Hey everybody today we're debating atheism versus Islam which is best for humankind and we are starting right now with Nadir's opening statement thanks so much for being with us Nadir the floor is all yours thank you um so it's good meeting you Randolph and I'll be telling you today why I believe Islam is the best for mankind there's going to be five main reasons in fact let me share my desktop here real quick the first one just getting right into it is because Islam has done a tremendous amount for for mankind and the one thing I'd like to the first thing I have to start talking about is how Islam started a scientific revolution so basically the Muhammad laid the foundations for what is known as a scientific revolution and and and established what is known as the Islamic golden age and so according to the historians and and again you know I'll go very quickly through my slide I'll ask you guys just to hit pause on your YouTube video just so you can have all my references so what is this golden age of Islam which was spawned by Islam a golden which was spawned spawned by the Quran and Prophet Muhammad this was a flowering of knowledge and intellect that spread throughout Europe and greatly influenced both medical and practical education and I was quoting from the Federation of American Societies for experimental biology and medieval history.net goes on all Western advances in civil engineering mathematics and chemistry and medicine and astronomy were founded upon the medieval sciences of Islam so and then the next reference here talks about how modern mathematics emerge from the lost libraries of Islam and so what what did it what brought about this great scientific revolution this was the teachings of the holy Quran and what Muhammad established so Islam has a very good track record of bringing good to mankind but it doesn't stop there the second point I'd like to bring up is Muslims have the highest level of life satisfaction as you read from the study over here this is quoting from the daily mail Muslims have the highest level of satisfaction and basically it trumps all belief systems now I would be very interested to see what atheism does how does atheism improve mankind I believe if we were to press random he would not be able to find anything and you know one thing I also want to make a distinction on there's a distinction between what is secularism and atheism secularism is an umbrella term which embodies many people there's eight there's Muslims who are secular there's Christians who are secular and Jews in fact majority of Jews are secular as well so that doesn't really tell us anything about atheism so this is the second point which I would like to bring up that they have the highest level of satisfaction and a feeling of oneness that trumps Christians Buddhists yogis as the study suggests let's look at the third reason Muslims are the most charitable and most likely to volunteer based upon the following study which we see inside on Yahoo news in the conversation it says over here the Muslims gave more to charity than other Americans not only that but it also said they were also more likely to volunteer from from the study so here we see that Islam has brought about a great amount of good to this world and even something which you can measure and you can see today so I'd be very interested to see how does atheism change people's life the belief that there is no god is there any way that they could even compete with us let's look at the third reason actually let me go to the fourth reason here is Islam is a powerful rehabilitating force in the prison system so basically this is what they study done by many different researchers and this was the conclusion of their study right over here it says our research shows that Muslim prisoners are more likely to choose a practice Islam for reasons of piety emotional coping and good company these largely largely sincere motives for choosing to follow Islam impact in a significant and positive knock on way on prisoners attitudes to rehabilitation in terms of their reconnection with work education and and and an intention to avoid future crime does atheism in any way rehabilitate people in fact you know just from my own personal experience as you could all all all over America first of all you will find that there are uh uh chapels Islamic chapel or many many people have converted to Islam and it has changed their life for the good let's let's keep reading uh let's keep reading the study over here I said the element of conversion or to uh I'm sorry the elements of conversion to or within Islam as a rejection of materialism often reflected in an identity shift of the prisoner this is what's important here sloughing off the previous life of crime which had been driven by excessive desire for material gain so as I was saying from my personal experience I've also worked a little bit in the prison in the prison ministry and I've seen many people who have changed their life for the better uh because of Islam uh let's keep going over here and so this is basically an article from the St. Louis American finding Islam in the prisons this is how former prisoners are changing their life again it says the conversion from Christianity to Islam is a forceful phenomenon that seems to have a very a positive impact on the lives of many behind bars and has helped ex-prisoners stay out of prison with an estimated 40,000 inmates converting to Islam each year Islamic teachings and lifestyles and um and alter lifestyle alterations have made prisons a center space for Islam in America so this is also important many of these people the conversion from Christianity to Islam this is a this is really what is a major impact here and this is what you are going to find is no religion is going to be able to bring about this type of good this much amount of good other than Islam and then finally um where to go to the next point over here and Islam succeeds where other belief systems fail okay so there's a verse in the Quran which actually condemns alcohol now many people condemn alcohol there's also other religions which condemn alcohol but Islam succeeds where others fail to lower the rates of alcohol related problems such as crime drunk driving and feel alcohol syndrome mass shooting so telling us okay well Islam condemns alcohol therefore it's true that's not my argument my argument is um other belief systems do condemn out some some of the other belief systems actually do condemn alcohol but they fail to really make an impact on society and humanity like Islam does Islam is the only one which does so as we can see in this documentation so let's let's take a look at the first impact Muslim this is basically a study done on something known as fetal alcohol syndrome and this is basically a disease which happens inside the you know when the woman drinks expecting mother drinks alcohol it could harm the fetus and it could cause cases of retardation of violence and children so what they discovered was Muslim women are 50 times lower than the global average to give a fetal alcohol child so yeah true maybe one out of 10 people can say yeah I think he should not drink alcohol at all but very few people I mean Islam is the only religion which can really produce these type of results and so in the next study which was done on children's fetal alcohol syndrome again all my references are right there on the screen for you this was basically posted in the national library of medicine one of the crime exclusion criterias were observing Muslim women whose religious practices prohibited alcohol consumption and going back to the previous study notice that they each one is citing the Islamic faith which promotes the accidents of alcohol so 50 times less likely than the global average so so so let's look at not only that but let's look at alcohol and crime it is an estimated 36% of crimes committed in in America is is alcohol induced and then so let's talk about how much good Islam is not only saving children from fetal alcohol syndrome but helping reduce crime and alcohol they say is a factor in 40% of crimes in the next in the next study over here and the list goes on so in conclusion look at this Islam started a fantastic scientific revolution which all of humanity has benefited Muslims have the highest level of satisfaction among all people Muslims are more charitable and more likely to volunteer they are the highest rate of charity and we see how it's a powerful rehabilitating force in the prisons Islam succeeds where others fail in terms of reducing the rate of fetal alcohol syndrome and crime in general now some people in closing some people may try to associate Islam with terrorism or look at all this terrorism stuff that has nothing to do with Islam and that definitely can be debated tonight and I will prove that as we have this discussion and I like so the question I'll have for Randolph how does atheism in any way can compete with Islam go ahead Randolph thank you very much Nadir for that opening statement and want to let you know folks if it's your first time here at modern day debate don't forget to hit that subscribe button as we have many more juicy debates coming up for example at the bottom right of your screen that's just one example of upcoming debates that are going to be as I mentioned quite juicy so I want to say though whether you be atheist Muslim Christian you name it we appreciate you being here and with that thanks so much Randolph the floor is all yours thank you Nadir thank you James thank you to everybody for tuning in I I suppose we will be discussing some of these issues that you raised in your opening statement in the next section of this debate I do have an opening statement ready so I will start with this freedom that's what this is all about this intrinsic characteristic of atheism leaves people with personal sovereignty because there are no requirements to conform to anything ideological or otherwise it is foundational for all of humankind even prior to the formations of societies with freedom as its fundamental value members of a society can thrive in so many ways and especially including creatively through art music writing scientific and technological endeavor and invention debates like this one and other free exchanges of ideas plus so much more humankind in my opinion flourishes or it seems to me anyway that it does because we tend to progress more when we're not confined by arbitrary restrictions Islam on the other hand takes submission as its central theme it's in the name and like many other religions demands conformity over a free hand Islam controls your way of living for example how you eat and when you fast how you sleep who you can talk with who your friends are who you support in disputes and whatnot do you prefer to live in a society where everyone has the freedom to make up their own minds on things like this on their own lives it seems to me that most people don't enjoy working from within the confines of micromanagement I believe that when people can live life to its fullest in accordance with their needs and desires in harmonious ways that this is actually better for society and ultimately for humankind while the individual though and that's an easy one to answer to control the masses if laws and regulations are fair and just then legal limitations tend to be regarded as reasonable if laws and regulations are unfair and unjust then legal limitations can be inconveniences or at best and dangerously oppressive at worst such as when a punishment doesn't fit the crime we hear this saying a lot enter John Rawls a philosopher contemporary philosopher in his 1971 book a theory of justice presented an idea known as the veil of ignorance which promotes a philosophy of ethics through empathy as an intellectual tool for lawmakers to draft fair and just laws in a manner that embraces the needs of people in the most inclusive of ways in an Islamic society the veil of ignorance would lead to contravening the sharia requirements that are centered around a 14 year old religious doctrine this inflexibility is not in line with a goal of higher quality living because laws must be adapted to support people with the minimum amount of impositions and disruptions to people's lives or in other words maximum freedoms in an atheistic society the veil of ignorance can flourish without such limitations which in turn supports a higher quality of living for everyone hence higher quality of living must be a goal unencumbered that's freely available to all thank you James thank you Nadir the pleasure is all mine Randolph and very excited to jump into the open dialogue section do want to mention folks we are absolutely thrilled check out the bottom right of your screen another huge debate coming up at our upcoming conference modern day debate debate con which is happening in Dallas Texas January 15th and 16th in particular Elijah Schaefer and destiny collide on whether or not religion and government can overlap and so if you haven't already hit that subscribe button and with that thank you very much Randolph and Nadir the floor is all yours for open dialogue well i think you might be on mute Nadir let me uh i'm sorry about that thank you Randolph yeah uh yeah i just wanted to kind of comment on what you've presented it seems like what you have presented is more opinion based and it is not founded upon real research now please gap me just gonna give you one statistic which i which i presented to you it says Muslims have the highest life satisfaction than any group of people okay so you said okay well Islam can't do that because it's so restrictive which i don't think is correct but this is proving you wrong this is showing you that it actually works you know and and so when you see something like i mean i guess you've said basically that this atheism produces happiness and the freedom of that atheism gives do you have any kind of documentation or whether it appear review journals that can substantiate that happy that atheism is really producing this great happiness and and all the stuff oh i'm not promoting a bias toward happiness the happiness is one aspect of living a high quality life but happiness isn't forever not everybody wants to be happy all the time this is of course there are times when we need to go through different emotions and different feelings in our life because if all we have is happiness then we can end up becoming neurotic and that that is a concern for me so i don't want to present the bias now atheism doesn't have a bias toward any particular emotion emotion this is up to the individual now in society as i see other people who are not feeling they're feeling kind of down i'll show concern for my fellow person my fellow man my fellow woman and uh be uh wondering if there's something i can do to help them i may not have the answer for them and that's okay um the fact that there's somebody out there to provide support is important this is the empathy aspect of it and this seems to come naturally with people i don't think we need a religion to tell us to care about one another because this seems to come up automatically with a lot of people and you're right yes these are my opinions based on what i've seen in in life now i do question the statistics that muslims are happier than everybody else because the questions that come up for me is how do you measure happiness because what can make one person happy and feeling satisfied may not make another person feel happy well let me let me just kind of jump in and talk about this so i think you are conceding that a lot of your beliefs and justifications for um you being an atheist is is subjective and based upon personal experience and personal interpretation but as far as you come in tonight and really presenting any kind of statistics or any kind of figures that's just not going to happen you don't have that for us tonight it would you pretty much assume that's correct or i'm i'm not conceding that that's the case this is a fact what you stated okay so no concession yeah and regarding the study if you have any questions regarding the the data which i've presented to you definitely are welcome to produce a peer-reviewed journal some submit it to the scientific community with your findings and your studies and get a peer reviewed and once it goes through the proper channels and the scientific community looks at your research and says okay muslims are not the most happiest people based on randall's research i would be more than happy to retract my statement so get it peer reviewed and but i i think when i'm listening to you there is a lot of you know well this is how it appeals to me personally but you know that's a very subjective way of really looking at it and and you know i've shown you like for example let me just share you another you know if you want to take a look at it there's countries there's a website called worldpopulationreview.com you you cited something from the daily mail and that's fine the they're they're listing the top seven happiest countries in the world and finland is number one now finland is not known as a muslim majority country nor is denmark which scored second place switzerland third place norway fourth place third and fifth place and an honorable mention for butan so these countries aren't known for being predominantly having a demographic makeup of muslims right correct so these countries um which are generally known to be secular and you did point out a correct distinction between secularism and atheism earlier um that is we can get into that later the um the thing is there um nobody's being required to be part of a particular religion if we take a look at countries like Saudi Arabia um people are required to be part of religion the part of part of islam and there are other countries too and like i believe indonesia does that they force people to choose a religion um and they have a list of five you don't think atheists do that you don't think atheists in china force you to uh be atheists you're asking about individual atheists i'm talking about atheism in general okay because i can tell you that when it comes to forcing people uh to be a particular religion or belief system uh nobody's worse than atheists at least historically speaking i mean we can look at china today and we can see how they uh put our putting people you're atheist brothers who are putting people in concentration camps right uh and okay well i think those those concentration camps are real and i mean we could just also look at pol pot we can look at Stalin we can look at so many very much utilizing christianity he was utilizing religion well let me share let me show you something was the next thing you were going to mention pol pot after stalin lenin lenin okay um i i want to show you something here real quick um if i may um so here's an article this is from history.com look what it says over here communism begins where atheism begins do you see that this was a quote from the communist manifesto now see we're kind of in the same boat here where you could look at what the evil that atheists have done in this world and are continually doing um and you can say i that i just agree with that and i would say the same thing if i see the eight see we're in the same boat you have bad ugly apples and so do we but i'm not denying yeah i'm not that's why i i called you out when you're talking about specific atheists just a moment ago because uh yeah the my observation of people in the world is that there are really well here's what here's a quote for Stalin about him being an atheist you i'll just finish um they're just they will um there are really nice people there are really horrible people and then there's the majority in between that it's all in a spectrum and my finding in dealing with different people over the years interacting with different people over the years is that uh it's pretty much the same makeup in both the theist and atheist demographic mm-hmm okay well i guess you know the question you know micheal you know which i've been asking here is how can atheism in any way i mean i mean put aside your personal experience and i understand you've had wonderful experiences with atheism but in terms of really establishing facts how can atheism in any way compete with a good which is slum has brought i mean i'll just give you one example i mean we talked about the rehabilitation in the prison system now islam is a powerful force for rehabilitating prisoners now i have never heard you know of atheism having any impact in in the prison system as they can never happen but how can the atheism in any way can complete compete with islam okay so we have uh prison systems that in many countries that need to be reformed and i've been an advocate for prison reform for quite a long time much longer than than people are aware of here and i see that countries like norway are taking rehabilitation to to an extreme as some people call it um and they're they're having really good results really good successes with it so this kind of rehabilitation is very good um again they weren't inspired by islam they came up with this through different approaches and then i take a look at a study that was done a few years ago in the u.s prison systems if i recall correctly they brought in dogs to be trained by prisoners who were on death row for example or others who are in there for serious crimes and they each had their own cells so they were they were raising these animals these dogs and getting them trained up and it really helped it was a good rehabilitation approach so this there's a lot of different interesting points out there that point toward rehabilitation if i look at if i look at can't respond to that really quick okay and if i look at islamic sharia i see uh inequality um of women being treated as worth their testimony before we go there let's let's just let me answer the questions that that is pro rehabilitation if anything that's yeah pushing further punishment yeah well definitely get your research peer reviewed that's the first thing i will tell you you know when you when you because this is a research which was done here and it's clearly states over here how islam in fact i will just read it again sloughing off a previous life of crime which has been driven by an excessive desire for material gain the elements of conversion to islam helps with rehabilitating prisoners and and we're not talking about one or two but we're talking about several thousands now uh you know again i'm quoting for you research uh you know which was done on this and you're just saying well i don't you're you it's like what you're doing you're looking at this and you're interpreting it in a in a way which suits you best but you don't really have any kind of research or documentation to refute what i'm showing you you know so i think uh if you really have any kind of legitimate claims get it peer reviewed and submit it to these authors who basically wrote this uh research paper i also forgot to mention about finland yeah that's true finland and a lot of the european countries are the happiest places but that's a hodgepodge of different beliefs in there christianity islam uh atheists as well that really doesn't tell us anything about atheism and it is true muslim the muslim world is going through a very rough period also doesn't tell us anything about islam well the study which you did did it of course i'm not but my point here is up till thus far you know at least i'm producing some kind of research you know thus far would you agree with me in terms of really substantiating facts you have not produced anything i mean you've produced sure what you felt was uh was right about atheism and you've produced what how it impacted you but you have not presented any real research today would you agree with that i stated facts it wasn't just feelings okay what fact can you give to support a research paper that you've brought up i'm not familiar with it i'd have to read it and see myself first and before i do to accept it sure okay no problem now there's a and you know i think these are things which i didn't have the opportunity of uh knowing about that research paper ahead of time to be fair and of course about islam uh promoting the muslims are the most happiest people and that also goes to show you this is done in the western world when we're given the same resources and kind of lifestyle as everyone else we perform better so so we perform as a performer the best we i also showed you how they're the number one in terms of charity the people who give the most in charity are muslims and the people who give uh who are most uh most uh available to volunteer are muslims i also shared that for you so when you start adding it up i think you have to agree uh random there's no way atheism can compete with us you can't compete with that can you at least agree with that um i would have to read those statistics and look it up okay sure i'd have to read it okay i know some christians who would vehemently disagree with you on that because they want to be uh top in christianity being quite generous and what i do see is charity and uh volunteering coming from all demographics um and it looks to me like it's more to do with people in general rather than with with muslims now i've encountered muslims who tell me that um their doctrine forbids them to to help non muslims so well that's not true for verse 89 in the crown and you'll see it there as one example so um there's well there are concerns that we will so yeah yeah now well you can if you think that verse statistics okay we'll look at that verse i'd have to read the research that you're providing before i could uh accept that okay yeah and i think that's the problem here i think you have not really looked into islam uh well enough to really uh yeah and it's evidence so they're not only that but there's also the scientific evidence you know so uh which which is there as well and i think that i definitely uh i definitely invite you to do that but the but the alandish claim that islam tells us not to help non muslims is of course uh is of course ridiculous claim it's right there in the korean well okay well okay let's let's use a chapter four verse 89 is that correct yeah i believe it's 89 and they're saying not to not to not to become friends with non muslims with non-believers oh not to become friends don't don't take the non-believers as your friends so so now you interpreted the verse to mean you can never help non muslims is that correct so that is an interpretation that's uh not what i've done okay okay why are you trying to change what i'm saying okay it's um uh charity okay well let me let me let me just settle the matter well um so okay let me just first answer the verse it's not 489 where it says do not take the people of the book as your friends but i'm sure you know they're not helping them i think i think it also says okay well uh let's let me let me just go ahead and show you uh a reference which i think we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll solve we'll resolve the confusion here okay so let's let's go over here and uh let's go to the people of this is the hadith of prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam okay so this is called the people of supa they're a group of non-believers they were the guests of islam and and they were basically people who were starving and uh they were they were fasting by by putting stones to their stomach over here so the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam invited them in he fed them even while all the other muslims and everybody else was starving i know this is a lot but i'm just paraphrasing it okay yeah okay and so what's very interesting here is not only did the prophet Muhammad feed and clothe them while all the rest of the people were starving but not only that but he did a wonderful miracle for them in which food was multiplied and he fed them so so this i hope this hadith which hadith is a story from the history of prophet Muhammad will you know will clarify the matter and there's many references like this by the way uh which in fact let me let me get you another reference they're setting a good example there i think that's a great thing however what i was talking about was in the Quran not in the hadiths okay well the Quran so see the hadith explains it a little bit further but i don't think there's any verse in the Quran which says that you cannot do not help non-muslims okay uh there's just simply isn't any anything like that so um so also another one which i also kind of wanted to share with you another reference okay from prophet Muhammad okay which talks about from from from from the non-muslims how to how to treat the non-muslims okay it says over here it's sent by muah he sent them um this is he sent muah to yemen okay he said treat the people with ease don't be hard on them give them glad tidings and don't fill them with aversion meaning hatred and uh love love one another is actually down in the text it says then don't differ meaning don't get into argumentation so i see when i see a cautionary note of don't be hard on them uh that gives me some insight into what the general attitude is why why would it be necessary to tell people to not be hard on others if uh if the religion is so good for uh quality of life you know yeah so basically i think what you're doing here uh i think you're you're trying to ask a question is what i'm doing yeah you're splitting i think i'm kind of splitting here and i think because he's going to be sent as a ruler over over yemen and there were the jews and the christians who were living over there people with ease be sufficient why would he have to have the additional cautionary note of don't be hard on them it's it's as if he's expecting people to be hard on the other people well no i think that it would be a wrong interpretation that's a wrong assumption uh there there's no text there were there's there's no uh there's no justification for that but i think that going back to the original point look you said that islam teaches not to help non-muslims i think that is the misunderstanding of our religion and certainly we cannot accept i mean if islam really really taught that then how do you even begin to explain that muslims are the number one who gave to charity in america in 2020 that they're the that they're the number one people who are most likely to volunteer according to the study so i think you know i mean you these are the facts which i'm presenting to you so i and i want to return the question to you i mean when you look at these i'm going to defend i'm going to defend what i've said here because you're claiming that it's wrong so when i bring up verse 89 in chapter four at a website called karan dot com q u r n dot com uh the english says here they wish that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved and thus you become all alike so do not take friends from among them unless they migrate in the way of Allah then if they turn away seize them and kill them whenever you find them or wherever you find them and do not take from them a friend or helper can you do me a favor yeah can you read the next verse i'm uh it's not sure i'll do it for you let me let me read the next verse for you okay but but here is where it's saying don't take them to a friend or helper and you know maybe uh they're not saying that you can't help the others but they're you're saying don't take help from others yeah like i said that's well let me first uh ordering people to kill them yeah because they don't believe in Allah like that yeah that's at the page i'm looking at okay oh okay let's let's go yeah so let's let's read the very next verse which is right below it um yeah let's go here 490 okay except those who join a group between you and whom there is a treaty or who come to you uh who come to you with their hearts feeling discomfort in fighting either against you or against their own people if Allah had will He would have given them power over you then they uh then they would have fought you so if they stay away from you do not and do not fight you nor nor offer peace then Allah has not given any authority against them so this is really uh this is really a very amazing verse over here because of what the Quran is stating over here it states like if they are not offering you peace they're not peaceful people they're not staying away from you uh then Allah has given you no authority against them to kill them you see so i just wanted to show you that when you read the verse in his context it is the conditions laid out in the first sentence yeah if they're not okay so let's go to they have to join forces with you or have to accept those who join yeah okay so let's go to let's go to let's go to and so now if you say okay well it's conditional let's go to the next verse the next verse is the famous 491 spot check okay so so so this is going to answer your question here so you will find others who will be secure from you and we were looking at the first uh well let me let me just read this because it'll answer that the next verse okay well we're certainly looking at the second translation here where i was looking at the first translation oh you only do this one yeah that's what we were looking should be consistent you will find you will find others who want to be safe from you and safe from their own people but whenever they are called back to mischief they are plunged into it so now here comes a spot check for the muslim warrior is to perform on the battlefield if they do not stay away from you nor often and do not offer you peace and do not restrain their hands then seize them and kill them wherever you find them we have given you an open authority against them so this is a condition that where muslims are are are are called to attack and kill that if they're not staying away from you they're not offering you peace their hands are not restrained you check all these three okay now you can kill them all right that's a 491 spot check which licensed to kill a license to kill when they're not necessarily trying to kill you interesting well they are trying to kill you if they do not restrain their hands from you nor are they offering you peace that doesn't say anything about them trying to kill you well they're not restraining their hands against you well they're violently trying to attack them attack you i think that's pretty clear right yeah it's pretty harsh to respond with okay that's not clear for you huh not working for me because if they do not stay away from you nor offer you peace nor restrain their hands why is a caron going through giving you all these that does not translate to an attempt to kill though well if they're not okay how can you kill a peace peaceful people how can you kill a peaceful person when the caron clearly says and they do not and if they're not offering you peace and yet you kill them how can you do that it's walk me through the thought process for someone to kill an innocent person in light of this passage walk me through that how did that work the conditions were laid out in the first place on the first part of it now here there it seems almost contradictory but not quite because again not offering you peace is not the same as attempting to kill you well yeah i mean if if someone is attempting to kill you they're not offering you peace right if somebody's attempting to kill you then of course self-defense killing them seems not out of line but if all they're doing is not okay how do you kill an innocent person in light of 490 and 491 how do you kill an innocent person like that walk me through the thought process what uh if what's the reason that they're trying to kill you well you should look you brought up this verse you know you need to explain oh no you brought up 489 i'm sure you in context 491 the 491 spot check if you were to perform this on the battlefield or wherever even in life how can you kill an innocent person in light of this passage i'm sorry say the question again how do you kill an innocent person in light of chapter 4 verse 91 okay so i think there's an issue here with the defining what is innocent innocent of what okay how do you kill an unarmed person well um that depends on what your what technique you're going to use of course so here this is giving people a license to kill when what they're doing it doesn't say they're trying to kill you but it's giving you the okay to kill them yeah based on conditions right sure but nonetheless they're not staying away from you they're coming forward against you nor offer you peace nor offer you peace okay that's not justice and do not restrain their hands so now they're not restraining their hands this is clear meaning they're coming at you they're violently attacking you in some way then sees not necessarily they could just be making they could just be a noisy neighbor who's not giving you peace to stop okay listen randolph listen that certainly is a way an atheist who's in a debate and try hold on let me finish my point okay let me okay an atheist in a debate who's trying to defend his views is going to interpret it like that okay but for the one who sincerely believes in islam they will not interpret it in such a nefarious malicious way we are going to interpret it in the best way possible that's how we're going to understand it will the islamic state do that well of course that's there the islamic state are a group of uh you know they're renegades they're exactly how you would call the communists uh and and and joseph stalin and all the other terrorist atheists as well who have done far worse than the islamic state so anyways going back to my point i want to that that obviates your point of all muslims would interpret it this way not all maybe somewhat well islamic state doesn't you're an example of muslim who does interpret it that way yeah well i have not met anybody who was actually i've not even i even isis does not interpret 491 in any malicious way even they can't do it they have a magazine called debauch it looks really good because it could have much more easily and more clearly just been written if they are attempting to kill you then you have the right to kill them well it sounds like you're trying to say that this is a passage justifying self-defense but the conditions it's giving are a much lesser attack that justifies a greater attack of killing and that that's the problem i'm okay i you still haven't shown me how how you can kill uh an innocent person in light of four in the 491 spot check well that's that's what it permits okay well i am it we're gonna have to agree is if you've got some malicious interpret it doesn't limit it it doesn't limit the the progenitor's action of killing trying if they're now restraining their hands from you so so but anyway i think we we kind of we've kind of um exhausted this topic i mean if you want to have a malicious interpret yeah i mean i have more references on that for you but i want to get back to the subject of the debate look if we you know we need to base our conclusions on facts okay i have given you and i have not even even given you the example how islam was cited you know uh uh there is a source of 50 times the muslim woman is 50 times less likely than the global average to give a fetal to give birth to a fetal alcohol child does atheism have anything that can compete with that in any way the reason the reason for that is obvious because alcohol is prohibited in islam so of course that is going to be the natural result of that yeah well no not necessarily because a lot of belief systems condemn alcohol but they cannot produce the type of impact in the success that islam produces ah but the difference with islam is sharia is put in and used as a legal system and so these things are taken very very seriously that there's no this is where under other regimes it's not so seriously taken no it wasn't the sharia actually which was cited in the study in both studies it was the islamic religion itself sharia was cited in the study okay okay well if you feel that the study isn't accurate just like you felt like the what about the happiness is like i just told you that sharia has nothing to do with that well i mean you can see the prohibits alcohol here's what randolph was saying oh sure i'm sorry so if if you've got a regime that has laws that prohibit alcohol with serious consequences then of course people are not going to drink alcohol very much and countries are not going to be importing very much of it if any at all none of that was in the study by the way the result is going to be that you're not going to have feel alcohol syndrome occurring in those countries because the the access to alcohol is just not there okay have you ever have you ever traveled to a muslim country nope okay so when you go to a muslim country i'll just give one like morocco uh which i think uh yeah actually there's alcohol in morocco there's alcohol in southern arabia alcohol is readily available actually uh but if you look at the study all of what you are saying is nowhere in that study it was inside the islamic religion and they're not just muslims in the islamic world but also in the western world but the question irregardless of the means which you are trying to get in at the question i asked you is how does atheism in any way can compete with it what good can atheism give and don't give personal interpretations of your personal experiences what can we say atheism is bringing is bringing good to the table here well um i think you're assuming that alcohol is bad no that's not my question i'm asking you tell me something good atheism is bringing to the table freedom that's what we're here yeah okay where's the study where's the study that sovereignty freedom okay we all have that freedom muslims have that freedom so you're saying that under so you're saying under islam alcohol is not prohibited pork is not prohibited things like that under under islam i have all the freedom to make the decisions i want to make for myself but you see i get under islam uh you know people are gonna sin of course it gives you guidelines on how to live your life but islam also works in a secular system quite well in fact almost all the studies i've presented to you is from uh secular it was taken in a secular world but the but the question i want to raise to you and i don't want to question you on something um you said that atheism whether you're religious you said that atheism is some kind of catalyst or it brings about freedom do you have any research or any publications that i can look at that cites atheism as causing the cause of freedom do you have anything like that i never said that atheism was a catalyst or cause of freedom okay then what is your claim about atheism freedom is intrinsic in atheism because atheism doesn't impose that's a personal opinion guidelines any rules guidelines or restrictions that's a personal opinion right that's a fact okay but in terms of an impact a positive impact on people's life and humanity i think you would agree that you will not find any research uh for atheism to substantiate that now i understand you are telling me here's how atheism works there's no rules you pretty much do whatever you want and that's fine i'm not i'm not contradicting that but i am really i'm focusing more on the data the research and what has been uh you know studied in this regard by researchers that people are not biased okay and if we were to ask that question in terms of research and real documentation and references there is none for atheism would you agree with that i wouldn't agree that there's none but i'm just not aware of any that are going to talk about a society that has been created purely as atheistic because most of the societies have been created with some kind of religious influence now there are the paraha people who are very happy people in the amazon rainforest they don't have any religion at all they don't even have words in the language for any goddesses or gods or any concept of religion and they seem to be living quite happily in fact there's a get it peer reviewed get it peer reviewed rid of jesus to them and uh they when he described what it is that people are believing they laughed they thought who would believe something like that and by the end of it he came back uh not believing in any gods he was became an atheist himself it was quite an experience for the guy so yeah cc also i wanted to bring up you mentioned one point that well i'm sure christians would have a problem with that or i'm sure i could say the same about other groups of people well the studies which i cited did take christians as well as others into consideration in fact let me show you that real quick here yeah i mean this is not just they're looking at muslims and i will say looking at them in a vacuum but let me just share this with you real quick okay i have seen different studies like this over the years and they seem to come up with different results okay well um let's go over here so they they were talking that it trumps christians buddhists and yogis the studies suggest so basically i want you to also understand it's not like they're just looking at muslims in a in a vacuum you see they are looking at other groups of people so so but look let me show you something here now i think what we can agree i mean in terms of if you look at how islam started a scientific revolution to benefit all of humanity there's a highest level of satisfaction in life most likely to volunteer give charity i don't deny that islam that muslims contributed to to science for example classical optics muslims contributed quite a lot to because uh there was an interest in the stars to make sure that people were wanting to make sure they're oriented correctly when they're praying and all this sort of thing so there was a there was an interest in that and the contributions they made to classical optics were quite high quality quite good and they just you know islam definitely deserves credit for for muslims doing that for sure um there are other places in the world where scientific advancement also occurred it had nothing to do with islam china for example and so it wasn't only islam that can take credit for contributing to science other countries absolutely sure yeah and you mentioned mathematics the concept of zero was one that comes up a lot the chinese had the concept of zero long before islam was even around so so i think we are kind of all in agreement that if you know my expectation that you are going to come tonight and like i've presented five facts which is documented from scientific research of how islam has benefited humanity in such a you know you are not going to be able in any way again based on facts and documentation to compete with islam in this regard i think that has been established tonight you're not going to present any kind of counter references to show the greatness of atheism or something like that relevant though okay but but now my next question for you look when i look at all of this good and you know how do you even put a dollar amount on on having a healthy baby safe from fetal alcohol syndrome why should i leave islam and leave all this good that you are seeing on the screen and become an atheist why would i do that you think i'm asking you to leave islam i'm not okay i'm not asking anybody to leave their religions but why would you if you are here to promote atheism so why would anybody want to leave islam for atheism in light of what i've shared with you well if somebody's finding that islam is too oppressive for them apparently you're not and that's fine but some people do find it quite oppressive and they want to get out of it and so atheism is is a natural place that many of them find themselves when they ex muslims there's there's entire groups of ex muslims all around the world in every country almost it seems there are such groups so it's interesting that people are leaving and once they're leaving the commentary that i hear from a lot of them is that they're very happy to have left now there are other people who've joined islam and say the same thing they're very happy to have joined so you know it's just people in under atheism there's nothing that forbids people from leaving is leaving and joining a religion it's not something that you really join it's just something you just don't believe and that's it whereas with islam if you leave in many places there is there is a death sentence for you they the apostates they're called and i'm sure you know about this and then the pew research group did a study that was quite significant and they found statistically significant and they found that around 65 percent of muslims were wide favored death for apostates now that to me what can i respond to apostasy that but this is a serious issue because they want people to die for leaving the religion that tells me that the religion is pretty oppressive so there's a lot of pressure there on people who who who do you think killed the most apostates around here who are the biggest oppressors of apostasy well let me let me just answer you on apostasy okay okay so first of all apat what islam says about apostasy we can discuss that but for us the 99 percent though you can say the one billion muslims on this world which denomination are those one billion well about 90 percent are sunni 10 percent she i so we're talking 90 percent of the muslims well look we're gonna say for a hundred percent of all muslims well no we because denominations have different viewpoints on this is what we all agree on we disagree about how they're praying okay this is what we all agree on we all agree that the individual muslims like us who are just living their lives and we're the we are not called to kill apostates in any way we can be friends with apostates there's no there's no call according to pew research says that they should die that sounds quite random discrepancy there to me right off let me let me let me finish here real quick okay so we are not called to kill any apostates because this would be an a vigilante act the the rules of whatever apostasy whatever islam says about apostasy and we'll talk about that in a second that's under something called islamic sharia law it would be for me to start implementing the punishments of islamic sharia law would be as foolish as for you to like when you see someone speeding pull them over and say give me 50 bucks because that's a punishment in america you are you are a vigilante at this point so vigilante violence is not or anywhere has no place in islam now i want to also show you that the punishment of death for leaving a religion is far worse than just having to pay 50 let me get to that we're driving too fast okay so the biggest deception and and fraud but i'm not accusing you of that other people who do this is they try to portray muslims as the ones who are the killers of apostate and it is not number one people who persecute apostates are hindus as we are going to see over here from the times of india um and i want to ask you a question this saudi arabia india okay here we see the bajran don a militant hindu group hindu group who has physically assaulted muslims and christians and and the leaders threaten violence against hindus who attend church on christmas that is apostasy hindu is having a huge problem with this i know there's there's there's constantly back and forth yeah indian christian this latest news actually i think this was today yeah oh yeah this was actually i put this in today indian christians fear attack over over jail conversion now what is this the india has enacted these laws which are called anti conversion laws which are nothing more than apostasy laws which are being veiled as being something else and they're murdering and killing christians and muslims and especially hindus for can for for leaving the religion so the number one killers of apostate are hindus uh and and and you can where does it say that sorry where does it say that the hindus are killing apostates of islam indian christians fear attacks over conversions and the articles go over here that um you know basically this article doesn't say anything about people who've left it okay if i want to go you want to you want to go over here this is where they threaten violence against uh those people who attend church on christ what is that hindus are not muslims what's this got to do with the what i now i wanted what i'm showing you is that it's not muslims who are the only one who are killing apostates there are other people who are far worse and the next group but this doesn't address the point i made earlier the next group of people who who who persecute apostates are christians not the american christians so much but more so the russian orthodox church are they are they persecuting islamic apostates they're persecuting other groups of anybody who leaves the russian orthodox church to basically russian orthodox church is not islamic no i'm talking about no no i'm not randolph what i'm talking about is how other people are killing apostates not just muslims over here so i don't yeah but you haven't you haven't cited a single group that's killing islamic apostates yeah no of course there are some people who do kill apostates uh among muslims but these are vigilante these are vigilantes who are doing that and that is something which we do not support in any way but what i'm trying to show you except for well 35 and of course atheists are though probably our second biggest group of people who kill apostates and persecute apostates people who leave who who convert to christianity or islam in china are persecuting so so yeah i'm i'm not going to discuss that because as a policy i don't talk about china because there's too many different viewpoints on it and i don't want to go divert into that it's a big wrap while your atheist brothers and sisters over there uh you know are killing apostate there's a bunch of propaganda going on and it's i i'm not going into that area that's the political area okay um the the the point is you've not actually defeated the pure research study that showed approximately 65 of muslims are in favor of killing apostates oh yeah well that's normal yeah let me explain what i mean by that you agree okay yeah because when they when they actually asked evangelical christians 49 of evangelical christians said that if they had the opportunity they would make islam illegal in america in fact let me look for that statistics i think i disagree with those evangelicals i don't think it should be outlawed so that's from my point if you if you query if you look at statistics from other groups of people they don't fare any better okay uh and we also have seen what is going the other groups of people aren't trying you haven't demonstrated how any of these other groups gold are basically opinions well first of all i haven't even seen that study which you have quoted so you have it just from quite a few years ago but uh it's still i think it's still relevant today um it's well what i can tell you when you look at studies and you look at what christians you look at other groups of people what they believe in muslims really are not that much different you know so um 49 of evangelical christians this is yeah they would they would all yeah 65 of 1 billion people is 650 million people in the world who think it's okay for people who leave islam to be killed to be executed well i have not seen that study but that is not that is not the recipe for the betterment of humanity in my view no okay so let's let's talk apostates yeah they said for us muslim but what does let's talk about what islam teaches now one thing i want to make it obviously teaches it's okay to kill apostates no otherwise 65 percent of the people wouldn't feel that way no what islam teaches is we do not engage in vigilante violence i have no right you know the one billion hold on because they're the law yeah the one billion muslims on the faces planet islam removes any kind of right or any kind of way for us to kill apostates because that would be considered vigilante violence and we do not engage in that we are free islam offers us the freedom to be friends with apostates we can work alongside with them and there's no problem with that so i need to clarify what i said here because i think you might be misunderstanding i was not saying that muslims are going to actually take that action the pure research study was whether they favor execution of a death for apostasy and the answer was yes now it's assumed that they're going to let their government handle it in many cases yeah so you know that's because they're the government that's running sharia and all that but nonetheless okay now let's talk about islamic law the problem is the attitude of thinking it's okay to execute someone because they don't agree with with the religion and they want to leave the religion and they've left it you know that's that's where i have a problem atheism doesn't put this restriction on people but atheists have that opinion that atheists are killing apostates so very well atheists are killing apostates in china sorry i'm talking about atheism here i'm not talking about atheists i'm talking about uh atheism doesn't have anything in it that encourages killing people well that's the whole thing i mean there well if you look at atheism as you said it gives you the freedom to do whatever you want so sure so i mean nobody it is intrinsically a freedom now if we're living in society we need to go by whatever the rules are in that society if i was to move to saudi arabia i would follow its laws i would have to i may not like the laws well it's not because that's a matter of survival in that case here in canadian society it's very different we have a lot more freedom to have freedom of expression freedom of thought freedom of association freedom of conscience freedom of religion we can choose to be part of a religion for as long or as little time as we like sure i like living in this kind of society where we have these laws that don't favor any particular religion whereas if i went to saudi arabia as an atheist i would be taken as a a terrorist under their legal system which is justified under islam and i mean i think we're very as a terrorist just because i don't believe in any gods well but he i mean definitely we can have that discussion but i want to show this one system but what i think the problem is that's islamic influence that's taking away people's freedoms yeah but right off but see what i am seeing is you have moved more towards criticizing islam and that's good we can do that but what i have seen is you have pretty much given up all hope on in any way trying to show atheism in any way is good for humanity so i think that issue has been resolved and you are not going to in any way argue that any further based on documented there's there are limitations imposed there are limitations imposed under islam so we can talk about islam since islam really is the one which has demonstrated itself as the real uh how do you say better as a real cure and the real it has demonstrated itself as the way it can definitely improve society for mankind we know that's the fact now but so that's why i want to i want to before we go into islam i just want to let everybody know what the score is that since islam has demonstrated itself to be that reforming you know force for the betterment of society uh we can now look at that now you're quoting statistics let me quote this one for you okay this is basically uh nine in ten us muslims are proud to be americans it says over here it says over here compared with a general public muslims are more are more likely to say targeting killing civilians is never justifiable okay so there's if you want to quote statistics and that was actually from puf pu forum there's my there's my reference over there so so again you know let's not just pick one statistics let's let's look at all we know that they're the number one in terms of giving charity giving donations uh giving i'm sorry uh and get as well as volunteering and so there's many good statistics about muslims so see i think really you know i'm going to say that i think that there are many um many fine qualities good things that can come from islam but i also am willing to say hey look there are bad things about it too and that's where the problems lie and i think islam needs to be reformed i think okay one bad thing you called his apostasy well first of all well first friend 489 is another one and then there's more stuff 489 is only bad if you hold this malicious nefarious interpretation of the text which i have actually never seen anybody do yeah i mean look it is bad for an eight-ditch who's in the middle of a debate and he's trying to find faults with a quran 489 look looks horrible but to the rest of the islamic world who can look at that they can see the 491 spot check and i mean if you any kind of fair charitable reading of the text is going to look at that and say i'm sorry you are not going to be able to hurt or kill no what i'm saying it isn't people with that what i'm saying is there are many beautiful things in the quran but there are also many horrible things and i consider that to be one of the horrible things okay let me now i'll give you another example look we we try to go through the verse i try to explain to you 489 if you take it in context it's not verse 91 the problems with the spot check in 491 okay so so if you look at that if you look at the history of muhammad okay never there's actually many battles which have taken place okay never will you find a single person who is innocent who was killed as a result of his did having a different religion who was killed in islam because of that so so now so let muhammad be the way the person the right person to interpret the quran so when we look at that never has there been a peaceful tribe or a tribe fought and and killed just because they had a different religion that simply has never existed in islam one of the different denominations under islam yeah muhammad never killed or hurt anybody wow this is a different denomination denomination i don't think i don't think muhammad started multiple denominations i think those came later so let's talk about that let's talk about that and we want to go back to apostasy well i'm seeing many terrible things so i hope that you will interpret 489 the verse you claim to have a problem as you interpret it with a life i do have a problem with that that's not just okay i'm stating a fact okay i hope you'll interpret it in light of the teachings of prophet muhammad and now you did quote you did mention something about apostasy okay so there is a misunderstanding in islam that about islam that basically islam demands the killing of all apostates and that actually is not true first of all muhammad himself never killed any apostates many apostates came to him or it was presented to him and he forgave them and and basically let them go away so in islam i'm sorry what's that that's good to hear yeah so basically in islam you know there is a great deal of leniency towards apostates and so there is not a hard and fast rule which says of all apostates must die i'll agree with you on this yeah i'll agree and i'll explain why it's actually more charitable than the bible in the bible they when they come across people who don't believe the order is just to kill them at least with islam under 489 the the non-believer has the chance to become a believer first so you're saying 489 is telling you to kill people because they're of a different religion if they don't believe that that is what it says what it says give them a chance basically it looks to me like it says give them a chance to convert first and if they still don't if they still don't see the way of Allah then sees them and kill them okay so can you i would very much like for just some person to corroborate what you are saying because to be in a sense like i want you to find one person who can look at chapter 489 90 and 91 and who can come to that conclusion that is teaching to show me yeah one person it's real easy yeah i would like to see that because i don't know i'll ask you okay i'm gonna answer your question one person is really easy matt bill hunty he talked about this with a caller and the caller i heard that yeah so so matt bill hunty came to the same conclusion it's written right there yeah so basically there are ex-muslims i've talked to who say that that's generally how they see it and it's interpreted in different ways but that's generally the idea and there's basically and some of them are very right set against it of course so the caller as i recall was saying uh finally they went back and forth and he finally said okay at what time and so it's as if that only applies at a certain time period so i heard that i did hear that tape and so basically remember this one yeah so it's good we both so the mistake of matt provided i i provided that one person you asked for oh yeah sure so if you look at 489 you take a pair of scissors you cut it out and you just paste it right there 489 and yes absolutely and that's what matt bill hunty did he didn't even look at 490 my quote my challenge to you is look at verse 89 look at verse 90 and look at 91 and tell me who is going to be able to come to that conclusion here today and i pointed out the problems that i have with them and especially 491 is it's saying it's not saying if they're trying to kill you kill them it's saying if they're doing a bunch of things that could annoy you kill them if the Quran says if they're annoying you kill them then the Quran is wrong but i don't think that's what the Quran says i agree with you okay so let's look at 491 really quick again let's see if this is one more time with you yeah where does it say anything that annoyance was a was a criteria well these things seem to me kind of annoying so okay rando not swear where does it say annoyance is a criteria i'm calling i'm characterizing these three things okay no can you at least admit that's not what the text says do you want me to explain why i look at these as in the category of annoying it says so if they do not stay away from you okay so i could remember being an elementary school and some kid would not stay away this is on the context of a battlefield for a while rando this is on the context of a battlefield you know that right okay okay so keep going and they do not offer peace to you okay so no peace offering fine they might say i'm your enemy but they're not saying i'm going to kill you they're just saying i disagree and they do not restrain their hands okay so they're waving their hands well no and they do not offer you peace that doesn't necessarily mean that they're actually trying to kill you they may be just trying to knock you down so they can get past somewhere you're blocking the context isn't clear here and it says just kill them it's very black and white so these three but how do you interpret this how do you interpret this and they do not restrain their hands how do you interpret that that doesn't mean they're trying to kill you they could just be they're trying to knock you that's exactly what it means just be hang on hang on they could just be trying to push you out of the way let's let's okay so so let me give you another verse which i hope hopefully you're not you can't disagree with me on this because what i'm saying no those first three now those first three annoyances i'll just call them annoyances could easily be replaced with how do you how do you okay i want to see do your interpretation job on this one let me finish this please they said if that was simply to say if they are trying to kill you then kill them i would say okay yeah that makes sense that's reasonable but why list those three annoyances instead of just saying outright what you're saying it's trying to say because that's a great spot check on the battlefield so you're saying are they like for example you can on the battlefield you if they're not offering you peace what that means is that they're basically coming to attack you they're in no peaceful position they're not restraining their hands that when they look that phrase restraining their hands what that means is basically they're they're you know you know you know aggressive posture to attack to hurt you i do something you see so no no no do your interpretation job on this one you say that any of the body okay how do you interpret nine six how do you interpret this and if any of the you could be blocking their path and they're just forcefully pushing you out of the way okay well let's let's do that would be assault but that's not that's not attempt to kill okay how do you interpret this one if any of the this is chapter nine verse six if any of the polytheists ask for your protection granted to them so they may hear the word of god and escort them to a place of safety for they are people who have no knowledge you are supposed to escort them to a place of safety how do you interpret that okay that part of it i think sounds nice except for the last characterization says for they are people who have no knowledge i would say polytheists have knowledge of their deities right off the bat so that statement is false there's a problem there with that one here it's it's a put down to people just because they believe in multiple deities and i disagree with that okay so i know polytheists who are actually quite smart and have a lot of knowledge okay so at least we can agree that basically when people this is again on the battlefield they're the enemy is coming and asking for protection yeah okay i'm sorry what's that but the part before this last characterization seems nice i think that's a good approach okay okay good so and as i said you know i have a problem with the put down at the end i think that is disgusting and it's discriminatory certainly you have your being discriminatory is not a foundation for building a better society a better better for humankind yeah so i think the point which is being made over here for they have for their people who have no knowledge what's being meant over here well the reason whole reason why they're fighting you is because they're ignorant if they would know about Islam they wouldn't be fighting you if they would know about the peaceful gesture that Islam brings they wouldn't be fighting you they're obviously ignorant okay i think that's sounds arrogant to me and that's a put down and that's saying that they are lesser they are worse off and that that is a problem because that is sowing the seeds for discrimination against polytheists and under under under an atheistic under an atheistic society we don't we wouldn't have this kind of discrimination uh coming from any kind of religious doctrine and hopefully we wouldn't have it in the laws if people are using John Rawls theory of justice the veil of ignorance to try to form really good laws so you know this of course boils down to people and how they interpret things and the same thing happens with Islam and we've got the pure pure research group talking about 65 see that it's okay to kill apostates for leaving Islam yeah and the same and that's a problem for atheists as well this isn't and Hindus are okay so now the difference is yeah difference is atheism's not saying that polytheists are ignorant Islam is and you just show me the verse where it is can i can i show you how Muhammad can i show you how Muhammad himself interpreted 481 and that's what i wanted that's what i you know of course we can all make our interpretations of scripture are you are you saying that are you are you about to show me that the Koran has a mistake in it no i'm showing how Muhammad interprets no no no no no if if you're going to say that it's not being discriminatory toward polytheists then what you are in effect going to be doing is and you won't be able to avoid this is saying that the Koran is mistaken there no no well no that's exactly no i'm not i'm not going anywhere near there i just wanted to show you how the prophet Muhammad uh basically interpreted a chapter four verse nine i'm showing the 491 spot check uh how Muhammad yeah because that's exactly the spot check you gotta do on the battlefield yeah so it says over here uh so this is a story i'm just going to paraphrase it over here okay there's a man who came and he lifted up a sword to kill prophet Muhammad okay then the sword you know you could call it miraculously fell out of his hand and came into the hand of Muhammad and then he raised it but said who's going to protect you from me you know and so and so then and so just going over very quickly he said who will protect you from me as soon as he said that the sword fell down from his hand and Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam catching the sword asked him who will protect you from me he will say please forgive me okay the messenger said on the condition that you testify that there's none worthy of worship but Allah i'm his messenger now look at the look at the texture it says no which is pretty now that's a pretty brave guy if i was there even a lot of what's that okay yeah sure sure just to get away but this guy was really adamant he says no but i promise i promise you that i shall not fight against you nor nor shall i be with those people who fight with you the prophet let him go this is a 491 spot check because it's 491 spot check clearly says if they're offering you peace let him go and he went back to his people and said i have come to you from one who's the best of the mankind referring to prophet Muhammad so what i want you to do is interpret 491 the way Muhammad interpreted and i think then you will see that Islam the Quran is a book of peace and issue with issues like apostasy we are not commanded to do that i don't i don't take issue with that story in in its sense saying that Muhammad interpreted that way i what i don't understand is why you're interpreting those three annoyances as i call them to be uh an attempt of killing i don't i'm saying it's not necessarily that that's the case and that's what we're having a problem and i'm saying that that's not justice that is yeah justice because uh you're it's giving people permission to kill people who are just annoying them yeah so so i think you what what's happening here you're annoying but it's annoying well i think what's happening here is you're having your private interpretation of scripture and that's fine we you can have your interpretation and i'm not going to fight you on that so who's interpretation is the correct one yeah well like i said if 99 why is yours better than mine yeah like i said 99.999 percent of people who are going to read 489 90 91 will not come to that conclusion uh so i'm pretty confident in that why is your interpretation better than mine yeah we were look i think we've already exhausted 4989 90 91 i want to get back to really i think the real subject of this debate and i think it really is how Islam and atheism benefits humanity now i've cited five reasons you know and all of them were documented and and and so i think we all agree that atheism based on the documentation not your personal experiences randall but if we look at atheism based upon documentation it offers nothing for mankind would you agree on that well atheism isn't uh necessary based on documentation well atheism isn't necessary well it's it means that you don't believe in deities that's it that's all there is to it whereas islam has a whole doctrine it has the sharia system it has all these different things that may it aims to be a political system as well as a legal system and it carries various instances of injustice in it many well let's now i'm asking you of these so you're very atheism atheism is neutral whereas islam is uh bringing some good things and some really bad things and because of the bad things that's why i say that it's better to be neutral so that we can build our own system from scratch right but as far as you know what is based upon documentation i mean the question i think you veered off on trying to talk about how bad islam is but the really the question which i think you kind of well you've tried to talk about how bad atheism is and you haven't been able to show that you know what i'm saying it would know that really the subject of tonight's debate is what does atheism and islam offer mankind and if we look at atheism and i think you're conceding there is no real benefit that atheism based on research verified research that atheism can offer mankind there just isn't anything like that you're adding their criteria to this i'm looking at the principles behind all this and so you know if you want to add that criteria i never agreed to add the criteria of of studies that uh that agree with all of this why shouldn't we base our views on facts and what has been researched and i'm not saying we shouldn't base it on facts but this is a question of principle and so i'm looking at the principles and so the facts are definitely helpful for understanding the principles i don't deny that but the principles are atheism is intrinsically freedom whereas islam is intrinsically about submission and conforming to the standard that islam provides and there are questions and concerns about certain aspects of islam that i have think make it not the most ideal candidate for being the best for humankind and i highlighted some of those yeah so let's okay so you've highlighted some things about islam which you felt was not good for mankind but would you say a little bit longer then we shortly have to go into qna sure sure and but would you say that it overrides all the good which i have presented to you in the term that started a scientific revolution that had helped children to start all of science that started i already clarified it only you can't take credit for all of science with that no not all science i'm not saying that it started a scientific revolution so you're saying that in the community for sure yeah yeah the negative things you see about islam uh overrides all of the good which it brings is that what you're claiming i think that islam brings on a lot of bad things to society i really do well based on evidence and do you have any evidence for what you're saying oh look look at all the women who've been trying to leave islam and get acid poured on their face or other kinds of okay that's not a slam okay you are when we talk about evidence i'm talking about documented science facts which we can read in peer review journals these are muslims who are basing their decisions on what they understand the principles of islam to be and what people around them consider that to be normal as well which is a problem and the underlying problem with a religion any religion is the demand for conformity and i'm more on the pro-freedom side here and islam demands conformity it demands submission and things like that if i take a look at how women are treated they get mistreated in testimony and inheritance they're only getting 50 percent of what the man gets just because of their sex in many islamic societies women are severely restricted to wear clothing that is basically hides them so that you can only see their eyes for example and maybe they respond to some of that okay and so i'm not saying all societies do that but many of them do and this is a problem and this is all being claimed to be done in the name of islam because islam requires it and i have a big problem with that because that again is a restriction on people's freedoms well first of all the asset throwing thing that nowhere does islam in any way endorse throwing acids in people's face i can accept that yeah okay so that has nothing to do with islam and in terms of the clothes the restriction there was a punishment well i don't know that's absolute insanity in the eyes of people that are mentally ill people i don't agree with that i think it's wrong i think it's it's immoral and ethical i think it's cruel yeah and it's a human rights violation that's a mental that's mental illness okay that's what it is or it's just hatred not necessarily don't don't don't associate people who are mentally ill with that because there are lots of people with mental illnesses who are not violent who are not bad people there there's there's a whole spectrum of mental illness out there that ranges just as much as people without mental illnesses from good to bad yeah and also you know in terms of a lot of the atheism doesn't inform me but atheism doesn't tell me to discriminate against people and call them mentally ill but it also doesn't do anything for mankind and i think that's also pretty clear doesn't respect people so this way it has no positive impact for mankind i think that is what really what we are all settling here on what happened with the Charlie Hebdo massacre they were drawing pictures of Muhammad and Muslims all over the world many Muslims were up in arms about this they were public speakers or Muslim scholars who are upset about this and people were calling for the the death of anybody who draws a picture of Muhammad and most of the media was scared because there were death threats coming in why why do people have this mentality if if Islam is supposed to be so good for society yeah as i said from a even from a scholarly point of view this is ridiculous vigilante violence like Islam completely condemns all of this kind of Charlie Hebdo massacres and all these things which are taking place so of course look the problem which what you're saying there are so many bad examples of atheists as well as i've shown you in china which you don't want to talk about for Islam you got pole pot you've got you've got Lenin you've got many horrible evil ugly atheists in this world too so if you want to just pick on the Muslim ugly people that's hypocrisy because i think it's okay to kill people who've left the religion well i've now i've never seen that study and also i will also show you no no okay i've not only have i not seen that but i will also tell you that almost all the Muslims will agree with what i have said that Islam offers a great deal of leniency towards apostates they'll all agree that that we have no business killing apostates okay because there are apostates everywhere you don't see them dropping like flies of course not the vast majority of Muslims agree it is not our job to kill any apostates we do not engage in vigilante violence okay could you agree that removing or rewriting section 489 and the others from the Koran would be a good step no the 489 but the whole world should be embracing i mean that's a wonderful spot check on the battlefield it specifically says that we give you and if they're not offering you peace we give you no authority against them for and you know what is really this 489 to 91 this is one of the evidence is that this is a book from god because that type of advanced thinking did not exist 1400 years ago to provide a spot check i don't consider that to be advanced i do i think that it's i think it clearly defines what an innocent civilian is it clearly if a person who wants to engage in wanton killing and who wants to kill people just because they're disbelievers or something like that they would never they would never author a 491 spot check and go into detail and say look if they're not offering you peace if they're not restraining their hands okay then you can kill them all right a madman or a type of sadistic killer would never go into this type of detail that is a license to kill and for for for an infraction that is not necessarily okay okay well i have a problem with because yeah that is an unequal footing it does not fit we already covered this earlier we already covered it okay well i think we're ready to go to question answers right yeah okay yeah and want to say folks let's proceed with a smile first yeah yeah thank you dear and want to let you know folks we are absolutely pumped for the modern day debate con conference that i had mentioned earlier in the stream one of the debates of which is at the bottom right of your screen tickets are going on sale during this stream so keep an eye on the live chat we will be putting a link for the ticket if you want to come and watch it in person in dallas texas it's going to be amazing and we are excited to get to meet you if you happen to make it in person and so keep an eye out in the live chat as that'll be out in just a moment but i'm going to jump into the q&a first thanks so for your questions folks we've got a lot of them i'm going to try to move fast and so thanks so much from mango tea says nadir none is better humanity is in a state of illusion whereby people have misinterpreted the perception of reality to succeed with reality humans must ignore all thoughts and abide by natural laws i hope you know what that means i don't know what that means well you know all of this is opinions you know people can have their opinions but what the argument which i've presented tonight what when we talk about what's good for humanity i have presented five facts which is based upon science which is based upon documented research and so i think what's happening is you know i i can't change people's opinions and i think that is something i would like for that person to consider you got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from quick lemon says for nadir if you had to choose i think it's a sincere question so i'm going to read it it's not meant to troll i think that they i mean you can you can some maybe maybe would say it's a softball they say for nadir if you had to choose between a nine-year-old muslim girl or a 25 year old atheist girl to mary who would you choose no 25 year old atheist simple next up mango tea and it says nadir as it i'm just teasing the deer as an x muslim i see the effects of islam and particularly the capacity of islam has to affect one's behavior and motivation towards life is it true islam makes you lethargic is islam feminine well you know the problem is i think a lot of these people they claim well i've seen what islam brings what it really is they've been influenced by this anti islamic propaganda and for that person i have already refuted him with facts and and and so he needs to confront uh the facts which i have presented to him like for example i've shown that muslims have the highest level of satisfaction of life satisfaction that far and the feeling of oneness that trumps christians buddhists and yogis i have refuted that person in which he's ignoring all which i'm presenting i have also shown that they are the number one people in terms of giving to charity the most likely to volunteer so when people say islam influences people in a bad way that's simply not what the facts support you gotta say it sorry i'd like to quickly follow up i'd say it influences in good and bad ways and i have big complaints about the bad ways the one another example would be circumcision which is designed to reduce the pleasure sensations and under islam there are muslims who are circumcising little girls and that to me is a human rights violation i know nadeer probably wants to follow up something on that go ahead i object to that practice as well yeah well i did very very bad that's half the population affected by that of the muslim demographic yeah and circumcision is not something condemned by them by the medical scientific community you can have your personal opinions about it uh but i don't think that something was from from a scientific point of view is considered a bad you got this one coming in from do appreciate your question mango tea says or actually sunflower says randolph how have you read the lord of the flies by william golding do you think modern humans would naturally develop empathetic and civil societies if put in similar situations sorry what was the name of the book i coughed and didn't miss the name of it the lord of the flies by william golding okay yeah that's uh that's quite a long long time ago i'd have to reread it it's uh it's a very well written book though um and they they do highlight a lot of uh important things about humanity there um i i think uh i'm not able to answer that one unfortunately sorry i'll have to reread it first no problem mango tea says nadeer is it true islam is a feminine religion islam promotes women excessively i see islamic families and how the wife would have dominion over the husband the boys end up becoming feminized i don't think there's any facts to support that no you got it grimlock says happiness is not a measurement of truth is living a lie better just because it makes you happier uh i i think that they're uh thinking that you're trying to say that because islam makes you happy that it's true they say what of the people believe i think they're trying to say false do you think they'd be happier living a lie yeah so that's uh that's that's a consequence fallacy that something is true just because the consequences uh are good and and and so tonight's debate is not why islam is true if that was a debate topic i would have presented the scientific and prophetic evidence to support why Muhammad is a true prophet now what i've presented you the impact islam has upon mankind that is part of the evidence but that is not the evidence alone uh which we would we which we would state the prophethood of Muhammad in fact i would very much like to invite richard that if he gets an opportunity i would like for you to participate in the scientific uh why in the debate regarding why the Quran is a scientific miracle and uh you mean Randolph i'm sorry what did i call you richard i'm sorry Randolph i just want to make sure you're actually you're asking me it's uh it happens all the time don't worry about it it's okay sorry about that yeah um it's okay it's okay but yeah i'd like for you to participate in that debate and look at it as scientific evidence is for some you've seen one about how islam uh the you know fetal alcohol syndrome Muslim women who give birth to fetal alcohol 50 times less likely to give birth to a fetal alcohol child if we do a debate on that i would like to uh team up with somebody and you can too so it could be a two two against two two with two yeah that's fine that's fine yeah yeah you got it and thank you very much for your question what the legend rives says all countries had a religious moral system taught by their ancestors they also last way longer than atheist countries an original teacher is proven well the interesting thing about religions is that they require maintenance because there's a whole belief system and so there needs to be reassurances there needs to be maintenance of the foundations and society and so a society that is religious centric will have to make sure they put things in place to maintain that and ensure that the religionist it continues to thrive so because there's different rules and things that people can veer off from what atheism there's nothing that you can veer off from other than joining a religion and that's it and that you're not really veering off it's just you're not restricted in any way so yeah i can see that when there's a system put in place of ongoing maintenance that indeed it makes sense that something like that would last longer you got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from mark reads as Nadir the study concluded that quote muslims were most likely to believe that they were connected to something larger than themselves unquote why is this better for humankind why are you misrepresenting it uh i i don't think he had a proper understanding of the study which i quoted i actually quoted many um and so i think he needs to basically go back and look at my reference read it carefully uh and i don't think i think that'll answer his question mark read also says nadir does and nisa 34 say that if your wife refuses to obey then you may beat them how is this good for humankind yeah so many people have misinterpreted this verse to mean that this refers to domestic violence but if you look at other verses look around it it talks about what you know what this so-called beating is and that is basically with a bundle of grass and i believe that's chapter 38 verse 51 let me look it up for you so uh it is not in any way to be interpreted in terms of domestic violence actually domestic violence is is clearly condemned in islam the concept of beating us out when obviously there's not consent for the beating uh it's not a bd sm scenario for example um to me is abhorrent so i that's one of the things that i object to go ahead nadir i'm sure because it's your question you probably want to respond to that too well if we're talking about with a bundle of grass okay uh i don't consider that to be quite abhorrent as you were saying but uh but for sure we all agree that it's it's undeniable that domestic violence is clearly condemned in islam there's no doubt about it you got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from benjamin is it iota iota says that's not exactly what it says read the arabic okay we can read the arabic what what exactly is the point here if they didn't mention where they were referring to though so that was earlier in the debate i remember that but i don't know so benjamin you have to let me know what passage you were referring to but mango tea says nadir charity is stupid when you give too much everybody ends up being poor i don't think i need to respond to that i islam certainly doesn't tell people to go overboard like that we respond with humor that's what i suggest nagnuni says question for nadir is islamic slavery good or bad for humankind and would you be my slave under islamic rules yeah so basically uh the issue on one of the biggest misconceptions is that people think islam endorses slavery no it does not islam condemns slavery and what i mean by that is judaeo christian slavery the slavery which you are all familiar with is judaeo christian slavery which has brutalized and brought so much misery and suffering to the world and that's actually endorsed by the bible but islam brings a very different version of slavery one in which all of the harshness all the problems which we see in slavery is systematically removed so that is the only version of slavery which it endorses for example it it condemns beating a slave it tells people that you should educate your slave and then set him free and then it says if you whatever clothes you wear the slave master wears your slave has to wear the same clothes it says he will eat the same food you eat so if you're eating lobster and shrimp or lobster and steak guess what your slave is eating lobster and steak and you never overwork him so if he's working out there in the hard field it says if you overwork him you better go out there and help him so all of the miseries and suffering and problems that are with slavery muhammad has removed all of them and it has won the recognition of the academic community as well and i hope one day we can have a debate on that on slavery in islam and christianity because once again that will prove that islam is a true religion i just have to push back on that because my understanding is that slavery is okay according to sharia and islam never abolished it not in the quran or the hadiths uh yemen still has grandfathered slavery laws saudi arabia abolished it but then they diverted from things a little bit and added a migrant workers law called the kaphala i'm not saying right guarantee thank you thank you for correcting me requires a sponsor to take control of the person's rights the sponsor holds their passport and other documents that would allow them to get out of the country if they wanted to leave and the whole practice effectively amounts to indentured servitude so muhammad also owns slaves and that's how that's justified that's my understanding okay and as i have said islam completely redefined with slavery in terms of kaphala and all those practical examples that you are presenting islam is in condemnation with every version of slavery except what is endorsed in our scriptures and what i have presented to you is something so good that it can be argued it's actually better than freedom because in freedom you don't get the right to ed to be educated in islamic slavery prophet muhammad said the one who educates a slave girl and then frees her he will get a double reward so when we talk about islam and slavery we must say in accordance with what is written in our scripture not that kaphala stuff because islam because islam does not recognize any version of slavery other than what's in its books and when we look at that it is a very merciful tolerant version of slavery slavery is not a gift i want one last response in a dear yeah well okay so here so let's let's let's let's talk about that why was there even why didn't it just come out and abolish slavery well it is too good question yeah yeah that is a question a lot of people ask and there's a very simple answer and that is to avert the humanitarian catastrophe which will ensue shortly after as we have seen all throughout the western world let me just give you one example in brazil they abruptly ended slavery without any kind of uh how should you say infrastructure to receive all those millions of free slaves what happened they built their homes into the into the mountaintops of these places called the favelas the favelas are now ridden with crime and violence cyclical crime cyclical violence in one year alone 64 000 people were murdered in these favelas this is what happens when there was a sudden release of men coming from slavery into freedom without any infrastructure to receive them islam puts the right infrastructure so that when they when they leave they're leaving towards something you go to this one coming in from do appreciate it grimlock says wonderful if the people you are attempting to conquer defend themselves then you can kill them perfect logic no moral atrocities there i think they're being sarcastic that does speak to part of my objection to uh 489 391 and i think nadir probably has some feedback to that as well since it sounds like a comment for both of us yeah so basically first of all islam never teaches to attack peaceful people okay because remember the text said if they're not offering you peace nor restraining their hands so so it's since these are people who are offering you peace they're in no way can you attack them and so in fact i will give you an example of one of the caravan caravan rates and i'll give that as as an example they're the basically them the meccan arab they have attacked the muslims in in many ways and so in retaliation they decided to basically attack their caravans so they basically came out to in fact let me share my my desktop over here because that was so i can show you the reference which i'm which i'm referring to here uh this is inside syria ibn ishaq and so here we see the 491 spot check being put into into action here interpreted in light of how muhammad interpreted so this is from syria ibn ishaq so it says over here um that i will war against them that war against you and i'll be at peace with those who are at peace with you but that's not the reference i actually wanted to give you uh this is a reference right over here okay it says over here that that basically when muhammad set out to attack a group of in retaliation for being attacked by a group of idol worshipers it says over here that um this is from this is from the book syria ibn ishaq it says that uh they sent somebody to go make peace with muhammad look what muhammad's response was just go and attack and kill them it says he returned to medina without meeting war and remain there for the rest of suffer so when people this is the 491 spot check in action here when people don't want to fight they're saying hey listen let's have some peace we don't want to be involved in this what does the text say he returned to medina without meeting war so that's why we say slobby rose in a piece go ahead you mean me or randolph whoever thank you for your question benjamin iota says stop reading these modern translations read arabic nadir and then says again read the arabic stop letting him get away with that i think him is supposed to be random i don't know what's yeah okay so i guess that's i'll answer that um so the problem here is when these uh islam bachelors get refuted uh they'll say oh but you don't know the arabic you don't know the arabic you know and and i do want to debate this in arabic i'm ready to we can look at the arabic text and i don't think it's kind of say anything different i think it's getting actually further enforced all my arguments a random i think that's what they're saying i interpreted it that they were saying like nadir pull out the big guns you read it in arabic bring them where are these big guns if there are some Arabs who want to debate this in arabic we can do that now look at the text in arabic i will say this is where islam does have an advantage over christianity is that the arabic texts are available whereas my understanding with christianity the original texts are not available there's there's a lot of ideas on what should be the original text but the very original ones apparently aren't available um as far as saying during a debate we're debating in english here so nadir and i are using english references and things like that it all makes sense because that's the way it's going this convention being used um if uh and i would say that if a religion can't be properly converted to a different language then there's a serious problem with yeah how that's being practiced and nadir's agreeing with me on this i'm not surprised um the um the the the the tactic of saying go to the original texts sounds like a little bit of a cop out to me it always has and it's kind of a diversion um because you know yeah i'd have to learn arabic i don't know arabic it's a wild goose chase even if we went to the arabic yeah outcome will not be any different yeah wild goose chase there we go thank you and james please check the private chat you got it one moment this one coming in from sunflowers is nadir do you condemn the perpetrators of the charlie hebdo massacre absolutely these are criminals these are vigilantes these are people who have nothing to do with islam or islamic law not just me but almost all the islamic scholar at least the one that i've seen have completely condemned that you got it and this one coming in from mango tea says islam does make you happy if you are living in a civilized society but true happiness comes from being in nature and aligning yourself with reality how do you like them apples and nadir well that's that may be one way for a lot of people to to get happiness but but what i wanted to kind of demonstrate is is that when we talk about how islam impacts and humanity for the better you know it has actually been documented and has been researched and not just you know in terms of also having lowering the rate of fetal alcohol children down to 50 times less likely so there's many good things about which which about islam which i think that person should consider you got it yeah i i uh objected to the prohibition argument there because if you prohibit something a substance then of course there's going to be a lot less abuse of it a lot less misuse of it because there's going to be less of it available so i do think that's a bit of a misnomer on nadir's part and i just want to say i found it wonderful that james picked apples earlier but nadir you probably have something to say to what i just said yeah well yeah i mean there is really no islamic country which has successfully or in any way prohibits alcohol you can get beer and wine in every Islamic country okay so this is an impact there there's something great about islam which convinces the individual to stay away from these drinks and i think that is that is the impact it's having upon people which has really made a a positive impact on society you got it and thank you very much for your question coming in from azean says 491 i assume sir but i don't know so you can tell me you correct me if i'm wrong do you just say 49 what we were talking about earlier i think 49 yeah 491 yeah says if someone hits you can you kill them if someone hits you can you kill them no of course not well you know 49 the 49 ones the 491 spot check is a spot check which was done on the battlefield this is not something like for example me and you just walking down the street okay so uh that the context has to be put into place and again you know i've shown you from syria ibn ishak that even when on the battlefield when the enemy doesn't want to fight what did Muhammad do he returned back to medina because the main thrust here in the Quran in the hadith and the syria for people who are peaceful there's no war to be made against them we are friends with all peaceful people you've got it and my answer to that my answer to that is yes 491 basically says that it's what i've been arguing so that is how it looks otherwise it would be saying if they're trying to kill you you can kill them it's not saying that so it is that's what i called the three anoints is the first three examples and to limit the scope to the battlefield i think is irrelevant because justice should be applicable everywhere including in in war that's why we have war treaties and things like that and rules about how to treat people who are prisoners of war and whatnot so we need to make sure that the justice is not made an exception to anywhere because if it is then it falls apart you got it and thank you very much for your question coming in from sunflower says nadir do you condemn no we got that one sorry a zion says if 60 year old or alcohol is good for you nadir says science no actually the position of science uh regarding alcohol is that true there is some good in it but the harm far outweighs any good in alcohol so if you're thinking well okay i'm just going to drink some alcohol for my heart's sake or something like that this is unscientific in fact now the latest research actually shows that alcohol causes brain damage so uh no there's the bad outweighs any good of alcohol i can think of a counter real quick um back in the times before we had anesthetic people would get drunk before getting a tooth extracted because it would be a lot less painful i think most of those people would argue that alcohol is a very good thing in those circumstances you and thank you very much this one coming in actually i want to give you the last word on that one is uh nadir given that uh it was for you please yeah so now we're talking about for medicinal uses let's say it's been really proven uh to be true then islam is not against using pork byproducts or alcohol and medicine in fact i used alcoholic uh mouthwash when i got my teeth cleaned that was a prescription mouthwash i had to use that alcohol on it so if it's something which is from legitimate purpose and islam definitely allows that you got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from mark reads as nadir why do you think it is fair to show quote unquote daily mail news articles then demand peer reviewed papers they aren't peer reviewed papers either at daily mail i just want to point out before you start nadir i did mention it was a daily news article and i said that was okay uh for the purposes of this debate but go ahead nadir yeah they were actually quoting a study i could i could be very easily linked straight to the study but the daily mail article which is pretty reputable uh you know they do pretty reputable journalism and they're pretty you know world-renowned i thought that was good to provide the summary the headline of the research but if you look at the reference which i've actually presented you look at that article you will see that the peer reviewed study to be linked in there and i can i can present that to you if you like you got it and want to mention folks we just put out the link to grab tickets for the first ever modern day debate debate con conference in dallas on january 15th it's linked at the top of the chat folks it is going to be a blast and we hope to see you there as we have early bird tickets right now and man it is a deal for sure folks it is significantly cheaper if you sign up grab a ticket now and want to let you know this is so important folks 100 percent i want to emphasize this because some people are like oh james uh you know oh you're selling tickets hey are you looking to raise some funds for your own vacation no no no no 100 percent of the funds that coming through the tickets as well as through the crowdfund are going to be devoted to debate con whether it be this conference or if we happen to have a surplus we don't know we're hoping we just break even but if we have a surplus 100 of that surplus and funds will be used for the next conference so in other words booking flights for speakers covering their hotel nights covering the venue cost because it does cost a lot to do this kind of in person event and so like i said 100 of it is going back into the conference none of it is going into my pocket and so if you buy a ticket you can know that it's going strictly to debate con happening so with that jumping back in for the next question thank you very much asian says there is no hell there is no eternal punishment don't be afraid of death please stop apostasy laws and allow atheists to speak openly against god i have a feeling that's for you nadir well as the atheists themselves in china and other places who are killing apostates who are persecuting apostates so this advice should first go to them hindus are actually the most people who actually persecute apostates there's apostasy laws which are called anti-conversion laws which are nothing more than apostate the apostasy laws veiled it's it's the orthodox christ church in russia which also persecutes apostates so we don't need to hear this lecture i think from the rest of the world they need to handle it and also there's apostasy laws unwritten apostasy laws from from the orthodox jewish community for when they leave their religion so this is certainly not an only muslim phenomenon you got it and thank you very much for this question do appreciate it mark reid says actually there's azian that said we got you so sorry it is so no problem okay elusive vipers as if peer reviewed studies showed that Mormonism provided better outcomes in all of the metrics you've mentioned would you convert from Islam nadir that's yeah this goes back to the consequence fallacy uh just because the consequences are good therefore it is true but that's not my argument tonight i'm not here to debate is Islam true this is of course can be part of it i mean when you look at the five facts which i have raised tonight of how Islam impacts humanity none of that was actually denied none of that was refuted and on my challenges well what religion what belief out there that can offer me all what Islam can offer and i don't think you'll be able to find one like that so um but what makes Islam true is the scientific miracles of it the prophetic evidence as well as the great consequences that we see so there's many lines of reasoning and evidences for it which makes Islam true you got it there's one coming in from azian strikes again i have friends in muslim countries who are terrified of their families killing them for being atheists muslim countries are horrible to atheists well that happens all in all over the world look in india i've said i've already shown you that these banded bands of radical fundamentalist hindu's who are trying to enforce a very extreme version of hinduism are also threatening apostates it's happening in russia it's happening even in america their apostates from wherever they are from whatever walk of life they're going to face problems and i've i've shown you the documentation that again it is a this is the false uh the false idea that apostasy is only a muslim problem no it's not you got it and thank you very much for your question coming in from sudo nim says nadir can you or randolph read chapter 16 verse 67 of the Quran quote from the great vine behold this drink is for the wise unquote is alcohol forbidden though endorsed no absolutely not so basically of course islam does mention that there is some good in alcohol but the evil of it outweighs the good so like i said what what you need to do you need to look at the peer reviewed studies which i've shown you and it states very clearly in there it is because of their islamic faith which has led to these great results which is 50 times less likely to have a fetal alcohol child but not only that but we also see islam is helping in preventing crime because 40 percent of the crime is alcohol induced so these are just some of the great impacts islam has on on humanity this one from sunflower says nadir thoughts on the disproportionate level of genetic disorders due to reproduction between cousins in islam is that condoned in the Quran so basically when it when it comes to cousins there's no statement in the Quran which actually tells people go and marry your cousin the Quran is silent on that in the hadith there is an incident where Muhammad married his cousin so people began to interpret it that you should go that we should go marry our cousin so the problem first of all is in the interpretation but what Muhammad made it very clear on what on the criteria to get married i'll quote for you hadith over here which is which i think should clarify the matter on who you should marry and this is the problem people are not following the guidance of islam so oops let me let me go over here well first of all i also want to back up nowhere to this say science has not taken the position that you cannot marry your cousin rather it's really is the frequency so this is actually actually incest does uh i'll show you i'll show you the problems yeah so basically a woman is to be married for four reasons for her property her status her beauty and it goes on so try to get the one who is religious not your cousin look for the religious person and and again it talks about her good character so may your hands be be smirched with dust so it actually gives a threat for the people who try to look for any other reason to marry so in the next hadith it actually states that um marry marry them for for the religion a black slave a black slave woman with piercings who is religious is far better so if people follow these the the divine the guidance from prophet Muhammad there wouldn't be any problems of of of cousin marriages why is a black slave woman better i'm curious why why do they if she's religious because people were thinking back then well okay well she's a slave woman but my but this person is much better because she's not a slave i was saying hey listen if she's religious she's gonna be much better than anybody who you can even what what does it matter that she's black though why why do they specify that well we can we can debate that at a later time right i'm just wondering why they specify that why they get that specific well because some people might have a notion in their head oh but wait a second she's a slave black woman therefore well but she's religious this person is better than that Muhammad is saying no even if she's a black slave woman of what they're thinking and she's religious to be much better based upon her religious conviction back against racism is what you're saying absolutely in fact there's a hadith on that which says that no arab or non-arab is better or a black person is better it's unpaity okay um that's i'm glad to hear that uh james the previous question they were asking us to read out 1660 is that right 16 let me see i scrolled up already 59 oh 59 okay i see six there so sorry verse 67 okay that i'm sure 1667 oh i'm not able to find that no worries then this one coming in from not mod bruce wanes says why do the hadiths prescribe the death penalty for apostates though mid-year yeah so the proper the right position on apostasy is of course in the quran first of all there's nothing in the quran which says that the person who is apostate should be killed when we look at the hadiths we'll see Muhammad never killed any apostates and he actually prevented and forbade people to do that people apostated right in front of him and uh in fact let me see i can give you a reference on that real quick over here if i can find it uh and so yes there is a hadith where Muhammad actually did say okay for the people who are apostates uh they should that they should be killed however well people are forgetting that there's a great deal of leniency towards that in fact i'm going to go and quote for you syria ibn eshaq on that let me share my desktop here real quick and show the slum has a great deal of flexibility and leniency towards the apostates so basically inside this this story over here uh there's a person who criticized Muhammad and he says be just and so of course any criticism of Muhammad is an act of apostasy in islamic sharia law so then it takes basically the person behind said let me kill him but Muhammad said no don't kill him he said in fact the people from his loins that he's going to are going to basically apostate as well and he'll be the he'll be the reason for multiple apostasies and people leaving the religion in fact let me let me read for you very quick rather than paraphrasing said no leave him alone for he will have a following that will go so deeply into religion that they will come out of it as an arrow come out of the target and so you gotta take it all in within context is there leniency towards apostates being killed absolutely and this is the example which i'm showing you go ahead you got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from Ozzie and says yes hinduism is no better than islam good point and also says the 13 countries which maintain the death penalty for blasphemy or apostasy are afghanistan brunay iran malaysia maldives i'm going to mispronounce some of these mirad maritania nigeria pakistan qatar saudi arabia samalia united arab emirates and yemen that's that's that's categorically false there are apostasy laws in india the anti conversion laws in india are anti apostasy laws there are apostasy laws by which vladimir putin actually instilled in russia where you cannot leave the russian orthodox church for a billy graham version of christianity or johova witness you cannot do that several johova witnesses have been murdered in russia and of course there are apostasy laws in china these are all unwritten laws but they're all being practiced so to say that only in the islamic world you have apostasy laws uh-uh that is categorically false you got it this one coming in from you stabbed me with a fork says atheism does not believe in quote do whatever you want atheism has no particular moral system only as a byproduct of atheism being vague what's happening in china has nothing to do with atheism itself i agree this is correct atheism isn't a do what you like thing it just happens to be that people are free and so as an atheist we don't have restrictions from a religious deity what we do have though our local laws in our countries that we still need to conform to just like religious people have to well no the point which i was making of course in atheism moral values are all relative there actually are none it's all just a figment of your image let me finish my point but i didn't want to get into that debate randolph i'm just giving you no i just going to push back okay go ahead okay but what the point why i raised up china is because if people say okay well look at the charlie hebdo massacres look at the people throwing acid in people's face i say listen we got bad apples atheists have bad apples too and so uh atheists need to consider that before they criticize this law you got it and thank you very much for your question i just was pushing back a little bit on this uh what nadir was saying about uh atheism being uh relative morals well actually it's it's up to each individual atheist to decide morality for themselves it may be relative for some it may be something else for somebody else so there's just no restriction under atheism on that you got it and thank you very much for your question coming in from benjamin iota says in saudi arabia execution of apostates is taught as wahib meaning muslims are to carry out the punishment it's not optional nadir is lying well no i think that person's lying i don't think that person knows what he's talking about i have already uh given a citation where Muhammad let this person go he said leave him alone so now who's a liar okay now i've courted you from syria bin asak actually have many references Muhammad himself never killed any apostates and we i showed you the prophet actually said from his loins you will find many people who are going to leave islam and Muhammad was okay with that okay so there's definitely his leniency and mercy towards apostates as well in islam and no scholar on islam will ever deny that although nadir disagrees with me i did point out that 489 does justify killing people who don't believe we already went through 489 you got it and thank you very much for your question coming in from benjamin iota strikes again says and the regimes who carry out the punishments are ran by believers so Mormons are they say Mormons are executing apostates i think that it was maybe an auto correct maybe it was meant to be muslims stop running from the immorality of islam nadir i don't think i'm running from anything everything i have presented i'm almost everything it has a reference either in quran in the hadith or i'm bringing something from islam but uh or i'm sorry from science so i don't think i'm running from anything you got it and thank you very much for this one coming in from azians is great point us muslims are more moral than those 13 countries that i mentioned before such as yemen sadi arabia etc reform the middle eastern ones now nadir and you go reform china go reform india go reform russia go reform all the other countries go reform yourself first and of course we will definitely reform our but to present us as a problematic people no or not there's that problem is all around 65 i think it's okay to uh that apostates should be executed yeah well 49 of evangelical christians think islam should not even be practiced and and would outlaw it so oh i agree that's bad yeah i agree that's bad and i also think that uh 65 well i have not seen that 65 percent which you have presented so you're just quoting things which we have not even looked at so this one from benjamin iota says this guy nadir is just like the rest of them oh my god oh no i'm the worst bad already no i'm the worst out of all of them you've been typecast congratulations you made it it does sound quite brutal they say can't admit the flaws in the religion it's sad and they also say i might as well three because they were sent three in a row they said mohammed is the number is the one who gave the command to kill apostates and tell nadir to stop obfuscating read and well i'll give you this is another verse they want to go to so i'll give you a chance to respond to these first two nadir so i don't dog pile you with questions well the first oh the first one yeah so that is that that has already been addressed um you know there's many mohammed himself never killed any apostates again we're so the basically the problem is they are being refuted and and they're not addressing the arguments which are refuting and they're just repeating the original refuted argument and i've also shown you that from the there was a group of people who criticized mohammed and they were and they asked can i please kill that person but mohammed said no don't do that so there's many references which i've presented which have already substantiated my claims you got it and thank you very much for your question coming in from bedroom iota strikes against intelligent here to stop obfuscating read ann nissai 40 59 or 4059 sura nissau 40 59 you want me to read that over here yeah okay okay let me do that really quick all right they politely request or if you want me to read it and you can respond i'd be happy to do that okay it says over here certainly the hour is bound to come there's no doubt uh 40 this there's no doubt about it but most people do not believe i'm not sure what the point here is i'm gonna i'm gonna type this in just to be sure i'm on the same page and when i type it in and i'm not uh because i let's see okay so you're right 14th uh chapter all i know is this when i type in 40 uh you know that what they requested the it says quote the messenger of a law said quote whoever changes his religion kill him so let me yeah as i said that these are points which have already been responded and they need to basically listen to the refutation uh and so basically i also wanted to quote from the Quran you know just to go back to Randall's point that somehow non-believers are to be killed or something like that uh based upon their religion there's no such teaching like that in fact the Quran condemns it it says and the truth is from your lord whoever decides let him believe and whoever decides let him disbelieve let him disbelieve this is chapter 18 verse 29 Muhammad never killed anybody on account of his religion that's a historical fact Islam has already won the recognition of many peer-reviewed journals in its tolerance to people of other religions so that is why Randall's your interpretation of of chapter four verse 89 is for is erroneous the Quran makes it clear let them disbelieve in chapter 2 verse 256 it says there is no compulsion in religion let there be no force in religion so and like i said this is something which we academics have already commented on this and they have recognized Islam for its tolerance of different religions you got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from madame says if you leave Islam you won't be killed unless you cause rebellion and commit treason in the u.s the punishment for treason is death for you dragging local laws into it fantastic i'm being sarcastic next up benjamin iota says Quran is not limited to the context of the battlefield it's for all times tell him to stop obfuscating okay stop obfuscating on chapter 18 verse 29 i'll read it again for you the truth is from your lord so whoever decides let him believe and whoever decides then let him disbelieve there you go so this shows there is no forcing in religion so they've got to start dealing with these arguments you've got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from sj thomas in long time viewer i don't know sj are you still up this is late for florida time says the dear i've been on the show a few times yeah juicy it says nadir how many jews or and or christians did muhammad have slaughtered how do you compare him with jesus who said those who live by the sword and die that way uh no so basically i don't want to get into christianity and the violence in christianity of course we