Jorinda has most of our budget numbers, but I'm going to talk to you just about the in a whole numbers not specific amounts that need to be adjusted We're talking about first of all amending this year's budget. Okay, this year's budget. So right now given the workload and We can talk some more about that a minute We're on track to spend we're going to talk mainly wages because the rest of our expenses are generally flat Mileage went up a hair last year that probably related to the also the mileage rate changes as well So mileage were somewhere in the neighborhood of about $3,000 would be a budgeted I think we were budgeted for 2,500 last year we came in at 2,900 something So it's possible that we could see closer to three, you know this year But we aren't traveling as much to as many trainings we haven't this year so far And Eric and I have done a lot of things As volunteers for the town So there are plenty of times when we travel and do work when we don't even submit time or mileage Which is again, we'll come back to that So this year we're on track to wage wise Come in around I would say 27,000 would be the cap Now 27,000 or 27,000 That works out to roughly It's 15 hours a week For one lister eight hours a week for another lister and three hours a week for the third lister That third lister typically only works 30 out 30 weeks per year At most And what's in a budget now 14,420 Yep, that's for the budget that started July 1st And that's everything that's mileage in that No it's wages And so I'm going to wrap back for just a second to that point I made a minute ago about volunteerism and town work We have put in a lot of time in the last year and a half, two years since I came on board That hasn't gone on the payroll because we recognize that we want to You know, live in an affordable place and also we want to You know, none of us wants to see any of our taxes go up and that's of course what pays all the bills Right, our tax revenue So with that, we're kind of at a place where we've We're pushing the wall There's not enough going on in our own lives to that push has come to shove and really we need to be paid for the work that we're doing To give you just a quick example of how important our work is I'm going to give you the two numbers for the last two years for the grand list We had more hours in last year than we did before So when I talk years, I'm talking lister years are certainly town fiscal years Right, so July to June But our years really run April 1st to March 31st for our lister work And so our heavy season, if you will, similar to the road crew at times Really is from January through May It's the early part of the year, the first five, six months Something's pushing into June Right, and it has been a heavy load to push I came in in September of 17, originally on your appointment I appreciate that, and then was elected I'm up for re-election this town meeting And in that two years, it came on the heels of the townwide reappraisal And in the two years, much of the work that's been done Has been a lot of cleanup from the townwide reappraisal Certainly we had grievances, even this pasture that ruled in That people were coming in on the heels of reappraisal grievance So they paid their taxes for two years on the assessed value from the reappraisal And didn't even realize that they should have grieved back then But nonetheless, you can grieve any time Well, you can grieve during the grievance period, but you can complain any time Send us a letter, we'll put it in the file Contact you when it's time to have a hearing But there was a lot of cleanup required from that townwide reappraisal The reappraiser did a fairly good job across town But as with all sorts of mass appraisal There's a lot of tweaks and things in the system So the first thing that I got introduced by fire was to go in and clean up the system So the first year and the second year that I've been here A lot of the work that I've been doing has been focused on the Grand List And our what's called our CAMA program Which is where all the specs are for every parcel in town All the buildings, etc But we're talking about this year And we're still working on cleanup from the reappraisal In addition to picking up all of the other things that were responsible for Changes to properties, transfers And changes come in both directions Sometimes there, you know, things are becoming dilapidated And need to be sort of a property assessment Goes down somewhat based on the situation Where people are making improvements And then there's increases in the assessed values But regardless, every parcel that has changed or transferred or permit Is a trigger for us To inspect, make sure that the parcel is accurately assessed And that it's got follow up If in fact it's not complete Which a lot of our parcels in town are sitting at some incomplete percentage That doesn't sound like a lot of work when I go one, two, three But it's a lot of work And there's a lot of towns out there Even towns that are smaller than ours Work every day of the week For many, many years, Middlesex has been blessed With Dick and Eric Who both have worked Wednesday mornings Solidly from nine to noon And then went out and did the assessments in the spring When the fall hit or what not But that was in the days of paper listed cards And less technology back and forth with the state And multiple systems, etc And the reality is that as with everything it's changing And it's changing on the backs of the towns So, I'm looking at my papers and thinking Wow, these fun numbers are probably on the TV So the gist is that we really need to have somebody in the office More often, not just three hours on a Wednesday And that reality is that most often it's been me Who I am here several days a week Multiple hours across the week The times I gave you earlier, the hourly averages 15, 8, and 3 Those are averaged out across the year So there's some weeks where it may be 5 And there's some weeks where it may be 20 And there were a couple of weeks last year During the inspections when he and I both Were in the neighborhood of 30, 40 hour weeks Doing inspections to get it done But they're real numbers And I also and Eric both come from a background Where we don't like to be running in what feels like A shortage situation So we never want to come in way over budget We would much prefer to be realistic about what the budget is And when we realized where we're headed this year And next year We really wanted to bring it to your attention So that the town could plan for it I mean it's going to happen The work is necessary Okay so from the point of view of process Yeah It has been our practice over the years Not to amend our budget during the year And the reason for that is I believe to amend our budget We have to have a ten point vote Okay We can't amend the budget Correct I think what you're saying Is that the voters approve the budget And that was voted in March And we haven't had a situation like this before Certainly we've had Cost overruns Cars have broken down I think I haven't been able to research Whether or not a payroll situation Would change that Well our practice has been That we don't I mean if all of a sudden We need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars On an emergency road repair Probably we would Okay But for something like this We appreciate the information We appreciate your service and your hard work And it is what it is Just like the road crew We have a flood We have to spend a lot more money It is what it is The budget is a plan only And we try and adhere to the budget And we try and do the best job of planning We can do But stuff happens And that certainly sounds like We're going to be on This year's overage Is Dorenda's not aware That that's going to happen We're all aware it's going to happen And do what you have to do And get your job done And we appreciate all the hard work You guys do I mean as you said You're the rain makers Without you we're nothing We can't even turn the lights on Right We'll have it shorted So when he says we don't amend the budget That doesn't mean we're not going to pay you Or that you shouldn't bill I mean I heard that Well I'm sorry I'm saying do what you need to do And we understand that your budget Will be over spent Likely by a pretty good That's the way we've always handled it But as the numbers get bigger Hey listen Communication is everything You know we're looking at those Dorenda's looking at those numbers Every week when she pays the bills We're looking at those numbers When we get financial reports And we pay attention to them So when we know something's going on Then we understand what's causing the difference That's fine And if we have a problem or question We're not sure I will call you up And ask you But you know I'm just saying There are all kinds of things And certainly the road crew expenses Which are a huge percentage of our expenses It's a guess We don't know how many snowstorms we're going to have We don't know how many ice storms, floods Breakdowns, whatever else we're going to have So anyway last year we had a horrible year But we didn't amend the budget So we appreciate the information And you know keep it coming Like if it looks like it's going to change again Up or down Let us know That would be great to know So in terms of next year's budget Then that's a different thing And we're going to incorporate that in our budget process And build it into the budget And so to that end We have given Darinda our number for next year And we just drew a line of 30 And said let's keep it even So we're guessing it's 27 for this year And we also again come from a position Where we'd much rather have overshot And have money left over that didn't get spent If you will Or is it needed to be spent Then to come back and say Oh lord here's where it's headed We just want you to be as close as possible Yeah that's great There's two, a couple of other things I want to make sure that we mention to you While we're here with you Also that relate to this The state, those gurus, PBR Are in the process of Finishing up a contract and choice Of a new grand list Software and provider Which means Ah I saw that Everybody loves new technology Which is partly the reason why we sort of Up the next year Because the software that they're Working on, that we've been working on The grand list software Is 9 on 20 years old And the state owns it It doesn't get maintained very much Very rudimentary It's doing its job, you know, it's fine But the state has decided It's time to get new And so when they do that As with any transition from one system To another The expectation is on every town That all the information we have In our system is perfect Whatever that means Technology wise So that there can be a rollover Into the new, you know, migration Into the new system That's where it can go You know, because those things Never actually happen But maybe, you know, not quite Maybe it will And so we're really focusing on cleaning Up and making sure things are Organized With that, we will also So the date that they're projecting They had originally projected early 2021 So January 2021 They're not thinking that's Going to happen The testing is probably going to Be a little too early So they have An option to extend the current Contract with Nimrick That's the provider for the Grand List And actually the Grand List Software as well as all the Sweets that we use for the rest Of the bookkeeping and in town Office stuff Through 2022 And those are calendar years Those aren't fiscal years So that's helpful to know We're out waiting until the last Minute, so we're proactively Staying on top of it So part of that is The computer Part of it is This will require a significant Learning curve The computer is another issue But it's related Yeah, but you've got to have a proper Computer to run the software Before you do the learning That's all I'm saying Not quite yet, but he's That 30,000 No The 30,000 is anticipating Because again, that's FY 21 It's anticipating the prep work That's going to get us to that migration Point The state You can only project so far Because they don't have their ducks In a row yet They don't even know which provider They're still narrowing it down But once the state narrows it down More and has a more definite On things Then we'll definitely share that With you When I put in this $30,000 number If he's saying this prep work That's going to take place Prior to So those numbers need to be In this budget some place So the state has talked a lot At meetings about support For the learning curve, et cetera So before we Start planning hours Of learning a new software We want to hear first what they're talking about So that we can then Because we're going to be able to see demos Of the new system, et cetera And we're in the list To potentially be testers So we indicated that we would be interested As listers to test the software There were quite a few towns Who offered that So I don't know that we would be chosen But we're close to that We are And we have a really good And we're seeing all different types Of change across town So it's possible they could pick us I don't know But until we have a little more information I wouldn't want to bank that in there That said, it could It could potentially Is it going to be something before January when we have to go to prep With the budget? Before January of 21 20 No, not January 20 January 20 Any of this expense Going to be in The 21 budget Which is what we're asking So the 21 budget is going to run From July of 20 through June of 21 And my answer to that is Probably not And if it does then we won't know For a couple more months But we'll have a clue We're supposed to get updates By the end of the year So as soon as we have information We'll definitely share it with you There's money, you know, guessing And the other thing I'll say Again, Dick's not here But speaking for at least for myself And Eric's here We're pretty efficient With the use of time And we all have different strengths So picking up different aspects Of the software even Or the learning curve if you will The learning curve is going to vary Depending on who it is Or the software, how heuristic it is And it may be that it's easier For one or two of us Then say for the third Or for one versus the other two Kind of thing, we'll just have to see But the balance to that Is the other software that we have Our KAMA software Which is where we pull our Lister cards from And all of the specifics About the property And whatever We will realistically be looking at Investing in a new KAMA system At that time The KAMA system that we have Is also antiquated And is tied into The old Grand List software The same provider company That we have here It's called Microsoft Makes a newer model That we could get as a standalone But the state is only doing The Grand List software And part of where that gets confusing Is there actually two separate systems The KAMA and the Grand List Even though they talk and communicate To each other So they also are expecting To have some potential suggestions To towns to choose from Not every town in Vermont Uses the same KAMA But everybody is mandated To use the same Grand List software The same trouble at Apex too Right So we have a lot of costs But as we get closer We'll be letting you know We've got our ears down to the ground And when we go to meetings And there's vendors We're really looking at the demos To see what makes sense I also heard that there was going To be a potential Substantial increase For NEMRIC support I believe it is Is that due to this That's interesting You haven't heard anything No But would you be getting the information Or would Sarah get it I don't know when we're going to Get that information I don't know just looking on the budget Where that came in Where it comes into But I didn't know if this is What was creating that I don't know All these software pieces Have to work together So obviously there's going to be Costs and setup and training Associated with You're saying you heard That what we currently have Is going to be more expensive So I'm trying to figure out If it's going to be a budget Increase for this coming Budget that we're working on Now based on all these Changes I would have thought you would Get it I mean this is just like Scuttled out among town clerks So nobody's received anything It's just rumors There's just The general consensus is that I don't know what ACS is going to cost us either What's ACS ACS is a recording What we do is record land records But everybody I don't know what the concerns are But we have those rumors That's going to go up too as well It seems like the requirements are just It's a technical thing Everybody wants better This is the puzzle I don't know Everybody wants our money to do the same thing But I'm just wondering After hearing I just wondered If this was the cause of that Driving all of this or whatever I think so They do a lot of different So if we're talking about Nimrack's hourly rate For example like you would call them up As they have a problem not any help That I mean it could be That that's what's going up We haven't heard anything Again anytime we hear anything That's got dollar signs associated We certainly report to you Anything that's interesting Will report to you But day to day It's kind of speculative I haven't seen anything announced You think the league would know? Like you said It's just rumored right now But I wondered if you had heard Anything about it Although the league is really helpful At the town level generally With regard to the Lister work Vela is more the go to It's the association Of the Listerers and Assessors Across the state And Because I don't have enough to do already I said it would be a backup county County rep For the failure Amy or Blutton for Punish Do you work full time? Let's not talk about that right now But respectfully But what that means is It basically means not much But I do have to go to a meeting On the 13th Which I just found out about in Randolph And I will ask this question When I'm there Because that's the Where I'd be able to get some real information So we'll stay tuned On that front I want to hear what Eric has to say He hasn't said a word Eric wants a new computer like yesterday And he's right about it So I'll shut up There was a new computer goes There was some talks That we were going to get a new computer Several years ago And we kind of postponed that I'm pretty sure we brought this Phone because of the re-appraisal We didn't want to change computer systems During the re-appraisal The re-appraisal was three years ago We lost it We kind of really need a computer I thought My memory is that there's money in this year's budget To buy the new list of computers I'm not right, Phil I think you're right I think we were At least the list is No, we're talking about the list But that's where we lost Well, we had heard We had heard from Sarah and Derinda At different points that The listeners and the bookkeeper Are like top of the list So the And both of those Coincidentally, the issues are related The amount of I'm just going to say stuff That come as PDF And reports that are PDF Have enough power to be able to, for example Run the grand list in a PDF format And run all the tax bills They have to be run from Marika's computer So it's some silly kind of Stupid tech things But they're just not They're not They don't have all the current Memory, et cetera We have a desktop And the hope is that The new computer would be a laptop And if need be Then we might be able to invest In an external hard drive I'm sure additional memory or something Because it is helpful To have the information in the field When we're out We do not want a tablet A lot of towns are jazzed up About tablets But really what we need is A simple notebook That we can carry out with us You said you needed a second computer For this new Kama system Is that separate from the one you want now? So the Kama system Actually runs on the It's software Yeah, it's software Right And both computers Would need to have enough power To run the software So the intent would be To have the new one And we're going to need New ones But we would want to keep Retain the one that we have now As a backup So that we can be doing We could both be working at once But the power issue is more from my Your current computer Is a Windows 7 computer I think it is So that's going to die in January Anyone We have no choice We have public trash No, it's going to excel The security is going to go right out the window Because there's going to be no more patches That's the issue So I don't think we can use it at all We can use it as a mode anchor Maybe we need to look for a two for one deal So who orders a computer Well, we've got other technology issues Today And this kind of follows right along with that But I believe now You guys are at the head of the line For at least one if not two Wow And I thought that was this year Which means before June And if it's in this year's budget You should really try and do it Between now and January Because your computer is going to be headed up in January Well, and if that's the case Then we really need it ASAP Because we can't wait until January Given our heavy season So we really need to have it up running And get everything moved from this Exactly Yeah December we start running reports We're discussing computer issues tonight So that would be Yeah You're welcome to stay and listen to it So any other questions that you have for us Because we primarily came to talk to you about money But there is one other thing we kind of wanted to bug you about And I also know that we're over our time Can you be quick Darinda's going to pull your ear about this too If not tonight Which probably not tonight But at some point soon We need to really have a real Heart to heart conversation About the tax bills And the charge The fee The penalty For late homestead filers So people who file their homestead After the April deadline They have up until October 15th to file But you can't file After October 15th After that the state will reject it But for people who file After April Up to the October It makes a lot of extra work And without going into great detail It's a money suck And so For whatever reason Most towns across the state Leave the penalty in place And Darinda can talk to you more about the numbers How much is the penalty We waive it every year 8% of what Of the taxes So it's likely When they first out of the HS122 thing But that was years ago Well then there was some kind of a transition Right? The way they did the HS Because I remember We made a decision to defer the penalty Until everybody got up to speed In the new system But certainly we're there now And it could be Up to 8% Do you want us to do the penalty Up to 8% The town needs it I mean frankly a lot of these hours Are literally it's duplicative And what would the triple word be It's regenerating There are people we send Six tax bills to Especially in middle sex Because the non-residential rate In this town Is lower So is that who's mostly Well wait the homestead Is not available to non-residential No but see by They're sitting Considered to be non-residential Which means they get the lower tax rate Yeah it's the one People do it on purpose Make sure they do Okay so what percent do you think Do that Well most towns go with the 8 No no I'm talking about residents I think how many people We figure out with the dollar amount We amounted to Well I mean what percentage Of the people do not file Their homestead at the right correct time It's actually Well we ran some reports And the bottom line is It's really hard to give you A perfect number first of all It doesn't have to be perfect It just has to be a range And the really honest Straight up answer is It's way more people than you would think And part of it is Because people don't realize You have to file the HS122 It used to be optional Years ago the tax department said If you're a resident and you live here You have to file this form Every year And if somebody doesn't pay taxes They don't file a tax return It never crosses their mind And we have a lot of people Like that in town That wouldn't get a rebate That's why they don't even bother Maybe they don't have income Maybe they don't have Any taxes to pay Because it thinks it's Income taxes When it's not worth it But actually If they file the HS122 And they file their income taxes With no income They actually could wind up Having their taxes paid Through the homestead rebates So those It's a real catch 22 We have at least If they had to pay the penalty once That this problem would take care Of the other side It becomes part of the vote Part of the town meeting The penalty on the HS122 Is not part of the town meeting I thought we did it separately Do you waive it here? Every spring Your philosophy in the past Has been to not do it Before April 15th Because that way Because that way people say Well, if there's no penalty I'll just file as a non-resident Especially if they don't have to pay Whatever So what you have Every year you have waived That penalty on the argument That it is unfair to the taxpayers But that is your decision What you're thinking of is the 8% Penalty that Derrinda can collect That's the warning That's the warning So it's the other one This is the other one We can double check the percentage In a town where the homestead rate Is higher than the non-residential You may impose a penalty of up to 8% The select board may be 8% If it is the vice of If it's reversed The select board may only charge 3% Okay, thank you Okay, so we can go up to 8% You cannot There's no wiggle room in between You have to pick Either one or the other You can't say 5% Because one year you were thinking of doing that Okay, so you have to do the full 8% It's not like a range No And it's actually programmed into the grand list So we can see what we didn't collect By waiving But you don't know how much we've lost In terms of revenue I could give you a quick number That would be a ballpark Just on a handful of cases That we know for sure That's all the big ones Well, I agree with that I mean, our idea of waiving it Was to get people used to the new system When the transition happened The transition, actually It was only two years Where the state didn't So it sort of goes to A little bit longer conversation Which I will not shell Before we launched The grand list this year Sarah helped me With her entire grand list To make sure that we had People listed as residents Or not So that we could notify the state Of who was not Who is a resident But is not filing the HS122 In most towns It's the other way around People claim homestead So they can get the rebate And they don't really live there But in our town And something like 60 others At the grand list You guys had just finished The checklist You just cleaned up the checklist We came up with a list Of 43 property owners In town Who we were 100% Of sure lived here Year round And we notified the state That we were flipping those people Manually Which it was a bit of a act Of civil disobedience And so The agreement was We would leave it until the end of the year And anyone who hasn't filed the HS122 By the end of the year We have to flip them back to non-res This is agreement with the tax department But in the meantime It gave us an opportunity to see Who responded and who didn't When they got their tax bills Because what happens is People who do expect The rebates, the pre-bates Are going to be like, wait a minute I don't know, $10,000 I always pay six Or five And what happened So we've had quite a few people Who realize that And have changed it over But it's from that list And I'm going to give you the number Roughly the penalty number So the penalty number is Over $6,000 So if On those We've recouped about $6,700 Which is A good portion of the increase In Lister's wages That's what we thought And it has since come to light That in addition to these 43 So to answer your question Mary There have been quite a few other people Who have been late homestead filers That we didn't catch In our checklist And resident, resident, no The scrub we did And so there are other people Probably about 15 Tax will be higher maybe Only if they were eligible for the rebate So the non-resident is lower The non-residential rate is lower Here in town Right, so they're filing non-resident Right, and if they file non-resident And they're doing it on the basis That they don't know Or they don't expect tax They are missing out potentially On getting that rebate Through the homestead But if otherwise we do know That there are pretty solid folks Who regularly claim Because they wouldn't get a rebate In the first place Non-resident to get the lower rate Right, so my question is Wouldn't, I mean What is the difference between What they are paying now And what they would be paying Well, I mean it's the difference Between the residential And the non-residential rate It depends on the person Yeah, it could be thousands of dollars there too Absolutely, yeah Yep, that's right I mean my guess is that there's probably I mean you would know this That you could probably tell That the people who are doing it That have no income are probably Older people who just Not necessarily, you'd be surprised So it's not the retired people Living on like social security only No, it's your average range across Can I just clarify something for the minutes So when you're saying that the penalty is Over 6,000, you've assessed 8% On the taxes So the grand list actually calculates Automatically, and then it gets Waved in our system We can see what was waived And what would have been waived Is just shy of 6700 And that's just with the 43 And then there are 15 additional Right, there were 15 others So I want to make one For verification here So our grand list value is Our grand list value That doesn't change Where this is a really key point In our town is one of equity Because when you have people Who should be paying A residential rate It affects all of the others Who are residents in town And our rates go up What we pay in then is higher So it's really a neighbor to neighbor Unfairness issue And so the penalty is Actual revenues that would come in But if they get collected But the idea of Does it mean more money in the pot overall? No, it's just a more balanced Right pot I'm sorry We're done, that was it What would be really healthy for me And it sounds like we're going to be Getting together again I have asked and asked and asked The state and the league of cities And towns to explain to me Why our rates have flip flopped And I can't get a straight answer From any of them We've got an explanation We've got an explanation on it Did it make sense to you? Well, whether it made sense I mean that's what I'm saying They tell me what it is But how do we fix it? It's their calculation There's nothing to do with that We can't fix it It has to do with the few people That are in the Perth spending And how much above the Perth people Spending you are And it's your school budget I love it when they say It's just in the formula We can't change it And you can't do anything about it We can amend the school financing Or do something It is worth noting that It is absolutely tied to It is not the municipal side Our municipal side This is one of the lowest towns in our area We've done, I mean you guys have done well And there are more expenses on the table So our budgets are going to have to go up Eventually But in the meantime From our municipal side It's a pretty affordable place to live And Policiness also Has a lot to do with driving The time that we had to put in here up This isn't assessing work This is extra work For the state Thank you for doing that Because I know we've talked about this We have to There's a big controversy across the state As to whether or not the list is going to be The HS-122 police For the state or not And basically it looks like we are By default Well thanks guys Thanks for all your hard work Can I ask if we put Paul Yes As long as everybody agrees Is that okay with that? Well and also aren't you on the floor For the next one You did just order pizza? No if you do We're cool So you're on Congratulations Yes Great news We have a grant writing road commission New career for you See what I was going to say is now The problem is you're expected to do that Well I always do To get them That's always the catch Let's just go over the town garage stuff quickly The DeWolf Did everybody get a chance to read that I think everybody did okay Good man you read it as well And I have not had a chance to follow up with Nicole I still owe her a phone call But as we all know the gist of it is basically that We would not be able to put insulation in the garage To hold snow sufficiently So that They did say structurally it's fine And we knew that anyway It's just a bummer that Structurally it's fine as long as we have a heat loss Correct As long as we keep reading the snow As long as there's no way we are It was the same issue And I can't remember which improvement It was at the school But I think it was the one before the last one Where they were adding insulation to the school And they had to put additional structure in the roof Because the roof was designed to melt the snow Right I remember that So that's where we're at with that Now just to be clear though We could correct that by adding additional structure You could It might be more expensive than building in a building But we could build it I mean like putting in extra beams Correct And the problem is it will only make the building smaller inside Is there an attic? No, it's open It's open Sure I wish that It all relates to holding capacity But the building structurally Good in good shape So other than that Going over the five year road plan I just had a chance to look at it Steve and I have altered The first Basically this coming season And then the following And then thereafter Kind of reflects what's already listed And all we've done is Basically just update it To the delays and setbacks That we've kind of endured This past season And more or less Restructuring The worst roads We'll get that attention the soonest When does full service mean Versus service work So that There we go Just a little break down That we always put in the town book And this may not be finalized As of yet As Steve and I go through And work on our budget We may be trying to May propose some things About what we might try next year To kind of get us back up to snuff Where we'd really like to be We're just at the point with all the damage we've had We're falling behind so far that It'll only progressively get worse As far as, you know, damage And the infrastructure And things like that So I won't get into that tonight Just because we need factual numbers To help back that up But any questions I'll take them in that regard Are you going to do any special projects Like you did for the three worst months Areas We will They'll be smaller just budget wise What we're running into Because of the way the state is requiring Just this heightened amount of You know, water runoff It's costing us a lot more To do the same work That we've done Just because they've raised the level Of, I'd call it quality control Of what they're expecting us to do So is that why you went around And did all that cutting No, that's more for safety And sight lines, brush I mean, we've had complaint There's no happy medium They complain about the brush Then we complain that we're cutting You know, it's a double edged sword At the end of the day It really, really is So we were able to capitalize on that This last time But in regards to, you know What it's costing us Just like McCulloch Road It's a steep road They're requiring anything over 7% to be stone lined Completely I mean, that's 85% of McCulloch Road Stone lined meaning the ditches The ditches And it's time consuming It's not only expensive The hydroceder has been phenomenal That we bought That has saved us a lot of time What's our hydroceder? We go through a hydro seed Actually broadcast seed Using water With mulch and everything One step by hand And it works And it germinates quickly So that's been a huge improvement That's helped us out a lot But again, the stone lining So we'll be back up The next meeting To go over our budget And we'll have more in-depth detail Of what we'd like to propose To see for this next meeting I'm sorry, you said it was a grade of road Like a percentage of slope That requires that So that's why I've seen this Everywhere in Colorado I've seen it everywhere But if it's less than 7% You only have to do it like every 20 Or 20 times And then anything below the 5% Or 3% Then it can just be grass They've got requirements And then the type of rock Based on the slope percentage And all of that That's all part of this water quality But is it also helping with These massive storms? Is it actually It's not helping with the massive storms Because no matter what No matter what You're going to get Our infrastructure is not built to handle Three inches of water overnight Nothing is What it is helping Is the more frequent Smaller storms Medium-sized storms It is helping with that But it's on the cost of us It's trickled down We're doing the same amount of work Just less output That's the problem And it's costly And it is It's kind of like what we just heard The workload remains So just going back to this I have a question I understand about the roof Probably going to be prohibitive For what we would gain By adding insulation to the roof We can gain something By adding insulation to the walls I don't know how much I asked her She said we don't even focus on that Because if you don't All that heat essentially rises So all you're doing is pushing up Because I did ask I said what about the walls She's like well it's All you're doing is pushing The heat higher quicker How about a fan We've got There we go How about a fan? Let's sing it back I'm sorry Just one other question So what is the heating system In there now? Two Modine heaters It's just a It's a ceiling mounted Propane burner Flames come up Heat exchangers And a fan blows the heat out But you never get it to go down It's already starting high Well they Push it down This is to keep you guys warm That's to keep the shop warm That's the shop warm That's the shop warm I'm just wondering If you guys are working in there We don't shop at the people Yeah I mean we set it at 60 If you set it more than 65 You can't work in there It's wintertime So it becomes hot But there's a lot of humidity You bring the trucks in That are 10 degrees And they sweat all night I mean the Perlins drip That's part of it So how old are those How old are those Modines? I don't know that There used to be oil I've been told And there was waste oil Burning Furnaces at one point These were here Since I've been here In O9 I don't know that Waste oil? That's bad Well it isn't it isn't They've improved the They've improved the Waste oil It's only using it For the firing purposes You know it's not It's not injecting them But my question is At some point To have somebody come in And look at those Because they have made Major efficiency improvements In all those things And the other thing That I've seen in a lot of Commercial garages Is Air to air Heat exchangers to blow All that moisture out Recapture Recapture the air I've only seen it on New stuff I don't know about Retrofitting on a building That's not I don't know I don't know either But I'm just saying There's a couple of things Where maybe we could Approve our energy situation And also just The habitability Of the building Right Yeah So Alright I'm sorry I mean at least we know That part And that was the big part Of our discussion With the building fund Basically You know Is it even feasible Which basically it is not Yeah You know So we go from there But that's definitely A later discussion But we'll be back Next meeting To talk about budget stuff Okay So hopefully Who's giving us the good news On the trucks? Oh my god Don't even go there He's got kids He's got to go Yeah I've got to go This one dinner time Six o'clock They've been here For an hour Those poor kids Alright We know who's Gonna give us We know who's Gonna give us When we go there I'm happy to be here Oh So We've had We've We're in the middle Of some pretty Pretty bad truck troubles One of the trucks Is gonna need A motor indefinitely Steve has been dealing With them In regards to time And cost And things like that We don't have a definite cost But we've been told In the ballpark Of 40 to 50,000 Well The new motor is 51,000 So That's that And it's gonna be installed So there goes The next grant we've got That's the 2014 Westerns Westerns Is this the 10 wheeler? One of them One of them This is the one that Just had the transmission I don't know Yeah Right So Just Again Just quickly by Paul Still here So Paul and Steve Are trying to look At all options We're ending that truck At great expense Now we're putting in A new engine At great expense For a truck That we're gonna use For two more years That's our plan The question I asked Is it makes sense to say Because what's gonna Happen next Is gonna be the transmission There's actually a Backward We already have a Transmission I'm sorry That's okay Regardless Anyway There's more That can go wrong With that truck So We're just trying to look You know Could we possibly Get a Get a good used motor And put it in their engine Who the hell knows But just Just a heads up We had We had a few days of glory Where we Where we got that grant Which was glorious But It looks like We're gonna spend it Or spend a good time I couldn't hear about All of that on email And then we don't hear About this bad news Until we get here Well a bad news is Recent Well that's very recent That's just I mean a lot of it is Happening daily We just got most of this Today And the scary And the scary part is Of course Snow was scheduled for Thursday And our One of our other trucks Is up there for warranty Work So we have one Truck on the pickup On the moment In that regard I did Demand that one of The used trucks That have been Traded in up there Be full of fuel Tomorrow And ready to come Down here To be put in the service I told them It was unacceptable With the time it took us To get it looked at And where we're down So If there's any salvi You know Any It's been there for Five weeks If there's any Severing business going Forward There needs to be A truck available Who are we dealing with? Charlie boys Charlie boys What are Charlie boys I've shared a block Yeah Charlie boys Made them correct They've always Kind of reputable But Steve and I have talked It just seems like They've They've gotten the Point to the point With towns that They're Soaking the full The full boat to towns There's just like I mean They're not getting The service either And we're not Getting the service Which was normally Never the case That we seem to Have been High priority And it's Something's wrong But anyway I'm Looking into that Some Like I talked Right down there At grand field Last year We replaced An engine And Our freight liner And it was Like 31 grand So that's I was Kind of expecting Maybe 35 But That's A big difference Big difference Anyway I think I like that idea Of a used one You know If we Get up No Don't think so I'm worried about How liquid it is Yes It's children I didn't realize That kids were here That's what I was saying We're all side Yeah So anyways We'll see you guys Next meeting And I Promise to bring Not Nearly Good news anyway So So where's your third one? I believe with Her grandmother I'm hoping I'm hoping With her Pushing in your chair I really appreciate it And now we're supposed to do It is You are You're a good boy Wow These kids are getting really good All right guys Have a good night Thank you Thanks Paul All these All these All these Suddenly Suddenly You have to get Mr. Take a deep breath In shock He's still in shock Yeah The Let's see I maybe Step back So Peter And I met With a couple of representatives From tech group Who are located up in South Burlington And They had Dropped off some Materials to Sarah And I Ended up having A conversation With them I think More or less Motivated By Us Continuing to Think about The support that We get And how much It costs From RB Technologies And Whether or not That was the best Way for us To continue To go Now We had A good meeting This guy David Who Actually Is the director Of Cloud Computing Services Was the one Who really Did Yeah Most The presentation And Answered our Questions And He Seemed good He seemed Really knowledgeable They Work with A lot of Towns So Really kind of A little bit Of a different Business model They're Familiar with NEMRIC Which of course Is important to us So Again We had some Conversation With them And we did ask Them to give us a Price This is their Security Network Assessment Which May in fact Be kind of redundant Because I Have a feeling I don't know That our Network And security Are good I think That's something That R.B. is Good at But we don't know You know We're basically Taking Yeah The other thing Was I Felt We wanted to Kind of See what This company Does How responsive What kind Of information We get back From them To see if it's Worth A more holistic Kind of Approach Much like we have With R.B. I thought What's interesting Is Given the opportunity Most companies Would go Oh, we can do it All for you And really They didn't jump To that They were like We can I mean You know If you're happy With certain aspects Of R.B. Tech That's good I mean We can Jump in And fill This is probably Not a bad price I suspect That You know Doing this kind Of assessment work With R.B. Would be Certainly more Expensive But you know It's hard to It's hard to gauge Anyway That's You know Where we're at It just seems Like this year And I think This comes down To now You know The timing And hearing From the Listers Any year Looking at Cost Whether or not It's the right time For us to do Something like this Can you get Recommendations from People that they work with? I haven't Yeah I could I mean My only fear is And this happens with Any time you get A quote for something When you take The lower one There's always Some sort of Like Oh We weren't anticipating This And so You know We don't even know What our So the other issue Which isn't really In this But was certainly part Of our discussion Was the email Solution Yeah As you'll recall Our B Is proposed What sounded to Fill an I Like an unbelievably Expensive Email system And we've been Fliverflabbering Around with that For about Six months Trying to figure Out what to do These guys Have some very Clear and defined For a lot less money But that's not That really is No That isn't included In this But if we're Going to do this I want to make sure That in this Is an analysis Of our email And a recommendation Of how to Implement So what are they Actually really doing here Assessing our Network and security Yes And does this Have to be them No No This is something Because we don't Know What our B Is We for instance Could say to them What we're interested In you guys Doing As a first Go at this Is Setting up our Email system And getting That up and running And when I was thinking about This I had not seen This until tonight But you know Two thousand Dollars There's the cost Of a damn good Lister's computer Maybe two of Them I don't Think we're In bed To keep an eye In the security Stuff and that's Okay We've had some issues With the billing But you know My real thing Now is That A We need to Make a decision On the Lister's computer And implement that And it sounds like We need to do it In the next Get it in here In the next Thirty days And B Get Our email Up and running So we have Town email And we're no longer Using our personal Read this I love these guys When they send you this Stuff Base time Base One-time baseline Vulnerability scan Review Cloud application Email data I mean A lot of that I don't even know What that means Yeah me I'll have my husband Look at it He'll tell us Yeah Yeah Great idea But I don't Doubt that it takes A lot of time to do This And I don't doubt That it's worth Two thousand dollars More urgent Needs Which I think The answer is we do Yeah I mean Especially now After hearing the truck Thing And on top of the list Or so it's like You're going Holy Forget it Where do you want To spend the money You know So what do we think We don't want to Spend the money But we got it What do we think Our budget increase Is going to be this year Ten percent Forget about two percent Anyway Yeah I guess My suggestion would be To ask them For a recommendation To solve our email problem As a way to start This process Okay Because that's an urgent need And then the question is And then not worrying About this At the time being Yeah At the time being And then And then Probably I guess Go to RB For the Lister's computer I don't know Well I don't know We need to We need to make a decision So we got him These guys Like Dell I remember him saying And I have For years I've had You know Business account With Dell Where I can go in And inspect stuff So you know We don't have to rely On necessarily somebody else I mean You know I can do that We can inspect the computer We want a business Not just odd But probably two Business class computers Right And we want You know All the current software And as she said It's got to have a lot of memory It's got to have a lot Of hard drive space So You know I can look at some of that stuff And inspect it out And we can decide You know And do that ourselves Without others Do you think Dell Is what we should be getting? Probably Yeah I'm fine with Dell I've always You know Like that We put a lot of it In schools You know The service has been there But if we So We buy the computer from Dell Who does all the Transfer the software What's up these guys Let's see Let's try Try them out with something Okay Okay I'm fine with that So did you guys Make a decision on that You said you wanted Get them to install The Lister's computers Is that what you just said Yeah So What I was trying to Look while I was listening To something else What do we have in this And also we want to Get an estimate from them What do we cost To set up the emails Yeah For computer maintenance As a budgeted item Really We didn't We didn't do any hardware Oh For the Lister's No Not even for the Lister's For that For anything No maintenance We put it under just Computer maintenance Probably If that covers Everything So we would ask What do we have there For an estimate Of putting in Lister's computers As you're saying Ask them He's gonna do the specs And then we're Gonna You're gonna have them I'll do the specs You do the specs Dell's port I'll see what it's gonna cost And then And then we'll get them And then get And they'll do the Installations And transfer the data We're gonna spend all that You're gonna spend all that So we're gonna get An estimate of that Okay We're gonna get an Estimate on that For that scenario Can I just ask One of the things That when I was talking To Amy earlier I think And I might have been Out there when And talked further About the computers But she said One computer And then they were Gonna keep their old one And use it as a She can't Because it's gonna be She can't Okay Well he says It's gonna Not work Windows 7 Windows 7 So you can't Well it's no support It'll work But there's no Security It's just Real vulnerable And I think It's not worth For us to So Not to throw a wrench And then with The accounting computer Do we know where That one sits? Patties? Probably needs To be replaced too Yeah I mean That's working I don't know what That laptop is But it says on it Or not Or you can But that's You know That's gonna be The issue with the Listers It's a Windows 7 Think pad So I don't know How old That is Got issues all the way Yeah Yeah we do We knew we were running Up against this wall So you're not really Talking to computers Probably talking to Three For the Possibly No No For the This accounting computer If it's No good But the Listers needed Two computers Yeah Well they Well they said They could do one And then the second One is They kind of Want something for Their cams Cost these days 1500 bucks Not even Not even Well depending on What you got Yeah 9 to 12 Well yeah Anywhere in that range Probably depending on How much memory How much Hard drive space Hard drive space Cheap memory Cheap memory She wanted One that was Portable with An external drive So she had more Capacity That's What she said Yeah Although if we Can get it built in It's Another thing Right Hanging Yeah But you know It won't take me Long I'll I'll take a look Within the next couple of days Maybe just Well it sounds to me like We need to get this In the oryx ASAP I think so Yeah From what she's saying Yeah I didn't realize the timelines With the changeover With the state And You know With those systems That they're on Yeah All that I hadn't heard Of any of that So what's What's your You have a time computer too Right I have the laptop Which again is Which one did you Did you look at Neither did you look at Paddy's Oh This one that's open Is the one That belongs to the town This is This is my portable One that I bring back Me too This is So this is also A What is fast I know This has been A weird day When you spend When you're 7.32 2 o'clock That's not for you It's I'm not tired I had to get it Dorinda's is a 7.10 Do you I don't know If it's necessary I mean Well One of the things That the guys From tech Group said to us Is that In some cases Depending upon What you're running For applications They can install Windows 10 And I think What they're doing Is not like a full install It's a stripped down Install You know To make the machine Last a little longer The question is How much longer You're paying for the license As opposed to If you buy a new computer It's there It's installed Right You know There's no labor It's a matter of Stripping off all the junk Although the business Great machines Don't usually have All the Crunch The most I really use this Now Because Originally I was calling Dialing in to it It was screwing up Her system When she came in After I did that So I stopped doing that So Basically all I'm using that Laptop for right now Is like When I'm working on Budget stuff Or something like that I have Because I have My Own computer at home Set up with the Treasurer's email On it So I don't Usually have This one Up and running Unless You know With the trouble With the problem is Again Getting the security stuff Well That's what I'm saying If we don't need this You know Then Or if she just Doesn't get on Like when she's here If she doesn't get on The network Then There's no vulnerability At least until We get to the point Where we can replace That one Well As your personal computer Does that go With the network No I don't connect You're talking about $900 Result of We need to have Four computers I'm serious What get the Listers And the Bookkeeper share One computer Because they're going to Take it on site too Well How are they going to Get two computers They don't need to Take both on site Let's find out How much they are Let me do A little If they're Really that Inexpensive I think we're Bickering about Something That Would not Be that Much money We're talking $5,000 for Four computers That's so horrible It doesn't Need to be a laptop No That could be a And Desktops are cheaper Than laptops It actually shouldn't Be a laptop Probably shouldn't It shouldn't be I agree But she's got An external Monitor She's got An external Keyboard Which could be Used then For the Listers Laptop And the Second computer That could be They could have A desktop And a laptop And they said I don't think They need quite as much Capacity for their Second For the second No Doesn't sound Like it And if you wanted To hold off A year on Getting Another laptop For Like Me Or whatever I don't think Like I can Work off Of what We've got You know I would just Don't have Any security issues So we really Don't I only use The first Red sheets And things like that When I'm doing the Budget Which is all Manually entered Okay So And Dell Doesn't Dell Have some municipal Program Discount Program I believe they do Yeah I believe they do Yeah Because they've Always had one For schools I think they have Very, very good Warranty service You know To the point Where if Something goes You call them up And they will Overnight A new computer To you And you send The other one back And they fix it You know So they They tend to be built Fairly well But then again If we Start dealing With these guys Or RV We've got support Fairly close At hand Thank goodness We have you Getting a proposal For the email Their best And I don't Want to have a lot Of meetings Just give us your best Recommendation That's going to meet Our needs And Yeah Yeah Okay I'll talk to Right Moving on But yeah Have a look At that And see What he thinks Move approval No No No No No No I was Sorry Mary So I hope everybody Had an opportunity To review this Peter I still can't find I hope it gets Right I still can't find Where you are referring Get to the long-term Death page Yeah That's what I was What are you guys talking about? We're talking about the audit Which I did not bring My copy If you have a copy here So This one was 29 This one's 23 I took the credit out Yeah But see it says 23 Right there Oh, I'm looking over here See they're 223 So I think they just Copied the number And asked the wrong number I was looking in these columns No, I'm sorry I didn't explain it I didn't explain it well enough But I just thought It doesn't make sense That that number Is the same as that number Yeah No, it should be the 29 That's the only thing Like I spent Quite a bit of time I'm going That's the only Foolish little thing I found Well thank God Because I can't remember a thing When I looked at it So anyways So Do I have a approval On this if we want Yeah You know what we have is Warned it As much as I could You know what I said Warned it On my live You did not Warned it And now Like I said That's the way I went through Yeah It can wait till next I do have action possible Under Treasurer's Report No You need Ackon possible It's action possible It's action possible Amendment agenda Well it's pretty late to Amendment It's nothing that isn't It's just that we're supposed to do. Is this Bonnie? Bonnie she's willing to come in last year you guys didn't want her to come in but she's willing to come in if you want to come in but I mean if we have time I would love to have her come in just because I get and I'm pretty good with numbers I mean I get the basics of all this stuff but I get lost in the weeds. Me too. I mean I'm just I'm just telling you I look at the fun balances at the end I look about how much money we had how much money we spent I don't know if we need to maybe we just don't need to pay any attention to any of that stuff but all those reconciliation of all those different things I look at I mean I don't understand most of it either. What is it that you don't understand maybe I can answer the question and no questions are being asked so because we don't understand it enough to ask the question. Here's what I would recommend here's what I would recommend let's do this let's not have her come but let's allocate some time in our busy agenda to talk to you about the audit and you're probably right you can probably answer all that. Well I'll but I mean if you I'm not trying to talk her out of coming with more than happy to have her come but it's like I asked if there was questions and I got no response either. The only now we're sitting here trying to approve. I just since since all the changes and we're about to have another year where they're changing all the rules and the formats and everything you know I've been a little lost in the way they present these financial statements and the different exhibits. So do you want to discuss with her how this could be changed? Yeah I don't think it can be changed I think that's I think it is what it is. I just I really want to understand it I think it's important. I totally agree. So let's try this. I find yourself made on the presentation sometimes when you hear people talking about things and they go to a specific exhibit or a graph then you have the questions. When you're reading it you can't even fathom what to ask. Mary here's what here's what I would recommend. Okay we have a financial expert here. No you don't have a financial expert. Yes we do. As far as I'm concerned you're our expert. I think Darinda can probably go a long way towards answering any of my questions. So what I'm suggesting is we go through the thing quickly page by page. It won't take us that long half an hour 45 minutes and see if that satisfies us all. If it doesn't we can always have Bonnie tonight. I don't want to. No not tonight. No not tonight. I don't want you to prove this without me being able to answer the question. Well let's put Bonnie in here then. Why don't we do it at the next meeting? I just want to say one thing about having Bonnie in here. I've listened to a lot of accountants come in and present. And they do it Zim Zim bum in about 20 minutes. They say you know here are the key here are the key pay blah blah blah. I can understand those pages. That's not what I'm looking for. Well maybe maybe Darinda can be the one to explain. Well I would tell you I thought Bonnie did not give us good a presentation as Billy Yacoboni did. She was like 50 percent. But I thought part of our reason for not having her last year is we didn't think her presentation was great the previous year and we didn't get a lot out of it. Right. I mean you know you know it's to me it's here's what we budgeted here's what we spent here's the taxes we raised here's the taxes we expected to raise here's where our fund balance was at the beginning of the year here's where it is the end of the year. This is where our fund balances are. I could see that in that report. Yeah. So and then the only other thing that I always look for are there any material weaknesses. Right. Correct. And she found no weaknesses. No. The only thing we asked her to change was one verbiage here about and it hasn't been changed because it was how she stated a statement about the fund balance that it says of this amount that we had a general fund balance of eighty six thousand three hundred and twelve dollars surplus. We're asking her to remove the word surplus because we don't want to perceive that we actually had a surplus at the end of the year because we actually had a loss. Right.  Yeah. I would say. We've asked them her to do but and I will ask her now to review that. I just couldn't find it on there what you were referring to. I'm sorry. I didn't explain it very well. And so but that was the only thing we could find in it. But like you said, without any she found no problems. Yeah. No. If there's no weaknesses then you're doing what you're supposed to do. As far as I'm concerned, that's why you have it on. That's why we don't have to be out of this. No, that's why. Yeah, so. Okay. So I don't have any other questions. I'm good. I'm good. I think we should do it on the 19th and I don't care if we do it with Bonnie or with Dorinda so we can save some money if we do it with Dorinda. She probably is not charging us any more. I don't think she's part of your it's a flat fee to do your audit. So do you want it to come and I don't know if she's gonna be available in the 19th. I say I say we try it with Dorinda first and if everybody's happy. Yeah, we go for it. And if we need Bonnie, she can come. I just got a raise of hands of who needs printed copies mailed to them. There's a PDF. Yes. What are you going to do? You're going to read it on the computer. I don't need a copy. I just don't like to read stuff on the computer. I don't want to ruin my neck and shoulders. Yeah, it does get hurt. I mean, it's too long. I don't like reading like this. I want to read. And there's a lot of boilerplate in these things. Yeah, I know. But that's it. There's a lot of verbiage even. It's just verbiage. Right. If you ask me what some of this verbiage means, I'm not going to be able to tell you. No, it isn't. It's understanding some of those charts and how they relate to the other. Yeah. That's where I get a little lost. But anyway, so are we going to accept the audit tonight or not? I said we accept it. Yeah. Will someone make that motion? I'll move. Sir, a second. Second. All in favor? Aye. Opposed? I'm not opposed. Did you vote me? I voted aye. I just had my hand up my nose. I didn't know if you were going up the chimney or what you were doing. I thought if I did that, it would straighten it. So you guys voted to accept the audit but the next meeting you would like to go over it with Derrinda. Yes. No action. Just review. Break up. Is that your report? That's my report. Yeah. Hopefully we'll have some more financials for the next meeting too. I mean, the good news is that that's exactly what we expected to. We're no surprises in that. That was the whole thing. That's why I thought it was. Yeah. I move approval. October 15th. Second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. I'm staying. Somebody was reviewing approval of select board letter to Vermont Secretary of Human Services. Didn't we already do that? No. We talked about it. We just agreed to hold. I thought we approved the letter but we. No. Okay. All right. Here. Could you hear you want to pass this round or somebody signed it minutes. So you just you've prayed that they've prayed the concept of the letter but you didn't approve the letter itself. Got it. So if you I have to go take care of a voter, so I'll be right back. I think it's well written. It's interesting. No, I didn't hear anyone come in. I'm going. I'll tell you sometimes old days are blessed. I can't hear anything. What? What? What'd you say? I thought it was fine. Yeah, I move approval. Oh, I got it. I got it. I got it. Don't give me your cup. More paper. I like it. Yeah. Send it. Okay. Good letter. Did you write it? I wrote it all by myself. Did we need to move it or not? We just. Well you. I love it. The state's only mass murderer. It's like hit him between the eyes. All right. Brutal. I'm at the second draft version of the novel. Just add this to your novel. Okay, now what? You have correspondently TJ Donovan. The only other thing I would say is, is it, we only ask that we be kept apprised of the steps to relocate it. But don't we want to ask him not to put dangerous people in there anymore? I'm just saying. So you guys, you guys got the letter yesterday from TJ Donovan. Where'd you get that $285? I just went on the, they have a little link. $280 that we'd get. How much? $280. No, this was like, so if you, if we do the lawsuit and we, or not, whatever it is. If we join this action. If we join this action.  And then you can break it down by town in our time of $280. I'm glad I didn't even bother to go there. I didn't bother. Well, it's the principle of the thing is, we want to be involved. It's the principle of the thing. And, and there are, you know, bigger communities that, yeah, like, have had significant problems that are, well, that's what I was gonna say. Do we know if we have any problem? Well, no, I think it's more about, which was interesting, because I hadn't thought about this. It's more about, like, the taxing of our emergency services on, like, accidents and calls to homes and things like that. That, like, they are responding to more opiate overdose. They have to have training for opiate overdose and all that. And that comes at our expense. Yeah. $280. And I can tell you that our past squad has had to deal with it. Yeah. Have it. Okay. Yeah. Well, so then it should be joined. Yes. So I think we should. Okay. Do you guys want to make a motion on that? Yeah. Yeah, would we join this? We're moving that we join the class. Well, we don't have to, we don't have to do anything to join the class. We're still in our hands. We're in the class. Do we have to opt out of it, or do we? I think we want to opt out. We have to opt out. You have to opt out. So you're automatically opting out. That's the way I read that letter. Yeah, you're in unless we opt out. Yeah, I think you're right. So there's going to list all the towns that are one by one that are in the class? Well, the whole state is in the class. You would just opt out. I got you. Unless you wanted to sue on your own. The reason you would opt out is if you were in the city of Burlington and you had a $5 million bill, you'd want to go on your own. All right. Steve, quick question. You and Paul are going to put together numbers for our next meeting. Yes. Can you get those to Darinda on a draft basis so she can plug them into her spreadsheets and start to look at them? We can do that. Spreadsheet is a whole lot to be done. I know I got that. I didn't even bring my spreadsheet. Sarah, when would you have a town hall? Did I have something on the 15th budget? Yeah. I think it was really about it today. Okay. I mean, I just, I am scared to death. I want to see where we are as quick as possible. Well, there are some numbers we don't have. I know, but we can at least start to get an idea. And the other thing we need to give real thought to is the dreaded raise issue, which is going to come at us like a giant snowball rolling downhill. So the sooner we have preliminary numbers, the more we can at least start to think about where we think we are. So it would be helpful to me to... I can already tell you the health insurance is 12%. Oh, God. It is? We got our, Hickok and Boardman got ours down to 5%. It was going to be 15. What did they go through? I don't know. I think we're still doing the same thing. Do you have any coverage? Yeah, we do. No, but they really, they really went to that for us. It was going to be 15%. You've got published rates, you've got... They're experience rates, they're a large group. And if you self-insure or whatever, we see maybe... Yeah, we're not there. So it's 12%. It's pretty significant. That was a correspondence. I just want to say one really quick thing. So we have a problem with this elevator light. And Middlesex Electric has said they don't understand how it works. Talked to Cindy Badge. You open the outside door and the light would go on. We have found no switch. There is no switch. I called Albie Bourne today and he said, oh, no, that is an elevator. That is a light in an elevator shaft. And that's union work and that's special highly, that's highly specified electricity. Oh, God. Is that true? I just need some help here. Yeah, it probably is true. Elevator, you can't touch an elevator. You know, it's a regular type person. You can't touch anything to do with an elevator. That's what he said. How did you call this Albie? Albie Bourne lives in Middlesex. So how do you find a union worker? So how do I find someone to fix that? Does anybody have an eye clue? Well, they're from an elevator company. I know that they seem to not be. They told me to call the electrician. So I have a question for you. Do we have manual wiring diagram, any information on that elevator? I don't know. I have no idea. Because the wiring in that elevator is not complicated. We had a professional electrician say he can figure it out. Why don't you call Middlesex Electric, get a second opinion, find out how you... There was Albie Bourne. No, I'll be born as Albie Bourne. I called him because Middlesex Electric was like, beat us. Well, wait a second. Is Albie Bourne a union electrician? He doesn't. It's like a special... You can't go into an elevator. You have to be elevator certified. I don't think it's union. I think you have to have a special certification to work on that. But I don't know if that refers to the lighting. Yeah, but it's all built into the electrical part of the elevator. What about Wendell? Wendell's not a union electrician. It's not separate. No, no, no. If the minute you say when you open the door, the light goes on, that means it's tied in to all the relay system and the control system of the elevator. There may be an off switch where you can turn it off. But it's all... I can guarantee you it's all... Because when the elevator runs, that light's supposed to be on. That's right. It's not supposed to be off on with a switch. It's supposed to be on. The New York Electric, call them and they'll call Vermont elevator and see if I can get somebody in there. I would say New York Electric, they're a very large company there. We have to have a repair now. Yeah, they're kind of... It's an ADHD thing. It's an ADHD, yeah, it's an ADA. It's not the lawsuit, frankly. It's a presidential election coming up in less than a year. I know. Well, I have Weight Watchers tomorrow night. That's even worse. Oh, is this the elevator? You should just say it's broken. I leave a little light in there, a little flashlight. It's kind of lantern, a little hanging lantern. You've never seen. I would... How about this? If they can't have you call the state general services and buildings and they must have a person there. That's not an idea. Because they've got a zillion elevators there. Elevators, right. You're going to find somebody. Good idea, Mary. And I would bet that they're using... Probably benign electric or maybe one of the... Let's try benign electric. All right. If none of those work, try that. I will. Thank you very much for your high comment. I was at a loss. Just before we end... For the... When are we meeting again? The 19th. 19th, okay. Just put a quick item on the agenda for me to give you just a little update with what's going on with CV fiber. Okay. And then the other thing... Well, we got one, but there's other stuff. Yeah. We really need to follow up on the fire department issues. Okay. I agree with that. I agree. I have an answer to that. Hi, how are you, Peter? You have an answer to that? I'd also like to ask about what we're doing with our... I'll tell you that I did make some phone calls about that. I've been meaning to bring it up at prior meetings. Can I just quickly say I'm not going to be at the meeting on Tuesday because I'm going to be in Oregon for a week for work. What Tuesday? You mean the 19th meeting? Is that all right? Do we have enough people? I'm going to be here. Okay. We don't want to interrupt your cocktail bar. I know. Wait a second. Three hours earlier. She's still going to be working. She's going to be at a meeting. There won't be any more cocktails here. What part of Oregon? Portland. I've never been. So you guys asked me to deal with consultants. Okay. So I went to the Stowe Town Manager beside us to start with him because they spent $32,000 on a consultant. To get the fire to your department motivated to increase participation and safety and training and all the other things we want our fire department to do. So Stowe, out of that $32,000 the piece of advice they got was appoint a fire member of the fire department to recruit just in charge of recruiting and also hire a full-time chief. They hired a full-time chief for $76,000. Hold on. Don't run that through. But it's still. And they hired? Yeah, but the price is going to be the same no matter if you're a veteran. Is there a volunteer? No. So it's a volunteer fire department with a professional fire chief now for $76,000, which is a lot. That's before you even get to the benefits. That's before benefits and everything. It's $150,000.  Their fire department is kind of like a hybrid like ours and exactly like ours. Yeah, that's right.  So it's a very different which ours is not. But did they have to move from a non-profit?   And this professional fire chief is now responsible to them. But they have 3,160 calls a year. We have on average about 60. You wouldn't hire a professional. You might hire a professional, but it might not be full-time. It might be half-time. It might be third-time. I'd also talk to two other people who are involved in fire consulting or work. They actually got out of the business because it's been so dead. It's a great way of doing that. The company that Stowe used was out of New Hampshire and was called something like Municipal Research, Inc. or something. He said the $32,000 he would not recommend spending $32,000 on this. Especially since there's nothing we can do. Thank you for checking on all this. You told me to. I know, but thank you. It's just they're dry resources. They just aren't that many resources. So then did you talk to any other people that you have? It's just really, really classic. It has a lot to do with the culture of a typical fire department, which is that it can have a kind of quasi-military mode. You come in, you have to prove yourself.  People want to volunteer, but they have limited time and they don't want to go through all this. That's one particular problem. They don't want to volunteer to work on fire departments. They want to do fire stuff. They don't want to recruit. They don't want to do paperwork. They don't want to file a report.  So back to that, you're now back into the exact same situation that you were, which is I have no idea what to do. It's just that the consultant I don't think is going to be the answer for you.  Go to the electorate. I think so. Absolutely would. But how do we have a volunteer fire department logistically? No, I don't mean that. How do we have a non-profit fire department that we have no say over but we give them money and we support their budget? How does that work? We own all the property. That's what you could do. We could lock them out of the fire department. We could then create by vote of the public. Which we're not going to do that. That's just my question. We can't control what's going to happen. From talking to about two or three people who are involved in this, including a guy who does fire inspections for VLCT, that was that guy. He actually came to the office. You know when you have a small fire department it all hinges on one or two personalities. So it's a hard thing to just kind of you just can't if you get one or two personalities there are some places that have a dynamic fire chief and everybody falls in line. They have fundraisers and a lot of dinners. I think out in Plainfield or Marshfield on McLean, in Marshfield for years people just adored him. Right. And there are firefighters chiefs around here, people adored. Just that is the difference. But I think that there's also a feeling of us versus them in terms of select board versus the fire department. I think they feel like they are attacked every time. They're always on the defensive. So I'm wondering if there's some sort of relationship building we can do with them at the very least that might be like hey we were thinking of doing something like a pancake breakfast or they'll say oh we can't do coin drops because blah blah blah it's too dangerous. Let's think of what we can do to like show some sort of give the town a different image By the way the coin drop thing I think is a bad issue because tongue bridge does it both ways we rode to the tongue bridge fair and they always get permission from the state. Right, route 110. Whatever. I'm just saying we can't do it on the way down to the valley not just people who are going to Waterbury which is what they always allege but that's one issue. So if we're not going to hire a consultant which totally makes sense what are the things that we can do that can help improve the image and let people see that the fire department might be something that they're interested in participating in. We have to get the right person slash people and unfortunately I think what we have to do is support hiring a chief slash administrative person who will do the paperwork do the bullshit, be responsible for recruiting and earn a real salary. If you do that when they're a non-profit we'd have to turn them into a municipality I think there's a municipal fire department I think there's a couple of ways I think there is too I mean one of them would be to simply go to them and ask her to sit down and say we would very much like to establish a municipal fire department and we'd like you to willingly give up your 501C3 and we'll proceed with the reaction to that might just be no which doesn't mean we still can't make that move to have a municipal fire department and again looking at this part-time chief, administrative piece I think is possible but I just made a note to myself to go back and look at that how you established the municipal and it could be maybe we're able to do it but you know what what we don't want to do is have it be because we this isn't a threat we want it to be something where we're working together because what we don't want to have happen is everyone says well no we don't want to be a part of this anymore I think we've been trying to work with them for a long time I also think there's no but are we willing to risk everyone quitting as far as I don't think any resident in town in a small report they get once a year in the annual report they know what they do and what they don't do down there and also the people who get harassed every week when they go to the concerts because that's the only thing they do for fundraising they harass you to buy tickets I wouldn't call it harassing this looks like he's mingling up there it looks like he's having I'm not so sure but it's usually several people 50-50 I don't think that's bad all I'm suggesting is I don't think we're going to get a lot of outside help on this I think we're going to have to figure this out ourselves and one of the things as an interim step I was thinking about and this is the time to do it is say look we want to increase your budget by $25,000 I don't know $30,000 to hire a part-time administrative person to take the burden of all that stuff off of the volunteers and the second duty of that person is going to be to actively recruit new members and organize the training and make sure they get it and I don't know I know that at some point you encouraged the fire department to hire like a secretary and administrative assistant there's no money in their budget to do with them Sarah we allocated some small amount of money in their budget to do it so let's say it's a 10 hour a week person a 25% a 25% person what's that going to cost $15,000 well you get somebody with real experience you've got to be somebody wait a second what if we end up with one of the people who's there we are hiring the person so they can be part of it absolutely be part of it but if they come to us if all of a sudden our employee that's going to work for a volunteer organization can we impose that? no it's going to work for the town it's a volunteer organization all I'm saying is if I was down at that fire department and the town came to me and said look we want to make things better for you we're not trying to take over control we are trying to make things better for you and the way we're going to do that is we are going to support an administrative person who's going to be a town employee part-time town employee what if we specify that all the money we had this new person had to be decided by the new person that we're just a town employee in other words we give them thirty thousand dollars and if we're going to have this person who's going to be doing this I think that's where you step in the uncharted waters I mean ultimately we approve all the money anyway I'm just trying to think of a way to act like we're trying to help them without imposing our will on them and abolishing their little boys club down there right but it gets harder and harder to respond to a citizen by saying well they're their own entity there's nothing we can do about that I think Peter I think you're going to run into some legal issues here I think you've got a non-profit organization and if you hire an employee a town employee who is to work for it it's like having a higher ground where you work for the Boy Scouts that doesn't you might be better to actually bite the bullet and say we want to form a municipal fire department then you can hire them whatever you want to hire the question is what's their which is the fire and remember we had the we gave them about thirty five thousand dollars plus the debt and that's about I think it's about a hundred and sixty five thousand a year and when you look at the debt service when you look at the history of the fire department it's a typical Vermont fire without the debt service how much is it sixty two thousand sixty three thousand without the debt service wow I thought it used to be they always come in and say we want the same level of funding and it always seemed to be thirty thousand no but it's you know the dispatch goes off oh yeah the dispatch but they always think they control about thirty five thirty and then the dispatch's stuff they have that but they never consider that part of the budget they do they put it into their presentation because they take that whole sixty thousand dollars and they use it as in their tax reporting they use that in their taxes so they claim that all is a gift to the fire department or something a donation no but I'm saying that so they do take it all in when you add the debt service all that stuff I would have to but it's the bond for the fire where's our last year's tax report because it's got it down there well I'm going to run off the tabulator pretty soon if you guys are ready I didn't mean to get us off on that oh I think it's what we need to keep I've been meaning to bring that up I bet with that guy it's a common problem so there's no we're probably talking about seventy eight thousand dollars so we're seventy eight seventy eight and sixty two so that's one hundred and forty one hundred and forty one hundred and forty other to sixty two no one hundred and forty total that's including their debt service one hundred and forty that's a pretty good chunk of it I don't think to cut to the other issue and I haven't asked in a while but I vaguely remember when I was talking to them in Montpelier to provide fire service for men of sex and that was eight or ten years ago and it was a quarter of a million dollars can we ever talk to Waterbury? no we'd have to have three towns although there are because of the problem of getting volunteers there's a group from the northeast kingdom that's creating a regional but the legislature just tried to do that Patty Lewis was really involved in that and just went nowhere from the legislative point they tried to create a district with like Barry Berlin but if you had towns that were interested in doing it and did it on their own they would create a fire district essentially so I want to be careful how I say this and I've said it many times in the past you can probably hear it from me again but you know despite all these issues and all these problems is we have as good rural fire protection in middle sex as there is anywhere but it's largely because of the mutual aid situation and thank God we have that and if we get on the cusp of not having enough volunteers to be eligible and I don't know what that I've tried to figure out with that there was a firm line in the sand where all of a sudden you get dropped but you know if you can't respond to a certain number of calls they drop you I mean they're their issues there I'm not aware that we have ever been on the cusp of having that happen we did have a time when we didn't have a tanker and that was a problem you know there's a guy who lives on East Hill and they're I think he's the one who's got the pond near the road I always heard he was a retired New York City fire pond near the road you know it's up near Yvonne and you know the house Little Whitaker's area all those houses there the one pond by the road the little pond I always thought there was a firefighter from New York City I'm just wondering if that's true and whether or not that person might want to get involved I heard of another person who apparently teaches for CCV who's a retired chief and does you know like the classes for recertification on certain things so where is that person you sure it's not Paula Tenty no I can't remember the name but I was going to follow up on that maybe see if I can track him down but anyway there must be some more firefighters in this neck of the woods yeah I mean I had a $32,000 consultant to get that and for advice I already consider that we have the advice forget that look at the money I know the town manager was really helpful he said well here let me just tell you what he said but I mean the thing is we have 16 a year and they have 3,000 a year well they have all those you know hotels they have well they have all kinds I mean you think we have auto accidents that we respond to imagine the mountain road on a snowy sunday they also have the tax base no they do okay I mean it doesn't mean that we shouldn't look at that whole business again maybe Waterbury would I remember I went well no I I didn't even mention it but he reached out to me and said hey we need to get together so who's that your fire chief Waterbury so hopefully yeah hopefully he's not saying we're about to file a formal complaint against your department no he isn't I'm sure anyway I need to I need to reach back out to him whether we do it in the meeting or not I just want to get an update on what's happening on that zoning we haven't met yet we're due to meet very soon don't you have a deadline then when you have to get a decision at any other business I think we're all exhausted I know I am I feel like it could be 1030 I want Moe for a dinner we don't have to do that I just thought you'd like satisfaction I want to go home and just look at my new tires I don't know what I want to do okay so are there any other zoning things we got tires from Town Fair tires for well yeah we actually got them in Rutland we're coming back from Florida um