Okay, so welcome everyone to our third and final day of the Dreamweavers conference Helen, Sophie and I will be taking you through the day today and our first presentation is by David Stein This will be followed by a presentation from Toby after which we'll have a break and Then we'll hear from Christo and Suhasini before lunch In the afternoon we have Lalit, Andrea and Luigi before we close off the conference So our first presentation by David is on the Greenbelt land use plan David is a town planner from New York who has spent much time in India and Oroville he has a masters in urban and regional planning and More than 30 years of professional involvement in urban and regional development transportation planning and comprehensive planning He is a partner at Benzinger Stein associates and in 2015 he prepared the Greenbelt Development Plan and Greenbelt land use plan for Lavineer Welcome David over to you now Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be here again in Oroville, even if only electronically And I hope that what we have to offer will help in your deliberations as to how to Further the development and protection not only of the Greenbelt But we address a number of issues that are important to go beyond that So with that this plan was actually put together in between the years 2011 and 2013 So it's almost ten years old at this point and Obviously there is going to be some information which is no longer Correct because of the change in times and dates But we will deal more with principles and we will deal with actual physical realities on the ground The idea of the Greenbelt plan was as we developed it to base ourselves on ecological principles on how to best manage and protect the land so that it could serve its function as a Greenbelt We traveled through much of the Greenbelt We've got to know a lot of the land there and of course we've got to know a lot of the people who are involved in planning and management within town hall in Lavineer and Oroville as a whole and It was as we got to know the area it became quite clear that there was a Significant range of problems that would have to be looked at from an environmental point of view I Would mention that my partner in putting this together my wife Akvastine is also a professor of landscape architecture now retired who Has done extensive planning in environmental issues and ecological issues as well So we worked together on this She did a lot of the mapping. I did a lot of the thinking that went into the text of the plan I would mention also that it would be helpful if Orville would put the plan back up on the internet So it could be read by those who attend to see what we were trying to do because my slideshow will be a little bit Quick and going over some of the points. You can ask me questions, of course afterwards, but For a more detailed understanding of what we had attempted to show I think it's best you actually read the document It is available on the internet. I believe if not to find out where you can get it We felt that the green belt planning as much as it was recording in progress as much as this was supposed to be a A green belt The idea was to protect as much the forest and the land and the water as was possible Following ecologically based principles These included such things as maintaining the integrity of patches and corridors where wildlife and plant materials could grow naturally and extend their their Their hold on the land itself we realized that The green belt was a good deal larger than the land area of land owned by Auroville And so we've made some suggestions as well as to how and to approach the process of Expanding the green belt not only on Auroville owned land, but on land beyond Auroville Which I will get into a little later Initially we looked at the issue of How do you maintain the environment given the fact that this is an area which In which water is the critical element I Was fortunate enough to have most of the papers that zeal bullico produced over the years when he was working with water harvest and the And It became quite clear to me that there is a very very very serious issue of water in the In the bio region, there's only one source of water as As you all know and that is rainfall and we try to capture as much as we can and keep as much as we can But I would caution please go back and listen carefully To what Julio had to say yesterday because there are some important lessons in that Which I would hope People will be able to not only take in to account, but actively help Forward the lessons that we have learned when we started planning We realized that All the water in Auroville is rain water There is no other source. There's no river that provides you with fresh water. It's stored on or in the land and And And this water source the aquifer that supplies Auroville Covers not only Auroville, but the entire bio region Which extends over more than 700 square kilometers and has many many many villages and All of whom share the same water source so One thing that became very clear to me was with Auroville sitting at the very highest point in the landscape if There is a shortage of water the first place that will feel that shortage will be Auroville Because you're the highest point therefore the water is furthest from you and it begins to lower the water table and As everybody has pointed out more than once The problem with the water table is that there is a growing demand for water for for agricultural purposes for industrial purposes for domestic purposes and There is more being pumped out today than is being actually returned by way of rainfall So one of the functions of the green belt is to maximize the amount that can be stored within the Auroville area But that's only a small portion of the total demand that can be met from Auroville's boundaries and My important lesson if there is one is that Auroville will have to figure out a way to much expand its integration within the broader bio region So that everybody is trying to do the same thing. It is not just Auroville's problem It is the entire bio region that has to deal with the water issue and I would hope that as we proceed You will find that there are ways in which you can reach out and I will talk about some of them a little later on when we when we first started we had a Fairly idealized plan. It was handed to us and said this is this is what Auroville looks like according to the master plan This master plan was prepared basically according to the ideas of Designers and thinkers who were not trained in Environmental planning they were trained in architecture. They were playing trained in to some degree in city planning but not in terms of environmental planning at the same time and so The first thing we had to do was to analyze what in fact was going on on this ground and How could that be used? best to further the goals which were from the perspective of the green belt to maximize its long-term viability as a as a resource for Auroville and the broader bio region The plan itself Suggested various types of land uses around it showed the various rivers and streams and water bodies and and suggested for instance that It would be very much wiser to put a 10 meter buffer along all the water channels To maximize their ability to capture and retain runoff That we would We would enhance the force where we could we have a list of areas which we think should be prioritized for Acquisition within the green belt and some even beyond And how that is done is part of what we will talk about a little bit later the Is fairly straightforward. I won't go into a lot of detail because it's it's a little hard to read When you're sitting back there and looking at a screen again, please do make the effort if you can to get hold of a PDF of the Plan and read it quietly in your own time on your own computer, and I think it will make much more sense After you've absorbed everything that you have heard and seen in the last couple of days We obviously have had to leave the villages to To their own devices and one of the things that needs to be done is to build a better relationship for the villagers so that they understand also the importance of protecting the The green spaces that they have and how they integrate themselves into the world that is The Oroville master plan as I mentioned a little earlier One of the first things we did was to try to identify areas where water protection I'm sorry to interrupt you. I don't know if you're trying to change slides, but we don't see any change So are you still on the first slide or are you changing on the other screen? This is the slide of the water protection priorities. You see that now Yes, we see that. Is that the slide that you were talking about the slide. I'm talking about. Yes. Thank you very much I had a doubt Okay, no, that's fine As you can see there's a great deal of green On this map green that does not necessarily exist in any special form of reality But what we are suggesting is these are areas that need to be Either acquired or somehow protected through agreements with the owners of the land To in order to maintain the supply of water for everyone These are streams. These are areas where we think that by minimizing the runoff from these areas you can Do your best to retain the water pressure of fresh water within the coastal shelf in particular Which Was described in some detail yesterday in Julio's talk Reforestation where it is possible a Buffer is an area that is simply not being built on is protected It may be in It should be in materials that will hold the soil and the water You can see a number of these are stream beds where you've had canyons in the past You want to avoid further erosion to the degree that it's possible retain the soil retain the water and Use that as a way of defining the development these are the sort of the The boundary layers between different developments need to be thought of and Protected where you can The other part of this and I will get into it a little bit further is working with your neighbors The owners of adjacent lands that are not within ownership of oil To demonstrate to them the value of this approach and help them figure out how they can best Follow the same principles Now I'm going to switch a little bit here and here is a table. I hope will come up Takes a little while for this machine to Switch over I'm not seeing it yet on your screens. Why it hasn't switched over. I'm not sure why my apologies for my Less than perfect technical expertise in this. Are you managing the heat? I'm trying to switch to slide number six, which you still have the water protection Priorities showing and I'm trying to go to the next slide and it's not showing So can you try to click on the water protection on the slide that you see now to see if it's gonna bring the next one Just Changing try to just press the dawn down arrow of your keyboard or the space bar and that should maybe Bring up the next slide Oh, there it goes, that's better. This is what I know it shows it on my screen, but it doesn't Yes, that's because you're changing on one window, but it doesn't change on the other Well, I'm not sure why it's not You need to select the right window the correct window. Sorry Yes, I did it And then just try pressing the down arrow of your keyboard Or the space bar, but otherwise you can just exit the screen sharing and show us the other window where you're able to Change the slides and that's fine David yeah, I understand that you're frustrated. Can you just exit this screen sharing just like you did before? Okay, and then you show you you share this the window On which you see the slide changing you share with us the other window on which you see the slide changing I'm saying screen share So I just see the slide. I saw your pointer going on this window. So bring the pointer back on the window. Can you? Yeah Yeah, and click on it see if it works. Yeah, okay There's the one I want Okay I'm assuming you can see the whole thing although I've got my screen sharing We can see a table Yeah, yeah, we see the whole thing work on the table What we tried to do was look at a series of types of land and the kinds of Treatment that we felt was important to apply to each classification of land They are the types of land here are water courses and water bodies, which I've discussed a little bit of the farms The woodlands and tree plantations that is either Forest for the sake of forest or areas which have been which are growing trees for commercial use and Finally recreation Because there is a good deal of recreation within the forest and areas but it's treated somewhat differently from Pure forest because there are trails there are people who go through it and We asked ourselves How how should different classifications of ownership affect these different groups So we have for instance land that Oroville owns in the green belt We have lands that Oroville owns outside the green belt There's quite a bit of land outside the green belt which Oroville has acquired over the years We have privately owned land within the green mill belt meaning land owned by non-Orovillians and Then we have land owned by non-Orovillians outside the green belt Which of course is the majority of the land and then a final category is the poroam bulk the essentially stream beds that are used for common access to For animals and travel and water Wending their way through naturally through the Through the area that we're talking about Proposed essentially building full buffers along everywhere we can Waterways and water bodies don't change them In the sense that you're not going to convert them to dry land You're not going to convert them to buildings you protect them with buffers and you keep it that way And you have a group of stewards who can Play a very active and constructive role in helping make sure that that happens Part of the issue that I saw and is that there is still a lack of communication Between Oroville and the villages. I hope some of that has changed over the years Because I I Have not Been there now for several years and Maybe there is some more extensive interaction between Orovillians and the surrounding villages But a lot of what I think is most important about Oroville is that it stands as an example For the neighborhood and I by that I mean the bio region and obviously the impact is greater the closer you are To reach out Orovillians can reach out. They have done some in the past There has been some remarkable work done in for instance restoring The traditional tanks the areas around Oroville But it needs to be expanded extended and turned into a program because The we're dealing with with one Terrible fact that is dominates everything in my thinking that is global climate change The little that I have read Suggest that South India is going to become an extremely difficult environment Rainfall is going to be Intensified when it occurs, but there will be also lengthy periods of drought temperatures will go up significantly and We know that Agricultural methods that are used right now tend to over draw the water and we need to figure out how to best share that water as as a common resource not as an individual resource one of the great problems in Modern law is Fact that if you think of well into your land you can suck up as much water as you can suck up Using your well now that water comes from somewhere.  It's flowing within the aquifer in too many pumps In the surrounding area can deplete your aquifer just as much as you can deplete someone's else's and building a program whereby there is a common management that Helps people learn to take the appropriate amount and to restrain themselves from overusing water is One of the things that I would hope would come out of This whole discussion of how the green belt is developed and managed in the future I will let people read this at more leisure. I'm not going to try to describe it at great length other than to say It's a start there's a lot that has to be It's a start it's a program which can be developed I have talked at some length with Ram from the sustainable livelihood Institute and he has agreed that he would be very anxious to put together a program It could be used to build and reach out into the bioregion using this concept as a basis for teaching farmers landowners villagers how to be more careful stewards of their own land and resources Now I'm going to switch slides. We'll hope that that will do something here Forgetting how I switched Next One of the things that I wanted to show here it also is What do you accomplish when you build these? buffers in terms of Various issues whether it's water quality biodiversity productive soils How you can improve the productivity of the soil? Through the use of the buffers We go on to the again the treatment of the water will will Reduce the erosion and improve the quality of the water Each of these functions of the buffers is you'll see why they're so important they slow The water entrance and infiltration they trap pollutants in surface runoff they trap pollutants in surface flow They increase the habitat areas it improves Biodiversity it Increases the productivity of the soil because you have not only watered it, but you've added a biological material to the content of the soil as well by building the buffers and And In addition to that let's see what we can get here and then finally we have here The buffers will help increase the economic value of the land in many ways and And provide a good deal of protection from wind energy They will serve to modify the mic the micro climate in other words Oroville enjoys a much better Climate than does the surrounding barren land? You only have to go out and see the difference a little bit on a large scale the same thing was done with New Delhi Where the temperature inside New Delhi tends to be five to? As much as five degrees Celsius cooler on a hot day than the surrounding farmland Just because of the tree planting you've seen that there Produces economic products by building the buffers you can harvest some of the material from the buffers And in general you improve the quality of the property people prefer to live near areas that are comfortable And it finally It serves as a as a protective barrier from the wind It helps Natural control of pests Of course it reduces the flooding and it creates a much safer environment overall Now here we go Oops, excuse me. I'm sorry. I'm not quite I Don't want to stop that screen sharing. I want to go back to it. Oh dear So you need to restart the screen sharing now So it looks like Yeah, you can stay on this screen if it's easier for you. It's okay. Don't worry about it Hey, I'm sorry Just I just want to do you can see this now We've marked areas that we say our priority acquisition areas for water protection You can see them laid out there are areas which are owned by Auroville There are areas of porambok and then there are areas which As as mentioned earlier need to be Managed through a discussion with the landowners and entities government entities surrounding Auroville to see to it that you protect the water bodies that you Which that people are encouraged to build the kinds of Protective buffers That Auroville has been building and you have the ability to I think Demonstrate this very nicely and very quickly Through bringing people in to see what you've done explain it to the farmers of course that requires a team Who it has been trained to do this and this is where I had as I mentioned earlier approached from at the sustainable livelihood Institute to Help in the training process and I would be more than happy to help Put together a grant proposal or whatever is needed so that you can actually carry out some of this Work of explaining why the green belt Why the buffers? Why the water protection to people who normally think in terms that are much smaller than a region and I guess the final word I would say is Okay, you can see what I've got here I just want to a word of caution for me as a planner with a fairer amount of experience over these things plans are First of all, they are made for a specific point in time That point in time lasts only a short period of time and then things change so that Plans have to constantly be updated They cannot be fixed and held immutable because the world around us is not fixed and immutable The first thing I was taught in planning school is everything is connected to everything else anything you do will have an impact somewhere else and You don't want to Ignore that fact by thinking that once you have designed and built something. It's going to stay that way It's going to have an impact on other things around it And you need to plan for those impacts and understand what they are and decide whether you really want To do the things that you're proposing to do after you have examined what the potential impacts are and Then a couple other words of caution I don't believe that there is a quote solution unquote to every problem Solution sounds like it's something final and fixed and immutable It's not the world is constantly changing our plans have to change and adapt To meet the changing situation So I have even suggested that the word solution should be abolished from the English language as it being meaningless And the same thing with the word control. We don't control our environment. We don't control our lives We try to manage those best we can Because the environment in which we live Including ourselves is a series of interlinked Very complex systems and everything you do has multiple impacts on other things some impacts are big some are very small Some are important some are not important, but you need to understand what they are before you can do a good job of planning and building and The way you understand is you set up monitoring systems So that you know what is happening and it gives you the opportunity to periodically revise your plans and your actions according to what the actual results on the ground were often when we build something we think we've done a certain Constructive Solution to a problem and it turns out it's just created a problem somewhere else We need to know that and we need to adjust those plans so that The negatives are managed as well as we can and We do not lose the benefit of the good work that we've done if we're too rigid if we try to stick to something that is it is Fixed in time the plan says oh this is what it's going to be in 2025 and nothing is ever going to change It won't work already the the master plan for Oroville is Partially out of date of course it is it's 20 years old It's time to update that plan and to rethink and So the purpose of the Greenbelt plan was to provide a series of Suggestions on how to guide yourselves in the process of Updating the plan looking at it from an environmental point of view as well as a physical point of view in terms of buildings and roads and so on look at the water Look at the need to manage the the planting materials To handle the agricultural situation as well as possible to see to it that there is water shared throughout the bio region This was the purpose behind the Greenbelt master development plan was to show how you could do this in a way that could be form the basis of a Of a method of managing the bio region And it will give you the opportunity to To become shall we say? Truly the city that the world needs Because it is reaching out it is showing that it isn't just for the Oravillians to Live happily or a villain as an example and is willing to share and teach That would be my hope And with that I will say thank you and I will entertain any questions you might have Thank you very much David So Aditi is gonna handle the question and Stefano, can you show him the room cool? All right David you can stop the screen sharing also Okay, I will stop the screen sharing when I'm using two screens. I have a little Okay, I'm over with screen sharing and now I can see you all and You can see me. I hope Thank you David. My name is Raj Nice to meet you Raj. Thank you one of your last point I take it up To updating the master plan as you as you put in in the spirit of that How do you see the crown corridor? could influence I Don't want to say solution could influence some of the issues You know, we have like you're talking about Water and also how does it sort of see in your? Yeah, how do you view this as a corridor as a service corridor to the green belt and by origin beyond so I'd like to hear your thoughts on that Well Having watched a little bit of the program earlier My time today. I'm now in the late evening. You're in the morning of the next day for me. I Think the first thing is that the crown road you'll need roads obviously you need methods for people to get around and To move their belongings to the degree that they have to move them but what is important is that and doing this that you enhance the Ability of the soil the ability of the water to fulfill their functions So you don't go Building roads inside drainage channels And then filling in the drainage channel with the road and making it difficult for yourself Find find an alternative move it a move it away It doesn't it's nice to have something that is that helps connect the city needs connections There's no question about that but do that in a way that is sensitive to the soil to the environment to the trees The great force that have been planted there They hold a wealth of resources To the degree that it is possible don't destroy them If there will be places where it is obviously necessary to cut down some trees So if you cut down a tree you plant 50 more plant a hundred more That's been done nicely in the past. It can be done again, but look at the topography Look at who's using the road ask yourselves and then I've heard discussion earlier today about you know What kind of vehicular traffic is expected? Try to figure out how to minimize the vehicular traffic because it is it is environmentally difficult to manage and You don't want it to overwhelm you So take the road take it as an idea that it is connecting people But it doesn't have to connect in straight lines or perfect circles It has to connect in ways that enhance the environment Does that help? Hi David, this is Pavneet Hi, how are you? Good. Good My nice to see you. I Just want to ask you. What are your thoughts? I mean, I write we had Chennai floods in 2016 and recently again and this year we had like very very Exceptional rain about two and a half times of the normal annual rainfall Because of which I've noticed because of which even Pondicherry had flooding a lot of times and huge economic losses Also in Auroville for the first time I heard in a few places. They were floods So in terms of thinking Time-wise Now like 20 30.  I mean, how critical do you feel? the flooding situation is in Terms of planning in our cities and being in this region and seeing the cities around us in this region Getting affected so severely Well, I think I think it is absolutely critical as I mentioned earlier We're in a time of severe climate change and we do know that what we will be seeing in the future is increased intensity of rainfall increased duration of dry spells Variability will go off and it is hard to manage Nothing will be a hundred percent but by building a System that absorbs as much of the water as possible and maintains the water table where possible It may be at some point you will have to dive some of the water out into the ocean After you've restored the aquifer to the maximum degree possible But what you want to do is to make sure that you don't Continue the process of denuding the land Either within or outside that you help the bio region Maximize its ability to absorb water and maintain it And of course as I say if you also plant enough trees, it will help modify the climate to some degree Oroville itself cannot Naturally deal with global warming and solve the problem for everybody. It can only do a little bit of work in its own area but It serves as a demonstration of what can be done when people get together and work together constructively and The world desperately needs Better examples of how we can work cooperatively to handle global warming So you're building roads, but you're also trying to reduce the number of automobiles and Switch over to as much electricity as possible as much bicycle power as possible That helps it's a demonstration and it can be used as a model for the rest of the world as you say the city that the world needs if it serves that function and so I would hope that as you move forward to to develop actions based on your planning and including Addressing the biological and ecological issues that I've raised You will draw in more people who will see to it that Oroville has demonstrated a method whereby a regional Program could be put together that solves problems not just at the individual plot level, but at a regional level so you're So that you have a whole population working together to deal with the issues and not just individually Oh, I'm going to go out and buy my electric bike and I've solved the the the climate problem It isn't done that way. It has to be done as a As a large-scale cooperative venture and I would suggest further that in talking with the government authorities You emphasize the point that this is a common problem Everywhere you go and it is something which Oroville can contribute to helping solve That Oroville is a resource not only for itself, but for the bio region and it is a demonstration model that can be Shared with much of the rest of India. Yes. Hello, David. This is yes. This is Omar. Good to see you again Yes, good to see you Omar. Thank you. Yes. Yes, so I have two questions one is Through discussions with the planners from the vast to Shilpa yesterday and through looking at the situation It seems that It this idea of a continuous crown is almost today impossible considering all the land situations around Oroville the the villages the the the The land that it is sold as it seems impossibility. So so so as you as you said control is an illusion So that the first question is what can we do now what is even while it is not we cannot probably have it continuous what is possible to do now to to to get the Highest benefit of the crown concept the second question because it's very important for the dream weaving Work because they are working on the crown What can be done more in a central area like the crown which could have Any positive impact on the boundary conditions if any Maybe there's nothing Because you most of your workers in the battle conditions But what would be your recommendations for those who are working on the crown situation? Which is more central and it could have a positive impact on the boundary condition. Yeah, thank you Okay Well Let me go back Could you restate your first question again? I'm sorry Omar I was trying to listen to too much at once the the possibility of having a continuous crown and if not What can we do? What is the best we can do to still maintain some of the? Advantages of the crown concept. Yeah well the crown Can can can be as continuous as you want it or don't want it to be I I think The barriers to continuity will tend to be more legalistic and administrative than they are physical Provided you build the crown By David I'm very sorry. It is too early for me in the morning. I am talking about the continuity of the green belt Oh, the Greenville. Yeah. Yeah. Now everybody understand The continuity of the green belt is almost impossibility of all the land situation What what can we do to get it as useful? Yeah, the crown hopefully continuous. Yeah, yeah No, the the green belt This is why I said that Oroville needs to have an outreach to its neighbors within the green belt to help them see the advantages of following some of the steps that Oroville is taking Demonstrating to them how they their own Living situation will improve if they follow some of the same patterns that we have suggested should be applied in the green belt Creating and planting buffers maintaining water courses Building in areas that are not, you know subject to flooding Protecting the porno book areas so that you have the The drainage channels are maintained. There's been some wonderful work done in the past 30 years by people such as TD to build check dams to help slow the water flow These are things that can be done by your neighbors in their land as well. Okay, I think One more point is build Social relations with the neighbors to the degree possible. You are offering schools to their children to some to some extent As I say the sustainable livelihood Institute offers training courses, which will help them put together Videos and TV shows or whatever computerized shows that you could take to the villages and go out and say look, this is what we're doing You know, we thought you might be interested. Maybe maybe you can learn something from this Maybe we can learn something from you. You have you've been on this land for the last two or three thousand years You've done certain good things Let's work together The most important thing is to build a cooperative set of relationships With the non oravilion parts of the green belt. Hi, David. My name is Jayanthi Yes, Jayanthi I have a question I think one of the things that Orville has done Excellently, but possibly we've not leveraged it as much as you said is in terms of individual Experience in so many fields including environment So not just the bio region because after all even if these five villages in the area were to Emulate or replicate or even adapt adopt some of these processes. We've done some of these methods It may make some difference, but I think if Orville also looks at Sharing some of these practices with other states of India other parts of the globe. I think it's about Being a beacon for others to emulate. Do you think that is something we should think of? Absolutely That's that's perhaps the most important function that Orville has it has brought together a great deal of knowledge and understanding In a in a small group of people And it should be turned into a resource not only for the bio region, but India more broadly and turn it around There's a similar type of Process that has been carried out in other parts of India where they have built What they call panipunjayats Where they have farmers are responsible for jointly managing the water supply in their area and What I'm suggesting that an orville can help Bring about an increase in this kind of cooperation where people join together to Manage common problems instead of everybody having to do it themselves. I Would suggest also that Taking a program such as this To the foundation and saying look Foundation here is something where orville is making a contribution to India. Can we find a way to? somewhat institutionalize this as a broader program Where others can come here and learn and take the lessons back and Apply them elsewhere Some years back. I met a wonderful man who would come out to talk about water management in Rajasthan this was in a program that that Was put together by Pondekan He's going around the country and showing people how to How they can restore water courses Orville can do much the same thing It will require resources you may not currently have But it is important enough that I think the government of India could be persuaded given the proper access To set up a program whereby people come to orville to learn or a billions are set out to help The program is institutionalized You put together a whole series of video trainings all sorts of things like that And this becomes a resource for all of India not just for the bio region All right. Thank you David Thank you. We're Going to move on to the next presentation. Thank you very much for joining us and for staying up late I understand in your time. Oh, it's not that late. I stay up at least this late any night But thank you for the opportunity And if anyone wishes to please you can send me an email Or call me on WhatsApp or whatever it is and I'll be happy to try to discuss this Just please do remember it is now 10 30 at night in New Jersey So when you call me, please call me very early in the morning or very much later in the evening on your time So that catches me at times when I'm available. Yes, maybe the email is a preferred form of communications here We can always pass on any questions anyone has to David and Yeah, thank you with that we move on to the next presenter Who is? Yes, okay, good Rick So our next speaker is Toby Yeah, you can come up So Toby is going to share a presentation on the ATDC infrastructure work Toby has been connected to Oroville since 1971 and became Orovillian in 2006 He was an executive of water harvest for six years and an executive for water service for eight years He was the infrastructure coordinator for TDC for eight years and has been the director of Varuna water For nine years Okay, welcome Toby Over to you First of all, thank you for Getting the opportunity to say something about well actually quite a technical Subject infrastructure. I mean What I'm gonna tell you in the next 45 minutes There are quite a few technicalities and I try to stay as much As possible away with but you cannot avoid it when you do infrastructure Oroville has already quite history on Infrastructure, I mean from the very beginning People needed water People needed roads people needed wastewater at least a collection of wastewater So everybody tried to find solution for this and it was all all decentralized in Communities where people find make the bore well making pathways and and things like this But gradually gradually when the density Increased other systems needed to come in place and that is basically what I want to say today that from a community oriented Kind of infrastructure we are moving towards a city kind of infrastructure Now I have to press this one yeah the The presentation is well definition. I will not say too much about definition Main drivers. That's actually quite an important one present situation in our will from where are we how does it look like and Objectives I don't say too much But every kind of infrastructure has some kind of objectives that that at least have a bit of a feeling what it is and Then planning a project and actually here on the on the right side. You see what I see now here in our will as as Infrastructure, I mean of course roads that is an Important part of our infrastructure. I mean it is old as as the Romans and and Egyptians But it is it is not for nothing that it is that old because people want one to connect Surface water electricity water supply the whole water point. It's an important but very complex item Gray water telecom and then a few other ones solid waste of gas Railways we don't have much in our bill not yet. I mean there are still plans even in the master plan of a railway But I don't see it coming so quickly, but nevertheless to go into the definition of of Infrastructure, I mean it is a basic and the laying framework for something and as holistic as the definition is as Apply what it is to everything I Was once in a hospital and they said our hospital infrastructure is very good So what do they mean infrastructure in this hospital if you take all the processes out and you see what is left Yeah, that is infrastructure. I mean if you go to military infrastructure, or you go through all kind of other infrastructure it is it is really an Topic what what can easily extend itself to to a lot of things It serves always something else. I put their New York at night and that is light You don't see a single cable. You don't see where the power is coming from you Don't see anything you just see the light. I mean this is what infrastructure is doing. You don't see The cables you don't see anything of it, but in the end something happens. What is really needed to get to get it on usually usually it is very technical and When you talk to architects, then you really have to say well the design part is only 456 percent, but as soon as the engineers are coming in then the real work starts Amounts volumes length and all that kind of stuff what is in between what is I mean all that kind of thing And that you can call designing with the engineer all designing. I Remember when I was really busy at the water supply We needed to make an it was for Casablanca at that moment to make a whole water Supply infrastructure. It was 40 engineers and only engineers who worked on this I mean there was not a stout stout planner nothing nothing of that. That was it was only engineering It is costly. That's a very important item infrastructure And I'm not saying here PVC pipes But infrastructure is very expensive Especially when you have backbone kind of infrastructure. I mean you pay easily course for for for a few Kilometers and then I'm only talking about the infrastructure itself and I'm not talking about transformers and I'm not talking about Desalination plant and I'm not talking about I mean it is really a costly a costly thing Most of it is completely invisible. I Remember I did insurances and I went to water and I came in a water company And I looked at the balance sheet and then you have an insurance company in mind how a balance shoot sheet should look And then you look at the balance sheet of a water supply company and you think what is what is going on here? I mean the amount of assets was gigantic and Then you ask where are they? It's all underground It is it is all gone. It is all you don't see them Water tanks underground pipes underground. I mean it is it you don't see it and all those millions are underground and I remember you can play a bit with it that you say look if you have a depreciation of 80 years By governmental rules I come on governmental rules later if you have a depreciation of 80 years, which is extremely long And you make it to 90 or 100 years what happened in that period when I was there. That's certainly your profit explodes I mean it is it is Costly investments are high Depreciation times are very long and it has gigantic effect on your finances where you're busy with It is rigid and underlined that word. It is extremely rigid Not when you have to do a connection then you can make a line here and there but backbones are rigid and When you have electricity or water or gas or whatever and you have to follow Certain standards where I come then you cannot deviate from this and you can But you pay a quite a cost for it Not only in the length but also finding a back Accessibility and all that kind of things because if in a backbone something goes wrong Half of the city is without power half of the city is without water half of the city is without Whatever the infrastructure is for so it is rigid Although there is a trend of more flexibility, but you see that mainly in the connection not in the backbones So that's an important thing to keep them then yeah I love history and It doesn't fit here actually Fantastic history of infrastructure. It should not be here, but but somehow I was making it I did quite some studies on roads in Roman times Quite some water studies in Egypt and Roman When I was on the university and what what I liked was that Roman concept I mean they made a network of roads for whole Europe and the basic line of thinking was that every point of their empire Should be reached in 28 days of marching time So the older roads were constructed in Kind of way that in a certain time you could reach things. I mean this is strategic thinking I'm not saying we should do it. It had mainly a military purpose, but but I mean this is the way you can look at the development of it main drivers Important to know have you come now close to awful One of the main drivers of infrastructure is growth If you don't have growth Then you are not so in the need of infrastructure And it is Mars. It makes a big difference if you have 20,000 50,000 hundred thousand a million people makes a big difference If you have their 20 their 25, I mean, that's a different world You need growth a you need Mars to develop infrastructure if you don't have Mars and growth then it is simply too expensive I remember that I Remember that in the Netherlands when I was Responsible for the water supply about one-third of the country that the whole areas Who had their own borewell and it was especially farmers? To reach a farmer from a water supply company directly Was quite a lengthy thing. I mean you have to go kilometers to find a farm Suddenly there was a governmental rule that borewells were not allowed anymore So farmers and also the the the breeding companies or whatever they were not allowed to use Borwell water their own borrower water, but needed water supply. I Remember the investments we had to make to reach all those farms. It was huge and this is What sometimes happens that it is not only Mars and growth but also governmental regulations Which says what you have to do and how much you have to pay and how much you have to to connect It is it is it is not only the DMS Neat, of course, and that is and shortages it is not so known but Most countries have standards in their water So when you supply water and you're in the water supply kind of business, I would not say but service Then you need to follow certain standards on the quality The point here is that if you find areas Where people have made their own way of supplying what we see quite a few quite a lot in order that it immediately because of the Most of the time low investments what people do is that the water quality goes bad very quickly if you have a PVC pipe and The connection of what last five six or seven years after that it starts leaking not only to the outside But when you have rain also to the inside and that is where the quality comes. So the need is Rules is governmental rules in a quality standard what you have to match And this is where usually a problem comes on a community level and technology if you see how much technology infrastructure has digest Techniques of Making pipes techniques of cables techniques of efficient transformers techniques of Optical fiber techniques that has a huge huge growth in in all kind of possibilities We are doing at the moment things we could not have dreamt of 20 25 years ago, and it is just Connection techniques. It is different kind of materials. It is I mean now We can see flow through a pipe of water A governmental rule is one second per meter and now you have devices where you can exactly see it There are devices where you can see if there are a coli's in the water There are devices where you can see exactly what the voltage is of cables There are devices where you can see exactly how much a coli and other things are in wastewater I mean that's all there now. That was 20 25 years not the case Other fibers thought less important. You see apart from the backbones a localization I give you an example If you have a bore well and you supply water Then usually there's a bore well and a tower and then connection And I mean that is that is a quite a standard thing in in in our well, but I've worked You can choose that you say look we we want less bore wells in our of ill And I think we should make that step In the Netherlands. I told you when I had one third of the country. We did it with 49 bore wells. You hear 3 million people 49 bore wells here we are with 3,000 people you have 120 bore wells. I mean it is it is out of context it is out of context and Of course the whole Archeic culture part is is important here that is that that makes a big difference But the scale where we work in is is far from efficient But if you see what is happening at the moment in air water that from the air you can pull water and You can basically on a very local level deliver water I mean the machines you can buy them on Amazon and you have till a thousand liter a day You have a bit of an electricity problem But you see more and more that solar comes in here that the the development of very local making things that that That goes on the same with with electricity power. I mean windmills Solar panels it is all more localized that was 20 25 years not the case You see that happening and now the combination starts where you have a local on one side and central and how they fit in But that's how the smart systems are come that later Away from fossil of course. I don't need to to say something about it that is an increase Especially electricity has an important part footprints. I do it in plural More and more we look at what is the total electricity footprint? What is the total water footprint? What is the total carbon footprint? What is the total? I mean you will be surprised if you buy Something in the shop and you ask for the water footprint or the electricity footprint usually it is not given But if you would know how many thousands of liters is needed to make one pot of jam to make one I mean They said we are doing something wrong. Just when you buy a cup How many liters of water in the whole process is needed to make a cup? I mean that is something that is coming up at the moment And we have to think through to make that as as low as possible and it has become increasingly professional I mean the the engineering agencies on gas the engineering agencies on optical fibers the engineering agencies on water I mean they are really Really professional and that is also needed in in in our time The present situation in the Arville context, maybe we zoom now in in in Arville Our residential numbers are small and Of course, I can say something about visitors and guests and about workers and whatever but in in in in in Infrastructure context we are small. I'm not saying too small, but but small It starts with 20,000 15 20,000 That is that is what but you basically We have large distances. I mean not only 3,000 are living in one line of force No, I mean that it goes all the way around and and and of course it worked like this When the land was bought People settled there to take possession of the land and to defend it for encroachment and all that kind of thing But now that that Policy or that attitude is is working against us in the infrastructure development I mean there you need more density what we but starts now bid a residential sector one and two But it has to increase from an infrastructure point of view Vegetary constraints. I mean I told you infrastructure is expensive So you need money and if you don't have money, yeah, you cannot invest in infrastructure as simple as this and especially when you look at the water pipes and the high tension cable and the optical fibers and I mean It costs a lot of money and we don't get every year to three core to invest because when you start investing You have to go on it is not that one year you do to core and then you wait five years And they use something else but basically what most of the infrastructure companies are doing that they have the investment plans for the next five six Seven years and they plan behind the planning So they look at what planning is saying so many houses there so many companies there so many farms there so many and Basically on this they start planning their infrastructure There are planning constraints. I mean I wish The DDP was ready That makes the life of infrastructure people much easier because then at least you know where what comes Now we are thinking. Ah, yeah, it is residential, but how many is it five thousand six thousand seven thousand makes a big difference Ah, yeah, there are companies without those companies Using a lot of electricity or not or I mean it makes a big difference if you have a food processing company or you have an office I mean in water and electricity use is a big big difference And if the DDP is ready, and I'm not saying it will give an answer on everything But at least a huge attempt is being made now to get that ready that makes our life from an infrastructure point of view much easier and at least you can start calculating the capacities and the length and all that kind of things and that you know where what will come and Preferably in the development that you say That will be next year that would be in two year that will be a five year and it doesn't need to be on the month But that at least you have a bit of a feeling that the pipe has to go there We are a bit too forestry. Yeah, I don't dare to say but Infrastructure doesn't like trees. I Mean I don't make myself very popular in saying this I think but If you want to have a pipe or a rope and you want to have it a bit stretched And then suddenly you see a tree. You think yeah, you can go around it. You can go under you can over But why don't we transplant the tree? And most infrastructure is quite flexible, but not the backbones Not the backbones backbones needs to be straight Everything you say can be used against you in a quarter wall And We are a bit too organic that means I'm not against organic But oh, let's do it like this sit together and then oh we can also do it like this and then comes to I mean It has its own value But not an infrastructure planning Infrastructure planning needs a very rigid approach. Otherwise, it doesn't work Otherwise, it doesn't work the first one that in the objectives and This is Not so known But I really want to bring it forward to you That infrastructure is never standing on itself. It serves Something and that something has to be defined very well The better you define it the better the infrastructure functions the first thing is That you reach Everybody who need to be reached and actually that is also the social equality if I see an orville the access to water from our villains the access to electricity the access to wastewater the access to Optical fiber then there are big differences We are not so social We are not so in the sense that we take money away from there and put it there to make a good Infrastructure for them. We don't do this. We have not an social background If you really have money you make a big bore well, and then you start giving it to your neighbors. It doesn't work like this there was a year a huge debate a huge debate about water supply if that was commercial domain or public domain France and United Kingdom wanted water supply in a commercial domain They want to sell for for good prices and they could do cross-selling and and they make bottles and all that kind of stuff and Other countries especially Germany Netherlands Belgium and the Northern country wanted in a public domain Because water belong to everybody The last one one and I really say one because it was a battlefield for two years. We're in the end The council of Europe say no we make it public to big Regrets of the other two countries who wanted to make it commercial I mean you talk about things like this because if you make it commercial you make immediately a cost-benefit analysis For a damn I'm going to supply the ideas or no and that shoot for water and for electricity never be the case Also, not in our well be careful. Please be careful here quality of output I Have a machine but I put in my my electricity and then I see the fluctuations in the power and the power cuts before I came to India I didn't even know what a power cut was I Cannot remember that I ever seen it, but in India clock over and They're not ten minutes. I mean two hours and then luckily I had not a fridge then and all that kind of things But I mean this is our basic drive that we say we deliver But we have a certain consistency in deliverance That it not stops every five minutes That is something what the providers should have in their backbones That they say look you deliver it And you make all your systems and your whole day out of your systems ready that you can deliver it This is why in most countries the systems are double Water system electricity system. They are all double 24-7 less environment effects Least cost per unit of course and then the social now did is called this is called benchmarking if you have Quite well under control your delivery assurance your quality assurance your environmental assurance your cost Assurance that's called a benchmark and if you have this boot on order on the provider then you're really somewhere and otherwise you just Do something really not knowing where exactly you are busy with I come to this later Process of infrastructure development. Well, you have a master plan There's a lot of things set about infrastructure, especially roads and especially cross sections Development plan that's made now project definitions are coming out of it And then that comes to the implementation teams to say like we won by one we take the projects out We start implementing this is a normal structure of Doing it for for infrastructure The functional separation that is a bit of an in-between I Want just to say something that governmental rules You have actually we have hardly any idea when how deep Government is involved in infrastructure I mean it is not only regulations It is not only for safety. It is not only for budgets. It is for a whole line of items that they are stepping into Infrastructure, so this is this is important to know that every time for the water quality power accessibility Optical fiber you see everywhere the government has something to say about it or it is in giving direct Directives or it is in the controls and in the safety measurements planning of course We see in our bill we have cut planning and the providers that is not Always everywhere the case usually planning and providers go together usually Water companies power companies they have their own planning and they submit their plans to the government and they say yes And then we have split it the TDC is here doing the planning part and the providers are doing the execution of the project I'm providing the thing so that that's a bit different that it works, but it is a bit different and Here you have a beautiful Overview from where we are at this very moment roads We have not so many studies About rose that is the bell which bell is it the 30 or 35 the 30 bell, okay fantastic We have studies about technicalities of roads cross-sections All that kind of thing and actually if you look at the present situation and the problems what we face in the present ground development is those Studies are insufficient They take insufficient Consideration for especially the water flows And we know that whole Aroville is on a ridge So what are what falls that has the tendency to follow gravity and go down and that part is being researched now And we are waiting for the design of the crown With respect to storm water and other water things so that is a point But what what really needs to be integrated otherwise you have roads that flow away or you have again wet feet when you stand It's roads are quite well defined in the master plan. I mean it is the crown road It is the radials Ring road access road service roads I'm not saying that all the positions are exactly pinpoint that is only for the for for the crown road the other ones are more or less in in the right place But the the master plan gives quite a good direction where those roads need to be and The big project what we have at the moment at hand is the crown road, but the moment that stopped because of those green trivial electricity we We did quite a lot of research on electricity especially on the solar part If you look at Varuna, especially on the wind part So that that is building up those reports are within the TDC. So they are free for access So please pass by and and get them Master plan is there is a master plan for electricity I saw the presentation of one he gave quite a well express a of of what is what is there? And that that looks quite solid and the basic line is high tension as close as possible Transformers and then connecting. I mean this is a distribution. Why do you do that? Because you lost a solo and that you make solar Entry is possible. I mean that is that's the whole thing So the more solar the more at the last tdb you need I mean that is basically if you look at the whole power situation if you look at all the solar we have and And the Varuna windmills and basically we visit this even that is that is quite an achievement what we have Crown cable they're working on the conversion to 2211. That's quite a story We have quite an old system in the 22 KV high tension. It has to go to 11 That means that all the transformers have to be replaced. That's quite quite a thing Communities need to be reconnected or connected with the underground cable and more solar power So that they are actually electricity is quite professional busy there in the water supply Actually, if you see what a supply waste water gray water and and service water that we have tons loads of research and It was young it was it was a bully call it is You know, I mean there are a lot of people who have studied water and That's it is one of the most complex items also and you can look at many different kind of ways to water and What needs to be known from an infrastructure point of view that you make a plan out of it? So there should be a water supply plant. Yes, it's there Aqua engineers Derek made this but mainly for the residential zone not for the other zones So it is limited in its scope. So that needs to be re-looked at They are busy with the crown distribution and residential zone sector one and T waste water That's a bit of a problem We have very decentralized waste water system most of them worked quite well Worked quite well and a few not but most of the work quite well and we try to To increase the volume centralized a little bit what we did in my tray that works Works well But we have to experiment more but our main problem there is we don't have a provider There is nobody who stepped forward and said look I'm in charge of wastewater and I like to organize it And of course there isn't a usage group and of course, but really engineering and the daily material your fingers on that It's not there yet that that has to come Gray water same as waste water. I mean there's go together if you centralize the It's not the same waste water What I mean is that you collect the waste water from houses offices that needs to be treated and When it is treated it becomes a gray water, but you can use for gardening that is more or less a definition here Basically black water is just what comes from your kitchen Especially involve rain water even here, but the definition what I follow here is the book definitions that You have wastewater what you collect that's treated and after treatment you call it gray water that that is basically the thing and the rest Is definitions I mean we we agree quickly we agree quickly that rain water when it is mixed with Waste water that we can call it rain water. I mean maybe we can notice this agreement We can wait till after the presentation for questions Telecom actually GV made quite a plan here That's taken up by by by Chandrish. He is developing it now further So that goes quite well Here you see the providers you see road service electrical service water service waste water has no provider gray water No provider except on a decentralized level that that I have to say and telecom is the telephone service in Arinoco I mean it is a black and white you can you can you can look differently, but that is mainly like this Sorry That is service water. Yeah, that that I didn't put here There is nobody in charge of storm water and that actually it is a very interesting thing and I didn't want to mention here for special reasons Storm water We did a huge amount of work of storm water here in our well basically we have managed to have a zero runoff By bending and by by by making ponds and all that kind of stuff But it hardly needed infrastructure till so far that will come in the future Because if we want to use more rain water, it will come and you will see that in the in the project listed is there But you're right. I did mention it here Master plan. I mean these are the roads what what what are on on the table Follow mainly the mobility study of Bellinger there are more studies, and we actually there are quite a few studies on mobility but Limited is cope or on a special place or on a special kind of Mobility, I mean they are there, but this is the main one and The roads done so far and now Something really comes we have made one kilometer of crown road in in in the last 12 years It is not a finalized project.  I mean it goes all the way up to what we called in the past pony farm to that bird sanctuary where the Where the road stopped perhaps you remember the thing it is not finished yet Vika's radial. I mean it is one of the busiest roads what we have it stops in front of my trail It is not finished. You see that every road We have made so far is not finalized and there are a few reasons for it one. We don't have the lens That's an important one Secondly, there are communities who don't want a road through their community and that's a difficult process and I mean if you add up those two and there are more reasons but those two reasons make it very difficult I mean if you see the Vika's radial which has to go along Metria and then come to the ring road. So the position of the ring road will determine where exactly the Vika's radial will come now as long as we don't have an exact position of the ring road It will be difficult to connect That that road there, but see we have done quite a few roads and there is no actually finalized Sorry Yeah, well that was not in these cases, but it can be a problem But not in these cases. There were other problems What a supply but I said already a lot of studies and actually good studies Very interesting studies from very different aspects How you can look at water some zoom in on the storm water some zoom in on borewell Some zoom in on the combination between wastewater and water supply some zoom in on every I mean a very interesting if you really have time then I advise you to to look at those documents especially Jill bullico Especially also Derek but from a from a from a quite a different angle Very helpful in making some but there is not an overall water plan. That's not there And actually we need to kind of an agency who is who's doing this So we are busy setting out a process in making a water plan for our field and that that will take a bit of Time before that all comes together Community oriented The big suppliers are at the moment water service the silent system that they have merged and The our own model system. I mean these are the big system together They take about sixty sixty five percent of the total water supply in our field That's quite a lot already. Although the total volumes if you look at this is not so much It is mainly still community oriented Which is fine functions with their equality problems And the main projects at the moment in the water is residential sector one and two and and and the crown Waste water and grey water. I keep my definition I mean you see also here young Derek Jill and and I forgot your name And others and it is mainly the completion of sector one and two the main projects here in wastewater I mean, let's let's hope that the whole sector one and two and get connected to the wastewater plant and see how it starts Functioning because we need that experience just to to to to continue Now now you get a few pictures of me and but click your your seatbelts Because This is actually the best and this is the power supply What you see here is What you see here is Where the power comes in and what you see here is? The backbone the high tension backbone and This is actually what I said You need be rigid You need to be as straight as possible, but it is it it may anders like anything and that means that one the maintenance will be difficult because whole parts of pipes and Cables you don't know where they are anymore And secondly you will see for the future when you start relaying pipes It will be more cost and whole parts will be just lost And this is why from our side From an infrastructure point of view that make now the roads first Make now the main roads as straight or circular as possible and From there put your infrastructure in the ground and after the backbones are there Then you can start connecting in the communities and in the different sectors and then everything might fall in its place This is 45. Yeah What a supply now that also They did their best and I was part of it of doing the best and I mean it functions But it doesn't follow we and a plan It is fun. There's a need there a community doesn't have water anymore So you connect them and then there's a borewell collapses there So you connect them and this is a bit the growth and then you start interconnecting that the different ones And then I mean in the end you end up with something like this It's mainly here. Just mainly a budgetary problem This is optical fiber, it's a bit difficult to see but basically Follows electricity what Chandrash is doing here He walks behind Puno Swami and see where trenches are ducked and if he sees the trench he puts a cable in there But I'm say the bit Not as I should say it but but but he has some kind of cleverness in it in in doing it And he's doing there a good job. I mean that is that is what it's was having But the same as what I said about electricity It meanders too much. It doesn't follow an Real standard it should be Now did this telephone? I mean actually I didn't even want to show it But of course Chris Chris through everything and this is actually not how it should be We need much more planning. I mean it is if you if you spend those kind of amounts you have to follow and principle For the next year the following projects are Depicted in the water supply Electrical was a wastewater. I don't know if I should go through all of them and tell I think we don't have the time but We can do that any any moment, but there is quite a lot of projects are planned and are in preparation at the moment You see electrical they go for the LFK V feeders water supply is Mainly connecting in the residential zone and in the industrial zone Telecom the same roads that is mainly crown main conclusions and then I end Infrastructure doesn't follow reality, but follows a plan You want a reality in five ten or fifty years. You will be surprised That some pipes some cables are planned for 20 years ahead because you know there something is happening We have the possibility of doing so do it now and don't wait those cables and pipes go hundred years I mean they stay in the ground and they say okay. That is that is usually not the problem Infrastructure needs to be ahead of reality Because you want to provide everybody power you want to provide everybody water you want to provide everybody Great water you want to provide so you have to be ahead of it So when a building is there it is click click click and they can basically they can they can go Infrastructure and mainly the backbones they have to follow roads I mean there is not a country. We doesn't do it Especially in cities. I mean I know there are distribution pipes through deserts and they don't follow any road But even there they have done it I mean if there is something wrong it has to be accessible and Accessible means that you know where it is and accessible means that when you start digging that you know where the leakage or whatever That it is there. I mean it is as simple as this and if your backbone something go wrong really something go wrong Despite our plans of infrastructure and all the documents we have too much ad hoc all we can do this Oh, we can do that. Oh, let's do it. I mean we are too much ad hoc It needs to be much more systematic much more systematic on a from our table Parts of the present infrastructure is already lost. I mean by meandering by new plans By knowing you have to relay it That expensive part is is here and there already lost and that is not not not a thing Okay, I think this is more or less it way forward That is all quite quite simple. I mean I mean Infrastructure needs absolute priority over land use that means that before anybody says anything Infrastructure comes forward first and that sounds a bit dictatorial that you have to be a bit dictatorial here Otherwise you end up in a mess We need a yearly constant budget to do it and that is not I mean 20 or 100 crores or something But just that you can can go on and In the other vocation we need better and more expertise We have luckily good expertise and we fly in expertise But if you look in the TDC in the different providers, we need more engineers and high qualified engineers to get those things going otherwise We make big mistakes and the providers need to upgrade. I mean water electricity. They need to have good engineers on board I Stopped now. This is more less it Wanted to say something about benchmark and smarting Last topic smarting is extremely interesting because that is a completely new thing What is also going in our well, but let's do that another time. Yep. All right. Thank you, Toby We have some time for questions just to remind everyone that we're taking one question per person We want to try and focus the questions on the presentation and Please indicate to David if you have a question, I will follow his instructions as to who gets the mic So as You mentioned halfway through that of course the various oravillians who are involved with infrastructure have been basically waiting Desperately for a DDP because it would obviously help you to do your work So I have a question to you as somebody who has been in previous Lavaniers, not just the present one, but earlier too. Could you to help? Rajesh and so on understand some of Like their task is now to produce a DDP But for instance Louis Louis Faducci Produced a DDP as far as I'm aware. Yeah for sectors one and two of the residential zone So could you perhaps speak to? The degree to which that did or didn't tick the boxes or why it wasn't followed or has it been followed? It has been followed So that was useful and you're basically waiting now for an extension. I say has been followed and I'm making a two big step There were apart from fiduci also other studies a very interesting studies and The point is that on the TDC table at that moment. We never said and this is it So we kept it and we followed it and Then in every situation and then you have to see how the process works in the TDC Because we work actually on a kind of application basis building comes Small big or whatever and you start processing the building and then of course you look for a site a place and Then all the plants come on the table for what has been said about this area this area this area and Gradually you come to a place This is how it usually work Luckily luckily in the in the residential zone sector one and on a lot of work has been done by different people So we were not in the blind We were not in the blind So yes fiduci did work others did work and most of it was followed as much as possible Yeah, absolutely in the times. I was there. I mean I cannot speak of other ones Very sorry, I have two questions if I'm allowed to do that. I cannot hear they both are connected, please Okay, okay So then can you go back to that slide which talks about the detailed development plan, but it says something about the electricity? Electrical cables you say stop. No you pass that no no no no Okay, go next down Next here just wait here. Yeah so first I would like to know in your talk you just mentioned that We talked you talked about the roads of Masterplan and then you said radials and outer ring. We do not know precisely where it's starting, etc But crown we know yeah Because we all are going to work on that next two three weeks Is it possible for TDC to give us the the the data on the crown that you have which is the precise? Yeah, we can get alignments the the dimensions the surveys whatever what is no problem So that was question one And the other thing here Along the crown what you see Is the electrical cable done already or that yeah the other red parts is done Sorry all the the red parts that starts here. Yeah all this Which is not high-tech circle and also here all the way to Barat Nivas actually it comes here here in the right But that's not perfect circle if I see yeah, so the road follows that. No, huh? No, okay It follows here and there look in the in the cable and do you know where here and there is where we know Very precise. Yes okay because the high tension cable is That has also something to do with with with the electricity Governmental kind of rules that you have to know exactly where it is Yeah, yeah, if yeah, and I like it as precise as possible Because the we have to give GPS points who should be here I didn't hear Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Hi to So when we talk about infrastructure There is you said the backbone can't be changed. It is very rigid. So that's what I Yeah, that's the message I get that was the message I want to go very yeah, but Looking at the other technologies how the building technologies and even the infrastructure technologies even the methods of surveying How it is advancing day by day. Yeah, it's it's really incredible and we are not able to catch it up But do you still think because whenever I See about building buildings we when we talk about building lines of forces We talk about advanced technologies building over the canyon and everything but when we talk about Infrastructure somehow we are coming back to older section. Yeah, like you know that this is very rigid This are it should be on either side of the road with But I don't see why are we missing to see the advanced technologies that can be adapted or Because it somehow to me feels like we are wanting to be in a comfort zone only when it comes to that thing Is there any way that we can break it through and Is it is it because I don't know the nuances of the Electricity or those kind of things. So is there a way through or we say even for 50 more years We will have that rigidity on the backbone. Yeah, I mean it's a valid question And we had exactly the same questions when we were talking with representatives of the youth center and and Akali Because they had different kind of ideas how the infrastructure should be Placed I mean we have on two sides of the road infrastructure that is in our case needed Was for for for the total amount what you think what will be the power consumption what will be the water consumption What will be not the wastewater the wastewater is is a different thing that for gravity and that doesn't follow roads usually But that's a completely different things. I didn't want to mention it here, but that's a different thing so what we did I Researched what kind of other possibilities there are and there are a lot of other possibilities. I mean you can have the Infra trenches not Horizontal but vertical You can have I mean you start there with water and then electricity and then I mean you make a concrete Kind of thing and you place them like this and then you talk about a meter of 50 centimeter for this for walking and that's perfect It is crazy expensive. I Made calculations for one kilometer two kilometer five hundred meter this crazy expensive Then the idea was can we do it under the road, which is possible? But it becomes inaccessible Some governmental don't allow it. I mean I see especially electricity. They don't allow it water supply Don't allow it from government. We can do it, but then there's a violation So I'm not saying there are no other possibilities But seeing our density Seeing our development pattern. We have to in our infrastructure is already Quite expensive if you see the total amount of people what we have I mean mind you we we at the moment we invest in quite expensive infrastructure For three thousand people and of course we say five and ten, but but nevertheless So to make it more expensive and are not in a factor one or two, but factor three or four That you have those or those or whatever is at this very moment Not feasible. I it's not feasible not feasible, but there are other possibilities. Absolutely I What what is sorry you want me to stand there Yeah, but I have to Hear the question and my hearing is not so good. So I Prefer to be close to the people Let's not over-execuate. We have the crown corridor of the sixteen point seven I mean You know how big they are in in in in other cities I mean we already brought it back from 25 to two to sixteen point seven and it is it is basically not much It is not much Perhaps we can take another 20 centimeters off, but I mean it is it is it is not much and For the moment, I don't think there are equally costly Alternatives than what we have planned for it for this moment and I'm talking here in this case only about the backbones When you have connections is a different world that you follow food paths and then you can go to parks I mean as long as you mark it properly, it's all fine, but backbones not Okay, we have time for one last question before the break Julio Yeah, thank you Toby for the presentation. Can you hear me? Yeah? Yeah, this is much better. Yeah, thank you. Okay. I have one consideration and one question The consideration have is said and you keep saying that the back bonus rigid Now I want to bring an element of reflection here for the architects It's rigid if we think the usual way But if we want to do something different it might be thought in a different way what I'm talking about you said yourself The first one of the first slides you were talking about localization then I look at the localization as a solution Local water Sourcing loader local energy sourcing solar panel decentralized was water Rainwater harvesting recycle of water and so on that you don't need a Distribution network for that unless you are talking about enabled Then the backbone becomes only a matter of guaranteeing a backup and Eventually sharing the surplus which is in one area and giving it into a different area But this doesn't need to be so rigid if we just have to change our perspective If we go into localized sourcing then we might maybe thinking in a different way and When I look at the list of the infrastructure You talk about water supply Blah blah blah and gray water blah blah blah, but there's one thing which is absolutely missing Where are you getting the water from you are planning for pipes which are virtually empty because you are not planning for Collecting water. There is no way a mention where the water Coming from the source is going to be running How are you going to put water in this distribution pipes? And then My question is you yourself said the ring road and the radials Position is not yet defined. No pressure now. I I I speak as not as a Geologist also a water researcher. I speak about this as a surveyor. I am also a surveyor Okay, and I find it so crazy that there is no parameters given for Surveying and marking. There are no parameters shared and The risk of what is happening right now Whatever these guys are going to plan the risk is that if we don't have clear-cut parameters Then whatever they are going to put to design It will not come exactly in the place where it's supposed to be So my question is what is the coordinates of the center of the city? What is the system of coordinates which have to be used in any design? What is the distance when you draw a circle you have to give the center and the radius? This is not mentioned on the master plan. I'm sorry This is not so this is only mentioned in the Sections of the right-of-way. This is mentioned in some ATDC Documents which are not shared publicly. This is only for Experts and I understand that this is not yet given to this group of people. So Imagine that this group of people is designing and then tomorrow because the times are very Constrained this has to go for implementation. How can a surveyor put on the ground what has been designed? sticking to Standards Governmental rules and so on and sticking to the design if there are no parameters fixed for the designers upfront and for the surveyors Thank you. You want me to address all the points. What what what it's quite a story actually Yeah, maybe just respond to the general question general Well your first point in the localization I mentioned that there is a trend in localization and I gave the example of air water and solar panels and all that kind of things The point here is and again from an infrastructure point of view You need when you want to provide within the 24-7 within the quality within all those parameters What what are there? You have to have proven technology Proven technology you don't want to have maintenance every 24 hours to repair something. So in the local solutions There is hardly anything. What is really in in 24-7? I mean that is from from It doesn't work like this. What I think what will happen is that that local will develop and Develop more and more. I mean that that we see everywhere and also that Centralized part will develop and those things are coming together the beauty you see in the electricity We have a tdb entrance. We have on the background of a runa who is Wheeling the energy into the system and set it off and in the other side We have solar panels which are feeding into the networks and actually that's a beautiful combination That from all the parties we are here and in that sense quite quite neutral in our in our tdb So I think there will be a combination. Secondly about the empty pipes I hope I don't see it happening that the pipes are empty and There are possibilities. I mean I didn't talk here about the salination because it's a topic in itself Why I've been busy with for the last eight years and Somehow there is again a momentum in in getting through There are other water resources available Here in and near by our will. What can keep those pipes full? I'm not saying it's the only solution we said and you were part of that whole discussion We go for multi-sourcing that means that we're gonna use rain water That means that we're gonna use ground water That means that we're gonna use desalinated water and the total sum of all those things Should be sufficient to to give water Water in in in our context the serving part. I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable about this I tell you We have we have on boo. We have Vinay there in our who know exactly what is what is the cases with the With the with the surveys and how far is that what I understood is that the bunion is more or less a center and Different points are taken around and from that we have a center and from there. We look at all the points The basic points for the survey that is that is my understanding how it really works in Crown and whatever Ambu should be here because he can give you much more detailed information than I can give you Yeah, maybe we can Just keep in mind that you can write down questions And we will send them to Toby and get them get responses from him on those questions We will just we will pass them on for sure and Yeah, it is time for tea break, but Omar has A half a question Toby hello, thank you for the presentation. I think all these presentation again and again show me the What we are missing here in Orville, which we call integrative design processes integrative integrative integrative. Yes when see you I Think that's it Yeah, no when I Mean the discussion between you and Julia clarify that Always we need to solve problems multi disciplinary team around one table Because if the info that this situation when the infrastructure look at the ideal Situation which in this case is spreading infrastructure from the edge to the edge of the sixteen point seven Without sitting with the other experts the water the bio climatic the mobility It puts us in this situation Which is not your responsibility only its responsibility of all of us who didn't sit enough around that table For example the bio climatic issue and I did very quick calculation of the sixteen point seven It's true. It's not very high number But these numbers in cities are cities for vehicular with high buildings While in this case you have the height of two-story high two and a half story high and 16.7 pedestrian dominantly pedestrian Very little shade Too many too much pavement very little solar radiation. So I am expecting high rise of temperature because it goes through 4.4 The water situation the the infrastructure and the street going through Park areas in which it should also maintain Ecosystem continuity and experience continuity you have to be able to walk it so so My question is simply is it too late? I mean I mean whatever has been done is very little and It's very imperfect Right. Is it too little is too late for integrative? This is what we're trying to do here for integrative design processes in which there is a good solution for the infrastructure But it doesn't harm the environment doesn't harm the bio climatic situation doesn't harm the water which is the most important Yeah, thank you. Okay. Thank you with that. We can break for tea Sorry, I didn't understand that there was a question in there There seems to be a hard stop somewhere You well especially your first part. I remember we picked up the The right of way Which is now the sixteen point seven and we thought ah two months into them Ha one and a half here. We were still busy if you see how many experts looked at it from all kind of Infrastructure people mobility people planning people. They all looked at it and came in the end with this with this right of way, I remember one and a half year we worked on it and And So it is it is not something but what what came out of the air and and by two technicians It was made and it didn't work like this. I mean it is well thought of That's also why if you start changing that you have to go again through that whole process I mean it is this quite well This is actually the point what I wanted to say the rest will come on The email because I see you're looking in time and things Yes, please any unanswered questions, please write them down and we will pass them on to Toby. Thank you But and so now we can break for tea and see you again at 10 30 But these these experts one of them for example was focused on by a climatic design. Yeah Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Because yeah Yeah Oh Oh Oh I Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Sure I Oh Yeah Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Into the room we will start shortly all right So our next presentation is by Christo Just to say we won't be taking any questions from this presentation So please write everything down and we can then See if we can get some responses on email So Christo will be presenting on infrastructure studies Christo has been working in many different countries in Europe Africa South America and of course in India Among others he has collaborated with Roger Angi Doshi G David and Stein Christo was also the coordinator of the master plan 1999 Welcome Christo over to you. Thank you very much. Oh, yes, I hear myself When I come by Sudeva Kutun Bakam Recently, I read a fantastic book. I sent to my dear friend Pashikapur written by Indian-American names Rajiv Malhotra That book I would like everybody know will particularly the youth Wherever they come to read this book and This means the world world as one family. It's a very ancient Sanskrit saying very briefly in this book it is explained the difference in the way Easterner and Westerners Look at realities in the material world in Europe People follow always the rules of black and white The Aristotel principle I'll make it short. It's not a physical feel lesson. I'm an engineer and a technician and in the East Including India We are talking of Dharma And there are very different different context To look at the world and believe me we should learn from our differences now I Will Just mention it has gone. I know no it is one of the French philosopher who is prior to show be no names was Voltaire and he's supposed to have said I Do not agree with what you say But I will defend to the death You're right to say it This is 18th century and when he meant to the death they really meant to the death Noble man when they have a difference of opinion they would just dwell. Okay. We were sore And now I start to release a presentation. Thank you very much. I am extremely Privileged to address myself to Vastu Shilpa people I'm extremely pleased. I hope it's a final decision that Vastu Shilpa will be involved in the planning of Orville. I had the privilege to work with Shri Doshiji. I Have high regard and a lot of respect for for this great man. So this said I have a short anecdote When Doshiji Visited Orville I was Asked to receive him and To be present in all I was in the TDC at that time in charge of this as well I'm here today in fact in charge of the planning and development of all infrastructure in Orville everything And then Doshiji during a talk said look to me. Let's say look I think you guys are trying to build a silent city I'm beaming now that I was beaming when I heard that literally Because it was the first person Even among my colleagues who really understood The purpose of building Orville as the city's earth need Not any other cities. That's why I have not spent almost half a century Here to build any other city and I will try to explain that today So a silent city those who were lucky enough to listen to Helmut I listened to his presentation. I wanted in fact to listen to it before coming in He's talking about Plan mobility plan, which is not a plan by the way. It is a proposal It was taken back again by asia herb in 2005 and it is titled proposed mobility So based on a proposed mobility we started working so Everything I'm going to say today is based on reports. This is all in writing. Okay, which were made between 1999 when the master plan was completed in 2015 when I finally crashed, okay of overworked So I will refer to this report particularly the data interesting I didn't want to read all the reports. We have no time, but I have the documentation So clearly during the master plan process who was a client It's not me. I'm not you. It was a mother So a deep study of everything the mother said which now is available in the archives Mother speaks about to real too big volume. Then you know everything you have to know about What this project is and I believe the planner should read this document first Okay, and go back to the interview of Roger Angel in 1973 That very interview made a person like me come here and join There was no other reason Okay, I Was not an engineer in those days, but I had still a career behind so Now a topic is infrastructure It is necessary that when you look at infrastructure. I'm a generalist. Okay. I'm the guy. I was a project manager I was given and tired of new city Blocks to build and stuff like that And my job was to in fact manage everything is about 15 companies and everything do some part of the studies, of course Etc. Etc. So when you look at infrastructure is not just the road is Electricity at one is not here. He did a great work. I read this plan by the way interesting and very good so Water Rainwater Harvesting etc. Etc. The matrimonial lake is part of the infrastructure If it is not just, you know something to part of some decoration But if it becomes as we have been studying already in the 90s with Harald Kraft that was very privileged also to work with him That's to be useful, you know You are participating in all those studies in the past 25 years Clear everything on infrastructure and I did a few of those studies myself or commanded a few of those steps Now I read a friend of mine who was here just outside in an interview given recently Says sorry. I have big problem with my eyes That's the correct one. I have four pairs of glass This is my favorite variable since the last year So the development that I see someone who is a good friend Everybody's my friend hopefully The development of the town was told for over 20 years sitting trees environmental and topographical concern I don't with the two parts first. I agree But with the topography, I don't okay clearly I don't And I have based all presentation today on this matter With example only of the crown road I need to say maybe at this stage Yeah, this was written in 99 the topographic work is absolute priority This work must be funded without bargaining any longer You will understand that the conclusion of this talk why I say that in 99 So complete the topography work and financial king of all level and benchmark This now is ten years later in 2009. I concur with with Toby what Toby told you is correct. I mean He has been we have all been suffering of the situation Toby has been described Let's be very clear So I Was told not to talk too much about the past But I like the beat I have was always you won't understand the end. Okay, the crown past is story So almost that's part of another report only meant for planners, which is ready and I will send on request Almost everybody at least in Oroville Believe that to build the road or a street is an easy task That can be done by anybody whatsoever and believe me. I have heard that a lot Even a banker or dentist are both my friends But is it really so I'm trying to show you that it is not like that. Okay so Again 99 I say for example, we have to come to the core scale For each kilo kilometer of road. Okay, correct That's an aspect nobody wants to talk about we never had any money Okay, I was telling just before I had no intention to say that but you know when I was working in TDC I had to beg really and literally I was on minimum maintenance to do this work I had to beg for 500 rupee to pay petrol to go to work and I had to use a Computer which I had to pay for for my minimal mess. That's the condition of work. Most of us have been facing needs some Some devotion to go for this sort of but no regret. So there is no point Wasting time to make costly study If reported to remain in drawers gathering dust for ages Concur with what to be told you know, I guess Before we start this study, we have to be assured that the fund for the planet infrastructure are available or will be forthcoming in a reasonable span of time And I made a written note 16 years later is from another report This concern where about the same in 2011 there is No provision for parking along road and radials. I am asking question. I've been asked to design the crown road I mean do the calculation a serious job. Okay, and Again, I explained on 2011 there is no clarity on any mobility design yet Only proposals. I was shown this drawing just an example to be honest This drawing you see what it is that the final I took me time to discover where it was in the 2000 part 2 report of Mobility, which is a cat copy of Of building up, okay Really zero interest and then I see something like that You know, this is and then I do not understand This I call it the potato and I was shown this plan. Believe me. I am in TDC in 2009 or 10 by I can say it's not here by Jacques blue. Okay Very proud. That's what we are going to do. I say, okay, then I Believe and I still believe needs to be a bit of a real look and we'll see at the end. It's very important So a decision for the architect a few points, believe me many in fact a Decision has never been taken regarding the general or zone-wise Plaint level of buildings Do you know that? No, and I made recommendations that today every architect. This was done 2011 when I made this report Should know about this when you will build any blocks any building. It's Preferably in conjunction to the height final level of the rain course of the road And we discovered two points and I did only of all the road you drive today What I am responsible with excellent architect because I'm sorry engineer Dear can I go to meet I want to mention Very brilliant Very very brilliant engineer case we work together successfully many years So the print level that something I'm guess I have your attention Because we discovered in what to modify the re-incuse level simply to accommodate The solar kitchen imagine the size of the building You will understand why it was like that when I did also I'm responsible for the From the roundabout to Malakshmi home and beyond I think the guy a parkour so I did and even beyond that that Calibre and the vikas trial Because I am responsible We did dick and I did the work and Look at Arati and I come back and these points are very important. That's your future. I'm talking mine is Okay, so pay attention to this Every building which is built here and close to a road of you see that's a basic Print level has to be higher You have seen the rain I was told oh, this is just no no this rain is going to stay here That's another matter and accordingly the calculation will have to be modified and Basically dick. I know it is listening doesn't exactly agree with me because we took already Precautions and then we will look at the center Okay, I'm sorry this load of techniques and volume what I'm saying Cannot help You inform yourself after so when the first stretch of the crown starts I am supposed to you know I'm getting in charge of doing this but Some very very eager people start building the crown road From the solar kitchen about 30 meter until there can I intervene Because the crown road is built in this fashion You see Sorry, I should have written this. This is the waist and East and then this is the same on that side Matrimandir everybody recognized I could never become an architect. I don't know how to make a drawing. Okay? I'm very bad at this but So we have on the rich the water shed with two slope. Okay, so it is about north south More or less so Matrimandir then some eager people start building the Crown road and they do it this way Follow the existing term and I I tell you right away Because Edmuth was so upset I Refused and in fact Propose dick and I a different drawing we didn't want this round about Publicly now to the whole world on YouTube. I say I was against around about and when we say you are against something You propose something obviously which was far better and for reason I better not say today but This was not to happen and we have to leave we were on the boat which was badly dimensioned By the way, because even the center has to be ridden. So Professionally speaking, I don't take this kind of stuff. I want to make it public. It's not me Okay Good Really, I would have not left this room without to use it. Good So now Yeah, so that is what I've been showing you know, so Yeah, that is 2009 it happened when this work starts and by chance I Have of course all the correspondence we informed the working committee. We don't know where to go The police stop this madness Let us finish this the study but curiously, you know that something in 99 I wrote something like It's a bit after that but They already there was a hurry to build these things I mentioned it in this report, which will be available, of course again I mentioned it. I say 99 Very we must do circular road. We must do this. I'm not against it. In fact, I have tried to do that very much I'll make proposal for the future of course, but almost finish So if we of course if we had carry on with this the road would have been floated Now they are floated but for a different reason which you are going to mention Very important again. Yeah So the level of road in 2012 will be adjusted because some building were already built say Arati, I mean at the end of Radial of vicas radial for example, I was there on Monday just to have a look before I come here What is happening? I will tell you so the level of what crown road is today is What it is. Okay, but it's fluctuating. Also, you are need to know one thing We never built normally. We don't build a road also flat like that. I mean Talking of the longitudinal profile, all right the center of the road The center of the road if you want now I have my wearing course like that and the road preferably, you know Make small thing exaggerate, but there is for the water flow is much better solution This is not a flat surface. Normally normally could be This is a science Textures to study Sorry, I forgot as a microphone so So that's how we became involved in the design of the crown road because we saw something which was not okay and You see, I don't know in the elsewhere in Country I was born I Feel more Indian than anything, but the divine choose to get me born there Not responsible you asking So in that country there are precise rules rules. There is laws if you are an engineer I always take this example.  I mean at least where I you know where I studied it was like that and something they put in your mind You know and you are responsible blah blah blah and it is true You make a mistake you can learn in a court of law and I studied law in correspondence to my Kind of job, but it is very much useful by the way, so What happened at that time? That's the best now we come to something even more interesting And a catastrophe so today the road itself is Built and it's a road We are still talking of a road is about this Okay You see, I'm sorry. I hope you see I want wanted a much bigger black cover so but We have been four meter fifty Four meter fifty only so what I show you here is supposed to be seven meter. All right So I have given in writing That person who was in charge of road service said all this of course in a report and interviews They all we will do the full with later the full with won't be favored yet Anyway for a long time He was correct And all billion road developer will simply have to add paper blocks on the inside And the outside he says it's quite possible and I replied in that and oh it is it is But you make a big mess out of it. All right Because this curve if it had been you know four meter fifty a nine meter road Basically, we are done design and maybe even Double slope maybe I'm not sure Speed of vehicle blah blah blah parameters to build a road is what I don't know how many So that you know to know any planners need to know That this what has been built today. I Don't know how much you can keep of it You may have to redo everything. Maybe not. Let's see other people Ask you the right planner is genuine They will tell you what to do in this case, but you need to know you will have quite some problem Yeah, and This is informed in 2012 You see I don't write those things Just for people to not read it Very sorry I'm not blaming anyone in the room. Obviously. I'm talking to the poor that where the camera that present So Hello, very good. We go short and believe me. We are most true When we did build this road surface We of course Had to take care of the rainwater So we did some culvert like this and then we built Percolation ponds all this was calculated carefully believe me the distance between the ponds Etc. Etc When for example in the vikas radio you have this situation It was just the road was built and monsoon ray started and of course arati got flooded We discovered rapidly that their mason had blocked This we cemented by okay, and of course they got flooded so on Monday I went and they did a drive along the crown road and then the Vikas radio and I saw that the whole system has not been maintained That new buildings that have come up I've simply just and I have seen it happening. Yeah, it's easy to check because we still have the files You can go and check everything I say This has not been maintained. This also was part of my job to say look road service You need to have a budget for this. You have to maintain those things twice a year at least In Guiyan it was done every week the grass grow seven centimeter per day Okay, and the whole system is made like that on roads on roads not inside the city. I'll come to it And it rains four meter Good So yeah, I saw that the fact that the road will have to be realigned to seven meters a good opportunity To come to a proper drawing For me the challenge for engineer. Wow. Very happy to hear that good work our questions now is a crown circular and Here starts the sad story in a way from my point of view in 2012 All the elements were there to prevent The what has happened recently could have been easily prevented But it's not the purpose of this meeting to explain why I just hint at this I'm not judging anything. I don't care. I'm always looking at the future and always looking at solutions That's very clear. That's the only thing I'm interested. I'm never in my profession You will see what follows. We are never for or against something We are there to help the realization of something in harmony with everybody Listening to everything. There is no pro and cons. There are only people working together To make something happen. That's my way of opposing how to work so after the cyclone once Forgot his name that destroyed about 40 percent of 40 in some place more of the plantation of trees in Oroville People were quite there is also context in what happens there. That's why I am not planned to mention this but briefly People who planted trees were done it for 50 years. They they were sad. You see what you know, so Getting a few trees was a very sensible matter at that time But we had to go on with the crown rule. That was our job So we had a meeting because people wanted to the green people and I could say I am also a green guy Very very much by the way Very much I become one okay so The convey this the discussion is about the circular and the right of way I Will come to this right of way later So we are discussing whether we carry on with our road cutting the trees on both sides which are necessary for the 16.7 Matter In fact to be is correct Also, I remember him saying that just now in this presentation It has taken many many years and intervention of many people Was not only me of course. I have been always trying to build a team with others Cannot do everything so we try to build a Consensus on the right of way Brought for example all the norms. I have still there Everything I could I brought files from South America to Oroville Imagine the cost full of project I have been managing so we had reference Was very useful either. I had maps. I had calculation everything holds the By the way all the cross-section you see the master plan is based on material I provided for the small history Whatever so and then we had this discussion for example with dear because I studied in Germany also and I work there There was a small difference, you know where to put the cable at this depth, etc, etc Etc. But Finally, yes 16 meters was not so much and depends where you talk For example, I really was very much Liking the roger. This is what the road service is now Presently asked to do I got it recently from my friend at the road service. Okay, not a secret document That's the Roger section and the roger section. I won't discuss today as many advantages. Okay And I work with him also on this and a part of it at least So 16 meter 70 is not a big deal All right But there are ways to do the infrastructure maybe better Then they are done today When we come that's soon. I have time. What how much now? Very good and make it easy and hopefully not collapse before so But you know So some compromise are about to be made even road service and let's make some diversion Etc.  Because in one of the old version There is a tram and if there is something that you really don't know if there is something That was uniting the green people as a city planner. It was a tram You don't know that. Yes. They were in rev even that started to make some experiment They put their money in rails, etc So I was explaining I say at that time. Yes, if we want an electric tram I was hoping it was a for example the curves cannot be too sharp. It has to be a circle It depends what you want now. I'm told maybe no tram And here a small note. I don't like trams. I Would have never advised to build a tram in Oroville building around it But that's the difference If the difference tell me there has to be a tram in Oroville, I mean through the voice of the ignorance Then I will build a tram. That's the point and then I concluded It's 2012 10 years We didn't cut the trees. I myself had twice almost an accident in this barrier around this to Kaya And I knew it would happen, but it also nearly because of my eyesight. I had problems I'm not happy still. It's one of the worst meeting. I attended in Oroville when this decision was taken and then I explained saving these three trees three Means we are going to have to cut many other ones So infrastructure will take a totally different route We will have to clear it And then it was taught by Helmut something very important He says the infrastructures Have to be going the shortest way possible Why I simply cost You see in everything we do even in Oroville you have to consider cost You have to consider long-term cost like maintenance is like I say We are unable to maintain even a simple channel Waterstorm By sorry, I mean I am a squation. I hope there will be answer soon by someone 25 years I am asking this question. Nobody answers. Thank you. Okay, so What about the land Again, we are in 99 The most important criteria for opening any road Is that the land on which the road is planned is fully owned by Oroville? 99 views it's obvious At the moment there are plans to open the crown road as it was there at the moment There are plans to open the crown road at all costs Despite the fact that some of the land across its path is not in Oroville ownership. I didn't even remember writing those things By the way all this report I have dug now. Oh, you know, hope someone will maybe listen I Come to the present time in 30 seconds and I'll make some proposal the plan calling calls for circumventing these plots obviously by doing so the value of this plot will immediately increase and by the way The underground cable ht cable has circumvented all those plots adding to the cost That's clear That's a fact. I'm sorry. I don't talk fairy hard facts What type of traffic? Back to a billionaire and Helmut 99 interestingly as this report was in progress that's the one I'm talking the 99 report is a something The development group received a letter from a resident questioning the implication for a real development of the ever-increasing number of four wheeler honoured by O'villea Serious to do was made we hired a student We met traffic study, which is one thing that of course I mentioned for the future You have now to redo the entire traffic studies complete. I still have the excel file If you want you'll get it free so So the letter started a debate in this community was widely followed debate So listen because it will happen again. It's already happening and Again shows that how the matter of choice will influence our decision process in the field of infrastructure against the same Technically speaking if we respect mother visions for a wheel there should be no polluting vehicle in the township This would include motorcycles And I was using one of course to do my work Shallow will resist the pressure pressure of the indivisible realistic Minded and evolve a policy regarding private ownership of cars Or let it be and have to design its roads infrastructure to accommodate such traffic The building a report is not on the table when these lines are written This would mean to design the town with parking space. It's a good business. I'll tell you a good business and Build the road to take care of the pollution the noise the fume, etc. And again I was surprised What of the villagers? How private our roads will be and now we know so now I'm almost Sorry now the future So we had rather speak of a street Not a road Are really this vocabulary must change once for all if we have to come to some meaning full agreement? Okay, we built a street By building a street we invite More compact infrastructure by the way And on models which were already what I'm going to show you were proposed Already as I say already in the early 2000 When I made proposers model, I was told Paisa Lee the usual refiner will there is no money blah blah blah no money No Before I The first 20 or so years I walked in our wheel. I was building houses for people.  I built your house to last a lifetime Oh, no, no do it cheap and then of course I had to come back with my workers and say, okay Thank you very much. In the meantime surprise that increase something like inflation so Wish list I came with my wish list today. Thank you for the opportunity so This model when you built a road a Street now I speak of a street. We have the opportunity to redo the whole thing. Okay, what we can say we will As a pevers we can save by the way that was one the idea This is a slope and then you have a different type of curves here And the water will flow Now I know immediately what you are going to tell me. Yeah, but still there will be intermediate stages I come back already. There's always phases in the world. This is always forgotten 50,000 no Phase okay 50 years 3,500 you planning with phases So we can keep the same system of channel and percolation pit for the time being by the way with this we simply on the top at Calculated distance we have to remove some curves and the water will go very simple can be done No big deal because expect the thing you have to calculate is this very important when heavy rain That the water does not stay here But later on for me, this would be only one phase when we have little money. Let's do that at least But whichever phase you do in this business, you don't have to redo the everything Okay, this I never propose solution like that. I Was my first job when I was 20 I was economist of construction Started with this I would cause one wall blah blah So now wish list I Also Roads the brief I have to come to this for the first wastewater treatment plan in over in 99 I had already before I even did the studies detailed study of a hole 99% All the I send it to you by the way the study of the wastewater treatment plants in over I Could see that they were taking too much space for example in the blocks that had to be developed for Habitations, and then I will not functionings So I prepare a brief and in 99 I had said I didn't know I would do this that was one thing that had to be done And I will insist I wrote to one recently I say the right of way For the underground piping to the wastewater plant and the location of the wastewater plant Which I know where they have to be already this is that you can explain not today as to be marked now To avoid a really Done of the catastrophic things that has been done my brief has not been respected by the engineer They were supposed to do it. That's a different conversation, but one day, believe me This will become a fact for the community to know what did happen. So with water Usually place under the road You save a lot of space is he and normally there is so far if someone has a different information There is only one risk For this pipe. They are dimension for a certain number of people That work I was been doing was for residential zone one and two 5,000 people of course for their missionings Wastewater plant in phases. This is also for one thousand two thousand three times. Etc. This has been also Done normally if he said don't what I wanted So normally it is done as I say the vikas radial I was responsible but due to a phenomena which is was linked to the grant from the Ministry of Human resources for many years the road were built with grants from the ministry of human resources Until and rightfully a keg. I was still reading the newspaper in those days. There was You know You know what I'm talking The general a content of India look into it why you should do this So because of the grant for the vehicle radial came first with build the road first and in the meantime I was preparing Study for the wastewater And then what finally happened? We build the road and we put the wastewater pipe there and not even according to my specification as I say I will one day Show the documentation about this So first recommendation and I was told by twan there will be no pipes under the crown road I saw he but I know otherwise because I even seek I have never stopped Working on this plan even now in for the past six seven years. I have never That's why I'm here today Probably on last time So I was already 10 years ago and I said saying look I had difficulty to find the exact name They are cool precast concrete Dating for cable and true Available in India in the amart In the amart 500 bucks a piece Depending on size. Okay the manufacturer you want I Would have rather like the papers Make sure that's also was a proposal was accepted at least they are manufacturing or will Okay, cheaper You can do this and then you manufacture papers. They are not doing they should and you sell them outside You make a business. This was also a proposal I made Economy of construction. So think same thing you make this you will see pondi will adopt it Okay, I am almost finished. I will make it. I have my things. I have come to my conclusion Thank you very much. I'm over Where's the conclusion? I have something nice to say Yes, yes two things This came just during a meditation. I Have no more time for the inner work I'm very happy about that so You see recently I hear people say they We don't know we say I believe that the pronoun they the pronoun okay, I Will disappear from the whole language Because it's not possible It can be only we Not they who are they? Some outside force some enemies I Don't know I Have no idea, but we this something I understand This is why I'm thanking you for giving me the opportunity to invite him in fact To come and say these few things Oh, I had four recommendations to make but I will first say that I Wanted to finish but I have to make those recommendations. It's very short. It will take One and a half minute. This is an aphorism from Shorobindo my For his treat wait There is nothing small In God's eyes Let there be nothing small in dying He bestows as much labor of Divine energy on the formation of a shell as on the building of an empire for thyself It is greater To be a good shoemaker than a luxurious And incompetent king and very short may I be given two minutes No more otherwise So This presentation focus mainly on the crown street because I believe it's the focus at the moment I will make two assertions. We are not assertions. They are facts Which are of course as I say entire things I've seen is backed by documents. I'm extremely willing to share I would like a relook By whoever is in charge today of a plan made on behalf of FMC and working committee I was in Laverne at that time and that fall on my table It was part of the problem and we had to find a solution for the use of all fallow land To be revisited They were concerned that all all this land is you know, it was encroaching everything So I will not dispute the merit of this plan. It was calling for planting trees and doing bundling everywhere At the same time the right of way would have had to be marked for everything. That was a plan. I In a later private to turn against a way right of ways right. I'm see I'm sorry wherever I work You have the land the writer who has been marked their plots, you know, where the streets or blocks everything is there That's absolutely and then infrastructure starts and then the roads In this order not the way we are doing it So it would have a many advantage I have no time to discuss this plan unfortunately, and it was not the intention, but I mentioned this is a determining factor in what has happened Definitely, we have the proof Now all reports I wrote in 20 years they call for the same thing and in fact the remark I just made call for this Then you explain understand why it didn't happen report call for in this all reports call for inter disciplinary bodies Constituted of any order to DC BCC ABC a lot for all those who are not familiar with this But those who understand FMC working committee and Orville Foundation I went so far as to propose a many time a twice yearly conference on Development planning where everybody was represented Many the guys with the money and the review foundation as facilitators Never happen Sorry should have happened and it must happen now Otherwise you go nowhere. We keep on fighting with they or they or we or whatever I have a really short and what about the village of the region? Or I'll make something I didn't know I would say today But I heard Helmut Mention how many workers in Orville when we are 50,000 Then I reminded something I said at the beginning The mother gave us guidelines how to build the city and how to live in it Etc. And one thing she said Everybody forgot except Paulette That the city had to be built by the Orville and and only you can check what I say, okay? It's really it's written by her It's has been written we should have built the city with our own hands and we started My generation's a pioneer. We just did that. She said we should hire workers only When there were absolutely no other way Okay, so this is explain things. I don't see 50,000 workers in the future of Orville, but again, this is not a question that the planner have to answer What type of city? I never was in favor of letting anybody buy a car in Orville. I have money I buy a car. What sort of life is this? What message does it send? Again question, I believe it needs needs to be considered in view of the last sentence. I recommend to rename the crown road Either As crown street if you want It's a street When they would tell you, you know, the stretch we built what 200 meter three weeks later people were begging us Speedbreakers the kids that night they drive. Yeah, so you built a circular Piece like that and you have the formula one Of Orville like 24 do more or you know, yes, and I don't like cars So Okay, so I would call it a street make it a street make it happen. All right Transportation of the edge. I will explain this is easy to solve without having them to cross we can do I did study for Maroma exactly on that For their new factory So call it street of unity That would be a great name. That's my proposal was waiting for people to The street of unity. Thank you very much namaste and Good work, I have nothing much to say just one thing for those who have not answered I have to go home. I am exhausted. Thank you very much. We have been very attentive. I appreciate and I wish you all the whatever if I can collaborate. I have already since months so interview I gave was early November for our will today, okay? It was not I didn't know these terrible things would happen. I have no idea Thanks a lot. I am vacating please start. Thank you crystal Yes, and for everyone whoever has questions to crystal, please write them down and we will pass them on to him I think we have two minutes to stretch out our legs a little And then we will hear from so has a name. Thank you I To coordinate One two, one two. Already seen this, this is the green one also. Already seen this, new one. Up to this time. That's the trash and the other side. This is the trash and the other side. I'm still in this room right now. We're back to the scarring manual. Yeah, some tech. This is one condition. This is one condition. This is one condition. You never go back to the benefit of the man. One two, one two. One two. Yes, yes. One two,