Where we explore the history of a clandestine scene through the eyes of the folks who lived it. I'm Matthew, owner of Riot Seeds. I'll occasionally be joined by my co-host, not-so-dog, breeder and grower from Mendocina. Welcome to the Underground. Hello everyone, welcome to Breeder Syndicate. Where we cover strain history. My guest today is the Rev from Kingdom of Organic Seeds. Welcome, brother. Nice to see you. Thanks man, good to be here. Long time we haven't talked, so we're gonna catch up a lot on everything you've been doing, everything that you've done for the people who are new to you and where we're going from there. So let's start off, dude. Like what started the Rev on his cannabis adventure? Well, I guess I was about, this has been about 1975, I guess, you know. I've planted my first weed ever and my mom ended up killing it, right? Oh, right, as they do. So I was so pissed that my beautiful plants got killed.  Yeah, I went out in the backyard the next day and I just spread them everywhere, right? So a Dicondra lawn of cannabis came up. I bet. My parents freaked out and we eventually struck a deal where I could grow four plants. Oh, wow, they gave in. Yeah, well, I just overwrote them, you know. And so I was jazzed about that. So I grew up my mom's backyard for a couple of years after that.  I didn't know what I was doing, but I grew some giant fricking plants, you know. I bet. And then, you know, my dad, he was a hydroponic experiment scientist guy. He loved hydroponics. Oh, wow. One was on the other end of the scale. She's fully organic. I mean, you know, as organic as you could be back in 1970s. Yeah. So they each had their own input to me. So I learned hydroponics really well, really fast, the whole dynamic of it. And my mom taught me organics. And the first thing I did, of course, was I flopped into hydroponics and, you know, started building systems and designing them. And that worked out really good. And I look back now at that. And I think, man, we really sure thought we had some great buds back then, but I won't even touch a synthetic grown bud these days. I mean, do you remember those old catalogs from Sensey Seeds? Like the pictures, the buds back then, just all chewed up and rotten. Yeah, dude, it was a different time, man. Well, I hope because of my organ, my hydroponic knowledge, right? I had met these guys in Northern California and they were super interested in hydroponics. They didn't know anything about hydroponics and they wanted to know big time. Oh, I bet. So it was kind of a marriage made in heaven right there. I got together with them. They agreed to teach me their ways. And they were breeders and growers if I would teach them hydroponics. So I mean, that couldn't have worked out better. Yeah, no kidding. Prentice ship made in heaven. Yeah. So what kind of stuff were you seeing around then? Was it mostly Mexican stuff that was coming in import? No, no, these guys had connection with the surfers, right?  So they were hooked up with some really prime genetics. That's why when people nowadays tell me, you know, oh, the weed now is so much more strong. Well, as a whole, yeah, but not if you're a selector and you find a clone of something like Blue Mountain Jamaican or something, you know, something from Hawaii, something picked and selected. It was just it was incredible weed, tie. Oh, my God. Yeah, see, I always hear these stories about the old ties. And that's why I've always kind of chased them. I looked up to you when I was, you know, getting into breeding and growing up. And I was like, wow, this dude's super into tie. I want to see what this is about. I love tie. Yeah, yeah, it's a special. It's a special region that produce just I don't know if it was the region that produced the incredibly special plants or the farmers were just better at it or how it works. Plants from different regions are kind of similar sometimes. It's like Central Americans are kind of close to Southeast Asians. You know, they have a lot in common. Yeah, we're like Colombians and South Americans or have some similarities with South Africans and Africans like the Rui Bart, right? From South Africa and like a Colombian red, a good, a good, strong, real Colombian red, they're very similar. It would be tough to tell them apart by high tide. And I've always tripped out about that. You know, I thought, well, there must have been some boats going around exchanging genetics way back then.  Yeah, yeah. And I think the genes are similar, too, because I mean, you can grow. You can have something like a Durban poison from South Africa that is miles different than a Rui Bart or a Colombian. Oh, sure. You know, but but there are there are strange similarities across the table that always make me wonder what happened in the past, how they got there. Yeah, no kidding, man. I've seen some pretty weird ones. Like there's a lot of that turpinolene in a lot of Colombians, but in a lot of Mexicans, there's skunkiness. And you think there would have been a lot of trade going up and down through there, but they did keep their own little separate divisions, too. It's wild.  Well, that's super common at the early stages of flowering, right? Yeah. A lot of sativas to smell that way. They don't really start to put their real smelly legs on until at least halfway through. So what were some of the first lines that you were making crosses of? What were some of the first crosses, even before breeding, just a first like? Oh, my God. Let's see. God, you know what? The first ones I find it hard to remember. I remember I had a I remember I had a tackle box. Oh, yeah, the cops got that.  But damn, I just I just can't. I don't mostly regional varieties. Yeah, some of them are reasonable. Some of my got from France. Some of my got, you know, online having to read the catalog and mail and go. Yeah. And then let's see. When was it that when Seabae came online around that time? OK, so early early 90s. Yeah. Yeah. When they came online, I started really digging on the availability of online stuff.  But oh, yeah, I found some real gems back then just popping around talking to people.  But so I mean, is that is that the era that you got the metal haze? Yeah, that was from Dutch flowers. Yeah, it was. And in fact, you know, you and I were talking about having to select things Southeast Asians like hazes, right? Yes. And that that metal haze, it was funny, because if I recall, I got I think I got six or eight females out of a 10 pack. And pretty much most of them were average and OK. Yeah. A couple of them were better than OK.  So that was lucky, really, that was lucky, because really, you usually have to go through a lot more than that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, especially in haze varieties, because it's just so much. Any any any sativa that has, like, mostly a land race history is going to be a real good selection, because wild plants keep their options open, you know? Yeah, they sure do. Big genotype on reserve to tap. So they don't really, unless they're super, super old, like like the deep chunk or Panama Red or tie, some things like that. Yeah, they're just they're set in their ways just like old people. They aren't changing. Yeah, deep chunks, perfect for that. Yeah. You know, they're just they're real. They're real acclimated to whatever environment they were inbred five hundred times into or whatever. Exactly. Deep chunk just loves the Mendo and that's it. You know, like the Mendo outdoors, perfect for it. People have big problems with it when their pH usually runs low. Oh, really?  If your pH runs six to eight, six, seven, you're going to have small issues with it.  That's awesome. I didn't even know that part. I've had trouble with it on and off in the past. Yeah, I guess it's because it's from the desert, basically. Yeah, it makes sense. So it's used to a lot of minerals, probably a super high soil pH with pretty low organic content. So yeah, it makes a little bit of sense. Yeah, it sure does. So what was let's let's let's talk about the first strain that you actually started breeding breeding online. You started working. Damn, I think I used. I think I had a damn. I really just can't remember. How old are you, son? I'm 62. I've been doing this for half a century. I know.  You know, over the years, it's gotten a lot harder for me to remember some of the earlier years. It used to be just like, bam, bam. Oh, just just wait till you pass 55, brother. I know I can't. I'm all about walking in the kitchen and going, what am I doing? No, it's like a mad scientist thing around here.  See, I haven't even gotten to the point of utilizing that.  I just I give up. Oh, man, I can't do that. Because, you know, when I when I'm especially if I'm selecting like I am now. Yeah. If I screw up even once, man, now I have now I have a whole new set of variables I have to take into account. That's true.  They're trying to select a clone that will have like a closet or a small area of plants, right?   Yeah, really happening is they're dehydrating faster. They're needing water sooner. So the reason they look shitty isn't genetics. It's because you've got to understand the environment around them, right? Yeah, that's like selecting in veg, like culling in veg. Like, oh, it doesn't grow. Well, well, it could be the one that's the most potent. We're going for effect, not for structure in veg. You know, if you're super familiar with the line, like I am with. Yeah, I'm like the embodiment of Tasmania or the Galapagos Islands, right? I have a pretty sealed gene pool. Yeah, you do. I don't walk outside of my gene pool very often. So it works out really good for me. Yeah, I mean, that's that's one of the best ways to truly learn your lines and to master a line to really, really get it into. I mean, for lack of a better word, to master it, to get that bug grown to its best expressions to where you're familiar. And, you know, I use marker expressions on lines I'm real familiar with. Like my own lines I've worked with a lot. I know if if I have a square petiole, right on this one, I know that that that is a link gene to something I either want or don't want. As an example, right? OK, I get what you're saying. So I can select early. I can wipe out a lot of plants. I know I don't want early writing veg with things I'm familiar with. So people listening like a linked trait could be like you see at least certain leaf mutations. So you know that in that line, it happens to also denote another trait. Right. And a lot of times a lot of times it gets a lot deeper than that. Like patterns of leaf hairs. The patterns that they form in certain places on the plants. One of my one of my favorite things to do to be able to check plants early is I look at those, you know, the little round. I forget what they're called. Coitol dons or whatever. The little leaves on the sprouts. Right. Yeah, those are those are some of my favorites. When I catch the plants about a week up above ground, I always take a 30 time scope and look really close at those leaves and look at the density of the leaf hairs. Now, what that does is since leaf hairs and trichomes are pretty much exactly the same. Just a little tiny move on the plant. I then know which is most dense, which can have the most dense trichomes right from go. This helps me a ton for males. So if I'm a male from something I'm a little familiar with or not that familiar with, I can get a good grip on how what my potential is in my males to to pass off heavy resin production with the female for the offspring. Right. Yeah. That gives me my first little marker so I can, you know, do that. Hang on. So I'm going to grab OK. All right. That reminds me. I got one too. There we go. Yeah. No, that's that's something I never, never even considered. That's amazing. Oh, I'm glad you like it. Yeah, the leaf hair, the leaf hair things are big. I use them to judge a lot of things. And it's like most people go right to the leaves. They look at like leaf formations, leaf, whatever, some some aspect expression of the leaf. And those were good. Those were good for a lot of things. But the problem is with different environments and with any strain, especially a hybrid, if it's not an IBL, yeah, it'll throw out just on the match. It'll throw out different morphologies, different resin values, you know, because it's still testing the water. It's a hybrid. Yeah. Right. That's what it's doing. It's getting to grip on the world. Yeah. And in today's society, we know, like almost everything's a poly, poly, poly, poly hybrid in the cookie world, unless you're unless you have a nice sealed environment away from that kind of BS like yours. Well, you know, my worry is it's not that I think anything is particularly bad or particularly good in the recent 20 years or so. But the problem I have is is it's is it's useless for me to try to run down the origin of some type of genetics that I get because I'm involved with two or three people, at least, with one or two of them, at least, have just gotten it and decided to rename it something else and maybe embellish on the history. So I just I just don't trust anything I hear now. So I have my my Galapagos Islands gene pool that I went, man, I got a lot of seeds from a long time ago. I'm just working through them. Now, like I told you recently, I just got a G. I just got some G 13 haze from Soma to pop. Yeah, that's 30 years old. Oh, yeah, I bet those are. That's a really good line, too. I think that's where they found the the CBD stuff. A lot of the CBD basis for canotonic and stuff like that was in so much G 13 haze. Well, the haze would definitely have some CBD. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But yeah, because it's not just the resin production, you know, I mean, a lot like with let me think of it. Oh, like, let's take a Congo, for example, OK, several times. I've seen Congos that suck, right? Yeah. Several times. I've seen Congos that look like they'd be OK. You know, it's like a real dark, spooky looking bud. But you don't see much resin, you know, just and it will kick your. I mean, bad, right? Yeah. And if you were to chop that bud in half and look at it, you would see that it forms as different. It's resin different than an indica would. You know, a lot of the Indicas were bred to make hash, right? Yeah. So they always wanted the resin spread out all over the whole plant so they could all extract it with hash. Yep. Sativas are a lot different, especially some of the really wild ones. Yeah. It's their resin production as you get closer to the core of the flower to protect it from the weather, basically, is what they do. But that's why you can have a sativa that to your naked eye. You can go, oh, yeah, that looks all right, and it will lay you out. Yeah. I mean, you look at a lot of these old sativas. I was looking at some Highland Tie Bud I had from Bodysave. And if you look at it, like, I guess if a modern person that, like in the that started growing in the two thousand twenties looked at it, they wouldn't even understand what to smoke on it, because it's almost all leaf. You know, there's no floral density to it whatsoever. Yeah, no, we had those. As a matter of fact, when I went to Northern California, they had just gotten pretty flush with those exactly. Yeah, right? Those ones from Afghanistan and the Mideast that were not really buds, right? They were just like leaf bud florets or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and they were just covered in resin, you know, just these big, non dense flowers just soaked with resin. Jesus. So let's talk about some of your lines. I mean, you've made a lot. I mean, so many lines over the years. One of your flagships is the was it the Blue Rhino 1947? Love it. Let's talk about that one. It's one of your stingy poles. When I when we first started talking, I think that was one of the big ones you were working with. Man, I still love it. It's one of my favorite go to smokes of all time. It's it's kind of heavy on the Indica side, but you wouldn't know it by smoking it because it doesn't really relate that kind of sleepy side too much. Yeah, it doesn't give you munchies too much. But what it does do is it reminds me a lot. I thought I mentioned Bhutan earlier as it reminds me of some Bhutanese, right, that have this this resin profile where the high type is like, I don't know how to describe it other than it's golden and happy, right? Everything is like golden and you're happy. And that's what the Blue Rhino does. The Blue Rhino 1947 does for me. But it's most unique property that I have found in nothing else is that I have some I have a lot of damage, actually. But one of my major damage zones is in my leg, right? And I took some really bad nerve damage. Now, the problem is when I'm up and walking around because of all that damage, along with bone damage and other stuff. But when I'm up and walking around, I have to hold my muscles in that leg tight, right? Yeah. Because any loose if I step down a step that's not there or something, man, I'm done. I'm on I'm on a cane for a week. I know what you mean. Yeah. It's bad, right? Yeah. So the Blue Rhino 1947, after a day when I lay down to go to sleep, if I'm up and around, right, my leg will get spasms when it relaxes, right? And that hurts the hell out of me. Oh, I'm sure.  So while I don't use it for pain relief directly, it absolutely cures me from the pain. I would be suffering. So I always have Blue Rhino 1947 always. Also, do you think that's from the blueberry side or what's in the Blue Rhino? It's a blueberry, white rhino and peak 19 and AK 47. Peak 19 and AK 47, that's right. Right. I got the I got the peak 19 AK 47 from Seabed many, many, many, many moons ago. Do you remember who made that one? Pardon me. Do you remember who made that one? I know it's a hyper-sigur math and something else, but I do not know who made that one. But I you but I use the Irish Rose version of Blue Rhino. Very cool. And I just crossed them up and, you know, it's an it's an impactive line. Anyway, I mean, the high is impressive. But beyond that, I started noticing that stuff with the tremors in my leg and went, Oh, there really is medical marijuana. Yeah.  It's the only thing you can feel in your body is that pain just throbbing and nothing was working. Dabs, nothing. And then I smoked some very weak blueberry just because I happened to have it and it completely took away the nerve pain.  So I was wondering if that maybe helped you any of the. At first, I really thought it was the blueberry I did for several years. I thought it was the blueberry. But then as I started to inbreed him and mess with them and look at different ones that were better at exactly that nerve damage stuff, yeah, I noticed that the ones I would select that would be the best would morphologically they would look the most like the peak 19. Oh, interesting. Not the blueberry. So I just kind of naturally made the leap and thought it must be the peak 19 that's doing it. But I could I could be wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, the the blueberries that I've had usually smell like blueberry, the ones that helps my nerve pain, because I have neuropathy bad and that tends to help me a lot.  I had one. It's just the one time ever that we just made me see tracers and hallucinate like LSD. And it was white rhino. So man, that's a special line. Yeah. Yeah. We used to smoke a ton of white rhino when we were out taking care of stuff outdoors. And white rhino works really good outdoors because it's also hardly smelly at all when you grow it. Yeah. Let's see. We have your riffraff tie, which I know is a popular one. That's that's a real great, great fruity baby right there, man. Oh, some people are hunting great fruit right now. People keep talking about it, too.  The riffraff tie is like you could call it great fruit. I mean, you know, I just want people to know that there was tie in it. But and then it's, you know, kind of muggled up, not pure tie. But I mean, damn, you talk about grapefruit. That that baby is full on great with a cure. It just gets 10 times stronger. It's radical. What's in the what's in it? Riffraff tie is a deep chunk. And let's see, which tie did I use? I can't remember if it was the I had gotten sent from my cousin in Vietnam. And when he sent it to me, the paper or whatever it was wrapped and said, bat damn bang on it, right?  That's a good name, too. And then the other tie I had that I worked with was from a breeder that I hooked up with that was in Denmark or Amsterdam. And he wanted to trade me some juicy fruit tie. Oh, yeah. For something I had. I forget what it was, but I was like, oh, hell, yeah. And that was legit juicy fruit tie.  So in the riffraff tie, I forget which one it was, but it was one of those. One of those, too. It'll say so in the description. Yeah. So check the description. I have a photographic memory. Yeah. Yeah. I see I need one of those, too. Mine just damaged, damaged, damaged, like memento. So if anybody's interested in the website, it's kingdomorganicseeds.com. Definitely go out, go check those out there. We want to talk about some more of your stuff. Let's see. I know my friend Smellboat would kill me if I didn't ask about the cherry tie. The chunky cherry tie. Yeah. Now, you know something? This I love that for so many reasons. But the first thing I really liked about was when I saw the offspring. I knew because sometimes when you're working with like it usually happens with a land race or an heirloom, long IBL. When you pop it into a hybrid, usually what will happen is they will just merge, right? It'll it'll the resulting will be uniform and it will blend. Yeah, it's pretty uniform in the F1 times. That doesn't happen. Sometimes it's like they resist each other a little and you definitely get lots of different recombinations. That's what happened with the chunky cherry tie. So as soon as I saw some starting to finish at about 10 or 11 weeks and I saw others that had two more weeks to go, I was like, oh, yeah, I knew. And then, oh, my God, when I smoked them, there was one I had that was a 14 week finisher and it was so close to just tie.  It was slightly different, but not very. And so I treasure that when I still have deep stashed buds of that. That's awesome. Oh, man, the freezer. It's incredibly like time.  That's really cool. I know my friend, Smellboat, used just the cherry tie part in his rainbow. And it's one of those bigger lines. Yeah, the cherry tie. Yeah, that's one that you need a little selection there. But there are one out of four of those females are just stellar. They're all good. You don't have any bad ones, but there's like, you know, out of like four females, you would probably get two average ones, one really good one and one epic one, if it spread the if it spread the bandwidth. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, it's an even distribution of the expressions. Yeah, let's see what else we got. We have let's talk about. Do you remember a string called Uncle Lucius Lemonade? I still have Uncle Lucius Lemonade.  All my friends were grabbing them, popping them, loving it. What was that one about? I've almost popped it here in the last six months. I've almost popped it twice. I mean, I've had it out and ready to roll. Yeah. And then something else came up and I went, oh, and had to go a different direction. Yeah, but I'm definitely going to rework that again. The only problem is it takes a lot of work. Like I was talking to you earlier about if I'm working with things I'm really familiar with, right? Like, you know, Blue Rhino 1947, let's say, I can pop eight. If I want to continue the line, I can usually get away with one way of eight sprouts, I can select from there and be good. Find everybody I'm looking for. Yeah. Maybe I might have to do that twice, but usually not because I'm familiar with it. I know what I'm looking for. Exactly. So that works out really good. But the Uncle Lucius Lemonade, now that's made from. A lemon wreck that a friend of mine brought me in about 2004, I think a lemon wreck cloned up from Northern California, from Willets. It was an intense train wreck, super lemon-y. It must have developed a sport mutation or something. And it had become super lemony. OK, there we go. So, but it also had another couple other weaknesses that may have come along with the lemony flavor was it was real weak. It had no structural integrity and stuff. Yeah. So I crossed it with another heavy, hard hitter, the Iron Cindy, which is a lot like a train wreck. Yeah. And so I crossed it with that to make Uncle Lucius Lemonade. Now, the problem with the original Uncle Lucius was or with the original lemon wreck was that it had some Hermes in it, right? Yeah. You had to weed those out and they weren't the easy kind to weed out. They weren't true Hermes. They were the kind you don't find out until two weeks before. Yeah, those brutal just just weak breeding, right? Yeah. So so I have to fish through them. So now in order to run those and inbreed them, I'm going to need to run 16 sprouts to start with and cross my fingers that I can find what I need in that run, because those are particularly dangerous. First, I have to find true males for sure. Yeah. Then I have to find a female that can take some stress.  So once I find that, I will do it because that is some of the most lemony stuff, man, ever. I think people run into that a lot with the train wreck stuff. A lot of intersex trades and a lot of like there's even auto flowering trades in the line somewhere. And but man, for me, there's not a much better hide than train wreck stuff. It's one of those ones just that I associate with tie, tie, pies kind of in there that make me happy, energetic, just tie makes me happy and energetic for sure. Sometimes totally spaced out depends on how much I smoke. But but the train wrecks, any train wreck I've ever smoked. I'm not a big fan. Oh, they're potent. That's for sure. Yeah, but they have a they have a quality to me that is not dissimilar than when you take something two weeks late, how the resume changes. Yeah, yeah. That's that's how they always remind me of I've even tried taking them a little early and that doesn't change. Yeah, but you know, it's just that's a personal thing like you and millions of people love train wreck.  I always get that vibe from it. You know, a train wreck people either and it's kind of like that with Jack Air or two a little bit. Maybe it's because of the Terps. Maybe it's because of the high two, but it's either people love it or they're just like, man, and some people it makes speedy and paranoid, like crazy paranoid. It just never does it to me. But a lot of Afghanis do it to me and skunk one does it to me. But yeah, it's weird.  Let's talk about some of the black forest. Let's talk about that one. Oh man, I can't tell you how many people I've sent running for the hills with that where they go. Yeah, well, I do get a little paranoid. I go, well, I wouldn't smoke it if I was you if that's the case, right? Yeah.  Which was the cherry bomb. That was an F3 out of Hawaii. That was it was a combination of about three or four Hawaiian sativas, elephant ear, Puna butter, a couple others. And it was crossed with a cherry AK-47. Oh, wow. Then it was inbred a few times to F3. And it was shared with me under some kind of top secret, you know. How the Hawaiians do, they're tight with their stuff. Top secret. So anyway, when I got it, the first thing I know it's the first couple of things I crossed it with is it was sort of, it was sort of submissive. You know, it would impart larger yields and it would impart added resin, but it wouldn't really contribute too much to Terps or high type or morphology to any big degree. So I really liked it because I could blend it with almost anything and it would come out mostly whatever else was in the hybrid. You know, it would always be like 80, 20 instead of a 50, 50. So yeah, I love that. So anyway, I bred that with the Vietnamese black, which I got from my cousin back in, I don't know, I think it was like maybe the late 80s or something. So you've kept the Vietnamese black line around that long? Yeah, I still have it.  So now it's like the black forest runs over anything it crosses anyway. Oh wow, how long is that flower? 16 weeks. Oh, I bet that's gotta be so killer though. Oh my God. But you know, peeps have problems with it because if you never have flower to 16 week plant in a container, you may have some issues. Yeah, yeah. People that are used to land races and heirloom lines and long flowering lines indoors, you really gotta do your homework before you start flowering them puppies.   Plus people will take them as the common mistake with a black forest or anything that's like up 14 weeks or something is they'll get to about the 10, 11 week mark and they'll be, oh shit, my plant's dying. I need to transplant it.  So it says yay time to veg. And what that means is time to reduce resin production. Yes, yes. So if you're in flowering and you're reducing resin production, well, that's not right.  That's why I tell people, you're feeding cannabis, not tomatoes because tomatoes like some nitrogen in calcium and veg and stuff but cannabis nitrogen kills resin production and flower. Yeah, I mean, sure, your plant will get really happy and we're starting to grow really fast. Maybe even mutate growth a little bit but well, it's like with tomatoes.  Right? Yeah, super thick, robust, thick skin. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the lines that I probably associate with you the most and that I get asked about the most when people ask about your lines is iron Cindy. People love the iron Cindy. It's basically a haze for my money. It's just like a faster flowering haze. It's a slightly longer flowering Cindy because Cindy and haze have a lot in common. Cindy in Southeast Asia have a lot in common. Yeah. So the metal haze was kind of a no brainer that I wanted to cross with it. It kind of makes a really nice outdoor plant too for the metal haze, a better frame for it and everything else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what kind of turps are you seeing in the iron Cindy? Did you use a pineapple C99, a grapefruit? What kind do you use it in there? No, no, I just used, I just selected some. I think I used a couple of females for that, maybe more than a couple but I just took some good Cindy's and crossed it. It's hard to get a bad Cindy. The only bad Cindy are every once in a while I would say one and eight are super small yielding. Yeah. The only really bad Cindy I've ever seen and that's not bad, it just yields really small. Yeah, but it probably has heavy resin production and all the other stuff. Yeah, that's funny, that's funny too because you know something in any line I've ever seen.  Yeah. It will also have about 25% more potency. Yeah. And resin production puts all that energy elsewhere for the plant. I love cannabis. I love how just intuitive it is as a plant and how quickly it adapts everything. Everything about the plant, eating balls. A lot of times we talk about on our show about like expressions and clonal expression meaning a lot of people used to call it genetic drift but it's not necessarily a thing but taking a clone from one environment to another and watching how quickly it adapts. How quickly it will change its form even. You my man know the important stuff if you ask me because that is it. Now I call it adaptability as a general. But yeah, one of the first things I do to my plants to check them out is back in the day we used to call it the breeders in Northern California used to call it growth hormone. And what it is is basically when you take a plant and you top it, right? Yeah. You see how fast it comes back with the axial branches and then you top it again. See how fast it comes back with the actual branches top all those.  Now of course you got to keep the resources all in line here during this. Sure. You got to have container size and food and what because it's now putting up 20 leads or whatever. Yeah, exactly. But that's how you can tell a plant has like the superior vigor from L. If it can come back four times and still be just the Hemingway. One of the ones I worked with a long time ago. The Cherry Hemingway, is that what it is? Well, before it was the Cherry Hemingway it was the Hemingway. Oh, okay. And it's a Bhutanese mad plant. And that thing, man, my friends would tell me it's broken out of the grow room window and ate the neighbor's dog.  I mean, it comes back. That's adaptability right there. Is it the Pure Bhutanese? That's one of the things I always look for with all my breeders is I test them that way.  And also I take advantage of any incidents I might have where if my tent went away all of a sudden it's 110 in there.  Then I watch those plants very closely for the next two weeks. I see who handled that best or if something happens where I drought them all out and they all hurt from douch test. That's a really good opportunity to see what's up. Yeah, yeah. That's a great way to see what's up with your plants and their ability to test for stress. Yeah, because I mean, they gotta be, they gotta be strong first and foremost, you know? When I'm selecting them, I don't want any weaknesses in there at all. Once I've got it down to all the strongest plants then I go to work on resin production, I see what's up with all that. So aside from your breeding work, which is completely prolific, it's really well known. And like you said, it's its own kind of ecosystem where you've kept it very pure in its own form and rarely do you bring anything in. You're also very well known for your true living organics. You have a book out from Green Candy Press called True Living Organics. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about, let's do a step by step quick basic organic introduction like you would teach a beginner, give them your best advice that you would give a beginner starting into organics. Okay, TLO is simply an all-natural style, okay? When I say all-natural style, I do mean organic, but all organic styles aren't all-natural. I could be growing organic with my earth juice bottles and it would not be all-natural. Exactly. It would be organic. Yes. So that's the first difference there. TLO is an all-natural style. There's no liquid anything, no synthetics. We don't cram organic acids in there to force feed them. Yada, yada. No synthetic processes in any of it. Or even any high or organic acids in any prolific amounts. Okay. And then the next thing you need to know about TLO is we leverage mother nature, right? We take some advantage of the plants being in containers like higher root temperatures. Yeah, that means there's more. You've seen an anthill on a sunny day compared to an anthill on a cloudy day. They're moving like lightning on the sunny day and they're all just the same with your plants. When the roots are, the temperature around the roots in a container are warm like that. That's pretty alien to the plant, but mother nature comes to the rescue, takes advantage of that, and we can leverage all those things, right? It goes warmer temperatures and the right balance, the right pH, the right food, the right aeration, the right container dynamics. You put the right water, you put all those together and not only is it all natural growing, it's fricking supernatural, right? And I mean literally not just a tagline. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Supernatural. Yeah. So we were getting into the second part, the second question of best advice you would give a TLL grower. Right, right. The second part is, from the movie Ghostbusters, do not cross the streams, okay? Gotcha. This is one of the most important things and what fucks up the most people most often, right, is they have their grow going really good, everything's cranking along and they decide to add some sweet or some super thrive or some kind of elixir or- Yes. You know, because that just, once you get how the all natural process works, it's all about consistency, right? Yes. It's all about the plant and the soil all getting used to their environment. The changes don't come rapidly, they come slowly. The plant loves it like that because it grows super slowly, right? Exactly.  Yeah.  And it takes a whole two weeks for that to come back to where it should be after a mistake like that. And if that two weeks is during flowering, well, as we discussed before, you're taking away from resin production. Yeah. Yeah. Instantly, instantly you're boofing your bud. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I don't get why anybody would go through all that process of having this beautiful organic living soil and add in just a little thing, but I guess that temptation's always there though, right? Like for people that are used to bottles, grabbing that bottle real quick to make a quick adjustment. For sure, I understand it. My God, when I was making the transformation, I boned that one many times myself. I bet, I bet it's got to be a common habit. So. Well, right out of the gate, the problem, the problem is, it's right out of the gate. When you pour some of that on your plant, oh, your plant looks wicked happy for a week, maybe 10 days. Oh yeah, it loves it. You go, man, I made a great move.  Well, it's because it catches up in time. Yeah. So if you're going to go TLO, stay TLO. Do not mix. Give it a fair shot. Don't decide when you've got a couple or a few weeks left to go before harvest that you need a phosphorus boost. Yeah, no kidding, no kidding. So when did you start your writing career? I mean, this is a big part of your career is writing, not just growing and writing about growing, but actually being an author. When did that kind of come about? I met up with a guy who was a writer. His name was Gooey. Just met with him online, right?  I couldn't even spell the word article consistently. I would spell it raw. I spelled all kinds of things wrong. My sentence structure sucked anyway. So he proposed an idea where he wrote for Skunk Magazine at that time. So he proposed an idea where we would collaborate, right? And we would just do some stuff together. So I stuck with him for probably, I don't know, it was like a year, but what we would do is I would write, then I would send it to him. Then he would fix it. And then he would send it back to me. And then I would say, yeah, yeah, because sometimes if you don't know how to grow and you're editing somebody's writing, you screw it all up because you don't know what you're saying. Absolutely. So along with correcting those kind of things, I also took really careful note on the writing corrections he made. I started to get a grip on how he wrote, how he structured his sentences, blah, blah, blah. So after about two years, I guess a year and a half of that, I broke out on my own and just started writing. And I did okay for a while and slowly came up more and more and more, you know, in my skills of writing. Sure. And then at one point when Skunk went digital, they got the new, I forget what it's called, but the program that you submit articles in, right? It's got all its own little rules, right? Excuse me. Like how many, you know, words can be in a paragraph, how many paragraphs can be, how many words and paragraphs can be under a heading and all this stuff that I wasn't really that familiar with. So that trained me a little further. So now I can write pretty good, you know, standard issue pretty good.  Yeah, for sure. You know, it's like whenever I'm writing, I'm always imagining that I'm just sitting there talking to somebody at a pub or something and I'm explaining whatever I'm writing to them. And it's funny because a lot of the people who email me, they say exactly that. They go, I swear man, I feel like I'm just sitting next to you in a pub and you're just telling me stuff. Yeah, that's what I enjoyed. That's why early you're writing resonated with me because I was growing up and reading Skunk and doing all that. Like it always resonated with me because it's how I speak. When I'm talking to someone, it's just familiar. You don't feel like someone's above you, talking down to you. You just feel like it's a bro talking about growing, you know?  I respect that totally, you know? It's like music or anything else or your favorite food, you know, you have your favorites right now, your favorites change sometimes. That's just the way it is. I go through periods where I'm just like, oh God, yeah. I made some hash from some Cinderella 99 recently. Oh, that's a good move. Really good move. So anyway, I just got to obliterate. I don't really, you know, for a writer of cannabis and author and a growing breeder, I don't really smoke as much weed as a lot of the people I know. Yeah. Probably because I'm older now, because I sure used to. Yeah. But when I get something that's really fine in my hands like that Cindy hash, I tend to go for, you know, maybe a week just being the stoner from hell. I'm all, ah, walking around baked on hash all the time.  But yeah, yeah, that always. Yeah, because hash also blows your whole ability to smoke flowers too, because it raises your tolerance to a really high level. Super fast. Super fast. Yeah, and that's no fun when you can't really enjoy the fine complexities of a high in a flower. Right, exactly, exactly. Because I test stuff out, you know, where sometimes the route I take for breeding is I will use, since I'm really good and fast at making hash, I'll take four plants, four females that I've never seen all the way through flowering, right? And I'll have my male or two or three or however many I'm using in there. Then, since I've seen this so many times, and especially if I'm using something I know, I can look at the plants as they seed up, watching very closely under magnification as they finish, and I can tell who's got the most resin production and of course the terpins become obvious to me. And so what I do is I make separate hash balls from each female because beyond the resin count, the resin production, you have the resin coating, right? The profile itself. Yeah. So, and that's what I'm really all about, I love that. So I just take days where for three days I smoke just hash from one, you know, in the morning, noon, night, then the next day or the next set of days I smoke. And it takes me, you know, a week or two to go through four or five different females. Sure. But by the end of that, I damn sure know which ones I like best. Yeah, you have a good idea how it gets you because a lot of people, like, I mean, I'm sure people realize this, but I don't know that they consciously realize it. A strain doesn't always affect the same person the same way at the same time of the day. When you smoke in the morning. Nor will it affect you the same way under two different situations. Exactly. It's so variant how a high will make you feel. It could, you could be smoking the exact same terps, cannabinoid content, everything, but time of day, mood, everything matters when it comes to cannabis. Every last night. I agree a hundred percent. It's like one of my favorite things to do to test out, especially sativas, ones that are sativa dominant. They're all just blaze a doobie or a couple of hits or whatever.  Yeah, dude. I'll see what kind of energy motivation weed it really is. A lot of times I don't even get to really, truly experience a high until I get up and move around and start, you know, getting some, getting some action going. That's usually when I figure out how it's truly stoned I am. Exactly. And you can take note of things along the way. Like something stay consistent. Like, oh, this is, well, I ate that whole box of cookies. So I guess it gives you the munchies pretty hardcore. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So you could tell some things stay the same, but as far as your attitude, as far as how it hits you mentally when you're on it, there's some that are just like I say, those Bhutanese or the Blue Rhino 1947, there's a few others I have that just make me have that golden, the life is beautiful thing.  Yeah. I mean, it's just, there's so many different kinds out there and, you know, I ran across somebody a couple of years ago and man, I'll always remember this guy. He comes up to me, he wants to smoke a doobie with me and I'm like, dude, is it organic or whatever? He goes, I don't know, it's pot. He goes, but it's really, really powerful. And I said, all right, well, let me have a hit of it. I smelled it, it smelled good. You know, I was like, okay. My first hit, I could see it was gnarly synthetic grown, like so bad it was like miracle grown, right?   Yeah, yeah.  And I go, let me let you in on a little secret here. I could spray the bud with Raid and if you smoked it, you would get so fucked up, right? So it's not just about that, right? You know that they actually, I've talked about this before on the show, back when I was in my teens in Bakersfield, most of the time we were getting in Mexican compressed during the 90s, we're getting Mexican compressed and we're young, we didn't have access to dank up and Humboldt, we didn't have cars to drive around, we were young four kids. But in a certain area of town, you could go get Mexican and it always had this weird floral perfumey smell to it. Later on I found out they were spraying with Raid because they would sell it and they'd call it Nade. So I thought that was the strain name, but later on I found out they were spraying it literally with Raid. Well, it will get you really, really high. It sure will.  Just take a shortcut and inhale some Raid if that's what you're saying, right? Don't huff on some Raid, yeah. Don't huff on Raid. No, don't huff on Raid kids. But yeah, no, it's shocking what people will do to their weed just to give an effect, even if it has nothing to do with the natural processes of the plant or the high of cannabis. Right, right. I've converted many, many people just by giving them some weed, right? Because they'll hit me with up weed and they'll go, oh, this is the best weed. And I say, compared to what? Yeah. Not compared to this? Yeah, this little number. And I'll give them like a quarter ounce of it or something, right? And within the time of no more than a few days, it never takes more than a few days. Next thing they're doing, man, they're asking me how to do this. They want details.   I mean, if you're someone who can't tell the difference between synthetic grown weed and organic or all natural grown weed, you need to solve that problem first because there is a hell of a difference. It means you're not smoking enough different good growers if you don't know the difference. Absolutely, because man, that's synthetic weed. I could take one hit of real shitty synthetic weed. Oh, yeah. And my throat's through for the rest of the day. Yeah, yeah, you're blowing out coughs out the throat all day. Yeah. It's all hot and shitty, yeah. Yeah, it's pretty typical for it. I mean, if that's your gig, if that's what you like and that's fine, fine, but don't throw it on me and try to tell me it's organic. I don't tell me it's the best. If you haven't smoked a good sampling of all that's out there and a lot of different types of grown stuff, you really don't truly know until you have that experience and have got the breadth until you can tell the difference between organic, shitty synthetic, and the difference in between. It's not just looking at the ash, you know? It's just that, yeah, but and that's just the elegance of the smoke. You know how elegant and smooth it is. Yes. When you're organic or all natural, you're miles above anything synthetic all the way. Yeah. But from, you know, I've never smoked really organically grown bottle weed. I call it soup style. Organically grown weed with bottles that has been really offensive unless the person has decided to goose their plants at the end with a bunch of potassium and phosphorus. You know? Yeah. If they don't fade an organic bottle grow well, it can be harsh. Nothing like synthetics can be. Yeah. But still you can pick it up there. You know, I'm sure you've smoked those jibbies where the cherry will sizzle like a sparkler a little bit. Yes, yes. That's mega potassium still in there. Yeah. Mega potassium. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you're going to pour heavy potassium or like phospho load on your plants at the end of an organ or a TLO grow, just don't. Just don't. You're not going to fool anyone. Just you're not. I mean, potassium and phosphorus are both elements that you absolutely do not want to goose your plants with pretty much ever if you're in soil no matter what you're doing. Yeah, exactly. In nature, potassium and phosphorus don't come in highly available forms. They're taken in very slowly stored. And that's another thing with breeding that I also notice is along with like what we were talking about before with how vigorous and what I used to call the growth hormone, right? Yeah. How adaptable they are. Another thing with it, what was I just talking about? See how I am. See how I am. This is the curse of the old person. It's OK, Mr. Magoo. Wait, what was I doing? Where did I go? Oh, OK. What was I talking about? Oh, yeah. So yeah. So potassium and phosphorus are just meant to be taken up super slowly over time, right? Like I said, and stored in the plant. And along with certain abilities of certain plants over other plants, one of those abilities is to be able to store and acquire nutrients like potassium, calcium, phosphorus. Some plants have a breeding trait here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you're selecting, some plants can store a lot of those nutrients. Some plants have a hard time getting it. Some plants don't. You know, it's just how well they work in synchronicity with the soil life. It's how adaptable. I guess it's kind of their more wilder side coming back to them. Yeah. So one thing I noticed going through your stuff, I don't think you have any OG Kush in your lines, do you? No, I do not. I love that. I love that.  But at the same time, the past 20 years has been bombarded. Everything has OG in it now. So you always got that profile somewhere in it. And I just realizing, wait a minute, this is an enigma. This is a thing you don't find very often. A breeder that's still going didn't work OG Kush in their lines and is still successful making great lines. I mean, that's special. I like OG Kush, right?  I think it's the guys who first made that were guys from Northern California who went down to LA, right? Yeah. Those were the guys who built that. So that was a devastating. That's not a day record because the legs aren't super long. But I mean, it wouldn't be a day record if the legs were longer because it's just disabling. If I'm in bed and I feel like shit, OG Kush should be perfect, just hammer me. I'm not going to be doing much else besides maybe get a haircut and watch a movie and not follow it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, there's a time and place for that weed, but that's not usually my go-to type. So I didn't want to use it because I mostly breed with stuff I like. And even though I'm not the usual, I'm not the regular, I'm not the majority. Most people like strains and varieties that are different than the ones I like the most. I tend to lean a little more sativa in my likes, or most people lean a little more indica in their likes. And it's not that I don't like indica.  We don't need something to hammer me down and make me eat some pancakes and go to sleep. Yeah, no, that don't help nothing. I want something where I could be high and happy, still functional, and I'm stoned as hell, but I'm still good to operate. It's not like da, right? Yeah, I just, I admire that. I admire that, because it's so easy to go with the crowd. I push OGs, oh, things are going a little bit slower. Let's push some OG in there. That's what's hip now. You just never did it, and I admire that. That's that punk rock ethos that I love about the Rev. Thank you, I sure got offered enough of it, you know? I guarantee you did, yeah, for sure.  That's what makes you special. Aw. So what's the Rev's white whale? What's a strain that you either you've had and lost, or a strain that you're hunting, a strain that you just always wanted, or a TURP profile that you've always wanted? Thank you. Well, I'm pretty good with making TURP profiles. I mean, I'm usually pretty close. I've seen enough of them blend, so I know close to where they're gonna go, and then individuals in that batch, I can usually find it, you know? But as far as the strain, I would love to have back that the police got from me after I first moved here was my Panama red clone. Oh, I bet.  This thing would grow roots that would shoot straight up out of the ground for a couple inches, then they would turn around and go straight back into the ground. So you'd have all these root loops and then new plants would start growing off of those. All of the, what? That's crazy. All right, you think that's weird? Let me tell you something else. You know how the male plants in some strains, some rare varieties, they're usually landrace heirloom types? They have those nubs at the base of the stem. I don't mean it from a being too humid. I think they actually have little nubs, like they reinforce the bottom third of their stems. He's like armor nubs, right? Sure. The Panama red had spikes on those nubs. That's so weird. There were pointy little like thorns on those nubs.  It is the tequila of weed. What makes you say that? It is psychoactive, man. It is off your rocker down the rabbit hole, complete takeover of everything. This is like- It warms you so thoroughly. You are like, it's almost like mushrooms. It really is.  Your brain is just going 20 directions at once. It's like your head is zooming through space really fast. You know, you're just like, whoa, like that ad for those speakers that time? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like that.  It has waves, right? So it's creeper.  It just keeps thumping you and you just go deeper and deeper. It's a great, great. I've never seen a true clone of it or what looks to me like a true offspring of it anywhere. Yeah. So I haven't dabbled, but I never gave the clone to anybody so I don't have any backup. So the cops have gotten a lot of really good strength. Where did you source that one? From a friend of mine down in Nicaragua. Oh, wow. Yeah. Him and I, well, a long time ago, I used to get this hash, right? From Jamaica, this red hash. And we used to take the boat and go down to the, what are those islands? Just off in Mexican, not Catalina. You know the islands just south of San Diego across the border? The ones that are named after the squid? Coronado Islands. Coronado Island. Oh, Coronado, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, not Coronado San Diego, but Coronado Island. Well, we used to rendezvous there and I'd always get the hash there. Well, he was the one who was always talking about this. Oh yeah, blah, blah, Panama Red. And as soon as he said that, of course, I was like, ooh. Yeah, I bet. You know, Panama Red, and he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. He goes, yeah, I have a clone. So I was like, well, can you bring that with you next time? Yeah. And he was like, yeah, yeah, sure, I'll do that. He was real nonchalant about it for such a, whoa. Yeah. What year was this? Uh, 82? Oh my gosh, that's awesome. Yeah. So it's legit shit, legit time for Panama Red to be going around and everything. Oh well, you know, the closest thing to it now that if you could source, as far as I know, would be, what was that stuff, the big Sir Hollywood, remember? Yeah, yeah, yeah.  It is a lot like killer hazes, right?  That's the way he was talking to her. He's like, I don't even know why anybody grows anything but that. He's like, I don't care if it's, if it takes 10 and 500 to find one of them, it's better than any weed you'll ever smoke.  And I was like, wow, really? But I mean, it sounds like that this high truly does exist in cannabis in some forest. It's incredibly impressive. And I say that as an understatement. I mean, if you ever smoke it, it will, I hope it's still right. I hope somebody has a hybrid of it somewhere or something, you know? Yeah. Or somebody resources the real deal because it legit comes from the edges of the Panamidean jungle. Yeah. I mean, just right there. They don't go in too deep to have to get it. He told me a lot about it. But again, I'm old and I forget a lot of the details but he had a lot of details about it. But just looking at the plant, it was crazy. First of all, it was red purple. I mean, all over it. Was it a purple flower plant? Bottoms of the leaves were purple. All the veins were purple, the stems were purple. The buds were purple and the buds were dark purple. You know, but everything else was kind of a reddish purple and those roots that would go back in the ground and start new plants, it was just crazy. That sounds a lot like the Dolores strain too that was around a long time ago. I think that who talks about Dolores? Robert Clark, maybe one of those guys they know about it and it's an old, I don't know if it's South American or Mexican hybrid, but similar. Very similar in the looks, a lot of it. And it's, I think it's in Big Star Holy Week. The Dolores like is a portion of it. So that's interesting. Would it be interesting to see if we could find a way to find a strain similar to that? Well, a haze, a really good haze is very similar. Very similar. So Tom was nailing it on the head with his haze. Maybe that's- I mean, yeah, if you find a good haze, some are easier than others. It's like, we went through some, the first haze I remember, it was like 18 weeks flowering indoors. It was crazy. Do you remember where it was sourced from, that one? No, that came from the surfers in Northern California. So it was a good source. Those came from my buddy's surfer connection. They had those. But that one was just even, and just the seeds from like any hybrid of that one, you know, they never inbred it, but they hybridized it a lot. But like the Vietnam black, the jungle sativa, it walks all over anything you would cross it with, like 90%. Something would have to be an IBL 10 or 15 or greater to even have a chance to play a little bit in the offspring recombination. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So this is a personal question just for me. Did you keep seeds pure of the Vietnam black? Yes, I did. That's awesome. That's what I just did the soft back cross. I just released the black forest F2, right? Yeah. In brackets, it says BX1, small BX1. Yeah. Because I didn't take it back to the original individual Vietnam black. Then I took it back to a super superior male that had all the good signs on him. So I back crossed it to the line, not the individual. Such a generation of black forest that I just released, right? It's going to be Walpen Vietnam black sativa. So it's going to require not much looking through because again, I've never seen a bad one of those. They're all decent, but there are probably three out of 10, two out of 10 that are extreme. I mean, extreme. That is so cool. Because I know most of the people have only been sourcing Vietnam black via the camera who brought it to the scene, but I know JoJo passed it. The Vietnam black that was in Willie Nelson and Billy Goat also used one. But the fact that there's a whole another separate Vietnam black line from back in the day like that, super interesting. And I think a lot of people are going to be interested to know that. Yeah, that came from my cousin in Vietnam. He sent those to me. That's, that is sick. That is super sick. I always assumed it was the same one as the Billy Goat one. Knowing that just has me a thousand times more interested to see more of what Vietnam has to hold. Oh God, Vietnamese, some of the Cambodians. There's just so many Southeast Asians I love. Actually, Bhutanese is the Southeast Asian, but they're far from Hayes-like, you know. Where did you notice that? That is a unique one. Bhutan was a closed kingdom for a long time. Yeah, yeah, I got those. I have a buddy of mine in China. Well, he's kind of a buddy. We email back and forth about stuff and he gets me stuff sent out of there. He's done it twice. Wow. And one of the things he sent me was this, what was it? It was Bhutan. He called it Gold Bhutan. Anyway, it was, it was right from the, that it was at the base of the Patet of the Tibetan mountain there, right? That's where it was harvested at. And it smelled just like fuel, right? Oh wow. Like strong honey oil fuel. It was so accurate and gnarly.  So we called it a butane gas, that line. Yeah. And that's what I crossed with the Hemingway and then I crossed that with the cherry bomb and made the cherry Hemi. So the cherry Hemi is a real cool collaboration of a lot of strange exotic shit, but there's a real wild side to that Bhutanese.  Yeah, I would, I would imagine so. It's a wild, jungly place where they're, I've seen their strains. Like cause I, in Bhutan, I know that like their wild cannabis growing at literally all over randomly and different little, even from house to house, you know, a hundred meters apart might have different little cultivars or strains or whatever they have going on, but they tend to be pretty jungly, wild stuff. Yeah, yeah. Same with South Africa from farm to farm or Jamaica from grower, you know? You can have slight variations on stuff because of whatever their breeding practices are, you know? Yeah. And elevation, all of it, especially in some of those island places where elevation goes from sea, Florida, you know, high super fast. More UV is always good up to a point. Yeah. Right. You get too much UV.  It just makes everything bigger, not better. Yeah. It actually reduces the potency of the resin because it swells up everything so gnarly, you know? All the UV is just promoting that vegetable growth. So we used to take, for our commercial interests, we would grow full sun. Yeah. But for our plants that we smoked, we would either, we build lathings over them or we kept them positioned around trees so they would only get half a day of full sunshine and then half a day of dappled sunshine. That's really good advice too. For some of these longer flowering indoor strings that you have, would you recommend a different light hour time for indoors on some of your longer flowering strings? A different what? Light flowering time. You know how most people go to 12 hours as a standard. Do you ever recommend different flowering times for any of your strings? Well, if it comes from the equator, anywhere around the equator, what I will always do to it is during the second half of flowering, I'll either drop my photo period to 12, 5, 11, 5 or 13, 11, or 11, 13, I mean, with 13 hours of darkness, right? Yeah. Because they grow pretty much a year around with very slight photo period changes. Yeah. So sometimes I've had people have long flowering sativas all the many times they've told me it won't stop flowering. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, you just cut your light hours from 12 to 11 and that'll fix that in two weeks. I remember I ran into a Malawi. This is the first time I ever ran into something like this and I had it in 12 hours of light. And this is the first time I ever learned about light hours moving them or fluctuating them. And I thought, oh my God, it was like three months in, nothing, no flower formations. And I hit up Bodey. I'm like, Bodey, what is going on? What do I not know? And he's like, reduce your light hours down me. You know, it's like, reduce them, watch it watch. And then, you know, started reducing and we ended up moving down to eight. And by the end of eight, it would finish. Eight hours of light and it doesn't seem like it's enough, it's counterintuitive. You think it won't yield enough, but it was perfect for that Malawi. It is, and you only really have to do it for the last few weeks, right? Just, if you know about that, that's why I like sourcing geographical varieties and strains because I know a lot about different strains from different locales. Yeah. So if I know where it's from or where it's constituents of the hybrid are from, I can assess all kinds of things right off the bat, I can assume a lot of things. Yeah, yeah. So that helps me a lot. But if I'm just, if somebody's offered me some seeds, I'm like, well, where is this from? Where did the genetics come from? And they go, well, it's blue pops, blue boingo and gorilla funk cookie mass. And that tells me nothing. Zero, it tells you nothing about anything about it. You don't even know if it's an Afghani. If you don't know those specific names for those strains, you have no clue at all. Nor do I really trust people who I don't know to tell me what's real. And they may in fact, no shade on them, they may believe it's true because somebody told them that they believe that, and it wasn't true. Like I've heard, I've heard some good, fantastic stories that I just don't think are true. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There's a lot of people who are great people, just warmhearted people that will tell you information that isn't correct because they truly believe it to be true and they trusted the person who gave it to them. And that person might be a great trustworthy person with the person that just got it wrong once. We did it in the telephone. You have somebody who'll grow, I'm just gonna use an example here of something. Let's say a Cinderella 99, right? Yeah. They'll grow Cinderella 99 and they'll end up with, I don't know, let's say five females, right? So one of the females will be outstanding. Like in my C99 line now, if you wanna look for something really outstanding, what you're looking for is an extra beefy female. She is vigorous, an extra beefy to the max. She yields about 20% more than any other Cindy. And she is the most great, or the most pineapple-y, delicious, resin-soaked killer ever, okay? That's my favorite cut. Right? So let's say somebody grows them and they find that female, right? Well, that's special, right? So they name her Grazelda. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So then they decide, fuck, I need to breed this. So then what is the hybrid? X cross with Grazelda. Not C99. No.  Let me, you don't know. It kills the anthropology of it all. And that's what I know.   I mean, with, if we know that it's C99, we can go, okay, jack-carat type, skunk one, haze, northern lights five. Okay, we can, you know, you can easily break it down, but yeah, once they start playing around past the baselines and it's just random names and they aren't really, there's not a lot you can get from that. And to be honest, if I see something, a line that is like eight things in it, like some people would get all excited. The more hype strains are in it, the more excited they get. But I, me, I walk away the second I see too many because I'm like, I don't even know what I'm gonna get from this, nor would I wanna breathe with that because it's gonna be completely unpredictable. It would take years to learn the line, you know? Unpredictable is an understatement, right? Yeah, it's just, it's a totally different way. If you look on my side, you'll see that I do have polyhybrides for sure. But I have a lot that are true two-way F1s, true three-way F1s and true four-way F1s. Once you have a five-way or above of an F1, then it starts to become a poly, but a lot of the ones these days are like 10. Yeah, I remember. And if not more. Someone showed me the seed finder page for animal mints and I went and looked at, like as you can do the strain map and see all the stuff in it listed. It was like four pages long of everything laid out because it's just polyhybrid, polyhybrid, polyhybrid, it's just cooked to each trying to be X. Right. And it all ends up being OG Kush in the end, but none of that really matters because they've crammed OG Kush into itself and all of its expressions 90 times over, you know? Right, and you know, I like to keep everything separate too. I like to know when I'm not double dipping in some gene pool. So if I have a C99 cross with an OG Kush and a C99 cross with a metal haze, okay? I have those two strains. Now, oh, I did it again. C99, metal haze, C99, and what else do you wanna say? You see what happens when you have resin on your brain? I do, I'm seeing my future right here.  Because I was such a forgetful person. Oh yeah, okay, now I remember. All right, so if you have those two varieties, those two hybrids, right? Now you smoke one, oh yeah, this is really good. Oh, that gets me high. Then you go to smoke the other one, you go, yeah, that's pretty good. Well, it could be every bit as good as the first one, but you've already built up some tolerance to the C99 and the first one.  So when I'm testing things or sampling them and wanna know really more about them, I gotta make sure that I'm not cross encountering some things in two different ones because then I have to adjust that into my whole deal. Yeah, that's not an obvious thing to think of either. Like building tolerance to a specific strain or type when you're doing testing. So would you recommend like maybe the next day, the following day, maybe smoking one in the morning or one at night and vice versa the next day? Or you can clean your palate if you've got a couple of hybrids that have a common P1, right? Then you could just clean your palate in between, right? You could sample one, check it out and then go for something way out of the bandwidth. Then come back to the second one and then sample it. I do that a lot of times. That works really good for me. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. Give your receptors time to change a little bit. Yeah, one of my favorites to clean my palate with is Congo, right? Yeah, why is that? The Cindy Congo, well, because it's one of those, you know the strains that you can be smoking different weed all day. You can be kind of baked, you know, hanging around it.  Yeah, the breakthrough highs. I always call this breakthrough highs. It just stomps out any kind of mild effects. What kind of smells come out of the Congo that you work with? They are real, like kind of rotten meat with like a sickening sweet background. Interesting. It's accurate, but it's not fuel-y, you know what I mean? It's like rotting meat is the best way I can do it. It's sweet, but in a kind of a sickeningly sweet way. Kind of like the Matt News Good Thunderfuck. It's weird that they smell a lot of light, but they do.  Because sweet, like, I remember- Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you have to imagine what I mean when I say that there's a sweet component to it. It's not like, ooh! Yeah.   Sweet rotting meat, there's a sweetness to it though that's really fricking weird. It's like, it's sort of like sugar cookies. Yeah, oh wow. Oh my gosh. So it's almost, wow, that would be a really weird but attractive smell. I mean, I've smelled body odor smells in cannabis. Like, what was it, Bodhi's? He had a string called Hippie Slayer 33, I think. And it smelled like straight B.O., but it smelled yummy. Like, I wanted to eat it. Like, why would you want to eat human B.O., but I did. I'm with you, I'm with you. The metal haze was pure cat piss.  Yeah. It was pure piss, but again, strangely attractive and compelling. Strangely attractive piss. Yeah. Did you still keep that metal haze cut? No, I lost the metal haze cut to police. Wrist in these metal haze. Fuckin' police. Fuckin' pigs. They always get them. I mean, that cut was really special. I got to work with it a few times. And it reminded me of a, maybe a more in the structure NL skunk one dominant because it wasn't super, super, super, like, blanky haze, but it had a good structure to it. Right, it did. A good budge structure and stuff. That was such a cool line, man. That was such a cool cut. Well, the reason, one of the main reasons I crossed it to the Iron Cindy was to preserve it to some extent because they're very similar. Yeah. Right, they're very similar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. It's a skunk one or like five haze combo that you can see in both of them. Well, I could, yeah. Cause I did it to make the Iron Cindy I combined the metal haze and the C99 because the C99 is like a little metal haze kind of, a faster C99 is really unique. I really love it.  Definitely. It has a lot of haze sativa qualities to it. Not all, but a surprising amount for a eight or nine week plan, you know. I think that's why C99 gained such popularity because people want that type of high in the same kind of flowering time they could get from some of these Afghanis. And it's one of the few lines other than like high and low since Appalachia that I found that really captured the ability to capture a sativa in a short flowering time like that. It's like C99 is the only one I've ever seen that did it. That's why I grabbed it up so fast. I was like, oh my God, this is really like a fast sativa with some definite longer sativa flowering qualities. Yeah, yeah. Especially in high. I love the C99, I think she's fantastic. Especially now that I found that Bukku grapefruit mama. Yeah, no kidding. See, I'm a sucker for that pineapple. Right, not grapefruit, I'm sorry, pineapple. Oh yeah, the pineapple one, man, that terpinoline that what you would refer to as like cat pissy smell. But like mixed with the pineapple makes the flavor translate so well. Like it actually tastes like pineapple. So sharp, citrus pineapple. Sharp, citrus pineapple, right? Yeah, it would be so hard for someone to intentionally make that again from scratch, I think. It is one of the most pineapple-y things there are in cannabis, super cool. It really, really is pineapple.  Yeah, yeah, that's one that I do miss a lot and I've actually been trying to look for it. I think CSI Humboldt might have grabbed it recently. So hopefully that one's gonna come back in rotation soon. Now, you have a book coming out soon, yeah? You can always get the pineapple. I mean, I'm not sure. I don't know what the ratios are, the percentages of chance that she pops up, but I did find her within probably 15 females. Okay. I found one. And I've had friends of mine that have found them. So they're not super hard to find. No, no, they're in there. Definitely. They're probably one in eight, maybe one in 12, something like that. So if people are interested, do you still carry that line in seed form and sell it on your site? Absolutely. Awesome. Awesome, do you still? Oh yeah, I preserve the C99. They're still like the F5s that I have made. And what happened was last time I made them, I made a shitload and I put most of them in deep freeze cryo. Good, good. So now I just tap from a smaller source.  That way it can stay the same. I don't have to keep inbreeding them and inbreeding them. And you don't have to keep yinking them in and out of the cryo constantly every time you want to take out a pack and fluctuate. Right, right. And I love this, I love a couple of the phenos, but the pineapple beast is my favorite. And I'll always want to be able to get her. So I didn't want to risk it on the off chance that, cause sometimes it's like with the skunk, man. Sometimes it's just cannabis, mother nature just goes, ha, ha, ha, ha, yeah. There's just nothing you could do. You try to combine what you think is going to work in a certain way and it comes out almost opposite. Yeah, yeah. I can't tell you, now twice now, I've combined roadkill skunk male with roadskill skunk female. And I get all the same spread that I would have if I would have pretty much crossed anything any other two. Yeah. You know, it always comes out spreading the spread. I can't get to isolate it down. What I just did recently for, just because that pisses me off. Yeah, yeah.  Yeah. And I had a roadkill skunk handy. It was only a little clone, right? I had a little clone. I was like, okay. I popped it in the flowering tent, you know? Yeah.  It's sort of like Nag Champa incense. Yeah. And it's real sharp. Oh, it's just god-awful, exotic and delicious. But I mean, so I crossed it with that, right? It's a sharp, sharp, acrid, terpied profile, right? Yeah. So I brought the roadkill skunk up against it.  It's gonna be 12 weeks at least. Yeah. But if I grow these out and I get a high percentage of roadkill skunks, you can bet I'll be weeding them down to shorter flowering and be able to keep that roadkill skunk because I'm sure that V black will rule dominant in many of the things, especially the terp combo, right? Yeah. I should be able to, in theory, inbraid these with the right combo and get all roadkill skunk. They might be 11 weeks, they might be 10 weeks, but I should be able to do it because I can't get my skunk line to come all roadkill. It just, I've tried three different ways and I always get the same spread no matter what I do. I've tried two different ways with a few different lines and it is very hard, especially once the bud is dry to lock in that smell. Once the bud dries, it's like, that smells gone. Sometimes that is the case. Yeah. Sometimes it just depends on a lot of things. It's like what I do now more recently, only for the last, I don't know, three years, maybe four years or so, is I used to never dry my weed too dry because I like to smoke it when it has just a scotch of moisture still in it, right? Yeah, yeah. It's much, much smoother. Absolutely. You smoke super, super dry weed. It's a little hot, right? Yeah, man. So I always like my weed like that. So it's hard to store weed like that without consistently burping it. Exactly, exactly. Or else it loses the smells faster, right? Yeah. So what I do now is, oh, and this works good, but I take and I mummify it, right?  Okay. That's how dry I dry it. Yeah. I very carefully put it in big jars and put it in a big insulated cooler when I store it, right? Yeah, when I want to hit that weed or check it out or smoke it or whatever, I just open the jar up. My humidity around here is usually around 50%, which is fine, 50, 60%, that's fine. And I take some very carefully out of the jar. I set it in an open bowl, close the jar, put it back, and then I let it just set out in my room for about a few hours usually. Check the moisture level because fast it'll start soaking that up. Oh, I bet. Moisture from there, right? Yeah. And then it gets to that perfect consistency. Within several hours, sometimes it takes overnight. It depends if the humidity's low. Yeah. But by the next day or within a few hours, boom!  I like that. It all starts processing again. Yeah. Once you mummified it, you've stopped it. Yeah. You've stopped everything it's doing. There's no moisture in there, right? Yeah. So it preserves your buds for a super long time. So I take them all, I put them in all smaller containers like either pint jars or what are they, quart jars. Yeah. I save them all on that so that I never have to bust one open and keep opening it. That way I could burn it through one in a relatively short amount of time. Absolutely. Not have to keep opening it and close it, having more moisture get in there. Yeah, completely in that fluctuation. I opened up some Blue Rhino 1947 a few days ago. That was five years old. It's been in storage for five years. I did that to it. Five years? And it wasn't frozen or anything? Perfect. No, no, it was just now. Understand, I store them in a big gnarly insulated cooler. Okay. This cooler is in a place that is pretty cool. Never gets really warm. Gotcha. Gotcha. So the real key to the long-term storage is having your degree variants be very small in any 24-hour period, right? That makes sense. You only want that to change like a degree or two max. Max, yeah. That will store it as long as it's cool for a super long time all by itself. So mine stays like that in the cooler. Five years, buddy, five years. I broke it out, let the moisture absorb it. I squeezed it and went, mama! You know who else has blown my mind is Bodie. He has like this barn with buds hanging in it. And for years, he can have buds in here and just all different land racing stuff. He's going to pick it up but because Santa Cruz's humidity is so perfect, it's just like a humidor for bud.  That is nice. If you've got, like here, it's really a lot of times here in Oregon, it's too wet to really, I mean, I can pop them in the room since I don't trim the plant at harvest now. I just take the whole plant, right? Yeah, yeah. All the big leaves that come down and protect most of the buds from the light. But sometimes, man, I just have to hang them in the grow room to let them dry, you know? They're not in any direct light but there's a lot of reflected light, which is not my favorite, but I sometimes have to do it because my humidity is 90% plus for a week. Yeah. I mean, and I can't dry anything like that. If I put it in the jars, I'll be mold city fat. Oh yeah. Yeah. My girl who I have Ky-foned this tool of hers, she had a dehydrator, right? Uh-huh. There you go.  And then very carefully put them in the jars and put them away. And that works like a champ. But during the summer, I don't need it. I can mummy dry them just hanging around and toss it, you know? Yeah. So you have a new book coming out. We have the TLO version one and two, correct? Yes. Is this the V3 or is this a whole new book? Whole new book. What do we got? Tell us about it. Oh man, it's, I've leaned away from the whole teas thing, right? I don't like teas anymore. All right. What I like is a perpetual tea, I call it the churn, right? It's a constant addition to your water that you back off when it's near harvest. The whole book will explain it, but it is the book and bomb, right? Okay. That's how I adjust my water. And I give in the new book, there's like, I don't know, probably 10 soil recipes for any situation, no matter what you can get and what you can't get with tons of options for what you can sub in. That was a point of problem for some people where they would not be able to get something in the original recipes and they would sub in something else that's not good, right? Or they would just leave it out completely. And with some things you can leave out, it's no big deal. With other things, that's not the case, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So what do you think that is? Oh, it's all these new soil recipes. It's all the new dynamics around growing in general. It shows new micro pond style, right? Which is essentially using the catch trays as little micro ponds, right? Where the water sits in for a while, you have some alfalfa and whatnot in there. All the micro life grows and then gets sucked back into the plant and everything is beautiful. That method works like unbelievably good. I'll have to check that out. I've never heard that. Oh, it's so kick-ass, man. It's so easy. It's like top dressing, but it's bottomed in me. But it's like top dressing that works much faster, right? It's like you get results within days, you could see the effects of what you've done. And so that's a new component to the book. What else are you adding in? What else are we covering? Oh my God, I've got so many new things about lighting and sprouting and vaging and some detailed information about the lighting and photo periods, like you said. How to do sprouts, clones, all keeping with the TLO methodology, you know? I have an extensive troubleshooting section that I believe will handle any problem anybody can have. That's killer. I'm pretty sure because I've seen, with the first two books, I've seen a lot of specific issues people have, not that it's their own fault. It's usually because they can't source something, you know, along those lines. Yeah. Or they use something that's not what I said to use. Like a couple of people have really boned themselves using kelp extract to mix with their soil mix instead of kelp meal. Ah, yep, and that's a synthetic process to make the extract, right? With the kelp extract? No, no, no, no, no. Kelp extract is, it's all, it's fine. It's just highly concentrated. Yeah, obviously. Highly concentrated. Okay. Yeah, you start adding four cups of that to your soil. You're done. Yeah. Just get cooking?   You mentioned it briefly. Where did you source it? What was it like? Can you describe it a little bit? Okay, long ago in Northern California, I made lots of friends. Yeah. When I went to the, what was the cup? The Emeralds Cup in 2013. Yeah. I got ahold of an old friend of mine in Willets that I knew had the skunk. I knew he was a gatekeeper of it. I knew, yeah. So he was paranoid, skeptical. He kept calling me worldwide rev. Why is that? He just didn't dig the fact that I was so out of hiding. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, for sure. So there was that aspect. So anyway, I worked on him for a while, about six months and we finally made a deal. I would trade him some of my willhawken for some of his skunk, right?  It was the original skunk line, which I remember when it was first, before it was skunk, it was called Red Russian, right? Red Russian, okay. That's what it was before everybody realized how skunky it was and the rest is history. Was there a Russian river up there in NorCal? Yeah, that's part of the why it was named that. Yeah, it was probably right off the Russian river and it was very red. Yeah, makes sense. So anyway, so it's always had, from seeds from it, it's always had kind of a spread. There's always some sweeter, some like body odor, stinky feet ones. And then there's like really skunky, the roadkill skunky ones, there's pissier ones. There's even some with a little bit of a sweet component to them. Although those were very rare. With this plan, I've grown some of these out several times now and I get a nice spread. I get roadkill pretty often. I would say one in eight maybe. Yeah. But I don't have enough of a numbers of those spread to really say that for sure yet. Yeah, to make it a good decision. I've gotten it about one in eight so far from three runs, right? Yeah. So the road kills, the problem with the skunk is that there's no way to tell it's roadkill until two weeks before harvest. I know of no way. Yeah. There's no indicator, nothing. All the turpents stay changing. Oh, I'm gonna have to plug this in. That's all right. I'm running a low battery, hang on one second. We'll keep it going. All right. Let me see if I can do this and not screw things up. That would sure be cool. Oh, I'm a techno wizard, it'll be fine. Don't worry, I got this handle. Come on, baby. Okay, how's my audio? Perfect. All right, because sometimes when you plug it in, the audio goes to hell. Yeah, I know, you're good. So let's talk about the morphology of this skunk. Was it a pure Afghani? Was it a hybrid? What did you see from it? I've heard three what I consider to be legit stories for people I consider to be trustworthy. So I'm not really sure what it is. Yeah. The one consistency that I have heard a lot is that it was a South American crossed to the original Indica that came to Northern California. Okay. There was that kind, remember, with the leafy florets. Yes, yeah. That was all over suddenly. Everybody had it, right, that Indica. And it was real purple and real gnarly. But the best I know is that was crossed with a South American. Okay. That's what originally brought the skunk line, which was, when it was Red Russian, it was, and even skunk, it was very resistant to things like mold and powdery mildew. It didn't have a problem with any of that stuff. And as it, now that it's an IBL, I don't know, 13 or 15 or 20, now it's got some of those standard weaknesses to go with it. It's not so resistant to everything anymore. But it's still pretty much the plant I remember. You know, I mean, granted, that was a long time ago and I am Mr. Magoo. Yeah. But from what I remember, I would, my best estimate and feeling is that he did give me the true one that he has inbred himself. Yeah. But like I said, the skunk has a thing where it just won't go where you think it will go when you breed it. It won't. Yeah. It'll just do it standard. It'll just whip out bandwidths of the different turps, the different morphologies, all of the morphologies are close. The turps are wide ranging, you know? There's, the two killers are the body odor, stinky feet and the skunk. Yeah. They are soup. Now there's another one that I remember that is also in these, a piney one, right? Yeah. People love pine. Super pine resin. I mean, really sharp. It's almost skunk. Yeah. But pine resin. Yeah. And those are probably the most potent in the bunch. Do you notice any intersex traits specifically in that line or any of the skunky stuff? Do you ever notice that? Like, for example? So a lot of the lines that we're seeing that have a lot of the skunky traits, whether it's me or CSI, we've been doing a lot of skunk stuff, almost all of them are fricking full intersex. Every time we run into that same terpene profile, a lot of the times it comes with intersex traits. Heavy. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by intersex. Like herming. Herming. Oh, oh. No, no, no, no, no. There's no, my skunk is sexually healthy, but that would not surprise me because when the skunk came out, of course, you had to have it. Yeah, of course, yeah. You had to have it. So everybody had it. And while I was associated with some pretty damn decent breeders who were teaching me stuff, that wasn't the same for everyone, right? Yeah. Oh, of course. So everybody and their mom was breeding it. I mean, it just everybody did. So tons of it, tons of the seeds of skunk flood the market, but you know, you got people who just, they just can't seem to put in the work it takes to make sure that you're not blowing hermes or, you know. Any of it. Testing your mind and seeing what you've made, any of it. Yeah, that's a lot. Shit, I do. I do the most deep inspection on unknown plants. If I have anything that I don't, that I'm not already totally familiar with, then I'm in there with my 30 times super light magnifying glass every day while I'm slapping. You know, I'm looking close. I'm seeing because I can recognize when hermes are about to happen right before they do. You know, there's a little mutant growth that occurs at the axial intersects. You can see it's like a mutant growth, a mutant leaf growth kind of. Cause it's not, it's different than how a female typically grows. When you can see that, yeah. Sort of like it's trying to re-vage a little. So for the viewers watching this, I want people to take note because I often talk about like different things you learn only through experience and breeding. And one of those, if you'll notice when I'm sitting here talking with my friend, the Rev, he's talking about, you know, I know this line. Because I know the line, I know what I can see from it.  And that's what breeding is. When you're able to predict, you know, to run your lines and then to see it in action and to realize, okay, I was either right or wrong at this and make the next move. That's all breeding is. And when you get to this point in your career, when you've been breeding 40, you know, 30 years, a lot of this stuff comes second hand. And a lot of it becomes a natural instinct as you're going through these things. And there's even stuff you're telling me about different traits of the leaf hairs on the cotyledons and stuff like that. I have never even thought of. And I spend all of my time looking at the plants, you know, just constantly observing. And that's how you learn is constantly observing. You don't want to just let your plants, you know, leave them in a room, let it auto run for a week or whatever. If you're really into it, learn your plants at every fricking stage. That's how you know. And Rev's a great example of that. Everything you've been saying about that just reinforces that 100%. Right.  Yep. Grab a couple of the strongest, biggest, best males, throw them all in and let them breed. Now, when they're about two weeks from finishing, just go over them all with a magnifying glass. See who has the most resin, get a grip on them, smell them. You'll know the smells by then, right? Yep. Everything will be less because they'll be full of seeds, but you can take that into consideration. You can take them. Then go in and check them out. Then you get a really good idea of what you're dealing with, who's better than who, who's likely to be the king, who sucks, right? Yeah. Tell.  Exactly. I always make hash from those plants that turn out good that I don't know anything about, but they're killer. Yeah. I'll make hash from so that I can further dissect the exact resin profile relating to the high type itself, which is what I cherish over everything else because some weed just, it makes me aggro. Trainwreck, do that. There's different hash plants that can do that for me. The really super fast flowering plants, the ones that flower in like six or seven weeks. Yeah, yeah. Those all have the exact same quality for me of what I call aggro weed, right? Yeah. It's like I smoke them, I get really high, really baked, I'm all, whoa, it doesn't last long. It only lasts like an hour or something, right? Yeah, yeah.  I just am in a shitty mood. Yeah. It's like, I don't like that. Yeah, I know. I hate those super fast flowering ones, man, I just do. Do you think it's maybe like it just hasn't had enough time for the resin glands to mature in different oils, obviously, because they're Afghanis that have different oils than these longer flowering sativas. Maybe that's what has something to do with the high, just not enough time. Well, certainly it has to do with the type of high, generally speaking. Sure.  That high just bugs me. But on a longer flowering sativas, you have much more different kinds of highs. Yeah. A lot of them come across much different. Some are very evil, some are very happy. You know, some are very, you can't read a book because you have to keep rereading the first paragraph a hundred times. That's my life. Some are just like that. So I like to get a grip on those smaller assets of it. I agree with you. You accidentally, you absolutely, I think it's impossible to get a sativa 10 week plus high from anything that's below seven weeks. Yeah. Now I could believe you could do it in eight. I could believe that. Yeah. But I've never seen it. The closest thing I've ever seen is a Cindy, right? Yeah, yeah. But so it would be rare, but yeah, in order to get the kind of highs I really like and I really look for, it's gotta be a 10-weeker. Nine-week exceptions I've seen twice in my life. Almost every single breeder or someone I would consider a connoisseur weed that has the experiences smoked a lot of different strains like and knows what they've been smoking. They all tend to lean to that 10 to 11 week high. Everybody seems to kind of, as we get older, I think also our bodies mature, the chemicals in our brains change. And I think we all tend to just kind of navigate to that certain kind of high typity and it's really, really bizarre, but I've noticed it. It's the best of both worlds. It's really where the inner surgeons meet. You can, it can go either way that way. Yeah. You can find anything you like. Plus, at 10 weeks, you generally speaking, almost always have much longer legs, right? Yeah, yeah. The legs will be much longer.  Not only does that take 20 minutes to set in. Oh, I bet, yeah. 20 minutes. That's wild.  Before the ride truly starts? Yeah. Right. But then, you're gonna stay exactly that high. There's no wobbling. It's gonna be like a freight train.  That's crazy. It'll cook you all day long. That is awesome. It is.  Oh, I bet. I love that super long Florence and team of tie, V black, anything like that. The metal haze was killer for that. The chunky cherry tie. Oh, yes. So what's some of the current work you're working on? What's some stuff you're really excited about right now? Right now, I'm just kind of in a blurb where I'm just bringing up some stuff to look at. Yeah. I just switched over my lights for winter. So I'm all back to my I blue 6,500 Kelvin metal halide lamps. Yeah. So once I get those in, I have to do a little adjusting to my environment to make sure I can run everything right. Cause they're fricking hot, right? Yeah, yeah. And I run tense. So anyway, I'm dialing that all in. So what I thought I would do is pop up a few. I've got right now just my ones to have a look at right now that I have up are some Afghani orange that's so old. I'm not sure if it's a hybrid of Afghani orange or something else. And I'm not sure who gave it to me, but I had it in my four star can. Oh, wow. But it's so old that the label wore off and all I can read is Afghani orange was part of it. So I had to see what those were. Yeah. And they look, they look cool. They look good. And then of course the G13 Hayes, right? Yeah. Oh yeah. And I ended up, I planted like six. I still got two more seeds. Yeah. If I had six, I got four to come up, two died. Just, you know how they are with super, super old seeds. Yeah. You just kind of, it came up and went, no. Yep. And then the other two, which are a male and a female and you know, I don't want to jinx myself or anything, but they both look really good. Yeah. So I'm testing though. Now I just popped that G13 of flowering. Oh, you bet I did. Oh, that's awesome. I need to be looking at that, right? And then on the, in the other 10, I started up some cherry thunderfuck. Oh, nice. And some Cindy black, which with skunk. Is that the Cindy black? Yeah. Nice. Yeah. So with my, so here's why. Cause in my head, if my Vietnam black skunk doesn't work out how I think. Yeah.  Eventually I'll do it. I just have to find a gene that goes in there and knocks them all cattywampus and gets them to line up more uniform for me. Yeah. A gene that somehow in one strain makes that link trait to the skunk smell, have something, you know what I mean? Like a link trait that's good with it and brings it out. Something that locks in it. Something that'll just stick right to it and make it so I can recognize when it's there. Exactly. Something visual, a visual marker. Visual early on, a marker expression is what I call them and that would be super nice to have because with the skunks at present, the morphology is, you know, pretty random. They're not, they don't have a wide range but there's a lot of different ones. It's not an indicator. Nothing is locked to the roadkill. And as far as any patterns, leaf patterns, petiol patterns, root size, root density, root. I cannot find anything that is only visible with the roadkill skunk, right? Nothing. So I'm like, that pisses me off because as much as I don't mind flowering some plants, I am used to and I do like knowing early, at least having a grip on what I'm dealing with, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, as a breeder and as someone who has goals in their breeding, that's like, that's the main part. It's never seen enough to know. If I have to take up, if I have to flower 10 females to find my roadkill skunk every time, well, that's not how I do things. Yeah, yeah, that's it. I mean, the whole idea of becoming better and getting to know what you're doing is to be able to take short pets, right? Right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that's the whole point of the experience. Yeah. As I mean, if you don't know anything about breeding, you can probably do really well if you're just willing to do the work, flower all the plants first, harvest them all, sample them all, and then bring, have saved clones, and then just breed with those. And you'll probably have learned more than any, most other breeders out there in just that one experience by going through, taking good notes, smoking everything and testing. You'll be more advanced than 99% of seed makers, I should say, out there. I agree. I agree.  And that's a cool thing. I know which expressions are linked. I know which markers I'm looking for. I know which markers equal something I don't want, you know? Yeah, and that's a cool thing about keeping your little Galopagos Island of gene pool. It really is because you've had all this time to learn these specific strains, to learn how they breed. And when I tell people to know your breeder, that's what I'm talking about. You should be able to have a confident conversation with your breeder about their lines, about the history of their lines. And if they're passionate breeders, if this is what they love, you should be able to have a conversation like this. And this has been an exceptional, exceptional conversation with you. Is there anything else you wanna get in and plug or talk? Hermino? Is there anything else you wanna get in before the end of the show and plug or? Well, let's see. With the new book, I should be able, I should be submitting the manuscript around, I'm thinking first half of December. Okay. So that should be able to put it in print by the spring, I think. That's awesome. So that would be super cool. If you wanna get copy of that, I mean, with this book, I, you know, in the first two books, one of the first things I start out by saying is, this is not a grow book. This is not to teach you how to grow weed. Yes, yes. Right?  And you wanna grow it better, yeah. Yeah, so, but now in this book, I was able to not only organize it better. So after you read it, as you're growing, you can go, wait a minute, what was it? You can actually find what you're looking for because I've kept it all very isolated to chapters now. Good. So you can go and look and reference it, which is something the first two were lacking because, you know, I'm kind of a bozo. I've never written a book before. It's hard, man. Like, I can't even imagine where you'd start. It's harder than you think it's gonna be, too, you know? Together, yeah. And the saddest part, the saddest part, is that the easiest part is actually writing the book. Yeah. Right? It's the millions and millions of times you have to go back through it and rewrite, recheck, update everything. Make sure everything's on track because with TLO, I mean, I'm learning new things a couple of times a month. I learn, whoa, I learned something new, you know? Cause I try new stuff all the time.  So yeah.  I go, oh, so now I have to go through the whole book, read it front to halfway and correct every reference I've made that's relative to that. And then he's been off references that are relative to that. Yeah. So it becomes a lot of tedious work. But now it's, I'm in my favorite part now. I love this part. This is the home run right here. This is where I'm just rolling through it from front to back. I'm correcting punctuation, adding photos, just making sure everything is, you know, my paragraphs are good, my punctuation is good. I've said clearly what I want to say, yada, yada. So this is the fun times. This is all fun work now. Do you have to do all the formatting when writing your books and like where the pictures go and formatting of the text and everything or does someone else do that? I give a general format location, excuse me, like a lot of times, you know, when I'm talking about something and I'm showing a picture reference to it. Yeah, yeah. In the manuscript, I note the photo at that point. Yeah. You know, so that they know I wanted to be somewhere real close to that statement. Gotcha. You know, so yeah, that works out good. But they're pretty good about just keeping it my way, you know, they try to work out things.  I just put them in an extra folder for them. And I go, if you need to make space to, you know, so my paragraphs are closer to my pictures I put in there, just use one of these bud shots to even it all out, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that works out good for both of us. Shout out to Green Can You Press. They're my favorite cannabis publisher. They publish your books. They did the Strain Cannabis Indica and Cannabis Sativa Volumes back in the day. And the Cannabis Grow Guide and they do a lot of stuff like that. I mean, they've always done me right. They've always treated me right. And they've always done what they said. And when they said they do it, they do it. And I first got hooked up with them through John over at Skunk, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was buddies with Andrew over at Green Candy. So I just hooked up with Andrew and Mike couldn't be happier man. He's a great guy. Everybody who works there is great. It's a lot of, it's good working with those people, you know? Yeah, I met them through you. And when I worked with them in the Cannabis Indica and Sativa stuff, they were fascinating.  And if I ever worked with the book publisher, that's gonna be the number one one I go through because it's just, they're great people. So I wanted to give them a plug. Super easy to work with. And you know, like he knows that I've been struggling with trying to finish the book. You know, I just got my last hit from COVID not too long ago.  I didn't even get, I just got like flu from the first one, you know? But this one, man, this last one, and it gave me kind of a long COVID. I'm like extra fuzzy and sleepy. All right, let's cover, let's go over the website before we're done. KingdomOrganicSeeds.com, can you talk about it? Okay, yeah. So something when you go to Kingdom Organic Seeds, there's a wide variety of stuff there, right? Yeah. I read it closely because, you know, I'm telling you the real deal here.  It's just, it's the real deal. So when you get to the site, you'll notice that up on the top bar, there'll be the strains, right? That's all the strains. Well, right next to that is a button called gambler section. Yeah. And this section is where you can get basically untested-ish stuff that I know because I'm familiar with. It's probably gonna work out. I don't think I've ever had a bad gambler so far and there's been a lot of them. Yeah. So you can get really good deals on stuff before I really know what it's about. You know, whether it's a full head or a miss, but there's nothing bad on there and you can get some really good stuff on there. A lot of people just exclusively hunt that zone to get stuff for a good deal before it comes in at the real price later down the road. So make sure and check that out. I bet. I mean, the thing is a gambler section, the way you word it is gonna be totally different from like a person getting their clone their first time, crossing it, not testing it or releasing it. These are clones you've worked with for a long time. So you have a pretty good idea what these are. These are ones I have high confidence are going to be great. They're going to be fine. They're going to be excellent. And I have, like I said, I haven't thrown a dud into the gambler section. Yeah, and I've thrown, I don't know, 30. Yeah, that's killer. So are you going to venture into feminized seeds at all? I haven't asked you that. Let me see. How do I put this?   Because feminized seeds to me are sexually unhealthy genetics. There you go. That's all it's about to me. And besides, fem seeds are bad because of their sexual health to me. Yeah. As a breeder especially, but I'm not a big fan of them anyway. They grow, that's probably an unfair bias because it was 15 or 20 years ago when I grew up. And they sucked pretty bad.  I'm sure they've come a long ways now. But the one thing that I really don't like and I have never liked are auto flowers. Oh, Jesus. Yeah. It's just, you know why? Because no matter what it is, all the ones I've ever tried anyway, remember when I told you about those six or seven week plants? Yeah, yeah. Flower, six or they all have the same high type? Yep. All auto flowers. I don't care if it's Thai auto flower. It all has that exact same high to it.  I could totally see it, but as a breeder or a connoisseur, I poo poo those. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you know, I remember Neville said the same thing that he just couldn't do anything good with Rugerollis.   It is always subpar, right? It's always just below what it should be. It's like, it reminds me of back about a decade ago, there was a bunch of sativa that was suddenly released from Sweden or something, right? Yeah, yeah. It was all aquapoco gold and all this stuff, right? I got a pack of that right away. Yeah. And I grew it.  Right? Whoever made it either was hideous at selecting, lazy at selecting or just didn't care and just flowered and bred whatever they grew. Without really ever looking at it, because if you do it that way, your resin production will go down because you'll be selecting for the strongest, best plants and the two don't really mix, right? Yeah, you're right. You seldom have a super vigorous, wickedly beast-like plant that is also incredibly potent. Yeah, exactly. Right? Exactly. Usually they're the medium more, you know, they're very vigorous and they're very, very potent, you know? Yeah, it's that energy. On the other end of the scale, I run across plants fairly often that are psychopotent, insane resin production, but they talk about hard to grow. They have problems with everything, just like with anything, people, cows, dogs, you have offspring that just suck. Yeah, for sure. They have problems, you know, genetically, heart defects, nutrient defects, you know? Just the same with plants.  Yeah. Massive.  Like I said, you are one of the people I looked up to when I got into this and I still look up to and learn from you and it's an absolute privilege and a pleasure to have you on. I know people will be begging to have you back. And again, do we have the name of your new book coming out and where it will be available? Yeah, it'll be True Living Organics. It'll be the Druid Guide. The Druid Guide. Yeah, it shows along with your basic stuff. Like I said, it teaches you how to grow in a lot more ways than the last one did. It also shows very high order, high connoisseur, high artisan value methods. Yeah. The ones that you probably don't want to start out trying to do. To jump right into it, yeah. The basic lessons I show you in the book, it will come much easier. Like you said, to be a breeder isn't nearly as hard as you think it's going to be reading about it as when you actually get down and start to do it. You can actually, you're like, oh, that, but you look at it on paper.  Exactly. Yeah, no, you just got to jump in and learn and experience and screw up and keep screwing up because that's a lot of breeding is screw ups. And if you're not screwing up, then you're not really breeding. You're not really doing real selection. And then a lot of people can't handle that they screw up, that they're human. So they blame the seeds or the light or blame something else. Anything, yeah. Anything but them, right? Anything, we've seen these emails for years, we know.  Yeah, yeah. That's my first instinct, what have I done? Yeah, it's a different mindset. It's a different mindset. Oh, you learn faster that way. Take responsibility, you're going to make mistakes. Take responsibility and go, how can I not make this mistake again? Exactly, exactly. That's what it's all about. These are the lessons from the wise. For sure, if you want to learn faster and actually learn stuff, that's the way to go.     And don't cross the streams. And don't cross the stream. This is advice from the Rev. Thank you from all of us at the Breeder Syndicate and we look forward to seeing you again soon, my friend. I'll be happy to come on again, man. It's been super fun. Thanks a lot for having me. All right, privilege and a pleasure. Thank you, everyone. Cheers. Cheers. All right.