All right. Good evening. We're going to see that we have a quorum of town council members present I call the second third meeting of the town council to order at 629 Welcome all this meeting is being broadcast live and being recorded by Amherst media Copies of the agenda are in the back of the room and if at any point you like to they're not Okay We'll make sure they are in the future. Thank you We will be Showing the agenda on the screen in a minute Thank you Are there any announcements by either members of the council or the town manager at this time? Councillor Haneke I just thought I'd make an announcement that the town council rules and procedure committee We'll be holding its first meeting tomorrow night at 7 p.m. at the bang Center I'm sorry at the bang Center at the bang Center. Okay? All right. Are there any other announcements? Okay There are no resolutions and proclamations at this time. So we're going to move on to public comment How many people are here to do to? Make public comment, okay? And we are going to actually now start by asking people who make public comment to sign in this helps us come back and Get in touch with you if we need to clarify a point if you'll come forward to the mic make sure you press the button so that it works Please and you do have to continue to hold the button down Well, I It's it looks green. That's fine. That's excellent. Okay Ready Hello everybody. I'm Carol Johnson. I'm the director of the emmer cinema I've met many of you and hope to know all of you I'm here to tell you a little bit about the cinema and to make a fervent plea You should have in your packet a two-page letter from me and with a map attached I Think many of you know we are an independent nonprofit We have a four-screen theater located in downtown emmer's that's been operating since Thanksgiving 2006 We now show about 275 different programs a year in over 20 languages Our main focus is first-run film, but we also do a lot of other Special events film series filmmakers visits Collaborations with nonprofits. We have an education program for school children. We do a lot of things We sell about 115,000 tickets a year. That's an average of 2200 a week and I Want to assure you that all of our programming decisions are made in emmer's By people who love film We're not governed by a national organization. We're Totally independent and make all of our decisions here We are a regional arts Organization and that's really the point of the map if you take a look at it What you'll see is a lot of blue dots Those dots represent our members who as you can tell from the map come from a lot of places and The main point I want to make tonight is that They're mostly driving here if you're coming from Peter sham or Worthington or Leiden or Windsor, Connecticut you're driving Most of our audience members do not walk they don't ride their bicycles They don't even take public transportation although we are very accessible via all those means and surprisingly our Audience members do not consist of a huge number of students our busiest times are January February over the holidays and into the first part of the year and the summer and we do a lot of special events in the fall and the spring We're attracting people from At least 25 miles away, and we have people telling us that they're coming from very very far away So the main point I would like to make is that parking That the P word is really important to us and when we hear comments from patrons whether they're coming from chickapee or Amherst or wherever the main complaint we have is about parking So my fervent plea to you is as you plan the future of our Fair town if you would please Do two things one is preserved as many parking spaces as possible and The other is think about the long-term vitality of our town and what really makes it a vital place Even in this era of self-driving cars perhaps Those cars once they drop you off are going to need a place to go and what makes a place a really vibrant community is Having people they're walking around and we would love to be a part of a Continued vibrant downtown in Amherst, so if you would Look to preserve as many parking spaces as possible on our streets in our lots in the North Common every place that you can think of and think about a vision for Amherst that Provides many more parking spaces than we have now We love our downtown and we really want to be a part of it. I would be really happy to take questions if you have any now or That's not permitted If you don't have time for that. I am very happy to have Coffee or lunch or whatever with any of you so my contact information is on the letter I'd be really happy to meet with you Thank you for your comments. All right. Is there anyone else that wishes to speak at this time? The next item on the agenda is hearings. We have an unscheduled tonight, so we're going to proceed on To presentations and discussions but actually on to action items Though there'll be a discussion throughout these action items we want to make sure that The People have plenty of time to look at them so the first one is is Looking at the proposed standing committees of the council and in your packet. I distributed the following comments I've included both the list of committees and on a separate attachment Attempted to include all the relevant references to the charter pertaining to that committee I'm not going to suggest. I didn't miss one. I'm certainly might have The words in the charges are now aligned with the language of the charter Although there clearly will be additions that are not referenced in the charter There are obviously Overlaps in the work of some committees for example both the finance committee and the community development committee We'll have a strong interest in capital inventory and capital improvement programs But they will be expected to communicate and collaborate However, I have proposed assigning discrete items to each committee that doesn't mean that's the only committee that will ever address any of That it just means that at least we know where it's a basic home is and Finally, no committee structure is without its flaws However, after our discussion and amendments, I hope we will move forward on these knowing that they may change in the future If we look at other town councils and other city councils, they restructure sometimes as much as every year So I'm going to start by asking for a motion To adopt the four proposed standing committees and a second and then we will move into some editorial Changes which do not require a motion, but then there are a couple others that I'm aware of as well Yeah, I have a motion. I just have a question if you want to consider each separately Rather than as a set. I don't know how I make a motion You would move to take the item that each committee as Individually and if you'd like to do that, that's fine Yes Yeah, I don't Would this is the appropriate time for a Motion or would it be after Discussion we have to have a motion since it's on the agenda as action and then we have discussion after we've had the motion So in order to proceed with a motion With the discussion we have to have a motion on the floor. Yes, councilor Brewer So without having rules that state that I actually think we have some flexibility there in terms of the only reason I would say that is if it was a very cut and dried Yes, of course, we're gonna do this then motion boom one comment boom vote easy But when names of committees might get changed in addition to the content of the committee based on our discussion tonight Even though it sounds like you don't want to have a huge discussion about that It might make more sense so that then it kind of at the end of the discussion We can say somebody moves it as amended and then you're not having to have Numerous conversations about altering the original motion. So in the absence of more defined rules Since council Brewer is one of the people on the rules committee the Let's move this then as it is in a presentation a discussion And so at this point we're not entertaining a motion. So it's the floor is open for discussion May I suggest a couple of changes that have to be made? In order to have this read more accurately in the finance committee in item 3 a It should read one in parentheses one councilor not have an S In item B It should say no more than two councillors at an S And an item C no more than two councillors at an S Yes, I Was just going to suggest that maybe we take each section at a time so that our Conversation doesn't split it since we don't have a motion so that we're not jumping between Potential committees so at this point given that and the suggestion was made over here as well Let's just stick to the finance committee Comments questions discussion. Yes, councillor hannacky. I have one other Scrivener type comment and that is in the 3a section the charter actually calls it the participatory Budgeting Commission not budget Commission. Thank you It called it the participatory budget the budget coordinating group Just could participatory budgeting Commission Instead of budget the word budgeting With an ing Okay Yes councillor Pam well, I see the comment that you wrote about the Capital inventory and capital improvement program and infrastructure Being something that will be debated and discussed by several committees So I'm suggesting that it be that it stay in the committee development sustained sustainability committee where you had it last week so that we could discuss things in a policy way and we could Suggest things and deal with that that of course It would also be in the finance committee because the finance committee would be dealing with questions of how do you pay for it? And I think both committees would be concerned with prioritization, but from different angles So my suggestion is that it be in both committees Yeah, I'm sorry Excuse me, I have a cold so please go ahead. So if I may ask could you tell me Exactly which What that was again, okay? Well, when we originally got the committee of the description of community development and sustainability committee It Had the words. Let's see if I can't I use the word capital assets and infrastructure, right? we're in that committee connect with other questions of land use and Then at our last meeting a suggestion was made that maybe that really belonged in the finance committee And I think we can agree that aspects of capital Assets and infrastructure really belong in both committees to be discussed as a policy matter in the community development sustainability committee and then of course looked at as a major item in the finance committee Sustainability has different meanings in different contexts when you're talking about the finance committee Would be looking at that perhaps in what it costs to keep the building running As well as its energy costs overall But I do think it would be a mistake not to have it in the community development sustainability committee For discussion in a policy way. I'm sorry councillor sheen. I Have a comment on The substance of what's in finance right now. I like the way it's drafted very much and My comment is interactive with the joint capital planning committee So in 3b it says no more than two counselors of this committee and I would like to make it two counselors would So two of them go on but it's interactive with when we get to discussion of joint capital planning committee and Alyssa and councilman councilwoman or councillor Brewer and Steinberg can Correct me on this, but the joint capital planning committee used to have to select board and to from finance and I think a structure there that had to from town council who weren't on finance and to who were on finance Would give us a robust group on the overall town council Thinking about our capital needs and pipeline So the only suggestion I'm making here is that we say to counselors from finance would go on it But that's because later. I want to suggest that there are four people To from finance and to from town council on the joint capital planning. So it's interactive with that Which isn't a standing committee. It's a of the council Okay, I'd like to actually go back to councillor Pam's Suggestion that the capital inventory and capital improvement program appear in both the finance and the community development and stick with that and then we'll come back to yours Councillor Ross Just a point of order. I think right now. We're just talking about the finance committee, right? So perhaps we should limit the conversation to finance committee and move on to community development next that's fine So in other words at this point the question would be do we leave it in finance? Okay, so then I want to go back to the other question that has been brought forward Again, it may relate to more than just this committee though And that is that they're on the joint capital planning committee There would be both to people from finance and to other counselors as well That's in essence councillor Shane, right? If the change here would be instead of it saying up to two it would just say two So I am trying to focus just on finance but explaining that reasoning that later when we discuss this other one Okay, it wouldn't be just the finance people being on it. It would be two other counselors Okay It does seem that you would also strike the not more than two on the next line as well in C and just say two counselors If you want me to react on that one actually the drafted draft version of the joint of The budget coordinating committee doesn't have a number of members at all. So I Mean we could when we get up to that. Is it just fun, you know, so I that one I had a less Strong recommendation because it had no members no count of people Okay, in this particular case, however, am I correct on this counselor Anarchy that the Charter does require that there be two counselors The Charter on participatory budget budget the Charter requires one counselor on the participant Participatory budgeting Commission. The Charter has no indication as to how the town council will fill the JCPC and budget coordinating group Slots that we might decide the council has So originally this read at least one counselor counselor Steinberg I The reason I'm hesitant to have too many people from the council on join capital planning committee and Also Are cautious about taking the lesson of the past and applying it to the future There's a couple things one is the finance committee Was a in its prior rendition was a committee of the town meeting appointed by the town moderator for the purpose of advising town meeting on budget issues and the select board was the executive in our Government and so the in the executive was being read was what the representation from the select board was the purpose of the committee is To advise on and to review the budget proposals from the various groups that present their various capital and needs and There needs to be a sense of fairness in the So so it really amounted to two things that I think that we as a council need to think about and responding on this issue one is to remember that This is a committee that's going to be reporting back to us in the final decision on the capital budget is Going to be determined by the council so having a committee that's advisory to us that it has What might appear to some to be an imbalance of council members could make people representing the schools in the libraries feel that they're being overwhelmed from the start within the process and It is important that The library representatives from the trustees and the school representatives from the school committee feel that they have an equal chance to Present and have their capital needs considered Are there further comments on the discussion with regard to the number of counselors that would be on JCPC? Or at this point we can just leave it that it's to from finance and then go on to the other committees Councilor hannacky So if we're not sure we're going to change the number of counselors on JCPC I At this point if that might remain to I'm hesitant to say they both have to come from JCPC In a sense because of what counselor Shane said of it might be good to have a counselor That's not on finance on JCPC to have a different view So if we would if we don't end up Enlarging the JCPC council representation Then I don't want both of them to have to come from finance So I would be against changing the wording at this point Okay, other comments on finance Yes, councillor Steinberg. I just so you're aware there was one other issue that I raised and I asked our clerk to Check into the matter and apparently there's at this point still not an answer to the question and that is whether the Members of the finance committee who are not from the council Need to be considered for special municipal employee status or not because of their non-voting status and as I understand that The the clerk has made inquiry with the ethics commission counsel on that. There's not an answer yet, but She could answer that better. I just wanted to alert the council to that issue that I identified So if we find out later that they need to be SMEs are special means special municipal employees will have to come back and amend that Okay, we're still on finance councillor Hanna key. So I just read the sentence for number three again Should we actually indicate that the residents are non-voting members in that sentence? So the committee shall system five consist of five councillors as voting members and it right now it says and for residents Should we add the phrase as non-voting members? I mean the charter covers it, but it would be clear than here, too Got her other other comments or discussion on finance Let me tell you where I think we are and I want to check we're not asking for a vote We're just checking on this before we move on. So in the item in finance committee number two at the end of the sentence where it says For residents it would say for residents as non-voting members period Okay, on item 3a we have struck the s at the end of councillors So it says one councillor on Item B at this point. We are leaving it open because we're going to come back to it and on item C I Believe it should read at least one councillor From this committee will represent the council on the participatory budgeting commission you said Councillor Hannocky you said that so section C is the budget coordinating group Section a is participatory budgeting which also needs to add the Title change Thank you. Thank you. I Misunderstood that. Thank you. So a is where we eliminate It's one councillor and it says participatory budgeting commission and on item C It I'm sorry does the Charter require two people on no on the budgeting Budget coordinating group. No, so the question really before the council is should it be at least one or should we say two? thoughts I Actually think it's fine. I think it's fine is written. No more than two. Are we ready to move on to the next one? Community Development and Sustainability Committee this we're just in discussion at this point So far the only comment I have heard that carries over from the previous conversation is That this committee should also have a role to play in Capital inventory and capital improvement program Councilor Brewer, I realize that we went around in some I wouldn't say circles, but we had some extensive discussion about what was then called the Planning and Economic Development Committee It's now referred to as Community Development and Sustainability Committee, and I think it's a mistake I don't think we should use the words community development at all and there's a reason for that Hoping that someone would explain maybe what it would meant and therefore we can come up with an alternative We have a community development block grant advisory committee. We cannot possibly have another committee called community development I suppose we could change the block grant community development block grant advisory committee to block grant advisory or something But pretty much across the state. They refer to it as community development block grant advisory So without getting into that whole Situation I wonder I appreciate the sustainability being brought into the title because I know we talked about that at length But I wonder if either we want to include the master plan reference in there as as part of the whole Umbrella for the whole thing and that could substitute for the concept of community development Which is also mentioned in item one when it says economic and community development And I'm just since until someone explains what community development means in this context I guess I'd like those words dropped. So do you have a specific title you would like to see on this committee? I'm pretty sure mr. Schreiber is going to come up with Actually, I hit the if I may please okay, so I did call you I mean I think you that's a good I think community development is a term of art that I don't think community development block grants own that it's like But really my comment was going to be that I don't think sustainability should be separated as a Should all be sustainable. So if we're going to put the word sustainability in there, I would support something like sustainable community development or No, no, you have my wheel spinning but development and conservation also works standard old development and conservation because it's not all about developing it's also about conserving Councillor Pam I I have to admit I got a little confused with that Are you saying that the committee should not say as is and set what number one? Advise the town council on all matters relating to planning zoning and land use I understand you want more explanation of economic and community development But did you take out planning zoning and land use? No No, I've not I have not heard anybody taking that out. Yeah, so so could you restate what you said? I did get confused Okay. Yes. Oh, I was only talking about the title. I wasn't talking about the functions I was suggesting something like sustainable excuse me sustainable development and conservation so nothing about the actual I was still at the bold letters So the two issues on this particular committee that seemed to be on the table is They are the title itself and The second is the issue of adding in capital inventory and capital improvement program other discussion Yes, Councillor Boehme Boehme. I Was just wondering as we are creating and organizing these committees if we have a strategic vision as a council and if the committees should be organized around the goals that we have in pushing that and And we talked a little bit about maybe the master plan being that document that lays out the priorities for that And so I took a look at the master plan right now and it does have certain certain goals like which are part of the economic development which include university relations which Councillor Shane had recommended last time including Making that part of our sustainability and economic development committee. There is housing Transportation Services and facilities maintaining the quality of services and that down Open space and recreation So there is like, you know all these different categories and I wonder if those Become part of this economic development and Sustainability committee The at the last meeting it was suggested that we just call this master plan It did seem to again be directly identified with the existing master plan I Did include review proposed master plan updates as an item to as a way of trying to encompass all of that But we can certainly be more specific Yes, Councillor Dumont I Also, I would like to repeat my concern that I mentioned the last time at our last meeting Number one Advise the town council on all matters related to this list of topics. I Would look I can see Number two, I Have more trouble with number one because it again, it feels like an additional hoop that matters would need to Get through in order to get to the full council I Could see it as possibly An entity that could carry out tasks that were given to it by the council To research a particular issue and come back to us or something like that but I don't like it as written Because it feels like a barrier more than a Something that will assist the council Okay, comments Councillor Shane I want to second that thought because I also started to look as since we're on the rules and procedures of The council and so when starting to look at other towns, they all have these committees and what I've seen is the language is often Rather than advice. It's the place the town council refers things to you know, this is we need a special study here There's a set of issues we need to address so its origin is the council Down to the committee and then the committee is reporting back with recommendations Rather than flowing up from the committee and I like that that structure So if we you know, I can imagine a PBTA a bus route change that's coming to us And we want to think about it. We can refer it to this committee to figure out what we should do about it or Licensing fees, I don't yet, but it's reversing the Authority coming from the council back down to the committees. So so it's an issue of I Mean in order for the committee To deal with this the council would need to assign something to it and they in turn the committee would come back and advise Okay I'm open to a word change Upon referral. Yes councillor striber Well, one step would be to remove the word all so just advise the town council on matters Because all really implies Okay, other Yes, councillor Hanna key first So like councillor Dumont, I've been struggling with what That this committee specifically would do to help The town council because I don't I guess with this wording are this is this the committee that's Sort of investigating by law changes that relate to Everything listed which is probably going to be nearly every by law change Whereas I see that better sitting in the legislative matters committee So, you know And with the review the proposed master plan updates And my comment was what does this actually mean updates that come to it from the planning board under The charter nine point eight F review or nine point eight G Are they looking at the master plan to make updates that would then get referred to the planning board I guess I'm still not quite Really comprehending exactly what this committee would do versus some of the other committees that we're proposing So just although this is taking this out of order If you look at the sheet that you were given this in your folder with the changes Under governance organization and legislation committee we've added a number two and it says review proposed by law changes and additions For form content Organize and organization to assure the bylaws are clear and concise with the town code the word town code is just a Use term at this point. It's the town bylaws But the Again, you go back to these committee. There's often interlocking things and there's no way you're going to avoid that interlocking In fact in some towns That I have read Everything that is done goes back through the governance organization and legislation committee It's and in this case what I've tried to do is at least only make those things that would be Changes in bylaws So the issue going back to your question Councillor Hanna key is I Would see the for the moment we're calling it Development and sustainability committee dealing with the substance the coordination trying to help to bring together a collaborative looking plan obviously Much of it vested in the master plan But if there's actually then bylaw changes, they would have to go to the bylaw to the governance committee Councillor Hanna key so That sounds to me like you see it as a potential policy recommending committee Is that what I'm hearing from you that it could be They would be looking this committee would be looking at policies that the council might adopt it could certainly if it's going to look at Master plan at some point it's going to look at Policies and then bylaws Councillor bullman It's more of a question than a response to councillor Hanna keys question and the questions brought up here relevance of this committee that What I what many of us heard in our campaigns was the the problems that local doctors professionals local businesses encountered as businesses and What what are some of the challenges? So I think we do need a folk Oops, we do need a focus a committee focused on looking at some of the issues that our local businesses professionals startups encounter and In also to ensure that this is in alignment with our vision of the character of emmerced and all of the other things that we heard so having a committee to really focus in on collecting that information doing the research and Reporting back to the big town council So that's your observation about this committee Councilor yes, I think it's it's an important Role this committee can play councillor I Don't disagree that that is an important thing for the council to talk about I don't think this committee needs to exist I think this committee can exist at some point in the future when we figure out what the things are that we need to assign to it Like that idea like the master plan But it's a mistake to assign ourselves to something that we don't actually have anything to refer to it yet We have other bodies that actually need to get going like finance committee JCPC rules of procedure Etc. And as long as I feel confident that someone's bringing us some form of Sustainability committee before too long so that we don't lose sight of that I'm really uncomfortable with creating a structure That is just there because other communities have it and we think we might want it some day But it's not actually directly related to what Mitch Spalman now Socerily said whereas we might very well want to work on that particular issue much sooner than this committee Actually is just like the kitchen sink committee at this point And I'm really uncomfortable with that particularly if we're going to you know if we are gonna have it We definitely need to not just say on matters that needs to be on matters referred to it Which might for example include these various things, but I just don't see why we needed it all at this point I can see us needing it a few months from now Councillor Schreiber So I'm gonna plus one that comment which is it may be premature for this that I'd rather see What the workflow is and we can you know as you know We can add standing committees at any time or ad hoc committees at any time But it most importantly, I don't think we want to undermine or cancel out the work done by the other town Boards committees commissions whatever they're called of which there are dozens all Many of whom are actually looking at some of the issues that have been discussed here. So, you know, we know that the planning boards Purview is you know, they're the keepers of the master plan and the master plan updates could be initiated by them with our Participation, but we don't we really don't want to undermine. We want to support and encourage all the work that's done by All of the other committees in town and maybe add other committees or reorganize those Other comments Councillor D'Angelo's um, I'm feeling differently I feel like this is an opportunity for us to slow down Some of the committee work that's being done or Decisions that are made independently by committees that have a huge impact on the community And so I see this Group as being In-depth researchers on particular topics. So if we're going to look at Inclusionary zoning that we have we really investigate that if we're going to change the master plan We need to work together on what the definitions are how we're going to apply them And I feel like each committee in town works independently and everybody's sort of saying oh, it's not the design review point Team that's gotten in the way. It's planning board didn't listen. I Want to end that by having some way of looking at things holistically which we don't do in embers Council Pam I Totally support what you say During the campaign we heard from so many people a sense of confusion as to the direction that things were going and We're in an interesting time when we are moving ahead and there's progress in the 21st century and we have Plans and changes that are happening But we need to have it some place where we can sit and talk about it to look at the whole and to think about Where what needs to be forwarded and what needs to be perhaps slowed down or rethought? So that we have a stronger sense of where we are and where we're going other comments Councillor hannacky I Think you guys the two of you are both right that we need to have a committee that looks holistically at something maybe as the council has some Proposal in front of it. It might be good to then refer it to a place where you could do all that in-depth research So that that doesn't sit on all 13 of us necessarily But I'm still struggling as Councillor Brewer and and Councillor Schreiber are with right now We don't but I just don't see what we have for this committee at this point Versus if there's a proposal that comes to us from say the transportation advisory committee or the planning board for a review of a Master plan that at that time maybe we can create an ad hoc committee that does it and go from there to see how well it works before we You know as a referral before we then have that big discussion I think I At least even if I'm not on that committee want to have a on these proposals a discussion within the town council as a whole too On that holistic approach, so I don't want to farm it out to just a committee for those discussions either But I would love to have a committee that looks at it in depth to give us a background for that those discussions I just don't see where That falls right now with the work that is getting done or coming to us now And so I feel like we need a chance to figure out a little bit more about how this committee might work in the future And it could start as an ad hoc or a standing one once it has something assigned to it additional comments Councillor Bowman I'm not arguing about the I'm not sure about the timing of this committee But I think it needs to be a standing committee and not an ad hoc committee just because the importance of economic development That's a foundation for this community for our town and to have that holistic vision and to continue to Support our businesses our professionals housing all of those issues. I think this needs to be a standing committee additional comments Councillor Shane I Just want to lend my voice to I Don't think there's disagreement that we might want to have a committee like this It may be that we don't want to set it up right now It would be better if we set it up when we have specific things we want it to do because otherwise We're going to have to keep adding other sentences to it what I've heard we want to add transportation and permits And I think there is a lot of work to be done But we don't want to have five counselors have to start meeting to figure out what it is They're working on the first two months. They're meeting it would be nice if we had a specific thing We wanted to sign I could see getting this up and running right away I know I'm just worried that we will all find ourselves in lots of meetings trying to figure out what we're meeting on if the Committee doesn't already have a clear per immediate purpose and something it needs to do in the next couple months So I'm hearing Councillor Pam, okay There just are there are so many things that could be discussed in this committee In terms of looking trying to look at the whole There's economic development. There is the whole matter of looking and evaluating Some of the plans for the downtown for the parks These are all things that the whole council will have Votes on that will be part of whole council discussions But they require a lot of detailed looking at and study and it just it made sense to me that there This was a good suggestion for a committee where we could look at these issues And we could try to be a little bit more holistic and think about You know, there are other places to look at it but like sidewalks roads and parking as part of looking at how things are being Planned and developed in the town Councillor Schreiber so One way to start is to make this a committee of 13 So basically have the committee by making it a committee of the whole and so then we can at least see how The committee structure because what I've heard is that almost everybody wants to be involved in these discussions So if it's a committee somewhere between five and 13 counselors Then we have the committee on the books and we have a way of you know, we have a way of starting other other comments Councillor Hanna key is thinking that For the purposes of tonight's discussion. It sounds like we're not quite even settled on what the language would be In order if we're looking to actually establish committees tonight that for this Maybe there'll be others that were not quite settled on language too But it sounds like versus the finance committee that this one. We're really struggling with what it should say and so I I've at this point maybe leaning towards Potentially striking it for tonight's meeting and bringing it back and maybe there's a few counselors that could look at coming up with robust wording that might Include all of it. Whatever that's assigned to one person. So there's no actual formal committee to it Or assigned to a couple that would then have to meet in open meeting to discuss and hash it out I don't know but might it might be more prudent to strike it tonight and have it come back on our next agenda after a Counselor or two really thinks about the potential wording Councillor Ryan I'd like to second that notion. We clearly are not of one mind or even close My understanding is we're going to try to Gather next month and talk about some gold setting and and have more general conversations Sounds to me like we really need to have those conversations before we're going to be able to settle this particular issue It's constantly you said maybe we'll have trouble with some of the others as well But they seem more focused this one is all over the map and we're all over the map So I would suggest we take it out We will be talking over the next month and I think other settings And I think we just need to talk some more and here what each other has to say So I propose taking this out and Are there other comments on this one before we move on? Yes, councilor. I agree with the councilor Hanna gay Councillor Ryan that once we have other meetings where we hash out our priorities as our strategic vision as a town council Then out of that we can see what you know, what are the other committees and I'm sure this will You know, this can be hashed out more there But just saying it's an important one and I'm not letting go of it Okay So the general what I'm hearing from some counselors is the need for something like this But that there's a definitional problem and what I'm hearing from other counselors is that therefore we should defer on this committee We're not voting at this point. We're moving on to the next committee Okay Communications outreach and appointments committee last last week when we discussed this it was actually Pieces of this were in two different committees instead. We combined them to be communications outreach and appointments and The appointments was brought over from a different committee. I will tell you that this is a committee We do need because we now have several appointments coming up Councillor Brewer Some edits I think would be helpful in section two appointments item B needs to be split into two items Therefore we would have ABC and D because it is not appropriate to just blend those two concepts together in terms of the candidates for employment as department heads and Appointments to boards and committees. We just need to separate that out They're not in the same sentence in the charter and they need to be broken apart So it's quite clear when people glance at this what that's for Then when we do that, can we just pause for that a moment and I just want to clarify Review and advise the council on all candidates forwarded by the town manager for employment as department heads That would be one of the eyes the second one would be the same for appointments to boards and commissions in accordance with your charter Exactly, so there were two pieces to that one right so that way we now have an ABC and D and the other comment I wanted to make associated with that in terms of us training ourselves Just as we're still trying to figure out how we're referring to each other which honorifics we're using I would like us to stop using board and commission at this point in our time And you know we may revisit that in the future, but there are boards their committees their commissions They are not exactly interchangeable because commissions often have legal authority that other committees do not I would really like it to say what it says in the charter, which is the incredibly boring yet Effective multiple member bodies. That's what they are. They are not boards committees commissions task forces working groups There are multiple member bodies as defined as multiple member bodies in the charter Okay, and that that's a substitute for the word boards and commissions. Okay, multi-member bodies Multiple member bodies Are there other discussion points? Councillor bowman So one other observation, I think many of us made was the the difficulty of getting diverse communities to participate and Inclusion and I was wondering if this is the committee that's gonna Do some kind of research or work with the community participating officers to figure out what are the challenges institutional barriers social challenges individual challenges that Different communities have in participating in our government If 1b refers specifically to the community participation officer and that is in fact one of the many responsibilities Councillor Haneke I actually just have a bunch of edits that are non-substantive really In section 1a the referral to section 2.13 should probably also refer to section 5.3, which is where the Finance budget public forum is mentioned in the charter. Yeah Both section 1b and the new 2d are missing. Oh and the new Probably b and c in section 2 are missing periods at the end of their sentences So it's 2a I guess and if you're splitting out b and c which I actually agree with Alyssa I was gonna consular Brewer. I was gonna make the exact same request including the multiple member body reference Make sure this charter references are split appropriately to yeah So it's 211 a and 211 b 11 a refers to a Department heads and 11b refers to multi multiple member bodies Okay Other comments questions Discussion councillor Shane just building on what councillor Bob millen was saying about trying to bring in people for appointments where we're really trying to get broad participation, I think the word outreach is clearly here, but it's referring more to District meetings and outreach to residents. I don't know exactly. I'm not good at wordsmithing But on appointments if we added something else on Figuring out if we have a strategy to broaden the outreach to encourage people to apply You know, so it's applying for the appointment so that we get a diverse group coming in So it's outreach both in us reaching out to our constituents, but it's also on appointments thinking about how so it just needs to be worded, you know Also come up with strategies or suggestions on how to broaden that outreach So I like this committee a lot and I think it's very clear what it would be doing and just conceptually Trying to think of a group trying to work with the town manager figure out. How do we broaden that participation? So under 1a after the word and other strategies to broaden participation comment ensure transparency ensure regular trend and Transparency communication and outreach something like that. I'm more than willing to listen to other wordsmithing council Brewer So one of the things we insert there. I think to help reflect that is we didn't mention the resident advisory The residents advisory committee whose job it is to be appointed by the town manager to do those things And so I'm not sure where that fits But just as the community participation officer is not owned by the council is owned by the town manager as Is the residents advisory committee? but some reference to them and the fact that interaction will take place between those groups and That is also referenced in the charter under C miss Hanna key probably has been handy. I'm sorry Section 3 3 C So that would possibly become B and then C would become the community participation officer So that it would read work with the resident advisory committee committee as outlined in the charter Section 3.3 C and then that the next one would be Item C B would become C Got it Excellent. Thank you Additional comments on this one Okay, let me try to summarize what I think we have said in 1a We are referring to We want to add into this including other strategies to broaden participation Comment ensure regular communication regular and transparent communications and outreach to the residents of Amherst And that the reference there is not only section 2.13, but also section 5.3 B, I'm going to would now be work with the resident advisory committee as outlined in the charter section 3.3 C and And the what was formerly B would become C and that is work with the community participation officer or officers as outlined in the charter sections 3.3 D then down below there is a Splitting of what was B to become B and C B would read service the committee to review and revise the council and all candidates forwarded by the town manager for employment as department heads the reference there is section 2.11 a And then a new would say new C would say serve as the committee to review and revise the council on all candidates forwarded by the town manager for appointment to multiple member bodies in accordance with the charter and that reference would be section 2.11 B and then what was C becomes D? Is there any other? Comments yes, counselor Hanna key. I don't know what counselor Ross was going to say This is the only time in this document in sections now 2.2 B and C that we say just counsel Instead of town council. Okay, so I would recommend the change to town council Code that is both for B and C Okay, counselor Ross was that your okay, counselor Ross I Had a question, but I realized it's outside the scope of this conversation. So I'm going to hold it. Thank you Other questions comments. Yes Just a terrifying question. So under the new 2.2 B Or 2 C is it just for the town manager's recommendation for appointments? Or are you going to look at your is this committee going to handle your own appointments to say the zoning board or planning board? Excellent question. Yes, it's covered in a Okay Editing and public is fun Um I don't know if someone can answer this question about the organization of the committees that the town manager is appointing Are they reporting to the town manager? I'm just trying to understand the work that these committees do where do they get turned in and And I'm asking that because one of the concerns I heard from people who are hesitant to participate in the committees Is they feel they put in the work and then it doesn't go anywhere? And so I'm just wondering in terms of organization of the flow of information and work Where does the work of the committees go to and and what happens to it? Mr. Bachman, do you want to start with that one or would you like me to start sure? It sort of depends what the committee is and how it was formed If it's for instance the planning board their work would go directly to the council Other committees would flip the that work is designed to be Executive in order and it would go through the town manager's office and then be presented to the council which would then Give it to a subcommittee and come back or whatever And I think I saw in one town where each of the town council committees was also I don't know how they organize it because here are the town managers at point and like you said they're executive committees So there but in one town the the town council committee was overseeing Each of or somehow was ensuring like maybe the economic development Which is looking for housing is also sort of checking in with the housing committees, and I don't know if that's something We want to consider that actually gets us back into the committee that we've decided to differ or that we the discussion is to differ Okay, at some point in the future. We'll see whether or not people feel a need for that kind of committee Although we'll vote tonight. Is there anything else on communication outreach and appointments committee? Yes, counselor. I'm sorry. I missed. I just wanted to make sure we changed the wording when you reworded See to multi multiple member bodies. I did okay at least in my scribbles. I have done that I also believe that our town clerk has done that too Okay, is there anything else on this one? All right. Yes I think as a general rule we need to look at the size of these committees So if all the ones that are on the table tonight approved of that's 20 committee slots divided by 13 counselors plus so we so I'm just wondering if there's a way to Make some of these less than five. I don't know what the right number is for so I know that other counselors thought that it should be an odd number because of Then you don't get a tie vote, but if These groups are only making recommendations to the full council. Maybe an even number is okay, but I just would be cautious of Making everything too big. Okay here at the start. Is there a further discussion on the issue of size? I think we should take a committee by committee so that on communication outreach and appointment right now I've written it as five. Is there further ideas about that? three or four commissioner Hanna councillor Hanna key and these committees are likely deemed multiple member bodies under the charter and section 9.12 D Says that all appointed multiple member bodies when established shall be composed of an odd number of members not less than three So I thought I'd point that out before we start discussing size So for the purposes of this discussion the lowest it can go to is three and the next number up would be five Is that correct? Thank you. Yes counselor. Yeah, I'm sorry Mr. Bachman I guess it's just a technical question if multiple if the council is exempt from multiple member bodies because the definition of multiple member bias It says it excludes the council That is a technical question that the charter commission if I put that hat on did not fully vet That the definition of multiple member bodies excludes the council, but does not actually exclude subcommittees of the council So that would probably be an interpretation Someone would need to make Would that be something something that our town council would our town attorney would I guess Counselor Brewer, I think it would be a really bad idea to redefine Council committees as not subject to the multiple member bodies rules because the multiple member bodies rules are the lovely ones that insist on Public comment in addition to open meeting law and basically it would it does not seem Sensible to me that we would have different kinds of committees that are almost exactly the same but not exactly There certainly can be bodies in the future that are not Multiple member bodies that are something that the town manager and his executive authority Can just decide to put together that aren't subject to open meeting law that aren't multiple member bodies He can have any even number of whatever that he wants for that But I think it would be a mistake to look at our committees as being other than multiple member bodies I don't think that's a road. We need to go down. So working on Working under an assumption in this case that we will Comply as if we are multiple member bodies in this case The these standing committees would be so the lowest number would be three and the next number would be five So the discussion on the table was whether or not we should reduce the size of this from five to three counselor Sorry counselor D'Angelo's no Okay, I think five is a good number and I think that so many of us are interested in all of these committees that I think reducing the number would be I Can't think of the right adjective. I was gonna say wasteful, but I don't think it I don't quite mean that Okay, counselor Pam. I forgot but somewhere it says how many members of the committee have to be there for the committee to meet So if you have only three as a form it would be you wouldn't be able to have a meeting a lot of the times The quorum would be to you're right. That's too small. Yeah So at this point Are we ready to move on to the next one? All right governance organization and Legislation committee, I will say that we have added in the draft that you're looking at item To which is to review proposed bylaw changes and additions for forum content and organization to assure that bylaw that bylaws That has to have an s are clear and consistent with the town code Again, the word in this case town code is just being used as a placeholder. We haven't really named our bylaws Number three number formerly number two would become number three and again. It says this committee shall consist of five counselors Discussion yes counselor Brewer So one of the great things about inventing these things from whole cloth is trying to figure out where we are and where We're going and so it feels to me that if we need this committee Which I suspect that we do from the standpoint that it looks like the way it reads is that if the planning board Proposed changing a bylaw it would be referred to us on this committee Possibly we not exactly sure on how that will work Before we would actually get into discussing it as a group of 13 in it. So there are is that there's also the current Bylaw review committee and there's also the current ad hoc rules of procedure committee So if we need this so circling back to where I started if we need this then I think we need to specifically call out those two bodies as being within Connected to this group in some fashion and then at some point when the work of both those bodies is done by law review may not be for a year Rules could be six months Then we can change alter the charge so that those things are no longer in there But this feels like at this point unless I'm misreading it the umbrella to what's actually happening already in two particular bodies Okay counselor Schreiber So this feels like two very different committees in two very different skill sets like one that is Sort of dealing with our internal organization And the other one the one that's in blue is almost one of the most important duties that we do You know consider and vote on basically policy So I'm actually wondering if in fact those shouldn't be two different committees now that I just said this whole thing about the lean and the mean but the but the in the way the blue the blue number two reads like a rules committee, so we like you know like the almost like a Executive board that would has special responsibility to you know to review and recommend proposed bylaws particularly the part about content so when you're making a When you're evaluating content, then you're really getting into They will be voting on You know three or two we don't like the content of this So it's an incredibly important function So may I just try to summarize what I think I'm hearing and that is governance organization and legislation You're suggesting would be Broken into two committees one would be governance and organization and it would basically deal with things like internal rules and so forth the second committee would be a Legislations committee and that was the one that would deal deal deal much more with bylaws It just feels like two very different. Excuse me. It just feels like two very different things Councillor Steinberg I Appreciated the president's responsiveness I made the suggestion about adding number two and I think I should explain why I Did and that was that when I was looking at it I was looking at it also in the context of the committee that we are not now talking about committee yet to be named and I was looking at these two committees together and feeling like A proposal that was going before that committee would also need to go before this committee the way it was written and What was the purpose of it going before two different committees? And that's why I put in What was really kind of the functions of the bylaw review committee that we've had? looking at bylaws on a temporary basis to help us get them into shape for our new form of government and Tried to isolate those functions in the review into a separate process Leaving the policy Totally in the hands of the committee that it was assigned to and So that was the What I was thinking about when I made that suggestion other comments council shame I Just want to build on The previous two comments I think we have two tasks in front of us and they're listed under here one has four people assigned to it right now Which is the rules and procedures of our own council and then two meetings ago? we decided not to just accept the edited bylaws but Assigned people to read them carefully and we didn't assign them and I see both of those a separate task that would be assigned To two different groups not necessarily this group So I want to raise the question of whether we need a larger Superstructure of a permanent committee right now called governance rather than one group assigned One group volunteering or assigned to work read the bylaws carefully and decide what we do and that's due within a year But it could be earlier and then the rules and procedures committee were due to do something in two months and finished by six months You know, so we have two immediate things that will require so the larger Legislative committees again in some other towns It's the area where when things come up that the council has to consider they refer it to this committee To take a look at it And it could come from another committee, but I don't know whether we have how those work yet So it doesn't originate in this group it gets referred what in a way these two things So I'm just wondering whether we need a permanent standing committee right now or we need two Temporary groups looking at these two tasks Other comments counselor counselor DeMond, I agree with councillor Shane and As I said at the last meeting I I Feel uncomfortable was number two the Content part of it because it feels like it is setting up an executive committee and I feels like it takes away from the current Standing committees and the ability of the full council to hear matters coming directly from the Standing Committee committees I Think that we we know I feel like we all were Voted to be the new legislators and that we should be the body that Decides on the content of legislation councillor hannacky so I Agree in substance with what with what councillor Shane said about we've got two committees at this point That are looking at in some sense the substance of what this committee on its paper Given councillor Steinberg's addition is set to do But I want to bring up what happens if say the planning board brings us a by-law change that substantive Where are we sending it at this point? Is it going to come to us as a council of 13 to begin that discussion and end that discussion all at once or do We as a council want a smaller group to initially look at at the substance of that for Some purpose and and I don't necessarily know what that purpose might be but do we want a smaller committee of the council reviewing substantive by-law changes when they are proposed either by another multiple member body in town or by residents because they can be proposed by residents or they can be proposed by councillors and Where where where do we want that function going because that Given the committee not to be named right now because we weren't sure how that one would be worded and given if we This one doesn't actually include any functions like that if something comes up and we can't necessarily plan on when that might happen What are we doing with that? councillor Ross I Agree with councillor hannacky. I think this is actually a really important committee, and I think it's important to be a standing committee Yes, I think right now there may be some overlap between our ad hoc rules committee and also By law review committee. I think there are also some important differences between them And I think of course the temporary nature of those other two committees Means that a standing committee would be really useful. I think it's important to some extent that when By law change or any type of legislation comes before the council It's first vetted To make sure that it's consistent with code, but even things like you know when I read content I don't necessarily think of necessarily the substance of the content, but it's all the necessary content there Maybe someone submits a proposed by law change That's missing a critical piece of information that it needs in order for it to be considered by the full council It wouldn't be efficient for the full council to go back and recommend that But I'm thinking in terms of promulgating bylaws all of the different components that go into it It would be useful just to have a committee that looks at it both for consistency But also for completeness before it's then forwarded to the council to be considered council Schreiber So this is kind of exciting Making the airplane while we're flying But I really have no idea that if I wanted a bylaw if I was really interested a bylaw No spitting on the sidewalk how I would even start that so I I think that so in the case of the planning board they have a zoning subcommittee, which is basically a number-two version of you know, what's being described so people when when either the planning board itself or you know community members propose bylaw changes it goes to that committee and They they try to work it to make it into a workable bylaw And they vote on everything that's described here and then it goes to the You know to the full planning board to then also To vote but I guess that process would work here that any proposed policy by law change would go first to this committee and then Only once vetted would come back to us Councillor Steinberg Yeah, I appreciated the comments from counselors to Mont and Ross and Because when I created put in the word content, I did not Intend for it to be the policy that was being discussed but whether the wording of the actual proposal was sufficiently clear to Not create confusion and to be capable of implementation and I think about two different bylaws that were adopted By the town meeting within the past couple of years who were fairly significant policy issues Where a lot of work had to be done and the select board kind of tried to take on that role a little bit of saying to the proponents Hey You might want to consider a change here Because it's not sufficiently clear. We weren't trying to in any way change the intent of the People who are bringing it forward but trying to make sure that it was worded in an appropriate fashion that it could be implemented and so that was the The purpose for which I use that word and it may not be sufficiently clear And I think we do need clarity in what we're putting forward here. So I'm Appreciate it being brought forward Councillor Dumont So are you suggesting that we change the word content to the word clarity? because content means Substance the substantive meaning Yes, councillor Steinberg, I mean the other I don't know that that Helps as much as maybe putting something in this tool to make it clear what we're not trying to do Which is to say But not the poll the underlying proposed policy or something like that So that we understand what it's not And I mean the example that I gave or One of the ones that I was referring to was the In part there were actually two parts to this zero energy Bylaw that came before town meeting then got revised and put and then went back to town meeting for adoption after a committee worked on it that included two of us were on the council now and One of it was is that it was because it was kind of written the way it was written and put together initially it had a lot of Problems with the clarity with which it was written So there was that and it was that part of it that I was thinking about for this committee It was a separate part that had to do with clarifying some policy issues With zero energy and that was not intended to be in my head to be in this committee so The word Content seems to be the issue here in that we don't mean to and change the intent of the bylaw But in fact to clarify it so form clarity and organization Yes, council Ross. I think that Obviously, we're all gonna have different ideas of what content means. I don't necessarily think content has to be substantive So for instance in the conversation we just had about the communications outreach and appointments committee I believe it was counselor Hanneke recommended adding a specific reference to the charter In in 1a to me that is a content change and that you are adding content But it doesn't and it doesn't necessarily relate directly to clarity But it doesn't have substantive changes. So I don't think that content necessarily Is indicative of something that's a substantive change as much as it it's something that might be necessary to include or useful to include for for consideration council Ryan I mean if the sentence ended in additions for form content and organization period then I would share the concerns that some have Expressed but it goes on to say to assure that bylaws are clear and consistent with the town code So that seems to just make it a bit more precise in terms of this is Looking at it strictly from the point of view making sure that the eyes are dotted and these are crossed And that's its purpose. It's not Designed to have a discussion about the substantive issues. It's just to make sure that it is in the proper form in the content And organization is such that it's consistent with town code. I Don't really see the need for word change here. I think it's pretty clear that it's not Set up as a policy setting entity at all Councillor Hanna key so, um, I Have a proposed rewrite But the with the consistent with the town code actually concerns me because there will be bylaw Proposals that are not consistent with the current bylaws and that's the exact reason they are being proposed because people want to change the bylaws so reviewing for consistency You know that type of consistency. I think it's a problem my I'm just going to read this sentence And this was taken From a prior version slightly Review bylaws orders and resolutions proposed for action by the town council For form content and organization to ensure they are clear consistent and actionable This may include consultation with the town attorney which would then allow the committee to Have that attorney opinion before it gets to the council if there's concern that there might not be something legal You could have that in there. I'm not sure the word clear consistent I'm not sure about the actionable. That's I think where we're trying to go with are they something that is Something that you could actually enact In a way that could be function functioning. So maybe clear consistent and functional I don't know I'm gonna ask you to read that again Please Councillor Hanna key review bylaws orders and resolution resolutions proposed for action by the town council for form content and organization to ensure they are clear consistent and I Had said actionable Functional might work. I think so Councillor D'Angelo says actionable actionable and then you also added and Then the second sentence. This may include consultation with the town attorney. Okay Councillor Brewer Several things one is I'm loathe to include the word order until we define what that is and we haven't done that yet And we're not a city council that throws orders around because we've never done that yet We might do that under the new rules of procedure But I would just like to drop that word for now and we can always come back and because bylaws and resolutions are what we know This would be working on orders. We can I think we could easily just drop. It's not yet part of our nomenclature in terms of content, I think we're gonna end up still having a Perhaps a little bit of difficulty with that from the standpoint that while I agree with what? Councillor Haneke just said I disagree with the idea that what it was trying to do was just do Making sure it with the eyes were dotted and then he's required. That's staff's job That's not any committee of the town council's job. That's staff's job We're not supposed to be sitting there making sure that it's letter B and subsection 5 and it's got a little Section for SME that no, that's not our job and that's not what a counselor should be spending their time doing but if it's It is looking at substance from the standpoint that Does it have a clear picture the consistency the clarity issue? And I think we have to remind ourselves that None of these and maybe we need to add words that specifically say this although it's certainly mentioned on the powers and duties page Referring something to this body doesn't mean it goes into a black hole So referring something to this body means this body then needs that body needs to report to this body and say So we got this thing and it really didn't make any sense so we sent it back and That's why you haven't heard more from us about it or we got this thing We see this part of it needs some work. What do y'all think should we be working on this further? Should we ask them to talk to this other committee? What should we do? It's going to be absolutely incumbent on this body that we are Appointing to report back to this body quite regularly I think from what it says under powers and duties as to what they've said no to so that there's no Question that somebody is serving as some sort of gatekeeper and keeping the rest of the counselor from the rest of the counselors I'm seeing it. I absolutely don't think that's the intention of this body It's just a place to send things Went to do some of the work, but not the staff work To sort out if it has the things we would need to potentially be actionable Okay, just to summarize the word order is Suggested that we omit that at this point since we don't have any orders and the other issue that I Counselor Brewer is just making is true for all subcommittees all excuse me all standing committees And that is you all report back to the council This is just a way of working through issues before they come to the council So that they're in a little better form and format And that's true for finance. It's true for the committee that shall not be named it's true for The communication outreach and appointments committee and it's true for governance organization and legislation committee Okay Counselor Dumont just wondering if it's true that Any bylaw would need to go through the town council COUNSEL That's how you spell it The town attorney event in any yes the town attorney would have to look at any bylaw in any event and if so What would this? The function of the committee under number two here. How would that? Let me help let me take a Page from an experience if you will and that is the one that I share with Council Steinberg and that is on the zero energy bylaw rewrite We did a lot of discussion. I My calendar shows we met 13 times. Maybe it was 16 I can't remember it was numerous hours over a two-month period to get ready to bring a two-spring town meeting in the end The town manager did take that bylaw and pass it by town count town attorney so that but They weren't going to sit in that room for those 13 meetings as we went through and discussed the actual content and Intent of that bylaw they were going to look at it in the end to make sure that it was in the proper form That it was consistent with the town, etc That but you're not going to have a town council are sitting there for 13 meetings on one bylaw other comments Just for clarity's sake You said councillors sitting there. I was that attorney councillor attorney sitting there Yeah sitting there for 13 meetings. Thank you. Are there other discussions on governance organization legislation? So we've gone back and forth whether we need the committee or not me need need the committee We've gone back and forth when whether it should be one committee or two committees We definitely recognize that the ad hoc rules committee is already working on a piece of this With a time frame of six months and we also have a bylaw review committee that is all already working on Pieces of this however There is the recognition that there may be additional bylaws that would come before the council that are not being covered by the bylaw review committee at this time and This would be the committee that it would be referred to or frankly any other bylaws that might Merge out of any of the other committees Would eventually come to this for this purpose So then after that we got to the issue of what should number two really state and with councillor Hanna key and The clerk I'm going to ask that somebody read the number two Correct me if I'm wrong Number two would read Review bylaws and resolutions proposed for action by the town council for form Content and organization to assure they are clear consistent and Actionable by the town council period this may include consultation with the town attorney period Yes Okay, are there other? Conversations or discussion about this particular committee Yes, it's not about the committee per se, but I just Unless my memory is wrong I don't think anyone has been assigned yet to review those bylaws that's correct So just you know, so it's we don't have a group yet, but so that has to go somewhere at some point that is correct Can we just quickly? Well, not quickly. Could we now turn to powers and duties of council committees? We did not have an opportunity to discuss this last week Basically, it remains unchanged And The only suggestion is to move six to four Which you did in the form that you've received today Yes, councilor Hanna key So I have a number of changes, but I'm just going to preface it with section 9.12 of the charter has uniform procedures applicable to multiple member bodies So many of my changes are to make These powers and duties of the council committees consistent with what's in the charter I recognize that the charter allows the multiple member bodies to determine their own rules unless Another provision is made by the town council so we can change them But but the bigger changes in terms that I had were in number two the meetings the committees I pretty much just mirrored Section 912 a so I would add committee shall meet I would add the words regularly at such times and places was required by the council or the committee's chair and Then I'd put a new pair a new sentence that says special meetings of a committee may be held if called By the committee's chair or by one-third of the members thereof but not fewer than two Because that's what the charter currently has multiple member bodies Allowing special meetings to be called by I would add a number somewhere that just says committees are subject to the requirements of open meeting law and then I Would also add an eight or Another number that all regular meetings of committees shall provide for a period of public comment The town council's rules and procedures shall apply to the public comment period so that we don't have to reiterate what those public comment rules are Is there anything else Councillor Hennigan? Those were the big ones. So it's in number two. It's a committee shall meet regularly as such and and At such times and places places as required by the town council and then And after the word chair it goes comma or by one-third of the members of the committee, but not less than two And then not quite so I split it into two sentences Okay, so the regular meetings as required by the town council or the committee's chair period and then a new sentence that Takes from 912 a the second sentence special meetings of A committee may be held if called by the committee's chair or by one-third of the members thereof But not fewer than two it it just modifies that second second sentence of section 912 a from the charter Okay, and then you also suggested I think most correctly that We want to add a statement about open meeting law and public comment Councilor Pam I have one question about the the last one number eight public public comment You said that the rules that we the council establishes on public comment should apply but Perhaps a committee. I mean it depending upon whether you say it's at the beginning or the end or both a committee meeting might decide they wanted it at the beginning or the end and Why why restrict them? Councillor Haneke It wasn't an intent to restrict the placement. It was more of Looking at the sort of substance of those sort of rules that we've adopted already the three minutes the no Discussion those types of things Not necessarily a placement. Now. I don't know where the council's permanent rules will fall but that that was my thinking in Having it consistent between since these are Council committees having it consistent with how we operate public comment at a council meeting as a subcommittee to Are there other comments on the rules on the duties? I'm sorry powers and duties of council make committees Councillor Dumont When I first read this I wondered if this The powers that these rules Should be within the purview of the rules committee. That's going to be meeting tomorrow Meaning might you discuss these and at some point make different changes? Yes, is that what you meant? Yes Okay, I don't see any reason why not And another comment I Think that the sentence in number one At a committee's first meeting the member who is first in the order of those announced by the council president To serve on the committee shall call the meetings and preside until a chair is elected I think it would probably be better to Have a method that was like clearly more fair like the member most senior in age or or toss a coin Some method that that uh, you know Seems like it's even handed Okay, right other comments on this Yes, Councillor Hannon one other in terms of committee officers. Yes, it lists a chair and a vice chair Yes, it doesn't list a clerk And should we be designating a specific person that will be the Clerk in charge of these committees. I think you know the committees are gonna have to take minutes and so Do we want a clerk designated to that person could either be the minute taker or could be the person who? Reviews the minutes that are taken by if they rotate around Committees around the committee members and if most of our committees are only five people do we need a vice chair? Do we want to require a vice chair? I think we might want a discussion around What officers are necessary on these committees? Councillor Shane. I just want to build on that comment on what I thought Councillor Demont was suggesting is we're gonna take some of These up in the rules committee So I agree we don't necessarily need a vice chair when we've only got five people and clerk to me always means sort of a separate person But if we said someone will take minutes You know it could be what it may well be one of the five people who are there But someone just we have to be taking minutes and reporting them back So I've been looking at some of the other subcommittees of various things. They don't have the rules formally Designated but it's clear. There are always minutes if it's a public meeting there have to be minutes, okay Other comments on this piece Councillor Brewer So understanding that yes, we can talk about this tomorrow at the rules of Procedure as opposed to the rules and procedure the way it's posted right now, but we'll get there is I'm also uncomfortable with the second sentence in item one in terms of who got called on first or whatever and So I would just as soon that we saw that What I would what I'm planning to recommend tomorrow unless I hear differently is that when the Council president appoints the members right people say who wants to be on things and the council president may decide that on the Spot or may take it under advisement and bring it back to a subsequent meeting But at any rate when the council president would then Temporarily say and so-and-so's in charge of making sure you all find a time that works together And getting them working with the clerk to get the first meeting posted and then you appoint a chair So it's it's almost like an interim chair but it's somebody to kick off the first thing so that somebody is responsible to make that happen and You could do that by Checking in with that person before you just blindly assigned that to them or they could say no I can't do it because I'm gonna be away So could you ask one of the other four to do it but rather than saying it's who was first in order of those announced that Just sounds super goofy to me. So council Schreiber So the main reason to have a vice chair is in case the chair is absent So I would recommend leaving vice chair in or else specifying that there's a clerk and the clerk shall be presided over meetings Yes, the chair is not available Yes, council Schwartz So I was just gonna say that yeah this I would agree with that that it's really important to have a vice chair because if all of a sudden your chair is out then it's who's gonna run the meeting and what's so that makes a lot of sense to me You probably not ever gonna or very few times you're gonna need it But when you do you really do and I would also say that taking minutes is an arduous task And I would think personally that you wouldn't want to have just one person all the time having to Take minutes because sometimes it can also take away from your understanding of things as you're trying to Take down everything that said so I would maybe not use the word clerk. Maybe we I was the rules Committee can think about you know whether or not we should just Strike that and the committee can sort of make up their mind themselves Okay Thank you Additional comments on this All right, so let me try something I'm going to try the following that we move into action items But we are only going to approve. I'm only going to ask that we look at and approve finance communications outreach and appointments and governance organization and legislation that we defer for the time being on the committee that shall not be named and furthermore that I ask the rules committee ad hoc rules committee to address the powers and duties of the council committees and Bring it back to us at the next meeting Councillor Schreiber I So move Okay, I second the motion Councillor Schreiber Move the motion councillor Pam second at the motion Okay, so we're now going to move into I'm sorry I just want to point out on the agenda for the audience and those on TV We're actually now going to move into the action item part of the agenda We're going to take up each committee on its own Okay, so if there are changes we will make sure that they're in and We will move first to the finance committee on the finance committee the changes that I have Hold on I wanted I want to do a point of order Do I need a separate motion to bring finance forward or can we go through all three and then move it? Oh, I'm sorry. The motion I have is to act on finance committee communications outreach and appointments and governance organization and legislation and Refer powers and duties of council committees to the ad hoc rules of procedures committee. So you've got your motion, okay? so we'll discuss first finance then we'll move to the communications outreach and appointments and finally the governance organization and legislative Finance These are the changes that I have already recorded and I please ask that the Clerk check me on these The first one is on at the end of the sentence at number three Where it says for residents it should now say for residents as non-voting members okay, on a the work the one counselor strike the s and Later on in that same sentence it should say budgeting committee commission on B It would say two counselors s From this committee will represent the council on the joint capital planning committee Yes, okay, and on C It would say no more than two counselors For this committee will represent the council on the budget coordinating group Counselor Brewer, so I have two questions one is a simple Find and replace that we can ask the clerk to deal with later Which is that these should both say town council instead of just council. Yes, we're referring I believe we're currently using the idea of counselors, but also town council not just council and then the other item is So I know we talked about this a lot But under item B if we're not saying no more than so if we say to counselor to Counselors from this committee will represent the town council and the JCPC then that implies that will be the only Representation from this council on JCPC and I believe I heard people talking about the idea of additional counselors Also representing the council on JCPC, so I'm not sure where we're going with that statement We could leave it as no more than two and When we come to JCPC, which is later on in the agenda take that back up So that B would read no more than two counselors For this committee will represent the town council on The joint capital planning committee blah blah blah and there's a period at the end of that sentence and at the next sentence Yes, I Had written down this statement. This is relating to Counselor Brewer plus to council to town counselors not from the finance committee We're not going to put that in here. We're gonna when we take up JCPC is where we will address that What are you going to add to? Have as many as four people Okay, so that would not go under finance committee But it instead on finance committee, it would say no more no more than two counselors Are there any other changes on finance? Moving on skipping the next committee Communication outreach and appointments committee. The first change I have is to not only refer in 1a To section 2.3 1 3 of the charter, but also section 5.3 The second is to say and other strategies to broaden participation comma Ensure regular and transparent communication and outreach to the residents of Amherst then B actually becomes C and Instead B reads work with the resident advisory committee as outlined in the charter section 3.3 C the B Includes the word town council and Is split into two So that the first reads B actually reads as service the as the committee to review and advise The town council on all in and it on all candidates Forwarded by the town manager for employment as department heads period and that is section 211 A The second I have is serve as the committee to review and advise the town council on all candidates forward by the town manager for appointment to Multiple member bodies in accordance with the charter and that is section 2.11 B period and then D Which was formerly C remains the same, but it needs a period. Thank you Is there anything that I missed on that? I don't know if you're planning to include this but Councillor Baal Min had brought up to being a little more specific on I guess it's 1b to something to do with Researching over trying to overcome barriers that prevent members from certain communities from participating on town committees Or for or for applying to town committees My intent was to include that when I included the phrase To broaden participation, but that may not be sufficient Councillor Baalman, you did mention that work with community participation officer would include all of the activities So okay with that including that phrase is sufficient Okay, are there other comments on that one? Okay, moving on to governance organization and legislation I'm going to ask the town clerk to read to it is now And to becomes three number two review bylaws and Resolutions proposed for action by the town council for form content and organization to assure they are Consistent and actionable by the town council period. This may include consultation with the town attorney Further discussion or comment on that council do not Did you did we want to add the sentence this will not include? The underlying proposed policy That was the issue of whether or not this committee had in a the power if you will to change the intent of Something I think people were suggesting That as long as we keep saying clear and consistent is the goal here that that was not necessary But I'm open to discussion on that. I think as long as it continues to say content That will be subject and misinterpretation Interpretation councillor moras I Think underhand council Haneke's proposed changes clear Consistent and actionable sets the parameters by which content can be evaluated and so it by its by its wording Makes it so that you cannot Evaluate content under the from the perspective of intent Additional comment. Yes So I'm just wondering if By keeping in content and then, you know, we're giving these Ideas I wonder if it then still sort of seems open like to Subject of what someone would think was Adhering to consistency Does that make sense? councilor Pam We could just change the word content to meaning Okay, council Ross Just repeating what I said earlier. I think content relates very much to whether something is actionable And so if certain content is missing it might not be actionable And so I think the word content is actually important to include here, but as I said councilor Haneke's parameters I think restrict the committee from going beyond clear consistent and actionable I'm gonna ask that we read the sentence yet again Review bylaws and resolutions proposed for action by the town council for form content and organization To assure they are clear consistent and actionable by the town council Counselor Shane, if the word content was changed to wording Isn't that what we're getting at so you're reviewing the wording to make sure it's clear. It's consistent I mean, it's an odd way of saying you're reviewing the wording But that's what you're trying to do. You're not trying to get back to What were people trying to do? It's just is it is that clear? I know we're just searching for a word that doesn't say go back and change the policy councilor Brewer, I Think we are going to struggle with this once it's a sign and we're going to have to figure out Where those lines are drawn within the group Which is why it's so important that the group report back to this body Because speaking of another previous bylaw that I was engaged with for far too long Which was the shade tree regulations bylaw there were pieces missing from it that needed to be in it Based on what had been said and based what was in mass general law And so if you're referring to content yet, there were sentences missing there were definitions missing and those needed to be added Before in in our case it comes to the body of 13 rather than coming to the body of 13 and saying well I miss a couple things we'll go back tomorrow To give you something to actually work around and but not in terms of like turning it from a shade tree committee that has And bylaw that has some substantial power into something that didn't have any power Like it didn't change the intent It just tried to make it all work together, and it was missing pieces so content can be actual missing things or incorrect figures as but not changing the meaning cancer Schreiber so I See this committee as Trying to make the best of a proposed Bylaw or policy so they may not agree with it But working with whomever the petitioner is to make the best possible Thing that we can vote on but I also do think that they might have a role in Sort of explaining what the pluses and the minuses are so in other words This is the best way we could do with this particular proposal town attorney has cautioned us about this or whatever so but still the town attorney is an An advisor to us, so we may be or she may say it's not Actionable or a question will be actionable, but we still may choose to take action on it But I think presenting sides are presenting almost like what the League of Women Voters does you know presenting? You know presenting sides on an issue. I think is an important possible role of this council Schwartz Couldn't we just put in what we keep saying and say without changing content or intention Again, I think what people are saying is that sometimes So the intention is there there may actually be things that Come up on a bylaw review that are literally not consistent with the laws of Massachusetts and in that in that case you now have You work to try to make it so that it's a Workable bylaw But you may have to change something that's in it in a way that Makes it workable. I I think councillor Brewer's comment about how This is something you struggle with and so forth Is it's and also councillor Haneke's Measure of what it is we mean when we say we're going to look at form content and organization I am sure also that if a body that wanted to propose a new bylaw to us Felt that we had so tampered with their intent we would hear about it So yes Sorry section 2.10 of the charter deals with the publication of proposed bylaws So it assumes that the council has Received the bylaw the proposed bylaws in in full they have been posted and Then before a bylaw is finally passed the council will full council will have reviewed it twice So my question is does the council want to add the charter that the charter section reference to this So that it would just say consistent with the charter and then cite the charter reference Thank you 2.10 Okay Councillor Haneke I know we are struggling with the wording. I Just think at this point We're close and we can adopt it potentially and be mindful that if we see this committee as if the council as a whole feels the committee is Going over the bounds we've discussed today. We can come back and revise this fairly quickly Yes Further comment further comment All right, we have a motion in a second before us to adopt the Charges to the finance committee The communications outreach and appointments committee and the governance organization legislation. Yes, Councillor Dumont Would it be appropriate to move to amend the motion to just take them one at a time to start with just the finance Committee and then do them one at a time sure I so move All right. All right, so then we're going to move to can I have a motion for finance? Do I need a motion for that? No, it's essentially just been separated out the motions are still there. We're just voting them three different We're going to now We're only looking at finance Is there any other comment on finance are we ready to call the question? I think there's Okay, so there's a motion in a second. We were discussing the motion That motion still on the table, but I'm sorry the motion is to separate, but now there's a new motion. I Don't know how this works And I believe under Robert's rules a severable motion is non-debatable It just happens if the if the item can be severed out separately So the motion right now is on the finance committee only. Thank you for that clarification Finance committee only is there any further good discussion? Councillor Brewer, this is really an easy question. So we have charges that we approved last time We have other charges. We're going to be approving tonight later yet Will these Committees even as our committees will they be turned into the same kind of standard charge document? Eventually, yes, that that's the intention So they all yes, although these are very different committees in that they're committees of the council And so we would have to make that clear somewhere in those headings that we use as the template But that is the intention so we just shuffle through. We'll be glad to do that. Thank you Finance committee any further conversation? Call a question all those in favor I It's unanimous moving on Communication outreach and appointments committee Others are any further conversation discussion questions Sections that you would like to have reviewed if not call the question Yes, I'm sorry Okay, yes You got that didn't you on the I'm sorry. Okay, is there a Any further conversation this all those in favor I That's unanimous We're moving on to governance organization and legislation committee There was a substantial change in number two on that. We've reviewed it Any further conversation on it any further questions? Call the question all those in favor opposed it's 12 to 1 and Just as a reminder we're referring powers duties and and duties of council committees to the ad hoc rules committee Fun making a plane while you're flying when President madam president does the referral need voted on I'm sorry does the referral of the duties of The council committees whatever it's called could I have a motion to refer that the duties Was part of the motion, so I think we just have to vote. Okay, so now we're going back to the original motion, right? Which was to vote on these and refer the duties Powers and duties to the ad hoc rules committee, right Okay, is there any further conversation? Questions call the question all those in favor That's unanimous, I suggest we take a five minute break All right, we're going to reconvene and move on to joint capital planning committee This is a committee under the charter And it does have at a minimum Probably two people from the council And what you have before you is the charge So I need a motion to adopt the charge to the joint capital planning committee Councillor Steinberg has moved to have a second Councillor Swartz has seconded the motion Discussion Councillor Shane I'll just repeat hopefully succinctly my My recommendation that we expand from to council members To for where to come from finance and to come from Council who aren't on finance and I understood The earlier thought that there was a reason the town used to do it the other way that because we had town meeting Bringing in a different group. I was thinking more that this is such an important committee And that it doesn't represent schools or the town or library It's looking at our capital budget thinking five years ten years down the road What are our strategies to start to meet our needs and our backlog and that more people Understanding the complexity on the council would be better than fewer So I was looking at to broaden the knowledge on the council knowing that these recommendations will come back So that's why I thought for Again to coming up from the finance committee and then to who are not on finance committee So they it would not mean that everyone has to be in all the same meetings So that was the only change. I was recommending for this in this case It's under the number of voting members Where we would have to change that Councillor Hanna key I'm gonna address that and then when that discussion is done. I have something else to ask but this committee I believe does and Please either the town manager or someone who's served on this committee correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm actually votes on The capital Portion of the budget and is this this is the committee that proposes the capital portion of the budget and what that will include each Operating year I believe and therefore I guess my concern is if we put four councillors on Well, we've got an issue with there's an even number anyway But there's an equal number of councillors and school committee and library trustees and I guess I echo Councillor Steinberg's comment of the school committee and the library trustees You know, they they don't this is how they get their capital needs met and They would be able to be outvoted on anything Essentially or or at least tie voted on anything Any of well outvoted on each of their proposals in some sense on Anything they want done, so I guess I'm concerned with that Imbalance of potential power on a committee that's going to bring and vote on the budget that we see In a council that already has 13 votes and acts finally on those proposals additional comments Councilor PM. I have a question so This committee I'm not sure whose committee it is Because at the bottom it says that the town manager will prepare and submit to the town council And it's at the capital libertarian five-year capital improvement program. Is that supposed to be different from what the JC PC does just I'm on the right committee, right? You are right. I know I know that it's I know that I'm saying whose committee is this you said it comes back to the council to be voted on So I'm not sure who does what in what order Councillor Hanna key that actually goes to my other question, which was what is the actual charge of this committee? And what is it going to do because the reports don't really discuss what its actual duties and role Right is so that was my other overarching but in term but I was trying to just adjust the size Yeah, I'm not sure Who's bringing what is it the town manager? We should if it's a committee make it at least seven members potentially Or five To make it that odd number to accord with the charter Where you'd put that one? I mean, maybe it could be the town manager to represent the executive side. I don't know What potential options we have but yeah, that's my other concern with this document is what councillor Pam said of What is this committee in charge of? Mr. Bachman Thank You Madam President This committee is advisory to the town manager as in the first sentence under this Charter so it says the town manager with the advice of a joint capital planning committee Composed of that minimum represented from the town council school committee and library trustees shall create a capital improvement program So basically it says the town manager shall create a capital improvement program So this is a committee of all the elected Officials to advise the town manager in how to do that, but ultimately the product work product comes from the town manager Councillor Steinberg So this is obviously difficult topic. Yes, I have served on two different Occasions on the joint capital planning committee once I served For a period when I was on the finance committee then I didn't serve for a long period of time And then this last year I served as a member of the slug board. So I Reflecting on my experience with the committee as I respond The former town government act Specified the creation of the joint capital planning committee it was added Probably what in late 70s maybe or round I but in any event It uses the word also advisory to the town manager What the function of the committee? has been pretty well described for the most part is to Make recommendations as to what should be in the long-range capital plan and in the next capital budget and to also make recommendations on some policy matters that are related to capital one of the things that Came up for example in discussion was At what point is maintenance of a building capital and was what point maintenance of a building and operating budget item and No, we tried to understand that a little bit better. I don't think we ever came to a perfect conclusion. However on it the recommendations then went to the town manager of which the you know Various people in that role but for the most part I think the town managers have recognized that this was the joint work of people from three different elected boards plus and to the sense that the Finance committee was appointed by the moderator who's elected and represented town meeting Which is elected body was really for for for elected boards. I think that the town manager Generally respected that process and that's what was then put forward to town meeting and we looked at I've looked at the last couple of town meeting warrants and The motions that were made at each of those town meetings Was actually a motion by the joint capital planning committee and so they moved their own report items and That's how the process then went to town meeting and the discussion then followed from that so That was my experience working with the committee Councilor Bumer So I spent less time on the joint capital planning committee all together than mr. Steinberg did on purpose because I didn't want to be there and The I had done it as a school committee member because again it was two two two and two And two so there was the finance committee that of course wasn't elected the same way the school committee and library trustees were Just a couple of additions to that very helpful explanation mr. Steinberg just gave it This body is grease more actually probably knows exactly when this body was created and it's not as old as the 1970s It's actually much newer than that and we were actually way ahead of our time when we developed this in this town This is not something that we've been doing since 1954 1970. It's something we've only been doing since the 80s late 80s and Many other communities have started to follow us because they realize wow We don't have a plan and we have a plan and we have a process and the process has been refined over time the plan the process used to be that staff Basically said this is the stuff we need and had already talked with the town manager and the finance director And there was some jockeying around that happened at meetings Eventually they became a more clear process Which now has even gone so far as to include community members being able to apply into the joint capital planning process Which had not been possible before it was that they always had to get funneled through Basically staff because the select board didn't bring proposals to the joint capital planning committee the school committee Didn't bring proposals to the joint capital planning committee. They had it as a school committee joint But they had as a school committee capital budget So that wasn't where proposals arose that normally it was where proposals were vetted and one of the reasons I learned I wanted to avoid it is I didn't really want to hear the presentation about lawnmowers because I was fine with the people making that decision in Concert with all the other decisions that were having to be made I know that at town meetings sometimes people wanted to hear grave details about lawnmowers, but I was willing to say People on joint capital planning heard that presentation saw the paperwork that that mowers gonna last five or ten years I'm fine with that So I think that what we look at when we're sending people to this which did used to have equal numbers of people as Opposed to odd numbers that we're very concerned about now is That it's something that will report back to us to say Council these are the things that are priorities in the town and this is what we're hearing when we're at these meetings And then we'll tell our representatives to joint capital Hey, go back and tell them that we have to put more money into roads or we have to put more money into schools Or we have to do something with this so it's a conduit back and forth Rather than we us asking for example the director of public works through the town manager to come here and explain to us Why he needs a lawnmower? So it is a place where those decisions are vetted in a different way and then brought back to the full body And I appreciate the concept of well We don't have the same kind of executive in the same kind of legislative body So how can we make it equal and I don't have a good answer to that Councillor hannacky and councillor Brewer just gave me a potential solution during her speech and She mentioned that out Potentially currently correct me if I'm wrong or before this transition there were Community members on the JCPC or had thought about bringing them in we could put a seventh member on that is a resident of Amherst and that would give us our odd Number of people if we add one community member into the mix Councillor Brewer would you clarify that I'm sorry? I did make that confusing There has never been to the best of my knowledge a non-elected or appointed official on that body however There what there was is just a year ago There was a new process where the community member could bring a proposal Through the application process that is normally confined to staff whether it's school staff library staff or town staff It's normally staff who turn in all the proposals. It's not like block grant advisory where all kinds of agencies turn things in as well As the town it's always just been town government which of course is full of elected and appointed officials that people have hired and Elected to do those things, but so if you put somebody from the outside on there That is obviously an option and something that's been talked about elsewhere, but it's a very new process to even allow them to apply without Basically the past you use that person would have to convince a staff member to put in that application Councillor Steinberg Just to add to that I think that I grew with what Ms. Brewer said is the process And that was the thought of the Charter Commission as I understand it for creating the participatory budget Commission Which would also be an avenue for Citizens to be able to get capital items under consideration that were not in Consideration before so it was it was really intended the same way other comments on this So one comment has been that instead of making it six we would make it eight and that Instead of there being two people from the council there would be four people two of them from finance to from from the town council and Then the other option that has been thrown out is the idea that we keep it as Six members who are from elected bodies two two and two and one member from the community And then of course it's leaving it as it stands, but the primary Discussion has been about what's its function who it works with and the fact that ultimately all of the Decisions or recommendations if you will of this body Come back to the town council for approval anyway other comments Councilor didn't I'm sorry to Councilor de Angelis. Thank you. I Can see the reasoning behind having one community member But if we think about some of the divisions that have been created over the last couple of years in town it might be good to either to have none or Three So that we maintain oddness But it seems to me that I think I could see the public Residents of Amherst getting really distrustful on antsy You know you picked my person and you didn't pick so-and-so and so I'm concerned about that Councillor steinberger One reason that it might be all right to have an even number on this particular committee is That if it was split three and three on a vote that would be informative to the town manager The town manager is next up and makes a decision on where to go and what is actually going to be presented to the council I might also add that if you look at the way the six people vote even on a 4-2 vote could be instructive Additional comments observations. Yes councilor Brewer. I Would prefer not to put a member of the public on this body I think that a member of the public is a great idea or two or three on many bodies, but this would not be the one And I also think we should not discard as uncomfortable as it feels in many respects Since our executive and legislative bodies have changed and I believe that as councillors We feel grave responsibility Just as the select board when it was an executive and the town manager as an executive feel great responsibility and grave Responsibility for the library capital improvements and the school capital improvements that it doesn't make sense to confine ourselves to two seats as long as we are not just there to promote Town hall plus dpw plus fire things. We are looking at the big picture This is the place to look at the big picture So I actually do like the idea of two town council finance committee members and two councillors that are not on the finance committee plus still the two library trustees plus still the two school committee members and in all Reality, I'm not convinced although it would be harder for those bodies because they're five member body five Yeah, to send more people to JCPC, they're not confined to two either No, they are not So That would be two councillors To finance committee people who would be councillors and as well as two other town councillors Councillor Hanna key so as the charge is written the library trustees and the school committee would be confined to two Because the charge says to from each appointing authority. We could change the charge To more from each one and I caution an even number the charter and I know I'm one of the ones that wrote it. So I I Have us have a Fault for some of this I guess it says all appointed multiple member bodies when established shall be composed of an odd number of members It doesn't actually give us the option or any exceptions. So I Hesitant at such an early stage of the adoption of the charter to actually go against that Sort of stringent all must be odd numbers that could mean we could put three councillors on it and two from the other two bodies and right That's another possibility council Ross I Just like to support what councillor Hanna key said Because we do have this in the charter these uniform rules it makes sense to abide by them And so we do have to get to an odd number. It would make sense that the Additional person would come from the council, but at least under that The council alone would not hold a majority Or even an even number they would need to be You know, they they couldn't have a majority vote on just the council alone other comments All right, we have a motion on the floor. Do I hear an amendment to that motion? councillor Hanna key Councillor Ryan Like to propose to amend that we would have three members from the council So it would read seven seven members in total total two from each of the school committee and the library and three from the council Is there a second? Can I do? Friendly amendment. Yes, that of the three from the council two are from the finance committee and one is not from the finance committee and Is there a second? Councillor Schwartz second that was councillor Schwartz Yes, councillor Hanna key, so I actually don't like that friendly amendment I I Would like to leave it up to us depending on other things to decide whether two are from the finance committee And one is from the non-finance committee or whether it goes the other way around we just created 15 spots on committees and of the 15 plus 15 there This is another three so that's 18 There's one on the participatory budgeting is 19 and two on the BCG was 20 and that doesn't even include the committee we Shelved for now and it doesn't include the by-law review committee or the rules and procedures committee Which is another so we're almost up to potentially 30 Members needed for committees and so it might be and with the finance committee already having of Their five members potentially four or five other Memberships it it might be good to leave that flexibility in Where one versus two come from can I just mention that the way that we passed the motion For the finance committee was to say no more than two councillors, so it could allow either one or two So I guess we have a friendly amendment on the floor any more discussion on that I think we need to Either make it a real amendment or We need to go back to the original one and the real amendment would be a Total of seven people to from the school committee to from the library And three from the council two of which would be from the finance committee and one from Another committee or just one from the council So that's the actual motion of the amendment. Is there a second to that? Okay, Andy, excuse me. Councillor Steinberg seconded and For the discussion Councillor Brewer, I don't I've lost a little track of where we are in terms of I'm fine with us working on the voting members But I actually did still have a comment about the charge wording itself You know the authority membership staff support report section and so did you want to include that because that's not Is the motion as it's written with the change to the number of voting members? I think I think we should stick to the amendment on the voting members, okay Any further discussion on the amendment to the voting members Councillor Hannacky before we vote because it looks like there isn't any I just want to confirm the amendment includes that too Must come from the finance committee. That is the way the amendment reads Any further discussion on that? council Ryan, I hear councillor Hannacky's concern and Perfectly willing to Change it or withdraw it If we're going to require two members from the finance committee That seems to be adding my understanding of her concerns that adds further Wait further duties, so perhaps we should leave it As we originally had it with just Three members and leave it at that and not require the two of them be from the finance Committee So I Think it rather than withdrawal we should vote Okay, so we're voting on the amendment the amendment at this point is that it would be seven members Two from the school committee two from the library and three from the council two of whom would be from the finance committee And one of whom would be from the council? Yes, and this is the amendment specifically not the third members specifically not from it's totally the amendment Councillor Brewer, I don't think we have any control over how many school committee members or library trustees are actually on this That's not under our purview. I Guess I need to ask whether this is in the charter Not that I'm aware of yes, Councillor Brewer. Exactly. That's why membership says dot dot Under that section is it says a composed at a minimum Representatives from it does not say how many and so I guess So the way I'm feeling about this is that we could go ahead and say this but if and and vote this and whichever variation of this We're doing but if the library trustees or the school committee come back and say we don't think that's fair And they should be talking in the president and the town manager about that because we really can't we can't control In this case how many of them are serving on this? This is a body that's advisory that's advisory to the town manager It does not say how many of any of us and so they could be having the same argument back at their meeting as to how many people They want to send Okay Councillor Hannacky So that would then bring up the question Do we even have the authority to really do a committee charge or is it the town manager's authority? to Form the JCPC per the charter mr. Buckleman So I don't think there's a clear answer to this But I think I go back to when our one of our early trainings Where the town administrator from Franklin said when there's When it's when something falls into nobody's category it falls into the town council's category So you I'm you could make the judgment that since it's unclear that we're taking on the responsibilities to make the call on this one Okay So we are back to the amendment To the original motion the original the amendment is for seven members two from the schools two from the library Three from the council two of which will be finance committee and one other one Any further discussion Let's take it and I call the question on the amendment All those in favor Opposed four five six no that can't be right Too many it was five sorry It's five and now we have an even number of council members sorry Okay the motion passes and So we're back to the original motion, which is the charge is there any further discussion on the charge Counselor Brewer, I'm sorry I do have a point about the charge But I also have a point for our minutes our minutes are required as I understand it although our recent draft ones do not When we do not have a unanimous vote it requires to name us and I wondered if we actually did that in such a way that the clerk Is probably super speedy and caught that but I'm not sure they caught who the eight But would you like us to record that vote? Okay, would you call the names on them? For yes in favor no against Okay, all right all those in favor and those opposed Thank You counsel Brewer. Okay. We're back to the original motion. Is there any further discussion? counsel Brewer It's always a challenge with the charges like this and with the charter How much do we repeat and we talked about that rules procedure? We'll talk about it again tomorrow at rules of procedure, but I'm a little uncomfortable with leaving reports at no later than May 1 the town manager shall prepare and Because the rest of that whole section in the charter is important too It talks about a public forum that has to be held Which the town council may well be involved in trying to get people excited about coming too And it also talks about how the town council actually adopts the joint capital plan So I I think we neither need less or we need more comment on that cancer, Hanukkah We could easily just say reports Reports shall be in conformity to section 5.7 of the charter period And then that might cover it and I go back to and I'm gonna take my leeway to say something else I go back to the thing the might of my mentioned before which is there seemed to be no purpose and That seems to be because there is no actual purpose section in this draft charge and so I recommend we Take the last sentence of the authority section that reads the joint capital planning committee shall advise the town manager on the creation of the program and make that the purpose I Need to ask clarification Are you saying under reports that we strike everything that is there and just say reports consistent with section 5.4 of the charter? 5.7. Yes reports consistent with section 5.7 of the charter. Okay, so the two changes Not going back to the members, but the two changes one is to move purpose Have it be the last sentence of authority which they would make the purpose the joint capital planning committee Shall advise the town manager on the creation of the program then you would have authority after that Membership staff and under reports you would strike everything there and just say reports consistent with 5.7 of the section 5.7 of the charter Counselor Pam I could see that for now, but I always think it's nice to print things out I mean, I hate to have documents which keep referring me to someplace else But for now, that's a shorthand way of saying what would go there and we can then include it Okay Other comments All right, so the full motion Before the council is I'm sorry counselor Hannity. I was just going to suggest With councillor Pam suggestion that the second page of the committee charge just print the entire section 5.7 of the charter just for informational purposes. Just stick it in there Okay Kail, I'm sorry. Mr. Backelman just one clarification under membership Do you want that to be spelled out in terms of where the members are coming from? Because this is just quotes the charter in essence I think yes, so you say two members from the light board of library trustees two members from the school committee Three members from the town council two of which shall be members of the finance committee No, actually under membership. I Would leave it as you have it the number of voting members above is where we made the edit Okay, so the changes as they now stand to this for the entire motion one is under number of voting members it says seven and it goes on to talk about them from School committee library and three from the council two of which will be from the finance committee the other second change is to Create a section called purpose and that has the joint capital planning committee shall advise the town manager on the creation of the program under authority It's the two sentences that remain there and then under report for the time being it says Reports consistent with section 5.7 of the charter The actual reports that actual section 5.7 would be attached to the charge. Yes Councillor steinberg. So I guess the Thing that concerns me is that what we've now done Is take it is used the term capital improvement program Which was in one place and then we did have it defined later We've now taken the definition of what the capital improvement program is and eliminated that so that At no point are we as a council? Saying what the capital improvement program is if you read that sentence. It's very clear as to what each part of it is And There's one other thing that I was just going to throw in for informational purposes and how I thought about this all along is Actually, one of the things that JCPC did in recent years is to move to ten years for it to make it a ten-year plan and I think it's okay to say next five fiscal years because if it continues to do a ten-year plan You know if I do reporting on more than five is not inconsistent The the five however is what's in the charter Right, correct. Okay, so they can still do a ten-year. It's just that they have to do at least five Okay, I want to go back to your first point though and Would you further explain that or Well, right now you've created a purpose and the purpose is the time Andrews is responsible for creating the capital improvement program and Then we say the JCPC will advise and the creation of the program but we've taken out the part of The charge that defined what a capital improvement program is Which we had incorporated into the report section it probably all along Deserved to be up at the top But I was just raising the question for my fellow counselors Before they vote on this as to whether they really want to eliminate This part of it that was defining what a capital improvement program is I hear you counselor Ryan in the Charter 5.7 letter B Word-for-word is included That capital program description Though I agree with counselor Steinberg. It would be very helpful to have it spelled out here It actually assuming we do under reports have consistent with 5.7 of the Charter The description is in 5.7 of the Charter so The suggestion is under reports To say reports Consistent with 5.7 of the Charter and then leave the description there Excuse me, I think the suggestion was that paragraph defines what a capital improvement program is to move it up to purpose Okay, it goes with the capital improvement program is the following Okay, and then and then the reports can be this the section. Yes, okay, so in this case the suggestion is Purpose would begin with a sentence the joint capital planning commit