Thanks for being with us The floor is all yours. I think you might be on mute. Let me check Okay, and then you should be able to speak I am so sorry about that. I Said hey James. Thanks so much for having me and hello everybody and I'm glad to be back here So is it transphobic to not refer as transgender not to refer to not refer as trans women To trans women as women bleh So there are many theories, but no one knows exactly what makes someone transgender, right? Recently some people are focusing less on what makes a person trans and more on how to best best address the needs of trans folk I think that it goes I would hope anyways without saying that adolescents specifically I'm going through You know growing development hormonal phases that are identifying as transgender already suffer with a lot of Suicidal tendencies a lot of flak a lot of hate. I Think that what I found in this article that I was quoting from just now, which is what causes speaks a person to become transgender That was my favorite quote of it Like we're focusing less on what causes it and more on how to address it in general I think that if a person you know is Born different than we are born or you are born and they identify as either man or woman And again, we don't know exactly what causes it. Is it an you know Incorrect secretion of testosterone during fetal development. We're not sure but what we do know is that not respecting a Human being as a human being whether their man or woman is Harmful and detrimental to one's mental health. I think that not referring to trans women as women is part of that epidemic So hate epidemic against the lbgtq plus community and I do find it to be transphobic I also find it to be homophobic and damaging to a person's psyche and The just their psyche the way they feel about themselves self-esteem, etc So that would kind of be the basis of where I'm coming from on me saying yes side, you know I guess that's about it. That's a short opening. I I'll get more into it later. I promise. Thanks Thanks very much. We'll also kick it over to Nina for opening as well floor is all yours Nina Yeah, I'm gonna keep it a little short tricks. I know to be choose Long openings might get a little exhausting. So I'm generally I think that we're talking about like transphobia, right? Like there is a term for that might be a little bit better That I I've seen debated about is a trans mea or trans. I'm not sure exactly how it's supposed to be pronounced Basically, it gets away from the idea of like the phobia being a fear although obviously when you talk about phobia We could relate to xenophobia, which is not just fear It's it's obviously very much related to like hate bigotry like aggression towards something that's like different like all of that but a It might be a more accurate term, but obviously I want to make sure on the same page when we're talking about transphobia We are talking about what we know it as which is the like bigotry and exclusion of like Trans people as like an other group, right?  Sorry Would necessarily well, maybe you but I'm not sure would deny the fact that if if you think somebody's like sexual identity is not a acknowledge that that Like if you're not acknowledging their like sexuality that that would be homophobic, right? Like it just seems very obvious in in my mind.   It's the same thing You got it. Thank you very much for that opening and With that we're gonna kick it over to the no side But first couple of housekeeping type things for folks if it's your first time here at modern day debate We are a neutral platform hosting debates on science religion and politics We hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you are from if you haven't yet hit that subscribe button We have many more debates coming up And in case you didn't see the pinned chat as well as more details in the description box tonight is a charity stream So 100% of super chats that come in tonight are going to worldwide orphans It's a fantastic charity. They have a great watchdog rating So they're very responsible with the funds that they get so throw in a super chat for a good cause We're making a positive difference tonight with that we're gonna click it over the no side Thanks for being with us block and quick block the floor is all yours Okay, thanks for having us James. I'm gonna start off by just saying I just take transphobia to be some type of irrational fear or hatred towards transsexual or transgender people And so our opponents are making the argument that if you don't refer to trans women as women Then that necessarily entails that you are being hateful or displaying some type of like irrational fear But it doesn't follow that just because you make the claim that you are displaying any of those attitudes or actions so like of course you you can use Sorry, you can have like a negative action or some type of Attitude towards trans people when you're not referring to them as trans But it doesn't it's not a consequence of just making the claim on its own So that's my first point and then the second point is just going to be The acknowledgement that you know philosophers and sociologists and psychologists are trying to make the sex gender distinction So when they refer to gender, it's you know, not talking about any biological sex But I think that this runs into the trans inclusion problem, which we can talk about later in in the debate And so we're just here to defend the traditional and ordinary usage of the term woman Typically Gender is just referring to the human acknowledgement of sex. And so when I'm using the term woman I'm just referring to an adult human female If you were to look up what a woman is in any dictionary, that's going to be the same outcome So I don't think it necessarily necessarily entails that you have any hatred or or fear of transgender people when you're referring to women in the way that you grew up Hearing what a woman is the way society refers to what a woman is the way dictionaries define what a woman is I'll just like quick take the rest You got to go ahead quick Alrighty, thank you again for inviting us to speak the basic case The clock is bringing out is this This whole debate is going to come down to these questions about what is a woman? I mean, that's just unavoidable and I will be making the case that Basically this issue is an issue about categorization So it's going to turn out that and nobody disagrees by any of the basic facts about this so neither the The opposition or us would disagree about certain things one in terms of you know sexual Features such as you know genitalia all these things No trans women don't match those of cis women, right?  So I'm not here to deny that that that other concept that exists, right? So she spoke about sex gender distinction, right? The question is this Is there a practical need to have a sex-based concept of women, right? That's going to be the whole question, right? Because if there is a practical need For me to distinguish people based on sex and not just gender, right? So women in terms of sex then the claim I'm going to make the claim I I'm not being transphobic. I'm just telling you, right? So I'm gonna there's gonna be this practical end, right? So it's gonna turn out like you know almost all these major issues. This is gonna be really useful like sports Medics and You know dating all these things. There's a need for a sex-based Concept of women and if that's the case that I don't see how I'm being hateful or big at all. I'm just distinguishing one concept of women from a different one and that's basically the main argument I'm going to be wanting Thanks very much. We're gonna kick it into the open dialogue folks and want to let you know a couple of quick housekeeping things First if you didn't know all of our podcasts or I should say all of our debates end up on the podcast within 24 hours Of the debate being live if you haven't look us up on your favorite podcast app That way you can listen debates on the go. It's a hundred percent ad-free Yeah, one other quick housekeeping. Thanks for your feedback in the live chat folks. It's the camera qualities are fine It's at the encoder. I'm working on getting the encoder to chill out because we're a little bit overloaded So thanks for that feedback. But yes, we're gonna improving the video picture quality and with that We're gonna jump into the open dialogue. The floor is all yours. Ashley Nina Glock and quick Quick I want to ask you like you seem like you were saying You were conflating sex and gender I I'm confused in what your interpretation is of that like do you think that the same thing? No, I'm just saying Well, do you acknowledge is a difference between sex and gender? Absolutely. Okay, then I'm saying when I say women, I mean, I'm using the sex-based meaning, right? What's the why aren't you using in a gender-based meaning? I did. Well, that's my point, right? There's practical reasons to use sex-based rights in certain contexts, right? So if you're talking obviously in the medical situation, I want to distinguish people so if I'm a doctor, why don't you say female though? Wait, what would that be more if you okay? So if you're acknowledging that there's a difference between sex and gender woman is not The same as female. Those are the different things Women's gonna be yes. So as I was saying in my opening gender is just the human acknowledgement of sorry I just wanted sorry Gender is just the human acknowledgement of sex. So when it's not just female, right? When we say woman It's adult human female. There's gonna be other aspects. Whereas female.  Well, I would say something like first of all, if we're just talking about modern English, we can get into this debate I don't agree. I do agree with the clock that modern English Contemporary English especially before this whole thing exploded. It aligns more closely with The word woman being associated with sex being very strongly with sex So I think you guys are changing the concept. I mean, I'm willing to defend that claim.  No, no, like the sorry that was a really bad example I meant like the one that you would send in the mail like you with like a letter Very poor use of words. I decided to use there But are you like male like we're talking about male like we could talk about like email obviously is still a version of Like sending a letter, right? Like would you disagree with that? Just depend. I mean, are you saying in common English usage or what do you mean? Well, I'm just saying our our our understanding of what and such a bad Um, I think that what the opposition is doing right now is they are dancing around the elephant in the room Which is obviously we're not talking about How to properly use the English language if we wanted to do that, this would be a completely different debate We all know what's going on. We're talking about is is not acknowledging That a person identifies as a woman and refusing to call that person a woman simply because they are trans Because they are trans woman is that in and of itself homophobic and that's not necessarily a fear of like as Nina said earlier Homophobia itself. It's also being prejudiced towards a person who is who is LGBTQ plus community Minded or identifier, right? That's what's going on. We're not here to debate whether or not female or woman Technically, yeah, if I go to the doctor and I'm having a surgery Obviously the doctor is going to use different language than if I am Acknowledging a friend that I see out and about in real life That's not the same thing and that's just a cope and a very sad poor excuse of an argument for what we're really talking about That's how I feel about that subject.  No, we're talking about being transphobic and not not acknowledging One's identity which which I agree with you Nina. I think that is very Detriminally harmful to a person's psyche and well-being. I sure wouldn't like it I'm not sure if you meant to say public. I think you meant to say transphobic, but um, just to address that thought as well like I Sorry, you cut out on my end. I think that they're both kind of the same. I meant what I said. Thank you though Are all trans people gay? I'm in the same place like I don't think we need to get wrapped up in that I have no idea what homophobia has to do with this conversation, but I just if you like, you know I brought up how most, you know When you when you look up what a woman is in most dictionaries for example, Oxford English dictionary The first three results are going to refer to a biological notion of women, right? So I don't really know what it's like Why there's confusion for people definitions then And it does stem from the same place it all start like Nina said in her opening it all started from the same place Well, just the topic what's really going on Women is that is that bigoted is that prejudice is that is that not respecting them as people? Right, I mean, I don't know how you it depends on what you mean my woman, right? I Just explain the difference. How are you not seeing this? Well, let's just work there slowly, okay? Okay, what do you mean by woman, right? Depending on what you mean, I mean I'll the answer to that question will be different, right? Just please acknowledge that or I don't know.  I Did acknowledge this when I said that I think that we all understand what the real underlying question is You didn't understand what I'm saying that if I'm saying it's all about words That's my whole claim from the beginning so you can actually address my claim or you can just posture Okay, that I think that that's a cop out. I think that's not an answer to my question my point, right? So you're just Being prejudiced to not acknowledge one's identity. That's what you acknowledge your identity, right? I said that from the beginning What do you mean by that or to a trans woman as a woman? Well, it depends. That's why I said right the word woman. I mean, I assume that you would call them a trans woman, right? We look at the word is ambiguous. That's why I keep telling you guys, right? So in some context in some Doctors office. Are you a doctor? No, I need to just bring up doctor's office I brought up other examples around the subject. I just think that that's a cop out. I think that's a really cop out I brought two other examples. So I said dating and I said sports both are two other examples, right? So here's a common issue, right? Women's sports, right? There's a whole debate about this, right? It's just okay so Obviously, I think the confusion is this what do you mean by woman, right? If clearly when these people are talking about using the word women in this debate, I'll defend this It's always been understood to be a sex based concept of women, right? If look, it doesn't make sense to me. Why do we be offended? Why do you even be offended in that place, right? Oh, I Apparently don't agree with that. Okay. Okay. Well The why did people come up with the distinction? Well, let's go through this Why did people yes, which between male sports and female sports in the first place? Because there's a different playing field in a different level of right based on what?  You I could look like a woman, right? Whether or not trans people belong in the opposite or aligning sex that or gender that they identify with look Is this right is a transphobic right if I decide To this is my claim from the beginning. Okay, I'm saying I'm not bigoted if my intentions are just to distinguish Between cis women and trans women in some cases your intentions are irrelevant It was in terms of bigotry hatred, right? That's an intention. I have right.   I I don't know when you talk. I I think hating is an emotional mental state.   Like they actually had in their heads, right? That's the hope Eating that because they thought it was the good thing for their country. Do you know I'm not saying that wait That's consistent with the point, right? They couldn't have a the point is they still dislike Jewish people, right? Okay, but the point is that it was intentional It doesn't matter your intentions if you're not trying to be a bigot and you're still hating Jews a lot of them Weren't trying to be a bigot. They were just hating Jews Okay, I'll let me how about this you define what it means to be bigoted. I'll just go with your definition, you know I have a question for you though.  I promise I was like the one I gave earlier we're out and about we're at a coffee shop We whatever not referring to them as a woman if they want to be referred to as a woman in that scenario Do you find do you agree that you would refer to that person as a woman or when you were when you? Reference them would you refer to them as a trans woman specifically? I kind of am curious about that It just depends on the conversation the context, right? So my whole point and to be clear just debate Well Okay, there's this debate. Okay. Let's be clear What is what you're trying to show when I'm trying to show because if the claim is can saying Trans women aren't women in some cases be transferred obviously, you know, that's like almost easy to come up with right? So If you're trying to know, you know that some some trans person gonna upset you just do it intentionally to upset them, right? Okay, I agree. That's transforming lots of by any meaningful definition as transfer So if that's that's the claim that we're not assigning an interesting debate I you guys must be making a claim that's something like engine in like normally. It's like not ever really okay to that I mean Look, I'm saying something like there's a lots of normal cases where it's okay to make a distinction. That's my claim That's what I was saying when I like you're dancing around the elephant in the room to be honest Because if you look any of this stuff up online, you're or in general or you hear it on the news or Roseanne Barr comes on and says what's a woman? Whatever it is, we all know the subject that we're talking about you're trying to get into the nuances of technical definitions of words But the truth of it is are talking about not acknowledging one's gender or their identity. That's that's honestly I just I think that maybe because maybe you don't really feel like you belong on the no side So you're trying to find a way to justify, you know, your point or you think the no side is What do you think the no side is because I don't think you're I think I Don't know because I don't think the no side has been saying I said from this meeting I can't explain to you what's going on in the world today if you have never turned on a fucking computer or television and you honestly Wait, I mean we can have if you want to have like ten different like gather ten debates You do so but the title is is saying sorry is Trans women aren't women or people who say trans women are women. Is that transphobic? That is the title of the debate That's what we're discussing So if you ask me our trans woman woman and by women all I mean is adult human female then trans women aren't women Where is the I'm using my terms is there but Think give anything about the connection between that in terms of like language Okay, so if you think of what a trans woman is, I don't think any of them think that they're biological females Okay, that's not in dispute. However, they are clearly trans women that is a qualifier that they are maybe biological males or you know What is it when you're Intersex whatever and that yeah, yeah, thank you. Sorry. Um in the qualifier Is the trans part? Okay, so it's not that crazy. They are a type of woman like I don't give way Like why that is such like a hard concept to grow Look you said yourself right if If by women We define as adult human female then they're not they're not a woman in any sense in that sense, right? Okay, but if the trans part of it means that they Yeah, they wouldn't be trans because you that would a trans woman would be a person. Okay, so what do you think that trans part means I? Means you if you fix a term woman, right? You know the way the word trans this the prefix means something like went from the some rare transition, right?  Well, if that obviously that's that's not true, right? What do you know if why women I mean adult human female, right then trans woman would be someone who became an adult human female, right? That's just right, but when they I already said this the way they use women I've already acknowledged this is different, right? They're using women in a different sense in that in that sense. They can be a trans woman, right? So that's my whole point, right, but the claim is I I'm not the one. I'm literally addressing. What's the topic of the debate and The question is is it okay to sometimes again, I already stated this and if this is the claim no one I don't think it's like I don't know who would defend this if obviously there are gonna be cases the most extreme cases where literally, you know There's a woman You know, there's a trans woman and you just say something like, you know, I'm not you're not a woman just to you know You know, she's suicidal. You know, she's gonna be really upset by it You just say to just say just to piss her off just because you wanted to convince you Obviously that I'm not gonna defend that if you think that's what it means to say No, I think we're just very can be like the claim is about in the normal case. Is there a general normal usage for To talk use women in terms of sex. I'm saying yes, of course there is right It's actually first of all, that's related to my point. It is the common usage I'll easily defend that too. It's well understood and oftentimes If you want to get into this I mean, I I understand what you're saying I'm just saying like I don't think that it's crazy to think the like trans women are just another type of woman So it's like just I don't really I mean, it makes more sense to me being like, okay You have the qualifier of like friends women, but there's still women like Then definitions and the fucking oxford dictionary so earlier I apologize because I can't Glock right you said you brought up the transgender rights movements, right? That was you and you're I'm sorry never brought up transgender rights movement at all or whatever you said something and is it I was reading about it earlier like in the UK where they were talking about actually putting male or female on birth certificates Did whatever you referred to in your opening statement? I didn't I didn't say any of that It was on me. Well, I know you didn't say that specifically, but you were I'll have to go What are your opinions on that? Yeah, I Said nothing about I can go over my She's asking your opinion on that at least What I said about that I didn't say anything about let's just ask your opinion my opinion on what? transgender rights movement I Can you elaborate? Well, it's the movement to promote the legal status of transgender people and to eliminate discrimination and violence against transgender people Harding housing employment public accommodations education and healthcare. How do you feel? Okay? Just once you relate it to the topic of the discussion, then maybe you will engage I have no idea what the definitions of words in the dictionary because I really think that's boring I think it's dancing around the actual subject here. I'm curious No clue what you're saying together to be honest idea. Yeah, yeah, like I'm not sure why you think that but I'm saying I'm saying there's lots of normal normal conversations where you can tell them. They're not a woman Is that not the debate conversation? Do you think it was appropriate to say that? They asked me my dating preferences Okay, okay, so I want to make it clear. I have us when I say, you know, I'm gonna say Is ambiguous, right? So like obviously vice versa on that ambiguous Well, if I say heterosexual, right? I mean, I've seen this actually all the time when he right. They'll say well I'm a woman. So you should date me, right? So, I mean if you're not in a trans woman, you say you're not in a trans woman. That's fine I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. I don't agree with that I mean, I think there would be some but some I'm sure there's some people out there that of course would have a problem Okay, let's let me give the scenario and let's see if you agree with me I just think the somebody asked me my dating preferences They say and I tell them I'm a heterosexual and then they say well, I'm a trans woman So you should be okay with dating me and I said and I said to them. Well, look given I When I say woman or I mean, you know, I'm into women I'm I make it clear to them. I say I mean only biological females. So by that definition You're not a woman, right? Do you know who Blair White is? Huh? You know who Blair White is. Yeah, I know who Blair White is She's hot Why is that relevant? I'm just curious. I mean, well, I think she I mean, I don't know. I mean, she looks like a good at passing. That's what you want me to say Like if she was like a cis woman, you would find her attractive. I assume, right? I Don't know. I don't know what has to do with the topic Well, I'm just asking like is it Trying to get to the heart of this for like, okay So what is it about like if they've done like bottom surgery, they have like every part of their body is like they're like They look like a cis woman What is the problem then? First of all, there's still obviously, you know, other issues like infertility and other stuff But okay, but like there's a lot of cis women that are infertile. Yeah And so yeah, that can mean that they should have to tell you that I'm not talking about I haven't brought up telling me anything. I don't know why you bring that up Okay, is that related to your preference? Do you just want like a fertile woman? I'm just somebody could have that preference. Yeah Look, I don't know you. I'm asking you It's not about me. All right, that's not the problem. You're talking about your preferences. I'm asking about my preference That's not the fact that they're like in okay So why I'm trying to ask you if they had every appearance of being a cis woman Do you have to have a further? Okay, what if it just comes down to a bottom-level preference? I mean, what's the issue? That's what I'm asking you. What's the issue? If they if they look every bit like a cis woman like I already gave you one this point. There's infertility, right? But I already okay But so but then you're they're also telling me that that's not Relevant when you come to like because there's plenty of cis women that are not fertile Is that a do you would you ask women when you like if they're fertile that wasn't like going to go on their day I never said you I never I never Okay, so give me another question. What does it matter though? Like you are not explaining to me why it matters My example was I can Well, I'm not sure what you're saying. Look my example in my example. I didn't ask anybody anything, right? I stated my preferences, right? So I know I keep bringing up this issue about Well, maybe maybe you should explain There may not be appropriate to refer to a trans woman as a woman and this is an example you gave So I think mean is just a lab No, but she's saying stuff like ask I never I never they bring up anything about asking people I never I never said you have to tell me which what you're this or that I don't see anything about any of that What's the issue? What is the issue that that I'm not have? No, I'm not saying it's just I'm just trying to get to understand your perspective I don't know. I know you hate talking about people's perspectives, but I understand I wanted to get to understand Good press Nina did preface it by saying that there really is nothing wrong with with saying or asking your partner You know, hey just FYI. This is what I'm into or what I'm not into me specifically I'm a huge obviously trans rights supporter. I have family members my roommate like I love I love the lgbtq plus community, right? But I'm very specific when I date or in choose to engage in a sexual relationship with somebody that I am Very sis. I am not in any way shape or form anything but sis So it is okay and healthy and Nina did preface her questions by saying that But I think that she's asking some interesting questions and I would like to hear the answers to them Okay, what do you think if it's relevant to what I'm talking about answer? But if it's just if you're just asking me about my own personal preferences, right? I'm not like No, I'm not trying to cry by any means like I'm just trying to say like why Do you I didn't say it doesn't have nothing to do with me. Why do you keep bringing up me? Doesn't it look forget me I didn't finish my sentence. Sorry. Okay, but just it's not you don't think it's So I think it is to say a trans woman isn't a woman when you cannot determine What even we're talking about dating preferences that you can't even tell why that even matters I just think why it matters, but I mean you ignored it, but it's the fertility So the fertility I guess Are unfertil women not women even if they had bottom surgery you guys understand that's not the same, right as a normal I don't like At some point I do want to bring us as much as these fertility discussions are interesting I do want to still redirect us back at least unless of course it can be explained how the whole fertility thing Can be a direct topic I was I was saying we hold on I used to asking me that mostly but like I was like saying like if you think that women trans women are women like Asking that question of like you can't really determine what is different about what you're interested in because you're only interested in women like this kind of seems A little bit transphobic This might be a great time to go back to the topic of is saying trans women aren't women Yeah My whole point is in this case it wouldn't be transphobic, right? That's kind of my whole argument and there's I don't know They're just doing you're not interested in trans women. Sure. I mean you can have a preference Okay, I mean, yeah, we you can get I know you're asking me It's I'm not bringing I'm not saying anything about my personal preference. It's irrelevant to topic somebody. It doesn't matter why Wait, look, it doesn't matter why right forget me some Normal male probably many males have this preference, right? Uh, why preference for wanting to date cis women, right for whatever reason I come up with them if you want, but it's irrelevant Right. So I think it's incredibly relevant. Why? What was that trans women that you don't like? Why you said me again as much as I want to talk about other people's interest in trans people I do want to go back to the main topic. So I think if if it's possible to let go of the past Points we can go to more to the direct topic James I do have a question if I may Um referring to if I may real quick referring to what you said. So are we literally just uh debating the definition of woman and female? No, the title that I meant to share and I might have done a bad job at this when I Uh, invited you is I meant to say that the topic is quote is saying that trans women aren't women transphobic Okay But that's fine. We we can we can move off of the point if you No argument has been about that specific point Everything I've been trying to say right this whole point is I'm saying sure. Sure.  I would literally say you Women in trans women you just did it you said those words you said cis woman and you said trans woman You just did it problem solved What what do you mean? What's the problem with calling trans women women? All right, let me ask you this question. Is it the sound you're interested in or because I have a problem No, you just said you said you can't distinguish between cis women and trans you just did you you said I said I'm saying there are reasons there are lots of practical reasons In normal it's not the word women by the way. It's not the sound I mean that word It's not the sound literally you guys are getting caught up on the sound What do you mean by the sound? The the sound woman or the symbols women can mean anything, right? Okay, okay, so it's not about this specific sound women. It's about the meaning behind it, right Because look I I'm convinced this is how it's about meaning behind it. Okay So let me give you an example Um, if tomorrow we said this would you guys be okay with this? I'm curious tomorrow we said We're all right fine trans women are women But now what we call swiss women. We're cis women. We're gonna say say schwamen So everything changes. It's not good. I love that woman sports. It's not funny It's not the woman's hospital. It's the schwamen's hospital. Would you be okay with that? Yes, that's really funny Okay, well then Language changes all the time of course I think you heard of like meme culture Just to be sure that Glock has gotten plenty of time to Chime in as well. If you had any thoughts Glock. I wanted to hear just I know I Okay, yeah, I keep getting cut off L misogyny. Um, but I just wanted to say like Um, there's a couple of things that I wanted to address So I understand that the the title can be kind of big. I think you guys are taking Taking it to be something that it's not. Um, if I make the claim trans women aren't women your responses That's transphobic. Um, and by transphobic you said that it entails some type of fear or hatred. So So can you wait you so that's not that's not what one of you said transphobia means has nothing to do with I did say that. Yeah, okay. Yeah, and you're opening you said fear hatred bigger tree So I said a trans trans Mia is like a there's actually a movement in trans community to like use that phrase instead because I'm just like the phobic part. It's just kind of like semantics.  Can you show me how making the claim that trans women are women is transphobic? Where how does it until any fear? You're saying wait, see trans women are women is transphobic. No, I think that's not transphobic So trans women aren't women. I think you misheard. Oh aren't women. Sorry. I misheard you. Um, I would um I think it's actually kind of straightforward when it comes to that. Um Obviously They are a type of woman. I feel like we kind of established on this conversation. I guess we're going back, but that's fine If we were cutting you off my bad.  You can correct me on this. Um, it's kind of like the same Is like misgendering like is that kind of like the same vibe we're at? We're you know calling women women like I imagine that's like the same vein that we're at when it comes to like I said if I just make the claim like right now if I just make the claim trans women aren't women I don't understand how that's transphobic. I don't think you're making a good case for it at all because they She's like well, they identify duly identify with being a woman. So that just kind of I don't know more than anything like rude And like disrespectful If by woman, I mean adult human female. Can you tell me I don't know you mean to identify I know that they have a different notion of what woman is but when you're talking to someone who holds a biological account That doesn't make any sense. Yeah trans women are not women under their account of what a woman is Okay, but look again as we talked about the qualifier of friends. They don't think that they're biological female I know they don't think that trans women are not biological females. That is not a bigoted statement I think that's no trans person would really think that that was a a bigoted statement. That's not because like that That's fine. That's fair. What what I think is the problem is that you're saying woman, which is a gendered position um, where it is a just complete identity um related thing it it is just kind of like To be reductive It's just kind of mean and it seems very hurtful and it seems very much like you're intentionally trying to be um rude no, no, I don't think you Wait, wait, wait, wait. I don't think you obtain any feature by just identifying it as it.  Sorry, I how do you be gay? Is that the question? That's the way to identify.    So it seems like you just don't know then Sorry, I don't know what it's like to be gay.  Oh, well, I don't think you know I don't like to be trans too I didn't make the claim that I know what it's like to be trans I don't know what that is to what we're talking about. Look I mean, I have to bring this up then. Okay If I said I'm 100 years old Is it rude for you to say I'm not 100 years old? You think that's the same thing as your identity You think that is something that you can count I identify as a 100 year old person Can you can you categorize um like through like um, you know You know having a history of being alive as for a certain amount of time Like do you think you can like tell how years work like do wait, I just want to be clear Do we know how like years work? I'm not sure what you're saying. Do we know how years work? Well, I'm trying to ask you this I'm not sure what's asking me. I'm not sure the relevance to my question You know how years work We can quantify years You cannot quantify identity I don't know what you mean by that's Look, look, I identify as a 100 year old person Okay, but how can I I can tell that you're not a 100 year old person because I can quantify years Because I can go. Well, I don't know.  So I don't know what you're saying You can you can quantify that but it turns to the planet. What do you mean by quantify? I can look literally It's literally impossible to quantify somebody's identify identity. That's insane I don't know what that word means. Look, I said I identify as a 100 year old Wait, I just want to be clear if all it means to be a woman is that you identify with being a woman Whatever you mean by woman in the second usage, then quick and say I identify as being X Y and Z and for example, he gave you I identify as being 100 years old because if all you have to do is identify with the feature That then there you go quick as 100 years old. He just made the argument Is there any more? Okay, fine.  I don't care People waiting for what they identify as right? Is that not what you said? That's insane. Like you understand that those are different. Do you understand that like subtlety exists? Like I'm a I'm a bird. Fine. I'll do the other one. Do you want to do the attack helicopter meme? Are we at that level or what? So could you answer the question or Sorry repeat it Okay, I identify as a bird is a root. Do you think you identify as a person? There's a bird What? I didn't hear what you said Ash What's the difference between sorry, what's the difference between identifying as a bird and identifying as a woman in terms of how you get there What's the difference? All you need to do is identify with the identity Oh my god Hold on if this is really happening right now. I I I'm gonna call it out.  What we're saying is it to obtain a feature Yeah to obtain a I'm gonna make accusations could you at least explain them because I were Yes, honestly, I don't I don't know All I'm gonna say is this fight ashley's demeanor I do want to agree with her that I just want to be sure that we do connect this back to the The actual topic so just to clarify what and how this relates Okay Like I'll say it again. Nina said Nina said this. Can we all agree on this? You know again the nightest you said it's rude To tell somebody they're wrong about what they identify as right? Did you not say that? Uh, yeah, I'm talking about their self-identity obviously I'm talking about the scope of this conversation. Okay, obviously what we're talking about is gender identity Okay, I don't think that we're talking about being identifying as a bird Well, I think that it's very bad faith for you to think that that's what we're talking about No, I'm I'm trying to understand whether it's rude It's as a bird not a bird Transphobic, is that the is that the title of I'm trying to understand whether it's it's rude whether it's rude To always it's always rude to correct people If they claim to identify something is that is that clear? That's my point Right. So clearly there are cases. So look the case of transgender is the controversy Is that a very common thing? Exactly like what? Look the case of transgender is the one that's the hot the topic we're discussing right so it's hot It's heated right there's not clear, right? So I'm picking cases Well, I think it is clear that's happened you have cases of that happening cases of what? People identifying as birds There's almost certainly probably cases of that right but uh, I almost certainly Do you have one? Does it matter? Yeah, why? Because a lot of people identify as transgender and I don't think I know anyone that I that's not a feathery It's not like that identifies as a bird. He can still hit me. He can still He can still stipulate. You can just say yeah, of course. You can just say words. I understand that Well, no, that's not what I said Because if you're saying that all you need to do is identify Well, and I know you love not engaging with them. I just I just learn how to do it I'll just walk you through my god, please don't If you yeah, so quick can stipulate a hypothetical and say would it be rude if someone identified as 100 years old? Would it be rude to tell them that they're not 100 years old and you're with your response? I'm assuming it's not rude, correct.  Okay, I thought quick already a quick already address this I don't know Oh, yeah, I'm back to the quantifier. I don't know. You're just gonna defer to him. What? Oh a quick already responded to this.  Yeah, I was going to repeat my response because my response was that's my response So that's all I'm gonna just answer a different way That's if so if all it means to be a woman is to identify Wait, why is it why is all it means to be a woman is just you can't quantify how somebody identifies like what the fuck? What would you make that relation? Right, you know, and then you guys are on the same page. I feel like I'm debating like Three different people here or two. I mean, sorry Probably the specific question that you guys are asking. Okay. So in the very beginning I was quoting An article that was written about us how they're they're actually doing scientific studies to try and do just that What Nina is saying to try to actually quantify or or put a way that we can test Inconclusive, right? What is it that makes a person transgender versus a person that is not transgender, right?  I don't know what the confusion is I mean, this is exactly You can look at your birth date and tell how when you're born, right? Hold on. Glock you did say though. If I were to say A trans woman is not a woman. Is that transphobic? That was your question when you first started kind of this whole line of questioning or wherever we're going down Yeah, how is it transphobic? Is that yes, that is transphobic in and of itself because that is simply the question if I say Calling a trans woman not a real woman and saying a trans woman is not a woman. That's not transphobic You're you're you're you're assuming that people have your good intention at heart saying Oh, well, she's only referring to like, you know at the doctor's office If they have medical procedure or she's only referring to like a biological female in these certain circumstances That's not the question. So you can't say that that is you also have to look at the other side Hold on. You also have to look at the other side of that. There's obviously a flip side to that coin, right? On the other side of that coin One could also assume that you're not saying that in good faith that you're not saying that specifically Talking about what jitter tell you they may or may not have been born with that's that's what i'm saying And you're not you're not or refusing to I don't know if you just don't understand or what's going on But you haven't yet addressed the flip side of that coin Think that when you say that or when a person says that I don't automatically assume that they specifically mean and certain, you know sexual or medical like terminology reasons Like what I said in the beginning is that I think that this is about more than that I think that it is about not acknowledging one's identity Specifically their gender identity and then we can always look There's there's astronomical amounts of data that show what kind of harm that does especially Growing up with with transgender dysmorphia disorder or whatever the fuck people want to call it, right? Can we not acknowledge that side of the coin? That my whole argument is say I've been saying from the beginning. I was talking but thank you quick Yeah, I can answer so uh somewhere in my opening I said that It's so if you have the claim trans woman aren't woman It's not a a consequence in and of itself to make that claim on its own It doesn't entail that there's any hatred that there's any bigotry or anything like that and I mentioned right after Somebody could have negative attitudes or use it and have some type of like ulterior motives and display like some obviously Bigotry whatever they can have like different motives for using that I didn't deny that I'm just saying in and of itself It doesn't entail that at all And again, I so much makes the claim I think that that's I think that that's a clever argument But I think that the reason that this is even a debate topic to be quite honest Again, I'm going to go back to the elephant in the room is the whole fucking point of is saying trans women aren't women If you guys are saying that you're not seeing what's going on societally globally It's an epidemic right now We know exactly what this question is referring to and everyone's ignoring the flip side of the coin when you say that like Well, just saying that like, you know logically like if you just Define the words and you're just saying a sentence like there are a lot of sentences that I could say That everyone in society knows has a deeper meaning than that and to sit there and cope and pretend like it doesn't Definitions, I think it's just a pussy move Really because I think you're confused about why people are upset. So you're talking about this epidemic, right? Let me explain what's going on. Why are people upset because I think you're not everything correctly It seems like what's been going on this whole time is there was a common usage of the word women that included sex Of then all of a sudden this movement came about and this whole definition got confused Right, so then afterwards afterwards a lot of people some of them probably being a little bit mean probably unnecessarily mean Said no, you know, look, there's this common usage and there's a reason And there's a reason to use that concept of the word, right? So I've said from the beginning obviously Some people can be assholes and say that word, right?  I just do it intentionally to make you feel bad make you feel upset Of course, that's I don't I mean if you think I'm supposed to defend that that's not that's a crazy debate That's that's like trivially true I have a question when you're done. Sorry. I am curious I'm sorry. Okay Do you genuinely and I'm not I'm not being facetious. I'm not being sarcastic.  I'm asking you. Do you Do you really not know what I'm talking about though when I refer to saying trans women aren't women Can be a hateful or slow or bigoted or kind of a rude or crude thing I'm and that's a genuine question. I'm not trying to win the debate, but I genuinely say I said from the beginning there are cases where you can't do where that that is that that can't be the case Overwhelmingly so like you don't agree with that. No, that's not true at all I genuinely was curious about that. I'm trying to get a one-up on you I I'm trying to get understand where you're coming from Uh, and sometimes it is as simple as that people see the world completely differently, right? Maybe because and I hate I wish I wish there was a trans woman on this panel right now I feel like it's kind of I sometimes I feel like it It's it's cheap of me to be on here arguing trans rights all the time It almost feels I almost feel guilty about it because I feel like I it's not my job or role to represent this community But at the same time it is an important conversation I'm sorry to preface what I'm saying with that But maybe because I do come from a point of view of family members and loved ones best friends and even a roommate Who are transgender? I do look at that sentence. I have goosebumps right?  I was curious if you actually do see the world through that lens or not Right, I understand that so like I said, I already acknowledge that Obviously, you can use that word in a way to be an asshole, right? So there's no what no one I think you don't deny that I think you know those people they know what the why they're doing it, right?  Well, I really didn't know that was your I didn't know if that was like your You know stick like the way that you're gonna like go about the debate or if that's truly how you view the world was my point That's why I asked all I'm trying to say is there is a clear First of all, I've been one the common usage and this is important the common Modern English usage has been that way. I think the reason why there's been so much pushback is because there's been honestly a lot of Fickering gas lighting on what this right when people try to use the other term, right? Because that's how a lot of people have understood the term um, and so And so yeah, people have reacted hatefully but all I've been trying to say from this whole point is look There's a reasonable way to say you're not a woman in the way. I understand the way Right and the best way to put this is even old person, right someone who's really old Right, they don't really get the whole modern stuff, right? The way they think about the woman is the way they've always understood it, which is sex space And some trans woman comes to them and says i'm a woman or you know in terms of whether in forget even, you know You know dating or any of this stuff, right and and then they if they say you're not a woman I don't think they're being hateful or transphobic or any of that stuff, right? So that's just i've been trying to say the whole point is Quick can I ask you? Wait, do you mind if I get it? Oh, I mean, I didn't hear. I'm sorry. Yeah, you know, you're fine I just wanted to cut in here a little bit like For a very long time even after slavery ended they would still refer to people as the n word Black people as the n word. Do you think that? um That was like that we like but that was like a good thing No, that was bad Yeah, yeah, that was bad. Yeah Okay, so obviously they didn't think it was bad at the time Do you not think that maybe Phrases changed their meaning over time? those I already explained what the n word the problem is there's no need to have we already have non-racially offensive Gave though there was no need in the scenario you just gave it was specifically about culture Some some people are just not up with the times, right?  See what I am Yeah, yeah, no, but I'm saying um Mary, please Okay, okay. Well, let's stick to the old person fine. Um, even in the old person case my point is Uh, what's it called? Even back then let's say even goes an example the n word. It was always an offensive. There's always a racially offensive term, right? It was It was a derogatory term from the from the beginning. Yeah, but it was the normal way that you referred to black people I don't agree with that. There was and there was it wasn't to be derogatory Look, there was a non-derogatory term for that, right? I mean if you want I It's all starts at the end, you know, but you know it look I went into that issue, right? So look the whole point is talking about was always derogatory, right? That's very important, right? So I actually do think look no, it was just derogatory because they were seen as lesser than they just There was another word negro. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I'm sorry.  Go ahead Oh, well, look, there's another term called there's another term back even back then called negro, right? That was the more neutral term, right? So I don't know what you mean, right? You know, if you bring up negro, that's actually a good example of what I'm talking about, right? If an older person Uses the word negro. Maybe nowadays, you know, it's a bit more in the middle, right? But if back in the day, you know, older person says negro, you know that they don't mean it in any We know they're just No bad way, right?  Hey Do you think I'm sorry? Actually, you were cutting out the whole time I said it's but if we were in a doctor's office, it would be okay because then it would be droid Angeloid I'm sorry, what was your question Clark? Yeah, okay. Do you think colored is also racist? Yes Yeah, what do you think of the n double acp? What do you think about the n double acp? Just as a You know what the c stands for right? You know what? Yeah, but do you know what the c stands for right? I assume colored based off of the context. So my point is If If an older person so even older black people, you know, right use the term So it's I'm saying back then it wasn't offensive, right? So I actually don't I think it would be really weird to get upset at Organizations groups of people who not to be presumptive, but you you look like you're Asian, right? Uh, I don't want to discuss my race. I'm not okay.  Like I don't know if you are if you're not whatever uh, maybe you could like Understand that that might make people feel a certain type of way Right Right, I'm saying Nowadays I can understand what you're saying, right? I mean, I'm not sure I'm saying back in the days Right. These terms were not considered offensive. Even the people themselves use these terms Oh Okay, so like you've used them now you're like we're talking about trans people Okay, look your analogy was about your knowledge was about the u.s So this might be a good chance to kind of draw together the threads from this debate Before we do go to those questions. We've got a lot of questions So that's why I'm actually pushing us into the q&a a little bit early But we have a lot that have come in which by the way folks Thanks so much for your generosity a hundred percent of your super chat even the portion that youtube takes We're kind of filling in with modern day debate funds A hundred percent are going to worldwide orphan. So thank you guys for all of your questions Thank you to the speakers for making this charity stream possible They are linked in the description if you have not already checked out their links Check them out right now and then you can hear plenty more from them By the way quick if you have a link shoot me your link via email. I'll put it in there But we're going to give it to ashley and nina To wrap up with the you could say drawing together the threads from this debate and then we'll go over to Glock and quick afterward Nina would you you want to start you want me to start how you want to round it? Um, I guess I'll start because you started at the beginning.  I don't think that they did a Even satisfactory job of being able to prove that it's not transphobic to say that trans women are women um, I think that we did a fantastic job of being able to uh talk about how that is transphobic and um Yeah, I don't think I have much more to say than that Um, is this still I'm sorry james. Are we still like on the I I doubt I'll go six minutes. Anyway, it's okay So to tie the threads together nina. Um, I've watched you from from like one of your first debates to now You're you're really just becoming An unstoppable force. You're you're getting really good.   I can't remember his name.  This is social evolution people social evolution Respect each other's identity respect each other's rights respect each other as goddamn people Please all around the board and I'm sorry.  James. You're amazing. I'm sorry, you know, I get heated sometimes, but I always love coming on I'll I'll shut up now No problem We'll kick it over to glock and quick for their quick wrap up before we go into the q&a Yeah, I mean I'll go first. I feel like quick was really straw manned in that closing So I mean I'll give him more time to address that he wasn't defending people saying the n word but I guess a couple of things if you wanted to sit here and just you know ramble about like 30 different You know, you'd brought up trans rights in the uk. I have nothing.  That's fine Trans woman aren't woman. That's the claim that I would make I don't feel like you shown how that's transphobic by transphobic all you mean is fear hatred bigotry as Nina said I don't feel like there was a case made for that at all other than just restating that it's transphobic I don't think there was an explanation on why it's transphobic. So I'll give quick thoughts the time Thank you. Yeah, I think As I expected there was just a ton of posturing from the other side, you know Basically the bait was this I would make all these cases about You know why all these cases it is it's not transphobic, right? There's nothing bigoted or wrong to say these things And they would just say things like oh, you're transphobic or come on or this and that or you know When I asked them a question. So for example, you know, the bird, right? They would do the classic Just oh ignore dodge. Never did they answer my questions. Um, so I mean Let's put like this everyone who's listening what arguments that they actually give for for something being transphobic Nothing they just basically is from the beginning just asserted and postured, you know I mean, this is just a common move everyone does which is Oh, oh, isn't it obvious?  I mean But the whole point and the whole point is how conversation is that I don't think it is bigoted, right? And I gave very clear cases, right? So let's get through some of them, right? The medical case. They didn't even deny it All right, actually actually just think oh, well, you know, it's just doctors. Well, look So she doesn't even deny it. I gave another case of dating and what did they do? They started asking me about my dating preferences as if that's relevant to the point. I mean We can go on like the sports one. They just again brought up random issues All of these the whole debate basically was just this Over and over again. I tried to stick to the topic as best I can Uh, I tried to answer the question as best I can and they refused to answer They just posture and they go on tangents. I mean I don't know what else to say that This might be an opportunity to go into the q&a. I want to say folks Thank you very much for all of your questions a hundred percent of the super chats are going to charity also Click housekeeping thing if you haven't yet hit that subscribe button We have many more debates coming up and our first ever members meeting So channel members patreon supporters tomorrow at 1 p.m. Eastern will be sharing details about the upcoming conference November 4th and 5th It's a two-day conference that we're hosting called debate con four You don't want to miss out So do be sure you tune in if you're a member and if you're not a member Hey, just two bucks a month. You can become a member. What are you waiting for? We're gonna jump in with this first question from reborn girl x says common debate win for glock You got a fan out there glock simon allen said for the cause. Thanks for your donation simon Richie constitution says is my wife if my wife transitions to a man Am I a homosexual for staying with him or her? Uh, once they transition Good question They see who that was for or Quick you're muted by work So let's say just to make it more concrete because I know it's abstract is let's say I'm a man and I'm let's say married to a woman and let's say my wife transitions And says like actually like I felt like a man my whole life and I'm finally having my body like match it And I'm like, whoa, I had no idea like we've been married for years. Am I gay? Well That's a hypothetical so I'm not married and but give go ahead. Would I be gay? Right, um Of course, this is my whole point is it would depend right but obviously Probably given the common english usage. You wouldn't be right.   I think it was originally for you, ashley and nina I would say 100% absolutely no at the time of your union of marriage. You were with somebody Who to all intents and purposes to you identified as either a man or a woman and You identify as sith and and thus that is the gender that you are in love with or prefer to be with Now then there could be nuances to that Well, did this man or woman have feminine or masculine characteristics where their telltale signs, etc Etc we we can we can kind of go into the the weeds on that one all day long But inherently for like like what quick said earlier the definition of it, you know, I would say no But I get where the person was going with that respect to them. It's a clever question That that would be my response. Thank you Yeah, I would go with like if you had traits that you liked about them It's like they're gonna completely change, you know, I absolutely agree with what ashley was saying with that Um, I I would just say like I don't really think it matters like we're just talking about like Oh, like labels like we're stuff you could maybe make the argument for that But I just don't as long as you guys love each other who gives a fuck honestly You got it this one coming in from el orante says gender turned philosophical while sex remained biological Which one is based on empirical evidence biology or philosophy? I think that they may be by gender they mean I'll give you guys a crack at first interpreting this Anybody got a good grip on it fair to I don't think that's necessarily a Incorrect statement. I think that that's fair to say that like when we talk about philosophy We're talking about identity. Like, you know, like like the the questions of like Existence like the existential crisis of who we are, right? So that's more of a philosophical conversation We talk about like gender of course because of your identity. Um, where we're sex is like, um, you know more of a Biology or like a more science-based thing I I don't think that it's a crazy question or a crazy statement to say go ahead I think that um in the at one point during this whole conversation I kind of touched on that one a little bit but basically A big thing to consider and I will I really implore anybody out there to really look up some scientific articles right now on On what makes a person transgender, right? And the fact is that medically and scientifically there are theories But we just don't quite know yet So this is a great area important question to ask But I also think it's important to acknowledge that if we really do want to go about A scientific or medical route that the data is just we just don't know yet. It's it's we're going to though I believe in us This one from spencer says the yes debaters See, they say they're angry and they swear.  I think they mean of you four speakers or maybe I identify as non-binary There you go I like Two two probably has Ella rante says karan says Everything is created in pairs not only humans ron eludes that even plants are in pairs of two genders What are your thoughts? What about worms that are that are unisex that can literally Be cut in half and become a new bean or frogs Yes, frogs what come on give me a break that it is not that's that's factually Frogs can literally trans themselves. They can literally or clenched fish can also trans themselves. They can literally change That's arguing but I question because it supports our our side of the the fence so Good question. Yeah This one coming in Thanks so much for your question pointless poppy says no trans person is claiming to have different genetics than they have Yeah, quick. I agree. I don't think we believe that trans people are making the claim that they are females It's just how we're defining the terms. That's I mean, that's the exact issue, right? Yeah, I mean everyone knows there's a biological difference. So the only question is Is there a need for it for that constant? But do we know the biological difference between some transgender people and some people that do not identify as transgender? We don't yet We know the difference between male and female. We know the difference between male and female and then the sign Give them or Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. What intersex condition does not fall under male or female Well, they're intersex, you know, what intersect there's no, no, no, no, that's a category error There's intersex conditions. Which intersex condition does not categorize as either male or female I'm happy we brought up intersex because I wait. Let me ask you this question They don't there's no there's not a there's not a What is your question? I don't think you're really you seem like so excited to ask this. I don't feel like it's going to be Well, let me see this What do you think about bald people do you think you understand some people All bald people intersects. No, I'm not talking about that. I'm making a point about in vagueness. Look At what point does something become bald? I have no idea. You have no idea, right? Right, so it seems it's kind of hard. So look, you agree there are bald people, right? Yes, right. So can you agree there are people who are not bald, right? So all of us here probably are not bald, right? Are you trying to brag about your hairline? Yeah. Okay, so Where does something become bald? You see you just say you don't where where do they come by? I don't know. Like what do you mean like Look, I have a certain amount of hairs on your head, right? You can count the hairs on your head What number is required When you to become bald or not Well, I I have no idea what you would qualify that You say you don't know what? I have no idea how you qualify that I'm not an expert on this. So it turns out that it's pretty hard to tell right in the middle, right? A lot of our concepts are like this. They're vague. It's called vagueness. It's in the air So we're no right. There's not always clear cases in the middle, but it doesn't mean there aren't And there aren't people who weren't bald, right? You realize you're making a pro-transgender argument, right? How am I making a pro-transgender argument? Do you think for more than five seconds about the things that you do? Yeah, I think no, no, please respond. No, no I this is I disagree completely. Go ahead. Yeah, the gender's a spectrum, bro What and I'm making the claim there are clear cases right where people are women and people are men That doesn't make any sense of what you just said.  I just asked you are there bald people or not, right? There is a spectrum of people, right? But there are clear cases. You think Captain Bacardi was bald?  No, hold on. Are we like talking George Kastanza or Mr. Clean? Like where are we at?  Would you say he's bald? Well, I just want to I just want to Shame like like dumb because it actually kind of supports our argument more than it supports yours Well, I mean you can say whatever you want. I mean I explained why it doesn't but as I expected you guys never respond to what I say This might be a great opportunity to go to the next one.   I feel like I I If I didn't stream like often I would not think about trans people as much as like bigots think about trans people Like it isn't I don't think trans people think about trans people as much as like bigots think about like trans people Like just like constantly wake up in cold sweat. Oh, what if I get trans?  They're just people trying to live their life Like I don't understand what the problem is.  That's what we call posturing That's what I call posturing There's one coming in from chris g says if a person answers the question What is your gender with I don't know then how would you determine their gender?   It's not a matter like I I person I didn't find as non-binary I'm not I don't care like I used to play this is like a really I'll just really quick really quick I played video games a lot and um, I was This is the most embarrassing thing to admit. I played League of Legends and I was obviously referred to generally as a dude because I was like pretty high level play and it was like I didn't really care and I think that's kind of like what was like a Moment for me that made me realize I just I don't care about like my Like it doesn't mean anything to me when it comes to Like what I'm called like people would refer to me as a dude all the time and it's just like whatever I didn't find it offensive. But I think somebody who is like really Interested in their gender identity probably would but I didn't care You know, I think that's a really good point and and and I want to elaborate on that to say that if it is important to the individual Then just respect their fucking boundaries And if it's important to them Then move on I mean a great point So yeah, they didn't answer the question that much This is another good example where like I said it in a very sorry Do you want to repeat the question and a very specific context in a very specific context?  Oh my god. Okay. I'm sorry. I'll show you what you're saying. It doesn't matter in the medical case That does matter your your actual sex doesn't matter and I said, yeah, you have no response and I said you would ask the person Well, the question was they don't know right? No, the question was I you I said before talking about gender identity Again, you're mixing up Bob Celesti says please step on me Glock senpai This one from Jimbo Kahn says what rights do trans not have? And they say this is a serious question well in in some states like they're trying to Um deny gender affirming care like in like I think florida. I mean assuming. Oh, we're doing it all, baby Hell, yeah But yeah, um Yeah, there's plenty of places that people can't get gender affirming care in states, which is incredibly unfortunate It's like if you have like depression Like it's bad example, maybe but like you can't get anything that like would help you with it or you have like ADHD Maybe that's a better And you can't get like like any sort of like care for it Like that's kind of words that were just like you just like don't get like something that makes your life better Um, and if you truly look at statistics and data you can see that transgender individuals specifically young transgender individuals that do receive gender affirming care are Statistically less likely to be press commit suicide. They're happier people They live fuller lives and this is in the data if you guys are so focused on data Actually look at the data even conflicts your preconceived notions and bigoted ideas and and and concepts This one coming in from do appreciate your question Richie constitution says Ashley and Nina. Can someone change their gender whenever they want? For example, one day they're male and another day they decide to be female Okay, I I love when people make these arguments because that's not really how that generally works, but it It's not necessarily foreign to happen where people change their identity It's like growing up, right? Like you don't really know who you are growing up. Maybe somebody thinks that they might be Um, you have some identity or the other and then they're like, okay, why? You know, I've lived as it for a while.  I'm actually not really into this like you don't know and this you try right like I think a lot of people do know because most people that I think like Are trans are older people who have lived their entire life being like I feel I just I don't feel like me and then they they don't Really know why or they don't understand like until they understand like then they then they look into like their gender identity And they're like, oh my god, this is where this comes from and they then realize that Oh That's what all of this was it's just I know that I don't think it's like a willy-nilly thing for fun. I feel like that's like saying like There's a joke I heard in the other or the other day this might be a little much but like It's like a Never mind. You know, I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna say I want to piggyback really I know we're short on time really super fast I did watch a clip either yesterday today.  I mean it could be that they're trying to do that I could be wrong in how I interpret it. I just interpret it as like send a person like choose Not for the purpose of malevolent intentions of going into bathrooms, but like just because they Like intrinsically want to you could say so it's not a means to an end to do some sort of social ill Uh socially ill behavior. It's like where they do it because they just want to In in the it is That question is often linked to what I just said only because I I watch a lot of the content and I know That is the only reason I felt relevant because some people in the audience may truly Make that link in their mind. I've heard it Many times be related and I apologize if I was off topic or off color with that statement No, I I don't think you were I don't deny that some people do it that way I I just interpreted it that they were like In terms of the question of like can someone just decide to Not from so it sounds like you're like no They don't do that for malevolent purposes, but like can they just do it? I think they were asking Let's say for the let's give them the benefit of the doubt that they were just asking Not to say that so someone can go into bathrooms But they're saying like well can someone just do it because they just in and of itself want to decide to change genders Probably fair question. I agree. No No, I I I respect that I do I I I'm sorry to insinuate that every single person that just like when I was talking to quick earlier And I truly truly did not understand that his point of view was Well, you're okay. I don't blame you Sorry, I'm not I'm not worried about that like I don't blame you I know that those are well there is an argument about gender fluid if that's kind of where you're getting on Yeah, I think they're just saying like can someone just For the sake of changing their gender in and of itself not with any sort of malevolent Intent but just because they want to in and of itself. Can they do that? I don't think that it is want though. I think that I think that that's a big thing. So you feel Can they though whether or not like I don't know who I mean there's seven billion people in the world So I think they would say like hey, maybe somebody wants to can they if they want to her I mean there's there's gender fluid people that like That might relate to a little bit. I'm not really that familiar. I don't know personally anyone that's gender fluid I'm not sure if you do actually but like I Know that people sometimes feel like they relate more one to the other on like kind of a fluid basis um, I'm not personally that um I don't know that much about being gender fluid I'm not personally so um if that's what the argument is then I mean some days I like to be a top and some days I like to be a bottom. Does that count? This one coming in from Nayan Kumar says good day from down under say men are assault rifles and women are submachine guns Taking the parts off one and putting it on the other doesn't change the other gun into an assault rifle All guns have a cast for production a k a dna. You can't change your anatomy completely peace Very fair and no one and by the way, they never denied any of this in the debate I think that's a very fair point about Common English usage and they never even that's why I actually expect them to deny some of these stuff like Sometimes they'll bring up points about you know intersect. I mean it wasn't brought up in the debate or about You know to make a point about well, you know, how can you tell if somebody's a man or woman? But they never denied that so that's a very fair point This one coming in from do you appreciate it? Maybe brain argument, but I'm sorry. I don't want to give you a chance to respond Oh, it's just kind of a silly argument. I mean, like, yeah, he's right. We didn't deny any of that because or but like just Does that how you look at the world? So silly Okay Just because you've got so many I've got a Richie constitution says Ashley by the way, Nyad Kumar. Thanks for your super chat Super generous one to the charity tonight appreciate that Richie constitution says Ashley if a fetus identifies as a baby, are you allowed to abort it still? Yes, abort all the fetus Chandler says W Glock W being pretty and then I don't know what this symbol is. I don't know what these The emoticons are the young people you Let's see It looks like some sort of leftist behavior, but uh, thank you Chandler. They say W block W being pretty Nina Why actually so mad and then it has a skull I learned what that one is But pointless poppy Pointless poppy says Glock. I identify as someone who likes the color blue. How can I prove that to you? There's a I'm confused with my questions really big. This one from uh, I don't go ahead Yeah, I really just don't know what they mean In defense of the gospel says 350,000 casualties in the u.s. Proxy war with russia and americans live in such luxury We are arguing about men dressing up as women if they are actually women. What was the point of women's rights? um They're just asking like I don't know we can we could talk about different issues Like this this could still be something relevant to discuss along with all the other things that modern day Talks about so By America, right Okay, god bless god bless Since actually I don't see how it ties to what was the point of women's rights Are they saying Is this like a turf type of argument not I'm not trying to use turf as an insult. Oh, yeah I know that it's like people say yeah, but I think so as like the uh I think there's it might be related to like my examples about like sports and stuff right like, you know Kind of yeah, the the argument that a lot of us specifically. I'm not trying to you know, but specifically or major The majority of right wing women specifically says white right women the argument there is that Including trans women as women It kind of digress It kind of takes us back years in the women's rights movement that basically Everything that we fought for they shouldn't be a part of they shouldn't be privy to it Because they're not really women and it's kind of a slap in the face to to the progress we've made so far Which I find, you know, kind of ironic coming from cis white, you know Right wing women personally, but but that's that's the argument in the connotation there. There's a lot of This one from You appreciate it reborn girl. Alex says the villager. Let's see They say Nina, how would you feel if you Didn't have breakfast. I don't understand what this means She just went to do was it for Nina Richie constitution says james. I might ask Glock to marry me. Wow Let's see, thanks May I really go ahead? Glock you are very pretty and I get heated during debates, but I really enjoyed the the banter but back and forth I just wanted to I'm not I'm not all bad. Okay Joe brand. Thank you so much. No you're sweet. Thank you Joe brandon says a woman always meant female Female always referred to what sex the person is I think they're saying that this is like the there was only a recent changing in the definitions I would agree. He's right and I think that uh, uh I'm sorry quick quick. I think that you really honed in and kind of nailed on this one earlier This one coming in from Richie constitution says if I'm a white man, is it okay for me to identify as a hispanic female or just female and not hispanic um I think that I think that would go back to those kind of you know back to the argument of like am I a bird if I was him You know, yeah A good question person. I'm waiting for the answer. Go ahead I I Identifying as a bird is the same as I don't know that question was about res He's answered there. You said I said it's okay. Hold on. I'm waiting But you never the same question then why why can't I ask you that About me but no, I want you to answer the question. I mean they Quick quick. You brought something about birds. Go ahead I specifically did say and Nina said very very eloquently And and and she makes a good point that there are some things that you can quantify Based off of actual scientific data that that everybody can quantify This is a great area and we don't yet have all the scientific or medical data. That is why that's sorry What what about birds? You actually at one point you said dna that birds humans Huh can we just Click I just think they unironically just agreed with race realism like they said I just want to know forget my bird question. The question was about race. Could you please answer it? We're talking about a bird You know, maybe you can come in James Ask the question. I'm sorry, Nina a white male. Can you define as a spanish female? That was the question Or just the female part Nina what they're I was saying that it's another one of those interchangeable arguments because a female isn't an identity that that is like a scientific Like you were able to be able to quantify that That's what she said. She already answered it for you.   I'm sorry Well, no, no, I'm not gonna. Sorry. I can't let you guys get off this the question is could you identify as an hispanic person? Yes, or no I That doesn't answer the question.  Sure, you can identify with that.  It's a white man Yeah, most people would understand as Most people so it's just the majority.  That's a very good argument Nostalgic aberoth says this is why government hasn't Confirmed aliens people would be identifying as martians the brain only knows what it knows Funny how people have spirit animals as animal. We've heard of Why is it never an extinct species of dodo bird that is their spirit animal My spirit animals a river otter and I 100% believe that the government is covering up the existence of aliens I think it's about rivers I think maybe I have no idea how to answer that I think what they're trying to do is say That people only identify as things that they know of as existing and so I think they're saying Okay, pretty much it Invalidate trans people identifying as the opposite sex Or a different sex, but I just don't fully understand how it does It's poorly worded Maurice we might come back to that one. Maurice. Maurice Smithville says is it transphobic to call A trans woman a non-woman Yes I would imagine so This one from bite me said just a heart and a smile. Thanks for your donation to the cause bite me Leftist dropout says just here to say I love Glock and she did so well Love you Wow, Maurice Smithville says would it be racist to call a transracial black man the n-word even if he liked it Is it in bed? Exactly I was about to say that Nina Let's make it more concrete. So if quick Came on tonight and he says hey everybody. I'm black and I identify as black and would it be racist for Ashley to call in the n-word Yes, 100% even if he liked it it would be It's offensive in general and to the the people listening. I wouldn't do it But I'd be a black man or not Well, I mean if you were weren't I think it would be offensive either way That's fine. I'm just separately. I'm just kind of curious. Would I be if I were to say I'm black. Would I be a black person? I don't know What if he didn't maybe what they're trying to get at is what if he didn't Identify as transracial and he was just like hey, it's me quick. I'm my normal You know my usual race that I look like and then what if It's pretty harsh to you set up the theoretical or Ashley Let's say person acts use the n-word or Quick would it be racist then? Right. I think you probably still say yes, right? Right, or would you say no, okay This one from hot dogs for sales says Ashley in all caps. Wow They say Ashley. I tell liberal women who support trans that their own transition is going really well They're always offended by this Why the double standard if they don't think there's anything wrong with transitioning? Why are they so offended when I uh, tell them that their transition is going well Um, I I was I was kind of trolling in chat and my comment was my bottom surgery has gone very well Feel feel free to you know, shout it to the Shout it on the rafters. I guess I don't I don't I don't I don't know if this person is as Being genuine and what they say I imagine a question like this Wouldn't come This is me maybe stereotyping sure, but I I wouldn't imagine a question like this would come from someone who genuinely and authentically Um has many close people to them that are friends that are transgender going through transitions, right? I I feel like this is a Loaded question and I kind of know I kind of you know who that account is too. So All in good fun hot dogs for sale Joe sees has explained why if affirming trans people is correct Why is affirming a schizophrenic not correct the death rate after a transition is 24 percent? Good question. What is the death rate? Just the death rate. I think that they're saying that the death rate after a person transitions Is too much suicide or death I think that they are suggesting that it's Suicide unless like transitioning causes you to have like an unusually large amount of auto accidents or something I'm it must mean I'm not trying to be it's because if you transition into a woman You can't drive anymore. Of course as we all know, but I mean if you're really gonna say that like What I mean if you have one parent that uh that affirms your gender Like the amount of suicide rate goes down by an insane degree. Oh my god. It's like Like 90 percent.  I'm sorry. What's the other part?  Okay.  Okay schizophrenia is a mental illness They're clear.  No, I don't think that's what they're trying to do. So do you want me to explain what they're doing? How do you explain it? Hey, I'll explain it and then we'll see at the end. Who's the idiot? Okay, okay Okay, so can you repeat the question? So the the whole point is is it? No, I'm not asking you. Go ahead. Go ahead repeat the question I want to I want to hear Not related. I want to hear this. I really do I do. I just want him to repeat the question James. Can you repeat the question? Sorry? Yeah, the question was why if it's Good to affirm trans people in their transition and they still Not all but they're I think they're saying like a good amount of people who transition still commit suicide after like Why don't we also affirm schizophrenia? Right. So the question is why don't we affirm schizophrenia? Right? Okay. That's the second part of the question I care Please be quiet for a second is more specifically if anybody's unfamiliar with schizophrenia Do you notice I'm like improving on my patients Ashley? And Nina, I love it this one I've been snippy with them in the past is that They basically anybody that not familiar with schizophrenia is some of the common Symptoms you could say if schizophrenia are delusions So like beliefs that people are out to get you usually they're more paranoid inclined And oftentimes hallucinations to like thinking thinking that you see someone in the room with you who's not really there So that's I think they're saying like should we affirm those? Delusions, let's say of schizophrenics Right. We are supposed to affirm trans people's Right, right. I think I think that's yeah um So the question I mean the way it went went without Revencing mental illness that all the question is this is the way I took it. I think it's um That's a free schizophrenia Believes certain things that they're wrong about right Right, they think certain things and they're wrong about it, right? They have the right Is it wrong to correct him? Right I in doesn't why what does that do with mental illness? You are confirming Because the debate has been about whether trans is it wrong to say trans women are women, right? So the if it turns out that if some people are wrong about certain beliefs they have, right? right Then The question is is it rude or wrong always to correct them, right? So I'm not I don't have to appeal to the click that question that argument I just presented as nothing do with mental illness. So yeah You literally just made my argument for me.  I don't feel like I have to say anything more Okay, just dodge it again. You can go to this You literally just compared mental illness to transness again Do you understand what you're saying?   I don't have to say anything more. Okay Go ahead Ashley, but I then I want to hear from Glock. We also haven't heard from Glock in a while That's all I was gonna say to James. I wanted to hear her take on that What I was gonna say Uh, I mean, I obviously I agree with quick. I just think you guys are talking past each other I'm not really sure how how to reword it today. The other side gets our point Very anticlimactic coffee mom says sex is bimodal not binary trans women are women Holy Sorry, I don't know. Yeah, absolutely. If you'd like to give a response you can Yeah, bimodal just means more like on a scale. So What's the argument for that? Yeah, I mean that intersex people exist Yeah, so hold on again. Wait wait quick. So What intersex condition Is not classified as either male or female? No, we're talking about bimodal No, that's not the question. So it doesn't even matter what we said before. What intersex condition I literally was the question. So wait, you're not okay. We're gonna try to get out of this No, no, no, you're trying to get out of this. What intersex condition you give me any Doesn't classify as either male or female I have no idea what you're asking Exactly. Do you know what I think different types of intersex conditions? No, I was answering the question that was asked in the in the You said there's a spectrum like intersex conditions and that implies that intersex people are either not male or female When you say there's some people that are like, I mean hermaphroditic where they have both like, you know Both like what do you think that they're not biologically either male or female? No, they're xxy usually or uh, I think it's usually xxy or So in the way that in the way that biologists typically defant, sorry, typically Yeah, they consider them intersex That's not the question. What intersex condition can you give me that's not either male or female? The fact that they have both Both what? Genitalia Do you think that genitalia is how biologists or anyone determines sex? No, that's not what I'm saying. You just have a question. I answered it You're you're accusing me of no, you're just I didn't answer your question if they determine sex Yeah, I don't know what script if they determine sex by genitalia, then you'd be correct But I do you want to cite me where they determine sex by genitalia. You asked me a trait I am giving you a trait of intersex people that is not generally attributed to one or the other I know you might generally attribute it. What how do biologists how are the people? I'm sorry repeat your question though. Yes, if sex is a spectrum, can you give me an intersex condition? That's either not classified as male or female and where it's in the middle Where they're Completely sufficient both genitalia That's not how anyone that's not how anyone classifies male or female. It's not by genitalia. You're just confused Of course, we don't do that, but you're saying a trait that is not generally related to those things. No, you're just confused Okay, you want to give me one then? I mean, I don't know I absolutely answered your question fine. I don't think there's anything I could possibly have said that would have actually made it so that You actually were okay with my answer This one from holy creep one one eight nine says glock and quick on the street How do you identify a woman or a man if the person is androgynous and corrects you and says I'm a woman How do you verify? Okay, I love this question I think that not answered it beautifully.  She said if I'm walking down the street and somebody walks towards me Am I going to identify them in my brain immediately as Are female and it's going to be based off of what it's going to be based off of characteristics That are more feminine or masculine the way they're dressed Obviously if the person is dressed in a dress with you know, say it's a trans woman like like, um, who are we talking about earlier nina? Oh, Blair white Blair white, right? She walks towards me My brain is going to naturally assume that's probably somebody that wants to be Uh referred to as a she-her or a female like to me. That's how I say that now then if they correct me How do I how do I determine it?  Oh my dad I'll respect however you want me to refer to you. So that's a two-part question the first part I love the erudite's answer the second part. I find ignorant Uh the question was directed towards us, right? Yeah Yes, and just before Any thoughts before we go to you quick any thoughts from block and then we'll for sure you go to you too too quick Yeah, um, there's going to be a difference between identifying something and defining something So, uh, the way that we define gold for example is the number of protons Obviously, there's going to be fools gold So you can make inferences about the way that things look right? So I can I could be justified in looking at someone down the street and saying Oh, that's a woman. Um, but I could be incorrect. It's just an inference It's the way the way that you identify something is different than how you define it. So that's the distinction quick Yeah, I think that's basically correct. Um, actually the age example is a really good one like Everyone here I can know their age. Basically. I know they're all probably all all of my years old I know you're older than 10 years old Am I right? You asked that that was my Huh, okay. Yeah, sure. Okay. So the point is I can tell from Facial features Roughly your age, right? But from that I can't it doesn't follow that Um, looking a certain way means you're certain a certain age, right?  I can tell Uh, I have there's a very good connection between that and your primary six characteristics, right? But of course, as you know, Glock pointed out could be wrong, right? So that's just the kind of same reasoning going on, right? This one coming in from do you appreciate it? Pointless poppy says question you admitted or cue I think this is for you quick. You admitted trans people are not claiming to have different genetics Then they have Yet you imply they are lying to doctors about genetics I never said that I might I don't know but I never said that so This one from joker. I think it's pronounced. They say I'm not trans but quick is so hot Wow Is that one of your soccer cons quick? Joker also says how are you non-binary if gender isn't binary? All right, was that at me? It's it's one more complicated that I necessarily feel like I can explain here but I just don't identify with There's a lot to have a conversation about but like I don't identify with being like what is related to be generally related to female Or what is generally related to male like We're talking about like one man like those things are just like generally related to the sexual characteristics But I just don't feel like in the way that it is presented typically. I don't Think that I coincide with either one. Um, I think it's because I'm a little autistic. Um, that It's just something that I just don't feel like I am one or the other So that's where I come from when it comes from non-binary. Obviously, there's more complicated to that but It is an interesting question. I don't think I have enough time to talk about here This one coming in from norms sorry Any thoughts on This one from Richie constitution says Ashley Nina. Do you really not see the flaws in your logic? not very substantive, but Like reborn girl Max says our feminists bigoted for not supporting gender ideology. Do they have any substantial concerns about this at all? What do they mean by gender ideology? I don't know. I would my only thought is maybe they mean like lgbt related gender ideology My assumption what I what my brain kind of drew drew to first was when I made the comment earlier about how some of the, you know, right wing specifically Um, women are saying that, you know trans women are kind of encroaching on You know Women's rights and the history that it took to get to those right turf shit Yeah, that's kind of where my brain went, but I'm not a hundred percent sure but I think that This is where Nina and I would differed that and I that's why I didn't want to get into some of it earlier Because it's a different debate, but I I do see some of that some of those arguments. I can understand those I can play devil's advocate for those and I can sympathize with some of those and maybe it's a generational thing because Nina and I have quite an age gap between us So it could perhaps be the ageism thing which quick was talking about earlier I think that'd be a fun topic. Maybe sometime to to, you know Get into but Sure, I love to talk about that. But yeah, we're talking about turfs like, um, like Turf means trans exclusionary radical feminists. It's just kind of like a Bigoted form of feminism in my opinion that um, it's just like oh trans women are just trying to steal like like the way that like It's a really interesting topic to be honest if we're doing good faith Of course like where it's like Generally based off of the idea of oh the way that trans women Betray themselves as women is like, oh, they wear makeup.  It's just more of like a No, you can't come into our club type of thing. Um That's basically where I would stand on that but I would love to talk to you about that in the future I think you're saying but I do think it's deeper than that. I've actually listened in on some debate That topic and and again, I I don't know. Maybe I don't know it's interesting for sure I I can kind of agree and disagree with a lot of points there. So it'd be fun to talk about sometime Absolutely Thank you James for allowing that monologue between us for sure And this one coming in from lj says I have lost So many brain cells listening to five minutes of this debate. Wow. What a downer Very sad. It says earth is flatter than a pancake Okay Even my dog knows this That's a flatter earth or talking about losing brain cells during this Chandler says w Glock l This one coming in from Julian does politics says also w Glock w quick brown fox What is quick brown fox is that is that you quick is that one over here? Oh, wow. Yes, I've done that. Okay, then they say alpharnina. Oh, sorry They say I'm I'm black and I identify as white Uh, I think they're asking like can can they do that? I don't know. Are you? Does not answer the question Like they said that they were black. So it seems like that's what up they would identify You know face a little confusing. I could say the same thing about You know that right? I could do the exact same thing about gender, right? I didn't hear you. Sorry. You could do the same exact point that Nina's doing about with gender, right? Well, do they identify as black because it doesn't make sense if they identify as black and then they identify as white I guess right Okay I'll be honest I don't have the same hubris to think that I can make decisions for other people what they identify for Apparently you do but I don't so dodge but and now let me finish. Okay. Um, so you could say the same thing Okay, you could say the same thing with gender, right? So what does it mean for somebody To once have been a male and then transition to a female? I don't think anyone thinks that they're female. We've covered this a million times. All right. All right. First it was a man and then they need to be transitioned to a woman, right? So I can ask the same point you're saying, right? You're saying how does that make sense, right? Well, I would think that they probably always identified as a woman. They just No, weren't aware of it Okay, then this guy can say the same thing. He says look I I okay, but you do you really think that that's what a Do you really? You will have to answer this question. Okay. Look the same exact thing you said I could say about the guy, right? Oh, I I didn't know I was a white person this whole time, right? I thought I was black, but you know, it turns out I'm white now. Can you do that or no?  So I think I think that that is kind of where it's coming from And I think what in my interpretation of what Nina said there would be that if I Am a woman that I'm not going to say well, I'm a man, but I identify as a woman, right? And that's kind of it kind of goes back to the whole thing like A trans woman a true trans woman is not going to say I'm a man, but I identify as a woman So I think that's some of the confusion on that was I I don't think that's a very pedantic point, right?  No, look you just change the question of saying Uh, I was a black man or now I identify as a white man Or that's not what they said they said I am black I want you to answer You realize they identified themselves already by saying I am black Right, but I want to like They already identified themselves. You understand as black when I say you're that's pedantic, right? You know what I mean, right? I mean, sure you could make that argument if you want to Right, so I mean this is the argument you understand what they mean by the question right the question is can you transition race? Right, so Huh, is that what they said? That's the question that's asking what they're saying. Yes, that's clearly what they're saying. Yes What was the question? It was a statement and now we're all kind of oh, I thought it was can you Know what I mean, like we're all kind of interpreting here just to be fair He said yeah, I think what he said was something I am a I'm a black man And now I identify as a white man or something like that can right or something That was a can at the end, right? Is that correct? Well, I mean absolutely. I mean If they wanted to answer absolutely you can like if you're like, you know, you can transition races Okay, good. Okay. Well, I'm happy. You know, I'm mixed race dude. Of course.  All right. Let's go to the next one. Craig G says can someone confirm why anti trans people care so much Would this be an issue if the culture war is a good thing? Why can't people live and let live? I I think you would have to ask anti trans people. I don't know where they're there. Maybe they're in the comments or something I don't know that's that it's you it's you guys What what do you mean by anti trans? Obviously there's meaning behind that you could tell yeah, what do you what do you think anti trans means?  Just this is the 30th question. The neon has an answer. It's fine. I just want to hear your I mean You didn't know you're not anti trans I asked what does anti trans mean? I don't know why you're asking me what I think that you do not support trans people What do you but you are not support? What them existing like what's the question asking? Yeah, what are you asking? Yes, do I I would like to know I take anti trans to be that you don't want them to like exist or something You think quick and I know I know I answered it. Do you support trans people? Sorry, okay. What do you mean? What does that question mean? What do you mean? Do I support mean of these people? But I think I'm so If you're in this debate right now on the opposition is very clear that you don't talking about talking about something That's transphobic. That doesn't mean. Yeah. Yeah. No, because this is like the leftist thing that you guys do It's just like, okay. Do you support trans people? Just say yes or no. Just say yes or no, please. It's not very hard. I don't know what the question means This is not very uh, this isn't super. Let's see.  Okay My question was not addressed anti orphans gender dysphoria and schizo are both mental illnesses So why not affirm both? And they say and and I the national institute for help says that there's still a 42% chance That a person will take their life after they transition. So I think they're saying They're claiming we're saying that you're saying since Their question wasn't addressed earlier. They're saying gender dysphoria and schizophrenia are both mental illnesses So why affirm gender dysphoria but not schizophrenia? I'm very glad they clarified and also there's a 42% chance. I might take my own life after this Not funny I don't really know I do appreciate them affirming that so you guys we're wrong with that. Um, that they weren't trying to relate the two which they clearly were Um, I don't think that that's true necessarily But I do think there's an element of schizophrenia that it really depends on how it manifests Where if you're going okay, so think about like if they're in maybe like an institution or whatever there is Um, a world or a a level of them affirming that where they're like, okay Sure, you're not helping dog. Um, where yeah, okay. This is happening like whatever like you're able to um Cokes through their delusions to just to get like the daily Stuff done like it's it's a really complicated situation when it comes to schizophrenia because it's not something that is happening Every day. I imagine you're probably trans Every day like even if you're going to try to make that comparison like you are your identity is different than having just Obsolute mental delusions I don't think that generally people who have schizophrenia are even like related to being trans in any way That I've seen not that I've looked at it, but I don't really see the relation in that when it comes to Why would we affirm one and the other it's like, oh some people like to murder people. So why don't we let Why don't we let try like well to murder people and then like let trans people like that's kind of like what you're trying to Ask at this point like it's it's it's a very silly question Nina if I may Really quick, please uh at the very beginning. I quoted this article and it's completely relevant right now The article that I started with because I knew that it would come back with this because it's a huge topic Despite the fact that causes of transgender identity aren't known being transgender has typically been viewed as a Psychological issue. It even has its own name.  I'll talk about it later on my live stream as he explained during a harvard transgender awareness week event These people aren't crazy. It is a medical condition. So this is a huge argument right now Which is why it is and can be deemed offensive to liken the two to liken Schizophrenia with being transgender No offense to schizophrenia people either but the the whole point being is that a transgender man or woman It they're not crazy. They're not schizophrenic. They're not suffering from a mental disorder And the fact is too that there are there is scientific evidence out there and I will talk about this later on my stream Completely supporting that there's data showing that it very well starts as a fetus in the womb Actually, and there are some chemical imbalances that are taking place that we just don't know But it is important for the audience to know that that is why Nina and I both made that that I guess leap of judgment earlier when this question was brought forward And again the opposition tried to pretend like the elephant wasn't in the room when it was fucking confirmed just now This is what I am talking willful ignorance I don't know what you mean willful ignorance That's not the big topic. Maybe not with you. Sorry. You're sorry.  Someone asked they were like The super chats are going to orphans. Yeah, they are a hundred percent of super chats tonight are going to worldwide orphans So in case you just jumped into the live chat, that is true And we'll post the receipt we always post the receipt on our community tab and we're willing to send the donation receipt via email Because you want to have full transparency if anybody wants to see the actual receipt And then you can go and look at all the super chats and compare to be sure that we donated the right amount Maurice Smithville says lefties. What would y'all's dads think? Or have thought about your views on gender? oh, that's My dad's part of the most anything in fact earlier today. We had a conversation um and and then he told me that he was in my corner always that I was his girl and Basically said that matter what you do or who you are, you know That's how I feel your you and I were together from the beginning.  If I told him tomorrow, I wanted to start identifying as a guy. He'd probably feel awkward about it because he is White and in Oklahoma and and older, but I think that he would still I know that he would still love me and support me So I'm sorry that a person like you would even think of asking a question like that. I really truly am sorry because that means that You don't have that kind of love in your life. My dad would ask me about it's like I wanted to do coding That's basically it You got it. Richie constitution says I hope everyone has a great weekend. Thanks for that Short and sweet one.  No aggressive and ashley and nina Well, I love them. Wow. That's sweet. Marie Smithville says it's michael jackson black or white I Lotto, I don't know pointless poppy says We just lose somebody I guess so Glock has left the conversation to her compliment and she left It was very she was very offended. All right. This is from I'm gonna switch into the zoom screen until Glock pops back in pointless poppy says question Or q if trans people are not lying about their genetics. What is the problem with referring to gender rather than genetics and pronouns? I'm sorry, could you repeat the question james? It's very quick. It's for me, but you can repeat it. Oh, I'm sorry And I think what we're gonna do is just because we have a lot of questions that we're already way past two hours What I'll do is if you guys have a Response great, but we'll try to limit the rebuttals to each other's responses So we'll just let the question be addressed to the person who actually it's addressed to These are quick if trans people are not lying about their genetics. What is the problem with referring to gender rather than genetics in pronouns? Yeah, well, I think that was the whole debate, right? I said Because there's a need sometimes to distinguish people based on sex, right? So I went through three cases very common cases medical cases dating And sports, right? So I'm not denying that there's a there might be certain cases where you know You can use the gender-based definition. The question is is it rude or is it wrong? to use a sex-based definition sometimes I I've been saying no, there's lots of Uh reasons why that's not wrong. Yeah This one from richie constitution. You got that one. Thank you very much Holy creep 1189 says biological women get harassed online for having masculine traits because of the idea Theology that only biological females can be considered women I think that's towards me. And yeah, I mean That's like what I'd say. I don't support harassing people, but uh I don't see why it says what I'm saying I'm saying is wrong This one from Craig g says anti trans does not equal Not believing trans women are women Uh, they say why should it matter to anyone? Well, I think people's identity met. Is that for us? I My bad, they say anti trans Equals not believing trans women are women WIC and then I say why should it matter to anyone? I say based Yeah, I mean that's for you quick. Yeah, again, I think that's the whole debate we had so I I just I want to repeat myself again, but I gave a whole discussion about why there are cases why it's important, right? So this one from joker says would gender dysphoria exist if there's one gender? um Yeah, probably I would imagine people don't feel like they would fit into it Yeah, absolutely. That's a funny question. But is a good question. Yeah, it's a really good question You got it this one coming in from I try to get to Bear with me folks as the page is reloading the internet's been unusually slow This one coming in from do appreciate it Maurice Smithville says if a Japanese orphan is adopted by a white family and they they identify as white, are they white? Uh, I guess I guess the question's going back to just how are people identifying and how are they identifying to themselves and I Correct me if I'm wrong, but I I suspect the the I suspect that the indestination or the angle for these questions is it's kind of go back on the You know argument that uh, we were having with uh quick about kind of like whether or not a bird and a human can be a bird And it's something quantifiable. I respect where they're coming from but um, I do think that the topic of gender and race those those can both be a little bit of um They can be nuanced topics There there there are many layers to those things and that's a brilliant way to word it to be honest Is you know if I was this ethnicity but raised by this this ethnicity would I not kind of identify more with it? That's a really good question. I don't I don't particularly have an answer for that But again, I think it goes sorry. I'm James. I'm trying to wrap it up. I think it goes back to just respecting human beings as humans and And respecting that like hey if they want to identify as this or that the whole point is is that um Is it is it harmful? Is it harmful? Is it hurtful? Right. I think that the reason why the bird Uh analogy is harmful or hurtful and argumentative is because then you're In a sense, you're really degrading somebody who's identified really truly born As a manner of woman inherently it just goes back to show That the true core of the belief is that they are not a manner of woman Right almost to make a mockery of it to say that like oh well if a man can say he's a woman then I can say I'm a fucking cat and it's and I again Everybody give us a short version please Um, I would agree most of that but again just really quick just like as a mixed-race person I I mostly agree with but um Ashley was saying where it's just like You know, I could identify with my white side or I can identify with my Asian side And it's always been kind of like a conflict in between and it it really seems like I'm an American really so like I I more identify with the white side because It's just I don't have as much ties to like my my Asian roots Coffee mom says do you think you can correct people on their gender? I think that's for you quick um, I Think in certain contexts is certain contexts. Yeah, I think that's fair to correct people Give at least confusion this one Maurice Smithville says we got that one. Josie says I don't want an actual refund I donate to st. Jude. I broke them again error 404 explaining the schizo gender dysphoria fallacy address Okay, Aaron McKinney says we get from Ireland. Thanks for your donation to worldwide orphans Derek, uh Derek, let me just know if I'm saying it right says god bless clock and quick for doing his work And let me just check if we have any last questions Folks if you haven't yet check out our guest links in the description box This one coming in from Stay curious says Some Japanese are light enough to be considered white some are dark enough to be considered brown race is make believe Any thoughts? Yeah, I think that's You're relevant to the point we're making but I can agree Let me just double check if there are any last ones Thank you guys for your donations to worldwide orphans and most of all, thank you to our guests. It's been a true pleasure to have you Glock has left us. We don't know what happened to Glock. Let me check the email just in case Uh, I don't know what happened, but do want to say our guest What was it she got transed Maybe she was running because she was afraid of Nina and Ashley That was just a joke folks don't get wound up. All right I'm sorry, but I want to say thank you to our guest seriously They are the lifeblood of the channel and also Thank you for being here for this special charity stream. Ashley Glock Quick and Nina. It's been a true pleasure What's nice to one last thing Oh, just I want to thank god, you know for the debate and That's it I want to think same Hail to that also reminds me Folks, I want to do a really quick thing if you're looking on screen right now. The screen's a little bit scrambled That's just because Glock was running Uh, just kidding. I don't know what happened to Glock. I hope she's okay But on the bottom right of the screen folks, you can see that there are some debates that are podcast only So it says this as you can see in the thumbnail on this little You could say upcoming stream that we have on our channel It says on the thumbnail there taking that thumbnail from that stream and I put it on screen on the bottom right Because so many people were confused and they're like what I don't understand Even though the thumbnail says This is already and exclusively on our podcast a lot of people were like I don't understand like the debates happening in the future and it's like no No, it's like there are some debates that are only on the podcast And so just in case you see that on our channel We just want you to know that it's not an upcoming debate It's a debate that's already happened and it's already on the podcast because some of our debates are only available on the podcast So just in case anybody's confused about that. I'll be back in about 28 Seconds to give a quick update about upcoming channel stuff at one last. Thank you to our guests. It's been a true pleasure to have you Stick around folks. I'll be back in about 26 seconds Amazing my dear friends want to say thanks for your support I'm just gonna reload the old zoom window here just so you can see me Do you want to say folks? Seriously, we do really appreciate our guests. They are the life of the channel. I'm not just saying that They really make this fun. They make this awesome. So I really do appreciate them They are an absolute blast and I want to say folks in addition. You might be thinking like oh james like you were talking about some Uh debates are only on the podcast Yes, I will show you as I mentioned And I'll show you right now Actually, so right now you're looking at me and what I'm going to show you is on the bottom right of the screen here I'm going to go to james only mode Let me let me just like uh I'm such a rookie I'm oh, I what no, okay. Yeah, all right. I'm going to show you so I'm going to flip this over and now You can see my see my hand up here. Look right here. So right here on the bottom right of the screen This is where some people the last week not a lot But some we're just raffled is where sometimes what we do is we put we put an upcoming live stream Thumbnail on the channel at modern-day debate and the reason is because It's a way of just getting awareness out so that people know about our 100 percent ad free Podcast so in other words, yeah, there are zero ads on it. We don't make a dime On this podcast So this podcast what you can find modern-day debate is that's where you just search for on your favorite podcast right now I highly recommend pull up your favorite podcast like spotify apple podcast, whatever it is and search for modern-day debate Because there are some debates as you can see at the bottom Right at the bottom right corner of the screen right now There are some upcoming debates or it looks like an upcoming debate and it'll be like a year out And it says as you can see on the thumbnail there It says this is already and exclusively or only on our podcast and I just was So many people that there are not like I said not a ton, but there were a few uh, maybe like 10 that were like Even though the title also says that this debate is only And already done and on the podcast there were a lot of people that were like what? But it's set for a year from now and I'm like I'm like no read the title It says that the debate already happened And that it's it's coming up and so anyway that I just I was like alarmed I was like people think that we're I don't know if they're trying to think but we're trying to like Dupe them or something It's just a way for us to get the word out about the podcast 100 percent Ad free check it out so Want to appreciate want to say thanks so much jd on youtube says if y'all don't make a dime Then why put podcast only debates at all because we are trying to build the podcast and one thing that i'm encouraged by So we want to have an influence both via youtube. That's one great platform But podcast is another one Is that we want to have an influence and those are kind of being our main spheres or modes of influence in terms of our Video or audio content the debates themselves. We do have twitch too. That's a third platform But frankly youtube and podcasts are the main ways that we want to do it. So I do want to encourage you Seriously, we are excited about this podcast. Check it out if you haven't already you can pull out your sweet phone Right now.   Uh, I love youtube and I don't care about the ads. They don't bother me Maybe you've got youtube premium or an ad block or whatever it is, but you're like, ah I noticed when i'm trying to listen to a debate on my commute if I drive through a part of town Or maybe you're on a train going through, you know underground or something like a subway Is you're like, uh, well, I lose service and then i'm not getting youtube. I'm not getting the debate Well, that's why the podcast is great is because you can download it and then hey It sits there on your phone downloaded. You don't even need a connection. You don't need to use data. So that's one cool thing Other stuff First time ever tomorrow at 1 p.m. Eastern is going to be our podcast or not podcast Long day feel funny, but it's going to be our first time having our channel members Live stream. So check that out. We have many channel members right now I can see right here in the live chat right me xd and joe and on and others Thanks so much all of our cat wall. Thanks for being a member and thanks for gifting those memberships earlier tonight, too Is that I highly encourage you. Hey, uh, it's a challenge because I would do it during the work day because I know a lot of people are traveling on saturday And then it's the summer so people are doing all sorts of stuff and so I know you might not be able to make it, but if you can make it tomorrow at 1 p.m. Eastern Hold on. I've got some sort of acid reflux. I'm gonna take care of this 1 p.m. Eastern tomorrow is the channel members Meeting that link is also posted for all patreon patrons. So if you support modern day debate via patreon You will also have link. It's just in our regular posts. So highly encourage you check it out and hey Yeah, that's right. Thanks hannah anderson for the reminder in the live chat says hey You can click join right now if you click join Any level of the channel membership. So including if you just jump jump in at the $2 level really cheap. That's $2 a month And not only do you get to use these epic Modern day debate custom emoticons to call your friends in chat a soy boy But also you'll have access to this live stream tomorrow We're going to give some of the details about our upcoming Conference including some of the confirmed debates as there are some debates already confirmed We're working really far ahead on this one because we're trying to make the best Possible conference. So I'm really excited about that. Do want to check or encourage you to check that out So we're excited though. I want to say thanks for all your support Love you guys. I see you there in the old live chat Rhonda Santis. Good to see you as well as Kevin. How glad to have you here. See horse. Happy that you are here Anathema good to see you as well as App gaming. Thanks for coming by All is it ollie am I saying all right ollie glad you're here ozzy gold. Good to see you there Iron horse. Good to see you. Thank you for those showing those emoticons off Brian Searle. Good to see you. Happy that you made it As well as Joe see good to see you there in the old live chat Good to see you Hannah. I'm gonna drink some I've got to take care of this acid reflux Yes, dq. I did read out the uh 200 super chat message I'm absolutely sure Now the cool thing Is before I go which is in like eight seconds because I want to get a decent night of sleep tonight And I've got plenty of work to do this weekend is as you can see The chat revenue Is 409 dollars tonight So that means 400 dollars is going to be donated to Let me write this in Let me put the word Worldwide orphans. So that's cool. So seriously. Thank you guys for your support That's huge. I'm really excited about that. That's I think our biggest charity stream. We've ever done yet So thank you guys for that and that's one thing is we want to say a couple of things one Is that a lot of people talk about? Like oh do good things Thanks, ashley For signing up to be a member. We appreciate that There's a lot of people online talk about like, oh, yeah, like do good things and it's great to talk the talk but Who's gonna walk the walk that's one thing when we do these charity streams Is we're saying hey, we're actually taking an active step. It's an active sacrifice We're giving all of those funds to a good cause in this case You might think that your life is bad and maybe it is bad. I don't know. Maybe it's in some way Worse than being an orphan, but for a child that lost their parents It's probably like your day no matter how bad it was today Odds are good The odds probability you probably haven't had that bad of a day namely As a person who was an orphan So for these kids that lost their parents, this is a really good and important cause This is something that for us We really believe that it's not just about talking the talk And in fact, I would say when people talk the talk But don't walk the walk then I would actually say that talking the talk is a bad thing Like some people I think would rather Look good and not do anything in other words talk the talk but not walk the walk not make any actual sacrifices But they just want to talk about like oh, yeah, I'm so big on like social justice and doing good That's okay. Great. What kind of sacrifices are you yourself making or are you just asking other people to make the sacrifices? Is that our goal is we believe that YouTube deserves a better class of debate channel and we're going to give it to them We are excited about the future not only For this important cause namely that we want to help support children in need And this is like I said, it's a it's got a great charity watchdog rating You can check it out in the description box But not only that for us It's very important that we provide a neutral platform so that everybody has their case They're their chance to make their case on a level planning field. That's what we are excited about That's our vision and our values You know it. You've probably heard them before in particular one We care about being fair We want everybody to have their fair shot that people Would be able to come on to a channel and we don't have sort of you can say like after shows or videos where we say like Oh man, that debater was so bad like we don't do that Is that we just say hey, we'll let the ch