Thank you. I'm very glad to be here. I'm from the city of Leipzig. I work in a club called Elipa Manoke and I've been dealing with awareness for a number of years and I have been sent here from an initiative called Clubs are Culture. That is an alliance of various clubs that want to strive for clubs being recognized as a culture and most people might wonder why actually and that is what I would like to explain. We as clubs find ourselves in a position of having an educating role and we want to support newcomers. We have an artistic approach or intentions and we want to strive for tolerance integration things that in the normal world and the regular world are not given sadly. We are going to talk about awareness today and that is a topic that is very abstract which is why I'm going to give you a bit of theory and a lot of examples for each item so let's start with the standard definition to be aware as English means something like to be conscious and it's about creating a protected or safe space. It's a verbal work so it's not the same as security work. Security is a physical kind of work but awareness is about clarification about talking about giving information about helping in problematic situations. We have three main areas that I'm going to talk about when it comes to awareness there are many more. Let's have the next slide please. I'm going to stick to three areas because otherwise it's going to be too broad first one sexism in legislation we have the presumption of innocence which means that if there is rape or other severe intrusions then normally the presumption of innocence means that the wrong person is believed we would like to turn this around we would like to create a safe space often they will not be witnesses we don't want to be judges anyway we want to create safety and we want to make sure that information we receive is the truth so we are trying to recognize the definition of the power of defining the I'm going to talk about that more later and the other question is the other issue is racism questions like oh your German is so good and the question but where do you actually come from and people would ask me where does my co-worker come from and I would respond from the city of Halle and the question would then continue well I would say from France depends on France so white people don't often experience this but people of color experience it every day so the awareness approach is something that we we used to make to explain to people why this is a burden and we would like we don't want that it helps it prevents people from being recognized and fully accepted and positive racism of course I'm not going to talk about that that much is another issue here and often we accept people in clubs that would normally have problems of being accepted into spaces we're talking about people of color that being are being excluded through to the color of skin that are giving us skeptical grounds and we would like to change that the next large issue is queer animosity or queerphobia not just about homosexuality it's also the question why are you visiting this toilet and not the other toilet how do you define yourself I don't excite except as you define yourself as trans I refuse to accept that you are that you want to be dressed in that way and especially in clubs we have this huge issue of free spaces where people can out themselves and we're very happy that people feel able to do that and we want to create the freedom that people maybe grew up in a small city can see oh this is amazing there are people here that maybe openly gay openly lesbian and nothing is done nothing no harm happens to them maybe I can out myself here as well and maybe this could be the space where a man dares to put on the dress or woman dares to put on a moustache so creating a space where these things are allowed the power of definition is the concept that we work with and that means that a person that has something happening to them is able to define well how this felt for them what does what that means for them we don't have the right to tell them oh it's not that bad or this is super bad the people that are affected have the power to define this and this is also about power because these people can decide what the consequences are this could be a clarification in a talk the call for an apology or an expulsion and there is this one exemption and that is the house rules the legal rights of someone who runs the place if a person does not want someone to be expelled but that person that has but but the person who this is about has broken house rules then it can be the landlord that can decide to expel them anyway so how do we deal with the perspective of the people affected this is very important I'm going to come to this in the examples too how can we from the outside assess whether this is a bad situation or not awareness starts at a very early point which you will see in the examples these are very everyday situations that keep happening so it's not that we get involved in a rape situation or sexual abuse or a very bad remark and we start earlier I've given you a few examples to you a small trigger warning here these are uncomfortable situations people that are affected by sexism might want to consider if this is the right point to stop but there are unpleasant examples so we have someone grabbing someone you know how it works there is a queue at the Lou and someone is pushing through many people are wearing a bag and on their stomach and that might perhaps touch someone's bottom and the person would say the person would say I've been grabbed at the bottom and the other person might say oh this is just my bag that I was wearing is this just an excuse and this is where enormous society we would use the presumption of innocence in normal society the solution would be to talk to the person that is supposed to have transgressed and that person would say I'm sorry it was just the bag I was wearing I'm I'm going to be more careful in the future or the person might say oh what does that person actually what's their problem and that second person would then not fit into our safe space concept and important point here it's not just about expulsion it is about whether someone fits into the safe space concept and expulsion is the last resort the next item these are things that we all know we have all experienced this it could be in a public space people two people scream yell at each other someone keeps trying to hug someone of a female and that female is pushing them away but that doesn't stop the behavior so you would now try to drag the person the transgressing person away but we are have this other perspective we would go to the person affected and affected and ask them how are you is everything okay do you know this person and sometimes the response might be please help but it could also be oh this is my little brother and he's just getting on my nerves he's just completely drunk and I want to get him home I would like to continue being going out I'll just get him some water so that you get better so that is the perspective of the person affected it's not for us from the outside to decide even if the situation seems drastic it's not for us to decide we know this from the street someone might get into a fight some you might just not know how to behave the next situation is okay there are some issues here with the slides we have two people that when we've noticed that one says hey you you whore you bitch and we could ask around in their friends and we might find that this is normal in this kind of social context people have the right to act to behave to each other any way they want but in a public space we would tell them oh come on you are using certain words here that are discriminating and others might hear them and we want everyone to have fun so maybe these kind of jokes is something you'd better leave aside here and take to your home and leave them at home and the last situation that I that is very common in clubs the people that stares the person that stares someone extremely stares at someone's t-shirts that t-shirts might have an inscription and the person might think oh I want to read this he maybe is a bit beyond it pasted already and and normally you would tell the person affected if you have a problem with people staring you don't go to the club that's not the way we want to do it we are going to ask the person hey what happened here why do you stare at this person did you actually notice that you stare at them and then depends on the response if the person is unable to respond then maybe it is time to send them home if they don't realize how they are simply a nuisance to other people but if they say oh I was dreaming sorry I wasn't quite with it I'm very sorry then maybe the point would be you're still welcome here because that is the concept of awareness we don't expect two people to be perfect we don't want to be at the police we just want to be able to approach people that behave badly and tell them that that is what they are doing so we have okay we're switching slides yes sorry we have a few technical issues here I hope you can forgive us that so aftercare so people about things happen in clubs very bad things can happen so there might be video recordings that were made on toilets in a festival that was a story and clubs are not protected from that either however large security concept might be things happen someone might have overdosed someone might want to get someone home and abuse the situation so many things that we have to deal with and the point might be reached where we have to do some aftercare so we need to be able to contact people we maybe don't ask these people to use Instagram or other official channels not the official email address there might be a very discriminating experience in normal circumstances I don't want to talk to the office then but I want to have someone that I can save feel safe that I feel safe talking to you so there should be a number or a contact that specifically leads to the awareness group so that you might offer the person I'm going to call you a taxi I might even even if the perpetrator has left I might even offer them a free ticket for the next event because I want to show you that we found you it was courageous of you to come here and to be open and you are very welcome here and part of that might be that I call them a taxi depending on the size of the city it might be a women's taxi there are emergency numbers that are required in extreme cases maybe if a rape has occurred it is very very important to get them to the emergency treatment get them diagnosed and examined also if there is drug abuse certain drugs have to be extracted from them but they leave the body quickly so that you need testing so it's very important to have the emergency numbers available where no way I can send that person where they are safe and be sure that an aftercare is possible this also answers very since but I have to repeat again that's not how it is there are some bad cases but normally earlier you you'd be laughed at but these days it should be the case that people are taken seriously and that they're given good care when someone asks for help what I find very positive is that criminal reports are being made which used to be a very difficult struggle because it's very hard to accept that you are have been the victim of a crime that is a very bad thing to feel like and if a report is being made often the first question that police ask what were you wearing and that is not nice even if I'm in the nude there is that isn't a reason for someone to grab me and that is important to us so there are items where awareness stops these are physical altercations that to get involved there is not something that an awareness crew can do and that is not the objective of awareness it's about clarification enlightenment and help so that is where it stops the physical conflict and there's always the question who is affected if I am a self-affected if I have become the victim of a bad remark or a physical transcription or whether I just see something for example the dance for example maybe just siblings having some beef that doesn't give me the rights to expel them maybe I'm not directly affected even if I'm triggered maybe and triggered situations very often occur for example there is my ex-boyfriend maybe I don't like them they're not something I feel comfortable with someone reminds me of that person um so um I as an awareness person might feel unwell in that context but that's not that other person's fault so that is an issue where awareness should be suspended and where you might have to tell someone maybe you should just do some introspection and find out why you are being triggered in this way if that person would perhaps dance at others in a provocative way if there's a negative influence maybe you have to first find out what is happening within yourself another thing that happens a lot in clubs or in your friendship people are in a relationship and are in the process of separating and are entering into fights a lot they don't want to see each other anymore both go to the club and say I don't want the other person to be here so they would give you a huge talk of what is wrong what they've done in the relationship we thought about how to deal with this for a long time and the solution is both have to go and maybe find out who would go to the club when it's not the club's responsibility to be the peace army in a relationship and we're not going to play psychologists here that's where it stops another thing that I talked about is the house rules or the right of the landlord fortunately you don't have to resort to that very often only in very severe situations if it's not just about some bad remarks but actually physical transgressions and I would then go to someone and say this was a very bad remark and if I have here as a response that foreigners have no place in this country maybe then it is the time to use the right of the landlord and expel them and what's important is to always say that whatever we do we have to make it clear to the affected person it is cool that you are dealing with the situation it's you are courageous for approaching me thanks for doing that my problem is I've talked to the person and now it's me who doesn't feel well comfortable anymore that is what you call the taking on the blame people don't often want to have people expelled they prefer some clarification some some understanding but if I if if someone says oh your German is so good maybe that is meant in the best with the best intention maybe it's just uh that just needs some kind of clarification so if that's what the person affected says but it's our decision to expel them anyway then we have to take the responsibility for that so we are taking the blame so that the person does not feel guilty about what they have started and now these are some very theoretical issues some practical issues this all sounds very nice people are going to party and talk to people how does it all work in practice so how should a crew look like there should be gender diverse this is very important because depending on the actual situation we need various kinds of contact people to talk to especially male perpetrators don't take female crew members seriously but male people that are affected may want to talk to a man on the other way around so we will see that the crew is has a diverse and maybe includes a queer person as well so that we can definitely not just have men and women in the conventional sense and it's always important to work as a couple so that one person will talk to the person affected and the other person to the other person to the perpetrator perhaps and that's not easy to do if you're on your own you have a lot of distance to cover in the club you may have to pursue someone because you don't know where they're going so you have to be on your toes and don't be alone also for psychological reasons it's important to have someone to talk to within the crew and also to be friendly it's important that's a very important difference to the security security has to exude dominance they have to be fit physically to be able to defend themselves and take someone outside the awareness crew as the contrary approach the important thing with the awareness crew is that they are friendly that they're on the same level as the guests and not talking to them from from from a certain height as it were so that these people realised that they are being taken seriously and and recognised as a guest and be included and clothing is important here if I am at a Gothic festival and where don't wear the same kind of clothing then people might hesitate to talk to me because they don't regard me as a member of the group they might think that someone alien or from a stranger would come to them and same goes for other festivals on if if I go to a hippie festival I can wear the appropriate clothing or if I am at a punk festival I should always select the clothing that fits the the event and also I should meet them on the same level no hierarchy and also education is important should not be underestimated we have 50% medically trained people and 50% socially trained people and the other half perhaps are people that are interested in awareness and just in training regarding racism sexism queerphobia things like that these are very deep issues I was able to talk about them very briefly and then there is a very important first aid course that everyone has to to especially if it's about panic attacks overdose you have to be able to administer first aid so people are sent to various courses there's a lot of very important what the rules of the clubs is and how do you deal with someone who may be have overdosed what are the facilities in the club what is the point at which you should call an ambulance especially in clubbing this talk is very much focused on that this is not what perhaps what you would have at a concert but even with a concert it's very important to have workshops on alcohol perhaps and do I recognize some what's up with someone has some just had too much to drink or whether other drugs are involved and are they close to a coma and after all this training you have to perhaps you have to talk to each other in the in the awareness team what your triggers are I might be affected by sexism but also by racism so what triggers me what really causes me a problem which cases should you take over can you talk to the perpetrators one thing is to be able to help but also to talk to the perpetrators and again talk about this make arrangements and also this is important for a door crew find a safe word very important say there are no peanuts left in in the bar due to say to the other person and so that means that one person can go away do you want to check whether we have peanuts and maybe that is a way of getting the one of awareness to remember out of a difficult situation if you have that it works pretty well I have to speed up here not anymore not even more please as the interpreter so I have created a few example we have the emergency button this started at a certain punk location would you believe that and there is the emergency button and you might think that these buttons are being abused but if that gets the security out there every time people realize that it's not much fun also employees can use a button to make it known that people can talk to them about missing blue paper but also about conflicts and the last resort of course is switch on the light switch off the music there is not that is a thing in pubs as well with it there where there's not that much security and in every bar in every wardrobe there's a button that you can press to alert security and they didn't know where they have to go to okay I think that's it for me so how do we continue that would be something but kind of a relaxed talk we can't get onto that but we'll come to the Q&A now thank you for this important talk um I have to say that sadly there is not really much in terms of questions oh that's not affordable I can continue it would be nice if you might give us a few more examples yeah what else I want to talk about is a special thing we have a council and we are a park rather and we have trainings for people who then patrol the parks at night and those are just things that are beginning and you can see at my presentation I'm not as good not very good at making things pretty but yeah awareness work is a very emotional emotional work our crews are quite diverse and there are a lot of queer people and gay people because most people who want to do awareness are affected themselves but that also means that most people won't do it for longer than five years because yeah it can be heavy work especially if it's repeating cases where you think you should know better why do we have to start this topic again yeah it's a it's a long way ahead of us okay thank you very much another question so what could could be done for people with disablements like people with autism for example and this interpreter has signed issues I think there's a lag between all right it's a very good question they are beginning so there are parties without barriers especially with festivals and they check how can we include wheelchairs and so on the plan in our club is have parties without stroboscopic lights and invite people in wheelchairs and deaf people and autism is so diverse I think people have to test themselves test for themselves what they can do and people know themselves what they need and maybe they can just ask do you have strobe lights or do you maybe have headphones or ear protection so it's not too loud for me where could I go if it all gets too much do you have a quiet room so communication is critical in these cases so you just ask well this is what I need to be able to come to you can you provide that for me or not okay thank you very very much


If you could see the Holy Spirit praying for you, you would see him face down on the floor, tears streaming down his face, his voice would shake the room. I dare say he would be pounding his fist to the floor, pleading for you as he prays. With groanings that means a deep, urgent groan, something that comes from deep within his heart. You've ever heard a mother pray for her child? If you've ever heard a father pray for his child, you have a little taste of what it's like when the Holy Spirit prays for you. He prays and he pleads fervently for you. The one who knows you like no one else can know you. Praise for you like no one else can pray for you.


Hey everyone, welcome back to the show floor at Mandalay Bay, it's Dell Technologies World 2023. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante. This is our second day of coverage, but you know because you've been watching since last night with our QBAP for dark. We've had great conversation so far. You probably saw in the last hour Michael Dell was here, we've got great guests. What if our alumni is back with us? We're going to be talking about trends in networking, how the impact of generative AI and AI is on networking. Please welcome Hassan Seraj, head of software products and ecosystem at Broadcom. Drew Shulke is back with us, one of our alumni. VP Product Management at Dell. Guys, it's great to have you on the Cube. Thank you for joining Dave and me. Thanks Lisa, thanks Dave. Great to be here. Let's start by just kind of describing your roles. Hassan, we'll start with you and then Drew will get you. So the audience really kind of gets that context. Absolutely. My name is Hassan Seraj, I lead product management for our software portfolio in our networking division at Broadcom. This is the division where we build Merchant Silicon, which is leveraged by some of the largest clouds. Also, some of our ODM and OEM partners and eventually consumed by enterprises, service providers and mid-market accounts. Excellent, Drew, give us your light out. So Drew Shulke, vice president of product management or infrastructure solutions group. Within that, my focus is on two areas, primary storage and then connectivity, which is that's the remit that I'm here today to talk about and excited to talk about all the developments that we have going on in networking. You build 5G radio frequency components? Is that you? No, no. Too bad, we talked earlier about the big deal with Apple and Broadcom. We did, we did. Okay, so what is the state of networking, Hassan? And then Drew, you can maybe from your OEM's perspective, but let's start at the Silicon. I mean, just a little bit of history on networking. You know, networking started off by, you know, with very vertically integrated systems that were built, right? A lot of companies who offered solutions which was based on proprietary hardware, proprietary Silicon and proprietary software. But a lot of it started with the hyperscalers where they talked about that look, we are frustrated with the fact that we have to deal with all of this. They called networking the SUV of the data center with the amount of power. Networking was consuming thousands of watts of power. It was hindering the workload placement. Networking is just 10 to 15% of the spend in a data center, but it can get in the way of the most vital optimizations. So the goal was to move networking to a model along the same lines as compute, which is you buy an X86 from an AMD on Intel. This is the way you buy motion silicon. You have open hardware, you have open source software and open APIs. And what has happened over the last, I'd say five, seven years is networking is moving from this vertically integrated closed systems to open networking. And whatever the hyperscalers started, they have now have this at mass scale, but now broader enterprises, service providers, and even mid-market accounts are starting to enjoy the benefits of all this. And you're talking about really the silicon layer of the stack, correct? Correct. And so, and the hyperscalers really looked to merchant silicon providers like you to do this, and it sort of forced those standards, is that correct? That is correct. Okay. So basically when they are taking the silicon from us, that's what we are providing, but at the end of the day, the systems are built with our partners like Dell, who will also sometimes are going to be putting the software stack and orchestration on top and selling it to the end customers. So the hyperscalers may leverage what we call ODMs, their own manufacturers, but this same technology, Dell is now taking, they will sell it to hyperscalers, but then they will also take it to the broader market. So, Joe, okay, so now go up the stack. You're consuming this for your customers. There's also, I've heard a number of people talk about that it's not just about the CPU anymore, it's about the surrounding components, the connect centricity. So that's really kind of fundamentally what we're talking about here, but what does this mean for you as an OEM and ultimately your customers? Yeah, I look at what's going on in this portion of networking, it's very analogous to other things that have come out of the hyperscale community, because the hyperscalers have to solve problems at massive scale, and when you think about networking in particular, getting networks to run efficiently and performately at massive scale is a very, very hard problem to solve, but if you solve it, boy, there's a lot of people that are really interested into it. You got a stack that's very, very hard and you know it can run at scale, and this is just another dynamic that has happened here where in the one particular case of Microsoft where they made heavy investments in their network, turning it into an open source project called Sonic, which is a very hardened stack that while designed for an hyperscaler has a number of attributes that are starting to become very, very relevant for large enterprises as well as maybe service providers that are smaller. Like what are those salient points? Well, a big thing would be this whole idea of multi-tenancy and the ability to have, even enterprises are considered basically service providers today, if you think about it, a large bank having to serve thousands of internal customers, thousands of apps, having a network that can have that level of segmentation and granularity and do it and manage and be easily managed is incredibly attractive. I remember in 2011, right after the first re-invent, I wrote a post that not only did the IT vendor community need to compete with Amazon, but the customer as well, the buyers have to become service providers exactly the point that you just made. Absolutely. It took a while to get that sort of scale and operating model, but we're finally here, I think. Talk a little bit from both of your perspectives about the nature of the partnership. Here we are in the Brocade, a broad company, the booth here at Dell Technologies World. We've been hearing a lot about, we always hear a lot about the partner ecosystem and how strong it is, but Hassan, give us your perspectives on Dell and the partnership and the impact to customers that it's delivering. And then we'll get- Absolutely. I think, I would say this partnership is full-stack partnership. As I said, one of the things that we wanted to do was, we wanted to simplify systems, networking systems. If you go back five years ago, people were buying these big chassis, large systems, and what we have done is over the last five to 10 years, double the performance and density in silicon every two years. So then now we have a 51.2 terabit chip that we call Tomahawk 5, in which you can get 512 ports of 100 gig in a few hundred millimeter square, right? So, huge density, huge performance, but also very low power. Now 100 gig is less than one watts of power. 10 years ago, this used to be 10 watts of power. So, what this has resulted for end customers is now they can get systems, which were four, five, six RUs, packed into one RU. Very simple systems, and that is something that we are partnering with Dell, right? They have a complete portfolio of those systems, and then this also makes software very easy to write for these systems, because a lot of complexity comes from software. When you have multiple chips, you know, you're trying to make them interoperate, and that's where the complexity comes in, and you know, what Drew mentioned about Sonic, an open source software, how do you take something and contribute to it so that it's consumable by the broader enterprise? Those are the two ideas that we have partnered on. One of the sort of narratives during the cloud, you know, ascendancy was network traffic's moving from North-South to East-West. The whole industry, you know, responded to that. What's the state of that trend with respect to AI? Will it change again? Is it now North-South and East-West? What's, how should we think about that? Yeah, it's interesting, like, as this AI phenomena has really started to take it up, and we were actually talking about a deal with an AI provider right before the show here came on, and it's really interesting that East-West dynamic is certainly very, very present in AI, especially if you're a large AI provider. And so there's a ton of parallels to what's already been going on in that service provider space to what these AI networks need. So maybe just serendipitous that this is all coming together here, but certainly beyond kind of that internal service provider use case for large enterprise, we see tremendous upside in terms of AI providers and the kind of networks that we're collectively working to provide to our customers. One of the things Michael Dell said yesterday at his keynote was that for businesses that are not using AI today, you're already behind. When customers come to you to solve challenges with respect to the impact of generative AI and AI on networking, what are some of those challenges and how does Dell and Broadcom together help customers eliminate those challenges so that they can really not just dabble in AI but really use it as a business driver or driver of their economy? So I would say in this case, we have come a full circle. If you look at AI networking, it's different in the sense the AI workloads, there are very few flows but they're very large flows and they all start at the same time and they can run for weeks or months. So there are very specific requirements on how to handle all of this. You need to have perfect load balancing, you need to have very good congestion control, you have to have failover mechanisms and you need to be able to manage very large clusters. Before it was all about compute, now these networks are about GPUs and CPUs. That's how they are. And some of these hyperscalers are building networks which are 32,000 cluster wide. So you need to be able to scale as well and that is what they're coming to us and asking, one thing they're saying is networking is once again getting in the way because 50% of the time Meta are just as the summit and they talked about that 50% of the time the workloads are spending in networking. So we are trying to make sure that we solve all of these problems around congestion control, failover so that we can improve these job completion times for these AI workloads. And one other thing I'll add is everybody is now on the same page in terms of look, they don't want vertically integrated systems here as well. They want an open ecosystem so that it can innovate and they want solutions which are based on Ethernet than anything else and that's something that we are working very closely with Drew and the team on and like he talked about, there are deals that are starting to happen not only in hyperscalers but other enterprise accounts as well. I see tremendous promise for AI from an operational aspect and for those of us living in IT is when something breaks or something goes wrong, it's like everybody attempts to prove themselves innocent and find the guilty party, right? It's just a reality of kind of the world but like the ability for us to take AI and ML and have that as a back end on all the observability engines that we have in terms of what's going on into the environment so that that sort of root cause and attribution of where the problem is can become a real-time activity. This is something we're doing across all of Dell at an ISG level and certainly plan on extending it into the networking space. Can we unpack the sort of characteristics of that workload that you just talked about, Hassan? So you said very few flows. So what are we talking about here? Just streams of high bandwidth data going across this internal network, right? And you said really important to have load balancing, congestion control and failover mechanism. So what does that mean? That you've got to have like lots of paths. In case one fails, you've got to be able to reconnect on another one and these have to be big pipes. Can you describe that in a little bit more detail? And then I'm interested in the up level stack and what that means for how you architect the system beyond just the silicon. No, absolutely. First of all, bandwidth is important, right? And this is why this, I talked about our 51.2 terabit chip but the other thing is you need to have what we call perfect load balancing. You need to have multiple paths and you need to be able to spray packets evenly across because if you have few flows and all of them are just going on a couple of paths and the other paths are empty, you're going to have congestion on that path. So I think that is why load balancing is extremely important. The other thing is you cannot have flows waiting in the pipeline. So you need to have mechanisms where receiver can signal to the sender that I can take your entire flow, right? And that's where some of the congestion management mechanisms come into play. And like I said, like when the failover happens, it has to happen very, very quickly, right? And you need to be able to switch paths very quickly otherwise the job completion time suffers. And all of this has to happen at scale, right? Of course some enterprises are probably building clusters which are 1000 GPUs, but there is need with LLMs, large language models. You need cluster sizes which are 32,000 GPUs. So you need to be able to scale as well. And Drew, your swim lane is the Dell's networking portfolio products. And how does that bleed into or does it bleed into sort of the stuff we heard this morning about AI servers, are they cousins? Are they, you know? Great question. Yeah, so we have a complete hardware portfolio and back to the bandwidth comment of it. I mean, we really need to give, you know, Broadcom credit here at the pace at which they've been allowing the entire industry to increase in bandwidth. If I think about just what we've done in the past five years and we're now having conversations around 800 gig switches and things like this, it's really phenomenal in terms of what they've done with Silicon. But we want to have a comprehensive portfolio of switch options to meet the customer where they need to be from that bandwidth perspective. And then we've got a, you know, the network operating system that's going to run on that switches, which we've talked about, you know, bringing from the open source community, hardening it, we want to support it. And then we want to add value on top of that in terms of automation features, telemetry features, insight and observability features. You know, that's, as we've democratized the network, that's where a lot of the value add is moving at this point in time. You know, like, I don't want to say they take us for granted, but they do take for granted the switch is going to work. That the NOS is going to pass the packet to the right place, that we've designed the network with those multiple paths that you talked about it. And at that point in time, it's like, okay, how am I optimizing this over time and making sure that it's up and running? That's where we're kind of focused from a software perspective and adding that value. And where are the flows going? Am I generally now back sort of inside my own data center? Am I connecting out to the clouds? What is the sort of normal state? It's primarily within the four walls of the data center and sort of the heavy work in terms of computing what the recommendation is. And the output is a relatively small component of that. So a lot more east-west pipes than there are north-south pipes in these kind of models. And I think absolutely. The other thing I would say is, you know, one of the things like based on the feedback that we get from Dell is we have very rich telemetry that we have embedded in our silicon as well. Because it's when you have this kind of scale and your failover is extremely important, right? Detecting failovers and fixing failovers. It's very important to have very rich telemetry. And that is something that we are haver and silicon. And we also want to make sure that we are exposing it. We are sending this data out, but we also send out data that matters. So it's very filtered data. So that the top level applications, right? When they are getting this data, they are able to give meaningful insights very, very quickly, right, to the end customer, right? Take us out here, Drew. And maybe a comment from Hisana as well. What does the future look like? You talked about some of the value add that's coming for customers, but give us a sneak peek into your crystal ball of Dell and Broadcom. And when can customers expect what those value adds you talked about? Oh, I mean, because there's software, expect us to deliver something just about every single quarter, right? I mean, we've gone through an evolution and we're very proud of our hardware products, but most of our development resources are sitting at the software layer right now. So expect to see us make slow and steady and constant progress working with Broadcom by every quarter by pushing this out. Excellent. We'll be keeping our eyes on that. You just got to figure out how to charge for that, right? Because you guys... We've got that figured out. We've got that figured out, Dave. Don't worry. We will keep our eyes on Dell and Broadcom. Guys, thank you so much for joining us on the program today. It was a pleasure having you talk about the trends in networking, the impact of generative AI and the depth of the partnership and the value you're going to deliver to customers. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much. We want to thank you for watching. Stick around. The co-COO Chuck Whitten joins Dave and me. He's going to break down his keynote from yesterday. We're going to really unpack multi-cloud by design. We're going to really talk with Chuck about what makes Dell unique for this moment in tech. Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante, be right back.


and sign is problematic. Okay, we will do that again. Okay, just remind me before we discuss today. Okay. All right, so welcome back everybody to the second lecture on 213 BC 213 the end times of ages or times and end of age or time are the two different expressions in reference to scatology. So the answer to your question is yes. Right. So what we tried to point out a little earlier is that there are different terminologies or terms like the last day, the last days, the day of the Lord, the end of the age or end of the ages, you know, and all of these different terms are used throughout scripture, both Old and New Testament in speaking about the last days or the body scatology or the end of time. So all of these terms are used different different terms. Also we just have to get familiar with it and then we have to learn how to interpret it. The point I was trying to get across earlier was depending on the context we should, I mean, the usage, the passage where you're reading it, we should, from there we should interpret as to this is what the writer is talking about. Right. So once we have a good understanding of the timeline of the sequence of events, then when we read the scriptures, we will be able to interpret. Okay. This is what he's referring to. But the answer to your question is yes. There are different terms like this, referring to the end times. Is that okay? So let's go back to reading Matthew 24. We were in Matthew 24 and verse 15. Now just for us to get become familiar with some of Daniel's prophecies. Now next year, in our third year, we're going to study Daniel's prophecies in detail. We're going to read every verse and study it. But just for us to become familiar with Daniel's prophecies so that we understand what Daniel chapter 9 verse 15 is talking about. Keep your hand in. Sorry, what Matthew 24 15 is talking about. Keep your hand in Matthew 24. Let's just go back to Daniel chapter 9. And could somebody read Daniel chapter 9 verses 23 to 27 for us please. Daniel chapter 9 23 to 27. They're going to come back to Matthew 24 15. But let's read Matthew Daniel 9 23 to 27. Somebody could read this whole passage for us please. Daniel chapter 9 verse 23 to 27.  Therefore, consider the matter and understand the vision. Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. Okay, let's pause there. I just want to make some comments. Okay, so this is Gabriel, Angel Gabriel, speaking to Daniel. And he's telling in verse 24, 70 weeks. We will understand when we study this in detail, each week represents a seven year period. And we can prove that from scripture. And as we saw it was also fulfilled that way. So he's saying Daniel saying Daniel Gabriel is telling Daniel Daniel. I've come to talk to you about 70 weeks, really a period of 490 years. And this has to do with it. If you look at verse 24 very carefully, your people and your holy city. That means this 70 weeks of 490 year period has to do with your people, the Jewish people, and your holy city. That means the city of Jerusalem. Okay, so this passage is very specific about the Jewish people and the city of Jerusalem. But what Angel Gabriel says, very interesting in verse 24, this 490 years covers this entire period of to finish transgression, to make an end of sins and to make reconciliation for iniquity. That's talking about the work of Jesus Christ. He is the one who came and made reconciliation for iniquity. And we will see it as we progress in this passage. We will read for us as we progress. He talks about the Messiah. So to make reconciliation for iniquity, that's Jesus Christ. And he says, from there he jumps to the end of time. What is the end of time? To bring in everlasting righteousness. When is everlasting righteousness going to come? It's at the end of time. To bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and process. That means to complete or fulfill all prophecy. And to anoint the most holy place. So the most holy place is talking about the temple. So it's translated here as to anoint the most holy, which could be interpreted as to anoint Jesus as king. But the actual full translation there, and you might see it in the passage in your cross reference. It's actually talking about the anoint the most holy place. Talking about the temple. So Gabriel is telling Daniel, I've come to talk to you about 490 years, 70 weeks. This has to do with your Jewish people and with Jerusalem. And this period is going to cover the time when there's going to be reconciliation for sin. And it's going to extend all the way till everlasting righteousness is going to be assured in. And all proxy is going to be fulfilled. And the most holy place is going to be anointed or put in place. So he's covering this entire period. Okay, it's very, very interesting. Let's go on, please. Verse 25. Sherpist. No, therefore, and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah, the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and 62 weeks. The street shall be built again and the wall, even in troublesome times. Okay, so he said from the time, and this is something we mentioned earlier in the previous session, from the time the decree is given to go and rebuild Jerusalem till Messiah will be seven weeks and 62 weeks or seven plus 62 is 69. 69 weeks, a total of 483 years. Right? So the command will be given to go and rebuild Jerusalem. And Gabriel is saying, the street will be built and the wall will be built even in difficult times, which is what happened when you read the book of Ezra and Nehemiah. You know, the city was rebuilt, the walls were rebuilt, but it was difficult. In difficult times it was rebuilt. You know, there was a lot of opposition, but it was rebuilt. And from the time this this decree is issued to the time of the Messiah, that is Jesus, 483 years. And remember, Jesus is the one who's come to make reconciliation for iniquity. Okay, verse 26. And after the 62 weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself. And the people of the Prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood and till the end of the war, desolations are determined. Thank you. So after the 62 weeks, seven plus 62, that is 69 weeks, Messiah shall be cut off. Messiah will be killed. Now, Daniel didn't understand all of this. But he's, this is what Gabriel is telling Daniel, Messiah will be cut off, Messiah will be killed. And the people of the Prince who is to come, that means there's going to be a ruler.  That's exactly what happened. The city of Jerusalem and the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, AD 70. Messiah was killed, AD 30 or AD 33, some AD 30. Messiah was killed, Jesus was killed, 40 years later, AD 70. Jerusalem was destroyed and the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman emperor, general Titus. So the people of the Prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Right? Till, and the end of it will be with the flood. It was devastating. Till the end of war, of the war desolations are determined. That means till the end, there's going to be a lot of desolations happening, things happening over and over again, in and around Israel. Things are, there's going to be a lot of desolations happening. Okay. So he's saying, Messiah will be killed, temple will be destroyed and then there's going to be an ongoing time of trouble. Then what will happen? Chris 27. Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week, he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. So now verse 27, he's actually talking about the Antichrist. But Gabriel calls this Antichrist one who makes desolate on the wing of abominations. That means he is coming and like he is like riding upon abominations. He's going to do things that are determined for God. And he's going to make desolate. So this is who Jesus is referring to in Matthew 24, 15, which we just read. Jesus is referring to this verse, Daniel 9, 27. So what is Gabriel telling? He's saying, then that means after the spirit of time when desolations are happening, all kinds of things are happening to the Jewish people, then this man who makes desolate or as he is referred to him as the abomination of desolation, the Antichrist. He will confirm a covenant with many for one week. That means he is going to usher in this one week, the 70th week of Daniel. One week representing seven years. He is going to confirm a covenant. So in modern language, we will call it a peace treaty. He's going to set up a covenant for a seven year period. So that's how this man is going to come into power. A seven year. This is Daniel 70th week because if you look back on verse 25 and 26, he's covered seven plus 62, 69 weeks he's covered. Then he's left a gap and then he's talking about the last week in verse 27. One week that's Daniel 70th week. This man is will come and set up the seven year covenant or treaty. But in the middle of the week, which is in the middle of seven years, which is three and a half years, he will bring an end to sacrifice and offering. So this is why we say there has to be a temple because he's going to abruptly stop sacrifice and offerings. And you can read, you know, there are more details in preceding chapters and chapter 11 as well about these things. We are just looking at one passage. And he is going to come and do so many abominations. He's going to make desolate until the consummation is poured out on this person who makes things desolate. That means the final judgment will be poured out on him. Okay. So now we go back to Matthew 24, 15. Because Jesus is quoting Daniel 9, 27 and says, hey, may it be the abomination. This is verse 15, Matthew 24. When you see the abomination, that means he's already gotten into that seven last seven year period, into that 70th week of Daniel. That's why I was saying earlier there is a transition there in verse 15 of Matthew 24. Till verse 14 he's talking about things happening globally, but suddenly in verse 15 he's zeroing in on the Jewish people. That means he's talking about what Daniel chapter 9, what we just read. Is this all clear so far? Everybody with me so far? So I see Elisha's question, put an end to sacrifice and offering. That means in the temple, in the Jewish temple. They would be doing sacrifice and offering and he will come and that means they'll be worshiping Yahweh God by sacrifice and offering. So part of his covenant, his peace thing is obviously he will bring in peace to the Middle East by creating a place where the Jews will be able to sacrifice an offering. So that's why we talk about the third temple being in place. But he will start off like that, but in the middle of the seven years he will come and say stop it. Don't continue. So that's what Gabriel is referring to saying. He will tell them to stop offering sacrifices and we will look for the later on in Revelation 13. He will see that actually the Antichrist sets himself up in the temple and says you worship me. So he's going to tell the Jewish people don't offer sacrifices, but I am going to be God. You have to worship me. No, no, that's what the Antichrist wants. He wants people to worship the devil through him. Okay, so that's what he's referring to. Elisha, you understood that? Do you need further explanation? You got it? Okay, so the question Elisha is asking is the Jewish temple's number place under contention between Jews and Islam? So how can we find fulfillment of this prophecy? That's a good question. So that's why we are saying because that whole temple mount is a place of dispute and that's the cause of a lot of contention between the Arabs and the Jews. This man is going to find a solution to it. That's why he's going to establish a covenant at peace treaty and in the peace treaty the Jews are going to be able to offer sacrifices and offerings. So right now that's what the whole problem is about, right? The Jews are saying hey that's our space but there's a mosque and there's a dome over there. The Arabs are in control. The Jews are not happy about it but this man is going to be able to bring about a peace treaty that will give permission to the Jews to have their sacrifices restarted. So that's why we are saying there's going to be this third temple somehow, how where and exactly, how it's going to be built. We don't know but it's going to happen and it's going to come into place. And what's your follow-up question Elisha? That is what I asked with the temple and the convention. I am satisfied with your response now. Okay, thank you. All right Devya, what's your question please? Pastor, I was just trying to understand Daniel chapter 9 was 26 there that 62 weeks and 69 weeks like the 69 weeks have been fulfilled. So I was trying to understand where the seven weeks had been fulfilled. I didn't get it. Okay, so what we were saying is see in verse 25 Daniel 9 25 he says 7 plus 62 that is 69 weeks said from the time King Cyrus issues a decree to go rebuild Jerusalem till the Messiah 69 weeks, so that is 483 years is over. Then there is no more counting of weeks. It's just that verse 26 comes into play that the Messiah is going to die, is going to be killed, the city is going to be destroyed, the sanctuary is going to be destroyed which all happened and then there's going to be time of war and desolation. It's going to be time of trouble basically. So that whole period of time is not counted in that 70 weeks. So there's one seven week period that is still pending and that seven week he references in verse 27. He brings that up. He says and so that is after this whole time of war and desolation that's going on. Then there's going to be this man who's going to come in and put in a peace treaty for seven week. The one week that is the 70th week. So that's where the 70th week comes in. So there's actually a time gap between the 69 weeks which bring us all the way till Jesus is crucified to the last week, the 70th week. There's a time gap. You got it? Okay. So the 69th week is till when Jesus was crucified. Yes. Okay. Yes. So 69 weeks took place from the time of King Cyrus till Jesus was crucified. 69 weeks is over. Okay. Okay. Right. Okay. Then there is time for war and desolation. Then the last 70th week comes in. Okay. So this time gap between Daniel 69th week and Daniel 70th week is what we refer to as a church age. That's the time God is dealing with the church because from the crucifying of the Messiah till the Antichrist comes into the church age. The church isn't. So that's why it doesn't have to do with the Jewish people. Church age. Then comes Daniel 927. This man confirms a covenant for one week. Okay. That's the question. I have one more question. Can I ask? Go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah. So this word abomination. Is it like whatever is holy to God is being made unholy? Is that abomination? Yeah. So an abomination means anything that is displeasing to God. So this man is going to be riding on the wing of abominations. That means he's going to be such a man who's going to be like doing a whole lot of things that are displeasing to God. And you know we will read. I mean if when we read Daniel 7, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 11 and then Revelation 13 and also Paul wrote about it in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 and all these places. Basically this man is going to speak blasphemous words against the most high and he's going to set himself up as God to be worshiped. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. We're not getting into all those details. We will maybe when we look at the timeline we will you know reference the scriptures. Okay. One more question from Elijah. Will this man referenced in verse 27 be a political figure or religious person? Okay. So to answer your question, Elijah, what we see in Revelation 13, there are three actors. There is the beast. There is the false prophet and there is the beast of the Antichrist. There is the false prophet and then there is Satan, the dragon. So these three people are acting together. So this man, the Antichrist himself, as a political figure because he is going to be able to set up a covenant with the people and in Revelation 13 you find that this man, the beast, the Antichrist, is going to also influence the financial system because no man will be able to buy and sell unless they have the mark of the beast. So this is Revelation 13 but he is going to be helped by another person who's referred to as the false prophet. The false prophet, as we will see in Revelation 13 and also in Revelation 18, he is a religious person, religious leader because he is his whole objective is he going to perform signs and wonders. The beast will also do amazing things but this man will also do signs and wonders and his goal is to get people to worship the Antichrist, the beast and empowering both of them is the dragon, that is the devil. He's empowering both of them. Got it? This is clearly explained for us in Revelation 13. That's why we call it a political system that influences the financial system and also a religious system, all working together, trying to control people. The ultimate goal is to get them to worship the Antichrist, the devil through the Antichrist. So put that there, Satan, Antichrist and false prophet, unholy Trinity. That was a little deviation but it's become a very long deviation. I didn't mean for it to be so long. Okay, Christopher, go ahead. I just wanted us to explain the background to Matthew 24-15 but anyway, go ahead, Christopher. Yes, Pastor, I just wanted to clarify regarding this point you had raised about the Antichrist brokering this peace treaty. There was some, I'm not sure where I got the reference from, but the point that was raised was about the temple being taken over by the Jews, in a sense by force and they would worship the temple and then subsequently this peace treaty would be broken by the Antichrist. So I just wanted to understand if that sort of is sort of consistent with what or is there any value in that particular view? Okay, so the answer to that would be the Bible doesn't tell us specifically how this covenant of peace is going to be established. The Bible doesn't tell us. What we can and what the scriptures do make it clear is there is a covenant of peace for seven years, there is a temple, there is the resumption of sacrifices and offerings, but it doesn't tell us the details like or the Jews, you know, like exactly like what you said, that the Jews may take the temple, may, you know, put up the temple by force and start the thing and then this man comes in and sets up peace. Those details are not given to us, so our response to such a suggestion would be possible maybe, but we cannot state it for sure, may happen the way or it could happen in a different way, but what we are certain of is there is this Antichrist, he does set up a seven-year peace treaty, there is the temple where sacrifices and offerings are resumed, those things we are certain of. The exact way in which this, you know, this treaty is going to be executed, we don't know, the Bible doesn't tell us. So it is this peace treaties for seven years, is it? Yes. This number seven seems to be occurring quite often, this is all before the tribulation, right? So the seven years is the tribulation period, the seven years of tribulation. I'm sorry, I passed it, I didn't get it. The seven years will be the seven years of tribulation. Okay, okay, yeah, thank you. Got it. Okay, all right, so that was a little excursion on the side, hope you enjoyed the picnic. Now we get back to the main thing, that's Matthew 24, we're going to pick up in verse 15. I was trying to explain, you know, what Jesus was referring to in Daniel. So there's this transition, so let's read on from Matthew 24 verse 15, can somebody please start with verse 15 again, you know, two verses each or three verses each, let's go through it quickly. Therefore, when you see the abomination of the dissolution, spoken up by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, whoever reads, let him understand, then let those who are in Judea lead to the mountains. Okay, let's go on. Let the one who is on the house top, not go down to take waters in the showers, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take this block. And if those days of tribulation had not been cut short, no human life would be saved, but for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened. Then if anyone says to you, look here is the Christ or there he is, do not believe it, for false Christ and false prophets will appear and they will provide great science and wonders, so as to deceive if possible even the elect. All right, thank you. Let's pause here. What I want to say is this, right? What we said is in verse 15, there's a transition, there's a shift. Till verse 14, it's talking about everybody. Verse 15 onwards, there's a focus in on Jerusalem. Why? Because that seven year period is a focus on the Jews and Jerusalem, which we saw from Daniel chapter 9. So you'll also find in Jesus speaking, he is specifically talking about Judea, saying, look, you know, when you see the abomination, then those who are in Judea, no, in other words, he's speaking very specifically about that area because we see that that seven year period is a time of great tribulation and the Antichrist is going to go out all out against the Jewish people, especially in the second half of the seven year period. You will see that in Revelation 12, he's going to go out against the Jewish people. So that's why I'm talking about Judea. And if you're in Judea, don't do these things. You won't, you won't be able to do it, that the attack against the Jewish people will be so intense. You can't even come down from your house top to the, from the rooftop to down to the floor below.  It's going to be so dangerous, right? And he says in verse 21, there will be great tribulation. So the seven years is tribulation. The second half of the tribulation is called great tribulation. We will see that again later on. It's a time of Jacob's trouble. The Bible talks about that. So we talk about seven years of tribulation, but that's three and a half years. The second half is going to be time of great tribulation. So Jesus is talking about these things. And again, in verse 22, talk about the elect's sake. The elect is suffering to the Jewish people. For their sake, the time will be shortened. So God will come in and intervene, right? But what I want to point out is from verse 15 onwards, the focus has shifted on the tribulation, the great tribulation, what is happening directly with the Jewish people. And there's going to be false Christ and false prophets, like we said, and we can see that as we mentioned, you know, these people will be attempting to get everybody to worship the Antichrist and doing all these things, signs and wonders and so on. And people, there will be this heightened thing on the coming of the Lord, because now everybody understands, hey, prophecy is being fulfilled. The only hope is that Jesus Christ has to come back.  He says, don't believe it, because the coming of the Son of Man is going to be so powerful. Verse 27, this is the end of the great tribulation. Okay, now we're coming to the end of the great tribulation. That's what he's referring to is coming of the Son of Man is going to be so powerful. It's like the lightning from the east to the west and that wraps up there with the end of the great tribulation. It's the, with the battle of Armageddon and all of that, right? So Jesus is speaking about this entire timeline. He's talking about verses four to fourteen are all the things leading up to the tribulation. All these signs are happening and they're going to happen an increasing measure and the gospel is being preached throughout the world. There is intensity of persecution against the Christians. So all this is happening versus four to fourteen before the tribulation versus 15 to 27 or 28 is this, this period of tribulation the seven years, okay, with the intensity increasing in the latter half of the seven years, right? And then I'm just kind of going a little fast here because we're running out of time and verse 29 he says after the tribulation, those days the sun will be dark and the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall. And so you find those same signs about the sun being dark and moon and all those catastrophic cataclysmic events with, you know, the planetary bodies and so on. You find that actually in Revelation in Revelation chapter 6 verse 12, Revelation 8 verse 12 during the tribulation these things are happening. So we can map what Jesus is saying in Matthew 24, 29 to the whole tribulation period and after all those things then we're study. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven. All the tribes of the earth will see, they'll mourn, the Son of Man will come in the clouds of heaven with the power in great glory. That's Revelation 19 and the Son of Man comes with all the angels and he will send his angels verse 31 and the trumpet will sound. They'll gather to get the elect from the forewind. So that's Revelation 19. Okay, so basically Matthew 24, 15 to 31. Matthew 24, 15 to 31 can be mapped with Revelation chapter 6, verse 1, all the way to the end of verse chapter 19. It's the entire tribulation period. Matthew, let me repeat that again. Matthew 24, 15 to 31. You map it with Revelation chapter 6, verse 1, till the end of Revelation 19. That's Revelation chapter 19, verse 21. Well, with me so far. Say your question please. Yes, thank you Pastor. So you said from, we can map it to, you can give the map in basic, I think my question basically is, what did Jesus now mean by verse 19 when he says, how terrible it will be for pregnant women and for nursing with mothers in those days. And pray that your flight will not be in winter on Sabbath, for there will be greater anguish than any time since the war begun and it will never be so again. I just want clarity on that, on those verses sir. Yeah, so what will happen during the tribulation, especially the second half of the tribulation, that means the latter half or three and a half years, there'll be an intense attack against the Jewish people. You read about this in Revelation chapter 12. I'll just give you the reference to see how intense it's going to be.  Revelation 12, 12, his time is short. Revelation 12, verse 13, it says, when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. He persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. The woman here represents Israel. So the dragon, that is Satan, is going after the nation of Israel. Verse 14, Revelation 12, 14, but the woman was given two wings of a great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness to her place where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time from the presence of the serpent. So what is time? That's one times, that's two and half a time, that is three and a half. So for three and a half years, Satan is going to go after Israel as a nation, but God is going to somehow preserve the people, right, going to protect the people. But the point is this, that again, I'm skipping to verse 17 of Revelation 12, and the dragon was aged with a woman, woman is Israel, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring. So he's going after the Jewish people who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Many of them will turn to Christ as well. But Revelation 12 gives us a clear picture of what's going to happen during the second half, the time, times and half a time, three and a half years of the great of the tribulation. Satan is, there's going to be tremendous attack against the Jewish people, and that is what Jesus is referring to here in Matthew 24, verses 15 onwards. So he says, look, the time, you know, it's going to be so difficult. Verse 16, Matthew 24, he says, if you're in Judea, if you're in that area, Judea means the whole district around Jerusalem. He says, you run to the month, if you're, don't even come down from your half stop to take your clothing. Verse 17, don't even go to the field to take your clothes. And it's going to be really sad if you are pregnant, because how are you going to escape? You know, how are you going to run? And then verse 20, don't, you know, hope that you don't have to run during winter. I mean, it's going to be really difficult if you have to flee during winter or on the Sabbath, because Sabbath day means you cannot use any means of transportation. They only walk. So imagine if you have to run for your life on the Sabbath, you can't use your car, you can't get on the, I mean, you can't use any typically a proper Jew, would not use any of these means of transportation. They just only walk. And imagine if you're to flee for your life on the Sabbath. So that's what he's referring to. Because verse 21, there will be such great tribulation. You got it? Thank you, Pastor. Yeah, it's clear now. It's very clear. Thank you. All right. Last question from Divya, please. Thank you. Thank you, Pastor. I was, as we're reading this Matthew 24, is it in a chronological order? That is one question. And in this portion, as you mentioned in verses 30 and 31. Yeah. So that refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ, correct? So where is rapture? Where is the secret coming? So that that that will happen between verse 14 and 15. So that we are going to establish a little later on, right? So because till verse 14, it's about the gospel being preached to the nation. So we have to be around to do that work. But once that gospel has been preached to the nations, it's verse 14, the focus shifts now to the Jewish people. So something has changed. So between verse 14 and 15, the church is taken out of the way that we will establish later. Okay. But what I wanted us to understand is this in Matthew 24, verse 4 to 14 is the period leading up to the tribulation. The church is still around. The gospel is being preached. The church is being persecuted for the name of Jesus Christ. Verse 15 to 31 is the seven year tribulation which maps to Revelation chapter six, verse one to Revelation 19, 21. So Revelation 19, 21 ends with Jesus coming in at the end of the tribulation and establishing his kingdom. Now, the rest of Matthew 24 is an exhortation for all of us to be ready, right? To, you know, to be, you know, to be alert, to be ready, you know, if you're not, if you don't have time to read it, but he, he says, you know, be ready. You don't know when the coming of the Son of Man is, right? It's a, it's a thing.  He talks about being stewards, you know, talents, user talents, mostly and so on. But it's the exhortation to be faithful, right? But if you understand this whole in Matthew chapter 24, 24 to 14, prior to tribulation, 15 to 31, the tribulation period, that's, that's a clear picture. Then what we will do, I was hoping to get to it today, but I guess we will do it next week, is the next chapter is to get a little understanding of the geography or the reasons involved. So what we will see next week is, of course, we understand Israel. We understand that it is surrounded all by Arab nations, but we will also understand that Daniel spoke about world empires all the way to the Roman Empire. And then he spoke about another loosely held amalgamation or a group of 10 leaders who used to belong to the Roman, former Roman Empire. So a loosely held grouping of 10 leaders. And he says, in the days of these leaders God himself will set up his kingdom on the earth. Daniel prophesied that. So this region, which is part of the former Roman Empire, which today forms a major part of the European Union, is of interest to us. Then Daniel also prophesied about the four parts of the Greek Empire, which is Syria, Egypt, Syria, Egypt, Turkey, and Greece. And what Daniel said is, out of one of these four areas, the Antichrist will come. So we look carefully at Syria, Egypt, Turkey and see what's happening. Because Daniel foretold that from one of the four divisions of the Greek Empire the Antichrist will come. And we know historically the Greek Empire was divided into what is today as parts of Greece, Syria, Turkey, and Egypt. So we look at these. So what we see is one of the leaders emerging from this region, the region of these four areas would begin to establish an alliance with these 10 leaders who are part of the former Roman Empire. And he will come into prominence. So these areas are very important for us. The Bible also talks about Russia. The Bible also talks about a nation from the east with an army of about two billion. So that most likely points to China, a nation from the east with such a large army. So we will just look at all of these geographies. So we say, okay, these are the regions of interest for us now as far as end time Bible prophecy is concerned. So we just want to be aware of what's happening in these regions. So that will be our next chapter. Just giving a quick overview. We will cover that next week. After we do that, we will get into looking at the sequence of events. And that's when we will start talking about, you know, I'll give you an overview of the sequence of events and then I'll say, you know, why do we say the rapture is going to take place at the end of the church age and before the beginning of the tribulation? What are the reasons? What will happen when the church gets caught up into heaven? What's going to happen in heaven? What's going to be happening on earth? And then we get an overview of book of revelation to say this, what's going to happen and all of that. Okay, so we will do all that in the weeks to come. I hope all of you are, you know, following and of course if you have any questions, feel free to ask. Okay, we'll pause here for today. Could somebody close in prayer and dismiss us please? Sir, keep praying. Okay, yeah. Sir, please pray for me. Oh, yes. Okay, we are going to, oh, thanks for reminding us. Are we going to pray for Kishin, pray for his healing? He's got sinus and some other problems. So can somebody lead us in prayer or who wants to lead us in prayer or, okay, let's go. Okay. Do you want to pray? Lead us in prayer and pray for Kishin. We all agree. Yes, sir. From here, sir. Go ahead. Go ahead. Let's all pray. We agree together. All right, so let's pray. Precious Father, we thank you for this very moment. What do you say we are grateful for? All that you've taught us today. Father, we pray that we are going to do as of your word and not hear us only. Father, even as you are teaching us about the end times, helping us to be conscious that we should watch and pray and lead others to do what you ought, what we ought to do. Father, we pray for more grace, more wisdom. For your way says that we should work in wisdom among the that are not. Father, we pray that that will be our life, that we will not only take this message for ourselves, but we will teach others in faithfulness, in power, in your grace, that as we all await your coming, Father, we'll be ready. For we know you are preparing a place for us, and so have you asked us to prepare our hearts and mind. Father, for we know that you have told us that before we start preaching the gospel, we should set our hearts and mind on you. This is the kind of people that we want to be. Thank you, Father, for the lectures you've given us, thank you for the pastors and the mentors you've given us, ahead of time, to equip us and to guide us in the light. Father, we declare that we work in the truth of your way, that none of us will work in darkness, that as we have received this light, we will work in them. Thank you, Father, in the name of Jesus, we have prayed. Amen. Amen. Amen. Let's pray for Kishan too. Thank you, Abraham. And so, Father, we just pray over Kishan.  We command the sinus problem to leave every affliction, to leave in the name of Jesus. We command him and decree him whole, because he has been healed by the stripes of Jesus. So that we complete wholeness administered to him now in Jesus' name. Thank you, Lord. Amen. God bless everyone. Thank you so much for being on the cross.


Thank you. First, let me begin by an apology, which is I wasn't actually supposed to be here. Originally, Maggie McMillan was supposed to be on this panel and present a paper, and she was unable to make it and taking advantage of the fact that I was sort of in the neighborhood by my usual standards. I've been spending a couple of months at Oxford. She asked me if I could do this, so I said I'd be happy. Once I looked at the program, it looked really fascinating. In fact, we just heard two very good presentations that, in comparison, mine is going to be extremely incoherent because, first, it's not based on a paper. Second, I'm trying to bring in ideas from three different lines of research that I've been engaged in, and I'm going to try to make all of this as relevant as possible to what you've already heard, and then we can discuss. Briefly, what I'm going to be talking about is a little bit about the economics of manufacturing and convergence, and then talk a little bit about the institutions and issues of institutional design and architecture of state business relations. Here, there will be lots of parallels and complementarities, what we've just heard, and then I'll just put on my amateur political scientist hat and make a couple of comments about the politics of industrial policy. Let me start first with the economics of manufacturing and the role that manufacturing plays in economic growth and convergence. One big question here is why is manufacturing special and different? One window on the role that manufacturing plays in economic growth comes from these results on the prevailing tendency of unconditional convergence in manufacturing around the world in terms of labor productivity. The striking result here is that once these manufacturing industries get established, there is an almost automatic tendency for convergence towards the productivity frontier, regardless of basically of the level of disaggregation that you're looking at. These pictures are two digit manufacturing industries. The panel on the left is really the full sample covers 118 countries. Each dot here is a two digit manufacturing industry in one country. The striking thing here is that when you look at this picture, I'm actually not controlling for any country-specific features because we normally think that convergence is highly conditional, depends on country characteristics, whether you've got your human capital right, whether you've got your institutions right, whether you've got your policies right, whether you've got your macro stability. But when you look at manufacturing, it turns out that regardless of that, as even if you don't control for country-level characteristics, once these industries have been set up, they tend to converge in labor productivity terms. And you can see this from the negative slope, which is that the lower the initial base of labor productivity, the more rapid the subsequent rate of growth of labor productivity over the next decade. Now, before I knew that this was also true for Africa, but before I came here I wanted to check again. So the right panel is what you see is the same sample, but now restricted to just the sub-Saharan African countries. There's about 20 sub-Saharan African countries here. And the relationship is, if anything, at least the slope is steeper in the sub-Saharan African case. Again, it's the same thing that every country enters multiple times because of different two-digit industries. Now there's a selection. There's an issue here in terms of how to interpret this, because the sample here in most cases are already registered formal firms. So you don't want to think about this manufacturing as a whole. You really want to think about it as organized manufacturing industries. In most of these African countries the sample covers firms that with at least 10 employees. So maybe not sort of the medium-sized firms that John Sutton was talking about, somewhat smaller firms as well, but the striking thing is that there is this pattern. As I said, also you can observe this at various levels of disaggregation. I won't go to the four-digit, which looks very similar. But even if you aggregate at the level of manufacturing, you get the same, which is, so this is now each observation is aggregate manufacturing in different countries. And for the sub-Saharan African sample, pretty much a negative relationship. Of course it's only in the latter case about 21 countries including South Africa. So it's much smaller samples. So again, to emphasize this, it doesn't mean to emphasize what this means. It doesn't mean that policies don't matter. It doesn't mean that if you don't have appropriate macroeconomic frameworks, you don't have good human capital and governance, that in fact the productivity increase in your manufacturing sector will be even higher. But the striking thing here is that you actually don't need that. That there is some inherent dynamic in manufacturing, or at least again, organized manufacturing that puts you on this escalator. So that's the sense in which organized manufacturing seems to be the escalator part of the economy. Where if you just basically get these industries up and going, that there is an inherent dynamic that's going to push you towards the productivity frontier. Now, if manufacturing exhibits such convergence, the question is why doesn't it not aggregate to the economy as a whole? Why doesn't it carry over to the entire economy? And here I think we begin to get a bit of a glimpse as to sort of how in fact successful countries differ from unsuccessful countries, because it is not by and large in terms of the internal dynamics of how well their manufacturing has done in terms of productivity, but in fact in terms of how successful they have been in increasing the size of their manufacturing industries. That is increasing the number of firms, increasing the size of the existing firms in these escalator industries. So if you just want to think about how this would aggregate over to the entire economy, think about the economy being made up of sort of the modern sector, this manufacturing part of the economy, which exhibits this escalator unconditional convergence behavior, and then think about the rest, think about the traditional part or what I've called here the non-manufacturing, but you may want to think about the rest of the economy that doesn't exhibit this convergence behavior. And then if you ask how does aggregate growth gets determined, well aggregate growth gets the benefit of this convergence property, where beta is the convergence rate, but the problem is that the part of the economy which is exhibiting this convergence is actually very, very small. It's the manufacturing, and that's alpha. So in an African country this might be 5%, no more. So even though part of the economy is getting this convergence kick, it's not really carrying over in the large to the economy simply because the part of it that gets this escalator treatment is such a tiny part. And actually a big differentiator across countries is really going to be whether in fact resources are moving in the right direction, that is the converging parts of the economy, the manufacturing or escalator parts of the industry are expanding because given there's going to be large differential productivity differential given this convergence behavior between manufacturing and non-manufacturing, you're going to get a large kick out of this. And that's to some extent the key difference here in terms of reallocation of resources, the movement into manufacturing, again something that John Sutton emphasized this morning, is a key dynamic. And now that can happen both because individual firms, existing firms are growing and in successful countries they're going to be growing much faster than in non-successful countries or because you get entry. More firms enter the registered organized parts of the economy. But the emphasis that this framework generates in terms of industrial policy and state business relations is going to be an emphasis that says, well perhaps you have to pay a little bit less attention to the productivity dynamic of existing firms, a little bit more attention to whether in fact they're growing because those are two different things. The productivity dynamic seems to be, there seems to be an inherent productivity dynamic there but what's really big difference across countries is in fact whether those escalator industries are able to draw resources from the rest of the economy, they're able to expand or not. So that provides an appropriate and important focus for state business relations and industrial policy, enterprise policy, whatever you want to call it, is simply to figure out what is preventing these firms from growing or what is preventing new firms from entering into these sectors as opposed to what things that we might think of in the advanced country context as productivity policies or R&D policies and other things that are converse that focus on this term. So let me now move on to sort of this, the second institutional part of my presentation, the state business relations. So here's a triangle that actually sort of looks a little bit like the one that Lindsay showed you in fact there's going to be lots of parallel. I like to distinguish when thinking about the architectural design of industrial policies as essentially thinking about the separate roles of the state and business but let's not forget that there's a society out there and one of the things that I think one of the problems of industrial policy in the Asian context is that the state business relations have been working very well, thank you, but there is some problem in terms of to what extent that actually serves society's well-being and to what extent it's actually accountable to society. So the first element which John already mentioned is the notion of embeddedness and the notion of embeddedness comes from the fact that really the government doesn't have enough information about where the obstacles are, where the opportunities are, sort of where do you, again, which wheels are broken, again to use John Sutton's term and that information is going to be diffused widely in society within across firms and so the state or the bureaucracy has got to be embedded in society so that there are mechanisms through which that information can be elicited. So in that setting actually the traditional way in which economists think about regulation which is in terms of principal agent models is very, very, I think it's the wrong way of thinking about the way that bureaucracy ought to relate to business in this context because the principal agent model begins by assuming that the state actually or the bureaucrats or the regulator knows what it wants to maximize, what it wants to optimize, what's the welfare function or what the maximum is. A lot of this is actually trying to figure out what is it that you're trying to do. So in that sense this embeddedness is very important. The notion, the term embeddedness I think was first used by Peter Evans and it's interesting that he used this in the context of the station countries like South Korea where he said yes, the state in South Korea has been autonomous. That's sort of been the traditional focus of why is it that South Korea had been successfully industrial policy. But he said autonomy isn't enough. It's also that it has been an embedded kind of an autonomy so that the bureaucrats, the state were actually able to on an ongoing basis elicit information from business. Now John's discussion of presidential councils advisory councils was very interesting because it is a deliberate attempt at creating some kind of embeddedness. But also suggests that it's embeddedness isn't something that you can have only at the highest level. So it's interesting that one of the findings as John stated is that these presidential councils weren't very good about identifying obstacles. Did I get that right? And that's exactly what you would expect because they're so high level. You have these 15 large firms and what is it that those large 15 firms can agree on? They can probably agree on taxes are too high and there's too much red tape and so they can only agree on that but there's going to be very little else that they're going to agree on whereas in fact the real obstacles, the real problems are going to be much more deeply in sort of at a much more fringrained level. So in some sense this embeddedness really has to run through deeper layers of society. Now of course I want to repeat what Lindsay said which is that you cannot expect everything that these structures aren't going to be identical but you can rely on those pockets of bureaucratic efficiency or some of the more capable institutions to perform that function as well as you can which is of course another reason why you don't want to be too orthodox about the instruments of industrial policy because the appropriate instruments may often depend on which agency actually has the capacity. So what you may want to do through credit instruments in one country may better be done through tax instruments in another simply because of the differential capacity of different agencies. The second is really sort of discipline, of course I need to say probably the least about this because obviously what you want, the state you want to be embedded in business but you don't want to be in bed with business and so I think the component of discipline which is that you need to provide the stick as well as the carrot and that is really ultimately going to rely on formulating clear objectives, including measurable targets, degree of monitoring, evaluation, and program review. So I think these are some of the obvious elements that go in there. And third, the issue of accountability because ultimately this is, industrial policy is not about a nice cozy working relationship between bureaucrats and business, it's really about serving society's well-being and so you will need mechanisms of accountability here. Now when you look at East Asia, it's actually quite interesting about the lack of accountability. I mean in Singapore there's absolutely no accountability of industrial policy. You have all these bureaucrats deciding on the fate of industries and firms behind completely closed doors and nobody really knows actually what they're doing and why they're doing it except that they're very good at what they do. And part of what that is perhaps that in Singapore that they're actually very, very well paid and you can afford to hire them. In China I think probably there's obviously a lot of corruption that goes on but by and large it served positive ends and you might say that it's been because of competition across provinces and municipalities that has kept bureaucrats relatively honest. So in the three minutes or so that remains I want to just turn to my last idea, last topic which is how do you get this thing?  And here I just want to complement what Lindsay has said in terms of the importance of political settlements, social contracts, contracts, you know what Jamal and Robinson often talk about in terms of critical junctures, these periods when you have sort of this realignment of interests that enable a new bargain to be enunciated to that creates the context and environment in which you can get these positive institutional changes going forward. Now the main contribution I want to make to that discussion is simply emphasize something that is very attractive to any academic but I think is also true which is the power of ideas. And we often think about and I think there's a tendency in the political science literature but also in the sort of economics and the economy literature to think about sort of how these conditions come about in too much power and vested interests terms. That is that you need to get the constellation of power and vested interests just right that you can set up these institutions. I would like to say that in fact that these outcomes are relatively under determined by interests because oftentimes you're able to tell stories or narratives about what states have got to do that are compatible with the same constellation of power and interests but can take you in many different directions. So think about two different objectives which the elites have. You know you could be that they want to enrich themselves or you could be that they are actually sort of bureaucratically minded or state elites that they want to aggrandize the power of the state for foreign policy or military reasons. Well you say how am I going to best pursue that end? Well you can tell yourself a story that the way to do it is by repress markets concentrate all the power in your hands or you can tell a story that in fact you're going to do that in the markets by globalizing in a controlled kind of way ex ante whether in fact this enriches you more or that enriches you more, I would argue is not fully determined by the initial constellation of interests or power and I think the same argument would go about the aggrandizement of the state. Often we talk about the South Koreans or the Taiwanese having turned towards that growth promoting industrial policies because they felt this external threat and they reacted to that external threat by saying we better be manufacturing or export superpower so we can stand up to that. Well you know many countries in the Middle East, Egypt for example, responded to the appearance of a similar external threat from Israel in a very different manner by in fact building up an inward oriented military industrial complex with very different consequences. So what I want to really emphasize here is that there's a role for framing, there's a role for ideas, there's a role for narratives about what you can achieve without necessarily powerful people losing their power but simply reinterpreting in fact what their interests are. So let me stop.


We we went to different middle schools and I think we each knew who each other was you know, but Maybe at that point not really interested Just through sports and everything you know probably knew each other and and once we got into high school You know our both of our groups of friends just kind of started hanging out. I guess and Then we'd start hanging out, you know a little bit here on the side on our own and then Before you know, you know, we were doing a boyfriend girlfriend thing Well, that lasted about six months and then I got friendzoned which is pretty epic failure, you know, but Then we took yeah, so we broke up for about a year and then got back together a junior year and we've been dating Since then Yeah Any tips for any other guys that might be stuck in the friend zone? It's persistence. Just keep at it