Hi everybody it's great to see you here thank you so much for coming we'll get started so that we have plenty of time for everybody to ask questions and we can I'm I'm gonna take time with you have their programs in your bio but just as a way of introduction I'm Gary Garrison I'm the executive director of theater affairs here at the Gale. This is Michael Roberts, Ira Stark, and Jodie Pietro. So would you welcome them with me please? Please turn off your cell phones or anything that makes noise please no texting or anything during the event and when we get to the Q&A I will be writing the Q&A if when you ask a question if you could stand up and ask it so everyone in the room can hear it plus all of our online viewers. Just so you know we're being broadcast across the country we now have if you don't know this or not we are the Guild has joined efforts with live live stream TV but it essentially puts things like this onto our website and also in conjunction with live streaming TV and that's our members watch it so folks in here Peoria and Hawaii and California can see this as well so this is going to be very very casual you guys as you know it was called stories from the trenches and so we just think it is always so helpful to hear how other folks have worked their way through this maze of craziness that is working in the theater I'm sure you know it's joyous and it's lovely and also comes with its own special problems sometimes so I'm going to ask some questions they're going to talk for a little while and then we'll ask you to ask them can you like so first thank you for being with us you guys for each of you what was that moment where you said ah I belong in the theater and conversely what was that moment where you I was a child actress in Pittsburgh playhouse and I was an acting major and I had seen several musicals I came in those days they require seat belts so nine people would get into a little car we don't sit smushed and drive from Pittsburgh to New York and then second act shows and so I'd seen a bunch of musicals and I wanted to write one I was just telling the guys the story that I was a junior and a young freshman composer called me and said he wanted to work with me and I thought oh freshman how would he ever know and he said let's meet and I said how will I know you when we meet he said I looked like a cross between Ringo Starr and Barbara Streisand and it was our president Stephen Schwartz so we wrote two shows together while while we were there and I was always terrified to act my sister was kind of my mom arose and she dragged me into the business and I never liked acting I was a terrible actress and so I had my epiphany about this is for me sitting in the back of the theater and I and they were rehearsing my show and the wonderful actors did one of my jokes and a big laugh and I said oh that's great man she did another one of my jokes and nothing happened I thought oh this is good I can hide in the back it's better to be a writer because I'm not up there and they don't see me with the dying job so so so that was my moment of wanting to do it and my moment of not wanting to do it was after I swore to myself I was not going to read Ben Brantley's review of the people in the picture and I didn't but I saw my family's face the next morning I just said I don't think I want to stay here anymore I'm going home but of course I'm back working on another show so I know the moments the moments that I that I actually would have quit was when I was first starting out I had a full show sort of playing around either like a basement here in New York for a weekend or something and it was always a point for a couple years about 15 minutes before the show goes up and I honestly felt if I could get on stage and say look I'm sorry you all came here tonight I will refund all your money and promise to never write anything ever again I really had that feeling for about two years no matter what I did and then of course I used to sort of you know put in the bathroom and rub up or something but I was probably someone actually took me up with that offer probably convinced me and I don't know when I but I have to say the moment I got hooked when I was probably about 10 or 11 years old and my parents looking to see 1776 and the lights came up on the Continental Congress right around the block where the theater was and I was just whatever that theater magic was I was like I just remember I remember where I was just sitting in the mezzanine and the lights came up and I thought this is for me I don't know what this is did you know you wanted to be a writer at that point or I always like to write I was like any writer knows you know you're always a writer who knows why you're writer but you're always a writer I think writers are always a big step back from society I think we're just observers by nature so I've always been like that you know so I didn't know if I wanted to be a writer but I started writing in high school and that sort of but I don't have the personality to be an actor so I find actors are very unguarded they have great emotional access and I'm very guarded so I think that's what makes me a writer I would never expose myself like that on a stage and then it's interesting that you can tap into whatever that is that you put the guard up in front of yeah when I do I do it in the privacy of my own home where I sweat pants with my dog and you know that's when I tap it I don't tap it you know but like you know I'm standing in the back for me I came to I probably much later than you guys did my brother two years younger than me was from a baby a musical theater fanatic and cycle media of the genre and I like rock and roll and I like classical and I would constantly yell at him to turn that crap off and I slowly realized that you know you know hi but we argue about it and I'd say all this musical theater stuff is crap I said except for 1776 and he said and he's like we all agree on that that was the anomaly that was the one that got through that was actually good I said that one and company those two and then each time was that one company this one and I realized after a while the only thing I didn't like was bad musical theater but you know the good stuff is just stunning and then for me because I've all my training is classical and all my early work is in rock only like I used to tour like for rock acts and what happened is I wanted to write something sophisticated and back in the day that could still be pop songs you know Sammy Conn whatever it was very sophisticated by the time I came with age there was no such thing as a sophisticated pop song anymore so I said well what am I going to do being lyricist and composer and it seemed that theater was God bless it the only place where you can still do that you know so that was it that's so that's how I came to it it wasn't emotional or visceral it was it was almost a series of choices the time I feel like I don't belong when my friends who are television or film make a lot more money than me that would be it I don't have any regrets yeah sure so you three represent what I think it's fascinating today and and we were so happy that you guys were coming because you represent off Broadway off Broadway Broadway television so I'm curious how you have seen the I don't mean this to sound as broad as it's going to sound so let me just say it then I'll try for you how you've seen personally and then professionally the world of theater changed since you got into it in other words personally it's one thing when you have a head off Broadway or you film or television show or something on Broadway that's a personal journey but how have you seen that change for you and how do you see that change for the rest of the community as well the big thing I think since I started which was 15 20 years ago now I mean I started in not not regional Broadway but commercial off Broadway and there's no more commercial off Broadway I mean I really show called I love you perfect now change which was for people singing with two musicians and someone raised $400,000 for it and you know it ran on a small weekly nut and it ran for 12 years and that doesn't exist anymore but doesn't exist even and there will be a time where straight plays would you know would go from like players horizons or whatever the B success there and move to commercial off Broadway run that economics aren't there and that's that's a shame because I mean I had three or four off Broadway for productions of various excessive but you know I was able to start I was able to learn and keep learning and meet people and actors and directors and producers but that's not there I mean that's sort of which I think it's a real you know and you see that primarily as an economic yeah yeah and I think oddly what happened was 15 20 years ago they really the whole I love New York and the Broadway producers got together and branded Broadway as a great thing and and also what happened there's so many discounts to Broadway shows it's just as inexpensive to go see a Broadway show now with discounts as you know a Broadway show so yeah I think there's a bunch of reasons but any producer will tell you if you're going on Broadway now you're doing a very simple show you know with a very low low you know weekly and you know tiny shows tiny musicals now move to Broadway plays you know move to Broadway where years ago they just would have moved you know to bigger house to bigger house probably and right you know shows I think like let's try to Jones would have ran for you know a long time of Broadway three years ago I'm the oldest one on this panel I am the baby at the group when it comes to writing kids theater because I've written for television I've published nine books and I've written in every format I started out as a joke writer too and so and my experience wasn't typical because I opened a show my first musical opened on Broadway and the reason it did was because the producer went to Donna Murphy and Donna Murphy has a six year old child and she did not want to leave New York and luckily for us Todd Haymes wanted to be in business with Donna Murphy so he read the script and said okay this is a good combination I will do it I would never do that again my next show is going to open in Belfast I don't know or Mars because we didn't have the time that you have had you know to be a probably had to to be elsewhere and to say we need a song there what is that song which we actually do do it one point Andy Blankman came up to me said this whole section doesn't work we were already in rehearsal and Mike Stoward composer wasn't even here I was here by myself and I ran back to the hotel and called him and said okay here's what I think the idea is and he came in two days later and we sat on at a little keyboard and wrote the number but we really needed that time even though we had several weeks of previous it's just not enough I mean we needed to be able to refine it so I will say that round about was amazing Todd Haymes is fabulous to work for and he's very thoughtful and really gave us as much preview time as he could and even cancel the matinee one day we needed more time but it wasn't enough so and we needed a commercial producer as well so we had one but she was very inexperienced and so I loved the show and the critics didn't like us but the audiences loved us and it was a wonderful experience for me but I'm a lot smarter now for the next one Michael um for me the way it's changed when we did got the musical in 2003 there you know I will be purple still going there was as just said a an off-broadway that was roughly sustainable and happy that went to it and so that it's that was in and in itself I am producing or I have written a show for off-broadway and plays off-broadway and then it'll get published and whatever I think the whole purpose of off-broadways changed now when we did the parties this season although we had every desire to make money and be a huge smash from forever no we knew that to some extent off Broadway is really the world's largest backers audition and what it really is is a branding you know because off-broadways itself is a very hard bothersome thing even word off-broadway you know I don't know something smells off this feels off research Broadway off-broadway used to mean edgy and interesting and small and different right now it means not as good as probably right and off-broadway actually meant really yeah experimental and edgy and dirty some way to get to it yeah could you eat before you got there it's okay I'm reading in the theater with you yeah so I this is one of those crazy questions but if you if we could this is a fun question if we could just gather all the producers in this country and one room yeah and you had their undivided attention for five minutes what might you say to them figure out a way to run small to have plays and smaller musicals run in New York where they don't have to make $400,000 a week to like figure out a way to actually do like off-roading like have theaters that we can run off-road musicals for six months and not charge a lot and have to be successful and does it have to be in New York can it be in Chicago can it be in Los Angeles or the Oreo wherever it happens to be is this is a little potential question for my but is are we still at the center of the universe here or is it all over the country is good theater made all over the country of course oh I think great theaters made all over the country it's interesting oftentimes like artistic directors of theaters seem to look to what's happening in New York for what they're going to produce whichever regional playwright can tell you but I mean there's great theater and great writers anywhere but you know also the development process of actually producing writers is so important because you can workshop something to death and you can be reading to that I mean actually taking a chance at producing a show in a smaller venue that doesn't have the financial pressure of you know even a big subscription right this is actually jumping back to the earlier question because one of the things that I have seen over the last five years particularly are these shows that have a much bigger life say in Chicago or Los Angeles or Atlanta or Boston whatever tends to be and find their way to New York and we're all surprised really out of that there's great theater being made all over this country back to the producer's question Iris so my thanks if you could gather if we could gather all the producers in the room at the same time and you had five minutes so if they're out of time I can I keep going back to the development process I think that's what's so wonderful about the theater that it's alive and I mean believe me if I could rewrite by not with beaches right now I do it you know because I think of things as life moves on and life changes and I want to be able to have those moments to see actors on stage and to learn from them I mean I'm stunned that what the actors bring to it I'm I'm thrilled what they bring to it we were just working on the scripted features in musical and I and I was talking about with my fellow girls I said let's not tell them what we think they should do here let's see what they do because I'm so curious and I would tell them give us more development time and it doesn't have to be here I don't care where it is what I would if this room was filled with producers I would ask what I have asked the producers on the grace you know they've heard gracefully and willing the answer which is I was like what can you tell me what can you teach me I think that nowadays more so than ever we need to follow some models that exist in other aspects of the entertainment industry we were talking earlier we're talking about when that middler has her production company and every writer after a while in LA has you know partners with the production company and every celebrity you know so I think what they've gotten very quickly we haven't is that it's not writers over there producers over there actors over here I think that writers need to be more proactive and they need to learn the business you know and that they they need to be entrepreneurial so I would ask I would ask the to answer your question I would just ask the producers what can you tell me about what you know what is the next pile of poop I'm about to step in you know what am I about to do wrong well speaking of I mean it's you know this is stories from the trenches so I'm curious to know if we can just go back in time or yesterday or two weeks ago or ten years ago what's the one thing you wish somebody would have told you that you didn't have to learn the hard way well you know all the battle scars sort of make you smarter and stronger and better all those cliches are true I've worked with an inexperienced producer once which I thought was going to be great and was a disaster and then I you know because he was inexperienced and this would be a disaster in any business he was inexperienced and he thought he knew everything so he listened to people who were experienced I was so happy to be produced this is also something which I learned I was so happy to be produced I was like thank you for doing everything so I just sort of went along even though I've read flags going on in the back of my head saying I don't know what I'm doing here and this doesn't seem right and I would also say you know the one which I actually wish I did know earlier is you're the writer you're even if it's a big production you're an essential vital part of the process and you can always speak your mind in any aspect and and you have to feel like you've been heard in a way that even if I'm not listening to you at least know you know as a writer I always say that anyone can tell me anything so I've learned on production I can tell anyone anything it's interesting they should say that because I think for all of us everybody here we all get so I get so caught up in someone else's passion about my art so I'm so thankful that somebody like something that I wrote and that I saw I've lose my good sense right at some point you know I get caught up in their passion and not and I'm not getting their experience or or like you said all the flags go off but I just jump over them please them because they like you and the deuter's producing you so you want to please them and you know they're you know they're not doing you a favor they think you're talented you have something to say and of course they don't want to work with someone who's difficult but at the same time you can't it's your work and you can't you know you can't be a pushover and I find a few smart things to say people generally not all you would like to hear them but you know you can't mistake their passion for correctness that's the number just because they love your work it doesn't mean they're correct on all the decisions that they make sure I learned this I'm gonna make this late in life career change stick I only want to write because if you are writing a script for film or television and they have changed as they want to make they don't they may give you one shot but in the end they'll bring somebody in I mean I hadn't TV shows I had my name on them and if I sat there with a script there was barely anything in it the show that was a year that resembled my spirit that's a nightmare so I learned to be an answer because this is you know stories in the trenches what is maybe the one thing that you wished you somebody would have told you oh that you didn't have to learn the hard way that you never have enough money I think so I think this sound like Jack Welch or something I really do it's that well we went through this with Farties we were lucky to get almost all great reviews and we had a great show that one that's musical French and we had a lot of for lack of better word mojo going what we didn't have was a reserve ticket sales got better and better each week and just before we thought it's gonna be self sustaining we ran out of so that one and that's again that's it sounds like a producer's lesson but leave me it's a writer's lesson to whatever you have it's not enough you know there's there have been a lot of people who have been talking about this in the chat rooms and on message boards and on the internet and magazines and like which is it feels like as we kind of progressed to this line that and this profession that more and more plays the musicals are being written that in other words that you know you have a play that goes up you have a musical that goes up and there are 12 minds that are all working on it and does the writer get lost in that process or can the writer sustain his or her and who would do 12 other minds directors, choreographers, dramaturgs, choreographers, you know, everybody like I can I mean if you're doing if you don't want to collaborate do not write a musical because it is the depth you know write a novel write a straight you know I always say what serves me to play the musical in a play when you're in the rehearsal hall there are just so many less people in the room it's you it's the director and the actors that's pretty much it you do a musical you suddenly have a choreographer they have an assistant you have a director you have a musical director you have to design is more important it's all collaboration I mean I don't know if that my experience of musicals haven't been in my case I've been written by committee but there's certainly more people giving you input and there's certainly more people that I have to collaborate with that if a design is bad in the musical that could derail you so you sort of being is it easy for the you Joe to hold on to yourself as primary in that process with all those or or is it necessary to be primary that process yeah I think it is but I'm a good director in a musical it's sort of the general especially a bigger musicals you know the general the ship but I think you need a good director who sort of brings everything together so yeah but I mean the writer you know it's like anything good you know you could have the best director scene designer you have a valid show you're the biggest star in your death I mean it's you know I've been many times so yeah but if you're lucky you get to work with smart people you respect and they respect you and you can trade opinions and then your work sort of gets better yeah but you shouldn't you shouldn't write the worst kind of thing you write to do is writing just from notes like you know if you don't feel it and someone's just giving you notes or pressure like just to write you know you need to understand it and believe in it to be right because I've also been on the pleaser side well I'll just rewrite this person's putting a lot of money in my show bad idea but I do what they say that a camel is a horse that was made by a committee television is so bad because so many people get to decide before it goes up and I was just telling the guys a story about Gary Marshall who directed the film of beaches and he said to me when you have a writer a director a producer a studio and a star none of you are making the same picture and of course everybody brings their own ideas to it so I think for me the answer was I had a wonderful director who I loved and you know as you know that there's a spec business who worked for years and years together became a brother to me who's the director of masterclass and I trusted him and I and then and then the rest of the team was Mike Stoller for God's sake I mean he's just the great tinsmith of the world and such a sweet lovely man already but were so talented and then who came on board but Paul Gemini another fabulous human being and again a joy to work with him and by the way Paul Gemini said to me you can write a better way than that I knew he was telling me the truth and that I was taking advice from somebody really smart and so I did it I mean I think what I'm trying to say is if as best one can surround yourself with people who really believe in and then when you get advice from them you'll know to take it to heart that you're not just making something different instead of making better sure about writing my committee and collaboration I don't get a sense yet at least in the work that I've done that that we've lost our as writers lost our place in the power structure what I do get a sense of is that more or less you tend to try to guess who your audience is and you write to them and then that invisible collaborator who you're taking notes from imagining what their notes would be you know saying I personally don't think that this is funny I personally don't think this is good they're gonna love this it doesn't make me laugh and they're gonna love it and it's always always wrong which doesn't mean if it makes you laugh and like them laugh either but the other way it's always wrong no go back I reset was which was that it's actually true it's like work with people who respect as it falls every time he gives you thought you know those guys giving you thoughts are smart and the way because I've been on the opposite side trying to find those people is especially when you start with like a director your primary collaborator on it first thing always ask them if they're interested what do you think of the play like do you love it do you think it's pretty good and conversely what would you change about right but don't don't particularly early on in our career we walk into situations where we're given a director we all have a choice to choose but then you know what go out for go out to dinner have a beer go say what do you think of the play what would you change about it be honest with them this is what I think of my play this is what I'm hoping to achieve you know what's your vision for it if you ask those questions and because I was once in situation where the musical we were on the pirate a British director who actually didn't really like the musical and wanted to do a dark series thing and we really wrote a comedy and it was not fun and I said I'd never asked him what he thought of the play and he didn't like it he was gonna make it important and that was a disaster but I always ask even you know sort of very established people what do you think it is right I don't need to hear you know oh my god it's the best thing ever but I need to hear oh I really like it and this is what I hope we can accomplish with it so what happens if you take your director out to dinner or or an avid actor or whatever happens to be and you find out they are on the left side of the story and you're way over on the right side of the story what would you personally do well I wouldn't ever ask an actor like an actor because you hire the third star which is a very specific thing like an actor you hire so you audition them and you're like oh yeah they get what I'm doing but a director if they if they really I would say you know I would go to the producer or the theater and say you know I'm not sure if this is gonna you know and say what this is I'm working on this this is what I'm doing or talk through that director as much as possible I mean this key notes collaborations communication but it's usually important it's such a marriage director I mean I wrote a very Jewish play and my agent introduced me to a client of his who's an Italian Catholic Lenard Folia and I sit down a bunch of him and he says those three generations of women that's my mother my sister and my niece I know them as well as you do he said I've seen my mother but I think my mother my sister have arguments over my niece and I heard the things they've said to each other and it's all in there I get it completely and I thought okay he gets me and he gets his piece and he proved me again and I was ready about him so do you guys ever I'm sure do you have others one and if you do what do you do get beyond it I know it's a tough question because it happens at different stages for different reasons right but is there anything in particular there's something that triggers it for you is there something that I don't have writers block I have I don't write for a couple weeks like if I'm orchestrating and you're not using that mental muscle then you know that the first day of writing especially lyrics for me first day of writing lyrics are going to be utter horror you know they get to be like oh my god I thought I know how to do this but that's the only thing for me as long as I can do that first day of being horrible I get to the better stuff usually I always give young kids and the mods book called bird by bird talks about writing and one of the things she says is allow yourself to write a shitty first draft you know so I just go in and I say to myself this is going to stay but I don't care and I just start doing it usually really does it's pretty good but it's okay because if you start you know I still write along a lot in my hand you just start your hand up across the page something happens eventually you don't find yourself stuck though or I'm stuck a lot but I just push on push through yeah well that's what you collaborate for too you know especially for the big issues plotting and form and all that you know I know we all work with collaborators when Charlie Shulman and I were working on the parties who'd be you know he'd walk around waving his arms and you know saying but he can't do that and that loosens up a lot of what you're thinking yeah I'm working on the beach with my friend and over 50 years I went to college with a wonderful playwright Tom Thomas and he's so thorough and he's so organized and I am the crazy one I say when did this happen and then this would happen and then this would happen and he kind of pulls me back to earth and blaze it all out so that we find out the order all those crazy things are happening but yeah it is it's great if you have a clever again they trust two things I was I first thing is do I give myself permission to my family I'm like this is gonna be better the same exact same thing I'm gonna write a draft and sometimes it's terrible but oftentimes yeah and if I'm really blocked I mean I do believe in like getting up you know go out go for you know do something else get you know sometimes just a good night sleep does it but also tell young writers if you're working on something and you can't write everything trying to write every day you can't give yourself make yourself sit in front of the computer or whatever ten minutes and you can't do anything but right you can't do anything ten minutes if you don't write that's fine if you start something that's fine but just sort of give yourself and off you know when I do that it's like a trick to play yourself right well more after three minutes I'm gonna try something you know but sometimes it is and you sort of a lot oftentimes oh this is actually you know what always works for me I don't know anybody else does this as lyricist we're always trying to be clever and poetic you have heightened language so I'll sit down and write a song and the first thing that comes into my head are all these clever or what I perceive clever and at the end of it when you're getting this jumble this kind of roadblock stuff I'm like oh what's the song about what's the song about and never leave the song will be about you know grow up you little whatever so I'll put I was the title song for all of you little blah blah blah and I'm like okay now I know what songs about and you just kind of clarify the whole thing for you you know the direction you're going in so sometimes it makes me not even making it simpler just saying wait what is it that I'm doing helps me at wonderful screenplay writer I know Mark Norman wants me just go back to the characters go back to the characters don't tell you what they want do you guys think that you can we all have these in our doors they go back to something that you began 10 years ago or 15 years ago or five weeks ago or or does it should it stay locked in that time because there were a lot of circumstances that led you to that moment to start creating that that song that we're at that story that play that musical that whatever when I was 16 I wrote songs with Michelle Brown and she wrote Dangerous Beauty and we used to write shows for Jewish organizations and her mother became our manager and we go around to perform these shows and she just sent me four mp3s of four of the songs with a guy that we know singing them and I love them I thought I'm gonna hate them and I love them it was so much fun not that I'll ever do anything but maybe I think you can go back I think there are certain sparks it may you may not go back and say word for word I'm gonna bring this out but I think like if it's I mean it's a big difference between five weeks and 15 years I mean but you know but 15 years ago like I I think what's not good because you actually mentioned which I was about myself all the time but beaches like I'd like to go back and rewrite it but in an odd way you can't because you're a different person 15 you know two years later like I like everyone's early play you just fix this like and I try and I can't because I want to redo the whole thing I want to take Joe today not Joe from 15 years ago and do it and I think that's sort of a bad thing I do think an idea that's like the thing is if you approach an idea you have sitting around for 15 years you're just gonna approach it in a different way you know if you've never if you ever really haven't done much with it and that would be more interesting at the same time they're no rules you know sometimes so people take some 20 years to get there you know right about old material oh I don't know I mean I've tried to pull certain songs out of the truck and insert them into something else it's I don't know if it's obvious to everybody else it's always obvious to me and I do think they have what nicely could be called a patina but more likely would be called a bench to them they're really they do they do because you're younger and you're not as polished you're not you're not as good what you are is more adventurous adventurous and you're you're a little bit wildly like oh my god why did I yeah he's fine exactly spontaneous because you haven't you know learned what works so that's good but that's different that's you can take a lesson from that but that doesn't mean that this in that thing you wrote when you were 14 is really the way to go I don't think we're going to be seeing the shows I wrote but the only thing I will say is because I didn't start I didn't think about running the musical till I was 32 or so so I learned so much about music and about many things before I first wrote anything that I have the luxury of not having to look at those things I wrote when I was 18 you know I'm saying so I would be very when I do have early stuff though it's just not as good this is my last question and it's here goes so you know before you guys have whatever whatever you consider to be your success and there were there were perhaps and I'm not sure so for all of us who are waiting for that thing to kick for us how do you use this how did you sustain yourself or how do you sustain yourself now waiting for the next thing to come along but is this a time it's sometimes it can be a real you know writing is to sell a school you buy yourself and then trying to push a career up a hill is sometimes I think it always has to come to the writing like you have to have joy in the actual act of writing and if you don't don't be a writer and then you know because it's just too frustrating it's too lonely the rewards are too slim it's you get rejected many many no matter who you are many many more times when you get succeed so you need to find joy in the writing and you need to find and I also I think if I've had any success it's because I love it love it love it I don't always love the business of it but I love sort of writers black I've all those things but when it's working it's just phenomenal for me and I always keep educating myself I'm a lifelong student of literature and theater and I always try to get better that's you know I had a one show called all shot got one really several years gonna have to get all this music I was gonna be thinking this is my thing this is it and it wasn't and it was you know it's devastating so depressing and I thought well everyone what everyone expects me now is to sort of go like my wounds and write alone one thing for two years I said I'm gonna do that and I had a some dark dark nights and things but after a while I didn't know what I am going to double down and write twice as much and write different things and really try take that masterclass I had in writing a big musical and figure out what I can do next and I spent really two years where no one was that interested in my work you know but just writing writing writing and finding pleasure in that and just trying to get better and then I suddenly had all these things that suddenly started getting done but it was only because I you know because I said I because I consider myself a lifelong student it's so interesting that you say that job because you know I I have a dear friend who had a show over here recently in New York and it's been a long time coming and part of the reason why it's been a long time coming is my sense is that my sense is that he doesn't really enjoy writing but he enjoys having written and and there's a huge difference because you're waiting for that carrot that opportunity that phone call that letter that whatever happens to be I mean obviously he likes writing but I don't think he loves it and that he's doing it to enlighten his life regardless of whether or not it's produced or I don't be talking to myself but I'm not produced as well right one of the things that I was made me so happy about giving up acting and turning to writing was that the other thing I realized aside from the fact that that I was better at it than I was at acting was that I could do it every day and I didn't have to wait for someone to call me to audition or it wasn't up for something and I loved that and I do and I you know I people said oh you're so disciplined and I say no I'm not disciplined I just don't do anything else I don't have any hobbies I don't play golf I don't play tennis I can't cook my husband folks every house thank God or he's starved to death and and that's what I love to do and I think that's the answer you better love the process I was just a Carnegie Mellon it's called now and I was talking to the playwriting workshops and I said I can't say this on camera said you better at being wanted because that's what gets you there the guy getting off the bus after you may have more talent but if you want it more we'll keep doing it keep doing it eventually something will happen I'm telling it to you I ultimately I write for myself I mean really that's who I write for because it's you know I've got to have my way I have to make myself laugh I have to make myself cry to get back out of it there I do it really really for me but it's just you know after your 10th year of doing it or whatever it helps me it's just hard to push that rock up that here the people in the picture I remember actually started with a call to me from that member who said Iris write me a musical and and I wouldn't and the reason I remember the year was I was traveling with my daughter who was born in 1985 and she was we were celebrating her 10th birthday she's turning 27 in June so people in the picture took me 15 years to make happen so you know for me what sustains me is that I don't I think it's the realization that the world and I can't speak for musical theater by large the musical theater world we live in a project has a gestation period that is infinitely longer than it used to happen you just can't go back and look at the theatrical index from 1962 and say boy yeah the show last year is show this year it's not it's not bad anymore it can't work that way financially can't work that way in terms of bureaucracy and infrastructure because back then of course you had one or two producers and I'm going to do this if they assembled the team they just did it now everything seems to be has tentacles different places which is one reason why I went to produce it because I wanted to at least be one of those guys who keeps the ball in the field I lied I actually have a quick question because we talked about this in my office and I just bear with everybody with what what have you seen recently that it doesn't have to be in the you know be anywhere in this country anywhere and where what have you seen and that you're really excited about that you can't wait for the rest of the world I love Jesus Christ Superstar I was telling you just because I have only seen one of the production I always love that music I saw one of the production I thought this is a bad show and a good music that show then I saw the new one on Broadway and I was watching and realizing I know every lyric to this show I didn't realize it I thought it was just rock-and-roll theatrical excitement you know perhaps it's not the most learest way of telling that story but I knew the story so I was fine and I just thought it was musically correct I saw 4,000 miles yesterday and I loved it as I said to Gary maybe it's because I'm a grandmother and I fantasize of my grandson show up at my door someday but I think what I loved about it was that it was so real and so touching and I felt as if I was peeking in someone's window watching your story it was a wonderful lesson in writing about from a wonderful young writer which was great I've been orchestrating so it's horrible to say so about I've seen nothing but I've seen you know and I wish I could get out I mean I live in the city I wish I could just go out more I mean of course you know I saw 4k vessels just I mean you know when when the artiste was running of room 45th Street so next door was Adams family down the street was 4k vessels and across the street was follies and I'm like screw it just why am I even trying but you know the 4k vessels just breathtaking you know I'm just kind of combining a lot of story things that we share today but I saw Adams family on Broadway and then you know those guys took it down and they reworked it and they put it before they took it out on the road and a good friend of mine in the show and I went to see him in the show in Hartford and it's crazy different it's it's may is first of all it's just kind of fascinating to have seen it on Broadway and then to see it out on the road somewhere and I didn't you know I expected to see what I saw a year ago and to know that they had reworked that show and and but really reworked it in a way that you can't always wish that you probably could you know to clarify story or songs or character or intention or whatever it happens to be I was really kind of blown away from the experience of it it was it was kind of right but you know so often those shows come down off of their runs wherever they happen to be Broadway off Broadway off Broadway with friends they're picked up their push into the universe and there's just again there's just not that time because they want to get them out while the name is still the name or the people are still the people or whatever happens to be in this was a real case I have to say for taking a serious look at what you learned in a run of that show before you put it back out it was kind of extraordinary hey guys so I just thought we've been in the living room which I like to come out in is there something that you would like to know I mean what would you give me questions that you'd like to ask these fine folks about any not a question I just want to encourage everyone to go once I that's what I was blown away by the workshop why do a question I'd like to know about your question about producers I'd like to know if you're curious about what I'd be curious to ask them is what they think of role in the premieres and how this might help all the previous where you mean where they keep the previews going for weeks and weeks which is a terrific thing for all of the rights but it depends like a brother's a Broadway period is more weeks so you need to have your act together before you get there I think she's saying rolling the premieres which is the same time it's it's opening in Luna stage there are there are five other premieres that are slotted out away from it I would be I would talk to those producers more of that as well as more co-productions the good thing about co-production is it gives you a chance to see your work produced by good people from an audience and then hopefully you get a chance to work on it before the next leg of it I mean the best of me co-productions are you know it happens one month and then you actually have rehearsal a little bit more and you have to have a little time to sort of you know get into a place two theaters do it two different theaters so it starts in theater A and sometimes I give you a little time to sure sir I certainly have several lines like this doesn't play I've been meaning to write for a long time I'm just waiting like it done with what I'm doing now to really do it so but I find I need to have something in me and to think about it for a long time and I have I have to want to want to can't wait to write it like what I hate start we start something I don't know if I really like this idea like I have to want to write at least and explore what it is well as I mentioned for me you know I started out in the theater I was I majored in acting and wrote the varsity show and then I moved out to LA for what I thought was the summer and stayed there for 25 years I always say I took a wrong turn at Hollywood but the musical started for me when Beth Midler called me and I decided that I really wanted to go back to my first love which was musical theater and I grew up in a household where they spoke more English than English and I madly loved the language because I feel as if it's it's why the Jewish people have survived because it's so fraught with humor and so I decided that was the right project for her because I started watching the Yiddish films and they did what she does which is turn your emotions on a dime one minute you're laughing with crime so so that and so I wanted to write about that and I couldn't have put the 15 years and believe me if I didn't love love love that project and then somewhere along the line a friend said to me what do you do as a musical such a perfect musical because the main character is a singer and I said oh yeah that's an interesting idea and I pulled out my contract with Disney from 1984 and as it turned out in those days the studios weren't yet rating the catalogs to see what they could turn musicals on my own the stage rights and I did a little dance around my office that's my next project but it really has to be something that I'm passionate about my next project after this is going to be about Jerry Malibun a late jazz saxophone player who was a personal friend of mine because I feel so passionate about that I really be turned on otherwise you don't want to go sit in that room all day Joe I know you have nice work we can get it you're working on beaches and Michael you're working on we had a show a Charlie Shulman and I called my American family which is now all tell me all we were doing it down in American University and right now I mean that's the next thing coming up I really can't tell when because we're working on the British production of the parties the West End production parties which is coming in next season so I'd be kind of foolish to turn my attention away from that yes sir I'm just wondering if agents were important in the development of your career or if you basically had to hustle yourselves and they just sort of negotiate you're you like I'm like a great agent and I find you have to always it's always about you you know I don't know anyone has a plan about their agent so it's always about you right it's always about you getting it out there meeting people you know going to theaters figuring out what type of show they like see if you're writing the play that matches but I think at the end of the day agents are helpful at a certain extent but you know I bet I've got I've gotten so many productions of my shows from having from other plays I've written is like a theater producing and saying oh we like that you have something else you know that's just been my experience you always are selling yourself no matter you know maybe it's not like that but everyone else sort of has to remembering to if your show gets picked up by publisher you have a publisher who in essence is really what you want you want more productions than if you weren't so with golf which is with Samuel French you know they I don't know how much they pushed it but I mean over 50 productions and it's been another language and so I have to certainly give them credit for putting it out there into the world and so for me that relationship is infinitely more important than any relationship I've had with an agent I just want to respond to tell you that I you know I when I first started out I was with William Morris and they dropped me as a client after about three years of being with William Morris and I got picked up by somebody else and somebody else and I jumped over and then she died and you know it's just like I had to be Oscar who was an extraordinary moment but she passed away and so I've had them and I've not had them by the way and I just want to echo what these guys have said which is nobody works harder for me then then me and and because it's it's no I cannot make it as important to anybody but myself so and then if I find that I'm in trouble or I need help or whatever there's the gill and there's an entertainment lawyer if it really comes down to that so because I think we use the agent thing as reasons why we can't get sometimes I have used it as I can't get somewhere because I don't have an agent I just don't know that that's true anymore in this day and age it's can I get into heart from stage no but believe you me there are plenty of the places in the country that are not hard for the stage I was curious and some of you if not maybe all of you came into the theater portion of it not straight out of college working as a composer or as a novelist and other than getting a phone call from that middleer is there what was some of the ways that you you know really you know not being the college intern getting into it like how did you come in cold it's very curious I think I have my brother who I mentioned earlier he and I are very close he worked for who at that time was Richard Holmes manager and he worked in the office it was one of his first jobs at school and he said oh you have to come meet Rupert one day you guys have the same synthesizer and this is long long going up where you know that was like you know that was really a bonding thing because you say well how come that you do this and all that anyway so I think it's when solitary confinement was playing with Stacey Keech that my brother said oh you have to come meet Rupert and of course I think Drew which is coming back right is just one of the most stunning scores ever it's genius anyway so I was very excited to meet Rupert so I went to meet him and we talked for a couple of minutes about the Cork M1 which is synthesizer and then we were very loosely in touch and then I remember that his assistant I got married left to go to LA and so I wrote to him and I said look you know I'm a fan you know I'm a nice guy I would love to help you in any way you know and he being such an incredibly nice person said sure come on up let's talk about it and so I worked with that's I got to know him and now not every I can't imagine everybody says giving in generous is him but I worked four years writing music for the TV show remember when that he created we did a Dennis Leary film together mostly him but me you know picking up you know what I could do and so I did come at it in a strange way that I couldn't have done and I had already had a career by then mostly touring as a rock musician and so I had I was making a living already but that was my entree into something like that I think he saw me as someone who wasn't back green who actually had a little experience well I dropped that here we go again with me dropping out of acting and and then I start I wrote a bunch of spec scripts and I knew an agent and and he got the spec script to George Schlauder who was then the producer of Latin and he hired me as one of a whole staff it was the 70s and he hired me as one of a whole staff of women writers he was trying to jump on the feminist bandwagon and he would be the executive producer and so I was one of a half a dozen writers and and the stars of the it was called the shape of things it was just a one-off kind of a special and it was Phyllis Diller, Brenda Vaccaro, Joan Rivers, Lee Grant and the choreographer was a woman and the producer the director at any rate I wrote a song lyrics to a song with Marvin Laird and it was about a Jewish girl who falls in love with Henry Kissinger and it was called Oh Henry and George Schlauder loved the song and the show didn't go anywhere we just did the one special and he called and said I'm about to produce three they used to call them specials I don't know what they called them. I said one for Doris Day, one for Diana Ross and one for Cher which one of you interested in and I used to watch the old Sunny and Cher show all the time and I loved her I just thought she was fabulous so I said I want Cher so he said you got it this you know so this agent friend of mine made the deal and it was a special it was right when Sunny and Cher broke up he did his TV show and then she did hers and I worked on her first one and it was the cast was Bet Middler Elton John and Flip Wilson and Cher it was and I was the only woman in the room and it was 1974 or 5 and believe me those men did not want me in that room and they smoked cigars and they talked dirty and I loved everything. It couldn't get rid of me I just thought it was so great in fact I would come home and I'd say they're paying me to do this I can't believe it I can do it for free I loved it so much and I really learned under fire and then what happened was after the second year suddenly Cher fired everyone and she just kind of disappeared where he was and the guys were terrified they used to push me into her dressing room and say find out what she'll talk about and she'd say this script sucks and she'd throw it across the room and so they were terrified for instance I was the only girl they would send me in there and she would tell me what she wanted to talk about so she fired everyone and she disappeared no one knew where she was and the guys made a little miniature golf course that went through all the offices and I wrote a cheek on the man episode while I was waiting and this shows you how far back it goes and one day she called me and I said what's going on and she said I'm firing everyone but you and Bob Mackie and Earl Brown Earl Brown was the guy who wrote the special material and so it was it was a surrealistic experience I went back to work and everyone was gone from the executive producer down to the coffee girl except for me Bob Mackie and Earl Brown and then they brought in a whole new staff and we started again and she went back with Sonny on TV so for two years while she was pregnant with Greg Allman's baby and she was on TV with Sonny and I was writing the opening dialogue and the character so that was how I got a political television I was writing a lot of episodes and it was I mean it's what I said before about the camel it was so collaborative it just drove me nuts so I finally just said I think I'll write a novel and I sat down and I wrote three chapters and an outline of a book about two little girls who meet in Atlantic City and it follows their friendship over 35 years and I sent it to my TV agent he said I don't do novels I'll send it to somebody in New York and they called me and she said they like the writing but they say it's not commercial who cares about two little girls who start on the beach in Atlantic City can you have any ideas that are commercial and I said well my first husband was in the mailroom at MCA Universal and all the guys in his studio mailroom class if you will became very famous and they said oh that's the one right that one so I sat down and in ten months I wrote a very trashy novel called The Boys in the Mailroom and it was a dual main selection of the literary yield and it was a new times list and it was Aaron Spelling bought a mini-series and then everyone said remember that book about the two great idea and then you know then I had a son and then I was divorced and then you know so I decided the novel business is a good business for a mom I'll just stay home in my room and do that for a while so I did I wrote nine books and in the meantime I'm all in one of them was beaches and then it was you know it was made into a film that's how I knew that and that was what caused her to call me probably what she meant was write another novel and then someone else will make it into a movie but I this was my big chance to go back into the theater where I was born so I said okay I'm doing it and of course by the time I got finished she was too old to play the part. I didn't mean that bad. If you're watching this video, you're adorable. So yeah, I didn't agree. So that's my story and I'll say that anyway. But you actually know how I started with my sort of toly-cold I went to Rutgers College. I was an English major. I graduated. I wanted to have this idea of being a writer. So I got to eat. So I got a job like as an assistant in advertising. I was there for about 10 years and I wrote at night and no one cared and then but I literally wanted to write. I would write and I would tell friends about it and a friend of mine was you know sort of like you can't plan this stuff like a union organizer who had a friend who was a cartoonist who was doing a late-night cabaret show and looking for writers in this little theater on Ford Street or something.  I would have to write funny which I didn't really know until I heard people read it out loud.  So I went to West Bank Cafe is still there. I got a new black who used to be a comedian now on TV. I used to run that place. This was before this was like 98 before the Internet and I was very shy and I would literally go to him and I would like leave notes for him because I didn't want him to be there. It was like calling someone up and hoping they're not there. So I would leave these little notes. Hi Mr. Blackhead. Because he had seen my work and said oh that's funny. Like you know very just like a hand comment. And then I just bugged him for six months and he finally gave me this little evening and then I you know gave me a couple more and then I essentially what's great about New York or sort of any city is that there are a lot of aspiring writers directors and actors and I essentially just hooked up with them, started doing these little shows and I learned how to write. I mean I was like this sort of this masterclass of writing and then I wrote so I really started with no connection. I wish I had gone. I was like how people went to Yale are so lucky because you know you're Wendy Wasserstein and Chris Thuring are out having drinks. I could have been hanging out with them but it was not me and so but I just sort of persisted and as I kept saying I kept getting better. I kept getting these little productions and I worked really hard on them and then I wrote a play like I wrote one play that was terrible but then to draw another play and sent it out everywhere and the O'Neill Center which I think is still there picked it up and then suddenly I have just a little more interest and I use that interest to write something else and I got a reading here and then they produce it but I think they were interested in something else so it was just like starting start like starts you know you said there's a lot of theaters beside hard for stage you can start small in smaller places and keep pushing it and that's just what I did when I kept pushing it and I kept getting better I think those were the two things. I quit my job 12 years later after the story started so it seems like oh yes but that was literally I was like 32 30 and I really quit it for like thinking okay because I was starting getting a couple things here and I feel like I'm just gonna now have a family I was 30 early 30s I'm like I can act on the mortgage I can actually do this and I'll do freelance advertising in the year from now it doesn't work out in the back but I just I sort of wanted too much I just sort of somehow have a you know earlier living. One thing that's really was made it a little bit easier for me I don't know if it's been easy for anybody is that you know I was fairly well accepted in New York as a pianist and a music director you know I mean I could make a living from it and so you know you meet all the producers you meet all the directors and if there's something else you know if you can approach that from the side sometimes that's good that's totally what happened with golf is that I was at the John Houseman theater I used to be there 40 seconds great John Houseman theater and I was the pianist in Capitol Steps and Eric Krebs amazing wonderful producer owned the Fairbanks and the houseman with come backstage and he was always the kind of guy still is who if he had an omelet for breakfast and saw you in sterile be like omelet could that be a show so which is my way of saying all of the musical in the opera and he would come backstage you know and he you say they should be a musical about golf and I I love sports but I really didn't play golf but I was like but you liked it and again he's a producer so I hadn't had a show produced really and so I was like I will write and you know and so but that was the thing but Eric and I would have never known each other if I was a pianist in this stable of talent something like that so if you get to know especially in New York my gosh we all live in New York if there's a way you just get to know people so you're not a stranger you know I hate to go back to network network network because it sounds so cheesy and underhanded but it's what business isn't about networking every business is about networking but you know it's I mean I'm so glad you said that because you know it's it's one of the things that I because I'm asked this all the time about how that how how do you get started and what other times for me and you know I I feel because I you know I think about dating and there have been times in my life I'm sure yours that we've been single or not but you know if you go on a date and you're sitting in front of somebody who's just like what's something you don't know what it is they just want something from you or they say what they want from you it's always uncomfortable to me as opposed to let's have another state where you come to live out of yourself I'm gonna tell you a little bit about myself what can you bring to the table what do I bring to the table you know as writers we're often in a position where our hands are out what can you give me as opposed to what what can we get each other right you know how can we date each other how what what do I have that you like and what do you have that I like exactly what I used to tour in the rock business I might have been out with was the core of I'm gonna look at it I don't remember who I was out with but I had just started and the music director who's a good friend of mine you know I was like you know this is great how do you know but you're the music director you know how do you what's most important thing I'm like am I playing am I studying the charts enough and he said be a good hang be someone people want to be around you know I'm still working on that but I think it's really important because if there was ever business where it's about I like you I like this person I don't like that it's this one any more questions you guys yes ma'am I'm sure that you very much it's been like really fabulous this gentleman here I forget your name I'm yet I should be I should be clear I should be clear I was talking as where my producer had that and even as a writer when other people produced me you get you glean enough of what's going on to know how important reserve money is here's the thing and this is just my opinion and I'm not that experienced it sounds like I'm but I'm really not you know but I have produced off-road this so I could say this is that we live in the richest city in the world there is money out there you just have to ask for it and if you think that your script gets rejected a lot don't ask people for six thousand dollars for a point you know then you'll find out you know but we've already sealed ourselves that way by being writers we're or we just like I know I'm gonna go and get rejected 50 million times but you know there are enough people there where it's enough escape where people will give you money so the way to do it is to go what I did is I hired an amazing GM how Laura Heller first and I said this show is going to cost two hundred thousand dollars because I did my homework and they just laughed and laughed and laughed at me and so we doubled essentially double that budget and that's where I learned that you the money just goes but that's really a production I don't know you know I should brought that up because that's really a production thing not a writer thing we're gonna have to end up before I do first of all I want to thank Mike and Iris and Joe and also if you don't know this is Seth Cotterman by the way he worked at the office and also Terry Stratton back and it's because of Terry that these events happen so thank you Miss Stratton very very much. Thank you guys very much. And it was lovely to see you all. Thanks so much.