Welcome to my talk on efficient key recovery attacks for all HFE signature variants. My name is Albrecht Petzold and I'm presenting here a joint work together with Chen Dong Tao and Qin Tai Ding. In our paper we work over the field of multivariate cryptography, which is one of the main candidates for post quantum cryptography. And the public key of a multivariate cryptosystem is just a system of multivariate cryptographic polynomials as shown here. And the security is based on the so-called MQ problem where we are supposed to find a vector x bar such that all of these polynomials evaluate to zero. The MQ problem was proven to be NP-hard and it is believed to be hard on average for both quantum and classical computers. Of course we have to ensure that the owner of the private key can invert the system efficiently and one of the ideas to do this is the so-called big field approach where we have an extension field fq to the n, an isomorphism phi between the vector space fq to the n and the extension field. We have an easily invertible univariate map f over the extension field, which is called the central map. And due to the special structure of this central map, the map f bar, which is defined as phi to the minus one zhark f zhark phi, is a great predict map over the vector space fq to the n. To hide the structure of the central map in the public key, we choose to invert the linear maps t and s over the vector space fq to the n and define the public key sp is t zhark f bar zhark f, which is a great predict map over the vector space fq to the n. It is supposed to look like a random system and therefore hard to invert. The private key consists of the three maps f and t and therefore allows to invert the public key. On this slide, you see a graphical illustration of the general workflow of multivariate big field signature schemes. So for signature generation, we are given a message m as a string of arbitrary lengths and the private key consisting of the three maps f and t. We first compute the hash value w of the message m, then we invert the first affine map t to get this x. We lift x to the extension field and invert the univariate central map to get y in fq to the n. Finally, we move the result down to the vector space again and invert the second affine map y to get the signature set in fq to the n. For signature verification, we are given again the message m as a string of arbitrary lengths, a signature set in fq to the n and the public key and we just have to check if p of set is equal to h of m. If this is fulfilled, then the signature is accepted and otherwise it is rejected. An important example for such a big field signature scheme is an hfev minus signature scheme which combines the idea of big field signature schemes with a minus modification and the miniature variation. The central map f of the scheme is a map from fq to the v times the extension field fq to the n to the extension field fq to the n and it has this special structure here. So the important thing here is that the degree of this polynomial f of x is bounded by big d and we have here a linear map beta i in the so-called miniature variables v1 to vv and here we have a quadratic map y in the miniature variable and due to the special structure of this map f and the for Pinias isomorphism, the map f bar which is defined as phi to the minus one third f third phi is a quadratic map over the vector space fq to the n. To hide the structure of the central map in the public key we choose two linear maps t as a map fq to the n to fq to the n minus a and f fq to the n plus v to fq to the n plus v of maximal rank. The public p is given as a the composed map t third f bar third f which is a quadratic map from fq to the n plus v to fq to the n minus a and the private key consists of the three maps ff and t and therefore allows to invert the public key. For the signage generation we are given a message as a string of arbitrary lengths as well as a private key ff and t. We compute the hash value of the message in fq to the n minus a then we compute a pre-match x of this vector w in fq to the n under the affine map t and lift the result to the extension field fq to the n. Then we choose random values for the miniature variables v1 to vv and so the parametrized map fv of y is equal to x over the extension field fq to the n via barely comes out within. Finally we move the result down to vector space again append the miniature variables v1 to vv and invert the second affine map f to get the signature set of the document in fq to the n plus v. For the signature verification we are given again a message m as a string of arbitrary lengths the signature set in fq to the n plus v and the public key p we compute first the hash value of the message w in fq to the n minus a and we evaluate the public key at the signature points to get this vector w prime in fq to the n minus a and we accept the signature set if and only if w prime is equal to w and in part against the hfev minus scheme there exist basically two attack scenarios the first one is a so-called direct attack which is a signature forgery attack and in a number of papers it was found out that the degree of regularity of this attack is bounded from above by the formula here where d is the base two logarithm of the degree bound of the hfe polynomial the second attack scenario is a so-called min rank attack which is a key recovery attack and mostly this attack considered the min q rank which can be seen as a degree of the public key as a credit form over the extension field and it was found out that the min q rank of the of the min rank attack is bounded by d plus a plus v and therefore if we solve the min rank problem using the so-called minus approach the complexity of the attack can be estimated by this formula here in our paper we propose a min rank style attack against the hfev minus scheme whose complexity is given by this formula here and we see that a doesn't appear in the complexity at all and v only appears in the first row this means that the complexity of our attack is completely independent of the number of minus equations a and is polynomial in the number of miniature variables v and therefore our attack is much faster than previous min rank attacks against hfe variants to describe our attack we need some preliminaries first we use the so-called matrix representation of the hfe central map namely we can write the hfe central map as a quadratic form using a matrix f star zero with which is given by this formula here and we can compute from this f star zero the Frobenius maps f u to the k similarly as quadratic forms using matrices f star k when the matrix f star k can be derived easily from the matrix f star zero next we need also a matrix representation of our isomorphism and we find that the matrix representing the isomorphism is given as a matrix of the van der one type a verb use theta as our generator of the extension field f q to the n and by doing so we find that the isomorphism applied to an element v of the extension field is given as a vector v to v q to the n minus one times m to the minus one as a vector of the vector space f q to the n and five to the minus one applied on a vector of the vector space f q to the n is the first component of v one to v n times m in our paper we have to cover the miniature variables and to do this we define a matrix m tilde which is a block matrix containing the matrix m of our isomorphism and the identity matrix of size v and by doing so we get the following equation mapping elements of the vector space to elements of the extension field furthermore if we let f and t be the matrices representing the linear paths of the affine maps f and t and we let f have you write f again as a quadratic form using a matrix f star zero then we find that the the following relation between the matrices representing the public polynomials and their matrices f star zero to f star n minus one and if we denote in this equation m tilde to the minus one times s to the minus one by u and m to the minus one times t by w then we find the this equation here and this equation plays a major role in the remainder of the talk and therefore i denote it by the fundamental equation so let t how to recover the first affine with s so let a i be the first row of the matrix f star i for i is zero to n minus one and then we can show the following lemma the rank of the matrix q is w transpose times matrix containing the vectors a as row vectors is at most d w here is a matrix from our fundamental equation and in particular we find that this row matrix from a zero to a n minus one is a block matrix containing two blocks a one and a two and a several blocks in the middle and from the lemma we directly follow a theorem if we denote by u the first row of the matrix q from our fundamental equation and b i is the vector u times the matrix p i representing the i's public polynomial then we define a matrix set whose row vectors are these vectors b i and the rank of set is at most d and first of all we get another lemma let a be an m times n matrix over the field fq and b be the matrix m to the minus one times a where m is a matrix representing our isomorphism then we have b ij is bi minus one j to the q for all ij and this means that the matrix b is completely determined by its first row so let's sum up how to recover f since we have u is m tilde to the minus one times s not to the minus one and m tilde is known it is enough to find u and we can recover as easily from u and due to the previous lemma we only have to find the first row of u to get the first n rows of the matrix u then we denote the first row of the matrix u by the vector u and since we only have to find one of the many equivalent keys we can assume that the first component of this vector is equal to one since the rank of the matrix set is smaller or equal to d we can find the unknown elements of the vector u by solving a min-rank problem over the base field and the remaining rows of u can be chosen at random such that the matrix u which is a n plus v times n plus v matrix is invertible so here we have the algorithm how to recover s so we are given the hfd parameters q and v d and a as well as the matrices representing the public polynomials and the matrix m tilde of our isomorphism and the output is one of the equivalent linear transformations s so we set b i if the vector consisting of a one and the element u one to n plus v times n plus v minus one times p i where p i is a matrix representing the i's public polynomial and u one to u n plus v minus one are unknowns then we construct a matrix set whose row vectors are these p i and solve a min-rank problem for this matrix set to find the unknowns u one to n plus v minus one then we define the matrix u as flows so the first n rows of this matrix u are given by the vector u or by the solutions of the min-rank problem and the remaining v rows are just chosen randomly in such a way that the whole matrix is invertible then we compute s tilde is m tilde to m tilde u to the minus one and return s prime as equivalent linear transformation and having found this equivalent linear transformation s the remainder of the attack is relatively easy we can show that as soon as the matrix u is known we can recover the matrix f star 0 by solving a determined linear system with n minus a minus one variables d plus a times n plus v additional linear equations in at most d plus v variables and two truths from v plus one univariate polynomial equations of degree at most q to the d and after we have found this matrix f star 0 we can easily compute all the other matrices f star i and having found these matrices f star i then we can recover the map t by solving n minus a linear equations in n variables so let's come to the complexity of our attack the most costly step of our attack is a solution of the min-rank problem we need to recover the matrix u for this there are basically two possibilities the first one is a minus modeling we find that the degree of regularity of the for algorithm is d plus one and this leads to the following complexity of our attack second possibility is to solve the min-rank problem by the support minus modeling and in in in comparison to rainbow we don't have a unique solution of the min-rank problem here which means that we can't solve the system by the medium one algorithm but we have to solve it by a four and our experiments seem to show that the degree of regularity of the a four algorithm is always three which leads to the following complexity of our attack however we don't have a theoretical confirmation that the degree of regularity is three and therefore the give the complexity of our attack using the minus modeling this table here shows how we can apply our attack against the g e m s m s system which is a third round candidate in the list standardization process of post quantum signature schemes and we see here that the proposed parameters for this scheme don't meet the mystery security requirements especially for higher levels of security so as I said the proposed parameters for g e m m s don't reach the required security levels first of all we find that speeding up the signature generation process of the scheme by decreasing d while increasing a and b is not possible which means that modifications as done in blue games and red games are not possible and first of all we find that for high levels of security we need very high levels of the h of e degree bound for example for the next security level three we need small d is greater or equal to 20 or big d is greater or equal to 2 to the 19 plus 1 is 524 000 and this leads to a drastically slow down of the signature generation process therefore we come to the conclusion that the techniques used in the games scheme don't suffice to create an h of e a signature scheme which is both efficient and reaches high levels of security to conclude in our paper we proposed a new mindoring style attack against the h of e signature variants and the complexity of our attack is exponential in d but polynomial in v the number of integer variables and independent of the number of spinous equation a some consequences so we see that we can't speed up the scheme by increasing by decreasing d while increasing a and b as it is done in blue games and red games and for high levels of security we need a very large value of small d which brings down the efficiency of this scheme and therefore there arises a question if we can build an h of e based signature scheme which is both efficient and offers a high level of security thank you for your attention


les Leclerc, ART Grand Prix. Purple, green, Logan Sargent. I do. Yuki Tsunoda, Speed Demons. And A. Mini-Nimans of Voltaire Botos to 299. Nicholas Latifi refractor. And McLaren. Ray wave, Lando Norse. And Lewis Hamilton and George Russell. That is a ray wave, Roy Nassani. And Bass. That'll do it for your break there, Lynn. Thanks again for your support, buddy. Get them right out to you, my friend. All right, I got Jeff T. coming up next. Lock here, everybody. All right, good luck here, Jeff. Not everybody. Sam here with latent sports cards, ripping one box of... Let me switch this to personals. Hold on, Jeff. One box of 2023 top scrum baseball hobby for Jeff T. So good luck here, Jeff. Let's see it, buddy. Looks like 10 stops before it even gets to California. Good Lord, it's Mack. I know. Joe Ryan, Francisco Lindor. Especially when I know who's calling. Right. Well, I'll take a world guess with him here. Garrett Mitchell, Jordan Walker, rookie. Vladimir Guerrero, junior Javier Asad and... Bass. Springer, Kwan Porkelson. Kyle Stowers, Oswaldo Cabrera. Eggy Rosario, refractor rookie. Padres, John Carlos Stam. Prism is... Who was that? Marcus Stroman. Gerardin Carnassio. Nolan Gorman, rookie. Jeremy Pena. He is. He's really good. Sean Murphy. Vinnie Pascantino, rookie. Logan O'Hoppey. And a Byron Buxton bass. Kodaisenga. Refractor of Corey Seager. Bass and bass. Trout, Christian Yeltsch. Michael Grove. Prism, Alec Pierce. Wander and Carlos Perez. Freddie Freeman, refractor. Soto and Tyler Freeman. Josh Young. That is Christopher Morell. We got Tyler Freeman, refractor. Rookie ordered $4.99 for the Gaudians. That's when they're Jeff. Congrats, buddy. Castellanos and Oscar Gonzalez. Steer, Dermot's Garcia. Prism, Riley Greene and Bass. Riley Greene. Jayrod and Miguel Cabrera. David Br, refractor. Rookie. And Prism, Cedric Mullins. Negative, Byron Buxton. Four of the twins. Mookie Betts and Gabriel Moreno. Refractor of Kyle Tucker. Josh Young, rookie. Magenta Minidiamonds. Robbie Ray to $3.50. Nice one there for the Mariners. I don't believe so yet. Smack now. Max Meyer, Fujinami. Refractor of Randy Rosarena. Vargas, Kate Cavalli. Bubba Thompson, refractor, rookie. Alex Kahl and Catel Marte. That'll do it for your break there. Jeff, thanks again for the support, buddy. Get him right out to you, my man. All right, Jeffrey H. Most likely to be the last one. Look here, Jeffrey. Here we go, buddy. Uh, probably for the rest of this, I would say smack this personal. I think that's probably gonna do it after this one. Good luck here, Jeffrey. Sam here with Leighton Sports Guards. We are doing a four box baseball personal for Jeffrey H. We got two 23 Bowman Sapphire edition boxes and two 23 Topps Chrome hobbies. So good luck here, Jeffrey. See what we got, buddy. What do you want me to start with? Does it matter to you? No, no. We'll go with Topps Chrome hobby first. No. I'm not a big Vientos Ohapi. Like, I get it, obviously. I get the... It's just not really up my alley. No, same. Perez Juan Soto. I'll go home and watch sports, sir. Alex Bregman. Luis Castillo. There you go. Bo Nailor. Ah, there you go. Gabriel Moreno. Image variation. Nice one, Jeffrey. On the refractor. Very cool for the D-becks. Gonzalez J-rock. Wow, refractor. Bryant refractor. Yvonne Herrera. That's Will Sincontreras' prism. J.J. Bloday. D.L. Hall refractor. Rookie. Thomas and Arise. Prism. Jose Miranda. Wet Josh Young Rookie. Purple Mini Diamonds. Gabriel Moreno's. Gabriel Moreno box. Nice one there. Congrats on that, Jeffrey. The 299. Solid hit, for sure. And that's pre-Varshow trade. He's one of those guys that base is one team and autos are another. Mullins. Fujinami. Wonder why they do that? For certain guys. Base is like him. He got traded. So his autos are Diamondbacks. But his base is BlueJays. I don't know why. Adley Rushman Future Stars. See like there's... That's his base. It's the Diamondbacks. And then his autos, like we just pulled with the BlueJay. I don't know. It's weird. The same thing with Bloday. J.J. Bloday. All of his base are A's and he has an auto that's Marlins. Adley Rushman. Maybe they've sent the autos before. I don't know. I don't know. Nick Castellanos' Prism. Steven Kwan. Hit the Kwan. Hit the Kwan. Here it goes. Logan O'Hoppy Prism. Jordan Walker Rookie. Javier Asada. Alvarez. Nolan Gorman. Fordo. Hoskins. Stores. Berkelson. Michael Toglia. Jeremy Pena. Andrew Ratsmusen. Javi Baez. $3.99. Oswaldo Cabrera. Danesby Swanson. Swanson. Michael Harris Rookie. Thermus Garcia Refractor Rookie. Stanton and Matt Olson. Oswald Paraza Refractor and Wander. Ah, Soka. JP Crawford. Brian Bayo Prism. So they're all good, my bad. That one's asleep. These are not. John Gray Refractor. Vientos. Logan O'Hoppy Rookie. Negative. Spencer Steer. Buxton Castellanos. Trisha Casas. Oswaldo Cabrera. Danesby Swanson. Adrey Xander Bogarts. Jeremy Pena. Drew Ratsmusen. Michael Massey Refractor Rookie. Moreno and Vargas. Gallon. Stephen Kwan. Prism Austin Hayes. Garrett Mitchell. Nolan Gorman Rookie. Josh Young. D.L. Hall. Jordan Walker. Javier Asad. Gold Wave. Cody Thomas. Rookie Otto, $30.50. There you go, Jeffrey. Nice one there. Some gold. Gold action. $30.50. Forty A's. Kyle Stowers Rookie. Michael Harris Rookie. Tyler O'Neill and Rookie Betts. Prism Dermis Garcia. Verlander. Wander Franca. Fractor. Vaughn Grissom. Asturi Rees Refractor. Juan Soto. Logan O'Hoppy Rookie. Abasil Garcia. Shintaro Fujinami. Francisco Alvarez. Tyler Freeman, $350. Pink Mini Diamonds. Freeman and Castillo. Morrell. Josh Young. Anthony Rizzo Refractor. Bass and Bass. There's Masatake Yoshida Refractor Rookie. Max Meyer. Alex Kahl. Adley Rochman Rookie. Razum. Waldechuck. Marte. And Joe Ryan. Not a bad two boxes there, Jeffrey. Let's start with some 23 Bowman Sapphire now. 23 Bowman Baseball Sapphire. That is a Miguel Blaze. $29 of $55. For the Red Sox. Juan Chacon first. Lázaro Montez. Nice. Michael Arroyo. Nice one there. First auto. Bangles. Dylan O'Ref. Charles Green. Lionel James. 33 of $60. For the Red Sox. Tony Blanco. Blafire. Cole Young. Cleo Watson. Roman Anthony first. Yeah, most likely I'd say smack. This will be at least potential. Friendly Encarnacion. $250. Orange. Going to the Red Sox. Or for the Red Sox. Going to Jeffrey. Just a bot. Sean. Max Wagner. What's up? Full tire. Look here, Jeffrey. Last box of your break. 23 of them in Sapphire. Drew Jones. Got a purple. Juan Alonso. 13 of $25. Nice one there for the Dodgers. Juan Alonso. Juan Alonzo. Nelson Rada. Ever going in. There he goes. Jacob Berry. Martin Gonzalez. Anel Shanao. $255. For the Guardians. Averson Artega. Diarte, Frémy de Lyon. Jay Savina. Abdi Estela Cruz. Kevin Aro first. Green Auto. Jackson Holiday. 36 of $50. There he go, Jeffrey. Congrats on that one, buddy. Big time. Number one prospect in the MLB. Potential call-up by the end of the year. Absolutely mashing. And where is he? Double or triple? Nice one there. Base. Last pocca. Orange. Justin Henry Molloy. $950 for the Braves. And Trace Winnie. That'll do it for your break there. Jeffrey, thanks again for the sport, buddy. We'll get him right out to you. Can I do one more real quick? It's just two select basketballs. Is that all right? All right, one sec, guys. Lugo Mejnado. Bang! Let's go, baby. Oh, that's awesome, bro. Game used. Mobley. One of one. Match card, one of one. Austin Riley. Three-color patch with a stamp on it. Big hit Braves. And, oh man, that is sick. This goes to Keith. We have Lonzo Ball. And that is a rated rookie black and gold. Come on. It is Jaden Ivy. Holy cow. This is going crazy. Woo! John G. with the pistons. Jaden Ivy on the rated rookie black, gold to eight. Donny got to get the mags going today. Seven out of eight. Boom. Downtown. It's Tom. Eric E. with the bucks. Brady from left field. Nice one there. Downtown Tom Brady. Ooh. Mike Trowell. 23 of 25. Orange Technicolor. All right, last one. Real last one of the night. Tom C. two select basketball hobbies. You can fett it. Yes, that particular sapphire is guaranteed an auto. All right, good luck here, Tom. Let's do it, buddy. It's going on, everyone. Sam here with latent sports cards, ripping two boxes of 2022-23 Panini select basketball hobby for Tom C. So good luck here, Tom. Let's do it, buddy. Again, last person all night right here. Again, Kyle will be live tomorrow on channel two, ripping personals all night. So if you have something in queue that did not go tonight, it will go tomorrow. Dyson Daniels. Clay Thompson, courtside. Sohan Future. Andrew Wiggins. And Jason Tatum. And Davis Palo Tri-Color. The Magic. J. Dubb. Rookie. Sticky in the air. Jeez, man. Whoa. Anthony Davis. 22 of 49. Jared Jackson, Jr. I don't know why that was that thick. Nice one there. Congrats on that, Tom. The Gris. Cade. And Scotty Barnes. That is a Tim Hardaway, senior in-flight signatures to 49 for the Warriors. Nice one there. Colin Sexton. Scope. Bradley Beal. Silver Michael Porter, Jr. Kevin Durant. Keegan Murray, Rookie. Osemane Zhang to 175. Thunder, sorry. Trey Young. Purple. Christian Wood to 99. For the Mavs. Christian Wood base. Jaylen Green. Jaden Hardy to 99. Rookie Jersey Otto. Nice one there. Congrats, Tom. Jayden Hardy, Action. Terry Easton, Silver, Rookie. And Butler base. Pelden Johnson, Red. Two at 199. Spurs. Pace. Trevor Keels. Blue. Scope. Johnny Davis. Two at 249. Jabari Smith, Rookie. Silva, Benedict Matherin. The Pacers. And Pascal Siakam. I'll spare you a bullish test. Please. Please. Please. At least I can do it. No, it's not good. At least I can do it. Empty. Tri-Color is Anthony Simons. For the Thunder, Mulmury, Quartzside. For the Blazers, this is Anthony Simons. Jaylen Durant. Chris Ops, Borzingis for the Wizards. Palo, Quartzside, Rookie. Nice. Blue, Steph Curry to 299. Warriors, Clay Thompson. Benedict Matherin. Chet Holmgren, Tri-Color. Palo, Rookie. Jaren Jackson, Jr. Nice one there. Another Triple J for the Grids. Jersey Card, Game Use. Andrew Nemhard, Silver. Jason Tatum. Jaylen Williams. Silver, Josh Giddy. And then Andrew Nemhard, Rookie. Palo, Rookie. Jaylen Brunson. Got nice. 17 of 99. Steve Kerr. Red Color Match Auto for the Bulls. Got Shy Town. Congrats, Tom. For the Bulls. Donovan Mitchell, Tri-Color. And base. Blue, Die-Cut. Kennedy Chandler, Rookie. For the Grids to 249. Chris Ball. Nathan Bain. Got a Bronze. Jaylen Suggs. X-Fractor, 249. Or Checkerboard, I believe they call that. And Neeming. Carl Anthony Town. Jeremy Sohan, 21 of 49. Rookie Jersey Auto. Two solid Rookie Jersey Autos for you, Tom. Congrats, buddy. Nice one there. Sohan Action. Silver, Yokech. And Cade. Silver, Branum, Future. Silver, Yovitch. Terry Eason. Last pack, Tom. Good luck, buddy. Good luck here, my friend. Let's see what we got. Shade on Sharp Rookie. White, Jake L'Arabia. 2, 149 for the Grids. Jersey Match. And Ty Ty Washington. I'm doing for your break there, Tom. Thanks again for the support, as always, my friend. Get him right out to you, buddy. All right, so that's the last person of the night. That is going to do it. Let me upload this, and then I will say my farewells. Have a good one there, smack. See you, smack. Everybody. Tim, you have a good one as well, man. Take it easy. Everybody else, it's out there. Take it easy. Yeah, everybody else, for sure. Here is your link to the break schedule tomorrow. Release day for Tops Preston Baseball and Luminance Football. Thank you all again for hanging out tonight. Thank you again for filling everything up. That was incredible. Really do appreciate it. Sean and I will see you tomorrow night.


What's the genetic history of England? A 2006 Oxford study found that most people in England are descendants of ancient Spanish tribes who sailed from the Bay of Biska around six to seven thousand years ago and settled in Ancient England. In England, according to the study, around 64 per cent of people are descended from these tribes, outnumbering the number of Anglesacks and descendants by three to one. In Scotland, around 73% of people are descended from these tribes, with Wales being the highest at 83%. Professor Brian Sykes, the late professor of human genetics at Oxford University, said that about 6,000 years ago, Iberians developed ocean-going boats that enabled them to push up the channel. Before they arrived, there were some human inhabitants of Britain, but only a few thousand in number. These people were largely subsumed into a larger Celtic tribe. The majority of people in the British Isles are actually descended from the Spanish. Thus, according to the study, the majority of people in England are descendants of these ancient Iberian tribes. They can be called these people Celts. Well, on first thought, the short answer is no, as a Celt is defined as someone who speaks a Celtic language. And Celtic languages didn't develop for thousands of years after this point. However, on second thought, these ancient settlers of Britain could have potentially began speaking the proto-Celtic language relatively early on after they settled. And could be considered a proto-Celtic people. Barry Conlith, the Emirates Professor of European Archaeology at the University of Oxford, has argued that the proto-Celtic language could have arisen in the British Isles as a lingua franca or trading language to link the traders of the Atlantic zone. And it could have emerged thousands of years before we initially thought between 5500 and 2800 BC. Even if this isn't true, we know that the Britons of ancient England spoke the common Celtic brithonic language. Prior to the Roman invasion around 2000 years ago, what do other studies say on the genetic history of England, however? The people of the British Isles study found at large parts of eastern, central and southern England, formed a single genetic group with between 10 and 40% Anglo-Saxon ancestry. However, these people also retained DNA from earlier settlers of Britain. This study also found that the Vikings, the Romans and the Normans had little overall impact on the genetics of England. Another study published in Nature estimated that, on average, the contemporary East English population derives 38% of his ancestry from Anglo-Saxon migrations. The genetic data from the people of the British Isles study also suggests a large movement of people from Northern France into England and Scotland between 6000 and 3000 years ago. At about the same time, the agriculture began to be widespread. Another recent study published in Nature also found that there was a notable migration and incorporation of early European farmers of probable ancient French origin into ancient England and Wales between 1000 and 875 BC and in the years before. Despite the various groups that have invaded and migrated into England over the centuries and millennia, the genetics of its people still remain similar to some of the earliest settlers of Britain following the last Ice Age. Thanks for watching. If you would like to support this work through Patreon, buymeacoffee.com or make a donation through PayPal, please do so via the links in the description below. Please remember to subscribe and hit the bell and I'll speak to you soon.


Welcome back everyone to the live state coverage here of SuperCloud 4 in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante. I've got a great day going on, great content, two days tomorrow all day streaming as well. We're unpacking generative AI and all the hot topics, technologies, business models, and of course startups in this panel. We've got two amazing companies, startups, young, hot companies. Here we go, here we go. Here we got Amit Yelkovin, CEO of Cubia, which is Cube, thank you very much. You'll get a shift in CPO of wand.ai. Gentlemen, I want to say thank you for coming in today and thanks for coming and contributing to our program. Thanks for having us. And I want to say hearts out to your fellow countrymen and women. I know it's a tough situation. We're here to talk startups, but we hope things go well. Appreciate it and we appreciate your support. I know you've been good friends of Israel and the US in general has been very supportive. On behalf of Israel, we appreciate it. Well, we're fans. We know a lot of startup activities. It's just a little bit disruption. We hope we get back to normal soon. Like 9-Eleven will never be the same, but business still goes on. You guys got awesome gen AI activity going on at Cubia. We've talked before, we had a great article on SiliconANGLE and enterprise AI is hot. You think like enterprise slow to consumer, but there's a lot of data in there. David, I've been covering. You guys take a minute to talk about your companies. Let's start with Juan first. Yeah, I'd be happy to start. Thank you for having us. One AI, what we do as an enterprise assistant, basically a business assistant, what we're trying to do is taking generative AI and enable it for enterprise companies. Basically, strike down any barrier for entry, for generative technologies, generative AI technologies for those kind of companies. Specifically speaking, world-based security and the ability to access all the organizational data, but only the data that is relevant for you. Second can be real-time access to data. The current technologies doesn't allow you to operate with the scale that requires to operate in those enterprise environments. We developed a unique search capabilities that allow you to interact with large scale of data. And we also added a personalization framework on top of our assistant that allows it to adapt, basically to the interaction you're having with it and allow you to tell it once what you want to do and it will understand your day-to-day actions and also execute them.  We'll get into some of the hard problems that are now being solved. And the price has always been hard with search and data, all the silos. But when did you guys start?  What's the status? Where are you guys in terms of your progression? The company started a bit over a year ago. We had a few pivots around the way. Finally integrated predictive AI, and generative AI together into one product. We're almost over 20 employees, most of them in the Bay Area, same Europe and in Israel. And we are currently expanding and having a lot of conversation with big enterprise companies, actually getting the product to the end line, trying to sell to the business user. I mean, I talked about your company, I know we have it on theCUBE before and also SiliconANGLE, but for refresh, you're a platform engineer, you can be a KubeCon, we'll be there as well. You got an interesting platform engineering angle at Jenner Bay Eye. Absolutely, I'll do a little quick recap for those who haven't seen my previous interactions on theCUBE. We're looking to solve a very specific exchange between the developers and the platform engineers slash DevOps. The concept is when it comes to self-service for organizations, how to unlock the golden path, how to essentially serve yourself to infrastructure, automations, knowledge and so forth. That's not always intuitive, that's not always as as straightforward as it may appear. Imagine that even in 2023 with large language models, there's still a lot of adoption barriers and we're seeing that plateau. Most organizations who pick up internal developer platform or try to develop themselves usually have a 10% adoption barrier. That's typically what we're seeing even with backstage and technologies out of nature and our thesis all along has been how do you go and unlock that? How do you go essentially democratize the usage of DevOps or technical functions in organization in a way that's intuitive for folks? And the common denominator in all of this is natural language, right? Large language models unlock this, but how do you rein in large language models in a way that's predictable outcome? Our users are very unforgiving. Especially for mistakes.  So this is kind of where we come in with our own co-pilot approach where every user has their own co-pilot, not a code completion co-pilot and an operation completion co-pilot and we can talk about that. I love where you guys are right now and I want to just real quickly get a status. You guys had raised some pre-seed funding? Yes. Okay and your funding level was series? We also had some pre-seed funding, safe funding. Same. Yeah, so this is, we had a panel on earlier on the founders with more of the, Sure. Senior guys. That's who I was telling you. The old guy founders and now we get the kids. But this is why I like what you guys, you both mentioned the word pivot. You mentioned it to me privately, said pivot. You guys started your companies right at the right time when this wave comes. Talk about the agility of the startup teams. From an opportunity recognition perspective, obviously you start a company because you have a vision. You see some opportunity, you want to capture it. And then you've got market conditions. You're in the arena, right? You've got to make moves. And then the AI wave comes in and you see an opportunity to take your, I mean your vision was Siri from DevOps, right? And then wait a minute, it's not Siri, it's AI. Right, tailwind for you. And enterprise AI complexity, the old enterprise success model was solve complexity with more complexity, right? So that's not what AI is doing. So talk about your pivots, how you saw it, the mindset. Yeah, I can address that. We started with predictive AI, creating predictive models for analytics for data scientists. It's allow enterprises to basically connect whatever they want to create a data science pipeline to get analytical results. What I just said sound very high level, but when you interact it with the human intuition generative AI allows you, you can get a human intuition on solving data science task and action. You can actually just ask us what is my turn and I will get the answer and not try and let someone build it for you. So that's the pivots we did. We saw the opportunity of automating everything we wanted the human to do because the human part of what we tried to do is not the complex part. The IP is in solving the analytical part and the human interaction is just another tool to allow it for the enterprise. So take that example of churn. There are many ways actually to calculate churn. You can do custom, you can do NRR, et cetera. So how do you ensure that it's consistent? Just as an example, I mean, I'm sure we could use many examples, but churn is a good one. Does the customer sort of train that or do you sort of have pre-trained models? The real answer is what Amit said is generative. I also opened the world to having mistakes. Okay, it means that I will give you a churn based on your data and the way I think you can solve churn with the data you provided me with. But if you're missing data, you'll get maybe the wrong answer. Maybe you get a slightly wrong prediction, but we're working really hard to not get a hallucination. That's the difference between getting the wrong prediction that even data scientists can get and having the wrong elucidated prediction.  For example, to us, we're like, why am I getting this answer from a document from three years ago? Listen, I'm not writing your docs. I'm giving you the retrieval capabilities for it. Talk about your pivot too. There's a moment in time where everyone has that moment where it's like, okay, the bit has been flipped.  Do you turn around to your teams say, look, we go here, we're going to go faster and the trend is your friend, as Dave always says. In this case, it's legit next level AI is here. What was the moment where you saw the AI, what made you cross over? So from you correctly pointed out, we discussed the concept of Siri for DevOps and people. Siri for DevOps, what is that? Think Siri just for DevOps, like what does that mean? Conversational AI. Provision that Kubernetes cluster. Yeah, right. And then- And this was before chat GPT. Correct, about 45 days before and 12 hours. You remember the exact moment, okay. And then chat GPT came to a world. And then the biggest barrier of entry for us, the market education, we didn't have to concentrate about that anymore. A million people in 48 hours all of a sudden we're on the platform enjoying conversational AI with the machine. Now, where do you take this? We already had all the scars of training our own models, of effectively creating rule-based systems, merging them with LLMs. How do you go and now reign in on the business potential of this? And we saw the agent-based framework as the way to do it. And this is essentially kind of the concepts here.  Workflow-based systems are one directional. So how do you go and create the near-specific thing to a human interaction with the agent framework? Obviously, you can start a chain of reason, trivial augmentation. You can go through all the different practices here. Then a day, it's a human interaction. Human-like interaction. And your firm, your employees, same as you'll give as you're in Israel, you're in... Ironically, we were almost twins from different industries founded around the same time, around the same funding, around the same people. And we actually grew up not too far from each other without realizing it. So... I'm glad to have you all here on theCUBE. And so you did your safe. Did you do your safe in Israel, or did you do it in the States? Both, for most, but yeah. Okay, both. So could you talk a little bit about how you did that and what your thinking was? The first Israeli entrepreneur I met was the very famous Moshe. You might have heard of Moshe and I. And so then I got interested in Israeli companies and I'm like, wow, these guys are pretty smart. They own Cyberspace. But you've seen both models. And increasingly, you want sort of a global presence and you certainly want a presence in the Bay Area if you get it at Silicon Valley. So how did you go about that? Maybe you could tell your story there. About how we got to the... Yeah, your decision and how you thought about the funding and how you recruited different investors from different parts of the world. Yeah, I think it also relates to the previous question. I think generative AI and AI research in general are focused in the Bay Area. There's like between Stanford and Berkeley, there's a lot of smart people that are researching AI specifically. And I think that was what caused us to search people around here from the talent perspective and with that, the investor's perspective. The Israeli front came from personal connections and history we had at previous companies before. I came from the Israeli military. So my connections are deeply inherited in Israel but also in the Bay Area because that's where the high tech communities goes to. Like there's a rich community here. And your funding was the first round or the seed round, safe round, before ChatGPT or... Yes, yes. It was, okay. So wow, that's your right. Well, that's perfect. Well, when was your time that you had the pivot? Because there's a go-to-market change you mentioned because ChatGPT educates the world and what you're trying to educate people on. And then is there a product change? So imagine there's now product tailwind as well. Yeah, so I think on our end, it's changed us from selling that... The change came from the client because of ChatGPT. The change was, for us, it was instead of having another product for data sentence, I can actually sell to business persons. I can sell to the sale persons. I can sell to the customer support. I can actually create value to the end user which was the missing part of being another tool in the chain of tools that people are using. And the middle person, the data scientist, the go-between, between the ultimate end user. So the democratization or consumerization of AI that's happening is really what's happening here, isn't it? So you had increased TAM and you had education overnight for your consumers. And a lot of noise. Yeah, but so that's why I wanted to ask you, from a fundraising standpoint, in the one hand you say, wow, now these guys are AI, there's a great tailwind. It must be really easy to get funding, but there's now it's so noisy, so crowded, so much competition for attention. So what have you experienced? So how do you differentiate what you do from somebody with a thin layer, API call, simple API call to chat GPT? That devils in the details. You mean AI wrapper app? I'll call it AI. I'll call it AI. Vaporware, whatever you want to call it. Well, I mean AI wrapper, it's like a website. I mean, it's not bad if it's a use case, but it's not a scalable, durable company. Not a feature. There's simple Lipton tests you can put to just have a conversation with it. See how fast it breaks. See how fast the interaction goes into areas you probably wouldn't expect to. Scale. Scale is one aspect that's more in the infrastructure side. But quality. Quality, interaction, context, remaining context, having a state machine that knows how to keep the context and orchestrate the business logic and APIs and the workflow less workflows in this. That's different. There are different levels to this. I don't want without having to go into the details. A lot of people are now discovering all of the challenges of trying to tame and... How do you feel about your current solution, VisaVee, as you look at what you guys have built VisaVee, some of the vapor, well, I'll say vaporware, but it's like demos. Because right now there's, people are trying to squint through the demo problem. Yes.  How do investors know that you guys have a better deal than someone else or a customer? I tell you what we did. We just released it as a self-service. We said, you want to try it out? Try it out. 700 people signed up in a month. And we understood that there's the positive feedback here. Yes. We're building. We're always building, right? It's always going to improve every day. You're on the platform as you said, which is a little bit of bottoms up kind of strategy. You've got the enterprise, so you've got customers telling you what they want, right? We actually got both of them. We have a big community on LinkedIn. We have a few of the largest influencers and groups on LinkedIn, on generative AI, that we're working with. So we also have a B2C product that is used to show people, like Amit said, the value of using our technology. And then they can imagine how it will be with organizational data. They can connect their own data. So synthetic data? No, they can use it as a personal assistant and then see the value and then say, OK, I will use it in my organization. OK, I got it. So a freemium model. And the data sources for the enterprise customers that you're talking about come from the enterprise customers, yes? Is it all happening in the cloud? Are you getting customers to say, we want to do this on-prem because we're afraid of IP leakage or privacy? It's more of the latter.  They've been told to invest in generative AI. It's an advanced technology. But they are, as you said, still like a... And they're set up to underwrite it. That's un-funded. It's unfunded so they have to steal from other areas, right? Or not necessarily? No, actually it is funded. There's a lot of companies who just bought racks on racks of GPUs to use for something. And they don't have any application to actually operate it. So we do provide... We need to ask. Help out. Process-wise, right? Organizations still don't know how to underwrite the concept of GenAI. They'll come and say, we want to go and use GenAI tool. And then their security team will block it out at the go. And then we're like, are you using GitHub Copilot? Yes, we are. Well, what gives? OK, I'm a VC. I got a big bag of money. I want to write a check. I want to do your series A round. I got a couple of questions for you. Sure. What is your vision? What do you guys vision? What's your North Star? What's the big idea? What's the big market you're going after? What's the big vision? For our perspective, we feel that we're really in the crossing point of where data, operations, and language start intersecting. And it's only a matter of time until we'll have enough data and enough essentially feedback loops with our customers to create the first self-driving DevOps, essentially digital DevOps, digital employees. And that's one flag. We can go and plant that and say that goes into other areas than the technical operations. But it's a proof point. And we're seeing where this is going to go. Your vision for your company? Our vision is similar on the business side. People nowadays consume it back by researchers. It consumes almost three hours a day just looking for information, tagging between different apps. Just look how many apps you're going through on your phone or on your laptop without actually doing any productive action. We think that the generative can really disrupt, for your question earlier, disrupt the way to productive actions on data. The huge amount of data people collected, the big data era, and a lot of data out there can now be consumed.  And personalization must be really important, obviously. Yeah. A big part of it is personalization. Really taking your data and connect it to who you are, who you are in the organization, what is your contribution to the organization, or how do you like to interact with it? Nowadays, when you interact with a bot, we call it passive personalization. You tell it what to do, and eventually it does whatever it does. We develop what we call active personalization. We can actually learn what you're trying to do. And next time you're talking to me, or even if you're not talking to me, I'm with through your emails myself, and I understand what you're looking for. I'm your real assistant, like your real EA trying to give you insights of what you do. I will say, like I said before, I will be your real EA. I can be good in some stuff, but I can give you not what you expected on different stuff, but I will give you the right. Hey, we got a term sheet ready to go. Jump full, who's going to get the term sheet? Well, the next question is, who's got traction? What's the traction? What's adoption like? What's the customer, yeah. Our new co-pilots have really taken off. We've seen that people are enjoying that natural interaction. Native querying, native actions without needing to set up anything in advance, any workflows, any gated. Only until that point, then they want to go to that next level, which is how do I go and reign it in with governance, with policies, and so forth. You have good traction. Any momentum numbers, can you share? What's some of the? Probably let that to the imagination of the tier one VCs. I'll ask it. But you have people using the product? Yes, yes. We have hundreds of people in the system. Yeah, as we said, we are a freemium model. We already have over 10,000 users in our platform. A few hundreds of them are already pain. We started monetization only a few months ago. And we see a lot of traction. And it's a very dynamic world. That's, I think, the biggest pain point. Like Amit said, people come in, and they don't know what to expect. And you need to keep them in. Our internal metric for ourselves is how long until someone is living with the platform. I told everyone in the company, if you can't stay in the chat and have a productive chat for 15, 30 minutes, then we failed. We need to figure out how do we get there. So that's your North Star metric. How long they stay engaged? And your productivity. And you're seeing that type of, well, I'm sure it's a bell curve, right, but you're seeing that type of adoption. Yeah, we see. And those are actually super users, if you like. Give us a lot of insights, because we see actually how they interact. We talk with them. We create, we do client interviews to see what they do and how they interact with the platform and what they actually want to solve with that. Because the use cases are infinite. Because it's a human interaction. In any front, in the DevOps front or in the business front, you can do whatever you like. People sometimes guide us, guide us what you want to do. It will do whatever you tell it to do. The limitation is only your imagination and what you're trying to do with it. What do I get for free? How do I get my data in there? What's that adoption for the customer look like? We limit it right now in a few angles. You can limit it by usage if you like to talk with it a lot. We limit it by the number of data connections you want to put in, because storage-wise it takes a lot out of us. So you have different plans, depends on the usage. But for 30 or 100 bucks, you get different packages that allow you to chat with it forever. How do you integrate into things like Salesforce or Slack? I know you guys have Slack integration. What's the integration like on your end? For outdoor integration, we also have Slack integration. You can also embed it in your website. We have a lot of clients who just scrape their entire website. You can scrape websites with the platform and put it just as a chat bot on the website, because you can create bots with one. One of the features that we do, we call it 1D, that's the bots you're creating. You can create a composition of different connectors. If you are sales 1D, you can connect your sales force, you can connect Zoom info and connect your email, and it will create client calls.  Dave, what's interesting is you got kind of the business productivity, tech integration there, which is kind of tech stack meets business integration. And then you got platform engineering, a little bit different market. I see the numbers probably higher there, but it's the platform engineering that DevOps crowd. They're a tough crowd because, well, they're not, they're a good crowd. They're great people who go to cover the open source, but there's a lot of nuance to the infrastructures of every single company. So in a way, your adoption is a little bit harder, I'd imagine, because they got to get comfortable with the tool and make their environment connect to you. It's how do you- There's higher stakes, typically. Yeah, take us through how you land the beach head, because your beach head is clear, problem solved, clearer to me at least, but not so clear on the DevOps side, because I see it being squishy there. What's your- Actually, the co-pilots really help put all the puzzle pieces together. So the co-pilot approach is, how do you go and interact with the bot in a way? And we can give you examples. And AWS co-pilot approach would be, create an ECR, attach a policy to it, doing all sorts of investigation and context switching around AWS. And then you want to go and list all your GitHub repositories. And then you want to go into JIRA and interrogate your JIRA Ticket queue. Now you want to go, I don't know, into Kubernetes and create a deployment or restart a deployment or view logs. So- So there's productivity angle there big time. Absolutely. And that's usually the first flavor, the pellet that gets wet. And now you want to go and put some guardrails around that and you want to have more templatized infrastructure for an automation for the rest of the organization. And that's where the internal developer platform puts on top of that. What's been some of the feedback? Can you share some of the anecdotal comments from your customers that, because this is really getting into the Kubernetes containers, the DevOps, DevSecOps, I can imagine, that's vectoring into security area. Yeah. People are amazed that you could have these type of interactions. I'm not your most technical CEO, but I can go and create deployments myself and natural language interaction. I think that's a wow effect that people will have been- It's a good party. Hey, spin me up a Kubernetes cluster. Yeah. What's Kubernetes? Now it's also scary for some people because they're saying, now there's so much power with these tools but how do you rein in, that's where the governance comes in. I think the governance compliance we've been seeing, this has been the big trend in SuperCloud 4, is that if you get governance compliance right in the front end, everything scales, the intellect scales, the automation scales, the productivity of opportunity scales, that seems to be the quick main thing that everyone has got to do their homework on. But a lot of times people just, they're out experimenting and they think, okay, they bolt on governance and privacy at the end, but it seems a little bit different this time because the lawyers are more involved. Companies are more concerned. You've heard some stories that oops, we should have done that. So I think there's a greater awareness. Would you agree? Yes. And as you have also mentioned, so we have a hybrid infrastructure where people can run the entire operation execution side of it from their infrastructure. And then they call back our large language models and our embeddings. All right, final word as we wrap up. First of all, thank you for coming on to the Cube for SuperCloud 4. I love the hot startups. You guys are in the, I'm kind of jealous. I kind of have fun while I wish I was back on the trenches, your age starting a company, because it's a great time to start a company. Advice to other founders out there and around what's going on in the arena as an entrepreneur. I mean, it's very challenging, very difficult to do a startup. So hats off to you guys. And two, what do you hope to achieve this year? So two questions to end. I mean, we'll start with you. Advice to other founders how to handle the current situation and what your goals are in the arena. Stay the course. It's we're in choppy waters. I don't even have to go into the Israel situation. You addressed it up front. Certain things just belittle everything else we're doing, but it's still stay the course. Markets are gonna go up and down. You can't control what the VCs, what their appetite is, what the flavor of the month is, what their evaluation is. You just have to go into execute and control what you can. And that's what we've been doing. Keep your boat away from the rocks, as we say. You know, where do I want to go? My next milestone and the next 100 customers. And then beyond. There's a lot of smart money out there. A lot of smart money. So, you know, even though the funny market may look weird, it's weird, there's some smart money out there. But your advice to other founders who are in the arena and what's your goals for the year? My advice is again, execution. I think that's the one thing startups needs to have in mind, not investors, not like the markets. You just need to focus on your execution. Because as you said, we are agile. We can move fast. We can break stuff. Focus on your execution and differentiators. Like the side of the value that you bring to the market that no one else does, even if it's small and make it grow. But focus on execution. Because if you can do it good and fast enough on that differentiator, on that very small differentiator, you will win. And you will get the money you need and you'll get the people you need to do it. And your goals? My goals as any business is to be as big as we can and hopefully not needing any of the investors money. We hope to grow fast enough to outgrow that but also look forward for a partnership with investors and clients. It's a great market. It's a whole nother. Cloud was easy to get started and now it's easier with AI. You can, if you get it right, that's the key. Guys, thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it. Great to have you, Q. We'll be back next with our enterprise guru panel. Howie Shue is going to be moderating an excellent panel between Google, Microsoft and Salesforce. Top AI leaders to give you the perspective of innovation at the enterprise. We've got the founders, we've got hot startups and now enterprise leaders. We'll be right back with Howie Shue and the enterprise leaders panel after this short break.


Welcome back everyone. We had some questions here so it was just good to answer those questions about schedule prayer time. How about the Google Classroom students? Is there anything that you are thinking about as far as scheduling your time for prayer is concerned? Any issues, difficulties? I think for most people it's tiredness, business, distraction. So if we can sit down and plan a solution for ourselves then I think it will be a lot easier for us to make that time of prayer and then reap the benefits as we've been discussing. Yeah okay Shana. Oh okay so the question is what is more important? Is it prayer or is it reading the Bible? Okay is it prayer or is it reading the Bible? Okay so see I would say that we have to ask a bigger question. This question will come later. The bigger question is how can I strengthen my relationship with God? So if you answer that question you will get the answer to your question. So when I'm you know developing my relationship with God for I have to know him so then I would make time for Bible reading and you know so that I can get revelation of okay what is it, who is God and what is he saying and to relate to him which is my time in prayer. So then I would know in every season of my life how much time I should spend for the word or how much time I should spend in prayer. So you know it's not one or the other both are important but you just have to you know sort of it's like they say two wheels of a vehicle you can't say which one is important you need both for the vehicle to run. Yeah so did I answer your question? Okay so it's more about strengthening my relationship with God both will come in prayer and word true yeah anything else? I saw your hand was slowly going up so I thought okay maybe another one okay no worries we can move to the next topic here okay Paul has a question yes Brother Paul I don't think I'll be able to hear you could you kindly message can you type it in the chat please okay so Brother Paul I can't hear you at all I'm sorry you if you could please type your question in the chat that would be helpful okay so feel free to you know type it as we okay here is the question what is the best duration of prayers okay what is the best duration of prayers this also has a similar answer to what I told Sean so we can't really put a time to it see I could be praying for two hours but maybe that prayer is not effective because I don't know the foundations of prayer whatever we went through earlier in our course so it's not so much the duration it's the effectiveness of the prayer which is important now having said that it would be good for us to at least try an hour of personal prayer time on a daily basis I'm simply saying an hour okay there's no recommendation in the in the Bible some people quote Jesus when Jesus told his disciples you know you could have at least prayed for an hour he says that so they say okay then Jesus also was suggesting that people can pray for one hour nothing wrong in it it's a good suggestion so why not do at least one hour so that's what I would say Brother Paul one hour would be a good beginning from there you could go anywhere there may be times in our you know days where we may put in less than one hour that's okay I mean don't beat yourself about the one hour it's just like a reference that's all okay so yeah yes Sean ma'am for me personally I think the best amount of time the duration for prayer would be the time that you can focus and concentrate because when you can like focus on the content for 10 minutes I mean that's when you have a good prayer I mean if you if you can't if you're doing a 15 20 minutes and you can't concentrate during that prayer that it won't be a proper prayer but if you at least like focus on the content for the 10 minutes at least I feel that will be a good duration for prayer whatever how much ever you can meditate on the meditate and focus on the prayer is the best prayer for me okay okay sure I mean I accept that or whatever time you can concentrate but then my only thing is even that shouldn't become a limit so if I can only concentrate for 10 minutes I shouldn't say that is my capacity I can't pray for more than 10 minutes hopefully because I'm building my relationship with God it has to go from 10 minutes to 20 minutes I focus has to increase only then I'm growing otherwise I've become limited okay so just to bear that in mind okay and also please don't take this as some strict rule but it's good to have a discipline as we've seen you know from the life of Jesus from the life of Daniel okay so if we don't have any more questions we can move on anything you wanted to ask pray and give our time with God like it's it's better right because if we do it in the morning because we show that God you're important now I'm thinking of you yes yeah definitely so Rinna is asking wouldn't it be better to give time in the morning to God yes you know if you can work towards it that would be the best because you've finished your prayer before you deal with anything else so I heard Pastor Ashish's testimony about how he wakes up at 4 a.m every day he's been doing it since his you know his early days when he became a believer till now okay so he prays an hour or more every day and the amount of work we see him do you know in office because we all work every day right it's an incredible amount of work that that obviously you know is done at office and elsewhere but I can't imagine somebody as busy as pastor making time every day for personal prayer time okay and he still talks about it to you know teach people I think if pastor can do it anybody can do it okay so but it's something that has to be important if it's important to me I will do it no matter what okay so we have to recognize the importance and develop it so over time what happens you know let's say we start now one year down the line two years down it will just become a habit for all of us okay and and you'll see the power of God in and through your life because of this discipline which you develop so yeah yes Sean so it's better if okay okay yeah so Sean was just talking about the timing of waking up and praying if at all you're doing it in the morning I think every individual can decide I know people who wake up at 3 a.m you know one of my colleagues she does that every day she wakes up at 3 a.m she prays for a you know couple of hours goes back to bed then wakes up does her morning chores and then comes to work so I think it's very personal each one of us can pick whatever might work for us okay all right so let's move on then we will come to chapter nine now which talks about prophetic prayer so prophetic prayer we will look at it more in the context today of praying for others but we will touch upon praying the things that God shows for us as well but more about you know praying for others now God's word tells us that he is a God who reveals new things to us he can reveal things which are unknown to our natural mind and show us the way ahead so there are a couple of scriptures in our notes I'll quickly you know go through them Isaiah 42 verse 9 I'm reading the second verse there behold the former things have come to pass and new things I declare before they spring forth I tell you of them so we as believers we are not limited just to the five senses we don't say things like only if I can touch only if I can like Thomas only if I can put my finger through you know the pierced hands of Jesus I will believe what did Jesus say even though those who have not seen they are more blessed so we're not limited to our five senses and this scripture says that God can reveal new things which before they happen before they spring forth I tell you of them so even the things which have not happened is it possible for God to reveal that to us what do you think yes very much because what about the prophecies of Isaiah you know we call them the messianic prophecies Jesus is not come you know he will be born in Bethlehem born of a virgin these are all prophecies foretold you know many hundreds of years before Jesus was born so God is a God who is able to reveal beforehand the things which are to come another passage Isaiah 46 and verse 10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things that are not yet done saying my counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure so the initial part that says declaring the end from the beginning okay so this was something about my personal you know journey that was a certain decision that I needed to make okay so I wasn't sure whether it was like a it was like a transaction something so I wasn't sure if it will work out in the long run and I had to make a decision hey am I going forward with this or not I prayed this prayer I said Lord you declare the end from the beginning meaning you know the end of things before they even start because what do we know about God's nature he's omniscient he knows he knows where each one is going to go he knows what decision each one is going to make not that he's controlling those decisions but he's just aware you know what might happen so no I just prayed that prayer I said Lord you know how this deal is going to turn out you give me the wisdom if it is not going to work out reveal and it didn't work out right but the good part is God revealed before I experience a loss so I'm saying with regard to everything God knows he knows us he knows what's going to happen in our lives he knows what's going to happen in the lives of people that we are ministering to okay so that's the beauty of God he knows even the details of the past and that's where we talk about the prophetic prophetic okay so right now I'm not going to get into it but there is an apc publication known as understanding the prophetic how do these prophetic words come how do we receive these words how do we release these words you know how can we guide people in the prophetic so there's all that in that apc publication you also have a second year course on the prophetic but today all I want to touch on is that the prophetic can be helpful in praying in prayer so being prophetic or hearing from God can help us pray prayers that God wants us to pray so how does knowing God's will beforehand help we can we'll see some examples in our notes we can delay or avert God's judgment so when we know you know for example I'll get into it later but when we know that something is going to happen you know it's a matter of judgment so let's take for example okay that Jonah but Jonah didn't really he was not willing you know for God to forgive the people but maybe he had a sense that God is going to forgive the people and that's why he got so upset with God so you can kind of know beforehand you know what God wants to do and you can pray in line with it so you can avert judgment or you can delay the judgment which may be coming upon a city or the life of an individual when we are prophetic we can foil Satan's attacks that simply means you know some what do we read about Satan Satan is against God's people he's like a roaring lion you know seeking whom he may devour so does he have plans against every believer very much he wants to do something which will bring the believer down but when we are prophetic we can come to know his plans beforehand and pray you know for God's protection and his wisdom and being prophetic would also help us pray the plans which God has for a person so I'll just tell you one example just to you know encourage you since we're talking about prophecy and all so this was long ago I just graduated and I was I think I was in a job also at that point in my life but I went for a prayer meeting a prayer meeting from church we had 40 days of just worship prayer intercession all that so I went for that after I think it was the last day so we had an extended time and at the end of that extended time the person who was ministering they were led prophetically you know like what I'm talking about right now to reveal certain things which God had in their mind so they call different people and they happen to call me also so it was a very strange experience so I went and then that person told me that you know you will be teaching God's word but I like Sarah I laughed the reason is at that point or little before that I was leading a life group and before my life group you know I used to literally cry because I don't know how to you know plan put together what I have understood so that I can communicate so it's pretty hard so I would do my study and then I would really struggle to communicate what I have learned to my set of you know life group girls so I was I was really shocked I thought why is he saying this I don't think I want to do this in fact I just want to quit anything that has to do with teaching okay but God revealed much beforehand what he is going to do in my life and then things started happening you know it was not something that I wanted for my life but God led me in this way and today when I you know look at opportunities to share God's word I always recall that God knew before I could understand that this is what he wants me to do right but what did I do when I came to know what is the my direction I started praying you know Mary what she says be it unto me according to your word God whatever you say yes amen we receive it I receive it in my life so what I'm trying to say is when we hear from God we can pray according to God's will okay so it's very important to be prophetic when we pray so here another point is you can pray for one's destiny because God knows what he wants them to do through their lives and when he leads you to pray that prayer you can pray that for the person and then of course you know prayer and proclamation so where we declare the power of God so now let's come back to the first point here about averting God's judgment or delaying so we find here that there are instances in God's word where we see that God revealed much beforehand the judgment which was going to come upon people or going to come upon a community or a region so in the book of Amos Amos chapter 7 could somebody please read verses 1 to 6 Amos 7 verses 1 to 6 Thus the Lord God showed me behold he formed locus swarms at the beginning of the late crop indeed it was a late crop after the king's moans and so it was when they had finished eating the grass of the land that I said oh Lord God forgive I pray oh that Jacob may stand for he is small so the Lord relented concerning this it shall not be said the Lord thus the Lord God showed me behold the Lord God called for conflict by fire and he consumed the great deep and devoured the territory and I said oh Lord God sees I pray oh that Jacob may stand for he is small so the Lord relented concerning this this also shall not be said the Lord God okay so very interesting okay Amos you will read in verses 14 and 15 he is a prophet he is a man called by God to prophesy so he in the Old Testament prophets were the ones who heard from God what God is going to do what God is planning so he heard from God that judgment is coming upon God's people so in the first situation God shows locusts okay locusts are what insects which destroy so he gets the picture so Amos is seeing the picture of locusts coming and eating up the crop so he has to interpret it he interprets it as God's judgment is coming upon the people so when we come to know that you know there is going to be judgment or something like that what are we supposed to do what should we do let's say God reveals to us like Amos he saw something something and in that you know he came to know he understood oh God is going to do this judgment is coming so what should I do if you get a picture what should you do go and tell others okay go and tell others how about the others okay repent and pray for them okay what else can we do yes okay so read the word more and understand it and then go tell others okay okay fine so varied responses that you you are recommending it really depends okay whether or not we must tell it to the people we have to go by what the Holy Spirit is impressing on our hearts but here is the common thing that you and I can do we need to intercede and you know what is intercession intercession is talking to God on behalf of the people what did Amos do he said God it should not it shall not be please don't do this so he is interceding for the people when God is showing the coming judgment so what did God say God said okay I won't do it right so this is how you know God ministers through the prophetic word he will reveal this is coming or something is going to happen or you know people need to repent so he will show it to us when he shows it to us our first responsibility whether you tell somebody else or not that's the second question but the first responsibility is pray intercede you know go before God and ask God mercy you know give us your mercy you know pour out your mercy so intercession is the first response that you and I must have so in that passage we saw first time he saw locus second time what did you see yeah so fire again when he sees the fire he understands judgment twice God is showing him judgment is coming upon the people okay so what does he do after that again sorry yeah he pleads with him so he intercedes for the people once again okay so that should be our first response so God is a God who can reveal his purposes you know the what is there in the father's heart what are the intentions in God's heart he can reveal it to us and then we can start praying and interceding whether for an individual our own selves our families or you know anyone else so that is how the judgment we saw that what did God do he said okay Amos no judgment you prayed so no judgment we'll see later we have an entire section on intercession so in the book of Ezekiel it says even if there's one man standing in the gap God says you know I won't put my wrath on the people so we can take that position to pray for people but we need to hear from God right so when we hear from God we have this advantage that we are praying in line with what God is thinking and what God is doing so what if I don't hear from God and I just keep praying I'll take my pattern the Lord's prayer and I'll keep praying one hour I'll pray enough it's not effective so while the pattern is important while the structure is important the schedule is important sensitivity to the Holy Spirit you know is very very crucial so that's when you can pick up what is God saying okay what is God going to do so you can pick up these matters and you can begin to pray for those things maybe you just sense that I don't know why but I feel like you know when when I go today to work it probably is going to be a hard day you can't explain it but you sense that way then what do you do you just spend extra time in prayer and say Lord I need your grace no I need your mercy so things like that so God can reveal or impress it on our hearts and we must pray for it and similarly you find that especially those who are in leadership in the Bible God has revealed many things to them okay for example Moses, Moses becomes an intercessor for the people so he goes before God he comes to know that God is very upset with the Israelites why because they are a complaining people they are people with unbelief okay they are disobedient they are stiff necked they are stubborn so what does God say he gets very upset he says I'm going to destroy these people. Moses God tells Moses which means a man has received a word from God that this is what God is going to do judgment is coming upon the Israelites you will see in the different passages which are mentioned here Moses goes back to God and he starts pleading with God as a leader he says God you brought these people out of Egypt what will the Egyptians think if you destroy them they are your people you need to forgive them what you know please have mercy on us so prophetic intercession is a very important part of leadership we need to hear from God what is God doing even as pastors leaders right if I'm not hearing from God what does God want to do for my people I may not be able to pray effectively okay so we have to develop this ability to hear from God prophetic intercession we're just calling it prophetic intercession it's very simple it is to be sensitive to what God wants to do in these cases there was judgment which God already announced and Amos Moses you know other leaders in in God's word we see that they start to pray and they say God let this not happen Abraham do you remember Abraham yeah even in that situation isn't it when God said that Sodom and Gomorrah I'm going to destroy what did Abraham do he prayed he said God no please how did God respond yeah so it was like a bargain with God right so unfortunately in that case it didn't work out because they were so wicked Sodom and Gomorrah but the point is God is willing to listen to us he reveals so that somebody can pray for the people and then he also by nature he's a God of mercy so he listens when we pray such prayers okay next prophetic intercession foils Satan's attacks as I already stated there can be times where we sense that Satan is trying to you know have a weapon against us so in the case of Peter do you remember Peter what did Jesus tell Peter this is in Luke 22 verses 31 and 32 where he says Simon Simon indeed Satan has asked for you that he may sift you as wheat but I have prayed for you that your faith should not fail and when you have returned to me strengthen your brethren so when Jesus came to know that Satan is going to attack Peter what did Jesus do for him pray okay pray when they pray it becomes a protection for the person that we are praying for that is the reason when Jesus came to know that Satan is going to tempt confuse distract Peter he started praying for Peter okay so God's protection can come upon our lives if we pray if we don't pray what'll happen there's no protection Satan can just come in and do what he wants to do and that is why God is revealing God is revealing hey this person needs protection so can you pray for them so when we pray it is as if you know you're building a hedge or like a compound you're just building a protection around them and they are protected from the attacks of the devil in Hosea 12 13 it says by a prophet the Lord brought Israel out of Egypt and by a prophet he was preserved okay so preserved here the Hebrew word is Shamar S H A M A R Shamar and it means a hedge okay a protection around so by Moses Israel was protected how was Israel protected I already shared the incident where Moses interceded with God he prayed for the people so again coming back to leadership when you know God leads us to you know take care of people minister to people one of our primary responsibility is prayer you know we can instruct all we want but when we pray what is happening Shamar preserve Moses preserve the people through his intercession so as a leader one of my primary responsibilities is to pray for the people because when I pray for the people there will be preservation or protection around the people so that is how one can protect you know people that God puts in our hearts against the attacks of the devil you know I'm sure many of us we we are aware that generally parents your parents what do they do they pray for their children why do they pray for their children that God should protect them from you know sin deception all the all the wrong things which are happening in the world right so what happens what happens when parents pray like this the children are protected by God and sometimes you know even in a prophetic sense meaning God can reveal hey this is happening you know maybe your your child or your sibling or somebody God can reveal Satan is working like this can you pray so when you pray God protects that person so we can destroy the attacks of the devil through our prayers and prophetic prayers okay you've understood when we hear from God and we pray for them so has it ever happened in your situation that God revealed to you about somebody and then you prayed for them yeah okay prince you have a story yeah sure now God reveals someone and we like we didn't pray about it is like from next time God will not trust us with those things okay okay got your question so you're saying if God reveals something we should go and pray with them no if God so see for my question I have got it like maybe like last year so I was it's in early morning like I got a dream about one of our Cheshmambu so he's doing his business in Delhi and I showed in my dream it's very clear like there were some disputes with his partners and he got betrayed and he got loss of certain amount I was so sure about it and I was led I was like want to go and tell him but he's so bigger than me because I was like okay I don't want to tell and the later or two three weeks later he came back from Delhi and he's talking with my pastor and my pastor came and he's sharing what why he's like so much long for one and a half and he told like he got some troubles in his business so I understood and I asked him is about he got betrayed in business and no no and is this the amount that he was lost and he told like that is the exact amount he was betrayed with and lost okay the thing is like I didn't shared with him I didn't prayed with him prayed for him also like I didn't even intercede I just got it and I didn't do anything about it okay okay so what would have been the right thing to do so from the next time when I have any dream and I go share with my pastor he's like did you pray about it he asked me so my question is like if God tells reveals us some things about people and if we just see them and we just leave them God will not give next time another chance yeah so okay so there seems to be two things that I should address okay so one is when we get a message from God what would be the right thing to do as I shared you pray that is the first thing so God may or may not want you to go and tell somebody okay because their heart may not be ready to receive it so that's the mistake most of us make the moment I see a picture or a dream I'm all excited I just want to tell I saw this you were in the dream and you know this was happening to you and God is going to protect you that wasn't get scared they're like oh are you serious you know is that going to happen so you're making it worse you're not building faith you're building fear so actually when we get a dream or God reveals something you don't have to go and tell okay make that a note whenever I get a message from God I don't tell unless and I start praying about it unless God impresses on my heart okay you should tell this okay so that is one point second what if I don't pray you know God said something and I don't take it up seriously so we we study your prince that you know as far as God's grace God's gift is concerned it grows when we use it when you don't use it it will become dormant okay so that's why Paul also told Timothy stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of the hands so we must practice what God gives us so if you don't do it once don't worry about it next time you pray okay for the person but if you keep neglecting if you keep neglecting Paul also tells Timothy do not neglect the gift of God which was given to you by the laying out on of hands it's possible that you may not hear you know sensitively not that God is not speaking the person is losing their capacity so that's how it is okay sure great good questions there so I think we've got the point when God reveals we said that we can pray so that judgment is averted we can pray so that there is protection from God and this is what intercession and the intercessory ministry especially prophetic ministry can you know bring to the body of Christ we can hear from God and we can pray in line with it then you know God lives of people are blessed but very important just because something is revealed don't go and make it a big thing because it'll cause more confusion and fear than faith so only what God tells us to reveal and when we study about the prophetic we'll also understand there is a way to reveal it you know you don't have to say everything from the pulpit you don't there might be a better way of sharing that message to the concerned person maybe if God reveals somebody is sinned okay now depending on the situation I may want to call it out from the pulpit but that's not the normal practice I might just finish the service and say brother can I meet you I meet that person have a nice chat with the person and say when I was praying for you I felt like this what do you think now hopefully if that person shares and says yes you're right I repent well and good okay so you get what I'm saying right when God reveals it doesn't mean we have to go and tell immediately okay that you we have to use wisdom use your wisdom and best thing to do is pray about it when you pray God will do great things we also have the section on how when we pray what God reveals like we look at Nathaniel in the Bible and Jesus looks at him and he says a man without guile how did Jesus know Jesus knew the character of the person without interacting with the person he looked at Peter and said you shall be you know a rock but Peter is a very unstable guy but what is that prophetic word is revealing the destiny of the individual so when God reveals the destiny what do we do we hold on to it to start praying Lord y'all you said that Pete you know I am a rock I claim it I'm going to walk in this so you begin to pray about it prayer and proclamation and God puts a word in our mouth these have to do with spiritual warfare and we'll talk about that you know a little later on so I can see that Shawn wants to ask a question yes my question is that do we need the prophetic prayer because we already have like revelation so shouldn't we just focus on figuring out what that means what God is saying the other things to come through revelation okay yeah I look at revelation I mean yeah sure sure so what Shawn is asking is asking is there a need for prophetic prayer when we already have the logos you know the revealed will of God through the word of God so here's the thing Shawn when we read about the gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1st Corinthians chapter 12 you know there we understand that these gifts so there is a list of all the gifts um yeah not getting that particular verse but you see these gifts are given for okay so verse 7 verse 7 I'm reading from NIV it says now to each one the manifestation of the spirit is given for the common good okay common good so just with that one small point what I want to say is when we talk about prophecy or the prophetic word Paul said that there is something good which will come out of it that's why God has given it also so though the revealed will of God is with us there is something good you know that God reveals through the prophetic word as well so everything is not in the revealed will for example you know which vehicle should I buy which job should I take I don't have those specifics but God can reveal it through a prophetic word so there is a job that the prophetic word does and therefore it's over and above so primary is word of God no compromise it is the authority but in addition God uses the prophetic word also and as we've seen you know the other texts you know we have terms like edify it builds God's people and so and Paul also says do not um you know do not neglect prophecies so we will treat it with respect and honor because God is the one who's giving it also okay yeah sorry we talk about the gifts of holy spirit right so we talk about gifts of interpretation gift of tongues but why don't we focus on the other gifts of holy spirit till now we only like talked about these two we're not only only about tongues interpretation like why don't we focus on the other gifts of holy spirit yeah so we must focus on all the gifts of the spirit but somehow in practice from the book of acts when you see tongues and prophecy are the most basic gifts so it's like saying you begin with these and then you talk about all the others so I would recommend an apc publication called as gifts of the Holy gifts of the spirit it has all the nine gifts and you know sufficient explanation from God's word about each of them so yes all should be talked about but tongues and prophecy are the basic ones maybe that is why people talk seem to talk more about it okay so with that I might have to close the class but we can always talk after okay right so okay thank you everyone for your attention let's pray and close off can one maybe Sean can you pray please yeah we'll close the class pray pray pray pray into the mic have any father thank you very much for gathering us all here today and thank you very much for guiding us and leaving us in your word and please help us to understand more about your word any father thank you very much to talk talk about your words and Nancy ma'am thank you father and Jesus let me pray amen amen okay thank you thank you bye everyone