Welcome everybody back to Siegel Talks here at the Martinie Siegel Theatre Center at the Greater Center CUNY. My name is Frank Henschka and I'm the director of this center and this is the penultimate talk for this week in our series after four months. We have been traveling around the planet but also to New York in America to hear voices of artists, of theater artists, performance artists and how they experienced this moment. This is a time of corona where we are all faced with existential questions, situations and it's a dangerous, dangerous time. But it's different everywhere in the world and as we've learned from all our talks, lots we have in common, we are all connected but also individual experiences are different. And also enteros and solutions found for theater performing arts are different. America still is in a disastrous place, over 150,000 dead people, most probably 40, 50 million people with infections. It's 10 times more than 13, 14 times more than the testing suggests and and of course the leadership we feel is not able to address to help to protect people actually calling us. What are we saying these policies are murderous for some people and the disenfranchised communities who have not been in the center. We are suffering African-Americans are twice as likely to die from infections because of the long, long discrimination and and it's a hard time. Theater are closing small places are closing, nothing is open in New York City, restaurants you can't go inside. If you go through Midtown where our graduate center is every second store, it's barricaded even still it's a bit apocalyptic. We all hope that the election perhaps will bring will bring a change as much as we complain in in in the US here which New York was the epicenter at the moment. I know that the planet Earth and moved on to Florida and California, but there are places in the world that have been struggling with civil war with injustice is discrimination. And for a much longer time where the corona is just perhaps one of many things they go through one of those places is Lebanon and the city of Beirut. Two years ago, I think, and I liked it very, very much and the spirit of it was the American University. Or team. And, and so this is a place that matters that is important. You can see a city that came back from a civil war on the green line that divided the city. And we need to hear from from the Middle East and next to Tunisia or Tunisia, what I would say they will truly is an open city. And it's still so complicated. And I can only imagine what the corona crisis put out after the December uprising and now this incredible complicated financial disaster situation. So we have with us to artists to see the artists. Significant ones ones that are really at the front line. It's a Dima Mikhail Mata and Yara Nassar. So welcome. And thank you for taking the time to join us. Hi, thank you for inviting us.  A Fulbright scholar is a great thing and Fulbright has been so much good in the world. And she studied at Rutgers University in creative writing and she founded Cliffhangers in 2014. A bilingual storytelling platform in Beirut taking on a very old tradition and redefining it with new new ideas, new technology and new traumaturgical interventions. Her first play, this is not a memorized script. This is a well rehearsed story. She was in the Shack Festival at some readings in New York and actually was open in February 2020 shortly before the corona crisis in Beirut. Working on her play Yara is a Lebanese performer, writer and director, a theater maker and she's interested in inspecting her identity with respect to the collective memory and the paradoxical binaries of her society. And she approaches themes that often focus on the deeper function of social stereotypes and daily in urban context like Beirut, as well as the private and intimate space where we in you in your apartment or in our personal relationship. She got selected for three months residency at La Cité international design, she's a new work, the miss the potential of a hypothetical French woman and following her family and questions belonging to timing and decision making process and she is part of a collective that's developing a new work in Zurich and Station Beirut. And I think we said it will premiere in April 2020 so I don't think that really happened. So anyway you guys hope you will forgive me my introduction really this is about listening to you. Where are you and what time is it maybe you start. Well, I'm in I'm in Beirut I'm in my apartment and it's 7pm here. And yeah, and the sun is about to set so I'm about I'm participating in the talk and I will witness the sunset soon behind you. So if it gets dark we had once a talk I think it was from the Palestine and usually it gets so dark in the room so we had to put some light on but it won't. So I hope you will be will be in the light and enlighten us. What neighborhood are you in Beirut. Which literally means the place that looks looks out on the other places it's a small hill in Beirut.  Wonderful. And Yara where are you. Well I'm 10 minutes away from demo. It's also 7pm. I'm also in my apartment. I prepared the lights. Good. Yeah. Where you in. I'm next to the museum. So I'm down by the museum. So it's the end of the beginning of. The museum that with the director saved lots of this culture in the civil war by putting concrete around the. The classical. Sharpshooter still you see the impact of bullets. So.  How are you guys experience this moment what's. What is going on in Beirut. Yeah I would. Yeah I mean I can. Okay so I was actually in Zurich. After. I would like actually to mention the play because we worked on the play in February. And the demand I directed the play and we had been working for months. And then the revolution started in October. So we postponed the play from November to February which now seems like really long time ago but it's not. And then after that I actually went to Zurich to to work on the play the performance you just mentioned that was of course postponed. And then I went out as a form of publication. For the moment and I recently came back to Beirut so I've been here now for three weeks or four weeks. And it has been very weird to witness the pandemic and the economic collapse that is happening and all the political frustration that we're witnessing. And from the blissful town of Zurich where everything is very calm and beautiful and public space is very there for us to enjoy even during a pandemic. So it was really weird for me. And now I'm in transition actually because I will be moving for a while to Zurich to join the ensemble of Theatre Neymar. So yeah it feels very weird to be suspended in this moment in Beirut. And I don't know what to feel so much or but it definitely has changed massively in the four months where I've been away. It's really it's also apocalyptic actually and sad but yeah. I think for now I can pass the conversation to Dima. Well so as Yara said we premiered the play in February and then two weeks later the lockdown began. And so it was it was very strange because it kind of went from you know a week before that we had we had a party. We were out of bars celebrating the things we had accomplished and the play and and all of that and suddenly two weeks later there was suddenly nothing right. Everything closed. We were told to stay at home only supermarkets bakeries and pharmacies were open. And suddenly there's this kind of alternate reality that that began for us where you know we're all learned how to cook. And all stated home constantly reading about the pandemic constantly checking the numbers of people who are infected the number of people who passed away always reading all these articles. Okay now wear a mask now actually it's saying maybe the mask is not enough wash your hands actually it's not the surfaces. It's some right so all these contradictory articles that kept coming up and we were just taking in so much information that we were all just like balls of anxiety. And meanwhile in parallel the country was sinking in a massive economic collapse. The Lebanese pound lost so much value. Just to give you a little bit of an idea. A dollar was 1500 Lebanese pounds. And now it's fluctuating but it's around 8000 Lebanese pounds. What it was instead of having a dollar you have 10 cents almost. Actually I have to say something also the contradiction that happened from being in the street for months and months and months and occupying public spaces again and everything. For me when I came back and went out the first time and saw the downtown and all the streets empty. It was it was just it was like it was never there. This was very very intense to see. And I think the pandemic has been a gift to the government. Actually because it gave them room to to silence the people again or at least to try to silence the people again and to really get comfortable and spread all their oppression. So. Yeah, I don't know how much people do know but if I understand right in December everybody was on the street day after day Sahara I think she was called from. Well being on the demonstration says he really the entire city was involved and one or two or a small some it was a really a massive showing as a. Here the philosopher who was with us on Monday said that people like always on the streets will imagine a different life. We want to see a different model of the world you think things can be better. And they went out to protest to demand a share or share or share. It was a massive event. So was it an uprising wasn't a revolution. What what do you guys think. It's a revolution for sure it started on October 17. And, you know, I, I don't think revolutions end right. It's not because right now we're not in in millions in the streets it doesn't mean that we're not in the state of revolution. But yes for for about three months, we were in the streets every day we were blocking roads we were protesting. For about two million people in the street and we're only about six million people in the entire country so two million of us demanding demanding our rights demanding that's something change for something to change everybody was tired everybody was exhausted we were angry. We've spent years and years our parents spent years and years of just the same problems. Nothing had been solved the same people who are the warlords are now in government and they're the same. And so I think on October 17 people really just kind of collectively decided it's enough. As Yara was saying, you know, this was our reality for three months.  I mean, also now I took to go back a bit to to the pandemic situation. I mean, I did not experience it in Lebanon. And I think that was for me, I was kind of grateful to be honest, because I think I would have been much more triggered had I been in Beirut, because the stressors around us are really a lot. So, I think we already don't feel safe. We already don't feel protected. So it's the then the COVID-19 comes and heightens all these feelings. And I was very interested in how different communities deal with the situation, even in terms of behavior. I'm super obsessed with behavior in general, in relation to work. And so suddenly I everyone has has this new regulation on how to be in a society. And I actually have been working for 10 years in a hospital on different hospitals with an NGO as a clown doctor. So for me, this whole hygiene and immune like who's immune, who's not how we need to deal with different kids with different immunity. And suddenly it was super weird to see all this hospital behavior everywhere in the world. Should I put the mask like this? Should I wash my hands like this? Okay, 20 seconds to wash. Like it just became a super collective behavior everywhere in the world. And it took a whole new space or understanding of how also how we deal with each other when we're passing on the street. Like we move and then the person waits for us or that all these weird codes that we developed so quickly. It's like the opposite of being in the street on this rush and going and screaming and not caring if you're close. And so it's went from here to here. Oh, you can't see my hands. Yeah. As someone said, if you see a play about the prison, the idea is we all live in a prison. Prisoners if it's a play about the military in a way we all soldiers in hospitals or a film, you know, we are all patients. And now we do have as we think what you say, you know, every we all, you know, we all sick, the society is sick. The way of living things don't work. That's what everybody says. But in Beirut already, I remember from my visit was so complicated. Services and garbage and water or electricity. So do you think it got worse since the street uprising, or is it just not more obvious what an x-ray this just shows what is wrong. I mean, everything became exacerbated the economic collapse was was, you know, it was boiling right it was about to happen and this is why people took to the streets. And I think what the pandemic did is that it just exacerbated and accelerated everything. And so, you know, we've always had problems with water with electricity, garbage filling the streets pollution, etc. What ended up happening is that all of that just kind of took on such an enormous space, you know, right now we get about two hours of electricity a day. I'm sorry. Around what time is it like a special time they tell you. So, so we never know when it comes when it goes. It basically we're like, okay, the power is now on. Okay, we do, we do our laundry, we turn on the water heater, we kind of try to get everything done. You know, we, we can charge our phones charge our laptops all of that. So yeah, no, it just adds to the uncertainty it adds to how much we are, we are hyper aware of how much we're denied our basic rights, basically. And also to say that, for example, for sure, everything accelerated since now with the pandemic and everything. But the thing is that we've been accumulating for 30 plus years. A massive, a massive structure of oppression that is very obvious in some ways and less obvious in other ways, but it's been building up and building up and building up. So it's not also the first time that people go to the streets. The difference this time was that different age groups, and not only in Beirut, not only working people working in art and social NGOs or, or, or, or, like, it's not only an alternative group of people going to the streets, and trying to convince the mass, it was really everyone from different, different backgrounds. And this was the, for me, the difference this time. And this is why I had a different hope, always a bit cautious, because I think I'm always aware of the possibility of, of disappointment. But it did feel different. And now it's not that everything stopped, there had, there are initiatives, there are people camping since weeks in said this, which is an area where there is, they're trying to make a damp, which is super problematic on the ecological level, but also it will not bring water. It's just a huge deal to bring money to politicians, and people are camping there, trying to stop that from happening. They're going to different ministries to. So there are things happening, of course, with less smaller groups of people. So it's, it's not easy to protest for the pandemic. Yeah. And if I understand right, and please correct me if it's wrong, but now you can only get $100 dollars out, or so limited, you can get from the bank, or even good class families are struggling for money and food. And, and is that right? Actually, I mean, the, the days when people could withdraw $100 at a time. Right now, even if you have a certain amount of dollars or bank account, I think it's necessary that both currencies are. And so this is why a lot of people have dollars in their bank accounts. So right now, the bank is basic banks are holding them hostage, and they will give you Lebanese pounds instead at a very low rate. So people are not only suffering from hyper from the hyperinflation that is happening. So it's not even just inflated hyperinflation, but also we do not have access to the money that we have put in banks, literally our people's money is being held hostage. Because you have the two currencies, you can always spend Lebanese or in American dollars, everybody except for those. And so you're no longer able to withdraw the dollar for families, you know, to have an emergency or to buy food or someone gets sick. It's not, it's a disaster situation. So what, how did the performing arts coming in at the moment and perhaps also at the time of the uprising, the revolution. Did you guys stop, say we cannot do, we participate or was it part of the demonstration? Yeah, I would mean during the time. But we're talking since the lockdown or since the first let's maybe first go to December and say October November. How did you was the theater community part of that? Or did you say we have to stop and we just everybody else. For the first couple of months, everything was postponed. Like we, we were supposed to do our play in November and we decided to postpone there. Actually, when we did it in February, it was maybe one of the first or one of the first or the second play that that happened in Beirut since the since the revolution started, because there were a lot of talking about whether or not there should be art. At the moment. And, but I personally thought it was very important to focus on what was happening organically with everyone included not to directly take it to more intellectual space or. So actually everything stopped in the beginning and it was.  What status open? It wasn't like officially closed or open. I think just everyone organically made the decision to to push things to postpone things. And now with the pandemic, the theaters, I mean, it's not even really part of the conversation formally like there isn't a handbook that is given that says, OK, so we reopen theaters, but there's these restrictions. So each each institution is kind of handling it differently, but since the there's anyway very little infrastructure for theater. It's right now it's not even I feel it's not even in the conversation whether the theater should open or not or art spaces should open or not right now. No, there is nothing actually happening. I was supposed to do my new performance in September and now I just pushed it like months and months away. What what basically for me kind of how things developed since October is that I think for for a lot of us it was very important to be in the streets and protest and be part of the revolution and and and artists were of course in the streets, right? We were in the streets and whenever you you hear very catchy chants, you're like, that's probably where an artist is.  And and so as Yara said, it's not that the theater is closed, it's just that we kind of everybody decided that this is not the time to put on plays, but Yara and I and I'm sure other theater makers, performers, directors kept rehearsing. I mean, we kept her it was very difficult because we had to focus during our rehearsals, but we were always like, had to put our phones away, but we were so gripped to it to see what was happening, you know, at one point we were rehearsing and people were being attacked by the police and the army in the streets. And, you know, I, I one day I just paused and I cried. But, but I think for me, theater is revolutionary. Art is revolutionary and queer theater I mean the play we were working on is an autobiographical play that I wrote about being queer in Beirut and among other things of course and so. And so this subject has very in the country. And so for me this was my way of contributing to the revolution and, and I'm sure Yara, I mean, believed in it as well because I mean this is why this play is our is our baby, you know. And so when we decided to postpone it to February and when things kind of relatively calm down. Normal, what is normal in Lebanon but normal life kind of came back, we performed and then and then to two weeks and then maybe two other plays. premiered during this window of opportunity and then was the lockdown. Everything was closed, of course, and as Yara was saying there's little to no infrastructure. The state does not support the arts. Everything is very much individual or group initiatives with little to no funding. And so right now I've been talking to a lot of artists because I'm actually writing an article about how to reimagine theater in times of pandemic and economic collapse and there is a little effort to to start imagining theater taking a little bit more space. So one of the theaters opened its doors for free to whoever wants to stage a performance and then the kind of the deal was to split the ticket like the revenue from ticket sales. So, but now we went into another lockdown, at least till August 10 and then we'll see if the government will prolong it. And so now everything is back to very uncertain position. Yeah, I know Dima and Mosul Yara too. I mean you were involved in the LGBTQ community, the Beirut Pride, I think in 18 and storytelling worker tell us a little bit and also it was very controversial, right? You were from the government police and lots of interference. Well, so basically in 2017 I hosted the first LGBTQ plus storytelling night to take place in Lebanon, and it was during the first Beirut Pride, so which is kind of just a small, not a small, I mean it was an attempt at kind of a small one week thing where you know different LGBTQ plus events would take place and then the opening event was cancelled because the people received threats from extremist groups. Then the storytelling night that I hosted was the next day. And so I get to the venue, which is this big rooftop, beautiful rooftop of an art space called Station and I told the owner of the venue and I told him nobody is going to show up. And about an hour later, 400 people were on that rooftop and the event went on for about four hours because people kept wanting to go up and share their stories and basically speak. And this is not only related to LGBTQ plus voices but to so many other voices that are marginalized, voices that are oppressed. We are given so little opportunity to express ourselves freely. And really the censorship in this country is absurd and getting worse and worse.  So for me to stage a play where the story of a queer woman, for me this was very frightening but also very necessary. Yeah, it's definitely also getting worse as Dima mentioned. Like now it's getting to the level where if you post something on Facebook you can be called into questioning and even people who are in the streets and there is there's who are we're taking photos all the time like really looking at us taking photos so everything was being archived. It's, I mean, there is censorship, there is oppression but there was always a margin to speak up. Despite that and somehow find the loopholes and try to, to, yeah, to say what we want. But now I feel the consequences are getting worse and worse it's just getting really ridiculous. I don't know. It's like going back 15 years. And I don't want to sound too, to, I don't want to be it's not about sounding I don't want to be too negative and trying not to be but sometimes there are days and like, okay, we're really going backwards again. And it's, it's sad because it took really so much. I mean, as I mentioned before, this was, there were so many attempts and people also before us and the older and now that there's all age groups but also before they were a lot of people trying to, to, to creating the premise for us to also do something. You know, and now I feel very angry when I see that things are just being pulled back. That's my overall feeling a little bit. When you go back and even the great et al atnan, you know, the great writer, poet and painter, you know what she went through, she was trying to be there, be the art man, madman, seen section and ultimately also. She never came back. She's in their 80s, a great world perspective. She was not possible. Or even at that time that you all have to go through this again. So the wrong case of post can get you into jail. You can get you into trouble, interrogation or. Very active people. Yeah, people who are super active, very vocal about their opinions have been called into questioning and interrogation, and especially a few months ago, like starting December, things became quite aggressive in the revolution. Like December, January, there was a lot of police brutality and a lot of interrogation. So a lot of people would be pulled from the street and beaten and a lot of activists where we're called over Facebook. Yeah, over being vocal, saying what you, sorry, what is actually very like the level of corruption that exists doesn't shy away. It's insane. Like how can you actually call people for saying the truth that is so obvious, then, yeah. Yeah, and I think thinking of this, we've, and you might, you might know this because you know you visited Beirut and you, you've spoken to Sahar Asaf and I'm sure other theater makers, Frank, but every script that will be performed on stage has to be submitted to the to General Security to the Censorship Bureau for them to inspect it and approve or not for it to be staged.  Yeah, definitely. And part of that is also because, I mean, our history has not been resolved because, as Dima mentioned, we still have the same people who were part of the war, warlords now in power and we have had these people since the war ended, officially ended, let's say, or formally ended. So we don't have the, we don't have all the Civil War in history books. So we don't study that, for example, in schools, because it's too sensitive, you know, it's a sensitive topic. And it's so relative, like each person, depending on how they lived the war or where they were during the war, has a different take on what happened. So the coping mechanism is, let's not talk about it, but it's all the time there in every single thing, the names of the people that we see on the news are like, all like, like just representing the war constantly on a daily basis. This we have to take, but oh no, it's too sensitive to talk about this topic or about religions and sects and patriarchy. And yeah, but you look and it's like our parliament is a poster of that. So it's very, it's very schizophrenic. Napping of a president who said no, he was just in vacation, you know, and it is just incredible to see. So how do you deal with it? What you say you're working on the article and how to do theater in which is for me, it's not easy to imagine. So what do you say, what do the artists you talk, what do they say how to do theater, how to react to this pandemic in the situation or any, is there any recipe? Well, I've heard, you know, I spoke to at least eight artists over the past few weeks and and you know everybody is taking turns being very pessimistic and and feeling hopeless to some days feeling, you know, okay, let's be productive today. Let's apply for this grant. Let's write another page of our script. And then some days, you know, a theater director in her who's in her fifties who has witnessed the Civil War and has been, you know, in the theater for at least 25 years said that she said, I maybe I'll retire. I don't see the space for theater right now people are starving people don't have bread on the table and we're thinking about theater. So there are people who who, you know, perceive things this way and this is their reality and then there are other artists who say things are paused, right, things are paused, but theater is very resilient, art is very resilient.  Shakespeare sat and wrote his sonnet. And then, you know, theater back theater bounces back theater transforms and adapts the, I think people are asking very similar questions. What is their space for theater in in times of economic collapse. If there is space for theater. And if we consider it necessary then what will theater be saying what will be what will we be talking about. Right. Do we address this massive elephant in the room that right outside the theater door. A few weeks ago a man committed suicide in front of the doors of the theater and in Hamra Street. He, you know, he left a note saying, I am not blasphemous but hunger is blasphemous. And so how right theater usually responds to life, whether by being in a conversation with it whether by opening an entire new conversation and imagining alternate universes right I mean theater is infinite. But what do we do now. Do we stop. Do we continue if we continue what, what do we talk about. I spoke with a lot of artists, you know, something as basic as how much will prices be.  You know the same, you know, the prices of meat has have skyrocketed so for for people who are buying meat. If you cook, you tell them no but please pay this amount to attend a play right or are we for audiences, a priority. Will we stage a comedy, because people need to laugh or will that be too frivolous right all of these are being discussed all of these questions. I mean, I think also when when you are in a, of course there's the pandemic right everywhere in the world so everyone is asking how to do theater and art in the pandemic, but it's more about like sustainability and the form and the aesthetic and the when and and the how and and yeah but the layer here is that there people are also hungry and we don't have an infrastructure so there is no, there is not that there is not the safety where okay so the basics are there. Basic needs basic rights are there so we can take a pause and look and contemplate and think. So it's very tied to to the economy I think more than the pandemic. It's my opinion I mean I don't when it comes to Lebanon specifically because then I think art is essential. I don't think it's. I think it's it's absolutely necessary, but the problem is when when people are are being put in a position where they have to prioritize eating, or maybe even eating out once because they want to eat out in a restaurant where there are other people and, or going to a feature, then maybe they're going to go to the restaurants, you know, because it's less consuming also and it's easier and less mind consuming emotionally. And so this is the problem here that you know, I think we're in a position where we have to pick our priorities. And we don't have the release of saying okay it's okay I work from home I get paid. Everything's fine for a few months and I take this moment to reimagine things. And yeah, but that's that's the practical harsh way side of reality, but I do agree that theater is infinite and resilient and we have been through. I don't know if we have been through worse but we definitely have been through a lot. So there was theater there was art it never really stopped even during the war. People change the shape, you know, change the way but they found a way. Yes, definitely. This is something a lot of us think and yet as well. For this article I'm writing and so many of us said that we never had much. We never worked with a lot. We never worked with massive budgets we never worked with with a lot of resources, every theater for so long has been very DIY. You know, I have a few hundred dollars. What can I do. We, you know, if we can't afford to rent a space then, you know, some people performed in in other people's apartments we suddenly we're all minimalist theater makers with like a very, very minimalist photography and set and so we've we've always been pretty badass at making a theater from very little. And so a lot of theater makers and artists that I've interviewed and spoken with. I think so too is that we have been doing this for so long. A lot of people are saying we're not afraid theater is going to come back, it's just we have to reimagine the shape it's coming back in. Can I say that other ideas for reimagining? Yes. Various ones. I asked, I asked the artists, the question, you know, even if it's, it might not be applicable, applicable, how do you imagine, how do you imagine it. And actually, Sahar Asaf said that in Madrid she she once experienced a theater micro. So, you know, like very short plays happening at the same time in different rooms and you kind of, it was I think five euros to attend the play and that can be that or you can pay another five and attend another short play. And, you know, it was two to three actors with very basic set. So, I can see that happening. Somebody else said that we're going to have to find other spaces, right, we do not, we don't have $500 to rent a theater for for a night.   Yeah, actually, at the moment, I've even though I'm working on something that is very intimate with the audience in a closed space, but I feel that the need right now is to be in an open space for the people. And to, to maybe work by the seaside. I mean, we have a beautiful sea in Beirut that is super polluted so we can't swim in it so at least maybe we can be there together in an open space. And I thought it's, it's, it's beautiful to go back to sort of prominent prominent in the city just to be to be out with people around, around others and feel safe because I guess in a public space, we might feel safer right now than being less cold. It's less cold than sitting one chair. Yes, one chair. No, one chair. Yes, one chair. No, it's, it's weird to have these chair structures. It's sad. And I feel being out maybe it's beautiful, a bit more hopeful, makes us feel a bit more connected to the city again. Absolutely. We do not have public spaces. We have parks. And a big part of the, the revolution was to take back public spaces and, and I think one way of doing that, like Yara said is, right, we will assert our presence in public spaces by performing there. And then my goal is to have theater, since it exists, to experience something. And so, and, and, you know, right now social distancing is much easier if you're in a, like in a huge space and you don't have to worry about the chair that's next to you, you know, in a small, smaller theater. So, and, and then other other artists talked about Radio Place, the Zoukalk theater company, which has also been hosted their, their play Hedgings was streamed on HowlRound actually not too long ago. They said maybe the one of the platform.  I invited a friend of mine and he listened. So, so maybe that also another. Yeah, so people can, meaning of something. Actually, it's interesting because as I was talking and listening, I thought that we really maybe need to go back to basic community. It's like a collective experience and somewhere outside in a collective space, but also Radio Place is something that was very common in the 80s and the late 80s during the war as well. There was this. There was this format and yeah, maybe it's a good time to bring it back, whether or not the things go worse politically, it's a beautiful format, I think, in all cases. However, may I ask, how did you both get interested? What was the moment in your life and why do you do it? What happened? Frank, do you mind repeating what you said? It kind of echoed and I didn't hear echo from you. Maybe you have a live stream on that sometimes happened, but most probably it's the connection. How did you get into theater? How did that happen? And what does it mean to you? What does theater mean to you? I don't know when that happened specifically. That's what I knew all my life. That's what I wanted to do. Of course, the what changed with the years, like how I imagined theater would be or the work would be, but I knew from a very young age that this is what I want to do. And I grew up also in a family of artists and I met a place in my life where I say I cannot de-contextualize that. Of course, it affected how I view things. Of course, it introduced me to that world very, very early on. In relation to the radio plays, my parents both did that during the 80s when my father came back to Lebanon from France, actually. And my mother used to translate texts and they would do them on the radio and he was touring in the war, basically. So I've been in theaters since I can remember. But for me, in my own journey has been very different and I cherish those differences and I love also that I have those references with my family. What it means to me, I mean, I don't know, I think it's whether I'm on stage or I'm writing or I'm directing or I'm in a thinking process for a new play or I'm collaborating. And I love to collaborate. I love to work with people. For me, it's an experience. It's a chance to discover others and discover yourself and say what you feel is necessary to say politically. Yeah. I didn't expect that question. It's never an easy one to answer. So there's a lot to say, you know, like then I can talk for like an hour now. For me, I'm saying for children that I was, you know, my parents were like, okay, we're done. And so I would stage these little performances at home as a way of just getting attention. So I feel like that is part of that. I feel the dangers of, you know, one narrative is that it's never one. But a very important reason why I'm a writer and a performer is because it's around stories. My father, you know, at every lunch, you know, we'd finished lunch and still stay at the table for hours. After that, having coffee and dessert and he would just tell a story stories about the Civil War stories about his childhood. My dad is now 90 years old. And so he has a lot of stories. And so I grew up with that. I grew up knowing the importance of stories and storytelling, the magic that a story contains and how it brings people together. And this is one of the reasons I founded cliffhangers in 2014, because stories do things that very little else can do. And so, and I think theater, the kind of the core of theater storytelling. And so for me, they're inseparable. And so as a writer and story, one with stories. So for me, it was a combination that made me can't see it. And so one of you is leaving. I mean, I, I, I'm not leaving. For me, I think that now there's a new chapter for a while. And I'm there, you know, I don't think about leaving and staying as a. I always think about the decisions like that as a temporary thing. For me, at least I, I think about the moment and now what's happening. Okay, I follow that that flow. But for sure I'll be coming and going back because I have a lot of projects here as well if they find the time. Yeah, it's definitely weird time to be leaving. Things. I feel like I'm leaving to Australia and I'm going to Zurich, you know, in Paris. And I feel like I'm going somewhere super far because of the situation, the economic situation also. Not just the traveling due to the pandemic, but buying tickets, buying a ticket to go to Zurich or. I heard your answer, but I heard your answer, but I haven't been that prompted that. Repeat it, repeat it. Question. Yeah. Question.  The big city. All our places yesterday we had. Kelly Kelly from. She said it's hard of a move. I'm just going to, I'm going to put my headphones on. I think maybe that way I can hear you better. So just give me a second. It's cutting. It's cutting a lot. I might have, I might have answered another question completely actually, because. Also internet is slowing down in Beirut. It's fine in the beginning and it goes through. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so it is, you know, this is why it is so complicated. Most people do not do it. And that's why we hear so little because it is complicated. You know, how do you really hear what you have to say if there's only 12 electricity there, very few journalists, international journalists left in Beirut. So what we hear from you is of importance and significance. And so, yeah, Dima, so the question is, how is it, are you going to stay there? Are you, are you say also I'm going to make a pause for one year and focus or something else. Right. You continue to work. What is your plan? That is. That is the question, right? I mean, I am staying. If you had asked me this question before. February, I would have had a different answer.  And I host monthly storytelling nights. I, I'm also a right, a playwright and a performer. And, and I, and I feel like I was, I was doing so much. I was always, we're all aware that Beirut is not an ideal. City to be in. People have been leaving and immigrating and just giving up on the country for, for decades. All of my friends have already left. You know, and Yara is one of my dearest friends and, you know, it's, it's also, you know, and, and also my, my director. And it's, it's also another, a loss, a loss for me. Even though it's a temporary one and I'll be seeing her a lot and I'm sure we'll collab, keep collaborating. But there was a lot to stay for. There's a lot to fight for.  I went to New York. I went to New York. I went to New York. I went to New York. I went to New York. I went to New York. I went to New York. I went to New York last year. I went to New York last year. I went to London, New York. I went to Sundance. I gave a talk and another city, et cetera. So it's good to take a break from bedwards. We all need that. But now that We have. We were stripped of everything. Right. we my friends and I talk about how we cry at least once a day um but but I'm here uh for now because my family my parents are here and so I I maybe wish I had a more uh grand answer that I I want to fight more I want to help resurrect uh you know something in this country but actually no I'm I'm here because of my parents but I know that I'll keep writing I'm still writing I'm I'm working on my second play actually I'm I'm writing that and um and when the theater is open we'll find a way to make theater but um I don't know if I love this um this country anymore and the economic situation of a theater artist so you say artists basically starving artists who's taking care of them how is it how is it um that's a good question the thing is a lot of a lot of artists um are not only artists they're they're teachers they um they have other jobs um and so uh several of them have another way to financially sustain uh themselves some people that's all they do you know yada yada being one of them the professional theater makers etc and so uh there are some emergency funds uh that some companies and some individuals applied for but there is absolutely no state support at all um and so anything that is helping these artists sustain themselves is purely uh coming out of personal initiative and personal effort and personal um um yeah just that basically um actually funnily enough I was interviewing one of the one of the members and founders of Zoukak theater theater company and he said you know that the government for a while suggested that they would give a small amount of money to uh to small businesses to kind of support them and and help them not uh close or go bankrupt and he said what if we tell them that theater you know is is a small business um I wonder if they'll if they'll give us some money actually a thing you know it's actually a job it is it is and a lot of theater makers and artists uh when I interviewed them they expressed their fear of uh people not wanting to pay uh artists right uh of uh of uh of the theater to to go back to how it was decades ago when people didn't make money of it you know they they did it because they loved it but it was amateur theater because um people would not pay you know we couldn't actors we couldn't afford to pay actors couldn't afford to pay directors etc and so a lot of artists are afraid for theater to go back to this amateur um you know um way of theater that um where they will not make a living out of it basically and that's a very significant fear and it is that's a long tradition theater in the middle east so many who do say no it's not true you know that the work which also we are covering marvin calcine is covering the our our upstages journal our publications it's a very long history and a significant one and it is heartbreaking to hear what you all say and how dangerous it is and what complicated situation is almost like a siege a military siege on the city and and it's about survival what keeps you inspired what are you guys are you reading something or listening or you're watching what what what how do you keep your motorwalk as someone said with us here you know how does that um we are said that from indonesia from the paper moon company you know so it's it's important but so how what do you what do you do what do you read listen to what you watch that's uh excellent there are some days when i when i just binge watch anything that comes up on netflix those are very uh real days but as artwork that sustains me um i recently finished reading um uh carmen maria machado's memoir in the dream in the dream house um and it's about a queer abusive relationship and so um it's very much related to the play i'm writing now and so i'm reading um i'm reading a lot about that i'm also uh one of the things that sustain me is actually seeing my parents um six feet away with a mask on but uh going to visit them and uh ask them to tell me more stories uh my my father actually suffers from cognitive impairment and so he forgets a lot of the stories and and so i'm writing a lot of essays about memory and um and inherited memories and what it means to to have a father who is 90 years old who is a wealth of stories but is slowly losing them and so um so a lot of what sustains me is actually going to see my parents and tell them tell me stories always tell me stories um as long as there are stories we're we're around we're talking to each other we are a community and for me that that sustains me and arabic indy rap oh yeah true what are the bands well my my very favorite favorite an artist i've been listening to non-stop a synaptic um a palestinian jordanian uh rapper and um what i love about arabic indy rap is that um it's angry it's engaged it's um it's coming out of a need to speak and which is you know what us as writers and theater makers also feel and and so you know i'm doing my dishes and i'm like yeah you know like getting all excited you know i'm just doing the dishes you know this this is also what sustains us other people who share our frustration our anger at our views at what is going on um in the world and in this region definitely i think music is um i i wouldn't imagine a life without music and angry music also and it's uh it's necessary i mean uh i've been listening to a lot of uh afro funk music and also rap i i not a synaptic but taffar also is a really cool rapper uh and uh brel i always love to listen to jack brel he makes me sad and happy and everything at the same time and and uh i movement sustains me i i need to move i need to train i work out a lot as a form of meditation it's it's what keeps me a bit balanced um it makes my head very calm i've been working also on my text on my new performance because i i've had such an urgent need to do it now and i had to deal with the fact that okay i need to push it uh for a certain amount of time so i've been revisiting the text and working on it speaking of families i'm also working on the video archives from the 80s and the 90s of me and my family in the house where we were just constantly filmed doing nothing so i'm working on the archive so it's a lot of family as well um which is nice but complicated um and yeah i've been reading um a novel by alise zenithair who's an algerian french writer called the l'art de perdre and uh Roland Barthes as well uh fragment d'un discours amoureux and i've been reading Octavia Butler actually as research for a performance i'm working on with Neumart so it's like a book for a different part of the day um yeah i also like series but i haven't had patience recently for series somehow i'm too too jumpy to focus on series somehow yeah and it's uh one of the things that you know if you want to look at uh some form of silver lining um for what we are going through is that suddenly um works of art plays uh artists that we would not have had access to are now accessible to us right everything is being streamed theaters in in various cities are streaming their performances and um and and digging things up from the archives and making it available for free online and so yes everything sucks but we've had more access to art than than before in um in this country and i'm sure and i'm sure people um in different parts of the world are feeling the same so yeah it's beautiful a change we're coming too close before maybe we ask what you tell our audience what to think about what theater inspires you what theater makers do you look um up to because you as you say you in europe or the u.s people go to theaters and festivals and have access to it perhaps not as much travels to lebanon but what theater what theater makers really inspire you who do you follow yeah i don't would you i always feel uh i have a blank mind when uh when i'm asked that question it's like asking me what is your favorite book or your movie or um i uh i followed uh i follow i don't know i can't think of a name right now uh it feels like another life somehow but uh i i can say that i love theater that uh challenges me and that gives me new uh new realms to discover i don't like to uh to to see the same things uh being uh being produced out of uh out of uh it doesn't inspire me when i feel it's the same topics and the same even though sometimes the topics are pressing and then they're they're like echoing everywhere but i also feel super happy and inspired and curious like a child when uh when i'm surprised by new topics and risks and uh yeah i can say this as a state of being it inspires me but honestly i don't know sorry i just had a blank of i couldn't now have a reference somehow maybe it's will come um for me i and i mean i feel the same uh way yara does that it's so hard to pinpoint but right now i'm thinking a lot about uh amade rafael chouri they're uh they're a trans geordanian german uh playwright um based in berlin and um and they wrote uh the first play in beirut or in lebanon about um queer uh and trans with queer and trans stories and characters and so i um uh i consider her or and them they they use various pronouns um kind of the the the fairy god human of the kind of theater that i also make and so i consider them a very important figure um to be inspired from and uh i also i'm thinking about theater mitu uh based in new york uh i'm sure you're familiar with them uh i've uh had the pleasure of working with them of getting to know them spending time with them both in beirut and why you Abu Dhabi and uh in their space in new york and i was actually supposed to uh be there working with uh ruben and and the company in april uh for kind of a re uh imagining of my play and so of course that is postponed to who knows when but i i you know similarly to what yara said i love theater that takes risk that experiments that you know people sitting together and thinking if we had no limits what can we create what do we want to say and how can we use everything that is around us to say it and so i'm a huge fan of their work i'm a huge fan of them individually and as a as a group and um so yeah i um i miss experiencing their work and experiencing working with them yeah to mention them i mean about to so i'm getting closer to to the end a little bit over time a little bit more about it this is really important to hear from you so what do you say um you who have this economic catastrophe limited electricity uh not the access to food as you would need theaters closed and so forth what do you think what do you say to young artists maybe also the one who are a bit like me we are more privileged our listeners what what should we use this time for what should be the time of corona what is what what is the meaning what meaning can we create from it what should we do in this time what is of importance um i i don't know where to to begin to answer that but you know something very you know that that i can think of right now is that you know what i said earlier about theater being infinite art being infinite art is art is healing but art is also revolutionary revolutions have been started because of books and and so we must be doing something right um we're we're important and and in times when we feel so small when we feel so helpless i think it's it's um it's revolutionary but it's also a way of survival to know that we are important and the work we do is important even if we're not making it right now in this moment because of all the obstacles we will go back to making it and and and art is always relevant and not only relevant but essential to to the way we experience life and and i would never want to live in a world without it and so it's just a reminder that what we do is essential uh if i the internet was cutting a lot but if i understood right it's also um i mean what what to say to other people maybe who are a bit more privileged and in that sense or and this word echoed a lot for me and i feel it's very important uh if anything positive comes out of this pandemic that is happening everywhere it's to be aware always of the privilege and the different different uh different privileges because uh there's a lot and uh and uh to be aware and and understand yeah i i feel this this has been very present right now on social media people questioning their privilege and uh and i think we need more of that and not just speaking about solidarity as a utopic uh sexy topic you know but actually about actual solidarity and educating ourselves always towards the other and um truly and trying to understand the art of other people and their background and maybe questioning again our references you know and uh yeah who who do we always take as reference and why and i feel it's a good time to question everything i i feel that and that doesn't mean we need to stop or pause or not do arts because uh art for me is a process of constant questioning that's what we always should do you know of course yeah we should be sure and we should have confidence of but we should always have a bit of doubt i find that for me beautiful um to uh to actually be in a state of questioning that is the ultimate collective play of the world now because everyone is in the process of asking questions so um yeah yeah that's a significant and so also the privilege of being privileged right the privilege of having being able to question your privilege is already such a of course you know of course education is a privilege being doing what i love is a privilege you know there are different uh different aspects of it yeah all we had is uh don't see that french philosopher who said when he was here was about life and art and life is it was of course we now think about the value of life but now we have to think what is the value of the value of life we all know now we have faced questions more than them say artists always have done and that's why it is important to really hear from you and get that message from you because uh there's a temperate of this moment and who knows how it will be in a couple of months or half a year and so it is uh significant uh what you had to say and thank you for the update we are you're part of the world the theater community of a global community what you do is important the storytelling your plays and about your experiencing of growing up and your identities and and collaborations with european theaters of the day is something that or connects us and it is really heartbreaking uh to hear how it is that you know as i'm sure that i love my country and uh everything becomes so potentially next to the over the next if perhaps the economic situation is even more complicated and it's just one of many many things it's a truly um my heart for you and everybody know all of your colleagues and i want to thank adam ashrat el sagy who is a student also at the phd program with us helped us to make this happen so thank you adam that was a really important um that we hope for you please do stay let us know what perhaps the new york theater community can do you know to support um what what do you think what what should what would be of real help i think it's um for me it's too soon to tell i think especially that i mean new york is struggling you know um i mean and we should never compare struggles right uh rock sand gay right said that's not the oppression olympics but right now the struggles happening in the united states are very real and and i think you know when when i listen to other talks when i when i experience art that is done by people from other countries this sustains me and and i can only hope that our work does the same for others it really really does it gives us uh you know comfort and also that we are not alone in this and that we care deeply deeply care and i really thank you for joining us tomorrow we have richard schachter backed with us for what i've been working here on director as an educator editor and researcher you will join us again he's preparing a special issue for tdr his great theater magazine journal and um and also to you know try to make sense out of it i'm additional meaning we're going to take a break in august and we will see what how develop so we go from here so really thank you for for joining us and all my best and uh and uh uh and uh stay safe also our audience stay safe wear a mask stay tuned thanks to you really for listening so many have listened in also two colleagues and artists from around the world that's very meaningful for them to know for people to listen to care and also know that you guys listen to others so this is uh quite a significant you know that uh the little sense of community especially also in u.s that tends to be isolated after all it's also island just a very very important island and uh well thank you so much for hosting us it's um it's been very important and and significant to have this conversation so thank you very much for that thank you yes definitely thank you to asahara if you see her and everybody at the uh her theater company so uh hope you will be able to join in tomorrow thanks again to howl round for the uh bj for hosting out from the seattle team and the danyang and uh you guys are now it's a dinner time you all said you learned to cook again or even more so i hope you will have a good lebanese food so all my best and who knows one day you might all be in the ocean in very long time so i hope yes absolutely have a good rest of the day bye


From VOA Learning English, this is the Health Report. Zambia has one of the highest rates of cervical cancer in the world. Ninety of every 100,000 Zambian women get the disease. The Zambian government recently launched a program to vaccinate schoolgirls against the human papillomavirus or HPV. The virus can cause cervical cancer. HPV can spread through sexual contact. The government hopes to vaccinate schoolgirls between the ages of 9 and 11 against HPV. The program was launched in May at several schools. One of them is the Kalingalinga Primary School in Lusaka. About 100 students there received the HPV vaccine. Euphrasia Mueshi Mutale is a teacher. She was involved in efforts to inform the community about what was expected to be a difficult subject. Ms. Mutale is happy with the early results. She says people involved in the program met with parents and teachers to tell them why it is good to vaccinate the girls. She notes there have been no reported side effects from the vaccine, like high body temperature or skin discoloration. Mulindi Moana Hamuntu is director of the Cervical Cancer Prevention Program in Zambia. He says health officials wanted to vaccinate 25,000 girls, but he says there was some resistance from churches and other groups. Zambian and international health officials are working to end the resistance by educating communities about medical issues. Zambia is third on the World Health Organization's list of countries with the highest death rates from cervical cancer. The country also has the highest cervical cancer rate in Africa. For VOA Learning English, I'm Carolyn Presuti.


What's going on everyone? Sam here with late sports cards, we're up in 23 Panini certified football hobby 4 box break number 20 Pick your team style got Alan S with the Texans and Raiders Alan R with the Vikings shite with the Ravens Brandon H Bills Charles A Chargers Chris V Colts Chris S Patriots Corey G with the Bengals Chiefs and Saints Daniel M with the Cardinals Garrett are Dolphins Greg E with the Cowboys big baby man with the Buccaneers Jerry B with the Browns and the Packers Jonathan a with the Steelers Mark L Titans Mark T Jags Michael S with the Rams Nicholas S giant Seahawks Reese Y Broncos Robert P Eagles Shinichiro I bears Silas a commander Steve are Niners Tim T Balkans Lions Victor F Panthers and Wenshu L with the Jets. So good luck here everybody Let's do it again tend to go on the next one. Do you mind socialing those? Thank you, sir Here we go Dak Prescott we've got Jeremy Shacky for the Giants to 25 nice one there congrats Giants mirror signatures That is what Mark Andrews to 249 for the Vents to 75 Chris Olave going to the Saints Monta Adams Taysome Hill Minka Minka Fiddy-Patt Chad Johnson Bijan to 299 going to the Falcons grads on that Falcons Um, I don't know free church gaming might be there. We set up there before I've been there before Justin Jefferson Isaiah Foskey to 199 sometimes Lane will set up but probably not At least set up but some of us sometimes a couple of us will go That is my homes. We've got Jonathan Mingo to 249 I just won their Panthers I'm on Ross St. Brown Chris God went to 275 for the Bucks. I just won their Tampa Immortal of Tim Brown Aaron Donald's that is rookie Jersey Otto Michael Wilson to 349 congrats on that Cardinals Nice one there. Oh, it's very close ten minutes probably preacher about ten minutes from the shop Yeah That's right. I forgot about that.  We've got Paris Johnson Jr. To 275 It's not far at all. No, it's not it's not far at all, dude Tyree Kilt that is to 199 Jonathan Allen for the commanders Love a base and base. I got Sean T with commanders in 21 and 22 Nicholas C with the Finns Rory C with the Titans Thank you guys on that one. We are now down to 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 to go 7 to go on certified number 21 Mirror signatures Quentin Morris going to the bills the 199 last team taken there you go bills Quentin Morris and base certified stars of Jalen Hertz Debo Samuel that is Jay Jettos to 99 for the Vikings Sits and hits thing works. Oh, yeah, that is a Devontae Adams nice one here to 15 Josh Allen Go into the Go into the bills congrats bills Brandon H and last team take it Man Ravens really souring everybody. I hate it. Joe Thomas Felix and the week I was on my 2 3 25 for the Chiefs CJ Strauss Henden Hooker to 349 for the Lions He's bought Patriots bought Celtics bought Red Sox. Oh my god, man There's quarter old Patterson max Crosby 50 of 50 George Kittle.  They might actually win Marv Levy that is think Dell freshman fabric mirror signatures red going to the Texans nice one Houston There you go Texans the freakin Celtics on saying one.  It's just the bugs like that's it That's it. It's literally it in the East 76 years and the Hawks Joe Barrow to 149 cave on Tim it up So like all the freakin West dude all the West is gonna beat each other up getting into the finals Like the nuggets are gonna have to go through like everybody three teams That would be like the three seed in the East probably kind of crazy Origins team super cheap as well everybody. Let me drop you guys a link to the first origins See what kind of deals we're looking at on origins. It's gonna be kind of insane Let us see. Yeah Yeah, really good. Wow. Good Lord, man. Yeah teams like 30 40 $50 off on these. All right, let me drop you guys a link to that first origins really quick No, wrong one. Don't don't ignore that one ignore that one Ignore that ignore that ignore that 24 to go team super cheap super cheap there. Yeah. All right. We've got Scott see with the bucks in 21 and Let me thank everybody really quick before we keep it moving. Yeah, I know ignore that link ignore that one Scotty with the bucks Brett W with the Eagles in 21 Brandon W with the Saints in both the next two And then Brett W with the Eagles in 22 as well and new order came in Which would be mr. Shipe with the Saints in origins 19. Thank you. Shipe down to 23 I tried getting in to try to secure himself the Joe Burrow PSA nine. All right, Grady Jarrett and now great Dalvin cook. That's why Grady Jarrett was on the back. Grady Jarrett was on the back So, okay, thank God that would have been absolutely not even close Cam Taylor Britt 2199 on the mirror signatures for the bangles Yeah It's a nine Cameron Jalen Hertz Yeah, it's a Joe Burrow nine miles Garrett DJ Johnson to your 275 and Bass did I say both? Yeah. No, it's a nine Steve young that is Roshan Johnson at 399 for the bear space base and base Nick Bose out of 249 that is AJ Brown to 275 Do you have a case of the Mondays? I have a case of the Mondays and the Ravens losing. Yeah That's good. I have Tyree kill red is Isaiah Foskey to 99 Hopefully it doesn't go down here Nick Bosa. That is a certified ballers of Tony at Pollard to 125 Tony at Pollard Joe Burrow that is a Jonathan Mingo for the Panthers to 199 nice one there Sam's just on bot mode makes no Sam's on Bob Sam's on Bob Sam is 100% on Bob big Ben Evan Holt to 325 base base base Hi, may be picking up a the Lions in 21. Thank you, buddy Brett picking up the Eagles and Ravens in origins 19. That is now down 21 to go once he won to go on On the first origins everybody will Anderson blue to 75 is Eric Gray and base Yeah, Sam is a hundred percent on Bob motor. I Did get triple edited on yesterday by the Browns triple edit it on there. The Browns did. Yeah They packed packed me out like a fish Marti with the Giants and Jags in the first origins as well We're at 19 to go on that one everybody 19 to go on origins 19 to go on the first Origins origins 19 to go on the first origins again teams super cheap in that and all four of them are super cheap Origins origins origins AJ Brown certified stars Dalvin cook to 199 say Kwan Barkley See the T sizzle auto for shite. That'd be kind of a wild Yeah, T sizzle action. Absolutely hacks off ball so hard University That's Travis Kelsey Ty's a spears for the Titans to 299 Congrats, Tennessee 285 out of 299 Yeah For an a bot lobby, maybe she's caring. No, she does not care anybody to 149 Randy Moss Sean Clifford to 399 except shame that one game because he played against legit. There was no way there was any real person Yeah, some of them have the real numbers on them, but I agree all all of them should I kind of agree on that one Roquan Justin shorter 325 for the bills Yeah, you like it Philip. You like it Chevrolet Lawrence. There's Michael Meyer to 349 Nice one there for the Raiders. Yeah, we just went simple today. We went simple KC Royals on field Plain and simple today for sure mortals Luke Keekley Bernie Kosar auto to 25 Congrats Cleveland. Nice one there brownies Charles a with the Chargers in origins 19 and 20 We've got Jonathan W with the Panthers and Browns in origin 19. Thank you. Go man origins is flying now That's true expensive a space given played in like a year.  Yeah, right exactly what Shane did There's DK to 275 Adam feeling. Yeah, I mean a double-digit shiz game is Something wrong Something's a hundred percent wrong there Christian McCaffery. We'll let us to 249 for the Titans Yeah, it says the Tigers this man bought Tigers fan. Yeah Got Derek Henry red scary Terry to 99 for the commanders face-face and base. What's up Jonathan? How we doing Jonathan? We're not buddy. Thanks for taking a couple spots man. Appreciate that brother. Let's do a quick recap here everybody. We've got will love us Michael Meyer that is Tony Pollard Rochon Johnson Bijan Robinson Jonathan Mingo Josh Allen Hendenhooker Tankdale Cam Taylor Britt Quentin Morris Jeremy Shockey Bernie Kosar Michael Wilson a Jonathan Mingo and Ty J Spears That will do it for the break everybody. Thanks again for the field coming up. That's number 21


You are listening to the Make Change Happen podcast series from the International Institute for Environment and Development, IIED. In today's episode, as we approach the 2020 World Urban Forum, IIED's urban experts David Satterthwaite and Anna Walnicki look back over how our work with Urban Federation started and has grown. They explain why cities must be both prioritized and seen as places of opportunity if we are to achieve the sustainable development goals. Hello and welcome to the latest edition of our podcast, Make Change Happen. And today we're going to be looking at urban issues and I'm delighted to have with me in the room David Satterthwaite of IIED. David, you and I have worked for many years so I shall be looking forward to hearing your take on some of the issues we're going to talk to you today but to give our listeners a bit of background, you have, I suppose you call yourself a development planner but you've had a lifetime of researching and documenting and thinking about the scale and depth of urban poverty and what, you know, the important way of representing the reality for those vulnerable and poor communities which are often as we think misrepresented by kind of global institutions. I know you've looked at the current and political role of the urban poor federations and we'll be looking forward to hearing about that and also that you've had a long time now looking at climate change and the implications of the everyday hazards of climate change as well as the more crisis related situation for urban cities. You yourself I know are currently a visiting professor at the Development Planning Unit in the University College London and here in IIED family we're delighted to say that you've been the winner of the Volvo Environment Prize in 2004 and also part of the IPCCC team who were honoured with a Nobel Prize in 2007. Thank you. I also wanted to say to listeners that David has spent a long time working with the journal Environment and Urbanization and this is one of the most widely read and respected journals in this sector and I think one of the things that we are most proud of and I know has been a particular mission for you, David, is to really get a good number, a big number of contributors from the global south and that we feel we've achieved and if you'd like to say more about that later please do. Anna, Anna Walnicki. Hi. You are a senior researcher here in IIED and I think I understand you call yourself an anthropologist and you've been working in inclusive urbanization and I hope too that throughout this programme sort of what we mean by inclusive urbanization will come to the fore but it's, my understanding is it's looking at basic service provision in the global south, looking at some of the practical and strategic ways that low-income communities can work with local government and age agencies to find practical, manageable solutions for water and sanitation. My name's Liz Carlile, I'm director of communications at IIED and I have the pleasure of hosting us through our time together. David, I'm going to start with you, we do go back a long way, we were working together I think for the same group of people in the 70s, Jorge Hadoi, R.P. Mizra, Oma Elagra and Jack Booneecor, all names that I really remember. I worked with Jorge as he wrote every week to this group of people building up this network of urban researchers across the globe but you know this much better than I. Tell me a little bit about how that started and how far we've come. When Jorge Hadoi was invited to found a human settlements research programme at IIED, he said on two conditions, one is that we would work with and through a very strong partnership of collaborators in Africa, Asia and Latin America and the other is that he could return to Argentina when political circumstances permitted. He left for Argentina in 1979 and we jointly managed the research programme between us. And that's the time when I was working with you guys and just seeing the amount of collaboration and the amount of togetherness was really very inspiring. But what we realised is the universities we work with did fantastic work. We still have very strong research partnerships in the Global South with the universities. But we also observed that the changes were being driven much more by organised groups of the urban poor and then by formal federations of slum dwellers and federations of shag dwellers and their partnership with local government. So when we started the research programme it was thinking that national governments and international agencies were our natural partner. Now we believe our natural partners are organisations of the poor and the local governments they work with. And so presuming that was the sort of direct experience of Jorge returning to Argentina and his wife Anna's work in the local communities in Buenos Aires. In 1986 Anna Ardoy began to give advice to informal settlement dwellers. And this then developed into a whole programme of work where our sister institution in Buenos Aires developed these programmes of support. We noticed their importance. We've tended to think in the 70s that we had to change national governments and we had to change international agencies. These were the change agents we should work with. Through Anna's work and then through our work with what 30, 31, 32 federations of slums and shag dwellers we now focus much more on grassroots organisation and their partnerships with local government and their capacity to make change happen. So Anna what do we mean by informal settlements? I'm just thinking it would be good to share with listeners. We're so used to using that and we know exactly what it is. But what does it mean for someone who's not so familiar? There are a couple of terms I guess that get used. The term slum, according to the United Nations, 45% of urban households in developing countries live in slums and they're essentially settlements that lack improved water, sanitation, housing. If we take a slightly broader term, informal settlements, I guess we're starting to think a bit more about the nature of the tenure and the legality of the settlement that we're in. But I guess more generally if you think about the lived experience and who's living there, these are the poorest people in the city who can't afford formal housing, livelihoods or the basic services that provided formally in the city. These are communities that are at the forefront of environmental injustices. They might not have access to appropriate sanitation or they might be downstream from industrial polluters that are in the city. Increasingly, I think as David touched on, they're vulnerable to the impacts of climate change. So poor housing, lack of drainage means that a heavy rainstorm can wash away your housing, your possessions and even your means to a livelihood. Okay, so we know that these communities in cities have all kinds of constraints and the things that you have just described, we also know that they are really good at self-organization and can work together and develop their own motivation and their own relationships with other stakeholders. And I think, David, you were beginning to talk about that. We've worked with federations of slum or shack dwellers in 32 nations. That's a very considerable movement of people. Can you tell us a little bit about the innovation or the things that you have learned and documented from that experience? Well, the federation started in India where there was the women slum dwellers and the women pavement dwellers formed informal savings groups and then began to visit each other, learn from each other, support each other. So what was lots of individual savings groups then became a federation. And this remarkable man, Jochen, who was head of the National Slum Dwellers Federation realized the power of these women's savings groups and supported them. So you had this alliance between Mihaila Milan, the women's savings groups and the National Slum Dwellers Federation. We got to hear about this in 1990 when Sheila Patel, who had supported this whole process, happened to be in England and learning about the process, learning about the methodologies they use, this capacity to do surveys and enumerations, the capacity to broker agreements with local government. That then intrigued the housing activists in South Africa when they were thinking what should they do with the apartheid government being replaced by a representative government. Members of Mihaila Milan and the Indian Slum Dwellers Federation were at some key meetings in South Africa and what they said is that don't wait for government to support you. You have to be organized. Even if a government supports you in theory, you have to be organized to negotiate the best deals. And so, cutting a very long story short, the South African federation was set up. Then slowly, well actually no, very quickly the idea is permeated so you had women's savings groups forming federations, Zimbabwe, Namibia, Uganda, Tanzania, Kenya very successfully, Sierra Leone, Philippines, I'm probably missing several. But I think, well, a point you're making which is wonderful is there's a kind of cross-country exchange of ideas. It was a sharing of experience. Yes, and a solidarity. And presumably the solidarity was a very important part of that. Hugely important. You hear constantly federation members saying that the federation members are my sisters. So a real sense of this self-motivation, a group growing together over the world being a force for their own change. Absolutely. But also to remind us that they can do amazing things. They've done profiles of thousands of formal settlements, hundreds of cities. They've built homes, they've done upgrading at scale. They can put in storm drain sewers and water supply in their own settlement. But they can't produce the mains to which these have to connect. So it's, when they organized to do things themselves it was also being organized to show local governments what they're capable of. Now there's hundreds of cities where partnerships are formed between the federations and the local governments. And these to me are much the most exciting examples of real change. And these are things that can be taken to scale because they're sort of vibrant collaborations between key stakeholders. There's two key international players in this. One is SDI, Slum Shackdweller's International, which is the small umbrella group that supports all the federations and all the federations are affiliates of it. And they, for instance, manage the constant interchanges between countries and funding coming in to support the federations. The other is the Asian Coalition for Housing Rights, which has been supporting grassroots organizations and savings groups for decades and has an ambitious program to support them to work at city scale. The method is quite simple. They will fund six, seven or eight small local projects driven entirely by the inhabitants of the informal settlement. And those seven or eight then go to local government and negotiate with them and try to come up with a city-wide solution, not the typical local government who handpicks one solution here and there and ignores the other 120. And I think beyond the really impressive work that's happening at the settlement and the city level, there have been really interesting attempts to talk to global narratives that really shape the way that we understand urban poverty in the global north and beyond the settlements and cities that these federations work in. And a really interesting example of this is the work that the Asian Coalition on Housing Rights has done on poverty lines. So it's quite clear that international poverty lines don't take into consideration the real costs of living in cities. Just to stop you for a minute, what do we mean by a poverty line? So the World Bank states that the poverty line sits at $1.90 currently and that's the same for everyone. And so the federations, some of the groups that are affiliated with the Asian Coalition on Housing Rights wanted to interrogate this assumption. And essentially they collectively decided that they needed to be clear on what it really means to be poor in the city. So do you have access to water? Do you have access to food? Can you send your child to school? And they did a series of workshops and focus groups with communities all over Asia and cities all over Asia. And they came up with a multi-dimensional series of indicators that would vary from context to context but was really, really important in demonstrating that this poverty line of $1.90 a day means nothing in a given city and instead you really need to break down what is the cost of accessing all these basic services and the means that you need to get by on a day-to-day basis. So it builds a completely different picture. Absolutely. And that sophisticated thinking through what the context is, what the reality is, that people can get to real change. Absolutely. So I think it's great actually to hear how far we've come over the years that you've been talking about, David, and the amount of documenting of different examples, particularly in environment and urbanization as we've talked about earlier, a wealth of information, a terrific progress, of course, we still have a very long way to go. And with all this talk of the kind of new urban agenda and the ambitious goals that we have in the SDGs and the Paris Agreement, what's the chance of this? Where do we go from here? Well, we have decades of commitments made within the United Nations that are not fulfilled. We should remember in 1976 the United Nations Conference on Human Settlements made a commitment that everyone would get water and sanitation by 1990 or as soon after that as possible. The sustainable development goals are impressive in that I don't think anyone can disagree with the goals. It's also nice not to have them going over 300 pages. They're short and they're concise. But these are national governments making commitments within the United Nations and they will not be held to account. They ignore the fact mostly that it's actually city governments, local governments that are needed to drive the change. And they almost always ignore the federations. The new urban agenda doesn't mention mayors once in its 66 pages. And they are critical. Absolutely critical. And they're also a very critical part of the success stories of the last 10 to 15 years in particular cities. And making statements about what you want to do without saying by whom, with what and who's going to cover the cost. Almost no acknowledgement of the importance of the federations. We still got a far too top down national government dominated system and it's been very difficult to change that. I wanted city governments to make their commitments the same with development goals. It's national governments that make those commitments but most of the responsibility for them lies with local governments. In the same way that local governments have committed to the Paris Agreement even if their national government doesn't support it it would have been great if city governments had committed to the SDGs and then to set up the monitoring to show their progress in this. And again that's because where the change is really happening it's at that level. So we're a few days away now I think from the World Urban Forum in February and again another huge big sort of global meeting a conference is this the place where change can happen? I think we believe not but it is the place where the forum can look at and discuss together a sort of an exchange of views and experiences on sustainable urbanization and I know that they want to look they want to have that perspective of cities of opportunity connecting culture and innovation and a lot of what you've been both talking about this morning is exactly that. It's where culture and innovation and a local energy comes together for change. So this is an opportunity for us to talk about this I know we're doing a project with UN Habitat and it's UN Habitat who hosts the World Urban Forum I know we've been looking at or working with them on a project of pro-poor planning of climate resilience in marginalized neighborhoods so I know there's a willingness and a hopefulness to really bring marginalized communities into the center of debate but what are some of the innovations that we would like to tell that audience? The International Funding Agency could achieve so much more if they developed the means to support the local but the moment all the decisions are taken at national level and at international level and I watch the federations and see how well they use money. What we ought to have is a fund for grassroots initiatives and partnerships with local government in every city in Africa, Asia and Latin America and the funding needs are pretty modest. I always dream that we just need one percent of global development assistance going to local funds that are accountable to and supportive of grassroots organizations and federations that will be about a billion dollars. And that's an amazing thought isn't it? I mean we think about that all the time in our ideas getting money to where it matters and I think people tend to think of these things as huge concepts but I think the point you're making which is a really important one is it doesn't need loads of money it just needs money in the right places to be used by the right people with the right accountabilities. Accountabilities down to the people that these are meant to support. And that those kinds of channels or pipes or journeys of money are very difficult to manage but that's the big thing that we want changed. Anna can you tell us a little bit about some examples that perhaps in terms of sort of local participatory and inclusive planning I mean those are also ways in which we have to work differently. So yeah just picking up on what David said about about getting money to where it matters and the sorts of processes that finance could support there's some really really innovative work happening in a settlement in Nairobi right now. Makuru where they've been able to negotiate access to land. There are around 300,000 people living there and communities are part of a holistic settlement wise upgrading process. They're working in partnership with local government to develop a collective approach that will not only improve access to basic services and housing but it's also promoting climate resilience and starting to think about mitigation so it's very very innovative. The aim overall is to deliver climate resilient inclusive low carbon development as well as access to housing basic services and livelihoods and what does that mean what does that look like in practice it means thinking through the efficiency of solid waste management it means separating out food waste, organics and recycling for the benefit with benefits for livelihoods it means thinking through cooler housing designs it means providing green space designing green space into settlements it means careful consideration of high density neighbourhoods and how that plays out in a city it's mixed use development of this housing and opportunities for livelihoods pedestrianisation consideration of cycling solar power for street lighting and use of LPG liquefied petroleum gas for stoves and cooking so you can see that every aspect of people's lives and livelihoods are being thought through but also with an attempt to mitigate climate change I think what amazes me is I think you said at the beginning you're talking about a community of 300,000 people that is a big community and what you're talking about I think is bringing all those voices together in a kind of collaborative engagement that addresses all these issues but together Well is the genius of the Kenyan homeless people's federation they've got long experience in doing this in the last couple of months but this is certainly a pretty dramatic increase in scale and are they going to be successful? Well they've got the support of the local government and yes I think they will be successful the law has been niggles and difficulties and small conflicts but they've managed to generate an amazing consensus in this whole process and it's a terrific example to be able to share with others for a future I mean one of the things that I think the World Urban Forum wants to see is an acknowledgement that cities are a place of opportunity and what you've just described seems to be a massive opportunity Well is making cities create the opportunities prior to the upgrading it was just struggling to stay alive and it's really it's nice to hear a positive example about the potential of cities you know we tend to think of them as chaotic as overfilled with people we see them as challenges it's nice to see that these can be places where great collaborations are born and changes can be made together Exactly the point that the head of the Asian Coalition for Housing Rights has been making for 30 years Well we must keep making it So the other thing that we like to think about is where should change happen we think this importance of looking at local action for kind of global change and sharing that but where are the places that you think now I'm going to kind of close us with a thought from both of you on what is the next big change you want to see Anna I guess it's just interesting to note that a lot of the innovation that happened in Latin American cities is one of the democratic national processes that unfolded during the 2000s and given the changing nature of democracy and the new leaders that are coming in in certain parts of Latin America we really hope that those cities can continue to hold some of those democratic processes and shape some of the national processes I think it would be really great to think about how the climate finance that's coming online can be made available to grassroots organizations in cities it's clear that communities in informal settlements are on the front line of climate change and they're also starting to respond and adapt and even mitigate some of the impacts of climate change so trying to think carefully making the most of the fact that the COP meeting will be in Glasgow this year what can organizations like IID do to connect some of these grassroots organizations and these bigger debates around climate finance, adaptation and mitigation I think and how optimistic do you feel about that I mean we're in February so I'm feeling optimistic we've got time we've got time to nail this but you think there's maybe a groundswell rising behind this idea well I think it's interesting given that you have social movements like Extinction Rebellion they're British, they've carved out a space for social movements to talk about climate change to bring social movements from the global south to the table and I think there's scope for organizations like IID to facilitate that in the next few months and such good examples that we've talked about today that we can share David, closing remarks from you the floor is open the two groups that I believe will generate most change are city governments and grassroots organizations and federations we've had some fabulous mayors in the last 15 to 20 years in Europe in North America but also very much in Latin America and these come in response to the return to democracy real decentralization and the whole new generation of professionals came to see that they wanted to be mayor and they wanted to drive change but within very strong democratic accountabilities we see the spread of participatory budgeting around the world but mostly in Latin America which is a commitment by a city government not only to allow each neighborhood to define their priorities but to hold government to account for all these expenditures the other of course is the grassroots organizations and federations and the network of NGOs that support them this is community driven but as mentioned earlier it depends critically on local government as a positive force learning their capabilities and then forming partnerships where there is even joint control of local funding so again this is the importance I suppose of democracy of local government of people working together is critical and do you have a sense that there is enough of that good environment in which these kind of initiatives can proliferate are you feeling positive about that? Well you read all the stories where of success and of ingenuity and you become optimistic then you realize that these are outliers that these aren't necessarily generating change elsewhere and you get pessimistic and then you go to a meeting of the federation and again you get optimistic because the drive the innovation, the insights they bring and the development are what really should be making change happen That's really good to hear and I think it does fill us with hope because certainly at IID we've spent a long time sharing these examples Thank you very much both this has been a really great conversation it's only a short conversation and we hope a good introduction to our listeners May the meeting in February really demonstrate cities as an opportunity a place of innovation and change that would be something we would feel very happy to see emerge from that debate You can find out more about Anna and David's work and the work of the wider human settlements team at www.iid.org slash urban We greatly value our listeners opinions so please leave us your feedback and comments on our website podcast page You can download our urban themed publications for free at www.iid.org slash publications You have been listening to the Make Change Happen podcast from the International Institute for Environment and Development IID The podcast is produced by our in-house communications team For more information about IID and our work please visit our website www.iid.org