So here we are with the session that we are going to be starting to speak about the Department of Children and Families. We have with us tonight, Ted Kenny, who will explain his role. He's an attorney and he's in charge of that department of DCF is called. We're here to talk about the role that DC have F has in the life of many people, and in particular with people who a lot who are medium income, maybe low income people, and they, and DCF is often in their lives and in the lives of many of our citizens. This event is Vicki Vermont Institute of Community and International involvement is sponsoring this. And we want to thank the Association of Africans living in Vermont for giving us space and the Caroline fund. And what else the Attorney General's office for giving us kindly Ted Kennedy who's in charge of that department and who will lead our discussion tonight. So with that I will introduce Ted Kenny. And again, an old colleague of mine Kenny, an old colleague of mine Ted and I've known each other for probably 100 years can. Yeah. And so he take it away, Ted and if you'll explain what it is that you do and what you don't do, and what you would like to do. I am my official title is that I am the division chief in the Attorney General's office for the human services, the agency of human services. The agency of human services is technically therefore our client and my client, I don't work for DCF. I am one of the lawyers that advises them. And in that I am, I'm kind of in charge of the lawyers that do that, and the agency also has a whole swath of state government in it including corrections, mental health, etc. The basics of it is that the lawyers that are in the in this section represent the department for children and families so I, my background is that I've been a lawyer since 1991. I did not always work for the state in fact I only started working for the state in the last year for the first time other than that. I've either had my own practice, or been with other lawyers. When I had my own practice, I was, I had a bunch of different contracts with the gender general system. And what that meant is that I would represent people who were accused of crime adults who were accused of crime in in what's now called the criminal division and adult court. But I also had a juvenile defender contract. What that meant is that DCF, or the state's attorney's office I represented, depending on the luck of the draw there would be times I would be representing a mother in court. I'd be representing a father or I'd be representing the children, or, you know, just mix and match I would be on all sides of the aisle. And Sandy and I actually had a number of cases over the years together where sometimes we're on the same side and sometimes we were not. But that that certainly did give me a interesting, and I think a very good perspective. And the name of this presentation is the Department for Children and Families, the influence of DCF in family lives of Vermonters. And before I go much further I'm going to note that I'm going to be looking over, because I have a couple of different computer screens in front of me in the era of COVID. And over here is where my notes are so I'm, I'm not trying to look pensive or wise, I'm reading my notes. And if I end up sounding wise, then that's, that's just, that's just coincidence. I'll interrupt you for one moment, because many years ago, prior to you becoming a lawyer, I guess I was the juvenile prosecutor for a while in the state's attorney's office. First, when Bill Sorrell was the head of the state's attorney's office and then with Mark Keller, and it certainly was one of the more important elements, certainly of my life as well. It's critically important work, no matter which side of the case you are on or assigned. It's super, there's, I don't think there's anything more important in the law. I suppose, I suppose we could think of examples but none come to mind. The influence of DCF and family lives so let me, let me start with defining what DCF is DCF does stand for the Department for Children and Families. Those of us who are older will remember that the name of the, this part of the government used to be different it used to be called SRS right social and rehabilitation services, but they changed to DCF, but it's the same thing. It is Vermont's child welfare agency. It's job. And you know this is, I understand having been a lawyer on all different sides of these cases that there will be, that the system is not always perfect so when I say things like what its job is I mean, ideally what its job should be. And its job is to make sure that children and young adults under the age of actually now 19 are safe or that they're safe from abuse, that their basic needs for things like food and clothing and shelter and healthcare are met. And that families are supported in achieving these goals when these things may be in jeopardy or questionable. That's what DCF's charge under the law is a little more specifically with with what DCF does to make that real. What does it actually do what are the nuts and bolts of what it does well. A number of things. First thing is it investigates suspected child abuse and neglect cases. And by the way, there is a swath of what DCF does that I'm not going to get into tonight because it would be a topic for an entirely different topic. It really involves juvenile delinquencies if young if young people are charged with what would be a crime if they were older than DCF is involved, basically with the equivalent of being a probation office they are in charge of making sure that they that the children do what they're supposed to do to rehabilitate themselves. But I'm not going to be getting into that because it's again it's a, it's a different, it's a different topic. So they investigate suspected child abuse and neglect. They evaluate children's safety needs through these investigations and assessments. If required, they set up services and support parents. And what the parents need to keep the children at home and safe. If it's not possible then they place children in temporary out of home care, if it's necessary to keep the children safe. They work with parents and relatives so the children can return home safely if they are taken out of the home. And then as a last resort, if, if, and this is very last resort if things go wrong for months at a time. They would find a permanent home for the children who can't return home safely and I'll get more into that later. But that's, that's the, that's, that's the worst case scenario. So essentially DCF is designed to be a family safety net is designed to help people when they're struggling with issues that make the children's lives. Make their health or safety in danger, make their psychological or emotional health in danger. DCF is designed to try to come in and be a safety net for, for that and again, I understand having been on all sides of these cases that DCF is run by human beings and human beings make mistakes. So I know that I'm in a kind of an ideal world here. And that is, that is the ideal that it is by law supposed to try to live up to. So one, one question that this brings up that I wanted to address is the scariest one. And that's whether DCF is going to take a child away from a family permanently. Well, there are there are times when, when that does happen, the children actually most of the time when a child is taken out of the home they actually get returned back. If everything goes according to plan and most of the time it actually does. But the answer of will DCF take my child away is that DCF is obligated to work with parents on a plan to keep the child at home in the first place. And its first instinct is not supposed to be to take children out of the home. This is something that I've seen, you know, since the 1990s where it's kind of a pendulum where it swings back and forth, where sometimes DCF is accused of acting too quickly to take children out of the home. And there are other times, it seems like the pendulum swings back and DCF is in the media because it did not move quickly enough to take. So it's, it's, it's a continuous, you know, as, as, as my boss TJ Donovan says, quoting his uncle, a wonderful former state senator, there are no final, there are no final battles in politics, and there is no final battle. Human human endeavors either. So, the first thing they would do is work with parents on a plan. If that plan does not work or if it cannot work, then DCF would ask a judge to review the case and died if the child must be removed from the home. This is one of the most important points here is that, you know, under American law, under Vermont law, parents have an absolute right, a constitutional right to raise their children, and children have a constitutional right to be raised by their parents. But, like any right, it can actually be lost if, if they parents can lose that right if they hurt the children or don't give them what they need. Now, again, these cases can get into a gray area but generally speaking it's not that people are children are taken away from parents because the parents don't own a home or they don't have a swing set or something like that there there's more serious going on in these kinds of things but the, I, I understand from my time in court over the decades that people are very concerned with DCF and whether they are going to jump in and suddenly take, take children away. I will share with people that my, my, my daughters are teenagers now. And when they were, when they were toddlers and when they were babies, this kind of thing being a lawyer and being having done this work myself and seeing things that go on in court. And this, this fear would enter my head sometimes. I was there, nothing ever. I was never accused of anything, but I realized that, you know, so I'm telling you that so that you realize that it's, you know, it's understand that I understand that this is a real concern in the community. But the big thing is that there is a constitutional right to raise your children and DCF has to go to a judge to get permission and a court order to take a child out of the home. Can I interrupt and ask a question. What about emergency hearings. Yeah, can DCF based on, for instance, if a neighbor calls DCF and says that there's abuse going on next door. Do you have to go in front of a judge before you would enter that home or get an order before you even enter the home or not. Yeah, is it ex party. Yeah. Yeah, so that means that the parents are not there in court to argue about it. And actually they're a most cases do not start that way but more than enough do aware. Where a situation arises where children are where information comes to DCF that a child is being very seriously abused or neglected. And in those cases, then an emergency hearing an emergency petition, which is really just a court filing, which is asking the judge on paper. Please give us the authority to go get this child and a report sworn to under oath on in writing. Supporting that this says, this is why it is, it is not.   But judges will read those reports and make a decision based on on them and sometimes they say no. Sometimes they say, this is not that much of an emergency, even if all of this stuff is true. So, go, you know, hand, hand these papers to these people and we'll have a hearing right away now, Sandy brought this issue up about what, you know, is it ex parte it is in terms of going to get the children, but the law is that the, the court has to have a hearing where the parents are allowed to be at and make their case later though right later usually later that day. In in Burlington it used to be in Chittenden County that they had family the family court judge that was doing this, these kinds of cases or as lawyers say this docket, because we're fancy and we can't just say cases. And a judge that is doing the that docket almost always reserves time between one and 130 every day. Really now, yeah, left blank where if there is an emergency situation, the judge will. That's that's when that will come in and deal with it every day. Yeah, and, and that's, you know, that's one of the dangers in family court as a lawyer is if you, if you have a hearing scheduled for 130 in a divorce case in some of the smaller counties Franklin County, or Addison County, or Grand Isle. And then an emergency situation has come on the clerk is going to tell you just wait. As soon as the judge is done and sometimes you can be waiting in the hallway for an hour waiting for you to, you know, because the judge is busy doing these emergencies. So that they, they don't just take your child away and then you never see them again. They, you will be in court if not that day then the next day. And I don't know if our listener or audience knows what X party means maybe you could. Well, what that X party means that only one side is talking to the judge without the other side being there and that's extremely unusual it's very special rules for it because the court is set up so that whatever is said to the judge is heard by both parties by everybody in the case. The exceptions to that are emergencies and this would be one of those kinds of emergencies. Another would be in a divorce case if there was a situation like this that you can do an ex parte case situation. I had an ex parte case is a private practice attorney where a clients. RV Winnebago type thing had been taken by his neighbor and we filed ex parte to have the sheriff show up with one of those big trucks to tow it away. Before he could sell it illegally and so I mean ex parte and it worked and you got it. It did. The big question was where they were going to put it. The sheriff was saying I'm not taking it back to the office. Yeah. So that that I'll get into the court process again in a minute but let me get a little more into detail of what DCF will do why it would open an investigation in the first place because again most of these cases are don't start with court they don't start with an emergency. They start a little slower than that, almost all of them, but not all of them. DCF will open an investigation if it receives a report that a child has been abandoned. Has been physically emotionally or sexually abused. Does not have enough food or clothing or shelter or health care. Is that significant risk of being abused or neglected, or was that is without proper medical care education or other necessary things. Those, those are the big categories there is pretty much the sky is the limit it's, it's, you know, human nature and you can't anticipate every, every scenario but those. Those are the big reasons generally why a case is opened DCF has a obligation under Vermont law to investigate every case that comes in. Yeah, at least at least to look at it, and they, and they do. I will say I've had, I've had divorce cases where one of the, one of the parents is making so many reports to DCF the DCF finally says their their investigation of it is we received this but we know that this person lies. The other parent does, because we've investigated it 100 times. That's, that's that, but they, they do have to at least do something but they usually will do an actual investigation. Let me let me share with the group what the definition of child abuse is under Vermont law. And if anybody is taking notes that the citation of where you can find this is in the Vermont statutes annotated those are the laws that the legislature passes. In Article 33 Vermont statutes annotated section 4912. And it says that abused or neglected child means a child whose physical health, psychological growth and development, or welfare is harmed or is at substantial risk of harm by the acts or omissions of his or her parent, or other person responsible for the child's abuse.  So a couple of things out of that that you should keep in mind one is that it's not just what child abuse is not defined in Vermont just by what somebody does. It can also be defined by what a parent does not do that any normal parent would. And so that that would be something as well so that an example that has come up many times and again a lot of this stuff is very dark. Then, yeah, it is, it is what it is. But if, if a parent knows that their spouse and let me put the genders in because it's had cases where there are women doing this but it almost always it's men who are sexually abusing a child. And the mother knows that that's going on and isn't doing anything about it.  Likewise, obviously the per the man involved in that scenario would be abusing the child obviously. But that's that's the kind of thing as well. It's not though I want to be clear about this that it's if a child is being physically or sexually abused and the parent is not. And one of the parents is not doing anything to stop it. That parent is very likely not going to get into legal trouble if they come forward to protect their child. I've, I've never seen it where a mother goes to the police and says, my, my new boyfriend has been hitting my son for no reason. And I need, I need help. They're not going to, they're not going to throw the woman in jail because she didn't do anything before or something like that. So I want to dispel that if that's a concern that comes to mind. Again, I'm sorry to interrupt you can I ask a question, please, because I've seen cases though where a woman is being abused herself by her partner male usually, and that is considered also grounds I think if she puts up with it, that she could lose her children too, is that correct. That is correct. The thought is that the children living in that circumstance are being psychologically, mainly psychologically but also emotionally abused and neglected that they're being exposed to a violent situation that is harming their development and will basically perpetuate and continue a cycle of this kind of activity. Children, children learn from example more than anything else. So yeah, that that is true. It, it's not the fear that a lot of people have and I've represented a very large number of women who have been abused. They begin to fear that if they go forward to say anything about it, that they will somehow lose their children and the men who are doing the abusing will say that I one of the last private cases I had was a teacher. I was actually representing her in a personal injury case where she had been hurt, and we were making a claim for the company that was responsible for her being hurt. And I called her about the about her case and she sounded very upset and I asked her what was wrong and she had just blurted out that her husband had been abusing her terribly. And she was a teacher, and he was a businessman, and he had not done anything to leave a bruise, but he had a gun. He said that he was going to kill her. He said that he would, that if she, if she left him, he would get the best lawyer he could and he would, he would take the baby and she believed him. And, and it's, it's easy. We're off topic here but let me just finish my thought is that it's, it's easy to think that that, you know, how could, how could she believe that she is a college educated professional she was a early education teacher I think second grade teacher in a rural part of Vermont. And the answer is that it didn't start out that way. He didn't, he didn't one day say this because if he had she would have said, What are you talking about you've lost your mind. It was one little step at a time. And it's the analogy and I actually don't know if this is scientifically true but a frog boiling in water that if you drop a frog into boiling water, it'll jump out. If you drop the frog in room temperature water and you slowly put the temperature up, it won't jump out, because it will keep acclimating to it. And so I said that that was a textbook example but you know she she was not in any trouble herself to, you know, to go to the authorities and I luckily her parents were up visiting as luck would have it and the situation was entirely resolved in 24 hours. And they are now divorced. Right. So, just add something real quickly. Hello. Can you hear me. Yes. Yeah, Charlotte then I'm a lawyer but I just wanted to bring up something that I found terribly shocking. It was a case I worked on years ago for Kirk Hughes I was then a paralegal. These two daughters, these two young women had been virtually abused by their stepfather. From the time they were almost infants till they were young teens. And it turned out that the mother knew about it. And she encouraged it. She told the girls, this is how you're going to learn about sex. And what ultimately happened is the girls finally sued, and they sued DCF. And DCF was punished with a $10 million fine, if you like. It was a big case, but what shocked me is that apparently this happens that there are a lot of a lot of women maybe in rural areas that that have this opinion. You know, this is how you're going to learn about sex. Charlotte, I really wouldn't say that there are a lot, or that it occurs only in rural areas. If that kind of abuse happens, it certainly is also occurring in cities, I would guess. Yeah, fair enough.  She had basically she was also physically abused by the man and was basically led into it. But it's still not that they're not responsible. At that point, but yeah, that case made precedent by the Vermont Supreme Court that Charlotte was just talking about and was a big, a big, big decision. So, yep. So how does how would DCF investigate these a case if they get a report that a child is being neglected or abused in a family. What do they do. Well, the first thing, I don't know first, but they're they're their instructions are to do the following and none of these are mandatory but they're what they are as the case requires it's what they are to do. They're to visit the family home if it's safe to do so. They are to interview the parents or other adults in the home who serve in a parental role to try to figure out what's going on. By the way, a lot of cases get dismissed at the not even they're not in court, a lot of cases get closed by DCF. But when, when that happens a lot don't but it's entirely possible that DCF will look around the house and say, you must have a neighbor who hates you because we got a report that this place is full of garbage but it's clearly not. See you later. But they will interview the parents and other adults they'll go to the home. They can underlaw, if, if the child if the parent is. I guess the suspect of of significant abuse or neglect and this is usually in cases where there is sexual abuse or neglect. Then the law allows the DCF workers to speak to the child. Without the parents permission. It almost always happens at school. That is the DCF has a legal right to do that and they do do that. And that they don't need any permission because if they needed permission then they would be asking the abusive parent, can we talk to the child about you abusing the child and the abusive parent would say, no, no you cannot. So they are allowed to do that. And actually let me stop here and just want to be clear because these these cases that end up in court, usually do involve if they're sexual abuse that usually involves a stepfather a boyfriend, or the father.  The percentages are most.  It's usually not the biological father, but there are more than enough cases where it is. So they all take. Also accurate that many stepfathers to. Yeah. That's, in fact, I was involved in cases when I had the contracts where the stepfather was sexually abusing the stepdaughter but not his own biological daughter. Yeah, anyway. But, but again, you know, I had a friend who was a radiation technician I don't know the actual words for it but she she treated people who had cancer. Sure. She, she and I were talking once and we both concluded that she thinks everybody has cancer. And I think every child is being abused. And she, she told me I was wrong and I told her she was wrong it's just that's what we see all day because that's what we do. And it's important to keep that in mind, you know, the vast majority of children are not being abused they're not being neglected. And, you know, when we talk in these terms it's easy to go dark, as we say, you know, have a, but anyway, the one DCF investigates these cases they they have a number of factors that they consider. These are things like the child's vulnerability, the caretaker conditions that pose a current danger for the child or threaten the child's immediate safety, and the family's capacity to keep the child safe in the immediate future. If the child is not in any immediate danger. It's not going to be some sort of emergency thing in fact it might not even go to court. It's not going to be any number of cases where a child has been abused by somebody who is not a permanent member of the family or a neighbor or something like that and in those cases, it does not go to court DCF will provide services. And the parents voluntarily agree to, you know, work with DCF and then DCF closes the case, and the family goes on without without the government in its life, at least not that part of the government. The, so that brings me up to the next question is, which I've been speaking of for some time but let me just emphasize, does DCF always find a problem when it investigates. It does not. If there is no risk to the child found, then DCF will close the case. If the risk is low or moderate, then DCF will try to work with the family and if everything goes well DCF will close its own case, not a case in court, but its own case on its own files within 60 days or so. That's, that's, but they comes knocking does that mean that you're only steps away from losing your children forever No, I don't want to underestimate I don't want to undersell how scary that can be or what could happen if there's a serious problem, or, or something goes horribly wrong, but the vast majority of the time that that's not the case. So, what does DCF do if help is needed. There is a process that they follow. They are to identify the issues that the family needs to address. They have to assess the child's condition, not just the family but the child specifically. They are to assess the family's capacity to protect the child. We talked about that a moment ago. To identify ways the extended family can help. Is there an aunt and uncle family friends, grandparents who can assist the family through a situation. And identify the services the family might need those in the last 10 to 15 years, by and large that is that involves substance abuse, and putting parents into drug treatment programs. But that's, that's the kind of that'd be an example of pointing people in a direction so that they can get the help they need so that they can be good parents and actually even that phrase let me stop there for a second. The law actually says that parents only need to be adequate. But that, that is, I suppose you could look at that from a one perspective and say, well, that's a very low standard, but it's, it's not adequate means adequate means good enough. And the reason for that standard is that they don't want a judge coming in and saying, well, the biological parents, they're adequate, but the foster parents my goodness they're college educated they're wealthy they have a wonderful backyard. So I'm going to go with that and give give these people a child. No, all all a parent has to be is adequately. But to get there. DCF will oftentimes recommend individual counseling, family counseling as a group parenting classes to teach parents expectations of certain ages that the children are at. And as I mentioned substance abuse treatment for alcohol or drugs, and even job training, if, if that's a requirement. So the next question is when, when would a case go to court. And that's where that's where most people's focus is in these cases. Because that's scary. The answer is, it's, it would be a serious situation. If a parent hurts a child, if a parent neglects a child. If a parent does not protect a child from abuse or neglect. If the parent is abusing is using drugs or abusing alcohol.  The example that was given sometime ago was exactly right if the children are actually being exploited in the home in a sexual way then that case will go to court. So the next question would be what is the court process what would one expect if, if that is going on. Well, if that if it comes to that is what I should have said. What I'm missing to know is that the, the lawyer that files these is actually the state's attorney, not the Attorney General's office. The state's attorney and Sandy was in this job when she was a deputy states attorney is is the local prosecutor and they file what's known as a petition. Petition petition just means the allegation. It's the document that is the allegation in equivalent in a criminal case would be an indictment it says what what they think you did wrong. In a civil case it would be a complaint where a car accident I'm the complaint reads that the person went through a red light and hit me and I got a broken arm, something. But this is this in this area of law is called a petition. And they asked the judge in the, in the allegation they asked the judge to find that the child is a child in need of supervision. CH ins, chins, and that's what everybody calls it chins. If you say chins, people in the area will know, we'll know what you mean. And these are known as chins proceedings. And the chins paperwork that the states attorney files will give DCS side of the story. And, you know, again that that that's the first thing that the judge reads. Now parents, you know, I want to be clear it's not like all is lost big brother is there you are doomed. If this ever does happen. They have a right to their own lawyer. If they can't afford a lawyer, one will be provided for them that's what I did. And I want to be clear, I took that job very seriously and worked hard for my, my clients. I don't. Well, I suppose there are some lawyers that I would say are probably not as good as others as in any profession, but by and large the lawyers that do this in Vermont take their job very seriously. And they, they, they will be your lawyer, even if you're not paying them. Interestingly enough, each parent has a right to their own lawyer. The mother gets a lawyer, the father gets a different lawyer. The reason for that is because you, you can't tell as the case goes forward depending on the family dynamics family circumstances. The parents might not be allies. They might start out as allies and not end that way or they might not start as allies but end up a team. But each one gets a right to their own lawyer. Even if you don't have money to hire one. You have a right to see the DCF report that gets filed with the judge and the process will allow you to dispute disagree with DCF side of the story and give your version of events. The thing is though, that's not what's going to happen on the first day, it will happen. It will, but not on the first day. The first hearing would be a preliminary hearing where everybody comes to court if it's been an emergency, then it'll be like sandwiched in and scheduled that way. But at a preliminary hearing, and I suppose this sounds a little unfair but in the scheme of the entire process, it actually works out in a balanced way. But at the first hearing, the judge has to presume that the report that DCF is filed is true. They have to take it at first at face value. And go with that now they don't keep that point of view after that day. But in the first, the first thing that they do is they look at it and say, if this report is true, does it rise to the legal definition of child abuse or child neglect. And if it does not, then the judge would dismiss the case rate then in there. That almost never happens. It could. But it's the judge is supposed to review it for is what lawyers say a prima facie case which means if this is all true. Does does it hit all of the ingredients for child abuse, child neglect. The judge will not presume that to be true at later hearings, but at the preliminary hearing based on what's in that report and having to take it as true. In a serious case where the children, the judge will decide where the children will live until the judge can figure out at a hearing where everybody gets more time to present stuff. The judge will decide where the children are going to live. Are they going to go into foster care or are they going to be returned home, but the judge will issue a court order to the parents, you know, do not let Uncle Joe around the children. Whenever they go to school. This medicine must be given to the child, you know, whatever the issue is whatever the situation is. That can happen as well. If the children are told are going to be living somewhere else than at that hearing the judge will almost always come up with a court order for what kind of contact the parents will have with the children. Whether they can see them, how they can see them phone calls. Does it have to be a supervised visit things like that. And then at the also at the preliminary hearing the judge will schedule another hearing that will determine so the judge can see for herself or himself. If this stuff is even true and have witnesses and evidence and things like that and they'll put a scheduling order in place for that. The next step of the court process would be actually not taking place in court. But that would be where the lawyers who are representing the parents would have a chance to talk to the parents and this is this is measured in days and weeks. By the way, this is not like that day. But the lawyers will talk to the parents, they will investigate the case, read the reports. Talk to witnesses, even possibly question the DCF worker in in some kinds of things that are called a deposition where the you can ask the questions before you even get to court and they're under oath and it's a little more informal because they're usually recorded and there's there's no judge. But these these kinds of things would again be measured in weeks. Another, another thing that might be happening the whole time depending on the case is that it's possible that you may try to reach an agreement if you're the parents you may try to reach out of court. So it'll go back to court but an agreement between the parties between DCF and the parents. It could be that the parents will do counseling and then get the children back in the home. If a dangerous person is living in the home that person would leave and they would get a court order that they're not allowed to come back a restraining order. All of that is completely up to the parents though, if the parents don't want to agree. They don't have to. They can, they can wait and they can present their case to the judge and the judge will listen to their side of the story. I would say though that that if the lawyer does recommend that something works out where you're going to get your children back. That is something you should very seriously consider. Yeah, I used to tell my clients that when I had the parents and not the children and say, look, you know, they, they say that you need to do alcohol counseling you say you don't have an alcohol problem. Okay, do the counseling, even if you don't have an alcohol problem and then you'll do really well at it, and you'll get your children back and but if this is about pride or the principle of the thing. I would trade my pride for my children. And a lot of people would do that but some people would not and we have a contested hearing. Ted before is, I'm wondering if anybody has any questions because we're approaching seven o'clock I don't know what your schedule is but maybe, maybe, maybe people do have some questions I don't know that. Yeah, I probably have another five minutes on what I'm okay. I got I got time. In the court process the next thing would be if it doesn't get resolved it'd be a merits hearing that's basically the same as a trial in these kinds of cases. If the judge decide DCF and each parent would get a chance to tell their side of the story, each side's lawyer would get a chance to question the witnesses that come to court. Everybody would get a chance to introduce evidence under the rules of evidence, but have a chance to do that. It is a formal process it really is, you know, court, real judge. If the judge decides that DCF was right that the child was abused or neglected, then the judge will will say so either say so that day, which is not most of the time. Most of the time judge will say I'm going to take this under advisement, and they go back and they think about it and then he or she will write type. What they found to be the facts and what they concluded from that. And so then if that does happen the judge would schedule a disposition hearing which is the now what do we do part. If the judge decides that DCF was wrong, then the case is dismissed, and nothing else happens. Either side can appeal to the Vermont Supreme Court, the Vermont Supreme Court will hear the case. The Vermont Supreme Court will only listen to cases for legal mistakes, it will not. It will not decide who was telling the truth except except in extreme circumstances. It will usually decide whether the judge made a mistake in introducing certain kinds of evidence to the judge misunderstand a rule. I get something wrong about that but it won't, it's not a do over in front of the Supreme Court. If there is the next stage because the judge said that found the DCF was right, then the disposition, a disposition report is written by DCF. The disposition report is to the judge and everybody gets a copy of it. It's supposed to be three days before a hearing so you have time to read it and think about it. And that'll tell the judge what, what DCF thinks happened and what DCF thinks should happen next. Almost always, almost always includes steps that the parents will take to become better parents to make sure the children are not abused or neglected and basically to either get the children back. Or if the children have been in the house the whole time, which is possible, which happens, a good chunk of the time, just to get DCF out of their life. Consider it's me like a roadmap that if you do these following things and do them adequately then, you know, you will get the children back and DCF will be out of your life. To come up with that plan DCF will have talked to the parents witnesses family members professionals. People like that. Parents can disagree with the plan, either all of it or a part of it. I agree with, you know, that I need to go to alcohol counseling but I really don't have an anger problem. I had that one time where I yelled, but and the judge might say yeah you're right you don't have to do that. If a disposition plan is put in place. It really should be followed. The plans happen a lot where the children are still living in the home, or they're being transitioned back to the home. So, it's important to follow that if that, you know, again, just in a, in a brutal nuts and bolts way.  Follow the plan. If the disposition plan is not followed in a serious way, and parents, you know, if there's a serious abuse serious neglect serious mental health issues that are not being addressed, or anything like that. And it goes on for long enough, then DCF can go back to ask the judge to terminate parental rights and parents will no longer be the parents ever. It's, it's a death penalty for parenting, basically. That involves a huge new case more huge hearings, more witnesses more evidence. They're, they're big deals. If the judge agrees with DCF at that, then the children would no longer belong to the parents the parents would not be the parents of those children anymore. That can also be appealed to the Vermont Supreme Court. I bring that up so that I flesh out the entire spectrum, but do keep in mind that that that is rare. The vast majority of the DCF cases do not end in a termination of parental rights so to wrap up.  You have a protected constitutional right to raise your children as you see fit. But that right is not total. It is not absolute. You are not a king or a queen. DCF can ask you, or if they that doesn't work, they can ask a judge. They can ask you to do things if your children are in danger to make yourself a better parent or to make sure the children are not in danger or harm. And if the case does go to court, parents have a right to a lawyer and a right to tell their side of the story to the judge, all throughout the case. So it's not, and again, I know that there is oftentimes fear in the communities. Sometimes, sometimes that fear is justified, I have to say. Sometimes DCF is staffed by people who are being human beings reach the wrong conclusion. But there is a system in place that will, that will, if you, if you do the system. The odds are that this will not end in a nightmare and that everything will, you know, your life will go back to normal. There are no promises, but that is, that is generally how these cases actually do and so that is my case that's my conclusion. Thanks. Thank you, Ted. Really thank you a lot. That was very good presentation. But I do have a question or something that I heard recently. First of all, the mission of DCF is to reunify families right. Yes, I mean that is the mission that the biological family or the adoptive family should be unified and that's in the best interest of the kids. Right. And one of the ways that DCF does this is by visitation with the parent. Although the kid might be in a foster situation, might be in the custody of DCF. However, in general, visitation is allowed with the, with the biological or adoptive family right yes.  Is that true. But there is some truth to that. Because of the uptick in infections. And because parents who because children who are in state custody are not in the same pod family as their biological parents. That does pose a greater risk of infection so the, the department is asking parents to voluntarily change to video visits for the next. I don't even know how long honestly, it depends on the science I guess. But yeah that that is true if that, if that can't be worked out, then it really depends on the circumstances. So one example would be if, if the parents are generally. If everybody involved the foster parents, the social worker the parents themselves are not in a class of people that would find coded extremely difficult to deal with, or if somebody in their family isn't in that so somebody's under no suppressed or has underlying condition that would be very hard for them to survive COVID. If that's the case then there's, it's likely if that those face to face visits are going to continue on provided, which right now everybody is supposed to be wearing a mask anyway, but provided that that mask is actually in place. It's a very fluid policy that the but if, if there is a situation where, where a say a foster family has a child who is struggling with cancer treatments and is immunosuppressed, then the, the department either probably through the state's office that's where that's who handles most of these cases would ask would go to would go to the judge, and the department would be asking the judge to make the visits video visits. And I say no DCF does not have the power by itself to decree an order that all visits are going to be suspended. These visits are in place because they are a court order and then you get into powers the, the DCF is part of the branch. And they have to obey court orders like everybody else and the judicial branch is separate and the judicial branch is the one that said this is an order do it. If, if DCF just shuts off the visits and they would be violating a court order. There are extreme circumstances though Sandy where DCF does have the authority to stop a visit if there is risk of harm to a child. That's true all the time. So if the child that's in foster care is, you know, immunosuppressed, they're not going to say well, go to the visit anyway and let's just hope you end up okay well we wait for the court to decide but that that's extremely rare. And that would be an emergency hearing and, you know, everybody would try to get in as fast as possible but. But I know they know there's been some confusion about that and I can't get much more into it but there's been. Yeah, a lot of work behind the scenes on that. Right, right. That's how I happen to hear about it is behind the scenes but thank you for clarifying that I think Barry has a question right Barry. I think he's not there, right in the chat there might be in the chat yeah. Two questions when the complaint is sworn to who's sworn to by whom. Generally the DCF investigator. It'd be the investigator that is reporting what other people are saying on personal knowledge or information and belief the answer is both. If the DC is the author of the report that would be swearing to it and the author if they have firsthand information would put that in the report. Otherwise they would be relaying what other people told them, and that would be on information and belief. That's that's the same in pretty much everything I mean a criminal case starts in Vermont where the police report comes in police almost never actually see a crime happening. They respond after the crime occurred and they talked to the victim or they talked to witnesses, and then they report what they said and present that to the court. Basically the same thing. Have independent studies been done to determine the level of class racial religious bias on the part of investigators judges etc. I don't know but I have to assume that they have been. I will tell you that the. Is a big. That is a big issue in the Attorney General's office. We have. TJ Donovan actually had a 21 day course that we took about an hour, an hour a day. This summer on implicit bias and prejudice and that that thing that kind of thing. Levels of there been investigations and studies on this, I have to imagine there have been. I have to imagine that that is part of the system implicit bias is everywhere. I will say I'm, I'm sure I am, I would know that I am guilty of that too. And I think that's the first step, but, but yeah, that's, if the, if the follow up question to that would be, I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth but is there class and racial and religious bias in the system. It's got to be got to be. And that's, that's a problem that we need to need to keep working on. Charlotte, Charlotte. Yeah. On the question of foster families. Is it true that foster that the law has really not caught up with the rights of foster families. Well, it depends. Foster foster families are not parties to a chins case. When I had the contract they weren't even allowed in the room. That at least has changed. They are allowed to come in and observe and they are heard the judge, the judge will let them speak in certain kinds of hearings, but but they are not party status. They, they don't have the right to file motions or argue the case or call witnesses. So, in a way, isn't that unfair? I'll give you an example. My husband and I fostered a child. And the child had very difficult emotional situation. And just because the child acted up when a DCF person visited and ran and got knives and was throwing them around, but it was not against us. It was against DCF. We had a child from our home and we had no recourse, none whatsoever. It was very painful. This little kid did not want to get thrown in yet another house by DCF. And there you get the whole problem of litigation. I mean, I'm sure they interpreted the event as the child was endangered because he was grabbing knives. You see, that's one thing I learned that foster families, you know, they go through a lot as well and they have very little legal recourse. Yeah. I, you know, I haven't looked at the law in on that area in a number of years, but my understanding is that that would still be the case that the foster parents would not have a legal remedy. They couldn't go to court on something. And that that's really not a good thing. Wouldn't you say, I mean, foster families take on a lot. Sure, they do. The right response to that the right legal response to that I hate to say it but the actually just the way the system is set up. That's something that the legislature would have to address. To me it's in the same category as de facto parents. The Supreme Court, at least three cases that I know of, ruled that the person who was the domestic partner of the biological parent, so the boyfriend or the girlfriend or whoever, that when that relationship broke up, the boyfriend had been dad for nine years and the child is nine. No, right. And the Supreme Court said in three different cases. Until the legislature speaks on this. This is the way it is it's not our job we interpret the law, the law is set by the legislature. If we did something on this it would be, we would be the legislature and we're not. And the legislature finally did move on that and finally did create a de facto parenting statute. That is that has been used. Actually, it's very uncertain about that so uncertain about what rights people have with children simply by being with with a biological parent for instance, if that you know it doesn't. I mean it could be harmful to a kid to give rights to that kind of a person also, but in the case of foster parents they're hired also by the state basically they're paid by the state isn't that true. And I don't know if there would ever be a time when they would really have legal rights to a kid. Yeah, I think, I think you're right and I think, well, as it stands now, the legislature could always change that. Are there other questions because I do have one but I don't want to interrupt anybody else anybody else have a question, because I wanted to know something about cultural differences I've had people come to see me who are not born and raised in the United States and and for instance thought that DCM have been intrusive because they had spanked their kids, or worse, I mean, seriously spanked the kid, and basically thought that they in their own countries had that right and of course it used to be in the United States that you could also spank your kids and not get into any trouble about it. But do you see any problems with cultural differences Ted, and the involvement of DCF. Well, you know, the statement I would the answer I'd give would be probably unsatisfactory because it's going to be a blanket statement but the answer is yes. I think that's got to be true. Anytime human beings are involved in one person's from one culture and other person culture but I, you know, I am not, I am not a social worker and I don't actually work for the department I'm the lawyer who supervises the lawyers who work for the department and have done these cases for years, but I don't, I don't know what kind of cultural training DCF has. I do know that that you know that I did, there is bias and in about other cultures and in the people who are in the system from when I was doing these cases in the 90s I had a guardian Ed Lightham once who was an elderly gentleman. He did, did not like him. And he, he made a statement once that these two men of they were from there, they were Arabic. I don't remember which specific country they were from but one of them was accused of sexually abusing child. And he, he said that he thought that that might be because of the Arabic culture. That's crazy. It's just insane. And you know I, I told him so. But, you know, it on the other hand though you know the, the, the culture of that by that example the culture of spanking that's changed in the United States has changed. I know I was a kid. I know when we grew up when I grew up it was quite alright to spank I mean it would never be an even question I don't know what other people's experiences with that but that's a really. I mean I remember being, you know, that we were kind of hit on occasion in the public schools, you know, your knuckles were wrapped and stuff like that and it wasn't illegal. It was acceptable wasn't it. Any other questions anyway. I've got a follow up to Charlotte's question. In that situation. What would the role the moment, I believe you said that the child has an attorney right. Yes. Okay well if the child has an attorney shouldn't the attorney be looking into whether it's in the child's best interest to have been taken away from a foster home. That would be the reasons that were stated, and maybe get in touch with Charlotte, or whoever, and, you know, be able to call her as a witness. Sure, you know I that that would involve getting deep into the disposition, or, you know, probably would be at the disposition phase phase. And that would require, you know, probably an emergency motion or some kind of motion by the child's attorney. I don't know the chances of success of such a thing but would, would a child's attorney be able to make that move on as I don't know it sounds like they probably would. I actually I don't I don't know the legal answer to that I, I do know as as a lawyer and bury your, your an attorney that my, my thought one this these back in the day was give it a try. It might not work, but see what happens. Anybody else have a thought, but it is getting late and I do have one final question. I have heard often that children themselves if they've been abused or neglected, nevertheless always want to be with their biological family, and that it is the sense of the law, I think that the biological or adoptive family is in the best interest of the children, and that that is a real mission. Is it or not Ted to reunify those families. Yes, because it is assumed it's in the best interest of the child that that is the presumption, the legal presumption that actually means something not just presumption like well I presume that that's that's the that's the direction that the court is pointed in at the beginning of the case. In some cases, Vermont Supreme Court has said point blank that, and as I said, not only is there a constitutional right for parents to raise their children, but the children have a constitutional right to be raised by their parents, and to overcome that constitutional right. It's, it's the highest legal standard in civil law is clear and convincing evidence that that just something that. So that being said, that that is how this that's where it is supposed to go. That system is pointed in that direction. Okay, paper. Great, thank you. And it actually generally is. Yes, that's great thank you very much Ted any final thoughts or questions before we close for the day any of you guys up there. Thank you. That was great. That was really good. Thank you very much. Sandy was so good to see you again. Yeah, right. Me too. Ted, when this code is over, we should get some coffee. Yes, right. Yeah. Thank you.


Nancy Pelosi is not representing San Francisco when she won't call for a ceasefire and she won't stop the genocide and We say that because the Board of Supervisors passed a ceasefire resolution Close to 80% of Democrats want a ceasefire. What party does Nancy Pelosi represent? The Pope says in the name of God ceasefire Is she Catholic? Yeah, is she a good Catholic? The point is that she no longer or she never maybe never did represent the interests of the people of San Francisco in Congress She won't meet with the people. She won't meet with the people. She doesn't hold town meetings She is inaccessible to her constituents And so we have to come to her house if we want to get our voices heard and occasionally we do because occasionally She's home. Is she home right now? Nancy Pelosi is not doing anything to stop a genocide that we are watching And that we that that is hurting us very much who here is having trouble sleeping Who here is having trouble just leading a normal life right now because we're watching a ceasefire I mean we're watching a genocide unfold in real time and Who here is aware of the holocaust that the Jews suffered in the not by the Nazis and who here when you Think about that holocaust They killed they say six million, but I don't know the number. It doesn't matter When you think about that, do you ever say to yourself what would I have done? Yeah, so I grew up as a Jewish person secular Jewish person, but my family was members were murdered in the holocaust and This is a holocaust worse because we're seeing it in real time We can't say that we can't be good Germans who looked away How she can be looking away, I don't understand if anybody knows what's going on in her heart That she could just let this happen with our and fund it and give our money to Lockheed Martin for hellfire Missiles which cut up the victim when they land. They have a blade that goes around Lockheed Martin is really making a lot of money from this genocide and Raytheon and Boeing and Grumman and General Dynamics and Elbit and Hewlett Packard and on and on they are all merchants of death, they're all war profiteers Okay Talking point number two not representing No, no number one not representing San Francisco number two is not representing the world the whole world wants a ceasefire The whole world wants this genocide to stop before it goes any further and with Netanyahu announcing That he's bombing Rafa the last refuge where they have been sent for safety and they have nowhere to go And there's over a million people Who have no safety no security they have no way Children thousands of children have been killed and what difference does it make if the number is accurate? It makes no difference if the Hamas Ministry of Health is the one giving the figures We can see with our own eyes And when I see a child Sitting in a hospital shaking with fear and having a bomb having gone off nearby and their ears are ringing And they don't even know what's Happening to them How am I supposed to react to that should I say yay? We're going after Hamas No, I don't say that not for a minute. It's not about Hamas It's not complicated This is not complicated don't let anybody say that this is too complicated We have hearts and we see that genocide going on and we need it to stop now And we're here today for that reason accusing us of being agents of Russia or China it is funny, but it's also extremely dangerous It's extremely dangerous because the FBI is a lawless outfit that murders people with impunity And I'm sure that you know who I'm talking about everyone from JFK to Malcolm X to Martin Luther King Jr. to Judy Berry to a Fred Hampton I mean I could go on and on and they do it and we are Targets now. I'm not just talking about me.   We don't appreciate that at all I'm very very afraid


What's up everybody, Jason here for JaspysCaseRace.com. 2022 Bowman Draft Sapphire Edition Baseball just sold out. Excuse me, this was a five box hobby break ran on teams number 12. The last five boxes of the case. Now again, this is an early bird spot giveaway, so if you bought one of the first 16 spots, have a chance to win a free spot. All teams in, all cart ship, look for two exclusive sapphire colored parallels in every box. So here's the dice roller, here's this first 16 there, and there's the rest of everybody else there. So let's use the dice roller to randomize for the early bird, and then we'll use the same dice roller for the names and teams in the break. Roll it, and it's a three and a two, five times. Good luck. Name it number one, it gets a free extra spot in this break. One, two, three, four, and five. Five times, five, five. Nicoba, congratulations, there you go. Boom, free spot for you, buddy. Now let's go five times here on the names and teams. Now one, two, three, four, five. Five times, five, five. Timothy, down to Joe. Five times here now, one, two, three, four, five. Metz, down to the Nationals. All right, so Timothy and the Metz, Joe with a raise, Dave with the Red Sox, Logan with the Mariners, John Paul with the Angels, Nicoba with the Rockies, Jacob with the Marlins, Cassandra with the Tigers. Yeah, with the Diamondbacks, Raymond with the A's, Dave with the Phillies, Matthew with the Braves, Matthew Sheer that is, Matthew Forsythe with the Pirates, Cassandra with the Guardians, Wade with the Giants, Dave with the Royals, Anthony with the Cubs, Logan with the Astros, Jason with the Brewers, Nicoba with the Padres, Dave with the Cardinals, Nick with the White Sox, Dave with the Orioles and Reds, Joe with the Dodgers, Dave with the Yankees, Nick with the Rangers, John Paul with the Blue Jays, Matthew with the Twins, and then Joe with the Washington Nationals. Alphabetize it there for you guys. You guys wanna make any trades? I'll keep the trade window open really quick. All right guys, I'm gonna get Sumino trades in. The last five boxes there, it looks like Joe or whoever did the last one numbered them 12 right there. So here we go, guys. Kevin Perrata, that's the first rounder there. So self-stuberant. Wow, this box only had one color. Robbermore to 99. What's going on here? You got cheated? Did one of the first five boxes have three colors? Hopefully there's an extra color hiding in one of those boxes, but only had one color sitting in this box. Look at that, huh? What's no boy on? This box also only has one color. What's going on here? Eric Brown Jr., first rounder. Thank you, Romero. Kate Horton. Jet Williams. Tamar Rocker. Reggie Crawford. Evers is also a first rounder. And then Mike Cole Hernandez to 99. Jordan Beck. So I had a lot of first rounders in the box though. Can't have just had one, right? Was there any problems in the first five boxes anybody watching? I don't remember when we did the first five, but. Looks like the first pack always has one. And it's yellow again. Kinda getting me nervous. First two have been yellows. Am I tripping balls right now? No, finally. You know, one, two here and there, but come on. Every box in the way. All right, here we go, guys. Hunter Barco to 25 orange. Nice Tamar Johnson. Jayce Jones. And Tres Gonzalez to 99. I think Gavin Cross. The rest of us do have two, or extra ones I should say two. Got a green one. Good to see new color. Ooh, back to back, green and yellow. Hopefully, hopefully we get extra ones in this one here, guys. Since that's two back to back right here, right there. Give me a third one. Give me a third one. Yes. All right, so we got an extra one here, guys. So maybe these last two boxes have one, but at least we made it up for the first box. It's just one missing. That's kinda normal. That does happen every once in a while, but at least this one has three. So hopefully the last two have three. Mid-Rough. And it's Marcella Mayer. Nice one at 15. Boston Reds House is Dale. And we have Ben Joyce to 99 for the Angels, and Willie Vasquez to 50. This box here. We've been getting a lot of colors. It's not really the best first or any first. So I'm hoping this one here has at least a nice one, but I'm not sure what was pulled in the first house, so I guess I have to see. Nice, you got a color there. Got a color there. So maybe this box is gonna be the same and makes up for the first two. All right, so I made up for both boxes, great. Now this was personal boxes, this would have sucked, but thankfully it's a group break. Reggie Crawford, we got a first here. It looks like a pitcher. Michael Kennedy to 20. And that is a fourth rounder there. Brooks Lee first. Cole Young first, that's a first rounder as well. Drew Gilbert, I believe it's also a first round pick. All right guys, here we go. Jacob Melton, second rounder. First rounder. Connor, it's 99. And Holson Montgomery who's also a good prospect there, that's a green. What do you guys, well we did end up getting the right amount of colors, kind of a little nervous there, but Jess was not the craziest color names. A lot of first rounders that pop out of here, so that was good. So there's your colors there. There's some first rounders there. Tamar Johnson, he did get an Eliza green as well early on, Kamar Rocker, so. Not terrible, terrible, but definitely could've been better. So I appreciate you guys, that was the last five boxes there. Jaspeyscasebrace.com.


This has got to be fake or this this isn't real. How is it possible that he's getting deported? Alfredo Figueroa was in disbelief when he learned that a number of veterans continued to be deported, so he decided to help by gathering basic needs and sending them to Tijuana, Mexico, where some now reside. His fellow veterans placed a bin at the Cal Veterans Services Center at Hearst Gym for donations. Because a lot of these veterans come here, they don't have any support, they don't have any family, they literally don't have anything with them. When they get deported, they literally bring just themselves and the shirt on their back. These veterans at Cal are on a mission. They say that those deported joined the armed forces as permanent residents. With the lack of support after being honorably discharged, some may get into trouble with the law. A 2011 study found that 4% of those enlisted in active duty military service are non-citizens. The liberal magazine Slate reports that by enlisting the citizenship process speeds up. Naturalization can happen then in just three years or less if during wartime. However, that's not the case for everyone. There's like a lot of variation both between branches and within branches with how different commanders and different levels of the unit will prioritize the naturalization process. In 2017, the LA Times reports that advocates for immigrants say there may be thousands of deported veterans across the globe. They made a decision to serve a country and possibly die for that country, but even a lot of American citizens aren't willing to make that sacrifice. So I think we can do more for them than deport them. Those this group have been in touch with in Mexico live in a three-story apartment. They hope to regularly send out supplies. In the past four years, they say the home base has seen close to 40 veterans. Their personal database indicates that there are at least 350 deported veterans around the world. I feel that it's our responsibility as veterans, you know, as you know, this group and other groups and other universities or just veterans in general to start advocating. At a larger level, these veterans ask for more transparency in the government. They say the ideal goal is to have everyone come home, but they recognize most of them won't. People are willing, able and have served honorably. There is an obligation on our part, you know, to take care of them after they have served. Community members have already started dropping off their items to the Cal Veterans Services Center, such as toothbrushes and canned goods. Their next mission is to the Dominican Republic this summer. Reporting for CalTV News, I'm Thomas Munglonga.


Hey everybody Dylan Schumacher citadel defense and we are back with another edition of a tactical book review Today's book is concrete jungle a green berets guide to urban survival by mr. Clay Martin I ran across this book because I actually have his second book prairie fire sitting in my office right now And that was the book that popped into my Twitter feed and I bought that I saw that was the part two This was the part one so me being a purist I bought the first I bought them both and I wanted to read part one before I read part two because I Can't skip ahead This is a book that is basically about surviving in an urban environment Given social unrest kind of an anarchy type scenario, you know be it like the Minneapolis riots We we just saw this year or the riots and a number of other cities, but And that's kind of the deal how are you how are you gonna prepare for and then survive in that and that's what the book's about It's what he goes through it is written in a very conversational style Even if you're not a reader if you don't like reading books and and you get lost and it's frustrating to you this book is Extremely accessible It's written in a very conversation style and it's like 215 pages So it's not big but as you can see like it doesn't take up a whole lot of the page It has these extra margins, which I always like because I like taking notes and books but Super readable super easy to read. I read it in two days. I mean I probably spent maybe Five or six actual hours of reading and that was with my kids You know trying to bother me in the middle of reading. So it's super accessible Doesn't take a lot to read it and it's worth the read He covers a couple things and it really reminds me of a Resist resistance to tyranny By Joseph Marino also a very good book that you should read in the sense that this book is kind of a primer He's not giving you detailed instruction manuals. He's not giving you, you know full-on tactical manuals It's just like a primer like hey, have you thought about how much food you should have well Here's how much you should think about having or water or weapons or whatever and it kind of walks you through What you need to think about he does have a chapter on knives, which I just found interesting because I don't know anything about knives So it could be total garbage, but I don't think it is So yeah, just it's just helpful and if you've never held a gun in your life. This book is still accessible to you I've shot some guns in the past, but this book will take you from absolutely nothing To to at least get you started on the path that thinking about it and what what you need and what you want to do So if you're concerned about that if you're like, hey This is gonna go bad and and I want to think about how to be prepared I don't even know where to start. Where do I start thinking about how to be prepared for it? I would recommend this book It'll get you at least started and start thinking about it get the wheels turning Give you some categories to think through and I think that's where the strength is I am very excited to read the second book Which is my my understanding we'll find out after I read it is is how to survive the civil war I think the tagline is something like that So I'm looking forward to reading the second one as far as I can tell these are both published at the same time This one I think has a 2020. Yep 2020 copyright on it So I think these might have been published at the same time just back-to-back as far as I can tell they're self-published Not any typos or errors that I came across which is rare in the self-publishing community So if that's the case kudos to you mr. Clay Martin and I think that's all I got Would recommend it worth the read again, even if you're not a reader this one is super accessible And if you just want some kind of ground-level thing of where do I start thinking how I start thinking in these categories? This book will do it One other thing I would like to say About this is one of the things that I think is a strength of the author here is that he stays in his lane I mean, he's been in special forces in the army for 20 years and He obviously knows a lot about a lot, but he does a good job of just saying hey in this area I'm not an expert even though I'm reading this and I'm thinking yeah But in that area you probably know a lot more than I do And so he you know stays in his lane in the sense that he's like I'm really good at the shooty shoot stuff And and I'm really good at like the tactic stuff and here's what I can help you with Here's this other stuff that you should think about but you know There are better people that write on it or know more about it. And so here's just kind of a quick primer So I appreciate that because not a lot of authors will do that right?  Clay Martin would be like because it's just that kind of conversational Chill style. He doesn't take himself super seriously He writes with a bit of humor, which yeah, I enjoy so if you're looking for a book to Say to give you categories to start to think in how to survive an urban environment when the anarchy comes to town I would recommend urban survival by clay. I would recommend concrete jungle by clay Martin to brave deeds and endure


proudly we hail New York City where the American stage begins here is another problem with the cast of outstanding players public service time has been made available by this station to bring you this story as proudly we hail the United States Army in this story over the river and through the wood proudly we hail the Miss Sartons of the United States Army who feed our countries fighting men and women wherever they are whatever they're doing and if humanly possible whenever they're hungry today you're rapidly expanding United States Army needs intelligent young men men with ability and ambition men intelligent enough to recognize the vital need for a strong arm defense men with ability enough to be trained in a necessary job men with ambition enough to secure the future for themselves and their loved ones does this description fit you can you qualify for full information on how you can fit in with the finest check with your nearest United States Army recruiting station team up with the army and you'd team up with success and now we present the first act of over the river and through the wood month is November the day is Thanksgiving the place is Korea I know because I'm here 264 other soldiers and Charlie company I can't tell you where here is by the Atlas but there ain't nobody in front of us except the enemy I can tell you the boys in their foxholes got off a tired waiting until just six minutes ago hey let's go down you got all day to eat have you waiting all day until you said you were fed when you picked up able companies food I was just a snack you want me to go back for more you've already been back twice lieutenant said to eat all we wanted yeah but he didn't say get sick plenty but they must have set up enough for two companies shrimps sage dressing cranberry sauce two kinds of potatoes two beds smoke not yet don't neglect the turkey I was coming to him him on our buck we ain't gonna get no fight over whether that bird was a him or a her I ate too much you ever have better took in your life yeah I never mm-hmm once when my old ladies old lady visited us okay but only once I don't say the army don't make mistakes buck you know that but how can it get a hot Thanksgiving dinner to a combat company two and a half miles north of nowhere at almost didn't you shouldn't have reminded me you know what I did all morning while I was waiting Rocky I dreamed up ways to torture Cabrera and cumbersome maybe it wasn't there for oh well I'm not rational when my mouth is watering they were three hours late with the food another three minutes in Charlie company would have suffered to unexpected casualties what do you think happened last cabber cumbersome I don't know cumbersome isn't around he got hurt or something yeah well I'm asked cab hey that's an idea out in combat you stupid where is it over near the food cans with Ainsley with Grandma Ainsley then you see him come up with Cab and Grant and the Jeep no I was too busy looking for a second judge where's grandma Ainsley doing at the front anyway hey everybody always said he liked soft jobs all I know is he's here I'll go get cab hey wait wait grandma and the turkey you know they remind me of a song over the river and yeah yeah now I got it you go get Cab if you want over the river and through the wood now grandma is capped by spy her off for the fun it's putting's done her off for the pumpkin pie I'm dumb her off for the pumpkin pie hi ya cab last time I heard that song last time I heard it was in a hosted street settled with her yeah well the last time I heard it was on a fishing boat off Martha's Vineyard yeah I ain't the musical type I never heard it before well we wanted to ask you cab is how come the chow was late yeah and what I wanted to ask you cab is how come you're so chummy with grandma all of a sudden I thought you hated his liver one at a time one at a time though I guess the answer to both questions is grandma I saved my life oh no it it all started at six o'clock this morning when Lieutenant Mackie called in me and cumbersome and told us we were the company food guy he signed as a jeep and sent us back to battalion headquarters the Charlie companies Thanksgiving dinner he could have made a speech on how important it was to get the food up safe and hot but I'll attend and smart enough to know we already knew cumbersome and I took off and we found out later and I wouldn't have believed it if you told me at the time that grandma Ainsley the battalion mess sergeant had been up an hour before us cookie yeah grandma any company guy'd shown up yet for the food not yet we got everything I've been telling you every minute on the minute I had let's check we already checked six times days Thanksgiving let's check again look grandma the turkey and sage dressing are in the ovens the shrimps and cranberry sauce and mixed green salad and olives and pickles are packed in the ice in the refrigerator the gravy and vegetables whipped potatoes candied sweets beans corn are in them kettles on the stoves you can lift the lids and count every bean if you're still worried the coffee's in the big cans the fruitcake and nuts and dates and candy on the tables how about the cigarettes right in front of your two packs for each man what's eating you grandma the enemy have been tough for two weeks you know that cookie you and I've got over a thousand men to feed most of them in the line American fighting men I want our fighting men to be fed that ain't all it's eating you know you wish you was in the line everything under control sergeant yes sir I just checked with sergeant classy there was a seventh check since Reveley major sevens a lucky number they say yeah break out an extra pack of cigarettes for each man at the front we did sir you mean you will no sir we already did well that's fast service I just told you to Clancy and I figured you'd want us to Clancy and you are getting to know me too well major black shouldn't the guides have gotten here by now I hardly think so grandma our things going major well how do things go in a war there's a no chance the enemy will break through is it you worry about the feeding grandma let me worry about the fight worry about the feeding didn't talk like that to me when I was a platoon sergeant here come a couple of guys grandma I'll check them out hi come back hi cabrera you come for Charlie company's food where's a mess sergeant or hasn't he arisen yet how many miles Cumberland isn't the mess sergeant supposed to be in the mess when fight men are hungry I'll cut it cabrera he's right out there talking to the able company guides now how many miles 265 Charlie company guides here for 265 grandma him 330 330 and containers on the double rascale that's your Jeep out front cumberland yeah put him in the Charlie company Jeep out front you till wait here a minute I'll fix you something thanks cookie that's nice of him fixes food while we wait okay you see what I see come on wow on a table just cigarettes just cigarettes the man says you wait okay don't do it you get all the free cigarettes you can smoke what are you talking about put them back cabrera hello grandma I said put them back you don't have to steal cigarettes in this man's army why grandma dear how your vise has changed I got a thousand miles to feed cabrera I'm only gonna tell you once more put them back better cab of course if you tell me to here thanks your food will be ready in a minute okay Charlie company guide your jeeps loaded you sure you didn't give us too much grandma Clancy can count I wouldn't want to deprive any real racialized soldiers of their Thanksgiving dinner I wouldn't let you get going now cabrera your buddies if anyone in your company admits he's a buddy of yours are hungry that's an order they get easy I don't feel like taking it easy to want the food to bounce out I forgot that's better look cab I'm your buddy so I can say it why do you get so mean sometimes fighting makes me mean you ain't mean at the front it's grandma easily makes you mean why does he have to sound so tough all the time like he thinks he's Jack Dempsey or Joe Lewis or something you sound tough most of the time yourself cab we're fighting soldiers they say grandma was a one-man gang in World War two I say so one cylinder blowhard in Korea I don't know I don't know what I think maybe he's tough because he's trying to do his job he sure turns everything upside down to help the boys at the front you have to admit that if you really want to help he'd be in a line outfit you just don't like him I don't like the idea of us getting shot at while he takes it easier as nice hot kitchen I'll sure admit that Sergeant Aisley reporting sir oh well in a minute grandma major black I 7 out of 1140 hours sir they should be reporting back any time everything happens to us and Dick Tracy grandma an ammo truck is late a mud mud or infiltration can't tell yet you know how the enemy sneaks back at the lines and sets up their nasty little roadblocks don't for gosh sakes sit down get everyone fed well a guide showed from all three companies I got them started back with the containers early Abel and Charlie companies cleared an hour ago Baker company came in late now that's the right flanker the pressure has been heaviest are you here on your usual mission of heroism major you've got to assign me to a combat unit oh is that an order are you know what I mean sir grandma how many times have you asked me for assignment to combat this week or this month all right then this week six times sir and how many times have I reminded you that at your age and with that bad leg of yours you're more valuable in the kitchen than at the front I can still whip any man on the base you can whip any man in the 8th Army except me of course that's not the point the point is that you've had enough combat to last three lifetimes you know what they're saying about me major they say I'm chicken they say you're chicken well that's what I'm gonna have to tell the general well I don't mind that too much but I know things that can help them from being hurt I can't run a kitchen like some old lady when good boys need help grandma you've been in the army for what 13 years you know as well as I did that a fighting man wants three things most of all in a family dry feet and decent food do I have to tell you grandma that it's a standing army order that every soldier no matter where he is gets at least one hot meal a day do I have to tell you that the Pentagon and heaven knows who else has been planning and shipping supplies and arranging refrigeration space for more than a year so that you could serve a hot Thanksgiving dinner today you're in charge of feeding a battalion including three front line companies that's more important than leading to platoons the child's already gone forward sir but you don't know that it's arrived some other unit may call on your facilities any hour your cooks and bakers need your leadership you sound like a morale lecture well sometimes your blind heroics make me feel like one I'm sorry grandma now get back to your kitchen and let me know if you need anything yes battalion headquarters sergeant easily speaking the captain stepped away from his desk for a minute lieutenant I just happened to be passing by your food hasn't arrived I sent it forward more than an hour ago yes a lieutenant we certainly will the dinners haven't arrived and the soldiers haven't arrived cabrera and cumberland must have run themselves into some trouble you are listening to the proudly we hail production over the river and through the wood and we will return to our second act in just one moment you know I've always found it to be true that a man with a good eye to the future makes a good soldier and that's why so many bright young men and women are joining the United States Army now for army life is an exciting career and there's plenty of room up at the top today American soldiers get the finest technical training in the world every man is a specialist a master at his job and the army ceased to it that every man is trained to do his job and what's more important to do it right because the army is growing so rapidly today's soldiers are being promoted fast oh you work hard sure but believe me the rewards are really well worth it right now the army needs healthy intelligent young men and women volunteers from 18 to 34 so if you've got what it takes then you think seriously about an army career stop in at your nearest United States Army recruiting station get all the facts about what the army has to offer you you are listening to proudly we hail and now we present the second act of over the river and through the wood while lieutenant Mackie was calling battalion headquarters to report that Charlie company's riflemen hadn't received their Thanksgiving dinners and we're getting married by the minute the reason was chattering on a hilltop just 500 yards in front of me there was an enemy machine gun unit that had sneaked back of our lines and set up on the jeeps rail it pinned cumberland and me down as we were jogging forward with the food you all right cab all right as a man can't be lying under a Jeep in a mud puddle yeah they were high again guess they can't reach us what do we do now I stay here with the food you make a run for help shouldn't we try and get the gun well there's only two of us come we could flank them and we got grenades but suppose I try doesn't come off I'm not scared I mean I mean I mean I'm scared but I'm not too scared to try but who gets the food forward if we don't get the gun you better tear back for help let's match for it anyway cab won't be good here if they rush the jeep I stay here you're bigger and make a better target I bet you wish tough old grandma easily was with us now what could suffer grandma you can't talk your way out of a spot like this now crawl come for some and stay low till you get beyond the turn on the trail stay low stay low come with some you got the idea now brand steady but slow must be somewhere along that trail we don't want to mess them pull it flat on the road brand for the carbine all right out there step out with your hands up that big side kick of Cabrera's that means we found him what happened coverlin grandma hi brand what you doing here grandma and I find out why you couldn't get the dinners forward enemy machine guns set up on the jeep trail and pinned us down anybody heard uh-huh at least I'm not and cab wasn't when I left him but climb in how far ahead is it walking 40 minutes pick it up a little brand all right what's so funny about having a buddy pinned under a jeep but ain't that excuse me grandma it's you you look like you're stuffed out to be the fat man of the party how many grenades you got on your dozen 13 I always like to start out with 13 you ain't supposed to be armed and coming forward like this are you grandma nobody told me not to I feel good you with us thanks maybe I'm too old to fight like the major says maybe even major's gonna be wrong you better forget I said major blacks right about one thing this man's army soldiers get fed last Thanksgiving the major himself delivered dinner to a mountain outpost that could only be reached by cable you mean why not cable don't you grandma ah I'm talking about transportation not communication only way to get anything to the outpost including man was in a basket run across by cable from another mountaintop I never heard about that whole army should have can you tell us I'll start anyway both of you keep your eyes open for Cabrera well the outpost was seven miles more battalion kitchen the major and a Korean bearer and I went up the first five miles by Jeep took us three and a half hours to give you some idea what the country was like you didn't say you were in the party well I'm saying it now then we climbed a 3,000 foot mountain with the food on the Koreans back he was some man he could carry a hundred pounds like you or I could carry an overnight pack but the top of the mountain there was this steel cable tramway I guess you call it running across the other mountain where our men were well the thing that ran across was a homemade basket shaped sort of like a mummy canes we got there late on a bright moon yeah that takes care of the food and there's still room for a man good come on grandma help me in let me go instead major not on your life but if they're reds on the other slope is this moonlight though they'll see you they'll be sitting duck for small arms fire well come on and help the duck sit down please major black no okay signal them grandma three flashes here I go thank you thank you good lord the major get back safely to grandma well that wasn't so bad we waited till the moon was hidden why didn't you wait it was hidden to send him over well he had the food with him then he said later the boys on that outpost wanted I liked him president didn't they thanks given sure your data howl grandma last year was a cable tramway and this year it's my Jeep are we getting close now hold it Brad cabs right around the bend grandma let's take a look this Jeep cab looks all right we'll make a run for him now wait the behind that bear tree on the rise oh yeah the dirt at the base plow too high now we run who'd you expect the Marines everybody all right me and Brad are Cabrera I'm healthy but I hold up so I noticed look not counting you who've been fed there are 263 men up there waiting for their child they're waiting while you play footsie under a Jeep they have a machine gun on the ridge the enemy wouldn't have a machine gun any place have you knocked it out we thought we shouldn't leave the food I said we should have left it let's cut it brands got only a carbine so he stays here with the food Cumberland's the biggest and I make the most noise all right that leaves Cabrera you will need to take a chance with me Cabrera I owe you something besides talk that's good talk all right Cumberland go back and work your way around to the guns left flank stay out of range but don't worry about noise I want them to know you're there when you get within a hundred yards no closer find yourself some cover where you can't be hit you got a watch yeah what to say 14 oh three hours good I have the same I'm giving you 17 minutes at 1420 make a commotion make all the noise and fuss you can but stay undercover you here okay Cumberland I'm all fellas we'll have to crawl out Cabrera so they'll think we're still here baby's waiting grandma okay baby let's crawl I stopped your limping I'll keep your eyes in front can't you take a break a minute we have a minute see him you handle grenade yeah when we hear Cumberland I throw you throw then we rush you can't rush then we rush don't tell the boys I passed out who passed out you got that enemy gun practically single-handed Cumberland all right see grandma you don't even remember ordering them back in the other Jeep do you there's only a flesh wound you said here we are hey we made it how you feel but you don't want to scare the enemy to death in order to keep on loaded in the men to come back for their dinners two at a time I helped grandma out of the Jeep it could hardly walk but he insisted on reporting to lieutenant and then he and I sat out can I get you some chow grandma let's watch your boys for a minute here come the first two now hey hey what's it look like to you Rocky looks like turkey what's it feel like feels like hot turkey oh it's a shame you can't believe what you see and feel at the front isn't it is a cranberry sauce fresh mm-hmm fresh and is the salad well seasoned yeah and the minced pie full of spice then cab cabrera is very lucky why lucky because if a single one of those conditions had not been met I would have drowned him in his helmet liner in ice cold coffee come on buck we ought to give the others a chance no no no just just one one taste for me Rocky oh now that's sage dressing hmm I haven't sweating this out for the past six hours yeah I'm common gang now we can get on with us here now war yeah just watch and then fill their plates make you feel as good as it does me it makes me feel good will you do me one favor what could burn next time I crack wise of our massages will you were drowned me in my helmet liner in scalding coffee ask anyone what they want most out of life and a great majority of the answers can be boiled down to just one word happiness well now happiness is a lot of different things to a lot of different people but basically you might say that it's the achievement of your goals to be happy is to be successful in whatever you do and in today's highly specialized world training is the key to success if you're a young man of service age you can get free training worth thousands of dollars by enrolling now in your United States Army's new reserve for you training program now under this plan you can enter the course of your choice and be trained in such interesting fields as x-ray operation photography automotive maintenance and communications and all their over 100 courses to choose from so for complete information on how you can benefit from this program you visit your local United States Army recruiting station this has been another program on proudly we hail present a transcribed in cooperation with this radio station proudly we hail is produced by the Recruiting Publicity Center for the United States Army and this is PFC Richard Hayes speaking and inviting you to tune in the same station next week for another interesting story on proudly we hail