Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I am joined by Kevin John Simon or major Simon as we'll call him today. Welcome to the show. Nice to see you Bart Yeah, I'm really really honored to have you on the show You run the Mitch Mitchell fan club, which I saw your booth at the music city drum show and It's just great. It's wonderful what you're doing. Thank you very much. I'm glad you saw it. It's a pretty epic It is pretty epic. That's a good way to put it and he's a pretty epic drummer who I Think is very well known, but I think is also Not as much of a household name. So I hope today we can Add to that a little bit more. I think the people who know know, I mean people know Jimmy but let's give Mitch Mitchell some some of the spotlight that he deserves and I also want to give a Spotlight to my friend online Maximilian Ludwig or I call him max For suggesting this episode to me He recommended Mitch Mitchell about a year ago and I wrote it down and then kind of forgot about it and then I obviously saw your booth and Made it happen. So thank you to max. Why don't we jump right in here? And Can you take us back to the beginning of Mitch Mitchell's life? Sure Mitch was born in in England July 9th 1946 and I was born in a town called ailing in an area called Middlesex his parents was Phyllis and dad was Jack Mitchell and Interesting enough during World War one and World War two his dad was in a British Royal engineers And they called his dad was also called bitch Hmm, and then he showed tremendous talent from the time he was a little kid and That's a teenager. He was already starring in a DBC show called Jennings at school and And So by the time Mitch was 12 years old He was known throughout all the United Kingdom. Wow as an actor before he was even a drummer You know, that's that's interesting to me because I was googling, you know bringing up the which I know If you're like in school, they say don't use Wikipedia, but it's a good. It's a good Baseline thing and it's funny because it says drummer and child star and I really didn't know that and and so to back up a little bit though first because I said, you know, obviously we know him as Mitch Mitchell but his name is John Graham Mitchell and The name Mitch is obviously kind of playing off of his last name. Correct. Yes, it is and like I said his dad also Yes, okay Cool. Now, all right explain the TV show a little bit more So he was was he he wasn't drumming with that right? He was just being an actor. No, no Well, it has to go back to us in kindergarten garden is his parents sent him to the Corona Academy in London Which is a kindergarten through high school school for the gifted in every area music dance His daughter was it was went to that same school Arts he took classes in tap dancing fencing Oratory and it was a very very rigorous school. Wow for example In the song the wall, we don't need no education. All those little kids are from Corona Academy. Oh man Yeah, I should Mitchell Jim mr. Daughter was singing in that group So he had had an extensive arts background. His parents recognized us from a time. He was a child They never anticipated in becoming a musician Because by the time the kids a teenager he's well known. He's sort of like the Harry Potter of England by the 1960s That's unbelievable and So you said what was the name of the show that he was on? It was called Jennings at school and what what was it? Well, it was set up at a private boarding school for the very wealthy And these little kids would do various things and get them in trouble And you know, it's sort of like a situational comedy He was he played a very obstinate kid that kind of got on everybody's nerves You know And at the Academy to the Corona Corona Academy that was his character He was a prankster and a jokester but a lot of people didn't take it. He was very funny. He thought I was a riot, of course I'm sure Do you know? Okay, so as we're going along that timeline with this Which I just that's mind-blowing off the bat just to know about his his child star background Which I mean as we know historically a lot of times child stars can run into a lot of problems Because of that fame and they're you know, maybe that's I don't know if that's maybe more of an American thing Where they get mixed up with drugs and all that stuff, but was he pretty well? Balanced, you know what I mean in that time or was he I know he was a jokester and a prankster But was he getting into some trouble or was he pretty you know, not really his dad was very strict Okay, that's a very strict role engineers. What were one and what were two British Army? Yeah, you know, you didn't you didn't mess with Jack that'll do it now. When did he start drumming was this Along the same timeline by about 11 who became interested in drums and he began working on weekends at Jim Marshall who became famous for Marshall amplifiers Store they say he took a few lessons but from Jim Marshall But in reality he did he took lessons from a studio. We've now know this that we do this has recently come to life He took lessons from a studio jazz drummer in London named Ronnie Stevenson. He studied for at least a year So the technical facility had was was not obtained by Watching or taking a couple lessons from a music shop owner. It's clear that he had Really good good training rudimentally and yeah, and you got to think too that like his this Schooling that is like a performance arts school, which like you said is really rigorous has to like I Don't know.  So he's 11. He got his drum set. You said he's clearly Mitch is just Drawn to the drums like like many of us. Can you on the timeline? About what year was that that he would have gotten his drum set because because Mitch was born on July 9th 1946, right? So with that I bet about 57 No, he he actually got drums. I think about 1960 61 because he was actually in a Actual had a leading role in a role in a film So he was still involved in motion pictures and and of course television I would say about 1960 61 by 62. He's playing he's playing in a band. So yeah was that as a drummer? I think oh man, that's great. It's a step up But like do you think maybe was it seen by his parents as like I don't know Was it a move in the right direction to become a rock and roll drummer or his parents were were appalled that he would leave this Six very successful television career that there was really only starting when he said I want to go switch some music They they couldn't believe it. They really pleaded with him You know you're you've got a career and this other musical career is is touch-and-go It's a bit dodgy as a British would say might not happen. So as a parents were out of the blue He decided to do this. They did not take it very positively. Yeah, but of course, we know that results were very very favorable Yeah, but Hindsight is 20-20 as we know so I could see that risk of like, you know Mitch or John is his mom might call him like come on. What are you thinking? You need to do this You have such a good thing going on. I'm sure he was making some pretty good money as a kid More money than his parents. Wow. Oh my gosh. I got to try and find some of those I'm sure there's videos out there of him acting but you know, maybe not though I remember watching I think it was a Monty Python Like documentary and they talked about how the BBC would just destroy and record over old tapes. So Have you seen old footage? There's a few brief clips of Jennings at school I've seen at the Mitch Mitchell fan club because we have people that post from all over the place And then there is a British film called bottoms up Which you can find if you look hard enough 1960 as it was kind of a comedy. Mm-hmm. Yeah, but there isn't like you said There isn't a lot, you know, it survives all those years Yeah, this is videotape and they you like you said they reuse it Yeah, because they're not thinking oh these you know, like again these Monty Python guys Who cares no one's gonna want to watch this and in 50 years, which they were They were wrong, but All right, so he's he's started his musical career then was there a point where he was a working drummer and a working actor And he was doing all this stuff at the same time or did it kind of just hard switch to the other? That's a very good question. No, he made a clean break from acting and then At about the same time, of course, we know he discovers Elvin Jones and Tony Williams and he's really really getting into into bebop And that those guys become his heroes for actually for the rest of his life. So while while the typical Rock act in London is listening to Elmore James and Blues guys Mitch is listening to the hardcore B-boppers Wow, very interesting. So he was in you said he was born in Ealing, correct? Eileen. Yes. Okay. Was this I feel like a lot of these towns like that. I've been to England a few times, but there's so many it's like, you know There's a lot of different little areas. Was this a pretty industrial town or was it pretty? Happening area, you know, it's considered a district of London. We would call a suburb got West London. Okay So he's he's relatively close. That's just kind of puts it into perspective of you know, oh, no He's seven hours, you know No, so seven and a half miles from central London. Oh, wow. Okay. So he's pretty close there So he's he's kind of a bus ride or so from from exactly Okay, or the tube as they call it now that the county is the middle sex is like a county. Yep in the United States Got it's middle sex County than the little town. All right. So he's He's a drummer. He's going full force. He's going with it now go ahead and take it away from there What what where do things because we're in if you're in 60 or 61 It's not too far off from from him joining one of the biggest bands in history. I guess Well, he's picking he's meeting people his own age Marshall's son is a saxophone player.  He's he is in a really hugely famous but they're all gigging now the travelers is an interesting band because it's either the picture of Mitch playing as his really his first professional kid a premier and This shows him he looks he looks like he's about 14 and each guy's got a tee for travelers under under Embraced and blazoned under under coats. It's pretty pretty hokey. But yeah, that was a big deal Now this is about the same time that British the jabid sir the Beatles are playing in Hamburg and the Beatles are doing that stuff Sure, but he saw he's he's right in that Beatles UK invasion pre-invasion Crowd of people some bands are gonna make it big Some bands will not members of some of these bands go on to join the animals You know other bands, but they're all in this is sort of the entry level I guess that's exactly what it is. These are entry-level bands for young teenagers before they really make a big time Yeah, but man talk about just the right time with the right place with the right accent, you know I mean, it's it's just So I mean if this is like 60 61 the Beatles are in Hamburg I mean things are about to blow up and get exactly world wide attention, especially from the American audiences What was so you said he was playing premiere first? Yes, he was playing premiere But then but it's it's a what interesting fact that not a lot of people are not aware of it But when he was in his first really big band that actually had an album Was the riot squad he was playing a small a four-piece sort of a bebop black black Cortex Ludwig 14 inch bass drum small toms and There is there if you if also from the riot squad he goes He joins Georgie fame in the blue fames or the first band It actually has a hit record and there is video of Mitch playing this this small black Ludwig kit Wow, and that's pre-ringo, right? But by that time is 65. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah So he's trying to look like Ringo.  So if you if you Google it You'll find Mitch Mitchell in Georgie fame and the blue fames on a television show Probably ready steady go, which is a very popular show in London at that time. Gotcha. Now you you said good jazz Or I mean, it's we've talked about it a lot on this show, but it's it's it's it's always worth noting that you know Guys like Mitch Mitchell and Bonham and these guys their idols were jazz guys like you said Elvin and Tony were Mitch's you know legend. They're his heroes. It's he's got a pretty jazzy style I would say even more than some of the other rock guys of the era He clearly appreciated and studied and respected jazz Well, the really that's an excellent point and the thing is he has a technical facility Improvised he's not gonna just play he can play good time.  I would say so, you know what it is. He has a technical vocabulary To go off into this explosive jazz thing, which the typical rock drummer. It simply didn't have the chops to do Yeah, Mitch had that Yeah, that's a very good point Was he a big party or was he because you know, you're you're starting to get a lot of attention Like you said, you're probably on and you know, you're working with big bands.  He wasn't the guy in a corner Mumbling to himself and not really paying attention. He was the life of the party. That's it. That's this acting Extrovert thing. Yeah, in fact in many times you kind of shade shows up Jimmy, you know And not an interviews but in the social thing, you know, people would naturally gravitate towards him Jimmy was very shy Jimi Hendrix and no running but Mitch wasn't yeah Yeah, well, you know to be an actor. You're out there. You want people looking at you Which kind of puts it all into perspective there. So All right, well, let's get back on the timeline here and and move forward there. So he's a working drummer He's famous. I think we were in the mid 60s ish there with Georgie fame and the blue flames Coming right up on his big break. I guess you could say so Keep it going. The interesting thing is Jimmy had arrived in London in very early October and Mitch in his amazing book, which you can find it's called inside the experience Finds out that just about every studio guy. He knows is going to audition for some From some for some black bloke blues guy and he said it's just about everybody I know was going to audition and he said finally I got a call and he he went over to a small basement October 6th and Audition the first time they told him don't call us will call you and he said well I guess nothing's gonna come of this and they don't audition several more drummers and then he got a call back Interesting and in a callback as we know it's a famous Ainsley Dunbar and Mitch and it apparently the legend is it was decided for for Mitch over a towing cost So that's October 6 1966 and Jimmy is virtually unknown in England. Yeah, I was gonna say I mean so I'm not in any way Really, I guess I love Jimi Andrews like everyone else does but I don't really know too much about his You know his biography in those I know, you know Paratrooper and playing with James Brown, right? Yeah, but he was unknown in England Like you said, so this was just an open kind of call and I guess Mitch took a why not kind of thing and right Yeah, yeah, that's what it is. But Jimmy was lucky to make $50 a week in New York. Yeah, and he came to he came to London with a Qatar a Burberry coat and a visa. Yeah, absolutely nothing within a month. This guy's playing at the In Paris, he's playing it's unbelievable. It's what's most explosive success story in history I don't think Mitch he says in his book. He had no idea it would take off that way He liked Jimmy because Jimmy knew all the styles In other words, he said I played those styles with various British bands, but this guy really had this down He could be Curtis Mayfield he could be BB King and he was just he loved that music and and that's why they became a You know such a bonded friendship there because he's hearing the real deal. Yeah, exactly I mean, it's they're both students of the musicians who came before them and obviously studied a lot and played a lot So Okay, so he joins he wins the toying costs, which boy, that's lucky History could have really gone another way. I mean this changed Mitch's life, correct? It changes life But like I said, he he underestimated what was what was going to happen? this let's see He didn't you know, how do I say it nicely? He didn't take it seriously because this is just another act and and he because he'd not He underestimated because he'd been in these other acts that came and gone You play for six months. Suddenly you're fired. He got fired by the riot squad.  Well, that's not how it appeared to him at first. It was just well I'll just try this for his famous expression. I'll give it. I'll give it a play for a couple weeks Yeah, he he definitely had a he gave it a play. That's for sure. So Um, yeah, what's the timeline of all this? I mean, let's let's dig into the the Hendricks stuff Okay, by by october 5th Well, let's see the the by october 5th jimmy mitch and doll. I play together for the first time They have a gig on thursday the 13th in france So they're already, you know, then they play the olympia in paris the big huge theater for where they have grand opera So he goes from nothing in 12 days.  Does it just like one gig? It goes from a 500 cedar to a 2000 to a 10. Exactly. Wow And that's largely the influence of chas chandler who was the bass player for the animals chas has all the connections in the industry And uh, he they know the right people and they and they quickly chas realized this nothing Nobody's ever seen anything like this Not not in london And then they then they started gigging the local A clubs the jazz clubs in in downtown london. They'd go to scott's of st. james a big apple club in unik germany bag of nails and soho It you know tick tock club they start hitting these small clubs many of them are actually jazz clubs And the word starts getting out You've got to see this guy people who you know, eventually the Beatles are there sitting down there and uh You know across lay it on the ground on the ground watching this guy And it was so it happened so quickly. It was it wasn't a musical Explosion really it was we know he's revolutionary, but I don't know if any musician or act that went from absolute obscurity to Huge success with less than a month Yeah, that doesn't really Doesn't really happen. You know an interesting just kind of Thought starter is that mitch as a child star and just being in tv shows and movies you want to be You want to be the center of attention and you want to be the star and you want the camera on you But as a drummer you're in the back um You're rarely the star the singer I mean it obviously it happens in bands that we know about with singing drummers and stuff But he is now sitting behind one of the most popular Musicians in history Who was always going to be the star that that has to kind of Be a big switch from from growing up as a um as a as a child actor and a star and movies and stuff I wonder how that that worked with his psyche, you know Well, that's very interesting because because Positionally on stage when the experience played television shows mitch was on a platform but in a typical live gig mitch's ground level between Jimmy and nor writing on the same level and right in the middle they're they're online Which is interesting because it's not the drummer hiding back back on a platform back there It's almost like a little jazz club So they kept that form. It's like like what do you mean? Does they're playing for 20 000 people mitch is on the ground next to jimmy yep all the way through 1970 Yeah, interesting. It's very much a trio. So so they like um, they were friends, right? I mean did so jimmy he must have kind of Really clung to these guys as like a hey, I'm not from here, you know, I'm from seattle like I don't I don't know anyone here So they were really a tight knit band right the trio. They were tight knit band but personally Uh jimmy and mitch became very close. I mean, it's not an exaggeration or height to say they were It was it was a brother like a brotherhood. They were very very close because they both Love the jam. They did the time was irrelevant to them. I mean they'd be out have a banded a gig Gigas started at eight. It was over 10. They go to jazz club. So four o'clock in the morning They just naturally clicked that way Whereas the bass player no writing was more conventional time wise And that eventually led to his leaving the band in 69, but we can talk about that later So they you know, they were both, uh, they were both jammers. That's really what it is. They were jammers and that's Is it and they were a team they were a team no matter where they where they went mitch would go with to get get a cab go out to uh The black hawk hotel in in chicago and jam till two in the morning, but they were a team They really were a team. That's awesome. Not everyone's that lucky to be in a band where especially as a drummer, you know, where you're Pulled up with one of the biggest guitarists musicians in history. Um So that's awesome. What about his personal life at this time? Well, how old would he be? in that you know, okay what the first time uh, they they became Um, the first album came out in mitch was only 19 years old.  Jesus and when he when he played at um, I think he just turned 20 When they played a monoray pop In monoray california 67. So he was he was very very young Now jimmy was four years older. I believe four years older than mitch. These guys are so young it's unbelievable to think of the success that gets thrown on these young people and uh, that's a lot to To take on maybe in that case his experience of some success as a kid Helped him navigate through this um without getting too overwhelmed and you know, like Like he's kind of been there a little bit in a way that that's a very good point. He he keeps his poise in spite of all this, uh What's the word unconventional totally unconventional lifestyle now? I'm looking at the schedule here You know before monoray is strictly clubs. It's they played about 75 clubs And then two shows two shows university of york grace club mostly bars like a bar band And similar to the Beatles, you know the Beatles, uh, uh, i've been george harrison said well, you know They they say we became famous or said well, we we had played in clubs and bars for three years before anybody even knew Who we were yeah, so the hen the heners experience is similar Musically, but of course you you have management. It's all that's the interesting thing from day one There's a huge management team. I mean they have very successful management for the very beginning behind them Of course that goes south later on but um It's very similar to the police the band that was they were playing clubs all over england even though Uh, uh, they hadn't even recorded a record for over a year Because they had good management miles copeland sewer copeland's brother ran pretty much pretty much ran that band But they're getting the gigging experience gigging experience You're and then and then eventually you go on your on your tour of cities But you make it or break it in those small clubs and that's what that's what those guys did for the first, um seven months Yeah, wow unbelievable. I'm sure he's just I'm sure he's loving it as a young guy was was he Dating celebrities and stuff like that kind of in his personal life or was you know things like that tabloids I don't I don't think so. I don't I don't think he really didn't have time for that I mean, uh, you know the schedule was You know, it's a schedule of the teenager could survive But you know, I'll sometimes up all night, you know Getting out of playing with four hours sleep It was it was very grueling Of course it gets worse as they get into the touring years But the clubbing clubbing scene is you know these start playing at 10 or 11 sometimes midnight Yeah, you you condition yourself to do it. You know what? I mean you you get into that That mode of doing it All right. Well, then let's talk about his gear I think it's cool to kind of pop in with some gear as we go symbols hardware Let's break down his his, you know early Hendricks gear Okay, as I mentioned he He had his first I guess you call professional kit Was a small premier kit But he always always used a lubbing 400 snare drum regardless of what he was playing sure There are pictures with him Playing mostly premier in that by 1960 66 the first Hendricks kit was a premier kit So I guess he was experimenting The interesting thing about this is most people don't know this. There was a Rogers drum factory In a suburb of of west London So people say wait, you know, why why why why bonham and Mitch and In wringo using rogers pieces or in the case of Dave Dave Clark from day five playing rogers sets There was an actual rogers factory if they were making rogers stuff So you had axes in the music store to stands snares parts so The first set I mentioned the very first set before he Was in Hendricks was a small Ludwig which he which he kept as it's it was recently sold by his girlfriend in London But the first Hendricks set was the the famous a tiger stripe Five six five piece like a buddy rich configuration one time up to two floor or two times down. Yeah Yeah, and then it was rogers all rogers moaning hardware Premier stands. Yep. The rogers hardware was pretty common at the time with a lot of the guys because I you know It seems like rogers kind of had it figured out really the the hardware of how to make it work and not You know Make it more adjustable and all that stuff. So that's that's pretty common Well, the the roger here's another thing that people don't realize the rogers swivelmatic stand. They're called Was it was a very primitive early tripod all the other stands made by Ludwig the Ludwig 1400 And in a in a premier where flat base stands very low to the ground slight puff of wind boom there goes your stand But the the rogers had a small stand of swan famous swan neck legs But it was a tripod and that's really why Mitch used it because it was a little bit higher off the ground Tripod legs are very small But it was it was more stable than any of the other brands because everybody else had Right underground on the floor. Yeah Yeah, very interesting and the whole english rogers thing. I know um, I've done a rogers episode and we kind of talked about it, but that's a whole um That's just an interesting kind of Side note about the english rogers and there's always these little side roads that you can go down with these But it makes sense with with distribution and and I always kind of Think you got to remember too with Ludwig. Obviously, this is post Ringo where it had exploded, but that's an import over there I mean, it makes perfect sense. He's playing premier because that's an english brand, but um, You know, you'd think he'd be like Heyman or something like that that's over there But yeah, so him to have a Ludwig kit was not as easy as It is nowadays to just order it and there's kits everywhere. Um, so it's it's an import Well, and these these young guys gravitated to Ludwig because of the um, the glamour of it amer and american drum set, of course once wringle Starts playing Ludwig every every beat band every Invasion bands pretty much switches to Ludwig, but it's the glamour of it very hard to get an extremely expensive typical Young person could never afford a Ludwig kit. Yeah, and they were usually bought for the drummer by management the rail mount A Ludwig tom holder is a very very iffy thing if you travel on the road I was on the road in the 60s with one they eventually they strip out you can tie them as much as you want and they still move so That's why so many of these british acts put the tom on a snare on a snare stand because it the Ludwig Tom mount was was It was simply not reliable So they would drill a shell for a rogers swivel matic and that's not going anywhere It's being it's being set with with three spindles for the drum key Would I call set it and forget it? Yeah, so sure Yeah, I ah man, there's nothing worse than when you're playing and your tom starts to just like drop Or a cymbal stand starts to fall.  This situation, but that's that's what unites us is having to deal with these gear problems, right? Well, when I when I I had I taught history for 32 years and we retired. I got myself a Present for for surviving that long I basically got an exact copy of the other kid I played It's a teenager and my very first gig with the 85 piece concert band I hit the tom boom one time and it went it went Completely flat.  Wow during the break. I just want to mention during the break I took the a little a little a splash cymbal l arm and I Moved it up and put the rim of the 9 by 13 on the lip of that Of that thumbscrew and that's the only way it stayed there It's universal to have to deal with these issues and drummers are very resourceful in Uh coming up with solutions practical solutions because you know, we've all been there So equipment breakdowns. What are we gonna do? That's exactly right? I mean, that's it's a good life lesson This episode is brought to you by dream symbols dream symbols is launching the tasting tour 2021 There's going to be tons of cool symbols members of the dream team on site And the recycling program will be in effect all day at these various awesome music stores around the country October 16th rhythm traders at portland, organ and november 6th They'll be at rup strums in denver colorado. So go out and check it out if dream will be in your town All right, so let's get on the timeline here. So hendrix is huge. He has blown up I mean Mitch is probably starting to realize this is more than just a Gig more than just being a jobber, you know, working with different acts He's cemented in, you know, one of the biggest bands in in history at that point What what happens from there? well Mitch makes his first big mistake career wise because he doesn't expect the band to really do anything He signs an agreement that he's going to be paid as a side man And that is a a bad decision business decision that will haunt him for the next four years But we'll get into that because basically it's like playing it's your local holiday end. I'm a side man with a band I'm not the leader Where do I sign? Yeah, and then uh, uh Didn't realize That what a mistake he'd made and because he thought it was a side act Hmm Man, what was all right, so What would be the alternative obviously would be signing and and just explain that a little more like What is he signing for who for management for jimmy's management? How did that all work? Okay, he's signing an agreement with um Chas Chandler who is eventually bought out by the infamous michael jeffrey that he is going to get a small amount for each gig as a side man, but he Also, eventually, I know it's so hard to believe he gets power of attorney To michael jeffrey's lawyers And then he gets no commission for for concert sales. No no percentage on On promotional material and and no percentage on records, which is the worst business deal You can possibly think of so he's playing at clubs and they're making 30 grand a night And he's being paid like a like a local musician at your holiday and down the street Man, I mean so the alternative would have been saying Uh, you know, no, I'm a big part of this band and then he would have gotten probably not 33 33 33 point whatever it would have been A higher percentage so it would have been a more of a Uh a cut now on that though. We should ask the question Was he contributing to the writing to the development of the songs? You know, I mean what was his level of involvement with that stuff The drum parts of course officially no, but but sure by the by the release of cry of love Which is hendrix's last studio album. It says On the back of the album produced by mitch mitch eddie kramer and mitch mitchell He never got official producing credits until jimmy's final album got sure Okay, so he didn't have he doesn't he has no official Role as as a ranger a producer in any capacity on the first three albums. Yeah, which i'm sure he did but man, you don't One signature can really uh In a lot of drummers cases you think of like ginger baker and stuff obviously can really Uh negatively affect I guess the rest of your life that can kind of haunt you of what you what could have been Of course jimmy made this jimmy made this mistake. We we know jimmy would sign anything, you know and um So By 1967 they're doing they're doing a gig. They're making 18 20 000 dollars jimmy gets a thousand bucks He gives he keeps 400 600 mitch. He gives 150 and no 150 dollars, but management keeps 12 000 in cash Which is being sent out of the country. You know, I mean it's it's unbelievable So jimmy made the same problems I mean he was jimmy was so desperate for success. It's where do I sign? Where do I sign?  This isn't worth it You're not doing what we say Who knows what would have happened? Maybe it would have hindered things if he did care more and and didn't just sign And and get that opportunity in that one place, which Uh-huh, you know how man stuff well several times several times management didn't like mitch's attitude And uh, we're complaining jimmy and jimmy said no He's he's with me.  Yeah You know, did did jimmy ever this is such a specific Thing that I'm sure probably isn't documented But I wonder if jimmy did Did he ever comment or watch or see any of mitch's early child acting? It's just kind of funny to think of jimmy hendrick sitting there watching mitch mitch will You know act in this little bad boy role on a in a part in a private school You know I wonder what he thought that's a very good question It's it's possible because those are those are probably being shown on bbc reruns in the early 60s but um I'll tell you something for of uh, and you and your listeners Um, jimmy was in awe of mitch mitch on so many levels as a drummer a performer a celebrity Um, he was he was from the time he saw him. He was uh, he was really really impressed On just about every capacity. Like I also mentioned mitch was outgoing They had and they had this non-stop Comic comedy act between the two, you know, there's a famous scene where they're going to do a show in paris Uh, and um, they go on on the television set jimmy walks by mitch and he goes Smashes a symbol with the end of his guitar so Mitch mitch kind of reaches towards him jimmy it looks at him and So they had this they had this thing going on. Also, uh, mitch was a horrific practical joker And would drive them crazy, but we can talk about a little bit later I'll give you I'll give you one example one concert Before this after the sound check he tuned all the guitars up a half-stop Including the bass. Oh man Wow, that'd be weird Jimmy wow Geez, all right. So I have a question too though. Um, personally about him Were his parents now like Approving of this decision then I mean this because this timeline isn't that far. It wasn't like, okay 20 years later He finally made it. I mean, this is all pretty close to his, you know, we're all we're talking about all within like, you know Under a decade did his parents Realize that this was working out Yes, by by by mitch's 20. He has a gold record Unbelievable crazy, which the family still has yeah, and uh, they they of course they He succeeded beyond anyone's wildest dreams including Mets of course, but the family was very proud. They of course they they realized Yep Mitch made the john made the right decision here beyond anyone's dreams Yeah, yeah, very cool. Okay. That's good to know. So Um, all right, let's carry on on the timeline here because honestly, I mean It's so sad about how young jimmy hendrix was when he died and how you know Bright his star burned and then kind of uh, just ended so there's Not that long of a period when he was in one of the biggest bands in history, but um, so yeah, keep going there Okay, so the the the big the next big opportunity is they get signed To to track records which was created by chas chandler And one of the managers of the rolling stones and they released uh, hendrix's first single is hey joe And that become very successful and from a series that the problem with this is they're since they're constantly playing Constantly gigging like any band getting them into recording studio was very difficult and they would only be there a few hours So it took quite a long time Uh to release the first album they'd been there for months and months and months First album didn't come out until 67 Um and recording it snippets here and there snippets here and there so the album comes out It's courses that it's enormous hit but it's pretty much known in europe in england and and A guy named phillips who's a member of the mamas and poppers is organizing the monoray pop festival And he invites paul mccartney to be there with the Beatles and paul says no I can't there's no way we can do it. We're too too busy right now But I know of a guitar player an act and paul said if you're if you're Festival is purported to be the best of the new musical talent. You have to have A guy named jimmy had the jimmy hendrix experience, of course Uh, this guy phillips goes who the jimmy hendrix experience. You don't nobody says no, who are they? He said well, you'll find out. Yeah, so they they booked Hendricks experience of course the who were there and and and and In monoray california and saturday june 1767 they go on there the final act And they they burned that house down. Of course jimmy's of course infamy infamy said lets Lights his guitar on fire. Yeah, but that that show Is burned into the memory of everybody who knows anything about the music industry because they They were in rare form.  It's a story of this And they discussed this so That episode I can't describe it in words. It was it was a historic For rock and roll as benny gubben at carnigal hall in 1930. Yeah, great way to play it. It was a It changed everything of course They the upside is be they became very very well known in the united states But unfortunately went on a tour with the monkeys for a month That's funny. That's a weird You know line up It didn't last very long it drove jimmy crazy Jimmy was very competitive musically and He always was I it's probably his possibly his army training. He didn't like being showed up So they were pretty much a sideline with a monkey's tour. They're the warm-up back Of course it didn't fit and they began sabotaging things right right away. It's kind of hilarious when you get into it the practical joking i'm sure was uh Yeah, that's it's that's almost like a um I don't know where like you're You have all these things planned in the future such as like a tour with the monkeys But then something happens Before that stuff starts that makes you be so much more I don't want to say they're more popular than the monkeys.  I know that's happened with like led zeppelin and things like that where You kind of got a flip flop the order And it doesn't it doesn't really work like that if we if we continue our timeline Phil Graham the promoter in california was so impressed with with hendrix the hendrix guys at two days later he booked him for for Tuesday once a thursday friday saturday Uh at the film war. So they they were he said well look at these so look at these guys are so amazing So and that that connection between phil graham with film war west on san francisco and film war east in new york remains throughout the The uh experience. Hmm. Yeah, that's awesome. Man They must be on cloud nine. I mean after that and this is like obviously it sounds so dumb saying it But it's so there's no youtube. There's no Not everyone is holding a cell phone Filming it. Um, that's just Such an iconic concert.  I don't know the exact day. They do a show in california july 2nd It's still part of the monkeys tour They go from there to greensboro, north carolina So somewhere between july 2nd and july 12 mitch gets his first Ludwig kit and it's shipped from from the Ludwig factory in chicago to manage music in new york The first picture of mitch playing a Ludwig kit is at forest hill stadium in new york in new york city interesting so you can kind of like Pinpoint within a couple days of how of when that When that happened, um, wow that had to save on shipping getting that thing across the ocean It's pretty convenient Yeah, so he's in new york and he gets that kit comes from Ludwig now silver sparkle because he's an it's a It's a tribute to joe morellos. Yeah famous silver sparkle kit. There is one there is some customization. There are four Legs that you know that you go into the time that they're from those club date kits of the small little Disappearing Legs and they that's the set he uses for the next year Gotcha one up two down Um, looks like he has pretty big floor toms if you look at a picture of it They're they're 2016 2016's just like buddy rich. Oh, wow. Yeah, okay Yeah, that's pretty big. Okay. And then symbols. Is he a zildjian guy? I mean like most people at the time What else? Exclusively zildjian that that that kit is got He always mitch always uses a an 18 inch crash ride throughout the experience a 20 inch ride riveted And a standard 14 inch hi-hats riveted because of so he can do brushwork and here Little sizzle on this on the drum set. That's pretty much the kid now Using a crash ride all the way through from the 1960s to 19 for 10 years An 18 inch crash ride sometimes a 20, but I always use a crash ride It doesn't really make sense until you see that him play how he uses it. Yeah, I like crash rides I think it's an interesting symbol. Um, because it's Obviously, it's a little bit of both. Let's say, you know, it's it's bigger than your normal crash And it's smaller than your normal ride But I used to have one on a kit when I was, you know, a little younger and It's a nice symbol to have especially if you're really going to be laying into it. Um, yeah Yes, exactly. That's probably why he had it. Yeah, that's awesome. So good. He's a good endorser I'm sure for these brands as well Ludwig and And zildjian which was kind of the the it brands for a long time there, especially in that period And mentioning mentioning symbols all of the symbols are used. I mean, they're not new symbols He doesn't have an endorsement from zildjian yet. So every every drum set 60 65 66 67 And even into 68 are not new symbols. He doesn't get a completely brand new factory set of new symbols until 69 Was he a gear nut? Was he a gear guy? An unbelievable gear head down to the There are things I found out in the past year that From the Henry's museum In Seattle when I talked to when I went out the west of the Mitch Mitchell fan club He was constantly making innovative things that Like plastic inserts on the insides of his toms all the way around the insides that looks sort of like Oh Looks like the It looks like Like it's fiberglass, but it's it's bent strips of plastic on the insides of all those drums He started doing that to make his drums Louder because he was this this thing of jimmy with 10 marshals amps and No already in the base player with 14 amps Mitchers always poorly might so he was trying he was constantly trying to Get more sound and of course he starts off with 7a drumsticks By 19 by 1970s playing two bees. Yeah, seven a's aren't going to cut it with Jimi Hendrix Wow, okay. That's interesting. That's such a unique. I mean that the the I love the amplification and the microphone process in those days of I'm sure they hated it, but I like the history of it about How tough it was where yeah, you're competing with it and do you know if like Mitch's Experience and background with Jim Marshall was that I would assume that was connected to jimmy playing marshall or was it just kind of a coincidence No, it was just the fact that Marshall by that time made the loudest most powerful amps in the world But uh, he's mentioning geared. Mitch was very very picky about microphone placement He was always getting trouble with union guys in these big halls Who would not let them touch any of the microphones and then when they walked away He'd move the mic towards towards the center of the bass drum He would they go you can't can't do that. No, that's it. You know, that goes against our contract So he was uh, yeah, he was he was very very He knew what I guess from his studio days. He knew what where mic placement should be but had no control of it Yeah, that's That's a whole thing with with union and non union and touching stuff and and i'm sure he's Being a gearhead and a perfectionist kind of with his stuff then then you know, he wants to do what he wants to do so So as we go from 67 through 68 69 to the three albums and the three big tours Mitch is migrating more to rogers more more to rogers. Uh, the 67 kit is Ludwig drums Uh roger stands a Ludwig Realm out, but by the big big change is going to be 1968. That's when everything changes That's really the height of the experience when they Musically, I think career-wise professionally and mitches that kit that goes out in 1968 Is um, really them. I think it's it's the epitome of what mitch was doing with the head of his experience now I can I can give you your listeners the exact date on friday march 29th 1968 mitch goes to the to the Ludwig factory and here's the actual quote That day i'd been to the Ludwig drum factory They gave me the guided tour and I picked up a great big brand new bass drum And then of course he's talking about a drum set now i'm quoting from Hendricks 1968 day by day by Ben volkov and he's from amsterdam. He's a top european Hendricks expert and this book just came out in 2019 I would if you're a Hendricks person or it goes into excruciating detail Hendricks 1968 day by day so that kit was picked up in It's a natural maple kit with a 24 inch bass drum 14 by 24 9 by 13 tom A 16 by 16 and a 16 18 floor tom and it's picked up at the liby factory, but it's not used until uh in a performance until Let's see May 10th at the film feel more east in new york city That's the first time this first picture of mitch with this brand new natural maple Ludwig kit And that really for me personally that's that's the high point that that's that you know, it's amazing drums It has all it's all right. The only thing is there is Ludwig as a drums Everything else is rogers roger stands and he uses 1940s Ludwig tilters. I don't no one knows to this day why We move the uh swivel medicans put these weird kind of spindly, you know, not very strong Childers on the drums, of course my my replicas have this exactly down to the tee. Hmm gosh Wow, that's roger roger. Yeah roger spurs roger swivel medic and all those stands, of course rogers I wonder how You know, I mean, it's probably pretty easy to find out but I wonder how Ludwig would feel about that Like okay people keep taking maybe that's they they finally caught the you know Got the message that hey people keep changing out our uh our our hardware here and doing this Which which a lot of companies you like I said a lot of companies used rogers But to get this brand new drum set and have to switch out All of this, you know, the little accessory hardware pieces and the mounts and stuff um Well, that's a very good question. They lovely doesn't get their act together until 1970s 76 when rogers comes out With their um, they're they're they're they're for their kit that has memory. It's called memory lock. It's a memory kit Of course, um, alomor at Ludwig copies it and we get the first and lovely modular kit in 1979 That kit the modular kit with some people complain looks like plumbing Is the first really tough robust Tom mounting system a little bit ever had it. So, you know, it's 60 is 59 69 79 uh 20 years before lovely really makes a decent tom holder You know, it's hard to hard to understand. Yeah But also they they had the same lovely has the same problems with with their their their drum shells And they're and they're bearing edges And and the reason for this is you've probably talked to I know you've talked to guys about the calf heads calves can heads Ludwig doesn't fix that problem until 80 81 the the bearing edges are so poorly made now the reason they're they lovely can get away with this when you have a calf skin head It it goes on damp. Yeah, and it conforms to the bearing edge. That sounds pretty good But when you put plastic over that same thing, it doesn't conform to anything. So the drums the drums are notoriously Pretty bad sounding in fact a bad sounding lovely. I call a thudwig That's good. It's it's just not come to its full potential yet, right? Let's give it a a change an opportunity to have its edges done and and uh and meet its true potential Now the first company to figure it out. Hey, we got to do something new was of course, um keller keller made decent shells They were very highly Finished to they made the adjustment to plastic to mylar before anybody else did of course, love me try to copy them Other trumpets try to copy them So they're always behind the eight ball the top innovators realize hey these everything's changed with this plastic We got to change it wasn't till 20 years that will be really modernized. It's hard to believe but that's that's that's true So and then I would probably throw out as as I mean we all like and love Ludwig Obviously, they're iconic maybe, you know, they ought to to answer You know to guess They're so slammed and they make so many drums that it's obviously Their main priority is just keeping their head above water at that especially in the 60s and um, well Well, I uh, it's interesting. I know the love. I know the lovey family I worked at a drum shop in chicago in the 80s. I used to go to lovey factory every friday And uh, the the thing was lovely in the 60s. It was they couldn't meet the demand. They were making 100 kits a day And I they there are there's indications. I haven't Verified there's a there were tight. There was a few days actually made 200 drum sets a day So quality was always an issue. Um, you know, that's the reason why they nested the the wrap into the one of the plies Make it five minutes faster So they were always battling against the clock and even from from 64 to 68 They still couldn't meet demands and they had you know, the story they had three shifts going Sure, so they were it wasn't so much cutting corners. It's just how do we get this stuff out? Yeah, suddenly boom it all fell out the bottom fell out in 68. So yeah, and there's um People stealing stuff from the factory and there's just the Ludwig. That's a whole other There's episodes many episodes about that but um, well in Ludwig's offense, they had over by 1975 They had over 120 patents all the major innovations in drum manufacture came from Ludwig from Actually from the 50s and 60s the first metal all metal scenario with a center reinforcing bead the first Throw off that actually worked the first uh, hi-hat that was stable Uh, the innovations are remarkable and then the first pedal tune timpani with a balanced action They had over 120 patents. So they they they did everything not everything but they did most things correctly But their biggest enemy it was really Time you're trying to get all this stuff out as fast as possible You're going to cut corners You're going to follow the principles of manufacturing set forth and by this famous guy taylor and in 1905 you're going to place everything you want to get it off the door Out the door because they know this is not going to last forever No, but it it didn't but I it just I think of you know the the boom in the 60s But then I also think of being a kid and you know, I think it was in the Mid 90s I was sitting there on a Like pre google like search.com some pre google thing looking up the Ludwig logo Just because I like to look at it the Ludwig logo is based on senior That's what the family called WFL one Seniors hand signature is based on that just as the Ford signature on Ford cars is based on Henry Ford signature Yeah, great marketing. I know that's a whole story there with having the logo on there But all right back to Mitch here. So um carry on on the timeline getting back with Mitch I think we left off in the in the we're getting closer to the late 60s here. Um, yes So yeah, keep going So in 68 they embark on this legendary infamous tour That Mitch says uh, was the tour from hell It was not organized Logically as far as going from Cleveland to Chicago the midwest and then going hitting the the eastern seaboard new york Philadelphia area it was hit and miss you in toronto one night next night You're in chicago then you fly to denver then the next night you're in you're in winnipeg It was miss calls at the tour from hell. He also says whoever Booked that tour had no concept of geography. Yeah, that was a that was a grueling a very difficult tour for them It was physically beyond comprehension. In fact, they didn't have a break until September of 68. They had one month off And uh, that that was an that was an amazing tour.  I've heard that they took 50,000 miles by car by car and bus So it was an epic tour very famous.  We have there's maps of this and So it was it was of course and at the same time they're trying to record electric lady land Which is a twin album very very difficult and They somehow managed to pull that off all that time, of course he's there they're Famous Miami pop in in bay of 68 And that whole time they're recording constantly jimmy's on the plane They they play at the golf stream park On a Saturday the sunday concert is canceled And it's produced by michael lane the same guy that produced woodstock a year later On the plane back the concerts cancer jimmy writes Rainy day dream away, you know, that's it because account the concert got cancer. So that that was a that was like Musical that was like d-day. I mean it was it was really tough really really hard Mitch complained about it to the rest of his life It complained about all the tours, but that's especially that 1968 tour. It was it on every level. It was a huge success They were making 30 grand a night Jesus, but that that was that was a that was a tough one. Well, unbelievable, but you think I mean touring then and you you You know, I was watching I guess it was eight days a week the the Beatles thing on hulu where it was a recent documentary where it talks about them stopping this madness of touring because it's so Unpleasant then it's not like now where I feel like things were just In in the simplest form a lot less comfortable and it was more Just it was tough. So it's even for young why it's bad There are conspiracy theorists that say that that whole thing was deliberate by michael jeffrey his management to make it as brutal as possible to keep them barely, uh, you know, I mean Bear you know barely Functionally on purpose is a standard standard procedure with You know in british military. Well, actually Michael jeffreys has a background in british military intelligence. He's mi5 guy. So I I know it sounds kind of far out You would you want to keep these guys to the point of exhaustion on purpose? I think that actually was the case Man, there's no other logical reason to do it yeah, or just Milk them for everything they've got but I guess that goes with the same thing of of just run them till they're ragged It seems like they were seen as as a commodity as a product a little bit from management. Oh, exactly exactly it was uh It was that that tour was Financially commercially professionally successful beyond anyone's dreams, but it's emotionally physically Uh, like like going to bootcamp And I've been there with the Marine Corps Yeah, I'm my god. I'm sure Wow, okay, so They must have just been Exhausted and you said they got a month off What did what did mitch like to do and is do you know what he liked to do in his his brief off time? They jammed they they they had a they got a rented house Which is rented to various musical acts in benedict cannon canyon area of los angeles And they had from september to october. They had one month and we really didn't do anything Except sit around the pool Uh drink do it, you know, yeah, sure Things like that and of course, there's a famous picture Photo photo series shot comes out in january of 1969 and look magazine special issue on black life black power and it shows those guys sitting around and chilling out It was a wonderful experience for them. Yeah, they deserve it to take a break very quickly very quickly. They're back on that grueling thing here. So Now if we if we continue to december 1st Okay, mitch had ordered his next ludwig kit, which is a double base Black panther kit. We have some some amazing Customations that i didn't even realize until recently that kid is ordered In before the end of the 68 tour and mitch gives that 68 natural maple kit To robert wyatt the drummer for the backup band soft machine And which he has to this day and then They order that by december they're they're the tour is over between december 1st 1968 and january 7th At some point a new drum set comes from ludwig. It's a double base black panther kit two twin 24 inch bases Um, it's instead of a nine by 13. It's a custom nine by 14 And instead of a 16 by 16 floor, it's a I now know it's a 16 by 14 and a 16 by 18 all rogers rogers Spurs rogers everything rogers mounts and that kit is Ordered in december and the first time we see it at an actual gig Is wednesday january 8th in gutterberg sweden Mitch has that brand new double base kit now. He's under a lot of pressure apparently to be like ginger baker So he has a double base that double base kit. Yeah, exactly because that's not really his style in the past and if I mean if anyone is If you've I mean of course you have but a lot a lot of people out there Maybe who are younger haven't had the opportunity to actually play with two bass drums as opposed to a double base pedal To be honest, it's not the most comfortable thing in the world And and it kind of takes a little getting used to with how far you need to be You know with the high exactly and yeah, exactly and your legs are spread pretty far apart Now that drum set has an eight bytes it has an uh eight by 13 and a nine by 14 mount of time. It's a really unusual set. Yeah, that's a set that he's going to use all of 1969 It's cool looking. I mean and I'm sure you know the roadies his his his crew didn't love it moving More drums and setting them up, but you know, it's really cool looking. Are you this is aware of why Ludwig went to Black Panther, uh, I don't know. Let's not assume anything. So why don't you uh, tell us about it Well, because there there was they they had made two different color wraps that that were That were that totally bombed they'd manufactured about 200 kits of like a pink Black or instead of a black oyster or ship black was a pink oyster It looked atrocious. So they basically took took a Uh a covering material contact paper And shipped out all these drum sets with black panther. The only reason they did black panther was to hide the wrap underneath Oh, wow. That's interesting. That's so uh Yeah, it's just like for one of the biggest drum companies in the world. It's like Uh, I feel like that doesn't happen nowadays. It would be like, all right, let's just let toss them or Shave them down and we'll do something else, but it's like now just cover it in contact paper You know Mr. Ludwig senior was notoriously Um Good with money. He walked around a factory with with a coffee cup looking for screws and stuff in nails so Um, no, that's a true story. So that kid that kid the interesting thing now They they kind of hit it because on the back of the of the 1970 71 catalog. It says wraps Excuse me. It says it says, um finishes, you know pearls And it says a black oyster as a pearl But in the inside where they show the kit Predict and depicted and shows it says black panther contact paper, you know So they knew what they were doing but the average drummer had no idea Yeah, interesting and I mean the Now that you can look back on it and it's retro. I think the the pink, you know Oyster the pink pearl is actually pretty cool looking, but I guess when it came out it might be a little, uh You know I don't know if it was brand new. It's it is a little dated looking but now that's in and that's cool Oh, it's cool. Yeah, I'm sure they're really rare. Obviously Um All right, so he's rocking his big double bass kit. Did Mitch I'm sure Who was his drum tech in in those days? Did he have a good relationship with That's a very good question. I I Found out when the Mitch Mitchell fan clubs started I contacted some there was a Mitch Mitchell Of page in Germany And the guy's name was he was an african-british guy And his name was it had a biblical name. It was isaia or elijah And he was a guy that that did a lot of that work, of course, Mitch did did it too But Mitch was very very very specific like a gearhead um He did things that were unconventional if he couldn't get it to work for example that the The swobamatic bass amount goes straight down perpendicular to the shell Well, Mitch couldn't find one at that time. So they put it at a weird angle But it actually worked when I made my reproduction. I'm going You know, well, I worked for Mitch and sure enough it works, but the guy's name was elijah or Or he was he was he worked with him in london. Now when he get I I talked to billy cox someone talked to billy cox and billy cox Couldn't remember the guy's exact name, but he said he'd passed by 1970s. He passed away So jimmy did to have a drum tech Got back in the 60s london bass london based sure you kind of have to I mean if you're at that level It's like if you're being on this grueling schedule, it's like give the guy a little bit of a break Let him have someone Help him, right? Well, Mitch would set up his sets when they were brand new He people say to this day people say he would put had white gloves Oh, cool. He replaced it. He didn't want any fingerprints in it. So he was uh, you know Yeah, clearly clearly very very particular. Um, now the 69 kit by by 1969 it's got a A slingerland buddy rich hi-hat which is a toughest hi-hat made by the end of by the end of 1969 That's set one to woodstock in august It's a it's a lovely drums lovely drums rogers symbol stands a slingerland hi-hat and a rogers power tone snare drum That's what that's what he was using by the end of 1969 at woodstock. He's using a rogers power tone I always use The buck rogers stands which are made by wallberg and a jay. That's cool. And uh canister thrones in 67 silver canister thrones matching in 68 and then a lovely timpani stool in 1969 And bigger symbols. Oh cool. Yeah. Yeah, the canister thrones are an interesting thing because I think they're cool because they match your set and all that but ergonomically, I guess not the most uh, You know the best thing for your body as you I guess you're kind of You're at that height. I always think it's interesting.  You're stuck with the height Which is about between 22 and 24. Well, we can't forget the the infamous Ching ring with the hi-hats mitz used at 67 68 69 bottom used them to sure Yeah, and you want to describe that Ching ring? Yeah, I mean so you'd probably do it better than me but I mean it's it's basically I always just kind of looked at it as like a I mean it's early effects. It's kind of tambourine-ish in a way Exactly and and Mitch did something interesting. He we in our research for the Mitch Mitchell fan club replicas um, Mitch just took a hi hat clutch and Held the the hi hat clutch around the it's a circular ring with a center piece with a series of holes um, it looks like it looks like a um No parking sign a circle with it with a hash back through it through the middle Yeah, and then it has a series of rings but Mitch held it with a hi hat clutch There's a hi hat clutch holding a symbol and an upside down hi hat clutch holding the Ching ring on on the center rod Interesting is that what Bonham would do as well with the two clutches because I I got one And I was like putting years ago. I think I just put it in a drawer or something I was putting it on the same You know between the felt and the hi hat But yeah, we I did that too originally because the pictures of Mitch with that were so Uh hard to tell eventually I found a close-up thing. I went aha. He's got a he's being held with a With a clutch that's a it's an ingenious thing upside down clutch. Yeah, that's very that's what he used I don't know George way ish or something just some it's you know, it's pretty inventive. Um, which he obviously is Symbol sizes remain constant until 1969 then he goes to bigger symbols. He has a 20 inch of um Crash ride he has 19 inch median fast and 20 inch crashes the symbols are way bigger 69 much bigger He's he's getting away from the speedbop thing. He's going loud. Yeah, he's going full rock I mean this is but I guess that's that's what other guys are doing as well at that time bigger sizes So he I think it's interesting too that you said he had to keep up with uh ginger baker Who was obviously a famous, you know drummer at that time now as well, but they Was their competition in the drummer world of who's the best at that point? Yeah, definitely, but but but like you mentioned mitch is pretty much Known to the to the drummer world, but virtually the the mighty shadow of james marshal hendrix Overshadows bitch pretty much that whole time eventually When we discussed the founding of the Mitch Mitchell fan club, I'll explain We we I felt we had to do this because mitch was pretty much overlooked It's not because he wasn't great because henders was so huge Whereas ginger baker had a lot more press coverage in the 60s. Yeah Okay, good press coverage or bad press. Yeah, no, no good because of the double but double bass. He was a first Rock act with double bass. Yeah, and the first to do it extended solo before bonham was even doing that interesting and He's a character. He needs his own whole episode ginger baker. Oh, yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. That'll be remarkable I will say that when I post because I post a drum video every day on on social media And I just did one of ginger baker and he to this day I tell you what there are more comments of Man, he's overrated and then there's 25 replies saying he's the best drummer in the world. He gets more people worked up Than anyone else ginger baker. I mean and that just goes right along the the style of uh, of his personality You know and he and he would love that. Yeah, he'd love to get them all worked up And you know and be smoking and say yeah fight All right, so let's let's keep going with mitch because we're you know, I love this is a nice long episode and I love it But let's let's keep chugging her Okay, by by April 26 mitch has a a Small kind of a strange looking gretch kit. Tony Williams gave him Uh, I believe in march a bebop kit with 20 inch bass drum eight by 12 tom and a 14 by 14 floor tom And then mitch goes to manny's and tries to make that a double bass kit but they he gets a 24 inch bass drum and then Uh, another floor tom then he goes out to Maui In kala and at hawaii and does that famous rainbow bridge concert with the strangest looking drum set It's it's really too. It's clearly two drum sets a bebop kit on the on the Left side and a a heavier rock kit on the right And then by monday may 27th 28 29 30th He he has the the the gretch kit thing put together with two double bass 14 by 24 bass bass drums um in black cortex with a gold sparkle ring On the hoop And that's the kit he uses to through the last henricks concert all the way through from april till um, september When they play the isle famous isle of white concert and they play a small concert on the island of fardom germany So that last six months.  Yes, definitely. Okay. Okay, and it's very interesting By the by by 1970 mitches finally being miked up big time And if you watch if you watch Isle of white you'll see when they start up and they're doing a sound test those that gretch set sounds amazing amazing, but there's mics everywhere Finally, but but but but the but the uh, the uh Omnipresent loving 400 snare. He doesn't he uses that with with uh all the way through from six from 66 I'm skewed from 65 all to 1970 every drum set he ever uses regardless of brand has a loving 400 snare Yeah, I mean, I think we all know it but bass drum tom's It's it's one thing but your snare is your sort of your voice So that kind of makes sense that he wants to keep a consistent Voice buddy rich all the big ones kind of had their their particular like buddy with his fives snare and um Disguise is a ceiling alone Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's been that's another one too for another on different episodes, but yeah, that's cool I love I mean the gretch that's just looking at there's some high res pictures as well from that Concert in Maui and boy those are beautiful drums. I mean, there's just something sure and uh, When we discussed the replicas, uh, the Mitch Mitchell fan club has I I've created a 67 68 69 Ludwig replicas exact and Mitch we are going to do the double bass kit in 2022 cool a gretch that's coming That's awesome. So um, all right. Well As most people know, um, I believe in 1970 right jimmy Unfortunately as a young guy, uh passes away correct, so What what is that whole thing like I mean I just had to rock Mitch's world Mitch never We gets over it emotionally to the last day he drew breath on in this world Isha his daughter said my father never recovered from that. He lost his best friend His world was turned upside down and he never fully adjusted to it Yeah, and that's coming directly from Isha Mitchell's daughter. I think she's just become a dear friend of mine I've talked for hours about it um, he you know, he plays with uh, jeff back he jams with um He's in a band called ramattan. They released two albums Uh, there was a possibility he there is an indication. It was a possible drummer for emerson lake But palmer got the gig. Yeah Uh, he auditioned for for wings In a pal McCartney's band after post beatles 1974 um And he does various various things around england, but he was pretty much retired didn't really play that much Uh, from time to time he he he migrated to uh, yamaha kid in 90s. Oh cool Towards the very end there after 2004. He was uh, actually officially a dw artist His last drum set he played was dw. Oh cool. That makes sense. That's kind of a I mean dw is still huge, but in that that early 2000s that was really the drums to have I feel like every every time you turn on tv or any performance There was dw um Gosh was was he I I know You mentioned that because and same with jimmy and everyone but a lot of people in those days signing things and not really knowing what was going on Was he financially okay from from all the You know, he was he was okay. He was okay. I mean, but but he he was never got the um It was a word. He never got the percentage that he should have got yeah And then those are decisions people get upset at the current henridge henricks Ella henricks experience Experience henricks organization, but you can't really blame the mitch mitch has signed that made that mistake in this in this early Night night when he was 19 and 20. Yeah, so that that now that that was resolved that the henricks experience llc Mitch was booked on various gigs through the 90s and into up all the way to his passing in 2008 But he never enjoyed real financial success that I think he should have Now another here's another way of looking had jimmy survived jimmy lived past 1970 I'm sure mitch would have gotten a would have been would have passed away as a multimillion or worth a couple hundred million dollars Yeah, okay, and then obviously So at the end um, he he passed away as as as I would say a pretty He was not an old man. I mean he was what 61 when he passed away Now he he had a underlying medical condition that I don't I know about from from the family. I don't I'm not at liberty to say it was not It was not uh drugs and it wasn't alcohol. He had another serious Condition I had has to do with his His blood count or something and that that was causing problems for him for his last 10 years Yeah, and that and of course no one knew about it except the family So he he had a serious medical condition towards the end there that was that really aged him He's in the 60s. He looks like somebody in the mid 70s so that's so unfortunate, but but I mean He lived a great life he obviously Is we're talking about him still to this day, which is which is you know It's something that I'm I'm very happy that we get to share his legacy and carry it on. Um, it's just Fascinating. I think you're doing an amazing thing with the fan club um How did talk about the fan club? I mean is that I feel like we covered mitch pretty darn well I mean, is there anything else we want to talk about with mitch before we move on to the fan club We could do a couple more episodes just about the actual drumming parts But maybe for another time You know, it's it's a situation where you you hear this guy play And it takes you five or six or seven or ten years to get the technique that he had when he was 19 Yeah, one note about his plane is just it is so um Iconic and legendary and it just reminded me I almost forgot about it because it feels like uh, it feels like a lifetime ago but in 2019 I saw the uh experience Hendricks tour here in Cincinnati, um, which had Uh, Joe Satriani. It had Zach Wilde. It had weasel zappa. It had Chris Layton on drums who was playing um, mitch's parts and Going and seeing that and just hearing these drum parts played by someone else with which um, Chris Layton obviously who was a Stevie Ray Vaughan Did an unbelievable job, but I kind of remember thinking that there was something about Mitch's style of of the man himself playing it that it had a looseness to it that well, it's it swings Most rock drummers that play it They can kind of copy it. They can do fire and some of the but but he there's a swing to it There's a swing now. Can I give you three interesting quotes about mitch? Please. Yeah before we talk a little about the about the fan club Okay, this is from from drum magazine The innovator the legendary Mitch Mitchell was the world's first rocking drummer with jazzy chops and the most influential drummer of the 60s His work with jimmy Hendricks through every rock and roll drummer for a loop Mitchell successfully blended the improvisational freedom of jazz drumming with the speed power and flash of rock Now here's from another another article Mitch brought a jazz sensibility to the experience Which makes sense since his influence where elvin jones match roach and joe morello as we discussed He also excelled in at bringing improvisatory flourishes to hendrix opened and a guitar playing in the process He developed a unique chemistry with Hendricks unprecedented guitar playing that's never been equal and the last one There's two more Mitch Mitchell played Playing mixed the improvisation ingredients and rhythmic sense of swing Out of the jazz tradition with the audacity and power of rock and roll This combination meant that the art form of drumming would never be the same after Mitch Mitchell Mitchell was not alone in blending jazz and rock drumming styles But he may have pushed the concept farther and further than anyone before him and my last quote is from stewart culpin of the police who's a Huge mitch fan When it mitch stewart says when it seems that drums should be boring and when the band starts muttering about beating potatoes There's always mitch Mitchell to remind us otherwise He calls stewart calls mitch consistently since the 70s my favorite drummer That's awesome. I love All those quotes.  I mean it's right now jimmy's famous quote He turns around and looks at mitch. He goes that little guy. He scares me Oh, that's so awesome. So kevin what three or four songs do you think really Captured the essence of mitch mitchell because we've said he's jazzy. He's rock He's got his a very unique style, but where can we direct people to? You know hear exactly what we're talking about. Well, there's so many it's like, where do we begin? but there are Certainly some that are are so iconoclastic and bombastic That they made an enormous input one. Are you experienced first came out? Nobody had ever heard anything like that on guitar, but the drumming was Radically a step ahead of what we were had heard before the first time I I heard Third stone from the sun. I I was not believing what I was hearing. I'm hearing is Uh, I guess trippy kind of a psychedelic song with with this bebop jazz playing I I didn't even know who mitch mitchell was But I said my gosh, what this is so revolutionary And you know it starts off just Goes right into bebop playing then it switches to a rock feel And then it goes it goes like this long Guitar right back in this thing So you hear that you hear the chops of an elvin jones tony williams In this rock song. It was it's just uh remarkable. So That song it's the beginning to the end and then then then over the over the the guitar kind of Freak out mitch is going That kind of rudimental stuff those patterns. So that was really amazing the next song There's like I said, it did picking up picking up the songs is difficult up from the skies on On elect access bowls love is another radical departure because it starts off with under the brushes because it does the famous So you hear the song what on the world there's a jazz brushes on the first actual song of the album Pretty, you know pretty out there. He's he doesn't seem to care not I don't want to say he doesn't seem to care, but he seems to not be constrained by anything Well, I've said this before for years. I'm so grateful that jimmy let mitch be mitch And that's that's a remarkable thing. It wasn't oh Said a quarter stand a background. He wasn't intimidated at all by mitch's playing and it was uh, apparently so Experimental it was Perfectly cool with with with jimmy. So Totally. Yeah, and let me let me throw this in there, too I think people know because they've listened to the show before but With these with audio examples of one of the most famous, you know guitarists in the world It gets caught by copyright stuff pretty quick You kind of can you can put them on podcasts But I know that it's going to get caught up and if I put it on youtube or instagram or facebook it gets taken down Instantly like it just catches it within seconds. So I I'll put the names of these songs um in the Um description of the episode so people can do a little bit of homework and and listen to them separately But anyway, all right, what would be number three? Okay, if someone said to me what mitch Mitchell drumming with jimmy henricks establishes him forever as um A giant of percussion It would be voodoo child the 50 minute song in the in the middle of electric lady land That song was recorded about two o'clock in the morning.  Do you hear those background noise people have said for years all that was That was canned no the the studio was loaded with all these people and it was it was filmed by abc and then properly lost now when When the uh, it's it's a slow six eight song One two three four five six here's a blues boom boom box starts starts off Now the amazing thing is got steve windwood on on organ. Um, cool It's got jack casady from jefferson airplay on bass and mitch is just this total free form Uh, it's it's only 12 8 in reality now for years and years i've played i've tried to play this song incorrectly Then i then when the movie came out the making of are you experienced you see mitch playing that song for about five or six seconds And here is what he's doing which is is so mind blowing the song is one two three four five six one two three four But he's rocking back and forth one two three four five six one two three four five six So he's doing this three over two while he's playing the one two three four five six one two three four five six one three four and With that that weird little tilt thing you get the you get the proper feel if you don't do that It doesn't sound right and i'd played it for years and years and years and then when i saw that Oh, no, i understand. I mean theoretically what he's doing, but it's so advanced. He's playing this one and two three four five one two three four five six It's insane. It's so cool that you you notice that by his body movement. I mean sometimes you can't tell That's just the cool thing about drums is you can't tell what's happening like people can it can be the same thing we all hear but You we all we hear it slightly differently, you know, or we play it a little different If you actually listen to the to the song it starts off very slow, but as it gets in he gets into the The triple field and then he'll go he goes The the fills and they say okay It is too busy some people think but it's just remarkable Remarkably in bed if of course in the back of the other of the song is an extended solo, which is to this day It's like what is he doing? It's so remarkable And and then it comes it comes out kind of fades in and it's just a kind of deal with jimmy would be You know live and in recordings jimmy would kind of be Taking a puff of a cigarette do a little bit of tuning and mitch is over there doing this Explosive explosive insane stuff Jimmy looks at him and you know takes a puff on his cigarette puts it under there and It's just funny.  He's got to act cool, right? He's jimmy hendrix. Yeah, he he's so nonchalant mitch is back. They're just just tearing it off. Yeah That's funny. All right. How about one more? Um, and then we'll move on Okay, the other one will probably be it's it's so many people talked about it if six were nine Which is it's using several movies actually and it was a popular of very popular with vietnam veterans Actually, well, well, they're over there. It's it has very unusual weird kind of a vibe And once again, it does have an extended solo in the middle But it's it it's uh, it has a jazzy feel and that's that's the thing that makes mitch unique No matter what he plays there is a swing Lilt to it and if you and if you don't do put that in there doesn't really quite Uh, you know sound authentic and that's important authentic mitch I once got once quit a band because they wouldn't let me do mitch Mitchell You know, it was a hindrance cover band. I said, well, you got an authentic guitar, but you don't want authentic mitch. No, we don't want that We want it tight. I mean, that's the kind of thing where you can't I mean, I'm sure you could spend time learning it, but but that's what makes that's his voice is that particular Kind of swing and it's just like a flow to it that that you can't really read If you're reading the notes, it's not there. It's got to be mitch It it defines the concept of feel. We know time tempo Groove now one one last one last thing I want to add is buddy rich was asked what makes a great drummer He called him the five t's talent technique taste touch and time And certainly mitch had all of that. Yeah, absolutely one quick thing I want to add is uh, I didn't mention Is that vader vader drumstick company? I found us off to my local dealer in south florida Reservation dumps. They had a mitch Mitchell stick under development, but it was never released and uh, my um drum Deep percussion dealer chev lisa They know they know what you're doing with the mitch Mitchell fan club. You you want to help them finish that stick? I said, what are you doing? They said you have to do the artwork So I I added a mitch Mitchell signature, which is hard to find with a sharpie Because most were pens and then Mitch Mitchell's profile. So there is a vader mitch Mitchell stick It's not available yet on a website, but um They're remarkable six. They're about it. They're like a 10a. They have a barrel chip If they're a shorter stick, they're they're remarkable stick. That's awesome That's a perfect way to kind of wrap up that that the the mitch biography now Give us some info about the mitch Mitchell fan club And I wanted to say right off the bat people should go on facebook and find the mitch Mitchell fan club on facebook You've got about 4,200 members. I mean this is yes. This is a you're doing it man This is I love that you're you're keeping the legacy alive Well, I started in 2013 when I joined facebook and I looked for a facebook page. I mean a fan page.  There was keep moon Buddy rich, but there was nothing about mitch Mitchell. I said I couldn't believe it. I told my wife so I I started it with really a couple pictures It's my some of my friends my drum students. I've had a lot of drum students over the years And then it's it's it's zoomed into what it's it's what it is now, but musicians from all over the world drummers family members friends people that knew mitch mitch and um The mitch Mitchell fan club was founded sunday morning july 7th dozens and hundreds of mitch fans Worldwide quickly began to join and post comments remember since the pictures which now comprise the largest collection of mitch Mitchell pictures on the internet So it in In a year ago in september 18th on the 50th anniversary of jimmy's passing it occurred to me What would it be like to? recreate one of the mitch kits so I decided to build an exact replica of of mitch's 1967 Silver sparkle kit and that and by january of night of 20 Uh, 20 21. I'm sorry by 2020. I had an exact replica of mitch's 67 solo sparkle So um, because I you know, I it's seen various pictures now the the the big the five and upon gorilla Of course is the 68 natural maple kit. I spent three years trying to find one But the problem was they were all drilled all had had had Spurs there was no such thing as a virgin bass drum unless it was a marching Finally my local dealer Jeff Lee at resurrection drums here in south florida. Kevin. You're gonna have to bite the bullet You really need to get A modern version of this kit. He said I'll tell you I'll tell you what the Ludwig A legacy maple is is three ply with reinforcement hoops. He said that that is a kit That's the closest you're ever gonna get so base. I ordered it. It was delivered january Of 2020 and then I spent three days demodernizing it We're moving all the modern uh stuff The the the the grommets the the backing of the lugs. I had to change the tension rods And then I had a brand new This is a $4,000 drum set. Yeah, and I had drill drill drill into it That's gotta be a weird feeling But you got to do what you got to do it shows your dedication to uh authenticity Yeah, yeah, it's uh and a lot of these things is you know, I basically had to trust mitch, you know When all those fells what would mitch do so I said, okay. Well, just you know And it works. He knew exactly where things were supposed to go the drilling positions of the the tom mounts and all that sort of thing And it works. It really works. It's it's I can't tell you what it's like to go to a drum show and have three mitch Mitchell replicas and see young people playing them and people going. It's just it's phenomenal It's living history.  It's it's awesome and I I do like that. It's mitch mitchell too. It's not I mean, there's buddy rich. There's gene krupa. There's john bonham. There's these guys I mean mitch mitchell is is is kind of his own cool little I don't know he fits right in there. He's not the most uh, loud Personality that that is uh, you know has these famous stories. He lived a longer life than a lot of the guys which really sometimes if you if you pass away when you're 30 or 32 then um You become that comes a part of your legend, but he lived a pretty long life and I think you're doing a great thing Um spreading the knowledge. Yeah. Well, thank you very much my a little bit about my background um I was a self originally self-taught drummer like a lot of us Starting inspired by the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan show in february of 64 just like gary at my buddy gary asridge Who's uh ringos curator? Yep, and the self-taught on the road I know it sounds hard to believe on the road when I was 17 years old with all the people at international show that year We performed at 26 of the same venues that the experience Had had played and we sometimes missing them by a week and that what we're talking about the 69 and um 69 and 70 Then I got out went to college you got a Partially I got a degree then I joined the united states marine drum and bugle core in washington dc They went to their drum core school. They finally taught me how to hold a pair of six correctly And uh, you know if we graduated from the university of wyoming of all places and then um You know moved to miami south florida and I've been here ever since it was a high score history teacher playing a lot of gigs But you know, I I would watch I would watch uh when the internet came out and I I would I go to ebay and look at all these cool parts, you know You see pictures of mitch and look at the little the the problematic. I'd be sitting in my in the lunch break and I'm looking at What are you doing? I'm alone. I'm looking at a Swimmatic thing for sale on ebay people were like what? So it was it was slowly evolving evolving. I guess you don't you work this out almost unconsciously And then I realized hey, you could do this. Yeah, you could actually buy these parts so now the trick is The difficulty is of course finding mint conditioned parts because if I'm gonna if I'm gonna do replicas of the sets are brand new I gotta somehow find 1960s hardware that looks new that was the that's the big challenge. Yeah Now now speaking of replicas this this is where I looked at it. I talked to gary asher's about this who's really I've divided replica drums into three categories. There is historic replicas, which are the actual a Era 60 all if you're doing gringo, it's got to be 60s stuff all 60 stuff hardware And drums then there's if you can't find it then you then you're going to have to go to a cosmetic replica It's going to be it's going to look like it, but it might be a 1975 Tom and then there's a Mix of would be it would be historic and cosmetic The 68 kit is the drums are Modern 20 21 drums everything else is historic. So there's historic cosmetic and historic cosmetic mix Yeah, which you've had to do a bit of a bit of everything, right? Each set is really that that the the 60 69 Black Panther Woodstock kit is is absolutely historic everything's from that era. It's everything so cool Man, well, okay. So this is I mean we could talk all day. There's so much to talk about with Mitch which with I love doing these biography episodes. It's been a while since I've done one What's the best way for people to? Join the fan club to see what you're doing to keep up with your shows all that You know all that good stuff join the family like Ludwig says so so famously Well, of course you go to a bitch virtual fan club on facebook and something new that my brother and I have started It's called Mitch drummer calm. That's a website that goes beyond just facebook and that's It's it's growing. We have Mitch Mitchell merchandise there sound samples So Mitch drummer is is brand new. It's only about a month old Great and it's it's it's growing and growing and growing We'll list our drum schedules the the first drum show we're going to for sure is We'll be in May the Chicago show. I've already booked a couple booths there We went out to Tacoma, Washington Uh back in august during a record heatwave And for a very small show, but the important thing about that show is we actually got to meet the people at hendrick's um experienced hendrick's llc the the main drum guy is mike musburger. He pretty much uh Uh became fast friends. He joined the fan club We were my brother and I was scheduled my brother Keith and I was scheduled to go to the hendrick's vaults in Seattle And see all the original stuff But I had to come back on it kind of an emergency And we'll be we'll be going out there But that was a wonderful experience because we had the official unofficial blessing of the hendrick's people out there And in seattle. That's great. Um, and also it was revealed to us There were a few discrepancies in the 69 kit that we nobody was aware of now in my in my High praise and thanks to mike musburger out there in seattle. I sent the two missing parts on mitch's actual woodstock kit that had been stripped Uh for the gretch 1970 kit. He was missing the the center center plate for the toms and he was missing um, the um the knobby Elarm tom bracket. So I sent him I sent them brand not brand new but mint conditioned parts so that mitch's kit out there That's missing those two parts are now fully is fully restored. So that's great. Wow Well, man, this has been uh An awesome look at mitch mitchell's life and I hope everyone's enjoyed it and um, again go to mitch drummer calm And just really I think a great place for everything is on facebook mitch mitchell fan club You'll find it pretty easily if you if you search for it. So um Yeah on that note, uh, I want to thank major simon for joining us today and sharing his immense knowledge and passion Which is very contagious and um, I think the best thing everyone can do is go and listen to some mitch mitchell Put on some jimmy hendrick songs today and enjoy it. Well bar. Thank you very much for it's my heart my honor to be here And uh, you folks have sold such dedication devotion to the history of drumming in so many facets Way beyond anything else that's there. There will be coming soon A YouTube channel dedicated first to mitch and then eventually other drummers The big thing is if you want to play the mitch style, you're going to have to really woodshed those rudiments And and and listen to the right guys. Absolutely. Well, this is a great starting point so people can go Go practice the rudiments. All right major simon. Thank you for joining me today And I look forward to meeting you in person at the next chicago show in may of 2022 Thank you very much. Here is the possibility. We might be at the uk drum show In march in lippapool working on it. Awesome. Well, good luck with everything. Thank you very much If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history And please share rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning


Thanks for checking out this episode of brutal battle beer break today. I'm gonna be doing something. I love quite a bit It's a double IPA or Imperial IPA Double dry hopped as well And this is by another brewery that I've not talked about before pretty local called South County Brewing and Excuse me. They're out of fawn Grove, Pennsylvania This is a 7% alcohol double IPA and It's actually I just noticed I don't notice this with many cans, but it's got that shrink wrap Label on it, which I've heard is very economical at this point Especially for breweries and want to do small runs of things and kind of figure out what they want to do long run But a pretty nice Label there looks very peaceful very woodsy called liminal moment And I actually looked up what liminal means and liminal is basically like something in the middle. It's transitional So I don't know if that's a comment about where they are right now as a brewery Like this is a transitional moment like when they're about to break from being really small to you know being bigger Or it has to do with this beer, you know, maybe this beer is a liminal Point where it's transitioning between, you know, I Don't know. I don't know where I was going with that But maybe it has to do with the beer with the flavors and how they come together But anyway, I'm more interested in just trying this beer So liminal moment double IPA double dry hopped double IPA Definitely up my alley Well, it looks like a double IPA as I poured it's very very orange Relatively clear. It's got some some decent sized bubbles coming off the bottom decent head to it Oh very very citrusy Orangey a lot of orange to it orange peel orange fruit There's a bit of a caramely note coming through at the end just right under all that orange, but it's a lot of citrus Right up front and that's that's a nice citrus Little bit of like a candied smarties type note like a sugary Citric candy Mmm Smells really good. It smells really good. It doesn't smell too resinous though I mean, I guess 7% it's on the lower side for like an imperial style But um, it doesn't smell like it's going to be super thick A little thicker than I thought it would be um It's tasty the the citrus notes are dialed back quite a bit from what I was expecting There's a little bit of a piney quality on there I'm definitely getting those caramely aspects that I was talking about Citrus is still there a lot of bitterness that makes it kind of like an orange peel Decent bitterness on the end which continues to build a little bit This is I I mean I guess it could be kind of like a liminal moment in the sense that it's bringing The citrus notes and the pine notes together with nice like caramely Malt backbone at the same time. So it's kind of like It's in that transitional period where it's not flying to the pine. It's not flying over to the citrus It's not flying over to like malt sweetness. It is kind of like in the middle It's mixing everything almost on the same level um It's a good beer. I'm not a massively huge fan And um, I've heard really good things about this. So I'm glad that people really like it I do like it. I don't love it, you know, and I'm actually as I keep drinking I'm getting more perception of the alcohol This is tasting a little bit more to me like an 8% as opposed to like a 7% It's kind of burning the tad bit But solid beer definitely a beer that I would drink and could drink and We'll drink right now but um Oh, I meant to say I will say for this episode and the last episode, please apply it to that The one with the manor hill brewing grissette Big thank you and shout out to Shane McCarthy and Ross Miller from Ronnie's beverage warehouse They provided me with both of the beers and they were very gracious to do so because I just like trying new beers So anyway, um south county. I've heard a lot of great stuff about you. This is a solid Double IPA. So thank you for doing that. I can't wait to see where you guys go because I know you're relatively new So I want to come up there and I want to check out your stuff pretty soon Because like I said heard really good things we're gonna make it up to fawn grove Pennsylvania is not far for me. Anyway, thanks everyone for checking this out and check out all the other episodes, please And if you have suggestions just send it into brutal battle podcast at gmail.com. I'll shout out your name or whatever Anyway, thank you everyone. Go have an awesome beer