Hi, this is Roseanne from the alcohol-free lifestyle program. I'm an enrollment and journey coach and I just celebrated 10 months living the alcohol-free life just a few days back. When I started my journey living alcohol-free, I was a divorced retiree living in Yuma, Arizona, who was desperately trying to work on her lost confidence and the persistent feeling that I was not lovable. I volunteered a lot locally but I didn't really believe in my heart that I had anything valuable to offer anyone else and secretly I could barely stand looking in the mirror. So much has changed throughout my journey over the last 10 months. Now I have one of the best jobs in the world because I get to witness lives being transformed daily during the period of 90 days and beyond. I live life with a skip in my step and I absolutely love to laugh. It is without a doubt one of the reasons I was inspired enough to start working with this program. I am stepping in for James Swanick today on some of his podcasts moving forward. So no pressure, right? I'm just trying to step into the shoes of a trained ESPN news broadcaster with a charming Aussie accent and a TV personality. This is crazy. James' favorite thing to do with his clients and of course I was one of them is to stretch them into uncomfortable roles as to create true and lasting change. I'm living proof of that massive change in the alcohol freedom lifestyle program as is my guest Steve Aguiar who is 51 years old from Elk Grove, California and works for the city of Livermore as an environmental compliance supervisor. Steve is only a few days behind me in his alcohol-free journey and we are going to talk to Steve about how he lost a whopping 60 pounds in this journey has developed a positive outlook on his life and better relationships with his wife and those who he works with. Thank you so much Steve for joining me on my first podcast. I so appreciate it. I was happy to be here. And by the way when are you going to be 10 months alcohol free? In two days. So congratulations. Thank you. Hey let's start with telling people about what your life looked like before you started this journey being alcohol free. Okay well it's a good time to be doing this podcast as we start a new year because last January where I was at I was as Rosanne said I work as environmental compliance supervisor so basically I work in local government. I do environmental wastewater water regulations. After 23 years I'll be honest with you not super exciting. I was getting up every day. I have a very long commute. Get up at 4 a.m. drive 40 miles take a train do it was a little bike ride then it's a longer bike right now.   Just a bad attitude. I mean it was now that I look back where I'm at now I was setting up each day to have a bad day for failure. Still the same job. I come in here with just a way different outlook. As you said I'm 51 going to be 52 this summer. Public service got good pension. Going to be out here in three and a half years so I just kind of changed the way I look at my job in my past. I've had a lot of responsible for four inspectors. I've trained a lot of inspectors three years and that's one thing. Early on as I moved up in my career and moved up into management I really enjoyed that. Along the way I just I lost that. I've got two new staff two millennials that are just awesome. They break the mold. Whatever you think of millennials my two they're not like that especially working through this COVID stuff. So I've kind of just refocused in this program. I've run it for like I said 23 years. These wastewater programs I did started in the mid 80s. So I've kind of been the steward of this longer than anyone else in this program in this city. So I'm looking more of just moving on passing the torch, building them up, getting them in a position to take over for me when I go on. So it's just kind of changed the outlook instead of looking at the job. Just kind of reframing it and what I could focus on and that's something I enjoy doing. And the clarity from being alcohol free has helped me to look at the same job and look at different opportunities in it. Very cool. Tell me about your drinking habits prior to starting. So yeah that's one thing about once you know I like the 90 days and further because when you start out you're like yeah I kind of drank like this. Once you separate from that and you really get clarity and you really start looking back at how you could get a real honest picture of how you were drinking. So I was going down when I called James to join the 30 day program. I look back now as a real fork in the road. I was you know weekend drinker, binge drinker. And then the last like couple years it started going into how I'm going to get a pint before the train.  My wife never really you know she wasn't one that she didn't hassle me like you got a quick drinking. She's like you just gotta check yourself. You know throttle it back. This or that and you know and before I joined what hadn't happened I mean so when I look back at drinking I remember my last binge and my wife was so upset. Not you know and it wasn't anger. It was like you're just never never happy. What's wrong? You're not happy. You're not the guy you know I'm married and that made me really stop in my tracks. I wasn't happy with my drinking myself and then I was seeing it impact her and then you know that day like I remember my last day or my first day of sobriety or whatever. Yeah I would call it sobriety. Not drinking.  And that's kind of one of that you know I think when you think about drinking now that's my memory of that day and that talk with her. It's not it's good. It forced me to action but it's not a good one. I don't associate a lot of positive thoughts when I look back at drinking now and that's that's one of the big one to the forefront and that's when I you know I'd been looking at stuff before that I'd been looking up stuff and that's how the Project 90 Alcohol 30 things started popping up in ads and I started watching James' video and that's when I decided I gotta you know make a change. In terms of your health where were you health-wise at the beginning of your journey? So I was a whopping 251 pounds and Roseanne could post a picture later so that was at the same time I take a train right home and that picture she posted look at it because that guy you're looking at that chubby guy that's me after having I remember that day a pint of beer having kind of sluggish just got a red shirt on a big barrel-chested boiler you can see it's not it's not flattering but my friend on the train had took that and in text me that picture and I looked up over him you know because he's sitting at the other train and I'm like all right all right I'm gonna change this you know but that picture was before the the incident I told you before I called during probably another three or four weeks went by but I've changed it now. 251 pounds on medication for a mild high blood pressure I was taking medication for gout which you know what do you think the trigger for that was alcohol since then no blood pressure medication and no gout medication at all I take nothing I rarely take Tylenol or anything like that last time I took Tylenol when I was up in the my cycling and my back was just was an injury it was just you know fatigue so it's a it's a real good spot now. Wow you know you you said you started in the 30-day no alcohol challenge program and surprisingly I did too our paths are so similar but tell me about what happened after the 30 that you thought you wanted more what were the what were the conversations what was going on in that program that made you feel good about it but thought yeah I could use a little bit more. So the 30-day was great the videos were great I did the 47-day habit hacker at the same time Black had a problem getting out of bed so in the 47 47-day habit hackers you know the tool three two one get out of bed and go so I have a different routine now from that but anyways after the 30 days you know I was really engaged in that and I engaged with people on the Facebook page and I was doing good I wasn't drinking but I didn't feel after the 30 days I didn't feel confident that I had made a shift and let me tell you so you know I lost 60 pounds I cycle a lot um that's not a comeback I've been here I've been here before I've done that before in was it 1998 so it was more out of college college friends make a plan of meeting you know started a family getting a little chubby started running and I ran in ended up training did the San Francisco Marathon so any of you runners out there you know you can't run long just doesn't drink so obviously I wasn't drinking at that time I went from probably I was probably like 205 210 so I was really like I was skinny in high school I was a small guy as I was barely six foot 140 pounds when I was a senior in high school so let me tell you when you're a skinny guy and then you get in your late 20s and you start putting on weight especially with guys no one has any problem about telling you how fat you are no town you know and I you know I could take it and rub it you know it's ah whatever but you know deep down it it it hurt me and I'd play it off like it didn't hurt me and that does you know affect your confidence so um so 1998 went from 215 210 ish to I don't I weighed 172 when I did the San Francisco Marathon so uh you know running 26 miles and then I did that then I went back up in 2002 I ran a marathon up on nireland this time I got up to like 230 and I got down so it's actually stronger I got down to I ran that at about 190 and I'm about 188 189 pounds now so I've done that I've done that and I gave up alcohol at those times I've done that before I've been I've been at that spot and I had started losing weight in the 30 days um I couldn't sign up fast enough for the 90 days because I really wanted a shift in the way of my relationship with alcohol the way I saw it those other times I did it I was like okay I'm gonna run this marathon I made it a finish line and I made and I kind of associated the drinking with that so it was like okay I reached the finish line I go back and I didn't want this to be another finish line there's no finish line I wanted to change my relationship the way I see alcohol and not see it as something I give up I know that's the theme of the program I truly believe that now it is it's a choice I'm choosing to be alcohol-free I love that I made that choice I make it every day I could drink I can tell you right now I can go back hey and I could probably convince my wife I'm gonna have you know one or two drinks with that and I probably do it for a while but you know it's opening for me and I know myself and I know I know my past I know the way I'm with alcohol it's me I don't even want to I don't know it's cracking that door open and one and two becomes back to do to what you were what you don't want to be so that was what I was really I was looking for that shift in between you know here in my head right and yeah and that's um that's actually something I wanted to talk to you about too because a lot of people don't understand that Project 90 is actually a coaching program about how to live your best life right and you're just putting alcohol over here and going okay let's see what I can accomplish without that right yeah very very few conversations we have in there are about alcohol it's more about how to handle life and life's uh flips and problems and things throwing being thrown at you because a lot of times like you know what we do is a problem comes and you feel helpless and we go okay right so tell me something that happened inside Project 90 for you that was really a turning point in your relationship with looking at alcohol differently what do you think it's hard to pinpoint it to one there were you know there's so many good good moments into it before we go into that I just want to say yeah that the most I've talked about drinking was just in that last question you asked me back from all the Project 90 things that's really the most I've ever really you know talked about the specifics so um it's it's much more than that so I think you know for me it's just you know coming in the weekly calls and hearing everybody and seeing where just different people different parts of the world uh where they're at um and kind of the similarities of just you know hey I know I want to be I want to be a better you know a father mother um just you know a better person it just just those goals and seeing other people go through that and then you see similarities with with other people um you know it's hard the ship it's hard to pinpoint but it was just like it happened pretty quick you know because at the 30 day I was still like still kind of feel like I'm giving up something and then uh and then it's that shift was just like now I'm gaining just when you see other people like when you start you see other people ahead and you see how much they've gained and you go man there's there's more to gain it's not you're not giving up it's you're gaining it's free I feel so much more free right now I mean let me see if I can provide a cue for you since I went through with you and I'm not sure I was in the beginning meetings where you you started a pumpkin patch at work no idea why you did that but that ended up being a big focus for all of us tell us about why you did the pumpkin patch what you gained from it why it was important okay so that was the the beginning of the covid and uh my my boss our division manager is high risk and she needs to be at home uh so she she needed one of her management team to step up so you know I said I do it and uh which was great because I had you know started the alcohol free journey um so the the clear head the clarity even though it was in the beginning uh was good that I was getting so anyways I all of a sudden I go I manage like five or six people I go I've got the whole division at 60 it's times of uncertainty people are you know worried you know that we have to be here well water wastewater we provide service and essential so we had to come in so anyways I had wanted to grow big pumpkins in my backyard of my wife so we don't have room to do that so I started it's that's how it started and then I was growing the seeds here in the office window and people are like what are you doing I said I'm going to grow some big ass pumpkins in this little plot of land here and then it kind of grew and they're like hey well can I help I had people that I'm telling you some of these people are the most honoree people just you know I think they operate a wastewater plant that's a sewage treatment plant you know they're great guys but they're like well yeah hey can I help um and so kind of just the life of its own and it grew grew for me to do it I ended up planting like three rows we had over a hundred hundred pumpkins and it ended up being a good I go uh team building thing and that was kind of just it's good that you brought that up because that was the kind of shift we started seeing the shift in or where I started seeing the shift in my attitude and me drinking I still probably would have stepped up with my boss I had a had a shitty attitude about it why do these people get to be home we got to come into here we're the canary in the coal mine we're the guinea pig we get a little bit and I was just I just really started focusing on people when they come in and tell me that what the I go hey it is what it is we gotta we have to be here you know um and they were like you know they some people had a nickname for me they would call me mr happy because when I'd come in the office on that bike and I kind of explained how it was and it was like you know mr happy was a sarcastic way and it's just like you know I look back now and I'm like man I don't want the I don't want the world to see me that way you know oh here comes mr happy you know and this is sarcastic thing um so just started doing that and I just tried to be and without try because I was just being more positive um and just keep everybody's everybody's spirits up and you know I needed them to come in and uh and you know we had we had our challenges you know people were like go management down at city hall is not telling me that and I just told people I say hey you want to know something come in my office I will tell you everything I need to know I go these are unprecedented times and it might be something I shouldn't share with staff but I'm in charge and I get to run this the way I want and it's a pandemic and this is that so I'm going to throw some rolls out and lead and do do what I think's right I had a couple people come in um probably violated a couple hit the laws but um we're here later they're fine nothing happened that's just um so uh and that was really the beginning of the shift and I was just like going this is great and then you get the you get you know positive um feedback from people you know and then with the COVID not seeing a lot of people um not going in a lot of other departments in city hall there's a gap that people didn't see me they saw 251 then they saw maybe 220 or 200 pounds even they're like whoa what's going on and then uh I'm like hey I went I decided to be alcohol-free I've been cycling like crazy and and and this or that so um well that's um a big shift of something we talk about a lot is I get to so tell us about the things you've got to start doing that maybe you wouldn't have done otherwise okay so well let's start at the beginning of the morning I get to take a commuter train I get to take a commuter train that hits cars breaks down it's late um I get to you know this is a big one for me because the commute the life of a super commuter out here in the San Francisco Bay it's it's it's tough um but I really I really have changed the way I look at the train I laugh at myself because I started doing the journaling so I get I get to park my car take my bike get on the train I sit down I get to journal I do the journal and that's you know doing the doing the gratitudes it's a really great way to start the day and that's when my day starts when I get on the train and so that's the first thing I do every day I sit down on my thing and write the gratitude write what I want to do for the day do the daily affirmations and then I get to talk to people I have the great friends on the train that just have different jobs different stuff it's not like I didn't talk to them before it's just more engaging and present now I know more about their work I know more what's going on with them some of them in their their personal life um you know it's like someone walks in saying hey how do you how do you go with your daughter this weekend or whatever where before the conversations really weren't weren't as meaningful or whatever I know personally more about some of these folks um and I don't have to be in my car um so we need to talk about the get to with the bike in the back of you because that was okay I'll get to that so then so I can get off at a train station that's three miles from my office and that's what I was doing and coming in after those nights of three or four beers it it was a journey just a sluggish thing so then I started as I got alcohol free I started getting off at the station before coming in I get to ride seven miles this morning and the past couple weeks because I'm doing a new on-site uh online cycling challenge I kind of just bypass work I go out there's in Livermore there's uh we're a wine country out here so if you think of the San Francisco Bay area you think of East Bay you think of Oakland little east of that that's where I'm at in Livermore we've got some rolling hills used to be cattle land when I was a kid um it's kind of grown and expanded more to the berry but we still have wine country we have rolling hills um I right out there so I rode 20 miles before I came to the office this morning and I and I get to do that I feel great um I start out in the dark and as I'm coming go up into the hills as I'm coming out suns rising beautiful it totally come into work with a different attitude and you're still um inspiring others too inside the program by posting beautiful views and just you know people love to see what's ahead of them so thank you for doing that it's been fun to watch your uh your grow tell me about relationships you talked a little bit about um relationship with your wife I know you talked um about her reaction um that day that you kind of decided something had to change but what kind of shifts happened for you um my name's Julie right you and Julie yeah yeah me and Julie so I've been married to her since second marriage since uh 2014 um so it's funny as I look back because when we started dating you know you're always on your you're always on your best behavior you're always at your sweetest when you're courting this or that and so I consciously made a thing with my my drinking you know throttle it you know do less you know and then as we become comfortable or at least I do and you know I started slipping back in the little habits because she was like I didn't realize she drank so much when we had that conversation I'm like yeah um but I would say that the shifts were my wife has always her job is tough I become more a better listener and more sympathetic you know as guys we want to just solve the problem you know and get a new job you know those people there this you know instead of just listening sometimes you sometimes you just gotta listen it's not a problem I'm gonna solve especially now um she's working from home she you know she does this the zoom stuff and like I said I talk to people all day on the train um so usually when I'm home I want that I was finding myself I want to be I've been talking to people all day I've had you know I'm talked out uh so I realized she hasn't seen anybody today except the two dogs and you walking in and she's excited to see you so instead of being like oh why are you talking to me so much you know I just got my foot at the door I want to get on my biking gear I want to just just to pause and listen and listen how her day was and asked how it was and it's such a different it's like the same conversations but it's a different it's different because I have a different attitude walking in seeing that she hasn't seen you all day she hasn't talked to another human being whether I would before I was looking at man I've worked all day I've done this commute I just want to get in changing my clothes and start relaxing so just being more conscientious about other people my spouse's feelings and where where she's at so yeah I think we we use this this concept a lot of being clear and present and I think you're describing that the the result of being clear and present and I guess less reactionary would you say that you became far less reactionary too when you became alcohol free oh yeah definitely that kind of helps marriages right yeah a little bit a little bit yeah just because you know there were times in the past with that it'd be like you know I can I wear my heart and sleep and motions on my shoulders so when I'm irritated it's in you know and I've stood there with my backpack and my stuff and just being like the whole body language like you know and I'm like you know what my body is saying could you shut the hell up so I can use the bathroom and go on so it's just changing so and because I was coming from a place of irritation right because I was just focused on me so being more present go and hey she's been sitting here waiting in your long commute she's been waiting to tell you something or this or that and you should be happy that your wife is excited to see you wants to talk to you instead of you know irritated it's the same conversations it's a it's a different outcome I'm not saying every day is like that because there's some days I come in I'm like I gotta go to the bathroom I gotta do you know but overall it's more it's it's more that way and I don't start the evening out irritated which is not a good way to start the the few hours I waiting hours I have at home with my wife how um you have some kids too have you noticed um how it's affected any relationship with your children uh I would like to say yes I'd like to see my kids more I've got I've got four kids uh they are 27 25 23 and 21 so my son is off on the other on the east coast of the marines we have two daughters one at one's at UC Santa Cruz and one's at Long Beach so it's more of the text and then my my other daughter lives at home with her mom and she's off with her boyfriend all the time so they're the typical 20 year olds in fact before I got on here I just text my ex-wife I said have you heard from our youngest because I texted her last week and then I called her and said just let dad know it's okay I'm like she texted my ex-wife text back where I saw oh that's good that you said that because I thought she was mad at me I'll check with her roommate if I don't hear from her so the kids I mean they you know we spent Christmas uh together my three girls my son couldn't make it home so uh and it was funny because the whole alcohol thing uh Julie does a great dinner and she always puts like a menu together so she had a drink menu and so she was telling me oh you could you could you can mix the drinks I'm like I hate mixing drinks when I'm drinking but it was like okay my daughter's and it's like one of them one of them works in a restaurant and he did a little bartending I you know like so but before I would have been okay I'm not drink this is a chip in the attitude because um okay I'm not drinking and you want me to be Isaac from the love boat making drinks right you know but I just said okay I'll do it I don't you know so whatever so my girls came over they wanted to drink we made the first drink and that's when we one of my daughters said you really don't you're not really you don't drink at all down and I'm like no never don't plan on doing it ever again I said look at me you know because they haven't seen me they're like oh my god dad you're so skinny are those skinny jeans I'm like their jeans that fit I wouldn't call them skinny jeans um but um that's awesome no it was good and I don't know you know you worry about your kids and their own drinking when they're in their college years and stuff like that and you know my dad my dad stopped drinking later on in life and he was never one to lecture me but you know my old man had the way to give me that look like you know you better watch it you know um so you know hopefully you know my kids don't don't don't flirt with the dangers that I did but whole you know that's one of the things is where you you know you see yourself moving forward it's like you know I hope I could be you know an example to them of how much life is uh can be better without it you know I mean if you're the person that has one or two drinks and you're fine and and you do leave it at that and it's every now and then um but you know any amount's not not good for you so um if you're inclined to have more it's definitely not good for you I'm sure you're a very good inspiration for your children right now so I wish I would see them more and had had more to add on that but they're the typical 20 year olds living their lives and they're they're they're doing great I'm very proud of that yeah I have four as well and they're spread out all over the country and I feel the same way um but I can only hope that you know what I do moving forward is an inspiration so um I want to share I want to share something about um something that happened for both of us when we were in project 90 in one of those meetings for anybody who's been on a zoom meeting I know but there's something about um sharing in those intimate um group calls about experiences that makes us feel like wow we're not alone because having that loop in our brain about drinking and it's a very lonely loop right um and having the freedom to kind of just talk about different things that go on but there was one time where I was pretty uh emotional and in kind of a happy way because I think it was near the end of my journey and I had said you know I used to feel like a fraud I used to just feel like you know I know you know me and you think you like me but if you really knew and oh my gosh I'm getting emotional when I think about it but you had written me a private message thank you for sharing that Roseanne I felt the exact same way I mean can you share about how you felt when you yeah I heard you say that I saw you you know break down and cry a bit and I'm sitting there going oh this lady so I just said how I feel you know I'm like we could you know even you know you're drinking you're not coming to work you know as James says what are you you know uh what are you you know seven out of ten six out of ten um yeah I think I told him seven out of ten and I was rounded um but you can come to work and you could suck it up and you could put on you know you can get your job done most of us are all really good at our jobs and we get it done it might not be the best of our effort but it's good enough and you know I was never a good enough guy um you know I always want to put my best effort in so when you said that I'm just sitting there going man if people knew people know how I got smashed on the weekend and just wasting my time um I just sort of just really sit with me I wasn't happy with myself you know so it's like yeah if you really if you really knew me and then we're our own worst critics we focus on the negative you know I'm going to focus on that worst thing if I drank last weekend and got hammered it bothered me for weeks you know it'd just be like oh I shouldn't have drank too much Saturday it's Thursday I'm still down about it thinking about it I could have done some great things at work Monday Tuesday Wednesday boss happy but I'm like man if you really knew me you know I was tore up all weekend I you know I wasn't there for my wife I didn't get these things done I'm like you know I drove to the store what about a deuce if I got pulled over all those things I'm like yeah if you really if you saw that guy he's not so great he might be a good employee you might think he's okay but not so great and so um so when you said that I was just like oh man you're crying and you feel bad for that and I'm like I totally think this way I gotta send you a message yeah well thank you for sharing that because it made me feel not alone too and that is one of the reasons that groups and I don't feel that way now I feel like you really knew me now you know this is what 10 months in looks like yeah if you really knew me this is me yeah I gosh love getting rid of that feeling hey before we kind of sign off is there anything that you could share with those people that are listening and they're considering the program and I don't know and you know is there anything you want to share additionally that you haven't about what what has happened for you or how it's helped you that would help them well I would say if you're considering it you're googling it you're searching these ads are starting to pop up you're doing that for a reason you're you know you're doing it for a reason it's a sign um so if you're thinking you probably should um uh and then so now and it's just uh do it life is short and it's I saw man I'm only 10 months in I've made the physical change like I said I've done that before this change between years I think that's always going to be a work in process and that's that's one of the big things I've learned from it that there's no it's not a finish line it's like I complete my 90 days I'm alcohol free I'm never gonna think about this stuff again or this that um that is always continuing trying to uh to better yourself and and and make that choice to be alcohol free the things I got out of it it's just I mean the big thing is I I'm saying let me say it again it's freedom I feel so much freer now and more optimistic about the future I might I was literally approaching you say I just gotta get through today I'm gonna have my beer on the train go home and do it all over again I do not I can't believe I thought that way and I can't believe how long I I let myself think that way so my new word for it is psychological slavery yeah um because there's a loop in your subconscious brain that you're always trying to battle and um just and if I look at the money that I've saved I mean with taking the train stopping at the convenience store I probably to say for the week 90 to 100 boxes to say 100 bucks it's been 10 months just roughly that's four thousand dollars um I'm gonna go into my app I have an app where I track my days so where is it I know the last time I checked I had saved like 800 I can't find it now but I'm 309 days I've saved well over six thousand dollars and just drinking costs alone and that's in covid that's not going out to drink and buying a great martini right um I had saved 800 hours of drinking time but when I add up the mornings that I wasn't operational is probably double that right in 10 months so yeah and then just being smarter with your money there's I can give you example after I had a car repair and I said okay you know is it really this I've done a lot of business with you and I saved like 800 bucks just from a phone call a friendly phone call not going what the hell I looked at this I was just like hey you know I've done a lot of business with you you know I see the parts of it is you know and the guys I'll let me call you back so hey I talked to my service manager we could do this as a recall and only get a cost of 200 bucks it was gonna be like 900 bucks or something and I was like wow hey it pays to be happy right exactly and then just you know the whole I would say some of the biggest things I've always looked at you know obviously I've had fluctuations in my weight and I've always done a diet and I've looked at it as a goal I want to be this way I want to I'm really not I mean I've lost weight um or I do the cycling I want or when I did think I had a goal I want to run a marathon I want 26.2 miles I want to get that done I've shift I'm just like I'm just riding I'm riding a lot I do a virtual challenge online with a bunch of boats I'm actually I used to run like I gotta run 15 miles today part of this training thing and I'd be running angry uh when I was running and now and now it's just like I go out hey I'm doing this and I'm still trying to push myself I still have a distance I want to go um I'm not looking at um this is like a lifestyle it's like I want to be active um I look to the future like I got three daughters and a son and I want and how I want to be remembered how I want to be seen I don't want to be grandpa that had one too many at the family dinner I want my grandkids to go my grandpa that crazy bastard's badass got a big heart but he'll go he can get up and go I want you know I that's you know and that's what we get to we get to write me the future is wide open and uh I mean I can you know I can make bad choices and go back and I can be that guy you know that I've got video proof so if no hope we're not gonna do that um but you know just look to the future what what I want to be I'd look how I want to be remembered here and that's another thing I when I went to city hall right before Christmas someone saw me they're like oh my god Steve you look so different and this was someone I'll be sad work with for years it's her little retirement luncheon um and then I saw someone new and this was this was like kind of a aha moment for me so hey you're that crazy guy that rides all over the place and I go I go yeah I am and she wanted to talk to me about bikes her her uh brother or something worked for one of the bike specialized bikes and I said oh that's my bike that I have and uh I walked away from that and I was thinking I like that you're the crazy guy that rides all over the place because I go riding that luncheon before work and I because when I came here 20 years ago I was a crazy young kid that ran everywhere I'd run on my lunch times and I'm like maybe I can you know if I go out I've got four or five more years I I want people to think bad of me because there's plenty here they're getting older that you know they're not the conferences with me we go and we haven't you know we go and have a good time oh you guys are going in for the night no I don't got a speaker so tomorrow we're going out having fun uh so I would like the new people that are coming here and there's a big you know that we got an aging workforce uh I'm on the lower end of that I'm 52 um but a lot of people are going out a lot of new people are coming in just a great time to be alcohol-free with new people coming into the workplace hopefully grandkids coming at some point in my life and um and me figuring out what I want to do in my retirement years looks like you've started uh a little figure out a little something here and shining success from uh from pupil to teacher so yay Roseanne and uh be part of your first podcast here uh hopefully having bored people to to to death here and uh you could show them that picture if you want to edit that in or something it's it's it's glorious I definitely will Steve I um I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for doing my first podcast with me thanks for asking me I couldn't have planned for a better you know uh chat and podcast it's just been great going through this process with you and seeing your progress and sharing each other on so thank you for being here now you're welcome it's a pleasure okay we'll see you soon okay take care thanks for listening to the alcohol-free lifestyle podcast I want to load you up with some free stuff right now so if you want to go to jameswanick.com slash guide I will send you my quit alcohol guide which has helped six figure entrepreneurs and top professionals produce or quit drinking you can also text the word quit guide to the number 44222 if you're in the US of course it doesn't really work anywhere outside of the US but if you're in the US on your mobile phone and you'd like that guide text the word quit guide to the number 44222 or you can go to jameswanick.com slash guide if you'd like to schedule a free 15-minute call with one of my top coaches just an exploratory call to see if or how we can help you then you can go to jameswanick.com slash schedule or you can text the word project 90 to the number 44222 if you're listening in the US on a mobile phone that's jameswanick.com slash schedule or you can text the word project 90 that's one word project 90 to the number 44222 feel free to send me a direct message over on my instagram account which is at jameswanick you can also watch video episodes of this podcast and a series of other educational videos on my youtube channel which is jameswanick one or you can direct message me on facebook at jameswanick official and finally a request would you please now write a short review of the podcast inside of the apple podcast app on your phone or on itunes on your desktop computer would you please give the show five stars and write a quick one or two sentence review this will help the show get in front of even more listeners potentially transforming someone's life you can rate and review the show inside of your apple podcast app on your phone or over on itunes on your desktop thank you so much and i'll catch you next time


Okay, so with that, let's plunge in. So the first question I wanna ask, and I'll say a little bit on why I'm asking this. So people have seen, I've assumed, the stock market plunging. They've seen other economic disruptions, certainly unemployment claims in the U.S. are starting to go up. And they're talking about stimulus, some have been passed. So people have seen, but I'm sure there's a lot of stuff they haven't seen. And like you guys as active in the field and in the markets that are seeing things. So I wanna get part of that perspective, but I wanna get how you were thinking about the markets prior to this, I mean, so in, we were in the U.S. at record highs in 2020, just before this pandemic is really hitting and disrupting everything. And were you thinking of it as the market is sort of right for some kind of thing that's gonna cause a fall or not? And the reason I'm asking this is how much does it condition the way you're looking at the present of what is happening that it was like it was getting too high. So there was gonna be some kind of event that's gonna, and then the steepness of the fall. So I wanna get from both of your perspectives, sort of how you, a little more widely how you were looking at the markets prior to this. Who ever wants to go for it? I mean, I guess I was definitely in the camp that we were ripe for a fall. You know, I think distortions over the last 10 years where we've had near zero interest rates for most of the last 10 years have caused an incredible amount of distortions. You know, going back to the 2000s, in 2003, the Fed reduced the interest rate to 1%, which at the time was an absurdly low interest rate that sparked the housing bubble. Because people could borrow cheaply short-term and get cheap mortgages, adjustable rate mortgages. Corporations could borrow cheaply short-term and so on. So that caused all kinds of distortions in the housing bubble era, which had to eventually get washed out, which they were. But then the response was the Fed lowered interest rates to zero, which is completely absurd. Fortunately, we have not gone negative interest rates, which is even beyond absurd, which Japan and Europe have done. So we had zero interest rates from 2008 until 2015. And I think, you know, initially things were slow, but in the last few years, there's been just a tremendous amount of debt piled up by corporations. I think corporations are at the most levered level ever. The stock market has really taken off and I think unmoored from the fundamentals. So last year, S&P 500, the earnings were actually down for the S&P 500 stocks. The stock market was up 30%. And we're starting to see some signs of late-stage bubbles like all of a sudden Tesla goes from $200 to $900 for no reason. All of a sudden SpaceX goes from $10 to $40 a share for no reason. So I think we're definitely right for a fall. I've, for a couple of years, I've been saying and thinking that I think the coming crash would be worse than 2008. So I was expecting definitely that there would be some big unraveling. I didn't know the timing. It's always hard to predict the timing of those things. Now, the coronavirus came along and I think that greatly exacerbated it. So that is a huge one-off negative thing, but I think would have been a lot less bad if the markets hadn't been so revalued. So I basically agree with all of that. My challenge has always been when, right? We all know that these distortions and provisions and I think the key here really is the Fed. That is the stock market in many respects is responding to what the Fed is doing. And if you've got interest rates at zero or the equivalent of zero and you're discounting future present, discounting future cashflow, future earnings, you get very big numbers if your interest rate is very little. So the interest rates really distorts and perverts economic decision-making on a grand scale. It makes projects that would seem unprofitable in a normal environment suddenly profitable and you get investments that shouldn't be made and investments should be made or not made. So you get a complete distortion of where the money actually flows and how that translates into stock prices to me has always been, I could always sense, yeah, it seems a little high but I'm usually early as I think Rob was there when I was buying put options on Amazon in 1999 and a year too early. Just say a word about what put options are, I'm not sure I don't know. Put options are basically a bet on and a relatively cheap way to bet if you will on prices going down, on the price of a stock going down. So you get paid if the stock goes down, you lose your initial investment if the stock stays flat or goes up. So you're captain how much you can lose but you can make a lot of money on the other side and I did it a year too early which is I've got a long history of doing that. So timing of course in investing is important but yes what the Fed has been doing and it's not just that they've kept interest rates low at the low end but what quantitative easing did if you remember QE one, two and three where the Fed was buying mortgage back securities it was buying government bonds. It was also then lowering interest rates on the long end. So it was artificially lowering interest rates not just on the short end which is bad enough but also on the long end. So think about different bonds have different maturities different bonds pay off over different time frames. And typically when we talk about interest rates or the Fed does, it talks about interest rates you know overnight interest rates or very short term interest rates but actually that interest is gonna be different than a 10 year or 30 year pay off but the Fed for the first time really on a scale was manipulating long-term rates not just short-term rates over the last 10 years. And that has again profound impacts on the way people invest on the way people think about risk. Not dumb, what's the term? It dulls people's sensitivity to risk and what we saw before 2008 and what we saw here is people weren't demanding a higher return for higher risk or not as much as seems rational. So the whole investment world was distorted and you also see and you saw different industries going different directions and some stocks were very, very cheap other stocks were I thought pretty cheap relative to what was going on but it's so hard to make long-term decisions because yes, something's gonna trigger it. And the thing about the coronavirus that triggers is it's not like, it's not like housing triggered OA where you knew where the crisis was gonna be it was, you know and then it would have spillover effects. Here the trigger and we'll talk about this some more is basically the entire economy. It's not in the mal-invested section it's everywhere is collapsing and then how do you estimate what's gonna hood more and what it's much more complicated I think because they're shutting down production. Yeah, so let's talk about. I was just gonna say the, well you know I think one thing to say is that for the housing bubble yes, the mal-investment was concentrated in the housing sector. I think there's a good argument in the latest episode it has been the whole economy. So I mean, I know what you're saying the coronavirus has shut down the whole economy but you know, I think the mal-investment has been the whole economy. Some people are calling it the everything bubble. You know, stocks that are at record valuations bonds are at record valuations, real estates at record valuations and so on. So I think there's a sense in which the whole economy was ripe for a fall. So if we separate out but if it's possible to separate out the coronavirus, so it's hitting the news December, there's already government action at least in China of locking down cities and so on. But the disruption that, oh, we might have this novel virus that's deadly and I mean, fairly deadly and contagious. And that is like that's a disruption to things and to life and to some extent at least. And what was, how is the market reacting to that? But then you get massive government reaction to it locking down a cities when it gets to Italy it's first it seems like they're not doing much but then they're locking down whole regions and then you get central bank action in regard to it from the Fed, but not just I think as you said earlier Rob, not just the Fed. So in terms of how the market was reaction to there's this new novel virus that might be a threat and then to all the government action in response to that, if you can at all separate those. Yeah, and actually let me throw a third thing on the pile too, it's just the crash and oil prices. Yeah, I have that on the list. Yeah, so there's three big things we're dealing with. So there's just the general overvaluation that was ripe for a fall, the coronavirus and then the oil collapse, which is Saudi Arabia and Russia basically letting loose and saying we're gonna let prices fall. I think a big part of the motivation is to clear out the shale oil producers. There's been a bane in their thorn in their side. But that's been a big part of the US economy over the last 10 years. One of the biggest sources of employment growth. So we're dealing with that collapsing now on top of everything else. And then as you say, Ankara, so then, so we've got three big economic issues, any one of which by themselves would have been a big deal. The oil one, the least of all, but it would still have been a big hurt to the economy. And then we have to deal with response. We've got, what are the policy makers likely to do both the Fed in terms of monetary and liquidity stimulus? What are the, what's Congress likely to do? And then we have to think based on what they are likely to do and might do, what are the likely effects of that of the things they do? And then the third thing is, well, long-term, what are the long-term effects? So the so-called unintended consequences or what's the hangover from all the stuff that they end up doing now? So how do I think about that? It's definitely a multi-dimensional test board, if I can use that word, trying to figure all that stuff out. So yeah, I think that's why a lot of market participants are just completely at a loss. So you hear everybody saying from the top memes of the top hedge fund guy saying they're just, they have absolutely no idea what's going on or how to play it, so. So say, so part of what you were asking is, how did the markets react early and how they're doing? So the S&P peaked in February when this was all known. And I think that two reasons for that, one is one of the things that the mixed economy does is again, it dulls the mind in terms of long-term thinking and estimating real risk. And I can't imagine in a free market, people would have looked at what was going on in China and said, eh, we're gonna go to all-time highs in the stock market and we're gonna continue buying as if nothing's going on because that's what they did.  So, and then you saw what the Chinese did and what hit, it took their own economy. By then, by the time the S&P was hitting all-time highs, the Chinese economy was already projected to be in a massive recession. So everybody knew that this, so you have to wonder what was, you know, why people were ignoring this. And again, I think this has to do with the sudden dulling of risk because the government will take care of it the federal Soviet, things will happen. And then starting in, I think it's around February 22nd, the market started declining and the market kind of the realization of what's happening starts hitting partially because of what's happening in Europe, partially what's happening in China, but also then it becomes clear that our government is now, you know, starting to really shut things down. And the real panic I think is set in, in the last two weeks, and it reminded me of 2008 because I've always thought that the market in 2008, the market really took a hit when investors came to the conclusion that the people they were counting on, Benanke and Paulson, had no idea what they were doing were completely clueless. And that happened around Lehman, right? It wasn't the Lehman bankruptcy. It was the complete randomness of the Lehman bankruptcy. The fact that they were not bailed out and the next 24 hours later, somebody else was, right? The insurance company, the names, social media.  And if you don't, by the way, it's the end of the world, he tells the audience. So whether you think, make sure to be bailed out or not the way it was done was full of hysteria and panic on behalf of the politicians on the side of the politicians. And I think that's when the market basically decided, maybe it is the end of the world. And the people who supposedly know have no clue what is going on. They don't know what to do. And everything collapsed at that point in a much more dramatic fashion than had previously. So I think it's that. And I think the same thing has been felt the last two weeks. My sense of the market has been and talking to investors and people like that is, we don't know what these people are gonna do. I mean, every day the Fed comes out with a new program. We don't know what that's gonna be in this stimulus package. We can't price it. We can't quite figure out how to do with it. And then what does it mean that everybody has to stay at home? Wait a minute, that means nobody goes to work. Well, what's the implication of nobody going to work on the economy? I mean, you can't even really conceptualize that. What does that actually mean? It means no production. That's zero GDP, not zero GDP growth but just no economic activity. That is unthinkable. And I think most of us have a really hard time dealing with uncertainty anyway or dealing with risk anyway.  How do we even think about that? How do you conceptualize that? And I think most people just gave up and you saw in the last two weeks and accelerating into the end of this week kind of people just saying, you know, we don't know what the hell is going on so we better be in cash because cash we know approximately what it's worth. We have no clue what this other stuff is worth. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a sense of sell everything, liquidate everything. So just indiscriminate selling across every market. So not just stocks, there were massive dislocations in credit markets, massive dislocations in the treasury bond market which is supposed to be the safest and most liquid bond market. Massive dislocations in the currency market which is by far the largest dollar volume of trade. It's like 4 trillion of trading every day.  Like one day Norwegian Krone fell 13% in a single day. So yeah, so I think it was just this attitude of de-risk, de-leverage, sell everything indiscriminately, get out because we just, you know who the hell knows what's going on. And people are going to dollars. People view the dollar as a safe haven and the dollar is going through the roof against all the currency. I'm surprised gold isn't doing better but I think people are also pricing in the idea of what people call deflation of rather than of, you know sense the purchasing power increasing not for the right reasons maybe, but increasing. So it's hard to tell exactly what's going on there but also, oh, I did want to say something about oil. I'm a little bit less, it's a little bit less obvious to me the impact of what's going on with oil. And again, I think it's more uncertainty than anything else because the fact is that cheap oil is good for almost every other activity except fracking and the people who support fracking. Now yes, a chunk of the US economy particularly in Texas is dedicated to fracking but China, for example as it's ramping up production back up now that they've loosened up the restrictions is benefiting enormously from very cheap oil. They have cheap energy. They can now ramp up production at much lower cost of production which I think helps them. I think it helps us when we go back to work if we go back to work energy costs will be lower which is for the most of the US economy a good thing, not a bad thing. So I do think oil is a mixed bag. It's short-term consequences on the oil patch but it's long-term consequences of the general economy are pretty good. If it stays this low, but again, who knows? As Saudi Arabia, I mean the whole goal here the reason Saudi Arabia is one of the reasons it's keeping low prices is to destroy fracking and to basically gain a monopoly or gain greater market share as it does that it's not gonna keep prices low. How much of an issue for the oil do you think that it's and the disruptiveness is that these are political decisions. So in a, even a semi-free industry it's, you don't have a whole country saying, okay, we're changing how much oil we're gonna produce. So how much of it, it adds to the political uncertainty of what are they and are they gonna cut they're gonna change it dramatically in one month from now. So how much do you think it adds to the political uncertainty? Yeah, I mean, I think it does because politically what are people gonna do? Politically, I mean, just think about the idea bailouts.  It adds uncertainty to how people are gonna behave and what people are going to do. So it's, and then what is Russia gonna do? I mean, this is the thing that even more sensitive than our fracking industry. The fact is that Russia, the cost to produce oil in Russia is high. The reason Saudi Arabia can do this, I can't remember the exact number but it costs something like 38 cents a barrel to get oil out of the ground in Saudi Arabia. And they can sell it for, right now it's a 21, 22, something like that. So their profit margin is pretty healthy. Now, it's the only industry in Saudi Arabia so they subsidize everything else using this. So it's very questionable how long they can keep doing this. They probably can't. But Russia has a very high cost of production. They're in the North Sea and in Siberia and it's very expensive to produce oil. They cannot survive under this. What happens if the Russian economy collapses? What trickle effect does that have on Europe which relies on natural gas from Russia and all kinds of things that you start imagining. And I think part of your point on call is if Saudi Arabia had 20 companies and then nobody would be coordinating this. Like one company would increase one. Yeah, the fact that it's centralized, the fact that it's nationalized makes it so much worse which I don't know if it's a topic we're going to discuss but it's part of the, it's why our healthcare system and why Italy's healthcare system and all these healthcare systems are struggling so much is because they have the same structure, it's centralized. Yeah, and I mean, the political risk is very real. Tomorrow Saudi Arabia and Russia could reach an agreement and say, hey, actually we've come to an agreement to raise oil prices to $40, $50 a barrel or they may not, you know, there's been Russia, I think a lot of times they're talking big but Russia says we can last 10 years with oil prices at this level because of their sovereign wealth fund and so on and so forth. Saudi Arabia, as Ron says, they have very low cost of production but somebody calculated that they need $84 a barrel in order for their budget to be balanced in order to generate- They're well-fisted going. Yeah, exactly. They're actually well-fisted. Yeah, so how long can they last with low oil prices? You know, their motive in large part is to clear out the shale frackers because one thing that's happened is that oil used to be very inelastic, meaning that if you raised the price, if you restricted supply and raised the price, oil producers would still make more money even though they're selling less. But what the shale frackers have done is they flattened out, they made it very elastic. So as soon as oil goes up a little bit, they can flood the market with oil.  So that has kind of stymied OPEC and Russia who, you know, they want to collude in order to cut supply and raise the price. So that's been the thorn in their side. So they want to clear those guys out has been the basic motive. But, you know, how long will they keep prices low? Will they announce something new tomorrow? That's like you said, that's just part of why markets are unable to deal with this. So I want to add one more, one point to the point we made earlier about the stock market being too high or whatever. Somebody reminded me in the super chat of it. Part of my struggles with getting, where it's overvalued, undervalued and so on, or where is the, is the fact that while all the distortions are there, I do think, you know, production is happening. We're getting products that enhance human life. Standard of living, I think, generally has increased over the last 10 years. How much of that is actually reflected in profit and valuations? How much is the profit and valuations bubble driven by interest rates? And that's what, and you see, that's what government intervention economy does. It makes it impossible to separate, to figure out what's real and what's not. What's true investment, what's true life enhancing production and what's bubble and wouldn't exist otherwise. And I've always had a hard time because I tend naturally to focus on all the good stuff, which is, oh, look at my iPhone, it's even better now. And so Apple should be worth more or whatever, right? That's pretty superficial, but you know, that kind of attitude. But at the same time, recognizing the no, some of this is clearly driven by government action and Fed action and low interest rates and artificiality that is created and lack of competition and a bunch of other things that the mixed economy produces. Yeah, I mean, one thing of artificiality is just because interest rates have been so low, corporations have been able to leverage up to an unprecedented extent. So corporate debt is at all time highs and they've been using a lot of that debt to do share buybacks, which in general, share buybacks are not a bad thing, but if they're doing them because they're able to issue a lot of debt because interest rates are low and then they have a lot of money to do share buybacks which elevates the stock market. One of the biggest sources of new money into the stock market has been corporate share buybacks. So how much of the elevated stock market level is just due to that. I think probably a substantial amount. And those are going away now. So I mean, corporations are not going to be able to do buybacks anymore. So another factor of low interest rates is that does jack up corporate earnings. If companies 10 years ago had to issue bonds at 8% and now they can issue them at 4%, well, that goes right to the bottom line. So if interest rates normalized and credit spreads normalized, all of a sudden the earnings are gonna take a hit. So there have been questions about, people are posting questions about, what does this remind you of? So I think you've both talked about 2008, but so both the crash, but the government and Fed or central bankers response to that. Going back through, may say the history of the 20th century, does it remind you of other episodes? And particularly, and you might not know about this, but so like during the Spanish flu pandemic, how did markets react to that? How did governments react to that? And was it quite different than what is going on now or are there similarities? Well, if I think, just my, I'm not an expert on that period, but I think back in 1918, there was nothing special going on. We actually hit a recession, I think in 1920. And that's a recession where famously the government did nothing and we came out of it really, really quickly. But I don't think there was any real market response in 18 and 19 that I can tell. Now, nothing dramatic enough to make the history books in a sense that I've read about in the United States even though a lot of people died. I mean, a lot of people died in the worldwide and the tens of millions of people died from the Spanish flu. And I'm sure it had some economic consequences, but it wasn't so concentrated and the economy didn't shut down. So the economy must have taken some hit, but not enough to generate a major economic downturn. Yeah, and I think 1918 is kind of hard, 1920 is kind of hard just because I think things are so different now. So the stock market was a much tinier part of the economy back then. Very few companies would go public at that time. And then also we were just coming out of World War I. So a lot of the economy is geared towards war production and then that was going to be shifted to non-war time production and so on. So it's hard to say exactly what the parallels would be. I do in some sense, I think it is like 2008 because I thought the unraveling of ultra low interest rates would cause some kind of crash and a quick unraveling. And markets became very fragile too. Another aspect is just there was a lot of illiquidity in the markets which made them more fragile and ripe to a crash. But the issue of the economy shutting down because of quarantines or because of social distancing and so on, that I can't really think of any parallels. And that's the new thing that I'm still trying to wrap my head around and I've got to think it's going to be really bad. I think people are just trying to figure that out right now. Okay, so let's talk about that in a minute but let's talk just a little bit about on the more monetary policy and this issue both explain the issue of illiquidity but also the Fed response and how much do you read it? So the Fed cut rates and cut it dramatically on a Sunday which many people interpreted as its patent we have to do it even before the markets open. So interpreted as the feds panicking about this how much do you view it as this was an economic decision versus a political because they also had pressure from President Trump to do something. And he was even talking about removing the pet they're supposed to be independent but removing that. So how much did you view it as this was essentially this was they're worried about illiquidity and they have to do this or it's a lot political that they're doing it to appease the whole policy. I would bet it wasn't that political. Like I think the Fed was due to meet on Wednesday anyways and it was widely expected they would cut by 1% on Wednesday. So in effect they just advanced it by three or four days. I mean it is unprecedented to do an emergency cuts on a Sunday. So I think there's only been something like three past occasions where they've done an emergency cut between meeting between meetings like that but they were going to do it on Wednesday anyways. You know the market you could you can see implied in the market what the fed's going to do and generally the Fed validates whatever the market's expected. So for a couple of weeks now the market's been saying the Fed's going to cut by 75 basis points or a full percentage point. So I think that was probably baked in the cake already. But the market could have anticipated political the political pressure which was happening all the time. So it's hard to tell from that but I agree. I think the Fed would have done it anyway. I think that's what the Fed does. What is it? It doesn't know how to do anything other than in the face of potential recession cut rates. That's kind of baked into everything that they do. But notice that they cut interest rates one time before two weeks ago they cut interest rates and they did it in the middle of the week normal time and the markets just collapsed as soon as the announcement was happening particularly bank stocks just plummeted. And I think what they thought was we'll do it on a Sunday. People will have time to think about it and see that it's the right thing to do and we'll get a positive response from the markets. Of course all that happened was instead of collapsing the day of the announcement the market was down the next day. But I think nothing really changed in terms of reaction but I think the reason for the Sunday was just hope that the markets would treat it with more calm. And I think instead the markets read it even though they were expecting it they read it as yeah it's as bad as we think it is. It's as bad as we thought it was and it's really really really bad. So the Fed is. Yeah I mean immediately after the announcement markets opened about an hour later the overnight electronic markets and they were limit down. Exactly, immediately. And then they opened in Monday morning and they were limit down and they shut down for 15 minutes. So it was the worst day I think since I can't remember since. Yeah so yeah Monday was down 12% that's the third worst day ever. Second worst day in the last 80 years. And 29 yeah. Yeah and so 1987 will never be beaten because now they shut down the market if it's down 20% or more. So that record will stand forever until they change the rules. I remember that day in 87 that was something. What we need today what I call the new intellectual would be any man or woman who is willing to think. Meaning any man or woman who knows that man's life must be guided by reason by the intellect not by feelings, wishes, whims or mystic revelations. Any man or woman who values his life and who does not want to give in to today's cult of the stare, cynicism and impotence and does not intend to give up the world to the dark ages and to the role of the collectivist brought. Using the super chat and I noticed yesterday when I appealed for support for the show many of you stepped forward and actually supported the show for the first time. So I'll do it again. Maybe we'll get some more today. If you like what you're hearing if you appreciate what I'm doing then I appreciate your support. Those of you who don't yet support the show please take this opportunity go to youronbrookshow.com slash support or go to subscribestart.com, your own book show and make a kind of a monthly contribution to keep this going. I'm not sure when the next...


The story you were about to hear is true. The names have been changed to protect the innocent. Fatima Cigarettes. Best of all, King-sized cigarettes brings you dragnet.  You're assigned to homicide detail. An unidentified woman is found murdered in a hotel room. Cause of death, strangulation. There's no lead to the identity of the killer. Your job, find him. The latest Fatima sales report shows thousands and thousands of King-sized cigarette smokers are switching to Fatima. For the month of October, coast to coast actual figures show Fatima sales are up 110%, or more than double. Fatima, best of all, King-sized cigarettes. Definitely the best quality in its class, but the same price as the cigarette you're now smoking. Remember, thousands of Americans are switching to extra mild Fatima. Next time, insist on the best. King-sized Fatima in the distinctive golden yellow package. Dragnet, the documented drama of an actual crime. For the next 30 minutes in cooperation with the Los Angeles Police Department, you will travel step-by-step on the side of the law through an actual case transcribed from official police files. From beginning to end, from crime to punishment, Dragnet is the story of your police force in action. It was Tuesday, October 27th. It was cold in Los Angeles. We were working the day watch out of homicide. My partner's Ben Romero. The boss is Thad Brown, Chief of Detectives. My name's Friday. It was 1.35 p.m. when we got to the old central jail building, third floor, the crime lab. How you doing, Lee? Hi, Ben, Joe. How's it going? Did you check the stuff yet? Yeah, most of it. Come on back here. Okay. Well, this is all of it. Did you find anything we can get a lead out of? Nothing too good, no. I don't think you could identify it from what we've got here. Did Morgan post the body yet? Yeah, just this morning. How about fingerprints, Lee? Did they find any in that hotel? No, foreign prints, no. Dead end there. What about the woman's purse? Did she show anything? No chance. You can see the fabric here. Won't take a print. Contents of the purse here, usual stuff. A comb, lipstick, key chain, one key on it, half pack of chewing gum, coin purse, a dime, two nickels in it. That's all of it. According to the room clerk at the hotel, she had a wallet with her when she checked in. There's no sign of that, was there? Nope. No sign of it in the hotel room either. Checked everything. Is that the only piece of jewelry found on the body, that wedding ring there? Yeah, it's a cheap ring. No markings on it. No way of tracing it. But the only thing I can tell you, she was pretty well-dressed. That's an expensive bag there. Sure, not a cheap dress either. Same for her coat and shoes. They cost the money, too. How about labels on any of that stuff? One on the coat, you can see right here. Been with departments to all Los Angeles. Coats fairly new. They might be able to give you something on it. Oh, really? The people at the hotel, got anything there? Well, it could have been better, Lee. The woman checked in last night around 8 o'clock. She registered as John Ross and wife, L.A. Anyone see the man with it? No, nobody. Room clerk says the woman came in alone. She said her husband was out parking the car, so she registered for both of them. Clerk said he left the desk a few minutes after that. Figures the man must have come in sometime while he was gone. Nobody on duty at the desk after midnight. He could have left the hotel anytime after that without being seen. She registered at 8 p.m. in Corning and said she'd died about 1030. You're not even sure there was a man with it, are you? Yeah, the woman who was registered next door to the murder room. She told us she heard a man and a woman arguing. That was about 10 o'clock. She got pretty loud. No idea who the woman really was, huh? I suppose that John Ross and wife business doesn't mean anything. That's pretty doubtful. But all we got to go on is the physical description from the coroner. She was a small woman. 5'1", 99 and a quarter pounds, wasn't that it, Ben? Yeah. Brown hair, blue eyes, about 31, 32 years old. We got her prints off to Washington. Got any ideas? We figured maybe it could be a psycho killer. How'd you figure? The coroner's report listed strangulation as a cause of death. Yeah? Whoever did it made sure her neck was broken. At approximately 6 o'clock that morning in a second floor room of a downtown hotel, the body of an unidentified woman was found murdered. Preliminary investigation failed to reveal the true identity of the victim or the killer. As far as physical evidence was concerned, there wasn't much to go on. The deep bruises on her neck and throat along with a crushed vertebrae at the base of her skull indicated a savage attack. 1.55 p.m. Through the label on the dead woman's coat, we traced the garment to a department store where it had been purchased, but they had no record on it. It was a cash purchase and the sales girl couldn't remember the customer. Investigation during the next two days failed to turn up any leads. We showed a moored picture of the victim to bartenders, waitresses, parking lot attendants in the vicinity of the hotel. They couldn't identify her. We rechecked tenants and employees at the hotel. That got us nothing. Thursday, 5.48 p.m. One answer I'd sure like to find. Yeah? The victim was a nice-looking woman, well-dressed, nice clothes. How come she's staying at a cheap hotel down in a neighborhood like that? It doesn't jib for my money. Well, that's hard to say. Sure got me, stop. Two days leg work and win no play. Well, we might be in better shape when we get that kick back from Washington.  Hey, excuse me? Yes, sir. Can we help you? Well, no, I don't know. Guess I had all the pens. I'm waiting for a couple of detectives here. Well, who is it you wanted to see? Couple of detectives. Who are they? That's pretty confidential, you know. I have to talk to them. Told me to see Friday and Romero. Ben Friday and Joe Romero. Detectives handling the case. Yes, sir, I'm Joe Friday. This is my partner, Ben Romero. We're handling the case. What do you want to see us about? They said you were working on that murder case, that woman they found in the hotel. Yes, sir, that's right. That's so? I see your badges. Yes, sir. Here's our identification. Mm-hmm. Forget about that murder in the paper, you know. You better come over here. Yeah. You're gonna thank me for this. I got all you want to know about that murder. You mind telling us your name, sir? I don't mind. Al P. Morgan. I was a good friend of hers, you know, used to work with him. You mean the dead woman? It's the same one. I never forget a face, Maude McLeod. Saw that picture in the paper and I said to myself, there's old Maude. You're pretty sure of that, aren't you, Mr. Morgan? Sure, I'm sure. Maude McLeod used to work together in the circus. Maude was a bareback girl, you know, best in the country, real trooper. What makes you so sure it's the same woman, Mr. Morgan, or when was the last time you saw this friend of yours, this Maude McLeod? Well, I used to see her all the time. Worked the old cells' photo together. Got a photo of her. Do you mind if we take a look at it, sir? So I came down here. I want to help out. She's got to be identified. Let's see. Got it here somewhere. It's old Maude in a circus costume. Yeah. Here, just take a look at that. That's Maude, ain't it? Well, I don't know, sir. It doesn't seem to be too much resemblance here. Is that right? I'm afraid you've made a mistake, Mr. Morgan. Thanks for your cooperation anyhow. I appreciate you coming in. Well, sure it was Maude. I got it. Homicide Friday. Oh, yeah, Frank, uh-huh. Is that right? What did it say? Huh? Yeah. Okay, fine. No, we'll pick it up. Yeah, thanks. Anything? Communications. They got the kickback from Washington on the dead woman's fingerprints. Any left? They got her identified. She worked at an aircraft plant during a war. Names Doris Frazier. I can't help but think your fellows are missing a bet. I knew that dead woman. Well, she's already been identified, Mr. Morgan. We know who she is. Her name's Doris Frazier. That's her. Yes, sir. That's right. Oh, what do you think of that? Old Maude. She went and changed her name. Thursday, 6.35 p.m. Ben and I went down the hall to communications and got a copy of the kickback from Washington. The murder victim was identified as Doris Eileen Frazier. She applied for a position as a typist at the Eagle Aircraft Plant in Burbank in 1942. Next morning, we checked the personnel office at the plant and we found that Doris Frazier had been employed as a typist from 1942 to 1944. And going over her application, we found her last known address listed as 7346 Oakdale Avenue. Her application stated she was single with no previous employment, with no known relatives. We could uncover no further information on the girl. We drove across town to the Oakdale Avenue address, a large apartment building in a better than average neighborhood. The manager told us that Doris Frazier had lived there up to eight months before. He said that a few weeks before she moved, she was married to a tall, dark-haired man, but he was unable to remember his name. The manager also told us that the newly married couple apparently began having trouble from the day that they were married. We checked the next forwarding address, a boarding house for women in the south end of the city. Ben and I interviewed the woman in charge of Mrs. Frances Watson. We talked to her back in the kitchen of the boarding house while she polished a set of silverware. I saw that picture in the paper. I didn't connect it with Doris though. She was a much prettier girl when she lived here. You say she left here about 18 months ago, Mrs. Watson? Yes, maybe a little more. It might be closer to two years. I'd have to check my rent receipts to be sure. Did you happen to know anything about the Frazier girl, Mrs. Watson? I mean, did you know much about her personal life at all? Well, of course, I always insist on references. Any good boarding house does, you know. Doris was a nice girl in many ways. Of course, she had her shortcomings. I suppose we all do. When she first came here, she seemed like such a nice girl. And then she started to go downhill. I just don't know what got into her. Well, how do you mean, ma'am? Was she in some kind of trouble? Well, of course, when she first came here, we didn't know it, but she was married. This is a home for single girls. We have our rules and regulations, just like any other respectable place. Yes, ma'am. We understand. Well, as we came to find out later, Doris wasn't only married, but she was fighting with her husband. I understand he wasn't much at all. She was thinking of getting the horse, as a matter of fact. Well, did you ever meet her husband, Ms. Watson? No, I never did. I suppose it's just as well. I didn't understand that Doris left him after they'd been married only a few months. Mm-hmm. Do you know what his name is, ma'am? No, I have no idea. Doris always used a maiden name. She was with me. Then you never saw this man, Ms. Watson? He never came to house here? No, I didn't say I never saw him. I said I didn't meet him. Yes. There was once when he came to the house to see Doris. What was the occasion? You mind telling us about it? Oh, it was most unpleasant. I can tell you that. Let me see now. Yes, Doris had been here about six months. Even by that time I was beginning to see the real side of the girl. No character, Sergeant. No character at all. It shows up every time. Yes, ma'am. What if you'd go on, please? Well, as I was saying, it was after about six months when this man brought Doris home late one night, about a quarter till midnight, I'd say, upset the whole house. How was that, ma'am? The two of them, this man and Doris, they stood right out there in the hall at a terrible quarrel. The language, it was dreadful. The top of their lungs, too. My husband went out to quiet them down, but the man left before he had a chance to call him down. He upset the whole house. Now, this man that the phrase your woman was arguing with, you're sure that that was her husband? Well, as sure as I can be. That's what Doris told me anyway, the day after. I called her in and told her I just couldn't tolerate behavior like that. It upset her quite a bit, I remember. She cried, said it wouldn't happen again. That's when she told me she was trying to get a divorce. Is that what the big argument was about? Would you know that? Yes, she said she wanted a divorce. Her husband didn't. He wanted her back with him. Certainly is sad the way some people mix up their lives. Yes, ma'am. By any chance that you get a good look at this man, the husband, I mean? Well, he was tall and had dark hair. That's about all I remember. He was well-dressed, too. I see. When Doris Frazier left here, Mrs. Watson, did she leave a forwarding address with you? No, she didn't. I haven't any idea where she moved. What kind of work was she doing while she was living here? Do you have any idea where she was employed? Yes, that was one of the references she gave me. A furniture company down on Venice Boulevard, if I remember correctly. I have the address, my record book. Certainly is unfortunate. The whole thing. Yes, ma'am, it is. He even tried to talk to her before she left. I sat her down and talked to her for a whole afternoon. I guess it was just a waste of time. How's that, ma'am? Trouble with her husband. Terrible thing. He seemed to treat her so badly, two of them fighting all the time. I believe she was actually afraid of him. She told me he was very jealous. He drank and ran around. That's why I couldn't understand it. You couldn't understand what, ma'am? Doris, when she moved away from here. Yes, ma'am? She said she was going back with her husband. The landlady, Frances Watson, gave us the address of the furniture store where the murder victim had been employed. And we drove down to check with the personnel manager of Mr. Collins. He said that Doris Frazier had been fired from her job 10 months before. He said she'd been let go because she was constantly late for work and that she got into the habit of asking for salary advances too often. Collins also told us that he'd heard about the trouble between the Frazier woman and her husband. He said he'd seen the husband in the store several times when he came to call for his wife. He identified the husband as Stephen Arnold. The description was approximately the same, a tall, well-dressed man, dark hair, heavy build. The personnel manager gave us the last known address they had on the victim. The following morning we checked it out, an apartment hotel in the East Wilshire area. She was still registered there together with her husband, Stephen Arnold. But the desk clerk told us that Arnold hadn't been living there for the past three months. He had no idea where Arnold had moved. He didn't know where he worked. While the desk clerk stood by, Ben and I went upstairs and checked the apartment. Anything, Joe? No, nothing. Nothing in the bedroom. Like Lee says, she goes in for nice clothes about all I can figure. And what you got there? See it lying on the desk here. Looks like she started a letter and didn't get to finish it. What's it say there? Well, it's dated October 23rd. That's over a week ago. It says, dear George, I've been meaning to write to you before, but that's all that's as far as she got. George, first time we've run into that name on this deal makes more than one man in her life. Yeah, there's a couple of more letters here that are all addressed to her unopened. Let's see. Well, we can go by her the return addresses. Telephone bill, ad from a woman's store, postcard, another ad. Here's something, Santa Monica postmark. Check the name on that return. Yeah, Stephen Arnold. 12.35 p.m., we called the office and checked Stephen Arnold through R&I. He had no criminal record. The return address, which he'd listed on the envelope of the letter to his wife, was 10826 Pacific Front Boulevard. We located it on the beach just below Santa Monica.  No, I haven't seen Doris for a couple months anyway. Why? Understands you have an apartment with your wife in the East Wilson neighborhood. Is that right, Mr. Arnold? Yeah, that's right. Mind telling us why you left? No, I don't mind. I wanted to move closer to my work, that's all. That place is way too far out. Well, how is it that your wife didn't move with you, sir? She wanted to stay close to town. Doesn't care for the beach much. Bad for her sinus, I guess. Well, did you have an argument with your wife, Arnold? Some kind of a disagreement? Is that one of the reasons you moved? Yeah, you might call it that. We're getting a divorce. That's all. Yeah, it was the best thing all the way around. There's nothing to be fighting and scrapping the last year anyway. We decided to call it quits. Excuse me a minute. I gotta put some cold drinks in this cooler here. Yeah, go right ahead. Would either you care for a cold drink? No, no thanks. Coke maybe? Nothing. Did you get the divorce from your wife, Mr. Arnold? Yeah, that's right. I'm divorcing her. Why do you want to know? You remember that last time you saw your wife? The exact date, I mean? No, I don't think I remember that. Been at least three months, I'll say that much.  Yeah, that's right. I get in the town once or twice a month. They sure you were like a coke. No, thanks. I think I'll have one myself if you don't mind. Sure, I got a cold one here. The water sure is cold. How about last Tuesday night? So you happened to be in town that night? Oh, last time was two, three weeks ago anyway. Went in to see a show. I was working here last Tuesday night. Work every night except Monday. It's only night I'm closed up. Is there anyone who can vouch for that? I don't think I get this. Why do you want to know? Well, is there anybody who can vouch for you? Well, sure. Half a dozen people anyway. A fellow runs the place next door, and the guys and the rest of the stalls up and down the way here, they can all vouch for me. I work till 1 a.m., same as usual. Hey, just a minute. Hey, Vic! Vic! Yes, Steve? Can I hop over here for a minute? I don't want to talk to you about it. Yeah, just a minute. Okay, Vic, thanks. He'll be right over. Do you folks want a cup of coffee or anything? No, I wouldn't. I'd like to have a change for that cigarette machine, if you don't mind. Oh, sure. There you are. Oh, thanks. Hi, Steve. Hey, these fellows are the detectives, Vic. Guess about some kind of jam my wife got into. They want to know where I was last Tuesday night. Yeah? They want somebody to vouch for me. Sure. Did you see Mr. Arnold last Tuesday night? I was working next door. Steve was here all night. You are listening to Dragnet, authentic stories of your police force in action. Millions heard it, yet only 52 have written. Starting on Dragnet over two months ago, on September 20th, to be exact, Fatima made a special money-back offer to more than 10 million listeners. The results? Amazing. Millions heard it, yet only 52 have written. If you smoke king-size cigarettes, listen to Fatima's famous offer. Buy a pack of Fatimas. Enjoy their extra mildness and superbly blended tobaccos. If you're not convinced, Fatima is better than the king-size cigarette you're now smoking. Just return the pack and the unsmoked Fatimas before December 1st, and we'll give you your money back plus postage. Fatima, box 37, New York 1. Fatima's latest sales report shows Fatima sales up in every state in America. The month of October, coast to coast, actual figures show Fatima sales up 110% for more than double. Yes, thousands and thousands of Americans are switching to king-size Fatima. So why wait? Switch to Fatima today. Extra mild. Best of all, king-size cigarettes. Saturday, October 31st, 2 p.m. Ben and I checked with a dozen different concession operators in the neighborhood of Stephen Arnold's eating place. They all corroborated the fact that on the night his wife had met her death in a downtown hotel, and had been working at his stand until 1 a.m. Despite all the previous indications that he might have been responsible for the murder of his wife, we had to eliminate him as a possible suspect. 2 p.m. On the way back into town, we stopped by the apartment hotel where Doris Frazier was living at the time of her murder. After checking further with the tenants and with the help in the building, we found out that the victim had been in the habit of eating most of her meals at restaurants in the immediate neighborhood. After some two hours of checking we stopped by the coffee shop four blocks from the apartment building where one of the waitresses identified Doris Frazier's picture. Yeah, that's her officer. Terrible picture, though. She looks so much older. About how often would you say Miss Frazier came in here, ma'am? Well, three or four times a week, I'd say. The bus stops right out there on the corner. She'd usually have breakfast and grab the bus and go to work. Some night's coming home from work. She'd stop in here for dinner. Nice girl, quiet. Did you get to know her at all, Miss? Usually read while she was eating. Woke her magazine. Did she ever come in here with anyone else? Yeah, quite a few times. She seemed to have a boyfriend. Of course she was attractive, small, you know, but real cute looking. Do you happen to know any of these men? No, I'm sorry I don't. Anyone of them in particular, she came in with very often? Let's see. I think there was one blonde, good dresser, kind of tall, good looking. They usually came in together for breakfast. How long ago was this, Miss, do you recall? Well, say up until a couple of weeks ago. I happen to remember. I see. Did you ever happen to hear this man's name? Let me see. George, I think that was it, yeah. Would you happen to know if he lives in the neighborhood? No, sorry I don't. Has this man been in here during the past week, you know? Yes, he has. He came in for breakfast. What day was that? This morning. Before we left the coffee shop, we questioned the cashier who came up with the information that the man known as George usually left his car parked at the service station across the street. We left our car and asked the cashier to call us in case the suspect returned. At the service station, they also remembered the man known as George, but they told us he hadn't been in for the past month. They've done some work on his car for him in the past, so they had a record of his license number. We called our DMV and found that the car was registered to a car, Lucy, in East Hollywood. 4.45 p.m. We drove out and interviewed Lucy at his home, but he came nowhere near the description of the suspect. He told us that he had purchased the car six weeks before from a man known as George Crane. He described Crane as tall, blond, and well-dressed. From the bill of sale, we got Crane's address, a motel on East Manchester. The manager there told us that George Crane had moved a week before. He said that Crane had left no forwarding address, but he did remember where he worked. He was a driller in one of the oil fields down in Long Beach. We checked the oil company's personnel office downtown, but they were closed for the day. 6.18 p.m. we went back to the office and pulled a package on George Crane from R&I. Get anything, Lonnie? Yeah, he's got a record. Here's the package here. Yeah. Nothing very heavy. Drunk charge two years ago, another one last year, disorderly conduct, resisting arrest. That's about all. Let's see. Yeah, the description checks out all the way. You called the night officer of that oil company, did you? Yeah, they couldn't tell us anything. Said call back first thing in the morning. Want to reach you? I got it, yeah. Homicide Friday. Who? How's that? Oh, yeah, sure. Yes, sir. No. No, sir, I'm afraid not. Yeah, thanks anyway. You bet. Yeah. Yeah, goodbye. My life does it. Who was it? That guy who was in here the other day. You remember that Alfred P. Morgan or whatever it was? Oh, what do you want? Wanted to buy us a drink. He's celebrating. Huh? His old friend Maude. He just found her. 8 a.m. the next morning, we checked with the personnel department of the oil company's downtown offices. They told us that George Crane was employed as a driller, that he'd been working for the company for the past five years and that he had a good employment record. They told us he was on the day shift and that he was scheduled to report for work on rig 619 at the Long Beach field at 8 o'clock that morning. Ben and I got in the car, drove down to Long Beach where we located the murder suspect George Crane at work in the field. Doris Frazier? No, I'm sorry, Sergeant. I don't think I know anybody by that name. How about Doris Arnold, Mr. Crane? Would you know anybody by that name? Arnold? No, I'm afraid not. What's it all about? You own a car, do you, sir? Yeah, that's it right over there, that dark sedan. Yeah. Have you had it long? Oh, I've had it a couple of weeks. Last one I had was giving me a lot of trouble. Did you trade it in? No, I sold it for a private party, fell out in Hollywood. You mind taking a look at this picture, Mr. Crane? Yeah. It doesn't look like anybody I know. Why am I supposed to? We think you should, yes, sir. I don't think I'll follow you. Do you spend any time around the East Wilshire District, Crane? East Wilshire, you said? Yeah. No, I've probably been over there a couple of times, not lately, though. How about the coffee shop on the corner of Gramercy and Meringo? You ever been in there? Not that I remember, no. Well, a waitress in that coffee shop in the cashier, too. They said they've got a pretty regular customer. He fits your description exactly. You sure you've never been in there? Well, I'm not positive. I wouldn't swear I never been in the place. What's the difference, anyway? Well, how about that service station across the street from the coffee shop?  They ever do any work on it for you? Oh, say, I bet I know the place you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, I've been there quite a few times. Good station. They've done some good jobs on the car for me. I remember it now. Well, I guess you remember the coffee shop. Crane? Yeah, I think I do now. Right across the street from the station. That it? Yeah, that's right. Well, what do you want to know about it? When's the last time you were in there, Crane? Well, to tell you the truth, I couldn't be sure. Well, we talked to a waitress in there yesterday. She said you were in that morning for breakfast. Do you remember that? She's way off the track on that one. I could tell you that. I wasn't near the place yesterday morning. Well, a cashier remembers you, too. She says you were in. How about it, Crane? Look, what difference does it make? What's this thing all about, anyway? Want to take another look at this picture? Well, I told you once. I don't know the woman. I never saw her before in my life. Why don't you give it some thought? Huh? I said, why don't you give it some thought? You remember East Wilshire. You remember the service station. You finally remember the coffee shop. Maybe you can remember her if you try. I tell you, I don't know her. I never saw her in my... Look, let's go on the shed where we can hear each other, huh? All right. The waitress in the place says you were in there quite a few times with the woman. You usually came in for breakfast. You stopped going there about two weeks ago. I don't know her. What's the matter, Crane? You figure you got something to hide? I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know her. What do you figure she's got to do with me, anyway? We checked her apartment, Mr. We found a letter she was writing to you. You about ready to tell us? What's a letter? That doesn't mean anything. Can't prove anything by the letter. What are you thinking, anyway? We think you're lying, Crane. We think you got a reason for it. What do you say? Doesn't prove anything. Maybe I knew her. That doesn't mean anything at all. We think it does. Yeah?  That the way it looks to you? That's the way it looks. I don't think you can prove it. We're going to try. Now, how about it? Will it go any easier for me in five minutes? That's not up to us. I don't know why I did it. What am I going to give for a reason? I don't know why I killed her. I wouldn't know, Crane. Didn't really have any reason. That sounds funny, doesn't it? No reason at all. I just killed her. What am I going to tell him? If I don't have a reason, how can I ask him to let me off easy? How can I ask him? I don't know, but they'll have an answer. The story you have just heard was true. The names were changed to protect the innocent. On February 8th, the trial was held in Superior Court, Department 92, City and County of Los Angeles, State of California. In a moment, the results of that trial. And now, here is our star, Jack Webb. Thank you. Friends, all of us on Dragnet sincerely hope that all of you enjoyed a happy Thanksgiving. And now, for a moment, we'd like to look ahead, pass along a gift suggestion for the coming holidays. Your neighborhood dealer now has Fatimas and colorful smart Christmas wrappers. You'll find they make a perfect gift. Fatimas' extra mildness and better flavor. Fatima quality is bound to please every king-size cigarette smoker. Remember, this holiday season, give your friends Fatima in the distinctive new Christmas carton. Fatima, best of all, king-size cigarettes. George Martin Crane was tried and convicted in Superior Court of Murder in the first degree. He is now serving a life term in the State Penitentiary. You have just heard Dragnet, a series of authentic cases from official files. Technical advice comes from the Office of Chief of Police W.H. Parker, Los Angeles Police Department. Fatima's cigarettes. Best of all, king-size cigarettes has brought you Dragnet, transcribed from Los Angeles. Next, Counter Spy fights international intrigue. Stay tuned to NBC.