Okay, welcome to the Amherst Historical Commission public hearing and public meeting on Thursday, March 25 2021. At 630pm, based on Governor Baker's executive order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law, general laws chapter 30 a paragraph 20 and signed Thursday, March 12 2020. The hearing and meeting is being held virtually using the zoom platform. The public can listen to the proceedings by visiting the town's homepage and navigating to the town calendar toward the bottom of that page, clicking on the meeting schedule for March 25, where the zoom link and telephone connections can be found. My name is Jane Wald and as chair of the Amherst Historical Commission I'm calling this meeting to order at 633pm. This meeting is being recorded and minutes are being taken as usual. I'll now take attendance by roll call board members as you hear your name called unmute yourself answer affirmative affirmatively and then please place yourselves back on mute. Present. Robin Fordham. Present. Janet Markort present. Do you want me to take minutes since the other Jane isn't here. Thank you. That would be great. That would be great. Thank you. Jane Scheffler is not here. Present. And Jane Wald I'm here too. So I have a few housekeeping comments for board members. If technical difficulties arise we may need to pause temporarily to rectify the problem and then then continue the meeting. If you do have technical issues, please let Ben know through the chat. Discussion may be suspended while the technical issues are addressed and the minutes will note if a disconnection has occurred. In orderly discussion please use the raise hand function to ask a question or make a comment. I'll see you raised hand and call upon you to speak. Ben Breger will assist me in keeping track of commission members who wish to be recognized. After speaking, please remember to read mute yourself to members of the public opportunity for public comment will be provided during the public hearing and during the general public period and at other appropriate times throughout the meeting. Please be aware that commission will take note of comments but will not necessarily respond to them during public comment periods. If members of the public wish to make a comment during a public comment period, you must join the meeting via the zoom teleconferencing link or video conferencing link link explained above. These links can be found on the town home page calendar listing and meeting agenda. Again for members of the public please indicate you wish to make a comment by clicking the raised hand the raise hand button when public comment is solicited. If you've joined the zoom meeting using a telephone please indicate you wish to make a comment by pressing star nine on your phone. If you're called on, please identify yourself by stating your full name and address and put yourself back into mute when finished speaking. Residents are welcome to express their views for up to three minutes and at the discretion of the commission chair. If, if the speaker exceeds their allotted time, their participation may be disconnected. Moving on to the public hearing in accordance with the provisions of Massachusetts general laws chapter 40 a and article 13 demolition delay of the Amherst zoning bylaw. This public hearing has been duly advertised and notice thereof has been posted and mailed to parties that interest. The historical commission is holding this public hearing to provide an opportunity for interested citizens to be heard regarding the following demolition application requests. North Amherst library map five a parcel 38 owned by the town of Amherst. This is a request for the partial demolition of the north wall and chimney of the approximately 1893 library to enable a proposed addition to attach to the existing library. Next will be 37 North Pleasant Street map 14 a parcel 49 owned by Barry Roberts. This was a request for the full demolition of an approximately 1900 wood frame two story commercial building copies of the demolition permit application and other historical information on the affected properties are available at this hearing. The public hearing is now open. I will take just a few minutes to explain the goals and procedure for this public hearing so I hope you'll bear with me. Section 13 of the town's zoning bylaw governing demolition delay for structures of historical or architectural significance declares that as a matter of public policy, the economic, cultural and aesthetic standing of the town of Amherst can best be maintained and enhanced by due regard for the historical and architectural heritage of the town. By striving to discourage the destruction of such cultural assets, the protection enhancement perpetuation and use of structures of historical and architectural significance located within the town of Amherst is a public necessity, and is required in the interests of the prosperity, civic pride and general welfare of the people. So that's a quote from the bylaw itself. In Massachusetts general laws in the town of Amherst zoning bylaw, the Amherst historical commission is responsible for enacting the purposes and procedures of this policy. The procedure for the public hearing will be that the commission will hear testimony as follows. First, a report or presentation by the applicant. Second, additional information from town staff if any, anything new has arisen. Third, questions from commission members. Fourth, a request for public comment or public testimony. The applicant's response to such comments. Six final comments and questions from the members of the historical commission and staff. Seventh, at the conclusion of public comment, the hearing will then be closed or continued to a future date and time certain. When closed, the historical commission will begin deliberations based on review of standards for designation as a significant structured enumerated in section 13.4 of the zoning bylaw, as well as information filed with the demolition application and testimony received during this hearing. As members of the public attending this meeting, the historical commission's deliberations may result in one of three outcomes. It may be that the commission reaches a finding that the building is not a significant structure according to bylaw criteria. In that case, the demolition permit is approved. A finding that the building is a significant structure according to bylaw criteria, but that the proposed demolition would not be detrimental to the historical or architectural heritage or resources of the town. In that case, the demolition permit is approved. There may be a finding that the building is a significant structure according to bylaw criteria, and that the proposed demolition would be detrimental to the historical or architectural heritage or resources of the town. In that case, the demolition permit may be delayed. The historical commission may put conditions on on its decision. It is understood that the purview of the historical commission in this public hearing is only to assess the public interest in preservation of existing structures. According to the current bylaw, it is outside the scope of this commission's deliberations to consider or comment on subsequent use of the site, or pending development plans. The concerns can be transmitted to the planning board, zoning board of appeals or design review board as appropriate. So now we'll turn to the first demolition permit request. This is North Amherst library map 5a parcel 38 owned by the town of Amherst. This is the request for the partial demolition of the North wall and chimney of the approximately 1893 library to enable the proposed addition to attach to the existing library. So first I'll invite a report or presentation from the applicant. And I see Chris Farley is with us. Thank you very much. My name is Chris Farley. I'm an architect with Cune riddle architects in Amherst. And I, I think I have what I think is a very brief presentation. Ben, should I go ahead and share my screen. Yeah, if you have it up, you can go ahead and do it. I also have the application. I think I'm going to go ahead and share it. So the North Amherst library. I'm going to kind of jump right to the, the proposed demolition and the purposes for it so the, we've been working with the town and have designed a an addition to this. The, what is essentially the back of the north side of the library. That's what we're looking at here. The addition was proposed by the town for, for, for three primary purposes one is to provide full accessibility to the library. The library is currently not accessible. The only entry at the south side, which is the opposite side of the building from this has a set of steps about seven risers that go up to it. So the new addition will provide full accessibility. It will also provide a new meeting room and fully accessible bathrooms for the public for library functions and community functions. And also, part of the project is to upgrade the systems in the existing library, as well as provide new systems for the, for the addition. Those include new mechanical systems, new fire alarm for the, for the existing library new, new LED energy efficient lighting, and some other, some other minor, minor improvements. So in order to make the connection to the proposed addition. We are proposing removal of a section of wall. It's about 15 feet by 15 feet. And that's that's this section here that's outlined in red. It is mostly siding. There is a little bit of foundation wall at the bottom and a couple of trance and windows and some trim at the top. The intention here is to remove really the minimal amount of historic fabric, so that we can make this connection to the new to the new entry. To the to the new addition. As part of the this connection with the proposed addition. The chimney, which you can see here above the roof line that goes all the way down inside the framing of the building all the way down to the basement. There is an existing fireplace in the library on the inside. And in order to make the physical connection. To make this wall up to the existing library level that chimney and fireplace will have to be removed as well so it doesn't the chimney doesn't have a huge presence on the outside but obviously there is a presence here above the roof. The intention is that that chimney would be improved. And there would be replacement slates. To patch the hole in the roof. We, we've tried to to have the new, the proposed addition connect in a small an area as possible. We wanted to preserve all of the, the primary windows in the building. We wanted to be able to have the, the corners of the building be unencumbered by any, any new architecture. And so we've really tried to keep it to a minimum, and this space will allow for a wheelchair lift, a new stairway going up to the library level from the new entry, the new entry, which will be in the addition, and a new stairway going down to the basement for staff use. So this is a color elevations this is the front of the library here on the right, you can see that there is a set of about a half a flight of steps, going up to the building. We chose to, to look at an addition off the back of the building so that we could preserve the front of the building without having to look at putting any sort of a ramp or a lift or something. The building is highly symmetrical. Any sort of an addition like a ramp or a lift, we thought would really compromise this, this primary facade this entry facade, which is why we've, we've looked on the, to the back to put the addition. Let's see here. The building was built in 1893. The architect was Roswell Field Putnam. He was a well known architect at the time, and designed quite a few library buildings as well as many residences and Northampton and Amherst. That's, I think that's really pretty much it. In it. I think I'm going to leave my presentation there. Okay, thank you. Next is, if town staff have any additional information about this project that you would like to share. Yeah, I think Chris did a good overview, a great overview of the demolition proposal. The planning is, you know, it's the chimney being removed and the back wall section as described and that's to enable the attachment of the addition. Library. This has been the addition has been reviewed by the design review board. And I believe the addition is also pending site plan review or is soon to be reviewed by the planning board and site plan review. See the other, you know, 1893 that's when the library was constructed to my knowledge. The, in the listing on the state register of historic places it's recognized as possibly the first free library in Amherst. As the library association was developed in 1869 so quite a bit beforehand. And another kind of like historical consideration is that the North Amherst Library is a contributing structure to the North Amherst Center National Historic District. So just for your knowledge as well. Okay, thank you Ben. Are there questions from members of the historical commission. Roman. I just had a question. Can, Ben, can you refresh my memory about and or Jane about. I know that I'm guessing that there. When did the Secretary of the Interior's standards come into play that's one thing I'm just not. I don't know. I know it's a thing. And I don't know what role it has. I think this current version, I believe it is 1990 ish. I might be wrong about that. But I think it's about that old. Perhaps the question is, maybe a question is whether this project needs to be reviewed by the State Historical Commission. Yeah, I think that I'm just trying to understand it if that's part of the process. We, we are in the process of submitting a PNF project notification form to Mass Historic for the project. Yeah, I will say I'm, I think a separate conversation might need to happen with the Historical Commission regarding our, you know, support for the project overall. As I think the State Historic Commission would look to us as a further as the local Historic Commission for that request. Yeah, I think that's correct. Heady, you have a question. Yes. Thank you so much, Chris. I just wanted to ask you about the possible significance of the fireplace. And if you could talk a little bit more about how that's being handled in relation to the wall coming down. Sure. So, as well as I said that the, you know, the fireplace and, and except for the chimney above the roof, all the rest of that masonry is on the inside of the building. And it is, I'm not sure if you've been to the, to the library recently. It's, it's quite a small space it's, it's only about 850 square feet, the footprint. And, and right now the library does have some some materials displayed in front of the fireplace. I'll be honest, I haven't actually seen the firebox. There is, there is some woodwork above the firebox above the mantle that matches the interior of the rest of the room. And I think our intention is that the fireplace proper the masonry portion of the fireplace will simply be removed. But, but we would like to, to salvage some of that interior woodwork to finish off the new opening that goes into the, into the addition to, to, to try to preserve as much of that existing detail and woodwork as possible. That's our, that's our intention of how to, how to handle that. Chris, I have a question, just clarification that the, the gable on the north side is not that remains that's not part of the demolition request. You're exactly right that the gable, the dormer will remain. It is just the chimney above the roof, which, which isn't shown here. That will be removed. And this section of wall be between the windows. So everything else you see here in this, in this colored elevation will remain. Thank you. I just would like to say that as your rep on the design view board, I did see the full presentation of the addition along with this. And even though it was a little painful to think about losing the fireplace, the addition is so appropriate to the space matches this building. It fits so nicely from ground level up into this and back adds, you know, all the things that this library lacks. And I think that they're really what they do to this building without having something more significant to the architectural form. So, as much as I hate touching any of these Victorian buildings, I think that this their solution was the best that could happen and we gave them some suggestions about some of the details that we wanted them to rethink and Chris has been really open about that. And is planning to do so. And I just want to say that, in spite of how we might, you know, be concerned about hurting this building, I really think in this particular case, it will be for the best. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate that. Thank you. My hand is, is up but that may be a hold over. Oh, okay. Are there any other questions or comments from commission members. All right, then, then we will open this to public comment. There are members of the public I see a hand from my gauge. I could be able to unmute and new to thank you. There I am. Hi, and this is Meg gauge I live at 208 Montague Road, about a half mile down from the library. I'm thrilled by this plan. And everyone I know is as well. They're always compromises the fireplace, for example, the trees that were lost, the two trees, although we'll replant some. I speak for myself, but also the district one neighborhood association has had a public conversation about this and everyone was enthusiastic there wasn't one single comment made. We think the design that Chris, the little did was brilliant in that it keeps the Queen Anne style. It's interesting the idea that not change the front. I had thought well we'll just put a ramp up but I think the design that you all came up with is much better. This is a really key part of our village center. It's part of our historic National Historic District. A lot of our kids learn to read in this library. And it's been a really important part of our neighborhood and I can't speak. I could keep going on and on, but I won't. I'm very enthusiastic about it, but more important, everyone I know around here is enthusiastic about it and we hope people in town will think of getting their books picked up here because it's such a convenient place to drive to. Anyway, total appreciation of the plan. Thank you. Thank you. Are there other comments. All right then. Seeing none. I'll invite Chris Farley to make any further observations he would like to. I just want to say I very much appreciate all the comments about the addition. We do feel like it's. In particular how it how the new addition attaches to the existing building. It is, is pretty sensitively done so it's it's really nice to have that affirmation from, from board members and from the public so thank you for that. And are there any final comments or questions from members of the commission or from town staff. And then. So we may now close the public hearing and turn to commission deliberations. So the public hearing is now closed and perhaps we could begin by. Sorry, my cat is meowing in the background. Asking for a motion. And Jan. I was just about to say I think we need a motion. I move that we close the public hearing. Okay. Thank you. Is there a second. Second. Thank you, Robin. Let's see, because we're on zoom, I think we will do this as a roll call. All in favor, Patricia off. In favor. Thank you, Robin Fordham. A favor. Jen Marquardt. Yes. Heady start up. Yes. And Jane Wald, I agree. Yes. All right. Now we'll need to turn to reviewing the standards for designation as a significant structure as enumerated in section 13.4 of the zoning bylaw. For information for members of the public who are listening in. The commission. Meeting only one. Of the criteria is sufficient for designation as a significant structure. And then from that point, the commission. Deliberates on. The. Appropriateness or not of. Approving the demolition permit or. So perhaps we could start that with, with a motion. Robin. I was going to ask if the standards could be placed on the screen. That's a good idea. I guess I moved to begin discussion of the standards. Or you could move. You could move to. Yeah. We'll do it. We'll tell you what, I, maybe I've got this out of order. We'll, we'll go through the standards and then we'll have a motion about what to, what to do about the. The demolition. Application. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. So the first. Criterion is that the property. Is it listed on, or is it within an area listed on the national register of historic places? Or is the subject of a pending application for listing on said register. And we understand already that yes, it is a contributing structure in a national register district. Yeah, yeah, I'm happy just to show everyone briefly. This is the national register. District for the, or what is it called the sheet for the listing of the North Amherst Center historic district. And you can see here. Listed under. Under it here. Go back here. Okay. Thank you. Next, the commission determines that the structure meets one or more of the following criteria of. Historical architectural or geographic importance and will take. Subheads from each of these three. General categories. So for historical importance. The structure meets the criteria of historical importance. If it first has character, interest or value. As part of the development heritage or cultural characteristics of the town of Amherst. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts or the nation. And we can. Discuss or we can just go right to. Right to a vote. For each of these. So why don't we go right to a vote? Yes. Thank you. Yeah. So. Pat. Yes. Okay. Robin. Yes. Jan. Yes. Eddie. Yes. And I agree. Yes. Okay. Next. Is this, is it the site of an historic event? And Pat. I think it's a historic building, but not necessarily known events. Robin. No. Jan. Not as far as we know at this point. Heady. Agreed with Jan. Not as far as we know. And I agree. We don't know that it is. Next. Is it identified with a person or a group of persons who had some influence on society. And Pat. I don't know that we know that. Okay. Robin. No, not to our knowledge. Jan. I imagine some of our famous writers, little beyond the writer's walk probably went in there, may have written there, but we don't have any stories that specifically connect this building. So I would say no. Okay. Heady. No, not at this time. Okay. And I, I agree that we don't know. So I'm going to say no. Okay. Last. In historical importance is whether the building exemplifies the cultural, political, economic, social or historic heritage of the community. And this time. I'll give Pat a break and we'll ask. Yes. Jan. Yes. I think. Yes. Robin. Yes. And Pat. Yes. And I agree. I think it is. Very significant in that respect in the, especially the cultural heritage of the community. Next, there are four criteria under architectural importance. First does it portray the environment of a group of people in an era of history characterized by a distinctive. Architectural style. Heady. Yes. Jan. Sorry, I'm trying to take notes and then also. All right. Okay. Yes, I think it does the Victorian style. Okay. Robin. Yes. Pat. Yes. And I vote yes. Does it embody those distinguishing characteristics of an architectural type. And Pat. Yes. Robin. Yes. Jan. Yes. Heady. Yes. And I vote yes also. Is it the work of an architect master builder or craftsman whose individual work has influenced the development of the town? I'm going to start this time. I say yes. Let's see. Heady. Yes. Well, I'm not entirely sure that it influenced the town. Maybe if it was the first. Neo medieval building in town, but certainly having a library by somebody who was famous for building libraries, maybe. We don't really need to say yes, because we're saying yes and everything else, but. I'm not sure about that. I'm going to say no. Okay. And. Okay, I've lost track Robin. Already asked you. Nope. Nope. I'm, I'm also going to say no. Okay. And Pat. I would say no, it's a master architect, but I'm not sure other than develop the development of the North Amherst. I'm not sure. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if it's influenced otherwise. So the way I, I just to explain my. Vote. I read this as. Is it the work of an architect whose individual work influenced the development of the town? And I think. Russell Putnam. Was the architect for a great many. Buildings of this period. So that's. That's why I think he's influenced the town. Okay. And finally for architectural importance. Does. Does this building contain elements of architectural design, tail materials or craftsmanship. Which represents a significant innovation. And Pat. Let's start with you. I think not. Robin. No. No, I don't think so. It was typical of a period. Heady. No, it's very typical. And I agree. And vote no. Finally. Is geographic importance. The structure meets the criteria of geographic importance. Whether it's a square park or other distinctive area. And. Again. Maybe they'll work from the middle this time. Jan. Um, Well. Yeah, I mean, it's distinctive on that V in the middle of North Amherst. Even. I mean, it's not a square or a park, but it is. Um, a significant. Corner on the road. Um, I'd say yes. Okay. Um, heady. I think I'm going to say yes too. Okay. Uh, Robin. Yeah. Yes. Uh, Pat. Yes. And yes, I agree. Yes. Um, and then finally the structure as to its unique location or its physical characteristics represents an established and familiar visual feature of the neighborhood village center or the community as a whole. And Pat. Would you begin. Yes. Okay. And Robin. Yes. Jan. Absolutely. Um, heady. Yes, especially from the front. Okay. Thank you. And yes, I, uh, I agree. Um, so, uh, we have, uh, voted affirmatively on one, two. Three, four, five. Six, seven criteria. Um, so I believe we've established that, uh, this is a significant structure. Uh, and we now. Um, Now it's time to deliberate on, uh, whether it, uh, it's. Whether the suggested demolition, uh, would have a detrimental impact on public interest. I'll invite any, any comments about that. Um, Jan. Well, I'll just repeat what I said before. I think that, um, the demolition is minor. It is tastefully, um, set within the connection to the addition. I don't think it would be detrimental at all to the current building and certainly using that to, um, connect to the new building will be, uh, beneficial. Um, so I would say no, it won't be dem detrimental and should be approved application. Um, Pat. Um, I agree with Jan. I think it would actually be an enhancement of the. Um, building and its use on the historic site without disrupting its historic architecture or place in history. You and Robin. Uh, I'm in agreement with both Jan and Pat. Um, uh, would someone like to make a motion about how we should, uh, apply the application for a demolition permit. And I see. Jan's hand. I move that we approve the application for demolition of the fireplace and chimney in the North wall of the North library in order to allow penetration of the building. Um, for a connection to the addition. Being built to the North. Um, I have to write down, don't I? We'll speak slowly for a while. And, uh, Pat. I second that motion. Thank you. And, uh, would you like a moment, Jan? Yes, please. Thank you. Um, Thank you. All right. Um, great. Thank you. I have a roll call vote on the motion that's been seconded. Uh, oh, yes. I need to ask if there's any further discussion. All right. Then, um, let's, let's go to a vote. Pat, would you cast your vote? I agree. Okay. Um, Robin. I agree. Jan. Yes. Heady. Yes. And I vote yes. So, uh, the outcome of this vote is that, uh, the motion is approved, meaning the building is a significant structure, but proposed demolition would not be dent detrimental to the, the. Demolition that is proposed would not be detrimental to the historical or architectural heritage or resources of the town. So the demolition permit will be approved and, um, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. Um, Ben, would you like to, um, convey anything about how that happens? Yeah, certainly. Um, so the. Historical commission will provide guidance to the building commissioner to approve the demolition, you know, as long as all the other, uh, Health and building codes are met, which I'm sure they are. Um, the. Um, let them know that historical has already reviewed this and that it's in their purview to approve the site plan review. Um, so I will look out for an email. I'll transmit the result of this, uh, to Rob more of the building commissioner into Chris Breastrup planning director. And, um, yeah, look forward to seeing the project move forward. And if in the future, there's anything you need from us in your, uh, discussions with state or mass historic, certainly let us know. We'd be happy to help. Well, thank you very much. Um, and, and, and thank you for the decision very much appreciated. Thank you. Thank you for, uh, bringing this to us, Chris. Appreciate it. Pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. So let's see now. Let's, uh, let's go to the second demolition permit request. Um, the public hearing is now open for, uh, 37 North Pleasant street. This is map 14 a parcel 49 owned by Barry Roberts. And it's a request for the full demolition. Of, uh, a turn of the 20th century wood frame two story commercial building. Um, so, uh, welcome. So, um, Barry and Tom. And if you would, um, please, uh, Uh, You're free to present any, any information you would like to. I think I'm going to let Tom do the presenting. I'm happy to answer any questions. He's a much better public speaker than I am. So. Tom, that's up to you. Might be having technical difficulties. Um, I wonder. Is it possible to. There we go. I have to resort. Okay. Can you hear me? Yes. Yeah. It was frozen for a second there, but. Okay. Uh, We do that. So, um, good evening, madam chair, members of the commission. Uh, I've been, you've been doing a great job. Uh, I'm Tom reading an attorney with bacon Wilson out of Amherst here on behalf of 37 North pleasant street LLC. Owned by Barry Roberts, uh, in this demolition delay, um, application, hopefully to get it waived. And so I think you've, um, you're probably familiar with the site. Uh, currently McMurphy's Amherst typewriter. Um, I think that's a good point. Um, as well as the former boys and girls club and even more formerly, the, the night. Well, I think you would put together that PowerPoint presentation with his excellent. Um, It is, uh, an old structure. Uh, but, but I think our contention would be it is not significant. Um, historically, architecturally or geographically. Um, Um, I think we did a really wonderful job of pulling together some of the folks who had, um, Um, used it, whether it was their businesses, I think is what you saw. Uh, but it didn't seem like any of those folks with all due respect to them. Um, were individually important. And so, you know, what we're asking for obviously is for the, the right to take down, uh, that building, those buildings.  Um, they're not in the best state of repair. Uh, and, and they've probably seen the end of, of their useful life. And Barry, I don't know if you want to add anything to just the state of repair of those buildings. Yeah. It's pretty interesting. I actually, uh, was on a second floor of the bank building. Uh, yesterday looking over, and you can see what a sway back to roof is. And the South wall is really a bowed out, but I just think the building is functionally obsolescent. I think it's, you know, time to get a new build in there. Yeah.  So unfortunately, unlike the North Amherst library where they were just taken down a piece, we would be looking for the complete demolition of those buildings. Obviously happy to answer any questions that you have. Um, but I think that's, it's, it's a pretty simple presentation. Okay. Thank you. Um, Ben, do you, uh, have other information you'd like to share? We appreciate your supplementing what we, um, what we've already received, but is there anything else you'd like to add? Um, I would just add a few notes, um, fill in the gaps. I'll, I'll go ahead and just share this PowerPoint. Um, and all the panelists have seen this, but for the benefit of the members of the public, uh, today. So the buildings in question, um, I will know it's 37 North pleasant is McMurphy's, but I believe Amherst typewriter is also included in this, uh, proposal. So that's at 41 North pleasant. But, um, so we're referring to this building in red here, um, that fronts North pleasant street, the, uh, building currently is home to McMurphy's and the Amherst typewriter. Um, and I just, uh, I was able to collect historical imagery, um, of that shows the building, um, going back to 1887, I believe. Um, and you know, I think my, you know, I, I did, I dug through the tax records. I dug through the deeds and everything. I could, um, that was available to me to try to figure out exactly when various architectural features were replaced or repaired or, you know, trying to understand what's original and what's not. Um, I didn't get very far. There's not, you know, it's hard to document every window and every door and every facade and every little bits and pieces being replaced. But I think, you know, it's easy to see it's, you know, and it's vinyl siding. The windows are, you know, modernized. So it's not original at this point. Um, and I'll just take you on a brief little slide show. Um, this is from Jones library special collections. Um, you can see the nights of Columbus building here. Uh, along the North pleasant street. Um, similar a little bit later, 1895. Uh, 1910, you see the two story building next door up here. Uh, you know, those two windows are very distinct. Um, and you know, it's interesting with these pictures, you can see the change in technology. You see the automobile come to Amherst. Um, with these buildings still intact. You see elm trees lining the street, which we don't have anymore. Uh, this is an aerial, uh, from 1946, a mid century and you zoom in and you can, you know, to the right here, you can see the buildings. And it looked like that by then the third building had been, uh, built, you know, Judy's restaurant wasn't there at this point. Um, and I believe that came later on in the century. Uh, McMurphy's, what's now McMurphy's used to have house, a restaurant, the colonial restaurant, um, mid century. And there was where the typewriter store is was a shoe, shoe cobbler. Um, And you know, you can see here there. I guess they're tearing up the trolley lines. Another, you know, change in technology. Uh, and, uh, you can see the buildings here. 1961. Same thing. Same day. 1961. Uh, You can see Bar Salades is a, it was a long time Amherst establishment, I believe, uh, from 1933 to early 2000s, a bar was located here. And that since, uh, was kind of added to the Judy's restaurant. So that, that doesn't exist anymore in its current, in its old form. Um, so it's really, you know, this building from here to here that we're referring to. Uh, yeah, that's what I mentioned here. So Judy's kind of what I'm using the word annexed the building kind of incorporated into their. The sod. Um, and yeah, lastly, I mentioned this, uh, because, uh, the building, um, is not located, is not a contributing structure to the central Amherst, or Amherst central business district, national register of historic places. Um, if you read through the entry for the Amherst central business district, uh, it talks about the northern part of the building. And the district stands just south of the alley. That leads to the parking area behind main street. So that's kind of the alleyway that goes next to Antonio's. Uh, you know, built in 1880. Uh, that's referring to the building where Antonio's is, is a single story, one room deep, Victorian vernacular commercial building. Um, so. Uh, the, uh, it seems the, uh, the, uh, it seems the Amherst central business district kind of incorporates a lot of the three story, you know, in some cases, four story brick buildings that line Amity street, main street, south pleasant, north pleasant street, but it stops short of, um, incorporating the buildings at 37 and 41 north pleasant street. So, um, that's all I have. I think, um, I'll just show briefly the historic aerial maps. These were the. Sandborn fire maps that. Are provided by the library of Congress. Um, and we're done for like five fire insurance rates. Uh, and so in red, you can see the evolution of the building. Uh, and this one, sorry, it's from 1887, uh, a bakery was built. And we believe that's the, uh, nights of Columbus building at 37 north pleasant street. And, uh, kind of just watch it closely in 1880s, 1896 and an exterior oven was attached to the building.  Um, that is in the same location as 41 north pleasant street where the typewriter store is. And then you can see in, you know, 1910. Kind of the, uh, a little small little business, uh, is added a wallpaper business. Um, where, you know, I'm not sure. Somehow that was incorporated. Into the, into the facade as well. So. Um, that's the information I have. Um, and. I think, um, Yeah, I dug through, yeah, special collections at Jones library, uh, historical tax records, the deeds, um, historic maps. And that's kind of what I came up with for historical narrative. And research. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Ben. Uh, now it is time for questions from commission members. I have one for, uh, I'm not sure who it's for, for Ben or for barrier Tom. Um, I think in the slide show. Ben it, uh, was identified as 39. North pleasant. But that's to the north of the typewriter store. Which is 40 now 41. Which is adjacent to 37. So I'm wondering what, yeah, just about them, the numbering. It. Barry, I don't know if you know the answer. To that. You pay the taxes. So, okay. Um, it might have something, things might have changed when Barcelona's was kind of added into. The Judy. Building. Uh, because obviously that address seems to exist. Um, but I agree. I mean, there is an odd gap between 37 and 41. Um, and then a second question is, um, Is that oven still around? I don't think so, but Barry, I'll, I'll defer to you. I, I, I'll defer to you. Okay. Um, in my travels there, I haven't. Ever seen. That oven. No, it was, it was on the northeast corner and I, I don't recall seeing that ever. I was just Googling the average typewriter while you were talking. I'm sorry. And, uh, it says 41. So. I've seen no, uh, evidence of the oven. Any of the time that I've been there. Any other questions, comments. Okay. And then, um, let's go to, uh, public comment. If there's anyone in the audience who wants to, wants to make a comment. Um, And I'm just going to sort of give a reminder that, um, the comments should focus on the historical value of the structure, which is the historical commission's exclusive purview under the current bylaw and not on perspective plans for, uh, development, which under the current bylaw are excluded from historical commission deliberations. Um, so if there is a comment, uh, please tell us your name and address. Um, and, uh, and then we will proceed. So I see, uh, make gauge. Hi, make gauge again. Here I am. Um, I'm not opposed to the demolition at all. I have a lot of confidence in Barry's, uh, judgment. And, uh, we were partners in saving the emmerced cinema. Um, and it's clearly a building that's pretty run down. This is related to historic, um, preservation, but it's one of the emmerced typewriters, one of the very few businesses in town owned by an African-American. And I regret that I hope we're going to find ways down the road that we're going to be able to do that. Um, and I think that we're going to be able to do that. Um, I don't know how or more people of color to own businesses in our downtown. But I have total confidence in Barry's decisions and, uh, his commitment to our community. Thank you. There are other, uh, Comments from members of the public. All right, then, um, I don't think there's anything else that you want to share with us. I don't think so. Just again, thanks to Ben for, I mean, he did an incredible amount of work. So. It was, it was excellent. Thanks a lot. Jonathan did a good job researching too. Yeah. Uh, then final comments or questions from members of the commission or town staff. I just would be interested in the expansion of the comments about the state of the building with the boat wall and the sagging roof. Um, And how that affects the structural integrity of the building. How does it affect it? It's, it's, uh, obviously a sign of foundation weakness over the years. Um, because it's allowed the wall to bowl. Uh, Bow out towards the south, which then would make the roof rafters come down so that I'd make them say, so the wall goes out, the rafters come down and that makes causes the sagging. It indicates a problem with the foundation as well. Yes. Thank you.  It's been cobbled up over the years, I would say. Thank you. All right, then. Um, so now we will close the public hearing. And proceed to, uh, reviewing the standards for designation as a significant structure. Um, I would say that the commission, I would say that the commission, I would say that the commission, 13.4 of the zoning bylaw. Um, and again, meeting only one of the criteria is sufficient for designation as a significant structure. But, uh, the commission continues its deliberation after that. So, um, I see Jan's hand. I move to close the public hearing. Is there a second. I second. Um, and let's see, uh, let's go to a vote for that on that motion. And it, uh, we'll begin with, uh, Pat. Agree. Uh, Robin. Right. Uh, Jan. Yes. Heady. Yes. And I too vote. Yes. So that's a unanimous public hearing is closed. And thank you, Ben, for putting up the, um, the standards for designation as a significant structure. Um, so we'll, uh, move through these again. Um, we've already heard that it, uh, the structure is not a part, uh, of a district or, uh, is not listed individually on the national register of historic places. Uh, uh, for historical importance. Um, does this structure have character, interest or value as part of the development, heritage, or cultural characteristics of the town of Amherst, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, or the nation. Um, and I will ask, uh, Heady. Yes. And then, um, Jan. Culture cultural characteristics. Perhaps. Um, come back to me. I need to think further. And I was taking notes. Okay. Um, Robin. I'm going to say no. Pat. I'm going to say no. I'm, I'm going to say no. And then I'm going to go back to Jan. I don't think so. I would have to say no. All right. Um, is this, is this the site? I'm an historic event. And I'll begin with Pat. No. Then Robin. No. Jan. No. Heady. No, not that we know of. And I agree. No. Um, is it identified with a person or group of persons who had some influence on society? Okay. Uh, Pat, I would say no, excepting the Knights of Columbus, but that wasn't associated with the building. Um, so I'm going to say no. Robin. Oh, no. Jan. Um, not that I know of. Heady. No. And I'll say no. Um, does it exemplify the cultural, political, economic, social, or historic heritage of the community? Um, Heady. Yes. And, um, Jan. Let it go cultural, economic, social. Um, exemplifies cultural economic. I mean, there were bars. That's pretty cultural and Amherst. Um, economic that size and shape of building along that street in the late 19th century. It's not really historic heritage because they aren't. Well, they are architecturally. Um, Did you complete your vote? I think there was a little interruption. Oh, sorry. I said, I guess I'd say yes. Sorry. I'm trying to do too much at once here. Sorry. Um, Robin. Um, I think that, that it's physical presence. Presents that in its current state. So I'm going to say no. Okay. Um, Pat. Um, for much the same reason as Robin. I don't think it has a strong influence historically. The property itself. Okay. Um, Robin about the emphasis on the word exemplifies because it just does not seem to do that right now. So, uh, we've ended it. We've ended at no on that criterion. Um, architectural importance. Does it portray the environment of a group of people in an era of history. Uh, characterized by a distinctive architectural style. Um, and Pat. I don't think it's a particular architecture. That's changed. Consistently over the years. Robin. Um, can I pass for the time being. Yes. Uh, Jen. Well, not really. No, I mean. No, I don't think so. Um, and I agree. I do not think it is a distinctive architectural style. Um, and let's see, Robin. Yeah, I will agree. No. Um, does it embody those distinguishing characteristics of an architectural type? Um, uh, I don't think so. Um, I don't think so. Um, I don't think so. Um, uh, Heady. Difficult. Um, no, really. Um, Jen. Well, if the distinctive architectural type is bland. I would say not really. Not. Not the way I've studied. Uh, Robin. No. And Pat. No. No. I agree. No. Um, is this the work of an architect, master builder, or craftsman whose individual work has influenced the development of the town. Uh, and Pat. No. Uh, Robin. No. Heady. No. Jan. I hope not. No. No. No, no, no. Um, let's see. Does it, uh, contain elements of architectural design, detail, materials or craft craftsmanship, which represents a significant innovation. Uh, Pat. No. No. No. Jen. No. Heady. No. I say no. Um, geographic importance. Uh, the structure meets the criteria of geographic. Geographic importance. If the site is part of or related to a square park or other distinctive area. Um, heady. How do you say, Oh, this is tricky. You know, I think the answer is no, but boy is that site close to probably the most important. Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, No. I think the next one is more appropriate than this one. So I'll say no on this. Okay. Robin. No. Pat. No. And I. Say no. As well. Um, The structure as it's as to it's. Um, The structure as it's as to its unique location or its physical characteristics represents an established and familiar visual feature of the neighborhood. Village center. Or the community as a whole. Um, Pat. This is a tough one. Um, I would say no. Only in that it's. The side has changed over the years. It's role in usage has changed over the years. It's unlike a building. Like compared to the North library. It's, you know, It's architecturally important, physically important to the village center. Um, This doesn't seem to have held that role. In its history. So I'm going to say no. Okay. Thank you. Um, Robin. Uh, I am also going to say no, that it's, um, I don't think its location is. Unique or its physical characteristics meet. Meet that standard. Um, Jen. Well, I think that those bland two story. Um, fill in structures along main streets in towns. Are pretty. Establish and familiar features. Of 20th century. Small town America and. Physically, I think it. Is familiar, even though it's been recited and that. The bar, the type writer shop. It's just a typical. Um, Building, but it's something that. Has been seen along that street for over a hundred years. So I have to say yes. Okay. Um, Heady. Um, I say yes as well. I think it is familiar even though it's been recited and that. Um, I say yes as well. I think if you look at the. Historical information that has been provided along with the, the, um, Sanborn maps. What we're actually looking at is an imprint of something incredibly typical and incredibly characteristic. Of many small college towns in the northeast of the country. And. While. The physical fabric of the building. Doesn't express all those at a uniform. Level of quality. Um, what we have here is something. Um, That is, uh, Very much the character of, of a small town like Amherst. Um, And all of the people who've lived and worked and. Adapted and changed and innovated in this, in this area have, have. Have stories that are valuable. Um, Have work that is valuable. Have. Entrepreneurship that is valuable. And I just, I just think that, um, I would have to vote yes. On this particular. Um, On this particular standard. Okay. This is a, this is a tough one. I, um, Uh, I'm going to vote no, because, um, I don't think it's. Specific. Location is unique in a way that gives it. Essential character.  Um, But it's an established and familiar visual feature of the neighborhood. I. I think it is a. Feature of the neighborhood, but I think it's undistinguished.  Um, And as I said, I'm going to vote on these various criteria. Um, We have not. Uh, it has not met any one of the criteria based on our votes. So. Um, So we apparently have found that the building is not a significant structure. Uh, For purposes of the bylaw and that, um, Um, Demolition permit can go forward and I don't believe we need a motion on that. Do we. I think we need a motion just to, uh, you know, close the liberation and, you know, Uh, You know, I'll make an opportunity for any additional comments. From the commission members or the applicant. So I make a motion that we close deliberation. Um, And I don't think that's necessary. Um, I don't think we did it in for, uh, The prior hearing. Um, But I don't. I don't object to hearing that motion. And is there a second. Second. Thank you. And let's see. Um, Any discussion. Then, um, Pat, would you vote, please? Um, I agree. Right. And Robin. Right. Jan. Um, yes. I just. At some point I would like to ask. Whether anyone from the public listening. Um, for instance, Scott Merzbach. Um, to. Only to delay demolition. We cannot stop it. And I just need people to know that. Um, and then I vote yes to close deliberation. Um, Heady. I vote to close. Deliberation. I vote to close. Deliberation. And, uh, I vote yes to close deliberation. All right. Um, So that is the outcome and Ben, would you like to say anything about process at this point? Yep. Um, so the. Similar to before.  The building commissioner finds that all, you know, health and building codes are met. Uh, then, uh, a historical commission will provide an opinion that, you know, we've reviewed the application and the. Application can, uh, move forward. Uh, with our approval. So I will transmit that information to Rob. I will send it to Rob Mora building commissioner. And we'll also, you know, CCU on any correspondence. Regarding this application.  You guys are experienced with development in Amherst. I'm sure there's, you know, utility sign-offs and. Other forms you have to fill out for demolition, but, um, as far as historical is concerned, this can move forward. Perfect. Thanks. Thank you very much. Thank you for bringing this to us. And good luck. Best wishes. Thank you. Thank you. Uh, All right. So we can move into the agenda for the public meeting. Um, I'm going to, uh, because we have. We, uh, we do have guests here for. Um, agenda item. Um, I'm just going to move that up and we can, um, manage announcements a little bit later. Yeah. I was going to say if, uh, if Robin needs to go. I was going to stay for the mill river. Okay. Got you. Um, All right. Um, let's see. Um, Yeah. So we've, um, we've discussed the district one neighborhood associations, um, proposed project for mill river, uh, in prior meetings. Um, and it's gone to, uh, the community preservation at committee. And, um, has. Um, Come back. Um, so. Radio off here. So, um, maybe first, I don't know, Robin, would you is. Would you like to, uh, Sort of give us a little, a little information about. What's happened with the CPA. Yeah. So at the last meeting, uh, of the CPA, see we were going over, um, trying to understand what's eligible under the CPA and in what categories. So that we on the historical commission and on the seatback can. Um, and, you know, the town primarily can have a clear sense of what's eligible and what's not. And in the, the, my process of looking at documents. Um, I was referencing a. Department of revenue guidance on the community preservation act. And what's eligible and what's not. The first question for the CPAC was whether the language that we have in there was inaccurate and suggested that certain plans and surveys were eligible when they weren't. And in the. Department of revenue guidance. Those items fall under administrative expenses. And they're pretty clear about, um, historic preservation projects being physical projects. But that surveys and plans can be paid for under administration. And I'm not saying that that's the case. But that's the consideration that they relate to a project that's before the committee. That's it was at least my read of it. But at the meeting, I said. That this is getting to the point where, you know, these are the documents that we have, and we really need the town. Staff to clarify for us. Um, you know, if this read is an accurate representation. I'm not looking at this. I don't know how it can unfold, but it seemed like an appropriate project. To have a survey performed under administration. If the town and the CPAC. So allowed in anticipation of. A specific preservation project around the remnants. Of the buildings. Um, in that area, but nothing archeological and nothing interpretive. Um, I don't know. Thank you. Thank you. Um, Ben, do you have. Comments that you'd like to add to that. Um, no, I think Robin. Covered it. I mean, I. I've honestly, I haven't had much correspondence with the CPA committee. Nor town. Any other town staff for a while now about this project. But I think. I'm a little bit confused about, I know the town council approved. Funding. Last week. Um, and so I'm not sure how this fits in with the. Current round of funding or whether we're thinking about next year. Okay. Um, Robin, do you have your hand up? I do. Um, I was in the middle of crafting an email to you, but I didn't finish it. I wanted to send you all the documents that I. Reference and meeting. So I can get that to you. I thought that the mill river project was not voted on. Therefore it did not go before town council. So. I think that in conversations that we've had in CPAC, it wasn't. And we have entertained town projects out of cycle. So. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. It seems like it would be possible that we, you know, there's no. There's not a. I mean, there's some, I would say there's not urgency. In the sense of the word. So as we unpack. How projects like this can be presented. To see back and be funded. Um, And we'll be back on that. Okay. Just a quick update. Next week. I mean, next month. Um, Meg, would you. Would you like to. Share other development. Recent developments from Dona and its application. Or strategy or. Whoops. I think you're still muted. Thank you. and Jane for trying to figure out and Ben how to make this work. There's not much we're very eager to do this project and we've reduced it now to just the really the survey of the sites as described. I wrote a new one page summary proposal that we can send everybody but we're just waiting to hear what's possible and extremely appreciative of particularly Robin and Jane's efforts to try to figure out how to make this work. You know whatever if you know it's not we're all dealing with a lot of complicated things and the world is facing all sorts of problems. This isn't the most important thing in the world. It would be really great if we can make it work for North Amherst and we're patient. We're real patient about it and I guess so I don't speak too many times. I'm interested if we're thinking about funding whether it's for this summer starting July 1st or the next summer because in order to identify consultants who can do the research their schedules vary but I'm just really grateful that people are interested in the project. It's a pretty cool project in terms of uncovering North Amherst history. In 1775 at the time of the revolution there were already six mills along the Mill River in North Amherst. It's amazing. Yeah it really was an industrial focus. Yeah saw mills and paper mills. It's pretty cool. Robin I see your hand. I heard my mute. Yeah I just wanted to say that I think both the Historic Commission and the CPAC are interested in figuring out if and how this can move forward and it's given us an opportunity to really get more clarity on what we can and can't allow which is come up a few times now. So it's actually it's actually a good development to have more information. If I could just add one thing it's you know it's one of the few I'm on the Participatory Budgeting Commission we're trying to figure out how regular old residents can propose things to the town and this is one of the very few tools that there that exist for people in town to propose things for funding that they think would be important to have. So I have like a double interest in this. I had one last thought which I don't think I had expressed earlier just whether I guess this is for Ben or Jane whether or not what could be included would be a National Register nomination for this space if that was appropriate. That's interesting. So there's a National Historic Register status for I'm pointing that way down towards we know where the Black Wall not in in the library in the church are. I don't know it'd be interesting to explore that. Yeah I think it would be an easy thing to explore through through the National Park Service. I think landmark lifting is handled somewhere else but it would be a district so that'd be easy easy enough to explore. There's one other thing I was thinking about. Oh it was sort of a question for you Robin about so there is time now for the for CPAC to try to work through this with the Historical Commission. Does this need to I mean is this a is this something that the town council the attorney should look at? Do you think? I think that before we would go to the town council I think what the CPAC wants is these particular documents I think we have three or four of them that you know lay out they have their things about maintenance there are things about you know all the other categories of CPAC money as well and then specific things about sort of preservation and then understanding this administration clause but yeah I suppose if the town felt like you know they took this guidance from the DOR they felt like it was appropriate to take that to town council to we just want clarity that's what we want clarity of how something like this unfolds. It seems like it fits and it seems like we've never really done it this way before and I don't think anyone was but no one on the committee was familiar with this document which actually came up last cycle with the Jones Library so there was some language in there that was questioning whether the Jones Library was allowable and you know we're all sort of grappling with this little piece of information that little piece of information there and so I'm trying to get all these documents together so that the CPAC members can all have them and the town can refer to them and we can all be on the same page. Did that answer your question Jane? I feel like I went on a little longer. I feel like there's this like question that has to be answered before we get to the next question yeah and I can get that those materials to Ben and to Anthony as well so that when the next round of meetings comes around we can all be talking about it together and Ben I assume maybe I should send that to Nate as well. Yeah you can include him. Great thank you so much Robin. Oh you're welcome. Thank you for working on this. Now I remember what it was I was trying to think of and it does have to do as National Register District nomination that it's a eligible sites in one reading of one document the resource needs to be named significant either by the local historical commission or by its designation as a district or a contributing property to a district so we'd have to do one of those two things no matter what I think. I was thinking that the National Register nomination might be part of the result of the you know the survey proposal like one of the deliverables there yeah that's yeah that's a good point. Jan? Sorry I missed part of what you said it must be named by us as significant or what's the second one? A significant or as a part of a national registered district or listed on the National Register either individually or as a contributing property. Okay so those are two separate things so it's either significant or on the National Register. Yeah if it's on the National Register it's automatically eligible if it's not on the National Register the local historical commission needs to assert that it is significant to the town's history and heritage. So we don't do the second part we only do the first part so I'm just having trouble understanding this we would either name it significant or it needs to be part already as a national district. Right. Okay thank you. Other thoughts or comments from commission members or Ben or a Meg? Oops thank you again everybody. Thank you Meg. Okay thank you Meg. Going above and beyond and really appreciate it. We'll keep plugging away at it and well and however it turns out thank you anyway whatever it'll be good. Okay thank you. So let's see. I am going to take the opportunity to part the meeting so have a good night everyone. Okay thank you. Good night Robin feel better feel better. Yeah bye bye. Let's see so we can Robin of particular interest to her was the agenda item about discussion of the day in the state so we will move that to next month's agenda or next meeting agenda. Is there information about the Civil War tablets? Yes finally so I am happy to announce finally that the after 25 years in storage in a DPW garage in North Amherst the Civil War tablets 181893 Civil War tablets marble Civil War tablets have been moved by the town to the bank center where they're being stored kind of for a short to medium term. The tablets were moved with great care by a we ended up contracting with granite creations they're a counter literally a counter top company and we chose them because of their experience with moving heavy slabs of stone and they did a fantastic job of use specialized dollies and handling equipment. They estimated the tablets were around each like 600 to 800 pounds so they're not small by any means again one of their the biggest ones are almost seven feet long by five feet high the big structures I think due to COVID oh there's a few things due to COVID the vaccine clinics are happening in the bank center so that creates a you know a lot of activity in that building to begin with and then two we're just for now limiting access to the whole room it's called which is where the tablets are being held just out of you know concerned for social distancing and you know don't want too many people gathering in interior spaces but yeah we also had Irving Slavid who maybe some of you remember from 2010 he did the original restoration on the tablets he came and you know he was very satisfied with the condition of the tablets which was great you know I think we all in the back of our minds were like thinking you know how they were been in store no one has seen them for 10 years since he did his restoration and we really didn't know what the condition would be so we were pleased you know there was there was a few marks and stuff here and there just from the foam pressing up against the the tablets and the crates but he was able to perform whatever restore the tablets and use specialized treatment to get those marks up and he's going to provide a report or an assessment in the form of a report to us kind of just outlying those results the next thing we're working on with the tablets there's two things they are going to be incorporated into the upcoming Juneteenth celebration you know these tablets have special significance to the African-American community in Amherst because they list I think seven members of the 54th Massachusetts regimen which was the first African-American regimen in the Civil War so very special significance and so um this group where we're hoping to maybe have you know by June many more people will be vaccinated COVID hopefully will be the light will be at the end of the tunnel we're hoping for the Juneteenth celebration to be able to cycle people in and out of the whole room and make it kind of more of an exhibit space and you know I think there's certainly a role for the historical commission to play you know we kind of want to make it somewhat of an exhibit with interpretive material um and so there's that process that's kind of the short-term goal and then the long-term goal is to develop work on an art essentially we need we need someone you know an architectural expert a interpretive expert so you know we're still kind of defining what we need but we need someone who can help us guide us in this decision about how and where these tablets can be displayed long-term you know for hopefully the next hundred years and so we you know obviously their museum quality you know priceless artifacts we want to find a place for them where they can be you know open to the public have interpretive material um but also you know not be you know vandalized and be climate controlled and be safe essentially so we you know this is again this is like maybe the third iteration of this project you know over the past 25 years to try to get to a final answer but we're hoping you know there's momentum being built around it and we think if we can find some sort of expert to help guide this decision it'll provide some certainty about where they can be stored or where they can be displayed how much it's going to cost and other considerations so that was a lot and I'm happy to kind of like I took some pictures of the tablets and I'm happy to share those with the commission over email and yeah I just wanted to share the exciting news it happened really really suddenly all of a sudden the company was ready to act and we were you know it happened last week and all of a sudden here they all happened in one Tuesday morning so great um Jan would you like to comment and then Heddy I just had a question the name Irving is it Slaven S-L-A-V-I-N how is it spelled with a D at the end slavid yeah slavid okay thank you oh and as an art historian who's worked on all sorts of things including a lot of study of the Parthenon freeze slabs happy to be part of advice yeah absolutely hey Heddy I think I think what's really great about what's happened um and thank you Ben so much for shepherding this along um for the public good um is to see how large these things are and how impressive they are um I just looked at the little bit of film that Amal Ka had had upon social media um as I wasn't at the event and and it was just really fantastic to see people you know gathering around them you know wanting to touch them I'm not sure that they should have been ever but but anyway um to be that close to to to some artifacts that are pretty important for around here is is a great moment and the fact that they're going to be on display for Juneteenth is also really great yes so I had my thanks Ben for all your work to make this happen it's important to the town that we are able to display these tablets yeah I feel like you know for better or for worse because our tablets have never had a proper storage or proper display location and have been in storage for so long they're actually I think they're some of the most intact Civil War tablets of Massachusetts communities I think most communities were given Civil War tablets in the late 1800s and many of them just put them on the side of their town hall put them in you know in a memorial somewhere and they've just succumbed to the climate and weathered significantly over time and I just you know it's probably it's a disservice that we've never had a great option for displaying them but because of that ours are in great condition and we can hopefully find a permanent location so that's really exciting this this advance right now is just wonderful so thanks for all your work on that yeah I have a question and a and a just a thought from from my work at the Dickinson Museum I'm wondering if some kind of preservation architect and maybe landscape preservation architect or preservation landscape architect might be it might be somehow involved as as part of the expert team a lot possibly along with an engineer who could think about the environment yeah yeah there's yeah there's there's more so many elements to it that need to be discussed there's the end you know we had a structural engineer look at town hall I think you know before my time in the early 2000s and they determined that the walls in town hall actually couldn't bear the weight of the tablets so you know that's something a structural engineer needs to think is is best to figure out but then a structural engineer is not going to know about how marble over time that's more of like a don't miss or something and then an architect might yeah so yeah it might be a team or maybe it's like a you know a a primary consultant who then you know works with sub consultants or something but I think it's more than we can figure out I think but yeah um but I will say Jane I mean it's it's littered I don't know which Dickinson's are which but there's a lot of feet on the on the tablets um and you know looking through the names there's you know boltwoods and you know cowls and you know uh what are the others lots of I'm blanking now but lots of recognizable Amherst this is this is sort of incidental but I there's a lovely cemetery up near Wildwood school the Amherst cemetery which is sort of non-denominational and has a small chapel in a brick federal style house um on off of strong street and it's full the graveyard is full of the same kind of names you know that are on the the memorial tablets um and I'm really conscious of those tablets being names you know it's really it really makes me think about Myelin and the Vietnam memorial and um which is sort of very different from the Parthenon freeze which I also love like Jan but I think being able to somehow allow the public to be at the right level to look at these objects is it is something that needs to be handled carefully um so that they are accessible somehow to to people in the way that the Vietnam vet memorial is to the nation to the world um because I think I think this has a really great potential for for the town in terms of of um you know making visible um something that has been hidden uh physically hidden for the last 25 years but also hidden from history um as well um Jan yeah mentioning the Vietnam memorial by Myelin made me think about how when people go to that they're able to find the name of their family member by looking in a book and because it has so many names on it but I was wondering if there'd be something similar in whatever presentation form we come up with where perhaps there would be a book people could consult that would explain that name in terms of their family connections to the town it might be a nice way to allow people who think they might be related in some way to check that who um it might tie into certain houses in town that belong to these people that now people own or you know it would just be more interactive and maybe more relevant for a larger part of the town if we could put something like that together I don't know how we'd ever find the time and whatever but it would be a nice project sort of like the Writers Walk project you know that the Historical Commission could offer the town um to go with this that's a neat idea yeah I like that too Ben did you want to show us pictures or um yeah give me one second and while I do that I also say the uh there's a book the history of the town of Amherst by Charles Morehouse and Edward Carpenter and they have a whole section on all the different regiments that served Amherst and also a you know brief one or two sentence biography of each name listed on the Civil War tablets which is oh cool uh great and I think we could also one thing we could also do is match up the names in the West Cemetery potentially and Wildwood Cemetery with the names on the Civil War tablets so yeah here's here they are being moved on these dollies to the rear of the bank center put put in place and then here are I think a zoomed in picture of each of the tablets these are the tablet number two the those who perished in the war um yeah here's you know a few different Dickinson's uh Stearns Stearns I think is an important name Skinner uh Kellogg certainly Edward Dickinson is that Emily's uh no some kind of collateral relative there were by 18 I think it was by 1886 that Dickinson's in this area had a family reunion at which more than 2000 people were present but here's the dedication plaque and then yeah here's how the room is set up we had Amherst Welding local company fabricate these a-frames and I you know I find them a kind of architectural in a way they're very sleek in their design and are incredibly durable um and they also match the trim on the windows in the pole rooms that's kind of it looks looks nice as well yeah as you see back here that's terrific yeah yeah that's really nice yeah and again they're in great great shape maybe a little uh uh what did Irving said you know the the wear and tear you'd expect to see on oh you know tablets that are 140 30 years old yeah here's a small event we had yeah so happy glad to be able to finally report good news about the Civil War tablets and I will you know this I don't think this is the last still here that where there's that working group of uh Anika Lopez and her mother Deborah Bridges and Dr Shabazz Demetria Shabazz that are kind of more focused on the Juneteenth celebration but that you know involves the historical and interpretive material as well so I think you know there's a role for the Historical Commission to play um however much or little you'd like to be involved so we'll maybe can bring this up for the next meeting as a discussion point so thank you Ben thank you um you have thoughts about um the role of the Historical Commission um I think I mean I think there's there's kind of this I think the working we're calling them the Civil War tablets working group that there's room for you know whether you know they come to historical group commission meetings or members go to some of their informal meetings I think there's room for involvement in both ways um and I think especially developing the room as the as kind of an exhibit space um which involves there being interpretive material uh you know ultimately it's town staff that does the work which means well that's not totally true but I think it a lot will fall to me and maybe Nate and uh Jeremiah the plant who's the facilities manager so I think getting guidance from an input and uh from multiple sources would be great and you know maybe there's small projects to do along the way like hey could would someone be interested in you know putting together a you know a brief bio of you know this name or that name maybe we could kind of divvy up some work that way so I'm not totally sure what it's all gonna look like that's kind of just my initial thoughts Ben um how long will it be possible to keep the exhibit at the bank center so yeah that's a good question that that came up yesterday the uh you know the town manager Paul Buckleman Dave Zomac were you know uh there on Tuesday um and kind of talked about that question there's kind of the short term medium term and then you know eventually long term home for the tablets short term you know they're fine being in the in the pool room it's you know under lock and key because of COVID the the building's not really open to the public except for vaccinations um in the medium term as things do start opening up uh you know maybe in the fall I think you know the tablets they're not easy to move and we don't want to have to move them again and I think uh they are fine you know they're an important priority and they're they're good they're still room to have you know the pool room is often used by the senior center for like the various events and classes and activities um there's still room for small gatherings to happen in the pool room and we could like partition off that space um so you know and I think there will always be like the staff person in there and and the room can be locked when there's no one in there so I think they're safe to stay in there um and you know hopefully for the hopefully for the foreseeable future but not too long so we want to find a permanent home for them but I just was envisioning your your commenting on the history of Amherst book that lists the regiments and some of the people noted on the tablets that if if they're going to be there for a while to maybe have a legend for each tablet with the short biographical note the name and whatever else we can have because that would be a start if there's a more permanent place to develop a legend in maybe a different format but to have a start at that kind of like the writer's walk getting getting all the information and having it but it could it could happen in you know a legend on the wall for each plaque um as a start to historical context just about yeah absolutely um hmm well again very exciting and uh yeah maybe we should put this on the agenda for the next meeting to talk a little in more detail or more specifically about what the historical how the historical commission could be involved I like the legend idea and you know that Carpenter and Morehouse is out of out of copyright we could kind of PDF the the one or two senate's bios yeah absolutely could you do that Ben and send them to us just so we can get an idea of how extensive it is and before our next meeting and it'll give us some some meet to begin that conversation yeah yeah I think thank you you can even get it on um through hathy trust or yeah I found it here just it's called archive.org I just google I just or no I got a link from somewhere but yeah I will certainly send this material thank you thank you thank you Ben um so let's see preservation bylaw is next do we um so I was hoping that I could have gotten feedback from Nate Rob and Chris by now it's you know certainly been a while I think as some of you may know the planning department has been tasked with a whole lot of zoning proposals by the town council and so you know I was asked to help out with a separate zoning bylaw focused on you know accessory apartments and so that kind of took up my time Nate had Nate was also helping with demo delayed bylaw he was asked to you know basically rewrite the bylaw or you know focus exclusively on you know affordable housing mixed use buildings you know businesses downtown and zoning there so we've been stretched a little thin and suffice it to say the demolition delay bylaw has I've worked on it a little bit earlier this month I kind of took a stab at um I didn't change any kind of substance all I did was kind of rework the bylaw so it has this new kind of element to it of uh like a certificate that's granted by the commission um and then that's that's the kind of what an applicant needs to get a demolition permit or they're you know given what I called like a preservation order I think I called it so that's that would be like a order grant given by the historical commission to that a to the building commissioner that a demolition permit cannot be granted for 12 months um so I I like kind of reworked the bylaw in that way and then I sent it to like Nate Rob and Chris for feedback and that's kind of the step where we're at now haven't really heard back yet um so you know I'm really hoping to push it along uh sooner rather than later um I think the you know this is when all the committees get busier with more applications whether it's the planning board or historical commission we're all gonna uh be busier now so um hopefully in the next you know month or so we can get the ultimately I mean you the historical commission needs to feel comfortable with the final draft town staff need to feel comfortable with the final draft and then again it's the process of presenting it to town council then they refer to the planning board and then it moves through this whole cycle of review and approvals and um I just hope we can get to that point soon but I know it's it's something that we should kind of like move off of our plate so yeah thanks for working on that and um it is uh so with all of the bylaw rewriting does the town council just take up what's ready when it's ready or are they looking at bylaw rewrites in batches or how's that working um I my understanding is that they they kind of have a their subcommittee which is the CRC the community resources committee has a priority of zoning zoning priorities and you know demolition delay bylaws on there but it's just like the fourth thing down and so we were working on the first three items and so um we haven't yeah I guess we yeah what did we do we formally presented our proposals for the three things and I I believe that uh that then initiates this process of review and approval and um and you know deliberation and all of that so I think that's kind of their first batch and you know they are well you know I think we're free to as long as we give them like some notice we can put in our historical commission uh proposal um and then and that'll begin that process so what I'm not what I'm not sure about is the uh is whether state law or the town charter has a limit has a start is there a time a specific timeline for when they have to make a poll the hearing on a bylaw that's what I'm not sure about I know when it's a group of citizens that put in a petition for a bylaw there's a very specific clock that happens but I'm just not sure what happens when a town committee puts in a bylaw but I can look into that more thank you um Pat is your hand freshly up no I just was stifling a yawn excuse me it's been a long day okay we're closing in um do we don't do we have minutes to approve we don't have minutes to approve I um I I wasn't sure what Nate or other staff people have done in the past whether um you know I know Jane Scheffler has been taking notes you know in the past few months or weeks she's like emailed some drafts around uh I know Jan provided some feedback so I I don't know do we like I know other committees like formerly adopt minutes but um you know I think it's important to keep uh you know keep uh minutes I post them on the website every so often um so that people can review past meetings so I think um I'd like to do that soon but I just want to make sure everyone is as if they want to has reviewed them and if we need to formally adopt them then we do that but if not I'll just post them so yeah I think they should be sent out with the agenda oh I see two uh let's see Jan and Pat Jan would yeah I just have responded every time she sent one out with um then she always says she's going to incorporate those and um have them ready but they haven't come back so I think we need to remind her that we need the corrected versions on the agenda so that we can then review them in preparation for a vote because I think that's the part we're missing um in order to have them official and then you can post them I think they need to be approved it seems to me they were earlier on in my time we always use to use the formal process and it's just kind of fallen apart we're like six months behind and she's been sending them in fours and two years and ones but then we don't see them again and I don't think she realizes that she has to take the next step with them I think uh yeah and maybe maybe I'm kind of missing a step here but I think to formally approve them they should should be listed by date on the agenda and in the minutes the final version sent out with the agenda yeah that makes sense so uh maybe we can say next meeting I'll get in touch with Jane Scheffler I will collect all the minutes that she has um and then next meeting plan I'll send them out for everyone to review and then next meeting I'll list them out in the agenda and then we'll okay thank you that'd be great um uh for information uh of commission members um Jane has found that um taking care of six-month-old twin boys is going to inhibit her ability to continue on the commission um so I'm sorry I'm sorry that she's yeah she's uh loved it and hopes to return but for right now she she just can't so should we be looking for a replacement yeah I um I had a email correspondence with uh the town manager's office um because I know you know obviously we we were at six members and then you know they the town manager's office was like you know we're so busy with running this vaccine clinic blah blah blah like it's not doesn't seem like there's major urgency to fill like the one vacancy but I think now that we're at five uh you know if we will start running into quorum issues and obviously you know we just want to be fully have the full suite of members that the commission's supposed to have so the local historic district also a short one member so I've asked uh the town manager's office to kind of formally advertise and solicit uh applications for volunteer members of for the historical commission and one for the local historic district so hopefully I don't hopefully that process can uh take place soon um but yeah I I'm sorry Ben I just the number that's on the Amherst historical commission can be seven is that correct so we really need we really could use two new volunteers yeah yeah exactly um so I think the the town that typically what they do is you know you know using the website using social media using various you know an email list they'll you know send out the announcement for vacancies and then give a period of time for people to submit applications and then there's you know interview process and um but I think we had a conversation maybe a few months ago about maybe leaning towards someone with a little bit of architectural expertise I seem to remember kind of just to help guide some of the demolition discussions um so uh yeah I think is that is that still something that makes sense I've asked a few colleagues about people in architecture at UMass and I got no response um yeah I mean they would suggest things so but I think we need to keep up on that yeah is is there anyone maybe in your uh I hope everyone's enjoying the Deerfield course uh on architecture but maybe if there's anyone in that class or affiliate we don't see it but we just see the guy teaching it oh that's right yeah virtual but that's a great course it's intense but really good good um all right let's see um are there announcements do we want to say anything about Ryder's Walk or wait I guess um yeah so I think uh yeah you can say a few words if you'd like Jan um well just that uh the signs have been fabricated and DPW is soon going to be putting them in the ground and then artifacts puts the skins on them after they're in the ground apparently and then meanwhile I've been working on the website which you know was originally done um as the results of a course at UMass back at least 15 years ago approximately and um the professor John Olson had reworked it for this historic site that he maintains along with a civil war tour um and I had worked from that for many of the sign texts um and I have since gone in and amended corrected all the entries added some images um he's helped me move some map dots and I reorganized the entries to fit the tour as we have it now and the directions to each house from the previous one and we're just about ready um Janie is going to get me text for the Emily Dickinson house because that's added they didn't have that in the student projects and um what else I just need a better photo of the Lord that Bolt went in and then when we upload the photos and texts for the Dickinson house he has a new photo from me um for Norton Juster's house which I got from Steve Bloom who lives there now and um and then a new photo at the end will be ready to roll very exciting Janie for all your work on it thank you yeah it's been it's been interesting I've learned a lot about the town and also um how much you can be misled by um texts that's already there if you don't research every single word um but I think we're good and Jane and Ben if we could have five minutes at the end of the meeting to just finalize a couple questions oh yeah awesome okay yeah okay um any other announcements uh then um this can be a public comment period um if there is um any member of the public who wishes to address the commission then um unanticipated items uh I have one one thing I'd like to uh raise and if we can maybe have a little time at our next meeting um you may have heard that the Emily Dickinson Museum is doing a pretty substantial restoration at the at the homestead um and the um I'm not sure that there is going to be a formal demolition permit uh that might depend on how the building commissioner interprets the request the the um we do need to take our project to the local historic district commission um I'm not sure if a demolition permit is going to be triggered because basically what we're doing uh on the visible facade of the building is to restore the 19th century front door that we have recovered from the garage behind the homestead so that's kind of fun um but whether or not we do have a you know come to the commission with a demolition permit application I'd like to share the project with you and have a little sort of power point thing I can walk through in maybe 10 or 15 minutes that's great Jane yes that would be wonderful great wonderful um and um so we can maybe put that on the next agenda because I I'd like you all to see what's going on before we start demolition so um so there's that I don't know are there any other unanticipated items then let's uh that or just remember what our next meeting date is and I apologize for having to change this meeting date but I'm glad I have April 21st April 21st and then May 19th the next I have I have those on my calendar as well Ben me too we're trying to do the third Wednesday of every month okay looks good here okay got it yeah thank you well let's see um do I is there a motion for us to adjourn I I can make that motion for us please please adjourn thank you and I'll second it thank you uh all in favor hi hi thanks everybody hi hi good night everybody Ben and Jane don't forget to stay okay hey uh that's six pages single spaced I don't know those are some minutes well I was trying to be detailed because of the touchy nature of the meeting I just thought it'd be best if I record pretty much everything so nobody can you know say well that's not what was it um so I was just wondering about my recent emails um is it do you agree Jane that we should just take the Dell off of both signs and not try to assign it yeah um you know after all this back and forth about it I might be slightly inclined to think of the five colleges house as as the Dell me too but just in case somebody comes along at some point and says absolutely not it was the name of that or both houses or the house it was moved I thought it'd be easier just to put it I think that's fine and it also saves us fixing one sign you know we only have to take it off one we don't have to put it on the other so yeah I think it's you know it's just an invitation for someone to do their own research right exactly um it will be mentioned in the website yeah which can be fixed anytime if new information comes along it's just a sign that I thought would be better to have a little more anonymous I think that makes sense yeah and then the Charles Eastman house um and Elaine Goodale what do you think about that I would love it if we could put Elaine Goodale on there great we have her picture luckily because I had already that on the sign so all we need to do is add to the name and do you think it should be Charles and Elaine Eastman or Charles Eastman and Elaine Goodale house you know in like in our our museum convention right now is to it would be to say Charles Eastman and Elaine Goodale Eastman right which is what I have in the website but it gets too long yeah um that was a sign so I just thought you know it's either both names or just put her first name in but then I hate it because she published under Goodale and she and they divorced you know or they didn't divorce they separated and they used separate names then I think Elaine Goodale okay so um Ben I should should I talk to Seth do you want to talk to Seth it's just two signs then that need changing on those um yeah you you understand the changes better than I do so if you want to just talk to Seth and you know if I need I'll just say you know I we're the ones paying him technically so I can say I approve you doing this work okay he can talk with you if he doesn't want me gonna tear his hair out say you again oh my god I know uh this happened all the time those yeah yeah and um yeah I think it's totally fine I mean they they uh my understanding is the uh like the sign this boards are already in like attached to the pole right now but the the actual content of this sign is just like a vinyl skin that I think just like clasters over and so they can send out a technician and just install a new like skin I guess to go over they've had to update them or change them for some reason would they just apply over that one or would they have to take the first one off you know I guess I'm not totally sure but it seems easy and easy enough for that's what I mean it sounds like it's parking decal on your bumper that you mentioned gets so thick you know they stick out yeah yeah and so I've um I told them that you know it's hard for me sometimes to communicate with DPW like I don't I don't know where in the DPW building the signs are right now so if I sent if I told them to come out now and do the replacement I would need to tell someone from DBW to unlock the door and coordinate that so I think it's easier just to like wait till these things are in the ground and then you know we can tell the technician exactly where the sign is right and maybe we like coordinate it so it's like the day after it's installed we can quickly get the new updated material on there and then you know I think there won't be any material on there right right now there's nothing on them so it won't be updated it'll just be the skin that goes on it'll be the first one it'll be the correct one right they don't have anything on them right now my understanding is that there is the first the first print that we sent them is in the sign right now oh it is on I thought the skin didn't go on until they were up it's okay it was okay I think I mean I I guess the next conversation I want to have with you guys or maybe the whole historical commission is one do we need to contact the home the property owners again to let them know that you know DPW is going to put a sign in their yard and two you know just like kind of building you know doing maybe press release or you know building some you know having getting the town involved in my social media or something so yes and yes I think we should I have the names and addresses from the original letters I think we should send something out say okay this project is finally coming to a conclusion you know these signs are going to be mounted and does DP now you know exactly how far from the street and where to put them at each address um I thought it's on drawing but yeah I would have to confirm with Nate because I've sometimes there's a sidewalk sometimes there's not you know no zone up in the north end it's there's really it's it's it's just a road that you know market hill there's nothing there I mean it's so different say um look at district where are there yeah you know a boulevard of grass and stuff like that so they know how to handle that right yeah yeah exactly and they you know they know where the town right of way begins and then so okay great okay so you definitely do a press release but maybe once we have a date for our little launch um I did tell John Olson that um we were going to do something outdoors once they were in um and that he if any of the students who wrote the entries were around in the area he should invite them uh Steve Bloom is also interested anybody who owns a house of one of the writers we need to be invited I think we should send out very specific invitations in fact in that letter where we say that they're gonna come why don't we also say watch the paper for the public launch and please you're invited to attend then we don't have to send them something separate yeah okay yeah and I or I can say like you know send me an email so I have all right so do you have you have that mailing list or I can go back and look for it um I had used a mail program that automatically filled in addresses so if I saved the file with the addresses um I should still have them and I'm you know I don't know people may have moved this was what four or five years ago yeah yeah so is there a way to check that if I give them to you can you check that the homeowner is the same name is yeah I can check the most recent owner up to like 2019 that's in the assessor's card so okay um but yeah sounds like a good next step of course I need to get dpw to like actually come in a bit to a date to install them and they have their hands full right now so we'll see I need to send Guilford a bribe or something but could we put around the time students are moving out so parents are here or is there a is there an event coming up where parents show up I mean I know people aren't supposed to be in much contact but it's getting better yeah um I uh I'm not sure what's going on at UMS for commencement but Amherst is planning on a kind of seniors only in-person commencement um it'd be a good day if it if there aren't so many events that this would just be lost program you know maybe it what would that be a sunday is that when they usually do them I think so yeah maybe we could do it on the saturday have a weekend okay well let's think about that yeah great thanks Ben this is still recording so oh shoot right artificial so