Coming up on DTNs, rugged gear is in. Amazon wants you to come to its outlet store and why nobody trusts big tech anymore. This is the Daily Tech News for April 1st, 2021 in Los Angeles, I'm Todd Merritt. And from Studio Redwood, I'm Sarah Lane. And this is Allison Sheridan from the Podfeat Podcast. Roger, sharing the show's producer. We were just talking about why I don't care that this is episode 4,000 of DTNs, as well as hot dog shaped hamburgers and Sarah's new contacts. That was all packed in on good day internet. Get that wider show to become a member at patreon.com slash DTNs. Let's start with a few tech things you should know. Microsoft ended support for the Cortana app for iOS and Android globally on March 31st. Lists, reminders and other content created in the apps is still accessible on Cortana for Windows with list and reminders also automatically synced to the Microsoft to-do app. Google's AI powered reservation service, Duplex, is now available in 49 US states. Why not 50? Apparently local laws in Louisiana are an issue. Google tells the Verge that Duplex has taken a while to roll out across the US because it had to add certain features to the service or wait for legislation to change to make it legal in some states, such as offering a callback number for businesses contacted by Duplex. Google also confirmed it will not exhibit at this year's Mobile World Congress, citing its COVID-19 travel restrictions and protocols. It joined similar announcements from Nokia, Ericsson, Sony and Oracle. Following lines completed merger with Yahoo Japan, Yahoo Japan owner Z Holdings last month, Z Holdings announced Thursday that its subsidiary, YJ Capital, has merged with Line Ventures to form Z Venture Capital. So Line, Yahoo Japan, all part of Z Venture Capital. New firm will launch a 30 billion Japanese yen fund, that's about $271 million US, which will focus on global markets like South Korea, the United States, China and Southeast Asia for investment opportunities, as well as Japan itself of course. Well, everybody Twitter has laid live video streaming service Periscope to eternal rest for real. The app is no longer even available in Apple's App Store. Twitter bought Periscope back in 2015. It was a different world back then. Periscope's website though, is still live. And if you're a user, you can download archived versions of your videos there. It is of course, survived by streaming video on Twitter. And I feel a little bad because I brought up Meerkat on yesterday's show and then today Periscope finally died. Aw, you killed it.  They just were bundled into larger platforms. The real Periscope is the feature that was added to Twitter along the way. And it's the one in your heart. And in your heart. All right, let's talk a little more about rugged gear, Allison. All right, rugged gear is in. Caterpillar has brought its rugged CATS-S62 pro phone to the United States for $699. It's got mid-range phone specs, but includes a flip thermal. I'm sorry, that's not supposed to be flipped. That's supposed to be a FLIR thermal imaging camera. A temperature alarm can stand up to 1.5 meters of water for 30 minutes and high pressure spray, also known as IP68 and IP69. It meets the Mil-Standard 810 military standard for vibrations and thermal shock, concluding six-foot drops onto a steel surface. And Casio unveiled its first G-Shock rugged Wear OS smartwatch. What's new is the dual-layer display with an always-on LCD to display the time, and then they combine that with a regular full-color LCD for maps, sensor data, and more. It has a titanium back, shock and water resistant to 200 meters, GPS compass, altitude, barometric pressure, heart rate, and more. And it claimed 1.5-day battery life using the Color LCD or up to a month on the time display. The Casio G-Squad Pro, GSW H1000, and the $700 GSW H1000 are arriving in mid-May. So when I saw the Casio getting all this attention today, I thought, oh, it must be that dual display, because that is kind of cool. You've got the lower-power display just to see the time, and then it can give you some color and stuff for the maps. But y'all were telling me it's really just the return of G-Shock, I guess. I mean, G-Shock was a bit like, there was a time where, well, not everybody, but it was a very popular watch. I remember when my kids, it was like that's what they had to have. Yeah. My kids would just like, I gotta have a G-Shock. They all got G-Shocks. Yeah, so the idea that the G-Shock could come back, but also be a smartwatch is pretty cool. And I don't know, I mean, seems like it does all the things. I did have to laugh a tiny bit at the Caterpillar rugged phone, which can withstand things like high pressure spray, which is, I just don't know how often that's gonna be a thing that you have to deal with when you're like, well, thank gosh I have the rugged phone. Water skiing. That's it, water skiing. Once I was being sprayed with high pressure just now, for up to 30 minutes. But yeah, I think in Casio's case, this is a nostalgia play, but it does sound like a pretty cool watch and does all the stuff. And that was the whole thing with G-Shock in the first place, was that it was meant to be, you wear it every day, you wear it outdoors. It's got it all. It's kind of big, kind of bulky, but has it all. And it looks very G-Shocky. You know, it is a G-Shock, it's very memorable of that. One of the things with the high pressure spray is because the Caterpillar is marketed towards construction site workers, right? Where you would more likely be using a high pressure spray. But it is still kind of like, and I know every construction worker out there listening is like, oh no, I got a story about this. But like, how many situations did you hit your phone with the high pressure spray in? Well, now you don't have to worry about it again. As long as you don't hit your hands. Yeah, as long as you don't hit your hand too, you ever hit yourself with your power washer. The phone would, if the phone's in your hand, you got other problems. So it must have been sitting somewhere that you forgot about. Right, yeah. I also, before we move on, that Cascio is saying 1.5 day battery life. Sure, if you have some sort of a schedule where you charge it at night or whatever, not the end of the world. I will, I mean, I just, I know I sing my praises of the Fitbit all the time, but I mean, that guy is like, once every five days, I have to charge it. 1.5 would be like, ugh, I have to think about this a lot more often. I have less than a day battery life in my Apple Watch, but I actually don't mind that. But you don't wear it at night. I don't want to wear it at night. Yeah. And so I would think that the Fitbit with the five day, I'd forget when to charge it.  Well, that's happened too. Yeah. Definitely happened too. Yeah, I have all sorts of notifications. I'm much better at dating. My phone will remind me to charge my watch that's talking to my phone. It's a whole thing. All right, outlet stores. Do you like them?   It's the place where high-end brands can get rid of excess inventories. And the new as a consumer can get some stuff with a higher end label or cheaper. Then there's Ross, Home Goods, TJ Maxx chains that all take unsold goods from other chains and then sell those goods at a discount. Bloomberg sources say before the pandemic hit, so pre-pandemic, more than a year ago, Amazon was exploring the idea of opening its own physical locations to sell off unsold inventory of home goods, electronics, toys, baby products, and kitchen items all at a discount, Amazon stuff. Amazon considered pop-up stores as well as permanent locations according to the report. The company already has Amazon Outlet and Amazon Warehouse for selling unsold inventory or also returned items. So this would be the next physical location that Amazon would open. The company also has 96 total physical locations, Amazon Bookstores, Amazon Go convenience stores, Amazon Fresh grocery stores, and Amazon Four Star for electronics, home goods, and toys. Seems like they kind of have this all covered, but it doesn't count for the more than 500 whole foods locations that Amazon now owns as well. So what do we think is there room for another Amazon store for this runoff inventory that it obviously wants to get out of its warehouses? I can picture this being really popular and my first thought is it'll be like when you go to Costco and you know, you see something you think you want but you're like, ah, I'm not really sure I'll come back later, but then you know it won't be there if you don't buy it now. It's gonna be like that times 1,000 and you're gonna think, oh, I don't know if it's a good deal. Do I have time to check? No, I just gotta get it now. I think it'll sell, I think it'll do really well. Yeah, I'm sure Amazon will make it clear that everything must go. It may not be here tomorrow, so if you see it, grab it now. Yeah, it's a constant clearance sale, right? Exactly, and I think the idea of this being a physical store, people may say, well, Amazon's already doing this. Why do they need a physical store is it's a way to gather some shoppers that they might not get. You know, somebody may be a little weirded out about like, I don't know if I wanna buy bargain stuff over there, I wanna see it. Or I wanna shop around, I just wanna see what's there and it's a little harder to just see everything when you're on a webpage. So I think they get some sales they wouldn't otherwise. It also clears out the warehouse. They don't have to have it sitting in the warehouse waiting to sell on the outlet page. They can send it to this physical location and that becomes a warehouse for that stuff that constantly is moving things out. I went to an Amazon pop-up store in a mall back when malls were a thing and it was very interesting because I wanted a new Kindle and they had just come out with the latest one that's a little bit more squarish and kind of thick on one side and I wanted to see what it felt like and it felt horrible to me. So I was really glad I had a chance to go into a real store. I'd certainly give it a try. I'd definitely go wander the aisles. In fact, I'm really looking forward to just wandering aisles someday. Yeah, tell me about it. I think the idea of this is if I liken it to like a TJ Maxx for example, sure for the most part it's clothing but TJ Maxx also has bedding and plates and food sometimes by the cash registers and it's a little bit of like a everything store. And if Amazon's got the bookstores, the Amazon Go convenience stores, the fresh grocery stores, that's all fine. I mean, as long as they're selling merchandise out of there but they're specialty stores. Something that's a little bit more of a, hey, you're gonna get something for cheap here and there's a lot of stuff in here and it's a big super store. That's what people liked about outlet stores in the first place. Yeah, and Amazon four star is their non-outlet version of that.  I think it's interesting. I remember five, six years ago, people talking about whether Amazon should have physical presence and we all sort of imagined it as the Amazon store but what has happened is we have gotten specialty stores rather than the Amazon store. Even Amazon four star is electronics, home goods and toys. It's not, I mean, there's so many different kinds of things you can get on Amazon. It would be almost impossible to properly stock an Amazon store. So you would truly need a mall, an entire mall to be like, this is Amazon but real life. Don't give me the idea, Sarah. Amazon mall coming next. Third party sellers in real, yeah, there you go. Good stuff. You know, in looking at the, talking about the Amazon bookstores, I realized what I want them to make. I want them to make a bookstore where there's one copy of all of the books. So I can judge a book, buy its cover and then buy it for my Kindle. Cause that's what I miss. I don't know. We just scan a QR code, boom, done. They all look the same to me when they're on the Kindle but when I'm in a store, I can tell, ooh, this one's by Penguin. So the, it's real flexible. Okay, I'll buy that one. I'll buy it at my Kindle. Wow, yeah. All right, the chip supply shortage continues to affect multiple manufacturers. For instance, company called Analog announced that its pocket mobile game console, it's one of those retro game consoles, is delayed until October now because of quote, sudden and severe electrical component shortages as well as logistical issues leading to a domino effect of challenges for nearly everyone in the industry. They're like, this isn't just us. The biggest effects of course are still being felt in the auto industry. Ford just expanded downtime at more of its factories, including a truck plant in Dearborn, Michigan and an assembly plant in Kansas City, Missouri. Stellantis, which makes Ram Jeep and Chrysler vehicles is halting production at five North American plants through mid-April. Honda, Toyota and GM of all previously announced stoppages as well. GM and Ford have not been taking this lying down neither of Toyota or Honda or Stellantis but GM and Ford have been taking chips meant for other less profitable cars and putting them in the pickup trucks because they know they can sell those and make more money off them but they've now had to start building trucks without chips. They don't have enough chips even for the trucks anymore so they're building trucks without the chips and then just parking them until they get the chips and they can finish the truck and ship it. Companies are also starting to move away from just-in-time inventory to stockpiling. That's something every company did before the 80s but Toyota pioneered the just-in-time system in the 1980s bringing costs down. Toyota itself announced in February that it built up a four-month chip stockpile. Toyota from the 80s called and said that's heresy but that's the world we live in. Companies are talking about supply chain resiliency now. They wanna keep some of the cost savings of just-in-time but with flexibility like dual sourcing of parts, closer production to your factory, not orderings from so far away in case a boat gets caught in a Suez, standardization of parts so that you can use things in multiple places. Auto parts maker Dana is actually building a data sharing platform with suppliers so that they can see possible issues before they arrive. If you know a parts maker, three steps removed from the part you need is having an issue. You could start to plan better than finding out the day that the end part doesn't arrive because it's delayed. Electric batteries and motors are possible crisis spots that companies are looking to try to avoid problems with and of course getting more chips into the system would help too. TSMC just announced it plans to invest a further $100 billion over the next three years to expand its chip for application capacity. That's on top of 20 billion it had already announced and follows announcements of expansions and investments from Intel, Samsung, Global Foundries and more. But this, we keep saying we just need to push through the supply chain weirdness that was caused by all kinds of things in the pandemic but we're still pushing through. We haven't gotten through yet. And not just the pandemic, there were the fires in a factory and things like that. Everything could have gone wrong or was it floods or lost water? There certainly were things like that. Yeah. The kinds of things that may not have been as disastrous to the supply chain had it not been for the pandemic but it certainly didn't help. Yeah. So it seems to me this is gonna definitely increase the cost of cars over time. If these car companies are gonna hold inventory, that's a, you know, you don't wanna hold on to capital investments. You don't wanna hold inventory. That costs you money. Every dollar that you're held into an inventory is something that you're not making money on. So this is gonna cost more money over time. Well, or it pressures your profit margin even more. This is already a low profit margin business and it's gonna squeeze that because it's, we always forget as consumers that the cost of the good doesn't determine the price. The demand determines the price in combination with the cost of the good. So yeah, the cost of the good provides a floor which you can't charge any less unless you're selling it a loss for a reason but you can sell what the market will bear and there's only a certain point that you can raise the price of a truck right now because the demand is not what it was. But it's probably as we come out of this that demand is probably gonna go up so they could probably, you know, increase the cost and have people take it. Like I am just expecting spitball in here but I'm thinking flights are gonna get expensive, right? As soon as everybody, because everybody's gonna wanna fly at once. Everybody's gonna wanna buy a car at once. It's hard to guess. Actually the demand hasn't been as low as people thought for cars. I'm already seeing the airlines start to offer frequent flyer perks if you buy. Really? If you get back on a plane now, Delta just sent out a thing like, oh, we'll do extra perks, extra flights or any flights this year. So yeah, again, if nobody's flying, they'll need to keep those fares low. If everybody suddenly has to fly and there's more people flying than they have planes, then yeah, price goes up. What do you wanna hear us talk about on the show, folks? One way to let us know is in our subreddit, you can submit stories and vote on them at dailytechnewshow.reddit.com. Edelman surveyed more than 33,000 people in 28 countries to gauge consumer trust. They've been doing this for 21 years in institutions like media, government, business and the tech sector. Trust in the tech sector fell by 7% worldwide, a third straight year of decline. Trust in tech was going up and up and up until three years ago, worldwide, and then started to fall. Trust in tech hit a 21 year low in 17 countries, including China, the US and Australia, and the biggest decline happened in the United States. Tech was the most trusted sector studied in the US last year. Even with declines, it was still up at top. And it fell between last year and this year to ninth. Tech was still the most trusted sector despite the declines in seven countries. It declined, but it stayed on top. That's down from being the most trusted sector in 20 countries back in 2016. Only Saudi Arabia showed an increase in trust in the tech industry this year. Trust in tech is the lowest in Russia, the UK, Japan, the US and France, and it's the highest in Indonesia, far and away above in Indonesia, pretty good in India, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Kenya, Mexico and Thailand. But the fact of the matter is, tech blew it for one reason or another. They had everybody's trust, everybody's like, oh, tech, tech's great, love the apps and the phones. And then three years ago or so, everybody's like, don't like tech, too much power, too much stuff. How trustworthy do you guys feel tech is? Well, okay, so it depends on what's tech, right? Take the US specifically, went through an election year. A lot of issues with how Facebook and Twitter and pretty much Facebook and Twitter were handling that sort of thing and people's real trust issues with those platforms. Yeah, it's more social network than technology, but then you've got a company like Amazon going through a variety of warehouse issues and scaling issues and you have the occasional story coming out of one of those warehouses saying that things aren't going very well here. I can see where in the US, the trust going down makes a lot of sense and it doesn't even necessarily mean that the companies are failing in any sort of way, but that's just the vibe and some of the other countries, I find it really interesting that, yeah, like Saudi Arabia, increase in trust in tech over the last year. Is there something going on there that I don't know about? Is there perhaps a company that's, I don't know, working in the oil industry in a way that has made a lot of people happy? It's kind of fascinating. I want to build on what you were saying, Sarah. I hate this because it does put tech together. I mean, did people lose trust in Microsoft in the last couple of years? No, everything I hear is people love Microsoft right now. I haven't heard about people distrusting Huawei or there's a lot of companies. Well, yes. You have heard a lot of people distrusting Huawei. Okay. I don't think you meant Huawei. Did you mean Xiaomi? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Huawei's the one that the United States doesn't trust because they think it's owned by the Communist Party. Okay, but that doesn't necessarily mean the people in China don't trust it. In China, they don't. That's good. Right, in China, it was the lowest. Tech had gone to its lowest, right, is what you said. So I always put on my Chinese hat there. So, and you know, Apple, I don't think it's that probably doesn't hit the low trust thing. They get kind of swept up in some of the other stuff, but I feel like this has maybe all been swept by the Twitter and Facebook problems and Google and I trust and that's where I think that it's sort of like the way the NASDAQ gets swayed, right? I fully expect to get some emails saying, I don't trust Microsoft because, you know, everybody's their own data point. But the fact of the matter is, I think everybody would say what you said, Allison, with different names. Like, well, I know people say they don't trust Google, but I love them and I think they're fine. And they do a lot for security. It's not actually what they do. I'm the one who's made the point that I think Facebook, while they do a lot of things that I disagree with and don't like and I don't use Facebook because of it, I don't think that you can actually say what effect they had on the 2016 election, but that is what they get accused of being bad about. That's what it feels like. Where there was a psychology professor took some properly acquired data and without Facebook's knowledge gave it to somebody else and suddenly Facebook was, you know, the company that swayed the election. I don't personally believe that happened. So to me, it's really not about what happened because you can make all kinds of arguments about all of that. It's about the fact that they're big. And once something gets big enough, people stop trusting it because they don't trust the power it has and they don't know or understand everything that it can do. And I think that was true of railroads. It was true of oil companies. And now it's true of Google, Amazon, Apple, Facebook and to a certain extent Microsoft, Netflix, et cetera. I can see what you're talking about. I know that there is a tendency whenever a company's on top that you've got to bring them down.  Yeah, because people, you know, when it's a small company it's easier to wrap your head about who's doing what. When it's massive, like these companies, you start to not really know who's in charge. Who are the real people behind what's going on besides the CEO? Yep. Well, it is April 1st in most of the world, anyway. But what is apparently not an April Fool's joke, the toy maker Funko acquired a majority stake in the NFT startup Tokenwave with plans to combine Funko Pop vinyl figures with digital tokens using the Wax platform. Yes, not a April Fool's joke, we don't think. The first NFTs will arrive in June with Funko offering new ones each week, starting at $10 with rare tokens tied to exclusive Funko Pop figures. Yeah, I got a message from Rich Straffolito who puts together Daily Tech headlines this morning saying, I'm pretty sure this is not a April Fool's joke, but I just need a gut check on this. I was like, I don't know, man, maybe I'd stay away. He's like, it's in there SEC filing. So if it is a joke, then they're going to be very elaborate fraud maybe. So I think it's real. But even then, even with all of that, we were both like, I think so. I guess it's OK. And we decided it would just be sure. I mean, April Fool's jokes are some are great. Some are not. They're mostly not great anymore, but it would be a really weird April Fool's joke if it were to be a joke, which it isn't. That's not why we're talking about this. I think there have been some really weird April Fool's jokes over the years. But yeah, you're right. But it was just like, hey, look what we're planning to do. And people would be like, that's exciting. I'm into it. And then be like, ha ha, gotcha, April Fool's. Because I think this is actually something that, yeah, these are fungible things in history. And the idea of it becoming an NFT thing is like, if people are like, oh, but if I'm collecting it, then what do I get out of something like this? I'm not exactly sure. But I think it's cool, even though I'm not really into this world myself, that there are companies that understand that they have IP that people want to be a part of. And people might have other options this way. This is the numbering. This is digital numbering, if you're collectible. You have the FunkoPop number one NFT that goes with your FunkoPop. There's a whole list of issues about if you sell the NFT, do you have to send them the actual physical FunkoPop? And people have to navigate that. But it is an interesting use of that aspect of NFTs, for sure. You couldn't just print a one on the FunkoPop? You can. But then also, people are like, yeah, but I want the record of it. I want people to know on the ledger. Right. Hope there's no disappearing FunkoPods. Well, yeah, I hope so, too. Also, Kevin Schaefer on Twitter thought that maybe I gave people a misimpression when I was talking about what fungible meant yesterday. Fungible means interchangeable. So I apologize if I misled anyone yesterday. Let's check out the mailbag. Yeah, we, I forgive you, Tom. In the mailbag, Andy, who says he's in warming up, but quickly becoming mud-seasoned in New Hampshire, says I just had to write in about your discussion on gender selection for voice assistants. This was in our show yesterday. And we were talking about the fact that Siri is now not going to default to a female assistant. It will let a user, well, will require a user to choose their own voice. Andy says, I don't use Google Assistant much, but I do work in an emergency department where we wear a voice assistant that helps schedule reminders, call colleagues, announce emergencies, et cetera, named Vocera. From what I've seen in Wisconsin and New Hampshire, these are fairly common in hospitals. Vocera is not incredibly accurate, though. And especially with all the PPE we're wearing, you frequently get a response of, I think you said, or I didn't get that, let's try again. After the umpteen time yelling angrily at Vocera, I chose to change it to a male voice, as I felt slightly less guilty yelling at a male voice than a female voice. Even though I know this is the virtual assistant and any genders we're assigning are purely in our imagination. I love the idea of being able to change your virtual assistants to fit your personal needs right away in the setup like you were discussing. I love that. That is fabulous. Because how many, there's a whole thing about that with kids trying to teach them to be nice to the virtual assistants, because people are worried their kids are gonna learn bad behaviors because they yell at the A lady or the S lady. Yeah, I mean, I do this often. I mean, my assistants, it's mostly Amazon's assistant, at least in my house, where I'm, you know, talking out loud to it. But there are many times where, you know, sometimes bark something and then I get my answer and I go, thank you. Sorry, sorry if I felt short just then. I know they were, I think it was, Tim Cook was talking about what they can do or somebody was talking about what they can do to improve Siri. And my suggestion was you should be allowed to listen for obscenities and yelling right after whatever you say. So for that split second after it says something and you say, no, that's not what I said, they should be able to hear that because that's where they should go back and analyze the voice recognition. Yeah, and listen, it's a digital assistant, as Andy has pointed out, it's not a person. You know, there's only so much guilt you should take. You know, if you lose your mind trying to talk to your personal assistant, but it does kind of matter psychologically. If you're like, I don't feel right, you know, getting the information that I do need from this with this particular voice, having options is good. If you have feedback for anything that we talk about on the show, anything that we might talk about on the show, questions, comments and the like feedback at dailytechnewshow.com is where to send those ideas. We also like to shout out patrons at our master and grandmaster levels. Today they include Scott Hepburn, Dale McKayhee and Ellie Sanjabi. And thank you to our brand new bosses. Got a few of them today. Rob Watts, Jimmy Smith and Celtic Wolf all just started backing us on Patreon. Thank you to our new bosses, y'all the best. Also thanks to Alison Sheridan, also the best. Alison, what's been going on since we saw you last? Well, I am very excited that I got a DTNS7, Len Peralta sticker in the mail for being a patron for how long? Three months?  Get a new sticker, so I have that one. But I'm afraid as excited as I was about that, I'm more excited about my new one. I have a sticker that says I got my COVID-19 vaccine today. Yay! That's my big excitement. I didn't get a sticker with mine. I did not either. Yeah, that's cool. And you can find my fine work on this subject and others at podfeat.com. Hey, folks, another thing patrons get is a column from Roger Chang every week. Good stuff, good tech perspectives.  This week, Roger shares his thoughts on watching first-run movies from the comfort of his couch. Even if he doesn't always like the movie, he does like watching it from his couch. So go check that out, patreon.com.dtns. You know, we are on demand, but we're also live. If you can tune in and join us live, we'd love to have you. We're live Monday through Friday at 4.30 p.m. Eastern. That's 2030 UTC. And you can find out more at dailytechnewshow.com slash live. And we're going to be back here tomorrow with Chris Ashley. Talk to you then. This show is part of the Frog Pants Network. Get more at frogpants.com. I hope you have enjoyed this program.


Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Wherever you're healing from welcome to another edition of ask an open shift admin I am Chris short executive producer of open shift TV, and I am joined by the one and only Andrew Sullivan Andrew We have a special guest on today. Please introduce yourself and our guests. We do so. Thank you, Chris and Looking forward to today's show. It was fortunately our guest Catherine du Bay who is a product manager with open shifts was very gracious and very accommodating because I I asked her very very last minute yesterday afternoon if she was able to join. So Thank you DM me at like six o'clock last night. Yeah, yes. Yeah, something like that. So Thank you in advance before I even introduce you Catherine. Thank you in advance So this is the ask an open shift admin office hour It is one of the office hour series of live streams here on open shift TV So what that means is that we are here to answer any of the things that are on your minds, right? Whatever it is that is bothering you that comes to mind whatever questions you happen to have You've got three experts here Catherine is somebody that I rely on pretty heavily to help answer questions to Reassure me that I am either right or wrong as the case may be So if we don't know the answer, we are more than happy to go and find the answer Whether that means you know reaching back into the rest of the product management team reaching into engineering finding those Relevant people to to find those or get those answers for you That being said in the absence of questions from you all we are very happy to have Today's guest Catherine du Bay and today's topic which is revisiting the installing the installer in the install process So if you recall last year kind of the some of the first episodes that we did here of the ask an open shift admin live stream Back when it was called the open shift admin office hours We talked about installers. We talked about the install process We kind of did a bit of a deep dive down into that and all the different things that are going on inside of there But of course things change. There's been some new things. There's been some old things that have Changed if you will so we wanted to revisit that because it's important to keep up with what's going on and make sure you're aware of all of the options that are available out there and quite literally I could not think of a better Subject matter experts or a better person to come on and talk about this then Catherine so Catherine if you will please introduce yourself Hi everyone, I'm Catherine du Bay. I am part of the open shift product management team My focus is on installation and updating of open shift Yay So We'll get to that in just a moment. We'll we'll talk about the install process We'll talk about you know a day in the life of Catherine, which is I'm sure even more chaotic than Chris and I But first, you know in in long-standing tradition The things that are top of mind things that have come up recently that I want to highlight and make sure that you all are aware of So this was a relatively quiet week red hat had a holiday over the weekend So it was just it was quiet. I don't I'm gonna treat that as a good thing right as administrators if it's quiet That means everything is running smoothly. I don't know if Think it was Futurama right where Bender was the you know, you know, you've done it right if nobody thinks you've done anything at all Right, that's a good administrator if everybody goes what's that guy doing here?  That's a good thing So a couple of things so I got asked this comes up periodically around the Entry VMware storage provisioner So when we deploy a cluster that is vSphere integrated so vSphere IPI vSphere UPI we configure the entry storage provisioner and That provisioner if you look in the upstream docs Support some things or is capable of doing some things that open shifts doesn't support or is not capable of doing so things like multi DRS cluster multi vCenter Importantly things like storage DRS clusters So I saw at least one example this week where the customer was I think they did a UPI install And they were able to successfully deploy using a data store cluster However, what happened is storage DRS did what storage DRS does It moved one of the discs for a virtual machine and it caused a ripple of things to happen Not the least of which was there was a bunch of pvs that wouldn't connect because it lost track of where they were at so Please be aware. Please be conscious of you know, if you're if you have a DRS cluster storage DRS cluster that you don't want to use that for open shift deployments You want to use just a standard data store for that Cool The second thing that I had was oh somebody sent me an email So one of our IBM compatriots sent me an email asking about examples for deploying the registry and using storage Non-default storage or other storage that is configured So we were chatting about this before I show started in Catherine very kindly corrected me in that when the cluster is After the cluster is deployed the Registry operator kind of detects what infrastructure it's on and then configures the storage appropriate for that and Catherine I'm gonna Help help to keep me honest here. So basically if it says hey, I'm on Azure It does things like talks to the credential mentor and says hey, please give me some, you know, Azure object storage or whatever storage Credentials so I can request my PVC or connect to that object storage and then goes through and configures all of that But what if I want to do something different? How can I do that? So I'm gonna work on and I've got some background things going on Hopefully next week. I'll be able to talk about show some of those examples I'm also gonna work on a blog post for OpenShift.com. Nice talk about that. Yeah, so the way the way it works I'm just really quick. I'm not spending too much time on it, but yeah when when any of the OpenShift components that require cloud API access, they will request a credentials request that essentially is what gives them Enough credentials to go create the resources that need so in the case of Azure Since you brought that up that would be its own storage account So when they are once it has the permissions it can then request what it needs for the registry and then that gets created as part of the operator itself Hopefully that Provides the right level of detail you're looking for That's great. Thank you So the last thing that I have is something that just came out this morning It was shared by Chris and I as teammate Eric Jacobs who also has a live streamer two or five on here Yeah, so Chris or Chris so Eric has been working in conjunction with Kirsten newcomer and a handful of other folks around Updating what we call the Red Hat OpenShift container platform architecture design guide for PCI DSS, which is a huge mouthful Yeah effectively if you are a customer who is Interested in or has PCI DSS Requirements this is meant to help you with that architecture process, right? How do I design deploy manage my OpenShift deployment within those constraints? So I posted the link to that into the chat there be sure to check it out If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me or Chris Andrew dot Sullivan at redhat.com Chris dot short at redhat.com Not just C short. Oh C short. Yeah, that's right. We were talking about yeah, sorry It's Chris short on Twitter, but C short on email I'll get should I I mean like if I went about and created like a consistent handle across all platforms people wouldn't know Where I am anymore, so We're only this is what episode 25, you know, we're only 25 episode maybe another 25. I'll get it. Yeah, eventually Alright, so I see there's a couple of questions already So I think we should go ahead and address those and then we can you know go from there And and again, please at any time feel free to ask any questions that you have whether or not they're related to today's topic So, you know the installer is today's topic, but don't let that inhibit you So the first one from Let's see Rahul. I have to migrate from OpenShift 3 to 4. Could you please share any reference links? So Chris, I see you shared the migration topic link there. I think that's a good one Yeah, so we do have a number of migration tools not the least of which is the migration toolkit for containers What I was thinking of remember the name of so basically you stand up the new cluster you points So I think it gets deployed to the new cluster and then you point it at the old cluster and say hey migrate all this stuff for me and we just Did a stream on that with storage so you can do this with storage you can do this with just about anything Drop the link and chat there to the next. That's the wrong link. Yeah Yeah, as I'm I spent a little bit of time yesterday planning out shows planning out episodes for the rest of this quarter So I think I'm gonna tack that migration topic on to the end So hopefully some time in June we'll be able to cover that here on this show Let's see another question we had from Dean if I use the assisted installer with bare metal How can I add a new node post installation? So Catherine, I'll kick this one over to you even though I know assisted installer is kind of parallel to what you're doing And if you want to elaborate on that please do So let me maybe just ask the question one time there, so I understand what the So you add a node to a assisted installed cluster. Yeah Yeah, I believe so so and actually can be done a couple of ways I believe assisted installer itself you could and this isn't something I'm involved with but I'll sort of you know Fumble through it as best as I can. I believe you can still use the bootable assets We're under Or whatever they call it the boot media. I guess is the right ISO that they give you yeah, yeah So you can you can still stand up nodes and add them in that way, but you actually really don't have to it's an Open ship cluster at the end of the day all you really need to know is booting of the operating system and where to go get the admission and the mission is always hosted On the the masternodes. So there's a ignition boot service that you can you can leverage So it's no different from whether you do it on day one or you do it on day 27 It doesn't make a difference, right? But that's the typical method and that works across any of the installation types So not just in it's just an installer not just you know, UPI IPI It could be done in any different ways so you can manually add nodes in an IPI cluster. You can use machine sets But essentially all it really is is you're passing a user data field to that node which is Location where to go get its ignition config. So depending on the node nodes role Whether it's a worker or a master in a case of if you had to replace that control plan that You would boot with that ignition that in turn would then Work on joining a cluster and then you'll need to approve the CSRs for that, you know Which essentially is their certificates the client and server certificates to Be able to securely communicate So just kind of to rewind that back. It sounds Almost as easy as using the assisted installer minus the fact you have to go manually approve CSRs Yeah, you still have to do it in the case, especially the bare node the bare node cluster because you don't really know that The node itself belongs in the cluster We get a little smarter with Some of the cloud providers where we can say well, hey, we kind of guess you are because we know you're You know on this this cloud infrastructure, you're Um You know the the networks that you're running on or is the network you should be on So there's this things it looks at to do the auto approval Uh, whereas sort of bare metal is a little more challenging this not quite as much information there Yeah, yeah dean says using the assisted installer. He doesn't have to deal with ignition files, which right Yeah, it's they're still there. They're just invisible to you. Uh, one of the nice things about that, right Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think the original name of uh, assistant installer may be to kind of, you know, paint a different picture on it was Uh, upi plus plus was the original name And and they you know, they call it assistant solars So the way I describe upi to people is user provision infrastructure is essentially like no installation, right? There's no installer. You're just getting all the necessary artifacts that you need to Bring up a cluster, but from there you're responsible for provisioning everything, right? With ipi obviously that's full stack automation. That's means it's provisioning everything for you It automatically just comes up and you have a run cluster So assistant installer is really kind of the the middle of the road, right? Where you have the notion of you know boot media or isos those nodes boot up they essentially Establish identity going by connecting back to the service And then you form a cluster based on where you're sort of running those those Images, so it it makes it a lot easier as opposed to manually having to go to each node and sort of provision that right again anyway Yeah, so I noticed that you you answered or it probably out of Habit at this point what I can only imagine is you're most frequently, you know Asked and answered question, which is the difference between ipi and upi so I have a I guess a two two questions related to that So one from your perspective are there, you know advantages or disadvantages to one install method versus the other And then the the second part or the follow on to that is is there a difference in the cluster that gets provisioned right at the end of that Yeah, that's a that's a great question You know it definitely I think there's a large perception that Upi is inferior to ipi Um, I would argue the other direction ipi is probably more inferior to upi and the fact that It's a bit more prescriptive right we we try to you know get the 80 I think the best way to describe is the 80 use case like the 80 of customers What they're intending to use for options and settings on their deployment We cover as part of that um automated installation process Whereas upi really sort of opens the door to I want to do customizing of the infrastructure and this is sometimes what people get confused They equate it to customizing of the install of open shift. It's actually customizing of the infrastructure That open shift runs on so the resulting cluster itself isn't doesn't necessarily have to be different and Well, the docs sort of explain it to the maybe the far extreme of you manually provision everything including your nodes Your control plane nodes and everything else. It actually doesn't have to so you can still use some of the ipi Uh functionality in a upi cluster and you can actually do it on day one Uh, for example, say you wanted to do machine set creation We actually generate those as part of the installation or open shift manifests Even on a upi cluster So it's up to the admin to want to apply those and use those So they can actually be done in advance of creating a physical node like you would do on a normal ipi a upi process you could actually instead apply the the machine sets and then the cluster would go off in provision in the case where There is a machine api provider available for the The the platform you're deploying on to the case would be like vmware or aws or gcp or azure, etc so You can make those clusters look Nearly identical. I would say there's probably a Small small really tiny differences, but not enough from an operational perspective. These clusters will perform identically You can have a plastic Uh in dynamic uh compute capacity the same way you can do an ipi And you get the the the advantage of being able to customize the infrastructure Um in cases where you wouldn't be able to do this with ipi. There's a lot of cases where that may be Um more beneficial to do it in upi and sort of script it for your organization as opposed to trying to make ipi fit A model that it's really not intended for Yeah, I know and one of the things I want to follow up with you on in a couple of minutes here is You know, you and I we tend to answer a lot of questions You know with the field and with customers around the installation process and a lot of times that bleeds over into architecture So I definitely want to talk about that a little bit So dean dean has a question here, which you you kind of partially answered so Why do we consider upi to be superior when ipi allows automatically scaling nodes using effectively an oc command You know and whereas with upi, you know, he's saying you have to do your own automation which I see christian and and chris are chatting down below saying that that's that's not true And you said the same thing Um and then kind of the second one, which is tangentially related which uh acm requires ipi clusters ipi deploy clusters Yeah, so the the the reason for that Has to do with the provisioning technology under the covers So ecm doesn't require ipi It requires ipi to be able to provision a cluster, but it doesn't require ipi to adopt a cluster so you could still Do a upi deployment adopt that deployment for management through acm It's only when you want acm to provision The underlying cluster that you would need ipi and the reason for that Has to do with the integration of How it's provisioned so it's actually it integrates through a service called um open shift hive Which is a api for provisioning clusters Now as part of that For that service to work it needs to not have provisioned the underlying infrastructure And this is where I you know, sometimes maybe people struggle a little bit as why one is better than the other In cases where you need that additional customization of the infrastructure Hive or anything else isn't going to know how to do it, right? You're going to be your own admin your own Sort of controller of how you want that to look like, you know, what you know, what shape what size whatever And that's where you know, you could still look at automating the provisioning a good example is Say you're on aws. We provide Cloud formation templates that will pretty much you follow, you know one by one or six stacks You would get a running function cluster But do you really need to have six cloud formation stacks? No, actually not you could you could tie it into all different You know one script with a couple questions And it would look just like ipi at the end of the day. You'd have a identical cluster. You can absolutely do that Um, so that's the case where you really need that customization and that's why it will work with a cm Is because it doesn't know That special infrastructure customization It only works with kind of like here's kind of the 80% use case with ipi and here's you know If you can you can adhere to this then we can go provision it because we know how to do that as part of the regular installation So I'm going to take some questions a little out of order here. So ricky. I see your question I'll get to that in just a moment because And then multiple answers there. Yeah, and then jp dates. I see you chatting about some things as well So I'll we'll address those So just to kind of round out or complete the thought process here with dean So I'll first I'm going to expose my lack of knowledge around a cm So a cm advanced cluster manager. I think it's the name of it. Yes. Yep. So advanced cluster manager is red hats multi cluster management tool so effectively Right, it's a a management plane where you either create rate deploy as katharine was saying or join existing OpenShift clusters into that management plane and then you can do things like manage rate apply security policies apply our back etc across all of those member clusters so kind of what walking through you know with with that set so I Dean here is saying things like cluster pooling are coming out that will require ipi I'm not familiar with a cm's roadmap. I don't think a cm requires ipi It requires like you have to install that a cm node What they call the node or the hub? That has to be installed in an ipi fashion But after that you can add additional clusters that are not ipi Well, I'm I'm assuming what you're saying here is that a cm has a feature called cluster pooling that will use ipi And what what Dean's building here is a case? I guess against katharine statement that UPi is the superior method Which I will say that I I I agree, but it's like a 51 percent to 49 percent degree. I I agree because The the flexibility and the scalability particularly Or I should say the simplicity around UPI I find to be better Particularly the load balancer aspect, right? Yes, there's an integrated load balancer that comes with ipi It is fairly limited both in scale as well as in configuration whereas with UPI You can configure that however you like in whatever manner you want And still add machine sets day two to be able to get the cost or auto scaling So I'll take a step back now katharine if you you know, do you have any thoughts? Do you have anything to add there? Yeah, yeah, you you started hitting the nail on the head with that one So the reason why I still stand by that comment is ipi is good for A certain prescriptive use case and I I would say we're trying to get better and expanding that out And I I think the metrics we've we've sort of seen on You know who's using what whether UPI versus ipi We're starting to see a definitely an uptick in ipi. Don't get me wrong. We want people to use ipi It's a lot easier process, right? So I I'm not trying to argue there but if you look at terms of What you can do with one versus the other one up is actually the more superior one You can pretty much do anything you want a good example is so not just the Built-in internal load balancer And dns functionality that we have with ipis for sure for all the on-premise ones But even in the cloud you run into the same scenarios So say for instance, you have a case where a customer wants to extend an on-premise networking service like for dns The way we do ipi today is route 53 on s or nothing, right? So you sort of don't have that option and that's we're on aws with upi you'd be able to do that So I I think that's where the the you know a lot of the differences are One is like, you know, we give you what's there's a term We give you the bullets. We give you the gun And we let you use it any way you want Whereas where's ipi we we put one in the chamber and we point the gun So we we make sure you don't get hurt with it. So that's That's a big difference in kind of how you can do it. One is pretty much the flexibility to do anything you want With the the risk of it's, you know, it could be a lot more complex or it can be you know, sort of Is Is customers you want I guess, you know customization adds complexity, right? Just as a sort of fundamental statement Whereas we look at ipi as sort of the most robust Mereliable almost perfect way to get a cluster a hundred percent of the time But we limit what you can do as part of that initial bring up and then everything else that doesn't fit This is probably another majorly important distinction is Installation in open shift four has really gotten a lot more simplistic. We purposely Prevent a lot of options from getting in the installer on day one And we push those to day two and the only really sort of guidelines we have is that You know, this feature is prolific like everyone wants it The second thing is is it's unsafe to change on day two or it's required For installation on day one. So we're very strict on that But as such, you don't have that infrastructure customization flexibility to get the dpi. Hopefully that was not too So I want to poke on that just a little bit of you know, I know we've discussed, you know, here on the ask an admin live stream before of With the change from open shift three to open shift four, we went from Ansible playbooks that had I think somebody told me 1200 plus options that you could set in the in the values.yaml Or preferences or whatever it was right To, you know, open shift install in version four where, you know, the install config You can customize it to some degree, right open shift install explain is your friend I love that command because you can go through and you can see all of the different options and all the things that you can configure but It might be a hundred options total across all of the infrastructures all of the different things that you can do and I think you you really highlighted that of The the result of open shift install is The cluster being up and running and ready to do all of those other things which was, you know, probably 1100 of those 1200 options in version three for doing things like you know, configuring all of these little Cluster add-ons and minutia and all that other stuff and with three it was unless all of it succeeds None of it succeeds whereas with four if the cluster install succeeds Great, you've got a running cluster and now you can go through that You know, hopefully not but potentially iterative process of deploying all those add-on services So and where I'm going with all of that is We sometimes get asked and Catherine you and I have had these conversations before like partners will ask school Hey, I want to add and customers as well I want to add maybe, you know, configuring my load balancer my external load balancer as a part of the installer, right? I want I want open shift install. I want there to be a stanza for my f5 So it'll go out and configure the f5. Can we add that? Why can't we do that type of stuff? So I appreciate your thoughts your perspective on that Yeah, it's it that's a that's a great way to put it. I I don't know that it was 1200 But if it is that's awesome. I know it's I know it's many many hundreds Put it that way So, um, you know, that was always the thing. I think a lot of this I I sort of inherited the installer midway through 3x days, so can't necessarily blame anyone or I don't want to shift the blame anyone but It was always that one more option. It was just one more option I'd have the cluster the way we wanted it for this customer and What we did is a lot of snowflakey things where it was unique special Really wasn't generally applicable, but that one customer had that option, you know It was all written in ansible. Everyone could change it. They could submit pr so it was it ended up kind of getting this point where The reliability suffered a lot because of The permeantation of different options and then which ones could be You know put in the same the different combination would cause different results So that was a that was a pretty tricky problem and as we get to four we've really We've been strict One of the things that we don't allow is any flags whatsoever. I think there's there's Probably like two flags in the whole installer. I know like, you know minus minus Durr is to get the directory I want to say there's a there's one or two other like log level and things like that, but There's very little and and you know, we've gotten the the factions that oh, we could just you know parameter So we'll just put a bunch of tags or see me flags and we'll we'll just he'll be able to just run it without You know changing anything we're like, but that's not the api, right? so I think we've been we've been very strict on this And it it has shown from the reliability perspective From the ci that we've gotten in place You know The when you run this command and you basically fill out all the options You're getting a cluster right and unless it's something, you know broke or permissions or You know, we we're trying to check more and more and more validation on this environment So I won't say we're a hundred percent perfect, but it's significantly more reliable. So we've sort of shifted the problem now from Day one to understanding how you configure kubernetes on day two and that that's always been a struggle Right because we sort of looked at a knob bell and whistle. It makes it easier on day two But we sort of broke the installer by making it more complex So that's been a little bit of a struggle getting people to think more kubernetes like more config maps more manifests You know, you can still do a lot of that. You can still add those in in day one You know create manifests so we do have That option so anything on oc apply I think right we can make it happen If you wanted more than one machine set if you wanted infras on day one, you know, everyone argues it can't be done I'm like, yeah, actually it can't be You just got to create the manifest so We we sort of given the approach, but we've moved it from a flag or a field To a kubernetes way of doing it and I think that aligns a lot more with how customers are doing config management with acm or Git ops types of situations for a policy enforcement So these are the things that I think we just need to kind of shift our mindset from You know, having a bell and whistle or a knob or a flag To really thinking in kubernetes. How do we do that? And that's been I think the biggest challenge I think people are starting to come around to it And I think as we see more and more environments roll out We see the git ops types of Of deployments where they want to be able to just you know, check some PR in and you know Be able to boom push out a config and make their cluster declaratively conform to what they've defined it to be Yeah, and I think the the popularity of christians live stream You know the git ops happy hour, which is happening tomorrow by the way You know shows that We as a kubernetes using Industry or maturity right and and adapting and adopting many of these new philosophies Like any new technology it takes a little while Okay, so i'm going to go back and revisit some of those questions that we were talking about before I'm so lost now So apologies for anybody who's chatted anything about the last five minutes because I've been holding the chat In my screen just where ricky asked his question Which is I would like to host multiple nodes for students to access remotely Is there a high level roadmap on how I could accomplish this with open shift? And I think roadmap here is not like roadmap futures, but like how can I do this type of thing? So so ricky first a couple of things So When you say nodes are you referring to open shift clusters in which case the simplest thing to do would be to use the ipi installer Against lake azure or aws or google or one of the public clouds and just spin up clusters And then at the end of that install process It'll spit out the connection endpoints and credentials and you can just hand those over to your students and let them do what they do Uh alternatively if it's a shared environment, you know, essentially, you know spin up a cluster somewhere that's publicly accessible again aws azure etc And then deploy so deploy that cluster connect in and then use something simple like ht password authentication and give each one of those users A You know set of credentials that they can access the cluster with Entitle them, you know or give them permissions to whatever it is that they need permissions to And kind of go from there So the other scenario that I you know might be possible or that I might be thinking of here is You know, maybe you want to give them something that's Lighter weight than a full, you know, five or six node cluster Um, you know in which case code ready workspaces or excuse me code ready containers would be the answer for that So either helping them to deploy that locally to whatever resources they have or potentially deploying that onto Um, something that they can publicly access. Uh, so I don't know. Maybe it's not Packet is no longer packet. It's now uh equinex equinex metal. Yeah, so, you know Renting a server from them, you know deploying a number of instances inside of there and then handing over credentials for that Is is another way to potentially do that Um Catherine chris anything to add there Yeah, we we've got the other option is you, you know, if it's just like a student case You could use hive, you know, you could leverage a hub and spoke model deploy hive in your hub and then provision through Cluster deployments additional clusters as then they're needed again. I'm not sure if it's clusters or nodes In in the in the question, but that is another option and that's fairly minimal to do in terms of using hive Mm-hmm. Good to know. I need to I need to learn more about hive. Yeah, so here like I don't need some api Yeah Um, so jp date can we do upi for vSphere with windows worker nodes and ovean kubernetes networking? Uh, so I don't think this is an installer limitation. It's a uh, uh windows When when co what is it? It's the windows machine Yep, I always think windows media for some reason Which is not the same thing. Yeah, maybe so I don't think this is that's an installer limitation I think it's a uh windows nodes windows, uh machine config operator limitation there I thought they're they're pretty close to that. I know the the byo Uh windows isn't quite there yet. I think that's coming soon though But I thought the vmware support, um Sort of like think like a machine set type of deployment where you're spinning up your own Uh windows. I thought that's just about available or was already available. Ipi it works. Um, that's that's ga Uh, I think it's ga. Yeah. Yeah, the byo is still I think a release away if I recall Yeah, christian says it's in version 2.0.next. So thank you for uh Spending some time on chat during your your workout christian. Mm-hmm Let's see scrolling down here. I I know there was some others. So I'm going to take just a second To uh read through the chat, uh, does the installer uh rap scale in reads Does the installer allow for mixed ipi and upi deployments? If not, is there an easy ish way to add manual upi nodes to an ipi cluster? Um, so now I I'm just trying to figure out which way we're asking this whether we were trying to automate a upi Install or try to go the other way around. We're doing an ipi and then adding I think what he's asking is can I deploy with ipi and then add manually provision nodes as day two, right? You you can Uh biggest caveat is they must be on the same Platform that you've deployed the cluster on One exception is so uh, let me let me just maybe maybe take that one step further if you're on aws And you want to put a bare metal node manually joining the cluster that won't work but if you did a Platform agnostic install Where you didn't pick up a cloud provider. So think in the install config um Platform none would essentially allow you to mix any which way you want to mix, right? The downside is you wouldn't enable any of the platform integration So you wouldn't be able to autoscaling. You wouldn't be able to Dynamic storage. You wouldn't be able to You know provision the underlying infrastructure all that so pretty much any ipi Wouldn't work in that situation. Um, but you could do it if it's within the same platform So you could do a manual machine addition in the same platform What you would end up doing is you would have to be able to get There is a url for the For the admission config for a worker on the masters and I have to look up exactly what it is But I think it's even covered in the doc somewhere Um, you would pass it in through user data depending on the platform you have, you know Whether it's hosted in a web server somewhere or you know again using it off the cluster Which is probably the easiest way to do it You would then boot that node and once it joins it would be a single worker node on its own so essentially So this is an interesting one and it's not one that I I think off off the top of my head I would have said no to this um, but effectively it's the same as A upi and then adding machine sets day two Just in reverse So you're adding nodes that wouldn't be a member of a machine set but would be a part of a machine config pool And you're just following the exact same process Yep, so that's good to know. Uh, so I'll follow on that question and it might be asked later on I just haven't gotten there yet. Can you convert between ipi and upi? Like can I deploy ipi and then change that to a upi cluster or vice versa? I think is one of those trick questions because there's really really not um any nuance of ipi or upi within the environment Think of upi as user provision infrastructure So if I use a provision the infrastructure, I can can obviously do that, right? You know, you can Set up all the resources you need um To perform a successful and deployment of open shift vice versa if you use ipi to have the installer provision that on your behalf You could do that as well the trick is is What are you trying to manage on day two? Like what are you trying to go from installer provision to user provision because the cluster on day two is nearly identical? I want to say 99 and 40 hundreds or ivory soap identical So you're still going to use a lot of the same operators that would essentially manage Resources a good example is say the ingress operator on aws. It would still be managing the um network load balancer for start out apps or ingress On day two you could disable that, right? So as part of that operation in the operator you can disable that Likewise, you could go to the internal registry and say I want to use different storage You could Um, I'm trying to think of the other thing. Uh, you could stop using machine api some machine sets, right and do manual modes So I think it just depends on what you're trying to change I don't think it's a I'm going to convert a upi to an ipi or upi to an ipi like there's not really a notion of that It just depends on what secondary level services you want to enable or disable Got it And I see here, um So usami who's same apologies for butchering anybody's name Is it possible to use ipi with an external load balancer at the same time? And I think the the inverse is true and what what I was thinking is you were saying that is, you know, we see people ask Can I use the integrated load balancer of ipi with a upi? deployment on premises And I think what you just said was more or less along the lines of Yeah deploy ipi and then just don't use the machine sets, you know to to scale nodes It's a little trickier in their question. I think I think what they're probably asking for and maybe I'm mistaken or reading between the lines here My guess is it like for instance, they did a vmware install where we would have the Keep alive the ha proxy doing load balancing for the cluster um I'm sort of wondering are they talking about no, I'd like to really use an f5 after I deploy the cluster That's definitely what they're asking. I I asked a separate or I added on to that So yes, you are answering their kids. Yeah, so so that's that's the trick. Um I want to say you you probably are the most experienced on this, but I'm gonna I'm gonna sort of Flubber through it There's no good way to manage that. I'm aware of the internal People have dha proxy setup. I believe it's just you like going through mco to Basically tell it not to work anymore, but I don't recall what other problems that digs up as as you do that I think it's technically possible and I'm sure someone's probably done it You probably have some more better insight and I do want this So to answer your question, um directly Yes, but no, um, so what kathryn is saying is is true technically you could go in and using mco you could basically remove or disable the Keep alive d functionality that's associated with the ingress a endpoint and then Basically move that virtual ip address or the dns name associated with it to an f5 or a citrix or whatever external load balancer using um But that that goes back to the whole, you know, now you're you're Breaking or or deliberately modifying that opinionated You know ipi installation process and Should you really be using upi in that instance? And if you want to continue to do things like automatically scale machine sets, well, great. You can add that day two So the real answer here is in the way that doesn't, you know, deliberately break core, you know, ipi functionality Is to simply add a second domain and then point that domain to the the external load balancer So if you know the the default ingress is star dot apps So maybe you have a star dot prod or a star dots, you know, something And that's hosted on i'm going to pick on f5 right so an f5 load balancer So when you create your routes, you simply say that they are managed by that external, you know, that second set of route instances or excuse me ingress instances And then particularly with our partners who have certified Operators words are heard at the moment certified operators, right? They'll do things like automatically updates that external load balancer configuration For additional worker nodes as they get provisioned read all of the things that they normally need to do So it is possible. It's just a little bit different than you might be expecting Hopefully maybe Yeah, maybe to take that one step deeper because I always I always sort of think the Sometimes it's a misunderstanding of why we even use this in the first place so The reason why we have these services as part of the ipi deployment and they're not on the upi deployment Is upi we're we're sort of at that point of assuming you're you have control of your own You know infrastructure, so you're probably going to bring your own dns You're probably going to bring your own load balancer chances are you have an f5 or or something equivalent since that's you know, what we're We keep talking about here But I in the case of ipi We still need a service To automate the bring up of the cluster. So the the reason for this has to do with The whole inception problem of how do you bring kubernetes under management? If you don't have kubernetes running right so We have this notion of a bootstrap node And what that is is our our temporary control plane now We need to be able to during the pivot from the temporary control plane to the permanent control plane, which is your three control plane nodes that you end up with on our running cluster is we need to be able to perform tasks against the api server And at that time you really don't know where the api server is running, you know, what's running somewhere It's got an api dot, you know cluster name dot domain name But you don't really kind of know where it is. So what we use is a load balancer And it could be performed a couple of different ways. You can have a load balancer You know with health checks to to you know with a with a bunch of dns Names below it or you can just use ron robin dns really doesn't matter per se on the on the bootstrapping operation But what do you need to do is when you resolve api or api int is actually the right one here You have to be able to get to the right running control plane so The way we do that is we have the master in there and the three masters and the bootstrap node And depending on where it is in the cycle Someone's going to be responding So without an on cluster service, we have no way to provision An external service to do that as part of that bring up. So that's sort of our work around to bringing kubernetes Under management of kubernetes. It's the whole bootstrap process And that's why we're leveraging on cluster services for internal communication. Yeah So jumping back to some questions and i'm falling way behind on chat here my apologies um So dean has another question that I think is an important one here Other than not having access to dhcp. What are some of the main oppositions we see customers have against? using ipi And I see some of our other audience members chiming in here with reasons so Welly saying not knowing the name right both of nodes or I guess of nodes for compliance and dns approvals Um, let's see keep alive d plus ha proxy floating ip fail over time I mean, we have somebody asking in chat about you know, they have a pool of mac addresses And this is the only pool of mac addresses are allowed to use. I mean, that's a reason right like Yeah, so katherine being you know being the product manager are what other things do you see or hear about in that respect? Yeah, um a lot of it. So definitely dhcp is one of them And this is this is an argument we get in all the time.  So it's it's even more specific But it's really more of the cattle versus pet mentality, right? And I think in some environments, you know, where you're very strict and you can't have dhcp It's it's definitely going to be a lot more restricted on how you assign things what you let on the network So it it sort of breaks this paradigm of dynamic Pew on capacity, you know, this whole thing that we have with ipi. So that's one of them And that's a big one I would say the other one is credentialing could also be sometimes challenging Where they don't want to automate a lot of stuff They want to make sure that like credentials are locked down as hard as they can And then sort of just give just enough to get a cost drop and running And the way we do it today, I would say good or bad. I'm not going to sort of defend this but we require admin credentials For provisioning a lot of the things today. So sometimes that's a little bit of a rub for folks and I I think it's understandable I don't I don't what we're not trying to say otherwise But we are trying to improve upon that which will help A number of customers who are using UPI move to IPI So I think there's there's definitely some work there and it's in the other one that I've also seen Is sometimes some of the architectures are very restrictive that customers need to work in work in Good example is like just throwing gcp out there. For instance, I don't feel like that's kind of enough face time today um It uses something called typically customers use something called cross project networking. Well It sounds great on paper, you know, you create all this you create a shared vpc with all your networks in it And you share it out all the other projects Or open shift in a different project The issue is that you lock the account that's provisioning open shift down From accessing just beyond reading the networks in the shared vpc So it can't make any changes. You can't update any firewall rules. I am Whatever you can't pretty much create anything. So ipi is under the assumption I'm going to create everything you need to be successful in having a perfectly running cluster out of the box Well, if you can't create things like firewall rules or you can't figure I am I mean you pretty much broke the model So that's another reason why sometimes the restrictive natures of the architectures by locking things down Prevents automation And and there's really sort of no good way around it. You just don't have the right permissions as the account installing open shift so, um We've only got about eight minutes left and I think we have a hard stop today chris. We have a very hard stop Yes, okay, so I want to do a bit of rapid fire with questions here So for any questions that we don't Answer here on the stream or if we, you know, have an incomplete I'll make sure to put all of those into the blog post So Friday morning on openshift.com slash blog just look for the blog post that summarizes This this particular episode and we'll have all of those inside of there um, let's see Any option to use ipi plus external load balancer other than router sharding unfortunately know Although I think the assisted installer folks are working on the ability to do something like that Basically be today when they deploy they use that integrated Keep alive d load balancer functionality I think I have heard that they are working to be able to add the ability to specify an external load balancer as a part of that And catherine, please feel free to jump in and add anything if needed Um So if I have nodes on over slash rev I can't add bare metal nodes I've kind of answered this Yeah, so in chat. So and this is one, you know, Catherine again, I see you answer this question all the time I answer it probably just as frequently which is um, and you've you've already said this We can't mix infrastructure types So if if there is or let me be more specific If there is a cloud provider infrastructure provider integration configured Then you can't mix infrastructure types. So if you deployed say vSphere ipi or upi or rev ipi or upi Then you can't add a physical server to that because It would not have the same, you know, cloud provider infrastructure provider integrations available to it and therefore kubernetes not open shift kubernetes won't allow it to join the cluster Yeah, so maybe maybe just taking that one step further. I think technically You may be able to get away with it and rev because I don't think they implement a Kubernetes cloud provider yet This is the one I hate because I hate saying you can and then if they ever do down the road and it breaks things Everyone's going to be mad and come after me But the the reality why it actually doesn't work. It has to do with the kubernetes cloud provider And anyone that implements a node lifecycle controller Will essentially think those nodes aren't supposed to be part of the cluster It'll basically say hey, you get this foreign node here. I don't know what this is And it actually removes it, right? So it doesn't know how to deal with the integrations on that It doesn't It knows that it's different and unique and special and it thinks it should never be part of the cluster so until The kubernetes itself as you mentioned has the notion to ignore node types that are external to The cloud provider you've deployed on or the provider you've deployed on Isn't it to be a cloud provider, but the provider you deployed upon It will never allow those nodes in the cluster. So it's a physical limitation of kubernetes And I we get that question all the time like I just want to grow a metal node with VMware. I just want to You know, so anyway wraps galleon reeves So I see your comments in here about rev going away in favor of open shift virtualization and all of that Please reach out to me about that. Um, I'll I'll you know, we'll have a conversation about that And what the future holds and how we can help address that so andrew.solovan at redhead.com or D me on twitter practical andrew and we'll set that up and we can have that conversation. I think I saw The pm for that in the chat here, so I'm sure he's aware and we'll loop him in as well Let's see. I'm scrolling through chat quickly Just to make sure I'm answering the the question from ricky about code and his students needs Okay um, so hosea Open shift delivers as a ready cluster day two Configuration is another level of automation the client needs to map business logic kind of difference So I think hosea and christian have been having a conversation around get ups here I'm keeping up with the we're trying to keep up with chat Um Or go see So good use case You sef for an ipi installation in vSphere is there no Option to distribute control plane virtual machines on different esxi hosts So that's a question that's come up quite a bit recently And katherine again, please keep me honest here and feel free to add on so red hat created the machine api Provider for vSphere So if you look in the machine config operator repo, and I'll I'll dig up a link if I can here before the end of the show And post it and included Basically all the functionality there So today it has no awareness of the underlying cluster topology or settings or features or anything like that Basically, it says what cluster do you want me? You know What's the path in the infrastructure the vSphere infrastructure? Do you want me to deploy these vms to and that's what it does it doesn't Reach in and ask, you know, hey, what are the drs configure? What's the drs configuration for this cluster or anything like that? Um, I don't know whether or not that's on the roadmap. Honestly, I would be a little surprised if it's on the roadmap I think there's an rfe for it because that's pretty complex and I think that Different people have different preferences or different desires there and we don't want to presume Right what that should be or something like that But I'll let Catherine speak to that if she Sure, sure. Take the take the good ones. Um, yeah So so yes, there there actually is an rfe on this. Um, I will tell you there's some Technical limitations that need to be fixed right now In the cloud provider. I don't want to sort of blame anyone, but I know that there's a bug there that To be able to use something like say multi cluster Which is what a lot of folks would like to do and I think it's a good one So there's the good reason is the scalability to hit that There is also the the idea of Sort of multi vcenter. Let's just call that a fantasy right now I think that's one's a little too far out But the notion of multi cluster is definitely one that we want to look at We did do Sort of like a poc to figure out if we could do it with upi But even upi isn't going to work because you have to hard code the user name and password of the center in the cloud provider, which is Who in their right mind would do that? So that's a bug that needs to be fixed in the upstream Before we could even say that we would bless that as a poc So I I think you know, I hear the the question. I hear the ask It's come up with a number of customers We want to try to do something but right now we need to fix some fundamental Implementation issues before we can even look at figuring out We sort of offer that as a as a deployment method Okay, and I I'll see if I can dig up the RFE and I'll include that in the the summary blog post as well Yeah, there's a there's a like I think want to say like there's three RFE's in it and they're all have different Desires so they're not even common Among people what they want to do. Yeah All right. Well as christian just reminded us in chat. So we've only got oh well now less than a minute left So yeah, uh, thank you so much Catherine for coming on today I really appreciate you accommodating us short term. I know that this has been a fantastic Episode having you here right and answering all of these questions to our audience. Thank you so much for all of your questions I know that we missed a few inside of there again. I'll go through I'll pull out all those questions We'll make sure to address them in the blog post. So keep an eye on openshift.com slash blog Alex has been getting those published at like 6 a.m. Eastern time or something. So If you're an early riser, you'll you'll be good to go even Awesome. So I will make a plug real quick. I will be guest hosting for chris. Uh, tomorrow's in the clouds with Marco bill Marco Peter. Yes, thank you Who is svp of cx and oh customer experience and operations? So if you have time tomorrow, please feel free to join would appreciate you being there Otherwise, thank you so much everybody. We will see you next week at the same time Bye. I'll thank you Catherine Thank you everyone


Hello everyone. Myself Mahesh Mohanth, I am working in the CSC department as an assistant professor in the Valchin Institute of Technology, in Sulapur. Today we are going to discuss the topic models of distributed systems. Learning outcomes are at the end of the session student will be able to explain different models of distributed systems. Also compare between network and distributed operating systems. There are five models of distributed computing systems. The first one is mini computer model. The second model is workstation model. Third model is workstation server model. Fourth model is processor pool model. And fifth model is hybrid model. First we are going to discuss what is the meaning of distributed system. Distributed system is nothing but the interconnection of different computers or systems by using communication network for resource sharing. The resources are maybe hardware resources or software resources. Now we are going to discuss each and every model one by one. The first model is mini computer model. In this model mini computers, first mini computer, second mini computer and third mini computer. And these three mini computers are connected by using the ARPANET so that they can share the information among them. These are the different diskless workstations are interconnected to each mini computer. These total nine diskless workstations are connected to each and every mini computers. So every mini computer having three diskless workstations. So there is interconnection between diskless workstations and mini computer by using this communication network ARPANET. Now if any diskless workstations want to log into this communication network, first it will be logged into this mini computer. Then it will become a remote machine and share the resources in this network. So this is the extension of centralized time sharing system. First user must log on his or her mini computer. Thereafter he or she can log on a remote machine by Telnet. The main purpose of this model is resource sharing. Just I told you that sharing of the hardware resources or software resources, just an information databases or high-performance devices. The example of this kind of model is ARPANET. The second model is workstation model. In this model different workstations are interconnected with each other by using communication network so that each workstation can share the hardware and software resources among this network. Now each workstation is a single user PC. Here we can migrate any process. Means what? Process migrations can be take place. If anyone node is overloaded or it will not be having sufficient processing power. At that time that work should be migrated or that execution should be migrated to another workstation which is having the higher processing capability and it will be in idle state. So here we can process migration is the main advantage of this workstation model. So in process migration user first log on his or her personal workstation. If there is an idle remote workstation a heavy job may migrate to one of them. So actually there are major problems in the workstation model. First it is very difficult to find the idle workstation. Then second one is it is very difficult to migrate a job on to the other machine. And because on the other machine the remote machine that was busy executing some other process in another workstation. So there are three approaches they are considered. Suppose if the another machine is executing some process. Sharing of resources between the remote process and local process. Either this machine will be share some resources in the network system or kill the remote process. Just third one is migrate the remote process back to its workstations. This is called a primitive process migration. The best example of this model are the Sprite system, X-Punt system developed at Xerox Spark. These are the some distributed system examples of this kind of model. The third model is workstation server model. In the workstation server model different workstations and some servers are interconnected by using some communication network. As shown in the figure there are 100 gbps LAN should be connected to these workstations and the servers. So the workstations are executing the some workstations are this full workstation some workstations are diskless workstation. This full workstation means what they'll be having some hard disk and diskless workstation means what they will not contains any hard disk. They are executing their procedure by sending some parameters to the server and at the server side the process will be executing and the result will be redirected to the workstation. So in here three workstations are shown in the figure and four servers are kept. So the first server is file server, second server is HTTP server, third server is cycle server and fourth database server. So these servers provide different kind of services to the different workstation as per their requirement. So we can increase any number of servers here in the server side and we can add any number of workstations in the workstation side means what we can add number of workstations. So here more scalability in workstation server model. The client workstation most are diskless and few are diskful. Graphics, interactive application processed in local these are the all file print, HTTP and event cycle competition request are sent to the server. So desired operations can be performed at the server side and the response is sent to the desired client. So server mini-computer so each mini-computer dedicated to one or more different types of services. So every server provide different different kind of services. For example data DBMS server provide all the database related services, file server provide all the file related services. So this kind of HTTP server provides all the web services. So these kind of servers are kept in the server side for providing services to the client or workstations. Actually there is a communication between the client and the server can be takes place in the following by using following methods. So RPC remote procedure call here the one procedure from the one workstation is called from the another machine. So the process will be written at one location and that will be executed on the another location so by calling its name. So this is called RPC. Second method remote method invocation. Here we can change the runtime parameters. So RMI is the most important method of this client server communication model. A client process calls the server process function. So client process always called the servers process for the execution. No process migration is invoked. Here there will not be any process migration mechanism. For example network file system is the best example of this kind of model. Now just I'm asking one question to all the students and you have to pause your video and write down the answer of this question. What are the advantages of workstation server model advantages of workstation server model? This is the cheaper model. This this diskless workstation are more preferred than diskful workstations in the maintenance point of view. Installation of new software by using the file server flexibility to log into the any workstation and request the services request response protocol is used to access the services. It does not need process migration facility. A user has guaranteed guaranteed response and workstation are not used for executing the remote processes. The V system is the best example of this model. The next model is processor pool model. Here the diskless workstations are connected with the number of processors by using some communication network. So client they log in any one of the terminal. All services are dispatched to the server servers necessary number of processors are allocated to each user from the pool, not suitable for a high interact application run server allocate desired servers to the client. So here the run server would decided which processor will be allocated to the which workstation or which client. So in processor pool model advantage utilization of more processing power greater flexibility that explained without need to install anyone computer disadvantage it unable to process high speed interactive applications. Amoeba and and came Amoeba and Cambridge are the example of this kind of network. Last model is hybrid model. The workstation server model hybrid is most widely used for building distributed application. It performs simple interactive tasks such as editing, job sending, males and executing small program. Processor pool model is suitable for jobs in group of user who need massive computations. Here hybrid model combination of workstations server model and processor pool model. It is based on workstation server model but the addition of processor pool of processors. The processor are in the pool are kept dynamically for large computations. This also give the guaranteed response to interactive job by processing them on local workstations. Now there is difference between network and distributor operating system. Three features are considered for this different system image and autonomy and fault tolerance. In network operating systems, the multiple system image will be there means what in different operating systems are kept on different workstation in distributed system only single system image will be existing. Autonomy is high in the network operating system. So local operating system at each computer no job global job coordination that will be autonomy is low in distributed operating system. That was single system wide operating system global job coordination. Fault tolerance is very little in the network operating system. That's why unavailability grows as the faulty machine increases. But unavailability remains little in the faulty machine increases in distributed operating system. So references. Thank you.


And straight now to Riva State, where the fight against oil bunkering has taken a step further. The communities and security operatives now go from the upland into the Creek State strike camps of oil thieves. Now these followed the meeting between the 23 local government chairmen and security agencies called by governor, Nisamweki, at the government house in Port Hackett. Details in this report. As early as seven in the morning, Joint Security Task Force on illegal refineries moved from Port Hackett to Ocraca Jetty for another round of destruction of illegal oil bunkering sites at Issaqa Community, which is about 20 minutes journey on water by speedboats. A large part of the area has been deserted as a result of activities of oil bunkers with aquatic life and mangrove swamps destroyed. To this end, the chairman of Ocraca Local Government Area of the State, Akura Turbin, declared war on illegal refiners in the area, saying all camps must be destroyed. At a mangrove area used by the illegal refiners in Issaqa Community, Turbin said every dump site must be destroyed to ensure that the menace of soot is eradicated. He stated that over 15 boiling points and five illegal refining sites have been destroyed with the use of swamp buggies. Yesterday, I've been in close contact with all the touchdown rulers, chiefs, CDC members. On his part, Chairman of the Task Force on illegal refiners, Ayo Tamunotoye, dismissed reports that he's been patronized by illegal oil bunkers. I don't think that will take place because in the first place, no bunker has come to visit me. We've not discussed anything of such like that. That's why we're here, to destroy all the equipment they use in doing this illegal business. And we're advising them to stop because the hazardous, I mean, you cannot quantify it. This act has caused a lot of people cancer cases. We have increased number of cancer cases in river states.  The council chairman said all hands must be on deck in the fight against oil bunkering popularly called Bofiah in order to reduce emission of toxic soot in the state, urging residents to give credible information to the council authorities.


Hi and welcome to the session. Let us discuss the following question. Question says, prove that the following functions do not have maxima or minima. Function g is given by gx is equal to log x. Let us start with the solution now. We are given gx is equal to log x. Now differentiating both sides with respect to x we get gx is equal to 1 upon x. Now we will find all the points at which gx is equal to 0. We will put gx is equal to 0. Now gx is equal to 0 implies 1 upon x is equal to 0. But this is not possible for any real value of x. Hence we get gx is equal to log x. Does not have maxima or minima. This is our required answer. This completes the session. Hope you understood the session. Take care and keep smiling.