All right, our next speaker is JJ Gal. There's been a lot of talk today about the immune checkpoint inhibitors and their promise for the treatment of kidney cancer. So JJ is gonna give us sort of a summary of where we stand with regards to immunotherapy for metastatic kidney cancer. Thanks, Chris. Good morning, everybody. So I'm gonna give you a brief review of the history of immunotherapy. But more importantly, I would like to share with you some new data on the immune checkpoint therapy, which is pretty exciting as Dr. Tuneer just talked about. So why are we interested in immunotherapy? So the short answer is immunotherapy can kill tumor cells. However, immunotherapy kill tumor cells in a very different way, comparing to the traditional chemotherapy and then the new target agents Dr. Tuneer just talked about. First, immunotherapy is adaptable. So when it activates the immune system, if tumor cells change and the immune system can also change. Second, it's specific. So it targets specifically tumor cells and spare the healthy host cells from toxicity. Third, it has memory. It actually has great memory. So when tumor cells hibernate for like five, 10 years, after they wake up, the immune system can still recognize them and kill them. So theoretically, they can offer long-term survival. Through history, scientists and the clinicians have tried to develop different types of immunotherapies. This includes cytokine, vaccine, adopted T-cell transfer, adopted T-cell transfer and the immune checkpoint therapy. So I'm going to only focus on cytokine therapy and the immune checkpoint blockhead therapy today as the data on these two types of therapies are more mature. So as Dr. Tuneer just mentioned, the first breakthrough for the treatment of renal cell chastinoma was high dose IO2, which was developed in the 1980s. So eventually in 1982, high dose IO2 was approved by the FDA for the treatment of renal cell chastinoma. So high dose IO2 basically cure tumor cells by stimulating the CD8 T-cells, which is known as cytotoxic T lymphocytes and natural killer cells. In addition to high dose IO2, interferon alpha and interferon beta were also shown to have activities against renal cell chastinoma. So they do this by one, stimulating the immune system, two by directly inhibiting tumor cell growth. So here is the data on high dose IO2 as you can tell from this graph for those patients who have complete response, they actually can live for a long time up to 10 years or beyond. However, for those patients who only have partial response, the median overall survival is only about two years. And these are the pros and cons of high dose IO2 therapy as I mentioned a moment ago. So the long-term survival of 10 years or beyond is very appealing. However, the response rate is very low. Only less than 7% of patients will have complete response and only about 15% of patients will have partial response and then the rest of patients will not have response from high dose IO2 therapy. It is also very toxic. So patients often require ICU care due to heart failure or septic shock-like symptoms. Therefore, this type of therapy is limited only to what's called the healthier patients, which means for patients who are older who do not have great organ functions such as, with COPD, diabetes, even mild heart failure or renal failure. So these patients will not benefit from such treatment. And here's the data showing the interference with and without bevacizumab, which is a standard of care target therapy for renal cell cosenoma as Dr. Tenir just mentioned. So indifferent alone overall can cause response in about 13% of patients. And then when bevacizumab was added, so about 25% of patients will respond to such therapy. And then the median free survival for indifferent alone is about five months when bevacizumab was added, the progression free survival was increased to over eight months. However, addition of bevacizumab to interfering gamma did not cause any significant prolongation of overall survival. And so I'm gonna spend most of the time talking about immune checkpoint therapy. This is truly a very exciting development in treating not only kidney cancer, but also many other different types of malignancies. This was developed by James Anderson, who is the director of the immunotherapy platform at MD Anderson. So what is immune checkpoint blockhead therapies? I'm gonna give you a very brief introduction of the background of immunology. So this is a pretty difficult task, but if you just follow me step by step, I think you will understand this very well. So in order for the T cells to be activated to cure tumor cells, there have to be two sets of signals. We call it signal one and the signal two. So signal one is provided by a molecule. It's called T cell receptor on the T cells or TCR. And the tumor antigens presented on the antigen presenting cells. That's the first set of signal. The second set of signal is produced by, is provided by the interaction between two molecules. One is called CD28 and the other one is called B7. So with this two sets of signals, you can achieve a pretty good tumor cell killing. However, tumor cells are very smart. They actually can express some molecules to inhibit the T cells. And the T cell by itself can also inhibit, can also express some inhibitory molecules to curb the immune response. Why? Because if you keep activating your immune system without a break, so it will actually cause damage to your body. So there is some checks and balance molecules here. One of them is known as CTOA4, one of the breaks. The other break is known as PD1. The third one is known as PDL1, and the fourth one is PDL2. So once these inhibitory molecules are engaged with T cells, so the tumor cell killing is actually, is damaged. So what Dr. Anderson found was, when he used this monoclonal antibodies to take away these breaks. So he can keep these T cells consistently activated for tumor cell killing. As a result, you have more tumor cell killing. So that's the basics of immune checkpoint therapy. So the first immune checkpoint agent was called Iplumam, or anti-CTOA4, which is against this molecule here. So it was tested in metastatic melanoma.  So on average, these patients can live only about 12 months. So if you look at this phase three data, the data alone appeared not to be very impressive because most of these patients actually don't benefit from such therapy. However, about 20% of patients will survive for up to almost five years. So considering most patients only live for about 12 months, this is pretty striking. And then when you add another agent, it's called Nivellumam, which is anti-PD1, sorry, which is this molecule here. So the result is even more striking. As I mentioned, these metastatic melanoma patients only live on average of 12 months. But at 12 months here, when you use the two agents, so over 80% of these patients were still alive. So even at almost three years, more than 70% of these patients were still alive. So this is a truly amazing result. And because of this, immunotherapy was regarded as breakthrough of the year in 2013 by the science magazine. So what about these checkpoint therapies on renal cell carcinoma? So this was the first, first two clinical trial of epilumamab or anti-CTOF4 for metastatic renal cell carcinoma. At lower dose, epilumamab actually didn't have very much activity for renal cell carcinoma. However, at higher dose, which is the standard dose as used for melanoma patients. So the response was quite modest. Only five of 40 patients actually had response, which is about 13%. What about nevelumamab, which is the anti-PD1? That's the second immune checkpoint blockade agent. So this was recently published in Journal of Clinical Oncology by Bob Malza. So as you, they tested nevelumamab at three different concentrations, 0.3 milligram per kg, two milligram per kg, and a 10 milligram per kg. And here is the progression-free survival, which is not very impressive. It's only 2.7, 4.0, and 4.2. The response rate is, for all three concentrations, was about 20%. However, the median overall survival is pretty significant. As you can remember, if you remember, the interferon gamma plus beversusumab, the median overall survival is about 18 months. Here, it's increased to about 25 months at higher concentration of nevelumamab. So there is a phase three trial comparing anti-PD1 or nevelumab against everlimbs. This trial has finished recruitment, and hopefully we can hear about the data later this year. And I hope this agent can be approved by the FDA for the treatment of metastatic renal cell cosinoma. So what about the combination therapy of anti-PD1 or nevelumam and epilumamab? Since they were so impressive in metastatic melanoma. So here is a phase one trial, basically testing a combination of different concentrations of different doses of nevelumam plus epilumam, either at three milligram of nevelumam plus one milligram of nevelumam, or three milligram of epilumam plus one milligram per kg of nevelumam. So here is the data. So as you can tell, for both these groups, the response rates were very impressive. For nevelumam at three milligram per kg plus epilumam at one milligram per kg, the overall response rate was 43%. And the stable disease rate is 24%. So when you reverse this concentration, the overall response rate was still 43%, but the stable disease rate was 35%. However, this arm was shown to be very toxic. So currently the standard combination regimen is actually nevelumam of three milligram per kg plus epilumam of one milligram per kg. So overall, as you can tell, about 60 to 70% of patients actually can benefit from such combination therapy. And if you remember the high dose IO2 response rate, it was about 15 to 20%. This is much more impressive. And again, this is the progression free survival, which is about six months. So currently there is a phase three randomized trial comparing this combination therapy with nevelumam plus epilumam versus sutent in patients who were previously entreated metastatic renal cell Casanoma. So this trial is currently open and led by Dr. Tuneer. So we just enrolled some patients during the past couple of weeks. So here is the study design. So basically this population of patients will be entreated they will also get tissue for biomarker staining, which is similar to what this lady just asked about. So this is how we use this biomarker to guide therapy in the future. So these patients will be randomized into two arms. In arm A, patients will be treated with nevelumam plus epilumam. In arm B, they will receive standard therapy agent, sutent, which is one of the best target agents for treating metastatic renal cell Casanoma. So that's the combination between the immune checkpoint agents. What about the combination of immune checkpoint blockhead agents plus the target agents? So there is one trial, a phase one trial to evaluate the combination of nevelumam plus either sutent or persopenate. So this trial, this is the trial design. So it's a little bit confusing here. So basically it's two arms. One arm using sutent plus different concentrations of nevelumam. The other one is persopenate plus increasing concentrations of nevelumam as well. So here is the result. As you can tell, for the patients who get sutent plus nevelumam, the overall response rate was 52%. Stable disease was 30%. So when patients get persopenate plus nevelumam, the overall response rate was 45%. And a stable disease was 35%. So in total, about 80% of patients actually benefit from such combination. So this is even more striking, more impressive comparing to the two checkpoint blockhead agents of nevelumam plus epilumam. And the progression, so free survival here is also increased when, so in the sutent plus nevelumam group, the progression free survival is about one year. And for the persopenate plus nevelumam group, the progression free survival was eight months. So as you can recall, for the previous trials, most of the progression free survival was anywhere between four to eight months. So this one actually increased to 12 months. We have another combination trials currently open at MD Anderson. So by testing combinations of nevelumam plus either epilumam or bevacizumam, which is a standard of care target agent for renal cell carcinoma. So this is a pre-surgical trial in patients who have metastatic renal cell carcinoma but eligible for cytoreductive nephrectomy, which is to take out the primary tumor as Dr. Wood talked about earlier today. So in this trial, patients will be randomized into three different arms. So in the first arm, the patients will be treated with nevelumam only every two weeks for three doses. After that, they will have surgery to take out their primary kidney cancer. So if they derive clinical benefit before surgery, which means if they have clinical response or stable disease, after surgery, they will still be given nevelumam as maintenance therapy. The second arm is, on the second arm, patients will be treated with nevelumam plus bevacizumam. And this is also every two weeks for three doses followed by surgery, followed by maintenance therapy. On the third arm, patients will be treated with nevelumam plus epilumam. But this is every three weeks because these two combinations is more toxic. So for two doses, followed by surgery plus maintenance therapy if they benefited pre-surgery call prior to surgery. So the advantage of this trial is it will allow us to collect pre- and post-treatment blood and also tumor tissues. And in this way, we can study the biology even in a very organized way to inform us what patients will benefit from this therapy, what patients will not benefit from this therapy if they don't in the future. Whether how can we basically put them on a different type of treatment. So one thing I want to bring to your attention, that's immune-related toxicity, which is also known as IRAEs, which stands for immune-related adverse events. So you will probably hear about more and more. So despite the very exciting data on immune checkpoint therapy, they are also associated with very significant toxicities. And this toxicity will require a very, very good communication, very timely communication between our patients and as a clinical team to manage these toxicities. So here I listed the five most common, but also potentially fatal, toxicities. The first one is called pneumonitis, which means inflammation of the lungs. So when patients experience shortness of breath, even very mildly, even on exertion, especially with exertion, we should know about this right away. There's just a few days of delay can cause death. So this is known nationally. The second one is diarrhea or colitis, which means inflammation of the colon. So if you have just one or two episodes of diarrhea on this type of drugs, all abdominal pain, cramping, you need to cause immediately. So if you delay for a few days, so this can be very difficult to treat and then this can also result in death. The third one is called hepatitis or inflammation to the liver. So this one is difficult to find for the patient because often you just have some vague symptoms, like fatigue, some pain in the right abdomen. So but often you don't feel very much unless you did lab tests and then reveal elevation of liver enzymes. So this one can also be fatal if it's treated too late. The fourth one was called hypophocytus, which means inflammation of the pituitary gland. This one is also very dangerous. So if you experience headache, acute vision change, fatigue, or if you measure blood pressure at home, you find your blood pressure is in the 70s or 80s. So that suggests you might have this hypophocytus. So the danger of hypophocytus, it drops your hormone, including cortisol, including the thyroid hormone. So when cortisol is dropped, so your blood sugar can drop and then your blood pressure can drop dramatically. This way you can pass out very easily. So we should know about this as soon as possible. So even a day can make a huge difference here. The fifth one is very common. Most patients actually have certain type of dermatitis or rash on your body. So if it's mild and it does not progress very much, it's actually very easy to treat. You can just put some banageal cream on it or hydrocodicone cream. However, if it gets worse to the point that you have blisters on your skin, you have to come to the hospital. You have to cause immediately, come to the ER for evaluation. So because this can progress very fast and then before long, you can have your skin slough off your body and at that time it can be fatal as well. So the key here is if you have any of the symptoms, you just tell us early. And then once we know about this, we will do a bunch of labs doing some very quick tests and then we will put it on high dose steroid. Most likely it will be fine, but if it's delayed, it's very, very dangerous. So in summary, high dose IoT therapy provides long-term survival, but with low response rate and a significant toxicity. Anti-CDOF4, anti-PD1, there is another one is called anti-PDL1 that I didn't talk, but they each have modest activity against renal cell casinoma. However, combination therapy, including anti-CDOF4 plus anti-PD1 or anti-PD1 plus the target agents provides a higher response rate with a pending survival data at this time. So immune-related toxicity have to be managed as early as possible. So I would like to thank you very much for your attention and also I would like to thank our patients for participation of this clinical trials as you can see from this history. So this is, all these amazing advances was essentially done on our patients with our patients and actually by our patients along with our research team without your support, these advances could not have been possible. So thank you very much. Any questions for JJ? Thank you.


I actually had a Kundalini awakening, which I didn't even know was a thing, but it inspired me to start living more ethically, and it just made me a better person to be honest. It's really made for meat-loving vegans. Yeah, that's me. I didn't give up meat because I didn't like the taste. Like for me, it's like, okay, I'm giving this up. Drying your tears with hamburger patties. Yeah, exactly. Meat-loving vegans. Yeah. It looks like real meat on the grill. It's got that bloodiness to it. It bleeds like meat. It really does have the same texture and taste. It's got that bloodiness to it. It bleeds like meat. It bleeds like meat. That's it! Oh my god, that looks so good. Oh my god.  Like you get the full experience of having a burger, which is what you want. Don't give me any more black bean patties. No, no, no. I really do know that this isn't meat, but I'm a little worried that this isn't meat. Yeah, is this really? Amazing. Amazing! So, the key to having that delicious meaty texture you want in a vegan burger, it does look like a little ground beefy if it were just a completely different color and maybe smelled completely different and maybe had a little blood in it. When I'm having a burger, you want it to be really meaty. It's got some vegan butter. This is kind of like our beef. It does look like ground beef. It really does. It does. It does. It does. It does. It adds some vegan butter. So the beets are going to give us that bloody... Yeah. That bloody... So weird as humans. Bloody... So weird. What?  Lookin' bloody! Wow, it's dark. Lookin' bloody! Wow, it's dark. And then you can put our delicious beet rice. Needy. Needy. That looks like store-bought ground meat to me. This is going to give us that chewy, meaty texture. This is the one ingredient you really don't want to skip on. It kind of looks even more like ground beef, because it's kind of like the fat, like these little white things. It's engineered to have a meaty taste. But to also get that same meaty experience, so you really get that meaty experience. But you can start small. You can start to incorporate meatless meals into your diet. And I have a problem with people that are vegan, especially online, that are like, oh, she cheated. Or oh, she had an egg. Or like, oh, this, now you're not vegan anymore. And I have a problem with people that are vegan. Or oh, she had an egg. Or like, oh, this, now you're not vegan anymore. It's like...


Life is about constant evolution, always better today than we were yesterday. There are no shortcuts to a successful fitness regimen, only hard work and consistency. And to navigate through the mountain of fitness advice available, candidates must learn to separate fad from function. I'm Daniel Fletcher. Welcome to the Only Easy Day was Yesterday, the official Navy SEAL podcast. In this extended series, we'll speak with select special warfare performance experts to clarify common training misconceptions and provide insight into areas of focus specifically important to special warfare candidates. Today, we extend our fitness series with a discussion about pool training with Bud's Phase 2 dive instructor, Mark James. Let's get started. Well, thank you for coming in to speak with us. You have a tremendous amount of experience in and out of the water, whether it's competition or education. So I think you have a lot to bring to the podcast in terms of knowledge and experience. We spoke with Dan Kish at NSW Prep in Great Lakes, specifically about water comfort and the combat side stroke. And I'd encourage anyone who's interested in any of that to tune into that episode if they're just getting started in the water looking for more info about the combat side stroke specifically. But I'd like to talk to you a little bit more about pool training outside of the combat side stroke and the run up to entering the pipeline. A lot of people have been exposed to running programming. They're a lot more familiar with the distances and times and intervals of training on the ground, on the pavement than they are being in the pool. So I'd like to maybe speak to the person who hasn't really done any formal swimming in terms of competition, people that have never swam in a pool with fins on or a mask or the stuff that would probably be wise for them to do before they come into the pipeline. So maybe if you could talk a little bit about some of the things you see people doing that aren't good and maybe just some of the intro level guidance stuff that you would say to somebody who's just kind of starting out with getting themselves into the pool. Sure. So before I start I'll say I was always amazed at the guys who joined the Navy and couldn't swim to begin with. I went to training in 1985 and we had a couple guys in my bud's class, one of 41, that had never been in the ocean and they had hardly been in the pool and actually those guys somehow made it and it was always incredible to see these guys attack a 12 foot wave after never seeing a wave or an ocean before and going out there and somehow overcoming their fears and getting through it. That being said, in this day and age most individuals that come through get to buds have gone through boot camp, have gone through buds prep. As you've mentioned Dan teaches a great deal of combat side stroke in a pool. A pool in the ocean are two different things. I encourage anyone who's not comfortable in the water to join a master swim team or hire a swim coach or become familiar with how to be proficient, streamline, how to be comfortable in the water because buds is not just about swimming side stroke, it's about diving, putting gear on, being in the ocean during all kinds of conditions and being able to swim not just vertically in the water but horizontally. We have a tread which consists of a five minute test where you have tanks on your back, 14 pounds of a weight belt, you have fins on, your hands out of the water and you're stationary for five minutes and it's amazing how many guys have a trouble with that evolution. You don't pass that, you don't move on through buds. Yeah and that's not like swimming in a traditional sense that you wouldn't be exposed to even if potentially you were like on the high school swim team even, right? A lot of individuals that can swim, we've just had an Olympian come through. He was a fantastic swimmer but when he put fins on he was just like the rest of the pack. Pushing fins is a skill. It requires strong hip flexors, ankle flexibility, muscles that you don't utilize when you swim. Now there's combat side stroke without fins that requires a scissor kick and a kind of a side stroke gliding motion and then there's the combat side stroke with fins which are completely different. I've done over 200 swims with buds classes. I've been instructor now a civilian for the last 10 years and I try and join every class for all five of their swims. I do the two, the three and a half and the five and a half mile swim. Sometimes I have to actually work. I have to actually be on one of the jet skis and monitor the swim as a lifeguard and you can always see the top swimmers off the front how efficient they are. They're gliding, they're effortless. They can hold a full conversation if need be and then you go to the middle of the pack and there's guys kind of struggling, some good, some bad and you go to the back of the pack. It's almost like a bell curve.  Their arms are flailing about. They're kicking with their knees. They're not pushing fins and they're almost going backwards. You try and talk to them and they are out of breath and panting. It's really comes down to efficiency being streamlined and also knowing how to guide. There's no lane lines in the ocean. You have to swim from point A to point B which is usually a half mile or a mile and if you don't know how to guide, you're going to go an extra distance two or three or four or five hundred extra yards which just adds to your time. There's time standards. Each phase has a certain time standard. You don't make that mark. You're not going to move on. So, you spoke just a second ago about being with the candidates at Buds and kind of being with them through their training, not just as an educator and I think that's one of the unique things about Buds is that the people that are teaching you and coaching you and judging you or instructing you are able to really do what they're asking and I think that's something that we shouldn't skip over so maybe we rewind a little bit and talk a little bit about your experience personally that's kind of led you up to this point. I think if people did even a brief amount of the research I did just looking at your history and your background they'd be blown away by some of the things you've accomplished in your life. Talk a little bit about your physical fitness, kind of life experience from a fifty thousand foot view. You've done a lot of competitive races, education. I'll let you kind of take it from there. Yeah, I was very fortunate. I lived in Cyprus when I was about eight months to two years old and so I was introduced to the ocean very, very early in my life. My dad was in the embassy. We traveled around a lot and swimming is something I could always do. If it was football, basketball or baseball, I was picked last. I mean literally came down to a little Timmy with one leg who was blind in one eye or me and they picked a little Timmy but when it came to swimming I could always swim. I could free dive, I could hold my breath and that just progressed into eighth grade, high school, post high school. I almost had a swimming scholarship and right before I accepted it, I joined the Navy. Pool evolutions and ocean evolutions were easy. They really are. People say, how do you swim so fast? And I think I'm just, I have some kind of, I don't want to say a gift, but it's a gift. The time standard for the swims are still relatively the same, 75 minutes and my swim buddy and I were going 53 minutes. So while I could swim, I struggled on things like the obstacle course. I hated pull-ups. I keep on thinking I can't do pull-ups because my arms are the longest in the world. But swimming became relatively easy. I was only in the Navy for five years and I had an illusion that I could get out, make millions of dollars being a professional triathlete. I swam and ran in school. I used to ride my bike to swim and practice. I did my first triathlon, won a pair of shoes and was hooked. I loved the sport of triathlon. When was this? So this is 1985. When I joined the Navy, I got out in 91. I raced the, I did the Hawaii Ironman. I did that 10 years in a row. My life was, we revolved around swimming, biking, running. I also went to school, went to graduate school in Arizona, primarily to train in altitude. I lived in Flagstaff. I usually came out fairly well on the swim and then the bikers would catch me and then the runners would catch me. I could never really put together a full professional package. So I was usually living in the back of my truck and I started coaching to make money and then also doing some other odds and ends. What type of coaching did you swim? So I was a swim coach for eight years at a little high school up in Forestville, Northern California and then I also coached cross-country running and then I got a job as a cross-country coach at Sonoma State University. In the meantime, I continued to race triathlons and then 10 years ago I got the opportunity to come on board as a civilian instructor. I was in second phase, which is the dive phase. They looked at my resume and they said, oh, you have the swimming experience. I did a substantial amount of diving when I was in the teams as a lead combat diving instructor and I had classroom experience and also coaching and mentoring experience. So I'm very fortunate. I've been an instructor for 10 years. I put 55 classes through. It's over 2,000 guys and part of my job, in addition to teaching new instructors, teaching the students, is also coaching, mentoring, not just diving, but swimming. And I enjoy. I like getting in the water with the students. I like, it's a little testosterone match to see who can take me out, do all the swims with them and also the obstacle course. I don't do triathlons anymore. I got turned on to these Tough Mudder 12-hour to 24-hour races that ironically they don't involve any swimming whatsoever. I don't know why I'm doing them. I'm obsessed with winning the series and the next year I'll be doing swim-run races, hopefully overseas and around the states. So those are 12-hour long races? They're 12- to 24-hour endurance races where it's a 5-mile obstacle course and you just continue to do them over and over again for the 12-hour duration. There's five of them and then the championship is in November and that's a 24-hour race called the World's Toughest Mudder and I've done it the last four years. You acquire points. Two years ago you get a point and two years ago I was second overall in the point series. Last year I was fourth overall and this year I'm leading and I'm hoping to win the thing. But it involves travel. It involves expenses. Time. So how many of those have you competed in? So I've done 76 Tough Mudder races and I've done 14 of the 8- to 12-hour races and four of the 24-hour races.  I wouldn't say a natural. I was extremely... I was leading on to it earlier. I was very uncoordinated as a kid. I could not dribble, pass, catch or throw. I just was... my synopsis were off but in the water I felt very comfortable and it's not a natural gift. I mean there's some natural athletes out there. I see them coming through buds all the time. I'm not a natural athlete. I struggle. When I ran my legs flayed out. I was afraid to run until I was like 12 years old because people would make fun of my running. My swimming is just something that I could do. In high school and in college. So the combat side stroke is a required swim stroke for the physical readiness test and they do combat side stroke in buds the first few weeks and then you get fins and then you really don't do much side stroke after that. It's a great stroke if you're a lifeguard and for a low profile there are some similarities between the diving position and the side stroke but as a breaststroker my legs go a certain direction and they don't go the side stroke scissor kick direction so anybody could probably swim faster than me side stroke but with fins I'm fairly decent. So let's expand on that a little bit because fins are not seen in competitive swimming at least in the traditional sense I mean obviously there's some dive competitions that use fins and stuff like that but talk a little bit about how you recommend people start to incorporate fins into their swimming I think there's a potential there for overtraining or injury it's a piece of rubber and it's a deceptively powerful device and you know what I mean a lot of people just think I'll just throw these fins on Sure, there's a variety of fins out there and I have probably 14 sets of fins at home that I use for different things I use a Churchill fin which is kind of an angle fin when you put them together they look like the fluke of a dolphin's tail and I use that for boogie boarding I have long fins that are three feet long that are made out of carbon fiber that I use for freediving or spear fishing I use a scuba pro fin if I'm swimming with the students because that's what they wear I want to be on even keel with them when I'm doing my pull exercises I'll use a short fin either a zoomer or a little longer that I can just turn over really fast there are different fins for different uses and what's important is that someone just doesn't go out there by a pair of fins and get in the pool or get in the ocean and just wail away you've got to build up stamina muscle strength, some people have experienced calf cramps I'll do a swim set with guys and they haven't done fin swims before and within the fourth or fifth hundred yard interval, their calves are cramping up it's a different muscle group it's so different, you're not plying pressure on your muscles when you're not utilizing a fin it's completely different so you think people should start gradually maybe on off or what's kind of your approach for that an on off approach kind of like when I tell runners they've never run before that to start a running program it starts kind of like a crawl, walk, run you do three days a week of walking and then running and then build up maybe not that low but at least a gradual thing if you just get in the pool and try doing fin sets for half an hour a day you might experience kind of a burnout or an injury so you build up swim sets, I always encourage if you're in a pool, warm up 500-1000 yards then have a set written out a little piece of paper or a little pad with a grease pencil, maybe 10-100s on the whatever interval a lot of pools will have a pace clock and I'll look at the clock or I'll look at my watch and I'll do a pace and then I'll do the same set utilizing fins and I do fins work on my side and on my back and on my front freestyle, side stroke, back stroke I do not encourage swimming breaststroke with fins, it's kind of ridiculous your legs just don't work that way but you can utilize a kickboard, which is a foam board and just go back and forth with your heads out of the water or modified swim strokes stroke drills, I'm really big on one arm freestyle, close fist freestyle doing sets and then also underwater work I played a sport called underwater hockey that a lot of people haven't heard about and it's basically you have a mass fins snorkel you have a padded glove and you have a stick, it's about 12 inches long slightly curved and it's basically just like hockey, it's six on six but you're underwater and you have a puck and the puck stays in the bottom of the pool and one team has white sticks, the team has black sticks and your goal is to push that puck into a goal and it was excellent training because you're holding your breath you're moving this thing back and forth it's a team work, you had that puck you flick it and then another team gets it or you get it to your buddy and then you make a goal and excellent breath hold work I always am a little worried about telling people to do underwater work like I was in free diving for quite a bit and shooting fish and it's a dangerous sport I mean guys get shallow water black out they pass out underwater, we've had several frogmen actually die breath holding, swimming shooting fish and so you gotta always make sure you have a solution, you have if not a lifeguard then a buddy who's watching you, not underwater with you but on the surface monitoring you and making sure it's safe we've had individuals getting trouble and so it's just safety is important there's no reason why you can't have a buddy watching you so in regards to safety I guess we'll just kind of finish up the thin piece is it easy enough for people to monitor let's say it's the first time they've had fins on in the pool and they're going to do some laps like when to take them off to swim without them will they start to feel certain parts of their body will start to get tight or anything for them to look out for it's time to say okay this is enough for today get back on this my next training session or anything like that. Sure it really depends on the individual whether they put fins on before whether it's brand new I encourage them just to go a simple set get a feel for their fins a lot of times if I'm using a new fin kind of like a running shoe it will start rubbing on the top of my foot so there's a very thin neoprene booty that I use with a lot of the fins I use and then there's open heel fins and there's closed heel fins and the open heel fins actually has a strap on the back of the fin that you can actually adjust and cinch tight the fins we use in buds are scuba pros jet fins and you have to wear a booty with that or else you'll wear a hole in the top of your foot because it's just the movement your foot moves inside the fin. There are a variety of sizes in the scuba pro fin there's small all the way up to triple extra large and it's important to get the right size fin. I've seen guys put on fins and they can't move them especially for the tread or the distant swim they kick for the first five minutes and then they're just essentially just barely moving their legs now they're dragging that heavy fin so use the appropriate fin. Yeah do some research it seems like that's kind of a deceptively simple thing it's like a pair of goggles or something just go pick them up or jump online and order a pair but send you a mask. One size does not fit all. Yeah do your research. I encourage 13 foot and I used to be able to push an extra large scuba pro fin when I was younger now I have to go with a large and I have a very fast turnover so a smaller fin faster turnover if you can push fins then go bigger. Yeah I think it's deceptively simple people might think it's just like a piece of any other sporting apparatus would be like you know something that's pretty simple you just pick out whatever everyone else is using and just go to it but it's going to have to fit your body it's going to have to be a specific length you don't just want to like get some commercial disposable vacation fins you know that you would get at Walmart it's not the same kind of thing. No and a lot of times fins fall apart not necessarily because of the user but it's important after you're in the swimming pool or the ocean you rinse those things off salt water and even chlorine will eat true fins very quick so take care of your gear get a pair of fins that work for you you can go to a big five sports or you can order them online I suggest getting the fins out of the package putting them on seeing if they work getting a small booty so you don't wreck your feet and then getting in a pool and then doing the sets that I suggested even if it's just down and back look at your time how do you feel it's really important you're using your hip flexors and the front parts your ankles to push those fins a lot of guys just start kicking and they're kicking literally with their knees when you use a fin you should feel the pressure on the front part of your fin on the one foot and the back part of your fin on the other and just it's a constant back and forth and I do kind of either a flutter kick which is just a back and forth think of freestyle flutter kick and I'm on my side or a dolphin kick where my knees and my legs are basically together and I'm doing a dolphin kick back and forth and what's important is you're efficient I'm out of breath you have time you're breathing a lot of times when I do the swims with the students I just have one arm in front of me and one arm at my side and I'm just on my side and I'm just kicking a relatively fast turnover whereas sometimes in the side stroke guys are using arms but if they don't do it right it's almost like they're throwing out an anchor and they're slowing themselves down flailing around flailing around so efficiency is something I've heard you speak about just numerous times today and other swim professionals talk about it as well is that what you have found yourself in your experience calling out to students whether it's at buds or in civilian life the most as far as things you see them doing wrong and telling them to correct constantly I'm on the obstacle course which we have at buds one of the toughest obstacle courses in the world and I see people go on that for the first time and they take 15 to 20 minutes because they don't know how to climb a rope they don't know how to get over a wall they're completely inefficient they use so much energy on the first five obstacles they can't get through the last 10 obstacles so it's not about strength it's about knowing how to do the obstacle efficiently not burning out their arms knowing how to climb a rope by utilizing their feet not their arms with fin swimming if you're kicking with your knees or you're flailing your arms around and you're out of breath especially on a two or three mile swim you're not going to get anywhere you're going to go backwards and you're going to suffer a lot of times I'm thinking about how is my body position how streamline am I I'm constantly swimming people think oh you just space out when you swim and run with both sports I'm constantly thinking about body dynamics how can I go faster how can I save energy what do I look like am I a starfish in the water or am I a swordfish and envision that swordfish just being sleek and swimming straight and getting there and back efficiently being I think in tune with your body and in the moment of exercise is something I've heard echoed through a lot of the professionals I've spoken with I think it's a really big important part that people can easily overlook because it's not a specific exercise that you do it's not a specific food or training program that kind of hones that in it's really your own self-awareness to developing efficiency or just seeing and analyzing your own movement patterns how are you doing this how are you doing that could I take that out should I not be pushing so hard here whatever just having that sensitivity earlier you talked about hiring a swim coach or being part of a league or a swimming club or something like that for people who maybe don't have somebody like that do you think that there's resources online or would you just encourage people to do their own research or how would you recommend people approach that if they're middle America and don't have access to a swimming club or maybe don't have the financial means to do that or whatever sure it's hard to find a swimming pool and a swimming pool that's open and a schedule and some pools the local pool here costs $7 just to go use the pool what I have at my disposal I'm very fortunate I live in Coronado so I have a bay on one side of where I live and also there's lifeguards to monitor I swim around a buoy I'm out there quite often there are so many videos on how to swim online and that's good to a point to look and see someone else's swimming technique they slow down their video you can see how they are you can kind of visualize but I encourage someone who wants to come into special forces especially the Navy or the Navy SEAL program they have to get in the water they have to get to a pool or a river or some kind of venue they can't expect to come through this training there's so much water activity in butts and if you don't feel comfortable in the water I mean water comfortability and swimming and efficiency and streamline it's just every phase of training if you can't swim you're not going to make it through you're going to have to go through another division in terms of training volume obviously the types of competitions that you embark on or compete in require way more volume than what's probably needed for people entering the pipeline to come into buds and I know it's difficult to pin or it's probably not appropriate to pin an exact number on the mileage or yards that someone should be covering on a week but can you maybe unpack that a little bit and get people at least a rough idea the type of volume that you think would be appropriate for the average person that sets them up for success to come in here to at least be able to put their best foot forward sure a person coming through buds does not have to do the collegiate mileage that I did which is sometimes 10 to 15,000 yards a day that's over 6 miles a day of swimming but that's because I swam long distance freestyle and I swam breaststroke a buds candidate should be swimming at least 4 days a week in my opinion running 4 or 5 days a week doing weights doing other things to prep them for the buds program everyone should be familiar with what the PST is, the physical standard test and that consists of a 500 yard swim a mile and a half run, 2 minutes of push ups 2 minutes of sit ups, max pull ups they should do that proficiently and if they do it well enough they can get an auto-qual that's what they used to have, an auto-qual vacation contract and that's what they should be trying to achieve I encourage guys and females that are eligible as well to do a PST to record their times take about 10 minutes grab some nutrition, grab a Gatorade and then go do that PST again and then record their times and they're really gung-ho in shape to do it again initially the students have to be able to well become students, they have to pass the PST and then in buds themselves the longest swim that they'll do is 5 and a half miles of nautical swimming that's not until their fifth month of buds the average swim is 2 miles it's in the ocean, you do relatively little side stroke without fins after the first couple weeks of buds but there's like one step at a time pass the PST, get a good score be proficient in swimming regarding mileage I don't think a student or a potential student needs to swim more than 3,000 yards every time they swim they should be able to sprint they should be able to swim underwater they should be able to swim a set amount of time wearing fins without being exhausted that makes a lot of sense, I think people maybe want to hear the prescription for the perfect program to be able to, I do these things and I'll make it through, but it sounds like it's a lot more about being comfortable and capable in the water and getting to that point just takes exposure not necessarily a specific program like you're talking about doing dynamic play underwater with the hockey or just in general being comfortable in that space enough that you can perform and then it becomes you pushing yourself at buds in that space where you're comfortable as opposed to something that's so new to you that you're stumbling through it it's kind of what I'm hearing from you do you think that's pretty accurate? it is, when I coach swimmers I train them like I coach runners I say hey, on one day swim or run by yourself with a lifeguard present on another day swim or run with someone who's a little faster than you that's competitive that you do a set with them and you're trying to race them to be a little slower than you that you can kind of back off and push them there's a kind of symbiotic relationship when I did triathlons I would run with professional runners and they would just kill me on the track or on the hills I would bike with category one professional cyclist and they would destroy me on the hills and then I would also swim with Olympic type swimmers and they would kill me too well those three individuals if I was to do a triathlon against them I would beat them and so it's a humbling experience taking that abuse and just taking that discipline and getting after it and keep on striving and then learning from the best what the seals do and other special forces do is we learn we're not necessarily the best parachuters or divers or skiers but we find the best skiers in the world and we say hey what can we learn from them how do we become more proficient how do we become the best because we have so many skill sets that we have to be proficient at it's hard to be a master of all sports yeah kind of getting your exposure from as many sources as you can I think that's something that's a continuous thread through training for buds or active seals their quest to find out the truth or find out the right way or the best way and it often times just requires doing a lot of research exposure asking the questions and finding out for yourself because there's a lot of noise out there in terms of physical fitness and even smaller portions of that specifically swimming everyone would like to think that there's a master plan or the right way to do something but a lot more of it is about the attitude of being humble like you're saying exposing yourself to professionals and being in that environment learning continuous education that way you're kind of developing yourself and then you have your own knowledge as opposed to just trying to echo somebody else's opinion or life experience ultimately putting in the time I do these endurance races and I'm always amazed at how many people sign up on a whim and then they come to the race and they're completely out of shape and the same thing happens sometimes at the PST or buds training I am really amazed at how many people come into buds especially after being at their prep and they're really not in the kind of shape in my opinion they should be and there's limitations at Great Lakes and I don't think they have soft sand or run in they don't have a rough ocean to swim in I don't know much fin use they're doing but there's so much more that individuals can do and it's really a self-discipline thing you have to want it you have to make yourself uncomfortable every day that's almost become a cliche saying but you really have to do that whether it's getting up early and going for a run or taking a cold shower eating Brussels sprouts or something you don't want to do and do it because that's what buds is buds is extremely difficult and I hate to see kids come through this program and they're shell shocked like oh my gosh I'm getting yelled at or I'm having to run when I'm wet and sandy and my body is chafed or I'm tired I've been up for like three days and now they want me to swim two miles in the ocean that's what it's about it's all a training for the real world I often tell people I was scared or tired or and colder after buds then I was in buds and people was wow yeah and I didn't really do anything I mean I got out after after five years I didn't do a lot I was the winner were for platoons where we froze of course I dove in ice water I climbed mountains and those type of things but people got to understand what they are signing up for this is not a movie it's not a book it's a serious thing you know training tough it out you have to make a war and if you have to go out the ocean and swim for five or six miles now holding a buddy or holding a piece of equipment I could think of a jump I did where I jumped out of an airplane and I hit the water and we had to hold on to our parachutes because it was a training operation and I was in the middle of the training sea and it's two thousand feet deep and I'm holding on to that parachute being heavier and heavier and heavier and the whole time I'm thinking if I lose this parachute I'm going to get in so much trouble and I was the last guy out of a stick of 24 that jumped out of the airplane to get picked up and that thing felt like it weighed four hundred pounds but by God I held on to that parachute and when the boat came over they pulled it up and I was exhausted I didn't have fins on either I was kind of treading water and boots holding on to this parachute Bud's is hard and seal training is hard and being a seal is very hard So just to touch back on a little bit of equipment I think a lot of people might have some questions about that other than fins what types of gear you think people should expose themselves to whether it's snorkels mask goggles or the type of swimwear what do you kind of recommend for people just starting out so they maybe don't feel like completely lost in what they should try to expose themselves with I encourage everyone to know how to use a mask and clear it underwater because masks get kind of dislodged underwater know how to clear it you simply blow air out of your nose and clear the water out of the mask I also encourage the use of a snorkel a snorkel allows you to be on the surface and look down through your mask and actually breathe through a snorkel it's a little tube for people to know what a snorkel is and when you go underwater that snorkel fills up with water and then what you do is when you come back to the surface when the top of the snorkel clears the surface you use the last breath of air to exhale and you forcefully blow that air out of the snorkel and if you do it right you don't have to take the snorkel out of your mouth you can take the next breath of air usually there's a little trickle of water in there but learn how to use a mask and a snorkel learn how to use fins go somewhere tropical the underwater sea life is my favorite place to be I love being underwater I like the simplicity of fins, mask, snorkel and swimsuit I think if I was to go through buds again in my own experience I was a great swimmer but I was weak upper body, I was weak on the obstacle course I prayed to God I wouldn't fail the obstacle course because I didn't want to get rolled and I think someone who's balanced and they're running they're upper body fitness, they're swimming has an easier time coming through training I often tell the students I teach that we all have strengths and weaknesses and I kind of joke that's why I work on my strengths I work on my swimming all the time I should, ironically I do these obstacle course races which is all upper body strength work as I said earlier, find a coach if you can or someone who's really good at whatever it is you're weak at kind of pick their mind and who knows maybe they can't run or they can't balance their checkbook or they don't know how to work a computer there's always like this give and take it's great when that works out but swimming is something that if you didn't grow up swimming it's going to be work your uncle throw you in the pool you know you hear those stories I did not swim my uncle threw me in the water it's more than that it's learning how to be proficient in the water and comfortable I see guys that do these tests and I know in the first minute that they're going to have a hard time their eyes get big and they move really fast under water jittery and it's okay to be nervous but it's better to be calm cool and collected and then just follow the procedures people have this illusion that pool competency which I teach is basically a 20-minute test where the student wears tanks and as an instructor we go down there we turn their air off we put them in uncomfortable positions and they think that's all about holding their breath for five minutes or long periods of time or untying god-awful knots it's not it's following procedures the students are never under water on a breath hold for more than a minute everything is very safety oriented and they've been taught along the way in a series of pre-tests of what to expect on that final test and if they can just remain calm so water comfortability involves knowing how to move under water but also having self-talk mechanisms in place where you can just have a mantra you're constantly telling yourself it's okay I love you grandma I can do this just do it and that's a repeated theme and I do that still to this day in the races I suffer I'm like okay I can do this I can do this it can be a simple slow down your mind sometimes slower is faster it's smooth as fast but I caught myself saying that slow as fast what does that mean? slow it down and also staying in a present moment I see so many people come through the training and they keep on thinking oh what's going to happen tomorrow especially five days of staying up and the first day they start thinking what's going to happen tomorrow it's going to happen no stay right locked in in the present moment and you're going to do better thank you so much for your time I appreciate it people want to find out more they can visit the Sealswick website there's a lot of good information there in terms of swimming and the specific strokes but I think you've provided a lot of good knowledge and kind of foundation for people thank you for your time great thank you for having me I hope to see some of these listeners in Bud's I'll be there another 20 years hopefully


All right, thanks for staying with us now. Sustainable SMEs are an essential component for Nigeria's economy to thrive because they can help to create jobs, boost economic growth, protect the environment, and improve social well-being. They are also more resilient to shocks and crises. Technology is a necessary tool for any kind of business, especially for SMEs in Nigeria to thrive and compete in the global marketplace. It can help them improve efficiently and productively, reduce costs, reach new markets, and gain a competitive advantage. However, not all small businesses have been able to leverage the benefits that come with being a digital native. So tonight, we're asking what is the influence of tech in building sustainable SMEs in Nigeria? Now, please let's hear what you have. Say remember, you can join the conversation. Send us an SMS or WhatsApp to the world, 1-803-4663. All right, so quickly, NJ, since you are the tech people, how important is tech in small businesses these days? Yeah, it's just like what I was saying earlier. It makes your business, it moves your business faster. It helps you automate, digitalize. It helps for you to increase customer base and even have a track record of that in terms of reporting. It helps you make easier partnerships. So it has brought forward a whole lot of things that used to be like a cage and used to be like it has changed and revolutionized all those things. And now you see what would take a business weeks and months to achieve. Now you take it in a day, less than hours. So it has done a lot. Absolutely. So let me bring Fariza, understands the role of SMEs in evaluating or elevating rather than fast-tracking development in Nigeria and Africa at large. This has filled her passion to contribute tirelessly to supporting small and medium-scale businesses with development strategies and technology infusion for business growth and sustainability. She is the head of strategy and operations at MindShift Business Solution and has three years experience as a business development expert providing strategic and innovative solutions that have helped businesses experience 70% increase in client base. That one is measurable. And she's joined us live in studio. Hi, Fariza. Hi. Are you mother, Fariza? Yeah. No, Fariza is fine. I like this idea that it's actually traceable or what they call it scalable and it is measurable. You know, sometimes you have business development experts, they come into your business. You can't even measure how much growth has happened in your business. So I like the fact that if I try to come into my business now, let me just give you a warning. If I don't, I will call you out. But that's just try to put the mood lighter. I mean, so we all know that tech is actually, well, I call it a new goal now, a lot of people are actually building different things around technology, making it, you know, even easier, more accessible, more, what's it called, the navigation, the user journey is quite easy these days. People are bringing lighter solutions, quicker solutions, things that are not so complicated as we used to know tech to be. So is there an excuse for any small business not to be thinking of infusing technology in their business today? Okay. First of all, good evening. And thank you, Uwa and NG for having me. So there's really no excuse, right? I feel like there's no excuse. Because just like you said, it is now easy, right? It is now easy to implement.  So there's really no excuse. Well, I mean, probably when you ask another question, I'll share my thoughts on why I feel like, you know, some SMEs are not embracing technology. You can go ahead and just share that. Because if there's no excuse, I was going to just follow it up. We say, so why are people not? What is the, what's the barrier? Why are people not thinking in that direction? Okay. So two things, you know, that I'm just going to highlight. First is the fact that there's still, maybe we can call it a mental block in the sense that some people still think technology is far reaching. So we say that, oh, it's now more accessible, but that's how we are looking at it. So some people still feel like this thing is hard, right? I don't really understand what's happening there and I'm not interested. So I think that's the first thing, that mental block. Yeah. So that's one. And then the next might also now be close to the mental block. It can also be a challenge of finding the right tool. Now, because of the interesting time we live in where you can literally Google anything and you can just say, maybe for example, let me use a CRM too, because I mean, most businesses, CRM is a customer relationship management tool. So maybe you're just like, what CRM tool can I use and then trust Google to give you all sorts of options. And you know, it now becomes a question of which one should I actually use? Which one would fit my business? Which one would fit what I'm doing? Because not all tools will give you the same offering. And trust me, I don't think many business owners are interested in doing that. Especially, I mean, if it's a large organization where they have a tech team, that's a different conversation. But somebody that maybe they have just two staff and they are generating revenue and they are okay.  And they start that process. They're like, you know what, I don't know what's this thing. I'm not doing it again. So I think those are two major things that I feel like maybe challenges to adopting technology. Interesting. Indri. Well, you said quite a bit, but my question will come to what are those challenges? What are those things? I know that you said that they don't. And you've given some of the news. So what, how do they move forward? How do you convince them? Because I'm also in the same line and it takes a while, like it takes longer to close deals. And it's surprising that in Nigeria, it takes longer to close deals with bigger organizations. So organizations that you expect to understand the need for it, the importance in their in running of their day to day activities, you are expecting them to understand the need. And then they just push it to the side.  And you would have closed like 10 small deals. And eventually you're looking at that small deals as the ones that you use to run the operations of the company, while you chase the bigger ones that get you actual, the profits that you deserve as a company. Why does it take that long for them to, I know, but I'm asking you today. But yeah, like I would like to, because we're here, what we're doing here is to educate people on the need and why they should. So I would like for you to actually be able to tell us why that happens and what they should do. How do business, you know, business people like you be able to convince them that there is a need for that? How what are the steps you take? Okay. That's a really interesting question. And you know, I just started to remember my experience, you know, working in the tech space and I know how just like you said, you go to a school and you're trying to explain to them that this school manager in my software is going to really make life easy for you. And they just feel like they feel like, oh, yes, I know, right. But I'm just not interested right now, or it's expensive and things like that. So just a few things that I would highlight. First of all, also the method in which that solution is being communicated. So instead of maybe approaching this business owner and saying, okay, this is what I'm offering you in that sense, this is my tech solution and all of that, you might want to show them a process in the organization, show them what they are doing, right? So and that way you are tailoring it to the exact oppressions they are carrying out, the exact services they are offering, show them exactly what this tool you're offering is actually going to do for them. Well, what I mean in essence, let me let me use a tech again, because I've worked in a tech for a while. So now using a tech for example, so maybe you can just use the example of, oh, imagine a teacher coming into class, maybe a class of 25 students, for example, and teacher is calling each student named by me to say they are trying to mark a tendance. Now look at, or even before as they are entering school, you account for every student and you just send this, in China they have those things from the gate. Exactly. The same thing. So now that way you're telling them that normally your mass class is not even enough. The teacher is saying, no, the time is up and we're not done. And then you're still using like 10 minutes to say you're trying to call everybody named as in tickets. So relating it in that way to what they are doing and really showing them specifics. This is exactly what it would do for you. Just tailoring back to what you said about business development. Once people see any kind of ambiguity, what you're offering them, they would just want to draw back, especially when you want to collect your money. Especially me. So they would draw back. It's just like, I get you, this thing is nice, but later on when I have no budget. So that's relating it to exactly what you are doing. Yes. Breaking it down to like layman terms of business, they now adopt it. Exactly. Let me go back to sustainability. Because we're talking SMEs now, according to World Bank, the statistics shows that about 600 million jobs will be needed by, I think it's 2030 now. Yeah. I think it's 2030. And the major employers of those labor will be SMEs. So this is, it tells me that you really cannot not pay attention to SMEs. So if we say we want to build sustainable SMEs in your own understanding, what is sustainability for a business? What does it mean? Because we use these terms loosely, especially because now, if you say anything, sustainability, and you can apply for grants, you and I give you money. So everybody say sustainability, but they don't really know what sustainability would mean in its real sense. So what would that mean from your own analysis? What does sustainability mean for a small business? Okay. Interesting question again. So generally, sustainability just refers to whatever resources is available, is available for a long time in layman's English, is available for a long time, such that you're using that resource today will not affect the ability of a future generation, right? Your children, for example, to use that same resource. Now, bringing it to businesses in the very basic term is the fact that you can keep delivering on your brand promise like overtime. And that even though you live in a volatile environment, you can still maintain the standard of what you're offering and the profitability of your business, right? So those two things are always there.  So sustainability is that ability to keep your business running, delivering on your promise, making sure you still have money because I mean, if you don't have money use, if there's no cash flow, you still have issues. So making sure that is happening, right? And then, you know, you now want to bring in things like ESG, making sure, you know, environmental, social and governance, in terms of you're making sure you're probably running a circular economy or making sure that's, you know, you're not violating any of those other principles in a simple way, right? I like to say sustainable business as a business that cannot live its founder. I know that's probably taking it a bit far, but it's not. That's how it's supposed to be. Because that's why we don't have businesses. I like where you're going with it because outliving the founder means that you have built a business. I mean, I was listening to someone that said that if you cannot live your business for 90 days, you're not in business. Don't call yourself an entrepreneur. You are not an entrepreneur because you cannot not be there. So you must put in structures and the only way you can put in those structures, it is through technology. Thanks for saying with us that if you just tuned in, we're having so much fun discussing influence of what's it called technology and building a sustainable business and we'll have Theresa. I call her Mother Theresa with us now. If you just tuned in, I'm sorry, you can call us on 0702. Are we calling today? No. Send us an SMS or WhatsApp to 0803-4663. I don't know, I'm so excited.  I am a business and I want to see Theresa come in to help me structure my business so that I can become a sustainable business and then put the influence of technology in that business. What's the first thing you do when you go into a business? How do you do the analysis? What do you do and all of that? Okay. So usually the first thing I look out for is I really want to understand the mind of the business owner. That's my own personal approach. I want to understand the thought of the business owner. I want to understand what is driving the business owner. I really want to get into their head space and see because that gives me more perspective to even see things you're not seeing at that point. So that's the first thing I usually do, just have a chilled conversation, just asking you how did you start? What motivated you? Why are you still here? All of those questions and then from there, I mean, the tools I use, there are different analysis I use to just, I mean, to also give me data. So I ask them certain questions that helps me also to see deep into where the business is. So that's the first thing I do. So after I do that, I now move them to having conversation with their staff, if they have staff, just to also hear their own thoughts about how things are done. And then I create like a roadmap. That's how I work. I create a roadmap. I can do maybe a three month or a six month roadmap and say, okay, this is what I can do for you. This is what will happen. This is what you should be expecting. And we have that. And I mean, whether it's technology inclusion or just basic advisory or, I mean, for some people, you come in, you know, with the notion of doing one thing and then you see a lot of other things and you're like, okay, this is something that needs to be fixed if you want to, for example, now an average business owner in Nigeria will be like, oh, I need grants or I need loans. Come on, help me apply for stuff and all of that.  And they're like, oh, we've been writing it. Oh, you even hear we've been writing it. So it's some month or there's a month or not. And I'm like, okay, first things first, we need to get to an university system first before we even go for that. Because I mean, if you, if you are still writing down, then there will be issues, right? Because it just, it's not traceable. Exactly. So we're like, okay, let's set that up and just make sure all of those, you know, literally two things are fixed immediately. So I hope I've answered your question.  I like the question, the answer. So it is based on the need of the business that not decides where you start from. But based, but you've done the normal and getting into the head of the owners. Yes. Yes. I get you. I get you. So one of the questions I would like to ask, because yes, what are the barriers and limitations that SM is faced with the adoption of technology? Because there's a good side and there's a bad side. Let's just charge it as an example. A major fear a lot of people have with charge it is that technology dependence, right? Where, you know, people now sort of stop thinking in that sense and really just allow charge it, think for them and other AI tools. And that's sometimes a fear.  Yeah, let's, I mean, they're simple in the humanity, but I don't want to lose my creativity. I don't want to become like one of these people who cannot think in essence, right? So that's that. I think that's one challenge people face. And then the one we talked about earlier about knowing exactly where to start. And that's where, you know, having somewhere you can even speak to. You know, I like to put it as basic as if you are not maybe a tech savvy person, just have a friend.  And you can always ask this thing, what am I doing? What do I need to do, right? All of that. But I mean, the honest truth is the business owner might not even know where they need technology. And that's really just it. So it now takes that external AI to be able to say, okay, this is where you need to start, right? And I don't want to say, you know, it's expensive. I actually don't want to say that. Yeah, I was coming in there because small, small businesses will tell you that. But this thing is actually very expensive for me. I can't afford it. You know, so what would you say to those people? Where are they trying to start from? What are they, what kind of technology are they getting? I mean, technology is different, you know, for defense industry. So for example, somebody in manufacturing now did, you might be thinking, well, they need some more expensive tools. But there's always a start point. There's always the baseline that you can say, okay, this is where we can start from. And I think it falls back to building your business with that mind that from this scratch, you want to make sure that you're having systems, automations. It's a cultural thing. It is you building that culture that okay, so that even when you bring in a staff that may not even be tech savvy, they cannot already see the culture and they are already stepping up, right? So that's really where it starts from. Instead of looking at it from the point of course, because to be honest, there's a lot of free options. If many of these tech tools will give you a free version, right? I'm trying not to mention names, you know, for obvious reasons, but many of these tech tools will give you a free version that you can start with. But you still need somebody to guide you on that. Yes. So that's where you guys now come in. Exactly. But I was going to say that technology is actually great. I know a gym, all of us know the gym company that, you know, I was shocked when I registered and they told me that they don't do cash, they don't do nothing.  So for that business, they're not thinking of the regular traditional thing of, oh, maybe a staff is doing all sorts of things and all of that. So I mean, technology would help curb a lot of excesses.  And they're not able to keep, especially for people that are into retailing, right? They're not able to keep stock of inventory. I had an older sister that had a massive portrait in just massive poetry.  They do all sorts of things. They would bury eggs inside this or so. Those kinds of businesses, do you think technology can help them? Especially like maybe farmers, people in the agricultural chain, do you think technology can help? Are there solutions for them? Absolutely, absolutely. There's actually a solution for, ah, I think it's livestock, not poetry. She's my friend, right? And I don't know if it's okay to mention her name, but I'm even, her name's Adese. Farm speak, yeah, that's the name of her business. She has a, she has an app that you know, I'm trying to remember the details, but I know it does something around measuring literally everything that is needed around the livestock farming, from what they should be eating, the quantity they need to be eating, to the temperature where they are staying. She has that tool that measures all of that, and it is specifically for people in the agricultural space. And I know that as the last time we spoke, she was looking at expanding it to actually accommodate all that kind of agricultural practices. So, and that's just one. I know there are others, right? So this, and I know that she even has some, you know, agreements with collaboration with the state government at the moment. So these things are there. And to be honest, it's going to help because a lot of agricultural people, that's one of their major concerns. That's honestly speaking. And you lose a lot of their harvest and all of that. Go ahead. Even not even just stealing a loan. Even, you know, in terms of, for example, their animals dying because the temperature is nowhere it should be. There are so many, I mean, agricultural space is really the very dynamic space where anything can literally happen, right? And technology is really changing the game in agriculture.  Exactly. And that that are really changing the game. And we just need to be more intentionally about adopting them and really now going to the grassroot farmers. Because I mean, at the moment, many of, you know, the farm produce and all of that still come from that end. So really going down. I mean, it's just what it is. The things that are wasting can be prevented. But as with every other industry in Nigeria, we're working progress. We're working progress. So it's interesting. It's interesting. So for smaller businesses that are like, would I call them now? Because sometimes you see great business presence on Instagram, you see all of those things. And then you probably chat them up. First of all, response time is horrible. You know, and all of that. I mean, like, literally, how do you how do you advise those kind of businesses for their CRM tools? What kind of tools do they do? Because I mean, you send a DM and it's taking forever to the person is not even responding, right? You call maybe they eventually peak and it's taking days and all of those things. And these things are not really great for businesses, right? And that's why me, I'm still a physical store person. My older sister is the one that she can live and breathe online shopping. She doesn't need to go anywhere right now. One of her products is stock. She has begged me now to whatever, to whatever check because she's calling them, they're not picking their calls. But I mean, these are the things we're here now. A lot of people are embracing a lot more online shopping online, all of those things. So how do you tell a small business that says, you know what, I want you to grow a sustainable business for your customer relationship management process is quite, what's it called, weak? How do you help those kind of businesses, you know, to help get better customer engagement? Okay, so the first thing is just leverage, you know, automated messaging at the basic level, right? That really just tells people, based on maybe setting questions, they ask, oh, hi, we're not here now at that basic level. We'll be back in XYZ time, right? So that's really like the first layer of that. So across each of the social media platforms, whether it's Instagram, WhatsApp, just have that layer of so people don't feel like, you know, nobody's attending to me, right? I think that's one. The next thing also will now be graduating from that to, I mean, for those who can, to having like a chatbot that really just engages, right? So that's, I mean, that might not be something. He's the shant's boss. Yeah, that's why I said that. He actually does help. I know he helps. Nobody's arguing with you people. Yeah. No, but I get right, I get not everybody can just wake up and say, I'm ready for that kind of, you know, investment, right? So just have that basic, you know, response and then be able to, I mean, as, as a, as a practice, right? Do the best you can to convert your customers from WhatsApp, Instagram to having their data stored, right? So just having whatever to you eventually set to learn, just make sure that you have your data stored properly as that, that's just it basically because now the reason why I'm saying that is some people really just engage with customers, they send them the response, they ship the product out and that's it and they leave those data in those, in all of. So you have data in Instagram, you have data in Facebook, you have data on WhatsApp. Exactly. So that's just another basic level. I mean, that might not completely solve the issue of delayed response time. I think I've mentioned what can work at the barest minimum, but have making sure that you are galvanizing all those data into, if it's a mailing list, you want to convert them to fine and good, whatever system, just make sure that, you know, you're storing the data and you're keeping the communication lines open because you can't be sending, hi, we've not heard from you on WhatsApp to everybody sending you DMs. You can't also do that on Instagram except of course maybe you have those three customers or something like that, right? So there's a level where you will be like, oh, if it is to have, oh, even if it's bulk SMS, we can send it to them.  So beyond, you know, what, I mean, the social media space is, in fact, between, I think 2020, 2020, we grew by about 600 billion, that's 600 or 300 billion, globally, right, dollars globally, and just shows you how much people are shopping online, online platforms, right? So it just means that there's a lot of market there, but you don't want to be caught just responding to DMs and that's all and you don't have the record of your customers outside all of the social media platforms that you're responding to them. Absolutely. Makes sense. Makes sense because again, remember when WhatsApp was down, Instagram was down. So it brings me to, you know, as we are trying to wrap up now, how important is every business owning a website, like especially a business that want to be there for a good number of years, right? How important is that owning that your own website? Extremely important. Extremely important. Like it's something that the moment you start generating revenue, start thinking about it. I really don't care what you're doing, just start thinking about it, right? Because even if you cannot do it immediately, make sure it is in your plan. Over the next six months, we're going to have the website. Just like you said, if you're not interested in being there for a long time, then you might not need to consider it. But if you are, then it's just, it's just the right thing to do. Exactly. Awesome. Okay, so I think NJ, but you see, the challenge that I have with the websites, I'm coming back again. How do we start to create real affordable solutions? Genestown. I might be able to afford a website to be built for a millionaire, but there's a small business out there that needs a website, but they cannot even afford to pay 100,000 or Genestown, I'm saying. So I believe in practicality. I work with people's budget, right? And I believe that every small business should be treated with its unique strength. If we truly want to solve the problem, I am very passionate about small businesses. So if we really want to solve the problem of small businesses, we must meet them at their level, right? So how do we begin to bring these tech solutions at that level? Like create it also with a complete package. So we help you build a website, do this, do that, you know, just within your budget. And what would that budget look like? That's a very, that's a very, what's the word now, a very compounding question. But let me take Eduardo to building, you know, affordable solutions. So this is not necessarily their own websites, but they can actually be hosted on a third party platform. So that's an option that can be explored. And at the moment in Nigeria, we have organizations and, you know, tech companies that actually offer that. So that's one level, right? So that's the first thing. And then, yeah, that's really the first thing. After that, you're not looking at there. Can you maybe get a developer that can actually work with you and you guys can reach, you know, a consensus, right? That's another way to look at it. So that's really another way to look at it. Yeah, I think those are two major things. So at the first level, you might want to start with what are those third party platforms that allow me sort of host like so you almost like you have a shop in their shop. Yeah, and they are quite a lot. Yes, they are quite a lot. Yes. Over the years, I feel like solutions have that. And that's one of the things that technology has done. Technology has opened up the space for everybody. Like you have it, you have, you know how to do it, come and do it, do it, let's see. And once you do it, and yours is better than what is existing, who is not ready to jump on that? There are a lot of free websites, people hosting third party and all that. So there, there have been various avenues. The one we were talking about earlier, I'm not going to mention the name, but the one we were talking about earlier, it's that product, although it's not well known in Nigeria, what has become is at the top. But when it comes to pricing, it's so much lower. It's so ridiculous that sometimes when we want to sell it as a company, we are free to sell it because the clients will just look at it and be like, are you sure it can deliver what I want? And you're like, yes, even more than the big ones that you already know. So a lot more people, a lot more solutions and a lot more even technology companies are producing indigenous solutions. I feel like that's the best way to go because indigenous solutions means that it caters exactly to our environment. And what is within our environment, so it's not just pricing. You're looking at the environment because you use some of these products, it's produced maybe in China, in some of Asia and America and what have you. And they are features that do not really... Don't, you're looking at it and you have to almost ask, okay, do you know what, take out this future. Does it help with the cost? Because even our technology at this rate does not even support some of those features. But I think we've had a fantastic time. Thank you, Therese there. Thank you for having me. Thank you NJ. By the way, we're all black in today. Before we go, I'm sure you follow us across all our social media handles at Wayshoe Africa. You can interact with us further, drop your comment. And most importantly, follow all the engagements on social media, like share and invite your families and friends to watch and follow the conversation. Now if you missed today's quote, here it is again. It says technology adoption is a contributor to business growth to save costs, reduce effort and get more customers. This was one of those. So we'll see you guys on Monday at 8 p.m. As we bring another great conversation to your screen.