Saya tidak terkenal dengan sebuah meskipun saya berada dengan sebuah meskipun. Jadi ketika Kit beritahu saya bahawa ada sebaik-baik orang yang beritahu saya Saya berharap bahawa kawasan dan matri syarikat... Ya, itu... Itu adalah matri syarikat, bukan? Ya. Itu adalah sebuah jam. Tetapi saya ingin menjaga keadaan. Jadi saya akan cuba menjawab... ...berjawab pertanyaan yang anda boleh dapat... ...sebaik-baik saja sebaik-baik saja sebaik-baik saja. Jadi ya, tolonglah. Sebenarnya, saya menjaga kepada... ...kawan-kawan saya yang juga di sini untuk mendukung. Jadi jika ada pertanyaan yang susah, saya akan menjaga kepada mereka. Jadi itu yang mereka di sini untuk. Oleh itu, mereka hanya akan mendukung dan berkata... ...tidak, tolonglah... ...pada pertanyaan yang lain. Jadi ya, mereka di sini untuk mendukung saya. Dan kemudian saya juga melihat banyak lelaki-lelaki-lelaki... ...perempuan yang saya berjumpa... ...dengan ketahuan dan ketahuan. Dan kemudian ia baik untuk menjadi kawan-kawan... ...dan kawan-kawan baru yang saya telah membuat. Ya. Terima kasih kerana menjaga saya. Terima kasih kerana menjaga saya. Terima kasih kerana menjaga saya. Terima kasih kerana menjaga saya. Ya. Baiklah. Okey, mungkin... ...mungkin sebelum anda mula... ...taskan pertanyaan, mungkin... ...saya akan berikan pertanya tentang diri saya. Okey. Dan mungkin apa yang kita lakukan. Saya rasa mungkin gaf-gaf... ...atau mungkin U.S dan... ...kontek perkembangan sangat elu-elusif, saya rasa. Jadi, ia sebabnya, saya rasa... ...saya akan mempunyai pertanyaan untuk tanya saya. Jadi, mungkin sedikit pertanyaan tentang diri saya. Jadi, saya bermula dari... ...saya telah membuat perjalanan dengan naturen... ...dan mungkin saya... ...masuk pelajaran... ...berapa 18 tahun lalu. Wow. Ya, jadi itu seperti... ...dan kemudian saya adalah pengalaman... ...menulis... ...segera sekarang... ...saya akan mempunyai bahasa Lingo. Kamu pernah dengar tentang Lingo? Ya. Oh. Ya. Dan kemudian kita membuat pengalaman... ...untuk menerimu pengalaman... ...on CD-ROM. Jadi, saya rasa banyak orang... ...tidak tahu apa CD-ROM itu, kan? Ya. Jadi, orang yang bergabung dengan saya... ...yang tahu apa CD-ROM itu... ...saya akan meletakkan keadaan kamu. Jadi, jangan menerima. Baiklah. Jadi, saya bekerja sebagai pembangunan multimedia... ...dan kemudian... ...selepas itu, selama sekitar 5 tahun... ...selepas itu, saya pergi... ...dan saya pergi ke belajar... ...dan orang tanya saya... ...apa... ...saya tinggalkan... ...dengan pembangunan... ...dan pergi... ...dengan belajar. Kemudian saya akan berkata... ...templetmonster.com... ...sangat kerja saya. Jadi, ia adalah masa... ...semasa... ...kamu ada... ...tentang dot-com... ...tentang dot-com hari... ...dan kemudian... ...saya juga menunjukkan... ...tentang dot-com crash... ...dan kemudian... ...tentang dot-com crash... ...saya berada di... ...di tengah-tengahnya. Ya. Baiklah. Jadi... ...saya pergi ke belajar... ...selepas sekitar 5 tahun. Jadi, saya belajar... ...design web... ...dan komputer manusia... ...dan kemudian... ...saya ingin... ...buka... ...UX. Sebenarnya... ...sebelum itu... ...saya menyebabkan banyak nama... ...saya menyebabkan... ...saya menyebabkan... ...komputer manusia yang telah dikawal. Dan kemudian... ...berkemahat dikawal. Tapi saya rasa... ...berapa sederhana... ...saya beri kejutan... ...dalam senarai semiotik... ...maksudnya... ...bagaimana... ...saya ini beribu... ...dalam deskripsi... ...untuk pelanggan... ...selepas itu... ...bagaimana pelanggan. Jadi, ketika saya melampaskan... ...cukup... ...boleh mengajar... ...semuanya... ...kacaukan setiap piksel... ...kemudian... ...memá yakin beritahu kepada pelanggan... ...telah ia men workshop saya. Saya mengandungkan cara saya bermula. Saya suka mengandungkan sehingga mungkin dua tahun lalu. Seorang kakak saya, saya mengandungkan idea. Selepas itu, idea saya akan memulai department UX. Dan kemudian, kamu mahu membantu saya memulai lab. Berapa lama saya memulai? Beberapa tahun lalu. Tetapi ia berlaku pada masa yang lebih lama. Dia minta saya memulai dan berkata, mungkin memulai pengalaman dan pengalaman untuk membantu kita melihat masyarakat yang diperlukan. Sekarang, itu salah satu inisiatif. Saya rasa yang pertama di strategi pekerjaan pekerjaan adalah memulai pekerjaan pekerjaan di depan. Sekarang, saya rasa kamu minta, bagaimana pemeriksaan pemeriksaan pemeriksaan? Semua kamu sangat baik. Tiada siapa yang memulai tangan kamu. Jadi, itu cara saya bermula. Saya memulai pemeriksaan sekitar dua tahun lalu. Kemudian, kita memiliki lab dengan bilik pemeriksaan dan kemudian dengan pemeriksaan pemeriksaan dan sebagainya. Kita memiliki lab pengalaman. Tapi untuk memulai pemeriksaan pemeriksaan. Jadi, ini pemeriksaan kita sebagai pemeriksaan yang kita ingin membuat pemeriksaan digital dalam pemeriksaan. Tapi mungkin satu pemeriksaan pada masa atau satu pemeriksaan pemeriksaan pada masa. Jadi, ini sudah menjadi dua tahun lalu. Jadi, mana pemeriksaan yang telah diletakkan atau dalam proses pemeriksaan? Saya bercakap mengenai pengalaman pemeriksaan industri. Jadi, sejauh ini, salah satu pemeriksaan yang pemeriksaan telah diletakkan adalah pemeriksaan Pemeriksaan Pemeriksaan Pemeriksaan Pemeriksaan. Awak dengar pemeriksaan Pemeriksaan Pemeriksaan? Pemeriksaan ini adalah pemeriksaan yang jika anda mempunyai pemeriksaan dengan pemeriksaan di mana pemeriksaan Sakatik hanya perlu memperiksaan pemeriksaan dan pemeriksaan orang-orang. Dan kemudian, anda akan datang untuk pemeriksaan pertama. Jadi, itu satu pemeriksaan. Yang lain adalah MSO. Jadi, yang anda dapat ambil gambar kemudian anda akan menyebabkan keadaan di seluruh perjalanan. Kemudian, team UX kami hanya membuat revamp pemeriksaan pemeriksaan Pemeriksaan. Jadi, pemeriksaan pemeriksaan. Pemeriksaan adalah pemeriksaan pemeriksaan sekarang. Jadi, anda harus ingat untuk memainkan pemeriksaan anda. Dan, periksaan pemeriksaan. Mereka masih ada banyak pemeriksaan untuk memperiksaan. Tetapi, ia adalah pemeriksaan yang penting yang kami buat sebagai pemeriksaan. Okey. Jadi, mungkin anda boleh berkongsi dengan kami bagaimana pemeriksaan anda adalah satu pemeriksaan yang berlainan dalam Pemeriksaan Pemeriksaan? Jadi, mungkin saya akan beritahu sedikit tentang pemeriksaan. Jadi, kami mempunyai Pemeriksaan Pemeriksaan yang besar, kan? Saya rasa anda akan melihat. Mereka tahu Pemeriksaan Pemeriksaan Pemeriksaan Pemeriksaan yang jelek di PA, kan? Jadi, bagaimana perlukan Pemeriksaan Pemeriksaan Pemeriksaan Pemeriksaan GafTag? Jadi, kami seorang Pemeriksaan Pemeriksaan dan kemudian ada courier dan ada mereka yang bersajar di PA dan bagaimanamani yang berkenaan anda untuk menghormati GafTag? Jadi, anda berlakon di GafTag. Jadi, GafTag adalah pemeriksaan besar. Pemeriksaan besar, kami masih memiliki pemeriksaan lain. Dan kemudian, dengan pemerintah digital, kita mempunyai projek-design dan perkembangan. Dan kemudian, kita mempunyai pembinaan yang lebih kecil atau pembinaan. Dan kemudian, UX adalah di bawah sana. Jadi, untuk memberi anda skim untuk perkara. Jadi, hanya untuk keadaan, semua orang menggunakan, kita seperti yang terbaik, atau saya mempunyai pemerintah, tidak, saya tidak. Sebenarnya, jika anda mempunyai pembinaan tentang CPF dan sebagainya, anda akan mengambil kepada agensi yang betul. Jadi, kita hanya mempunyai pembinaan yang sangat kecil. Jadi, saya rasa jika anda ingin tahu, kita hanya mempunyai pembinaan yang sangat kecil, mungkin lebih daripada saya, anda 7, yang mencari lapangan, dan kemudian kita memperkenalkan agensi. Kemudian, kita juga mempunyai pembinaan yang lain yang mempunyai pembinaan pembinaan yang mereka sendiri, tetapi pembinaan kita hanya mempunyai 7 orang, dan mencari pembinaan untuk agensi, mungkin satu kali. Jadi, 7 orang, anda semua UX? Ya, jadi saya rasa, perkara lain yang kita cuba memperkenalkan, adalah UX sangat besar. Dan kemudian, dari mana saya datang dari, mungkin 20 tahun lalu, tidak ada apa-apa yang disebut UX, ia hanya mempunyai pembinaan atau pembinaan manusia. Jadi, UX sudah menjadi besar, sekarang juga pembinaan saya, ada yang lebih baik di bekerja, ada yang lebih baik di desain, ada yang lebih baik di mencari psychologi, untuk membantu kita membuat pembinaan desain. Okey, jadi, bila-bila, saya rasa ada banyak orang yang memperkenalkan pembinaan dan sebagainya. Tolong bawa saya ke sini, saya rasa sangat... Mari kita lihat jika kita boleh memperkenalkan mereka untuk memperkenalkan mereka, jika tidak, saya akan memperkenalkan mereka untuk 45 minit dan ia akan menjadi ux yang sangat teruk. Ya, ya. Okey, saya bermaksud, orang lain boleh memperkenalkan pembinaan anda juga. Ini adalah pembinaan kali. Wah, 100 orang pembinaan. Saya sudah memperkenalkan pembinaan, pembinaan kerja, dan ini adalah, wah, 100 kali pembinaan. Dan sementara menunggu bagi orang lain untuk memperkenalkan pembinaan, anda tahu siapa mempunyai pembinaan anda? Tidak. Ya Tuhan. Jadi, ia sebenarnya daripada Litern Hall. Ya, dan... Jangan risaukan saya. Kita akan memperkenalkan mereka nanti. Terima kasih. Terima kasih. Okey, jadi, mari kita memperkenalkan. Terima kasih. Terima kasih. Terima kasih. Ya. Saya ada sebuah pertanyaan. Saya ingin tahu apa yang berlaku untuk memperkenalkan dan memperkenalkan pembinaan kerja dan pembinaan. Di Singapura, kan? Saya tahu ada beberapa pembinaan, tapi saya tidak mengerti. Jadi, setiap pembinaan yang anda memperkenalkan, anda akan melihat pembinaan Melayan di atas kiri. Dan itu... dan orang akan berkata, ya, itu benar. Tapi itu adalah pembinaan, dan saya rasa ia juga membawa kepercayaan. Saya rasa kemudian, ada juga pembinaan lain untuk membuatnya lebih berguna. Untuk kita cuba melihat strategi konten. Jadi, mungkin, memastikan bahawa apabila orang pergi berada di atas pembinaan, dan memastikan bahawa anda memastikan bahawa pembinaan yang paling penting di atas pembinaan. Jadi, tidak ada apa-apa yang berlaku di industri. Tapi kita hanya perlukan peraturan yang diperkenalkan untuk... Pembinaan diperkenalkan. Jadi, kita cuba. Jadi, ia bermula dengan pembinaan web dan membuatnya web responsif dan sebagainya. Memastikan bahawa ada pembinaan, memastikan bahawa ada beberapa pembinaan media sosial, tetapi kontennya masih sangat berlaku dengan perjalanan. Ya. Jadi, saya berharap saya akan jawab pertanyaan. Pertanyaan saya adalah bahawa saya menggunakan pembinaan dari NLV. Dan ia berkata, anda mesti mempunyai para pembinaan web di Singapura. Ya. Tapi sehingga saya boleh beritahu para pembinaan yang diperkenalkan di mana-mana. Jadi, saya sangat tertarik. Untuk pembinaan, saya tidak berada di web... Saya tidak berada di pembinaan web, tetapi saya rasa bahawa kita mempunyai pembinaan. Jadi, banyak jenis pembinaan berada di sana. Bagaimana saya dapat tahu? Bagaimana anda mempunyai pembinaan web? Bagaimana pembinaan web? Kita juga mempunyai masa yang susah. Jadi, pada akhirnya, banyak pembinaan berdiri, saya akan berkata, maaf, bolehkah anda? Ada di mana-mana? Ada di mana-mana? Tapi saya rasa saya hanya fikir ia lebih cepat untuk mempunyai pembinaan di HQ. Dan ia hanya menyebabkan kepada saya. Jadi, ia sepatutnya ada di mana-mana. Jika anda perlukan, saya akan tahu. Jadi, anda akan lebih baik. Jadi, pembinaan berdiri, dan ada jenis pembinaan pembinaan? Bagaimana anda melihat mencari seseorang untuk mencari pembinaan? Kita pasti mencari seseorang. Saya rasa pada akhirnya, saya rasa kita telah berjalan dengan banyak pembinaan, terutamanya dengan orang yang datang, saya ingin mengubah dunia, banyak-banyak mereka. Maksud saya, tiada apa yang salah. Kita harus mengubah dunia. Tapi saya rasa apa yang kita mencari adalah juga pasangan. Kadang-kadang, jika anda bercakap dengan seorang, anda dapat menghentikan entusiasm tentang perkara yang berlaku, perkara yang berlaku. Saya berharap bahawa saya mencari entusiasm tentang perkara yang berlaku. Tetapi, kita mencari yang berlaku sedikit. Sudah tentu, dengan portfolio, dengan hubungan. Saya rasa pada akhirnya, pada hari ini, kita mencari banyak pembinaan daripada kawan-kawan, dan perkara itu. Kemudian, mereka akan datang dan bercakap dengan kita. Jadi, ia selalu bercakap, dan bercakap dengan mereka. Jadi, nanti anda dapat bercakap dengan saya setelah ini. Ya. Baiklah. Ada apa-apa pembinaan? Ya. Saya ingin tahu cerita di belakang pembinaan ini. Oh, cerita? Sebenarnya, saya tidak... Ya, yang itu ialah bos saya. Ya. Tapi, saya rasa sebuah idea adalah bahawa UX telah menjadi buzzword di mana-mana. Saya rasa, saya tidak ingin mencari kelas uks-kos神 tanya dan ia tr persistensi. Tapi itu juga membuat perempuan di sini lupakannya dan beri bitai. napas Hapal UFO-nyaTT? Kemudian, mereka akan bercakap dengan mereka della petaf— kemudian mereka akan berkvalina, jadi Hapal UFO-nyaTT adalah cara untuk pergi, kerana jika saya tidakклад atau apa-apa, rina tak selalunya. Jadi, saya rasa ia mel всё datang untuk MONTU visiting berkira sewagannya di sini. Kemudian, Dan kemudian pembentangan itu dikeluarkan. Tapi pada akhirnya, kami juga memperkenalkan bahawa IDA dan kami juga memperkenalkan banyak memperkenalkan u-X dan pembentangan. Jadi idea ini adalah kita ingin memberikan kemahiran kita supaya kami dapat menghidupi agensi kami yang lebih baik untuk menghidupi kemahiran dan mungkin sebagai pembentangan, kami harus mencari pembentangan. Saya rasa idea ini tiada siapa di sini. Saya harap saya cakap perkara yang betul kerana... Jadi kami adalah pembentangan untuk mencari pembentangan agensi agensi, pembentangan digital, terutamanya. Dan kemudian, saya akan mencari dan beritahu mungkin kita boleh membantu mereka dengan kemahiran kami. Dan itu... di neraka. Dan... dua tahun ke bawah... dua tahun ke bawah. Ya, ya. Apa yang menyebabkan pembentangan yang paling susah? Saya mengantipkan itu, jadi sebenarnya, saya menyebabkan. Dan ia seperti... Tapi walaupun ini pembentangan, jadi ia okey. Saya perlu... Jadi semalam, saya mempunyai retrospek. Dan saya mula berfikir... kerana dua tahun ini telah menjadi sangat sibuk untuk kami. Dan kami sangat berterima kasih kerana... agensi datang mencari untuk kami dan berkata, kita mahu melakukan u-X. Dan... kami tidak benar-benar duduk sebagai pembentangan untuk mencari... apa yang salah dan apa yang betul. Kerana kita hanya mempunyai agensi dan agensi dan kemudian pembentangan. Sebelum malam ini, saya sediakan diri saya... dan berfikir, sebuah pembentangan. Jadi, okey, okey, okey, okey. Jadi, basically the challenge is still the team size. Okey, as much as we want to, we only like maybe a team of seven. And then plus some interns and things like that. So, there's that much that we can do. Ya, to help agency. And because of that also, we have to turn away agencies. Please help one of you. Sorry, sorry. As of now, we have engagement till maybe end of the year. And then the other thing... and then the other thing is that we are also looking at... because also of the scope of things, because our idea is to help agency transform digital services. But given the resources and so we are so packed that we can only like maybe just say, you know, government agencies, they have like 50 e-services in one bottle, right? It's very common. It's very common. And it's very real. And they really do not know what to do with it. And then so we just say, maybe we can just help you do two? Ah, things like that. But given the given time, you help you do two? Then they say, then what about the rest of like the 38, you know, that kind of thing. I don't know. We are learning along the way, but we are learning along the way, but of course that is why we have industry partners to help us also. So that's one of the struggle, the team size. The other one is a lot of them is the agency will come knocking on our door and say like, my boss ask me to come and look for you. And for what? They're like, UX, we just want to improve our UX. But they do not have an idea of what is UX. Or they will rather say like, UX is equals to the revamp of my interface or revamp of my website. And that's it, full stop. They don't give us time to do proper research. So the agencies that will give us like allocate us time to do research, proper research. And then sort of, we really appreciate these agencies. Yeah. Then the other one, the other one is maybe the sometimes when actually the agencies look up to us and say like, oh, you're the best in UX or something like a consultant. But at the end of it all, they will come back and question our methodology. And I just thought that it's quite ironic. So it's just like like for focus group, simple as that, just a very simple one, you say, focus group. How many people are there? Maybe eight will be a quite effective kind of converse, you know, together insights, right? Eight, maybe I say max 10. And then other day, you'll see like plus one, plus two, you know. And then there will be a 20. Or even, we do a lot of usability testing and then they will ask what is the maximum number that you need to validate the design. So we say, oh, by research, we say every time we say magic number is five. They say e, but my boss say, can it bring 20? So then we will explain to them nicely and say that even with 20, you get the same result as with the five. Or even, as if the max I'll go with six or seven. But they say, no, no, no, I need 20 because it's from a quality kind of methodology. Then they just wanted a quantity kind of sample size. They always ask about what is the sample size, how real is your data and things like that. So that's what we get a lot of. Very well, I suddenly become an outpour of my 42 years. The challenges are very similar to agencies that our vendors have faced. I'm sure, right? I'm sure. But they are always nicer to us than to. To vendor because their boss ask the agencies to work with us. So they're sort of like a collaboration spirit. But I think when I see how they me talk to the vendor, sometimes I just feel lucky. But we also we get some request they are very out of blue. I just have one of the we were just doing testing then the top that the head came down and then try to ask us to change our methodology, change the whole UI things like that. Then when everything all else fails, then you say, gus tape, right? So there are pros and cons but we are quite blessed so far, so far. That they are quite nice to us. So there's of course the usual top down kind of factor. Yes, definitely, definitely. If it's like vendors I have to be like 50. Why not 100, right? But I think industry partners I don't like to use the word vendors also. Because I think the last week and this week I had a chance to talk to a couple of industry partners because of about tender and it's one of them I think we see failure faces. Actually we find that we learn a lot from these people. I mean it should not be like vendor kind of relationship. It should be a learning kind of relationship. So that's what I get from say, no actually they are industry partners what I would call it. They are no more struggles already. Ya, I see no more struggles here do it yourself as well. You're getting more comfortable. Any questions from the floor? So now we can. Oh yes, awesome. Do you have a project that you can say that you and your team are really proud of and could because if it has a success starting all internally and externally internally did that change to mindset and the user experience at the end of the day? That's a long question sir. Given that is well it's two years two years old kind of team our first project I think maybe one of one of the achievement was the UX team's achievement was my text portal UX that we did for them and I think my team will it's a team effort definitely I just want to stress that but I think what we did was we go in and then we say that no we have to test every step and that's what we did so everything that we designed we will test it and then we also stand by our design defend our design and then one year later so we ran like about 23 23 e-services throughout the year so it's step by step so that is probably one of our proudest moments so I think when the text portal this year when I still remember it was the second gen when when my text portal went live then I mean the whole thing was yay so that I think I felt like a proud mother ya so that is probably one of our highlights then the other and then I think the relationship was good because the mindset of IRIS was very, very open also so they were very receptive of us and then when we try to bring in new changes and they say okay can you meet us more often they say okay things like that so that's one of the proudest UX it's like really UX-UX a kind of project so sir sir a quick question regarding my text portal so how long did it take and what was the team size the team size was about 5 of us 5 of us but we didn't do development but all of us we did different services it's all concurrent because there are so many so the whole project was about the whole project was about a year so from kick off all the way can you hear the whole project was about a year so sorry I think that it is a question it was a question so curious so it's actually a two part question ouch no, no, no you can only have a one part question combine the question we want to especially to government side how do you balance accountability accessibility and security of the of your current projects versus say previous projects not even government side for example like this was a challenge challenges you face for security is it security is accessibility and accountability because accessibility is versus security right yep but I think maybe a little bit about my team we are more from the UX portion so I think the development side we will you know sometimes it's a technical team that does it but I think but we definitely accessibility when we design but not I mean the security is when when they develop it then we will need to take from them take the direction from them also many more like for example certain government portal like on different pages they still slightly incongruent information information and what that does not quite match up in terms of of example say you're applying for certain thing do you have a like agency in mind Right now Okay No because I wanted to ask what is the information or is it the content because if it was technical then maybe it's really beyond my team I'm not quite sure Like say it was too fun because it was also about asking about UX responsibility where does it end in your opinion it's like you only assume I mean there's limited manpower there's limited time you're dealing with a vast area of agencies so say agency X ask you for some redesign where does that end and where you say okay I think I've done the best job we can here and where's the way you guys are in times Okay so before every project we deal with we will do sort of planning and then we will say like we will just give you up to high fidelity and then after that the vendor will take over yeah but at the end of the day is that the agency will still have the domain knowledge it's not us because we just go in just try to help them like you know understand the users internal external and then after that we try to design the redesign process and then which typically a UX project will take about four to six months and then after that we try to come up with a nice high fidelity prototype and then we will just pass it back to them yeah so but of course when we are also required let's say for my tax portal we were also required to go a little bit further and then when the tech team comes up with the actual implementation we have to make sure that we go and check you know very, very design centric so you say your pixels not quite there and this one is to be a rounded corner and this is our design things like that so we have to go in so I would say as much as we want to we would like to accompany the project all the way to the end but I think a lot of times that we quite constrain by resources so there is a lot of education process of course educating of different stakeholders I saw you got a special tool which one the flash card thing you know I googled ma very share ya maybe share with us because I'm a teacher at heart in nature I just wanted to advocate so I saw what is the best way to reach out to agency so when we run workshops instead of I'm not good at karaoke as y'all can tell alright okay so when we run workshops we find that a lot of it is just downloading information so what is like maybe we can workshop on design thinking or even heuristic so we started with heuristic so we say what makes the best good website and then after that I just thought the users or the participants needed to understand learn by doing I think that's the most effective way for agencies to learn so then I I took the Jacob Nelson's 10 heuristic and then made that into cards and then I was distributed during the during the session and then with a card it's easier than rather than a checklist and then then they can learn to evaluate their own project or web learn for their website so that was the flashcard kind of thing because very very teacher not very so but I think the agencies were quite appreciative of that effort rather than just downloading and give you an idea this is my PDF this is my slide so at the end of the day they can bring like a deck of cards home yeah okay do you still have that? I didn't bring okay are there any other tools or that was one of those? that was one of them I was quite keen on having ideation card deck also so previously also we did one with PS21 office one of the facilitation doing ideation and product conceptualisation so also I did up like a deck of cards so that the splashcard think of this and try to force fit whatever that you see into the website and try to come up with something new so it's a how might we yeah how might we just an image kind of thing I see any questions? yep yeah it's great touch on education that's kind of where my question follows so blue here it's done tenders for the government I I it's fine but is there since you guys are going to education following UX when the tenders go out a lot of times they're looking for like full concepts when they say mockups they mean like full designs to see what your pitch is if I was wondering if there's education you're helping the agencies who write those tenders if they're going more towards your more modern UX methodologies where you're doing research you're doing prototyping to get to the solution and then the actual eventually the UI and the final design and is there an effort to make that more yes I think actually I just met I met up with an agency just before I came I'm a tiger so I don't know if you met Fred no no yeah yeah it's another one but I think I think many of the times agencies just come to consider they are just very reliant on vendors so when vendors say like do do UX or I want to propose the UX activities they are at the mercies of the vendors hence lack of a better term and then they ask us for sort of like is there something that we can share so that they know that they are not being taken for a ride or things like that so so we said yeah we can help them so I just say that we can share some of the documents that we have helped to other agencies so I think one of the agencies that we do also that we just sit out well they have engaged a vendor already and then so my team will just go in and just like sort of advise yeah the agency yeah so I think slowly you know because we really are very full team I understand I was just curious that there's a somewhat effort or at least they're interested because they're coming to you asking for UX expertise but a lot of times also we will always say like there's no right or wrong answer in UX I guess but there is also a ton of methodologies I'm there so I think they just but I think I just always tell them make sure that at the end of it so what we advocate is a lot of testing so make sure that whatever that whatever prototype you have just do testing and testing and testing and make sure that maybe the vendor is more they will be able to do the changes based on the recommendations yeah so I think that is one of the message that we will bring across so that's the tip for those that are testing and know what I say must put testing in the blind yes and you can shout out to you because I saw the guy on you are you from the agency are you from the agency no but in case of things that I've seen it and really it's a breakthrough because there's always that problem we do a lot of UX and UI right but the main question I want to ask is like one of the key things we saw in a lot of government tenders is that UX and UI are part of a development scope yes so then you're putting the cut before the or the cost so we didn't mind so many times because the development specs are out the tender is in then you can't change the development anymore so I think this is a problem that needs to be addressed it's not on my level but then yes but okay but I think to maybe explain a little bit further I think with the ongoing education and advocacy of UX right I think now currently we're also looking at new ways to engage agencies and now we have a new tender that just focuses on UX so I think if agencies would like to just do UX activities and if you are strapped then we just say you know you can go and look for this industry partner they also can do that so we are in the midst so I think we are recognising the fact that UX is needed so I think but I think it's still a change in mindset because a lot of times I think it's quite a it's quite a sad state where people just think UX is equals to UI right I mean I'm sure we get that a lot and then or things like oh I just came back from a user testing session so even even when we we publish this this guideline that says that there must be ample white space on your website ample white space and then somebody came and say that eh there's too much white space on the user's two column so I put my form on the left so it's easier to fill UX right easier to fill then the lady came in and say that eh there's a lot of white space here can you like bring the form up to the right column so that users don't need to scroll yeah so yeah so I think they have like a very fear of a white space syndrome so I think everybody just must fill up so which is why I which is why our team mindfully put it in the check there's this usability checklist there's this that things should not look cluttered and then there should be enough white space too so that I think it's good for the user's eyes also yeah so I think yeah I understand what you're saying sorry another question no what about education like for example you're booking what is agencies and you're only 7 people so what about education are there any like additional workshops or there or even certifications for the agencies yeah perhaps because you mentioned about planting yes so so then actually I met Joe Joe Joe oh oh okay yeah iRus but the thing is that education is something that I think it's very important and I also notice that in the community in Singapore itself there's not many certification proper certification most are certification for completion certificate participation certification participation participation so things like this and because it flows down to the industry the standards right the government would advocate so in in our department we have another team who looks at strategies and things like that so I think one of the one of the initiative is that they are actually starting to have a conversation with agencies so where agencies are able to sign up and then it's like a lunch talk to talk just about UX and we call it UXpresso so UXpresso okay now we all learn the UXpresso and so yeah shout out to Jonathan who thought of it so yeah so during the workshop we aim to also we invite speakers to come in to give talks about how they use UX to transform the agency or the business and then at the other part we also hope to educate so one of them is checklist and things like that so how to learn to I think yeah I think most importantly you have to teach them how to do it you know or maybe when you see a good website or when you see a good user experience you are able to say that yeah that's a good experience they should learn I think the agency should learn how to do it rather than they keep coming back to it to ask and say did I do it right you know things like that yeah so I think that is what we are trying to do to really ask them for self help okay any other questions from the floor yes okay I'm Natasha just a quick question just want to know how you work with the government today usually like you've done the design pass it to them and maybe do development and then like hands out there's different modes we actually have the in-house capability of development so we have a development team running on agile also but we have but there are a lot of projects also so sometimes when agencies come to us can you develop a whole website for us or can you develop a whole app for us and then we will look at we look at our resources and then and commitment and then if let's say we are not able to do that and the best part the best that we can offer is that why don't we do the UX for you at least you know the UX is done and make sure that whatever that we pass to you is being validated before I pass it back to your vendor so there's quite a lot of different modes so we can just do the UX or we can just come in at the end of the whole process and just do usability testing for the agency or we can develop the whole end to end just a sorry just a check is there anyone sort of behind in the con here is the audio okay yeah I should start going to Carol came off okay yes so with the topic around you all have different kind of modes as a trial and it's quite a few example where you go in and you try to help them certain parts whether it's to our body or whether it's mind text so the citizen what I'm curious about is has that like what sort of plan has that been and is there any term long term plan after these two how did you all actually work with the other government agency to make sure that overall there's a three year plan or something to make sure that eventually the whole experience will be right so for my text for example it's only partially right now okay I am speaking from what I know because that was pretty high level what their plan is I think we have I think our boss our director his vision is actually to set up satellite teams in agencies and then in this satellite satellite teams they will learn to do pair programming pair designing and then teach the agency in agile and then UX lean UX the kind of process and then show them so I think that is the I think the vision of the director so it's still usually within the agency itself to plan the roadmap yes but yeah but so on our side is that if we would like to do that to really to reach out to even more people so one of the engagement is to have satellite teams yeah at the agency maybe for about a year then they'll come back hmm yeah okay any questions just a question are there any plans to build like a master guideline for UX in general because it seems to me that now you're focusing on getting the UX design to be like in-house per agency but I think a good direction might be to get the UX to be like consolidated throughout the whole government to crowd the government the Estonian government has managed to do to website them and compresses many different kind of functionalities I just want to can we do the same thing for Singapore or it's not against yet we had that conversation with agencies and to buy their best of knowledge I think the agencies don't want to have the same look and feel for everything it's just like gaf.uk everyone that you go to to look the same so I think when my colleagues were having discussion at the top level and then they just maybe say that maybe it's not that good idea because I need to differentiate maybe if I'm STB I would want to look a bit more dynamic and then as opposed to more serious but opposite standards we are trying so our team is working on standards so try to make it usable that's the very least usable, findable these services that are short and delightful to pay your taxes with you know tonight is all about taxes and not pay your tax like when? 18 April, right? I think this is Al do you also do product management like managing the kind of products that every agency just product management services? ya we no, no I am not too ours is just very project so I think when we take on a project from an agency we will just do end to end so I think the scrum master will be attached to the project at the end of the project then of course the scrum master will come back as a team so we don't attach a PM to the agency other plans to I mean you have same consensus more than just UI yes other plans to I mean you partly answer this but to extend it further even to like say practices within other organizations I told you mention agile scrum sort of thing so I think first of all I am the best pretty dynamic example if you look at MTI it's another number that should be a bit more dynamic but maybe not as much as they could I think the next step I think as much as I want to I think the next step I would my own personal wish is that the agencies will start looking at content strategy I think we are pretty quite there for I think in terms of UI but I think what makes or break site is the the IA the information architecture and of course the content strategy I think after working with several agencies for two years we realized that a lot of times the initiative the intention is good I want the better UX for my team so I think the COPCOM will sort of drive that COPCOM of the IT team will drive that after we done it we leave it we give back the templates to the team but then it's the individual departments that sort of like boom flood flood everything with the content so I think the next step that we would like advocate is actually the content strategy part really right I mean the labelling I mean simple things as labelling so that is what I think my team would like to do but it's just that we are not content strategies because we all pretty much many of us are design train so we only know that we can only advise in a certain way but also we always say maybe you should have content strategies on the team to help Any particular agency which is doing well content strategy Contents I don't know the usual one that we always cite is MOM I don't know so I think that is the current IT team website to go to everybody say I want to look at MOM website because it succeeds enough and people are able to transact very very very fast with it So so maybe on the topic on those who are joining the industry or new what are your opinions or advise to do that I believe that there is quite a number of those who are new or just entering the industry but then none Oh that's nice to hear that's really very very nice I don't maybe coming from maybe very old designer kind of mindset I think what it may be the buzzword now so we wouldn't know what is the negative buzzword is and so I think you need to I think just advise is that really just to look inside yourself like what what does it keep you going because at the end of the day like for myself my interest in iconography semiotics things like that and how to improve user experience in general so even when my project get repetitive it's able to get me going because that's I like it like that I've seen other people who are who are getting a bit jaded also because because UX is it may sound fun oh I want to go and do research yeah it's all I want to want to talk to people but I think the matter of fact is that if you do it on a daily basis and describing itself is a killer but I think the analysis of the data is also gets us down also so we have to pre-empt that to the newer designers who want to join a few I mean we get our rewards when people give you good comments but we also have to caution these people for joining that there are days that it's just you know I have to meet I think when we are doing user testing sometimes the user come in and they look very disinterested the whole the whole testing no matter how good a facilitator I am is very difficult to try to can you look enthusiastic you're on camera I think there are days there are days they are dead then it gets us gets to us also so I have just the testing 5 out of 5 users 4 users are there then sometimes you just tell yourself whether I'm asking the right question or not so I think at the end of it it's still very much your passion or what is your intention of joining yeah because the process is repetitive you know need to analyse a lot yeah yes just a question so how do you quantify a success of a UX project for agencies yeah or what but you know every e-service that you complete in the government there's a rate our service the mandatory like 3 questions how satisfied are you with the service today so if we get that sometimes the agency benchmark on that yeah and other things really through feedback and then maybe when we hold workshops then we talk to people so we the KPI is not really set by us by set by the agency so sometimes it's also the number of call rates sometimes you know the data centre they receive a lot of calls so I think one of the strategy or one of the yeah strategy is to reduce the number of calls to the call centre so that's one of the key measurement the other one is through Google analytics analytic tools and see where's the bounce off rate so if you might be able to complete the whole paying of car fines or how much time do I take to pay a car fine things like that those that are on collecting money as to pass the test yes yes I mean there was I think there was some but yeah they were saying like we all should pay our car fines in like 3 clicks we're making it that easy for you to pay fines but I mean pay anything but I think it should just be seamless I don't know any other questions yes yes so I think we can share more about your US research methods besides as far as US research getting to the more agile design process oh okay so for my team our research method is depending on the agency so if the agency comes to us and we don't know what to do then we will then ask them their problem so usually we'll have like stakeholder meetings and then after that we will then suggest from there but so far we do a lot of focus groups I think that is the quickest way one of the projects it required us to go and do observation so far focus group interviews surveys all the qual and qual and then for the agile for the agile we have seen other and our sister team does it so they will have the UX person is print zero and then they will think about all the product and then produce product backlog and then after that then the development team will take over and then the UX person will just sort of like be attached there and then do the iterations and things like that yes okay okay just to follow up when you say focus group do you mean focus group evaluation of a UI or an observation oh focus group to listen to a user's sentiments so we will have the citizens come in and then it may be one of the one that I've run is that through the MSO app yeah so I just say how do you use the app so this through focus group we usually mean with the citizens okay for the deploy application yes the deploy yes sorry this is really his question and the one that you said earlier regarding the KPIs that the individual government sets besides UI, UX on the digital touch points is there an overarching customer experience mindset coming on just CX, UX it's kind of related so I'm just wondering if there's a movement towards a more CX view of a holistic citizen care or for sure I think that is actually there's at the right agency at the right government level so but for sure I can vouch for that that CX and UX is coming together so so one of our projects we were looking at counter design and things like that so it goes beyond your digital so it really depends on what the agency wants but of course if it's part of it then we should even we should look at the counter design should but very much we're still on the very digital touch point so far as of two years in government so he's question you're not cek cek cek if it's not me already just a quick question for purpose how do you find this citizens does the agency choose it for you or you have criteria that helps you decide who to have a very good question so usually we'll ask the agency to look for the citizens for us so and then what we are doing in GavTech is that we are asking for participation from citizens so that whenever that we need we need when we need when we need users to do testing whether it's testing or whether it's focus groups at least we are trying to build up a list of participants so far we have only like about maybe 30 and then so we are hoping to build up the list and then so when if agency say I cannot find people then we shall just say ah then we have a list so you do profile the users that undergo the focus groups profile yes so that we will tell them what we kind of need what kind of profiles that we need then they will look for the users for us so now what we are doing on our initiative is really to build up the whole recruitment participant list first then before we do screening then so how do you incentivize your participants to go for the this all motivation of no you are playing a role of a citizen you know about incentives we always we will suggest we will suggest to agencies to give incentives and it's really up to the agency whether they want to give incentives or not but I think being a great government I think to give to buy vouchers and things like that also we need to account for and why how many people if their absentee stand then what I'm going to do with the extra voucher so we have we have a case where I think the agency bought like 10 vouchers because we expecting 10 people and one didn't turn up then the poor person have to buy the voucher for her own consumption something like that I mean sounds really good so sometimes we do cut the c-call make sure they turn up incentives so we are down to maybe the one last question okay yes yes are there any agencies you've seen that are the cutting edge of the next level of the user experience like AR, VR and platforms for the users? that is beyond me so far I think ours is still very much on digital touch point so it's still very user interface so yeah that the question is beyond what I can answer I'm sorry yeah okay so I know everyone has a lot of burning question to ask but we are really out of time so let's give a round of applause to Lakan not to say fine about that I really don't represent the government you know I'm just just doing trying to do UX yeah so please marry but I hope I answered some of the questions I think especially with a lot of vendors vendors and tenders and things like that I tried to answer to the best I can but actually taken on by the other department also yeah but if you need anymore help then I can direct you to the correct person maybe that's the least I can do user experience yes okay so thank you thank you