Welcome back. Here are my three guests, the violin of which you will see a little bit more at the end of this conversation, Joshua Bell, Sigmund Rohlat. There is a quote of Hubermann, which I want to read for you, that after World War I, and after realizing what is happening in Nazi Germany, he writes, I quote, I had to descend into the further depths of my soul to find the hidden link between my impulses towards art and my impulse towards politics. And then I made a huge discovery. The true artist does not create art as an end in itself, he creates art for human beings. Humanity is the goal. And in the documentary, one of the people said, you know, now a great musician wants to become a conductor, a great musician at that time wanted to change the world.  How do you respond to the huge symbolic, I mean, this filing became an icon, and it became an icon for the whole idea. And what kind of moral political responsibility is related to art? Well, this is an interesting question, and it's and it's obviously it's easy to say, yes, we should all be involved in good causes, etc. But it's a more complex, I think, issue when it comes to art. First of all, the quote at the end that you said, at one time, now a violence wants to become a conductor, and at a previous time, they wanted to change the world. I don't quite understand that quote because they're two completely different things. Becoming a conductor is enhancing yourself as a musician, and the other saving the world is something else. And both are things that to put them parallel like that, I think, I wouldn't subscribe to that. And you can do both. So I don't quite understand that. The other thing that Huberman talked about as far as politics, it's a difficult question because there's something about, I mean, art is somehow transcendent of politics. Politics, when I think of politics, I think of, I think what he did, what Huberman did was more humanitarian than political, I would say. But I guess my association with politics is something not so positive. And I don't like to associate myself with political parties and politicized thinking. I think the art is so far above that. It's something that brings people together. Politics puts people in groups, and that's something that I don't believe art is about that. I don't think it's about the individual and raising one's self-worth and gives you meaning for living in this world. It doesn't talk, I don't believe art speaks about, symphony speaks about politics or communities. It's about being a human being, and I think that's more important. Yet at the same time, there is also this older school, and the most representative of that one is somebody like Furth Wengler. And it's also in the documentary that Huberman deliberately refused to play at the William Philharmonic by Furth Wengler. Although Furth Wengler also had this great faith in music and Beethoven and Bruckner, and Bruckner again. It's just the Furth Wengler issue is interesting because it's very easy just to say, oh, he was terrible for not standing up, and Huberman did, and he did not. It's also very complex. Huberman was in a different position at Furth Wengler. Furth Wengler had his orchestra, who he felt loyal to. There are many complexes. He could have done more, I'm sure, but I would hate to jump on the bandwagon and make him into someone terrible. I happened to have been reading your book recently, and it's funny that I actually bookmarked it, and I didn't intend, I didn't know we were going to talk about this, but this fantastic book, if you haven't read, Nobility of Spirit. We say fine. Which I really, really love. But interesting, there's a quote that you put in here from Goethe, where it says, he says, a good work of art can and will have moral consequences. But to require moral ends of the artist is to ruin his craft. You put that in the book. But also, since we're also talking here, I think that's the part of the title of our symposium here. We're talking about, what is the title of it? Holocaust and the power of music. Exactly. And the Holocaust, you see, after all, the Holocaust was, well, at least the one in the 1930s and 1940s, was almost exclusively a German enterprise. Now, with respect to that, the minister of culture, a very able guy, very glib, gables, decided that the most German of all arts is music, you see. And so, most musicians, almost all of them, very able musicians who were part and parcel of the great orchestras of Germany were fired. Now, when Germans, the Kultur Träger, as they were known in the 1930s, came into Poland, one of the first decrees which was issued was that not only were Jews not allowed to play in the orchestras, but the Jews were not allowed to play German music.  I mean, how could you not play them? And you see, it really is worth noting that Jews, you know, I have heard of an quotation from a great musicologist in Warsaw who wrote during the occupation that Jews risked their lives and they risked certainly going to prison at the beginning, only prison threatened them for playing, actually, in these underground, for example, concerts. What was the most favorite, actually? Certainly, at that time, the Ninth Symphony was more often played in the Ode to Joy than any other single piece of music. So, you see, it's interesting, you know, how Jews, those at whom all of this was directed, how they thought about these very subjects. It's interesting because it just shows how art and music does transcend politics, that if you look at the program, the Israel, you know what the program was, that first big concert with Toscanini and the Israel Philharmonic. They've just fled Germany and the horror of Nazis. You know what their program was? Brahms Symphony, Mendelssohn Midsummer Night's Dream. It was almost entirely German music. I think that's fascinating that they would feel inclined to play German music after they've just left this horror and yet they did because, I mean, this music, it transcends. It's not about being German, it's about being a human. It shows the greatest humanity in the music. And I think that's the service that music really provides besides standing up in front of Congress. It's making the audience feel like fellow human beings, making them know themselves through the music and therefore I think it makes the world a much better place. It can, having music and I think it has an important place in society. It seems to me that you're living almost, according to the biblical commandment, Sakur, remember. You also said it in the documentary. For you it is important to remember. Why? Well, that is, you know, there is, in Hebrew, there is a, almost a commandment, the door of the door, which roughly says you have to communicate from your generation to the next generation, the door of the door. And I can only tell you personally that to me that is particularly important because you see the last words that my brother at the time, 18, told me when I was hiding and when he joined that small group of partisans, again he was the youngest at 18 and the oldest was 24. And he came to that place where I was hiding and he told me always to remember what I see, what is happening here, to tell those schools, those who do not know about what is happening, what I saw. And well, I took that with me and certainly my family knows and the people who know me know about what was happening during the war. That's that obligation which we Jews have stays with me. So the door of the door, it is our commandment and I feel that it's not only what happened during the war because you see what happened during the war to us is still happening today to others. We also not only have to tell what happened to us but we have to do all we can to help those like Rwanda for example. Rwanda shouldn't have really allowed to happen the way it happened, the United States and other countries should have done more. But it's not only Rwanda, what happened in Yugoslavia, what happened in Sudan, these things are still happening, what's happening in Syria today, you see. So I think it's wrong to be authentic, it's wrong not to talk about these things and about and we're trying to do something about these things. Joshua, is this do you consider yourself also part of a larger tradition and there is something you have to transmit as to make sure that it will not be forgotten? Well, certainly I think that's it's important and I involved myself when I can in the ways that I can, you know. I certainly believe that that remembering is extremely important, I'm not alone in that, I think we all of us here believe that and so whenever I have a chance to be a part of something, I will because I believe that's important. You know, you're faced as an artist, it's interesting because being an artist is quite a, in many ways, a very selfish thing because you have to be looking inside and not outside, you'll be looking at yourself, looking at the music and what is truth, what is all these things, so in some ways you could call it selfish in not a negative way. So you have this, you have that but then you have this, you want to do things outwardly and help as well and as an artist is one of the nice things about being an artist, performing artists is that we have great opportunities to do something, to be a part of something and I get letters almost every day from some organization, all of them are good, all of them are good causes, you know, for animals, for the environment, for you know, there's so many things and they always need, you know, someone to help bring awareness by what I can do, I'm not a, I'm not a talker, I'm a play, I play and I can go and people buy tickets for to buy a table at the event and they raise money and I can, and so I love to be able to do that, I host in my own home things for the charities that I believe but I can't do them all, you know, that's the problem, you can't do that, you have to pick and choose where you can be of use and use and still have enough time to concentrate on your craft and your art. This as an introduction to the thing which I came to realize that for many young people the Holocaust is no longer part of their consciousness, it is, it's really a thing of the past an almost forgotten past. Siegmund, how, how, how to respond to that? I mean, do we have to respect it and say, look, you know, we moved on, it's now 70 years later, other things happened and you know, we understand this Minister of Foreign Affairs in Poland or are there any compelling reasons why we should not forget? Well, there certainly are compelling reasons why we should not forget if only to prevent regrettably these, I mentioned three of them but there are more than just three mini holocausts happening almost all the time and so certainly we should not forget, I think that you could say education, education, education and, you know, I remember when I was in school we still had certain subjects which were being taught like history, geography and so on. Today young kids, you know, spent most of their time really not reading books but actually playing, you know, with all of these at least in the United States with these mini, mini computers and so on and I think maybe that's one of the reasons why fewer and fewer people know about important things and are less concerned about events like like Rwanda and Syria and so on. I would like to think so. I also, I worry also frankly about how many young people and those who come after even these present young people will be as interested in serious music as as they were before, as we were all before and I don't know whether you, whether your experience is, I mean even in the last few years similar to mine that I see, for example, I know when you were playing in Chastahawa my family, my grandchildren were with me and I tried to interest all these other people who also came there to bring their children and so on and it was, it wasn't really all that easy to interest. I'd like to make a couple of points. I'm going to address that in a second. First, when you talk about education, one thing that education teaches us, so education when we learn about the Holocaust is six million Jews were killed. Statistics like that, that doesn't teach a lesson at all. I move a film like this where you see a story, a personal story, does much better. It shows much more powerfully, I think, human nature and I think we need to remember in this way by hearing stories and really understanding it, not just statistics because I think you start talking about statistics and comparing whether 3,000 people that fell in the World Trade Center is less valuable than the six million and which lesson is more important and who has bragging rights for being suffering the most based on these numbers. The fact is that you have to look at these people, the victims as individuals as well and not just as these groups because you get desensitized to the numbers so I think that's just one little thought. The other thing I'd like to end maybe on a more positive note in a way because I think this question about the younger generation has been addressed at every single generation going back thousands probably of years and the good old days where you know it's but you can look at it just like the Woody Allen movie, the one of the Paris movie I forget, he makes the whole joke about that that every generation that you realize is the same issues the same and they've been talking about lamenting the death of the the older audiences this is 50 years ago 100 years ago you see it so I'm not so pessimistic I think one of the one of the great things about growing up and getting older is that you start taking interest in things that are more meaningful than trends. As a young person you're interested in what's trendy and sexy and all that stuff and as you get older you just become more interested in things that are more meaningful unfortunately it takes most people a long time to get to that point but I think eventually you know I think there should be more younger people here in this maybe you know here today but but I think if when you do this in 30 years there will be it'll be you know the younger people will be growing up and they'll be replacing the audience here so so you will be here so I I can relate it to music classical music because we hear it all the time it's classical music dying is there's you know I'll look at all the old people in the audience where's it going to go if you actually look at classical music and what we have today the amount of string quartet professional string quartets that are touring the world if you look at the amount of professional orchestras that exist compared to the so-called heyday of classical music was the 19th century right all the great music was written there were very few professional orchestras period there were a few if any if you go farther back there there really weren't they weren't really professional orchestras there we have a much richer cultural life in classical music now I think then even in the 19th century where supposedly this was the heyday of classical music so and now we have the internet where we're streaming concerts we do have young people because it's a little bit more trendy but that's fine we have younger people that are that are tuning in to the internet broadcast of classical music youtube all these things and I think it's it's not it's not so dire I think it's I see I don't see it as such a horrible future when it comes to culture maybe I'm naive but I'd like to think about it well first of all I would like to introduce myself my name is Evelyn Nichols I am president of the Dutch Gustav Mahler Society and what I would like to ask you speaking about the power of music how do you relate to the power of music in the concentration camps you know of course that Alma Rosé Mahler died at Auschwitz just before the end of the war but how would do you explain that people can survive by the power of music certainly there are amazing stories of music that was written in the concentration camps and and and one of the things one of the aspects of music the power of music that we haven't really talked about is really is yes it's about showing us the greatness of being a human being and the great minds of the composers but one of the great things about art and particularly music I'm biased I think it's the most profound art form personally is that is the consolation it does give us you know when you're in pain when you're in pain I know this from from from children dealing with children when they have it when they're sad and they're crying what they want to hear is not how great life is and like you shouldn't be upset life is great they just want a little bit of sympathy you know you just say you're sad I'm so sorry you know and then it actually that makes them feel much better and I've learned that as a parent as a parent now that not to try to make them happy and one of the things music does is that it just you feel when you listen to great music sad music it's funny when people feel sad they often turn on sad music you think why aren't they putting on happy music is that they feel sympathy consolation because they they they feel like someone else is experienced the person who wrote this music has experienced this in the profound way and they're not alone and they're not alone and I think that's a very powerful powerful thing well I can only tell you from personal experience that every time there was a concert every one of them illegal in what used to be at one time movie theaters and sometimes in synagogues in shutdown schools there was never an empty seat and I can tell you that for my parents for all those around me these were very very important events and even when we when the ghetto was liquidated and we were in this forced labor camp the munitions factory and so on in the barracks you would have at night you would have three or four musicians somehow there was a violin somehow there was I think it was a cello but I think that it was like handmade instrument which looked a little like cello and you had singers and really these were evenings which everybody waited for and everybody couldn't get enough of that music so you see a site of from the orchestras which were organized you know in camps even like Auschwitz for example where the Germans liked to listen to that music some of the greatest singers for example Joseph Schmidt sang in the camps and actually died in one of these camps but he was singing also not only for the Germans he was also singing in Rosenheim one of the camps so music music was terribly important