want to master that and you know what awesome, right? Like more power to you but that's But not everybody likes that, right and it leans towards certain psychographic profiles Yep, um and and those battle titans are leaning towards a certain psychographic profile and for some of us that's just not fun Yeah, that's totally fair. Yeah Now there was one more point you made in this in this section. I think it's worth sort of exiting out We get our last point of discussion here in this section and it was about uh Sort of smashy smashy Uh, yes of the game like aos is a very deadly destructive game, right?  This this kind of back and forth thing, right? Yes. Okay. So and and oftentimes, uh This can so there's two things I'll say to this That I want to get out there and then I want to I want to get more of your take on it. Okay. Um One is that And you know, I I'm I'm opening a door here, which I'm going to regret Uh, but that's okay Is that that is very much the case at lower points games than it often is at 2000 point games? Uh, and but the that's there's a whole separate discussion We can discuss the 2000 point game controversy in a moment. There's a lot to unpack there Okay, I I only wish it to say at this moment The only point I'm making is that when you go down into the lower points that will happen a lot more Uh, often than it will at And it won't have the same impact. Let me say it that way in a 2000 point game. That's that's what I actually mean Um, because you'll still kill things and blow things up. It's just one of the same impact on the game I totally agree with that and and the point is that this the issue is the exact same at at 2k points You just have more stuff that can die and that that is the only thing that makes it different And that is a problem that is bad game design Everything has insane kill potential And that and that means that I need things in my army that is express purpose is to die And that's that feels like A kluji mistake.  That's what it feels like to me at least Yeah, sure. I I don't think so. I think it was absolutely intentional just because I mean aos has always had Fantasy warhammer fantasy has always had chaff like if you didn't play chaff and fantasy you were dead in the water Um, like as a side Uh, it it historically maps to you know war to sure. It's put the archers out in front or whatever they can die Yeah, like you had chaff like yeah, you didn't put your best warriors On the front line like that's not how this worked But but I don't care about any illusions to history like sure That's fine a game can can mimic real world sort of fighting or not and that that Has no value other than if you like that thing if you like that thing and it doesn't mimic it Cool than that has value to you, but it doesn't have like some intrinsic good game bad game You know direction to it, right? Um, but like if you value that kind of thing cool, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with valuing it I'm just saying it doesn't immediately put your finger on goodness. Um The Aos is designed and certainly fantasy was as well As a trading game Right, uh, where like the point of the game Is not actually to Not lose pieces like you're it's like chess chess is a trading game as well Right, like you you can't win a game at chess without trading pieces like chess is the most classic trading game in the world right Like you're trying to ultimately sacrifice pieces that are of lower value to capture pieces that are of higher value of your opponents That's I guess the most simple dumb explanation of chess in the history of the world, right? Um, that's certainly what warhammer fantasy was and what aos is now You're trying to bait your opponent into basically wasting their impetus power charge mobility hammers, whatever on lower value pieces Uh, so that you then secondary attack tertiary attack setup situations that then put those pieces out of the game Remove them kill them weaken them Blunt them or they're the the impact they can have on the game. All right. That's the back and forth It's the the tempo of the game right As an aside, this is also why Oftentimes rain shootings disproportionate because it actually ignores that Target selection like that tempo that exchange because it chooses what it wants to fight Not what the chat walls you put out for Right, exactly. So like shooting can go to the top of it Hence it's an eight power flying units hence have a lot of power, right?  That's their point their point is to be able to take a charge and live right there They're the other alternative to chat, which is like I can just push the anvil out there I can push out my 15 hearth guard berserkers not those actually do kill things, but nonetheless, I can push them out there and go You know, this unit will just survive right and I think that's fine. I think it's fine that For a game to be designed that way I think that a game doesn't have to be designed that way. There are also plenty of very good games that aren't trading games Right, like that's there's you can still have you can have strategy in a trading based game and strategy in a not Trading based game like that that is actually doable Right, both things can be true Okay But one of the consequences because all decisions in game design have consequences in my mind is that when you say For this game to function as a trading game and to feel like it's supposed to be feeling Then you're gonna have to have hammers anvils something mobile chaff Some hero guide a buff and tie it all together whatever right like, okay Well, that's some number of units that you have to have and all those cost some number of points And like in smaller point games you don't necessarily fill all of those buckets right and the The easy thing to take at low points games is often just a lot of hammers Right that kind of becomes the incentive and then it just ramps to like a million because No one has chaff and everybody's just like smash smash smash back and forth So the game Consequentially does just play more poorly at less than a thousand points. Like it's just true I you know, I think that is a real thing um You know and and and obviously plays optimally At 2000 no, I don't think too like a lot of people have said like oh 2000 is the only thing It's this golden mean Uh, I play a lot of 1500 point games a lot like most of my weekends are actually 1500 point games. They're great games That's enough like you have enough points at 1500 to still have the full experience I never feel like we aren't playing a full game. I have chaff. I have All the units roles filled like I can do it So it's not as though it's like 2k or bust But there is definitely a point where it falls off and just kind of stops functioning Right, so that's what I would say Uh, I don't know scott. I'm gonna throw it back to you. What do you think about? I just went on quite a ramble okay, um, I think uh I think when you equate it to chess where a A piece takes another piece and it's a binary reaction. Sorry. Uh, it's a binary, uh interaction Like your whole piece just died That's kind of like in aos when like your whole unit just got annihilated by my vampire lord unsomely dragon um So that's an interesting way to think about it and that's definitely new to me and I but my my maybe pushback would be that You can have a trading game that doesn't involve losing your entire unit And and my most interesting, uh, experiences in aos so far i've been playing against um Uh, sorry the nergal warriors of chaos faction that name has escaped me for some reason right now Very fine the bag of cannon durgle. Yep. I got you exactly. Thank you playing against, uh, playing against that faction because they are so Tanky and not super killy at least when the in the small point tools that I've been playing and so classic classic attrition army Yep, they they work you down Yeah, so I'll hit a unit. I'll kill some, you know, the you know, the the respond in kind and it's very interesting I actually the first game I played at 500 points was against Magikinem nergal and it was it was so interesting the game had so much movement Um, and the the battle reports out there if you want to watch it on manyx backlog It's the first it's one of the first videos on the channel and that was so much fun And the question I posed was can aos be interesting or fun at 500 and in that case the answer was yes And I wasn't killing whole units like I still had a unit of blood nights I was getting buffed up with rousing commander and like all these amazing things And I you know, I was hitting things hard and it was interesting. It was compelling I wasn't so like that's still to me is still trading But i'm just not i'm just not annihilating everything in one in one swing, right? Yeah, sure No, no, I get you and I think this is where it very much comes to like for me This is a and I kind of alluded to this very early in the show Um, to me, this is a huge strength of the game, right? But I I completely get the point of view you're coming from right and part of this might be like the Part of this can certainly rely result in army choice because as you mentioned like oh nergal That's interesting kind of how that's working and stuff like that, right? So like certain armies will have certain play styles that can they can lean more into what you're talking about like to me This is one of the I love going into a unit like when I attack unit. I don't want to leave anybody standing I want everyone. I mean neither do I I want to kill everything too It just like, you know, just feels a little bad because it feels like everything is so important Like I'm going to annihilate this and if I don't that was the expectation And I am like now behind in a significant way. Sure. I mean, I don't know and that's you know, it's it's funny because I I do think it's interesting when those things play out when you have to use your hammers in different ways Like I had a game against just one of the absolute best players in the midwest several years back at at an event and he was playing fire slayers and I was playing my slinish slaves to darkness and I ended up getting in a fight with His earthguard berserkers in the very center of the table with archaeon. Okay So this is this was like archaeon backed up with a keeper of secrets who came in behind So it's archaeon and a keeper at the time. This is like this is the height of that that sort of nonsense, right? and fighting like the worst Most tankiest attrition anvil that ever existed right like the unit that cannot be killed So the two killiest pieces in the game going at the unit that cannot be killed right the irresistible force and the immovable objects, right? and We had like so this fight just happened and it read on For like the game Basically, right it started very early and just the game the center of the board was this fight So the actual game became us using all the rest of our pieces that wasn't that Because those those were just locked in and I was like slowly weeding him down and probably going to win the fight But it was going to take until like turn four or five, right? So it was how could we use the rest of our pieces? In the best way possible to actually decide the outcome of the game, right? So I I totally get where you're coming from there Because it when you have some of that back and forth and have to use your pieces in these In these different ways where it's not just like a kills b But then x kills a and then I kill x and you know, whatever, right? Like you get what I'm saying, right? Um When you like that that's a perfectly valid way to play and there are some armies that do that completely right, um But there are some armies that I think do play that very very differently and that's I I like things that that actually smash through and try to win but I also like armies like Skaven, which very much don't work like that, right? It's it's Skaven often played by like death of a thousand cuts Where yeah, sure like there there is a hammer or two in the army that like if they get the right charge on the right unit They can Explode it But for the most part you got to win through like working down working down working down, you know picking them apart Right, like like just trying to hit the pressure points constantly You know and so I think it it it varies a lot by the army and the experience and what that individual army Plays and how it plays some armies are better at just doing the I explode everything you've got but then I explode style Right Yeah, that's fair and maybe it's just because I haven't experienced a lot of factions in the game yet Just the ones that are in my escalation league But it feels like every army I'm playing other than megan and nergal has like some big alpha strike thing They're trying to do And like maybe at one to three points in the game and if it doesn't work out It's it's awful and if it does then it's awful for me, you know, it's just like sure very swingy thing It sounds like those are also like sub You know 2000 point games like right like that sounds like because again that is how that point level plays And that's just a design flaw in that sense Yep, just a bag of hammers Yeah, get out the bag of hammers It's hard to go wrong with a bag of hammers. You throw it someone it's it's a bag of hammers. It's great Who doesn't love a bag of hammers? Okay, cool Um, good. Well in the essence of not losing our minds, let's move on to the last topic the place where we will have the biggest disagreement Let's go all right Randomness randomness and psychology Okay preference We All right. We're out of here. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah. No, I mean I hate that that is the answer right like that is what a lot of this is going to boil down to Okay, um Randomness, you know, you you talked to there's there's a lot of different Again, we'll split this up and just because you mentioned different sub elements and some of them. I actually do agree preference In toleration Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's not just what you prefer. It's also what you can tolerate. It's a good point, tom The the needle doesn't just up up here in the positive. It's not a binary, right? It can swing down. There's a scope in the negative too Okay, some of the things I pulled out of your video that I think I want to talk about in this section Rolls for rolls for rolls Okay, like an abundance of rolling Yeah, um, and and the associated chances for lots of things um prior roll You know and like how much of the game's outcome is determinative by Randomness, right? So like you you would kind of just picked a random number that I'm sure you kind of just picked out of your head That number was 15 right of like this is how much of the game should be determinative by that Okay, and so on and so forth, right? But in general this all rolls up into the broader category of sort of randomness, right? um Okay So I want to get the agreement part out of the way first I guess I just we we got to get it out of the way because you you made a really good point Which is a thing that drives me Absolutely wild in this game Which is rolls for rolls for rolls one of my least favorite things We have lambasted it on this show multiple times Please stop Please stop Please stop like a spell where it's like you cast the spell Then you roll higher than their bravery then on a four up then they take some random number of wounds How many dice do I need to roll before we get to an effect?  I love rolls Like I really you know, you're not even right now. You like that. No like but again I like I'm okay with us rolling a hundred dice and having no game state change So like I don't mind and then as an insurance player Like I was the guy that had re-rollable saves double saves when that used to be allowed Right where Vince would put everything in and I would remove like one model from a 30 man Maybe yes, like I hit him with my hardest hammer and he moves one guy out of 30 people And I'm like, oh, this is really fun. This is really fun And I'm like I'm like sweet. I'm in like let's do this I can do this all day, right? You know you say that tom, but you don't love those kinds of spells. You don't use those spells You don't use spells that are rolls for rolls for rolls for rolls Like I see that as different things those those two examples like one is like i'm the player I'm experiencing the negative side of that and the other part is you know I am buffing my unit to make it more tanky to re-roll armor saves that feels a little different. Maybe Yeah, this is just like the base mechanic of the thing absent choices is requiring 50 dice right That i'm less interested in that and i'm more interested in reliability and roll what I just described to you of the re-rollable saves double ward save Is reliability for toughness with for durability I and I care which is very different as well And I'm talking about the complete opposite side of that because this is the this is anti reliability Right, but my point is I think everybody hates this Like there's just a section of like spells that'll do this a lot with artifacts too Where it'll be like once a game you can roll a die and on a three up Then you get to pick every unit within three inches and roll a die and they take that it's just like oh my god stop Why why are you like this?  Okay Cool, like yes, this is a dice game. I rolled to do the thing. I would now like to do the thing We've that's it next Right and like You could have a roll that has a secondary roll If it's just like now roll for damage, of course. Well, sure that's going to be a roll for a roll, right? That's fine. It's a random amount of damage. I get it, right? Um, or it's like a roll for an effect on the backside.  Cool. That's fine. I don't mind that That's fun. Right. What a neat thing.  I love that. I love blowing up my own unit It's hilarious. Okay Like a risk-reward mechanic. Great. Okay Fine there are so again, but it can just get nonsensical and you know it when you see it. So please stop. All right We all agree that I get out of the way. All right okay Now let's talk about the stuff we disagree with because uh I like that a lot of things in the game Happen on a roll and are not reliable Uh, what I mean by that is like you gave a couple specific examples like you mentioned the The writer's ruin thing I think uh, and then you also mentioned like roar and stuff like that Um, I like that those things are random Because it does mean that there is a chance that they fail and that they don't always work and that they're not reliable And that spike can't just come in and ruin my game By doing all the most reliable things all the time and sap all of the randomness out of the game um I you know like all of those things are Are valuable to me because they do provide For variability in experience But I understand that at the bottom of this is probably psychology Right like I am very tolerant of randomness. I am very tolerant of wild effects You know scaven was my first army. You got to love randomness deeply to want to play scaven uh, and and so like Accepted that I am different than you and you have a different tolerance slash preference for this thing right Yeah, I think I think we can really boil it down to that and I think you know furthermore I think it's really a scott problem and let me I didn't explain this at all in the video But I have this this need and I don't know why to understand Where someone is coming from and so when I when I if if everyone that talked about aos was just like Where's having fun? You know where it is crazy things are happening. It doesn't matter like who cares? I'd be like, oh Okay, but the perception that I get from aos and maybe it's with people that I hang out with is that it's a Crunchy competitive game and I'm like, oh, that's what it is Okay Now I'm going to treat let treat it like that and think about it like that and then I experience all these things that Feel like they undermine the strategy of the of the game This you know the spikes of the game, which is like for me what a crunchy competitive experience is and it's like wait a second like I You know, I lost because because of like xyz factor that I had no control over and that's like that's like the ultimate Competitive game sin to me, right? And you know, of course, I'm assuming things, you know, like I probably lost for a number of factors Um, but did does that make any sense when I'm coming from on that? It does. I mean it it it completely does make sense. I so And and let me use that to segue into a point here You had mentioned that like the determinative factor in games shouldn't you know, like again, you just threw out a number I'm not saying you're like, you know going to the mattresses over this was like 15 percent, right? um and Should be determined by sort of randomness of the of the victory or you know, whatever like again I please don't people get hung up on that number. I'm just using it as a baseline to sort of to make a point which is um Like we know from statistical modeling that where What you experience How much randomness effectively impacts the game? Is almost completely determinative by your point on a skill curve Okay So at the low end of the skill curve and the high end of the skill curve We did a whole show on this basically Randomness has almost no impact on the game Okay, and you see this because there are there's a cadre of tournament players That will go to a lot of tournaments. They are extremely high-skill players They play very competitively and they're in the top 10 at every tournament they're in Okay, like that if if randomness was having an outsized effect Those people wouldn't be five and knowing every tournament they go to it just wouldn't happen Right because they would they would have lost to randomness But Caleb wolters is going to go 4 1 or 5 0 with his inch Every every time basically from now until eternity All right, because that's just the level of skill. He's at Okay, it's a question of does he beat tom in round five or does he lose to somebody else who's a better player? That's the only question, right? See what I see what I did there tom. See how I got there. I got you. Um so like At the low skill they lose because they just don't have the skill to actually outcompete their opponent right that like randomness They could randomness can't save them effectively at the high end. It can't hurt them at the low end It can't save them now the interesting part about The skill curve is that in the middle section Okay Like let's say You're a I don't know let me just make up some random term for somebody who would be In the middle section and want to play like a relatively competitive game But even though they were actually a casual person, I'll just pick I'm just going to put some words together here scott Okay, just again. They said I'm just grabbing this randomly Uh, what if you're like a so-so pro for example? Oh my god. Yeah, people took that term and ran away with it in a heinous way I know I know and I had to give you that big build up for that I could see you just just just slowly dying as I built that but like No, like in the middle ground of skill and I totally understand your point because it's the same three levels I always talked about with with like magic and back in the way and stuff like that, right?  Yeah Right, that's a level of skill.   Of course. I'm not a pro, but like if I if I give it this this delimiter Where does the confusion come from? Like I see everyone in chat is going off right now I actually need to realize how much of a thing that phrase was I thought was just like a little thing that hey will mention you had an issue with but like To me it was like it was you know, I just I thought people were just looking at it in a vacuum But like what what was the deal with that? I'm confused Uh, it's a funny sounding rhyming word. You accidentally made up a very catchy thing. That's it. Yeah I mean, it's uh, it's actually a term me my friends use we made a youtube channel about because we're all tryhards We everything we do We want to like be the best we can with the time we have invested and so we call ourselves so-so pros but like um And they're I never meant to to imply or mean that I'm any kind of professional just that no, of course not a casual tryhard I totally got what you're going for. I think I think everybody just thinks it's funny, right? Okay. Cool. Yeah, it just sounds funny I don't think anybody's I think that's actually where a lot of for example players who watch the show probably are Right, I mean, yeah, yeah, of course Couple cars. Yeah, because like yeah, I mean you just accidentally stumbled upon something extremely catchy and funny sounding like there you go Right So but to me like in that so to return back to my point, right in that middle moment. Yeah, yeah, this was your slap shop moment Scott, this was it.  How to be a so-so pro painter I say just go for it. Um, let's do it lean into it. Um, okay So in that middle part randomness actually does have a very high impact on the game So what I mean by that is at these two ends the skill curve It's way below your sort of 15 percent number in the middle section of the skill curve It's above your your number Does that make sense what I'm saying there? Okay. And so like so it's interesting because people will experience it quite differently depending on where they are on sort of the learning curve of the game and their own sort of Experience capabilities blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right Uh casually competitive said all by a so-so pro beanie hat. There you go. Like this Scott this has merch written all over it my friend. This is like This at uni buddy. It's a goldmine. You're sitting on absolutely like this is you gotta you know turn that that frown upside down This is this is a money-making opportunity for you, right? Hey, whoa said copywriting the merch be right back get out of here. Hey, whoa, it's mine I mean casually competitive is the same thing. You know as someone said Uh Someone said see that doesn't ring that doesn't roll off the tongue with the same rhyme. You just got it Go-so pro is punchy. Yeah. Okay. I'm cool. I did not know this Yeah, man. I agree. I'll buy the I'll make an apron. I'll buy it so so pro painter That's that's going right on an apron. Like I'd be good for that. I'd be in Okay. All right, sounds good Um Yeah, so I like that that's what occurred to me when I was listening to the the the discussion of randomness, right? Is that one there's a psychological element to it like we discussed but two different players will experience it differently Like so as a competitive game played highly competitively. Yes, randomness has almost no outcome on the overall effect of the game Right, it will be extremely Determinative by You know player skill, right? Um, but in the middle it will be highly determinative Effectively and so that's an interesting place for the game to be right that's challenging and that comes from that timmy swinginess of the game I think Interesting. It's it's so interesting the I want to watch that one hammer weekly where you you show that the game's Randomness which seems like there is just it's just a disease in every part of the game is somehow I mean, I guess if you look at enough games and and analyze enough games, you will see a definitive trend But I I I want to see the the math in that in that episode. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah Yeah, it was really great It's um, and you know, I'll I'll see if I can dig it up and I'll link it down in the description So other people can go back and watch it too because it was just it was really fun Um, and and yeah, it's it's interesting because I mean you see it just like I said You know the sort of proof point in the in the pudding Is that you have this cadre of players that are consistently 4 1 5 0 at the top? Again, that wouldn't be possible if the game had a high random determination They would just accidentally go lower sometimes right because if it was being like 30 Determinative then that would mean they just sort of accidentally lose some 30 subsection of their games, right? They they couldn't scale their way out of it, but they don't you know They lose 10 of their games or something or 5 percent, right? um Okay cool Uh, and you know what this all comes to You know, I mean we're talking randomness. There's a right. Oh, maybe that's right. We got to talk about that priority role You know y'all didn't out there think we weren't going to discuss priority okay uh Dude, let me just say the the the day I heard That people actually like the prio role. I was just like I was blown away Sure, and then I and then I asked you I was like I was like do spikes think that everyone thinks like them and you were like Yes, and I was like, oh my god. Everything makes so much more sense now. Um, but yeah, let's talk about prio Yeah, man I mean so I you know rob made a very nice simple graph in one of in like his response video that talked that was like the sort of game turn experience right the sort of variability of uh of a You go I go game versus the alternating Uh prio or versus the prio role game and like the sort of permutations of how it can go um But the prio role Which I deeply love deeply Okay, I love it for a wide selection of reasons I will cover these very quickly because I don't want to monopolize this conversation Sure one it One of the most valuable elements in game design is how you choose to use suspense and surprise Okay, the moments of suspense and surprise are what creates emotional investment and attachment to a thing And you can see this in different sports. So like soccer is a game of extremely high suspense Right and extremely high surprise, which is one of the reasons it's like very I probably quite popular world over right by high Think about how many times are they like driving driving driving driving down like are they going to get are they going to get it? No, okay going back. Uh, no No, that you get games. They're like one to zero. That's a soccer score Right and that's because like the surprise moment is they actually get the goal The suspense moment is all this driving back and forth. You know the fans live in this constant state of suspense right Whereas other sports don't have that same kind of thing like Uh, basketball doesn't tend to have the same amount of suspense Oftentimes, it's a lot of just back and forth and you get two points and then they get two points And then they get two points and they get two points, you know like until somebody gets on a run right somebody does like Oh, it's a 12 to run Or you know, whatever. Okay, but it has moments of of like high surprise like high high high surprise Buzzer beater shots, right like miracle three-pointers You know like dodging a defender and and dunking like these are all moments of just like high surprise when they come out of nowhere, right? um, okay That's all I use those kinds of analogies just to make things non-controversial AOS has And and the priority role itself generates a moment of both extremely high suspense because you know it's coming Right Right, but it doesn't generate a lot of surprise. It's a moment of suspense You know, there's only two possible outcomes like you're gonna win and get the and and and have a choice or i'm gonna win and have a choice And and that could result in double turn or not The surprise moments come from the rng that we talked about here, right? Like that's the I swung in I rolled a lot of dice They all turned out really well and your unit evaporated or alternatively you rolled really well and your unit just went Nope, we're still here By all accounts like to the 99th percentile you should have killed me But we live beyond the third standard deviation now what you're gonna do Right, like that's a moment of surprise. Okay And to me that suspense of the prior role every time just really adds a lot to the game emotionally Okay, so like i'm not talking about any game consequences right now or anything like that, right? Because i'm just talking from the emotional state Now game wise it can be a catch-up mechanic It can also be a beat-down mechanic right because that can happen you can get You can be on the back foot and then get doubled and then stuff like that But it influences and makes a lot of it flows out to a lot of choices how you build your lists How you choose to trade how you move like it adds a lot of skill testing to the game which I enjoy but but Even I will admit it has a dark side because it is an extremely skill testing element and When it is very hard for new players to navigate for even casual players to navigate right Because when played as sort of straight games it can oftentimes be just like a I roll I won I got the double I beat you down now and that's it And that's how it can often shake out right because extreme high skill testing mechanics when not utilized become Um Loose can become gotcha points lose points for other players Right, and that's the challenge with it ultimately Um, it is one of those things that's legitimately like yeah Sometimes a new player will pull out a win because of it or something But it can also be something that can just beat them into the ground and make them feel like they lost Reasons that were completely out of their control that absolutely will happen So it's a mechanic that I love but that has a heck of a dark side Okay, which I which I must be honest about but I wouldn't want to see it go away from the game Um in its current form So there you go. That's that's my defensive it Uh, okay, but yeah, I mean Yeah, I suspect I know where you're coming from but but what do you think like what's your I obviously you're not a fan But spike's not not a fan of this sort of thing in general But do you think it's like what do you think I'm trying to unpack that? What do you think it you know gets you about it? What gets in your crawl is it just the randomness or is it something else? Um, well, I think it's just the swingy nature of the game in general and that compounds it So in in any given miniature war game there are outcomes that determine the larger outcome of the game winning or losing and An interesting metric to discuss is like how many outcomes determines a win Is it five is a 10 is a 20? And different games will have different amounts And my preference for a game is for it to be 20 25 outcomes not talking like I I made this strategic choice to make this one very big moment more likely to occur for me That's not i'm talking about i'm talking about I went for a thing and it was good or it was bad Okay, like after dice rolls Like how many of those moments add up to a win in age of sikmar to me It feels like it's a little bit lower on the spectrum And other games are a little bit higher. It's like a dice roll, right? If I roll one d6 looking for a four up um That might happen it might not happen if I roll 40 dice looking for a four up I'm going to get closer to that average of half and half more often than not So if I amortize my opportunities over more uh more decisions Then the outcome becomes just naturally more balanced even though we're using dice to play the game um And that's an individual experience. I don't need to look at a thousand games to see that on a graph I can feel it in one gameplay experience So aos and the prio role All just feels very the whole game can feel swinging like uh the game comes down to three to five decisions Sorry, three to five outcomes not decisions. I understand man outcomes. Yeah, because you can make a decision But it doesn't manifest into an outcome. I get you right. Yeah, so that I think that's my ultimate issue with with prio It compounds an issue already that already exists in the game in a massive way um Yeah, okay Tom what's your take? I like priority. I always have I bet more like what do you what's your take on what scott just said, but sure, that's fine That that's um, I would say that I don't think that it compounds it that's not been my experience, but I think that I think tom loves dead air No, so like i'm so i'm thinking about you like the thought you said five to six possible outcomes um if we didn't have If we didn't have random priority The outcomes would almost be wholly predictable So that's a great point. Okay, and and maybe the idea of not having prio in the current version of aos Is going to make the game worse and I can definitely concede that point But if we if we're talking about prio in a vacuum like the idea of not knowing who's going to go first In a game where I get to activate my entire army Like that's that's what that question here and you know Let me throw this out to you guys. Sure since aos one to two to three every version of the game has Slowly increased the amount of interactivity That the opponent gets on your turn right even in this current season with heroic actions You get two heroic actions if you go second. It's like, okay We understand that maybe not winning prio Feels like you're losing an advantage So we're going to give you this minor comeback mechanic and then now we have reactions I can move on my opponent's turn by spending a cp to me Seeing these things get slowly rolled out into the game implies that the developers are trying to Push the the envelope toward the opponent to give them more advantage when their Opponent gets to gets to play because it is it is so so valuable. Is that a is that a thought that's worth having? Yeah, no Oh, good. Good. Go ahead. I say I I I learned under the vent school of thought like you always give priority away always Unless you're going to win the game Right that makes sense. Yeah Like and so it's funny to me that the all these incentives structure Can you to compound those? And it's only reinforced that thought Okay, that's fair right. It's like I'm giving it away unless I'm winning and I'm also receiving the benefit Right, right. So now actually like it's created this cute thing where It's only ever the right decision to give it away unless you win the game And that's like to a 99 surety. You're sure you're going to just clean it up this game like you will take You you plan and so like as you build You plan to give it away Right, so unless they force you to take it You've already planned on letting them have that next turn um And so but I think it's a mindset Right, like I think that that And so I don't know that the incentive structures are actually um It's what I would say Yeah, I mean, it's no I I think I mean you're right. It's I don't think Okay, so I gotta I gotta sort of organize my thoughts here Yeah The Dead air Yeah Appreciate it. It's not as long as you we were um They nature of the number of Outcomes that are determinative I think is another one of those things that increases The higher up the sort of skill curve we travel, but that isn't a defensive of the thing Okay, because that doesn't necessarily matter Most of your players don't exist at that point on there So I do agree with you that oftentimes in AOS there is a lower number of outcomes like as as most players experience it Right, there is a lower number of outcomes that are determinative of victory. Okay Um, so I think you I think you are correct there and seized on on on a truth Okay, okay Um, I think if you're talking about extremely competitive players, there's Uh, you know, then it comes down to like lots and lots and lots of decisions Those people are making, you know dozens and dozens of decisions that are determinative of the outcome because they they are so Very skilled, right that they're trying to capitalize on the smallest flaw that they're they're they're making almost no mistakes Their units are almost always in like the most perfect position Right, their casualties are pulled in the most perfect way like like they're not creating They're making a ton of decisions that are making it harder for their opponent to to get to be victorious Every time they move every time they pile in every time they pull a casualty They're making decisions that are their outcome Determinative some have right on this behind them some don't but they will that will influence their opponent's chance of winning the game And in a material way Right and by the way their opponents doing the same I know right and I on I understand that and that I guess like in that that exists in every Literally every miniature wargame and it's almost uncountable like the amount of Things you are trying to do to mitigate risk in a game And I was trying to think less about those small micro decisions and more about like the actual Like I rolled the dice now after all that is said and done And it either happened for me or it didn't like those moments not not the small decisions No, absolutely, but that's what I'm saying. So so let me let me let me restate this real quick Okay At the way the way most of the people who play aos would experience it those micro decisions are irrelevant Okay, because the the big outcomes the dice A silly decision they made of how they moved to you wrong or chose a wrong unit to charge Those are like hugely determinative, right? So for them The big decisions they only that they're making decisions. I'm trying to use your words I think your word is better the the big outcomes those those three to five to six to seven moments Whatever we want to say somewhere in that range, right? Those are determinative of the game Okay, what I'm saying is though like it doesn't matter how they pile in or do those small things It's not going to save them. It is an immaterial decision for them and an immaterial outcome okay However at the higher end what I'm saying is that they don't get any of that big stuff wrong anymore All of the big decisions are automatic. They're always going to move. They're only going to charge the right unit They're only going to make the right trades. They're you know, I'm saying like all of these things aren't outcomes anymore because they're basically just automatic You know, if that follows what I'm saying So instead the micro decisions for them become highly impactful because it's the difference between Me doing a tug of war with like 1980s Conan You know Arnold Schwarzenegger like at that like I there's no like way I can plant my feet Or get myself positioned or hold the rope that's going to let me win that that tug of war. I'm going in the mud Okay You understand understand but like Arnold against Arnold Right like two of them It's going to come down to a bunch of tiny things that determine who goes in the mud those become Material in that moment. Does that make sense the difference there between? What I'm saying I I don't think it necessarily does because in in Arnold's case There is no RNG and it's all skill-based. So the the moments in the game that I'm referring to are it's like I have made this like for instance, uh charging Of a nine inch With uh, so like boards, you know, yeah, sure if I am playing cast lie dynasty And I want to drop in from the the the shifting keep and charge some of the nine I have I have options to allow me to re-roll my nine inch charge Sure And so the odds for me to get a nine inch charge with a re-roll is like something like 60 something percent And it's like I have made the requisite choices to make this outcome better for me There is still a 32 chance that I will it will not work out for me. Um, that that's one of those moments I don't land my charge.  You know is that you feel that It does so let me tell that story again, but from the point of view of what I'm saying of the of the curve Okay, okay, so up the curve. They're either going to a Never use that mechanic Okay, because it's unreliable Right, so they'll never drop Unless they unless they've pushed it to an eight seven five re-rollable through some combination of choices If that's possible, of course, of course, right hence lowering the percentage of failure to near zero, right? Two they will have a backup plan available like they'll drop from nine But then also have a like flying chaff unit that can get in place or a different unit that will auto land the charge And this is just a bonus Okay, so they're not just standing there waiting to die They had like a plan bcd associated to that nine inch charge that makes it so that's not the lynch pin of the plan They weren't even if they fail that charge that unit isn't sacrificed Right, and like they're not going to be they're not going to be chumped charge Is they've set up something else To to soften the failure of that charge Right, so they'll they'll they'll take other steps like that's what i'm saying. They'll Those kinds of big things just don't don't happen They don't like bank the game on a nine inch charge. They would never do that Right, i'm not thinking the game that that's like one of the five outcomes, right? That's sure so not not the whole game relies on that one thing But like, you know, it's one of the pillars Yeah, that's what i'm saying like they'll just avoid that as a pillar They'll steer away from that right because why put that much risk like that's that's higher than their risk tolerance effectively becomes right So this is very cagey Back and forth ballet thing is what ends up happening where you're trying to always pick the sure plays right now At the same time you ask me all drop and pop baby, let's go all roll all the nines like let's do it But that's because that's me and i'm willing to just let my units hang out and be like well If I don't get this i'm in trouble, but who cares right, but that's again That's i'm not trying to play one i'm i'm not that skilled a player and two i love those kind of random things Because vince wants the experience Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly and and so he's going to take that risk because the payoff of him getting it is going to feel way better Than not playing it like that not playing that hand. Yeah, like yeah, I lose it.  Yeah I know just like his his adrenaline spike is way higher. Right. And so he's going to dive into that. Um Yeah, so but his but his risk tolerance. This is why I said it's not just a factor of like preference but also tolerance Right And so like that's you know, they would use the castle. I think the drop To drop in on a back unprotected point Right, like that's going to be the play they use that kind of a thing for or something like that and nothing else Like they're not going to drop it for a charge where they're relying on that unit to deal damage You know, they'll they'll take three end charges or something like that right and so on and so forth So That's you know, that's just that's what I mean when I say the decision the more micro decisions become more material Right because they just avoid making higher risk decisions If that well in in those they can lead to higher Higher stakes outcomes. There we go set a different way those decisions that look like decisions to you Are not decisions to them sure Okay, because they look at that and go no, I would never risk Like that's not like that's not a viable move for how I would play Rather though they would use that ability way Rather than just yolo it But I but I do think you've still hit upon and I want to return to it because it's really important, right You've hit upon a really really important point there Okay Which is that You're absolutely right on the uh Like you're absolutely right on The again most players exist within that space And so most players are experiencing the game where that smaller number of things Is determining the outcome right like you're absolutely right and that is a thing Right like and if that's not the experience you like in a game That's rough Because that means either you have to choose to like no i'm going to make this my life's mission To move up this curve to like this really high level Or i'm or the game is going to be played in a way that honestly isn't very rewarding to me Right, so I like I don't think you're wrong there at all As far as like putting a finger on truth of of that I think you're absolutely correct that aos is a is a game where In fact probably for most players, yeah three to seven decisions decide the outcome of the game I think that's absolutely true And how many games do does an individual have to play theoretically to get to the point where that is not the case Uh, you know, I don't know I've always like I mean obviously There's a whole lot of research on like what it takes to skill up and how and things like that and and I'm sure it varies person to person and based on their innate tactical sense And how much time are they willing to invest watching seasons of war Watching tactics videos and then doing whatever, you know, like They that's why I'm I'm wishy washy on it.  But but I my suspicion it's it's pretty heavy Um, I don't think it's small. I'll say that like I play quite a lot of Of warhammer but quite a lot of age of sigmar and I don't count myself in that group Like I don't I'm I'm not Jordan. I'm not Caleb. I'm not Gareth, you know, I'm not these people You know tom guan like there's like I could list 50 more people I haven't talked about who I were like sort of you know, these People I recognize is like they top 10 every tournament they go to there's some of the best players in the world And I'm not in that group Yeah, but the thing is I've watched Jordan play on seasons of war and he has lost the game to prio He invested in a strategy that had had him winning He lost and he got blasted off the board by scaven rick playing scaven But it like still happened to him. And so I don't I don't I want to say like an example I'd love I'd love to be at a tournament and watch top table play And like almost like ask them why they're doing everything they're doing it would never happen I would never be allowed to do that, but I want to I'm at the point now in my Career where I want to like pick people's brains in the moment Ask these micro choices like see why they're making these things. I just I'm not I am not seeing the matrix entirely I hear what you're saying. It makes perfect sense and you're right about the charging thing with nine inches I totally get what you're saying But like as a game as a whole I'm not I'm not seeing the matrix It doesn't like when I played a song of ice and fire that game was immediately competitively Tactically enjoyable like it was like I didn't need to play the game of bazillion times I had fun immediately, you know, and so it's like I have to play more games than vince to enjoy this game as a spike like Oh, no, like that's that's not worth my time. You know what I mean I I completely get you garret.  You shut your mouth Um, I knew he was going to take an issue with that as soon as I listen in, but I know how good of a player he is Um, what so let me say a thing here, uh come to nash con this year with us Uh, hopefully jordan will be there again. I'm pretty willing to bet that like somebody up at those tables Uh, we'll be willing to let you Uh, actually sit in and watch and ask questions. Let me just say that's a very friendly group These people are much more friendly than you think But like if you can watch a game with like any of the trant and ellie brothers and and like That's that's going to be just a great moment right there. Those are those are there They're like incredibly precise unbelievably skilled players. So, you know, there you go Okay, but but any rate, uh, yeah come to a tournament with us, man. It'll be good. Hang out. It's a fun time We can go in the battle tech room and harass them Uh, also and just to to to clarify something I do not mind losing games like I cut my teeth playing fantasy losing to every player in that store It did not matter. I loved I loved playing that game. It is not it is not about losing or playing a faction That's hard to learn because it's about playing a game that feels like it's undermining the strategy of the game That's that's what it is. Yeah So what I would say just briefly just like you talk about jordan like pitching a game on on priority Yeah Like i'm not saying that this is the case But when you're creating content, right, you're creating an experience by Hey, and like when i'm at a table On round four or five. I'm making decisions based on what's most likely to put me on that podium Like i'm not making decisions based on what's going to do from a viewership standpoint. What's going to be more enjoyable? Right, um, and I know that sounds like a very like weird distinction um, but I think that's right. I mean, I'm sure he doesn't play the same way for for uh, Every bat rep as he does when he's on table five or table one round five when I throw dice with vent The game that i'm throwing dice with is very different than the How I get experience at an event because even the list that i'm taking and stuff like that It's just a difference because of the social contract that's going on I know that i'm doing something different, but this is not what i'm trying to generate this type of experience All right, um, and so I I don't know if that's the case But I would just from my experience in knowing people on those tables uh very Now let me just say this and I'm going to bat now I now they said that I'm going to back it up Okay, like I'm going to back away from my premise to say that There are also moments where I will find myself because of the sequence of things or because of like dice rolls have skewed one way where like it's pushed me so far Outside my planning that I have to bank on the double turn bust Or whatever right like sometimes that is your comeback mechanic right we've talked about you know We've briefly talked about this like sometimes you just have to roll the hard nine or you have to roll That priority or you don't get the game right like you look at it and you go Okay, if I don't do this I can lose a slow game of attrition If I go for it I have a chance to win right and sometimes I like Some that is what often will determine the difference between a five and oh event in a foreign one Is making a making a roll like that Where you just don't have an option and you have to gamble But we're playing a dice game right like so that will occasionally happen in a five five event of like five round event You're probably gonna have to one game is probably gonna be tight and you're probably you might have to gamble Yeah, and so I guess to to continue this conversation. I feel like when gambling The the percent that the gamble Wins me a losing game should be Lower than what it feels like it currently is an aos like if gambling is winning prio That's not good enough. It needs to be 15 percent chance that this is gonna work out And if it doesn't like I lose like if you're losing you should lose Like period like you should it is but it is dice game So I just want to push that percentage more We don't really mean if you lose you should lose period what you mean is like Barring a catch-up mechanic that has the chance to come back whatever low chance that represents right like because we talked about that So I I didn't I didn't want you to get yourself in trouble there because I know sure. Yeah, right, right? Yeah, but yes percent than a than a prio roll and maybe you're not saying that maybe maybe you're seeing more than that As casually competitive has pointed out in the chat. I've had a go try God's not kill it like that happened Mathematically that should not happen. It definitely happened Right, and so so sometimes like that happens and you just have to punt right? You have to figure out a way to make it make the game work Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so like My so my point to all this is I think there's something worth very much exploring there because I like One of the things I really value about aos just to return to this and we should we should bring this, you know sort of To a close here. We've had this is a good discussion Um, I know it's late. Um, you know, one of the things I really value is I do think there's an incredibly high Skill ceiling like there's so much to practice to learn this game is so varied each experience can be extremely different and challenging in like a million different ways, right? and um And I value that a lot, but I think at the same time we We have to also understand the downside of what that means when the skill floor Becomes very high Right or when certain things can become very outside has this sort of outsized impact And I think it is the nature of aos that it is a very Swingy game that can often especially as most people experience it rely on a smaller number of decisions And some things like the priority role especially for for the vast majority of players Will be highly impactful and it's you know to sit there and go well I don't have that problem.  I'm glad that's cool Like I'm glad you've you've You know unlocked those those types of things, right? But there's a lot of people who are playing who don't or who might not continue to play because they don't like that experience And sometimes maybe that's good. Maybe that's just not the game for them That's okay. Again, like we said at the beginning certain games can be for different people And those tolerances are going to be different and I like having a wide variety of experiences But I think we have to admit that it's the reality of this game that those things are true and That that means there's going to be some group of people That just this isn't for and that experience isn't rewarding to and there's like you mentioned Uh, you know a song of ice and fire how it just kind of like it clicked into place Right like the the it and and that didn't mean you won every game to return back to your point That was the whole that's not what's being said just to be super I'm still losing. My faction is terrible, but I'm still losing constantly But I love it. But it had to do with like you feeling like you understood the decision space Right and the decisions were in the right level of tolerance of randomness to you You know the things like that right those things hit the right Mark whatever those are on the spectrum for you to be like, yes This is the puzzle piece that clicks into place for me Right and there's nothing like innately wrong with that Uh It's just it's just like that ultimately like is going to come down to Your psychological utility and how it intersects with the the game mechanics, right? but we but but we We can also be aware of that and hope that you can sometimes design around that like you can Speak to that in some ways and minimize its impact and stuff like that Which I think is ultimately what a lot of those like go second get a bonus Mechanics are trying to do right so yeah, yeah, right on trying to do but maybe according to tom Only exacerbate the problem. It's sure sure. I guess it depends on where you're living. Yeah, exactly All right, well good. All right, man. I'm gonna give you the last word scott. What else you got anything else you want to say? Thank you to the chat for being so awesome and and uh, you know like It's very easy to have someone come in and criticize something you're passionate about and respond with hostility, you know and You know sometimes in this whole episode of me criticizing the game It felt like that but at no point in this experience either with the chat or with you two guys You're both lovely hosts as it felt like that. So thank you for making me feel welcome. Thank you for making me feel like my My critiques are heard. It's really valuable. You know, it's not easy to do Yeah, yeah, that's it 100% man. I'm I'm very glad and like I said, I knew the show was going to be from the moment I said I wanted to have you all I wanted to have you all because I just wanted to have another excuse to To to just like rail and all these things that you said that I was like, yeah, gosh darn it. These things aren't wrong Let's get these fixed I get to bitch about tactics more. Yeah, exactly Yes, absolutely Obviously, I'm sure everyone knows miniac his channel will be linked down below If you're not, I mean, what's the matter with you? And of course, we've also got a shout out trapped under plastic Uh, the my one of my most favorite every other monday experiences always look forward to a good trapped under plastic episode scott and john are both Truly wonderful fantastic human beings that I am honored and blessed to call friends I I'm a much better human for having a friendship with both of you So I want to thank you for coming on. This is like it's not an easy thing when you make a video that there's plenty of spicy people Who wanted to come at you real hard to then come on like the aos show Like oh yay, that'll be fun Um, so thank you for doing it and it's been an absolute pleasure and a lot of fun So thank you all for watching. Hey, if you haven't hit like yet, guess what you can do? You just hit that button It's so easy. It's fun. Click buttons. Just click all those down there Subscribe if you haven't already for more fun content next week Will be the obr show We will be reviewing a siarq bone reapers first and then we'll be doing soul blight the week after that Yes, tom, you'll get soul blight suck it tyler Obviously, it was the correct alignment to give tyler obr I mean think about tyler's personality and tell me he's not just like He would be part of catechrose's legions for sure. Um, I mean you'd have the scroll just like taking off the yeah Yes, uh, thank you carcid. I will make a note for myself on the skill versus random To link that down below. I appreciate that. So thank you very much everybody. We certainly appreciate it If you want to support the channel, there's lots of ways you can do so Uh, of course, you can share this with your friends And all that kind of thing, but you can also join the patreon that's focused on your hobby and taking your next step On your own personal hobby journey. Um, maybe you want to be a so-so pro painter Well, that could be a way to take that step. Uh, I look forward to the new copyright I look forward to the new bright rolling out. Uh, but uh, but as always, thank you scott. Thank you tom Thank you audience as always We'll see you next wednesday As I struggle with the mouse. Bye everybody