Oh, and welcome to DataVersity Talks, a podcast where we discuss with industry leaders and experts how they had built their careers around data. I'm your host, Shannon Kemp, and today we're talking to a friend, Rodriguez, the data manager at the U.S. Department of Defense. With a robust catalog of courses offered on demand and industry-leading live online sessions throughout the year, the DataVersity Training Center is your launchpad for career success. Browse the complete catalog at training.dataversity.net and use code dbtalks for 20% off your purchase. Hello and welcome. My name is Shannon Kemp, and I'm the Chief Digital Officer at DataVersity, and this is my career in data at DataVersity Talks podcast dedicated to learning from those who have careers in data management to understand how they got there and to be talking with people who help make those careers a little bit easier. To keep up to date in the latest in data management education, go to DataVersity.net forward slash subscribe. And today we are joined by Efrain Rodriguez, the data manager at the U.S. Department of Defense. And normally this is where a podcast host would read a short bio of the guest, but in this podcast, your bio is what we're here to talk about. Efrain, hello and welcome. Hey, thank you very much for the invite. Everything is all good. So you're the data manager at the U.S. Department of Defense. So what does that mean? What is it you do? Interesting question actually. Combat support agencies and the DOD has what they call work roles and what they call job titles. So basically what they call a job role, a work role is related to the discipline that you're supporting. And what they assign is different job titles in terms of this is in what capacity you're supporting that particular role. So my work role is data manager, specifically collection data manager. In terms of my title, I am a data steward. And no different data steward across the private sector doing exactly the same role. But in my capacity as a data steward, I'm involved also into the entire life cycle of data from capturing the need of customers within DOD, even intelligence community at times, for a particular set of information, collecting, acquiring, procuring certain data, doing all the data flow portion and supporting the data flow governance to bring the data from the source to our data lake and ensuring that we answer the customer needs. My capacity as a data steward, for the most part was focusing into ensuring that the data that it was acquired, supported and addressed the needs of the warfighter, as well as intelligence community, but mostly making sure that we created a policy and law compliance framework to ensure that the data was properly used. It was freed up so people can use it in a compliant manner for most of all ensuring that it is the proper data at the proper moment and at the proper time. So that's pretty much the encompassing of the bigger scheme on the role. So as a data steward, my responsibility is lying at that particular capacity. Never at all moment I'll tell you that it's a really encompassing role.  Don't worry, these two shall pass. Just press on because it's really worth it. Oh, but I love it. I love the great advisor too. So that is a fascinating role. I'm sure that keeps you that keeps you very busy. So you know, tell me, is this what you wanted to be when you grew up? When you were when you were very young, you're thinking to yourself, I'm going to be a data manager, I'm going to be a data steward. No, not my long stretch. But when I was younger, particularly middle school, that's when I was kind of discover what I really wanted to do. I wanted to be an astronaut. So that was my goal. So when I was looking, I remember when I was in it was a freshman in high school, we went to Kennedy Space Center of all places in Florida, that NASA, and I started looking at the Visitor Center, we're all the buyers of all the astronauts are looking at the common theme. All of them are either very well versed in exporting to STEM fields. And or they were pilots for military. So knowing that I was on a pilot, the only chance that I had to do that was if I went deep into a career in STEM. So I went to school for electrical engineer. That's where my background is. I did apply for for the astronaut program back in Jesus Christ. I'm going to do myself. It will be 1997. So I decided to give it a try. And unfortunately, I was not selected. They were looking for it was mission specialist at a time. But that didn't define my goals of I like what I was doing. STEM was a really great field and a lot of growth, a lot of great opportunities to design to do things differently. So I started as a hardware engineer or many things. So I was working for a defense company that is based in it was based at a time in the Northeast. And they did my my work there was just designing systems that was designing receivers, radar systems, all components on computers and weapons systems as well. And I was pretty much creating the artifacts that were creating data. So that's how we think started in terms of my carrying that I was creating the system that were collected out in the first place, particularly receivers. It was then that I switched my gears and moved to word directly with the Department of Defense. So now I wasn't the provider of the equipment I was doing. I was the customer in this case in terms of now in the capacity, I started doing just analysis. So I was just a consumer and the user of the data. So I started looking at all the things that the data provided creating the reports disseminating those reports and showing the people understood what they were looking on in terms of what kind of value the data was providing. It was then that within the DOD I started moving up in the ranks and as an analyst and I move on to do engineering jump again, but a little bit different. In this case, it was in the data flow portion of the data life cycle. So I was focusing on how do I engineer, transform and load all the ETL in terms of how do I bring the data from the source to destination. And I started looking at gaps and as I realized that there's a lot of things that we needed to do in order to make that a more available and free to others to use. Then I switched out to a more operational and strategic approach in terms of how do I make this happen. Engineering was not the challenge. I recognized the most of the challenge that we had was because of compliance and mostly because of how do we govern the data in the first place. So that's where my feet went into my data store role that I'm sitting today. And even at this stage of the game, lot of things that I still learning, things that I recognize that are still long ways to go. The fact that we have a robust infrastructure toward the data becomes something that we just need to deal with. But at the same time, how do we ensure that we evolve this to support in the future? Big data is always growing. And I think that this is the same for everybody. In the Department of Defense, that's not an exception. Now we're talking about supplying the needs of over one million people, including civilians and military personnel all across the globe. How do we ensure that the data on the timeline matter at the same time, the proper data that they really need? So that's how I evolve all the way from an astronaut away to data steward in 30 seconds or less. But for the most part, I still consider that data management generally is a very encompassed discipline. It is a one discipline that incorporates not just only the engineering and the technology side, but also encompass the legal policy, human factories, including to that as well. And it's a very multi-discipline field. So there's a lot of growth potential opportunities there. And that's what I said. You know what? It's a place that I wanted to stay. I'm providing good value. I'm learning a lot. And no use only that. I'm seeing the fruits of the produce because of the sacrifices, the hard work that we've been doing over the last five, 10 years. We have a long ways to go. Absolutely. But I definitely take those as a challenge. And if I look forward to continue growing in this capacity and learning how data management and data governance can help DOD manage that as an asset and how it can even provide support to other fields, particularly when looking into data science methodologies, artificial intelligence, machine learning, which is one of the fields that I'm exploring right now. A really, really interesting field in which data management provides great value proposition. Yeah, I find it fascinating. You're actually the third person I've interviewed who started out wanting to be an astronaut and then went into STEM. I think it's so interesting. I definitely feel that STEM is a really unappreciated field. I think that that's something that we should continue fostering in the young generation because there's a lot of potential for growth. Not just only because you're building something, but you're learning as you move along. And you're part of an evolution. You're serving society in a way that STEM can only provide that stepping stone to get us to the next level. And I definitely recommend others to continue to follow that field. It's a very diverse and it will take you places. I admit that. You'll be surprised. Yeah. Let me ask you this too. You mentioned policies and privacy and governance. I imagine there's a lot of regulations that you have to follow. But is that all data governance? Is for you or are there other aspects that you use it for in your work with data? So I'll definitely would like to expand further into that portion just to clarify. And this is same everywhere. This is not only exclusive to the US Federal Government or Department of Defense. Policies, procedures, laws provide the boundaries of how far can we go to support a particular activity in a specific, excuse me, how do we use data to support a particular activity? So it is not a hindrance to the country. It is a way to establish a scope of the best way to use the data. Coming from an engineering background, when the world, when you have a hammer, the world is a nail for you. So I was approaching everything for engineering STEM, but when reality, it is a multi-discipline approach in order to properly support users of the data from the governance perspective, from the management perspective. Those are the things that I have to learn as I was continuing evolving into my career. And that is something that I definitely recommend people that want to get into this field is that get acquainted and at least cognizant on how does policies, how does these boundaries help shape how the use of data is more effectively done, but for the most part, because we are a government entity, we are held to a higher standard. We have to protect not just only privacy of citizens, but also abide by the Constitution of the United States. So for us, it's the utmost importance to, yes, preposition the data to be used to establish all the infrastructure to make it happen in a proper manner, but within the boundaries of the law. And that is very important. It's the most almost priority that we always do. So we are accountable for that. We have audits on that. We be bored on that. And we ensure that we would, no matter what, we'd never step out of those boundaries. And although sometimes you can be seen as hindrance, you'd be surprised how well those boundaries establish and shape. How can you evolve tradecraft moving into the future when you're starting to sell new technologies? Now we're talking about creating new analytics, artificial intelligence, machine learning, how these boundaries and policy help shape a proper governance for all these new methods by minimizing variability in data. And that is a data management, data quality issue, data quality feature. So you can see how these policies help shape the usage of data. And I think these are very important. And that's something that we take to heart. I love that perspective on data governance that is really something that I think people struggle to find and they do find it a hindrance. So I think that is such great advice and a great way to look at it. And it's something that is something of value in terms of now you understand the rationale, why you're doing where you're doing because now you have a different vantage point to see exactly what is happening. You know, just only the technology side, but definitely a multi-discipline approach. And I definitely can be inside. There's a lot of growth and improvement on that area for everybody. And although you might see new policies coming in, you got GDPR, HIPAA for health records here in the United States. These are just only things that, although my sunlight restriction, these are the ones that will make your life simpler because you know what you're getting into and they're clear expectations of how you're going to be going to data moving forward. Makes sense. So with all this work with data, especially for so many years as you've been involved in it, you know, what is your definition of data? Data is considered, I consider data as an asset in terms of it provides the raw materials to build up bigger and better things. Data is the building block of information because you add context to that. Data blocks, context equals information. And that's what we, that's our better matter. That's what we use for a living. That's how we provide to our customers. So we had to treat data as an asset, something that we use as a building block for bigger things. So what we want to make sure is that when we gather this information, we acquire these data. We treat it as such that we establish the initial boundary, the scope and how properly use it. And most importantly, how can we widely be leveraged by others? So it doesn't become siloed into a particular category or section, something that can be used by everybody else. So from my perspective, I always see data as an asset, no different than when you have steel to build a car, data becomes my steel to be my products that the DOD uses worldwide. Perfect. So, and you kind of answered this a little bit already, but let me ask you specifically, you know, do you see the importance of data management and the number of jobs working with data increasing or decreasing over the next 10 years? And why? So actually, that's an interesting question. I will see that as we continue evolving in the use of data moving forward and we create new tradecraft from using the data, I consider that the data management and data governance feel it becomes a major relevance. Not just only because it is the one who provides and preposition all the artifacts required to use the data, treat the data as an asset and also to govern it, but mostly because it is instrumental to evolve technologies moving forward. In terms of growth, I started really seeing it. I mean, one of the things that you start seeing, for example, on the new paradigm in terms of using AI and machine learning, the fact that they focus so much on the usage of the data, they realize, oh wait, there are certain things that I have to understand on the data that I need to do on the data before even thinking about creating algorithms in the first place. And this is what data management provides. This is how the need of data management and governance establishes those, the established frame of references for all these technologies to flourish, but also the fact that now we are evolving data management into different fields that I see definitely growth into that. One of the things that I would like to start, I think I'm going to start seeing is that how data management is being included in curriculums like college, for example, and even the potential of certain skills or transfer of skills that data management provides at lower levels of abstraction. And you start seeing these right now, for example, when you go to K to 12, the first thing that you see to issue is the scientific method. Look at how the scientific method in terms of the hypotheses, the evidence, all the workflow, all the structure, you still follow the fundamentals of data management.  So I think that there's a growth in education. There's a lot of emphasis now in data governance. I already seen people already stating they're making grad studies in data governance, which is something unheard of when I started this career over many decades ago. But in terms of the use as itself, now we want to incorporate, grow what we have today in data management. And I think that that's going to be the big, the big ticket moving forward, particularly data quality. I think that data quality is something that we're going to start seeing a lot of uptick just because there's a lot required to get the data right before you use it. You heard the story of 80% of my effort is just to clean up and ensure that the quality of my data is enough for me to spend the rest of 20% of my time using it. Now we're going to be trying to evolve these to make it a more streamlined way to do it. And that is the part that I think that there's going to be a great growth coming forward in the next decade. I definitely consider that we'll start seeing this a little more incorporated earlier in the career. You start seeing probably on the grads starting notions of these kind of things, just because it'll be incorporated as part of their curriculums on all their coursework within data science, for example. And it's a good start. But again, you grow in this career, you learn from this career. And as a evolving field, I consider that the growth also comes in terms of the personal self-growth, taking your courses, getting your certifications, networking with others, noticing and acknowledging that the fact that you hire people to do these and you look at the job openings everywhere and you start seeing an uptick in data hires in terms of these are the things that are going to support the future. One big example that I saw there today was even within the government, agencies are going through digital transformation these days. And on the utmost foundation for digital transformation is how do we position data management culture that would allow this transformation to be supported. And as you continue going into that direction, definitely love to grow with great opportunities for people to move laterally or sometimes vertically, there's a lot of growth. It's just a matter of now, why is your flavor, what's your taste? More and more companies are considering investing in data literacy education, but still have questions about its value, purpose and how to get the ball rolling. Introducing the newest monthly webinar series from Dataversity, Elevating Enterprise Data Literacy, where we discuss the landscape of data literacy and answer your burning questions. Learn more about this new series and register for free at Dataversity.net. That makes a lot of sense and you've given a little bit of advice already in a couple of different points. So any additional advice you'd give to people to looking to get into career in data management, maybe specifically data stewardship or to address data quality? So in general, and I'm going to be from the data management perspective, I'll try to be a little more inclusive. I always single out data quality because I think that there is a portion of data management that drives a lot of growth, a lot of usage of the data and preposition the initial baseline for the data to be usable. But for the most part, if someone wants to start a career in data management, the first thing that I recommend is get a mentor. Identify someone who you can identify that follow a path of things that you like most because they have to be in a particular discipline. But at the same time, you learn the life cycle of data all the way from establishing the need, procuring the data, processing the data, storing the data, even transporting the data itself. And there's a lot of things in between that data management does provide support. So getting a mentor in any of these at least helps you notionally what portions of the life cycle you're more interested in the best. And once you start seeing the themes that you like the most, then that's the part that you get a little further educated. There is a notion that you want to be deep, knowledgeable in one field, but broad enough on others so you have better context. And this is the part that is the only way to better, at least from a DOD perspective, help me out shape my career moving forward, being cognizant about the entire life cycle itself. If you look at the Dhamma book, for example, you start seeing the Dhamma wheel itself, all the different portions of it, the expectations do not become everything, but choose the field that is more appealing to you, that allows you to grow, but at the same time challenge you as well. And that goes to my second piece of advice. Oftentimes, the only things that people want to avoid, but at the same time, there's a one that become more rewarding. Data quality is hard. It's not for us. Everybody can tell exactly the same thing, but you start getting into a group of things in terms of, okay, I might not be able to solve all the problems, but I would like to contribute to maturing this straight graph moving forward for the next that comes along, gets a little bit better than what I had left something a little bit better the way I found it before. I only learned data quality. That's something that I see that a great area of growth, just because that is the foundation, foundational of the usage of that itself.  Oh, geez, that is very important network. You'll be surprised, you're not on island, you'll be surprised that it takes a village to get that a match to work right. And getting a support network of people that think just like you, from other industries, from government, from pharmaceutical healthcare, you'll be surprised how they tackle the same problem from different perspective, or how much you learn from their experiences. So even though I might not relate to much for the person who does data management for pharmaceutical company, I do recognize that they have an approach that even my scale, if I tried a little bit different in my particular government specific needs. So this is the part of network is important. You start learning from knowledge, you start in getting your name out there and say, look, I'm willing to share my war stories. Let's share our so we can learn from one another. These are things that probably want to be written in books, but you start building your own book of knowledge. And that's the part that you add an extra tool to your toolbox to be more successful. So now they have your network, this is the part of C's opportunities. Sometimes it's just to be in the right place in the right time and getting your name out there means a lot. When they start seeing the acumen that you have provided, the artifacts that you share with others. And again, it sounds a little bit greedy at times, but at the same time, it helps evolve. This is the part that now you start seeing other activities that you say, you know what, I might already done my portion here. How can I go to the next level? And because of all the diverse interdisciplinary activities within data management, there's great potential for growth, great potential opportunities to learn something new. And most of all, evolve the field moving forward. I definitely consider that as an extra piece of advice, if possible, is how can you contribute to the craft? I've seen a lot of great consultants out there, probably during the diversity conferences, that they show their experiences and they tell the stories and they provide that insight that might allow others to use and flourish and evolve the field in a different way in a better way. How do we interact with different disciplines with your organization? Data management is not just only business, it's IT, it's people, it's culture. This is the part that you want to be well-rounded into that. So don't focus only on technology, focus on culture, focus on people. People always come first, listen to their needs to ensure that you understand what they're coming from. But most of all, how do you get those experiences out so you can tell your processes, your frameworks, your methodologies to better provide a better product and a service as a whole. So I think that the last thing that I would say in terms of advice to you moving career in this data management field is that same with any other field related to science, just always an evolution. So you might not see now the fruits of your sacrifice or hard work, but down the road, that foundational work that you've done will help others to build upon that and do a better and involve the trachea for data management forward. Be good instead of data governance. This is the part that sometimes it will help address some of the needs that you have. So you don't have to be involved in data governance to be a data governor. I think everybody's empowered to do that on their own way. And I definitely tell, own it, commit to your role, and make sure that people understand that, look, I might not have all the answers, but I have my ways to get the answer, to get it done and provide a top quality product move forward. It is rewarding. It is really exciting. And I definitely think that it's a long journey of learning. So if you're looking into something like that, you're on the right track. Data management is for you. What amazing advice. I just really appreciate that. It's so good. And so many different points within there. It has been my experience, one of my favorite parts of being so involved with the data community is that everybody is so willing to network and is so willing to help each other out. And really just the camaraderie and the support of each other has just, it always blows me away. And it never stops surprising me and just, it's just so much joy in that. And I've seen you at our conferences and of course networking and sharing your knowledge as well. And being here, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. This is really, it's really, really nice. And I heard in there too, to follow your passion and then push yourself to learn more. Following your passion doesn't mean it's easy. I would never say that. But one of the things that I recognize, and I actually noticed that as I was participating on some of these activities, most people are bright new into these. You start seeing when they show hands at the conferences, like more than half people are bright new into data mesh and data governance. So there's something appealing to that. There's value for us. You start seeing that this is not a niche market. You start seeing that it's something that is widely adopted by many companies, many disciplines. And again, the government in which I provide support as well. But at the same time, this new generation of data governors, data managers, that they come along, they're looking up to us, who will be doing this for some time to, to share those stories. So that's the reason why this little community, which is not that little anymore, you're surprised how many people start showing up and doing it at different capacities, or they don't know that we're doing it, which is surprising, like I didn't know that that was called data quality. Yeah, that is called data quality, but you didn't know that. But at the same time, that's again, the relevancy of how these feel is growing. As you start seeing many people from many industries entertain and government, you name it. I think that now it's up to everyone to, to make sure that we continue growing this discipline and definitely maturing it to, to make sure that it become as it is that data becomes what is supposed to be a great asset to deal with and a great asset to treat All right, well, I'm going to ask you one more question here. Clarify a little point there. You know, I'm hearing it a lot that the people aspect is the most important and, and because you do need to interact with so many people being in data. How do you build that skill? So many people in data are introverts, right? And it struggle with that a bit. So is there a way to build that skill? And is it listening? You mentioned listening. You'd be surprised. Yeah, I think that, yeah, I hear you. I think that this is not about introvert or extrovert mostly that it is. What is the bottom line? When you're in a position that you consider that your transfer of skill used to be soft skills going today might not be of value, might not be adequate to support a particular activity, understand that you're not alone doing this, that you surround yourself with people that have empowered you to learn these things and you continue doing it, but not seen as a hindrance. I consider that even though you could consider as an introvert or they consider themselves not as outspoken, they consider like great value in support of customer needs. I would say if you have to learn how to deal with people, how to talk to that, you'd be surprised how having that at least that technical common frame of reference helps a lot to communicate because one thing that management is that although it's a broad field, it's a well bounded field of knowledge. So when you predicate your needs, your requirements, we start speaking the same language. So it's a little bit easier when you speak the same language to communicate, to convey information, to listen better and to capture what this essential need is. If I feel that in terms of you being an introvert and how to deal with these customers, it comes from the bottom line of you're here to help them out. Listen, ensure that you understand and repeat back what they're telling you. So the clarification of the needs are well addressed, but this is not something that you're learning books. I believe that is how do you work around that particular uniqueness of your character helps you out to make more effective. And this is the part that it might be a great asset. You might be the best person to do this, it's just a matter of looking at the upside off, take these as a unique talent that nobody has, and how can I make this as a potential game changer for my particular corporation? I mean, we don't want to have the same kind of people doing calcics and things. The one of the things I appreciate in this community is that the diversity of the people that we see, getting introverts, extroverts, people that never done STEM in their lives. Yet, when we go into the management that are governance, we all speak the same language, we hear each other really well. And those things that you consider could be of hindrance. Look at as an asset, use that as your tool for success. And I think that as the moment you recognize that is not a limitation, that it is a potential to make things better, you start more, you feel more empowered to own and commit your role and your position, and you establish yourself as the accountable person, the responsible person to make success happen. And again, there are other skills, not just the introverts, the extroverts, things that, for example, are essentials. Even briefing skills, writing skills, because you have to communicate with different levels of management. In my case, different levels of responsibility. Sometimes you address a general, you address the chiefs that are officers, which have different levels of responsibilities. And mostly because they have a different bottom line, because of their position, you have to reconcile that somehow. And that is a skill that you still need to hone more than the introvert, the extroverts. How do you reconcile different bottom lines to ensure that you ensure mission success? When you go to the CDO, the CDO level, CIOs, how do you recognize business with IT? How do I recognize my customers? How do I differentiate my customers from my user base? Something as simple as that. These are the little things that when you start working with them, you start recognizing, I had to communicate a little bit different with that person because their bottom line is different. I had to recognize that I had to report and write a little bit different because their needs are different. And these are things that, yeah, you can learn in class, but also, like I said, going back to someone by advice, having a good mentor helps a lot because it will help you out of how do you properly convey the information? And most of all, how do you more effectively impact their mission and their bottom line? And one of the things that I learned over the years, like make their mission your mission. And that's how you integrate yourself. How you're making the showing that you care. Like, if it's important to you, it is important to me, Sarah, man, whatever. So bottom line is, I think that it's not a hindrance. I think that's something that you don't learn, but you also take as an asset moment forward. There are other things that you compliment on that. And that's package of different tools. That's why it makes you a better data manager, a better data governor. Such great advice. And I love that quote. If you make their mission your mission. Such a key phrase there in the whole thing. Oh, such a good device. I'm afraid you do not disappoint. I knew that I wanted to interview you because this has just been amazing. Anything else you want to add before we as we wrap it up? Sometimes if you feel that things are going to you're not going your way, understand that these two shall pass. So hanging there. Things are going to get better. Use your network. Continue learning. Be there for others. The most important will help grow this field bigger than it is today. And I definitely would like to appreciate what you guys do in that adversity to make this happen. And how do you provide venues and engagement activities for others to learn from others, but also to grow. And I think that that is very important. So I appreciate this opportunity. Thank you for the invite. I definitely look forward to continue engaging with the organization. I definitely continue seeing the big faces here and grow and evolve and continue to move forward with my career. And hopefully I can be a value of others. If I can be of a few of others that are on my line, just let me know how can I help. I'm here for you guys the same way that I was helping out on my skills. So thank you. Thank you very much. Oh, thank you. I mean, this has been so good. And thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. I think a lot of people will find everything very valuable. And for all of our listeners out there, if you'd like to keep up to date in the latest podcast and in the latest in data management education, you may go to dataversity.net slash subscribe until next time. Afrain, thank you. All right. Take it easy. Thank you for listening to Dataversity Talks brought to you by Dataversity. Subscribe to our newsletter for podcast updates and information about our free educational articles, blogs and webinars at dataversity.net forward slash subscribe.


I think we live in a world today where there's maybe not a lack of money or technology, but a lack of imagination, how we want the future world to look like. And we've heard all the other speakers. I think it's very, very interesting. If we can't imagine it, we won't get there. We first have to construct it in our brain, think about it, try it out to prototype in order to get there. Our brain first has to imagine it. We want to take you on a little tour to sort of feel how that future can look like, how it can feel like, how we can experience. And most of all, how do we get there? Well, how I got there is very simple. I put some people in a smart room ten years ago with a pizza roll line and a dead line, and we got to work. So this is the studio in Rotterdam in the Netherlands, a team of designers and engineers, project managers, an old glass factory that renovated, where we make these landscapes of the future.  I think that's just a great tool to make those ideas come true. But what I really think what drives me personally is not so much about beautifying or decorating, and using design to sort of glamorize the existing world. It's about reforming. So world economic reform, and the thing to take in Geneva, which organizes Davos, and I'm part of that as a young global leader, then research what are the top ten skills you and I need to become successful. So this is the bottom 20. I'm going to give you the shortcut here. So look at this. Number three, creativity. Number two, critical thinking. Number one, problem solving, complex problem solving. All the things, a robot or a computer are really bad. And so this is very interesting. As technology is taking over our taxi driver, our garbage collection, our accountancy, our energy bill, does that mean that we will become robots? No. It means that our human skills, our desire to learn, our desire to create, our desire to share, why are we here today? These are the human skills computers are really bad at. So I would believe that as we will live in this hyper technological world, our creativity and our creative thinking is the true capital. And so the moment you invest in those skills and you value those skills, you become future proof. So you will go to a design museum on them, for example, not only because it's a great museum with a history and it's interesting, but it trains certain parts of your brain that separation from the machines. Clean air, clean water, clean energy, clean space. These, for me, are the values that we have to raise. Everything you design, a car, a city, a jacket, food, needs to have those values, always forget. So let's talk about clean water. I'm from Holland, from the Netherlands. And as you may know, we live below Singapore. My Chinese friends, when they visit, they say, you are crazy. Who lives below sea level? Just move to Germany. There are no higher ground. But we don't. And more than a thousand years, we've developed a system of irrigation, of dykes, of water management to create our own home. So it's very interesting. Our whole landscape is designed and is managed in a way. Without it, we would literally drown. But sometimes, even the Dutch, forget. And so the water council, who manages all the water management, came to me and asked, can you make something to create water awareness, rising sea level, the importance of climate change? And therefore, we created what you see here, a combination of lens and lenses, which shows how high water level would be. We can stop. We all sort of know that the world is changing. And as Sir David also said in his lecture, we know the numbers and somehow the numbers, they don't help us change enough. So we started to visualize it and started to flow public spaces all around the world. Pretty spooky. Spacey, yeah. What I feel about it is a bit underwater, because you're under a layer. Yeah, pretty, I think. With the waves above us. And it's magnificent. Of course I know we're under sea level, but as you said, it wouldn't be so nice if I suddenly felt this. 60,000 people showed up in one night in Amsterdam. And this is very interesting. How do we create experiences where people are not just scared of the future but are curious and come together and some people are a bit scared because they experienced floods in 1953 and almost floods in 1995. And they left. They didn't like it at all. But most people were more optimistic and were talking about that. Should we build floating cities? Or can we generate energy from the changing in times? But most of all the notion of wonder. I want to create places where people somehow feel connected to this new reality, to this world where we live in. And I think the power of these eyes and imagination is a great way to activate that. Clean air. Our cities in a weird, weird, weird, weird way have become machines that are killing us. For me there's no easier way of saying, if you live downtown Dublin or London or here in Beijing next to a highway, it's the same 17, 17 cigarettes per day as you pass to me in hell. Without the pleasure of the dignity. And it's a bad deal. When did we say yes to death? So I think we all have a right for clean air. Yes. We have a right. That should be our human right. But we also have a sort of role for clean air. It's not just waiting for government or policy long term. Which is true. But at the same time we should act today. So I'm not a minister. I cannot say 20 billion euro in green energy today. This is upsetting my scope. I cannot do that. I'm a designer. I'm an engineer. What can I do? And looking outside my window in Beijing five years ago, I remembered being, you know, like, what's this?  It becomes, this is not rhetorical by the way. What happens when you polish a plastic balloon with your hand? It becomes static, thank you. It becomes static electrified. It becomes quick. It attracts your hair. And I have always been amazed by that. You know, it's like a gift from planet Earth, from nature, from science. Whatever you use that principle to literally build the largest small vacuum cleaner in the world, which starts up into the air, cleans it, and releases it. So this is how these projects start. Unhindered by any kind of knowledge. So you put some smart people in a room. You get the experts. What it is, but it has to be ready in four months. And that's what we did. So we built the first one in Rotterdam. It sucks up 30,000 cubic meter per hour, capturing the P and 2.5 B in 10 nanoparticles, running on solar energy, and therefore releasing clean air. So we have parts which are 20 to 70 percent more clean than the rest of the city. The city becomes a machine that kills us. Let's build a machine that can help us, that can heal us. That's how it's called. How much? How much? And it became part of their world's walk. Long-term investment in green energy, electrical cars, more bicycles. But also, bottom-up solutions for today. Local clean air parts. One tower is not the solution of the whole city. Of course not. But by creating a place where you can share the difference, where you can show the difference, is a way to have a top-down bottom-up, meeting in the middle. This is in Krakow in Poland. One of the most polluted cities in Europe. As this project was growing, in Mexico, China, India, Poland. This is a beautiful one in Poland. Beautiful snow. And this is very interesting, because I arrived at the day of the opening. And on the left you see Nick, he's the project manager. And he was running the show. So he picked me up at the airport. And I'm like, okay, so what's up? Yeah, it's all good. Beautiful snow. So we arrived outside. And I saw tens of those dogs hanging out around the tower. And they looked really happy. And it was like this weird David Linge movie I walked into. Like this secret meeting I wasn't invited for. So I'm like, what are these dogs doing here? And my project manager says, I don't know. I haven't noticed it. I'm like, well, we had three hours before opening. And we did. It's very interesting how you have to keep on looking. You get these little presents, but you can't see them. And we realized after two, three hours, of course, dogs have a very high sense of smell. And they can smell, what is it, 200 times better than a human being. So they were suffering from the smog, like way more. And somehow, somewhere, they could smell the clean air from far, far away. They would start to abandon their owner and hang out around the tower. And you see, that one was really happy. It was the tail. This one tries to be happy, but it's too small. So if animals can sense what is good for us, why can humans not? We learn this is making a smog. This is the stuff from the polluted, urban skies. We believe waste should not exist. William and Donald went to cradle 30 years ago. Hello? Waste for one should be food for the other. Somehow we never learned. This book is in my brain. So I looked at this incredible, disgusting case of death, put it on a microscope, and realized 42% is carbon. Carbon on the high pressure you get. Diamonds, that's interesting. Inspired by that, we compressed it by hand for 30 minutes and started to make swamp-free rings. So we're sharing a ring. You donate 1,000 cubic meters of clean air to the city where the towers are. And this was very interesting, because at that time, in this time, in this world, two balloons is still for free. In a way, we're talking about carbon tax, it will come one day, but two balloons is still for free. So we had a budget problem. Everybody was interested. But what is the price of clean air? Nobody knows. So as we put this on Kickstarter, crowdfunding campaign, and so the money that we made, the finance we made, helped to build more swamp-free towers. And that is really powerful. That somehow the waste was the activator, it was the enabler. But besides the money, because of the way money is everywhere, it was community. A couple of weeks later, these photos were sent to us Tuesday morning, 8 a.m., where he proposed us to her with the swamp-free ring. As a sign of beauty, as a sign of hope. And this is not accurate. New York Times validated this real wedding couple.  She said yes to him, not really, but to him. I don't know, that lady is on the top. And this is really beautiful. So yes, we need science, we need money, we need technology. Our only money, will just make us lazy. We're not janitors. We're not just maintaining anything. There should also be the notion of love, of something that excites you.  And I think that's really important the moment you connect those two worlds of science, technology, with poetry and storytelling, you create impact. Green energy. Bright Holland, Rotterdam, my own hometown. As I said before, we live below sea level. This is our Eiffel Tower. This is our Chinese wall. This is... What's Holy in Dublin? Come on, what's Holy in Dublin? What's the most iconic? Guinness, no, that's not Guinness. Okay, Guinness, fine. A control capital next year, Galway, that's her library. That's her library. Surely, we are not allowed to touch, but because of rising sea level, renovation, it was neither renovation and the Minister of Infrastructure came to me and said, this is not just a landscaping machine. Can you help us to show the beauty of this icon? We looked at what was already there. History. Built rock by rock. Hand, hand made, you know. Crazy, beautiful. 16 of these flunk gates were standing there which opened and closed the walls of water. In this veil, we died. Built by hand in 1932, a near-closer berg. The first architect was invented or invited by the Dutch government to think aesthetically about functional objects. And he was also the grandfather of Rem Colas, the famous Dutch architect. We decided to renovate them, make them look like temples again. But also wanted to do something with light, with energy, poetry, all these great words. And then the municipality came in and said, that's all great, beautiful, but no maintenance. We're like, what? No maintenance. When you use a lot of technology, it's going to break down, the salt, the rain, you have to shut down the road, forget it.  And on the windy Thursday evening we were there as we were walking on this very cold diet we realized, of course, there's a really light present on this highway, which is the light of the, it's very good, that two meters of two days to figure that one out. The light of the cars. That's interesting. Inspired by the wind of the butterfly, reflection, headlights dragging our minister of infrastructure into the story and daytime, no solar panel. The vision of the headlights creates an energy neutral landscape and this is permanent, you can visit it every night. It's just like really these kind of projects are very intense collaboration in this case with Hygiene, one of the largest infrastructure companies in the Netherlands, 100,000 people. Not a company which has the billions of euros R&D money on the bank like BMW or Tesla, but seeing how we realized they needed to invest in new ideas to survive and they team up with people like me to make these kind of projects happen together. Last one. What are we looking at? I'm curious if you know this one. What are we looking at? It's a good answer, but it's the wrong one. Guys, I showed it to you in the list at the beginning. Come on. A little bit more specific, what kind of? I'm not gonna say it. So what is the thing in the middle? That's the earth. Okay, I'm spoiling it. So what's the stuff around it? Satellites. Very good. This is the 8.1, or it's actually very bad, but the answer is good. This is the 8.1 million kilo of space junk which is currently floating around our universe. So somehow we're not satisfied ruining our planet earth. We just sort of keep on continuing outside our earth atmosphere. Polo-8, Sputnik, pieces of satellites and missiles started to collide and created a layer of junk. Tiny particles, although very small have an incredible high speed and therefore are like malls when they hit existing satellites and become a threat for our day-to-day communication. The future with 5G and more backing and no more internet and no more Instagram. So we started to steam up with ASA launching the Spaceways Lab to visualize, capture and upside. For 20 years we really smartly realized what we live in a world where the pollutant is for free and cleaning up is not fun. How can we change that? So we started to track to visualize where the spaceways real time is above your head. And everybody sort of agrees that a net and with a small cube satellite, 20 nets like a spider web to capture the space junk is the most realistic solution. Not proven yet, but the expert world from ASA and NASA says that we have a big problem like ok this is all great but nobody wants to pay. Cleaning up is not fun like when you were a boy or girl and your mom says and your dad says clean up your room he's like yeah whatever I'll have my ice cream I'll watch my television I'll have my little popcorn cleaning up is not fun and I think this was really interesting because they're like super smart but what I can do is add a new perspective a new dimension so we said ok once you've captured it maybe it's not a problem but an ingredient can be used in 3D print houses on the moon which NASA has already scheduled to do but it's just shipping very expensive stuff from Earth all the way up. Website light or here once in a controlled re-entry wave it hits near the atmosphere what happens then is burns so that's interesting waste is light can we use that to create from space waste artificial shooting stars as a replacement for fireworks and the fingers yes we can Dubai is spending 8.1 million euro per year on fireworks and then 17 million euro fireworks traditional fireworks very polluting people lose their eye etc so what we're doing is saying just take that budget and spend it on this clean up space and you have a new way of fireworks and they're almost saying yes that's really interesting to conclude I talked about clean air clean water clean energy clean space and maybe for some of you what you mentioned in the soviet time like this perfect world a rainbow in the sky that we will never ever reach and I don't think that's true and that's not the reason why I'm doing this I believe in prototype a term coined by Kevin Kelly in the founder of the wire magazine where we prototype where we learn where we're gonna make a mistake where we're gonna fail where we're gonna learn from that again and we're gonna upgrade and somehow find a way of making it happen it's not about being right but it's about realizing that we have to invest in new ideas to survive we have to trigger that imagination of how we want that future world to look like and that starts today not tomorrow alright thank you


Move on to end training. There are many nonsensical myths, urban legends and fables online about narcissists. One of the most prominent is that the narcissists have a special gaze.  There's also shoddy pseudoscience perpetrated by alleged scholars. And so lately the study published saying and the study discovered that narcissists have special eyebrows. They have very thick and special eyebrows. Yes, I do, but many narcissists don't trust me. I have a database of 1800. So there's this pseudoscience was published and it won the ignoble price.  The ignoble prize is prize given to utterly inane, idiotic and outlandish studies published. And so this is one of them and it had won the ignoble prize. Many, many of these stories about body language, about gaze, about the eyes of the narcissists, the eyebrows of the narcissists, even I have read analysis of the genitalia of narcissists. I'm kidding or not. Many of these are not grounded in any research or studies. They are anecdotal and even then the anecdotes are clearly projection.  You want to believe that the narcissists is demonic and soulless and so on and so forth. So you do. However, there's one myth, one ostensible myth, one urban legend which seems to be quite true. It is the persistent claim by victims that they had been brainwashed by narcissists, that the narcissists made them feel unreal, estranged from themselves, alienated, that they felt depersonalized and they realized that they felt that they were becoming a figment of the narcissists mind, a real extension, that they lost voluntary control of their actions, choices and decisions. This is a persistent claim by many victims and I think it's a real one. I think it starts with the grooming and the love bombing. I think what the narcissists does starting with these phases, he engenders a dissociative state in the target, in the would be a source of narcissistic supply or future potential intimate partner. When the narcissists interacts with you, he causes you to dissociate. He does this using intermittent reinforcement, trauma bonding, approach avoidance, there are many techniques, verbal abuse, the narcissist uses a multiplicity of techniques and then makes you dissociate, causes you to dissociate. It's a little like hypnosis. Technically, I think when you're interacting with the narcissist in many cases, it would qualify as a hypnotic session, you're under hypnosis. This is especially easy to achieve, to accomplish with borderlines and co-dependence. They even go into these trans-like states, co-dependence and borderline, go into this hypnotic, trans-like states, even in therapy, because these kind of people relegate, transfer the regulation of their emotions and their moods to their intimate partners. The borderline tells the intimate partner, please regulate my emotions, co-dependence says my mood depends on you. So a lot of the functions that are intrinsic and internal in healthy people are performed by the intimate partners of borderlines and co-dependence, so they have a lot of power. They have an inordinate amount of power over the intimate partner. And the narcissist and of course the psychopath, they abuse this power, they leverage it to create this trans-like state of hypnosis. And the clinical way they do this, the technical way they do this, is called end training. And I haven't seen a single video online about this. I haven't seen a single video explaining that the narcissist uses end training to brainwash his intimate partner and to induce a trans-like hypnotic state in her, which is very long and permanent and which causes feelings of amnesia, depersonalization and derealization. In other words, cause massive dissociation in the victim. And to explain to you what is end training, I'm going to quote a length from a book called The Brain's Way of Healing. It was written by Norman Deutsch, D-O-I-D-G-E. He's a medical doctor. Listen well and this segment, this excerpt that I'm going to read, is about music. But in your mind, when I talk about music, replace the word music with codependent. And you will see how this applies perfectly to the experience you have had in an intimate relationship with the narcissist. So Deutsch writes, brains can study show that when the brain is stimulated by music, its neurons begin to fire imperfect synchrony with it. End training. End training is the practice of modifying one's brain waves to a desired frequency. And when the brain listens to music, it entrains with the music it hears. This happens because the brain evolved to reach out into the world. And the ear works as a transducer. Transducers transform energy from one form into another. For instance, a loudspeaker transforms electrical energy into sound. The cochlea inside our ear transforms patterns of sound energy from the external world into patterns of electrical energy that the brain can use internally. So the narcissist speech, the narcissist speech creates in you electrical waves, creates neuro electricity and neurochemistry in your brain.  This is the power of psychotherapy. We do the same in psychotherapy. We reach into your mind and we rearrange it. We help you to rearrange it. We help you to make sense of the world. Of the world. Narcissist does the same. And then training is when the physical brain electrical frequencies align themselves with outside sound stimuli. Sound stimuli like music or like the narcissist speech. I continue from the book. Even though the form of energy changes, as I just said, the information carried by the wave patterns is often present. Since neurons fire in unison to music, music is a way to change the rhythms of the brain. Again, replace the word music with the narcissist words. So the narcissist words change the rhythms of your brain. An expert, I'm continuing from the book, an expert in the neuroplasticity of sound, Dr. Nina Kraus of Northwestern University and her lab colleagues recorded the sound waves given off by a Mozart serenade. They also placed an electrical sensor on the person's scalp to record his brain's waves as he listened to Mozart. Brain waves are the electrical waves produced by millions of neurons working together in time. And then what they did in the laboratory, they played back the patterns of the brain waves firing.  Amazingly, they found that the sound waves from the Mozart piece and the brain waves that they triggered looked the same. They even found that the brain waves in the brain stem sounded the same as the music that triggered them. Neurons can be entrained by a variety of non-electrical stimuli, including light and sound. These effects can be demonstrated using an EEG. Many kinds of sensory stimulation can radically alter the frequency of brain waves. For example, in a hyper-excitable brain, as in some cases of photosensitive epilepsy, strobe lights flashing at about ten times a second can cause large numbers of neurons to fire synchronously. A victim may have a seizure, lose consciousness and start driving out of control. Music can cause seizures as well.  No wonder people move to the beat of a song. Much of the brain, including the motor cortex, is entrained to that beat. But entrainment also happens between people. When musicians jam, their dominant brain waves begin to entrain with one another. In 2009, the psychologist Ulman Lindeberger and his colleagues hooked nine pairs of guitarists up to EEGs while they played just together. The brain waves of each pair began to entrain together to synchronize their dominant neuronal firing rates. No doubt this is part of what musicians getting into the groove is all about. But the study also showed that entrainment didn't occur only between musicians. Different regions of musicians' brains synchronized as well.  This is what happens to you with the narcissist. The narcissist entrains you.  His brain in a way takes over your brain, which is a great definition of a hypnotic trance. You enter his mind and you become a captive and a hostage inside his mind via the process of entraining.  Different regions of individual musicians' brains synchronized as well so that overall many more areas of the brain showed the dominant frequency. Not only were the musicians playing together in an ensemble, the coordinated ensembles of the neurons within each player's brain were playing together with the ensembles of neurons in their fellow musicians' brains. Because so many brain disorders are caused when the brain loses its rhythm and fires in an offbeat or disrhythmic way, music therapy is especially promising for these conditions. The rhythms of music medicine can provide a noninvasive way to get the brain back on beat. Kraus and others have shown that these subcortical brain areas which were once thought to lack plasticity are in fact quiet neuroplastic. Different rhythms of neuronal activity correspond to different mental states. When a person is sleeping, for instance, the dominant rhythm that is the brainwaves within the highest amplitude on an EEG are those that are firing one to three brain waves per second, one to three megahertz. When a person is awake and in a calm focus state, the brain wave frequency is faster, about 12 to 15 hertz. As she concentrates on a problem, the 15 to 18 hertz waves are dominant, and when she is worrying about a problem in anxious, the waves increase to 20 hertz. Normally our brain rhythms are set by a combination of factors, external stimulation, our level of arousal and our conscious intentions, for example, to focus on a problem or to go to sleep. Within the brain are multiple pacemakers that like a conductor generate the timing of these rhythms. But with neuroplastic training, we can develop some control over the brain rhythms. Neurofeedback trains a person whose brain rhythms are of control to control them. So it is excellent for people with attention or sleep problems or a noisy brain in general. This is a great description of entraining. And the narcissist's verbal abuse may actually be a form of entraining, a form of brainwashing. So I recommend that you read the book The Brain's Way of Healing Remarkable Discoveries and Recoveries from the Frontiers of Neuroplasticity by Norman Deutsch, published in 2016, if my memory doesn't fail me. And this is it for today. I will dedicate, as I said, future videos to some of these issues. But in today's video, I wanted to give you the rudiments of the somatic shared fantasy and how narcissists take over your brain in effect.  This possibly is happening by inducing a dissociative hypnotic trance via the technique of entraining.


So thank HowlRound for coming on three years ago or so at first to help us livestream and more recently in what was at March or whatever it was to help us do it this way during the COVID thing. So what we do every day that we meet together is we write together for 20 minutes and then I take your questions about your work and your creative process. So if you have a question Audrey will tell you how to get in touch. Thanks SLP. So if you have a question and you are inside of the zoom all you need to do is click on the participant tab it's likely at the bottom of your screen if you're on a laptop or the top if you're on an iPad or a tablet you click on the participant tab and inside of there is a little button that says raise your hand and you can click on it and a little blue hand will pop up and I will call on you if we've got time. If you're watching on HowlRound.tv you can tweet at us at watch me work SLP with the hashtag HowlRound H-O-W-L-R-O-U-N-D or you can tweet at the Public Theater which is at Public Theater NY or right to the Public Theater's Instagram and that's it. So we're going to begin and you're ready. I am I have on my little thing you do amazing. We're going to go to Charles. Hi guys. Hi, how are you doing? Good, great, great. So something very weird happened to me and I want to see you on it if it ever happened. So you know I'm writing something about the war and I you know every now and then the PTSD of the war comes back what I'm writing today while I'm doing that and I started a big explosion happened in my in my homeland and it devastated me and devastated everything. So I was so angry so pissed I feel everything here in my chest but at the same time I want to create art with it. I'm so blocked I didn't know what to do with that energy. I just wrote something like as a like a poem or something but I didn't know have you ever witnessed or had something like this related where you put it in a character or because I feel I want to do something with it but I don't want to also get it lost. So that's my question. You feel like what do you mean you don't want to get it lost? What do you mean? I don't want what I'm feeling that that bubble that that thing that I feel now that emotions that human side that that that's real I don't want it to get lost by I just want to put it in in a character or write it but at the same time I'm very blocked of writing it right now because I'm very devastated but by what's happening and the entire thing. Can you can you write it in the first person just like you're talking to us right now? Yes I can. I did write something like this right now but yeah I did. Yes I can. I mean yeah I mean what you're expressing right now is very beautiful and very true and my feeling is I wouldn't want it to get lost in the commodity of it. You know what I'm saying? Exactly that's yeah. Yeah yeah yeah so I think I mean if you have if you just write it down now as you're feeling it now then you can later you know find the appropriate place to put it you know. Thank you thank you I thought yes thank you. Wow and that's I was just watching that a little while ago on the news. Yeah it's devastating but yeah it's life. Thank you. Unfortunately that is a part of life. Yeah yeah I feel for you man. I really feel for you. Yeah but keep writing it down you know you know even if you think you're done you know maybe write a little bit more if you think it's not gonna fit in what you're writing write a little bit more you know. I will. Yeah okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right we're gonna go to the room. It's so good to be back. Four days is too long but thank you all for being here today. My question is about the idea of work so I'm working so hard on my project but the numbers of words is not necessarily coming I'm doing research I'm in I'm embedding myself in subjects I'm interested in I'm writing about memoir I'm surrounding myself with photographs of times I'm taking notes like but the output hasn't it's not coming the way that I would really hope and I think I'm working but I'm not I mean I know I'm working because I'm not like watching Netflix and I'm you know I'm not like you know ignoring the stuff you know I'm working but the output is still not hasn't like you know flowed it's ebbing it's not flowed the way I'd like and so I was just curious here I thought on the idea of work and how long one can work without generating the product and what did that mean and should I just kind of roll with it or try to time myself into writing you know I'm try I have the time I'm doing the things but like I'm just much more interested in kind of immerse immersing myself than I am in the focusing and the output of the writing so I'm just curious your take on that it sounds like you're doing the work I mean right you're showing up every day you're you're putting the time in in the way that you need to what it sounds like the glitch is that the the output isn't doesn't look like you want it to right now right yeah so this is you know part of being a professional so welcome to the pros right okay I mean welcome welcome to the pros again you know what I'm saying I mean it's not like you're not a pro but welcome to welcome back to the pros and just to remind yourself that um that what you want it to look like and what it looks like shouldn't negate that fact that you are doing the work I mean I just tell you what I'm what I was working on before I turned on the show the genius Amita Franklin I've been working on that writing scripts for that since January 2019 and I will many you know pages in the hundreds of rewrites in the hundreds so you have to um I think John President Obama gave that eulogy for John Lewis the other day and he talked about perseverance and how perseverance matures us um it's very moving eulogy you know uh if you just want to watch it it's very helpful to remember that um yeah perseverance is what matures it's one of the things that matures us so here you are in the perseverance stage you're working you know if you weren't working if you were slacking and watching Netflix then we'd have another conversation right Lou you're putting the time in you want it you want to be somewhere else with it but you're not um so sorry I lost your I lost your picture I was looking at your picture and I can't find it but anyway where'd you go I know okay we can we can move if she wants to come back but that's basically it thanks no worries um all right we're gonna go to Gerald hi hello hello how are you I have a question I um so I showed my novella to two people who are husband and wife who are great writers I respect their opinion and they really connected with it but their idea not by end their idea is that it should be a YA novel that they are so convinced that yeah that this is really for young adults now the thing is my my protagonist it's is uh 55 in their 50s so I would have to really I'm open to doing the work and I trust their vision and I don't know what to do I I'm so lost because I feel like I don't want to just scrap the 19 000 words that I've written but it makes a lot of sense for it to be a novella could I do both could I I'm really lost trying to figure out making this you'll fit it into a novella for YA right well because you said you showed this this this writing a couple your novella yes and their comment they they connected with it and they suggested it could be a YA novel of YA novella yes yes so but when you kept you said I'm connect I'm struggling with how to fit it into a novella so you mean into a YA I'm sorry it's okay yeah okay okay yeah that's that's really tricky um I mean you could do both you already have one form you know you could write you could write the other one if you really think that that's a cool idea um you could go ahead and and do it that that would be all right if you trust their opinion and you think it's a good idea um you know sometimes you give books to editors and they have cool ideas and then you take their ideas it's just that at that point it's already sort of on the track to getting published you know so I would um I think you could write it I'm sure if you feel if you feel like I mean you know your friends you know you know how you feel about their their feedback what do you feel about it what does your stomach say well I really was committed to it to the character being 55 years old and not be a novella and I mean sorry not be sorry I miss uh saying the wrong word and not be a YA book yeah that I was I saw it as a novella for adults and this is a whole new avenue and and part of it is not trusting myself and that's my struggle that I think everybody has a better idea than me and maybe that's the underline talking to you maybe that's the underlying thing or maybe I could do both but I just don't I feel like I don't want to just drop it oh the the novella for the adult thought for for adults because I I put so much love and care into it and to just go down this YA not the other tricky thing about about um some people view characters over a certain age is less than interesting and there's that you know no or or let's just say let's just be real women over a certain age less than interesting you know so um so that's a tricky that's a tricky thing too you know um uh you could get a you could get another opinion when did you hear this feedback when did you hear like how many days ago like two days ago okay okay okay so you can let it you can let it cool like don't do anything for a week write on write something else you know what I mean and then if you're still thinking about it you could get another opinion you know um that is helpful and you could also check in with your gut again you know but it is tricky with these you know you get opinions from really awesome writers that you have respect for and suddenly think oh yeah that'll do it and then the next great writer that you get an opinion from says actually your main character should be a rabbit a white rabbit you know and you go ah that's it you know so it can get a little tricky let it cool maybe Gerald you know okay I love that yeah yeah just work on something else because you've already done the work I mean shit you've done the great work you know what I mean you've done the hard work you've written damn thing you know well it needs it still needs a lot of quality and you know but sure but you know yeah you're just um get someone get yeah you seek some other opinions maybe that's really good yeah yeah thank you thanks Gerald all right we've got Larry up next hey Larry hey how you doing hey man how you doing I am you know I've been having a good time writing and it's been flowing and I'm enjoying it I've been probably for the last two to three weeks kind of approaching a draft of a first act and I just keep writing I've just been kind of going with the flow but it's kind of a little bit like the horror movie where you're running down a hallway just keeps getting longer and I started to have this thought like I wonder if I need a deadline like I wonder if it would be helpful to give myself a deadline and you know no this is something I'm doing for me no one's waiting for it uh or they don't know they are um so I guess I was just wondering about your experience about giving yourself a deadline or giving yourself some self-accountability or something like that I was just wondering what your thoughts were yeah yeah I mean the question is you know do you brush your teeth if you're not going to see anybody all day you know what I'm saying how many of us are wearing bottom parts of our outfits you know um yeah so Larry I mean I'm all into those kinds of things um uh I call them finish lines because deadline sounds kind of like sad and you just imagine Larry if you and me were running like running and we were like we're gonna run yeah I don't know how far we're gonna run or isn't it much nicer to go we're gonna run the marathon it's still hard but at least there's a marathon there's a finish you know right so yeah so I I enjoy doing that I uh like if you say sure I'm gonna wrap it up by hammering a date you can make up the date you know okay and stick to it and then just kind of show up and stick to it I like those sorts of things like opening night Larry you're a director right well yeah yeah exactly so it's like opening night you know or freeze the show or beginning of previews or whatever those things are that we you know I guess is a little bit of a superstition like I might jinx the flow that I'm feeling but I also think that the flow might also be a little bit I don't know um in the way uh huh like I could just be making stuff up right anywhere there you go yeah and and you know and it's again it's it's like if you're doing you know like you're directing something you have first preview you're gonna jinx the flow of the good rehearsal by saying well we have to kind of have first invited audience in by that date you know I mean I mean you know if you do jinx the flow you're gonna be forced to find tools to unjinx it and then you'll have like great unjinxing tools in your tool belt that's great you know so it's all good okay I appreciate it thank you Larry thanks Larry um all right so we don't have a question at the moment oh wait Lou is back her power had gone out your power it was out are you back I'm in um I'm in North Adams Massachusetts and the storm is coming right through so I'm sorry so if I feel terrible I'm not talking about writing your scripts and I was like right here and then you know no it doesn't matter I I um but I did forget what we were talking about we were talking about work and if output equals work or if work is work what is work yeah let's let's let's let's give you a definition that's going to work for what's going on right now right right so and that's in a way you know I do a lot of things called lowering the bar and it was fun when we did this show in the lobby the public theater and Carol remember I would bend all the way down to the ground and get this close from the floor lowering the bar lowering the bar right or just embracing where it is that you're at so Lou for right now work is going to be showing up every day for a certain amount of time that you will determine and doing what you feel you need to do to inch your project forward okay and also work is also going to include for special extra credit work will include you keeping your eye your mind's eye on whether or not you're bullshitting yourself because at a certain point you're going to go I'm just researching you know and if you can feel that I'm like oh no you're not low you're bullshitting yourself then at that point you stop put pause on the research and get back into the writing even if it's not flowing right because work will be just showing up at your writing for your writing time and maybe typing and sitting there and scratching your head and pulling your hair and chewing on your glasses and putting back on your doing that you know for however long you know okay so it's about so work has you know an element of I'm trying to think uh maybe the hidden thread of compassion in it maybe try I'm making this up as I'm talking to you but I'm trying to you know what I mean it's a phantom thread of compassion if we can just trace that thread sometimes sometimes we're we're we we get excited about our finish lines or we need a certain word counter we need to turn it in by a certain time or turn it you know get take the notes so much but we need to also remember to trace that thread of compassion that is part of work that is part the part of work that gives us joy you know that that feeds us you know that gives us that replenishes our sense of optimism like that Helen Keller book I was reading to you guys a few weeks ago yeah I remember you know you know does that make sense yeah compassion thread of compassion yeah that makes a lot of sense thank you so much okay thank you and check back in and see like you know because if you start bullshitting yourself then we're going to give you a different okay that's fair thanks okay thanks Leo thank you oh I clicked all the wrong button so sorry Carol you're up next unmute unmute unmute there you go here hi hi look good to see you all again likewise what you were saying was just made me think how during these hard times and when you're having different difficulties that are upon everybody in life that's when writing is most important it seems to me that's that's when I have I can write with the deepest feelings and compassion or even get from the writing find out what I'm feeling but still it's a sense of working and I find journaling every day is really important for that and helpful look sort of like that's if I if I do that then I know I've like played my scales so that when the real idea of the problem solving for what I'm working on as a project comes comes when I sit down it's there and it pours out so I just wanted to share that and just say how happy I am to see you and to say that everything is going well how's he doing how's he doing he's doing but that we've heard this the word my favorite word right now he's in a safe place is what a doc what the doctor said so that's great so that's great so you know it's still day-to-day and he's still has he'll have to be there for a couple more months oh wow in the mickey well till the because it was four months premature so they wait till four months you know till they yeah we're ready to be born right it's been quite a journey and um just uh it's precious what can I say and it's Rowan is his name precious right Rowan Rowan yes Rowan okay with an a yeah yeah okay yeah everybody remember take a breath for him yeah yeah just yeah thank you I thank you so much for taking those breaths and and for being with us on through all this and it's it was very helpful it and it's still going on but but to see a picture now of my granddaughter holding him oh wow and he's dressed dressed in in a t-shirt that says I of a digger and it says I dig my mama oh that's so that's great just see that so it's a sweet image oh that's great oh that's really great so that's the row port as we call it that's really great it's funny I'm looking I see my favorite yoga teacher Barbara Verrachi she's here today and Barbara says that if I can paraphrase Barbara Verrachi um that it's the times when you don't think you have time to meditate or do your yoga practice that's when you should do a double yes she always tells me that like I said how do you time to meditate today she's like that's what you should be doing it you know double up sister you know and those are the times um you know give yourself an extra scoop yeah I also find that that's um that poetry is coming out more oh like how about that like like flowing out I don't I don't even know that I'm about to write a poem until I start writing uh-huh see see what it is so it's it's sometimes troubled times can can be very productive true so I wish the things we that that you all um it can just make the most of these moments how was the storm have you had where are you the sun the sun the sun just and I'm in upstate New York and strangely enough the sun just came out after it yeah a whole day of heavy rain so yeah same here but it's passed through Massachusetts I guess through through loose town yes I think we were lucky with this oh good luck to you all so we actually we don't have a question at the moment I'm good we can practice our posture I know I'm very excited about that we've got a question from Bernita there you go hey Bernita hi SLP hi Audrey hi everyone so I was gonna wait but I was like okay no one's raising their hand um so I guess this is kind of a check in so interesting development around the um article then and working on confronting former client the magazine initial positive response from the editor-in-chief yes let's do this let's collaborate on uh looking at the disparity between what the company says it supports and what it actually is doing now the editor-in-chief is retracting you know backtracking in terms of participating and I guess what's coming up for me is um just I'm taking a lot of inspiration from John Lewis's last words I think it's absolutely amazing uh the piece the fact that he wrote in like his final hours and um that call to action to really stand for what I believe in but I can feel it like I can feel I have taken on a uh a quite large undertaking and when addressing topics or writing to um writing to uncomfortable subjects I guess so to speak how important is it to say get your backup lined up and not necessarily just you know factual information and what I'm putting in the world and whether it's you know and it and it being true not only to my experience but also like evidence space but um you know going at it when you might be on your own versus you know trying to identify all of the people who would support said writing um you know before you go further into the you know and further into the ring that I have already started yeah sometimes we're needed we have to go into you know battle you know by ourselves you know even if we wish we would have allies you know there's there might not be anyone around um but I feel like and I feel like it's it's it might be more effective if you did have some allies in this you know so you didn't have to carry it all alone I mean you can still lead the charge but it's good to have to know that you've got some allies if at all possible you know what I mean I'm not saying if you don't have any don't do it but I am saying if you do have some allies in this then contact them in some way you know you said you had a mentor who was you know talking to you about these subjects you know if I remember correctly um I because because um uh uh uh being a warrior can be isolating you know I'm saying I mean I pick up my sword every day and run up that hill and sometimes I got to run up the hill all by myself and sometimes along the charging up the hill I might see somebody go come on you know you got to come with me you know sometimes the people I thought were my allies turn out to not and there's and that crosses racial gender all kinds of lines you know there's not solidarity in the community like we would hope so but it's I thought I always feel more I always feel more courageous when I can when I have others with me you know so if you got folks um enlist them if you don't got folks and you still feel passionately then then keep going and certainly have all your all your facts and everything all lined up I mean it sounds like you've got that already but you want to have all your facts and everything also ask yourself is this the best time to make this strike you know this this this this make this effort you know this is the best time to make this effort since the person said yes I'll be collaborating with you and then ooh they're retracting you know um yeah I think so I mean um what it what comes up to me in the retraction sorry I'm calling um what comes up for me in the retraction is like that this is the inflection point right like this is the crux of the the systemic structures that kind of keep the status quo in place if we don't push forward to um really get under the hood and reconstruct um so but this is this is helpful I do I was actually in my 20 minutes starting to jot down names of not only allies as far as potential collaborators to the work or the other people who have been directly impacted by this magazine um practices but then also just thinking about like people that I could call on to who would support me and saying like yes Granita is a qualified producer yes in this situation if she was denied the opportunity to even submit a proposal for the job that there's something there's a disconnect there and um so my goal is not to I think just as I have started this process it's becoming revealed to me that um I want to scale up and I want to make an impact and I think there would be a bigger impact if I wasn't out here being a lone warrior um and at the same time I recognize you know when someone says to me like hey why don't you get together with all the other black and brown people that you were working with on this project or at this company I'm like there are no others like it really it was like me so I hear you I hear you but it's cool that you're looking not just at in the in the company but maybe there's someone in another company in another situation you know that's kind of thing maybe you can find allies that way and also they'll just give you tools and tips as you go forward too you know. Yes. Okay keep checking in Granita. Yeah thank you Granita thanks. Thank you. Thanks Granita. Um all right we've got about seven minutes left and we're going to go to Elizabeth. Hey Elizabeth. Um I've been watching for some time now and I'm really delighted to be here. Thank you. Huge impression on me and I am trying to get more organized in my work and living every day or at least five out of seven days a week. So in the meantime what I'm faced with right now is I have wrote a play some years ago maybe five, six, seven I don't know about something that was personal to me and I decided when I came back to it that I didn't want to I wanted to go through creating an outline without looking at the original play. So I've been doing that but I have now hit some roadblocks and I'm not sure I mean I'm there's a I know the beginning I know the end I know how it's about the setup is I know what I'm at at the three quarters kind of point blah blah blah but the point but the actual writing of it I'm not even sure about and the things that that don't meet my mind I haven't solved in terms of the outlining. So my question is do I go look at that other play or do I leave it alone and just stumble forward? Yeah oh you're you're a hard you're a hard case Elizabeth no because you're tough you're tough girlfriend you you're allowed to look at the play girl you wrote it you wrote it it's yours you know what I'm saying I mean you're like yeah I'm not going to look at it and I wrote it five years ago and I'm gonna see if I can remember it it's not easy it's not easy well I'm saying I think what you're you're creating is a real fresh take on it yeah which is really great but yeah and but if you if there's some pieces that you think gee it would really be helpful to see how I did it X number of years ago okay you're completely allowed to go back to it you know and then you can either reuse those pieces as as is or you can refashion them to fit sort of the the newer model that you're creating okay thank you oh you're welcome permission to go look at your own work yeah you're allowed okay thank you all right Flo you're up next awesome I found the button yeah this is time and I'm really grateful to have to have the opportunity to ask a question so it's about keeping the momentum right so I I finished a draft and I was starting to of a full-length play and I was starting to submit it and then it's sort of like stopped my creativity around it and so now I'm working on another project and my question is about the balance right between the the play that's that's has a completed version of itself right I'm a little bit of a perfectionist and so I'd like I'd like to really nurture it and give it the chance to grow um with with mentorship and so it's like the balance between just producing it and having having it done and waiting and applying to really have the support to have something greater than what I can do on my own so I don't know if you have any advice around that uh huh so you you finished a play you have a completed draft did you have a party no did you did you buy yourself some flowers or I suppose I I did yes I just know that it was for the play for you you did the work I mean you know so you but you you you did some kind of like happy dance or something right yeah it's it's true it's funny because you know it's like it's all of these like you know stepping stones we have to yeah it's a little bit of a landmark but I want to keep revisiting it I want to I want to become even friendlier with these characters and get more truth in it so it's like I don't really feel like it's great but I get your point but when I I mean my child is not old enough to go to college yet but when a parent sends her child off to college they they keep talking to them I mean they have a party but they keep in touch you know you you're going to keep nagging them to whatever pick up their socks or whatever you know so you're allowed to keep working on it but you I just wanted you to recognize that you've reached you know you've you crossed a finish line thank you okay so you're going to buy yourself some flowers or have a bubble bath of what you do to enjoy yourself and then you're going to you want to um do you want to workshop how do you want to keep nurturing this play what's your game plan well there is somebody who who I really enjoy their vision and that I would want to to direct a reading it just it feels there's also an actor there's yeah there's an actor at least a three character play so there's somebody I see really good for the part that's like similar to who I am so so like it it's possible to to hear it and get a couple of people and and hear it together but it just feels like because everything is so uncertain now like I just want I want that it feels momentous for everyone and and so it's I know that they could be the spitfall of keep reworking and reworking something and of course everyone everyone wants there to be a production at the end but there's no no right but there but so we so we do what we can and we let the rest go yeah that's that's that's part of being a pro we're gonna do what we can we're gonna we're gonna do what we can we're gonna let the rest go so what you have you have a director that you like that you could approach they're your friend or yeah they're great and you have an act this actress person is your friend also yeah I mean she read you read it fantastic so you've got you've got two people already you just need two more actors and they're gonna be thrilled to be involved in a project you have you can have a zoom party you know what I'm saying that it's I mean you can have it be you know a reading of your play and happy hour or you know or something like that I mean or have the happy hour after you have the reading of your play or just you know some way to celebrate however you think that you're appropriate you know and that's another finish line that you will have crossed you know yeah you're making it feel casual it's nice because yeah it's cash but it's it's all it's very serious it's like we don't have to like clinch about it you know what I'm saying it's okay reading your play it's going to be lovely it's going to be fun they're going to give you feedback afterwards you're going to be appreciative um they're your friends you offer to do the same for them maybe sit in on one of their readings or something give the you know so you reciprocate when you can yeah I agree we're going to work with the tools we have you know instead of mourning the the things that we don't have and can't manifest right now yeah that's exciting thank you it brings happy clarity yeah yeah and we're gonna have a nice time as nice as it can be given the circumstances yeah thank you yeah thanks good great question no flow thanks well it's six o'clock it's six o'clock here we are okay we'll see you tomorrow we'll see you tomorrow as a reminder please sign up by three p.m eastern every single day or you know the day's warrior and I'll send you a link between 3 p.m and 4 30 p.m eastern we'll see you tomorrow bye thank you thank you bye thanks people thanks Audrey thanks


You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. I went into the adult industry and honestly for three years like again I was cutting off a part of myself but it's so dark babe like I don't I don't know how I mean obviously I do know now how I got through it but there was a lot of drugs do you know what I'm saying? I always say that I sold a part of my soul because I really feel like I did.  Bimber on! Today's guest we've got Sammy Brown. How are you Sammy? I'm so happy to be here babe I'm just really grateful that you've asked me to come on and we can talk about this that we're going to talk about today and hopefully raise some awareness that could prevent someone else from going through it.   Yeah no I'm so like I'm so like I guess I'm a bit anxious because all my body always knows that I'm going back there mentally but now every time I do one of these interviews babe I just know that it's stopping because I keep saying to people these people have their power because we're not speaking about it so every time that we shine the light on it it's going to make less space for darkness and the darkness can't exist when we shine our light on I guess the darkest parts of this world because these things that I talk about the reason that I do it the most is because I know that this happens to children and I think that's what pains me the most is that to know that I was I guess a young girl the fact that someone could be even more vulnerable than I was I've got to do it for them babe like this is this is what it's about for me now like stopping it for the next generation and all I know is that if it could have happened to me it could have happened to absolutely anyone.