the process that's used in the Seventh Circuit? Well, the very first thing that needs to be determined is whether the decision is going to be published or unpublished. And by local rule, that's determined by the majority of the panel. For the published Opinions, the authoring judge assigned drafts an opinion. That draft is then emailed from chambers directly to our printer and also to the clerk's office. And then from the clerk's office point, we begin a manual log so we can track down the opinion from the draft till it's actually released. And there's a little bit of data quality in there as well where we look for format things that we might suggest to judges for possible changes they might want to consider. Things like how the caption conventions, lower court numbers, seniority of judges, and so on. So we jot down notes as to what we're going to suggest if we find anything. And once the printer gets the draft, then when they have what we call a galley, that then gets sent to the clerk's office. And we once again log that in and include any suggestions that we have along with the draft and send it to the judge's chambers. And they make their changes at that point. They review it and make whatever changes. And then they once again forward it back to the clerk's office. We once again log it in. And then we send that to the printer. And that's as far as that process. So you're making formatting changes. Obviously, you're not making any changes on the opinion itself. That's for chambers to do. Substantive changes as to content are made in judges chambers. But it's like also case numbers or anything, any of that vital data, that kind of data you will make. Correct, okay. Susan, same question to you. Does that differ at all from what you do in the 8th Circuit? It does somewhat. It doesn't seem as if we have quite as many steps. Our opinions also come directly from chambers, from the authoring judge. And we will go through a process of screening that, making sure that it meets all the guidelines for opinion set up, things like whether it states if it's published or unpublished, the form or the judges, if they're in the correct order, seniority-wise. Also, we're looking for things like single lines hanging on pages, widows and orphans, that type of thing. And we'll correct those small things that we see. If there's anything larger, it will go back to chambers for them to correct. And we will make sure it looks perfect. Once it does, we'll put a date on it, which is we date those two days ahead to allow for printing. And we will reformat those into PDF, send all of them to our automation department, which posts those on our website the day of issuance. And the printing is done. We have a local printer that comes and picks those up. Anything, any opinion that is nine pages or more is done by our printer. And we have recently started to print in-house any opinions that are eight pages or less. And that's working really well. I'm sure that saves a little time and money. Of course, all the opinions that come down look perfect when they come down. Do you have a, I think we had spoken once before about with visiting judges sometimes they're not quite familiar with. Right, we do have visiting judges occasionally that author opinions. And although we do give them a nice guideline, printed handout, they don't do it as often, and so they're just not as familiar with the exact format and how it should look. So we do have to revise those a good deal of the time. We will ask them to resend it if it's really bad, but most of the time we'll try and fix it up for them. So the importance one, like in all of our other broadcasts having to do with appellate case management, real emphasis on communication, real emphasis on quality control. Let's take it one step further now. You've got it back. Now the question is how are you disseminating it? Who gets it? Is it available to the public if you use the web? When does it get on the web, Cynthia? Well for us the very, very first step is to call the attorneys and the lower court judge that authored the original decision from the lower court. Once that's taken care of, our printer emails us a PDF version of the opinion and that gets uploaded onto our website and that's available to the public. As far as mailing from the clerk's office, we do a limited mailing on that day and it's usually to counsel the press and a hard copy to the lower court judge. Those get mailed. But the massive mail from our subscribers list is done by a printer on a weekly basis and so they take care of distributing to the other lower court judges or district court judges in our circuit as well as any paid subscribers on our list. You obviously let the judge from the lower clerk know right away because you want to have that judge start to think in terms once even though the mandate comes later. Right. We started that process as courtesy actually to the lower court judge so that they know first hand particularly if a case is being remanded so that they know before the press knows and then they're not surprised with the phone call and saying by the way how do you think about this opinion and so on and they've never heard of it. It's likewise with same thing with the attorneys. So that's why we always make sure that they are called first so that we make sure that they know before and that's the day of the release. And they're aware especially if it's remanded they're aware that the clock once the mandate is issued the clock will start. Susan again same kind of a question. How is it in the A circuit? We also do an advance copy to our district court judge and that is actually two days before the opinion really issues. So they've got some warning especially if it's reversed or remanded they like to know that they like to be the first one to know that. So we do send that and then the day that the opinion is filed we send hard copies to all council of record and also an electronic email or fax copy to those that are signed up for our electronic noticing system. Those that are not signed up will only just get the mailed copy which will take a few days and we don't call them and give them an advance warning so that's a little bit of an incentive to sign up for our electronic noticing system. And then we will also give printed copies to all of our 8th circuit judges and we have the U.S. District Court Eastern Missouri in our building so they all get printed copies as well. Locality is everything. Absolutely a little courtesy there and we have a subscriber list that receive them email every day and there's about 60 on that list that includes the press and then there's a subscriber list of about 100 that we mailed to once a week and the printer used to mail that as well but now since we're printing some in-house he brings his half and then we add what we've printed to that and send those out every week. You've also let folks know that there's a certain time of the day that you announce your opinions. That's right. We only issue our opinions once a day and that's right at 10 a.m. that's when they all go on our website and everyone in the circuit knows that's our practice so they'll watch and look for those and or if they're calling to find out whether their opinions been issued they know that they can call shortly after 10 and they won't have to call again until the next day. But the public also has access then on the website to some of the opinions so that everyone can see it. I mentioned before that we have a number of folks from various other circuits joining us today and they have very graciously volunteered to tell us a little bit about some of their effective practices and we have Debbie Graham the opinions department supervisor from the Fifth Circuit on the line right now. Debbie I understand your circuit handles the dissemination of opinions a little differently in terms of getting it on the web when you get it on the web right. Yeah we put it on a little faster than some of the other ports. So let me tell you a little bit how we do it. First of all we receive our opinions from the judges chambers and once we get them in the office. I'm hearing some background noise. Go ahead Debbie. And once we receive the opinions we request an electronic version from the chambers and then we do our quality check just like the other courts do. Titles appeal on outstanding motion. Make sure the decisions are the same at the beginning and the end. And if we see any problems we just call the writing judge have them fix them and then send them back to them and then we release them. So you do as we excuse me. No go ahead I'm sorry. Okay once everything's fine we have them back in our office we run a macro that puts a file stamp on them and then we prepare our form letters by docketing our entries and aim and the form letters which goes out to the parties the council and all that and then we prepare a judgment and once that is done we set up we run a process to put the opinions on the internet and it just sits in the holding place until 12 and noon and five o'clock and once we do all that we make all our copies to go to the district court judges to the parties to the publishing companies if it's a published opinion to the press various other people we send copies to and so you announce it twice a day correct twice a day twice a day and I'm also hearing that you really do put it on the web a lot earlier than than either Susan or Cynthia circuits you am I hearing correctly that you actually put it on before it it goes to the printer per se oh yeah before it goes to the printer and that's a preference on the part of your judges yeah the judges prefer it because they want the parties to get to be able to have access to their opinion as soon as possible great well thank you Debbie thanks for sharing that practice with with us let me ask each of you around the table now we've kind of defined the process including the role of staff noted a few of the differences between your circuits but one commonality in all cases it requires a lot of responsibility for from on the part of case managers legal staff and others to review to do editing and what have you defined for me some of the challenges that and issues that they court staff face you think and some of the skills that they need for success Susan let me turn to you first okay well some of the challenges we as we mentioned before with the visiting judges authoring and sending opinions and also I think some of the skills definitely would be the attention attention to detail just making sure that everything is perfect on that opinion before it it goes out and gets printed and put out on the website it's so much easier to have it right the first time then to have to do a correction later and and we do do some of those but I'm happy to say most of them aren't the fault of the clerk's office so good for you Cynthia I would have to agree that definitely an eye for detail is a required skill an important skill in the opinions we don't share your your problem of visiting judges because we don't have visiting judges in our circuit so that that process for that stage for us seems to be a little bit more it kind of take the very little problems that we encounter in that area let's talk about determining which opinions are published which are unpublished on how you handle them Susan that decision is actually made in chambers of the authoring judge they decide whether the opinion will be published or unpublished and let us know that on on the cover memo that comes with the opinion when they send it to the clerk's office and the face of the opinion should say published or unpublished especially if it's a percurium opinion any that's a signed opinion that doesn't say we're treating as a published opinion always so that's and if it doesn't and if it doesn't right if it doesn't say either way and it is a signed opinion then we do treat it as a published opinion however if it's a percurium and they don't have it on there we always call them and find out which it is and we'll add it for them same question Cynthia likewise with us by local rule it's whether it's published or unpublished is determined by the panel and the difference really the same thing it's is it doesn't set precedent it's it can't be cited like an opinion can and then the other difference would be distribution unpublished orders have a much smaller distribution then our published orders they also go out much quicker because we just get the email from chambers and just printed out and make copies and distribute it so it's got a very short period let's move to the collection of case closing statistics I'm gonna throw it right right back to you Cynthia and describe for me exactly what kinds of statistics are collected who's responsible for this in in your particular circuit do you make them available to the public why are they so important too many questions let me break them down well first all dispossesive despositive orders we collect statistics for which I think is pretty common with all the circuits in terms of statistic gathering I would have to say that we actually start in terms for the opinions at the time that the draft is is issued as we're reviewing for data quality we also look for things of how we're going to away the time of docketing make that entry in terms of whether it's affirmed reversed and so on and then I would say that in terms of the formal gathering our docket clerks are very essential to that part once once the order as is being entered and if we're issuing docketing an opinion or a circle rule 53 is what we call our published orders they docket them they issue the judgment in those and they also docket a JS term which I think is common among all circuits to report to the AO and that gathers our statistics monthly and in terms of also with our publishers once an opinion or circle rule 53 or an unpublished order I'm sorry issues we send a copy of our public docket sheet indicating the basic information of the case also the attorneys that argued in the cases that have been argued so then that's that's for that part Susan we've created a setup form that we use to collect statistical data when an opinion is filed so when we when we receive the opinion from the chambers our close out deputies take turns each has a day of the week to set up all opinions for the day and that person will actually go through each and every opinion look it up in aims and collect the information from the aims that they'll need for statistical closing as well as some of the information that they can gather from the opinion itself and fill out the form that would be everything from the the members of the panel who authored it the disposition the district court judge and the date of the district court judgment or opinion those are all things that we use not only in the statistical closing entry but also in a form letter that we send to the publishers if the opinion is published unlike Cynthia we don't send a docket sheet to them but we send a letter with some of this information and if the case was argued who argued the case the attorneys and where they're from that type of thing so we gather all that and then it's also helpful to have that form handy when the opinion and judgment are actually filed two days later all the information is there and and we make the JS term entry immediately after the opinion and judgment are filed the same case close out deputies entering that information as well helpful tool for your it is it is I want to toss it just for a minute back to Cynthia what about the public the public does get to see some statistics are a little different and on the web we we post our annual statistics on our website and we also have a published version of our statistics also available to the public and the same one in the 8th circuit we we don't post our statistics on our website we have them our chief deputy actually prepares a thorough statistical report monthly and and a compilation large report every year but they're not on the website when you've given me a perfect segue here we have Robin Weinberg the chief deputy of the 8th circuit Court of Appeals on the line Robin your circuit it's put a lot of emphasis on the quality control issue of the collection of these statistics explain to us what that's all about well we value the accuracy and the reliability of the court statistics and with respect to the court's disposition as been talked about we look for a lot of information the disposition of the case the authorship whether the case is published or unpublished is the judge is it a judge directed order or clerk directed order is it an opinion or an order substantive disposition or procedural with the case argued or submitted on the brief who participated in the panel a lot of information and what we've discovered is all of this information is entered into the aim system in a single entry data entry the JS termination which closes the case statistically so so the accuracy of that single entry is vital to the accuracy of the of the statistical information that we that we've maintained and and as a result we've allocated a lot of resources to making sure that that entry is accurate beginning with the deputy clerk who makes the initial entry then then we have Susan our unit supervisor reviews it all of the entries are checked daily against the court's minutes and quality control analyst in our automation unit checks it against the AOJS 34 program so there's a lot of resources attributed to making sure that that's accurate so that we hopefully the added effort and quality control will make sure that we and we that our our statistics are accurate reliable thank you thank you so much Robin we have a lot of courts out there and I'm sure that they're just dying to add to the discussion and I want to encourage them to do so by sending us a fax again that number will appear in your screen shortly any thoughts any questions that that you have relating to any of the topics that were that we're going to be discussing I invite you in fact to to send us a fax and we'll try our best to to answer it by the way in addition we also included as part of the downloadable participant guide we included a bibliography for you and I want to cite two of those works we have a case management procedures in the federal courts of appeals that was published in the year 2000 by the federal judicial center and that provides a careful description of the comparison of case management variations among the appellate courts all the way from case opening through what we're going to be talking about we're talking about today case closing and it includes pro se plra habeas cases and so forth a second publication to highlight is mediation and conference programs in the federal courts of appeals it's a source book for judges and lawyers that was published in the center for 1997 if you'd like a copy of any of these publications or in fact anything on the bibliography that was included you can make the request directly from the center's website at jnet dot fjc dot dcn let's close the session this first panel and move to our second topic petitions for rehearing but before we do we have some additional comments from our friends at the second circuit court of appeals who also appeared in the opening of this program once the case is decided we rely on technology either to email a decision to the litigants we will fax frequently a decision to the litigants and with our website we now post all our published and unpublished opinions on the website generally one hour after the decision has been filed for case closing when they're returning any documents to the originating quarter agency for example the record it needs to be returned to the proper location of course as does any closing documents such as a mandates and dispositions opinions and summary orders we have to be very precise and detail in our correspondence with them so that they'll be able to take advantage of the time constraints that they have and be able to file their motions in a timely fashion making a district court clerk's office understand that we cannot give it to you instantaneously unless the court outcourt order the second circuit court's order says that the case should be mandated for it with if it's not done correctly the case is in limbo the case is still open and I think it's very important for me to know that justice is being carried out and it's not being delayed welcome back in this segment our second panel we're going to be focusing on handling petitions for rehearing including in bank joining me in this in this discussion is Susan Dino who you've already met welcome back Susan in addition let me introduce Brenda McConnell briefing case closing manager from the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals like in our previous discussion a lot of important work is being done by court staff during this phase so it is a very busy period a lot of petitions for rehearing may maybe before you relatively few might be granted but all have to be processed and and acted upon Brenda's the new member of the panel I'm going to turn to you first what's the process for handling petitions for rehearing in the 11th Circuit and what does the clerk's office do is there any difference when it comes to handling these petitions in bank well there are some similarities in the way we process them but there are differences also one of the similarities is the clerk usually processes them the same way the clerk still has to check for timeliness to see if it's been timely received if it complies with our formatting requirements especially on the end banks because we do have a more formal format for that they have to make the docket entries in our case management system and to make sure that that they have the writing judge and the other panel members and all in proper alignment they generate a transmittal memo and make sure that they have the memo the petition and a copy of the opinion so those are the similarities in a panel that is addressed a panel petition is addressed to just the three opinion judges so there's a little difference in there and that we only require by local rule and original and three copies that goes with a cover memo which is pink we're a very color driven court so and we want the judges to really see this petition so it's on it's a great bright pink paper and on that pink paper we have the case number the case style the panel the identity of all members of the panel the date that the opinion issued and who the notifying judge is and the notify date now the notifying judge is usually the writing judge or the author of the opinion however sometimes we have visiting judges and they are not the notifying judge at that point we would designate the senior most active member of the panel to be the notifying judge and we've had some little quirks with that too we had an instance where we had two senior members of our court senior judges and a visiting judge so we had to decide who was going to be the notifying judge and we in that instance would choose the most senior of the senior judges and it's not by age because we certainly don't want to offend them in any way but it is it is by appointment who's ever been on the bench the longest they would receive the order and then oh and the notify date is the date by which the other panel members would contact the judge and give their decision of you know whether or not to grant or deny the motion of the petition with rehearing and bank it's a little bit different they're a little more formal because now you're involving all the judges and and we require them to pretty much have their ducks more in a row than in a panel petition a panel petition can come in motion form where it's just stapled up at the left hand corner but the end bank we do require more formal formatting similar to a brief it has to be bound left hand side it's only allowed the 15 pages just like a panel but it has to have a table of contents it has to have a table of citations argument authority a conclusion so and then for that we require an original and 14 copies totaling 15 all together they are required to have a copy of the opinion which is filed as an addendum to that petition so that it's not counted toward the the page count right and also for in banks they have something a little different where if it's filed by counsel they have to call what we will file what we could lovingly call and I express a belief statement and in that in their most reasoned and counseled position they have to let the court know why they think the judges opinion doesn't follow the decisions of the district court and the guideline set up by the excuse me Supreme Court so that's where that's a little bit different but they both get the pink memo they both get a copy of the opinion and then it is sent on to the court Susan same question in the 8th Circuit how are how are these handles and well as far as the the format of the of the panel and the bank petitions there really isn't much difference other than that like Brenda said we're also looking for that rule 35 b statement that that's required in in bank petitions that the decision conflicts with the decision of the Supreme Court or that involves a exceptional importance issue which I'm sure they all think it's exceptional right right but we're looking for that the format is must much less strict than safe a brief format would be they're not required to have a colored cover or binding or a table of contents and issues and that type of thing will take it on straight white paper or hand written or stapled in the corner what does different differ greatly though our 8th Circuit practice for actually processing them once we file them is is unique in that the clerk's office has been given authority to actually routinely deny those petitions unless we hear from the court that they'd like to request a poll or a response and that if you will silence is a no vote kind of policy was adopted years ago when the court decided that that would be an effective practice to to kind of streamline the over 500 petitions that we process every year so when we file them and send them to the panel or to the court in bank either one we're giving them a date certain which is is two weeks from the day that we send it to them letting them know that if we don't hear from you we're going to deny this petition and it works really well and if we do get a request for a response we will call the council that's required to file the response because we're only giving them 10 days to do that so if you know just to speed it along instead of making them wait to get the letter in the mail we will call them and let them know with 10 days from today we're expecting a response from you on that and when when that happens we won't automatically deny that petition we will wait for direction from the court you're communicating with the court the court is going to tell you we are considering this otherwise you're not if you wish to keep your job on our line we have Patricia Coleman from the third circuit Trish I understand that you've developed or your circuit has developed an electronic petition for rehearing first of all how did this come about what was involved in putting this together and then how was it processed afterward okay we need we were in I'm experiencing an increase in petitions for rehearing we also had some addition additional judges come on board so we needed to find a more efficient both economically and time wise method for transmission of the petitions for rehearing so we got together and talked with the court and talked with automation and determined that the best way to do it was to transmit these petitions electronically to the court we worked with automation to try to find which best format to use we've decided that we create them and convert them to PDF format and send them off to the court in an email and each chambers then has to download or they can print out the petition as they see fit now do the do the do the attorneys actually have have access to this electronically then or is it just is it coming from the clerks to from the clerks office to chambers it's coming both ways we allow attorneys or parties to file electronically we've set up a special email mailbox where they can send their petitions in otherwise that they can send them in hard copy and the clerks office will scan them in and convert them to PDF how is it going are you having many takers this is something new for them I'm sure it it's been a little slow for the for the electronic filing for the attorneys but for the transmission over to the court the court they greatly appreciated they get them timely we turn around we turn them around we have a quick turnaround now we expect that as CMEs ECF comes on board and more attorneys are you know become experienced with electronic filing that more attorneys will take advantage of this opportunity talk a little bit about how this is processed now and I think you have Deborah wall with you yes Bob hi Deborah how are you good I'm going to go through the process of what the case managers do as Trish stated that there's a mailbox that these petitions are received in once the petition is received the the team leader from the team checks the mailbox and notifies the case manager that there is a petition there the case manager will then transmit transfer the petition from the Lotus notes account over into our word perfect account then they will check for compliance to see whether as stated before whether it complies with all of our rules if everything is correct council also has to include what we call the EPR form which states what they've included with their email whether or not it's a petition for re hearing in bank or a panel re hearing and so forth if the petition does not comply then we send them a non-compliance letter a non-compliance email rather we do that electronically back to council letting them know that their petition is not in compliance and the things that they need to do to correct it as Trish was stating we do also receive some hard copies with those hard copies we do have them scanned and also save them in the appropriate word perfect files and then transmit this to the court we do use a cover letter letting the court know what type of petition it is as well as whether it's in bank or panel re hearing and what we're sending them whether there's motions included or not right now we receive the orders back in hard copy but soon shortly we should be receiving the orders back from chambers in electronic form as well so we'll be doing everything in electronic form that's the next step yes it is yeah well I want to thank both both Trish and Deb for Deborah for joining us for those viewers who are interested in seeing a copy of the instructions for submitting an electronic petition for re hearing we developed by the Third Circuit we included it as part of your downloadable materials in the participant guide as part of again the effective practice that was submitted from the Third Circuit so that is available for you if if you would like to look at it let's turn to another part of the topic one of our favorite topics at discussion of process I bet in the eleventh circuit you have a few requests for my prisoner process how they how are they handled are they handled any differently well we do handle them a little differently that we give them a lot of flexibility we don't hold them to the format of briefing we receive pro say materials in just about any shape and form we've received them on paper towels we one time received them going back many years when I say this on a toilet roll tissue and I think that was just his way of getting out his political statement about things it was a subtle very very subtle and so we do we do take them in handwritten form so our clerks have gotten real good at reading handwriting we do have a large Hispanic population in the southern district of Florida so sometimes we get them in a different language all together and luckily we have some folks on staff who can translate that for us but there are times when we receive those documents we're after reading it I've read it our motions clerk has read it we simply cannot figure out what it is they're trying to say so that point will send it back to them and say we've received this please clarify it for us let us know what it is that you are asking the court and we'll get something back sometimes it's a little better sometimes it's not but at that point we would go ahead and send it on the court because they are obviously trying to get something to the judges they want the judges to look at something again in doing so when you have to ask for clarification are you also providing additional time to do that or because I know the clock is very important on for especially for our pro se prisoners we will go ahead and send them a document and set them a time limit of 14 days to go ahead and get it corrected and so that sort of extends the time there and when we get it back within that 14 days then we'll go ahead and submit it to the court if the 14 days expires and we haven't received anything it's out of there what about the length of some of these I know they can be quite long and there is the rule regarding the length 15 pages there is only 15 pages allowed for both the panel and the petition for rehearing in bank if we get the petition early enough where they're within the timeframe of the before the rehearing excuse me may take time expires we will make a phone call especially if it's an attorney or if it's a non incarcerated pro se and let them know it's in excess pages we can't process it and we give them the option of either getting a motion for access pages in or to just go ahead and reformat it and into the proper amount of pages timing is still is still critical though I mean timing you can some of the other allowances are permitted but not really not sure Susan actually we have a 15 page rule as well and so we we're looking for that we're not like I said as strict about the pro se pleadings as we would be with counsel filed but we we do look at the length definitely and we will take their petition as filed the date of their certificate of service rather than the date that the clerk's office actually received it because we do know that sometimes it sits at the prison facility before it gets sent out so we'll so we'll watch for that also if it's doesn't indicate that it's been served on opposing counsel the clerk's office will will serve that and show that we have done that in the entry that's made and we'll make all the required copies if we get one we'll make the other 20 to go to the court let me say just segue back what do you do let's prisoner pro says aside if if counsel is sending you something that's more than 15 pages they they can file a motion for excess pages I think it's called or something like that except the petition in a in excess of what's been allowed by the rules does the filing of that motion slow the clock down or not really at the clock is still running at that point we're waiting for a ruling from the judge to let us know whether that we can actually file stamp it and actually lodge it onto the docket okay that's right but ours are considered timely filed as of the day we received them even though we're waiting for the the direction on whether file whether to file it over length or not we have on our line now from the second circuit second circuit has a unit that deals specifically with pros prisoner pro say request and we have Elizabeth Munoz the team leader of the prisoner unit on the line hi Elizabeth how are you good if you would just take one minute to explain how your unit handles the request from prisoners and some of the challenges you face our basic challenges that unlike most the talents who have readily available access to the court by either walking in or telephoning their case managers to review their file obviously our appellants are confined and their their restrictions are usually either to short telephone calls or written correspondence which at times it's not quite legible due to these constraints they are we are flexible with them as far as them complying with the frappe rules by the numbers of copies that they must file with regards to motions briefs etc. also service upon opposing council is also offered to them in case that they haven't served the appropriate party or haven't served anyone at all also we also give them samples of briefs appendices and also provide a copy of the frappe rules for them upon so that makes it a little bit easier because at least they get to see examples of what of what it should look like but I I'm assuming that the circuit is also fairly liberal in terms of what it accepts from our motions come in various forms far as letters and sometimes they do come in formal forms when they're instructed to do so by the clerk and the clerk case manager rather provides them with the motion forms directly and detailed instruction on how to fill them out and what to attach to them if they need to attach any supporting documents thank you very much Elizabeth Elizabeth was part of the team that we went to visit in the second circuit when we began talking about doing a an appellate case closing broadcast okay the petitions are received we all know they all come in all the time in a timely fashion right and they're all complete always right laughing what happens next we discussed a little bit about how they're processed how is the poll taken is it I'd like to hear about that well in our court when a judge requests the poll they do notify the clerk and at that point we put a what we call a hold on the mandate we don't issue the mandate until we either get a denial of re-hearing back or whatever kind of ruling from the court about the petition or that the judge actually lets us go ahead and release the mandate we have had an instance where we've gotten the petition for re-hearing order back but the judge hasn't released the case yet so we will make a rather diplomatic phone call asking the judge okay we've got the denial of re-hearing would you like us to continue to hold the case the answer is sometimes yes the answer is sometimes no but that judge who requests the poll also lets the opinion panel know that this is what they would like to do and that gives the panel the opportunity to review the opinion again and decide whether or not they're going to stand on the opinion or agree that a poll should go forward sometimes during this process we'll get a memo or an email from the judges saying we've identified another issue that we'd like them to address so we'll get a request from the court to have a letter brief file or supplemental brief file and it comes in letter form just stapled up at the left-hand side and in it they'll identify the issue that they want the parties to address and the judge will set the briefing time for that when it's due how much time for response in any reply and it also will set this page limit and then once that is in the process the chief judge sends out a ballot to the court and in the ballot they're asked to say whether or not they want to request for the poll and whether or not they want it to be orally argued and the judges the timeline they've set for themselves is 21 days to get back to the chief about how you know what their ruling is whether they wanted the poll or not and if they deadline expires then the chief makes a diplomatic call to the to the judge and ask for their vote at that point and sometimes it's a deciding vote you know it'll be the one that sways whether or not there is a poll taken or whether or not they're going to grant the end bank and after that once we get the order back if there has been a poll taken it's been granted if the order will come back granted with a whole new opinion then our opinion section handles the distribution and the issuing of that if it comes back with it's granted and we want oral argument our calendaring section takes care of that so what's left to us at the briefing case closing is just the straight denials and we get lots of those.  Susan same question. Well like I said before we actually are dictating to the court when their poll deadline is when we send the petition to them we'll let them know you know that it will be denied unless we receive that request for a poll and the votes go directly to our chief judge and so we rarely see those occasionally somebody will copy us in on it but they do just go directly to the chief judge and and if they are considering it and a poll is taken in responses requested then we're going to make note of that and and hold up on denying it of course and wait for them but otherwise we're kind of out of the loop on that we're just waiting waiting for the decision absolutely right okay we're pleased to have a stellar russia on the line a stellar is a quality control analyst from the ninth circuit a stellar your you and your circuit submitted an effective practice relating to quality control on requests for rehearing and if you would take a minute or so to describe what the challenge was and how yours what your circuit has done to meet that challenge right hi Bob yes our car have developed a new way of tracking down petitions for rehearing and rehearing in banks in our court due to the large amount of petitions that we filing our court and the way that we handle that was by running a report monthly report and this report reflects any petitions filed with the court that are outstanding pending before judges the way that we develop this kind of report was the reason because we used to show status that actually was inaccurate and we started developing a good way of handling these petitions for rehearing by training docket clerks since it's the more essential entry in the docket once that docket entry is done correctly it kind of reflect I'm sorry and reflects everything on the report they get the petition for rehearing they check for whether it's timely whether the format is correct then they go they go ahead and file it and circulate it to the court if it's for name bank rehearing and if it's for panel rehearing they will send it to the panel members at that point once these petition is filed then they will have sometimes a response to it that entry also needs to be linked with the petition for rehearing so that that way when the order comes down disposing of the petition for rehearing all documents related to the petition for rehearing would be terminated at that point how did you arrive at the standards Stella how did you arrive at come to agreement as to what those standards would be did you have to get approval of the clerk and meet with others etc yes actually we had to get approval from the clerk of the court as well to the chief deputy we kind of went and developed these standards docketing and procedures for everybody to follow up and once they approve it we circulated by a memo to all docketers advising the way to be handling orders disposing of petition for rehearing and how they need to be linked with all documents related to it thank you thank you very much for joining us you're welcome we also have lucille car the operations manager in the second circuit joining us today lucille your court I think does something quite unique and if you would please describe the hold confirmation memorandum that that you've developed we had a challenge of keeping up with what judge put a particular hold on a mandate or petition for a hearing or involved petition and it is says nothing in black and white that a person could refer back to and you weren't sure whether the original panel was aware that a particular judge put a hold on a petition for a hearing or a mandate and it was out of necessity that we needed to create something where the case manager they could actually make a docket entry into the system a form would spit out that we could send to the chief judge so he knows that this particular case is on hold the three-judge panel would get a copy of that form as well so they'll know that this particular matters on hold and we don't ask the reason is on hold we don't concern ourselves with that but we do need to be sure that it's on hold so we don't mistakenly issue a mandate or deny a petition without the judge's approval so the form actually works for as a wonderful communication tool for us and it keeps everybody informed on what cases are on hold. Everybody's talking from the same page and the clock may or may not run if you if you don't understand or if you you have a different thought and the clock is running then you're really in a mess so it is a very very excellent communication mechanism thank you for for talking about it as we're ready to turn to our our next panel and that is dealing with mandate issuances and records management but as we do that let's hear some final comments from the folks from the second circuit. The challenges I would say would be some of the orders are vague and unclear they don't pinpoint exactly if the case should be dismissed with or without prejudice. The defaults that we have the attorneys felt to comply with the federal rules of appellate procedures and that's one of the obstacles that we face with closing and the briefing schedule they felt to comply with the briefing schedule. There are very strict timing requirements that the federal rules of appellate procedure you know impose on staff members so they have to be very careful about the timing of particular motions that come following a decision because once the decision is rendered by our court doesn't mean that the case is over there are a series of proceed procedures that can occur post decision and those are very strictly timed by federal rules. If in fact any information is not correct and we were to forward the record or even more importantly the mandate to the wrong court there's certainly a delay in in the process and injustice because first we have to have the document returned to us we have to locate the proper district and division forwarded to the district court and I'm certain that it would create an adverse reaction to the litigants to the parties involved. One of the primary challenges is doing the mandate on time usually for us we handle a lot of agency cases it's 52 days from the day of the decision and we basically have some internal reports that we rely on to make sure that we're on time and we also have a tickler system so keeping track of that probably is the primary challenge. Making sure the case moves through the system as quickly as possible it's a very good reputation to have. Moving through the system as quickly as possible that's a very good reputation to have the right to do those are good words welcome back to our third panel and we're going to focus on the issuance of the mandate and then finally the management of the records getting all those records back the records that we utilize during the case closing phase. I've brought all the members of our panel back and I'll introduce you to them again we have Susan Dino, Brenda McConnell and Cynthia Motley. Let's jump right into our discussion here's the point where everything comes together all the great staff work done all the work that's been done in chambers now why is the mandate so important and how is this accomplished I'll toss it to you Cynthia. Well I think in terms of importance it's it's the last stage of the appellate process and it's the transfer of jurisdiction back to the lower court and I think that's what makes mandate so important in terms of how it's accomplished in our court it's somewhat of a procedural process and after the petitions for hearing issues are resolved or any stays are resolved we have a tickler that indicates the deadline of when a mandate should issue and we monitor that tickler and we basically at that time issue a certified copy for if we have a judgment or opinion of the opinion and we also make a docket entry that generates a form a mandate form saying you know that this is the official mandate for the case and distribute it back to the issue distribution to the lower court and counsel. Brenda. It's similar in our court returning the jurisdiction back to the district court or to the agency that the case originated from. We also use a form that issues the mandate in that it's a cover letter that goes with the mandate our clerks are able to generate a weekly report in which they can list out all the cases that are due to mandate that week and it gives them the opportunity to check the case to see if there's any outstanding petitions for hearing stays of mandate whatever kind of motion that they've they've got that that to stop the case from issuing and then we have a record rooms personnel James is his name who issues our mandate he is located in the record room because it's easier we figured to have him just pull the record close to where he resides instead of having to have that record switched back and forth between the the case closing in the record room James runs a daily report and he double checks he's a real good check and balance for us to make sure and there have been occasions where he's come and said I'm not sure whether or not I should issue this opinion and it was a great catch thank you James and he does a great job for that but based on those reports then we would do a cover memo that says that here's a copy certified copy of the opinion certified copy of the judgment and that it is issued as the mandate we also at that time will return the record back to the district court or the agency and we'll also have any bills of cost would issue at that time with the mandate so it really does give you a final opportunity to do quality control before that that mandate is finally issued one last check right right we also work from a report a mandate list that is printed every week and that will give us every case that is to be mandated that week or at least the deadline is set for that week so we will work from that list and check the cases and aims to make sure that they really are ready and that there's no pending rehearing petition we were from that list as well to automatically deny those petitions like I mentioned earlier so if it is ready to mandate we will do that and basically the issuance of the mandate confuses a lot of people because the entry on that is made in aim shows mandate issued and we get calls from even counsel and and pro se people you know I want a copy of that and what they don't realize is is really they already have a copy it is just a certified copy of that original opinion and judgment or judgment itself that goes back to the district court the lower court and that again returns jurisdiction to them and especially if the case has been reversed or remanded then that cues them it's time for them to do what they need to do and we will will copy when at the same time that we send the certified copy of the opinion to the district court we just send a letter to counsel telling them that it has been done so they know we've actually talked quite a lot about tickler systems and the importance of communication tickler system related to timing and so forth and so on and it is a very super sensitive of issues since the issuance of the mandate does officially officially start the clock running for the lower court especially if it's been been remanded right it's our way of letting the judges know that in in the event that we've reversed and remain it back to the district court that they can go ahead and take whatever action our court directed on in our opinion and in our court we do give them copies of any denials of the petitions for rehearing as a heads up eight days from now the case will come back to you and and we do that sort of to stave off any phone calls that we might receive it because the judges are anxious if they've been told to do something by the court they want to get right at it and you know petitions for rehearing is just a nuisance to them because it delays that whole process they want to get going so we give them a copy of that to let them know a days from now you will be able to start that schedule you know for whatever responses you want to get or go ahead and set the hearing again we mentioned that timeline that timeliness is such a key we have Jennifer flowers who is a docking supervisor from the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals on the line with us Jennifer take just a minute to describe the tickler system that staff utilizes to monitor mandates in your circuit hello we have developed a manual tickler file system for staff to daily monitor mandates to be issued here in our court the tickler files contain mandates and copies of orders that said deadlines for someone to do something to ensure proper case management of the cases when a disposition is filed there's a tickler date generated by aim disposition documents are placed in the mandate drawer for the appropriate date of issuance and these tickler files are located on each staff desk and is a backup to the computer tracking system staff are to check the files on a daily basis and we found that it works really well because the mandates are issued timely and our case closeout reports are actually minimized and accurate Jennifer where are these where is the tickler located I know in some circuits there is a central location where folks go to access files that that will give the appropriate dates where is it located in terms of the the deputy clerk the tickler files again are located on each staff member's desk that is responsible for handling a case number and indeed in the event one of the staff members are out the tickler file is located in an area that can be visibly seen and accessed thank you so much I want to turn now to another person who has submitted to us an effective practice that folks should have if they've downloaded their materials and that's Mary Ann McMain deputy clerk with the DC circuit explain to us Mary Ann the the practice that your circuit is instituted relating to transfer of cases sure can okay we transfer cases much like but they're different from this position of cases where they go to a district court occasionally on order or by direction of the multi district litigation panel things have to move to different circuits in the for the appeals court and also for the district court so what we wanted to do was to make sure we could get all of the files and all of the materials to the recipient court as quickly as we could and also receive acknowledgement of it that meant dealing with motions quickly any when we get an order from the MDL panel we case administrators can go ahead and deal with issuing a standard order transferring the court then once all pending procedural motions are taking care of we run a copy of the docket of the case and send all of the materials to the recipient case by certified meals so we get an acknowledgement back that the materials have been received and that seems to make everybody happy well that's important and again for viewers who are interested in knowing more about that that's part of I believe your downloadable materials that that effective practice that Mary Ann described thank you so much for joining us Mary Ann okay we now have all of these records right some paper some not there are exhibits how do you get them back to the proper folks do you have any local rules covering that or whatever we're gonna turn to you Brenda well we don't really we do have a few local rules about the size of exhibits but the records ours is in a unique court well one of three unique courts that actually get the record on appeal in every single case and we keep track of that in our record room it's a rather large area we've over spilled into the basement and other off-site places because of how many that we receive but we have some great record room folks who keep real good track of where those cases are for us when we receive that we don't even receive the record from the district court until after briefing is complete so while briefing is going on the attorneys have access to it because the attorneys are usually in the city where the record is being kept but once briefing is complete it comes up to here and then it becomes our responsibility to keep up with it and we do send the record out to the judges it does get passed around as the opinion gets passed around to the different judges we've had a few problems with that and when it comes time to issuing the mandate that the VJs VJs sometimes think that that record belongs to them it's just a copy of the original and we had one incident years ago where the mandate clerk issued the mandate because we don't stop the mandate because we don't have the record we will go ahead and issue that that's that's rule-driven and so the mandate clerk called the judge and asked okay could you please return the record to us and they went oh we threw it in the trash we thought it was our copy so then it became my duty to reconstruct the record because we had reversed and remanded that case the district court judge really needed it so that was so now what we do on our labels it says property of the 11th circuit and that's our way of politely letting the judges know get that back to us there's an effective practice folks so and then the record sometimes can be very small it can be very large and our court if it's more than 15 volumes it doesn't get submitted to the court they go under our record excerpts and if they want the record at that time you know we will send it to them but we can we've had records as small as one by and we've had another case that we're handling right now that is over 30 boxes long and that doesn't even include the exhibits and then we've had our share of interesting exhibits too we've many many years ago we had a car bumper come to us as an exhibit to a case so for that and as a result we also had a large box of Klondike bars which we all got real excited about until we opened them up and realized they were just the wrapper around Styrofoam I guess we should have known better melted but because of that we have a local rule that says if it's an oversized exhibit like a great big blow-up picture or chart that it is counsel's responsibility to send it to us and also at the end of the case it is counsel's responsibility to have it returned and James will call the attorney and say it's ready to go back you need to make arrangements to come and get this we'll either get their FedEx number or they'll tell us we don't want it back thank you we got the originals here at home so it sounds like your exhibit room is alternately packed and then emptied packed and empty we did we tried it we tried to buy a trish and get those things moved out of there Cynthia what about in your in your court well we don't get the record in every in every case so we're somewhat different and in that regard what we get is what we call a short record and that's what we use to open the case and then if the case is going to oral argument or required by the court or by the attorneys in some cases we'll we'll get the record and but we don't that's pretty much in terms of we don't have your problem in terms of the volume of we do get in cases I mean we do get large cases where we will get the 20 boxes but we try to hold off we try to for the district courts to keep the record as much as possible because we have in our circuit in Wisconsin and Illinois Indiana rather just make that more more accessible to attorneys to prepare their brief and so later on that's when we'll request the record if we require it Susan any bumper stories no bumper stories we we do not get the original file or the original record in every case either we'll get a clerk's record that's just a concise unless it's a pro se case and and then we'll get that original record but because our offices is divided into departments and this task specific my closeout department doesn't handle the records but we two have a James and he handles those for us so he'll work from a report of cases that we've mandated and as soon as we've done that then that's his cue to gather the records and get those back and we do have a local rule that requires all trial exhibits too so we get a fair amount of trial exhibits but but since I don't work in the records department there may be a bumper story that I missed I don't know but it accentuates that you have all this correct data right up front in order to know where it goes back and so forth and so on the lower court and and whoever before we end I want to talk a little bit about I have you talk a little bit about staying the mandate do you ever run into that situation and how is that how is that handle well we get several motions for stay of the mandate mostly the reason for wanting to stay the mandate so that they can go to the Supreme Court because they feel they have a shot at getting the either us reversed or the district court reversed so what they want to do is not have our opinion and judgment become the mandate or to relinquish jurisdiction until after the Supreme Court has had their saying it too and those are due to be filed before the expiration of the mandate time if the motion is received on time we go ahead and send it to the to the writing judge of the of the opinion unless of course it's a vj again but if that motion is not received in time that mandate issues and it's out of there and it's one less case we have to deal with and for recalls we also get motions for recall of the mandate but we have a local rule on that that if it's not received or if it's received more than a year after we have issued the mandate that we do return it back to the council or the process that files that with a polite little note that's as we've received it it wasn't timely received thank you sometimes they get a lot out of it about it they'll send it back and say no no no you get that to a judge because I want to judge to see this mr. clerk I don't want to hear what you have to say so we do give it to a judge and the judge tells them no thank you is it similar in your circuits pretty much yeah we do we do get motions to stay the mandate and we will send those to the court and if we receive them after the mandates been issued especially if it's just a day or two after we'll just treat it as a motion to recall the mandate and send it off I wish we had a local rule you're trying with a local rule after a year after the year so they can come in much later in fact much later yeah we have a few mostly prisoners that you know send us their motion to recall once a year but you do have to be careful with those motions because sometimes it can be a new case basically and they're just trying to reopen their own one instead of paying a fee to to open a new one so we take a good look at those and make sure that we don't need to direct them to file a new case I'd like to go around the table one one last time before we close and I what I want to do is take the opportunity since this is the our third session on the administration of appellate cases and then I'd like the three of you to identify what you feel are some key skills that appellate case managers really need to have to to perform their varied responsibilities most most effectively and I'm not talking just case closing but how you feel about the the skills they need to have in all the aspects of their job all the way from case case opening and what would you highlight I would say definitely and I for detail what we do is very you know detail-oriented us particularly at the stage of case closing and I would say time efficiency we deal a lot with deadlines and so we require the attorneys to be timely with their filings and likewise we also need to be on top of it and making sure that we issue things timely and efficiently yeah absolutely and I for detail and just knowing how to prioritize since we do work with with the opinion work and this this great deadline demands there and timeliness then you need to know how to prioritize the rest of your work that's got to be done as well so friend I'm going to give you last brief word on this actually I agree with both the ladies attention to detail the timeliness it's very important because we do have specific deadlines that we need to meet when we're looking to hire a new case closing clerk one of the things that we do look for is someone who can pay attention to the detail who is has a skill in organizing because that is a skill and it's an effective skill one that is very necessary to what we do because if you can't organize your work in a way that helps you to efficiently process that work then the work doesn't go to the court on time and that does not make the judges very happy so if they're able to prioritize by date or or set up little sections that so that someone who comes in while they're on leave or something can just sit in and start doing their work that's important to that's something that we look for also one other skill I think that is necessary is is a degree of customer service skills we deal a lot with the public whether that be pro se prisoners and non incarcerated pro se the attorneys and and God love them we all know that sometimes dealing with attorneys is not the easiest thing to do they always have a reason and excuse and we have to sit there and listen to that and guide them through because it is our job to help them we are the liaison we are the first person that they come into contact with we represent the court so customer service skills I think is important also that's our external customer we have internal customers our judges we need to have the diplomacy and the degree of tact to deal with our judges they all have different personalities and God bless them they you know sometimes I love them too that's right Susan and in our internal our own clerks that we work with ourselves in the different departments we need to be able to work with each other to get that work through because it is our job to shepherd it through I think that's a great way to segue to the to the end of this broadcast it's it's a vital job it's an important job it's not an easy job regardless of the phase of appellate case case administration but today we've had an opportunity in this broadcast to look at appellate case closing not only from the perspective of how it's implemented in the circuits but also what challenges that the challenges that court staff face and the practices they use to meet the challenges we hope you found this broadcast not only interesting but directly related to what you do on the job and again I want to thank the panel that very graciously generously took of of their time gave of their time Susan Dino Brenda McConnell and Cynthia Motley also I just a note I want to thank our planning committee and those names you're going to find in your downloadable materials we had a number of folks in this broadcast and in all our broadcast share some of their effective practices and that really is such an important part of the learning process finally the folks from the second circuit where the roll-in so we're filmed I want to thank them and also Roseanne McKechnie the clerk for allowing us to come and giving us her time and Fernando Galindo the chief deputy who really took care of a lot of the logistics I'd like to leave you with a quote from Justice Souter because I think it says it all whatever court we are in whatever we are doing at the end of our task some human being is going to be affected some human life is going to be changed in some way by what we do we had better use every power of our minds and our hearts and our beings to get these rulings right thank you for joining us today and we'll see you in our next FJTN broadcast


Hello and welcome to Town Meeting TV's ongoing coverage of Town Meeting Day 2024, which will be Tuesday, March 5th this year, or actually next year, 2024. Town Meeting TV hosts forums with all candidates and covers every question you will see on your ballot this year, introducing you to community decision makers, and connecting you with issues that shape your local community. You can find all of our forums at ch17.tv or on our Town Meeting TV YouTube channel. This forum is also in advance of the Burlington Democrats Town Meeting Day Nominating Caucus, which will be on Sunday, December 10th. Voting for that caucus will be held virtually, with limited in-person voting for those who need it. You can register online to vote in that caucus at btvdems.org. Tonight's program we will hear from one of the candidates running for the Democratic nomination for the Ward 7 City Council seat, and that is candidate Lee Morrigan. Thank you so much for joining us, Lee. Thanks for having me, Bobby, and thanks to Town Meeting TV. Totally. So there is one other candidate seeking the Democratic nomination for the Ward 7 seat. That is Evan Litwin, and Evan was not able to join us for this forum tonight, but we have a prepared list of questions for you, Lee, and we also have the phone lines open at<PHONE_NUMBER>, and if you call in with your question for Lee, we will prioritize your question and get your call on the air. So with that, maybe let's jump in. You ready? Sounds great. Okay, so your opening statement, please tell us why you should be nominated to represent the Democratic Party for the upcoming Ward 7 City Council election. Great. Well, again, thank you so much, Bobby, and thanks again to Town Meeting TV for having me. My name is Lee Morrigan, and I'm running to be your next city counselor from Ward 7 to build a Burlington where everyone feels safe, secure, and supported.  Seeing every day how hard my mom had to work to provide for us. From a young age, it was obvious to me that if I wanted to see real change in my community, I would have to step up and be that change. I've been doing that in Burlington, helping manage millions of dollars in public funds as the vice chair of the Parks Commission, and innovating to ensure our parks are places for all of us. I'm proud to say that I was appointed to the position with support from Democrats, independents, and progressives. And since that appointment, I have worked with the council to bring common sense reforms that build bridges rather than cut us up along party lines. We need someone who can hit the ground running on day one to get to work and bring much needed experience to the council. I am the only person who cared to show up today because I care about you and serving my community. I look forward to your questions. Great. Thank you, Lee. So our first question tonight is about public safety. And before I jump into that, I will just remind folks that you can call in<PHONE_NUMBER> with your question. Let's start with this question here. So arguably the most talked about issue right now is whether the streets of Burlington are safe. So how do you think the city council should address these public safety concerns? Absolutely. When I'm out talking to my neighbors, the top concern for people is public safety. And I'm happy to talk about that. Public safety is a passion of mine. It's something I've been working on on the Parks and Rec Commission. I'm very focused on that. And I've been collaborating with city employees and first responders on finding solutions that work for everybody. So an issue that is not controversial is the current police cap. So a tripartisan effort agreed on a cap of 87. Now we are currently at least 19 officers below that cap as of the data available at the October police commission chief's report. And so I'm concerned with how do we get to that cap? And I think we do it through incentives. People talk a lot about community policing. It's a buzzword right now. I think to have true community policing, our police have to feel connected to their communities. It's hard to do that when they can't afford to live here. So I'm thinking let's do some incentives, let's do a housing stipend so our officers can live in the city that they serve. That being said, I'm focused on harm reduction. We cannot police ourselves out of a lot of these crises and we need a collaborative holistic approach. I want to prioritize harm reduction and we really need a blend. And what we need is somebody with lived experience. In recovery, I'm formerly unhoused. We need a problem solver who has realistic goals, not thinking about what we may be able to accomplish two to three years down the road. Let's talk about what we can do right now. Thanks, Lee. So our next question here is about partisan politics. So what is your experience with the current state of political division across ideological and party lines specifically in Burlington? What have you done to build consensus and learn from disagreements? Thanks, Bobby, for that question. Great question. So to answer that, I got to backtrack a little bit. In 2011, I sustained a workplace injury and I needed surgery for. Now anyone who has had to deal with workers comp can tell you there's a lot of difficulties there and because of a workers comp disputing my claim I had to wait almost a year to have the surgery I desperately needed and that experience made me an advocate once I was healed and ready for healthcare access and in fact that's what drew me to the progressive party, the progressives prioritize healthcare as a human right that everybody deserves and I agree with that. So my roots are in the progressive party. This is true, but we're dealing with a lot of issues in Burlington that transcend party politics. Chief among them is public safety. Public safety can work for anyone regardless of what party you fall into and I feel that my neighbors, more than being concerned about political parties is they want someone who is rooted in the community and who has the relationships. I've been appointed to the Parks Commission twice by a tripartisan effort on a Democratic-led council. I have great relationships on both sides of the council and I have been getting things done with the council so I'm ready to step up and do that as a counselor for my community. Great. Our next question is about housing. How should the city of Burlington address the need for safe and affordable housing for the people who work, live, study and visit the city of Burlington? You know, it's a double-edged sword living in such a desirable community. We saw an influx of people during COVID because we live in a beautiful area and we had very low COVID rates, I think due in large part to our response. We had a great COVID response. But we have a broken housing system. We have expensive rents and we have a very low vacancy rate. For me, I think a key part is looking at zoning changes. I believe in high density housing so we can bring down those rents. I think a key part of our housing issue is we need to look at the role that landlords and UVM has played in that. Now, I believe wholeheartedly, they need to be invited to the table to be partners. But when they fall short of their duty to take care of this community that they are in, then they need to be held responsible and accountable by the city council. We also have an unprecedented on-house crisis and we do not have enough sheltering options for our people and that's not right. As a formerly on-house person, I will tell you that anybody in the city that tonight wants to be sleeping under a roof should be able to do that. That's a very simple thing and we cannot meet that need. We need to expand our sheltering options. And to do that, we do need help from the state. The state needs to play a part. But we can lead from Burlington, building a stronger relationship with all of our legislators, building a stronger relationship with other mayors and really approaching this from a collaborative angle. This is personal for me. I see myself in these folks when I'm out and about downtown and I was there once. But I remain optimistic that just as I was able to go forward through that, I believe our neighbors can too and we can all come together and be part of that solution. Our next question is about addiction and the opioid crisis. What is the city doing right now and what are the biggest changes you see that need to happen to help both the people suffering from addiction and those around them impacted by the effects? And as a follow-on to that, do you support safe injection sites? You know, Bobby, the sad truth is we are losing too many people. There are so many families that this year at the holiday time, they're going to look around their dinner table and there's going to be an empty spot. And that's not okay. We are in a crisis and I believe that overdose prevention centers have a role in getting us out of that crisis. These centers have been in operation for years in the U.S. and around the world. I particularly impartial to the model used in New York City through on-point NYC. And the work that they did beforehand, I feel, is vitally important and incredibly admirable. Before they even went into effect, they were engaging community partners. They were engaging local businesses, neighbors, politicians, having meetings at schools and making sure everybody knew the reality of what an overdose prevention site is and what it isn't. And they leaned into that and dispelled the misrepresentations and misinformation with that. And the results are clear. They are serving a lot of people. They are keeping millions of syringes off the street and they are doing great work. And I think the key thing about overdose prevention centers is when people access those services, they are every time having the ability to connect with resources to get into recovery. A sad thing we see and we got this data from UVM is that a very small percentage of people who die from overdoses have actually entered any form of recovery and we need to change that. Next we are going to talk about racial justice. So where do you see systemic racism showing up in Burlington and what can the city council do about it? So Bobby, the truth is that systemic racism touches all of our systems because our systems were not made for everybody. We see this and the harm that systemic racism can lead to. And what happened, this tragic event, the tragic shooting a few weeks ago, where three young men who were, who the only thing that they were doing was speaking Arabic and wearing kafias and they were shot for who they were. That is not who Burlington is. That is not what we are. We don't want to be that. We all have a responsibility in combating that. We need to stand together and send a message as a city government about what we want and what our values are and to do that we need to really enable REIB to continue and expand the excellent work they are doing. They are a part of the community every day. I have great respect for director Kim Carson and what she's doing. I think she has been doing incredible things in the relationship building she has been doing with all department heads is second to none. And we also need to do outreach. You know, part of growing up in Vermont and New England, we have a certain mindset. You only know what you know and I think education is a huge part in getting all folks to understand the systems we have, how they came to be and why we need to make some changes. Next we will talk about development and change. I just want to pause and say thank you. I know you are the only one answering these questions. I hope your voice isn't getting tired. Thank you so much. I am known for not being quiet. This is a great opportunity. Our next question is about development and change in Burlington. We have the Memorial Auditorium, the PIN, the Catholic Diocese, the Vermont Department of Health Office, Perkins Pier, King Street, on and on, Burlington is undergoing a lot of change and growing pains. So what is the first location that you would hope to address as a city counselor for development and change and how would you leverage public and private partnerships to get this done? Lots of change and growing pains indeed. First and foremost with development my priority is quality, affordable housing. I think that that needs to be the forefront of any conversation we have about development. Now when we talk about development in all of these spaces I'm really interested in making sure we are keeping spaces public and used for everyone. So as we develop we need to ask ourselves are these spaces for everyone? Are they affordable for everyone? Or is this only going to be a space for a very select few? And we need to look at when we're engaging in those decisions what do we want to see for ourselves as a city? So I think it is very important. Another thing we cannot lose sight of as we engage in public and private development which I do think is part of the answer is that we are not leaving our small businesses behind.  So we need to make sure that we are empowering small business owners with everything they need and that is assistance with zoning and permitting and also the safety of their workers downtown. And you know for me I look at my part so part of my part what I'm doing as a candidate is I don't accept donations from corporations, developers or landlords. It's really important for me to walk the walk and I think we really just need a government that works for people and not special interests and I'm here to do that in whatever way I can. Great. So we'll now switch to talking about climate change in Burlington. So the city's net zero energy by 2030 goal is defined as reducing and eventually eliminating fossil fuel use from the heating and ground transportation sectors in Burlington. So this NZE goal is ambitious for both its rapidity and comprehensiveness and it will require holistic transformation in the city. So what does the city council need to do to meet this goal and do you support the continued operation of the McNeil power plant? You know we are facing a true global crisis and like you said these are ambitious goals. You know it's funny when I think of climate change sometimes my mind goes back to when I was a kid reading in the school books about climate change and they would show pictures of glaciers and what they were you know back then 10 years past and what they're going and I look at that and I think it's just undeniable. Like and I think what I'm proud of with Vermont I don't hear many people debating that we're in a climate crisis so that we have that going for us. I think a vital part of that as the city recognizes we need to transition away from fossil fuels. I think we also need to transition away from burning biomass. I know McNeil was very controversial and there are reasons for that. I know that there's the immediate concerns with that but it is my duty as someone who cares about Burlington we have to look at the long term, we have to look at the bigger picture and I do not feel that burning biomass is a viable part of our future plan for Burlington. I think another way we look at our climate crisis is we look at free public transit. Most experts would agree that the first stop for reducing emissions in a city is to broaden your public transit. I think we have a good foundation on public transit. I think we can go further keeping it free is a big part of how we do that. I'm interested in climate resilience. I'm interested in how we can look at accepting climate refugees that we're going to be seeing limiting our emissions and taking a broad collaborative approach with the full council and administration to do that. Awesome. So we only have maybe a couple of questions left. So this question, this next question will be about gun control. So high profile, as you know, high profile and devastating shootings have had a huge impact on our community over the last couple of years. So what will you do as a city councilor to advocate for changes that could curb gun violence? Yes, excellent question. I know gun control is important to many people. So I grew up in Unity, New Hampshire, big hunting community. In fact, I had an excellent neighbor who loved to hunt, but his wife wouldn't allow him to have venison in the house. So I benefited greatly from that. Thanks, Bob. You know, so I respect hunting. I respect activities like target shooting. These are important traditions, especially in Vermont. But guns do not make us more safe in Burlington and especially downtown. I believe that wholeheartedly. We don't need them downtown. Now, this is a key difference between me and my opponent. My opponent has said that if people are worried about going downtown, that part of that answer is civilians arming themselves. I reject that wholeheartedly. I believe that guns need to be locked away in safe storage until the time they are used for a safe activity like hunting or target shooting. I don't think the place for guns are on your hip when you go to your favorite restaurant downtown or you're walking through City Hall Park. This does not make us safer. It does not make the police safe. It does not make the people around us safe. And it does not make us more safe. Thank you, Lee. Just one more question here. So this March, non-citizen voting will be in practice for local elections. So this is one of the first elections where we'll have all resident or non-citizen voting. So what are some ways that you will work to empower non-citizen residents to vote in this election? I am thrilled about this development, Bobby. This was something I advocated heavily for. I voted for it, so I'm thrilled. Now, it's important to keep in mind that Republicans did try to strip this. The Republicans have fought it in court. It has passed that challenge, so non-citizen voting is here to stay, and I'm very happy for that. So this means we need to increase our engagement. It's not just about translated materials at the ballot box. It's not making sure that every aspect of our local government is open and accessible to everybody who wishes to participate. This means NPA meetings, this means City Council meetings, or any other meeting. Anybody should be able to access in the language of their origin. Thanks, Lee. I think that pretty much wraps it up. We'll have time for your final closing statement for your candidacy for the Democratic nomination for Ward 7 City Council seat. Excellent. Bobby, I want to thank you so much. This has been a pleasure. So, folks, we can do this. We can build a better Burlington. I know we can go forward together, building bridges between neighbors and standing up for what's right. But we need someone with the know-how, the experience, and the relationships to get the job done. I'm ready on day one to be the kind of counselor that Ward 7 and our city deserves. The biggest difference between myself and my opponent is on display here tonight. I show up. I will answer your questions, and I will level with you. Tonight, I'm asking for your vote in the Democratic Caucus this Sunday, December 10th. If you still need to register, please head to the Burlington Democrats website or leafofburlington.com. Thank you. Thank you, Lee, and thank you for tuning in to Town Meeting TV's coverage of Town Meeting Day 2024. You can find this and many more forums online at ch17.tv. And don't forget that you can vote in the Sunday, December 10th Democratic Caucus at the Burlington Democrats' Town Meeting Day Nominating Caucus Sunday, December 10th. Voting will be held virtually with limited in-person voting for those who need it, and you can register online at btvdems.org. Thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you so much.


The report is that it was a shorted-out ballast to one of our lights. They removed the ballast and disconnected the power to it. I was really proud of our students and personnel in the building. They evacuated calmly and quickly. We followed our fire drill policy to the letter and everybody executed it very well.


What does it mean and they're like asking all these questions? What do you think but he said that you know, it's just like Just stop it.  You're hurting yourself.