in the day he works at a cancer charity and then one day he decided how do we you know let's think about the question of how do we get people to connect better so he decided he was going to make a game well actually I've mistook the story a little bit so you have to pay attention because he's gonna correct me so his game is called small talk and we're gonna have him come up and talk a little bit about it and then we're gonna play okay so so my name is Nick are you can call me Nick Nicholas yeah Nick my company is I created the company to to launch this game is called stuck naked stuck naked the game is called small talk so what I what I tell people is small talk is not small talk it's not about small talk I'll try to keep the the reasons why this game was was created as succinctly as possible okay I'll keep it short two two main reasons I was reading have you have any of you read Victor Frankl's book man search for meaning anyone really okay some people okay I was I was on a holiday I was on a holiday in New Zealand breathtaking scenery and somebody gave me this book in a car I know a long drives I started reading it that was like two three years ago I've kept reading it once at least once once a year and that book is amazing I think if anything if you don't like small talk today if you come away forgetting my name forgetting about stuck naked or small talk just pick up the book man search for meaning okay like he's really good so the book talks about man search for meaning and this guy is a Holocaust survivor right and he survived not because he was the strongest or the smartest but because he had the purpose the purpose to live for a reason and a will to live and he came out he wrote this book in seven days so he survived the camps he came out wrote his book in nine days I'm sorry and it's it's like it's been a best-seller since since it was published in a translated all the language so the book challenged me in various ways it challenged me to look at my own life and to ask myself what the heck am I doing I tell myself yeah okay I'm doing meaningful work I work in a charity yeah I want to do stuff that helps people yeah but what that anyone can do that right but what what makes me what makes my contribution unique to this world and I thought okay let's just explore a few questions questions so I like questions because they challenge me and I like I like it when people challenge me about my assumptions and about my preconceived notions so so I started accumulating questions and quotes and I it got ridiculous I mean I have an excel sheet with with like 300 questions about various things you know things that I've been thinking about and I've been like struggling with and then all these wonderful motivational quotes okay right what do I do with all these things so I started classifying them in some applying some logic to the to the questions and the quotes and I thought hey I along the along that journey I sort of like figured out yeah okay the Sun I know what roughly I want to do I want to help other people also discover what what this meaning is in their lives and I thought what better way to do that than to just make a game I have no experience with games I don't I don't have not made any game previously I just know that nobody's gonna read a book if I write it but but but but people might play a game you know so so this is a game the purpose of the game is to help people build meaningful relationships by having meaningful conversations and the game is just okay so right now this is this is it 60 questions there are 60 questions here open-ended questions that will get people talking and the aim is to get people jumping into the deep end of conversations so I don't know what kind of communities that are here or groups or pockets I mean it was my first time here but whether it's people that you know or people you don't know strangers first timers you can use this for networking for dating although I tell them it's not for that purpose I spoke it's for building relationships meaningful relationships so so that's one reason I mean purpose like finding purpose second one is I get I get very frustrated when when people okay so this is the pattern I've observed in recent years people are more comfortable talking online rather than face to face I don't know about you but the people that I've met so far all right they're more comfortable especially the younger ones who are entering the workforce they don't want to pick up the phone they would rather just type send off an email you know it's impersonal it's delayed I don't have to face the consequence I don't have to face feedback visual feedback or verbal feedback or whatever and then that frustrates me like what are we doing right so so one of the reasons why I did this game was also get people talking about things that matter to them face to face so okay so this is just a video that illustrates my frustration oh is that sound there's no sound oh I'm sorry oh I'm sorry okay okay okay hope it's loud enough with explanation for it now if you got this text you could reasonably assume that the person on the other end is happy about Dave coming to dinner maybe even excited about but what about this you ask can I bring Dave to dinner tonight and your husband or wife or girlfriend says sure with a period almost an identical text but the subtext of the text not that period instead of the explanation explanation board means either I thought we were going out the two of us or I don't care if Dave comes or maybe I don't like Dave you know well let's look at another example here and a simple message you ask can you pick up some milk on the way home and your text may replies of course now if you got this you can assume there will be a container of milk in your refrigerator when this person gets home but what if you ask the same question say can you pick up some milk in the way home and the response is the letter okay you can assume the person will get the milk but isn't happy about it the letter K is like the text equivalent of rolling your eyes at someone he's like what a teenager does when he asks however day was but a K is no good but this might be worse now try again can you pick up some milk on the way home and the answer is yuck yuck translates you all I'll get the milk but why the hell can't you get the milk I'm working all day at nine hours to go get milk and now I'm at me ask to go get the milk right now yuck should never be confused with yep yep yep it's okay yep it's friendly but if he changes to you that person probably wants to push you into a wood chipper maybe this might be the most passive aggressive of all the passive aggressive text it's this this response ha ha ha says I acknowledge that what you said was meant to be funny it wasn't but imagine a real life you made a joke and someone said ha so whatever you have if they did you would fight them right so just to recap we're texting a boy using periods yucks and haas and most importantly never ever use your phone to make a call yeah so you guys identify with this I mean does this happen to you or do you wonder about these things when when you get messages you know and you saw fill in the blanks and actually it's a harmless message but what the hell so okay so this really goes back to communication and how we communicate and and so one of the so why why did I make this game because I want to make relationships meaningful again I want to help people build meaningful relationships by playing the game relationships are important because we are all in relationships in some way or other the moment we are born we are already in a relationship with our parents you know we are surrounded by people all the time we have relationships that matter to us so relationships important but we screw it up quite a bit so and maybe if we put a bit more thought into it a bit more effort in communicating effectively maybe our relationships be better so earlier somebody was saying something about what I was at the card game cards against humanity so sometimes I tell people okay so small talk is the the diametric opposite of cards against humanity is about fun and laughs and all that and that's great I think there's a time and place for that and I think there's a time and place for small talk which is not small talk okay so what do what is the ideal situation for small talk for the six players just grab for also we're going to divide ourselves later right so I'm hoping that you're sitting beside somebody that you don't know I think that this would be even better if you don't know the person for the six players right ideally that's food food and drink you know because ah right yeah yeah okay good so anybody hungry just go there so you exercise the same organ like you know you talk with the mouth and you eat your mouth I mean you know so in between you're thinking of something okay just put something in you know it's just it's a filler it's a filler what isn't it trigger so the trigger is the cards the cards are like that you know okay it's just one example this kind of happiest moment of your life I mean okay we will go into that later but there's a trigger lucky the trigger is just it's just a trigger to get you started on the conversation and meaningful conversations so Julian she sort of gave the game away so it's not about the rules I mean there are rules and their points it's a game right so there has to be points it has to be a winner there's to be a loser but it's not really a game it's not really a game in that sense and really the points don't really matter and I think when we when when I when a whole sessions with strangers right and we come together and we play the game over dinner that usually comes a point in time where people say the game the point system is stupid unless I'll count the points anymore the points don't matter really and that's when I yeah the points don't really matter and that's when I I know that we're ready to put that aside and actually have proper meaningful conversations and pauses silent pauses so I actually look forward to people when a question is asked and and they are stumped you know and like what the hell and it is just eating you know and thinking it means that they're thinking it means they're thinking and and I like that I want people to be stumped I want people to pause and think about their answers and you know because the question the game is about questions right so there are follow-up questions right and people ask you so what do you mean by that you know how how how did you do that you know I mean so you be challenged by by by other people in the game and and you know so you you and all that helps you to clarify your own answers now your own motivations your own desires your own reasons for doing things or being a certain way and I think that that helps so I look out for silent pauses I look out for nervous laughter I look out for all these things because I I I know that this is gonna this hits at the right mark and they're gonna go away maybe the end of the game they're gonna think about this over the week maybe you know if you play a game as often as possible as I have I played it's ridiculous I just went on holiday last backpacking trip to Langkawi and Penang and I brought this thing along with Mila you know and all these backpackers are around I just take out just talk about this year I know I just play around and I met so there were the two Germans so I got to know these two Germans and Spanish and this Dutch lady very well and we started traveling together and we just playing all these things every stop point like you know and I got to know them very well actually and it was an experiment for me I wanted to validate it with an international audience so I've been testing in Singapore but I wasn't really sure whether this would resonate elsewhere so so this was was an experiment yeah and I was pleased I was pleased it worked so yeah so once I press this button right it's gonna go down to the so this is where we want to I want to get you guys to play right so so these are the rules these are the modified rules it's actually let me show you the rule card okay it's ridiculous okay I the rule card is is is like that you know it's cumbersome and I think at some stage you think like what the hell is this rule I don't even want to play the rules that's good you don't need rules to have conversations but you can if you want to so this is this is just a way for us to get organized and to maybe just have conversations with the guys around you know I can give out physical cards or you can log into this page and like click it and scroll scroll over and you can oh okay you know what I'll just leave it here and we all just handle the first question oh yeah yes that's a facilitator I mean usually so I'm I'm usually a facilitator but actually anyone can facilitate in the sense that you know you try to be keep the conversation focused on the question give people space to answer it and I mean clearly when when it gets to a certain stage where it becomes rambling and post-off topic and all that right now okay let's just bring it back a bit oh yeah partakes to clarify it is a turn-based game yes so so it's not like everybody talks at the same time although there is a variation yeah yeah but we're just gonna do a little sample of this here so maybe maybe if groups of you can break up into like you know whoever's around you maybe in groups of six or something of five or six and just deal with the first question you know answer the first question so what nicknames do you go by and which is your favorite yeah yeah yeah I mean yeah sure groups of six so maybe one two three four five six you guys I just turn around yeah sure yeah I did Okay, so the rules of the game again, so hold on, hold on, guys, guys, okay, I'm sorry I should have just gone through this list of just guidelines, right? So pick a card, right? Ask the question followed by how or why, so every question is a how or why question and everyone just takes the time to answer it as honestly as you can and followed up questions are encouraged from everyone and anyone in the group and just to be open about it. So Robin, right? Right, okay, Robin, so when you asked me the question about just now if the conversation goes off topic and if it deviates, right, what does the facilitator do? So I was trying to formulate, okay, so for me, right, meaningful conversation is important, like when we're having this space and time here, it has to be meaningful. So if it deviates and it goes somewhere else, that's fine. As long as it's meaningful, you know, if it goes into gossip, it goes into complaints, it goes into just bitching about stuff, then that's not meaningful at all.  If it goes into meaningful areas in life for you, that's great. I think that's how conversations should evolve anyway, you know. So it has to be meaningful, yeah, that's, yeah, that's it. Oh, you didn't.  But that's a good answer. Oh, right, oh, okay. Why is it that? It's just about time. Because it's not a different question. It's just about time. Oh, okay. So can I give you guys some cards? It's like that. Yeah. Do you think you're gonna stick me out please? Okay. I'm done. Yeah, I'm done. Yeah, yeah. Just look at it. Yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna have this. Oh, I see your shit's not. It's cool. It is. It's cool. It's cool. It's cool. It's cool. It's just one at a time, yeah. Just take a time, take a time. All right. All right. I think you're gonna go back. I think you're gonna go back. Can I think you're gonna go back. Can I think you're gonna go back. Can I give you a card? Do that. Yeah. All you gotta throw, you know? Yeah. Just use that if you want to. I don't remember what I wanted. It's kind of weird. Everybody already does it. I go by VI, and I don't have any other names. I chose it because it is a productive mnemonic around technical people. Because it's consistent with popular text editor. Yeah. And I guess to answer your follow-up question, which is your favorite, when I have to choose, when I have to maximize it for a set of one, I'm going to pick one, and it's the same, and we win. I had a lot, depending on some of your friends, but I kind of settled. Once my name is Faiza, which is a little bit difficult to pronounce for people who are familiar with it. So when I was 18, I had a friend from Australia who couldn't pronounce it and started calling me Fuzzy. And I've loved it ever since, because I had Fuzzy hair. And I think now I'm more known as Fuzzy than by my actual name. I think only my parents still call me by my wife's name. I teach kids, and even the kids call me Fuzzy. Just Fuzzy, no mess, no matter, nothing. Just I'm Fuzzy to everybody, and I like that. Just conveys everything, so that's why it's funny. So my name is Robin. For a long time, I mean that I had an alias. And the reason I, which is my middle age, and I had this because I'm from Canada, where Robin has a girl's name. But here in Asia, it's a guy's name.  So in order to establish my gender. Why puppy? Why puppy? Why puppy? Why puppy? So it's a term of endearment. Yeah, it's a term of endearment. So it's the one I like the best, but nobody else can hear it. Okay, thanks. So it's a number of actually... Yeah, puppy's good, huh? Yeah, puppy's good. A bird, okay.  So if people are usually calling you up to be, I'm like, you know, maybe a little. I'm like, you know, maybe a little. She's different or who? She's different. I'm like, she's different. Which is your favorite? So my favorite is... Oh, okay. So then I'm very interested in... Zeng Yipu? Zeng Yipu. Okay. So, um... The difference between, um... There's a few times that's right. There's a few times that's right. So what does that mean that you know what you're talking about? You know what I mean? Um... I guess, um... I've got a lot of kinds of things, right? My mom likes to be... Um... She's very nice to me. I still love the fact that she sticks to it. That might be the entire nation. I'm still very interested in... I think it's a lot of things. I'm even considered tall. Yeah. But they don't call me mom. Um... They used to call me, um... Can you hear me? And I actually adore them. But as an online... Nickname, but... I don't know anything about it. So it's... Kayu. Kayu. It's gonna say Kayu. It's a... So that's... Kayu, I actually use that. Other than that, I'm sure... I mean, Nickname... I mean, Nickname's are interesting. I guess they're very compulsive both. I don't know if I'm the only one who finds out... that Nickname's are... maybe quite normal... that they are in the medics. At least I have some... I know you get impulse. And they have... they have a really shuffle word for everyone. What are you talking about? What am I talking about? Well, I haven't really... We only have one. So, um, my... Really, what are you talking about? Damn, Bob. This is like a very... really cool thing. There's gonna be a lot of fun. There's gonna be a lot of fun. There's gonna be a lot of fun. I don't need to go... I'm sorry. So, uh, my name is Nick, right? But in school, uh... My Chinese name is... is Qingrui. Qingrui. So, my... my friends call me Stingrui. I liked it. I liked it a lot. I liked it a lot. But nobody calls me that anymore. I love singing, I love eating singing, yeah, I love it, I love it, yeah, that's my favourite, singing, singing, singing, so you can call me that, yeah. Cool, so this question is called Moral of the Story, so describe one important life lesson we've learned from the books you've read. I want to take this away. I need to think about it. Any book, any book, any book. The one that comes to mind. The rules don't matter. I'm going to change the question because this is actually quite meaningful for me, so. And it's about books, so I've always had a lot of books that kept my books very well. And I've known all the sisters, and we were much younger when we were teenagers, we had a really bad fight. And she knew how to get me. She took one of my favourite books and she ripped it. And I was shattered, and we had a bad fight, and my mom and she separated us. She spoke to each of us separately, and I remember this conversation with my mom. I didn't remember it. I brought it up, and she was like, it's just one of many. She just told me, be the bigger person. In other words, let it go away. And it stuck to me, so I've obviously taken it physically. But I've also taken it mathematically and morally. I've always, whenever I'm in a situation where there's conflict, always be the bigger person. So it's kind of, there was a book involved, although the lesson kind of came from it. So I think I skipped you though. Oh. It's very hard to look at the single book, which is largely meaningful as far as the majority of my interaction with books is in the sense of, oh, hey, this is a useful tidbit of information, and when I'm considering this problem, I can help to reference it back to what I was trying to be clear for a while. But in terms of, like, a vast moral transformation, I can't say I've had that experience. They've been missing out for a long time. So the last book I read had a, definitely had, it was a chocolate-flavored lesson. What was it called? Being mortal. Being mortal? Okay.   But this doesn't have to be like, how are you going to live the end of your life? And you should know when you should plan for it. And you should be able to talk to the people around you, because you are probably going to have other things for your parents, the people around you. So really, it was a book about asking, basically saying, is it quality of life that's important or quantity? Because medicine will give you quantity, but it will give you relative. So are you prepared to know yourself? What do you want and what do you want?  And I think it's really good. Everybody should read that book, seriously. But did it affect your behavior? Did it affect... So I guess I was already kind of going down this path, because I had been a part of my diet a couple of years ago. I was fairly young. And then I sort of slightly got involved in the funeral business because of this. So I had been thinking a lot about this issue, but it really pulled it together for me in a way that it also makes it easier for you to say to people, look, there's a lot of stuff you have to think about, but read this first, because it gives you the motivation to then make the next step. Yeah. I just saw the book that came to my mind. But when I have to cook, I guess a little bit of an election of my own. So the book that came to my mind was... What? I wanted to think about it. And then there was... There's one thing I love about this book, because I guess it's like my life is really long. So I don't know which place it is. There's a lot you ought to think of through the tongue of the learned that you might speak a word. Yeah. What does that mean? So basically what that means is... Yeah, so... I still wonder some days. Yeah, I know. But I guess what it means is kind of like... and then the next one is... instead of the two... could be able to... I guess one, and the other one is kind of like... I really don't know what the first question is. Okay. So basically what that means is that God is God. Nice thing. Like in a timely way, or at an appropriate time. You can be nice to people. Yeah, let it be. It's more like penis. It says something, let it be. Yeah, it says something. Right. You know that we say like... Yes. Yeah, yeah. Anyone who's ready, anyone who's ready to use this. Yeah, so my favorite project of all time is the English game. Oh, okay. The enemy is dead. Yeah, the enemy is dead. Yeah, the enemy is dead. Yeah, so... I guess it's just normal. Sorry. Okay, we'll go back to... So I'll read the system. I can't play the game. You know... Is there someone at this table you would like to know about it? There's some sort of structure. There's three. There's three. There's three. There's three. Three for the structure. And three for me. Clearly, we do this about the next hour or two. Can we wrap up about five minutes for the next speaker, please? Now. On it. Yeah. Steve, look! Yeah, Steve. I'm going through my list of books and what are the ones that I've read the past year I moved here temporarily, but that involved me and my wife we own a house at home and we have to be ready for people to think about it So we have to like keep house basically So I'll read this book by Mike Gondo, The La La La of the 38 I'm going to send you an article because it's all about death She's been heavily criticized and everything so maybe life is too short for all that I'm a bit of a need for you So this really kind of pushed all my love and my wife was really As I went through the whole aspect that she outlines She basically says you need to get rid of everything Well at least you need to, no actually what she says is take everything you own Put it on the floor and take each item one by one in your hands And if it sparks joy, these are your hands, then you keep it If it doesn't, you discard it So I actually make that, everything I own And it was quite, I would say it's very refreshing She came away with her fire, and then when she needed to remove it She broke her ruler trying to get it out So that's also what she talks about How you regret discarding something you see And you can get it right because then there's not enough Quite quickly after one exercise I do recall there was something like this But I still do adhere to the doctrine At least certainly living here now I become very kind of conscious of acquiring stuff Not that I'm into buying stuff But it's kind of, in this town You're constantly bombarded with all this So I finalize my desire to buy stuff I've only been here for two weeks But you're going for the ultimate But in fairness, you've thrown out all your stuff I've only brought some new stuff So this is not a new water bottle brand I'm just like, you need a new... But it's not a new one So you see, I'm already actually I didn't really make any impact on my life No, I'm not an expert That's the book It's a fun read It's on the slides It's taken from the idea of what that is Why now we might have an explanation for the... Why is this a concept? What in the park was it? Because the site goes on And now it's in the post Because the first people don't have time So how do we end up with this one? So with new... The... New... More correctly, like in that case Yeah, like... From it to the Asian topical So I mean... After that I read So I want to... So I think... There's a lot of things to update It's a general idea It's like... It's a framework It's kind of applied to different things So I think that all the things It's really important Because it allows you to continue When you're doing travel And what's important to you Whereas like you... And then you're back And you can't change anything It might be one of the things I think that's right there I think that... We're going to have to continue this after that It's back? Nice You said there's a lot of updated ideas Were you being ironic? Who was there? There wasn't Well, theoretically, yeah There's a lot of ways to accept Completed processes Now maybe more in mind So do you think this is a system You can't get rid of it yourself? Do you want to stand? I'll stand Maybe I'll sit later Oh no, I know a lot of students So climate change is very important Mostly it's a model It's quite a sales solution What make you talk about What's the most possible system? Oh, we did Where is it? These guys are still going I'm asking on behalf of the others Is there a half a space that counts for the cards? That promo code Can we enter the promo code? 25% off Wait, who's doing the math? How much is that? 25 bucks At least we got a pile of 10 pieces It's 25 dollars No, no, no, I want a pack I'll take two Take two, okay So any of you have like You know for later Christmas presents Team building Cam's coming out I'll stop marketing for you Let's talk a bit about your research I'm sorry, I brought a few pieces But I sold some During the day earlier And I have maybe three pieces I'll take one So someone else can have Okay, I'll take one I'll take one Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh There are other groups Yeah, man So now we're sorting that out We have a favorite question Wait, wait, no, I give you one You're going to give each other, right? Yeah Ah, where can you find it? Yes, where can you find it? Doorstep delivery I have delivery, yeah Free delivery, yeah I'm sorry, I'm not a regular salesman Like right now I'm like a bit mustard You should be, get a coat So that if y'all did No, he's not doing well at all He's having his stock all over You give us a quote We'll post it on the We'll post it on the We'll post it on the We'll post it on the We'll post it on the We'll post it on the So we can get People to turn their seats back Towards the front and we'll put some newcomers Together we'll come inside Newcomers, newcomers Newcomers, newcomers So let me So let me So let me So let me So let me So let me So let me So let me So let me So let me So let me So let me So let me So let me So let me So let me So let me So let me So let me So let me So let me So let me It's very fascinating because I was telling him it's a beautiful element of teasing up your own moral philosophy. And you know what's been happening in the world is also quite an interesting way of understanding complexity as well. Obesity and unlikable similarities and all that sort of thing. But I think we're just going to talk a little bit more about this game, because I'm sure it's going to be interesting. Thanks. Yes, hello everyone. My name is Kars. Those are my details. Yeah, I've just arrived here in Singapore. I've arrived two weeks ago. Yes, well, not this trip, but I have had durian. I smelled it. These past two weeks, I like helping people improve themselves or their environment and I do that through design. So I practice design. The past few years I've mostly managed design projects. And I also teach design or more broadly train people in design. And the things I've worked on are mainly or my background is mainly in software products. And the things I like to work on the most are tools. Tools for learning and tools for creativity, mainly. The reason why I like working on those things is that I enjoy seeing people do unexpected things with the stuff I make. And tools are by definition that way. Or at least good tools are, in my opinion. So that users aren't just passive consumers. They are producers or co-creators. So those are the things I enjoy working on. And that interest has naturally led me into the world of games, game design, more broadly play. So, you know, exploring systems, figuring out the rules of a thing, and so on and so forth. So yeah, I'm here until August and I'm interested in working locally. So if after this talk you want to grab a cup of coffee sometime or you think I should talk to someone, please come up to me and we can have a chat. I'd love that. Until the end of last year I was a partner at Hubbub, which is a small design studio which I founded. I was based in the Netherlands and my partner is based in Berlin. And we've kind of paused operations as we both explore new things. But I am going to show you some of the work we did over the past six years. At Hubbub we did various things, but they fall into roughly two categories. On one hand we did design consulting, so we helped organizations figure out what they can do with games and play. We did concept development. So for new product ideas we came up with concepts and we prototyped them. So we built early stage versions of them, did the research required, tested them, and some of those were developed into products later on. The other side of Hubbub was kind of an independent practice, a studio if you will, and there we made kind of experimental playful stuff, games and toys and play things. You often kind of across the digital and the physical. So when I say game, I'm not necessarily talking about video games. We've done work in reality gaming, alternate reality gaming, pervasive gaming, mobile games. And so those independent projects were often kind of critical in nature and we also like to do collaborations with different people. And I think that latter category of work is most kind of relevant I think to a hackerspace community. So I will show some of the projects we did within that context. So for lack of a better term, the word we settled on towards the end of our run was playful design for the stuff that we did. Which is kind of a field that is kind of operates at the intersection of interaction design, software design and end game design. So the idea is that play is something that can make any technology, any technology product more humane. It allows you to, if a product allows for play, it allows you to be more fully human. And it's wonderfully expressed in this book, a recent book which I highly recommend called Play Matters. It's a quick read, so don't be scared. Pick it up. And it's relevant to all kinds of I think makers and hackers, particularly this quote, which I try to kind of live by in my professional practice. The idea that I think this is very relevant. I think our model of technology is often either stuff that does something for me, kind of a servant, or stuff that imposes things on me. So we tend to think in those two, kind of in that dichotomy. And I'm not entirely sure that's the most productive way to think about technology. I'm sure there's a kind of a third way, if you will, where technology is kind of like a partner or a playmate or an equal. And this is what Miguel Cicard talks about in this book a lot. Technology being a source of expression. So kind of take on things. I'll show some projects that I think are all kind of in some way related to this idea. And the first one is a video. Let's hope it runs. Because in the spirit of hacking, I've switched to new presentation software for the first time. So everything might go horribly wrong. But here it is. Play. So before I talk about this project, I should emphasize that this wasn't just a hub-up project. We were part of a research project which was led by both the Utah School of the Arts and the Wageningen University. PIGS. I'm sorry? iOS. The prototype runs on iOS. So this is a concept video. Later on, we went on to build a working prototype. The background for this project is that in Europe, pigs that are farmed for meat are required to have toys in their pens. Because as you may know, pigs are incredibly intelligent animals. You may not be aware of this, but they are super intelligent. So when they are bred in captivity, they grow bored. And when they grow bored, they start molesting each other, basically. They bite each other's tails, ears. That's the only enjoyment left to them, basically. If you bite in someone's tail, blood comes out, they start screaming. That's interesting, right? So once the public learned about... So the way pig farms deal with this traditionally is to dock tails.  And in Europe, at least, there was increasing pressure on government to increase the treatment of these animals more humane. So this notion of docking tails and stuff, people didn't really like to hear about it. So this led to laws prescribing these animals to have toys in their pens that they can use to enjoy themselves. And when I say toys, so farmers have very limited resources because the economics of livestock farming are brutal. So they operate on very small margins, so they can't go out and buy super fancy stuff for these pigs to play with. So when I say toys, you have to think about stuff like a piece of chain that they can chew on or a block of wood on a chain that they can kind of mess around with. And that's reasonably enjoyable. So one of the people involved in this project, or one of the people who started this project, Clemens Driessen, is a moral philosopher. And he's done a lot of research into how we relate to domesticated animals and how technology affects that relationship. And when he learned about, so he was talking to pig farmers and at some point, and they were talking about these toys and he found that interesting. And in fact, one of the pig farmers at some point, and this was back in 2010, 2011, I think, at some point said, well, I just bought my kids an Nintendo Wii, and it was one of the first kind of video game consoles to have a motion interface. And she said, kind of, just as an idea, why can't my pigs have something like that? And he was kind of very intrigued by this idea.  So this idea stuck in his head and he eventually approached the Utah School of the Arts, which has a game design program and a research group. And we got involved and we ended up first doing concept work, later on doing prototyping. And the main goal of this project was to see if, through game design, we can kind of investigate how we relate to these animals. And also to see if, once we introduce the concept of a game, how people think about their relationship with these animals, if it changes and if it does, how it changes. And as you can, I'm curious, maybe you can later, after this talk, we can talk about this, what kind of triggers this set of in your own head about these animals. As you can see, this pig here, who we worked with, has a nice curly tail. So actually, once they start being able to play with, not our video game, but any toy in general, the docking isn't necessarily needed anymore. So that's good news already. So that's pictures. This is another thing we made, which is also kind of looking at, again, play and playfulness and social dynamics. This is an independent project. It's called Standing. It's an app for standing still. You can go on the iOS app store and download it. So you see it here on the left. And here's one of my collaborators, Simon, standing in the center of Rotterdam in the Netherlands. And as you can see, he's standing for something. That's the cause he's standing for. That's the default cause in the app. But you can change that to any cause you'd like to stand for. We were inspired by the Standing Man demonstrations, which happened in Turkey in Istanbul. And we started this project shortly after that event. As a kind of investigation into activism and how technology is used in activism nowadays, and kind of the activism community, there is kind of a concern that stuff like online petitions and the ease with which you can kind of support a cause just by clicking one button, that might function as a kind of a release valve for certain kind of social unrest, which would otherwise lead to actual physical action in public space, for instance. This is a theory that people in the activism community have. It's not necessarily true, but it's an interesting idea. So we asked ourselves the question, could we use technology to kind of create a middle ground between the traditional walking the streets in a protest, which nobody wants to bother with anymore, apparently, for some reason, right? It's a pain. It might be dangerous. Depending on where you are in the world, you might not even be allowed to do that. And just being super lazy and clicking a like button on a Facebook page for some cause that you care about, but that's the only thing you're willing to do. So this is kind of an example. We decided to make something that shows that there maybe is kind of again something in between.  So we see people all over the world standing for all kinds of stuff, one of my favorite, and it kind of exposed me to all kinds of like local concerns. A bus driver's strike in Sao Paulo is just one thing that comes to mind. And I invite you to give it a try. It's a weird thing to make because it forces you to do absolutely nothing and it makes your phone completely useless because the idea is you start the app and you need to keep pressing this button and keep pressing it and the counter starts running. And we also use the rest of the sensors of the phone to make sure that you're actually staying in place and not moving, so you're kind of fixed. And then in the meantime on a companion website, GetStanding.com we broadcast the fact that someone is standing for cause X in that location. And it's all kind of archived and added up. So all the people standing globally for peace, those are all added up on our website and you can see how many hours people have stood for peace globally using our app. It's a very kind of subversive I think and again kind of playful way of practicing activism. I'm just so good. Because I want to get to bycatch. These are just some examples and hopefully it illustrates this concept of using technology to be present in the world and to express yourself. So the final one again is a video. So this is the least political of the projects I'll talk about. But I think this is also hopefully interesting to you guys because I imagine some of you work with hardware as well. Can Park is a toy basically. It's a public space toy. As you could see it's a big ball, transparent ball.  A camera with a panoramic lens streaming live video over a mobile data connection to an Oculus Rift. So you can put on the Oculus Rift and you are put inside the ball. As others play with that ball in the square where you're standing. So you're kind of you're put in a different kind of perspective on the world and people are playing with you but physically you're somewhere else. So it's a very kind of weird experience. This is Mark II. Can Park Mark I streamed video to a large urban screen. So we've kind of developed it further.  So it's not a actual gyroscope but it's good enough to keep stuff more or less kind of in place. So as the ball rolls you don't roll with it basically. Unless people start playing with it very roughly then you start getting kind of jiggled around. And it's an interesting weird experience and you can kind of look around you. So you get a very different kind of perspective of maybe a very familiar city. So the video was shot in the center of Eindhoven which is one of the bigger cities in the Netherlands.  So shopping day. And that ball was just running through, rolling through the people walking around. And you get a lot of spontaneous interactions and a spontaneous play happening between not only people who are there together but also people who don't know each other at all. And I think that's a very valuable thing in and of itself to have. And it's something that's kind of gradually disappearing in the Netherlands because more and more of our public spaces are being commercialized. I'm sure the Singapore context is completely different. I'm curious what would happen if we would take one of these balls and put it in the streets here. I don't have one with me but it would be an interesting experiment. So we wanted to kind of reintroduce this idea of public play in a busy kind of shopping area. And it was also the kind of the educational side of the project was about the transparency of it, literally. And the way it's constructed is, I hope you can kind of recall from the video. Maybe I'll mute it and I'll run it again. We deliberately designed it in such a way that each component that we used is very clearly visible in the armature. So what also happens is people are curious about how the thing works. And the nature of the physical design of the thing helps us kind of have kind of very informal conversations with people in the streets about how easy it is nowadays to build these things that do all of these kind of pretty advanced stuff. You can talk about how tiny cameras are nowadays, the fact that there's just a USB domo with a 4G sim in there and it's streaming live video all the time and all these stuff. And young people, old people, I really enjoyed just hanging around while people were playing with it and having these conversations. How much longer do I have? Okay, so how much? So the project I'll finish with is a game we released last year and we're selling it ourselves on a website. I only have my demo copy with me. On my own, I would be here and there were like, I don't know how many people are here. I might have paid Singapore Airlines extra to bring a big box, but I'm sorry guys. So I'm afraid we won't be able to do like a full play session, but maybe I can get a few of you to help me out and we can do kind of a quick demo. And I'll talk you through kind of the way it works. It's a little more complicated than small talk, so we'll have to make do. LikeHatch is a card game about drone warfare. I call it an issue game or a critical game. It's fun to play, seriously. It's also not that hard to learn how to play, but it kind of also kind of challenges your own kind of ethical and moral kind of considerations of this kind of very current topic of remote warfare. Maybe we, and we thought the reason why we made this project was that we thought there was an opportunity for kind of a critical thinking about it for a general audience that only games kind of can do. So we are bombarded with kind of opinions about it in media, so there's great journalism being done and there's great documentaries and all kinds of stuff, and all of that is amazing and I'm super interested in it. But it's sometimes hard to kind of think through some of the kind of the more systemic aspects of it without actually seeing it in action. So that's why we made Bycatch is one of the reasons. Very deliberately we are not telling you what to think. We are giving you kind of a context within which you can kind of figure out how you feel about these things yourself. And if you want to be very gung-ho about hunting down terrorists globally and making tons of collateral damage in the process, that's fine too, right? But it's very interesting to see what happens at the table when you do and how other people respond to it and so on and so forth. So as you can see there's a smartphone here in the product shot. The smartphone isn't included and actually you don't really need a smartphone but you do need a phone with a camera. So this is kind of a hybrid game but not in the sense that we use an app or anything. We just use your camera so any phone works. So this is kind of the... This is one of the things you do in the game and it's kind of the most distinguishing thing. One aspect that this game is about is surveillance, aerial surveillance and camera surveillance and the fallibility of that way of kind of looking at the world from above and thinking that that gives you kind of a God's eye view of reality that allows you to make kind of perfect decisions. We kind of use the camera phone as an analogy for an aerial drone which surveys the terrain and allows you to kind of see whether in the hand of one of your opponents which cards they are holding. Each card shows a person.   All the players at the table are hunting for that person. Each player is kind of nominally a nation and you all have your own kind of surveillance apparatus and you're surveilling each other and then you can kind of decide to strike at one of your opponents and then eliminate and hopefully eliminate the suspect because that scores tons and tons of points.  So the trick is to balance the surveillance with the striking but we are handicapping you because between the moment you are taking a photo one aspect of it is when you're taking the photo as you can see you're not allowed to take the photo with the screen towards you so it's kind of an awkward way of taking a photo. So stuff can go wrong with making the photograph itself. It's blurry, it's incomplete, but you still need to... you get one shot. The other thing is you need to kind of wait one turn until you get to act on your surveillance data and the world changes in between, right? There's a whole kind of turn that happens so hands might change and you kind of need to make kind of an estimate whether your surveillance data is still kind of up-to-date enough to warrant making a kill decision or not.  I imagine the stressful things that some of the people in the... in for instance the American... kind of a drone machinery that's been built up are confronted with every day. Of course this is an analogy. We're not trying to simulate... do a realistic simulation of it. We're just trying to create a kind of... I call it a subjective simulation that kind of emphasizes certain dynamics that we're interested in and puts you in kind of the shoes of the decision maker. I want to say we, this is we. So that's me. This is Alper, my business partner. And that's Leica. So the three of us, we came up with the concept, designed the game and it was an interesting process. Leica's based in New York. I'm based in the Netherlands. Alper's based in Berlin. So all of this happened. Most of this happened remotely. So we went through the way we worked. Each of us made prototypes, designed prototypes, independently from each other. We shared them with each other and we played them with local groups. Kind of a Darwinian take on game design. And we started at some point, you know, you hit upon interesting elements and you start merging them, combining them. And then eventually we got to the design we have today. We also had help from a brilliant illustrator and a great graphic design studio. But the rest of it we all did ourselves. We had it printed in the Netherlands and now we do distribution fulfillment from Alper's workplace in Berlin. So that's also been a super interesting process to go through the whole kind of the first step of coming up with the idea all the way towards the end. We do this stuff professionally, but hardly ever do we do all of it. And so this was an opportunity for us to do every aspect of product development and marketing and so on and so forth. Yeah, so this is where you can find it. And now I'm hoping to show you roughly how it works. I talked about it a little as well already. And for that I need a few volunteers. Five? So, okay, so, or we can do Q&A now and I can sit down with a couple of you and we can just like play without a ton of people or who wants to watch, can watch. Yeah? Okay. But I do need to, so we need a table as well. Right. So we can use this one.  No. So that's actually left out of the kind of the design, the actual kind of the terrorist act itself. So also we call these people deliberately suspects.  We just think they're bad people and need to do something about it. Is it conceivable that you could win without killing a suspect? Yeah. Yeah. There's different strategies. One of the other things you can do in the game is shelter your own citizens. So you can keep your citizens safe from harm and that scores your points as well. So you can kind of, and actually you can choose to do the same with suspects that are in your own hands. So that are in your country. You can choose to kind of keep them safe from other players for whatever reason. So let's see. I'm sorry? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So let's see what I'm going to do. Can you shuffle this for me? Yeah, you guys maybe want to grab a chair or at least try to kind of sit around the table. Okay. Please stand there. All right, cool. Okay, each player gets a hand of seven of these cards. Yeah, you can see your own cards. Okay, so these are the, this is the intelligence deck. These are all the, this deck tells you which person in the game is a suspect. So there's nine people. There's seven of each person in this deck. Okay? So I'm going to take a few out. So we're going to take five, one for each player, plus three. So there's one isn't in the game. And the first one is opened like this. So this is the first suspect of the game. It's a number eight for those who are trying to fold along. If you want to get up and kind of stand around to see what happens, please be my guest. Okay. Let's see. So if you have, if any of you has one of these in their hands, that's a suspect, okay? Is that clear? Okay. So each of you is a nation. Your goal is to win. And how do you win? You win by being the player with the most points at the end of the game. Yeah, with me so far? Yep. Okay. So you score points in a few ways. You score points by eliminating suspects through a strike. You also score points through sheltering your own citizens, keeping them safe. You lose points when you strike innocence, collateral damage. Okay? So we, as the game progresses, you rack up points, and then at the end of the game, we tally the points. So playing the game, here's a, if you can, if you can see it's, we take turns, and on your turn you do three things. The first thing is, you admit a new citizen, which is to say you draw a card, either from, or go through it just quickly, and then we'll play. So you first draw a card, then you can get to do one, one of three actions, or you can not do any of them. So you can either build a shelter, gather surveillance, or order a strike. Okay? That's step two. Step three is control your own borders. You either, if you have more than seven cards, you discard down to seven. If you have less than five cards, you draw up to five. Again, from this deck. Okay. Who has the oldest thumb? I would say about a year old. That's my year. Yeah? Is yours the oldest? Yeah. Okay, you get to go first. All right. Why is the oldest grown the first one in? He's had a disadvantage, right? He doesn't have the high tech, so let's give him a head start. So I draw a card. So the first step is to draw a card, yeah? It's so that people will want to catch it. So you want to catch this person at the moment, but it'll change. Once this person is caught, killed, eliminated, whichever euphemism you want to use, and the next one is revealed, okay? So, okay, you've done step one. Admitting a citizen. Okay, so this is hard to read. Step two is to take an action. So you get to, normally you would get to choose, but I'm going to give you an action because I'm teaching you the game now. So the first action is to build a shelter. And building a shelter is a bit like running. So if you have cards in your hands, at least three that are run.  Would it include a suspect? It can include a suspect, yes. So how many cards? At least three, at least three. And you can do as many, yeah, because you get more points as the shelter increases. So for a shelter you get 20 points for the first three citizens, and then 20 extra points for each extra citizen in there. If there's a suspect in your shelter, the points get multiplied. So you get double points. So, can you repeat the sheltering part? A run. So it must be like, you know, let's see. Yeah, that's great. And actually, you've got this person. So what happens now is she's safe. We review the next one. So the last bit of your turn is if you have less than five cards, you get to draw up to five. Probably do. And we go on to the next player, which is you. Okay. We'll draw a card. Yes. And then I'm going to give you an action. Again, normally you get to choose. The second action you can do is to gather surveillance. This is the one I've been telling you about. So you get to take your phone. Okay. And this is a free action. You don't need to use any cards. So you get to take your phone. And now you get to... The first thing you do is you shall surveil. Surveil. And all of the other players need to freeze in place. Freeze in place. They're not allowed to move anymore until you're done. Now you pick one of these people. Okay. And you get to surveil them. You get to take one photo of their hand of cards. Okay. Yeah. In the way that is shown here. So you need to kind of use the back camera. Okay. Okay. Go ahead. I choose you. Very forthcoming. So, you know, go for it. Okay. So like I can't move at all while he's picking the photo. Right. And he gets to take one photo. Doesn't matter if he messes up or not. We have Surveil far in the states. So I'm just going to shoot through. Wow. Go for it. So when you're Surveil and you're supposed to freeze. And what if it's like Roland, he has his cards off. Yeah. There's a few rules. And of course he's trying to kind of abandon them. There's a few rules. One of the rules. And I haven't told you about them first. But of course you try to kind of do the thing that he just did. Which is to just, you know, put them all. And that would be too easy. So the photo is only one card. The rule is you're not allowed to hide one card behind another fool. You get to mess around with the cards in your hand though. You can, there's different, you can be creative. But as long as they're not all the way behind each other, it's fine. The other rule, the second rule, and that's the last one, is there needs to be enough space between the face of your cards and the environment for a phone to fit in. So we call that a hands breath. You know, reasonably speaking. But you keep it very close to yourself or the table or whatever if you like. But again, you need to kind of anticipate it because once the player shall surveil, you're not allowed to move it. Okay, so you've surveilled. I know. You've been very kind of, that's an interesting choice you just made. It's a beautiful image, isn't it? It's gorgeous. We share our intelligence. We share our intelligence. And to finish your turn, I think you have eight cards in your hand now. You need to discard one. Okay, I will discard this one.  And now, the nice thing about this is that if you draw a card, you can also draw the top one from the discard card. Okay, so next player, that's you. What if you discard the suspect? You're not allowed to discard the suspect. The suspect card is basically taboo. The only thing you can do with it is shelter. Okay. Okay, so it's your turn. First you draw a card. No special wind issue. I'm sorry? No special wind issue. Put in a backpack. Put in a plane. Put in a tube. Very straightforward. Okay, and now I'm going to give you the third and final option you have is to order a strike. But I'm not entirely sure if you're able to do it because for this you need to be able to discard a pair of two identical cards. Do you have one of those? Yeah. Okay, so that's a requirement. You need to discard those. That's kind of the manpower expended. Okay. So just a pair of two. As long as they are identical. If you have two pairs, can you do it? You can only strike once. And now you choose, so this is a bit weird because you haven't surveilled or anything so you're completely like bloodthirsty you're just going to go for it because all of these nations are untrustworthy. I'm putting words in your mouth now but so you get to pick one of the players and you get to strike. The thing about striking though is it's not super exact. So the rule here is as you can see in this illustration you need to take three cards from the hand of your opponent which are next to each other. So there's always some. Yeah, but maybe there's a suspect in there. For the suspect you get a hundred points. Yeah. For the collateral damage you get let me just quickly get minus ten. Right? Okay. Normally for a successful strike you would get a hundred points for the suspect minus ten for each. Like he happens to have two suspects. That's good news. It's very rare. You're very lucky if that happens. So pick a player and strike. Did you notice a nonviolent gesture? Violence with. Violence with. Complete violence. Yeah. All right. Three. Yeah. Okay. So did you strike gold? You didn't strike gold. So this is minus thirty. And after everyone has seen what you struck those go face down. Do people typically see what you strike? They always see. First you show it and then they go face down to kind of keep it a little bit interesting for the card counters amongst you. You probably know why this is important. Yeah. So that's the third action.  So that's it.  Yeah. So that's bye guys. So I don't know if you want to do maybe a discussion or Q&A now or you want to keep playing. Can you bomb a shelter? No. No. No. So I built a shelter with a suspect. That is very nice. So we changed the suspect. Cool. So it's a bit of that suspect. You can keep them safe in your own country. Yeah. It's not entirely a bad strategy and it keeps the game moving. So that changes all the time. So there's new intelligence that's being revealed as the game progresses and a different person has become suspect. I can't see the screen. It's probably that camera. Yeah. It's supposed to show it's a veil so far before you start taking your camera. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's suspicious now, do I? In fact, my father needs cameras. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I see the problem. Clearly you need some practice guys. Yes. You're new to this whole surveillance. Oh, I see. Maybe show it to the rest of us. That was very helpful. Yeah, so I've managed to get two of... I'm not sure if you can read this. Yeah, so... Well, I mean, so it's enough to identify... It's a nine. Someone. Well, but yeah, in particular, not the suspect. Oh, number nine, yeah. Okay. And it's sort of five to eight. Up to five or down to seven. So you have, I think, one too many or two too many? Yeah, so that's one of the... I've seen players who've just tried to win without doing any strikes, doing any active aggression. It sometimes works. Oh, because you did the... Okay. They aren't playing. They are subjects. Can I shelter a consecutive runner of more than three? Yeah, you get extra points for those. I don't have it. I'm making good progress. And do I have to draw more cards? Up to five. So that's one of the downsides of being struck, is you lose population and you need to play a complete turn until you can kind of replenish your hand. So you can also choose to... Just handicap other players. Do you have no cards when it's your turn? You draw five? When you start the turn and you have no cards, you're out of luck. You need to then finish your turn and then you draw up to five and then the next player goes. Sometimes you can still surveil. Yeah, you can still surveil. That's true. That's a strike. So you can always surveil. Surveiling is true. The point. There's always one suspect. The rest is fine until someone decides they're not. Affirmation. You guys are being very lenient. Yes, I think that's really stressful intervention. That's what it is when you're flying. Right, the right to flight. The right to flight. There's all kinds of ways you can cheat. Do you guys want to ask me anything while these people are playing? I would like to kiss them. I'm sorry. You can order online and we ship globally with the German mail service which is excellent, I can tell you. Deutsche Post? That's in the road. The last part of the journey. We shipped to Hawaii and it was there in a jiffy. What happens once you get to Singapore it's supposed to come to your door. Is that the problem? Is that so? Yeah, all the time. Sounds like the Netherlands. I see a lot of online stuff where they say inside Singapore it's free delivery people just going around delivering it themselves instead of going through the mail? I'm curious. This can go through the mailbox. Maybe that helps. That's one of the things we pay close attention to.  Unless you have very thin mailboxes in this country. Yeah! The strike has already been on it. You can outrun the control. Oh, you got one. Nice. Okay, so those go face down. Strikes go face down. But as a set. Keep them together. This was the scar design. Normally you get to reshuffle this and put it face down again and then you still have a dropout. Do we get to share? If you like, there's no rule telling you not to. I'm sorry? No, no. I'm here. I'm independent at the moment. What are you going to put in now? Design? I'm going to have stuff. Talking to music. Is there a game over? Hopefully I get to do some stuff. Games, but also more generally interactive products. Software. This stuff is about six years. I'm sorry. Did you finish? Who won? He did. What's the scoring for the shelters? The shelters are 24 the first three and then an additional 24 each card above the first three. Oh, yeah. I'm sorry? And you multiply by 24. So those can be quite valuable. I think it took us about a year from first... not full time. It's a side project. The subject itself. So the remote warfare. Actually how it started when we decided we first decided we wanted to work together. And so the three of us. And then from there we first went through a process of discovering what a good subject would be for us to work on together. So we made a huge list of things that each of us found interesting independently from each other and then we put them all together and then we figured out where the kind of the shared interests were and also what would be the most kind of interesting subject to make a game about. And we hadn't settled on what kind of thing so we didn't start it from we want to make a card game. We just started from we want to work together and then the form emerged from the topic and the thing that we wanted to do. So actually prototypes of bycatch it wasn't called bycatch then but we considered casual mobile games tabletop role playing game and so we really kind of first started very broad very very different approaches before we settled on this. Stuff like Dungeons & Dragons does that ring a bell? Yeah so and there's in role playing there's new kind of independent role playing games that are much more about less about killing dragons and more about storytelling and stuff so that was also one of the things that we looked into. So one of the things I have a personal interest in at the moment is oh yeah sure


Sorry guys forgot to do the randomizer So this would be in a separate video guys. So let's do the randomizer here for this Number five overall picks it's gonna need dice roll and it's a two and a five seven times give up one two four five six seven Goes to the bulls and EA a little consolation right there for you, buddy Oh, those jumbo patch cards deporter beautiful, but actually that 25th anniversary jumbo patch The one I pulled the one out of two actually is from a couple years back But they're all game used at the end of the day some of them are from this past year Some of them are from a couple years later So just doesn't matter, you know As long as they're all getting used so there you go EA nice one again This was contenders optic to box pick a team number five Jaspies case for example


So, we're here in the NowCastSA studios today with Dean Rogelio Sainz from the UTSA College of Public Policy and with Roger Enriquez, who is the Director of the Policy Center for Policy Studies Center, I'm sorry, the fairly new Policy Studies Center, right? So, I'm going to start from the top. There is a Latino Policy Symposium coming up at your center, but we're going to back up for a little bit and go to the Center for Policy Studies Center, I'm sorry, at UTSA. And, Dean, tell me what's different about your Policy Studies Center. Okay, one of the things that we have in terms of planning this symposium is we have the College of Public Policy and Roger Runsey Policy Studies Center. And one of the absences that you see around the country is that we have a lot of public policy schools and colleges of public policy, as well as centers and institutes that do policy research, but there is very little that focuses on the Latino population. And here at UTSA, we're one of the major Hispanic-serving institutions in the country, so this is an area that we really want to engage with the community. And another of the absences that you see is around the country, where you have some centers that look at policy research, there is little that looks at the intersection and the interaction between researchers and community activists, for example, people that are working in nonprofit organizations. So this is a way to try to engage both of these to get a fuller picture of the problems as well as solutions that face the Latino population. Well, let's talk a little bit about who's been invited. Yeah. Okay, so what we wanted to do is to have folks from across the state of Texas participate in. So there is a lot of geographical mix, so we have individuals that are involved with nonprofits in the Rio Grande Valley, in Dallas, in Austin, El Paso, so we really tried very hard not to make this sort of a San Antonio-focused policy symposium. These folks are typically what we would say grassroots folks that are involved, let's say, in issues like housing or education or health and human services, workforce development, things of that nature, because this is one of those, I think, rare opportunities to have folks that work in the trenches on a daily basis and understand the issues that confront Latino families, and really the purpose of the symposium is to better strengthen the Latino family in Texas. So the folks that we've invited, I think, will be able to help inform the conversation. It is not an academic conference, but there is definitely presentations from academics, but that's not its sole purpose. The purpose is to create these community-based participatory research-type relationships where we actually have this opportunity to learn from one another and sort of close the loop and bridge theory with practice. You do have some heavy hitters coming academically as well. We have folks from UT Austin, UT El Paso, UTRGV, Texas A&M University, and all these folks are experts in the field. Ilena Escierto, who's from the University of Texas El Paso, is one of the most prolific scholars in the area of education. We also have some participants as well who are also scholars, but that would be, she's from UT El Paso. We have Yolanda Padilla, who's from the University of Texas at Austin School of Social Work. Again, a major figure in the area of health and human services. Salvador Contreras from UT RGV, University of Texas, Rio Grande Valley, who will be speaking on what we're sort of referring to as plenary sessions or setting the table for us in the area of workforce development, employment, those issues. These folks are going to help us to contextualize the issues in Texas and help move along the discussion as we move from, again, once again, from sort of theory into practice and really come up with a platform to help strengthen Latino families here in Texas. And this is a different thing, because you're talking about some academics and you're talking about a whole bunch of people, Maldef, tell me some of the other groups. Idra, Intercultural Development Research Associates, IDRA. We're talking about Southwest Voter Registration, LULAC, Southwest Voter. There's a number of, you know, also La Fe Policy Institute out in El Paso, and we also, I mean, there's some other folks, for example, like Rob Santos, who's from the Urban Institute, who's going to also help us to, you know, again, I'm big on contextualizing the issue so that whatever we do move forward, that what we're getting is the best information, the most recent information that we're not operating, you know, from old data or, and of course, Dean Sainz will be presenting as well and providing a very thorough demographic picture of Texas and the changing demographics here as well. And what are you hoping that the magic that's going to come out of this?  And it's a bunch of people who are really passionate about Latino policy. What are you hoping is different that comes out of this? Yeah, one of the major outcomes that we would like to see is that the College of Public Policy and the Policy Study Center play that stimulus role in terms of stimulating the ongoing discussion because the last thing we want is for people to come together for these day and a half and then take off and then they forget about everything and, or have it in the back of their mind, but we want to have that ongoing discussion and collaboration because this is where we're trying to bring in this larger community. And if we look at the kinds of challenges that we have in Texas, we know that the Texas legislature is a big obstacle in terms of some of the policies that have been proposed, so we need to look at that reality and how it is that people that are advocating for the Latino population and increasing their economic power and so forth and sustaining families, how we're going to come up with strategies, for example, economic strategies, political strategies that are going to serve the betterment of the Latino families. And again, having that broad participation of people from a variety of academicians, the non-profit people who are on the ground, non-profits and activists, and I think that that agenda is one that will be much fuller and will get us further along. But again, the emphasis is trying to make that happen and continue that collaboration because we look at this as the first annual. We want to have a second annual and third annual and on down the road to keep that conversation going because these are not changes given the political reality. These are not changes that can be made in six months or a year. This is a long process that involves this collaborative work. Everybody who's coming to the table on this has one part or one slice or, you know, one perspective on something, I mean, there's a shared vision by folks, but they are coming at it with one way of looking at things. And you talked to me earlier about saying we need to start reframing the conversation. I think this author here, George Lakoff, is talking about how conversations need to be reframed as opposed to being defensive against policy initiatives that are coming down. Tell me a little bit about where the reframing, where you see that coming in. Well, there's a number of different areas where, and this is an important aspect of the symposium as well, is so for the, in order to sort of begin the whole process of how we frame issues, we first have to sort of get together across these different themes, you know, it's possible that this is maybe one of the first times that someone, let's say, who's quite involved in housing, for example, to actually interact with someone who their primary focus is education. So there's probably some very common things that we don't really even think about very much about how we message things. You know, a sort of a recurring theme, you see this in education, you see this in a number of different workforce development with respect to Latinos is, okay, is you hear folks that say, well, you know, this workforce maybe doesn't possess the skills or, you know, there's a deficit of skills in order to get high paying jobs. So it seems to be like a recurring theme that sort of when you discuss Latinos, that there's always, we're focused in on the deficits, right, the deficits that are involved. What we're trying to say is, look, you know, let's not look at this in, you know, who is framing that debate, you know what I'm saying? And for example, something I'm very familiar with, which is higher education, you know, there's a lot of focus or a lot of attention paid to four-year graduation rates. And they, there's often said, well, Latinos, four-year graduation rates are lower compared to, and so there's this discussion that somehow this is a big liability for the institution. But you know, we should look at this as a framing opportunity and say, well, no, actually, this is where the biggest opportunities are for us to move the needle, right? If we were talking about a corporation that perhaps was underperforming, people would flock to that and see that as a good investment to go in and make an investment in that underperforming asset in order to get the biggest return on investment. So some of what we will discuss, especially in the second day in the afternoon, is this whole idea of are we framing the discussion or are we making efforts to frame the discussion or are we or someone else dictating how the discussion is being framed? And I think that that's something the lack of does very, you know, obviously touches on is that in many instances it's really a question of who is, you know, framing the issue. And that's certainly a part of all this as well, is that how, you know, for example, the demographics are clear that Latino families are growing, you know, across Texas, you know, this is an important opportunity for the entire state to really focus and try to make an inroad to the well-being of the entire state, right? I mean, if obviously if they represent a large proportion of the population, if you were able to improve their financial stability, their health, their educational attainment, and all that, well, that would just be good for the entire state. No one can possibly argue with that. And that's something that we don't really hear very much of, right? Most of the time when it's discussed, it's discussed from sort of a position of weakness. And we want to change that. We want to begin to explore the possibility of framing the issues in another, in a, you know, and what I think is the right way.  It's just that the, we think people are asking the wrong questions is essentially what we're saying, and they're not focusing in on the positives. As the demographer in the group, right? When you're framing your conversation that morning, when you're opening the conversation, I mean, what are you, how are you looking at trying to change your approach to that from perhaps previous presentations on the demographics and why all of this matters? I think in terms of the future of Texas is very much tied to the fortunes of the Latino population. And we've seen, as Roger pointed out, some of the, those patterns that suggest, for example, the lower four year graduation rates and so forth. But we also see a lot of the positives that are taking place. So just a few years ago, Latinos became the largest minority groups in higher education. Something that is, that we wouldn't have figured that that would happen in about 10, 15 years ago. They continue to be primarily concentrated in the community colleges. So we need to also look at how it is that we can make the connection where students can make the transition from community colleges to four year universities and so forth. So in terms of those demographic shifts, I think that the importance of the Latino population and as Roger pointed out, creating these new paths that are often overlooked as we try to pigeonhole Latinos in terms of, to the kinds of realities that we see in the general population and things that are very positive, things that are going on in the community. That sounds really exciting. The date for this is May 4th and 5th, right? And people are still registering for this at this point? We've pretty much finished up with the registration. We have probably over 90 right now from across the state. Again, you know, since we're breaking up into four, there are plenary sessions, but then there'll be these four panels that will actually drill down. And yeah, so these are folks that are working in a particular area, right? So if you're, if what you do is you, for example, work in Idra, right, Idra, or if you work with a community-based educational agency, right, primarily helping students to, you know, get into college or helping families that are in, you know, in schools and whatnot. So you would probably be in the education work group. And those folks have a facilitator and a scribe. And, you know, we've structured in such a way to be able to drill down to the issues and find some sort of some commonality that, you know, how could we, what are some of the policies to identify that we could make gains to strengthen Latino families in the area of education? So as each of these groups comes together, then we'll have an opportunity to present essentially what we came up with. And then that'll be a larger discussion on the second day to be able to sort of lay out or create a platform for strengthening the Latino family in Texas. So education, health and human services, housing, and workforce development. Yeah, those are the ones that we were working in. And I understand that folks are listening and probably think this is quite ambitious. But as the dean pointed out, we as an Hispanic-serving institution at UTSA feel very strongly that if, you know, we don't do it, who will do it, you know? I mean, there is probably not an institution in the country, better positioned, better poised to be able to do it. And we see it as really an obligation to put this together and to put some resources behind it in order to make this come to fruition. And we know that it'll be a benefit not just to the people of San Antonio but really the entire state and the nation as well. Because as the dean also pointed out, I mean, as the Latino community goes, so does the state of Texas. And of course, Texas is one of the most important states in the union. So we feel that this is sort of an opening shot at really having a big impact here in Texas and in the United States. One of the things that I think I see going on in Austin right now that I think you're perhaps trying to address is that we see a policy come across. We want to do this, whether it's the bathroom bill or something, that there's this initiative to push for this, which puts many organizations in the state on a defense basis. But what you're hoping is going to come out of this is that you will have policies, right? You will have policies on this that you're saying, okay, instead of saying we have to figure out how to deal with these cuts in funding for education, we want to come forward and say we have a policy that says we need to figure out how to pay for this education as opposed to how to adapt to cuts, right? Exactly. So we're looking at major policies having to do with the future of Texas, not bathroom bills, for example, and things like that. But what we're doing is looking at education, for example, workforce, housing, areas that we really, these are very important critical issues for the well-being of not only Latinos, but the state as a whole and trying to get that kind of conversation going and a plan of how we move from A where we are right now to place B, to place C, and making advancements in terms of bettering the social economic conditions of Latino families. Okay. As opposed to just responding, right? As opposed to responding, it would be saying we have some positive ideas to put forward and how are we going to get there? But that doesn't happen quickly. Right. I mean, the policy think tanks that have been proposing conservative policies started 20 years ago, right? No, we're longer, actually. I mean, though, you know, this is something that's also important, is that, you know, we tend to think that these, you know, the current situation that we find ourselves in just sort of happened or we stumbled into. The reality is that many folks have been working on having precisely these types of policies in place for probably the better part of 40 or 50 years. Many of these things began in the 1970s with the creation of certain think tanks and position papers and folks making major investments and finding top talent to be able to begin to frame the issue and really change the nature of the debate. And so we understand that this is not something that it's going to, you know, change in a year or two. I mean, this is a process that is just that, a process of beginning the dialogue, creating those relationships across the state, and then, you know, experimenting with different strategies, tactics, and ultimately also, you know, measuring as well. I mean, one of the things that is important is that it's going to come out of this and it's already really begun in other things as we sometimes refer to as the Bienestar Index, which is just the Latino family well-being here in Texas and how we measure that and, you know, to see how we're doing with educational attainment, how we're doing with employment, how are we doing with housing, you know, are Latinos purchasing homes, owning homes and are they getting those homes at competitive rates? You know, are Latinos graduating from high school or graduating from college in a timely way? Are they able to find jobs that, you know, that match up with what they went to school for? All these sorts of things. We need to begin the process of also systematically measuring those and seeing how we're doing so that we can then tweak policies and maybe experiment with different policies in order to improve those outcomes. And that's part of what the Urban Institute is going to be helping a bit with and you, right? I mean, it's data. Right, because the Urban Institute, if we look nationally, it's one of the prominent centers that deals with these kinds of policy issues and we're very fortunate that Rob Santos has connections also to San Antonio. Yes, he has that famous brother. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the cousin, yeah. And so he's going to play a prominent role in giving us ideas on how it is that the Urban Institute started, the work that they're doing with the hopes of providing that spark, for example, that ignites thinking on a big scale in terms of what it is that we could do on a similar basis here in the state of Texas. That's some lofty goals. Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you both so very much for spending some time talking about this and I'm looking forward to this. Nowcast is going to have its cameras on at least part of this. We will be there and as the conversation develops beyond this. Anyway, thank you.