Welcome to the Hindu News Analysis by Shankar Iyer's Academy for the date 28th May 2019. Displayed are the list of news articles selected for today's analysis and the page numbers in Chennai, Delhi, Bengaluru and Thiruvananthapuram editions of the newspaper. The link for the handwritten notes and the time stamping of the news articles are provided in the description box. For the benefit of mobile phone viewers, the time stamping is also provided in the comment section. Now let us go to the first article of the day. Now this article is relevant in prelim syllabus under rights issues and in your main syllabus in GS paper one under role of women, their problems and remedies. The article is based on global and regional estimates of violence against women, the prevalence and health effects of intimate partner violence and non-partner sexual violence which was released by World Health Organization. Now this estimate report states that sexual violence profoundly affect the short-term and long-term physical and mental health of women. See intimate partner violence is a major contributor to women's mental health problems, sexual and reproductive health problems and maternal and neonatal health problems. See when we say mental health of women is affected, it means that this violence by the so-called intimate partner can lead to you know post-traumatic stress disorder, anxiety disorders, depression, eating disorders and also suicidality. When we say sexual and reproductive health problems, we mean lack of autonomy of women in going for pregnancy or abortion, gynecological problems, possibility of getting infected by HIV and other sexually transmitting infections. See the problems that are maternal or neonatal health, health related problems that include low birth weight for a child given birth by the woman, prematurity and associated problems and also loss of pregnancy. See these mental health problems can ultimately lead to disability and death. Not only mental health problems, physical health problems related to physical health and also reproductive and sexual health and also maternal health, all these things can ultimately lead to disability and death. Now coming to intimate partner violence, we need to know who is an intimate partner. Now the World Health Organization in the Estimate Report says intimate partner can be a person in a formal relationship such as a marriage or an informal relationship such as dating relationships and unmarried sexual relationships also. So when we mean violence by an intimate partner, we mean the acts of physical violence in itself or sexual violence in itself or both. When we say physical violence, it includes slapping, throwing something that could hurt the partner, intense pushing which is also called as shoving or being kicked or dragging or beating and being choked or burnt on purpose and threatening the partner with a gun or knife or any other weapon.  It also includes having sexual intercourse because one partner is afraid of what the other partner might do if he or she does not have the intercourse with the partner and it also includes forcing to do something sexual that the partner finds humiliating or degrading treatment. Now according to WHO or the World Health Organization, this prevalence of violence by intimate partner is highest in the southeastern region which according to WHO includes India, Bangladesh, East Timor, Myanmar, Sri Lanka and Thailand. One should read carefully the article title. See it doesn't say India in India women face most violence by the partner in the world. It says India is among the countries where women face most violence by the partner. See the lifetime prevalence of physical and sexual intimate partner violence among women in this region is around 37.7 percent. It could be physical or sexual intimate partner violence or sexual violence or both and it is in this region India is also a part.  Now the article states that among men the offenders could be you know those having low education because when they have low education they do not know about the signs of body of women, the menstrual and reproductive health of women, the human rights and others and we even find educated men know sometimes worst in such behavior and they are in gorgeables. Also those who have faced bad treatment in childhood may have such violent behavior. See that is why they say any child should not be abused or treated badly. These maltreatment or the bad treatment could result in offending behavior in the adulthood. Those who are studying psychology could be well versed in the after effects of this maltreatment of children. Now coming to exposure to domestic violence against their mothers.  Gradually because of the close contact within the family setup and in the absence of positive guidance the male child will also become male child has possibility to become one like his own father. In some cases we can see the male children threatening their mother in the same way how their father would treat them. Imagine how these male children would treat their women, friends and intimate partners horrible. Now studies have found that male members who use alcohol harmfully or the harmful use of alcohol are also perpetrators of physical and sexual violence. The presence of unequal gender norms particularly in patriarchal societies and attitudes accepting violence as a normal behavior. These also have profound influence in the violent behavior with the spouse or the intimate partner and finally the sense of entitlement in other words treating partner just as a property in case of physical violence and just as a sexual property in case of sexual violence that can be who can be misused or abused according to their own whims and fancies. Now it is this part of taking undue advantage over the body of the female partner leading to sexual violence. Now it is found that potential victims of women are those having low education because when they have low education they may not know how to respond, how to file a complaint or how to apply for divorce, who to reach for help or how to communicate insecurities and other things as well. Now exposure to mothers being abused by father. See there are two things. In the presence of good and positive guidance this helps female children to take actions against the father while in the absence of guidance the children think this is fate and it is pitiful that they are bonus women. Abuse during childhood has indirect correlations to acceptance of violence.  If a woman accepts that women are subordinate to men now that is extremely dangerous because such women take the blame irrationally on themselves when such violence happens to them. This article states that advocacy counseling and empowerment counseling interventions are required and they are proven method of assistance and prevention of future violence. Also there has to be counseling by home visitation because only then we could easily identify such violence are happening and could possibly feasibly assist the victims with special care and attention. Now with respect to India if you ask whether India recognized the forced sexual assault committed by a husband as an offense or an intimate partner as an offense the answer is yes but ridiculously how. Now C section 375 gives such protection for married female partners but we say ridiculous because to file complaint of marital rape or you know assault by intimate partner violence here we are talking about sexual violence then the woman partner has to suffer before attaining 15 years of age. Thus it is very clear that it neglects all the women who are 15 years old and above. See even after more than 70 years of independence women in this age category are neglected by the law making body of India that is the parliament. Now that is also one of the reason why we say there has to be better representation of women in legislatures because they will bring policy for better policy for women and children very recently we have seen one article discussion in our previous classes. Now a change in this section 375 has to take place to accept legally that an act of love between husband and wife to be based on respect equality with care and consent and with clear communication. Very recently World Health Organization has released a framework titled as respect women preventing violence against women wherein this Arthur and also the particular framework and even the organization itself World Health Organization asks this framework should be widely adopted by all the stakeholders particularly the primary audience for this document respect women are the policy makers to inculcate various points that are available in the framework in adopting a policy for the nation and region wise. Now the displayed main question will be discussed in the revision and practice session or the final session of today. Now let us move on to the next news article. Now the next article is about inviting the leaders of member states from BIMSTEC for the swearing in ceremony of prime minister that is scheduled or likely to take place on May 30th and this article will be relevant in prelim syllabus under national importance and international importance and in physical and economic geography of the world. It can be linked to main syllabus in GS paper 2 under the area India and its neighborhood relations and bilateral regional groupings and agreements involving India and affecting India's interest and next in effect of policies and politics of developing countries on India's interest and finally also in important international institutions agencies and fora and their structure and mandate. Now as I already stated see the leaders of the member states of BIMSTEC have been invited for the swearing in ceremony of the prime minister also the member states of Shanghai cooperation organization of the leaders of the BIMSTEC member states are invited because of the government's focus on neighborhood first policy. The president of Kyrgyz Republic prime minister of Mauritius president of Bangladesh prime minister of Nepal and Bhutan are also invited to the ceremony and one fact with respect to Shanghai cooperation organization see that Kyrgyzstan is the current chair of this organization. Now in 2014 at that time for the swearing in ceremony of the prime minister the leaders of SAAR countries were invited but this time it was still not clear whether all members of SAAR countries will be invited or not. The article specifically talks about leaders of Shanghai cooperation organization and BIMSTEC member states. Now we have already covered Shanghai cooperation organization in our 23rd May newspaper analysis the link has been provided in the description. Now let us have a focus on BIMSTEC see it's a short form or an acronym for the Bay of Bengal initiative for multi sectoral technical and economic cooperation. Now it came into existence on 6th June of 1997 through Bangkok declaration. It is a regional organization that has seven member countries that lie in the littoral and adjacent areas of the Bay of Bengal and it constitutes a contiguous regional unity. See we frequently see the word littoral see it means a region lying along the shore so in the context of BIMSTEC it is the region or countries lying along the shore of Bay of Bengal. So if you see this map see the seven member states include five from South Asia Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Nepal, Sri Lanka and two countries from Southeast Asia including Myanmar and Thailand. Now today we saw with respect to this WHO on our first article India as part of Southeast Asia see that is how the world health organization has categorically placed India in the group of Southeast Asia. Now generally when we say India is part of South Asia so you need not confuse between the two. Now remember this map as countries are nearby India only so it won't be much difficult to you know keep it in mind. Now you can have these things by another method because or more comprehensive method because initially the economic bloc was formed with only four member states. At that time it the acronym was BISTEC where B stands for Bangladesh, I stands for India, S stands for Sri Lanka and T stands for Thailand. Then E stands for Economic Cooperative. In the initial in the very first year 1997 itself in the month of December Myanmar was included so therefore the group was renamed as BIMSTEC where M stood for Myanmar but if you use this method as a method to remember you should not forget that Nepal and Bhutan are also members of this BIMSTEC because in 2004 only Nepal and Bhutan were included. The acronym BIMSTEC was not changed after even after 2004 but only the full form was changed to Bay of Bengal initiative for multi-sectoral technical and economic cooperation from Bangladesh, India, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Thailand economic cooperation. Idea of BIMSTEC was conceived as a sub regional forum bringing South Asia and Southeast Asia regions closer. Also the forum provides a very good position for India's act east policy. See one of the prime purpose of India's act east policy is with respect to connectivity and development process in northeastern region and this forum is giving a distinct orientation to this India's act east policy that means it is a very significant pathway that provides the process or the development process or the connectivity of the northeastern region of India. The forum has also established a platform for intra-regional cooperation between SARC and ASEAN members. We are discussing about BIMSTEC and there is a platform for intra-regional cooperation between SARC and ASEAN members. You can see around 150 crore people in this BIMSTEC region that constitutes almost around 22% of global population. They say that the combined GDP is around 2.7 trillion and therefore the region also commands a significant proportion of combined gross domestic product also. In the last five years BIMSTEC member states have been able to sustain an average 6.5% economic growth despite the global financial meltdown. See the objective of building such an alliance was to harness shared and accelerated growth through mutual cooperation. Now in areas of common interest of the member states you know particularly to reduce the damaging impacts of globalization and also by utilizing the regional resources and the specific geographical advantages for the countries in this BIMSTEC. Now unlike several other regional groupings now this BIMSTEC is a sector driven cooperation organization. In the year 1997 there were six sectors for sectoral cooperation. That time it was trade, technology, energy, transport, tourism and fisheries and in 2008 they expanded it to expanded it with nine more sectors agriculture, public health, poverty alleviation, counter-terrorism, environment, culture, people-to-people contact and climate change. These are some of the areas of concerns of these particular countries in this BIMSTEC. Now the chairmanship with respect to BIMSTEC. Now this rotates among the member states. The present chair is Sri Lanka. India was the chair in 2000 and then the period 2006 to 2008. One thing to note the permanent secretariat of BIMSTEC is established in the capital of Bangladesh that is Dhaka. Now what is the highest policy making body with respect to BIMSTEC? It is the summits. The BIMSTEC summit is the highest policy making body. The summit is held every two years. The first meeting was held in Bangkok, Thailand. The second summit was held in our country in New Delhi in November 2008. The third summit was held in the capital of Myanmar that is Naipetaw in 2014. Very recently last year the fourth summit was held in Kathmandu, Nepal. The displayed practice question will be discussed in the last session. Now let us move on to next news article. Now we shall discuss about rhinoceros. See these two news articles have appeared in the same page. First is the picture that has appeared in the last page in all editions. Now it mentions about greater one-ond rhinoceros in Pobetora wildlife sanctuary. Now in the same page there is another news article about Sumatran rhino which tells that the last male Sumatran rhino of Malaysia has died. So we shall see about this one-ond rhinoceros and other species of rhinos that exist in the world. We shall also see some facts about Pobetora wildlife sanctuary. Now these articles will be relevant in prelims syllabus under current events of national importance and international importance and in general issues on environmental ecology, biodiversity. Now in main syllabus under GS paper 3 it will be relevant in the area conservation. Now coming to rhinoceros species of India see its scientific name is rhinoceros unicornus. Now unicornus means single horn. The common name is greater one-ond rhinoceros. Now if you see the rhinoceros, if you observe its skin is brownish gray in color and it will be very thick similar to armor plate. Now if you consider different rhinos species that lives in Asia this one-ond rhino species is the largest in size and therefore it is called as greater one-ond rhinoceros. Now if you see the spread geographical spread this species is spread across India, Nepal and Bhutan and you can see more number of greater one-ond rhinoceros in the state of Assam. Now know that the greater one-ond rhinoceros is the state animal of Assam. This species is listed under schedule one of wildlife protection act of 1972 and it has also been mentioned in appendix one of the convention on international trade in endangered species of wild fauna and flora. Here appendix one lists those species that are most endangered among the sites listed animals and plants. Now they are threatened with extinction and sites prohibits international trade in specimens of these species except when the purpose of the import is non-commercial for instance like scientific research. Even in these exceptional cases trade may take place provided it is authorized by granting of both import permit and export permit. Now let us see about different rhino species that exist in the world. See there are only five species of rhinos present in the world. Now they are found only in continents of Asia and Africa. Now the names of five species their classification in IUC and red list of threatened species and their location we are going to see here. First Sumatran rhino which we saw in the news it is listed as critically endangered in IUC and red list of threatened species. Now you note that Sumatra is an island in the country Indonesia. Now this species is found only in Asian continent especially in Southeast Asia. Now we can find these rhinos in the countries of Malaysia and Indonesia in its wildlife habitat. Next let's see about this black rhino again it is also listed as critically endangered in IUC and red list. Now these are found only in African continent especially in southern African continent. Now white rhino it is listed as near threatened in the IUC and red list they are also found only in African continent. Then Javan rhino listed as critically endangered in IUC and red list it is endemic to Java island of Indonesia and therefore the name Javan rhino only about 50 to 60 rhinoceros of this species are present currently. Now let's see this one-horned rhinoceros see it is listed as vulnerable in IUC and red list and if you see the geographical extent or the spread of this species it is located in Asian continent in India, Nepal and Bhutan. Now see the threads common threads faced by different rhino species is particularly the threads of habitat loss and poaching. Poaching for the illegal trade in rhino horn remains a biggest threat to the one-horned rhino great one-horned rhino. Now the horn is valued in North Africa and the Middle East as a ornamental dagger handle although there is no scientific proof of its medical value. See the horn is used in traditional Asian medicines primarily for the treatment of variety of ailments including epilepsy, fevers, fevers and cancer. Now we could see extensive illegal trade persisting throughout Asia despite protections and bans on international trade of rhino horn. Now the next threat is natural disasters particularly flooding also these Javan rhinos that are endemic to Java islands of Indonesia face a major threat of extinction due to diseases anytime we saw they are only around 50 to 60 percent in these Java islands. Now let us see about this Pobitora wildlife sanctuary see as stated in news article this sanctuary has the highest density of rhinos in the world we could see 102 rhino species living in a 38.8 square kilometer area and it is also having the second highest concentration that is the second highest population of rhinos in the state of Assam after Kaziranga National Park. Now the sanctuary is located in Marigond district of Assam in the flood plains of Brahmabutra river. Now some of the significant fauna or animals that you can find in this wildlife sanctuary you know like fishing cat, feral buffaloes, Chinese pangolins and pheasant tailed jacana this is a bird. So we have Indian rhino vision 2020 and this program or this vision was launched in the year 2005 by Assam forest department in partnership with World Wild Fund India and international rhino foundation and US fish and wildlife service. The program aims at increasing the number and range of rhinos in Assam through wild to wild trans locations from Kaziranga National Park and Pobitora Wildlife Sanctuary to potential protected areas that includes Manas National Park, Buracapuri Wildlife Sanctuary, Lakova Wildlife Sanctuary and Dibru Saikova National Park that is from Kaziranga National Park and Pobitora Wildlife Sanctuary to Manas National Park, Lakova Wildlife Sanctuary, Dibru Saikova National Park. The vision is to attain a population of 3000 wild rhinos in the state of Assam distributed over some seven of its protected areas by the year 2020 next year. Now that's about this Indian rhino vision 2020 we will see more updates with respect to rhino in the coming days news articles. Now the displayed practice prelims question will be discussed in the last session. Now let us move on to the analysis of next news article. Now this news article discusses about burnout which is a medical condition that was newly declared by World Health Organization. Now this article is relevant in prelim syllables under current events of international importance and in general science. Now World Health Organization has recognized burnout as a medical condition in its international classification of diseases. Now see ICD International Classification of Diseases is a global standard for diagnostic health information. Now it is maintained by WHO. It's basically a catalog or a book that contains the list of diseases disorders injuries and other health related concerns. Now it acts as a benchmark for diagnosing you know for the purpose of health service providers. It also acts as a benchmark for the health insurers as well. See even mental health providers for diagnosis they look at this ICD particularly with respect to disorders. Now the news article it is mentioned as ICD 11. See 11 means 11th revision of ICD. This ICD 11 has been released yesterday and will come into effect from 1st January 2022. Farin in this ICD 11 WHO has included burnout as a medical condition for the first time. See when you say burnout it is a syndrome that results from chronic workplace stress that has not been successfully managed. Chronic means every day, every day workplace stress. Simple terms it's a syndrome that occurs because of the continuous everyday stress that an individual cannot manage in a workplace. See syndrome means a group of symptoms that consistently occur together or it can also be defined as you know characteristic combination of opinions, emotions or even behavior. World Health Organization has explained that this burnout syndrome is characterized by three dimensions. First is the feelings of energy depletion or energy exhaustion. It's a condition where an individual always has the opinion of feeling tired always. Now then you see increased mental distance from one's job. See it's a feeling of negativism or cynicism related to the job simply means the person does not find any purpose in doing his or her routine job. Therefore he or she gets a feeling of negativity. Now cynicism means a fixed mindset that a person always thinks that the job he or she is working is useless. Third is reduced professional efficacy. Now this is a result of you know these feelings of energy depletion and also by the negativism that distance mental distance that one has with respect to the particular job. Now and when there is no motivation to work the ability to produce a desired result will be less will gradually reduce. That means there is a reduced professional efficacy. So all these dimensions will convey that a person is experiencing a burnout. Now in this ICD-11 WHO has also added or modified some health conditions. Let us see that. See for the first time WHO has recognized video gaming as an addiction. It was listed along with gambling and cocaine drugs such as cocaine.  Now compulsive sexual behavior means when a person has major focus in his life in such as masturbation or having multiple sexual partners or depending on online particularly pornography for sexual gratification and all these things rather than focusing on career health and relationship. See these are difficult to control and could damage relationships, career and even health and entire life also. Therefore World Health Organization have classified the compulsive sexual behavior as a mental disorder and one good thing with respect to the revision is that ICD-11 has removed transgenderism from its list of mental disorders and now it has listed it under the chapter on conditions related to sexual health. Now the displayed practice prelims question will be discussed in the final session. Now let us move on to next news article. Now this article is about Mount Everest. See this article will be relevant in prelims under current events of national and international importance and world physical geography and also general science. Mount Everest is the tallest peak in the world with a height or altitude of 8,848 meters. See it is located in Nepal-China border. This peak is part of Greater Himalayas which was also called as Himadri. The peak was located by George Everest in the year 1841. Therefore it is named as Mount Everest but it is called by different names in both Nepal and China. See it is called as Saga Mata in Nepal and as Chom Lung Ma in China. It's very famous for mountain climbers. Every mountaineer in the world aims to climb this peak at least once in their lifetime and while climbing these mountaineers are accompanied by Sherpas. Now let's see about this Sherpas. See Sherpas are ethnic groups who are native to Greater Himalayas or this Himadri. They live in Nepal surrounding the mountain region of this peak. They generally live at higher altitudes. So they are masters in mountain climbing naturally and these Sherpas act as guides and porters to the mountaineers who wish to climb Mount Everest. Now there are two ways to climb Mount Everest. One is from the side of Nepal. Other is from the side of China. Many mountaineers prefer the side of Nepal because it is cheaper to get a climbing permit and Nepal also earns a lot of money by issuing this climbing permits because it is said that each climbing permit cost around $11,000 and the news mentioned in the article is that at least 10 climbers have passed away or died a gone missing in this climbing season including which includes four Indians. The main reason given in this article is that there is heavy traffic in climbing the last peak. Usually spring season is the perfect time to climb Mount Everest since the weather will support this climbing but due to bad weather in the past few months this has pushed the mountaineers to climb the last peak of Mount Everest within a very narrow time frame. See everyone cannot reach the peak at the same time. A long queue is waiting on the path for the last peak. Temperatures are usually sub-zero at such higher altitudes and waiting in these sub-zero temperatures at such higher altitudes can be fatal or deadly to the mountaineers and the deaths in this year were mostly due to frostbite, exhaustion, dehydration and lack of oxygen. When you say frostbite it means injury caused to the tissues of human body such as nose, fingers or toes due to the extreme cold temperature and exhaustion means tiredness, dehydration is nothing but loss of body fluids and since the last summit or the last peak of Mount Everest is close to 8000 meters the availability of oxygen will be low. Now in a long waiting time the available resources such as water, oxygen and food are likely to reduce or get over. Now all these factors lead to extreme unhealthy conditions and finally leads to death of the individual. Now one another reason cited in the editorial is that excess permits issued by Nepal. See Nepal awarded 381 permits for this spring season where each climbing permit costs around as I already seen 11,000 dollars and many prefer climbing the Nepal side because of the cheaper prices of permit while it is more costly to climb from the Tibet side and some suggestions the author says you know like the authorities must learn the concerned authorities must learn from the present tragedy and Nepal has to restrict the number of permits that it provides every season and also the safety measures for the climbers have to be ensured by the authorities. Now these are very common suggestions and one need not be you know master enough to provide all these suggestions whenever you write examination when you find such things you have a general understanding even you can provide such suggestions. Now the first question is with respect to BIMSTEC they're asking which among the following countries are member states of BIMSTEC organization Sri Lanka Afghanistan India Bangladesh Pakistan. See in our today's discussion we saw a trick to remember member states of BIMSTEC B for Bangladesh I for India M for Myanmar S for Sri Lanka and T for Thailand EC stands for economic cooperation note that it also includes two other countries Bhutan and Nepal so from this we can say option that is one three and four are option B that is one three and four are correct if you if you carefully observe this question see all the countries given in the options are sark nations say if the question would have asked for sark nations then the option D one two three four five would have been the correct answer for this question and note that there are eight member countries in sark and the five countries given in this question and also Maldives Bhutan and Nepal one another thing is that you can easily eliminate Pakistan and Afghanistan because they are no literal states of Bay of Bengal so easily we can say that Sri Lanka Indian Bangladesh are member states of BIMSTEC organization now the second question this protected area has the highest density of rhinoceros species in the world this protected area is also part of Indian rhino vision 2020 from where translocation of rhinos is being carried out which of the following area best suits the above description and they have carefully given confusing options and we saw that Pobithora wildlife sanctuary has the highest density of rhinoceros species in the world and based on this Indian rhino vision 2020 from this Pobithora wildlife sanctuary and from Kaziranga national park rhinos are being translocated to various protected areas such as Manas Dibru Saikova national park etc so the correct answer for this question is option D Pobithora wildlife sanctuary now the next question ICD is a medical catalog of diseases disorders injuries and other health related concerns and it is maintained by world health organization the 11th revision of ICD has listed which of the following medical conditions for the first time video gaming compulsive sexual behavior burnout today while discussing the article related to burnout we saw that video gaming compulsive sexual behavior and also burnout were included for the first time in the ICD classification so the correct answer for this question is option D 1 2 and 3 now next we are going to see one main question in GS1 intimate partner violence has become a cause of concern for not only the health of women at risk but also their rights in this context what is meant by IPV and suggests measures to address the menace now for this question you have to first state few points to support the statement given in the question and here you can include the points discussed today whatever you could substantiate you know the meaning of the statement see while while highlighting using the WHO estimates you may say that intimate partner violence on one side affects the health of women we saw that it could even lead to disability and death death here even suicide sometime homicides also more than 30 percent of the women killed or killed by husbands the report says and on the other side you can you should also say that these amounts to serious violation of human rights it is violation of right to autonomy physical and sexual violence particularly here violence by the partner were both physical violence and sexual violence amounts to violation of human rights violation of right to autonomy violation of human dignity violation of respect all these things so then you define this intimate partner violence based on physical and sexual violence and suggest measures to improve the situation today we saw two important things with respect proving a situation advocacy counseling and empowerment counseling and also counseling by visiting the homes you know to understand the extent of the problem and thereby addressing them with appropriate with respect to specific care to be given to the victims and also you have you can highlight that amendment has to be carried out in IPC section 375 to recognize this marital rape or you know marital sexual violence or this intimate partner violence as a offense and to give protection to the victimized women with this we come to the end of this analysis for today and if you like the video press the like button share comment and subscribe to Shankaray's academy youtube channel for daily updates with respect to the newspaper analysis.


James Swannick here, and today we're talking to 62-year-old real estate investor Joe Brennan from Long Island, New York, who is 96 days alcohol-free today. Joe Brennan, welcome to the show and congratulations. Well, thank you, James. I appreciate that. If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't be here, so I really appreciate that. Thank you very much, and you're welcome as well. So tell us a little bit about yourself, Joe. So I have been married for 35 years to my wonderful wife, Mary. I have two sons, one who just got married last week. The other was married a few years ago, and I am a grandfather now to a little baby girl Parker. I am a real estate investor, and I also consult for another company, for a construction company, but we buy properties then in Florida, and I have one right now in Tallahassee, Florida, 158 units, and life is good. Life has been really good these last 96 days. Does that imply that life wasn't as good prior to the 96 days, Joe? Yes, it does. Well, listen, I have a wonderful life. I can't complain. I have a great family and children, but I was not where I should be. I was not as alert, as clear, as sharp, so this changed all that. It's amazing how much energy I have now. It's so much more energy. I remember, James, you and I had that first call that you talked to me, and we talked about the things I was missing or wasn't getting done, and all those things, the working hours at night, spending more time on the real estate and the investors, working on now, a coaching business that I want to get involved in. None of those things could I ever have gotten done because I was tired at night all the time from drinking, so it really has changed everything. The other thing is, I would get a little at times, a little rambunctious, and my wife really appreciates the fact that that doesn't happen anymore. I just feel great. The other thing is, you realize that it's something, and I think I've heard it so many times from so many people, it's such a commonplace thing to drink, and it's like, if you're not drinking, you're the oddball, but once you stop doing it, you realize how much smarter you are than everybody else. Now, I'm not a preacher, so I don't preach to people, and my wife still drinks, and we go out, and that's fine, but my brother who's said to me, Joe, I am just so goddamn impressed with you for what you're doing. It's just an amazing thing, and I know how he is. He's competitive with me, so I wouldn't be surprised. He started to say to me, I didn't have a drink. I decided I'm not going to drink for three hours, then I'm not going to drink, and I said, here it goes. He's starting to realize, he said, I held out all the way till 11 o'clock at the night of the wedding, so good for you. That's great. The other thing about this program, which I could talk all night, so I apologize, but the people I've met, speaking to people on MarcoColo, really gain friendships with other people through your program that really connects people. I think that's the best part of this thing, because you realize it's not just me. A lot of people have gone through what I went through. A lot of people are not being as productive as they should, and so just the amount of people I've learned, and the coaches you have, and the Victorians, have been phenomenal. To anybody who's out there who's thinking or concerned about where they are in their life, this program really changed everything for me. Thank you for sharing, Joe. I appreciate those kind words, and congratulations. It sounds like people like your brother are noticing the change in you, and without you actually pitching them on living an alcohol-free lifestyle, they're noticing your way of being, having shifted, and they want a piece of that action. Yes. Yeah. I think that's what it is.  Are you kidding me? How did you do that? That's unbelievable. I'm like, well, it's not really. Once you start to realize how good you feel, it's like being on a diet, right? Once you start losing weight, you start seeing yourself, wow, I can keep doing this. And then with this, with all the positives that come out of this, which includes losing weight, of course, that's the other thing people are noticing. It's like, wow, Joe, you look great. My brother and his wife, the one who talked about it said, how much weight did you lose? How much weight did you lose? I said, I don't know, like, seven or eight times. No, you lost much more than that. I've never seen you look so good. So that also helps. That helps feed it all. But is it curious to you or how much people are impressed by you performing the simple act of not drinking? Like, is it interesting to you or is anything you discovered about as a culture, how we perceive alcohol based on these kind of, wow, that's incredible. Wow, amazing, 90 days responses that you've been getting from people. Yeah. I mean, it's a nice thing, but it's a sad thing as well, right? Because the grip of alcohol in the society is so, it's so amazingly invasive, that if you're, as I said before, if you're not drinking, you are the oddball. But I also think that people don't see other people stop drinking that often. So it's kind of like, like my brother, right? He probably wouldn't have ever thought of it. So the more of us, and the more James, of all your students that get out there, the more people start to say, you know, you're right, Joe. I don't feel so good sometimes waking up in the morning. And I don't, you know, like, so, because all we see is alcohol everywhere we look, right? I said to my son the other day, and he started laughing. I said, Kyle, is there any place or any event that you ever go to where there's not drinking involved? And he stopped for a second and he goes, no, I can't think of it. So it just permeates our whole society. And it's just very routine. And I have found that being that person in the beginning was a little tough. But now it's like, I don't know, it's like a sense of pride for me to be the person in the room that, by the way, as you well know, James, in going to events and stuff, you see a lot of funny stuff when you're the only one not drinking.  And when I told people, no, I didn't drink, you didn't drink. No, I didn't. I just had a great time. So yeah, you mentioned your son's wedding. Is that right? Yes. Yes, we had my son's wedding last week. And where was that? So it was on Long Island in a beautiful place on Long Island.  And I was out on the dance floor all night. And having a big fun time, dancing some stuff with some of the young guys and stuff getting out there and doing it. And people thought I was drinking. But I wasn't. I had a great time, felt great the next morning. I was the first one up. I was out. And it was awesome. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I can totally relate to that. I've been out before events, weddings, parties. And the following morning, maybe people meeting up for a brunch or a lunch or something, and then nursing hangovers. And somehow the conversation comes up that, you know, I'm alcohol free or I don't drink. And they're just amazed. They'll say something along the lines of, you were drinking last night. I was like, no, it wasn't. But yeah, you were. You were like, yeah. I'm like, no, it really wasn't. Yeah. I remember being in, I was in Canberra, Australia. Canberra is the capital of Australia. I was there for a friend's wedding about four months ago. And beautiful wedding. A friend of mine who used to be a journalist married, a publicist for one of the Australian politicians. And it was a very kind of who's who of Australian politics at this wedding. And, you know, the party went late. It was open bar, of course. And I was drinking soda waters all night. And I was dancing. And I remember one couple asked me, hey, we're going to the bar. You want to drink? I said, yeah, yeah, grab me a soda water. Just soda water? I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, just soda water. It'd be great. Okay. So that went off. They got me soda water, brought it back. And they said, oh, you're not drinking? I'm like, nah, nah, I haven't drunk since 2010. Oh, did you have a problem? Did you have a problem? I'm like, no, not really. I was a societally acceptable drinker, you know, but I just realized that it was slowing me down. I put on a bit of weight. I was a bit tired and foggy and irritable. So I took a break to see what it would feel like. And I liked how it felt. So I kept going and it's been 11 and a half years. And then they were just amazed. They said, they're grilling me for the next 20 minutes. This kind of sweet Caroline was playing in the background and they were just grilling me on this. And wow, what's it like? Oh, it's amazing. Oh, you're drinking so prevalent, isn't it? Oh, I've always, I've often thought about cutting back or quitting back, but it's so hard, isn't it?  And the following morning, my friend and his new bride set up a little marquee tent in a park, a very picturesque park in Canberra overlooking a lake and said, meet everyone, meet there from 10 until one. I think it was like that they call it coffee and croissants, I think it was. Well, I was up at seven 30. I went for a run. I'd done some journaling and then I kind of the shower and strolled over there at 10.  But oh, I'm feeling a bit rough today. Oh, how about you? And I said, oh, I'm okay. I went for a run this morning. You went for a run. What are you talking about? I'm like, yeah. How did you do that? Oh, I don't know. And then someone else said he doesn't drink. You don't drink.  But I saw you screaming Bon Jovi living on a prayer midnight 1230 on the dance floor sweating and everything. I'm like, yeah, but I wasn't drinking. Absolutely amazed and astounded. And so it's so prevalent in society, isn't it? This kind of horror and amazement that someone might be able to do something like that. It is. It is. And the only difference between you and I, James, is since maybe because I'm 62 and you were so young, I was aching my knees. My everything was aching from the dancing the night before my head felt great on my knees. Tell me, Joe, what was your drink or drink of choice? I only drank wine. I would drink Pinot Grigio. Okay. That was that. I never drank. I haven't drank hard liquor since I was a young kid. And I used to drink a little beer. I would drink beer. IPA is lately with my sons because they like the IPA. So if we go to a game or something like that, I would drink beer. But with my wife or when we're out to restaurants and stuff, I would drink Pinot Grigio. That's it. But I would have, we'd sit at home and we got in the habit, especially during COVID of drinking every night. And, you know, I'd have three, four without a problem. And then get up at 415 the next morning. Yeah. You're an early riser, certainly.  I would drink it from say six o'clock to like 8.39. And then go to bed at 10. I'd go to bed at 10. Okay. So you drink it from six to eight, 39, three glasses, as you say, three glasses. At least three. Yeah. Usually three, sometimes four. And when it was three or sometimes four, were you buzzed or slightly drunk or were you just normal, neutral? And it was just, you know... You know, at home and drinking like that, I was more just tired. Maybe a little buzz, but not really that much. You know, like I was just tired. Yeah. And then when you slept and when you woke up, you said 415, you set an alarm for 415 or you just naturally wake up then? For the most part, I naturally wake up, but I always set an alarm. Okay. But yeah, for the most part, I do naturally wake up. But I will tell you and was, and I know I've heard this story many times since mine, but I remember saying to you, and this is what drove me to you, was waking up in the morning and saying, I'm not going to drink tonight because I was ashamed that I was drinking so much. And that's what I would get. I'd get up in the morning. You know what? Tonight, I'm not going to drink. And then I would drink. You know what? Tonight, I'm not going to drink because I don't feel good. I don't like this feeling. I don't like that feeling. And that's what that ultimately, I got to the point with that with some other health issues because my brother died of a heart attack and so I was getting my heart checked and things like that. I just finally got to the point where it was like, you know what? Enough. Enough. So. What was that feeling when you would wake up at 415? Like other than I'm not going to drink tonight, physically, what was driving you to say to yourself, I'm not going to drink tonight? I felt tired. Sometimes woke up with a headache. I'd take an extra strength, etc. in the morning. And also just thinking back, you know, saying, what are you doing? Like, why are you spending your nights? You could have gone to the gym, could have spent more time reading or doing the crossword puzzle, which I do tons of them now. You know, what are you doing? And I knew that Mary would stop. You know, my wife, she'd go down and watch TV. She'd have her two and that was it. And I'd keep drinking. So I, it was not, I did not like who I was. I also didn't like, I'm a very disciplined person. So I didn't like the fact that I couldn't stop when I wanted to stop. That bothered me. I gave up cookies for two years once and I'm junk food at it. I was only giving it up for 40 days and someone dared me. So it bothered me that I would say in the morning that I don't want to drink tonight and I would.  Like, stop. So. And what, what did you identify was quote unquote wrong with you? To me, it's, it's not normal to be drinking every night of the week. It's just not. I mean, I had some people say, oh, I have one drink and I, whatever, that's fine for you. But it's at that point to me, if you have a couple of drinks on the weekend, or you go out to dinner and you have a drink or two, that to me, that's what it should be. It shouldn't be that you, what happened, James was my whole day would revolve around drinking, right? Because I was thinking, okay, I'm going to drink tonight.  I want to have my drinks, right? I can't go to the gym because if I do, then I can't drink. And then so it became this thing where it was spending way too much of my time focusing on it.   And then one morning I just woke up and said, all right, I'm calling him tonight. And I'm doing it. So. So you were just searching around on the internet, were you? Or did you see what I'm looking at? You know what, I don't, I think, I think, James, I think you asked me this one. I think it was on Facebook. But, you know, I don't remember. I did, I was definitely looking online, but I don't know if I saw you on Facebook, then went online as well. Or I don't remember, but I definitely did go online as well. Yeah, got it. And during the process, during the last 90, how long has it been? 96 days? During the last 96 days, you said that you noticed some changes in you. I mean, other people noticed changes in you. Obviously, you lost some weight, you look great, you mentioned you had more clarity and energy. Is there something in particular besides dancing with energy on the dance floor? Maybe work related, business related, where you've identified that being alcohol free has served you in a very positive manner over the past 96 days? Oh, absolutely. At my real estate business, I'm now spending what those hours that I used to spend it on, I get added to that. I'm probably spending an extra eight hours a week just doing more real estate stuff. I'm now in a coaching program to learn to be a life coach. So I'm spending like five or six hours a week on classes and studying and things like that. That time, I wasn't using it all. I found that all back. I also have this confidence, this inner confidence that I've always been a confident person to myself, but the confidence of knowing that I'm not doing that anymore, the confidence of knowing that I'm the clearest guy there, the confidence of knowing that if my wife wants to go to a restaurant that's an hour away, all right, let's go. I would never do that before because I had a drink. So I just have a confidence about me that permeates because I'm proud of what I've done. I feel great. And there's a real confidence there as well. Yeah, fantastic. And what has your wife shared with you about your experience? Oh, my wife loves it. She always felt that I couldn't, didn't know when to stop, which she always could. And she, we were just out to dinner and she was talking about, you know, sometimes she'd get into arguments with me and it was the alcohol. And I would say, well, I said, I'm not doing that anymore. She said, absolutely not. She said, it's such a pleasure now. So it's great. She loves it, absolutely loves it. Fantastic. What's your intention from here on, Joe? What's your intention around alcohol, your habits, those kind of stuff? Yeah, there were times during this where I said, oh, you know, when it's over, maybe I'll have a drink. You know, I don't, right now I don't feel of the need to do that. I'm not saying I will never have a drink again, but right now it's going really well. I'm enjoying what it is. Every once in a while I feel like having a drink, but it's like, you know what, so what? I never really got horribly difficult for me, but I did have temptation. You always have temptation. So recently after my 90, yesterday I had a problem that I have some sort of foot disease thing that they told me about that was totally shocking. But the interesting thing was I'm like, no, I'm not going to drink. I don't need to drink just because I got bad news on something that came in. And so I have a much more of a strong feeling on this. I will tell you this though, as I've said to you that I'm very competitive is I've always said to myself, well, I'm sure I can have one drink, but then I said to myself, yeah, but I don't want to break the string. Like I'm going so well here. I don't want to break it. I'm doing great. I'm at 96 days. How long am I going to get this to go? And by the way, I got to catch up to James. He's only nine years ahead of me, but nine and a half or 10. But so my intention right now is to not drink for the foreseeable future. Hmm.  Is that right? Or is it your brother who's a competitive guy? No, we're both. Yes, I come from a competitive family. Yes. And I am competitive. I see. So does that mean that someone throws down the gauntlet and says, yes, you're going to be alcohol free for the next etc. etc. Like put a figure in there that you will commit to that? Yes. Yeah. I told you, I gave up cookies for Lent, which is 40 days. And then people are saying, ah, you can't do it. And I ended up because I kept going, going, going off for two years. I didn't have cookies. Yeah, because I was like that. And that's what frustrated me about the drinking that I couldn't stop it. But now that I've stopped it, I'm like, okay. So have you, have you got a timeframe in your mind now? Or is it just day by day? Or is it? You know, I figured the summer, look, the summer's difficult, right? Summer's difficult. I have a beach house, you know, our, our routine always has been, you know, go down to the beach at four o'clock, three o'clock, open up the drinks at five, sit on the beach for a couple of hours, watch the sun go down and, you know, but plus there's also to beach parties, people having beers and stuff. But you know, that's fine. I'm not worried about it. I'd stay for the summer. Usually the other big thing is giant games, the football games, we have season tickets with my sons. And we usually do a little tailgating before with a few beers, nothing big, but I always enjoy that because it's with my sons and we pick the beers, the IPA's and stuff. But I'm not going to be doing that. I do pick some good. Yeah, I decided that I'm not going to do that. So it's at least through September, whatever, and we'll go from there. Yeah. So you'll still go to the games and still do the tailgating. Oh, I'll still do the tailgating. Absolutely. Yeah, I'll still do the things I do with my sons, but, but I just won't drink the beer. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, got it. Well, here's the thing. You don't have to drink the beer in order to enjoy the experience with your sons in order to enjoy the game, enjoy the Giants game. You don't need the drinks to dance like a crazy man on the dance floor at your son's wedding. You don't need the drinks to go to the work functions. Tell me a little bit about the work functions that you attend in real estate. Yeah, so we've had a few. I work, one of my bosses is an Irishman, a real Irishman over from Ireland and is a big drinker. And the guys we go out to lunch with tend to be big drinkers. So the last four or five, because we have another lot, I have not drank at all. And boy, can they pound them. Wow. And I would, in the past, I would be sitting there having three wines, whatever with them. But you know what, after no one says anything, like, it was fine. It was fine. I went to an event, an evening event, and it was a cocktail party. And I had my salsa and it was fine. It's like you said, at the end of the day, people don't really care. Although I will say this, my good friend said to Mary the other day, is Joe okay? Because more than anything, we had a really the last few nights, I went to bed late because we had a wedding that we went to on Friday night, another wedding Friday night.  So two nights in a row, I got to bed after one o'clock. And I don't ever go to bed after 10 o'clock every single night, no matter what.  I'm like, well, I'm just tired. I'm not used to being up two nights in a row like that. But that was it. The positives are so far outweigh any wanting to drink, the positive things that have happened to me that it's just not worth it right now. Hmm. Just finally, Joe, was there something that you discovered about yourself along the journey? You were inside of our 90 day program, Project 90, you met a whole host of other people. Was there something noteworthy or interesting that you discovered through that process? Well, I think, and I might have said this to you before. And I think when you and I had our first conversation, I said this to you, I truly believe in coaching. I think everything I've been successful in through my two real estate type businesses, just like coaching, I'm doing this. And I think what happens is when you're being coached and when there are other people involved, it just raises your whole game. I mean, I'm the type of person that I want to do well with other people. I want to make sure that I show up. I want to make sure that I'm doing my part. And I think your program brings so many people together, and you get to see so many different types of people, and you also are being held accountable. And I think that's the greatest thing about coaching is being held accountable. My wife and I just had this conversation at dinner, talking about how coaching is so valuable to me, because I remember my first real estate coaching thing I had homework to do every week. And I had to show up on that Wednesday. And if I would be mortified if I didn't do that homework to make sure, because I was being held accountable. And your program does that. You hold people accountable.  Because it's not this serious, dour, dull, we have fun. People talk, the Marco Polo's are great. You really feel like you're having a good time while you're trying to stop drinking. So I really tip my hat to you, James, because this is a phenomenal program that you've put together. It really is. I can't, I would recommend it to everyone and anyone that I talked to who was ready to do it. Because I really think you've put together a great formula for allowing people to not only stop drinking, but enjoy the process and meet a lot of good people. Thank you so much, Joe. Appreciate that. And congratulations on your success so far. And it won't just be you who gets the benefit.  All these other people who come into contact with you are all going to benefit from your new way of being as well. Absolutely. I truly believe that. I truly believe that. So I thank you because, as I said, without you, it wouldn't be like that. I wouldn't be where I am, so tribute to you and your team. You're so welcome, Joe. Congratulations again. Joe Brennan, 62, real estate investor from Long Island, New York. Thanks. Thanks for listening to the Alcohol-Free Lifestyle podcast. I want to load you up with some free stuff right now. So if you want to go to JamesSwanick.com slash guide, I will send you my quit alcohol guide, which has helped six-figure entrepreneurs and top professionals produce or quit drinking. You can also text the word quit guide to the number 44222 if you're in the US, of course. It doesn't really work anywhere outside of the US. 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We're joined again by Dr. George Boy stones George. Welcome. Thank you for joining us once again. Thank you for having me, but the last time we talked We really went through the development of stoic allegorical and Exegetical means as a way of retrieving ancient wisdom in this segment I wanted to talk about how the middle and later neoplatonist took these methods and applied them not only to ancient wisdom but also to reinforce the primacy of Plato himself you point out in your book Post-Hellenistic philosophy that the Platonist added a single premise that made all the difference in the world that the ancient wisdom had been Reconstructed in its entirety by Plato. Tell us a little bit about how stoic exegesis was absorbed by platonic thought as I was saying last time We talked about how the stoics about the thought that you can reconstruct the wisdom of the earliest people which has a certain privilege status through Fragments above the Greek mythological tradition, but then other mythological traditions too by some process and comparative mythology I wanted to apply that to In my mind the mystery of how it is that just around that period you suddenly get people who are talking about Plato as being a Figure of tremendous authority in philosophy Someone whose thought is to be not not just engaged with he's always been taken seriously But someone who you can sort of assume has got it right and I want to see whether we could put those two things together And my thought was well What if it's the case that they think that Plato has that the place is special place in the history of philosophy kind of comes from The fact that he already knew that this was the case that you could reconstruct this privileged philosophy from study of ancient Swiss done traditions and that in fact what his philosophy is is an expression of a Program of reconstruction that he successfully achieved and I must have been encouraged in that thought by the fact that you get a lot of Biographies of Plato at this time that have him travel around all over the place to to meet the sages of Traditions around the world and not just Greece not just Egypt people have been saying is From that, you know from his own day people talk about him going to Egypt But also to India and to Persia and All over the place. So why are they saying that well? Maybe they're saying that because they want to explain how it is that that he comes to Occupied this position of authority for them that he's successfully Reconstructed the ancient wisdom. So Platonists take I think that's a theory that they have and they take they take on those methods themselves So you get examples of Platonists engaging in the exegesis of mythology this way themselves and So for example talks about myth of either Pisces and Osiris at some legs and Zoroastres, Reykino and other things too And I take it that they're doing that then to sort of try and prove the point that if you can show that This platonic wisdom is there within These ancient myths from other traditions that sort of proves that that's where Plato got up from in the first Space which shawls up the idea that he has some sort of special authority that was my thinking about move from the Stoic sonority to the Establishment of this whole new movement ready, which is based in this book. It's very interesting that in this early 1st century Period onward Plato in a sense gets For lack of a better term canonized even right like Thracilus is canonizing Plato for the first time And then you have these groups kind of springing up Maybe having less to do with Plato's immediate successors who are very skeptic strangely enough about everything I know you touched upon a few of them But I didn't know if you could go through some of the thinkers who are pioneering this way of Looking at that the myths and lore this time one of the problems that we have with with Platonism is that we don't Know who the pioneers were so so Thracilus you've given Pretty good early example of someone who clearly is thinking about pleasure in this way But we know about him because he establishes he arranges the dialogues in The order that we used today advanced or so great sort of reference for the canon I think it was established that just was an honor just wasn't put them in order So on so in terms of people who are thinking about the the use of allegory We can only really talk about we can't talk about who pine is this but we can talk about Conspicuous examples, and they would be people like Pluto is one of the most surviving Platonist period He's got a whole work on the myth of Isis and Osiris how one might interpret it which goes through a series of interpretations But then shows in the end how the Platonist interpretation is the best the one that explains most about it So does that sort of job? I think I'm right in saying by the way that's the earliest Full account of an Egyptian myth that we have But he's also very keen on as I say on Zoroastra He likes the dualism of Zoroastrians He has things to say not in surviving words We've got some very intriguing fragments about some Greek ritual traditions which talk about explicitly talk about the first people the old talk than us first people and Their views about God and how they're preserved through these traditions So he's clearly taking that sort of way of thinking from the stove figures We talked about for that qualities incurring someone else who weaponizes this really interestingly is a guy called Kelsus We don't know anything about him except that he wrote a big long attack very well-informed very early attack on Christianity Which in the third century the Christian origin gives an even bigger longer reply to Thanks to which we know what Kelsus was saying But one of the things that Kelsus is a little bit obsessed with actually is the fact that the Christians And the Jews but even more so than the Christians just fall outside the kind of range of ancient authoritative Wisdom traditions and that's one of the problems with them that they sperm The Greek tradition and the Egyptian tradition and their own but their own is really a sort of corrupt version of this so that whole way of thinking about Getting back to ancient wisdom becomes a polemical weapon Art in the hands of Kelsus. So he's very he's very key on that and then there are some fragments here and there Numenius who's self-described as a Pythagorean but really thinks what any Platonist thinks is quite interested in the exegesis traditions There's a very funny fragment relating to him where he's supposed to have had a dream one day where the goddess is appear to him naked and he says this is Not decent what he do and they say well, this is what you've done to us You've gone and through explaining what those sort of mysteries of the alicinium brights are and plant all these allegorical accounts of a divinity in the tradition and you've stripped us naked. This is what you've done So he clearly we don't have a lot of it, but he clearly was very interested in in Getting back to primitive truth through a theory of understanding of the traditions to so there's a lot of it about I think in method is quite interesting. I mean it's really Really interesting to read but it's doing more Disturbing stories set set us up to do is a lot Platonism just seems to be this very malleable force that is very permeable to new ideas and taking those ends and in a sense It's it's kind of like early Christianity in that regard. It's very interesting You were mentioning just now about it was not only Plato, but like you also see these figures like Orpheus and Pythagoras as well people are constantly Appealing to these figures who were further and further back in time for authority I was talking to a scholar named Dylan Burns who has this book about Scythian Gnosticism and the Scythian Gnostics at Porphyry's Lectures and his book two of the inniates against the Gnostics and how These Scythians were using this very polemical weapon like you were saying of Appealing to this ancient wisdom, but they were doing it in the exact opposite of how a proper Platonist would do it with Saying Plato was the benchmark for this like for them who Plato wasn't the benchmark he was figures like Zostrianos Zoroaster all these all these Pre-flood figures very very interesting. It shows you that it can be used to Prop up status quo or be a counter cultural kind of current That's what I wanted to talk about just for a moment just these when they're reconstructing this primordial wisdom Like I said, they're appealing not only to how Plato did it, but they're also appealing to figures like Orpheus and Pythagoras So I didn't know if you could just talk a little bit more about this This is something else which really struck me when I was thinking about this originate Which is that I think traditionally people have thought well somehow or other platonists just have this kind of so quasi religious Attachment to Plato and that's why they take him to be authoritative but one of the really interesting things about The attitude towards Plato's authority is that although they take it to be Absolute or at least they treat it as if it is absolute It is not exclusive. So they're very happy to say that Pythagoras has equal authority with Plato And indeed there are Pythagoras. I just mentioned Numenius who and all of his work is Referencing Plato is exegesis of Plato is is I mean he's indistinguishable from a platonist But he clearly thinks of himself as a Pythagorean and everyone else calls him a Pythagorean too So in a way, you know what you call yourself It's not about the individual figure and Plato is not the only person who's done this and You know, why would he be the clearly they think it's a it's a some cultural movement where people recognize the value of Of mythologies and Plato the thing about Plato is that he is the one guy who wrote all this stuff out pretty clearly So however hard you find to interpret the platonic tachylox, at least we have them, right? So Plato is is the best access we have to that generation or that there's sort of era of of Mythological people are thinking with the mythologies. I think that's how it works Plato isn't exclusively authoritative, but he's he's uniquely clear in the way he he transmits the system But absolutely Pythagoras everyone would agree is on the same page and the list really expands I mentioned Kelsus earlier here one what gives a big list of people that he thinks counts as authoritative and all sorts of people I said Orpheus who as far as kind of modern historians are concerned is is pretty much a mythological figure, but he there is a Corpus of hymns that are ascribed to him and they come from a Pythagorean Platonist milieu And so there's a sort of neo-Orpheus around this period too. So they look back to Orpheus other early poets as well Linus Mousseus and of course, you know the big figures in in other traditionsites are Aster as you say In a way one of the most interesting things here is that Homer comes back into the picture So so far we've had Homer as a conduit for earlier thought But now now we've got this idea that there's this sort of These generations of earlier Greeks who themselves were reconstructing ancient thought there are people who think That Homer is one of them. So after all now for the first time Actually, we get people who think that Homer is systematically readable as deliberate philosophy Because Homer like Plato has reconstructed the ancient philosophy Only Homer has himself decided to pass on allegorically as well Now this is the period where you start to get people who write whole works on Homer as if Homer's an authoritative figure But they're all saying the same thing. I mean that that's not a contradiction because You know more than one person can be right at once. And in fact for Platonist the sort of glory of the era that This obviously idealizing in a hopelessly extreme way But but they sort of think of the era as one where really people didn't disagree very much because they were very anchored in this In this ancient tradition. But as I say, Platonism leads the charge just because Plato I'm gonna say Plato says what he thinks I mean the one the frustrations people have with Plato is He doesn't really because he puts all in the mouth of Socrates and you have these dialogues and all that's very complicated But it's a hell of a lot clearer than anything we have from anyone else as the point so we can do something with Plato The whole thing I find ironic about if you're reading something like the phaedrus What Plato ultimately says, you know, you can't if you write something down That's not how you obtain knowledge old kids First generation of successors are all skeptics Skeptical of knowing anything at all right Plato himself is writing with these dramatic voices Almost polyphonic voice, right? It's interesting that people would see him as Writing down the ultimate wisdom, but you're right. The dialogues are just by very fact Like we were saying earlier that you have a canon You know Plato has that primacy and it also ties into right to what Dylan called the the platonic underworld You have all these other things going into it too We're just mentioning the orphic revival with the orphic hymns caldean oracles. Well, maybe not as important to Somebody like platinus. It becomes extremely important to later neoplatonic thinkers like yamblichus and people after him It's one of the reasons that the people start to Talk about why people have done philosophy and an allegory in the first place Talks this a lot actually, which is that it's somehow you're starting to address issues which Can't be said in normal language I mean very difficult concept concepts, which you need to grasp intuitively and be led to rather than than than have explained to you And I think that's why poetry has a role in this and allegory has a role in this and and that Aracula fork has a role in this and so your your observation our place was really helpful there But it's not a place. So in fact is able to say all of this super clearly, but it's just more clear than it he's found this kind of clever way of Both telling you and some problem making you think about it at the same time So he's some clearer But no one can say I really clearly so you get all these different ways of experimenting with trying to lead the reason towards it I make a lot of music analogies music is like my second love like when people think of golf They think of a band like the cure because the cure has this massive catalog of stuff But really it was created by these bands that are maybe around for three or four years like bowhouse Maybe leave three or four records out there. You know people are creating a canon They're looking back on maybe a romanticized idealized time that didn't necessarily exist I feel this next question is kind of important for Definition of terms So I didn't know if you could tell us what the argument from disagreement is You've mentioned that Plato's successors went skeptical, which is right. So What happens between Plato and the period we're talking about now first thing in satiety, let's say Is you get a kind of explosion of debate after Plato after Aristotle Again, this is a slightly idealizing history because actually if you if you You know do the spot can go back There are a lot of schools and debates going on in the fourth century Third century in the context of Plato in the context of Aristotle there's a lot going But most of it doesn't survive. Most of these schools kind of fizzle out So from a from a later perspective, you can kind of round up a bit and say basically You've got Plato. You've got Aristotle and then you have in the Hellenistic period this kind of explosion of major schools that have real traction and Subscribership and they they're the major debates. You've got Stoicism and Bureaucureanism and you've got Aristotelianism in the mix somewhere All these new theories But what Plato's school does that was the academy is still surviving as a school the school that Plato found it But what they do is they sort of step back at this point and say well, hold on a minute We've got all these people who have very very different views about the world and you know We could do Plato and have yet another view but actually What's our criterion now? How do we how do we judge between these different views? And so Plato's school becomes quite interested in both some epistemological issues about how you can Tubes, how you can know anything is actually and and they Push the line that you can't And there are lots of ways in which they do that. It's a very interesting topic in its own right but one of the you know, some simple foundational arguments that the Skeptics have is the very fact that people who have views disagree with other people who have views That no one can agree on anything and there doesn't seem to be a way of deciding between And this debate is intractable. So, you know, you've got three centuries of Stokes banging heads with Epicureans and they don't get them for work So, um, what even if you yourself So think well, Stoicism kind of seems right to me You've got to take into account the fact that there are as many people who think Exactly to say about Epicureanism. So that needs to do some question your own intuition is maybe So the argument from disagreement is essentially An argument that challenges any dogmatist to give a reason why we should leave them All of their opponents and so long as people disagreeing there's probably a reason to disagree and we probably shouldn't choose And and my thought is that well, I think you can sort of see this in in movements towards the What what we now think of as the end of the Hellenistic period is the first century You see you can see that a sort of stalemate has started to Uh settle in at this point. So none of the old debates getting resolved. There are there are new Moves tried, but you know, nothing's really going anywhere and I think it's sort of one of the philosophical Challenges of the day is to find a new way forward. How do you answer the? argument from disagreement and you see different people try different things So there's a someone who's attracted lots of interest in recent decades called Antiochus of Ascalon who was Maybe the last head of places academy. In fact, he he sort of steps back from this and says well You know, we've been going on about how much debate there is between everyone But is there really that much debate? Is there really that much debate about the essential things? So he tries a move where he says that that the amount of debate has been exaggerated They're the skeptics and he comes up with a philosophical system that shows how A lot of these people really agree much more than they say they're agreeing So that's one way I think you can see people really grappling with that challenge But the reason I think it is relevant to the maintenance question is because I think that Another part of the story of why you get Platonism in the sense of a movement that takes Plato as an authority figure Is that that I see them as trying to make their own Innovative move against that argument That if you could establish somehow that that any particular figure has authority If you could find some sort of non philosophical argument for that Then of course you'd have a reason to At least provisionally align yourself with them So the suggestion I made is that one of the motivating factors for Platonism is Well, two thoughts really one is If you can't identify anyone who has some Sort of a priori reason you have some a priori reason for believing then let's be skeptics Right, but then the second thing is there are actually the maybe reasons Ahead of time as it were to think that Plato has some special status in all of this and the reason is to do With what I was just characterizing as that slightly idealizing view of the history of philosophy where everyone was agreeing before the Hellenistic period started And I think that the thought they have is that you can sort of trace the history of disagreement Back to Plato Plato has a kind of point of departure And that you can you can do a sort of historical etiology of disagreement In terms of the way in which people sort of go in opposite directions away from Plato and then they start arguing with each other But that gives you some hope that maybe Plato was right in the first place Because if you disagree with him, you never find a position that other people are happy with So you go from this historical position where not true But let's say everyone everyone agrees with Plato to a historical position where everyone who disagrees with Plato disagree with each other as well So no one disagrees with Plato and doesn't also disagree with other people who disagree with Plato So that's a it's a slightly weird argument, but it's at least a way of saying Here's a reason to take Plato serious And then you add that to some historical hypothesis that I was talking about before That Plato has traveled widely thought widely Engaged with these ancient traditions and that gives you an explanation for how it might have been historically speaking the place It would have had a system that was so robust So we've got an explanation for how Plato comes to have a good system We've got an explanation for why things go to pot after Plato and all of this I think presents a reason for taking Plato very seriously and either You just admit that the skeptics arise and give up or you take Plato very seriously and that's my view of what Platonism possibly Kind of is and then the more you study Plato the more you realize that you were right, of course I mean the results have to justify that but it's a good working hypothesis That's where I think Plato is coming. Platonism is coming from my final two questions Are going to harken back to my actually my very first episode on ancient barbarian wisdom And we did touch upon this a bit already with figures like orpheus Pythagoras things like that I didn't know if you could kind of talk a little bit about what ancient barbarian wisdom is for those who are perhaps unfamiliar With the concept the emphasis on the barbarian isn't so important in my few things But the the the ancient is so the thought is that for various reasons you think That a lot of the problems that we have a lot of the icons that we have a lot of the misunderstandings We have come from centuries of of prejudice also of technological intervention in our lives. So we we Have become very used to messing with nature building our own environments and so on and so on and so we that removes us from a kind of natural relationship with the world and and is is that sort of technological intervention is part of of our own mental corruption in a certain way the thought is that if you could know what it was like to be a thinking Human being before all of that stuff when when humans lived in a more natural relationship with nature you'd have a really interesting insight into Ethics but also physics the way the world works the way parts of world work together in The sort of harmony that's not always visible to us now So people become very interested in thinking about what the very earliest human being this Thought and of course there's a premise here that there are such things as the earliest human beings But that's what most people do believe The human beings are created or emerge from the earth at a certain point So it'd be really interesting to know what they thought and the idea is that the one hope we might have of hearing their voices Is by looking at the kernel of the the mythological religious traditions that that we'd inherit it through Originally an oral tradition of course and the the so-called barbarian wisdom becomes interesting here because one of the checks on whether you're finding genuine voices of antiquity within your own traditions Is whether you're hearing those same voices the same kind of perspectives in the traditions of other barbarian non-greek Traditions too and and you go and look at what the Egyptians are saying and what the Celts are saying and what the Persians are saying And what the Indians are saying and so on and so on everywhere you can or the Jews are saying to But some people are very interested in that and then you see where they converge and That's the thought that you can you can use that as a method of It disinterring so the ancient wisdom As a check on all your own philosophical thinking You were talking earlier about how these concepts can be often Weaponized at this point in time and they certainly get weaponized in a couple of figures that I'm going to talk about later So we see these methods used in philo where we're just talking about it moses as this Figure from antiquity. It was a very why to the meaning is that they say it was moses speaking greek Absolutely, we see this taking a detour in the alexandrian jewish milia a philo But then it really gets weaponized in somebody like Cation right? I wanted to know what the repercussions of these platonic developments are for the later christian exegesis Especially in somebody like tation who's really weaponizing this and saying that our wisdom is the penultimate wisdom And everybody else is just borrowing or like a corruption So I didn't know if you could talk about that a little bit So as soon as you have the kind of view that we were just talking about where you're looking to reconstruct The ancient wisdom through these traditions of course What you want to do is to find the traditions that have been least Messed about within the meantime So you want to find the the most conservative traditions and the oldest traditions and that's where the Talk about weaponization, but that's where the polemical edge to this comes to you because if you can say to someone That your tradition is kind of older than theirs Or more conservative than theirs then you have a way of saying that you're kind of culturally better than they are And and this becomes a bit of a debate or or any Before maybe lateness we even start to see this a little bit and and it really reverses the kind of ways in which cultures talk to each other Actually, I mean that there was a point in time where The greeks would say, you know, we're better than the egyptians because we've taken on That there's of early insights mathematics and so on we've developed it is best great Innovative culture and the egyptians are too conservative. They're behind the times, but then suddenly you get this kind of switch Ground the period we're talking about where people say hold on the egyptians are older and more conservative, which means they have a better You know, phone line through to to the voices of the ancients So that's a better thing to be and and in particular there's a debate that that arises between Jewish and egyptian traditions actually about Whether one is derivative of the other. So some people argue that the Judaism is a is some kind of offshoot of Egyptian Our religion other people argue that it's the other way around that Egypt is a sort of Egyptian religion is a kind of offshoot of a corruption of Jewish religions Of course the figures of of moses and joseph to a very important among the bait So it's really interesting and it becomes very heated and that gets carried through so that the debates that christians and platinists Have we talked about kelsus for example a platinist who attacks christianity on the basis that it's a religion That's an offshoot a corruption Of another religion namely Judaism Which itself is in his eyes an offshoot of a corruption of egyptian religion too. So it's a doubly corrupt an utterly worthless and and why so, you know Why would you be christian? It's actually a fairly some central part of his argument and indeed a central part of the response that we get from origin in the third century to the fact kelsus is wrong about this that christians is the Is the pure reception of Judaism which itself is is a is the most ancient and least messed about with tradition that there is So that's the kind of argument that you get it also I mean it has a particular infection in christianity, which is quite interesting as well In fact, I sort of played a sail around and think this is a bit of an argument for my view of platinism in a way, which is that um There's a whole discourse within christianity that grows up from from the second century about heresy As a as a concept heresy versus orthodoxy And I think that you can see in in the people who talk about heresy that they're using exactly the same language That we've been using to talk about the argument from disagreements and the response to it with inflatism Namely you only get heresies where you get people going in some opposite directions away from some original truth And they never agree with each other again So heresies starts with the the notion of It really means faction But you get factions that split off from from some kind of original Truth makes the question, but okay, they think it's the truth But then they never agree with each other again. So that's how we know that heresies are problematic and and probably wrong That they just create disagreeing So I think that's a very important part of the christian reception of the platinist playbook on this So it works at a kind of macro level and a micro level So in within the christian tradition heresies can be branded as as can be sort of proved to be wrong by their innovative Nature their lateness their failure to establish agreement that on the contrary to create disagreement Um, so that's on the micro level but then on the macro level they can start to say well in fact because christianity and The hebrew christian tradition is the most ancient the most pure tradition all these other ones We can think of as being themselves kind of quasi heretical divisions off from it. So Egyptian religion is is a sort of it's kind of a heresy and in a in a big historical perspective it's a division off from Judaism which has created these disagreements and so is greek culture and so you get these Culture wars based on this big argument now about about the genealogy of of these mythological traditions and christian heresy and logical writing is very interesting for that reason because it does Spend a weird amount of time if you don't see this picture I think it spends a weird amount of time aligning the heresies with mistakes that the pagan nations have made A few observations It's very interesting that you were talking about how calces is viewing christianity as an offshoot of an abomination of an offshoot of another older tradition and I think the strange ingenuity of christianity was to ultimately take that and it culminates in somebody like Constantine who effectively invents the concept of christian progress by saying that this hebraic christian tradition is the original way man was before the corruption because Constantine was living in a time where rome has this kind of idea of decline and fall and restoration and renewal But there's no concept of restoration and renewal like with the christian god So constantine has to kind of do what the theologians and the christian philosophers are doing and say No, this is the natural state of how people were before and i'm just restoring it and this is what people like tation are doing maybe in a more polemical sense where they're calling the greek deities demons for lack of a better term This is a very good example. So you're what you're seeing there is an explanation of how you get the greek tradition It's not like and it's a corruption of the the hebra. So there are angels. It's quite true Right, um, but what the greeks Forgot is that there there's a god above them So they start worshiping the angels call them demons now, but we worship those Inignorance and so you've got a whole explanation for how this corruption happened as well as just an assertion which is What interesting just the concept of the heresy illogical writings And the heresiologists themselves what they're doing with tracing these heresies back to founders and Quotum quote teachers is not unlike what deogenes laertes is doing with the philosophical schools, right? heresis, um, I think you can translate heresis as school They're finding the original founder of this school and they're creating a succession just like they're creating their own Counter succession of apostolic authority what they're doing is not any different than what the Platonists and other Philosophical schools have been doing in terms of tracing that succession. It's quite interesting if we kind of get into this in terms of Looking at these heresies as Gnostic or not if you ask any scholar who specializes in these Gnostic and heresiological schools nobody's always going to agree with Labeling these groups Gnostic because even if you put a term Gnostic on top of these groups It obscures the fact that not everybody even in these other So-called divergent groups aren't they're not necessarily always agreeing with each other So like even there you have disagreement in these groups. Well, george. Thank you so much I'm a great scholar. Thank you for having me. You have a wonderful evening. You say thanks very much. Yes. Thank you. Goodbye