Welcome, everyone, to the Equal Opportunities Committee. It's the 13th meeting of 2014. Can I ask you to set any electronic devices to flight mode or switch off, please? Today's third agenda item is the delegation of the payment of witness expenses on the youth homelessness inquiry. Members invited to delegate to me, as convener, responsibility for arranging for the SPCB to pay under rule 12.4.3 any expenses of witnesses in our scrutiny of the inquiry. Are we all agreed? Yes. Thank you, we're all agreed. We now move on to our final agenda item, which is an evidence session on our youth homelessness inquiry. We'll start the session off with some introductions, and at the table we have our clerkin and research team, official reporters and broadcasting services, and around the room we're supported by the security office, and welcome also to the observers in the public gallery. My name's Margaret McCulloch and I'm the committee's convener, and I'm now going to invite members and witnesses to introduce themselves in turn, starting on my right. Can I also ask the young people here to tell us a bit about their experiences of homelessness? Matthew, where are you? Matthew, you've been here before, so can I ask you to talk briefly about your experience since the previous committee inquiry? So what's happened to you since then up to just now? Yeah, well I first...  And can I also ask representatives from the Highland Homeless Trust and Who Care Scotland and My People to tell us briefly about their organisations, and can I now ask John Mason to start the introductions? Right, my name's John Mason, I'm the MSP for Glasgow Shettleston, which is part of the East End of Glasgow. I'm Ryan Oman, I'm here for the Homeless Trust. Good morning everybody, I'm Dr Paul Monan from the Highland Homeless Trust. The Highland Homeless Trust is a charity, a local charity at Work's Number Nice in Thraewch Highland. We deliver housing support services to vulnerable people, that's males and females from the age of 16 onwards. We also have some specialist services for young people who have been formally looked after children. And Ryan and Matthew join me here today to give evidence to the committee. Alec Johntham, Member for North East Scotland. Matthew Freese, Highland Homeless Trust. Since last time, my attended committee, a lot has happened in the space of two years. My first went to the Highland Homeless Trust as someone seeking homeless accommodation. And I'm now in the process of looking to my first tenancy, which will be happening in the next few weeks. There's been a lot of ups and downs as there is for a lot of young people that are experienced, particularly with becoming homeless in terms of what's available, service provision, what help there is. One of the biggest difficulties I've found is, as the older you get, there seems to be, I don't know if it's lack of resource, but they become more reluctant, the local authority in terms of wanting to provide support. I helped with sustaining college, university placements, and the support that's required for that. I can touch upon that. Good morning, Crescianna Radd, Member for the Parliament for North East Scotland. Hi, my name's Gilmawr, so I'm a level 1 support worker with Why People. We work with young people aged 60 to 25, and I supported accommodation. Our main aim is to prepare these young people for moving on to their own tenancies. I'm gaining different skills to help them with that, regarding budgeting, education, things like that. Hi, I'm Aston Justin. I'm in support of accommodation with Why People. I'm from McMartin, MSP for Central Scotland. Hi, I'm Jordan Murray. I was previously attending at Why People C4000, and I continue to work closely with them even more now at my university course, and I'm the chairperson of the RTO at C4000. I'm Marco Biaggi. I'm the MSP representing Edinburgh Central. I'm Charlene McKellar. I work for Who Care Scotland as a policy development assistant. When I was growing up, I didn't have positive relationships in my life. I grew up in kinship care, and also experienced homelessness for nine years, and part of that I was sleeping rough on the streets for six weeks. At this stage, I would just like to thank the committee for having us here today and being part of this. Hello, I'm Claudia McDonald. I'm the head of communications at Who Care Scotland. Who Care Scotland is the only independent advocate, and obviously our organisation has a sole mantra of speaking up and speaking out for Scotland's care-experienced individuals. We work across all of Scotland, and we support young people through our advocacy up until they are 25 years of age. Hi, I'm Connor Chambers. I'm a looked after young person. I have been since stage of eight. I'm also a policy development assistant for Who Care Scotland, and I've always had to fight to keep the supports that I have, and also to keep the placements that I have, and I'm still currently having to do so today. Good morning, John Finnie, MSP Highlands and Islands. Can I refer to my Registrar of Interest? I'm a director of the Highland Homeless Trust. Indeed, I know both Paul and Matthew well, and I now know Ryan. In that position, of course, I have no input to day-to-day operations, or indeed what will be said today. Thank you very much for coming along and giving us an update. Can I start the questions and ask some of the young people if they'd like to give us an example, if you want, of how you became homeless? Would anybody ask who you'd like to? I just had a bit of a follow-up, and my mum, I suppose, in our house was overcrowded enough, so she asked me to leave, and that's that. Did you get any support once you left? I've been in homeless accommodation for about a month now, and it's fantastic with help. They've helped me with everything that I've needed, sorry. But I've not been in care of that before. So this is just a recent thing for you as well, okay? And the support you've got so far has been helpful. It's been really helpful, aye? That's good. Anybody else? Yeah, Charlene? I became homeless because I had a family breakdown, but I was actually in kinship care for five years with my other siblings. And when I was going through that process, I had a social worker when I moved into my kinship care for three years, and then it got changed. I had no communication with that social worker, and when I became homeless, I had no one to give me advice, no one to turn to for support, and I struggled, and that's how I ended up in the streets for six weeks, with no one to turn to, no-even-known where the Hamish Allen Centre is. Young people should know their stuff, and we don't, and we need to, as people in Scotland, need to be letting young people know where they can go for this kind of support, because I never got it, and I'm one of Scotland's people. Do you think that's information that should be given out in schools then? Totally. That's the places it needs to hit, but then we need to remember that not all kids in care or kids in general don't go to school. Or they're getting schooled at home. So it's finding a way that we can actually reach out and get the kids as well rather than just the kids in the schools, but definitely something needs to be done about that. If you get any ideas how you would do that, being a young person, if you get any ideas how you would reach out to those other young people that don't go to school? Well, one, they should have an independent worker, no matter what, because obviously they're struggling, so they should at least have an advocacy worker, and they don't get that, and I don't understand why they don't get that. I was in kinship care. I didn't know that there was advocacy places out there for me, and I know for a fact that if I had that from day one, I wouldn't have experienced being in homelessness for nine years and also sleeping on the streets for six weeks. I just think that's atrocious, you know. We're trying to change Scotland for the best, and I think we really need to kind of work together and try to make something better for kids that are needing advice, because there's plenty of kids out there that need that kind of supporting advice and they're just not getting it. How old were you when you were sleeping in the streets? I was 16 years of age. I was still trying to study at the same time, so I was still going to school. I found ways to wash myself, take clothing to certain day centres that I knew was there, but I didn't find that information out until my sister told me that. Now that's my sibling, and I shouldn't need to go to my sister for that information. I should go to somebody in my local authority and say, right, I'm homeless, what do I do about this, but there's no advice out there on how young people can reach out to people to help them and support them. And you've now got a job now as well? And I've now got two jobs. I work for Who Cares, and I also work for Quarriers doing housing peer support. That's fantastic, particularly from your background, so you can really empathise with the young people and give them the help you find. Totally, I know the struggles that they go through, and if they feel that they want to give up their tenancy, the only way is to support them and walk with them through that path, because that's what they need. They don't need somebody telling them what to do, they just need somebody to guide them. Can you remind me again how old you are? I'm 25 years of age. 25, you've loved a lot in those 25 years, haven't you? Yep. Well done for what you've actually achieved so far. Connor, do you want to say anything about how you became homeless? Well, I've never actually experienced homelessness, but, as I said in my introduction, I've also had to fight to make sure that that didn't happen. I've also had to make sure that I can keep the support that I've got and fight to remain in placements. But, as Shirley-Anne was saying, that's all about the power of having an independent advocate, because the reason I was able to do that and still remain within a looked after placement at the moment is because I had an advocate guiding me through every step of the way. And at every speed bump, the advocate was always there to get me over that. And any time I needed advice on what to do or who I could turn to, or anything like that, that advocate was always there and was a key factor. And at this point in time, there is also a similar situation going on that I'm having to fight to try and keep the current placement that I'm in just now because there's been a plan put in place for me to move into my own accommodation. However, I don't feel ready for this to happen. So, along with my advocate, we've been sort of fighting our case, if you will, so that I can remain. That's pretty much that, but, to what Shalene said, I think, if you've got an advocate and you've got someone there who's able to tell you, this is what you should be expecting and know you don't have to move on unless you're ready, it makes life a hell of a lot easier and would decrease the chances, I would imagine, of someone actually ending up homeless. And how old are you? I'm 19 years old. 19? Thank you very much. Ryan, do you want to say anything? Are you okay? Okay. Thanks very much for that. We'll now open up the questions to the rest of the committee and maybe we could move on since we were talking about housing just now on to housing issues. Marko, is there anything you'd like to ask? Yeah, I mean, there's the great new housing options approach that we hear about a lot at this level with councils supposed to be running housing options teams that can provide you with advice if you get into housing difficulties. I'd be interested to know about anybody's direct experience with those and, you know, if you have had a direct experience, has it been a good one? Can I also just say anybody wants to ask any questions if you just put them through the chair and we'll just take your names in the order, okay? Anybody want to answer Marko's question? Has anybody dealt with a housing options team at local authority? Yes, Paul. I think Marko was right, housing options has been rolled out across Scotland and delivered by local authorities as a method perhaps to identify the housing solution that's most appropriate for the individual that's in a point of crisis. My personal experience in Highland is that housing options is clearly dependent on the resources that are available to deliver the various options that might be identified and in practice the range of housing options that are presented to young people and others who are in housing crisis is very limited indeed and certainly doesn't lead to any kind of immediate resolution to the housing problem other than perhaps what would have happened in the past anyway which in Highland tends to be some form of temporary emergency accommodation. So I think the housing options framework is there but hasn't really led to any great or significant material difference in service delivery or availability of housing solutions. Anybody else like to comment on that? Yes, Claudia? I think from our experience as an independent advocacy organisation we have, we welcome the housing options approach but we're also very frustrated by what is the sense of the lack of options for care leavers. We have to remember the background that care leavers come from. They come from a background where they're on any given day of the week they're usually engaging with about five different professionals, that's different adults in a way that non looked after peers aren't. I mean it comes to a point of disengaging with those care providers and when they have to present to a whole new range of adult services which is effectively what the housing options approach is reluctance to do that is understandable. It's also quite scary, it's also quite overwhelming and I also involved negotiating a whole new set of different criterias delving into your past and trying to articulate usually on your own what you want from your housing situation. I think the other sort of additional frustration with the housing experiences of care leavers upon leaving care is that sometimes things don't work out and that sort of reflective of that transition from becoming a teenager to becoming a young adult to then making your way in life and when things don't work out for care leavers the fallbacks aren't really there. There's not mum or dad to go back to, there's not the sort of wider support network that we would probably want for our own children but unfortunately there's an inflexibility which relates to what Paul said about the resources that are available there's an inflexibility to be able to kind of deal with that and again if you can imagine the impact that has on that young person to then renegotiate that whole new service or that whole new discussion again can be quite overwhelming and in many cases off-putting and that's why young people may find themselves homeless they may find themselves sofa surfing, they may find themselves on the street and obviously that's what we don't want for young people to buy our state. Can I just ask a little follow-up to that, do you think? Because there's always going to be an element of people presenting to local authorities whether that's called housings, options or whatever it is what's the best way to make that as friendly as possible for young people and care leavers in particular is it specialist staff within that that can deal with those people that come from those particular backgrounds or is it something else? Yeah, I think what you say there's credit I also think we have a very unique legislative opportunity just now via the Children and Young People Act which if it's followed through in practice should effectively mean that no young care leaver should have to rely on our homelessness legislation to find accommodation. The other thing that we probably have to try to get better at is with working with young people we have an opportunity also via part four of the Children and Young People Act to plan beyond the immediate day-to-day living experience or placement experience of that young person to encourage them to think about what they want beyond 15, 16, 17 years of age we must encourage young people to take advantage of the new legislative provisions in part nine of the act which is the continuing care law and we must give young people every single opportunity they have to determine their own path in life and to feel they have control of that. The other opportunity which we're also encouraged about with the act is that there's an expansion of corporate parents in Scotland from April 2015 that effectively means that every public body more or less is charged with taking into account the lives, experiences and the wellbeing of a looked after child and a young care leaver. What we need to see though is that the strategic direction of corporate parents the plans, the single outcome agreements the indicators that determine how corporate parents are delivering services and how well they're doing that for Scotland's looked after population is transferred to the frontline staff. Frontline staff must know what it is to be a looked after child in Scotland, what that means. It means not a typical home environment it means having to deal with a lot of adults from a very young age and it means having to always justify why you need something. So I think we have an opportunity to really make that happen and we're encouraged by the legislation we just hope that that sees its way through to the practice. Paul? Claudia is giving a very clear statement of the opportunities and the potential improvements that are available around Scotland. I'd just like to emphasise that the difficulties and challenges faced by young people don't really exclusively to looked after or formally looked after children. I think as an organisation increasingly we're coming across young people 16 plus who have had no history at all in the care system but are finding themselves homeless at a very young age and whilst the situation for care leavers isn't perfect far from perfect it's significantly worse for those young people who don't have a history in care and don't receive the priority services and the privileged access to services that they formally looked after children do. They are a real disadvantage. Jill, would you maybe want to comment on it from my people's point of view? The issue that we, one of the issues that we have at the moment with accommodating our young homeless people is that there seems to be a lack in accommodation for our young people with either mental health issues or learning disability. What happens is it's a 14 bedded residence that I'm working at the moment and I feel strongly that there should be smaller units for more kind of one-to-one support with our young people that have either mental health issues or learning disability issues but we don't have that. They're all in the one building and there's a lot of peer pressure and different things so there's definitely a lack of resources for people in situations like that. When people do move on through past the emergency accommodation stage into the idea of trying to get into the long-term and permanent tendencies usually tendencies anyway, are there issues there with landlords availability? How realistic is that as a step with the way it's being done at the moment? What we tend to have just now is a lack of one bedroom properties. We try and encourage our young people to look for or apply for one bedroom properties but we don't seem to have a lot of them in the area that we are setting in at the moment. Of course with the new bedroom tax and things it's all added pressure if they've got to then pay for a second bedroom and things and if they're on a low income to start with. So bringing in the new bedroom tax wasn't really a good idea I don't think. Mark has asked how realistic that is. It was never particularly realistic, it's become less realistic as a result of changes to the welfare state implemented by the UK Government. We've had young people redefined from 25 to 35 which puts pressure on existing housing stock particularly in the private sector. We've had the bedroom taxes Jill was talking about. We've got other things like direct payments. The changes to the welfare state have made it much harder for people who are challenged and vulnerable to access the full range of housing stock that is available and much more importantly to sustain that accommodation once they're in it. People are experiencing real hardship of that there's no doubt. Have enough landlords coming forward? We have enough landlords coming forward, enough people willing to make properties available for young people. I think there are challenges around that as well. The number of landlords is limited, it always was limited. I think increasingly now with changes that involve things like direct payment of what used to be housing benefit to people who are in a private sector rent makes landlords extremely skeptical about taking on people who are reliant on benefits to pay their rent. I think a number of people inevitably have fallen into arrears with their rent and landlords have had to bear the brunt of that. I think that that means that increasingly we see accommodation being rented and there'll be a disclaimer on the ad versing, something like people and benefits don't apply, where's that effect? John, I think what's coming in the back of some? The point about the one bedroom flats or whatever. Should we assume that it's best for everybody to have their own flat? Or should we assume the UK government seems to assume it's best for everybody to share? Or is it just on a case-by-case basis that for some people it's best on their own and for some people it's best to share? I think what we're talking about is a system where a lack of resources is dictating needs rather than dictating what resources should be available. I think we have to have a personalised approach to accommodating our young people, particularly young people that are already at the margins of society because they're typically... they're typically excluded from the labour market. They don't tend to be represented well and higher in further education. They tend to be disproportionately represented in homelessness and our youth justice system and our adult justice system. I think we really have to try to endeavour to allocate housing and ultimately put roots down for young people to build in a home based around what they need. For some of our young people they do want to share. I think that the stream or the stark reality of going potentially from a residential unit where you're around maybe five, up to 15 young people at any one time to then live in an isolation, usually in an area that you've not had much control or say over where that house is and also quite detached from the connections you once had, wills in care can be terrifying for care leavers. It can cause serious mental impact, emotional instability and it ultimately doesn't allow them to make the path in life that we would want them to make. So I think a personalised approach is one that we would always recommend because I think that mimics what we would be expecting for people that have choice and people that have opportunities to have control over where they live and how they live etc. So I think we have to have a personalised framework for that. Matthew, could you give us an overview from say your point of view of what it was like actually moving out of care into supporting yourself? Yes, well I first went into the care system when I was 11. I briefly left when I just turned 16 to move back home with my mum. I had a college placement but the first thing I noticed as soon as I left was the doors were sort of slam shut behind me. So going from this environment where I've been so used to for a period of years familiar faces, it was quite a large unit as well to all of a sudden going back to something that was actually quite alien to me and that was living at home with my mum. On top of that my mum suffered a brain injury so she was quite severely disabled. So there was a breakdown. So I went back in August 2011 and there was a breakdown within a matter of months in terms of my relationship with my mum because there were no supports in place and the college placement fell through. I found myself back in care on a voluntary basis in the same unit that I was in previously and just I think I was 16 and a half. The local authority sought to remove my section 70 supervision order which resulted in then being allowed to then pull the funding for my residential placement. So I was back in a place where it wasn't perfect but it was familiar to me. It was a place of safety and as a result of my age they decided to pull the funding because it was deemed too expensive and they didn't have the financial resources to sustain it. So as a consequence because I couldn't return home because I couldn't stay in a place I felt safe I had no option but to seek homeless accommodation which is when I had approached the Highland homeless trust. How did they help you? Well they have a unit called Plainfield House which is a shared support accommodation for six formerly looped after young people. So I was fortunate that there was still a room available because when I first heard about Plainfield the waiting list was huge. So I was lucky enough to get in there and they provide 20-foot-hours support and you allocate a key worker that you would be in a residential setting. You are allocated six hours a week in terms of support so that is enough to tackle things like if you are involved with a job centre, you need help with benefits for and for etc. One of the biggest difficulties was going to a place like that coming from a residential setting that was very restrictive in terms of what you can do. You were very detached from mainstream society because quite often these units are in the middle of nowhere and I think one of the reasons for that is because some of them are massive and it's unrealistic to put a young person into somewhere and try and call it a house when there's 12 other young people, five, six members of staff there's nothing realistic about that. It's a completely false picture of what real life is and also the fact that there's not enough there's not a great enough emphasis on these homes prepared in young people for independent living. In my view, if I had help at 14 starting to prepare for the transition to independent living given that the vast majority of young people leave care very early then they're not going to have the same safety net as their mainstream counterparts in terms that they've got family to go back through things like that. I went to Plainfield House where things did improve but they were very slow and improved and one of my views with through care and after care accommodation is Plainfield House is meant to be a transition from residential to independent living. What I've found since I've been there are a lot of young people coming through the door feel they need a transition for the transition so there's something wrong. I think one of the problems is the age that they're going into somewhere like Plainfield House, quite often at 16 years of age. If you imagine being in almost what feels like a prison for a large period of your life and then all of a sudden to be handed the freedom to go out at whatever time you want to no restrictions as to what you can do you could potentially be at Plainfield to maybe three years you're going to use that time burning up that and you find freedom that you have and if you do want to get yourself started at the end of that and move forward the time's up and that's the difficulty. I think Alex wants to come in on that. Matthew's just covered one of the questions that I wanted to ask in greater detail and I thought it would be an appropriate opportunity to extend that and ask both people who have used the support mechanisms and people who are running the support mechanisms about the relationship with local authorities if local authorities are providing what you expect them to provide and to what extent are voluntary organisations having to step in and fill the gaps and what local authorities ought to be providing. Do you want to answer a victim or do you want to explain it again? We are talking about a system here where local authorities are supposedly providing the support that is required and we've heard that some of you have had difficulty in establishing a relationship with local authorities so to what extent are local authorities fulfilling the requirements that we presume are placed on them and to what extent are you having to bypass the local authorities and go to voluntary organisations such as the ones represented around this table to do that job? I don't want to speak on behalf of Charlene and Conor but just to sort of pick up on the very valid point that unfortunately sometimes the negotiation between a young person and a local authority can be quite complex and it's complex for a variety of reasons. We know that there's resource issues amongst local authorities and we appreciate that. However what we as an advocacy organisation are finding is that young people are told different things by different departments effectively in local authorities. Unfortunately we have had instances Conor unfortunately is world for young people that has been told by one aspect or facet of a local authority that well we can't do anything for you because your case is now closed. Effectively what is being said to Conor bearing in mind that Conor is a looked after child bearing in mind that the state has intervened in his family life and removed him from that so we are saying to Conor you're not important enough because the case is that you're closed that's not okay and unfortunately that can then leave a lasting impact on Conor and any other young people's ability or desire to want to go and talk to other facets of a local authority. That's where we find unfortunately that the rights the legislative rights and I think we have to acknowledge that house and homelessness. Legislative rights in Scotland are very advanced are very comprehensive but despite that unfortunately local authorities are not always informing young people of what their rights are and that's where we find that we are asked to help quite a lot and that usually is just to have a conversation with a sort of housing officer or another part of a local authority frontline officer have a conversation about what rights are being impeded upon but that's not okay and that's why we really need rights realised unfortunately we know from what Shalyn said and you've heard it at the top of the conversation Shalyn didn't know that there were organisations or people out there that could help her realise what was entitled to her and where we have instances where rights are being infringed upon or not realised we must provide safeguards to that or else we will constantly have young people disenfranchised from statutory provisions and legal rights that they are entitled to I don't know if you want to add anything to what that felt like to be told that your case was closed and you know Well I think for I think for local authority to tell anyone that your case is closed this is the plan we've put in place for you so this is what's going to happen you don't really have a choice in the matter it's not a nice feeling because one of the things local authorities are supposed to be sort of encouraging for young people and advocating for young people is that sort of independence and teaching them how to be independent so to totally take all power out of their hands altogether and just say to them well your case is closed this is what's going to happen deal with it it contradicts everything that they've been trying to do for me anyway the past 11 years that have been looked after by the local authority and I would say as well I think that a lot of the time with local authorities you see quite often that social workers themselves don't always they do sometimes but they don't always properly necessarily know the rights of the young person that they're supposed to be advocating for so therefore they don't tell the young person and they have to then go as a young person you then have to go looking for other services I was fortunate enough that I knew of the other services purely because of other family members and stuff like that so I knew the services existed and was able to use them I think at the minute there's still an on-going thing between me and my authority because my standpoint is purely don't teach me to be an independent person and then take all of that away from me by just removing me altogether from your system because there is absolutely no point in teaching me any of the stuff you've thought me of you're just going to throw me out at the end of the day thank you very much before I bring Paul in can I ask very briefly if you can answer really quickly as well do you think social media would help you to raise awareness of the help and support that's out there you know simple things from some of the organisations that's sitting round the table today tweeting information or putting it on the telly or billboards or Facebook or whatever do you think young people would access that information as well without a doubt young people would read it but it actually needs to be young people friendly because if it's not then they're not going to pay attention to it or take it on board I personally feel and I go on about this all the time there needs to be a lot of information out there for young people because where I became homeless I was walking about the city centre and you'll find like there's other homeless people sitting there like begging on the street and stuff but there's no help and support for them and they probably don't know where to go for that and if they walk past like a bus stop and there's something saying this is where you can go for help and support then that's going to attract them if it's even just a number or a map or something so that they can find a place that they can actually go and receive help and support because I think it's wrong that young people don't actually know where to go for help Can I ask again, sorry I'm kind of hogging it but I don't mean to, it's just a good lead-in the organisations that are on the table how do you let young people know that it's not within your system that you're actually there to help them how do you get that message out why people are the highland trust and yourself how do you let those young people know that they're helping support, sir? Joe? Well, as far as I'm led to believe anyway it would be through our website but that's probably about as far as it goes I agree with what the young lady is saying there there's definitely a lack of information out there without a doubt Thank you, Paul and then Jordan I think your question comes back to Alex's earlier question about relationships and I think the range of relationships that young people are required and expected to negotiate when working their way through the care system and then into the wider community as an independent adult is extremely complicated not all of those relationships are successful and I think that's an area that Charlene I think has talked about and highlighted as being evidential of cracks in the system that young people can fall through and do fall through and I think that highlights the importance of transitions my opinion would be that the transitions that young people and others have to experience as they move through their life are extremely difficult that's compounded by the range of relationships that are required to go and address and develop with professionals and also in terms of their own personal relationships and social networks it's a very difficult situation when you look at the range of relationships there some of them are quite poor some of them are not successful and I think that extends into working relationships between partner agencies sometimes it works very well sometimes that are tensions often that are tensions within various departments within local authorities lack of knowledge sometimes misinformation, misadvice all of the things that we've heard they contribute to the situation clearly and they compound the difficulties and the hardship faced by young people and I think we could say that we're not making it easy for young people to to work their way through all of those transitions and into a life of successful and independent living your organisation the Highland Highland Homeless Trust do you only deal with referrals or the young girl Ashton wasn't in the system is that correct and you became homeless and left home you weren't in the system you just left home so she never came through the system so how if she lived in the Highlands would she know not being caught up in the system and aware that your organisation is there how do you reach out to those groups of people that's what I'm trying to say not people that's already in the system but people that through no fault of their own become homeless and they need help how do they know in the Highlands that you're there to help them well again I think come back to the point I made earlier that the notion that looked after children and formally looked after children are in the system they are identified and they are known about and they do have privileged access to support and guidance from a range of agencies we have another group of young people who have never been in the system but who find themselves homeless or at some other point of crisis in their life at a very young age 16 and typically they will come to my organisation normally because they've been required to present as homeless to the local authority and at that stage there might have been some social work involvement so it's reactive, it's not proactive and I think that's a significant issue and it stops agencies like my own working what I might say reflexively with young people we are only coming into contact with them after a significant amount of damage has already been impacted upon their life Jordan? When I became homeless at the age of 16 I was luckily still at school so there was support there available and that's how I got in touch with white people because I got in touch with the school and they put me on to the head teacher it was still during Christmas holidays because it was boxing day I became homeless I then got in touch with the headmaster of the school who then referred me to social work because I'd never had any previous social work involvement they put my case to the side immediately and they didn't talk to me because I was just 16 so then the school had to go about themselves and actually organise that with white people so that I've supported social work because I had no previous social work involvement already at the age of 16 there was no support available for me there and that's something that doesn't need to be addressed immediately Are you lucky that you happen to have the right people within the school who can do that? Yeah definitely luckily for myself I have very good friends with the headmaster's daughter which is how I was able to get in touch with him directly but there are young people out there who aren't in school who don't have these relationships and perhaps don't go to school that's as supportive as my school was and they're not able to get that I was extremely fortunate that I was only a few days out sleeping at a neighbour's house before I was managed to get into why people luckily I've never had to sleep on the streets but for people that do do that there is no way for them to go and get the support this was presented to me by my school they went and did the work for that and they did that of their own accord because social work just put it to the side Can we move on now because I know you want to say and ask make some statements about education and I know Christian has got some questions he wants to ask about education employment and housing as well so can I pass over to you Christian? Yes thanks very much I would like to start with what was talked about by Paul about welfare reform and about bedroom tax but I would like to ask young people how do they feel the state's operation how do you feel when you come into a secure accommodation how secure it is I know Connor talked about it is the bedroom tax is welfare reform is it something in your radar is it something how the impact goes on young people who secure that accommodation how do you feel that you somehow feeling secure because of it I would like to know if you've got any experience of the letters you receive for example See I've never been in my accommodation although that's not for the one to try I must say but I think from what I've heard just people here today and certainly siblings who are in their own accommodation it's not easy and it's not an easy feeling and I think as well a lot of the time when people talk about homelessness you think on the streets and stuff like that but when you move into your house that's not a home that's a house and you're expected to pay things like bedroom tax and stuff like that and I think let's say it's quite a difficult one because I haven't been in my accommodation to make young people properly feel like their home is their home there has to be appropriate supports but then I would also say there has to be something that helps towards things like bedroom tax because not all young people who move into their own accommodation have employment which means they're there for maybe having to sign on which I've had to do myself in the past that is not an easy thing to do and the level of things like tax that you're talking about you have to pay it makes it difficult to settle in a particular home and for young people in particular in any way from my experience from young people who have been in a care background and young people even to some extent some young people who haven't but I've had sort of rough childhoods and stuff like that they're already in vulnerable positions and to put them in a house and expect them to know how to cope because they're vulnerable and their self-esteem levels which are already low go below rock bottom as well because they just feel as though how am I supposed to support myself who's out there to help me why am I being left myself is it something I've done and all these questions constantly run through your mind and I just think there has to be something more concrete for these young people who are still unexpected to know what to do straight away If I can add that maybe other young people can give their experience to have that secure accommodation and being on your own is too daunting because of what you hear from your sibling or from your friends who are in that situation is that a difficult transition to make I would say is it a difficult transition it's a scary transition I don't think certainly if you look at the point of view I don't think there is enough preparation for it so I think that makes it even more difficult because no one teaches you the basic things that you need to know to move into something that's supposed to be yours like I remember leaving the unit I stayed in and I didn't really know how to do a lot I didn't really know how to properly do a wash and a wash machine and stuff like that I kind of knew about cooking but that was more from school than it was from the actual challenge that I had lived in at the time and just other basic things like basic household skills like if you buy something like a cupboard or something like that from a shop you need to know how to build it so you can use it but no one teaches you how to do that no one teaches you the necessary budgeting skills either so you can set out a plan if you get paid monthly or whatever so you can set out a plan each month to say right that's my money for electricity that's my money for gas, this is my money for food no one shows you all those things and I think that I just think there has to be more preparation people have to know how to do this in order for them to feel secure in their own accommodation something extremely important that I'd like to bring up is throughout my school life my homelessness did affect that to some extent and suddenly I wasn't doing as well in school and I was really struggling luckily I did manage to get into university and after building bridges with my mum again to be able to claim a student loan you need to declare your parents income regardless if you've been homeless you need to be out of that system for more than three years out of education and working with a certain income to claim as an independent student this meant that when I went to uni I had to declare my mother's income and I was afraid to keep going at uni I did manage to, I have got into some debt that I've managed to get out of now is our full time job over the summer however there are many students who have been homeless that now have to live in their own accommodation who then have to give up their dreams of having a degree simply because they cannot afford to come off their benefits there is no benefit system available to students that are in higher education to claim housing costs this means they have to then go to the discretionary fund at the university where people who have been homeless in the past were more than three months, for example are able to claim some level of benefit towards their housing because say they're only getting there and the non-income assessed loans currently stands at £400,000 and they're not getting any support from their family or people who cannot get a hold of their relevant P6s and documents have to claim a non-income assessed loan this means that they cannot claim the discretionary fund that universities provide this means they're having to give us up I'd like to see something implemented on £175 per month that's not enough to pay travel costs rent university fees well university costs things like books etc it's simply not enough and this is an equal opportunities committee here and we need to make sure that everyone has got the chance to go on and have a higher education thank you very much Paul I think Christian asked about experience of benefits and so on I've highlighted the fact that the experience of the benefit system doesn't typically start until an individual has moved on and they're living independently and I think when that happens what we are seeing now is that there are significant delays and claims being settled that leads to a significant amount of uncertainty on the part of the individual which creates a lot of worry and hardship that uncertainty isn't alleviated until the claim is settled and that can be a number of months I think with the benefit system generally I think certainly in the Highlands and we're nice and particular universal credit is being piloted the administration of that seems to be complicated unnecessarily complicated and poor leading to a great deal of confusion and contributing to uncertainty and I think when you've got vulnerable people who are trying to engage with that system which must be done electronically that leads to sanctions being imposed on individuals and the loss of benefit contributing to the problems again so to answer Christian's question directly I think the impact is one of uncertainty significantly was of uncertainty and that is impacting upon the individual's ability to move forward with their life in a significant way Thank you Christian Thank you Rachael Davies Thank you Rachael Davies Thank you Rachael Davies Thank you Rachael Davies And if I want to go back into education as well I know you have a very good experience and it's fantastic the way you went through and you said it yourself your own connections, your personal connections we heard about Charlie as well I would like to know if other young people can give us an idea of this if they felt that they were sanctioned because the fact that they were homeless maybe they were at college and I know if you miss certain days of college you can end up out of the course so is there any young people who can give us some idea a secondary school attack college as well if they felt or maybe if they wanted to go into university and thought it was not possible what are their experience Charlie Do you want me? I can't hear what you are saying Sorry it's just about your experience when you were at secondary school you said that it was quite difficult but you managed did you feel maybe your secondary school was very good to you but do you think that maybe you didn't receive that positive response from your secondary school and maybe other young people didn't get that positive response to the country maybe were told that they couldn't stay at college or they would be penalised if they missed more of the school if they already missed Well with my situation obviously being homeless at secondary school is quite difficult itself and to be honest with you I didn't want anybody to know that I was sleeping in the streets it's no one else's business it's my business and it's for me the other way but the main two things that stopped me from doing that was trust in relationships I had no trust with anybody I had no trust with any teachers because they were so mean against me because I had behavioural problems I'm there for a reason I'm there to get educated I'm not there to be spoken to as if I'm one of their friends or that I think it's really difficult for young people that are living in supported accommodations in hostels to get into any sort of training or education I tried for several, several years to get into college to do NC and social care because that's what I wanted to do but because I had been living in a supported accommodation it came down to the money fact everything in this planet is about money and it shouldn't be about money it should be about giving the kids whether you're from a care background or you're living with your parents every kid should have an opportunity of some sort of education and training but doesn't it hurt them? I don't understand why Scotland would be somebody that stops young people from getting an education because that's what's going to make people getting training getting them into employment I struggled and just going on the back of the hand of the other I was trying to get in to ask the question I've had to give up my own tenancy the one that I fought for for years and years I've had to give that up because my the debt that I got into because I didn't know how to pay rent I didn't know how to pay gas and electricity because I never done it in a supported accommodation nobody showed me how to do that I was forced into that flat I didn't know that there was two or three options that you could get under the section five and the fact that when I moved into my tenancy I had support workers for six weeks and I asked for extra time with them so that I could learn how to I know how to budget but I didn't know how to pay like my rent and do a show on all your basic stuff I didn't have that like they stuck with me for six weeks and I asked for a reason on a reason to something in life and the reason was because the funding that they had to support me was stopped because I had been with them for three and a half years and they told me that was the only option that I had to take but then it turns out that it wasn't the only option I had I could have waited until I got a house that I could similar call home I don't see homes as homes right now because it's not mines I'm not in control yet I really I kind of stress Mertie's how strong I feel about children and young people getting into education and training nothing should stop them from doing that and I think we really need to really need to think about that because we're going to have kids that are just going to go down their wrong paths in life and it's because no one wants going to come in and then join if anyone wants to come in listening to what you have all been saying do you think if there was something like an adult foster carer that could take you into their homes till you were ready to leave or be appointed to you as a fosterer while you can through that transition from maybe moving from your home support into your own house and stay with you to actually feel you don't need them again do you think that would help you? I don't think that's where the problem is I think the problem is when people are actually being forced out of their accommodation whether it's homelessness whether it's your foster carers or supported carers it's the fact that young people are being forced out of their own accommodation I was forced out of my last accommodation because of money whether it's your supporter person that was there when you needed them I think it would work but there also needs to be other support networks alongside that okay Connor and then sorry John Finney I just want to say that there is actually already supported carers in place and they are essentially so that's where I'm currently living just now is with a supported carer and what they do is they leave an age of a challenging the average of about 16, 17 they come in and there will be not all young people get the opportunity unfortunately to access it but you then do go and move to their house and I've been with my current supported carer for three years however what would say is that I don't actually think although there are supported carers out there I don't actually think it's working because I think a lot of the time when you leave a children's unit you still don't know any skills so you move into someone's house and they're supposed to teach you the skills but then they're not been given the opportunity to do so because local authorities when you move into that supported accommodation seem to be in too much a hurry to then get you out of that accommodation and into your own accommodation again before you've probably been given the opportunity to have someone there and I think there are aspects of it that are good and I think the fact that they can act as a go-between so that the transition is not as maybe not as rough as it would be if you just went straight in I think not a lot of people are made aware of the fact that there is, that does exist and what I would say not a lot of people get the opportunity to use it either it's very rare, there's not a lot of supported carers and because of that only select people will get the opportunity and my view I think all young people should be given that opportunity and I don't think they should be rushed out with that opportunity either because that is setting each and every young person that you rush out that is setting them up to failing life and that is not what we should be encouraging young people to do Thank you very much for that Connor, John Thank you convener there's a lot of very positive terms are used in these conversations and one of them is housing support duty I wonder if some of the young people in that indeed tell us whether they've had a housing support assessment at any time I know you have all very personal experiences but if you're aware of these terms and indeed if that term means anything to the agencies because it seems to me that the word support should play a pivotal role in all of this No Paul I think support is the pivotal feature I think now listening to Charlene and Connor reflects my own experience I think which is that what we need to be developing here I think is relationships it's not really about buildings it's about developing relationships it's about making sure that young people have got others in their life that they can look up to that they can benefit from that they can take guidance and advice from and the idea of a mentor I think might be a useful one rather than supported carers or foster homes for adults I think mentoring individuals and having that personal relationship that they can go to when they've got a difficulty that they don't understand or an issue that they find troubles them to deal with they can get that advice and a largely informal basis might be helpful Claudia Just a sort of answer Young people upon leaving care tend to engage with us in relation to housing-related issues when they are having decisions made to them in relation to their housing support etc one of the things just to pick up on Paul's point about mentoring one of the things with regard I think it's a great idea and we actually actively pursue that amongst the young people's networks that we have however if you take the comparison of yourself and if you were having to experience a situation, a legal situation where we were maybe being threatened or threatened with bankruptcy or something along those lines we would expect to engage with a lawyer and a legal representative and a professional representative to help us negotiate and realise our rights unfortunately we are seeing young care leavers not able to engage with those services with professional dedicated services and we believe that that's why there has to be safeguards in the system I think there has to be a continuum of support from peer relationships from care friendships informal relationships because that's the ultimate safeguard and these young people absolutely deserve that and we find as an advocate or organisation we're using our professional independent advocates to realise rights in Scotland for these young people Thank you Moving on, I don't know if Siobhan wants anything to ask is there anything you want to ask Siobhan I was just going to ask something about the follow on from Christian convener about obviously we've done a report and that's why we've asked people back into experiences and one of the things we spoke about in the last report was a community care grant and obviously that's changed now into the social fund and the Scottish welfare fund so we're just funding from the organisations probably and not for the individuals because I don't know if you've had experience of trying to get a grant for tenancies the lead-in is now up to eight weeks we're told has that made a difference is it too early to say it's made a difference if anyone's got an opinion on that Jordan When I applied for my community care grant when I first moved out of the supported accommodation at C4th house I went into the house with literally nothing there was light in the walls where I stay a lot of work needed done I applied for the community care grant and I was not back twice before I had to get an intervention done through another organisation that why people works closely with before I was given an amount and even then I was given a very low amount how much was needed how much was asked for and then I had to seek support from a school and from local Rotary clubs just put carpets on my floors there's something needs to be done about it the fact that they're knocking people back Matthew Yeah, in Highland I've only just found this out recently we have access to I believe it's section 25 money I believe it's a discretionary fund social work and they can provide grants up to £1,500 for young people moving on into their own tenancy but the problem is that doesn't even come close to covering the cost as Jordan's just pointed out the cost for just carpets alone can run into £600 to £800 just depending on how big the property is it's not factoring all the white goods you need etc so that needs to change Thank you Just on a different subject Claudia, you spoke about the Children and Young People's Act and obviously in your written paper as well spoke a lot about that and others have I'm just wondering obviously there's changes next April to what happens with the Young People's Residential Foster Accountship Care and the ages going up to 21 we understand now so what difference do you think that would make and are there other differences that we should be looking out for in legislation it will need time to embed but what should we be looking at as a committee? Okay, I think there's a few things that as any co-opportunities committee there's a lot of encouragement to take from the legislative provisions enacted from April next year with regards to looked after children and with regards to what's being referred to as the continuing care provisions that effectively means that a young person in kinship foster a residential placement should be able to stay up until 21 if they feel they want to and that should be a right which they should exercise and as soon as it's exercised it should be taken into account and the placements just effectively be available to that young person I think as with any piece of legislation there's always the requirement to make sure that the intentions of it are completely followed through in practice one of the worries that we have but we are working alongside Scottish Government colleagues on is to make sure that practice realises the best possible practice young people must be informed from social workers from other co-op appearance in their lives that they have that entitlement obviously one of the things that happens when a young person is in care around about 15 is beyond the formal supervision order life beyond that is starting to be thought about but at that point and before that point we must be talking to young people about the what being in care in that care placement for an extra 2, 3, 4 and sometimes 5 years would meet to them the decisions they could make the mistakes they could make and learn from and pretty much allow them to kind of grow up a bit with a bit more support around them we would hope that the continuing care lot is actively encouraged and that young people understand their right and their entitlement to request to stay put in that placement with regards to the expansion of co-op parenting we believe it should be welcomed by this committee that there are now 24 co-op parents in Scotland with the formal duty to give regard to looked after children and young care leavers well being we also think that this committee would probably be encouraged by the fact that well being has been put in legislation for the first time ever and you know this obviously takes forward the girfe contention and puts it into the face of legislation which again we actively welcome the aftercare provisions have also been increased to 26 which again we are very encouraged by we believe that that extra entitlement of another 5 years beyond the leasing care going into independent living should be welcomed and should be encouraged by again all co-op parents for young people to take advantage of obviously there are pitfalls to any legislation realising their legislative intentions and we must make sure that practitioners at all levels and all of the co-op parents understand the duties and the implications of the duties and how to apply them sometimes we find that young care leavers and people who are looked after unfortunately stumble at the first block with an organisation and that sometimes can be a receipt someone on the phone and they may feel that they are being judged because of their status so we have to make sure that all levels of all CPs have a general working understanding of what a look after child's life is like and also implications of the new act but we are very encouraged by the intentions that could possibly be realised for Scotland's look after children and care leavers that's very comprehensive because back to what the convener said earlier about how the care leavers get that message to young people because of course Sharlene's explained if you don't know where to turn to then you can't get the information so what can we do as a committee in calling for obviously our work mother Scottish Government which is great but what should we be asking for how do you think that message could get so I think there's a few things I think first of all it is a classic case of you don't know what you don't know and you can't know it until you know it and that's sort of what we see time and time again on the young people that we advocate on behalf of information has to be available as widely and as readily and as many formats as possible there also is duty to inform placed in the Children and Young People Act and that duty to inform must be evidenced previously legislation was maybe with regards looked after children and young care leavers was maybe not tight enough in placing that duty to inform on to the statutory services and we believe that duty to inform must be questioned, must be queried and a young person must be able to challenge that if they feel they've not been informed with regards to information we believe that all corporate parents and that's teachers, that's nurses it's doctors, it's GPs it's effectively all the community anchors that we see around our streets and around our environments we believe that there should be information promoting what the rights are to young care leavers and to young people that are looked after in these communities and we believe that's also vitally important for young people that are looked after at home and maybe also on kinship care and young people that are maybe not around so many statutory services by virtue of their residential care status but again sometimes we believe that we also have to take the advice from what young people say works in terms of receiving information and that's been told things repetitively it's been told things by a variety of people it's been told things in a variety of formats and it's been reminded as often as possible from the people that you trust about what rights you have and again that goes back to the point that we've all echoed the young people and the organisations alike around this table relationships matter to young people trust in relationships matter and if we empower these relationships to be available to young people and to stay with young people I believe that that is the predominant way which young people know what's available to them and what rights they have Thank you very much There's one category of accommodation that hasn't been mentioned this far unless I've didn't pick it up if it has I'm sorry if that's the case and I'd like to ask about care leavers on temporary bed and breakfast accommodation I've posed a couple of parliamentary questions and there are very, very detailed responses there covering every local authority and they suggest that the number of young people who have been care leavers who are presenting as homeless has fallen by 40% in five years but nonetheless one in five young carers who had presented as homeless spent time in B&B during their application period temporary accommodations so I wonder if any of our young people have experience of that being the case then there is a requirement to have national minimum standards of quality of temporary accommodation for care leavers enshrined in statute Any of the young people like to answer or will we move on to the organisations? Jill? With regards to bed and breakfast I feel that for the young people that come through our project for a start really they've not got any support when they're in bed and breakfast so they're on their own and that's not good that's not good so yeah we do need more places made available rather than bed and breakfast being an option without a doubt Galen? I don't think a young person experienced being un care should be in a B&B or a hostel just on the back end of what Julie's saying is that your name? Sorry they don't get support and if I'm a 16 year old going into a B&B you have got a variety of ages of men and older women and a lot of the time there's a lot of peer pressure that could be different ages but I think that's the right environment for a young care leaver to be in that environment to be surrounded by people and I think just on the other hand that I want to touch on I don't think it's right that male and female should be sharing but that might be just something personal to me but I just don't think it's approached but I don't think it's right Thank you John, are you okay? Can I bring John Mason in now? Perhaps Paul will want to comment on the issue at all John about temporary emergency accommodation I'm a little sceptical with the figures that you've quoted I have to say my experience is that temporary emergency accommodation is used very frequently for formally looked after young people as their accommodation it's also allocated to other young people who don't have a history in the care system as their accommodation I think Charlene has accurately identified the fact that young people going into that type of accommodation are often exploited they do often very quickly encounter the world of drink and drugs and get involved in that and that leads to obvious problems in my view temporary emergency accommodation for young people is always inappropriate it should never be used for that and I absolutely agree that there should be guidance and standards imposed to stop it being used in an ad hoc way Can I take John Mason and then we need to start winding up On the point of being intentionally homeless I mean I've certainly had a case in my constituency where the suggestion was it was very difficult to persuade the council that somebody was unintentionally homeless and if somebody had been sofa surfing the council wanted to know all the details of all the places they'd been at which was difficult for the person because some of the people they'd been staying with didn't want that disclosed and I just wonder if that was an issue or if it's an issue in particular areas perhaps like Glasgow or if it's an issue that people have come across Charlene I'll give you a quick example when I got my first ever tendency it was through a supported accommodation speech I went through various problems and issues where my neighbour up the stair putting things through my door lighting things, putting it through my door went to my house and association five times didn't get anywhere with them tried to get some support by my supported workers who refused blank to help me because the young person up the stair was also supported by the accommodation and so therefore when I went to my house and association I told them that I was leaving because I didn't feel safe I felt as if my life was threatened because who, in the right mind should be living in that environment with people like that there was no support there and the first word that came out the housing officers mouth was you're making yourself intentional and homeless that is always a reason for young people leaving their flats and that's where people need to go that's where the housing officers need to sit down and chat to them they're no making themselves intentional homeless and I think that word should be just gone because it's no right to be using it we should just say homeless on that that should be full stop because there's always a reason why young people end up on the streets or end up back into that circle of going around hostels and supported accommodations and I think that's the reasons that they need to get to they don't need to just go but you're just making yourself intentional homeless because you're okay to see you later if they give the young people the time of day and actually look into the enquiries why that young person does not feel safe in their own home when they should actually feel safe in their own home I just all can very briefly yes absolutely I think intentionality is an important issue there's a fair bit of subjectivity around the criteria that are applied to decide when intentionality applies some local authorities now are limiting the offers of social housing to prospective tenants and where an individual refuses to take a tenancy in an area that they find unsuitable because there are relationships that they wish to avoid in that particular area all too often we're hearing that they have to take it otherwise they'll be found to be intentionally homeless they won't get any more offers and I think Charlene again actually identifies the fact that some individuals living in unsuitable accommodation that really need to move on and they make that decision that they have to move on for their own wellbeing are being considered intentionally homeless as well and I think that's an appropriate also thank you very much before I actually conclude today's meeting can I actually say thank you to every single young person that actually came today you actually have been an inspiration to us all and I'm really really moved by what I've actually heard so thank you very much that actually concludes today's meeting and our next meeting will take place on Thursday 25th September thank you