Welcome everyone. It's the Jenkins user experience special interest group today is March the first 2023. Great to have everybody here topics that I've got on the list for today include keyboard usability UI improvements recent UI improvements what's coming in UI improvements deprecation of Jenkins JavaScript libraries work in progress. Let's put those as and user feedback had a good post from Jerry in the community on on usability and usability concerns. Are there any other topics that need to go and one more which is that I need someone who is willing to take over the meeting. I can stay for about 20 minutes but then I need to hand control over to someone else to take, take the leadership of the meeting do I have a volunteer. Sorry really did was did did I hear you volunteering or was that not a volunteer. Nope. Okay. So, given that then we may have to, if we don't get a volunteer we may have to end the meeting at 20 minutes because I, I don't have much opportunity in terms of flexibility on my end time. I'm happy to learn. Oh okay Christina if you're willing then what we'll do is at about 20 minutes in. I'll transfer ownership of the meeting to you. Let's be sure that I've shared this so that you can edit the notes. I'm a terrible note taker but I'll do my best. Well and that's, that's welcome to the club. Okay, great. Thank you. Thanks for being willing. All right. So, any, and I don't hear any other proposed agenda topic so let's go ahead. Christina you want to take on improve keyboard usability first. Yeah. So, due to some other priorities I haven't made as much progress on this as I'd like so kind of where we're at is we need to. At cloud bees at any rate. I'm not sure if the accessibility work done within the community. We need to achieve WCAG level a compliance. To do so there are some major kind of issues within the open source code that we need to fix. It's not easy enough like I don't none of them are tremendously heavy lifting they're all front and front end in nature. But the issue is on our side like as we go through this all of this accessibility work. We need to kind of patch our process for merging things and to say the unified release branch because otherwise we're always going to be chasing this and we're not going to be able to say like yes we have a process in place that makes sure that any things that are accessible. So, I kind of need to touch base with some people internally to figure out like kind of a best practice that we could set I was hoping to piggyback on what's happening with tips compliance, not in the same way but kind of use that same model perhaps to pull requests. But I can walk you through. If there's interest or maybe this warrants. Is there an accessibility SIG. There is not. There's not. Is there an accessibility initiative on the SS. They're only within the context of the UX SIG. Okay. Okay. So, so yeah, I mean I can walk you through the issues if you'd like sorry here's someone trying to talk. Go ahead. Was I interrupting someone. Nope, I think go ahead. All right. So, obviously, I mean, I'm sure you all have like some baseline familiarity with with accessibility. But I think it's kind of until now the way we've tried to tackle it is like here's a laundry list and an Excel file. You know, hit stuff and try to, you know, fix fix the broken without really like building a process and I hate the word process because everybody like has baggage with it but we need to establish a workflow to make sure that like from the get go or we're facing errors were actually like meaningfully staying on top of it and factoring it into new work. So, currently, there's some issues with kind of all all areas of the main navigational area like the main nav breadcrumbs the sidebar. So what we're choosing to tackle this is when it so we have customers that are asking for it. And when it comes to accessibility audits like intent really matters. Right. So, no one will care about an alt tag on a spacer image, if they're stuck in a keyboard trap in the breadcrumb navigation and they can't get it. So I think that, you know, it's far more useful to fix the foundation, like the bigger issues, which are the scary ones but they're not. And get those working so that at least a user can navigate through a page from start to finish using an accessible device if they need to, and then the lower hanging fruit we can tackle kind of as we go so I'm kind of breaking up my story in phase one phase two phase three phase one is is the kind of framework navigation around everything else. So the main nav breadcrumbs and sidebar, and especially if you have a build in progress.  So, I can create tickets for the open source to fix them and I'm happy to. I mean, accessibility stuff is kind of my thing like I'm happy to work with whomever as much as is needed to kind of make sure that what's getting done is is up to those standards accessibility standards. I would kind of like to get our internal merge process sorted. And maybe that can happen concurrently maybe I'm overthinking that. I'm a little reluctant to just throw tickets in the queue. So, so I'm not sure Christina so you're concerned there of. If you found a keyboard navigation issue in Jenkins. Yeah, it seems reasonable to me at least to say, I submit an issue. Then anybody could potentially pick it up and work it. Can you tell more about what your concerns are why you wouldn't want to do it like. On our end, like, currently there's no. There would need to be an approver on the ticket that probably myself right now at least, who can make sure that when the ticket is done it is actually functioning. And that's not just the keyboard navigation that would be making sure that all the area tags that are in place for that block of code, things like that. Okay, so, so, so what you're saying is if a JIRA, JIRA issues created in the Jenkins JIRA, you'd like to have you or somebody, somebody you you assign would also be involved in assessing hey did that achieve the objective that. That sounds like a real positive actually to me I don't think there's going to be any complaints about extra testing from people. Okay, great. What does it currently work now like if a ticket is created does that person become an approver like or is there an extra step to make sure that. No, no, we would also want to make sure that any subsequent changes, maintain it. Yeah, and to maintain it in subsequent changes. The usual way is test automation that checks that it's still well behaved. I'm not sure if that works in this case. Don't doesn't really. There are levels of automated testing for accessibility can do for the point we're at we really do need to do that manual testing. Okay. So could we mention lost in in the implementation. Okay, so so if you wrote if you raised a JIRA ticket that said hey there's this accessibility problem. If you watch that ticket you'll see when someone submits a pull request because they'll usually link to the pull request, and then you can go watch the pull request and actually mention yourself on it or, or make your own review comments on the pull request as well that also gives you a prototype build that you can use to perform testing so so I think I think the process we've already got can work for you. Okay. Sure, I'll give it a try. For sure. Okay, so I will go and make those tickets then I guess. Okay, so maybe maybe what you and I could do is let's let's plan some time where I can talk you through some of those steps so that you you don't run into unnecessary bumps and bruises. I think that'd be great. Yeah. Great. Okay. And once we start and I think it'll start to shake out kind of what what we do from there. Great. All right, thank you. Any questions or concerns from others on the idea of improving keyboard usability. Is this problem only in taking score or is this also in a lot of plugins. That's going to be subsequent phases, like right now with the level of issues in those areas, a user realistically using adaptive technology could not get to the plugins. So, I kind of want to fix the pathways first. And so first phase will be the navigation areas. And then we will start to get into plugins and things like that and those will probably be its own thing that we have to work out to, since the responsibility for those areas maybe distributed. You know, like, we'll, we'll have to kind of figure that out as we go. But if you ever are being scrutinized for accessibility compliance issues. If we kind of tackle it this way, it demonstrates that we have an understanding of the major issues and we are making like an honest attempt to rectify them. Versus if we fix something that you couldn't get to anyways. We kind of, we want to, we want to be, we want to be on the good side of things where we're demonstrating that like hey we've got a meaningful path and we get it, like we get what the issues are versus kind of going backwards like that. But it will happen. Yeah. And there will probably be some that are perfectly fine. And others where you know, great. Any other questions or concerns around improving keyboard usability. Okay, next topic I put on the agenda was what's happened recently in UI improvements specifically the one I've seen is pipeline graph viewer. Tim, this is this one that you wanted to talk to you want me to talk to it. I think the, the additions that have been made the changes in log viewing and whatnot are really brilliant. Yep, I can show what I think just playing. I was checking si jeans IO has said I think it. Pretty sure it does. Yep. Yeah, I'll just share my screen quickly if that's okay. You bet. So we've had a few contributions recently on the pipeline. Graph viewer over the last couple of weeks. Going back. Yeah, so we can now transition between previous and next builds on the graph and console views or show I'll show them all in a second. The logs that are complete rework from a tree on the side to kind of a main view collapsible card section. And the sort of thing. Scripted parallel stages have been improved nested script stages. So that enables the same behavior for this and this and declarative and script or some special hack stopping. That working and stage labels in the tooltip now show the full text. So here's an example. So this is the next build and previous build. You can open and close all the logs here and if I go build you get all the output in here. I should be a button for swapping in between them. I'm not sure why that's missing. And then if we go to this is a failed build somewhere. And so you scroll in here. There's a lot more output and you can also request more output. So you can previously you're stuck. If there was any logs missing here, but you can now click to get the rest of it. So yeah, basically a major rework of the logs for the pipeline graph view plugin anyway. Still more work to be done. But it's a lot better than before. Thanks very much. So it looks like Tim Brown did the work and you've had two or three contributors. So it's not just you who's working on pipeline graph view now. Yes, so Tim Brown did the core work. And I think Stuart wrote this and Mike Gelfand has done a bit of cleanup as well. That's great. Thank you. Trying to stop screen sharing but I can't find the button. Oh yeah, let me see if I can find it. Don't seem to have a control. Here it is. Found it. Got it. Great. So I'm at a point where I need to transition. I'm going to assign Christina as host and Christina, you're now, you're now going to be the host. So you'll need to share your screen. Let me paste a link to the notes for the meeting into the into the meeting chat so that others can open that if needed. Okay, so there are the meeting notes. So Christina, are you able to open up those notes and start sharing your screen? Yep. Perfect. All right. Thank you. Oh, it did not share the right screen. I don't even know what screen that is. Well, I can see I see the Jenkins UX say sig agenda and notes. Do you. Yeah. Okay. Do you still see it now. Yes. Okay. I'm going to go in firm as well that they can see. So you're scrolling up now. March 1, 2023 is roughly at the top. There we go. Okay. All right. Along with me. Sorry. Thank you. I'm going to disconnect at this point. My apologies.  Have a good day, Mark. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Pipeline graph your improvements. Was there anything more to say in that for that topic? Are we going to. What's going on? A little bit or some a little bit into the details. Because it's a little bit. Large. No. The other way around as well. Oh, there. So there is too much. On the left and the right. Okay. It's getting better. Okay. All right. Okay. All right. So where were we? What's coming in UI improvements? Who would like to speak on that? Tim, do you know if we have something in our progress currently from young? I'm not sure if he's. Preparing something new. He was hoping to get here. He's stuck in another meeting at the moment. He said it might make it halfway through. Let me just have a look at what he's got open at the moment. I think I reviewed one pull request, which is about using a tipi for the bread crumb. Menus as well. If I remember correctly, there was currently one pull request in Jenkins call. Yeah. So yeah, there's a tipi one that's been open for a while. The only one he's opened recently is the simplified settings name, which is posted in the chat. That's as a follow up to the. To the search. Search box of managed Jenkins. To simplify the name. So not everything has configure at the start of it. And since there's configure system, it's system set to configure global tools and something. It's tools. There's a screenshot on the PR. We're just waiting. I think everything on that page is on that PR is fine. It's just. I want to check that the acceptance test pass, but the acceptance tests are broken at the moment. So we need to fix the acceptance tests before we can continue on any of these PRs really. These are the, that's the list of all the PRs. It's quite, there's quite a few open. I think at least a couple of them are waiting on Daniel's feedback or someone to investigate a couple of issues. The other one was the card layout or the dashboard on mobile. I'm sure if there was anything outstanding there. I'm not sure if you can see the chat Christina, but I might just be with opening up that for a question, having a scroll through. See what people think. Sure. Anyone have any. Anything to add. Do we have so many users that are looking at. Jenkins using the mobile phone. I think so. There's a number of people who do use it on their phones. If they're doing something from get up quickly and then just checking something. Do you guys have analytics. Or is it just. I don't think the telemetry we collect collect statistics, which browser you use. No, I think it's just more about Jenkins and Jenkins version and plugins. I don't. As far as I know, we don't have that information. I'm curious myself. That's why I asked. Okay. But yeah, so more feedback. Welcome on that poor quest. And a profusion of Jenkins JavaScript libraries. So an update to share them. I think this is a topic of the last meeting. Yeah. They are deprecated now and I removed them from my instance. And everything's still working. So. I think it's fine. Or did someone have problems with. Removing them. No, I think I remember. So work in progress. That's kind of what we just went through. Tickets are open. Is there anything else to add to the work in progress. Yeah. We have a lot of different names. At least we already had or simplified setting names and quad layer. Yeah. And for future, let's I'm not sure. What the state is, I think we can skip this one. Till the next meeting. Sure. Use your feedback feedback in the. I'm disappointed. Post. Community. That's me or from. Hi, Gary. My camera. Yeah. What else can I say. Regarding this. It's quite a lot already. And it's. Becoming more and more with time. Yeah. This is a kind of new Tira where everybody can put something into it. Or is all these points from you. These are all my personal thoughts or. Detections. Yes. I looked at this. Yeah. Couple of things. And I think for a lot of them, I think, yeah, there's really a problem. We need to change that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure how we can handle these. Making Tira issues. Like for excessive accessibility. I'm not sure if that helps. I think the main problem is we have, we have not. Enough developers to fix these things. I think so. Is it Bruno? Who's talking because there are two commenters. It's really talking. Yeah. I am Bruno, but he's a woman knows everything about that.  It's my name here too. So everybody recognizes it. So yeah. I think you, you have a lot of points which are. Really correct. And for instance, making. The icons theme. This is the thing we, we talked. I think almost a year now. But we actually found nobody who is. Yeah. Making progress on this thing. But there are things in the general settings, but they don't apply to. To icons. Just Carlos.  I'm not sure if we already support icons before. Yeah.  Dark. And. Yeah. The dark thing. Plug in came in. We had a lot of themes that supported different icons. So this should be possible. Still. I think I'm not sure. So I'm not. So deep in this CSS problems if it's possible, but. Since it was possible with the green balls plug-in was. So one of the favorite plugins that changed the icons of the balls. Formerly. And I think something similar would work with the new icons. As well. The old balls were graphics images. Yeah. Bitmap images. Yeah. PNG or chief or whatever. Yeah. The new icons are SVG vector graphics.  And I don't know if it's the same. Process. To replace them. Within it. I don't know either. Yeah. In theory. Yes. But. In theory. Brexit is only pure. Okay. Yeah. If it's not. This is something someone needs to investigate first. It's possible. So this was my assumption that it is. But I never tried it on my own. But what about in general? Should I create cheerer tickets for each of the points and somebody or a group or a meeting decides rejected or yes will be implemented somewhere. Yeah. I think at least to have a decision if we go for yes or if we go for no, that would be helpful at least. I'm not sure if it's make sense for every point, but for for instance, the second point here with the drop downs. Yeah. Because I agree. Some of the points are just out of personal taste. Yeah. I know that. It's just my opinion, but I said it. Yeah. Sorry, I can't speak to the icon question. Number two is definitely almost completely covered by the accessibility work that's going to be that a tick will be created for. This month. Along with a few other things. Anytime there's a inconsistent browser. Behavior those will be captured. In the accessibility work that's going the underway. That's. I think I can say to that one. For number two, at least. Sorry, I meant the two. There are two tools on the main two. The main two. Yeah. So this is something. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not sure if it helps to show it actually on screen, but I think there are a lot of points which make sense to. Right to Tira. So we can discuss it in Tira. And. Maybe we can get some votes as well. So we see is it's a common sense or is it just the single. Opinion so. I'm not sure if it's there are a lot of issues. And. Normally, we just need someone to, to, to look after them. And currently we don't have someone looking after them. So I'm. Not sure if what to do. Actually. Yeah. I can offer to solve some of these issues points. Which can be solved with a theme. By myself by creating a theme. That looks more like the classic view. Yeah. Maybe it's it's just a rough guess. It's a third of the points. Could be could be handled by a team. And according to him. Yeah. So these are. Not really issues, but yeah. Matter of taste. Yeah. But other things like. Yeah. Yeah. Hidden action items. Action controls widgets. Yeah. Which pop up on hover. And then I have to move to them in another step and get them. Yeah, this cannot. This is. CSS selection. Selections of the CSS library behind. Yes. So what do you think. It's the best thing to create issues for most of them. And individually it's there are so many. I'm not sure. Yeah. If the process has to be followed. Then. Cheer issues are needed. Yeah. I know that because I work with cheer on my job. As well. Daily. I don't want. And putting all these. Hmm. This major. Points into cheer issues. Is. Why the work. Yeah. I don't want to avoid investing this work. And then. Nobody looks at it for months or even years. Yeah.  Will not be implemented. Yeah. Then my time is wasted. For me personally. Yeah. That's why I'm asking. So we already had some you X. Yeah. Reviews. For Jenkins a couple of years ago. And this was a 200 pages document. And we pasted it in Sierra and actually nobody looked at it. So. Yeah. So I think for each of these issues you need someone driving them. And we currently don't have someone driving them. Yeah. Yeah. We currently don't have someone driving them. The only one. Really working in UX is. Tim and Jan. At least for core. So I'm not sure. What. What do you exactly mean by driving. Having someone who is poking. Others to do it or do it. He knows herself. What do you mean by driving. Driving the process or driving the actual work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The actual work. We currently have nobody doing actual work in Jenkins anymore. So. Sorry for being that open. But I'd like to be clear. In my speech. So. This can be summed up to. If you would like to have it. Do it. Yourself. Yeah. I accept it. And it would be a nice. Challenge for me is a. Developer and part time. Designer. To. To. To learn these things and to do it and then. See the result and be happy with it. Yeah. It's no problem for me. The only problem is time. Job. Which is challenging itself. But. I. I'm allowed to. To retire in six and a half years. Maybe then. And then at least then I have.  I have to. To investigate how to do it. Because I have. Some ideas how it could. Be done, but I'm not sure. I'm just guessing. And then this takes. To become used to the things to. Read. To get information that are not in. The manuals. Yeah. And. Who is the. Right contact person for a specific question. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The clues we don't have someone. Who is responsible for it. So the best thing is to post to the UX group. In the Gitter channel. And I think the best thing also would be to pick. Your. Most important point. And try to start with that. And leave the others. On the left for. For that moment. And just start with one point. And get a discussion about this point. And are you ex meeting notes. Most important for me. For my. For my point of view. Most important. Yeah. Now for you. For me. That's the easier decision. Yeah. Proposing in the chat. To create an epic ticket to summarize all those points. And each of them. In a separate ticket under Jira. If you know how to do that. Please get it. Don't hesitate. Because Gitter is fine. But the thing is. Information tends to be lost. Because it's not really well structured. And so we have discussion in Gitter. And then also something more formal. Within Jira with an epic. That's a good idea. For me. Thank you for proposing. You can follow the chat. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's how. And issues. Yeah. Yeah, but I think it. It's okay if you have an epic. But I think it would work with labels as well. So I think. Don't put. 20 points in it now. Which will never get finished because nobody is there. Just start with one. And then maybe you can. Provide some. Yeah. Even if you don't provide the code, you can provide some sketches or screenshots or how to make it better. Or you can investigate how to. Yeah. To replace SPGs in a theme. For instance, these are things. Yeah. Which need to be done. Okay. And. How are the chances that. If I. Come to a. Proposal. How are the chances that it will be accepted by the. Community. Whoever is in charge. To accept it. Yeah. Because I had my experiences in life. And I had so many ideas. And I went to. The. To be. Yeah. That you invested this time to create. For your. For interest for your corporation. Yeah. But sorry. No, we don't implement it. And all the time. Okay. I learned a lot during the investigations and. And the research. But yeah. There was no final recite. Other than. I don't want to waste. Time. I don't have so many time left in my life. Yeah. So. That's a good point. So I think the best thing is to start with this one topic. And. First of all, before you implement something discuss it on. Gitter. So we can have a discussion around this point. And if. A lot of people agree, then we can start with an implementation. And maybe it's a draft pull request. So we can get feedback very early.  Yeah, the right direction or not. You're right. It does not make sense that you are now. Taking. Break of two months. Working and presenting everything. And then we say, I know that doesn't make sense. So. I think early feedback would help. So even if you. Even if you. Don't implement something and provide a screenshots or. Mockups or whatever. It helps to discuss the topic. Okay. Yeah, sounds good. Yeah. So and I'm curious what, which is your most important topic. Yeah. I. Yeah. Yeah. It's a minor issue. That's just personal taste. Okay. Yeah, maybe the. The drop down. The hidden drop down manager. In the. Bread crumb. Yeah. Yeah. Which. Replaces link targets. Yeah. Distracting. Because you expect to get there. And an action is staking. Yeah. Yeah. There will be a ticket coming for the drop down menus in the breadcrumbs. Like any possible redundant work that might happen there. Yeah. Yeah. But it's only a ticket coming or an implementation as well. From our side. Yes. If not. If not exact, but heavily, heavily guided so that we can make sure that it's, it's. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Another topic that covers a few of my points is screen state. Which is wasted. Yeah. By vertically spacing. Increase scrolling. Yeah. It means if you, if you in the, in the sidebar menu. Yeah. On the dashboard there are. The. And the big executors below. The bigger the menu. The, the total of the menu is above. Yeah. Yeah. And I worked in a company where we had so many that I had to scroll to see all the, the running bills, currently running bills. Yeah. And scrolling is bad. If it is avoidable by a condensed menu, for instance, in this case. Yeah. Yeah. It's the same. Yeah. And the bigger, the, the vertical space. Yeah. The longer you have to go to move the mouse to come to a menu item. It's just, just a few centimeters. Yeah. But it sums up. In an eight hour day and in a 50 hour month and in a month. Yeah. I think the sidebar is something which is young also trying to improve and to. Yeah. To restructure because yeah, currently there are too many items in the sidebar. And I think he made already some progress. But currently the progress is only visible in the Jenkins. Yeah. So, yeah. I think that's something which I'm not using at all. And so I'm using configuration as code. So I'm just going to see the build results. And yeah, nobody's working on that topic. Currently. So. Yeah, this is something we can improve. I think. Okay. Do we want any follow up on this or just leave it for discussions and get her and then. Take a creation for now. Yeah. And then we'll bring it in the next meeting this one. Gary, if that's fine for you. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, totally fine. Yeah. Okay. Thank you, Jerry. Jenkins three night for. Resolved. That's good. Anything else to add to that. Is that everything then that we want to cover this week this month. So everything. Thank you. Thank you very much, everybody. And we'll see us one month. Okay. Bye. Good month everyone. Bye.


I'm not sure if you can tell. Meers, turn right on Washington Street, NN 210. Temperature right now is zero degrees Celsius, 32 Fahrenheit, just messy. Washington Street, NN 210. The drive down here from Ontario yesterday was pretty wild. I crossed at International Falls, Minnesota from Fort Francis, Ontario. If you watched yesterday's video, you'll know that we had a four and a half hour delay in Fort Francis waiting for our customs paperwork to clear. That was fun. But it kind of worked out in our favor because while we were waiting there, the storm was here. By the time I got here, the storm was gone. It had just left all the snow. But the snow was so thick and so heavy, as you can see around me here, it was pulling trees down over the highway. It was wild. It was way too dark to film. I got some footage of it, but you can't even see. So I just left it out of there. I don't like including footage and explaining. I know you can't see it, but I can just tell you today, right? The roads were already plowed. So I'm guessing it was probably the plow drivers maybe. They have a chainsaw on board, I don't know. Because they had plowed through these little spots that had been cut out of the trees. Because the trees had fallen over the road and someone with a chainsaw had come along and cut them up so that one lane was open. That was crazy. But you can still see on the trees around here how they're just sagging down on either side of me here, right? Heavy, heavy snow. But a shirt does make it look like a winter wonderland. It really puts you in the mood for Christmas. This is what Christmas is supposed to look like. I just don't like it when it's snowing on Christmas. That's a bummer, but right before Christmas, get a snowfall like this, that is perfect. So we've got our new trailer behind us now. It's a tri-axle step deck, exactly like the one we brought here. Just with three axles instead of two. And I'm just gonna check the weather real quick because it's snowing here. It is snowing. I don't think there's a winter storm warning in effect yet, but in 95% snow, 94% here now in Thief River Falls, Minnesota, Steinback weather. So it's minus seven back home right now. It's gonna go down to minus nine, minus, ooh, minus 11 tonight at Celsius.  Okay, so as I drive north from here, we should get out of this snow, can drop this trailer and then get back to my shop before the snow starts again, or as it's starting before it gets bad. Looks like around nine o'clock tonight, it's gonna start snowing pretty heavy again. And then all through tomorrow, is that what it looks like? It's snowing all through tomorrow. Good thing I'm gonna be sitting at home. Oh wait, no, I'm not. We have a family gathering. Good thing we got a four-wheel drive on both our vehicles.  I guess he's not so little, he's long, but he's little and long. He has to get some teeth removed. He's got some infections in his gums. And we're also getting a window replaced in our house as well that day. And on that day, it's supposed to be minus 17, so I don't know if they're gonna wanna do the window install on that day or not, but that'll be up to the installer. It's not that cold, but he said if it's too cold, they won't be able to do it. We'll see, so I got a few days at home coming up. But before we can enjoy that, we have to get home safely. I just passed my dad. I should've got it on camera.  This is Carlstad, Minnesota. That car in front of us there traveling in the same direction as us is bothering me. Let me tell you why. The roads are ice-covered, right? Well, no, they're snow-covered. They're not that icy, but they're snow-covered and they're slippery. We're being careful, right? Well, he was being uber, uber careful out on the highway outside of town, right? Doing like, I don't know, 45 mile an hour in a 60 zone. I wasn't really complaining. I was like, okay, it's a little slippery. We'll go slow. And we get into town and the guy is flying through town, speeding through town. I think I've mentioned that before. I don't understand that habit. A lot of people do this. Maybe they don't even notice. They go super slow on the highway and this happens when there's no snow, too. It happens on good days, when there's dry pavement. People drive really slow out in the middle of the highway when nothing else is around and then you get them into town and they're through a construction zone and they just fly, fly through town, fly through the construction zone speeding and they get back out onto the main highway and they're doing 20 under the limit again. This is the strangest thing. You know where I noticed that a lot? Quebec. A lot. Now that I'm thinking about it, I used to drive out that way a lot more, right? And driving Quebec. The strangest driving habits. It's so common there that people drive 20 below the speed limit and it's so odd when you come out of Ontario where people on average drive 20 over the speed limit. Like regular cars, not trucks, obviously. And then they plug up the highway, right?  And then you get into a town or city or through a construction zone and they're gone. I don't know. I think I'm the only one that notices these things. I think I might be the only one who notices them. So the road just let pray we're gonna take her easy. We're on our way home. The snow has slowed down since we were in Thief River Falls. Temperatures minus six degrees Celsius outside and it's supposed to get a little colder as we get closer to home. But I think we'll be able to get old blue into the shop nice and warm and tucked in for the weekend before the snow starts again tonight. We'll see. Well, this is nice. That's the Canadian border right there and this storm just rolled in. Just a couple of miles back and suddenly there's Kablamo. So it's supposed to be clearing up a little further up. So I'm hoping this is a short space right here at the border where this wind is so bad. We're so close to home. I just really want to get home and get to the shop. Old blue needs to sit inside for snow storms like this. Okay, it's clearing up a little bit here. That's good. At 600 meters, slide right on. Old Selkirk Highway, Highway 29 in bed. Height to the left, 1.4 kilometers. Thanks. Nice and easy. Nice and easy. I really hope this does clear up and that they don't close the highway. I guess I should word that differently. I hope they don't have to close the highway. Ooh, but it's slippery all right. It's very slippery right here. So we'll see. We'll see if it's true that it's gonna clear up and if not, we may have to make the call and shut her down here. This is my coworker right in front of me here. So we'll see what happens. This winter so far though, eh? Man, it's not even winter time yet. Keep calling it winter, it's still autumn. December 21st is the first day of winter. This is still fall. Oh, it's scary. Nice. I just pulled into the parking area here. Clear off my taillights of snow. Make sure everything's, all the lights are visible. My buddy Mike right here beside me cleaned his taillights off too. I don't even know if he noticed me doing it but he came in parked beside me and he's doing some paperwork and I cleaned off my taillights and I went over and quickly cleaned his off too. So I was following him up, following him up for the last half hour and I could see that the snow was starting to cover his taillights. I got to hardly see him. So he should be good to go now. It's supposed to clear up just down the road. So here we go. Gonna be slow moving for a little bit. The rumors are right and the weatherman is right. We should be out of this in a few minutes. Lights are still purple. But if I remember correctly, I think there's less purple ones now. So maybe they're slowly replacing them. I mean, that was not working all together. 100 meters, keep to the left on. Gort Selkirk Highway, Highway 75. Ah, it's already starting to clear up. We've only gone about a half a mile. We're on this road for 18 kilometers. We'll catch you guys when we get to the yard. We made it. Well, the blizzard did die out. I cut across the 59, which runs parallel to the 75, the highway we were on, and it's got bush. It goes through the bush instead of out in the open field. So I figured that would be more sheltered. It would probably be better. And it was. I got over there and it was clear sailing all the way back. I mean, traffic on the road didn't know that obviously as they were still doing like 30 on the highway, but better than doing 130, I guess. So all blue is safe inside. Gonna warm up over the night and I'm gonna come back here in the morning, clean her up a little bit. This weekend I'm gonna spend some time getting all the salt out of all the crevices in here because once it thaws out, just the salt will be left, right?  At least just get the salt off the truck and then we'll go from there. We have a few things to get done. I'm really hungry and there's food at home. So I hear. So I'm gonna quickly get all my stuff out of old blue here and we'll talk to you guys soon. Might film a little bit at home. I might not. Gonna get rid of this old mattress. And this weekend I have to film the mattress video for the new Odyssey Truck Mattress. Where is it, right here? Have you guys checked out their website yet? OdysseyTruckMattress.com. I believe that's their website. You can just Google it, Odyssey Truck Mattress. It's mattress that's made in the USA. And believe me, it's the best sleep I've ever had in a truck. It's like sleeping at home every night. But I have the soothing sounds of the diesel engine for a little bit and then I shut it off for the night. I'm tired. I'll talk to you later.


Good evening, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Curiosity on Stage. This presentation is part of a series meant to discuss new and emerging technologies making a difference in Canada and around the world. My name is Michelle Makarski. I am the science advisor at the Canada Science and Technology Museum, and I will be your host this evening. For those of you attending with visual impairment, I'm a woman with shoulder length, brown hair and brown eyes, and I'm joining you this evening from my home office in the city of Ottawa, which is built on the unceded Algonquin Anishinaabe Territory. This presentation is being recorded and will be available on the Canada Science and Technology YouTube channel in the coming weeks. So if you really love what you hear tonight and want to either share it with someone or watch it again yourself, you'll be able to find it there available in both French and in English. I also want to thank the Ingenium Foundation, who is generously co-presenting this Curiosity on Stage speaker series focused on the centennial of the discovery of insulin. We are truly grateful to have the Foundation's support in amplifying the museum's mission, and particularly we are inspired by their mission towards science for all. In addition to the Ingenium Foundation, we're also liking to thank the National Research Council of Canada for their support in making this series accessible through translations, captioning, and transcriptions. Here at Curiosity on Stage, we aim to be a platform for thoughtful, critical, and respectful dialogue around scientific and technological issues that matter. We also want to look into the future of it and how those advances in innovations in science and technology are going to help us to build a better future. Over the next three years, we'll be centering our discussions around artificial intelligence, accessible technology, and medical innovations, which includes the talk that we're going to have right here tonight. So tonight, in conjunction with the Ingenium Foundation, I am delighted to introduce the first of three timely webinars in the thematic series Beyond Injections, 100 Years of Insulin, and the Future of Diabetes. Diabetes is an ancient and widespread disease that is becoming more and more prevalent. It's been around for a long time, and yet it's often poorly understood, especially by those of us who are unaffected, like me. Now, diabetes runs in my family, so I have heard a lot about treatments and foods and exercises that often promise a cure.  Curiosity on Stage is about inspiring thought by bringing experts together to share relevant, essential, and engaging topics that matter. This particular series is significant as it commemorates the 100th anniversary of the discovery of insulin, a story which is rooted in Canada that has profoundly transformed the lives of so many across the world. The insulin story is impressive, especially the stories of those that have benefited and shared in its progress. Today, therefore, I am delighted and proud to welcome Ron Schlein to our virtual stage. He is the first in a very talented lineup to share stories and insights into their chapter of the insulin story. So what can I tell you about Ron? Well, Ron and I have gotten to know each other quite well over the last couple of weeks, and I can tell you that Ron is an entrepreneur. As a teenager, he co-founded the Mad Science Group, which has grown from humble beginnings into a global franchise organization. Over 30 years of live in-person experiences and imaginative learning has grown Mad Science into the kind of program that has reached 80 million kids, getting them excited about STEM, and also offering career-oriented employment to over 70,000 people. Ron is also a serial investor and collaborator. He has supported and invested in companies in the EV technology, biotech, fintech, renewable energy, data, and cannabis sectors. And who knows, maybe at the end he can offer us a couple juicy stock tips. He also recently joined the Creative Destruction Lab, a nonprofit group that delivers mentorship to massively scalable early-stage science and technology companies. Ron also had the honor of being the Canadian government's first and so far only entrepreneur in residence, a really unique position which was set up to inject entrepreneurial thinking, passion, and creativity into senior government ranks for the benefit of all Canadians. And last but certainly not least, Ron is a diabetes dad. In 2012, Ron's son William was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. Ron has always held a special place in his heart for kid-related causes, and this particular cause becoming so personal to him has motivated him to get involved in, invest in, and help those especially children living with this chronic conditions. So with that, hold on to your proverbial hats and please join me in welcoming Ron's line to curiosity on stage. Thank you. Wow, that was a great introduction, Michelle. I really appreciate it. So let's begin. Since the dawn of time, we've never seen searching for ways to improve our lives. The modern age has given us unique innovations like the internet, iPhones, refrigerators, cars, and planes. For many, surviving life without easy access to these things sounds rough. However, if you have diabetes, no doubt you're also a big fan of one particular 20th century marvel, insulin. Following its discovery in the early 20s, insulin was wildly hailed as a miracle cure, a gift for humanity, a magical medicine that transformed death into life and whose discovery was considered nothing less than a modern miracle. This year marks a centennial anniversary of insulin, a drug with very humble beginnings produced initially from dogs by completely unknown scientists from within a simple, poorly equipped Ontario lab. And yet it remains to this day, perhaps amongst the most remarkable and vital achievements in medical history. Hi, my name is Ron Schlein and I'm an entrepreneur investor and the former entrepreneur in residence for the Canadian government. More importantly, like so many others, I'm a dad who came into diabetes through a very difficult, painful, and personal family experience. To comprehend what insulin represented in 1921, we needed to look at what was happening medically during the early 20s. The previous couple of thousand years had seen no real progress in treating illness and the world had just emerged from the great influenza epidemic of 1918, which killed more than 50 million people. The epidemic, also known as the Spanish flu, was ultimately defeated not by science, but by the immune system adapting to the virus. In other words, we exist today primarily because of survival of the fittest. So I'm saying that doctors in 1921 were mainly unable to treat severe diseases of any kind, including diabetes, as their medical knowledge was still really very early stage. Science relied more on comfort and general best practices instead of the specialized medicines and treatments that we've become so accustomed to and dependent on these days. Remember that penicillin was discovered only in September of 1928 and the polio vaccine in the 1950s. The early days of insulin were very different from what it has become today. Patients relied on glass syringes with thick needles that needed to be hand sharpened and sterilized to determine if insulin was necessary. Patients or caregivers would have to smell or taste their urine to try and tell if there was any sugar in it, a sign of high blood glucose. For context, check out your local museum and look at some of the antique medical devices, like the one you see on the screen. They will most definitely be frightening in the context of daily, indefinite use. So let's talk a bit more about insulin. Insulin has always been produced from living organisms. However, before the advent of biotech, the pancreas from pigs and cows supplied the raw materials needed. More than two tons of them went into extracting a mere eight ounces of purified insulin. I guess we're lucky that both pork and beef-derived insulin are nearly identical and work to convert the carbohydrates we eat into energy in exactly the same way. Insulin was not, however, technically discovered in 1921. Its role in the body was already understood, and its connection to diabetes had become, well, pretty clear. In 1916, the word insulin was coined to describe a pancreatic substance, but the disease was first identified around 1650 BC. And in 250 BC, the disorder was named diabetes from the Greek word siphon. You see, early on it was believed that diabetes was a condition where the body would liquefy itself and escape through urination, since early diabetics were, they'd slowly wither away and eventually die. Researchers' understanding of the disease advanced in 1869 when a German medical student discovered the island of cells in the pancreas. Others eventually realized that they were responsible for regulating glucose. So we know that after more than 30,000 years, there was still no effective treatment for the disease. Researchers did recognize that carbohydrates accelerated decline, so the best medicine developed in the early 1900s was to withhold few food and named it the starvation diet. The problem is that most patients were children, so horrified parents had to watch their kids waste away and die, either from starvation or diabetic ketoacidosis. This severe complication occurs when your body produces high levels of blood acids called ketones. All this made the search for insulin desperate, as investigators, researchers and doctors from around the world sought to discover a pancreatic extract to save these dying children against the ravages of this terrible and ancient disease. The breakthrough happened in Toronto in 1921 led by a researcher who was just out of medical school. Frederick Banting was a doctor, but he couldn't really earn a living. He tried his work as a surgeon, a teacher, and even as an artist painter. His paintings would eventually become quite valuable, drawing prices in line with the famed group of seven. He had little experience and knew little about diabetes aside from reading short paper, as a long shot and in the hopes of making a living, Banting began his work in May at the University of Toronto and was assisted shortly after by a young medical student named Charles Best. They had no idea that they were embarking on a journey that would soon immortalize them as medical geniuses and land them a Nobel Prize for medicine. Their work started immediately and knowing that the pancreas contains insulin, they started removing them from dogs to make them diabetic and then use their own pancreas, the one they had just removed to try and develop an extract that would then lower blood sugars. It was a messy, dirty and cruel work. Many dogs died, but by August, just three months later, one of the extracts worked. It's worth noting that animal experimentation at the time was socially accepted and medical science was trial and error, so we definitely can't fault the Banting team for using them. Incidentally, the dog in this photo, well, he probably didn't make it. Soon after, a biochemist was brought on to purify the ground up Oregon porridge and made it viable for human use. Finally, on January 11th, 1922, a 14-year-old boy, Leonard Thompson, received the first insulin injection. It was described as a smelly, murky, light brown liquid containing lots of sediment and it was given to him over several weeks. Amazingly, it worked and the boy's sugar and ketone levels fell. What's staggering in this photo demonstrate the amazing physical transformation that saved this boy from certain death. The child weighed only 65 pounds, the weight of a mid-sized dog, and was quickly transformed into a healthy looking and strong teenager. The Banting team's researchers, of course, couldn't commercialize insulin, but a pharma company out there called Eli Lilly, well, they sure could, and as a bonus, they were conveniently located close to several slaughterhouses in the Minneapolis region. Lilly jumped at the opportunity and started to mass produce insulin. They stored a couple million pounds of frozen pancreas from pigs and cows just to keep up with demand since there was already an astonishing one million Americans lining up for ongoing daily access. Next slide. Like most median advertisers, the discovery in 1921 spread like wildfire and was heralded and marketed as a cure for diabetes. People from around the world and from all socioeconomic backgrounds were desperate for a magical medicine. The reality, however, was very, very different. Next slide. Insulin did precisely what it was supposed to do, temporary lower blood sugars, but it could also cause hypoglycemia. In this situation, blood sugars become too low, leading to shakiness and confusion or even seizures, loss of consciousness or death. Insulin became a daily self-administered drug, but it could kill just as well as it could save if misused. It's worth noting that no self-administered therapy has ever quite those same properties, before or since. In fact, consider your own experience with medicine, in every case, at least that I can think of, from cancer to heart condition, infection or even cholesterol. A doctor always describes the medicine. That includes a treatment of medicine and a dose. And as a friend of mine, Lane Desborough, when an expert on diabetes automation called it, it take a bunch of insulin and then start eating your way out of hypoglycemia. Incidentally, when you get to the part discussing innovation, I'll offer a sneak peek into an extraordinary innovation led by a couple of good friends and diabetes pioneers. Robert Oringer and Claude Pichet, both living in Canada, one Canadian. They developed a remarkable new delivery method to help counteract the potentially deadly side effect of taking too much insulin. In fact, like Banting and Best, they also work with Eli Lilly, the original insulin pharma, to make and market it. So as you can see, we now know that during the 20s and 30s, insulin curative powers were greatly exaggerated. Despite lowering blood sugars, managing them was still very difficult. And elevated blood glucose over time was dangerous. These days, it's a measurement known as an A1C. As a result, by the mid-1930s, patients who were using insulin began developing some serious high glucose-related complications that included damage to the eyes, kidneys, nerves, and heart. A real problem that remains today. Insulin hadn't cured anything, but what it did was effectively transform diabetes from a death sentence into a chronic, manageable condition. And considering the alternative was sincerely welcome. Remember, the glucose monitoring wasn't developed until the 1940s. So until then, patients unaware of their blood sugar levels, they had to fiddle around with insulin dosage entirely and utterly blind. Next slide. And this is when we get to our story. Like most others, a diabetes diagnosis is a complete surprise. Our family was on holiday in the Bahamas. And I remember noticing that our son was becoming increasingly lethargic, tired, and very thirsty. Also, his breath smelled like chemicals or more specifically like acetone. At first, we assumed he was just under the weather, but we eventually decided to fly home and take him to see his pediatrician. Within minutes, we were warned that he was diabetic or likely diabetic and needed to have him rushed to the ER. His life was in grave risk. The following days in the ICU were focused on getting Williams sugars and ketones under control and then began the work of learning how to help him. The training was short. And we weren't really noted to the life-altering effects that this diagnosis offered. In fact, it wasn't until a couple of friends, Justin Weinberg and Robert Orranger, yes, this same co-creator, Baxini, who separately sat me down and explained it to me in stark, unvarnished detail. But I started to truly understand I was mortified. Will's life would never be the same. Neither would ours. Technology, well, it was still emerging.  We even stuck into his bedroom several times a night to test him, treat him, and even just to make sure he was still breathing. Our best calculations were rarely accurate and the variables to consider were impossible. We treated his highs with insulin, his lows with juice, next. And my wife, Shari, hung around outside his elementary school all day, every day, rain or shine or snow, just so she could be close in case he needed help. You see, his fancy private school had no nurse. Next. On average, a type one deals with therapies at least 250 times a day. And that assumes that nothing went wrong. It's an enormous responsibility that is especially rough on kids, forcing them to mature too quickly. Over the years, technology improved and so did our lives. The burden never left, though, but things got easier. We became early adopters for many of the tools and tech that I'll get into. And we were grateful that people were relentlessly pushing for new ways to keep our boys safe. The world was changing and quickly. People were tired of waiting. Next. Going back to Banting, what's impressive is that following his discovery, when would expect him to sell the patent and find a way to profit from the discovery of history's first modern and hugely needed medicine? Remember that he wasn't an independently wealthy man, yet he did something remarkable and completely unexpected. He chose to sell the patent to the University of Toronto for this grand sum of $1, something amounting to perhaps today's pay. He later declared that this discovery was a gift to humanity and needed to be available for everyone. So I wonder if he understood how diabetes would eventually proliferate the globe and affect hundreds of millions. In my mind, I believe in hope that he did. Next. So I'd like to ask each of you listening to this event to take a moment to reflect on this simple, honest question. Don't worry, there's no right or wrong answer here. But if you were a researcher that just knowingly come up with the discovery of the century and history's very first real medicine, what would you have done? Remember, the discovery of insulin was not an accident. Banting and his team deliberately set out to develop it. This was not a lottery ticket, nor a chance discovery. Would you have sold it and profit massively? Or would you have given it away for nothing? Next. In honesty, I'm ashamed to say that I doubt that I would have or could have done the latter. Next again. On the left is a visual of type 1 diabetes where the body's immune system destroys beta cells in the pancreas and as a result can no longer produce insulin. Type 1 is also an autoimmune disease that to this day still cannot be prevented. It represents about 5 to 10% of all diabetes worldwide. On the right, we have type 2 diabetes. It sounds the same, but it isn't. With type 2s, the pancreas does produce insulin, but it isn't used correctly. This is known as insulin resistance. Often, insulin produced in the pancreas also decreases, causing insulin deficiency. Type 2 diabetes can be prevented or delayed as two of the major risk factors can be modified. Overweight and inactivity. What's quite incredible is that type 2 diabetes accounts for a staggering 90% of all diabetes cases globally, many of which can be delayed or most certainly better managed. Next. Over the years, insulin, it's improved. There are long acting, fast acting, many brands each with unique and essential attributes. Other important medicines to help manage blood sugars have been developed. Glucose testing has improved. We've come a long way from tasting urine to test strips that are instant, small and accurate. We have CGMs. These are devices that offer nearly real-time blood glucose readings. We can leverage smartphones to process data instantly, anticipate blood glucose, provide recommendations, and even deliver insulin all instantly. We can also connect endocrinologist and caregivers with real-time blood glucose to better manage and treat diabetes. Knowledge on diabetes has also greatly improved, and the unicorn known as a closed loop has finally become a reality. Next. To better understand a closed loop system, it combines a CGM, an insulin pump, and a control algorithm to adjust insulin delivery based on real-time blood glucose.  The goal of the system is, of course, better insulin management, and perhaps more importantly, is to reduce the burden that people with type 1 bear every day by helping with control around the clock. Next. Even the basic insulin pens are becoming smarter by connecting to CGMs and leveraging AI to incorporate easy dosing recommendations. A big shout out to Bigfoot Biomedical. They developed the first-of-its-kind smart pen cap that combines the CGM data with AI to provide real-time insulin dosing recommendations that just receive FDA clearance. Like so many others, Bigfoot emerged from people having a deep connection to diabetes and choosing to risk, well, everything to make a difference. Next slide. Every company and organization on this screen, along with many others, have given so much to drag diabetes out of the cave and create an opportunity for our children to have better, less complicated, more independent, and longer life. Because of each of them working, failing, succeeding, trying, and pushing the boundaries of the art of the possible, we move ever closer to a world and a life without insulin. Next. But for now, diabetes remains an epidemic of unprecedented biblical proportion. And it's getting worse. According to the CDC, 34.2 million Americans, just over one in 10, have diabetes. 88 million American adults, approximately one in three, have pre-diabetes, and about 95% of them are type 2. Unlike type 1, these patients often have other options other than insulin, although many will eventually require insulin as a better glucose-lowering choice. Some of the other medicines in new classes of drugs, like churlicity and Lantus, are already generating billions in annual sales, which is an obvious indicator of demand. So let's look at some mind-numbing statistics. And I hope you're all sitting down for this. Here in Canada, nearly 11.5 million Canadians live with diabetes or pre-diabetes. In North America and the Caribbean together, one in six adults are at risk of type 2, which will increase 33%. In South and Central America, two in five people with diabetes were undiagnosed, which will rise 55% to 49 million. In Africa, three in five people with diabetes are undiagnosed, and three in four diabetes deaths are from people under 60, which will increase 143% by 2045. In the Middle East, one in eight have diabetes, which will rise 96%. And in Southeast Asia, one in five adults have diabetes, and this will increase 74% to get this, 153 million by 2045. Incidentally, Europe has the highest type 1 kids population, a mountain to 300,000, and one in six live births are affected by hyperglycemia or high blood sugars in pregnancy. Despite a century of advancements in treatment, education, and prevention, we as a global society remain in the wake of these awful statistics. One in 10 adults on this planet today, some 537 million people are currently living with diabetes, and the numbers are only getting worse. That doesn't count the lives lost to COVID-19, which has been particularly deadly for people living with diabetes. A study published in February found that having either type 1 or type 2 diabetes tripled the risk of severe illness and death from COVID-19. Moreover, as many as 40% of the people who died in the U.S. from COVID-19 had type 1 or type 2. Even worse, experts are concerned that more people may develop diabetes due to COVID, and the debate over a specific COVID-induced diabetes begins. It's been discovered that as many as 14% of people hospitalized with severe COVID later developed diabetes. There have also been new onset type 1 or type 2 in babies, children, and adults infected with COVID-19. This data will no doubt be studied for years, but the news is not encouraging next. What then is the next chapter for insulin? Well, it will undoubtedly include continued improvements in everything. Next again. Innovators and entrepreneurs are developing a once a week insulin to replace the current once a day option. Research also continues on glucose-sensitive insulin, which would only take effect when your blood sugar rises. But progress remains slow, and like everything else, always seems to be, you guessed it, 5 to 10 years out. Next. Insulin has saved the lives and families, including my son, and we owe so much to this extraordinary discovery. However, the most significant contribution from this miracle drug would be for it to simply disappear, which would mean diabetes has been cured. It will undoubtedly take more time, but I believe that until then other therapies, cell-based therapies, will someday provide a better, safer, and more curative option. SEM cell treatment for a long time has been the anticipated future for diabetes, specifically making insulin-producing beta cells, which the body would either tolerate through cell encapsulation or some kind of mild immune suppressant. A couple of great companies are on the verge of precisely this. Virtex has become a clinical trial on a stem cell-derived, fully differentiated pancreatic islet cell therapy. It's a fancy way of saying that they found a way to transform stem cells into insulin-producing beta cells. And via site, based on Canadian technology, known as the Edmonton Protocol, has begun a phase two clinical trial using encapsulated cells that transform into insulin-producing beta cells. Lisa Hepner, also Canadian, will speak about this game-changing innovation that has already helped La Lucky few become temporarily insulin-free in an upcoming ingenium talk as part of the series. Something I promise that I'll be tuning into and learning from. Insulin forever changed what's meant to be diagnosed with diabetes. It transformed death into a future and gave people a chance to live along in productive lives. Insulin was discovered right here in Canada in a Canadian lab by Canadians. Next slide. And their discovery showed the world for the first time that Canadian innovation mattered. The Banting team didn't receive government funding, participate in a supercluster, or deliver the next great IPO. But they did have Canadian training, Canadian talent, Canadian grit, and Canadian curiosity. Next. Banting lived from 1891 to 1941 before his untimely death, a mere 49 years. And during this short time on earth left an indelible mark that'll be remembered throughout the ages. We now know that there isn't a country or town anywhere on this planet that doesn't share our gratitude for their achievements. They've saved so many, so much sadness and been credited for saving more lives than any other Canadian and perhaps even any other person in history. For Canada, this means that we need to celebrate and remember Banting's life. It requires that we encourage others to follow in similar footsteps so that we as proud Canadians can cultivate the next great invention. Next. So I asked, how do we encourage more Canadians to create medicines, technology, and advancements, not just for themselves, but for the benefit of humanity at large? Next slide. How do we clone this philanthropic recipe so that those Nobel Prize winners replicate their humanitarian DNA for public good? How can Canada as a government participate in creating advantage and value for the benefit of a global society? How do we transform economic motivation into social potential in essence and to coin a Canadian charity? How do we transform me into we? Well, I've had the opportunity of thinking about this for a while. So first, I think we need to encourage the government to attract and retain internal top talent and equip them to explore solutions that matter. They already have the best equipment and tremendous skill, but what they may lack is the permission, culture, and perhaps some of the connective tissue to innovate. That's not to say that Canada doesn't deliver. On the contrary, magic does happen here. For example, the Ebola vaccine was an incredible achievement along with other vital innovations developed right here in Canada. Second, government should invest alongside in innovators, not as a financial backstop, but as motivated investors alongside other expert incubators looking to identify, accelerate, and commercialize opportunities that generate returns and pride for Canada. Third, and perhaps the most important of all, we must invest strategically, but I'm not referring this time to stocks and bonds, but in our greatest assets are children. All kids are unique and they all have talents. However, not each child has the same talent. Identifying aptitudes and capabilities early on during elementary habit forming years is extremely important, then providing the specialized education that will better equip kids to help identify and grow their skills as they learn, surround them with the specialized technology and training so that they become the leading edge as early as possible. Remember, skills are a perishable and evolving resource. Our system is geared to deliver homogeneous education, but our kids are not the same and we shouldn't always learn the same way, so we need to embrace their individuality and help them figure out their super skills early. The sooner they discover and develop their talent, the more time they will have to excel and contribute before they get too old and need to retire. My thoughts are not novel and other nations like Israel have done this with stunning success, so we already have a working model to consider and evolve. Next slide. For our family, diabetes is personal. Suppose I could speak with Frederick Banting, Charles Best, JJ McLeod, and James Collough. I want to say thank you and offer father's most profound gratitude. Thank you for giving my son a shot at an everyday life. Thank you for letting me watch him grow up and do such amazing things every day. Thank you for every birthday, graduation, and for each special moment, big and small. Next slide. Diabetes is no longer a death sentence, and we are grateful for all the love and potential that you've made possible. Know that your efforts have saved the lives of our son, and the children of so many that can celebrate, live, love, and laugh. Because of you and for us. Next slide. Life goes on. Finally, I'd like to thank the Canadian government for allowing me to work alongside our senior leadership to explore unique pathways, priorities, and opportunities to bring innovation, including novel diabetes technologies to Canada. Believe me, it took real courage to unleash an entrepreneur into the enormous and complex government machine, and I remain grateful for theirs. Thank you. Next slide. So, Michelle, we turn it back to the Q&A now. Wow, Ron. Thank you so, so much for sharing the story of insulin, and especially for sharing your story. Hang on. We'll wait for you to reconnect. Well, Ron's reconnecting. I'd like to invite you. I need to just fix a small technical glitch. Not a problem. Well, Ron is fixing his technical glitch. I'd invite everyone to explore the Q&A function at the bottom of the screen. And if you have any questions for Ron, write them in, and we'll see how many we can get to. Michelle, I'm ready for your questions. Fabulous. Okay. Sorry. No problems. This is the era we live in. So the first question I'm going to start with is actually one that came in earlier from, I think, someone that's here tonight. And they're asking, is there a profile for Canadians who are most likely to get type 2 diabetes? Yeah, great question. Yes, you are in fact, there are in fact more likely to develop type 2 diabetes if you're over 45, have a family history of diabetes, are obese or overweight. Diabetes is more common in African Americans, Hispanics, Latinos, Indigenous people, or Asian Americans. Although not everyone with type 2 diabetes is overweight, obesity and an inactive lifestyle are two of the most common causes. These factors are responsible for the majority of type 2 diabetes cases in North America. As a follow up, what about low income communities? I've heard that they're at risk as well. Yup, they are. So unfortunately, yes, people with less money, less education, and lower social status usually have less access to good food. They also have more barriers to exercise, more stress, and often more exposure to chemicals. So people who have had hard lives like a history of trauma or a difficult childhood also have more of these risk factors. Thank you. So what about type 1 then? You said there were certain things we could do in our lives to help prevent or at least push off type 2 diabetes. What about type 1 diabetes? Yeah, so if the question is, can type 1 diabetes prevent it, the answer is unfortunately not. There are however new tests that can be performed to determine if you have the genetic markers that place you at a higher risk. Great. So there's a question coming in from Anouk and she's, I'm going to kind of change her wording a little bit, but she's, what can people do to prevent like a type 2 diabetes or slow the chances of it developing into full blown diabetes from just pre-diabetes? Anouk, that's a great question. Thank you. There are several ways to try and prevent type 2 diabetes, and it's a list. So cut sugar and refined carbs from your diet, work out regularly, drink water as your primary beverage instead of soft drinks and sugary drinks, lose weight if you're overweight or obese, quit smoking, follow a very low carb diet, watch your portion sizes, avoid a sedentary behavior, eat a high fiber diet, even things like optimizing vitamin D levels or minimizing your intake of processed foods. And surprisingly drinking coffee or tea, along with other foods or drinks that are high in antioxidants will absolutely help. I'm going to ask a follow up question from that too. So do you think then that some of these factors are the reason that type 2 diabetes is increasing in the world, like more people eating fast food, more coffee being drank, that kind of thing? In a word, yes. Yeah. I think type 2 diabetes to a large degree, not for everyone, is simply caused by this intake of all of these things and a lack of a sedentary life and doing all the things I had just mentioned. Another question that came in from before, what is the average age to get diagnosed with type 1? So type 1 is usually diagnosed before the age of 40, although sometimes people have been diagnosed later on after an illness causes an immune response that triggers it. Most type 1 diagnoses occur in children between the ages of 4 and 14. So that's really young, my goodness. Yeah, my son was diagnosed at 5. Yeah. Oh my goodness.  It is, but for children that are diagnosed very early on, the only thing I can really say is they don't really know another way. So once they get used to where they are and they get a little older, they don't remember a life without diabetes. So their routine, although they may not like it, it becomes part of their life. Another question that we got several mail-in questions, is insulin the most expensive liquid in the world? Yeah, that's a good question. It's good that I started doing some research before this. So insulin in the U.S. costs about $9,600 a gallon. And that makes it, believe it or not, the sixth most expensive liquid in the world behind Chanel number five, which is $26,000 a gallon. Horseshoe crab blood, which is being used in research. It's a blue blood that's apparently incredible for research. And that costs $60,000 a gallon, poor horseshoe crabs. Lysergic acid or LSD, the drug, comes in number three at $123,000 a gallon. King cobra venom is a whopping $153,000 a gallon. And the number one most expensive liquid in the world. You want to take a shot at Michelle at what this might be? I'm all that I can imagine is like melted gold or something. No, no, no. Scorpion venom at $39 million a gallon. Wow. I suddenly feel like I'm in the wrong field. Well, kind of fun. And you got to milk a lot of scorpions. I'm not sure there's a lot of job security in that work. So why are the prices so high? Like it's in demand. The patent got sold for a dollar. How is the cost so ridiculously high? So an economics question, I love it. I shout out to my friend, Stephen, in the audience. In a single word, greed. Generally, basic economic principles would dictate that prices for goods and medicines should fall over time. And as competition enters the market, prices are driven down. It's the rule of supply and demand. So despite insulin being price regulated, it's sad to say that it's gone up about 8x over the past 20 years. I personally believe that manufacturers charge so much for one really simple reason. Because they can't. For example, if a video game system was too expensive, consumers would hold off buying it. But with insulin, consumers can't walk away because they just they can't live without it. And what's particularly sad for me is that, you know, there are a lot of people out there that don't have these medicines paid for by Medicare or Medicaid or provincial subsidy programs. And often they have to make decisions, especially in an inflationary market between medicine and food.  And having to decide between insulin and food is just terrible. And if you're a type two diabetic, well, you need higher quality food to be able to try and keep your diabetes in check. And the last expensive food are always the inexpensive carbs, which then these people would then be forced to eat more and more of. So this becomes this horrible self fulfilling prophecy of their their diabetes becoming out of control because they can't afford their medicines, or they can't afford the food to take care of themselves. So it's it's a horrible situation that really at some point needs to really get looked at perhaps through the different food services and food agencies within the Canadian the Canadian government and other governments around the world because this problem is it's not going to go away on its own. Another question and hear about cost while we're on the subject. And it's about insulin pumps. So this question is from someone living in Quebec and insulin pumps are not covered by provincial health care. Do you know are pumps covered in other provinces and territories? Well, actually, I would like to correct that. Insulin pumps in Quebec absolutely are as an example. My son is diabetic and in Quebec, he's on an omnipod. This is an example of a small omnipod, which is an insulin pump. If you're under 18 in Quebec, and you sign up for the insulin pump program, and you go through their process from zero to 18, you're fully covered for insulin for pumps for pump supplies, even things like MLA are covered.  But yes, other provinces are starting to get into this. And incidentally, this is this bag full of insulin pumps. It's a horrible environmental waste, but it keeps my son alive. And there's a few months of pumps in here. If you can, if you can see inside this package, there's, I don't know, 50, 60, and he goes through this every, every couple of days, he needs a completely different pump. So the good news is if the, if the caller is asking questions and they happen to be under 18, absolutely, they're covered. No problems there. It's part of RamQ. If they were diagnosed when they're under 18, they are still covered as part of RamQ as long as they fill out that form every year and send it through their endocrinologist back to RamQ or shoot a Quebec. And if they're over 18, I don't know what to say. It's not covered. It's too bad. A question coming in from, from Laura here, and she's asking you to expand on the stem cell treatment. Her daughter was unfortunately recently diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. So stem cell treatments are nothing that's available now. Viaside, Vertex, other companies are trying to find ways to get the, the, to get stem cells to become an insulin producing beta cells. And they're trying to find ways to inject them into the liver, to inject them into the pancreas, to encapsulate them into these special teabags that are, that are inserted underneath the skin where interstitial fluids that contain blood, glucose levels can go in, and then they can produce insulin on their own. And then you're, you're technically insulin free because your body is producing it. These are things that are currently in testing. Lisa Hepner with the Human Trial will be talking about that on hers, I think in February, Michelle, and stay, stay tuned because they had a film crew follow a bunch of these diabetics around. Some of them have been insulin free for a long time now. And it's, it is the future of this technology. Another question asking, what about pancreas transplants? Yep, you can have a pancreas transplant and conceivably you would be diabetes free. The problem is the immunosuppressant drugs required to keep you healthy.  So that's why, unless you have real chronic insulin issues where you really can't tell your lows and you can't really treat it and you run into serious hypoglycemia situations, it's not something that is typically explored medically. Question here from Lisa asking some of these innovations you've been talking about, which ones have you and your son personally used? Well, my son started off with an insulin pen. So this is an example here of an insulin pen. It's a pen, it's loaded with insulin in the front. This is a rapid acting insulin from called Novorepid.  You're the one that calculates it and you inject it. And this is how you lower blood glucose. Since then, my son has evolved onto a pump, which was one of these things. This pump is connected to a PDM. The PDM is like a brain. It doesn't talk to anything, but you program it and you figure, you figure out things like insulin sensitivity and carb ratios and all kinds of other stuff. And it injects insulin that's part of something called a basal rate. In other words, a certain minimum amount of insulin that you need to stay alive, the minimum.  So my son went on to that. And after the insulin pump with Omnipod, he actually went on to a fully closed loop technology, which was part of a product called Loop, which really isn't part of anything here in Canada just yet. It's part of a we're not waiting movement. And that is the future of closed loop technology. So he's kind of been through the full gamut. That's incredible.  So Ron, there's a bit of a special guest who's popped up in our audience and wants to say hi to you and has a bit of a story to tell. So I'd like to introduce, as a bit of a surprise, Bob Banting, who can correct me if I'm wrong, is the great nephew of the Banting that we've just been talking about. And I think he wants to say a couple of words on what drove Banting to come up with this idea and press on with the research when he wasn't even paid. So Ron, with your permission, I'd like to introduce you to Bob Banting. Yes, Mr. Banting, thank you. How are you today? Wonderful. Thank you for tuning into this. Hope we're not bouncing around here too much. There we go. Trying to do this with an iPad. Yes, I thought maybe viewers would be interested in hearing a bit of a bit of a story about how Fred Banting, that's great uncle Fred Banting, ended up being driven. His idea came to him in the middle of the night in London. But it really was driven by the fact that as he was growing up, one of his chums, a gal, her name is now known, known to us fairly recently, as Jenny Victoria Jordan. Jenny was a childhood friend that lived on an adjacent farm. And little by little, she exhibited all the classic symptoms of diabetes. And when Fred was away at the first few years at the university, she came down with diabetes and Fred would visit her on her porch. He ultimately was a bearer at her funeral. So Fred ended up being driven by this. He talked about this idea many times long before the idea came forth by discussing it with one of his cousins, also a doctor and a person who helped out with the original insulin injections. That was a good friend, Fred Hipple. They grew up together on the farm. And Fred and he talked about the need for this solution in 1920, sorry 1919, when they were both looking for a ride, a boat ride back to Canada after serving in the war. So really the driver and the idea for the insulin was in fact, I guess cultured in his mind with a childhood friend that he didn't talk about at all, largely because the family, her family died at the time with a lot of kids at the same time. They all died one after the other of infectious diseases. And her sister died as well as a diabetic. So he never talked about it, never mentioned it. And out of respect for the neighbors, he never focused on this at all. So I thought maybe he'd be interested in that tidbit. That's an incredible story. And while I have you here, I want to thank you because of what your relative has done. He saved my son's life. My son's alive. And the lives of so many others have been saved because of this incredible medicine. And it's incredible sitting here and speaking with you knowing that a couple generations back was a close family member that made this all possible. Yeah, I was close to it. My father talked about Fred a lot. He was old enough soon enough to have met him alive. So he talked about it. My aunts and uncles all talked about it. And Fred would come back home to his birthplace home in Alliston. And they would all meet there. So it was great background. I hear this story and the thank yous. It wasn't me or any of the relatives that did this at all. But the thank yous keep coming up. And I like to take and consider the need to take the history and the thanks and the thankfulness and turn that somehow into a way to have Fred Banting come back and finish the job. Wouldn't that be something? Sorry about the video. That would truly be something. Well, listen, you bear his name and you bear his blood and I'm grateful for that. So thank you. You're welcome. Thanks to both of you. There's thank yous flying in on the question and answers right now, both to you, Bob, and also to you, Ron. Unfortunately, I think that's all the time we have for questions. There are a couple more that we didn't get to answer. And Ron has agreed that any unanswered questions, he will do a bit of a kind of a written interview, which we'll have posted on the ingenium website after the fact. So if your question didn't get answered, look for Ron's article or tune in for our next topic, which is going to be on December 8th, where we're going to be exploring some of the future innovations in diabetes. So I can tell you that Rob and Claude are two really interesting guys, and their innovation is incredible. That's made a huge difference in our lives as well, because, you know, the antidote of too much insulin requires glucagon, which raises your blood sugar. And if you can't drink anything because you're unconscious because you've accidentally taken too much insulin, you're in a situation where you need help. And their story is remarkable. Their innovation is fantastic.  I've got a couple of bottles right here with me of what they invented. So I strongly think anyone that's interested in diabetes should check it out. They're two really dynamic guys. And, of course, after that, the session with Lisa Heppner is going to be fantastic. But Michelle, I just want to thank you for doing this. It's been a pleasure working with you. And I'm so glad that the Ingenium Foundation and, you know, the Science Museums of Canada found that this was an important enough topic on the centennial to talk about. Absolutely. And I want to thank you, our guest speaker this evening, and also our surprise guest speaker, Mr. Poppy. Yes. Wasn't that great? It was so cool. I want to thank you so much for your generosity, for sharing your passion with us and in this story that's very personal for you. I'd also like to thank our audience, of course, for coming and for participating and for sharing all of those questions. And one special request, Michelle, if you could just reach out to Bob Banting and find out if I can get in touch with him directly, that would be fantastic. I will send him a message. For the rest of our audience members, there's going to be a link dropped in the chat any second now to a survey in case you want to share your thoughts with us. We'd really love to know how we can keep improving this series. And you will also be receiving an automated message tomorrow through the email that you use to register, which will also have a link to this survey if you don't manage to click it in time. So please check the museum's website for upcoming topics. If you want to know more, check out our info line. And on behalf of myself and Ron and the Canada Science and Technology Museum and the Ingenium Foundation, I want to say a sincere thank you and good night. I hope you all stay healthy and stay well. Right now. Good night. Thank you.


Hi, I am Dr. Vinay, consultant in Pediatric Hematology, Pediatric Oncology and bone marrow transplantation services at Manipal Hospital in Eshwampur. Bone marrow transplantation is a modality of treatment where the defective stem cells are replaced by normal healthy bone marrow. This procedure is performed in a specialized unit called bone marrow transplantation unit and it is a medical procedure and not a surgical operation. To tell about the stages of bone marrow transplant, broadly we classify it into three phases. The first phase is the preparatory phase wherein we look at the disease and control it. We evaluate the patient and make him prepared for the bone marrow transplant and simultaneously we will look for a suitable healthy donor wherein we do some specialized tests like HLA matching. In the second phase, the patient is admitted to a bone marrow transplant unit. Bone marrow transplant unit is a sterile zone which has HEPA-filtred positive pressure ventilated isolation rooms. The patient needs to be nursed here for about three to four weeks because he is at a high risk of infections. During this phase, the stem cells that are collected from the donor is infused into the patient and it takes about two to three weeks for the stem cell to start producing normal functional blood cells. This is followed by a third phase called the post transplant phase. In the post transplant phase, the patient usually recovers his blood system and there is a complete reboot of his blood and the immunological system. This cures him of the disease that we have transplanted for. It takes about six to twelve months for the patient to go through the third phase. However, the patient need not stay in the hospital during this time. During the entire procedure, the patient may be admitted for about four to five weeks in the bone marrow transplant unit. The preparatory phase may last somewhere between one to three weeks and the post transplant phase about six to twelve months. The patient may have to stay closer to the hospital for about three months during this time of treatment. Thank you.


Hey there friends. Thanks for checking in at the range today on a cold and windy Michigan winter, but I had to get out the Beretta APX Centurion I picked this up about a week ago. I'm pretty impressed with what it offers so far This is selling for right around the mid 300s. I saw on average about $360 it does come with two 15 round mags three grip modules I like the one that is in the case with a ship with 3.7 inch barrel a pick rail and a trigger that I am measuring right at six pounds with a Pretty short reset Kind of fat slide It weighs 33 and three-quarters ounces Loaded, but let me go ahead take a few shots here and we'll check it out All right, I noticed I shot a little low at first But that's all right It does have an ambidextrous slide stop three dot metal sights the slide serrations It's what the APX is known for you can see right there that goes all the way across the slide It's it's kind of cool. It was unique when it first came out now The APX models are very well known Initially, this was a five hundred five hundred twenty five dollar gun and it has dropped in cost over time the take down is Little strange. I showed that on my table review, but I think the more I do it It'll get a little easier. I like the grip texturing The gun really does feel nice now the compact model the APX compact Has a 13 round mag. This has a 15 round mag offers three finger contact and a Pretty nice shooter. It is pretty smooth I consider the APX a chariot a mid-sized pistol similar to a sig p3 20x compact a FNS 9c a CZ p10 s right around that class But quite a bit cheaper than all of those threes that I just mentioned. Let's try one-handed here Yeah, I'm shooting this a bit low. I'm not sure if the target is Watchable from your angle, but I am shooting a bit low a little bit all over the target, but it is Windy push my I don't know if the sound's coming through, but it is windy and it is cold out here But no excuse. I'm shooting a little bit low. I backed up a little bit with the Centurion I'm gonna raise that front sight Just a hair and see if I do any better Yeah, so far. I'm thinking that's what it's working for me at least this time out Let's see if the APX Centurion will charge with forcing a mag That time it didn't and that time it did most poly frame Striker fire guns will charge. How about a limp wrist test? The APX Centurion Past the lip wrist test. So there it is Brenna APX Centurion I'm kind of all over the place with it right now But we'll see as I get more experience with this handgun If I could tighten it up a little bit overall pretty happy with it fed fired ejected everything just fine and for 360 bucks on average at your local gun store I think it's a pretty good deal if you like videos like this, please subscribe and share I always appreciate thumbs up button. Thanks for watching and you guys be safe


Hello, this is Christy with Art of Awakening. Thank you so much for watching. I work a lot with spirit animals, and so I field a lot of questions about spirit animals. And today there's a question that a viewer posed to me a while back, and I apologize, it's taken me a while to address this, but her question was that she said she had several spirit animals coming forward for her, and some of them were very, very different, like almost opposite. And she was wondering like, what does this mean? What if I've got these completely different animals and I can't see anything that they have in common, and how do I work with this? And I thought that was a really good question. And there's no one simple answer to this. And that's true of a lot of things with spirit animals. We really need to use our intuition when working with them. So that's always kind of my first piece of advice in working with spirit animals is to use your intuition because each of them has multiple ways that you can interpret it. They are archetypes and they are fairly complex archetypes. So one of the things that they help us do is to tune into that intuition if you have a critter coming forward for you and you may be reading about it. And it may have like multiple things that it does mean pay attention to what your body or your emotions say if you get that little hit, like, oh, that's the one, right? You just kind of know it. And so that's definitely the first thing I'd advise. But beyond that, let's take a look at some of these, you know, when different spirit animals come forward for us. So one thing I'd have you look at is, are these two animals, is there a predator-prey relationship between them? Because if there is, then there's definitely those two are working together with you probably on the same thing. And that predator-prey relationship is going to, you know, be significant. For example, if it's say wolf and deer or wolf and rabbit, okay, say let's just take wolf and deer. Say, you know, cause wolf and deer are very, very different. They are almost opposite, right? The wolf is more, the cunning, the predator has a lot to do with, you know, the leadership and strategy and hierarchy. And the deer has a lot of kind of heart energy to it and gentleness, right? The wolf is more fierce. So there's a lot of opposite. But when we have them both showing up and they might, that could indicate something within you that needs balancing, you know, or some aspect of your life in which you're feeling pulled in opposite directions. And these animals could be just calling attention, calling your attention to that and showing you, you know, maybe ways that like depending on how they interact or what's happening with these spirit animals, they can start giving you clues as to how to begin to balance that aspect of yourself. Let me give you an example. Perhaps you identify very strongly with deer. Maybe it's a core totem for you, but you keep dreaming about wolf, right? And maybe in the dream, the wolf is starving.    So just an example and just sort of a fictitious example, but just illustrates what I'm meaning by that. So, okay, so what if there is no predator or prey relationship? What if you can't see any way that these two animals are related? It could be, say, sloth and rhinoceros. I mean, really hard to find anything uncommon there. Really hard to say if they are even speaking to you about the same thing. Well, in this case, first of all, there is a chance that maybe they're not speaking to the same thing, you know, maybe because we are very, very complex. I mean, if an animal is a complex thing, we are actually a lot more complex as humans. So, like, there could be two things that are not hugely related that's going on in your life that they're each speaking to something else. Although, you know, honestly, everything is related, but it could just be each one speaking to something different within you. But then there's also the possibility that these two animals could be actually teaming up to help you see something. So, in that case, what I would do would be really research each animal, research its behavior, research its characteristics, you know, see what each of these things is bringing forward and see if there's any overlap. And again, I just kind of pulled these two animals out of my head, but there is an overlap in that each of them has a way that they interact with other organisms in a way that's mutually beneficial. It's a symbiosis. So, the sloth actually has algae that grow in its fur and it helps both of them because the algae has some place to grow and it helps to kind of flush the sloth. And the rhinoceros has a relationship with this little bird, a rhinoceros bird that kind of hangs out around the rhinoceros and helps to get the insects. It eats insects off, you know, from the folds between its skin and it receives protection and food from the rhinoceros and the rhinoceros gets its ticks eaten and sometimes I think the bird actually may warn it, you know, of things that are going on. So, it's this really partnership. So, in this case, these two very, very different animals are both talking about partnerships and that might be some area of your life that you might want to look into or maybe just calling your attention to that, maybe the possibility of partnerships or if it's coming forward in ways that aren't so pleasant, maybe there's some partnerships in your life that need some attention. So, I hope this has helped. This is a pretty complex topic in and of itself and again, it's really, there's a lot of just intuitive using your intuition and looking into the particular situation of what you're dealing with and feeling into that, that it really has to be done on a case-by-case basis. But if this is coming up for you, definitely look into it, feel into it. If you are really having trouble and you're feeling like it's really, really important, I do offer sessions that I can help you get to the bottom of whatever it is that's coming forward and the link to that is below as well as the link to My Spirit Animal Oracle Deck and these illustrations are from that deck. All right, so thank you so much for watching. If you've enjoyed this, then do consider subscribing, liking, sharing and all that fun stuff. And other than that, have a lovely day and I will catch you again later.