episode 152 we back new year same podcast so make sure you go on YouTube support our YouTube channel YouTube comm slash hell black pot go to our patreon patreon comm such hell black pot like subscribe apple podcast sound cloud wherever you get your podcast that should be there if we ain't let us know but be sure to go to that patreon patreon comm such hell black pot we got a lot of great content coming for y'all this month next month this whole year shawla you know we're gonna make it shake hey our YouTube channel for show me some love I guess you could put most of the onus on us because we are inconsistent yeah regardless I mean if you think about we found it well you know that's why we adjusted man we don't we gonna show that channel some love so be sure to go subscribe to that thing man but if you approach the podcast like you would a book or any other the thing you used to study you wouldn't just listen to it one time you wouldn't just view it one time so there are episodes that you should go back and revisit on our YouTube channel to help us get those views up yeah I'll be re-listening to them sometimes too to see ways we can do better might we got some gems on there oh my man kind of be spending some time you know you can't take a personal to a lot of nonsense on YouTube that a lot have to have to filter a lot of political nonsense I'll be seeing some Huey speeches are like Huey interviews or Jackson interviews that's been up for a you know seven years on like the Afro Marxist page and that's 6,000 that's what I'm saying so who am I real revolutionary theoreticians you know I'm saying if that's how you say the word who am I to feel slightly that you know our episode has been up for a year but also all it takes is one one person who we got a spark who could possibly start across a cadre and serve hundreds and be hundreds of meals started grocery program so I am great no so is for the 256 I actually should talk about we don't have I should focus on we do have so shout out to the folks that have been supporting shout out to all the patrons and I echo your sentiments as it pertains to the strides and the intention that we're trying to re-approach our podcast week yeah so I'm excited to see what we're able to produce and for us to really prioritize this element of political education for organization yeah this is an organizational project and it should be treated as such definitely gonna put some time energy into it especially because a lot of people if you talk to them who come into the doors a lot of times they get familiar with us through hella black you know I'm saying a lot of our funding has came through the podcast and the efforts of making media accessible to transform people's minds from a colonial mentality to a revolutionary mentality you know so for us we looking back and trying to make the adjustments you know for our longtime listeners this ain't the first time you've heard this might not be the last because we always make an adjustments you know we are what they call revolutionary scientists or aiming to be revolutionary scientists and trying to make the necessary changes to bring y'all a good show a well-produced show where y'all can really think with us and hopefully build you know because like the ones you were saying we got a whole program this ain't just us talking saying just us you know discussing news this ain't just us theorizing really it's about us trying to ground everybody who's listening and to creating revolutionary decolonization programs in a locale to ultimately serve the people and transform our condition from a colonial condition to a condition where we is a free free human beings you know I'm saying where humanity is actually respected so all it takes is a little cal side all it takes is a little calm CNN to see where we at I don't know about CNN but you know I'm saying that shows the contradictions that we was dealing with even as it pertains just to today I'm excited about today's episode the content will be covering talking about you know containment strategies and counterinsurgency and giving our analysis on I would say what's taking place on the Red Sea right this is of course being all over mainstream media but if you give me in the west reactionary propaganda from the west trying to save the west and save its capitalist interests if you're getting up if you're getting your information from you know the Washington Post the New York Times SF Chronicle NBC Fox News anywhere and well any one of these Western media conglomerates or any place that is in the pocket or the palm of the west because they're in their pocket whether it be Instagram's algorithms you probably getting some lies or you're getting one side of the story and half truths with us we always try to provide things as objectively speaking because we recognize that in order to read the world of pollution read the world of exploitation read the world of genocide read the world of all the inhumane manifestations of capitalism and imperialism you know capitalism is a national form we have to look up things objectively and so while the west has it's of its desire to give you half truths like you said to spread misinformation we're going to try to give you just the objective facts of course with our new African you know on thoughts and processes I think the new African way is a true way so it's very objective it's very objective it's very very logical irrational so subscribe to the African independence movie you're gonna be to some real truth hey we're gonna put it into reality through our work through our organizing you know so again appreciate y'all appreciate the people who've been listening episode after episode you know still be kind of wild when people come back by gay I just listened to episode 3 I just listened to episode 2 you know and able to get some insight from that you know so can I plug episode real quick yeah go ahead I wrote it down to make sure I forget like in the midst of like all the screenings and then I'm trying to keep up to date and provide analysis on the Palestinian liberation struggle in its latest phase that we did a podcast with Darius that I don't even know if we promoted should we even promoted the last box yeah so episode 151 you should definitely tap in with that that's our late that's our previous episode saw you too and then you should tap in this episode 146 featuring Darius who was a excuse me member of people's programs he sits on our central committee also a bureau lead yeah and he also is a poet a writer so if you've tapped into any of the free the people press magazines you familiar with Darius's work if you follow him on Instagram Twitter you familiar with his work if you see all the garden stuff that we do in people's programs you know that's led by him and a B so y'all tap into episode 146 and I think anyone that's interested in organizing and being able to commit to organization and develop as an individual and as an organizer I think Darius Darius's episode is a good look into what that process has been like for somebody trying to develop into a professional revolutionary in the 21st century in the you know domestic neocolony so it's happened to that so I think yeah this episode is as timely as ever for a multitude of reasons right whether we're talking about again the new heights that the Palestinian liberation struggle is me is reaching or if we're talking about 2024 elections that's about to happen right we were definitely going to be seeing some counter insurgency and some containment strategies so I think us being able to remind folks of what that looks like and or introduce the strategies and tactics of racist of capitalist so that they can be prepared for what they're about to see as it is I think it's safe to say like it's gonna go into like hyperdrive is that fair to say so prepare folks for what's to come and allow with them to make sense of what's already happened and so starting with that we've been named we're already named the term a few times now but what is counter insurgency and I think it's also important for you to talk about the ideology that I mean the count as counter insurgency is the state using tactics any tactics that is available to the state to be able to squash a rebellion to be able to squash revolution right so we oftentimes see military response to counter insurgencies whether it's the National Guard deploying whether it's the police departments deploying we see the intelligence apparatus of the FBI the CIA stirring up trouble usually through informants through rats being deployed into revolutionary organizations or revolutionary groups that is seeking to free the land right so they'll use rats to do the work and cause issues inside so it can you know self-collapse oftentimes we see economic aspects of counter insurgencies as well whether that be funding groups like the us organization to essentially be able to counter the black Panther Party right so seeing that economic aspect of them flooding money to reactionary organizations reactionary groups to essentially you know contain a revolutionary organization or get them into an interesting few with another organization in the street so we is not actually targeting the state even though it's a essentially can become a puppet of the state right we see a social aspect to a counter insurgency through reactionary propaganda through the state that is going to delegitimize armed resistance right we see that time and time again you feel me they try to make the black Panther Party seem crazy they tried to make the black liberation army seem even more crazy because they took up guns and militantly responded right so essentially counter insurgency is quelling a rebellion is quelling a revolution in the streets by any means that they see necessary to be able to stop and to preserve the status quo which is capitalist imperialism right so that is what is governing it is capitalism it's imperialism right it's oftentimes right now it's neocolonialism right so essentially you know funding someone who might look like you but nothing like you and is actually working for the neocolonial the colonial interests of the United States of America so they might get they token Negro you feel me they token Mexican you feel me they token Asian they token indigenous person to essentially be a mouthpiece for the state right so we see that what you know Barack Obama Kamala Harris Cullen Powell Condoleezza Rice right all those people become these quote-unquote icons that they try to use and say oh few in New Africa and you should be like this and that is also a part of like a counter insurgent integration is tactic to be able to get people to buy into the state right so a lot of it is getting people it's a squash the rebellion then to get people to buy into the state apparatus and become involved in the quote-unquote democratic machine yeah so it's safe to say that a containment our account is a counter insurgency is pretty much like the strategy and tactics of shit repression you feel me it's a science it's a science and then deploying a science you feel me this has always been a part of this quote-unquote settler colonial nation it's been a part of transatlantic slave trade we could always you know use analysis like this and apply it in different times of history in terms of capitals imperialism in my opinion can expand a little bit more on I mean you you mentioned the Black Panther Party but what was the actual practice of countering talked about like rats and infiltration what are some other elements of counterinsurgency that we saw in the black like power move yeah well if you look at the Co until pro right the J Edgar Hoover program that started off as you know some anti communism right started off with attacking Marcus Garvey which ultimately led to him being deported if you look at Co until pro the strategies and tactics was to destroy and prevent the rise of a black Messiah right with whatever tactic that they see fit right so we look we could look at part of counterintelligence program especially if you look at Oakland the removal of Merrick College when you feel me from the flatlands in North Oakland up into the hills East Oakland right we could see it also as this war on 7th Street in West Oakland taking out the resources that were in the community right building a bar right building the post office building the interstate like those are all a part of like a counterinsurgent tactic an economic way we're just talking about this funding this economic funding of quote-unquote new initiatives to develop land to develop the land and space in a way that now buys into the greater project of capitalism period was right so it's taking those resources out transforming it and now you have Europeans gentrifier is coming in and taking up the resource right so that's a part of like counterinsurgent strategy as well as like do come until pro you also had drugs being put into the community right the CIA the cocaine intelligence agency bringing in drugs and then getting you know new african revolutionaries hooked on drugs right alcohol being readily available right that was all a part of the counter insurgency right this information campaigns you know lying on the leaders you know I'm saying creating whisper campaigns snitch jacketing you know I'm saying all these different tactics were being used essentially as a counterinsurgent strategy to stop a revolutionary nationalist organization from freeing the land from these capital Euro-American capitalist and period was so it's a wide range of tactics a wide range of strategies assassinations character assassinations you know creating neoclonial actors rats informants you know send people up incarcerating creating political prisoners prisoners of war deportations right any tactic they will use to destroy the movement you know as a part of counterinsurgency and you talk about I think these when we think when we think about counterinsurgency and containment strategies right the ones that really really pop out are always gonna be calling to a pro in all the vicious tactics that fall under that whether you're talking about frameworks whether you're talking about disinformation campaigns where you talk about assassinations right and then of course we can you just name the historical implications of gentrification in the role that that plays in preventing people preventing we don't speak on black people for this right the role that it is played from preventing black people from building community right and having resources within that community to help build some of those institutions and organizations for self-determination right we're moving America to the hills but I think one that we all that we often talk about whether it's just you and I also I think it just comes up in general in spaces that are trying to provide political education is the nonprofit industrial complex straight up right like it comes up but I still don't think we fully wrapped our heads around the role that this is you the role that nonprofits play as an counterinsurgency and containment as a counterinsurgency tactic as a means to employ the containment strategy yes can you expand a little more because I think especially when you talk about neocolonial right in this ploy to integrate and to get people involved in the framework of capitalism I still think we fully I mean that is a part again the counterinsurgency as well as you know like that containment strategy of it right so it's about quelling the revolution but then oftentimes it's also about creating a pseudo revolution you feel me to funnel the people into this quote-unquote democratic change making machine that they call the nonprofit industrial complex you know so you know nonprofits go back you know in the early 1900s to some degree right but we see really the expansion of them as the counterinsurgency really around you know like the 1960s right so you see this whole type of quote-unquote war on poverty right which we also know was a vehicle to hyper-incarcerate new African peoples right but through the war on poverty there was essentially these quote-unquote social programs that were being created to kind of create this quote-unquote social safety net that would essentially you know because if we look at what the party was doing the party was creating survival programs pending revolution this is what we'll do to feed the people until we overthrow the government you feel me to provide so they see you know young new Africans you know brand on shotgun leather jacket and galvanizing the community because they're taking care of the community and it's working as a strategy as a political strategy to be able to actually make change in the community the state was like okay we see what they are doing how do we now as the state create certain programs to co-ops the revolutionary potential of the Black Panther Party and now create these fascist social welfare programs to be able to quell any form of revolution right so this is where we see the rise right so we talk about you know kids being fed for at schools by the Black Panther Party right now is one of the most popular programs you feel me then what happened with the state is now okay the state is going to co-op that and say oh no we're going to feed the kids now come to school right so it's a project of essentially getting people to buy back into this oppressive system because they're caring about you in a social welfare type of way to protect the interests of capitalist imperialism right so they're feeding you based off of that so you then buy into the state and you say hey actually you know they're taking care of my material needs just to a certain amount to where it's actually going to prevent me from rising up it's going to prevent me from engaging in revolutionary activity and they have it down to a certain science but this is a product of fascism right because then as they need this money you feel me to stop the rebellion here in the streets then we see the United States go overseas to make up that profit margin you know what I'm saying so we see that with a war on poverty then in the 1970s in the 1980s where the privatization of public resources through neoliberalism this is really where we see like a huge rise in the nonprofit industrial complex right so we see the government began investing in these social welfare programs at exponential rate you feel me investing in these nonprofits to now where the government isn't seen as responsible in a way right so nonprofits now came in to fill these quote-unquote social welfare gaps right and this is where we see the rise of this what some might call corporate philanthropy right to where now corporations and then we know that the US government is according to US law is a corporation corporations are now able to dictate where funding goes right corporations are able to influence the type of work that nonprofits are doing within this capitalist superstructure this capitalist imperialist superstructure right so now you have essentially you had revolutionary energy now being co-opted through a counterinsurgent strategy and putting the revolutionary energy now into the nonprofit industrial complex right so we're now you have nine to fives in terms of maintaining the social welfare state and this gives the state what I would call kind of like a buffer zone you feel me where the state is now like oh we're not responsible we just gave hundreds of millions of dollars to nonprofits to stop homelessness we're not responsible we just gave millions of dollars to stop to help drug rehabilitation right we put out millions upon millions of dollars through a facebook sponsored school a charter school to make education better right so now it's uh where the quote-unquote government is able to remove itself from a sense of social responsibility you feel me if we talk about a revolutionary government it has a responsibility to communalism as a responsibility to egalitarianism egalitarianism now this capitalist government say no we gave you nonprofits you feel me these nonprofits are now responsible for the social good of a society right so now like if we look at acorn acorn is ran by a nonprofit now rather than actually the government being uh running acorn you know i'm saying to her now the nonprofit is more so responsible and now the government doesn't have to stay to a certain uh regulatory compliance you know so this is a yeah this is a part of that larger counterinsurgent strategy and now you know in 2023 we've seen the nonprofit industrial complex turn into an area where you know it's about careers right it's a reliance on the government for funding it's a reliance on corporations for funding that essentially are being are dictating exactly what you can and can't do as a nonprofit right to where now people become so invested in the nonprofit industrial complex they don't actually want to see it in you know what i'm saying because people are making millions in dollars you feel me running nonprofits people are making hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars running nonprofits you feel me like you said it's the livelihood it becomes a career so you actually don't want to you want to put a band-aid on a gaping wound rather than you feel me stitching up the wound and going through physical therapy and becoming a hundred percent as a new human being healed up you actually just put in a band-aid and you want that wound to keep on bleeding more and more you feel me so then you can buy a bucket to keep the blood and then you do something you sell the blood like these motherfuckers don't type shit you know i'm saying i mean the name the the goal is in the name it's an industry the point of industry is to turn the raw material into a finished product like bought and sold bought and sold ultimately we try to as revolution is we're trying to put ourselves out of work you feel me like we're trying to build a society build a culture a ethos system a system of morality that where all the people are invested in social change all the people are invested in egalitarianism to where now all the people are doing the work for the sake of humanity versus us now trying to build an organization to build up these decolonization programs now it's all the people are involved we essentially put ourselves out of work and other people in full control of their own destiny you know what i'm saying so yeah this is why it's such a danger because it's like hey you know you go to college you get your degree and you know you see yourself as socially conscious then you get a job at a non-profit and now you know in college you might have been revolutionary talking about freedom land now you're talking about funders grant and i'm only voting for those who vote i'm only voting for those who say free palace talk feel me so this is what you know we is dealing with a certain bourgeoisie mentality you feel me of a people who want to see quote unquote a social progression in society but it's still bought into neoliberalism they're still bought into capitalism even though they ain't capitalists themselves but they comfortable with getting these crumbs you know i'm saying if you want to use a quote unquote marxist terminology we're talking about a a bourgeoisie the proletariat that's what we're seeing right now is people still invested in these crumbs of capitalism at the expense of who the third world the masses at the expense of who you feel me the poorest the poor and the quote unquote of the new african community right or the quote unquote month in proletariat you feel me i mean we you've we have to see that historically the non-profit industrial complex the social programs are nothing more than reforms that are born of the that are in response to a rise of consciousness right where you talk about the early 1900s where you get like the new deal under rooseville right where it's like okay we need a new relations we need a new set of relations with the people right like the people's consciousness are raising post the great depression post world war one right like this can't be the same way the people are going to start to demand especially as you see the wealthy beginning to get more right and so where we see the non-profit industrial complex make this like quantitative and qualitative leap in the 60s 70s and 80s like you're referring to is because the black Panther party exposed the contradictions of the social programs that hadn't really been revamped probably since the new deal right and so the goal of NGOs is to provide resources within the framework of capitalism right aid quote unquote within the framework of capitalism none of it is all none of it ever talks about let's create a more equitable system that removes this hundreds of families owning 90 percent of the world's wealth right nonprofits don't do that they say let's let's just funnel more money from this system into these programs that again will do nothing is reform at its basis it's reform and then I think you make a really good point there's something that again we don't talk about enough is the brain drain that happens from these non-profit industrial complex where you get some of the most brightest the most skilled now serving the state right that's what happens you got some of your best and brightest minds with their time that are needed for the new african nation that are accounted that are needed for some of these more grassroots initiative initiatives now you know working for these working for these organizations that'll do nothing more than pander to local and national politicians and when you talk about I think another element that's that's often missed out in terms of you know with a included calls like the welfare state is the role that this plays internationally right because the goal of capitalism these people when you look at the board of these NGOs right we look at the board they are tend to be people that have a keen interest in profit and surplus value right and making the most money they possibly can and so if I'm going to put 10 million into some grant I need to get a hundred million somewhere else yeah and how does that happen exploitation of the third world like yes she'll give the other Gates foundation to put a hundred million dollars towards here they finish gonna make 300 million they're using the NGOs straight up a super structure in where they're able to extract the resources from the continent under the name of quote unquote non-profit under the quote quote unquote development you feel me they're able to extract resources right so essentially what they're doing is money laundering yeah zuckerberg zuckerberg I'm sure if you look at his his shit he probably give hundreds of millions of dollars Elon Jeff Bezos they got to I mean they have to to watch their money they have to say money and to keep and people docile straight up so that they can continue to what they profit we feel me we got to give you like this why I say they have a science down to they think you feel me they have a science they have a methodology into where they're able to test the people and see okay if we give you just this much do you revolt if we give you this much what is your thought pattern you know I'm saying I like these groups are tend to be ran by folks from these communities it's like you they trust you like you grew up here yeah I know I'm sure to I have some sort of legitimacy here in the town you know I've been here there are people who can say I know nothing because since he was a kid I know my grandma I knew when they was having the PRA or they was coming and performing at the sweet sweet 16th free they was holding the cleat checks they was giving like yeah niggas have created some form of legitimacy so now if we go and take a hundred million dollars from the Gates Foundation people will have to assume that we know something they don't know that this must be for the betterment of the city yeah that's what they'll assume and people are able to uh you know ride the tide of a legacy of broken there are some folks who've been now we talked about me and that's only seven years now what about the people who've been here and who are 50 years old who've been organized in the open for 20 years who can say they great they great great grandpa was a longshoreman they great granny worked at Oakland Tech and worked at Fremont and worked at Frick and worked at Hoover and worked at Harriet Tubman used to work at the YMCA they cousin played at Skyline there is some legitimacy there so yeah you should look into me to run this city why wouldn't I have why wouldn't I want the most for it right I look like you are from here whole time with the allegiance to capitalism ain't that some backwards ass thing though because you you're having a like an allegiance to capitalism but you ain't even a capitalist yeah I mean but you I mean you know near Parker Broad told us a while ago you can be you can be an allegiance with the class you aspire to be yeah no but that's what it's such a backwards way of thinking you know I'm saying about Julia talking about that like colonial neurosis like you can actually get with the people you feel me get with the people online with the people and if the masses of people are in control they own destiny you actually materially is going to be better off you feel me like you will have a better life for the future generations of your family like if you actually really apply the science to it all but hey you know it's easy to get that chrome first you know I'm saying and be so caught up in this material world of capitalism so caught up in the indoctrination process of wanting to be a part of this thing that you can't even understand your sense of reality and some people's whole you know a lot of folks be having that like missionary complex you know like this like they hold motive is like this pseudo altruistic thing like a lot of people get power through feeling like it's like a god complex in a sense right like a lot of these presidents and ceo like my clients they be having they be having god complexes though like they get there and not from like a pure way where it's like I feel like I'm contributing to society right that we're like that uh that that that egotistical yeah but like it's the opposite of what's at the core of like a true socialist that true revolutionary humanist like I see you you feel me like as a human being like I got this love for you you feel me because I got the love for myself I love you so I love me and I want us to have the same thing that's not necessarily what it is it's more so like I get all lies that I can get or you know capitalism is about what about status it's about feeding the ego having this sense of importance okay the NGO has created a lane for feeding the ego quote unquote in the name of people mm-hmm so that's why you get people that I do this I do that we do this we do that I do this I do that that's why I try to be so careful around like how I present myself and that's why I've always been grateful you know for the like the music shit is because I can always just tell people I work in music versus like my whole identity being wrapped up in service of people or some like especially in this in this neoliberal shit you got to be careful right like I still have the aspirations of being would you live will consider like a professional revolutionary but you got to just be careful about how you spew this shit because a lot of these niggas ain't doing nothing but uh stroking the egos uh under the guise of serving the masses right so right I think with all of this y'all we got to recognize the non-profit industrial complex there's nothing more than an industry right it's trying to turn this idea and this process of revolution into commerce period point blank it's being used as a tool for neoliberalism like you said earlier where the state can claim it's doing its job by funneling millions upon millions of hundreds of millions of dollars into these quote unquote grassroots initiatives that actually do nothing to attack capitalism domestically or in its international form imperialism right these are all things we have to understand or these things are going to continue to reach new heights if we don't they're going to continue to reach new heights and you know it's imperative that we talk about how it's going to play out now with the uh current stage of the palestinian liberation we saw a play out we got to see it up a close and personal in 2020 well black lives matter yeah where hundreds of million dollars they got a hundred million dollars like 90 something yeah I think it's all really but we know it was hundreds of millions being you know it was upwards right uh where you get 90 million dollars going to the black lives matter and I don't know what they've done on like a programmatic level you know I'm pretty sure they just don't hear nothing from the right you had all these people who were able to capitalize off that time period of 2020 of the protest and get these book deals and have done nothing but pretty much like build their own careers careers and brands you know we saw it and it is I think was so nasty about the palestinian shit though is that there are people who are going to benefit from this here who don't have like at least you know what was happening during 2020 was like a domestic thing you're like at least you're somewhat like there is a chance that you know even if you is a black neocolonial agent and you're running a little nonprofit there is still a chance that you'll have to get put over and get shot by the police yeah you niggas a lot of these niggas who making who building off the pain of the folks in Palestine ain't never going to touch ain't got to deal with the level of repression delay the level of trust that's what's the nastiest about that about that shit that you never will have to come in contact with ideas it'll feel like you never gonna have to really feel the full brunt of the missiles that are being sent over there from the U.S. in the rest of the NATO countries you feel like that's what like that's that's the element of nastiness that was absent from 2020 we're like okay there was still a yeah yeah there's still an element that some of these niggas could get smoked at a protest could get could you know like you get black you get put over you there's still some shit that you had that some of these niggas I deal with but like here a lot of these it's a different type of war it's a different type of war it's just some nasty work but again that goes back to like the containment strategy you know I'm saying of containing revolutionary energy you know I'm saying right because that's what really that containment strategy goes back to the Soviet times right you had the state department advisor and quote-unquote Soviet expert George Kenan essentially describe a policy that would stop like a domino effect of the spread of communism right so we've seen that and it can largely be characterized as economic aid so yeah it's just going back to this containment strategy really which has its roots you know through the state department creating through George Kenan to describe essentially like a policy that would prevent the quote-unquote domino effect of the spread of communism right so they essentially have used the same containment strategy in different time periods but that's when it was really like developed and coined right to essentially prevent the rise of communism the rise of socialism right so you seen like through the Marshall plan like large-scale economic aid to rebuild quote-unquote Western Europe and prevent communist movements from gaining support in the aftermath of World War II you know I'm saying we've seen that containment strategy being deployed in Africa you feel me of the US being able to come in as the biggest victor of World War II when essentially put neocolonial grips over the African continent and control all the resources control the leadership and install pawns you feel me so we've seen this neocolonial strategy that really is characterized by heavy aid heavy financial control of you know even Western European countries where the US has the grip on that we've seen this as like containing you know communism and now they use this same containment strategy has been used even historic way to just stop revolutions you feel me so this is what we're seeing right now which we've seen historically of containing the Black Panther Party of containing the Black Liberation Army right even before they coined the term containment strategy you can even apply that same analysis to what they did to Marcus Garp right containing the movement and then you know essentially providing economic aid to support the rise of a new movement to support the rise of a state controlled neocolonial leaders and neocolonial governments right so we've seen that really being deployed during the Black Lives Matter movement right this counterinsurgency and containment strategy essentially of using state-backed people who are new african who have allegiance to the state to do the job of the state and to get the new african masses to essentially have that revolutionary fervor and that revolutionary fire you know these neocolonial agents come in with fire trucks and pour water over it you know I'm saying so understanding that aspect of how it happened in Black Lives Matter we've seen the revolutionary you feel me fervor the revolutionary fire of people in the streets of Ferguson you feel me the daring seals you feel me was assassinated by the government but then you see the deployment of people in blue vests coming in and taking the spotlight and then saying oh I'm going to run for city council I'm going to go come and vote for me right oh come be a part of the democratic party right so we've seen a lot of times with these organizations coming in funded by the government or funded by corporate interests coming in and saying oh no we are the legitimate people we are the legitimate actors we are the legitimate structures in which new african people should be involved in in order to organize quote-unquote but that organization is always going back into the state right so we've seen that deploy in Black Lives Matter right we've seen these NGOs being deployed these non-profits being deployed and getting people involved in quote-unquote civic engagement within the silver con right so instead of people talking about we're trying to overthrow the police we're trying to free the land we're trying to start a revolution now we see the deployment of these NGOs saying no revolution is through a ballot right we're gonna get involved and we're gonna vote and we're gonna do this reform and we're gonna do this policy change versus no we just trying to free the land no we're trying to abolish the police now it's like oh we're actually trying to become the police in a different type of way and police the people through a non-profit you feel me where it's like oh we're going out here we're gonna be peaceful if you do anything that's non-peaceful we are gonna quote-unquote peace police you you know I'm saying we're gonna have people our own people invest doing our own security and we're gonna you know make sure that y'all is not doing anything that is a threat to the state right so it's again this containment strategy to where we're seeing the same thing now being done in the uh Palestinian liberation movement here in the U.S. right the same tactics that was used on BLM is now being used on in the in the Palestinian liberation movement right so we saw even one thing we saw with BLM was this idea that it was somehow a moral thing to voluntarily get arrested right you've voluntarily put yourself in handcuffs get arrested and then use paying the state thousands of dollars to go to bail or to get bail you feel me they did this in the BLM movement was shutting down the bay bridge like shutting it down and then getting arrested and then paying hundreds of thousands of dollars and bail fee to get put out then paying hundreds thousand dollars on legal fees same thing happened here so we're talking about quote-unquote boycott the state right and boycott is something that's coming up but then you're actually empowering the state you know I'm saying so there's people I think uh good actors of people yeah I'm really trying to do something who can get who can get caught up in that type of uh organizing right but then there's people who are conscious actors who know exactly what they're doing in terms of this what I'll call you know ambulance chasing during the Black Lives Matter movement following ambulance after ambulance killing after killing and doing the same thing over and over again no actual material change happened seeing the same thing happen right now you know so I think it's uh important that we understand how the state will essentially deploy state-controlled activist influencers uh who are designed as well to essentially warp people's mind on social media and get people to buy back into this uh state apparatus rather than uh buying into the people into the liberation of the people the liberation of humanity you know so I think it's uh important that we're able to understand these different tactics that the state uses and be able to attempt to de-force ourselves from these uh colonial tactics and start thinking about what is actually it mean to build for a revolutionary strategy you feel me and what does it mean to actually do this work day in and day out and actually build true autonomy so that the people can become uh the driving force for material change because right now it ain't yeah I don't know there's something uh that I think is really nasty as a paternalist like western egoism where like for real like it's like here we seem to think that we have the ability to I'm speaking just in reference and I'm trying to be very careful about how I frame this but I'm speaking like okay if we talk about that's what I was getting at earlier right where again what we saw in 2020 where you had like these uh paid actors just controlled opposition even controlled opposition if you black there is the possibility you know depending on how tied in you are with the state you know like a nigga could get put over and get smoked on that state you know like or you might have a few an OPD if you an Oakland and you uh you know are pushing for a neoliberal shit and you happen to be black there's a chance that an undercover pig might be following you you not they're not tapped in not knowing that you know you damn your agent of the state unwittingly you know undercover how they get down out here they might pop you you still have the potential to be a victim of the police state right but what we're dealing with here is like where you were I think the element again there's heightened nastiness is none of us have to deal with what's going on in Palestine so for us to think that we can actually be the vanguard that we can actually be the legitimate force at best all we can do is support and we need to be very uh real with ourselves of what our support is actually doing to combat uh the conditions the the settler colonial genocidal conditions of the Palestinians right like we need you need to be rooted uh and like a clear and objective reality and not get too caught up right and that's I don't want to downplay what anyone's doing right like I'm not going to knock anyone who's protesting I think when you holding up the port and preventing uh missiles and whatever any other tech or even fool being shipped uh to support the IDF and whatever other fucking uh paramilitary forces that the United States and NATO listening over there I have to commend that but also just be real about what you're doing and not getting too caught up uh because the west does want to make you think you're doing more than you actually are and I think that's part of that that that west western chauvinism mentality right because even when there was that temporary truce right there were organizations saying we won this we won this because Sean King came on with saying he was helping getting hostages back you feel me like let's be real because he's saying that's what I'm talking about these same actors you feel me these same activist influencers that are backed by the state you feel me the same Sean King that was taking photos with the police NYPD isn't that part of the nonprofit in the part of the neoliberal campaign is to make the people here legitimate and seem as if they have more power than they really do actually bro it's them it's the palestinian resistance that won the truce you feel me like let's be real like let's not act as if they care let's not act as if the government cares about protesting this country there was anti-war protests when he rock happened you feel me the war and he rock happened you feel me it was uh the biggest anti-war protest known to date and what did the United States do history you feel me why people don't understand exactly yes but it's like we get caught up in the emotional without the actual objective western concrete facts you feel me where we get caught up in our emotions the only thing is the biggest thing that's happened this might be the most support that palestine has received for sure which is important that you feel me like it like don't get me wrong i do support protesting right but when protests become essentially in like this rat wheel of going in circles in circles in circles when no actual direction you feel me no actual concrete programs that are being built in the community no actual autonomous uh institutions being built that serve the people in that advanced revolutionary struggle in the united states of america and instead you have organizations that are leading these quote on quote protests saying that we only vote for politicians who say free palestine again this is the part of the containment strategy of saying oh send these people back to voting send these people to buy back into this quote on quote american system of quote on quote democracy but that's what's happening in real time right so it's like yes that's what i'm saying there's conscious actors moving things in certain ways while there's also people who are getting into the streets and politicized for the very first time about imperialism about capitalist imperialism uh that aren't very much familiar with all of the nasty work that's happening behind the scenes to be able to control movements to move them in a certain type of way that actually benefit the west right because reality the reality is historically mass protests in the united states of america they don't transform the conditions it's in a process it's part of the process uh of galvanizing the masses of people but if there's no autonomous programs if there's no development towards a revolutionary struggle and revolutionary organization and building revolutionary programs to where we can actually become our own liberators essentially just going outside and yelling at people you feel me using the war in iraq as an example that didn't stop the war in iraq you feel me the united states of america still has military bases in any rock you feel me so like let's let's not pretend that our protests are the center of why there was a truce or the center of how that's going to stop and ultimately free palestine right the palestinian resistance is going to free palestine and the best way we could support that is by engaging in revolutionary struggle in the united states of america to free the way in from your american sellers you know that's that's again it's that western chauvinism western egoism uh thinking that we are at the center of the world um even you know you talk about the vietnam war it wasn't the anti vietnam it wasn't the anti vietnam war protests here that stopped it was the vietnam vietnam ho Chi Minh what was the black panther party doing to the to the vehicle ready to send people ready to send panthers to the vehicle to support the material struggle while also engaging in uh revolutionary struggle here in the united states of america and again like you i'm not against protests either i just think we have to be conscious about um the impact that they're actually having and before we can even get to what you're talking about building programs we first need to get real and get and get get ready to reality because that's why we've seen the same thing happen brother the same thing in 2020 niggas was talking about abolish the police and then some of these people were saying abolish the police is now working with the police you feel me and since 2020 the police have killed more people every year so what are we talking about and then y'all were telling us to go vote for joe biden what did joe biden do creating more genocidal conditions for palestinians put more police like he was talking about you feel me so again we're seeing the same ploy by the state to get people invested into the state invested in quote-unquote voting rather than rather than being invested in revolution yeah i mean i think the high mark of cognitive dissonance is i will only vote for those who say free palestine again what happens when donald trump says free palestine because the far right is saying this is a part of our agenda now i mean it's just because we want a new wave of imperialism a new age of imperialism it's just what happens it's just missing the mark you know and i think uh joey jackson told us about this yeah i mean ultimately palestinians have the right to build their country as they see fit yeah my politic is anti genocidal you feel me and so i'm against genocidal care with the palestinian like i support palestine not being a settler colonial place of settler colonial nation that's a basic now i'm here if the palestinians say wake up tomorrow and say no we want a two-part a two-state solution right if the palestinians in mass say that if the palestinians in mass say we want a two-state solution we want a nato base here we want this and that that's their proactive i'm still going to remain anti imperialist you know what's what palestine wants is it going to govern my politics specifically right as long as palestinians the masses are pushing the anti colonial anti settler colonial politic anti imperialist politic that's where i'm getting nothing we as folks here in the belly of the beast like you said the best we can do the best support we can give is actually build i think the protest is uh important but to me is how do you support the protest and then condemn hemats you know it's just like she's just getting then you have you have liberal Zionist organizations now being seen as the face of quote unquote protest in here you know i'm saying we've seen like jewish voice for peace a liberal Zionist organization that still believes in the quote unquote state of israel right we have people new africans revealing themselves to be jewish at a time to now never ever spoke about that but now using that as a weapon to be able to get funding writing for the nonprofit you know so we just have to be very clear that's what i mean with the nasty things that are happening i'm saying to use palestinian genocide as a means to come out as i'm jewish thus trying to legitimize yourself i'm black and jewish i should be able to i know that uh this that where you get that whole intersectionality shit when it gets be tripping i'm black and jewish this is my african-american i have the double oppression you feel me like who better than me to speak to how we can heal this straight up time your ass don't know no history on the the historical development of settler colonialism you don't have no analysis on on capitalism and all the material ways that it manifests throughout life that's what we're dealing with here and until people talk about capitalism colonialism neocolonialism settler colonialism imperialism anything else just allows uh anything else is just either going to point us into is going to point us towards integration and allow the system to continue to grow yeah what are we doing to actually combat imperialism here and that's that's that's what we have to ask because that's who the true enemy is and uh hey i think uh this is a perfect time as we talk about the true enemy as we talk about folks not getting caught up in uh western propaganda western chauvinism and missing the mark and cognitive dissonance when we talk about what's actually happening to combat imperialism we have to talk about what's happening in the red sea straight up without questions straight up we see in revolutionary anti-imperialist movements uh that is showing humanity what how to truly be a humanitarian you know revolutionary humanism one of its highest forms right my personal straight up you know we're seeing revolutionary muslims engaging in revolutionary solidarity with the people of Palestine even if it means themselves being hurt you know so looking at what's happening in the red sea uh how have you made sense of this recent military actions taking place in the red sea and how do you see the actions of Yemen and Iran as anti-imperialist well first i think uh i look at first i'll talk about like the west right i look at the actions of the united states in the uk that was last week they they bombed some ships in Yemen right i look at that yeah they bombed Yemen yeah they bombed Yemen i look at that and targeted ships as well i look at that as in an effort to advance western imperialism right western mercantilism right the ability to amass wealth and trade i look at that as actions directly linked to their support of israel and settler colonial genocide right the actions of the west are what's necessary to maintain this type of society when we talk about the world first day let's go be when we talk about the world first day this is what's needed for us to have the nonprofit industrial complex this is what's needed for us to have laptops for us to have the phones for us to have the cars for us to have the clothes for us to have the movies for us to have the football uh for us to have the work from home from us to have all elements of our society the united states in the uk have to do what they're doing they have to support israel they have to seek to neutralize the indigenous revolutionary rebels, right? For the imperialists to thrive, the highways of commerce must flow, and the indigenous rebels have to be wiped out, period, right? And so I personally believe, right, anyone who's anti-imperialist should be supporting the actions of Iran and Yemen, because what they're saying is we will not allow, again, if you have an analysis, you recognize right where Jalil says in phase three of the three phase theory, the strength of the new African nation will be felt in armed struggle, and as well as a strangling the US economic system via mass strikes and demonstrations. Well, what's a higher form of demonstration? What's a higher form of strike than blowing up your ship to where you can't trade? What's a higher form of demonstration, a higher form of strike than making sure of these missiles, making sure this food, making sure this technology, this equipment can make it to Israel? What's a higher form of that than blowing up a ship and killing them? I don't want to make it clear. I don't want to make it clear because you know you gotta make it clear because then they just put somebody on terrorist list. I don't support terrorism. I do not support terrorism. But what they have done is they've engaged in humanitarian struggle, right? That's what they have done. If you look at settler colonialism, they have engaged in pure humanitarianism because even their military actions have also engaged in humanitarianism and principles of egalitarianism through their military actions, right? So if we looked at when Yemen took over an Israeli-backed ship, right, they did it through a helicopter operation, right? Landing on the ship, right? Sending smaller type vessels through their navy to essentially seize the ship, right? Then the people who were working in the ship, they showed videos of them like sitting down, you know what I'm saying? They'd be chewing, I think it's called like water or something like that. They'd be, they was all hanging out, you know what I'm saying? Listening to the music being treated humanely, you know, because they realized that their war wasn't actually with the workers on the ship, you know what I'm saying? Their war was with the owner who was an Israeli billionaire. You know, so we even seen through that versus the way Israel, the so-called nation state of Israel, the settler state of Israel has been engaging in the mass slaughter of Palestinians, the mass slaughter, you film your women, children and men. And that's why I say Yemen has responded in a very humanitarian way as a very humanitarian issue of stopping the flow of goods that is hitting them economically while also showing incredible restraint in terms of military maneuvers and actions. They never have reached the barbaric levels of the United States, NATO countries in Israel, right? But I would say again, if you're anti-imperialist, you should be supporting the moves of Iran and Yemen on the Red Sea, right? If you're one of the people here who I think there's been a slogan like no business is usual, right? Where they've been like, oh, we ain't about to go back to what we're about to be on the road. Well, what's the higher form? No business is usual, then you can't trade. You can't send these ships. You can't send this cargo. You can't send this oil. Well, you said that they'll shell back that we will not be going to the Red Sea. Yes, what's no business usual? You can't drive your cars. You can't get this oil. You can't fly your jets. That's the highest form of no business usual. We've seen Yemen and Iran attack Israeli link ships and stop them from going through the Red Sea and protecting the territorial sovereignty of their own waters and stopping this Israeli genocide of Palestinians.  Some people shut down ports. Some people blow up ships. It's all in the name. But hey, that's what is having a long term impact. I'm just saying what allowed you feel the shell just said they ain't shipping through the Red Sea no more. The people haven't shut down the port is still being trade. People shutting down ships. These people are saying we're shutting down the ocean. You can't come if they should leave. You can leave the dock, but you can't come through here. And the Red Sea is the most one of the most important trading routes, even historically. Yes. You know what I'm saying? This goes back to 3000 years BCE with the Egyptians sailing through parts of East Africa, common day Somalia or Eritrea. You feel me? Yeah. So historically, you feel me? It's been such a vital corridor throughout history. Because they might say we're supporting terrorism because they... We're just pointing to objective facts. We're also pointing towards the sovereignty of waters. I mean, what did Malcolm say? Malcolm said that the media, you have to be careful with the media because they'll have you hating the oppressor, loving the oppressor, right? They call the Black Panther Party terrorist. But what about the separation of this country, right? And it's funny because... Army terrorists. In the Declaration of Independence, you had the United States of America give certain charges against Great Britain and its king, right? One of them was for plundering their seas, ravaging their coast, burning the towns and destroying the lives of the people, right? Deploying large bodies of armed troops among them and then protecting those troops by way of mock trial for murders they might commit against the inhabitants of the state, right? Doesn't that sound like terrorism? And then what did the settlers go and do? You feel me?  So what's really terrorism? But again, so I'm saying we can't... The oppressor doesn't get to define the playing field. I don't get to... I say this all the time. I don't get to slap you and say, hey, you only get to push me back though or kick me. No, by then you... You get to engage me how you want to engage. That's game. So I think, again, my thing is, if you can support protests in the street, if you can support shutting down the ports of Oakland, if you can not go to Starbucks, why you can't get behind Iran and Yemen, that's like... But what are some of the reasons that people might not get behind these two countries? Allah al-Aqbar, because they say God is the greatest. That's the biggest one. Realism without it, that is the reason. It's because at the foundation of the resistance is being Muslim. Islam is at the foundation. We know that the West essentially has launched a new crusade against Muslims in West Asia. So it's easier for people, especially in the West, where people are more, quote unquote, secular, and they can get back behind secular movements. They'll have more popular support for secular movements. Where you'll see people who are like, oh, yeah, I support Yemen, but I don't support political Islam. We see this mass propaganda of Muslims, of these Muslim male beasts, you feel me, who need to be civilized. And this, again, why I call it a new crusade is because if we look back historically, what I was talking about, we talk about the Red CB in a vital area for Africa, Asia, and Europe. Historically, 3000 years before Christ, it was Egypt, you feel me, that was really in control in terms of trade. You feel me through modern-day Somalia and Eritrea. You feel me? Then obviously with the Roman Empire coming in, obviously I'm giving a fast conceptualization of history. You have the Roman Empire. Then you have the rise of the Islamic Golden Age in terms of trade and commerce, which took trade to new levels, essentially new levels, heightening of trade and new economic opportunities for Africa, for West Asia, Asia and whole. It was a whole trade corridor. But then you see the reaction to the rise of Islam, the Islamic Golden Age is the Western imperialism, European colonialism. You know what I'm saying? To where Europeans came in and now held captive these trade routes, which was in direct response to the rise of the Islamic Caliphates. So again, this is like that war. Then you see the Suez Canal being built with the support of France to where France had a 99-year lease in control of the Suez Canal. So essentially Europe was controlling the most impactful artery for trade. But then in 1956, you had Egypt nationalize the Suez Canal, which led to the Suez crisis. So here, again, in 2023, we're seeing this historic trade route come under contention by Western imperialism to have control of trade, to have control of capital, to have control of commerce at the highest degree, to have control of oil, so that these Europeans can continue to rape and pillage the resources and control the people for their mass profit. But what you have, again, now is you have an indigenous element of Muslims rising up, developing national unity, developing Islamic unity to essentially expel Western imperialists from the region. A part of that expelling process is controlling the Red Sea. It's controlling vital trade routes and putting them back into the hands of indigenous people, whether they be Muslim or not. So that's what we're seeing being seen as a threat is essentially this unity of Muslims, which kind of goes back in many ways to time periods, epochs, historical epochs before Muslims were controlling the Red Sea, where indigenous people were in control of commerce, indigenous people were in control of trade. We're seeing this rise of indigenous people claiming their humanity and saying, we're going to control this region for the benefit of our people. So we're seeing the West, of course, go on a what? Another crusade to be able to stop that from happening.  And they're saying, yeah, we can, I mean, realistically, people have the right to self determination. And you can engage in trade in a way that is equitable for all nations, as best as you can, if you move towards a revolutionary system of trade. You feel me? So that's what we're seeing and that hate it so much because it's Muslims. You feel me? It's Africans is dark people of the world, rising up and saying we're human beings. And now we have the right to self determination, we have the right to be true human beings, we have the right to shelter, we have the right to control our land, we have the right to water, we have the right to control our own resources. I mean, this is what freeing the land looks like. You know, I think when people just use it as an empty slogan, like to free the land means to have complete control and autonomy over all elements of life, all elements of life, right? And I think all that history you just named, as in a perfect example of why we need to study more, right? Because it's through the understanding of history that you were able to make sense of the current reality. When you have this history of the Suez Canal, when you have this history of the Red Sea, when you have this history of how this land, this water has been used for sustenance in life, you can see why imperialists seek to control it and why the revolutionary indigenous seek to free it. And without the history, then you reach haphazard conclusions as to why this is going on. Like everything ain't just about people hating life from liberty and hating the West, right? Like when you understand historically what this land has meant to Muslims, right? Like when you understand this is their lineage, their history, their God given right. Even if you don't believe in God, this is their natural, whatever term you want to use. Historically, this is theirs. They're indigenous.  Just because you don't know the history of Islam, don't mean it ain't thousands upon thousands of years of it. Just because you come to understand Iran through the warped Western propaganda, that's not all there is to it. Just because you want to come understand Yemen, you want to come to understand Iraq, that's not all there is to it. And we got to get real comfortable saying, Hey, I know these these niggas ain't telling me the truth. Therefore, I should probably be quiet and just study more. Exactly. Because we're learning a little bit more before I reach a conclusion. What we're seeing again is the America, it follows the same playbook and just changes is a little bit. You don't even got to know a lot about Islam or the Middle East or Africa or nothing. Just learn about America and this history here and you recognize that these niggas do the same thing everywhere they go. Just learn about your history. Because we've seen the same thing right now with the war on terror, right? We've seen the same repetition of jargon that was used in the quote unquote, war on terror, which was what? A war in Africa and a war in West Asia. That's what it is. We're seeing this repetition again of a war in Africa and a war in West Asia. Because why Europe and your old Americans, capitalist imperialism, they want to control Africa, they want to control Asia and want to control Europe to the interests of capitalist imperialism. It's very simple to understand. It's very simple. That's why it's going down in the Red Sea. And inshallah, the indigenous people will be victorious, control their trade routes, be able to trade equitably, you feel me, for the liberation of humanity. So I know you went over a lot. Listen to this episode, re-listen to it.   Like I read article in the Washington Post a couple days ago on recent strikes in the Red Sea. And of course, I'm able to sit between the lines based on my own political education.  Yeah, we'll put some links on our Patreon of different sources. We need to do that. I'll take personal responsibility this time and I'll add some links on our Patreon. But personally for me, my process is I do both. I read what the Washington Post says. I read what CNN says. I read, you know, I was just talking about Fox News and what Fox News was saying. I read all all of them so I could get an understanding of A what the enemy is saying. Right. Where their direction is what agenda they are trying to set. Right. How their propaganda is being used to wage war. So I got to have a full understanding of that. Right. And then I will go, you know, to different, you know, channels, different people who are, you know, indigenous voices to the region, then I will do additional history research on history of the areas of movements. Different, you know, revolutionary media organizations that, you know, have grassroots voices have grassroots opinions from people indigenous to the region. Right. So you can essentially try to understand what is being happening. You know, it is an analysis that you can just develop open without question. You know, you got to have an understanding of the geopolitics. You have to have the understanding of the history of the social conditions of the people. You know, I'm saying to be able to try and sift through all of the propaganda, you know, I'm saying to come to a concrete analysis on what is happening. You know, so it's, it's hard because this is war games right now. You know, so it's a lot of propaganda. So being able to sift through it is difficult. And I would say, you know, got to get comfortable with just taking a learning stance and being patient with learning and recognizing that, you know, it's going to take some time before you can form an analysis like you just said. And I also want to, I guess, like, warn people. Oftentimes, there are folks here who can tell you everything about what's going on internationally. But clearly, based on their practice, can't fully grasp the terrain here. And I would say they don't grasp the terrain of imperialism because they do nothing to You can't understand imperialism. I understand that you haven't changed themselves. They haven't changed their block, they haven't changed their family, they haven't changed their community, right? And so I think, you know, you got to find that balance, right? Only time will tell. But I always say the high like Sophia Bakari said, social practice is the highest criterion for truth. And so if you truly understand imperialism, you're going to work to combat it.  If you like this episode, you feel me, go subscribe. We all have links to resources, links to different articles to be able to give you some type of understanding and some of the sources and citations for this episode.  Be sure to go to our YouTube. You feel me go over there right now subscribe to our YouTube, watch it on YouTube, share it with your friends, you know what I'm saying, engage in conversation. You feel me think with us. You don't got to think exactly like us. We're to the homie left you feel me. But it tap in Patreon, SoundCloud, Apple podcast, subscribe wherever you get your media at, continue to build with us. But most importantly, you know, we got to build programs revolutionary decolonization programs and build autonomy filming. So support people's programs, support held by podcast, free to people, free to land.


Hey, what's up guys? It's Ben Neighbors. I'm the founder here at Make Money Coaching Sports, and I want to shoot this quick video before 2023 begins. So I want to give you a couple of updates. So number one, at this point, we have four other coaches now that will be producing content on our channel. So every 24 hours, essentially, we're going to have a new video that's going to go out on YouTube. And I believe over the next year, some of the stuff that you're about to see is going to truly change your business. Whether you decide to work with us or not, the value and the content that we're going to put on YouTube, it's going to be next level. So stay tuned. Watch out for the new videos that are coming out in 2023. I'm going to be doing personally a ton of new stuff on this channel. So that's number one. Number two, all of the coaches that have reached out on either email, social media, or the coaches that we've gotten to work with over the past several years, I just want to say thank you so much. Thank you for putting in the work. Thank you for executing on the information that we put out. I don't take this YouTube channel lightly. As you can see that we posted at this point over 800 videos over the past, I believe six years. So it's crazy. We've posted so many videos and really like it's what I love to do. I love creating content. I love trying to help more coaches. At the end of the day, our whole company cares about one thing.  You as a coach becoming a mentor to more kids having a greater impact on the kids that you work with because kids need help. Kids need a lot of help right now. Especially after COVID, so many kids are lost. They don't have role models at home. They need a strong coach in their life. And that's our intent. Our intent is to help you if you're serious, take your business to the next level, help more kids in your community and really be the difference maker. So thank you so much for being on this journey with us. I can't wait to see you in 2023. And that's it. See you soon.


Then we looked into these original dishes and where did it come from. In this research, I just found out that Danish pastries and cookies are all full of spices. I was wondering how come every Danish little cookie is full of these spices, when we are not known for spices, I thought. What is spices? What family trees? Which order are trees or seeds or can I order spices in different categories? And can I use how they make them and translate it to something you can find in the wild here? What you are probably going to see for my part in the future is creating own spices, which are inspired by this trade route and seasoning food, what made it our own nature. Actually a lot of stuff is sometimes actually in the family of the spice. For instance, if you take cinnamon, of course you can find this tree with this bark in the tree. But if you ask, are there other trees in that family? I am not looking for a new cinnamon, I am just looking for what do the other tastes like or do they taste like something. And are there some of these branches or trees in our nature, in some kind of another family? And then the whole search starts.


everyone and welcome to this conversation. So I'm going to go straight in and say that Sammy Martinin isn't your typical serial European founder story. He doesn't have one or two startups under his belt before this one. He has a whopping 13. Now he's on his 14th and apparently it's been going pretty well. Swapy has raised $170 million to date and it's nearing profitability, Tommy, before. So Sammy, is number 14 the one? Yeah, is it slush today? Does the snow usually get your shoes wet this time of the year? Yeah, yeah, this is the one for sure. And I mean like after trying out a lot of business ideas and a lot of things, you learn to recognize some patterns and you learn to understand consumer behavior. And when I get scammed buying a used phone online back in the days, we realize really quickly after doing a consumer survey following that on the next day that like this market can become like as big as the used cars. Like this can eventually be a 50-50 market and that's what we are driving towards and that's what the Swapy's business model is solving. So why exactly did you choose to focus so narrowly on iPhones and phones and not a broader set of devices like a few others in the market have? Yeah, so when we did this consumer survey back in the days, we realized that over half the population would be ready to buy their devices as used or refurbished, but the market was only 5% back in late 2016. And the biggest barriers for people not purchasing around not trusting the quality, like not trusting that the phones work, not trusting that the batteries work, not trusting the players on the market, and that was the biggest issue. And of course like then when people make the decision to buy like it's also about price and some other factors. And so given this, we knew that we like we need to actually get the quality part right and we need to get the price quality ratio right in this market if we really want to win. And iPhones account for like half of the market, so just listen to the consumers there and decide to actually focus on winning one category, becoming the most efficient player in the world in one category, automating our operations, our factory around that and yeah, rather than being okay in many. So just about focus and prioritization. And now that you've grown so much, would you ever broaden that? Is it about starting with a narrow focus and then broadening it or are you just going to continue doing what you're doing and focus on broadening markets wise? So the iPhone, so the thing is that there are still a lot of markets to expand to. We can still multiply our like business like just by growing the existing markets up deep. There are multiple new markets to expand to in Europe, outside Europe. And the iPhone category is still the fastest growing category in the periphery smartphone sector. So we need to keep a tight focus and make sure that we are where we want to be like in terms of like automating our processes and winning every single market we enter. So it will come eventually, but not in the near future. You mentioned earlier that what customers really cared about and were worried about was the quality. And I understand that this is sort of your USP that you do the quality control in-house. Why did you choose to sort of handle that all yourself? Because it's a lot more work. Has it paid off? Yeah, it's definitely difficult. And in the beginning like it's much like harder to scale, right? Like when you're working with an integrated business model. But it's definitely paid off. So our margins are significantly better. Our return rates are much slower than basically for the players not handling that in-house. So it shows in referral rates and customers coming back. And in the end, you need to be really obsessed about the customer. You need to build everything around that. And we just felt in the beginning that we cannot do this well enough for the quality piece or the margin piece. Like if we would go with another business model. And on the margin piece, is that because ultimately after having developed your own tech, you're saving costs without having to outsource to others? Yeah, exactly. When you control the full value chain, like from purchasing the devices from the market, you basically get the biggest margin upside, right? And then if you're the most efficient player in processing the devices, you can actually extract it. And we are selling everything through Swapy.com straight to the consumer. So there are like no other inefficiencies, no middlemen, or no other parties in the value chain. So for me, the really, really fascinating thing where we were speaking before was the 13 companies that you went through before Swapy. And I was a bit confused. I was asking, have you incorporated 13? Were they all real startups? Can you tell me a little bit about that story? How many years was it? Were they all separate incorporated companies or were you just pivoting? What happened there? Yeah, good, good question. I was actually about to correct you in the beginning on this one, because like we actually ran like 13 different business ideas under the same company. And we just did like quick pivots. And the thing here was that I had been looking for another founder for years back in the days. And when I met the other company founder, I just knew that, hey, this is it. I just need to leave everything else behind. We need to quit our consulting summer jobs and just starting, start building stuff. And we had a long list of ideas. And the kind of like rationale why we went there was that we want to maximize our learning and find what we actually want to do. And even if we would fail, we would learn faster than anywhere else. And we have, we maximized the likelihood of actually finding what we want to do. So yeah, it was 13 pivots, a couple of smaller exits. We always used the money into building the next ones. We basically bootstrapped for a couple of years and eventually ended up founding Swappy. And we wouldn't have ever became the fastest growing company in Europe from 2017 until the end of 2021 if we didn't have this background.  So to clarify that, did you sort of self fund whilst you were going through those 13 ideas? And my second question related to that is if you'd taken VC money, would you have gone through that process? Did that open up the freedom because you were able to self fund?  So we didn't take any salary for the first couple of years. It was just for the love of the game and just for learning and finding our path. And we used all the basically income we got from the companies into like, you know, growing those and building the next ones and next ones. After like, funnily though, we were not looking for funding, but like after like seven months or so of doing this, we just randomly met a guy who was in one like very early stage fund as an EIR. And he asked us what would we do differently if we had like 50k of like more of cash. So then we thought about it and like decided that we would just like accelerate the testing phase. So they actually liked what we do, how our approach, like what our approach was into, like testing things with the consumers into just building businesses in general. And they invested into us as a team. So that was it. So 50k for the first three years. Okay, great. And then that sort of gave you a bit of pressure to really hunker down and make this number 14 the real one. It did. And we just didn't want to race before we would actually find what we really want to push, like push forward globally. What was the biggest sort of failure along the way of those 13 or the biggest sort of learning that you took away from those? Was the one that you did pull more money into than others? Yeah. We had to be really, really frugal on cost as we were not like paying salaries to ourselves. And we were basically spending everything like everything we got like on the business. Yeah. So I guess the frugal mindset and kind of like learning to invest wisely, like what that's one of the biggest learnings. And I would say like, probably like how do you like how you need to be customer like really obsessed on the customers. You cannot be fall too much into love with your own ideas. You need to stay really humble and just like try to understand deep down what are the drivers for the customers? Why are they buying in this market? What are their barriers of not purchasing?  So that's, I guess, that's the like single biggest learning. Of course, like besides that I learned to, for example, I learned to build a wall for our store. We had this like we're selling everything online today, but we had this like small store in the beginning, which was also our first office.  It was like too impossible, like 11 meter high space, etc. You couldn't support it anywhere. So I watched some YouTube videos and build it myself over the weekend. So yeah, I learned some really random things, learned basics on coding, learned to deliver phones to customer stores on a bike, on a slushy winter night. This all sounds very sort of bricks and mortar IRL compared to most of the text software startups when you're interviewing. In terms of all those pivots, when you did go to investors, and especially when you sort of went to VCs for sort of your later rounds, is that something that they asked you a lot about? And was it a negative at first that you have to sort of convince maybe your early investors that you really were going to focus on this and you weren't just going to carry on pivoting? Was that, did it sort of serve against you or for you? I think it definitely served for us that we had, we had basically like pushed the first three years with basically no money. And we sold our previous company to basically fund the first year of SWAPI. And we got SWAPI off the ground from like zero to half a million of net revenue during the first what, like nine months on the first year. So I think like that spoke for itself and the investor really liked our approach and how like customer focused we are and liked our mission and kind of like the environmental focus. So that's with SWAPI why we did, why we also decided to leave the previous business behind. Like besides making this, like besides our mission of making this category mainstream and making less common as buying a used car, yeah, the environmental side is just too big to ignore. So that was, that was a clear. So was it sort of, a lot of founders told me that pivoting is a little bit stigmatized in Europe when compared to the US. And I was wondering whether you sort of found that at all? Yeah, I have to agree that in Europe in general, especially if you look at the public audience, like we were getting a lot of questions, like also here we were getting a lot of questioning, like, like, like, what are you doing?  Like, these guys are like trying their like 12th idea in a couple of years already, like, but I think, like, I think that's changing. At least in Finland, the whole like startup ecosystem, the whole thinking about entrepreneurship is changing super rapidly. So we were basically like, probably in the second wave of entrepreneurs after like, the success stories of like Supercell and, and Walt, Rovio in the, in the early days, in 2010s. And basically, like, I remember when we were asked, for example, in back in university, like over 10 years ago, like, we were asked in our first class, like, how many of you want to be an entrepreneur in general? Like, I think there were like, three or four hands, like, up out of like 230. And these days, it's like one third of the people. So, so kind of like the attitudes, attitudes are changing quickly. And I think also the stigma around pivoting is, is changing at least here. But it, it still exists in Europe. And I think it's still very different to work, for example, Silicon Valley and what, what, what companies do in Y Combinator, etc. It's a huge difference.  How fast did you scale into those? Were you thinking about that from the get go? What were the challenges there? And how fast did you scale?  You have to think global from day one. And that was the thing with our previous businesses, that was the thing with Swapy. So the first year we, like, focused only in, in Finland, right after, after founded, like, finding product market fit during the first year, like, then we straight up after our first financing round went to Sweden and then to Italy. And after getting the kind of like, three different sized markets working, that's when we decided to make the decision to scale further markets and open, open 10 during the next couple of years. Okay, so really, really fast. And do you think that was absolutely key for sort of surviving and standing up to your competitors? No, I don't think it was key to surviving. Like, I think, I think it was more just about that, like, getting the first mover advantage. We were really early in the market. We have a winning business model. So we can, we basically have thicker margins than our competitors in the space. Better control of the kind of like price quality ratio in general. So like, not expanding when you, when you get the model to work would have been kind of like foolish in my opinion. So we, so wanted to push it as quickly as we could. Like, once we got the next next batch working, like, then immediately launching, launching the next one. And I mean, like that made, made a lot of sense that made total sense in the environment we were in. Would you, would you ever plan on going, you know, further field outside of Europe? Do you feel like you would, you would be too late? Or is that something you would consider? We're definitely not too late. So we have, we have a good head start in Europe. We are the largest player in Europe in refurbished iPhones. And we are now kind of like doubling down on our competitive advantages here. So building further on efficiency and then one day definitely going outside Europe once we're ready. There's still a lot of work here before that. Yeah.  And we know that the different attitudes towards the climate crisis in Europe versus other markets. First of all, in the markets you're currently in, there has been so much more awareness in the last six years since you were founded. How have you managed that in your business? And how have you sort of scaled to meet that demand? So there definitely has been a big change. Although like before I answer the question, I have to say like it hasn't been fast enough.  And it's expected to remain so for the next 10 years. So there's 60 million like metric tons of electronic waste in 2023. And it's expected to grow to 75 million by 2030. And that's like equivalent to us throwing away like 1,000 laptops every second. And it's just too much. And if you think about it like 66% of Europeans do not resell or recycle their old smartphones. Like majority of us keep our phones in the drawers. And when you think about like that combination, like we need to move much faster. On the positive note, like this market is growing super quickly. Like it has 4xed over the last seven years. At the same time, we have 400xed in size. It's growing really quickly. And 40% of Europeans are now buying more like more used goods versus five years ago. So we're not on the right track. But working on making that faster. Wow, yeah. Those are depressing stats. I am curious to ask you in your consumer research, are you finding that people are more driven by their climate concerns or economic concerns when they're coming to refurb items? Well, people like to say that they care more about the environmental concerns. And that's definitely true for younger, like younger and younger segments that we see across the markets. But in general, like well, maybe not surprisingly to me, but like the environmental drivers are not like in the top three basically anywhere. So it's about price quality ratio in the big picture. Like people are not willing to pay premium for a refurbished iPhone versus a new product. And how about sort of in the last couple of years as inflation has gone up and up and up and the cost of living crisis has affected your sales? Yeah, so now the difference between what has happened now since last year. So last year, beginning of the year, like no big difference. Like this market has been out growing the new device market for the last seven years, like growing forex. But last year, from mid last year, when the inflation started to rise and interest rates started to grow, like we could, we started to see the biggest shift from new, like people shifting from buying new devices to buying refurbished. And that's something that has continued this year even faster. Yeah, okay, that doesn't surprise me. The gap is now bigger than ever. So your market is just growing and growing and growing essentially, yeah? Yeah, for sure. What about changing legislation? And I'm interested in when you've been growing so fast, whether that was even a consideration when you were starting out? And then how much more time you have to spend on that as you've grown in these markets? Yeah, so like, let me start with that like legislation, like we didn't actually, even to be honest, we didn't even really think about it when we started the company that you would have to like have public affairs and you could actually like try to impact legislation in the beginning. But once we started growing, once we started to follow, like started being bigger across Europe and started to follow the right to reaper legislation and other things like this, we noticed that actually no one in these industries is really working on it. So it's all basically lobbied and affected by news like new smartphone and new electronics manufacturers. So even though EU wants to push for a circular economy, they didn't have anyone like advocating for the refurbished industry. It basically, it's because this industry grew from scratch in a couple of years and no one was able to grow quickly enough to get the size that you would you could even invest there. And as we started to be one of the first ones, we found it's super important that we that we start the work and that we start putting the work for the industry and with the industry. There are some bigger problems there, like that for example in the past past years, I think as you mentioned in the beginning, like the average European users like are using their smartphones only for 2.8 years and the lifespans have been have been getting shorter from like 10 to 15 years ago and and the electronics have been getting less repairable, like harder to repair. And basically there are things like software pairing for the for the smartphones. So like manufacturers are bearing, for example, batteries like to the actual to the smartphones. So if you change even two new batteries apart or two new screens apart with an iPhone, they will not have all the functional elements anymore. So the software is blocking that even for new parts. And this is happening with new with other manufacturers as well. And this is a really big issue like like imagine like if you had for your car imagine like if you had a Toyota car and and you could only only change your like Toyota car tires in a Toyota sorry your car tires in a Toyota shop and you would have to pay like 2000 euros for that. Like otherwise they wouldn't work like that would be just silly. And this is like if we don't do something about it like that's where this market is heading. So we've been working on this and and actually have been getting the first wins. So this is this is moving to the right direction. And for example, the battery part that's like looking to be banned by EU and and now now there's a right to re burn repair legislation on a Boeing and and and it's moving to the same direction. So and obviously as a larger company, you have a little bit of advantage there with with lobbying and with with legislation. But would you advise founders who have sort of much earlier stage in the room to be trying to engage earlier on in that journey? Yeah, I think it's I think it's hard. It really depends on the industry. So like for us, it's very critical that we also push for things like beyond just for Swapy. Like for us, we think we think about the whole refurbished electronics and use electronics industry. It's it's as it's the fastest growing waste stream in the world. It affects so many consumers. For us, it's been a kind of like a no brainer to work on it. Maybe for smaller companies, I would advise them to like join some unions and like, you know, work with others. For us, we have been needed there to drive the work with a couple of other companies. And besides like, you know, representing the whole industry industry. And lastly, with the last minute, I want to just ask you the classic question of what would your biggest piece of advice be for founders in this room? I'm particularly fascinated by managing company culture through the great that you've seen. But I don't know whether you want to touch on that or whether it's more more on this product side. But yeah. Yeah, good question. So what comes to managing the company culture? I would advise everyone to everyone to have like incentives for the for the leaders, like not just on hard KPIs and role like hard performance on the roles, but also the people side. So everything about like your culture. Basically, for example, for us, it's about growth mindset impact, having an inclusive culture. And that gives you really good results long term. That's a really good tool to manage growth and ENPS at the same time so that you don't trade of either one.  And really think about what's the mark that you want to leave to this world. Be willing to change your business idea if that doesn't match your own ambitions there, like in what you what you actually want to leave behind. Or or if it doesn't match what the consumers really, really want and try to be present and enjoy the ride. Amazing even changed 13 times. Thanks so much. Thanks for your time. Thanks a lot.