Either you want to ask a question and you will ask your question yourself, but you just want to, you know, I'm gonna put everybody in a certain, not an order, but I'm gonna have a list of who's gonna ask, and I'm gonna ask you to ask your question yourself. You can send me a message for that, but you can also send me a message with your question itself, and I'll ask it on your behalf to the speakers if you want some anonymity, because you want to ask a question that you think I don't know. You want some anonymity, okay? You can send me a message and I'll ask the speakers the question for you, okay? But please do so, and even if you stole me, you want to ask a question, just send me a message. It's easier that way, and I have a list, and I can just name you and you can ask a question, or I will ask a question myself, okay? And is everybody gonna be here? Who's gonna be here for speakers? We've got a couple of speakers that are gonna be here. But mainly, I think, like you said, questions can be general about pretty much anything. Welcome back. I hope everybody had a good lunch. So let me continue. And this is something I feel much more comfortable, because I'm speaking about reality. And in general, I'm talking about three categories of compounds. It's materialization of quantum spin liquid. One is the organic triangular system. And the second one, I would like to discuss about Kagome lattice quantum spin liquid. And at the end, I would like to discuss about the type of quantum spin liquid on Hanikama lattice. But before speaking about reality, let me give you a few comments on how to identify quantum spin liquid experimentally. So somehow, we are looking for state of nothingness. Something I get the question, why are you looking for such a boring state? Nothing there. Okay. But I think the first thing experiment that does access is measurement of magnetic susceptibility. Okay. And if you do see famous curious behavior at high temperature, that is kind of evidence for low tide moment. And in general, if you have magnet ordering, you are supposed to see kink in magnetic susceptibility. Okay. So that's kind of an undergraduate class. But this is often called the QD plot. So plot of one over chi, you know, versus temperature. Okay. And you can find this even in Kitte textbook. You know, if you plot one over chi versus temperature. Okay. Normally, anti pheromagnet, you see kind of linear behavior. And expect to QD-wise temperature. Exemplation closes, you know, at minus QD-wise temperature. Okay. And this is some sort of near field transition temperature. And also a very good measure of interaction.  But otherwise, you know, this is very good measure of, you know, interaction. And this ratio, you know, mean field transition temperature versus real transition temperature, near temperature is often called, you know, a frustration parameter. So that characterizes the degree of frustration.  And the ratio of QD-wise temperature and near temperature is over the order of one. This is a boring mean field magnet. Okay.  Okay. So, because, you know, torsion is suppressed to lower temperature. So therefore, the ratio between QD-wise, you know, versus, you know, near temperature is more than one. So typically, you know, we often find the ratio of 10, you know, even kind of 1000 in frustrated magnet. So this frustration parameter often shows up in the literature. Okay.   In terms of frustration parameter, if you don't see any kick, frustration parameter is kind of infinite. It depends on degree of disorder. And the small disorder, we don't care. But the big disorder, you know, it kind of smeared out. And often, if that is the case, we see kind of grassy behavior. And the grassy behavior means that if you measure sustainability on cooling or warming, you see some hysteresis. And that's kind of a, you know, grassy behavior is also a signature of freezing of spring moment, but in a random way.  That's a very good question.  So, in that sense, you know, specific heat, you know, are easily to measure.  And maybe, you know, you can go neutron scattering or X-ray magnetic scattering. However, it's easy to say, oh, there is, you know, magnetic peak. Okay? But it's not that easy. It's kind of negative proof. So, oh, there is no magnetic peak. Okay? And often, actually, in order to see, you know, kind of absence of any kind of ordering, many experienced go either enamel or muon spin rotation. They are quite sensitive to internal field.   Okay? So, they are kind of often used to prove for, you know, absence of magnetic ordering. Okay? And you'll see that in a minute. Okay?   Right? Of course, observing continuum is a direct evidence of fractional rotation. So, you may want to go, you know, Neutron eniastic scattering to characterize, you know, continuum. But on the other hand, you know, you have to be careful. Neutron colleagues are quite greedy.  But if you find a new compound, it's not, you know, that easy to get cubic, you know, CC crystal. And so, if, you know, you have difficulty to go Neutron eniastic scattering, but still, you can sense elementary excitation. For example, you know, from, you know, susceptibility. If it is kind of a gap pool, you know, you see exponential supplation of susceptibility, reflecting gap. But if you have a gap-less spin liquid, normally, you know, susceptibility, go to a finite value, at t equals zero limit. And from that, somehow, you can tell whether, you know, your spin liquid is kind of a gap pool or a gap-less or the same is true for specific heat. And if you have kind of a gap-less spin liquid, like if you have spin on Fermi's surface, right? So you see t-linear specific heat, like, you know, metal. Metal, because of presence of, you know, finite, you know, density of state of electrons, you see t-linear specific heat. And in some of, you know, quantum spin liquid candidate, you see t-linear specific heat, like, just like a metal, though they are insular.  As you noticed, you know, from the talk by Yuji Matsuda last week. Since, you know, spin doesn't carry any charge, right? So you cannot use a current meter to measure, you know, property of your quantum spin liquid.      That means, you know, your excitation is kind of mobile. Okay? So that's kind of an important point. Okay?  Okay?  But yeah, since then, we have, you know, a couple of compounds, okay, discovered.  So now, you know, we have plenty of examples. Okay? And among them, let me speak about first, RBB type, you know, quantum spin liquid in organics, which is supposed to be the cleanest quantum spin liquid. Then, okay, this one along.  Okay? And then, you know, finally, I would like to discuss, you know, quantum spin liquid. So let me begin with organic system as, you know, cleanest example of quantum spin liquid. And I'm going to speak about those zero two compound. Okay? So I have to confess. I don't know how to read it. I was horrible in chemistry class. And I don't understand the organic chemistry. Okay?  And so, like a sodium chloride. And so, that's why they are called charge transfer salt. Okay? So, you know, the molecule is kind of neutral. But charge is kind of transferred. Electrons are kind of transferred from yellow molecule to white molecule. Okay? So, like this BEDT TTF system. Okay? So, you have kind of stack of, you know, BEDT molecule layer and some acceptor layer, you know, colored in white. And donor layer, acceptor layer. And the charge is kind of electron kind of transferred from yellow to white. Okay?  Right? But by transferring one charge, you know, they have, you know, odd number of electrons. And because those kind of molecules, you know, are kind of highly kind of localized.   And as you see from two, actually, you know, you have a pair of molecule called a dimer. Okay? And those, you know, pair of dimer share one electron or to be put one hole. Okay? By transferring charge to acceptor layer. Okay? And those kind of electrons are kind of highly kind of localized and form, you know, electron crystal, multi-insulating state. Okay? And as you see, you know, in the real space, they align like this.  And there are kind of two type of interaction. Okay? One is, you know, called T. And the other is, you know, T-ply. Okay? So, like this. So, therefore, if, you know, T and the T-ply is kind of comparable. Okay? And now, you know, magnetic interaction between spin one-half, you know, moment kind of an equal on the triangular lattice.  Okay? Two-dimensional S equal one-half triangular moment. Okay? And in fact, for, okay, and the, you know, the basic structure is the same for this palladium demittinum compound. Okay? And this compound, okay?  You can control, you know, kind of lattice constant. And you can change, you know, ratio between T and T-ply. Okay?  Okay? And as you see, there are a number of compounds with different, you know, you know, acceptor layer.  As you see, okay, this, this means anti-ferromagnetic transition. So, the frustration is not strong enough. Okay? They do experience anti-ferromagnetic order. Like coming close to T-ply-mico-1, okay? Somehow, this, you know, mean feel like transition is kind of suppressed gradually by increasing, you know, frustration. And eventually, you know, around, you know, 0.1, 0.9, 90 percent, okay, those structural phase transition kind of disappeared. Okay? And this is a specific compound. They say it's located, you know, around here. Okay?  But they have one-to-one-to-point-to-nine ratio triangle. But still, they do see quantum spin-legged state. And how do I know the grand state of those, you know, organic components, quantum spin-legged? Okay. So, here is, you know, plot of NMO signal. Okay? So, somehow, each, you know, correspond to magnetic field, your kind of nuclear fields. This case, a carbon nuclear field. Okay?  And normally, anti-ferromagnetic, you know, you have a different magnetic field. So, therefore, peak springs.  So, you do see a broadening of peak. Okay? And this, you know, compound, okay? This compound, T is not equal to T prime. I think, like, over the point, you know, seven. Okay? And on cooling, okay, another 25 point K, you see sprit of peak. Okay? And this circuit represents magnetic ordering. So, they created the internal kind of magnetic field. And as a result, the peak in the sprit. Okay? This is very clear signature of magnetic order.  Down to 30 millimeter, you know, you don't see anything. So, that's kind of a signature of massive, state of nothing. And the same compound, the different compound, you know, paradigm compound, okay, you don't see anything. Down to 20 millimeter. Yes. Okay, there is that kind of study. Yeah. And so, they do study some sort of a quantum critical point. And in particular, organic is extremely soft, right? So, even a small amount of pressure, you can change lattice constant a lot. So, that's kind of big advantage of organics. Okay. So, okay, those compound, you know, you know, we do see kind of the state of nothing. That's why they go, this should be quantum spin.  And if, you know, we have, you know, a way like ground state, it's equal to one excitation split into two spin and a half, you know, excitation called spinon. And that's kind of very unique. And they could form some sort of a Fermi surface of spinon, like, you know, one day, right? And can I detect, you know, fractionalization in quantum spin liquid? So, let me give you first textbook explanation of free electrons. And if you take a look at Tito textbook, there is a discussion on free electrons.  And that is scaled by density of states. Okay. And there is a T linear specific heat. People often call it gamma. Okay. That is, again, scaled by density of states. And those kind of thrift are the kind of constant, like a Boltzmann constant. Right? Therefore, if you have, you know, free electron, the ratio of, you know, Pauli susceptibility in magnetic susceptibility. And specific heat, you know, T linear constant gamma should be constant. Okay. And in metal, we often, you know, take a ratio of chi and gamma and call it, you know, Wilson ratio. And if we have free electron metal, this ratio, okay, normalized by this constant should be one. But in reality, if you have a kind of free molecule and the interaction, this factor, you know, they will, can, they will form one, but normally it's over the order of one. So, observing Wilson ratio close to one is a very good signature of having a free molecule. So, this is for free electrons. And if you have, you know, Fermi surface spin, in essence, yeah, we should have, we can have, you know, quite a similar phenomenon, because spinon has spin, right? So, they can, yeah, to magnetic field, like free electrons. And they have entropy. The difference is, you know, those quantum spin liquid is uninsulated. However, we have, you know, chi-neutral excitation called spinons. And they behave like, you know, free electron, right? And they can, can we see something like that, okay? So, here's the picture, okay? So, okay, this is susceptibility.  And the, the, there's a kind of glow peak, and it eventually goes down, and the susceptibility approaches, you know, finite value, okay? Over the order of 3 to the 10 to the minus 4, okay? So, there seems to be a finite susceptibility, okay? And again, you know, let me emphasize no kink observed, okay, consistent with the absence of any magnetic ordering, okay? And the susceptibility approaches a finite value, means, you know, we seem to have some sort of finite, you know, densitric excitation and the spin-liquid kind of gapless, okay? And the major specific heat, or semi-compound, okay? This is, you know, C over T versus T square plot, you know, kind of a classical way of plotting specific heat at low temperature. And the extrapolation to T called zero, okay, give you gamma values, T over T values, you know, this is a standard analysis for metal, okay?  And the magnetically ordered, you know, compound, you know, this specific heat, C over T, go to zero, that means no finite gamma value, or no density of states. But those, you know, colored compound is kind of spin-liquid compound, then you see they exerted finite value around 10 millijoule per mole square, okay? So, somehow, both susceptibility and a specific heat show to, you know, we have kind of finite density of states, yes. Yeah, actually, some people, some theorists have discussed that, but we didn't see any kind of oscillation at all there. Yeah, there's a discussion like that, yeah. Yes. Could you speak loudly? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, there's a kind of clear signature of magnetic ordering here. Yeah, yeah. So, this is kind of a reference, yeah. But I'm talking about this compound, and this is the kind of susceptibility I'm talking about, okay? So, how do you like susceptibility? And if I take ratio, actually, somehow, you know, the ratio is almost one. Amazing, right? It's insulator, no electron running, but ratio is kind of close to one, and a finite liquid. So, we have no adjustable parameter, but the ratio is just, you know, close to one. So, like maybe, yeah, yeah, some, if you are kind of experimentalist, if you could remember, okay, like a 10 to the minus 4 in the susceptibility, it's roughly 10 millijoule in terms of gamma, if it was on ratio one, okay? So, take a look at 10 to the minus 4 in the 10, you immediately see, you know, yeah. You know, in terms of real-time ratio, the contribution is kind of consistent with each other, okay? This is kind of another compound, you know, I showed.  But, you know, gamma is also kind of enhanced by fact out of two. So, therefore, the ratio again close to one. So, although we don't have any free electrons in the system, but clearly, there is some excitation which satisfies the, you know, recent ratio, go one. So, yeah, this could be a very strong signature of, we have some sort of Fermi surface of spinon in those compounds. And even bigger supply that brought, you know, by Yuji Matsuda, he was a speaker last week. And he measured thermal conductivity of, you know, the semi-none compound. And if you take a look at Hitler's textbook, okay, thermal conductivity is scaled by specific heat and the velocity, the velocity is kind of a, you know, slope of dispersion and the mean free path, okay? So, kind of thermal conductivity essentially pull off the specific heat. However, they have to carry heat. So, there is a factor mean free path, okay? And if, you know, your excitation is kind of localized, okay, mean free path zero, okay? So, therefore, you don't detect your excitation in thermal conductivity channel, okay? And so, they brought the quantity kappa divided by T, okay? So, C divided T is nothing but gamma, right? So, gamma times mean free path, okay? And here is, you know, quantum spin degree compound. And you see finite intercept. And we more or less know velocity, okay, from, you know, energy scale of interaction. And we know what is gamma, you know, okay, from here. So, we can estimate, you know, what is L? And Yuji kind of estimated L should be at larger one micron. So, this fluctuate like, like excitation can trouble really over one micron. Amazing, right? So, that's why they start discussing, you know, whether, you know, can we have some sort of a magnetic field is active. But this means, you know, our excitation is kind of a highly mobile.  And they are kind of highly mobile. Oh, in that sense, yeah, you know, I believe this, you know, organic triangular magnet is kind of a best example, yeah. Yeah, so I think it's roughly one nanometer. Yeah, like oxide is 0.3, 0.4. And, yeah, not one or another magnitude, but, you know, factor of 2, 3. Also, actually, yeah, another way to take a look at that is, like, if you measure kind of a metal, okay, you are supposed to have, you know, finite T linear term in thermal conductivity due to finite gamma term.   Brass, actually, at Roteba Schwarz, you know, quite similar magnitude of T linear term. So, like, this, you know, quantum magnet is insulator. However, as you know, thermally conducting as, you know, brass, okay. So something, you know, must be telling it, right? That's great, isn't it, right? So in this sense, I think at moment, this represents, you know, kind of physics of spin on, you know, in a nice manner. Of course, there are many issues kind of left, you know, even in organic, you know, spin leakage. For example, so I showed you kind of two compounds, okay, and this compound we saw, you know, highly mobile kind of, you know, excitations, okay.  So this kind of reflects some sort of density of spin excitations. And somehow, in the temperature dependence around 1K, you see some clear anomaly. And at the moment, you know, people don't understand what they did, okay. So I showed there below 1K, and that to nicely follow, you know, this Wilson ratio equal 1, but above that, you know, we see some anomaly there. And at the moment, they don't know what they did. And some of, you know, romantic theorists discusses that this could be a fake transition of a spin-on-fame surface, like that. But still, you know, we don't understand what they did. Other issue is kind of, yeah, this actually, I can link my lecture to Andrei. Somehow, all those kind of organic compounds, right next to those quantum spin liquid, you always find superconductivity. Some people discuss those quantum spin liquid physics might have something to do with superconductivity.  They show superconductivity, as well. In that sense, you know, you find superconductivity not only when you have quantum spin liquid in the state, but also, you know, even when you have, you know, magnetically ordered state, you find superconductivity. Yes. This, this, this fake, yeah, this is, this is a weak, very weak, you know, fast order. So, there is some critical point, you know, more critical point, you know, here. And above that, you see kind of close-over. That's what this, and some people discussed, you know, kind of critical point, you know, here in terms of more criticality. That's actually not, not many are known. Yeah.  One is magnetically ordered. Second one is quantum spin liquid. Third one is so-called, you know, charge ordered. So, you have kind of one electron per side, but this electron moved to the next side, and the former, you know, very strong, you know, I shouldn't say dimer, but you have kind of two electron, zero electron, two electron, zero electron, that kind of charge order state. And I'm not sure, actually, this specific case, you know, represents the charge order of the case, but I suspect this could be charge order state. Any questions so far? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course, there are, you know, many theories.  So, in that sense, there are kind of many stories to connect RWB type spin liquid and superconductivity. And Yonbak gave a bit specific case, but in general, people discuss that. But on the other hand, I don't know any experiment evidence which does support, you know, real liquid, you know, quantum spin liquid and superconductivity. As I told you, like this phase could be magnetically ordered state, but still, you know, I find superconductivity. Okay? Of course, you can take, you know, this, you know, in a different way. Okay? But the question, if you Google QSL, you know, superconductivity, you'll find the many theoretical papers on that. So, if you're interested, yeah. Yes. So, let me give you a second example. Okay?  And Kagome Rades is, in some sense, you know, particularly interesting because of the confusion among, you know, big, you know, theorists. Okay?  Okay? Maybe, you know, the easiest way is to do the experiment. Right?  Okay? So, this compound has been known from mineral, you know, so geophysics knows that this, you know, for long. And somehow, they created, you know, the compound, cleaner compound in the lab. Okay? And the structure of this compound is kind of interesting.  Okay?  And in this compound, Kagome layer is kind of fully occupied, you know, cup two plus, s equal one half. And the triangular layer is supposed to be occupied by non-magnetic D10 zinc plus, zinc two plus. Okay?   Okay? So, there is some chemical disorder there. But anyway, so, as a first approximation, in this compound called high-bathsme site, you have, you know, Kagome lattice of a cup of two plus.  So, here's the kind of plot of, you know, 1 over chi plus 10.  So, somehow, average scale of magnetic interaction is anti-ferromagnetic over the order of 180k. Okay? Well, you don't see anything. Okay? Down to T-co zero. No knocking, you know, anything. Okay? So, yeah, in this sense, you know, fluorescence parameter is kind of infinite, you know, in this compound. And they check, you know, like magnetic scattering in the USO and no signature. And this is going to end there now. And it's a bit complicated because, you know, a copper occupies a different chemical site. But you don't see any kind of broadening. You see kind of some broadening, but no real splitting down to low temperature.  But compared with organic, you know, we have to admit, you know, that in organic, you see kind of some broadening.  But since big, you know, crystal for high-versive site is kind of available. And, yeah, Jonson and Lee at Stanford, they did the Newton in elastic scattering measurement. Okay, so this is kind of a K-vector, one-one-zero direction. This is the energy. And this green means you see, you know, kind of finite excitation. And as you see, you know, Maglon dispersion is not, you know, well defined. But instead, you have quite a broad, you know, continuum here.  And this could be evidence of fractional excitation. Okay. That's why people believe this could be quantum spin naked. As I said, you know, theoretically, you know, there is kind of confusion, whether there is a kind of small gap in spin excitation or not. That, you know, recently, you know, though people try to see kind of some gap in NMO channel. Okay. So this is kind of night shift, you know, susceptibility as a function of temperature. This is kind of an expansion. And somehow at, you know, low field, okay, it's a bit complicated. But somehow, susceptibility seems to die out exponentially like this. And from this, you know, they claimed, you know, oh, yeah, at low field, there should be spring gap. Okay. And by applying a field, somehow this exponential decay is kind of, you know, fade out.   And the protein excitation, you know, energy, excitation temperature as a function of magnetic field.  And with applying field, somehow, gap is kind of surplus and the dissipate around 10 Tesla.  So, like 10 Tesla is roughly 10 K, right? So, if you have some sort of a secret gap and apply 10 Tesla, you know, 10 Tesla, you can surplus, you know, gap. And somehow, you know, that's kind of consistent.  That could be surplus by applying magnetic field. And if, you know, their interpretation is kind of correct, okay? G2 gap of spin liquid is kind of correct, okay? But somehow, because of this, you know, big error, but, you know, the dissipation is kind of still ongoing. You can see how, you know, we can take a look at all kind of data, right?   But on the other hand, you know, we cannot do kind of fine kind of argument based on kind of theoretical, you know, attempt. And recently, you know, you can have quantum spin liquid in the show that that's why, you know, everybody went to that direction so far. And as I said, you know, in this morning, we have a spin one-half moment on top of Hanikamura, this, okay? And there is a kind of, you know, conflict of bond between X bond, Y bond, G bond.  So, you don't have to rely on that kind of numerics. And you support to see two kind of elemental excitation, reflecting, you know, fractionalization. One is, you know, low-lide mylarna and, you know, called G2 flux, okay? The other is kind of Eiterant Mylarna, okay?   Because, you know, you need kind of spewed coupling and anisotropy, right? To realize the Ising spin one-half.  And it is in four-plus oxide, imaged. And somehow, though two-flow, like a breakthrough in quantum magnetism, and kind of new, you know, arena in correlated electron physics, you know, namely, you know, heavy transcemental oxide, married, and created the interesting playground for the exploration of steve spin naked.  So instead of spin one-half, you know, let's try to use, you know, some sort of a spin one-half, like, but the spin of the entangled object, right? So you have, you know, kind of LS coupled J object in heavy transcemental element. And that kind of hidden degree of freedom, like orbital degree of freedom.  So the point is, for one, I think as, you know, Yonbach emphasized yesterday.  And as you know, in the octahedral coordination, like peribus kite, those, you know, 5-4 degenerate the T2 orbital, split into EG and T2G. But for 5D, you know, your wave function is quite big, okay?  And as a result, you have kind of low spin state, all 5-E electron accommodated into T2G orbital.  The reason, actually, you know, Yonbach kind of explained yesterday.  So they are kind of compatible to cool on you, you know, even kind of heavy energy, okay? And therefore, they do kind of split into J effective one half state, meaning, you know, orbital moment and the spin moment aren't parallel to each other. And J effective three half state, spin moment and orbital moment are parallel to each other, okay? And if you have five, you know, those three half, you know, it's kind of carpet, so they are completely filled. And you have, you know, one electron in J equal one half, you know, state, okay? And you have kind of one electron per orbital situation, you know, that's why, you know, most state is kind of relatively stable in this kind of compound, despite, you know, cool on you is quite modest over the order of one to two electron volt.  But of course, you know, they are kind of a complex state made of orbital moment and spin moment. And this is kind of a wave function of J one half state. And then you have, you know, equal mixture of X, Y, Y, G, G, X. But the point is, you know, you have kind of ups here in X, you know, orbital, but the down spin here in Y, G, G, X, orbital, okay? So you have a mixture of up spin and down spin, okay? So therefore, those spin orientation is quite orbital dependent. And that is kind of a key to get a complicated interaction.  So it's kind of orbiting around the nucleus, okay? But, you know, in calculating the extension of process, this, you know, imaginary index, you know, plays a very important role, okay?  And when, you know, those original oxygen octahedron share edge like this, you know, they share edge, and you have two 90 degree bond. And if we consider only super exchange process, super exchange, okay, through oxygen, then you have kind of two oxygen between two J one moment, okay?  And they found, because of two oxygen here, and the imaginary index I, those, you know, super exchange parts, exchange hopping parts, interfere with each other.  So, those two parts act as interferometer, and, you know, conventional anti-ferro exchange kind of zero, that's what they found. So, therefore, they find dominant, you know, process is, you know, dominant process is kind of fully occupied, the carted below one half to one half. So, electron kind of hopping, you know, from J three half to J one half. And once, you know, you transfer one electron from site one to site two, okay, you have kind of a full coupling between three half and one half. And that's kind of another key. And because of the coupling, you have a special specific contact axis, and the coupling is quite easy, okay? So, therefore, this is a spin one half like, okay?   Only when two spins happen together to this original oxygen plane, you know, there is ferromagnetic interaction, but otherwise interaction zero. So, here actually we have a very important ingredient of a Kitech model. Icing, you know, fellow equivalent to spin half. Now, so nature is kind of great. We didn't create intentionally. It already exists. And this compound was studied, you know, from battery people as a candidate for lithium battery, okay? So, my lawyer just told, you know, George Jackley, or there is a Hancom compound made of, you know, lithium and Elysium. And this compound, Elysium-2, Elysium-3, and as I told you, in this morning, this structure can be derived from sodium chloride. So, you can make triangular lattice, you remember, by inserting Elysium. And by replacing, you know, one out of three Elysium with non-magnetic Elysium, you can create a Hancom lattice. So, this is it, right? Now, so, you can see network of octahedral like this, Hancom lattice. And as you see, J-shell edge, right? So, you have 90-degree bond, interferometer. So, this should, you know, give rise to using a ferromagnetic interaction. And if, you know, I take a look at, you know, one specific, you know, Elysium-Oxygen octahedral, okay? They are connected to three neighbors because of Hancom lattice. And there are three orthogonal edges, okay, in octahedral, okay? So, somehow, three bond as, you know, three orthogonal edge planes, okay?  This gives you Y, Elysium, ferro. This gives you G, Elysium, ferro, right?  This gives you ideal materialization of Kitech model. But of course, super exchange is not the only exchange path. It cannot be quite a big issue to moderate quantum spin liquid. But of course, but, you know, at this point, you know, my point is somehow nature is great. They don't know anything about Kitech, but somehow those compounds capture essential ingredients of Kitech model, okay? That's kind of excitement.  But as you see, you know, QD-wise plot, okay? First of all, QD-wise, you know, temperature is something like minus 100. That means anti-ferromagnetic. But I discussed the ferromagnetic is an interaction. But like QD-wise tells you, anti-ferromagnetic. Here you already see something unfavorable comes into this problem. Next, you know, if you do see susceptibility, you can see clear King here and there. So that means there is, you know, anti-ferromagnetic ordering.  And this compound shows spiral magnetic order. We kind of created the three-dimensional analog of this compound. Okay? So what we, yeah, so this compound we accidentally found and the name to, you know, hyper-hanicam. Okay? So this is kind of a two-dimensional hand camera. Okay?  And you rotate this, you know, zigzag chain up and connect to next layer. Okay? But still all, you know, iridium cycle kind of equivalent. And that's 320-degree bond. So this is nothing but, you know, three-dimensional analog of hand camera. And many theorists including Yonbak Kim, you know, checked in the grand state of, you know, hyper-hanicam lattice. And they showed, you know, kind of same, you know, quantum spin liquid with myelanoferemium could be grand state. But nevertheless, those compounds, unfortunately, we find, you know, long-range kind of order of state. And the Newtonian chloride showed up new generation of, you know, hand camera compound.  They do show long-range ordering at 13 Kelvin.  And they saw kind of some signature of continuum excitation in this compound.  And also, they applied magnetic field parallel to hand camera layer and found those zigzag anti-ferromagnetic order disappeared. And somehow, system damage, you know, paramagnetic down to low temperature. And this could be, you know, spin-liquid-like phase.  So, you know, we don't see, you know, real quantum spin-liquid state. But somehow, you know, we have shared, you know, our system is very close to quitaifium quantum spin-liquid. I think the timing is kind of up. So, and yeah. So, that's kind of last year, two messages I want to deliver you. It's a most recent progress.   And just, just, it's kind of black magic. You know, somehow, by replacing a lithium with hydrogen, somehow the signature of long-range order is gone. Okay. And NML, you know, you see the state of nothing down to 1K. So, this is the same Hancom compound, but doesn't show any sort of long-range ordering down to below 1K. So, somehow on Hancom lattice, we found the quantum spin-liquid state. But somehow, we checked, you know, low-lying citation and, you know, below 10K, somehow, specifically dominated by lattice. And we don't see any kind of magnetic contribution. But as I said, you know, we are supposed to see, you know, ordering of G2 flux at low temperature around 1K if it is a pure type. Right. So, in the sense that we found the, you know, quantum spin-liquid, but somehow it doesn't follow, you know, kind of prediction for pure type system. And somehow additional ingredient seems to be playing some role. And at the moment, we don't know what kind of quantum spin-liquid it is.   And the only thing I'm kind of worrying about is here, actually, you know, if you take a look at the magnetic data, because you apply field as large as 910 Tesla. Okay.  In that sense, you know, a certain fraction of entropy kind of lost.  Okay. Half, you know, quantization state. And that is kind of predicted for Mylana-Kaila edge state. And that's kind of a hot topic. So my conclusion for this architect part is somehow, yeah, reality comes in. And in many components, I observed long-range ordering. But some new progress, you know, came up very recently. And we have some sort of a quantum spin liquid. We don't know what it is, but on hand cameras. And we see some signature of topological Kaila edge state in kind of resin chloride. In the sense, we are kind of about there. Okay. So long story, in short, I started, you know, talking about many exotic phases of correlated electrons. And I emphasize the, you know, kind of phase combination between them. And the quantum spin liquid state is my favorite. Okay. And I believe a fascinating state of elective matter, you know, it's fit to my mind of, you know, the state of nothingness. And if you could feel kind of rapid, you know, progress in materialization, I'm kind of more than happy about it. And as you see, this field, kind of an intimate collaboration between theory and the experiment quite important. Okay. So, you know, experiments have to handle with kind of disorder and so on. And we have to handle with kind of chemistry.  And they have to rely on kind of finite size numerics. And somehow we have to compensate each other intimately. And in the sense that this is kind of an interesting field where, you know, theory and the experiment can collaborate very seriously, intimately. Okay. So if you, you can kind of join us, I would be more than happy about it. So thank you very much for your attention.


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Well, it's official. Come July, Minnesotans can start buying liquor on Sundays. Governor Mark Dayton signed a bill on Tuesday repealing the decades old ban. Minnesota liquor stores can open their doors on Sundays between 11 a.m. and 6 p.m. beginning in July. His signature is the final chapter in years of efforts to repeal the Prohibition Era law that previously fell far short. Advocating for the repeal and influx of new, more supportive legislators combined with more than 40 returning lawmakers who reversed their previous opposition to lift the ban. Dayton says Minnesota residents have made it clear they want the option to buy booze on Sundays. If you've enjoyed this segment of Lakeland News, please consider making a tax-deductible contribution to Lakeland Public Television.


okay here here we are welcome everyone greetings and welcome to mega life 21 live and I am here not for any serious political reasons or any serious agenda I am here to do a very light show and it's not about selling light bulbs either it's a light topic show which is about music and I am here with my old friend from San Francisco California a flamenco guitarist as well as macro biotic consultant Mr. Dan E. Mount a long time no see how are you doing sir I'm doing well James not bad at all and we are going to just play it's like a reality show you know I'm gonna play my African jamby drum to his guitar okay whenever you're ready just play away and I'll play play something I'll just play something kind of a synchronized four four time what does that mean yeah instrumentals this drum is considering it's just mahogany wood and goat skin no it's a jamby yeah like in other words here's the bass and it almost sounds material you know can you see me let me just take a peek over at the screen oh I see you're you drifted over more well yeah there you go yeah you're there you're there you got like a Frank's apple look about you with the hair and the mustache and the goatee yeah what you know I never knew what a soul patch was until I saw it online it's that clump of hair under your lip soul patch yeah you know like this you know like Zappa didn't have to go tea sometimes I let it grow with it when I'm lazy I let it grow you look good with a goatee man I could do it I could do it I just have I have salt and pepper whiskers and you know I'm just trying to minimize my my age so you see you dye your hair no no now it's now I just let it go salt and pepper because I was told you know some females actually like the older man look I don't know what they see in it but they like I guess mr. Dos Ecke's doesn't care about his gray hair either stay there mr. Dos Ecke's the Spanish guy in the commercial all that guy yeah stay thirsty stay thirsty my friends so that that's a collector's item you're handling right there this one this one's had a lot of damage done to it so it's not really what's a lot of money and somebody somebody took the French polish off it and lacquered it and it's been broken it's got big places on the side where it fell off the shelf and broke and it's got to get some more repair to get by but you know the most I can probably get this guitar if I sold it is the way it is right oh based on based on it's it's vintage only that not on its condition because its condition is not very good yeah what I was a guy I was just playing for fun James I don't really play I play every once in a while play some little yeah or something but I don't really play professionally for you know for like I have gigs lined up or anything now I'm just you know I'm just a blue collar guy yeah but you don't have you you don't have an agent to promote you to book you I don't have enough I mean I can go out and play open mics and stuff but I don't have enough material to really play professional I'm not a professional musician that way I don't have a lot of material to go out and play you know yeah don't tell the public that you know we're going but I just huh I just I just thought we were having fun school around now we're not fooling around we're we're we're worldwide right now we're on the air brother livestream I'm just more of a guy who plays for fun practice together we can't just we just can't get cold and start playing you know like you know I mean yeah but that takes that takes too much that takes too much time let's let's let's just have fun and see where where it leads us I'm trying to play for Flamenco dancers or anything I'll make believe there's a flamenco dancer in front of you no dances in front of you know I'm humble too but I love this font like in the stratosphere and the Andromeda galaxy is watching us don't I mean I'm humble but don't be that humble on the air on YouTube right now you sound great now yeah but it just came up on the screen I said this connection was too slow how come I hear you perfectly don't don't pay attention to what the websites tell you sometimes they're full of shit they got all those outsourced IT people in third world countries it's like a reality show anyway I play whatever you want man woman by Santana by me you know black magic woman some things that people don't do you know I like how like old music a lot you ever listen to what old jazz and blues from like the 19 like like jazz Dixieland type jazz from the 1920s your house and all kinds of stuff sometimes we can do a more serious thing but you need to want you know the best thing to do James if you get some get some like jiffy kings or some music like that you know I mean you and get it in practice and play along with it practice to some stuff so you get the rhythm you know yeah yeah yeah yeah place with the guitar to picture on the screen the picture I see of the screen there's a picture of you just on the screen oh that that am I wearing some kind of a camouflage shirt that's right oh that was taken not long ago that was taken a few weeks ago few weeks ago I say go on YouTube and listen to some old Lonnie Johnson Ronnie Johnson Lonnie Johnson Lonnie L.O.N.N.I.E. not Robert Johnson Lonnie Johnson okay everybody knows the Robert Johnson was right so that basically Robert Johnson copied from Lonnie Johnson and Lonnie Johnson lived you know he lived the 70s something I think that he was the guy who started playing chords and picking out the melody he's the first guy to ever do that on the guitar all his eyes BB came all those guys basically copied him he was the guy he was the originator all that but he's not he's not so well known like BB and all these other guys are you know they didn't give any credit listen folks you just heard it the debut of Chinese guitar he just blues the Chinese guitar blues at home from Danny mouth and sperm it I'm sorry spurred a moment he just wrote it come on show and make up a song right on the spot how's that that is incredible talent now you know something that another good thing about the Chinese guitar is that because it's so cheap you were you're you could just go hog wild on it and not worry about you know wearing out or damaging an expensive instrument an American may expect and I mean what actually be let me interrupt you there for a second actually pardon me but they're very good guitars and you can't that kind of guitar in America would cost you well over two thousand dollars wow now Chinese the Chinese are duplicating martins you know they take martins and they copy them and they sell them for less than half a price wow incredible now the Chinese make violence to yeah they make everything now oh my god so they make violins they make cellos and they're getting very good at what about brass instruments they're trumpets are behind us let me tell you they make trumpets to money that the Chinese first remember first it was the Japanese and everybody said then you know this company talk of meaning Japanese company meeting no I don't know about talk of meaning talk of meaning is made beautiful guitar you know and then and then you know then there was of course there was always yamaha making pianos right some of these pianos in the world they say and you know good solid pianos that are really well made you know I should hope the solid people man they learned very fast how to do things don't you know you know what they were made that they were minting money we were still running around in caves so let me tell you something the buffet in my town is is run by Chinese and and and they could they have Italian food in this buffet Dan that's just like my grandmother made so I there's the famous let me tell you that when you reiterate on that one because there's a famous Italian restaurant San Francisco listen it's owned by it's owned by an Italian family it's been in their family for years it's called tamasos yeah and the cooks that they've had there they had there for many years and their Chinese cooks you know why because they work they were thinking that food and food you'd swear it was cooked by some old you know Italian mama because they work cheap that's why that all the pizzerias here have immigrants from you know what Central America whatever these people work cheap I mean I'm sure you could teach anybody with desire that has a desire to do just about anything you could teach anyone it doesn't it doesn't have to be you know except I want I do want Asians to make my sushi I don't want Italians making my sushi you want to hear more of that Chinese takeout I'm sorry Chinese guitar blues I tell you I really dig that song this is your this is the debut and it tells the story that's very true not not just about musical instruments and guitars it has to do with manufacturing in general you know it has a deep meaning to it my sister died okay no I haven't seen a scene or spoke to you in many moons many moons ago last May oh so we haven't talked out long last May wow the last show we did the music show but good as this one we did a music oriented show but it wasn't as good as this one things got higher something like that came up with that song on the top of your head what do you call the list of phone people on these people I get a lot of people contacting me that I are and sometimes I get weirdos and spammers and scammers and you know yeah they're from Ghana those computer companies that try to call you they try to they want to try to fix your computer there's nothing wrong with it that's bullshit what I really want to do this you're breaking up now it's a damn San Francisco Internet connection well I have for those of you that have out there that have a windows operating system I would use C cleaner it's free and and it's just it does the same thing as all these other programs there's trying to sell you know they advertise if your computer's running slow it may be this he may be that get C cleaner what they call C cleaner it's free I use all free software I just I take the ones that are the best and the most recommended I don't pay for any of it I mean I've heard of the sound as good as it has to be I noticed that when the atmosphere is drier this drum plays much better than when it's humid well that's that's one thing about that's one thing about your cars you have to be really careful of going from where there's a little bit of some some humidity to a really dry place yeah because the tires can actually just crack wood guitars I'm not talking about of course instruction is just so much more it's really much harder to get a really good sound out of the strings of a classical guitar because they're nylon you know then it is a steel string steel strings right but on there being steel you know it's easier to build a guitar that sounds good with steel strings but it's much harder to build a really beautiful classical guitar that sounds good you know anyway there's my well you got a guest coming over you have a guest coming over what do you have a guest oh okay okay okay okay next time we'll jam off the air we'll play okay bye bye thank you okay it was been great thank you bye bye


تفوته آدك الأيام فتا اللو يقول فتا عهدك و لا يقول فتا هل هنا أهي هنا هل تقار here أنت ايها الناس معي اللو يقول فتا أخبرك ما تعالى هل نعمنا من شيئا نعم اللو اخبرت من شيئا هذا يقارش المحارب نحن فتاحدة لذا كل شيء ستأهد في ساته يأتي في هذا الوصول لأنه يبدأ من الوصول لأنه يبدأ من الوصول حسنا، نحن نبحث عن هذا نحن الآن مستعدة على ما؟ نحن الآن مستعدة على هذا الوصول لأنه يبدأ من هنا لذا أريد أن أخبركم بالنسبة إن شاء الله تعالى سأخبركم عندما ترى وَلَا تَقُولَنَّ لِشَيْئِنْ إِنْ نِفَاعِنُ ذَا لِكَ غَدَنْ so where is the.. where is that indefinite in that sentence in that sa'aya sorry it's the word shay'in وَلَا تَقُولَنَّ لِشَيْئِنْ do not say to anything look how general this is not some, not here, not there anything small, big, large doesn't matter anything whatsoever don't say I'm going to do this thing tomorrow unless you say insha'Allah so it's general right where did we get that from because we follow the qa'idah the qa'idah is in place وَلَا تَقُولَنَّ.. don't say لِشَيْئِنْ how do you know it's anakara the tanween again the tanween allows you that it's anakara what si'aq is it in what context is it in نهي where is the nahi if I ask you you say la the la is the nahi here also the sheikh left out another one which he didn't mention رحمه الله تعالى which is another si'aq he didn't mention two additionals he didn't mention you have to add them si'aq and istifhab and inkari when Allah asks a rhetorical question and when he's asking it he's trying الله تعالى تعالى is rejecting what they've just said like what Allah says ربو السماوات والأرض ربو السماوات what si'aq is it in if an yana is na'am it's a questioning but the questioning is like rejecting the action that they're doing and there's anakara there it definitely is in that context which is the istifhab the questioning الله says ربو السماوات والأرض وما بينهما فعبوده وصطب للعبادة هل هل is the question right هل is the question right it's an istifhab good we know it هل تعلب له سبيان سبيان is what it's anakara so the na'kira here is in what which si'aq it's an istifna'am so you say نا'kira في si'aq الاستفام الإنكاري وما you can say فتا عمو it's a generalization the second one that sheikh dina mention here is what if it comes in a context of conditioning if it comes in a context of what conditioning and there's an indefinite in the sentence as الله تبارك ويتعالى he said وإن أحادون in here is this chart we took it in the jumea it's a condition anyone whoever it's a condition وإن أحادون anyone so we have what in which is what شرطية good and we have أحادون which is what which is na'kira which si'aq is in شرط what does it show فتا عمو anything you listen to you know that you're falling under it you can't take yourself out of it وإن أحادون anyone وإن أحادون sorry it doesn't matter anyone of the disbelievers وإن أحادون من المشركين it doesn't matter which كان المشركيز it can be a huddu Buddhist it can be a qadiani it can be all of them it doesn't matter when those kufar come to you what do you do وإن أحادون من المشركين استجارك فأجيره give him what show to give a jar حتى يسمعك الله I tell you he has this verses of Allah establish a proof on him educate him teach him when he done it what did they used to do if they caught the disbeliever they won't kill him they will make him hear the Qur'an they will educate him the religion by implementing this ayah that's that was the second type of عموم that the sheikh mentioned the sheikh now moves on to the next line of poetry the third type of words that show generalization كذا كمن وماء تفيدان مع كل عموم يا أخي فاسمع ما أن من ما أن من are what they fall under what do they fall under الأسماء المبهمة they are from I'm being use words anyone can take it on board don't get it wrong it has to be the word man which is بفتح الميمي وإسكاني النون I pay attention it has to be man what we trying to avoid it being بتسكين الميمي سين من we don't want that sorry بكسرة الميمي the meme being made بكسرة الميمي وتسكين النون we don't want that بفتح الميمي والسكون النوني if it becomes then it becomes حرف من حروفي الجر if it's من it's a حرف من حروفي الجر من are from the word that show generalization الله أكبر and we spoke about that in one of our episodes where we spoke about ruling by other and when Allah sent down we said ومن لم يحكم بما انزل الله من is عموم من أدوات عموم الله mentioned that in many places on the Quran he says it doesn't matter whether it's condition or not it doesn't matter it doesn't matter if it's شرطية or غير شرطية the word man shows عموم as Allah who does مثقال ذره a mustard seed of good خيرا يرى it doesn't matter who you are no exception no such thing everyone for that الله أكبر ومن يتقله يجعل له مخرجا ويرزقوا من حيث لا احتسب ومن anybody يتقله who comes with God consciousness what will happen for him يجعل له مخرجا الله will give you an opening you see الله تعالى فمن يتدى بعد ذلك فولائك لهم عذاب فولائك لهم عذاب آيات فمن they are a lot أصول الله تعالى فمن يتدى عليكم فعتدوا عليه بمثل معتد عليكم anyone who transgresses on you who oppresses you who does it to you guys when he deals with you in the wrong way then الله تعالى he says and he exceeds his limit with you الله says you can deal with him in accordance to how he dealt with you بمثل معتد عليكم واتقوا الله then says fear me be conscious of me don't think because now you got him no fear Allah if he does something to you do up to what he's done to you آه وان ذلك شيخ الاسام tell me one of the things that benefited from his books رحمه الله in his book الجواب الصحيح he talks about the injeel and he talks about the Torah and he talks about the Qur'an the way Islam is always the middle it always was it always will be as Allah says in the Qur'an وكذلك جعلناكم ايش أمة الوسطة الله made us what the religion is in the middle if you look at the Torah you find that it's the most strict book you can see if you look at what the injeel you find it's what so like slap she turned the cheek over like what you look at the Qur'an what you look at the Qur'an you find فمن اتدع عليكم فعتدوا عليه بمثلي بعتدع عليكم exactly according to how we did it not too much and not too little fair so it's in the middle it is what it is in the middle هكذا our religion is like that we don't transgress too much and we're not apologetic we're not what apologetic كذلك من وماتوا في داني معن كل العمومية اخي فسمع the sheikh said my brother understand what I'm trying to tell you when we were studying the wadma in قطر الندى وبل الصدى we took لبنهشام that the wadma can become an ism or what اكلمية اسم or حرف when it's an ism it shows generalization remember in قطر الندى وبل الصدى we don't study the معاني of wads we don't study the meanings that are in wads that dealt with by صولي they deal with that now it only establishes the ism if it is a harf what's the evidence for it if it's an ism what's the evidence for it and who went against this idea and then you bring the نحاة who went against it or not so here we need to you see how it's connected to learn remember that we studied قطر الندى and then نعم شيخ رحم الله تعالى هي the matter he's mentioning we have to remember that the matter comes as اسمية وما تفعلوا من خير يعلمه الله ما is اسمية وما and if the view that we retire what does it show here it is that اسمية it shows generalization whether it's شرطية or whether it's not a شرطية if it's an ism it doesn't matter good what about if it's a حرف if it's a حرف it shows generalization and when we said it's a حرف what does it become نافية remember when it نافية that's we're trying to take on all the views right now but when we started قطر الندى وابلل الصداة we done a ترجيح on which of the views correct whether it's a حرف or an اسم we strengthen it there نعم good so that is the point ومثلوه الفردو ترجت ما يضافه the sheikh said before the line before he said كل العمومي أخي فاسمع the sheikh said من and man both through generalization يا my brother my brother understand this and the sheikh said understand this because there is a big need for you to understand it a person who hasn't studied دلالات الألفاض who don't know this love هل يدل على العمومي أو لا does it show generalization or not he doesn't know he wants to go to the Quran and he wants to do تفسير of it he wants to say it's permissible it's not permissible how does that work so you have to understand the sheikh is saying to you فهم شخصين كل العمومي يا أخي فاسمع listen here he's saying ومثلوه الفردو يضافه if a singular word brothers the sheikh is talking here about another type of generalization which is what if a singular word is what it is ascribed to something the word مفرد you have to remember two meanings are meant by it مفرد which is ما يقابل الجملة a muffret that goes against the جملة remember when we took the خبر and the مبتد when we take the مبتد and the خبر we said that the خبر can be what a muffret it can be a جملة and it can be a شبه جملة we did take that we took we spoke about that in our شرح in a جرومية مفرد here is a مفرد what do we mean by it we meant it's مفرد meaning it goes against a sentence then مفرد it means sometimes what it means مفرد sometimes means what opposite to a sentence anything that's not a word is مفرد even if it's plural it doesn't matter it's called مفرد it's just one word if it's a sentence it's called جملة so that's one meaning so it's opposite to what جملة or شبه جملة both of them goes the second thing it goes against what the second meaning is what ما يقابل المثنة والجمع that which goes against the dual and a plural so the مفرد can be opposite to both of them and this is important that you study that one word can have those meanings so the شرح he mentioned that المفرد إذ يضافوا so before I mentioned I have to tell you that the نكرا the اسم which is indefinite which is ascribed the indefinite noun that is ascribed is three types to a definite has to be ascribed to a what إلا معرفة that's the condition here so it's an indefinite it's an indefinite noun okay and it's been ascribed to something which is definite it happens in three ways the first one is what الجمع plural it's plural the noun is what the نكرا here is what it's plural أقلام زيد the pens of what زيد does that show generalization فهذا يفيد العموم it shows generalization where's the evidence for that الله تباركة عليه السلام on the Qur'an يُصيكم الله في أولادكم أولادكم here is it a jama'a أولاد is a jama'a it's جمع تكسير is it نعم is جمع تكسير good is it مضاف هأولادكم it's been ascribed to you guys are you guys with me good it's ascribed to you good very good and الله is also a statement حرمة عليكم أمهاتكم أمهات is here right now what جمع what type of jama'a is that جمع أنت السلام is it ascribed نعم it's ascribed good that's the first type the second type is and we took that before when we were talking about the what what jins means good for example if a person ascribes something to a jins for example when you say the water of the ocean of the sea this one it shows generalization as well it shows what generalization the third one is المفرد الذي ليس بمثنة ولا جمع إذا أضيف إلى معرفة هل يفيد العموم the third type which is what the scholars question a singular that doesn't have a dual there are some singulars they don't have a dual you can't find a dual for it nor can you find a plural for it this one only comes as a singular if it ascribed to something that is known does it show generalization such as قلم زيد والسيارة عمر قلم زيد the pen of zid والسيارة عمر and what and the سيارة of what of عمر the scholars they disputed one another in this messa'ala two views they took the first view is what أن المفرد المضاف إلى معرفة يفيد العموم whether it has a muthanna or a jam'a it doesn't matter this is the call of the the Malikia the Malikia and they took the speech of Allah وإن تعدوا نعمة الله the word نعمة doesn't have a jam'a it's jam'a it doesn't come from the same word what does it come from it comes from ألا I want no نعم I call it some وإن تعدوا what نعمة الله لا تحصوها the word نعمة it's been ascribed to Allah did it show generalization yes you guys وإن تعدوا if you try to count نعمة الله الله's blessings you can't say Allah's blessing even in the word نعمة is one you have to make a generalization and you can't count Allah's blessings out all good that is what the second view is the call of the جمهور the call of the جمهور which is المفرد المضاف إلى معرفة لا يفيد العموم and that seems to be the strongest of the two نعم and also the other things that show generalization that the sheikh didn't mention in his book that he didn't touch on the word كل the word كل it shows generalization the word كل is from rather the word كل is is called what أعم العمومات أم أبلغ العمومات it's the strongest and also مفهوم المخالفة the reverse understanding إذا وقع سؤال العموم if it's question if the reverse understanding is a general question that it shows generalization the usage of the word جميع also حدف الفعلي hiding a verb حدف المتعليقي sorry taking and hiding something which is attached في الفعلي المنهيو in an action that is prohibited it shows generalization تركو الاستفصال عند تعدد الأحوال leaving off finding the detailed information regarding something when the situations of all different shows generalization all of those they show generalization the sheikh didn't mention that but he just wants the book is meant to be a summary a very small abridged book and any other things we need whether to learn it or elsewhere ولاية تيم الحكم حتى تجتمع كل الشروط والموانع ترتفع this is a qaida which is very important which is what ولاية تيم الحكم a ruling will not be established it's not complete حتى تجتمع كل الشروط unless all the conditions are present والموانع and the obstacles that are there are uplifted and this is very important so many people don't understand this you can't place a ruling on something unless the conditions are present and any obstacles that are there are uplifted and we spoke about this issue when we were speaking about تكفير to place a person a kafir and say you're a kafir you need what you need and we do this show that the conditions are present وانتفاء الموانع and the things that are that can stop him from becoming a kafir are uplifted from him such as جهل such as تأويل السائق such as اكراح such as خطأ these are موانع these are مانع they prevent him from becoming a kafir he might have done an action which is كفر the condition might be there but then what's missing the man is not lifted from him the man is what it's not lifted from him and this you use it for every single matter about that you can use it for it for example تهارة تهارة is a شرط للصلاة it's a condition for the what the صلاة so can a person pray a salat without تهارة he can't pray and very good very good what is also a condition of the prayer the person is he's reached that age of he can distinguish between things but we study that when we talk about شرط وجوب not شرط الصحة if he prays it will still be accepted from him شرط العقل the sanity شرط عقل sanity is شرط وجوب and شرط الصحة both together what about the prohibitions that can be in a woman's way so a woman okay what is a condition of the صلاة are you with me there's a person to be pure right so the person what about if they're in a state of جلابة to get rid of the جلابة right what about if the person doesn't have وضو just passed wind went to the toilet they do what وضو right very good what about if a woman does that وضو and she cleans herself is the صلاة accepted you're going to say that حيض is also a condition has to be absent it's a manع if حيض comes and she was clean and she had وضو and menstruation comes it's a manع it prevents her from it it's a manع now what prevents her from it very good now I want you to remember this إن شاء الله تعالى I'll take this down the موانع things that prevent something are types they come into different types there is some which are known as موانع من الابتدائي والدوام they are موانع and they are consistent and forever to be such as breastfed breastfeeding is a continuous manع and you will forever understand you can never marry that sister never in never way could you ever marry her good the second one is a manع that prevents you from the beginning but not to what seriously it doesn't but from the beginning they get go it prevents you from it and then after it drops and you can do what you're doing like intimacy with your wife in the state of إحرام from this point onwards you can't but then later when you finish you leave your state of إحرام can you this manع is very and there's a last one which is موانع تمنع الدوام دون الابتدائ موانع that prevents from you consistency it won't allow it to be consistent but it will it will do at the beginning such as طلاق الرجعي take it back to your wife again she's what طلاق الرجعي you take your wife take her back what does that prevent you from it prevents you from marrying her it what it prevents you sorry it prevents you from the marriage anything that you were allowed to do through marriage it's now prevented from you sorry it prevents the consistency of this issue taking place you divorce your wife you can still take her back this state it won't it won't always remain it won't be like that but does it happen from the beginning yeah from the beginning it will but it won't allow it to be consistent it won't be whenever you want you can come back to her and marry her نعم so this قاعدة الشيخ is saying أنه لا يتم الحكم تشبيع كل الشروط وتنطفي كل الموارع this قاعدة which is is a قاعدة المسلمة is a قاعدة which is accepted and there are those points which I mentioned regarding it the sheikh he then says after that ومن أتاب ما عليه من عمل قد استحق ما له على العمل the sheikh in this قاعدة he's trying to explain to us what that anyone who does an action through that action a reward is brought out of it it's a righteous action it's a good action the person will gain the reward for it he came with the conditions and you see the obstacles are absent which he just mentioned so the person came with the action the way it is with the conditions are all there the موانع are absent this person what does he gain قد استحق ما له على العمل he will get what the action the reward that was mentioned with that action he deserves it now and there are so many evidences that Allah says لايا إيظين آمن أوفو بالعقود قولوا تعالى وأوفوا بالعادي إن العادي كان مسئولة من فا با عادي الله وتقى فإن الله يحب المتقين هالجزاء الإحسان إلا الإحسان إن الله لا يضع عجر المحسينين فمستمتعت به منهن فأاتوهن أدورهن فإن أرضعنا لكم فأاتوهن أدورهن وأوفوا با عادي الله دعاهتم everything every action the conditions are met يجب أن تأخذ ما يفعله يجب أن تفعل بيزنز with the person يجب أن تقوم with the conditions they are all there The obstacles and the prevention are absent الحمد لله This you are now entitled to enjoy whatever you bought نعم So this is important It's very important With those ayat It proves that The thing that the person he deserves What is this qaeda Somebody sold something And he Somebody bought something Sorry And he gave the money to the person He bought it from him This is your money Take your money from me The person takes some money from him This person is entitled to whatever he bought This is حق A woman She accepts the marriage of a brother She accepts it She says you know what Okay All the conditions are met All the مواني are absent What does this woman get the right for As soon as she gets married to him استحقت المهب She's got the right for her diary now Because she's what وَمَنْ أَتَابِمَا عَلَيْهِ عَمَلْ She came with action With the conditions all present The مواني are missing She's She deserves what نعم


Great. Thank you. Good morning. So we thought we would just sort of summarize what we thought worked some of the key points and if we got them wrong, y'all could correct us and if we missed some things, you could also add those. So that would be great. So kind of walking through these are very word-heavy slides, my apologies. Some of what we heard from the laboratory sessions, obviously sharing genomic data, very critical. Many labs are willing, but the fact that this requires resources is often not identified. So Dan, are you having trouble hearing me or? They just turned it off. Sorry. You know, I think I'm close enough to the microphone, but who knows. And then this issue of not putting things into clinical care until they're well-established is a real challenge when, as Heidi pointed out, some of these things, the vast majority in fact, are found only in one family.  Delivering information from available sequences takes resources. So going back and querying it, updating it needs resources. Categories were changed as we heard 300 times, I think, at one point, and about 4 percent of doctor reports change per year, which is pretty astonishing. We also heard a little bit of concern about how one can get CLIA-certified labs to do sequencing, and that requires resources as well. And we also heard that much of the recent growth in genomic testing is in infectious diseases and also to some degree in cancer. Any disputes here? You all just stop me if you want to dispute a point. How's that? Pardon me? Okay. So this was in genomic testing, is my understanding? Right. So when you say and genetics in genomic testing? The highest growth rate is in cancer and genetics, although infectious disease is the largest in volume currently. Okay. And projected in- Okay. No, I know it's the last bullet, but I thought this was within genetic testing or genomic testing. The two things that were increasing were infectious diseases and cancer, but I guess maybe you're suggesting Mendelian diseases as well? Is that right, Debra? What do you mean by the genetic and genetic? Because we already have germline. So if you talk about all molecular testing, which includes the high throughput sequencing. Infectious disease is the largest volume of molecular, including next gen sequencing, but the highest growth. So it's growing at about 11% per year, whereas cancer and germline, I call that genetics. Okay.  If you want to parallel them, I'm not quite sure how to do that, but genetics and or germline and cancer are growing at about 18% per year. Okay. I think if I remember my slide correctly. Yeah. And we'll check your slides and make sure that we've got it right, but thanks for that correction. So I'm having trouble. Germline and cancer is 18%. So, and we'll pretty these up here. So, but thank you much. 18%. Okay. Great. Yes. Please. Clea certified labs are doing sequencing. We're doing a lot of sequencing. So. Okay. So. Pardon me. Illumina. Illumina would be one of them. So isn't the challenge really then hospital, Clea certified labs? Is that what we're, Deborah, I think this was your point. So it's really the next gen sequencing technology. We're using CE for doing a lot of sequencing and there are selected labs that have moved into using next gen sequencing technology. But I think the vast majority of academic laboratories. I mean, I put a question out on the association from like a pathology listserv recently saying, what do you think of this instrument versus this instrument for a clinical laboratory? And I got more answers back saying when you find out, let me know rather than an answer. So. Wow. All kinds of labs are trying to figure out the technology to go with and how to adopt this, how to justify it. The business plan for a hospital laboratory is very, very difficult. So would you agree then with this formulation of it, how to get hospital and academic or maybe just hospital, Clea certified labs to move to next generation sequencing? It's more how to get them to pay for next gen sequencing instrumentation so that it can be incorporated into these labs. That's a subtle difference. But we want to. I mean, clearly it's very cool. It's new. And it's, we think more cost effective, but we don't have the opportunity to test that out necessarily. So. Okay. And I might add enable as opposed to get. I don't necessarily think we want to get them all doing it, but enable the ones who are capable of doing it. You know, in talking with Illumina in distribution of their myceaks, which are meant to really target the hospitals, smaller labs, pathology labs. One of the biggest struggles is the whole confirmatory process that's not built into a myceak. You know, and they're hoping their instrument is sample to report end to end. But that confirmatory process is not yet supported in the clinical labs. You're like, well, how do I do that part of it? So I think it's how do we enable these labs to be able to support the process? But most labs who would be doing next gen would likely already be doing CE, capillary electrophoresis, Sanger sequencing, so, or have real time PCR, I mean, and have technologies to be able to do that confirmatory process. So maybe. I think most labs do. Yeah. This is a great discussion and it's very helpful, I think, to have it. I do have 50 slides. No, I only have 11. And this is slide number one. So if we can live with this, at least for the moment, it seems like that. Okay. Great. Then whole genome is potentially a concern. It may imply that it's complete or infallible. And that we just need to be aware of that. There aren't any FDA or CLIA standards yet for next gen sequencing. No arguments with that, I don't think. Do we need a genomic medicine specialty? An interesting thought and one that we might want to pursue. What's regulated under CLIA versus what is sort of the art of medicine in interpreting the sequences, an important point raised. Try to capture the marked variability and interpretation to understand it. So one of the, I think, issues that was raised was that, gee, when you send out these variant files, actually the BAM files, that people interpret the variants very, very differently. And if you can capture that, I think this was a bioinformatics point, you can actually learn to model it and kind of learn something from that. And then we need bioinformaticians incorporated into pathology groups and other groups doing this kind of work. Any corrections? Great. Okay. I made a slide for you in terms of the Frukey criteria, which I thought was a nice way of going about it, but you may want to look carefully at this one. And actually, I think what we heard, we were looking for those who do this kind of work as well as those who pay for it to tell us, you know, what kind of evidence do you need or how do you make your decisions? And most of them came down to points very much like this. So you need well-controlled, adequately powered studies demonstrating analytical validity and clinical utility. And that was sort of a, you know, a sine qua non and also pretty undebatable. It would be helpful to have clearly actionable results. And I think in most cases, all of the people who spoke on this felt this way, either that you could prevent drug toxicity, you could identify a treatment path, diagnose rare heritable disorders, and possibly carrier testing. So those would all be examples of actionable variants, although there might be other things as well. There should be some kind of a path to a reasonable level of reimbursement. There should be freedom to operate in terms of IP and patents and other things. And an interesting note, which is maybe something that we want to think about is that adoption is slower if a test replaces some procedure that physicians can bill for, which was a, you know, sobering comment. You want to take that out? Oh, really? I think it's an excellent, you know, it's on tape. Okay, so we will do that. No? That's fine. Okay. Great. All right. And then the sequencing working group, was it was its usual energetic self? Yes. Oh, yes. Sorry. That last slide, the clinical utility part. I mean, there's a nuance missing here. And we can't show clinical utility for three billion bases. Right. So I'm not sure what the solution here is, but there's some element of, yeah, we want, all this has to be done, the proving, you know, the evidence that's required. But then again, there's also this element of, this is the whole genome. And so how do we handle that? Good point. And I think maybe we want to qualify this first point, you know, sort of like where possible or where feasible or that, because I think your point, and you should make it yourself, was that when you have this, it's great, but a lot of times you don't. Isn't that right? Yeah, I think the problem is getting, you know, the payers aren't here maybe today, but that's what they're looking for in terms of reimbursement. And so if you don't have that, I don't know what the solution is for reimbursement. Okay. Great. So we'll just call it what payers looking for. Okay. If I could type it would help. Okay. And again, you know, these are, it's not like these are instantly going to end up in a, you know, a paper somewhere. It's just, we're trying to capture a lot of the discussion today. Okay. They'll just end up on the internet. I'll be looking for a job. Yeah, that's right. We could, well, maybe I should be fair then and we'll just take that out. So I wanted to make sure that you were paying attention. Great. It worked. Yes. All right, good. Because we do want you to come back and still be employed. Okay. So that was the, all right, sequencing working group. There was talk or hopefully plans of perhaps producing a white paper, laying out research and policy agenda for implementing sequencing in clinical care. Recognizing that this already been done, but can one do it in a more perhaps systematic or provide kind of a roadmap for doing that. Focus with a lot of work and a lot of potential tasks to be done, it may be appropriate to focus on the areas that aren't being done currently or that are gaps so that there's not overlap or duplication. And then the highest priorities we may hear from the sequencing group after they've had their working group meeting. One high one sounded like was how to assign clinical relevance to variants, especially with this problem that Brad pointed out as did Heidi, that you only see a couple of them and how in the world do you get enough to know what it means. Howard seemed to feel that the wet lab was moving so fast that this was not a gap area and not an area that you needed to do much in. And one point that was made, I think by the lab group, was considering genomic critical values. So what are the critical, maybe that was Deborah's point, what are the things that you absolutely have to report just like you have to report a potassium of 2.0 or whatever. Determining what the legal requirements are for data return which varies by state, which is an interesting thing and might be something worth trying to compile in some place at some point. And there was no substitute for knowing what the patient and the clinician really want to know of making decisions on what to report. Yes. If I could make a comment and it might be a minor semantic comment and if so I'll stop after saying it once. This term return of results or data return for me is a research term. In clinical laboratories you talk about what do you report to the physician and all of the professional societies and regulatory bodies give guidance on the structure of clinical reporting, the content of clinical reporting, what's primary and what's secondary in a clinical report. CDC has taken the lead in developing some recommendations around molecular, genetic, clinical reporting guidelines. Return of results for me at least implies a research study deciding whether or not to return information and which information to return. So in all areas of developing guidelines or what legal requirements are I think they're two separate issues and we should try to keep them clear. Does everyone agree with that? Yes. Yes. Okay. Great. Hopefully I don't think I use those terms at all here. So I should be good but your point is well taken David and I think what we then want to sort of focus on is when we're talking about the pathology labs which we often don't talk about unless we have pathologists in the room and when we're talking about what the research study does. Although presumably there is some return of results from the clinician to the patient that was based on reporting. So they may intersect there. No, that would still be part of medicine and we would not use that term. Really? Which is again for me that's a concern. It's an ELSI concern. It's a topic of debate and grants and research. It's a research issue. In clinical medicine whatever goes in the clinical report the physician chooses how to deliver that information to a patient. And that's still reporting? It's reporting. As long as you all agree with that. Well it's reporting and it's also communication of results to the patient and how that's done. Is it only done by the physician treating the patient? Is the pathologist or geneticist involved? Does a genetic counselor have to be involved? And does it go into the personal health record? Because we all now have personal health records and so where do you put it there?  Just more terminology. We've been calling that the disclosure visit the physician to the patient. So maybe there's not... No, it's a good point because I think Dave is right is that people do use return term for that piece and maybe we can get them not to. We can certainly try but disclosure is an interesting one. Okay, and Dan, yes? Yeah, I think our group talks about this a little bit and I think it really the same value. It depends on where it comes from and the clinical contextualization. You know, is it... You know, you got a test in the clinical setting and you found maybe a little add-on versus this is getting something out of a biobank and you find the same thing. So I think this disclosure visit concept is great. This sounds to me a lot like a clinical research interface issue and maybe one that that group could address and give us something that perhaps would be a little more coherent than we can come up with with me standing at this podium. Is that something we could ask? Sure, I have 40 minutes to get there. Or at some subsequent meeting which we hope to have. No, it sounds like it's a real issue. Great, thank you. Okay, the financial reimbursement discussion was certainly lively which we very much appreciate. It doesn't look like any of them were able to make it back today which is very unfortunate. The point was made that utilization of imaging was driven by regulatory approval and reimbursement rather than evidence of benefit and that example has been brought up numerous times and saying why is genomics being held to a different standard. I guess some might say the problem was not that genomics is being held to a different standard. The problem is that that was a mistake but regardless it is an interesting point. Evaluation of evidence needs to work from a clinical problem rather than starting with a test. That was an excellent point. Several of them gave kind of their principles for coverage which is pretty much similar to what we heard from the labs that the services are related to prevention, diagnosis or treatment. The information will affect the course of treatment. The care and or treatment is likely to improve the outcome. An interesting one is attainable outside of investigational settings. So this is the real world setting not just in research. And then the services are consistent with the design of the plan and I think there are aspects of plan design that we weren't able to get into and that I certainly don't understand but it's a reasonable point. Comments? Okay. Great. And also there were suggestions in terms of what the evidence standards should be. Obviously analytic validity, clinical validity, clinical utility. Final approval from appropriate regulatory bodies is very helpful although it's not, again, a sine qua non but when it's required then obviously the payers would expect it as well. It wasn't clear to me how you know when it's required and when it's not maybe you all know that and we could expand on that. And there should be demonstrated benefit. Also the point made that having genetic counselors available by phone was actually quite an advance and made it much easier for physicians to use these tests. Any comments here? No? Yes. I think that final approval bullet has to do with when the FDA needs to require something like if it's a kit or whenever FDA will, that's what that's referring to. Oh, great. Thank you. Okay. Super. In addition, we heard that unit costs were the biggest driver of the escalation in healthcare costs and not utilization. So bringing down the costs of individual tests is probably, and again, tests were only, you know, a small proportion. I think 0.5% we heard overall healthcare costs but this is an important point. Costs from molecular diagnostics have risen much faster than other costs, 14% per year, just in a two to three year period. The point made that payers shouldn't fear innovation even though it always seems to cost more but look for those that will replace more expensive and less effective technologies. Certainly if some of the DNA testing for chromosome abnormalities becomes widely accepted, that would replace amniocentesis which would be a major advance and certainly would replace more expensive and at least riskier technologies. And there was an idea suggested and seemed to be resonating with the group as a whole that we find a way to make public-private academic collaborations to design studies to produce the decisive information that will convince payers as well as others to, you know, hospital labs to buy the equipment and as well as payers to pay for it to do these kinds of studies. And I think we'll hear a little bit more about potential plans to move that forward. Any changes to this one? Good. Okay. In public health, Toby talked about potential partnerships in genetics and chronic disease leadership in the state health departments. I think a group that we have not included in these meetings and one that we may want to consider doing. Local cancer and heart disease coalitions, national professional and disease related organizations. I think we recognized yesterday that the professional organizations are, again, a group that has not generally been at this table and perhaps is a stakeholder group we need to address. Patients, obviously. Genetical lines are patients like me. Considering cross-cutting goals and impact on health disparities would be wonderful to the degree that it can be done. And there was an interesting example as a potential sort of a use case scenario of hemochromatosis homozygotes who have signs and symptoms suggesting they might actually have the disease and yet are still getting iron per their medical records. Changes to this. Okay. Then we had the working group reports and we will have their reports and they'll be posted, but just to kind of summarize where we are, one suggestion was perhaps using a small business mechanism with Epic or one of the other medical record systems to incorporate some of the family history tools. Considering social network software and infrastructure for collecting or correcting family history information from relatives. So as a relative reports it, can they support it over to their relative and say you should know what's happening to me and I'd like to know what's happening to you, that kind of thing. A variety of interventions could be tested, optimizing collection and use or action on family history information in emergency settings such as those regarding a potential monoclonal infarction, bringing to other environments such as rural and underserved areas, educational environments such as residence and training. And of course the ever present question does the intervention work in usual care. And then the hope that the family history group would link to the sequencing working group both on Mendelian and complex traits and of course in the reverient space. Jeff did I get that right? Okay. The periodontal group, thanks Murray for keeping us to task here on this one. The management of patients with diabetes and periodontitis sounds like it's an active area certainly at Marshfield and with some other partners that you're developing. Management of dental patients is an area where genomics can contribute, especially in pain management and coagulation. There's an interest in bringing pharmacogenomic data to dentists with computerized decision support tools and ways of developing those. There may be an oral systemic personalized medicine model that could be developed that would again build on this link with diabetes, periodontitis and maybe other diseases in periodontitis. And the hope or the expectation that sequencing might replace culture in the microbiology laboratory which has potential for a huge impact and I think we could note that in clinical care it already has replaced culture in many cases. So this may be something to do in dentistry as well. Does that seem like a reasonable summary? Great. And I'm done. So many thanks to the planning committee and to... Oh, yes, Deborah? Can I just say that I think for the laboratories there also was something not captured and I thought it might come through in other areas and didn't think about it. Which is the uncertainty of regulatory oversight of all this testing in the clinical setting. We don't know what FDA is thinking about this. We don't know... While you said there aren't CLEA and FDA guidelines standards in this area, FDA has been talking about IVD-MIA which they've now done away with that terminology so we don't even know what to refer to it as. But the CAP has created some standards. But standards are kind of different than the regulatory oversight and whether we will be allowed to do this under an LDT process. Can you explain that? LDT. Laboratory-developed test. So we can validate tests in a CLEA-certified laboratory under CLEA standards and bring it to clinical use without going through the FDA. And then... But the FDA has just waived its oversight at the moment but it may step in at some point and regulate it. Which we don't know what that would do to using next-gen sequencing technology in clinical laboratories. So this is a huge clinical dark cloud. And our FDI colleague is going to make a comment in a second. Just one second. Have I captured what you said about it in that third bill there? No, it's actually uncertainty of regulatory oversight. Oh, sorry. That's what I just saw. The standards is a different thing than oversight. It's oversight. So just regulatory oversight rather than standards development? Yes. Perfect. And FDA doesn't do standards. So CLEA does standards. And the FDA can correct me. So in the previous bullet it would be no CLEA standards. Although CAP, ACMG and AMP now do have standards that they're introducing for next-gen sequencing technology including the bioinformatics. And I'm going to send those checklist questions to the sequencing working group. Oh, great. Thank you. Okay. So you think that this captures it now? Yes. I just had a quick question about freedom to operate. We didn't discuss that a lot. But sitting here thinking about returning data to patients, I know there was a recent Supreme Court case, Prometheus, that many people seem to believe is going to invalidate a lot of the diagnostic patents that are out there. I mean when we start to think about clearing the way for every base that we might want to report, I mean, is anybody working on that or thinking about that? May I comment? So I was just at a Cold Spring, Cold Spring Harbor two and a half day conference with a whole room full of patent attorneys. And they were...   Yeah, it does. It was pretty weird. They were talking language that I didn't understand at all, but they didn't understand what I was talking about. But I was definitely communicating the clinical impact of what they were doing. And they heard me and a few others. Wayne Groty was there, Bob Desmic, a few others. There were only, I think, four physicians in the room. So... But the patent issue is huge. And while the statement was made and it was even discussed by the patent attorneys that next gen sequencing may not infringe some of the patents, when you have a quarter of the genome patented, it's daunting. You can't possibly, from a medical perspective, when you're doing an exoma or a genome, think about how to collect all those licenses and pay the royalties and everything. So do you think if we add patent issue is huge? Is that... That's fine. And there actually is someone starting a clearing house for patents. Really? Yeah. And I can give you her contact information if you're interested. Oh, absolutely. She was one of the patent attorneys. Well, again, this Myriad case, Prometheus versus Myriad, some people believe that that kind of opens the door towards invalidating all of those claims. Oh, whatever. Well, I'm not a patent attorney, but I'm very confused by it. So the Myriad case is the one that's challenging the ability to patent human genes and human DNA sequence that's moving forward and the prediction is based on Prometheus that that case could lead to a decision about whether human DNA sequence and human genes are patentable or not. And I'm not sure that there's too much more we could all do while that case is proceeding. Depending on the outcome of that case, problem could be solved or we could decide it's a major impediment to diagnostics using large-scale sequencing and we need to do something else. So it has to be on the list of concerns, I guess. Concerns? Okay. Likewise, coming back to the CLEA FDA regulatory, it sort of is an obligatory bullet item on your list of worries. On the other hand, my view is FDA posture is the same as NHGRI, is learning from the community, coming to these meetings, trying to understand what we're doing and encouraging the community to work together to create databases, to create standards that will make it easier for them to decide if and how they need to regulate this new technology. So I think we should be encouraging more FDA participation at these meetings because my experience over the last five years with chromosome microarray now is sequencing is they come to learn and every time they hear about a community effort to develop standards, they're here to encourage us, that's the right thing to do and their worry is more about individual laboratories being too far ahead of the curve when there are no standards. Great. Yes, last comment? Thank you, David, for that. I just wanted to add because we put the bullet that there is regulatory uncertainty and that's certainly true, but there are many misstatements and that's the other part that we are trying to correct or let people know when we are at these meetings that people assume about FDA and one of them was somebody yesterday said there is no FDA guidance for IVDs. There's number of, that's what we do. We have a number of guidance for IVDs, for instance. So it's the same with standards. Yeah, we don't do standards per se, but we participate in bunch of standards. There are CLSI standards that you may want to add to the list of what you have with ACMG. CAP are in development. So there are a lot of ways to figure out how to evaluate. Sorry, CLSI? Yes, CLSI. And helping, what is that? Clinical Laboratory. We have a lot of standards institutes and they're working actually on the guidelines right now for next-gen sequencing. Great. Dan's going to tell me that we're really, really over time, but Brad, maybe one last last comment? I was just going to say on the patent issue and that territory, we actually have a grant funded research in this area to Bob Cook-Degan and it'd be really interesting to maybe hear what he has to say if he could come to one of these meetings or something. Sorry, use a microphone? He would what? He was at the Gene Patent... Oh, it's a culture and cover meeting also. Great, okay. Yeah, so we'll try and do that. Okay, so we do need to finish, I think. If, Deborah, if you could send that information to me and we'll post it on the website for this, which will be up on the Office of Population Genomics and HDRI website. So, Dan? Okay, no, I think... unless there are burning questions, I think we'll go on to our... a couple of presentations this morning.