We do have a quorum, so we will proceed. I'd like to ask I'd like to bring up the The agenda and I'd like to make myself a motion to amend the agenda and That motion is to add an item under commission business The item is related to the job description for the assistant director for the alternative response program and an intervention by City Council president Karen Paul I'd like to make that at 645 time certain so that president Paul can be here and Lacey Ann Smith has said that she will join us and so Muhammad if you would be looking for her And in fact email and send her the zoom link and let her in So that she can participate in that discussion. Great. Thank you So I'd like to make that motion would there be a second to that motion Thank you commissioner Oskie and any other discussion any other amendments to the agenda Seeing none. I'd like to take that to a vote all those in favor of the amended agenda, please say aye any opposed passes unanimously The next item of business is to approve you approve the minutes to the Commission meeting from March 28th Is there a motion to? Accept those minutes Thank You commissioner Oskie and if also if you may want to turn on your microphone Go ahead. Is it not working? Thank you very much in a second. I second that Commissioner Rouse seconds all those in favor All those opposed any opposed passes unanimously. Thank you the Next item is public forum Muhammad. Do we have are there any members of the public that have indicated? They would like to speak Anybody here present would like to please feel free to come up to the mic So online we have Dave mahir. He wants to speak. Okay. Thank you. I'll allow you to speak right now Hi there. This is Dave March. Should I go ahead? Yes, Dave. Thank you very much. Appreciate it First I want to thank all of you for all the hard work you do I don't know me. My name is Dave Maher. I've been in the Brogdon area for just about 50 years I currently reside in the New North End and As you know, the City Council will be working over the next several months to establish a police oversight board And that got me thinking and I have an idea. I'd like to float And my idea is to create a peer review board within the police department Which would be the first step in addressing any excessive use of force incidents The board might consist of several senior police officers Perhaps someone from human resources and perhaps someone from the police union The details to be worked out, but this is an overall concept that I'm proposing The board would review all incidents Of excessive force and propose this disciplinary action if they feel it's warranted This could either be a binding decision or a recommendation to the police chief Again a detail to be worked out Whatever action is taken could then be appealed to the city's oversight board once it's established I think that a peer review board has several advantages One is any disciplinary action will have been reviewed by a number of individuals experienced in police work As opposed to just people off the street I think it'll reduce the number of incidents that are referred to the uh citizen oversight board And I think it can probably be implemented more quickly than the proposed oversight board And might not even need a charter change depending on how it's implemented This is a concept that I'm proposing Obviously needs more detail, but I think it's worth considering. Thank you No, anyone more Okay, all right, thank you So we will move on to the next item on the agenda, which is the chief's report chief mirad's here. Thank you very much for Thank you. And thank you for having me. Um, is this one connected to you as well? Or is this just for the room? Is this going getting to you as well? Or is it just for the room? Great. Thank you Uh, I can hear it. I just wanted to know whether it was one of the Slit around a bit. Um Thank you so much. Uh, and uh, yes, you can see their chief's report here. Uh, if you go to the There's a beautiful day as we took that picture there. First slide. Thank you kids safe collaborative. We, um, honored A colleague in our department, uh, mary mcallister mary mcallister Um, has been with the the department for decades. Uh, she is our domestic violence victims advocate And she was given the lifetime achievement award from the kids safe collaborative And so we we watched that, uh, ceremony from one north avenue Mary was there and watched it from one north avenue and we had an opportunity to tell her exactly how much we appreciate her Uh, as the victims advocate, she is someone who liaises with, um victims Is is a a key part of our, uh, of our ability to serve victims, particularly victims of domestic violence um And is is someone who is is really, uh, has has affected a lot of lives in chittenden county. Uh, People go to her including our domestic violence prevention officer including other police officers She's an integral part of what we are building in cape, uh, which is the the portion of the department Where we are working on social service response in addition to law enforcement response. Um next slide, please Thank you. Um We finished up our fair and impartial policing training. Uh, this slide is is similar to one that was in the previous chief's report last month We divided the entire department into four cohorts, uh, the first two cohorts Each did two days of training last month and the final two cohorts each did two days of training this month Um, and uh, I think that training went well from what I've heard from officers who attended They were, uh, impressed by it. They felt that it was effective. They felt that it was something Uh, that was different than things that we had done before And a lot of people came away knowing things that they had not known prior to this training. Um, there was a, uh, Important collaboration with director Carson of REIB. She attended one of the sessions in this second group of Of classes, um, and I believe that she's contemplating using parts of this in other trainings as well So, you know, if if training that that we, uh, helped initiate that she then helped co-develop and uh, that cpe facilitated becomes something That we can use throughout the city. I think that's all to the good Thank you. Um, so we are, uh, as of today at, uh, 64 total sworn officers of whom, um, 58 are available. It says 59 on the top sentence, but it's actually 58 as it says in the line Uh, so 58 available 26 of them are on patrol, which is a larger number than we've seen for a while Because we got our, our three field training officers, uh, off of field training They graduated and are now full-fledged police officers. And so that's great. Um, to have them out there as full-fledged officers This is something I throw in every single one so that the world out there knows that we are hiring and here's what we're offering to do it Here are some photos of the other roles that we are working on in the department. Uh, you know, that is one of our new cso's pictured there She is uh in all likelihood going to attend the police academy in august But we were able to bring her aboard as a cso now From a new american community. I think she's she's working really really well You'll see one of our other cso's seated on the the bench Um lacy smith has also shown seated on that bench in the sunglasses Um, and then uh, one of our csl's Is there with our uh therapy dog that dog, uh, rocky is a dog that we have He is being trained as a therapy dog is in the csl's with the csl's in the cape office um, and is you know, uh Definitely does a lot of therapy inside the building too as well as with people who are using our services or who are visiting Cape And it was brought to my attention today that that somebody had told I had a a meeting with a city councilor today and somebody had told that councilor that all of our cso's were Uh were white men and that's that's simply not the case. Uh, and I think that picture demonstrates it, you know We're we're working hard on Uh making certain that we hire the right people The right qualified capable Enthusiastic people for these jobs and those people come in all sexes and all Races in all classes And we're bringing those aboard in all roles in the csl role the csl role The dispatcher role and of course our police officer role as well This is our revised priority response plan Which also is something that I put in each one just so that people can see what it is and what it says Those incidents are and here's a picture of incident volume year to date. Um, we are up 33 percent over last year. We're up 42 percent over 2021 But it is prior lower than prior years, but not by much right now We're we're barely lower than 2020 and that puts us back in line with those years 2018 2019 2020 Where the vast bulk of that decrease came from the voluntary reduction of traffic stops Um any the changes between 2018 2019 and 2020 was driven largely by traffic Which you can see in this in this graphic here Where you can see those huge numbers of traffic stops in 18 and 19 and the way they really just plummet And they they were they were already decreasing tremendously, but you know where here we are Three months into the year and and we're talking about 153 stops. That's just not a number more alarming However, is what we see with regard to uh stolen vehicle counts what we see with regard to overdose count You know stolen vehicle is up half Is up 100 from last year and last year was as bad as it had ever ever been By a wide margin Overdose is up, you know More than 200 percent over uh the excuse me 300 percent over the previous year And and that too was it was bad although at this early stage last year hadn't really gone off the rails If we take a look at the next slide We'll see a priority one incidence higher last year was higher than they had been since In several several years this year is already on track to be higher still A good portion of that is driven by overdose, which you'll see in the very next slide Overdoses are are Shocking it is shocking where overdoses are going And this what we see is that last year Really took off in the middle of the year on june 1st. It's a very bright line distinction. It just goes up We don't know why I have not been able to determine what it was that happened at that moment To to cause those to go so shockingly high. They're far far worse this year I mean that trend line if if we don't do something to interrupt that trend line It will be well off of this page. Uh, we will simply have to continually rearrange I mean we're talking about on track for I don't know 800 900 in the year. Uh, that is, you know, uh, absolutely shocking Um next please This uh graphic shows where they're happening Uh in the entire city in the graphic on the left and I we zoom in to the city core To see where they're occurring, uh on the right in that that cut out Um, no surprise we see a lot in the vicinity of downtown burlington city hall park the Garages in the vicinity of city hall park on king street on college street The municipal parking garage on college between college and and and and cherry There are Excuse me bank and cherry. There are, uh, you know several locations where that's happening And that is it although there was an element to this report, uh that commissioner rauw requested which had to do with, um Our our media policy and our press releases You know, this was a press release. We put I put out the chief's report each month in a press release But the question was primarily about, uh press releases based on incidents and and how we arrive at those and and what I explained um was that our You know, we do have a pio that pio joined the police department in february Is doing great work getting her feet under her, uh, and already a really valuable addition to the team um, but what we put out is dictated in part by bandwidth and in part by you know The severity of the incident whether we feel that it occasioned a certain amount of public interest or not Um, and whether or not we're looking for somebody for example, uh, there are, uh, you know other Some agencies basically put out a press release for every single arrest That's not something that we can maintain even with a pio. Uh, it's simply not going to be something that we can do Um in the past we have not always been as quick to do the releases as as possible It was primarily I or lieutenant, uh, michael henry who were writing those press releases um, and uh, I have other duties that might interrupt between being able to write one and put it out, uh Lieutenant henry as well if lieutenant henry is the actual officer in charge on a shift It actually at a scene that requires that is that rises to the level of having a press release Uh, he's got a lot of other things he needs to do before he goes back to the office and writes that press release It is in fact probably his his last Order of business is to write that release and and put it out there. Um, but he is the one who really And I I credited him for it. Um picked up the pace of our press releases in 2021 to some people's consternation But I think to the overall Uh, you know good of the public to understand the volume and types of incidents that we were seeing Uh, we do still want to do that. Um, we certainly want to be able to uh, have less time in between incident and press release Uh, similarly we want to be able to do press releases on more incidents And I think that the pio is going to allow us to do that But she too has other duties that she's you know working on as well Including the public coordination part of her title. Uh, she is the community engagement coordinator And so there's there's other rules there and she's working closely with our redaction specialist to, uh, do actual, uh, to do work as well as redaction and she does work on those redactions She's the voice that you now hear on the use of force that we the use of force that we make public and put up on youtube Um, but she also works with the redaction specialist to some of the some of the photos that you saw in this chief's reporter mine The landscaping ones outdoors the ones of uh, cso's and officers in the field are her and so the redaction specialist and the pio Are out there trying to to get some Art and imagery and to be able to tell stories that aren't just about our press releases in our incidents Um, but are also about the things that we are doing and endeavoring to do in order to serve the community better They're working right now on a project about cape and the csl's And you know, I'm looking forward to seeing that they did a terrific project on our use of force tactical training The physical training that we do for jujitsu interviews with officers inside Put that video up I think it's a really good video for people to watch not only because it shows the tactics that we train on But because it shows the department that is uh, that is doing well internally You had a lot of people in that who were who were happy to be in this agency Happen to be working with one another and I thought that it was a good Representation of why people should come work for this agency And that's what we want to be able to do as well to to do work that we can use to both regrow rebuild and Connect better with the community Yes, so commissioner com Mike's first question is What are the strategies you're considering? For the overdoses second question is what how do you account for the large increase in stolen vehicles? I think they're part and parcel. I think they are they're intimately connected You know our burglaries are we're up last year. They're not up this year compared to last year But they're up way compared to previous years Ditto larceny aggregated larceny is up And again, you know, even if this year might be a little bit up or down from last year last year Was so tremendously different than previous years. I don't carry retail theft on this chart But it is also changed from previous years all of those are part and parcel to the same basic underlying needs Not every single car theft is a car theft by somebody who suffers from substance use disorder Not every single larceny is somebody who suffers from substance use disorder, but a predominant number of them are You know, what are we doing? We are not We're not doing much in the way of enforcement for these kinds of acts anymore We have as a community decided that we do not arrest people from your use or or possession We have as a as a function of both the pandemic and I think choices made at the court level and state level We do not put people through the system for these issues We do not jail much less incarcerate Um, and I did a distinction there between holding somebody in jail and actually putting them in prison Treatment court is is significantly full. Uh, there are you know There are fewer options for some of these kinds of issues and The the general focus that is, you know, if you can go back actually mohammed to the the The table There thank you. So, you know with overdose there It doesn't really show up here because this is only as of april 15 But if we were to look at the year end total that was in our year end report that we put out in january What you would see is overdose numbers In the 70 I want to say it was for 2017 Because the last years showed 2017 not 2018 And I believe that you then saw 50s for 18 and 19. So 70 for 2017 50 for 2018 and 2019 And then it began to climb it climbed into 100 and then High hundreds and then the 200s for 2022 and that climb for overdose and these are not fatal overdoses These are just overdoses I We are so understaffed on supervisors that I worked the midnight shift last week on a wednesday into a thursday Had to respond to a fatal What we call an untimely all deaths are considered untimely in our categorization system Whether it is a person who is 106 and was it was you know lived a full life And there's nothing untimely about that passing or whether it is a child who dies They are all considered untimely as we responded to an untimely at four in the morning It was just me and one police officer. That was the entirety of the coverage for the city We responded to that I have every reason to believe it was an overdose based on statements that were made Based on history of the persons involved, but we won't call that an overdose death until the me rules on that and does a Talks so that's going to be weeks to months away And that's carried as an untimely not as an overdose these overdoses are things to which we respond in the vast majority There may be one or two in there that that had a death associated and somehow remained an overdose not an untimely But it would be very very few these are going to be incidents in which officers respond They get there to the scene most often before fire does And before other emergency services do They administer Narcan or maybe somebody else has already done so friends There's lots and lots of Narcan in our in our community now, which is a good thing That person usually is revived in one way or another More often than not if revived by the Narcan because sometimes somebody's encountered who isn't actually You know they they are they don't they're not Narcan. They're they're breathing a passerby thought them to be an overdose They probably have had some kind of of drug experience But they may not be overdosing in a medical sense and that person is woken and roused and will leave on his or her own But when you actually interrupt an overdose via Narcan Often as not the person is quite angry at the people that have interrupted that We'll give some expletives to the officers or or medical personnel involved and leave We attempt to have a csl Interdite with each of those and connect with the person Assuming that we get even assuming the person's still on scene or that the csl can arrive or in a timely fashion Assuming that we know who it was that we get an id But we we don't have the ability to to compel anything from that individual because we are considering that To be arrestable once upon a time it was once upon a time It was assumed that there was going to be possession involved Maybe the possession was entirely inside the system by that point, but sometimes it wasn't there was another piece of You know, uh, there another amount of drug somewhere on the person Uh, it was certainly reasonable suspicion or to assume that that was the case and we would undertake to detain the individual Identify the individual and potentially arrest the person. I believe that in some of those instances arrest would lead to Compelled treatment that was to the person's benefit, but that is not what we currently do And and largely that is what we want. I don't want to start re arresting people merely for for suffering from this disease But we are seeing huge numbers of it. Uh, I think that there are aspects to that increase that are not merely the That that also have to do with The fact that the drugs that are currently being used Result in the belief that overdose has occurred more often than they used to heroin by itself tends to create if If it creates a full overdose then people are frightened by what happens and that you can see that a person is overdosing But if a person uses and doesn't overdose it creates a kind of Sleepy stupor a person who stands and almost cannot fall down that does not occasion public calls for overdose A person in a in an in an area where that is is common or where they see it in new york city on the subway For example, if you see someone who appears to have used heroin you don't call that an overdose You just say that's somebody who's clearly, you know using heroin right now The drugs that we see now tend to cause situations that go beyond that that go to collapse and and shallow breathing and Symptoms that are are more shocking to both friends and passerby and cause that call to happen more often I don't think that we are going to see nearly A commensurate rise in fatalities as we have with overdoses and that's a good thing right good gosh if we see A commensurate rise in fatalities the way we are seeing with overdose that will be absolutely shocking and horrific But I don't feel that we are seeing that yet I'm not seeing that in calls again I I did go to one just the other night that I have every reason to believe was a fatality driven by overdose but I'm not seeing the degree of increase in those kinds of calls that we have seen with regard to overdose calls So maybe there is an element to these new drugs that is not That is not causing the same level of fatality By ratio and I want to be cleared by rate because I do think our numbers are going to go up I don't think that our numbers can't go up when the overdose numbers are this Precipitously higher. I don't know that precipitously higher is right, but this you know shockingly higher That said uh, it is you know these the drugs that are are more prevalent now have to be used more often they uh do as I said cause more alarming symptoms that that that appear to be overdose And you know we some of the treatment methods that we're showing efficacy against opioids Are not showing as much efficacy against these drugs So there's a whole A whole host of challenges that are arrayed in front of us as we look at this data But you know A new focus on it is absolutely necessary that you know that chart is shocking. I'm sorry commissioner Quick question. Um What percentage of the cars are recovered? I hear stories from other places like near ports where they steal cars and they drive them on to Containerships and they're gone. I heard here that it's mostly like joyriding and sleeping in cars Do do people get their cars back? Thanks for that question and i'm sorry for having lost the thread on the previous question Which had to do with other crimes like larceny, etc Our car thefts are almost entirely recovered the notion of cars that are recovered with some sort of You know manipulation of the steering column that indicates it was quote unquote hot wired to use the older terms Or that has a screwdriver sort of you know wedged into the key Slot is is infinitesimal the number of cars that disappear to be shipped off to you know Port south in new york or north in montreal and then taken someplace else Also infinitesimal these vehicles are recovered. They are recovered in states of oftentimes What the insurer will consider to be a total? Not because of external damage to the car, although that happens too. We do recover these at crash sites but because people vomit and defecate and use narcotics inside them they are filled with needles and the detritus of of human suffering and The recovering owner Infrequently wants the car Frequently calls and doesn't know what to do about how what do I do with all this stuff in the car? Sometimes expects the police to come and recover it as evidence, which it is not Um The number of cars that we've dealt with being stolen at this point means that we don't we don't take those as evidence Of a crime at this point the state's attorney has made it very clear that we have a very high hurdle to clear in order to call it a stolen vehicle You know vermont doesn't really have a stolen vehicle Statute it sort of does but mostly doesn't they call it operating without an owner's consent Uh Many other states do grand larceny auto is actually a separate category of the seven majors Across the country with regard to tracking major crime by the fbi We can't even track that because these aren't most of these are not considered grand larceny auto They're considered what other states might call unauthorized use. Um, or as we call it operating without an owner's consent They are oftentimes, you know, the state's attorney has said that that she believes oftentimes these are being used to live in and As a result even if certain hurdles are cleared to prove that the individual Found in a recovered car is also the individual who stole that car because that's what we have to do It merely being in the car is not proof and a driver of a stolen vehicle who has stopped and turns to the officer and says Oh, I got this from my friend dave dave. Who I don't know dave's last name. That's enough We no longer have enough to call that uh to charge that person for for possession of the car We we keep the car, of course. We don't let the person drive away in the car if it's known to be stolen Um, the person may very well have other crimes that he or she is is wanted for or warrants or conditions of release from previous instances But in so far as the car theft, you know, we have to be able to say this is the person who took it And that takes a lot of evidence that we're not developing on most of these cases Um But she has said that, you know, if a person is living in a car, uh, what are we supposed to do about that? How are we supposed to address that? My position is that the the you know, these cars are oftentimes the only thing the people who have them have These these are necessary for people to get to work These are necessary for people to to live the lives that we have in in the 21st century Um, and they are being denied these and and furthermore oftentimes denied in a way that Permanently denies it mere recovery is not enough to get that car back. It's done Um, and and we have to do something about that as a community A portion of this however is this the majority probably the vast majority Are cars that are stolen because keys have been left in them and or the vehicle has been left running And the people of of chitin and county in burlington have to stop doing that I do not want to blame victims. It is not victims fault that these happens This is because unscrupulous people may be driven by by disease and desperation But unscrupulous people make a choice to commit a crime and take someone else's property. That's who does this But there is an element that is being caused by the fact that we as a community have long thought that we can get away With leaving our cars unlocked or keys in them or leaving our doors unlocked And we have for decades This chart tells us it is not working anymore At least not with regard to cars and to a certain extent with regard to property in the form of larceny We have about thank you 10 more minutes before Um president paul will be here, but I think there are several more questions for you chief mirad I have a few i'm gonna see if any of my other commissioners here do Okay, great One of my questions is with regard to comm stat So number of years ago comm stat was used extensively to address the opioid epidemic Is that not a vehicle that could help us today? And I recognize that's not entirely the bpds purview, but just oh not not not not entirely but hardly at all I mean we attend, uh, I think that certainly, you know, then chief del pozo had an integral role in in creating it Um at the time it was run by jackie corbeli who was in the police department Uh, she's now working for us on a part-time basis getting the crisis team on on up and running Um, so very glad to have jackie back, but she's not working in this capacity Comm stat is now run. Um out of a different part of the city Uh, I I try to attend on a regular basis. Um, but you know, I think as with many things The the inability to meet in person, um for a long period of time, uh, the the fact that that many of the the key participants were Burdened tremendously by by crises du jour that overweight that outweighed this although I think that what has happened is the urgent has crowded out the important We have so many things that are urgent and we are losing sight of what's important, which is this But it's not it is I could it be You know with with a Significant application in fact the final component of a comm stat process which was invented by My mentor bill bratton, um and jack maple who was his primary strategist at the nypd in the early 90s The final component is relentless follow-up Um, and and I think that on some level We we were we have not been as adept at the relentless follow-up as we once were when it comes to issues that came out of comm stat Who has addressed this specific person? We have this overdose. What was the the story behind it? We have a fatal overdose who among us in this large group of people all of us Stakeholders none of us singularly responsible and none of us pointing fingers at the other Who among us had a touch of this individual? When did we touch this individual? What did we do when we touched this individual? What could we have done differently or better or next time? How can we prevent somebody else? Their photo and their name from being at the front end of this comm stat process Because that was a component of it was to look at the faces of the lost You know I those are all things that do remain within the purview of that process It's proven to be effective The the criminal you know the crime change across america is because of comp stat from the 90s into the 2000s and early 2010s and Stat as a process has been used in innumerable different venues beyond just crime and beyond I think what was really genius about what the mayor did was making it not about an inter Excuse me an intra agency process, but making an inter agency process with a lot of different stakeholders Thanks Um when you mentioned that there are different drugs now than heroin. What drugs are we talking about the fentanyl? But it's being combined with street drugs That you know including certain kinds of things that are meant for animals things that are are meant for Other kinds of use and it's being diluted in ways that are are different We're also seeing a good deal of of crystal methamphetamine So meth is prevalent in the community. It doesn't really cause those overdose numbers as much Although it can in some instances cause some of the symptoms that can it can result in a person sleeping in public In a way that might occasion a passerby to call about it But it's not the same overdose. It's certainly not the same overdose with the immediate dire medical consequences in general As either fentanyl or or heroin. That's not to say that you cannot fatally overdose on on meth You can but it's a different process Um, I see president paul is here if you'll just indulge us five more minutes just a couple more questions And we are going to stick to the 645 time With regard to the um The training with cpe. It sounds like it was a very positive Experience and wondering if we you could share the training materials with the commission Uh, I mean I can ask cpe about that, but I don't see any reason why not And just curious about what are you is there a follow-up to this? Do you have continued plans for training with them? Uh At the time being no although there have been some individual training plans for individual officers Uh, john monahan who is one of the instructors from cpe has a number of of sort of wellness initiatives for officers And and I think those may be appropriate for specific officers. I don't know that there are things, you know Uh Getting the getting the entire department to do two days of training is an incredible logistical hurdle. It's a massive logistical hurdle There uh, you know, we were in the midst of some other kinds of of operations. That is, you know, patrol based operations Uh, where I had two or even three officers available for those operations because of the fact that we were sending everybody to training instead But that's the trade-off that we we currently make so Getting the the wellness things that john has suggested for everybody is is not likely For a couple of different officers perhaps officers who can bring back some techniques to share with other officers Uh, I do think that that's something that we're we're looking into And those but but I to be honest, I don't know whether those are specifically cpe related or those are things that john monahan himself sort of works on and does And uh, in so far as, you know further training. This is our fip training for For this year and for next we don't do it again from the state's perspective until 2025 But we do have to do a training on systemic systemic oppression issues again in 2024 So what will that be? My hope is that that reib is going to have developed training by that point that is Applicable to shift workers the challenge that we the reason we created this training was that reib did not create shift based Training before it suffered certain staffing changes that made that sort of made that fall apart My Myself and other non sworn non shift employees in the department did do reib's training last year that they put to the First round of it. I'm hopeful that there's going to be another round of it developed And that that will probably be what we do in 2024, but it remains to be seen How would how will you deal with new officers in terms of Fip training they get it at the academy as a component of their academy training Okay, great Just one quick final question is is does the department have a media policy that guides The content and type of incidents that are reported That are reported you mean in the form of press release. Yeah, uh, we have a media policy There's some stuff about that talks about what kinds of incidents go out But it's not prescriptive in the sense of saying every single aggravated assault or every single x I'd have to find that directive. It has something to do with the idea of what I said before sort of severity of incident Whether or not it seems to have occasioned public concern Etc. Would you mind Having perhaps Shannon Tremol send us a copy of that or a link to that. Yeah, great. Thank you It is 642 three minutes early. I'm going to invite President Paul up to the microphone and while she's Coming lacy and smith is with us as well So for just for those who are watching and for members of the audience The commission received from the mayor's office a job description For the position of assistant director of alternative Chief mirad, what is the rest of that alternative crisis? No, it's the assistant director of alternative response And I I don't know that that title is necessarily the one that we're going to use There are some counselors who have expressed a desire for us to explore something different But that is what it currently says in both the memo that went to the board of finance last night and the The draft job description assistant director of alternative response. Thank you. So the mayor's office had sent Me a copy of that job description and asked for input on it We had thought there was a very short timeline for responding to that And it became I became aware of the fact that we actually Some changes have been made to the alternative crisis response Program that is being imagined and in loot in light of that it felt like Are any comments we provide would benefit from an update on what is happening So for at least for myself, for example, we understood that Howard center put in an rfp for this program But that the nature of that the structure of that has changed So I felt that it would be useful for us to have that update from president paul and lacyan and the chief The job description the draft job description is on board docs under commissioner comments for those who would like to look at it And once we hear this I'll try to develop a mechanism for us to provide another round of comments To the mayor's office on the job description if necessary. And so I with a great deal of thanks to president paul who is Attends way too many meetings and to lacyan who is not supposed to be working this week. I deeply appreciate it I'm going to invite president paul first to update us and then invite lacy And I think I want to add that Several commissioners had questions about that job description and concerns I spoke to lacy about them But I do think that's an opportunity for commissioners to directly ask questions of lacy herself here And I think the public would benefit from hearing those responses. So president paul. Thank you Thanks very much and good evening commissioners I'm actually to to a large degree here to answer questions I'll just provide the background of what happened yesterday So you're sort of completely up to speed on exactly what's going on Last week. This has been a very Fluid situation regarding the what is what we all refer to as the cahoots program And that is that you are correct Commissioner saguino that there was an rfp that was done The howards center responded to it To make a long story short the The howards center is not in a position according to Conversations that have been had with them recently to really truly prioritize this program And we've waited now for two years For this program this program was brought to our attention by two parents Shea totten and robin freedom reguire who have very patiently and consistently advocated for this program and It's been an evolving process, but we're now at the point where we have the funding So usually Usually the stumbling buck is we don't have the funding We do have the funding and in great in in great measure to the fact that the city council And the in the mayor's budget allocated $450,000 I believe it was last year which rolled over into this year and Certainly a great A great feat And a lot of work done by the mayor to secure the the other remainder of the funding from the state The uvm medical center is a is a is a strong advocate in this They are way they are totally on board with with this with this with this program In order for us to be able to have the program work in the way that we had envisioned it Which one of the key components as you may recall is that we wanted to make sure that Just like we like data from the police department. We want the data We want to know how this program, you know, we want to be able to measure success Um and be able to measure progress and you can't do that without data The Howard center was not um Was not willing to share that data with us. And so that was a that was also a stumbling block Fast forward a couple of days. This has literally been a couple of days Um and lacy can certainly speak to this Far better than I can There has been a new development a new way of approaching this That will get this on board much more quickly And it will mean that the uh, the program will be housed within the city of burlington For a number of reasons. Um, I think there's a great deal of Optimism that these positions can be filled mostly due to the hard hard work of lacy and also jackie corbely And we can get this up and running because right now there's like we don't want to hear any more Reasons explanations about why this program hasn't started yet And this is the way to really get it up and going plus. We will have all of the data Um, the other thing also is that the mayor and I both met with um, Shea Tottenham and Robin Frieden McGuire late last week Um, they are supportive of this direction to a large degree because they also want to see It get going And they feel confident that it will be it will be a successful program housed within the city of burlington So that's where the cahoots Program is that won't be called the cahoot won't be called cahoots, but you all know what i'm talking about um at the lat at the meeting last night at the board of finance meeting and in Conversations leading up to that meeting it became clear that despite the fact that there was It because of the fact that it's been very quickly moving There were people that haven't that didn't hear that conversation And although it is a small component of the overall job description It is nonetheless a component of the of the job description And when you were given the job description, we didn't we didn't know This because it hadn't happened yet, but it has happened now. And so There was a strong desire to have the police commission Way in on the job description now that you know What we know what we all know so we all know the same thing and um So that's where we are But you know the work that has been done to bring this forward has really been on the part of jackie corbally and Lacey and lacey is here. I'm going to guess on vacant when she's not supposed to be So I don't want to I don't want to take all of this away From her and let her speak to this as well because it's been some amazing work Lacey, can you fill us in a bit? So what will the new structure be? If the Howard center is not going to take the leading role So the real change is that ultimately the Position that is going to that is considered to be the assistant director position Was really just going to be facilitating the relationship If it was going to be with an outside entity and overseeing the advisory committee that comes along with the Direction of of the cares team, which is what we're calling the team. So it's gonna is cares And I don't remember what cares stands for so I can't write a let off quite yet It is great and that was the chief So uh Because of the fact that Howard center is no longer going to be the contracted Uh partner in the city is taking it on the assistant director position is going to essentially be overseeing the team itself as the super Supervising that the structure of the team as well as maintaining the relationships with the advisory board And uh with uvm mc. So it's just really The relationship was already there the what changes is really kind of just the the degree of Detail and supervision that what did exist? I you know just um If you'll if it's okay, maybe lacy you could just sort of describe For those who aren't aware the advisory that that layer of oversight and what will what that advisory board will be Yeah, so the advisory board is um by way of recommendation of uvm mc And it ultimately is set up to really be um Pull in community stakeholders To not only be reviewing data, but really making sure that the kind of mission and spirit of what we are trying to attempt with this team is Is we're saying true to that so we'll be looking at incidents when law enforcement is involved both from the perspective of um the team having to call them out as well as if the team responds and they are already on scene Um and just making sure that again that the reasons and why these relationships and these things are happening fall true to what we believe is the mission of this of this team So it will be made up of multiple community stakeholders to include um at least one individual um that is just uh quote unquote citizen um with Life experience really great Thanks, and I had asked you this question, but I wonder if you could uh for the sake of everybody What's the difference between cape and cares? So those are both acronyms. I'm sorry. I don't know the words to go with either, but uh Perhaps you can enlighten us Yeah, so cape is really the social services The social services that currently exist within the police department. So that is the csls The joint position with the uh community justice center the victim services specialist position the dv police officer the victim advocate Um, and we also have the data person that spends part time at over at the building We are all housed in one wing of the department Um, and rocky. Sorry. He's an important member of the team. So care rocky is the therapy talk. Sorry um so uh The cares team is really expected to be kind of for the most part Oh, sorry about the camera Is expected. Sorry. I know it's awful um The the team itself is expected to be Really existing out into in the community They they will have an area that they will obviously be able to have a desk at But we want them to be as mobile as possible So the integral part of the team will also be the van and having the van That they will have everything that they need to be able to triage from within that That vehicle Um, and so they will have a home base, but the intention is for it to really not um Be utilized in the same sort of way as um a team whose Job might consist of a little bit more administrative duties like the like the csls Let me ask commissioners if you have any questions for president paul or lacy smith commissioner cummerford the microphone and This is for our president What was the initial intent of having it at howard center? What were we trying to what was our goal there? They were going to be doing The On the street on the street this work directly We were going to have a contract with them Where i'm going with this is organizational culture All right, so that in my mind there's some real differences between police culture and organizational culture Um, which is one of the reasons i thought it was great that it was going to be at howard center But i think we have to think through this and this is also for you lacy next the same the same issue and also the chief They're really different organizational cultures And so I think that's really important in terms of going forward. I don't have an answer Now that howard center's off the table, but i'd like you to speak to that a little bit I mean i'm happy to try to uh, you know the um I think that's one of the reasons why the creation again, you know, this is not my job description But um, I think one of the reasons why i am supporting the job description and the position is that um I think that you're right that it it it should be a non um a I would say non sworn, but i'm more thinking a civilian position Um, and i'm hoping it will be someone who is a you know a social a social worker as someone who has a degree in social work and understands the differences and You know the the cahoots program has been incredibly successful So successful that a lot of other communities have modeled after it Um, and part of that was because it was Separate although it did have it did go through dispatch um, and others you know, i'm sure the chief can speak to this much better than i can um, but uh It is you know, we live in a small town And there was only one response. Um, I think the howard center has got a large number of their own Things going on and it wasn't going to be a priority. And so um, I think having the advisory board Will be that added layer of hopefully assurance that we are getting a culture that is indicative of the culture that we want Did we check out the medical center and ask them if they would host? They um now i'm trying to remember and lacey you can remind me there are two teams One of which will be a person Deployed by the medical center is isn't is that right? i'm trying to remember there were two teams um And I saw it once so maybe you can or maybe the chief can speak to that So the intention with uvm mc currently is that we will be doing cost sharing because we feel like a nurse having a nurse be a part of the team is really Um extremely valuable and we have someone that is actively already doing community medicine, which is really um a Especialty, I would say within the medical field. It's definitely not the same as working in four walls so That was we the clinician position specifically was not originally part of the conversation With uvm mc. It was really specifically just around the nurse And so howard center Originally with the clinician position was really just to be about the supervision of the clinician And that was the nature of the relationship there um I would say I have a I have a couple of thoughts in terms of culture um I think that I mean, I have opened I have opened in an extent of the invitation to both stepney and others around to come and see and experience what it is to work In the cave office. I think it would also be beneficial for folks to be able to talk to the csl team and see what they think without me there without any of the others there around what the culture is working within Um under my supervision. Um, I work with A lot of howard center employees um I came from howard center. I would just say that I think that they're um That culture differs depending upon the department depending upon the team leader depending upon All of it. It is extremely variable so To say that just the organization as a whole provides a certain degree of culture I think it's a little bit more nuanced than that um and And I will also say that like in terms of hiring. I Have not had The issues that I often hear spoken about on a regular basis in terms of hiring I have had more than enough qualified candidates. I have More way more I'm denying people based on like I I'm we've gotten very lucky in terms of There are people that are interested in doing this work and That I have a list for one position and so I I do think that That that there is a lot of kind of Assumption in terms of what it's like to work in a in a in a wing of a department Like we're not integrated by any stretch of the imagination We are separate a separate wing. So we create our own culture We create our own space and we are actively Working with the folks within the police department to include law enforcement But if I recall the cpi guys that was a cpi The people that came and did the training Who go all over this country and meet with police officers Spoke of that we have some of the healthiest Like culture in that they've ever experienced by spending days with us in terms of the degree of conversations That we were happening around the immense series about how we dug in and shared and so I think that I would just argue that if there are questions and concerns around culture Then just please come see the space come meet with the people Come talk with them about what it is to do the work and ask them what they think and how they feel about it Yeah, I don't think there's a nefarious element in this on either side I just do believe it's it's probably healthier for the long term to have our own space But we do live in a small community I would characterize the sort of Howard center and social worky kinds of organizations as cultures of care And I think the police department is as much more hierarchical than Probably is healthy for a social worky kind of an organization So we have we see it a little bit differently, but you're in it. I'm out of it I see it from an outside and not even you know, sort of Let me say it this way Organizational culture is deep and invisible in most cases, but it does kind of seep in over time. That's my only comment And I and I would encourage you also to talk like where we're involved with the national league around public safety social workers This is like we are part of the conversations and the growth we have four or five other police departments That have already reached out to us about the about the community support liaison program and they're modeling their programs their community service wings departments that they're trying to create Based on what we are doing here in burlington. So I understand the sentiment I'm never going to be able to dissuade anybody from it. You're going to You are entitled to absolutely believe what you'd want to believe, but I would always encourage anybody to like to Come and experience things and have an understanding of what it what it is in a contextual way and not just kind of in theory Any other questions or comments? Um Thank you. Lacey and president paul. So let me just say the following that I think that we need to just sort of digest this and reflect on the job description I so deeply appreciate you deferring that and what i'm going to ask is that it's too Abrupt for us to try to do that right now. I'm going to invite commissioners in light of this information Today is tuesday night by thursday morning to have given me any additional comments that you like the first round of comments I did send if you have additional comments, please send those to me by thursday morning and i'll make sure they get to the mayor's office and In in preparation for your meeting and I I just want to say also I apologize to the extent that we've slowed down the process But I felt that it was important for all of us to have buy-in. I think we're all hugely supportive of this And to the extent that we Know that we have the information that we need to know that we can provide really informative comments Um, I felt that it was important to take the time to do that because I think we all want to do this together So thank you and apologies for disrupting the process And the delay Thank you It actually makes the it actually makes the outcome far better So everyone is everyone feels like they've been They have hopefully been heard and yes, and certainly if you can get those comments by to us by by Thursday that would be ideal And I think as someone did mention it was actually former commissioner grant who had Raised a concern about and I think a very valid point Or at least in my opinion about the name of the position the title of the position You know, I think alternate may be a word that we use a lot, but it's not really what we probably Should be using. Um, there probably is a better word If you all come up with one That would that would be great too. Um, and any other comments that you have Will then be integrated into the into the job description or at least be be a part of the record And we will we did we did vote to have a special board of finance meeting next monday Probably will be around five o'clock And that agenda gets posted on Friday. So if you can get them by thursday that is ideal And thank you. Thanks for your time. Thank you. Thanks so much And lacy, thank you We owe you something for breaking up your time off by coming here. I do hope everybody I do hope that you all will take lacy up on her offer for us to visit the cape offices And perhaps if you'd like I can coordinate something so that we all don't go at different times. Thank you The next item on the agenda is the update on the website. Commissioner ral Thank you. Commissioner segrino. Um, this is going to be very short. Our website is actually now Up and running live. Thanks to mohammed who has been working diligently. Um, we're still looking for some content for those people I send a The link around we're still looking for content. We are still Working with having your bios and your Photographs up there. I'm also soliciting any additional information any additional links. I know Commissioner cumberford had talked about doing more educational links So I think i'm very intrigued by that as well So if you find anything that you would like to include just forward them to me From the public perspective, um, there is a lot of information there already But if you feel even from public the people who are listening, uh, don't hesitate to email me or mohammed to get give some input and some suggestions as well um At the current moment we have no And maybe other commissioners can weigh on weigh in on this. We have no Plans to have a social media Profile for the commission But we can return to that discussion in the future. I think for bpd that makes more sense You know, there are some very pressing Information that needs to go out as the chief has already talked to today, but for us. I think I think we can We can put it we can table that idea But i'm open for any discussion and any input on that. So that's I think about all I have for update So I would like to ask commissioners if they could have their bios and any of that information by friday to mohammed pardon Okay All right, great. Thank you. Uh, the next item is the use of force reports um So there are two parts to this the one is the this month's use of force report dc. Lebrek is here Welcome dc. Lebrek and It so a couple of things so we have now been Asking for all of the videos so we would repeat that request and we've asked commissioners individual commissioners to make sure that every video is viewed And last month all of that did happen and there were no There were no incidents that raised concerns on our part There was from december 2022 And i'd like to turn to that in a moment But first want to do what we have done in the past which is assign responsibility to commissioners To look at these use of force incidents. There are six this month And there are five of us one two three one two three five of us here um I'll ask commissioner garrison to take one as well. So if if you don't want all mine I'm just going to assign based on who's here um commissioner keith incident one commissioner rauw incident two Myself incident three commissioner comorford incident four commissioner oski commit incident five and um kevin garrison commissioner garrison incident six and mohammed if you would Send him a note to inform him of that. Yes, great So I wanted to turn to an incident from The december 2022 report and I just wanted to say I was a little Unclear as to how to proceed on this You've been sharing these reports dc lebrek and we haven't really provided much feedback in the past I did check with the attorney to see if it was appropriate to talk about this in public session And it seemed that it was so i'm open to alternative ways of doing this in the future But I will just mention the issue with regard to that incident. This was the incident in which two men were fighting at a new place and Um It was determined who the aggressor was after interviewing Bystanders and throughout most of the four videos the Officers and fire department handled the situation with calm and patience. I mean it was really very commendable how they handled it One of the concern that was raised however Is that the description of the arrest and the use of force report doesn't appear consistent with the video And if you don't mind i'm just going to read from my notes here to explain that The the use of force report in the use of force report The officer told the states that he told the arrestee he was under arrest and to put his hands behind his back He then said that the arrestee shouted in the officer's face and turned to walk away And then the officer brought the arrestee to the ground in the video At least for those of us who viewed it the arrestee did not try to walk away in contrast to the use of force report And it in instead the officer told the man he was under arrest and then immediately threw him to the ground So i i'm not i'm not Suggesting we're critiquing here the actions, but we are concerned That there is a discrepancy between the use of force report and the video So You are not reading their use of force report. It's a synopsis that i've put together Based on their use of force report. So everything in there is a generalization of what occurred Because quite honestly i i don't i would spend my entire job Trying to put all these together. So that is not those are just Summary synopsis whatever you like to call them of like trying to give The reader a general idea of what was occurring. They are not the actual use of force report written by the officer That nor do i have time to watch Every single video that would take even Beyond my retirement probably if i had to do that. Um, as i'm sure you're all aware Absolutely, so those so those reports are just a synopsis like you would get You know and How accurate they are like i said i try to be as inclusive in them as i can but they're literally It would be pages and pages and pages Of just me writing the synopsis um Just wanted to underscore of course that it is important that the officer affidavit corresponds to the video So in cases like this Well, let me add to that too officers do not include the uses of force in their affidavits the state's attorneys want the facts of What happened? What the crime was committed the elements of the crime and that's it they don't want the The use of force report so officers don't copy their use of force report into their affidavits Report is a personnel record Yeah How so help me understand I'm not sure what to do with that statement the concern here is that the it's not a statement It's what's required by us from the state's attorneys office. They don't want the use of force report Included in the affidavit the affidavit only contains the person how they're identified the elements of the crime And witness statements and stuff like that that support the criminal charge Not force that was used to take the person into custody Uh, I see so a personnel report is personnel record the use of force reports are personnel records Uh, not part of the affidavit uh So i'm a little confused about what we should do here because as I said at least the synopsis is not consistent With the with the video should we therefore ignore the synopsis? I don't know what more I can tell you other than the fact that I try to put together a generalization of what occurred in In the in the event based on what I've read And and what's in the incident report what the original call comes from I go between two separate Uh, I guess Well, they were one they were one Um program valkor, but now I have to go between our use of force System that officers write the reports in I have to go back into valkor I have to go back and forth between them and officers statements and incident reports versus their Actual use of force reports. So I look at both of those and I try to come together and put together the best Synopsis that I can of the thing I may have misinterpreted when he wrote the person I watched the video the person did try to move Didn't walk away from them. He actually tried to walk by the officer um So that could be what the officer was saying like he tried to walk away meaning he tried to walk by the officer This is arm away from the officer and And does not allow the officer to grab him and take him into custody and he is moving past him So I think what what part of what's happening here is that what dc. Lebrecht does with those use of force synopsis Is not dissimilar to what we do with a press release. It's not the entirety of the incident Nor is it every single specific of the incident We've pledged to make certain that those use of force documents include the the sum and substance of the use of force Certainly include the demographic information included certainly include the use of force to details But the notion that they were complete and total pictures. I don't think is Is part of being a synopsis similarly videos that we now show for certain kinds of incidents Based on our agreement. Um, those videos don't show the entirety either right a body camera is a limited tool It's better than anything that we've had before But it's not the sum totality nor Would it be if we had an overhead camera that showed some sort of overall picture of it? That would not be the sum totality There's always going to be aspects of individual subjective understanding of the incident and that's from all parties involved whether in this case It's the three officers who were on scene whether it's the witnesses whether it's the two subjects themselves But the synopsis endeavors to be a clear synopsis that it contains The demographics the data that people have said they wanted the nature of the use of force and the rationale for the use of force And I don't believe this one was actually inaccurate in so far as that goes I think that the the commission differs on that but I appreciate your input on that and I certainly appreciate dc. Lebrek the enormous amount of time it must take you to put together these reports So thank you for that Any other commissioners have comments? Okay, moving on to the next agenda item commissioner. I'm sorry commendations They are posted on board docs Mohammed would you like to read these or just briefly summarize them? I can read just one and all the Okay, what is in line already so A resident wrote message saying Just read the news about the can you talk louder, please? Yes, right Uh, he's saying just uh read the news about the incident with the fellow Uh in crisis that was uh subdued With a less than lethal gun great job men and excellent example for intelligent response This is the sort of thing that helps make vermont The best place in the world to live So as I said the rest of the commendation they are likely reading the board docs. Okay Thank you There were several commendations this month. I encourage folks to read them of the csls Officers and so on and so forth. So thank you For that Mohammed the next item on the agenda is Commissioner updates and comments any commissioners that have any updates or comments? Okay I can I Can I? Commissioner Ceguino, can we return to the commendations just for a moment? Um, I would like to personally thank, uh, the brollington police department For appearing very quickly when a toddler and a mother were hit on king street. I witnessed it I was there And I think he bpd arrived within I would say with 60 seconds to a minute And were incredibly helpful to Not only the family but also appeared to be very helpful to the staff of king street Youth center as well. So I just want to note that return to that momentarily. Thank you. Yeah, great. Thank you Okay We are going to move into executive session or let me put it this way I want to make a motion to enter executive session pursuant to one vsa a four to discuss disciplinary actions against employees Uh, is there a second to that motion? Seconded by commissioner rau all those in favor, please say aye posed Passes unanimously We will not be making any decisions at that after that meeting And therefore we will move to I would like to ask for a motion to adjourn Motion to adjourn from commissioner comorford seconded by commissioner rau All those in favor, please say aye Thank you


That's where Node Summit was. We just talked about Node.js for a game on it. This is SiliconANGLE.com's production in Cuba, live in Silicon Valley with Cassandra Summers for all the actions happening. End of the day, we're on our 15th minute interview and we're here with Matt Stuff, the CTO of Source Ninja. Matt, welcome to Cuba, Jeff Kelly, Phil Host, welcome. Give the folks a quick update on Source Ninja. I was going to do a good update about the Meta4 to code. So basically what we do is we find the security exploits and performance enhancements that are available for the applications that you depend on. So if you're building an application on top of Ruby or Node, you integrate us. We tell you what packages are out of date, what contain performance enhancements, and sort of help you focus on what you need to update when and why. So obviously, big data. We've had a lot of great conversations today. We talked with a lot of alpha geeks, a lot of principles of data stacks, Netflix, a lot of people in the community, and great vibe. Cassandra community's pumping. I'm saying this in my words. It's kind of a chip on the shoulder like, hey, we're not going away. We're the real deal. We've taken some lumps on some documentation and some stuff that we're fixing all that and fixed, but the community's strong. A lot of use cases out there and they're demonstrating the proof points. So kudos to data stacks, kudos to the community. But the action really has come down to here. Our report is solid state has created a massive innovation around infrastructure that affects databases and big data creates new things that never could be seen before. Online dashboards, real time is particular. So I'd like to talk to you about the real time aspect. So we've seen the need for querying, whether it's data stores and or for dashboards. So things like Apache Solar, you have some knowledge in. And we've heard people talk about storm. So let's talk about real time. What's happening with real time and how does that relate to the Cassanders of the world, H bases, the Mongols of the world? Obviously, near real time, real time, how do you want to define it? To me, real time is near real time. Seconds, that's fine. Minutes if it's a huge complex data warehouse thing, minutes is real time. If it's a five week, five day process done in minutes, I'm okay with that. But to me, it doesn't have to be milliseconds. Near real time. So we use storm internally. And the way that we use it is that we're consuming data from all these different repositories. So take, for example, Node.js. We monitor every single Node package. And we're looking at every single commit that comes into the system, every single change log, every single release. And that doesn't really fit into the Hadoop model very well because we're getting these constant streams of data. And so what we do is this data goes into queues and then it's pulled off by the storm workers and then it's fed directly into the database. In our case, Cassandra. And Cassandra is actually fast enough that it can serve these really wide rows, these really big data sets fast enough for web requests. So I can run everything off of just my Cassandra cluster and not have to worry about a memcache layer or all these other NoSQL solutions that you would have to worry about with some of these other providers. And so that was one of the things that led us to choose Cassandra. So we've had a really good experience with Cassandra and with Storm. And we're actually one of the contributors to Storm. So I work on some of the tabs and contribute back patches. So we're not that heavily involved with Storm. And for the folks out there who aren't totally familiar with it, just take us through what Storm is. The storm is a very, very cool project and we're aware of it. We're actually investigating it heavily. We're not in the weeds like you guys are. But for the folks who might not have heard of it, Storm has laid the Twitter, etc. Go share that. So Storm started out as a project from the small circle back type. They were later acquired by Twitter and so it powers the analytics dashboard for Twitter. So if you're taking a look at all your big data solutions, most of them are batch oriented processing. So I got a bunch of data that comes in. It gets dumped to like an S3 bucket or HDFS and I run some big analytics job. That analytics job could take hours, days maybe. Storm is really for streams of data. So for one example is the Twitter feed. So I've got however many messages coming in per day, let's say every single tweet. And I want to collect impressions on an ad or a link or something like that. There was no good way to do that. People were stitching together solutions using background worker processes and stuff like that. And so it was really hard to track data as it flows through all these different stages of my pipeline. With Storm you write a job using these very simple abstractions and then you define a topology in a JSON markup. Then you submit that to the cluster and it allocates resources for you, automatically distributes code across the cluster and then automatically starts pulling in data from your queues, distributes it seamlessly across the cluster to all your different worker processes and at the end synchronizes that to whatever data store you choose in our instance happens to be Cassandra. So when I got that, I want to translate that to the users that might not have gotten that. So in a way to try to compare and point to more use cases. Streaming data, there's other use cases, mobile data. So anything coming in fast, not necessarily old ways of data. Some data pops in, dumps on the table, you got to take it ingested. Streams of data is a contiguous stream of data and the Twitter firehose as you've experienced is just a really good example, right? Exactly. So would you agree and can you point to other use cases for the folks out there, obviously mobile, machine data? It could be sensor data, it could be check-ins, like say four square. A lot of people are using it for distributed RPC. So let's say I have a call that comes into the system but in order to run, let's say, like a pricing model, it would require the resources larger than a single machine can handle. And so what it'll do is it'll farm that request out into all these different machines and then return it to the caller. So it's a way to actually speed up my RPC request as well. Okay, so there we got it. So there the importance of that with Storm in my opinion and what you just agreed on was that streaming of data is relevant. It's going to happen more and more, not less and less. I would argue. Okay, that being said, that kind of changes things a little bit right now. Now, okay, so the traditional search, let's get to solar now. Talk about some search action. So search is different now, right? So search is about metadata, right? In the old days, you know, robots.tech would crawl your web page, bring it back to an index, run a string query against it. That's the search result. Yep. Alla 1997. But now you have the ability to take data in on the ingest. So manipulating data at the right at inbound is new concept. Yep. So can you talk a little about how that's affecting some of the searching? Because in order to get real time low latency, you got to do stuff like this. Yeah. What's your thoughts on this whole paradigm? And how is it affecting some of the projects? So one of the really big issues that you see a lot of projects is that it's, you'll see some of the data's in your solar cluster. So all my search data is there. And then I've got my big batch data and my Hadoop cluster. I've got some of my data in the SQL cluster. And you have to write a lot of code to keep all of these different data stores in sync. And you got streaming in. It's really complicated. Oh, that's not including the data money that you need to get out of the corpus of data. You don't know anything about. Yeah. That hurts your near real time capabilities. Yeah. Exactly. You know, it may have to run a Hadoop job in order to like do it. And that could be, you know, whatever. So the nice thing about so that data stacks integrated solar into Cassandra. You've seen some of this in the HBase community. But what happens is as soon as my data is written to Cassandra, it's also indexed by solar. And then the solar data is stored alongside the Cassandra data on the same data store inside Cassandra. So I get all the linear scalability of Cassandra also with my solar data. And so my Cassandra nodes can also act as solar nodes. And so I don't have to worry about writing synchronization code between the different data stores because they are the same data store. Yeah. And then all of my data is indexed in near real time. HBase doesn't have this. HBase doesn't have it. Yeah. They're working hard on it. I know that. Yeah. Doug Cutting, they had a meeting two months ago in Boston. That's their top agenda item. Yeah. But Cassandra's got it right now. So. There it is. There's an advantage of Cassandra right there. Okay. So let's get back to the importance of code because obviously you're dealing with some cutting edge. It happens to be a cool implementation because it's cutting edge technology in an area that's also around developers that we care about. So what are some trend data that you see in the developer community? We were talking earlier with Mark about, was it Matt? He's co-founder of DataStacks. Developers now are becoming pretty versatile in their programming capabilities. The ones that I would say the elite tech athletes, tech developers, they can code anything but they pick the tool for the job. So we're getting into the mode of pick the tool for the job. Hey, I'm a Rails guy. We're doing it this way. Or hey, I want to use Python for the data. So you know what I'm saying, right? So what trends are you seeing in the developer community that you can share with the folks out there that you can kind of put things. And I know what we're generalizing is sometimes difficult. But put things in the buckets. Node's good at IO. Python's good at this. What are you seeing from the data that you could share? So Node, I'm seeing a lot of uptake on anybody that needs to do streaming sockets. So like game companies are really, you know, if you need to do really fast response times like serving ads, things like that. Python, we're still seeing a lot of interest in the scientific computing community. Just, you know, SciPy, NumPy, those still have a lot of interest. For the really big JavaScript applications, you're starting to see some uptake of ClosureScript. And that's new. I mean, that didn't exist a year ago. And so that's just recently come on the scene. What's driving that? It's really hard to write large applications in JavaScript or CoffeeScript. And ClosureScript takes a very robust language that handles namespacing, libraries, reusability very, very well. And it has a lot of very nice libraries that make doing a lot of tasks very easy and gives you that environment in JavaScript. And you can write, you can take the same code and you can, you know, run it on the front end. You can run it on the back end. You can use the same. Kind of how Node.js kind of came about. Exactly. Very efficient in a use case that's cool. And it's even more so because like for us, we're using Closure on the front end in Node.js on the middleware. And we're also using it inside of our hard to do jobs. So we get to share that same logic across all of them. And it actually meant that we got to write a lot less code. Yeah, very efficient. What about analytics software? What package are you seeing? Because analytics is a big problem right now. You got obviously the big hype on visualization software. But one of the problems with getting data in, assuming you can take care of stuff at the ingest point, is pulling it out fast because it's large files. So let's take big data. I want to do the training analysis on some big data. You get to pull stuff out.  What kind of coding are you seeing? Is there a language that's really good at programming for extraction? So I think most of the community is still using Hive. Because it's a paradigm that's familiar. There's a lot of books written for it. So I would say most of the data land analytics community is still using that or transferring to it. There are some people that are using cascading, things like that. But for the most part, I'd say the welcome traffic is still around Hive. Great. Well, we're getting close to time here, Matt. Thanks for coming on. I still want to spend some more time. And so I asked you a few more questions because you're a great guest, great data to share. Share with the folks out there just what you're seeing within your community, your company. And some of the problems that you guys are solving. And just do a quick plug for your company. So I know you're probably hiring. Everyone's hiring. You're doing this kind of work. So I want to talk about some of your momentum and talk about kind of what you're looking for for new folks to join the team. Really curiosity. That's the biggest thing. And unfortunately, that's one of the things that you can't teach. But it's people that are always asking like, how can I go farther with this data? What new things can I learn? What things are my customers interested in? What interesting ways can I present that data? And if you can find somebody that has that internal drive that wants to go farther, then that's golden. And so really we're looking for people like that. Have you found any disciplines that kind of pop out? And we're seeing, I mean, obviously with CS and math, you're seeing music kind of correlate to that. I mean, I can't tell you how many guys I bump into who have a degree in music and literature that are coders.  So it's kind of interesting, right? And then the other one, you've got math guys who can code. Then you've got pure computer science guys. So is there anything that pops out on the trend lines? You say, wow, we seem to see a lot of these guys love big data. They're not the consummate CS dudes or psychology. Psychology is a good one because you got somebody, because most of the problem, so the big problems aren't getting data into my system or just being able to run an algorithm. It's being able to present the information in a way that it can be understood. It's to be digested. And that's not a standard tool set. It's not something that you can teach in school. It's got elements of design to it. So how are my users thinking? How do they want data presented? How can we pull the data out and make it meaningful to them so that they can make good decisions? Yeah, it's perfect. I love this marketplace right now. It's a combination of art and science. And where I grew up, it was simply just discipline code, code, code, lines of code. We're your measurement now. It's the creation and it's the teamwork. So Matt, thank you for coming on theCUBE. We'll be right back with our next guest. Go check out SourceNinja.com. You guys are doing great work here at Cassandra. This is early on. We're going to look back at these times and say, wow, I remember that 2012, how small the community was then, even though it's a packed house right now. So thanks for coming on. We'll be right back with our next guest right after the short break and we'll be ending the days very shortly.