What's up, everybody? I'm the hook, and I just woke up. Mm-hmm. It's a gather we're You know Jesus Welcome to the hook blade podcast a show about all things Assassin's Creed. I'm your host Lawson. Hold on. You have you have to you have to do Like a play on the on Odyssey you have to do it.  I just I can't do it man. I know it's okay. Oh Shit, I think one of my dogs just just ran into a wall mm-hmm Dude, it's been a while. Yeah, it has it. I want to say it feels good to be back But then I'd be lying. I've missed you so much. Well, I'm okay. I should I should I should I should elaborate I am not happy to be back to talk about what we're talking about today. I am happy to be talking to you awesome.  Did you play it? Yeah, I Would like to talk about it, but I've already forgotten everything that happened in it. Yeah I I would say the same, but I only I only got past the title sequence You didn't you didn't You weren't you weren't desperate to learn Avor's connection to Ireland I was that desperate to learn the Wrath of the Druids the Wrath of the Druids Why are these Druids so damn angry? Mm-hmm.  It's like, oh, we've got a boy king reluctant boy king We've got a mysterious lady.   All I know is Wrath of the Druids is pretty boring It's a little frustrating that I learned the werewolves are just kind of a hallucination It's like I would have preferred them just to go all in and the actual werewolves in the story Yeah, just like have a werewolf story like I would have preferred that that probably would have made me play it Who's the werewolf attacking the village? What's that about now? It's just when you do the trials things you you go to the little altar and you Take some shrooms and then you just Fight a fake werewolf Yeah, hey at least even though Wrath of the Druids isn't good at least there was a great high quality Assassin's Creed game as recently as 2018 for us to play and talk about Which one is that? Dude Assassin's Creed 3 remastered of course. Oh, yeah No, we're good. We're gonna talk about Odyssey. All right, so I mean here's my actual first question for you about Odyssey because Origins you dreaded playing for years and then you played it and it miraculously Warmed its way into your top three. I know for reasons. I still don't quite understand So that gave me some Not I won't say hope because it's not like I want you to like Odyssey. I don't like Odyssey However, I did just think it would be fun and funny if somehow you liked Odyssey Like that would be pleasing to me because as you know, as I've said many time in this podcast I very controversially prefer Odyssey to origins. I'm sure you don't but go ahead and and and share with the class Yeah, I don't prefer to origins. I'd say the my raking is in release order So origins first Odyssey second via Valhalla third So, okay, I think Odyssey is better than Valhalla very My like not by much, you know, because there's parts about both that I don't love Yeah, but I I spent about just under 40 hours doing Odyssey and I mean it felt like a like a lot But truly it wasn't that much Valhalla was a big commitment. Yeah, and I didn't quite enjoy Every moment of it and I didn't enjoy every moment of Odyssey But there are more moments of Odyssey I enjoyed the moments in Valhalla that I enjoyed I will say and I suppose this could like kickstart our first kind of like Bullet point I guess about Odyssey it truly feels like the only game in the in this series as That I've played besides Valhalla, of course that does not feel like an Assassin's Creed game. Um, yeah, like There are elements like origins You know dances on that knife's edge a little bit it flirts with that line, but Odyssey straight up I don't think it like straight up does not deserve to be called the odd Assassin's Creed And if it hadn't subtitled or something that have been less egregious, I think but overall yeah for sure like there are Just so many elements of it That feel so foreign to the series And I always was aware of that but actually getting to play it. I now realize how How just how alien it does feel compared to even origins You know like the dialogue choices That's a big deal going from origins that at least has a A linear narrative, you know and like just the fact that seeing a mo capped cut scene in Odyssey is a surprise It's it's it's crazy, you know Yeah, I will I will agree with that point even though I prefer Odyssey to origins It's certainly not on any grounds to do with Having a more Assassin's Creed friendly experience for sure.  I just think that I guess my I I've said this to you recently But I don't know if I've said it on the podcast The way I tend to contextualize the three in the myth trilogy Which it's difficult because I pretty much don't like any of them But I also there are a couple things that I like about one over the other typically and so It's it's difficult for me to wrap my head around like what my actual ranking of them would be as a group But I found that at least in terms of story origins was Not very ambitious Not very well executed Odyssey story was not very ambitious But I think pretty well executed. I think the story actually works decently well Valhalla Very ambitious Not very well executed. So on those two spectrums really they all have these they all chart these different points I guess more or less My feeling is that I think Odyssey's actual narrative is like Structurally works pretty well and is kind of underrated by the community at large And I also found on this playthrough more directly comparing it to origins That some of the slightly more systemic design choices things to do with the open world and with the mercenaries and with the cultists and various systems that are just that are given a little bit more Breathing room in this game. I found that experience to be a little bit more Satisfying.  I'm getting kind of my main thoughts out there But let me know if you would like to respond to any of them. Oh, well, I just wanted to touch I wanted to I wanted to say something about the mercenary system because I do have a note about that and you brought it up So I feel like that's a good time to do it So mercenary system is interesting because I liked it at first I thought it was like at first it put me in a lot of interesting scenarios worked out pretty Well, like I liked that there was a bunch of a bunch of them. They were unique They had like special little abilities and it does have that systemic flair where they just kind of pop up However, I did have a problem with it as the game went on It it became kind of punishing especially like With how they can just pop up pretty much right next to you. Yeah That was a little frustrating I found myself with a bounty almost at all times and I felt like it was mainly because I was doing things that the game Incentivizes me to do And so I understand that that is necessary to keep the mercenary system Constantly affecting you because if it could just be lost in the background, then you're not really You're not really participating in it. However It sucks that the only way to to interact with the system is what is through Obstensibly something bad I'm interacting with the mercenaries because I've done something wrong quote unquote and I don't know if that's the best way to do this kind of a system because it shouldn't always be a punishment It and honestly part of it to me feels like they were trying to do some kind of like gta cop system because they show up almost instantly and sometimes and Like I'll be in the middle of fighting a guy and the mercenary will come up behind me and and enter the fight and Yeah, sometimes like at first that was a lot of fun at other times.  Yeah, they're definitely a little aggressive I had the exact same feelings where the mercenary system is kind of a mixed bag on one hand There are things to like about it as you said I also just find the premise of Here's a screen in your menu and there's this like linear Lineup this power ranking of mercenaries and each time you kill one you're moving up the ranking You're getting more powerful like that is a yeah, it's an effective visual metaphor for progress It it makes me want to kill mercenaries because I want to get further on the screen However, at a certain point The mercenary system exists more or less entirely as just one of the many many ways in which I see Says fuck you for trying to do stealth because if you're in a fort And you've got a mercenary on your ass Like they're because their ai is very like you can tell what they're doing They will walk pretty much right up to about 40 meters away from you and then they'll just start circling you And if you are seen by them or anyone else in that moment, then they're on you and Obviously fighting a mercenary while you're trying to be stealthy in a fort is not ideal You can never pretty much one hit kill them. So you are left to Either try very very hard to not be seen by them Or you admit defeat open up your map and pay off the bounty. Yeah, or you Just say oops and you fight them and then you're out of stealth And now the entire fort is on your ass because that's how stealth works And they've let the brazier reinforcements are coming and you might as well just reload a save Or jump off the side of the building get to cover and meditate for a day There there were then some instances at first where I was in a fort and a mercenary would come And I would just be in combat because I wasn't really trying to do stealth this playthrough And then I would run away and the mercenary Sometimes would be left fighting the guards for me and that always seemed like useful Like I'm taking advantage of the system that didn't have happened very few and far between And if I just feel like if the mercenaries just were Less often right on top of you then those instances where they did pop up would be like tense But when it's like every other fort, it's not exactly tense anymore. It's it's just expected I also don't understand why the mercenaries don't fight each other Why are two mercenaries fighting me at the same time? Are they going to split the reward? Why don't they try and fight each other first? right Like I had a five star five star wanted level whatever you want to say Uh, I think it's five little Spartans that you can get all at once Five little helmets. You were at five helmets. I was I had a five helmet wanted level And I think there were two mercenaries that started fighting each other I don't know for certain though. Like I don't know if it's just some weird aggro thing Where they somehow aggroed each other. I have no idea, but overall like yeah mercenary system was a cool idea I just feel like in execution. It's a little overpowered and it happens a little too often to stay exciting It would have been nice if there were more ways to interact with the mercenary system that isn't Just you did something wrong. Here you go. Like I would run into a mercenary like out on the sea and then that would make sense Like I can get some loot and kill a mercenary at the same time. Cool That was a really good example of sort of marrying the like oh like the systemic design Keeping it like consistent with itself when you're on when you're in the naval gameplay Yeah, and having it exist across the world like that. I really appreciated. Yeah And why can't I take up bounties on other mercenaries? There was like one I found throughout my playthrough that where I could go kill a mercenary Like why can't I take those those bow like I was no other mercenary wanted And I the only mercenary that is wanted in this in the in Greece also Actually, I found many times if you go to the message board there are bounties on other mercenaries All right. Well, yeah, maybe maybe so then I guess I just missed them But also why can I not? Enter a fort, but other mercenaries can just waltz on them when they're looking for me That's annoying Yeah, the mercenaries like they they telepathically They all know they're on the same side And you're just you you could never possibly be in someone's I mean, that's the other thing too We don't have to get too deep into this because I think we talked about it a lot when blue was on the show You guys can check out that first episode with him about historical accuracy. I think it's episode 15 or something I'll link it in the description But the whole like red versus blue element where you have Athens and you have sparta and There are it's frustrating because there's not a lot of depth to like choosing a side Obviously, you're a mercenary. You're not meant to be choosing a side. You're meant to be doing whatever any of them ask you to do But one of the ways that Brace the illusion is just like you said, I mean sometimes I'm helping the spartans I'm literally growing down with the wolf of sparta and his son And I can walk into a spartan for it and they will all try to kill me Like I thought we were friends for now kiddos like why are we why are we fighting and that honestly that element Pretty much led me to for because for a time. I was like trying to be strategic about it I was like well Who is more beneficial for me to help in this conquest battle? Yeah, things are sparta one is harder and one is not as hard, but I get better gear But there's no long lasting A benefit to to helping one over the other. I know at a certain point you realize if you just Don't worry about like choosing sides or whatever and just do what conquest battles get you the most stuff And that's the most advantageous position to be in it's just and I guess what they were going for because you're a mercenary But it's like Cassandra clearly has sympathies for certain For certain Athens and sparta people. So why like Clearly she's not in the middle and just doing every just doing whatever costs Or sorry doing whatever pays her the most like Maybe sometimes but they're definitely sometimes where she's emotionally invested her mother is like Aspartas awesome Why like she obviously would would have a similar sentiment as at some point.  I guess but you know plagues happen so like Both of the sides it's not like there's one right one wrong and I appreciate that I can see that that's what they were going for But at the same time my first playthrough I spent wondering like what the significance of That system was because I was constantly able I could kill the leader in a particular area Killing a leader only seems to matter if it's furthering some goal on the conquest map of Making one side control it over the other But there's never a goal in that sense. There's never a I would really like for Athens to run grease or vice versa I don't even think if you wanted that to be your goal that you could actually accomplish it I don't think you could kill all the leaders and finish all the conquest battles In a way that would give one side total control because yeah They're kind of happening over and over again anyway, and sometimes they happen on their own and There's all this stuff. So it's just it's a very I appreciate that it's there as a system because It's something to engage with and interact with that gives the world a little bit more color but it is really Frustrating if you want to actually have it have any significance because it really doesn't to anything right And and and the rpg element there just kind of actually get in the way because yeah You're not going to be able to turn Athens over to sparta You know no matter how much no matter how much of the military strength you or nation power you you deplete in Athens It's not going to matter. You can't do a conquest battle there It's because yeah, you know that that's just too Ridiculous to to have done and so you think about a game like revelations that does the kind of you know Two factions of enemies both hate each other and I think that works on a linear game better because it's like This is the world you inhabit deal with it and and honestly it kind of pretends to give you a choice in the matter It's like well if you side of a sparta then your life will be a little easier won't it? and it's it never is and it won't ever be and Giving you a choice in the matter almost rub salt in the wound because it's like great So now I have an illusion of choice in this system.  They are just factions both of them hate you, but they also hate each other So have fun turning them against each other if you can with bombs or crowd control methods And just keep doing you because they don't really care about you and you don't really care about them odyssey tries to be like well, they're you know There's it explores the political motivations and disagreements between those groups better than any of the other games mentioned Which is cool But it also gives it that layer of paint where there's a map and there are sliders and you can Give one side more control over the map you can you can affect the the outcome But as we've already explained you're not really affecting shit Something else that we we kind of explored a moment ago when talking about the mercenary system that I want to jump into because I had a different experience in this playthrough than I did on other ones is the whole idea of just Stealth and the build system in odyssey because I've had so many odyssey stands tell me Or just say and I've heard them that If you don't don't think you can do stealth in odyssey, it's because you're not Building your character, right? And I thought maybe there's some truth to that so what I'm going to do on this playthrough is I'm going to try to Uh make a stealth character. I wore the etio armor, which as far as I had or could tell You know got you the best bonus now There's one thing I will say that a lot of stealth builds on the internet tell you to do that I did not do Which is there is apparently an engraving you can get that turns your Essentially it turns your crit chance into your damage But or your assassination damage, but it captures your health at 25 percent and Either I didn't have this engraving in my menu or I did but I decided not to use it because I get nearly killed all the time in open combat and getting reduced to 25 health was not going to be viable for me to not get desynced all the time So I will give the caveat that maybe without that engrave maybe if I had that engraving I would have had an amazing stealth experience in odyssey but Even with all of my gear and all of my engravings and all my stats directed solely towards What gives me the most assassin nation damage percent? What is going to be the best for an assassin playthrough? um It's still pretty miserable because you're still Going to run into enemies you cannot critical assassinate at all and you're still going to Run into mercenaries left and right now. I will say this Later in my playthrough. I thought I had to go into the settings for some reason I was looking at the gameplay settings and I I saw that you could change the level scaling and I thought Hmm Changing the level scaling actually might go a long way because You know if I had fewer enemies that I could not one hit kill then certainly my stealth experience would be a little bit more frictionless and sure as shit enough With light level scaling I actually had a good stealth experience.  I could do it So I guess there's that But I still can't give the game too much credit because that's still like 30 hoops You have to jump through just for the sake of having like a basically functional Pillar of the game, you know, they say it's a pillar of the game design. You can do this shit in stealth Making it kind of work was that difficult But it still works at dam site better than it did in vahala So credit for that There's there's definitely a lot of steps you had to go through and I'm also wondering like let's say if I was trying that Am I first playthrough? Oh, no. Yeah, that's the thing.  Yeah, what what were you going to say?  Where did they say that? What did they say? No, they just said the rpg mechanics were here to stay and a lot of people have this idea reasonably so considering these past few games that if they go with rpg mechanics then stealth is not going to be good and While I see why that is because as I've explained before I think it's pretty clear that ubisoft Knows it is easier to monetize and incentivize microtransaction purchases off the back of Increasing or improving your combat stats Like I'm going to buy this gear because it has better stats that'll make combat easier sort of thing Whereas, you know, it's not really quite the same to to motivate those decisions on the grounds of making stealth better So it is certainly the case in these games Origins the least that Valhalla the most that Like the game is actively fighting you from being stealthy in odyssey It was the you know the mercenaries and the level scaling and critical assassinate in Valhalla It's the fact that detection is broken and social stealth doesn't work In all of these games they're saying oh you want to be doing stealth.  You can do it stealth is possible Yeah, I completely agree with you and I know we talked about this like, you know privately but 100% I don't think that just RPG mechanics being in ac means that stealth or any of those other classic elements are dead on arrival Because origins proves that to be not the case obviously Like you said there has been a track record of of those things Not encouraging classic ac elements to stick around But it doesn't mean the same thing as it will never be able to happen You know if we got another origins next year There's your stealth system that works. There's your RPG mechanics that aren't egregious and yeah I wouldn't have had that opinion before playing origin So I guess that's kind of a evolved position I have down the RPG mechanics. So I agree with you 100% Something I've been wanting to ask you about We might as well get into I've been saying four years now that Odyssey's story is actually pretty good How do you feel about it? I think it's fine. There are parts of it that I think are good like In terms of the family drama stuff, I think that's compelling. I think that's actually yeah That's refreshing for Assassin's Creed Thank you with like a fractured family instead of oh my dad died or my mom died Well, what's neat is it actually has something of a propulsive dramatic question In this case, the dramatic question is can Cassandra Reunite her family and there are all these different threads, of course for each family member that spin out from that that you have to go All right. I met my dad. That was that was cool. Oh, I have a real dad.  She's oh, but my brother's the bad guy like there are all these different sub stories within that that each kind of have their own hooks and The question of can Cassandra reunite her family not only is it good as like a reason to be doing what you're doing in the game. It also is just a uniquely, I think Interesting entry point for an rpg story because it's not necessarily world-ending stakes I mean they definitely work with that with the cult of cosmos Like oh, they're they are evil and if if they have control over our bloodline That would be really bad for the world. But at the same time, it's not ever really so much about that as much as it's about Uh, can I get my family back together? And what would that look like and do I want those people back? And there's a lot of choice in how you handle that how you handle those family members and the story at large So like even though I always give the caveat that it's not a good assassin's creed story. There's no assassins in it. There's no creed. There's just greek historical drama and If that bothers an assassin's creed player, well, it bothers me too. We're all in agreement But I do think it is a well-written narrative Like I think that it plays out in a way that works and that I actually had some investment in what happened and in the choices that I made so Uh, are you are you saying pretty much like you say it's fine? Is it not good in your opinion? Or is it just like it gets the job done? There are moments that are good like the moment when she's like the wolf of spotter is my father Like that was actually like wow. I actually am excited to see what happens next I didn't even know that and I I've talked about honestly with you many times Can somebody confirm or deny I had something of a mandala effect experience with that line in what way? I have a vivid recollection the very first time I played it. I was talking to you about it in like dms on twitter because I remember the experience that I was given a number of dialogue choices to select And one of them was the wolf of sparta is my father And I thought that's such a cool line And I get to choose it and On one hand, I think it's cool that I got to choose the line But on the other hand like if you don't choose it you get a far less epic Sort of title drop moment and I remember talking to you about that because you were like, yeah, it's bullshit What if I don't choose it then I don't get the cool line But I I replayed it and I even like checked this against like I looked at videos of gameplay upload from 2018 It's never a choice. You just say it no matter what Maybe you're thinking about like talking about demos I was specifically concerned with it as a title drop line as the moment. Yeah, right But what I'm saying is like perhaps like what your recollection was like because you Varnivas you can tell him that Demos is your brother actually or so I think it's varnivas at least so like maybe that's what you're thinking of Maybe I got to be mixing it up with something because I remember that conversation And I remember you telling me something about your brother is the bad guy Maybe who knows this was like 16 years ago. So all right I just wanted to throw that out there as a Mandela effect possibility right in the comments If you remember having to choose to say the most part it killed my father I do want to say can I want to I want to say something about demos if I may please so This is this is uh, this is great. All right, so the thing about demos, right? This is probably like the best instance, but it's one of many But it's probably the best example Of if this game was led specifically by Cassandra as we are we we believe is what the original intention was That demos reveal would have been 10 times better because The marketing being flooded with Alexios's face. I know instantly that that's Alexios. I know that's that that is the other Sibling I know that that's her brother. It really deflated the moment However, if I just saw demos and thought well, that's a handsome lad And didn't know that that was her brother then I would have had that reveal with Cassandra I would have been like, whoa, what is Cassandra acting so weird for? like The fact that in that moment when he presses her hand and they both kind of experienced the memory like that is awesome And would have been amazing had I not known that was Alexios so that all kind of comes around to like if Cassandra was the marketed person and I wasn't so inundated with what Alexios looks like and sounds like That would have been a reveal instead of just oh It's more of a development now because I know about Alexios already Obviously, I knew that demos was the opposite sibling. So I knew that going in I still would have recognized Alexios Even if I didn't know that demos was the opposite sibling because I've seen the trailers for the games Yeah, it was at least at the time a relatively interesting choice To have the other gender character Be automatically the villain in a way that like you didn't know that was necessarily going to happen unless you were following leaks and rumors and It was kind of cool just on the concept alone of like Oh, I could be playing as that dude, but he's the villain like and that's not something you'd think if you are so removed from the possibility that But also like there's no world in which they don't market one of the protagonists at all So they were never going to be preserving that surprise You were even going to see their face when you were choosing which character to play as so I don't think there's any world in which Well, no, well that what I'm saying is that's if Cassandra is the main playable character Oh, I see what you're saying. You're not saying what if the trailers didn't focus on him so much You're just saying if there was no choice of gender protagonist Then That moment would be more effective. Yeah, you're right. It's still a cool moment. Don't get me wrong I just think it's deflated because okay, that's the guy from the trailers I know him and that's the thing like moments like that Moments like the nicolaus encounter on the cliff moments like You know the the prologue scene or some of the flashbacks like there are all of these scenes in the game that They're actual scenes and I That doesn't sound like like a glowing review, but You look at origins and so many of the scenes are not scenes. There's no change of Character motivation. There's no push or pull. There's no shifting power dynamics. There's no tactics. There's no motivations There's no I want something and I'm trying to get it And we're seeing how that conversation is playing out. It's like all entirely just Bayek and other people Uh just delivering exposition. It's just Bayek and Aya talking about the people they have to kill And they miss their son and it's not a scene the character is not learning anything new That there there's no emotional experience on display It's like it's just not telling a story in odyssey It's telling a story pretty much the whole time as far as those main story centerpiece moments are considered and so Even Valhalla like I think while it's much better than origins as far as like Having those kinds of storytelling things actually happen in their scenes Valhalla starts to fall apart on a more broad structural perspective of like We really just spent a hundred hours on this story and it's really not that deep, you know So so I I give odyssey a golf clap. Yeah, um golf I guess there's two things I wanted to say based off what you just said One with the scenes in odyssey are yes, they're like they're well acted and well written But not only that but they look incredible. They're actually like directed. There's like a cinematography. There's 100 percent There's there's a cinematography and there's like a look and a feel to them and they are amazing There's some of the best like cutscenes I've seen Like I was so surprised about that and I can't help but think What if this was just the game and there were no like ridiculous like back and forth a b dialogue It'd be that it'd be it'd be great And speaking of the wolf, I guess I wanted I guess I could share the anecdote because I decided to kill him Yeah, um That moment was the best part of odyssey for me because I chose to kill him and she like Hangs him over the cliff a little bit and she's like I want to see the light Go away from your eyes Bitch And then she stopped and I'm like, okay great that was a non choice then and then pretty much as I am saying that As if the game is responding to me She takes her spear out and stabs him in the tummy And it's great and it's a mo capped cutscene and it's great and Then center comes up and it feels like a genuine moment and there's like action consequence And it's great and I feel like the choice actually Made that moment better because I got to choose How does kassandra feel about in this moment?  I think you might be right because I mean my favorite sort of choice based moment is Is also a side is also a response to nick allows which is um, you know later on in My playthrough I'm killing.  I have a choice in that scene.   Yeah now Some of the wind was taken out of those sails by learning from you over dm that Even if you try to kill stentor in that first encounter Uh, he does survive and he shows back up so you can have this whole moment I would have liked it better if if this was just a cool story moment that you never got to see Right. Yeah, and it was exclusive to you Yeah, because there is something nice about there being moments that only certain choice players get to see Yeah, but odyssey as far as choice goes it's a mixed bag We did a whole episode on dialogue choices and stuff back with putrid Obviously, you couldn't really weigh in at the time because you hadn't played odyssey um, but my my my greatest like Praise to the choice system is that there are at least a few moments in the story where you feel like you're making a choice and That you feel like that choice will will have consequences whether or not they end up really Doing that is maybe a different story, but At least the illusion of choice in those instances is powerful. Valhalla on the other hand like I don't think there is ever a single choice that really feels like it matters I think the one choice I remember from Valhalla as having to make any decision about was Ivar and whether or not I should send him to Valhalla But then even though I didn't all of his brothers treated me like they knew I had Like they went. Oh, yeah, we know you gave him his axe so he could have a Warrior's barrel in Valhalla and I felt like literally the game was just refusing to acknowledge a choice I made So I can't even give a credit for that. I digress My my criticism with the choices in odyssey is how they lead into the endings because I want for for two things to be true about endings in regards to player choice One is I want them to feel like there are natural consequences for the choices I made And two that they are, you know substantially Well, actually, I guess it's just the one thing never mind one thing I want them to feel like like the ending is a good is a natural consequence of a choice I made Right. This is my third playthrough every time I've played through odyssey I've done it on the perspective of saving everyone's life and not killing anybody purely because I always wanted to save demos and my first two playthroughs I wasn't able to and to my knowledge the only reason I wasn't able to save demos on my last playthrough was because I told my mom That I didn't think he could be saved. Wow, that's that's so funny because I did and that must be why I was able to save him You were able to save him at the end. Oh, yeah That's that's wacky cocoa bananas because I because I pretty much told her I was like, yeah I'll bring him back And then like an hour like six hours later. I'm back in that choice I guess has some but like literally there's a moment on the mountain when you can either like be like You're not leaving this mountain alive or you can like try and reason with him Why isn't that moment also integral?   Or did you say no, you're coming with me? We're family. No, yeah, I mean, it's it's still integral I guess let me rephrase like it is integral But like why could I say to my mom? Hey, I don't think I can bring him back But then literally when he is there I am trying to bring him back and that doesn't work. That's silly Yeah, exactly.  Hey, the cult is using you and telling him Hey, you should stay with the cult forever. Like it's not a dramatic choice But there are a few specific answers you have to give in that conversation for him to feel like I'm not your puppet clion and Then to decide later that he might not be Demos anymore You would not I think a reasonable player actually giving the genuine answers to those to those questions to that conversation Could be fully well-intentioned and trying to to save Demos with every choice they make and still make the wrong choices So that part also frustrated me when it comes to the dialogue choices generally also I feel like They just make for wildly inconsistent characterization Yeah, and the the amount of choices Sometimes only being two options and they're like pretty much black and white. It's like you can either have Cassandra say I believe in honor or I believe in money and it's like well, maybe in certain instances She believes in money and certain inches she believes in honor It's like that that's that's like literally walking dead like season one level of choice where In but they're literally seen to see and you can have certain characters love you and hate you from scene to scene It's like it's not consistent. It's wildly inconsistent and Also, I don't feel like Cassandra hasn't arc in this game. No, do you think so? No, I don't I don't really think she does have an arc I think there are ways you could play her if you were trying to give her an arc You know something I kind of played with on this run through is I had Cassandra start out by giving all the cocky answers You know, you could be like I am a god You can be like, you know, I'm xyz But then I started to kind of dial that back as as she was doing things that I thought Would have given her more character growth and more perspective That's purely something that I did for my own enjoyment. It did slightly deepen my character experience on this playthrough, but You know, who's gonna do that? I had to be three playthroughs deep to even know I could do that So I feel like I feel like Like morality systems and these in these choice-based games help with keeping you in a in a path If you are If you're going for like, you know a certain morality Like a certain place on that spectrum Chances are you're not going to be deviating from that and and making inconsistent choices And so that kind of keeps you with having a consistent characterization throughout. Yeah playing playing mass effect right now I am paragon as fuck, right? And so Yeah, you have the option to to do renegade in certain instances, but why would you it's it's not advantageous You know, right? And so perhaps you lose out on like true ultimate freedom because you're being punished for making a neutral renegade choice But but if that gets you a better more consistent story I'll take it and there's a lot to be said for why those morality systems They're kind of relics and and I'm I'm okay with them not being as popular as they used to be Because it is kind of like a fairly simplistic and game.  Maybe that should triumph over those other things Um, because I think in this instance that would make some sense However, you know valhalla sort of did that with sigrid at the end where um sport for valhalla guys if you if you haven't played it Where you know, you've made a good five choices at this point about whether or not you were respecting sigrid's leadership and As long as you haven't made more than like three of those five choices as anti-sigured Then you can choose at the end that actually you're my brother and I respect you and he'll come back This serves the idea you're talking about that you can end up having a character arc is avor Some extent where if you're saying fuck sigured the whole game and then at the end you bring him back Hey, congratulations. You just arched yourself um Conversely though, you know It's not really that deep of an arc and it also ends up feeling like your choices don't matter Because you can undo them all at the end.  It's not going to affect the ending I also pretty much said fuck sigured in many many many moments And I still have the option to be like hey, buddy come back with me and he did so Right it didn't feel like you had an arc it felt like That the game wasn't like responding consistently to your inputs more or less and Darby's statement on that at some point afterwards It might have even been in a response to our episode on that twitter thread where he was kind of saying like The ending of the game was not meant to be a referendum on the choices you made And that sure is an interesting idea that I I understand But also at some point you have to recognize you're coming up against these these expectations people have for these games that if I'm playing a choice based RPG You want your choices to have some weight in the end if your choices don't have weight in the end people get Really pissed off about that and I think they tried to thread the needle on that and do something where You're you're not beholden to your choices entirely, but they still have some impact and I don't think that worked for everybody, you know Which is fine. Not everything has to work for everybody. Yeah, it's so weird to be like hey in this dialogue choice In this dialogue choice based game Your choices actually don't really matter in the end. Like that's not that's not a that's not an encouraging That's not a sign of encouragement not even a little bit and and it's something that we have to think about and talk about because We spent so much of the lead-up to Valhalla saying if if choices are here, but less Important that could be good progress in the sense that like maybe we would take a game Where choices are sort of this surface level element that's just getting you more into the character But aren't really affecting the story in dramatic canon altering ways That if you had proposed that idea to us in the lead-up to Valhalla We probably would have said that was a great idea I think and then I think Valhalla changed our minds about that to some extent and playing odyssey. I definitely come to the conclusion that If you're gonna make dialogue choices part of your game and you're gonna say that they're a big part of your game do it Better, you know not then odyssey, but then Valhalla. I think odyssey. Yeah, I would have liked to see more done with the choices Even then odyssey already did but still I think when you look at some of the more The bigger the big names of choice-based games like even mass effect, which like I said, I'm playing through right now You know, you get the you get the five or six big choices and the rest are just there to Bring you in bring you into the world. There's a moment where Demos is like you profit from this Wars as much as me. I mean, why do you care about who wins or whatever? And it's like Good point Demos. Are you gonna respond to that Cassandra? I guess not I mind Yeah I suppose I suppose like to to Truly answer your question. I don't think that there was any moment the story that was bad I just felt like it meandered a bit and I guess that's just a consequence of the grind and an RPG game Not not not being able to consistently go through the main quests at all times Um, yeah, I just felt like it. Yeah, like at a certain point I am like doing these random fetch quests for stentor and it's like I don't care about you I care about my family. Yeah, I guess more Demos would have been interesting Like just more Demos in general. I don't feel like I knew Demos very well besides that he was my brother and he's corrupted I definitely think it's fair to say odyssey suffers heavily from Fetch quest syndrome Especially in a lot of those side arcs run up to Hippocrates Uh, hello Hippocrates. I would like one plot point, please Uh, oh if you want plot point, there are three things that I need you to do Okay, I'll go deliver medicine Right and that isn't an advantageous position to be in as like at the center of a choice based narrative because you feel at the Mercy of other things and other characters.   Yeah, great stuff.  I am deciding that and it's a nice breath of fresh air from the constant TDM of the main quest of having to go and do things on other people's accord I want to go and do this because I and that's what I'm choosing and that is why The main quest line needs to just be the the the cult tree and let you do what you want That's the ultimate mercenary choice-based thing that you could do Fuck all this family stuff. Let's just fuck up the cult Well, you would have you yeah, but you would have the family stuff like peppered in there and yeah I also think that's why the mercenary system feels a little awkward at a certain point because it's like, okay Now I have these two systems the cult and mercenaries It would have been nice if there was a way to merge the two Because I feel like after a while you start Putting the mercenaries in the background and now you're wearing out the cult would have been cool if the two Kind of became one big entity.  I'm sure that's happened to plenty of people But it's like one of those like I mean it never really happened to me that way in my other two playthroughs So, you know fun times on that. Yeah, that's definitely cool Between the cult and the mercenary and and then the naval The naval stuff That those things all combine to make me enjoy odyssey's world more than I enjoy origins Which I know is controversial because a lot of people Um really love egypt and really love the like level of detail And I've seen a lot of criticisms for grease and for odyssey's world About its design that maybe jacers can DM me about what he means when he says it's really bad Because I'm not sure I understand why I feel like a lot of the things that make origins world so Detailed and interesting are still there in odyssey if maybe to somewhat less sort of an extent But those systemic things and the naval element really just make me enjoy the world more I enjoy playing around it more. I love naval. I love sailing from island to island My only complaint is that naval is not as big of a presence in the game as I would want it to be Yeah, it's not as necessary for for most of the the runtime of the game as as it is and you know black flag obviously Also, you kind of because most of the naval missions that you do in the main story Like I something I loved about black flag naval is the sense that a lot of those naval encounters were really like handcrafted with specific terrain and like arenas that you'd be working in and there's this level design feel to it where This number of ships in these positions and this Size and shape of an arena gets you a certain combat experience that feels handcrafted I would have liked more of that here, but it's not really here.  It's awful, but I did I did put an I did put some energy into it I I decided to get a certain set of armor that I felt Would would would be advantageous.  You can well. Yeah, so I had level three ring of chaos because I only did the warrior tree I didn't do any other trees.    So I was able to use it a lot more often Which is kind of the only way to make combat really viable with a stealth focus build So just like you I had this different experience of like I got to customize my combat style to actually be what I would want it to be And that that that should get at some points Yeah, I mean it definitely felt rewarding when it's the problem is is there was a lot of grind to get there But once I got there it was like, okay, like I feel like I accomplished something Um, right because yeah, like I pretty much Combat became a science for me at a certain point because I'd run in I would I would light my blades on fire I go to the toughest enemy do an overpower attack and then Usually have enough to do another overpower attack and then I could do the I forget the name of the ability But it's where you stab them and generate adrenaline points each time I would deplete my adrenaline and then use that get it back up and then I would keep going and and uh The elemental damage and stuff, you know, I could spread it to a bunch of enemies and just let it Slowly take their health down This became less useful with mercenaries because they're very spongy the thing about odyssey is Compared to origins combat at least is like origins combat all the abilities that aid you in combat feel supplementary odyssey abilities feel like if you don't have them you're not experiencing the combat in any in any Positive way and so that's fair That's not that's not to say because like you could say that about like a dragon age game I'm just making the the distinction that odyssey combat is more like dragon age than it is like origin It's more abilities focused than it is about the actual process of right You're in a combat encounter. You're stabbing. You're dodging or parrying, etc And that's why I ultimately prefer origins because I I prefer that focus over like let me just use my abilities But I I give credit where credit is due it does feel at least somewhat realized as an ability focused combat system Yeah, and that's I mean that's honestly what I liked about about odyssey is that The abilities gave me something to think about it was like on a macro level choosing the abilities that would actually best suit my play style and character build But on a micro level how i'm using them in combat. How am I juggling their cooldowns? Uh, who am I targeting when I use those abilities? There was a lot more for me to actually be processing Then in origins where I felt like a lot of the time It wasn't really Strategic in combat like Yeah, there's the kind of strategy that happens in any combat encounter where you might choose to focus on the enemy with the lowest health of the enemy that's being the biggest pain in the ass But because there's not really much to do as far as tools or Moves or combos or things outside of your your regular move set Uh, you know I didn't it didn't tickle my brain right.  I felt like You and I will probably just for it for time eternal Have to agree to disagree when it comes to combat and assassins creed. Yeah. Well, yeah, because we never agree We never agree on ac combat. That's true So Odyssey I feel like I'm out of things to say It's a complicated game It's it I think it's fair the people who are like, you know what?  I'm like, yeah, I get you I also think the people who are like, you know what? I actually enjoyed this game for what it is I see why someone would enjoy it. You know what I mean? Like I get it I do but I also like I don't understand how you view odyssey as like This incredible game and yet like you don't think something like like like witcher three does that A million times better. You know what I mean? I well, well, you're you're saying the general you not me specifically, right? Yes, yes, okay good because I was gonna say I don't think odyssey is amazing No, um Yeah, no, I I I will agree there. There are many games that have done what odyssey does a lot better But I see the allure of that that sort of the gameplay loop of both odyssey and origins They're pretty similar in both with the forts and the stealth puzzles that may or may not be present in them and Leveling up your character like it is it works on our brains That's the thing even though we recognize that it's cynical and frustrating and we kind of hate it Like when we play these games we get somewhere in that That dopamine loop of I'ma clear this fort. I'ma complete this objective. I'ma get that gear You know awesome. Yeah last episode. I think it was Yeah, it was last episode You guys were saying that like the fort stuff and everything was was worse in odyssey I don't think it's worse. I think no it's it's Worse I guess by the metric of that there is more of it to do but plenty of Main quests and stuff like send you to forts just like origins does so I have to give odyssey credit It doesn't do anything origins didn't there's just so much more of it I think in the context of that we might have been talking about the the prospect of having to do all of it Because there is I think more right. Yeah. Yeah, if in that case hundred percent Yeah, but as far as the main story is concerned Yeah, no, I mean not going to be that that challenging to when I when I 100% of these games It took me 60 hours to 100% origins and and literally clear every single map marker Including doing the story odyssey that number is about 90 hours.  It didn't even yeah, it didn't even register on my on my on my weather forecast There's not much to say about it either other than that it's dumb it's it's about as bad as origins is and it's not much I guess valhalla is better simply because it's it's better presented, but I guess, you know, yeah, yeah So odyssey we've been on a real odyssey in some ways we've we've been on an odyssey with this entire podcast which is Over a year old now. We've been doing this. That's something is that true. Yeah. Yeah, it is Jesus we started in april. I think we started in april or may of 2020 Jesus Um, I certainly didn't think we'd last this long. So that's what she said Hey, yo, but we're done now. This is This is it. I don't know how to how to like make it sound better. Look, there's a lot of just egregious terrible bullshit going on at ubisoft right now and If we had not said On the last episode. Oh, we're gonna do odyssey It's time to do odyssey if we had not said that I think we both Would have decided not to do this episode at all to just end that end the podcast right there because Beyond what we think about the the game series and its trajectory as a whole lord knows there's a lot to be cynical about there It's also just Not fun to be avid members of a fan community for a product that is made by ubisoft where over the last year since the initial news broke of The terrible work environments hostile work environments sexual harassment Um, and over the last year despite ubisoft's insistence is to the contrary.   I don't want to support them If none of that was happening it's possible. I might have said fuck it and bought The dlcs for odyssey so I could actually have played those and talk about them But at this point, I don't want to give ubisoft any of my goddamn money So, yeah, I don't see how we can keep doing a fan podcast for a franchise that at this point Without some Acknowledgment of these issues without their being tangible change The next assassin's creed game could come out this month and I wouldn't buy it That's how I feel right now And that's completely independent of me Not liking these because all honestly if I played vahala for 120 hours despite it being the game It was you know, I would play the next one. I'd play it I'd subject myself to whatever garbage it could end up being but I don't want to give them money I just don't and I don't want to be a podcast that is advertising their products Uh, not that I think we're pushing any copies on the show But we're definitely celebrating it in a certain way.  It was like our assassin's creed Commitment was just deteriorating because of everything and now this is like Just the final straw Like it's it's it's difficult to be a fan of something that like is not being made for you anymore And especially now that it's being made by certain people who are not being held accountable and Uh, are not representing values that you as a consumer or player have um, and so Ideally those things get addressed, you know, ub forward is coming up Hopefully they will actually acknowledge something within ub forward and not You know like pre made video before it like last time Jesus man, could I mean just think about that literally last ub forward We were having this whole debacle and they didn't address it during it I think that will be indicative of some actual change if they Mention it on their fucking livestream Probably not though probably not though and honestly like I mean, let me be clear. I feel silly even Doing this at the end of this episode, you know like We've just spent an hour talking about Assassin's Creed Odyssey and now we're bringing out the heavy shit and you know I'm sorry that we did it that way, but I it wasn't like there was really a better way to do it um It's just that yeah this is the situation and You know, we didn't want to just drop off the face of the earth without telling you guys what we're doing But that's part of why this episode took so long for us to make too, you know And if we had and if we had done it first it would have been like, hey Here's all this garbage that's going on at ubisoft. Anyway, let's talk about Assassin's Creed Odyssey Yeah, we're there's really no good way to do it, but But yeah, I think like many people in the Assassin's Creed fan community. We're definitely We're still in the process of figuring out like what are actual places in it and what there is to say or do About any of it because there are no easy answers to these questions We just know that we can't really be doing the podcast the way that we have Yeah, so We just want to say thank you so much for listening to to these 34 episodes Uh, we hope that in the last really really fucking shitty and Okay, my dogs are being really really loud. I'm certain the mic is picking them up.  Um, and we hope that during this really troubling year that we've all had and this really weird and frustrating and plague and shit All this garbage all year long It would be it would be lovely to think that Any of you guys's days were made any better by listening to this podcast I hope that was the case for for some of you because we did have fun for the most part making it I think and I think it's very probable very possible if not probable that Uh, tim and I will keep doing something. We'll we'll do something.  I like podcasting. Do you like podcasting? Yeah, that's okay We we might find another podcast to do or something. I like it. All right So we're not going away forever probably but But hookblade as as we know it right now is done Yeah, definitely taking a step away from Assassin's Creed generally, which will be nice. Yeah, I think for both of us to do And if you have any thoughts and that you want to share of like something you'd like to see us try our hands at next Uh, or something you'd like to see us do let us know you know because We're creatively bankrupt and we're mostly out of ideas.  I've never played any of them Well, we've we've both been playing Certificantly better games than Assassin's Creed generally much better games of Assassin's Creed. That's right. I I've been saying too All throughout my odyssey playthrough that I'm that I'm gonna have to play through Ghost of Tsushima again. It's like a palette cleanser right remind myself what good ac looks like so I'm looking forward to doing that too Yeah overall, thanks Thank you guys. Uh, well Thanks, I'm kind of speaking generally to like Assassin's Creed like I can't really say thank you to Assassin's Creed. So It's it's been something it's been a big part of our lives for a long time. You know how they say it's been a pleasure Well, it has As much as Assassin's Creed kind of sucks and maybe always has kind of sucked I will always have a special place word in my heart and and hey, tim You got to think of it this way without Assassin's Creed. Would we be friends? Would we know each other? I'm probably not As as our friend irakley said on twitter recently It with no irony Maybe the real Assassin's Creed was the friends we made along the way I think that sums it up perfectly and that's probably a good note to end on I have been the blade and I've been the hook and we won't see you next week Oh my god, love you guys