Hello everyone, I'm here to unpack the year for a pre-session to talk about that in a safe cause. We're going to go around this table and just introduce ourselves. I'm going to start with you. I have some members who have developed a bearing. I'm going to turn to Anne Rodriguez. Do you have any questions? Do you have any water? I have water. Carol will be the city manager. I'm going to start as the city along with the city manager. So thanks again for the un-serving statement before we get started for all the emails and the messages that we all got. This session is not to discuss how to take away your segment and their lives. It is about gun safety, protecting our residents and children and how we can do that. This is a passage of SB 256. It was first to its kind repeal of Colorado's restricted fire on pre-emption law. The realities of pre-action is that you want to prevent gun violence and make your communities safe. So that's what this is all about. And some of the topics that we're going to discuss are open carry assault, assault by bulls, signing, pull-off period, background checks, minimum age to possess firearms, serial numbers required, and prohibition of ghost guns. So can we as council maybe take things off one-on-one or make a statement about what you're here to do and what you would like to say going forward? So yeah, council member? Yeah. I'd like to make a statement which is that I think a state legislature has done municipalities a tremendous disservice. I usually am for local control, but it's totally inappropriate when it comes to firearms because there are very few things that a municipality can do that will be effective or enforceable with regard to the firearm safety or control. For example, starting from the city center, there are six gun stores within 10 mile radius of here. And three of them are in Longmont, where city statutes were passed would affect them. And the other three are in Well County, where no statute passed by the county will ever affect them in our lifetime. So anything that we would do to restrict, for example, the sale of the class of weapons, we have no impact other than if you consider the requirement to drive two miles, about 10 miles to squad seven instead of two miles to grandpas. If that extra eight minutes is your pull-off period, then that's what we can do about a pull-off period. So I don't think that class of weapons make any sense. The age makes any sense because it's going to be lower across the county line. Most of these things don't make any sense. The only one that I think could be potentially enforceable, and I wish to have an open conversation with a law enforcement organization about it, but I think that open carry in at least certain public places is something that we could deal with. We already have limited open carry prohibitions on some of the city buildings, and that will be expanded. And I would like to have a discussion with our law enforcement people about what it would take to do that. It's also the only one that I could see that would make the city safer. Okay, and what does make a list of things that we would want our public safety team, ZEP artists, to address again? So, Tim, do you have any statements? Well, I came into this, and I need to say less than this and more. So maybe we're all starting from this. The two documents in front of our tables represent earlier conversations about the first, but looking first in terms of technology, is this report that was presented to the Council on January 28, 2013. It's to report following a bid that we hosted in the fall of 2018. And some of the people in this room, many of them were not involved in the World Cafe conversation. It was the first time in my experience that I've seen people along the continuum of, second under the bad news or rally for our rights, which to long as the bid actually seemed a table listening to them, which was encouraging. The fall one to that was an action movie session where there were actually groups, some here and some I know who are in the next room, who actually leaned in to do action planning to turn a set of conclusions into their action plans. They did hold up. They'll be on the run. For me, the whole premise of what we did with this was to try to make a difference. It was at the same time that Boulder went through their initial approval of their ordinance on the suburbs.  I asked my brother for his reaction. And Mike's comment was, you know, what they're doing is thinking, that's not going to make a difference. What Boulder had done at that time, you know, he went on. The people who are at greatest risk of gun violence are people who remember what happened in domestic situations. I'm not understanding the horror that we've seen in the country because what followed on to this was this resolution, right? I want to make a distinction. I can't do my mind to try to move us in the direction of making the difference that the result is health and safety, regardless of age, which I did not think. And I'm not certain today. I share a lot of Marcia's perspective. No matter what we do with regulations, and I'm willing to consider what everyone want to put on the table, and I'll vote my conscience on a lot of those. But at the end of the day, no matter what we do, I think we're going to be the same pattern that the other municipalities and that is to be making statements on differences. Unless we also consider ourselves, the work that has to be done to change the culture in this, at least, we can't change it in any other municipality, and we might have a minimum impact on it. But if we only adopt ordinances, and we don't commit to engaging with our gun dealers, our advocates, long-summit addiction, everybody in this town cares about this issue, and I think we won't have failed to meet our obligation to the community in terms of health and safety. Thank you very much. Oh, you're welcome. I didn't think we're on the five-minute talk. No, we're not. Because this didn't give the likes that I hoped it would. There were some groups that came together around this and provided a template for action planning, who's actually met several times, but a lost team, and I'm not surprised at that. Those of us who were involved in helping to plan this said we're not going to take them. We're not going to carry the burden of facilitating action planning. The community has to own this. So it's not surprising, I suppose, that they ran out of days. Fast forward to August of 2019, Thousand Oaks, Dayton, Ohio, El Paso, right? That's the sequence of those three. For me, left me in a position to say, you know, if we can't make a difference, at least I'm willing to lead with my chin to make a statement. So the resolution, right, that we adopted, it wasn't going to be in any place, but we didn't write down anything. What we did was recommend, as a council, at least four of us, recommended, as a council, that the state legislature do its job, and we highlighted in the resolution things that were already part of the Colorado Statutes. In fact, if you look at it, most of the things, the Colorado Legislature, they already picked a draft, right? Red Flag Laws and Universal Backgrounds and so on. But it also went to members of Congress in hopes that they would do their job, right? I knew at the time it was just state-making not different from the public, but I thought it was worth being in a state that somebody ought to do whatever they think is the right one to do it. So I'm not opposed to doing things that we think are going to make a difference in compensation. But if it's just this, or if it's just what the other board and the other municipalities did, my fear is that we fall short, as I said, about doing our job. So I think before we pass any more laws, I'd love to revisit whether it's this set of findings or if somebody offered a new process. But with the people in this room who care about this and the people in the other who care about this, whether we come together and listen to one another and answer the question together, what do we have to do to decrease the risk of that violence for any kind of offense? One of the findings in that additional report was that we ought to work together to reduce risks of violence across the board. In fact, I think that was Bobby Rodd's comment that night. It could be addressed that together. And we can deal with guns as part of that, but there's much migration society. And I'm not going to tell anybody about the book here in terms of responsibility or whatever weapons we use. I just think we ought to take a really thoughtful approach to this because of what other municipalities did. I don't feel that we can follow their lead. It's not going to lead to greater safety and longer. That said, I think we ought to be embraced whatever is necessary. It helps us feel like we need the standard that our residents expect us to meet in terms of addressing their health and safety needs. So let me ask you this question before we go on. I voted for these resolutions. I know you do. I agree. I agree. But the whole atmosphere, it's very important. It's been four years. Looking at this, looking at some of the things that it controls, if we did another resolution and it would be four-level voting for that, would you add or subtract from the importance and that based on what we see happening to make it stronger? Honestly, that's the question you're asking to me. Yes. I would defer. I would say, look, I live with my children, both of these. Right. I'd like to listen to somebody else. Obviously. Your question is... Well, I definitely came up with more questions than statements made. First of all, I know the Colorado House, but the regulations are based on the state legislature. And I think some of those, do you think, the Democrats don't watch the red flag laws? I do believe that there's ammunition, magazine regulations as well already in place. And there's some of these things that are already in place. The state legislature just wants the point of deportation. That's just a question I have. I think a secondary question I have is, in relation to enforcement, what is the reality of enforcement? I don't like enacting ordinances that are not really enforceable. And we have a few that have been hard to enforce here. We didn't talk about fireworks as an issue. The high schools that go up and down Main Street is hard to enforce. Smoking on Main Street is hard to enforce. These things are common appearances to the state.  First of all, I do think that a lot of things would probably be open care. Because that is somewhat, you know, not every city in Colorado allows for open care. I think that's a completely different conversation. I can see it here. As far as the appearance of safety and people's comfort levels and things like that. Yeah, we've seen the folks on Main Street who are really caring and causing so much stress. And I think that it does not infringe on people's rights when they're young to do stop open care. And some of these, I thought we had that branch actually say in Colorado that we probably had. They may not be attending waiting period, but I thought there was a waiting period in the state statute. I can do wrong on that. There's a waiting period in Colorado. I don't know. So, and then I would like to make sure that I don't believe is there a legal definition of salt writing or salt writing? I think you need to be more specific to us saying semi-automatic ride points or, you know, and that is a very large group of companies as well. So, being very specific, you know, weapons of war, the salt waters I think are kind of in terms of that there really is a legal definition for it. That's a problem that as far as some of these reasons. So, those are kind of my questions going into this as far as emulating what other cities in Boulder County have done. I think we are also kind of uniquely placed outside of the community with our location standing over in Buffalo County. And then I think the reality that it's very unlikely record cars are going to be next or it's as much less in Buffalo County as there are by itself is very unlikely to be done. I think they declared themselves as a secondary sanctuary at one point in the recent past. So, those are all challenges that one of them faces so much when we're having this conversation. That's kind of where I'm at. Definitely going into this conversation and see where we're going to go. So, I think you're down considering all the very end-game part of this. I don't think that un-duely brings along some of these rides who don't have a fire on them at such speeds. You know, and again, I have more questions as far as what we can do.  By having more regulations circumvent your, you know, look in the 70s for a candy sale or a different open carrier.  Was that something out of place? This is something that's important. What are the recommendations that you have? So, as something I am dating, or it's not a thing, because I have an extensive background in mental health.  I think she had access to the way I was reviewing the case tomorrow during the time that she was in crisis. And I think she had access to the gun two years back. So, you know, that idea that we need to carry it, we don't carry it, I think it leaves a world of different variables in crisis. Some of the talk that occurred around mental illness, you know, some of the emails were referenced to crazies, and I feel like it takes me back as far as trying to break the stigma of mental health. So, you know, just automatically throwing the people who do this, you know, they're crazy, or they have no illness. No, you know, fighting have shown that about 25% have a diagnosis of illness. But there's also another underlying factor. Most people with mental illness do not do this kind. They're not homosexual. There's something else going on. So, you know, I think that some of the findings that were here, and I want to throw this work out for you either, what happened in that steps, you know, I look at what the good steps said, was there a follow-up through on that, has this work, you know, what can we do to get this work continued? I don't want to throw this out and start something new. I want to build off of what community has, you know, what people community has given, what kind of work that we need in legislation or ordinances. You know, what are some of the things that I can't ask that are listed in our community? So, all of my information, I think I, in the only thing that needs to be addressed, because the perception in our community is that we're fine with it. And the only reason that anyone would want to carry, openly carry, was for just my opinion, they felt under attack or they felt that they needed to intimidate somebody or prove that they are going against a real use of someone else's potential. So, that I'm going to give and the waiting period of two days, and here's the reason. As I've listened to how sort of double-ferringing and other teachers did in our district, they felt a real mental health almost crisis in our most schools in high school. And it was getting really hard on kids. There's a lot of talk about suicide. There, it doesn't take much for someone who thinks they're babbling a lot to be told that their person doesn't love them, they're going to be incredible, incredible depression. They're thinking along those lines at all. I think it's also called the cruising off period.  So, I am very much the waiting period and for the open hearing I also think very strongly, very strongly that I understand that the Secretary said that you have a right to be around, but it did not define the audience. That was being in the 17th Congress and kids' works were considered a something for ourselves. Because it hasn't been defined as to quite as honorable was, it's been interpreted very differently. And 2022 is very different from the 17th Congress. With all of our technology and the way we can purchase a firearm and the type of firearm we can purchase. That, for me, watching from the time that we did this open, has been talking to everyone about PR's lots of and action for gun rights and very good community effort. We have escalated the number of killings of children and adults in events. My job, the way I see it is the protection of the health, safety, and welfare of our residents. And I feel like that right to bear us has crossed over into my ability to our ability to protect our residents. Because it's too wide, it's too unbiased. So that's why I want some stricter regulations of nothing else to tell the state and Congress that are now looking to stop that different group of regulations. We agree, we need to move forward and address this as people who have issues of their murdering people and we need to address that in our country. We are now a country that is at war with itself, excuse me. It has nothing to do with our backgrounds. We provide to protect ourselves and your colleagues. And that's why fear going forward if we don't make a statement to our residents that we hear you, we understand you. And we just want you back to support. We're ready to discuss where Congress is going. Do you have our voices heard? That this is a huge problem that we'll not be getting together if we don't speak up. So I should call it free. So that's where I am. She orders do you want to address the enforcement piece? Have you got it? Thank you Mayor Beg. I'll make a list here of the things that you wanted to discuss. I think from your statement when we talk about that we really need staff myself in the direction of the council as far as what we're talking about as far as what we're hoping to pass. For us to be able to look at that to determine whether or not what our capacity is to impact them. So until we have a good understanding of what it is that the council and the community wants to see. All we can do is educate the answer to what you're going to say. Thank you. So I want to make a suggestion about how to I would like to ask Mr. May to verify I believe that this if I understood this correctly the General Assembly gave us very limited enforcement powers in terms of local regulation in particular when we start talking about what we'll be carrying we can give a $50 citation and ask them to please put it in May which is not very strong deterrent in my opinion. We'll put it in your trunk and next week you'll be back out there again. So that is I think what we've heard about here there are only two things that are likely to be considering at all a waiting period which is not something that you would really enforce at all I don't think that would be the the stores automated systems if I understand it right the same as automated background check So I think what you're referring to is concealed carry So concealed carry you had talked about a $50 sale and I think that would be fascinating to conceal carry if you would take that fire out I could you're serious yes we can let you do that are you here Eugene? I am and it is the new legislation that is 21256 and they are talking about the first offense or ordinance restricted concealed carry they now impose a fine that exceeds $50 and may not be included by the GSA does it give us the ability to do a restricted open carry at all we're not I don't think anybody is really worried about people who conceal carry permits because they're registered and they're trying to maintain permits and they don't scare you so here I can see unless everybody weighs in on that to say I don't think anybody has a problem with it just your own people okay that is actually not the point the point was that Eugene was talking about concealed carry but those of us who have weighed in have weighed in on open carry and so what our question is what penalties may be to discourage open carry as my reading of it was it was the same it was a little way and here's a citation currently we do have local ordinances that regulate concealed carry yes they may be subject to a penalty under our local code and we're looking that up right now so while you're looking at that you're searching an open carry right in the city buildings what else I know right now the constraints are you can't open carry here you can't do it in the justice center you can't do it in the library recreation centers in the city building you can't extend that to the investment if it isn't clear now or gatherings I would question city old pools anything where the public can gather as a service for long run to but the state statute gives us much broader information than that public places to gatherings to events but that's where I would touch on in terms of what the so public carry has no specific penalties so we default to the general penalty which is a fine up to $500 in person in the United States okay what's the same about the weather can you give your reasoning that question well it could be confiscated it could be you could have 10 minutes to get it out of sight what does it say about if you are opening you are carrying in a place where open carry is prohibited and you are stopped what happens to the gun okay or the justice center so to the point that you made about what and so I hope in that 235 pages you got pretty well it was pretty well defined as to what a rapid fire by a protest or a rapid fire by a weapon it was many many many many types and I think basically from my situation and how we know it's going to be a fire by a type of fantasy fire equal amount of bullets in a magazine is right so that's why and as Canada has done they've gone the other way and they've enacted regulations and not rights I believe that the shooting of King Street version is not technically alive I've only done that with a model and so that's why I think it needs to be specific as to types of weapons versus illegally seen today to be termed whatever it's worth which is soundly criticized but it's military for it and the case was made well who defines military my response was military we have changed all the time in technology but it keeps you out of this debate about the weapon used as I understand it was not an assault rifle it was semi-automatic but the other thing that I would put into resolution when this council wants to go would be making the HD purchase fire on the same assault rifle it's 18 21 or any other type I won't even say what I'm talking about I would like to do 21 so that it's just not a dispute with the two-day waiting period cooling off period and the signage that every time we have an event if we can in fact plan open carrying in the event our concealed carry in events that we publish for example and I would tell about this it has to come with Eugene there are big events like you said concealed do you mean concealed? I want that to be researched I don't feel but I think rather than discuss it here I would like it to be researched cool it's positive if we were going to enforce a concealed a prohibition concealed carry anywhere but let's say how would you do that without a mental impact for me I just wanted to research at this point can we even do that what would be enforcement carry is it just so obvious that we wouldn't be able to do that yeah I'm not seeing anybody else question the question I would like to ask for the council members is why we would consider trying to limit concealed carry except in specific places where there is an obvious reason for that like in the courthouse or in the people's chambers we already do it in the courthouse and mostly people who are doing concealed carry have reasons for doing so that I don't necessarily agree with but they're not very scary and so you know I know that nobody in this mansion can see the carry people with concealed carry permits have already been through the permitting process open carry is different and dangerous because first of all you know the weapon is in your hands secondly it scares people third it invites confrontation there are many more reasons for doing open carry than there are for doing concealed carry in my opinion so you know I think it's the most sense to ask that of our public safety force and there are two questions one is we regularly have people carrying a soul-side weapon weapons on main street in Longmont and if we were to cease that behavior what would be the impact on public safety force we don't have the answer now but and are the allowed penalties a sufficient deterrent because if both of those things are not true like that I hate unenforceable laws so when we go back to the direction we step and as far as what do we want them to do what we want to do and that was all part of having a pre-session so we can just lay it out on the table and actually discuss where we want to go what I heard is that open carry we would like some a resolution of whatever we decide on open carry waiting periods I would like the age to be 21 across the board on signage well it just means that wherever it is restricted to have guns on the library any other place that is for our creation ever should be we updated the signs because I want to remember the signs to see if they were visible and a lot of them were so faded it could be hard to tell if they were so we fix them but I believe overstatching those signs I'm talking about the dangers of gun ownership any place that firearms are sold which I just I can imagine the creative response to that that we would have does it seem different to me than between the dangers on a pregnancy rights so that is what happens yeah I just want to change the age question just on the surface level of course simply because you can see in the city council if that's easy to enforce because you see violation of that so the energy system is speeding and stops that so to the entry of the question just on the surface level I'm sure and the follow up question is if you've got something to feed on the street you've got some work open risks if we were to begin enforcing open hearing violations I think we would want to hear about things like how many officers are being diverted from an emergency response because they're engaged in open hearing interaction or something like that whether it be a recommendation to increase the number of officers on duty in particular time things like that because we want police to work right and so if we're going to give police a job that they didn't have before then we want to make sure that they are up for success in doing it so that's what I would like to see come back to us in addition to just I think several of us came to the conclusion that an open hearing prohibition because it is inherently something that we could conceivably address so that the question then becomes how much is it going to cost us to address it and are there unintended consequences that we haven't said because I got some letters that said please do this please ban all this adopt all these measures so that my children will be safer I don't think that most of these things will make their children any safer at all the lack of open hearing you know phasing out open hearing is a whole short thing so you're saying open hearing would be all in this that's the only one I think would be effective if all the council wants to consider other ideas I am not necessarily against considering other ideas but my analysis of this is that open hearing prohibitions are the only ones that would make any difference at all and why would you think that maybe only in an off period would not because there are systems that would allow the illness of one and only three of them are in law work and well county is going to increase the age but they're not going to do any of that stuff I would be real surprised if they're hearing from the law about doing background checks if they're required by law so I want to just make a statement we're not discussing anything for a well county to do but if right across the street is not enforced the law enforcement here are the only thing they're going to do is not changing the availability of the public you know to refute access to that that's it I would like to know what are the for anyone who violates things that are already in law you know about digital high so it's really minimal what can we do as a municipality people who are who don't have their guns locked up you know I think about the silver screen incident I mean that was among the teachers that we were all we had kids that were there we had you know it was looking at our the child part of them wasn't his to have it wasn't locked up in my understanding but that it was locked up so we were able to access it so then what can we do in that situation what kind of laws that we had that would have prevented something like that there's already a law like you know from the state so then they did not have it cowardly they are locked you know I think the same story law is one of the good things we are required to report to the state but our state like a bunch of soldiers no matter what state no matter what we do during times where the flag of law does not change forget that somebody is advocating for that that's why when my daughter was suicidal we had the gun out of the house it was on the other side of the continent why? I didn't even want to hear it however she could have access to something by other means but the law requires now by others to be supported now there's one of the cultural things that we could do in fact I'm not sure which institution is doing it somebody is giving away some visual church and we could reinforce that by promoting other charitable activities to make proper storage for firearms before you make lives in homes have people go home from the hospital with a gun case just like they do a car seat there are many things that law can do other than regulate firearms that might in fact be helpful my understanding is that the curings I was just getting out of that was miscommunication it brought an argument with a number of walks and there is a high level of interest in it tools and then other things encouraging or not rewarding but happy things if you see something say something you have concerns if you see something you will report it because that's the teacher that will work harder to do for other folks, for students we have the same to tell what can we do as a disability to get a mechanism that or have to be bring out to the broader you have a being created in our culture meaning that we see something or something that is right or we have concerns where can we go to report in just a streamlined fashion kind of going through the chain of the phone numbers and being transferred from there in that respect and we have to do something that is more preventing I don't know what the answer but I think that's a question that needs to be answered I think we ought to challenge ourselves to say to with the people in this room with faith leaders in this community with service club leadership in this community with our business leadership in this community to say this is important enough just if we could just do that we need to elevate the level of discussion and then let's see where it goes in terms of what are the the artifacts that come out of that the protocols that send real clear messages to the community that when you do see something here's how it's easily and seamlessly shared with people who are going to intervene and prevent catastrophe whatever we do here is no doubt important I'm not understanding the importance of things we've talked about what you're talking about are the things that are going to ultimately make a big difference and what we did back in fall of 2018 is a place to start or not I'm guessing before I think the community gave the community a chance to have the same kind of conversation my guess is we find the same four areas and I do want to continue this work I do want to have open lines of communication something that isn't helpful is I'm going to take you out or whatever email we got all that doesn't really elicit a kind of open communication for me, I'm coming in with this open mind looking at all possibilities because maybe what we thought was the answer in the end of the discussion we might have come up with something we really think about coming into the discussion so that's what my hope was in having this conversation being able to come out of something coming out with something that will address the problem without these were what I wanted to do this is what I wanted to do this is my plan but really having an open mind to come up with real distance communication this is the second thing I don't know because I have not had this conversation about having a district attorney but it's second thing the district attorney has reached out to several gun owners or gun store gun dealers and asked if they'd be willing to work with the district attorney on what kind of how could they be part of the solution so whether it's waiting periods or whatever might come out of it if this whole initiative inspires that then I think it's a big step in the right direction but regardless of what we do we're not saying we're not going to do anything but I think we ought to encourage we ought to invite that part of our community to the table and figure out where is the common ground we can find again on the kinds of things that those folks who are up every day dealing with the sale of any additional firearms can do to be part of the solution so how far they're willing to how close they're willing to come to meet the interest of whether this counts or others I'm not sure maybe she's on training so I consider this discussion basically what you're saying or where does it come from or somebody from up in the federal idea I'm just saying ordinances maybe there may be new ordinances like the one we're hearing are necessary just so we're not sufficient necessary to fish in this what's the cultural issue it's like trying to solve homelessness but unlike other communities we ought to be at least taking it on I don't think we can ignore what could be the next being a problem that scares me to death and on the best example how to do this when they said all you did was talk you know there's no no action to take what did you do for me that happens in our schools at our events I would be ashamed to say don't talk about it for years so what do we want to do going forward do we want to what kind of direction do we want to do trust do we want to put in some of the things that we've talked about do we have given direction to research, back to us in a resolution or an apartment plus a community engagement form to set up a meeting in New York whoever my problem my frustration with what we did in 2018 was that there were a lot of people there I don't even say any in any of the people out there went up from that bothers me because they bring perceptions of their but what their city would do and I think well that's great I think to start with a different question I learned to replicate what we did there I think the methodology isn't very different but let's come up with a different idea I think it is is to not end this with whether it's a waiting period I agree with you on that but I don't think it should ever be an issue that we don't discuss ever so going forward when we go into the council chambers do we want to have an discussion about where we want to go with direction to staff so they know what they have to research and what they're what we want them to do because sometimes we have all these discussions and I see Earl sitting there like and the direction is so we have to wait and this is a public meeting and we're not passing any word and so we can just say what our directions are well I'd rather go to the council meeting I can follow the issue is it on agent discretion or can you turn to the items you know the whole point was that we are out so we can discuss this we are out we are within we are out there you go I don't know what Earl said so I'm curious to know so all of these the list of regulations that were already dependent by other cities in Boulder County correct I would like to know depending on what your bandwidth is you know I'm going to research five but I would like to know what are the implications of all of these things in the past I would like to know more as far as you know get your coffee but I would like to know what are what is realistic for municipality to ask is it enforceable is it even legal in a larger state federal and state law not in the state law use of federal rights to do that but what will be the conduit with our federal law constitution in the whole list so can we when we get directions to staff could that be part of the direction but I would like to know if we can follow all of our staff most of it is actually going to be Eugene most of it is actually going to be on the side Eugene may I interrupt so it's the second amendment if they say research project to research all of those issues and we have limited resources so we will certainly do that but then we won't be able to resources to other priorities at the city like housing or other things that are going on in my office so my recommendation would be to research those things that Council would be most interested in rather than doing a comprehensive review of second amendment law I would I would have something to add to that not what you think about more than a well important person about constitutional law especially the second amendment but I did talk to some office holders in other municipalities and they said well we really didn't consider the implications of enforcement they just passed what the state said so we may be the only municipality that is seriously concerned about doing things that will have a positive impact on the community and not do things that will have a negative impact on the community and that would be my reason for focusing on things that you might actually do I would like to have an energy way in on the impact of that before we decide he's going to pass the impact of these things once we decide what direction we're going to be at we have to be in the right direction should you be ready I just discussed some of the right question is do we want to be in the wrong direction just trying to get the question answered is it what's the impact on the safety well depending on what we are asking you to research I don't know what the impact would be because he doesn't know what we want him to look at yeah I think that's what I was going to say I think the hard part is the impact I think it's before we understand where you want us to start what you want us to look at then I think it's easier for them to then say here's what the impact is going to be because if you did everything there's obviously going to be some impact but you're going to have to quantify just the mentality of what you want to correct the clarity we have I think they should go back I'm going back to the council I just been making some notes of Councilman talking about what I heard this evening the public hearing one of the women qualities that I guess enforces in the past but what I heard was that we were learning some more questions about this in a hearing kind of what the city could have done in the certain areas I've been in within the public hearing I think it's also about how that impact would have been how we would enforce that and what it would have cost and the cost would have been to the city community based on whatever council decided that we would like and then ways for people to basically see something, say something from what it was doing and not that very start enough given the what we call for the next one given the information more efficient they also heard about community engagement talking about that how we bring those to the table and how that conversation I think that's a council decision that's something we can really look at and so I think those were the two topics that we see in hearing and I think as mayors you mentioned we're working towards directions of what you could be starting for which area because I believe there will be more conversations based on what council community wants to see that they will have to be more specific on how would you what does that look like does that create more work on a venue where we're trying to buy a fire on a topic where we can see and carry it and we're working here for us to be able to look at that as a city as a whole as a community what that looks like to bring that back and have more specific discussions on how we whether that would be an impact for the city, for the city as a whole for the community if I can add something I think it's the kind of process on legalization in marijuana when we got work there and when we were able to go here's what it's going to take for the staff to respect it and here's how we're going to go through the process because several of these things may be less of an impact on public safety more of an impact on the license of the apartment and so it would say you know now all of a sudden when we take into account that we can put your license in your marijuana license and if you had you're probably able to get a license and put it in the staff if you can I'm referring to the number one saying for all of these if we look at all those are the kind of things you would start hearing from us to say well if you can deal with them in the age you're selling and in those things that's going to be something we're going to have to treat more like a license of the apartment which would be a little bit different and so the more you get on the clarity of all of this right there all of that I have a question on waiting for the license during that time that would be a kind of thing would you have a chance to see a lawyer or would that be an assumption you're referring to this period you can get it Jeff please here's a background check it's pretty clear basically if you would pass everything I would say if you would pass everything you would be ready to get the payment purchased and done but that seems to be a different thing so if you would have just come back and take a look at that it's pretty clear that you're not yourself that will probably do the work pretty quickly and running the credit card waiting for it and so because of volume and access and awareness you're not going to have any credit card for five years so you're going to have to do that its all ringing the credit card so it's already So the challenge for us is to discover that it's already a crime, it's on people's eyes. You don't show it up in the public. You don't see it in the media. It's not on media. So here's what I'm hearing for a motion to direct the staff to bring that to us. They have to say, you know, this is an important issue in the order. It's quite a timely project. I'm saying this one. We all have been carrying along, not today, including our period. I think we're including our period. This is really what we want to do or not. It's a requirement of 21 across the board, just to make the same, because it's 21 for a period of 18 or 20. And they would not decide, whatever that means, that to let people know that you may not be interested in disability or disability. So before you go, and then the direction to have an open forum discussion sometime in July. We've got the open forum to that to be fit. That's our open forum. Check it in. We're doing what we're supposed to do. Yeah, we think it's better. I think it's more than ever before, but yeah. I think it'd be a good discussion. We're all engaged in the process of something. I don't mind. So in July. In July. This might be possible. Your choice. Here's my other question. Do we, as a council, make this decision about the issues that we're bringing up and asking staff and research, would we like the residents to weigh in on the ballot issue? So we had some ballot about that. We asked the general firm that we could have a statute on the ballot. We wouldn't send you down or anything. We don't need the residents. You have regard for this as a ballot. So that is something when you bring that back because we would have a first reading. We would discuss what we told you to research, bring back, heard about the issue tonight. And then we could discuss if we would, you know. And I mean, I think at least on your question.  One, you can make the decision as a council and adopt the word censor. You could refer the word censor to a vote. So I will make the motion. And it'll be in one moment in a second. And do we really ask this to be put out separately or in its language? Do you want to spring up? So one of the things. This is pretty clear. This is all on your side. How long are you going to be developing some of the engagement process? Do you think it'll be pretty straightforward? You're right. It's interesting. Because what we fought under in your health was that the Canada law and debt was just passed or is in the process that most of those handguns that you would do on both sides. You got to talk to the United States. Right now, it's interesting which was just a whole process to help. I just thought that was really interesting to have. We are now going to be a supplier. A supplier? I don't know yet. It's the same kind of prohibition on your part. I'm sure that's right. There is a federal law that exists but it came before the federal law. There is a statute. I think it's a criminal code. It comes to this in a year. If you possess a condo, you're going to receive one. This is the problem of the state dollar. It's not a copy of it yet. It's a ban on the federal law. So is that your source of income? I was just going to say, I don't want any of this stuff. It's the same kind of bonus stuff as a federal law. President Trump had the second order where he paid bone stocks which was not very positive for his constituents either. I don't know if it inspired a great problem that President Biden would not have dealt with. The thing about bone stocks is that there are a number of technologies that accelerate the fire rate of the semi-automatic weapon. And so banning bone stocks is kind of performative because you just use one of the other technologies to get the same result. It's just the reason that I'm not that excited about banning classes of weapons because it's so easy to work around that. And I'm sorry to have all of this stuff but my initial ones were collectors because they have a fire arms license. You can sum up if that's it. So President Republican, would you do one of those kinds of things? That's fine. When you go ahead and ban that short and sell the ghost gun, but if you do dual-currency, you're going to be able to get a gun. You're going to be able to do this, but it's not that common. I think that's all that matters. If there is a state statute that you basically follow on, or stretch on, those kinds of things. So somebody had to purchase a kit to build a gun. They have to build it themselves. You can't have a federal license. You can't sell it. I don't understand. You think you're mad? You think you're purged? You think you can purchase the parts and build it themselves? Is the owning gun without a registration or is it legal? As long as you have it. It becomes a ghost gun. We've done trouble cases on people with dual-currency. We've never done that before. It's very expensive. We have done criminal cases on people. That was the selling. Yeah, the selling. So the defense allowed that to be... That's the word I'm using. It's already been settled. The federal government naturally could sell that ghost gun. So we just have to call a share of softness, right? That's what I'm saying. The office is getting in the courses. We have to get the feds involved in the investigation. Even the share of softness. We have to call the feds. We can work with the federal investigation. Okay. It's a little more... Rich? This is a very sensitive information. Correction. How do we... Are you going to leave the question of ordinance versus referred or us taking action versus a referred ordinance? Down the road, wouldn't you see what comes back to say? Yeah, what you think about this is that once it comes back on first reading then we just pull it off and discuss the language, et cetera, and then at that point either it's a file or a permit or anything. I think I personally would rather come back into your business and then decide whether or not to put it on for first reading. It would be helpful if it's a member from the community on that question. There's a part of me that thinks if we do that it's just going to just be a lot of noise, right? Which is why I'm asking the question do we want it to be a ballot? I understand, that's my point. If it's on the ballot there's going to be a lot of rhetoric between you and me. That would be the downside. My opinion would be deal with it and move on. The other side of that is maybe people in this room or in the community would prefer that and would like to weigh in and I'd like to hear... Yeah, most sides of it... Yeah. So before we make that decision I'd like to hear from the community who doesn't care about this. Do your job and pass an ordinance or absolutely give the community a chance. Well, I...  Yeah. We can bring it back as a zero reading and then we can work with public information to you about if you wanted to ask that question and maybe have that information for you both. You can do it that way if you'd like. I'll just survey. You can not be on the agenda right now. Oh, no, no, no. I mean not right now but I mean most zero readings that fall for general business. Yeah, so we... When we talked about zero reading to the council it was one of the complicated issues similar to things like affordable housing and the ordinance isn't it. It was bringing it back before we had an introduction where you can ask for us to do an odd amount of change. And then where I was suggesting instead of the e-mails given a platform where people can provide their responses we can aggregate those for you all instead of the individual e-mails that's really great to speak to. Okay, so the e-mails, would you do a recap? GBA study session. Yeah, it's about the study session. That's the council's direction. So you'll just read back from the study sessions. Yeah, future study sessions. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? I have a little remark about survey versus ballot. You know, there is I mean it varies depending on what happened in last week's news but there is a passion differential in terms of who's going to respond to this survey. And so I'm not sure how trust would be that would be. The other thing is about who I hit on the ballot is that I think it might increase the legitimacy of the statute once it becomes law. I think that if there was a 60-40 vote it says we really don't want then we have our answer. And then we could have a community conversation about how you feel that way, how you feel that way. And we really didn't address tax then, but in the meantime there would be more. And I think survey is probably that choice that works in my part. I probably can't put forward the information that we've got folks that specialize in that. That's what you want us to do to help engage with what we keep doing. So that's the end of our study session. Okay? That's the end of our study session.


PlayStation 2 because immediately we have so many distractions now part of it's great because it's made the world very small And I think part of it has a lot of negativity that will come in years to come I think mental health is going to not be great because young kids who've never been like never been Burnt into an iPad. Yeah, correct I was a landing that you bring 20 year old problems to a 10 year old and it changed the feel like it's a very different thing So, I mean, I don't know much about that But all like I do know that like I've got cousins who are around that age who've got access to more than ever Like I used to have a PlayStation 2


Hello, everyone. Thank you very much for gathering here. So, I don't know if you remember, but I did a similar presentation. Well, a precursor to this presentation at last summit. I don't know where any of you present when I did our enterprise ready to the enterprise to the open sector transformation a couple hands. Okay, so About me, I currently work at in advance and In advance being bought by red at I work at red at and actually I have two roles at the moment I'm at the same time VP products at in advance and I'm director of product management at For open stack at red at I've been working on open stacks since the very beginning Started the Cilometer project a while back I've been traveling the world a few times doing open stack and You can reach me on RSE and on Twitter at Nijaba If you're wondering what Nijaba means, it's the first two later for my first name middle name and last name so a year ago Six months ago actually times go very fast in open stack. I presented Talk our enterprise ready for the open second formation and this slide is the conclusion Which I drew? As a reminder, I think that open stack is not a product I think open stack is an engine which can be made to become Any product that you want? So that means that this engine will never be enterprise ready by itself however given that We are not going to be transforming to open stack because we want to save on money just for that that doesn't make sense There might be a reason a good reason to be transforming to open stack Which is transforming the way your enterprise actually deliver services and Today I want to follow up on this presentation by showing a sample roadmap of a project that goes toward that transformation, so Transformation What is it about we? Actually when we are going toward the cloud project very often the goal is to become more DevOps and Because there are as there is as many definition Of the word DevOps. There are people. Let me give you mine so I think that DevOps is something that has two dimension and that's why it is so difficult to define very simply There is obviously a first dimension which is a dimension of automation Where you want to go from standardization? to automation in order to do continuous Improvement of what you're delivering and there is a second dimension which is the way your People your processes and your technology are going to be interacting together So it's not a that's simple a problem You have to be watching for these two dimensions at the same time To give you a little bit more background in terms of standardization We have to be standardizing on technology and Standardizing the processes so that mean that if you want to be in a DevOps model You will first need to make sure everybody that is going to be engaged into This DevOps model agrees on these standards and that touches about everything That is going to be the basis on the way you're going to be delivering these projects there is Automation and automation may occur at all or any of these levels Today, I'm going to be focusing on the automation of the infrastructure since we're going to be talking about open stack but you may want to be Going up the stack once you're done with the automation of the infrastructure You may want to be automating the platform You may want to be automating the application lifecycle in terms of How you make this happen How you're going to be making sure that everybody is Working correctly one thing that we found out is that the agility is a key element in the process and here don't take this loop here and The thing that happened in sequence you don't need to go from a to b to see you need to do all of this all the time so in order for your project to become Better and better over time You need to be iteratively improving it by making sure that you're learning from the previous mistake and one of the thing that is very important in agility is To give the right for people to make mistake on the basis that you're going to be catching these mistakes very quickly and Fix them and improve from them when we're talking about transforming the people Transforming the people might be one of the hardest things Because you're going to have to transform the way that people think and in order to do that you cannot do that against their will people have a natural resistance to changes and Transforming those people is going to be involving showing examples demonstrating effectiveness training the people a lot of things That you need to build into your project for it to be successful When we're talking about the processes well, it's Very important that you always skip on focusing on What is going to be the desired end result and how you're going to be measuring this success If you don't have measurability, it's very hard to ensure success and regarding the technology well The automation is clearly the key as we were saying before And here we are going to be focusing on automation through open stack and automation of open stack You don't want that the to put together a platform that is going to be allowing you to automate the deployment of your application without fully automating the deployment and the upgrade and The handling of the full life cycle of the platform using the exact same principle In order to go faster Automation is the key if you have people processes In between key element of your flow your flow is going to get constrained and you won't be able to go any faster Now that this introduction is done. Let's go into the real meat of this presentation, which is a sample roadmap Something that is very similar to actual to actually a customer use case that we've dealt with on how we've We think it's best to go when you want to do this transformation When you're doing an open stack project so in this case we have a customer That has a few problems. His problems are that his it has been externalized They're It's actually they are working in a separate Sub-entity of their group. So that means that all the BU's that This customer is interactive with Do not have a strong requirement to be working with him they have the right to go elsewhere and Elsewhere means that very often The IT department customers are going to AWS and Are going to external competitors and so that's causing an issue for this customer because He's afraid that his very job is going to disappear in the near future another problem is that The Management of the wall entity is still asking him to make sure that compliance is still in place They don't want to see user data being stored outside of the authorised area for for this They don't want to see deployment of financial tools That would not comply with the specific norms that are applicable to where the deployment is occurring PCI DSS for example their Conclusion is that they need to be offering something that is similar or better Than what their competitors are offering. So they decide to go Toward building their own cloud environment, but the main question They come to us with is how how do we go at it? So That's in advance. We've developed a methodology which Starts every project with a two-day workshop and when I say workshop. I mean a Session where we work on making an assessment together with the customer. It's not in advance presenting to a customer how to do things it's In advance and the customer teaming up to try to find the best solution to the problem that are being brought to us The key element in this workshop is that the customer should come prepared with a list of use cases This list of use cases or is the list of things that needs to be accomplished By what we are going to deploy for for him and with him at the end of the day From this list we develop a common understanding of what the project is about and We have The first element of what we'll later on constitute our backlog We also think that another key component for this workshop to happen correctly is that all of the key Stakeholders for the project are present in the same room and that's for a very simple reason It's because people Within the same organization often Never had the time to really discuss the use cases And one we are once we start discussing the use cases very often these agreements occur And we if we have all these people we can identify the disagreement and hopefully find a suitable middle ground If we are missing one person in this room The agreement or disagreement will never occur another key element. Oh, this slide is ugly Another key element In this is in this workshop is to be assessing the maturity of the customer. You don't go from Zero to DevOps The same way depending on where you're from and this ugly slide behind me I was trying to make it nice But something happened in the middle Um Describe the different levels of maturity that we've seen to in organization trying to go toward DevOps It's not a rating system and In fact, you can have people that have a mix of these different cases But it's very important to understand where someone is before you start doing a project so Once we've got this common understanding of where we are at What we want to accomplish then the use cases and the way to solve the use cases start to take shape and The very next thing is to find a way to Time the project to define a roadmap to cut the project in simpler steps that will be Manageable within a reasonable amount of time and from our experience a reasonable amount of time should never be more than three months between the start of a milestone and its end Because if you go over three months things that seems to be very far away for everyone and Things starts to lag for this particular use case for this particular user story we Had a customer that presented us a series of use cases That fell very easily into three different types of populations that he was trying to address The first population that was identified was a population of administrators the people are going to be maintaining the cloud The second one was a population of developers the people that we're going to build application on top of this cloud and the third one was a population of end users and This division was the thing that Became obvious during the workshop that could be the different milestone that could be Giving a real rhythm to the world project And that's how we ended up with a high-level road map Where we Identified the specific use cases that the customer wanted to cover that we're matching XY and Z population Okay, so we defined three milestones as We would grow the cloud into Giving more and more services to more and more people in milestone one the first thing we did was Define an overarching theme for the milestone and for milestone one standardization and commoditation where the first two keywords we wanted to work on and In order for this to happen For automation to occur We needed to start with a small platform that would be our ongoing test bed the playground for admins that we could redeploy automatically as much as we wanted and On which we could automatically test if everything that we Were doing was working So we created a CI and we ensure that this platform was continuously deployed Based on the changes that we would make in a standard environment This had two goals in mind first and sure that we understand what the environment looked like what the customer would and define what the portal to access this cloud would be and To to start imagining what kind of SLA this administrator population would have to expose To the developer population because the the the customer of The admin population is clearly the developer population in milestone two The joining of forces of ops and dev Was one of the first keyword the other one was Focusing on the next population which was the user And to do this we created a second platform that would be dedicated as the developer environment Where we would produce a first application as a test case where we would develop the reporting and billing capacity and Which would in turn give us the tools that we needed to Define what would be the our standard templates which would help us define what would be the SLA that we would be using for the users and Define the user interface of the provisioning environment milestone three evidently was doing the first deployment of a third platform that would be the user targeted platform the real production environment and This was the most ambitious part because we would deploy the same environment in three data centers around the world So that the environment would always be as close as possible to the user population We wanted to add the ability from the graphical user interface for people to be asked a few questions that would allow them to Have a smart deployment of the application where it needed to be for example if I have an application that is aimed at Selling things to people in Asia it would make more sense to have this application Deployed in an Asian data center but you can add many more rules based on compliance based on what you know of the data center security and if You do that correctly then you do not need to have any more People interaction when you want to deploy a new application This platform would be the one that would be in production and would be where all the workloads would be deployed in the end and In this platform on its first deployment during the first milestone We would be able to validate the SLA cascading that we had defined previously and of course That would be the trigger to define what would be the next application. We would do so In the end of the at the end of the workshop we came up with this high-level design which is More a design of how we were going to produce the environment than a design of how the environment would be structured Well, we did actually during the workshop also provide a high-level design of the deployment But that's a little bit less interesting than this idea that we would have a single environment That would be consuming various upstream Combining them with the local modification. We needed to make configuration Additional UI etc all stored in a central git repository That would be the feeding point for a continuous integration platform Which would have the standard test that opensack provide Combined with the customer specific test that we would continuously Validate on the test or admin platform and once we felt comfortable that The modification that been made are working correctly on the test or admin platform We would then allow the automated redeployment of the development environment where the devs could then Validate manually that their application are still working or if they're smart they could add the test into the continuous integration platform to make sure from the source That we would never break their application And as a follow-up once that they are satisfied then we could automatically Redeploy the changes into the production platform. So Using reddit Tools based around open stack. We've got up about all the tools that we need to do this Continuous delivery of a cloud. It's a combination of multiple components Which go from the tool that will be used by the product manager to the tool that are used by the operations people We absolutely need to have this full range of tools to do the automation because this is the real Goal of this project transform the way we deliver it to people But the tools Needs to be combined with agility as we say before and in terms of agility at in advance. We've been advocating the use of scrum Into the project that is targeted at deploying a cloud the same way you would use scrum when you're developing an application and That means that you need to define your product owner and in our best practice the product owner is always Somebody from the customer Population it cannot be someone from in advance because Clearly in advance doesn't know very well what the customer wants So the product owner is always a customer person a scrum master and team members this should be a combination of people from the customer environment and From us so that Along the project we could transfer our skills to the end customer because the goal here is not for us to create long-term ties with the customer is to and Empower the customer to continue at the end without us and By using short sprints of two weeks that would produce small Increments over a three-month cycle we would ensure that we had result delivered and Measurable and verifiable by the product owner at the end of this short cycle we would and globe The notion of sprint within another cycle, which is the milestone Which has a three month duration? Which would be the exact right time at which to Revalidate with the business owner of what we are doing that we are going towards the same the right direction that what we've delivered match this expectation and Sometimes the market changes around the project. So you may want to course correct What you've been doing and of course this happened, but another thing that I didn't tell you is that Across the project We've been doing a little trick. I told you about the product owner that should always be the customer But if you remember correctly when I talked about the population I was saying that the customer of the IT team Was the deaf population that the customer of the deaf team Was the end user population so we decided from the get-go with the customer to Use a product owner That would be someone from the developer population and as we move forward in our milestones We change the product owner to be someone from the end user population Another thing that was quite important was this What we call the contamination principle as we want this new process to be adopted across the enterprise we decided with the customer that we wanted to Demonstrate an example of something simple that was the test environment and as we Demonstrated that we thought that we would have a lot more ease at finding people that would like to join this new process so basically you take a small group of people that are Sharing the same idea that you are you always find a few people that share the same idea the people that want to change Stuff there is always a little group that wants to do that and you use them as an example to Attract others in the second phase and As you move forward you split the teams So that means that once you reach Maximum number of people within a team which we set arbitrarily at 10 as we think it's a pretty good number to start splitting the teams You add new people to a team where you already have people that knows the process that knows how to work with the environment and so the the cross-training happened very naturally in that case and through this cross-training mechanism you very quickly have a population of Users developers and admins that becomes very familiar and got to your new way of Developing application developing environment that is As close as possible to what we targeted as a DevOps model This makes sense So in the end We had a customer that had a bunch of problem, which I Describe earlier For which we offered an internal infrastructure as a service and later on Even a platform as a service for which we built the three environment with self-service portals for which we organized the work in small team dedicated on delivering consumable items by size with a scrum methodology and with use of agility has the mean to organize the work process The result we got from that was Well, first of all, we use the cloud deployment as the opportunity to grow to DevOps second we Clearly saw a reduction in time to market for an application to be to be developed and deployed We were able to Have the customer regain control on where the application were being deployed and therefore They were able From the fact that these applications were now running on their infrastructure to produce the reports That they were asked to produce on a very regular basis it's also the way that certainly What each group wasn't doing became really clear to the other groups Once you start having your product owner There is not anymore somebody from your own team, but it's somebody from the team you're delivering to It's very easy to understand what you're trying to achieve a lot more than in the previous model that this organization was using and In the end this IT organization Became again the IT organization of the more global environment it became not any more a cost center but a place where people would go to generate profit and This change in mindset is really key because that ensure that the perception of what you're doing is now shared across the organization and as a mirror to that They also became a lot more business focus Focusing on solving the issues that the business had instead of focusing their what they thought were the internal Problems that they should be solving any questions Yes Can you can you speak in the microphone because this is being taped and does this work? Yes So one of the key success factors I've seen when you use scrum or agile in general is to actually get that feedback after each cycle So you get actionable feedback that you can base improvements on is Is that a challenge that you have seen? It's not a challenge. It's actually the the world point of it But getting it can be difficult if you don't have Customers that are willing to invest the time and effort. So, yeah, so that's a very good point getting this PO from the the customer population He is a hard thing to get and This is why we need to identify that from the workshop from the very early beginning of the project we need to have the business owner of the project to Make sure that they have people in their team that are going to be willing to be playing that role and Of course identifying these people is going to be key to the to the success because otherwise as you said You won't get the feedback that you need to improve Thanks So this can be an either bigger challenge if you're developing an application, which is outward focus In which case your internal product product owners or product managers needs to be reviewing what you're doing with willing sample set of of customer and that's a Challenge in itself microphone. Thanks. So when you when you scale up you have all these teams How do you monitor them when it comes to their willingness willing the to change? Because I think this is a is a big issue because when you scale up you you don't have an individual contact anymore But you have team contact How do you keep them with the mindset or how do you get them with the mindset? So this contamination principle that I was trying to explain in the little graph here is Based on the idea that once you've convinced someone you'll be able to convince someone else so once you've convinced a team that No, that's not the right line I went one two four when you convince a team that this is the right way to work when you make it grow The additional people that are going to complete the team are going to be to be convinced by the one that we're already there on The well-being of that of that process How do you monitor when you're in the next phase in the m3 and for how do you do things like that because? It's based on that the one person that's going to the next. Oh, how do you monitor the? Whether that's happening. Okay, or not. Well, you have Measurable indicators, which is the velocity of the team whether they deliver new features on a regular pace or not and you've also got the the people feedback That is collected both by the scrum master and the product owner Kurt you had another question What other challenges or resistance did you find in this transformation process? so The the challenges that we that we see is to get the commitment from the stakeholders It generally happens but on about 20 workshop that we've seen so far we've got two cases where The customer was not really completely willing to play the game and The good thing is that that shows up directly at the workshop Unfortunately at that time that that the first the first guy that ever did resist to this methodology Was one of our very early customers and we didn't have yet the gut to tell this guy Okay, we don't we're not willing to work with you. This is not going to work so we accepted the thing and Yeah, we spent quite a bit of time of Under delivering something that finally worked but not as well as we would have liked Second problem that we see is when we Identify the wrong people to be the first core team of the thing And this is something on which We don't know yet how to measure we have to rely on a manager to be pointing to the right people But if we end up with the wrong core team, we'll never have the advocates to go Advertise about this new methodology and give this Feel of oh, I want to be part of it too to the others Any other questions? Yes From your point of view, how should the the team the developer team manage their debates? For example Nova network versus neutron Is it should it be by via emails or cooler discussions or so We generally like to have interactive means of discussions and it will depends on the Habits of the enterprise we're working with some people have a very strong culture of doing video conferencing others have a very strong Culture of all being in the same room. Oh, did I mention that a workshop? Cannot work if not everybody is in the same room just because of the tool that we are using to do the workshop required to have whiteboards and sticky notes and stuff like that but Once we move into the project that the team can be fully distributed Or not depending on the the customer culture and we certainly do not want to be fighting too many wars at once If we want to go towards DevOps, we're not going to go toward Pushing an enterprise to go toward distribution at the same time We may want to do that later on but yeah, let's do one thing. Well at once so Generally the team meeting are occurring either Video conferencing in the same room or even RC we've seen groups of people that are really used to do RSE or any chat mechanism to do their Their daily meetings and that's works very well now Sometimes you need to have a debate that goes beyond a single HL team and How do you bring that to fruition? So it really depends Generally we start the debate via email or any other means like this But as soon as we send that it's very hard to get a consensus we call that to a stop and we bring them into another one of these workshop and The workshop is a great tool to align people because very often disagreement come from a Different perspective on the same problem. I want to solve Three use case art may not be the three same use case that the other guy wants to solve and therefore We are arguing that. Oh, yes, we should be using neutron or we should be using Nova Network While we don't have the same understanding of the problem to start with any other question Okay, so now some room for advertisement. Did you know that you can get? as a limited offer a free Certification exam from Red Hat. So come see us on our booth. Thank you very much


11183 Jaya Chhama Rajendra College Mysore I think yesterday you had a question for Professor Purani Are you ready with that question again? Over to you So my question is, what the use of shock waves present in the system Means, please clarify the shock waves, what are the benefits in turbines Means energy-producing devices and compressive energy-absorbing devices And also transmitting this process What is the function of these shock waves in these types of devices And why we need to study about these shock waves Okay, so the question is on shock waves And if they occur in energy-producing or energy-absorbing devices What is the use of these shock waves? I will actually say that these shock waves are totally undesirable When it comes to either energy-producing or energy I should say power-producing or power-absorbing devices So in general, the objective would be not to have these shock waves in situations like these Because as we have seen, shock waves are associated with irreversibilities And irreversibilities will degrade the performance of the system So the short answer is that there is no use of shock waves in these devices There are some situations in which you just cannot avoid the shock waves being present And in that situation, you should be able to at least figure out what the effect of these shock waves is And therefore we perform the analysis The only situations where shock waves are probably going to be useful Is something of a futuristic application Where people are thinking about what are called as supersonic ramjet type engines Where the combustion efficiency can probably be increased By artificially creating shock waves within the combustion chamber Because there is a phenomenon associated with shock-induced mixing And the idea is that perhaps such a phenomenon will enhance the mixing between the oxidizer and the fuel in those kinds of applications However, these applications are not at all developed fully They are under development And may be in the next 15-20 years you may see such things in practice But as of now, I will say that if you are dealing with power-producing or power-absorbing machines That we normally use, shock waves would be totally undesirable for you Thank you So, these shock waves are attached to the surface or above the surface in the fluid flow problems So, the question is on whether the shock waves are attached to the surfaces or detached from the surfaces See, the attached or detached type of a shock wave will come only when you are talking about a multi-dimensional steady type flow We have analyzed in this part of the course only a simple normal shock wave However, to answer your question, depending on the shape of the object The shock can be attached to the surface or it can be detached So, for example, if you imagine something like a sharp pointed nose type object Like a wedge or a cone which is flying supersonicly Then the shock is going to be attached at the nose But if you think about a blunt nose type body Like let's for example say a bullet or a missile which is flying supersonicly Then the shock for such objects is going to be detached from the surface Thank you So, flow measuring devices like 20 meter, nozzle meter and alipase meter They are having an ISO standard value, sir Okay See, we have the standard value, sir For analysis purposes, further studying purposes through CFD See, I think you are referring to flow measuring devices Which are routinely used for such purpose And there is some standardization involved However, we haven't really talked about the nozzles, etc. That we discussed in this class Being used for any flow measurement type purpose And therefore, I don't think really that there is any standardization Associated with the kind of devices that we have talked about Thank you Sir, that is not the question, sir Actually, to study the convergent-divergent nozzle We need one model or a specification Where you get this specification of CD nozzle, sir? Oh, I mean the shape of the nozzle I assume perhaps that you are talking about the profile Or the shape of the nozzle as some sort of a specification Or a standardization And the answer is that we don't really consider Any specific or standardized shape for the CD nozzle, etc. As long as any shape which is reasonably conforming To our quasi-one-dimensional approximation Which simply means that the cross-sectional area Of the nozzle is slowly changing Along the flow direction Is sufficient for the purpose of our simple analysis There are some specific applications Where nozzle profiles are defined for specific end applications But those are definitely out of the scope of this class For which you will have to refer to Specialized compressible flow textbooks As of now, what you can keep in mind That as long as we are dealing with a quasi-one-dimensional situation As far as cross-sectional area changing very slowly In the flow direction The shape of the nozzle or the profile of the nozzle Really doesn't play any part Thank you Okay, thank you, sir Why can't I, sir? Yeah, please go Sir, in a real gas PV is equal to Hello Yes, go ahead In a real gas PV is equal to ZRT Sir, actually what that Z is Means, sir What does it mean? That is compressibility factor Okay Don't write it as PV equals ZRT Because that gives a totally odd picture For an ideal gas we know PV equals RT Or PV by RT is one Okay So for a real gas PV by RT PV by RT is not one And for some reason it is given the symbol Z And called a compressibility factor In fact Z is simply a ratio of PV, R and T There is no compressibility of any kind involved Compressibility means you are increasing the pressure And studying the change in volume There is nothing of that sort It's unfortunate that it is called a compressibility factor And it is used as a dimensionless number To plot properties of various fluids As a function of dimensionless temperature And dimensionless pressure So that chart is known as the compressibility chart Over It's a last one thing, sir Actually in this course I learnt a lot from your centre, sir That's why from this centre we tell to Thank you for this one, sir Over and out Thank you Over and out 1148 Krishna Institute, Ghaziabad Over to you What is the difference between a reversible adiabatic and adiabatic process? See and what is the question is What is the difference between a process Which is reversible adiabatic And a process which is only adiabatic We have defined an adiabatic process As work transfer only So this means there is no heat transfer DQ is 0 A reversible process We have defined it in detail At something which can go forward and reverse By retracing the path in the complete detail Reproaching all the interactions in complete detail In such a way that when it is executed In the forward direction And in the other direction Bringing the systems involved back to their original state No trace of the processes having taken place Is ever left, is ever available That is the reversibility And after developing second law of thermodynamics This comes to a situation that For a reversible process DQ should be not 0 DQ should be equal Ds should be equal to DQ by T This is for a reversible process So if DQ is 0 It is adiabatic If DQ by T equals Ds Then it is reversible So if you have reversible and adiabatic That means not only is this equation applicable But this equation is applicable So if you have adiabatic And reversible That means since both these equations are applicable This also means Ds equals 0 So adiabatic and reversible means isentropic Adiabatic by itself does not mean isentropic It only means DQ equals 0 Over to you Thank you Thank you 1 0 4 0 College of Engineering Pune Over to you Good morning sir Good morning So the query is regarding Thermal power plant K study of a thermal power plant of small size Okay In this power plant The flow through the turbine Same flow through the turbine is almost double Than the rated quantity Now in this There can be two reasons One is that in general Which is saying that Sailing through, internal sailing through the turbine And Flow through the model Keeping these two things apart What could be any other reason Which to be seen specified Difficult to say But what does this have to do with thermodynamics You have a small power plant And you say that the turbine flow rate Is double the design flow rate In principle I cannot say that there is anything against it But generally this does not happen And what does it have to do with our thermodynamics course That is something which I do not understand now Over to you Sir means His question sir is related to thermal power plant Basically Through the thermal power plant The question required more than electricity One minute So we want to Run this plant As per Means the unit rate As compared to electricity See you can Extract some more power from a turbine But you I do not think you will be able to ever Double the flow rate through that turbine You are far away from the normal Design and operating condition And Even at off design conditions What happens to the turbine and how it behaves Depends significantly On the internal details of the turbine Which we are not looking at During our course in thermodynamics Remember our turbine was us For us was simply a black box All that we said is The inlet enthalpy is this Exit enthalpy is this Flow rate is this This is the power output you should get That is it We stop there Over to you We want to study this So give the guidelines No You attend the course in energy conversion Or steam turbines And then you will get more than guidelines For this 1002 Amal Jyoti Kottayam Over to you Yes go ahead Sir we have come to understand now that Adiabatic constant volume process Or adiabatic constant pressure process Or adiabatic isothermal process Can also take place Yes But these type of examples are not Worked out in conventional text books Right Can there be a source for materials For our students on this matter Yes see I have noticed And it has been brought to my notice That students have And many teachers also have a mental set Which means adiabatic Quite often when I ask What is adiabatic The answer is pv raise to gamma is constant We have seen during our exercise That adiabatic is just dw only Or dq equals 0 And for If for you to reach from adiabatic To pv raise to gamma is constant There are a number of assumptions Which you have to make Pv raise to gamma constant Is a very special case And as you said It is very nice that you have appreciated That an adiabatic process Can also have Can also be a constant volume process Or a constant pressure process Or an isothermal process Unfortunately The so called standard text books Do not have Many examples Or hardly have any examples Of this kind I think I have been able to Put some examples Of these kind in the exercise sheet But since we are teachers of Thermodynamics It is for us to set up Examples of this kind For our students And give them additional exercises Along with whatever are there in the books That is how we have created These exercises And I think you should also create your own It is not very difficult In fact one lacuna Which I find in these exercises Is there is hardly any exercise In which Data e is significantly different From data u And I have noticed that And I will try to include now Some exercises in which Along with data u You have even data ek Or data ep which is significant I think the only exercise Or one of the few exercises In which data u Apart some component other than Data u is significant Is the air gun and bullet problem I think somewhere in the first law 1.7 And also the Last problem in combined first and second law CL6 That is somebody throwing a sack of Sack of sand on to a professor That one Over to you I have got one more question in psychrometrics The question itself See at a particular temperature Dry air can hold Maximum certain saturation level of water What is the property Why the air has got certain affinity to water And what limits the maximum quantity Saturation level of this water At a particular temperature So the question is regarding What kind of Or what What is the affinity Of putting Water vapor into air There is no such thing You can put any vapor into Or any vapor into air The only thing is What you have to worry about is There is a saturation pressure corresponding To the existing temperature And as long as you reach that saturation Pressure you cannot put in anything More if you want to put in anything More you have to raise the temperature So if you want to have One atmospheric Or a pressure of one atmosphere You will need to raise the temperature to 100 degrees So similarly Instead of water vapor If you want to put in any other vapor Of any other fluid Then corresponding To that vapor pressure You can put in as much of vapor of that fluid So let us say it is 30 degrees C And instead of water There is some other refrigerant You want to put in Just check the vapor pressure of that fluid At 30 degrees C And that is the maximum amount you can put in So what you can put in depends on the saturation Pressure corresponding to the existing temperature Thank you My question is to Professor Gayithande Sir you have mentioned Adiabatic process can happen At constant temperature Sir in that case Will it be a quasi static process Can we consider the equation PV raise to gamma is a constant Again you are confusing PV raise to gamma Process means dq equals 0 Constant temperature process It self means At least along an isotherm All states are defined So moment you say constant temperature To a significant extent You have already made an assumption That it is quasi static Because at every stage Temperature is defined So an adiabatic process Only means no heat interaction Of any kind It can be quasi static It can be non quasi static Keep in mind As your colleague has earlier said That adiabatic means dq is 0 Throughout the process The process may follow any route While maintaining that Constraint So it can be constant volume Constant pressure Constant temperature It can be PV raise to gamma is constant It can be PV raise to gamma Into V equals constant Provided you arrange the other interactions accordingly Some of these things will be possible Because remember Some of these will be impossible Because for an adiabatic process The second law says that The process can take place Only in a direction In which the entropy increases So long as you select a direction In which the entropy increases Or at most does not change You can execute that process But an adiabatic process In which you Expect that the entropy decreases That will not be allowed By the second law of thermodynamics And this will be An impossible process An unrealistic process So although we say For example You take a fluid In a rigid container You take I can stir it That is a work interaction The Suppose it is a gas Temperature will rise It is an adiabatic constant volume process And we have solved an exercise Based on that But you say It is an adiabatic constant volume process In which temperature should reduce By some means That will not be possible Because the temperature reduces That is the simple entropy Relation And hence For an adiabatic constant volume process A process in which we expect the temperature to reduce Will not be allowed Because that is an unrealistic process So we will close this session now


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Hello viewers, it's Kaye Felix here and I welcome you to my YouTube channel Kaye Felix Inspire. I'd like to say a very big thank you to all of you for the support and the contribution you are giving to this channel. If you are new to this channel, please do not forget to subscribe and hit the bell icon so that you get notified whenever I post new videos. Stay tuned for more details in this report. I don't know people in Kastodi, the right one is here. So yes, just before we have an update, the case came up today and we started a trial. Like we had expected. The state produced two witnesses. But the second witness came with the evaluation somewhere. We thought that we should interrogate him after we have the examination of the document that he produced. You know a trial in the subordinate court is a trial by ambush. You don't know what documents your friend brings so they brought the evaluation report which of course we were quite familiar. So we just wanted to ensure that we get instructions and consult before we come and process them into witness. So the progression for us is very exciting. I think we will finish this court in record time. Because now we've been given two dates in December. We are coming here on the 21st and 22nd December and we intend to come and possibly finish the case for the state on the 10th of January 2023. Well thank you very much. Mine is basically to express sadness at the headlines that we are reading now in the tabloids. Reporting that for example the Minister of Justice said the debate over the audit of the defense force is futile because government has already made up its mind and it will proceed. In other words the Minister of Defense is saying they don't mind undertaking activities with impunity even when they are illegal. So to that effect they are just finding the fact that even when the auditor general was separated by law was never involved in that process because one in state house or community house gave a directive that private firms to which we know he had interest and we can speculate he still has interest should audit this defense force. We feel that such statements are reckless and we only want to warn that the day of reconning is coming. It may not be today or tomorrow but to surely come. Misaka in the HDMA one day will have to account for all the actions, decisions and things that he has done and he will do while he is in office. Same applies to Onobu Rufuma, same applies to Onobu Umsokotwani, same applies to Secretary of Treasury, same applies to all officers who are involved in wanting our security secrets to be exposed, reckless like that just because people are interested in benefitting through that process. That impunity we condemn and we don't expect the minister of defense especially of the standing of Rufuma. Onobu Rufuma is more experienced when it comes to issues of governance than his president because he has been in parliament for close to 20 years and therefore it is sad that he will begin to participate in the process of justifying such illegalities. Thank you very much and God bless, have a good day.