Alright, hi everyone. I'm Alex Perlman. I am a bioethicist and an independent journalist and researcher and I'm so excited to be here today with my colleague Christy Guarini at the Biohacking Village at DEF CON. So thanks so much for having us. Christy, why don't you introduce yourself. Sure. Hi everyone. I'm Christy. I'm an assistant professor in the Center for Medical Ethics and Health Policy at Baylor College of Medicine and really happy to be here excited to share the results of the project that I've been working on with Alex. Yeah, we are so pumped to talk about this paper and what we really were looking for was to ask whether oversight of ethics was something that community scientists biohackers are interested in. If it turns out that that's the case, what forms any kind of oversight might take. And so, given that, you know, in these communities there are a lot of different opinions a lot of different backgrounds and ways that folks self identify we were really interested to see sort of what the attitudes were towards these questions. And then we're really excited specifically to be able to come and then talk about our findings with this paper, especially because we are really adamant in the research that we do that it's for the communities that we're listening to. And that's really what we're doing. We're just interested in what the attitudes are and then reporting that data back to the community. Um, so I just wanted to kick off in the beginning Christy can you tell us a little bit about how this project came about. Yeah, sure. I so I, I'm currently a grant funded researcher, and my research does focus on this intersection of law policy ethics and health. I'm really interested in innovation in a past life I was a patent attorney. And so, when I came to Baylor I did become aware of independent research communities and the, the work that's being done in these spaces became very interested in that work and so started investigating questions around ownership. During the conversations I was having about ownership questions, the broader more general questions around ethics and the role of ethics oversight in the communities kept coming up. So I went back to get a little bit more grant funding to drill down into those issues in particular. And it seemed like the appropriate way to do so was through an interview study by the committee and getting the perspectives of the individuals doing the work, whose work would be subjected to ethics oversight. Yeah, and I was so pleased and honored to be asked to join your research team, as someone who had been reporting on and writing about these communities for so long. So, one of the things we heard in our interviews, which definitely was something that I had encountered before was a lot of different terms for self identification. So we ultimately go with this umbrella term in the paper that's biomedical citizen scientists, but we also heard folks self identify as bio hackers DIY biologists citizen scientists community scientists, independent scientists. And so, you know, we definitely had a diverse cross section a lot of these different sort of subgroups of independent communities. But we also did a really deep dive into sort of who exactly were we interviewing and and who were our study participants. So we have a slide. Sure. And I'm going to share my screen. Yeah, so I Alex thanks for any that I think that captures well that we were trying to elicit sort of broad perspectives that were sort of representative of various communities multiple communities and activities. We ended up we did these interviews at two different conferences. The first was bio hack the planet and the second was the global community bio summit. We spoke to 35 individuals and the this table which I've broken down on the right is reported in our larger paper, reporting our findings which is published open access in citizen science theory and practice. Our interviewees well 60% did identify as male. The majority were between ages 30 and 50. They came from six different countries, but the majority were based in the United States, and specifically in the United States in the Northeast, as well as the West Coast really California. And then finally our interviewees were pretty, pretty evenly split between the two conferences that they attended. Yeah, and we also, you know, we're, we're really interested in not only the practice of interviewing that's one of my favorite things to do. And also, you know, we get all of this interview data from these amazing folks who take the time to sit down with us. And then what do we do with it right so we had this really wonderful qualitative research methodology that I thought was super interesting and very different from how journalists generally do research, even though a lot of times we get to the same place. So, you know, without an entire research team which is about five or so people at the beginning of the pandemic, we went through a series of steps to sort of get to the heart of the data and the interviews so what is it that we did Christie, what was our qualitative research methods. I'm sure happy to summarize those steps. And some of you listening and maybe familiar with these steps, but we really followed a pretty standard approach. So first we did have the audio recordings professionally transcribed, we then clean the transcripts. And by that, I mean that we took the transcripts back to the audio to make sure that all of the words on the page were faithful to the recording, because every, every word is a data point right at that point we then turn to what's called coding, which is the activity that links data collection to data interpretation. So with coding, we take the transcripts and we apply we identify and apply codes to different chunks of the transcripts. It's really a way to identify patterns across the conversations, because oftentimes interviewees will talk for a long time I mean the conversation can be your way from the question where it began right so we need a way to sort of understand and organize those conversations. So, in a very long and iterative process we don't develop a code book as a team we come together we identify codes we develop a preliminary code book, we take it back to the transcripts. We see if it works usually doesn't it didn't in this case, we went back to the code book we adjusted it etc until we had a final stable code book. At that point, we all went back to the transcripts and we coded all of the transcripts according to that final code book. We then generated coding reports and then sat down with the coding reports in order to do the interpretation work and identify themes that we knew we wanted to report in our final publication. I'm going to wrap up and I'm going to talk a little bit about what those things actually were. And here I will share my screen. We did, we did find 10 sort of high level ethical priorities. And folks noted as things that were important to them that they were thinking about, and that they felt, you know, was really a part of conversations that were happening in the community and so those 10 that we sort of picked out of our of our data as the priorities of folks in communities were autonomy, respect, diversity, safety, community consent, quality, education, altruism and good science. And it seems, you know, kind of silly to say because these are all pretty high level ethics concepts and principles that are necessary for good studies. But they don't actually map exactly on to the traditional sort of establishment ethical principles that, you know, more traditional and establishment ethical oversight models sort of use as guiding principles and so that was a little bit interesting. But also, it's really important to note that these conversations are already happening. When we went to talk to folks about what their attitudes were about ethics. It wasn't the first time that these conversations had come up and that it was it was very clear that a lot of thought is going on in the community and a lot of conversations center around these concepts of ethical oversight and how do we do good science well and do it right. So that's one of the things that we definitely saw. And I also wanted to talk a little bit about, you know, the fact that there's already this culture of ethics that exists in in these, in these spaces. But there's not exactly a sort of centralized way that folks are using to actually put their principles into practice, right. And so, one of the things that we talk about in our paper are a few different models for ethical oversight that exists and that we have sort of seen examples of or know that folks may be interested in. And I'm happy to share the conversations around those oversight models I'm going to share my screen. And I am watching the clock so I'll try and do this in just a couple of minutes. So as is probably everybody here knows the traditional mechanism for ethics oversight in the United States is called the institutional review board. It is required for all federally funded research as well as FDA regulated activities. So what we were interested in is what our interviewees perspectives are on the feasibility and appropriateness of that model as well as some alternatives to it. Given that IRBs may not be accessible to independent research communities either because they're not affiliated with institutions or they can't afford the fees that are charged by independent IRBs. So we set them out here this is we call this our stair step figure, where we've organized these models from sort of formal processes to informal processes and external review meaning external to the communities to very internal mechanisms. And with the caveat that we were not able to discuss every mechanism with every interviewee due to time constraints. But if we start over on the left, we did discuss traditional IRB review as well as some sort of experimentation that's that's taking place with IRB review in some communities so some communities are registering their own IRBs. We discussed expert consultation models, this is where outside experts by that I mean professional ethicists biosafety experts other scientific experts might make themselves available to communities to provide opinions and answer questions. Then there's a community review model, which is really a community built oversight committee that usually that the idea is that they usually provide guidance to specific projects. Then there's this idea of crowdsource review, which is a really interesting model that's been proposed in the literature and the idea is that an individual or individuals designated as citizen ethicists would provide their opinions on those projects. There's the idea of systematized self reflection. This is a model that was used quite successfully by a group of quantified selfers and the idea is that project participants get together periodically and they reflect on the ethical issues that they're confronting in their work. And then finally all the way to the right are codes of ethics which of course have been adopted in community bio and DIY bio communities. So we, again, we sought to understand perspectives around feasibility and appropriateness with these models. Yeah, and I think there was a wide range of opinions about and attitudes about each one of these and like you said we didn't get a chance to bring up each one to every person, but we did ask a lot of people about a lot of different kinds of oversight models. So there's definitely, you know, the biggest split that I saw was the difference in opinion about bringing on experts and even consulting with outside experts like, you know, folks who are legal experts are regularly knowledgeable about regulatory systems or bioethics or bio safety experts who are part of sort of establishment systems. There was a large group of folks that we interviewed who are more hesitant about that but then there are also those who are really really open to that idea, and are willing that are willing to engage in building bridges building relationships and having open conversations with folks in establishment spaces that I really am excited about so. I am to a big takeaway for me is it needs to be the right partner, it needs to be a partner who is willing to invest time into understanding the activities and the priorities of the community that is asking them for help. I thought it was very encouraging as well. Yeah. So what, what are some of the barriers to getting to these models that you see. Yeah, so what we heard is I mean as you said I mean lots of interest in trying out these different kinds of models, but significant barriers in doing so. And honestly it seems to come down to time and money, especially if you look at sort of community review models that that really will take an investment to you to establish, as well as to sustain. So, I think to me that's that's the next big question is how we can support communities in it, you know, piloting these models and helping them overcome those barriers. What are your thoughts though. Well absolutely I mean I think that you know our role is just to sort of listen and sort of help if we're asked, but that ultimately you know one of the other things that we heard sort of across the board really was that any kind of ethics oversight model needs to be culture built from inside the community and it needs to be driven by members of these communities, and not from people who are outside. And so that's, that's basically what we were, you know, trying to do with this paper was just sort of listen, and just sort of keep pushing this conversation along of, you know that that had already been happening and will continue to you know we're just really excited to to you know help continue to help and be there for for any advice or insight or whatever or more just more conversations at conferences because that's fun too. Yeah, I think we're probably at the end of time, but we also wanted to note that we built a website called outlaw bio.org and all of our research and a lot of Christie's research and other members of our research team that is related can all be found on that website. And so we're really excited to sort of share all of this with the community and build it out. Yeah, so thank you for the opportunity to share their project. It was great talking with you. Christie and thanks everyone at DEF CON for listening and thank you especially to Nina and the other bio hacker village organizers for having us and yeah hopefully we will see you next year in person, one can only hope. Thank you so much everyone.


Mae'r ddod yn bod i'n ddysgu Adam Parkinson, Renwick Bell, i'r arddangos cymdeithasol. Mae'n ddod i'r ddod i'n ddod i'n ddiddordeb llai arwain i'r ddiddor i'r ddiddor i'r awthyrs, dwi'n gwybod, ond yn hyn. Mae'r ddiddor i'r ddiddor i'r awthyr, neu'r ddiddor i'r ddiddor i'r awthyrs, a'r ddiddor i'r awthyr i'r ddiddor i'r ddiddor i'r awthyr i'r ddiddor i'r awthyr. Rennick's jet lag, he's been up since 330 teaching his students in Japan over Skype. He's from Texas, so his English isn't very good, so I'm going to do most of the talking and Rennick will interject when necessary. Anyway, our thesis here is that Derek Bailey and Deadmouse provide us with very polar opposites to live music or to live performance and it's really interesting to examine live coding in between these two, sort of thinking of a continuum from Derek Bailey to Deadmouse and how we place live coding on that continuum and I think that it reveals lots of assumptions that are often built into what we're doing that we don't properly examine about the instrument, about staging, about what it means to experience music. So why Deadmouse and Derek Bailey? Like I said, they're polar opposites and their approach is to repeatability and predictability. Derek Bailey wants, who's an improvising guitarist, I'll talk about them a bit more later on. Every Derek Bailey set is different. Derek Bailey, the last thing he wants is predictability or repeatability. Deadmouse, he wants his set to be the same every time he plays. He was playing to thousands and thousands of people. He needs absolute predictability and repeatability. I'm using Derek Bailey as a figurehead to represent a whole tradition of British free improvisation. There's a lot more people than just Derek Bailey who did free improvisation but I think he is a useful person to use as a figurehead because he was very influential at the beginning and also he wrote about improvising and about thinking about improvising. So in a way I'll be referring to Bailey to refer to the whole of free improvisation. So there's a lot of generalisations but used to make useful points and why are we talking about Deadmouse? Whether you love him or hate him, he's hugely famous and this again might upset people but musically and technologically he's quite close to live coding. He's using similar tools like a laptop. He's using repetitive beats and also he's written a lot of very interesting things in his tumbler about liveness which are worth examining. So I think he's someone who should be on our radar even if you don't like what he does or what he represents and also this is in response partly to criticism of the paper of our proposal. We're not just saying that live coding involves free improvisation although it is worth saying that a lot of live coders will deliberately put themselves in positions where they have to improvise and there's lots of improvisation in live coding but what we're trying to say rather than just that live coders improvise is that the way that live coders use the laptop has a lot in common with the way in which many free improvisers approach their instrument and that's the idea of it being this a sound source a very material sound source with very specific affordances that they're exploring through extended techniques and through different ways and yeah I think that a lot of improvisers and a lot of live coders are taking a tool and using it in very unconventional ways and exploring a certain idea of instrumentality and virtuosity and also I think that we want the paper to be useful for people outside of live coding and you know to try and put live coding in a context of the dance music culture of Dead Mouse and the free improv culture of Derek Bailey. So anyway Dead Mouse I'm not going to play any Dead Mouse assume that most people are vaguely aware of him he's very famous he does shows he wears a big mouse head but he's not actually a mouse and and he recently he published a tumbler called We All Hit Play and yeah and I think that what he does he's got a very public assault on this rockest idea that live performance should be a guy on stage actually doing something you know hitting strings on a guitar but Dead Mouse that's not what he's about and he wrote this long tumbler which we're going to show some excerpts from saying We All Hit Play and I think it was very braverym to admit it so anyway it begins with this it's no secret when it comes to live performance of EDM and the the slightly darker bit is our annotation or whatever the light of it is what he's actually saying when it comes to live performance of IDM that's about the most it seems you can do anyway it's not about performance art it's not about talent either really it's not in fact let me do you and the rest of the EDM world button pushes you fucking hate me for telling you how it is a favour and let you all know how it is yeah we all hit play and Dead Mouse shows are a spectacle and importantly importantly it's a reliable spectacle so I'm not going to read out completely but he's saying here he's got a computer it's spewing out loads of stuff of Ableton it's triggering lots of lights and it's playing lots of stems of his original productions that he's created in the studio and he says it's redundant but the important thing for him is it's reliable it works when he's playing to you know like you know thousands I don't know big crowds bigger than I play to it's reliable it doesn't break unlike my system and and then this is when it starts to get really interesting Dead Mouse in this tumbler post he starts to say how he really doesn't care about this this rockest notion of virtuosity and saying you know with one hour of tuition we're on one hour of instruction anyone with minimal knowledge of Ableton could do what he's doing there's a good chunk of midi data spitting out which he tweaks but he doesn't give him a lot of in his phrases look at me I'm Jimmy Hendricks check out this solo stuff and you know he's putting it very crudely but he's you know he's against this kind of showing off virtuosic thing and he's saying I'm sick of hearing this no I'm not just doing this I've six tables up there and I do this and this and this you know who cares what does it matter what you're doing the important thing for him is producing this spectacular live show that's reliable and he identifies his skills as existing in producing studio compositions and in that way he's you know very close to the whole tape music electroacoustic composition you know it's a tired old question but you know in you know for centuries no one ever tried to make composers themselves produce their work live it's just it's only nowadays that people have a laptop that we imagine there might be this all in one genius who can do these studio productions and then create it all live and and dead mouse he's saying you know his skills lie in doing it in the studio the live show is something set but to that and uh yeah and continuing he values the spectacle and the light showing the atmosphere and uh I think you can probably get what he's saying from there and uh and also he says I'm not going to let it go thinking that people assume there's a guy in his laptop up there producing new original tracks on the fly because none of the top DJs in the world to my knowledge have so you know I think obviously he's not been to an algorithm because algorithm is all about the top DJs in the world producing um tracks on the fly and and and it's um uh in the arguments that came after this argument he did link to a create digital musical argument acknowledging lots of people who were doing stuff on the fly but um I think it doesn't take away from the the main point that most people on dead mouses kind of pay grade and with his audiences aren't doing stuff live but a lot of them maybe they're pretending and here's a quite famous photo of the band justice who were um sweating away like um with yes the unplugged npd so perhaps a revestive justice just said look we've got good denim we make good music we press play what's the problem um and anyway now so to try and move on quickly to Derek Bailey so again for people who don't know Derek Bailey he was a cheffield musician who in the 60s was responsible for creating what I think he called non idiomatic music or free improvisation which drew on the um the sort of free jazz of our net Coleman and a lot of kind of european avant-garde stuff and stockhouse and and tried to produce music that was outside of history the idea of picking up an instrument and interacting with other other musicians but not relying on any of the props of of style or you know chord structures or harmony or rhythm doing something completely new every time you played and this was very much what Derek Bailey was about and he wrote a book called improvisation which didn't just talk about a free improvisation but traced this whole history of people um uh improvising basically um and uh I think that for Derek Bailey has a lot in common with live coders in that he sees improvisation um as this uh exploring the musical affordances of different materials for Derek Bailey it was a guitar um but for live coders it's um it's a computer and it's code and it's looking at what is this this what can this machine do um uh she thinks we should move on to the next one um yeah and live coding yeah have you heard of this I'm not going to tell you what it is um but yeah um but live coding has a lot in common with free improvisation because it's we believe and I guess in a way this is the point of the paper that live coding treats the computer like an instrument very specifically in terms of projecting on a screen what you're doing um and uh and building unpredictability into your sets um and uh trying to let the audience see what you're doing and just very very briefly and this is we're going to this point of paper just to say that live coding isn't the only people to be improvising with computers there's a whole history um in particular people like George Lewis and groups like The Hub who have improvised with computers and you could look at our paper and look at the references in that and I'm sure that you could all find out more about that but just to say live coding wasn't the first but anyway live coders realise that the um I think that yeah in projecting the screen there's almost something of showing the guitarist fingers on the fretboard within live coding um that live coders realise that the interesting gestures and things that happen on a computer it's often not kind of sensors and things like that but it's these interactions between uh human beings and code um and uh in a way that allows for kind of manifestations of virtuosity which actually put live coding far more in line with a kind of rockist tradition of guitar soloist so here we have um guitar soloist Renic Bell next to some live coder or something um and um and I think there was a very interesting essay written by Francisco Lopez called Against the Stage and Francisco Lopez is very interested in trying to get beyond this kind of uh maybe 19th century um I get them confused tradition of putting musicians on a stage and expecting them to do something and he has these things where he blindfolds people and plays sounds them and does things like that whereas I think that within um live coding it's quite traditional at least compared to Francisco Lopez in that they put a musician on a stage but they've just figured out a way of you know we know that we know they're not checking their email it's a way of exposing the instrumentality of the laptop and presenting the laptop as an instrument to the audience um and it allows for a kind of focus on spectacle um and uh again just just to um draw more parallels between live coding and free improvisation I think that there's um uh there's a lot of ways in which the live coder um well a free improvisator free improvisator will often use extended technique to explore the very limits of their what they're playing where it's the kind of circular breathing of a sax player like Evan Parker or people you know putting Keith Rowling his guitar down flat sticking things under the strings live coders you know putting together their own coding libraries and things like that I think there's there's again there's kind of more parallels um uh in basically exploring the affordances the musical affordances of certain materials so but the other point here was that so the idea is that the live coder is doing composition some kind of compositional activity live whereas Deadmauce says all of his compositional activity takes place in his fancy modular studio yeah and and Deadmauce in doing so belongs to a tradition that goes back to tape music electroacoustic music George Martin and the Beatles Brian Nino you know non real assembling music in the studio and non real time is a very long tradition and this sudden idea that they should do it live perhaps that's something that we should abandon or at least redress um and uh and here we have a picture of this Alex McLean guy um actually improvising with a drummer Paul Hessian and in the last session we saw I don't know how much was improvised but we saw these kind of blends of live coders working with um uh uh at least live musicians or free improvisers and I think it's interesting that we're getting to this situation where people are really exploring how the computer can be used as an instrument so the the last thing that leaves in is this bit about uh theatricality and uh so if if we say that there's Deadmauce he's all about theatre and then live coders many live coders are about composition maybe in fact there's a lot of live coding that can also be theatre so if it's not a continuum maybe there's even like two parameters a theatrical parameter and compositional parameter something like that in a live coding performance so you have something like Robert Henke doing this uh kind of putting code on a on a screen totally scripted but it's just just theatre yeah and I think Ryogio Cade is almost moving towards that as well maybe and it's um but um so yeah conclusion um Deadmauce and Derek Bailey um um Deadmauce is interested in predictability and he uses a computer as a studio studio tool to create compositions Bailey uses the guitar as something that's going to be different every time and live coding predominantly is like Derek Bailey is using the laptop as this live instrument exploring its affordances um unique musical affordances um uh despite coming from the dance tradition of Deadmauce but in some ways kind of almost drawing on this musicians on a stage uh tradition that's quite old in some ways um that's a kind of ramble through the slides but hopefully that there'll be some questions that that raised we hope anyway but I don't know whether we're going on to them straight away so next bank to see this one question one question yeah all right um so you you're saying the laptop is instrument of a live code but isn't it more software behind the laptop that is the instrument and the laptop is more the interface like the the interface of the piano but it can also be the interface of the synthesizer oh I would say that the definition of where the instrument is is a complex one and it definitely involves and and I think that laptops problematize that like the and create these blurred boundaries of the instrument and they're not really fully investigating that but I like to talk about the laptop instrument and I like to refer to the hardware and the software and I think live coding is interesting because it often just uses the keyboard you know the hardware and then software running on it so it really is just the laptop being an instrument rather than the laptop and some sensors or a MIDI controller in many cases it is just the laptop instrument but have you got something to yeah the laptop is a symbol for all those parts right so yeah I don't I don't disagree with the software part no okay so sorry we just have time for one question for the speaker we'll thank them again and thank you let me immediately introduce Emma Cocker who's going to deliver our next paper okay I feel a bit old school with my piece of paper here but hey um okay so this paper draws on an experience as a critical interlocutor or a writer really within two AHRC digital transformation projects um weaving codes coving weaves which is led as you perhaps know by Alex um in dialogue with Alan Harleysi's Cluck and the previous project called live notation transforming matters of performance which was led by Alex with Hester Reeve who's also here so in this paper what I want to do is propose potential points of connection between ancient weaving and live coding considering both practices through the prism of the ancient Greek concept of technae a species of tactical knowledge combining the principles of metis or cunning intelligence and kairos or opportune timing so making a return to how the term was used in ancient Greek culture I'm interested in technae as a disruptive or even subversive species of knowledge capable of dealing with contingent situations whilst fully harnessing their capricious force a knowledge capable of seizing the potential of chance randomness and indeterminacy whilst at the same time converting this to unexpected direction so this inquiry specifically addresses the human qualities of attention cognitive agility and tactical intelligence activated within both live coding and live weaving arguing that such practices might have the potential for cultivating a more critical mode of human agency and subjectivity so the connections I want to excavate are less directly to do with the shared technology computer and loom nor shared notational systems pattern and code nor mathematical algorithms or even the relationship between the resulting weaves whether digital or textile instead my approach is one of attending to what is inter focusing on the capacities the knowledges and the qualities of attention emerging in between the disciplinary lines through the relation or negotiation between human and machine to the live embodied process of decision making involved in both weaving and coding which I would argue that many notational systems seem arguably unable to fully account for so I ask what knowledges and capacities have become lost or devalued to the privileging of speed productivity economic efficiency in the standardisation that certain technological developments bring and the project in particular looks to the jackard loom which is often the connection between weaving and coding and asks what if there was a different history what if a relation between ancient weaving and live coding could be struck so indeed there are certain technologies that actively create the conditions of ignorance or alienation where as I demonstrate a technology has the capacity to be used or operated in the in the absence of any knowledge of underpinning process principles or structures so really I suppose what I'm interested in is this question can the questioning of standards and templates which I think live coding particularly epitomizers alongside an increased awareness of underpinning structures and causes within one context facilitate the same in other aspects of life so this revelation and live reworking of digital code through performance in live coding involves showing and sharing the unfolding logic of a language so instrumental to contemporary life but in which so few are fluent and we're sort of familiar with the idea of code or be coded write or be written weave or be woven the live coding and ancient weaving practices that I've encountered within the weaving codes coding weaves projects invites a much more complex nuanced or even entangled human machine relation where technology is not so much put to use as worked with the process unfolding through attending to even collaborating with the resistance exerted by the technology or apparatus rather than simply conceiving it as a tool that needs to be brought into control or mastered so as we've heard a process of improvisatory working emerges through creating the right tension cultivating an understanding of tolerance how far something can be pushed or pressured before it breaks indeed went to instill breaks or rests both live coding and ancient weaving foreground understanding of process and structure understanding is cultivated through use and experiment through trial and error by doing something as a way of knowing how it is done moreover for knowing how it might be changed swerved or taken in a different direction or rather understanding is cultivated through an oscillation or even shuttling between discontinuous systems of abstract notation and the continuous experience of the lived process or actually I think today one of the things I was interested in is a kind of shuttling between the present and the future present which the live coder seems to be doing and so this kind of shuttling between two different experiences feels quite pivotal so I ask what are the cognitive and bodily intelligences operating in the live space between the continuous and the discontinuous between the abstract and the lived or perhaps even between the present and the future present knowledge gained through experiment might take the form of doing and undoing the repeated labour of trying something out over and over a kind of tacit knowledge cultivated through the accumulation of tests and attempts here repetition might be undertaken less towards the perfection of a given move or manoeuvre but rather towards the building of confidence and capacity a working knowledge of process or material such that it becomes ingrained in mind and muscle activated at the fingertips and in the process of thinking on act live and in live and emergent to the situation rather than pre-planned in advance or else here perhaps less a tacit kind of knowledge or of a know-how but rather a form of knowing closer to the imminent intensification of thinking that philosopher alembaddu following Nietzsche asserts is not affected anywhere else than when it is given thought is effective in situ it is what is it is what is intensified upon itself or again it is the movement of its own intensity not a knowledge then that is easily banked and transferable but rather acquired through practice moreover activated only in and through practice a tactical knowledge performed through receptivity to the possibilities of the unfolding situation so for the ancient greeks the term metis described a form of widely intelligence capable of seizing the opportunities or kairos made momentarily visible as the prevailing logic within a given structure or system yields metis is the art of preparing for what not for what could not have been planned for in advance and it's the same skill that's used as in catching the force of the wind or the turn of the tide and elsewhere I've been trying to conceptualise this as something that I call helmsman's knowledge or the knowledge of sailing. Marcel Dettian and Jean-Pierre Venant note that this is as prompt as the opportunity that it must seize on the wing not allowing it to pass reflecting on its role in ancient greek rhetoric Dettian and Venant describe metis as a type of intelligence and of thought a way of knowing it implies a complex but very coherent body of mental attitudes and intellectual behaviour which combine flare wisdom forethought subtlety of mind deception resourcefulness vigilance and opportunism it is applied to situations which are transient shifting disconcerting and ambiguous so they're talking about kind of an ancient greek knowledge but my application would be that this describes it would seem very well the idea of live coding practice so to improvise within a shifting situation requires skillfulness and attention a capacity for biding one's time and knowing when to act within many live coding practices the audience encounters projected code as a running command line whilst it is being modified or rewritten by the programmer and even in some instances by the code or interpreting system itself here then rules are instructions rules are instructions are not to be diligently followed but rather have the capacity to be modified or adapted even as they are being executed the tension of an unfolding thread or code varied as it is being woven or written or else undone and rewoven enabling the possibility of a change of tack the live running code makes manifest a developing logic based on the principles of what if to the testing of the possibility of this or this or this or this what then is the specificity of this thinking and action activated whilst improvising within the live running code and how might it relate to working on the loom to a kind of loom thinking indeed the means to which the same result is arrived at can create quite different kinds of knowledge quite different kinds of human capacities so rather than through the unfolding of trial or error the generative testing of this or this or this or this knowledge might also be acquired through an inversion of a given process here undoing comes first a reverse engineering of a weave or code necessary for seeing its underpinning structure not only the surface pattern an active undoing then for knowing how something works or is structured for seeing beyond the surface of things acts of appropriation of hacking and backtracking as a means of taking back control or no rather resisting control for reasserting the potential for creative improvisation within a seemingly standardised process for recuperating human agency within systems whose options seem increasingly closed or prohibitive or prohibitive form of creative consumption to follow michelle deserto or the cultivation of a minor language or practice to draw on delays or gotari where the prescribed codes and patterns of the dominant culture are appropriated or hacked modified or inverted creatively reverse engineered and then redirected towards other often yes often less utilitarian ends here then existing patterns rules or codes are not to be taken as a given as fixed or unchangeable but rather appropriated as a found material within which to work or rework the process of coding or weaving in these terms is not conceived as an algorithmic operation whose logic is simply imported and set in motion allowed to run its course rather both of the capacity to be unraveled and rewritten as events unfold I'm reminded of Penelope Wiley weaver of ancient myth wife of Odysseus in Homer's Odyssey weaving by day and unweaving by night willfully unraveling the weave such that by morning the task might begin again hers is an act of unweaving and re-weaving to avoid the completion of the task for refusing the teleology of outcome or of commodity the production of a project a product and its consequences for the contemporary live coder might not the Penelopean logic of doing and undoing or even undoing and redoing also be harnessed as a kind of active resistance conceived as an attempt to thwart or subvert they capture by capital refusing the terms of easy assimilation the undoing of the logic of a given accepted model or concept might be performed in order for it to be reworked or modified or else code is woven only to be unraveled for making tangible the process of decision making doing and undoing undoing and redoing performed as a mode of deviation awesome version of purposefully nonproductive labour weaving and unweaving of both code and thread operators and open ended process not so much concerned with the not so much concerned with the production of product as experience yet what other meanings and capacities if not products might be produced there I think of Lucy a rigure when she says one must listen differently in order to hear another meaning which is constantly in the process of weaving itself at the same time ceaselessly embracing words and yet casting them off in order to be in order to avoid becoming fixed or immobilised what kinds of performativity what politics what philosophies what poetics emerge therein repetition of a process is training or as exercise or as a schesis even a schesis a preparatory training or reflexive exercise connected to the cultivation of technique could live coding and live weaving be conceived as a schesis for practicing or testing the art of timing or of timeliness a capacity for responding to a new situation as it unfolds attending to the gaps and deciding how to act in one sense both live coding and weaving can be considered as chirotic practices based on the principles of invention and intervention in the middle kairos is an ancient Greek term that means an opportun or fleeting moment whose potential must be grasped before it passes describes a qualitatively different mode of time to that of linear or chronological time it is not an abstract measure of time passing but of time ready to be seized an expression of timeliness a critical junction or right time when something could happen as eric charles white states chiros stands for a radical principle of occasionality which implies a conception of the production of meaning and language as a process of continuous adjustment to and creation of the present moment white states chiros is a will to have a will to invent a form of improvisation an adaptation to an always mutating situation understood as a principle of invention chiros councils thought to act always as it were on the spur of the moment or perhaps in live coding terms through a process of coding on the fly as nick collins and colleagues argue live coders work with programming languages building their own custom software tweaking or writing the programs themselves as they perform code is written as it is performed a practice often referred to as coding on the fly or just in time coding or what I would provisionally call chirotic coding so I'm just going to skim a bit um the twin so basically the twin principles of metis and chiros is what I'm trying to investigate in relation to live coding using the prism of this ancient knowledge or technique is a different kind of epistemological framework for addressing key questions of liveness dexterity and decision making within live coding as a practice I think the key thing to say is that what I'm interested is in these practices that require a specific quality of alertness or attentiveness to the live circumstances or occasionality of their own production and what I'm trying to do in my research to suggest that these actually might be related to the productions of certain kinds of subjectivity and in that sense this work connects with the late worker Michelle Foucault especially around his notions of care of the self and the concept of making life into a work of art in short time pressing perhaps I leave on this question how might weaving and coding be practiced as exercises or even excuses as potential practices of the self and so it's perhaps important to state that it's a kind of a proposition really and my background is in fine art not coding and not weaving so I kind of come into this as a bit of an interloper in a way and the project's still in its early days and I think the plan is to try and flesh it out with more of the technicalities that come from both the disciplines of weaving and live coding so if anyone is interested in this terrain I'll be very interested in future conversations thank you. Well there are different readings of Penelope I think historically she's often been imagined as a figure of fidelity and fidelity to Odysseus and a kind of a figure of the wife's loyalty and there are a number of feminist re-readings of this myth as you might imagine that suggest a more subversive resistance within her gesture so actually less gesture of loyalty and perhaps one of independence and refusal but I think that idea of there's a very nice book whose title has slipped my mind where the Penelope and logic of doing and undoing is approached very much through the prism of feminist writing particularly french feminist writing by people like Iriga Reine Seeksu and I think there's something about that that actually strangers it may seem to an audience such as this looking at the male faces there's something quite feminist I would say about live coding in the sense that it takes quite a patriarchal vocabulary and undoes it and actually weaves it into different kinds of working syntax so there's something there that I think could be really productively unpicked. Okay so hello everyone in my paper oh sorry I have lost the first page in my paper I present the result of my research at its second year I am a PhD student at the University of Florence this research aims at analysing the live coding experience through the magnifying lens of ethnography let me first introduce briefly what ethnography is and which ethnographical techniques I have been using during the research ethnography is a method with the purpose of analysing various kinds of cultural manifestations through first person perspective many inquiry techniques are employed during the research on the field ethnography has three main assumptions the first one is a direct observation by the researcher the second is because of this direct observation the research perspective is that of the person who conducts it and third this perspective is full of theory or better full of researcher cultural baggage ethnography is a constellation of techniques in my research I choose to employ two of them particularly participative observation and ethnography participative observation consists in both direct and active researcher participation in a particular cultural activity the participation should last for a sufficiently long period where the event or the cultural manifestation in general is taking place the ethnographer interacts directly with participants and the interaction helps to build his or her knowledge of the milieu the researcher should stay as close as possible to the community under investigation although he or she has to maintain an equilibrium between the internal member's perspective and the researcher's one. Nethnography instead is a branch of ethnography developed by a person called Robert Codzi Nets where the research field is the internet ethnography is born in the market research field but is widely used in sociology too uh this kind of research practice helps to collect first hand information from the spontaneous online users chatting then it enables the researcher to observe the field in brackets from an external point of view avoiding uh wanted perturbations uh as a result the researcher is able to collect data that are more objective ethnography is also a process of documentation in fact during their research ethnographers try to catch the deep meaning of cultural manifestation under inquisition and to channel it on the recording support uh this process is never easy nor transparent because uh because of the different constraints and features of every recording support then every context needs particular documenting techniques and to think about the effects of recording technology in my case for example i choose to use a little and handy video recorder with hi-fi stereo microphones i made this decision because i need an affordable and not too visible means of recording i want to avoid that the audience feels under inquisition and to be felt as part of it uh i need that people behave as much as possible in a natural way after this brief introduction i would speak of my research results in more details first i will try to define loosely what live coding is in my opinion live coding in my opinion is a music technique and not a genre a music genre broad this last term is is addresses to a group of music compositions that share some features as form compositional rules architecture instrumentation and so on the term live coding instead refers to a way of producing music it is improvised programming acted mailing during live performances both with the lively present of the performer and not then with live coding it is possible to produce many different music on genre uh the most important aspect of live coding is that it enables the performer to build the music heard by the listener in real time however this term is sometimes used to address also a music on genre that is not very homogeneous however the most important constant aspect inside this genre is the computer screen projection i choose to consider particularly this example of live coding because thanks to these characteristics the cultural and musical processes are more evident and easier to understand and because it groups around it a conspicuous number of artists music is the main cultural domain where live coding is employed but it can be used also in many other cultural practices have the as dance performances is image processing and even weaving this improvising technique in music is characterized by real time processing sound processing sorry this action is conducted through the employment of musical instruction and algorithms written in a high level programming language visualized principally by a textual interface however different interfaces may be employed as for example physical devices nevertheless even in these last cases the text plays a central role during the performance because because it represents the sound result all these aspects is clearly perceived by the audience through an original artifice the so-called they just mentioned performer computer screen projection where the concert takes place this feature is central in live coding events aesthetic and purposes it represents the ongoing developing of artists musical totes and demonstrate that that actions are driven by the human performer and not by the computer automatically this trait is crucial because it has transparency in computer music field this case appears to be unique because it enables the listener to experience and confirm a lighter liveness effect this is an important innovation for computer music because for the first time programming becomes performative the audience the audience experience the performativity principally through screen projection another acts another aspects that is worth to mention is the proximity between live coding performers and and theorists and the and the hackers movement i have to confess that i have not analyzed with the right accuracy this aspect yet but it's for a safe fruit fruitful developments and i promise to to develop it in the future because i'm in the second year hackers movement is multifastered but it lays on some common principles principles among the most important there are one the right of every person to modify freely and unlimitedly unlimitedly every piece of software that is that is on his or her computer second the sharing of knowledge between members in a collaborative way these rules seems to be respected in the live coding domain too in fact the most important programmes are released under open source licenses and are very often developed by a group of passionate programmers additionally there seems to be a strong community feeling that is expressed through many online forums websites and social network discussions probably live coders are more close to the raymond side than to the stallman side the two groups that the hacker community is divided because they do not demonize proprietary software and many of them use apple computers windows computers these two hackers represent the two many main groups stallman and raymond represent the two main groups in which the movement is divided stallman is the champion of free software where the hybridisation with the proprietary one is not accepted another important aspect in live coding is the performers role in the haven's dynamic dynamic i have stated that this technique enables the performer to be perceived as a live entity who plays his or her instrument real time however listeners' attention seems to be attracted more by the screen projection than by the musician itself many times i have found myself staring at the light beam watching the evolving code on the screen instead of checking the performer musical actions it seems yeah it seems that the screen projection has become in this case the real musical reference during the performance because it is there that musical actions happen this fact is confirmed by online performances i have attended to our concert held at network music festival last year in Birmingham where three performers met on an online server and interacted to produce the sound heard in the music hall even though the musician were not present flesh and blood the liveness effect remained safe and untouched that is probably due to the screen projection that acts acts at as the performers reference the the performers musical toes is not represented through his or her body and actions but they are dematerialized and transformed in the light beam of the projection the last aspect aspect i have analyzed in my paper is the relationship between live coding and academia i have explained how some live coders perceive a harsh conflict between dance music that can be easily heard in live coding events and academic academic music even though they share some common characteristics on the base of this statement i explained that in my opinion live coding has a technique born in academic context but employed in many different performing fields could become a bridge between dance music and academia this bridge has to be constructed still and the analysis of the shared characteristic or differences between these two repertoires when they are played through live coding can help in doing this ethnography is an important tool to analyze cultural manifestation that are not static and formalized live coding is a young repertoire without strong rules and definitions then an ethnographical approach can help in clarifying many movement internal dynamics to conclude i would state that this kind of approach might raise some important issues to give an identity to his multifaceted technique it enables the researcher to collect important information about the audience performer interaction during concerts and to know and understand better the community internal dynamics with this data it is it is possible to compare live coding and the respective repertoire with the other music with other music experiences this comparison can help to legitimate to legitimate live coding in the computer music field thank you for your attention when you say that in the network's performance with no local performance liveness remain i wonder if i presume you mean you perceive that and i wonder if it might not be fairer to say that you perceive continuing human agency i perceive this liveness effect but also the audience present in the music hall because they react to stimuli given by the performer on the screen for example performance sometimes type messages between them and people laugh to to them and applauded when when they finished for example as in the same way as the performer were in in the music hall so i i i think i i have not interviewed the the audience members but in my opinion they also perceive this liveness effect thank you very much


Hey guys, you're listening to the Time of Football podcast and this is our analysis of the AFC East prior to the 2018 NFL season Glad you're joining us for another edition of the Time of Football podcast. We're talking about each division in Football we've already wrapped up the NFC We've taken care of the AFC South and the AFC North We've got two divisions left and the AFC and we're gonna start off with the AFC East Which seems like a division that's only has one team in it for the last 14 years or so But well except that one outlier in 2008. We're gonna go ahead and just talk about the other three teams as well why not you know and Joining us for this podcast giving us our analysis of the AFC East is Ryan Harris So Ryan is a Miami Dolphins fan through thick and thin regardless of how good or bad they are and We just wanted to get him on the podcast because it seems like all everybody's a Patriots fan. That's what I That's what I see. I know and Instead of bringing in some Patriots fans that I knew on the podcast why not bring in a fresh face and a new perspective on things being someone that's Has a one in the division and since 2008. It's a great year though. It was a great year going from 1 15 11 and 5 RIP Tony Spirano, so But Ryan, how you doing my man? I'm good. I'm good Kind of optimistic, but also not at the same time. It's the Patriots division. Hey, it's hey, you never know What maybe this is the year that Tom Brady is Doesn't do as well according to I feel like everybody says that every year like there's one person out there that says Yeah, Tom Brady is not gonna do good this year The only year he hasn't done well and won them the division is the year he tours ACL in week one Oh, yeah, and then the Dolphins won the division. Well, that's true. That's the only reason why that's you 10 years 10 years ago But being a Dolphins fan We got you on this podcast talk about the AFC East the bills the jets the Patriots and the Dolphins We're gonna talk about them in that order. Let's start off with the Buffalo Bills So Ryan for the very first time because we didn't have to stop this recording for the podcast and start over again Give us your analysis of the Buffalo bills I think they'll be the weakest team in the division this year without it out They were terrible passing last year that I think they've take they've regressed in passing They've got a worse quarterback could be better in the future. We don't know we have to see how he plays out But he's young and raw Their rushing attack is gonna get weaker. He's getting up there in age We've lost a lot But they are rebuilding and working for the future. They've got some good young players I think they're starting to build a team could be good for the future But they'll try to go out there and just win a few ball games this year. Maybe upset the Patriots As far as their quarterbacks go they started or they drafted Josh Allen traded up to number seven overall to draft him But there's also another guy that people are sleeping on. That's agent McCarron that they signed a free agency Who do you think is gonna start? I know me personally? I'd love to see agent McCarron start give him a chance Maybe he maybe he'd do something But it'd also be great for Josh Allen to learn behind him for a few games at least instead of being thrown into it in the first game Yeah Because he's from a small school. He's got to learn a lot. It's got an amazing arm but Not the accuracy to go along with it, but I'd love to see agent McCarron get the start Yeah, do you think that this is a better upgrade as far as your quarterbacks go than Tyra Taylor? I think it's a downgrade. I really like Tyra Taylor not only because I'm Virginia Tech fan, but like He's always been pretty solid I think he could definitely take you to the playoffs like he did last year for the Bills And I feel like I don't know he's not gonna take the Browns playoffs, but he'll do something for him So I think they're definitely taking a downgrade by letting him go. Hmm. Interesting. Interesting. You think Peter Minns in that conversation at all? That's what they say. I don't know Not at all. Nope. Always remembered for the five interceptions. It was a great game to watch. Yeah, I was actually had the Chargers defense that week It was awesome. Oh really? Okay. Yeah, so you you did really well that week. So Tremaine Edmonds is a guy that they drafted it seemed like he was gonna be top 10 going to the NFL draft He dropped it.  He just has that he could be The best linebacker in this draft or the best player in this draft if he develops well But he's so young and he's so athletic. I'd love to see him I think I think he's gonna be really good if he gets with the right coaches and that's what I've been hearing from everybody else But if Virginia Tech, he was great and so was his brother, but it's uh This this team overall we were talking about it before the podcast before our our first run at recording this Which is actually right now just so you guys know um We're talking about teams that made the playoffs last year That may not make it again and the bills are definitely on the top of my list as potential teams and Do you feel like this team is gonna make the postseason in 2018? No All right, my record. I haven't met probably I'm gonna have about five and 11 this year Okay, five and 11 five and 11 not uh, not even close to eight and eight nine and seven No, I think it'll be scraping the bottom Uh, now granted. It was an awesome moment seeing that locker room erupt making the playoffs the first time in a long time um But they depended on that one play from Cincinnati to beat baltimore to make it to the playoffs You can't really depend on things like that every single year And I don't think that they've gotten to the level yet where they can Control their own destiny and making the playoffs. Um, just not yet, but maybe 2019. Do you see them? I can see that. I think josh allen will have to develop a lot, but I think he could get there Yeah, the strong are man, um but um As far as the new york jets which is which is the next team we're going to talk about What's your analysis on them?  They're my most hated team in all of nfl just because of the rivalry But I I just get behind the jets this year. I think they're going to be strong for some reason I don't know what it is. I think I like sam darnold a lot And it's really good pickups. They also got they have three Quarterbacks that could start and I like all three. What do you think about their quarterbacks? No, you nailed it. Um through potential quarterbacks that could start. That's um, I'm assuming in mccown donald and bridgewater Is what you're saying. Yeah I like that as well. I think bridgewater has a least chance to start really. Um, I think it's beneficial I feel like I would start sam donald right off the bat Don't even waste time because I'm just looking at the trend of quarterbacks and I've said it before on this podcast quarterbacks that start all 16 games their rookie season When they go into their sophomore season, they just take off Derek Carr marcus mariotta karson wence um Like maybe not 2018, but what's the potential for sam donald in 2019 if he starts all 16 games A lot of the people you just named were also high draft picks So I think sam donald was the third pick right If you draft quarterback that high you're good to start them. You're not going to sit them behind It's not like erin rogers where you draft him at the 26th pick and you let him sit behind a proven starter None of them are proven starters They could win you a game or two be great backups But sam donald is the one you should be starting every single game and seeing what he's got and I I love sam donald I think he used my second favorite quarterback coming out of the draft For sure after baker. Mm-hmm. I love baker. Yeah. Yeah, I see I Okay, I know that a lot of people are big fans of baker mayfield I am too, but I I thought sam donald was the best quarterback in the draft um But I mean everything fell into place for for the jets. It was an easy decision once baker was taken once Barkley was taken It was easy for the just to go grab sam donald. Um, so I really like him, but How do you think he's gonna perform with the receiving court around him? Um You know with robbie anderson and and germane curse Um, I think they're solid receivers They're not great, but they can definitely make the catch and They got terrell prier who we know terrell priers not the greatest Last year he didn't really do great at washington, but he's still still an athletic freak. I'd love to see what comes out of them Other names on here charles johnson was a player in minnesota for a good bit germane curse is solid good slot It's serviceable receivers and they're all veteran receivers Yeah Defensively you as a dolphins fan.  Seeing their defense two times a year Um, they got rid of demario davis. Um, he went to new orleans, but they brought in avry williamson as a replacement at linebacker, um What do you think about this jets defense overall? It's definitely getting weaker every year But uh, the true main johnson good signing for them Jamal adams, even though it was one year last year. He still scares me great safety uh, lennard williams They got a bunch of really talented guys But I just We'll have to see how they play. Yeah Um, some of them really do scare me when they play the dolphins We're gonna continue talking about the a of c east, but before we get into that. I want to talk to you guys about um, something incredible that we do at time of football and that's patreon So patreon is the number one way that you can sponsor your favorite content creator. So Think of it like a go fund me. Um, but it's every single month. You kind of pledge however much you want towards Like your favorite videographer favorite podcaster um youtuber whatever it is And if you Well here at time of football, we actually have perks for you guys. So if you Pledge five dollars a month, then you'll get a free time of football t-shirt and there's going to be Lots and lots more perks coming out in the future But if you go to patreon.com slash time to football you can read up on everything your um revenue goes towards all the projects that we've got planned and um Also, this is something new that we started patreon. So um, we definitely want to spread the word. So uh, that's patreon.com slash time of football p a p a t r e o n dot com slash time the number two Football if everyone that was listening to this podcast Just pledged a dollar a month We would have enough revenue to grow time to football tremendously patreon.com slash time to football Oh, yeah Oh, yeah Oh, no I say oh no because We're gonna talk about the patriots next The team has that that has dominated this division The team that has made it seem like there is no such thing as an afc east Because it seems like Guaranteed every single year They're gonna make the playoffs now granade you'll get You know one victory one upset victory out of the jets the bills the dolphins, you know here and there but The the new england patriots the dynasty. How do you think they're gonna do? in 2018 The dark empire that's what I call them Same old same old. I think they're gonna win the division Handily Probably i'm gonna say a 12 and 4 record Okay, respectable. That's seems like what they what they get every single year um Has this team gotten better or worse? I don't know. I'm looking at the roster. I think it got a little bit worse But it's also like they got a different dynamic about them. I think Pardon me things are going to switch to more of a running style Because they have an abundant amount of running backs now This is true. Yeah, I I like sony michelle not as much as other people, but I I like them Rex burkehead. I really like jeremy hill Yeah power back form could be could be something but I mean it doesn't matter Who's the running back? Who's the receiver? They got tom brady. That's all that matters. Mm-hmm It's crazy to think that because there's reports coming out of training camp that Jeremy hill and mike gillsley are fighting for a roster spot. I'm thinking to myself Well, these are two.   Um, also Maybe sitting malcom but larry, but let's not mention that. Um They lost a lot of pieces But they also gained adrian clayborn on their defensive line Do you think that this defense being a dolphin's fan?  Or should be worried of the patriots defense Honestly, I don't think so. I mean last year in the first six seven games The patriots looked terrible on defense. Then they turned it around and they became a great defense again But I'm looking at the roster. I see a lot of older players They're still elite players like dead mccordy's getting up there in age still elite That was cool that they signed jason mccordy as well. Just have the mccordy brothers. I think that was pretty cool Yeah, I think uh Stefan gilmore. I think it's still Pretty solid. He's solid with buffalo. Um, and maybe last year he wasn't Like the top of the top, but bill bellichick along with tom brady. It's going to be a dynasty for a long time They make the playoffs. You said 12 and 4 obviously that's going to be playoffs if not a first round bye um But do you think any other team has a chance of dethroning them at all? I don't think they'll make the super bowl But I think they'll make the playoffs at 12 and 4 Mm-hmm, but I think someone will knock him out Gotcha, don't know who it's good to be yet um, but how I'm seeing this year go out like Tom Brady's 40 now Yeah, yeah, he's uh, I think this probably is gonna be his last year. Yeah, I think he's actually 41 Uh, he was 40 last year. Yeah, he's 41 Oh, no, he's 40. He's turning 40 Well, it depends on when you listen to this podcast because His birthday is august 3rd. Let's just say that Um, he's about to be 41. He'll be 40 when it'll be 41 when the season starts. True. Yeah um And we're gonna get more into this when we talk about the Miami Dolphins, but I've heard that a lot of people They like being on the pages because it's that potential to win a Super Bowl but They don't have As much fun as like playing for a coach Like for instance, let's talk about Damian Damondola Stays in the division went for the Patriots to the Miami Dolphins He said that Compared to New England, you know, Adam Gase is one of the boys, you know, he's younger. He's Like he's he's a motivator type coach and Like you just want to play for one of your boys Whereas in New England, you know, everything's just like so like structured And it just doesn't seem like it's as much fun Do you think that's a downside for the Patriots? It's at the end of the day. It's still the job Yeah, that they're there to work and sometimes the workplace just isn't fun. That's what it is, but They're out there winning games Making themselves more popular getting them more money outside of all that with indoor spends and everything going on so I don't think they Care too much at the end of the day Because I mean Danny Mendoz probably getting saved paid the same amount maybe less But I mean, I think at the end of the day, it comes down to pay. Yeah For sure and that potential to win the Super Bowl as well But Ryan, I think this is your favorite part of the podcast now. Oh, gosh, let's talk about your beloved Miami Dolphins, um Just give us your analysis of this team I think we're going to be improved the last year for sure Or I think we're going to be a lot better than a six and ten record I love their signings so far this year. It's a bunch of solid signings. I love Make it fit to Patrick. I thought was an amazing draft pick. That was really good. Yeah, you can play so many spots on the in the defense I love Danny Madola Frank Gore depth depth picks I think we realize That we can compete for a playoff spot if Tana Hill stays healthy at the end of the day And I think we've been bolstering our roster to compete for a playoff spot Our offensive line, I think it's been the best It's been in the last 10 15 years It's crazy, but And that's always been the biggest thing with the Dolphins is Can they get that guard play to help the run and not have Tana Hill Get destroyed every game because he's him and angel luck the most sacked quarterbacks are most Hurried quarterbacks the last 10 years. Right. Yeah So I'm a big proponent of line play and last year look at the Eagles when they won the Super Bowl Had already been the best offensive line and they did have the best offensive line And dolphins have bolstered both um I I prefer I like Robert Quinn. I think he's gonna be a solid pick. He's not gonna be as good as he was Two three years ago where he was the best player in the NFL. Right I'm just I'm more excited for this year than I was last year But also I want to hold back because one injury could just end that all That we've seen we've seen it before so last year um There's a lot of different factors about this team that I wanted to break down Let's start with with the offense and the quarterback position Soraya and Tana Hill. I'm a big fan of Ryan Tana Hill. Um Athletically he's gifted great arm Um And he wins games. He's it, you know, he's catapulted. Maybe he didn't start in the playoffs but because he got injured but He helped the Miami Dolphins reach the playoffs in 2016 Now a lot of people were saying that what's the number 11 overall pick and the NFL draft You could draft a quarterback and at that point at number 11. The only really good one that was around is Lamar Jackson um Do you think that Maybe they Should have drafted a quarterback like everybody else is saying or do you think that Fitzpatrick was the right choice? Stick with Tana Hill for at least this year um I think at the end of the day we made the right choice If We could have I would have loved to trade up and gone and got a quarterback Or if one fell to us Lamar Jackson, I don't think it's a pure quarterback wouldn't be great for our scheme But josh rosin would have fallen one more spot Because he got picked one pick before correct. Yeah number 10. So josh rosin We would have loved sam darnold or baker I know there was talk about josh allen. I would not have preferred it but like it's still It would have helped their team. Mm-hmm. I'm behind Tana Hill.  They're very very similar players He needs a good supporting cast around him to get you there Hmm. Yeah, that's good. That's good point. Um The run game how how much do you think that? They're gonna put in frank gore into the scheme. Do you think that with him aging? Seems like kenyon drake is gonna be their main back If you had to say a ratio like how much do you think kenyon drake would play?  Do you think he's gonna be in? an impacting player For the run game. I'm gonna say Uh 65 35 share. Okay. Maybe 60 40 would probably be more realistic. I think Kenyon drake's definitely gonna get the ball six percent of the time and I see frank gore getting in but 40 percent of the time Do you think that uh, maybe even damien williams would get it over frank gore or? I don't think so I I think we're gonna put Frank gore over him because Why would you go and sign frank gore? You know And he's still a workhorse who's I remember last last year there was a game in buffalo In the snow where he had 36 carries in that game now granted. He averaged like 3.6 or 7 yards a carry, but still like 36 carries. That's a lot Um, so you can still get it done and definitely it'll be a good relief for for kenyon drake to come out You know, maybe frank gore comes in a third downs and whatnot um Now branching off into this offense. They signed danie amondola, but they got rid of jarvis landry Um, do you think amondola? Kenny stills like you you think they they still have a solid receiving core I feel like I was in the minority of a lot of offense fans I thought jarvis landry was supremely overrated. Really? Yes Really? I love jarvis landry, but I also realized he's overrated Okay, okay. I think danie amondola can do the same thing. Maybe not As well as jarvis landry jarvis landry. I still think is one of the best slot receivers in the nfl He cannot play outside So I think this year for the dolphins. I'm I'm actually excited. I think Danny madola is going to be a solid pickup. I like them a lot putting in the slot Kenny stills was actually One of the highest rated receivers last year based on grade. Yeah, he was he was really good It's just if he can Catch the ball sometimes Sure, that's it's kind of important and then don't davante parkers had his glimpses where he could be Oh, yeah, I look like julio, but I play like trell prior. Yeah that's Davante parker every single year ever since people got um Or he he was drafted in 2015. Everybody's been saying Yeah, dude, he's gonna be like a late round fantasy football steal every year every single year people Say that I'm like No, I don't I don't think so like I think last year a couple years ago. He might he might have like two or three games where you know, he'll he'll be pretty good And that's when the moment you trade him um trade him away, but I'm gonna Okay, I really love this pick that the dolphins got Um at tight end micah secky I love that pick He's just because he's an athlete and I love tight ends that are athletes. What do you think of gasecky? um, I I really like gasecky going into the draft because Who's not gonna love a tight end that Runs like verdant davis two inches taller than verdant davis Bench presses so much, but the thing I love most about him is Adam gase when he has an athletic tight end Yeah, but it seems like a sick he's gonna be there's starting tight end. I love that pick a lot um Let's talk about the defense so Well, okay, so the offensive line and the defensive line you just talked about the trenches that all starts in the trenches That's how the eagles have uh wanted super bowl and the NFL is a copycat league So look at what the best team is doing mimic that. I think the dolphins have been trying to do that with their defensive ends Yeah, bringing in robert quinn via trade. Um cameron wake You think that cameron wake is still going to be the same player. He's going to be more of like coming in You know different downs and different situations. I think he's we come in on different downs because I think they're good at copy eagles Like you said, we have a lot more versatility now. We have William haze we had him last year, but William haze charles harris andre branch robert quinn and cameron wake all pass retchers just depending on the situation who's going to go and who's not Charles harris. We drafted first round two years ago Love to see how he does But a lot of them are also run stoppers and that's the biggest weakness for cameron wake is he cannot stop the run um secondary wise you think that this is going to be um something that can a group of players that can affect maybe tom brady's game And throw him off get a few interceptions off of him. I think I think they're serviceable I think We have two starters. They're not going to shut down anybody, but I like cordel tankers lee and xavian howard It's just if they can stay healthy. That's a big question mark. And then you got um fits patrick, um Fitzpatrick out here is he could play slot corner. He's going to play defensive back safety. Where's he going to play? You know But I think at the end of the day him and brashad johnson could bank good safety tandem So I think our our secondary is a lot stronger defensive line is a lot weaker So teams are going to pound the ball more against us and then our linebackers Uh, that's that's a story Yeah, uh, but hopefully they'll be good enough, you know, to at least challenge the patriots. So wrapping up the afc east if you had to rank each team and Kind of I know we haven't like sat game by game and looked at each schedule But talent wise if you could give a rough estimate on what the record is going to be for each team What's the record? I have actually looked at the schedule a little bit And this year the afc east i'm pretty sure they play the afc south Which already a weak division You're really there's two strong teams and then two pretty weak teams outside the vision They all play poorly outside the vision And then on the other side to play the nfc north three great teams And then the bears and the bears they're coming up. They're coming. Yeah, they're working on it. Um, but actually I see Patriots 12 and 4 Okay, I see a tie in second between the jets and the dolphins both at seven and nine Okay, and the bills at four and 12. I could see five and 11 five 11. Let's give them five and 11 Um, I could definitely see that Um, do you think that any one of them is gonna pull off an upset against the patriots this year? I mean miami is actually I think the last three years they've beaten the patriots once in the last three years Yeah, I remember uh, was it last year that it was that money night game? I think so. Yeah. Yeah, I remember that one um dolphins really play the patriots well every year. I think Gases kind of has knows what's going on with that team I can only see I don't think the bills can do it Bills aren't strong enough. I think the patriots are gonna mess them or mess around with them. We're gonna beat them up jets I could see him upset in other teams. I don't think that's at the patriots. I got you. I got you. So Um, so there's your analysis of the afc east But wrapping up I should have asked you this question beforehand so you Could have thought about it, but then I realized why don't I just put you on the spot? And If you take two minutes to think about it just two minutes of silence, that's fine. That's fine we'll just keep the keep the thing rolling but um I asked every single guest on the show what their favorite Football moment is so whether it's the nfl College football you used to play football like what is your favorite moment? in football Dang you really put me on the spot. Yeah, it's a tough one. It's a tough one I when it comes to sports, it's weird because I have my teams that I follow and I love But also I get I think everybody has gets this weird happiness of seeing the teams you hate lose I agree. So when I saw the patriots lose the giants and just that catch the off the helmet And then they go down the score touchdown That one's up there but I think just the hatred and like feeling that hatred and making me feel so much better because my team's terrible But this team that I hate just had their hearts ripped out. Like that's my favorite part I love that. I love that. Just me being in falcons fan I don't I wouldn't say I really hate any other team. I know that the saints are our biggest rival and Like if they you know make the playoffs win the Super Bowl Like I'm fine with that But like I totally understand like there's just some sort of satisfaction Especially like when your team beats your rival I can remember being a falcons fan and seeing um, it was thursday night football last year when deon jones grabbed an interception and drooperies Tried to start a game winning drive, but deon jones just grabbed it fell back and It was just it was just good. I wasn't like screaming like yeah, take that. I was just like Ah That's nice Then you have those friends that are fans of that team that's just like jab at them a little bit Yeah, yeah Yeah, I'm I'm very uh, I'm very passive aggressive when it comes to that kind of sort of stuff So I'll just like next time I see them. I'm just like smiling at them. You know, just like what's up, man? How you doing? You know, I'm not going to be like, yeah, take that take that now like I'm pretty chill about it.  I feel so bad for you. It's terrible. I was just like We won we're six and ten, but we beat you guys.  I'm so happy Um Well, ryan, I appreciate you being on um, yeah, man, um any uh any shout outs you want to give Uh, not really, but I'll definitely uh hit you up on patreon. You guys should do that too. Oh, thank you. Thank you. It's a great idea Definitely, um, so ryan, thank you so much again for joining us and Appreciate you guys listening just so you guys know as we're wrapping up. I'm gonna go ahead and plug some stuff um, we have this podcast up on youtube and on Um, itunes, so if you're listening to this on itunes and just know we have a youtube channel youtube.com Such time to football and vice versa if you are Listening on youtube. Just know we have a podcast on itunes. Just search time to football But regardless on the podcast app when you search for our podcast time to football Make sure you rate and review this podcast give it five stars help a brother out because it kind of tells us that you Guys love this content that we're coming out with and we're just kind of keep on um coming out with more and more of this content, um, but also Leave us a review. Let us know what you think um anything we can do better Anything that you want us to talk about we definitely take all those into consideration and we will Give you the content that you fans deserve um, thanks again for joining us and We'll wrap up the a of c as we talk about the a of c west next week. All right guys. Take care