So I have planned 40 minutes of ice breaker, 3 minutes of talk, and 2 minutes of Q&A. That should, I think, balance it out well and make sure we wrap up the day on a high note over there. So thanks for coming here. A lot of great options in the day. I hope you are also finding value from the conference, what is going on. But since you are here, it's good to start with a reality check and understand why are you here. It's good to set the right expectations. So can you say why are you in this particular talk? What are you looking to get out of it? Anyone? Yeah? Okay. Other uses? Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So just to summarize what Sudipta said is what should be a good testing strategy for native apps, Android and iOS, which is different from web, essentially, right? Yes, we'll definitely be talking about that. Any other expectations? Tools, techniques for doing testing. So we'll not really be talking about the specifics of the tool, but we'll be focusing more on the strategy side and how some, I'll just keep mentioning what are different tools along the ways that can help you in doing this, because this is not going to be a tool-focused conversation. This is more of a strategic planning side of things, right? How can you approach that? But yes, we'll cover some aspects of the tooling side. Anything else? You're making it easy for me, so that's good for me in a way. If no other expectation, then I can push for my agenda along there. Okay. So cool. Let's get started. And by all means, if any questions along the way, please do stop me and let's talk about it. If it is a little bit off track of what the core content is going to be, then I'll ask you to let's have a follow-up conversation around that. But don't hold on to your questions as they come up, because it all keeps building up along the way anyway. Quick 10-second introduction about myself. I'm Anand Bagmar. I've been in the software quality space since about 20 years now. I've worked in various different product and services organizations, various different domains, worked across the globe from different countries as well. So I've had the opportunity to make a lot of mistakes and learn from them. Hopefully I've done some good as well out of that. And you can follow me on Twitter. Anand is Bagmar Anand. And it will be great to keep in contact and keep the conversation going on. Okay. So let's focus on why we are really here, right? Why is there a focus on testing and release strategy from a native app perspective? Already there was a question. What is really the difference? And let's try and understand this more. And these are the first few minutes of this particular conversation. It could be 5, 10 minutes, depends on how really interesting you make this. But I want you to help drive this particular discussion. And that's when I can share what difference might be there on top of that from my experience, which can hopefully add some value to why I am here. Okay. So let's quickly talk about what are the similarities between web and native app testing? Anyone? Both of them might be talking to the same backend services. Yes. That's one. Sorry? Similar kind of UI. Maybe may not be because native apps, smaller form factors, web apps is different. Mobile web might be similar to this. But maybe I can rephrase what you said. The functionality is similar from the product, right? The way you would interact with that functionality might be dependent on web versus mobile web versus native. So that might be one aspect of difference. Anything else? No? Okay. Just try it. What are the similarities are there? Sorry? Yeah. Yeah. Hold on to the difference. That's the next slide. Have you seen the slides? No. So hold on to that thought. We'll be talking about differences as well. Let's talk about the similarities first. What else would be similar? Yeah. So large part would always remain similar. So functionality, aspects of NFRs potentially, right? Performance, security, the browser OS combinations, for example, right? Or the device OS combinations. That complexity is again similar. Yes, you'll have to address it in slightly different ways. How do you actually interact with it? But that again is similar challenges on both sides in that sense. Okay? Anything else? From a testing perspective, planning perspective, what else would be similar? So user experience, right? It's not just functionality. User experience testing and validation also is going to be similar. You have to do that in both cases. Web, mobile web as well as native apps as well. Okay? So at a high level, I think we understand what these really are. What would be the differences? I know you had a head start. So let's start with what you think. The way you do your security testing would be different. Can you explain more on that? Okay. Okay, so data security from a native app perspective, because it's on your device versus for web based, maybe on the server side, the content is there. So you need different strategies for that, right? Okay, that's one. What else? Native features which the app uses and how, from performance perspective specifically, that might be a difference. How would it be difference from a browser as well? Because that's in a way a light client, right? That would also have a lot of functionality on the client side. So is that really a difference or it's similar? Maybe it's in a gray area. It can go in a different context, right? Orientation, that becomes a big difference for sure. In a web based, you're looking at in a specific form. Mobile web maybe, yes, depending on the responsive nature of What the product is designed to do, that might be different. Okay? So the other differences that would be there is the devices itself, right? The capabilities of the device might govern a lot of how the application is going to function and what type of interactions would be happening. In case of a web or mobile web, it is just a browser. Inside a browser you are doing that and other than the resolution of screen size, the dependency on the actual device OS combination might be very minimal in that sense, right? So that is one aspect of differentiation between web and native apps. We have to consider more from a device-specific perspective, whether it could be resolutions, form factors, the hardware capabilities of the devices itself, what is supported, not supported, memory, CPU and other aspects that are there. Also the OS dependencies, from a web perspective or a mobile web perspective, we are really talking about a browser and maybe the browser vendor has provided different flavors of the browser based on different OS that it needs to support on, right? The majority of the implementation would be similar, but the packaging and certain OS-based dependencies might be different. But other than that, that is not really a problem from a web perspective. However, from a native app perspective, the OS can be very fragmented. Samsung uses stock OS and customizes it heavily and they have different levels of customizations, maybe for various different reasons, for different types of devices. So you take three different types of Samsung devices, low and mid-range and high-end, and the OS capabilities might be different, even though they are at the same OS level, per se, what pre-installed software might be there or not. So there are a lot of different challenges. Likewise, each hardware manufacturer might either use stock or a modified version of the OS, and again, the hardware dependencies creates many more complexities over there. So these are the differences from a web app versus a native app testing at a high level. Now this is from a testing perspective we are talking about what things to keep in mind. What about from a release approach itself? I have finished my development and testing. I have done whatever due diligence is required in terms of am I building the right product and is it correctly built right? I've done that. But release itself is a different aspect. So what are the similar approaches or other similarities between a web and native app releases? Push release, what do you mean by that? Is that similar or difference? It's similar. So I actually think that might be a little different thing. But let's hold on to that thought. Let's explore it further. In some cases, yes, it's a matter of doing a build and then doing a deployment. But the deployment strategy itself is very different. What else would be similar? The complete pipeline is going to look very similar for all the different platforms. The CI pipeline and all the steps if it's not completely automated as well. That would be in very similar lines from a web or mobile perspective. What all things you would need to validate before you say it's ready? All the checks. It may be static checks or maybe your test cases, your UI test cases. Everything is going to be very similar. Absolutely. I would say similar, not same because of course there's different stacks but you're absolutely spot on. Correct. So the whole dev QA lifecycle steps at a high level would be very similar to web versus apps. There are other similar aspects when you really think about what you do from a release perspective. Regardless how I have released, you would be doing a sanity on the app after it is released, whether it's a web or a native app. After release, I'm a user able to get it and use it correctly. You would still be able to have the same kind of experimentation that you would want in your product, A, B testing or any other form of validations or experiments you want to run would be on similar lines from web or native perspective as well. It's not that I cannot do this in native or I can do it only native, nothing else. There would be certain restrictions probably, but that thought process is still the same. The configuration is required, right? Managing environments, pre-prod versus prod, likewise for native apps as well. I've built it. I'm pointing it to an internal set of deployments or data what is required for the app to be functional and to be tested. Likewise for web also, we do the same. So from a release perspective, we again think about these aspects are going to be in a similar line. Okay? But now what are the differences when it comes to doing the release for these? Distribution. And that actually goes down to your point about how it's pushed out, right? And that is a very, very big difference in my opinion because in a web or in APIs or on server side changes, even if you have messed it up bad for whatever reason, you can immediately apply a hot fix, push it out. The next time the user comes to your product, we'll get the updated fix. Of course, there'll be certain criteria, cash, those kind of things, right? But other than that, you will be able, the user will be able to get the latest functionality on-demand whenever you really want it. However, for native apps, you have to create a build. You can automate this whole process as well, but you have to create a build. You have to upload it to a server, play store or app store, assuming you're distributing using play store or app store. If you have your own distribution mechanism, maybe in case of B2B applications, I don't need to be in play store or app store, right? They come to my website or they know how to get my app and they'll be able to use it. But there's still a thought process of how you want it to be distributed. And that is very different from a web perspective, which means we have to understand it in more detail otherwise we might miss out on a lot of cases that happen over here, a lot of problems that can happen here, okay? We could be doing, from app's perspective also, you can say that, no, it doesn't really matter, right? Like a web, we can ensure that users are always on the latest version. But how often do you get a pop-up on the app and say, there's an update, I want to update it? The first thing I do, you know, call me old-fashioned, but the first thing I do when I get a new phone or if I reset my phone, I go to my play store settings and say, do not auto-update the apps automatically. I want to be notified or better yet, I will go and see whenever I want, if there are any updates in the apps that I have and if I want to update them or not. Because I know some types of apps, the main updates that they have is how they're tracking you better or not or what kind of ads they want to push into you. So news apps, for example. News content, okay, I don't have the better user experience, but I am able to read. I don't need better tracking of what I am reading or not over there. So it's my control, right? For some other types of apps, I would just go and update it directly. But the point over here is, as a producer of the app, you can say that I want to force my users to upgrade and if they don't upgrade, they will not be able to use it. That's a product strategy. Depending on the context of the product, you might want to take that or not. In most cases, what you would have is soft-upgrade notifications, right? There's an update. Do you want to update it? And maybe if you are way behind in the version history, then you might say, no, you have to update now, otherwise you cannot use it because there's some critical change that has happened, maybe on the backend system side, right, that now the app has become incompatible with them. So the choice is really in the user's hand at that point, though. Do I want to upgrade or I don't like this push attitude? Let me just uninstall it. I'll find some other alternative. And that makes a very big difference in your release strategy that you need to think about your product. How are you really going to test it, ensure everything is fine, and push out that update to the user. And if they use it, it is fine. But if they use it and there is a problem, there is a risk that you might lose that user forever. This app crashed when I tried to do a basic thing. It's a crappy app. Let me just uninstall it. How many times would you go and see if there's an update or try it again? Depends on your mood of the moment as well at that point, right? There's also another aspect from an app release perspective which sort of makes it a little bit easier, and that's a beta release approach. In App Store as well as Play Store, you have options of doing beta releases, and there are rollout strategies as well that can be applied. In some cases, you have more control. In other cases, you don't have as much control. We'll talk in more detail about that later. But that is another difference. On the website, either you can just release to all your servers immediately, or you can use blue-green type of deployments and manage the risk in a better way because your cluster might be so big and you don't want to have a very big impact. You want to see how that release is going. If I have 10 servers to be updated or released on, let me do that on one, validate on one, and if that one is working fine, then I'll just update all the rest as well. Various different strategies can be done. The big difference, again, I want to highlight over here, is from a CI CD perspective, web becomes much more easier to keep on making that small incremental one-line story changes that might be there and do a release to production, web or APIs. For apps, you have to think about the app fragmentation that happens for every release that you do, and how are you really going to control that and manage that as well. So there are a lot of things that you need to keep in mind over here. There's another very interesting concept that has come out. I have not really used it as much, but there is a feature in Play Store now where there's something like an Instant Apps feature. Probably you have to build your product in a slightly different way as well, but what it means is it's almost like a web-like experience, more native interactions possible as part of it. You don't have to install an APK, but you can interact with the product without having to install it. And that's, again, a very interesting approach to investigate to see for your product, does it make sense or not, if it's going to add value or not. Especially very valuable if the APK is a large APK and you want users to quickly see what the product is before saying, yes, they should install it or not, a very good capability. So when it comes to CI CD side, as you correctly said, the stages in your pipelines really remain the same, the tool sets required, there will be different quirks in that whole pipeline to handle web versus native. But really, it all looks the same. There shouldn't be any other difference in that. You can still be doing continuous integration, continuous deployment to your internal environments and keep the last mile as a single-click deployment to production, whatever. Both are very feasible. Of course, the kind of efforts required from a native perspective will be slightly more for the differences that we've spoken about. So, so far, we have looked at similarities and differences in web and native apps from a testing and release perspective. Let's see how it really comes together in form of an example and how we can apply it. So let's take an example. A random screenshot which I found from Google which can be reused. I think this is a Netflix screenshot that was there, right? But the case study which I want to walk you through is for this type of a product, a media-based app, a streaming app, essentially. In this case, it's a video streaming app, not a music app. So that has slightly different complexity than just an audio streaming app, okay? Now, we've spoken a lot about these differences and similarities. Here's a question to make sure you are still not sleeping. How would you test and release such an app? Has anyone worked on such type of products before? Any dynamic data type of product? Okay, one hand. Sorry, she's just passing the mic, yeah. So in this sort of scenarios, right, you basically release a client that can handle multiple DLC versions and each DLC version has... What is the DLC version, sorry? Downloadable content. So each DLC version has its own episodes, new series or something like that and you need to develop your client so that it can handle multiple DLC versions. So one update sent to the client and the follow-up updates when a series is released and a new video is released is in a form of a DLC which, by this approach, the user doesn't need to reinstall or update a client, but everything is done in the backend. Okay, so just to summarize in my own words and correct me if I got it right, okay? So basically what he's talking about is content versioning and there's different types of content or updates to contents, new episodes or sequels of movies, whatever that might be the case, right? As new releases come up or new versions of content come up, you should be able to push that content into the client's side and ensure it is still playable and viewable by them, right? That is one form of testing that is required because the content is dynamic. Of course, the content is not going to be embedded inside your app, right? The presentation logic is in the app. The data being served is going to be real-time, whether it's on data or Wi-Fi that is there. So that is one aspect of how you would test this. What else would you test on this type of product? Or what do you think will be the challenges of testing this type of product? Please take the mic from me. I just wanted to understand how to automate all these things, like automation... You ask a question for a question. We'll hold on to that question right now. We'll get to that aspect. The solutions we'll get into that side. Rahul, Adam. From UI automation perspective, the identifier's ID is like a basic mechanism we use. In such kind of products, the IDs themselves are dynamic, so you can't build on that relationship. So the challenge here of what Rahul is saying is that identifying a specific locator from an automation perspective might be a challenge. I actually don't think that is a challenge because if your product is structured in the right way, you can have IDs and dynamic locators also over there, dynamic content over there as part of a metadata, which you can query from an automation perspective and do that. So it is feasible. It's a challenge, but it is feasible. It needs more dev cooperation and collaboration to make it happen. Okay, so let's go through any other thoughts. Okay, so let me paint some reality over here which hopefully gives you more challenges when it comes to this type of product, right? User base. If you take Netflix, how many millions of users? Is it in tens or hundreds of millions users worldwide? Huge challenge, right? When it comes to this type of user base and the regions that are there, when it comes to the content side, what he spoke about, what does that mean? A content may or may not be available in certain regions or not because of the licensing issues. How do you test that? That becomes a very big challenge, right? It's not just if a content can be played, but the license restrictions is a very important aspect. Otherwise, Netflix can get sued for it or any other product, streaming product can get sued for it. It's a very big aspect to it, okay? The unique device OS combinations. Now, for this case study, I had considered a different app that I was using. It was supported in just four or five regions in Southeast Asia. But in those four or five regions, there were more than 13,000 unique OS device combinations that a user base was using. Analytics data told us that. It could be old version, slightly upgraded version, Android 444, 445, whatever those versions might be. But unique combinations, more than 13,000 of them. Okay, 13,000.001 if you add Apple also to it, right? The number of combinations is going to be different, but that complexity still exists, okay? There are certain non-negotiable criteria from a release perspective for these type of products. Now, some of these, the obvious ones, functionality has to work. Functionality could be whether I'm browsing or I'm viewing the content or not, right? That has to work. Functionality, whether it's downloaded, downloaded video should play or not. If it's a freemium model product, if ads are going to be served, then are ads coming correctly or not? These are all part of functional aspects, okay? The releases, we want to be doing frequent releases. I cannot wait two months to get a new feature out because my users always want to keep on getting new features. It might be better ways of finding content or anything else, but these are in the presentation layer, the experience layer, right? So we need to be thinking about an app which can be released often enough at the same time. So frequency is one. At the same time, in this case, there are blackout periods that we had the constraints of. Why? Because for all of these regions where our users were or where our product was supported, a product was a freemium-based product. So users can use it for free, but they will get ads served in it or they can subscribe and they'll have an ad-free experience. But based on patterns that we observed from users and which was different for each region, we found out for one of the countries in Southeast Asia, which was our largest user base, the pattern that we found from our users was they are people who are constantly on the road. They are working employees, working people, right? They get their salary towards the end of the month. After paying the basic bills or whatever else is there, because they're spending so much time on the road, that's where they are using our product most, they will also renew their monthly subscription when they get their paycheck, which means we cannot have any disruption in the app functionality, whether front-end or back-end, during the time when we'll be getting money. Such an important criteria which gets missed out and the challenges for each region, this blackout date might be a different rolling window. Now, if you put this different rolling window from a release perspective, how do you make frequent releases? Where can you experiment and say, okay, it's okay if we fail, we can push out another release over here? Very big challenge. The other aspect over here from blackout date or release perspective, this is again how Play Store App Store works. You upload apps in Play Store or App Store, not for one region or the other. Or rather, you don't have different versions of the app for different regions. It is one app you are uploading and you are saying in which regions it is applicable or not, and if it is not applicable, when you try to install it, Play Store or App Store will say, sorry, this app is not available in your region. So it's one app and you are telling it which regions it is applicable to. So I cannot say in country one, I'm going to release it at this point in time, then I'll upload another app for another country in a different date or enable it at a different time. No, it doesn't work like that. That's another big challenge. Analytics is as important in many cases it is more important than the core functional features. It's okay if my search does not work very well and from the feed, maybe users will be able to play the videos. But if analytics does not work, it's a premium-based product, then I am restricted by what Facebook or Google or any other ad integrator that I'm working with to tell me how many ads were served and accordingly, either I have to pay them or they will pay me based on whatever that transaction is. There is no way for me to correlate that from a financial perspective. What should have been happening? At the same time, I have no way of understanding my user behavior if any of the analytics breaks. A core feature, how many videos were played and did they play it end-to-end to say this type of content was valuable for the users. If analytics breaks down, I have no way to figure that out. So analytics in such type of products is more important or as important as your core functionality as well. And then there are, of course, partners and integrations that happen with payment gateways that might be standard. But there might be things like if I have got a Vodafone or an Airtel prepaid connection and I'm renewing a pack, if I buy a 999 pack, I'll get three months of this subscription free. And it's done automatically. When I recharge that, I automatically get that associated. So how do you ensure that all of such integrations from one app across regions work fine? So these are the non-negotiable release criteria. And the tipping point what happens is because these are start-ups of smaller organizations, Netflix is completely different ballgame. But if any delay comes out or inefficient testing comes out from this quality, rather not just testing, it's a big problem because any of these non-negotiables does not work, it's health-breaking lose. Any automation missing, product does not care or business stakeholders don't care how much automation was done or not. They care about is it done and I want it to be done fast. They don't realize it can be done fast first time, second time it is going to slow down, third time it will go slow down more. And that's where automation is a key over here. Okay? So limited test automation becomes a challenge. The business metrics, the analytics testing becomes a very big challenge again. How do you really do that? And if anything breaks, how do we manage that chaos? Internal chaos is about fixing it quickly or being able to fix it quickly. It's about facing the wrath of the stakeholders, your own stakeholders, that becomes a challenge over here. Okay? And if any issues you find during the blackout periods, how do you really manage that? So with this context I hope you're able to relate to the challenges, right? There will be different type of challenges for different type of products. But I chose to take this example because it amplifies certain of these challenges in a better fashion. Okay? So what is the testing approach and the release approach that I took for this particular product? And I'll also share certain anti-patterns that we did along the way. It was a conscious choice for choosing those because of the limitations we went through. Okay? So first is about establishing a structured way of working. We cannot be working in a chaotic fashion. We set up relevant agile extreme programming practices for different roles on the team for the way we do it brings out. We enforce definition of done. I've highlighted enforced. Enforcement is not coming from agile. It's because people are doing things in a very chaotic ad hoc fashion. The first step to get them on the right path is by starting to explain and enforcing and then slowly steadily taking back that enforcement route and letting them become agile and doing the right thing. But enforcement was essential at that point in time to get them started on the right path. No ad hoc implementation. Product or country managers, they knew the development team directly. We have a plan what the next release is going to be, but someone is going to send a Skype message or a phone call to their favorite developer. Can you add this one feature? And then suddenly during release time, okay, why is this coming up or has this been tested? No one even knows why that came up in the plan. So we pulled the plug over there. Country managers or stakeholders, how we are going to prioritize requirements and bring it into the process. They seem very obvious ones, but believe me, I've seen it fail more often than not. Okay? The other aspect is we have to find ways how can we build a quality product inside out instead of testing for what the quality is outside in. So preventing defects versus finding defects. How can we establish that? So we started doing activities like feature kickoff, product team telling everyone involved from a dev perspective, what is expected out of it. These are the business requirements. Next, story kickoffs. How does each individual user story affect that overall requirement and do a kickoff for that because you know what the scope is and you focus on that aspect only? And that again gets everyone in sync when the actual implementation needs to start. Dev box testing, don't let the dev say I am done, you figure out what mess I have made in the codebase. The dev is not going to move an inch because testing happens on their machine. Though the CI test, everything has run. Dev, QA, and product owner will go to the dev machine, test the story, acceptance criteria, most important test cases. If any problem, we are not filing defects, it's okay. We found a problem, fix it before you move to something else. Dev box testing, very important. Okay? For a story testing and exploratory testing. That's obvious that was required. So and then of course product owner has to sign off per story. Each story has to be signed off by product owner, not after a two-week sprint as soon as the story is done. End of the two-week sprint, it's a demo of what has been achieved to all the wider stakeholders as well. But before that, the sign off from product owner has to happen. Again, we are bringing UAT in as much upfront as possible from a product owner perspective. They cannot come back after four weeks and say, okay, where was my requirement? How is it? Sorry, you've got equal stake over here because quality is a team responsibility. Everyone needs to come here. Okay? The other aspects that we did is, of course, automation is the key to allow moving forward faster with safety net. So we focused on various different types of automation that were there. But automation cannot solve all the problems, especially in this type of complex environment. Okay? So we had to be very cognizant and smart about what non-automated testing is required to be done here to reduce the risk from the non-negotiables perspective. So we had a guiding light what to look forward to. What fires do we want to avoid? What fires are okay to take? We have to understand that. And based on that, how do we really structure our testing efforts around that? So, optimized testing efforts based on what is changing or not, exploratory testing became the key. Sanity testing. Now, because of the complexities, our engineering team was in Pune. All engineering dev QA work was happening from Pune. But our country supported four regions. Many more countries in those regions, right? We cannot be doing all type of testing possibly as real testing after the final candidate build is available. Why? Because payment integrations, partner integrations that might be there. You will just not get that. Ad network integrations, though the integration is one, is the ad getting served from one country or compared to the other? It's very important to find out. So for that, we started leveraging two different aspects. We started leveraging our business teams, our country teams in all these regions and we gave them a set of test cases or scenarios to say, these based on this type of changes that have gone in, we would like you to go through these type of scenarios at the minimal, plus whatever else you think and give us feedback. But test the app in the field and figure out what is going on. The second thing that we did is we started working with partners who gave support for on-field testing perspective. You can say, I want some testing happening in Kuwait for this particular network. Find me someone with these type of devices. Again, same approach. But get that feedback. And that became very important. And again, after all that feedback came through and it was okay, we had a pre-release sanity checklist. This checklist was a standard set of things that we want to validate because our automation coverage is not to the level that we want. Or there are things that we cannot automate. So how are we going to ensure those parts are checked first before going out? Certain analytics events which could not be automated as part of functional testing, how can we do that as well? And based on the checklist we used to execute that as well. We can talk separately about that. So the question was a sample of this release checklist. And we'll just talk post our core conversation for that. A CI CD, we had set up pretty well for that matter. Any app build or any API build and deployment or any testing, end-to-end testing changes that happened, used to trigger all the set of relevant tests, of course, and also run our E2E tests, end-to-end functional tests. To run our end-to-end functional test, we were not able to use any cloud solution for this, like source labs or AWS device farm or anything else. Because of various constraints of the licensing and content that is possible, right? None of these device labs are in the countries, all the regions where a product works. So if you launch the app over there, first thing it will say is the app is not supported in your country. So we had to set up our own lab. And this is, again, a separate conversation which I started calling it a mad lab. We set up an in-house device lab which could scale up to the level that we wanted. The lab, the last time I was there, we had about 30 devices, Android, iOS running in the lab. And the tests were almost running 24 by 7 over there. I'm very proud to say two devices, battery exploded in the one year of running the test, which means the devices were really exercised as much, right? It's not because the battery exploded, but that's a different quality issue for the manufacturer. But we actually made use of this kind of information. And that was very helpful. From a release approach, I spoke about the testing that we were doing. Stage releases is a very important concept which is required to be done. Now, how do you make experimentation fail fast in these type of non-negotiable criteria? And one way is to find that window of opportunity to say, I know this feature is not completely baked. But unless I try it in the field, there is no way for me to say, is it worth proceeding or am I in the right direction or not. And Google Play Store and App Store has this great feature of stage releases where you can upload a build and choose a stage release option. In case of Apple, the last I had seen was once you get into the stage release approach, it will release that build from 1 percent to 100 percent over a period of one week. It will keep on increasing it. You cannot change what percentage you want it to be. You can pause it. But the minute you unpause, it will again continue on its rollout strategy and it will get to 100 percent automatically. In case of Google Play Store, you can upload the build and you can say, this build I wanted to be at 1 percent. It's all natural numbers only. It's 1 percent, 1, 2, 3, no decimal points over there, right? So 1 percent, 2 percent and you could potentially keep different builds at different percent level for whatever experimentation you want to run. Okay? The risk keep in mind though of doing this approach, your user base will get fragmented. But what's the type of experiment you want to run? What's the type of experiment you want to get? So your release approach, when do you want to change that percentage? It's uploaded to Play Store. It's ready to be released. I want to release it at 1 percent at 6 p.m. India time because the India user base I know becomes active in the evening to use my product. So even if I keep it at 1 percent for 3 hours today evening, I will get sufficient data and I can stop that release. And that becomes a very important data point. Of course, in that 1 percent, I'm using at 6 p.m. India time because my maximum users are coming from India potentially. There will also be users from other regions who will get this build. Because it's 1 percent means 1 out of 100 users who comes in because user base will be maximum from India. I have a high probability of Indian users getting this build compared to other region users. So you have to see the volume also, what type of data you want to get. But use stage builds effectively and that can add extensive value, immense value to your release cycle. The other important aspect which is very, very crucial, especially from an app perspective, is the monitoring of these releases. It doesn't make sense to just say I'm doing a stage release. If you're not able to really look at the data coming back from it and take decisions, it's futile. Might as well put it to 100 percent directly. So it's very important, look at the analytics, look at the crash reports if at all coming in. Look at the best source of information from users. How many times have you complained on Play Store or versus on Twitter or Facebook or Instagram about this product is crappy? Look at these review comments based on where your user base is coming from. That can tell you tremendous insights about how your product is working for them. And it's very good feedback. So social media is again a very important aspect from it. And of course if you've got a structured support system look at the tickets that are being raised by the users as well. Specifically for the stage releases because that's where your experimentations are going on. And you're looking for that type of feedback. So that becomes a very, very crucial activity. So I did not speak about the actual testing strategy over here. Because automation you can use any tools. From native app perspective, APM works great for Android and iOS but there might be other tools as well and there would be other commercial tools as well. So you don't have to go down in the market anywhere. Choose tool sets that will give you value the kind of feedback that you're looking for. But these other aspects is something that from a native app perspective you do not think about too much. Your goal is not just to test a story or do sanity of that product before release. After release what is happening is as crucial as what you did during release. Because you don't have control of what the users might be doing. What kind of crappy or high-end devices they might be working with . So I hope that gives you some food for thought about what different things can happen from a testing and release perspective for native apps. Do we have time for some questions? About three minutes. So we'll talk about the checklist specifically separately because I know that's a different topic unless others are also interested in knowing about it then it's fine. Any other questions or thoughts? Yes? One minute. We'll get the mic. So you just mentioned that you have created that for testing purpose. So I just wanted to understand one point. Like you said that you are testing on 30 devices. So what was the main criteria when you are testing different OASs, different permutational combinations are there. So criteria for how and where do you run your automation? Whether it's on a local setup lab or a cloud-based. I think the criteria is the same. Look at your analytics data in terms of what are the users really using. What type of devices, where they are coming from. Identify the right user journeys. We automated from our UI perspective, end-to-end perspective only the user journeys, the critical user journeys, which our users would be going through every time. So based on that identification, based on the user segmentation, types of devices we chose which devices can be used for automation, which devices are automatable. For example, anyone from OPPO over here? Too bad. I would have given direct feedback again. OPPO device to do Android-based automation on the OPPO devices, you have to enable developer tools. That's the first criteria for any Android devices. In OPPO device, they are very secure. There is a capture to enable developer tools, which gets disabled every ten minutes of inactivity. There is no way you can run automation on OPPO devices. And that might be the most used device for your product. So there are a lot of such criteria based on which we selected devices and we ran all tests on all these types of devices identified. Okay. One more thing. I have one more question. When you're automating your test, in the native application, you're clicking something and your application gets crashed and you don't know the reason. So how are you handling scenarios like this? So we did instrumentation in our codebase. When we run the Android test, this we did for Android iOS. We were not able to get to this level of sophistication. There were different reasons for that. But we used to get logcat from the executed test. Clear logcat, the console logs for Android before running the test, after the test, captured it from the device, parsed it because there were patterns in which it told us if the app has crashed or not in that. And if the app has crashed, the functional test might have completed, but at the last stage of the completion, maybe the app crashed, right? So we'll still fail the test if the app crashed. Every morning, someone from the QA team, it was a responsibility from QA and at least one person every day looking at crashes that are happening, whether it's internal or external, from production and analyzing what is the reason. If you've got millions of users, you might get hundreds or thousands of crashes. Not all of them might be because of it, might be because of some payment integration SDK that is there, right? It's a problem on their side, but our app crashes because of that. But analyze it and take corrective actions if there's a crash that we need to fix or handle better on our side. It goes into a sprint planning and we address it immediately. And all your test cases were running on emulators or real devices? Real devices. Media streaming doesn't work very well in emulators. Let's see if there's anyone else who has a question, otherwise if you have any more we can... There's a question on this side. Just a last question. I'm scared of if you have to ask just one more. When we do a budget planning for the testing, what is the incremental cost you need to plan vis-a-vis a native app testing? In your experience what would be the... I mean in terms of approximate percentage or do you see there is no change? There's definitely a change. So fortunately, I didn't have anyone who asked me that question because we believed in the importance of doing automation and covering the set of things that we needed to cover. But it's an important criteria for sure. If I've got 13,000 unique devices I'm not going to spend on 1,000 devices out of that. You have to prioritize, pick and choose what is there. So the criteria that you need to look at first of all is what type of device coverage do you want from a native perspective to execute your test? Is it build versus buy? Can I work with a cloud-based solution where I'm outsourcing the execution? I'm building the automation for it. I'm just outsourcing the execution for that and what would be the cost comparison based on that. So there are different things to consider. From a web versus native perspective the difference is significant because from a web perspective I can take a device or rather browser OS cloud solution to just execute my test. It is much cheaper to use that compared to a device form itself. So these are different considerations to have. There is a difference but depending on the context of your product you might say just five devices is fine for me. I'll run tests once every night. That is okay for me. In our case we were running 30 devices the last time I was at 30 devices 24 by 7 tests were running. And we were not worried about the cost because other than the device cost everything we had built on our own. If it's a cloud solution maybe that can become a factor for some organizations. So I hope that addresses the question at least in some way we can definitely talk more before Deepthi pushes me out from here. I would like to say thank you for this opportunity and looking forward to talk to you more outside as well. Thanks a lot.


So, just as a way of introduction, I'd just like to welcome the Honourable Joss Frydenburg here representing the Prime Minister here today for this significant announcement and the obviously this significant partnership and support that we have from our federal colleagues. Also, we have Deputy Commissioner Ross Barnett who will be able to speak to you on some operational matters as well as Assistant Commissioner Katerina Carroll who is in charge of the G20 operational facilities but also the major operation over the coming months and Queensland certainly is well ahead of our G20 preparations ensuring that we've already had the legislation in place. We have the, as you'll see today, the infrastructure in place and more than important, we have the partnerships and as well as the communication strategies to ensure that Queensland has a safe G20 but also a friendly G20 to the many thousands of delegates that will come from all around the world. So we've got approximately 4,000 officials and 3,000 media representatives coming here to showcase Brisbane and Queensland as a safe state, a great state, also a great economy for them to invest in the future and we want to ensure that not just our visitors in G20 but also all Queenslanders in the rest of Australia can see this event as a showcase to exhibit to the rest of the world. This particular operational communication command centre that we have here is world first, it's state of the art and as a government we said that we would be revitalising frontline services and this is the continuation of that revitalisation of bringing the Queensland Police Service into the 21st century and ensuring that we are ahead of many police services right around the whole of the world. You'll see here today is the partnership as I said between the Queensland Police Service, the Australian Federal Police Services, the Australian Defence Services as well as other agencies both on a state, federal and local government level including the Brisbane City Council where we have those direct linkages into what's happening on the streets of Brisbane. But not just what's happening on the streets of Brisbane but how police and obviously other officials can ensure that those dangers are reduced for the benefit of the whole of the community. I'll just ask the Honourable Josh Bridenberg to say some words please. Well thank you very much Minister, it's a great pleasure to join you here for this announcement and Deputy Commissioner Barnett and Assistant Commissioner Carroll representing my parliamentary colleague Michael Keenan and also my good friend and Brisbane member Theresa Gambaro. Today is an important day because we are making good strides forward in ensuring that the G20, the most important meeting, international meeting that Australia has ever held is done in a way that is secure and safe for not just the leaders but for the people of Brisbane and for Queensland. As the Minister said this is a huge gathering, 4,000 delegates, 3,000 media representatives, the world's 20 leading political leaders from around the world including President Obama from the United States and President Xi Jinping from China and many, many others. It is a great opportunity for Brisbane, it's a great opportunity for Queensland and it's a great opportunity for Australia. Just like with other major meetings whether it's been APEC or Chogham or international events like the Olympics and the Commonwealth Games, the security component of those events have been extremely important. The opening, the official opening today of this QPS Major Facility Coordination Centre is extremely important in ensuring the safety of the event. It's also a major financial commitment for the federal government. We have contributed more than $97 million to ensure the security of the G20. $4.5 million has gone towards this facility and as you can see it's state of the art linking into CCTV, providing networking within the various conference rooms and ensuring that the various law enforcement agencies and intelligence agencies that will operate out of here, the Australian Federal Police, the Defence Force, ASIO and of course Queensland Police and more than 5,000 may I say police officers and law enforcement personnel from not just around Australia but also internationally. It's a major gathering, it needs to be safe and secure, it will be as a result of a facility like this. I'd like to thank the Queensland Government and particularly the Premier Campbell Newman who's worked very closely with the Prime Minister Tony Abbott in the preparations for this event as well as with the Mayor of the Brisbane City Council because they're an important part of the organisation for the G20. It's an exciting time and we look forward to working with Jack, with you, with your colleagues to ensure a great success for Australia and for Queensland when the G20 arrives. Thank you Josh, I'll just put it on to Deputy Commissioner in the short period of time but this is a world class leading facility that will stay the test of time through the G20 and showcase Australia as a leader in the security of major events but it will also give a great deal of peace of mind for Queenslanders and Australia leading forward and I'd just like to particularly commend and thank the Australian Federal Government, the Prime Minister yourself Josh for this commitment not just in funding but as you'll see through this Centre it's the partnership in relation to working together as a team to get the safest result for all the people in our different communities. It's about that information sharing, it's also about ensuring that the different departments are working together and linked together for the first time. You won't have people in different rooms trying to communicate, they'll be linked directly to each other for the first time which will see a distinctive advantage and a distinctive driven force of coordination to ensure that these games are kept in a safe as possible manner but also ensure that the rest of the world looking in will see the quality of the events that are able to be held here in Australia but also the type of security and the sense of safety that individuals will have and it will showcase Queensland and Australia as a safe place to do business with but also to come and visit. So Deputy Commissioner if you've got any operational? Thank you Minister. Operations across will be the largest peace time security operation in Australia's history as has already been mentioned that will require a commitment of over five and a half thousand police officers. The vast majority of those will be drawn from across the QPS but I want to acknowledge we've had significant support from the Australian Federal Police, every other state jurisdiction and New Zealand in contributing staff to that commitment. A significant part of the security responsibility that has been placed upon us in which we welcome, we understand the gravity of the situation, the ability to be able to discharge that function effectively will be helped significantly by this facility in which we are meeting today. I want to thank and acknowledge the federal government and the state government for their financial and other support in making this facility a reality. This police operation centre is, as the Minister said, absolutely state of the art and the best in Australia. We're very proud of it. We look forward to showing it to you the many facilities that it does have. What it does give us as a permanent legacy benefit for the Queensland Police once G20 is over is an integrated communications and command centre that has hardwired in our connections to all of the other major agencies with whom we do business. So for instance, when we need to gather for a major exercise or a major event, agencies such as ambulance, fire, ADF, ASIO and a range of other partners that we do business with on a daily basis will already have secure communications wired in to this facility. So when you get the opportunity to see it, it is fantastic to stay to the art and we look forward to being able to showcase it to you. Thank you. Any questions? I'll definitely commission on it.  What lessons have you learned from the 2007 APEC summit in preparing for Brisbane? Well in our security preparations for this event, we have looked at similar events that have been held not only in Australia but around the world and have learnt the lessons from the way that those events have been conducted and all of the lessons from APEC and every other G20 and every other significant event, security events that have been held has been carefully considered in our security planning for this event. Carl, but on that point though, I mean APEC was breached by the Chasers team. What was the major mistake of APEC which won't be repeated in Brisbane? Well I'm not going to look backwards at what mistakes if they were made by other jurisdictions in other events. All I'll say to you is that we have examined all of those and our security planning we think is an amalgamation of best practice from around the world and we're confident that we'll be able to provide a safe, secure and dignified environment for the top leaders of the world when they come to Brisbane in mid-November. How will this set up in use after the G20? It's a great legacy benefit for us so that when we have usual events like river fire, insect day, New Year's Eve, those sorts of things, we have the most fantastic command and control facility with CCTV and other outreach throughout the south-east Queensland and we'll be able to use this regularly and for the decades to come. That won't be my fault. No, definitely not. No, just for your bit there Robin, if you would have seen the communication centre which we inherited two years ago, it was like from a scene from Solo 1, you know, with the old motorbike riders with the police departments, whereas you're actually coming into a, you know, a most state-of-the-art scene from Battlestar Galactic Area to say the least and that's what it's all about. As we said there, it's about making sure that we keep working on revitalising frontline services and this here today will showcase as well as what we're doing with G20 but what we are doing with the whole revitalisation and technology now that the QPS has and we're now becoming world leaders in investigation and that's been seen in the results that we have in very serious crimes being solved recently. Ross, will there be snipers in the roof? You can rest assured that the security overlay that we put in place will have elements from the Commonwealth and the state. We're not going to broadcast all of our security planning for obvious incidents but can I say that we recognise the terrorist threat that currently exists in this country and we'll take all the necessary precautions but we're not going to make all of those precautions available to the public and I'm sure you understand the reasons why. But snipers are normally stationed on roofs though, aren't they? As I said, this is not a how-to session for people who are looking to breach the security at G20. I just want to give reassurance that we have carefully considered all of our contingencies and have factored all of those elements into our planning. How valuable address rehearsal was the recent roll visit? Considering that it was going to occur in the same environment around the BCEC, it was very valuable for us. We'll also be doing a range of exercises to test our capabilities here both in the Joint Intelligence Centre downstairs and in the Police Operations Centre here. They'll be rolling exercises over the next few months to make sure that when we get to G20 we're as fully prepared and exercised as we possibly can be. You're running out scenarios at the moment, Claire, with saying in a nerve centre, can you tell us... I mean, these are real-life scenarios, supposedly. Look, we've been doing scenario training around possible but fictitious events. Today and tomorrow is to familiarise our commanders with the new technology they'll have access to here and then over the weekend we'll be doing...we'll be running scenario exercise. Just to try to replicate the feel and tempo of activity that will be occurring during the G20, which will be significant. So security breaches or a possible attack or anti-government protests, all that kind of stuff? Yeah, look, in concert with the Commonwealth Government, they funded a range of exercise for us as well. So that's been rolling for about the last 12 months. We've had discussion exercises and we will increase the intensity and frequency of those exercises as we get closer to the event. Once the G20 is under way with the lead-up week, I'm guessing, how will the command round the clock and what agency will be in there? Look, I'm happy... I just want to acknowledge Assistant Commissioner Katerina Carroll, who is...well, I'll be the overall commander, but Katerina is the operational commander for G20, has been working on the planning for this event for the last two years with a large and highly dedicated team, including also we have partners at the Commonwealth G20 Task Force who have been invaluable in assisting our planning and also the state government coordination unit. So we have representatives from all of those people here. But Katerina has done an outstanding job in getting our preparations to this date. We were comfortable with where we're at. We're in no way complacent, but we feel that we're on track with our security planning. So I'll hand over to Katerina for my questions. Katerina, let's get you to come in the middle here, please. Just to answer who will be in this Police Operations Centre, it's literally every agency that we deal with. So the boss has already touched on Queensland Fire, ambulance, ADF, AFP, ASIO. So every law enforcement, every security agency, and all levels of government. And just to add, it is the Prime Minister and Cabinet event and obviously funded by them, and the relationship has been quite exceptional. And for us, I think the most pleasing part about this is we've been able to work quite quickly to get to this point, and we still have some six and a half months that we can test and exercise before we deliver the operation. How much pressure is being felt considering the magnitude of the leaders who are coming? How much pressure is being felt to get this far? I think there is a lot of pressure to get this right. We've been all over the world to look at past events similar to this, not only within our country, as APEC was mentioned, but also other G20s. But certainly planning has been well underway now for 18 months, and there's still six and a half months to go. We're quite confident that we are travelling along very well, but as you know, six months will go very, very quickly, and the event will be upon us. The Prime Minister mentioned that $97 million was going towards security. The overall cost for the G20s is relatively about $400 million. What's the rest of that? What's the other $300 million? Oh, there is lots of expenses that are incurred in promoting the event, ensuring that the proper facilities here, because as we talked about, you've got 4,000 delegates, you've got to find accommodation for them, as well as the media centre, and as you know, it's going to be held at the convention centre, where there's just going to be a huge amount of preparation. So the cost set up, but the security component of it is significant. I just want to emphasise that the Prime Minister recently had a briefing on the security preparations for the G20 from the Deputy Commissioner and the Assistant Commissioner and the various other federal agencies that were involved, and he was very comfortable and pleased with the progress that has been made today. But he also wanted to emphasise to the people of Queensland that we're not seeking to lockdown Brisbane, far from it. This is a wonderful event to showcase Brisbane and Queensland and Australia. And so we very much want to ensure that the people of Brisbane can go about their normal business. But at the same time, we can have these Heads of State join us for these very important discussions around how they're going to improve the economic governance around the world, how they're going to deal with some of the other major fiscal challenges that will be discussed around that table. So it's a very important point to emphasise. This is going to be done in conjunction with the people of Brisbane. The law enforcement agencies are bearing that in mind and that is very much the wish of the Prime Minister. I mean, Sydney was criticised seven years ago for blocking off so many streets. It got ridiculous. You couldn't walk in the city centre.  Well, I understand there's going to be a public holiday in the lead up and various arrangements will be made. I mean, of course, there are going to have to be some restrictions that you're going to need to put in place to ensure that the various leaders are able to move within the area and between events. But as far as possible we are going to ensure that normal business can be done and that the people of Brisbane do not find that this is a major imposition. And may I say that the importance of this meeting on that weekend November 15, 16 in Brisbane is going to produce lasting benefits to the State of Queensland. We are looking to showcase Queensland and showcase Australia to the thousands of people that are here focusing on our resource sector, focusing on our agriculture sector, focusing on our tourism and education sector. It is hoped that the messages that will be conveyed, that the information that will be given will lead to multi-million dollar contracts in time, hundreds of thousands of visitors coming to Australia in time and that will produce lasting benefits for not just this State but for the country. We have been told that 5000 police will be based here for G20. How many defence personnel? Well that might be kept under wraps in terms of the security preparations but the front line is the police and they are the ones who are going to be responsible for ensuring that the security of the G20 event is guaranteed. The new international presidents in October this is the first major event where the new Indonesian president is. How important will this G20 be for Australia's ties with Indonesia? Well as you know there is also the East Asia summit and the APEC meeting around the fortnight that involves also the G20 so it may not be the first event that the new Indonesian president attends but indeed it may be the first time they visit Australia. The Indonesia-Australia bilateral relationship is very important. SBY, Cecilio Bang Bang Udiono, the current president of Indonesia has been a great friend of Australia, has visited here like his predecessors and the Prime Minister has obviously visited Jakarta since assuming office. So we look forward to continuing that relationship and very much welcoming our friends from Indonesia for the G20. Next you have got some community forums coming up today and tomorrow. What are they for? What questions do you think people need answers to? We're going to continue our community forums and what we're wanting is as well as we understand there will be certain levels of protest at a G20 event and that's why we're getting out there and informing the community letting them know where there is places for them to go, where there are areas that they can feel also safe in there as well to have their free speech but also the most important thing is to know that they are part of our community as well and they will be certainly catered for in a way and as the honourable member just stated is this will be a special G20 event for the whole of Australia to showcase this great nation but it will be a great opportunity for the Queensland Police Service and the assisting agencies to shine as well. So whilst it is going to be obviously an interesting and a nervous time as you would imagine for all services it is a great time for them to be able to showcase the great talent and security measures that we have in place. So protests like we saw with the small Aboriginal group during the royal visit what you're saying is you're going to be planning they can plan those and be in a certain place to democratically say what they want. That's correct but I'll get the operas Catarina is also looking at that. We have a great meeting with all protest groups at the moment so there is a committee in place between the Queensland Police Service and the Brisbane City Council who are working together to accommodate those needs. From the very outset it has been our philosophy to engage with everyone that will be impacted by G20. So protest groups residents, businesses you name it and that's one of the reasons why we're having this public forum that's been hosted by Prime Minister and Cabinet is for people that really want to know how they're going to be impacted they really should come to that forum. What we're saying is we will meet with these groups and try and ensure as much as we can that all protests are lawful and peaceful. However, there will become a point though if there is disruption there is damage and there is destruction that we will take affirmative action. I think it's important that we make sure that all protests are lawful and peaceful. However, there will become a point though when we take affirmative action. I think everyone knows that doesn't matter what you do these days you are under some sort of surveillance, some sort of CCTV, whether it be on your cameras whether it be the cameras that are provided by the City Council or other agencies people do need to know that we all want a safe and secure G20. Not just for the delegations but for the community and the residents of Brisbane as well. We saw in Toronto and London that not all of those protestors will be taken to the table beforehand. Will there be kettling? If things go, you know, if they become violent and aggressive, will there be kettling or will you go... We don't use the term kettling in Queensland in fact it's a form of containment we don't intend using that. You know, we're very upfront about how we want to go about business we want to engage, we want to communicate we want to have that trust when we go into this operation with those groups that don't want to engage with us we'll be out engaging with them. Look, we just have to wait and see what transpires. I mean, you're right in terms of recent developments in the Crimea and in the sanctions that have followed but let's just wait and see what happens. I mean, primarily he focuses on economic issues and the treasurer Joe Hockey has been meeting with his finance counterparts and we have a very advanced and comprehensive agenda around trade around tax reform around financial governance but as we saw in the last G20 meeting which was in Russia the Syrian conflict became a major issue for discussion so we just do not know what will be the major issue come in November but as you say Vladimir Putin and Russia a member of the G20 and I suppose if they want to come they'll all come. Should we expect to see tanks in the street? I'd absolutely say no to that look, I just want to emphasise here that this is a great opportunity for Queensland and when we hear about potential protesters and the like sure people can voice their opinions but the vast majority of Queenslanders should be celebrating this opportunity and encouraging the community to get behind it and saying to those protesters don't hijack our event don't hijack our opportunity to put Brisbane on the international map and that's what this is is an incredible opportunity for this state and for the country to host the 20 leaders from the United Nations as well as the European Union the heads of international organisations like the United Nations like the IMF, like the World Bank will all be here in Brisbane together with a vast array of media representatives from around the world we are taking the necessary precautions it's our responsibility as a federal government to ensure that these international leaders are able to conduct their business in a safe and secure environment we're working very effectively with our state counterparts in that regard but I want to just emphasise this is a celebration this event is a great opportunity this is not going to be an overbearing security, ADF type environment this is not that this is an opportunity to have world leaders come together for constructive discussions in this great city of Brisbane how do you have us being the criticised for breaking an election promise with the deficit levy how concerned are you about that should it be scrapped? well let's not get ahead of ourselves the budget is still to come there's obviously been a lot of speculation in the media about what will or will not be contained in the budget we have a big task ahead of us we were given cumulative deficits totaling $123 billion projected deficits out to $667 billion the Australian people elected us to fix this mess we will announce a number of initiatives in the budget which will go towards that aim of bringing the budget back into balance it's a long and arduous task it's not popular, if you go back to 1996 when John Howard came into office in his first budget he cut spending across the board 1% of GDP and in 1997 1.2% of GDP while quarantining defences the only area that was saved from those spending cuts this is tough but necessary action for Australia and in doing so we will ensure that the economic environment for Australians the job opportunity for Australians in the future will be much better as a result can you have on you that it's a terrible idea to just cut spending rather than putting it in government we just quickly stick to that question I just wanted to ask Katrina we've seen protests in Melbourne for example that have gone out of control really quickly spikes in police forces obviously as you said you've prepared for anything that case you're obviously talking from the G 2006 I suppose we certainly have studied all those and learnt from them we're prepared for those actions the environment has changed a lot since then so I keep harping on about the fact that we are engaging in groups already we know people that want to protest we also keep reiterating that lawful and peaceful protests will be supported however if there is that certain line in the sand that is drawn and they step over that there has to be action taken the reality is we have 20 of world leaders in our city to protect and we have an obligation to do so so people need to understand that but we have made every effort to engage with anyone that's going to be affected and we will continue to do so can I just follow up on that just in terms of the comments we've made earlier on Mr. Freiberberg the QPS clearly understands the Prime Minister's intent about how we like this event to be run, the look and feel of it so you can rest assured that the security measures that are put in place will be necessary but they will not be oppressive and will be very disappointed after the event if there is criticism that the security overlay that's put in place wasn't deemed appropriate for the circumstances what did you think when you saw recent pursuit of yesterday and the day before that I'm happy to do that but is there anything else just on G20? I'll come to that in the economic environment in the economic environment that's so abominable how affordable is the G20? well let's say it is absolutely affordable and as you know as a commitment by the previous government because the spin-offs for the Australian economy and for the community will be much greater than that particular expenditure that has been committed this is a unique opportunity countries all around the world are jealous of Australia for being able to host such a great meeting of world leaders so I'm very confident that this meeting will go off successfully that the discussions will be constructive and productive and that the benefits to the people of Queensland and Australia will be both lasting and real


eichelmurphy-sports.a Welcome back. I'm joined in studio by Aidan Campbell marketing officer with Finn Harps and Ian Harkin the chairman of the club and of course the countdown continues to the long-awaited Jenny Gull community stadium and it's Evolvement in Stern-Orlar just a stone's throw away from the present ground a lot happening behind the scenes and Hopefully in the not-too-distant future Finn Harps will be playing at that new stadium We're going to be discussing more about that and Fundraising and a lot of the things going on behind the scenes very shortly But firstly I'm going to begin with Aidan and last night Aidan Harps getting a point which on the surface of things looked a good result against Bohemians 2-2 second time this season They've got a draw But I suppose disappointment as well because it could have been a victory as harps led in a late goal and then UCD Securing victory so harps are back at the bottom of the table the drama continues As you say going up to One of the biggest teams in the country getting a draw normally would be seen as a good night's work We're at the business end now and points are precious UCD have done, you know, they've had a good season and surprise a lot of people but they've got good young players and they've put it up to us, but I suppose if you go back to The start of the season or sorry that the end of last season when we had that fantastic night when we secured Our premier status against Longford and it was those fantastic scenes across the pitch with children and everybody else celebrating and I think a lot of people took that team to their hearts and Losing so many players in the preseason. I think we'd We lost 12 players and you always know when you've got good players because everybody else wants them and Trying to put a squad together The market was intensely difficult Leading up to this season. So there was always a danger that this season's team would be compared with that team and We, you know, when we did put a squad together, you're obviously taking in players that And that you know about that you think can do the job But you don't know until you actually start and it is very difficult to source a player Or it's becoming increasingly difficult who can compete at this level Being one of the two part-time clubs in this division because I think the UCD guys train As much as professional clubs and it's very difficult and I think Goddard Hoey the drawn out chairman has Come out and just articulate it really well what the challenges are So we've again coming down to the wire and that team last year incidentally I think they ended up with 44 points, which is extraordinary that went to the last game was a really competitive season, but so you know, we always knew it was going to go to the wire and This game next week. We always knew it was going to be a cup final Yeah, so really what we need to do is and get out there and Get that support behind us this week and just really emphasize the importance of supporters They have just been amazing True what has been a really really tough season. We haven't given them a lot to cheer about But they can make the difference next Friday and and let's not forget me last season a lot of people would have felt It was arguably Harp's best team in 20 years. Yeah played really well Ended up eighth in the table. So it was going to be difficult to get even eighth this season and I mean from early on You know, some people would have said well, you know getting into a playoff was probably the best that could be expected We're still in a situation now that at least going into the last home game There's something to play for and just to recap on the situation You CD have a game in hand and that's on Monday night. There's gonna be a lot of people looking at that Now from a harps point of view, obviously, they'll be hoping you CD slip up But irrespective of what happens there The fact of the matter is next Friday at Finn Park harps have to really beat you CD. I think so and you know what? There's no, you know, we won't sit here and make excuses. You CD are a good team They've got I think the management team there has done a great job But we know we've got players in our squad who've got the experience ability to go out and win that game and They're good enough to do it. I do think it will help a lot if we can, you know Get a big crowd of Finn Park get people really behind them and there's no reason why they can't go do the job It's a big week for us. We're coming to the end of our stadium draw as well and we're looking for support on that We'll be running a we're working with the we care food bank people along with the supporters club from Manchester City and Liverpool So a lot of preparations get made and there was huge disappointment after conceding that like go last night But you know once again when things are difficult on the pitch You really need people off the pitch to stand up and it is not easy. But again our volunteer base You know, we've got everything from designers to fundraisers so the people work in the office to people help us out We're on the ground and they've really stood up this season and it can be difficult when there's a bit of negativity out there, but It's just been absolutely fantastic support from both the supporters and our volunteers and I think that always has to be acknowledged. So Yeah, it comes down to that match. It's gonna be like a cup final so and of course after that harp still then have to travel to draw another last game of the season UCD's final matches against Shamrock grovers who may or may not have the league title wrapped up and then after all of that There can be a playoff at a neutral venue against the team Challenging to try and get up from the the first division. So there could be a lot more football to come Ian Harkin away from the actual on the pitch activities. We can talk about another pitch the Dundee goal community stadium project Fair to say it's it's gone on for quite a while. There's been a few final hurdles, but from your perspective now You know, you can see over the horizon. There is that there is a finish line there You can see the end of the tunnel. So just to update people. I mean, essentially There's the guts of sort of four million in in funding is pretty much there in place ring-fenced The County Council has come in the FAIs come in and harps have to through fundraising and loans and whatever else Make up that extra little bit of difference to get them over the final hurdle And we're talking about a sort of a six million euro project in total. Yeah, not far off it. Yeah Yeah, it's some it's somewhere in around five point eight at the moment. Yeah Yeah And so in terms of where we are with it at the moment We've submitted everything to the Department of Sport They've come back with a final list of about eight points that they want us to address and some of those are legalities with regards to a charge on the land for example that and some of those processes They're a little bit frustrating that they come in so late, but they they have to be done and There is a time Issue with those that it's just a process whatever so we're waiting where we were hoping to be actually Seeding the grass this year But we're kind of waiting on them to do their process on their side But all of the points that they have given us we're addressing those at the moment and Hopefully now in the next number of months we'll be getting the diggers on site right and the clubhouse this Monster draw as well as we can call it coming up this weekend 20,000 in cash the the top prize that vitally important that that people come out and this last push for for ticket sales no doubt Yeah, I mean it's the first in many steps that we'll be taking over the next number of years and It's very difficult as opposed to to start fundraising without knowing that you have the green light from the government to get things Going and without even seeing the diggers on site. So we've we started this process about a month or so ago with a Golf event over in London, which was hosted by a shea given and it was a huge success I suppose it was my first time going Going out fundraising for anything I suppose but and going over to London where We weren't really sure we knew that they have an affinity to towards the Gaelic and and going over there with Finn Harps We were absolutely astounded by how welcoming they were and how helpful The team over there from Donegal Association from Tony McFadden and Mark McMunnigal and those guys Really supported us they put on a magnificent event and shea himself Was a he was a star on the day now He got everybody to put their hand in their pocket and we did really well now in that first event So just how much pressure is there sort of on the club to fill that little gap because it is dependent on you need to Get this before the other pieces of the jigs saw all come in as well. There is yeah Yeah, and as a club as well as about prioritizing this this this stadium is And it's so important because it'll be the catalyst for change. It will allow us to generate improved revenues and Eventually that will manifest itself on the pitch in the future as well, but but it has to take priority In the short term so that we get it built Yeah, and I suppose until you know what division you're going to be in next season that will Influence things and in terms of getting sponsorship as well and that's that's a big factor It is a big factor. I mean, it's hugely important that that we stay in this division but I think there's like the Donegal community what I've seen over in London and Even yesterday I was I was invited to the opening of the facility there in convoy by the Donegal GAA And I went in there with my harps to hack it on and I didn't know what reception I would get but Everybody wants us to succeed Everybody wants us to have that facility in place and the Donegal community. It doesn't matter where they're in London Dublin Here in Donegal. They all want us They know that we've been through this for this last 20 years trying to build our facilities as as Donegal GAA Had the same issues as well in convoy It will be our new home and it will be state-of-the-art as well and it will be fan focused as well Some of the comments I was getting yesterday was that people want that entertainment that you know, first of all, they want to be sheltered and they want to You know, it has to be a Friday night experience about being in a venue that has atmosphere that has the food That has you know ease of access and food and drink and you know a proper night out And if we look at the stands, I mean the the plans have been tweaked slightly But we're talking about a a capacity of just over six thousand two covered seated stands Two covered terraces which at a future date could be converted for seating But I'm sure there's certainly quite a lot of fans who probably would prefer to stand. Yes So behind both goals now, they will be terraces and we are looking at potentially reducing that capacity slightly to get a higher grade rating on our stadium in order to do that We have to put some seats into the away end so Yeah, I mean the if you look at what's happening in Europe at the moment with in Germany where a lot of the stands are converting back to having Standing room behind the goals. That's something that That came out in our own research before we started this latest redesign and all going well and You know what as things stand now things can be subject to change but when Do you think harps could be in that new stadium? What what season are we talking about as things stand now? Yeah, well, we were hoping to be in at the beginning of of 2024 but it's looking like it'll be mid-season somewhere in around June July Yeah, and just bringing Aidan back in Aidan I know we spoke previously about other clubs and the lift that this will give the club Shamrock rovers not so long ago where we're nomads and I'm playing a talca park and in front of Hundreds rather than thousands. They've got a bounce. We look down the road Sligo have obviously upgraded their stadium they've plans as well in the brandy well and Probably don't talk one of the exceptions to the rule despite their recent success But even for the whole league, I mean it it helps There's a real sort of filter-down effect as well you know and it's extraordinary think that the you know the turf was first turned in 2007 and We're still here Which is unfortunate, but if you look at What talastadium did for Shamrock rovers? And you talk to the people there. I said the difference in running the club is night and day You're offering people good facilities As Ian said it gives you this that ability to create a match night experience Not just a football match where you've got the families you can look after your supporters who want the you know The more kind of traditional night out with the standing with the the design of the stadium was built for atmosphere Again, we've seen the season Chris and we'll go back to that Longford game again the amount of kids that were there There is a huge There's a huge need out there for For life up all and you know, it's not just about watching Football on the television we can have it right here in their county. So You know and then there's the the whole community aspect where we're working with organizations like Donegal Down syndrome the food bank this week We have kids from teams all over the county come do flag bears and you want to have the proper toilets You want to have the proper catering and we're talking about putting in a play area So families can come and they can put the kids there go enjoy the match get some nice food So it's all really positive not just for finn harps before the county and for a league of our own football. So it's imperative and that and Everybody comes together and really makes it happen because it's it's really going to be good for Donegal and On the football inside then obviously it just makes it that bit easier to attract players There's a lot of talk Long-term. Can you be a part-time club at the Premier League? I'm not sure you can and this will give us the platform to bring in those extra kind of revenues on sponsorship and fundraising to make that happen Yeah, and just a conscious of the clock here just in bringing in one more time and Hayden's touching it there, you know, let's face it the facilities at finn park haven't changed much since the early years and you know To bring new people to the game for for people to bring maybe kids or a girlfriend or a boyfriend You know people expect a certain standard of things. Yes, there's a huge amount of money going to be invested But you know unless you're competing and have the facilities You're against other sports as well and it's going to increase matchday revenue considerably. So that that's a factor going forward Yeah, I mean If you look at the gates that we were getting back in the 70s in the 1970s We entered we entered the league in 1969 right throughout the 70s We never were finished below Halfway down the table in the 70s and we were getting regular crowds of five six seven thousand peaking at ten thousand for the Celtic game in 1983 and That's the potential don't you go all people are sports mad and they're crying out for a facility, you know Somewhere to go on a on a Friday night I've no doubt like what when we do build it that the crowds will return and it is so important to get it People have expectations because they do travel over to England and they they know what's available over there And we need to match that on on a micro level, but It's possible and and finally just you know, it's going to be the dunnygall community stadium Primarily people are going to associate it with harps, but you know, hopefully there's going to be maybe underage Internationals and there could be concerts. There could be other sports I mean this is something this is going to be an asset for the whole of dunnygall and indeed the Northwest Absolutely. Yeah, it's it's you know, it's it can't be just something that's that's there. That's opened every second Second Friday it has to be used right throughout the year and generated in revenues Right throughout the year it will be an asset to the whole county Yeah, and finally, you know, I suppose a lot of people will you know until they see the diggers and a bit more concrete going in You know, that will give it a major boost in itself So that's something you you can confidently hear today You think you know, we're just what months away from the never been more confident Not not only just because of the where we are in the process But because of the goodwill that I'm seeing from lots of different people from from the minister from from the FAI from local Counselors everybody wants to get this done or fans as well So it's I've never been more confident that it will happen yet. Great. Well listen gentlemen there We leave it those tickets are on sale From club members you can buy them online as well and no doubt It'll be a few so just before kickoff next week also So in Harkin and Aidan Camel many. Thanks for coming into studio. We'll go for a break


Actually, it began yesterday for those who knew it at the Red Espain, and Philippe Papps wants to say something about that happening yesterday evening. So Philippe Papps is the one who has organised it every Friday evening. Not every Friday evening, only before Fosden. If you were there, I want to thank you for putting up with a slight chaos we had. We were chronically out of waiters, so at the end we were basically pouring our own beer and passing it around. We had an overall total of people of roughly 300 at our maximum. We had reserved the bar for 150 people. The fire regulations mentioned that there should only be 250 people, maximum in there, but we managed. The place is still there, and we're still allowed to go there next year. Our total bill at the end of the evening was just over 4,000 euro, which was only beer. Last year we had a bill of only 2,800 euro. A couple of people still need to chase me down to give me more money, and then we have a surplus of roughly 300 euro to give to Fosden. So thank you everyone for being there, and hopefully see you next year, but not all of you next year. Thanks. So thanks Philippe, and as you heard it, drinking beer is healthy for Fosden, so next year go back on Friday evening. So Fosden is actually a meeting about free software and open source, but sometimes you have, you can think it's a meeting about singing, like you know the free software song, and sometimes it's about dancing. So I don't know who was last year and remembers the Fosden dance, but once again we'll do it because we have a new team of filming here, and we don't want them to miss the Fosden dance. So I'll do it with Damien, and as a side note Damien is the maintainer of GNU meeting. So after that I'm not sure you will want to use GNU meeting anymore, but that's your choice. So thanks for the attention. Now I have to find my notes. I'll try to keep it as short as possible because I know you are not here to listen to me. Just to remember, although Fosden is growing every year and we welcome a lot of people during the weekends, it is still organized by volunteers only. So nobody gets paid for it. That's always done in the spare time of the people organizing it. So if you encounter glitches in the organization, please bear with us and maybe give a helping hand. And that means also that every donation you make doesn't go in the pocket of anyone in the organization, but it's really put for the organization, travels for the speakers, hotel, etc. So your donation is absolutely welcome, and every year it enables us to stay independent from any sponsors. We have big and great sponsors, but we have still the freedom to refuse sponsors that are too difficult for us, and that lets us be free in the organization. So thank you for all the donations. The Fosden is taking place here at the Université Libre of Bruxelles, and it's organized by the circle of, it's co-organized by the Circle Informatique who sells sandwiches and hot dogs at lunchtime. We have also visitors with disabilities like blind people, etc. So please be friendly with them. If you see people in difficulty, donate to help them. Just they will be happy you help them. During the talks, actually I'm giving the bad example because my mobile phone is on now, but during the talks please switch off your mobiles. This year we don't organize buffet this evening. The other years we also collect pictures you take during the event. This year we decided to put the pictures on Flickr. So if you put your pictures there, give them the tag Fosden and Fosden 2006. If you don't like Flickr, you can go on the homepage of Fosden.org and there you have explanation or you can put a link on a wiki. You can always send feedback by mail at feedback at Fosden.org. The talks during this weekend are taking place in the Janssons that year for those that drank too much yesterday and in the Chavin. In some places you have La Mer that is noted, but it's Chavin, no talk in La Mer. This evening at 5pm we have the donations returns meeting that you know that for each donator we try to give something back. From 25 euros we give back a t-shirt, we don't sell the t-shirts and for bigger donations we try to give bigger things and this year we have the biggest returns ever. We are able to give two work stations and we also have two Nokia devices to give back. So for more information you can check the website or go to the info stand. So that's about it. Thanks for your attention. Now I'll pass the word to Richard Stolman. Thanks.