It actually goes both ways. Like some people who work on stuff, I feel like there's this thing of like, everything should be beautifully made and lasts forever. And yes, but actually, I don't think that every object you own, you have to keep forever and commit to for the rest of your life. And you have to live in like a museum that looks like architectural digest and everything costs, you know, no, actually some things move into your life and move out of them. The key is that if they move into your life and into your life and into a landfill, that's the problem. You have to share them with other people and build that circularity in. But I feel like we need to have, the part of a healthy relationship is, as you said, an attachment and appreciation of the things around us on the one hand, objects that are well made that can last a long time and an understanding that there can be a flow of objects through our homes and through our lives and back out into somebody else's home and life and that that's part of it too. ["Inside Ideas"] Sandra Goldmark is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Sandra is the founder of FixUp, formerly Pop-Up Repair, an innovative social enterprise in New York City. She is also a theater set costume designer, a leader in the field of sustainable theatrical design and director of the sustainability and climate action program and associate professor of professional practice at Bernard College. She has an A, B, and American literature from Harvard College and an MFA in theatrical design from Yale University. In her book that I have right here, Fixation, how to have stuff without breaking the planet, which was published in 2020, September 2020. Sandra Goldmark calls on us all to move beyond our throwaway culture by rethinking how we shop and what we value and to incentivize companies to produce better, easily repairable goods that really are in desperate need from some of us to be fixed to be repaired instead of thrown away. Sandra adapts a simple model from the food movement that has profound implementations, have good stuff, not too much, mostly reclaimed, care for it and pass it on. Sandra is so good to have you here on the show. Thank you for making it. Hi, thank you for having me. It's so great. You've got a busy schedule and you're doing a lot of things at Bernard College and you're in New York and all sorts of busy things going on in these crazy times that we're living through. So I really value your time to connect with me and talk about your book. We could talk for hours because there's not only, as I just teased in your quote here at the end of your biography, a lot of things to do with food and Michael Pollan are connections to that as well. As well as one of my mentors, William Bill McDonough from Cradle to Cradle and Michele Browngart, who actually lives in Hamburg. He lives a little bit outside of Hamburg and has the Cradle to Cradle office right across from the Hamburg Parliament. And you mentioned them a lot in your book as well. You've been doing this for a while. So obviously you got into it in kind of what some people might say is a roundabout way. Theater, design, things like that. And now it's almost got this overarching sustainability fixation theme. And so my question with all this experience, all this educating and teaching people in different ways where you kind of touch on these subjects, how in the hell have you weathered this pandemic, the crazy time Black Lives Matters, the inauguration, all the social distancing in relation to what you do, not only teaching, but in the book fixation. And that has any of that given you resilience to get through these crazy times or have you been hard hit yourself? Yeah, let's start with a big question then. This year has been in some ways for me difficult in the sense that it has been for everybody, that it's been a really crazy year. But on the other hand, I feel very lucky that for me personally and my family, we've been okay. I'm very conscious of that. We did get COVID, my husband and I got COVID early in the pandemic in March here in New York. But it was okay, it wasn't too bad. And in some strange way, having had it early at the very least removed some of the anxiety for us. And while it's been like, as for many people, to have your sort of regular routine upended, there have been, first of all, we have not, we have jobs, we haven't lost anyone close to us, so we count ourselves very lucky. And on the others, there have been some strange things that have been quite nice, like while it's difficult to work with children shouting and jumping in the background, it's nice to have extra time with them. We spent a lot more time in New York State this summer than we do normally and really, because we couldn't go anywhere. And that was wonderful. And on a bigger level, it has been like in terms of work, you know, people ask me like, oh, do you see, you know, you work on consumption, do you feel like the pandemic is helping people consume less or better? And frankly, the answer is no, but, or at least in America, but, and maybe we'll talk about that. But I do think this, this sort of terrible slowdown and pause is definitely an opportunity for reflection or a forced reflection. And I do think in terms of climate change, I do think that the conversation is shifting. And that is maybe the most important thing. So maybe that's the, I don't, I hesitate to say silver lining, but the, you know, the, the new growth that might, or the new, you know, like the little flower that might grow from the winter. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Your book also was released September 22nd to 2020. So right at the, the middle of the pandemic. So I mean, I don't know if you have other experiences with other book launches or release, you have a fabulous publisher, Island Press. So, so that they're great to work with. But I mean, that's also something that's kind of different. Now you're not doing like book signings or tours or going anywhere or that it's all online. And how did, how did you feel about that? Was that like a kind of a weird experience or was that also okay? Well, luckily this was my first book. So I didn't have anything to compare it to. So I thought this is great. And also I had secretly, but you know, before the pandemic I had secretly thought, oh my God, am I going to have to like fly all over the place for this book about sustainability? And I thought maybe I need to sort of. You know, like rent a little electric car and drive. You know, I couldn't quite imagine flying all over the place to talk about a book about sustainability. I mean, this sort of hypocrisy just seemed kind of insurmountable. So that was good in the end. And I think probably. It's not a good time to publish a book maybe during a pandemic, especially if it's, you know, not about something sort of critical mission critical at the, at the time, but, but it is what it is. And I, I'm happy to have been able to talk to so many people all over the world without, you know, about traveling. So maybe, maybe another silver lining. Yeah. A more effective use of your time more efficiency. I mean, I used to travel a lot as well. And I spent most of the time in airplanes, taxis, hotel rooms in and out. And it's just kind of very shallow, not a lot of depth and substance. And it's very quick. You never kind of really get to have that interaction with people. And this is kind of more efficient of time. And sometimes we can make those, those good connections. Just, just for, for my listeners and for you as well, there's when I was in elementary and in junior high school, I was on the drama team, the stage crew and theater team where I did the lighting and the sounds and did the set design. Well, obviously with a, with a teacher who, who was in charge of us and kind of giving us direction for the specific plays or the programs that we would do. And so I, I, I get it when I read your book and hear a little bit about how, how you came to this, how you kind of have to out of necessity, find ways to create a set on the stage of a theater. You've got to make it look like a house or a city or whatever type of environment. And you really have to, you don't have in some, especially in elementary and junior high, you don't have very big budgets. So you're pretty much a scrappy. I remember going to, that we had this area called the pit and it was like a big dumpster people. It was just the old people go dump their trucks there, all their garbage.  We could get it and then build it up at the school. But I really love, I have to tell you, I was so glad I had a physical copy. I also got the digital copy. I read it a couple of times and I love it. It's such a good book. There are so many great references. There's so many down to earth. It's an easy fun read and you make it very personal.   The way I read it, it's almost reals the inner says, okay, well, maybe that might not be possible or okay, let's, you know, and so I love that. The question really is, you feel like you are a global citizen and how would you feel about a world without nations, borders and divisions of humanity, one from another related to your book, your theories on fixation on this whole stage crew, design Bernard college. Now you might probably be teaching online and those things too. And your ties to sustainability. Do you think those are some of the issues we're dealing with today? It's funny that you put that sort of super small. I think that's the whole point of the universe of the theater right next to an idea of like a world without borders, because on the one hand that might seem like a kind of crazy juxtaposition like how does a question get from like, oh, you designed scenery to like, let's talk about the whole planet. But I like that juxtaposition because there's, you know, as you said, I come from this theater background, right? I just made scenery all through high school and college and then went to grad school for it. And I'm so happy that I did it. I just kind of designed and made these little worlds with theater people.   So, you know, you know, you have politics, you have people who sweep the stage and people who strut around, you know, feeling very important and everything in between.  And the scale of it is very human. I think this is one of the reasons a lot of people in, in, in school at all levels really love theater. First of all, it's creative. It's fun. But there's a scale to it that I think we as humans kind of understand instinctively. It's a group of like, you know, 10 to 50 people full hunter gatherer size group. And everybody really matters. Like if that person does not sweep the stage and doesn't push the, the, you know, push the button to turn the light on at the right time, like the show is screwed. And so even though there are sort of hierarchies and importance, there's a real sense when theaters going properly, that we all matter. And there's also a sense that within a certain structure, we're inventing this world. We're creating this world together and we have a creative process. And so, and the role of scenery within that, the first thing is, you know, that people think of, as you said, is like location, right? Like, are we in a city or in a castle? I think you said, but there's a layer to design within theater that is actually about meaning. And it's about setting up the rules of this world. Like when I walk in as an audience member. Is this a, is this a world? There's a writer named Dennis Kennedy who writes beautifully and he calls it the thematic signifiers, which sounds sort of like, I think, academic speak, but what it means is that you walk in and you understand, oh, this is a world where this happens, where this is important, where people speak like this, where I understand the emotional quality of this experience before anything happens just because of the music that's playing or the visuals I see. So for me, the role of the designer and the theater is to help create that, that tone, that world. And especially for my part of design, thinking about the physical objects that occupy it. So the way for me that translate into like this big jump of like a world without borders is I think, funnily enough, as I've started thinking about and working on questions far beyond theater or far beyond design, I have to lean really heavily on my work on my many years in theater because like, that's all I've got, you know, and so I look to some of the ways we make decisions, not that theater is all perfect, good and bad, you know, some of the ways that we are, as you said, scrappy and resourceful and kind of the original circular economy and some of the ways that were very wasteful and some of the ways that we value each person on the team and some of the ways that we don't and some of the ways that our labor is not fairly compensated. And so I think there are analogies to much broader scale human endeavors in terms of thinking about what are the rules of the world we're creating? We have this incredible creative capacity as humans. So how do we, how are we going to design that world in a way that is beautiful and fair and regenerative? How are we going to think about the material objects that we make and create and have them communicate a meaning that's really the meaning we want to say? And how are we going to value the labor of all of the people in our little, in our little made up world? And really make sure that it's in alignment, that if we think we're telling a story of a healthy planet or a regenerative society, that we're not saying one thing with our words and doing another with our physical actions or our social actions, like, you know, the way we pay people or the way we credit them for their work.  There's absolutely no, no anyway, because I'm so glad that we're aligned and you were able to draw those connections because they are so real. And that's why I brought them up because there's an enormous amount of diversity in the theater and that whole stage crew, theatrical environment, the way from, from every aspect, every job or role or even audience, not only the audiences from, you know, back, back in my situation was much different that you're at a different level, obviously, and I have experience of that, than I had way back then, elementary, junior high, but grandparents and people of color and different cultures and different times of the year, you know, and I would even remember times when we would do some kind of a Christmas thing where I was like, well, what about the Jewish people? What about Muslim? What about all these others? You know, so I guess this is only a select audience and how does that work with the students, students and that. And so, but also where I was getting scraps and things of someone's rest to build in that, but there's that much bigger connection where not only are we very creative in that process or you are very creative and what you design for the theater, you're creating this new world, but the only way you have to draw on that experiences from the stories or the history of the real world that you've experienced somewhere else. And it really is one that doesn't function well with social distancing, borders, division of humanity, one from another. It tells a different type of story. And it's one that always ends in something negative, a collapse or destruct. There's usually not a lot of positive stories in that respect where it's, okay, because of that, then we moved on to this much more desirable, better future. It's one that kind of prolificates into something more negative and harmful down the road. And so, and this kind of ties to where we're going to touch a little bit on food and things and also on business is during the pandemic, during the lockdown, air, water, food were all global citizens, didn't see nations, borders, divisions, didn't stop in most cases. And the pandemic was very exponential. It didn't also stop at borders and nations. And it really, it would have spread regardless of air travel, regardless of ship travel, probably in a 10 to 15 day period anywhere, just because of the air flows of our world and the pollution that we have going on in our world. But it was exponential because of our air travel. And so I wanted to get your views on that thought process because currently our world's civilization frameworks have a lot of us human beings at this ease. One with another one with our politics are kind of saying this civilization frameworks not working for us anymore. It's not representing me. And in your book, you specifically get into this couple of ways. You mentioned companies like Apple and Ikea and built in obsolescence. And then you also touch upon some great wisdoms from Michael Poland and his food wisdoms and things and how that's related to the built environment. But those are very global operations. Those are very big operations for that. And so I wanted to get your take because I have that feeling as well. The question really is, I get the sense that it's not about the brands of the future, the products of the future. It's about how we produce any product, manufacture it and make those products that really can reduce not only obsolescence, but also human suffering and solve our global grand challenges in the future. And more so than it is, this is a sustainable brand. Apple or Patagonia or whatever. And I wanted to get your fillings on. Is there a more tangible term or way of looking at that? Because we tend to get caught up in this. All the brands of the future that are real sustainable is this and this. Well, it's not. It's about how you produce. It's kind of my opinion. I want to get your views on that. But I think it's definitely not about the products of the future. There's no single. Product that's going to do it. But there might be a product that's made. By a brand of the future and the brand of the future are the brands that are building, I guess you might call it like the systems of the future. Or maybe it's the systems of the past. I don't know. I don't know that these systems are really so new. The ones that we really need to. To build out. In fact, they're probably very ancient. And all around us in the natural world innovation to me. There's this. David sacks has this op-ed called and the innovation obsession where he talks about. The concept of rear view innovation. And not thinking of innovative products or brands or systems as something that's like, whoa, you know. I'm surprised, but more things that, especially now as we're facing. Such big challenges, things that, that look to what has worked in the past or what works in nature. So I guess for me, like the big challenge for brands is to build. For me, it really boils down to like. Building a system. That it's about circularity, plain and simple, right? We have a linear system right now. We have a linear system right now. We have a linear system right now. We have a linear system right now. Most companies, business models are totally built on a linear system where they extract materials from the earth. Make them sell them. And then they basically go into landfill pretty much. And so to me, the whole like. Path forward is to think in about circular systems is where you mentioned cradle to cradle, but like. That you have to create a business model that isn't built on that, that isn't built on always selling more new objects, but that has revenue that comes from some new objects that are made in a different way. That comes from reuse business model built on repair service upgrade. So that little Michael pollen kind of adapted adapted tagline that you mentioned of have good stuff, not too much. That's really all about circularity and it applies at every level. It applies to an individual who's thinking, how should I shop? Like what is a sustainable brand? Or a business that's trying to say either trying to be responsible or frankly trying to survive in the kind of coming years. And also to policymakers to say, how can we kind of scale and support building these systems globally? So. I guess, yeah, for me, a sustainable brand is one that is really, really looking at building a regenerative circular system for how they work. And that means their business model. I guess this is probably a point where we can, where we can get into this. Individual action versus political or bigger actions. There's a lot of debate back and forth or. There's a lot of confusion where, you know, it's, oh, it's the consumer's responsibility or it's the individual where I'm too small to do anything. And there are some things that tie to the bigger circularity with, you know, Ellen MacArthur Foundation, big circular economy. But the other economy that you were also talking about is really, it makes a stractive and extractive economy, which is very destructive. It's cradle to grave. It's got an end. It just piles up. What are some of the things in the US or your other discussions around it? What are you seeing the confusion between this individual action or I'm too small or this bigger political or production point of view on that? Well, I see, I feel like there's a weird discussion or conversation happening right now that I feel like often sort of almost like pits individual action against some people's responsibility. Some people say systemic change or some people like to talk about policy changes or some people like to really point to the kind of corporate responsibility. And for me, I just don't see these as opposed. I don't see it as an either or in fact, I see both as completely necessary. I don't think we're going to get systemic change without a whole lot of individuals changing their individual actions. At the same time, I think that corporations and policymakers have a much higher level of responsibility to make those changes in their systems, which are big systems within the larger system. What's a corporation? It's a system within a larger system. What's my household? It's a very small system within a nest of larger, larger, larger systems. And what am I? I'm a little system in my household, in my city, in my country connected with all these corporations. To me, they're all connected. They're all one system. And so every single part of the system needs to shift.  So I can't make these changes. Then, you know, that's BS. You can. Because sometimes you can take it if you build it, they will come model. And also the demand is there, which we can talk about later. If you're an individual and you're sitting around and being like, well, it doesn't matter what I do. You know, we just need system change. Well, you're part of the system. That would be like a leaf on a tree being like, well, I don't care what the tree trunk does. I'm just going to, you know, I'll do my own thing. I'll do my own thing. I'll do my own thing. I'll do my own thing. I'll do my own thing.  You're totally connected to the larger organism, to the larger system. And those, you know, changes come from the top down, but they also come from the bottom up. And in fact, they really work when they go together. So sometimes people say like, oh, the most important thing you can do is vote. Like, yes, if it's an either or, if you have a choice between, if you only do one thing all year and it's vote, you can change your personal shopping habits, please vote. But I don't think that's how human beings work. I do lots of things all day long. And in fact, the things that I do all day long, the things I do in my household, the things I do in my community, the things I talk about with my people in my organization, where I work, those inform how I vote. Those inform how my neighbors vote. That informs how my children will vote. That informs whether people vote. I think it's important to me, the debate or the discussion of like, to say individual actions don't matter to me is idiotic because you might as well tell me not to vote. Right. It's this, that's, that's an individual action. It's just one at my vote. And frankly, it's true. If I don't vote next election, it doesn't matter. But it does because as soon as you say that, every single person can say, well, I'm just going to sit this one out.  I mean, it's a marshal's debate. I think it disempowers people. And I think it gets into a sort of weird. Spiral. Yeah. Side thing that is sort of Michael. It's not useful. So I think it's, it's, it's, it's everything. It's it's, um, We're all at every level in action is also, uh, to do anything where I'm going to set this one out. It is an action in and of itself because you're giving way to someone else to deliver the future to you or futures to you by having that in action. And there is, so we really touched upon a few things right out of the ship. One more thing though about that individual action thing that I do want to acknowledge and understand is the plastic bag example for me is a great example of where you can get into some sort of BS on all fronts. When you go into a store and there's a little plastic bag and it says, please recycle, that's where you're like, okay, all of this is ridiculous because that bag shouldn't be there. The store should not be putting this bag that can't be recycled and then asking me, the individual to like magically somehow on my own, like recycle this bag that can't be recycled and shouldn't have been made in the first place. So I want to be clear that I'm not saying like, for those of us like me sort of who've been dutifully saving and trying to not take our bags and bringing our canvas bag, like we do need the kind of corporate thing of being like, no, that's bullshit. You can't just stick that bag in the store and say, please recycle individual consumer and think that we're at all gonna solve the problem that way. At the same time, those individuals who dutifully bring their canvas bag to the Seatown every week are actually sort of helping lay the groundwork for the bag band that eventually gets passed by city council. If you don't have those sort of early adopters and those individuals saying, actually it's possible to bring my canvas bag and then encouraging their neighbors to do it.  And then other people are like, I guess I can do this too. I can, so it's like there's a relationship between these and you need to sort of acknowledge the role of all of them. Sorry, I just wanted to clarify that it's- No, that's so important. There's also a form of an infrastructure that needs to be there or support from community, cities, organizations that give that convenience aspect so that it's easier to do the right thing. That there's not even that option really there and it's when it comes to human nature it's usually we default for the convenient aspect. If we're hungry, we do what's the most quickest and convenient. We don't think about all these other bags and choices that we need to make along the way. But in some respects to go back to what we were speaking just a tad bit before there is this systemic thinking. Everything in our world systems, you said it was so eloquently.  We're like, give me the TED talk or the simple answer, the short version, the elevator pitch. Those don't solve our global ground challenges. Don't fix these complex things. And then if you understand all these systems no matter how small they're all intertwined with one another in the bigger system we're working most of them autonomously every single day. It's okay to embrace that complexity and say, yeah, every day I get up, I breathe, I eat, I sleep. I do all these other things that gets me through but that's multiple systems working almost gooey autonomously every single day. So embrace that complexity and say, no, I can definitely do it. There was for me in your book, an aha moment which I want you to break down for me. In here you said that with your repairs and your fixing of products you also started kind of a questionnaire with people where you would ask them, are you doing this because it's sustainable or for the environment or the earth and for me, the responses you receive were like, yeah, that makes sense but it was also kind of shocking because you think, no, they're doing it because they're sustainable and the result was actually something total different. Can you kind of give us more insight into that and what those questionnaires over time told you and what learnings you had from that? Yeah, so we asked, we thought, we came into running these repair shops with such a kind of green crusader spirit like, you know, no more blenders to landfill. And we assumed that all of our customers were doing the same thing that they were fixing their blenders to say the planet or to reduce waste or whatever. And but we did a little survey and we found out that they all said, you know, it was like one, something like one to 10 did you come here for yourself or to save the planet or reduce waste? Everyone said, I came here for myself and everybody said that they did it because they wanted that specific object to work. And it was really interesting. At first I was disappointed. I was like, oh my God, we're doomed, you know.  But it was really interesting that they all, it was really like this particular object, they just wanted it to work and the sort of waste reduction was definitely a bonus. But more importantly, what I realized was the waste reduction wasn't even that, even that wasn't so altruistic. It was more like a lot of them felt a lot of guilt about chucking the broken thing because they felt like it was kind of perfectly good and it felt wasteful.   And it made me realize that like, it's just a different conversation. It's not, we're never gonna sort of all altruistically, I guess sort of say like, we're gonna do the right thing or save the planet, but we can build these pathways to where those behaviors are easier for people because actually they do want them and they do feel good for people. If you can make it feel, if you can make it not too hard because people are busy. People are working really hard. People have, you know, kids, they have two jobs. They have whatever. So like, I wound up feeling hopeful in the end because I realized, you know, it's really all focusing in this case on these stuff. Like they have these attachments to these objects. And at first I thought this is crazy. And then I thought, wait a minute, no, it's like that attachment, that connection is actually valuable and powerful and can weirdly wind up if we build the right system with like the right answer, the right action. Does that make any sense? It totally makes it goes back to actually what we were talking about on how you produce and this, if it doesn't have built-in obsolescence it's something that you, it becomes part of your culture, your family as a tool to your life that you can have forever. And I don't know how well this relates, but there's a section in your book as well I don't know if it was with your kids who were at an event where you're talking about what's the original tool, you know? And it's basically a rock and how people didn't take the original Neanderthals or whoever, and I'll let you describe it better than I do, have a rock. They didn't carry the rocks from one city or one place of the world to another. They just found another rock where they're going and as over time we've kind of gotten this every tool, everything that I pick up, I've got to keep and I've got to keep it forever and carry it around with me. It's like you to tell me a little bit more about that story if you don't mind. So now you're getting into like this question of humans and stuff, which I feel like I got so interested in in writing this book because I feel like it's a little bit under-recognized in some people's daily lives, like how important this topic is.  Like even if you're backpacking in the middle of, you know, Yukon territory, you're wearing clothes, you've got tools, you've hopefully got a tent. Like, and most likely you're sitting in a home or an office literally surrounded by man-made or human-made objects. Like this is how we live. It is totally central to our species. And even if you look way back or at societies that today have much less numerical objects, like a less volume of objects, we still, as humans, we have and we make tools and make things for those tools. Like it's as important as food, as cooked food. We can't survive without it. It's as important as language. It's one of the defining things of our species. So actually thinking about stuff in the built environment or whatever you wanna call it is, to me, actually needs to be kind of central, especially because manufacturing is such a huge driver of environmental degradation. So we actually really need to talk and think about, yes, some of the big drivers like concrete, but also the things that all of us interact with on a daily basis that can help inform the way we think about some of those more abstract, distant things like concrete. So the way I think about it is, he mentioned the sort of like, you know, Neanderthal. It was cause I was in Branson, like a Neanderthal museum. And it's actually goes both ways. Like some people who work on stuff, I feel like there's this thing of like, everything should be beautifully made and lasts forever and yes. But actually I don't think that every object you own, you have to keep forever and commit to for the rest of your life. And you have to live in like a museum that looks like architectural digest and everything costs, you know, no, actually some things move into your life and move out of them. The key is that if they move into your life and into out of your life and into a landfill, that's the problem. You have to share them with other people and build that circularity in. But I feel like we need to have the part of a healthy relationship is, as you said, an attachment and appreciation of the things around us on the one hand, objects that are well made that can last a long time. And an understanding that there can be a flow of objects through our homes and through our lives and back out into somebody else's home and life and that that's part of it too. So it's kind of a, it's like maybe let's just use the 100, you know, the Neanderthal analogy, maybe that first rock, maybe there's one that works really well and you hold onto that one. Everybody who's used any tool knows like, oh, that drill, I love that drill. It fits my hand versus sometimes you're like, oh, I'll pick up whichever hammer they work.  But the key part of it is to recognize the value of these objects and the human labor that went into them and that either you keep it, you fix it for a long time or you pass it on to somebody else. I just had Alan Moore on the podcast. He wrote a couple of books, Do Design and Do Build. I've got them right here as well. And in Do Build, he really talks about that as well. He talks, goes in specifically about different companies. One of them's an axe company that's very well built and it's really about how we think how products are made and produced. And I mean, that's kind of an overarching theme and not only your book, but also the direction of thinking and circular economy that we need to go with humanity and to repair, regeneration, restoration. How do we do that? And when we're, we detach that tool or that object from ourselves and we decide instead of going to the landfill that we try to have it in a good condition to pass it on to someone else who can use it or in a way to recycle it as much as possible to get into another new product that works and that's what, you know, with the plastics that you brought up, I speak at a lot of food events and for me, the complex food systems is a lot about packaging and how we produce those and transport those goods and those food products. And plastic for me is the Frankenstein, the big evil. But it's only that because it's pretty much a single use or cradle to grave type of thought process. And if Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Unilever, Nestle, they said, okay, every year or every day we produce, you know, a hundred million metric tons of plastic and drink products that go out every day. But every single day we clean up that same amount of a hundred million no matter if it's our products or not, as long as it's plastic, no matter what brand, what number, what level we'll take that back. And we've found a new innovation to get it back into the cycle, to keep that in the flow so that it never ends up in our oceans and microplastics in our landfills. And that is just continually in this organic or technical circle, closed system that doesn't come back to harm humans or our environment in any way. Well, and you know what's so funny is it's not new, like early Coca-Cola, but was in glass and they collected the bottles and they refilled the Coke bottles or milk, you know, like the idea of sort of circularity and packaging, it's not even that far in the past. I think it's, it's, it was pretty basic, but you know, in the 19th and early 20th century to basically do what loop is doing, refillable packaging. Yeah, and I think somewhere we got off the track because we started cheapening the way we did products and whether it's you cheapen food or you cheapen any product, you actually in return cheapen life because somewhere someone has to pay for that cheapening. They are not being paid a fair wage or there's an environmental impact or then the way they're disposed of is a big impact and comes back to bite us. So your book really talks about that many different aspects and that, but I want to, before, I want people to go out. I want them to buy your book. I want them to get the physical copy or digital if it's available and read it and really consume it. So I don't want to give too much away but I want to get into one last aspect and I'm kind of caveat that with an example that I had. Matter of fact, it was just last week. I spoke for a big European company that are actually based out of Germany.  They do climate controls and heating and air conditionings, refrigeration. It's called Wiesmann and a fabulous five generation company that is really trying to move in the right direction circular economy and things. They have a big issue in Europe especially with people saying, okay, we've got this old Wiesmann boiler or this old way that's based on fossil fuels or coal or another type of kind of inefficient, very destructive and not up to date for infrastructure or this renewable transition, energy transition or this clean tech future. And we'd like to get people to that but we just have people having trouble letting go of this old thing. So they're in your book and in this whole principle I see two kind of different. There's definitely things that should be fixable, should be kept in the cycle but then there's some things that are still based on the industrial revolution and a very fossil fuel intensive way of producing, plastics that take tons of oil and fossil fuels on and on. To make sure of how do you, what are your thoughts or your feelings on this jump to a new type of a transition or a new model of getting us to the future where we need to be off of fossil fuels, off of oils, off of bad type of products that are this cradle to grave thinking. Yeah, I mean, I think the word you used is right is transition, it's gonna be a slow process like we can't all right now, we shouldn't all right now run out and replace everything we've got with the new shiny even if it's energy efficient model like when but when that thing is up for replacement because of the embodied carbon also in the new object but when that thing is up for replacement that's when the opportunity in terms of especially big things like HVAC and heating and cooling is to really make that decision right. Like my building is actually considering it and we have to get a new boiler and it's a big expense, it's a big step and that's a minimum 10 year commitment. So that's like those type of decisions are gonna be big for individuals, for businesses, for buildings, for cities. How do we slowly transition out the old equipment for the new? One of the things that I think we really need to start talking about though is the way we build that new equipment. Like if you look at electric cars as a great example we have to now with all these commitments in the United States and in Europe we're talking about essentially transitioning our whole fleet of vehicles from combustion engines to electric vehicles which is amazing and absolutely needs to happen. And nobody would have thought like four years ago that would be really seriously kind of having this conversation at least in the United States but what I'm not hearing as much is a really serious conversation about how we make that new fleet. What kind of circularity principles are we gonna use to not just make the new fleet with the old linear design and production systems? You hear it about batteries where people are like, oh, we have to make the batteries recyclable and this and that. What about the steel? What about the car, the seating material? What about the dashboard? The whole car as we transition to this new fleet should not only be energy efficient but needs to be made with circular principles.  We have a huge fire hose of brand new things everything from like plastic bottles to cars to HVAC units being made with raw materials and now we're talking about maybe making them better but that pipeline of raw materials needs to really, really, really over time diminish and transition a new sort of feed stock of reclaimed materials so that we're making those new cars and HVAC units and blenders and whatever with reclaimed materials. And that's a really tall order and it's gonna take a while but I think we have to do it that way in order for it to be not just about energy but also about the material impact and labor, right? How are we making these things? How are we paying for people to make them? I've got really big, sorry. No, no, that's where we need it. So in your book, you really talk about repair activism the care economy, the circular economy, the stuff movement the true differences between development and maintenance there are so many not just nuggets of wisdom but actually tools and ways to kind of see the world in a different way. And it's not one that really comes over as evangelizing sustainability don't come across as a tree hugger or an extremist in that respect but it's just the realities of nice creative beautiful design and ways to repair that can kind of change the way we look and see things to help us as individuals transition a lot easier but maybe even nudge larger corporations and organizations to go in that direction of a different built environment how we do things differently. You from Bernard College have some tools as well and I'm gonna let you touch upon because you know that I'm better than I do but the sustainable production toolkit and I think you're also working on Bernard circular campus thing as well maybe you could tell us about some other tools and things, I mean you did pretty heavily this whole repair movement, the shops, the pop-up stores the markets and things as well and so you've had that breath and I don't know if it's still going on it as much as it was but I'd like to kind of know about the new tools what things you're working on what's coming out, get us up to speed. So we, I paused the repair shops I came to a point with the repair shops I was doing them, you know I'm teaching at Barnard the whole time and still also designing for theater and running these repair shops and I came to a point where I was like what am I doing, you know am I gonna be a repair shop owner or something and I thought, you know I could scale that way like quit all my quit my job and run these repair shops and fix every lamp in New York and I realized that at a certain point what I wanted to do was sort of like scale the conversation in a way to say what we learned about in these repair shops how does that apply to bigger questions of circularity how does that apply to what we're doing at Barnard in terms of climate action and trying to build a circular campus as you said how does that apply to what I've been doing in theater all these years? So I thought and I had the opportunity to write this book which is a big surprise for me so I put the repair shops on hold and wrote the book in the hopes that as you said it would nudge or inspire other businesses other communities to develop these kind of systems of circularity at all levels big businesses like the Walmart, you know and in fact it's interesting not because of my book but like in 2020 IKEA committed to becoming fully circular by 2030 which is amazing and when I started this project in 2013 would have been seemed very far-fetched so it is happening and I feel like for me I've sort of trying to tell this story about consumption and repair and then as I said apply it to theater apply it to our campus. I love that. And so there's the sustainable production toolkit you're coming out as well. Oh yeah, so that is something I co-authored with some fellow theater artists we just did it over the pandemic summer all the theaters shut down and these are some fellow theater people who also have felt for many years that our industry needed to really address this address climate change more seriously and at the same time that we were starting to put together the toolkit we wanted to just basically make it easier because theaters have major sort of bandwidth issues nobody has extra staff to like do carbon accounting or extra money to put solar panels on the roof like it's really challenging for that particular industry but we also felt like it's really important because A we feel like every industry needs to tackle these things and B we felt like cultural organizations and arts organizations have a role to play and then at the same time the kind of events of the summer of George Floyd protests erupted and there was this real reckoning with systemic races in American theater that had been there before but really came to a head in the summer and so we're trying also to help theaters see how and this applies to the larger conversation of all of climate change trying to make the case that working on climate response and working on social justice issues actually really go hand in hand and it's not like oh now I have another big really challenging item but actually this work is related because I think the roots of inequality and racism and climate change in a way are they share it's not one problem but they share common roots in what you said before which is extraction, extraction of labor, extraction of materials from the earth and a sense of dominion or ownership that is not right and not serving people. So the toolkit is like the book is a series of really practical tips and tools for theaters to become more sustainable but hopefully also touching on some really deep questions of how do we do this work? How do we make this transition in a way that is just and equitable but also try to break it down so it feels accessible, a path that is possible. Beautiful, I only have four more questions for you and the first one is actually the hardest one that I'll have to ask you today is the burning question WTF and no, it's not the swear word that we've all been asking for the last 12 months are saying it's really what's the future? And I don't wanna know for the US or I don't wanna know what's your vision of the future? For me or for the world? For you, what's your hope? What's your vision? Do you know what the roadmap and plan is? What's the future? It's funny you ask us just last night my husband and I were having sort of conversation. I think for anybody who really works on climate change and thinks about it all the time you tend to flip flop between a sort of state of like horror and despair or avoidance or hope. And I think there's definitely times when you look at the numbers and you think this is bad like this is bad A and B it's really bad and people aren't like jumping out of their skin to deal with it. So it's kind of two levels of worry though things have gotten much better in this country with the change of administration. But I guess for me the future is I guess I'm a naturally hopeful person and I feel like I have work that I've cut out for myself to try to join this effort at Barnard at Columbia in theaters in terms of circularity. And I feel like that is the work that I wanna keep doing and that hopefully can help like in my little corner of the puzzle. You know, I have children. I think anybody who has children you look to the future and you're a little worried or a lot worried. And so I think, you know, creating it sounds so vague. How do we doing this? Creating a world where I feel like they'll be able to be healthy and happy, you know for me, it's two things. One is the big like trying to work on the macro problems and then two working at home, you know raise your kids right. We bought a small piece of land upstate and we've been really trying to go there and use it as a place to kind of reconnect and figure out what we're doing and why we're doing this work. Sounds mushy, but it's a tough question. Life is mushy. I think that that's a great answer. And actually, ding, ding, ding, you got it right. That was the right answer. So I ask everyone that question. I've asked thousands of people that question and they're all different. I don't think I've had to be the same. A little bit more to tell you how and why I led you into that question is because if you ask people what's the future, basically what's the plan for the future? What's our, where are we going? Where are we gonna end up? Most people don't know, but to break it down very simple as it sounds, if we don't have a plan, a roadmap, a way to get there guaranteed someone else is gonna deliver the future for us and we're not gonna get there. So your circularity, the macro and micro levels, I think is a perfect plan. I'm a big sustainable developmental advocate, the Paris Agreement. I really think that's the world's first ever global moonshot we've ever had. It's a historical precedent, 192 countries for the first time ever in our history, agreed upon something. If you know anything about countries or politicians or delegates, you're like, oh my God, that is the most unbelievable historical precedence ever because the politicians and delegates can't agree upon anything, let alone 192 on a roadmap or plan for the future. And yeah, we've almost were derailed and had some snafus and that's not looking as good as it can, but it is a plan if we work at it chunk by chunk. I guess the only way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time. One, two at slowly, one bite at a time until you're done, not that I advocate eating elephants. That reminds me of the same conversation Mike and I last night at dinner, we were sort of, he was sort of, he was reading Uninhabitable Earth and he was, so that book always makes people feel really worried and despairing. And he was like saying, it's capitalism, it's capitalism. And I was saying, I think, yeah, maybe, but I also think there's something deeper that is also a little bit of array of hope. Like I think kind of what got us into this mess is weirdly is our human capacity, right?  We saw that in my repair shops, right? But neither is like a coyote or a rabbit. They're just gonna try to do the best they can for themselves. With the difference between the human and the rabbit is our capacity to transform the world around us, to build collaborative societies, to work together, to imagine a different future. And so far that capacity has done amazing things and has also gotten us into a whole lot of trouble. But I do feel when I look at things like the Paris Agreement or the UN SDGs or some of the shifts that are happening now, I do feel like maybe that weakness, that sort of fatal flaw is also our strength. And maybe we do have the capacity to change and to rebuild our society intentionally. Cause I always think that it works on an individual. I always think a person's strength is also their weakness and vice versa. And so maybe our weakness might just also be the strength that gets us out of it. Throughout your book, I have to say it again, I'm not, you haven't paid me to say this. I love your book. I see more so than I see circular economy principles or that it is a circular economy model. I see a regenerative economy model and that's really something that's emerging. It will progress and not only within the UN but within the world that more people are switching to regenerative business models or regenerative agriculture economies, regenerative capitalism, whatever you want to call it. It's a new way of operating within the safe spaces of our planetary boundaries. It's so new that I don't even think we know what it means yet. Yeah, no, we don't. I agree. Absolutely not. It's almost like the beginnings of sustainability or the beginnings of corporate social responsibility, environmental, social governance, what we're still grasping it. I've spoken on it 17 times this year alone, regenerative principles, practices, what it is. And every time they always think I'm gonna talk about regenerative agriculture, regenerative organics because I come from the food background, but I want people to understand what the whole, it's a whole different operating system. It's a whole different way of looking at the world and interacting. And so that's really what I see in your book because I read it with a different lens, but it's beautiful and I really recommend my listeners get it. The last three questions I have are really for my listeners. If you were to give my listeners a sustainable takeaway that had the power to change and impact their lives, your message, what would it be? I guess my message to a listener is to take action where you are, right?  And starting there, I think, is incredibly powerful and important.  If you're a mom at home, work on it at home and with your neighbors. If you're the head of a big company, do it there. But I really feel like people should and could feel empowered to pick up this work of really imagining and building a regenerative, sustainable future and to feel like every single person owns that work. Definitely. What should young innovators in your field be thinking about looking for ways to make real impact? So theater designers, educators, what should they be thinking about to make a real impact on the world? Well, I think theater designers really have an opportunity to push it in terms of circular design and production practices or regenerative design and production practices because theater is just a little Petri dish. It's relatively small. We already have a really strong tradition of circularity. We have a really huge push in the industry right now to think about anti-racism and social justice and designers and production people have a huge opportunity to kind of embody it, to make it real, to tell that story in the physical theater that we make. And then there's sort of no, it's not just words, it's right up there on stage. And so I think it's a great opportunity for theater makers. Is your sustainable production toolkit a nudge or a good thing to empower them to take that journey or to take that step in the right direction? Hopefully, yeah. Good, good, good. What have you experienced or learned so far in this crazy journey that you've had up until this point, professional and just life that you would have loved to know from the start? Hmm, I think this is something I still need to learn. I am currently learning it, which is that I'm trying to learn to sort of, you know, over the past 10 years, I took up a lot of work. I'm gonna start these repair shops. I'm gonna work on climate change. This is what I care the most about. I'm gonna try to help transform the American theater and Barnard College and all this stuff. And that's like nothing compared to the work that some people are doing in the world. But I'm trying to learn to do that work with a kind of lightness and joy and grace so that because there's no reason to do it any other way and it's much better. So that's my lesson that I'm working on right now. And I guess if I had thoroughly learned that lesson 20 years ago, it would be much easier right now, but that's where I am. Well, that's, I always say I'm still on the journey. So I'm still learning at the journey as kind of the process sometimes without that you wouldn't have learned those things, but I love that response. Sandra, thank you so much for letting us inside of your ideas on the podcast and sharing your wisdoms and insights and your wonderful book and your time and giving us your personal thoughts and feelings on your view on how we can transition to better futures. I really thank you so much. And unless you have anything else you'd like to share with us, I'm done with my questions today and I thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me. It was really fun talking.


It's on the gas is here Got a stream in portrait today because I Have My battery is going dead on my phone. So I gotta keep my battery on the charger So I got a stream in portrait, but I wanted to pop in because I was gonna shoot a video But I didn't get a chance to shoot a video but Keep getting this question and one thing, you know I'm just here to level the playing field and one thing that always urges my nerves as a relationship coach is When I'm coaching Women and they're dealing with a guy who keeps leaving You know who leaves multiple times we I did a video on why do men come back? But what I want you to understand speaking from a male perspective about when a guy keeps leaving First what you have to realize is that most men understanding key words most men Don't know how to be alone That's number one. Most men do not know how to be alone.  So understand that so men struggle being alone and You see that from the beginning of time when the creator said look this man needs someone with him Now she was made for him He was not made for her.  That's just the truth And if you really study humans the way I do you will find it to be true that it is easier And it's hard for a woman to be single and abstinent Men struggle with that and I never really meet men Who are single and abstinent? So Understand that is one reason why man always keeps a woman around Now the other thing what you have to realize is Number two is a man is always looking So what this means is men love to upgrade And when I say this I'm speaking the majority most men there will be exceptions to the rule So we're not here to argue about that men love to upgrade and So a man in a lot of cases does not know Exactly what he's looking for in a woman because it's women who are known for having a list Not a lot of men have a list There are men who have a list, but it's few and far in between So a man is learning a woman as he goes he's getting to know more and more of what he wants in a woman based on the women that he deals with and So a man will get with you and you're good enough for the time being and Then he starts to get bored and he starts to wonder if there's a better version of you so he starts to wonder if he's settling if you are truly his wife and He goes back to thinking of wanting a relationship to be easy and wanting it to not be you know stressful and Not wanting to put in a lot of work understanding Not understanding he has to communicate and he has to sacrifice and he has to give a lot So what happens is when he's tested and he's pushed and the relationship is Tugging on him saying listen. You got to communicate Listen, you got to sacrifice. You got to give you got to do more. You got to be more. You got to be faithful you can't be Abusive verbally emotionally socially physically financially you can't Take advantage of a woman just because you're hurting and so this relationship starts to require a lot of this man And it's uncomfortable because he has to sacrifice and so what happens is he will sabotage the relationship He'll get little attitudes. He'll get snappy. He may get distant He may start talking to another woman and allow you to catch it allow you to see his phone Like just leave it unlocked or leave it somewhere He knows you can get into it go into the code You know allow a woman to text him and not delete the text or call him and a man will find ways to kind of sabotage the relationship and what he's doing in this moment is he's trying to Make the woman Lose some self-worth and some self-esteem So that she will start to feel a sense of scarcity and say listen. I just want a man I just want a family I just want a child or a children or I just want to be with the father of my children So if he wants to do this or go to the club or gamble or talk to other women and I catch them I'm gonna check them, but I'm not gonna leave them a lot of times a man will Get caught Because I'll be honest with you. It's easy to cheat. I'll be out.  He doesn't care if he gets caught.  It could be any type of little test where you have compromised in an unhealthy way He feels he has you figured out. So he feels that if He gets caught slipping You're not going anywhere because he has sensed that you are desperate For a man.  Maybe you want to yell a little bit You know, you want to fuss a little bit if that's all you do He'll deal with that But pay attention to this pay attention to this Something strange happens a lot of times when a woman catches her man talking to another one Either flirting with another woman Emotionally cheating in the inbox Liking pictures or fat-out cheating with another woman something happens to women What what women do in that moment most women key word most start to feel insecure and inadequate and Now it puts the man in a position of power and the woman starts to seek his approval and Seek his love a woman will give more sex and better sex after being cheated on then With a faithful man Because with a completely 100% faithful man a lot of times with a good man a lot of times A woman takes a good man for granted. Oh, he's too soft or he's he's too submissive he's too easy and women want the bad boy because he seems tough and he seems secure and he seems Confident when really you're misreading everything. So a woman will Take advantage of a good man and take take a good man for granted and then when a man yells at her curses at her cheats on her, you know Emotionally or physically Then I see women as a relationship coach in the trenches every day all day not on your job in In the gossip mill in the cafeteria. We're not talking about that I'm talking from thousands of case studies and Six different continents from the ages of 16 to 68. I live it. I breathe it. This is what I do Most women start to seek this man's approval and do more Yes, she is mad. Yes. She's mad.   He knows you're desperate for love. You're desperate for a family You want a man? You want a family? You want to be with him? You wanted the work and because you saw Some other couples online go through all of this stuff and they worked out that you want that to be your story And he knows that and so because he knows that he plays on that and he knows that he can string you along He can use you how he needs to use you and keep you there While he is testing the market Playing the field and if he doesn't find anyone that's better than you he comes back to you He settles down with you and he gives you more than he gave you the time before So listen, I want you to understand that a man doesn't have to have a father a Man doesn't have to be raised in this healthy happy home to know how to love that's all a myth because Love and the ability to love is innate Yes, it is a learned behavior of how to get a relationship, right? But it's not hard to learn because it's common sense We know It a wolf could raise a man and he would know that you aren't supposed to lie cheap deceive manipulate beat verbally physically a Woman he knows what he should and should not do to a woman There are hardened thugs real-life killers Who treat their woman like a queen? It doesn't matter how hard he grew up or who he lost As a grown man, he knows right from wrong and how to love a woman stop making excuses for grown men I was an absolute savage and I knew exactly what I was doing Don't make excuses for a grown man. So if a man is Has left you two times three times if it goes more than that then It's 100% Over and he's leaving you because he's looking for the next best thing and guess what?  Leaving your presence for an extended period of time Because he knows another man will swoop in and snatch you up When I met my wife, I knew she was the one I Wanted her to adjust and to adapt to my grown boy ways So I tested her and I tried her tried to be controlled and tried to be Manipulative tried to be coercive or whatever it was. I never once left my wife She left me So that's the key difference. I need you to understand here. It's different if you left him Because of his behavior and then he fought and clawed and came to get you back That's different if you had to leave him to stand your ground, but if a man Continuously multiple times leaves you That's totally different because a man never Leaves a woman that he loves and he feels is the one Unless you're the toxic person and then he has to leave for his Morals and values and standards and then you got a fight to get him back But just to leave you for no reason like you didn't cheat on him.  He sabotage the relationship and leaving. That's your sign right there That is your sign right there. Trust me. Listen to me. Hear me on this That it's over let it go. It's over move on with your life because when a man knows he knows That's real you've heard that when a man knows he knows that is a hundred percent real That is 100% real what I would like to see the end of is career dating and multi-year Situationships if I could single-handedly in that I would and I'm in the fight against it. I am for intentional dating an intentional marriage It does not take a man three years four years five years to know if you are his wife If he's over the age of 25 if your man is over the age of 25 and you've been waiting on a ring for Five years four years You're wasting your time But I could break this up into several different little sessions and I'm gonna try to do like these 20 to 30 minute sessions once a week Tuesday night might be a good night, but I'll see but hey, thank you so much Share this with somebody who needs it, you know It's somebody on your Facebook page your Instagram who needs it you might need it if you need it Watch it two or three times.


So glad to have you here if you're returning viewer or listener to the non-profit show and if this is your first time, welcome. We're so glad that you found us. We are thrilled to start this week. It's a short week. We did celebrate Labor Day yesterday, but starting this week with Katie Warnick from Staffing Boutique where she is the CEO. And today she is coming to us to talk to us about non-cash staff perks that have an impact. So she has a lot to share with us on this topic. And Katie has been with us from the very beginning, March of 2020, and has really been around to help share and shape like what's happening in the moment. And so you really brought to us, as Julia mentioned in our green room chatter, you've really brought to the forefront, Katie, like the current events. What is happening now? What are the things we need to have our finger on the pulse? So so grateful to have you here as part of today's episode. Julia and I are both thrilled to have this conversation with you. We also want to acknowledge our sponsors that allow us this opportunity day in and day out. So a shout out of gratitude goes to our friends over at Bloomerang American Nonprofit Academy, Fundraising Academy at National University, Nonprofit Thought Leader, your part time controller, Staffing Boutique. Again, that's you, Katie. And so glad to have both you and you and Dana joining us each month. Also, thank you to Nonprofit Nerd as well as Nonprofit Tech Talk. These companies are here for all of you, our viewers and our listeners around the entire globe, because they want to help you do more good to help you elevate your mission. So as I mentioned before, Katie's been on, she's a staple and we love having your voice and your perspective to join us. If you missed any of these episodes, good news. I'm going to tell you where to find them. So the latest and greatest is you can download the app. If you're watching now, you can scan that QR code on the screen. And in just a couple of hours, you'll get a notification that today's conversation has been uploaded. You can also still find us on podcast platforms as well as streaming broadcasts. So pretty much anywhere you choose to binge watch or binge listen, you can have us in your peripheral. So excited, excited for that. And also thrilled to have you back, Katie. So welcome. Thanks. Always a pleasure. Yeah. You know, Katie, Jared and I were talking about this and it's just really fascinating there. There are few people that we've had on the nonprofit show consistently. I would say the other it's you and then your part time controller who I feel like the two of you are at the forefront of what's coming at us because finance money accounting. And then labor and those two magical things. I feel like with you coming to us on the nonprofit show, you've been able to kind of help guide us as to what some of these speed bumps are going to be and they have changed. So today is an interesting conversation because now we're talking about protecting the team protecting the staff, but we don't always have the money to do that. So what are some creative things. And so thank you for, you know, dipping into all of your years of knowledge and expertise and helping us to understand what are some of the things that we could be doing. So first one, and we're going to call this a perk, PTO personal time off. This can be kind of a sticky wicket for a lot of folks. What are your thoughts on this? Well, first of all, I just wanted to say, yeah, I love talking about retention, right. So with the nonprofit sector funds are always really, really tight. So retention is something that I've been preaching for, you know, years at this point. Your recruitment plan means nothing if you don't have a retention plan. So when we're talking about, you know, non cash perks incentives, we have to look at all them and what we could do and how we be created can be creative. So this is certainly a fun topic for us all to talk about, right.  It seems like everyone has gone to this, you know, I think that it's a great idea. I don't see why we aren't all adopting this at this point from a cost, you know, efficient perspective, I do think that organizations tend to lose money if you will. But at the same time, research does show and anecdotal evidence does show that you're getting less last minute call outs because of PTO, right.  And that's one of those things you create rapport with your employees. They trust you, you trust them and they're going to use their time off correctly. And when they need to take time off there, they're going to use it you know you don't want people working when when something's going on right like if they have the day they need to take it. Let them take it show relax. I've also seen a lot of unlimited PTO right like I feel like that's starting to trend, which I feel takes us into perk number two that we're going to talk about, which is looking at perhaps a flex schedule and what that might be considered. Um, you know, and I feel like it goes right along with the PTO conversation is the flex of perhaps an early end or a half day starting later, especially so people don't have to hit the, the maniac traffic right like that that we experienced pre COVID and then during COVID so many of us, we didn't have to deal with traffic and so that's a great right. What do you see in this space. Unlimited PTO doesn't seem crazy. I remember when I heard about it a long time ago thinking like oh my goodness, you know that seems crazy but now especially with everyone working from home. You know, if you know I know with my staff they have PTO I got to be honest I don't even track it you know just let me know when you're going away and or when you need a day off and that's it you know they have a certain amount of PTO days but I literally don't track it I hope they're not watching. Okay, so then talk to us about that because what I hear you saying is it's a more of a focus on your output and the work getting done. Do you think that this works better for organize organizations that have a work platform like slack or base camp or something like that. How do you see this being administrated or am I just sharing my age. Oh, I don't know the answer to that question. I just don't know the answer to either of those questions. Well that's good about the age. But I mean do you see what I'm saying is like how do you as a business owner and how does a nonprofit as a as a nonprofit business owner if you will.  I think it goes back to really you know coordinating the times off as as Katie was saying you know earlier in the conversation about that personal time off like we have to share it in advance as much as possible to really prevent those last minute call outs of the day of and really coordinating right like making sure because for me I'm still very much flexible as much as I can be and the job has to get done the mission has to get the programs have to go on. So what does that look like and then how do we coordinate that I certainly know a lot of places are using those online platforms Julia like slack and base camp and whatnot to to just communicate you know what's what's going on and it might be that someone's left to pick up their child from school and they'll be right back you know like 45 minutes an hour tops whatever that looks like. That communication and it brings up for me transparency right transparency and trust we have to be honest about our work schedule who we are what we're doing and sharing something like hey I've got school pickup or I've got a personal doctors appointment. I think that's really important. Yeah, and just to piggyback on that I mean in the companies that I've worked for and how I run my team now I think if you implement the correct processes and procedures in your organization and make everybody want to work. And then you're going to get that accountability from everyone on your team now I know that that's an idealist view, but if we're talking about long term strategy and recruitment and retention, it's a great place to sort of pivot if you're not doing that directly. One thing that I do with my team and the last company I worked for as well is you do have to say when you are going to be out of the office or at a doctor's appointment so you know yes vacation basically the procedure is it goes on everybody's appointment so if Dana is taking off. She invites everyone so we know Dana is off if that's how I'm notified. But you know at the same time if Dana has a doctor's appointment. Dana's out of the office doctors appointment so you know she's not going to do that all the time because the entire staff is going to know that she's constantly taking appointments right so she picks and chooses when she is going to do that because she's going to be held accountable with her team if she's not going to be on the line. So that's how we do it and it seems to have worked so unlimited doesn't sound crazy to me. I'm a small shop, but I think that. Yeah, there's accountability within the truth of what you're doing with your day. No, I appreciate it so much and it really does take us to you know the output really looking the output and one thing you've shared with us Katie and I just want to acknowledge is what our staff is looking for and I feel like they start asking even in an interview process how can we be involved in the community how are we as a culture giving back to those that we are also serving so I feel like one of the perks that you're talking about here perk number three for those of you keeping up with the with the with the numbers opportunities at another nonprofit not the one where we're employed but another nonprofit. Are you seeing this is something that's I'm going to say like closing the deal you know. So I'm not seeing it a lot but I did touch on this the last time I was on the show VTO volunteer time off is essentially a thing and it could be a great way to incentivize your step incentivize your staff to work with other organizations to get them out of the office kind of get them away from the mundane work that they're typically doing and it's kind of exciting you know for you know two or three staff members to go to volunteer at one organization. It could be really fun and you know a team building sort of thing as well so again I'm not seeing it but I love this idea. You know I think it's just such a great way to train as well you know so often in the nonprofit sector we refer out to other nonprofits and a lot of times we do that without really knowing what they do maybe it's just anecdotal oh yeah they serve this population but when you can go to a site or a campus and you can see this work I think it's really smart I really really do and I mean we don't see it enough and I think when we were starting to see it then COVID happened all volunteerism basically in person you know came to a halt so yeah I think it's just such an interesting way to kind of also blend in personal development. Yeah I love that I love the idea of people doing events for other organizations because they can take their ideas back to their events team I feel like this season for me was so busy with events you know I think I went to like nine events between April and August or July which was crazy because I got to see how many of my clients were running events and how they were doing different auctions and golf outings and I felt like it was a super busy summer for me with that but I mean I got so many ideas from it so actually doing that and implementing that into your organization can be great for events for programs whatever it may be. I did want to just jump on you know I am in the New York New Jersey area so here we do have two really awesome organizations Jersey Cares as well as New York Cares and essentially what they do is they are a nonprofit themselves but they manage nonprofit organizations about volunteer calendars so essentially me as someone who wants to volunteer and I really want to volunteer kind of how my schedule allows I can pick and choose based on the weekends based on the borough where I want to volunteer and I pick what I want to do so that's a great way to kind of organize that and have someone put that you know put someone in your organization in charge of that and say hey you know whatever organization needs volunteers this Friday y'all can go it's not a big deal you know you can have an HR person or office manager manage that and that's really cool. I love that idea because events are still evolving because of COVID but one of the things that we're seeing is that sometimes they're not evolving enough folks are just going back to what they did pre pre COVID. And so which I think is a big mistake I think if we got it you know step it up here and do some different things. Yeah. So that's a really cool idea I love love love that you know you always see so many different things because of your work and this is one of the things that we started talking about which makes me want to immediately pack my bags and move to New York because tell us how you use this these free ticket concepts because you're a season ticket holder to two of the premier sports. Yeah, yeah so I love going to events and I love taking my clients to events I'm a big concert person I'm a big sporting events person I love fights so I actually have a partial package to Yankees the free Yankees tickets and I have a full package for Mets tickets. So I give them out to clients or I take my clients with me to the game so it's super cool. But it's a great way to you know motivate staff, you know, immediately right like someone did something really cool, you can't really give them a raise you can't really, you know, even talk about a performance review at that point so how can you on the spot reward them maybe giving them concert tickets or maybe there's like a wine festival or a food festival something like that. Let them choose what they want to do if someone really did something above and beyond. And if you are an nonprofit I understand obviously there's not room in the budget for things like this, but then tapping into your corporate partners and asking them for some sort of support or relationship and I'm sure that they would love to give you tickets they donate them for events. So checking that resource out is always a good idea. And I have to say, often the board members have access to these tickets right and so often they're you know, good point have corporate tickets I've seen this before and just reminding the board members hey, excuse me hey if you have any access to anything or are you yourself have an event coming up that we could invite, you know, some or extend the invitation. I think all of those are great perks and I really every time I've seen it implemented. The staff themselves have been so grateful because otherwise they wouldn't have access to this event or they wouldn't have access to attend whatever meeting or networking luncheon or what have you. And I just think that's fantastic. Most recently we did this at, it was a veterans luncheon, and the board member reached out and said do you have any veterans staff members. And we said, absolutely. And those were the individuals that got to go to the luncheon and it was just, it was really enjoyable, you know, hearing back from the staff themselves that they were so grateful. You know, I think the thing of it is, I hadn't thought of that Katie the the line between the board, because sometimes I think the board members just feel like all they get asked for is to open their checkbook. But you're right, Jared. I mean, the amount of personal, you know, subscriptions to cultural events to sporting events. Oh my gosh, all the way to corporate boxes. It's a box sweet. Yeah, and I mean I know from working with the Yankees I've had a relationship with them for a number of years now they do so much philanthropic work. So they, they're so great with the local schools up in the Bronx, they love to partner with organizations. I'm, I don't work for the Yankees, but you hit them up, they'll give you tickets. Well, we were talking about this in the green room, you know, major sports, they all have really gotten into this path of having foundations. And so this is a big thing for them and they are given blocks of tickets that they have to. What is it 80 to 90 home games in MLB alone? Can you imagine having to get out? It's 80 games. Yeah, they love to get them out. That's a lot. That's a lot to give out, right? Yeah. If you can kind of navigate that, I know that we're coming to the end of MLB, you know, of Major League Baseball, but we have NFL starting, we have NHL and then of course, you know, NBA starting. So yeah, especially weekday day games with baseball, you know, there's always seats there. It's really cool for staff to go. Yeah, it's a wonderful, wonderful thing. Well, I love this approach and I think that I liked what you said, Katie, about sometimes it's not the overall trajectory of somebody's career, but it's something really cool that they did that you want to quickly, you know, acknowledge and support and encourage. And so I love kind of linking this. Yeah, do it. It's it's immediate motivation or immediate reinforcement, I think is a really huge deal. One thing that I will say is, you know, when you look back at your career, you never really remember how much money you made from each year, right? But you do remember the cool experiences you had throughout. And you know, I always say, Dana and I have had a professional relationship since oh five at this point. And whenever we're together and we're with other people, we always talk about our first team party. That wasn't for the company. It was because we had hit a goal with the amount of temps that we had a time. This is literally in 2006. And our manager at the time was able to take everyone and their significant others to this really fancy restaurant. And we had the best time. It was super duper fun. We stayed out so late. The bill was ridiculous. Astronomical. Yeah, but we didn't we don't know because we weren't managers at the time. So it doesn't matter, but we still talk about it to this day that it was just such a great time. I have no idea how much money I made that year. You know, but Dana and I will forever remember that. And that experience, it means so very much. Thank you for sharing that I know that's always a really great opportunity. I want to sadly we're moving, you know, into our final time with you but I want us to talk about the fifth perk that you've brought up to us today Katie which is personal development shadowing of other leaders. And I have to say the only time I've had the option to do this is because I was going through a leadership program. And that was a requirement. Right. And so I've not seen this as a perk within the confines if you will of an employment situation only for a leadership track outside of the job. So, are you seeing this more and more this the shadowing of other leaders. I've seen it. I don't see it often. I think that we did speak about this the last time I was on as well about, you know, having employees in your organization and keeping them engaged with the organization and letting them try out different roles within the same organization. And doing that, I think that's a really cool experience, especially if you're talking about like recent college grads, doing that shadowing that's super fun, because you know you talked to recent college grads and you're they're like, I don't know I like finance I don't know I like fundraising like I don't know, you know, I really just like to put my head down and do that base work. So allowing them to figure out that way I think that that's really cool for PD. Yeah, I think it's a really good idea and I think it kind of fits into the concept of cross training, keeping people in. I think there's a lot of frustration when you are young and you're like, what is the projected track. And if you look around and you're like, there's no way I can move up in this organization. It's easier to start looking somewhere else and you started off with, you know, having a retention policy. Man, if we ever needed to be looking at that, how do we retain young talent, so that they'll grow with us and for us right. Yeah. And that's really this is really important. And I think having a mentorship program is something that could be really cool to for an organization, just having you know, more seasoned staff members are the certain ones on whatever sort of group or however you want to phrase it for the organization and then they can work with anyone that's, you know, within hired within the past six months and just sit down with them take them to lunch whatever it may be quarterly. Let them ask questions why do we do it that way and what are our fundraising goals etc I think that that's a really cool.  Yeah, no, I love that and I think that's I think that's healthy for the organization. Okay, now we've got one last thing. And this is probably really one of those things that happens more towards the end of the year Q for when we start looking at gift cards. I know I've been on boards where the board members were asked to bring, you know, five gift cards from Target or another big box store to the next board meeting and then they were putting envelopes, you know, to staff and stuff like that. What do you see with this and is that something that's passé or is it still something that can move forward.  No, I remember Julia. In fact, I mean, it was a while ago that I was, you know, working for this organization, but we had a great sponsorship with a local grocery store. And every single staff member, based off of where you were essentially in the org chart, got a certain denomination gift card for the grocery store. It was given to us in December. And it was wonderful because you know it really did help with those extra grocery purchases that happen usually along that time as well. And I just remember thinking that was such a great, you know, gift because it's certainly going to get used and it never sat in a drawer. And you generally when you go into that, you know, supermarket or whatever, you're spending more money, you're not generally spending to that amount. So it does cultivate another form of business I think for those partners, but I think that's a really important thing. And I think, you know, to go and solicit that or to navigate that is a really, really good thing. You need to start doing it now. Yeah. But I think, you know, to Katie's point, how do you have something that you can actually communicate gratitude and encouragement that can happen with that type of a gift card. It's really.   So, you know, I don't think we touched upon it on the second slide but, you know, staggering your work day, you know, for my team, Dana starts later and she works later. Dana starts earlier she her day short and that her and day ends at four o'clock Dana works till about six so we kind of work within each other's schedule so doing that for the person who has four kids that are on four different baseball teams like how do we accommodate that person, you know, as opposed to the person that sings opera at night, or is the musician at night and would prefer to start her day at 11 or his day at 11 right. So, how can you accommodate within that is a big is a big way to so just asking. That's so needed but again like Katie you've come to us over the last four years with so much insight as to how the workforce is ever evolving.  And if you joined us late that's okay you can go back and listen to the previous ones, but really great perks that you shared with us that shouldn't break the bank right they shouldn't cost an arm and a leg for this. But again, those of you that have joined us either by video or audio only, we have had the luxury of Miss Katie Warnock joining us today Katie is the CEO and the founder of staffing boutique. So grateful each and every month to have you are Dana joining us Katie to really continue this conversation as we continue to evolve day in and day out. Thanks for having you know it's a lot of fun and Katie like I said I feel like you're part of that crystal ball. We've got us information before maybe a lot of other things that we start sensing a change or things that we need to change. And in the nonprofit sector we are our people I mean that's that's where we have to really focus is who we bring to the table so that we can achieve our mission vision and values. I'm Julia Patrick CEO of the American nonprofit Academy been joined today by Jared Ransom the nonprofit nerd herself. She's my nonprofit nerd but she can be yours too. Hey, again we have amazing presenting sponsors they include Bloomerang American nonprofit Academy your part time controller nonprofit thought leader fundraising Academy at National University. Staffing boutique yay one of the very first sponsors that we had nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk. These are the folks that join us day in and day out. And as Katie brings us these messages of where we need to be with our teams and our staff. It's really an amazing thing to see how it's changed and how it's evolved. But one thing that hasn't changed is our sign off and it goes like this. Remember to stay well so you can do well. All right ladies thanks so much.


Hey guys, welcome back to The Nova Show, it's your host, International Nova and in today's episode we'll have another freedom partner spotlight and some cool music news, so let's get to it. Pop star Kesha and her lawsuit against Sony Records and longtime producer Dr. Luke has turned pretty ugly. Kesha's mom recently went on a Twitter rant calling out Dr. Luke and calling Kesha's obligations to Sony slavering. Now through the tweets Kesha's mom also stated that she's worried that due to the delay in the case Kesha's career might be over before the case is settled. Now in other news, tight dollar sign has just released a brand new single called LA which features Kendrick Lamar, Brandy and James Fontleroy. Now the song is the newest single off its new album, the free TCLP, due out in November 13th. You can also stream the song by clicking the link down below, let me know what you guys think. In other news, Facebook has just released a brand new music feature. Now the feature is called Music Stories and works like this, any song that is posted on Facebook through a link or through the share on Facebook button within Spotify or Apple Music will appear in news feeds in 30 second clips. Now the only downfall of the feature is that it's only compatible at the moment with iOS users. Now through the feature if fans find the music interesting enough you can actually add the song to your streaming services within Facebook. Now in the past, Facebook's last music feature which actually tracked your sign pod activity was not received too well, so let's see how this one turns out. Hey guys so we're back and as you can see we're back in my home studio, now today's freedom partner Spotlight goes to a member by the name of Rick Getem, so let's go ahead and check him out. So Rick I want to say you got some good production, some really cool beats and a couple of different styles. I really do like where you're going with your production and you got some really really great potential. Now what I will say is just like I've said in a couple episodes you want to make sure that as a producer you have your music everywhere. Now looking at your page I couldn't find your social media and that is one thing I do recommend is have as much social media links as possible on your profile. As a producer use the social media tools available such as Vverb Nation, SoundClick, SoundCloud and Get Your Music Heard. Now as far as the production itself there are a few things I would recommend and as always with me it starts with the EQ. You want to make sure you take the time to EQ all of your instruments, all of your samples and get them to sound as clean as possible. As a producer you want to make sure that all of your tracks sound nice, clean and polished. So take some time out, focus on your instruments, you want to make sure your snares are nice and tight and with the kicks you want to make sure it sounds heavy not too much where it swallows your whole track but nice, crisp and tight as well. Now another trick that I would recommend is adding a vocal exciter to your instruments. Now by adding a vocal exciter to your instruments this actually adds life to your mix as well as giving your track a bounce. Now aside from these two things you also want to work on adding compression as well as adding reverb to give your tracks space and presence in the mix. Now as a side note don't be afraid to pan some of your instruments, everything doesn't always have to be in the middle. Now as with everything in music mastering is very important and lucky for you guys as beat partners or potential beat partners we provide mastering for free. So if you guys are interested in joining Beat please click on the link below. I want to see you guys there. Now guys as always you can go ahead and click the SoundCloud link below. Head over to my SoundCloud page and use my music, use my labels music for free on your videos. Now that's it for today's episode of The Nova Show. Thank you for tuning in. Until next time you guys take care.