Welcome, Aloha. Thanks for joining us at Think Tech Hawaii and a little reminder this is fundraising time of the year. We completely depend on you folks for support and subsistence and sustainability. So if you log on to Think Tech Hawaii and are so moved, all the help of any kind and any amount is greatly appreciated. As a wise man once said, the best nation is a donation. Who was that wise man, Chuck? Today we're going to explore what have we seen so far in 2023 that may give us some idea of what we're looking at coming up in 2024, a big election year. Okay, and we have with us today the Professor Emeritus from the University of Dayton School of Law, visiting professor at Washington and Lee School of Law and French Order of the Golden Palm awardee, Ben Davis, and former chair of the American Bar Association section of dispute resolution. So Ben has worn many hats in his years. Some of them apparently took with him some of his hairline, but he still has nothing left to be able to brag about. We also have with us Tim Avichella and Tim is moving toward dual citizenship. The great theory that Mark Twain and others have reminded us always leave yourself an exit if you need one. Hopefully we won't. So today we're going to explore what have we seen so far in 2023 that gives us any idea of what might be out there in 2024 and the way of choices and directions. Ben, you want to start us off? What have you seen so far? So, well, I'll maybe speak about a couple things. First is, so I had COVID at a super spreader event last last Sunday a week ago by 50th reunion where apparently 12 people have gotten COVID. So I think we should keep in mind that COVID is still around. And so if you're not vaccinated or not boosted or get there, and that packs over is what I took on the Monday and by Friday I went negative. This stuff was magical. So I think our friend COVID in its various mutations, something that's going to be around and how the CDC deals with it and copes with it, I think will be something that will be in the air, so to speak, for this period that's coming up. The second thing that I was going to speak about is, again, it's hard to predict, but I've been kind of involved last couple of three weeks with some developments in Ohio where there's been an effort to put in place what I call miseducation bills, which are trying to basically create these indoctrination centers at the university where you teach that in right wing ideology. And also BAN DEI, there's also a, you know, there's going to be a high constitutional method on the ballot in November. And so the Ohio legislature has passed a rule that it has to pass not by majority like it's been for 100 years, but by 60% to be adopted. And that's going up for being considered at a special election. The reason I'm saying about all this stuff in Ohio is I'm noticing a distinct mobilization going on by people against these things, opposing these things in the Ohio legislature, you know, civil society type people and things like that. And I just find that kind of interesting because people have been sitting for a long time, Ohio is kind of a red state, right? But my sense is that, well, it may not be as red as people thought it was when it comes for this next 2024 period. And so that's the thing that I'm kind of looking at is an interesting development. So those would be the two things I'd point out. Thanks, Ben.  But there's a wave of resistance. So you have apparently left some successors that are still fighting the good fight. And also for reminding us that there's a lot of toxic stuff out there, including COVID. So exercise, wisdom, judgment, discretion, and restraint. And when it's appropriate, if you're on a long flight or you're in an enclosed area in close quarters with people for an extended period, use your head, use your mask. Yeah, absolutely. A small price to pay for as much as people may be belittled for what has apparently proven to be some measure of mitigation. Yeah. So what have you seen so far in 2023 that it gives you some sense of what might be out there for 2024 and where it might go? Well, being defined as somewhat cynical, I see hope. What I saw in 2023 was hope. And what was that hope? I saw some diminishment of Donald Trump's influence and power, certainly from last year's midterm elections, but more so what recently occurred in the negotiations on the debt ceiling limit between Kevin McCarthy and Joe Biden. If you recall, Kevin McCarthy was nothing more than a lap dog for Donald Trump. Whatever Trump caught him about, Kevin McCarthy was there to follow his instructions to the tee. That didn't happen here in these negotiations. We heard on the CNN town hall meeting that Donald Trump thought that United States should default on its debt, a cataclysmic event that would occur and forever change our economy and probably part of the world's economy. That didn't happen because Kevin McCarthy, in this case, Speaker of the House, was his own boss. He wasn't following strict orders from Donald Trump and look what they came up with. They came up with a solution. It appears we will not default on the debt. And I applaud Kevin McCarthy, which I can't imagine doing. So I saw hope that occurred this year. And I think we'll continue to see the diminishment of influence that Donald Trump thinks he owns and will continue to try to pull off, but I think his best days are over. Well, and we have the advent of Chris Christie into the Republican presidential candidacies. And that's certainly not going to provide a voice that has anything particularly good to say about the former president. Well, Christie is no wallflower. I expect a mix up in 2024 and a fairly energetic one at that. That would be an interesting debate. Oh, it'll happen beyond the debates. It'll be several news headlines. Christie says this. Trump responds. It's going to go back and forth. It's perfect for the media. They love that kind of stuff. Yeah. Just to jump on that, I thought I saw something really interesting with Ron DeSantis being called out about some school board down in Florida that was banning or maybe making only available to certain age kids. This poem done by the poet who spoke at the inauguration, right? Amanda Gorman, right? Amanda Gorman, right? So this young poet, like 23, right, who I think is from Florida. And she had the best line I ever saw. I said, it's amazing that one family, who turns out to be kind of associated with the oath keepers, by the way, can get my poem banned, but this entire country can't get guns banned, you know, to protect kids.  Wasn't me. Hey, man, wait a minute, didn't you pass the law? Wasn't me. Why don't you talk an anti-wolf?  I thought that was a nice, beautiful moment in Iowa to see the guy having, you know, payback that's happened. If I may, Ben, I couldn't agree with you more. You know, isn't it odd that DeSantis, very early on, especially before he announced, got what we would call in the Pacific Northwest, the Seattle area, his nose got a little ahead of his ski tips. And I don't know if he knows how to rein that back. I don't know if it's in his personality to rein back his distinct aspects of his personality.  Yeah, I just think he's too young. I mean, he's 44, and he doesn't have enough experience behind him to be able to handle the entire country. I mean, he's got a very friendly legislature down there in Ohio, and sorry, in Florida that could do as big, but in the rough and tumble that's DC, where I think the old joke was, you want a friend in DC, get a dog, you know, that, you know, his game is going to be much, much harder, much, much harder. And so yeah, I think that he's, yeah, he's over skis, and it's good for him, because, you know, with the stuff that he passed, like the six week abortion ban thing, which is actually just an abortion ban, since a lot of women don't even know they're pregnant six weeks.  I mean, I'd be happy for him to really get caught by a lot of comments and questions, and I have to hope, however, that the actual reporters are willing to play that hard game, because it seems like a lot of times the reporters are not as tough as I think I used to remember some of them being back when the Nixon days and things like that, you know, it's like that access, access reporting where you get access to somebody. So you kind of do a softball interview with them. Like, I saw this guy from CNBC do an interview with Elon Musk, and he looked like he was starstruck because he's with the, you know, the richest man in the world. You know, hey, so what? The richest man in the world can still be a bonehead, you know. Well, I think you've hit a spot on with the media and it's reporting where it's lacked thereof. Yeah, I've got the golden ticket for the interview, to be in the ring to ask questions. So I better softball the questions or I won't be invited back. And that's a huge deterrent for good journalism. Yeah. And the question is, how do we get rid of the invitation for journalists to attend?     It looked horribly orchestrated as far as those who were in the audience, and certainly wasn't a bright day for CNN. Yet, although I was highly critical of the town meeting, it has turned out that Donald Trump in many ways self-incriminated himself, and that may well come against him when it comes to Mr. Smith's desire to indict him for the document issues. Yeah, yeah. So that gets me to another thing about these investigations that go on in the Department of Justice. You know, there's an old phrase I learned from some military people, which was along the lines of different spanks for different ranks, right? You know, there's another version of that, which is manure, but it's not the word manure, it goes downhill, okay? And so when you're down, so the way it kind of plays out is that if something happens, it's like misfeasance at the bottom, no, malfeasance at the bottom, misfeasance at the top. I made a mistake, or mistakes were made, they wouldn't even admit that they made the mistake, or just mistakes were made. And so when you get these hopes up about a Department of Justice actual prosecution, you know, because the investigation seems terribly obvious.  Or is Merrick Garland really going to be the one who's going to okay Jack Smith going ahead? Or is it going to be that thing where somehow it doesn't happen? I mean, I saw during the torture stuff, right? All during that, that the Attorney General did everything, whether it was Mukasey or whatever the other one was, to avoid going up the chain of command. You know, he had those soldiers that Abu Ghraib, that court marshal, right? He had their, their general got administratively reduced to a colonel. Okay. But all the people put in place the 54 country torture regime, the CIA type, all that stuff. Not one of them ultimately got prosecuted, even though there are a lot of investigations that happen, you know. And so that's the thing that worries me, is that we hear a lot of noise. And maybe it's true or not, that Jack Smith has the good, especially on the documents thing. I mean, my goodness, that's like, looks like a slam dunk to me. But, you know, you got the January 6th, in low level, both malfeasance, they're getting prosecuted, they're going to jail, even this guy from Oath Keepers got 18 years, right?  But once you start to go to the quote, the suits above, you know, you see, all of a sudden, it, you know, the delay, delay, delay, you know, now, one trip, one thing that's interesting right now is that you have the prosecution and state court in New York, that's going on, on those, on those campaign finance felonies, 34 felonies and all that. And then that's interesting. Trump's people have just tried to get it removed from state court to federal court. And this is basically an old game where you, when a state prosecutor goes after sort of a current or federal official, they try to get it removed to federal court because the federal court take a look to see whether this was within their official duties. And then the federal court concludes it's within its official duties to basically kill the criminal investigation. And that's the game that Trump is trying to play there to say that everything he was doing was within his official duties. So therefore, you know, federal court watched the state criminal complaint. There is the battle about that that's going to go on and that federal court will see how that plays. But then the other one is looking down at Georgia, right? There's the state prosecutor in Bolton County there. And then, you know, they get in place, this commission from the governor that's supposed to be able to remove prosecutors, you know, I'm like, the game, you know, the moving pieces in these games sometimes are so twisted. It's kind of appalling. So, you know, you hope that there'll be some accountability, really meaningful accountability for all these people that do all this awful stuff. But I just don't know. I just don't know, you know, if we're capable of really doing that, you know. Well, what I find interesting is, you know, we've witnessed for the last five years, the slow march, very slow march, on some cases, accelerated march to autocracy in our, in our form of government by our leader, leader and his staff. The question is, yeah, that was looked like it was happening on a federal level, but very quietly, very slowly, we're seeing autocracy being implemented on the state level. And certainly things that would look very much like an autocracy or a fascist state that happened in Florida about banning books and what, what will not be tolerated in schools, words you can't say, and a host of things. So the cynic part of me starts to come out again that takes notice of this and says, how do we reverse this? How do we get back to where it's out of favor? It's out of fashion to be a good old fashioned fascist. And I don't think we're there yet. And Chuck, you know, maybe this is where media comes in for 2024 is, I hate to say, but it's the scarlet letter thing. It's, it's the, the shame designation that one should own and where when they're acting like little fascists. Okay. Well, and we'll see whether media steps up or not. Yeah. It might be too hard by using that word, by the way, am I, am I exaggerating what I'm, I'm sensing in the last five years? No, I think you're exactly right. And the thing that's really bothered me is the acquiescence of people to this, you know, it's like the go along to get along mentality that, well, you know, whoever the boss is, you know, is saying this is the way to go. And so, okay, I'm going to go with what the boss says, you know, you know, and, and this kind of false security I think people have that think the strong man, the magical strong person is going to, you know, solve all their problems.  I mean, really. But, you know, this kind of fascinating, I would say another thing is that, you know, we have the cult of money in the United States, which is that if you're making a lot of money or you're so-called billionaire, you know, you're supposed to be quote unquote smarter than all the rest of us and they must know something and all that stuff. And so I think he gets a certain amount of credibility as do others like Elon Musk and all that, because they're on a pile of money, right? But as in terms of actually running a country, you know, I got to give some credit to Joe Biden for the efforts that have been put into go towards the middle class, go towards the working class, get money in their pockets. You know, I saw a number recently where it's like unemployment rate was 3.5% or something. I was like, shock, that's a number I haven't seen since the 60s, I think. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember those kind of numbers from unemployment. And I was like, that's amazing, you know, and there's pressure for wages to rise. I said, that's great. On the other hand, you know, in this kind of Democrat, Republican kind of donor class protection, you know, apparently 40% of the inflation happening is because of price gouging, basically, where companies have said to their shareholders, because you can't lie on those shared older calls. The shareholder calls, they don't fight.   We've got price power, exercising to increase our profit mark, you know. And there's no real strong, sort of, I don't know if it's antitrust or FTC or even state level calling out that, you know, to really cause those people in the C-suite to kind of think twice about that increase, you know. So, I don't know. I don't know. I'd like to ask you something.  And I guess, from an education standpoint, do you think that is a direct result of our lack of teaching civics early on and throughout junior high and high school that the amount of ignorance that Americans have about their own government, how it works, how it should work, how it was formed in the first place. What were the ideas that formed this government? Do you think we've lost that? And that's why they, to quote Joni Mitchell in Yellow Taxi, you don't know what it's gone until it's gone. Right, right, you know. So, they don't know what they're, they don't know what democracy really is, so they don't know when it's going away. Yeah, no, I, you know, when you think about the diversification of education in this country, right, there's the public schools, then there's the chartered schools, then there's the private school, and then there's the homeschooling, you know, that are these different parts, I don't know what the percentages are of each of them. But, you know, it's an interesting mix. And then the question is, what is the content of what's being taught in each of those? Like, you know, there was social studies that maybe kind of took on the role of civics, but then as there's been kind of this dumbing down thing going on in terms of the educational system. That's been one of the words I had about what was going on in Ohio, because it was not only dumbing down, but it was actually trying to indoctrinate with one view of everything that's there. You know, I don't know if you remember when you were kid in school, they said that, you know, was it George Washington could never lie?  You know, that I remember that kind of stuff. I cannot tell a lie. Right, right. You know, being the gospel that I learned, and I hope that by today, you know, we would have figured out, well, actually, you know, it's a little more complicated than that. But I'd say, you know, the level of the student varies, right? You know, but what I'm trying to say is that we get a sense of the richness, the complexity of it. You know, that's one of the things, like one of the things that I learned down here in Virginia, I went out to James Madison's plantation, right? And they had a tour. And they told me that in 1824, the market of Lafayette was kind of doing his grand tour around the country. You know, remember the good old days of the revolution, right? So he goes to James Madison's place. He proceeds to castigate Madison for not having friends and slave people. You know, that's not something I just learned that a year ago, or you know, that would have been an interesting part of the market of Lafayette's story that I thought would have been give some, you know, some some aspects of what's going on, you know. Well, that you've hit it right there is, you know, shining a light on a history that none of us were taught now is woke, and now has been associated with a negative connotation of liberal. So anything liberal, woke or Democrat, is all in the same basket. Therefore, don't shine a light on anything that might make us look bad. Right. And that's where the comment made that, you know, if you can't deal with your bad history as a country, you have a problem. You know, one of the things that I heard about in the late early sixties or so, for example, in Germany, you had all these kids who were teenagers who are asking their parents, what did you do during the war? Because the parents have been silent about what they've done under the Nazis. And it created this huge shock in Germany of student rebellion and all that because these kids all learn, you know, their parents were supporting Hitler back in the day. And it was like, you know, contradiction in their head.  This is how bad we can be. But this is how good we can be, too, you know, that kind of thing. But I don't know, you know, it's, yeah, I find that they're, you know. Is there a solution to 2024? Well, you know, it's like, you know, that's the thing about the, for the American dream, you have to be sleeping, right? You know what I mean? I mean, that's, that's, I've heard that comment.   I mean, we're good. It's amazing. Like, I just saw something where they were saying that, you know, that Brian Sicknick, who was killed in the Capitol ride, you know, these folks on the right are saying that he was actually killed by the DC police. You know what I mean? I mean, I said, come on, man. I mean, really, really people? Yeah, you're going to throw that stuff out there. It's insane. Anyway, straight and eternal. Before we leave, I've got to say that the quote of the day is, you don't have to be woke. You just have to be awake. That's the quote of the day, Ben. I appreciate that. That's just random coming out of where. Who knows, you know? Good place. In our last minute, any last thoughts you want to leave us with, Ben? I would just say that I want to encourage people to be active in whatever way that you can. It might be if there's some legislation to testify, it might be going out and demonstrating like with the poor people's campaign when they do something. I don't know what it might be sending 10 bucks to somebody. I don't know what it is, but just don't sit back because they're people working real hard, especially very rich donors, to keep their sinicure. If you want this place to be the kind of America that you've always hoped it would be in the 21st century, you've got to fight for it a little bit. Jim, any last thoughts? Yeah, last thought is, as we come to a 2024, we're going to have an election next year. Let's remind ourselves, be it Gen Z, be it millennials, be it baby boom, baby bust generations, let's remind ourselves what it took to make this country a great country, and that is its government of democracy. And though we change parties, we do so with the freedom to say goodbye. You've served your term. You're done, rather than captivating the office for years and years to come, or would be hopeful to capture the office for years to come. And I would write to everybody of how we got here with the form of government that we have, and I wish people would pay more attention to that. Ben, Tim, thank you so much, and thank all of you for joining us on Think Tech Hawaii, and for reminding us the message is stand up, speak up, speak up. Another great quote. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at ThinkTechHawaii.com. Mahalo.


Ladies and gentlemen and welcome back to full metal alchemist brotherhood. My name is Jack the buzz. You can call me I should be today. We have the adults way of life now last episode was the end of envy basically We saw in these kind of turnaround in life The realization that envy kind of was envious of what humans are and how they feel and everything and it was very emotional episode We also saw the climax of the fight between the Armstrong brother and sister against sloth and it appeared the Alex Kind of popped off and really locked down sloth. I believe that fights over But I'm not sure yet Who knows what sloth anymore and then the episode ended with how when I'm slowly walking up and can fronting the father So I'm guessing we're gonna get some of that in this episode guys. I'm excited to get into it Amaze He's never lost At least he's light-hearted about it The lieutenant had already talked to me down by the time you even showed up. Okay, just slash quiet She can be okay It is impactful that scar said something no if that means anything to you and being who he is He's different now it was you I I'm worried for scar because this character development if he dies I feel like it wouldn't even be inappropriate because he's lived this life and Become a whole new person her. Thank you impacts him that much Maybe he also sees like Winnery in Hawkeye. Hawkeye looks a little bit like Winnery, but maybe that's why he was kind of shuttered, too That's enough It's over, baby Obliterated Hey, oh, and of course they showed up as the end of the last one as well Everybody's on the same page. I'm loving it. It's feeling like like it's going way too well honestly She's like Blood He's so cool Bradley's not even Yeah, cuz now this is operations. Oh, is he in the voices? This is Salim. Oh, I thought it was like turned around It's like nope More God, it's so ominous I guess it was an army is so me that humans As promised This is what your masters wanted for all of you men tell it to him.  Well, I like the shading there Oh They're actually taking a stand for something even after they said this was their fight She's not one to run They're not going to Don't tell me Alex dies. Oh my god She's cracked. Oh my god. Oh, yes, just know her He asked me to come and help you So he stayed behind I'm surprised he didn't come to Did he fight whatever greed initially? I love the single greatest Game show but it legitimately feels like a crossover every time like these characters meet and fight together. It's so cool God dang dude Now what oh? They got him got his nose is so oddly shaped now. What do they have to do dog? Well, they got Did it stab through his philosopher stone? Oh, it must have Hang dude man the sins are dropping one by one man. Yeah, I guess it's stabbed through the philosopher stone He's okay. He's all good. I take a breath after that. I Like just the respect between the two. It's so nice Also, I love how they came out of the fist like that like it was just like a door God dang the Armstrong's man. What a family She gets her that she trained and now with skills like yours. I'm surprised. I haven't heard of you my skills I'm a housewife. I did alchemist nothing more. You have met the Elric brothers, haven't you? There you go They're like family to me wait.  I imagine they are oh my god everybody together to the Avengers Perhaps we should take care of the rest of these dummies. It's twinkle. Tell me the truth.  Hold on a second. Yeah, she don't care Now that's rich. We adults very well can't be caught lounging about while the youngsters who are fighting for She's like my god.  We'd like to help we'd appreciate together the two of you seem almost invincible I wouldn't try to build us up too much. Apparently. I'm one of the ones.  I guess it's humbling Yeah, I mean why would she even go near? I mean, I just like don't see this going very well for the father right now His troops are falling this is quite the reunion. This is what he's not gonna go near You're so much less fun than you used to be it makes me nervous Loss green sloth gluttony envy wrath pride Those are the seven deadly sins of man. I'm any left either Anyone of those will ruin a person you must understand them all to understand humanity. Otherwise your knowledge remains incomplete Why would you sever them from yourself? This is not a true human doesn't want to be Careful this is so extra. Oh my god Why is he expecting him to this is his enemy. Oh, what time stop taking I like how casual he is about it Oh My man, let him talk have some honor the dragon Asking the good questions though back when you were an arrogant speck of glass you used to stop at the very notions of community Actually kind of true. Yeah Humans Invious very similar he had to nail on the head. That's why he took his form to Oh Thanks, man Is he holding back until the transmutation circle is activated? I would make more sense wouldn't it? This philosopher stone There is no part of me that wishes to lower myself to their level instead I shall become a far more perfect me. There is a philosopher stone buried within you Oh, I intend to take it. He is the philosopher stone. Oh Oh, I'm dog. Oh my god. He said combat wasn't Thank you. I was about to say my god. That's way too easy Yeah, actually he doesn't say anything till now you don't realize you have cast aside something every bit as important as your emotions This humanity so important don't expect to win this battle easily not when you're fighting us Give it up. It's Tires definitely stuck. Oh my If we don't are you serious? I'll just take care of the car already. No way Mr. Heinkel and I can handle this on our own Well, I'm sure you can but oh my god. Fine. That's Bradley. That's Bradley. That's his sword They're just gonna do me like that. Oh my god. Okay. He's staying behind so I just kill more of those These mannequins are taking out so many central soldiers. They're doing most of our job for us Every time I see a shot of central like that take the main gate. Also this garden is so extra I never even pointed that out ever since episode one. I was like that's a lot of like unnecessary space You could be using that verse way more. He said no fair dog weapons don't work or guns don't work Someone save that man.  Oh my man, you have been led very astray I'll save them cycle of pain does not necessarily continue shows some humanity used wind style Join my security detail my guy No, that wasn't a okay that definitely wasn't her walking because Alex would have been with her And that wasn't her blade her blade is engraved. That was definitely Bradley Over the command here, sir. I don't know why anyone would sit there and make themselves such an easy target. Let's go, right? I love how she's back with her troops It's kind of where it goes. That's the official Soldiers came for the case the passageway might link up underground.  There was little resistance and fewer injured. Yes, sir The main entrance what can you're popping up, baby? My man not to open the gates until every last one of those mannequin soldiers has been done away This is going way too. Well also Salim's bound to make it there soon. They win Yeah There's like eight or nine episodes left my man What's died yet either like I mean like major characters relatively safe to especially since a lot of them are together He's a mobile phone I mean he's just kind of casual machine gun he's walking down the street is he walking up there he is.  He's a grenade. That's a grenade in it. I'm pretty sure He's gonna retake his castle god dude such a good villain to like his entire character line Just makes me just a sheer power. I don't know every single scene We've seen him from how fast he moves and just I came and describe it How good of a villain Bradley is and the fact like this show what it does really well is many different threads It's not like oh, yeah, we took out we took out the bad guy We win, you know, it's like okay. They took down, you know envy well pride's on his way pride Just ate one of the other villains Bradley. We thought was dead. I didn't really think he was dead But Bradley they thought was dead. He's just walking up the father has still has to be worried about like the biggest boss of them All that's playing everything.  It's incredible Oh my god, they finally took down slot and now it just feels like everybody's really coming together for this finale And I'm excited to see guys that has been I believe the adults way of life I hope you guys enjoyed be sure to drop your comments down below. We thought the episode we thought my reaction is always I hope you guys have a wonderful rest of the day as per usual not catching on the next one his face


Welcome to documentation office hours. It's the 20th of January 2022. We abide by the Jenkins code of conduct. Thanks for being here. So today's agenda items I've got, we have news the weekly change log and weekly release which has some special cases going on for it. Open PRs. The contribute on next steps and improve a plugin tutorial are all possible topics any other topics that we want to add to the list. That looks good to me. All right, so. I see now thanks for joining. I see now. So, in terms of end of Java eight end of life, I've set the goal to have the. Jenkins enhancement proposal drafted and ready to go before the next meeting of the platform sync group, which is next Friday. I may ask for review help at Monday's docs office hours and it next Thursday's docs office arrows I'll let you know. I assume you're all willing to read it and comment. Even if only on whatever aspects are comfortable for you. Absolutely. And Internet Explorer end of life we're not going to use a Jenkins enhancement proposal for it. We'll just plan to drop support from weekly in the next two to three weeks. And then it will be the removal of support will be visible in the June LTS. So if you're using Internet Explorer 11 on Windows, please switch to Microsoft Edge. If you don't have Microsoft Edge, please switch to a different operating system so that you can get a web browser. Use use a modern web browser weekly changelog the weekly release this week has been delayed. I'm going to move to a repository outage. Now the, we've got a failing test that is further delaying the release, the release team is working on an infrastructure team is working on it now. So Jenkins 2.331 is still coming is still arriving it's not yet arrived. So let's move on to the next topic then open PR is this is the fun one. All right, so. Meg, any order you would like us to attack these. Can I add a topic. Sure. Get pod. So, I and Elizabeth, we're able to success successfully set it up. And beauty Jenkins projects. That's great. Yeah, so I just wanted to mention a couple of things that I noticed while setting it up. So, this is not compulsory, but to be able to get the green gift pod icon that we saw while your mark was presenting. I had to install a gift pod browser extension. I'm not sure what to do that. Sorry. Oh, that's great. Don't let the baby's making the baby's noise is not a problem. Keep going. Yeah, sorry about that. So, it's not compulsory. So what the, what the extension does is I'm normally for you to be able to access your workspace what you put those is that it adds. Your normal github URL with a github URL. So, for instance, you have something like HTTPS. I think github.io slash ash, then followed by the github URL. So what that button does is that it just does that for you and opens your workspace in the new browser tab. It does. So it's not compulsory that you have that but for ease of use, you can add browser extension that adds that button for you so it does it automatically. I think there is another alternative to adding the to adding the browser extension but I didn't go that route because it looked much longer. So I haven't tested that. Then another thing is if you want to run the Jenkins project, you have to ensure that your fork is updated. Because I think one mistake I made before while I when I started using github was I didn't pull the recent changes from Jenkins master. So when I tried to do make one I was having some errors I think probably because the github file that wasn't on my own branch or my own fork. So, but after I pulled the changes from upstream, everything worked perfectly. And then the last thing is for you to be able to push changes and pull changes, you need to grant github the necessary permissions on the settings page for you to be able to push or pull changes using your workspace on github. So, yeah, I think for now. Those are the three things I've noticed up to the point I haven't yet done any changes or done any work or open the pull request. So maybe I'm a notice or that things. So yeah, that's that's it. Excellent. Thank you, Zina. That's great. Okay, so the way I interpreted then the get pod button turned out to not be required. But it is crucial that you update your fork from the upstream. So that that magical button and I need to go check that mine is this one is the one I'm used to using where I go get get hub and then I look at Jenkins.io come on, come on. Here we go. Not Jenkins bugs but that's close enough Jenkins.io. And then I click the button here that says fetch upstream and it will tell me oh and one behind so then I click that button and now it's up to date. Yep. Excellent. Okay, and there are command line ways to do that as well but that UI way is easy enough. Okay, so and and when you did that you said make run was then passing for you when it had been failing before. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Excellent. Great. Very, very good. Thank you. Okay. Now on this one. I'm not sure I understand the get pod permission. So when you say the settings pages that my settings like here. Yeah, on this on this board. On get pod settings. Yes. Okay, so my settings here. And settings pages right there. Yeah, so integrations. Yeah, get hub. Okay, and this was the thing that was important. Yeah. Okay, so you have to do this for you to be able to push any changes or to push any changes to your fork otherwise you just have read permissions. Interesting. Okay, thank you. And, and now that did not. Yeah, so in this case, I at least I granted it only public repository permissions. So it can't even see my private repositories and I wanted that because my private repositories maybe sensitive. Okay, good. Excellent. Anything else you wanted to share on the get pod experience. No, nothing else. Okay. So I'm going to see the video on community Jenkins.io. And I need to paste that just to be sure that we've got a reference to it. Okay. It is using get pod.io for faster development this way. Okay. Excellent. Thank you very much, Elizabeth. Thank you very much. See now both of you glad that you're able to make it work. That's great. Yeah, but otherwise it, it was really great because I think I was able to set it open like less than 15 minutes. Yeah, it didn't take so much time. Yeah, it didn't take so much time it was really easy to figure out so I think it's great. Elizabeth in particular, I assume you may be in an area where internet performance may not be as fast as it is for Zenab in the UK where she's at, was your perception that it performs reasonably did it feel fast enough for you. Yes, it did actually. It felt faster for me because I changed my internet plan yesterday after that account I had during the last call so I had to change it to something else. So it's better now, it's better. Very good. All right, so that's that's because one of one of the worries for me for the contributon is is not everyone who's in the contributon may have reliable internet all the time. But but it sounds like web browsing was comfortable for you and and doing development over the browser worked well enough. Very good. Very good. All right, excellent. Thank you. So then we may we may want to continue that I wonder now let me make a note to myself. Should we consider the developer video series that uses get pod as pre work pre study for she code Africa contributon participants. So we've got a we've got a video series that includes doing many operations, even on get plug on Jenkins plugins not just on the Jenkins doc site using get pod and so it uses get pod in many other ways to do development without requiring a local installation. Good. Okay. Let's open question then. Excellent. Thank you. So about PRS. Okay. This is about issues anyway issue I saw a good so I was trying to kind of like test out, you know, working on opening a PR using keep pod so I saw an issue on Jenkins.io that I wanted to ask about because I wasn't really sure. The full details of the issue I wanted to work on it. Shall we look at it. Yes, please. Okay, so let's go to one I saw that nobody had picked up the only good first issue I saw that nobody had picked up. Okay. So you're looking for a good first issue. Yes. All right. So, yeah, the second one. Oh, good. Okay. Yeah. All right. And so your question probably this one I'm, I'm a little fearful that making it a good first issue may have been misleading but let's, let's take a look at it together and do some quick review of what needs to happen here. Yeah. Okay, so, so first, this says the Jenkins wiki was made read only in October 2019 that is absolutely correct. It should probably be extended to say the Jenkins wiki was, and I'm going to open up the tab to show the page the Jenkins wiki server was attacked in September of 2021. The attack did enough damage to it that we decided not to bring it back online. See if I can find that where is it September. Ah, here it is project. The Confluence instance was attacked so in addition to now today it says hey it was read only in 2019. Now, because of this attack it's just a static website. It's not even a Confluence server at all. Okay. So update so you're what you're thinking to do is update the wiki conversion docs and, and this is a great one to do because it very much needs to be done so the wiki attacked in 2021. And the attack. We couldn't be confident that it was not somehow damaged so we never brought it back online it's now back as back as a static as static web pages. All right so so that's the early and now, whoops, now migrating from wiki to GitHub. No longer requires so document migration, this portion of. Let's see how to let's talk through this okay. Yes, this is plug in documentation. Yeah plug in wiki pages okay. So for plug in wiki pages. It's changed dramatically now in that there is a plug in site. plug in stash. There it is. Where the translation has already been performed. So, so what's happened here is the old instructions said things like hey, run this with Jenkins wiki exporter, and let it do the translation for you will this entire step. The manual equivalent, no longer needed, because the translation of every plug in wiki page has been done and is now stored on this, this GitHub repository. Okay. So we can delete these two sections completely, because they don't make any sense we just grab the changes from from this already translated file so let's let's talk through it so then the conversion of plug in pages is already started. Rather than finished. Because there's inevitably changes that are needed in order to make it make it all the way to done. Okay, so for example let's let's pick a plug in that we might let's see what's one that the easy way to find a plug in to translate is still through the Jenkins wiki exporter service. What we do here is we click the progress link, and it will tell us a list of plugins that have not yet been translated. So as we scroll down here. Okay and PR merge there's not anything that we can do as writers. Here we go the ansible plug in. And unfortunately what we're going to see is that the whole request submitted proposing to fix its documentation, because I submitted it. So, so we keep looking down groovy post build is the next one on the list so let's look at it. And so what I did was I opened. I opened the web page for from this hyperlink, it takes me to this page and then I go to this GitHub link. And now we see here. Okay, there is no me file. So there's, there's definitely no documentation for it. So now where do we find the documentation for the groovy post build plugin. If we take that text and go over here to the GitHub repository. It has the translated repository goes in a directory like that. So here is the existing groovy post build plugin translated already into markdown. What you what the goal then is to take this already and put it in the read me in a read me filing. Exactly. So, including the pictures, including everything so so it's all there. And then the activity is convert from this format where what you see is a read me md and a doc slash images directory. It needs to be converted and copied into the destination plug in wiki page. Did you say converted. Yeah converted is the wrong way copied is a better word isn't okay okay because there's there's no conversion to be done as far as I can tell it's this markdown file is ready to be placed there now you may find as you read it that there are some errors that should be corrected or you may find spelling errors you may find places where, for instance, this thing should probably be in a source code font. Now those kinds of things you could do or choose not to do, but, but this is already an excellent start so you don't have to.  Okay, so now the process of the wiki migration would be okay from the wiki exporter check, you know, what's if the documentation has been moved or not, right. So if it has not. If it has not click okay you click on it go to the GitHub page check if there is document there's a read me file with the documentation, if not, then you go to the repository we just seen we just saw now what's what's the title of the repository. And wiki docs to search for that plugin. Once you find it, you copy the documentation in the read me dot a read me file there and the images and move it to the plugin to the plugin repository, if I'm correct. That's correct. So that's what we are replacing the documentation in that page weeks right now. That's correct right exactly. Okay, okay, okay. And now this is one I would, I would think that make me guide us here and say, Hey, you know what the images could also be check that the images are reasonably current. The reason I say that is UI changes have happened. Okay, but more UI changes are happening in in March 2022 LTS reviews so worrying too much about this is maybe premature just be aware if the if the images have words like Hudson in them. Okay, that's a really old image. If the event if it isn't super old then you probably just leave it and we wait until the, the latest UI changes are out. All right. Great. Excellent. Okay. Okay. Elizabeth you had warned that you might need to drop off. Hopefully did we meet the needs that you had. Thank you. I was just going to join with my second device. Well, I'll be here too. And you are you are perfectly welcome to go to your business meeting or your team other meeting that's, you can look at the recording later this will be available as a recording as well. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks for joining us. All right. Bye. So, Z enough anything else on the. Okay, great. Yeah. All right. So, if you could assign that to me, or is there a way I can do it myself. I don't think you can but since you're working on it. Let's assign you. Let's see. No. Exactly. Got it. Oops. Okay, so just a minute. I have to. I need to mention you first. Wants to work on this. And the way you do that is you just say in a comment, Hey, I want to work on it, but now it will allow me to. No, maybe not. You may have to, you may have to mention in a comment there, if you'll just put a comment on that issue, issue, then I'll see if I can assign it. No. And while we're here, I'm going to put a link. Put this material in there. In hopes it helps. No, that's not right. It's got about hash marks. Right. Remember. There we go. Okay. And Z now I don't see a comment from you yet. Yeah, I'm trying to sign in. Ah, okay, got it. With kitchen code and all those. Welcome to two factor authentication. Congratulations. We have made sure that you are you because you both know something and have something. Trying to find the issue. Yes. Okay. Oh, like. I've dropped the comments. Oh, good. Very good. All right, so let me go find it. And it was where issues. Oh, we said it was good first issue. So there it is. And let's assign. There we go. Okay. It's all yours. All right. Thank you. Thanks for being willing. Look forward to it. Okay. Onward to open PRs. Meg, you ready. You can hear me better that way. We want to do these or do we want to move on to a she code Africa. Or. Planning while everybody's here. Good question. So I still have not published. I have not published the list of ideas we gathered from, from the last time. And so I'm going to do that. If there are additional ideas, people have, we can certainly capture them. Cause this was from the meeting that Zainab was not in, right? No, I think actually, well, let's, let's test it. Zeno. Would you be okay if we spend a few minutes on she code Africa contribute on. Okay. So here's, here's, we had a session on Monday and talked about possible ideas. For projects. So inclusive naming, correcting the words master slave, whitelist, blacklist. That one you had already confirmed and pipeline help. We tried last year and not a big deal. Test automation. I think I had discussed that with you and you thought that would be okay. We've gone through, we've gone through all this and the last meeting. Okay. So the others, the others you'd seen like multiple tutorials, those you'd seen, we've discussed before and you thought they were okay. Yes. Okay. Good. All right. Okay. So then, then I think we covered the, the she code Africa topic and we're back to open PRs. Okay. Do you want one that's a master? Do you want one that's cleaner? One that I just did this week. Okay. So let's take the clean, one of the cleaner ones. Okay. Go to open PRs and you'll. Okay. I started to do something quick and I slipped into a rabbit hole and I think I'm trying to slip back out because this is in your. Sorry, I'm going to have to drop off now and also. No problems, you know, thank you. We're going to go ahead and do PR review again. Thank you for being here. All right. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Wonderful. 4832, I believe clarify use of Maven bomb. Okay. Yeah, Monday. I thought I'll just write up this quick little thing. Because I thought the writing was kind of appalling. Okay. All right. So, and so the ideas here is let's review and now. Tim hasn't given is okay yet, but let's, let's do. I do not. And it's sort of, I'd like to see what you think of it. Cause I didn't. That wasn't one that was easy for me to action on. Okay. Sort of, you know, what, what can we assume that people know? Cause there's a lot of stuff that I don't know that the user might know. So. Okay. So are you okay if I just read through it together and let's. That would be lovely. Okay. Good. All right. So. So each of the plugins frequently have dependencies on specific versions of libraries and other plugins, each of which is versioned independently. Each plugin may have dependencies of its own. And different versions of different libraries and plugins may not be compatible with each other. Moreover, the dependencies can change with each release. So managing these dependencies manually can be difficult and time consuming. Okay. I think that's an adequate statement. Okay. So now here we go. Jenkins core bomb. Since Jenkins some, since some version, Jenkins core provides a. Bill of materials that centrally. Okay. So, so I wouldn't. Right. It's moved. I would not. Oh, it's moved. Okay. So you moved it someplace else. Yeah, it's down below. Okay. Good. All right. So. Oh, I see. Okay. So it's. And what it is. What it is. What it is. Oh, you know what? You might want to look at the preview. Yeah. Let's, let's do the preview. That's a good plan. So hang on just a minute. Because what I looked at before it was dependency management. Then we had a subsection. That was called the bomb. And that was where you got the error message. It was, you know, reading it. It took me. Trying to figure out what's going on. So I tried to restructure it a little bit and added some information and. Yeah. Right. So let's, let's look at this for dependency management. Okay. So dependency management. All right. Okay. So. The plug-ins frequently. Okay. So this. And, and wasn't this previously below it. Yes. That was, that was under the error message was under the header of Jenkins bomb. Okay. So. So let's go, let's go look. It will help me just to have my brain around. All right. So here is. No. Okay.  Right. Got it. Okay. So previously there was a section titled Jenkins core bomb or core bill of materials. And. And it said, there's this bomb. And here's the error message. If you have a dependency management problem. Right. And that, that part, I think I see your, your logic and saying, Hey, the error message thing is, is. Yeah, it may be related to that, but really the concepts around the core bill of materials are broader than just, you could have a, a. An upper balanced dependency problem. Right. Okay. So. Well, and as long as, I mean, we, if we could be. There's also the depend about in here. So this whole page is not just about the bomb. We could rename it as bomb, but it dependency management is the issue. Well, and, and I, and, and I like. So what Tim noted is there are two, two forms. There's the plugin bill of materials. And the core bill of materials and they're different things. Right. So, so we need both of them here. So. Is this is what was described as the core bill of materials before right and we could, we could expand the, this, this, but rather than calling it a patchy maven. I think I would stay with Jenkins core bill of materials. Okay. All right. So let, well, and here, let's just make the. I put that yet. Yeah. I, I, that was a writer make, making trouble. Well, well, just does that make sense to you if it's. Right. Yes. Yes. This is the bill of materials and we'll say underneath it, that this is only for if you're developing with Maven. Right. Yeah. Well, yeah. So in the body text. And we certainly should say it is an, it is an Apache Maven bill of materials. Right. Because this, this link is a good one to say, Oh, what is a bill of materials? Well, here you click this to find out. Right. But, but the fact that it's the bill of materials is Jenkins core. And Jenkins core is, is you get it. By using the current Maven parent, parent, the current parent palm. And that's quite different from what you have to do. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, look, okay. All right. So this, this new text is mixing two things. All right. So this is saying to use the Jenkins core bomb, but then it gives instructions. That show you how to use the plugin bomb. Okay. So we've got to split that back out. Okay. So we didn't have instructions before. Got it. Okay. So it's, so I made that up. And so, you know, we're in trouble right. Got it. All right. Excellent. Well, so, but, but I think, I think this is good because what we should do is we've got two sections. I think we need two sections. One on the core bill of materials, which will just say use the most recent parent palm. Okay. And now does everybody just know what that is? It's not, I wanted to link to something and I couldn't figure out what it could link to. Good. Good. So, so let's, let's, let's, let's see how do we, how about. Maven was there before that's the only part of this that was there before, and it didn't make sense before. Let's see if, if we've got, if Maven has, yes, here we go. I'm not sure I would rather prefer. Here it is. So yes, we've got it. Very good. All right. And we've got a page in our world that talks about how to do this. So this is, this is really good because it also has more explanation on what happens here with, with require upper bounds and transitive dependencies and things like that. So this is, yes, excellent. Okay. So what we've got is. So can you give me a suggestion that makes that parent palm reference a link to this? Yes, yes, absolutely. Let's go in and do, let's go in and do some. Well, do you, do you mind if I, if I make my life easier and craft them in my text editor? Not at all. Okay. So I'm going to make the text bigger so it's readable, it's just easier for me when we're doing these sort of sort of larger edits. If I, okay, is that text readable? Very readable. Yes. Okay, great. All right. So, yeah, the GitHub editor gets tedious very quickly. Right, right. Well, and, and I don't know that there's an awful lot of benefit to you to having it all come in as, as, as suggestions, but this, this is going to be fairly, fairly large in terms of moving blocks of text around. Right. Yeah. Sorry. What was that? Oh, I said, you're just going to fix it. You're going to. I, that's what I was going to do. Assuming you're okay with that. Absolutely. Okay. So what I do is I check out that branch, get merge master. Okay. All right. So we're up to date with master. And that noise tells me that you need to do a, you need to remember next time you interact with your fork on GitHub. Don't forget to do this action where you go to the code page. We're talking about it. It's like, because I, I was having weird stuff with make run last night. Ah, okay. Good. Oh yeah, that's why I knew that. Right. And so just, just be sure you do the fetch upstream thing. Great. Okay. So then. All right. So now what I've done is I've, and I need to see which files have been changed. Okay. So this is the file that's changed. Good. Okay. So we'll put that in the background. And this is the file that we, we want to edit. We're going to do some, some modifications to it. Yeah. So first I want to see what master. Okay. So, okay. So the pre okay. This text, I like a lot. Okay. But I don't want to give up. The Jenkins core bomb thing. So I'm going to temporarily. Bring that back. And we'll take out. All right. So. So brought back Jenkins core bomb. Keep your improved phrasing there. Okay. So now this is where we can get. Benefit from linking to the text that you had provided here. Right. Because this was one of the crucial things here was. Okay. Why do you want that before the error messages? Oh, oh, good question. That was part of it. So I wanted to, at the beginning, I wanted to say. This is a. Not a thing to do manually. And here's what happens if you've got a problem. The two solutions, because right now we've got two solutions, right? No, no, there's, there's actually, well. If I'm not doing Maven. The bomb doesn't be no good. If you're not, that's true. If you're not doing Maven, the bomb does, you know, good, but if you're not doing Maven, you have a little bit about dependent bot. The trick is if you're not doing Maven, you also won't get required upper bound dependency warnings. Oh. And the, the reason is the tooling is not available in gradle. To tell us the same things because it's not been created as far as I know. Okay. So, so the, that tooling is as far as I know anyway specific to, to Maven. That's where Jesse invested the work to create it. Okay. So that's under Maven. So then that, okay, I've still got the structure on. So this should have. I, before the bomb, I think. To me, it should, it reads better if we say, if you, in Maven, if you don't do it right, you're going to get these errors, for example, here's your, and then in that same section goes here, how you, and then say, we have this bomb that will fix it. And here's how you use it. Okay. So, so rather than giving an intro, an intro first of what are the two forms of bill of materials. And here are the errors. You're suggesting, let's start with, Hey, if, if here's a, as the first thing, you're going to be using the first form of bill of materials. You're going to be using upper bound dependency message. And then talk about, and this is how you resolve it first by using current version of the, the core bomb. And second, by using the bill of materials. From the, or the, the bomb from the plug-in bomb. To simplify your dependency management. So should this have actually kind of. Should this header be. I don't know what it is, but something like if you're, if you're working with Maven. If you're working with Maven, you're going to get these upward dependency bomb. And here you use the bomb to fix it. Yeah, except that's a good question. I mean, you're thinking, should it be Maven dependency management that I don't know, because I, I think dependencies are managed in gradle. And it specifies dependencies. It just doesn't have the same tooling available. It just doesn't have the same, it just doesn't have the same tooling available. To warn people about it. And in fact, it's largely assumed almost all plugins are, are done with Maven rather than gradle. Gradle is quite exceptional when it's used. Right. And this is only for plugins. So we're not going to have plugins done with, say, no JS or make or something. No, we're right. Definitely not. Yeah.  Slightly better, but that's. So the question is what, you know, what do we do with this dependable piece of it? Well, and, and the dependable piece, I think we can link to. Hang on just a minute. Let's see. I thought. That we had. A couple of links to the github discuss. It used to link to the. The discussion that Oleg started a couple of years ago. Oh, okay. Right. So the dependable, the dependable stuff that's here is, is woefully inadequate. Okay. So you've, what you've, what your poll request has done is improve significantly by giving us something more than just. Just that one hyperlink. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think we can improve slightly and it got better because Tim, Tim already busted me on that one. He says this is way too old. And he just said reference gift hub and. I'm not convinced that that's enough, but. But it's. Well, and, and I'm definitely not convinced it's enough because. Here is, let's see, let's go with. Darren Pope. Let's see. Okay. So. I want the one that has all of this is really cool, by the way. The chapters are made visible here in the search results. Oh, wow. Isn't that great. Okay. So. The room. Yeah. Okay. So now. Here it is automate dependency update checks. Yeah. So here is a video tutorial, but we could embed in this location. Oh, fabulous. To say, look, this is. Some dialogue from two people talking about what it means to do depend upon. Oh, wonderful.  I'm like, I don't think that's enough. Yeah, yeah, that's plenty. So. Oh, yeah, I'm trying to get out of this rabbit hole. This makes me feel much better about it. Well, and I think, I think that we could at least it's not, it's not terribly common for us to embed videos into developer docs, but I think there's no shame in doing it. I think it's worth us. We haven't had videos that we could invent so. Right. Okay. I agree. Yes. So, so. To upgrade. To understand this. Or something. I'm sorry, what would say that again, Meg? I was going to say to understand you, you're very religious fine. Keep typing. Oh, I was just going to. So, so what this text is describing. Is that, okay, yes, you can use, you can use. Depend about anywhere. Gradle or Maven. NPM. Docker files, et cetera. And if you're creating a new plugins. Newly created plugins. Plugins. Built from the. Jenkins. Archetype. Archetype. Include. Oh, and here you've got the link even better. Newly created plugins built from the Jenkins plugin. Archetype. Include. Include. Depend about. By default. That's what this arch archetype thing is. Existing plugins. Need to enable. Depend about. By adding. Configuration by. How about need to, yeah. Enable. No, configure. Hang on. Help me with this. Depend about. In their. Existing plugin repository. Hey, now. Now we look at the video. Right. Okay. And this is where I have to get the correct syntax to embed the video. I'm going to do that. Okay, so I have to go up a level. Or two or 20. Just a minute. And you know, I should remember these things, but I sincerely do not. There is a very specific syntax for these things. It looks like exactly this. And that's what we do. Okay. And then we copy this. Exotic string here. And now I need to find the one that lets me do an offset. Where is it? Somewhere. Oh, start equals. There we go. Okay. That's perfect. Start equals. 980 seconds. Okay. So. How about making. The good. Continue. What's that. Making that existing plugins. Make that a new paragraph. Oh, sure. And then say this video will tell you how, or this video will help. Oh, yes. Video below. See the video below. Just like. Below. Here's a cat video too. And illustrated. An example. Adding depend about. To an existing plugin repository. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. I looked at this and I knew it was bad and I didn't know what to do about it. And. Well, and thank you very much for doing it. Okay. So. So depend the bot. And it's good with having a video link is the last line in the file. It is. Yes. That should be well. And here we're now going to have the fun part of let's go watch and see how it looks in preview. Okay. So here's the window. If we just run the compile. Yeah. Let's see how it looks. Okay. So here's the window, how it looks documentation, developer guide, how to guides. Dependency management. Okay. Jenkins core bomb. Okay. This still needs some additional work, but then here's the video embedded. Okay. Let's go ahead and start playing. Nope. Okay. So I made a mistake. That's why we test. Okay. So it may be that. It doesn't like the S. Okay. Let's refresh this page. If I press play, yes, there it is. This time it started 16 and 20 minutes. 16 minutes, 20 seconds. Okay. All right. I'm just going to continue making tweaks. Okay. I'm just going to go now and if you're okay, I'm sort of running out of time, but I think I'm just going to continue making. Are you okay if I continue making tweaks to what you had created, Megan? I'll just push it right to your, but I am just so happy. Yes. Okay. Great. So I'll continue. I'll make some additional tweaks because this description of the plug-in bill of materials. I think makes a lot of sense. Okay. So this is the core bill of materials. Right. And now. Now what do they need to do with the plug-in bill of materials? So this is the one where they have to do. The exotic steps that you describe here of go find the release. You're using copy the dependency management section, et cetera. So the parent plug in, they just get the. They don't have to do anything. They've got the bill. That's a good one. That's, that's where. That's what I did not understand. I went right over my head. Yeah. So, well, so, and let me try to describe that one. So that's illustrated by a different video from Darren. Actually the same series, but it's, it's segment one in it update the parent palm. And let's, you know what? Should we have this page have two videos on it? I mean, I don't know that that's too excessive. Is it? I don't think so. Okay. So, I mean, I, we just, you know, I'd be hard put to get somebody to go out and do a video just to support this, but if we've got it. Yeah, exactly. No way would we want to spend the energy, but we've already got this video that, that here, let's, let's let me. Yeah, maybe. Well, maybe it's a separate. I wonder if that's a separate subheading. So let me, let me proffer this as an idea to you. Okay. This, this section describes the concept. Right. Jenkins core bill of materials. This shows the error. What if the next thing were a level heading further in. And we said updating. Jenkins core bill of materials. Because this is the solution to many of the problems to some of the problems that have this. Okay. And here it is. We then embed Darren's video. And let me go grab that again. And I think it just has a different start rate. It may actually even be a different video. But that one. Starts much earlier because the very first task that we did, Darren and I did in the video series was. To update the parent palm. Update the, which is what does the update to the Jenkins core bill of materials by using the most recent. Project object model palm version. You get the Jenkins core bill of materials. Right. Um, what. What I would like here.  At the beginning of the, the very beginning of this thing where we tell them the problem. If you do it manually or you're going to screw yourself. Right. And then let's have another paragraph that says. You've got tools here to get you out of this. Oh, oh, very good. All right. A bullet and it says there's the. The Jenkins core bill of materials and what you just get. And this solves this. And then there's the plug in build of materials and you will need to man, you'll need to go in and modify your code to pull that in or something. I only happen to. But you know what I'm saying? Tell me where we're going and what they're for. Right. Okay. Now, now. Yeah. And, and so, okay. So, so the outline you're envisioning is. Hey, here's the, here's the background information. Background information here. Then now tell me where we're going right there before we get to the header. Okay. So help me understand that. So this in the new paragraph and say. This is bad Jenkins gives you tools to fix to easily. Or I don't want to say easily because it's not going to fix everything, but Jenkins provides tools that help you manage this colon. Okay. So dependency management. Hmm. Okay. So. Jenkins provides tools. That simplify dependency. Dependency management. Okay. That's, that's the, and then colon. And then. I want, I just a simple, very simple, a bullet list. Of we have the core bill of materials that solves blank. Right. Core bill of materials. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Four. Tell me what that does. And then the plugin bill. In other words, describe them and then add depend a bot. With like a very, very brief description. That's just to wrap my head around what's coming. Okay. Good. All right. And then the section on the plugin bill of materials, I'd make it a high level. I put it up on the second level. I make all those three things be the same level of heading. Okay. Say that, say that last part again. I down there, you made the plugin bill of materials, a subheading to the. Right. Yeah. So what you're saying there is. And okay. So what I was thinking was, okay. So core bill of materials. This. Is really a reference to the. Right. It's actually, it's a. And then this similarly. And so, because there's a section on. There's a heading on plugin bill. Oh, there will be a heading on plug and plug in bill of materials. Right. Okay. Now, is it. Is it okay if. Jenkins core bill of materials were changed to just core bill of materials. You have strong feeling. It needs to say Jenkins. I do not have strong feelings at all. Okay. All right. Yeah. We're in Jenkins, you know. Okay. And then. And now don't we use, we use sentence case, don't we? I accept bill of materials as a. We get an acronym for I. Oh, right, right, right. You're right. That's, and that's probably reason enough right there too. Okay. My dad might even put the bomb in there. Now what I'd love to have is if I'm coming to this cold. Okay. Give me. While you stand on one leg, what each of them do for me? Okay, right. So let's do so. Okay. So now. To. Centrally define. Library versions. Used or provided by. By Jenkins core. Okay. I'm going to use the plug in bill of materials to separately. Plug in bill of materials uses. Actually, and now I need to praise it in verb with a verb. Okay. So it really centrally defines library versions provided by Jenkins. Okay. And this centrally defines. The plugin versions. Are known. Known to. Work well together. How do we say that? How about this way have been that have been. Tested together. Yes. Okay. And depend about. Proposes poll requests. When new. Library. New versions. Of libraries. Or plugins are released. Proposed proposes present tense. So does that, does that give the picture you were thinking? Yes. Okay. It makes up to me because I don't know this stuff. It makes it all. Because then I just started running in as there's this and there's this and you might like this and. I couldn't figure out what we were doing and how they related and. Yeah. Okay. And now is it kosher that we say. That I actually put. Old text. Yeah. So that people realize. These things are different. It's like, well, wait a sec. Centrally defines versions. If I don't detect the word library. There, I may not understand why I need both of them. Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what we're talking about. And that's what we're talking about. And now there be made, there may be objections have been tested together, but truly that's what happens. This thing, this plugin bill of materials. Regularly evaluates combinations of plugins in context to be sure that they played. Played together at least well enough to pass their own automated tests. Right. Maybe it defines a set of plugin versions or something. Oh, oh, yes. Yes. That's very good. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's a library versions. Yeah. So not a library. Yeah. Yeah, maybe both of them need it. Well, except that, see, for me, the, there's a, and maybe I don't know if we're conveying the difference here, but the difference. A core, a core bill of materials. No, is it really? No, so, so I'm not, I think, I think it's fine with set of to describe plugin versions because it, it is a collection library versions. To me is not nearly as much of a set. As it's describing what's actually in, in Jenkins. This thing is describing things that you might optionally choose. Is library versions the one that sentence somehow it doesn't make sense to me quite it's getting there. Okay. Is it created by this. For this Jenkins release or this version of Jenkins or see, and that's the piece that, that I don't want to state that because I think that's inaccurate because if we look at, at parent palm version numbers, they are not tied to Jenkins versions. Okay. So for instance, let's look at a plugin I maintain. It uses the current version of the parent palm and its version for dot 33, which is utterly unrelated to any Jenkins version number. Right. And yet somehow that number. Plus this Jenkins dot version. Cause this bill to know that it's, it's connected to Jenkins 2.289.1 and nothing older than that. Right. So wording wise, I wasn't, I wasn't comfortable putting Jenkins core here. Actually maybe core identified by the Maven property. Jenkins dot version. Okay. I think that there's a danger that's wrong, but, but I think that maybe what's what, what, what is happening. Okay. Yeah. Cause without that, what the, it almost sounded like, this is how I build. This is defining the library versions to you. We're saying for this release, this is, you know, a curated set. Of some, yeah. Yeah. See that that's the piece I'm. I'm not entirely sure. Well, I mean, we can certainly set it there and see what, what feedback from others is received. What if it was defines a curated set of library versions. Well, because it's in this case, this one. Plug in bill of materials. I might call curation. Okay. Because it, it truly is choosing things for you in advance. If you say I want library X and Jenkins already got it. I think that's the one you get. Because I could. If I wanted to, I could specify a different library version to use, right? You could. But if I, if I understand correctly, you won't get it. But, but they're okay. So are these, am I, if I'm building for this release, I can only use the library versions that are in the bomb. Correct. Okay. At least that's my understanding the core bill of materials. Oh, it says Jenkins core at this version has this, this very, this number version of. Let's pick a library. Like what's a good one. J and I, that's a relatively obscure one, but it's still bundled. If I remember correctly. And, and you can't get another version because it's built into core. Okay. This is just a huge improvement. And it looks like Tim Jacob, maybe somebody else will. On review will critique it or something. Well, and, and they may say, Hey, look, Mark, you didn't understand. And then, then everybody gets, we all gain knowledge. If, if I've, if we've said it wrong. And you're getting closer. Well, it's, yeah, I hope it's not further away. That's, that's, that would already be a big. You know, with that, I, some of his comments and with that one, it's like, I still don't know what you're talking about. So. Right. Because what struck me in the meeting on Monday was we opened the doc and I glanced at it and it was like, I don't know what you're talking about. And then you started talking. It all made sense. Oh, well, so that just says, I can, what I realized was that there was stuff in your head that was not on this paper. And not everybody that tries to do this is probably going to have the luxury of having you walk them through it. So. Right. So that's what I was trying to catch. I was trying to catch. Yeah. And I didn't mean to foist more work on you, but if you want to do it, I'll be eternally grateful. Well, in this case. It's, it's a good. Yes. Yeah. So plugins depend on specific versions of libraries. And of other plugins. Each, each version independently. Yes. Okay. Each plugin may have dependencies of its own and each plugin. Each dependency may have dependencies of its own and different versions of libraries and plugins may not become. Yes. Okay. So you want to make each dependency may have dependencies. Not each plugin. Well, is that, are you would, is that okay with you? I mean, for me, it hints the, the transitive nature of this thing, the recursive nature of it. Yeah. Mark, you know what you're talking about. And I don't. So almost any suggestion you have in mind is just probably fine with me. So. Yeah. Okay. Good. All right. Jenkins has tools that simplify dependency management. The core bill of materials. Yes. The plugin. And now there may be some. Precision. Comments from, from Daniel, for instance, I could see him saying, Hey, there are still some Jenkins plugins. That are bundled in core. And he might then say, ah, and those plugins are here, but for me, I'm treating that as such an exceptional case. That. Plugins bundled in core. I'm treating differently. Okay. Because I, I'm trying to avoid saying here plugin and library versions, because I don't want the complexity for the mental model of the user of the reader.  I want them to have it, even if it's a flawed perception, the perception that they are not overlapping sets. Right. If you wanted to. Down in the detailed section, we're talking about the core bomb. I would add a note that says there are a few plugins that are included in core and those will be, you know, you can make that as a note. Okay. Right. Which, which gets, but I still don't need to know that just going into here. Right. Exactly. Okay. So I apologize. I'm, I think I've got to reach a point of stop here. Yeah. I'm going to go ahead. Over. I'm just eternally grateful. Well, we'll, we'll continue working it together. I'll push some, some, some text up there. You review it. We'll then rely on Tim or others to review it and see if there are. Are changes that they want to recommend. Right. And then list of tasks. I don't know what you and. I've got into after I was not on the line. I don't know if there were other things to do either. List of tasks. Sorry, which list of tasks. When you get into how you implement the plug and go and materials. Oh, oh, that. And that, yeah, that I'll, I'll try to put some words around it just to. Just because it's that one really as well illustrated by the video. And it's more an exercise of. Trying to find a way to phrase in the, in simple bullet form. Some of the conversations that Darren and I had in the video. Okay. And I mean, it may be that you. I like having something that I can look at without pulling up the video again. But it may be that you, that you just. You're going to need to do this and see this video to find out. Or because I don't want to require, require people just to deal with spoken English. Right. I think giving them a written, a written description is very healthy. Just like you did bulleted list is very, very good. I could go in and watch the video and make a new list. But you're certainly welcome to that would be great. Let me, and I may offer some, some suggestions. Those would all be wonderful. Okay. And I've got a phone ringing and you need to go. All right. Thanks, Meg. Bye. Bye-bye.