And all of you have very nice discussions in the breakout rooms. Unfortunately, we did not hear any feedback from several groups about which topic they are presenting. But we hope that there won't be any overlaps of the topics right fine. So what we want to do now is we want all of you to select one person who can volunteer from your group. And that person will have to briefly, very briefly.  And then we'll have a discussion around it. We will comment. And also we can open other participants to comment as well. So without wasting much time, shall we start with group one? So who is volunteering from group one to present? OK, I'll put it here for group one. Could you please share your presentation? You can share. Thank you. Let me just share now. OK, OK, thank you, everyone. We couldn't start on time in group one. I think we had a lot of discussion as to what the indicator to choose from. But although it would be fully appropriate our framework here, but I'll quickly take you through it. And I'll just probably talk about the related actions. Because now we couldn't complete the table. So let me quickly share. We chose the second and third 90 indicators here. But we focused mainly on the workload coverage in this particular example. So the objective, I think, I wonder if you can all see our, you can clearly see the visualization. But viral load coverage is the very last bar on the graph here. It is the very last bar on the graph. And so the objective here was to, I think, is to measure the viral load coverage at an initial level against the target of 90% this year, target linear. So we thought that this is the objective is to measure viral load coverage against the 90% target. But this data is shown at an initial level. And our data source here, although we didn't go back into the data sharing screen to see exactly how the forms look, we just believe that this one could be from the viral load testing data that we capture on monthly basis. Because you see here, it is on the visualization, on the last half month. So we took an assumption that this is reported on monthly basis. And here, we believe that if we break our data set into denominator and numerator, so we believe that all people living with HIV who are eligible for viral testing that should compose our denominator while our numerator should be those people who actually test it for not really for HIV. So yeah, I said test it for HIV, but it has to say test it for viral load. So our denominator are people who are eligible for viral load testing. And our numerator should be people who actually test it for viral load. And on the related actions, I think we didn't complete that because of time. But we believe that the actions should be taken for facilities that are for coverage. That is way below the target. And if we look at our visualization, we can know that for all these indicators, or if you look at viral load coverage, this at 53.5, that is way below the expected 90% viral load coverage. So I think the consent parties should take action to ensure that the coverage is good here. But again, there may be a lot of reasons related to this. But now that we didn't have time to explore that, we really tend to approach some informative discussion on that one. I think that's all for Group 1. Thank you. Right. Thank you very much. Just keep on sharing. So we will give the opportunity for other groups to come in. So any comments you have on what the Group 1 has presented or the specific visualization, anything more you can add to what they were presenting? Anything you can add? We can add programmatic implications in related actions, because the achievement is below our target. So we can recommend whether is it due to the functionality of testing facilities or is it due to access to the testing labs? So we need to add some programmatic implications, I think, in related actions. Yeah, very good. So basically, like we have to write what you can do is you can go at a detail about actions. So if it is one thing you can do is you can have a cutoff value, it's just not that 90% trend line. But in case what to do if it is more than 100 or like you can have multiple, and for each of them, you can think all possible combinations for variations based on the numerator and the denominator as well. Thank you. The comments? OK, although we were presenting it, can I have a question? Yeah. OK, thank you. I just want to know on the indicator patch, like we put a viral load coverage. So I'm just trying to come to a real-life situation where we have a test with this one here or a graph, like this one, which is composed of many indicators. Can we put all of them there? And on the data source, put all of the narrative for the indicators that we find in the graph or what is the practice here? What is the practice can we have all the indicators written and then show the graph objectives? How do we put it? Thank you. I don't know if I'm clear. It is not totally clear to me. You mean like if you have multiple data items coming from different sources, whether to mention them in data source? So yeah. Yeah, so assuming if that is the question you have, yeah, definitely like say, for example, if your numerator comprises of multiple data items which are coming from multiple forms that you mentioned and also another thing that you have to take into account is if you are just looking at, say for example, if you're looking at a coverage indicator, which is formulated based on numerator may be coming from monthly period and denominator may be just annual population count or something like that. I feel even it is important for you to make that also as a node because otherwise what will happen is whoever who's trying to interpret, that person will have to make an assumption. So that's what we want to get rid of by having this data source or what most probably I think the data source would be the place that you can mention. The periodicity if it is relevant. Saurabh, you want to add anything? No, no specific comments. Right, okay. So I guess we can, yeah, thank you very much, Groupon. Nicely done. So maybe we'll give the chance to Group2 to present. Somebody from Group2, volunteers. Good morning. Good morning. This is Larry from Group2. So I will share my screen. But it's, let me just put a disclaimer. Right now it's an incomplete presentation, but... No problem. We all know like we didn't give you enough time. So no problem, please proceed. Okay, so we had agreed to cover the HIV ad coverage rate for the whole of training land. And I'm sorry, but then the visualization, as you can see, we tried to make the picture fit in there, but then you can barely make out what is being presented. But then I will walk you through the whole presentation. Now the objective of the visualization is to measure the performance of ad services delivery. So we figured high coverage would be indicative of a good service linkage between testing and the actual initiation on ART. And our data source is the HIV ART program monthly data set. The numerator we're using is the number of people who are actually on ART and the denominator is the number of people that tested HIV positive. So the related actions, we figured that if any of those districts records a rate which would be less than 60%, the administrator would be able to do that. The administrator is to check whether there's under reporting of initiations of people on ART. Also, it will be a good idea if they were to check the causes of leakages if they are actually leakages between testing and initiation. And well, the others, as I said, it's an incomplete presentation, but then if it happens to be in the blue, it will be greater than or equals to a hundred percent and it will be always best to maintain such efforts. The other legend sits 60% to 75, 75 to 89, 90 to 100%. It's always best to check whether there's any underreporting or if there are any opportunities for improvement. Thank you. That is group two's presentation. Right. Thank you, Larry. So any comments from others, other groups? Any comments from facilitators, Saurabh, Prabhuprishnan, and the other group members who are on ART, any comments from facilitators, Saurabh, Pramil? So while they prepare a few things, first thing is if it is more than a hundred for the actions, I mean, if it is a hundred percent, you can maintain the efforts, but if it is more than a hundred, then can you do something else? So in fact, this is why it may be, if you are thinking of some issue with data, if it is more than a hundred percent, then I feel it would be better if you put that under a separate legend, like I mean, more than a hundred, so that you don't touch the hundred mark because a hundred is okay, right? I mean, we are fine with it, but if it is a hundred and one, or maybe like you can even think, because in real life scenario, what happens is there may be some occasional discrepancies of data, like you may get, you may notice a hundred and one, a hundred and five things like that for a short span of time until your data is ready, like completed. So maybe some countries, like what they do is they tend to give some allowance for that and that's why they sometimes keep it, if it is more than a hundred, they know a hundred and twenty percent, then please, you need to check whether something is wrong. So that's one thing. And also like when you are commenting about the actions, you should always comment on the indicator and denominator both, right? Say for example, you can check whether ART initiation, there are issues, and also you can also check again whether there is some issue with the denominator, right? So that also is something that you can comment. Okay. The comments, yeah. Saurabh or Pramil or any other facilitators who's there? Okay, looks like there are no more comments. So thank you very much Larry and the group too for that presentation. So please stop sharing group three. Any volunteers? Hello, I will be presenting for... Yes, please share your screen. I'll just share my screen. Okay, so here you go. Yeah, we can see. The indicator that we have chosen is the HIV test possibility theory. So this is a bit straightforward. That's why I decided to use tables to visualize this. So the table is visualizing the HIV test possibility theory between two regions, the animal region and the protein region for the last 12 months. So the objective of visualization is first to compare the HIV test possibility theory in the two districts within the last 12 months. Here, measure the overall HIV test performance for you to be able to monitor HIV test progress in training line. So this is where we were able to get the data. The data source is HIV test group. The indicator is the HIV test possibility theory. The numerator HIV test positive denominator HIV test performed the period is the last 12 months. So regarding the related actions, we were not able to finish it, but this is what we were able to... This is what our group was able to identify. First one is if HIV positive, our positivity rate is greater than or equal to 50%. Review the numerator. If there are any anti-errors or outliers for the denominator, so target population plausible or it's the selected target population. Also, if the HIV positive case is greater than or equal to HIV test performed, we will divide the data with the source. So these are the action steps that we were able to identify. We are done in two months, we are done in two months. Right, thank you very much, Chan. Anybody who wants to comment on what was presented by group three? Are there groups? Yes, Chan. Yes, please proceed up. Are you? Yeah. Yes, please proceed, yes. Related actions are here, only data validation. So here, many parameters can be used. For example, the reader here shown, 16.5 and 12.5. Is it expected rate or it is higher than expected? It's just my observation, observation. Yes, so he was suggesting in case the test positivity, positive cases is more than test performed other than validating the data source. There are a few other actions you have to do. So yes, do it up. That's correct. Chanra, you wanted to comment? No. Yeah, sorry, okay. Anybody else? Right, so if not, I have some questions. Like first of all, what was the reason why you selected a pivot table for this visualization as opposed to maybe a chart or a map? Any reason why you decided on a pivot table? I think our group decided to make it more straight for instance, the previous team. So I think that's the reason why we selected a pivot table as a chart. Right, so okay, yeah, that's fair enough. But like, are there any inherent disadvantages of using pivot tables for visualization? So are there like major advantages? What do you think? Oh, like, I mean, I'm asking from the entire group three. My idea, I think if we present the visualize the event report, we can be the exact numerator and denominator and we can see and we can cross check that number on that. And we didn't show all categories, just only a few categories, region, animal, region, food region, so it's easy to visualize the table, I think. Yeah. Yeah, so you partly answered the next question I was going to ask. Like why you just selected test positives and test performed and not anything else? Yeah, so maybe what I understood is you wanted to give a better idea to the person who was seeing about the proper, I mean, like what constitutes this indicator. So they don't have to drill or maybe have a look at another visualization to understand how the numerators and denominators are performing because you can give the entire summary in one visualization. So that's the advantage of using the tabular visualization. But is there a disadvantage also by doing this visualization? Yeah, usually, as I saw, we can show as a column chart plus line, meaning that combine, combine together. But the default I saw your exercise visualize is the tab also that why we didn't change any of your format. We just copy and interpret of that visualize. OK. No, in case if you're just, I mean, not using a chart or map, we just want to proceed with the table. What additional modifications would you like to do in a table to make it more visually striking? Anything? I mean, anyone, any of you can think of a better some modification you can do this table? Hello. Yes, yes, Joe. I think another modification which can be done maybe to apply some more lenses which can make it a bit of eye catching. Yeah, exactly. I mean, rather than eye catching, it will be like it just strikes out the message. So maybe group three, another thing you could have done is you can apply a legend as he suggested to the table so that the background color changes, right? So if it is really less, you can make it red so that people I mean like because you don't have to just focus on the figures if you just put that. So that's the enhancement that you can do when you select a pivot table. Of course, you can take the advantages of pivot table and you can make it better by doing those site modifications. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK. So it's good that you took this visualization so that I could highlight this point. Any further comments, facilitators, participants, anyone? And one more thing like about the actions, always rather than data, I mean, I totally agree. You have to mention about actions related to data. You don't have to check whether there has been some any data entry errors or outliers. And target populations are correct. Like some public health interventions also you can mention, right? Assuming if these values, the data is correct. Then you also need to mention some public health interventions that you have to do if HIV test positive rate is really high, right? Because then you need to strengthen your preventive measures, right? And community awareness and things like that. So you can even categorize your actions based on what to do for data related or what to do as public health interventions, right? That's also something that you can think of. All right, thank you so much. Group 4. Thank you. Group 4, any volunteers? Yeah, good for our presentation on behalf of the audience. Please share your screen, yes. Sure, let me share my screen. Right, we can see. Good, please proceed. Yeah, for Group 4, we looked at the indicator HIV cascaded by gender last 12 months. We picked the charts on the column charts to the visualization using the column charts was what we picked. And for the objective of the visualization is for us to monitor and for monitoring HIV program effectiveness to test and then the treat policy. So in terms of the number of persons tested and number of persons that have been treated and as well as a number of people that have been retained in terms of them from those who are already been who are already on the air and see over a period of time and then in terms of the gender male female our source of data came from one. The HIV those who tested positive for HIV and persons who are living with HIV that are being enrolled newly on the ART and those also being retained over time. I mean, over the last 12 months within the within the treatment regime then also the gender because we needed to with the data for in terms of gender male female to be able to different get that visualization than the related action for us. What we looked at is if any gender HIV we're also looking at in terms of if any gender any of the gender that's tested positive is higher than so what we did within the group is that we kind of looked at and said, can we agree on them? A threshold, so okay, a threshold of one 25 within the last 12 months. So if any of the gender HIV positive is above one 25 and probably check for reasons why this is happening and then review the interventions that is ongoing in terms of treatments then also to monitor we also looked at monitoring the retention of persons living with HIV around the ART. If there is a retention, if there is a retention the number of persons who are being retained drops below a certain number within them within a month. In any of the gender we also looked at a situation where there needs to be an intervention there needs to be sorry, not intervene there needs to be like check within that why that is happening and see if there is anything that needs to be done in terms of looking at if on the public health perspective and also if those who are new on ART are less than 50% of those who tested positive will also feel that there needs to be a check on this to check for a medication and adherence if people are really adherent that if you test positive you need to be an ART so to check if people are actually adhering and all of that. Thank you. All right, thank you. So any comments from the participants, any groups, any other groups want to comment? Anything from the facilitators? Right, I have a few comments. The first thing is like now when you're just looking at this table, the data source maybe you can label it because like people may get confused like, okay like whether these are data elements or indicators because it all depends on how you configure your instance in general. So if your end users are mostly used to seeing you know like indicators more, they will always look at data elements indicator labels. So maybe you can just mention these are all data elements. So you can just put a header and mention these are data elements so that they know. And the other thing is like now this is an example where you have used data elements as opposed to indicators. So I mean, do you prefer this visualization of data element? Does it really highlight the message that you want to convey or the particular objective that you want to attain? Is a data element a better visualization or you would prefer to have an indicator instance? So like instead of like, what are your thoughts about that? Because I'm not saying which one, I mean, it is wrong or right, but what do you think about it, Rufo? I think indicators are better for the data source than the elements. I think you better describe, visualize what we want to, what we want to see. Yeah, the thing, I mean, it really depends on what you want to show. Say for example, if comparison of numbers between regions or like orders, if you just want to show it at national level, just like here in training land, you just want to show the numbers at national level, then it is perfectly fine. But if your objective is to go for a comparison, then you might have an issue. We were actually doing national and gender disaggregation. Yeah, exactly. So that's like, this is fine because like, you are just giving a national level figure of each of the values. Yeah. Then my next question is like, would you have opted for a map over visually, over a chart or a chart is just fine for the objective that you want to cater? For the gender disaggregation, which was our focus, I think the chart based column chart visualization, we picked it, we decide it was better because it clearly shows the disaggregation of people on HIV living with HIV on ART in respect to, with respect to gender disaggregation, like we can see the green and we can see people living with HIV tested positive. We can see that the females are more than the males. And then those who retain on ART females are also more. And we can be able to clearly see that females, the increasing rate in female positivity and the increasing adherence to female has a related to their drug and also initiation, drug initiation. So with respect to gender females, the values are hard in all cases. Right. So based on what you want to convey to the end user, right, gender disaggregation and the values at national level you try to highlight, this may be a better visualization as opposed to a map because then you may have troubles. I mean, like you are trying to convey multiple parameters here, right? But in maps, it's usually when you just highlight one factor, map may be a better thing. And also want to make a comparison across the areas, then maps are much suited. So for this one, yes, I agree with you. And then as a third action point, you mentioned PLHIV in your own ART less than 50%. So this less than 50% value can you interpret from this chart? Because what I mostly see is the, I mean, the Y-axis is data elements, right? The raw values. So the 50%. Okay. The 50% was something we actually just formulated to create a scenario. We created a 50% as a threshold that for instance, if people living with HIV knew on ART, it's less than 50%, then we should check for adherence or initiation. That means that we have a high number of positivity, but then we have far less people that have been initiated on the drug and even far less that are adhering to the drug. So the 50% was something we assumed we formulated just to make a conclusion. Right, so what I was actually saying is because from this visualization, obtaining that 50% is not straightforward, right? Here we have the Y-axis is numbers and not the percentage. No, no, no. Yeah. It wasn't based on the numbers on the Y and the X-axis. Like for instance, now we have a female positivity test in 137,000 plus. So we are saying 50% of that number. Okay. So yeah. Yeah, what I was actually trying to highlight is there is some calculation the end user will have to do, right? By looking at the visualizer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We never had a sound or two. No, no, that's okay. So this is something you can think about, like are we allowing the end users to interpret it that way just by having a visual look at the chart or maybe we can be a bit more specific. I mean, something for you to think about. Right. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you. Shall we move to the group number five? Group five. Anybody from group five? Saurav, we assigned people to group five, right? Was there nobody? Yeah, the members were there, but then I tried asking the topic or the indicator and did not get a response. So I assume they were, I mean, the members were too silent. Yeah. But we don't mind if you can share the screen so that we can interpret. Here we go. Yes, please. Okay, I guess Anupam shared the screen. Are you preferring to stay silent or you can unmute and present? You are currently muted, Anupam, right? So anybody else from the group mind presenting what you have? Yes. Yes, now we can hear. Please. Hello, is my screen visible? Yes, it is visible. But it's not visible to me now actually. Yeah. Is it visible? Yeah, for us it's visible. I think... Yeah, okay, okay. So I just use a indicator for our RMLCHA. That is the skill delivery coverage for the last quarter. So I prefer it to be presented as a map. So the objective is to measure the number of deliveries being attended by the skilled manpower. And because we want to, I mean, because the coverage is indicative of access of trained manpower to the pregnant mothers and higher the coverage by skilled manpower, the lower will be the maternal neonatal deaths. So that is why it is important to measure this indicator. And the sources will be the RMLCHA quarterly DHS2 dataset and the numerator will be number of deliveries attended by skilled birth attendants and denominator will be number of live births. And related actions, according to the map, which is... So if the grid is red there, less than 40% is... We'll review whether the... I mean, numerator, if there is...  If there is target population is correct or is the target population either correctly enrolled or are the districts enrolled under the RMLCHA program, maybe the districts which are having less than 40% coverage, they are enrolled in the RMLCHA program. And if the skilled delivery coverage is green, the darker portion, it was showing more than 75%. So we need to sustain the efforts and we need to strengthen them further. If it is light, green, light yellow or dark yellow, it means the coverage is less than, still less than 75%. But then we have to check whether there is underreporting or is skilled attendants available, are there skilled attendants available in the area? Are traditional birth attendants been trained in that area? And are people ready to get their deliveries from the newly trained birth attendants? Because many of the time people prefer deliveries from their traditional attendants only and they don't prefer the newly trained birth tender. So we would like to look into these points. Thank you. All right, thank you very much. It's, that's really complete. Any comments from others? So I don't know Pramil, you want to comment? No, I think to me this, this looks quite complete, yeah. From this visualization. Yeah. And I see the skilled delivery covering. So, there is the only indicator skilled delivery covering. What is the other one indicator? But what are the parameters? I cannot understand it, so. You were breaking. I couldn't get it. I couldn't get it. Can you explain what, what was he trying to complain? And what are the others, what are the other? I couldn't get it. What are the other? What are the other? What are you saying? But what are the other parameters? Field delivery covering and which are not, that means that are not field delivery coverage, right? Or other? Yes. Okay. Actually when we see deliveries, actually we see whether it is institutional or it is home-based. So many of the time in home-based deliveries we look for skilled delivery coverages. And because in institution, we obviously are getting skilled manpower is there. But in home deliveries and sometimes in the rural areas, so people don't get to go to the institutions for the delivery. So we would like to see what are the deliveries which are being conducted by the skilled birth attendance. So that is what we want to see in the area. In the presence. Hello. Yeah, okay. Just, I have just two comments. First thing is about the objective because this is the good coverage which is an indicator. So I was just wondering like, because you mentioned to measure the number of deliveries being attended by the skilled manpower. Maybe, I don't know whether you can revert to, because we are not showing the, because we may have another visualization which may be only show the deliveries, the data element. So I'm not sure whether you can rename it so that it's not the numbers that you are seeing. So you want me to write the proportion of deliveries being attended by skilled? No, no, no. Yeah, I'm just suggesting... Or the percentage. Yeah, I mean, maybe you can, I'm just mentioning few areas you can modify if it is written. So maybe you can mention proportion rather than numbers because we may have another visualization where you're actually showing the data element value. That is one. And the other thing... Maybe, maybe, maybe. Yeah. And also about coverage if it is less than 40, just like, I mean, some of the actions that you have suggested for this third category, I mean, between 75 to 40, those may still be a number, right? So right now it's about data related parameters which are there. So you can also add this public health related parameters also to that section. So those two things I had. Yes, yes. And then it's a very complete framework. Nicely done. Thank you, thank you. Right. Shall we move on to the last group, group six? Yes, please. I will be sharing my screen, just a minute. Please do, yes. Is it visible now? Yes, it is visible. Okay. For our indicator, we selected MR1 coverage. So our objective of the visualization was to measure the overall performance of delivering the MR1 vaccine. Here we felt that the MR1 vaccine coverage is indicative of the utilization of immunization services by the community. And so a high coverage indicates high utilization, whereas a low coverage indicates that there are a lot of dropout children. And hence that there is a low utilization of health services by the population. So that's why it is important. For the data source, it was the immunization program monthly DHIS2 data set. The numerator is the number of MR1 doses given to children less than one year. And the denominator is the total population of children less than one year of age. Because this first dose is typically given at nine months of age. That is why in both the numerator and denominator, we have the less than one year present. Then for the related actions, if MR1 coverage is greater than 125%, then the actions would be to review the numerator as well as to review the denominator and cross-check the data. If MR1 coverage is green, that is greater than 90%, then everything is great. And the directive would be to sustain the efforts. And now if MR1 coverage was less than 90%, then we would need to check for various aspects, whether there was underreporting, whether the community is aware of the importance of vaccination, whether any recent AFI has occurred in the community. And hence there is a resistance or reluctance in the community for vaccination. If there have been any significant stockout of the vaccine, that's leading to the low coverage. And then we would also have some programmatic actions for the immunization teams and the staff in the respective district's facilities. It would be to identify all the dropout children in their respective catchment areas and mobilize them for the next immunization session. And where necessary, they would be allowed to plan additional sessions for selected areas in a campaign mode in order to improve the MR1 coverage rapidly. That's all, thank you. Right, thank you very much. And I especially like the actions part where you have been really going into details. So it's really good group six. And obviously I know like all of you, in some of the groups who presented initially, they didn't have that much of time to prepare also. So I'm just being fair by all the groups. But this is really nice, the actions component. I have just one comment, but before that, anybody else who want to comment? Looks like no comments from participants. Yeah, because this is really complete nicely done. Just one comment I have, maybe in the objective, you can mention that you're trying to achieve a cross-district comparison, maybe delivering MR1 vaccine across district. Because otherwise, I mean, if we don't include one query I have is like, why we select a map? So maybe we even selected another type of visualization. So one reason maybe so that we can show this geographic comparison, because the map is really valid here because you are just only selecting one parameter, which is one indicator. So what you're trying to do, the map is the ideal. But maybe you can also, you try to do a cross-district. Sure, sure, thank you. I can modify the objective accordingly to measure the overall performance of delivering MR1 vaccine and to compare the MR1 coverage across districts. Or there's MR1 vaccine across district, something like that. Okay, thank you. Thank you so much. No problem, right? Any more comments from anyone? Right. Okay then, so thank you very much everyone. It was a really good effort from all the groups. I mean, I was initially thinking like we might not be able to do all these presentations given the short span of time we have. But like I suppose today we had really good collaboration between the years, between participants in your groups as well as the facilitators. So I hope it was a worthy effort. And I think we can conclude the section on interpretations. So the plan from here onwards, of course I have to tell the word of the day, but other than that, we have one other section that is remaining for the day, which is implementation considerations, which of course is a bit of a, I mean, sharing experience, which I can share the generic recommendation where we can also go for a brief discussion about issues that you have and your experience. And also we have one ungraded assignment, MCQ type assignment also for the interpretations. So what we can do now is like, we can take a short break and we can also give you some time to do the ungraded exercise. Whereas we can have maybe five, 10 minutes short break and start the presentation on the implementation considerations. Finish it often, give you time to do the ungraded exercise later. Anybody who opposed the latter idea that is like anyone who doesn't like the idea of doing the ungraded assignment last after my next presentation, just let me know. If not, I will do the presentation next on implementation considerations and we'll do the ungraded assignment last. Please let me know if anybody doesn't like that idea. All right, okay. Yeah, I know like most of you like that idea, but if anyone doesn't like it, fine, right, okay. So I guess the majority likes the idea of doing the implementation considerations so that you can do the ungraded exercise leisurely. But still, I think we need to take a small break. So what we will do is we will meet in exactly 10 minutes at 335 local time in Indian Street, we will meet again. And then at that time, I will mention the word of the day. Thank you.


the Yankees win the season opener in DC. Four to one is the final good hitting by Aaron Judge, Giancarlo Stanton. And Garrett Cole, he had to work through a few things early before he settled in. He did, Bob. You look at the line, and it's five strong, five solid innings, but Garrett Cole is a great pitcher for a reason. You're not going to have your greatest stuff every night. From interviewing Garrett Cole in spring training, he said, about a third of the time, I'll have my best stuff. A third of the time, I'll have some suspect stuff. And then a third of the time, I'll be right there in the middle. And I got to figure things out. I think tonight was one of those nights, Bob, where he figured it out. He fell behind 10 of the 18 batters that he faced, but yet he still kept the nationals in check. The Yankees gave him enough offense. And I think as a pitcher, you're proud of a night like this. First of all, he gets his first win as a Yankee. He begins the Garrett Cole era with a W. But it's also a night where you had to work and you had to grind. And I think Cole showed the Yankees. That's the kind of pitcher he is. Well, he also had a 2-0 lead in his back pocket right after Giancarlo Stanton had that first standing home run. So that had to feel good knowing that the adrenaline was going to be pumping a little bit. We talked about Stanton throughout the summer camp, Bob, and how he was trying to find his rhythm and trying to find his timing at the plate. And when he did Zoom interviews, he kept saying, I'm getting closer. I feel like my swing is getting to where I need it to be. And then he begins the season against Max Scherzer, a future Hall of Fame pitcher, and hits a ball 450 feet. So I would say that, yes, Giancarlo Stanton's swing is exactly where he wanted it to be tonight. All right.


You ask we answer welcome to can this marriage be saved where we go up against common relationship problems and help you determine If this relationship should stay or go Hi, everybody and welcome to this week's episode of can this marriage be saved Um, I'm Riffa Slatkin and it's almost like in and together. We're here with Laura Doyle Who I'm gonna read her wonderful introduction because she's very well known and I want to make sure I get all of her amazing accomplishments Um To you Laura Doyle's marriage was in trouble after five years Her husband had become distant and seemed checked out of their relationship Preferring to watch watching TV to making love. There were frequent fights that ended with tense silences Marriage counseling made their problems worse each session seemed to reinforce the feeling that she and her husband were just too far apart Desperate to avoid divorcing the man. She loved Laura tried something different She started to talking to women who'd been happily married for more than 15 years what she discovered shocked her Everything she had heard in marriage counseling was wrong Laura realized there are basic truths that can help women maintain loving intimate marriages So she developed the six intimacy skills helping over a hundred and fifty thousand women in 27 countries She is a New York Times bestselling author of several relationship books and her newest title is first kill all the marriage counselors Modern-day secrets to being desired cherished and adored for life. So Laura, thank you so much. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me I hope I'm safe here When I first you know my husband's a marriage counselor when I first heard your book title I was not familiar with Shakespeare and I was just like whoa, you know, it was like shocking and then I had hurt I had um with that article we were you were interviewed in Ami magazine You know, so it interviewed me about the about Marriage counseling go wrong with what to look after for you know to avoid bad therapy and so I finally understood Also the Shakespeare reference. Did you come up with that title or did your book publisher? No, I came up with it So apologies But I it was really just out of my own Experience of course personally finding that marriage counseling really kind of contributed to our problems But also in my position as a relationship coach over the last 17 years I really had a front row seat to a lot of women's the inside of their Relationships and just hurt so many, you know story after story of yeah, I went and the marriage counselor said to get divorced So it was really kind of horrifying to see all the damage that was getting done But you know the title it was you know, I didn't want to to shock people that was part of the intention But I was also trying to be playful. It was a little bit of a joke. It was Shakespeare It was a joke when he said to kill all the lawyers So and I think humor is a great way to make people think about things differently and if things are going to change We have to think about them differently Absolutely, and that's really why we wanted to invite you on the show We've never really had a guest on our podcast, but we wanted to have you Because you are bold and brave in talking to women about taking responsibility, right? Yes, themselves and we almost you know Sometimes we're a little more gentle in our approach with asking people to take responsibility And what we really liked about your approach is that you're really bold and you say it like it is like women If you're going to constantly nag and shame and blame your husband He's going to have an affair or crisis or whatever Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think for me, I was so clueless It's so sad when I think about my earlier version of myself and my marriage I just did not realize I was being disrespectful and I didn't I really thought he was the problem He was the one that needed to improve and it was hopeless because he wasn't trying to improve He didn't want to work on the relationship. He didn't want to talk to me. So From that point of view, I had just zero power. I couldn't begin to create What I have now, you know, the the kind of connection and playfulness and passion that we have now So for me, it was just very empowering to learn like Women are the keepers of the relationship and if if I wanted things to change It was up to me. I have great power and just like with Spider-Man. I have great responsibility So I believe we women do have responsibility to learn the skills that contribute to intimacy and we didn't get those sometimes You know, a lot of a lot of women are from broken homes I'm from a broken home. So the recipe I watched was a failed recipe and We didn't have relationships 101 where I went to school. So for me It's just the most basic thing that every woman needs because we are all going to want to have the kind of relationships where our husband is seeking out our company and He's just my husband just knocks himself out to do things to delight me, you know Make me happy the other recently was he pulled out his phone and he was like, oh, don't move and he starts taking pictures of me Like I'm a supermodel Wow, so I'm unspeakably grateful for that outcome And I just I just know that any woman could have that if she's married to a good man And she gets trained in skills that contribute to intimacy Just like if you get trained to drive a car or make an omelet, you're gonna have a better time With doing those those things. Yes, and I know we both work to do that very much So on our mission to educate people to do this So I'm a really Exclusively works with couples together and I like that for those whose spouses are not willing to you know work on it together You help women one-on-one And we you know one of the things when people call us and they say, you know What can I do my my husband doesn't want to see the husband or the wife? But a lot of times it's the woman that calls a book my husband doesn't want to come To counseling so we encourage them to do whatever they can to work on themselves and become aware of what they're doing to contribute to their relationship But I just picking up on one thing you said that if they're married to a good man Do you find that there are situations where no matter what the wife does The husband is not going to react in a way that is in a successful way Well, there's very few but yes, of course there are well for me What I say is safety comes first and if you're not safe in your marriage then It's I say it's a divorce. I endorse so if he is physically abusive or if he is just chronically relentlessly Unfaithful, he's not capable of being faithful Or if he has an active addiction to drugs alcohol or gambling to where to where you're not safe Then those are the situations where I cannot promise great results Because intimacy requires safety Right definitely. I mean you talk right. Yeah, I mean we're talking about I mean I've it's those those elements but also the emotional safety as well And I think that you know one when one spouse Tries to make their relationship more safe even emotionally safe, you know cutting out the criticism or the nagging and the blaming That creates that's that's what it allows for that ripple effect that that's how it allows for the husband to Respond in a different way because when he's not feeling threatened. He can actually show up I couldn't agree with you more. That is just the wisest thing what you just said there because Emotional safety intimacy does have to have emotional safety to thrive absolutely and it's funny I do have a lot of women saying well I had to have to divorce because he's emotionally abusive or verbally abusive and what we see is that when she Institutes the intimacy skills and brings respect and vulnerability and really which is inappropriate control and and the other skills that that that Emotional or verbal abuse clears up. So it's really not the intractable problem that it appears to be it's actually Something that she's contributing to Unwinningly she doesn't even realize she's being disrespectful. Just like I didn't have any concept that I was being disrespectful Yeah, I was interrupting him. I was rolling my eyes. I was contradicting him, but I wasn't disrespectful. I just can see But as soon as I made it emotionally safe on my side of the street, of course He responded to me very differently in a much better more tender, you know, his natural desire to make me ridiculously happy Returned just like all husbands have that desire that I call it the hero gene to make their wives happy but they if they have to defend themselves against her ongoing criticism and complaints and Disrespect then that's gonna supersede his hero gene coming out. Do you get a lot of flack for? Talking to women about taking responsibility for this Well, I do I do because and I think I think part of the problem is as As with my marriage, I was already so exhausted and I felt like I had worked so hard to save my marriage And I had worked hard, but I was doing the wrong work You know, I was like trying to have a state of the union address with them all the time on the couch like let's talk about our relationship which is Just let's say every husband know he's in trouble and he just wants to get away And it's not gonna lead to him saying how beautiful and special and wonderful I am which is what I really wanted to have happened So I was exhausted and when I I think when women hear like, you know, I was delivering it I'm like hey great news You are the keeper of the relationship and you have all the power and they hear it as like I have to do all the work and he's not going to do anything and it's not that at all It's that They were doing too much I was doing too much and if you do less if you relax if you let your husband Take care of you if you stop acting like his mother if you stop buying his socks and underwear and making his doctor's appointments You're gonna have a lot more time for yourself and to do things that you enjoy so I mean one of the first places we start usually is I'm like, yeah, stop, you know do less and Receive more from him and receive it graciously and gratefully and that is that makes a huge difference right there Wow, cuz ultimately the husband wants the husband wants to give to the wife And it's just if you don't let give him that opportunity then that muscle kind of Yeah Yeah, it does and it is amazing We women really can have a hard time with that sometimes I struggled with it at first I'm I got better habits now. Thankfully, but I mean my husband would I'd wake up in the morning You know with bad hair and he'd say you look beautiful and I'd be like, no, I don't shut and stop it My hair is a mess or you know, I just totally contradict like even a simple compliment. I couldn't receive it Well, he would yeah, he would say hey, I want to take you out to dinner I'd be like I already defrosted the meat, you know, like that's not practical like we can't do that So I was just rejecting him right and left without realizing and then I'd be mad. He wasn't very romantic. Oh, I love that I know Harvill Hendricks slow mo's an amago therapist and Dr. Harvill Hendricks who's the founder of wrote a book called receiving love Because he found that he could teach right correct me if I'm wrong How did that book? Well that at some point in the relationship Even all the great things you can do to work on the relationship if if one person is incapable of receiving love then All the good doesn't actually penetrate. You have to be a you know a receptacle to be able to receive that love from your partner and That sometimes, you know, you can make a lot of effort, but if there's no receiver on the other end It just doesn't hit the mark and you still can wind up in that same frustrating place I think he was seeing a lot of people unable to actually receive the love that was finally being expressed And then his own relation. I mean it was based on his own relationship to he brought the book Yeah, that's right. But I think that you know what you're saying about the Emotional abuse because sometimes we talk about this and people get really upset. I think coming from a woman It's a little bit more powerful that you're saying that that you've seen how It can stop by by you just changing and obviously, you know, there's no excuse You know, there's no excuse for for hurtful behavior But there is is a context for it and if we can change the context then the behavior can change It doesn't mean that the marriage needs to be written off or that this person is a you know And I'm you know emotionally abusive. It's the one once you throw out the word abuse and even in therapists They get very nervous nervous and they said how can you say that it can be fixed and how can you? Even say it can there's a way that way out. So yeah, absolutely if I'm back one of the interesting things that I've discovered in my journey is that women are actually the only ones that use the phrase emotional abuse never heard a man say that and What you know, and I've inquired What's interesting and here's how I The lens that I look at this through is that when I was first married. I was a rageaholic I mean, I really would rip into my husband and just try to tear him down as much as I cut up one side down the other Say all the hurtful mean awful things that I could and I'm not proud of that obviously But I am happy to say that through practicing the intimacy skills my urge My compulsion and do that was lifted and I haven't had a rage episode in gosh, you know, 17 or 18 years So I'm happy about that But I knew from my own marriage that I had been an emotional abuser, right? If you want to use that phrase and my husband never would even refer to it that way He would just be like, yeah, sometimes my wife gets mad at me I Totally different phrasing for it And so that was part of the light bulb for me was hearing women say he's emotionally abusive And then I would also and I remember one woman in particular said yeah My husband called me this name and that name in the other name and I can't even repeat the names on the show There were that and I was like kind of shocked like oh my gosh I'm gonna do with this is when I very first started out and And then I just kind of paused because I was trying to think of a response and she said so I told him He was a blobby I was like oh, it's a two-way street. They're emotionally abusing each other and Just like with little kids, right? You know one kid a punch the other one and the kid will go hey He punched me and it's like oh, yeah, you just punched him too, but they're not a ten They're not focused on that they're just focused on the pain of that they just got hit and so and because we women We are I think I can say this we are more emotional because They did a study at the University of Toronto recently and they discovered that So I'm glad you guys are sitting down for this that women are more emotional than men, right? So there's research money well-spent Because of that, I think these things do have a different impact on us as women then then maybe they do on the men And so they're a little more We say fair, but right there's a little more like oh, yeah, she was mean to me and we're like he abused me And we make it a little more dramatic and kind of bring in some I caught any team needless emotional turmoil about those kinds of fights. They are you know, I Was a joke about how there's no such thing as as you know people say you have to learn how to fight fair Well, I think it's just a thing. I mean that that's what they call it fighting, right? You're trying to you're trying to be destructive and tear down that other person in that moment And it's not it's not good. It's not right. I'm not productive. It's not productive Of course not productive at all and it doesn't keep the end goal in mind Which is to connect rather than you know to be in a state of disconnect So it's like what's your end goal? Is it to dump and be right or is it to ultimately connect and build a great relationship? And I think also just society, you know, like I noticed every single TV show always has sarcasm with regards to marriage And the husband is mean to his wife or the wife is me And it's like funny. So I think also we don't necessarily realize what becomes just a typical Joke we don't realize how damaging that is like, you know, our girlfriends going out for drinks to kind of get away They all start talking and dumping about their spouses. Like that's not you know Something that's gonna help them right in the long run No, male bashing is incredibly destructive and I didn't really see that in my early marriage I thought the same thing like oh, it's funny.  Men are immature. Men are lazy, you know It's hilarious. They're sloppy um, and uh It really is it, you know spending that evening with my girlfriend's male bashing Just maybe come home and think ew right like he's Why would I want to be married to this and I am married to this and I'm I'm really grateful for that now So keeping my focus on the things that I want to have increased Versus the things that I don't want more of has really made a big difference too just in terms of Refocusing my view on all the positive attributes and things that I fell in love with about my husband Gosh, I just can't say enough about that. I feel like that has really been The golden ticket into the kind of marriage that I wanted to have when I said I do that's amazing. It's Just we just really commend you for just taking your experience and putting it into something that people could you know And having faith that people can change and the expectation that women, you know and men And make this difference. I think right because a lot of people as you said in the beginning that We experience that we get calls all the time for people who've had marriage counseling going wrong Let's someone I had a couple that said you're a seventh therapist No, and and luckily they're still around because as you said a lot of people a lot of times people encourage people to get divorced They're not trained. I mean, they're not trained or not or they don't necessarily believe in In marriage or you know, let's decide whether you should stay together or not without even even seeing Yeah, so it's very it can be very destructive So it's good that you know, we need more people out there Who are giving messages of hope that things can be different and that there is a better way And also being brave enough to really call out those You know therapists that are working with couples and making the marriage and destroying the marriage, which You know, we've done but it's hard because being that he is a therapist, you know, therapists don't like I can see where that would make you really unpopular People like that the therapists all complain that people I got tons of emails from people that oh, this is exactly what's happened to me. Unfortunately People relate to it, but there are good therapists out there But there are a lot of people, you know, you want to go to somebody who knows As expertise and is going to help you reach your goal Yeah, absolutely. We we like the concept of a marriage mentor So and since we only serve women we don't serve couples We what we do is uh, I saw all the all the coaches in my organization, for instance They have had their own transformation. So they have gone from Being on the verge of divorce or really just kind of a dead marriage where they live under the same roof But there's no emotional connection and passion Just that that wonderful companionship that you get from a good marriage and they have Turned it into Something that is worth having and worth worth bragging about I guess I'll say and so they're able to say, you know Here's what I did and it's real specific along those lines, but You know, I I agree that I know that marriage counselors Mostly got into the business to help people and they mean well and they have good intentions Um, and so it is it is tragic that so many are not trained And then um, one of the things that I hear about that just breaks my heart every time is this couple will go into marriage counseling And then the counselor will invite them Just say what's wrong and the woman goes through and says well, I don't think I can trust him He's not he can't You know and she goes through all these things are incredibly disrespectful in front of a stranger And she has just dug her hole so much deeper just by doing that right like all the things It's almost like the equivalent of the man saying well, I don't think I love her and I never really did She would just crushed and she doesn't see that she's crushing him just as much By doing that kind of thing. So that's one example of the things that we hear about I'm sure you would never do but Unfortunately some poorly trained therapists are doing that and it's just a most damaging thing So everybody that's listening don't do that. Don't go to therapy and say everything is wrong with your husband in front of a stranger And that's that's the importance of having a safe process that really makes sure that they can express What they need to but in a way that is respectful and and safe so that the other person doesn't feel shamed Yeah, exactly One of the things we do is encourage them not to even tell their husbands That they are learning the intimacy skills and that if they have any complaints They could bring that to us and we'll hold that for them And then what they're the face that they're showing you know what they're bringing to the husband is The action of respect right just like love is a decision respect is a decision And so we'll hold the things that you know are grossing out about your husband or that you can't believe he's doing And when you show up to him, you're just showing that respect making that decision And what would you say to husbands who?  So that'd be good for them. The rest of it is really for the watch So it sounds like um women can work with you and your coaches one on one. Is that how you do it? Yes, we um, we have a number of Different ways that we serve women. So one of them is definitely private coaching We talked to someone who has already transformed her marriage and has gone through extensive training to become a relationship coach in the style of The surrendered wife and first kill all the marriage counselors where we really um, we believe that every woman is really the expert on her own life So we don't really have any Advice it sounds kind of funny. We don't have any authority to tell her what she should do But we just have our own experience to share and some skills that you know, she'd like to learn them We can assist her in applying them. We can encourage her We um, we stand for her marriage and for it being great and amazing and exhilarating Um, and we listen and bear witness and we also acknowledge her for her progress But we're not really there to tell her what to do So I think we're sometimes the therapist model might be right They are encouraging them to stay married or not stay married, you know, like maybe she get divorced We don't have that already. You just empower them to get in touch with what they Want to do and be the best second for their marriage. Exactly Can you briefly share with the our listeners the six your six intimacy skills? I mean, I know it's uh There's a lot you wrote a whole book about it. So But Summarize the main points No, I want everyone to know what they are actually so the first one is about um replenishing your spirit by practicing Good self-care by which I don't mean eight hours of sleep and five fruits and vegetables and 30 minutes of cardio What I mean is doing at least three things a day for your own joy Like the way a child is attracted to a ball These are the things that just make you so you can't stop smiling So for me like I love to play volleyball. Um, I I love to Walk and but uh, it might just be a hot bath. I love to take an app or talk to my girlfriend on the phone or my sister So it can be really simple things But um, just really carving out the time for you so that you're not just always giving to everyone else and then becoming depleted And exhausted and thinking your husband's just the biggest idiot on the planet Which is what happens if you don't practice self-care Um, so that's number one We have to do that one in order to do any of the other intimacy skills because you won't have the energy if you don't do that one So number two is to relinquish inappropriate control a surrender wife doesn't um, she knows she can't control anyone else So she doesn't tell her husband how to drive or what to do at work or um, how to dress or what to you know eat Because she focuses on her own happiness instead and that in turn really improves the intimacy And number three is about restoring respect Um by um expecting the best outcome so instead of um expecting him to mess up You are holding out an expectation for your husband that he is um wise and uh thoughtful and competent And your uh, your words and your deeds match those expectations The next one is a receiving graciously We talked about that one a little bit about receiving gifts compliments and help with just a simple Thank you and a smile instead of you shouldn't have or i'll just do it myself Um, and that is the essence of femininity by the way a receptive Woman is very feminine and she that makes her very attractive at like 10x is your attraction level And then the next one is about revealing your heart, which is um choosing vulnerability Even when you're angry you're actually if you're angry at someone you're intimate with you are also hurt So you may choose the hurt by saying ouch or you may express um, you might say like i miss you Instead of you never spend any time with me. It's a much more vulnerable approach And the final one may be the most powerful intimacy skill of all is about refocusing your view With gratitude. So it's really focusing on the things that you want instead of the things that you don't want and um, and here we have the power of the I call it the spouse fulfilling prophecy, which is really the change your husband skill if there is one because uh, uh, we find that if you um, you know a lot of times a wife will say He always loses his temper, but no one always does anything. So um, you could just just Honestly focus on the times that he doesn't lose his temper and say you never lose your temper, right? So it's just about um choosing the one that serves you instead of the one that doesn't Beautiful Well, laura. Thank you so much. We it's it's we're definitely gonna encourage that um, women it's like your blog and your material is just such great Regular reading to do in order to encouragement. Yeah In order right to encourage and create this marriage You know of your dreams and it's it's like it's it was just a really nice um Change for us to have you on our podcast because really we're we're very selected Like like I said, we've never had anybody on because of the reason that many times, you know What another marriage professional does is not in line with our Very serious value that marriage comes first. We never ever encourage divorce Shlomo never tells a couple what to do to stay to go. It's not about that So we're very cautious by you know, what we Right selective With my what we put out there because we really do believe that there is a lot of information out there that can be more harmful And helpful So we wanted to get your message out um and share it and it's helpful for you know for people who are Don't have a willing, you know willing spouse You don't have to do it on their own And even if your spouse is willing to work on it, it can only enhance it because My one person changes in the relationship. It has an effect on the other Yeah, well, first of all, I'm so honored That you had me on I really I'm just I'm flattered. I can't believe that I got invited to you to be on So, um, that's really one of marriage counselors focusing on the positive being able to receive Um, you know looking trying to catch your spouse doing something right as opposed to looking at the negative and Yeah, I mean it's all very powerful and these little these they're little things but I mean they're big they're little things that are really big things because they can have a profound impact as you've shared your own story and With us that it makes a huge difference. So you know, those who are listening who don't think that You change doing these, you know little changes can make a big difference It can make a huge difference in your relationship. We've seen it. We do believe that Yeah, I mean if I can do it believe me. I was a complete mess Anybody can do it. Oh, that's so inspiring. Well, Laura, thank you so much and we are excited to share this information Oh, yes, and the website is Go ahead. Well, I have a special, uh, webinar going right now that, um, you know, I invite You to uh to attend and you can get it at get cherished.com slash Um, can this marriage be saved? Sorry, get cherished.com Slash can this marriage be saved and it's called get how to get respect reconnect and rev up your love life And it does do an in-depth it's an in-depth Study on the first intimacy. Well, the second answer is you still really pushing Inappropriate control it gives you really specific cheat phrases to use with your husband to get a much better response Awesome. We look forward to sending people there. Laura. Thank you again, and we'll talk to you soon All right. Bye-bye. It's gonna pleasure We hope you've enjoyed listening to today's topic We'll be back again to focus on another topic that is sure to help you with your marriage for any questions or concerns Please email us at info at the marriage restoration project.com with best wishes for your relationship success


Oh, Cisco. I saw a documentary. Don song, right? Yeah. You know, don't like a Chuck. What? What? I was like, what? All night long. All right. Let me see that. But at one point what they say, living, it was living a little bit, right? Yeah. So Cisco knew the guy who wrote that song. It wasn't, was it Ricky Martin? Ricky Martin? It wasn't Ricky Martin. He was just a performer of it, but he knew the guy who wrote it. So he thought he was going to go ahead and get a clearance before whatever reason. He forgot to do it before the song actually came out. When the song came out, right? Oh, and it started performing like it was performing. Man, of course they hit them up, but that that line that got repeated three times throughout the entire song, living in Villaloca, bro, they said that that songwriter owned and made more money from the song than everybody else combined. That's crazy. Like the Cisco, the producers, all that. So that has to be from impact. That's my only argument. Like, how can you justify such a, something that's literally, when you look at it objectively, a small part of the song, how do you quantify that? It must be, oh, the impact. And if you gauge it, I don't know what time, let me look at when living in Villaloca came out, because there also might have been a hot song at the time. You know what I mean? It had a certain, all right. So that was 1999. And then the song came out. Wait a minute. Oh, it came out of 1999. Oh, sure. Dang. So yeah, that thing was fresh. But he tried it then, bro. He really risked it. Yeah, he risked it. He should have got it before, clear beforehand. Man. So that's that right there, again, goes to impact. Yeah, because the impact included, I could understand what the ones are saying. No, I could, I could get that because I will feel that way if, if I, my part of the song was the most memorable part of the song.  I could, I could understand it then, but I do think the overall notion of equality across the room does probably make the room work harder. Right. And look, to be fair, I think that objectively speaking and looking at how things played out, that song could have did damn well, probably the same without that line. However, in that time, it was highly arguable, right, to say that this has that level of impact. So I get it. It's arguable.  It's no way he would have said that if that song didn't come out. That's a good point, bro. Like a Black guy was never been saying, you know what I mean? Like never been saying that song. So, yeah. So impact has to have some, I'm assuming impact. I mean, outcome on how they judge it in court and things like that, when it goes that far. But, but man, I mean, I think this is just a person, my person basis or how people are willing to go about it. It seems like I know quite a few producers who have a similar relationship to this, because they work together so much, you're like, one of these things going to hit at some point, you know what I mean? And we don't know which one's going to hit. We don't know which one's going to get recorded to, but we just keep working. And if you want it, we get, they bust down every sentence is somewhat similar producers. If y'all are in any of those circles that are pretty free, and you can kind of trust and move like that, let us know about, but we do know if you have a circle like that, that can move like that, that you trust. Man, it makes creativity flow so much easier. All right, not having to deal with the business in that way. Now you might knock somebody outside of your circle over the head. I think that's the more realistic way to have it. I got my circle, you bust it down even outside that circle. It is what it is just like the Mikos, right? Three ways. It don't matter if a buddy got left off a bat and booze. You know what I mean? It's like we bust it down equal. We take care of the family. It is what it is. So I get both sides, but again, my solution is probably your specific circle that you can trust and move it like that, y'all. If you have that type of circle and you don't have to do that way either, but 100% outside of that circle, it probably only makes sense to get what you can out of this situation. You don't even know the people and it is all of this. I checked this out from none other than Ray Daniels. He makes it. She has everything to do with publishing. How I do it on the urban side was that the beat was 50%. The hook was 20. Each verse was 10 and the bridge was 10. A verse in the hook, I'm taking 30%. But when I got to the pop side, it was way different. They just split everything evenly. It's like, yo, it was eight writers, break it down. The reason why their way better is because now we're not worried about who contributed and did what. Like now if CJ's in the room, I'm not worried about did CJ program the drums properly because he's in the room. We're going to split this evenly. So this is his baby as much as my baby. Rather than the way urban side is, we're going to write the hook. I wrote the hook. Man, I gave him the first four words on the intro. It's like, come on, bro. If we all know it's our song equally, we care more. So if I wrote the hook and Tamara has a better line for it, I'm not thinking, oh man, she just cut into my 20%.  Help me out. Give me something. It's more collaborative rather than who did what and claiming to fighting over pennies. I just don't believe in that. All right. Now I know some of y'all might have y'all thoughts on this, but I do think he made some valid points. So we're going to discuss all sides because there were a couple notable names who had their own thoughts on this as well. Corey, what do you think though? Yeah, I do think it's interesting.  Type of genre, like, look at what I can do when I can kind of handle. So I do think that there's a natural affinity for pop artists to kind of want to collaborate. And I could see how this process will be beneficial because like I said, it's like everybody's making the same amount. There's an equal draw for us to make sure that this thing does well versus, you know, if I know I'm only getting paid 10% for the hook, I might have a gray idea for the verse, but I might hold it back because it's like, I ain't paid for that. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm gonna let the guy get paid for the verses, you know what I'm saying? Show, approve what he can do. So that's the one thing that I love about his suggestion and the equal splits. Now you have truly everybody there trying to create the best song possible. Because now we're getting the equal percentage, but we only can increase our percentage by making the song do as good as possible, right? And it has to be a better song, theoretically, right, to perform better. Otherwise, my competition is not only the marketplace, but the other person creating this song with me. So I like that aspect of it. Every RSI I've ever talked to says the most awkward part of a studio session is when everybody has to sit down and talk about the splits. Like almost every RSI I've talked to is like, that's when it gets uncomfortable. Because like, I guess reality says saying that this is business, you know what I'm saying? Like you just have fun making music, you know what I'm saying?  You know what I'm saying? Nobody leave this room before we get this down on paper. So I would assume that if I walked in a room where I know, like, okay, all of us in here are getting the same percentage of this. Yeah, that takes some weight off my shoulder. You know what I'm saying? And like you said, it makes me a little bit more artistically free or a little bit more creatively free. So that's why like, I could, I get that. Like, I agree with that. Like on paper at least to a non-songwriter, you know, throw it out there guys. You know what I'm saying? It makes a lot of sense to me, bro. Like bust it down evenly, bro. And let the, let the audience decide who should, I guess, quote unquote, be paid more off of it. Right, right. Let me take a quick second to say, if you're an artist trying to blow your music up, or if you're a manager, a music professional, in general, trying to help an artist blow their music up, I have something that's a game changer for you. And it's completely free. As you may know, we've helped multiple artists go from zero to hundreds of thousands of streams. We've helped multiple artists go from hundreds of thousands to millions of streams, chart on billboard, go viral, all of that stuff. And we've now made the way we've branded multiple artists and helped them go viral completely free step by step in Brandman Network. All you have to do is check out brandmannetwork.com. You apply, it's completely free. But the thing is, we're not going to let everybody in forever. So the faster you apply, the better your chance of getting accepted. Brandmannetwork.com. Check it out. Back to the video. Now, I know a lot of people handle that awkward conversation by just letting the managers do it. Right. That's a great buffer. So that's always nice. So you and the artists can remain 10-yard relationship, let managers do whatever they got to do. Yeah, you know how I go, man. Got a posture and say what you got to say to get through it. So, but yeah, that's definitely going to be an ongoing conversation. I'm sure there's not going to be one answer for the whole thing. But since I did mention Cisco as a part of this, if y'all have not seen, it's either a voice or a noisy documentary on Cisco Thong's song. It's a brilliant documentary. And the amount of creativity that he put towards that process is really dope. Like it was dope because they had, the producers made this beat. They did it for Michael Jackson. They even went Cisco. Like they played it for him by mistake and they were like, Oh, I didn't imagine Michael Jackson. But it wasn't. They didn't, you know, the Thong song part didn't exist. That part didn't exist. That would be wild. All right. But so he ends up like writing the song, the story of how he even comes up with Thong song. He like went on a date and he saw a Thong for the first time. Like this is when it was in time. It's wild because the funny part is, and he told his friends about it. And they were like, wait, what? And then they start, like some niggas, going out into the city trying to find girls and get, you know, smash and then hopefully see a Thong come across this, this mythical Thong he spoke of. And then a friend came back. One of them was like, yo, bro, guess what? What I found. And he was like, what? That thong, thong, thong, thong. And that's where that part came from. Like, and they do it in for a joke and whatever, but he didn't think it was gonna stay. So it was like the way it came about. And then you see Cisco creatively say, hey, this isn't enough. He went and found a violinist. And you listen back to that song, like, that's a huge part of the song. Yeah. Like he went and found that it was in the dude who played the violin. Like he was so far from that type of music. Classical music. Yeah. Like a little jit older white man. Well, he might have been younger than but now our age, he was still older to me, right? Yeah. He and knew nothing really of those that genre. And Cisco kind of like had him play it. And I was like, yeah, that's exactly how I want it. And when it came out, and it was a hit, he was so detached. And when his friends and people started talking about it, he was like, I wonder if that's that song I played that riff for. Like that's how detached he was. But Cisco was like just grabbing people and even against the producers, you know, will. And ironically, Michael Jackson loved the thong song so much, heat up the producers. And I'm like, yo, well, let's get into the studio. Yeah, I heard that story. I remember hearing that man, who would have thought bro thong song be what tickle Michael Jackson's fans? Hey, bro, Michael. No, I'm gonna get it to tickle with Michael. My Michael is definitely an interesting dude. And more and more, I've heard about him.