Hello. Thank you for coming. I'll get started. The previous talk was a bit delayed, I noticed, and most people gone home. We have prepared a presentation. So my name is Dys, I'm on the CLI team, and we've prepared a presentation that I think is going to be very interesting because it's not about new features and it's not about the market and other things, but it's about the user experience, which is the most important thing to a mature CLI. I will very briefly go over the CLI or a short introduction of it. And Mason already started running. So we're the official CLI of Cloud Foundry for all Cloud Foundry. So that's all vendors, all the product offerings that are Cloud Foundry based. We try to be compatible with all of them. And therefore, we received 1.8 million downloads last month. There's a lot of people using it. Let me introduce the team.  I've copied a world map from my daughter's geography book. I'm based in Sydney, Australia, where I work for Fujitsu, and right here in the middle of the world, and I have three developers, or my designer, Mike, sitting down there, and next to my anchor, Nick, they're based in San Francisco in the Pivot Office there. Then I have two more developers there. Then I have a developer sitting at the front who kind of moves back and forth between Palo Alto and San Francisco office. Then, well, more down there, the most remotest developer is sitting in the front here from SUSE. And they all pair program, because they're all in the same time zone. I'll just quickly go over some highlights of the past 12 months. There are a number of features that were implemented by the back end and that we expose. So very recently, the private Docker repositories, H3 health check, isolation segments, and already almost a year ago, the one of tasks. Then there are features that came from us doing comparisons of other CLIs to ensure that people get whoever already have a familiar workflow or experience with other commands they use, that we support that as well. So TAP completion is a pointy one. We now provide the binaries or the installers through YAM and AppGet. We improved, what I believe improved a lot, our help text. It used to be you run CF help and you get three or four pages of commands scrolling over your screen and then you have to scroll up again to find anything. So the initial pages has only the common app developer commands and all the other commands are hidden behind the flag. And as a proper open source project, we now bundle the license file on the corporate notices as the open source project should, or any project should. Then there were another request that people asked us through the GitHub issue tracker. The release from last Friday, Australian time Thursday here, was about listing outdated plugins so you don't have to go to a repo site to see if any of your plugins have been upgraded. You can now do it from the CLI and make it easier to then install an update. You used to, it would just return an error if you did it before saying, oh, it's already installed, you have to uninstall it. That's now much easier and improve a bunch of messages and other things. Then I'll talk about how we receive feedback or feature requests. So the most common one that a lot of people use is our issue tracker. It's not only for questions, but also for issues or improvement requests. Some people contact us on the Slack channel and of course, the deaf mailing list. But there's also a lot of casual conversations, especially during this summit, I've heard a few suggestions. There's local meetups, in my case, Sydney. And just people walking by the team or through other PMs. Other PMs hear things from particular users and they contact me. Then of all those features I have, I need to prioritize them. And number one priority, the things that we try to address straight away are security vulnerabilities. That is very rare, but sometimes the new GoLang version comes out with a security vulnerability that could affect us somehow. We try to upgrade and release straight away. Also, we're being very careful about regressions when we release a new thing and we've broken something. Try to fix that straight away in the next release. After that, I try to group stories into themes. As you've seen with the previous release, which was all about the plugin installation experience. So there are sometimes it is drives from other components, back-end components, where they try to push a particular feature out like isolation segments or private Docker registries or repositories.  When there's a lot of features or a lot of commands that as part of the feature set, like with the isolation segments, we will break it up. First by a minimal set that people can play around, see if we get some feedback and then later we visit the remaining commands, either implement them or we may find out that people use things a bit differently and then we do that differently. We have a lot of community or like in the issue tracker of things reported that don't really fit under one team, kind of random, just saying here's broke and that there is weird. Sometimes we regroup them all together and have a theme around just community reported issues. And then finally, low-hanging fruit, if there's a message that was unclear and it caused some ungrief and it's so easy to fix, we'll just fix that. That is my part. And then Mike will take over. Hi, everybody. Thank you for having us. I'm going to talk a little bit about how we build empathy with users, people like you. So this is one thing that we talk a lot about is this idea of a molecule. Who is the user for an idea or a feature? What problem does it solve? And what solutions can we explore to solve that problem for that person? To really understand what solution we're going to build, we need to understand the user and the problem really deeply. So we need to know what are the pain points and what are the use cases where those pain points are felt? It's a whole team effort, by the way. That's why there's three of us giving this talk today. Once we understand the user and the problem deeply and the pain points, then we explore solutions. Often an ideal will come to us as a solution and we take a step back. And then often when we do the solution exploration, we'll actually see the original solution idea come up and often maybe even fade to the background because we'll discover new ideas in our exploration and discovery. This works well when we have two tracks. So we have two tracks on the CFCLI. A lot of teams that have a dedicated designer also have this model of a delivery track and a discovery track. And the feedback loops happen as long as we're releasing frequently. So again, as we go through our journey together of creating a better CLI, new feature ideas come out and we validate those with the molecule in mind. Who's using it? What problem does it solve? And what is the best solution at this time? Cycle time. So we don't separate cycle time for a delivery track or discovery track. It's idea to release. And both tracks are involved in that process. So this is basically, if you don't know what cycle time is, it's from idea to release. I think a lot of people in the crowd probably knew that. But I like to reiterate it. We also talk about our learning velocity. So we often think about what's our velocity on the team, how quickly are we delivering stories. I like to think of our learning velocity also. So how are we executing? Are we going in the right direction quickly and sustainably? An example, recent, is the run task command. Deace just mentioned one-off tasks earlier. So I'll walk you through an example of how we did that with tasks. So first of all, we were like, who uses tasks anyway? At this point, it's an implemented feature in Cappy. We know that we need to expose it in the CLI. But for whom? And for what purpose? So we explored that. Initially, in that exploration, we'll have a lot of ideas about who the end user might be. These are some that come up. We have other conversations where there's other personas, other types of users. But this is what came up for the tasks based on just murmurs and anecdotes that we were hearing. So this is a thing that Teresa Torres came up with. You can follow her on Twitter, T-Torres. It's called the Ladder of Evidence. And it's probably one of the best articulated models of when we talk to users, what kind of questions do we ask? So at the bottom of the ladder is maybe minimal time investment, but we don't learn as much. So if we just ask people, what do you do? How do you solve this problem? And then I think there's a risk in asking people what they would do predicting future behavior, asking people to predict the future is kind of risky. I don't know how many of you know how you're going to solve a problem tomorrow or next week. It's all conjecture. So we ask what they've done in the past. The best predictor of what somebody's going to do in the future is what they've done in the past. So we ask them things like tell us a story about that time you had that problem. And as they're telling us the story, we get a kind of thermostat, a kind of measure of how painful the problem is. Better yet, ask them to show you how they do it. And even better than that is to observe them in a real life instance. So we think about the ladder of evidence quite often when we get in front of end users. Are we asking questions that give us the maximum learnings? Are we asking those questions in the right way? So for the task command we narrowed in on application developers. We talked with considered pain points and problems with other personas, but application developers seem to have the most severe pain points. One example is that, and this is from Dr. Nick's article on the Stark and Wayne blog about how to run a maybe like a database seed or database migration command. You just have to know way too much about the internals of an app on Cloud Foundry. And so this is kind of painful and it also changes depending on which build pack you're using sometimes. So that's not that great of a UX to run a simple database migration against an app. Another problem would be around operations around like who dropped off in our workflow. If it's an insurance app and somebody drops off in the sign up, maybe people in the field office would wanna know like who dropped off in the workflow and maybe we can reach out to them over the phone or over email and follow up on that lead. App developers to get that data out of the database they'd have to spin up a separate like cron job app. So now they're maintaining multiple apps just to run basic errands or tasks against applications to get simple data out of their database. Not a great experience either. So when we explore what the experience is like, so it's a CLI, words matter, what we call commands matter, what we call the flags matters and we explore that in a Google Doc. So we do basic things like change the font so it looks like a terminal font so that we can imagine what the experience might be like. And then as a team we go in, we make comments, we iterate, Google Docs have full version history so it's a really nice like artifact. You can go back in time and see what decisions that we made in the past. And we can actually print that out and put it in front of users and treat it as a prototype. So any time you've used a CLI, you'll notice that you'll have a history of all the commands that you've run and that's one way that you learn. Like how does this command work? What is in my history where that command worked well and I didn't get an error message? So when somebody looks at a printout of a potential CLI command, it's almost like they're looking at a terminal window with history and we ask does this make sense, right? We get feedback that way and we scribble in the margins or the user scribbles in the margins which is even better. So it's a very lightweight way to iterate quickly. I think a lot of people have assumed that we prototype a CLI like with JavaScript and this is not as rapid and we honestly don't learn as much. So this is how we do it currently. And now Nick is gonna talk about why refactor. Thanks, Mike. All right, so I'm gonna segue into this major initiative that we've taken on towards the end of last year. The reason why we're refactoring the code base is to incorporate all these design decisions into the CLI and to improve the end user experience. There's also some developer pain points that we've addressed with this refactor. So let's start with the end user pains first. So one of the things that came up pretty frequently was that the end user experience was very inconsistent. So depending on the what command you run in the CLI, you might get a very drastically different formatted output. Like for example, the colors could be different, your case sensitivity, the space padding. This makes it difficult to script against the CLI. Also, it makes it a lot less intuitive for end users to interpret the information that's being displayed back to you. Oops, whoa, should not hold down that button. Okay, that went really far. Okay, also we've had a lot of unactionable error messages. This is partly due to the code just bubbling up Golang library errors as well as errors from our client directly to the end user. There's no context attached to these errors. It's very difficult to discern what exactly went wrong when you ran your CLI command. And we've also had a lot of regressions due to small innocuous changes that we've made. And this is largely due to the fact that we don't have sufficient integration or unit test coverage in our existing code base. In fact, our main command, which is CF push, has only a handful of integration tests. And that's, you know how important CF push is, right? So it's a big improvement point. Also, old commands are much slower. So take this specific scenario. When you're running CF push and you're pushing up a jar archive, the CLI could potentially copy your jar archive up to three times before it actually pushes up your app bits. And imagine if you had a virus scanner on your local machine that you're pushing from, that will just totally bum out your machine because these jar archives have thousands of files. This is a very inefficient way of doing things. Also, with the existing CLI, for every API request that you're making, we create a new connection. This is very inefficient. And you could potentially DDOS your server, but if you're running a command that lists out all your service offerings. Okay, so now let's go a little more into the developer pings. On the code side, there are many, many layers and they're not cleanly separated. This makes it very difficult for developers to test in a black box setting. It makes it basically impossible to write unit tests. You're essentially writing integration tests all the time. There are a lot of patterns in the old code. We've actually noticed that this is, so the CLI is a GoLang project, but there's actually like JavaScript specific patterns in there, Ruby specific patterns. There's like callback hell here, but then another place as a code is very explicit about what it's doing. We have a repository pattern for instantiating things. There's a lot of patterns and some of them are very non-idiomatic GoLang. And this just makes it much more difficult for someone to contribute to our project as well as new developers to ramp up on our code base. There's also a lot of technical debt. I remember when I first joined the team, I spent the first couple of weeks just making sure that error messages would be specific class of error messages that we bubbled up and displayed to the end user and that took weeks. So there's a lot of technical debt. And lastly, it just makes development difficult and it makes teaching GoLang difficult as well. And Pivotal is an organization we were either learning or we're teaching, so we constantly have developers come onto the team that may or may not have experience with GoLang. And this code base makes it very difficult for them to learn Go. All right, now I'm gonna go into a little about the architecture of the refactor code. First of all, we only have three layers. It's inspired by the Model View Controller ideology. So on the top layer, we have all the display logic. In the middle layer, we have all the business logic that molds the data that we wanna display. And in the very bottom, we have the API layer which interacts with the various clients that we talk to. Like for example, the authentication client, the logging client, our main Cloud Controller client and so on and so forth. Each layer in this refactor code base is separated via interfaces, which is an idiomatic GoLang pattern. And this makes it very easy to inject dependencies as well as swap them out if you wanna test them in a unit fashion. We use this tool called counterfeiter extensively. It's used to generate test fakes. We use this consistently across our refactor code base. It's very easy.  And so all you need is a comment, as you can see there, to tell counterfeiter what to generate.  And this makes our test qualities very consistent. A little more about the architecture. So in our API layer, it's laid out like a middleware, like an onion. You can see it's doing a lot of different things and it's very easy to add in something new. So like for example, on the innermost layer, we're actually making the HTTP request and immediately outside of that, we're wrapping errors with more context. So we're returning something more meaningful to the end user. This is to address that specific pane that I mentioned earlier. And then we have logging. We have auto re-authentication. And you can add more to this as we go along, as new requirements are required. All right, so now I wanna go a little more into the actual workflow for refactoring a command. We start off by exploring the existing behaviors around the existing command. And we write characterization tests. And as you can see from these tests, it very clearly specs out what the command is doing. This is our way of documenting what the expected behavior is. Then we go about actually implementing the command in our refactor code base. And with the goal of parroting or improving the existing user experience. And this is when we add things like better error messages when we make things faster by making the backend more efficient. When we make things more consistent in terms of what we display back to the end user. And then at the very end, we update the, at the end of the coding phase, we update the characterization tests to reflect these improvements that we made. The last part of refactoring command, we actually do manual testing just to make sure, there's only so much you can test in automated fashion. We actually run the command, make sure it's doing what it's doing. We run through the happy paths, and then we get our product manager to perform acceptance on this command based upon the original requirements, which is these right here. So he hits the green button or the red button. All right, most importantly, so what's better now that we've gone, that we've started this big initiative to refactor the CLI? Well, first of all, our UI output is far more consistent. So across all the refactored commands, it follows the same output. So it's more intuitive to understand what information is being displayed back to you. Also makes it a lot easier for scripting. The error messages are much more meaningful. We actually, with that middleware layer where we're wrapping the original errors that come back from our clients, we attach on the context of what this error is actually about. So our end users can make the right adjustment. The refactored commands are also faster. We're not using this repository pattern anymore. So anyway, that's very specific implementation detail, but we're also not creating a new connection for every API request that we make. And on the developer side of things, we now have three cleanly separated layers. So it's a lot less mental overhead that you need in order to actually develop in this code base. There's very thorough test coverage, which means there's far fewer regressions. And as of now, we've only refactored a subset of all the commands that are out there, but we already have 700, more than 700 integration tests and more than 1,500 unit tests so far. And this list just keeps going. But on the developer side, the biggest thing is it's so much easier to develop in this code base that ramp up, like as a new developer that's rolling onto the CLI team, you could be developing in it within hours as opposed to within days or weeks. All right. And with that, I'm gonna go to questions. That's a really good question and there's a lot of information around it. We could probably talk about that after the talk. It's a complete separate topic on its own. You in the front row? I think Mike had best talked about this point. What do you mean by the new CLI? The refactored CLI? I don't, have you seen anything come in where people are like, hey, it's so much faster or anything like that? We've refactored only, sorry. I think we've refactored only 10 or 15 commands so far, like not so much used ones, 23. And I think we haven't heard anything because they're not used often. Just to add on to that really quick, it is faster to make improvements. So I would think the less we hear, the better in that regard, right? People are fine when things just work. We hear things when they don't work well. That's a good question though. Evan? That was a really good question. Regarding a style guide that's like a, I don't like the system record or something to point people to, we're still working on one. It's kind of a Google doc full of ideas. But that is one of the intents is that like other Cloud Foundry projects could be like, oh, what's the documented way of displaying a table? Like that kind of thing. I think right now it's like a shared understanding on this team between us like basically how a table ought to look and things like that, right? Consistency is kind of shared among us. We're working on documenting it and we'll let you know when it's done or out there. I just have a piece to add to that last question. Like what improvements have we, in terms of feedback we've heard so far? So on the developer side, like on the development floor, we've actually had quite a bit of feedback on the refactor commands. One, they run a lot faster because they're making smarter API calls in the back end. This is also because we're actually developing against the latest version of the Cloud Controller API. And also another example with, we added the user agent into the header of every request that we made and we're actually able to track what commands are being received by the Cloud Controller and this in turn allows us to collect metrics about, for example, what are my most recent, what are my most frequent commands that are run against the Cloud Controller? And it's also very useful in debugging situations where you might have seen an error on the server side and you're able to trace back to like, what was the actual CLI command that was run that generated that error? So a lot of other good feedback from the development side as well. I remember another piece of feedback that I thought you would mention during your slide where a year ago when you came on the team or like three months later, you said, when will I feel like I'm ramped up after three months? Like when do I get to the point? And then a developer here had been pairing recently on the new refactored commands with someone from the copy team and I think they paired for half a day then he was in the retro in a meeting with us while the other person just soloed by himself.  And I think there is a lot of benefit for us as we onboard more people or we'll over, we'll over, we'll in, out. Roll in? Any other questions? Rotate. So yeah, I understand your question to be who are the core users? Is that what you mean by customers? Like who are the core audience we focus on? Yeah. I think initially, I'm just speaking for myself, my first order of filter is basically does this benefit an app developer? Does this help an app developer develop apps faster for lack of a better mantra? That's the first order. The next one would be operators and in there as well is like admins and org manager type people too. Those activities are important too but the first one is does this benefit an app developer? Like Sandy Cash's talk about isolation segments, we had many conversations that were very productive about what we're not going to force an app developer to do, right? We have to offer the complexity of somebody else that the app developer can continue to be successful and efficient. More questions in the back. Where? Oh, hi. Oh, Charles. Yeah, so how do we prevent feature creep and bloat? Is that kind of am I mischaracterizing it? Yeah, that's, I'll take this really quick. I think D's might have something to add too. That was the driver behind the CF Help design change was rather than when you do CF Help like to show the whole kitchen sink to only show the commands that app developers need to know to get started and start getting their app onto the platform and managing the lifecycle of that app. And so a lot of the admin only commands then are only visible if you say like show me all the help, right? And so that was probably a result of the fact that we do add more commands. As more capabilities hit the platform, we want to expose those. And then maybe do you want to take it? Sure. Yeah, so when I became PM about almost two years ago, we were already discussing, we have like over 150 commands and it's way too big and a lot of, especially from the team I was getting, why don't we throw this away and we start over with a nice clean CLI. I mean, it's only V6 and V7 is going to get it right, right? So I've been pushing back. I don't think V7 is going to get it right either or not without spending a lot of time figuring out. But there are a lot of commands that I kind of feel like how did they get in there? Why that way? Wish they were in there. But like Mike was saying, we found this good solution of we need to clean up this help anyway because it's too long. And now even if it is, if there's so many features because we're splitting up the help and currently we have CF help hyphen A to show everything. It could be A for all. It could be A for advanced and we could have hyphen something else later. We could split it up and it doesn't really matter that it has many commands as long as you can find what you want to do. I think that's fine. It's not like the binary size is getting too big and yeah, so I think we kind of postponed that issue until we run out of abbreviations I suppose or hyphen something. Does that answer the question? Does that raise a new question or another question? Yeah, a search, so a search on the server side or like you want to search. No one has raised that before so that was definitely not in the books. Maybe I can reach out to us and we'll talk about it. Thanks, anything else? Thanks again. I want to make one more appeal. We're trying to learn more about how people also script the CLI. So I think we had something up here. There it is. Come find us on Slack and I'm personally interested in how you're scripting the CLI and how that's going for you. It's easy for us to imagine somebody typing on a keyboard every command but like what happens when you're orchestrating these commands to get some result that you want? We want to learn more about that. So reach out to us about anything really. Thanks.


Hello Bastards and Bastardettes. How are we doing?  You know, let me get it not so in here Or do I have to do them both same time I can't remember let's see So we'll keep our eyes peeled for when CSI pops up You guys let me know wasabi I need to teach you how to use a camera What do you mean teach any camera as my own heads cut off? Yeah Called headspace that you need to get There you go. This is a perfect.   We're hoping Managing technical difficulties and whatnot that we might be able to get a CSI on to chat about some stuff yeah, and this Friday evening we kind of decided that we were going to maybe sort of merge Something that's current Going on right now with some historical shit Yeah, right and we had an excellent opportunity to do that in the in the nl5 project Yes, Matt and and CSI have been up to And nl5 probably needs no introduction in the sense that it's probably like one of the most famous terms in all of cannabis Yeah, but there's a lot of legend behind it and there's a lot of misinformation behind it And so we thought for this episode maybe we could sort of like take you guys through Like how it started some of the history to it and a lot of this stuff has been chatted about in various ways and shapes and forms But we thought it might be interesting to sort of like coalesce it all into one show Yeah, and start from back then and sort of bring it into the now Modern times yeah, because you know so I mean I've done I've helped with some like 90s stuff and It makes me feel old, but you know the 90s is like 30 plus years ago now And the 80s when all this shit was happening was 40 plus years ago now So most people in cannabis have heard about nl5, but it's mostly just legends And there's a lot of misinformation and a lot of funny cuts and a lot of odd stories And so we kind of thought we'd just chat about those kind of aspects a little bit and Sort of merge the history with a little bit of the project that these guys are doing Because they tie in together They do That's kind. Yeah. I mean, where do we want to start? You know we can start with Maybe I'll start maybe we can start with just the generalization, you know, and then I'll start with some history So the reason why everybody knows what nl5 is in my opinion is because of Neville Right Neville Popularized it. He picked a selection And he used the nl5 and a bunch of famous crosses One of which was probably the most famous line of all time that nl5 hates Yes, and then other groups and Canadian seed banks and all these different things started Using the name nl5 nl5, right? Yeah, and it just sort of became part of the fabric of cannabis history Yeah, if you will Right, that's a lot misunderstood about it or whatever, but it's probably one of the most Recognizable terms in cannabis. Yeah, I think even people like my parents my mom my dad was who he was with weed But my mom had nothing to do with it She wanted nothing to do with it never learned it and even she has sort of northern lights as a strict and northern lights and northern lights Five and all that and so now what we've got going on is is I've joked on previous episodes or whatever that like when I was trying to collect a lot of old stuff it was almost impossible but now we're kind of in this wave of You know famous things from the 80s and 90s, you know or in any form they might exist in has got a resurgence Yeah of popularity and interest and people want to see what's up with you know What was once common becomes legendary? Yeah Right is really is kind of what it boils down to and so for anyone that came into the weed scene later when nl5 was already kind of a myth you know You know hopefully we can like clear up a bunch of stuff because there's a lot of There's a lot of people that are talking about the name. Yeah Right. Yeah, so When we tell this tale, let's go ahead and start with there was a man named Herbie sure and Herbie Went to a certain Hair hair salon where the northern light crew hung out and he would go to they would go to this hair salon and Commune and smoke weed and talk stuff Well, this guy named Herbie came in and he was a veteran and he um Wanted to be able to grow and make a living for himself So they set him up with some lights and some some of the original Steve Murphy Afghani seeds and he had some of his own Different hybrids he was working with mostly Colombian and Mexican. I believe that was the quote Um Yeah, and and he he was the one who selected this nl5 clone from From his own work with the Steve Murphy Afghan and the Hawaiian So, yeah, I mean probably the the way that a people can understand at the best is that there was a loose collective group of friends, you know, you know Acquaintances whatever in the Pacific Northwest area Herbie was one. There was a guy named some some people call him the Indian was another one Steve Murphy was a different one there was you know a There was a number of different characters all involved at various points and so it was a mostly Everyone has to remember that in that time in the early 80s almost everything in America was still sativa and Blends of different sativas because all the all the weed that came into America was Seated sativa weed Right. Yeah, so the core of everybody starting to breed was you got three seeds with your sativa weed lots of Lots of them and the rare shit Was indica because indica made hash hash didn't come with three seeds And so indica seeds were really hard to acquire They came from people on the hippie hashish trail people like Sam Skunkman and Neville and others made trips to Afghanistan, which in That era was extremely difficult to do Dangerous dangerous and they started bringing back small amounts of seeds So unlike sativa that was getting sativa seeds spread out all over America in every kilo that was sold Indica seeds were hard to come by. Yeah So the nl story starts with a very small handful of seeds of pure indica that came from this dude named Steve Murphy Yeah, right and then of course just like anybody The group in and the Pacific Northwest up there started making hybrids of this stuff They crossed it to itself. They crossed it to everything else. They had and the the famous numbers of nl basically You know connetate like the lower the number the more indica and the shorter it was Yeah, so the one two three four were we're You know predominantly indica based and Smaller and you start getting into five six seven eight nine ten eleven and they start getting more and more sativa now Matt's already interviewed one of the main characters in the in in this thing and he basically Stated that they took that Steve Murphy Afghan and they crossed it to every sativa. They could get their hands on So Hawaiians Mexicans, Colombians tie and you said Indians Blends of those things hybrids of those things all back and forth, right? Yeah, so the nl five they had this buddy named Herbie who got involved and Herbie had a Hawaiian, okay, and this Hawaiian was You know he crossed he got crossed to the Steve Murphy Afghan and The it got called nl five for its position and the height and the blend of sativa versus indica or whatever and They found a Fino that they really really liked so nl five initially was a seed line created within that little crew and Then Herbie gave back to the nl crew like this select Fino that he was super excited about and So the as best we can tell it's a pure afghan from Steve Murphy on the one side and A Mexican Colombian we believe on the other side That was called a Hawaiian because it was called a Hawaiian because it was grown in Hawaii But there is no indigenous Hawaiian weed Yeah, most Hawaiian weed was Mexican Colombian a blend of those two or a blend of those two with afghan, right? so You know and then as you know as the story's been told this gentleman sent Neville a Whole bunch of seeds all numbered Right, yeah, and I don't know if you have any of those catalogs handy, but Neville story is that Neville story is that he was You know he did a lot of work with them and a lot of them as We found out were a mess because they were a blend of indica's and and sativas Yeah, but in this one seed of nl five out of a bunch of indica sativa hybrids and a mess He found this plant that was what he called a pure indica throwback that showed Zero Sativa influence. Yeah, it was short. It was squat. It was leafy. It was covered in frost It didn't have a lot of smell And so he started crossing this to things and it crossed amazingly well With basically everything he threw on it. Yeah, so the legend of nl five was born because he crossed it to skunk one and He crossed it to nl. He crossed it to haze and He crossed it to nl two and he crossed it to a few other things It started showing up in poly hybrids. He made like silver pearl Yeah, and it just sort of became one of the building blocks of his genetic a genetic library And since he was one of the first dudes that had a seed bank Anything that he had that he threw into a bunch of crosses kind of went everywhere Yeah, right and all these things are winning high times, you know stuff And it's getting big glossy pictures and nl five haze was the most popular strain they sold So the legend of it just took off now there's a debate here because what what's indisputable is that he went to the states and he got the Pacific Northwest hash plant and the and the g13 through friends of Another guy who's pretty famous named Jorge Cervantes some friends of his hooked him up and he arranged for the cutting That the guys in the Pacific Northwest were growing as nl five to be shipped over Right. Yeah, and so they did this they did this clever thing where they shipped this plant over in a terrarium of other plants and they took scissors and They cut the serrations off the edges of each of the pot leaves So it didn't look like wheat that's sick. Huh? That's a sick idea. They just shaved all that off so it looked unusual and If Neville is posted back when he used to post on mr. Nice That he didn't like that one as much because it wasn't as consistent of a breeder as the one he found amongst the seed line Yeah, so he didn't use it Yeah, so right there you have this massive confusion where everybody thinks nl five is the same thing Where it is kind of the same thing, but there's a seed line that never got out There's a clone that they selected from that seed line that was popular in Washington, yeah, and there's a clone that Neville found amongst seeds they sent to him and They all got called nl five Yes, and that's where a lot of the confusion lies. Yeah, so people think they'll be like Oh, I've got the same clone that Neville used and all of his breeding, but it never left the West Coast Yeah, well no because Neville says he found it in seed. Yeah You know so there was there was two select cuttings even early And you know most people don't realize this but Neville says his was like a total Afghan throwback and The one that that the Seattle crew describes Had like two foot colas on it, right? Yeah, that's long running line green colas. Well Yes, and no yes and no if I remember if I remember it was stated that they combined Different buds to make it look like it had a massive cola for Neville in the Jesus Yeah, so that would there was some fun stuff going on. There was some shenanigans perhaps. Yes shenanigans abound There was some shenanigans. So there's a so yeah, I mean there's an aspect where I'm sorry, I'm looking down for a second because Matt didn't have his catalog handy I know I always do too, but I do I don't know if there's a bigger version of this, but if everyone wants to look Oh, yeah picture right there. That is a picture of the mother cut Taken in Amsterdam and put in the sensei seeds catalog Taken when it won a cup in 1995. It was printed in the 96 catalog That is a that is one of the few existing pictures of an actual growing Nl5 that Neville used and you can see it's short. It's squat.  Yeah The nl5 skunk one got renamed. I don't know if it was renamed Shiva Shiva skunk Yeah, I think it was renamed Shiva skunk it at sensei seeds, but it was sold the whole time Yeah, so probably it was sold from 87 or 88 all the way through You know 1999 or the early 2000s still probably to this day, but it's not the same shit.  Yeah, and then you know the guys back then that it was in the 80s And they were all scared of getting busted so they didn't really take copious notes No, and that yeah, that was several times, you know And we actually know a bit more about the nl5 then we know about a lot of the other nl numbers Because of what herbie was working with and what he said he crossed to the Steve Murphy to get that nl5 Yeah, so it's like a lot of things, you know, I mean a lot of a lot of a lot of greetings are collaborative It's a small group of friends doing one part at my garage And you do the next part of yours and this and that and everything else and who's responsible for it There might be one or two people that gets known for it But in reality, there's a whole little group that's involved Yeah, it was it was a kind of small group. Yeah Right. Yep. So, you know, and then you know when it comes to nl5 haze Neville claims that right before he left since he about 95 ish. They lost the mother of nl5 don't It died and it makes kind of sense because if you like there's a bunch of nl5 haze cuts that still are kept in In amp in America, especially in the New York region and in Amsterdam And they all are basically from 88 to 95. Yeah You know, there's not really people aren't really like, oh, I got this one in 2002 But there was a lot of fire in those seven or eight years that they were able to marry those two plants together Yeah, you know and then You know Super silver haze and stuff like that was kind of Neville's attempt to blend the three most famous Amsterdam lines together Which was nl skunk and haze and so, you know, now we have this whole thing where Everything gets different names and different nicknames and tons of shit has nl or skunk or haze blended into it Yeah, but you might not know because it doesn't have that name attached Yeah, you know No, someone said I assumed it was phenos of one to nine. No, it was different hybrids So nl one was almost pure afghan Nl2 was another afghan that they actually got like a kush type afghan from the Indian and they blended that to Steve Murphy Yeah, three and four sort of lost a time nobody has them But they were also, you know, they started increasing amounts of sativa and five through eleven were just the nl crews Crossing that afghan to different sativas. Yeah and You know the more the higher the number the taller the plant the more sativa influence. Yeah Right. Yep. That's how we know it So if you look around At some of Neville's early catalogs, you can see him playing around he uses the eight He uses the five he uses the nine. He's got the one and the two You know, all these different things and then after three or four years He decided basically that he was only gonna breed with the one the two and the one cutting of the five that he found Yeah, and so all these other hybrids kind of go away Because probably because they were mixes of extreme sativas with Indica's and they were probably a lot more of a pain in the ass For a breeder to tame. Yeah, and he did have high high as far as his keepers. He did use a Rigorous selection so he didn't keep he went through a lot of seeds Yeah, and the Indian I believe the Indian was Native American, but I can't say that for He was Native American, but he was he was part of the Pacific Northwest crew Yeah And a lot of these guys aren't aren't well known and don't want to be the well-known because in the 80s Especially in the late 80s. There was a series of rolling busts and they all got in trouble. Yeah So it was a hard time to be a cultivator You know Yeah, yeah, and all that it was there was a lot of persecution back then there was a lot of secrecy back then That's part of why they didn't keep copious notes because they didn't want them to be used against them in a court of law later on and so You know, but basically I say I think it's fair to say that the reason why everybody knows Nl5 is because of never that I think that's fair I think everybody agrees with that too because he and even like the Seattle guys will say that if they hadn't sent it to Neville it likely would have been lost. Yeah, because they went through a rolling series of busts and had issues Yeah, you know, so it so it was sold at Neville's seed bank for a number of years and Then it was sold at Sensi for a number of years after that never pure Right always a hybrid skunk one haze and L2 Silver pearl other polyhybrids blended together, but never really by itself. Yeah So there was a pure seed line of Nl5 But nobody got it. It wasn't sold. They didn't make it to out of Amsterdam It was given to like a couple people and even like even great, you know Even like some of the Seattle guys said that there was a couple of cuts that got out The eight the nine and maybe one of and maybe one of the twos from the Indian, but nothing else Yeah, so the five survived because it went to Amsterdam Basically, yeah, it's that's the only reason to survive. That's the only reason why it survived So if you listen to the Seattle crew, they had one version of Nl5 that they kept as a cutting and kind of cropped out Neville found a breeder that he kept, you know, yeah, and You know, it kind of it kind of went into it kind of went into legend You know and so You know, and so yeah, I see all kinds of people. What's up with this person's nl1 What's up with this nl5? What happened is is because it became so famous Okay, two things happened one is that in Amsterdam anytime anything gets famous people get seeds of it And they white label it. Yeah, right and they offer up their own versions of it Okay, and then on top of that when the Canadian seed companies got involved They ended up buying a bunch of stuff from Amsterdam blending it to Canadian strains and claiming That they had these things for sales purposes. Yeah, you know So you get and and they all have sort of dodgy history. Yeah when it comes to provenance What I've what I've told you so far is pretty much factually agreed to By the people that sent it to Neville and Neville.   What about in L1? Oh Denali's question. Oh I didn't see it. I mean and L1 is probably the closest thing to Steve Murphy Afghan It's it's it's got a little bit of discrepancy between the guys involved as to what exactly is in it Yeah, but you know, it's that's kind of irrelevant because what actually got sold is what got sent to Neville and Everybody should know that Neville got it in in in 84 85 and spent two or three years Seeing what he had so if you bought northern lights in 85 or 86 or even 87 from his catalog It was a fucking hodgepodge of any of the lines All blended together. Yeah, it wasn't until about 88 that It wasn't about I'm gonna turn off my light because people are bitching it wasn't about the 88 that He started coming out with nl1 nl2 and nl5. Yeah, right and You know and so and then so then these numbers get attached. I think 1989 late 88 is when nl5 Hayes got released. Yeah, and nl5 scum one and nl5 this and so nl1 nl2, you know when it went to sent see You know, they just called nl1 northern lights.  No Yeah, it's hard. I mean people ask questions. Sometimes I'll get it sometimes not it's really hard to like Pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time So like I try to chat about something and sound like, you know Fairly have a have some flow and then I read a question and I think about it and all of a sudden I'm not talking and I'm just staring at the screen. So forgive me for all that, you know, if I miss a little ADHD Yeah, I miss your question. I'm sorry. It's just the way it works So, you know, I've chatted about this a bunch before on some of the previous podcasts and a little bit more detail But that's what got it famous That that that is the story that is that is that is the story and so now Anytime anything becomes famous, you know, it's kind of like music or fashion or something like that. It gets fucking recycled Right, like it all becomes new and most people don't know about it And then all of a sudden people are like, I've got this ancient nl5 cut and I'm making beans with it I've got this this this, you know, you know, and maybe maybe Matt you could explain the boof cut or the The new cut I I don't know I've never talked to voting about that one and I keep me to ask him because people ask it a lot But I don't know the the history on that one So, I mean people, you know, and you know people asked about Bob Hemphill and you know and and and Ella and stuff like that and so people have been people, you know It's really hard when you get see when you get seeds in lines that are that are 25 30 years old plus Provenance on it becomes difficult Yeah, right, you know Apparently, you know Hemphill used to work in with the coastal seeds collective And apparently, you know, he got it through some friend of Cog use You know But nl1 was sold for, you know, what probably 20 years Yeah, for a long time for a long time. It was it was sold. It was and there was never a specific cut I mean Neville had some breeding males that he used nl1 and nl2 and Neville's thing was almost always males Yeah, they were part of his breeding males and so it wasn't like nl5 While never Neville just had one cutting that had to be kept alive Yeah, nl1 was kind of like a line. Yeah, and so any like Durbin poison or something, right? Yeah So anytime there's a line.  So it gets lost Right.   It's like Huh?  Nobody was worried about that because it was so abundant You know, I mean we had it. I can't remember who said it, but it's absolutely true You know 15 20 years ago. You bought seeds from Nirvana gypsy Nirvana And you got free skunk one seeds because he might as well because you had so many of them and it was so common It was you know, you had to give them away. Yeah, because nobody wanted to buy them. Yeah It was super abundant. And so there's a thing where everything's so common Why would anyone want it and people's tastes and change? You know people's you know taste changes and then it becomes rare and Then people want it again. Yeah, but most people in cannabis don't hold on to anything unless it's currently profitable So what once becomes we've we've seen it over and over and over and over again You know where something that was once abundant. Yeah becomes uber rare or lost a ton Like I'll say it straight up if it you know, hopefully he pops on here this evening But if it wasn't for CSI loving the urkel and breeding with it a ton Most people wouldn't have access to it. Yeah, his prolific Breeding is probably the reason why that genetic survive Yeah, and I'm not saying he's the only person that held it No, but yeah, but I used to know I mean, we're not gonna talk about purples very long here tonight But like I used to know dozens upon dozens of growers 15 years ago that ran urkel and you and then Diesel and kush gets popular and like six people held on to it.  Yeah, we've talked about that before too where I love the counterculture aspect of Americans giving weed nicknames. Yeah, but for lineage.  Yeah, you know, they want to see what's up they want to see what's up with it and You know and so now because there's interest Now all of a sudden where there's interest there's economy and people start popping up with yeah All over the place and most people probably don't know that there was two completely distinct cuts that were used One from America and one from home. Yeah, and there was a seed line But it was given out to nobody and then you see stuff where I've got an L5 pure Well, yeah, yeah, lots of that right how yeah, you know You know, I mean you can you can talk you can you can know that that never had it pure Because the guy that made it says I sent it to him pure along with the rest of it. Yeah, and that will says I got it Pure from dude. Okay, they both agree Here's when I sent it it exists, but did you share it with anybody? No So everybody has a bunch of hybrids or Canadians got it and sold their shit and then people get it And it's got a name attached and they're like You know There it is yeah You know and because we're cannabis and because all of our stories are kind of black market or underground or prohibition it gets really difficult to Sometimes it comes down to who you choose to believe Yeah, and that's a lot of the time with a lot of these strains And so some people will get like an L and they'll and the guy will be like I've had this for 30 years It never left the West Coast. It's it's this Yeah, and they're like great. It's this that's all the proof. I need Mm-hmm. Let's start breeding with it and it's this and Now it's labels all over the place and people are buying it and is it that? One thing one thing I also noticed was that during the phylos era a lot of people would get said clone that they got with dubious heritage or whatever they submit it to phylos and And by doing so say that fire phylos verified their clone is legitimate, you know Yeah, yeah, that happened that started happening a lot, too And that was a real problem because and as we learned Allegedly shit. Yeah phylos couldn't tell people any kind of plant relation with any consistency I mean the thing that maybe we should say this about CSI is that it doesn't matter what it is But CSI sent in five.  I'm five percent norwegian And you know grandpa was from germany and this guy and I'm like and I'm part african or whatever Yeah, and we were hoping that same kind of accuracy would be transferred into wheat Yeah, and I'm trying to move Caleb in Oh, we'll see Caleb click the thing and save requested join if you can If you if you see how to do that Hit the request to join button so I can add you in When you got time All right, go ahead Yeah, so I mean it it um and you know in order the other the other thing about it is is for like Talking about human genetics Is geneticists can go to like a pure norwegian or a pure japanese or a pure chinese or whatever and they can start comparing dna Yeah, and seeing these different things and they know how to sequence it if it would be amazing if dna evidence had existed in holland in the 80s and neville and And sssc and and sensei in these early groups would have been able to like put down markers of what was what Yeah, and then we could have seen their descendants because you'd have something to compare it to Yeah But that's not always case. That's not always the case.  It's too bright in here It's too bright in there. Yep. Well, we can hear your voice fine.  Oh, thank you. Thank you. So maybe I talk a lot. So maybe I'll do like an introduction Uh, not that one's needed and then I'll shut up and get out of the way So part of the reason why we did that we we decided to do this selection tonight was because it blends Uh, something that's currently going on with something that's extremely famous And uh, has a bunch of history to it So I just spent a whole bunch of time chatting about the history of it And the simple and maybe like, you know mellow way to talk about it is that Uh, in in our search of history, we started getting in contact with some of these Uh, original northern lights crew people and hearing their story And as part of that, uh, we got we got some seats Mm-hmm Matt got some seats and then Matt uh, and and Caleb here Decided to collaborate on it And and Caleb donated some space and some time and some energy and they Uh, did a bunch of stuff, uh, both growing out phenos looking within the line making hybrids and all that and so Uh, I was I was involved as much as listening to them talk about it. So I'll shut up And turn it over to them because uh, they are about to offer up some seeds of what they have going on Uh, and it might be, you know, some of the first real nl to come on the market in a while Um, so Matt and Caleb, why don't you chat about what you found and what you saw and what interested you and Dada dada.  You know and I wouldn't even be growing these seeds if matt kind of, you know, had all that dialogue with, you know, mystery man And you know, he's the one who, you know, put all that together He's the one who sourced these seeds essentially So I wouldn't be growing nothing without matt, you know, making that first step So, yeah, maybe maybe I'll throw in one more thing so everyone knows When you know, breeders like us get together. It's super common For some breeding to be a collaborative process Right, right.  I don't know And that's not my forte.  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.  Yeah, but uh, people are asking if it purpled No, no Uh-uh, not the one I got from my dad. Um, I don't I don't really recall it Even remotely having any type of purple to it at all Yeah, and and these these, you know, nl5 seeds that, you know, uh, I just ran There was very very little if any, you know actual purple to any of them. So, you know, um, but then again, uh Sometimes when you're making seed, uh You know, the purple traits kind of kind of tend to take a backseat Yeah, a lot of a lot of purple things would be halfway green, you know Or all the way green, you know When they're making seeds.  Yeah, you know, so But I think the plants have different, uh, processes when they're pregnant versus not Right, right, you know They they do they do very different things their their goal is different at the time And and I didn't even think about this, but I'm I'm feeding seeded outplants, you know, nitrogen All the way through. Yeah, I'm not trying to cut off their nitrous source, you know, early like a with a flower So yeah, the goal is is healthy mature seeds not attractive flower Mm-hmm. Exactly flower is just the carrier for the seed. So it's very different. It's a very different feeding regimen To get where you want to go.  I I I have thousands of these polaroids, you know, for, you know, the better part of a decade and now Now they're uh Not much to look at. Yeah, that's a bummer dude. That's such a bummer Right, right. It's just something you didn't know at the time Who knew that over 15 20 25 years polaroids would would fade Right.  Your camera's slowly but surely burning out, bro Well, you know, so the best thing is is I was having I was having a conversation with with our buddy pip Uh, who is going to drop some seeds soon and he might come on here and chat with matt and I but He didn't really want to show his face. So I'm definitely going to show him this csi tech Yeah, right here Because it's exactly what he's looking for This embodied voice coming out of coming out of the darkness. Isn't that how they always used to do? This is very 60 minutes in the 90s, you know, I just need I just need the voice tech. Yeah, you need that voice tech Yeah, yeah, um, tell us what you saw man. Tell us what you saw in that room. Okay, so The the seeds that riot and I have available Are basically an open pollination from 47 plants 27 females 20 males just open pollinated And uh, you know, there was there was definitely good bad in the ugly in there. Um, There was one plant that was near identical to the norm light. I grew, you know, from 94 on from my dad Um smelled like it looked extremely similar to it. You know, all of that. Um And you know, I I had uh one of my good old old buddies from, you know from that area, you know, uh You know check checking things out with me as it was progressing and he was like, yeah, that's that's just like the plant We we used to rock, you know 25 years ago. So that's wild. That's definitely a good sign. Um, There was a lot of variety in there. Um One of my favorites, of course, uh Was this one that was super frosty kind of a popcorn nugget thing Uh really good stretch. Um And it was kind of bubblegummy. I that's how I you know describe it, but I don't know. Maybe other people would, you know Just describe the smell different. Um, but it was really nice. Um, and we're definitely saving that one and then there was one that was um, I just have written down a stinky fuck, but It it's it had like 10 different smells, you know top middle bottom And I I can't describe that kind of stuff But you know, there's there's guys with noses who are like, oh, yeah, that's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah You know and list 20 different smells on something But all I know is it smelled amazing too. Um, yeah, and that one, uh, that one's definitely a keeper And then there were some other ones that You know ranged, uh You know this way and that way And you know might might end up being keepers might not definitely going to give them a couple of few Runs to decide on which ones are going to kind of make the cut for future projects, you know So that that's what I'm stoked about is that we get to see them as clones Not just seed seed moms, you know, but as clones and they get clones of every single it's it's pretty Expansive and it was a it was a cool. It was cool that and I know, you know, he he he credits me with getting the seeds and stuff But it was it was really cool to be able to to look inside CSI's mindset as he did these selections what he was looking for how he went about it How many clones he was keeping of each I learned a lot I learned a lot from dude during this so Um, he put in the work No matter what he says he put in the fucking work on this stuff. So yeah Maybe maybe I should add something in where Caleb and I chat a bunch about like, you know Phenos he's found in seed lines before That didn't survive like, you know, the the backup clone didn't survive and he lost it And he's like, well, you know, I got x amount of these seeds. I can find it again so Maybe, you know, how excited were you dude to find something that was pretty close to the spitting image of your lost plant I I was stoked on it.   Right, right Yeah, yeah, yeah You know, I'm I'm a little interested too and I know this is an nl top But are you do you want to talk about any of the pinks and purple stuff you're seeing too since that's a big project Do you have going on right now? Oh, we could touch on it just a little bit. Yeah. Yeah You know, uh Had me amped Yeah, I'm definitely gonna uh You know try to post up a little bit more on that soon Just because uh, there's there's some interesting stuff in in there. Um, and uh, yeah that one keeper I was telling you about, uh It smells better than 99 percent of weed I've come across so That's wild You know, um Definitely, it's not a purple fino pure green, you know, no purple traits to it whatsoever, but man the smell Is just so overpowering Uh, I I think it could be a a pass around the keeper as long as it's over 5 percent thc, of course. Yeah We should we should mention that some of the terpious things tend to be lower thc Right, right. There's a ratio. There's a there's a there's a ratio there that's not fully understood But a lot of times things that are extremely human perception terpy Don't tend to be the most pop there are things out there that have both But uh, a lot of them don't so we'll see and uh Have I told you much or anything about this? Uh, this pinks and perps plant Uh, I I heard it through your com, you and matt chatted about it and he called me all excited Yeah, yeah, because it's rare that you sound that excited Yeah, something that you found so he was I've never heard him overstate anything about anything Dude pops thousands of seeds. So when he tells me dude Like this is special like I mean, I think I think homie told me something like he he thinks it might be like The best fino. He's found Yeah, which for some for someone like you to say who pops Literally like thousands of seeds over a number of years and searches through them. That's really something. Oh, yeah, you know It really is I like to give to give credit to you know, uh, what what plants, you know, kind of produce these kind of things Yeah, and uh This particular plant, you know, it has mendo purple in its background But there's no purple traits to this plant at all. But mendo purple has this strong mango Trait that pops up in the ones and this thing is that mango times 100, you know It's it's just the strongest mango I've ever smelled Wow You know as you know and a bunch more fruit too but uh You know, I know it gets that mango, you know, at least, you know a portion of it from from the mendo perps so, you know Could be cool as long as I don't lose the clone God give boners Yeah, I mean one one of the things that the mendo piece certainly has is it's got pretty wide genetic diversity So there's a lot of terps in there Right, you know, and so then you throw it on something else that's also terpy and maybe wide and you can get These unusual things that have a potential to pop up I mean, that's kind of like people should know this too and maybe I should say it right now Where it's like if you cross something to like that, uh, You know to but to I don't know to deep chunk You're going to get a lot of deep chunk Right and it's and it's going to be really consistent, you know And there's certain things you throw certain things on cookies and it looks very cookie Right and so people get frustrated when you cross two very wide things because you can get a bunch of junk And you can get a bunch of this and that and it's all like unpredictable Oh, yeah, but then every once in a while amongst all that stuff There's this gem because it's so wide and unpredictable and you're like, oh, whoa What is that thing? Right, right. So sometimes the frustration and the effort pays off Because a really wide base of things to look through And maybe I should say this too is when you know when Caleb was referencing when he did the open pollination that there was some gems Some mids some junk That's 90s wheat if you have a wide genetic base you're going to get Amazing midsy junk We're all in combo and also, uh on that pinks and perps one, uh, you know, I was I was I always forget this but um I I grew out when when I I made those and found that one I was growing out 180 of those things So there was only one like it out of 180 Yeah, you know, so I wonder how it's gonna breed because it was such a outlier right Were there other other phenos that were more consistent and like popping up more often? Oh, yeah, the the the purple ones were predominant You know to find an actual green one in in this hybrid was actually the rarity, you know Most most everything was, you know, some form of light pink or lavender, you know all the way through, you know, purple to almost black Yeah, you know, but uh, yeah the the green ones were were rare You know, and and I I probably kept out of the 180 I probably kept about 20 or so of the of the darker purple ones and just the real terpier ones the, you know But they're all I don't think I I have any other, uh green ones out of the whole All all the purples and the blacks. That's a wild man Yeah, that it was so consistently that and then this one pops up Right So and so maybe I should throw this out there just real quick before we totally lose the thread on it is On some of these ones that you found that that the one that's super frosty and smells to you like bubblegum And the one that kind of reminds you strongly of your dad dad's dad's nl and such Um, you're probably planning on doing some more breeding with those select females, correct? Oh, yeah, I'm already working on that too So the the first round, of course was the open pollination and now I have a room that's a couple of few weeks into flower and that's all the keeper females And my keeper male my favorite male out of the whole bunch Which is um, I don't know. It's it's like almost a milk chocolatey smelling male and he's super pungent and He almost looks like a bigger Uh version of purple indica You know, that's that's a throwback from the same, you know, washington areas these seeds came from, you know So, you know, there's there's something to that and uh, like I've told uh Um told matt. I'm not sure if I I told you not so but uh When the the norm lights I used to have You know occasionally to throw a late nana or whatever whatever and I grew out a bunch of s1 seeds Well, I gave, you know, some of these s1s to my buddy, you know, uh clones of the s1s anyway and uh he Accidentally crossed it to train wreck Hey, and When that stuff was grown out it had that same Chocolatiness that I'm smelling in this thing, you know when grown outdoors so I don't know if it's just coincidence or Or what but you know It it could just be Same same similar genetics the power of accidents The power of accidents so maybe I should throw this in there too so if With with the these seeds that uh matt and kaleb are offering up this open pollination What that's going to give you is You know, that's going to give you your own ability to hunt through the line And it's going to be very wide You know, but you could find gems just like he found, you know, uh, you could you could absolutely perhaps find What you wouldn't know that look, you know, there there could be bubblegum smelling ones There could be this ones there could be there's a reasonably good chance that somewhere in there Those phenos pop up again And then give them x amount of months to do some more breeding And we'll get the chance to see if some of these selected females breed true for the traits that he liked Because those will be on offer too. So that's kind of like for people that don't know That's kind of like when you get old seeds or seeds that you want to preserve One of the best things to do to keep the genetic diversity of the line Is just to open pollinate everything Right and then, you know, you can set aside, you know Some seeds from selected phenos and you can keep certain phenos and start breeding with them and intentionally And seeing where it takes you so that's kind of like the that's one of the processes of Taking old seeds and trying to both preserve the line, but then take it in certain directions Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. I was I mean that's kind of how I and you've done that a number of times with like Various heirloom strains that you've come across, you know Always open pollinate Step one and then, you know, you can do whatever you want past that, you know directional this way that way or the other You know and everybody else can too as long as you know, you share the seed and all that, you know Yeah Are there any other projects you're you're super stoked about past that like any fem projects coming up that you're you're you're pumped about Oh, I got that patient zero common Patient zero is on its way Uh, I don't know that that one's gonna be interesting. Um I'm not sure how that one's gonna turn out, but you know, we'll see It could be cool Maybe you could explain for people because you have so many names, uh, because you're so prolific about things What is patient zero? Oh patient zero is uh, you know, uh Um, basically it's the just the urkel across the pakistanis the troll cush and I grew out 100 and something of those years ago and my absolute favorite plan of That one was a Was the one I named patient zero Um, and you know, it's it's kind of as long as you like a little tropinoline on your diet. It's pretty all right And so maybe I'll add that to it too where it's like a lot of modern breeding today is One-offs where people hybridize something and then just toss it out to the public Um, what he just described is what's known as like multi-stage breeding Where he made a cross he grew out a bunch of phenos He picked one that he liked and now he's doing further work With that pheno itself Probably crossing it to itself and crossing it to other Cuttings that he has in the stable that he thinks might blend well with him right um, what one of my favorites I actually have uh flowering right now is uh The mendo purple number 54 selection from you know growing out that last hundred and something of those The urkel 103 You know s1 and then you know those you know I reversed the 103 slapped on the mendo man. Those are uniform I mean as uniform as you can get really Yeah, that's cool. Interestingly, uh, the mendo is extremely dominant on it Really?  I mean, absolutely, right? When you're working with, you know, it doesn't matter what, you know, ogs, diesels, chem dogs, purple scouts, you know And then all the popular stuff based off all those.  Um But the purple punches have almost the lowest Uh levels of hermaphrodism. I've seen in any hybrids so I mean, that's that's useful that's something people look for and I think like the fact that it popped up in an og Gdp was kind of shocking, you know, right? Yeah. Yeah And you know, I was I was the I wasn't a huge fan of purple punch. I didn't even you know start growing it until a couple years ago Yeah, I kind of ignored it and was like I got playing my own oracle hybrids. I don't need another one Yeah, but uh, you know, it has traits that it put puts forward and You really can't argue with it.  I thought that's it's kind of good there Right last one to the party. That's an interesting That's an interesting aspect that people maybe should hear about is sometimes You can have an amazing cut that checks a bunch of boxes And it breeds like shit Right, it's all over the place that throws a bunch of junk And it does the quality inherent in the cut itself Doesn't seem to translate to its children very well And then other times you can take something like Purple punch that they're just talking about that has a lot of nice traits But kind of lacks high or whatever else and you don't think that much of it And then you cross it to things and its children come out incredibly amazing with a bunch of traits that you like Right, so sometimes a breeding parent can actually be kind of a crappy Crappy plant in some ways like Caleb likes a lot of the s ones of my Mendo P quite a bit more than the mama Oh, yeah You know the mama is amazing for breeding But as an actual plant itself, there's some aspects to it that are Unpredictable and and it's low thc Right, right, but some of its children and some of the things that it throws and when you breed And sometimes you might take something like purple punch that people make fun of and you breed with it And you're like wow this thing is amazing It throws all these traits consistently that are useful Right I mean like you could talk for a minute about how stable That bubblegum cut you have is And why you use it in so many different things because it throws like rot You know, it it doesn't rot very easily. It's got incredible structure It densens things up, right Right, right.  I think I was aiming for like 700 pounds or something and Then we had six inches of rain the last week of september You know first week of october and I lost 50 to 60 of that garden to mold And the only thing that came through that garden was probably less than one percent rot ratio Was that bubblegum cut?  Well, right there, you know So that outdoor queen Yeah, so some of sometimes those traits like they were just talking about like, you know Caleb does an enormous amount of breeding So for him to say that the purple punch is some of the most Non-intersex stable thing he's ever worked with is saying something Right, you know when he says that like this plant is almost immune to mold and it's the most mold resistant plant I've ever seen and it passes that trait to some progeny. That's useful information right I see a lot of people commenting on the purple punch straight and like when Breeding has changed um from where it was maybe 10 years ago on what we would select for potency-wise What we wouldn't use what we would use certain one of us, you know Purple punch all I'd ever heard about was how weak it was. So I just never I never got into it.  Yeah, I have other friends that smoke a sativa and they relax Right, that would be me. So yeah, so cannabis cannabis and individual strains Uh, don't think that the way it affects you is the way it affects everyone There's a range there That's why I like keeping so many different, you know cultivars because You know, I I like a whole spectrum of different things and I know other people too, you know Like different things. So you can't always breed for yourself Definitely not Does the does the purple punch reverse Uh, yeah, yeah reverse is fine Interesting. So it reverses easily but won't ever throw intersect traits Yeah, yeah, that's kind of odd in itself Right the that's what I got growing now. I don't think I found a single ball Or or or nanner on any of them Yeah, which was almost unheard of. Oh, yeah. Yeah You're usually going to get at least 10 to 20 percent You know and I I say 10 to 20 percent and that could just be one ball down low or one, you know Late nanner or something but there's always going to be like 10 to 20 percent Yeah And then there's certain things that Herm But won't reverse Right, right, you know, I mean we've talked before about we're not going to get into it too much But you know, they uh, you know the old sour cuts are famous for not reversing Oh, yeah Or getting a handful of seed But they're also famous for the wrong conditions and they they throw nanners that can see that create seed in your room For flower production.  So there the whole room was completely seeded So it didn't have any risk of pollinating anything but you know, it still felt the need to you know Throw out just a ton of balls Like what are you doing with those? You know I didn't see any pollen off of them. But you know Yeah Yeah, I mean the you know the um the the what I consider to be the original but you know, it's the one I got the chem de cut Is pretty famous for throwing a bunch of nanners at week three four Uh, but they're sterile You know, they don't really they don't really uh, you know They don't they don't really make seed Yeah, and that chem de or just chem de's in general it seems Yeah, they they throw bananas like they're going out of style. Yeah And it's it's a trait that goes there And so I've had any number of friends or helpers or whatever on a light depth greenhouse come to me panicked Because half the greenhouse has bananas popping out all over And I'm like, oh calm down calm down. It's it's the d we're gonna be fine You know and we're fine, you know, you don't even find a bean Yeah, but you know you do that with cherry pie or something and you have beans everywhere right So certain things certain things are different different risky, you know, there's different levels of risk Yeah, yeah, yeah, where so I mean, maybe we should maybe we should chat about this Maybe we should reel it back in for a second Part of the reason why we did this nl5 chat Both starting in the 80s and going through some of the history And then bringing Caleb on was to talk about the project that that him and matt have going And uh, they they just dropped the seeds, I believe Yes, or we're about to or just did no, no, they're dropped Caleb's Caleb site is humble csi.com correct Caleb. Yeah That you could buy them on there or all right seed code.com Yeah, and so it's a it's a riot and uh and Caleb collab And it's a big open pollination of genetics from One of the people that was intimately involved in the old nl crew So the the provenance is excellent as far as like who it comes from And you know, but then on top of that too the proof is in the pudding So, you know, um, it uh It's a chance for people to maybe hunt around if you have if you're a little adventurous and look through something old And something famous You know And you know, Caleb found a few things in it that he was super excited about and so hopefully you you guys will too And one of the ways that we're gonna make sure That not everything is skittles. Oh gee cookie Cushments whatever Is by people taking effort and reviving some of these old things and making fresh bats of batches of seed that are more viable And then getting them into people's hands So the gene pool stays wider Yeah, yeah, so not only is it a cool old project is something that's extremely famous Uh, and there's potential in it Um, but you can better believe that most modern breeding With a few exceptions is the same 30 or 40 cuts blended in a bunch of different ways over the last 10 years And this harkens back to a much older time So there's a possibility there that when you outcross things to something that aren't like each other If you take these nl 5's and you start throwing it on different stuff you have You might get some unusual stuff.  Sorry guys No, it's like because that's because that's the thing is a lot of breeders say that like Sometimes, you know crossing two very distinct things together Is where you really get quality to pop Yeah You know and you're certainly introducing something older in the gene pool that was very common 20 30 years ago But now is many generations interbred And so uh by these guys doing this project where it's kind of getting thrown out there again Where it can get bred into a lot of modern stuff And people get to see what happens. So, you know, you'll you'll get more opportunities to see what csi is doing with the work Uh in future breeding projects that seem like they're already engaged Um, and hopefully people are going to buy a bunch of this stuff and start posting and trying them out themselves And it's one of the ways you can keep cannabis history alive Right and making the birds with the stuff. Yeah. Yeah You know mixing it with modern things and seeing what happens right, right So what what do you guys think would be the best?  Does it look like 90s weed? Like lime green with bright orange hairs and it just has that like nl type of like like look I was gonna say hydro, but uh, Caleb is purely organic So I don't want to insult him or just that like that like big sack of hydro nl that you would get You know, it's just super frosty and stuff like that and so You know, but it might give it some stretch and some vigor and it might kind of like and that's kind of like what I One of the things that I get interested about is crossing Two different things that you think have similar parentage behind them And then you see if you get some throwbacks Because both parents have it Yeah, I I do have the dog shit in uh my my latest round So, you know, but it's it's getting crossed to that that chocolatey nl five male and honestly, uh, I think there were better There were males that Kind of looked more similar to dog shit But uh You know, I I didn't use them personally for this round um Because I liked that, you know, particular, you know, chocolatey one and if I was going to throw out one more recommendation and combine the old with the new um, one of neville's most classic combinations was uh nl five and skunk and I kind of view uh, the diesel family as What we have is surviving modern skunk Not that there's not cheese and a couple other things like that, but I kind of view like sours as american skunk Right or very very skunkish. So it would be kind of cool to see Like what we have now is skunk and what we have now is nl blended back together right um Because that was one of the most classic best selling and they combine super well Yeah, um, I definitely have cheese in there too. So, you know You know at least skunk one. Are you talking skunk one or skunk? I mean, I that's Cheese is fine. That's obviously pure skunk one that's really old. I was just thinking of certain diesels just because I consider I consider certain diesels Modern that to me that even though it doesn't have the name I consider a diesel to be like a skunk skunk skunkoid type plant Right, right. It's tall. It's rangy. You know, it's it's got that kind of skunk type growth to it It's got these very I basically think of like gas and diesel as it's not like roadkill But it is on that skunk spectrum It's like different angles of the same turps Yeah, you know, it's kind of how I see it. So you know um But yeah, and then the other thing too is that you know, you know, you cross it to things you hope Are gonna cross well and then you cross it to some things that are just random and sometimes those random ones end up being The best ones because you really don't know and you really don't know what genes are going to pop Right, right, and you really don't know what recessives are in there True true right like so to take it back to humans Unless both parents have the gene you can't have kids with blue eyes or green eyes You know, you if if one parent has the recessive the other parent has the dominant it won't combine Right blonde hair is the same way both parents have to have the blonde hair gene or the red hair gene Or it won't pop And so sometimes if you take two things that you think might have similar genes You might get some recessives that pop and all of a sudden something unusual comes out You know Yeah, yeah, so well, I promise to Not hold Caleb too long.  Oh, I I think I'm good.  We wanted to chat about the history We wanted to clear up some misconceptions And we wanted people to hear About some of the specifics of what was available how it was made what you what we saw in it Um, and let people go from there So as always everyone, thank you for giving us part of your Friday night You know, Caleb, where do you where where can people find your seeds again? Uh, humblecsi.com. There you go. Yeah humblecsi.com. We'll grab the nl5. Please A go experience it make sure you let me know about yours too Yeah, I got it too, but but you know Support the man Yeah, so, you know, both both both guys have it you can get them both off each of their individual websites Um, they were communicating a bunch during the during the grow They were talking about what he was seeing sharing pictures and just you know and all that and so You know, it's how a lot of it's a lot of passion projects get made today is with People that have similar interests collaborating and making it work So support it if you can if you you know, it would be great And it would spread out some old genetics and it would keep them alive And you could do your little part to make sure that the gene pool stays wider And hopefully find some fire Yeah, so You know everybody enjoy their Friday night Uh as always there's a million questions. We didn't get to Um, but you can always hit us up on our discord Matt we're on our patreons Matt and I chat up there a whole bunch. We're pretty responsive to questions and all that and so You know every every friday night. We'll try to bring you something new and pertinent and interesting and bring on various friends We have uh and all that and uh kind of just push the history and the info forward And at the very least you get to see not so naked. All right. Thanks everyone Enjoy everyone. You have a great night Good night