This is theCUBE's team coverage. I'm your host, John Furrier, with my two analysts co-hosts here, Rob Streche, heading up theCUBE Collective Research and Dustin Kirkland, CUBE analyst contributor. Lisa Martin is here as well, and we've got the team, Rob Hove, Mark Albuson, the entire SiliconANGLE team on the floor, getting the stories. No stories too small for theCUBE. We're going to break it down here as the keynote analysis, day two segment. And also, we're also going to analyze, zoom out and look at the big picture relative to the cloud industry and some of the technologies that are folding into place for each of the hyperscalers, AWS, Azure, and Google. Google's doing great, we're day two. A lot of enthusiasm, Rob and Dustin. I got to say, I'm enthused. I'm converted over to Google Cloud in terms of my appreciation for their momentum. You know, when I see winning hands, I like to look at it and stare at the cards and go, you know, they're doing a good job, and I like how they're playing their cards with the cloud. I think they're smart. They got a lot more work to do. They're clearly number three in the marketplace, but they are hitting all the right notes, in my opinion. What's your take on the keynote analysis? This is about developers. It was an interesting keynote. They had to, in Google Flare, you never see Amazon do this, by the way. They do walkout songs, but you never see Amazon do a musical, Rob. Live performance, on stage, three live singers. There was a piano, there was a sousaphone. It was the real deal. There was a tuba, chief tuba player. I've never seen a chief tuba officer, chief tuba player, or whatever it was, but yeah, I thought it was interesting that they were leaning into the legacy, you know, legacy is bad kind of thing. I mean, I don't know how that's gonna play over with the people in the audience. With the developers, it definitely plays well, but when you start to look at it and go, having been in the insurance industry, and I had something that was running on NTFORM, we had no idea who had actually built the app, and you had to kind of still, we called those heritage apps, not legacy apps, so it'll be interesting to see how it plays. Let's explain what happened first. First, they opened the keynote with a musical live performance of artists, Googlers, I think, they were Googlers, I believe. Yeah, all of them, yeah, our former Googlers. Classic Google, a lot of color, and I love that in there, a lot of commentary, a lot of flair, a musical called Living in Legacy Land, where there was a singing and dancing around, legacy infrastructure, clever script, and then they weaved in the demos, but they also weaved in the lower stories, the lower of Google, kind of showing that they have chops. So legacy that flexing their muscle, Living in Legacy Land, again, that was the focus of the entire keynote, how to manage legacy environments, and the pivot was build your legacy. So, interesting theme, I kind of liked the positioning, I thought the musical was kind of cringe worthy, but okay, that's me, that's me, but I did like the approach. Well, if legacy is very relatable, and I think that was what's pretty incredible. Yesterday was all about here's what's next, here's what's in beta, here's what's just hit GA. Look, if you're a developer and have access to write something new from scratch, it's quite a blessing, it's quite freeing to start something from scratch. The truth is though, that in the enterprise, most developers aren't tasked with, here's a blank slate, product manager development team go build something new.  So there was something very relatable about this today's keynote theme. Yeah, I think it was relevant, and what they didn't really tie, at least in my mind effectively too, was the DevOps movement. They did bring SREs up on stage with the champions, they were SREs, they called them champion innovators. It wasn't clear if they were Google employees, or part of the community, like VMware has Vexperts, so it clearly had the stakeholders. But I liked how the DevOps angles tied in there, because if you think about DevOps, IT, remember the old stat rob, 70% of the dollars go to running the business, versus investing in. So operating IT used to be kind of a sunk cost. DevOps are essentially running things. So yeah. I think they got into it when they started doing the demo of Cloud Run and Cloud Deploy, and they got into the Dora metrics a little bit, and to your point, I think they could have gone deeper on that stuff, but I thought, again, to Dustin's point, you're not going to really have those opportunities to build net new apps that often. Yeah. When you can, it's great, but. It's refactoring, where maybe a piece of the app is being rebuilt. So I think that the demos, although they talked about legacy and converting legacy, didn't really show converting, they showed building new. And I think that was a miss, but I thought it was, I mean, the demos were good. The app sheet resonated with me, of all the things there, because I think there's instances where you need to put a front end on something that you have plumbing for. So if you have APIs, and it made me start to think about like, did I architect that right? Am I set up for that? So it kind of, there's an underlying question that you're asked, like, can I even do that? Like, okay, where's my, it's in reports, okay, they have that access to data. So do I have that API pipe? Yeah. What webhugs are they in place? How many times I went and built macros in Excel to go and do something, and this would have been so much easier. Well, this is a place where I think Google can really dominate the low code, no code, you know, minimal code. One of the cloud champions that was on stage, she introduced herself as a teacher. I got the impression she's not a Googler. She's, you know, sort of volunteering a community, a power user, but she brought a hell of a lot of expertise about a particular problem and then was able to draft an application with a handful of, you know, narrative voice prompts. I mean, it was scripted, of course, but, you know, it's got the wheels turning that like, this low code, no code environment, Google has built a ton of brilliant infrastructure around. Yeah, I mean, I thought the first day two keynote, I didn't really give it high marks, at least from a content perspective. I did like how they put that theme out there, legacy. I did like that. I think that's important. I think you had a good point that there's a lot of things that need to get fixed that people are working on. And that begs the question to our question yesterday. Was that a developer conversation? Or was that more of a DevOps conversation? I mean, there was some SRE in there for sure. John mentioned the lore. Of course, Google, like any company, has, you know, legends and lore and horror stories. And we were treated to a couple of those from Google, one in particular, one of the SREs responsible for helping identify and patch the log4j vulnerability back from December of 2021. She gave a pretty detailed play-by-play. You raised your hands that you remember where you were at that moment. I remember the very moment and exactly where I was. Log4j day, for sure. No, I think also in the lore where they talked about the ARP storm and how that really caused them to go out and build their own load balancing. I think it became a very interesting, I thought there was a dichotomy there about, hey, we couldn't get the vendor to be named later, to go and fix their load balancers. So we went out and built one in software. I think they're, you know, hitting on. That's a very Google response. By the way, I mean, there are a few companies in the world can say, you know, this cornerstone of technology is broken, so let's just rebuild it from scratch. But what they went into, and I kind of wrote it down into kind of how to develop faster, right? And they kind of had that theme for developers around plugability, open source and APIs, and reuse of extensibility layers. I thought to me, that was them going back to their roots. And you would know from being here, I mean, that to me was like motherhood and apple pie for Google, reaching out to developers and saying, and also to other people, bringing them in and saying, hey, the AI is going to help you do these three layers and keep up with that. I mean, again, they got into a lot of the security stuff, which I thought was interesting. To your point, I thought, you know, it was the same. She has ex-Google, what did you think of the keynote? So, I mean, I've been on that stage, or stages like that. I know what goes into the preparation. A lot of efforts put into selecting good speakers, internal, external. The rehearsals go on for weeks. There are people here that haven't slept, you know, for the last few nights. I saw one former colleague nodding off because I'm sure she's been working around the clock on this. So a lot of work goes in. There's a lot of prep. It's polished, it's live.  Stuff goes wrong. In general, you know, I thought the topic was relatable. I, for, you know, it was a little cheesy, but I enjoyed the effort that went into the musical performance. I wasn't, I'm not too hardcore on it, but, you know, I want to see more meat in the bone. I was hoping that I'd see much more stronger developer posture. Like, look it, here's some bang, bang up, new code, here's some AI, go. You know, it was a stretch with app, well, the app thing to say that's AI. I mean, I guess it's AI, but I think it's like chatbot. They went and tied it into Vertex and how they were able to do the image recognition and build the app that could, you know, go and say, hey, what, you know, describe what's here. I think that's a small chatbot like use of it, but it was interesting how they showed you that there was different things under the hood happening, even though it looked like it was all in the same interface. I thought to me, that's how you build a solution, and I thought that's one of two good strengths. I think my big takeaway was that that made me think, are you set up to do those things? Because I think they're showing a use case of dynamic building stuff, right? And I think the question is, are your data sets available? What's your architecture look like? And then this comes back down to the whole cloud versus, you know, selection. I mean, we were talking with John Truro from Montreal yesterday, and we had this discussion around, do you pick your platform? Like, are we getting at the point where it's like, Google does this, AWS does that, Microsoft does that, because at some point, when did they cross over and being an island? I mean, there's no multi-cloud talk here, you know why? Because it's Google Cloud, they don't want you to talk about multi-cloud. Because they don't, I mean, we talked about Red Hat, but I mean, for the most part, Amazon's not going to talk about multi-cloud and reinvent, and certainly Azure, I mean, they're like all in on open AI, so it's like, it just seems it's a weird time in the cloud game. Yeah, you know, I think part of the AI approach, and we talked about this yesterday, it's a great opportunity for Google to take advantage of. Google has so much of the data necessary to train the models, to initiate the models, now adding, you know, this garden of models right there, and then the user and developer productivity. One theme has been trying to do more with less, and we hear about that a lot, like hey, let the AI help you do more with less when a time we're downsizing and cutting. I think I'm actually looking forward to doing more with more, but those things, that work well, why do more with less? If that's working well, and you can multiply the productivity of those people with that, then put more people with more bots helping get that work done. I think, again, I felt a little differently on the demos. I thought the demos were, to your point, having been on a stage similar to that, those are really hard to do live, and the fact that they were flying without a net, I give them a lot of credit. I think there's only a couple little hiccups, but I think they were showing how to use the AI in interesting ways, and that was to me, and simply. Better than vaporware. Yeah, well, I'll tell you what, here's what I really wanna see, and it'll probably be next year before we're able to answer this question. So the idea that these code assistants, co-pilots, duet, Cody can generate a working demo is awesome. And as a former engineer, now product manager, the idea of taking some basic requirements and spitting out a prototype, a proof of concept, that I get. What I don't yet get is, is that gonna write the production code that builds the next Google search engine, that builds the next expense report SaaS. Can we take it all the way there? And I think we're gonna need six to 12 months of using it in anger. We gotta check it out, that's a great point. I mean, hey duet, solve my technical debt problem. Yeah. Boom. That's the holy grail. That was the piece that was missing for me in the demos is they talk about legacy land, and it's how do you get from legacy land to non-legacy land? If they had taken some old code and put it in there and then redone it, to your point, using it in anger, I think that to me is where this could be. Help me understand this code because there's so much legacy code that was written by people who are no longer with your company. So I played with Bard maybe six months ago with a partner. I've got some legacy code written in 1998 for dividing up the bills when you go to a restaurant. We used it for roommate splitting. This is ancient PHP in post-credit code. Venmo. No, no, no, no. This was years before that. But I thought about, you know, let me ask Bard in Vertex AI to port this forward. And the little stuff that got right, it helped me re-architect the database schema. But boy, getting into all of those nuances in corner cases that took years to get right, I have found myself needling around in new code that was working well enough. I think that's a great use case. And I think that's the one that's going to be the most exciting is that you train the code as a language model. I mean, they call it programming languages for a reason. So if it knows the code, it should be able to engineer the code. It's going to be very easy to see. And then how do you train that? What's good code? And so you got to kind of play with that. And you brought that up yesterday, but I said, get the good code or the good data. And you're like, actually the bad data is good too. Because that's what bad data is. Don't do that. That's right. I mean, we saw a bit about security vulnerabilities in the scanning in the demo. I think that's another great use case of, don't do, it's more than just trying to do more with less. Do more with more. If this solves a set of security problems, pour gasoline on that fire and let it run. Yeah, and to our discussion yesterday, the fact that when they were showing those vulnerabilities and also going into GKE enterprise and showing, hey, here's your security posture, your secure, secure software supply chain and getting into some of that and what's in the containers. I thought that was pretty interesting stuff. I didn't get enough of, okay, where is that running? Like if it's a SaaS delivered management station, what if I'm air gapped in where I'm running GKE enterprise or something like that? How does that run? There's still a lot of pieces that are missing that I didn't get out of the keynote and there was nothing on data. Once again, I was a little bit disappointed coming out of it that there's this whole gap between the infrastructure and the app, which is the data. And okay, they talked about how you can engineer, you can use the AI to go through and cycle through a Postgres database. Okay, well, that's great, but that really didn't get to, how do you better use the data that is underlying to AI? How do I connect this all together? Because it's not all going to live in Google. Well, the good news there is we've had some fantastic guests this week so far who've come and talked about some of those third-party solutions around data, data pipelines, data streaming. I can think of a couple just right off the top of my head. We've got security conversation coming on with Sunil Padi coming on and Mandian is mentioned too. They have their own event coming up. The queue will be there in DC for the Google Mandian Security Conference and we have the heavy hitters on the infrastructure site coming on, Sachin Gupta and Mark Lohmeier from Google Infrastructure, the new TPUs are coming on. So they got a lot going on, right? We're going to keep analyzing. We'll wrap up at the end of the day today. We'll look at the stack and we'll identify where the gaps are, we think they need to work on. But clearly, there's some things they got to work on. I mean, obviously they're not 100% there, but it's looking good, looking good. So day two keynote about developers. It really is about the use cases. Again, this is about the roadmap of Google. This is kind of where they're going. You can kind of see the 20 mile stair, if you will, and kind of what the direction is. You can see these things filling in and use case demos are very helpful, but they're putting it to work. They're not producing reference architectures. They're putting stuff out there and they're building. So again, Google thumbs up on keynote. Day one was smashing. I thought day two was obviously hard to beat day one. But guys, thanks for the analysis. All right, day two continues. As we roll into the afternoon of theCUBE here in Moscone for Google Cloud Next, this is theCUBE. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break.


Again, let me welcome everybody. Welcome to the Future Trends Forum. I'm really delighted to see you here today. We have a terrific guest and on a really, really important subject with a great book. I'm really looking forward to our conversation. We've been talking about anti-racism and racism for several years here in the forum. We've had a whole bunch of sessions. We've had great people, but we haven't had anybody quite as awesome as Dean and Professor Richard Redick. There's all kinds of reasons to be a big fan of him. One of them is that he has published a great book called Restorative Resistance in Higher Education. Here's my copy. If you look on the screen, the bottom left, you'll see a kind of tan-colored button, and that will take you to the page. You can grab a copy, which I strongly recommend. Another reason is that he is a great researcher and practitioner in actually doing and leading DEI on multiple places from Harvard University to University of Texas Austin. A third is if you follow the University of Texas Austin Eyes of Texas story. He was the leading actor in that, and there's an amazing chapter about that in that book, but also he has fantastic taste in music as you'll see in a minute. So without any further ado, let me just bring our wonderful guest up on stage. Oops, there we go. And there we go. Hello. Here I am. Great to see you. Good to see you, Brian. Good to be here. Where are you today? Where are you coming from? I am in Austin, Texas. I'm actually in my office. It's my lunch break and I'm just excited and thrilled. And as I was commenting in the chat, I'm really happy at 63 degrees Fahrenheit here today. So it's a nice sort of semi-overcast day here, but it works for us. So those of you who have snow right now, best of luck. You're a lot of help here. About 63 is lovely to be in Texas. That's why we live here for this moment. Just for this one moment. Yes, yes. And of course, I've been in Austin when it snowed, which is always fun to see what happens. Yeah, but we asked people to introduce themselves here with our own tradition, which is we asked people to explain or talk about what they're working on for the upcoming year. So what kind of projects, what kind of writing classes, etc. are coming up for you? And also, what topics are top of line for you? That's awesome question, Brian. So obviously, the publication of Restorative Resistance, the book was released in September.  But in the early part of the year, I'm doing sort of a book tour sorts. I'll be in in Cambridge, Mass. I'll be in New York City. I'll be in Washington, D.C. Talking about the book. So I'm excited about that. I don't. Fortunately, I do not. And I say this fortunately because life can be a blur. I just submit my grades for the semester. So I am not teaching in the spring semester. But I do teach a summer course in the UK. It's called exploring UK education. It's a study abroad one month class. And I spent much of my four minute years in the UK. So I actually like to go back home with a group of students, many of whom are first generation, many of whom are traveling for the first time outside of the state of Texas. And it is the most amazing experience because just as we go to Christchurch College, which for those of you who are Harry Potter fans is where they film the dining room scenes. And so to see my students literally freak out in that space and to be shoot out by the docents, like you need to leave. You've been here for 25 minutes. They can get out and just, you know, getting around and doing all the kinds of things in in in England in the summer is a lot of fun. We did it for a month. And that's a huge as an administrator. I have less personal contact with students. That's my highlight for the summer. So that's what I'm going to be doing. And then we start the machine again, and I'll be teaching my fall course, which is based on the podcast I do called Black Austin Matters. So lots of things going ahead and also the two teenagers at the house that kind of always have something going on. Well, I bet they do. I bet they do. Oh, my gosh.   It's a lot going on. Well, thank you for making time for us. I hope you can consider this to be a virtual part of your unfolding book tour. I think so. The friends, if you're new to the forum, I'm going to put a couple of questions to our guest, just basic questions to get the ball rolling. But what I'd like you to do is get ready to ask your own questions because the forum is all about you like soil and green. The forum is made out of people. And what we'd like to do is make sure that you can have a chance to ask your questions and to raise your topics. So as you listen to our wonderful guests, please think about what you'd like to ask. My first one, I did. Well, first of all, I'd like to ask if you could show everybody your shirt, just just to prove what I was saying about your musical taste. Yes, my class shirt London calls. See, the only band that matters. I told you, this is it. This is it. We're going to rock the Cosby tonight. The first question I wanted to ask is, I guess kind of not the heaviest one I wanted to ask. But I'm wondering about the role of mentoring.  And I'm wondering right now, in this time period, where we are so conflicted and so challenged, what advice would you give for all of us to either be a good mentor or a good mentee, especially when one is or when is working with a marginalized population? Wow, what a great question. And I just came off of a zoom about mentoring. So I'm very fresh on this. So what I often talk about it, and I derive most of my mentoring, my avatar in the mentoring world is khaki kran at Boston University. And I followed her work when I was very, very emergent as a graduate student. And so we talk about the panoply of developmental relationships. And so mentoring is kind of a one end of the spectrum, which is the sort of full package, but you've got the role modeling aspects, you've got the coaching and the sponsorship aspects, right? So one thing I think is super important is to realize, both for mentors and mentees, that we need to have a culture of developmental relationships all across. So maybe people don't have the capacity to mentor, but maybe you can be a sponsor to somebody, you can help somebody learn a skill or learn how to do something that's important in the field, or you can sort of be a role model and sort of share your story. I was recently at Loma Linda College of Pharmacy last summer. And I was talking to this amazing researcher there. And he has this amazing, you know, lab and grants and everything like that. And we started talking about his journey. And this is a guy who dropped out of college twice. What a story, right? And sharing that story, when you share stories like that, especially with young folks, especially with folks who feel marginalized and higher education, a lot of times the most innocuous thing you drop in the conversation. I'm a first gen college student. I was a Pell Grant recipient. Things like that that you think are just like, it's just part of my story. Somebody will say, you said something in your introduction on your story that resonates with me. And that's my story as well. And it's not always tied to identity. We've been thinking this. So I was in South Texas, the Rio Grande Valley recently, and I was talking to a group of students there. And, you know, these are Latino students, you know, different part of the country. And I had students come to me and say, you know, you said some things in your talk about your experience that connect to my experience. And that's why I think a lot of times for those who work in the academic spaces, we're, you know, very fancy titled and, you know, nice CVs. But we don't often talk about how we got there. We don't talk about a lot of times the hard parts of the experience. And a lot of times when students are trying to experience those kinds of things, they need to hear those stories. So I, you know, my thought is that it's being an open book, you know, sharing vulnerability. And I know we can't always be vulnerable, because we don't always feel safe in that ability. But I really encourage those of us who hold positions in the Academy, whether we are faculty members or staff members or administrators, to really model for our students what it means to be an authentic whole person. Because when we talk about, you know, I've struggled in certain parts of my life, or I've struggled, you know, in the position I have, you know, that really helps students say, I could do what you're talking about, because I feel those same things as well. Thank you. That personally, that that hits me very hard. I have a hard time doing that. I'm a very self abnegating person in class. And so I try to, but I should do that more. I should let them get see behind the beard, I guess. That's that's good advice. And Brian, you know, I think it does require a sense of intimacy connection. So do I tell my life story in front of, you know, hordes of folks all the time? Not always, but like in the classroom setting, where I've set a sense of connection and intimacy, it will come forth. And I'm reminded of my good friend, Tony Jack, this book, The Privilege Four, he talks about this, you know, the importance of just understanding like there's so many things happening in this context, that are hidden. And I always say, as a first generation college student, as a first generation professor, as a first generation administrator, I've still first done everything. So I still like, what are we talking about here? What's that thing you're talking about? Or what's that policy, you know, it's important to sort of share those things. And I think I look at this as a journey and an experience from me. And I hope that I can kind of share and the book is really about that the book is both autobiographical and research based as well, because I think it's important to understand that I'm still on a journey. I don't think I'm experts to speak up, but I've certainly somebody who's engaged in these issues currently. That's one of the pleasures of the book, I find. In fact, here, let me just fiddle with the screen a little bit here. I think that's one of the pleasures of the book is that you are a character. And it's great to read your journey and to learn about it. I was asking, in the chat, P.F. Anderson from the University of Michigan points out the human library project and says that they would love to see a human library experience within the Street True Transform community. That would be so cool. P.F., why don't you email me and we can see about setting that up. That would be a great session to do in 2024. Just send me a note. And I would love to think about that. The, I guess I have to ask a heavier question now, which is, and this is for what I'm about to say is for everybody because you know this all too well, Rich. I mean, we're living in a time of immense DEI pushback. You know, the state of Wisconsin, the legislature of Wisconsin is fighting bitterly with the University of Wisconsin system trying to delete its DEI programs. We've seen state after state, Florida, Iowa, Texas cramped out or clamped down on DEI in different ways.  And it looks likely that over the next 11 months, as the US presidential election heats up and various state elections heat up, that this may become even more of a charged and endangered topic. So I guess I'd like to ask, how would you advise people approach DEI in this incredibly fraught moment? How can we do this and not, you know, not get wiped out or heartbroken? And that's the last question you're going to ask today, because we're going to take the entire time to respond to that. Somebody else will come in. Yeah, Brian, it's it's that is a profound question. It's something that I am working through every single day. I mean, the interesting thing about this, of course, is that I am a person whose research agenda is in the diversity, equity and inclusion space.  Right? Your research is a problem, right? Your existence is a problem. But here's the thing I can also point to is that one of the things in the book I talk about is that I have been working in this space since I was an undergraduate student in the 1990s. And we have different names. You call it multicultural education, different sort of terminologies about how we talked about this work. And in that time, my good friend, Jeff Miland and Sylvia Tato, we're working in University of Michigan in the 1990s, building a research base about what does it mean to have diversity and inclusive spaces on campus? Like, what is the outcome for that? And there's a robust body of scholarship. I'm sure many people in the call know about this. That's been going on for, you know, back to Gordon Allport, right? It goes back a long way. So the idea that this is kind of a trend that people are sort of harping on. And I think we have to also acknowledge the fact that this is a politically charged moment where people are sort of taking things and saying, well, this is something I want to kind of run with, because I think it can get political capital out of it. The reality is, when I think about what my job as an educator is, which is to help maximize the human potential of every student I have. That is my job. My good friend, Julie Garcia, who is the former president of UT Brownsville, talks about being the first Mexican American woman president of the United States and going to talk to other people about what her job was. And one of the people she interviewed said, your job is to defend democracy. Okay, right? So if that's the charge, I think we have to find ways to ensure that we make sure our campuses are supportive spaces for communities from all walks of life. And, you know, frankly, University of Texas at Austin and other places I've worked, I look across the campus, well, it's empty now. They're all finished with exams. But I can just see these amazing stories of students who socioeconomically, gender identity, sexual orientation, military status, ability status, all these different aspects of their lives that have shaped them. Of course, it's intersecting, right? Right? Nobody's just one thing. And I'm like, what an opportunity to have this space that we support students and faculty and our staff members and our community members to understand these things. And so I think sometimes it's decoupling and sort of lowering the temperature, so to speak, because the reality is, I talk to people all the time and the book talks about this, like, you know, I'm scared to engage in these conversations. And I'm like, well, a lot of ways we've been sort of sanctioned to not have these conversations, right? To not talk about difference, not talk about things where equity and equity occur. But the reality is, how do we function as a democracy for not talking about these things? And we're not working together to engage with these issues. And one of the things is about finding the spaces and the ways to do that work. And it has to be done, I think, artfully, right? We're kind of in a moment where, and this moment is one of the most fraught moments in higher education because world events, things happening in our campuses, things happening in society and the world writ large. But I really think it's about this way of figuring out what is our common touch point in understanding. And I think most people who arrive in a college campus are curious, right? Curiosity about how the world works, you know, Brian, how you live the you'll experience the world, how I experience the world. Yeah. How do we start with that being our sort of guiding principle? Like everybody is here because they have curiosity. And then we have to build connections. I'm going to quote the work from the researchers in Michigan, finding community spaces where people feel I have both relationship with somebody. So now that I have a relationship with somebody, I can engage and ask questions. And I can also be supported in that process. I really believe in the sort of challenge support model where if you're in space is constantly where you feel affirmed and everything is easy, you're not getting enough challenge. But if you're in a space where you feel constantly under attack or under pressure, that's not good either. What's the balance? And so I think part of it is just, you know, a community agreement. When you come into this space of higher education, what we're trying to do is understand the world better. We're trying to really engage and sort of move to a space of addressing curiosity. And I think that's what I really want to have people think about. And, you know, also finding ways for everybody to engage, because one of the I think myths about DEI is that it's something that only underrepresented or minoritized folks engage with. And the reality is, if you're thinking about democracy and thinking about healthy society, we all have to be engaged in the conversation. It cannot just be a certain group. And, you know, thinking about intersectionality, you can think about the fact that we bring both spaces of privilege and advantage in places of oppression and also a lack of privilege. And so that's it, all of us. And so I think a lot of times it's coming to realize those pieces that are super important. And also I think, Brian, most importantly, is the sense of humility, right? I was very careful to state that my work in the space is not from a space of expertise. It's from deep engagement with the topics and the issues. So I think, given all the sort of limitations that may be coming forth from a lot of, you know, bodies of governance across the country, I think it's an issue of reframing and categorizing the work we do as essential to maintaining and supporting democracy. It doesn't mean that, of course, I think it also means that we can be critical friends about how the work is done, right?  What do you think about that? And I might not necessarily think it's the best approach, but that's part of being in a space of academic inquiry. We get to challenge things. We go through a peer review process. People tell us that's an interesting idea, needs development. That idea actually doesn't have much water. You know, you have to go through these processes.  And I think a lot of times people are surprised to hear me talk about, you know, maximizing human potential and say, actually, that is precisely what the work at DBI is doing. So we've got maximizing human potential, which should be the cause of higher education or civilization as a whole. We've got restoring democracy. We have building spaces for relationships in that kind of Vygotskyan way, right? Spaces that are neither too comfortable nor too challenging. Proxable zones of development. I love it. Exactly. We're talking about that a lot next month. And then and then we also have nurturing that precious flame of curiosity. This is this is terrific that that's a that's a great, great answer. Friends, if you if you have a chance to read the book, the well, this is all about this. But the fourth chapter addressing the privilege payoff speaks to a richest point about if if you feel that you have privilege, how to use it and and how to support it. And the end of chapter three has a has a great a great paragraph, which I'm really tempted to read out loud. It's that's the very marching orders kind of paragraph, which is which is great. Friends, I could ask questions of our of our guests all day. But this is a this is a form where your questions are central. Please feel free to use either the Q&A box. Again, that's the one on the bottom of the screen with a question mark on it, or hit the raised hand button if you like to join us on stage. Again, you know, we we run the risk that if you don't have facial hair, you might not feel welcome. But no, seriously, we're this is this is where we're welcoming all levels of her suiteness. And again, ask questions based on your own thinking about DEI, your own experience, your own work, or if you had a chance to read this book or into it or any of Professor Eddick's previous writings, or if you just want to respond to what he's been talking about. Please, again, the forum stands open for you. So and if you're if you'd like, I'll be in the chat box right now. So I'd be happy to share your thoughts. While people are thinking and fuming and going back and forth, I'm wondering, I've got to ask this, if you could update us on where the eyes of Texas story is now. So if if if I could really quickly for people who haven't followed the story, this is the famous fight song for UT Austin football team. And it's been around for a century and we know a lot more about it because of our guest sport. There was a controversy starting in 2020 2021 about whether or not the song was racist, or if it should be stopped, a commission was formed, created by the president. And our guest was the head of this and he led a deep, extensive, really thoughtful, extensively documented research project into the song's history with the kind of nuance and depth that I rarely see in academia ever. And he published this in full public eye, getting all kinds of attention, questions, abuse. It's a marvelous story. And as far as I knew, it stopped. The story ended once the report came out and the dust settled. But but you're telling me that the eyes of Texas are still on you? Is that what's happening? Oh, well, well, well done, Brian. That's a great pun. Yeah. So yeah, what a I sort of there's a chapter in the book that kind of talks about the experience of doing that work, not about the actual work itself, because we there's actually eyes of texas.utexas.edu. There's actually a website that has the report and archival information and so on and so forth. And we did that work and I want to credit the 25 people I worked with in the committee during a pandemic on zoom doing this work, including my good friend, Don Carlton, who is the director of the Briscoe Center for American History and, you know, digitizing all these materials during the pandemic. So what an incredible opportunity and also an opportunity to work with people across generations. So we had among our group, people who graduate from university in the 1960s, to present students, people who were student athletes, people who played in the band, just different identities and walks of life. So I actually find that we don't often have conversations across generations.  And so we had to really find spaces to and I think everybody would tell you ultimately, everybody learned something they did not know in the research process. And importantly, the committee itself, I think, found connections because we were talking a lot of times these are conversations you have with people who you have agreement with. And then when you meet somebody who has this agreement, you kind of say, well, I don't want to talk to you about this, but we actually were doing that. And a lot of people were like, I'm kind of in a mixed space. But what we found, O'Brien, is that honestly, an artifact that basically is the exact, almost the exact same age as the university itself, its history actually sort of tells the history of the institution and the state of Texas. And it's, you know, an environment that was, you know, postbellum, neo Confederate, right, is the origin of this place. And so the evolution of these things and historian H.W. Brands, Bill Brands, committee member that we had was often reminding us of sort of context and history and sort of the the ability for something that is living like a song to sort of go through iterations versus a building or a statue that is what it is, right. And then what ends up happening, Brian, is that you kind of see it in everything. You see how we really grapple with the inability to sort of analyze these things and confront some of the difficult things. Toni Morrison has a great quote about America's need for reinvention and not saying actually, there are some things we can dive into. And I will tell you, one of the things that really was helpful to me is when I was doing this work is that the amazing historian and Gordon Reed wrote on Jim Tink. And as a fellow Texan and a historian, she talks about what is it like to be again, a double consciousness, sort of a Du Boisian kind of experience to be part of this experience, but also realize that experience mythologizes and leaves out other pieces. So that was actually a really amazing thing. So what has happened since is that we've had a number of sort of different sort of, I would say, thoughts about what should happen. And certainly one of the things that was really a blessing to be in the committees of the president made a decision, the song will remain the schools all the water. So we weren't charged with you're going to do a report. And what the report says is going to lead to its either reinforcement or removal. And then we don't want that responsibility. But we were able to inform the discussion and student organizations, alumni groups, folks are, you know, sort of engaged in the conversation. And I'm really proud of the fact that we do have that website and the report.  It's a pretty commonly used phrase. And the particular juncture of how the phrase came to be part of the university's history and its performance are the parts that really become sort of a flashpoint. But then I think when you read and you engage with the whole story, it becomes incredibly interesting to see, you know, one thing I think a lot of Texans don't know, you might have noticed either is that the song's been to the moon, Alan being the third man to walk on the moon, graduate from University of Texas and took a scroll and a silk pinker chief that had the song on it. So it's been to the moon. You know, and so that we find a lot of times that the story itself is an interesting story. And it's a story that contains things I think a lot of Tory and things I think people would say that's not the greatest thing of life. But you know, one thing that I think is really interesting to think about is this idea of, you know, reclamation in a group came and said you can't reclaim something that's tainted from its origins. But I was thinking about Jimmy Hendrix playing the Star-Spangled Banner would stop. Or Whitney Houston singing the Star-Spangled Banner, Mary Ann Anderson, Mary Ann Anderson singing America the Beautiful, like all these moments were something that was either not really part of how it was originated shifts the meaning shifts the context in a way. And so I think of it that way. But I think it's my lot in life to discuss this forever. And there are times I get tired of talking about it. But there's times where I'm like, I'm really glad to engage it because I think such an interesting issue. And I actually think a lot of times I kind of admonish people. I hope you get to deal with a campus issue on this level, because as you said, it sort of started off as a campus specific issue, very much inspired by activism from student athletes, but became something that was actually ESPN, the New York Times, Texas Monthly became interested in. And of course, media engagement is interesting, because a lot of times there's much more to a story you want to tell, but they want to take, you know, let's just get give me like a 20 second excerpt of that. So the best conversations I've had, Brian, or when people said, you know, I read the report, and I sat with it, and I'm conflicted. I'm like, I think it's probably what would end up happening if you actually did read the report, you probably would end up in that space. And what does it ultimately mean? It ultimately means that you get to decide in place and context, and you get to think about what it means. It doesn't mean that there is a right or wrong way to feel about it. Well, I'm sorry if you're if you're condemned to an eternity of, but what you just said, just for me embodies the report that kind of the kind of depth and richness and nuance. It's not a it's not a simple thing. I love your take on the not appropriation to repurposing and replaying replaying content. In the chat, P.F. Anderson has some has some really good thoughts about this. We have some questions that have come in more than a few questions. They've just been piling in like mad. And I want to just let's give a run at a couple of these here. This is a sure from Rod Friedman who asks what might be the most effective ways to use campus climate surveys with respect to DEI issues? What are suggestions for types of questions to ask and how best to use results of such surveys? That's a great question. So, you know, again, some people can see it. Yeah, so my experience at university here, we did a climate survey and that's based on a number of surveys. So coach the collaborative on higher education careers, you know, has a campus survey. There's the CRU survey. There's lots of surveys out there that are accessible and get some of these points. But sometimes having a specific survey for your institutional context, right? And so what are the things like I said is like, you know, learning to ask a question in a certain way, we have to acknowledge the fact that if you ask a question about DEI specifically, you get some very charged responses because of the sort of the lightning rod status it has now. But questions that sort of ask about curiosity, you know, how, you know, do you wish to have more engagement and conversations across identities, right? Those kinds of things. And also, frankly, I think it's interesting to think about what are we actually trying to accomplish as an end? I think a lot of times higher education is charged with solving problems that society hasn't solved, right? And so going through an evolution of figuring out the answers to questions is often messy. As scholars, we know that, you know, I'm reminded of what we went through during the pandemic. And when we had recommendations to do certain things, and then that changed over time. And people were like, why are you lying to us? Those of us in the scholarly space understand that's the evolution of knowledge. You learn new things, we make changes. And so I think also kind of labeling it that way. What I talked to students, when I talked to students of all sort of political identities, and frankly, I don't always know their identities, because I don't ask that question. I get the sense that they are here because they think that the world is an interesting place, and they want to know more about people in the world. And I think if we start from that space of understanding, that's what we get to do at universities. Regrettably, a lot of spaces outside of universities don't have that same, you know, and I remind my students a lot of times, like, this is a four year window where perhaps you get to disrupt some of the pathways you've been on. So a lot of my students will say I'm from a certain part of the state or a certain city. I've never met people from rural East Texas. And I've never met people from New Jersey or from Indonesia, right? All these things can happen for the first time. And if you get sort of hooked on that, as I did, I'm like, I really like being in spaces where people are different. I'm a military kid. I'm living around, you know, 12 different schools and from high school. I love the idea of being around people who are different and learning about them. But I also want to have a sense of support. So to me, those questions should really center on things like sense of belonging and connection. How am I connected to this institutional space? And then what are the opportunities for me to build a sense of connection and belonging? It's a very important course to ask. Because a lot of times we just assume it's going to happen. You just put people together, they're going to figure it out. I don't think that's necessarily always true. People tend to sometimes convulcanize and go to spaces where they feel more comfortable. But I've often used the challenge support model to say, you know, we're spaces where you feel support. You should have those. Where are spaces you feel challenged? I remember going to a fraternity house, I'm not going to name the fraternity, but one of my students invited me to meet these fraternity brothers. And I said to the students there, I said, you know, this is a space of support and connection for you all clearly, right? And I said, some of you have the ability in being spaces like this fairly frequently. If you don't put yourself in spaces where you are not in the majority numerically or in power senses, then you are missing the opportunity to build empathy, right? And then then you become a person who is disconnected from another experience. And then you start speaking in ways and othering people in very, I think, problematic ways versus saying, it's temporary. But I went to a space where I was not the dominant group. And I understand about the feeling because sometimes I've often taught and reminded people, it's not always a hostile situation. But the sense of like, I'm just different here. Or there's not many people like me in this space, at least initially. And a lot of times when you sit in those spaces and you engage, you get to learn, actually, we do have commonalities. It's not typically apparent. But if you don't have those opportunities, and similarly, if you're a person who feels constantly on the margins, you need to find spaces where you feel supported and connected as well. And I think that's the exciting thing about the potential of a college campus, and especially to answer the question of survey can really get to the bottom of that. But I also would say this. So surveys are super important tools. I think focus groups are really important to a qualitative research. So I'm going to speak up for having focus groups and bringing groups of students or faculty or staff together, community members and saying, what is it like and bringing you know, homophilist groups together where you've got black women together talking, but also then groups that are racially and socio culturally diverse, perhaps. So I think I'm probably entering a little bit, but I definitely think surveys knowing that there's a base of surveys out there coach I mentioned, sir, I mentioned, but also bespoke, custom made surveys for your campus climate in particular. Well, first of all, run, who is a Dean in College of Science at Purdue University, Fort Wayne. Thank you for that really, really good question. And Rich, thank you for that, forgive the expression, very rich answer. There's that's a that's a very practical question and it plugs into a lot of a lot of different things. Thank you. Thank you both. And friends, if you're new to the forum, that's an example of a Q&A question. And we have some more coming up right now for our good friend, P.F. Anderson in Ann Arbor, Michigan, comes this question here. How do we foster both cross movement solidarity, intersectionality and listening collaboration across cultural and cognitive bound? Oops, sorry. Sorry, I cut that out to him across cultural and cognitive boundaries, but still foster critical thinking, assessment and academia. So there's a lot I'm going to put this up again for everyone to see. I guess I need to see that question again. So yeah, so for P.F.'s question, I think it is about questing, right? Like, what are we trying to accomplish in the end? And certainly one of the things that's particularly challenging. I was recently on campus and we had a speaker. You might have heard this person Christopher Rufo, right, and he was on our campus. And I went to go hear him speak. I wanted to hear him speak directly and engage with an audience. And I was actually, you know, surprised to hear, I think, people who perhaps they're ideologically in a place that I'm not engaged with the speaker and say, well, you know, I'm not really feeling that the arguments are making the most convincing arguments, right? People were sort of coming to the space in a critical mindset. And, you know, there's a way of decoupling ad hominems and all the things that make people uncomfortable in the spaces and actually engaging with we have differences of opinion. And I think the important thing to realize is that even we think about engaging in issues that talk about the importance and the value of having different perspectives and different people in a space, there's lots of space for us to think about how that should work best. And, you know, I don't think it requires. I think one of the mistakes that's being made, especially from people who have decided to make this a cultural work issue, is that it's all this way. I hear descriptions of the work and the research I do that don't match what I actually do. And I also know that there are people who engage in the work that I do and the topic areas I work on that do it in a different way, right? And some people, you know, they're definitely more challenging spaces to operate in.  And so we all have different approaches to this. So what we should be doing is engaging in those conversations and saying, if we agree that the pursuit of education and part of that is being in spaces where we are curious to learn about each other, we believe that's kind of where we start from. How do we create opportunities and spaces for that learning to occur? And how do we set ground rules in place? And this is going to sound very simplistic.  Maybe that's the wrong approach. Maybe the approach should be, let's figure out what we want to accomplish in our conversation. And if you want to vent and you just want to say what you want to say, then if we agree to that, then that by all means do that. But maybe you want to be in a space where the goal is actually to understand why somebody has come to the conclusions they've come to, versus I want to convince you that my perspective is the correct one. And I'm going to suggest that that can happen over time. But a lot of times we just jump into a foray and we don't really think about what we're trying to accomplish in the whole thing. We walk away feeling unsatisfied and frustrated because we didn't get what we wanted because we never actually had an agreement about what we wanted to accomplish. And I think that actually is a really critical point. If you can agree before you start engaging in disagreements, you've already shown there's a connection and a value that you both share. We want to get to this point in the conversation. And also the fact that it's okay to walk away from a conversation without closure, right? It's very unlikely in an hour and a seminar and 15 weeks in a semester, you're going to, well, we got that fixed, you know, no, you're going to probably be in a place of dissonance, like, Oh, I'm partly here and I'm partly there.  I'm so much comfortable with the dissonance in the sense that I'm it's familiar. But a lot of folks aren't. And I think we have to sort of challenge people to, you know, come to a place where dissonance is something that you sort of appreciate as part of the condition. Doesn't mean you were a relativist, doesn't mean you just kind of go with, you know, the flow, but it does mean sometimes things aren't going to get resolved. And like I said, maybe it's over a lifetime you get to a point where you realize, you know, I have these feelings in this context, but the context can change. I can feel different. That's okay. First of all, P. F. Anderson, that's a great question. I admire how much you got in there so elegantly and and rich. That's a that's a fantastic question, but actually answer with so many great pieces of advice, especially leaving things open, which is where we're without closure, which is where we'll probably end this, this hour. Most likely there's a question that comes in for another person that really builds on that really precisely actually. This goes back to your earlier point about curiosity. This is from Chris Jones. And Chris asks, how do we find that touched on that curiosity in the MAGA and QAnon communities? Hmm. Well, let me give an example of this and it's not exactly parallel, but a friend of mine from undergraduate, he and I politically not seeing eye to eye, but liked each other, actually like each other. Like, I think you're smart. I think you're funny. I think you have some bad ideas, but I like you. And we would pass each other, you know, articles and books and read comment on it and that kind of thing. And a couple of years ago, he calls me up and says, Hey, Rich, it's wondering if you're available on a certain date to have a conversation with some friends of mine. And I'm like, Oh, well, you know, yeah, I'm a I'm a scholar. I have no problem talking to anybody. Absolutely. And he's not really being clear about who these people are. So at some point I ask him like, who is this group you're talking to? Yeah. And the group is a political party that I'm not part of. And he is the chairperson of this political party. And he's like, I just think people need to be need to hear some perspectives that maybe are outside of what they usually hear. And he kind of said, look, you know, just kind of keep close to the, you know, just talk about what's historically and blah, blah. And I'm like, and I thought about it for a minute. I'm like, you know, that doesn't sound a good idea. How people are going to how people in my camp going to feel about me doing this first of all, that's why do I personally feel a sense of connection and protection in that space? And then what's going to happen in the space? Well, two things happened that surprised me. The first thing is that somebody tried to de-platform me, which I'm like, what a cool CV line to have de-platform. It didn't work. They created this sort of conspiracy theory that I was a plant. I'm like, well, I think if you look at my scholarship, it's going to be pretty clear who I am. But I went to the space and we had a discourse and we had a dialogue and I talked about the facts and I actually found most people understood and engaged and said, I see that point. Now, I give you all this data and all these sort of perspectives. What do we do next? That's where the differences come up. But the fact that that group welcomed me and respected me and let me speak, I said there's a place for us to engage. And so, you know, I think the problem is that, you know, I like for people, but this is actually true and I find this to be the case. When I talk to people, and usually in modes like this, we're talking about something that we don't often talk about. So I've given you permission to discuss this issue. People want to tell the story. They want to talk about how they came up, their engagement in diverse spaces, and they are at a certain place. So that's actually where I want to start. I mean, I don't want to start with a label that sort of puts you in a certain category because maybe there's more to it than that. And it's hard. And I also think in the book, I talk about the idea of restorative resistance. You don't do this work without putting your mask on first. That's the most important thing. If you know that's not something you're ready to do, or it's going to trigger you in some ways, you don't have to do it that way. But there's all kinds of stripes and ways to engage. And again, it's about ground rules. What are we trying to accomplish? If somebody from a political ideologist different than mine says, I want to try to understand how you see the world. I'm always happy to engage with that. Right. And I think the other thing that's really important is to also understand that, you know, people have the ability to change how they see and understand the world, right? So I don't think people are necessarily locked into things. And this is a very, I live in the state of Texas. So guess what? I know a lot of people are engaged with a lot of people who have very different perspectives than I do. But again, it's about, well, where do we find a space of connection? And then I can reframe the concerns I have. So when I talk about diversity, equity inclusion, I often talk about our place as a competitor in the global marketplace, because I have traveled.  So that's one reason why people might be concerned. Or my university, we're very proud of the fact that we are a world-class university and very good at football. So PF, I know we might run into you guys at some point in this college football playoff. We'll see. But one of the things we always talk about is as a global competitor, it's our lifeblood to be engaged with different people in different parts of the world, different identities. We can't do our work otherwise. And there are examples throughout history, Alan Turing, of people who, you know, we lost, we lost so much because those people were not able to bring their full authentic selves to the work, right? So I actually think that that's the engagement part in learning to reframe the conversation. So maybe I'm not necessarily talking about this the same way I'm talking to somebody who is my same political, you know, avenue, you know, I just have to learn to talk about this differently. And ultimately, I think I haven't met people who said to me, you know what, I'm not curious about the world, you know, do it like I do it. I'm sure people exist, but I think most people are like, I am curious about the world, but maybe the pace is upsetting to me, or maybe that particular format is problematic to me, but I don't necessarily hear people saying things like, you know, I'm turned off by that engagement altogether. Well, thank you. That's an inspiring answer. And to a really, really great question. Thank you, Chris, for that question. We have we're coming close to the end of time, or the end of our hour, rather, not the heat of the universe. And I want to make sure that we get as many questions in as possible. There's a question from Katie Evans that she wanted me to ask. She says, I'm curious about strategies for DEI organizations for DEI organizational change. From my research and experience, successful change is often limited to programs, offices, individual people are groups. So I'm wondering if you want to tackle that one. It's a great question, Kate. So I think it's about sort of thinking structurally. So I think one thing that is critical in this conversation is, first of all, to engage a broad coalition of folks, both in the institutional context and beyond it. So one of the greatest drivers for DEI is industry, right? It's very important higher education. We want our students to get jobs. Look, I'm a classical liberal arts, you know, knowledge for knowledge sake. But there's also an imperative that this is a expenditure that people make and they want to have outcomes that are. So industry is telling us we need people who, you know, I'll give an example. I can't remember his name now. John Brennan came to this campus many years ago and talked about from the from the CIA, former CIA, MSNBC. He came to campus and expressly talked about the state of the world and how the State Department needed people who understood different cultures, especially the Middle East is critical, critical need. And, you know, it was a weird kind of like, wait a minute, that's not what I would not make that connection normally. But I think about also the Fisher case in 2014, the University of Texas, the Fisher versus University of Texas case that we have these amethyst groups, the Fortune 100, the US military saying we look at universities to produce graduates who can work in a diverse world, who understand and reframe things from different perspectives, you know, because we're like our national security depends on right. It's telling that in the most recent Supreme Court case, the SFFA versus Harvard case, there is a exception for the name for the service academies. Because the military has said we need to be able to have people lead organizations in our in our structure that are not simply based on a cut score. We need other criteria. That's pretty powerful. And a lot of times it's a strange bedfellow, right? A lot of people who think that diversity, equity inclusion matters would not go to the military for support. But it's a really telling issue about how important the framing is, right? That I think looking at other structures and we can actually leverage institutions outside of higher education to help us in that work. To say the US military needs this, you know, industry needs this. And I know people say, well, Rich, that's too much industry talk, you know, you're neoliberal. I get it, right? You can't win. Right. You can't win. But I do think if you truly believe that it's advantageous and better for us as a society to have more voices and to have more people in the spaces, you look for, you know, direct, I would call it interest convergence. Where do we find a common point of agreement? And we might not have a lot of great beyond that, but simply having that experience is super important. So I think structurally, it's about really thinking about the university as a part of community, a community that connects to postgraduate outcomes that connects to what's happening in our community. My city of Austin Texas has a very long and very problematic history when it comes to racial inequity. So that should be part of what drives us to do the work we do in our institutional space. Well, again, that's that's a fantastic answer. And I, Katie, thank you for the great question.  Unfortunately, we are at the very end of our hour and we have to wrap things up. We had a couple of other questions left and Rich, I'll send them to you. So if you want to please do friends in the chat really quickly, there's a couple of requests for the chat transcript. Let me know in the chat if you don't want me to do that or if you want me to not use your words, what we'll do is we'll anonymize it to their typical pattern. But just let me know in the chat. And there you have a lot of fans, Rich, you can see there in the chat. My last question to ask you actually is, how do we keep up with you? How do we find out about your work and projects? Is Twitter slash X? Is that the best way or is it? Yeah, yeah. So I'm at Dr. Rich Reddick on X or Twitter or what's called. I'm not doing that much of it anymore. So I need to get better at that. LinkedIn is a good place for me. Richard Reddick, you know, UT Austin, I pop up pretty quickly. And as I said earlier, I podcast, I do a podcast with MPR called Black Austin Matters. And I have actually been told by people who don't live in Austin that they find it very interesting. So my co-host, Lisa B. Thompson is another person that I do this podcast. And then we just talk to Black Austinites about all kinds of things. So community leaders, barbers, people who work in the package industry, you know, it's not like just the luminaries, it's all kinds of folks. And of course, the book for story of resistance is at Harvard at Press, it's at Amazon. And I'm really excited to engage. I will say this, I had somebody read the book and said, I want to engage with this issue. I was like, I'll get back to you. And he got upset because I was able to reach out to him immediately. And I'm like, give me time, because I do want to engage with these ideas. But I do think it's about building a coalition of folks who are interested in our work. And I've just had a blast here, Brian. So thank you so much for this. My pleasure. It's it's absolutely. And in the chat, by the way, Mark Wilson just shared a link to Black Austrian Matters. Thank you. So well, we will definitely keep an eye on you. I'm sorry, I can't resist. But what we'll we'd love to have you come back later on as as your I would love to come back. So please and thank you once again for being a fantastic guest. Take care and be safe and keep doing this great work. Thank you so much. Friends don't leave just yet. Let me just point out where things are headed. And thank you again for the awesome discussion and questions. If you'd like to keep talking about all these issues about how to do DEI and all the different dimensions that Dr. Redick has outlined, please keep talking on the social world. You can see here my handles on Twitter, Bastadon threads, Blue Sky and of course the blog. Just use the hashtag FTTE. If you'd like to look into our previous sessions on all kinds of issues around race and justice, just go to tinyurl.com slash FTF archive. If you want to look ahead to our upcoming sessions, we have community gathering next week, an AI scenario the week after that. Sessions on supporting mental health and campus, AI and college writing in 100 years of ed tech and still more. If you'd like to see the session, just go to form that future of education.us. Thank you all again for being a fantastic, fantastic group today. I've really, really enjoyed and learned a lot from this discussion. Everybody please keep up with the great work. If you're in the northern hemisphere, please stay warm depending on where you are. I hope you all get a chance to earn some well-deserved rest. Take care, everybody. Be safe and sound. And we'll see you next time online. Bye-bye.


Let's get over to our members to Tim or as we do each and every Thursday at 20 past the hour And you can reach Tim every trading day folks at odd Dash oracle.com. That's odd dash oracle.com Tim. Oh, you hit it out of the park man Hey, thanks for having me on again running out. I think you were five charts and actually I want to look at the the The weekly gdx chart first And Anyhow this this chart goes back to like 2010 and I what I did And the bottom I'll describe the indicators. This is a weekly chart in the bottom I showed this chart before on this show. Yeah, the bottom chart is the gdx up down volume percent And that's a cumulative I took the cumulative of that chart on the weekly time frame, okay the next next chart up is the gdx advanced decline percent and I took the cumulative of that and Basically since 2023 It kind of went sideways. It did but when it closes above the mid Bollinger band It's usually a buy signal and when it closes below it's usually a sell signal kind of so what I'm trying to do is catch The trend here. Yes, and if you notice previous signals, they work out pretty well It was once those two indicators are below the Bollinger bands a good sell signal a lot of times But sometimes you get in these markets that are kind of up and down up and down up and down And I circled the last one that happened that was in like 2016 we kind of went up went back down. I say I got going to the upside Then that ran into a cell signal in in late 2020 late 2020 or January 2021 It gave a pretty good cell signal even though the market on gdx went sideways Internally the market You know there's the gold or the gold sox in gdx went right to the floor, right? Is this pretty much measures? the I guess the acceleration to the downside of most color both socks did in that time frame from the cell signal 2021 until basically January of 2023 You know 90 I don't know what exact percent it was but majority the gold sox went through the floor. Yes And and that's using a good sign Once you find the next low right because everything's been destroyed I mean is sure they're not gonna go down anymore. So it's kind of a good deal. So now we're getting that You know since basically January You know we got up we got down we got up and right now of the weekly cumulative I Advanced decline is Above the blow it's on it's a little bit above the mid-bullinger band Which is on the buy but on the bottom there the up down volume is still below But the Vans decline is really the market. I mean if the motor socks are going up and down I don't care what up point down down volume says because you got more stocks going up Then you're getting the bull market, right anyhow, we've been kind of flipping sideways here And mostly signals I Timed those signals in the past mostly signals when they do occur. They're about a year and a half two-year signal And in particular Tim, you know I'm sorry in particular to because we went sideways for three years This should be a you know a longer time frame, right the long ego sideways or the long base out, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah, if you go sideways for a month You know, you don't expect a rally to last a year, right? But you go sideways for a year you can expect a rally to last a year or maybe even longer Yes, so it's all about base building here, right and and that's what's kind of happening here So I think an important signal is going on here. I don't think it's just going to be a Well, we're having a rally right now I think the last possibly in October but in general I think we're gonna start something a little bit bigger similar probably I don't know like 2019 or 2016 type rally Yeah, and I think they're going to be real meaningful because of what's been going on here with this chart So let's look to the next chart. Okay and the next chart is Gdx advanced the bottom window is Gdx up-down volume Yep percent and it's a 50-day moving average And I screwed around with these different moving averages and tried different combinations of the up-down volume and advanced client indicators And they seem to work best over You know why I could think of this chart or these type of indicators won't go back to 2010 So I couldn't go back 50 years, but going back, you know what 12 years that's right That's because the Gdx has only been in place since 2010 right which is cool, right? Yeah, but anyhow, so you know the bottom window is the Seems to work the best anyhow, when you get the 50-day average of the up-down volume percent below minus 20 You're you're gonna go sideways or up the down is over, you know So everybody hit the market hard, you know all the cell and it's done So here's gonna go sideways a lot of times it does build a base or it's going to reverse start going up and So I'm thinking If you notice that indicator has been going up. I don't have the exact date here, but it looks like Well, I think it gave it a June June bicycle mid-June bicycle Yes, I'll have the exact date there putting out it at a bottom in June has turned up since it's been going up So it's now it's flipped to The short-term indicator and this is the same indicators, but on an 18-day average, okay, and The blue area It's noted when both indicators or you know the blue area is when both indicators are above Minus 10 and when it's below minus 10, that's when it's pink. I see and so The minus 10 it seems to be that the numbers not zero, but minus 10, right? So we flipped above actually the last show I think we talked about this indicator We did and I told you what turned up and turned back down, right? I'm thinking you know what to start hanging around that minus 10 area It started is going to go up because it just really doesn't stay there too long It either makes its mind up going up or going back down Well last Thursday, you know it turned down right I think the day later it turned back up and now it's staying up as long as this indicator stays above Minus 10 again, you know consolidate and go back and test that you look back in December, you know of last year, you know We've kind of got to that minus 10 level a couple of different times the state above it and the rally continues So long as this indicator stays above minus 10 The rally should continue. I also want to note that these alley turn bullish July 7th that runs into October 7th. So yeah, I'm thinking That adds to the I guess the bullishness of this rally And how high will go don't know I think we'll least break above the previous highs which is up around 36 I think we may even go higher. I don't know but even though when this indicator just turned down say later this year because it's more or less a Monthly I see I hear your music Folks we're just gonna take a quick break Tim's gonna be right back with us We have the now they're running this market man We have the Dow industrials up 69 and Aziz up 226 S&P's are up 37.  You can reach Tim folks every trading day at or d dash oracle or CLE Com that's or dash oracle dot com right now. We're talking about the gdx. Okay, Tim. We're ready Right remember I don't remember this back in April If you look at let's look at the chart first but back in April if you notice the The bottom window is the at 18 day average of them down a volume and reached over 40 and the next one up Which is the But the rather advanced decline 18 day average advanced client is in the bottom window which reached over 40 in April there Looks like pretty much April 1st. I see that yeah window up Yeah, and the next window up is the 18 day average up down volume Which we try which also reached over 40 back in look like a but you know April 1st, you know, maybe give or take But I said on we were talking I said that you think I went back in history with back 2010 And when that happens you both those indicators get over 40 a surge pattern happened Or right after that the market kind of peaked and Solidated since then now we were back on a buy signal or a search patterns really leads powerful rallies Similar to the one we had like 2019 and 2016 so I'm thinking this one we're in right now Since the other the other two did search patterns And they really had powerful rallies. I think this one probably will too So I'm thinking we're going to break above 30, you know the previous highs of 36 and probably get somewhere in the 40s on Gdx, I'm thinking 40 44 45 up in that range and Start out that there's a lot of good stuff, which makes sense 40 45 is the high of 2020 Say it again 45 4578 it's the high of 2020 Okay, yeah, $45 is the high of the we're gonna take a leaf a good shot at that right which is sweet No, I'm with it right. Yeah Yeah, so I'm thinking with I guess the stars are aligned on a on a bigger time frame or immediate term prime frame and Especially on a short term time frame, right? So the this current rallies is it will probably see some sort of high in October You'll see another consolation the consolation I think instead of the market getting the crap beat out of it, which is already have if you look at that first chart I showed you, you know that's 2021 January the market really got the crap beat out of it. Yes, we're done I think going down we got a base building period going on right now on the bigger time frames on on this weekly Gdx cumulative chart So I think we're building cause here So I think next you know like one and a half years It's gonna be those stocks are gonna be pretty much in favor So and I don't know if you saw this today yet, but this dollar is getting absolutely destroyed Tim the dollar The dollar index broke out its lows of a monster consolidation, you know, it already broke par and This is the DXY so and three days The DXY kind of went from like 103 to 99 and it looks like the next move looks like it's gonna be down to 89 So, you know, that's that the stars are there with us also Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. I don't follow the dollar You know to me. I'm always I come a simpleton. I try to keep as simple as I can. I'm with you I get it so but yeah, there's a lot of things affecting that but The whole thing here is we got really advanced decline. We got up down blowing matching Yes, kind of all three time frames. So it should be a really a I'm hoping that you know Next year year and a half be a fun period But if you ever look at the bigger big time frames of golden stocks are cyclical Right go up for a couple three years. Yeah, they come right back down again Right go up a couple three years and they come right back down again. So, you know So wherever this next cell signal is, you know on on the bigger time frames You bear pay attention because I think of you know, they all come back out yet again But now I get that quote folks that quote that Tim just said because Tim I totally agree I've said it many times and you know, it's so sad to me Tim is that there's so many gold Bugs, I mean we trade gold. Okay, and there's nothing wrong with a gold bug But you got to sell because the bottom line is that there's a lot of money when these things go up But they are cyclical and they go back down period. There's no doubt about it That that's what makes them so much fun But if you don't sell it is no fun, man, you know because you know Yeah, you had all this money in your account and they don't sell and it's like, okay, man And then all of a sudden it's down to the lower price again. So Wow, yeah, but the thing about gold sox too, I mean when they run They they they don't you know, they do 10 20 30 40 50 times Yes, and I remember bgl when I first my big hit back in yeah I don't know 2000 I bought that thing at a quarter went to 16 dollars. I know man Oh, so I sold before yeah, I can get six but I did buy it at around a quarter 28 27 Oh, yeah, we did I think I got out of 32 cents. I mean remember we had bg o that's when CD That's when quarter lane was actually a good one to CD that they blew their brains out But yeah, we I think we get there that that was that was pretty intense man. There's no doubt Yeah, there's 10 so it's why I'm saying here when they run they run right and so but they don't run forever They don't they don't that's it's not like an apple Then I you know you're only gonna make so much money in the gold market But you're gonna make it very quick folks. That's that's the point here Okay, so let's go to the next shot. All right Yeah, next year. This is kind of a warning shot over the valve here I guess okay, but this this chart is the second window up from the bottom is just a 10-day average of the Arms index or trend t r.i.m. Okay. Yeah Shaded that area between 90 and a 90 and 80s a 10-day average so every time This indicator got to minus 90 or lower I drew a red line And so there's a lot of red lines going all the way back to looks like about mid 2019 So it's kind of a short-term indicator, but it does give pretty good signals So all those red lines usually at a minimum usually market just stalls and sometimes they they pick out major highs And so yesterday we're at a point nine today point nine five But we're kind of in an area where it's it's it can get Dangerous, you know point nine This is a minimum So it's do you you get cell signals off? It's not really it just tells you where you are in the market It gets tricky. Yeah. No, I'm with you. I got it. I trust me. I got it Yeah, yeah, so Let's look to the next year. Okay So, you know, so you got a warning sign there. Okay, this chart is actually it can it can Whoops, I did the wrong shirt This is the wrong time, didn't you? No, actually I did. This is right. This is right. I like I kind of added to it I'm not sure why I sent you but this this chart is a chart that I Really pick out highs and okay. Yeah, just Tim. Just hold that thought for a second. We got another quick break We'll come right back. That's that's that's a good tease folks Okay, because it's gonna be the top-picking chart. This this is a Tim or Tom O'Brien We do appreciate your growling a problem with us out here We have the now industrials right now trading up 73 Nasdaq's up to 29 S&P's up 38. We'll come right back Welcome back folks a doubt down just shows up 85 Nasdaq's up to 35 S&P's are up 40 we're talking about Tim I mean, it's the Tim or it can reach Tim every trading day at odd dash oracle comm We are talking now the S&P. Okay, Tim. I got this shot up, right Did I think you over another chart that's Tommy and sense Jacob. Oh, that's you did Okay, I'm put that one up. No, we'll get it. Yep. Absolutely one second Did you send it to me to or just them? Yeah, I sent it to all three of you. Okay. Cool. One second Is it the um, okay once I got out to more Sorry one second That's right. That's all right. Let's see the one I have up here is top-picking weekly S&P with the VIX Yeah, with the SP X be a VIX Higher high you can pull it when you out. Did you get it? Yeah, I think I have it up That's what I yeah, that's what I get up S&P higher highs and SPX VIX ratio, right? Right, right. Okay. The bottom window is a VIX anything below 17 yes, I have it in trending mode. Okay, and and so far, you know today when I blew this chart up Type this chart out the 1329 That remains bullish But what I really want for it is the next chart up from the bottom this a second window up from the bottom Yes, which is it the SPX VIX ratio, right and so the VIX really kind of gives you a warning That a top may be showing up. Okay, the VIX starts going up and the SP years The SPX is both going up. That's usually a bad sign and Right now over the last couple of weeks The S&P's has made higher highs and also that ratio has made higher highs Had that ratio made lower highs that would be the time there it to possibly Sell your position or looking even at your short position. Okay, this is great to know So right now and that's that's the ratio I'm waiting for trust me because let me tell you something. It's really hard for me to buy this market But I've been following this thing man. So it's a trip up at these levels, right? It's like man, oh man I you know, but the bottom line is that this so this thing is still higher the ratio is still higher, right? Yeah, right. Yeah higher.  I mean maybe you know normally when these highs occur Nobody believes you anyhow. I know I know and it takes takes, you know, it takes guts It's you know step in front of a train. Hopefully it's going to stop before it hits you Seriously, so you gotta, you know, wait for these signals to occur and You know, nothing's perfect, but there's two indicators here that suggest this market still can move higher It'll change all of a sudden Right But I don't you know, I think this week safe next week is option expiration week which normally means bully So we was waiting to see but as said right now, you know, I've been long for a while Yeah, and at the moment, I don't see a reason to sell that position. So Um, you know, sir, the season alley turns berries, uh, july 27th. I think it runs into october 27th So I think we'll still have kind of a rough summer But the gold issues will probably really be outperforming You know the s&p, so that's probably the place to be And the equity markets, you know, we could see I don't know what type of decline Or it may be just a sideways market. We'll have to wait and see but right now remains bullish Yeah, and you know, it's amazing tim is that the actually when we were talking on the phone too But to let the the you know listeners know what happens is that the fed meeting folks is july 26th And the rebalance inside the ndx 100 is july 27th So it's ironic that that lines up with Maybe the beginning of a you know a bearish of at least well lines up with a a bearish cycle Let's put it this way, you know, so yeah, but guess what it's only july 13th right now, man We could be up another 100 s&p points before that Yeah, yeah, we said we don't know so but you know you play the numbers and stuff and so this is what this game's about Yeah and uh so Yeah, this is pretty cool, man. I I get it. So the middle of that big retracement week the weekly s&p Oh, I got it too. It's the weekly s&p. That's what you're looking at too, right? Right. Yeah, this is the weekly. So I traded with the daily Stuff and you know You know, this is not in book. That's the trouble. You have to go figure this stuff out yourself Right, right, which is so cool. Right. There's a lot of different stuff and And uh, you know trends your friends stuff and you know and so you had to I started playing around with vixx vixx had a lot of information in it It's just trouble trying to find out how to get it out of it, you know, right? So Uh, but you know, you don't really want to get too bearish here until that vixx starts rising Yes, and I don't know when that's going to come but Evidently the smart money thinks it can go higher and that's keeping the vixx down. So We'll wait until you know, they decide that we're probably near some sort of a high. So it's It's uh, you know to look back in history here, you know every time that thing was, you know, where it is right now The market really in generally just stayed higher. Yes, right at the end and That ratio that vixx starts going up and that ratio starts going down And I thought last week when that ratio we had a little minor consolidation And the spx vixx ratio did turn down Which I uh noted I think on our last discussion I'm thinking well, this could be it Well, it turns out mark once new high and also that ratio went to new highs, right? So I'm thinking well, that wasn't it, you know, it's wild tim. So check this out folks. And I remember this so well July 14th of 1998. Okay We were on the air you and I Was on the air I used to have a home down in Menempshire harbor Okay, and I was doing the program if you ever saw jaws folks. Okay. I was out on the deck Doing the program live And that's when the market had the asian contagion And I remember it so well because so picture it what I had to do I packed up my stuff I had a boston whale jumped in the whaler Uh Went over to Falmouth getting my car and came all the way back because that was the beginning Of the downtrend from july 14th going all the way to october And then member in october that's when we were on the air And then you said to me I gotta get off the air because I gotta buy this market because that's that's when alan greenspan And uh rubin came on the air and took interest rates down by two Two 200 basis points at two percent at three o'clock in the afternoon So i'll never forget july 14. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, I remember that because uh, it was it was about half hour before the close I think we were talking and right and you had some other guy on there too Yeah, we had we had mark and we had pita. There's three of us. There was three of us on there. We were trading lives.  I don't know what you call those things. That's right. You can really see very well with them Right, and I was trying to put the orders and we were talking up thinking Yeah, I could hang up here because I was buying call options right right right trying to get in there And and actually that was the low that was the low. I think that was the low And then mark never turned back. No never did man Well, listen, man tim it's always a pleasure, man And uh, we'll talk to you next week. Okay All right, sounds good. Have a great one, man. Have a safe one Don't forget folks. You can get a hold of them at or or dash oracle.com. Stay right there folks. Come right back