Okay Hello, everyone I'm gals agi from while we were paying research center With me presenting today a run gamble also from while we were paying research center and Mali from a w cloud We are going to present the project dragon flow Anyone heard about the project before here? Okay We won't be able to cover all the technicalities in 40 minutes But our goal in this presentation is to show you that dragon flow is definitely a project That is interesting. It's something that you should check out And you can come talk with us dragon flow is part of open stack big tent So we have our own design summit sessions and you can come talk with us and get a little deeper Into the project dragon flow was created when we received feedback from Running open stack public cloud at scale at large scale and when I mean scale I mean many hypervisors It's moving and Dragon flow mission is to Overcome some of the challenges that we found in the reference implementation today in terms of Performance of the data plane, but more importantly in the scale of the control plane and how many hypervisors We can support One major objective of dragon flow is to keep everything simple and lightweight in terms of the code base We are doing everything as part of the open stack project and as I mentioned before we are a big tent project You will see throughout this presentation that in dragon flow we focus on distributed networking services We are reusing a lot of other open source framework and components that are production grade That are production grade ready Instead of trying to reinvent many of the things and we'll see this going in this presentation So our dragon flow environment looks like Looks like this we have a local dragon flow controller sitting at each of the compute nodes in our setup And all of these controllers are synchronized with the logically centralized distributed database and This one second can you do? And this database Holds a policy level Information so two points two important points about about this Overview first is that the database and I'll touch this going forward is a pluggable database Okay, so we can use any key value database framework out there To with dragon flow and I'll mention In few seconds why this is important the other important point is that this database holds policy level abstractions and information And not anything else which makes first it makes the data that is being distributed to all the compute nodes relatively small and second it lets us Compile or have smart logic in the compute nodes that knows to take this policy and translate it According to the hardware that is running or the solution that is running on the edge on the compute nodes And this makes it very easy for us to do smart integration with smart nicks and all kinds of how the offloads capabilities So going a little deeper inside How dragon flow looks like we have the pluggable database and we already have support for various different database like rum cloud riffing db ready is zookeeper And the process of adding a database to work with dragon flow is relatively very easy We found that doing this layer pluggable is not something that is too complicated And on the other side we have the dragon flow applications Which are very flexible models that take this policy and translate it into an open-flow Pipeline that is installed in the local OVS or any other switch that my beater Another small thing to notice about the diagram is that in addition to the database part we also doing a Pub sub the abstraction a pluggable pub sub We recognize as we moved along in the project that Some database don't have an efficient public subscribe Some database don't have it at all and we wanted to optimize these two Separately so it's very flexible to the user if your database support Something that notifies changes you can use it if it doesn't you can use something else and that helps to Achieve the scale that we are looking for Some of the features that we have done for mitaka, so we have layer 2 Implemented with all the common tunnel all the common in sorry All the common tunnel in protocols We have distributed layer 3 done only on OVS flow, so no agents no namespaces We have a distributed DHCP application, which I'll touch in a second the pluggable Databases and the pluggable pub sub mechanism We already have a nice integration with OVS connection tracking support for security groups So we removed the need to use the linux bridge and we have some nice Designer that actually reduced the number of flows needed to implement security groups Distributed net is if you're familiar with it from the reference implementation if your compute node has Nick to the external public network You can use your Dina traffic Your Dina traffic doesn't need to traverse the network node So the pluggable database framework This is actually a very critical point in dragonflow and this is a critical point in our view in how you scale an environment, so The first thing we did is we said, okay Let's try to implement something of our own something that we can optimize for our use cases And we actually consulted the many people that work with us that are very familiar with DB We'd even call them DB experts and they said this is very bad. This is All of your requirements the high availability the redundancy the supporting the scale that you need and Having this consistent enough will make will be very long to implement It will bear very long to implement But even longer to productize and this is something that we couldn't wait for and Then we said, okay, we can pick one solution. There are some many open source alternatives out there But we didn't want to look ourselves To one solution over the other each solution has its own characteristic each solution can fit to different environments And we said, let's try to take the pluggable The pluggable path and we found that it's rather simple So instead of locking us down maybe in few months, there will be this greatest database solution so why why lock ourselves to one solution and we went and implement this in a pluggable way and In this in the first implementation what we did is we distribute all the policy all the data to all the compute nodes This is not the current implementation dragon flow. This was just the initial version What the current implementation in this release in dragon flow is something that we call selective proactive What we recognize is that with large environments when you have tenant isolation You don't really need to You don't really need to send all the information to all the compute nodes So we only send the relevant information to each compute node and just to Have a quick example of why this works. We can see in this example that we have two Open-stack networks and these networks are totally isolated right VMs from one network can't reach VMs From another and in this setup we have two compute nodes. Each has only VMs from one network So it's obvious from this example that compute node one only needs to get a topology information of network one It doesn't need to get everything else and this reduce the load on how we publish subscribe Changes to the environment Another nice thing is the pluggable pub sub if you look this is a common Open-stack cloud environment. You have many AP and neutron and API servers usually in active active mode And they are all talking with all the local controllers each one can receive an API change and Needs to transfer this change to the to the controller Molly will touch in a second. This is very important to keep all of these consistently and Send these information in a reliable way and we did it the important thing to note is that we abstract this from the database because the database Require some characteristic, but sometimes public subscribe require others So we didn't want to we wanted to be able to optimize them separately I'm going to touch with a little example of a networking service that we implemented in dragon flow distribute the DHCP So if you're familiar with the reference implementation The reference implementation adds a DHCP namespace at the network node for each network Which means if you have 10 tenants each with 100 networks You have 1,000 of these namespace in the network node and all the DHCP traffic is traversing to these network nodes And that's without talking about high availability namespaces and redundancy for this In dragon flow we we decide to to take a different approach We have all of these DHCP information in the database We can add this to the policy and essentially send this to all the local compute nodes And have a DHCP applications that answer DHCP offers an axe And it's it's say if you look at the implementation, it's relatively very easy And it's very easy to implement networking services like that But the point that I wanted to make in this slide and this is just an example We are building this very nice Infrastructure in dragon flow that you have the database you have this Mechanism that knows to distribute relevant information to all the compute nodes We get the high availability of running another controller and we have this Infrastructure and when you're writing your networking services, it makes life very easy You don't need to worry about all the other all the high availability things all the how Information is dispatched to all the compute nodes How can they sync between each other you have this very nice infrastructure, and we are stabilizing it to make it to Speed up the development of distributed networking services I'll hand over now to Mali that is going to show user Point of view on dragon flow Hello So hello, I work on Lima and I'm working for a double cloud So a double cloud is pure open-stack player in China And we help all enterprise customers to design build and operate open-stack clouds from 2012 And so currently we we've already built several large clouds in China scaling from 500 to more than 2000 physical nodes. So So here is Example a typical large-scale deployment for us. It is a public cloud for local enterprise in China And we cooperated with Gaussian Ewing and Dell and Intel in for this deployment and it the data center are located in Guizhou province in China, which is hot of the big data industry in China and We have two more than two thousand and the five hundred physical servers deployed in the data center and so far we have 500 physical servers have been virtualized by our open-stack distribution. So it is a large-scale cloud We deployed So here's several pictures which are taken in and around the data centers So for us we have several large-scale deployments and In order to run these open-stack These large open-stack cloud successfully we have our requirements that each component in open-stack installations are Scalable and reliable. So it is very important for us. So especially for those networking part So currently we use Neutron OVS plug-in and But as workloads increase we discovered some stable limitations in our deployments The first is messaging Okay, the first is messaging and I have already shared something in Vancouver Summit and I When I was in Vancouver and I presented a distributed the messaging system for open-stack So if any of you are interested in distributing the messaging and you can find the video in YouTube. So another stuff is the persistent high available database So it is very critical For almost all the open-stack components is a database layer. So If that your database layer cannot scale out as your cloud grows You may run into major issues with the rest of your open-stack deployments. So the database layer is very critical so And for me, I think that If any component of your open-stack installation cannot scale out so the whole systems cannot scale out so So for the persistent storage in open-stack. So currently open-stack use use Rational database measurement system heavily. So but The rational but the rational semantics is too strong for cloud and scout applications We discovered critical performance loss due to the rational Semantics. So according to our experience, we believe that centralized database clustering cannot practically scale out in data center cells So we need a distributed data storage system for open-stack, which is optimized for read and Which can be reached a consistent state for the whole system and which is always high availability High available and which is also able to work properly on the data work partition So these are our requirements for the data storage for open-stack So There are two kind of data storage systems Basically the asset system which has strong semantics for example the rational database and the base system Which is almost like the nautical servers, which is Key-value stores So according to our experience with refer based systems for data backhands The base is basically means basically available which has a soft state and which is even to your consistent so of course there are many options for this kind of data store systems So as described before in Dragonflow we implemented a pluggable key-value interface layer which can plug the Which can plug some the Almost all the key-value data stores for example currently we supported the ETCD RAM cloud zookeeper radius So fast the Dragonflow has a scalable persistent storage which doesn't rely on the rational database So is it enough? So the persistent storage is scalable and reliable because we take advantage of these Nautical solutions rather than using the rational database So the answer is no so in our production system We also discovered that there is a common problem Almost for all the SDN solutions all the third-party SDN solutions that if you need to Integrate with OpenStack Neutron, which is a database consistency problem so in OpenStack there the Neutron server uses the Rational database to store all the networked policies and For all the other SDN solutions They all have their own data They own data stores for example the open control the open daylight The middle net and also the Dragonflow we use these SDN solutions are all use key-value stores So here's the problem. We have two kind of distinct type of data stores the rational database for Neutron server and the The key value stores for SDN controller so How to make sure the two Kind of data stores are always consistent So this is a huge challenge so the the Neutron database is the rational database which has a strong semantics and Which stars the whole virtualized network topology for OpenStack and on the other hand the Dragonflow database is a key value Store it is a distributed database and it stars part of the topology that used in Dragonflow So here are some problems that we discovered in the production system For for example when Neutron database transaction is committed, but the related operations on Distributed database have failed so It is clear that the two database base are you are not consistent And the problem too so when we concurrently run multiple Neutron API on Give a Neutron object the Neutron database can deal with it a very very well because due to its Rational nature, but how about to the key value stores and the problem three is that The Neutron as you all know the Neutron use Nested transactions is heavily. So how about Dragonflow database how to translate these Rational nested transactions into the key store semantics key value semantics So there are many many problems because of the two database distinct So here are some options that which can Help to enhance the consistency of the two database The first one is okay. We just use the one database and then we remove the Neutron database So actually it is a very complicated solution Especially we're involving ML to so and it cannot be done in a short period of time And the next one is we introduce the key value store into Neutron But there are also some problems because Neutron have coded in a Rational manner so how to work with it is correct me It still needs much time on evaluation and deep discussion in the community So is there any other simple and straightforward solutions that which can make the two database always consistent So in Dragonflow we introduced a distributed log for calling for coordinating the two two two type of transactions in the in the database and It guarantees the authenticity of a given API and it implemented in the Neutron core plugin later So it is a project-based lock. So which allows API concurrency at a certain degree so actually when a user when a user runs an when you run the Neutron API and then we just look at the session API session and then we do the Neutron transactions and then we do the Key value key right key value operations and then we will release the lock So actually this this is a simple distributed lock and which can help us to coordinate the two type of Transactions and the implementation the detail of implementation is just like the two-phase commit so and in the next stage and then we will Introduce an object synchronization machining them which can In in this machining them all the objects stored in both databases are versioned so currently the Neutron doesn't have the version objects and Boss the dragon floor. So we introduce a version objects for both databases And then we also take advantage of the compare and swap operations of the key value stars, which Which helps update the version And finally when something unexpected happens for example the Neutron database The object in Neutron database is inconsistent with the dragon floor database and we synchronize the object according to its version so when we read object or write object to Neutron database and we read the Neutron object with its version and Then we do compare and swap according to the version and we write to the SDN database and finally we notify the dragon floor local controller to Flash the floors according to the give-up date So with this kind with this kind of machining them and we think that we can We can fix the income we We can guarantee that the two kind of distinct databases are always consistent everyone we want to discuss the roadmap that we have for the project and Leave some time for questions So before I go into the roadmap, I want to to discuss the challenges that led us to develop to establish this project and What we are facing now in the next releases. So one is the scalability currently with reference implementation according to our a Production and from the production of a w cloud We can reach around 500 compute node But this is with pushing the limits and a lot of tweaks to get to that limit So if you have a massive deployment above that it won't work Mainly it's the message queue, but there's an other limitation second one is performance the Performance of the data path is relatively low because we have a lot of extra Software stack for a virtual router and namespace Going to the dcp Etc and the the last one is operability We took care of some part of the operability Meaning that we don't need to manage a lot of namespace and dcp but a for this release we Did the distributed D not so we took out that part of the reliability managing the namespace, but we still use Centralized s not so one of the feature we have for the next road roadmap is a To take the namespace for the virtual router all together and to implement the distributed s not as well so For the scalability what we are planning and what our road map So currently with the reference implementation, we are around 500 We are currently in the mitaka release testing it we going into bigger and bigger environment and Simulating it we already reached 2000, but we open the next month or two To release the numbers so we are almost there for the 2000 number We are doing it the testing that we are doing currently we are focused on redis as the database and Redis as the pops up mechanism For the next release Our target of the scalability is to reach 4000 compute node in one pod meaning in one region one open stack region We think it will be with one of the database We are not sure which it could be redis with zero MQ zero MQ for the pops up showing a a lot of advantages in manner of scale We introduced the selective Proactive distribution that girl introduced us allows us to scale even further Currently we doing it by the tenant so we distribute if a compute node as VMs only on one tenant It will get the object and the topology of only of that tenant. Of course, we have to exclude the public Public object that like public network between tenants that you need to distribute to everyone But we are open next releases to go into lower level like a girl showed that you have even for one tenant you have two isolated network, so the one thing between the compute node and For n plus two we call it we open not the Newton release the release after that To be able to reach around even 10,000. We think that one major Thing that will allow us to do it is move to a Lazy mode meaning a reactive model So we won't distribute all the data to all the node But in lazy mode pull the data whenever we need it Of course will pay some latency to do that, but we think so that's our Roadmap of the project is very ambitious. We know but I Can for sure say about what where we stand in the 2000 we feel very good currently Their road map other road map for the project so for the mitaka We have additional db driver zoo keeper reddies the selective data distribution that the gal covered And I talked it about it a little bit the pluggable pops of mechanism Plugable pops of mechanism allow you for database for instance rum cloud doesn't have a Notify option so for zoo keeper. It doesn't have a notify option so you can use the pops up to notify and As gal said if the database support it you can use it But what we found out that the database are not optimized to the exact use case we have So if we have a pop sub applicative bap sub that sends the event it works much better With lower latency and much more scale Distributed d-not is no namespace. It's currently only flows Implemented and security group And security group we introduce it and we introduce a nice mechanism Gal is a blog about it that Reduced the number of flows so we don't have Flow exactly as the number of connected port We have less than that For next release what our plan so our article poor binding I will touch it in a minute We got a lot of requests for that mainly for Tunneling off-loading to the top of the rec and I will show it in a minute Containers and we'll touch it in the next slide as well They we will support the service chaining the SFC We are planning to support SFC as the base But we want to add another type of we call it topology service injection So and I will touch that a little bit further the Intel inter cloud connectivity L2 gateway is a Like a software emulation using some of the code there is in the obvious but allow us to to implement the the software emulation for a L2 gateway switch and optimize scale and performance so First of all with the ML to so what what we we currently are a core plug-in in neutron We are switching to ML to mainly to support hierarchical port binding the main use case is supporting villain up to the top of the rec and off-loading the VXLan tunneling to the the tour For this we would have to support another feature the villain segmentation that we don't have so villain will be supported as well for For the new turn release this will allow another controller ODL or any other SDN control This is just an example of the L to control the Hardware overlay the underlay we want in the dragonfall to focus on the virtual overlay and only on the virtual overlay and network service distribution Another feature that we get a lot of requests and we will support for a Neutron release is a container support will support nested Nestor container inside the VM we are we don't have the spec yet. It will be With a obvious inside the VM and we have an option without it. We want to use the IP villain Maybe we have a lot of option or with a nested the OBS If someone is interested you can come to the To the IRC meeting and we are now designing it. So it's in design the Container and we will support of course the career integration and Support the career driver in in dragon flow so a networking service chain this is we from the Work session that we did Today we understand this is a very very important Feature so for sure will support SFC as it is We understand that it's something that can drive more adoption to to dragon flow and it's a needed functionality But we other than supporting SFC We want to introduce a new a new type of service and we call it topology based service injection and allowing you to bring an SDN application that can be centralized SDN application and can take Control of part of the user topology and get of course in a secure way We will take care that it's Doesn't override the other tenants and it doesn't interact with other application and we would do the abstraction that it will this SDN application cannot touch and Interfere with other things, but we wanted to be something like Surface injection look you say I want my SDN application To be in the router. So it's something similar like IP table as a the post route prayer route Interaction so you can do it over the user topology and because we have all as Mention earlier we have all the user topology Inside each compute node we think it's doable and we didn't define yet the API how the user will configure it and How it will do it, but we have a lot of use case that are not A feasible with the regular SFC and will be feasible with the this service injection looks Other other application that we want to support and this is Showing again, how you can push the smartness to the edge one of them is IGMP application in I I don't know all the Implementation of the network in the cloud But some of them what they do when they want to give a VM multicast and if you want to want to send the multicast It's translated on the overlay to broadcast and it being broadcast to all the compute nodes or all the hypervisor The IGMP application is already in review. We have the spec. We have the code. We didn't merge it yet so what it basically will do they the Dragonflow controller will answer to IGMP join and IGMP live right to the distributed database which address is listening and then when someone wants to send on a Multicast address, he will send it only to the compute node that SVM that listen on this address. This is for IPTV or other use cases mostly telco We want to support distributed load balance there, but not north south east-west Brute force prevention is already in review First of all, we have it for DCP. So the VM cannot compromise the local DCP agent So we have like great limiting on the amount of DCP request that the VM can do in a minute or in a second DNS service it's something that we didn't started yet, but we have to start Currently the local DCP just provide the DNS address But we think that DNS service and the distributed load balancer the east-west go really together But we didn't finalize it yet Another interesting application that we are currently developing is the distributed metadata proxy I don't know if you are all familiar but currently in the network node You have a distributed the metadata proxy that all it does is Adding an HTTP adder and then go into the Nova and metadata server. So We trying to eliminate this service altogether and to have it as another distributed service inside the the dragon flow and fault port fault detection we have some idea how to implement the via flow port fault detection and and To have an application for that and so the documentation of dragon flow is available in our wiki we have a Lunchpad with bugs and blueprint We have a weekly IRC meeting and what we got until now from the work session that we need a another time that is good for the North America time zone so we probably do Changing so one time in a time that is good for China and another time that is good for for the US So we will update it soon But we are always available in OpenStack dragon flow the IRC channel We have a Vagran deployment tool that deploys a multiple compute node and one controller So it's fairly easy to test the deployment and start playing with it another thing that we try to do and I think in this point it's still like that and we are Making a lot of effort to live it like this is to keep it simple So if you go into the dragon flow code, you will see it's very simple it's not a lot of code and It's all written in Python. So there's the limitation of performance, but it's very easy to To get involved and to start working in dragon flow. It's it's very well abstracted and The layers so if you just want to develop an application even a new application You can use all the infrastructure and don't worry about the DB consistency high availability Anything this has been taken care by the infrastructure and We have the work session. So we had two of them already we have a tomorrow To working session and on Friday we have the regular Working session of the development We see more and more people in the work session and of course everyone is invited in the in the Tomorrow session we're going to talk about public subscribe next phase Because currently we support only public subscribe the publisher are only the neutron server next step will be that the we need the Publisher from the compute node as well. So it's multiple publisher multiple subscriber from the compute node themselves and we're going to talk about SFC and Survey chaining on the next one and now if someone asks question, we will be happy to answer So I have a couple questions, but one is about the NAT stuff Have you guys thought about implementing some kind of a scalable? Stateless NAT at the edge layer So stateless NAT so you could basically have multiple NAT nodes and just load balance between them using layer 3 ECMP So so you mean for the S NAT for the distributed shirt Well mostly for for floating IPs for for D NAT, but so for that to I suppose for D NAT We implemented already. So if the compute node it you can have What are you saying that not all the compute node would have they should have a layer at the edge Separate from the compute node. So you do not at the edge of your cloud It's actually possible. It's something that we thought about but currently you you can choose if the compute node it if it has an interface on the public network he You can offload the floating IP directly but we it's actually not so far I Think that this the approach that you are saying is something that we will do it There's not case So definitely have something like this. Yeah, that's not what we see it won't make sense In the S NAT. It's much more complicated because it's state fall not and We don't see us distributing it to all the nodes but it's an interesting use case and if you want to We should think about it for D NAT as well currently D NAT is Basically only dealing with that the local compute node offloading so for the distributed D NAT Don't you have to have some kind of a shared? VLAN across all racks then a shared layer to basically across all racks to bring that down to the compute nodes Right that external network. You need public network connectivity. Yes, but it has to be a shared layer too, right? Why should you do you? Floating IP is you attach it to one instance, right? One VM right by the layer to broadcast. Yes, we need yes Yes, so that's kind of Do you want to have like a pure? Yeah, it makes sense what you suggested. It could be our next step. We need to think about it currently We develop it only for the local compute node But it makes sense to have like some edge devices that serve multiple compute node maybe in the rack or okay and last question is a Production ready as it stands today It's very close to it. What we are doing now is test and we didn't release them but we're doing data path test that showing really good result and control plane test and It's in the process to be pushed to a testing pod in our company public cloud so It's in the A double cloud is looking for pushing it so it's on the worst of production ready and It's currently being tested for production Hi, it appears to me that you have two layers of Plugable database one is at the controller the other at the compute nodes. Is that correct? No, what we have is what basically there is the the database What do you have is the database solution then you have clients right you have clients on all your compute nodes for the controllers Reading this and you have the same client on the neutron server writing Okay, so so now on the control side I understand the rationale of using a no sequel or key value store Do you customize the the hashing mechanism to? Somehow more intelligently map, you know the tenant network state versus which shard this state goes to Or you just blindly you know do a consistent hashing. This is something we discussed about doing using I guess the shredding I mean We are playing to do this based on the topology. So the selective proactive is going to be something we are going to Basically shred it according to tenants or according to into the topology, but it's not there yet. No the topology is But are you asking about consistency no, I'm asking about You know eventually when you scale out, right? You will determine which states goes to which shot or which note Yes, so you can do it blindly which may have implications, right or you can do it in a more topology aware way Which can give you more scale out capabilities. Yeah, so currently we do it by the project the tenant ID But we hope to drill down more Thanks Are there any other questions? Thanks for asking that question had the same one about been one of your PBDs You had the database and the compute nodes. So that's I had the same question. Thanks for asking So there's only one database on the controller side, right? So the other question I had was what is the cost of your distributed lock? Isn't it limiting your scalability? Okay, I let Mali implemented that so it will be best so but we just it's just the first Yeah, yeah, the distributed lock is just the first phase and in the next release And then we plan to use the version object to get rid of the lock problem So currently we use the distributed lock because it is easy to implement and it guarantees It helps guarantees the API atomicity to make to make sure the two database has the same data Committed to the to the two to the two database, but it is just the first phase And also I think in terms of scale the the main issue is how you distribute this information to all the local controllers It's less about The neutron API to the to the database. This is sently mostly The most of the loads from open stack to the database is about reads usually from horizon or from Nova So we haven't yet. I think so any bottlenecks on the API And we use the database itself as the mechanism to do the distributed lock SQN database, okay Thank you. Can I just ask another question? So You so I assume that in the the controller database, you're only holding the abstract topology information, right? You're not holding like in the OVN. You're holding pretty much a mapping of the Open-flow Configurations right now. We are holding the topology as you say but again in next phases We see a lot of applications that could use this to distribute other information So my question is how big a data we're talking about so this gentleman talking about two thousand, you know 2000 nodes, how how large does it translate into because it's not so large. It's not so large, right? So now what's the need of scale out at that database later? Okay, that'd be fine if I just do a mysql with multiple replicas because the number of clients so it's even even some of the No sequel database that we tested ever problem scaling out to hundreds and thousand nodes So only some of them know to handle this really good And when you want to have a number of clients then you need something that is No, no not centralized And it's like no talking but mostly the read Transactions, yes, if it's read Let's say you can scale out the read of my sequel right? By adding From from thousand of nodes. It's almost impossible No, I'm asking so so I remember at some point in the presentation and it's not only read It will be right because we would have to add the port status and Okay, currently we don't put port status and multicast information and other information currently from the compute node We just write the chassis ID once the the hypervisor come up. But later we would have to add Do a lot of right from the compute node themselves, but but even for read we found out it Very hard. We don't some kind of cache layer that this no sequel or vibe. Thanks Okay. Thank you very much


All right, good morning Simon trainers. Welcome back on the Wednesday with today 24th. All right Everybody see what happened with SOS.  Where did this thing come from out of nowhere? Not the clock right in the morning, bam 800,000 share buyers just came in here and ran the damn thing up literally almost two Dollars listen so about being the right place the right time, but she's starting to crash down But other than that what a what a great run up So good to see you to Michael Lewis then Ken good everyone looks like some people made some money today Looks like can't be did pretty well this morning about two G's good for you time Probably take the rest of the day off good to have you back So everyone so we got a couple of good stocks. I'm moving this morning yesterday, you know, you know I told you I'm always excited Tuesdays Wednesdays Thursdays best days of the week to trade and you know what if you didn't do Okay, don't worry about it You're gonna lose it's part of the game You can always make it back and you could always come back and trade again So don't worry about it. It happens all the time, you know, the big thing is you learn from those mistakes That's the most important thing But there are a couple of stocks that I'm moving and we'll get to it but before we do that I just want to remind everybody Today at three o'clock. I'm doing a live trading challenge on level four with book mat and tomorrow We have the cyber expo. I told you guys a little bit. I told you everyone about it and Just make sure you do register for that event I posted up on Facebook and YouTube live and also I posted the cyber group room We got four great speakers when to start tomorrow at 12 o'clock Do not miss it best time excuse to get away and if you can't make all of them That's okay You at least get the recordings and you can go back and review it But listen, you got some it's a lot of work for getting these speakers in to take the time to come in here You know, it's a lot of planning. Don't miss the opportunity. We do it for you All right, because you're gonna the worst thing that happens that you learn something the greatest thing can happen is you find a mentor You find somebody you can you could you could adapt to and you can actually use it towards your everyday trading All right, let's talk about yesterday because there are a couple of good stocks that did make some big moves yesterday I want to start off with the the DLP N That would happen yesterday. So we change the time frame on this one So you can see what happened here So this stock had a really really nice move yesterday You could see how the stock went from right a gate ran from five dollars and you know, literally I only I didn't like about it. It was like it was kind of slow It made that nice little pop and then she obviously moved up Put this a five-minute chart to see a little bit better She had a big move But she came out of nowhere right at the end of the day and just popped right after hours now I remember we do trade after hours too, you know, I mean, so please don't look at it We don't but but it was a great move and it just literally just kept going up and up I have it back on the watch list, but I didn't put it on my a list I put on my b-list because it ran all the way to $40. I remember just think about this for a second The stock was $5 yesterday It and when it's high as 40. Did you what I said? It was at $5 yesterday $5. It's at 40. Okay, so You don't think there's ever gonna be another GameStop.  So that's basically have to look at it. So Let's put this back to normal and let's go back and look what else that moved this moved also yesterday We had the bn tc Also another really nice move. Let's expand this one. You can see it right there Had a big pop rando gating and she died and it added nowhere right at the end of the day She decided to wake up. Yeah, she woke up and she went from six dollars all the way to 10 Okay, another big move never remember I always tell you this there are two times when to trade It's the first hour and the last hour So you don't need to trade all over the course of the whole day.  You work at those times You'll do well and yesterday you could see look at the volume here Three million share blocks are just coming in coming in coming in coming in and boom Just look at that bottom volume chart orders iceberg orders everything that you look for was working out great And last one is the ho fv. I want to bring up That also had a really nice move yesterday Right at at the end of the day thing just literally ran from four hours all the way up to about seven Another really really nice move and she just kept making nice little foul snow flags um higher highs everything that you were taught here in class And just worked out great. So that's what yesterday. That's what you missed Nice tuesday. Guess what today's wednesday. So wednesday is a good trading day. There's a lot going on So I have ho fe back on the watch list again So remember sometimes we see these stocks they make their big moves And you know, they will trickle into the following day and it does happen You also would happen with tea cat, right? Let me bring up tea cat again We all know what happened with tea cat tea cat was the same thing Tea cat started at around five dollars. You could see it right here It ran to 10 ran to 20 ran to 40 ran to 50 ran to 70 I mean like this is what what what happens now she's back down to 53 It's a short squeeze. Come on. I mean I told you this yesterday How does a company's valuation go from let's say 10 million to 10 billion, you know in two days like That's what's a short squeeze and you know what as day traders We love stuff like that and I know josh Was teaching that in class the other day which by the way old golden platinum students If you're here in a cyber group room, don't forget class is going on today So do not miss it at 10 30.  Let's talk and let's go let's go back and talk about what's going on this morning So we know what happened with sos. Okay, so sos had a big big pop Just want to show you a couple of things here on sos All of a sudden which is what I talk about today on book map So anyway, right here you could see the stock got a big order came in and then all of a sudden it ran And it and it met its match. Okay. Why did it stop at? a 20 okay, why Why not night? Why couldn't stop at seven? Well, very simple all of a sudden the iceberg started coming in 50 000 80 000 There's a hundred thousand chair seller out there. I mean it's black and white Okay, that's it 100 000 shares and another 65 000 shares. So that's how she got back down to 750 now. Can we break that? Absolutely If you're watching youtube right now and you're like, how do I know that's real come and do a trial jump in my room You could we'll use your money and we'll execute that guy. We'll see how fake that is also today I'm gonna go I'm gonna spend a lot of time talking about this. Remember, I'm gonna be on book map I'm doing an event. So for some of you here that want to come and join us You know, you're more than happy to on book map. I'm going to be doing a live trading Challenge regarding about how to use book map. So it's going to be something very different that I haven't done in a long time But anyway, follow the money. That's all you got to do. So that one is going on the watch list The big winner this morning was zekin Okay, so who made money on zekin?  Hold on. Where's my chat? There's my chat SOS now that's not the one I'm looking for Okay, here we go. So I'm just gonna bring I'm just gonna share this with people over here Oh, can they see this? I don't know if it's gonna do a triple on you guys over here But you can see here on youtube Um, let's keep doing that All right, so it was that Yeah, right here you see zekin is he right here on the on the chat for people watching youtube zkin Is popping so I just want to bring this back over here and when I made that call out Let's put this back over here. Let's make it see so when I bring that up over here See right here. It's around 8 30 when I made that call out was at 8 29 It started popping so even if you were a little late and you got in around 8 40 If you got in the 8 40 and you chased it from 11, you got at 13 You still did pretty well because up until 9 o'clock it ran to 16. So boom big orders came in iceberg orders filled in Everyone did awesome, which was great on that trade. Once again, that's what we're trained to do Follow the money. That was a really really nice trade there. Let me change to a one minute chart Now you can see starting to break down starting to go down But listen, you don't need to max it out if you bought at 15 you sold it at 15 50 You had a thousand shares. You made 500 bucks Just a hundred thousand dollars salary. There's nothing wrong with that. Don't let anybody say that, you know, you're wasting your time A couple of the stocks also um that moved this morning a pto. It's another one. Um, this stock was pretty interesting because If you watch the orders on this stock right here when the stock started making a run Um, you could see you can't see it on level three because they're not really there anymore But if you pop over here on level four, you could see the order started coming coming in right here And you had about 15 000 shares. This guy just pulled his order right here. There was about a 12 000 to about 13 000 you could see that right there. Uh, and then it started backing off But when it had that big move earlier, there was no sellers out there until he came in right around here When you had that 28 000 shares seller out there. They're still out there But um, but anyway, that was a nice little pop and pre-market ran from 8 a.m Um, and it ran from it was cheap you two Uh 488 to about almost six bucks. That's not bad. That's not bad for a day's pay So anyway, she's up 41.   It's going on the b list. All right Another stock I want to keep a very close eye on and you guys know this from yesterday. Okay Keep an eye on this stock freq What happened freq yesterday? It got crushed got destroyed It got demolished. I mean I Look, I can't even explain how bad it was with this stock But this stock literally, you know, we talked about was a $60 stock. It went all the way down to seven All right Now we know pharmaceutical stocks don't come back and we saw that happen yesterday But sometimes after the second or third day it will come back.  Maybe instead of doing extension on my house Maybe I'll buy back into my company because you know, I don't know it could be a good deal But we won't know until we watch it, but she's trending up. She's up about 13 percent from yesterday All right, let's go on the b list and see we got going there because sometimes sometimes the stock and the b list Do hop up on a date on the a list Uh C scv showed up on my watch list another stock of 31 percent nice cheap stock slow mover And You could see here. She was pretty good this morning around seven thirties She's making higher highs, but all of a sudden she took a big crap out right here So this one's not terrible. We'll keep an eye on it that I put on the b list I already told you about the h o f v. That's on the b list d l p n Is on the b list. This is second protocol. That's a b list means d l p n um au vi That one this one also a 20 26 percent trade some decent buy about 300 000 shares She's creeping up a little bit. I'm not too crazy about the spread and remember the spread is very very important You got to be you got to be That's the most expensive part of the trade because remember you did not make anything until you sell it So that one also looks good and amc obviously making a little bit of a comeback From yesterday took the start of reversing, but she's up a little bit this morning Remember listen, we've been trading amc for a while. This is not the amc. We remember back in what is that? Uh back in You know november september, you know in You know in uh january february when it ran from like four dollars to 20 All right be very careful a lot of algorithms in the stock It's not an easy stock to trade like it used to okay Uh, it's like you got to get the right time at the right place because it's got 10 cent swings 10 cents is a lot You know thousand shares a hundred dollars.  Did you really think game stop is worth 180 dollars? Then why are you selling it if you really thought was worth 500 dollars? Why are you selling it? This is all why we love the art of trading? Okay trading means you're in and out You're trading Okay, you're not an investor Okay, you're not an analyst.   So be very careful. People still think want to hold on to it Somebody's gonna get burned. Somebody's gonna get burned. So be very careful. I know Ernie's came out Uh, what else we have normans calling out the al y a is making a move You know, like I said, it's I had it on my watch list I took it off I'll put it, you know, she was good this morning, but she started breaking down norm. So I wasn't too sold on it That's why I got out of it Michael's calling out the can. Oh, yeah, I forgot can did did pretty well yesterday too Can we did really well with this stock? Yeah, I put can on the b-list look like it's moving But remember go back to your journals and how you traded can was not the easy stock to trade too If you didn't get at the right time That's what that's where it is and and you know what? Yesterday, I got I got a little caught on a couple of trades yesterday And I and I lost money on certain stocks and you guys know which ones they were And if I didn't get out of those trades, I would have got I would really probably got hurt pretty pretty bad Because it looked like it was breaking it, but what was happening what we taught you, you know And josh can talk about class today. I'm gonna talk about yesterday refreshing refreshing refreshing the guy kept updating his quote updating his quote updating his quote I'm like, damn this guy's not letting go. You know, he's he keeps posting 10,000 20,000 Very important. You know that if we didn't see that happening You know at that moment in time, we would have got really hurt. All right guys, listen We got to go sorry to talk a little bit longer than I should we got about 10 minutes before the market opens up If you're watching youtube facebook live, you want to do a trial like us friend us pay $9, you know Got nothing to lose Do it you jump in the trading room cyber traders got class today. Do not forget and also Let me just bring this back up again before I forget um, where is it? just bring up the The page again the cyber trading expo No, just going to bring this up right here. So if you have not registered tomorrow, please go there Don't miss this opportunity You rarely have cyber expo's and get a lot of these best traders in You know in one place So reserve your spot. You're not going to miss it. You're not you're not going to be disappointed Good luck everyone. Happy trading cyber traders in cyber group room. We'll start commenting. What's the market opens up? Be safe and youtube will be back here at 2 30 for the afternoon meeting So if you miss the morning, you can always trade the afternoon. Good luck everyone. Happy trading. Be safe


Internal Revenue Service IRS Tax News special Saturday help from IRS available without an appointment on April 9th IR 2022-76 April 4th 2022 Washington as the federal tax filing deadline approaches later this month. The internal revenue service today announced that many taxpayer assistance centers will be open around the country this Saturday April 9th for face to face help, which is great because I think they closed down most of those in prior years due to the pandemic and the social distancing and whatnot. And I think it's really helpful for a lot of people to get face to face help. So you have a link to that here. If you want to check that out or recommend that possibly to anybody else to check out this special Saturday help is available from 9am to 4pm and no appointment is needed. Normally, TACs are only open by appointment on weekdays. Quote, we are inviting anyone who wants or needs some assistance to stop by in quote said IRS wage and investment division commissioner and taxpayer experience officer Ken Corbin. Quote, we designed these extra weekend hours to make it easier for taxpayers to resolve an issue inquire about their account or work with IRS. If they have an obligation they cannot meet whatever the case face to face help will be available on this special day without an appointment in quote. People can also ask about reconciling advanced child tax credit. There's a link to that here or third round economic impact payments. There's a link to that here or inquire about various other services available well at an IRS office. If assistance from IRS employees specializing in these services is not available, the individual will receive a referral for these services. IRS staff will schedule appointments for a later date for deaf or hard of hearing individuals who need sign language interpreter services. Foreign language interpreters will be available. While no tax return preparation will be available at any IRS TAC the IRS dot gov website contact your local office. There's a link to that here lists all service services provided taxpayers can make payments by check or money order. The IRS will not accept cash during these events come prepared with paperwork. The IRS urges individuals to bring the following information current government issued photo identification social security cards and or items for members of the household including spouse and dependence if applicable. Any IRS letters or notices received and related tax and financial documents during the visit IRS staff may also request the following information. A current mailing address and bank account information to receive payments or refunds by direct deposits. The IRS follows Centers for Disease Control social distancing guidelines. There's a link to that here and for COVID-19 and availability may change without notice. It's mandatory for people to wear face masks and social distance at these events when required by CDC guidelines such as in high transmission counties. Taxpayers can get help preparing and filing their 2021 federal tax returns using these free safe and convenient resources. Any individual or family earning $73,000 or less in 2021 can use tax software from providers who make their online products available through IRS free file. There's a link to that here at no cost. So the software really helpful these days especially as the code tax code changes laws change and people's working situations and personal situations change rapidly in the last couple of years. So that's there. There are products in English and Spanish free help prepare free help preparing tax returns is available at a volunteer income tax assistance center. That's the VITA or tax counseling for the elderly location the TCE sites the income limit for VITA assistance is $58,000. Find the closest free tax return preparation help use the VITA locator tool. There's a link to that here. You can call this number. There'll be a link to this if you want to check out that number here. Find the TCE AARP tax aid site. Use the AARP site locator tool or call<PHONE_NUMBER>. More information down below at the links how to register for certain online self help tools. Reconciling your advanced child tax credit payments on your 2021 tax return recovery rebate credit webpage to learn about filing requirements for the recovery rebate credit. There's links to all that wonderful stuff and there'll be a link to this in the description.


You're listening to barbell logic brought to you by barbell logic online coaching where each week We take a systematic walk through strength training and the refining power of voluntary hartshow Welcome to the barbell logic podcast. I'm Scott Hamburg and there's Matt Reynolds over there and what's up? Happy anniversary Matt. Thank you. It is Let's see. What is what is next Thursday when this comes out? Yeah, we will have just passed at that at that point by the time this by the time this releases. I will be Celebrating my 20th anniversary with my beautiful bride Rachel and so that's a long time It's a long time for people there are 40 We follow the Scott Hamburg plan That's got married young start popping out babies wish I popped out a few more. Yeah, our Anniversary is the 31st. It will be the 23rd. I think I remember when you guys had your 20th Yeah, it's been a long time. It's been good. It's been my whole adult life Yeah, it's kind of cool to be I have been married For almost more than 50% of my life. Yeah, I'm there not quite but I'm close. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you've lived uh You've lived with Rachel longer to live with your parents That's true. That's true and Rachel we've been together since 97 So that's 23 years me and charity have either been dating or engaged or married since about 1989 or 90. Yeah, I would actually say that we've both been that since eternity passed When it was set forth and predestined that we would eventually be together gross We've been we've already been together for all eternity past and future um I coined a word yesterday. Did you see it? Yeah, I did. What was it? Oh, it was the eco. Don't tell me It's the opposite of oaky, right? Yeah, it's eco. It's oaky spelled backwards But it's what we call the californians that are fleeing The cultural and economic dust bowl they've created and coming back to the midwest and the texas to ruin texas Yeah, and we're in and oklahoma and uh You know we're full I don't feel like we have a ton of those. I don't know. Maybe we've got more than I think In missouri. Oh, they're coming. They're coming Well, of course, it's cheap cheap living out here Well, until they get here and they make all their bad decisions. Yeah, I know, but no, I'm I'm well aware Canada They're uh, they're the equivalent of their federal funds rate Flip negative yet last night. Oh really? Uh-huh What a weird, isn't this a weird time? Uh, it's the weirdest. It's the weirdest, man It's the weirdest, but I've been I've been saying maybe a little deflation Yep I know I know You did say that I don't want I don't want to believe we're talking about this and I was like look We're proud are we Scott hamburg are we headed for inflation? Because of all of the money That the federal government or the federal governments in the western world are pumping into the culture and you You noted that in fact none of that is in fact real New money. It's not they're not printing money, right? They are they're buying debt Yeah, the way and eventually that debt's going to go bad and when that debt goes bad, then it actually gets wiped off the table And there's less money Yeah, we like to talk about the printers go brr, you know and they print money But they really don't what they do is they they loan you money that never existed And they just write numbers down in your bank account and then you buy a house with those numbers Yeah, but if you buy the house and you never pay the loan back that money is destroyed and it makes the money supply contract and So that's one deflationary pressure that of course if nobody's working if the unemployment rate is enormous and it is Then people can't afford to buy things that makes demand to go down That's deflationary Um And there are some other factors too, but uh, I'm not sure that it's deflation But it's not clear to me that it's inflationary Uh, so it's interesting and you know a whole bunch of they'll balance each other out And that's where they'll stay the same. I'm hoping for the deflation Which uh, but um, it'll be It'll be disruptive for sure. Sure Good times We've been cursed with living in interesting times Yes, uh, it has been very strange.  It's so weird.  Hey. Hey, though.  No hand sanitizer. They did all that all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah, and um Everything's so odd a guy a guy wrote a poem And posted it in the comments on the online great books podcast fiat Listen to this. This is chris klinefelter I assume you've cleared this it's okay to say well, he posted it as a comment on On a public on a public deal, you know, okay? And uh, he's a member there. He's a good guy. He writes a lot of poetry He says I wonder if I were young in this year of plague You know like before when I was in my prime and the life of juggling was still to come Would I be likely to fall in love at first sight from six feet away? Like I did that day long ago by the river when a blind girl asked my name and my eyes became hers All in a moment. Could I see the fine person beneath the n95 mask if I had the nerve to ask Would I show up with roses and rubber-gloved hands and say that I liked hers with delicate fingers showing beautifully beneath tight stretch latex How can we find the magic moment when ppe must fall and all our souls bear all With courage and passion at the spot of the ball making it hard to see the ones we long to touch It's pretty good pretty good But like what is what does romance look like? Oh god, I can't imagine. Yeah, I can't imagine Well, and you know again, we're the lucky ones because we're in the midwest We're just a little more rural a little more spread out And so most of the cities in the midwest of at least partially open Imagine what it'd be like to still be in Manhattan and have everything closed I don't want to be in Manhattan things normal. Yeah, but not right now. No way man. You couldn't pay me enough Uh, Caitlyn This is one of our female listeners. This is our 26 female listener. She says excellent another female listener here started listening You guys earlier this year at the recommendation of my husband I was previously at a classes only studio, which I fully credit for getting me interested in working out again Um, her knees and such started feeling beat up Um, she says I can't even tell you how grateful I am for your podcast introducing me to LP today I deadlifted 205 for five for a new pr the most ever did before that was 135 So I keep remembering what you guys say about time jump by the way Yeah, something right there, huh? May I mean what she may meant was it was the most you'd ever deadlifted before She started this program. Yeah, maybe anyway, but that's good She said I kept remembering what you say about time speeding up when you're lifting and two seconds feel like 15 She said my last rep to feel like it took forever But it went up and my knees don't hurt and I'm a little heavier than I was when I was doing those cardio classes But I feel like I move around way easier. She said, uh, this is way longer winded that I anticipated more women should listen It's more fun to be strong than skinny. I have a lot more to go for some People, uh, my numbers are at their warm-ups, but I'm proud of them. Yeah, I'm proud of you too, ma'am. Way to go Good job. Good job, Caitlyn. Hey, uh Do what Caitlyn says women listen to us You're you're speaking to an audience who isn't listening. I know I know but the joke's good I gotta go where the comedy is man.  Yeah, that's great But then here's the thing Caitlyn's not the exception to the rule That's Caitlyn's what happens when anyone trains Regardless of your demographic we we way too often in the fitness world Try to make this about demographics. Oh, you're young. You're old. You're skinny. You're fat. You're male. You're female Listen, this stuff works for everybody. Yep. You will PR. You'll PR. That's the deal. You just go PR It's kind of funny. I've got I had a bunch of clients do the online Lockdown smackdown And the last day or two. Sorry clients for what I'm about to say. I love you So here hear the hear the heart behind what I'm about to say They're they're reporting back to me about how they did how they placed in the lockdown smack Oh, no, no, and they don't understand that I don't care at all how they placed I've already celebrated what they did. They they all went out and hit PRs I don't care if they took first or third or didn't place at all If they went out and hit three PRs or for some for actually a handful of my clients It was the first meet they ever did so they even post a total that's wonderful And so man, I couldn't care less like I listen I know for some of you guys out there you want to figure out where you place But I just don't it just doesn't matter to me where you place.  Not that being said big john floater Comes in second in the middle weight for in his division, right? Yeah, and by the way and about us in about a Seven or eight day peak like it like like right days out from the meat. He's like, hey, I'm thinking about I've just he's been doing LP for a long time come You know, he's been coming coming back from one of his little layoffs that he has every once in a while So we've been we've been doing LP. He's like, what do you think about me doing the online meet? I was like, yeah, let's do it. Like you're pretty strong He's at the point in LP where he's hitting PRs and LP again for you know, the fourth time that he's ever done LP So he's but he hasn't done any triples or doubles or singles or anything So we just had him do like one or two workouts of low reps going into the The lockdown smackdown and the guy the guy did really well So he just you know, and I think he would still tell you he let you know He's not he's not at his all-time besties, but he's Oh, he's got lots of he's got many years of PRs in front of him and then a charity's client ed keen He won the uh masters middle weights not just and not just client the coach for us too.  What a great his story. He's awesome because he started as as just a client And uh, sort of as my client and then I had charity start working with him We worked with him together when charity was a An uber early intern and then she's taken over as his head coach for several years now And and then he went past the pbc and now he's a coach for us and he works for us and what a great guy He did great super. That's kind of proud of him Jay Jason thanks for all the content you put out. I am 32 years old with young kids My recovery is not optimal. I would consider myself to be an intermediate lifter He says I'm having sinus and septum surgery What would you change if anything programming wise leading up to the surgery? He's got some more questions here, but we'll leave it at that. Yeah, nothing Now after the surgery. Yeah, and then he says the doctor said no heavy lifting for a week after if it was you How would you go about returning to training? Oh So we the doctor says one week So that's that scares me. I'll be honest now I've had several clients do this and this tends to be the comment I wonder though how often doctors understand the pressure That our clients are under under a strong val salva and lifting now if you do the val salva, correct Most of the pressure should be below the or south of the glottis But for a lot of people, it's not There's a lot of pressure in their face And so I come back pretty slow and just test her out a little bit and see how it goes I definitely would not try to speed up the process.  I think I'd be That that doesn't seem wise. That didn't seem logical to me. So no, I think I'd start light I don't think I'd have a real hard val salva. I think I'd you know, how many times we thought a doctor was too aggressive That's like the first time in my life Yeah, all the tissue up in there is really vascular You know people get nose bleeds just when they sneeze sometimes, you know, and if you're going to have some work in there I'd lay off for Two or three weeks I think I would too like come play completely off if you want if you for a week for sure And like if you want to come back after a week or two and you want to start doing some real light Body weight stuff put a empty barbell on your back Depending on how much you squat Maybe you do 135 but like I wouldn't be pushing I wouldn't try I wouldn't reduce what you're working with by 10 and jump back in. I think that's a real bad idea Yeah, wait wait wait two or three weeks. I think and then he says well, how would you go back to training? um I assume that you're going to have a general anesthesia And I have found if you've undergone general There's something about it. Like, you know, those those drugs are toxic.  I mean, it ain't good Uh, you're going to have to deload 15 percent minimum. I would say when people go under general It messes them up bad. I would agree I I think I would deload 50 percent And then just make, you know, like maybe jump 5 percent every workout you remember 50 55 60 65 70 75 So in you know in three weeks, you're back to where you were By jump, you know, something like that just to make sure everything is fine By the way, I just a quick note on that general. I said anesthesia Yeah, I've had a handful of surgeries and hernias and appendectomy and stuff like that The only time in my life that I think I was truly clinically depressed for about 10 days or two weeks was immediately after general anesthesia It screwed me up Like it was weird and I remember Rachel going, what is wrong with you?  I mean, I dude, I was depressed. I couldn't point to it. I didn't know what it was I wasn't anxious. I wouldn't worry about I just wanted to crawl into a hole and die And it was and it was from general. I don't know. That's all that's all I can come up with is that it's from general anesthesia So it is nasty.  Even if even if you don't have trouble with bleeders in your nose and all that stuff Just just getting knocked out's bad James Wait a minute. Would you like me to read a review? Is it positive or negative? Oh, it's both Okay, then let's hear it Very good five stars Okay Scott is awesome super smart interesting opinions while Reynolds is obviously knowledgeable His personality doesn't always agree with me a little full of himself at times But listen every week and appreciate the content. Well, thank you. That's nice and probably accurate Yeah, and then and then then this other guy. He says Matt is cool.  I have these podcasts that I love And I've heard a podcast that I hate and I've never written any of them. That's so odd To be fair, to be fair. I ask them to do it That is true. That is true. James says thanks for the great content He really enjoyed the great the getting started series. He says he's 42 5 11 and 190 pounds starting LP Where after a long layoff I had gotten to a 365 squat 400 deadlift, etc He says I've noticed that you never mention post workout stretches Are you not mentioning it because it is a given like the warm-up or do you really not find it necessary? Let's say at the same time three two one. We don't stretch. Yeah, not necessary Not necessary my oldest daughter started training with us again. Um, she had trained pretty hard LP last year and we all got in a tizzy and She stopped but she got back at it and and we went we went pretty darn light on her first session and um The next day she wasn't sore. Well the second day afterward she was pretty sore And uh, she came in the kitchen. She said, oh my god I think I made everything worse. So what are you talking about? She's like my legs are really sore. So I thought I would stretch And she's like it wrecked me. Yeah, and then uh, then we went out and squatted and after we got done She's like feel so much better you know He said also found it interesting this this sort of passive Voice that these people use there's something about it like it's not james's fault, but it just gets under my skin Sure also found it interesting sentence fragment also found it interesting that pull-ups and or rows are not included in the getting started series It's not interesting. We don't get people started with pull-ups and rows, but right that's kind of step two We we really thought about what we were doing Yeah, I mean it's really that like listen pull-ups and rows are pretty foundational But not so foundational that we start with them Right, it's that simple, right? So the getting started series does we don't do pull-ups and rows in the beginning We do the four main lifts. That's what we do in the beginning and eventually we'll add Pull-ups and rows at some point their chin-ups usually first Yeah, we're gonna have I want to have dudes chinning and rowing by a week six or so Yeah, maybe maybe usually a week one maybe later Uh, he says, um Finally on my last round through lp. I felt what I got okay strong stronger than I've ever been But when I tried an incline bitch, it was so weak. I found it concerning Yeah, it's novelty, man. It's novelty, right? So it's like, uh, you know, it's it's just I remember we did a Uh, the podcast last week, uh about kind of getting into strongman and playing with some strongman I remember I was a 700 pound deadlifter The first time I ever tried a strongman stone and I can remember that a 230 pound strongman stone almost killed me To try to get a 230 pound stone onto a platform and they're like, how's that even possible? It's the novelty of the lift, right? I can't incline anything anymore. It just tears my shoulders up. I can't I can't incline So, you know, it doesn't mean it's not strong. It means that you're not used to the movement Here's another here's a better example I've I've been at times in my life a pretty decent presser and bench presser And I used to work with when I was a strength coach At the high school I'd work with the throwing team. I always thought it'd be cool to throw Right throw shot throw discus. It's a cool sport and plus like The practices are easy and you get to live in the athlete dorms and eat the good food and stuff And so, you know, I had a way higher bench press as did my training partner Johnny gold at the time Then who was a coach then any of our any of our throwers and I'm talking we're talking about some big boys Some boys that were 260 270 280 and they might have had bench presses of 300 315 330 But we had bench presses of like 430 Johnny had won 485 Those guys could throw shot the high school kids way further than john and I could Yeah, is it because they were stronger than us? No, it's because There's a novelty to the movement. It takes a while to learn the technique And I think if you started to play around with with your incline, then you would find the same thing Now here's an interesting thing that I've noticed Everybody bench presses more than they overhead press. Yep Your incline is going to be somewhere between the two. Yep If you think about laying on the bench like you're going to bench press and your arms vertical That you got a right angle between your chest and your arm. Yep And then if you're standing and pressing It's a 180 degree angle between your arm and your chest, right the incline somewhere in between there Yep So will the weight be? Yeah, that's exactly right. It's fine. It's fine And if you practice it, it'll go up a little bit But it's never going to be heavier than your bench press and it's going to be something less than your than your press press Over higher than your press press lower than your bench press. Can we start calling it the press press? I like the press press. Let's do that I like it Michael says First of all, thank you guys for educating those of us interested in You're welcome It says I'm 511 247 pounds. My squat is 350 for a three by five press is 180 for a Three by five benching 250 400 for a set of five Okay, guys. Um, it says How does it sound like i'm doing Sounds like you're strong man Yeah, it sounds like you're real strong at 511 and 247 You don't say you don't see how old you are here But I'd want to have a conference call a little phone call consult with you And uh, maybe talk about your waistline. That's exactly what I was gonna say waist measurement Let's just see let's look at health metrics. Yeah, look at you look at your waistline Um, maybe we would we would talk about that but we would talk about next goals It might be bring the waist down enter your first meet You know something, you know, you're at a crossroads would be my guess, but it sounds like you're doing very well Yes Um proud of you doing good there. Michael. Let's see here. I got another one here Where the heck was it? These are all emails that were sent to the wrong email address Okay, we had to forward them from no, they were kind of in the hole. They weren't even forwarded Jared says curious of matt as part of online great books Also curious where matt and scott disagree as it relates to theological views worldviews philosophical Etc. This may take an entire podcast, but I'd like to hear it I'm not an online great books and I would really we disagree on everything. That's what I responded to him That's I would really like to be in online great books In fact, like there is a time coming when I really want to do the thing Um, I don't know if you guys have ever have heard about this But I'm I'm running a business that continues to grow so fast And I'm just trying to keep my head above water not drown And so uh and and the problem is is that I understand I've read a lot of books And I've also dabbled a little bit with the books even in going to scott and and brett's uh In person the thing that basically launched it on the great books tonight tonight you guys are meeting and uh It's it's not the same thing as reading as reading the effective executive It's not and then you know, I read some business books that are tough. It doesn't Sniff a candle to Aristotle or to Thomas Aquinas or or whatever. I mean, it's it's tough So, you know, I'm not in it yet, but I need to do it. I really want to do it You know Trent Trent joined us pretty trance in there with us. Yeah And in jordan too and we were talking the other day and he you know, he trains hard barbells You know and works his butt off and everything he said This is harder Yeah, I know That's that's the reason so the real answer is is I just pushed out and I haven't it it's it's it's hard And it's really frustrating. You know and when you get As you do it People can't see it You know, there's like if you get real strong like man, I hadn't seen you in a while.  It's tough You know on the like on the disagreements with theology and stuff like that Like there's a lot of stuff that we disagree on but I think the main point there is that The reason scott and I get along I think About a lot of that stuff is because we're we both think about it enough to have an opinion That has required some significant amounts of thought You know We I struggle with people who believe what mom and dad taught them to believe and have never questioned or read or thought Or use logic or wisdom and we are both very logical wise Not wise, but we use logic and reason reasons a better word to try to think about those things And so yeah while we don't exactly see eye to eye on all that stuff Um That's not really the goal right the goal is to figure out. No, the goal is to get you to see eye to eye with me That's the goal of that is the goal of online great books is to get every single person in ogb to see eye to eye Exactly with scott handbrake. No, no, no my goal in life is just to get you to agree with me Oh, it's to get me specifically I got you. Yeah, you know my instagram feeds nuts I know it's nuts and there's a lady don't agree with it. She's like, oh my gosh is this is you know Is the goal of online great books like the same as your you know, I'm like, no, it's not like I don't lead any of the seminars Right You know, it's just to get you people to read that's all right and then participate I don't lead any of the seminars. I just kind of I just operate the thing You know, I don't have any expected outcome there whatsoever except that you know that people people actually do it Uh, Thomas says a big fan of the show, especially the med series He says you often talk about where lifters should be at various stages based on the age weight height Etc. I wonder what the data versus antidotes would show any commentary would be necessary what would be appreciated So it's interesting. There's an interesting background to this.  Greg works for us. He's a a legit Statistician he's a he's an analyst for us And so we now have data by the way, we crossed over did you see me? I don't know if you saw this post that I made on slack the other day. We crossed over 1 million Prime exercises since we launched the online coaching So 1 million squats, deadlifts bench presses and presses Since we launched and we're at 370,000 workouts Uh, which is pretty crazy and we have data for every single every single one of those And so figuring out we can actually we can actually see what the data says now We put in any demographic we want right so you could be like I want a 35 year old male in the pacific northwest That's whatever 510 and weighs between 175 185 what are their numbers 32 workouts in boom We've got we can extrapolate that data Which is pretty cool. So we're going to start publishing a lot more of that because Nobody else has ever been able to get access to that data and we've got a we've got an amount of data now that we can pull So, uh, I'm I'm sure who's this? What's the what's the emailer's name here? I don't know. I deleted it Okay, sir, whatever your name was I'm sure you're right. There's probably some places.  Well, I mean, yeah, it will but the thing is, you know This is going to make it Almost every single person mad the data doesn't matter because it doesn't actually tell you anything Well, it tells the data matters to the company us It shouldn't matter to you personally In how you compare yourself to other people So if you're like, well, all the other guys that are 35 and are my height and weight are lifting this and I'm more or less That means I'm better or worse. No, it doesn't it actually comes back to the very first thing we talked about PRs man, that's what matters is go out keep hitting PRs. It doesn't matter what you like what You know, I'm at like we we have these people that that are that train with us that have all sorts of Like physical abnormalities. You have people who have like hip replacements and knee replacements and polio They're missing an arm and they got fused back or they they got spondy in their back or they've I mean all kinds of weird stuff, you know And and you just can't compare like those people have to go out and set prs too And so just go and set prs like the the point is that you get stronger and so This uh, this idea listen, I get being a 22 year old kid wanting to compete at strength sports and compare yourself against other 22 year old kids But at some point you're 35 or 40 or 45 or beyond And don't you realize the value of what we do is in actually just getting strong and improving your quality life and not To put the ribbon around your neck and wear the metal and say like hey, I'm better than everybody else or I'm worse or It just doesn't matter And You know a couple weeks ago somebody said uh went to the doctor and I got my labs back and they said this Yeah, and he gave us an interpretation. He didn't actually say what the numbers were in the labs Right, and I'm no doctor, but me and you both almost simultaneous. We said your labs. Don't say that. That's right. That's right and and in terms of stats This guy also asked a question about using stat statistics to drive programming Changes Right. No, um unless it's stats for for that person I love taking stats for that individual person And I can say you know back when I coached you I could look at you your training history and look at the stats of your training history How you train and that would help influence future programming Yeah But outside of that like where's the where's the help? Well Maybe we could get a bunch of statistical information about what a midweek deloads It does at the end of the LP sure and but But it doesn't matter because there still has to be an interpretive The interpretive work done and then there has to be There has to be new tests devised and the and and you never get at the truth You never get at the truth. This is this whole sort of reddit mindset sources right The experience is paramount. You know You know what a syllogism is out there listener you say all men are mortals Socrates is a man Therefore Socrates is immortal you can use deductive reasoning to prove If you have a solid, you know syllogism like that you can prove stuff to a dead certainty make it perfect We can prove That Socrates is immortal but In this induction thing, which is really what the scientific method is You can't actually prove anything Like I can't prove to you that if I drop a ball it's going to fall Now we've dropped a million balls and they always fell right, but I can't prove to you that the next one's not going to fall Now we're going to pretend like we know and we're going to proceed in that way But almost every single thing that I'm making air quotes here science has ever said was wrong And almost every single thing that science right now is telling us is wrong Like Ptolemy said the universe looked like this Copernicus said it looked like that Galileo said it looked different Newton said it acted in a different way Einstein said something else everything that everybody has said has been proven wrong You were supposed to take fish oil now. You're not you were supposed to eat a baby asper now You're not almost everything they've ever said was wrong and whatever they're telling you right now Is wrong too It's our best guess Right, there are gradations of wrongness sure Newton was less wrong than Ptolemy That's right But quit acting like it's the gospel and think quit acting like you're actually going to get a fucking answer because you're not No, I think you know, I do think data is interesting and I think there's stuff We like we're doing all kinds of fun stuff with the data, but To say that hey because the data shows this We are going to specifically or not just specifically, but we are certain that we can program for user this way That's we know that's not true Right, really what the data shows is what the middle of the bell curve is anyway, right? It's it, you know It shows trends it shows trend lines We can use it to say hey what we've seen is Is when a client misses four workouts in a row four workouts in a row They become big time red flag for like becoming m. I. A. or quitting right So that's a way we can use data then to reach like so at three workouts missed or two workouts missed We elevate the communication out to our clients to say like okay We have a we have a potential red flag coming Let's nip that in the bud and help them get back on the horse after after a couple workouts Miss instead of after four or whatever that number isn't so we can use it that way And you might be entirely wrong because the whole in business climate has changed like your data You had about four week whatever sure now knows right now those people don't have access to a gym Maybe they're actually just of course right so Yeah, I don't know. I just got a supplement to Logic and reason and experience we use experience logic and reason first When the data helps continue to like oh, we're like oh, this is interesting That's you know supports that it makes sense But the problem is that you get with this idea of like scientism is the people that say Without without the sources source question mark sources data question mark like where are those things and therefore Therefore it isn't real. It isn't true There's no like you know like you know If I drop a ball 10,000 times in a row and it goes straight down sources Like where are the sources that prove that the bottom? Yeah, the science scientism is out of control and and be clear like we're not anti science and we're not anti data We're actually like i'm pro both. I I like that stuff. It's really interesting stuff But it's not my religion. You remember like in the seventh or eighth grade and they're like, here's the scientific method You design a experiment or to get controls. I mean when I need to strap I want to add on the end of that We have to have an actual technological or engineering application of the thing Before we accept it as a theory. Sure. If it doesn't keep the bridge from falling down Or the airplane in the sky or whatever have a practical technological application or engineering application We don't hang our hat on it. It's it's it's still well even then I remember. What is the word? If we even if we do it's a theory, right? We accept it as a theory, which doesn't mean we've accepted it as absolute fact It's not our standard for theory that we've tested that appears to to be right But it's still just an appearance. It's not a you know, it's not a plant your flag in it Our standard for theory is too. It's too low. I think yeah, I want to add to the end of the scientific method Anthony says really enjoyed the show How much stock do you as coaches put into volume prs versus weight prs? I understand what he's saying. Yeah, I do too Now I think I think he's well, let's let's so first off There are Right now in the middle of covet 19 where I can't necessarily increase the intensity for a lot of my clients We're just keeping things like volume prs or tonnage prs because they only have a 35 pound kettlebell So I have to do it for as many, you know, or we keep frequency prs or and listen, that's not nearly as fun But I think there's times when it's valuable. I think the next most valuable piece of data To to bring it back to the last question after weight on the bar is tonnage Which is the combination of weight on the bar and volume And then you can go to things like volume, but the problem with volume We've talked about this before as its own like okay. I hit a new I hit a new 20 rep max on x Well, that doesn't carry over to strength like that's not it's not specific enough It's not that, you know, specific adaptation of imposed demands like how how what is the demand of a 20 rep max on anything muscle endurance You know How how much you can fight through lactate build up and you know the the bullshit of like horrible pain of glycolysis going real Like that's it's not strength And so and so that's the problem with just volume prs now what I do have volume prs is like on chins Which which is weight right so I'll have somebody like maybe they can do Maybe they can do a set of three And a and a double and a single so they hit they hit Six reps total the next workout. I'm going to say hit eight reps Don't care how many in as few sets as possible And we're going to go 10 reps or maybe just 11 or what or you know, whatever and go up And so that would be ways that I might use the volume to drive Increases something like a chin I care about tonnage Although I don't have to count it very much because I do the meds right And and I always want to follow one of our rules, which is you know stress goes up So it's always going to be heavier So I know as long as I'm making the proper med change the tonnage is always going up But I will track three by five by five one by five one by eight Um, I don't really care about anything bigger than than that Like a 10 rep pr.   I don't want to do it But I'm programming for him not much longer actually he's down to eights now, but he's been on tens for a while Man, I think that's a show. That's good. Let's wrap her up But but I want everybody to go do this go do this I've been asking you and now I'm telling you Go to go to Spotify Pick out one of our one of our shows that is your favorite And you can hit the share button and you can share it to your instagram story I think that's the best way for you to pass it to somebody else And and help and help us grow our listener base.  Yeah, and let's be clear Like we're we are currently in negotiations with Spotify. I don't know if you guys heard Joe Rogan just sold his entire library to Spotify yesterday for a hundred million dollars. And so Um, they're also negotiating with us. And so we we're hoping to get somewhere in the same ballpark Maybe a little less maybe a little more but like you're you're sharing of our episodes would help us get that hundred million dollar Number I ain't taking the ticket If if I take money for them, they own me and they're gonna say, oh, you can't say that That's what I do anyway.  They're the one that bought um that bought gimlet. I think for 400 million Yeah, that's so I mean think about that Gimlet was a like a Three-year-old podcast company that had 10 podcasts for selling your Spotify stock I don't even know if it's publicly traded, but if it is get out hundred million dollars I I like Spotify. Uh, I think as a service it works well, but that that's I don't see me. I don't see how that stuff makes any sense, man I don't worry about that as much as you know, good for Joe, by the way good for Joe Good for Joe Rogan 100 million dollars and mother fucker cashed out He had enough anyway By the way, Jared Was it Jared that asked this question? Here's a perfect example of one of the main things that Scott I would disagree on I'm like, dude, that guy has had that he's had the most influential podcast in the world. Does he have enough money? Yes, he does Spotify gave him a hundred million dollars. I say take it and run I'd keep podding my way, you know Spotify is one of the first people that started that de-platformed Alex Jones. There have been others. Are you sure that that was Spotify? Yeah Yeah, I yeah, I'm 98 percent sure. I'm not looking at now. I'm not here's the deal.  Well Joe's not dumb dude when it comes to business like I don't think Joe's got a IQ of 160 Joe got a hundred million dollars.  You're kidding me. There's no way They'll let him say anything that he wants on his platform.  But I just love that stuff. It's so fun. Interesting.  I may be wrong. You take the ticket That's what happens. Yep. I agree Yeah, I gosh, he's making so much money just out of his warehouse. He's like, yeah, I want an extra 100 Don't get it man. I get it. I get it joe. You get that squirrel by the nut All right, that's it. No the squirrel they got him the squirrel get you by the nut That's not how it works, right All right, let's wrap it up.  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Hello Columbia and welcome to This Week in the City. This week we start off on Monday, October 17th. There will be a Bull Street Commission advisory committee meeting starting at 2 p.m. For location and agenda items, please visit our website at columbiasc.gov. On Tuesday, October 18th, Columbia City Council will hold a work session starting at 2 p.m. The work session will be held at City Hall. It will also be a hybrid meeting, which means that you can actually attend in person or you may watch it via live stream on our website and our YouTube channel. At 4 p.m. also on Tuesday, October 18th, City Council will then move into a regular scheduled City Council meeting. Again, at 4 p.m., it will be held in council chambers located at City Hall on the third floor, 1737 Main Street. There will also be a zoning public hearing in conjunction with the City Council meeting for agenda items. Please visit our website at columbiasc.gov. On Thursday, October 20th, join members of the Food Policy Committee, along with the Office of Business Opportunities, for Make That Do. Make That Do is a workshop focused on small business and nonprofit collaboration in food access. You must preregister for this workshop. So please visit our website at columbiasc.gov. Again, the workshop is on Thursday, October 20th, from 8.30 a.m. until 10 a.m. at the Busby Street Community Center. Please register in advance. And if you have questions, please contact the Office of Business Opportunities at<PHONE_NUMBER>. Also on Thursday, October 20th, the Design Development Review Commission will hold a meeting at 4 p.m. at City Hall and Council Chambers. For agenda items, please visit our website at columbiasc.gov. You may attend this meeting in person or you may view it via live stream on our YouTube channel and our website. And as we close out the week, don't forget about Food Truck Friday. Food Truck Friday will be held from 11 a.m. until 3 p.m. at 2300 Bull Street, at the corner of Bull and Colonial. This is in the parking lot of the REI Co-op. Come out and enjoy delicious treats from some of our local Food Truck vendors. When that wraps up this week in the city, please don't forget that we're also open for registration right now for the Mayor's Walk Against Domestic Violence. This walk will be held on October 29th, which is a Saturday at 10 a.m. at Page Ellington Park. Registration is absolutely free, but we do ask that you register in advance. Please look for the Mayor's Walk Against Domestic Violence on Eventbrite or you may visit our website at ColumnSC.gov for more details. Thank you for watching, and we hope you continue to have a great week in the city.