It is the debate time, following on from our long running series of what we've been doing for the last few weeks. This one's going to be a little bit tougher. Let's be honest, we ain't going to be debating very much. There's very little to debate. We're talking about Mike Walker's tenure at Evan and who was his best, most successful signing that cannot be discussed really because none of them were very good. Let me just run through. Now he came in in January 1994. His first game was away at Bolton in the third round of the cup. I was there, being the park. We drew 1-1. We did. Good times, we're going to, good times. We're coming because, like we discussed last week, how Kendall had left because of the Ding on the Moon situation. There was a lot of excitement wasn't it at the time when we were getting Walker. We were going after Walker. Yeah, we'd had that. We'd evidently did up, Adam. We'd Kendall had gone and we'd left him. He'd been going for too long. I mean, we were trying to get Walker, Norwich, trying to keep hold of them and he was the new shiny thing wasn't he? He was. Norwich had finished third in the league. They'd be by Munich in the Olympic Stadium. They were brilliant. They were brilliant to watch. They had exciting. And he was the one, I don't know about you, but he was the one that I wanted. I was like, oh my God, he's exciting if he gets it and playing this kind of football. And because I was Kendall, I put a side in that was okay. It just looked like an addition here and there and it'd be a decent side. And we went after Walker must suit the amazing because something, let's be honest, quite often in our following of everything, we have ideas of what we want them to do and we think, I'll be great if we could go after him. And this was one of those occasions when I was like, I'll be great if we went after my Walker and that's who we went after and then we got him. So the excitement, I think was there because it was this fella that's not had a big budget that had got this Norwich side to finish third in the league. And almost, you know, they were in the championship race. I remember playing them in about March, the Carrow Road, and there was a couple of points between them and you had to beat them three. And I think they destroyed themselves because they destroyed them and Norwich just fell away and I think finished there. But the next season, they were in Europe and they've done well. And so where's this fella who's done, been able to do that with a team like Norwich City? And you're thinking that as, you know, as Everton and the club, the size of Everton and everything, you know, lead champions only six or seven years before he's going to come in and be able to put his stamp on it. It felt, in retrospect, it feels a bit like going after Kuman in a way. It was like, he was like Martin, there's more, though, but yeah, ultimately. But what I mean is it was like we flexed our muscles to go and get, like, this name of people like, you'll never get him. And we were like, yeah, we've got in there, flexed our muscles and got him. And he was the big, the shiny thing. Did he fit in with Everton? Was he a big enough name for Everton? Those things didn't matter. He was the big manager at the time. He was, he was the, you know, it was the big, at the time it wasn't sort of, you didn't, didn't really go after, I suppose, European managers, that hadn't happened yet. He went after good British managers and he was the best one about and we went after them and we got them and. And we'd stepped away. That was, he was the first one, not Everton. That we'd stepped away from. Everyone else, you know, your Joe Royal, but he came after that. But people in front, you know, have a kindle, Colin Harvey, Billy Bingham, people like that. I know Gordon Lee wasn't but for a few years, we'd had the Everton connection before Gordon Lee. We'd had, you know, the Everton connection there as well. So Mike Walker was a step away from that. And I remember thinking at the time, I'm a vehicle thing that nothing to do with Everton. Fresh pair of eyes. Premier League, just started.  Time to get it sorted. Well, when Howard left, obviously we were, we played Southampton, we beat Southampton. We were 11th of 22, by the way. So we were half way. We were mid-table, yeah. Jimmy Gable come in. And if my internet pressure's up a bit. Yeah. Well, we lost six or seven games. Well, we lost the next game. Man City, I remember. I was there. Carl Griffith scored, remember him? Yeah, yeah. Did he ever score? I was there. I was there. That put us down to 13th. The next game we played Sheffield we drew 0-0. That kept us at 13th. Yes. We got beat by Newcastle at home, 2-0, Andy Cole and Peter Beardley. Beardle in the chest. I remember that. They just kept the Newcastle. Just that, just like that. It was easy for them. They scored in the 14th and the 76th minute. That day we were in 4th then. That dropped us to 15th. That was the 18th of December. Then we went and played Sheffield Wednesday home, got beat 2-0. Was that Carl and Palmer scoring with the header? Yeah, definitely. I did a box on Sky on a Monday night. Yeah, that was on the 27th. So that dropped us to 16th. We got beat there. We played Blackburn, I think, next. Was it the next day or two days later? On the 29th. I went to Blackburn. Sheer that. We got beat 2-0, yeah. That kept us at 16th. That was very evident because the Sheffield game, Tony Cotty was in the studio. He didn't play and he had a cast on. He was like, yeah, I'm out for a bit. It was like a week or so. I went to Blackburn two days later. He started. It was all my games. It was the day, 1994, West Hamarow. What happened against West Hamarow? We got beat 1-0. But it was team breaking. Team breaking. The five minutes. Five minutes. That put us to 16th. So it was just a run of grimge. And they never, ever, ever. Chelsea, third of January. Away. Away. I'm thinking we got beat. 2-0. 4-2. Oh, 4-2, yeah. Yeah, because then we beat them 4-2 at home later in the season. 4-2. Cotty and Stupar scored the goals. So there you go. That run put us down to, still in 16th. Chelsea was 17th. They were shocked. We beat them 4-2. And that's when, so all those games, we've dropped. We've gone from 11th in the table to what we were at. 17th under Jimmy Gable. So we were halfway. We were all right under Howard Kendall. He just wanted a bit of ambition. Get us into 4-2, drive us forward. Give us a Jimmy Gable. We just came off.  We're bringing Mike Walker and we play Bolton Wonders in the Epic Cup as we go. We drew 1-1. And then a second game, we play it home against Swindon and win 6-2. Cotty got a hat-tick. Very late. Third goal as well. Let's Angel. Let's Angel, but he's only... Oh, no. He didn't score. No, he didn't score. But Angel started with Cotty. He played, yeah. Cotty got a hat-tick. Cotty got a hat-tick. April, Cotty got a hat-tick. 42, 82, 89. Gary Abbot scored on the 72nd and Peter Baker scored on the 90th. So we scored 4 goals in the last 18 minutes. We were winning 2-0. Yeah. And we haven't ended up, did we? Let them back in at 2-2. I think Paul Bolton scored the 20,000. The goodness. Yeah. So, as I said, it was a weird time. But before we discuss a little bit more, let's get the sirens. OK. I can find them. So, first of March, 1994, he brought Brett Angel in. He'd been on loan for half a million. On the same day, he brought in... About a pound of corn to this, he did. Gary, Robert, 250,000. Yeah. He brought in Joe Parkinson, 250,000. He brought in Anders Limpar for 1.6 million. Big money. Big money. Could have got. Bars, yeah. Could have got a thing go for that. Then double. Then double. He sold Peter Baker for 1.4. So that's where probably most of that money was from. He sold Precky. He sold Pultate. He sold Mark Ward. He brought in Anacachi. He sold Tony Carty. He brought in Vinny Samways. He brought in David Burroughs. So there's not a massive amount of players there that he brought in. Can't really see any of them had an influence in his time. For him. For him. Some of them had an influence, but not for him. I suppose out of... I suppose out of all of those, the ones that had an influence for him would have been Limpar for the Wimbledon game. Yeah. For simply getting the penalty. Yeah. For the Wimbledon. Anyone else, I don't think, then to anything in his about 10 months and 10 years. So... The one I'd go for would be Joe Parkinson. More for what he did after he left. He played a lot more games than... We looked through it. He played a lot more games than I remember him playing. Because it always felt like to me that when... when Joe came in, Joe Royal, that he brought Joe Parke back from the... Because I remember the week before, because when he got sacked, there was a gap in international break, and Joe Parke played in a mini derby at Anfield. And... It always... When you think back, I always thought Joe Parkinson didn't play a lot of games, but he did. We looked at it before he played in most of the games. So... I think he was back out of the team. Yeah. And I think Joe Royal didn't know that much about it. He probably, in that mini derby, probably made him go... Disfelech and do his job, in what he wanted to do. I think it's difficult, isn't it? Because you can look and... If you're just talking about that 10-month time scale, none of those players touched the sides, really. They came in and... Lim Parke was the highest profile out of all of them. He'd been brilliant to that. He'd destroyed us a lot, with Balasie-esque. You know, he'd destroyed us when he played against us. When you got him in, you were like, yeah. And I remember when he came in, being excited, thinking, oh, I've got this exciting win there. I was sad we sold Beagrie, though. Yeah, well, I loved Beagrie, but again, he was another. He was half and half funny. He was the half-bitten. He was very Balasie, Beagrie. If he'd just simplified... When he simplified his game, he was really good. Yeah. But he just couldn't simplify it. He wanted to beat the man three or four times. But Lim Parke came in and I remember him. He just wasn't very good. He didn't really want to beat everybody. Let's be honest. He didn't. Well, I don't think... I don't know whether he didn't want to beat Everton. I don't think he wanted to beat Everton in the situation he was in. That was the issue. We were so good. He had no fighting him, didn't he? No, he was no fighter. He was a ball player, wasn't he? But he was a Mike Walker type player. He was a clever football type player. So when you look at it, you think, well, I'd be buying him when we'd need battlers, but for the manager's ethos, if you like, he was that kind of player. Well, I think... I think if Mike Walker maybe had took over straight after Howard Kendall... I mean, that gap was too big. I mean, it's like this year, that gap is far too big. To go through all those fixtures over Christmas and not to bring a man in. I know Howard Kendall left on his own back, but by losing all those games over Christmas and just putting ourselves in a situation, suddenly confidence is a big issue. And he brought in a manager who may not really have had the skills to do what he needed to do. But maybe if he'd been coming in 11th, he would have had a little bit more time and a little bit... I don't know. I think the team was settled, wasn't it? And the fixtures, you've just read out.  That's the thing. Those games at that time were against teams who were basically all around us and lower than us. And we were doing OK. I mean, if Howard would have had those games, he wouldn't have... I'm quite sure we wouldn't have lost six of the seven. So it was that... But I mean, ultimately, the players played the game. He said this season went for Ronald Coombe and he wasn't doing it. And, you know, David Undreth was into it and even Sam Aladise has had his period where he was performing and you have to look at the players because the players are playing the game at the end of the day. But we just let it bob on too long. And we have this season, basically. And we saw what happened this season in terms of where we ended up. Everyone was worried. It was just that it was very early. Now, we'd have let that go and then that had happened kind of over Christmas, January. I think we'd be writing this year now. So that's what happened then. And it was rudderless for a few weeks and what rudderless becomes the players become a little bit like, you know, what's going on here and then. I just don't think you can ever give games away in the Premier League. And I felt like we've done that this season as well. We've kind of just gone. We were kind of going. It doesn't matter. We'll get there and we'll sort that. And that's what it was like at that time. And it was only as we were going through the second half of the season that you kind of started looking, going, you know, in December, when we were getting beat every couple of days, but we were going over after this manager and you're passing them games off.  It looked like, I mean, we basically sleepwalked our way into relegation into the relegation zone. I mean, we only dropped into it with a week to go. Got me three little leads. And I was at that match. It was just very much like, once they scored their first goal, the fight went out of all our players and we didn't know what to do. A lot of mirrors of this year. Yeah, yeah. There was a period. It was a weird one because I think it was a weird collection of players as well. It was. No one really fit. They didn't really fit together. And there's a lot of kids and there's a lot of senior players and nothing really fit. And players come from like, maybe lower league teams. And no one really fit together. And I was just saying, buying something like Limpare, who was almost, well he was. He was a luxury player. The luxury player when we didn't have a right to have any luxury players. And they sent us forward to score that many goals. And yet all these players under different managers or a different manager pulled together and ended up being a decent team.   It was always hard to put your finger on what was going wrong. And I remember, you know, before he got sacked, it was like a run of three decent fixtures where we'd drawn a couple in one and you were thinking maybe the corner was turning, but that's when he was sacked. But since then, obviously, you were ex-players, Neville Salford was the best one if you want to listen to him. He just says, he was never there. Yeah, he was in the trains, really. In the police years, and he'd just be there in the middle of the train, I think, with his trunks on. Trunks on by them. Yeah. Well, other people were doing the stuff. And the scene of the thing where Mike Walker does an interview with him, I think it was probably on the evidence. Yeah. He said he should have been on the train and climbed a bit more. Should have. Yeah. We never recovered from it, did he? Never recovered from it. Listen, we got to the Wimbledon game.  What are your memories of that day? I've told you this before, I wasn't there, I wasn't there. I was playing. This is my memories of the day I was playing. And the memories of that day.  You were playing for St. Helens? Yeah. And the game got called off a ten to three. And... I run off, got changed, I was getting a lift home, and I was in a car with four coffee and me.  And I walked home crying. Was there no... Were you not... Did you not have any, like, thing to get to? To just be there? No. Just in case? No, because... I just wanted to focus on playing. No, I mean, when you were coming back... Oh, when I come back, sorry? Was there no, like... Was there no, like... To just get on? No.  No.  You could have gone in the park, hadn't you? Of course I'd gone to the park.  You wouldn't let you in?  You knew everybody, they'd have just let you in.  No.  There was no mobile phones, obviously, and none of that. And I got... You were dealing with whispers and rumors?  And I was just thinking, we'd been delegated. That's what I was thinking.  I'd seen nothing. So two on down, two nil down, walking home thinking, the team's got no fighting in it. So the last thing we could do with was going behind, to go two nil down to the team who were in sixth place. And had you been promised a trip to Vegas? Had you been promised a trip to Vegas? We'd been bent the coach, or someone had bent the coach out. Someone had bent the coach out. Or an electrical fault than I'd before in the coach. You know and all that. But by the time I got home, I'd get in and put the radio on. It's 2-1 and the whistle goes for half time.  And to listen to the second half on the radio.  But obviously Barion, when Barion scored, it's like, we can do this. There's twenty-odd minutes, I think Sheffield, you know, getting beat up in Chelsea or whatever it was.   We have twelve minutes to go.  I think they might have had one chance, they might have had one chance, but Peter fear always comes into my mind. But that might have just been two things that were put together on the day. I remember that, I remember that day, I remember that, I remember all week being like, the build-up to it. I remember going into town with my mate, and my mate bought one of those horns, like proper like A-horns, but the dickhead took it into school the next day and had to take it off him, because he's gone and skated. And that was supposed to be for the match. And I think we left that house, I think we were having some work done on that house, at the time, I think they were doing the loft extension or something like that. There was always work going on my mum, there was always work going on that house. And I remember Lee, we left, we left about half 10, 11 o'clock, because we just knew though, we just knew everyone was going to go and it wasn't like, there wasn't tickets in them days, it wasn't, obviously. And we were going down to get the bus, I think it was like the 61 from the Vale, or something like that. So we've got, so we had flags and all kind of that. I just remember all the way, he's just laughing at us, just laughing at us, just buzzing like anything. Fucking, like, it was getting to style.  So it's like, but got up to goodness, and I just remember being going down, glad I see this, and it just being full of people. And the gates hadn't even opened yet, just getting into a queue.  Got in, no seats anywhere. I stood the whole game behind one of the stairs, the whole game. Glad to see it was way over, way over, way over, it was absolutely chocky.   It wasn't that, it was just an air of, is this real? Because it was just so, it's the biggest game, and yet, you're just, you're old, just felt a bit, and that bad back of that one happened, and then obviously we went down the other end, and then Pa falls over, gets us the pen, Stuart puts it away, calm, cool, collected, and then remember coming out, second half, and the play, just had a really good goal, and there was an air that it was coming, the second goal was going to come, and then, obviously, bad at your own, and smashes on it, but the weird thing about it was, like you just said, about rumours and stuff, everyone thought we were safe, at 2-2, everyone was like, a goal, which of getting beaten, everyone thought we were safe, so getting the third was almost like, well, that's it, even if these equalised, we'll be alright, but it wasn't, we had to win, but nobody knew that, and I think maybe that's what took the anguish away, if people had known, that would have created, that anxiety, if we'd been at 2-2, everyone was like, oh, yeah, party time, but maybe if people hadn't known, that would have made people more nervous, and going 3-2 up, people just like, yeah, even if we can see, this is sad, we're alright, but we win, so it was that misinformation that might have just helped us on the day, but could you imagine if it had gone 2-2, finished the 2-2, and walking out, and everyone would be like, ah, and then going, no, you should have gone. That would have been right, it's absolute carnage, but it didn't happen, and I always remember as well, the referee was the Welsh fella, Keith Cooper, and he was well onto what was going on, like, he knew, and I just remember, like, we had the ball on the right, and it was like the last minute, and you had that everyone was whistling, and Keith Cooper kept on going to the floor of his mouth, he kept on pulling like that, and then he looked at the glass seats, like, he knew exactly what he knew, like, he was going to blow up, but he was going, and everyone was like, like properly mental, and then obviously, the seat blows up, and everyone goes berserk, but I just remember seeing everyone, everyone was on the pitch, and I must have just been in the state of, like, euphoria or menace, and apart, the camera went on me in the gladness seat, and went on like, like, grandstand, it's over together some part, where everyone has survived, and apparently the camera was just fixed on me for like a minute, while a fella read out, like, what had happened, and there was like panning out and back on me, and I was just like that, like, not going mental, I was just like, I don't know whether I was exhausted by it, or I was just like, and then I ended up getting onto the pitch and stuff, because everyone went on the pitch, like, yeah, and it was just a mental day, and then from then I thought, I think everyone was like, well, you know what? He'll go away, and he'll make his signings now, and we'll be alright, and obviously we went and got finished some ways. I think at the time, everyone was quite excited about it. He was a good player. He was a good player, he just didn't really, he wasn't consistent for us at all. He was skillful footballer, but he was, I don't know, he was just too, he seemed too weak, like, on the ball, you know, or maybe we just went a strong enough team to have him in it. Again, though, it's not what I mean. Is that symptomatic of buying what we didn't need? Well, I think he wanted ballplayers, didn't he? He wanted exciting ballplayers, so I don't know, it's hard, isn't it? I suppose as a manager, you've got an idea in your mind what you want. And then, obviously, it was the World Cup, the World Cup 94. Now, there's no England there. There's only Ireland there from the home nations.  I loved it. I thought it was a brilliant World Cup, but I think what, I think because... Just wasn't as good as England. But because England were there, I think that opened the eyes of a lot of people to football from other countries. And the countries like Sweden and like Nigeria and just like... I think it just Bulgaria. I think it opened the door for people going, there's no England, so I'm going to have to watch this game. I'm going to have to watch that game. And then that suddenly opened the door for players that people had made of. And suddenly the Premier League was like, well, the big stars of this World Cup are all these players who don't play for England because they had to be because there was no England team there. And I think those people, and that's so obviously to TV companies, BBC and ITV, they've got to try to sell a game. So you're selling a game by talking about players who are foreigners. I think that opened the door to those players coming to our country because they were... Everyone, you knew who Martin Darlin was. You wouldn't know who he was now.  Suddenly these players were on the lips of everyone because they were like, that's all you're at. You didn't have all these other players. You didn't have your English players. You had all these players. It's hard to get, darling. Yeah. But this is what point it was going to come on to. So I think that summit, the Premier League clubs with a little bit more money were like... These are the big ticker players. These are the players coming off the back of the World Cup. These are the players who are going to get bums on seats. So everyone was trying to buy somebody. So, first of all, we wanted... So Peter Johnson had just come in and as well as me. So it was like... So we've got the new park end. That was built. And it was like, who can we get? Who can be our player? So we decided to get Jadon Clinton, didn't we? We were like, I'm never playing in the Premier League. Next week he's signing us bears. We tried to get Martin Darlin. And it was like, nope, he ended up going to Blackbird. And it was like taking a list off, wasn't it? Of like... He went to Blackbird and they didn't go that way. No, he went... He went... He went in the summit or did he? I think he went in an odd time. But it was literally like going down the list, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. And I just remember, I remember walking past the news agent again. So we've talked about many ways how you used to get your news or, you know, but it was in the echo thing. In the billboard. In the billboard, outside the shop, Everton linked with Whale Cup star. And then you're like, who is he? And it was Daniel Amacatch. And you're like, what the fuck's Daniel Amacatch? And you're like, he's going to Whale Cups. And you're like, going back, oh yeah, he scored that goal and he did that celebration. Because Nigeria obviously was scoring. They were boss. And they did a boss celebration. And again, it was like everyone was woke up to another team. And I was like, oh yeah, playing the Whale Cups, it must be a good player. So obviously we went after him. Got him. Sam Ways, Cotty went out with a Swapford. David Burroughs. Don't really know why that happened, but it did. And I suppose we were going into that next season with a little bit. I don't know why. Because we finished the season just staying up. We hadn't really bought anything we needed. And we were like, we're going to be boss this season.  Peter Johnson was like, we'll never let that happen again. That's never happened. And I remember just Evertonings being like, that'll never happen again. We came so close to losing. All people forgot. It was like, we forgot. The attendance was like 20,000. And everyone was like, you know what, we all forgot. We all forgot what's boss about supporting Everton. That's our wake up. And I think that's what drove into that next season. I remember going to the first game of the season and everyone was like, we were bouncing. The game was bouncing. And we do too, too. Didn't we? And there was an optimism. An optimism. But you just had an optimism. But it was weird because the results just didn't... Mulla was that September, wasn't it? Yeah, I think so, yeah. We had them in with the all red jacarone. So they'll give you 20 grand a week and you thought it was tax-free. Tax-free? No, not tax-free. And when he, it wasn't tax-free. It wasn't tax-free. Because he obviously got a few goals from Brazil in the World Cup. You've got to have a cat in Mulla in the front. If the tax, they are tax-man. We could have got a tax-clad on. Yeah. Yeah, and we just, we started the season and it didn't start very well at all. They didn't... In the first few games you were like, well, through the fill we were all right and we lost that game. We were okay. And we lost a few and you're like, got beat by space, start winning it. Yeah. Because we didn't? We're just not winning any games and the players, you know, and my cat, he scored. Davey, home Davey, yeah. Blackburn, he got battered, he didn't do anything. We come home and we drew the QPR and he scored. You know, we drew 2-2 and there was like that, he's up and running now and he didn't score another goal for Mike Roche. I didn't know. You know, right, we got into that little, we got a little room, we drew with Arsenal and then we beat West Ham. It was a night game. It was unbelievable, wasn't it? And then we obviously went to Norwich and drew 0-0.  Because we were battered, we were like, at the bottom. But you're thinking, yeah, it's starting to, we're starting to do what he wants us to do now and then he's sacked him. Yeah. And I remember it is, you know, it was starting to say and I felt and we've done this. It was the standard, the League Cup and it was two-legged then. Porter beat us in 3-2 and then we drew. We just drove with them on. We got beat 1-0 away. 3-1, man. Yeah. But we broke. Duncan Fakes and come in on loan with the endurance. Which was a weird one because it was like, this was, I mean, this is another weird story. So when we doing the challenge, we go to say, Duncan was his most. Again, yeah. That's a power. We only had us four games, didn't we? But I remember this was a weird story as well but what had happened with this was, Peter Johnson had gone up to Rangers to talk to David Murray and Rangers were obviously a massive club then.  You're like, basically going up there to have a little look to see how they did things. How they did it, yeah. And, came back. Yeah, basically, they got talking and they were like, oh, we need this and need that. And they were like, do you? Because we've got a couple of players there that are not playing once coming back from an injury and Duncan Ferguson just needs to get out of Scotland. Because obviously he was on, he was, they were looking about, jailing them, they were looking for banning them for 12 games.  He was just like, yeah, you know, taking these two with, back with, yeah. And that's basically what happened. They were like, they were like, well, we've got room in the car, yeah. And it's like them now. Yeah.  And that's how it happened, basically. It was just like, just like, he wouldn't go, Mike Walker, maybe Walker, because he, Muller turned up like a red, maybe Walker was like, when you shine and you say, well, orange or a red jacket, just a show. And it was just like that. It was like the green jacket on the master's. There was no thing about signing players. It was like a purely marketing thing to learn how to basically make money, which is weird, because they didn't learn that. No. And they were like, yeah, I've got you sent to me feel that, and we've got, yeah. And do you know, do you know, I was supposed to come, it was supposed to be a loan to buy. To buy. And Fakeson was just a loan. It was never, ever going to be, never going to sign for us. They didn't want, that was made clear. And Fakeson was like, I don't even want to go there. No. Where is he? And it was made very clear that he wasn't, he wasn't, he was signing for a month. And that was it. And, and the way it didn't work, Gerant, I thought Gerant was really good for us. He was. I think it was his knee. I think the knee was the problem. He was, he was very good. He didn't train as much as he wanted, but he was a good, good player.  And like you said, we were, we needed players. So, you know, we come down and might walk a gift on some games and, you know, dunking was, he got a bang on his foot in that post, on the game. I remember it, I've only been there centre-ars for the foot. We had a bruise on the top of his foot. So, he wasn't in a full pelt for the first couple of games or for a walk. I, I just remember there was a picture of him, he got booked in the port of game and the rest got the book and like that and it's like, literally on the same level as his head and, and I just remember saying, but, but I remember when he signed for reins, we were like, we were kind of, kind of tried to buy him and he was like, done the United, he'd gone and watched them a few times and we had a bid him for and he wanted to go to reins and it was like, you know, I've just missed out on this play. Because it, for weeks it'd been, he's going to join Everton, he's going to join Everton and he went to the Rangers and you were like, Leeds were after him as well and it was, yeah, and then he was like, no, I want to play for Rangers and it's weird how things turn around, isn't it? But, but it was like, I think the weird thing was, it was, it was just that, he found, I don't know, he obviously just found a hole and everything basically. Well, I think obviously it didn't go great and he decided to sack him and obviously Joe came in and, Joe was, you know what Joe was like? No, no, but he just, what I mean is Joe Royal is, he gives you that when you're sitting so I think you can understand why players want to play for him because he's that kind of fella and obviously he could identify with Duncan because he was a big number nine for Everton and, but what was weird was, the people in the city took them, listen, it's like, it's like Glasgow, isn't it, Liverpool and we love our footy and people took them under his wing. But I think the difference, I think the difference, the difference was was that when he was at Rangers, there was a lot of pressure on him to do well and when he came in, there wasn't that necessary pressure, he didn't want to be here, did he? But, but yeah, it was, it was just, it was weird how many, like again, last week about how many players Kendall had that play under the 95, you know, he was playing regularly with like nine of those, that nine of that team but for whatever reason he couldn't make it work and again, that sometimes shows you what a difference of a manager can do. I think we played some nice footy under Mike Walker but it was very matty, not as, not as, he wasn't as obsessed as Martin, as was with passing it down on the back and all that, but we did play some nice footy but we were just too soft. Like, and even before when you were talking about the game and got B3 in a layer and we got B4 too. You just listen to the goals that we were, we were shaping in and you know, you can see the goal and collapse just very much like we were saying at the start of this, in this season currently, one goes in followed by two and three and that's what it was like then. You mentioned the West Ham game, though, that was a massive turning point for that team because listen, we know, we know what happened with the Derby and the three games on a bounce when Joe Royal came in but, you know, you mentioned that we were three on beating so we had a really long, we had a decent run and you can see, we'd gone from letting goal in at the goal to having one goal in three games before, you know, that was just what he finished with. But that West Ham game, that was huge, I remember that game, it was a horrible game, I just, but I remember, you know, Gary Abbott scored but I just remember the last few minutes, they were just banging on the door and didn't we watch it on a Retro and it was like one was cleared off the line in the last minute and they blocked one on the line. It was incredible and I think that game was absolutely amazing because everybody knew that was the night that we had to win a game.  November, wasn't it? I think it was late October, wasn't it? Late October, right? It was late October or middle of October.  Already. You know, and the atmosphere for that game and as we spoke about before, fans, you know, suddenly realising staying with the team. You know, yeah, being with the team.   Let's not lose what we have got. I think that was unbelievable.   And the people were hugging each other and it was like, just gone cold, remembering it. That thing because it was that important. The players were hugging each other. The game, they just bumped out for a drawing or a corner and players were hugging each other because they knew. You've rightly knew that we had not a two-way and then they're breaking and Liverpool are only with top or second. And it was like, this is the night. If we don't do it tonight, we'll never do it. And, you know, we haven't gone and won the game. It was a mentality thing as well. It was about the confidence, wasn't it, to go, we can dig in all of a sudden because we haven't been able to.  I can't help you because if I go there and they score it, it'll be on me and players are, and that changed that. And there's a lot of parallels between both players that weren't necessarily needed for what we were doing. For what we were doing.  I don't care. Why am I here? Why am I playing with you?     Yeah, I'm a cat you'd come in from, it was just like, why?   Where, who fosters that team spirit? Mike Walker, I would say, is the godfather of pads. Yeah, yeah, most definitely. You know, Mike Walker, this generation now would be that man you would find at a club surrounded by four bids with a boss, he's got a, he'd have a boss tan. He'd probably be on the air with his son Ian. Yeah. You know, trying to get, trying to get with one of Ian's Mrs's mates, yeah. Cat mates, you know. Yeah, probably was then. That's what he was like. He was like, I'm the editor manager and, oh, don't worry about the, actually a bit about being the manager, or the status of it. Or the status of it. And that was the thing he'd come across anyway, didn't he?  Honestly, I wanted, I wanted to believe in him. He'd done well and we'd just started getting a few results and I was thinking, well, maybe now we're going to kick on, because, and, you know, it was like, now he's out, he's gone. And you're like, why have you done that? He's got a strong leadership by Johnson to go, this isn't working. This is not working. Yeah. It doesn't matter. But don't, don't you think that may be a few of those senior plays? Listen. I've knocked on the door. Of course, yeah. And he wasn't, the thing, don't forget I, I started working at everything later in that year. And, Peter Johnson, I know, a lot of people will hate him and all that. I'm fair enough, you know, he had some good ideas for everything. He really did. He just, things just didn't quite pan out for him the way, the way he hoped. Didn't it? Did you chase people? Don't know what I'm saying. Well, exactly different things happen that kind of thing. Pulled money away from him. Pulled money away from what he wanted. Bad investments. He wanted, he wanted to do.  You know, like the, the blue one, he wanted that as it is. He wanted the wins, low enough, I think, going across into the main stand. He wanted to make that an evident thing. He wanted the, I don't know what happened with the park end, because it was originally supposed to be two-tier. He wanted to take out the bullens and make that one level going back. So it wouldn't have been three different stand. It wouldn't have been the paddock going straight into the back of the lower bullens, all in one with the plastics. He said, these were all his ideas at that time. He looked at redeveloping Goddison. Now, he didn't have the money to do all that, but he was looking at ways to get it in, as well as trying to finish the team. What he needed was us to be a better team, really, to be able to get that momentum going, and like you just said, some really bad investment. I don't think he surrounded himself with good people. He needed a, he needed a, a good chief executive at the time.  Are unbelievable.  Nigel Martin, ever won a sign from Crystal Palace. He's on his way to Everton first, he was a brilliant goalkeeper. He wanted to come here. He wanted to come here. He's on his way, and he goes over to Goddison, and they're like, there's no, there's no one here, Nigel. And this is the time before agents and all that. Everything's done face-to-face. Oh, he's not, he's not here. You'll have to go over to his offices on the widow, Park Campus. Okay, yeah. So being the nice man he is, Nigel Martin, he's like, yes, no problem. So he goes over, Peter Johnson's not there. He always wants me to, Cliff Finch. And Cliff Finch is like, oh, there's no one here today to deal with this. But what, what else have you got on? Well, Leeds is here. Well, tell you what, go and speak to Leeds. Now, Leeds told them about Leeds. Leeds wanted to speak to him. Just Leeds wanted to speak to him, so...  So he goes to Leeds. What's the first thing Leeds do? Bring a couple of kids out for his kids and say, no matter what happens, they take them on us. They're for your kids.  Yeah, they were all over him. They were like, they probably couldn't believe the look that Evan had turned him away because there was nobody. There was no... There was somebody. There was nobody there. No one... Well, it only needed the answer at that time. He was the main man, and he'd set up the thing, and he wasn't there to do it.  He should have been able to say to Nigel Martin, right, this is what we want out of here. This is what you want. Yeah, that's fine. Right, we'll get all this sorted.  I'll take you out for a meal. Could have bought... I'd have took the fucker out. I'd have took him out for a meal. This is how football clubs were running the 90s. Well, this is how... I thought it was running the 90s. That was him. And then Mark Swater came.  Mark Swater came. Johnson not there. Cliff Finch. Right, we want you to sign. Swater's like, okay, what do you... This is what I want. And Cliff Finch was like, listen mate, you should be wanting to crawl over broken bottles to play for Evan Football Club. And Swater went, Middlesbrough want me.  And went, no disrespect to Evan. I'm from Australia. I'm a footballer. And you're not exactly winning titles. These want me, and these in the Premier League, and they've offered me that. And you're telling me that I should not have that. I should just sign for you. But that's... That's unfortunate in the way... And so, we had... Paul Gerrard, Steve Simmons, and all of that. We spent more money on them. Of course we did. And we did, if we... And that comes down... Again, that just comes down to poor administration, not having the right people in the right place, not even forward thinking. This is three years after Man United. That fucking... What's his name, running the show? What's his name? Oh, Michael Knight. No, no, Michael Knight. No, before the fellow, before David Gill. What's his name? Edward. Edward's, yeah. That's Edward's one in the show. That's not David Dean. You know, the proper football man. We had nobody in this... That's why... What I'm saying is that there was a man there, and I'm not saying he's great, and he would have been amazing. But he had some good ideas, and he had some money when we didn't have any. And so, we could have moved forward with the right thing. And we didn't, unfortunately. What's his name? And now we've got his name. Who's the guy we got from... Dabi? Michael Dunford. Dunford. No, but the thing about Michael Dunford though, the thing about Michael Dunford was he was a good football man. He had people side with him, who wouldn't let him do the stuff that he should have been able to do. Again, a lot of parallels now. Yeah, yeah. But at the end of the day, I mean, this is that again, one of the people who goes under the radar of the whole kind of layer is Jim Greenwood. Yeah. Jim Greenwood. Club secretary. He did everything though. Did everything. He did everything.  Now, Jim Greenwood is the same. Jim Greenwood, Jim Greenwood run everything. And he was the buffer between Carter and Kendall. He did everything. And sometimes you need a team of, like, you'd need all the parts for it to work. But what was mad was, when I went back to work there, there was about three people involved in that process. And now there's about 43 people involved in that process. Not necessarily that process, because it's all broken up now. Obviously, David Harrison does all the football side and everything like that. But then there's other people getting in the way of other stuff. It's just everything. When you just think and you go, it's almost like you go... I think we said this on the last week's one, but you bounce through season to season and you talk to each other and you go, I'll be great, won't I? And we'll text each other and go, for fuck's sake, where's she at? Oh, whatever. And you bounce along every year.   Well, they do, they get them sorted. Why do they want stuff? Because they don't allow it. They don't allow it. The administration side. Under Peter Johnson. And this is later on, but I've just mentioned it. Tell me not to throw this pen. No, no, no. If anyone, we used to just laugh about this all the time, DJ Spuddles, right? So DJ Spuddles was a brand of potato, oven potatoes, so think of like alphabites. So they had this genius idea that they were going to launch these DJ Spuddles and that's what kids were going to have for the tea every night. DJ Spuddles and beans or DJ Spuddles and this was there. I have no idea. Why not? DJ Spuddles, Peter Johnson. DJ Spuddles was going to be the big thing and they were going to be on every plate.  But because his businesses were so linked and because he wasn't a rich man, he didn't necessarily have to be a rich man, but that's when you were starting to play in rich. That's when football was becoming its own business and that's where Man United was. You're absolutely right. But what was mad was just before you carry on, it didn't take much to be able to go bing bing and he had the money to be able to do that. But what I was going to say was though, but Man United were like... They were prepared. They were a separate... What I'm saying is though, the people who owned Man United, obviously they were public then.  They were their own entity. They created their own money. Where's football clubs then? Where still the local businessman done well. But it was all related. So if you took a hit on your business, your football club was going to take a hit and that's what everything was still very much like then. They weren't even thinking about... The shop didn't come to like 95. We still had the pokey little shop and all these things and kid deals and all that. So if you took a hit on a business that you owned, then the club...    Where did he play? Nobody knows. DJ Campbell. From the other year. Yeah. So DJ Spuddles, so... DJ Spuddles. This is why education... They were fucking... They should have gone for nuggets. That was the big thing. Chicken nuggets were coming in and he was still on potatoes.  Who was taking on alphabites? Do you know what I mean? Or alphabites, whatever they were called. Who was taking on then?  What were you spell... What was DJ Spuddles? They were like little smiley faces. Like little smiley faces. Give a smiley face. Why don't you just call them smiley faces? I think that was already out. Are you sure? Yeah.  Spuddles. Whatever. We basically rimmed the Johnsonair, the NBA DJ Spuddles and Clifford Finch. Send them boss players to other clubs.   Go and see Leeds. I mean, you all signed for them. Leeds have got nothing that we haven't. I've had them a lot of money. And a big massive fish tank in the car park. Paying £53 a week for the fish food. £52? We were paying about £19,000 a week for a giant fish tank with green, white and blue fish. Remember the fish food was £52? Oh no. Remember when they did the thing and it was like, how did this happen?  Or Barbie? Barbie was the best. Seth Johnson. Seth Johnson, they paid £9 million for them and just went, Seth Johnson just walked in and they went, is your contact new? He told to be signing a contact for three grand a week to give him like 20 grand. And they were like, he was like, yeah, sign that. Even his agent said they'd be driving there. And he wanted nine grand a week. He said, well, that's for nine. He'll probably get seven. And when he got in, Redsdale come up and said, listen, I haven't got any time. I know you were like, you went to listen. There's the contract, 32 grand a week. Just on events. When the administrators come in afterwards and they were like, no, like obviously administrators go in, they were like, you've got to find where to cut money. And he was like, find where to cut money? I can find money everywhere to cut it. It was like the fish food, the fish tank, the club cars, everything was just like mental money. And it was all put on the back of the stadium that hadn't been built. It was like, it was amazing. It was absolutely amazing. But that's a different story for a different day.  It was going so well. I think I'm allowed to say that. I think I'm allowed to throw one and he was a red as well. DJ spuddles, he was a red. He was a massive red. So that's the walker in a nutshell. And that's a sight. Wasn't a very good idea. None of the signings you can really debate about because none of them did anything. I mean, I'll say, you've set your park and some probably the best. I mean, I'd have amiccati. I've made up the signed angel amiccati. I love the angel amiccati. And he wasn't great. Don't get me on. But he scored some key goals first. That was what was good. But also, like you said, Duncan Ferguson went on and we all love him. So within it, there was a few good players that he got. But yeah, half and he's blind in one eye. We had him on loan in one eye. We had him on loan and we still bought him. Think about that. We had him on loan from like, he was mad, he was up front for self-image. They scored like 30 goals. They did. He absolutely tore it apart because we were linked with him a few times before we got him and we got him and he was just not fit. He just wasn't up to the Premier League, one of those. I remember I was young. I just wanted any shining. But I remember like seeing him in a game and I remember that he was playing up front but he ran all the way back to defence to help them out and I was just like amazed by it. I've got to shine just for that. I was like... To be fair to him, he gave everything he had. He just wasn't fit. And his only goal against Chelsea, he nearly missed. What's happening? He nearly missed it. Watch it again. He nearly missed it. Incredible. Incredible, Brett. Incredible days. Incredible. They almost go great. It's incredible. I don't know what though. It was an incredible time to be like, I know. Because football was so different in terms of... Like we just touched on about the World Cup. I think that World Cup was such a big thing. I know a lot of people think the World Cup in 1990 was like the first modern World Cup because of TV. But I think in 94, the fact England wasn't there, just opened your eye. It was dead-bright as well. Remember all the kids? All the Adidas kids. I think the reason I had them like that World Cup was... The fan was shite. Yeah, it was. Terrible, nil-nil. But the rest of them were real good. But I just remember it though. The reason... The fact that it was such... It was in America. So it was dead warm. It was dead bright. It was old. It was old enough. Old enough. Oh, I got for you carry on. Did you see that clip of him coming on for the legend? Yeah. He'll be deaf from West Abbey. He'll be fuming.  To go to the game. To go to that game. Oh, my God. Anyway... Volts FC. Yeah. Anyway, yeah. But I did that World Cup. I think the fact that it was in America and it was so bright and Diana Ross missed the penalty was just amazing. And I think the kids... Like loads of the kids, loads of the Adidas kids are getting thingy old this year, aren't they? In the World Cup. Like loads of them with the three stripes and all that. I'm sweet. Remember Sweden? Like bright yellow and bright blue. And everything was like...  And as I said, you had Bulgaria. You had Sweden. You had Nigeria. Stoics class. Yeah, Stoics class. You had all these teams that you wouldn't have watched at any other time suddenly in your face because, well, there is no England. There is no Scotland. There's never Wales. OK, Ireland's day. But for the first time, don't forget for the first... Don't forget World Cup 90, Scotland. Ireland and England were there. 86, Northern Ireland were there. England were there. Scotland were there. 82, Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland, Scotland, England were there. So this was the first... This wasn't just like... It's just England. This was the first one. None of them had been there. Only the Republic of Ireland. So... And I played a game at the floor of the city, but in the day, no wonder Aldo was kicking off. It was about 110 degrees or something. It was. Remember, they showed the thing on the side. And it was like, you wouldn't let them bring them water. Water breaking. Water, no. And it was in America, so it was all the stuff it said anyway. It stopped then. But that just... Can't fly in as well. Yeah. But that, as I said, that just... That World Cup... Just opened the door. And we, in this country, they were waiting for the next thing. It was like going down a list, going... Right, who we got? Who we got? Well, there's Charles Brolin, there's Darlan, there's... You know, Stoichkoff, there's Lech... What was his name? Lechkoff. Lechkoff. There was all these players that you... That boss World Cup... It was a brilliant Advait, 94, for never buying a player. Full Muller, didn't he? He tried to get a Muller. He scored against the Republic of Ireland. But it was a brilliant... It was probably the best World Cup ever for not buying a player based on his World Cup performances. But it was just like tick, tick, tick, tick. And everyone, nearly everyone in the Premier League bought someone from that World Cup. He was like, yeah, he was great, he was great, he was great. It was mad, mad, mad. That happened again, you know, too, didn't it? It did. It was a full-birth, a lad's, your chief, and... Sally Jowell. It was a brilliant World Cup. You write out the final, let it down. But I think that stops when you're mad, when you think Battebub, when you think you're Brazil, with Neymarie, on Babito. Do you know who was amazing, innit? And it's so sad. Bajo was unbelievable. Bajo, one of our four games on his own. And it's just, but the defining images of him missing the penalty. But that was his World Cup. You go back and watch the highlight of that World Cup. That was his World Cup. And it's only because he misses the pen. It's ribbing. He was gone by the World Cup. But the semi and the quarter, he won on his own. The goals he scored were unbelievable. It was a little bit like, it's like going back to the last World Cup, right? Messi was unbelievable. But because they didn't win it, and he didn't have a very good final cut. People don't talk about it. He was unbelievable. He was amazing. He was amazing. He won games on his own. But people, you forget about it because he didn't have a good final. He didn't win it. And it's amazing the way that can happen. That halftime. People talk about it. It was like the Euro, it was gone Ronaldo, won it for Portugal, and all that. And then you think, we went off after 10 minutes of the final, and it was that fella that, the shifish ones, he actually won the game. Won it for them, but he did have a good thing about it. He did. It's the World Cup. It's weird. Just that final, that final would have been like a three-two.  That was brilliant. Had it gone, it didn't score in the final 86? No. No, no, but he was absolutely amazing. And it would always be his well cut, but he didn't score in the final. Yeah. Because he won three-two. He won three-two. That's why you remember, and you go, oh my God. 98. It was amazing. So Dan wasn't actually doing that well. And then he got sent off. 98 was Ronaldo's. Was Ronaldo's? Ah, no. It was amazing in any other season. In any other season. And somehow managed to play in the final. And he was like, well, nice made the play. He was on the pitch. He was on the pitch. He ghosted him. He did, totally ghosted him. There you go. Have we gone to the bell? This is the world of our shows, though. We can just start talking about something and end up talking about something completely different. Let us know your thoughts in the comments on the Mike Walker era. The next one's going to be... We've just done it now. We're on Mike Walker. Well, this is why we're so... We've done nearly as long as he was ever. Man, it's a quote just on his evidence. Amazing. This is why these shows are so good. I don't mind saying that myself. These shows are so good because of our combined knowledge of absolute nonsense. DJs, people will be looking for DJs' product. And probably won't find any reference to... Any reference of it anywhere. Johnson Bainter. In Bainter. Let us know your thoughts in the comments. Do you agree on... Amacachi? I'm over Amacachi. Joe Parkey. Remember that? That's Johnson. He was always involved in that. He was a character of Bruxelles? Yeah, because what she was. Hang on, hang on. What she was. She was the thing so he could own both clubs. Oh, yeah. That's what he was. Don't forget he was supposed to sell to Sammy. And he never sold it. He never sold it. He never sold it. He just went back. He put the shares in A&E. That's what he did. Brilliant. He was a genius. Evil. Why did it not work? Thanks for watching. We'll see you later.


No, that sounds like the old Batman Adam West intro. It kinda does, huh? It does. Look who we brought. We brought the Italy project to you guys today for the bingo. I'm so excited about Italy. I'm so excited. I was talking to the guys beforehand, Frank and Chris, with the Italy project. And the whole reason I did Ancestry DNA was because I was convinced I was Italian. Everybody around us always said, how much Italian do you have? Who's your Italian relatives? Where do you come from, mentally? I have 0.5% and even that's probably a blip. So not Italian, but I still love the culture. I still love everything about it. I will even date myself, because this is kind of an interesting week for me and with Italian culture. Back in the day before cable, when you actually had to get up from the couch and turn your TV to change the channel, we had one channel that was a black and white channel or showed old movies. And that's where my love of Italy started from the old movies. And someone who passed away just a couple of days ago, Miss Gino Lolo Gibrugina and Mrs. Campbell. I don't know if anybody remembers that old movie, but the movie's quirky. Forget about the movie. Just watch the movie for the scene. The scenery of going around Italy is fabulous. And of course, you know, Sophia Loren. But we're here to talk about the Italy project in particular on Wiki Tree. So let me go ahead and add this project here. And Frank and Chris, why don't you tell us a little bit about the structure of the project? Cause I know you have a couple of different sub-projects within this project. Well, yeah, because Italy has to cover a huge country. Even though it doesn't really look that big on a map, it is and encompasses several different regions. And we have teams that can take care of like stuff in Calabria or Torino or anywhere else like that. And basically we just covered the entire country and try to bring in so many people that we can from each different region and just try to focus on that using sources from like Antennaity or Family Search and other places like that. And it's pretty fun. We also work with Notables actually because I think Italy has had a lot of notable people coming from there like for Columbus, you know, Da Vinci, you know, Pavarotti that we work with them because Italy has a very, very long and storied history. You really do. I mean, your Notables are probably a tremendous amount of the profiles that you guys work on and fine tune and finesse going through a lot of them. I'm just gonna pick a random one and what do you know? Probably one of the most famous ones that we have here. And I like showing this one because if you notice, look at the way the name is. And I wanna point out that as you're working probably on profiles for the Italy project, if you come into confusion with the name, reach out to one of these two gentlemen because they can definitely help you with how the name should be displayed and the alternate names if need be. But it's important to know that if a woman was born and lived in Italy, they always use last name even if they got married. They always use their maiden name? They always use their maiden name.  So anything that she shows up on, birth, marriage, birth of her children, her death, like everything is her birth surname. That's a really big part for us to learn. Yes, but if you're looking for a last name, it's like really common, like if you're looking for a song like, maybe I could ask you to go. That still would be a very, very common last name. So you would have to like see, look for a town that they were born in. And you're looking for your daughter, who's the name, by the way. Yeah, I think so. The other big, probably a really, really big section for Wiki Tree and the Italy Project is the Discord for those that have family members that migrated from Italy. I know a lot of times that we Americans think that, oh, they all immigrated here, but they did not. Large quantity of Italians did go to Argentina, Brazil, even Australia and Canada. Yeah, and some of our project leaders are part of the different parts of the diaspora in South America and in other parts of Europe. So matter of fact, our categories project is one of the things we've been spending a lot of time on the last couple of months, just trying to get those cleaned up and standardized and try to get a category set up for each little comune in each little province in each region for all of Italy to kind of make tracking profiles a little bit neater. So what do you find most of the work in the Italy Project is currently? Is it working on those purely still in Italy or are you finding a lot of people working on those that migrated from Italy? A lot of people who are getting started, especially if they are Americans or South American, a lot of their struggle is kind of making that leap, being able to bridge across the ocean to figure out who their migrating ancestor was. As Chris mentioned, names are very familiar and with naming traditions in Italy, names get repeated again and again and again. And so somebody's Francesco Santoro, there may be 20 of them who immigrated around the same time. And if you don't know exactly which town they came from, if you don't know anything about who their parents were or their other family members, then you've got this whole maze of different possible ancestors that could be yours if you don't know exactly which one. And depending on the timeline of the immigration, you may or may not get information about their town of origin or the town that they were living in when they moved. And so if somebody immigrated before say the mid 1890s, they'll just say, they're from Italy. It's like, okay, well, that's helpful. Yeah, that's very, well, I do wanna put you on the spot just a little bit, but this will be an easy one, I think. We do have somebody who has joined us who has been very excited for this particular project to be shown in Bingo. So Erin, I'm gonna ask you to give us just a little bit of information about a brick wall you have of somebody who did migrate to the United States. I believe it's on our husband's family. Do you, Erin, do you happen to know the name of, I guess your brick wall, the name and the location of where they came from in Italy? And if she could give us those two, I think that will help explain how we can research and try and find the correct person. And I do wanna point out that beforehand, Frank and Chris were giving me some tips about how to research for Italian profiles in Italy. And Chris, I believe mentioned, be careful of ancestry because a lot of people will pick a common name and not really do the research with that. And you're probably picking the wrong person. Is that right, Chris? Yeah, it is, because unfortunately, some names like Capola, Tadasko, Santoro, they are really, really unbelievably common. You might as well be looking for Smith, you know? And you were going to find that a lot of common names are out there, but there is a way around it, by looking for the naturalization records and looking at sentences, maybe, just maybe they'll have like a little hint, like if, then 1950 census, okay? If you look at that and know how there's a little highlighted section under 1950 census, what is that some people are from? Put down like, apparently from Italy, occasionally someone put like San Pietro, Amida, which is where my paternal ancestors are from and you could find a clue like they're like, okay, so that must be where they were born. So you can look for the naturalization records and look for family members and also if you have DNA matches, they can probably help you too. That's sometimes it will have trees and link you to those certain areas of the world. And something you see a lot too, if you don't necessarily have the naturalization records which specifies a certain location, just like if I'm talking to somebody introducing myself and they say, where do you live? I don't say, I live in Skokie because nobody outside of Skokie knows where Skokie is. So I live in Chicago. Okay, well, I don't live in Chicago. I live in Skokie. So, if you have somebody who says, well, my grandfather's from Palermo. So what was he really from Palermo, which is a city and it's a big city or is he from the province also called Palermo which has 80 something different little towns and he put their own little sets of records. But there are tools for like, kind of narrowing that down using the little bit of guesswork because there are tools where you can search like databases of surnames in particular provinces and see, okay, well, where is this surname found most commonly? Now, which community have this, the largest concentration of that surname? And so you can sometimes use that to narrow things down. It's not 100% scientific, but if you have a really rare surname, then it can definitely help kind of point you in the right direction to maybe narrow your scope from having to look at 100 towns to maybe looking at five or six towns. That makes sense. And we have an answer from Erin. So her birthplace says Forenzo. And Forenzo is the, it sounds like it might be a misspelling of Forenze. Forenze, yeah. Forenze. And then let me go ahead and share my screen real quick with you again. This is her brick wall. Yeah. So would you recommend that she take her, the maiden name and go to research it where the bird is located? I see she actually has Forenzo, which is a standalone town in Potenza, which is down in the South. And so those records are gonna be probably available either on FamilySearch or on Antinati. But yeah, so you would definitely look at what her birth surname is trying to find her birth record in Italy. And I wanna point out too, let me come back over here. One, the Italy project main page is a project resources. And one of the coolest things I have seen on WikiTree for help for sources is going to be Frank's Italian records online. And this is available to everybody. Let me see if I can zoom in a little bit more on this. And what he does is he gives everybody the information. You've got your region that you're looking for, your province and the collection name, but he gives you the link as well. So you don't have to go to Google search or find it. You can actually look. So Erin maybe come to this and see, I'll put it in here in the chat real quick, but it's on the project resources page too. And he's created so everybody can come in here, look at it, view it, click on a link. So maybe what Erin would do is go to FamilySearch first to see if she can find anything. And if she can't, come to this particular spreadsheet to the area she's looking for. And would that be, let me see, would that be, so she'd be looking in the, she'd be looking in the, you got to look by region first. So you'd scroll up to a Bacillicata because it's alphabetized by region. There we go. Yep. And then Potenza, you have a couple of different choices. And I was just digging on FamilySearch while you were looking here. And I know that. So for records from 1861 to 1929 for Forenza, they are actually in the Melfi Tribunale collection on FamilySearch. And what I did is I went to FamilySearch, went to the catalog, typed in Forenza as the place and it gave me a couple of possibilities. So for anything after 1861, you'll find it on FamilySearch and should be freely available at home. You wouldn't have to go to like a FamilySearch Center or a library. And then anything from 1809 up to 1860 would be on the Antonati website, also freely available online. Okay, Aaron. We gave you some homework there, maybe. That's great, Frank. Because do you realize you probably helped her break down that brick wall just from this presentation in Bingo. And since we're talking about Bingo, let's go ahead and bring it up. Does everybody have their first Bingo card up? Let me go ahead and give me one second. Let me bring it up one more time. I put it in the chat. We'll go ahead and bring it up one more time. And we might have a couple new people that are here. So what you need to do for the Bingo is just click on the link and it will bring up your Bingo card and instead of numbers like B9 or B8, whatever the numbers are, what we do is we come up with words that are based on the project. And the Italy project has supplied us with wonderful, beautiful words that I cannot pronounce. So everybody has their Bingo cards up. We're gonna go ahead and bring this up to full screen again. And Chris and Frank, does one of you wanna take the first Bingo card and then somebody from the office that take the second one? Okay, I got the first one. You got the first one. Okay, so here we go. So again, for Bingo, all you do is click on, if you have this word, click on. Bingo can be either way, it can be diagonal, it can be down, it can be across. And the first person who types the word Bingo in the chat wins a prize. If you won a prize at Bingo between now and going backwards the last six months, which would be a miracle because we've only been doing it for how long I went with the points. But if you've already won a prize in Bingo, you cannot win again until six months from your last prize date. I hope that made sense, it sounded confusing. So, but you can still play along. Even though you might have won a prize, still play along and I will tell you the prize is a t-shirt or a mug. Your choice. Okay, Chris? The first word is Bingo. Aval, aval. All right, the second word is Monterey. It's like in Spanish. Next one is Registro, okay, Registro. How many people do you think we have in Italy watching this right now? Probably one. You know what, we put in the Italy project on it and she said she would be there. General, okay. Feel free to translate these words. Yeah, so going back really quick. So, Aval is grandfather, madre, mother, Registro, registry or no, register and general is a son-in-law. Yeah. Oh, okay. And Cognomi is last name. Palermo is a city. After D'Naxita, that would be birth act, that would be like your birth certificate. His Waldo is an Italian town. It's also the last name of a crazy musician. His name was Carlo Giozwaldo and he killed somebody. I am dead serious. You're crazy. You're gonna find a lot of crazy musicians in Italy. Unfortunately, La Maseria was the event and it was basically what caused hundreds of thousands of millions of immigrants to go from Italy, specifically southern Italy to the rest of the world because policies after unification allowed for policies up in the north to be better and everything else, but they kind of left the self behind after unification. A great movie, a classic movie about this. I can't remember the name of it, but maybe you guys, it was a great movie about how the southern Italians migrated up to Naples, I want to say. Yeah, well, they didn't think it moved up, they also moved across. One dog, no, right? That's how you say it Frank? Well, I must have misspelled it because it's actually Moldugno and there's no N in the beginning there. Oh, come on. Don't worry, I have misspelled bingo words before, so you're safe. Yep. San Pietro Amida, that is where my dad's paternal ancestors are from. His maternal ancestors are from the town with a crazy eye and I pray that I'm not connected to him. I probably am. My great incognito, that basically means the father was not known because the person who is on the birth certificate doesn't want the father of the baby to be known for whatever reason. And sometimes she just doesn't want to, she's not married obviously and she just doesn't want the guy to be known.  But these are really good terms because as we research, these are terms that we need to understand as we research birth records or death records or what? Absolutely, yeah, you don't need to be like, you don't need to be a native speaker or even fluent in Italian to understand these records because they're very kind of very formula-driven. They all look the same, they're laid out the same. And once you kind of know sort of like the key phrases, key places to look for information, then it's a lot easier to kind of decode things. But definitely having a small working knowledge of vocabulary helps you sort out things. So Rala, that is, Easter. Yeah, there we go, that is. Pismo, that would be baptism. I was gonna say, this word's very familiar to me, but now I know why, because like I said, living near Baltimore, near a lot of Italians, we did go to a lot of baptism ceremonies.  It's really cool. It's your basic unit of government. Yeah. Registry, parochie. Registry, parochie, chiali. Thank you, right, right? That is it. So yeah, you've got civil records and then you've got church records and these are the church records. Yeah. So this would be church. Yes. Records. See, you're right, because of the formula, I kind of guess because of the PA at the beginning of it. Atodium matrimonium. Well, we already covered the atodium acetate earlier. This would be your marriage certificate, basically. And actually, there's actually two types of atodium matrimonium because this one from the process study, which is like your basic marriage announcement, like you're in a newspaper and like, hey, these two are going to be married in a couple of days. The atodium matrimonium shows that this is when it's going to happen, this is where it happened. And actually, it will list your parents and even your grandparents if you like. Really? Yeah. You can get a treasure trove of information from one marriage record. And that's amazing. And there's also interesting to know for your doing research for the kind of the early period, early period of what I would call Italy after the unification occurred in the 1860s is that there was a separation between civil marriage and church marriage. And to be legally married, you had to have a civil marriage. So if you went to the church and got married, that's great. But for the law, for legal purposes, you're not married yet. And so the church obviously not happy about this, the Catholic church. And so they kind of suggested not very indirectly directly to the faithful, hey, don't follow these laws about having to get civilly married. Just get married in the church. And so a lot of people did, they just get married in the church, wouldn't have a civil marriage. But then the state said, okay, fine. You don't want to get married in a civil ceremony. Guess what? Any children you have are illegitimate. I was just gonna say, that makes it tricky for kids. And if you have illegitimate kids, guess what? They can't inherit property. You still saw for a good period of time, couples who would get married in the church, have a bunch of kids who were legally illegitimate. And then maybe 10, 15, 20, 30 years later, they said, okay, fine, we'll knuckle under it and have the civil marriage. And then the state said, hey, magically, all of your children are not legitimate, so. So today, if I was married in Italy, would I still, if I have a civil and if I got married in a church, I would have two certificates? So the latter impacts that were signed in 1929 kind of cut this problem off in that church marriage was recognized for legal purposes as long as they incorporated a couple of little things into the ceremony to make it kind of bind both together. So in general, now in Italy, if you get married in the Catholic church and a select number of other faith traditions, your religious marriage will automatically be recognized for civil purposes. Well, that's candy. That's good. Well, this one is painfully obvious, Alberto Familiarity, then we trade. That's pretty obvious. I love this one. This one, I love that one. Yeah. Oh yeah, the Trohotello. This is basically, you know how I was talking earlier about the Padre Aconinos? Well, sometimes the kid will have the last name, Toronto, they will have Esposito and they will have, what's the other one, Frank? Oh, I got incognito, incognito. I mean, so these are foundlings, basically abandoned babies. Yes. Not orphans, would these be considered not orphans? Yeah, cause orphans, parents are known but dead. This is, parents are unknown and presumed living. Okay. And sometimes, now I mentioned the whole thing with the church and civil marriage, sometimes parents would have kids and they would register them anonymously. So they will be registered as a foundling, get a made up surname and go through life with that made up surname until maybe some point later their parents got civilly married and the children were legitimized, recognized and all of a sudden their surname changed.   And with Trobotello, I just won bingo, so. Apparently. Yeah, I won bingo too, but I don't have comments, so, you know. So, anyway, I'll skip Trobotello, no? Okay, we'll just keep going. So somebody in the chat wins. Atodimoto, that obviously is the death certificate. So, because atodimoto is archivo, archivio is archaic. My Latin is starting to come back. I'm having a little PTSD over it. I thought my mom was in handy. I know, Andre, father. Well, you know, Italian, Spanish, French and Romanian all came from Latin, so. What's your name? This is, is this the same word? Yeah. I think it's the same word, just misspelled with two ends. Okay. Yes. Is anybody close to bingo? I'm getting close to a blackout. I would think. I think they just like learning the words. Oh, we got one. Hey.  There we go, there we go. We got one. Okay, Sherry. So what you need to do is, let me come over here. You need to email anyone and tell her that you won the Italy project bingo number one and she will take it from there and get you all the information that you need. Yes. Okay. So while we do, while I bring up the second bingo card for everybody to bring up and get congratulations, Sherry. That was pretty cool. Because I was thinking you were right, Frank. We had to be close to a blackout with that. Yeah. Okay, so while I bring up, let everybody bring up the second bingo card, what areas would you like us wiki traders to help you with? Hoof.  Oh, a long, long time. And we go through, especially during the connectathon just like last weekend, I was going through there looking off stuff for Anthony and I found that some dogs don't like, cute up like somebody dog at the home work. It was really awful. But you can still read it. It was so good. You still put in the information, so legible. You just have to like take your best guess what the act number was, but it's so good. Yeah, so I guess I would say like for kind of people going forward, no, if you've got, if you have Italian ancestry, one, join the Italy project. Yeah. And two, even if you don't join the Italy project, still make use of all of our great resources. And I think you can show some of the stuff from the resource page. There's some really good apps that have been created for it too. A Gregg Clark has a killer citation app for the Antonati site. You drop in a URL from the site and it helps you mostly construct. You have to do a little bit of filling in of some details, but it'll help you construct either an inline or a footnote citation. So you can spruce up your profiles and don't have to just put in the old, personal recollection of this information from me. But even though this guy was born 150 years ago, I personally remember what happened. I'm not gonna fly because you're not a time board. No way, say those are my favorite profiles. I want to talk to the PMs that personally remember that information back from 1700. Yeah, I feel I want to send them a private message if you'd like a stream troll and be like, so are you a time board from Gallifrey? You the doctor? Yeah. And Erin, I see your message, you know, exactly. Don't worry about, if you don't know much about how to research in Italy, that's why you join because you have us to kind of lean on. And I'll tell you, at any time I see a new name pop up is joining a project, I'll go navigate to their profile and see, well, what do they have so far? And let's see, hey, can I help them, you know, build up a little bit? And so I'll leave some little research presence for them. And I think that's a really good point about WikiTree in general. You might have an interest in a project and the project, the interest level could be anywhere from like 1% to 100%. You don't have to have the full knowledge to join a project because I like what you said, Frank. The reason you join, sometimes you have a lot of knowledge but sometimes you want to gain knowledge. And that's the beauty of WikiTree. The projects that I've joined, they've been so welcoming. What do you need? What can we help with? What can we have you help us with as well? Because there's always work in a project and to help you get to another project better, I like how you leave little things for them, little presence, until you get them started. Like get you started and then maybe, maybe give you the impetus to do some more or say, hey, you know, how can I, what can I do for you all? How can I help? How can I help the next person that comes along?  It's like, all right, here we go. And that would be Danita Sonne. She actually lives in Italy and we have people like Christina Corbillani who's in a chat right now who's been working with Argentina or their record there. And we have some people who live in Brazil. And everything. That's fabulous because like we said, you know, again, we Americans assume that they all migrated here but they didn't. So it's really, really fabulous that the Italy project points out the different regions and you have people working there that know those areas. So if you do have somebody who went to Argentina from Italy, your project has somebody in place to help you out, get you started. You know where you'll have relatives? I recently found out relatives in Australia, actually. It's not that long ago, that was pretty cool. That's pretty cool. Yes, yes. That was very cool. And I asked you guys, I want to let everybody know though. So your Italy connections are your great grandparents? Wow. My paternal grandfather was born in Italy. And then my next closest is my paternal grandmother's father also born in Italy. Yeah, my paternal grandfather was born in Italy and my paternal grandmother's parents were born in Italy. So. So did you both grow up learning two languages? No. That's in front? I can see this with this one. That's where you're starting out, right? Yeah, my grandparents argued in Italian a lot, but I didn't really learn much of anything. I took Spanish in high school and that was very helpful when I really got heavy into Italian genealogy in the last four or five years. So there are a lot of, there's a lot of commonalities, but then again, there's a lot of false friends, false cognates that it's like, oh, nope, that word does not mean what I thought it meant. Yeah. My dad knows a lot of Italian and you will swear I've been Italian and that's all you need to know. Okay. So what would you say that for Americans, the thing that we get wrong about Italy? Yeah, it's not really Italian. Don't say Olive Garden, Chris. Can we just say the food in general? Yeah. That's fair. Well, it's not. I mean, American Italian food is great, but it's not necessarily Italian. And the things that people call, call certain types of foods, if you're up in New Jersey and New York, that's not how you pronounce it in Italian, but that's okay. So when I talk about spaghetti sauce, it's not really called gravy in Italy, correct? Oh, no. You call it gravy? Up in New Jersey, they call it gravy. Well, how funny, I've never heard that. No, they do that. But I don't live in New Jersey, so. Yeah, no, there's a great YouTube channel called Easy Italian, that's just kind of like it's about learning Italian and there's a guy on there who's from Southern Italy, but his girlfriend is English. And so they spent some time back and forth between Italy and England. And one episode, they had him try Italian food in England. Oh, yeah. Chicken Parmigiana, he goes, this is not, this is not exist in Italy. I subscribe to a channel called Colour What's Now, they actually live in Boston, he's from Italy, and they try all these Italian restaurants, and she actually took them to Olive Garden. Surprisingly, they go married.  I know. The one misconception that you don't probably realize until you start doing Italian research is that you think of Italy and think, oh, I know, there's all this history and it's just thousands and thousands of years of history. And you don't realize that, well, Italy as a country is a pretty new concept, you know, it was only formed in 1861. Yeah. And up until that time. It was the kingdoms, right? Well, there were lots of different kingdoms and duchies and this, that and the other. And it was the playground of all kinds of empires coming through and trying to put a stamp on things, so. Tentry of the centuries. Well, let me ask you another question that just popped up in my, from my own research. So if you have Italy and you have Sicily, those are now considered together as far as research, but before, as you mentioned, there were different kingdoms. And so I would, to find really old Sicilian records that would be going through, I guess, the kingdom of Sicily, was there? Yeah, so the good thing is for the civil records, you know, civil records were started by Napoleon when he kind of blew through Italy in the early part of the 1800s.  So from about, you know, 1805 to 1809 starting in some places, all through the end of the Napoleonic Wars, 1815. And then after that, everything kind of reverted through the Congress of Vienna. All the kingdoms went back to where they were, more or less. But some places like the, what was the, in the South, the kingdom of Naples, the reign of the Napoli, and the kingdom of Sicily, reign of the Sicilia joined together, became the kingdom of two Sicilies, reign of the due Sicilia, and they decided, hey, you know what, the civil record keeping thing is pretty cool, we're gonna keep this. And so they kept it in the South, they started it in Sicily, and the Antonati site, which has all these records, has not only the records of the kingdom of Italy from 1861 forward, but it also has the records from the civil records from those preceding kingdoms. So from the kingdom of two Sicilies, kingdom of Napoli. So it's got those civil records from those preceding kingdoms going back to the early 1800s. And that's a free site. All free, yep. So what you're saying is, is that I really don't need to go to Sicily or to Italy to go research though through their documents, I can find it online. Absolutely, and then. Well, that's a shame.  I think it's important for you to actually be there in person. Yeah, I mean, if you still good. Just, you know, you can only go back so far with civil records. And then we'll now, now you gotta look at church records. Well, to get to church records, a lot of them aren't online, you gotta go in person. Well, it sounds like to me that we need to have you both as our, you know, travel. Travel guides? Yeah. Sounds great, I'm available for a small fee, no problem. Just be there. Oh, honey, we'll take care of it. Okay, does everybody have their second bingo card up? We're ready to go. And not to answer Steve's earlier question. Yeah, there are a list of names that can translate to Italian and English. Hey, I find I'll link it to you, all right? Yeah, it's so weird because, you know, my middle name is Vincent, yeah. And Vincenzo, for whatever reason. It's James. People decided to Americanize it as James. I don't know, I had no idea where that came from, but okay. I'm sorry, it puzzles my dad so much because his name is James, and his grandfather's name is James. That's another thing, Italian naming conventions too. That's the way complicated, more or less. I mean, like, the name is James. It's not, I mean, the system isn't complicated. It's very easy. It just makes things complicated because everybody gets named after their grandfather. And so, you know, if a grandfather's got, you know, seven male grandchildren, they're all named after him and they all have the same name. And so, like, I believe these guys are running around town here. Hey, your name's Giuseppe. Oh, yeah, my name's Giuseppe. Okay, and that's where my great grandfather is. Yeah, and so actually, I mean, to kind of eliminate some of that confusion you see in a lot of civil records is the use of patronymics.  You know, so you see, you know, someone's name will be given and then also the name of their father. So you can kind of narrow it down a little bit better. My patronymic.  In my case, my patronymic is alternated between Marco and Vicente of the centuries. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And remember, if those of you came in late, one of the biggest tips that I've learned today are the females, the women, keep their last name at birth. Yes. That was a big one. Okay, we're ready for bingo. All right, let's go. Okay. You're up, Frank. All right, we've got Verona. There were two gentlemen who lived there. Yeah. If you have Verona, which we lay out of scene, Rich and Crutch break the new music. Great. Isn't Verona, Romain and Juliet? Yes, indeed. Torino, which in English we call Turin. Or that crowd was. So you had the Olympics. I think the Olympics are going back. I think so. Ah, I mentioned this earlier. This is Reino Di Napoli or the Kingdom of Naples, which was the reigning kingdom of basically the Southern Italian peninsula for about 700 years from about the 12th century to 1861. Give or take. Reino di Italia, that is the official name of the kingdom of Italy that was formed in 1861 when everything kind of got sucked up together. And this is when it became a united, unified Italy. Correct, yes. So 1861. Yep. After Garibaldi kind of blew through and conquered everything on behalf of the kingdom of Sardinia, which was really kind of the driving force from all this. But anyway, moving on. Parma, they make good cheese. Mm, I am, right? Yeah. Cimitero monumentale. So that is basically a gravestone. Oh, okay. It's really important to note that in Italian cemeteries, they kind of like rotate out your answers through the cemeteries because land is at a premium. So they take the bone out after a certain amount of time and they just kind of rotate it. Unless the family wants to keep the stone. Yeah.  So how long would a grave be rented for? Is there a limit? I don't think there's a limit as long as you want to pay. But I think typically what you see is around the order of between 40, 50 years. Yeah. And then the grave gets reused, correct? Correct. And then the bone, whatever is left in the grave goes to what's called an ossuary. So giant buildings where all the bones are kind of put together. And in some cemeteries, you'll have little family ossuaries that have centuries of one family's bones. So. Yeah. All right, Genova, which is how we call Genoa in Italian. Bologna, another big city up in the North. Yeah, five good ham there. Not Oscar Mayer. Stato Pontifico. This is the official name of the Papal States, which they had a good chunk of territory in the center of the Italian peninsula from up until Italian unification. And now they just shrank to the little neighborhood in Rome called the Vatican. I was gonna ask my next question. How does that relate to the Vatican? Interesting. Yep, it all emanated from there. And that is what you do, research. Wow, cool. Say that one more time. Ricerca. One more time. Ricerca. Reigno delle due Sicilie. This is the kingdom of two Sicilies that were united, united the kingdom of Sicily and the kingdom of Naples under one banner, which they really were kind of sort of united anyway because they were ruled by the same person and just in kind of, it was like a personal union. They were ruled by the Spanish Habsburgs for a while and then the Spanish Bourbons. So yeah, but this kind of just cemented the deal to say, nevermind, forget the two countries business, we'll just be one country now. Milano or Milan. Another one. Palermo, Europe and actually back to capital of the world. Palermo, hey, I think we saw that last time. We did. This is Sicily, this largest city in Sicily? Largest city in Sicily. Tons, tons of amazing architecture and history there because of the history of the people there. I mean, that's where you get all the blonde-eyed Italian from the Norman conquest that kind of ran over Sicily in the medieval period. Yeah, and it should be noted that if you see on a ship register, someone's coming from Palermo or Naples, that doesn't necessarily mean they were born there. That means the ship manifest was created. Those are the big ports, Napoli, Palermo and then Genova up in the north. Don't hold me to this, but the question is, I believe Sicily is one of the most conquered and reconquered and conquered and reconquered territories in the world. Yes, I would agree with that. You've got just a ton of history from the Greeks to the Normans to Islamic, Muslim conquest. I mean, just Spanish, French, they've all been there. So I would say if you wrote this from Sicily, your DNA is probably fascinating to see where all the regions that they were conquered pretty much. Okay. Let's go, we got a bingo. All right, you're the Calabria. Yeah, it's down in the foot of the boot. It's Irish John. Congratulations, John. So John, what you need to do is come up and email anyone and she will take care of you. Just let her know that you won the Italy Project bingo two and she will get you all hooked up from there. Everything, all your choices, anything you wanna pick, that's a t-shirt or mug, I think under $30. This is a really nice prize that Wiki Tree gives for these bingos. It's very generous and very nice. And I might add that the bingo mug is still popular.  I don't know what's the most popular prize. It's definitely the mug. Is it? So congratulations. Now, real quick, does anybody have any questions that maybe we didn't see because we were talking or something just popped in your head that you wanna ask our two experts from Italy here, Frank and Chris, because now's a great time. And I will tell you, I have learned a lot. I thought I knew some of the research of Italy but you guys have really opened my eyes on even more to learn. And giving me a little bit of hope that maybe I can go find a relative Sicilian people, ancestors, especially, I'm gonna assume, Frank, you have Sicily on that research spreadsheet? Oh, yes. Oh, good. And I tell you, and I don't just have civil records on there to, I've got church records on there as well. Family search has a good chunk of church records in Sicily, but there have been some new church collections that have come online recently. The diocese of Agri Gento in Sicily put a ton of church records going back to the 1500s online. The diocese of Reggio Calabria Bova down in the foot of the boot has done similar. So I mean, you've got church records that you can get online for free in some of these places going back to the 16th century. It's just... That's amazing. And what was amazing to me is I can go ahead, go to family search, which I'm very familiar with already for records and find these Italian records. I gotta tell you, I was pretty shocked when you told me that. Yeah, yeah. And just the trick is going to the catalog and not just going to search records because go to search records. I'll tell you that note that while the indexing of the civil records is done by family search, if you enter a name in family search, you're only searching maybe, I would say less than 10% of the available records. Most of them are all just static scanned images that you have to kind of go in and go through. That's a good tip. Yeah, but fortunately, again, on our research and resources page, we've got lots of tips and tricks to help you along, learning how to find... There may not be computer indexes, but there are handwritten indexes for these books, usually one for every year. Sometimes you have tenure indexes that are written up. And so it makes life a little bit easier, searching through 10 years worth of records at once through their indexing system. Sometimes some indexes are better than others. And you made a point that I always tell everybody, no matter where you're researching around the world, indexing happens every day. Every single day, new records come up. So if you might not find something today, you might find something next week. So always keep searching. If you don't find it first and you go after this, everybody starts heading over to family search to the Italian catalogs there. It's not there, keep looking. Probably definitely, because you said more and more records are coming up. Yeah, and I mean, I know family search can't keep up with the records that they add. And I know they're starting to work with AI and machine learning to try to do some of the indexing job because the human indexes just cannot keep up. There's just more, so much coming online. Okay guys, well, I would like, thank you guys. I think that we learned a lot. Oh, one question. I have something to say. I just want to say good job to Sandy because when we were first talking about the bingo stuff, I think it sounded like it would be more game and fun with a little bit of project thrown in, but you've really turned these into really good, like informative, helpful, but yet still fun. I think that's a question. So I've learned, I mean, I learned a lot. And this one, everyone that we've had, it's been really cool to learn. So good job on that. Well, that's so kind of you. I really appreciate it. And I will tell you, it's my curiosity. I think everybody has a curiosity and I really, really love the projects you guys stepped up. So we didn't force these guys. They stepped up and they wanted to be here for Wiki Tree. So I think that's collaborative, communicative and just awesome. Yeah, it's awesome. And I love how much I learned as well. And let me put in a little plug, go to Italy again and make sure that if you have an interest in Italy, reach out. If you have questions, reach out to both of these. Are you both on Discord as well? Yes. Yes, so reach out to them, send them information. If you have a question, if you're nervous about joining, they will help you out. And then don't forget in a couple of hours at the six p.m. Eastern time, we have class that Disney bingo and the second bingo card for that will be trivia. It'll be Disney song trivia. So join us for that as well. And otherwise, thanks, Frank and Chris. We enjoyed it. All right. Bye guys. See you later, buddy.