Thank you so much all of you for coming out despite the weather and to our visitors Welcome to beautiful DC in springtime For those who are watching on the livestream actually there's a very uncharacteristic snowstorm outside So again, thank you to everyone who braved the elements to come here today to New America a nonprofit non-partisan public policy Institute that invests in New thinkers and new ideas to address the next generation of problems For the United States and for the world with a focus on preserving our foundational values in a time of transformative technological change I'm Kevin Bankston. I'm the policy director of the open technology Institute Which is the tech policy and tech development wing of New America that's dedicated to fostering Amongst other things a stronger and more open internet for a stronger and more open society Right now. We're facing a pretty unique threat to that internet And I'm really honored today to welcome three leading European policymakers who are visiting DC from Germany to discuss with policymakers and advocates one of the most pressing issues for the future of the internet and that is Government surveillance and especially mass surveillance. So today we're having what we'll call a transatlantic dialogue about that issue And talk about some of the potential policy solutions to address those issues Just to tell you what we're going to do We're going to probably have a conversation of about 40 minutes after I give some introductory remarks then about 20 minutes of questions from the audience and then People can finish their lunch or have refreshments or whatever we're going to leave plenty of time for offstage chatting with our guests so To introduce them At the end of the row we have Konstantin von Notz. He's a member of the German Bundestag of the Green Party These all gentlemen are members of the Green Party He was elected in 2009 as a member of the Committee on Internal Affairs and is a Green Party spokesman for topics related to digital rights He's also deputy chairman of the Green Party delegation in the Bundestag and studied lot Heidelberg In the middle of Jan-Philip Jan-Philip Albrecht. He's a member of the European Parliament for the Green Party He was elected in 2009 He's a member of the Committee on Civil Liberties Justice and Home Affairs and serves as a Green Party spokesman for Justice and Home Affairs He's recently been very central to the debates on data retention and online privacy Said law in Bremen, Berlin and Brussels and specialized in IT law at the University of Hanover and Oslo And then finally at Malta Spitz a member of the Federal Council of the German Green Party He was previously from 2006 to 2013 one of six members of the Green Party Executive Committee and he focuses a lot on digital rights privacy and civil liberties He's a founder of the initiative pro-nets. I can't actually pronounce this Which yes is in favor of neutrality and Right on a member of the Chaos Computer Club or CCC Many privacy folks in the US know Malta based on his lawsuit where he successfully got T-Mobile to hand over all of his location records Which was then made into a really interesting visualization online at Dizite by site Sort of showing his movements over a very long period of time and was one of the better illustrations of just how much data Phone companies have on our location. You should Google it. It's really cool These gentlemen are here in DC. Thanks to hundred ball, which is a think tank associated with the Green Party in Germany That focuses on a wide range of topics They have 30 office locations over, you know, five continents Really excellent institution that is co-sponsoring today's event Which is just the latest in a series of collaborations between our organization and hundred ball They organized a similar delegation of visitors in 2012 and we held an event then Constantine was was here for that They also helped us organize the international summit for community wireless networks when we held that in Berlin last year So we want to thank them for helping with that Helping make this event a possibility and we look forward to continuing to work with them so to the issue at hand and I'm gonna Realize my intro to your comments are rather long. So I'm gonna try and keep them short, but Snowden opened a breach of trust between the US and Europe and The casualties have included public trust in the internet and the credibility of the US government as a global steward of that internet The architecture of the global open internet is under an enormous amount of pressure as a result The prospects for meaningful reform are still very uncertain Meanwhile and somewhat ironically it may be that the revelations about the NSA's conduct Have created new threats to the open internet As governments around the world consider ways of locking down and gaining stronger national control over the internet in their Countries in ways that could threaten the free flow of information and free expression and internet freedom Something that's sometimes called technological sovereignty or a term We don't particularly like the vulcanization of the internet or the creation of a splinter net of bordered internets The topic of today's conversation is How can like-minded leaders on both sides of the Atlantic who are concerned about mass surveillance especially mass surveillance over the internet? Fashion a new transatlantic paradigm or dialogue On how to modernize surveillance policy for the 21st century This is not an easy task But there are people on both sides of the Atlantic that have a deep interest political and economic on repairing the damage that's been done And in many ways Germany Is in a unique position here with perhaps the most credibility combining German political and economic power With the fact of the country's very deep historical sensitivity to state surveillance and Then combining that with the outrage in that country over amongst other things the NSA's year-long wiretapping of Chancellor Angela Merkel's cell phone adds up all to what I hope will be a really potent ally in the transatlantic fight for a reformed government surveillance regime not just in the US but around the world so Justice Germany has been a global leader on data privacy. We're hoping that Germany is going to be a great leader on privacy rights in the intelligent law enforcement context So we're very fortunate to be joined today by these three particular outspoken Political leaders on the questions of data privacy and state surveillance, and I'm hoping they can help shed some light on these issues I'm gonna walk through a variety of questions Talking about the political response in Germany the political response across the EU What the economic impact you imagine is is is now or is going to be from the NSA revelations particular technical responses that might be appropriate to the NSA surveillance And what the future of transatlantic collaboration on this issue might look like so but to start with a very general question directed to any and all of you Can you describe the public reaction in Germany to the NSA revelations and how much of that has been directed at the news of Chancellor Merkel's wiretapping and how much at the sort of broader surveillance infrastructure that's been revealed well the tapping of Merkel's phone was A turn turning point for the discussion Not because people were so surprised that governments Were spying on each other and I think that's not such a surprising Thing overall But everybody in Germany knows Angela Merkel and has some kind of relation to her. Yeah good or bad and someone like her with her East German biography being tapped on for probably ten years With all the talk she did on the phone, that's what people suppose That's what happened People got the idea that this abstract thing we discuss mass surveillance after the Snowden files became Very concrete to two people so it was a breaking point in the discussion and We we have a Big discussion in the Bundestag as well about this those subjects and From our point of view the green Fraction and the Bundestag we don't believe the defense story of the government that is that the NSA and the USA Pretty much evil when it comes to surveillance and Miss Merkel and Germany is a poor victim in this mass surveillance issue we believe that a Germany takes part in something like an international data transfer Circle where agencies spy on other countries Harming the constitutional rights of those others other countries because they're they can do that they're allowed to and then meeting every other week and exchanging fest platen hard drives just exchanging the art drives and We have an inquiry now in the German Bundestag since last week and We will try to prove that Germany is playing an active role in this system and Our hope is that This blame game stops then and we get a real discussion about How far can can a government go? by surveilling That's that's really interesting to hear I'm sure I'm gonna have more questions about German law and where it fits in German practices and where that fits in the broader landscape But it's interesting you mention your party's rejection of this sort of good goodbye good guy bad guy narrative or the blame game is How prevalent would you say is that viewpoint in the broader German populace? well people try to feed of course Anti-American stereotypes with this discussion, but I would say and now we have a very recent urgent things happening in in Europe with Ukraine and I feel the way The US deals with the whole issue Speaks for itself that I mean it's not outspoken, but you know this victim role of of Germany in this thing It's not carrying through and so I think this view is changing and We are asking we are not the only party or not the only person that are asking for the German Responsibility, I mean another line of course it is a difference to this Surveillance issue overall Considering you you pointed it out the German history with two Totalitarian regimes in the last hundred years Maybe more even the last hundred years But so people have a very you know Deep in their mind and in their families an idea where surveillance can lead to and of course we didn't have September 11th, and I always Discussed this in the discussions we have been in Germany if there would have been Such a thing like September 11th on German ground with the 3000 dead people we would have a different discussion than we have in Germany to so Knowing that I think this is a turning point now what we know because of the Snowden files and We had a initiative Most recently by authors hundreds of authors Nobel Prize winners and This initiative was had one center sentence Someone who is being surveilled is not free and so without being pathetic I think the question is that we have to discuss If we want to live in the free democracies We lived in the last decades Or if we are willing to give that up Because someone who is surveilled is not free I would just like to mention Two polls because you ask about how is the feeling in German society there was a polarizing it was around December and it was asked is the is the you as a trustworthy partner for Germany and 70% of the German population or 70% in this representative poll said no And and I think this is like a changing point like especially after 1880 1889 and everything There was still a close Relationship and I would also call it friendship between the two To societies at the end and I think this was really like a hot damage and the second poll was Germans really closely closely Relate all this spying activities to the oh to the oh Oh Barma administrations there was the second poll was saying like in 2008 2009 oh Barma had around 88% in favor in the German population like oh Barma was the biggest star in German politics. He got even more support than our own politicians and ask for his and ask your I think it was around 40% only so I think this is really changing the whole debate over the Last eight to ten months how the German society Hooks on the US because there is like some kind of Coldness Coming up and people just see they are they are they are partners, but they are Not any longer our Friends we can trust on maybe I Mean that's That's profoundly worrisome. Those are those are not good numbers one thing. We've been looking at here at New America We've had several events looking at the cost of surveillance not only looking at the dropping costs of actually doing surveillance such that mass buying is available on a level that you know the Stasi would have Really loved but also looking at the costs of the programs Economically to our foreign relations, etc. It sounds like you know the cost even to our the relations of many of our closest allies is Really profound Which I guess makes it all the more important and and and a good thing that Folks like you are coming to DC to try and build bridges at least with with those here Who are working to try and rein in the NSA so I'm wondering if you could tell us more about What you're doing here in DC the message that you're carrying to lawmakers here and how they're responding to that I think that actually We tried to Bring it a bit away from from this foreign relation and in cultural Clash debate which it was Since since eight months now and that's why we say Let's not look anymore and the at this blame game or in the form of this blame game because these numbers which might have Just brought out are there because of this blame game and this cultural gap debate taking place and because the concerns the Substantial concerns have not been Appointed from both sides from Europeans and from the US and that's what we tried to bring in In Germany and in the in Europe, but also here that we should talk about the substantial concerns Which by the way are in our view more or less the same for US consumers and citizens as for German citizens and consumers or that you can could say for all EU citizens and consumers because We are talking about the question of I on the one side What can governments do in general? What's proportionate when it comes to the infringement of privacy rights and and civil liberties for for the purpose of Assuring security or effective law enforcement and what is effective at the end also, but also What's the reasonable expectation of privacy and self-determination? We would say as Germans With having informational self-determination as something which is I would say going a bit Abroad from privacy only to the The possibility of human dignity and then self-determination of personality in a digitalized society and I think that's what we need to talk about and what's a concern for all of the citizens and more or less Western democracies at the moment because People realize that this obviously Yeah Is it's not any longer in the full disposition of our political leaders on a national level? because we are in a globalized digital economy because we are in In a in a world where since a decade the threats are more or less International where the reaction to it also is more less international where intelligent services Exchange information and and all of this is happening and we pose the question. What's our common reaction to it? Do we have a transatlantic? Answer as Europe as as United States or also perhaps even abroad or is it these states on that and Is it decided together with citizens and consumers do we debate it or? Do we just I mean? react on a more or less symbolic level and I don't think that this would be sufficient and we need to now Deliver some some very concrete answers to it and maybe let me add one part since these all those discussion discussions are most likely Related to the governments itself and to the executive side We are very interested in talking about what can parliamentarians do what can parliaments do To get this problem Solved somehow See I I guess you have this discussion here in the US, but we Have it as well not that strong yet about the failure of the oversight of secret agencies and I think There is a need of Alliance between parliamentarians internationally against mass surveillance and and for a stronger oversight of the agencies because they just Took off and you know, they are doing what they think they are supposed to do and I Guess the executive side is not the best side To to border that the parliaments have to do this and I think they are on the European parliament side but the German as well since we have the oversight on our agencies and I think you you have this discussion and I hope That in the end you will get a much stricter and stronger oversight So we can Control those agencies and what they do in secret much better Well, so our our Congress currently in the news today actually there's a new bill from the leaders of the House Intelligence Committee And also We're hearing a new proposal that will be coming from the Obama administration That would end the NSA's bulk collection of phone records Under under USA Patriot Act section 215 Much of the debate here has focused on that program I think one because it's the one that we know most about it is the simplest to understand And it clearly impacts the privacy rights of many in fact practically every American However, there are vast other aspects of the NSA's activities including programmatic wiretapping under the PISA amendments act section 702 Which allows broad authority to capture international communications from here in the US and then there is all the surveillance happening outside of our borders under strictly the president's authority Including hacking of Google and Yahoo's data links between their data centers We heard recently stories of the capture of webcam images being used on Yahoo messenger Address books being moved between these companies and tapping of fiber optic links outside the country so I've pretty much loaded the question here, but I'm wondering Do you think Congress's focus on the bulk records program is sufficient to address the global concern about out of control? Surveillance will will an end-to-the-phone record program restore trust in any meaningful way or is more needed Well, it's a it's a good first step of course to Take care of those issues, but in the end we have a global world and With allies you can't measure, you know, it's a question of human rights and you can't Have different Measures on on those questions So Especially for the acceptance. I mean, you know in the as the consumers are equal I guess they have to be equal looking at the consumers rights as well and We have a very strong discussion about the trust and to American infrastructure American technique Yeah, the whole Apple thing and it will harm Economically interests very much over the next years, I guess And it's a odd thing. I think I just went to the tip it a big computer Fairy there in Hanover where many industries Related to computer technique are coming together and these people don't understand Why they have to invest now billions of of euros To saven up their infrastructure their data While on the other hand the government with tax money is trying to infiltrate their networks and I think it's a ridiculous Story overall if you look at it so the the government has to Take back those actions in yeah, and and you need in in the United States. You need a discussion. I Would suggest how you win back the trust of European consumers and if you have these two different measures values is that the right term yeah in in looking on human rights and and privacy issues for for those computers You will have a major acceptance problems a problem With good reason I would say I mean on the other hand you should Picture this the other way around Yeah, German technique. I don't know automobiles having good standards in Europe and very bad standards Here you will have a funny discussion and And no acceptance for the product so I would suggest that the Obama administration Is is looking fast on this next issue One point maybe yeah because you ask if the if the trick the regulation of the Bulkphone data collection of US citizens will be enough. I think if this will be the only Legislative like like Step forward on all of this. I think there will be Not that much Satisfaction in the EU overall and I think we have to have debate if we want to build up a single digital market Between the US and the EU that you have to have a common playground how to protect civil liberties on both sides of the Plant against and you can't say only because it's It's a German citizen using Google mail. I can collect all the informations here in the US about him Because then we will have to debate. Okay, then German citizens won't use Any longer Google products or they won't use any longer an iPhone and iPhone 5s because over the couple of past years consumers were Looking on an iPhone and say great saying and and and at the moment they're saying, oh, it's a Really cool spying device and if this Imagination of US technology Will be there even in the even in the Future, I think that it will be really a hard fight for US companies to get back trust from EU consumers on their take on that Technology and because then they will change their behavior and we already Have a debate in the EU to start Rebuilding our IT industry and I think if there will be a step forward on all these issues like open hardware which European companies and European Universities say, okay, this is something that we want to go out with I think this could Change the field because Europe has the possibilities to build something like this all the plans were closed over the last 10 to 15 years, but we But we still have all the technicians and all the engineers to do this and and actually I don't want to Have this because I don't want to have a European technology and US technology and Chinese spying technology and I don't know what But I think if we don't want to have a situation like this Then I think we have to change something and I think really to Have a debate about how are EU consumers are Protected if they use US technology is something that we have to talk about Yeah, yeah, I would really say that there are two points which clearly says that If that would be the only thing it would not at all be sufficient. That's clear because The one thing is like Martin and Konstantin already said a scene from a European perspective EU citizens are not at all protected on the same level like US citizen and residents under these laws So it's clearly we have to talk about something here and we are negotiating by the way since years Trying to get as EU changes and use legislation on the protection legal redress possibilities for EU citizens with The concern of data processing issues But I think there's also a second point why Also US policy needs to open up for a transatlantic debate not only on trade But also on common values and standards because if you look at not only European citizens and consumers, but also US consumers demanding for Privacy protection online for example for not having everything collected and sold everywhere It's growing. It's not. I mean, it's not that people don't care about it In fact, I think that in the past for seen from from from an EU perspective at the US we talked always about the issue that US citizens only are concerned about government surveillance, but in fact it's changing people are concerned also about companies gathering personal information on them and Trading it somewhere without them Having any rights on that and I think that there should be also recognition of the need for regulation on on these things and there have been Different papers from from the White House and also from different congress members throughout the last years. Nothing really turned out to be To result in legislation There's some state legislation, but if you look to Europe We are doing now our single data protection regulation to better create a single standard for the European market at least and to better create trust of European citizens into technology from Europe into Services which are on the European market. I think that this will be also the case for US citizens and consumers demanding for so This is now a unique moment to to build on and to To try to get this already from the first moment together Because tomorrow we will talk about a race to the bottom Which is started off from the Indian market or from the Chinese market and US consumers will be very concerned about some Services or products having very low security or data privacy standards and That's an issue. I think which we should talk already now about and I would say that it would be The natural follow-up to what Obama is presenting right now I mean, it's worth noting That that so you mentioned there has been a previous administration proposal a consumer privacy blueprint that they issued several years ago that didn't didn't result in legislation and now President Obama in his speech about the NSA in January in addition to announcing certain reforms and initiatives on NSA has opened a new process Led by John Podesta at the White House to inquire about the issue of big data both in the government and the consumer and private context That process is actually soliciting comments by the end of this week get your comments in and So it remains to be seen what that process is going to result in Some viewed the timing of it to be somewhat suspect to the extent that it might be viewed as or could serve as a diversion of Attention from the NSA issue to the companies Speaking of the companies. I do want to talk about what their role in this cannon should be But talking about this sort of single digital marketplace You know consumers Tend to expect that they're going to get the same deal as everyone else And I think that goes for privacy as well as as other things And in the human rights context, there's a growing discussion about the need to establish common human rights Standards around surveillance regardless of where you are or of which country or a citizen on that point I'd point people to the To necessary and proportionate org where there are some principles the international principles on the application of human rights Communication surveillance that a great number of civil society have signed on to There are a number of principles, but the main one really boils down to mass surveillance Untargeted surveillance of many many people who are not particularly suspected of anything is neither necessary nor proportionate under human rights law But if you look at the actual laws of individual countries and We actually did a study Ben Scott a fellow at New America At the Open Technology Institute Collaborating with researchers in the UK and Germany recently did a paper comparing US law to German law To UK law and all of them shared some pretty striking commonalities. It's all in terms of intelligence authority. It's all very secret It protects Citizens and people inside of the country while extending very little protection to people outside of the country or to international communications and For you know Those who are interested in defending the US system The US at least does have a court of a kind the FISA court overseeing the surveillance activities of the NSA while in other systems including in Germany It's it's the executive or the chancellery in Germany overseeing overseeing the intelligence around so it seems like and I think there's one Concern from some of the US that well, you're basically telling us to unilaterally disarm while everyone else's laws are basically of the same structure Or even less protective, but also seems to highlight I mean and you can use it imagine that the NSA can also use the capacity of the B&D spying on American citizens I mean you could should think about that. That's including Exactly, so I mean it seems that this is a common problem and not a not at one specific to the NSA Of course, I mean that is the story and this is it's not a black-and-white Game this is what we are saying all the way even if it would be very easy You know to play this play this this blame game. I I think the question is Secret agencies in the 21st century with the technique we have today if you think About what is coming up the next five to ten years? With all the Technique and internet possibilities that are going into cars with Google glasses with Our energy system Connecting by a smart grid and so on if our secret agencies get a grip on all those Data this big data issue You will not live in a free society anymore period and you will not do this in Europe and not in in the US and so the question for me is How far can parliaments? Strengthen up the the oversight of those agencies and We need a discussion in how far We are not using those possibilities anymore even That we could do it. Yeah, so yeah should those agencies Do what they can just because they can do it and and that's a discussion We need on the values. We had the last decades together and I mean the best example for this time change we are living in or for the threat There is is that you have today China In the American newspapers complaining about their rights of being not surveilled by the NSA. Yeah They are claiming human rights. I mean and now look at their system and their relation to human rights issues and We are losing An authority there the Western world the free world is losing losing an authority there because of this scandal or however you want to call it and we have to to to fight that back and And and it's important to see the development Standing in front of our door coming up the next years Yeah It doesn't you mentioned China. It certainly does hurt American credibility to constantly be Saying China stop hacking into our system stop hacking into our systems and then of course have to be revealed that while we're hacking into their systems to or Do us being a champion of internet freedom across the world and then it being revealed that basically the NSA has You know compromise thousands and thousands of computers across the world and install botnets to you know do massive bulk surveillance It seems that if we lose that credibility and other leaders lose credibility as well We could quickly descend into For lack of a war of all against all on the internet I mean it could just end in chaos so the question becomes where does leadership come from and one particular question there is What role does the EU play in this? I mean considering that law enforcement and intelligence authority isn't actually in the EU Jurisdiction what role should Brussels be playing on this issue in terms of exhibiting leadership? I mean It's it's in fact still also a particular situation For the European integration process because national security in Europe still is completely in the hands of the Member states authorities which also makes it very complicated for us as for example the British are telling That your partners listen. We are doing what we want to do and we are not telling you anything on what we do with the GCHQ which sometimes also questions a bit in which situation we are together as a Sometimes also while you and and legal unity issue now, so but As we also have quite an advanced corporation on on security matters on also on law enforcement matters We need to talk about Come in a common European approach also and we need to talk about the possibility To find already from the beginning when we talk about common roots perhaps an approach To find come and ground with the US and with other partners we have and allies or people in Or governments which we really want to cooperate and should cooperate on these standards also as it's also about the question Which standard will be perhaps at the end prevailing in a global community? Which is still not decided as we know that we are not in a majority when it comes to rule of law based democracies I would say So we need to talk about that But I also would say that talking about the necessary and proportionate way how to control government Agencies and access to for example information, which is the big question We also should talk about and that's what a Constantine strived a bit and what leads me also to the whole privacy question in general Should talk about the way how we deal with these information because if we talk about analogies from the past Then we can talk about not allowing government agencies to access our houses But I mean if we just leave the door open all the time and let everybody go into our house That's an issue of vulnerability also when it comes to our privacy rights and when it comes to the control of Of government agencies for example, if we if we don't control what's happening We cannot really get back to it and there we come again to the point talking about the Obama initiative now if you just Say, okay, we will only occasionally access the data That's the one story But the other story is if that data then involves a huge amount of information about your life And if there is a huge amount information about your life out there then your vulnerability as citizens in a democracy is also somehow Much bigger than it has been in the past So we shouldn't stop only at the level of talking about necessary and proportionate government intrusion But we also need to talk about the control of citizens and consumers on their own lives And that's what the European Union at the moment does. That's the main task and the main Yeah, the main activity of the EU institutions with the data protection regulation Which I'm working out for the European Parliament and the European Commission is bringing forward quite strongly as European consumers Announced again and again that they are afraid about very low or different standards coming to their market And I'm very sure that this will happen also to US citizens and consumers and that we are Again and again in a situation that it's not only about The economy the transatlantic economy which has to prevail in a global economy But it's also about transatlantic community of consumers for example or citizens which have to prevail Setting their own standards in a global market. We want to prevail our way use, you know, and we can only do that if we do it On the highest level we can achieve and that's I would say at least the transatlantic level So that would be the task for Europeans to do and to reach out again and again to your policy which is of course in a difficult situation to start of safeguarding standards at the moment as legislation is unlikely to pass, but we need to talk about necessities Just want to make three small points, maybe I think the first point because you talked about this similarities between the US the UK and Germany I would Really love to see that there is also some outcry from the US that the European Intelligent agencies are doing at the end all the same stuff. I think for Germany speaking the BND as our Foreign intelligence agency. It's only maybe not doing such big programs of mass surveillance because they are not said Finance said good as maybe you as agencies But still if they could have the finances and if they would have the possibilities from a Like from there as from their smartness I think they would do the same and I think it's that we have to Dress something like this that this is something where Western democracies have to talk about in general do they are Do they have the possibility to do such types of Mass surveillance the second point is I think we have to address what you Mentioned a little bit. I would call it the public private partnership office surveillance between companies and state agencies like at the moment We see a situation in Europe, but I would also say here in the US where companies have the possibility to collect as many information about the consumers as they want all the buzzwords of big Data and so on and they have the possibility to do so because at the end The state authorities say okay, you can collect these informations But if we want to have access to this information We get the access and then you can collect all the information as you want. I Certainly see that you have a certain situation where you have to have Lawful interception and that you have to have situations where You have to go to a company and say hey, I have to know what kind of Formation is this person sharing, but I think it's at the moment completely Unproportionate at the end and that we are not talking only about I don't know Hundreds or maybe a couple of thousands of persons of interest. We are talking about Millions of consumers and I think this type of public-private partnership of surveillance has also to end and I think this can only work When it is a joint I fought on Both sides of the end and take because there are technology companies involved there are Telecommunication companies involved especially in Europe where most of the telecommunication companies are former They own companies so there are these close ties for decades, and I think this is something that we also have to talk about So that raises a lot of interesting issues in the sense of there's obviously a public-private partnership between the government and the companies You know much of the government's surveillance activity relies on the activity of the companies relies on the data that they collect at the same time there's an Emerging public-private partnership between the companies and civil society who are seeking reform of the government surveillance laws You know we've seen this on the law enforcement side of things for many years a number of groups working to reform the laws that govern Whether the government has to get a warrant before it can seize your email or track yourself on a criminal investigation The companies had not ever been very interested in diving into the national security issues even though You know we had over a decade of fights over the Patriot Act But since Snowden And and in particular responding to this serious trust problem, and I think you know the obvious economic impact They've been spurred into action They have joined with us on a variety of projects including demanding the right to be more transparent about What type of compliant what kind what types of orders they receive and how they comply with them? We've seen several of the companies come out and for the first time state as a policy matter that They do not believe bulk surveillance is appropriate and and that Congress should pass for example the USA Freedom Act So in many ways the companies have been key allies yet at the same time enablers How do you manage that tension and say for example with data protection, which is an incredibly divisive issue? Especially with the American companies, how do you how do you and like I'm asking for myself as much as anyone like How do you manage that tension? You know as someone who has you know thrown thrown tomato rotten rotten fruit at Google and Facebook? Over the years over on a variety of things, but also has to work with them to try and curb You know the authorities who can actually throw us in jail or deprive us of our rights like how do we balance that tension? Well, I mean the companies have an ambivalent ambivalent Position to what is happening several days after The Snowden files came out. I wrote to the nine biggest IT companies all American companies That they are not Worrying about lobbying any law that there is but where's their voice in this discussion? Yeah, where are they saying this is Too much and we don't want it and why are they not fighting back? What the government does so why is this secret cooperation now there are of course laws and They don't want to point out the The problem too much and the problem is from our point of view. I would say to what kind of data Certain companies collect see our jurisdictional law system in Privacy understanding Was built in the only one who is powerful enough to collect This mass data is the government. So our constitutional rights are only between the government and the The the the people the citizens And now with this new technology A company like Instagram with I don't know a handful of employees can collect data only Governance governments with lots and tons of money could collect 20 years ago. And so this ambivalent Relation of the company's collecting data and Building up a honeypot the government always wants to Get a grip on It has to be discussed and of course we are talking about limiting and regulating this Collecting of data by private companies as well because the problems are pretty similar to what we are talking With by mass surveillance, yeah the the individual rights of a person can be Yeah, if if Google hands me over all the data they have about you you can do nasty stuff with that and Yeah, a person can be destroyed by tapping just one phone call now imagine what you can do with all his email Traffic and and we have this to discuss this as well. It is actually a problem that is very deep deeply connected to to another and That's something Jan is working on the last two and a half years with the Data Regulation in in Europe I would like to add just a sentence because this this story the story I think there's a change we are in a transformation process And so we all learn as digital or as society to get into the digital age And what I learned coming from a background doing more police and judicial cooperation more all the security and home affairs stuff I can tell you that through us out the last decades. It has become quite clear that Whoever is it carries the responsibility to do effective law enforcement and security Will be required to use whatever is available To get things done, you know and Society expected from that from them So the story of some of some private company players to say Yeah, as long we just distinguish these two areas from each other and just say that government surveillance need to be restricted Traumatically, there's no harm in in having dramatic big data collection of companies And I think that's completely naive That's completely naive because of course if I'm in a security agency and I'm responsible for it I will do what is necessary to get security and law enforcement done and it will be done in the future And we will expect them to do that I think this has to be Discussed here also in your society because you cannot do this distinguish is distinguishing anymore It is it is an ambivalence because of course for years. We wanted to have both We wanted to have big data and growth and in innovation in the technology companies And that's for sure a good development from the beginning, but we on the same time want to have Good working security and law enforcement But there there is this problem at the end and that's why I think we need to make up our minds on the possibility of safeguarding for example anonymity anonymity or at least a data minimization while Exploring the possibilities of new innovation and technology technological development and I think that's possible We can see that there are already start startups doing very good things on the same level of innovation By restricting the amount of personal information for example, which is involved But we we never had the situation that all this tax money which was invested into Breaking encryption for example and into surveillance measures and everything was invested into Technical developments in safeguarding anonymity for example or into improving encryption I think there's a mindset also which has to change a bit and where we can back together into a common approach also of consumers and companies going For the common interest and that's also because what mitre has said that many businesses are also Carrying much more about the sensitivity of their own information So I want to circle back to where we began before we go to questions I'd like to go to questions soon and just talk about We began by the discussion of wanting to have a transatlantic dialogue between parliamentarians How do we do that? What should that look like who should be involved? Can we help? Yeah, that would be great actually, we are thinking about grounding making a initiative Called parliamentarians against mass surveillance With a very plain Schedule Bring those parliamentarians together who are willing to say that they are Fighting in the parliaments. They've been voted in Against mass surveillance. Yeah, not against security or Safety interests or whatsoever, but against this mass surveillance And it should be bipartisan. Yeah, not a a green thing and not a left thing or Conservative Republican tea party thing, but it should be open for each one of those who are Fighting against this and I would say it would balance out this discussion that only the executive level is is Discussing always with their point of view and their interests, which are very close to the to the agencies and I think it needs to be balanced out and we try to Reach out here to some people from the Hill we have Some meetings and hopefully people Will join us and We've talked to two parliamentarians from other countries Great Britain and So we hope that in the next month We'll get a good amount of people together to join in and that initiative Well, let let me know if there's anything we can do to help. Oh, sure. I will in the meantime Let's go ahead and go to questions from the audience Yes, good afternoon gentlemen, I'm Paul shankman from US news and world report I'd be interested to ask you about the memo that Edward Snowden wrote the European Parliament I guess that was three weeks ago now and two particular points that he made one that the mass surveillance programs of the NSA have not Prevented any major terrorist attacks and two that they're heavily overworking the analysts that are employed at the NSA Who are forced to go through all this data, which then yields very few results I'd be interested to get your opinions on those matters and in the coming weeks or in the subsequent weeks Has there been any follow-up from US officials or leadership about that issue? I Think that this has been a very important statement And we have posed these questions as the European Parliament because of also debates Which already showed that obviously we need to talk about the effectiveness also of some surveillance measures which turned out to not really Change if you look at statistics for example crime rates or clearing rates are also with regard to two attacks which Are again and again claimed to be the reason for this surveillance So I think it's important to look again at it and to look look into the fact to the facts and Into where should we invest money and effort to effectively fight a crime or terrorism? That is something which I would say has been a bit blinded out In in recent years and that's also what we as a Green Party have in Germany and in Europe again and again brought To the public debate with regard to the data retention laws Which we have in in Europe and which now are also in front of the court of the European Court of Justice and Well the advocate general for example also Referred to some data showing that obviously it's not necessary to many Cases that there has to be vast retention to data lengthy retention to data and so on but that it's more less in most cases and that has been also the Historical view back to some attacks the lack of cooperation between some agencies Especially when it's transporter cooperation if you look at the Boston issue where there have been Russian authorities Obviously equipped with information not being shared very early The same has been the case in southern France where there was an anti-semitic attack at a certain moment and There have been already information in in other agencies So I think that this will be something which we further have to debate also Besides the fact if it's even proportionate in a democratic society On that note I have to throw in a plug for the work of our national security studies program here at New America Peter Bergen and that and that group put out a study on just this issue the effectiveness of the programs and consistent with the conclusions of the NSA review group and the privacy and civil liberties oversight board did not find significant Anti-terror impact from those programs, but I also just want to make the point that that we do need to address these programs effectiveness. I Don't want I don't want us to back us into ourselves into a corner where if they prove proved effective here or there that that necessarily means They're okay I think that we need to Actually weigh the benefits and the costs and see how great are the benefits and how great are the costs and are those trade-offs Making sense and whether the cost is economic or the cost to our rights whether human rights or civil liberties And the like but the problem is that I think he is also somehow a creative interpretation of what Necessary in a democratic society for example means because throughout the last 10 15 years It turns out that in many occasions it was meant obviously to be only helpful so not necessary Absolutely, but helpful and that's a different term and we need to talk about these terms when it is about weighing the proportionality of an infringement into freedom rights and civil liberties. I think that's a huge difference if it just helped In in addition to many other Issues which perhaps were even more helpful or already were sufficient or if it was really necessary To get things done. That's a huge difference if you talk about blanket retention, especially me at one thought in in Germany the Security agencies the police are always arguing for this blanket retention Not by statistics because they know the statistics show absolutely no difference We had the blanket retention in Germany for two years until our Supreme Court called it off and in these years on the crime Salvation solution Clearance wage weren't Different from before and so they always take this single case yard in Einzelfall a drastic dramatic Example for where this could have helped To construct to construct a case where everybody with his guts would say Oh, of course, you need retention there But if you are arguing on that level, you will never be proportionate. Yeah Yeah, Jim Burr from Washington trade daily from the beginning of this these Revelations over a year ago Brussels has been very adamant that they want a written agreement with the United States I don't know if not not spying on Germans or not spying on Jim Merkel but Germany in front they wanted such an agreement no spy. Yeah, no What's the status of that and is it a lot of credibility problem here we're dealing with over a year No, it's I the US doesn't want it and they said that several times and we think it's absolutely nonsense to make Between two countries a contract Yeah, with the GCH Q and other Countries spying the same way and then exchanging inside the five eyes those those datas so this is a The whole discussion is a defense Argument of Angela Merkel why she hasn't done anything seriously in this thing and during the campaign last year She said two things to to Fight that back. She said they want this those spy agreement and they said they want the data Solution data protection On European on the European level and both things failed and so in the German debate She has nothing to show what she did Hi, thank you, Ben Hancock from inside US trade. I wanted to ask a couple questions First, you talked about kind of a transatlantic digital economy and and going beyond that and including kind of transatlantic consumers market and pervading this kind of shared Principles that we have Someone at the Atlantic Council yesterday. We're saying that She doesn't think it's going to be palatable for t-tip to not address this issue in some capacity So that's kind of linking the economic and the digital kind of human rights aspect I wonder if you agree with that. I mean the Commission has said very strongly They don't want to touch anything related to trade of privacy in USEU trade agreement Do you think that that is a forum where? The us and you should do something to maybe enhance protections for you consumers I mean, I know that's been primarily negotiated in a different lane But do you think this that maybe t-tip is one forum and also for Constantine? I wanted to ask about the feeling in the Bundestag about About t-tip as well. I know with the new coalition government my understanding is they haven't really articulated themselves The grand coalition on this EU trade agreement. Do you think these NSA revelations have Chilled that discussion. Do you think that this is becoming a serious problem? Or is this something that is just kind of blowing over and being inflated in the press? Thank you So I start with the first question which is those that don't know the acronym t-tip Yeah, that's so t-tip they transatlantic trade and investment partnership agreement Which is negotiated now between the European Union Commission and and the US government and I Mean it's it has its own story, of course And I think that these this story is told very differently by the way still in the US and in the EU and I think that there will be quite a complicated future for these negotiations at the moment because of very different issues and Unoutspoken issues When it comes to privacy and data protection, I think it's quite clear that the prospect the outlook of a mid-term development in t-tip is perhaps too long-term when you talk about Data in EU us because we already negotiate as you said in parallel Agreements and we still have or we have actually a problem already on the table, which is very acute on on safe harbor Where we need to talk about how to fix better enforcement of data protection and privacy Transatlantically and the European Parliament is pushing quite hard for it now So I don't think it would be appropriate to address it and I would say also in addition and that might be a bit of a Green viewpoint generally, but I think that it's that it's an issue I don't think that trade agreements between years in the EU will be the field where we are Negotiating our standards and values together. I think trade agreements and t-tip will be an a development of yes We want to finalize the common market But still we have a task to do in our economies and in our societies And that's building up standards and values if you just look at the trade agreement as I said they come in an animator denominator of in inside and a trade agreement is only most of Mutual recognition what it happens is that the lowest one is determining the standard, but if we talk about recreating trust of consumers into The digital market for example and setting is global standard we need to talk about a different approach and that is in my view what is also Granting more success in achieving a result if looking at the actual development of t-tip negotiations because on both sides of the Atlantic There will be so huge complications and I don't see this happening very soon and I would say it's more urgent to to discuss data protection privacy now On a transatlantic basis in parallel, so I would take it out of the trade negotiations as the commission has proposed it Or not get it in at the end. It's not in Let me just say the same part. I make it short. It's Actually, we have a very hard discussion in the Green Party about this issue I had a big party convention and it was a big issue Many views on the subject overall I think there's a discussion about you know On the European level each country has one Topic in favor which they want off the table. Yeah, so so the French they want Media of the table and The the Germans the German farmers want to take the agriculture out and the German Ecology Ecology people that they say this the soul thing is poison. Anyway, so If you start to take out things out of this treaty It's it's hard to say where where this discussion will stop and Anything is left on the table After people took those things out which are important for them. So I think t-tip has So far a bad start and I'm not so sure if it will survive this discussion because of the Problems we have in this transatlantic Trust relationship. Yeah, and and even the conservatives Are very careful now saying t-tip. That's a good thing jobs jobs jobs So I would say it's a very difficult Atmosphere surrounding for this discussion and If there's not a totally new a story to tell I'm not sure if it will Carry through clay Ramsey program on international policy attitudes I wanted to ask you whether the following is part of the discussion and discourse in Germany on The NSA etc And it is not here Because Germany has historical experience with very large very professional Security agencies and Historically there is is a tendency for a Division of such an agency to Become preoccupied with a kind of social Cartography of kind of building up and building up and building up its kilometers of files and In a way that actually starts to escape the the presumed purpose even authoritarian purpose of of the organization I think that both Stasi and security and Romania had this tendency and I don't see that the the addition of Digitalness makes a terrible difference in the current behavior of the NSA that is that it's the same kind of impulse Now this is not discussed in America, but I wondered if it might have already be something that is discussed in Germany Yeah, I think the German debate is Pretty much focused even on the last 80 years and I think We had this really Wonderful debate in Germany three years ago about Google Street view And there was I don't know the it was like for a couple of weeks. It was a huge Protest all over Germany because people doesn't wanted that their house was Photographed by Google and it was just the point because they said this is my house And I don't want that a company or a state Authority or who else takes a picture of it and I think this is what a John mentioned at the beginning this constitutional Right of informational self-determination is something I would say Germans of all ages are fighting for at the end or At least this is This is important for them, and I think this whole Lord this whole decision by the German constitutional court 30 years ago who brought up this is Informational self-determination will fight is based on German history. So yeah, we have the debate But I would say It is good that we have this debate, but I think this could be the only point Why we are against all of this Hi, excuse me and a name mark open society foundations You've mentioned several times about possible multilateral standards For surveillance digital surveillance, and I was wondering and this is kind of a big question But if you could mention some key concepts or overarching concepts that you would like to see in those standards I can do it short on that because they have been already since 20 years again and again conferences It trying to work out these standards at the end. They have been very I mean Closed it has been civil society civil liberties movements And these results what they have worked out never really get a broad public awareness now with The last eight months I would say these public awareness is there and we are talking about the way use and if Referring to what malta just said on the idea behind what self-determination in a digital society is about There is first of all some principles. I would say transparency is one of it. I need to know what's going on, you know exactly technological transparency also There has been a movement since years called show me your algorithm people have to understand What's behind what's happening behind the screen of my mobile phone? You know if I can overlook what's happening in my home, that's one thing But I cannot overlook what's happening in my pocket with such a system, you know, we need some transparency rights. We need also More less a principle of intervenability. I can object to data processing. I can say yes I want or want not to be part of information sharing I Should have the right to for example correct information, which is perhaps undue processed And I should at the end have some some rights to Yeah To say I'm I'm out of it. I'm I want to stay anonymous anonymous so data minimization as the principle I think is something which people Would help to get their self-determination in a digital society done those principles have not been discussed very broadly but they are in place since 30 40 years and in quite a lot of also international agreements already and I think we need to get that into the debates of top-level policymakers because it's part of our digitalized society and Just to add I think happened all all also also said about the necessary and proportionate principles where there was worked on over the Last one and a half years. I think these are points where you can work with and this and These are points you can bring into the political debate and and since you ask how to cooperate between this first big Corporations on this issue at all. I would say if those Corporations would really step up and say something like this is helpful and we should fight for it and We are only supporting parliamentarians of we are only supporting presidential Candidates 2016 who are signing these Principles I think this would Make a difference of all the big IT companies say, okay, we have to go a step forward. We shouldn't call Call only about transparency we also have to go this one or two steps Further down the road Okay, we have time for one or two more questions Still right there. I Thank you. I'm Andreas Ross with a Frank for tiger mine at Sightown It has been my perception in this town that even those people that would like to see the whole surveillance regime changed In the Congress for example are not exactly keen on finding And I'll put it this way foreign allies Being attacked by the other side of the aisle as being against national security interests possibly It might not even be helpful if you are considered someone who's doing something because you're German or other foreign friends may may want it so Knowing that even the German government now with Foreign Minister Steinmeier's announcement wants to treat this more and I think like you do here as a common a Common problem that needs to be figured out in a common discussion rather than just a dispute between two different Nations, have you really any? Substantial hope that you do find people joining parliamentarians from this country In your group that would actually like to tackle this as a common As a common problem facing different nations Are you hopeless or hopeful? well, of course, we are hopeful and We can't I can't tell you how this Discussion will come out But if you take a look at the discussion here in the US that has taken place And it's a bipartisan thing I'm hopefully that this will go on and And there will be the need will be seen that this is not an United States problem only But that it is in in form of international questions something you have to discuss with your partners and It's always difficult to say this without being pathetic, but If we don't want to see I mean I can see with the east-western Cold War thing ending There are people that don't see the need for a transatlantic deep relationship as it was I'm not in and in on this point of view. Yeah, I believe that this is a more important and this Community of values of special freedom democratic values is needed more desperately than ever before and if people here in in the Congress or In in all legislation Parliaments here in the US are not willing to see that you destroy trust By not caring about how people are treated It's a high price you will pay for it and the economic Problems connected to that we we try to point that out Is maybe a trigger to get people on our side because it is I mean as far as I understood and Two years ago. We were here visiting the Silicon Valley the key industry in this country is the IT industry and if You only sell your phones to in the US That's not what you need In the United States. So you need the trust in Europe to sell your iPhones there and it should be a Deep interest of all parliamentarians that are interested in the economic wealth of the US to build this trust again, and I would say that's a good Help to to join in in such initiative And I'll say that I think that's a perfect conclusion. I am afraid we're out of time, but Thank you everyone for coming and thank you for joining us today. Well, thanks so much for having