Hi, my name is Kai. I am an accessibility analyst at NELS. And I do a lot of testing of websites and apps for their accessibility using assistive technology. I also do a lot of work with our tactile initiatives and work on different tactile graphic projects that are part of that. In this demo, I'm going to go through what the interaction of a screen reader, specifically non-visual desktop access, and VDA will look like when reading an EPUB using Thorium. Before I do that, though, I want to talk about what a screen reader is and how it works. So you may or may not know, but a screen reader will read all the different elements on the screen. It will read the text, as well as the controls. If I go to the top of this page and arrow down, you'll hear a skip to content button, toolbar navigation landmark, list with three items, button graphic information. Here an information button, list with one items, button graphic, activate text to speech. You'll hear an activate text to speech button. Out of list with five items, toggle button, not press search and publication. And so on. When we go to the main content, you'll hear the text of the book, as well as described images using alt text. In many cases with many different screen readers, but for sure with NVDA, you'll find that it's very linear. It reads things from top to bottom, left to right. And because Thorium is displaying all the controls and the content of the book and a webpage style, we can also jump to the different elements. So we can jump by buttons, links, headings, all the elements that you would expect to find on a webpage. This allows for greater efficiency. And again, you'll see this as we continue on. So let's look at the demo book that we have here. I'm going to jump by landmark and go to the main content. Main content, landmark, main content, heading level. And let's just read a little bit of this. Heading level to main content, frame, clickable link, cover, region, graphic cover, accessible publishing, summit 2023 by NNELS. The cover is mainly yellow with a large white graphic badge shape in the center. The book's title is in the white space out of the region. So this is just an image. It's the book cover, but we're able to get a description of it because it has alt text on it. And alt text describes what's in the image for screen reader users in a textual way. We'll be talking a little bit more about that in a few minutes. But I wanted to point this out because in a lot of books that are technically accessible, the alt text for these images just contain the name of the book and the author. And we at NNELS don't really find that to be very meaningful or an equitable experience because we believe that readers should have access to this information as well in social contexts, such as in a book club or talking to a friend. They might be left out of the conversation if they don't know what the image is for the book. So it's important to include alt text even for your book covers and not just for the images in your book. Let's move to the next section. Made content over out of list out of list frame, clickable title, codex, landmark, accessible, publishing, summit demo, 2023. So this is just a little bit of text. It's the title page. Let's go on. Made content over out of list out of frame, clickable link, copyright page, region page, IE separator, CC0 slash public domain. Accessible publishing, summit demo, 2023. No rights reserved. Published by Link National Network for Equitable Library Service. Cover designed by LBISBN10, 1 billion. So this is a lot of text and there's a link here as well. And again, it's reading from top to bottom, left to right. And since it's a very simple layout, it's reading just fine. What I want to point out here is that with text and screen readers, it's not just reading from the beginning to the end. The power of using a screen reader and navigating through text like this is the granularity. So I can arrow up and down to go by line. ISBN13, 978, well distributed by Link National Network for Equitable Library Service, distributed by ISBN13, ISBN10, what? I can navigate by word. ISBN10, 1 billion to UNDISBN13, 971 billion to UNDISTRIBUTED by... I can also navigate by character. Space D E T U D U T E D space D Y cold space. And depending on some screen readers, you can also navigate by sentence and paragraph as well. So there's different granularity options and that allows the user to have full control over what they hear, when they hear it and how to hear it. Let's move to the next section. MADECON, toolbrow the list of frame-clickable Link, block quote page E, separator to all readers. Out of block quote, out of frame button graph. So this is again just a bit more text this time, styled with a block quote style and because it's properly using the block quote markup, the scooter is going to pick that up. MADECON, toolbrow the frame-clickable Link, mark heading level 1, page 1, step heading level 1, the novel light chapter. So here we have some pretty basic elements and we're going to go through some of these sections, but there's a lot, so we're going to go pretty quickly through this. One thing to point out though is that in this chapter and in the second chapter, it uses headings. Now, one of the major mistakes we've seen with eBooks is people using headings as styling and what that does is messes up the structure of the book, which is important for screen reader users as they rely on headings to jump to different sections and to know how the section is laid out. What do I mean by this? So let's go to the first level one heading. MADECON, heading level 2, toolbrow heading level 2, MADECON, clickable landmark page 1, separator chapter 1, a novel light chapter, heading level 1. Here we go. And when I navigate by headings, a section with a block quote heading level 2, a section with a context break heading level 2, a section with and without a language shift heading level 2, with a marked up language shift heading level 3. You can hear that it uses level 2s and level 3s in a very logical way as a way to indicate subsections and sub-subsections. If you skip level headings, that would make it a poor heading hierarchy as it doesn't necessarily convey what that section is. Now, if you want to style a heading in a particular way, we recommend using CSS. So here you may notice that it's a separator and it says the page number. Separator page 3, page 2, page 1, separator heading level. We usually tie page numbers to separators as an easy way to navigate to different pages. But we also use a separator for a context break. I'm gonna play a little bit of text here. You'll be able to hear it in a little bit more of a contextual situation. Heading level 2, a section with a context break. He displayed a skill in page 3, separator the choice of crowns and the use of light troops and it's securing his own supplies whilst he cut off those of the enemy with Kartikaya himself. God of War might have envied. Separator Dr. Heraklius Bloss was a very learned man, although no book of any description written by him but ever appeared in the bookshops of the town. All the inhabitants of the airtight city of Blanson regarded Dr. Heraklius Bloss as a very learned man. So what you've heard in this section are two separators. The first one is a page number, which NVDA announced as page 3. The next is a context break, which NVDA read as separator. That one uses an HR tag. The next section we'll talk about is a language shift. So in this section, we have two passages. The first one marked up with a language shift and in this case, French. The second one has no language markup. Unfortunately, NVDA is unable to parse this code. So even in a passage with a marked up language shift, it will still sound like this. Heading level 2, a section with and without a language shift. Heading level 3, with a marked up language shift. The French expression of our lesbians the lexical year refers to an inability to think of a witty comeback or any sort of intelligent response until it's too late to be of any use. Heading level. It still is reading the section in French with an American accent. We're not sure why this is, but if you check out the other videos in this series, you'll hear that other screen readers are able to detect this language markup and read with the appropriate accent. Main code heading left will make frame clickable in landmark heading level 1 page 4, separator chapter 2. So here we're on chapter 2 and there's a lot of different interesting elements to go through. So we went by chapter 1 pretty fast, but I'm gonna take a little bit more time to share my thoughts on this chapter. So the first thing we have here is a section with a list heading level 2 lists. And this is pretty simple. If you mark your lists up using the right list tags, then the screen reader will know, in this case, that video will be able to see that it's a list. It will announce how many items are there and will tell the user that they're in a list or outside of a list. So let's take a listen with a little bit of pre-multivax 4. Heading level 2 section with lists. The practical man may just be observed at this point that the world of single vision is the only world he knows that it appears to be list with three items, bullet real, bullet solid, bullet and self consistent out of list. So, again, you can hear there's three items. You can hear when it's in a list, when it's outside of a list and because it's a bulleted list, we're just hearing bullet before each piece of text. But let's jump to the next list again, using a hotkey to jump to these different elements. List with two items, one, create if he can some feeling of dissatisfaction with the world within which the practical man has always lived and acted and, two, does it out of list head list with two items, two, does it just something of its fragmentary and subjective character out of list heading level 2 limit? So, here we have two items and because this is a numbered list, we are able to hear the numbers before the text. Next, we have images and we've talked about images and how to make them accessible in previous summit demonstrations. So, it certainly encouraged you to go and check those out if you'd like. But here, I just wanna show what the interaction is when proper alt text has been added to an image. Let's read a little bit. Heading level 2 images section, heading level 3 regular image. One day when he was trolling in the square at the Lansom, he saw a large wooden hut from which came the sound of terrible howling while on the platform a mount bank had coherently invited the crowd to come and see the terrible Apache Tamer Tomahawk rumbling thunder. Prooping graphic a drawing of a shirtless white man. He reaches upwards with one arm against a starry night sky. Graphic text reads for a spare at a straw. Caption figure one. Illustration from Finland in the 19th century out of proofing. Okay, so there's a lot there. There's the context with the text of the passage. And then when we went to the image itself, NVDA announced graphic and then it read the description that was provided through the alt text. Now you'll also notice below this is a caption. And it's really important to point out here that a caption doesn't replace the need for alt text. Some people will think that, oh, you know, there's a caption and it does provide some level of detail on what the image is. But what we found is that there's certainly more details that could be conveyed. And the caption itself doesn't necessarily need that need. Why? Because the caption is actually meant to supplement what you're already seeing. And if I'm not able to see what's in the image, then I'm still missing some of the really important information. So it's important to add alt text and not just rely on the caption. Since alt text replaces the visual experience with a textual one that paints a picture of what's happening and supplements that with the caption. So let's look at a more complicated image. Here we have a more complicated image. It's a train map. And we still need alt text to describe what the image is, but it doesn't have to go into detail at this level of all the different branches and stuff because that would be a lot of information. So how do we convey such complicated information? Well, we have provided a link to a longer description and we call this extended description. So let's click on the link and see what the longer description shows. After the long description, we have a return to figure link that takes us to where we left off. And just to remind you all, we don't necessarily always listen to the extended description in full. We might want to navigate by paragraph. We might want to navigate by character. Or a word. Or a line. So again, we have full control over how we access the text. And so even though it seems very daunting to listen to all of this at once, we can certainly pause it and go through it in different ways. So let's jump to the return link. And we are back on the image where we left off. One thing I have noticed with thorium is sometimes there are some minor focus issues. When you set your anchor link, it should be on the link itself that takes you to the extended description. It shouldn't jump back up to the start of the image where the alt text begins. All right. Next we have page seven, separator section with a footnote and an end to the heading. Footnotes and unnotes. So here I'm just going to have it start reading and we'll talk about what we encounter. Heading level two, page seven, separator section with a footnote and an end to the heading level three footnote section before the super specimen of man in his last trans migration. Araclius claws fail with joy, stood lost in profound meditation. Link star, footnote, link star. Link star, footnote, link star. Araclius claws is quite a cool name. So here we see two ways that this has been done. We see the footnote as part of the text below where I can just arrow down to it. Link star. But I can also click on the star. The dialogue star, star, araclius claws is quite a cool name. Clickable star, linkaraclius claws is quite a cool name. Link star, araclius, link star, araclius, clickable. So it popped up the same footnote in another dialogue and NVDA read that. And once I was done listening to it, I could just hit escape to close it. Footnote heading level three end of the section. Then having executed a fantastic. So let's look at end notes. Four and the gentleman gave way to the most unsamely hilarity at the sight of the doctor's beard. Link one. Heading level two section with a link one. So let's click on this. A dialogue one. One, to be fair, the beard was weird. Clickable one. Link to be fair. Clickable. And again, this just popped up a dialogue and I was able to hear what was happening and once I was done listening to this, I could hit escape to close it. Section with a table heading level two. So next tables and in this section, what will be important is making sure that these tables read properly with screen readers. What I mean by this is in a lot of cases, tables are used as layouts rather than as data tables. So it's important to make your data tables accessible using table markup by marking up your rows and columns as headers and as cells. Table with five rows and three. So here we have a table and let's go through this. So when I'm in a table, it will announce the number of rows and columns and I can use the arrow keys to move around. Row to Augustus. The length of reign in years column 241. Cause of death column three natural causes probable. When I navigate across the row because the first row of cells is marked up as a header, I know which cell belongs to which column and when I arrow through these using special NVDA navigation table commands. Length of reign in years column 241. It will read the header and then it will read what's in the cell. Name of emperor column one Augustus. I can also go down. And one of the beautiful things about having a markup table like this is I get a spatial layout of where things are. So I can go to the right length of cause of death column. Then I can go out Augustus row. And I know that I went right and up because I'm able to hear what the rows and columns are and I've also moved in that direction. So you have a couple of ways of identifying that but it does represent things in a spatial way that make it easier to understand the data. So let's section with a sidebar heading level. Look at the sidebar. One day when he was scrolling in the square at the Lanson he saw a large wooden hut from which came the sound of terrible howling while on the platform of Mount Bangin coherently invited the crowd to come and see the terrible Apache Tamer Tomahawk rumbling thunder complimentary landmark heading level free a sidebar. This is the text of the sidebar. In this case, we've just kept it simple and added a heading to indicate where the sidebar is. Heading level three is a landmark heading level two. Okay, so that's it actually. We've gone through a lot of these subsections quite quickly. So what I want to leave you all with and thinking about accessible ebooks is that each screen reader has a slightly different interaction with NVDA. It's very straightforward. And when you've marked up your ebooks, NVDA will see those elements and as a user and be able to navigate very efficiently by jumping to those different elements. But let's take a step back and think about what that interaction looks like in the future when we have virtual reality and other forms of technology. I think a really important takeaway is that when we read ebooks, we need a lot of flexibility in how we navigate and that granularity. So whether I'm using Windows with NVDA or some other virtual reality platform that doesn't exist yet, it's going to be really important to think about these interactions and what we want to have available through these interactions. The behavior of the screen reader is going to act different, but the functionality should be the same. With that, thank you for listening to this presentation and I hope you all have a good day.


Yeah, bingo. It's 12 o'clock and it's a given Monday and Maria is with us. Maria Park Holmchuk. Hi, Maria. Nice to have you on the show. Thank you for having me. Yeah, Maria is an intern with Think Tech and we want to have a show with her to, you know, meet her, so to speak. And I think it's very important that we cover things that are totally relevant that are happening right now, because she's a journalism student at the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism in ASU. But if you watch PBS NewsHour, you know that they're closely affiliated with the NewsHour. I really like that. And that what that means is the Walter Cronkite School is a very important school. It's a national school in journalism. Good for you, Maria, good for you for being there and for studying journalism. So we're going to talk about journalism today. The first thing I want to talk about is, what's it like to be a remote student at the Walter Cronkite School? Absolutely. So for me, I have the privilege of attending ASU Walter Cronkite and still live here in my home state of Hawaii. So I get to take the lessons from that school from my professors and my mentors and apply it to the local community here, which has been transformative as far as from my experience because I grew up in Hawaii. You know, I know the people here I'm connected, but being able to look at the state from a journalist perspective just gave me an entirely new experience with what I thought I knew and what I know now.  You don't mind traveling to, you know, developing countries. You don't mind talking to people who don't speak English. You don't mind chasing the development of humanity anywhere it takes you. Am I right about that? Absolutely. Journalism is in no way a comfortable job. You know, you're always learning something new every day and being challenged. And that's one of the things that I wanted to pursue and why journalism fits so well. For me, that journalism is a civic engagement. You know, it's the bridge between your government and the people. So the reason that I decided to take this route is because I wanted to reassure people in those uncertain and doubtful times and to inform them in moments of confusion, especially in the pandemic that we're experiencing now. So I don't want to be comfortable in a profession. I want to grow and learn. And I think the best way to do that is connecting with people. The problem, though, is that journalism and, you know, news gathering, so to speak, is under a lot of pressure. Two ways I can think of, you know, one is it's under economic pressure, and the other is it's under political pressure, both of which could be, you know, devastating to the industry going forward. You realize all this, you see all you must know about this, and still you select journalism as your application. Aren't you worried? Yes, absolutely.  But I think honestly, you know, especially in these times, it's more important to have that factual, informative journalism. And it's a good path to follow, but your audience has to want to hear it. And I think that's where journalists need to focus their energy is reconnecting and rebuilding that trust that was lost, so that we can get back to original journalism as it once was. Yeah, let me take you down a slightly different path, though. There's always the dichotomy of giving the people what the people want to know, and giving the people what the people should know to be good citizens in our democracy. I do reconcile the difference between those two because some news organizations are more inclined to give people what they think people want to hear, rather than give people what people should be hearing. Where do you react on that? I think that falls with personal integrity. As news outlets and news organizations, obviously the mindset and ideas of your viewership is important, so you want to tell those stories, but not compromise the ethics of journalism. Finding that middle ground between making sure that you're consistent factual and informative, and also making sure that you're not ignoring the needs of your audience. It's finding both sides of the island coming together in that sense. And I think right now with so many news organizations not doing that or pandering to viewership and quantity amount, it's more important to stand out from that crowd and just fall in line with your intent and your personal integrity. Yeah, and also the priorities. Every journalist has to make his or her mind about what's important here, what's important for the democracy, for the society. And sometimes people don't know. They just don't go to school for that and they may not understand what's really important. So the journalist in making the priorities and figuring out what to talk to them about what to select, either as, you know, a factual report a story or an op-ed opinion story. You're teaching people. You're teaching citizens, you're teaching the electorate. So you always have it in prayer. I hope you recognize this. Do you recognize this? Freshly, I think with journalists, you're not so much teaching as passing along the stories of your community. So essentially your community is teaching you along with everyone else. I think we can all take more time to understand each other's perspectives and learn from one another. And a journalist essentially acts as that messenger and that storyteller. But also to save our democracy, which is under threat. So what about what I mentioned, you know, the thousands of journalists have lost their jobs in the past years, say in 2019. Hundreds of newspapers, even local newspapers, which are especially local newspapers, which are important, you know, in our country have folded. And this is problematic, isn't it? It's problematic for the readership. It's problematic for the analysis. It's problematic for certainly for jobs like the jobs you want to have. Where do you see it going? I mean, if you look at it within the container of 2019, forget about COVID for a minute, just the way it was going before COVID. Yeah, I definitely think right now it's an unsteady time for journalism with everyone losing third, not everyone, but there's an obvious, I guess downhill slope that we're experiencing. Less people are watching the news. More people are accessing Facebook and other commentary based news outlets versus your factual storytelling standard journalism. And like I said, I think with fake news, it could easily end up being where you lose that viewership and that trust from your audience. So it, as long as we're making efforts to rebuild that trust with our community, with our government, and as long as we're working on getting these stories out and prioritizing fact based journalism over sensationalism, I think there's hope that we can get back up to where we once were before 2019. Okay, I hope so. But let's talk about the economics of the internet. You know, a lot of newspapers, primary newspapers, primary source original news newspapers, there aren't that many of them left actually, have gone on the internet. And even I noticed just a couple of days ago that that the star bullet and a hundred star advertiser changed its online format to include a choice for you to read the paper that's printed. So you get the whole, the whole paper, double double fold kind of all that. I'm saying that's a that's a significant change. I don't know exactly what it means maybe people are seeking that maybe people don't want to read the actual hard copy newspaper, they like to see a virtual of the hard copy newspaper. I see that the star advertiser is, is evolving into a newspaper, which doesn't have a hard copy paper edition, and that's all online, I mean, all these, all these newspapers are evolving into the internet. And I think it's worth discussing because I think the paper versions, maybe little by little going away for many reasons what do you think. I, I stand with it as, you know, we as society. Everyone is switching more to virtual information and access to information is at the tip of our fingers now if we want an article on a particular subject in 0.2 seconds we can generate that. With journalism, it's our responsibility and our role to adapt with that we can't expect people to remain stagnant. So I think they're taking a proactive step in switching to this virtual news delivery because they're encouraging readers to still remain connected with the issues of their state in their nation, and also doing so in a way that doesn't force everyone to kind of back pedal to where we once were. I personally don't think there are any issues with virtual access to news so long as people are accessing that news at the end of the day. Now the economics that flow out of that reflected in an article. I want to say the times I sent you that article was that the times of the Washington Post or what. I believe it was. I think yeah I think it was the times and it was a story about two regulators, one in Australia, and one in France. They were determined to get both Google and Facebook to pay original news original news sources for the stories because I, you know, you have to think about it but what happens is Google Facebook and others on online they take the news. That's reported by the original sources, whether it's in paper or on the websites, and they make that news their own.  They don't have a newsroom they just pull it off other other sites other places, and both of these regulators perhaps they're about God, in the sense that they want both Google and Facebook to pay the original sources. Now what's interesting about the story, then I'll let you tell more of it is that the is that the, the Facebook people are agreeable to pay the Google people are not agreeable to pay. They both have, you know, completely different 180 positions on this. What do you think about this story is this going to take off in other places, other original news sources other countries other regulators, or is, or is the position that Google takes namely blowing off their request going to prevail. Yeah, I definitely think it's a profound article and an interesting discussion to have on one end news shouldn't be held captive we should be doing everything to spread that message around but on the other hand if you deprive news organizations of that funding that they need to continue you're not going to have these stories to tell. So it falls back on realizing the importance of the news outlet and the news organization that is delivering these messages and making sure that we honor them and the work that they do put in and continue that funding as far as economics So I am a novice in the journalism world, but I think it's important and prevalent if we want to continue to have that civic engagement to honor the people that are going out there and putting their lives on the line and giving time to these community members to have their voices heard. Yeah, let me say that going forward, as it evolves as the industry evolves, everyone is going to be watching the economics, all the time, there'll be papers that fail, there'll be internet news sites that fail, there'll be new entries who are successful in a matter of minutes. So it's going to move very fast and and so a career like the one you're going to have really depends on being nimble. And I think you'll probably have many, many jobs, many men, and the question I suppose is when do you like freelance, or do you like working for one organization at a time. Do you have any inclination on that. So far I've actually had the privilege of interning with broadcast station here on the island and a few different media organizations. So I've got to see the different types of leadership and journalism and the values that each corporation or organization does hold. Personally, the thing I love about freelance is being able to get out and pursue the stories that I feel are important to tell, and then putting that together from start to finish, from the writing to the editing process and then having people, I guess, engage and give their feedback on that. I think that's important on a crucial part of a growing journalist. And then at the same time, with an organization that has its set values and the message and forth. If you agree with that mission and it falls in line with your personal integrity, then that's a match made in heaven essentially and that's what I am ideally pursuing. Let's talk about investigative journalism.  So that's a different genre to different kettle of fish. How do you feel about that and how do you feel about that for you. I think journalists, I mean today still do that it's it's very interesting and definitely a risk to take to pursue a story because you don't know how it's going to end and I think that's the main fun of it is trusting the community to give you that feedback and that story to tell. And then that's also important to remember. There's a team of 100 people you know the other producers, the photographers and everyone coming together and brainstorming how are we going to best tell this in a way that honors the story itself. I think investigative journalism is an amazing career path and one that I do want to take up on, especially in regions where we don't know enough about them we're so close to our own perspective and what we experienced. So we don't know what's going on in Lebanon and these third world countries I think those are the stories that we need to prioritize, because if you're telling these stories and you're investigating to detail that what is happening then what that could lead to is aid to the region, more civic engagement, more people understanding the perspective of someone who's five 6000 miles away and then at the end of the day we're more connected. You know it's interesting as you know if you watch for example MSNBC. A lot of the, a lot of the interviews are with journalists. The journalist is the host, the TV journalist, the moderator, what have you, and the people who come and talk to him and provide information. They are also journalists. And that's because they have become expert. They have written stories. They have followed this they have done investigative reporting on it. They know the players and they are sources of themselves. You know I don't think this was always the case but it's certainly the case now. And you know I suspect that one of the reasons that this happens is it's hard for that media to bring in original source interview, interviewees, because they're not, they can't come because their jobs don't allow them to come their bosses their government organizations, certainly in the, you know anything around the White House it's all controlled. Not only is the appearance control but the messages control this really hard to get original source information in an environment like that. I think that's going to happen more and more that journalists will be the witnesses, they'll be the experts, they'll come and tell us on a TV program where a number of them appear. How do you feel about being one of them. How do you feel about learning a story, writing the story and then coming telling the story on a TV news program. I definitely agree you know now with finding a primary source, it gets harder because you have these organizations, you know that don't want to answer the questions that everyone wants answered, just to protect their reputation or what what it be. But any journalist will tell you that ideally they want that primary source they want the person who experienced it firsthand rather than a retelling and that's that's the story that we want to tell. Over the years journalists collect life experiences and stories from all kinds of people so they can bring that forth in a meaningful way, but I for me. I just want to moderate the conversation but let the storyteller be the person who experienced it down the line that is problematic because of that control as you say, then I still think that story should be told regardless we shouldn't just decide oh we're not going to tell it because we're not going to tell the source, but we should press on to make sure that we're getting creative with the types of people that can talk about this. I mean even now as you and I are talking about the state of journalism. There's so many range of professionals that can give their input on this that could make it an even broader discussion. I agree. Anyway, so let's take a few minutes and talk about COVID COVID is the biggest story of our times and for the older people like me. It's the biggest story of our lives. It's, it's remarkable, it's threatening, it's existential, and it is changing the world. So my question to you is how is it changing journalism. It's changing reporting.  So, how do you feel about that. Isn't that changing everything. I think the most interesting thing for me, while I was interning with KHON channel to news is I started my internship with the tragedy at Diamondhead which was very hard day to experience firsthand as a young broadcast intern, and I ended my journalism experience with the station discussing COVID-19. So, from start to finish I experienced things that I as a journalist as a young person never thought that I would engage with. But it left me understanding, you know, at the end of the day, these stories need to be told. If everyone is at a time where they're unsure of what's going on they don't know what they're going to seek journalists to help them better grasp what is going, better communicate with their government. So right now, journalists are the pathway between what the state is doing, what the nation is doing and your local audience at home trying to figure out, you know, how they're going to move on with their life, how they're going to feed their kids and all of these tense uncertain situations. Ideally, you don't want to spend all of our time talking about COVID-19, there are other stories to tell, but it's such an overpowering issue at the moment with everyone, almost everyone being affected directly, that we need to make sure that we're getting as much information into the public as many updates and back checking numerous times a day just to make sure that we're not spreading misinformation and people are informed because when you're informed you're more sure of your next steps, you're not stuck in that confusion and panic. Well, there are a lot of people that are nevertheless stuck. You know, and government is stuck. If you see both state and federal government, you see people who are very concerned they're going to make a mistake. They are very concerned with whatever they say they don't tell the public everything they want to avoid panic. They're doing it for reaction. They're doing it to control public opinion. And it's sort of like what we were talking about before. They want to control the message. They don't want anybody speaking but them. And you see that certainly in the White House and you see it also that control thing happening here in the state about COVID. And so, you know, the reporter can, he can attend those conferences and just take it as it is given, you know, and whatever information is spoon fed in those press conferences or he or she can go out there further and check it out and see whether it's true or not. And try to talk to independent people, some of whom are going to want to be anonymous, some of whom are not authorized to speak.  Hmm, boring. And it's not necessarily true. So now you have a different burden when you cover COVID. You have to be your own independent reporter, and you have to find you have to test everything that is that is given to you, either by the government or by a public relations organization, which are paid again to control the message. This makes it more challenging, don't you think You know, being in the press conferences and getting to sit in on those. I found our journalists here in Hawaii, especially are some of the most hardworking, thorough people that I have ever met, even in those press conferences, you know, they're doing so much more than just taking notes, they're asking the hard questions that officials otherwise wouldn't put out on their own, and they're holding them accountable. I've seen it firsthand. They're asking the questions that viewers call in, you know, they're expressing their concern. I don't know when my kid which can return to school, you know, I lost my job. They're making sure that these concerns get addressed and these discussions are being had so I definitely think that as far as the journalists, they're doing their part about holding officials accountable and getting information to the public. It does get really hard because we are learning about this unprecedented pandemic, almost at the same time. So as soon as information does become available, we have to make sure that it's factual we have to make sure that all sides of it are true so that we're not confusing the public further because everyone right now is so unsure of what is to come and what is coming at the moment. Well that takes me to my last and maybe my most important question for you, Maria. That is this. You know you talk about being absolutely factual talking about delivering the news in the most accurate way. And of course we want that. That's the standard. And also when I say we I mean me but I mean everybody I know, we want to hear your opinions. We want to hear your expectations. We want to hear your projections. We want you to connect the dots and give us a view into the future, because we treat you as experts as I said, you do the investigation, you know the story. Not every reporter can do this, not every reporter should do this. But when you look at the op end pieces by the regular columnists in the in the New York Times. It is an education beyond the news. Where do you see that, where do you see columnists and reporters who are able to connect the dots who are able to give us inside beyond inside being the operative word inside beyond just reporting the facts. Right now I completely understand that, even with factual journalism there's always going to be that bias with the reporter and with the conversation that is being had so the main thing that I've learned as a journalism student has been emphasized over and over is objectivity. They want us to stay, you know, focused on what the facts are and what the information that is needed to present it.  And I think the, that's why opinion editorials columnists are such an important part of journalism is because some people don't consider this other perspective. So, as far as I'm concerned, journalism should be reported object. Ooh, excuse me. Journalism should be reported as an objective fact based information, but at the same time, we should have these discussions a panel to talk about you know the perspectives of community members of our own experiences just to further that deeper meaning of understanding. I think both sides should be welcomed and as long as we're clear clearly displaying what the facts are and what the opinion is in the perspective is, then we're still holding on to that integrity and that objectivity. Well, I want to give you an example and see how you react to it. My sister-in-law is Linda greenhouse. She is a multiple award winner for the New York Times she has covered the United States Supreme Court for 30 years. She retired from active writing a couple of years ago but every two weeks, she has a piece in the paper. And she's been on the front page like for all those years. So, a couple of weeks ago she wrote an article about the Supreme Court. Indicating that the Supreme Court had gone activist and that's right wing activist indicating the Supreme Court was not could not be trusted to follow the law. This is really something this is a remarkable statement this is not just reporting the facts. She's also found that they're fragmented in their in their decision process and they're thinking their opinions and other articles. These are remarkable articles and people are reading them all over the place, but they're not straight fact. The analysis there. They provide characterizations conclusions expectations concerns issues that are huge in evaluating the way our democracy is working. And if our democracy is going to work it's going to have the First Amendment, it's going to have the power of journalism. It's got to have this. It's not just he said this and she said that as accurate or inaccurate as that may be. This is something to aspire to. I offered to you as a, you know, a journalism student and somebody who wants to have a career, a great career in journalism. Isn't that on the career path to to be able to do that to become such an expert to have such a depth of understanding that you can really see it for the reality of it, and you can express your opinion and have an effect on on how other people shape Oh, absolutely. I completely agree. Even the journalists that I love to are the ones who can take these stories digest the information and then tell their side of it and what they understood from the story that was being told. I definitely aspire to get to that level to a point where I can have these discussions with people and also present my stance. I think right now the focus really is just not compromising facts versus your analysis so making sure that you're still analyzing the information and putting forth a deeper discussion rather than he said he said, but not in a way that forces your opinion on to others encourages others to come forth with their opinions. I essentially as a journalist, all I want is for others to be confident and vocal about their concerns and their opinions and come together to debate and discuss that so that we can reach a deeper understanding. I think that's the best way to digest the facts and bring a profound analysis of the situation. Maria Park Homecheck, a think tech intern, a journalist at the Walter Cronkite School at journalism school at ASU and at the beginning stages of a great career in journalism. Thank you so much, Maria. Thank you for having me. Talk to you later. Thanks. Bye.


How can you tell if someone truly cares about you or if they're just trying to use you? Sometimes your emotions may cloud your judgment and blind you from the truth, even if it's been in front of you all along. Do you suspect that your friend, significant other, or family member might only be looking to take advantage of you? Well, we've got your back. Here are 10 warning signs someone is trying to use you. One, they do the bare minimum in your relationship. These friends will only do the occasional favor for you, and it's usually only small favors that don't inconvenience them or that they can benefit from as well. They do this to foster a sense of obligation in you towards them. Did they ask you to pay them back in some way or often in much greater value or effort? This kind of unfair treatment shows that they're only interested in what you can do for them and nothing else. Two, they're only nice at the beginning.  Then they suddenly shift into being rude, detached, or disrespectful once you grow closer? People like this can act sweet and thoughtful whenever they need something from you, but quickly turn cold and uncaring once they get what they want. Three, they only see you when they feel like it. Is your friend always busy when you ask them to hang out, but when they ask you they guilt-trip you to drop everything for them? They're never there for you when you need them, and they'll only reach out to you when they need something from you. As soon as something better comes along, they won't hesitate to ditch you. Four, there's an imbalance in the relationship. Does this person have a habit of exerting their dominance over you? Do they tell you what to do and decide everything for you? Watch out. An imbalance in the relationship could mean that this person is only looking to exploit you. They might force their plans, ideas, or opinions on you without ever bothering to ask what you want or how you feel about something. Five, they intimidate you into agreeing with them.   Because as long as you're too scared to stand up to them, they can take whatever they want from you. Six, they act differently behind your back.  For example, they gossip about you and don't defend you when someone else is talking badly about you. They might be secretly jealous of your success and try to take the credit for your achievements. They might have you fooled into thinking you can trust them, but lurking beneath all that phony friendliness is malicious intent. Seven, they're not really interested in getting to know you. There's a lot you know about them, but they hardly remember even the most basic information about you, despite the fact that you've been friends with them or in a relationship with them for a while now. It just goes to show that they're not really interested in getting to know you and don't pay any attention. They only care about how they can benefit from being friends or in a relationship with you. Eight, they don't respect your boundaries. Do they dump all their problems on you and constantly ask you to do things for them, even if you're busy or you don't want to? Do they borrow your things, but don't bother to take care of them or ask you for money and conveniently forget to pay you back? All of these things are definite red flags that tell you that this person has no respect for your boundaries and is already abusing your kindness. Nine, your relationship or friendship feels one-sided. Your relationship with this person is starting to feel very one-sided because you're the only one still making an effort.  But what are they doing? Nothing. They're unwilling to reciprocate your efforts or give you back as little as they can because they're happy with just receiving everything you have to give. And ten, they make you pay for everything. While this one seems obvious enough, we're often quick to excuse this kind of behavior when it's done by someone we care about. We might think they're just forgetful or irresponsible like that and we help them out anyways, but no one enough is enough.  It's time to accept the very real possibility that this person is using you for your money. Do any of these behaviors seem familiar to you? Do you have someone in your life who you fear might be trying to take advantage of you? Recognize the signs before it's too late. Keep your guard up against deceitful people and their malicious intentions and don't be afraid to keep a healthy distance from them. Let them know you're on to them and that you don't appreciate being exploited. No one deserves to be treated so unfairly and it's not selfish of you to want what's best for yourself from time to time. You don't need that kind of conditional love and friendship in your life. If you found this video helpful, please like share and comment below. See you in the next video.


Live from the Sands Convention Center, Las Vegas, Nevada, extracting the signal from the noise. It's theCUBE, covering HP Discover 2015. Brought to you by HP. And now your hosts, Dave Vellante and Jeff Frick. Welcome back to theCUBE, everybody. This is HP Discover 2015. Dave Vellante with Jeff Frick.  Sargillai is here as Senior Vice President of the Communication Solutions Business Unit at HP. Sargillai, thanks for coming on. Despite John up here. Yeah, I mean, it's unacceptable, really. That's all I'm talking about. You can just look right at him and tell him. So I know, so the first question, I know John would want to ask, so you're one of the architects of HP's cloud solutions. You really did a lot of work there, great work. And then when you moved over, everybody said, uh-oh, what's happening? Sargillai, and then all of a sudden, we're seeing this CSB explode. Huge group, thousands of people. This is a real deal. Yeah, well, you know, the identification of TELCO is a big opportunity for HP. And we decided to sort of put all the assets together that HP has, whether it's our CMS group, right, the communications media and services group, the stuff that we have from NFV and also now we just acquired Context Streams. So we were putting a bunch of assets together to go after this business. It's a big business for HP, big opportunity. So recent acquisition, maybe you start to talk about that, what was the play there? So, you know, we're obviously pushing very hard into NFV. One of the key elements of NFV is something called service chaining. So if you, when you're running communications, when you're running a service, it's actually usually a chain of different functions that you're doing in the service. For example, if you're browsing the internet, maybe you have video compression, maybe you have a firewall, some subscribers may have parental control, and so on. And so as you move into network function virtualization, the ability to chain these services is very important. And Context Stream has really good technology to do that. That's been proven with very large providers. And also they're doing it on top of the ODL. This is an open source solution for SDN. And so we felt that that would be a really good addition to our portfolio. So talk about what's going on in Telco. A lot of heterogeneity, they need to scale, they need to compete with the Amazon Netflix, you know, scenario that's going on. Talk about that problem and how you help. Yeah, so I mean, look, the interesting thing in Telco world is that the carriers have built very good solutions, good networks over the last two decades. And they've been very successful, right? You get good connectivity, LTE, good coverage, you get stronger internet to your house. So I mean, they've been very successful. However, increasingly they have two big challenges. The first challenge they have is that the monetization of those networks is increasingly being done by outsiders, the over-the-top players. So, you know, if they used to make a lot of money, for example, on text messages, remember, that used to be very expensive, billions of dollars a year, that's gone, right? If you are using WhatsApp, they're using Apple, it's gone. So more and more, the value add services, where the monetization is happening, is outside, people are using their network to monetize, but they're not getting the money. Now over-the-top players are getting the money. That's one problem. The other problem is that there's an explosion of bandwidth, obviously usage, we all know this, the video, Netflix, or on the phone, and increasingly they have to invest more and more and more to make the same money as they made before, even less. And so that's not a good strategy. Like, you know, if your OpEx is going up, your margin's going down, that's not a good one. Ask the publishers out there how that works. That's not, now they know this, okay? These guys are very smart, right?  We got to do something, right? And really, you know, they concluded that they have to get the technologies of the folks they're competing with over-the-top players. They have to move into sort of the cloud IT realm and leverage those technologies so they could be more agile and improve their cost structure. And that's how NFV, Network Functions Virtualization, came together. It's just a name, but it actually means many things. Which came from them. The providers actually came up with this. It's not suppliers, the suppliers are meeting it. And you know, that's about taking a lot of the functions that they have and moving them to a virtualized environment. But it's more than just virtualizing. I can talk later about the stages, but it's more than just virtualizing. It's really about adopting all the cool technology that IT and cloud has taken off over the last five, six years into the telcospace. Because remember, what they have today has been 20 years, right?  If you look at IT, you're not running stuff that we're doing 20 years ago. So in order to get that agility, they need to adopt these technologies now. It's not easy because these are big networks, complicated systems, but that's what network functions privatization is all about. So when I think of telcos, it's a lot of diversity, right? I mean, it's a lot of diversity in the enterprise. Telcos is probably even worse in terms of operating systems and, you know, software and the like. How does NFV solve that problem? So again, NFV is more of a paradigm in terms of today, most of their functions. And again, when you think about functions, it's important to understand when you're, when you, if you pick up the phone and you do a, you know, internet or something, browse the internet or look at a video, you know, routing and switching, what most people think is the key functions is a very small piece of what's going on there. There's video compression, there's IP resolution, there's caching, there's firewalls, there's identity management. So there's all these functions that have to happen in a chain to make all this come together. And historically, they were all on monolithic hardware devices because that was the state of technology when they had to put all these things up in the network in the last decade. So the first issue of NFV is, let's get, let's decouple the hardware from the software. So let's take this, you know, these are all software functions, let's decouple them. And at least, you know, we will have, we won't be tied to the slow hardware innovation and we can actually run this as a software paradigm. That's stage one.  The benefits it gives you is that, you know, you now at least aren't tied to the hardware. But it still doesn't give you the ability to move very fast because you're still using the same old monolithic software. It's just not tied to the hardware anymore. And stage two, what you call virtualization is where you say, hey, you know, if I'm running one thing on a server, why don't I run five things in a server? I'll need less servers, right? Now, there's some issues there because the performance, these are real-time systems. So, you know, you have to make sure you get the performance but that improves things as well because now you get better cost, right? Less capex and also less space and power. You can buy bigger servers to solve that problem, right? Well, it's not only that, but yes, you get some improvements but still a lot of their biggest, actually, impediment is actually operational costs. And that doesn't really improve that. Next stage is really what we call cloudification. And now you're not only, you know, virtualizing but you're now running in a cloud model which means that, you know, you have automation, you have elasticity. And so now you've improved also to the mode where you have a much better sort of management paradigm. Now, there's a little subtlety, and we talked about this in the past in the enterprise, that if you're using a cloud and the enterprise wasn't designed for the cloud, you get some benefits, but if the app wasn't designed for the cloud, then, you know, it's still a static app. I mean, you can do some things with it but it's not the scale-up model. And so that leads us to phase four, which is what we call decomposition where you really look at all the different functions across your different apps and figure out how to divide them into microservices that you can pass up into services. When they get to that phase, cloudification and decomposition, that's where you can really move sort of of a DevOps model. And now, not only can they, you know, operate in a much more efficient fashion, they can roll out new services much faster. Like, if you think of your cable box, for example, like, when's the last time you got a new feature on your cable box, right? So, you know, but we live in a society where you expect to get new features every day. So when they get to that phase, then they can now really compete in terms of agility. Now, it's a long process. This is, you know, these phases are going to take some time and they're not, you know, perfectly one after the other, right? There's some overlap, there's a long tail, but this is the journey they're on. So the first couple of phases deal with my sort of, what you said before is a monolithic server problem. So take that away. It's really a hardware. The coupling of the hardware. Okay, so that's, like I said, that's fine. But it sounds like from what you described, they have a software management problem. It's those...  And again, it's not really a challenge, it's more a question of where they have to go. I mean, everything they've built has worked really well, but, you know, like anything, at some point, there's new paradigms and new ways of doing things.  So, I mean, the OSS-BSS, which is really how they manage their whole network and do assurances, you know, that's something that was designed 10, 15 years ago. And so it's just not agile. And so as part of moving to the cloud, they also have to change their whole orchestration framework. And that's difficult. I mean, we have products, something, a product called NFP Director that comes out of CMS, for example, that allows you to do some of that bridging. But that's part of the whole thing, right? You got to move to a software model, you got to move to automation, you got to change the whole paradigm. It's not that different than what's happening in the enterprise. But there's a lot more constraints, because for example, when you virtualize, when you cloudify, you know, the apps, the performance matters. That's why we have something called carrier grade helium where we sort of made carrier versions of OpenStack that enable you to get some of the things you still need in the carrier. You need resiliency, you need fast failover, you need much better performance in terms of what you get from your hypervisor. And so there's a lot of things, it's a workload, but it's a very specialized workload. Presume, ultimately, they want homogeneity so they can scale their levels, right? I mean, that's the Amazon vision, right? Well, it's a bit, again. I mean, again, in terms of infrastructure homogeneity, they want to get to the point where, again, if you look at a very sort of gross level today, they have a bunch of different silos. There's a silo for your mobile, there's a silo for your TV, there's a silo for your internet cable, it's just a silo of things. What they want to move to is basically have a platform and that's what we're building. And on that platform, you run apps. And all the previous things that were appliance or special hardware, just an app. And that gives you that homogeneity, the ability to move apps around, to scale up, to scale down. Maybe you want certain apps to run a certain hour. For example, if someone's watching videos or to show or something, then you run a bunch of video compression apps and you pay for them when you use them. And when you stop using them, you don't pay for them. So it gives them a whole new level of flexibility on how they operate. In the enterprise business, you have to be careful as a supplier not to over-rotate to all the new stuff. You have to open stack, you have to open stack is great, but making a ton of money off of open stack today. So you can't just go all in. I mean, I'll rotate over to open stack. You have to service the existing stuff. It sounds like the telcos want to over-rotate, but they just can't. They can't get there. I mean, they want to get there as fast as possible, obviously, but it's very difficult because a lot of the issue, like the enterprise, but even more so is organizational. Because if you want to operate in sort of a horizontal fashion, your organization needs to be horizontal. You can't have these silos, like the network silo, the server silo, the operation silo, right? The dev silo, I mean, if you want to run dev ops, the dev and ops need to be together. So now they know this. Because again, it's not that they don't know this, but you have an existing system that you have to run. And so it takes time to do that. They definitely want to move there as fast as possible. It's interesting what you said about the suppliers. Not all the suppliers want to move there as fast as possible because it cannibalizes their existing business. We don't have that problem at HP because we're not in the existing system that's getting cannibalized. So for us, we're happy to go as fast as possible with them, but it's a journey. How would you organize to get them there? And is it aligned with the way they're organized? I mean, you don't want to necessarily be aligned the way they're organized in these silos. Well, I mean, this is why the carriers buy solutions. They don't buy boxes. And this is why specifically my group is called the communications solutions group as opposed to something else because we sell a solution.  We take stuff from our partners. A lot of our play is this big ecosystem that we've built because one of the things that the carriers want also is choice. They want to be locked in and we package it all up as a solution that they're going to put in the carrier. And some of the technologies we build ourselves, obviously. So it's really about solutions from their perspective. And so we've organized ourselves to be able to engage with them at a solution level. And part of what you have, you've got services in your organization. That's one of the pillars that you mentioned. Where did that come from? Was that homegrown within your organization? Did you pull it out of different parts of HP? So again, I mean, if you think about the, who they want to partner with on this journey, and this is what makes it so unique for HP, is that they want a supplier that obviously understands IT, has all the sort of generalized hardware that they would now move to, which is more generalized servers as opposed to specialized stuff, generalized storage, networking. And someone who has sort of open source cloud, which we obviously have as open stack, and someone that was in history of telco. And if you look at telco, we have a big telco asset because we have what's called the CMS portfolio, right? So HP has actually had for a long time something called CMS, which is our communications and media solutions group. And that group provides solutions for telcos. We have a lot of HLRs for registries, when you roam around the world, a lot of the time it's through our HLR, something that actually runs at six nines, if you can believe that, if that goes down, they're off the network. We have a lot of OSS and VSS management stuff that we've built, and we've leveraged that ability. So we actually have a very big portfolio, and my group has now sort of, that group moved into that group. So that's something that HP's had for a long time, but they weren't organized as part of the system. Which is very, and you've pulled that together. Yeah, we had a bunch of different groups, and as part of sort of building solutions for the telcos, we sort of put that together in one entity to go after this opportunity, because we see this, all the way, you know, Martin and Meg, and Antonio, they see this as a tremendous opportunity for HP. And you're a substantial organization, we're talking thousands of people, is that right? We have thousands, yeah, many thousands, many thousands, because again, there's a lot of service to delivery. So again, when you work with a telco, right, you have to deliver the service to them. They're not going to buy a bunch of boxes and string them together. And so a lot of my organization are actually doing service delivery, they're actually taking the solutions and applying them onsite, so they're spread over the world with the customer. What about partnerships? What are you doing there? Who are your big partners that we should be focused on? So again, it crosses many, many different elements, but if you, you know, we launched the OpenMV program about 18 months ago, and that was all about going after this NFV opportunity, and part of that is a whole partnership ecosystem, and there's different levels of partnership, because again, you have to think about all these monolithic silos now, the carriers want to consume apps. Well, who's going to write the apps, right? So you need partners to write the apps, right? We're providing the platform, right, ecosystem. So we have a lot of partners. First of all, we partner with the existing network group and providers, right? ALU is a very big partners, Val Suckertel, Nokia, even Ericsson. We have a strong partnership with Wind River. It's working with us to put together some of the carrier-grade stuff because they have a lot of history there. We have partnership with Intel. We have partnership with Rokade. A lot of the players who are going after this business, and then we have about 150, I think a bit more, ISVs that are actually writing apps for this area. And again, it's a homogeneous environment. It's a heterogeneous environment. For example, we bought Context Stream. They provide a certain solution on SDN. ALU has a solution that we sell, right? DCN from SDN, and that's very useful for certain applications. We support auto-controllers. So this is not a sort of one-size-fits-all. This is about building solutions with our partners for the carriers who ultimately have the final choice in how they want to build it. We've seen some consolidation there as Alcatel's getting acquired by Nokia, right? Is that, all right? So. Yeah, they're both very good partners, so all good. So that's fine, they're good there. Now, when you talked about microservices before, who, what role do you have in that? Is it the platform to build those microservices on top of? Do you actually? Yeah, so we like what happened in the cloud. Again, this is not something that we came inventive of. It's really, you're looking at the cloud paradigm.  And so this is really a cloud and networking come together. And so it helps sort of living on both sides of the house. We believe that over time, right, there'll be more and more services as part of the platform. And so we will be providing some of them, but some of them will come from partners as well, right? You can see a library of service coming from partners. But we believe that increasingly, a lot of the apps might be a bit thinner and the services will be thicker, right? If you look at some of the cloud apps that we were building, even mobile apps, right? The apps are no longer thick as they used to be and that gives you the agility. So we will be building some of that capability, but we will also be leveraging partners for that as well. And what about developers? Developer outreach, you know, we furrier. It's always talking to whoever, whether it's young John's or other parts of HP, critical lever, what are you doing there? Yeah, so we're doing a lot there actually. Again, part of the thing that the carers want to do where we're very active is if you look at what's happened in that space, let's say on the last few decades, the barrier to entry was used, right? And therefore you saw very few suppliers in Telcos because you needed $100 million before you could actually show up to Telco, run a park, do something, and no VC is going to fund that or when you can go do some web thing. And so, let's say it'd be successful, at least you can believe it, right? And so one of the whole thing, purpose of NFV is to create an environment that fosters the ability of much more innovation and much more competition. And again, part of the open NFV sort of program is labs around the world that enable our partners, and again, partners, ICVs, they don't know, it's not exclusive to come up and without investing anything in the hardware and run their apps on our platform with the carriers we have around the world, we have in Europe, we have in Israel, we have in Korea, now obviously we have in the US as well, and to be able to show their abilities. And so we're fostering a whole ICV community to enable that. And again, the good news is these are generalized APIs. Like if they write to IRPIs, it doesn't make it proprietary to HP. We're just trying to build the ecosystem. We believe if we have a vibrant open ecosystem, it will benefit everybody. So if you're writing something that works in our ecosystem, it's going to work on our open stack as well. We think if the ecosystem is very vibrant, it will help everybody. And that's why we're working very closely with folks like Intel, WinRiver, advance of other folks to sort of build this sort of open ecosystem that allows this sort of much more innovation to happen in these apps so that smaller companies, a 20-person company, a 50-person company can build very interesting apps in this space. And that ultimately will help the providers get a lot more innovation in their system. So serious, you guys are really serious about this big business. How big is the market opportunity? What's the TAM? I, again, so there's lots, it's tens of billions of dollars. There's different ways of cutting it. Because the good news from an HP perspective is that every element that this market, well, 90% of this market is all greenfield for us. First of all, that's always good. That's always good. You're always, it's always better to be the disrupted and disrupted. And I've been disrupted. So that's the first thing. The other good news is that across the board, there are revenue opportunities for us. Because first of all, a lot of proprietary hardware is turning into servers. Well, we make a few servers at HP. And pretty good ones. Then there's the cloud layer. You know, and we make a pretty good open source cloud layer, right? Then there's orchestration. And we have NFE director and orchestration. The app ecosystem, where a lot of the money is going to be there, we actually don't want to do two months, because we want to leave it to our partners. Right, HP is a very strong partnering company. But there's a lot of revenue opportunities. There's obviously a huge services opportunity. And I have thousands of services people in the field that can do this. So it's a, from a monetization perspective, that's a huge opportunity for HP. And we're seeing, I mean, it's growing.  And then it's growing like a rocket because the industry is shifting. And so really, you know, when I talk about this was the EC and was Megan Martin, I mean, it's a question of, you know, there's a tornado, we have to cast a tornado. But, you know, when you cast a tornado, it's hard. It's hard. It's hard, people get hurt. It's hard. And so we're trying to move, but, you know, the good news is, again, these things require upfront investment. And, you know, Meg and Martin and Antonio and folks that have been 100% behind, made a big investment even before my time when it started with Bethany. And, you know, it's proven to be correct. Investment has worked out, it's taking off for us. And so we're very, very excited about it. That's awesome. Well, it's great to have you back in the cubes or educating us on all this stuff. And we'd love to extract your knowledge and really appreciate it. Great, great to be here in spite of the fact that I've heard it's locked off.  Louncing around somewhere. From Santa Cruz right now. Good stuff. All right, keep it right there, everybody. We'll be back with our next guest right after this. This is The Cube. We're live from HV Discover.


Good morning. I would like to take this opportunity to just briefly make some remarks, and I thank Irina for sitting with the floor. I want to welcome all of you to Mexico, all of the commissioners. This is a very important commission, and the quality of the participants, the breadth of the participants, the wide expertise of all of you show clearly its relevance. I want it on behalf of the government of Mexico and myself to wish and to give the warmest welcome to His Excellency Mr. Paul Carame, President of Rwanda. The government of Mexico recognizes the impressive economic and social progress in Rwanda under your presidency. We also appreciate your personal contributions to the definition of the new post-2015 development agenda. Mexico really looks forward to working closely with Rwanda at the UN as well as bilaterally. The president has a particular interest in establishing sound political and economic relations with countries in Africa, and Rwanda is clearly a priority for us. As Mr. Carlos Slim said, we are confident that this will not be your first visit to Mexico and that we will have the opportunity to welcome you here again. I also want to welcome Dr. Hamadou today, director of ITU, and reiterate to him the full support of Mexico in promoting universal access to all information and communication technologies, including, of course, the use of broadband. I'm very pleased again to coincide with Dr. Rina Bokova, the director general of UNESCO and vice president of this commission, who has had a brief but very intensive official visit to Mexico. I do thank you for the most valuable support to the implementation of our most recent education reform. It is really an honor for me to welcome all members of this broadband commission. I would like to include in that welcome Dr. Gian Chandra, the UN assistant secretary general for the list developed and locked countries. And congratulate Mr. Carlos Slim for his initiative to convene in Mexico this important session of the broadband commission. The government of Mexico fully shares the objectives and goals of this commission. Today's deliberations will certainly help to a better understanding of the importance of broadband networks, services, and applications for generating economic growth and achieving social progress. Your report will be an important input to the elaboration of public policies and the strengthening of public and private partnerships. Expanding broadband access in every country is key to accelerating progress in many fields. And it's absolutely crucial for the accomplishment of the Delegate Development Goals and the Development Agenda beyond 2015. The applications of broadband, as has been already pointed out, go from assisting governments in the adoption of gender policies to education, health, food security, promoting the advancement of science and technologies for development. In today's world, broadband has been conceived as part of the basic infrastructure of every country, just like roads, airports, electricity, or water facilities. It is a unique and powerful tool for accelerating development. And it is remarkably cost-efficient because of its impressive returns on investment. The government of Mexico fully supports the commission's view that high speed, high capacity, and internet connections are an essential element in modern society, conferring broad social and economic benefits. It is within this context that Mexico has engaged and made telecommunication reform a very relevant part of our agenda. Mr. President and Mr. Slim, please allow me to conclude these brief remarks by congratulating you both for having convened this important session of the Broadband Commission in Mexico and to welcome all commissioners to my country. I wish you all a very pleasant stay in this very beautiful city. We look forward to the proceedings and conclusions of this important forum. Thank you. Thank you.