Hello everybody, I hope everyone can hear me and sorry about a slight delay. We'll get kicked off straight away and welcome to this session. My name is Jonathan Goodhand, I'm a Professor in Conflict and Development Studies in the Department of Development Studies at SELAS and I'm currently convening the MSc in Research for International Development. So what I'm going to be doing today is I'm going to say a little bit about the course and I'm going to give a short sample lesson to give you a flavour of some of the issues that we look at in the course and then open it up to you for questions. So let me start off by just say who I am and where I come from. In a previous life I used to be a development practitioner and I worked in the field for something like seven or eight years in places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Central Asian Republics. And I then subsequently did my PhD research and my work has been broadly on the political economy of violent conflict. But why give me this introduction is that I'm particularly interested in the debates that we touch upon in this course which are about how do we understand the links between policy, practice, evidence and theory. And so why is it important to be thinking about questions around method and evidence? And yeah, here we are. So I suppose in many ways it may seem quite obvious to you if you've had a bit of experience in the world of development's policy and practice. But certainly when I started off in the world of development practice almost 30 years ago it wasn't emphasised so much. Questions of data were not thought about sufficiently rigorously. Questions about the methodologies for developing that data were not interrogated sufficiently. And there weren't sufficient questions about the evidence base for predominant policies and practices. So I think over the last certainly the last 20 years in particular there's been a growing interest in questions about evidence in the world of international development. How do we know whether if you are putting where you should make choices as a development donor where should you be putting your money into have the maximum impact? How do you know whether you're having impact in order to address poverty? Should you be focusing on micro-enterprise? Or should you be focusing on a different field of activity? If you're diffid, should you be trying to address the causes of violent conflict? Or should you be trying to mitigate the effects of violence conflict? All these kinds of questions are linked to questions of evidence and they're also linked to questions of how we develop evidence, how we generate evidence and whether we can trust that evidence to make informed decisions. And so this course is really trying to grapple with those questions about how do we know? How do we make decisions? How do we know what is the most effective place to put money? And how do we think about what international development workers and agents often talk about? The underlying theories of change. What are the underlying assumptions about if you intervene in one area? How do you think, what is your chain of analysis, your causal chain of analysis to take you from these inputs into effects and broader impacts? So that's a very way of introduction that whether you are working as the coalface, if you like, as a development practitioner implementing development programs, whether you are acting as a donor to make decisions about funding, or whether you're working in a think tank, for example, Chatham House or overseas development institutes, or you are actually working as a researcher but trying to engage with development processes. Questions of evidence and methodology come up again and again and it's understanding how to engage with evidence, how to engage with method is a transferable skill that would apply whether you're going to be working as a private sector consultancy contractor or whether you're going to be working for an NGO or a think tank and so on. So what I'm going to briefly say now is a little bit about the course itself and what you would be studying in this course and then I'm going to jump into a sample session plan. So first of all, who is it for? One thing to say about courses at SARAS, they have an incredibly diverse student body and it's a range of different people coming from different backgrounds and different individual and personal trajectories. We have a lot of people who come with experience in the world of developments as humanitarian practitioners, as development practitioners, or as peace building practitioners who want to develop a stronger understanding of questions about evidence and research methods so they can be more confident when they engage with these debates in the real world of development practice. We have quite a few students who don't have experience in the world of development but want to make a transition into that kind of career and they see this as a good grounding for doing so. There are others who've worked in perhaps unrelated fields and they want to make a transition into the world of developments and again see this as a good base for doing so. And finally, there are a number of students who see this course as a stepping stone to go on to further research as a PhD candidate or perhaps working in a think tank as a kind of research and policy analyst and this gives them the skills and the grounding to do that. So let's go on to what it is you're going to, you would learn in the course of doing the masters. Well, obviously research methods is a fundamental part of this and you will be given a grounding in both quantitative and qualitative approaches to generating data building on interdisciplinary perspectives and to enable you to make informed choices about what kinds of methods make no sense to answer these kinds of questions in the field of development and to be able to select and to mix methods. How do we bring together more quantitative methods, large end studies with more fine-growing ethnographic qualitative approaches? Of course, we will be focusing on the technical kind of questions about what good research consists of in terms of rigor and so forth but we're also very interested in how these questions about choices are linked to political and disciplinary debates and these are often contested debates, often based on very different starting points for how you see the world, how you interpret the world and also often very kind of strong normative ideas about what the world should be like. So, you know, this is not just about technical questions of method, it's also about highly charged political questions. You will also learn about research design, so how do you set yourself a set of research questions and create an approach, a research design that enables you to best answer those kinds of questions? How do you present your data when you have developed, when you have done your research? How do you present it in a convincing way to policy audiences or to research audiences? So, we also look at some very kind of practical skills which will be certainly useful after you finish the course about presenting research, about preparing policy briefs for policy audiences. How do you convince policymakers about your key messages? How do you attract their attention? How do you ensure that key messages from a very long complex process of research are captured in a compelling and highly credible way for policy audiences? So, also, how do you pitch your research? And also, how do you develop academic presentations? So, these are kind of some of the skills that you will be taught in the research. And this is kind of the broad structure of the course to give you an idea of the kinds of courses you will be doing and how it's broken down. So, essentially, it's a 180 credit course. Of that, 120 credits are taught courses and 60 credits go towards your dissertation. Let's start with the core courses. So, the three core courses that all students will do which we think are essential to give you a grounding in quantitative and qualitative method. And one thing I should say as well, this is a unique course in the sense that it's taught jointly by the Economics Department and the Development Studies Department. So, you have got very high quality lectures around both quantitative and qualitative approaches. The battlefields of method gives you a broad grounding in different research approaches, both qualitative and quantitative, and a lot of the key debates around the choices of methodological choices. Your statistical research methods and your research methods in the National Development give you a hard grounding in the quantitative approaches in statistical analysis, regression analysis, survey-based approaches. Large-end studies. And so, we have a nice mix of the Development Studies and the Economics Department's areas of expertise feeding into the core courses which give you a platform going forward in the course. You then have choices both from the Development Studies and the Economics Department. There are a few examples given here, but it's a far larger, longer list of some in each department, some close to 20 options in each department. So, you have a big range of options to choose from, normally four options of 15 credits. So, some options may be 30 credits, so that would mean you could choose, you could have a... the options are between two to four optional modules. And this gives you the scope of two areas of personal interest, whether it's kind of thematic areas of interest or geographical areas of interest. So, for example, there you can see you can choose specifically to focus on China, and you could choose on the other and make a choice to look at other... focus on other regions of the world as well. And finally, the dissertation is really the... your opportunity to really focus in on a subject that you really are passionate about, really interest you, and you want to explore in greater depth. And so, you have the first term and a half to think about what that may be. You can spend time talking to different lecturers to make decisions about that. By early in term two, then you will make an initial choice about what your dissertation topic will be. And then by the beginning of term three, you will embark upon your dissertation topic. That gives you an idea a little bit about what you will learn and the kind of the structure. So, to finish off, before we jump into the sample lesson, there's a question, obviously, what would you do afterwards? How will this benefit you in practical and very concrete terms? And our students have gone on to a whole range of different sets of experiences and job opportunities since studying the course. So, it is very, very varied, but this gives you some examples of the kind of positions some of our previous students have gone on to, whether it's through working with official aid organizations in the kind of the donor agency area, such as Difford or World Bank. Many end up working with NGOs. And as many of you will know, there's a kind of a burgeoning area of growth in the NGO sector around monitoring evaluation, around research and evidence. Increasingly, organizations like Difford are putting more of their ODA, overseas development assistance, into research programs. I'm leading a major research program that I'll talk about in a minute, which is funded through funding, because Difford are putting the Department of International Development are putting so much emphasis on creating a better evidence base to inform policy and practice. A number of students end up working with think tanks from Chatham House to the Overseas Development Institute, Asia Foundation. Some go on to PhD research, so the course provides the building blocks. The foundations are going on to a more focused research topic in the form of their PhD. Others may end up actually working in the UK government in areas like the Treasury or the National Audit Office, which are not overseas focused, but based on very important skills that are transferable into that kind of context, being able to interpret data, being able to kind of look critically at data, knowing about research methods and research rigor is something that's clearly very important outside of the international development sphere as well. And finally, quite a number of students are working in private sector organizations which focus on international development issues, whether through evaluation, research, policy advice and so on. And finally, the United Nations is another kind of area that students kind of move into. This is, that's to give you a kind of a brief overview of the course and what it aims to do. I'm sure you may have further questions which I'll give some time for at the end to feedback on. Now, I want to just jump in to give you a kind of sample of a part of a lesson that we teach in the battlefields of method. And this actually is less about method than it is about what do you do with your research and how do you develop a policy brief which aims to have an impact out there in the real world on policy makers. And so I'm going to give you a kind of truncated, a very short version of a sample lesson that I gave to the students in the battlefield of method. And the purpose of this is to, it comes towards the end of the course. So it's the second term toward the end of the second term. Half the students have been exposed to a whole range of different kinds of methods in the first term and in the second term, how do you apply these methods in practice? And in this session, it's really about how do you convert the research findings into a policy brief that can have an impact on policy makers. And this is the outline to give you an idea of what the session is about. So first of all, I introduce the research project that we're talking about in the session, which is a project that I'm leading at the moment. So it's a real-life case study. I then talk a little bit about the questions and challenges of evidence in this area, which is around drugs and violent conflict. We then move into looking at, well, how do you influence policy? How do you make an impact on policy? And how do you go about preparing a policy brief? And we finish the session by doing a task, a case study task in which the students divide into groups. They're given a case study, which is a real-life case. It's a report prepared by the International Crisis Group on drugs production in Myanmar. And they produce a policy brief which draws out the key messages for a named policymaker. So they have to decide who is the policymaker they're trying to influence and how. And this leads to an assignment task in which students have to prepare their own policy brief, which is assessed by myself and is partially assessed work. Okay, so very, very quickly, the research project is one that I'm leading, and it's a UK government-funded research project called drugs and disorder, building sustainable peacetime economies in the aftermath of war. And what we're trying to do in this research is ask a very big and ambitious question. How do war economies get transformed into being peace economies in regions of recovery, or experiencing armed conflict? And we may need to do three things in this research project. One, we want to generate a new evidence base on a set of issues where the evidence base is very patchy and very, very political science. I think there are really very few other areas where there's such a mismatch between the quality of the evidence being generated on drugs and the gap between this evidence base and the mainstream policies, which are deeply problematic and I'll come to you in a minute. We're also trying through this research to lead to new approaches and policy reforms, and we're aiming to build up a network of research institutions in the countries where we're doing the research. And the research has been conducted in Colombia, Afghanistan and in Myanmar. And we're working with research teams in these three countries. We've chosen these countries for very obvious reasons. Afghanistan and Myanmar produce more than 90% of the global heroin production and Colombia more than 50% of global cocaine production. So these are areas which are really highly shaped by drug economies, by violent conflict. And to address the problems of drugs and state fragility in these contexts will have global impacts. So it's the potential to have a very major effect by shaping policies in these three countries and globally. And methodologically there's no time to discuss this now but our approach is to try and work with mixed methods. So gaining access to these borderland regions where we're doing the research which is where drugs are mainly produced, consumed and trafficked is very difficult, because we're working with research teams working in these three countries. We are working on GIF spatial imagery. We're doing ethnographic and survey work in the field. And also we're trying to present our research in novel ways. So we're working with organizations that produce visual narratives, case studies and comic strips as you can see here to try and humanize the stories around drugs. And so one of the things in our course is about how you mix methods and how you triangulate approaches to ensure you counter biases or you counter or minimize the problems with a dependence on any one particular method. So that's really in a nutshell what the research is about. Now just to kind of stand back from that a second and think about what do we know about the production of evidence, the methodologies around the production of evidence for drugs. I mean, as I said already it's a deeply contested and deeply problematic field where you have a lot of what I would call policy-based evidence rather than evidence-based policies. In other words, evidence is driven by a set of concerns of the policymakers rather than drawing upon the evidence itself. And the policy field is shaped really by this bigger agenda of trying to eradicate or to create a drug-free world and this is linked to dealing with illicit cultivation dealing with the demand for drugs dealing with the production of psychotropic substances like methamphetamines and not just drugs which are grown in fields like coca and poppy to deal with the trafficking of drugs and money-lordening which is linked to drugs. What do we know about the kind of the success of these kinds of policies? Well, we know that the worn drugs has manifestly failed and this gives you an example in terms of the demand has grown and the production has grown the health-related risks have grown and the violence around the worn drugs has also grown. So, in lots of just of the kind of a basic level we can see there's some deeply problematic consequences of the worn drugs and it's led to lots of unintended consequences including growing securitisation and coercive responses the growth of the black economy and protection rackets as those involve seek protection because of its an illegal activity. The way that there is what we might call a policy displacement in the sense that more and more money is invested in securitised approaches rather than kind of health-based approaches that there's a geographical displacement that a success in eradication in one area simply moves the problem across the border into another area similarly new substances are developed and there's problems around stigmatisation and marginalisation of drugs users linked to this kind of moralising debate and so we can see very different things going on in the world of drugs from on the one hand much more securitised approaches the war on drugs in the Philippines is a good example to legalisation in Canada and so this kind of consensus around prohibition is fragmenting and there's a growing interest in more developmental approaches how do you make drugs debates more cognisant of the sustainable development goals can drugs and the sustainable development goals be more integrated with each other rather than treating this as a securitised and a criminalised issue can we treat this as a development issue linked to these the pursuit of these the SDGs so that's where in our project we're trying to realign these debates and one of the big kind of goals of this is to try and produce evidence that is going to shift these debates and at the same time in the course the master's course we're continually thinking about how policy and evidence are not technical kind of questions they're linked to particular world views particular sets of political interests and this is particularly the case in the question of drugs so there are very problematic targets in relation to the war on drugs how many hectors of poppy fields have been eradicated how many seizures have been made for drug trafficking and these lead to very problematic forms of intervention there's a tendency to fetishise drugs rather than to think about how they're connected to a social, economic and political context in many ways drugs is a faith based ideology rather than an evidence based set of policies and there's also problems with how we as researchers kind of communicate and develop our evidence based around drugs we tend to sit in disciplinary silos there's not enough inter-disciplinary research on these issues and there's not enough engagement with researchers from Colombia from Afghanistan and I think that's a big challenge that we need to address in the research there's often a failure to translate the findings of research into actionable points for policy makers and we need to also understand the political economy of policy making so policy making as I've already said it's not just about evidence it's also about particular political and institutional predisposition so when we're thinking about how to engage with the world of policy we need to understand the political economy of how policy is developed how issues are framed why they're aimed in certain ways how they get translated into certain kind of actions and how we as researchers can intervene in those processes whether we're talking about understanding the political context about understanding individual actors whether we're thinking about what kinds of knowledge is going to be more or less compelling for particular types of events or humanitarian or drug actors so to finish off and run out of time ready what's the next step we're doing this session with the students is thinking about in light of this is an example of a research project this is these are some of the debates around policy making in the world of drugs and the problems of evidence how do you go about developing a policy brief to shape and influence policy case so one or two quick points I mean the first thing is a policy brief is a short document this is not a long research report it's condensing the long complex research report into a set of key compelling messages that will attract the attention of policy makers and also give clear directions to policy makers about things that they can do in concrete terms as a result of this evidence so you need to be clear about first of all this is a standalone document that can be read without reading the full research report it needs to be clear to the target audience is it focusing on UNODC the UN Office for Drugs and Crime is it focusing on the World Bank is it trying to target say the children fund you know who is the audience try and focus on a single issue to the extent possible it's not going to have much traction if you outline a whole range of different issues and say they're very complex and something needs to be done about them focus down on something that you think A is going to be interesting and attractive to the donor and it's something that they can actually act upon so it's a short a short document two to four pages no more than 1500 words usually and certainly that's how how we sit in this exercise you need to refer to the content of the longer report it needs to be written very clearly and as I said it has to have very specific recommendations and targets so it's a different skill from writing up a long research report and it's something that needs to be designed imaginatively and be visually appealing to include graphs to include text boxes to include photos and maps that breaks up the text and so it doesn't have long paragraphs of text it needs to be able to be something that captures the attention of busy policy makers in a compelling way and then the structure can vary between different policy briefs but a fairly standard approach is to have your key messages up front when this arrives on a policy maker's desk and they look at this they're going to look at the first few sentences and they're going to say okay so what what can I do about this so what are the messages you're trying to communicate here introducing the issue or the problem and then say something about the approach that was taken what the methods were and what the key findings were and what the implications and the recommendations are that flow out of this analysis there is no single correct structure but I think your policy brief will need to have these key components and one of the people who are good at this the most important thing is get your key message in so that they're clear about this they're compelling and they attract the policy maker's attention if they fail to do that the policy maker's not going to bother reading the rest of it you've got to attract them in the beginning so there's quite a skill around doing this this kind of a policy brief which is a different skill from the more intricate and more the long-winded setting up a research report so I think the thing to highlight here as well is that the course is teaching different skills which are which are important whether a researcher or whether you're a policy maker now in the session itself this is your last slide here the students divide into groups and prepare policy briefs first with the example of the case of drugs and the international crisis group in Myanmar and then they develop one based on a research report from Afghanistan so I've gone up too long I'm now happy to answer questions if you'd like to email me jg27 at sarse.ac.uk I'll do my best to answer them


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This is Think Tech Hawaii, Community Matters here. Hey Aloha and welcome back to the Think Tech Hawaii studios. This is Security Matters Hawaii and we are blessed today to have Moses Anderson with us. Put on your big thinking cap because we're going to be talking about the process approach. This is something that was adopted by ISO. It's a standard way to work on your management practices and it's seen widespread adoption. Moses is going to talk a little bit about a way he improved upon that force in the second half of our show. Moses, thank you so much for joining us today and taking time out of your busy schedule. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for the privilege. Thank you. Thank you sir. So this was, I had to go do some reading and a bit of studying for this topic. It's definitely outside of my domain. So maybe can you take us back a little bit? Actually first, give our guests some of your history, I think. Just to kind of get as much as you feel like sharing to kind of give us a feel for how you arrived at this position in the industry. Absolutely. So I actually like to start only from 2013 so people don't know how old I really am. Okay. It's my new strategy. But in reality, for about 20 years, I've been in the field of information security. You know, I started out just like most people. I was a programmer, systems engineer, network administrator. I did all of the techy stuff, hands on. I thought that was life until I figured out that actually managing the processes behind the tools and the people is of more interest to me. And so I went back to school and got a master's or science degree in information security. That's what the degree is. But in reality, the true description for it is a master's or science degree in secure digital business. And so I go to study a lot of intellectual property law, a lot of management system principles, critical thinking, international law around privacy and all what not. And as much as fun as it was being in the academia doing a ton of research in the application of, you know, cryptographic technologies to privacy and video management, I figured I needed to go out to the real world again. And I'm glad that I did. And so I did consulting for Fortune 100 companies in building security management systems. However, as time went on, it became apparent that my forte was actually not just talking cyber security and privacy. It was actually the thinking process behind it, which we call the Celebrated Process Approach. Now the Celebrated Process Approach was what I do to my company around in the year 2013. So I started a company called Shield IS. I had the name before I had the idea. So the name security was already in the name, which is Shield IS for information security. But by the time the company started, I was applying this fundamental principle to management systems that is called the Process Approach. So for those who aren't familiar with that term, it turns out to be that 95% of management systems in the world run on this principle, this way of thinking, this paradigm that is called the Process Approach. And what the Process Approach is really is that whatever business we're running, whatever product we're building, we always have an objective in mind, you know, what we want to accomplish. And in order to accomplish whatever that lofty goal is, we do it by set up processes. And those processes, they look random, they look disconnected, but in reality, if we look well enough, they are all interrelated. And if we can understand the working of their dependencies, doing it, making it about the process, not the ego of the people, making it about the process, not the limitations of the technology, we will build a management system that will outlast the people and see the evolution of technology while always delivering the objective or the purpose for setting up the business or implementing the tool. So that is what Process Approach is. However, the thing about the Process Approach is a lot of us who have taken time to understand it. We understood it because we went to school for it. We understood it because it's largely the way people think in the academia. And when that gets exported into the real world, no one is talking about the theory, people are just talking about the outcomes. And so people are about to be indoctrinated on how paradigms like the PDCA works, you know, plan, do, check and act. People understand such models for continuous improvement without necessarily knowing the process approach behind it. It gets convoluted very easily and already to spend five years or six at the university studying in it. And so what happened to me in the year 2012-2013 was I decided that I was going to simplify the process. The way that I understood it, someone challenged me. He said, whatever you know, if you can't teach it to a five-year-old, you don't know it. That's a good principle, actually. You know, I've heard that before, so it makes sense. Absolutely. So I came up with this visual that I call the PAVE methodology, which stands for the Process Approach Visual Expansion. And so basically it was a way of distilling this amazing mindset, I mean, amazing paradigm into the one-page visual. A one-page visual with three big boxes and six smaller ones with two arrows pointing to each other. And it tells you the story of the process approach from A to Z. And by looking at it, if you look at it with the right kind of explanation, if it's handed to you as a tool, you can go ahead and build a management system, whether for security, whether for service delivery, whether for quality management, whether for business continuity, whatever it is. And that is exactly what ISO has done. ISO being the International Standards Organization and the IEC, which is the counterpart, the partner of ISO that throws out these management systems. That's what they've done. They've taken the process approach and applied it to various disciplines that we go in and out of on a daily basis. You know, every day we're talking about cybersecurity here, privacy there, business continuity, even treasury operations, management and all of these other fancy business areas. And the process approach fits for everything. You know why? As long as you have people who require processes to accomplish their objectives and need tools and technology in the process, you can apply the management system process approach to them and it will fit just right. The advantage that I got out of it immediately was even though my company started only in 2013, before the end of 2015, I received offers to sell the company because of the intellectual property that we had built. And by March of 2016, less than three years after starting the company, just a little less than three years, I sold the company. And that's the beauty of it. The people who bought the company saw an intellectual property that is not only portable, very applicable, and through that they developed other management systems. And one of them I actually championed the development of, which is a management system for IoT, for the Internet of Things. And so the management system principle or the process approach speaks for itself. There is nothing else like it in terms of acceptance, in terms of fruits that have come out of it. Like again, I said 95% of management systems in the world have almost 92% to 93% of international standards are actually built on this process approach. So that's what I've been doing and I want to keep doing this because I see that it helps people and it helps me too. It's amazing. You brought up the human ego component that can get in the way. So was that something that caught your mind whereas if the process is built and adhered to, because it's essentially outputs feeding into inputs which create more outputs and so you're moving sort of in step or linearly through a process, but ego can make someone look at an output and decide, oh, that's not what I thought it was or they interpret it perhaps the wrong way. And then you've got a broken process. Was that something that you saw in this? I mean, I can see the story where the human element is sometimes good, but when you want something's known and how to do it is clear, humans oftentimes should be left out of the way. Oh, absolutely. No, you are absolutely correct. So what I tell people is we don't need people. We need roles and responsibilities. Because if people are not broken down into roles and responsibility with commitment for policymaking and oversight, what we have is chaos. A friend of mine challenged me. Yeah, a friend of mine challenged me. I think it was around 2012. He said that he's understood that what ruins our businesses and our ability to achieve our objectives is an acronym that he calls FEUD, which stands for fear, ego, uncertainty and doubt. Whenever people don't seek clearly, they become afraid. Most of us are afraid in the dark. And when we're constantly in the dark, we don't make the right moves. We make moves that make us look like we know what we're doing when we don't know what we're doing. When somebody calls us out, then we bring out the ego. We keep insisting that we're not going to change our methodology even though it's not delivering the right results. And the way to get fear, ego, uncertainty and doubt out of the way is to introduce such a system of transparency. You see, the paid methodology, pun intended, actually pays the way for the right kind of thinking because it lets people see the reason why they are where they are. And so if I'm in a company and I'm the chief information security officer, I don't have to be threatened by my director of security. I don't have to be threatened by the CIO because I know his roles and responsibilities, he knows mine. We have a risk management process that is well-defined such that each one of us knows the areas of risk that we are owners of, the control owners that we're working with and the process owners that make those controls a reality.  When they're well-defined, they are well-supported. And when they're well-supported, you enjoy more of what we call consistency in execution. This thing is as simple as ABC. And when people adopt it, the question is always, what took us so long? How come no one is telling us it can be this simple? Can you take this one page, this one visual, and put it on like a pair of glasses and start to look at the development that you've been working in and the products and tools that you've been developing and things which just are becoming more and more apparent? Now, Andrew, let me say this. When I started, I started with one visual. And that visual, I was able to apply it to ISO 27001 because that was what most people needed me to do at the time, cybersecurity. But since then, I've been able to map ISO 27001 to ISO 29100, which is the privacy principles, the international standards for privacy principles. I've also been able to map that to 29101, which is the integration guideline for privacy. So a lot of people build tools like base makers, they make up like watches that are smart watches and smart trainers. And all of these things gather sensitive information that are personally identifiable, personal health information. And you don't even know how to integrate privacy principles into those things. How much information is too much? How much information is too little? So who do we report to that we're collecting this? Those things just become so vague. And when people don't know, they make up stories. Or they make up stories that things fall through the cracks. We call them the bad guys. Well, they're not bad guys. They're just not aware of the real deal. And the real deal is adopting the manager principle that actually guides you. I mean, it can put your business operations in cruise control because everybody that comes in, comes in and they already see the path that's been set for thinking, for innovation, and as well as maintenance of whatever it is that we create. So this is not just there for creating things. It is also for evolving the maintenance culture that provides the right training and awareness because everyone within your management system then becomes empowered to become a trainer because they understand that process is enough to tell somebody else. Yeah, and that documentation is a piece often, just at my level with security, a physical security facility, you walk in and there are no policies and there are no guidelines. And it's like as if everyone's supposed to know what to do and somehow magically divine it from the ether. And of course there's confusion when something occurs which slows down response times and maybe people get injured or more people get hurt than could then should have. So it's a big piece. This process engineering plays into human lives and human safety and security more so than people probably understand or think about. And I'll tell you what, we'll take a break but it's funny when we come back, I'd like to, we'll talk a little bit about what stops people from doing the planning. So we'll take a break. We're going to take about a one minute break and pay some bills and we'll be back with Moses Anderson in just a minute. Hi, I'm Rusty Komori, host of Beyond the Lines on Think Tech, Hawaii. My show is based on my book also titled Beyond the Lines and it's about creating a superior culture of excellence, leadership and finding greatness. I interview guests who are successful in business, sports and life which is sure to inspire you in finding your greatness. Join me every Monday as we go Beyond the Lines at 11 a.m. Aloha. Aloha, I'm Dave Stevens, host of the Cyber Underground. This is where we discuss everything that relates to computers that just kind of scare you out of your mind. So come join us every week here on thinktechawai.com 1 p.m. on Friday afternoons and then you can go see all our episodes on YouTube. Just look up the Cyber Underground on YouTube. All our shows will show up and please follow us. We're always giving you current, relevant information to protect you. Keepin' you safe. Aloha. Hey, welcome back to Security Matters Hawaii. We're here with Moses Anderson and we're going through... I think he's spoon feeding us the process approach and he's given you what's important about it so I hope you're paying attention out there today. I had a question about this because oftentimes you get with an organization and you find that they haven't done that base work. You know, there are no policies. They haven't approached a business. It's like, let's open the doors and everybody do something. Which is chaos, like you talked about. Maybe it's just a gift for some people and not for others. What is it about the development of process and procedure? I don't want to talk about the following it because that's a discipline issue. Human resource problem. Developing processes, implementing them, testing them and then keeping them updated. You walk in places and they got the process they built 10 years ago sitting on the shelf and no one follows it anyway. It never got updated. What do you see that stops people from doing it the right way? It's written how to do it. It's not that hard. Absolutely. No, no, no. I'm telling you. Clearly, Andrew, you are someone who sees the problems on a daily basis because you just were straight for one of the biggest problems that this process approach has been able to solve. So the reason why we don't take steps when we are in the dark is because we don't see. So when you're in the dark you move very slowly and sometimes you're not even going to take the risk because I don't want to hit the wall. So the reason why people don't create the plans the reason why people don't implement the processes, if I let's even go to the very basic one, the reason why people don't create documents that they can continue to develop, evolve and follow. The reason why is because people don't know what to write. People find it daunting to just create a manual. It's like you're trying to turn everyone into an author of books and not everyone has it within them to just creatively write stories. But when you hand people the process approach then it becomes very easy. Just look at each box within the process approach and write something about it. So go to your people box. So how many people are responsible for maintaining all the IP cameras that we have? Well, then easily we can take it. The people responsible will be the logistics manager, the physical security director, director of IT. These are the people involved. You have about five or six people. You don't have to write them. They just write their roles and responsibilities. And then the next thing you move to, what do they do? Oh, director of facilities is responsible for working with third parties to make sure that the right spec of cameras are implemented. The IT director is responsible for making sure that the right security patches are applied to the cameras and they're behind the right firewall. Before you know what's going on by just looking at the people and their roles and responsibilities you've already gotten 80 to 90 percent of your process spelt out. And then you do what? You extract the processes, you put it in another section and then the question is okay, when we're doing this, what do we use? Or when we're doing this, we use this mobility server. Okay, so this mobility server what are its requirements? Oh, it runs on Windows, it needs patching. Okay, what about the capacity? If we take it like that, we would have gone from identifying the people responsible to what they do and the processes that formulate and how those processes relate with one another and then end up with the tools and the operating environment that we've created and then it becomes all inclusive. Everyone participates and when everyone participates like that it becomes like a team building exercise when you tell people after six months, hey how about if we review that document that we created together, it's always like yeah, because it's a time for them to engage together again and it's their child. They created it. Most of us, in our right minds, when we have a baby, we don't leave them in the hospital, right? We bring it home, we want to rock it every time and that is exactly what happens when you give people an opportunity to create documents that describe what they committed to that also helps them for continuity so that when they're not there, others can look at it and see clearly what's been going on and so you hire someone and in a matter of weeks they're already doing the job as well as she would want anybody to do it and so the reason why people don't plan the reason why people don't write is because if you just put them in the talk room nothing's going to happen change the life, let them see the simplicity of it. Once it's simplified everybody becomes a champion. I was wondering if it was maybe just a throwback to not giving them enough writing assignments in school, when they're grown up they let you write a page or write two paragraphs when you lay the steps out, you know filling that with words you start with words or bullets and that can become sentences, it's pretty straightforward I'm overly verbose, my problem is I write too much stuff in there and everybody's like oh my gosh, we need to thin this down but it's okay to have too much and you can always edit some out, I don't mind having ego in and I just write it it's interesting I've witnessed this in team members before that and I don't know that they're always in the dark but definitely there's a bit of a pushback for the writing piece, especially what about salespeople, they never want to write a sales plan, why you think that's because we're going to stick them to it so the thing is, the thing about the process approach is as structured as it might be it also leaves room for lots and lots of creativity and it leaves room for creativity, it leaves room for what we call brilliant, for being able to borrow what other people have done you see, because the process approach is a very defined process it's a paradigm I can actually go online and download a template that was written following an international standard built on the process approach and tweeted just a little bit and then it becomes speak for my purpose, you know why the guys who built it, their problems or the problems they were trying to solve is not unique to them it's just that now they've created a solution in the language that I speak if we all speak the process approach language we never have to reinvent the wheel I can take the documents that you have written around configurations management take configurations that you have written around the improvement of performance within sales cycle I can take that which you have written and then apply to my environment simply because I start with what you've defined and I look at the several roles that are within your sales cycle and I'm like no we don't have two of those roles, we only have five but their responsibility is I can distribute it over these other people now these people try to review their script every six months, why are they doing that and then when you look at the reason why they're doing that, they're like oh wow that's why they're doing it every six months we need to review our scripts every three months you see, when you give people building blocks, even little children you give them little Legos and they'll build your house so when you give people building blocks which is what process approach force them that they continue to build now one of the things that came out of this is, you know there is this thing that is called the documentation pyramid that starts, it's a triangle of the pyramid that starts with policy procedure and then what instructions some people call it policy guidelines and procedure, whatever I'll ever grant you like you want to go you see the first time we used that before applying the process approach methodology it was always daunting to people because people are like can't I just write one document, do I have to say this one is policy, do I have to say that one is procedural, do I have to say one is work instruction but guess what by the time we applied the process approach to it we came up with something that is called the EDHP which is the Enterprise Documentation Hierarchical Pyramid which allows for you as an individual within an enterprise to see your roles, your responsibilities and the tools you need the people who depend on you and the people that you depend on in one visual Wow, and that makes it understanding your role and how it contributes, we're big on that in our organization you know, Christine is very process oriented and she writes everything and makes process a bit along the way and she actually has the team responsible do the writing as you've thought about because she wants them to understand how their role plays into the greater role of the company and how each person's role benefits the other department perhaps or the efforts of the other department or whatever it may be and it's been very powerful to watch I didn't lead like that I was the sort of top down guy and nobody leads like that anymore that didn't work so it was great when Christine took over and actually brought in a methodology called traction I don't know if you've seen Gino Wickman but it's a very structured way to do what you're doing, it's not the writing of the process but managing with a process in and of itself that everyone understands and contributes to the organization it's been going on for years now and everybody depends on it it's amazing when you it's like you said when you come out of the darkness and you're in the light it's like wow, this is so simple why didn't we do this forever exactly, no absolutely that's exactly what value we get out of it now since you're talking about performance you see when it comes to performance improvement people have always relied on disciplines like you know 6 Sigma and then you have people bringing in 6 Sigma, Black Belt do you know that at the very core of those disciplines, at the very core of those products they are process approach methodologies about five or six years ago I onboarded a 6 Sigma Green Belt she came and within six months worked on two projects for me one of them was the quality management system and the other one was an integrated implementation of security and service delivery and by the time she was done at the end of the six months she said to me everything that I've learned in my 6 Sigma Green Belt now makes sense and you know what my response to her is I said to her that I will give you the permission to use the outcome of our project, these two projects that you've worked on and the project plan to submit a proposal to Georgia Tech for them to give you Black Belt, she thought I was kidding she did it, the very first submission she made within a matter of days she got her Black Belt because everything that we talk about when it comes to process improvement, performance improvement, quality improvement any one of those things that has got to do with improvement, what you need is a good understanding of management system with a tool like PACE and standards like you know the myriad of ISO standards that we have out there see, be short cut to it I tell people you don't have to reinvent the wheel whatever discipline within your organization that you're trying to improve find an international standard that is built on process approach and they'll spell it out for you, all you have to do is look and implement Wow so these are great gifts that you're sharing with our audience Moses, so I know you've been at this for quite a while what are you doing in your future, where are you headed now giving and sharing and I've seen some of your presentations and you know, thank you for sharing this today as well what's um where are you going next cause we all want to follow by the way, you're going to need a big bus oh yeah, thank you for that appreciate that, thank you Andrew so I've come to this now where I've actually accepted my role my role in all of these things is kind of a solutions architect you know, I've been a solutions architect for several years and every time I try to be more than a solutions architect I try to be something else but now that I've come to actually embrace that and to accept that, I am partnering with another company here in Atlanta called JetPro Partners we'll start another company and we're starting a company that we'll launch in next month and it's called Teneros and that is T-E-N-R-U-S it's like Teneros yeah, so it's called Teneros and what Teneros does is go into management consulting standing on the three pillars of compliance assurance and performance and so those are the areas that we see people struggling compliance, assurance, performance compliance has to do with making sure that the best practices that have been standardized and tried and tested by other people you can adopt that to your business without you learning the hard way that's really the value of compliance assurance is no matter what you're doing and no matter how good you are at it you need to be able to tell other people about what you're doing you need to be able to equip your salespeople as to the security of your product they need to know how to communicate the kind of encryption technology that is within your IP cameras or your video recorders or your VMSs you need to be able to equip your salespeople to tell the world why their data should be running out of your data center and so that is where assurance comes in assurance is a way of communicating with your partners and your clients and the world around you the truth about your security posture is such a way that they're ready to grow with you that's assurance and then the third one is performance people are very happy when they're doing well but no matter how happy you are when you're doing well if you don't find a way to do better you're not going to be happy for long and that is the reason why we want to apply this fundamental principle for creating management systems for designing implementing and managing management systems we want to apply that to these three areas of compliance assurance and performance and that is what Panoros is about and so I'm happy to fully step into my position as a solutions architect helping organizations people who design and develop products people who have products that they're trying to sell or just people who want to see the future because there's not a new one and so if you want to see the future you just have to put a different spin on the past okay and you put a different spin on the past by being able to anticipate the evolving threats that are out there and the degenerating vulnerabilities that we have in our businesses and whoever can do that best tells the future and after we do that we subject everything that we know and everything that we assume through these pipes of the eight blocks and what comes out of it what comes out of it is a solution that no one's seen before but then at the end of the day it's not new it's just a different application let me give you a good example actually hold on Moses, sorry we are out of time already but what I'm going to do is invite you back maybe in Q3 if you've done some time with Tenorus and we'll get an update from you on how things are going over there oh that's fantastic I appreciate it thank you so much and thank to our audience for joining us today what matters, aloha


Good morning, all you smart Christians. I guess for some people in different parts of the globe. Good evening. Good night But anyway, this was this particular video. I actually honestly had no intention of doing I was up and I Excuse me saw something and I thought about so, you know what? I'm going to go ahead and address this I'm going to do my very best not to mention the source of this video the source of of of who I'm responding to because Some people will try to level level accusations that you're only covering or saying certain things about certain people to kind of Get your viewership up or not. Well, I don't need to get my viewership up. I really don't I'm not trying to build off anyone But if someone says something wrong, are we supposed to you know what this guy's platform who I'm speaking about is too big I shouldn't say anything about that because it might make it seem as though I've got the wrong motives Well, that's just silly. No, we we come at and we should deal with anything That is the antithesis of scriptures regardless of who it came from, right? Whether it's a smaller Um, a person with a smaller following or person with a larger following. I'm not I'm not you all should know me by now I'm really not bothered by Anyone or who it is I'm speaking about But for this I'm going to do my very best to not even speak about the person try to say the person's name Some of you already know who I'm talking about and so we'll just leave it at that but There was a question that was posed by this particular person And of course as you saw in the thumbnail the question was If I believe this am I a false teacher if I teach this am I a false teacher? And my response is a resounding yes Now this particular person I label as a false teacher a false prophet not for just one thing or two things But several things it's just a Just a total of some of all the things wrong With this person's doctrine this person's belief I'm not going to get into anything that may be personal about this person's life or anything like that But just this doctrine because Anybody guys can can have a false teaching teaching something falsely doesn't make you a false teacher It's really the pattern of doing so And having an unrepentant Uncorrectable unteachable way of doing so arrogance and pride Now any of those things in of themselves still doesn't make you a false teacher But the bible tells us that we will know someone By their fruit a tree is known by their fruits right and so if all you do is keep giving rotten fruit It may look good May even smell good, but once it gets inside. What does it do? It rots the person from the inside out it gives a Uh a bad impression What ends up happening is the person and this is the this is the hallmark of a false teacher when you give a Different gospel another gospel another way to salvation Now this person will kind of play around with words as though I'm not saying this but just read your bible But then you when you listen to him you'll hear him say things like You do have to be baptized in water to be saved You do have to speak in tongues. Uh anyone who wants it will get it. Well I'm going to cover this and let's just be cleared the person and this person is going to watch this channel He's going to watch the video because he's been watching it. No doubt about it His friends have been watching it And so I want to say this I happen when I'm watching it and you know when you watch a rebroadcast Uh, if you if you check it right, you'll have the the live chats going up and I didn't pay attention to this But there were several people in his video saying go talk to uh, go debate courier smarkerson channel Now me personally, I don't do a lot of debates I'm not afraid to do a debate because the debates that you see on youtube oftentimes No, no, uh, no one is I don't say edified, but the different parties don't come to any sort of agreement They don't change But in this regard, I would love to debate this person I would love to have a discussion now the person has mentioned Has said that he doesn't uh, or he's had all these different debates I can't find I found one time where the person was having a debate with someone else about the trinity I've seen where he's had discussions and these weren't debates And then the person even had the gall to say that the people that he's had discussions with Calls him a brother and and they're they're demeaning towards him as soft.   So Okay, fine. Go on brother. Do do you think and when I say brother? I don't mean brother like spiritual brother. I mean, you know how we say hey, brother Good morning. You get the time brother. Hey, you know where so and so is brother Hey, can you tell me where this story is brother? Not like spiritual brother So I don't want y'all to hear me say that and think that because in no way shape for my fashion Is this person who I'm referring to who shall at the moment remain nameless? Am I referring to him as a brother? He is not all right now He was talking about Mark 16 seems to be his favorite passage And he doesn't seem to think that anyone has called him to the carpet on this or that they always ignore him Now the one thing that he points out is that when people talk about mark 16 That what he does or what what they do is they'll say that mark 16 doesn't belong and that bothers him Now he never addresses that issue with anyone Why they bring up the latter portion of mark 16 not not being there Because and you would think that a person that that is uh a pastor or a scribe to be a pastor would at least know these things You can disagree with it But at least be aware of it and the argument surrounding it and why scholars the people who have given him His bible Why they believe that that those latter portion of the passage of mark don't belong and that you could at least intelligently Um discuss it or argue to say this is why I believe they belong So what i'm going to do is i'm not going to even act as though they don't belong I do believe that the latter portion the last 11 verses of mark 16 don't belong But for the sake of this discussion, let's just go ahead and use them now The reason why they're there is because likely they are a scribal note of someone maybe a scribal note Maybe someone's personal Manuscript where they put their own Writings in it. They may be part of what's called these lectionaries. We don't really know But I think with a person whoever the scribe was a person who wrote was trying to convey the heart of I would think I'm going to give them the benefit of doubt was trying to convey the heart of the gospels And so let's just go to mark chapter 16 verse 16 and let's go ahead and jump into this He says Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved but whoever does not believe will be condemned And of course, he's going to camp on verse 17 and these signs will accompany those who believe in my name They will cast out demons in my name. They will speak in new tongues. So now Let me give you his point. His point is starting in verse 16 that whoever believes and is baptized Meaning the person has to be baptized Will be saved but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Well Notice what is conspicuously absent from the latter portion of verse 16 The first portion of it says whoever believes and is baptized But the latter portion says whoever does not believe will be condemned What about a person who believes but it's not baptized? Will they be condemned? No, again, it's absent baptized is in the first part portion of verse 16 But not the latter portion. Well, why is vert why is baptized in there? Remember guys, I've said this before in greek You have what's called the ep exegetical chi where you're going to have two things joined by the chi To say one thing in this case Believes and is baptized. Okay, and so The issue is The believe in the baptized part go together They cannot be separated a person who believes is baptized a person who's baptized Believes which is why the second the latter portion of it does does not include baptism because that is Given now the part the problem with this person almost said his name the problem that this person has Is he equates this baptized portion with being water baptized that a person has to be dipped in water The reason why he goes over that somebody says to turn my volume up. You can you guys hear me well enough? I'll turn my volume up some more How is that is that is that better? Uh All right, I I got you, but let me let me know if uh if uh that volume is good or not So now the reason why he goes with it I'm gonna go to a couple passages that he goes to and this just shows why it is important that if you are teaching That you have first been taught yourselves that you can go through the scriptures and that you understand the scriptures well enough To set to teach someone else, right? So he's gonna go to two passages Uh, John three and then also Acts two thirty seven. So let me go ahead and pull up the uh Let's see Matthew, uh, two thirty eight. I'm sorry not Matthew acts two thirty eight if I can find where where I put it at Okay, let me go there and then let me just change it on the screen because I didn't do that. So acts two And 38 I put 28 So 238 he says and Peter said to then repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus christ For the remission of your sin I mean for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the holy spirit Now this person's point is That there are three actions here repent baptize And receive the holy spirit again. This is exegetical meaning that these are all at the same time He's not speaking of three different acts. He's saying that you do these things and this is going to come to you So repent and be baptized In receiving the holy spirit that is You won't find very many people who even understand the languages who will differ on this you just won't but it's a fundamental Misunderstanding on his part and where he gets his by the way before I go to John three five His point is that In his teaching that a person has to be baptized in Jesus name and what he's going to say is and I mean verbally You have to literally say out of your mouth the person's being baptized. You have to say In Jesus name now. He's going to contrast that with Matthew 20 let me go to Matthew 28 In Matthew 28 Verse 19 says go therefore and make disciples of all nations Baptizing them in the name of the father the son and the holy spirit and so he will say that Nowhere in the bible. Do we have the apostles baptizing in that formula? So the question's got to be then Why not now? I know he tries to try us to explain it But his explanation is is is sorely lacking. So Who in the bible did baptize in the name of the father son the holy ghost? Well, no one Why is that then why did Jesus give this command to do so? If we if we take this person that this means to be water baptized and you have to Verbally say these names. Why didn't why is that?  Isn't that a bit odd? You receive the holy spirit and no one follows the command Though they have the spirit of God in them Did they don't address that do they now? He's going to say and I think he started hearing people say listen is the word name Is singular and so he's trying to equate that with uh, Jesus because he goes on and says that This is where the bible says that in him in Jesus the fullness of the godhead dwelt But his understanding is really really clunky and so He makes it as though it's important to say in the name of Jesus But if you're saying that it means the same thing then why can't a person say in the name of the father son The holy spirit are you with me now his whole his whole premise is wrong But just trying to get into his mind and see where he's at That doesn't even make any sense It doesn't make any sense that a person has to say or that that it's that's required to say in the name of Jesus When Jesus didn't say that way now it's also it's more important than than his flawed understanding It's just as important as to understand what Jesus meant what the scriptures mean by when when it says in the name of something Let's go back to the passage. I want I want you to notice something Let's go back to uh, let's start with Matthew. Let's look at that passage first Uh baptizing them in the name of now the word that you hear is the phrase that shoes here is ace Ta Anoma ace Ta Anoma to Patras which is Into the name or in the name of the father and then of course the son and the holy spirit Then if we go to axe same thing Uh 38 baptize everyone in the name of Jesus the phrase here is epi epito anomati What that is and no one no one and I do mean absolutely no one in this day ever took this to mean that it meant that you had to verbally say In the name of Jesus in the name of Jesus or in the name of the father the son holy spirit No one understood it to be that way not one person. How do I know? Well when Jesus is teaching them how to pray How does he say how does he end the prayer? He says to pray in Jesus name now If he really meant for a person to say in Jesus name Why is it that we don't have one prayer in scripture that ends in Jesus name? Because that was never his point for you to verbalize and say that anybody can say in Jesus name And I've seen people pray hard hard. I mean pray very hard Wanting to get something happen and you see them at the very end Jesus name in the name of Jesus As though that's some sort of magical formula. No When you say epe Epe onoma or epe onomati The different ways of saying it It means on the basis of or according to on According to your reputation It when it says name it doesn't always mean in this case that mean the name is a nomenclature like frank or bob or joe It means on the basis of what frank or bob or joe is done or doing or in this case What the father's on the holy spirit and or in this case what Jesus has done What was done on the cross on the basis of what was done on the cross On the authority of because of on top of that's what that means and guys Most of you get that it doesn't take a seminarian It doesn't take a grammarian to get this most folks get that Right now. What if someone is baptizing someone? I've done it this way based upon the profession of joe blow's faith And his faith and trust in the Lord. I now baptize you Is that person now unsaved the person believed but I didn't say in Jesus name So now because of my fault not his fault the person is baptized incorrectly.  And so does that make this person a false teacher? Yes, here's why because now you have determined. This is how a person ought to be saved Remember in in uh first peter this issue of baptism is also brought up. Let's go there Peter says Now baptism which corresponds to this now saves you not as a removal of dirt from the body But as an appeal to god for good conscience through the resurrection of jesus christ Well, what comes about as a resurrection of the jesus christ the holy spirit? And so he's not talking about this physical water baptism. He's talking about this spiritual baptism. Remember John says that I baptize you with water but You will then later be baptized by who by jesus into what into the holy spirit Do we recognize that the holy spirit and water oftentimes in scriptures are synonymous? Yes, ask the woman at the well what jesus was talking about in john chapter four Now obviously before you get to john chapter four, you have john chapter three So I want to cover what he was talking about what he I think he was grossly in error. He just doesn't get it What is being talked about? Let me set this up in john three. You all have heard me talk about this before Uh Let's just So let's go to john three here. Jesus is let me Ex this out here. Jesus is talking to a Pharisee by the name of nicodemus.  He says Truly truly I say to you unless one is born again. He cannot see the kingdom of God So he gives a chronology to this that before you can see the kingdom of God before you can be saved You first must be born again. Nicodemus is confused though. We know nicodemus is confused because he says How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's room and be born now? We know he's not talking about being born again and granted This word ganete anothem which can either refer to being born again again or born from above Well, we know it's not being born again Because jesus corrects him. He's not talking about being born again It's ganete anothem which is born from above And let's go back to the passages and jesus says truly truly I say to you unless one is born of water And spirit let's stop there for a second. So in order to be being born again Also means being born of water spirit. Are you with me? He's talking about being born again And now he just says instead of saying born again. He's saying being born of water and spirit. Or what does that mean? The spirit cannot I'm sorry. He cannot enter the kingdom of god that which is born of flesh is flesh That which is born of spirit of spirit notice again We have these two elements here water Born water and spirit but down here. He's only bringing up one He's why didn't he say and that which is born of of spirit of spirit and that which is born of water Is water he didn't use water again. Why because here is another example a classic example as a matter of fact There have been several dissertation doctoral dissertations about this exegetical chi where this word right here chi Let me go back to us. You can see it this word for and water and is this greek word right here Chi which is and born of water and spirit. He's referring to He's using two elements to talk about one process one element. And so what this false teacher says or thinks is that In order to be saved a person has to be born of the water water baptism and born of the holy spirit No, it's one element I won't go too much into it because we've talked about this before we're going to talk about again We may even talk about it today in what the what the main video for today was going to be and this is going to be But I had to talk about this We're in Ezekiel because Jesus is upset with or by the I should say upset bothered with nicodemus because nicodemus Is a teacher of israel and he says you a teacher teacher of israel don't know this Well, why should nicodemus have known this you're talking about being born again? This is all brand new and jesus wants to say i'm paraphrasing. I beg to differ This is not new. You should have you not been your teacher of israel. You should have known this Why would he expect a teacher of israel to know about being born again or born from above? because god spoke about this Principally in Ezekiel 36 The problem with the jews and with all peoples that we just won't do right We can want to do right say we're going to do right, but we won't and so what god states Matter of fact, let me just go to it. I'm sorry. Let's let's let's go ahead and go to because I don't want to just Say this and have you take my words for it. Let's go to Ezekiel 36 Ezekiel 36 And let's go ahead and add The Hebrews to this and make it big enough so you guys can see it God says this i will sprinkle and by the way as i'm reading this Notice the active participant in this person who's actually doing the work and then who's receiving it Okay, you'll notice that god is i i will i will i will And he's saying what he's going to do to us and then notice the two elements You're going to see Water and spirit just like jesus says in john 3. So let's go back to it I will sprinkle clean water there it is on you and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness and from all your Idols i will cleanse you and i will give you a new heart and i will put And a new spirit i will put in you so he's going to put water on us and his spirit in us and i will remove The heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statues and be careful to obey my rules And so jesus is referring to hear About having their heart sprinkle clean with water and a new spirit put in them It's also reiterated back again in hebrus. I believe chapter 10 and so This is what he's talking about. He's not talking about someone being water baptized water baptism is not in play here That is never the discussion who in who in john 3 is discussing water baptism No one he's speaking about how a person is born Again and the person is born From above we know he's talking about about being born from above. Let's go back to it Uh, I wish I would I should have set this up to where I had that other passage in here So I have to keep jumping around. Let's go back to it john 3 again And he says uh, let's see Do not marvel that I said you must be born again. Do not marvel. Don't trip guys This is my paraphrasing that you must be born from above The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound But you do not know where it's come where it comes from or where it goes So it is With everyone who is born of the spirit. So everyone who was born of the spirit Uh, it's not you doing it. It's god doing just like he said in ezekiel You don't know where it's coming from and who it's going to so don't trip off of that So it is of everyone else who is born of the spirit Well, if you're born of the spirit in this same vein Well, clearly it's not a work that you're doing such as being baptized in water And am I saying you should not be baptized in water? That's not what I'm saying at all I'm saying if you teach that you have to be baptized in water to be saved Now that's a brand new gospel. That's a different gospel. That's a lying gospel Which is no gospel at all. Is that why he's a false teacher? That's one of many That's one of many I won't get into the different prophecies the failed prophecies the numerous failed prophecies That's another reason and then making folks believe that in order to Once they become believers that they are gonna that they are going to speak in these tongues because you have to speak in tongues That's the evidence of having the holy spirit And if you don't have the holy spirit, you cannot be saved And of course what he's going to say is and I hope I know he's watching or at least he will Notice I'm giving you scriptures I'm covering what you just said because you say that no one covers your scriptures They go to other scriptures I'm tracking right along with you with your scriptures and showing you you are in Biblical error, even though you say that we who disagree on what did you call us?  Hey, that's fine So here's what I want because I do know this people really want to see you and I have a discussion And it didn't have to be on this channel. Matter of fact We have uh, someone that we know that's mutual How about Uh, and and he and he asked you ruslan ask you if you would want to sit down with me. He could moderate You said no, I think he asked you again Well, go ahead and do it Go ahead and do it. I think you ought to try to expose me. That's what I think you ought to try to expose the rest of us I I don't think the rest of the people who who who agree with me and disagree with you would have a problem with me being Standing in standing in their stead by proxy. I don't think they would have that problem with having you and I talk I don't think that at all I think and I would love to see the two of us Sit down and talk I'm going to be as forward because now I'm going to treat you like a like a younger a younger person Because you are you're about the same age as my oldest child. And so I'm going to treat you with that sort of respect But I'm going to make you earn every statement that you make and when you start getting off into this Don't have the spirit in trying people's works and this and that and coming in power Well, I got a couple of buddies that could refer you to that can say hey, listen This brother was actually doing this to this guy was doing on the prison yards This guy was teaching folks leaving folks now where folks falling out and where demons being cast out No Which by the way guys these people that keep talking about this i'm going to bring this up also These people that talk about demons being cast out And coming to their church to be cast out I'm sorry Is there ever an example in scripture where a demon went to jesus or a demon walked up to The apostles to be cast out now they came across each other when jesus comes across legion legion wasn't looking for They weren't looking for jesus. They weren't looking for jesus at all When they came across the girl with uh, uh, uh the fortune telling spirit She wasn't looking for them. They came across to him So it makes me wonder why are demons going to your church? Why are demons if you say that's true? Why are they seeking you out Off-topic a little bit, but that's that's I just wanted to to get that It's just in my head and so i'm going to address this whole issue But you speak also about when a person is a believer when they become a believer Well, then that person begins to speak in tongues and you said everyone who was saved or believes spoken tongues You let us i'm trying to find the actual phrase that you said People saying you don't need to be baptized and speak in tongues, but that's not what the bible says. Okay, so here's my example Here's some passages for you to look up and to tell me am I wrong? I'm giving you scriptures mr. Person who shall name uh unnamed though everyone knows what i'm talking about You said that everyone who became a believer spoke in tongues. Well, what about the ethiopian unique? It's not it's not pointed out in strips that he spoke in tongues. What about ax 240 47 Everyone did not speak in tongues on that day. That's part as clear. What about the proconsul in ax 13 12? What about ax 13 48 says that that uh as many as were appointed they believed Now they were appointed by the holy spirit and believed didn't say they spoke in tongues at all did it What about ax 16 15? What about ax 16 33 the jailer? Did paul actually speak in We don't spoke languages, but the kind of tongues that you're talking about did paul do that But if you say yeah fine, I'll I'll take that. What about the rest? So see here's clear scriptures evidence to show that everyone who who In that time did not get saved and speak in tongues But you're saying anyone who wants it can get it. Well, I I've got plenty of uh, uh, and yes, they're anecdotal There were no video cameras in because we're talking about the the early 90s. We're talking about 92 93 You were probably I don't know how would you were back then? Were you I would imagine you were born then pretty sure you were born in what 3 4 5 years old But with some of us who were actually in ministry back then I never forgot to get this young lady Who wanted to and this was a pentecostal church and I believed in tongues at that time But this was a pentecostal church where this young woman wanted the gift of tongues I mean she prayed about it cried about it And we had these little tearing services where you know You go at the at in the evening and tarry for the holy spirit some of the old folks know what I'm talking about I don't they still have those now, but she would go and she would tarry for the holy spirit weekend after weekend only on sundays So in the evenings and it would never come and so she was she was heartbroken Torn up because she never received the gift of the holy spirit She was asking for she was seeking it This was person who was also out there witnessing on the streets and was sharing the gospel So the issue is when you make statements like this one because you don't know It's not like you've got this large exposure to a bunch of people or when you go talk about how people The many different people that you've debated debated I found one that you debated one And so I would say this Let's make this known Let's why don't you put us to shame Put all of us ashamed sit down and I'm not going to yell at you Now I want now you say you don't want want a weak person before you. I won't be weak before you I'll be respectful, but I'm going to give you the scriptures and I am of the opinion that I will even get you to admit that you're wrong And if I do so if I don't if I don't then I'll back off from you But I don't think you will and so I'm saying this Why don't you do because you you stated that it's important to talk about these things when someone I think someone I guess someone in the chat said why don't you just let it go? Well, and you said you wouldn't let it go because this is important. I agree. This is important Let's sit down and let's talk about these things Let's discuss what it does actually mean to be saved what it means to be a believer How salvation comes about and is tongues and evidence of that and must the person get water baptized in order to In order to be saved I'm sorry. I'm laughing at any said you're not filled with the spirit. So so said person is not going to talk. Yeah, that's crazy, huh? That's the it's a cop out that when someone says that Because you don't believe like I believe and you're not with the spirit and so I can't talk to you But you already admitted that you've spoken with and debated Hebrew Israelites and you wouldn't agree that they are But you won't talk to me who says I name the name Jesus like you say you name the name Jesus Well, here's what I think. This is what I think. I'm not again I didn't want to make this about you. I want to make this more about this bad teaching But when you call us cowards, how about you look at yourself in the mirror Because again, you've got all this power where you can cast out this and cast out that and do all these different things Well, here I am a little old weak me Um getting up here in age. You should have no problem with me You should be able to make a light work of me.  Let's just look at the scriptures. We'll come show me the scriptures And come show up before everyone again. It can be on your platform. I'll go to your platform Where it's unfriendly territory for me And let's sit and talk Right, it can be just be us or again, you can try to hit me up Uh on messenger like you tried before and we can just talk in private Or we can go to uh, let ruslan host it. He's he's willing to host it. So let's go ahead and do that but It's high time that we get away from letting people This uh distort the gospel Making people think that you've got to do it this way or that way And you giving anecdotal evidence because someone I think said they drove from texas up there to be baptized Okay, what does that mean? I know a woman who drove from texas to florida some astronaut who was in some sort of love triangle She drove from i think from texas to florida and wore her spacesuit and then Used the bathroom on herself. So because she had this desire to go do something that didn't mean that didn't mean anything People drive a long way to do a whole lot of stuff People drove or flew all the way over here to to knock down two buildings in new york city so because someone took great lengths and A lot of time and money and effort that didn't mean anything We are going to be governed by the spirit mr. Person whose name shall remain nameless I want to talk with you. You know who I am No question. You've mentioned the channel several times. So Let's have a discussion. Let's go. Let's let's let's look at why you're wrong on John, I'm sorry on uh mark 16 16 17 18 Let's look at why you're wrong on john three and five. Let's or three all of john three Let's look at why you're wrong on Um acts 238 and the rest of acts. Let's look at why you're wrong on Hebrews 10 where it says a body that you prepare this Big misunderstanding that you have about Jesus you I I heard what you said you believe that jesus god, but your understanding of how he is Is steel flawed. So let's just have a conversation. Why can't we do that?   I don't think I am Could be I'm willing for you to show that I'm full of pride. Let's just have this conversation You can look on the the times that people have come on here. I didn't seem to be prideful in talking to them. So Let's just have this conversation Right now Again, this is not what I was going to do today I've got a ton and I do mean a ton of stuff to do today Before I have my regularly scheduled Livestream about and you want to watch this Mr. Person whose name shall remain unnamed We're going to talk about the atonement and how this is the actual good news What makes this new atonement the good news? Why would you call it the good news and what this has to do with our salvation? I would like for you to see this because that's another issue of your documents also flawed And so we're going to go ahead and cover some things. It's going to be an in-depth study But this one had to get off my chest. I really I really did it was It wasn't bothering me, but it was just you know, it's like a like a hang nail I want to deal with it and then move on and so I'm not sure if you're going to hear this or well You will hear it. I'm not sure when you're going to hear it, but I'm not sure if you're going to receive this pride says that This person didn't have a point Now I at least decided, you know, let's see if this person has a point. Let's go back and look at the Scriptures. Let's see what he's talking about. I did that I would like to see if you are willing to do that as well Anyway guys, I will see you this afternoon until then be blessed