they keep it Or was a swap pick for one of their Never I'll take it Lakers scouting department has been incredible They've been able to get diamonds in the rough like alex caruso and austin reeves and stuff like that so if if they're able to Yeah, if they're able to To get another pick That they could turn into at least sort of a six or seventh man or something like that I would love it because You know like the rockets window is so much Longer larger right wider However, you want to put it Because they've got a lot of youngsters that look interesting you know Jabari smith jr. Alperin sangoon is looking like a pretty decent big man jail in greens there So you've got a lot of youngsters, you know jayson tate still in the mix If if they're kind of in the You know, they're all kind of in the same similar age ranges They can get another pick in the draft Maybe lure some veterans or another free agent or two in there or something like that to houston And maybe udoka being the coach might help with that kind of recruiting You know, he might be because he was popular in the locker room well respected by players So I want to say that he might be able to recruit some people to houston You know, and they could be one of those stories where they could be You know, they could make a turnaround almost overnight within a season or two Yeah, dallas, you know, my colleague chris jaspy and I talked about this where we're we're just like We're just like man you know Yeah, the jailing losing jailing brunson stings kairi just kind of not Not instantly working out. It's kind of weird. They gotta They kind of have to do some work on this on on this You know, maybe Kind of tanking for that pick remember when they didn't play all those guys in the last game Maybe that kind of helps their draft position a little bit I don't know, but They got to figure this out. This can't be the anaheim angels of basketball Where you have like someone like luka donch it's there And You know gotta be old gotta be seeing guy like that in the playoffs They got to figure that out Just call us out because we don't play d here Yeah Well, you traded the the trade I think Traded those defense like two or three guys that could play the defense that lets luka donch it's kind of do what he wants to do offensively and there are other guys there, but You have a couple guys that don't really play a lot of defense You know, you lose a couple of your key defensive guys And if the shooting goes, you know, and shooting has their ups and downs, right? If the shooting goes cold for a few minutes and that could be a blowout right there within a quarter So dallas has got to figure stuff out. I mean, let's open up the standings again You know, who are some other You know jazz will have some work to do palakins will have some work. Okay. C's looking really good That's that's a scary team You know because once they get chat holmgren back I mean that's going to be scary because there are some windows right here, right the the sun's window is as far as kd and chris paul aren't getting younger So it's still a few seasons, but but there's there's kind of a window there The lakers obviously have a window with lebron james's age and You know within anthony davis's age and fragility So it's great that if the lakers can if my lakers can uh, well, we'll see what happens this season How far they can go But I mean they could probably keep guys like d low austin reeves jared vanderbilt You know, maybe maybe shrewder moves on or they do like shrewder a lot. Maybe he stays But maybe maybe guys like malik beesley lani walker troy brown jr Maybe some of those guys are gone. You got to keep hachimura at this point You know, but but if they can get a couple other young guys on that team because they still have guys like scottie pippen jr max christie some like Young guys that are pretty talented that but that may need a little more seasoning before they can start Pushing for a roster spot but if the lakers can kind of do that and then do what the lakers do which is You know, which is get a big free agent or two to come to la then I think uh Then I think the lakers will be looking good in a post lebron post and theme davis world But oklahoma city that that's going to be a scary team You know, yeah, how long's the warriors playoff window stef and clay aren't getting any younger draymond is probably not going to be Resigned But you know that money will probably go to jordan pool You know, that's a pretty good team still But you know, they do definitely have to have some of the younger guys on golden state step up If they want to extend that championship window, you know after Because listen, let's let's be honest here. It's just stef curry and clay thompson, right? They brought gary payton to the second back gary payton jr back, you know jordan pool Might not be that guy just yet andrew wiggins, you know really needs to get back to all starways Dreymond might not be around Kaminga hasn't really kind of progressed the way. Maybe they thought they would I mean kavon looney isn't scaring anyone at that at that five position They got to prepare for you know stef curry clay thompson getting older Yeah, eric houston hachimura, especially has been a revelation. He's been working with uh with phil handy Which is uh, who is a You know, who's a pretty great basketball coach? I mean he might he might be a uh He might be a head coach Sooner or later. He might get some head coaches. Hope coaching looks You know, but he's often credited. He's credited with working on working with hachimura with this shot You know coach darvin ham says hey if I could teach brook lopez how to shoot a three I can shoot. I can tell I can teach anyone how to shoot threes And I think he's definitely been helping hachimura there and I think that he's they've just been encouraging him to shoot I think I don't know what happened in washington with the wizards, but I think he was a little uh was a little trigger shy You know, but I think they kind of look at They kind of showing him some tape giving him some confidence rebuilding that confidence saying hey listen Like you're a shooter you're a scorer Be that and I think he's also you know when you get confident in shooting You know that gets people wanting to play a little defense too. I think he's been doing great on the defensive side of things as well but He's kind of a guy that that that likes to play You know likes to Likes to shoot the mid-range shot, which is kind of interesting Which is you know, the people are either going to go into the basket or shooting threes, right? He's got some long-range capabilities, but He can easily be a guy that fakes a three And then takes a handful of steps in to take a higher percentage mid-range shot Go to the bucket as well Which would be great for the Lakers if he really develops and keeps evolving Would love that love austin reeves He's been a revelation as well Yeah, james is saying sons. I feel this is their one year Paul will be 39. I think next year katie 36 And they don't have that young depth and and believe it or not you know, it's Devin book is already 26. He'll be 27 starting Starting this upcoming season Which is not which is not a Which is not old at all You know, but it's just kind of crazy thing. Man. He was drafted in 2015. They get these guys are drafted so young It feels like they've been in the league for so long, but but still, you know Still some mileage on that on that body And then what happens when? Yeah, when when when katie and chris paul are gone You know, he'll might be in his He might be 30 age 30 sees and there might not be too many pieces around him and And he's he's trying to he's scoring trying to Shoot his way out of shoot his way into wins What was that game? He played played against the Celtics pre chris paul and others He scored like 60 points went off for 60 70 points, but it was a loss for the sons. I mean, that's brutal Yeah, I saw the teams. I saw the lakers with older players last year They got ran out of the building right Well, especially since they they weren't able to kind of build a They would always be down by like You know They'll be down 12 15 points by the half Or they'll get smoked or they'll keep it closed and they get smoked in the third quarter coming out of the half It's just kind of get get out of the gate slow And then they spend the rest of the fourth quarter just emptying the tank Just to get it within a handful of points and still lose, you know Or if the game goes over time, they're definitely losing. They're gasped by that Yeah, I saw a lot too much of that last year and a little bit of that this year Although they got significantly younger, which was the right start But a credit to rob polinka the lakers gem if it wasn't for You know, if it wasn't for making that trade That monster trade.  I mean kevin drantz still making a lot of money Chris paul's making a lot of money. Devin booker's making a lot of money. D 180 and got paid too, right? He's making a lot of money so That doesn't leave a lot of money elsewhere to rebuild the team So yeah, you might end up making the same mistakes the lakers did and start and start picking up Start picking up these older like ring chasers, you know like golems who are Who are ring chasing And then you end up signing like these I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if they sign Harrison Barnes next year or something like that You know on a one-year deal. He started you start becoming that team That gets difficult. I mean I don't know if the If the three high-price superstar Thing is the right formula anymore. You know what I mean? But it's not like you can pass up on kd, right when when when people are like Oh, they should trade LeBron.  They all they should trade LeBron. I mean you can't trade LeBron You're kind of stuck with them for better or for worse. It's usually better than worse, but That's what you sign up for when you get a LeBron James You know, you gotta you gotta like deal with him, you know Acting like a gm or you know Being cryptic about how he feels about transactions. That's just what you have to deal with Kobe did it believe it or not You know and in the less happier times, you know like Yeah, Kobe's superstars are grumpy. They get grumpy. Look at what Kyrie and Kevin did They're asking for trades out of out of brooklyn. They're grumpy You know What about I mean what superstar isn't grumpy? When things aren't going their way seven clay are fine. They've won they've won championships upon championships. They're happy They've they've got they've got a ownership is built a long leash with those guys You know, so they're not complaining They got paid they're winning trips They're they're beloved in the organization, but for the most part everyone most everyone else is going to complain But when you get LeBron, that's what you got to do. You got to you got to you know You got to do what it takes to win in that window and that means sacrificing the future Should the suns have I mean listen if the sun if the suns win a championship this year, they're on they don't care Suns fans don't care, right? until the next year rolls around Because Lakers won that championship during the during the pandemic you know And guess what? The goodwill built from that championship disappeared pretty quickly when the team like You know gutted the team and rebuilt again and then rebuilt incorrectly and there were like one and a half dark years of Laker basketball you know so Um, so yeah, that dissipates pretty quickly You know, especially if you take the steps backwards as far as the Lakers did That should have been a lesson for for these teams That should have been a lesson for the suns. I want to say But if Kevin Durant comes knocking, what are you supposed to say LeBron James says hey, I want to go to the Lakers Are you telling him no what team says no? I mean there might be gms that say no, but what owner doesn't overrule the gm and say nope We're definitely getting LeBron here Or I'll find someone who does you know what I mean? Katie comes calling if he if he's he's making overtures To your team you're making you're making that happen But yeah, I I what did they give up for? Well, yeah, and especially when you have a new owner, right? Suns owner Wants to just get in there and just be like listen I brought Kevin Durant, you know Makes fans happy goes in there starts shaking things up And this is going to be a killer The next trade of Durant along with tj warrants in exchange for michael bridges Cameron johnson j crowder and four Unprotected first round picks and a 2028 first round pick swap Now this is not consecutive years right james Because I think the rules are they can't be consecutive first round picks. Is that right? So that might be every other year But still that's a lot All right ed gets a spot in the nt baseball filler We're over halfway there on that now Chad gets two in the flawless collegiate filler That's the origins box and gets a spot in the nt filler Three left on that now Every other year and the pick swap rights go to the nets if they want to switch picks sort of like the lakers pelicans Well, they're unprotected though. That's that's what it says 2028 is a swap an outright swap, but I think Good pick or bad pick. I think they're just unprotected. It just goes right right to the right to the nets I mean so I don't know I mean, maybe new owner better be ready to just start start playing start start doing what the lakers do and start uh You know start Just start spending money go over the salary cap, you know pay that luxury tax It's kind of funny because I I feel like in the early Sort of early chris paul devin booker kind of thing They were just like a lot of sunspans like hey, look at all these. Look at all this homegrown talent You know what I mean? Look at all this homegrown talent blah blah blah blah And now And now they're kind of doing the lakers formula Each yeah, there it is right first round 23 25 27 pick swap in 28 And then that that fourth unprotected in 29 Yeah, and drondian still doesn't want to be in there. Deandre's in enigma though. I don't know what Is he not have I think he might be budding heads with like the coach monti monti. Williams. I think That might be it. Maybe he just doesn't like that but this dude You look at this this dude be should be putting up stats Like like healthy anthony dales.  Shack was seven one three 25. All right, so he's a lot bigger than Um, but if it's just like if deandre ate and put on like You know Another 20 pounds got 260 muscle. I mean this guy could be dominating like shack You know, there should be And that that's that's the crazy part to me And that would open up the game for devin booker. He shouldn't be the 18 and 10 at night I mean, he should be getting Should be 25 15 at night He's the biggest guy on the floor Unless like yoka just on the floor something Height and weight it's the biggest guy on the floor They should be running a shakilo neil offense right there. Shack Kobe offense right there Well, now the Durant's there. Yeah But i'm saying once like chris paul is gone I mean, these are some like prime shack numbers right here That's just that's just what You know, you should be getting like almost 30 points a night And you just stumble into like double-digit rebounds Should be 30 point double doubles every night And was just defense Yeah, I don't know. Would it would would he be happier and maybe the maybe Maybe he would have worked out better in indiana I like austin reeves a lot. It's always good to You know, would he be first option in in indiana? I mean, and they've got a good young team around him, too Austin Reeves is an undrafted free agent And in a playoff game 23.7 for 16 from four rebound six assists Lakers made it was probably made a mistake letting Letting austin caruso go But I don't think they're gonna make the same mistake with austin reeves alex caruso austin reeves You know, of course, you know who austin reeves sort of sounds like doesn't he's kind of sound like kevin bacon You know, especially when kevin bacon does rolls where he Where he sort of leans and because I think awesome recent like arkansas and he's born in arkansas, you know Like I uh, he has you know kevin bacon will sometimes uh If he leans into A sort of slight southern accent in some of his movies Into a denture as his locker It's got an ipad it looks like Gatorade with the label ripped off That's a he's got a right guard In there he's got a little bottle of fiji water. They didn't turn that water bottle around. Is that an official sponsor? He's got a little smoothie. What is that? It's with a lake or sticker on it must be like maybe a nutritious smoothie, but it's got a large straw as if it might be Might be a bubble tea a little boba drink there Someone got him a boba drink. He's wearing a a prada beanie He's wearing some sort of necklace with some sort of craft Necklace lettering in there. Maybe looks like something to do with this kid It's got a two cell phones on there both face down he's got looks like a A toiletry bag. I don't know who makes that maybe a gucci toiletry bag a nondescript block wall charger With a different color cable and it looks like maybe he may have just gotten at a convenience store or something like that That's that's that's what's in the locker With uh, that's your what's in the locker report with joe jaspy Trailblazer's got to do some work in the offseason. I mean, that's another guy where you want to see dame in the playoffs That's just rough I'm not sure what they're gonna do there. I feel like he's too I mean he might reach a point where he might just have to request to trade it feels like Damian Lillard kind of gives me Kg vibes, right? Kg was too proud. I want to say almost or too prideful to uh To ask to force his way out of minnesota You know But I kind of feel like that's what damian Lillard is he's just I feel like he just doesn't want That he's just too prideful to ask for a trade Which is fine. I mean, I think that's great Not not too many players will like that but At that point you almost as portland you're like I don't know maybe do the guy a favor and trade him to a contender or something like that You know and try to press the reset button on your team Spurs, I'm sure I'm sure they'll draft They're draft their way back into As long as poppage is there But how long is he gonna be there don't know Orlando magic. I think I've got Yeah, I guess dame gets paid too much to move now They could make it work if you could move russell westbrook's contracted at that stage of his career If you could move kevin doran Yeah, I was gonna say if pop gets the next david robinson or he gets the next tim duncan, right? Which he's always able to find if he gets win banyama I mean Pop might want to stay in the league for another 10 years after that He'll be like he'll be so excited. He'll be rejuvenated I think pacers are gonna be interesting to watch wizards too You know, I might see or maybe not wizards magic. Definitely. See pacers and magic Moving into like play in spots. You can probably see brooklyn slip out of there You can probably see the bulls slip out of there raptors kind of slip out of that spot You know, I feel like I feel like the raptors might want to pull the uh Might want to pull the trigger Yeah, he might not he might fall out of that spot right there too And that might mean pacers are in kind of play in or maybe even six seed conversation You know, orlando magic might be in play in six seed conversation You know, and yeah, atlanta. What are you gonna do atlanta? Do you do you blow it up in atlanta? You know the gm admitted this and um I may be inclined to agree remember when atlanta went to the playoffs two year three years ago Three seasons ago or something like that and they made a pretty deep run Trey young was looking great. These players were looking awesome But that offseason Short of their draft picks. They didn't do anything in the offseason. They kind of stood pat Then the year after that They said we got to make moves. We made a miss the gm all all but admitted Hey, we made a mistake not Striking while the iron is hot and continue to keep building upon what we built You know and players they thought would progress ended up regressing and then just didn't work out And then they did another set of moves their season was a lot better this year, but there might be odd playoffs soon, but But yeah, now at this point, you know, does tray young get traded? Same draft class as luka right 2018 I think that'll be interesting to see chat. What's up? Damian's waiting for new management in their direction new management Is uh, is chauncey out already? Is he out? And their direction believe this offseason will tell damian's future as well and players make singles ahead after they do I hope they do It's a shame not seeing damian lillard in the playoffs. You want to see that guy in the play? He could be a face of the league You know, but if you're not if you're not in these big playoff games It's already hard enough that you're you're in portland playing late night West coast games a lot of the east coasters aren't seeing you so playoffs is the time where you got to make You got to make yourself known. It's good for portland, too If kids who are 18 years old or Maybe going into college who are going to be, you know excited about maybe being drafted by portland if if they're out there But I'd like to see, you know, the the league's better when their stars are shining, right? And on a platform to shine you want to see damian lillard do well But pistons another health another Another team that could that could uh, that could rise You know another draft for them right What if they get win banyana But another draft from them if they could maybe Lure a solid free free agent vet or two to that team Plus some good coaching everyone stays healthy that could be a really fun team Thought there's just hawks out of more shooting that I don't think they did they really didn't do too much that one year after their great playoff run So they took a step backwards They took like two steps backwards one step forward. They took another step forward. They're kind of Now they're kind of where they were again about a few seasons ago Right, jeez brandon miller and scoot henderson's up there, too Yeah, and then get get get detroit some good coaching or something like that you know, um Where does Where does nick nurse go nick nurse is out? with torano Former coach of the year and an mba champion. I have a feeling Where does nick nurse go a lot of teams who would love a nick nurse? I want to say I think he's a pretty solid coach Ah, gotcha. This is the gm second season for the blazer. So we'll find out chat saying we'll see what they do Blazers need a move game if that can't if they can't make a smart quick moves You can still get a lot of yeah, I think you can because Right, this is like the shouhei otani situation Where now that he's a two month rental, how much could you really get for otani unless you're assured extension, right? Which which still might be You know like You want I mean this would be the year to trade him chat because otherwise everyone's gonna wait until after this season For him to be an unrestricted free agent I guess he's going into his 33 year old season james. So not actually that old. He's been around. He's been playing for a while though and then there's a There's a oh is that player option exercised already So there's he's got two more seasons with portland. I guess Exercise by extension and then he cannot be trained till july of this year, which is after the draft so To get the the the the mess obviously you want to keep damian lillard, but if you're going to trade him It kind of has to be either this season or The up or the next season's trade window So a team could get a year and a half of of damian lillard That's where you can get the most haul out of him. I mean, I don't know if he has a no trade clause. I'm sure I'm sure if they want to move him. They'll probably work together to to Especially if damian's like hey, you can get me to good team. I'll wave no trade clause for you But I feel like the thunder are like a team with a ton of picks Can you imagine? Or does that mess up with the chemistry too much? You know if the thunder can move some draft picks You know maybe I mean their thunder aren't going to trade any of these guys, but If they maybe trade like this jail in williams Some draft picks You know just so just to get a solid player and then replenish that team That could be interesting I feel like okay, he's sitting on a ton of draft picks I mean, we'll see how much self-awareness the portland trailblazers and their gm has Because like we were talking about the angels last night and You know you look at the angels and you look at arty marino and there's almost a lack of self-awareness He has regarding that team You know and what they could be and what they could do and I think that kind of hamstrings the organization and Bad bad signings are being made monies being spent in the wrong places and And all that sort of stuff and then you kind of run into the situation that the angels are in now Yeah, just make the trade, but I mean it's hard though I I can only imagine if you're if you're if i'm the gm of the portland trailblazers Is that easy to look damien lillard in the face and look your fans in the face and say We traded this guy it takes a lot of guts to be a gm You're gonna get you know, you know how twitter is these days. You know instagram is easy. You're gonna get You can get death threats.  Yeah, the gming is is is a weird thing. You got to have You got to have con i mean it's like It's like uh, it's like a poker player It's like a a stockbroker You know You're handling You know trying to bluff your way into some some good hands If you're playing if you're gambling with the stock market on wall street You're you're someone who's managing millions of dollars of other people's money You know, there's a lot of pressure there to say this is the right call Same with baseball same with same with basketball same with the gm of any sport It's one thing to it's one thing for us to be fantasy gms, right which which i love playing fantasy It's one thing to be a fantasy gm, but you know I'm not dealing with with real people real emotions people's families people. You have relationships with You know, if you get too sentimental about your players, it's hard to trade them You know If you're not sentimental enough about your players, then you know, you're not getting the best out of your players because You know, it's a It's not a good relationship with your with your players You know, you have to have a good relationship with your players. Yeah, it's a money ball I love money ball. It's one of my favorite movies And that money ball I think Like draft day with costner is is kind of fun, but I don't think it's as realistic I watched that for the first time like last fall or something like last summer or something like that Um, I'm gonna have to do a rewatch before this draft this thursday, but But uh, yeah, it's a good movie. It's a lot of fun, but but I think Like the the number of mac trades and machinations that that happens There's just not realistic Just doesn't happen that way um But it's a fun movie but uh you know um But I think like money ball. I think well based off a book You know based off a true story. I think money ball Is one of the few movies that even explore the front office of a sports team, right? It's not that fun You know making a movie about the front office of a sports team, but yeah draft day was terrible for the trade Like it's a it's not a bad movie like it's acted well that there's good You know relationships between the characters that are interesting. I like all of that um But I think I think this is this is actually what I was told to where people were like, oh, you haven't seen draft day They'll be like, well you'll like it, but I think you know what will be distracting is just how unrealistic like the draft day trades were like You know Most fans who are past like casual level. All right, I think most it's mean the movie's made for casual fans, right? But I think anyone who's kind of in a you know Sort of the sort of in the later state in the higher, you know our graduate level PhD level, uh PhD level, uh sports. They're gonna look at that and be like that's just ridiculous Right trade all of my first round picks then trade them all back and get some depth and traded ed rusher at one Who you could have got in the 15 20 range? You know But up to that point I think that was a good depiction of like how how gms don't show their hands too too much how They're they're you know, they're it's always smoke and mirrors with like reporters and with your other staff members Even your own scouts, you know Like there's a lot of there's a lot of things that go into it money ball was great because it really showed You know the construction of a team Based off of you know, something unique at the time, which was being more databaseed and and realizing That counting stats like home runs and rbi's An average just wasn't or just really basic level stuff you know Or just basic ways to look at stats and evaluate players You know and that's just It doesn't tell the whole story You know now you're looking at stuff like winds above replacement. You're looking at on base percentage. They Moneyball just really money. Everyone thinks the money ball is how to run a team cheaply Which is not the Which is not the entire point of money ball uh The thing the point is the a's had to do it because the a's were cheap But if you're if you're able to apply that You know and the dodgers do it the rays do it. There are a lot of teams that do this now You know, but money ball gets a bad rap as in oh, you're just trying to money ball your way out of it Meaning you're you're just trying to trying to be cheap But it's not about being it's not necessarily about money is about finding value If you could find You know value in a player that's that's important Combined with if you can spend money to to land some of the some of the bigger free agents, but when you have like Three big free agent outfielders. How do you how do you set them apart when on the surface? They look the same you can look at the underlying stats and that's where you decide to pay that player that kind of money You know when you're about to pay them hundreds of million dollars But money ball is such a such a great great way to show that part of the world, you know It's great. I would love to be in a front office, but apparently It's extremely hard a lot of turnover You know and a lot of times You know, it's hard to crack the front office because there's a lot of former players that are that are in the front office or You know, you have to be one of those rare stories where you work from the mail room to the You know assistant in a market intern in a marketing department work your way up to You know some sort of director position blah blah blah.  God. I mean that's you're putting in a lot of A lot of hours putting in a lot of dedication and you got to really really really want that to To make it that way and since i'm not a former baseball player You know Yeah, the jona hill character Was just for the purposes of the movie Was more of a composite character So it included paul deepadesta Who ended up being the cleveland browns gm? If you if you recall that way back in the day after his dodger stint. They was trying to apply More data to to the nfl The experiment didn't quite work. There's some interesting things that came out of it, but it didn't quite work But yeah, the assistant gm paul deepadesta Who again, he doesn't look like jona hill. I think jona hill was again just a composite character That included paul deepadesta and some others in that a's department back then But yeah paul deepadesta ended up being the gm for the dodgers. I think during the mccourt ownership or maybe before that Yeah, the results were a little mixed No doubt smart dude as you know Brought a lot to baseball, but I'm not sure of him quite running Running the show himself has been Has been his success Not yet. Anyway All right gang. Well, I think i'm gonna call it a night We're five minutes over and I think the only order I got was from in the last 10 minutes 10 15 minutes was from walter who picked up spots In uh the contender's optic break, which is on wednesday So I think we're gonna call it but a nice little chat to close out the night A little on the quieter side we got some work done, but a little on the quieter side tonight, which which usually means You know a busier night tomorrow night So hopefully with some new releases coming out on tuesday And with some fun stuff still on the website that we can do tomorrow right, I think we can uh I think we can get a lot of work. Do you just got here rex? You should have gotten here earlier That's my that's my counter to that. That's not my fault. You came in late But rex and everyone don't worry. I'll be back tomorrow three o'clock pacific six o'clock eastern Uh, well my Lakers played tonight So LA kings aren't playing tomorrow. Are they? They are so it's like it'll be a kings hat day tomorrow That series is tied at two they're in edmonton So a little bit of a heartbreak for the LA kings last time. So it'll be a kings hockey night tomorrow Big breaking day tomorrow and prepare for the new release days that are on wednesday So it'll be another good night of sports. It'll be another good night of just hanging out and a good night of just uh Of just just having fun Guys and gals that's what we do. Oh, yeah dodgers started dodgers are off today. But are they playing the pirates tomorrow? You need my dodgers to destroy the pirates. I hope we can do that. I hope we can do that for you rex listen the Dodgers third on the totem pole right now rex lakers la kings Dodgers We've got playoffs happening.  I'll go all the kings games should not well. We have two TVs out there. So I'll have the dodgers games on one TV. I'll keep an eye on it All right gang rex james chad. Thanks for staying up late with me. Thanks for talking. Thanks for hanging out Appreciate you guys. Thanks for your orders to us how your orders coming as well um For the rest of you who are listening and lurking the background background. I'll see you tomorrow three o'clock pacific six o'clock eastern We'll see you tomorrow


Well, good evening. I'm pleased to welcome you to what I think is the first ever Mises University debate The subject as you see from your program is as follows resolved. It is smart to get a PhD in economics Arguing in favor of the resolution is Walter Block Walter. You have already been introduced You've already been introduced to Walter earlier today. He is the Harold E worth eminent scholar At Loyola University, New Orleans and holds a PhD in economics from Columbia University. So that would make him smart Arguing against the resolution is Gary North. Gary is the proprietor of Gary North comm and a prolific scholar And Gary holds a PhD in history from University of California at Riverside The game plan is to allow each speaker 15 minutes for an overview Then each will get 10 minutes to offer a first rebuttal of the others comments and to offer additional comments And then each will have five minutes for a second rebuttal I will be moderating and keeping the time up front and feel free to use cat calls and whistles if anyone tries to go over his Allotted time. So without further ado, I turn the floor over to Walter Block This is an unusual debate for me. I'm used to debating pinkos and commies and Right wingers and such like and I'm sure Gary has had a similar experience. We're here Gary and I agree on 99.8 percent of everything and I'm not sure what the other Oh two percent is except for this one issue So it's a strange kind of a debate a more of a debate within the family then of Contending philosophies because we agree pretty much on these things I'm not totally happy with it is smart to get a phd in economics. I I guess I'd be more comfortable. It's a good idea To get a phd in economics more moderate Or at least for some people certainly, I don't think it's a great idea for everyone to get a phd in economics I mean, what about history or philosophy or something and and if everyone got a phd in something What about plumbing and carpentry, you know, we'd be in trouble. No food The comparative advantage and specialization would mitigate against everyone getting a phd. So as is my name Walter moderate block I'm taking a very moderate position And I'm disgusted with Gary.  I mean He's so disgustingly extreme and you know, we need more moderation here I mean Gary doesn't want anyone to get a phd in economics. I think I'm not sure I'll have to let him speak for himself but that based on my readings of his many many brilliant rewritten articles in lu rockwell.com He'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think his position is, you know, no one should get a phd in economics And I can't go along with that I'm going to divide my comments into two Subsections one why it's a good idea to get a phd in economics from the movement's point of view The australibutarian movement how how getting a phd in economics will help us promote liberty That will be one section of my talk and the other section of my talk will be From a personal point of view, will it be who view will it benefit you personally to go out and get a phd in economics Or not what are the positives and what are the negatives? Okay, so with regard to the movement I um want to say that Getting a phd in economics and people who have had phd's in economics have made signal contributions to liberty and This is not to say that there are people who have not got a phd economics have not made a contribution to liberty, which is ridiculous and I made a list of people who don't have a phd Who have made contributions to either economics or austrianism or libertarianism not all of the people i'm about to read off I agree with on every jot and tittle, but I acknowledge that they have made contributions For example, david freedman has a phd in physics Henry mani and gordon tellak who have made contributions to economics have law degrees Gary north has a phd in history tom woods has a phd in history Ron hamway and ral fraco phd's in history elinor austram with whom I don't agree But still I acknowledge he's made contributions to economics has a phd in political science Laura davidson who's made a magnificent contributions to austrian macro theory is an airline pilot carl hess has made contributions uh Our own lou rockwell dug french and jeff tucker have made contributions to economics without a phd Charles murray has got a phd in political science The list goes on and on there are many many uh think tanks where people have a master's degree or not a phd sometimes no degree at all Uh a degree in economics is no guarantee of anything, but on the other hand it is um a help I contend brian darty wrote a book radicals for capitalism and he picked five people who he said made contributions to Our movement again, I don't agree with all the five that he picked but four out of five have phd's in economics Mises hyac roth barton freedman Milton freedman all have phd's in economics and have made some contributions again We don't have to agree with everything they've said, but we can acknowledge that they've made contributions Rand iron ran is the only one of the five the top five who have made contributions Uh She doesn't have any degree at all If I had to add a sixth person to brian darty's list I'd add ron paul who again doesn't have a phd economics, but does have some credential. I mean he is a doctor Uh, ludwig von mises said everyone carries a part of society on his shoulders No one is relieved of his share of responsibility by others And no one can find a safe way out for himself if society is sweeping toward destruction Therefore everyone in his own interest must thrust himself vigorously into the intellectual battle None can stand aside with unconcern The interest of everyone hangs on the result whether he chooses or not every man is drawn into the great historical struggle The decisive battle into which our epoch has plunged us So we got to fight the power got to fight the man How with a gun that's silly we have no comparative advantage and in any case ideas Are more powerful than the gun the the pen is mightier than the sword because the pen determines in which direction the sword is pointed So what we have to do and and certainly what the mises institute does is tries to promote and Discover and create new ideas in favor of liberty and and sound austrian economics So ideas are very important It doesn't you don't have to be an economics professor to promote and create ideas Hayek talked about second-hand dealers and ideas journalists clergy anyone whose day job it is to promote ideas would be wonderful I would encourage people to do that It was this movie reds Warren Beatty played John Reed who was a commie journalist and the lennon character said i'd give 50 professors for one john reed Well, I tell you if 50 or you people in five or 10 years had your phd's and were professors of economics promoting liberty I'd be very happy and perhaps 50 to one is the right ratio I mean lennon isn't wrong on everything. He might be correct on this. I'm a lennonist now So this is you know, if we had one journalist of the john what john reed did for communism doing what what is being done Doing what could be done for liberty That would be great. So I would encourage people to get into the intellectual debate To promote liberty Economics professors are good journalists are good clergymen are good any Any sort of activity working in a think tank? What have you? let me give An inkling of my own career And what i'm now going to do is read off a list of former students of mine who have made some contributions to liberty again I don't agree with everything that any all of them have done But I think that they have made some contributions to liberty And what i'm going to say is that a phd in economics is sufficient it can help Not sufficient, but it can certainly help although it's certainly not necessary When I taught at Rutgers In the 1970s Richie Fink was a student of mine and he is now an officer at the Koch foundation From Holy Cross where I was from 91 to 97 Ed Stringham is now the hackley endowed chair for capitalism and free enterprise studies At the Fayetteville state university Andy young is now an associate professor at west virginia university Billy costius associate professor at cleveland state university lionel beaner PhD candidate in political science at Yale Ken garshina an investment banker mesis institute contributor From loyola where I have been from 2001 to the present dan de meco Who was my former student again? I don't take credit for these people Many other influences influence these people, but I had maybe some small A role in their development dan is now my colleague. He's a an assistant professor at loyola university emily schaefer Assistant professor at san jose state university jenny dermaer assistant professor at hampton sydney university Loyola students of mine who are now in the midst of a phd program are nick snow mark melonson and chris phleming veteran vooc another former student of mine is a senior editor with dug casey enterprises all making contributions all who I had some Small part in in their development and I'm very delighted that I was able to do that And if some of you got phds in economics and got jobs teaching economics and had students of this sort I'm sure you'd be very grateful as well okay now I want to move to The second part of my talk where I said I wouldn't talk about the movement But I would talk about from an individual personal point of view. Does it make sense to go out and get a phd in economics? Well, let me talk about the bad the bad part of this is that math has been elevated into a restriction on entry almost the economics profession in The u.s. Is hyper mathematical even in the least prestigious universities and in the most prestigious universities Pretty much all you do is math Sometimes my colleagues and I suggest to students that they not major major in economics as undergraduates rather major in math And maybe minor in economics So intense has math taken over yet I've had some luck in getting students through george mason university. There are some students here at suffolk university Are are they in the room if they are would you raise your hand or stand up? Maybe they're downstairs There are people studying with guido hultsman in france Uh, where to the soto in spain sima in Poland if you are interested in knowing where you can go and get a phd in economics With some austrian content not as much as you or I might like but some content Email me and I will give you a list of places where you might go Many of these places give you a full ride you get a full Full scholarship no tuition and you'll get 15 or 20 000 bucks to keep your body and soul to So the only investment you're making or the big part of the investment you're making is the alternative costs of your time What you could have been earning had you not gone for a phd Also, there are uh while i'm mentioning schools. There are several schools Where as undergraduates you might consider going or tell you younger siblings Some of the schools where my students are now teaching such as san jose hand in sydney grove city Where professor herbner speaks um my own school These are places where you can get some austrian economics Okay, in addition The reason I mentioned these schools is because they are the least mathematically inclined the ones in europe all you need is a master's degree From a us school and to get a master's degree. You don't really have to do this hyper math and then you go over to europe and get a phd Mainly what you do is you write your dissertation But you'd have to ask ito and these other people exactly what the details are and you can come back here and get a job Richard ebbling is my only case in point My only one example that I know of who got a phd in a european school That was not the london school of economics or one of the most prestigious ones And he was the president of fee for a while and now he is a professor at northwood university So that's not too shabby you can get a job and train students in austral libertarianism in that way The other problem beside the hyper mathematicality of the phd in economics is that there's an academic bias toward the left But this means that economics is probably the least susceptible to this The leftist bias is much more heavily Endowed in history law philosophy poly size sociology than in economics. There are some people here I think one of the Summer fellows was getting a phd in sociology and I was amazed because you know most sociologists are not open to free enterprise and yet he seems to be prospering but I would recommend economics over sociology because Sociology is way worse than economics economics is not as good as it could be But it's infinitely better or way better than some of these other fields Okay, let me now talk about the good from a personal point of view Why is it good to get a job not so much for the movement's point of view? But for your own personal economic self-interest take me for example I teach three courses a year 15 weeks times three hours 45 hours round to 50 hours for marking exams 150 hours My salary is 175 a year. So every class hour I teach I get 1166 dollars That's pretty good It's not as good as making a killing in the market or something and you can make a lot more as an entrepreneur But 1166 dollars per hour isn't too bad How about a new assistant professor like Dan D'Amico? Six courses a year 15 weeks three hours a week 45 hours round to 50 times six 300 hours That means that his hourly salary is 75 dollars an hour again not so bad you get um If you double it for publishing and committee meetings and butt-kissing What you have to do is a non-tenured person. Well, then your salary is um 125 an hour not too bad vacations 22 weeks a year nine hours of work a week Two or three days.  How about as an adjunct? Well as an adjunct all you do is you teach But if the salary per course is 4,000 a course then that's 88 dollars an hour If it's 3,500 it's 77 an hour and it's 3,000 it's 66 dollars an hour Gary talks about minimum wage jobs. I don't know where he gets those figures, but even an adjunct Which I mean most people that get a phd aren't adjuncts at least in economics because there are so many alternatives in economics Whereas if you get a phd in Literature or poetry or something like that then you are more likely to get an adjunct Thanks. My time is up and he's bigger than me This is a formal debate and any wise debater Always asks himself before that debate begins Who will the judges be and what criteria will they use to make the judgment? When I propose this debate to walter as a way of settling our differences on this issue I had a very definite group of judges in mind specifically College students perhaps the second semester of the junior year First semester of the senior year I propose that we do it at mesis university at the institute, but at this particular Session because there are more undergraduates here than say at the austrian scholars conference I want most of all to get a video out of this or perhaps an mp3 file because on a permanent basis I want this To be available to students over a long period of time to help them make that judgment And so that is why I propose a debate. That's why i'm very glad that I have an opportunity to make this This presentation now you have the problem here of getting advice from A 70 year old economist and a 69 year old historian Who went through school a long long time ago under a very different set of conditions And facing quite frankly in their careers very different conditions from what you are going to face In the next 10 or 15 years if we have congress working full time the way congress has been working So what i'm saying is what you really need to do is make assessments of your own situation with some Guidance, but you do need to make the decisions based on what I believe are rational economic criteria So let's start with the basic economics where most of us have started in this movement and that is with haslitz Wonderful little book on economics in one lesson. Let's go to chapter two Which is the famous story of the broken mirror or the broken glass the broken window pain And the standard analysis would be that If that individual has to pay now to get it fixed to get it replaced to get it installed That's going to spend money into the economy and therefore there will be a boost of the local economy because of this original spending Now that of course came from bastia's wonderful essay all those years ago in 1850 haslet Resurrected it and the answer to it is it's bad economics because you have to look at the alternative cost What would he have done with the money if he had not had his window broken? And that's what he really wanted to do not this alternative of the broken window. I want to I want to rework this image I want to talk about The window that is not broken and the not broken window is the phd economist Who has tenure or is in a tenure track position and you ask him Is it a good idea to get this phd and the fellow who has not broken his window says yes It's a great idea. Look at what I've done. Look at what I've been able to do over the years Look at my situation what I want you to do is look at the shattered window The shattered glass and the problem with that is you can't get straight testimony on that because those who went through the Experience and did not survive don't talk about it. They don't leave records of it. You can't get interviews with them So we have to make judgments About it and I want to say at the beginning. I do not want you to join the fellowship of the shattered glass Because it can be shattered dreams. It can be shattered finances So before you get into this Advanced program you have to count the costs now as good economists Let's start with the basic costs that we all have to deal with inevitably And that is the very simple out-of-pocket cost you have You have room board tuition textbooks If you go Pre-in universities the one we all want to get into probably didn't the ivy league schools You're talking $50,000 a year and then you have to figure out how many years you're going to be there Now you may get a fellowship and this of course you may get a teaching assistance But remember what that means you are going into a kanesian university You are going to be an adjunct assistant low paid to a kanesian professor You're going to grade in terms of kanesian standards You're going to subject your brain your mind your hopes your dreams for four to six years to kanesian principles You're going to see cost curves going wildly up and demand curves going wildly down Now if you're willing to do that Yes, you can get through the ivy league school if not you go to a less prestigious school You may pay 25,000 a year you go to a state university You may even get out for even less But the point is there are out-of-pocket expenses, but those are not the big ones Let's go to the economic expenses the ones we know most that is the forfeited income Dr. Block has already mentioned one that is you could get a job That will generate income you will not get that income And that is a loss you have to count that as part of your loss The second thing you're going to miss is that for any career You need between 5,000 and 10,000 hours of really dedicated work to master the terms of that career to get the head start to get that Real advantage that you need to be successful in the career if you spend four to six years in A program of the phd in economics and you don't wind up in a field In which that would have been an advantage entrepreneurship Whatever you want to go into then you have that problem, especially if you don't get the degree Now the third thing which I think is really vastly more important is this you lose the time in which you could have learned austrian economics You have 400 books printed downstairs one book a week is going to take you some time You can master the basics of austrian school economics in three to four years if you work at it on a Disciplined basis if you're going to learn austrian economics learn austrian economics Not kanesian economics mathematical economics not freemanian economics. I think not even public choice economics Why would you discipline yourself? To learn something that mises said is wrong Conceptually philosophically wrong You're going to submit yourself for six years to a program in which you know You are presenting yourself as a sacrifice on an altar to a god. You don't believe in Now I'll give you some from my world which most of you don't know about how many six day creationists would sign up for a phd program In paleontology at harvard and say i'm a six day creation. You all want me Oh, baby. Do they want you? The first sacrifice of the semester now the point is So it's it's the risk factor now. I want to give you real world Judgment there are here are techniques you ought to use before you join any program You've got to do this if you have a nickel's worth of sense You find out how many students enrolled in the program at the beginning of the previous year and you find out How many students were awarded the phd? And you and you see the attrition ratio And that's going to scare you and then the second thing you better find out is how many advanced to dissertation writing and how many finished Because if you come out with the legendary abd all but dissertation you are unemployable And you better find out how many didn't make the cut at the dissertation level Because if you don't do that you are really going into a very high risk situation Then you find out What's the median number of years for the average guy to finish in the program?  Now let's go to the next Issue that I have alluded to that is submission to a system that you don't like The mathematics the statistics all of the rigmarole that are that are Consistently opposed to what austrian economics stands for and believes in why do you do it? Departments have goals and of course the basic goal the department's keep enough students running through the system so that the Salaries keep coming in that's your basic rule of every academic department Let's talk about the basics four things one Screen out the unbelievers two convert the unbelievers three Persuade the unbelievers that value free economics And scientific economics leads to the conclusion that you need more government coercion And four to send that new recruit out to be an evangelist for the position that you have just run him through I don't see in At least if you do this know that that's what you're getting into the risks are really against you now career You get into a department If you get the phd and you probably won't find out statistically if you got a shot But if you get the phd and if you get a tenure track position Which is not as easy as you have been led to believe But if you get that Then you're going to spend your time with professors who don't hold your view who regard you as some sort of an eccentric May regard you as a menace And certainly all things considered think you're the equivalent of the crazy ant in the attic And the reason for that is because all of them know that you believe they are dupes of john maynard canes, which in fact they are So you're in a high risk position from the moment you go through the system now textbooks You're not going to select the textbooks and I guarantee you this i don't care how good it is I mean even if it's a public choice textbook you get to the section on the federal reserve And you know what there's no analysis of the federal reserve in terms of what it is Which is a cartel established by the government to expand the state There'll be no mention of any analysis from from the chapter on cartels to apply to the federal reserve And that is not random that is the price of playing the game within the modern academic system You are going to be the odd man out for the remainder of your career This is if you get tenure and you probably won't because tenure Tenure track positions are hard to find not that many people get tenure Now if you think that's wrong you better find out in the university that may give you that job where How many people have gotten tenure in the school that you want to teach in over the last say 20 years Find out how many how many of them left how many of them are still Doddering to class with their catheters attached Because they're not leaving a hundred grand a year And if you get into the other system, which he's already mentioned Which is the adjunct professor. You're getting into the union. You've heard analysis of union earlier today The union is if you get in you get the hundred grand a year And if you don't get in you get thirty five grand a year and you don't get Retirement program and you don't get the medical care and you don't get any guarantees And how do you get the guarantees? How do you get the guarantees that's so good above market? You've heard about above market wages. Let me tell you how there's a guy with a badge And a gun and the gun is pointed at the belly of a taxpayer and the belly says I don't want to pay and the guy says you're going to pay You know my gut says I don't want to pay. I got this gun. I got this badge. You're going to pay That's state universities. That's where most of the jobs are now. You say well, I don't want to teach in state university I'll teach in a private university. There you got the cartel system through accreditation Another guy still got the gun still got the badge.  Do you want that the basis of your income? The badge and the gun in between you and the market You got to make that decision because someday there's going to be a bright young guy in the classroom Who says professor, I understand Austrian economics. How come you're here? And you better have an answer Not an easy answer The benefit of course is great The greatest of the benefits was articulated by a colleague of mine in 1968 when we were in a graduate seminar and the professor asked the question Why are you getting a phd? There was mumbling. There was fumbling. There was stumbling, but gordon getty's had the answer And the answer was I want a job where somebody will pay me to read That's a great answer. That's one of the great answers of all time The problem is the phd glut hit neither of us got our phd's Before the glut hit and he did not get the job spending the rest of his life being paid to read I did but I got it in the free market sense and had to work a lot harder than the hours that Dr. Block puts in But I do okay So the answer to it is count the costs look at the benefits make the decision in terms of your life as to whether you think you ought To get a phd in economics I think gary is absolutely right that our experience if I can speak for the both of us as students is very dated My experience in academia is not dated at all. I've been in it for the last I don't know how many years 40 years or so gary's experience in academia is very dated And I think that his understanding of it is uh, well, let me just say it's very different than mine Uh, yes, there are people who fail out of the program and every student that I've sent off to a graduate school Uh and left the program I felt like I was kicked in the teeth I uh, I worked with these students. These students were enthusiastic and they go to a school and then they leave I've had a lot of good luck with george mason I I don't think that what they teach there is good austrianism It's sort of the first cousins of austrianism as I see it But it's quasi demisemi austrianism and one of the good things about it is that the kids that go there come out with phd's Not always there are one or two that have not Uh, veger and vuk is one who is uh, he's an abd or he's got a masters or something, but it doesn't mean he's unemployable He's now working for dug casey. Yes, uh, not everybody who goes into the program comes out with a phd. Gary is absolutely right in in stressing that But there are schools where you can go and get the phd and they've got a pretty good record of churning out people with phd's Uh, gary talks about the room and board 50 000. We're going to a Ivy league school where you're enthralled to the canzians and he's quite right. That is a problem But the schools that i'm recommending and if you send me, uh, Request for this information i'll give you to you aren't like that gary's information is either not is either dated or Wrong or i'm not sure where he's getting his information from I'm certainly not advocating that people go to, uh, berkeley and get a phd there although peter went there and uh, seems to Be okay But if you go to berkeley, uh, or columbia where i went it's much more problematic uh, now what gary says is um You know, you're gonna go get a phd and you'll do it at the cost of learning austrianism now this i i Had a full head of hair before i started this uh debate and look at me now i mean This is 100 wrong or 180 degrees wrong or whatever the right metaphor is You go and study with guido holzman in in, uh, paris or not paris in france somewhere on jay And you tell me you're not going to learn austrian economics You go study with where did the soto in spain and you tell me you're not going to learn austrian economics You're going to be enthralled to canzians You go to sima In poland or matt mackay who is now in poland i i'm not sure where all these guys are i'm confused as to which Countries that are in europe they keep changing it But matt mackay, uh, won the uh the proof rong award two or three years ago. He's now a professor He's not teaching canzianism or if he is teaching canzianism He's doing it the way you and i and other professors here do it teach it and then show the problems with it So gary's information is, um, I don't know what made up or or just Made up out of the whole cloth. I don't know where he's getting this from Yes, if you go to harvard or columbia with stiglitz or berkeley or these other places Then he's absolutely right, but you don't have to go to those places you can get reasonable jobs at Places like where my former students are so i think gary is a hundred percent wrong on this You go to suffolk, we have two students are they here from suffolk, uh, I don't see them maybe they're downstairs Uh, they're learning austrian economics from ben pal One of the manish Won the proof rong last year. I think it was or the year before i'm i'm no historian So I don't remember these things, but but these are solid austrian students So you can't tell me that that you're going to be in thrall forever to canzianism You'll learn it. Yes, you have to learn canzianism You have to know what's wrong with it if you don't so much as know it then you you're out there with a ship without a rudder But you can learn, uh, canzianism and the critiques of canzianism from the some of these people Yes, there's an attrition ratio not everybody who goes to Graduate school comes out with the phd good abd's are not unemployable Usually they give you a master's if you don't finish your dissertation and you can get a job in any of these think tanks There are 50 state think tanks. There are many beltway think tanks Where having a master's degree would be an improvement over not having a master's degree um Yes, rothbard took 10 years But that was because author burns and he was at columbia He wasn't at any of these schools that i'm advocating what happened with poor murray is when author burns thank god for nixon because When nixon got author burns down in washington then murray snuck in and got his phd But as long as author burns was there he couldn't um do it um adjuncts Adjuncts are a problem of historians for political scientists and economics. There are so many alternatives to academia All the students that i know of my own personal students, they're not adjuncts. They've got the What do you call it assistant professor tenure track jobs? Some of them are too young to have gotten tenure, but many people have gotten tenure um So i i don't see that i mean yes not everyone gets tenure in my own case I didn't get tenure because i was really malvy i mean you know i accused him of extremism, but uh Truth be known i'm a bit of an extremist myself i couldn't keep my big yap shut and i kept wanting to debate my colleagues I should have shut up and got tenure, but that's a whole other a whole other area So gary is right you don't you don't get a hundred percent and and i i think that's very salutary his contribution to this debate Now this business of working in a state university Uh here gary and i have a philosophical disagreement. I've worked in state universities And uh, i don't see anything wrong with that. I think it's a virtue I think it's a mitzvah to take money from the goddamn government because they stole it from us in the first place look if if if gary If gary is is a little um unhappy with the prospect of taking money from a guy with A badge and a gun uh through uh coercion How did he get here? He got here on a on a on a on a private road. No on a government road gary shouldn't be on the government roads if he's going to be logically consistent gary has fiat currency in his wallet Not enough, but he's got some look I like to say that we don't really get much accomplished at the mesis university, but at least we have fun And we do have fun and actually we do get some stuff Accomplished look gary is falling into the the trap of our friends on the left our friends on the left say we're hypocrites because we're against uh Parks and museums and fiat currency in the post office and public roads and yet we use them So they say we're hypocrites. No those lefties are the hypocrites You look at a lefty who's an egalitarian look him in the eye and if he's got two eyes, he's a hypocrite Because he should have given up one of those eyes I mean if he followed his views now gary is falling into that trap He's saying that if you were if you go on a public street And I see no difference between a public street and a public university They're both public anything gary can say about the university I can say about the roads or the parks or the museums or the post office There's a man with a badge and a gun in all of these places So what gary is really saying the logical implication for that is either be a hermit or commit suicide And this is not a tenable tenable view Uh, so gary is falling into this trap with the lefties criticize us for being hypocrites. No, no, we're not hypocrites It's quite all right ragnar danish called my man From atlas shrug was forever going to government places and grabbing their money No problem with that They stole the money from us gary is absolutely right here. He and I are 100 percent in agreement. The state is is an abomination It's evil. It's stealing money But it's good to take money from them and if they'll give it to you for teaching in a public university. That's great So don't be ashamed When you uh, you know, I feel like uh, malcom X when he first started They were saying throw away your hair straighteners. Don't be ashamed of being black And I think this was magnificent. I'm a big fan of malcom X Well, I say throw away your views that you shouldn't teach in a public university And throw away your views that you shouldn't use the public roads I think gary is leading you astray. He's leading you down the garden path here. He is Accepting the the charge against us Now this ph the last point that I want to criticize gary on is this phd glut Yes, there's a phd glut for poets and and for other people who are driving cabs and stuff, but it's not true in economics So I I think gary makes some good points, but but his views are very dated Yes, things are different now than when we were both students mainly because it's much more heavily mathematicalized and statisticalized if I can use that as a word, but uh I'm basing my information on students that got their phd a year or two ago that you can't get more recent than that Thank you one of the fundamental positions in politics and I found in virtually every other field is the old rule that you can't beat something with nothing I have come out and I've said I don't think the pursuit of the phd is Not wrong for everybody, but it's a high-risk position You got to think through it very very carefully as to what you're really submitting to What you are committing to for the rest of your life in the system As it presently exists and is likely to exist in the future A 430 billion dollar a year oligopoly Which is established by the government protected by the government and exists at the behest of the government in order to strengthen the government I think you have to think very carefully about committing the rest of your life to that organization So i'm going to talk about alternatives. I'm going to talk about five four things first of all The position in malcolm gladwell's book outliers, which I think is a magnificent book that you need Approximately 10 000 hours of hard work to become a virtuoso doesn't mean you're going to be a virtuoso if you Invest 10 000 hours, but if you don't invest 10 000 hours, you're not going to be a virtuoso for basic Real competency of mastery of a field about 5000 hours Now from my position is 50 hours a week for about two years that will give you at least mastery You can do that either as a master's program learning Keynesian economics and mathematics or you can do it on your own Through the materials that are available through mesence institute and you can become a real master of austrian economic theory I think that is a wise way to go and certainly a reasonable way in terms of What most of us want to do with our lives if you have to get a job fine You work 40 hours a week in the job you put 20 hours a week in Whatever time you're going to invest in in mastering austrian economics And it takes five years instead of two years if you want to be a virtuoso It's going to take 10 years So you'd be 30 31 something like that when you really have a demonstrated competency Real performance ability in the field of austrian economics And you can do it while getting paid a regular salary By a regular organization That is not I believe compromised by the state Now there's another point I want to go on to which is there's a much broader audience than college students And that audience is enormous and it's growing very rapidly and Ron Paul is one of the reasons why it's growing so rapidly We have a market that is immense today compared with as recently as four years ago and it's growing rapidly And we got we got congress working hard We got congress working hard to grow it even more rapidly So this is a trip We're on the right side of the transaction between the government and us because they're going to screw it up And we're going to profit from it in terms of Once again coming down to the public and saying the magnificent phrase that we all love We told you so Okay, and More important we told you why? We told you why and mises told us why? So your market is growing very very rapidly Compared to a few students in a classroom who are going through to get their Their tickets punched most of them in undergraduate classes unless you get a tenured position Those students going through getting their ticket punched are not there to get Austrian economics They're getting their tickets punched in a department that is Keynesian or Freedmanian They're not there for you. They're there for them And the quid pro quo is we run ourselves through a system that is in opposition to Austrian economics And by the way if you get on the faculty in most schools That's the game you got to play the textbooks are going to be Non-Austrian and you got no say in the matter You're going to teach them what you don't believe is true for the rest of your life And they don't care and they won't remember you and they won't probably learn Austrian economics from you At least the undergraduate level now you may if you get tenure, but that's way down the track What i'm saying is go to the people who want Austrian economics go to the market that is interested in it and go to it now Now how do you do it third point the internet and now i'm going to get into what i do and have done What mesis institute does better than any other organization in the world with the possible exception of lou rockwell.com And i'm going to tell you how it's done First you get your own youtube channel and you get it before the end of the week And if you don't know how to get it you go to my site garynorth.com and you can find A free section of videotapes on or not videotapes boy am i dating myself of videos of digital videos On how to start a youtube channel Simple free next thing you do start a wordpress.com blog site and you can start more than one Write on a regular basis get your ideas in front of yourself. Why do i write? Why does any write or write to find out what i believe? And that's the truth now you better get it clear before you click the thing that says post Okay, get that clear first, but you write and the discipline of writing you get better and better like any other skill That's what i did the most important skill i got out of graduate school was how to sell the freemen an article And that put me through graduate school and it opened up my first career That i wrote my way into this movement because i needed the money and because i believed in the system You can you've got to get wordpress.com then you get your own website at some point using wordpress.org software Which is free you get yourself a microphone for 20 bucks is all it takes is an external mic you begin screen casting You get kindle kindle now for any book under 10 bucks They'll give you 70 of the money that comes through the door If you got something to say put it on kindle and sell the thing So you go to the website you go to video editing software you get a webcam And you you do the talking head with a lavalier mic where they can hear it and understand it Wouldn't you like to abandon the guys who did the hyac versus canes rap video? three and a half million hits Dwarfing any professor who's run through here in terms of impact That's my strong opinion. Now only a few guys can do it, but it can be done It's free and it's powerful and it stays up virtually forever right for lou rockwell.com right for mesis Get your spurs doing productive writing for an audience that wants to listen to what you have to say And finally if you really are any good if you're really any good Teach on mesis academy and make a decent living on the side If you got something to say that anybody is willing to pay for you don't need accreditation You don't join the cartel you go to people and offer what you have got to sell Based on what they want to buy and mesis Sits in the middle with the software and enables you to do that And finally let me get to the fourth point. How good are you if you are really any good? You don't need a phd You don't need a phd if you know what you're doing And if you're really good like henry has that you don't even need to go to college okay The the point being how competent are you you can go through the hoops if you're really not very good Or if you you're after that lifetime income that you think you're going to get You can go through the hoops the kansey and hoops the bureaucratic hoops which proves that you can go through academic bureaucratic hoops to which I say Hoop de do What you gotta do is master the field and produce which is videos audios Books articles if you've got it Do it if you don't have it Then you may have to find a different approach But my my approach has been go to the market And i'm very grateful that mesis and that lou rockwell Did this on my behalf and on behalf of the millions of people who wind up reading these materials because I Can write one article on lou rockwell.com And reach more people than a professor can reach through his entire academic career And if you write two or three articles all the better So the so my basic point is this if you can speak if you can write if you can think if you are disciplined If you if you do the hard work that you need to do to master a field if you put in the 10 000 hours On what's true and not on what is false If there's a market you can make money and if there's no market get out of the field How do we determine who wins this debate? If we determine it on the basis of spontaneous applause and laughter He wins He's magnificent. I mean he's really a good public speaker But if we determine it on a different basis He loses and I want to I I want to offer Three criteria for judging this on the basis of which he loses First of all, it seems to me that if you go 180 degrees off of your initial position If you're converted by the other guy god damn it you lose Now you read the stuff he's been writing on lou rockwell Rockwell.com about this stuff and he isn't saying anything like I don't say you shouldn't get your phd. That's my quote of what he just said Rather just be careful. It's a high risk. Well, that's my position Namely right before your eyes. He changed his his views now. I call that losing the debate Don't believe me go and read what he's written on this subject He never said anything in those articles that I criticized about oh well I don't say no one should get a phd. Uh, just be careful He didn't say that at all and yet he said that five minutes ago Or two minutes ago whenever it was he changed his views That means he lose the debate and that's very important because the the future of our movement is is involved here And if he keeps convincing people not to go and get a phd Our movement will be greatly weakened. I don't know why he's trying to undermine our movement in this way And I think it's horrible Okay, so that's one criteria of winning a debate if you change your views you lose the debate The second one is are you responsive to the other guy? Now I've taken notes on what he said and I've tried to been responsive to what he said and he's not being responsive to what I said now for example He's talking about Keynesianism in mathematics.  I'm putting it in my own words But that's what he said Go talk to Gido Holtzman Ask him if he's shoving Keynesian and mathematics down his students' throats Go talk to ben powell or talk to ben powell students who are here And ask them if they're getting this stuff shoved down their throats now. I he said that I Criticized it and in his last debate he ignores it Well, if you ignore the other guy's statements, you lose the debate. You're supposed to be responsive He's not again. He's repeating this this nonsense about Not being compromised by the state He says if you go teach And here I agree with him most of the places you're going to go except for grove city and hillsdale are going to be public universities And he goes on and on and he waxes eloquent about how horrible it is to be in a public university But he he is not responsive to my point if if that were true Then you shouldn't be using the public rose and you shouldn't be using fiat currency Then you shouldn't be going to public parks museums whatever he doesn't respond to that. He ignores that You lose the debate It seems to me if you don't respond to these things laughter and applause will not win you the debate And that's what he's got here, but when it comes to the substance of it He ignores it He ignores the the opposite point of view and he gets you to laugh and applaud which is all well and good And I wish I could do it myself I I I can't but I'll I'll be content with just the substance this business of Working 40 hours a week and then studying 20 hours a week on your own. Come on. Give me a break If you work 40 hours a week in a bank or an insurance company, you're tired Compare that with going to graduate school and study with guido holtsman or or ben powell or Pete becky who I don't agree with on much, but he turns out those people There you're spending 60 hours a week learning economics not all of it austrian economics Yes, but you have to learn the Keynesian crap and I stand I stand next to no one in terms of my revulsion at Keynesian, but you have to learn it. You can't just learn austrianism You have to learn the other stuff, too And then this other point If you're really good Come on. Most of us in mediocre and I include myself No, seriously, most of us are not Henry Haslitz most of us are not Ludwig von Mises is most of us are not Murray Rothbard's Goddamn it. We're We're just mediocre. We're just trying our best to promote liberty and promote economic understanding So this he's leading you down the garden path. You don't have to be excellent You don't have to be a murray Rothbard You can just be a mediocre person like myself and others and and do your best and and you can earn a living at this But but he's he's right. He says you don't need a phd. Well phd helps.  That he didn't make a response For i've been saving this And for those listening on the video you must get To substantiate what i'm saying A copy of dr. Bloch's speech on unemployment He made an eloquent case Against the trade unions he made i think a moral case against the trade unions The moral corruption of using government Guns and badges to keep people out of a field To create a cartel By violence and the threat of violence To create whole industries based on violence and guns and badges Now if he's going to believe his own position On the evils of the trade unions And the moral evil of using violence to keep people out of a field to keep them from teaching To teach them from offering competitive services to create unemployment To lock good people out because they did not conform to the rules of the trade union if he believes that One more time Why are you teaching in a university at a hundred and seventy thousand dollars a year? Why and that ain't funny. That's a moral question I'll tell you who my model was and he's been my model for 35 years and that was dominic armantano Now he said he'd never go into a state university taught the university of of art And i thought that was a strong position But the bottom line is If you go into academia, it is a government cartel That's taken four hundred and thirty billion dollars a year out of the american economy To sell overpriced Goods to students who are running running up now 24,000 dollars of debt And parents running up bigger quantities paying overpriced Cartelized prices for third-rate products And if you ever break the cartel you're going to see the production of what really needs to be done is wal-mart university Because I got no choice. I don't sell my soul to the devil to get his pay That's why walter and that's not funny But that's the truth do not sell your soul to the system That you say you don't believe in and that your economics say is wrong When that system is a government established cartel And they're all there are alternatives. There is mesis academy. There are private schools that are not Regulated by the state. There are homeschool programs. There's a way to make a living Without joining the the labor union of the modern academic system Yes, you can profit if you get on the right side of the trade if you leap the high barrier And get across and get that 10-year position. Yeah, it's profitable But every time you hear the story about above market wages You got a look for the question. Where's the gun? Where's the badge and who's being left out of the system? That's what we do as an austrian school economist Who wins who loses when you got winners look for the losers And if there's a guy with a gun and a badge Standing between the loser and success. I say don't be associated with the gun or the badge Well, let's please join me once more in thanking both of our participants