And we are live! Welcome to the free art show season 2, episode 6, where I, Kim Dias Holm, also called an Ungerhard Holm, draw your requests and put them up for free use. So how it works is that you request me to draw something, I try my best to draw it, and then I put it in my gallery for free use under a Creative Commons license. So you can download it, you can copy it, you can change it, you can do what thou wilt with it. You can even tattoo it or sell it as long as you put my name on it. Hi to everyone in both the YouTube chat and the TikTok chat. So, let's start. I think we will start by doing an Ink Monster, and I have an idea. Maybe draw the Chimera. Hmm, hello creature piraturi, good to see you. Good evening on both TikTok and YouTube. We've had a liking contest between TikTok and YouTube. So far I think YouTube has three likes, and TikTok has 700 likes. So you need to press the like button a little bit more, YouTube. Can you draw Dragon Ball Zed characters? No, I cannot. But I will draw something else. So why can't I draw a Dragon Ball Zed character? Well, because they are copyrighted and I put all my art for free use. If I were to draw Goku, do you think the owners of Dragon Ball would be pleased if I put Goku up for free use and say, hey, everyone can make money on this character? Would that work? Now, fan art is, in fact, mostly illegal, but people generally do not care. And as long as the owners don't care or find it too much of a hassle to stop fan art, people get away with doing fan art. It's mostly illegal, but doing fan art and then putting it up for free use, that would be frowned upon. One could say frowned upon. So the first request of the day is just a random comment I got on. I don't remember if I got it on the YouTube or on the TikTok. I got it one of those places earlier today and it was for a cactus. And I thought, yeah, maybe a cactus monster. Dragon cactus. Dractus. We can try to make it a Dractus. Can we make it a Dractus? Hmm. How would we make this a dragon? That is the interesting proposition. How could we make it? A dragon. I don't think I, I think that if I had seen your comment just mere seconds before, I think I could have done it. But as it stands now, I don't think I can do a Dractus. So remind me of that later. Why did I start painting my nails? Why not?  Isn't that a little bit strange? I started painting my nails to, you know, I started doing it in the 90s first to signify, you know, most of all, that I'm not straight. Because I find the idea of being straight not only boring but slightly disgusting. But I am in a straight relationship, being married and all, but I still don't want to be associated with being straight. So that's a good sign. Easy to culturally decode. Had a top wings come from the two open arms. Yeah, I did see some possibilities for that, but I didn't see the possibility for that actually turning out as cool as I would have wanted. So I will draw the Dractus another day. This will simply be a completely normal cactus monster. And then after that we can take some requests from the audience or I have also some thoughts about things I might draw from requests I've gotten on the TikTok and the YouTube. Normal cactus monster. Yes, a completely normal cactus monster. Nothing weird about this cactus monster. It has five likes on YouTube. Hello, how are you? Thank you. I just managed to come home from a short run, six kilometers slow running. So I just managed to come home and hit the shower and straight down to draw a cactus. A completely normal cactus monster. The straightest cactus monster you've ever seen. We've gotten a comment saying that it's one of the things from Mumetrola but it's not a hattifnott or a numelit. Because that would be copyright violation. Hi, I don't know if you remembered, but I'll ask you if it's okay to have the hattifnott and skull art or tattooed. Yes, all my art is available for free use and I'm honored whenever anyone wants one of my pieces on their skin. I think that is completely amazing and I enjoy it so much and I would be honored if anyone got the heart and skull drawing tattooed on them. I'm in fact thinking of getting it myself because I have an idea for how it could look. Could you make me one of Blackpink? What is Blackpink? Isn't that some music stuff? Can you do a biomechanical monster on your TikTok next time? I can probably do biomechanical monster at some point but I ain't no geiger to say it's like that. The biomechanical isn't something I'm strong at so that is a reason in itself to do more biomechanical stuff so maybe I should do some biomechanical maybe I should find my inner gigit and yes Blackpink is some music stuff so that means I can't do that because again that would be copyright violation and if you get the hattifnott tattoo or any other tattoo of my art please remember to send me pictures or videos or tag me if you post it online I'm so happy when people tattoo my work it is kind of amazing to think about the fact that there are many dozens of people with my art on their body for life thank you for reading my message you're amazing thank you so much thank you for commenting and everyone on both TikTok and YouTube do comment and I'll try to read all the comments but I have to watch the page as well so you can't get to every one of them and this drawing I'm drawing now I forgot to do the timelapse to press the timelapse camera because I have three cameras running but I forgot the timelapse camera so this one is just for you guys and not for anyone else so it's exclusive no one else will see it except when I post it for free use then everyone will see it so I'll forget everything I said but the point is this one will not be made into a TikTok or YouTube shorts video the drawing process will remain just for you guys watching either on TikTok Live or the archive version on YouTube and if you want the best view of what I'm drawing then go to my YouTube because since the YouTube gets archived the YouTube also gets the best camera okay? screen recording sender I am recording this for YouTube but the quality of such a timelapse wouldn't be quite up to the standards I want in a video and it's okay I mean it's just a silly little nice little cactus man and no matter if it's something done for the archived version on YouTube or if it's done for a video or if it's done for whatever it's done for the point is to work on it until it's done it needs to get that level of finish and get done done deal and right now I'm just seeing that the outline was a little bit weak that's okay I have the talent of drawing but I lack the training so what do you recommend for me to become professional? you said it you said it in your own words training I recommend training comment on YouTube was let me see the YouTube comments disappear of everything aside from your massive talent your work ethic always inspires me you just do the work son and it's impressive so pro thank you and that's sort of that ties into the other comment on Tiktok if you want to get professional you have to learn to do the work and while you are learning to draw you never stop learning but while you are primarily learning doing the work means doing the practice it means taking the practice seriously it means finding exercises doing courses finding tutorials drawing from life drawing figure drawing buying books reading books following step by step drawing drawing drawing doing the work to get better putting in the hours you will never get better if you don't put in the hours and it's boring to hear it's boring to say but that's the key you have to put in the hours and if you're professional it means the work almost no matter what but that said I'm bipolar I have my ups and downs my biggest sort of weakness as an artist is that my bipolar is often keeping me from doing the work so I can do these little short burst drawings no problem even though I'm in a depression but getting through the main body of work is really hard so the bipolar definitely does interfere with my ability to be professional but I've still managed somehow barely for many years when you draw does your mind guide your hand or does your hand guide your mind I feel I overthink you have to do both you have to do both so one of the fun things about doing all these ink monsters and stuff is that it's a lot about reacting to what's happening on the page so something happens on the page and you react with your mind and you react with your hand for me personally I don't like doing too much work that is hand only so I have much admiration for artists who can plan out a sketch and work hours and hours and hours on that sketch and then work hours and hours and hours on finishing it because at some point that becomes all hand work and very little mind work and then I get bored I've done it I prefer not to do it I prefer working in improvisational forms because then I need to keep my mind engaged all the time but not overthink take quick decisions try them out see if it works and then iterate okay, what shall we do for our second drawing today? we've done a correctus what will drawing number 2 be? take a drink of water your interpretation of the day of judgement the chimera, yes the chimera so what are the elements of the chimera again? could you do a larger more detailed version of your signature? I can do that but it's just a self-portrait so the chimera is in mythology it has the snake tail goat's head and lion let's do a chimera let's do a quick chimera remember to record it so I'm going to set up my recording now now it's recording we're going to move the correctus and then we're going to do a chimera how will we do our chimera? we have 10 likes on our YouTube 2,400 likes on our Tiktok so you're lagging behind YouTube and if you want the best view of what I'm doing and what I'm drawing then head on over to YouTube because that's the good camera monster library and sounds really cool yes, that sounds cool I feel hesitant about doing it in this live basically because I am a bit exhausted today and I'm imagining that drawing a librarian I would have to draw a the way I'm imagining it now I would have to draw a library and that sounds like a lot of work but this chimera sounds like less work more fun and maybe we'll do one drawing after or two drawings after that we'll see I have a request that I really want to do that I've been requested for a long time and that I've prepared by reading up on it and thank you for sharing the live that helps a lot so let's let's do this chimera but let's try to make it a little bit let's change the brush to a little bit looser brush and let's try to make the chimera a bit darker than your usual give him an angry face looks like a rooster at the moment it does look like a rooster at the moment maybe we can switch and just do a rooster but we won't I'm trying my best to watch both chats both on YouTube and on the Tickety Talk which is of course kinda hard so if you have an interesting question or you have something you want me to talk about and I don't see the comment wait a few minutes and comment again don't spam but you know don't fear posting it twice how is the game coming along so that's the reason why I am really exhausted because we have a deadline for the outcast Silver Raiders RPG which is currently crushing it on Kickstarter we can say crushing it it's doing ridiculously well on Kickstarter and but we have a deadline which is actually before the Kickstarter is over and since the Kickstarter went well that means we have the opportunity to we have the opportunity to make the game and that opens up opportunities to enter it into competitions and stuff and that means deadlines so right now I'm working my ass off to finish all the illustrations next week so that we have time to enter it into a competition and I honestly I honestly don't know if I'm going to make it I think by this time tomorrow I will know whether I make it or not but you know I try and you know today I've made I think six different pieces for five different pieces for four outcast Silver Raiders and they all look pretty decent so I see a lion that's because I'm drawing a lion that's correct but it's not just a lion it has some more things as well that you will see so hopefully I can finish the illustration for the game next week and we can enter said competition but I sort of right now today I managed to do just enough pieces that there's still a small chance that we can make it and tomorrow I have to do a lot more pieces so I have to do I think there are some days I need to do about 10 pieces which is kind of insane hello sir and I have to do those pieces without the quality dipping too much I mean the quality has been up and down because you have good days, you have bad days, you have good drawings you have bad drawings but we've kept a certain standard and I need to I need to continue meeting that standard even though the art has definitely changed a lot during the process the art has become a lot sloppier and looser and darker and grimmer but that is is not a result of time management it's a result of me getting more confident with what I want to do with the art and that Isaac likes what I want to do and that people react and also getting more confident working directly with a brush and not doing all the not doing all the penciling and that stuff all the early art for the Kickstarter was fully penciled and done the traditional illustration comic book way and that's not how the ending the last few pieces are made and and I can show you some of the pieces afterwards I guess hello good sir your art is fantastic much love thank you so much I don't know why I became Borat at the end of that sentence but it happens sometimes we all become Borat am I still located near or in Bergen yes in a little solace right outside Bergen any other questions so do you guys know what a chimera is well one of you hopefully know since one of you requested the chimera but the chimera is a monster from Greek mythology I think it's one of the ones that's probably lifted from it Mesopotamian from Middle Eastern mythology because you know a lot of the Greek mythology is taken from there evolved from there but the chimera is this creature that is part lion part goat and part snake and it has become the de facto word for any mix of different creatures any time you see different animals mixed into a new kind of monster that is a chimera I'm literally going to Bergen in the new year to see your art in person excellent fantastic so I do have stuff at Galilee Fjallar even when I don't have an exhibition up you can go and ask there and they are glad to show my work there part lion, part goat, part snake 100% badass yes there are human chimeras too so what's the definition of a human chimera we don't mess it up it is a how are you thank you bonita bonita art and illustration is in the tiktok chat very good realistic artist very different style from me I once did a little paint over on one of my ink blots didn't you where you could see what she saw in an ink blot and that is exciting I want to do more of that 12 likes on youtube and 6,900 likes on tiktok so we have a lot of work to do youtube thank you very much thank you you keep freezing that I can't do anything with I can't do anything with internet connection sorry to hear that sorry if I'm freezing hopefully the archive version on youtube will be great hopefully so if you can't see what I'm doing on the tiktok stream then head on over to the youtube stream and see if that's better how you're bipolar how you're bipolar that is a strange question do you mean how am I in my bipolar cycles right now I am in the longest and deepest depression I've had in quite a few years but on the positive side I am a lot better than I were in my deepest depression just a few years ago and I take a I choose to see that as a result of me keeping up my exercise my running and also daily arts practices and mindfulness practices and all of that stuff and I think that even though it doesn't make me cured from my bipolar I do think it makes me better than I would have been so mmm just love your methods and creativity thank you punita thank you so much so what is a chimera in humans a non-crazy crazy cat lady on tiktok says that if you as a Saigot have absorbed some of your twin you can become a chimera I thought it was something to do with absorbing your twin in the womb at some point so the word chimera is used for a lot of things love how it turned out thank you was it your idea because I yeah I love how it turned out as well probably number this as a part of my ink monster series but I don't remember the numbers today oh yeah thank you for sending roses over on tiktok on youtube you can't send any sort of gift because I'm not monetized there yet I'm working on it um you are great thank you um but it's going very slow building a youtube audience right now but I am definitely going to do more I have some interesting things planned as soon as I'm finished with the outcast Silver Raiders Kickstarter um okay and one of the things I want to do more on youtube is actually to talk about more about mental health because I find it strange that there's so little content comparatively little content about art and the mental health on youtube compared to how many artists I know who are struggling with mental health so someone on tiktok asks it was a question because I'm depressed for a year or two now I don't have a thing what I'm interested in but so happy to see you drawing thank you so much so um the way my bipolar works is that I have been depressed in some sort shape or form since I was 12 years old every single day in some shape or form and that sucks but my bipolar also has these periods of let's I have more like this better like that I also have these periods of hypomania that comes much less less regularly where I'm very creative very energized don't sleep and if I don't watch the sleep patterns I will crash and fall into a deeper depression and you know when I'm talking about good periods and bad periods I'm really talking about periods of mild depression and periods of moderate depression um uh and there's an interesting comment on YouTube saying I don't think I've ever met an artist who didn't deal with some kind of mental health struggles like seriously musicians, visual artists, writers yeah I sort of agree and also the artists I've met that don't struggle there are commonalities between the artistic process and uh bipolar cycles that that I think are worth exploring even if even for artists who are not do not have any diagnosis and I also see there's a ton of content on YouTube like what to do with burnout how to avoid burnout what to do with art block how to avoid art block how to get out of art block and I see with a lot of these artists will sort of find a solution for how to deal with let's say burnout or art block and they will make a great video about how they finally manage to um to break their art block to break their burnout and once and for all be creative and then two or three or four years later they will make that exact video again learning the exact same thing again and I suspect that there is a thing with creativity that has some sort of cycle that is similar to the bipolar cycle so that's just my theory but let's do one more drawing on this free art show what do you want me to draw and David Ketchers how the art says I struggle with it as well yeah and I get after starting to talk about mental health on tiktok especially because I did I did talk about mental health on my social media for many years but it's not really until I got on tiktok that people started caring but after I started talking publicly on tiktok about mental health I've gotten so many comments and messages and also comments in real life from artists saying like from some great great artists and some of them say thank you for talking about this I want to talk about my issues more and others say thank you for talking about this I will not talk about my issues but I feel I feel the same way and I or have similar issues and it's been so many of these types of comments both in public and private that I feel that as artists we need to do to talk about mental health not just in terms of that one burnout I got over or even that one depression I got over because there's a lot of art videos about that one depression I got over but not so many videos that go more in-depth about how these problems tend to re-occur do we have any more requests an owl or a crow yes so on YouTube we got a question hi I let us see what the question was on YouTube I think my biggest issue with creativity is I get frustrated when something isn't coming together the way I want or just that creative block which is frustrating so yeah so you need to you need to yeah what can I say you need to get over the frustration of things not becoming as you want your art will never become exactly as you want it and the reason is very simple the reason is because when you become a better artist when you train your art skill you also train your imagination so your imagination will always be one step beyond your skills and it should always be one step beyond your skills otherwise I'm sorry to say it if your skills is one step beyond your imagination you're probably a boring artist sorry so with that comes a sense of disappointment again and again when you imagine something beautifully and then it turns out that it's just another drawing when you get it down on paper and that really really sucks I can't say how much that sucks but you have to get used to it and one of the great things about random ink drawing exercises is that it helps you get used to it because when you're reacting to what happens on the paper then you don't have that very strong visual imagination to go by you're reacting to the paper you don't have the time to fall in love with the idea of what you draw and that's one of the ways that doing this inkblot art is helping me continuously it's making it easier for me to accept the that there is some difference between what I get down on paper and what I have in my head and there are other exercises that could probably help do the same but what are we drawing now I have downloaded so many images of very scariest artwork characters excellent I hope you have downloaded my images because all my images are up there for free use so please do download them there are a lot of ways to support me as an artist, you can support on Patreon, you can support by subscribing on YouTube and commenting and watching the videos and doing all of that and TikTok and sharing and all of that is to use my art all my art is available for free use and even if you just use it to download it and put it on your phone as your phone background that that is supporting me because someone might see your phone background and say who did that kind of want to look through your art and find something I would like to draw on my own in my own style do it, I love to see when artists interpret my work good or bad I love to see that and that is one of the things that you are allowed to do with my art because I release it under a creative comments license you can not only copy it, but you can change it to your own art I still haven't said what I'm drawing because on YouTube Matthew commented that he wanted me to draw a scarecrow and at the exact same moment I think someone on TikTok commented that I should draw an owl or a crow so I thought about maybe I should draw a scarecrow but a scarecrow would still just be called a scarecrow so there's no pun there scarecrow is just a scarecrow it's just a scarecrow that looks like a crow I can't make it into a pun but a scarecrow maybe that can work and you know when I decided that this would be a scarecrow this exact moment up until starting to talk about what I'm drawing I thought I was drawing a scarecrow but nope it is in fact a scarecrow owl so sorry to Matthew that on YouTube that I couldn't draw your scarecrow but I hope you like this scarecrow instead and to you on TikTok who wanted a crow or an owl I mean this has to be the perfect combination hasn't it I love how do you apply your negative space focused art style if you want to draw something you would think about negative space the same way for me the primary function of negative space is how to lead the eye and that is because I come from a comic book background but if you want my views on negative space and please please always call a scarecrow because it scares crows yes that's that's true probably I don't know it sounds true if you want my more in-depth views on negative space and how I use negative space then go to my YouTube and check out the video I did about a year ago a five minute video on on negative space it's in my thinking about art playlist I think that playlist subsists of only that video but there will be more you should get his get a raise he's outstanding in his field he is standing out in the field I assume you're talking about the scare owl your art is so phenomenal always so inspiring thank you for sharing your talent thank you for sharing your comments we're up to 14 likes on our YouTube and 8500 likes on the TikTok so again YouTube you're lagging behind you need to press the like button I like making puns like that yes I liked your pun thank you for the opportunity to request a drawing this is a wonderful experience to see it drawn, thank you and I will be posting the video of the Chimera and of the scare owl and hopefully all of you will share and enjoy and watch when I post the shorter videos as well love your work, thank you so much and I haven't said this enough, this stream but you know I've had there's been probably a thousand people or two thousand in the on and off in the stream on TikTok and a few dozen on YouTube if only one percent of you supported on Patreon that would help me more than you can ever know Justin says I'm doing solo backpacking trip to Europe, I'm starting in Bergen so I can see your work in real life excellent so wow that is I mean that is kind of amazing I'm really flattered so if I'm in town and available then perhaps you can see my studio which is in the center of town as well so what does the Japanese or Chinese symbol you write on your art mean it's not the Japanese or Chinese symbol it's a self portrait of me in a hat with glasses and yes it's done in the style of a pictogram because it's a pictogram of me no, no I was talking I was talking and I didn't see oh oh oh no scare crowd I thought I made a mistake but it wasn't a mistake it was planned along it's the scare crowd rescued in the last minute I know you said the YouTube would have the best view but I like the TikTok view better don't say that to anyone I'm trying to grow the YouTube and yeah I'm the YouTube view is in horizontal format while the TikTok view is in blah vertical format so so that's the difference and especially if you're watching on your phone yeah probably the TikTok has a better view of the art so I take everything back I lied to you all and I'm not sorry I didn't know I was lying but I'm not sorry at all no pictogram for this one I made it there ooh so today since I have been working for so long on the stuff for the Outcast Silver Raiders RPG currently on Kickstarter I will end it here but let's first see how the Outcast Silver Raiders Kickstarter is doing actually let's see how is it doing ooh 630,000 out of 175 thousand so that's that's more than 300% that is doing really good TikTok got 10,000 likes now yeah and YouTube got 16 not 16,000 but 16 so let's do a couple of questions answers the last questions before I end and what kind of music can inspire you good music can inspire me good music not so much good music very much and I when I'm not drawing on a live I often draw to music I often have soundtracks it is a lot of dark music for my art it's a lot of metal a lot of alternative metal and stuff like neuroses and ices and ruins of the beaverast and loads of that kind of moody stuff that keeps me inspired for the art for writing if I'm writing I have all the years since the 90s I've always listened to plastic man with the album consumed minimalistic techno that gets me in the writing mood and in real life I listen to a lot of different music a lot of country a lot of old rock a lot of a little bit of hip hop a little bit of everything also you can only hit like once on youtube yes I know the game is rigged but I like that the game is rigged because that's just like real life the game is rigged can you draw me something that I will tattoo I have wolf and a brown bear you can find thousands of pieces that are you can find in my gallery for free use go to the link in my bio find my gallery and you know find so much to tattoo tattoo but have you talked about the bear I'm more than a brown bear you are a real nature talent I love your pictures from the city thank you I have been mumbling and fumbling for too long now let's see what we drew today we drew a cactus and we drew something more we drew a chimera and finally we drew the scarecrow this has been fun I'll see you all next week when I will be doing more requests so send me your request that will be fun too I'll end the YouTube first


Coming to you from our GIS Studios, I am Anithya Antwan and this is your Midday News Brief. The Ministry of Commerce, International Trade, Investment, Enterprise Development and Consumer Affairs in partnership with the Embassy of the Republic of China Taiwan will once again host its annual St. Lucia Taiwan Trade Show. The focus for this year's trade show is family. The 12th edition of the St. Lucia Taiwan Trade Show provides an avenue for a wide range of quality, authentic goods and services given the general public and the business community and opportunity to experience the best of St. Lucia and the Republic of China Taiwan. Marketing specialist in the Ministry of Commerce, Ruthanne Carrasco-Philip, says the trade show will allow for the general public to provide feedback to the artisans on their goods and services. Participating in the trade show this year are eight Taiwanese companies and 45 entrepreneurs from St. Lucia. Deputy Chief of Mission at the Taiwanese Embassy Bill Wang says it is not only a trade show but a partnership. The 12th annual St. Lucia Taiwan Trade Show will be held at the Golden Palm Event Center Rodney Heights from November 29th to December 1st, 2019. Prime Minister Hon. Alan Chastney has reiterated government's commitment to citizen safety as outlined in the Medium-Term Development Plan for 2019-2022. The plan speaks to the strengthening of the island's capacity for investigation and prosecution. An integral element is surveillance. Against that backdrop, Hon. Chastney has revealed an increase in the stock of closed circuit television CCTV cameras on the island. This has been your midday news brief. Thank you for watching.


Okay. I need somebody to send me a connection. Yes. Okay. Janelle, have you recognized Coco's number? No. Yes, ma'am. What she's talking about is YouTube. You have to go to another, a different page on YouTube. I'll send her the link. Thanks. Okay. But she is on the meeting via the phone. Yes. Yes. And I'll have it on for a couple of hours. Well, that's very good. Did we run the roll call vote in the meeting that got put out of? Mr. Mays, you're out of order. I am now going to start the parliamentary training on deliatory motions and appeals and absences. I'm quiet as a church member. This is Monday. Mr. Mays, the chair is speaking. This is Monday, March 1st, 2021. The training was supposed to be 5.30 to 8.30 p.m. According to my computer, it's now 7.34 p.m. Remote member remote announcement pursuant to the newly revised Open Meetings Act. Each council member shall state that they are attending the meeting remotely and shall state where he or she is physically located county or city and state. Madam clerk. Mr. Mays. Yes, I'm presently attending this meeting different from the one I got put out of and I'm attending remotely from Ingham County. I'm up here dealing with Anna Nick and state and senate legislators. I'm attending from Ingham County in a hotel room in Ingham County electronically under the rules and laws of the state of Michigan. God bless you. Mr. Davis. Yes. Marius Davis, 2nd Ward, attending remotely in Flint, Michigan, located in Genesee County. Mr. Guerra. Fort Michigan, Genesee County. Ms. Fields. Flint, Michigan, Genesee County. Ms. Winfrey Carter. Ms. Winfrey Carter. Uh-oh. This is Councilwoman Winfrey Carter, 5th Ward. I am attending this meeting remotely from Flint, Michigan, in Genesee County. Ms. Galloway. Councilwoman Galloway, 7th Ward, attending from Flint, Michigan. Mr. Greaves. Attending remotely from Flint, Michigan, in Genesee County. Ms. Winfrey. I am attending remotely in Flint, Michigan, Genesee County. Thank you. There is member contact information on the agenda for all city council people. Now, procedures on conducting electronic meetings. All boards and commissions must adhere to all laws established under the Michigan-compiled laws, and in accordance with the revisions to the Open Meetings Act adopted in Senate Bill 1108, as passed on October 13, 2020, signed into law on October 16, 2020. The brief overview of the purpose is to receive parliamentary training on deliatory motions and the motions to appeal, as well as abstentions. I will say that this is considered an informal meeting, and we will now have public speaking, and after that, Council response. Do we have any public speakers, Madam Chair? The next person has been muted. Unmuted, I'm sorry. The next person has been unmuted. I will pass for now, so you can get to the training. Thank you. The next person has been unmuted. Yeah, my name is Austin. Man, this is something else. Look, Councilwoman Wordy. A young lady was on last council meeting, and she read a letter to you that you put out bad information. You said that you put out bad information. I could feel that that was reckless for you to say that about a permanent newspaper in our city. And she asked you to apologize. I know that you heard her ask you for that apology. I need to be apologized to her. Please let the residents hear you apologize and say that you are wrong for saying that you put out bad information. Don't get mad at me just because I said that. That's just a question. Councilwoman Kate Sears. You should not be president right now. Councilman Davis did not have even voted for you. How can Councilman Davis, which is Vice President, vote for you knowing that he could have been the president? He allowed them to persuade his vote of voting for himself. So that lets me know that his votes are moved in a wrong direction.  Don't vote for yourself. Vote for Kate Sears. That was a crazy vote for you to vote for her also. But I know during that time you were endorsing President Trump at that time. And I hear you say that he was trying to bring money into our community. President Trump hadn't done anything, didn't even say split one time in the four years that he was in office. And remember, I'm just speaking on this as you endorsing him, not you voting for him. You used your official capacity as Vice President when you got out at the airport. You was in your official capacity as Vice President Councilman Davis. So I'm speaking as Councilman Davis, not Mr. Maurice Davis. So please don't get upset because I'm speaking on you as far as your decision making in the political realm of endorsing President Trump, thinking that he was not racist and that he was going to bring money.  He wasn't planning on bringing nothing back here. Nothing.  But I'll go forward. Please stand up, Mr. Watson. You have other Republicans fighting Republicans right now because they voted for President Trump. So it's the same thing here. Democrats going out, other Democrats who would vote for President Trump. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Watson. Next public speaker. Next person has been unmuted. Next person has been unmuted. Thank you. My name is Chris Delmone. I live in the, in Fort Michigan in the 6th Ward. And I would say that, you know, it's been nearly four years. I don't know if the rules have been changed at all or certainly I can say changed substantially but yet we still hear their flawed. And I think any of your actions or inactions must be looked at in the sense, are we as a council, am I as a council person moving the city of Flint forward? And if you find that you're not moving the city of Flint forward, you need to refrain from what you're doing right now because, you know, to win a battle is not winning the war on behalf of the residents of Flint. Some battles you just need to give up on, retreat from, and look at the larger picture. The larger picture is city of Flint, the residents of the city. And without that, you know, what is one doing? I mean, we're struggling. Our community is struggling right now. We are in so many crisis. It's unbelievable. People are now just getting their water, settlement, papers in the mail. I received mine today. I mean, the settlement was, what, three, four weeks ago? And now we have like three, four weeks to make a major decision. We still have a water crisis going on. We have a pandemic. We have so many issues in Flint that we need to always ask ourselves, are we doing what's best for the residents, what's best for the city, and move forward, move on. It's imperative. Thank you. The next person has been on muted. Yes. Good evening. Again, my name is A.C. Dumas. And I reside in the third ward in the city of Flint. I want to say, Miss Fields, that you were incorrect. And you lied when you said, along with a council person referring to Councilman Mays, said anything about... Mr. Dumas? Mr. Dumas? You lied? You're out of order. You called your order out of order, and you've been termed by glide. I'm not out of order. One of order. One of order. What is your point of order, Mr. Mays? If it's factual that people lied, he can say that. And if you rule him out of order, I'm not going to appeal it. He can say if he knows or believes people lied. That ain't no personal attack. That's factual. Mr.  I am trying to do what we've been trained to do. So, Mr. Dumas, you can proceed. Your time will be adjusted, but please refrain from using words like that in personal attacks. Please proceed. Again, Ms. Fields, you lied when you said that I- Mr. Dumas, I'm going to have to remove you from the meeting if you don't- I appeal to ruling of the chair. Here's an appeal to the ruling of the chair. Is there a second? I second that, Madam President. This is Councilwoman Galloway. It's been moved and seconded. I will say that we are not allowed to use words like lied, liar, anything like that. We've already received one training in the quorum and debate, and we were told that words like that should not be allowed by the public and or either by council members. So, I am ruling the gentleman out of order. I've asked him to refrain from that, and he insists on doing it. So, if he will not stop, he's going to have to be removed from the meeting. Who else would like to speak? Madam President. Madam President. Mr. Galloway and then, excuse me, Ms. Galloway and then Mr. Mays. Thank you, Madam President. So, Madam President, the only concern I have with this is you decided as an elected official as the president of this council to specifically target Mr. Dumas' radio show. That was, it was unnecessary. He went on the public record in the first meeting, sounding as though he appreciated what Dr. Reynolds had said, and then you deemed it necessary in your final comment to specifically say, Mr. Dumas, I'm under the impression that in your Saturday meeting, you and Councilman Mays, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I hope that you will go on your show and give better information. You did that and that was wrong for you to do that. And so for him to come up and stand on the open record that you opened up, and if I was a judge, I just imagine a judge would say, Madam President, you opened the door for that. You stated something as if you deemed it to be factual and now he comes here to say what you said was not in fact a fact. And so, Madam President, you can't have it both ways. You were wrong. You should have never said anything about Mr. Dumas' radio show. It had nothing to do with your final comment, but you needed to do it. And so I'm going to support that the chair is wrong in this decision and that she does not in fact get to rule Mr. Dumas out of the meeting for dreaming what he deemed that you said it's fact on your turn. He's saying that it's a lie. Not that you lied, but that what you said was a lie. And so that's the difference. And so this council needs to vote fairly and make sure that we don't take away the public's right to dispute a comment that we made. And so thank you, Madam President. Madam President. Mr. Mays? Yeah, Madam President, this is a crucial constitutional issue as what a public person has to say. If Mr. Dumas know for a fact just as I do that you've misconstruing the rules and lying Mr. Winfrey is abstaining and just to help you out. Mr. Mays, please watch your language. I'm going to watch it and I'm going to say it. And I wouldn't care if you tried to remove me because I appeal Mr. Dumas' right of freedom of speech and due process. This citizen has the right of freedom of speech and due process. If he stayed in factual matters, just as there's a fact that Mr. Winfrey didn't say a reason for abstaining. Mr. Dumas has derived the state facts. I wouldn't care how Gary voted. He running in the third ward, Mr. Dumas. I wouldn't care how Maurice Davis voted. Don't care how the preacher, Mr. Winfrey voted. My job is to appeal rather than you rule him out of order. He stayed in facts. Facts is undisputable. They're recorded, they're recorded in this record and I'm not gonna sit here and then they let you and allow you to rule these citizens out of order for petitioning and filing their grievances against elected officials. We can talk about Trump. We can talk about Biden. We can talk about Mr. Neely. Mr. Neely, we can talk about Gretchen Whitmer. We can talk about Snyder. And you're not gonna interfere with these immediately two minutes that these residents have. You might not like what they say. You might wanna predict the narrative but every time I wouldn't care if you would move me left or right. When I hear an injustice, leave these people alone. Let them utilize their two minutes. They can speak, they can speak freely and I'm a monitor whether or not they're talking factually or whether or not they're Jermaine, Tito, Marlon, and Jackie.   When I know this is an intelligent group of residents, I'll be voting no that you ruled in Mr. Dumas, I order, let this man exercise his freedom of speech. He's a member of the public. And I hope he win counsel if he understand what's happening because you show enough butcher in the process and I ain't gonna stand for it. I wouldn't care if I'm removed from every need from nine to 2022. I just can't do it. God bless you. Would anyone else like to speak on this appeal? Yes, Madam President. Ms. Wooding and then Mr. Davis. I have come, sorry, one second. I have come to the conclusion that I don't care what anyone says about anybody. Because Mr. Mays. Yeah, I got really, you know, why you're not aware of anything I understand. My bad. Ms. Wooding, proceed. It's a double standard for some. They don't want others to talk about them, but it's when somebody, they can't stand then they're all for it. I would like to just for the record point out that Mr. Mays is doing the council, including Ms. Galway, because she threw him out of the meeting. She had called him out of order more times than any other president of this council and yet now she is defending him. It's a really weird, really bizarre situation that we have on our hands. Memories, I guess, aren't very long. After this rule meeting, which will be a half an hour, when it was supposed to be three hours, I will be leaving. I just want you to know that I'm advanced. I just cannot tolerate this nastiness, ugliness all night long. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Davis. For the members of Mays, is he gonna be leaving the council if he won't get ready to leave? Mr. Mays, you're out of order. Mr. Davis, you're out of order. Yeah, thank you for indulging. I'm glad to go with Mr. Dumas on this one because every week I got rid of crude and everybody sit back and let it happen, all kinds of issues. And a lot of them when the 99% was live. So, you know, he was a public comment and they have the right to speak. I don't like some time with Mr., which to say, but I tolerated it. And I'm understanding I'm elected. That's where you have to come. So I ain't gonna have to shed in the public dire time they say something I don't agree with, but I will just try to, you know, take him and just keep what I can and throw away what I don't need. So I'm gonna side with Mr. Dumas on this one because I don't want to wear it on that thin line, but the public can't make a truthful comment the way they feel because they may not know all our rules and regulations. Long as they ain't cussing or something real vulgar, I'll say, hey, let it ride like it's been riding on me. Thank you for indulging, Madam Chair. Thank you, Mr. Davis. Mr. Graham? Yeah, I think too that we have to walk a fine line when it comes to allowing what the residents say. I know the residents are entitled to their opinion. And a lot of times they say things that might not be factual. However, they only have two minutes to say such things. They can always be corrected when us council members respond. I don't appreciate the fact that how you say that you ruled the attack and then the individual say that right away again, on purpose, it seemed like to spite you. However, I think that we have to make sure that public commenters and residents and individuals have the right to speak at council meetings regardless of what they say. So I'm gonna be rolling against the chair in this situation. However, I do think that they should be respectful. And keep in mind, I think council members definitely should be held to a higher status. If we're in these meetings, we're professionals. We understand how these rules work. And unfortunately, negligent, wrong flags, and they're still continuously made. So however, I would be voting against the chair. Thank you, Mr. Guerrero. Anyone else like to speak on this appeal? Hearing none, I would like to say what I objected to was the use of the term liars. In DeCorm in debate, Ms. Cochran made it really clear that those words shouldn't be tolerated. That we are never gonna have DeCorm in debate unless both the public and council are held to a certain standard. Now, Mr. Dumas could have said what you said wasn't factual or I disagree with you, but instead he had to resort to the use of liar, lie. That was not necessary. And we're never gonna get DeCorm unless people get used to being able to speak. And I agree, the public can speak and say they don't disagree with us or they don't agree with us, they're wrong, whatever. But you have to be respectful.  Now, I had asked Mr. Dumas once and allowed him to proceed and then he deliberately did it again. So that shows you there was no intent to be respectful because he certainly could have chosen another word and I think he has enough words in his vocabulary to find a word that make and day what he wants to say but do it civilly and respectfully. So if you vote yes, you agree with the ruling of the chair. If you vote no, you agree with the appeal. Madam, what roll call? Mr. Mase? No. Mr. Davis? No. Mr. Guerra? No. Ms. Fields? Yes. Ms. Winter Carter? No. Ms. Galloway? No. Mr. Griggs? Yes. Ms. Worthing? No. Voted to yes and six no. To yes, six no, the appeal wins. All right, Mr. Dumas, your time has started again. You have a floor. I want to thank those who voted not to take away my right but again, Ms. Fields, you lied and you lied in reference to my program, my show that I agreed with Dr. Reynolds and I did agree with Dr. Reynolds because attorney Valdemar Washington sent me an email at one in the morning on Saturday morning and asked me to save what Dr. Reynolds had said and I didn't know anything about a lead testing and when you said that myself and Congressman Mase had a flip flop, then you lied and the liars lied and if you say if I have no respect for you, Ms. Fields, none whatsoever. I don't have any respect for you and I want to again thank those who voted, you know, in my favor or in the favor of the public, not necessarily mind the right of the public, you know and I want to thank you for listening to my broadcast. Yes, I am intelligent and yes, I do have a very expensive vocabulary but the Bible said lie. So the Bible can say lie, I certainly can say lie and so I don't take it back. I have no respect for you as president because you lies, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Dumas. Next public speaker please. Oh, the person has been unmuted. Yes, this is Robert Jones. Kate Fields, you do, this is so ridiculous, Kate Fields, you need to resign tonight and I said resign. How can you tell us what words we can say or cannot say? Have you provided a list of words to the public which we can say or not say during a council meeting, during our time we can speak? You cannot tell me how to use my words.  Evil worthy, Miss Evil Worthy, you need to resign tonight. Mr. Mays will not be the only one so in the city the way you're trying to silence me and my first amendment I will be showing the city next. My next issue is who is running the city of Flint Facebook account? When the mayor was up giving the budget, why everything is about him and he's speaking on the Facebook but the city council meetings are not on the Facebook. The city council hearings need to be on the Facebook not just him giving a budget of presentation. Who is running the Facebook account? This is a city face. If he wants a mayor account, he needs to get his own Facebook for a mayor's account but it says the city of Flint. Why is the mayor running the Facebook account like it's a mayor's Facebook? It is the city of Flint Facebook and the city of Flint city council needs to be on that Facebook. I shouldn't be have to going back from YouTube to Facebook to try to see the presentation. It needs to be on one place. Everything each account needs to have its own separate place. The city of Flint needs to have a YouTube channel it needs to have a Facebook, a Twitter. The mayor cannot run the Facebook account. And I'm so pissed right now because even wordy, Kate Phil, Mr. Griggs, y'all need to just give it up and get out the way so we can move this city forward. Our city has 50% African-Americans and black lives matter and we are coming to vote you guys out. Next public speaker, please. No, thank you. Next person now. Yes, the next person has been unmuted. Hello, can you hear me? Yes ma'am. Thank you so much for this time. I just want to say that. Can you state your name please? This is Michelle Coulter. This is Michelle Coulter, North Side of the West. I just want to say that tonight really shows why this parliamentary training is so necessary for many on the council. I mean, three hours have been taken up on orderly processes. And so it just is, how are we ever going to be able to get anything done? This all started out with the mayor proposing a budget and it was not done in orderly fashion. That it should have been. And one of the council people spoke up on it. And so now with the rules being stated, point of order being called for that reason so that everything goes in orderly fashion. No dialogue, I'm thinking when public speaker, public speaker is speaking from my understanding but I don't know the rules either. And so I just want us to let's get this training done, better understand these rules so that we don't spend so much time back and forth on who's right, who's wrong, who's better. I mean, we're all in this together. And that's the only way that this is going to work as this team. And so I just thank you all for this time. And I don't think they should have been voted out but we're past that now. And thank you. The next person has been unmuted. Good evening. This is Tanya Burns, sixth ward resident. My council person, Councilman Herbert Winfrey left and I completely understand that last meeting was a train wreck. I implore each person to hold themselves to a higher standard. The train is facing a water crisis and a pandemic and residents want to see good leadership. Please stop the negative attacks and the snarky remarks and work together cohesively for the benefit of our city. One thing we have to remember as much as we went through and it can be referred to as trauma, people are looking for good information, good leadership and I have actually dealt with each and everyone on the council, not each council member either worthy. But each and every one of you, I have seen in a better light and talked to and dealt with. And I implore you to please reach within yourselves because listening to that last meeting was horrific. Please remember leadership matters and work together for the benefit of the residents of Flint. Thank you. Next person has been unmuted. Yes, this is Pastor Gilbert. I live in the city of Flint in the seventh ward, good evening to all and to President Kate Fields and Vice President Maurice Davis. I'm extremely disappointed in what I've heard thus far concerning how this budget came forth and the response of the council members. I just want to admonish the council to remember one thing, that you work for the people, you receive pay from the people in each ward. And also it just seems to me that we have not learned that our city deserves respect but our city will never have the respect that it deserves if our leaders are not respectful. I said it last month about Councilman Davis and how his life was threatened. It really disturbed me. And then you want to shut down public comment, the people that you work for, the people that pay your salary, I'm extremely disturbed. And I hope that Ms. Coco can help us turn the corner. I've been against Parliamentarian and the city council because the city council's legislative body that it should make rules and ordinance and regulation and resolution and stuff like that on the behalf of the people, the citizens that put you there. And I do agree with one statement. Every one of you and I have disagreed with every one of you from time to time but if anybody thinks that we don't have intelligent professional people in this city they ain't for a rude awakening. But the way that this meeting has went so far it is very disturbing. So I hope that we will humble ourselves and when we go into this meeting with Ms. Coco, we need to humble ourselves in an almighty hand of God and let her brain forth what she's had and then use the Flint City Charter, Section 1801 and 1802 if you want the rules changed then change the rules. Don't keep talking about it. You have the power to do so. But we must have courtesy and professionalism and respect for one another. It's all as vigorous as the day is due. Thank you. Thank you, Pastor Gilbert. Next speaker, please. The next person has been unmuted. Hi. Hello. Hello. Yes, we can hear you. Yes. Thank you. My name is Elizabeth Taylor. I live in Miss Galloway's Ward who I'm very proud of as my councilperson. I really miss you being the chairperson. I think putting council people off and silencing them repeatedly does not demonstrate leadership. To accept counseling or training from Ms. Coco and then use her as a back as if that's how Ms. Coco trained me, then it's not helpful. The chair did not receive the training correctly. The other thing is there is a racial nuance that's very deep in the council. And I'm wondering if Ms. Coco it has the qualifications to manage that. And I ask that question because the last time the chair called out that the council was a bunch of banshee, Ms. Coco did not respond to that. It happened to be Mr. Mays who brought that to her attention. If she does not understand racial nuances in the city of Flint, then we need to seek another person. Just because you're skilled in an area does not mean you have the nuances as the chair kept using that word this evening to batter people, which I think is inappropriate, which I'm doing now to her. And those are my comments for the evening. Thank you. Thank you. Next speaker, please. Hello? Yes. Hi, this is Barbara Moore. I was on earlier, but my car dropped for some reason. But anyway, what I would like to say is that this is really, really, really pathetic. It's so evident that this Flint City Council is very dysfunctional. And there are those that want to hop on the fact that no, I do not live within the city of Flint. And I thank God that I am not governed by this legislative body because who knows where I would be? You know, I feel sorry for the residents and my loved ones that live within the city of Flint to have to abide by and put up with this pathetic situation. And as far as this point of information that was called tonight, and that's where things really went awry, I recall several meetings ago when Mr. Arthur Wilson was speaking and Councilman Davis objected. President Fields asked if Councilman Davis was, I mean, Arthur Wilson was willing to give up the floor and he said no. So they proceeded and let him continue to talk. Nobody, no council member objected to that. Nobody but Councilman Davis and he was told that he was out of order at that point. So my point being is this, you sit in mixed signals, you need to stick to either one way or another. You can't have it both ways.  That's irrelevant, you know? You're not voting because you black and all white or whatever, but see the whole game plan is to set the agenda.  But he's letting it be known that he plans a little regulating because they're trying to set the stage to get five, at least five black people in there that's going to vote against the agenda of Mayor Scheld, Scheldon Neely. And that's the point, you know? And like Council Lady Worthing said, if you accept the budget, that's not meaning that you're approving the budget. You know, I mean, that don't make no sense not to accept it, how can you even look at it if you're not accepting it?  Now here it is, meeting started shortly after 4.30, it's going on 8.30. So you really don't really have time for a training. I think at this point you need to reschedule the training, but it's obvious that training is very much needed. I mean, this is sad. Again, I say, I'm glad you don't govern me. Thank you. Is there another public speaking, Janelle? Yes, one more person has been unmuted and that's the last of the speakers. Are there any written comments? We have one. Yes, ma'am, we have one. It says, it's from Chloe Weinman. It's a good evening. I think it's lovely city council is going through the training to have more productive and kinder meetings. However, I don't think you will be able to heal and repair this body without some heartfelt apologies. Sheldon Neely needs to apologize to Eric Mays for the assault he took at the hands of Duval Murdoch in February 2020. Duval is allegedly Sheldon's brother-in-law and remains one of Sheldon's top appointees in the mayor's office and one of the highest paid city employees. It is alleged Sheldon has continued to use this incident to mockingly threaten other people as in, don't make me send Duval after you. There is nothing humorous about great bodily harm. Mr. Murdoch needs to be held accountable for his actions in a courtroom. Marjorie Raymer needs to publicly apologize to Eric Mays for putting out a wildly unethical official city press release, endorsing that this is unprovoked assault of an elderly public servant. I'd also like to know why Marjorie makes nearly 120,000 a year off city taxpayers while her two predecessors who were only paid about 60,000 per year. Maurice Davis needs to apologize to this entire city for endorsing Donald Trump. It is beyond disgusting that you allowed yourself to be used and exploited and embarrassed this city for your five minutes of pleading fame. Please admit you made a mistake and apologize. And all nine of you need to apologize to the public for doing nothing to improve this city since you were elected in 2017. Even our family down in Mississippi and Georgia know about the notorious Flint city council or council as they call it. The city is disgusting. The trash and level of condemned homes is beyond comprehension. Police do not come when we call 911. Gunshots every night. You've allowed liquor stores to destroy every neighborhood. Nobody should live this way, especially children and the elderly. All nine of you are to blame. I suspect all nine of you will be voted out later this year. You only have yourself to blame. Bless all the good people left here, Chloe Weinman. And that's it, Madam President. Thank you. We'll now have council response. This time we'll start with the ninth ward. Ms. Worthing? No thanks. Mr. Greggs? Yes. This is to Ms. Coulter, Ms. Burns, Ms. Moore and Pastor Gilbert. I totally agree with your thoughts and feelings. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Greggs. Ms. Galloway? No comments, thank you. Mr. Winfrey? I don't think Mr. Winfrey's there. Ms. Winfrey Carter? I have no comments at this time. Thank you. Mr. Guerrero? No comment. Mr. Davis? Thank you for indulging, Madam Chair. A couple of points to Mr. Woodson. First of all, I hope you'll speedy recovery with your COVID stint, because I had it, and trust me, it's a beast. The thing almost killed me. Matter of fact, I could explain why I was not running for myself president, because I had said I had a virtue. I had just got out of intensive care, whether y'all believe it or not. Not at the bites of a doctor, but I got out because if you check my record, I ain't never missed a meeting. I was not health-strength-wise able to be mentally and physically strong enough to be vice president at that time. That's why I elected Ms. Fields. I mean, for president. But that's why Mr. Woodson, I needed you to know that. But I wish you a speedy recovery, because that stuff, I'm still under a bag of medicine, but moving to the piece of Trump. Now, Mr. Trump, I had a conversation. Personally, it really striked me out. I had White House calls between 20 and 60 million people responding from all over the nation. From a piece I had did on a piece of Charlie Duff out of Detroit, but this was the gist of it, so y'all can understand. Why was I voting for Trump? Because at the time, when he made the peace, he thought our water was fixed. Clinton has not been made whole. He said it hasn't, and he got concerned, well, Congressman, what could I do for Clinton, even though he was a politician? Now, I thought back when Matt Weaver was downtown, if y'all remember, Ben Carson, Republican, did a press conference with Matt Weaver and brought a $30 million check to anyone in the city of Flint, remember that, Republican, down on Trump now, to start that project that's over there across from Dora Ryder. $30 million, they got the capability and the resources to help the city. So I was required to say, Mr. Trump, people in city of Flint need help. They're in line to get food. We're in line for water. So would you please, I had requested a meeting with him at the White House, I'm wrapping up, Madam Chief, so the city of Flint, I'm wrapping up, I'm wrapping up. I wanted him to know that if he could help us with $600 million to get a $600 check a month until the city is made whole from the service line replacement, that was the conversation I had to help the whole city of Flint, not for personal reason, correct. I needed everybody to have resources so we could sustain ourselves as a community, black, white, green, and yellow. Thank you, Madam Chair, Madam Chair. Thank you, Mr. Davis. Mr. Mays? Mr. Mays? There can be him in now. Here he is, okay. Can you hear me now? I don't care how much Mr. Davis tried to make y'all believe that in the middle of black folks from Georgia to Philadelphia to Detroit to Flint was fighting for Trump, that he was justified by going with a ridiculous person as far as Trump, he's dead. I don't care if Mr. Davis make you believe that he should have voted for Capefields for president and left me Winfrey Carter, Winfrey, and Monica Galloway, he did. If this guy believe he can vote for these type of folks and y'all still reelected, y'all crazy. Let me say this. Point of information. Mr. Davis has called a point of information. Mr. Mays, do you yield to Mr. Davis? Even though that ain't the rule, yes, I allow him to ask a point of information because the rules say he got that right. I ain't studying the old rules, yes, I wanna hear the point of information. Mr. Mays, do you understand that his speaking time is counted in your speaking time? I don't care what you say. You make enough room as you go. Yes, I wanna hear from Mr. Davis. Mr. Davis? Thank you, Madam Chair. Can my colleague clarify he's dead? I need to understand that. Thank you for indulging. Mr. Trump is dead. He done lost. You were wrong. Blacks were voting for Biden and Harris all across the country. You gambled, you lost, and you were wrong. I would vote for Jackie Popper before I vote for you. I can't struggle with black folks in leadership positions when we struggle in for five or six votes and you voting with the white folks who wanna have guns at the Capitol, tear up the Capitol, you were wrong. And if that's how you believe, God bless you. That's your heart. That's your belief. I don't believe in Trump now. And then I don't believe in Kate Fields. And you done voted for both of them. It ain't just Trump, it's Kate Fields too. Now, let me give you my time.  He interrupted me with a point of information. May I have some, because I'm a contestant. You agree to it, Mr. Mays? I ain't got no problem with it. I'm a counterman. I'll be on Zoom, I'll be on Facebook, and I'll be in council meeting. I ain't tripping. Thank you, Mr. Mays. He wrong, you wrong, and me wrong. And my job is to speak truth to power. Now, let me end by saying this. It's the opposite of your maze. May I end by saying this. Okay, God bless you. Go ahead, take my time, do wrong and proceed. All right, it's time for my response. My response is, the rule is that if you agree to yield, you are taking up some of your role by the person, Mr. Mays, you're out of order. That is the rule. I would like to say just in response, it's really interesting what people here and what they remember. And as far as removing Mr. Mays from the last meeting, even though it was during final council comments, you know, Ms. Galloway, who was objecting to the same tactics and techniques that Mr. Mays was using to disrupt meetings, Ms. Galloway actually removed him more times than any council president that we've had, since Mr. Mays has been- One of them from Mays. Mr. Mays, I recognize your point of information, but I decline.  Don't try to mix this with Ms. Galloway.  You're out of order, Mr. Mays. So anyway, I would like to move on since we have about five minutes for our training at this point in time, I'm going to introduce the moderator and then I'm going to ask the moderator a question. Our trainer is- Point of order. What is your point of order, Mr. Mays? This was a meeting on the introduction of the budget. We will adjourn this meeting and then go to the order of business of the parliamentarian. Don't mix them together, please. Mr. Mays, Mr. Mays, we have long ago, long ago moved on to the parliamentary training meeting. I appeal to ruling of the chair. We've had- Here's an appeal. Is there a second? Is there a second? Is there a second? Motion dies, for lack of a second. We are well into the second meeting, Mr. Mays. You had a second. Point of order. My mouth- Point of order. What is- Point of order. What rule has been- We have to adjourn this meeting on the budget and then convene a meeting on Cocoa and Robert's rules. As three postings were made. You can't mix them together, that's my point. Mr. Mays, we did adjourn that meeting. Janelle? Yes, Janelle? Yes. Could you explain to Mr. Mays, since apparently he doesn't believe me, that we had adjourned that meeting and had moved on and- Point of- Our order into the second meeting. Point of information. I decline, Mr. Mays. To have you- I recognize your point of information and I decline to be interrupted. Janelle? The meeting, the first meeting was adjourned at 7.30. The second meeting started at 7.30, 3, I believe. Thank you, Janelle. Have a good day. Thank you, Janelle. Thank you. I'm now going to do a short introduction. Heaven help us. Eleanor Coco Seaward is a professional registered parliamentarian. She serves as a parliamentarian for a variety of non-profit organizations. Coco is also a trainer for the Michigan Municipal League and- Point of information. What is your point of information, Mr. Mays? When you illegally remove- I recognize it, but I decline to be interrupted. When you remove me and I don't know what's happening, I didn't know you had adjourned my bad. Mr. Mays, you're out of order. Coco is also a trainer for the Michigan Municipal League and Parliamentary Procedure and the Open Meetings Act, and has served two terms as the mayor of Birmingham. She has a master's degree in dispute resolution from Wayne State University and uses those skills primarily in the area of resolving public disputes. Coco, I need to ask you a question. Are you there? Yes, I am. Can you hear me? Yes. Now, you had asked that you be allowed to go through all of the slides on your presentation before we come back to questions from Council. It is now 828. I still would like you to go through that presentation, but after that, I'm going to ask for a motion to recess this meeting where we can find a date where we can fully have the trainees since it's 828 p.m. Are you willing to do that? I am. If we are able to, last time, the reason I thank you very much, President Fields, for introducing me. The reason I had asked you that was because the slides were so slow to appear on the screen that I felt the presentation took way too long. Unless we have fixed that, that won't make a difference. Let's have the next slide. Well, we are working on that, Coco, but I would like you to just go through your slides because many pertinent things on these slides have been brought up tonight, which caused us to be three hours late for your actual training. So I would like you to go through those, and then I would like, I'll entertain a motion to recess this meeting. We'll try to find a date that's soon, that you can do it again, you can do your slides, and then we will have questions. Would that be satisfactory? Well, let's try. Mr. Herring. Thank you very much for that. I will use my own sheet of paper. The first motion is, what is dilatory? Madam President. Mr. Mays. Yeah, Madam President, just so you know, I'd like to thank Jerry, when Ricardo tremendously for merging me in. I'm attending remotely from Engum County up near Lansing, and I'm telling you, regardless of what you try to do with Coco, Council rules supersede Robert's rules, and I'm telling you, keep me on the up, Ms. Winfrey Carter, because I understand your protest. I'll keep listening. Thank you, Ms. Winfrey Carter. Mr. Mays, that was a totally unnecessary interruption. Now, Coco is going to go through her slides without any questions or interruptions. We can always do a point of information upon the order of Coco ain't immune.  I did it on purpose. Since the interest is so great in point of request for information, point of information, your own rules actually don't help the situation. I have been, by the way, I've been at the meeting since shortly after five o'clock. So I did hear all of it. And your rules actually aren't particularly helpful in for this evening because it says, and one of the council members already read it, a request for information cannot be ignored by the presiding officer, but the presiding officer upon hearing the request may decide whether the request is legitimate and can proceed or whether the speaker is misleadingly utilizing this motion to secure the floor for other purposes. I must tell you that during the entire course of the three hours, I did not hear a point of information that actually was a request for information. They were all used as debate and they were perfect examples of dilatory motions designed to let somebody interrupt and have a say about something when the other person had the floor. So I don't think- Point of order. I think we need to continue to look at your rules, but if you had proceeded- Point of order. With telling the chair what, let me finish my sentence. With telling the chair- Excuse me, Coco, Mr. Mays. You would have been denied. Mr. Mays, this is an informal meeting. Point of order. You are continuing to call points of order. What rule has been broken, Mr. Mays? Don't Coco have to admit that the chair have to hear the point of information before she can decide if it's dilatory. You can decide if dilatory motion is for somebody called a point of information, a point of order and you don't ask what is your point of order. Think about it, Coco. I'm sorry, sir. I think you were wanting to get ready to tell me what you just told me and weren't listening. My point was that I did not hear any point of information tonight, which the chair would not have denied. And once denied- Coco, now you're white, they're white. I'm asking you, do she have a right to ask what's your point of information upon the order before she really comes to speak on that? I will get to that, but my point right now, sir, is to, since the issue has been why the meeting was so delayed and why the motions were dilatory, it was because even if she had heard them, she would have denied them and the result would have been the same, which was an appeal, the ruling of the chair. Let me explain. Point of information, do you know that to be a fact? She's got to ask what's your point of order, a point of information. Do you agree with that? That's the first step. Yes, that's your rule. Excuse me, Coco. That's correct, that's correct. Talk to him, Coco. Coco, may I ask this? It's my understanding that I recognize a point of information which I did. I recognize what it is. Wait a moment, I am speaking. I am the speaker. May I? The speaker, give me a turn, give me a turn. The point is- Well, may I finish my question? Okay. It was my understanding that before I can let the person ask their question, I had to ask the person who was speaking if they would yield the floor to the question. No! That's incorrect. No, the answer is that you have to first hear the point of information and either allow it or deny it. And if you allow it- Thank you, Coco. You know. Okay, well then, I misunderstood for our previous conversations. I thought I was supposed to ask the speaker if they were willing to yield before- No! To ask the question. Mr. Mays, would you quit just yelling out? I'm making a point. I'm gonna turn the floor back over to Coco. Let's try again for the first slide. A dilatory motion, according to a dictionary definition, is a motion that intentionally causes delay, action intended to stall forward progress. Roberts' rules of order definition of dilatory is a motion that is dilatory if it seeks to obstruct the will of the body. Even without adopting a rule on it, every deliberative group has the right to protect itself from the use of dilatory motions. What are dilatory motions? A motion that is frivolous or absurd. A motion that contains no rational proposition. A motion to lay on the table, the matter for which a special meeting has been called. It is dilatory to demand the division of the assembly when the result of a vote is clear. A division is called for when a member doubts the result of a vote and wishes the vote to be taken again. I have not seen the council use division, but rather they have used point of information or point of order, and that's not correct, because the point of a division is for the chair to take the vote again, and that is usually what is wanted. Fun of information. CoCo, can you make that clear? She don't know what a dilatory motion is until the motion of the question has been stated. She's moving it out of the policy here. It's not a question. I'm sorry, sir, I'm talking now about taking the vote and taking the vote. And about hearing the question before she ruled it, I don't want to deal with that. CoCo, I am sorry to interrupt you again. You have asked to be able to go through your slides without interruption. I can do it with a point of information or no order, and it's clear that the burnout rules, you want me to do a point of information or point of order and let her talk and let you get her talk. I want to let CoCo talk the way she had requested. This is an informal- Okay, keep moving, CoCo. I'll wait in that direction. CoCo, please proceed. What I was discussing was when a vote has been taken and the chair announces the vote, if the result is not clear to the member or the member questions it, then the proper procedure is not to call point of information or point of order, but simply to say division. And the word division is a demand for the chair to take the vote again. Certainly, another dilatory motion is appealing the decision of the chair on which there cannot possibly be two reasonable opinions or moving to adjourn again and again when nothing has happened to justify renewal of such a motion. What is the duty of the chair on dilatory motions? And remember, dilatory motions are ones that stall, that seek to stop the will of the body in dealing with the issue at hand. Presiding officer has the responsibility to enforce rules relating to debate and decorum. The chair should protect the assembly from obviously dilatory motions by refusing to recognize them. That is in your rules, your adopted council rules. When the chair becomes convinced that one or more members are repeatedly using parliamentary forms for dilatory purposes, he should not recognize those members and he should rule that such motions are not in order. A dilatory use of a point of order. A member raises a point of order when he thinks the rules of the body are being violated. It is dilatory to raise a point of order or to interrupt to gain the floor, which is one that I think the council particularly needs to pay attention to because I've seen that happen over and over again. Point of order, point of information. And pardon me, but council member. Point of order, point of information. It's one or the point of order. It's the one you pick out and. I assume that's to the chair. Point of information, it is to the chair. Help her out, Coco. Because she should take what's your point of information to Coco. I've got a question for you. She should recognize that if she's a big chair. Mr. Mays, what is your point of information? Who you not in charge of Coco. As it relates to a dilatory motion, should you hear what the question is before you read on it? She's rumored that when we say point of information before she know what the question is, she's rumored that we don't want to deal with that. Well, one of your council members read this. Just a second, one of your council members read this aloud to you tonight and I just read it aloud too. That the chair has to decide whether the request is legitimate and whether the speaker is misleading this motion to secure the... And we have the right to appeal, speak on that. I'm coming to it. The presiding officer must rule with either proceed or denied. Now it's been read three times this evening. And we have... Then she had been ruling with procedure, did not speak on that. And then, well, actually I'm gonna talk about appeal coming up in the next slides. But that's when the, and I just said, when a member raises a point of order when he thinks that the rules of the body are being violated. So if the chair ruled that your point of information was denied, the opportunity would be there to rule, to appeal a decision of the chair. And that's exactly what happened tonight all the way through. So the chair did just fine because the result would have been the same even if you had stated what your point was. Or anything. That's correct. But she had a good duty to ask what's the point of information. She don't have the right to say before she hear the question. Yeah, that's all we're talking about. Look, once again, I am sorry. That's all right. You have asked repeatedly to be able to go through your presentation without being interrupted. Apparently Mr. Maze is incapable of letting you do that. Could you please go over slide seven again? Dilatory use of the point of order. A member, it is dilatory to constantly raise points of order and then appeal the decisions of the chair on the point of order. It is dilatory to use a point of order to interrupt or to gain the floor. The member must name the rule that is being violated. The chair must have ample opportunity to respond to the point of order. A point of order is not debatable. And that happened a lot this evening. A point of order is not intended to be debatable. What is debatable is when we get to the appeal if there is one. Point of information is a request for information related to the business at hand, direct to the chair or through the chair to another person. A point of information must be specific and in the form of a question. And it must relate not to what somebody said. That is debate. That is not a point of information. The prized hiding officer should make necessary rulings on questions of parliamentary law. Any two members have the right to appeal from the decision on such a ruling. By one member making the appeal and another seconding it, the question is taken from the chair and vested in the body for final decision. And I did not put it in the slide, but I would like to point out that in your rules of order, and it is number one, let me just bring it up, screen here, is exactly what the chair's supposed to say. And this is in your original rules of order. This is not my adding in anything. The chair, if an appeal is seconded, the chairman states his decision and that it has been appealed from and then states the question thus, shall the decision of the chair stand as the judgment of council? And I think that's important because it's not appropriate to say if you agree with the chair, you vote yes. If you agree with council member X, you vote no. Or any version of that. It's not the person, once appeal is made seconded and stated by the chair, it is up for consideration as you do by everyone. And it is no longer owned by the person who made the appeal. So that's why the proper phrase is, shall the decision of the chair stand as the judgment of council, which is in your rule 1.1. Members have no right to criticize a ruling of the chair unless they appeal. The motion is in order when another has the floor. An appeal is usually debatable. When debatable, the chair speaks first, each member may speak once and the chair may speak last. An appeal can only be applied to a ruling by the chair. The chair's decision on a discussion of an agenda item or issue is not subject to appeal. The announcement of a vote is not subject to appeal. And this was the point I was making before, not subject to a point of order or appeal. If a member doubts the correctness of an announced result, the member should call for a division. If an appeal is to be made, it must be made at the time of the chair's ruling. If any debate or business has intervened, it is too late to appeal. If a point of order is raised, while an appeal is pending, there is no appeal from the chair's decision on the point of order. And I think that that's an important one to know. It's one thing at a time. So if there is an appeal, a point of order is made, the chair rules, and there is an appeal on that point of order, there is no point of order on the addition, and there's no appeal on the additional point of order. An appeal is debatable except for specific times when it is not debatable. And I would like you to pay attention to this because you could have saved a great deal of time this evening because you debated some appeals that are not debatable. It is not debatable when it relates to end decorum. So if the chair has suggested that somebody is out of order by virtue of what words they used or what was said, that is appealable, but it is not debatable. It is not debatable when it relates to the rules of speaking. So on the issue of the person who spoke from the public, but that a point of order was raised, it was appealed, all of that was absolutely correct, but at that point, that appeal was not debatable. So the chair should have had the opportunity to explain the ruling and then the vote should have been taken immediately. It is not an appeal is not debatable when it is made by an undebatable question as pending. As I mentioned that when an appeal is not debatable, the chair can, prior to taking the vote, give the reasons for his decision. Interestingly enough, I also quoted the Flint City Charter in the same two sections that were mentioned earlier. A member has a right to abstain providing the member provides a reason, that is correct. It does not say that the person provides the reason at the time that they are making the abstention, because as you will notice in the next slide, the intention to abstain and the reason for the abstention is stated by the member at the time the agenda item is introduced. So I think that we should think about another way for a member, since I've noticed a number of abstentions coming up because the person thought that was their opportunity to speak against the motion. That would imply to me that the member thought they could not speak at all on the issue because they were going to abstain. So we need to find a way for the council members in their rules discussion to figure out a way to incorporate both what it says in the charter, what it currently says in their rules and what they think is the best idea to do. A member does not have the right to explain his vote during voting, which would be the same as debate at such a time. And that is a quote from the current council rules. The rules say you cannot explain your vote during the course of the voting. That is rule 9.6 of the current city council rules. Members should be for, and in civil meetings, members should refrain from using raised voices. Members must avoid personalities in discussion. It would improve your meetings terrifically if you would all refrain from ever mentioning another council member by name during the course of debate. I think that it would help you get much closer to the issues at hand and not have so much of the debate be about people. The main consideration should be the residents and the business community. Thank you, Madam President, for letting me get through all the slides. Thank you, Ms. Coco. Now, we are already past the time we had allocated for the training, but we certainly need, I certainly have many questions and need to go back because I want to make sure I am doing this correctly. And it's clear on one thing, on a point of information, I am misunderstanding, but we're not going to go into questions tonight. I would entertain a motion to recess this training until the first opportunity can be scheduled. Madam President. Mr. Griggs. So moved. Is there a second? Is there a second? I will second that. Madam President. Madam President. Is that Ms. Galloway? Yeah, you can't second. I'm sorry, I thought that I had unmuted. I'll second that. Okay. Well, we will have a discussion here quickly. Madam Parliamentarian, can the chair second a motion? It's really best not to, for the same reason that the chair doesn't make a motion because you like to feel the fairness of maintaining the dignity of the chair. And I think not making motions and not seconding it comes along that way. Okay, all right. Well, it has been... Your rules do not prohibit your seconding. So if that came to an issue, yes, you could second. I can, but it's preferable if the chair doesn't make a motion or second. That's correct. Okay, so it's been moved and seconded. Any other discussion? Hearing none, roll call, Madam Clerk. Mr. Davis. Is he muted? I'm checking, I don't see him. Mr. Guerra, Ms. Fields. Yes. Ms. Wimper Carter? Yes, yes. Mr. Griggs? Yes. Mr. Maze? Ms. Maze is on second. Ms. Maze is on second. Unmuted. Thank you, thank you. Mr. Maze, we're in the middle of a roll call vote. On award of? I'm gonna add... My on-it board got it didn't. I'm gonna add one 하 Im being muted to the councilmember. Winfrey and Miss Galloway just merged me in. We got signatures, they're propitious. Can I do a point of order? What is your point of order, Mr. Mays? My point of order is that technology-wise, Miss Winfrey kind of protested and left rightfully so. I couldn't get back in. I called Miss Galloway. I'm not gonna interfere with your vote. Where are we at? I'm just getting back in. Thank God, Miss Galloway. Mr. Mays, we're just voting on the recess of this training to the first available date to return. So will you allow me discussion? No, we're already in the vote. OK, then I'll vote no on the recess. Mr. Davis? Yes? 6S10. 6S10, this meeting is going to be recessed into the first available opportunity. I would like to thank you, Coco. And we need, and I know this is not pleasant, but we need to find a way to understand them. And the Chair, most of all, wants to understand the correct way to do this. I think I might have misunderstood one thing, but you certainly brought many things to the table in your slides. And I look forward to being able to go back over them and to discuss them. So thank you, Miss Coco, for your presentation. Thank you. I'm not going to intervene. Mr. Mays?  I'm 100% for it. And so I look forward to the training. And that's where the problem lies. So I'm telling you, Miss Fields, Councilman set supersedes robbers rules. And until you and Coco know Councilman rules that you made with Cary Nelson, Jack Repopula, and Juan Cruz, David, and Kent Kate, y'all made them to try to set me up. I'm giving them to give y'all. So if that's where we at, thank you, Miss Galloway, for letting me in. Thank you, Miss Winfrey Carter, for keeping me in. Whatever y'all vote, I'll wait 100% for Coco to come back because she understand what you don't understand. And I don't know what happened when I was gone. But I ain't got nothing to say. But she's show is messing up these Councilmen than the business of the city of print because you and others don't understand the rules. Thank you. I look forward to talking with you again. Coco, God bless you. I'll now entertain a motion to adjourn. Oh, very good. Is there a motion to adjourn? So moved. Be moved by Mr. Griggs. Is there a second? No, I'm here. Mr. Davis? A second. Be moved and seconded. Roll call vote, please. Madam President, you recessed the meeting. Oh. You're correct. We recessed it, not adjourned it. The meeting is over, Mr. Mays. We're not rescheduling the meeting. We're not rescheduling the meeting. Mr. Mays, you don't have the power to recess to take a vote of the Council. You don't have the power to call a recess. Mr. Mays, we voted on it. We voted on recess. I'm just technology. I'm trying to get caught up. Thank you, Ms. Galloway and thank you, Ms. Wimpy. I don't know what had been happening. Yes. OK, please tell us when you're ready. Thank you, Ms. Galloway for giving me back in. I'm in England County. I can't cause.


probably might sound like hyperbole to say that Streets of Rage 4 will change the face of gaming, but it's certainly a sign of things shifting within Sega. Among the many jewels of the classic era of Sega's heyday, Streets of Rage is one series that doesn't get a lot of love anymore. Once upon a time, this series was Sega's answer to Final Fight, a colourful, bombastic beat-em-up that sees players punch and kick their way through densely-packed city streets. But, as Sega's star waned at the end of the 16-bit era, Streets of Rage was one of many game franchises to be cut short, following Streets of Rage 3 in 1994, but has never been a successful revival of this once-beloved series. Until now. Suddenly, everything has changed. Sega has partnered with indie studio Lizard Cube to create an authentic sequel to the classic series. This game, instead of using pixely sprite art, instead features glorious 2D animation that really brings the characters to life. The bold change in art style remains faithful to the original games while updating them for the technology of the modern era, and it looks good. If the name Lizard Cube brings a bell, this is because this isn't the first time the studio has reimagined a classic Sega title with beautiful modern 2D animation. The team's first game, Wonder Boy, The Dragon's Trap, takes a master system game of the same name and gives it a dramatic overhaul, turning an aging classic into a modern masterpiece. If you're interested in learning more about that game's development, we did a video on the team at Lizard Cube and how they got started. It's in the description below. Streets of Rage 4, then, continues a trend that Sega seems to have almost accidentally stumbled upon. Lizard Cube remade The Dragon's Trap, and shortly after, Christian Whitehead and a bunch of other indie game enthusiasts created Sonic Mania. Now we're approaching yet another similar game, again from Lizard Cube. So is this Sega's new business strategy? Has the company decided to deal with its classic, if somewhat dusty, games by letting fans rework them into something modern? There are certainly worse things that the company could do. This kind of game remake or fan sequel building allows for greater creativity and originality than is possible when Sega's in-house team attempts to build something nostalgic. Plus, the game's cost Sega very little to make. Sonic Mania was funded by Sega, but Lizard Cube did most of the original work on The Dragon's Trap as a hobby project, without even getting official permission for a commercial launch until the title was nearing completion. Meanwhile, the fans benefit tremendously. Sega's beloved games can be resurrected by the people who care about them the most. Here's hoping that this trend continues. There's already a fan project in the works that rebuilds an ancient Alex Kidd game with modern technology. The democratizing of Sega's archive could well help to kick off a wave of newfound appreciation for older games, but otherwise don't get their due. Sega could even create a specific, organized brand for all these fan works. If they expand their scope and give more up-and-coming developers the chance to play with their toys, there could be a whole series of such titles, all under a unifying banner. This could help fans easily identify a new remake or sequel that comes from an inventive group of upstarts. Of course, Sega will have to be very careful. If this is the beginning of a new trend, and the company gives their seal of approval to additional fan projects and indie remakes or sequels, they'll have to be very selective about which studios they trust with their games. Lizard Cube and the Sonic Mania team are passionate, but they're also talented and experienced. Many of the team members involved with these projects have years of experience working in the indie gaming industry. It would only take one or two poorly received, officially licensed indie projects before the reputation of this new series of games could be undermined. Sega has traditionally been somewhat cavalier with their branding, a lot more so than their rivals Nintendo. This means that Sega will often allow weird fan projects to become official releases, as with the Dragon's Trap, but it also gives us games like Sonic, The Dark Brotherhood. If BioWare couldn't be trusted to make a decent Sega title, then the company will need to be very, very selective about which unproven indie studios they allow to take the reins. All of this aside, the idea of new games from fans, playing with official Sega licenses, is fantastic. With any luck, Streets of Rage 4 is just the beginning. It's significant that this is a sequel, rather than a straight remake. Lizard Cube is being trusted with a lot of freedom this time around, and the result is likely going to be something special. These kinds of projects merge the respectability and polish of official Sega releases with the passion and enthusiasm of fan game developers. This match made in heaven ensures that creativity and originality are bound, even in an existing franchise that's already been around for nearly three decades.  That's why Streets of Rage 4 is more than just a new installment in a classic franchise. It's also an indicator of just how much originality and flavour can be introduced to the games industry, if only big companies are willing to take a chance on the little guy.