to be in a spiritual battle, you are in one. There is a battle for good and evil, but there is good news for you on Hope Today. I'm Amy Schaefer, I'm here with Corey Langford. Corey, I cannot wait, cannot wait to dive in to this topic and discussion today. Listen, Spiritual Warfare is at an all time high. We are joined with us today by award winning author, Laura Gallier, of the Delusion Series, and let me tell you, she is loaded with information, she is loaded with resources. If you have a teenager, if you have a young person that you seem like you cannot reach at all, you need to get them to watch this today, this is gonna be incredible. Yeah, that's why I love Christian television most of all, because we discuss things that are happening in the world, what's happening with the youth, what's happening with kids, and on today's program, you are gonna gain some wisdom as to why today's youth are fascinated by the paranormal, yet are skeptical of the Bible. Wow, can you believe it? We'll also feature Jean Watson's timely Lord of the Dance, Irish Ballad, and we will minister to you and pray for you as the Holy Spirit moves in your life. Here's the deal. Now, Corey, I don't know if you know this about me or not, but I love fiction books. No, like love. Really? Yes, so to me, I just feel like a kid in a candy store with these books today, how applicable they are to what's happening in culture. And you know what, here's what I say, bring on the spiritual warfare. We are not unequipped, we're not unready, but we have been equipped with everything that we need for life and godliness, so bring it on. Yes, and I'm excited, because I've always been a young storyteller. After school, I used to go upstairs in my room, I used to write little stories about angels and fighting demons, and so when I saw this today, I said, oh, I'm so excited to interview because it is a spiritual warfare. Even Ephesians 6 and 12 says, for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness and high places, and we have to go into understanding how we are fighting and what we're dealing with. So, our guest today, Laura Gallier, seeks to bring awareness and understanding to issues surrounding the supernatural. Having battled her own enemies of the soul throughout her teen and young adult years, she is on a mission to expose deception with the light of truth, bringing hope and healing to a generation in need. Laura is the author of an award-winning series called The Delusion, and we welcome her to hope today. Laura, welcome, so glad that you're here with us today. Thank you, glad to be here. Thanks for your program. Yes, listen, let's get right into this. First and foremost, why did you feel inspired to start this series? Right, well, it really dates back to my own broken teen years in childhood. I grew up in a fatherless home with a single mom who did not teach the things of God or any kind of biblical worldview, and ultimately went through very broken teen years, early promiscuity and things, just looking for love in all the wrong places. So, ended up having just this dramatic encounter after encounter with God that ultimately led to living for him and having a heart to teach biblical sexuality, and in that, as I would address parents and teens, I realized there was such a disbelief even in the church about the presence of evil, and so our morality was really about being a good girl or a good boy, and we weren't understanding that God's commandments are for our protection, not just of these consequences, but also that demonic realm that seeks to explore our rebellion and even our pain. So that led on this journey of going from writing nonfiction materials for parents and teens, particularly about biblical sexuality, to writing a fiction that centers on a high school that's plagued by suicide epidemic, since suicide so epitomizes believing those lies and being hurt and wounded and the enemy rushing into that hurtful place, and so the main character begins to see the battle that's taking place in his school. Now, what I love about what you decided to do is you're doing something that's kind of abrasive because I feel like a lot of churches today don't really wanna talk about the spiritual realm or the demonic realm.  When did it shift for you to start to deal in the supernatural aspect of things? Yeah, because if we don't have a biblical worldview that we're in a war, our whole spirituality is gonna be off. And some churches may avoid the topic because they falsely presume it's gonna breed fear when actually it's very empowering and we need to know the schemes of our enemy. We do have all victory over him. We don't have to be afraid. I will say very boldly that any kind of religious legalistic spirit hates teaching on the demonic because it is ultimately exposing their father, if you'll allow me to say it so boldly. And so there's different reasons that churches avoid it, but when we don't understand, Jesus made many, many references right there in scripture to that demonic realm. It's not that everything's a devil. I'm a huge proponent of a holistic spirit soul body approach in my own life. I've had to renew my mind to things that were, there was just me. It wasn't the devil, it was me. It was my stinking thinking. So I certainly don't blame everything on the devil, but to not understand his schemes and how he seeks to get us off track and really still kill and destroy, it's dangerous to call ourselves a Christian and not be aware. You know, I was watching a clip on YouTube from the potential movie that is to come and we know that there's gonna be a movie because this is incredible about a young man seeing into the spirit.  Absolutely did. A friend's mom conveyed the gospel to me when I was just in elementary school and when she went to grab my hands to pray with me, the phone rang and she picked it up and no one was there. She hung it up, grabbed my hands, phone rings again, picks it up, says hello, no one's there. Third time, she finally unplugged it from the wall. And so you could say there was that supernatural element, but again, sometimes we think of the devil and those kind of eerie experiences, but where he really was the most devastating in my life is I believed lies, I had childhood trauma and I was partnering with the enemy in my pain and doing things his way, which led to destruction, an unplanned pregnancy, which of course, the baby was amazing, she's my daughter and she's now grown into mother herself, but that was not the consequence, but not being prepared for that pregnancy, experiencing a quick marriage, a quick divorce. I went through a devastating time and even way back in 2019, which hasn't been that long ago, had all this childhood trauma explode in my life, which was just fear off the charts. And we have to understand that Satan works through fear, but God's perfect love thrives out fear. And so that's really the message in the journey. Wow, what I'm learning from these books and learning from you is that you're like an ambassador or an advocate to teenagers in their life. Looking at some of this, it says more than four in 10 youth report that they feel persistently sad or hopeless, but from reading this series, there has been a transformation. Why do you think that is? Why do you think them reading these books is really changing the narrative for them? Yeah, I actually have a testimonial on my social media of a young man who read the series in seventh grade when he was experiencing suicidal thoughts and it was such a defining paradigm shift to realize that those weren't just his thoughts. Now he had the choice to agree with them or disagree, but if those were not his thoughts telling him to kill himself and when he had this paradigm shift that, wait a minute, there's a fight going on and I'm the valuable prize.  It truly started his life in the right trajectory. And he'll tell you even in that testimonial that he is now a young man who's married and has a wonderful life and he wouldn't be there. Had he not ultimately read the delusion and had this paradigm shift, which is meant to point people to the Bible. I think that the title of these three books are really important and I would like for you to unpack why you titled them that. The delusion, the deception and the defiance. I mean, it's things that we are seeing and experiencing and talking about and watching in the news right now in our culture. Why did you choose those three D's? Yeah, great question. Well, ironically, I actually chose the delusion because I know what delusion means. It means to believe a lie, right? And consider the truth to be a lie. So it's to have our whole paradigm flipped and the protagonist in the story is wrestling with what is truth and what is lies. And it was after I had chose that title that I even saw it jumped off the pages of Second Thessalonians that in the last days there will be a great delusion. So certainly having clarity of mind and seeing reality is at the core of what we want in our lives. And that centers around getting free from delusion. The deception, again, closely related to delusion. It's believing a lie, believing we're right when we're wrong.  He's so headstrong and arrogant in some areas. You'd have to read it to see how he ends up getting back on track. And then finally, the defiance. We are either defying evil or we're defying God. There really is no gray area. Jesus said, if you're not for me, you're against me. If you're not helping gather skulls, if you're not helping gather souls, you're scattering them. And so the titles end up being, in a sense, very prophetic call to this generation, I believe. I think you were spot on with those titles. You also did win a Christie Book Award. So congratulations on that. Are these books just for the young? Because honestly, I love almost addicted to fiction books. And I love books that mean something. Are these for adults, grandparents, or are they just for teens or kids? Definitely not just for teens and kids. The main character is a senior in high school and he grows older throughout the series, but we have a lot of people contact me that are adults that have received a ton out of it. I'm an adult, clearly, and I've written it and certainly spoke to me even in the writing of it. So you have been carrying this vision for such a long time, so many words, so many dreams. Can you share with us, what is your vision from here? Where would you like this to go? Yeah, I would like as many people as possible to read it for all the right reasons because I truly believe it's a prophetic parable. That's how the Lord has helped frame it for me and it points people to him, especially people who don't believe. So it's meant to get in the hands of people who they're not gonna go to church, they're not gonna read the Bible and believe any of it. The main character is atheistic. He doesn't have a biblical worldview and my heart just bleeds for that generation and for those kind of people who are critical thinkers. It's okay. And secondly, we are working on that feature film, would be a series of films and we could have made it by now. We could have done it. We've had enough finances to do it by now, but we don't wanna cut corners. We wanna do it excellent. We want it to go around the world and be top quality. So definitely working on that and further along than we've ever been. And then there's two more books in this series in my heart, if not some prequels to follow. So there's a lot more content coming out as well. Wow, that is absolutely incredible. Just talking about that a little bit, I love how the main character is an atheist. Many wouldn't take that position, especially with like Christian type work. It's like, okay, let's make the first person the believer in this and that. What made you go that approach to make him an atheist? Yeah, I appreciate people who ask hard questions and in a sense want proof. I know that sounds like it's antagonistic to faith, but we do need some level of proof or we'll just fall for anything. And certainly the prophecies in the Bible, creation alone, I just recently did this on my social media and talked about how creation speaks to the very proof of God. And so I appreciate people who ask hard questions. I've had to ask hard questions. And our main character wrestles with, hey, there's these, he calls them watchmen, but we would understand them as angels and he doesn't understand, why don't they show up more? Why don't they do more? These are very real world questions that if we're gonna walk out our faith authentically, we need to be asking these and know that God is not afraid of our questions. And I wanted people to be able to journey along with Owen in his authentic journey. He doesn't arrive at faith overnight. And even when he does grow in some faith and his faith is challenged, I wanted it to be realistic to life in that way that people could identify with and grow from. You know, in this trilogy, you do address heavy topics, you know, as we discuss suicide or mental health and atheism, but what hope filled faith? Are we gonna find weaved through these series of books? Yeah, what we're gonna find is God is there and he understands us and he's compassionate and he's so much bigger than just a church building. He's with us and he meets us in our raw gritty needs and he's compassionate. And he truly is a God that in him we can live and move and have our being. And he has defeated the evil one. It doesn't feel like that at times. Satan's the master of illusion. A lot of times it looks and feels like he's winning, but truly God has the victory, but we have to do things God's way. And that's where we get caught up sometimes. We think we're gonna do things in our own strength. It doesn't work, but he's right there to pick us up. And all of that is a part of the thread of the story throughout. Wow, listen, you know, we're gonna be praying for you through this, because I know one thing about spiritual warfare is when you start uncovering things that the enemy does not want people to see, he tries to come after you.  I mean, no question back in, it was literally the exact date of April 8th, 2019. And all this childhood trauma just exploded in my life that had been suppressed that I haven't dealt with. I hadn't dealt with at the time. And again, it was the process of mine renewal. It was very physical and that my chemicals went crazy because fear does that. It was also very demonically charged. And I had had a dream in the eighth grade of defeating Satan on a movie set, but it was this horrible nightmare where he was trying to kill me. And so it's a whole story there to tell the whole dream, but suffice it to say it was prophetic. And ultimately this double-edged sword, and I was only in the eighth grade, I set a sword with a line down the middle. Didn't even know it was the type of the word of God. The devil was in the stream, literally Satan. And he saw the sword and gasped and just shrank at my feet and cried real tears, by the way. In the dream, I couldn't believe how fragile he was as much as he acts like he's big and tough. He's actually very afraid and very fragile. So it's been, it's been very prophetic because that dream took place on a movie set when I was just a teenager. Wow. Wow, there's something that I'm feeling here. When you were talking about this and sharing this experience, I feel like there is a book behind the book. I don't know if you thought about that at all, but the true story behind the writer of these stories, would you ever consider a type of book that went into your life and what you've experienced yourself? I mean, it's honestly so amazing that you would say that because just yesterday with my daughter, we were praying about all this and the movie and there's a lot going on with all of it. And we were just saying, man, there's a story behind the story. We just had that. So yes, I'm open to anything God calls me to do that would potentially bear fruit in other people's lives. Well, that's confirmation. Cause I felt like the Lord was saying, there's a lot in your own story that people can say, okay, what inspired her? What did she go through? Cause I think that's what people want is that authenticity of us telling our true stories. Laura, can you tell us how can people pre-order the delusion series or where can they find it to get it? Any information about how they can get this book? Yeah, it is right there on Amazon already and they do sell the three books set in either Kindle or Softcover. You can just click it. If you'd like an audible or hardcover, you just search up the name of the particular novel right there on Amazon and you can get it. And I do offer a free download of the first chapter on my website, laragallier.com. Laura, real quick before we have to end this interview, how would you encourage parents of your main character, Owen Edmonds, today?  Yeah, I would just say do not fail to pray for them and ask the Lord what is that scripture or two that he would have you stand on and we don't walk by faith. I mean, excuse me, we don't walk by sight, we walk by faith. We do not walk by sight, we walk by faith. So cling to that verse he's given you and know that love drives out fear behind every depression and most mental emotional disorders, there's fear. So as parents, if we can ask some good questions, especially with God guiding us, we can get to the root of the fear and God wants to bring assurances and drive out those fears that then cause us to be mentally and emotionally unstable. Laura, this has been an incredible conversation. I'm gonna be praying for you.  I see this in cinemas, I see this everywhere. I see you touring and he's healing you through this process. Thank you so much for being with us today on Hope Today. Thank you so much. Absolutely. Great conversation and topic today, but right now we have a throwback Thursday with the song from Jean Watson in 2015, Lord of the Dance. We danced to the moon and the stars and the sun. People said it was a shape. They whipped and they stripped and they hung. I feel today like the devil is dancing all, not on just your shoulder, but on your life and in your house. And I mean, you might be even trapped with a spirit of fear, not knowing what to do or what's gonna happen, but I just wanna remind you today, like we're talking about the supernatural. We're talking about good and evil, God and Satan. And I think it's so important that you remember who the characters are in the story.  It kind of reminds me, Corey, of the movie The Wizard of Oz. Remember the little Oz?  And I'm just saying Satan is not that big. He's not that bad. He has been stripped and ripped of his authority over you. So what you have to do is you have to rise up and you have to know who you are, know who's you are, and you have to know your authority as a believer in Christ. You walk into that room and devils have to flee and tremble because it's Christ in you, the hope of glory. Yes, Amy, and you said it. You said it when you talk about authority. That is something that the enemy is most afraid of, is authority. When we don't know who we are in God and when we don't know our identity in Christ, we have no authority. We had a great interview today with Laura Gallier and it was eye-opening about her book series. We talk a lot about supernatural, but one thing I want you to understand today is that there is evidence of the glory of God that's being revealed in your life by how you got attacked when you were in your childhood. And many of you right now, you may be watching this right now, you're saying, wait a minute, wait a minute, where's this going?  What does he did even in scripture when he knew that there was a great deliverer coming? He tried to kill all of the two-year-olds in younger, trying to look for Moses. And then that was a foreshadow of Jesus. Once again, here's King Hare, kill all of the babies. There is something about knowing the potential in your life by how the enemy attacks you in your childhood. But listen, I want you to pick up those books, get those audible books as well to listen to while you're driving and get it into your teen's mind or your children so that the narrative can change and that they don't feel alone in their struggle.  I know young people struggle because they feel like God doesn't understand them or that they can't relate. Do you experience that? Do you know that they're calling this age the age of anxiety? Wow, that makes sense. It makes sense. That should bother us as believers. The age of anxiety? Are you like the visuals that we're seeing all the time, the things that we're watching, the things that we're looking at? It is feeding fear. It is feeding and suicidal thoughts. It is feeding, you're not valuable, you're not worthy, you're not loved, you're not good enough, you'll never achieve this, you'll never have that. Why do you even live? Why are you even existing? And it is a spiritual battle. But here's the thing that the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy. But Jesus said, I've come to give him life and life more abundantly. That's why we exist as a Christian television network so people can know Jesus. So people can meet Jesus because Jesus changes everything.  Jesus will bring life back into your home and into your soul. Will you give us a call today at<PHONE_NUMBER>? We wanna pray for you. We wanna see freedom and breakthrough and light and life in your home today.


I want to talk a little bit about, I'm going to talk a lot about what Hathi Trust does around collections today and in a couple of different ways. What we do with digital collections and what we hope we can accomplish with our membership around fiscal collections as well. These are not the only things that we could talk about with Hathi Trust, but there are a couple of salient issues that I thought might be interesting for you all here today. So very quickly to cover an outline of what I'm going to be covering, I'm going to talk about some of the characteristics of our collection. I will first address what is this Hathi Trust thing anyway. I'm going to talk a little bit about a program we have to undertake copyright investigations and copyright review, and then I'll talk about a shared print program we have underway that is led by Liz Ann Payne, our shared print firm officer who's sitting right there in the turquoise jacket. Let me get my timer on so I don't completely overstep my welcome. So first off, Hathi Trust, what are we? A lot of folks will think of us first as a website, as a place on the web where one can go and access digital content, historical legacy digital content, kind of like JSTOR, but not quite because there's not all that much stuff there, not all the same things. I want to acknowledge that absolutely no attempt to invest this website, this design with human emotions, was made during the design phase of this particular iteration of the Hathi Trust interface. We're happy with it, but yet. I think it is important to acknowledge that yes, it's a digital library, but we think of ourselves as much more than that. We're very much an organization that is attempting to work deliberately above the level of our individual libraries in order to accomplish some things that we could not do independently and individually. So our mission is a library mission, but it's one at that higher network level. Another way of thinking about what we do is we're trying to cooperatively develop a common good, a set of services and activities and collections that can be beneficial to the membership and help them bring more value to their own students and researchers, but also be beneficial beyond that. We are a trusted digital repository in the sense that we have been through track audit and we do operate a preservation infrastructure. And in fact, that digital preservation infrastructure I think of as the base for all of the other programs that we undertake, which we think of as quite transformative. We're a membership organization as well. It's actually about 126 members right now and with the exception of our research center and some specific projects there, our funding is entirely from member fees. This is a current list of our members. I think it's important to acknowledge that while I'm talking about collections with a global reach, our membership does not look very global. It is very North American focused. It is, there are seven institutions outside of the United States, four in Canada, British Columbia, Calgary, Alberta and McGill. We have Queensland University from Australia, University of that Compilatins, Madrid, and American University of Beirut are the non-US universities. And it's important to acknowledge this because a lot of what we do is based in US copyright law. And I think one of the difficulties of collaborating internationally around libraries, library collections, and digital realm has to do with different copyright regimes. And I'll talk a little bit about that as we go. So on the collection front, the collection today includes about 15 million digitized volumes, right? So that could be multiple volumes related to a single title. If you go by our metadata, which is Mark, so your mileage may vary, that's about seven and a half million monographic titles and four hundred fifteen thousand serial titles. Of that, 38 percent, 5.8 million volumes are open. And I was talking with Lizanne about this earlier this afternoon, and I cannot remember the exact number of titles that equates to, but it's between two and three million, and I'm sorry, I just couldn't keep that in my head with my head cold. The materials in the collection are primarily digitized, almost entirely digitized from legacy collections. I think it's important for us to consider going forward how our collection becomes prospective as we really focus on bringing more scholarship into an open access environment, which let's face it is not always well integrated into workflows for libraries for discovery access and preservation as well. We will be focusing primarily on book collections for the foreseeable future, although in the past we've been asked about other collections. That's really where our focus is going to be. A quick look at the linguistic spread of our collection. It is about half in English. You see the top 10 languages there, it's very diverse linguistically. To pivot to usage for just a second, I can tell you that about 60 percent of our of our sessions, over 10 million sessions last year, were from English speaking countries, and with about half of those from the United States. The United Kingdom is the second country that most frequently visits Hathi Trust, 6 percent of our visits last year, with Germany being in the top five as well. So it is a collection that's broadly beneficial to individuals around the world, we believe, and we're happy about that. The collection is primarily from North American research libraries. I didn't get to this in my last section, but really this organization came about in the wake of mass digitization. So if you look at the contributing libraries and the largest aggregate here, they are organizations that partnered with the Internet Archive or Microsoft or Google early in this century to begin mass digitization of collections. And that was really the problem, if you will, that got focused on how to collaborate in a more focused and intensive way. The access protocols for our collection are often quite difficult for folks to understand, but I think I may have finally distilled it down to one slide. For anybody anywhere, any of you would be able to search the collection. You'd also be able to go to the Hathi Trust Research Center and do some basic text and data mining using some services they have there, and you could read online any of the works that are open or public domain in the location you happen to be. Members have more advanced access to the public domain materials. They can download those works. For members, we're able to provide services for their students and faculty who have print disabilities who are blind or otherwise have need for assistive technologies. We can make some collections available to those individuals. And we do have, under library exceptions, the United States replacement access, both in either print on demand or digital access for materials that have been lost or damaged or otherwise missing, not available. I'll say just another quick word or two about this mode of access, our non-consumptive access, by which I mean simply access that's not primarily for reading. Access that's defined around computational analysis, often sometimes called distant reading. The Hathi Trust Research Center is based at University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign at Indiana University. The work that we do is distributed around our membership. We really depend upon distributed expertise and effort to make this whole thing work. And those two institutions have particular expertise around text and data mining and infrastructure to support that. So they have been developing scalable services that enable secure high performance access, high performance and virtual access to the entire Hathi Trust collection. One of the ingenious services that have been developed there is something we call the data capsule, which is really a virtual environment where you have access to some subsets defined by you of the Hathi Trust collection that you can then run your own analyses on. This is available for the entire collection without regard to the status of its copyright. That is again based in fairly well now established principle in U.S. law of digitization for search and analysis being of fair use. We do distribute data sets for individuals to work with on their own, but we can only do that with public domain data. And just a very quick couple of examples of the kind of research that has been done at the Research Center. These are a couple of special projects through an advanced collaborative support program we offer. Matthew Wilkins has done work to pilot the extraction of geographic place names from 10,000 volumes of the Hathi Trust corpus, well on his way to working on that for the entire collection as well. Michelle Oaxupalus is an economic historian at the University of Toronto who has very interestingly done analysis on subject cuttings and library metadata to look at technology diffusion, so you know what what technologies evolve in a particular domain and then over time diffuse and evolve and become apparent in other information domains. And her work now is focused on content analysis of full work and you see a couple of visualizations of that there. So that's the collection, a little bit about our access policies, a little bit about some of the services we provide. I'll turn now to talk about one of the major programs we have underway that I think is frankly the best example I have of the kind of distributed cooperative work we've been able to do through Hathi Trust and it's a program of copyright review. To get to to talk about why we do this I want to show a couple of pictures here. This graphic is an attempt to show the distribution of works in Hathi Trust by date of publication. The bars represent primarily decades with the exception of a few of the far left hand which represent centuries because we just don't have that much from the 14th century in the collection right now. A couple of things I think are quite interesting looking at this. You can see the post-war boom in scholarly publication very clearly by looking at the high boost on the right side of the graph. That's all post-war. You can also see that as the 20th century moves on and that explosion occurs digital access is decreases. The orange and the orange lighter sections on this graph indicate material that is open or public domain in Hathi Trust. The dark indicates that which is not in full view which is restricted. This graphic is another view of the collection but focused more specifically on the different kind the different status copyright status of works in the collection. The majority is in copyright where we at least as far as we know there are there's a substantial portion that's not and that is open for various reasons. Some material has been licensed by the rights holder through us for full access using Creative Commons. A small portion but actually a large number of volumes are in the 30-40,000 volume at least. The U.S. federal documents are not protected by copyright so those are also fully open and about 19 percent of the collection is public beyond the docs and the Creative Commons is public domain outside of the U.S. and inside the U.S. That's the PD worldwide. There's a portion that is only considered to be public domain in the U.S. And that is material for which we have not always been able to determine clearly whether or not it is in copyright outside the United States. We have different copyright regimes here I'm sure you're aware of the United States. It's a hard date right now. After 1923 you can assume it's in copyright from a particular date which I forget I think it's 70 96 I can't remember. We do have life dates in the U.S. but for a large portion of the 20th century it's 95 years. With a few exceptions which I'll talk about but of course it's life dates in the rest of the world. And so one of the challenges we have my predecessor John Wilkin who John cited earlier had a great phrase called bibliographic indeterminacy meaning that the difficulty the challenge we have at actually knowing knowing things about our collections based on the quality and the depth of the metadata we've had about it. So this is what's led us to this program of copyright review. And this is work that is focused on systematic distributed investigations into the into the status of individual titles in Hathi trust. We have had over the last eight years through the goodwill of our membership over 100 individuals and libraries and probably 30 or 40 different libraries participating and contributing staff time towards investigating the status of these works. And the way the the program has worked is it's a it's a double review. Two different individuals look at the same work do the investigation and then we'll if they agree we will determine you know we'll assign a status to it if it's they determine it's public domain we'll open it. If they are if they say we can't figure it out we'll mark it indetermined. If they if they disagree we'll have an expert reviewer adjudicate that. The the the focus has been on two distinct pools of content for different because of different copyright regimes. In the US we've looked at publications published after 23 and up to 1977 because during that time in the US works had to be meet certain formalities to be under copyright they had to have a little C mark inside of them and they had to be registered and they had to be renewed and if both of either of those formalities were not met by now they are out of copyright right so we're focusing on several we focused on several hundred thousand volumes from the US during that time period then we undertook a project to look at publications in the United Kingdom Canada and Australia those dates noted there observed the 50 or 70 year rule of copyright life dates plus 70 or 50 in those in those countries and you can see here that as we go through this work roughly half of what we have looked at we've determined to be in the public domain that does not mean the rest of it is certainly in in copyright often we will not be able to make a determination and we will mark it such so that we can come back and do other work later the reasons sometimes we mark it undetermined might be we just don't have sufficient information we can't find life dates it might include photographs without credits and we can't determine the copyright status of those so this is quite intensive looking and it's a but it's one that we focused and developed in a way that is focused on speed and scale and again this is about 650,000 works that have been reviewed in the course of eight years twice right so this is this is a pretty significant contribution and there's still more to be reviewed there's some gaps in what we reviewed for the what we called the world project we did not review materials published in New Zealand South Africa India I believe there are some materials published in the United Kingdom now that we have not gotten to as well our current project focuses back on us we have about a hundred thousand volumes to review in the US so if I have anything else to say about that I think I will just move on then that's that's one one major project again the benefit is to individuals worldwide because we're opening these things worldwide but one of the things that opening materials worldwide does is it gives libraries an opportunity to think differently about how they manage physical collections you're probably fairly aware of this right after after we started digitizing collections of journals in the 1990s with JSTOR and individual publishers and they began selling them back to us it gave us an opportunity to think about well do we need to retain these journal titles in our central stacks could we move them to another facility and then as the years more on we got more radical and thought do we even need to hold on to these things or bind them anymore and and so I want to talk about the shared print program we have underway because I think it's one that is it is just getting underway has a great start underway but it's really one that's focused on a prospective effort and one that I think has some interest potentially some interest here in the United Kingdom so the goal of this program is twofold the one I put on the slide is that we want to link preservation of the digital and physical right we want to be able to tie those two things together so that our libraries can ensure that the print record goes forward another driver is that there are real problems of economics in space in almost all of your libraries and certainly in most of the libraries in the United States as well that bar graph that went bump on the second half the 20th century was not accompanied by a bar graph that went bump on the amount of dollars available for library facilities to be built maybe in the 60s in the maybe the 70s but not into the 90s and into this century so there's a real space issue and the goal another way of articulating the goal has been to help our members find ways of more efficiently and more effectively cooperatively steward these collections and do so in a way that saves them some capacity so this project is not focused on cereals it's focused on monographs most of the work on shared print in the world has been focused on cereals it's not done but we monographs are just getting underway so the goal of this work is to establish a one-to-one physical mirrored collection of the hot to trust collection for monographs so this would be physical copies retained by members it's distributed the material will need to be lindable that is it will need to be accessible to other partners in the program as well it's a program that's really intended to be a benefit to the entire membership so that even if you're not a retaining library you would be able to obtain access to the collection and this last point is very important that we want to build on what's already going on in the realm of shared print and not disrupt that in fact if we tried to disrupt it we'd not be successful and we would waste a lot of effort so the the goal is really trying to build on those existing resource sharing arrangements and not not break them down and there are a lot of existing resource sharing arrangements in north america um there it's a big it's a big country there's like 900 i think oclc estimated 900 million holdings across north america and maybe 47 million distinct titles this is several years ago so those numbers may not be quite right any longer what you've seen is these regional alliances these regional shared print programs around cereals emerging and they often build off of existing resource sharing networks for interlibrary loan or maybe licensing or other kinds of consortia and often quite really large east is notable in that it's relatively recent and that it is focused on monographs and it's also quite large in that sense so these are the programs that we feel we need to be able to work with what i think is notable about about this work that we have and see in the united states is as much activity as there has been it has really been in the regional level right there's there's been some effort to coordinate at a national level but not uh in a very um i don't want to say it's not that it hasn't happened it's not been as productive to do so it's been more informal there's not uh there's not like agreements between these programs there's agreements between libraries and these programs it's also difficult to connect these these different programs there the data available is of varying quality and this is like the story of library and libraries and metadata of course but c l l has done a fair amount of work looking at the data that they have in their p a p r registry on cereals commitments and what what we have there is data of varying quality difficult to make actionable decisions on so in uh why is that well one reason is that it's very hard it's harder to disclose your retention commitments the higher up you go in this stack of networked sources in fact there's less incentive for you to do so because if you're a library and all you really you may only need to know or feel you need to know what's accessible to you and your patrons and if you're in a shared print network you probably need to know what's accessible within that network but it's not necessarily the case that folks in another network need to know that right because you're not retaining on their behalf so the goal that we have is to take advantage of the fact that we collect holdings data from all of our members physical holdings data which is reported annually maybe by annually in the future uh to to launch this program so the goal here is look at this holdings data consider its overlap with the hot to trust digital collection and then use that analysis to drive the shared print program going forward and i have just one last uh slide here with any content on it this is a quick view of the implementation plan for this program we often call phase one a quick launch meaning we're moving fast to get some substantial work done initially and then analyze the results so the goal is that by the end of this year we will have matched about half of the collection and about half of the collection will be committed to be retained for a period of perhaps 25 years by hot to trust member libraries so we have a lot to do in the remainder this year we've got to develop formalize our policies and the agreements to hold this and get those commitments disclosed that's just getting underway right now that the the commitment analysis has been done the libraries are now considering what they can commit to us we're deferring a whole lot of important questions that would really move this from to a preservation conversation but those are the questions that we can begin to look at in the second phase of this which will begin next year where we try to it really becomes a long tail question then right what can we what are our gaps in our coverage what do we need to get we might have to do some closer looks at particular library collections and make requests of specific materials to be held that's all all to be determined but the point i want to make here is that you know we need to find a way to get started and our goal here is really to help catalyze that that start through this program among our membership and so i will leave this i'm just about out of time so i'm going to leave it there um just a quick note i know very i know very well i'm talking about a very particular context a very particular context in the united states um and that the UK context is quite different i'm eager to hear more about that and understand you know what issues you face around shared print and questions you have about that so i will take questions you have at this point thank you


We are broadcasting live from the ThinkTech studios in the Pioneer Plaza in downtown Honolulu, and if you want to tune in live, we are at www.thinktechhawaii.com, and if you want to subscribe to our programs or get onto the mailing list, please go to thinktechhawaii.com and sign up. The theme of business in Hawaii is to bring new stories of businesses and people and their successes and how they overcame their challenges. Our guests share with us the journey that they've been on. It's my pleasure today to welcome John Lambert into the ThinkTech studios today. John is the general manager of Vivio Media, so welcome to the show John and thanks for joining us. Let's start with congratulations. Congratulations on winning Hawaii's best places to work this year in your category. So tell me what makes Vivio Media one of the best places to work? Well, thank you for that. Yeah, it was a real honor to be recognized this year at that level, so we're very happy about it. And really, I think the reason that our employees voted in that way, it's really more about them than it is about anything else. The spirit to core, if you will, of the team is what we really rally around. I mean, as far as the company goes, the products are great, the benefits are very good, and what we do for clients is really sacred. But I think the true underpinning of what makes our environment a great place to be is really the camaraderie and the internal support that we all have for each other as a small internal community here in Hawaii. In my line of business and the HR business, it's always exciting to hear about what makes employees so jazzed about the organizations they work for, so that's awesome. Congratulations again. Thank you. Why don't you start by telling me about Vivio Media and who you are? Sure, so we are a full service marketing company, really at this point, a marketing technology company. And if you look back at our lineage, we actually have been around for over 100 years in total. Most of that time, our company was primarily engaged in the yellow page advertising business, so really print media. Recently in the past, a decade and a half or so, we've really expanded our solution set, and we have been very proactive and aggressive in the online world. And now we are actually doing more business in the digital space than we are in the print world. But we still do both here locally in the state. So tell me about, in general, the online marketing boom in Hawaii. I mean, what is that like and what is it experiencing? Yeah, sure. And I think, you know, there's really still a lot of, not only opportunity, but also confusion and hesitation in our local market as it relates to how to sort of take the leap into the next generation of marketing, how to represent your business online. Many companies have really come to the point now where they recognize the sort of the base case importance of doing that, but don't know where to begin, where to start, because it can be very confusing. And it can have so many different facets to it to be able to understand it on your own. It's a very daunting task. So we're in like a really pivotal time, I feel, in the evolution of the business space here in Hawaii, where a lot of our clients and a lot of the small businesses in the state still have one foot in the old world, but are trying to plant that foot in the new world as well and figure out how to best, you know, attract leads, reach out to their buying public, attract new businesses and keep their current customers. There are more options now to do that than really ever before in the history of what we do. So that brings with it some great opportunity, but also some great challenge, because the question becomes, well, how do I navigate that space? To navigate it on your own would take so much time in terms of learning and research. And by the time you learned it all, it would probably be outdated anyway. So the call to have a good partner that really is invested in keeping at the front head of that stuff is very important. So that's what we do. And that's really what we pride ourselves on. So you mentioned that Vivial has been around for some time. I do know that the organization, and you've been with them for a very long time as well, and they've gone through a journey. And I don't think that a lot of people know that you connect up with, from Verizon, Yellow Pages, to even some of the regulated type businesses in Hawaii. So can you tell me about that? Yeah, sure. So because our lineage is in the pretty yellow page of business, we've been around obviously a long time here. Also, we've been through a lot of change in terms of ownership, operating philosophy, and also in terms of product mix and what we bring to market. So in the time that I've been here, and I've been at the company about 14 years now, hard to believe, but who's counting, right? We've been through a number of different acquisitions, all private equity based. And what that has done for us, it's really allowed us to be more agile and more aggressive in terms of how we go to market and how we're servicing our clients and do that more effectively over time. So I'm really thankful for that. Being from the sort of telco partner environment to now being really a digital company primarily has really come with it a lot of change in terms of how flexible how agile and fast moving we can be as it relates to delivery and distribution of delivery of products to the base that we serve. And also it has implications into what we're going to be doing next as well. So when I was learning about Vivial and what you folks do, I was learning that there's a portion of your business that comes off of the regulated communications industry. Tell me about the connection with the PUC and where is that relationship? How does that work? The way that works is on the print side of our business, the production and distribution of the phone company's directory is PUC regulated. So there are certain guidelines that must be followed. So we still are very mindful of that. And for the print side of our business, we have to abide by the PUC regulations for distribution. Oh, wow. Okay. So with so many different choices in the world of online marketing solutions, tell me how Vivial is different. What sets you apart? Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that really, you've kind of hit the core of the problem for many of our clients. If you're a small and medium sized business or if you're starting a new business, a lot of our clients tell us that they're really trying to navigate this landscape of confusion. They don't know necessarily where to begin. And even if they do, the next sets of questions that come after that is, okay, well, what of all the things that I can do online to promote my business? What are the few things that I must do? Because you can't do it all. You can't be everywhere. And of the things that you must do, well, how do you get those done? And how do they work together? So that's what really sets us apart as a company is we invest a lot of resources in really analyzing and investigating the preponderance of what's out there and trying to figure out, okay, based on really what works, based on consumer usage behavior and how people are consuming information and trying to find products and services, what are the things that are most impactful, most relevant and are going to produce the best return on investment for the local client based on what they need? After that, we sort of survey the landscape of opportunity of who's out there doing it really well and then partner with good vendors, which we've done very successfully for a couple of years. And at the next stage that planned evolution and more recently what we've been involved in is starting to acquire our own strategic digital assets so that we actually own the solutions that we're putting in front of our clients and bringing to market. That gives us the additional flexibility and control to really deliver at a more customizable level and also a more efficient delivery system to really drive a better return on investment at the client level, which is really what ultimately we're trying to do. So speaking of those clients, what kind of clients in Hawaii come to you? Yeah, really anybody, it's anything from a one person operation to a large bank. If you think of it this way, any company that could benefit from having a strong online presence, getting leads, acquiring and keeping customers and communicating with their client base or customer base online and building loyalty and engagement, that's the client that we are looking for and can do a good job for. And I think most companies would put themselves in that category. What kind of challenges do you find your your clients are bringing to you? I mean, what are their challenges do they face in trying to enter into this online market? One of them is confusion. There's really too many options I would say out there. So how do you cut through the clutter and who do you trust in order to do that for you and advise you appropriately based on what you need? What a client is really concerned most about is you know, if they're going to take the leap to hire a vendor to do something important for them, does that vendor really get them? Do they understand not just what the vendor does, but do they understand the direction of that client and the intentions and the goals and the wills of that person? And that's really what it's all about. And that's the magic, I think, of what we do because, you know, we have a great team of consultants here in Hawaii and they are very passionate about going out there and engaging with those clients and really just climbing into their minds and figuring out, okay, what is it that keeps you up at night? You know, what is it that can really solve for you and then building the solution that actually gets that done, at least in part or in whole? So that's the magic of it, I would say. So it sounds like you build some very personal relationships with your clients so that you can understand what their needs really are and how to really express who they are to their audience. Yeah, absolutely. Because ultimately, you know, we're all about this community. Our branch here in Hawaii is about 40 people. All we worry about is Hawaii. Our clients are on Oahu and on Maui, Hawaii, Big Island, and that's really all. And that's a great luxury because we can really get intimately involved with figuring out the current state of those clients and figuring out where they want to go and then really playing a hand and allowing them to get to their personal promise land, whatever that is. Because sometimes that's more revenue, sometimes that's more volume, sometimes that's taking their business in a whole new direction, whatever it is. The point is, and the magic happens, and there's really a sanctity there where you are able to engage your client at that level and figure out, okay, you know, if I can do A, B, and C for this client, then we've really won here. That's what we're really about. What about some of your success stories? Do you want to share some of that? Oh gosh, there's not to boast, but there's so many. There are many clients that I could reference that have increased followership, engagement, Google rankings, profitability, market share. There are a lot of examples. I wouldn't want to slight any one particular client by mentioning another, but yeah, there's a few that come to mind if you want me to get kind of specific. I would love that. One that comes to mind actually is a place that maybe you've eaten at, Eggs and Things. They have a number of locations. Have you been to the Waikiki one? And they've sort of rebranded, right? Yes, so we played a hand in that, so they engage with us on a number of different levels. We manage their social media for them. We do a lot of content and engagement marketing for them. And we also have done a lot of search engine optimization for their business. And I think I do have some of the numbers if you actually want to hear those details. I'm sure everyone's very interested. Okay. Yeah, we're very pleased with what they've been able to do. So we've reached half a million customers since the start of the program. It's a lot of people. 107 posts and growing. 263 Google rankings, including 232 organic, 31 maps, number one for best omelettes in 96815, which is that zip code would be Waikiki, right? Or is that? Definitely Eastside. I'm not sure. Yeah, I don't live there, so I don't know. Number two for Waikiki pancakes and Waikiki breakfast. Oh, wow. Yeah. And over 600 online directories optimized, which is very important. And then a lot of review management as well. Right now it's a date. They have 4,000 reviews and counting just pretty big. Fantastic. We are going to take a short break. This is Business in Hawaii. We'll be right back. So I'm Yukari Kunisue. I'm your host of New Japanese Language Show on Think Tech Hawaii called Konnichiwa Hawaii, broadcasting live every other Monday at 2 p.m. Please join us where we discuss important and useful information for the Japanese language community in Hawaii. The show will be all in Japanese. Hope you can join us every other Monday at 2 p.m. Aloha. This is Business in Hawaii. And today we are talking with John Lambert, the general business director at Vivio Media. And we are going to talk about how Vivio Media and what you do provides tools to local businesses. Yeah, sure. So, I mean, as an example, if somebody were to come to us really from the ground floor and say, hey, I don't know where to begin. And I've not really done anything yet. So that's sort of a blank canvas of opportunity for us. So the first thing that I think a business really needs is a website that's the foundation. Surprisingly, there are many businesses out there here in Hawaii that are still operating without one. So there's a lot of opportunity even there still. I mean, many businesses already have one, but many do not. The next step to that is optimizing that business's website and their online presence in order for them to be found on Google and other search engines. Google really is the holy grail of commerce. And if you're not found there, you are missing out on just huge amounts of potential in your market because everything happens on Google.  And maybe you get places and it is certainly the £800 gorilla in terms of information delivery. So that is a huge part of what we do is to make sure that if somebody is googling that business's product or service in that location that they get found, virtually nobody goes to the second page of Google. So either you're on the first page or you're almost not even there. So getting to the first page is a giant priority for our clients and for us. So there's a number of ways in which we do that. If you're familiar with the layout of the search results page, for example, a lot of the listings that are on that first page are what's called organic. So you cannot pay to be there. You can invest in solutions that help you get there, but you can't directly pay search engines to appear. Then there are also ads that appear on that page in a variety of locations.  And we cover really both of those arenas. And the goal is to occupy as much front page real estate as you possibly can for the keywords that are relevant to your profit centers and the lines of revenue that you value most and in the locations that you want to be doing business. So there's a lot of science to that art. And I could bore you with some of it. If you'd like, like, let's say, for example, you are a dentist here in town, you would like to probably show up if somebody types in dentist Honolulu. So we can do that for you. And if I were to ask you, though, where do you want to show up? Would you want to be number one or number two for that type of search? Most people would probably say number one. Number one. Everyone wants to be number one. And that's fine. But what if I would also tell you that that number one position, a click will cost you, say, $50. And the number two position click will cost you $7. Which position would you prefer to have then? Maybe number two. So that's part of what we do is we optimize the investments that our clients make in order to provide the best return on investment. So for example, that example right there, we have a counterpricing algorithm that helps us do that. And there are a thousand things technically that are happening on the back end of what we do in order to do it well. So when businesses come to us and say, oh, I can, you know, I think I can do this on my own, the answer is probably, yeah, you sort of can, but should you? And can you do it well enough to justify the fact that you're spending almost time on it? The answer to that is almost always no, you cannot. Because the way that we've built the infrastructure that we now operate on and the way that we help clients in this way, it's a combination of a lot of technology, a lot of software that is venture funded, it costs millions of dollars, and then a team of really great people to make it run well. And in tandem, those two things combine to really create the best possible situation. You get economies of scale, you get divisions of labor, and then you get really good effective programs that are not super expensive. So that has been really great for us because our band, if you will, in the state is really the small and medium sized local business space. So we're not selling packages to the client that wants to spend a half million dollars a month on their online marketing budget.  And the scale is really important too. We have clients that are investing as little as $100 a month and clients that can do well with a $20, $25, $30,000 monthly package. There's really something for everyone because there's so many options and we have the technology and the expertise to be able to customize them depending on the client's needs and the scale of their operation and the competitiveness of their industry. So that you end up with really something that's going to work for everybody based on their situation. Do you guide your clients through when it's time to scale up or scale down? We do, yes. In fact, one of the other great luxuries that we have as a branch operation here in Hawaii is we have a fantastic team of account coordinators who actually do a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of implementation and client education and then optimization over time. So a consultant will go out, build a program, gain a commitment, but then that is taken by that team of account coordinators. And what they do is they hold the client's hands and they make sure that everything that has to happen for the program to launch well happens. And then on an ongoing basis, they will continue to reach out to that client to review performance, talk about new ideas, maybe discuss different levels of participation that they're not particularly engaging in yet to see where we want to go in the long haul as well. So what if a client tells you, okay, I think I'm just at that space where I'm happy, what do you do for them then? We celebrate their happiness, of course, and we just keep in touch with them and in order to keep our finger on the pulse of their needs to see if that ever changes. Is there ever a time where they say, okay, so now I want to take this over on my own? Is that advisable? That does happen on occasion and then sometimes those people will either hire somebody to do it for them or try to actually do it themselves, but invariably if somebody tries to do it themselves, it ends up kind of stressing their bandwidth to where after a while they probably better serve by finding a vendor, whether it's us or somebody else. So where do you see the online marketing solution going in the future? I would say increasingly mobile, so much of our search behavior happens on our phones and tablets. Increasingly social, the percentage of consumer mind share that is happening on Facebook is just astronomical and in fact right now Facebook advertising is one of the most impactful value ads that you can engage in. The specificity with which you can reach the target markets and in terms of location and buying behaviors, it's almost scary. I know there's a lot of controversy right now about data privacy and how much does Facebook actually know about us and the answer is a lot and that's why when you look at your Facebook feed, there are ads that are almost eerily irrelevant to you and we actually play in that space too and our philosophy is this, if I'm going to see an ad in my Facebook feed, I'd rather it be relevant to me than not relevant, right? True but I mean it is a little concerning that you're able to determine what is relevant to me. Yeah and it's really going to be very interesting to see what happens in the future as that continues to evolve and that'll probably change but right now the luxury that it affords us is we're able to take a client and with a relatively nominal budget reach an incredibly specific group of people that are perfect for their product or service which is a really great service for a client but I see increasing engagement on the social front of things as being more and more important at a local level that is still sort of in its infancy here in Hawaii. The amount of clients that are really taking advantage of what's happening in social media is still relatively small. Isn't it right? I would say yeah. So what about the older folks, right? So we know that the young folks get the social media, they're on it, they live it. So what about us older folks that are not really in touch? What do you do for them? They're business owners and they need to take the leap into the next generation but what do you tell them to get comfortable with that? Yeah that's a great question. The best thing that we can do for somebody who is not native to the technology that is so important now is to really explain it in the simplest of terms that don't overall or confuse that client and our goal in that situation is really just to build the trust and win that trust from that client and allow us to sort of take the burden of that off of their shoulders and then do it for them without having them to really get too involved because many of them just simply don't have the interest to get involved too heavily with it and that's fine because a lot of what we do is very turnkey and we have the people to do it for you and that's kind of the point, right? So there's really something for everyone and depending on somebody's level of understanding or interest there's also something for everyone there in terms of how you relay the information so we do have actually many clients who have no interest in learning the digital landscape and we just simply do it all for them and all they have to do is run their business and grow their business which is really what they want to do anyway. I can imagine that's where you really do come in as that value for those who really just want to focus on their core business and their core functions and leave it to the professionals to to run with it but how do they are they able to observe it and appreciate it? Absolutely so we are we are really we value transparency of information and metrics. One of the true luxuries of online marketing is that you can track absolutely everything and that's both a blessing and a curse so over time we've developed infrastructure and built SaaS platforms that allow us to track very specifically all of the indices of measure that really matter to that client and put it all into one dashboard that they can go to and view anytime they want to really fully engage with the performance of that program to see how it's working for them. Great one last question for you. Where can our audience find Vivial Media in the community? Where are you guys? Where are we? You can find us on the web at Vivial.net. You could also visit us at 7-Eleven Copilante Boulevard suite 500. We love visitors. You can also call us at our local office at<PHONE_NUMBER>. Awesome thanks so much for joining us it was a lot of fun probably a space that I don't know a lot about but I appreciate your time and thanks for sharing with us. You can join us here every week on Thursdays at two o'clock. It's been great having John and his expertise. I wanted to thank the great production staff here in the studio and we look forward to seeing you again next week. Thank you Dylan for having me on the show.


My name is Jim Crawford and my background actually started in the textile industry here in North Carolina. I worked there 13 years in quality control, process improvement, and team facilitation. So the plant that I worked at is gone. So at this point I had to kind of do a reassessment of what I wanted to do and I remember sitting on my front porch with my wife and saying, you know, I had my degree in biology. I wandered off to other jobs because they paid well, but my passion was biology so I decided to go back to school and at this time for ScytheTech was offering its biotechnology program. So I went into that degree program and towards the end of it after my second year I got an internship with Wake Forest Regenerative Medicine and I was approached by a biotech startup company. So I joined a company that is called Carenetics. I joined them as their first hire. As a matter of fact, I think in part because of the wide skills and knowledge that I developed both from the industry before as well as at my Associates of Applied Science degree. My typical day, when I start out, I usually have a plan, but I have to be prepared to be very flexible in it. For instance, when I came in this morning we had some bad weather. I got in about an hour late, so I was a little behind. I have to be writing, have to develop a form for receiving samples from an outside manufacturer that's producing a gel made from the proteins that we make in the lab. So I am working at the computer with Excel and kind of developing a spreadsheet so that I can mark down the important things that have to be recorded on that form and signatures and sign-offs, weights, volumes, who gave it to me and how much and where it's going to be stored at at what temperature. So that was my first part of the morning. Then we realized that we have to send some samples out to a company where thinking of purchasing a machine that measures viscosity and we have to send them some of our samples. So we had to mix up samples of three different types of viscosities, solutions and two different types of proteins. So we have six vials that we had to prepare. So much of my afternoon has been over there doing the calculations, weighing out the different protein powders we have in order to get the mixtures that we want, adding the specific amount of water to that so that we have a solution or a gel that is in the right consistency and we'll pack that up and we'll ship that out. Tomorrow will be totally different.