What's up? Good evening. I want to do a brief kind of chat video about About what it's like to be a minor celebrity on YouTube I know that's a weird thing to say and I'm not really talking about the celebrity status. I'm more talking about How did I get where I am? What are my recommendations for people who want to start making videos or have some kind of presence online? And my general recommendation, I mean they're not just if you want to be an easel up I actually read something the other day that Like kids nowadays their biggest goal is usually like being famous on the internet. Please. That's depressing. That's sad But I will give you some recommendations just general behaviors that will make You know making videos or probably other stuff in life a little easier for you So I'll tell you my story or at least parts of my story Now here's the first thing I'm in my office. This is where I record all of my videos I want you to look at my desk. Okay now the reason I show you my desk.  I don't know like technology stuff That they will have a set of they will have a fancy studio with you know Padded walls all over the place. This room has terrible acoustics. Mind you. They will have seven monitors I just have one. Okay, they will have a huge sound system They'll have microphones dangling from the the ceiling and the walls and all this kind of stuff They'll have all this acoustic stuff. I don't have any of that I've never had any of that and the first thing I want to be clear about is that if you Want to do stuff on the internet whatever they that might be you do not need a fancy studio You know what you need at the very most This is the only thing I I think was a Solid investment that definitely was worth the money and that is a microphone. Okay good a good Microphone that's a good quality. You might already have one laying around the house This is one of these blue yeti ones I think they were just really shilled on YouTube the time when I was looking for one So, you know, I ended up getting them. I have no preference for this particular brand But although they accidentally sent me to so I actually have two one at the office and one here so That is so that I think is all I really need to start my YouTube channel everything else Was sort of I don't know you just sort of make do with what you have in fact Let me show you while I'm on it So this is my selfie stick This is what I record on my videos on this selfie stick, which is broken I probably bought this thing for like five bucks, you know on eBay or something like that This selfie stick has probably earned me like thousands of dollars I don't I don't on YouTube now that I think about it It's one of the best investments ever But it's broken as you saw I duck taped it because like one of the little padding things fell off and It started getting to the point where the phone would always shake when I was walking with it So I taped a bunch of dryer lint on it. That's my idea. That is the production quality here on this channel Now I don't say that as some kind of weird flex. I say that in the sense that People who are thinking about I don't know having a public presence on the internet They think way too hard about it because they see people with the fancy studios with fancy $500 gimbals and go pros and stuff like that and they're like, oh, I need that I need that to be You know internet famous or something like that, you know Everything in my setup is super cheap even my computer is like a hundred bucks web cam is like 30 bucks Something like that. And when I first started my channel, by the way, this is first off as I said This is just my real-life office in my house. It doesn't have super great acoustics It's pretty pretty echoey as you can hear But I started in conditions that were even worse when I started My channel when I was living in a very small apartment in Arizona In fact, it was probably barely bigger than this room if at all or it really it was like really long But it was like super skinny. It was so annoying But I lived in this duplex when I I recorded some of my First initial videos that really took my channel off in that crummy apartment where the walls were paper thin And if my the people who lived in the duplex the other part of the duplex walk by they could hear They could hear me ranting at my computer about Linux or something like that. In fact, I remember recording One of the videos that basically made my channel. Okay, was this video I put out that was like how to pick a Linux distro stop thinking and that got that was like my first video to hit 100,000 views it got really famous most of my subscribers at the beginning of my channel came from that video It's the one with Varg's face on it and then some logos for Linux distros I recorded that in that apartment in my bathroom that was off to the side because it had slightly better acoustics And I was worried that during the 10 15 minutes It took to record that audio for that that someone would walk by and I'd sound really weird just like yelling at my microphone In my bathroom because you literally there you could literally they were paper thin you could hear right there It was so awkward, but I did it and it doesn't sound like I recorded it in a bathroom either Now what I'm trying to say is stop making reasons for you do not need fancy equipment You don't need anything fancy you can you can do it with what you have if you find yourself constantly trying to rationalize like oh Why I need this or that you probably are just making excuses because you're nervous about doing it Okay, so just go ahead and do it you're gonna be fine I if you saw again, this is all I got Okay, additionally, so here's another important thing. This is relevant. Okay, so on one side You don't need fancy equipment. You also don't need fancy Video making techniques frankly people will sometimes ask me Luke How do you do your video editing and I'm always confused by that kind of question because does it look like I do video editing? Are there things flying across the screen? Most videos I don't even have cuts like I will just get in front of my phone Turn on my or you know turn on my screencast on my computer and I will just record and go and that's it And if I make a mistake if I make a big mistake that I don't want being on the internet I'll just record it again. I don't even care enough to edit it at the very most Yeah at the very most I might If I want to add something on the end I'll just re-record something and then use FF impact to join the videos, but I don't do video editing now I used to some of my first videos I did do video editing in but my recommendation is Now I'm not against video editing. I am against video editing for myself. It's a personal preference I don't think I'm not particularly good at it And I don't think that it detracts from the realness of my videos I like my videos being real and grainy and and no cuts no fanciness just I don't know real life stuff But I'm also bad at video editing like not in the sense I mean really in the sense that it takes me a lot of time to do stuff in a video editor I never really you know I sort of started learning it when I started my YouTube channel But you know I remember that video I mentioned a second ago about choosing a Linux distro I did do video editing on that and that's a 10 15-minute video that took probably a week for me to edit because I was just so bad at it So here's my recommendation. You don't need to do video editing if you really don't like it My I guess what I would say is it's best to get in a position where you are most comfortable in Doing whatever you're doing in making quote-unquote content.   It's just just the most Orwellian thing ever So But what I'm what I'm trying to say is there are people like me who are sort of against video editing Just because I'm not so good at it. So it's easier for me It's more of my style just to flip it on do a really real shot and that's it I'm not I'm not dabbing on people who do do video editing I think that video editing is very nice. It can make some funny moments. It can do some great things And really make your videos look professional, but I'm just trying to say you don't need to do it You absolutely don't need to do it. You just need to get in the style You just need to sort of find what works. Okay when I started my channel I did not do videos like this when I was just talking to a camera not just because I didn't have a selfie stick But I it did never occurred to me just to do this This is like the easiest way to record videos and it is also usually the video that I don't know gets the most responses people just Realistically people on the internet sometimes just want someone to talk at them or talk or have the idea that they're talking with them You know something like that.  The reality is it's like too real So I don't do video editing but sometimes I write things on a notepad because I know I'm gonna forget if I'm just rambling about something But so another super important point. Okay. This is this is one that people ask me about all the time. Okay in real life I get less questions about this You know by email, but in real life someone every once in a while someone will talk to me Who's not necessarily interested in Linux or something or any of the content that I put up on my channel But they'll ask me You know, I'm thinking about making a YouTube channel, but I don't see any YouTube I like I don't think there's a market for what I'm doing. You know, I'm interested in this. Oh, I'm interested in Some theoretical physics issue. I'm interested in religion. I'm interested in Reviewing this kind of product or something like that and I don't see any of that on YouTube So I don't think there's a market for it. That is exactly the opposite mindset that you should have I will tell you Okay, so I started my channel at the very end of 2016 I guess and I will tell you back then YouTube especially technology YouTube looked a lot different and I'm sort of subtly saying That I had an effect on it a very tangible effect because nowadays you finding a channel that does Linux dot file Configuration and arch Linux and stuff like that.  You see them everywhere But before my channel, it was really rare to find that kind of stuff I mean you would find like maybe a guy with a thousand Subscribers who used arch Linux. He wouldn't really talk about it He'd just be like, oh, I downloaded this and you know, look at that like there were very few Instructionals there were very few people Reviewing programs really the only one was got Bledu who's a channel that I always usually Say that he was one of my influences because he has the same mindset as me. He just turns on his computer He starts recording. He films a screencast. It's super real. That's it He does basically the same kind of stuff that I do but he does Maybe more minor programs that he just reviews. I don't know if he even uses all of them And he also curses all the time. This is a Christian channel We know curse but And that and Chris Acapinti. He sort of he's been on YouTube for a while and he's done similar stuff on more shell scripting But in general, there are lots of channels that I'm not I'm not saying are copycats of me But I'm saying like when you have your own thing that you want to run with and when I was you know I started making my kind of content because I started using arch Linux and I started doing all this new stuff and Oh, I just learned how to do this. Let me do a video about it I was I realized I was creating a market for that kind of stuff. There are a lot of people who are like, oh, this Inspires me to do this and that now. I'm interested in it now. I'm open to seeing other people talk about it so that that's the kind of thing that happened and Really how I took it Especially with like memes and stuff. I know this is sort of a cringe thing. I mean, I'm an old boomer I don't care about being cringe But one thing in particular is that when I started my channel, I would intentionally do this I would have highly analytical Educational content and then I just throw extremely indulgent memes and everything I would have, you know in the videos that I would edit I'd have memes slide shows and stuff like that While I'd have a totally deadpan voice. I would have the most ridiculous thumbnails Just like any kind of thing that I was just Like self-saturizing, you know clickbait, I guess is a way to way to think about it And what happened is like there's so many people now on YouTube who do Linux stuff who think it's hilarious Like all these Linux memes are hilarious and they run with them to me They're all well at least the ones that are dead are cringe to me. There was a period I don't know if I told you guys this that I banned the word bloat on my channel because it was like a year after that Meme has totally gone sour. Like I'm sorry. I'm sick of people calling literally everything bloat There's another one I banned on my my channel at some point. I forget what it was But I think I unbanned them eventually, but There are just some I don't know anyway What I'm trying to say is when you come to if you have an idea of what you want to do on YouTube As long as it's something that you could imagine someone Possibly being interested like if people are interested in it in real life They will be interested in it on YouTube So if you can think of a good medium to do that that is gonna work that's gonna you will have people viewing it It might be hard to catch on initially, but once it's there you will have a market. That's gonna work Let me check my note card one more time. Okay. Yeah, I basically said my last point already But the recurring theme is just be real like if you want to to make a channel Yeah, there are some people who have fancy production value and stuff like that. I don't happen to do that It's a little try hard. I you know, maybe I've added a little flourishes to my channel Now I have like a web, you know a face of my or a webcam of my face and some of my screencast and stuff like that But what I'm trying to say is just do it.  It would make no sense a brand is something you build over time The jokes that have come with this channel and the things that I've done Those are something that come from real events and what I'm telling you is be real Production value doesn't always matter. It's good. It's nice. I'm not knocking it But it you don't need to worry about it as much. You don't need to worry about having expensive gear You don't need to worry if you know, you don't feel like there's This niche is already on YouTube That's better for it not to be on YouTube because that means you're you'll be a trailblazer One final note that I will say and I think this is sort of common knowledge among people who I guess Know how that YouTube system works nowadays. It is important if you want to sort of take off on YouTube It it usually what makes that happen is not even consistent putting out videos every single day That does help a whole lot with your viewership on those days But the real way to take off on YouTube is to have one or two videos that go really really big and that means a video That is general purpose that a normie could watch and they will enjoy and think is funny for my channel I think I mentioned the how to choose a Linux distro stop thinking the one with Varg on the thumbnail That is one of the videos that made my channel. It was anyone who knew anything about Linux could watch it It was funny. It had memes in it. It had stuff like that and the other one that made my channel was Why I don't you why I? Hate using Apple or Mac anything or something like that That's an even more general category video because you don't even have to be a Linux user to use that Or to watch that so those are the videos if you look at my analytics that Originally made got me the subscribers that I have I mean not actually probably most of them have come later than that But that initial push from me being a channel of like a hundred to me being a channel of several thousands That was it that and so the important thing if you really want to get big is have General you know a couple videos that are general purpose that lots of people could watch but they don't have to be try hard They don't have to you don't need a studio. You can be like me. You can record in your bathroom Oh, I actually remember that bathroom was terrible when I moved in there. Okay, this is disgusting But I'll tell you it anyway when I moved in there They had cleaned up the apartment and I think they had moved in a new toilet But they hadn't bolted the toilet down and I didn't realize this none They hadn't realized it and I didn't realize it for a while, but basically I'm not even going to describe Exactly what it was like, but over time it started to stink and I had to figure out what that was and I realized They had not Bolted the toilet down correctly that that's anyway. That is where I recorded my The video that made my youtube channel, so That is that really gonna be the way I end this video whenever Shoot. All right, that's it. See you next time


Hallo, alle. Kan anyone hear me? Yes, it's from everybody. Yes. Very good, very good. OK, then. Let's go ahead. Today we are talking about, we have a one hour session on DHS2 Research. And let me please share a screen. Ah, you cannot start sharing while the other participant is sharing. Oh, I'll stop sharing that now. Yeah. OK. I am now sharing a screen. No? Try now. No, I try. Yes, let me see with my PowerPoint. Yes, can you see me now? No, yeah. Do you want to try again for me? Not seeing you, Jørn. Clicking on share screen. Invisible. Always invisible. Ah, I'm clicking on the share screen feature. OK, what do you see? I see probably your screen or something. Now we have an expert here. So you should have a window with lots of, with all the drill windows. There we go. Kan du se me now? Kan, indiit. OK. Well, we have some technicalities, but from the beginning. This is, this is, can you not see everything? You are visible, Jørn. That's very, very, very fine. So today's session is about research on DHS2 and health information systems. Vi har en forpresentasjon fra typisk forskjell, eller typisk forskjell fra DHS2-verden. Hva er topikk? Hvordan turner vi normally DHS-projekt og forskjell til forskjell? Det er topikk av today's session. Og hvordan vi kan bestudje DHS2 og hans aktie og effekt. Så problemet er ofentlig at... Det er svært å se, hva er data, hvordan vi kan ta det til forskjell. Og alle dette er en part av en projekte til å developke forskjell og forskjell. På veldig mange av DHS2 og hans forskjell og projekte. Vi kaller det DHS2 og hans evolvøs og dokumentasjon projekte. Vi kaller det heritetsprojekt. Det er å dokumentere hvordan vi er nå og hvordan vi går og hvordan vi har vært. Mange master og PhD-studiene har gjort forskjell i DHS2 og hans ekosystem. Fjellverket har vært kallert i mange løde og middelkommende lander. Og det som er ofentlig svært er å turnere dette... ... kjellverket og fjellstudiene til forskjell. Hva er forskjell og projekte i disse cases? Og hvordan du dokumenter og lærer det med disse aktiviteter? Hvis det er fjellverket i Mozambik, Indonesia, Indien og Norge. Hvordan lører vi forskjell og publikere data fra disse projekter? Det er å bli et forskjellartikel. Når vi prøver å kjenne forskjell, hva vil vi finne ut? Hva er denne case-narrativene og forskjellperspektivet? Hva er det som er... ... at vi turner everything into something that can be written up... ... as research in the academic journal or conference? Det er forskjellperspektivet. Det er sometimes important for det å ha en analytisk framerik. Det er noe teori å bruke, etc. Så de er de ting vi skal diskutere i dag. Og i denne projekten vi kaller heritage-projekt, eller dokumentasjon-projekt. I dag har vi 4 præsentasjoner. Det er for eksempel case studies, case study research. Først ut er implementasjonen av DITRAs 2 for immunisasjoner i Indonesien. En problem her er hvordan du implementer systemet når du har loktat... ... og ikke er able to move on. Data use and DITRAs 2s for data use in Mozambik. Og det tørre er dokumentasjonen av data handling... ... og DITRAs 2s i Odessa, India. Og finally, there will be a presentation on the COVID-19 responses in Norway. Så, wouldn't I suggest that a police and Google is turning on their screen sharing... ... and start presenting and I will then stop share. Like this. Please take over Indonesia team. OK, thank you, Jørn. I'm trying to share my screen here. OK, can everyone see my screen? Yes, go ahead. OK. OK, thank you for the time. Yes, as Jørn has introduced, so our title... ... we pick a little bit different title than what Jørn has said. So this title is Information Systems Action Research in COVID-19 Time. This is our experience of implementing DHS2 for immunisation in Indonesia. And in this session we would like to present how we navigate our action research... ... in COVID-time and how this experience may contribute to DHS2 research landscape. Here I have my partner, Gordian Sanjaya from Universitaske Gemede. Or UGM, who has been a partner of DHS2 implementation in Indonesia since 2011. So, yeah, next. OK. So the immunisation programme of the Indonesia Ministry of Health... ... has been using Excel data sheets for data collection and the management of... ... its aggregate immunisation data for the last decades. And this has potential serious flaws to the data quality and the management. Derfor, the immunisation programme wishes to shift to DHS2... ... which has been used by the Ministry of Health to integrate data. And then also we have a One Health Data Policy in Indonesia... ... using the same platform, which is DHS2. So what we're doing here is we are standardising reporting form... ... and then we're aiming for a longer term integrated data warehouse. One of the key activities that we're doing is capacity building. Because as you can see here, we want to move from Excel into DHS2. And then from there we want them to be able to use the test boards... ... which is standard test boards. And also to improve their data quality and also assisting their monitoring programme. So this capacity building part is actually a part of my PhD research project... ... or more focus of my PhD research project. And we implement this project following an action research cycle. So this is the timeline. We started our project for this immunisation programme late in 2019. We started with assessment and from the assessment result... ... we decided to start by doing a PAL project in Dikai Jakarta province... ... which is where the country capital is lying now. And no, not end. But during the process the COVID-19 pandemic started to affect the country. We started to report our first cases. And then the country started to enact several local governments... ... and started to enact large-scale social restrictions. It's very mouthful. But this is not the lockdown, but still it restricts a lot of travel... ... from in and out of the country and also domestically. So because we have team members in three cities in Oslo, Norway... ... and also in Jakarta, Indonesia and Yogyakarta, Indonesia... ... we hardly seen each other since the start of the pandemic. So we started to pivot our strategy into online action... ... which includes online planning, online meeting and online training. And also here as you can see we also experienced management rotation in May. And then to date we have tested some of our instructional design... ... speaking about capacity building to the ballot province two days ago. So although this ballot project started several months ago... ... but just two days ago we had this testing. And then we will start doing our training for the trainer tomorrow... ... using the new style of capacity building, which is online, fully online. So to date our intervention employs strategies that are adaptive... ... to the changes caused by the pandemic. And this includes a research project management strategy... ... where we have a couple of weekly or bivigly online meetings via Zoom... ... and we are networking and collaborating together... ... in document development maximising the use of Google Drive. And also after the pilot project we are implementing a cascade training model. That's why we're doing the training for the trainer tomorrow, 25th of September. And then what's so specific about this project... ... is that we are closely collaborating with MOH. So our MOH counterpart is highly involved in this project. All the planning and all the implementation, we are involving them. And they are very concerned with all this project and also excited... ... because this is very new to them, but they have a big hope for this project too. And then also instead of doing the training fully synchronised... ... in a fully synchronised session, we are setting up a full LMS... ... using a model learning management system. So we have pre-recorded videos for all the materials that we are going to deliver... ... to our participants. And also we have all different activities to enrich our capacity building... ... which includes assignment slides, quizzes, etc. And these quizzes are supposed to help us... ... looking at which participants are the potential trainer for the next trainings. Her har vi gjort en matriculos planing... ... for both asynchronous and synchronisation... ... for we are going to train them in a very limited time. We don't want to mess with the schedule... ... because they are already tired with all of these online meetings every day. So we are supporting through WhatsApp Group. Also we have evaluation strategies through interview surveys... ... that you can see here. And then lastly, sorry. And then lastly, we have some issues that we are considering. So to some extent, managing an online project might not be a unique experience. Except that now this is our only option. It is imperative that we are using this strategy. And most people in the project are working at home... ... which gives additional challenges. Some people are really forced to do this. So maybe they don't really like talking through a laptop... ... or now they have to do it. So here in the research aspect... ... we are also challenging existing institution of what we call traditional implementation. And there are several familiar aspects to our people... ... in the implementation that change. For example, per GM, they cannot get it anymore... ... because they are not traveling anywhere. And then also social interaction with peers. It's lost now. Or in different way. And then accountability partners, face-to-face discussion. And now they have to have their kids running around them... ... while they are trying to even enter a Zoom meeting or share their screen... ... like what I experienced. And we hope through this research we would contribute to at least two things. First, the practice through the notion of adaptive project management. And the second, the methods of action research... ... with the notion of adaptive action research. Thank you. Thank you, Jørn. I'm returning this to you. Very good. And now... ... next one takes over. Nilsa and Seferino. Yes. Yes. Go ahead, Nilsa. Share. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for the time. Jeg tror alle kan se min screen nå. Perfekt. Ja. Jeg starter med å presentere teamen som er her med meg. Jeg er Nilsa Kvalensen. Jeg er med Seferino Solgena og Emilio Moss. Vi er fra Universitet Fidoar-Mundlana. Jeg er en av de PhD-studiene som er interessert i dette projekte. Så... Jeg starter med å presentere oss et sted... ... for å gi meg en brev om hva vi har gjort over de seneste 2 år. Så vår projekte i Mozambik har startet rundt 2.000. Og det startet i tre proverter. Og det var i den momenten... ... med den nødvendigheten, også med den PhD-programmet i Norway. Vi hadde forskere som var med i dette. Og projekten startet, men det var veldig... ... holdt opp, holdt opp. Og i 2016 var DHS-2 nødvendigheten nødvendig. Og i andre progrømmer, og det er stille... ... i veldig veldig veldig veldig veldig veldig veldig veldig veldig. Og det er stille som i veldig veldig veldig veldig veldig veldig veldig. Vi hadde mange PhD-studiene, og vi har forskere som var... ... med masterprogrammet vi startet i dette. Informatiske og mediske masterprogrammet. Vi har informatiske og mediske masterprogrammet vi startet i dette. Dette to mange dekker vi primerlig implementerte DHS-2 i høvken. Og vi har vært for å gjøre andre domene i vores og sanitariet i kultur og medis. Vi har gjort forskjellens fjell i disse seneste år. Vi gjorde to i de seneste to år, og vi har vært for i de siste progrømmer... for in the south and to in the north, so that we could evaluate what's the stage and what needs to be improved during this implementation. We visited as well 12 districts and several facilities and what was one of the major aspects that we found out during these visits that we did was related with the data use. We noticed that data use, data is being used and this data comes from GHS actually, but what it's not being used fully, used, is related with analytics and dashboard. So I move to the next slide where I show some of the innovative process that we are finding during this project that we are conversing at the moment. We found out that some of the practices that are being implemented by the ministry like routine and statistical meetings and different discussions involving several actors are indeed helping or supporting this institutionalization of the GHS in Mozambique. And other aspects that we found out is that actually they are very much interested in using these systems in the daily routines. For instance, we have seen in several meetings that they are using the data that comes from the GHS to monitor the activities from different facilities using indicators that are based in their population. But this leads to one of the aspects that actually is constraining somehow, because we have data from the government that brings out the population from the different levels of administrative levels. And we have this ambiguity on which population data we have to implement in that sense, so that we can calculate properly the indicators that will help this management to happen adequately. So in that sense, we still have parallel systems working on and working with paper and Excel, and also this comes with some technical issues that the users used to have relayed in relation with the technical support that is provided. Even though we have this capacity building happening, it's still not enough to support all the teams that are national wide. And we found out also the limitations are in relation with the GHS to implementations related with the use itself. For instance, in terms of visualization and that it's not that flexible and fit to use cases, in terms of functionalities that need to be there, such for instance the offline features that help the management manager to use the system while they are not online. This question, this issue in relation with the facility indicators versus the facility population that we have to deal with. And also some other issues that are related with customization in terms of dashboards and scorecards. We see that the people are using data and this data comes from the data storage that is the GHS, how it is being used now. And they bring this data to other systems that they use in parallel to make the outputs. And this should be addressed somehow. We see in this process different challenges. We have teams that are working with development innovation. Some teams that are working with support and capacity building. And we see also this involvement, these two groups of people interact while they are in the field and getting evidence. So we are also thinking on how to bridge this, all these outcomes into the research, how to address this and perhaps using this action research models to move forward. And some reflections that we are coming up with are related with how we can incorporate social approaches that bring out this together, the social context. And get it together in relation with the technical design that the GHS has following the last years. And also, how can we come up with reducing these limitations, technical limitations, by going through the different ups that are being developed in other countries that can be integrated with the GHS as it is now. And we think that we can do this by involving master students and other PhD students in research. And also these getting involved also in support, the teams that are in the field. So I rest and thank you for the time and your attention. Jørg, I give it back to you please. I stop sharing. Very good, very good. Thank you very much. And now we move to India. I don't know man. Yes, I am just. Go ahead please. Yeah, is it visible? Yes, yes, clear and fine. Okay. Thank you, Johan and everyone. So, I present the research study we've done in India on one of the old DHS to implementation states.  So this is where India started DHS too much earlier than there was DHS 2 available. So it was even when it was 1.3, that's where it started. So Orissa is one of the states which adopted DHS 2 as the statewide system in 2008. So this study that we've done in Orissa is in 2018-19. That's when we've done. So this is one of the DHS states where we've tried to, the reason for doing this was to understand what are the sustainability qualifiers for these decentralized public health systems. So what makes these systems work? Because it sustained itself for over 12 years on its own without any support from outside. So what is it that makes the system sustainable? So, and this is where Orissa is on the map. And these are the partners involved in the study we did out of 30 districts. We took nine districts to work with closely. So there was Department of Health of the state of Orissa. From the national level we took the National Health System Resource Centre, which is one of the think tanks at the national level to support the governments on health. And there's Hisp India, which is one of the Hisp nodes in India. And at UIO, from the department, we had Anna, who was there, who's been active part of the study. And we had all our roles and contributions. So in the district level study, we've just talked to health workers, to data entry staff, to managers of health, to bureaucrats, and all the IT staff, which is at odd level. So, you know, decentralized system there at the vision level is a health center where there's a health worker, then coming above, which is block, which is for about 50,000 population. Then there is just the district. And then there's, and then the state. So that's the level. And then we've done individual interviews. We've had focus group discussions. We've been part of observing people's work, a following demo in the meetings. And of course, there's a whole lot of secondary data, which was lot of reports, meetings, minutes, et cetera. So this has been our data sources. So after all for the research, getting the data together. So we identified five themes under which we could, which helped us analyze and understand the findings emerging. The themes we identified was, one was the process of data validation, which also then tells us also about the institutionalization process of, let's say, HS2 in this. Then there's a process of capacity building, process of participation, process of data ownership and local action and process of local practices. And these processes, when I say, these are what we are all, I mean, just to go back to the research question, which is on the sustainability qualifiers. So this is one of our meetings in the health center. This is what our health center looks like. This is maybe one chair and a table and then there is this common room, everyone sitting on the floor to discuss. And this is the two health workers here. So for her, it was that, you know, the process of, let's say the data validation. So it was not only just the data which gets reported. They initiated the process at the village level. The village owns the data which is being reported for that village. So they had started a process of a village meeting every fall, where the health worker would bring in the data, which she is going to be reporting upwards and discuss it with, let's say, they have a village health committee there to make sure that whatever is data published from the village, everyone owns it. So, I mean, then to ask that, is it not too much? Are you not, isn't it too much of data? But then she says, in a village, they're not more than five to six pregnant women in a month. And they're not more than 10 children who are there for vaccinations. So it's not like too much of data which they are having to discuss. So the general, what we have in mind that this is so much data, how are they going to be working with. So this was to understand the process of institutionalization. Then there was this process of capacity building, which was that, you know, when there's a data manager who knows DHS too, but then he gets transferred out or leaves the job. What happens to the next person? So they had, on their own, initiated a very interesting process where the new person who joins in at whatever level at the district at the block at the PNC, is given informal handholding training at the state, at the district, whichever is the level above wherever he's posted. So, which was, you know, without any incentive from outside, but this is something which has been ongoing there for about 10, 12 years now. It's an institutionalized process. Then there was a process of what we identified as participation. And the examples they should give us, the health workers were having to report the same data in two different data sets. And the health workers said that, you know, why can't we just report the same data in one place rather than twice? And then it was their voice, which then they discussed in their village and block level meetings. And then it went to the district guys they discussed. And then from there in a state-level meeting till, and the process voice that, you know, they rationalize the forms that, you know, one data element gets reported only once, and so the health worker is not having to report it twice. So then there was, they did, given it was a system which was more flexible and it gave people space to make changes, which also then kept space for participation. It was not just like freezing, frozen in one place. Then we identified the process of data ownership. So this is one of the block person here. She told that, you know, when she was looking at, when she was to confirm the data and validating the data for anti-natal and IPN, she found that there was a data for severe anemia cases, and she thought that it was something wrong. Why do we have severe anemia cases? And she thought in case it was a validation error, typo error, et cetera, when all was checked. Having a meeting with the Ashas, who's a community health worker and A&M, which is the health worker, that, you know, what's wrong. And then to realize that there were actually cases of severe anemia who tested. And then the action there was that, you know, maybe the, because when you start to have IFA tablets, the first reaction is constipation and then a lot of time women discontinue that. And then here was Ashas that started with OK, in terms of mobilization as a community health worker. She would ensure personally that, you know, the IFA tablets are given.  So that, you know, so that, that was also that, you know, if it was severe anemia cases in my district, so it's not about someone just changing the data just to make sure it doesn't look bad on the, it was also taking ownership of what data it is, and then action locally. And then this is the health worker who had her tab, who had all kind of registers and forms, which she had to fill in. There was a template which the government had given her to report. And then she still, of course, felt that the paper and her register was far more easier for her to manage. She could underline, she would mark, she could block the paper where she needs to come back to and allowed her to do much, many more things than just what a few, let's say tab would do, what technology is allowed me to do. So, I mean, yeah, so this was her viewpoint that, you know, whatever locally works is much better than rather than to give care, I should not be dependent on a tablet to show me the data. I mean, I should be able to do it in my own way. Yeah, and then from the research outputs we've had this. So there's the report we've submitted to the government with findings for the follow policy here. Then there's a report which was at UIO, which was submitted by Spindia, which was like what Jons heritage project is, the research project, which is to take the case study of what's going on with these, understand sustainability qualifiers. So the we've recently submitted one paper for IFIP per 2020 conference, which is on identifying the, I mean, the same research question, or such and the beauty qualifiers and the two research papers in pipeline. And then there is for this course at UIO, which is on ICTs for development, and then you would develop the use of the sake study for the course. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. I hope I'm not cross my time limit. Thank you. I'll stop to share, Jan. Thank you very much, Arunima, and we move over to the Norwegians. Is it Rangnil, or is it Johan first? Anyway, one of them. Yes, let's just have a year and turn off the sound. Yes, so this is Johan Sabo talking. I also have Rangnil Bassa Gunnarsen with me on this presentation. So our part of this is to fold motivation. First is to show us an example of research we do more of an international consortium with various partners. And to highlight the empirical base base research from Norway, Norway as a case. So this project is a newly started research project looking at emergency response to the COVID-19 pandemic. And its aim is to gather experience and support countries to respond to the situation we see now of very high uncertainty and rapidly changing information needs. Not just to improve our communities ability to handle the COVID pandemic, of course, but also to learn how to do this with future disease outbreaks in mind. It's a consortium with many partners. We have the Norwegian Institute of Public Health, Eduardo Munlan University from Mozambique, Colombo University from Sri Lanka, Palestine National Institute of Public Health, University of Ghana, and then the University of Oslo here in Norway. And the primary empirical base are of course activities ongoing these countries, but we will also draw, of course, on learnings from the wider community of DHS using countries. DHS is used for COVID-19 systems in four of the countries, Mozambique, Sri Lanka, Palestine, and Norway. And we also have Ghana as a partner, where we have the ability to also evaluate another system, another technology in the Sormas. So I'll leave the word now open for Erangne to present some of the ongoing work in Norway. Thank you, Johan. I am a fairly new PhD student with the Department of Informatics at UIO, and together with other researchers. We hope to unmute and present Erangne. Can you not hear me? Yeah, you can hear me. You can hear me, Johan, as well. I can just briefly go through this. So in Norway we also have an established surveillance system in place for quite a long time, but it has been a manual for using pen and paper. That's been the level of technology. And that has worked well for a kind of disease. Hi, we can hear her. I'm spreading the small scale outbreaks, typically things like intestinal diseases, or it could be some cases of TB or something, but not much. So the challenge, of course, was this rapid spread of COVID unprecedented scale. Hello, can you hear me? Yeah, we can hear you now. Super. Thank you, Johan. I am a fairly new PhD student with the Department of Informatics at UIO, and together with other researchers, including master students, we study disease surveillance and response, the contact tracing ecosystem, and the implementation of DHIS2 as the digitalisation of contact tracing. So how does this digitalisation affects both the contact tracing process in itself, as well as all actors involved in the contact tracing process. In Norway, our municipalities, 356 in total, are responsible for contact tracing and the follow-up of infectious disease surveillance of their respective residents. Thus, the contact tracing process is decentralised. We have worked with disease surveillance in Norway for around 200 years, but have very little experience with contact tracing of infectious diseases in the numbers we have seen these past months. During the weeks of March and April, the efforts to trace positive cases of COVID-19 was under severe pressure, as you all know. And to register COVID-19 cases, contact traces used pen and paper and some after a while spread sheets. This approach was impossible to scale when the cases of COVID-19 increased. A joint force between some municipalities, the Norwegian Association of Local and Regional Authorities, the Norwegian Institute of Public Health and University of Oslo was established. No one has no previous history of using DHIS2. But during the spring of 2020, DHIS2 was introduced as a software as a service for municipalities. Today, approximately 100 municipalities are using DHIS2 for contact tracing. During a time with high uncertainty and rapidly changing information needs, the DHIS2 team has established routinely meetings with user representatives every fortnight where they discuss user participation, user involvement and user requirements. And this will be a part of our research. Thank you. Over to Johan or Jørn. Yes. Thank you. Yeah, sorry about that. We had some challenges here. We had to turn off the sound and all the laptop avoid echo. Anyway, thank you for that. I'll continue with the presentation. Yeah, it was just one slide. We'll go to the next. So the approach in this project is then to evaluate the system development cycles and provide feedback to various groups of users. The health staff users, national team around both disease surveillance and of system administration and the global developers of DHIS and associated metadata for COVID. One thing we will do is to develop an evaluation protocol tailored for DHIS2 and COVID-19, which we will make publicly available. There are existing surveillance system evaluation frameworks, but they typically focus on other things, you know, the use and the validity of the data, not so much about evolution and the ability of the systems to respond to new changes. They also include assumptions that are not really relevant in our case, such as corroborating the quality of data with other data sources. In many cases there are no other good data sources for COVID. So hopefully this project is leading to some knowledge that will be of short-term benefit for all countries in adopting systems for COVID-19, but also for a longer term for improving systems, making them resilient and responsive for meeting new diseases. Thank you. Yeah, maybe I can just continue sharing my screen to bring up the list of questions on the community of practice. And you can also use... Yeah, hello everybody. Then we have been listening to the four presentation. Here we see there are some questions. Yeah, I see we have some questions already being answered and written by Anne here. We have some questions to Apriza and Nilsa from Anki Min. Maybe you can go first, Apriza, to respond to the questions coming up here. Johan, do you see your screen with status? Okay, can I start? Okay, I'm going to read it. Hi Apriza, how many days do you have really used for the capacity-building training or training of trainer for specific project-based DHS2 and what's the recommendation duration to conduct it? So I'm not speaking about recommendation here. We are still in a trial phase, but usually in the role-out we train in three days. Three days phase-to-phase training, that's eight hours per day. But for this training we're going to do it in three days also. But every day we're training for 120 to 150 minutes. And then between days, between session, we will have a couple of days so that our participants will be able to do their assignments, for example. So the first training that we're going to do with the MOH is spread into one week with three days training and it will be around two to three hours. I hope that answers will turn into you. Johan? Ja, that's very good from the... What do you call it? I'm sorry, your... Hi, hi, noi. To interrupt again. If there's anyone who's interested in about capacity-building, please just drop me a message or anything in the COP. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, Titta. And we have another question here. I can see for Nilsa. Can you see it and can you answer? Hello, yeah. Do you hear me? Can we hear you? Yeah, sure. I just have a follow-up question for Akresa. Go ahead. So regarding... You have told us about... Thank you for your experience sharing as well as... I would like to know the rules of assignment in the training session and... What's the rules of doing assignment? Let the participant doing the assignment and with or without assignment, would it have a difference? Thank you. Yeah, thank you for your comment. So the idea behind assignment is to make sure that people... We are able to monitor the competency of the people that we're training. Because we cannot see them one by one. Then there are different ways we would like to measure the capacity or the competency that we would like them to achieve. And this is achieved through different ways. Like assignment is one of the examples. So for example, we want them to be able to make data element. For example, then the assignment would be like a screenshot of the element that they have created. And this is a proof that they are able to create that data element. But also we have other things like quizzes. And then also we are following other things like discussion, et cetera. So yeah, do that answer. Yes, thank you very much. You're welcome. Yes, Jørn, can I proceed? Yes, thank you. The question is related to how we are... He's requested to share our experience on this transition from paper-based to using DHS as a source. So we are still in the process. But we are advanced somehow because we started by creating conditions in every district. So at least every district would have a computer and connection to the internet. So the ministry has managed to implement that somewhere along the way. So that the reporting comes in paper. And we have this instituted nucleus of statistics which we have a team of one or two persons that receive all this data that is in paper-based and introduced into the computer and sends it with the internet which goes directly to the database that is in the ministry of health. But this was only possible now that we introduced the DHS too. Because previously we had initially very much issues in this process because we used to do with mobile disks and diskettes and other drives that we used before. But with DHS too, the ministry created these conditions and we then implemented this system of collecting the paper-based information, put it in the computer and send it to the internet in every districts of the country. And for those districts that doesn't have these conditions, they gather the information and go to the provincial level or the district next to it so that everyone can report. And this is done monthly after those routine meetings that I mentioned before and after the statistic meetings that they have. So they collect information, they prepare it, they validate with all the stakeholders involved in the district. They report it to the district. The district organizes these meetings, discuss the data. And these goals, two ways, goes into the DHS and which goes directly to the ministry. And the other information is discussed in terms of use so that they can decide on approaches that the district can implement themselves. So this is still a process but somehow we are trying to move forward with this. But I have here also two colleagues that maybe can add something to this process. If not, I will hand it back to you, Jørn. Fine, fine. Thank you, Nilsa. And there's a question here from Maima to Arunima. How did Udisha government receive the findings of your research when you presented to them? Please, Arunima. Hi, Maima. How did they take it? I mean, they were partners in the research. So they did come along for a lot of these interviews. Taking forward is, I mean, at some places where we say, for example, on infrastructure upgradation, where we felt that, you know, there were outdated computers where some things needed, it also added to evaluation, was they've added to their, what do you call it, the animal plants. Some of it got added there. So then they added findings on in terms of, let's say, because they, I mean, the rationalization process, the given that we, the process they had for rationalization of data were very interesting. So maybe we suggested that they could also initiate a process of data integrity audit, so that to just see how much, just to check on redundancies, what data is not needed. Also to have a more institutionalized process of untaking health workers' view on redundant data which is getting collected. So that is on board. So that they did take in. So there is a process of data integrated audit, which is in process. So that's there. Also then there was like one of, another thing what we had recommended that if they could institutionalize a way of, rather than like, I mean, this was one in 10 years process that we did, but something which could be, you know, institutionalizing, if not an outset, in their own, not to review the way it's done with the meetings, but a process of looking at what data is getting, as in research as an institutional process. Towards that they are then working with, there's an institute of public health in Odessa, and then there is also an institute of medical research, which is there. Partnership, which was established in, as part of this research. So now they are as two local partners in Odessa who are on board. And, you know, so the idea is that they should be able to make these interventions. So some of these, yes, where they could, which does not cost too much money, but it was more on making partners and taking these steps that's being taken. But I think the larger ones, which needed let's say financial investments. So those decisions would be more pending. Yeah, does it answer your question Mahima? Thank you Aronima. I think we are thrown out from this space, room or whatever it's called. Yeah, one minute. Very, very short time. One minute to have 55. Okay, thank you all presenters. I noticed one of the research questions in Indonesia. How to do fieldwork and research on Zoom or online. So that is something that we obviously have to improve on. So thank you everybody and you can continue to pose questions in that link that is shared. Thank you.


Right, well, greetings everybody and welcome back to the, well, the start of the afternoon sessions here at the Avonsook Community Convention of 2018. This panel is, it's become a kind of tradition. It started as the viewer panel, then it became beyond the viewer panel, then it became beyond the beyond the viewer panel. Well, we're going just to add another beyond that. There are so many aspects of the virtual world, but, you know, there are the viewers and then there are the servers and then there is this sort of a gray area in the middle where they actually have to connect to each other. Now, I, one of the guests who was going to be on this panel, Adam Frisbee, who's obviously an OpenSyn founder, but also now CEO of Science Space, he's mid-transit, somewhere between Australia and Hawaii, I believe, so he can't make it, which in a way might just be opportune because as many of you know, this conference started off with a bit of a bang when Melanie Milland announced some things to do with viewers. And also in a talk last week, which was summarized again recently, Crystal Lopez is on the other side here, also talks about the renewed interest in the viewer tech. So maybe finally we are moving to something that really qualifies discussion as a viewer panel. Yes, we're back to viewers. Anyway, I'm going to introduce the people who are here today generally. Melanie, you met this morning. She is part of the OpenSyn core. She used to run a grid called Avination, which had a separate code base, which has now been opened up and incorporated into the OpenSyn code base 0.9. Crystal Lopez, of course, who was the inventor of the hypergrid, never to forget this. And as has been commented earlier on, indeed, just in the last hour of the VIP session, renewed focus on the hypergrid as being OpenSyns. I always call it the killer app of OpenSyn, though it's not really an app, it's protocols, of course. So welcome to both Melanie and Crystal. I'm also joined. He was at the Mr. Blue Robert Adams, who was at the developer of the VIP session a short while ago, and has a fair things to say about the viewer. So welcome, Robert. And Singer Girl Mode. Singer Girl Mode, I'm just going to give a bit of a different introduction because she's doing a few different things. She's a singer, I guess what. But on top of that, she's a developer of 3D Web World, as spelled with a zeb, which is a virtual world in a web browser. And it's over a year in development now. It's great to have made great strides with over 30 regions devoted to art, education, writing, music, community, and more. Now, we'll talk about this. In fact, I think we'll probably start by talking about this. The web worlds have a great similarity to OpenSyn, except they're not what networked. In other words, you might be able to take... We were talking about cyber lounge here last year, where the principle being that you could say build something in OpenSyn and then just export it and stick it on the web. And although it's not connected to the hypergrid, per se, it will be more or less a copy of the same build on the web. So you might, for example, have a night club or something. And you want to invite Facebook friends there. So you put it on a web page rather than send a link where they've got to download a client and then find a way to wherever you are, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. If Adam had been here, there would have been a cross connect there with Science Space, which is built in Unity, in fact. But it has a WebGL version as well as a standalone client. And it allows you to see similar things in both Science Space and the web client. And in some cases, those spaces you're looking at were actually built originally in OpenSyn. So they were built in OpenSyn and exported to SineWaves application, then made available to Science Space's web version. So it's all... There are issues here about the future, whether something that's a viewer on the web might eventually be able to communicate, have the protocols to communicate with the greater hybrid network. And finally, joining us is Will Burns. Will Burns has been with us before. Will... Let me see. I can never remember my... What do I call it? Synonyms. Here we are. Will Burns is a synthetic environment, SME, with over 20 years of experience within marketing design research and the implementation for all areas of synthetic immersive environments. He is part of the IEEE Virtual World Standard Group and beyond. And he has been a defining force in the area of the metaverse with published research in association for computing machinery and a contributing author for various academia. And I'm sure that this goes on, but that's where I'm going to stop or will be here all night. Right. At this point, I'll just give you my LinkedIn to get everybody at this point. Yes. If you're in our live audience, you can click on the links. If you're watching on TV, tough. Right. Or maybe... I don't know. Maybe the people doing the camera work at that moment can even put the links up, but I expect there's a lot of work for them. Okay. Let me start. Will, I suggest you just come in with comments as we go, because I know you have a fairly pertinent self of you here, and you might like me be able to prompt questions. I would actually like to start this session with Singer Girl, because what you're doing, Singer Girl, is very... It's kind of different from the main viewer trend that we'll obviously end up talking about. So maybe I'd like to... I know for a while you were writing to me about getting things clear, because cyber lounge, digital thing, for example, is a totally different thing. And I believe... Is it the nonprofit thing that Thinker of Melville does is also a bit different? You all sort of talk together, but your 3D world world, with the Z, is a very particular thing. So maybe I'd like to talk to us about it, and the ways in which maybe it interlinks with OpenSim itself, IE, for also being... Sure. Sure. Happy to. Hello, everyone. So it's an honor to be here with you today. 3D WebWorlds, first of all, Thinker of Melville does work with us, and we're honored to have that participation. So thank you, Selby. 3D WebWorld is a virtual world in a browser. Basically, we can take builds that we make in OpenSim and put them on a web page. And in reference to how we can use that with OpenSim, is if you are a grid owner, we could perhaps duplicate your welcome region, put it directly on your website, and teach people through a 3D environment how to actually join you on the grid. We've done that with Bill Blight's OpenSim.life in Inspiration Island. There's a tutorial where you can walk through and learn how to download the viewer. The beautiful thing about the virtual world in the browser is that there's no download and no plug-in required. We actually have two portals. We have 3D WebWorlds, which is 3dwebworlds.com as it's listed there, and also 3dportals.com, which I'll put both those links up in just a moment. And 3dportals.com does not require any login at all. There's no avatars and no social tools. If you choose to login as a guest or a user on 3dwebworlds.com, you do have the avatar, social tools, you can customize yourself, you have a profile, you can chat with other users, you can teleport other users and things like that. And to Robert's point, yes, Robert and I have worked closely and I've always enjoyed that. He's done some great work. He actually has a couple of regions up on 3dwebworlds, full-scale ores that have been converted, which was awesome work. Thank you, Robert, for that participation. I also want to give a shout out to Sally Davis. I saw that she was having trouble with her audio, but one of the things that we really concentrate on in addition to the arts is education. And having an educational background myself, one of the things that I wanted to make sure 3dwebworlds highlighted was the fact that we could have immersive classrooms. And we could have immersive classrooms where specific pages were embedded on websites. We do have a working chalkboard, we have a working test system. We've come quite a long way, so if any of you educators out there want to give it a shot, you know, tap me on the shoulder and we'll get you set up with some of those tools. We'd love some of that feedback. So we're expanding every day. Great. Something I have always started wondering about, you know, this goes beyond service to web and viewers really, but was the idea, you know, we don't have a platform compatibility between something like Science Space built with Unity, OpenSim built with, you know, like Lyndon Prims in Heritage or something, or indeed other engines and stuff like that. But I've always sort of thought of the idea of, you know, let's say you can build something in OpenSim with Compactis and then export it as an AR file, but somehow have things in the build independently cross-communicate. Now, presumably something like Voice is an ideal thing where you could have the in-world voice in an OpenSim venue in a web world that's actually duplicates of the OpenSim venues. So the venues would look the same, though they wouldn't be on the same world, so to speak, but it's like the Voice channel or things like that could be integrated so they're on base. There is a Voice channel, correct. Yeah, so we do, we import the builds, there are some differences about the builds. We, to get technical, we leave out any windows that need to be transparent. We have to add those as separate trims. The reason being is because we export from OpenSimulator as a Kalata, and then we actually take that extra step and convert it to a GLTF. Webworlds will take a Kalata, but GLTF loads faster and uses fewer browser resources, so the browser likes it better.  Sure, and yeah, classrooms are an ideal example of course, because often on OpenSim they're run, they're off the hypergrid anyway, they're around closed doors because I don't know, the kids are underage or something like that. Also, I mean Avacon's own grid has a Rocklist library on it, for example, and I imagine something like a library would lend itself to having an incarnation in a world, but also having an incarnation just on the way for people that want to go to the library. We do actually have a writer's section that is quite successful. We have a writer's group that meets in 3D Webworlds every Wednesday night. There is a librarian and a bookstore in development for them, and also Selby and Thinker, Melville, and the Monday Writing Group have been working on creating a quest. We actually have the ability to land in the region where a quest begins, and the user must then follow the clues, and the clues can either be just information or we have it where they sometimes they might have to answer a question to get the next clue. So that was one of our most recent updates, and we thank the Monday Writer's Group for joining us. I still built blight is commenting in chat here about shared voice and stuff. The other thing, I think it's back in the days of I was working with a T.T.V. in our second life, and we had a way, well they had a way I should say, I don't know how it worked, of I think it involved connection with IRC, but it meant we were actually able to chat from second life into other servers and stuff and relate to chat about. So this is text chat of course, rather than voice, so I think those can be sort of connected too. Right, Bill and I work closely, OpenSim.Life, which is as great as my home grid, and so we are constantly working on updates and how to connect the two worlds. Well, WebWorld, 3D WebWorld can stand on its own. One of my main interests was to connect those millions of users out there that when you say virtual worlds or eyes rolled in the back of their head, they don't really understand what you mean. So this was kind of like a soft transition. So we've been working on those kinds of things, as well as a doorway. That would be an easy entrance point that does a downloads for them. And then also, Bill has been working on a fork of the viewer that also allows you to see the WebWorld inside OpenSim. So you could put a media on a trim and actually move around the WebWorld. I keep trying to do that. Right, whenever you need something, whenever you really need something outside the box, you know, you call Bill Blight or Robert Adams to my left, MSA.  You know, I like the idea of being in a virtual environment, in an all-inclusive world like the hybrid, and then seeing the web and things from inside it. So of course, the first thing I do is, you know, kind of put web worlds or science based on a print, you know. Yeah, well, so I think that I think the real message of all is I'm meant to be thinking the other way around. But I don't, you know. Kind of the idea was so that no matter where you were on what device, if there was a classroom or an event inside OpenSim and you were on a phone and only had access to a browser that you could still attend and everyone would be able to talk and chat and commune with each other. So you and I are on the same page with that. All right, Bill is also mentioning Discord, of course, but I'm holding back on the use of Discord channels, which has grown recently. Discord is not a viewer, but we will be talking on that tomorrow on the hybrid panel because it's, you know, it's one of the other ways people on the hybrid can communicate in parallel. Right. Discord is a great option. It does require you to have a Discord account then a separate login. So yeah, we've been working on that too. With the decline of Skype. I'm surprised everybody hasn't got to school by now. Anyway, moving on. I'm going to cross over to Will just to get you in before we move on. Have you any thoughts on that? Because obviously your focus is on the overview and interoperability and things. And we're talking about parallel strands of the connection saying a web world and in world. Have you got any thoughts or designs on that? Or do you have a feel for anything that might be changing in that direction with multiple platforms?  Like I see the bigger picture, but I also see how everybody else's stuff actually matters. Like a web world is a person I don't like them, but it's because I'm more high end.  But I also know that web worlds do play a purpose. They play a very important purpose, which is they have to play the lowest comedy nominator because of browsers. But that's fine because for their use case, they are filling that use case where students have to come in and do things in a simple manner. And they don't have the complexity and high end stuff, which is fine. And the same way I can see that about how OpenSim has that effect as well. So I think when you go into virtual worlds, you have to start by asking what's your end goal? Like are you trying to do this for millions of people? Are you trying to be the mainstream? What's your end goal here? If your end goal is you're looking for something that's easy for students to use, can access it from almost any device, and you've hit your goal. Like you've hit your market, even if it's a niche market, it doesn't matter if you're mainstream, it just matters if you've supplied that goal, if you've offered that solution. Right? So I say the same thing all the time to Adam. You know, if Adam was here, he'd probably be rolling his eyes at me, but I say it all the time to him. I say, I'm not a big fan of sine wave, but it's also because I have a different goal in mind for the bigger picture. I say, but what he has is a great use case. It caters to a specific niche. It does it exceedingly well, and that's all that really matters. I only take issue with virtual worlds when people say, let's make this into a mainstream thing. Then I start pulling everybody back and go, you don't want to do that. Maybe you don't, because maybe you're not ready for that, or maybe you need some changes forever, which is why I was at the code thing here earlier. I was saying, break it, by all means. Don't live in the shadow of yourself. Break it. It's rather like this thing we had a few years ago, things starting up, even services like Twitter, they're six months in, they're becoming successful, and they suddenly realized they've forgotten one thing. Scale, scale. Well, it's something I told Philip Roseville in 2005, and his historic answer was, I beg to differ, and we all know how that worked out. I said something similar when I was up in Wyndon lab last summer, talking to Abby out in his office. One of the things I brought up to him, I said, whose broad idea was it to let on live walk in here and then walk out? He goes, what do you mean? I go, they come in here with a streaming technology and nobody thought to incorporate that. You let them just walk out. He's like, what? I'm sorely tempted that sadly women don't have time. I'll have to get you on one of my shows, but I want to ask the question is Sansar appears to have failed fairly miserably, and now they're moving to Steam. Are they really serious that they're going to take out? My favorite quote from that when I was announced by Wagner on his blog, I said, they're going to be eaten by a shark, because if you think we're bad and give you constructive criticism, the public's not going to be so nice. They're going to tear you to shreds. Then you see back to the original point, after that conversation, if you notice, they're actually looking for streaming people now. They're looking for people to do that now. Whether I had any effect on that or whether I had enough sense to not smack website and go, what were you guys thinking? Get on that. I think it just seems to be a typical case of a bit late on the job. Those are Philip Big Head of a gone. Better late than never. We will see anyway.  I just try to take a great view. I call all of this in my home, not the hyper grid my home, but I've got accounts on hyper dirty science space and other places, and I hop into those two a lot and other places from time to time. Let me move on now to the greatest thing. Obviously, Will and Singer Girl come in here if you have any comments on this. At the opening part of this conference, Melanie Milan sitting next to me on my left. Let me see. Left, yes. My left. You're right. I dropped her bombshell about some work that's been done. She's done in the Unreal Engine toward building a new kind of interface for OpenSim. Now, there were a couple of hiccups when she announced it because I saw people in the audience suddenly thought, oh, you're giving up OpenSim and making an Unreal thing, but this is not true. What Melanie is open sourcing is components for a user interface and an actual viewer that had been built using the Unreal Engine. It's not an Unreal World she's promoting. That will still be our regular OpenSim hyper grid. It is simply a viewer with enhancements that will be built or hopefully completely built using the Unreal Engine. And Krista coincidentally has also spoken recently about refocusing on the viewer side of things. And of course, as we know from the hyper grid and everything else, Krista's core thing is the code. As she says, she's lost when it comes to the graphics and the visual appearance of things. It's the code that makes it work. That's her forte. Whereas what Melanie is contributing to is, to my mind, the opposite side of the coin which is the visual impact.  I'd like to actually start with you because I remember at the time you had quite a few things in chat. Are you impressed or are you suddenly invigorated with ideas as a result of Melanie's announcement? Oh, yes. So I knew about Melanie's work for a while. We had talked about it before, but she was doing it in closed source because it was for some other purpose. But now I'm so happy that she is going to open source it because for those who have been paying attention, I have been sort of away a little bit from OpenSim for personal reasons, but also because I thought that about two years ago I realized that the server side was mostly okay. I mean, we can continue to find and fix bugs forever, but basically the main components of the server are there for what can be done with these second-life viewers. So if we want to take the next big step is really to develop another viewer that is going to be much better than this one. But that is such a daunting task that every time that I thought about how do you even start? Because it's just like there's so many options and you need a team of people who are motivated and come together just like happen on the server side. So I know that a few of the core developers have been dabbling here on the viewer side in particular Melanie and Yubit and Robert, Mr. Blue. And I was hoping that at some point something would happen that maybe would get us all together again on the viewer side. And maybe this is it. So I'm super excited. I can't wait to get my hands on whatever Melanie has done. I'm sure it's amazing. Great. Now I'm going to bring you in, Robert, as well, Mr. Blue. You were obviously at the core devs a short while ago and your thing here really is viewer too, isn't it? How do you feel about these events, the fact that Krista wants to go forward with the code, Melanie's contributing particularly graphical elements, I think, into the interface that will enhance things? What's your take on the great merger, maybe? Are you on? Is your voice at this? Robert, I'm not sure. Oh, he's saying that he doesn't have voice. Oh, you didn't connect him to them? Yes, sorry. Yes. I think there must have been a mistake at the beginning. You didn't get added in. I'm hopefully Joyce or somebody. I've actually pressed ring to try and add him into the call. Okay. That's not going to be helpful. That was a bit of an oversight. We normally check this before we go on there. Okay. I'm actually trying to add you in myself, Robert, but I think it's going to need Joyce or somebody on the back end to do it. And maybe I've got the wrong avatar or something there. It should be ringing for you, Robert. You might want to just check because I know you have voice on, didn't you, in the Q&A.  Right. Okay. Well, while I hope Robert can get some voice working here, let's move on. Now, Melanie, you kind of explained to me long before today, but also you explained to everybody today the sort of nature of what it was that you were contributing. What you're contributing has a lot and lot of work done on it, but it is in no way complete code at the moment. It is actually going to take people like Christa and maybe Robert to examine and see if their disciplines are right for working with it. That is correct, yes. What we have is, well, as I said, it's a daunting task to start from with a viewer. It would have been even more daunting if we had started with Naked OpenGL. So, the decision was taken at that point to not try to reinvent the wheel. When we started this was just the year that the big game engines started open sourcing. Before that, there were closed source license monsters for huge amounts of money. You would get very little flexibility. Then, all of a sudden, the game engines all went open sourcing and Unreal was actually the first one to take the step, I believe. Shortly after that, Unity became available. Those were the two choices we really had at the time we started this project. We settled on Unreal because we were thinking that the console world could potentially be conquered by virtual worlds. Unity doesn't offer the console option. And Unity offers a web option, but WebGL has multiple times already proven to not be capable of rendering large regions with live updates and unoptimized objects from OpenSimulator at an acceptable speed. That was discounted. We said we may want to do something on that in a second iteration. So, we went and used the Unreal Engine. The Unreal Engine has a bit of difficulty with dynamic content. Right. I should add at this point, by the way, Robert points it out, and I can hear it too. He calls it overmodulated. Your audio has got a bit of, you might want to either make it less hostile or move your mouse back from the mic a bit. But we heard you anyway. Yeah. Anyways, what I'm saying is that because of the game engine, we only had to work on getting the content in, and that turned out to be quite difficult because Unreal Engine is, as a game engine, also made for pre-optimized content and baked lighting and things like this, and getting it to work dynamically was a bit of a challenge. I've showed this already this morning where we actually had this imported, and it looked quite all right, except that everything was inside out. It's not even visible in this picture, but when you moved around, it seemed to warp in strange ways, and then we put other textures on there and noticed it. This was when we finally managed to get prims meshed and get custom meshes working in Unreal, which has a very, very limited support for procedural mesh and no support at all for mesh being uploaded and imported. Here we had shapes correct, and then in the next step, we got colors in. Yeah, and a final kind of fully rendered scene. That looks pretty good. And this was with textures and materials. I remember all these are native open sim content, it's only the few areas. This is actually Avination's welcome region, as it was at the time. Back in the day, yes. So yes, it's real actual open sim content. It's prims and meshes and textures, just open sim, and where this loads the geometries from an XML file because there isn't a network layer yet, this actually already loads the assets from the asset server using the open sim asset protocol because it's just plain HTTP, and that's good enough. Very nice. I'm super excited with this, Melanie. The Unreal Editor, you can run it inside the editor, you can compile it to be standalone. You can now run it with a headset or you can run it with a mouse and WASD. You can't run it in third person yet. There are also no avatars implemented. But one of our thoughts was to switch away from the Linden Labs avatar to an industry standard avatar that just uses the same mesh UV map, so the clothing will still fit, but that actually would be completely different internally, as far as the skeleton goes and includes the Avination, which would wake another pet project of mine that I tried to realise within the Linden Labs viewer, but didn't find much love and support for it. This avatar I'm wearing right now is a one-piece mesh, I mean, apart from the hand glasses. I'm busy there, my lips don't move, but basically it's in a format that I can stick in, say, science space or hyperdose or whatever, so it's the same sort of everywhere I go, but that is really a matter of uploading. That will still be a matter of uploading the avatar to OpenSim itself. It's not so you're going to have the avatar in the viewer, is it? I don't get your question. Well, you're saying you're talking about improving avatars, but this whole thing is about the rendering pipeline, isn't it? So this mesh avatar you see me in now will still have to be in OpenSim. It's not so I can somehow upload mesh avatar that becomes available in the viewer. It's got to be in the world itself. It has to be in the world itself, yes, but we were going to break away from the kind of avatar that Linden Labs uses, just simply have an alternate representation that would only be visible in this viewer, and that would be capable of having, for instance, like the spider, for instance, with eight actual limbs or whatever you want. Do you want to dragon that six limbs for you? So you're talking about upgrading, upgrading the implementation of this to be more capable than what Linden Lab has. Yes, there's something called the industry standard avatar, which is a package of mesh textures and animations all rolled into one that can be uploaded, like for instance, to games. Basing on those and having those stored as assets, we could probably quite easily realize this because the Unreal Engine supports those natively, whereas the Linden Labs avatars would have to be shoehorned in. Right, right. So that makes the hell of a lot more sense, actually. So that sounds awesome. Go for it. I mean, actually, well, you probably remember Bruce Joy from Varspark, who you know, obviously, at one point he had the open, I think it was called Open Avatar Project, which you basically went and created an avatar and you could download it in all sorts of formats, and it was designed to be a universal avatar. You'd be able to use anywhere, whether it's on the bottom of a web page or in virtually any game or any virtual world. Sadly, of course, I think that's gone by advice for now. But it's the same idea, is that you can, just like you go to PayPal and open up a wallet, you could go to a service and open up a custom avatar, then they would provide the necessary for you to put the avatar just about anywhere and everywhere you wanted. Well, if I could chime in for a second now. Yeah. I mean, I think a good example here, maybe for the audience would be when I come from SL to here, I export my XML for my numbers for my avatar, which is how my avatar looks the same. So I can export certain assets over and pull them over and keep them universal. So I think in that aspect, using the universal avatar format for the game industry, if you can still keep those sort of numbers and translate them over, you'd be on to something. Oh, the numbers aren't really the industry standard avatar in games. The industry standard actor, it doesn't have morphs. It doesn't have these numbers. Right. But there's other just it's the mesh you make it offline. Oh, wow. This would be interesting. I mean, if you're looking from a game point of view, I think it comes down to what's your end goal for. I mean, if you're looking for- See people going into the Unreal store and buying themselves one. It's not like they're horribly expensive. Yes and no. I think if you'd step back from a developer kind of mindset, like the example is today, I had no problem just uploading this hat.  Finding hair or whatever. The average person does not get to do all this stuff. You're not going to jump through those hoops. The other question is, do you want to homogenize the experience? I mean, I'm not saying it's bad or good. I'm saying it depends on what your end goal is. If you're going for more cross-platform aspects and by all means go for it. I mean, it depends on what the goal is. It's a shame actually I haven't been able to get Robert on voice for some reason here. He's just actually mentioned in chat that it goes scrolling fast, doesn't it? The GL, hang on, I'm going to have to scroll back here. I've lost it. The chat here moves too fast for me. GLTF. That's right. He's saying that is why that is so adaptable because it's the mesh that contains all these different elements that makes it adaptable all over the place, basically. Okay, I've got a horrible feeling. I'm looking at the two o'clock and I'm looking for the quarter-bust or the half-bust. I can't remember. I'd like to go back quickly to Singer because Singer, what are your feelings? I presume you did hear Manny's announcement this morning and what Chris has been saying. As a developing channel, are you excited by all this? Do you see potential for it? Oh, absolutely. I'll also refer back to Robert's comment at the Q&A that revolutionary or evolutionary, and it looks like the advancements coming forward are going to be more revolutionary, which I think is fabulous. It's kind of what we're trying to do with our new thing is change, take what's good from the old, but build upon it and build something better. Yeah, exactly. Suddenly, my head can't correlate this revolutionary thing. I don't see why something can't be revolutionary and evolutionary. You take the good from the old stuff. Sometimes, it's better to start over and pick and pull the good stuff as opposed to building on top of it. Yeah. Okay, so I'm just testing seven minutes remaining. That was at 13-13. What is it? Oh, okay, I've still got seven minutes remaining, I'm told. Okay, I'm not in such a panic any more. Right, okay. So the future now, something I was going to ask, I might as well ask it now, so we can have a bit of time, is obviously, somebody like will take the big picture here and common protocols and things. Now, I always kind of wondered if one day we might have what will be called a Metavos viewer, which somehow will be able, will be a single viewer that will somehow be able to connect to different platforms and interpret their content and still be able to render it. So you might have a viewer that could render Unity content and then immediately render Unreal content and then maybe immediately render OpenSim content too. Now, I imagine that is miles and miles away. I mean, just this is a major step. Well, yes and no. Yeah, I'm going with that one, yes and no. As we have a viewer that can render measures, text choose and SL primitives and we have a world that contains the actual data. Now, for any other world, it's the same thing unless you're talking about having a DLC package like with a game where the stuff is actually downloaded onto the user's computer and then used from the local hard disk. As long as we're talking about streaming content, I don't really see why there should be any content that we can stream provided that the people who are streaming the content will open their formats to us. Yeah, in other words, the... That's the biggest in the room. Yeah. I just wonder, I think it's going to be a few years yet before things pan out, but I'm looking at what's happening with Sansar, they didn't have, for example, it clearly, I mean, it's got hardly any users. They keep trying to hype it up and make esports things, but nobody apparently has ever logged in. And going on Steam, I think, Steam's for gamers, isn't it? There's last place people, Sansar has no gaming side to it. And I think that will disappear from our radar, especially as I think probably an internet has made a vaping mistake in trying to launch a new world and not only build a new world for themselves, but also build their own authoring engine. Other people see the future and whether you like it or not, Unity, Unreal, and some other gaming engines have, I don't see it monopoly, but they are dominant in this world. But that, in a sense, has an advantage because the similarities may actually allow for collaboration and interoperability at some future point. Let's say you've got two completely different virtual worlds built with Unity. Technically, they could tweak each other to become an interoperating duo of worlds, but Sansar could never have done that because its fundamental system is alien to everything else. And I presume the same applies with the Unreal Engine, two worlds or something built with the Unreal Engine. I'm not talking about this viewer here, I'm talking about generally worlds. Then two worlds built with that engine might find ways to interoperate, whereas they don't at the moment because they're being marketed as separate entities. At some future point, they may need to become attached to a metaverse or something. And the commonalities of the engine underneath them may be the thing that empowers that. Well, again, yes and no. It depends on how these worlds are built. If the worlds stream their content, then theoretically anything that they can stream, we can convert and display. It may just be more or less effort and we need to have the protocols. But most of the worlds, say most of the games, even multiplayer games that are built on a specific engine use downloadable packs where you download the entire pack like on Blue Mars where you have to download the entire region and have it locally. And those formats would potentially be incompatible or proprietary and definitely not easily shared between engines. Like the DLC format that the Unreal Engine uses is a stackable VFS, quite involved. I'm not sure. I don't think we use it in this viewer. Please don't start using that. Please don't. Most game engines are based on a VFS actually. So the DLC can override content that came with the game. It's done difficult, isn't it? We also think while the obstacles we get, I'm going to come back to open Sim again here now. We're talking about how well the hypergrid is great, but maybe the groups and the messaging across grids doesn't work. We can jump over the click, but we can't text with a click across the grids. But also things like inventory, for example. At the moment, we're moving it with us from server to server, aren't we, if I understand this. I presume some of it sort of caches in an unreadable form in our system. But basically, we're not talking about downloading our inventory to our local disk. It's a thing that's constantly moving around and if there are any security problems, it's because it's presumably constantly moving with us as we travel from place to place. Inventory is actually server side and it's not moving with you from region to region, but rather you accessing the inventory server from each region that you move into. However, anything you pull out of the inventory becomes part of the region and it would then be deleted and reserialized back into your inventory if you pick it up again. The issue here is more one of control and monetizing content and anything else. If you could save something to your local computer, obviously permissions would become meaningless because you just make multiple copies of that file and then start selling the copies, even though you may not be allowed to. So the original decision by the labs that is the core of the inventory system as we have it today is that users cannot save anything locally. Later, viewer developers after the viewer became well understood added the feature of exporting things that they actually don't own. Everybody knows about those viewers. There is, I must admit I'm hopeless on the tech side of this. There's a lot of talk of blockchains and stuff like that for registering assets and wallets and stuff like that. I know hyperdose, you were looking at that a little bit, but I was reading that recently and I don't know whether it's connected or not, but Tim Berners-Lee has taken time off from all these other sort of things these days to work for a few months on re-decentralizing the web. It's not so much building a new web, but re-decentralizing God is it done to us? What's there already? I noticed in the details there, there's a notion of this thing basically called a pod that will contain all your assets, your identity, almost anything you want, like maybe your credit cards, your health stuff, but also all your online stuff and whatever, but it would be sacrosanct. In other words, it's like walking around with an ID card that only you can program rather than an ID card that somebody else supplies you, which is pre-programmed with information you've already given them. They've got your information and it sounds to me that this new system would involve having a really locked down kind of container, which I think is called a pod at the moment, which is totally secure and you will put information into it and you will have total and utter control over how much information is released out of it to any party you're dealing with. So it would be an end of data mining and Facebook and stuff like that, which I think is rather a good thing. Do you see our assets in OpenSIM or virtual worlds maybe moving in that direction? I put this as an open question and I think it's going to be the last look at the clock. I see it probably. I'm not going to say yes or no. I think it's a possible solution, but it still needs to mature. There's things like Zaya.io that are doing that now. They're applying that in a bigger way. I'm excited for it, but I'm also stepping back and saying, well, it needs to be proven. It needs to actually field test that before I jump on board, but I'm happy about it. It's a good idea. I did feel that when Satim is creating the internet, that's the way he's described, although the web in France is what we talk about. Here's involvement on that level. The whole project is called solid, I believe. It just strikes me that when somebody like the originator like him gets involved, it's going to stand the chance of exposure at least.  Hey, this is my baby. Were you done to it? There's several challenges in that kind of architecture. When we were designing the iProgram, there were a couple of possibilities, especially if we own the viewer side, then the possibilities would even be more real without changing the viewer. There were only so much that we could do. The idea of where are your things? Where are your personal things? They can be in your computer and that sounds great, but you have to keep in mind that you use many computers. You use a home computer and you use a work computer and the laptop and what not. Now what? Suddenly, if you want to access your own things, then you have to have some sort of networking among all your personal machines. Now we're getting into things like sinking the data in somehow and if you will push that to the end users, I think that... We lost voice. Right. We lost Chris's voice and we got a very heavy cough. What's all this about? He asks. We do need to wrap up though. Yeah. Okay. Well, the problem with these panels, they start to get really interesting and the longer they go on, the better and easier they get. Suddenly somebody pulls the plug because you had the time, but that is what happens here. I'm back. Are we at the end of the session? We are, but you can wrap up quickly if you want. I just realized it's almost 1.30 here. Yes, exactly. There's never enough time, especially when you get towards the end. My apologies to Robert Adams, who we pulled in at the very last minute and he's been wonderful in chat, but we didn't get his voice working, so that's unfortunate. I'd like to thank Singer Girl Mode. Thank you, Singer Girl. Good luck with 3D web worlds, and thanks for letting us know all about that. Thanks for having me. I'd like to thank Will Burns for his insights and such. Oh, that's a pleasure. Right. Of course, I would like to thank Krista Lopez. You can't have an open-summed hybrid panel without her in my opinion, but there we go. Thank you, Krista. Thank you. And finally, I'd like to thank Manny Millan, who was our real surprise at the beginning of the conference, and she was surprised on this panel too, so thank you, Manny. Thank you.


You okay? I'm in. It's your core. Bend knees, sit into it a bit. That's a good knee lift. We don't punch good. We're back. We're back. Just a single. Turn it up and up. All right. Go on. Nice color. Whatever you want on the way back.