So welcome everybody, thank you for coming this afternoon to the talk. Our topic today is the Dow of Bisq. Bisq is an open source project on top of Bitcoin. So it's a big change from the previous talk, no Ethereum. And Dow is one, how has this happened? Okay. Dow is one of the components of Bisq, which is right now in testing phase and is going to be launched in near future, so a few weeks I hope. A few words about myself. So I'm a, as I said, I'm originally from Israel. I live in Berlin in the last many years. I'm an mathematician, I have PhD in mathematics in the area of dynamical systems and differential equations. And in the last few years I was doing consulting about cryptography, decentralization, consensus protocols. And the other stuff that I was doing, not for profit, is being involved in open source projects. For example, Bisq. And the specific thing that I did in Bisq is being part of the team that designed the Dow of Bisq. Bisq. I'm curious, so if you can raise your hand, how many people here have heard of Bisq? Or know what Bisq is? That's a much more people who, when I gave a talk two months ago, it was less people. That's good, that's good, that's good. Bisq is a peer-to-peer marketplace for exchanging Bitcoins with other currencies. And when I say other currencies, I mean crypto currencies like Bitcoin Ethereum, Bitcoin Monero, but I also mean Fiat. So you can also use Bisq to exchange Bitcoin with US Dollars or Bitcoin with Euro. Now you may say that, okay, this is very boring. I mean, there are lots of places that you can exchange Bitcoin for other stuff. What's special about Bisq? And the thing which is special about Bisq is that this is a software. So from the moment that you downloaded the Bisq software, we are out of the pictures. There are no services. We don't give services, we don't communicate. This is also why I personally, Bisq is at the centralized project, so people have different views. I call it a marketplace and not an exchange because when you say an exchange, people think of very fast transaction. Some operator that does something, even in the centralized exchange, usually the operator does something, has a website, interface, something, we don't do anything. You download Bisq and you're on your own communicating in the peer-to-peer network with other people who download Bisq. So what does it give us? First, it gives us privacy. When you exchange something with somebody, the only person who know that you did it is the other person. So it's not a non-imity because if you exchange Bitcoin and Euro as somebody who knows your bank account, it is a privacy, which means that nobody besides the sides who are in the deal know about it. The other thing that you get here is censorship resistance. So we are not part of the trade. We cannot do anything. We cannot censor you. And the third thing that you get is if the software is well written and the protocol is well designed, you get security because your account cannot be hacked and exchange cannot decide to lock your money. The other part of the talk is going to be DAO. So I don't think that I need to ask how many people here have heard about DAO because this is a much more common, common concept in blockchain. DAO is a decentralized autonomous organization. And it has three parts. Organization is like, I think, people know what it is. It's a group of people that decide to work together towards some common goal.  And this solution is great. I mean, it works very well. It's not always fit for some kind of new internet communities because if you look at BISC, we have people from all over the world, from the States, from Europe, from Israel, from other parts of the world. Some people I don't know where they are. Some people I don't know their real identity. If we decide to register a legal, like a traditional organization, it is unclear so much in which jurisdiction we do it. And the moment that we also choose a jurisdiction, it will kind of influence us, give some people more control because they will be closer geographically to this jurisdiction. The other thing, sorry, so what we try to do in a doubt generally, in my point of view, is to take this legal framework and replace it with cryptography, decentralization, peer-to-peer network, and protocols. And then you may say, well, that's nice. I mean, to replace legal system with cryptography and protocols, but why do you need it?   We make a software. We can just put it in the internet. We don't charge people to use the software. Why do we need it? And there are three reasons that we need a DAO. One of them is, though we don't have income, we still kind of have of internet assets. We have a domain name. We have social media account. We'd have an email. Somebody needs to manage that and we want the people to manage that not to steal it. And the DAO is one of the things we're supposed to ensure of it. The other thing is that while the organization, the software is free, the organization doesn't give any service, there are people in the community who give services like mediation to other people in the community. And we want somehow to give the people who, so we want somehow give reputation and the DAO ensures that. And the last thing which is very important is that, again, while it is free, it is also a software in a very charged area. And design choices of the software are important. I mean, if the developer makes the default, the developer has a lot of influence of how people use it. And we don't want one person or one small group to do the defaults. And the DAO is, again, one of the things that's supposed to decentralize this governance and decision-making process. So I would love to go straight into the DAO because that's my passion, but I cannot speak about the DAO of BISC without speaking about BISC, so part one, BISC. So I heard about BISC a long time ago, I think 2015, but I was not involved in any way and then the first time point that I got involved was a year and a half ago in this place. This is Parallelny Police. It's a hacker space in Czech Republic. This picture is cool and I have to say that the building in reality is almost as cool. So the picture does it justice. They call themselves Institute for Cryptoanarchism and once a year in October, they have a conference. So this conference is half technical, half political, half economical. I do not identify myself with any political point of view, but I go there because I get to see there's lots of really interesting stuff. So there's lots of libertarianism there and though I am not so much into that, I like to hear about it, I like to hear about all the alternative stuff. And a year and a half ago there was a talk by a co-founder of BISC. His name is Chris Beams. And I think the title of the talk was how to boost up a DAW. Back then I was doing kind of a side project of DAWs which was never down like most side projects, but I had lots of thoughts about it and I had lots of doubts. And I knew the problems of how difficult it is to make a DAW which actually works, scalable, functions and all this kind of stuff. So I came to the talk and next to me set another BISC developer and during the talk I got into what happens to me normally in technical talks, I get grumpy. Like he says something and I'm like, no, no way, let's not talk. And after the talk I stayed talking with this BISC developer and while in general I'm a very nice smiley person, when I get to kind of theoretical discussion I become intensive and sometimes it gets some, people need sometimes to get used to it. And I think that I was very intensive with this guy I was asking question but how do you do this? But this wouldn't work until at some point he just told me, hey man, you wanna maybe look at our design papers and see what you think. So I took the papers, I went on the red like for three, four days then I spoke with another co-founder of BISC, Manfred Karer and we changed some things, we updated a week pass by, we made a few more talks, a month passed, they asked me some questions, I get some more input and as time goes I found myself more and more involved in the design and development of BISC and after eight, 10 months I think that I was already saying that I'm a BISC contributor or a BISC core developer however you want to call it and I'm not saying telling this story just to show that I was in a cool place although I was, I'm telling it because I think that like in first time I meet people who are in an open source project and they know how you join an open source project but then I also meet all the people who want to join but they don't know exactly how you begin with it. So that's one way, you take some component which you like, you think about it, you speak, slowly you get into the community until eventually you are part of it. This is what BISC looks like. It's a screenshot from the software. No surprises here. I mean if you saw some kind of exchange or a place to buy and sell Bitcoin that's more or less how it looks like. There are asks or bids. The difference begins in behind what happens behind the scene because there is no server there is peer-to-peer network and also what happens when you actually do a trade because there is no optimization here. There is no operator that does automatic matching and makes sure that the money transfers, et cetera you have to do it yourself and what the BISC software tells you is it tells you how to do that. So let's take an example. That's me. That's a picture of me that was drawn when I was 20 years old. I already didn't have much hair but I still didn't have a hat. And I want to buy Bitcoin. So I broadcast via the BISC like some kind of announcement that I want to buy Bitcoin and then some international stranger comes back to me. Now I don't know what the international stranger looks like but I assume that he looks like this because I don't trust international strangers and neither should you. We discuss. I mean, he took my offer and we agree on some kind of exchange. I give him 100 euros. He gave me a 0.1 Bitcoin which is a fantastic rate for me. So the international stranger is actually very generous and then we go to the BISC software and the BISC software tells us actually how to do this transaction. So the first thing that I do is I put a tie because I don't do business without a tie. And the second thing that we do is we go to the BISC software and we open a multi-sig account in Bitcoin. So the software actually has like a Bitcoin wallet embedded in. We usually use this one.  So now the trade is a bit better for him but we put the Bitcoin that he was supposed to sell me which is now a bit less, which is not good and security deposits. I put security deposits, he put security deposits. The security deposits are in Bitcoin. This already means that to do use BISC and to do the whole trading protocol I need to have some Bitcoin to make the security deposit and that's true. We needed for security and I'm not sure if there is any way around it. So if you have zero Bitcoin and you wanna use BISC you should get something at least to pay the security deposit first. Then once we did the multi-sig account so there is money locked there. We go to the software and the software tells me to give 100 euros to the bank. Great. The bank, when I tell the bank to give the 100 euros to the international. So now he has my 100 euros. I don't have the Bitcoin yet because it's still locked in the security deposit. So in the next stage he tells the software that he got the money. The software tells him, well, you guys go and you unlock the security deposit, you unlock the multi-sig account. I get my Bitcoin that I bought plus the security deposit. He gets the security deposit and we are all happy. This process is slightly simplified, of course, because there are security risks here but I don't want to give the full trading protocol. I should have it. We have about 1,001 security measures in the protocol and I hope it's well thought. We are, of course, happy for any security problem that it has. We have, for example, beside the security deposit we also have some ideation protocols and arbitration protocols and we have, if you wanna sell Bitcoin for euros in the first month, you think you can only make offers up to 100 or 400 euros in the second month a bit more and third month a bit more. So you cannot just begin and do huge deals with it. Bisk, so the work on Bisk began in beginning 2014 right after the Mt. Gox accident. It might be a connection, I'm not sure. And it took about two years of hard development until the first release was in 2016 and, of course, when your first release as you find out that nobody use it. Then the numbers grew up a bit with time. In December 2017 there was a jump because the Bitcoin blockchain community went crazy. So all the exchanges were happy. Met the bidon afterwards and in the towards the end of the year it started to grow again a lot from the Monero community who started to exchange Bitcoin and Monero. In January there was the launch of Greencoin which Bisk was one of the places where people actually traded at. So we were very happy. And I should say that we have smiley, nice community right now and I think it's a great time to join the community because it is big enough such that if you go to the Slack, if you go to the forums, mailing lists, stuff are happening. It's not boring, but it's small enough such that everybody knows everybody at least by nickname and you are not overswept with information. So it's easy to follow. Bisk is developed, it's written in Java. So Java developers, please come to our Slack and join the process. We need basically also non-Java developers. We need everything of everybody. So people who write documentations, who do social media, who do videos, everybody are welcome. We are a group of smiley faces. So please join us. So there is a smiley Bisk developer in the crowd right now. Now we can go to the Dow of Bisk, chapter two. And I already talked a bit why we need a Dow, but in general when people ask me why do you need a Dow for an open source project, I begin with a story that you know.  You make a tiny demo and you show it to your friends and your friend says, oh, that's quite a cool idea. Let's join. And now you're three people. So you work together, you make an MVP, you release version 0.011 or whatever version it goes. And suddenly more people with it joins you. And then a few users and you become more people and more people. And then this happens in almost every big enough open source community that doesn't have any structure. And this does not happen because engineers are strange or social people. I think it happens because we are human. So there was a book that I read earlier this year. It's by Yuval Noah Harari. He's like, he's an Israeli. He's I think kind of the poster child of Israeli history world. He, like, there is a course in the Jerusalem University of introduction to the history of the world and this course was traditionally given by a dozen professors until he came and he was just teaching the whole course from beginning to end. And in this very interesting book, there is a point about communities. And he speaks like, you know, how big community people can make just with communication, direct communication. And he gives there a number. I think it's 50 or 80 or 100. It also depends on personalities of people, et cetera. But there is a limit. That when you reach to this limit, you need some kind of social structures, some institutions, some stuff that people knows a way to make a decision, a way to people to know that they belong to the same community or they don't really never spoke to each other. And that's where you need a structure, a DAO. So not a DAO, an organizational structure. If we are a big enough community of developers, we can have a traditional organization. That's option one. And I already spoke about it. It's a fantastic option. It's worked for many cases. I think that in the case of biscuit was actually caused problems because we are all over the place. And also we don't have a bank account. An organization needs a bank account in some country. Who of us will do that when I have to trust them? It's a bit of an issue. The other thing that you can do is just use an online platform, a service. So GitHub as an organization option, which we use, and it's good. And you can add to it more feature. And eventually you can really manage your project with voting or whatever the online platform offers to you. And it's okay. And I think at the first time it's okay to say that my experience with online platforms is that it's good for a short while. So when I join a platform or some service, usually I am happy for a month or two, a month, a half a year, a year. Every service that I ever had at some point I got annoyed by. They did something which I understood that I don't have control. They changed the terms of usage. They locked my account until suddenly I have to pay and it was impossible to migrate. So I don't like platforms, but I use platforms because in the internet you cannot really do things alone nowadays. I cannot run my server at my home. But as a community, I think that you can be alone. So if you are many people, you can do stuff alone. So P2P network can be a bit like a server.  So that's for me the DAO, the alone solution or at least an effort. There are many ways to look at the DAO. So DAO is very popular right now in the blockchain world and you go to different people, you got different definitions and even I kind of always change here. How I look at it, it's all point of views. Not one definition. I'm gonna skip it because of time and I'm going to go to what? So we have a DAO, what does the DAO does? For this I have screenshots, which definitely could have been better for resolution, but I hope you see something. What you have here is people making compensation requests. The BiskDAO has a token and you use the token for governance. So for voting on the season, you need some kind of token. You get the token basically by contributing. So the more you contribute, the more you have, the more tokens you have and the more tokens you have, the more you can vote. And this is compensation request. For example, this is me, you don't see, but here I am making compensation request for 100,000 Bisks and here after the proposal stage is over in the DAO, people go to the voting stage and downvote my request because they don't want to give me 100,000 Bisks because definitely I tell more jokes than contributing. What else we do is we have kind of bundled rules. So this is all from the test net. The data here is like fake. It's not live, but we have bundled rules. So like Twitter operator, mediators, community managers, if you want to be one, you make a bond in tokens and then if you somehow misuse your trust, the community vote to take your bonds. So it's kind of supposed to make us a possibility to find people from the community who misuse the trust of stealing the Twitter account. We also can bond reputation. So if the internet stranger, for example, would give a big bond for his reputation, then I would feel a bit more secure to make transaction with him because I know if he cheats me, I can go to the community and prove that he cheated me and then they can take his bond for the reputation. So that's another thing that the Bistler is supposed to do. And the last thing which I didn't take a screenshot, I think, is a protocol parameter, which is super important because we have a trading protocol and we want to update that. Right now, big updates are kind of a hard fork. People really have to reinstall the software and if you just take parameters from the Dove and it's all about voting and nobody really makes a long decision, the community make a decision and things are being updated without a software update, just the Dove is being updated. Nowadays, when people speak about Dove, so there is this tweet from Alexander Sander, I think from two weeks ago, he's a film developer and this was a fantastic tweet. It's a series of tweets and the first one says that 2019 might just be the year of the new Dove on Ethereum. I would like to highlight a few on-chain governance experiments that I'm excited about and then it goes on for a few Dove stuff on Ethereum and each one of them in a really nice few lines, he kind of sums up what they do. We are not on Ethereum and our governance, I'm not sure if it's called on-chain but my point is that nowadays, when it comes to Dove, people are really curious about governance. So I have to speak about governance. It's another kind of part two and the goal of Bisk is to have a meritocracy. So people who can't attribute it to the community should make the decision. This is our definition of meritocracy and the question is how you do that, how you make decisions, the answer is voting.  I'm not going to speak much about tokens because I saw so many very nice, great projects that once they entered the token, this was the only thing that they spoke about and I don't like when it happens. So the last thing about the tokens is that you can also get tokens so people can exchange tokens and the question is how do we do the exchange of the tokens and what we do is kind of outsourcing. So we do collared coins on top of Bitcoin. I think that's it for about tokens. Tokens are necessary for us to know who can vote and it's necessary for people to want to contribute and get compensated and maybe able to sell the tokens so they can get compensated in Bitcoin. I don't want to focus on tokens because for me personally it's not the main thing that I'm in the project or I'm into DAW. Sorry. So the third part is how does the DAW work? There is implementation and the most important thing about this DAW is that the second order DAW. So it's supposed to be more scalable. The question is what do I mean by a second order DAW because it is not a well-defined term and one way to look about organizations for the purpose of this talk is a series of records, series of decisions and you can like order the records. So this set of records was make first and this second and this and this and this. And in general you have records plus some organizational rules. That's a way that for the purpose of this talk I look at an organization. Now if you took all of this thing and you put it on a blockchain then you have our own chain DAW which is great but not scalable plus we use Bitcoin. We cannot put those things on Bitcoin. What we can do is put hashes on Bitcoin. Many, many, many, many, many, many, many hashes. Every proposal, every hash of every proposal is put on Bitcoin. You can use like all pretend to put hashes. The hashes of the votings are put on Bitcoins.  So is it scalable? Kind of, kind of. It's more scalable. It's scalable enough. I mean it's not going to be a method for Google because Bitcoin has a finite amount of transaction that it can do. So for a huge organization it won't work.  It works for BISC, for this stage and this side, this size. So it's scalable enough for us. It's scalable enough for probably more 100 organizations like BISC, not scalable forever, but it's a first step. Then our BISC block, so this series of decision is carried in first phases. Every phase is described in a number of Bitcoin blocks. So we have some kind of amount of Bitcoin blocks where people can make proposals. Then an amount of Bitcoin blocks when people have blind voting, blind voting such that nobody can manipulate the results by looking at what other people do. And then there is the last stage of reveal votes. And the result of all of this is a BISC block. The BISC block, like the whole BISC block cycle takes about a month, more or less, depends on the BISC, on the Bitcoin exact, on the block creation times. And it results in a new BISC DAO block where the information of the block is in the P2P network. And the hashes of all the information is to verify that in the Bitcoin. There is still a question of how do you do it because how do you manage the votings? How do you know exactly which data is on the block? What happens, especially what is very dangerous if somebody puts a hash on Bitcoin but does not publish the data on the BISC P2P network? And for this we do two assumptions in the design. One is that we can get the Bitcoin data. So everything which is on Bitcoin, we assume people can read and it's available. The other thing we assume that the stuff on the BISC P2P network is available for people if a big amount of the participants of BISC of the P2P network has it. So when we design the protocol, we have to make sure that if a big amount, either with a big amount of people have the data and then we know that it's available for the rest of the community or if people don't have it then it's not so important. Like let's go, sorry, I'm still in this phase, let's look what happens. Like if I want to now make a proposal, compensation request or something, I hash it, I put the hash of the proposal on Bitcoin. So in the end of the phase people go to Bitcoin and know exactly what they are supposed to vote on because there are like some amount of hashes. They may not know what is the proposal because it may be that I put a hash on Bitcoin but I never really broadcast the text of the proposal on the BISC P2P network. In this case, the default vote is no. So if people don't have my proposal, they will outvote it and then it doesn't matter that other people will not have it in the future because it's not going to be part of the organization. Then when this phase, proposal phase is over, I go to the blind vote, I take all the proposals that I know from the Bitcoin and I take the text that I got from the BISC P2P and I vote and I encrypt my vote. I put the hash of the encrypt of the vote on Bitcoin. So then I know how many people voted. There is a risk here that I will not publish the encrypted vote in BISC P2P. So maybe people will think that I voted but actually they will not have the encrypted vote and they will never be able to decrypt it and know what I wanted to do. Which is why in the last stage, we do two things. One, we put a decryption key on Bitcoin. So we do it in one transaction. Put a decryption key on Bitcoin so people can decrypt our encrypted vote. That's great. Second thing, we take all the encrypted votes that we got. We combine them together in one block. We give it, we hash it and then we also put this hash on the Bitcoin. And then people can go and see which hash is the most and this will be the hash of the block that most people in the BISC P2P network has which means the data should be available. It's again a slight simplification naturally of the full protocol and if you wanna read more about the BISC DAO there are two places to do that. One of them is the BISC network slash DAO. You get all the information you want for people who are users, technical, not technical, links to technical documentation, long specification and then there is my analysis which I wrote independently and I put on my GitHub. It's quite a high level analysis but not so long, I think five or six pages of the BISC protocol. We're supposed to go to explain how it works and convince you it's safe. And I think that this would be it. So thank you for coming. Yeah, that's it. Hi, thanks for the presentation. Just wondering how do you handle Bitcoin forks and also can the voting be disrupted by miners for example by discarding certain transactions? So you say how do we handle Bitcoin forks and the second part is? Can the miners affect the voting by for example blocking certain transactions? Yeah, it's a good question. So I think there are Bitcoin forks that were like in the first stages of the BISC. It was early stages, it was quite central. I mean centralized, there were a few developers and we just made our decision. For the future I hope that when the DAO comes to action there will be kind of a voting inside of the DAO because there is also general option therefore general votings to make a decision which of the fork we want to use. And then the question about censorship. Yes, we cannot make Bitcoin miners to accept the transactions. However, this is a general Bitcoin problem and I'm not sure it's a problem because you do have right now enough miners to accept the kind of transactions that we do. So even if some don't want it, the transaction, the voting period is quite long. So hopefully some miner will agree to mine it. Hi, thanks for the presentation. Is that DAO going to deal with the trading fees of the system? So in which way are you going to deal with the trading fees? I mean BISC has also trading fees, right? Yes, yes, yes. So if DAO is going to deal with that or it will be just as right now? No, so right now the trading fees are for compensating. It's go for the arbitrators, not for the organization because organization doesn't exist and doesn't have any revenues. There are two things about it. First thing of all, there will be a parameter of the DAO I think which is trading thing so you can vote on it and decide to change it. And the second thing is that we are changing the arbitration mechanism to a mediation mechanism which should lower the trading fees and would also give it an option to pay it in BISC tokens to the mediators. So it should change. However, exactly how it will change, I think that the answer would be clear in about two, three months when this thing is really launch and we see what the community wants. So the idea is that it's supposed to give you a tool to make community decisions. We have here a developer one second. We have here a developers who write right now the new trade protocol. So how is it going to be? Can you wait for the mic? You hear me? I do think actually for your question that for instance transaction fees, things like that, those are the kind of parameters that the DAO will adjust. So yeah, that's part of the purpose of it. Any more questions? Thanks. I have the question. Is there any mechanism to prevent someone from voting multiple times or buying tokens to vote with? So you can buy tokens to vote with? Yeah. The idea in general, I think like most voting blockchain mechanism is that 50% of the coin holders are good people. If more than 51% people who hold the token wants to make bad votes, they can do that. There is one thing maybe to say about the whole vision of a DAO, it's not a blockchain. I mean, so I present a series of blocks, but that's not the idea. The idea is to represent an agreement in community. And if somebody will really buy most of the tokens and try to manipulate votings, the community can decide what they fork. So that's one thing. And the first question was, if somebody can vote multiple times, so I think the protocol allows you to vote within the period only once with each token. Yeah. So you cannot vote multiple times. Yeah, but if you create multiple accounts, then you could probably. Yeah, the votings are weighted by the amount of tokens that you have. So if you create multiple accounts, I mean, it's a linear sum, it won't matter eventually. But a good question, thank you. Thanks. Any more questions? All right, let's thank K.L. again. I mean, I don't come from cryptography, but every Israeli mathematician has to do cryptography at some point of his life. I use community. And I changed to cryptography, and now I do a little bit of consulting like enough for me for income, and I spent most of my time here. I'm not going to leave all of this. But yeah, I will try. Thank you, the first time I saw this. You didn't play that game for you. How long have you been living in Darlington? 9 years. I did that yesterday. Okay. My master didn't do it. I think highly of him. So long. Okay. Ready? Paris, France. All right. Okay. This is your bottle. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Have fun. If you need to put the microphone, I'm afraid. Is there something to talk about? Oh, A.M. A.M., I think you left us. Yeah, I didn't click. Awesome. Thank you. Sorry. Should I test? Can you guys hear me in the back? No. That's good. All right. I'm going to mute it. Now, before 15, you have iPhone hour slot, which means 20 minutes 40, 25 questions, and then 5 to switch to the last quicker. If you want, I can use 5 minute sign. Yeah, okay. All right. All right. Next talk, we'll start in a couple of minutes. It's by Sean Tabrizzi. It's about substrate and open source framework for building blockchains. All right.


Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast I'm in studio with my intrepid partner and co-conspirator Scott Bernstein. Hey now. I'm Jimmy Buccellato aka the doctor We also have Ben in the house. How you doing on the wheels of steel Roberto was in here earlier helping us get set up I don't know if he's gonna jump in but anyhow, we're really excited about our special guest this afternoon we have Frank Fiordelino on the show and Frank and I were just talking off-air about the the labyrinth of Relationships how we are related through marriage So we're gonna get into that the history of his family the history of the Buccellato family talk about our common ancestry and going back to Sicily, but Frank was someone who was born in Sicily immigrated to New York and because of his family Heritage and lineage ended up becoming part of the or at least affiliated associated with the Bonanno family in New York So he's had a very interesting Life and he's gonna share some of that with us. We're gonna talk about his experiences authenticity here Yeah at the original gangsters podcast we go straight to the source. Yes people like mr. Yeah, Peter Lee Fiordelino who lived it and And and you know Lived a movie script. I mean that's what we say a lot of times when we bring these guys on that they're actually like living out This surreal existence and then if they get out on the other side of it and they can provide insight or perspective to people like us It's it's it's really special. So thanks Frank for joining us. Yeah, thanks Frank Thank you for having me guys Good evening Yeah, I don't know. I've never I never looked at it as a movie script at all matter of fact. It was like I Was always fascinated with the movies because especially gangster ones And it's funny. They talk about Imitating life Me and my friends growing up. It was more like life imitated art, you know So what do you go to the movie? What do you mean by that? Like you you you guys like What that's what we wanted we wanted of what you know what I mean. Yeah, you were watching art We were like they say, you know, people get offended sometimes when they have mob movies and Certain Italian groups and and fair enough. I get it. They're like they make us look bad and people go well It's art imitating life. We were doing we were doing it the other way around we will watch that And so that's what we want to do. You know, we want to rob that bank. We want to kill that guy. We want to become We want to be come as big as pull that Rio and good fellas, you know what I mean Yeah, I mean I other researchers have referred to this as the Godfather effect that once the Godfather movies came out They started real wise. Yeah, I started internalizing that It's sick. It's cyclical because when it all started when Hollywood first fell in love with the gangster movie genre it really was art imitating life and then as The years went on and and pop culture evolved and and like Frank is saying by the time that the 70s and 80s hit It was you were going to the theater and then trying to act out what they were telling you when Initially, right 60 years before that it was the paradigm was was reversed Right for most people of most people a little bit older than myself It was the Godfather and I'm 52 years old for me It was good fellas, you know, I came out of that movie theater. I was like God.  I was brainwashed. They had me. No, I Agree, I mean, I remember being Italian-American, you know, growing up teenagers seeing that movie and And there's a lot of links between the Vario crew the Lucchese crime family and then the banana group that Frank came from Oh, yeah, they worked together on the famous Lufonza heist. Yeah, and then, you know Bruno indelicato who recently just got a prison was married to Jimmy the gents daughter That's correct. I went to school with his younger son. You gotta remember. Yeah, two kids Frank and Jesse I was the school with Jesse Frank was murdered later on Jesse's a good kid Where where it seemed like Frankie took more of his dad's path in life where Jesse did not, you know Um, I grew up in a neighborhood where everybody lived in so like back to like watching Goodfellas coming out I think it was like 1990 if I'm I'm not mistaken.  Yeah, tell us about that environment. I mean that give our audience like paint a picture for them because I think that's a really interesting way to put it that the The stage was already set. But what what do you can you expand on that? Oh high school was was like what a what a surreal experience I go to high school in 19 in 1985 and and then I always say it got it got he breaks out got he mania is just But and not only that I'm going to school With two of his kids the kids from his neighbor from the newspaper boy to the Whoever, you know has some kind of connection Not only that I went to a school where a lot of made people's kids went to Genevieve kids Colombo kids, you know They all went there. So with the God he ever I came from a very very secretive like yeah This is what our family might back that I'm figuring it out at 15 pretty good This is what we're into so we don't talk about what yet. I'm looking at the other end of the lunch room And I'm seeing these kids double kissing and doing things like if you double kiss the year before they might think you were and not wrong with that They might throw you a gay or something, but that's okay. That's okay. That's fine You know all this Hollywood was coming up at a time we were so consumed With The mob by the time goodfellows came out you guys this five years from 85 to 90 That that the show was on 24 seven from the night clubs To the streets to the everybody everybody was It was like showtime And just think about the difference between Like I think it's a great way to to illuminate this Phenomenon because he's talking about from 85 forward 85 to 90 that you know God he Blast onto the scene 85 by killing Castellano right the Guido tuxedos Goodfellows comes out in 1990 But think about the difference between go back to 1975 and then go from 75 to 80 75 75 Carl Gambino still alive the old school and you know he's the face of organized crime in in New York City in America Then just 10 years later 1985 like Frank said, you know the the the Gotti phenomenon Explodes and The the entire way that the mob does business the entire way that the mob is perceived It all kind of turns on its ear in a matter of a couple months Maybe you know between Gotti taking over in late 85 to You know The rest of the 80s 1990 goodfellows comes out and guys like Frank then are just kind of often running. Yeah And I don't get me wrong. I was back then I was in all my eyes were wide open It was like man. This was one badass motherfucker I'm talking about John Guido But Taking 60 years back, you know, you have people trying to hide things all the time not trying to make it known that this is this life existed And here he is saying it does exist and you're looking at it Yeah, I mean he was really unapologetic about that And he I think he deliberately wanted a new paradigm that no more hiding in the shadows You know Carlo Gambino or remember Sopranos when he was he say junior with his moldy sweaters Living in a non-descript house like we want got it in your face. Well, at least in the movie in your face Cozanostra Well, I'll give you I'll give you James James for example is It's a great this would be his great cousin who's a What's up, you know, but you're a lot of Joe but you're a lot of used to be a nigga back there and you're a high-ranking member of the Banano family You you could pass this guy if you didn't know him a hundred times and he did not give you one inclination that he was part of any criminal organization Forget about the mob and and he was a very powerful man him his family they go back to they're actually one of the pioneers of organized crime In my in my town of Castellammata their goal for and them along with the Boventry family, you know Joe banana always tries to put that on himself that His family was one of the pioneers of of And he got it half right of the mob in my town half right because his mother was a Boventry Joe Banano's Mother was in my career Yeah, that's correct and let me set this up a little bit because I don't really talk about this on the show but some of our audience members May have read my book where I talked about the Buccellato family. I don't really talk about it on the podcast So some of our members audience members may not be aware of this, but the Buccellato family As a history in this topic and including, you know, my own relatives and We trace our own relatives As a history in this topic and including, you know, my own relatives and We trace our history back to the town of Castellammata del Golfo in Sicily and so does Frank that's where his families from Frank himself was actually born there But a number of other prominent members. I'm sorry families in So Nostra also come from Castellammata. You may recognize some of these names, Bonanno, Magadino, Bonventre and there's several others. So that's a good point of departure here. Colorado happens to be a Oh, right. Yeah, it actually happens to be the president of Italy today. He's more of an anti mafia guy these days, but his dad was a I guess I'm saying a little bit of a crooked politician that you will and one of the most powerful in Sicily Yeah, and he may some research indicates that he was actually a made member of himself, but that's you know, that's correct And it's likely but right Sergio Matarella, who's the president of Italy right now is from Castellammata And Ben you can get the siren the old bit siren up here because the president of Italy his mom is a Buccellato Oh, here we go. So if we want to name So if we want to name drop here Well, you want to laugh it's like we're only 14,000 people and there's more I mean around the world there's many I mean the town itself population is 14,000 In the summertime it goes to about 100,000 with the tourists, but I mean the locals were for 14 and change. So that's pretty pretty Fascinating I read somewhere and I read this I don't know the fact but that baseball player Joey Gallo. Yes, his mother is also Castellammati Oh, I mean that makes sense because you know that we're going to geek out here a little bit but we were talking about Nino Buccellato who was the former couple mafia of Castellammata A cousin of my grandfathers His wife or I'm sorry his mother was a Gallo. So and I thought they were from Alcamo, which is No, no, no, this is mother. So the Gallo would be the father mother. I don't know his mother's last name. She's actually born in Italy. Okay, okay, but I've heard that name I've heard of Gallo being in Castellammata and Alcamo I guess is my is my No, no, no, I'm not doubting it with no no means. I just don't know. Yeah, you know, I hadn't heard that about the baseball player. That's interesting though Right the Bavarian trees are famous from the beginning of time the good killers in the 20s Well, they call it good something killers. Yeah, the good killers I talk about that in my book a lot actually because they were at war with the Buccellatos they were at war with my family Right it goes to show how much bullshit Joe Bonanno was screwing in that book. He was born Bonanno was born in 05. Am I correct? Yes So he's born around 05. He claims that when he was born his birth bought a dollar branch piece between the Buccellatos and the Bavarian trees Like, you know, he was kind of like a mob olive branch, but the truth was they were killing each other 15 and 20 years even after hearing Williamsburg And there's there's Undocumented but there's some people that feel that it was actually Bernardo Madarella that made that peace between both of them Both of those clans, you know, and they differ in a lot of ways. The Buccellatos and Bavarian trees The Buccellatos were more like my side of the family where we were more mountain people Livestock hands-on and where where where The Bumper Ranch is more and more of an educated political side of the mob if you will Yeah, they were more urban I would say Oh, they were, yeah, well urban we're talking about how many miles they were from the town. We were from the mountain Yeah, you know, you have the Degregorio. There's not much distance But yeah, yeah, definitely Yeah, I mean they talked about the the dove of peace that would have been 1905 Well, you know, that didn't really work out for my great-grandfather who was killed in 1917 by the Bonventre Magadino Alliance Absolutely, so that's just him trying to and it wasn't and he's trying to say the Bonanno family came to peace No, it was the Bonventre family. It was your mother's side. Okay, the Bonanno family are good people. They're still Bonanno's in my town, but they weren't The top mob family of Then or even until even the 60s or 70s, you know, I don't I don't know what's going on these days You don't hear many butchalados and Bonventre's anymore, but in Italy anyhow and And the back then it was definitely not the Bonanno the actual Bonanno last name Yeah, so so tell us about how because of our shared history So you you you're born in Castellamari. You moved to New York. You're going to high school there You're you know, you're interested in these movies Bushwick first James right, okay Bushwick first let everybody know that he's talking about New York He's talking about Brooklyn. He grew up in Brooklyn and that's where a lot of this activity I actually lived in Brooklyn till I was about nine of the Nicaragua Avenue area And there was many civilians back then but the but the neighborhood I said it before started deteriorating and You know with the blackouts we had the looting the People leaving the white flight if you will to turn that fuse a lot In the in the south Well, I lived there and that was going on so we moved on to the neighbor in town of Ridgewood Which was Bushwick and Ridgewood boarded each other one was in Queens one was in Brooklyn We moved right over and it seemed like most of the Sicilians that were in Bushwick For a very long time moved over with us as well And this was considered Bonanno territory now now I get it might get confusing because thus far Frank and I have been talking about The Bonanno's as the actual family that the the genealogical family now. I'm transitioning to talking about Bonanno as the crime family in New York and so Similar but not synonymous synonymous terms Yeah, yeah, and I'm sorry about that. I'm trying to confuse anybody it's like I feel like I'm talking to you all the time to understand And I apologize about no no worries Yeah, but by 19 we came here in 1972 so as far as back to Bonanno the leader of the Bonanno family he was sent on his way to Arizona at that time So he we never got to see him. Maybe we the new bosses came around They had to have like two or three voices change around that time. You had the Avala guy Um Right shocker and then you had a homeboy coming out of jail in 74 Carmine Galante And the rest you guys know what happened from there on He was he was on the house with Phil Ristelli and By 79 and uh, I think it was July if I'm not correct. He gets gunned down or August Yeah, just so for people that don't know Carmine Galante was Joe Bonanno's Underboss and and one of his top emissaries throughout the 40s and 50s that went to prison in the 60s Came out of prison in the early to mid 70s and at that point Right I think it was 74 and and Joe Bonanno at that point Quit he was out so Basically when all this war breaks out the second war of the 60s with the actual Joe Bonanno in power And with the with the attempt on his son's life and and it was that They were getting demolished they weren't winning the war and then and they just left a lot of it took place because Carmine Galante was in jail a lot of his Power a lot of his goons went to the other side. They just split up So with with that war occurred if Carmine Galante was around who was a banana loyalist probably not When he comes out, he's like, well, who started this war? Oh and they're putting this guy with Steli there Well, well, tell them I'm the boys now right and for people that know the movie Donnie Brasco They reference a character that you don't see but you hear referenced on a number of occasions Called Rusty who's supposed to be the boss that's in prison And they're referencing Phil Rustelli who Frank has just named dropped a couple times He was rusty and in the mid 70s There was this kind of jostling of power between Carmine Galante who came out of prison declared himself the boss of bosses in New York City And then Rusty Rustelli who actually had the support of the commission and taken over the bananas Galante didn't And he was kind of a row not kind of he was a for all intents and purposes For all intents and purposes he was a rogue administration for for about five years until he was assassinated in 1979 by his own Army of young zips young Sicilians who he thought Were you know had undying loyalty to him and in reality they they sold him out and that was Part of the story that we're telling here about the rise of the Sicilian faction in the banana crime family Yeah, two of my favorite scenes From Donnie Brasco first of all with when he's like that's Rusty's money Michael Madsen is playing lefty or I mean And then when they fight he reads the newspaper Lefty Albatru is like they whacked the fucking boss another thing I'm left out of This thing is pretty now It's pretty I don't know it depends on what what reporters reported on them Those guys were here all the time they had the names back home.  Yeah, we we said this guy and that guy to come you know be our bodyguards He loved he loved he loved that his daughter even said it in one of them One of documentaries we were on the first one The first one she said my dad loved everything about being from the other side So he took He took these guys in like for example because he felt they were they were more loyal Yes, and and you're right. It did bite him in the ass big time And Carmen Galante was customer man easy to so that he had Yes, he was he was he was so much as well and he that's that's why you had that That's one spot for the for the good so many people Right, especially to Bob wouldn't you also say though if we're if we're looking back in and you know Monday morning quarterbacking it if you will That it wasn't a situation in 79 like you said July of 79 Galante is famously gunned down in in the In a restaurant in Brooklyn His his dead body is his Photographed with a cigar in his mouth You know they called him Lillo or or the cigar because he was famously always chewing on a cigar and it was an image that Camilo okay, but there was a Image of him lying dead on the patio of that restaurant with a cigar in his mouth got you know blasted around the world It's one of the more famous Murder images ever But me and my friends later on that later became like the Janini crew whatever guys we long out with kids I grew up with We used to practice like We used to practice like cadavers bodies that famous hits Yeah We'd recreate batting stances I Well, I've done that too. I'm a big baseball fan, but you know that you know the chalk lines homicide Images. Yeah, we need to get drunk and do that and a friend of mine had a barber chair and his apartment. Obviously cut hair We did the anesthesia the castle. I don't we get them all but I'm interested to get your insight. So who am I now? You know what I mean really young So not only did Galante Alienate himself from the commission and the other bosses in in the New York Mafia He alienated himself from his own family by surrounding Himself with these young Younger, you know, he was in his 60s The guys that he was surrounding Himself with were on the 20s. He was in jail half of his life I mean, he chose that to alienate himself from his family Long time before that, but he was really close to one of his daughters Nina and she used to drive him around He was a bossy guy. She drove him around more than the bodyguards You know, the bodyguards were like when he was around men and stuff like that, but he really didn't think he was He probably he said it was time.  They weren't there Yeah, you know, I get a lot of hubris miscalculation pretty fatal miscalculation.  It's motherfucking crazy. They didn't want to get conversations with him or not That he wouldn't care what family you were and he's like, hey, you want to go do this for me or what?  I mean you reference It's not like I run into that man. I don't I wouldn't I wouldn't so called for as far as it's my family You know these people some of them. Yeah, that's what I mean Yeah, I mean they won't come close to you. I mean my roommate in jail was a alley boy Perseco So you're talking about the Columbus here Jackie DeRos was part of the Colombo administration with the Persecos He was convicted of killing wild Bill Cattolo In 1999 Right Danny Dino Colabra Dino Colabra and Jackie this I think this is a good A Good explanation of how ruthless this world is you know Jackie DeRos was best friends with Wild Bill and we stood up at his wedding and I know I know I you know, I hope I don't get I you know Obviously Bill Junior doesn't like him and I can understand that I wouldn't want like anybody who killed my Somebody in my family as well, but I got along with Jackie and I got along with Ali very well Hey, I'm not I'm not hey, that's that's what they signed up for we've talked about while Bill The other day job description if you have a bucket the mob and it in while Bill had had tried to do the same thing Years or years earlier the the Columbus were you know in in the in the parlance of the mafia they were smart to a Let Wild Bill think that you know by guns were by guns and they named him under boss Bill thought that that promotion was you know cementing his status as a future Don in reality, it was just a way to get him to lower his guard and they knew that if Persico was was off the street because at that time Ali a little alley boy was going to prison I believe that summer. It was a summer of 99. Allie boy had to report to prison Yeah, he said something when he came back. They found a gun and alley boys Boat in Miami and he was supposed to turn himself in at that time and While bill had made the mistake of saying something that the first persical faction Definitely did not want to hear out of his mouth and was don't worry I'll take care of things while you guys are gone. What do you mean like last time? So that's when he went to somebody apparently and I don't know nothing about this I know as much as like hearing about it because I'm gonna be very honest I've never ever and I live with this guy for a year when you live with somebody in a Jail cell for a year, you know, you could say well, he said this one now We never said anything.  Yeah back to that and he said something like I'll take care of it And they said that Ali didn't like that and and he said to somebody Well, he's got to go now. Well, they knew they knew that if While bill was left to his own devices and Persico was off the street that while bill was just gonna take over the crime family and and the persico rain would have been over with So they had a couple months before alley boy went to prison and they decided to use those couple months to get rid of their problem. Yeah And they hit was and they hit was given to Dino was also We spoke about this while he's my cousin. Obviously his his mom is my first cousin and she's a fertilino as well But um, he's got so many as well Yeah, I want to just get throw out a pop culture reference for people Just to give people some touchstones here that might not be able to keep up with all the names But you know little alley boy persico. We were just talking about who was one of Frank's cell mates and was a was is a Mafia don ranking but if you if you think of them the show the Sopranos and you go to little Carmine now it little Carmine was was dumb and Little alley boy is not dumb But there's a but there was a parallel in the sense that that whole storyline with the Lupertazzi crime family and Carmine Lupertazzi and trying to pass the the family on to the air and the war breaking out it was all based on the columbos and Little alley boys father Carmine junior persico was the the the patriarch of this mob dynasty Which is really the last mob dynasty in America. It still Exists today to an extent. I Guess I never seen it that way, but not that you brought to my touch. Yeah, it makes sense. Oh Because I also I didn't enjoy the sopranos when I was on the street Obviously what I flipped and then I gave it a shot. It was really good Pretty accurate Yeah, so when you when you were on the street, what didn't you like about it? If they brought too much attention or what what was it that rubbed you the wrong way about it? I remember I remember being with Vito Grimaldi at the time and God rest his soul and He goes I was watching that show he goes.  He just didn't say why because that's who he was But you know why because it was like Mom shit, it's throwing a mirror up to guys. They don't want it. I don't want to see what's there They don't want to see the reflection in the mirror. I mean, yeah, but Funny, I think I like six weeks after because I got a minute. I watched it the other night wasn't bad You go you go That's that's fun And then Grimaldi is a name that we actually you did an episode with John Pinesi recently about the The funeral situation people can go back and watch our video or listen to our episode Let me ask you Frank. I know we're all over the place But something that's interesting to me something in my research that I'm very interested in again is this differentiation between Sicilian members of a American crime family know Usually referred to as zips and the Italian American Members and as Scott and you just talked about we know that there was tension between Galante and and and Rastelli but That that tension can continue throughout the 90s of Messino and others and so can you can you talk to us about what? And it exists today in the it maybe not so much in the Bananos, but in the Gambino's right now. Yeah, you have a It's not a situation. It's gonna break out into a war. No, but you have the Sicilian faction of that crime family Taking control of the administration since the the Goddys have been on I mean on those guys And those guys are close to the families of Palermo I'm gonna be honest with that one. I don't know much about it, but I I'm just gonna give you an opinion on that There was so much Wearing tear on that family that even the guys were like that been there since the 70s and Some of them since the 60s, you know, they're probably gone now Probably said we need to bring this back where it was.  We have You know Peter Gotti as our Godfather. I mean, you know, what are we doing here? Let's and they are I think as a unit they all got together and created their own cabinet, you know So for guys on the street like, you know, we're researching it as as outsiders when you're a guy on the street Yeah, well serious guys. I know I like the serious guys that they put up there and I personally know two out of three. Well, actually three out of four and and They put the right guys there serious guys guys that was there guys at noodle life I Would say three of them went back to all the way to the old country and their families went back So they put the right guys there Right, yeah, okay, and they did a good decision those guys they don't mess around they they know they had to differentiate between the outside and they're in a circles and and The Gambino's are a good place right now if they keep it if they if they if they stayed away, they are You know and not and not what's going on in the banana family.  Yeah, of course Okay, expand on that like they're like try to unpack that for our audience like how that I just think sociologically That's really interesting.  It's Dominic Chaffaloo They they they grow greaseball under his name.  I mean, I've never heard anybody call him that matter of fact Don't do it. It's a bad idea. They call him Italian down. That's good advice. This is the guy you're talking about But a gentleman, okay, I know we you know he's Probably pissed at me don't like me, but we were close in a sense of family like friendship not criminal Okay, let me let me just state that but stuff like that was created by the media It might have caught a phone tap with some basketball saying something stupid like that Zips whatever that created that did we know we were the ones they were talking about of course Yeah, because I mean, I think we're a lot of that Family talking to see you at all, right and and I think where some of that starts is we talked about the banana Oh, we're talking about the the bananas to here and Donnie Brasco a lot of that comes from his book when Joe Pistone says my guys that I was with like Sonny black and then would talk about the zips and they didn't like the Sicilians and Trust me a friend of yours all that crap Fucking book leave a lot of that shit develops with with with pop culture Yeah, not I think that's where I mean that's some of the first time that I and we talked about Claire Stirling's book octopus But I mean Frank and I did off-air But but her book and Joe Pistone's book that some of the first time I became aware of the so-called differentiation between Zips aka Sicilians and the Italian-American guys I hung out with Nikki Santoro. Okay, Nikki Santoro. Thank you mouth accidentally shoots my cousin In that three Captain hit okay, and he's people for fans of Donnie Brasco. That's Bruno Kirby's character in Donnie Brasco Was Nikki mouth right and and he never ever ever just matter of fact He did any he knew about Castello Maris history. He was very it's a history He knew about he was always a In a roundabout way. He didn't say well. I shot him. I said there was an accident And I know what he was talking about without so many words Um, he was always respectful Towards the Sicilians. It's just that, you know, you get these idiots that stay on read these books And automatically just assume that these people don't like each other Yeah, it's interesting perspective to hear from Frank that that the tensions are overstated Yeah, it's a perspective from people like I'll give you an example like my cousin Dino with he grows up in Bensonhurst and It's tough being a first generation Kid off the boat because the only people who get respect really to that to that to that And it's always the same people doing it the third generation fourth generation You know a thing or making fun of the the other ones Especially in Bensonhurst a lot unless their family was connected Then they won't really say anything, you know, obviously But if their father was a bricklayer of a landscaper Or a butcher, uh, look at them the grease for whatever And you know that kind of like you try to alienate yourself now from being Italian And I see my cousin Dino living in in Bensonhurst every time I want to visit him Oh by yearly three times a year I would see him transform into a more of an Italian American just to to distance himself from the other side Because his parent and dad was a hard work in person's mom A homemaker and and I've seen that, you know Yeah, and that happens a lot but within the mob it doesn't I like the I like the uh the nicky santoro anecdote. Um What's that the just you were talking about nicky mouth and then we're uh Just letting the viewers or listeners know that he was Bruno Kirby in the movie Uh, oh, yeah, it was blue. Okay. I always felt in the movie brach dining brosco So I'm catching one day at the bar I go, what's going on? I was going on nicky So he has like his hand on the bar and he's tapping and he's pissed. He really don't get pissed.    He was human boy He was mad. You know, it was interesting though is to think that from that group of people sonny black lefty nicky and that whole 30 years later The guy that became I mean, he didn't become boss. He became under boss But the the brunel kirby character. That's the guy that has the future as an administrator. I mean, sonny black is killed Lefty and I Know I know but but uh in the 2010s nicky mouth rose to the point where he was uh under boss Yeah, okay I know I know I know but I mean what was left of the banana family that they made a little surface again I get it but right there between 2000 and war To about 2008 2009 or 10 They were looking shabby Yeah, doesn't look so great right now. Remember when I was looking at it when my indictment there was 90 people Okay, there was 90 people and um About five captains flipped an under boss and then later a boss So, I mean what could be left? Yeah, yeah, the damage is done I mean, yeah, talk to our audience about that if if uh, you don't mind like when when you were on the street Like your interactions with some of the guys that people names. They'll know Joe Masino You know the really the last godfather of new york city. I mean, yeah, it was it was a superpower Yeah, I'll give you I'll give you uh, well around march of um March of 2002 two They arrest 14 Bananao guys. They arrest 14 guys.  They're ready at this point I don't know if he blew trial yet or he was about to Bureau was the only one that was higher right? Looking at life and you know, they try to flip them. He didn't flip So they arrested 14 more bananao guys.  They're bringing another 23 This is the this is the big one canorella and coper in this one indictment And within a month they both flipped one gives two murders the the uh post the post murder of uh perino and And uh, tony mirror his uncle That's canorella Coper gives ready for this the sunny black murder. So the change move By 2003 of january they're bringing mesino Uh, the tally daniel manjelli later on filicomo and That's within that period of time 2003 2000 Uh salvatally flips to angelo demico. So you got four big guys flipping at this time at this point You got uh demico the tally canorella coper and When louis the guy you're talking about big lu finds out about this on the street He he breaks him to the to the fbi's office and says hey wire me up Because these guys got the goods on me And he flips too Joe goes to trial. Yeah big louis just so just so the audience was big louis wasn't facing a case He he foresaw that a case would be coming down the pike, but he just showed up on the fbi's doorstep and offered a wire up He's living in florid at the time and he came in and everybody was in jail and at the time Joe reaches out and says hey look have a four man panel And he has a four man panel of bosses They're gonna run it together and it's uh joe camarino senior joe sonders um lou Vinnie gorgeous and tony green Out of those four the ones wearing a wire back was big lou and he wears a wire And and brings in another 15 guys in right after that So you got the whole upper echelon of the banana family that gets annihilated All right, um Joe loses trial joe loses trial. I sat on joe He loses trial.  I think it was like eight bodies or something to that effect And he calls for the prosecutor after he's uh sound guilty and he makes a deal So at that point joe moccino becomes the highest ranking member of the new york of any organized crime Italian In the united states to flip and I don't agree. I know I've spoken about this at length and I'm interested to get your Your take on it. I don't agree with that mindset or that deal the idea that they Take a boss And flip him to get the people that were underneath him The whole point is to go up the ladder not to go down the ladder upstream So, you know joe moccino right now No, I agree Is is a free man is a free man.  All right back to that They wanted him also to bring people around them or unsolved murders or Or bodies that were at places that their families want to know where they were and You know, like he wants he wants whatever whatever who was the boy said at uh, barny Whoever they if he could have gave him anything about anybody That was good for them and and he gave a he gave a lot Even um Unearthed a couple of bodies out in Howard beach if you remember I'm not saying that you can't close cases And you can't get your promotions and get your headlines. I I understand believe me. I understand the motivation From a prosecutorial Perspective I'm just saying I don't agree with it I don't know a lot of stuff Yeah, you're saying more sky. You're saying morally you ethically you find it. Yeah, I understand what their motivation is. I get it We try to figure out who's more Yeah, the government lesser of the two evil. Yeah, but at the same time Some of these government people want to get the higher places and and uh, Joe Massino could give him a lot He did. Yeah. Yeah, I mean you're going after Donald Trump, ain't they? We use a bus That's right. So a base. So the what you just described the the administration. It's it's damaged um, and so that's where we get to the point where Eventually Vinnie Gorgeous goes to prison and then Vinnie Gorgeous got Tangled up because he's meeting with Joe Massino who's his boss, right his superior And not realizing Massino had flipped and he'd wired up on Bassiano, right? So Joe Massino was half of Vinnie Bassiano's problem. The other half was this guy. I used to come to our Co-defender meetings call up. He was a lawyer called Tommy Tony Lee And he was this ambitious Lawyer a little guy. He was wanting to be half a gangster half bank when they broke him He was looking at like five years. He they disbarred him and he talked like a like he sang like an opera singer, okay But he would send the message in fact in force from um Massino to uh to Vinnie so that was big and then eventually, of course, they were in the same prison They had him together on that wire thing where um, Joe Massino wore a wire on Vinnie, but those three I was love to read those those transcripts and 302s because I Think that was going on for a minute You know, I'll give you a scenario.  He was a kid in my neighborhood grew up, uh, a little younger than me I said, yeah, I know what about him He goes I said, you know, he didn't trouble sometimes but he was a good Well, he was a tough kid when I mean a good kid. He listened Uh, not that he was a good person, you know, it's a bop So I said the guy I said I didn't think nothing of it So at this point I was the only associate at these meetings and everything He's actually telling me that Well, a friend of mine is asking about him. What's what's uh, you know, I'm like Oh, okay I didn't get it.  And this is Joe Massino brought this up with you Yeah, yeah, at one point we got close and you know, when anybody had to talk he would say don't worry about it We could talk, you know when I was there because everybody was made you understand Yeah, I would be in a co-defendant meeting with uh, willy ravello, uh Danny man jelly Um, Joe and then me and then maybe somebody else I mentioned but that was it Because we were looking at a lot of you know, the the the worst of the crimes um You know, and I was like it went over my eyes that actually kid. I could say what it was it was of asa yellow. They were asking about Yeah, he's he's a he's a guy that's like, yeah, he's locked up now But right yes, he asked me if he's okay. They were they were making them. You understand, you know I know and what I'm seeing what I've heard is that when he comes out of prison He's on the fast track to you know, kind of admin administration that they like him a lot He's a good kid. Dad's the one 200 years. I we have the same godparent um I know him all my life. He was my neighbor uh I think I discussed that with you on time on um nado He's not related to earnest. I oh right Ernie Ernie. I just got caught up in the whole funeral. I I don't even know who you bro, um But uh Anthony, obviously was was that one time like family might still be family with myself. I don't talk to my family but um Yeah, yeah, so he was discussing that with me And and that's where I was at at the time So when all the ideas are good and they made them Then he wanted to have him made When all these guys get taken down then something that I find interesting because of my heritage and my research Things come full circle and you get sal the iron worker montaña another guy who's cast on the moray So like things come full circle back to he takes over in like 2005 I think he said they will live in a fairy tale. I mean sal's a good kid. I remember him. We're very well We were in italy together when we were younger um He was a really young guy that took over the crime family at like 35 He came in his family was pretty legit They were good people, you know, but they minded their business and people like that whatever, um God rest his soul, you know, but uh But I think they was like, oh, he's castella marises and that after all that we're gonna rebuild this family You know, I said it before in 1931. It would be a good idea fairy tale, you know, but you see how that worked out You got the for people that don't know he got deported to canada and he went to montreal and he Tried to take over the mafia in montreal and ended up being killed in And in all the chaos that's been uh going on over there for the last decade and a half Well, he pulled out, you know who I am and yeah, they do. Yeah Yeah, so that that that was that Who was who was who do you think was the biggest? Factor like backing him to take that position was that baldo amato.  I I don't know.  Um, I don't want to contribute to that I think pati from the bronx had something to do with it That's what I said go over there start running things. I want my I want to be surprised pati pati died though. I remember pati I thought he had something to do with getting uh, I I could be talking out of school here I don't consider myself an expert on the bananos. Yeah, but I thought um That faction had something to do with with sal getting in What the bronze faction he was put into the bronze faction and there was that was a strategic move by uh, Joe messina and he probably tell you that these days as well um he He ball ball to propose him that we know But he wasn't going to put him in the same crew with baldo And that's because he always tried to uh separate the the Sicilian faction And and baldo. Yeah back to the galante baldo amato who just Yeah, nothing to do with the bronx. They it's like south you were now in the bronx No, I'm just trying to tell the audience that might not have a scorecard here that the baldo who you just mentioned Was one of those guys that carman galante had around him entrusted as a body as a bodyguard And then he was also one of the guys that looked the other way when a group of hitmen came in and gunned him down Yeah That is true that that you could catch out on the narco wars. I was on the harwin don that was episode one Yeah season two Yeah, let's let's take a few minutes here because we're getting close to wrapping up here Take a few minutes here to promote some of the your appearances on the national geographic Documentary narco wars, which by the way, I I really enjoy that whole series I use some of those episodes to show my students and my gangs and organized crime class And frank you've appeared as an expert on a couple of episodes Talk to us about that. Yeah, they're great. Tell the audience about that Well, it was about the pipeline that that that, um It was mostly about the sicilian war that that that that was going on in the 80s um about a certain, um That don't bother lament day who was head of a three-man panel in sicily at the time when the war broke out And he had to learn how to be a drug dealer very quick and one of the biggest in the world So with that said then they had to look at the angle where they were getting the drugs from And at the time with the afghani russian war We were we were we the americans were allowing A lot of access so from that had went to be sold to the itines which the itines were buying So they could go back and buy by weapons to fight the russians Yeah, it's really an interesting example of globalization Even as early as the late 70s and 80s because the raw opium is coming from afghanistan And then they they process it into morphine and they had labs in sicily and and other places And uh marseille all over the world. Yeah, people think of labs.  Yeah. Yeah They're processing and these guys I like no no that's very elaborate good try Yeah, yeah, it's not like, uh, you know, like bay or tylenol or something like that kind of uh lab But They used to go through syria back in the french connection.  Yeah, people. Yeah, people doing that stuff all the time Yeah, and they could speak the the lebanese traffickers spoke french because lebanon used to be a french colony So they they could speak french with the uh corsican traffickers and the corsican guys knew the sicilians So it's a really interesting example of A globalization but something frank points out and I don't want to go down this rabbit hole necessarily But it's an interesting that was brought up is um The guys producing the raw opium in afghanistan Are also being sponsored by the cia and the state department And they even have the dea agents in this documentary that frank is on where the dea guys are saying that the orders were given To lay off to back off to stop investigating the mujahedin like the afghan warlords who are big opium traffickers Who by the way, that's the sound of the line right which all ended up on 9 11, right? I mean that morphed into Until qaeda and um, I think it's something that it's something that really I think people should be outraged about But we we watch the night that episode. You're really going to be outraged. Yeah, former attorney general kind of The signs off on that but he's 91 years old. He don't care Yeah, I mean reagan was referring to them as freedom fighters and they were really religious religious fanatics terrorist and and Um drug drug dealers and then you know eventually morphed into al qaeda, but um, yeah frank gives his insight You know as someone who who is uh, you know born in sicily and moved to new york and so check out those episodes Those episodes, you know, they show the reruns on on old school cable But you can find them streaming as well, but they're um, they're they're really good episodes done well. They're done well. I had to up to james um James and nick nick the directed they they put it together. They're really good at what they do Um, I I even before I was involved with national geographic Um, they I always was fascinated, but I'm a documentary. I love documentary um, I'm trying to work on one soon a sixth part, but uh Yeah, so I I like that work. It was done really well Yeah, some of the uh, they've got an episode on um Rizzuto in montreal. They've got an episode on galante, which frank is part of they've got an episode on um Long john in filigree. That's a great. That's that was a great episode Um, they've got the episodes on like uh, frank lucas and the african-american dudes and harlem Uh, I mean, it's they got a whole season on the latino drug cartels paul bologna ones that china found as well Yeah, yeah, so it covers it's similar to like what we like to do with our show Like it's not just about the italians or just about the the latin guys. They cover the whole Uh, the whole spectrum. So it's a really great series and then and what I I don't I don't I can't really say much now because everything's in the preliminary stage now But frank and I are working on a project trying to get something off the ground We can't really say much about it right now because it's still in its infancy But frank has got some great ideas and i'm trying to help him, uh, and maybe we can collaborate on something Yeah, it's definitely definitely different but everything i'm hearing from from people in the industry is that it's a great idea and I agree so Um, uh, you'll see I think you're gonna see a lot more frank in the future with different media projects. So, um Yeah, I put myself out a little bit more these days So, uh, I'll be out a little bit more, but uh, I love your stuff. I've seen you guys All your stuff your stuff's great. I love your um, it's three angles james Yeah Yeah, both of you guys I I love I love you stuff. I really do Thank you. I want to come to the play mob. Yeah, you're well people like yourself. You're just in invaluable resources for people like us and and our audience and you know, we couldn't do what We do without being able to pick the brains of people like yourself Yeah, good job. Yeah, and so is there any way uh, people can find you you have like I can't remember Do you have like um anything you want to plug like social media or website or anything? Um, no, no, no, no, I mean, um, not not nothing right now. Okay. I mean eventually which is good. Um, I hopefully will be starting another uh Another six episodes for next year of the national geographic um You know series of the narco was and we'll go from there It and until then um a couple other projects that we we me and you were working on one I got one with tom levec here and um And nadoo my my little buddy nadoo. Yeah, we're yeah, we're friends with both of those tom and jeff Both have their own shows and they they support us and we support them. I tell you something I I don't I don't really gravitate to anybody who If I if I don't I I think it's an art too to talk about history You you need to to reach out to your people and you got to be honest, you know what I mean And and that kid that kid's going for it. He's pretty good at what he does Yeah, we like we like both of those guys and I I know you're going to talk Well as tom as well the old sea shorts guy.  Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I've heard of that But I don't I've never like interacted with I think it's another show out there another video cast, but um, but we know Uh, we know jeff. He's been on our show scott goes on his show all the time We consider him. He's a big fan of ours. He always plugs our stuff We appreciate that and and tom too. I've talked to him. He he always shouts us out He's a good dude as well a supporter of our show So we we encourage our audiences to listen and follow, uh, you know, their their programs as well Um, all right, frank.  I might be missing a couple of people, but I mean, yeah Those a couple of my favorites. Yeah, and we and we'll shout out frank and I friends with some of our bison Out there like angelo and eric and tony the guys we talked about Scott knows those guys too, uh Yeah, griff all those guys. So what up they listen to our show So, uh, make sure everyone out there. Please follow us on social media Check us out on twitter facebook instagram follow our youtube channel Frank i'm gonna stay in touch with you. Obviously. We're working on some things, but we really appreciate your time frank Thanks, frank. Well, thanks for having me. Thank you. Uh, you guys always, uh, bring it. I love it All right, you take care of frank for the original gangsters podcast. I'm jimmy butcholato Take care. Thanks