Welcome to the wide world of eSports, a show devoted to all things eSports. I'm your host, Catherine Norr. Today, our show is about networking, the power of networking, the value of eSports next. My guest is Makayla Frank, and she's an account executive at eSports Trade Association. Welcome, Makayla. Hey, how's it going? All right. So okay, we're talking about networking today, and we did a lot of networking at a conference in Chicago called eSports Next. And Makayla, why don't you tell us about that conference? Yeah, so it's a conference in Chicago. It's put on by the eSports Trade Association two days. We started with a networking ball game at the Wrigley Field, and then two days of learning about the eSports, the state of eSports, and just meeting other people who have the same interests and all of that stuff. It was very fun. That was my first time in Chicago, and I love Chicago. It's a great place. All right. So I found that conference to be different than many that I've attended and probably the most memorable. And let's just start with the Wrigley rooftop, okay? So I find out when I buy this ticket for the Cubs game at Wrigley Stadium, I find out that we're going to be at Wrigley rooftops. And I'm thinking, how are we going to watch the game from this place next door? And in fact, if you look at that picture of Lindsay and I, you can actually see that's from a deck at the Wrigley rooftops, and you can actually sit on bleachers up there and watch the game. But what's interesting, Michaela, let me ask you, did anyone watch the game? No. I don't think I watched the game at all. Yeah. I mean, it turned out to be more of a networking event. When I envisioned this game and going to that Cubs game, I envisioned sitting next to people from eSports Trade Association and us all watching it, and then maybe having a chance to talk here and there. But it turned out that we were eating and talking. And when I saw you, the picture of you and I, okay, that's kind of interesting. When I saw you there, I said, oh, I'm going to go upstairs and watch the game or go upstairs and see it. And you looked like totally shocked that I would even do that. And I said, I'll be right back. Yeah. I mean, I came from Dallas, so I had a lot of fear of the sun, so being inside in the shade, maybe looking out at the field every once in a while was okay with me. And there was a lot of people there that I haven't met in a long time, so catching up and all of that, I think, was my main goal to be there. Okay. So your goal when you went there, your goal was to actually see people, talk to them, meet new people? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It was like a pre-networking event, so yeah, just a more relaxed way of talking to people than I guess at the conference. I mean, not that the conference was any, was not relaxing. It was just a different atmosphere, I guess. Sure. And so did you, okay, our lives are like this. We're virtual, in fact, I actually was running in a meeting on Zoom, and so what do you think is, is there anything better about meeting in person, or do you think it's the same, or do you like meeting virtually better? In person, I think it's always a lot better, rather than over Zoom, you get to see the person, talk to the person, you know, the environment that you're in really makes a difference too, you know, it depends on where you are, you know, in a meeting room, in a conference center, or at a restaurant, at a Cubs game, whatever, right, like the environment definitely contributes to the atmosphere of like the networking, but when you're just like, you know, virtual, it's cool, because like, you know, you can talk to anybody whenever you can see anybody whenever, but I think definitely it's a different environment.  It's like, yeah, that's it.  Marine, okay. So these moments, yeah, happen on when you're virtual. These in-between moments where you where you're goofing around and taking pictures and and, you know, kind of like having those little side conversations. Like, for example, if our meeting this morning had been in person, I would have a chance to tell you a funny story or a joke around with you or something like that before and after and walk out with you or, you know, those kind of things. And then there's no, no handshaking hugs or anything like that or, you know, Yeah. Selfie together. That's another thing, you know. So let's move on to a very important networking part of that conference. And that is the speed networking, okay, let's keep that picture up, okay. So, Amila, tell us about what we were doing here. It's like a network conversion of like speed dating.  And then, you know, just have like a little conversation and then when the three minutes are up, you get to like, you know, move over and talk to the next person. And then the point of that is, you know, to get to talk to as many people as you can and introduce yourself to as many people you can is, yeah, that's basically what it is, just speed networking. Networking really, really fast. Right. Okay. So now if we, if we bring up the picture again, I'm going to show you something really interesting about this. And I don't know if you know it, Mikayla, when you were doing it. Well, let me ask you. Did you do this? Did you participate? I did not get a chance to. I was doing an interview during that time. So I did not get a chance to. So by the time I was done with that, I was went over there and everybody was already started up like, oh, no, that was the one thing I really, really wanted to do. Okay. So you were, you were doing your podcast, the podcast, right? You were hosting, okay. We'll talk about that in a bit, but okay. So what's interesting about this picture is if you look down that table, there are so many people and the volume got so loud that we could not hear each other. So everyone was shouting at each other across the table. Did you hear that when you walked in? Yes. Yes, I did. I think, yeah, it was very, very loud, but it was, it looked so much fun. I wish I could have done it. Yeah. I think that it's great to do that speed networking. It's just you have to separate the tables and move them away. Otherwise, there is no way. I mean, we were just, I mean, I think everyone's voices were hoarse after that. Well, I'm sure, I'm sure with all the yelling and shouting and things like that, but. But I mean, what we're really trying to do is we're really trying to find out whether that person across from us is someone who might be a good connection for the future. Yeah. Might be able to have a business relationship with them. Yeah, because you never know, right? You never know who you're going to meet. You never know who then, you know, might be a good fit for you. So definitely. Right, right. And, you know, speaking of that, Michaela, what types of people attended the conference? Oh, my goodness, all sorts of people. We had, we had college professors. We have teachers. We had city officials. I think the city of McKinney was there. We had business people, investment people, lawyers, accountants, entrepreneurs. We had, we had so many, so many different people there. It was, it was crazy. I mean, eSports connects so many different industry together. So like it's, it's crazy the kind of people you actually meet there. And we also got to meet the experts. Let's pull up that photo of, yeah. Okay, so I actually wanted that table, the AR, VR and the Metaverse. And what were you doing about what was going on there? So they, we were testing some kind of like audio equipment thing.  And I think they had a problem testing, setting up the equipment. So a lot of it was me going, hello, hello. Can you hear me? Can you hear me? So. But, you know, that meet the expert thing was we had a whole bunch of round tables and they had, you know, a couple experts or one expert sitting at the table and we got to go around, go to whatever table we want and talk to the experts and ask some questions. And when I walked up there, I had no idea what you were doing. I, you know, I thought you were having some, I don't know. I thought you were doing another podcast or something. I mean, I wasn't sure. And, and I ended up not, I mean, I think I asked Brandon that was at that table. I think I asked him, McQuesterner chatted with him a little bit. But that was kind of, it kind of reminded me of the speed networking in a way because of the way that people were like, it was just, you know, quite a zoo in a way, but it was really fantastic. It was really interesting. Organized chaos is what I like to say. So, you know, you know what was interesting to me? And I think in terms of networking, I've never actually experienced this before. There was a couple of things that I thought were interesting. One of them was the announcements at the very beginning when we were talking to each other, like over at the coffee area where the announcements were made, do you not stay and talk to someone for a long time? Move on and talk to people you don't know, right? Yeah, definitely, definitely. I remember that. And I think that held true throughout the entire conference. And I think people actually really did take it to heart because, you know, as people, we tend to stick to people that we know and we tend to speak stick to people that like, you know, we're comfortable with. And, but the whole point of like, you know, going to a conference like that and networking is to meet new people and, you know, have conversation with people that you would not normally get to meet. So I really actually really appreciated that that announcement at the very beginning, the first copy of the conference. Sure. And people were, you know, just going up to people they didn't know. And they, yeah, they did that all the time. And then another unique thing is we have, we had uniforms, right? I mean, we're wearing them right now. That is true. Yeah, these are our gamer jerseys that say eSports next one. And if you show the very first photo, yeah, there we go. That's what they look like. And what's your name on the back of yours, Mickey? Oh, my game attack is Aqua M. Okay, mine is Ninja. Okay, but no one that is awesome. No one can see it because my hair covers it. But anyway, I thought that that also brought people together. And we, there was another thing that was interesting and in that. We actually have committees that make up the association and there were there were tables that had the committee members. And Mickey, you were at my table because we're both on the education committee. And we have some other people. I don't have a picture of that. But but do you how do you feel that that puts people together? Or what do you think about that element of it? Well, I think so part of that is I think a bit of two things. I think one is to show people what like, you know, what the association does and like, you know, having like different committees and then just dividing them up into like, you know, what are you interested in when you within like, you know, I guess, e-sport or the trade associations because we have like research and data. We have events we have fundraising was part of. And yeah, we're on the education committee. So it's just separating, I guess, you know, finding your pack. Sort of thing like, you know, what are you interested in, you know, and then you get to talk to people with like similar interests in you. Or like, you know, if you're curious about like a certain aspect of it, you can get to find all the people who, I guess, you know, are interested in that or have like knowledge within that particular area. So then that you can say, hey, you know, I want to learn more about this. What do you think? Sure. And you know what? I kind of like it better than how a lot of conferences do it where they, people are separated either by clicks, you know, who they like to come out with, or they're separated into companies and you have these situations that I, or regions, or, you know, or they might be like, you know, like in an organization that I'm involved in, you see all the friends hanging out together, you see all the people from their local association hanging out together, or you see, you know, it's divided differently. And I liked how it was divided different, you know, you could move around.  They don't need to travel to do that. So, yeah, right. Okay, so let's show the photo of the pitch contest. Yeah, I think it's also like a really cool aspect of the conference chance to like, you know, I get pitched their idea or company or startup, whatever, you know, at the end of the day, Esport Next is still like, you know, a very business-oriented conference. So, but giving people a chance to do that, I think, is something unique. It's like our own version of like Shark Tank, so. Yeah, and that isn't really a networking bit, but I had to throw that picture in. Those were the judges.  And you know what was interesting about this event is it was heavy on the networking and there wasn't as much content to watch. But that was actually positive because we can do that virtually. What we can't do is meet people in person. And I'm sure that when you were, you were another cool thing is you were actually one of the hosts of the podcast during the actual conference right outside. Did you meet a lot of people that way? Yeah, when I was interviewing people, definitely. I get to talk to a lot of like the panelists that were, that was on, that was doing the panel. I get to talk to a lot like the vendors who supported like the conference. And I think you were like actually my first guess on there. So that was a lot of fun. Right, right, right. Yeah. And I think that that's just another thing to play around with, another opportunity. And I found that kind of like a cool addition. Now let's talk about after-party. You can't go to a conference without an after-party. So let's look at photos. Okay. So this one was the Player X one. And that was a really kind of intimate little after-party that was, they had actually, you could play games and see some tech. And I thought that was kind of cool. What were your thoughts about that one? Yeah, the Gamer House was definitely my favorite. I really, really liked that. I love the chairs at the Gamer House. There's a little lounge chairs. They were amazing. So I think it's, it brought a little like edge to the conference. And the display area by the Player X is also really, really cool. Yeah, I think that's actually, that was a really neat way to incorporate like the vendor space and networking. So sure. And I did meet people in that space. Now let's pull up some other after-party shots. Okay. So this is in the restaurant at the hotel. And yeah. And then there's another one with a big group of people. Yeah. Here we go. We're all sitting around. Yeah, us. Yeah. Yeah.  So there was only one restaurant. So if you go to that restaurant, you actually get to sit with people and talk with them. And, you know, so that was kind of cool. What did you think of that, Micaela? I liked it. I liked the little like, I guess, bar area. Bar area that they had. Like it was like right up front. And it was like, so after you exit the convention space, you know, the bar is right there. So everybody like kind of hang out there a little bit before they went to have dinner and whatnot. So it's a, it's a good place to like, you know, relax and chill and just, you know, recap today or again, you know, like meet people and talk to people. Otherwise, you otherwise would get to see. And there, and you know what? There was actually a little hidden secret networking opportunity that, that some people shared. And that was taking Uber rides to and from different things. Like Dexter Carr Jr., one of my former guests, we took the Uber, we took Uber rides to and from the, the Wrigley Rift Hops event. And you and I and your husband and, and I think it was Noel, we shared an Uber to the, one of the after parties at, I can't remember what it's called. Yeah, the Albert. The Albert. Yeah. And so did you, did you make connections in that, that opportunity? I did. I actually made, made a lot of like connections during there. And actually one of the funniest thing was that during the, the Albert after party, I was talking to three different people. And we all realized that we came from the same town within Texas. But the first time that we met and actually found this out was actually in that conference in Chicago. So that was, yeah.  Now, you know, I had the opportunity to do something really special. And that was, I actually met in person a lot of guests that have been on my show. And so let's look at this picture. Okay. So we've got James Pass and Megan Van Petten. We've got Nicole Dexter Carr Jr. So they've been guests on my show. And, you know, I, it was really fun to do, walk around and take selfies with these former guests. And, and this one, Jeremy, Justin, Zach, Chris, you know, these people were really fun to talk with in person. And they'll probably be guests again. And, and then there was another one, the John Cash picture. Yeah. And, you know, it was very special to meet these people in person. And it was a different way of getting to know them because I've gotten to know them by asking them questions. And then I got to hang out with them and find out what they're doing now. And then I'll have them on my show again.   I mean, we get to see each other, like, you know, in person at a, at a networking event, at a conference. So that's always, definitely always fun.  I don't really have too many key objectives. I just want to get to know the person, you know, hey, what are you doing? You know, and like, what is it? Is it in line with what I'm doing? But even if it's not as cool, like I get to talk to someone's cool. If so, then, hey, you know, like that, that works out. A lot of like, you know, business connections are made that way. So like, I went to a mixer about a few weeks ago. And I got a chance to talk to somebody who was, you know, able to help me scout out like a venue for like a tournament that I'm going to be throwing like pretty soon. So, you know, you never know who is there and you never know, like, what is it, what they do and how they can help you, whatever business ventures you're doing. So sure, sure. So tell us what your, what kind of things are you're working on? I mean, I know now you're, you have an image of yourself. Now you're, you have an involvement with the Texas Scholastic Federation. Tell us about that. Yeah. So what we do is we provide competitions, e-sport competitions for schools within Texas right now. We also provide professional development for teachers within the state of Texas. And yeah, just make giving kids a chance to play, compete and, you know, get that experience, learn, grow, get soft skills and teaching adults what e-sport is and why kids should do it. And you're heading off to an, a tournament shortly, right? Yes. So, all right. Well, always busy. Yeah, Michaela, thank you so much for being a guest today. No, thank you so much for having me. It's been fun. All right. So thank you to our viewers for joining us today in two weeks. My guest will be Tom Sick to discuss improving health and performance in e-sports. See you then.


member statements the member for London West thank you speaker speaker COVID-19 has exposed long-standing systemic problems in Ontario's long-term care homes including the deep reliance on family caregivers to meet residents needs the visitation restrictions have been incredibly difficult for anxious family members and often detrimental to the health of their loved ones the lifting of the restrictions however has raised other concerns among London West constituents and Bigelow wrote that the requirement for a clean COVID test in the last two weeks is just ridiculous if I have no symptoms the test won't say I have the virus and I could just pick it up the next day Tammy Goddard told me her parents were effectively imprisoned since mid-march in their room in a retirement home but we can now take them out bring them back within 12 hours and who knows where we may take them or if I or anyone that sees them wears their mask long-term care home resident Nancy who hasn't seen her family since March 7th said I feel that being 88 years old does not give me too much longer to enjoy my family I'm afraid they will hold off on in-home visits until all the homes are out of quarantine which seems very unfair in this weather I can't go outside because of a bad heart speaker family caregivers deserve visitation guidelines that keep their loved ones safe but that also recognize the essential contribution caregivers make to resident health and well-being thank you speaker thank you member statements the member for Scarborough Rouge Park thank you mr. Speaker throughout these unprecedented times our government has tapped up and shown that it will always fight for and protect the people of Ontario small businesses have been hit the hardest but economic impacts of COVID-19 this is especially true in my riding of Scarborough Rouge Park I recently had the pleasure of hosting a virtual roundtable with small business owners in Scarborough Rouge Park alongside Minister of Finance Rod Phillips and a surprise appearance from Premier Ford we discussed the challenges small businesses are facing and what our government plans to do to help them I also had the opportunity to visit small businesses in Scarborough Rouge Park our local business owners such as Rosa's Pasta Highland Creek Med Spa amigos Fratelli Village Pizzeria River Rows Barbershop and many others are working hard to implement and follow necessary precautions to reopen safely I want to thank the residents of Scarborough Rouge Park in our in for supporting the local businesses in our riding during this difficult time shop local shop safe shop confident thank you member for Brampton Center good morning thank you speaker it's an honor to rise here today speaker on July 6th mayors and chairs from Ontario from across Ontario represented by the Association of municipalities of Ontario the mayors and regional chairs of Ontario and the large urban mayors caucus of Ontario met to discuss the COVID-19 financial emergency municipalities across this province have been hit hard by the pandemic to protect municipal services we need immediate provincial and federal support to cover lost revenue and the additional costs caused by COVID-19 this call for action by Ontario municipalities is part of a national effort led by the Federation of Canadian municipalities to secure at least ten billion dollars in emergency relief for Canadian municipalities to be funded speaker by the federal and provincial governments but yet we have to hear from the federal government and the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing on whether he's going to deliver on this commitment speaker time for a commitment is running out now halfway through the budget year municipalities have no choice but to consider plans to budget the balance budget balance their budget sorry by raising property taxes user fees and charges or cutting services difficult conversations about cost savings and reductions are taking place at council meetings across this province supports to children's family and supports reducing or canceling transit services staffing adjustments these are all cuts that are on the table speaker this province needs to step up when will this minister commit to providing the funding that municipalities are in dire need of thank you remember for Mr. Saga Malton thank you mr. speaker mr. speaker some moments leave a deep mark in our life on Saturday the night of June 20th I got a call from mr. Imthiyaj of Malton must is regarding 62 years old mr. Ijar Chaudhary who tragically died in a police-involved incident we all can agree that any death in our community is a tragedy these incidents have shaken the families and my community and it is clear that more needs to be done peal police with CMHA has mobile crisis this rapid response team these teams respond to the emergency calls where mental health concerns are identified and assist individuals in distress a crisis worker with the special trained police officer provide on an on-site assessment to individual experiencing a mental health crisis I can call on the peal police service board for working collaboratively with the government to expand these type of proven successful programs that will support these those experiencing a mental health crisis including the mobile crisis rapid response teams in peal region I want to convey my heartfelt thanks to Malton must it for financially supporting the family Jamal must it for donating ten thousand dollars and to the whole community for coming together and donating over 128 thousand dollars through GoFundMe to support the family these recent tragedies remind us that more work needs to be done and there is an urgent need for a constructive dialogue thank you mr. Speaker thank you the next statement the member for Davenport thank you mr. Speaker today it is a real pleasure to rise to pay tribute to the people community organizations and small businesses in my writing of Davenport who have gone above and beyond to help us get through the COVID-19 pandemic we have had competing mutual aid groups and care pods spring up to organize help street by street Davenport mutual aid Davenport helps and the cluster at West neighborhood house have been connecting people with food supports PPE and running errands an incredible model that I know will be with us long after the virus sistering shifted location and their entire model to serve a population in desperate need and local businesses have stepped up to nosotalio on blue blue or west has provided free groceries to seniors in isolation sugo in Bloordale delivered food to families in crisis it took a Mexican restaurant on st. Clarence awkward served hundreds of free meals free of charge to frontline workers and those who had lost their jobs and when Casa dos Osores heard about six families in need through working women community center they quickly organized a food drive to help them out a brigo center had extra gloves they donated them to the folks at Oasis Community Center speaker these are just a few of the many inspiring stories of compassion and solidarity that have helped us get through this difficult time I am so proud of my community to all of Davenport's pandemic heroes from the frontline health care and essential workers to the neighbors who banged a pot or lent a hand thank you thank you the next statement the member for Glen Gary Prescott Russell thank you mr. President at Glen Gary Prescott Russell we always have things to celebrate and the pandemic is not going to change this on July 1st a hundred twenty-three Canadians received medals from our general governor and I'm very proud to say that many of my many of my of my writers are on the list the captain Jack Gagne received a medal for his volunteering job and for his help for military families Eve Bertrand received the medal for merit for his work with international optimist Jonathan Pitch Denver received the cross for a merit service and his mother also received a medal I'm very proud of them our community are well known as the best places to live in Canada and it's thanks to our people people like Jack Eve's Jonathan and Tina the first time physically and the second time when your name is no longer remembered I want Tina to know that Jonathan Pit will never be forgotten thank you Tina for giving us this precious gift that has touched us all in a very special way our butterfly child thank you mr. President thank you very much the next statement the member for Whitby thank you speaker over the next 12 years Whitby is set to be one of the fastest growing municipalities in Durham region and as a result we need to ensure that supports are in place for everyone in the community to thrive with the plan expansion speaker of the Oshawa Clinic group to Whitby in 2024 Whitby residents will have better access to the right care at the right time and in the right place this new facility speaker will be a one-stop convenience for the majority of non-acute health care needs and open 364 days of the year as the member provincial parliament for Whitby I'm proud that this clinic is the largest group practice in Canada it will connect both specialists and family physicians speaker I'd like to thank Transportation Minister Carolyn Marouni and Associate Minister King of Surma for the GTA for helping to release the land for the clinic thank you minister and and Minister Elliott for her leadership on the connecting people to home and community care act and the difference it will make in the lives of patients and families in the town of Whitby thank you speaker thank you very much member for Toronto Danforth thank you speaker speaker there's huge anxiety and growing anger amongst Ontario's parents particularly women that school and childcare will not be there for them and their children come this fall through the height of the pandemic I was calling into my writing I would talk to families where either both parents were essential workers both were working at home or a mixture they were looking after their children at home and they were stressed to the max speaker on top of all of those stresses they didn't know if childcare or school would be there for them and their families when they were called back to work and right now it looks like it's not there childcare centres can't figure out how to make the finances work if they have to have fewer children in the centre for health reasons less than two months to go before schools reopen we don't have a solid plan and one of the substantial options on the table is a hybrid where children go to school half the time without childcare without full-time schooling parents can't return to work and speaker what that will mean most of the time is that women will not be returning to work and that's a disaster for them personally and for this society we're not in the 1950s women are not expendable fund childcare so they are viable take the necessary steps in staffing and space to make sure that students can go back to school full-time don't abandon parents thank you remember for Barry in a spill thank you it is my privilege to serve the people of Barry in a spill in this legislature and I'm really proud to serve this year marks the 200th anniversary of the town of Innisfil yes minister mr. Speaker the town of Innisfil is older than the Dominion of Canada in 1820 the first European settlers to Innisfil were the Houston family who came by way of the Holland River and beautiful Lake Simcoe to settle in what is now Big Bay Point the famous location of Davidson's restaurant and I know our deputy mayor Dan Davidson really wishes you could celebrate this coming year soon after that though mr. Speaker John and George Warnock and John Clayton led the through their work led to the creation of not only Highway 11 but also what is now known as Young Street their pioneering spirit demonstrated that the you know alling accomplishments and while the land that they settled was not was fertile these families did not have to overcome they had to overcome many unforgiving challenges to survive day to day when I think of everything these settlers live through and the everyday conveniences which we enjoy today they lived without I'm inspired by the tenacity and and and they're able to overcome challenges on this day we celebrate the 100th birthday of Innisfil so for me to all of the Innisfil residents have a happy birthday remember our great history those that came before us and of course the present presence of our indigenous peoples in Innisfil happy birthday Innisfil thank you member statements the member for Cambridge thank you very much mr. Speaker good morning mr. Speaker our government recently gave business owners and workers another tool to increase their confidence so that they can get back to work safely and like I said during the many consultations I held in my writing of Cambridge employers and workers know their workplaces best I also heard that a guidance document would be helpful in preparation for reopening which is why we introduced the first ever Ontario general workplace guidance document this guide will help employers protect their employees and others from the spread of COVID-19 in the workplace the guide comes of the template that they can fill in to develop a unique COVID-19 safety plan that caters to the needs of their workplace our materials help them identify risks determine a safety plan and communicate the actions being taken to others in the workplace in addition to our workplace safety guide we have released over 130 sector specific guidance documents to help support employers and workers mr. Speaker the health and safety of workers and others is our highest priority our government is committed to protecting the people of Ontario and supporting businesses during these unprecedented times our workplace safety guide will help Ontario move forward from this crisis and safely reopen thank you mr. Speaker that concludes our member statements for this morning


OK, ladies and gentlemen, it gives me great pleasure to introduce our next speaker. Barbara Ray-Venter comes to us from California. Barbara has a PhD in biology from the University of California in San Diego, and she's a member of ISOG, the Monterey County Genealogy Society, and she's a retired intellectual property attorney who specialised in patenting biotechnology inventions. Now, Barbara has been interested in genealogy for many years and in genetic genealogy for probably the last 10 years or so as well. But Barbara has been doing a lot of work with law enforcement agencies in the US and has been instrumental in identifying the Golden State Killer among other projects that you've worked on as well. So please give a big warm welcome for Barbara Ray-Venter. Well, thank you, Maurice, for that nice introduction. And it's very nice to be here and have a chance to present my work to all of you. So the topic of this is cold case solved, identifying offenders and victims of violent crimes. And this is, of course, using genetic genealogy. It should be on, yes. Try it again. There we go. So traditionally, genetic genealogy has been defined as being the application of genetics to traditional genealogy or family history research. But in fact, genetic genealogy is not just for family history research anymore. It's now being used for a number of different applications in addition to family history research. So direct consumer tests are being used for finding both relatives, for example, by adoptees, donor-conceived people, and living victims of violent crime. It's also being used by law enforcement via the development of forensic tests which allow the creation of the same kind of file that is generated by the director consumer companies for upload to jet match. This is a SNP file and you've just been hearing about SNPs from Maurice. And so in this case, you can now start identifying unidentified victims of violent crime and you can also identify perpetrators of violent crime. But there are some differences in how these different groups of people are treated. Even though, as I'm going to show you, the technique that is used in every case is identical. So if you have somebody who is a living adoptee or somebody who is donor-conceived, they're okay to test at any of the consumer companies and of course they can also upload their data to jet match. This is even though in many cases for adoptees, anonymity was promised at the time that the child was adopted. And also for those who were donor-conceived, anonymity was guaranteed to the people who donated eggs or sperm in order for the child to be conceived. Living crime victims, it's also okay to test them anywhere. I'm going to talk about one project in which I was involved, what I call the Lisa Project, where I identified a woman now in her 30s who was abducted when she was about six months old and had no idea either who she is or where she was from. It's also being used to identify, for example, Benjamin Kyle. In his case, he had been beaten up very badly, dumped unconscious behind a Burger King, and when he was revived in hospital, he could not remember who he was. But genetic genealogy was able to identify him. Nobody was concerned about him testing anywhere. But then if we start looking at people who are deceased crime victims, or we're looking at perpetrators of violent crime, suddenly the door slams shut, and those people, or at least those DNA samples, cannot be tested in any of the direct-to-consumer companies, and about the only place that they can actually be identified is using GEDMATCH about what you've been hearing a lot. So this is a quick reminder for those of you who haven't taken biology in a while, although Debbie did give you a quick refresher course. You have 22 sets of what are called the autosomes. You've inherited one copy of each pair of these chromosomes from your mother and one copy of each pair from your father.    And as you've already seen, with this technology, you can then look at people who are related to you probably back as much as seven generations. If there's a lot of endogamy in your ancestry, in other words, you've got many cousins marrying cousins, then it's quite possible to actually get a little bit further back. What happens at each generation is that you're inheriting half of your father's DNA, half of your mother's DNA. So the DNA that he inherited from his parents, you're only getting 50%. So there's a dilution of 50% going here, 50% here, and that's happened at each generation. So let's take a look at who the players are here. In the U.S., there are four major testing companies. We've got Ancestry, New Kid on the Block My Heritage, which is actually an Israeli company, Family Tree DNA, 23andMe. And then I'm throwing in here JetMatch, although JetMatch doesn't actually do any testing. It's a repository for the DNA files that have been created at each of these companies and also actually several other companies. Their data files can also be uploaded to JetMatch. So depending on which company you test it in, of course, the source of the DNA if you're doing direct-to-consumer testing is either at Family Tree DNA or at My Heritage. It's going to be a cheek swab. If you've tested at 23andMe or Ancestry, then you need to create a spit sample. This then is analyzed using a chip, and on here you can see the results of the testing. So what's happened here is the DNA has been extracted from the cells that were in the sample that you sent in. Copies have made of that many, many thousands of copies of your DNA in a step called amplification. And then the DNA that has been amplified is then incubated with this chip, and then it's scanned by a computer to look at what SNPs you have available in your particular sample, and then your results are compared against everybody else in that company's database. And it was mentioned earlier, if you're somebody who is, for example, adopted or you have a particular line you're interested in, in order to maximize your chances of finding whoever it is you're looking for, you want to test it all of the companies, and also upload to JetMatch. Forensic samples take a little bit different path. You're going to have several different sources of potentially of autosomal DNA. It could be tissue, maybe some liver sample. It could be a blood sample. It could be bone. It could be a semen sample. And I've been working with a lab which is actually able to get autosomal DNA out of rootless hair. The analysis can be different, or it can be the same. There are a couple of companies that will do SNP arrays on forensic samples. One of them is DNA Solutions. The other one is Gene by Gene, which is actually the parent company of Family Tree DNA. They have just recently started offering forensic testing. The other possibility is to do whole genome sequencing, which Maurice mentioned. There's a company called Full Genomes that does that. And then from the whole genome sequence, they're then able to use an algorithm to extract from that enormous file the SNP data that is comparable to the SNP files that are created by the director, consumer companies. Of course, in this case, the matching is not within the company's database that's done the analysis. It's through JetMatch. So what is JetMatch? It doesn't do any testing. It's just a public database. There are actually two forms of the database right now. There's what I call Classic JetMatch, which is, if you've tested at Ancestry, at Family Tree DNA, or at MyHeritage, that's where you would upload your raw DNA data file. And there's a new version of JetMatch that's called Genesis. And this is for folks who have tested with the new chip at 23andMe, the version 4 chip. And then also living DNA. And if you want to help the cause of catching a criminal, please upload your raw DNA files to JetMatch. I use it mainly to run matching on my forensic samples. I also, there's a utility on there for estimating eye color and also admixture, which is the term that's being used for ethnicity. So this is some of the things that are available on the JetMatch site. There are quite a number of utilities, besides the ones that I usually use. So this is the Classic site. Here's the Predict Eye Color. And then here's the Admixture. But as you can see, there's all kinds of other things that you can look at. You can see if your parents are related. You can look for people who match maybe one or more kits or two or more kits, excuse me. Or you can even do a multiple-kit analysis. This is then the menu on the Genesis site. This is still a beta site. They are in the process of trying to migrate over the folks who are in this database over to Genesis because at some point all of the companies will be using GSA chips. You can see that the tools that are used are very similar to what are available on the Classic site. They also, on both sides, offer what they call Tier 1 testing, or these utilities. And so for a small donation, I think it's $10 a month, you can actually get some much more advanced tools from a much better one-to-many comparison. It has hyperlinks to the information that you might want to retrieve on here. And they also have a very interesting option that's called Lazarus. And so what you can use Lazarus for is to actually, if you have a deceased family member, if you have had enough relatives who test, you can actually recreate somebody. So my father is deceased. He was actually going to do DNA testing for me, and quite literally the kit arrived in California the day that he died in New Zealand. But I've had a lot of my paternal relatives test, plus I have two brothers. And so I was able to upload my brothers and my paternal cousins to this Lazarus utility and actually create a virtual version of my father's DNA. I don't have a lot of matches on Genesis. This is actually a really spiffy new tool that was developed by Kitty Cooper. And so what it allows you to do is take your top 20 matches that you have. And this will just, it will automatically then do a chromosome map for you as to how people are matching with you. If these were big matches, you could be really excited, but they're unfortunately very small matches. Because you can see I've got several little clusters of folks who are all matching in the same locations on several chromosomes. So unfortunately I just don't have a lot of good matches mainly because I'm an immigrant in the U.S. And even though this test was done by living DNA, most of the people taking it I think still are primarily from North America. But it's a really spiffy little tool. And you've already seen this. This is looking at the huge number of people that have tested. I'm going to be talking, as I said, about the LISA project. And the LISA project I did back in April which was March of 2015. You can look and see the number of people that were in the databases there. Not very many. And if you compare it to now, so back there, even 23 and me and Ancestry were less than a million. Family treaty DNA is not even, it's barely off the ground here. And GenMatch, I don't think it was actually, GenMatch maybe had, I don't know, 250,000-300,000 people at that point. You see with Ancestry, they're up to 10 million. It gets sold. This is as of August of 2018. This is in, it looks like, April of 2018. 23 and me was reporting around 5 million. I think they're now up around 6. You can see my heritage is out here at about 1.2. I think a 1.3 million. Here's GenMatch at 1.2 million. And then Family Treaty DNA down here is a little bit over a million. So just enormous numbers of people in these databases. There are a couple of places that you can go. You've already heard of one of them, a DNA painter for looking at when you do get matches, figuring out how somebody might be related to you. Are they a half-sibling? Are they a cousin? Or what are they? I'm a suit changer with a group called DNAadoption.org, and we actually have our own little site that we've been developing. It's a beta site, so it actually might disappear at some point, but you're welcome to use it. It's a little more precise than DNA painter, because in addition to putting in the amount of total matching DNA, you can put in information about the largest matching segment. And so it gives you a little bit better information about the matching. So this is the DNA adoption site. For those of you who would like to learn more about the methodology that I'm going to talk about today, we've actually been teaching online classes on this methodology since Ordisemble DNA became available. And that's around about 2009 or 2010. So this is not a new technology. It's an old technology. And so you can actually go onto the website and click on classes. So we offer two levels of Ordisemble DNA classes, and we also offer a class on why DNA. We also have on the site some free classes that are called First Look, which I'll show you how to use the various websites. So for example, there's one on each of the testing companies, sort of to show you how to navigate around the site. And there's also one on Jetmatch. So back in March of 2015, this webmail came in to our website. And one of the things that I do with DNA adoption is I answer the webmail. And so this came in from a deputy, Peter Hedley, in the San Bernardino, California, Sheriff's Department, Crimes Against Children Detail. And what he wanted to know is if the technique that we are teaching to adoptees to help them find their birth relatives could this same technique be used to identify somebody who didn't know either who she is or where she was from? And I said yes, and I volunteered to work on this project. And this is actually how I got myself the most in doing things with law enforcement. I retired, I'm supposed to be working in my own family history. And somehow I've ended up getting sidetracked into these other projects. So the first project then was to solve who Lisa Jensen is. This was the name that her doctor had given her. It was a time using the alias Gordon Jensen. And so my first project then was to identify who she really was. And of course what I didn't know when I volunteered was that this was not going to be a typical find somebody's birth parents kind of case. It's kind of had a life of its own. So I identified Lisa's mother as being Denise Baudin. And she was from Manchester, New Hampshire. She's missing potentially an additional vector. This is the person who abducted Lisa. And I'm going to tell you a little bit more about him. As you can see there are a number of aliases listed up here. So he went by Robert Evans, Bob Evans, Gordon Jensen, Gordon Curtis Jensen, Curtis Kimball, Jerry Markerman, Lauren Spanner. And actually there is another long list of names that he used. These are all stolen identities. He was an electrician and so he actually worked on a number of home improvement types of projects. And he would apparently steal identities while he was working on somebody's home. So at the time that he was caught up with nobody really knew who he was. And I'm going to talk a little bit about the Allentown Four and my attempts to identify who they are. Actually it turns out additional victims of Gordon Jensen. Their bodies were discovered not far from where it turns out that Gordon Jensen was living in New Hampshire. And then I'm also going to talk about the Golden State Killer and how he was identified. So as I said at the beginning, the technique that is used is really, you can think of all of these cases as being cases of unknown parentage. And so the technique that is used is identical in every case. It's a technique that we, at DNA Adoption, call the methodology. It's also called DNA segment triangulation. And it was actually originally developed to help adoptees find their birth relatives using multisomal DNA. So what is DNA segment triangulation? If two or more people match with a third person on the same segment of DNA and, and it is the end that is important, they all match with each other on that same segment of DNA. And they've each inherited that shared segment of DNA from a common ancestor. And if you remember when I put up a little chromosome map from Genesis, I circled the places where there were people who had overlapping segments. So if those people had matched each other on those segments, then those would be one common triangulation groups. So I'm going to show a rather complicated slide. It's just important to follow the logic of what I'm doing with this kind of analysis. You don't have to actually understand the mixing and matching that has gone on with the DNA. So we inherit 50% of each of our parent's DNA. And as was mentioned I think by Debbie, basically then you're getting 25% of your DNA from each of your grandparents. And so you can use this kind of information to then try and figure out which ancestors you might be related to in what way. So let's take a look then at this rather complicated slide. So over here, these big tall things are the autosomes. So for each of these people here, you're seeing you've got two copies of each chromosome. This could be any one of the 1 through 22 chromosomes. You've also got the Y chromosome. So the son down here, he's got his Y chromosome, which he's inherited down the paternal line, virtually unchanged from one generation to the next. We've also got the mitochondrial DNA represented by the circle here. And again, this has been inherited down his paternal line because the son inherits from his mother. This does not pass it on to the next generation. Again, this has passed on virtually unchanged from one generation to the next. The big difference with the autosomal DNA, and that's what all of these little colors are showing, is that this has recombined at each generation so that you end up with a different random mix. In fact, if there were more children here, they would all have different random mixes of the parental DNA. So if we're going to assume in this situation then that our son here has matched with two people in whichever company he is tested with, and he's matched with them as second cousins on this piece of yellow DNA. If we trace up here, we can see where he got that yellow DNA from. It came from great grandma up here. So assuming that there's nothing untoward about the family histories of the two people matching with, they are both going to have great grandma in their family trees. So how do we use that then to identify somebody of unknown parentage? Well, we basically just reverse the process. So let's say that son now is somebody who's an unknown perpetrator. He's got second cousin matches with two people, and we're trying to figure out who he is. Well, if we build out the family trees for the two matches, we're going to find that they have a common ancestor of great grandma. And so since son is sharing DNA with these two people, we know that he has to be a descendant of great grandma. So what we do is we then build out, having identified, and we call this the most recent common ancestor, and build out the family tree for this couple. And then we go down and we then identify a series of people who are descended from this person. We then look at that list of candidates for who our unknown person is, and we then apply some kind of a profile to those people. So it can be geography. It can be the color of their eyes. It can be whether they're bald. It can be any of a number of different things that you can then use to identify who amongst those candidates is the person you're trying to identify. So let's take a look at that in action. So you make a little profile of who you're trying to identify. Well, for Lisa Jensen, we actually didn't have much. So we're going to try and identify who her biological parents are. Information. We have no idea what her name is. We have no birth date. Based on her dental development when she was recovered in about 1986, it was believed she was probably born in about 1981. We had no idea where she was born, whether it was the US or Canada. The person who abducted her had quite literally been all over the US and up into Quebec, Canada around the time period when she had been abducted. We had no place of residence. Her last known address was in Scotts Valley in Santa Cruz County in California. So all that we really had for her was her DNA. But I was able to identify her mother, and this was a woman called Denise Baudin. She was from Manchester, New Hampshire. Denise and her infant daughter Dawn had been missing since November of 1981, and they had never been reported missing. The person who abducted them, it turns out, had told family members that they were going to be leaving town because they owed money to various people and so not to worry when they took off. So I just really want to quickly throw in an acknowledgement. There were great many people who worked on this project as I said it was done back when the databases were a lot smaller.  Part of the problem was that her ancestry on one side of the family was French-Canadian. Very large families with lots and lots of children. We actually printed out the descendants from our most recent common ancestor, and they printed out was seven pages landscape all taped together to print out all the descendants. So it took us a little while to sort out all those families down from our most recent common ancestor. So I had a lot of help. I had Janelle Davidson, who's a certified genealogist in Monterey, which is where I live. We also had a great many of Lisa's genetic cousins pitch in to help, and we also had members of our local genealogy society, and Dick, who also helped to work on this. I personally put in about 3,000 hours. So this was really, this is when the story started sort of taking some twists and turns. So I've now identified Lisa's mother as Denise Baudin. Denise is missing, but it turns out that Denise's father is still alive. And we were able to do autosomal DNA testing, which showed that in fact he is Lisa's grandfather. So I had worked, I had built some trees to try and identify who Lisa's father was, and so we asked the grandfather, you know, so who was her father, and he said Bob Evans. And I said, no Bob Evans in the tree that I've built, that's not the right name. And so law enforcement then showed him a picture of Gordon Jensen, and he then identified him as in fact being Bob Evans. So the person who abducted Lisa had been Lisa's mother's living boyfriend. And it turns out that Bob Evans worked for the owner of some land next to a place called Bearbrook Park. This is in New Hampshire. He worked as an electrician, and after doing some work on sorting out who this character was, they determined that he in fact was the killer of the Allentown Forest. So this is a facial reconstruction of the Allentown Forest. So we have an adult female, we have two little girls who are mitochondrally related to the adult female, and then we have a third little girl. So right now I actually hope to have the results by today. We have sequencing running on these folks, so I'm hoping that we'll have an identification within the next couple of weeks. So of course one of the thoughts that occurred to everybody was that possibly the adult female was Denise Baudin. So CODIS testing was done on the Allentown Forest and it showed that in fact the adult female was not Denise Baudin. But a huge surprise, the youngest child, or at least the middle child, the one who's not mitochondrally related is Bob Evans' daughter. This has been so difficult to identify the Allentown Forest. Well unfortunately their bodies were out exposed to the New Hampshire winters for a very long time. They were in two barrels in this place called Bearbrook Park. The first barrel was discovered in 1985 and that contained the dismembered remains of the adult female and the eldest child. They were wrapped in some kind of plastic tied with electrical tape. The second barrel was not discovered until 2000 and in that one was the two youngest children and one of them being the younger child who's not mitochondrally related and Evans' daughter. So because they'd sat out there too long, obviously the DNA is horribly degraded. What we've done is we first of all started using bone and that was very heavily contaminated. It was only 2% human DNA. The rest was bacterial. It was not practicable to really amplify further the human. It could be done but it would be extremely expensive. We do have autosomal DNA that we're sequencing from the liver of the eldest child and then what we're using because we did several rounds of trying to get useful DNA out of bone and failing we tried something different. I saw a newspaper article in the San Francisco paper about a professor at University of California at Santa Cruz who had identified a little girl who had been found in a glass coffin in the basement of a house undergoing renovation and he had used ruthless hair to identify who she was and so my eyes popped open when I saw that and so I gave him a call and so he's actually has done the work on pulling out the autosomal DNA from the hair shaft of then the adult female, Evan's daughter and the youngest child since we don't have any other tissue that we can use for them and we're now in the second round of processing on that DNA. The big problem with the autosomal DNA from the hair shaft is it's in very small fragments. They're mostly less than 150 base pairs so the only technique that you can use with this is doing whole genome sequencing. So then one of the questions was then who was Bob Evans? He had multiple aliases that he'd been using since about 1981. I was able to get a sample of his DNA. He died in prison in 2010. California autopsies, all of its deceased prisoners and so I was able to get a blood card with his DNA from which we then extracted the autosomal DNA and obtained a snipper ray which we then ran in a jet match. So it turns out that who he was was actually a guy called Terry Rasmussen. This is what the data from a jet match looks like. We didn't have much in the way of matching. The biggest match that we had, it's very hard to read on here was 115 centimorgans which is maybe a second cousin once removed probably about a third cousin. So lots of trees to build in order to figure out who this guy was but we were able to do it. In the process of building the trees we discovered that he had three children and so we were able, once we'd identified who we thought he was the detectives went out and got DNA from his son and confirmed that he was in fact Terry Rasmussen from Colorado. Of course I am way ahead of my slides. What I had done is to identify him I had actually built a profile and this was actually kind of interesting because when I identified Denise Baudin as being Lisa's mother and called the detective on the case he called me back a couple of hours later and he said she doesn't exist. Well I knew she existed because she was in her grandmother's obituary and also her brother's obituary and she was in my tree. So it turns out that the law enforcement databases at least in California they are compiled from driver's license records from voting records and so on and so since Denise presumably has not been driving her voting since 1981 she was no longer in those databases. So I used that piece of information for Bob Evans I asked the question since he's been using aliases since 1981 is he also going to have disappeared and they said probably. So what I did as a first screen was to look for people who were disappeared so maybe in Ancestry you could find both records or maybe even a marriage record but then there would be nothing else there would be no voting records there would be no listings in public directories and so on and I used that to try and find men who might be Bob Evans wise. I also knew that he lived in Texas and California and Hawaii and I knew he was an electrician and so after having applied our little screen from somebody not in the contemporary databases it did come up with a candidate. It happened to have gotten divorced in San Mateo County which is just a little bit north of Monterey where I live were able to get a copy of his divorce records and this particular person we had identified was an electrician so we contacted the deputy and then the part that I already gave you about checking the son we did at that point to confirm the identity. The other thing which was kind of interesting is that we had found high school yearbook pictures from when he was in high school in Arizona and the folks who were working on this and law enforcement they were real excited about the pictures they did age progression on them and said yep that's him it matches the match shots and I said wait a minute I want DNA so that was then when they ran out and came with me and got some DNA from the son to run in CODIS. So what this showed was that Terry Paytter was a serial killer. He'd go into prison for killing his common law wife in San June dismembering her and burying her in the basement of her house under 200 pounds of kitty litter. He has obviously he's now being determined to be the killer of the Allen's Town Four.  This work was also done in collaboration with Janelle Davidson and she did a great deal of the work relating to determining that in fact she obtained the marriage records and the divorce records and so on so she was just an enormous help in sorting out who he was. So let's now talk about the Golden State Killer.   Attributed to him are 13 motors, more than 50 rapes and over 100 burglaries in California from 1974 to 1986. So in terms of building out a profile for the Golden State Killer we knew that the attacks had started in 1976 of course we don't know if those are the first attacks but those are the first ones that we're aware of. So we're presumably looking for someone who was born in 1956 or earlier. Given that these crimes occurred in Northern California primarily in Contra Costa County and then moved south along the coast in 1979 we knew that he probably lived in California possibly even Northern California. We knew from witness descriptions from his rape victims that he was fairly tall and had blonde hair. From his eye color, from deadmatch, I got pale blue gray. I also actually ran his DNA through Prometheus and they also said his eyes were blue. So these are 13 of the known motor victims for the Golden State Killer. This person here is the most recently identified and so he actually confirmed that not only were the East Area Rapist and the Golden State Killer the same person but also the Visalia Ransacker because he was killed by the person at the time who was identified as being the Visalia Ransacker. So one of the things that I, the first things that I do actually is I look at at mixture because it's going to give me some clues as to when I'm building out trees am I looking at the right people in terms of identifying the person that I'm going after. So they happen to have actually done testing with Parabon before I was working on this case and Parabon is a company that does forensic testing for law enforcement and they primarily focus on doing a lot of phenotypic type stuff so what they do is they have a product called Snapshot and it actually produces a stylized kind of picture of what the person looks like, who's DNA it is and sometimes it's actually fairly accurate. There's actually a case out of Texas earlier this year where detectives had used Parabon for their Snapshot and when they received the copy of the Snapshot from Parabon they sent a copy to the family and the son and the family, whose sister had been murdered he looked at the Snapshot and he said that's the guy who sits behind us in church so the guy was then obviously approached and he then actually did get up in church and confessed to the motor. So using the fact that we inherit certain percentages of DNA from our ancestors you can actually then do a little guessing as to who the grandparents and great-grandparents might look like in terms of their admixture. So whoops. So from this admixture we can propose that we've got two grandparents then that are Western European because we've got approximately 45% Western Europe. We've potentially got one grandparent who is Scandinavian, we've got 28% Western Europe and we've also got a grandparent potentially who's Southern European and then maybe another great-grandparent who's Middle Eastern. The biggest match that we had on Gen Match so that's probably about a fourth cousin. So what happened is we started building out trees and we did learn something else in the process of doing this because very quickly the trees that we were trying to build on what it turns out in hindsight were the paternal lines they were heading back to Italy. It turns out that the family when we identified who the Golden State killer was they in fact had been recent immigrants from Italy to New York and one branch of the family had moved to California. So in any event we were able however to develop a most recent common ancestor using the folks who had UK ancestry and had been in the U.S. for some years for some generations and so we were able to actually identify him using a non-Italian line. So it turns out that only a few descendants of the most recent common ancestor had actually migrated to California and so we actually got a list of nine candidates who lived in California and who were of the correct relationship to the matches. So what we did at that point is we decided to do target testing because we had started out so distant from a fourth cousin match and the amount of matching DNA when you're getting out there is very variable. So we decided probably what we should do just to make sure that we were actually on the right track here was to do what we call target testing. So two people were approached and asked if they would do DNA testing for us. We did their testing and we looked at how they matched with the Golden State killers DNA and very fortunately one of them, a woman, she actually was a second cousin match and she had an X chromosome match. So that meant since a man only has one X chromosome and he gets that from his mother, we knew that we were looking at a match through one of his maternal lines. So based on that we were now down to six candidates. So we applied the rest of our profile and one of those was the blue eyes that I had determined from both GEDMATCH and from Prometheus. The FBI ran the DMV records, the driver's license records in California for our six candidates. Only one of them had blue eyes and that was Joseph James D'Angelo. So this is then looking at his tree. So as I said it turned out that the Italian was the Potono line and these lines just kept going straight back to Italy. So here's our most recent common ancestor here in what turned out to be the Potono line that we used to actually identify him. And I actually had the same thing happen with Rasmussen. His Potono line, there were recent immigrants from Denmark and those lines kept heading back to Denmark and we also in his case identified him using only the Potono lines. So the final step when you're doing these forensic cases is that the law enforcement then go out and they run surveillance on whoever it is you've identified and they collect what they call discarded DNA or trash DNA or surreptitious DNA and they test that using CODIS and so they then compared the trash DNA with D'Angelo's DNA sample and got a match of 99.99% probability that they were the same person. So we now identified then Joseph D'Angelo as the Golden State Killer. So again this is teamwork and this was a very interesting team to be working with. There was Paul Holes, for those of you who've seen any of this on any of the social media pages, he has a hashtag on Twitter of hot for holes. He's a very good looking guy and I guess the ladies have appreciated that. I also worked with Steven Kramer out of the FBI in Los Angeles and also Melissa Parasau. It was very much fun building trees with the FBI because it was really pretty easy for them. And then there were two people out of the Sacramento County DA's office who also helped on this, Monica Kozowski and Kurt Campbell. And I'd like to add a congratulations to Monica and Kurt after working on this case, they then went on to solve who the NorCal Rapist was. And I'm now going to attempt to do a link and this is an adoption case I worked on. It's a really kind of a cute little case. This woman, her granddaughter, contacted DNA adoption in the same way actually that Deputy Hedley had done asking for help in identifying her 98-year-old grandmother's both parents.  The granddaughter's father was actually the original detective who worked on the Lisa case. So it was kind of interesting that I was now hoping his mother-in-law figure out who her ancestors were. So hopefully I can make this work. Oh no! Who does that? Okay, well, you're not going to get to see... That's a pity. Oh, wow. I didn't know they did that. They bought stuff like that. He has probably one of those geophysical barriers to that. Oh, that's too bad. Oh, well. Okay, well, I'm sorry I'm going to miss that. She was really pretty cute. I promised to say something about privacy. So people who were adopted, I think most people would say that they have an absolute right to learn who they are. In other words, to identify their both relatives. Using matches to genetic genealogy, or these genetic cousins in the various databases. In her case, she had only tested at 23 and me, but partly I think because she was so old, she had some very close matches and it took me only about five hours to figure out who her birth parents were. There was also a lot of information on Facebook and other social media sites. There's information in newspapers. And in fact, for the Golden State Killer, because I'm a civilian, I was not privy to most of the information that law enforcement had. And so when I was building my profile, I was very much using things like newspapers to figure out information about the sky. Of course, there's also information on ancestry and elsewhere in the form of census records, both death and marriage records and so on. I don't think too much is said about the use of genetic genealogy by people who are adopted, people who are donor conceived, and so on as being an invasion of anyone's privacy. I tried to go back and look at when the sites were first being used by adoptees and I really didn't see too much with people complaining about that. So one of the questions is why then happens to be law enforcement who's doing exactly the same thing? Why is this suddenly a privacy issue? I don't have the answer to that. Obviously, I was actually taken aback by the amount and some of the vehemence of some of the folks on various sites about how this was unethical and an invasion of people's privacy. Because I've been doing adoptee cases for so long, it didn't ever occur to me that anybody would think that this was either unethical or an invasion of privacy. There is a lot of information out there about that DNA is falsely identifying people. From the articles that I've seen in all of the cases that I've read about where that statement is being made, there's a confusion by the folks who are writing these articles between YDNA testing, such as it's used by CODIS or just straight YDNA testing using YSOCH. As you saw, YDNA is passed down from father to son virtually unchanged, and so it's a familial test. It's not specifically identifying an individual. The autosomal DNA, on the other hand, is identifying immediate family members, and you can tell whether or not you've got the right person, based on how closely they are matching with someone, and you can then also run out immediately and do a quick test to see if you've identified the correct person. One of the issues I think is probably different here in Europe versus what it is in California, for example, where certainly collecting Sarptitious DNA is perfectly legal, and the use of CODIS to confirm the identification is also legal in California, and in California you can actually do familial searching in CODIS. Concern that medical information will be re-available, obviously this is a real concern. There are lots of laws in place, at least in the U.S., regarding how genetic information can be used. However, when you actually are doing the matching in GEDMAT or any of these other sites, you're not getting the DNA information. What you're getting is a list of people who share DNA with you. There was an article within the last few days talking about somebody who had been a de-identified person in, I think it was the 1000 Genomes Project, showing that they were able to take her DNA profile and upload it to GEDMAT and surprise they were able to identify who she is. Well, of course they were able to do that. They had her DNA. It was the only way that they could possibly have identified her. They could not identify her without having access to that DNA file. The other thing that I looked at really quickly was this is from the ethical standards that were put together by a group of genetic genealogists in the U.S., looking at some of the things that potentially would be good for guidelines for people who are doing genetic genealogy. One of them is that genealogists can only obtain DNA for testing after receiving consent. And so one of the other issues that has been raised is, well, Joseph D'Angelo didn't give his consent for his DNA to be tested. Well, excuse me. He abandoned his DNA all over Northern California. He has no privacy rights in that DNA. In fact, the DNA belongs to the law enforcement agencies, not to Joseph D'Angelo anymore. And there's actually are numbers of cases on abandoned tissue, tissue that's been removed to surgery, and so on that go along with the same concept that once the DNA is abandoned, then the person does not any longer have privacy rights or ownership rights in any DNA that's extracted from that tissue. And the last point that I wanted to make is that unknown victims, in fact, unknown people in the ancestry databases, and so on with their GEDMATCH database, they don't have any privacy rights. And as I already mentioned, another DNA from the perpetrator is abandoned DNA. I haven't seen the results of your little quiz yet, but one of the things that is really gratifying is there being a number of polls that have been done. I know we're all waiting with bated breath for yours. And they overwhelmingly show that for, if we look at this, if I can do this right, so we're looking at violent is the blue, nonviolent is the orange, children is the gray here, and then missing persons. For violent crimes and for missing persons and for children, people felt that the databases should be used. Creating fake profiles. I'm not quite sure what this is about because I'm not quite sure when I'm uploading Joseph D'Angelo's DNA to GEDMATCH, I don't know who he is. What do they want me to put? Serial killer. This is then looking at companies revealing information with a search warrant that's already in place that they do need to do that. Searching cell phone records, of course, have been released in recent cases on this. And still, there's a very high percentage of people that feel for the same three groups of people that should be okay. And then searching social media accounts, surprisingly, a very high percentage also in favor over here. Thank you. Great. Thank you very much. We're going to leave questions for the expert panel, which is going to follow on now in about two minutes or so. So, fantastic presentation. Great work that you've been doing. We're going to talk about it again in the expert panel. I'll show you the results of the survey, and we will take up this conversation in about two minutes' time. We're just going to arrange the tables up here. So thanks again very much to Barbara. Thank you.