Good evening and welcome to the right side the show where we talk about today's news views and trends from an admittedly conservative Perspective I'm your host Chris Pareja and this evening. We're joined by your on Brooke. He's internationally known as an author a Speaker a scholar and you're on we're glad to have you in the studio with us this evening. Thanks for having me on and So you've you are a Pete offender Before and I came back and we appreciate that even more And lots has gone on since you've last been here, but one of the most recent things is you've written a new book Yes, yes, and we're going straight for the third rail. We're gonna place our tongue against it here in the The Bay Area, it's all about equality. Yeah, but your book is even entitled equal is unfair Blast bemer, but does that mean but that's really the issue, right? The valley is the opposite of being all about equality, right? Everybody's trying to get rich and rich big and rich fast. What are all these startups trying to do? There's no money involved. There's no wealth effect involved, right? Quite the contrary what you have in this in the valley is a spirit of freedom a spirit of liberty a spirit of going out They're making the most for yourself and you've got billionaires and you've got young people coming in who can barely afford to Rent a little place with a bunch of roommates, but they want to be successful. They want to be rich So in many respects the Silicon Valley is one of the last places on the planet in America Where this ambition? Where this idea of achieving where this idea of inequality of Made doing the best that you can is still alive and well in the country. Maybe not what people say But in the way they act It's interesting that you say that because here we are in the land of Bernie Sanders supporters and everything else You've got young entrepreneurs who are starting businesses and they're saying we want Bernie. How do you? Justify that did well, they hate themselves So in a sense in a sense they do in a sense as there's a certain sense of guilt that is associated with being successful Today in America and that guilt You know Bernie and the left generally capitalizes in that guilt You know, we all trained from when we're very little to believe that to be model to be good We need to sacrifice. We need to give we need to go to Africa enjoy borders You know doctors with our borders or something like that and yet what we really want to do is come to Silicon Valley Become an entrepreneur and make lots of money and then once we make that money We feel guilty because we didn't go to Africa So we support Bernie and we support Hillary and we support all the variety of Causes that that are supposedly you know counter to the fact that we actually achieved something with our lives now I take the entrepreneur any day over the guy who goes to Africa In terms of the benefit of my life to your life and his own life Like the whole issue of inequalities of bogus issue Who cares who cares about how rich the rich get who cares About the gap between the rich and the poor what matters is are people rising up the people have the Opportunities to make their own life better and what's beautiful about Silicon Valley is this is the land of opportunity People have opportunities. They have opportunities because this is again the last industry that is relatively Unregulated that the government has relatively speaking left alone so that people here can actually create wealth They can create businesses. They can hire people they can make their dreams come true The American dream is alive and well again to some extent in Silicon Valley. That's what it's not about the gap If everybody's rising if everybody's better off Who cares what the difference is between the two, right? Well, especially if you can get people to be wealthy and then feel guilty They can do a lot more positive for the world with actual money in their pockets See, but that's the problem you conservatives think this way No, you don't stop doing good in the world after you make the money Making money is what does good in the world How do you make money? Right, this is one-on-one. How do you make money? You make money by creating great products that people Want to buy why do they want to buy it because it's gonna make their life better Where do you think Bill Gates has made the world a better place more in Microsoft or in his philanthropy? I mean, it's not even close at Microsoft Bill Gates changed the world He affected every human being on the planet. He created a platform a soft way an industry that's changed everything Okay, so now he's curing some Malaysian Africa nothing wrong with that But he's affecting maybe a few thousand people here and there when he ran Microsoft that Profits seeking, you know, horrible person, right? Right. He was changing the world for the better every person in the world So making money Is a form of making the world a better place? Profit is a virtue Philanthropy charity, it's okay. Nothing wrong with it. It doesn't change the world a billion people One billion people have come out of poverty over the last 30 years in the world one billion people We should be celebrating in the streets. How did they come out of poverty because of foreign aid because of charity? No, because China and India freed up their markets a little bit and allowed a little bit of capitalism and people got rich, right? The United States when it was founded was a third-rate colony, right? That's where the British didn't win because they didn't really try, right? They were too busy with real powers like the French and the Spanish We were third-rate within 150 years with the mightiest economy in the world because of philanthropy community service and charity No, of course not realism. Yeah, because a businessman Greedy businessman business and wanted to make money Businessmen who are working hard to make a great product that they they could only sell to willing customers And the product made those willing customers lives better So instead of calling the robber barons that the real heroes of America the real heroes of America a businessman who make Everything in the world around us everything in the world around us is a product of some business small business medium-sized business Large business, but that's the real heroes of America and that's what makes the world a better place But you almost make it sound like they earned it instead of stole it all or yeah Yes, they did you know in America we talk about making money not taking money not stealing money But making money we talk about creating wealth right now.  They got rich by stealing money. I mean what are aristocrats? They're better thieves than anybody else That's how you get a title by stealing more money than the guy next door, right? So in Europe it was a zero-sum game before capitalism before freedom before they before the revolution There was the Industrial Revolution The world was really a zero-sum game if you look at income and wealth per capita for 10,000 years It didn't change until about 1800 when it took off until about really 1776 when it took off, right?  So we believe that wealth is something you create you build It's not a zero-sum game. It's a win-win if you're rich It's you become rich by making my life better You become rich by creating products that are helping me live my life So we've never had that envy that is so prevalent in Europe until recently and this is What's so evil about the whole inequality debate is what the leftist trying to do is inculcate envy Into an American people that have never known envy in in in survey after survey Opinion poll after opinion poll Americans always have said in the past. We don't care about inequality We care about my opportunity, you know each person's opportunity We want to be successful. We don't envy the guy across the street is rich in us We want to be the guy across the street and we're gonna work out to be there That's changing and it's changing because of propaganda on the left as Keeps pushing this idea that inequality as Obama says there of our time. You didn't build that Pelosi just the other day said oh the government created the iPhone all the technology in the iPhone is government funded It's got which is a load of you know what plus but it's biodegradable. You know what I'm sure yes It is biodegradable government created but biodegradable probably I mean imagine what the iPhone would look Imagine what the iPhone would look like if the government really did speaking of biodegradable. Yes. Yes, so This is a campaign the left has launched and has been very successful in trying to establish Envy in America and you're seeing that today Unfortunately in in in Booty Sanders campaign somewhat in Trump's campaign, but you're seeing this us versus them Mentality that I think is very very destructive that you appear and un-American But it's becoming more and more America because we're becoming more and more like you So that's what the book is about that the book is really to combat that They there be no real books on the right Thomas So wrote a short book and there's been one or two other books, but they very few books That have taken on the left campaign I mean every one of the leftists are Krugman Stiglitz this guy this French guy Piketty They've all written these big books every year ten books come out from the left on the evils of inequality, right? The right zero well now there's one and and that's that's equal is unfair Which I think which I think is crucial for us to win the battle against them And so you know you brought up a couple of presidential candidates Still that are there so as far as this whole battle for Capitalism if that really even exists in the States anymore, which is arguably probably not the case Versus this whole leftist propaganda driven everything must be equal We've got these candidates that most of the country is not excited about but which would help to really create wealth In that again the going forward or combat at least this notion that Equal equality can be artificially created. Yeah, I don't think either one of them I really think if you take Hillary and and Trump as the candidates, I don't think either one of them I think both are incredibly destructive to whatever's left of capitalism in this country Whatever's left of freedom in this country, they would each destroy maybe different parts of it They would emphasize different aspects of it, but both are incredibly destructive to freedom and look There is one sense in which equality is very important If the sense in which the founding fathers talked about equality and that's equality before the law and equality of freedom Equality of rights equality of liberty Every one of us is born free We have a right to pursue the values that make our life the best life that it can be we have a right to pursue our own happiness and the inequality the people who advocate for for all these inequality problems all their Solutions are always to limit our freedom and to constrain our freedom. They're all equal if you have nothing Yes, and and that's what they're trying to do because they're ultimately you can only be equal when you all have nothing and look There were problems in America. There's problems of poverty There's problem of no economic growth and this problem of cronyism both Hillary and Trump will do nothing about poverty. They will make it worse The they're both for increasing the minimum wage Trump is for increasing the minimum wage Hillary is the minimum wage is one of the dumbest stupidest No real economist Believes the minimum wage is good. It's it's a net drain Economically and it puts the poorest of the poor. It hurts teenage Teenages in inner cities the most right in poor neighborhoods Neither of them will do anything about economic growth. Neither of them has any solutions for Trump wants a trade war with China That will destroy economic growth that could spiral the world into a depression That you could it's probably one of the worst Economic policies I can imagine and in terms of cronyism.  So they've collaborated before on this effort Yeah, Trump has actually given Hillary, you know to buy favors and he's admitted it He the one thing about Trump you have to give him credit for is he doesn't seem to be ashamed of the best about his cronyism Which says something about an electorate who's willing to elect somebody who says yeah, I'm a crony cool You know that that's nuts. That's so un-American. That's so against everything we believe in and yet people are voting for him under The belief that he will end cronyism. No, he's gonna make it much worse. So we've got candidates who are gonna hurt the poor Hurt economic growth in the middle class therefore and make cronyism more prevalent in this country not less prevalent in this country so on Every important issue on the real problems that we face not this inequality non-issue Both candidates are awful and really there's a there's a dearth of solutions out there because nobody has the courage to actually advocate For policies which America used to stand for the policy of the founding fathers Well, but I'm sure they've got to have some good attributes like foreign policy or something, right? I mean you said okay. Well, Trump could kick off a trade war with the rest of world Yeah, but I mean I'm sure Hillary's you know former secretary No, I suspect neither one of them have any positive attributes and in any in any area And I would probably find myself disagreeing vehemently with both on almost everything You know the I'd say the only virtue that Donald Trump I can think of really has is the fact that he's not PC I'm very pro not being PC. I'm a huge advocate of free speech You got to say it like it is and and that speech needs to be protected no matter how Offended people are the whole point of free speech the whole point of a First Amendment is to protect you from offending You're right to offend me. Remember the United States of America was founded by a bunch of guys who offended the British Right read the Declaration of Independence. Sometimes it's a very offensive document if you're King George, right? Well, but I mean but but it doesn't sound like either of them is really a big fan of the First Amendment outside of them speaking though either No, neither one. I mean Donald Trump is talked about expanding like the laws and you can't you can't offend him He's allowed to offend everybody, but you can't offend him He has a very very thin skin and I feel what that means when he's in the White House And of course Hillary Clinton is part of a leftist establishment that doesn't believe free speech is a right That again, you can't offend through speech Donald Trump I don't people don't remember this but after Gaul in Texas the shooting in Gaul in Texas Which nobody remembers nobody even mentioned that it was about a year ago is a year and a month almost exactly ago when when two Muslim radicals wanted to shoot up this cartoon contest this Mohammed cartoon contest and right after that Donald Trump's response and bill O'Reilly responds and much of Fox's response. This is the right was Kind of they asked for it, you know stop drawing these cartoons and and they'll stop shooting at you That is defeatism. That is horrible. That is that is the opposite of what free speech means I mean that the founding fathers would be horrified by a view like that Yeah, it is interesting that People think that they have a right not to be offended but but the measure and we're seeing that on campuses right with what they call the the snowflake Generation where you can't offend anybody they they now have safe spaces where you can go ahead hug a teddy bear If I say something you don't like, you know, we've got sofas over there. You can go hug a teddy bear There's calm music going on. I mean really at a university where you're supposed to be challenged You're supposed to be pushed.  They have trigger warnings the curriculum now has oh you might be offended by this reading So you can you can excuse yourself from reading it You you don't have to sit in this class because you might find something that the professor says offensive Well, you use words like founding fathers and that assigns the gender role Yes, absolutely, you know a lot of these things somebody is going to be offended by and certainly if you come to one of my speeches Lots of trigger warnings. I'm gonna offend a lot of different people equally Probably not equally because I don't believe in equality after all. I only believe in equality before the law Look the solutions to poverty The solutions to money how ridiculous economic growth and the solutions to cronyism are all the same The freedom freedom is the solution to all these problems and yes making money the freedom to make money But you know some of us choose not to make money some of us choose to be teachers Some of us choose professions what we know when I because we love it, right? The definition of independence doesn't say you have to wait to make money you do but you have a way to pursue happiness, right? Some of us do that by becoming entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley Some people do it by becoming teachers some do it by by becoming car mechanics, whatever it is that you choose to pursue You should be free to pursue it and and it's freedom. That is the key It's it's the it's the liberty to say to think and to pursue rational values They're gonna lead to your own happiness. That's what this country was found the principal was founded on and you're right We're not capitalist anymore. We're not free anymore. Now everything's by by permission. We're crony I call us the regulatory welfare state, right? The state regulates everything. So of course we're crony, you know If you're gonna regulate my life, I'm gonna try to influence you because I'm gonna try you know, there's There's the famous Microsoft story in the early 90s Microsoft didn't lobby Didn't go to Washington didn't have any lawyers Didn't have a building in the beltway nothing and they were brought in front of the Senate and they were said you better start lobbying by a Republican arm and hatch you better start lobbying you need to have a presence in wise DC What do you guys think you're doing and Microsoft walked away and said, you know, you leave us alone. We'll leave you alone We're not interested guess what happened six months later knocking the door We're from the Justice Department and we think it's wrong of you to be giving away Internet Explorer for free So we're gonna sue you guess what Microsoft learned from that after More than a decade in in federal court. They learned from that they better lobby said today They spent tens of millions of dollars They've got this beautiful building about equal distance from the White House and Congress right there. It's beautiful glass Good just building they spent a lot of money on these politicians now They've learned they listen cronyism is a is a is a feature of statism. That's why I never say crony capitalism Capitalism is the absence of cronyism cronyism is a feature of socialism fascism any form of statism necessitates cronyism well, but in that case, I mean they're actually I mean just Demanding ransom. Yep to be able to stay in business. I mean if you look at this whole Thirst for equality and you look at the Silicon Valley as an example It's interesting to me that for example, we insist that minimum wage be raised and everything else But entrepreneurs don't go in it for money at all or someone who would be willing to intern for free to build their resume Their opportunities actually taken away if they have to charge money to get that opportunity my son works my son writes comedy In Hollywood, you know how much they start to death. You know how much they pay zero exactly performs and he writes and Zero exactly zero no minimum wage applies to them no minimum wage applies to interns No minimum wage applies to middle-class type jobs where you know those kids are gonna find a way to survive In spite of the fact that they're getting paid zero where the people we are screwing the people We are consciously screwing when we raise the minimum wage are the people who have the least voice are the people who have the fewest opportunities they in a city typically minority youth and and and look the minimum wage was instituted when it was first instituted It was a program instituted by the unions to keep minorities out They didn't want the labor competition So they raised them in a way so they could price those people out and it's it's doing the same thing today And this is why unions support it but it goes beyond that I mean recently in Oakland they raised the minimum wage Walmart said we can't afford to pay people anymore. They shut down the store So 500 jobs lost, but additionally all of the low-cost goods that were available before a gun are now gone So the the community is impacted multiple times by this, but of course, but it's Walmart evil Yes, Walmart is Walmart is the problem. They should have subsidized this They should have taken a loss in order to do this But look that's the reality if McDonald's has to pay 15 bucks an hour They're gonna they can do a few things they can automate right they get you go in and press an iPad now They're machines that have flipped the whole burger. They'll do the whole thing, right? They can automate or they can raise prices on the on the hamburgers now both I know you eat at McDonald's, but I don't most people who eat at McDonald's a low-income people And they're gonna raise the price of McDonald's in order to pay the low-income people more I mean the whole thing is ludicrous and nuts and again. It's hurting the people, but nobody cares You see the left doesn't care about poor people. They care about power They care about maintaining their position as seeming to help their poor people and maintaining control on all of us That's what the real agenda is and they're being very successful at it You have to give them credit for basically winning the battle because we're losing right those of us who believe in freedom are clearly Losing in this country. Yeah, it's a shame and if they raise the prices too much at McDonald's entrepreneurs like me won't be able to afford to eat You better get an exit on that company quickly, you know, it's an inducement to make more money Yeah, exactly. It's an incentive structure. No, it's it's the fact is That we have distorted and it's not look it's not just minimum wage It's licensing laws in California. You need a license to shampoo hair, right? Who is that hood? I mean, it's an attorney here.  Who does that hood a young? You know entrepreneurs trying to start a business instead of making it simple for people to rise up We make it harder and harder and harder and the more we regulate the less businesses are gonna invest The less businesses are gonna grow the fewer jobs that going to be and then surprise surprise We wake up on morning and the economy is not growing more than 1% a year for years You know, Japan's been living this for 20 something years. You think we'd learn something They just haven't done it, right? Yeah, and instead we want to debate inequality. I want to debate the gap Let's not debate the actual problems. Let's debate the gap. The gap is Irrelevant. There's no economic theory No empirical fact. There's no evidence zero evidence that suggests that the gap has any negative Consequences at all quite the contrary the fact that there's a gap often incentivizes people So appreciate you sharing and the passion with which you do it. We do have to go for now Quickly website so people can find you iron ran dot org a y n r a n d dot o a g Thanks, Ron. If you hold on for just a moment We'll be right back after a word from our underwriters the conservative forum Some people think that a meeting of conservatives in Silicon Valley could fit in a small room In fact when the conservative forum was founded in 2003 We did meet in a small room a coffee shop in San Jose. It doesn't get more grassroots than this It may surprise you that there are thousands of people right here in Silicon Valley who share your principles of Liberty Free markets and limited government Since our humble beginnings in that coffee shop We've outgrown three meeting halls from San Jose to Gilroy to Mill Valley We bring hundreds of people together each month from all over the Bay Area to promote the principles of American Liberty How do we do it? 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Would you kill for your son? What, I? Absolutely. You? Yes. Nice.   I'm Rick. I am. Yeah. Rick's mom. You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter. JuicyGelm, do you think some Patreon followers could account me about something like this? Squad, bang! Come on, please. Can I just click them below? Whoa. I just threw juicy content all over the top of your head, mom. Oh, okay. I don't know.  I watched Mom with My Mom. It's an inception, momation. And I will say this right at the outset, right as we're beginning to watch it, I'm thinking to myself, I really hope this doesn't suck, because that would be awful for my mom's first review, because she's already seen. Yeah, what's she seen? Bajira Mastani. Okay. English-Venglish. Okay. Badda. Love them. That's all? That's it? Okay, which one's your favorite? Oh, and Dolly Boy. Oh, I love Dolly Boy. Oh, I love Dolly Boy. She's your favorite so far. Do you have a favorite of those that you've seen? Because she's loved them all. I think I love the mom one. Oh, is that one of your favorite? Oh. Spoiler review. Spoiler review. Yes, let's see. Not an actor spoiler. I mean, there's a spoiler review. Well, this is a spoiler, we assume you've seen it. So, it came out in 2017. So, if you haven't watched it, go watch it, come back. This is our second tree-devil movie. We need to get to more, we know. And especially her classics. Her classics, because we've seen them later work. We've only seen her late, this was her last film. Like a year before she passed. RIP Shriek, Evie, man. Love you so much. But, we are reviewing the 2017 film, Mom, directed by Raul Udyawar. I think it's Ravi. Ravi. Oh, I couldn't see it this far away. Yeah, Ravi Udyawar, written by Girish Kohli, and also Ravi Udayawar, which was the story. And some of the story was written by Kona Venkat. And produced by her husband. Composed by Air Ramon. Shriek Devi is starring in it, with Nawazan and Siddiqui. Correct. Oh, and Akshay Khanna. Akshay Khanna, as well. And the daughter, I specifically wanted to find out. Is that Sajal Ali? Arya. Yeah, played Arya. Great.  As every good mother should. I think that gives a little way too much. I agree. I like a little more subtle synopsis, in my opinion. I think it would be better stated if it was something like, after a traumatic event, a furious mother sets out. That's what she needs to, or what does she want to do? To, to, fight the wrong, right? Fight the wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway. Anyways. But, like I said, 100% spoiler review. If you haven't watched it, go watch it. Come back. Your initial thoughts, please. Love it. Absolutely loved it. I think she should, the mother did a Academy Award for her acting. Shredevi. And the daughter. And that's, I mean, I'm just. Sajal, Sajal right now. Amazing. She was really, really good. Both of them, just amazing. Rick? Yeah, I, not surprised at the depth of Shredevi's performance and the honesty and the performance. The daughter was very impressive to play. Even more so than we talked about the daughter in Family Man 2 and what she had to go through. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this was even more so than, as much as this film rides on Shredevi, it really hinges, the next person is the daughter. And if the daughter doesn't do a good job with this role, this movie's gonna suffer. And I thought she did a really good job. I had only one aspect of it where I'm being hyper critical. I felt there were some points, whether it was script direction or score option where it felt a little heavy handed at times, a couple of times. Kind of not bordering on melodramatic, but just almost a little bit heavy handed. That's the best way I can describe it. But that's a minutia critique for me because the majority of the film, I really enjoyed it.  There's something very particular about the ending that I liked. So ultimately, I think this is a really good movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I enjoyed it as well. I actually think probably had a lot of dislikes that I think it was a little too melodramatic at times. That it's just, my personal style is not that. Yeah, which is the parts I probably felt were heavy handed. And probably the end, some part at the end that I just. I for sure. I for sure.  I hate it. I love the message of castrating and murdering rapist. I think it's a great message for the kids. That's a message that should be spread amongst all of you. I agree. I love that message in the film.  I love it. So obviously the message outweighs any critique. And at the end, I was like, I enjoyed that movie. So I have far more loves than I do critiques of this film. But there are some critiques that I will mention later on. Shredevi is by far the star of this film. I mean, I loved her in English vanguards. She knocked it out of the freaking park. She did this one. She brought it. English vanguards was a really fun rom-com where we got to see a personal vulnerable side. Yeah. This, she had to really tap into some places that were, I could see, man, I wish she was here to talk to. I could see she was tapping into what you have to do for this role. She was tapping into her greatest fear when she realizes what happened to her daughter. And she freaks out. I saw Shredevi accessing her greatest fear. If she wasn't accessing it, she was doing a monumental job. Picturing basically if it was her actual daughter. Whatever she needed to do to make it believable, I believe that that woman was feeling what she was feeling about her girl having been raped.  I swear, man. It's true. English vanguards and this. What is, appreciate Shredevi. She's a sweet heart of a lady. She doesn't deserve your attitude.  I swear. What is wrong with them? But yeah, I totally agree. What do you think about Shredevi's performance? Amazing. I just think that the combination of anger and love is in there, you know, that fueled her to do what she needed to do continually, not just at the end, but continually. How she was driven, you'd think just by love for her daughter, that's overseeing everything, but there's a tremendous amount of anger with the system that let her down, with the injustices in the world, with unfairness. And I think the other thing that hit me really hard was the little detective man. Nawaz. Is this your first Nawaz? Yeah, no, she saw him in English, but I had to remind her. Not English vanguards, the lunchbox. That's another one she saw. That's another one she saw. Okay, gotcha. So she's seen six, but I had to remind her that that guy, this was a character. But anyway, you were saying, I don't know. So his place where he says, when she's asking him to help her, kill them, basically, or do them in, he's saying, well, I know what they did, which is a wrong, but you're asking me to help you do another wrong, and two wrongs don't make a right, but there came a place, and I think that's really important in life, to figure out where those two wrongs make a right, because there was no one else going to set that street in any other way. She had no alternative other than to lay down and be victimized by it, or stand up and do the good stuff, so I was excited about that.  She said as we're sitting there watching it, she just says out loud, she said, are you telling me these guys are going to get away with this? Yeah, and it was, I thought a good move by the director, because it shows like, and they kept mentioning in the film, this is going to happen again and again in our country, because obviously, it's a massive problem around the world, but obviously it's a huge, huge problem in India right now, and that the system also, just letting it happen. The fact that she had alcohol in her system, and that somehow discredits her entire thing, which infuriated me. Of course, it's comparable to filmed in a completely different way, and it's a different story the way it's portrayed, but it reminded me of quite a bit of the same subject matter in Pink. You haven't seen that, but you will. It's a great film with Topsy Panu and Amitabh Bachchan. And it's the same subject matter, and something else that my mom wouldn't be aware of is throughout the two years that we have had exposure to life and stuff in India, it's depicted a lot in TV shows and films, in fact, there's an entire series called Deli Crime about the subject matter of gang rape in India. It's the statistics from 2018 and 2019 are about comparable, and it comes out to, these were reported 88 rapes a day in the country. And many of them are graphically, what happened to her is tame, compared to some of the things you hear about that are so barbaric that happen in a gang rape situation. That makes you even want all the more to see the justice brought to the rapists. So yeah, she was several times saying if this doesn't end with the bad guys getting what they deserve, I'm gonna be really angry. And then at the climax, the climax. Oh yeah. She, Debbie's holding the gun. She's screaming to shoot it. Shoot him! Shoot him already! What are you doing? What are you waiting for? Shoot him! And as she's aiming, I said lower, and lower, and lower. But the ending part I was gonna refer to, I love, I didn't see it coming because I love to be as blind as possible. I try not to second guess so I can be surprised. But I loved that the trigger that got her to pull the trigger was the daughter saying, Mom. No, I hated it. I loved it. I, although I did appreciate the fact that this film, it was not just, it was not her biological daughter, but a stepdaughter, which I come from a family that I have a stepmother and a stepfather who I love very, very much. And I believe would do this exact same thing for me. If needed. But I like that complexity to that character. Yeah.  But it made for a good film. Yeah. It's not my favorite style of film. You wouldn't notice definitively yet about Corbin. Corbin, Corbin prefers anarchy and unhappy endings. Like, it's fine if she was there, but the fact that she had to say, Mom. I love it. I get it. I get it. There's nothing wrong with it. It's not my style. I love it because it worked. She would have seen her and then done it and that would have been less heavy-handed. No, because what happened at that point is the girl behind, she's behind the tree and she's listening to the conversation that's being said. Oh, I know why they did it. And she realizes that she has done what a mother would do and she has the realization, while this is going on at the climax of the film, that she has really been wrong about her and she is a mom to her. Therefore, when she steps out, she looks at her and before she says, Mom, she gives her the nod of, you've gone this far, take it all the way. And I just, I look, what do you think? He didn't like it, I loved it with you. She was shaking her head, yes, at her as well before it came out of her mouth. They had eye contact and she was like, the yes nod, but when the word comes out of her mouth for me, it's, it may be melodramatic to some people, but in essence, there are words that trigger us. And I think that's a word that when that was said to her, it mustered up in that moment everything she needed to do to pull the trigger, because no one wants to kill someone, unless you're evil, I think. Right, right, right. So there's comes a place that that decision may never have been made if that young girl didn't speak that to her. There was something about that that was powerful that enabled her to cross the line and... Oh, I knew exactly why she did it and why the filmmakers did it. I just, I preferred less heavy handed piss in my film. She didn't just pull the trigger, when she heard she unloaded the clip. She unloaded the clip. Oh, I loved it. I was like, because she used what? The police officer's gun, right? Yeah. I was like, you're going to have to explain why you unloaded the clip in this guy. That's the other thing. The cop was really not on her side throughout the whole thing. He was trying to nail her for the murders, right? He was trying to nail her? Yes! Not that way, Corbin. It's too much whiskey. Whiskey. He's a... His name is Akshay Khanna. We've seen him many times. He's a great actor. Great actor. I thought he did a very good job. Very solid job. Because when he said take this gun and don't use that gun, I realized in that moment what he was doing is allowing her to do what he knew she needed to do as a mother. The bullet needed to come out of his gun. So the story could be I shot him. And I thought... I'm pretty sure in America you'd have to explain why you unloaded your clip. Yeah. No. That's the strain of quadrillion.  Yeah, exactly. But, and I also loved it that I loved the way it was shot and I loved the way the actress was portrayed and it could, it was, it's very, very fragile what was done at the end. It could have broken and not looked right or been right. But the moment where they have together where they hug each other and she says I love you to her and you're touching each other's face and they're kissing was a very believable moment. If that was, if that was an acting exercise and I'm watching the two actresses work that scene there's so much that could go wrong where they're not accessing real emotion. They're uncomfortable being that close to each other. And I felt like these two ladies were great. Shredevi when she obviously lost it. Obviously understandably so.  And I've seen many actresses do a terrible job because that's such a hard thing to try to bring out because it's something you don't want to imagine whatever happened to you.  Like I thought she was a good actress. Like she did a great job in this film. Great job. Such a great job. Then there's the daughter who if you've ever experienced who experiences getting raped. Correct. And she is bringing forth exactly, I mean I felt it. No when she has that scene in the bedroom where she starts screaming and the father tries to, or she's scratching her skin and trying to get over for her, right? Because you know the mom wants to be there to help into comfort but. And at the same time, you understand the trauma of the girl. So it's just one of those broken moments. And I also want to say that the man who played the dad, not only was it well written because what you needed in the husband is you needed a loving husband who was also a strong man but not a definitive alpha male because he needed to be a little bit subdued back because the mom needed to be the one to take the vengeance. Is he related to Noa's? I don't know. Is that Sadiki? I know it's Sadiki. It's just to be a common name, interesting. But. I thought he did a good job. And I felt it was written well because you needed that balance of him. He can't be just a pushover. That would be annoying. And if he's too much, you expect him to be the vigilante. I did not like the fact that he lived. I actually was happy with the fact that I was like, I was surprised. I was like, he just shot the dad. I know. But then they said he's in the hospital and he's fine. I'm like that huge shot point blank. I agree. And so I was like, you didn't have to do that. We were fine though when he was dead. It was a good send-off. He was trying to protect his daughter. He was shot point blank. It's hard to miss at that juncture. They saved the storyline. Yeah, yeah. But Noa's. I want to talk about Noa's. Noa's probably my favorite actor, arguably. And in general. He put on a character in this one. Something I hadn't really, I mean, you've seen him do different stuff. But he put on a character. Yeah, the last time he became something would be Ron and Raghav 2.0 when he was completely other. He had a wig. I'm pretty sure he had teeth. Dentures. The detective. The detective. That's crazy wild. Yeah, yeah. He's a brilliant actor. He's Gary Oldman at like level. He's incredible. And I thought he did. I love that he went on a stretch here. Yeah. I love when actors take that chance. Obviously he knocked it out of the park. Did you notice where he was? Picking pictures of the bats? Sorry, hold on. When he was taking pictures of the bats down at the bottom of those steps. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've been there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also we saw our friend that we interviewed from White Tiger. Yes, which of course, I'm sorry. Guarov. Adar Guarov. We've interviewed him. He's a great actor. Very, very good actor. I thought he did a very good job in this one. He was one of the rapists. Yeah. Right. Right when I saw him I was like, oh, that's exciting. But he was in a film called The White Tiger that came out this year that was produced by Priyanka Chopra, among other people. And he was nominated for a BAFTA, the British-rated one of the Oscars. And we got to interview him. We had a chance to talk to him and obviously he hadn't seen mom, but we knew he had worked with Sri Devi. And so ultimately, yeah, very good, very good film.  Correct. It's cool. Castration and murder. Correct. It's much more enjoyable that way. There's aspects to the film that I would have done differently as a director. Like the whole court scene, I didn't enjoy. Me too. That was like, I was like, when it was going on I was like, I do not like what they're doing right now. Because it seemed very melodramatic. It seemed very like cliche. Yeah, there was, for example, there was a moment when the dad shouted out in the courtroom and I didn't feel like it happened organically because the dad was shouting out. I felt like it was because we need the scene to raise the tension in this moment of the film. And that just, it doesn't, it doesn't strike with the purity of in the moment believability. Yeah. That was definitely my least favorite part of the film. Yeah. But I thought it definitely, it had a lot more good than it did bad in this film. Absolutely. I think it was in the hands of, I think this director's kind of new. Don't know. Yeah, two films. Two films, this was their first. Wow. This is their first film. Yes. So I thought they did a very good job for their first film. But I felt you could see some of the newness of a new director in some parts. But overall, I thought the film, Sri Devi, she's by far the greatest part of this film. Yeah. And it makes me, watching it the whole time, it's just, you know, she passed away like a year before the channel became... Yeah. Yeah, she, the channel started in the fall of 2018. She passed away in the January or February of 2018. Yeah. So we never got a chance to even have the opportunity to interview where she was incredibly young, gone too soon. 50 something, I think. And something we know about her that you don't know is she can do everything. She can do Lucille Ball comedy. She can do Debbie Reynolds dance members. She can be sexy. She can be dorky.  Yeah. She's considered by pretty much everybody in Indian cinema and the international film community as being one of the most talented women to ever be in cinema. Yeah, she was great. Yeah. And I'm sad we're just getting to our second film, but we want to watch a lot more of her. So please let us know what the next Sri Devi, I'm hoping it's a classic. I would like to watch one of her great Indian classics. So let us know down below what should be the next film of her she's watching. What should be the next film we have? Rick's Mom Watch, six for six. Because I just realized all the films that she's seen, Mom, Lunchbox, Gully Boy, Bajira Mastani, English Vinglish and Badla, and every one of them she's liked. So how hot is Ranveer? Love them. How hot is Ranveer? Which one is that? Tell me who it is. Which one is she seeing? Bajira Mastani. He's the main guy in Bajira Mastani. He's the main guy in Bajira Mastani. Oh, wow. Yeah, I agree.


In the Latin language there is a saying that could also be applied to our Don Bosco conference. It is, nomen est omen. This means that the name also reflects the inner essence of a person or a thing. In this sense, all reflection on catechesis and appropriate ways of transmitting the faith reflects what makes Saint Don Bosco such an inspiring figure for us. He lived in Italy in the 19th century. He was born and grew up in poor circumstances, and from an early age he had the desire to dedicate his whole life to the transmission of the faith. He had a special focus on young people, just as we are asking ourselves these days how we can reach out for young people in catechesis. He knew how much places for proclamation can become messages of faith. In Turin in 1880 he managed to get a chat to gather young people for catechesis. It was not the material or organizational expenses that were so effective, but the radiance of his charism that turned sober or even poor walls into resonating bodies. The secret of his catechetical gift speaks from a word that has come down from his mouth or rather from his heart. He said, Do good, be merry, and let the sparrows whistle. One may think on Jesus' word in the Sermon of the Mount in the Gospel of Matthew where it says, Look at the birds of the air. They do not sow, they do not reap, they do not gather provisions in barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? It is this freedom from human feasibility that makes Saint Don Bosco so credible. His words can become a statement of faith and a curriculum for catechesis if we look at them more closely and spell them out. So first, doing good, mercy, and attention. Already 65 years ago in 1958, the then younger theologian and later Pope Benedict XVI foresaw the present situation of the Church almost prophetically. Already at that time he spoke about the fact that faith needs graduality because not all people are connected to faith in the same way. Thus, in addition to those who want to belong to Jesus Christ out of deep inner determination and are at home in the sacramental life, there are those who as Christians are human beings among human beings. To be good to others, to look at them kindly, to see what they need, to understand courtesy, not as a convention, but as a loving attention. Catechesis in the Church wants to shape the good so that in a world with so much denial it can bring out the yes of God. Being a missionary church begins with seeing, wanting, and doing the positive. Some time ago I personally became aware of how evangelization can begin with a very everyday example. After a visit to a gym, I held the door open for a following visitor as he was leaving. I had seen him there several times, but I had never spoken to him. He gratefully returned the gesture, and from then on we were in conversation. Perhaps in the life of Saint Don Bosco it was precisely the obvious, the simple, and the everyday that can challenge one to do good. The well-known phrase, only those who feel what they see, give what they have, shows how we can get a sense of what is good. The famous French writer Antoine de Saint-Exupéry once said it in this way, one sees well only with the heart. And those who first look with the heart at the other and at life grasp another emanation of Saint Don Bosco. Secondly, to be joyful, joy of faith and gratitude. The Apostle Paul understood this connection in his spirituality and preaching as the deepest source of faith. In the letter to the Philippians, he writes, what Don Bosco also made is made his own. Rejoice in the Lord all the times. I once again say, rejoice. Let your goodness be known to all people. The assistant and brothers, real authentic joy of faith come from within. When a person has gone to that depth where he or she realizes that he or she owes everything to God and that no success is the merit of his own achievement, his life is his life is not chance but providence that radiates. The confidence that Saint Don Bosco was able to transmit to young people in his catechesis came from within. His faith was unwavering and unserving that God gives in his time what man needs. In Germany, there is a canon of songs that is very easy to sing with different voices and that is precisely what it is so stirring. It takes little to be joyful and who is joyful is a king. True joy is gratitude. It knows that it cannot be organized. It's not bound to external or material conditions. It rises from within and where it thus comes into life, faith comes into play. This is catechesis in the spirit of Saint Don Bosco. This is how young people can be one for Christ. This attitude is connected with the third instruction of Saint Don Bosco. Thirdly, and let the sparrows whistle patience and serenity. Whoever says let the sparrows whistle does not mean it in the liberal sense to each his own. It's not a call to abrituraliness but an invitation to deep serenity. Perhaps it is precisely this that has so empathetically opened young people to the dimension of faith in catechesis in the material hardships and political and professional uncertainties of their time. Don Bosco himself knew about the dangers of life and about how much man can get lost in the turns and turbulences of time. Finding and having faith that allows a serenity to mature as the fathers of the church once expressed it in an image. With regard to catechesis at the church they use the comparison of the sun and the moon. Just as the moon derives the light from the sun the church derives the light from Christ. And just in the rhythm of time there must always be the waning moon so that there can be the waxing one that becomes finally the full moon. So external forms of church and catechesis must always pass away so that new ones can arise. The annual Don Bosco conference in turbulent times of the church and the world is such a valuable contribution in the life of the church helping to renew its catechesis from within. Because we Christians are called to live serenity where otherwise agitation is rampant we can point out what the world lacks without us. Where catechesis has patience with people because it knows of God's greater possibilities for them we Christians carry out into the world a soothing contrast that knows of what the letter of the hebrews promises us. There's yet rest given to the people of God. Dear friends the annual Don Bosco conference here at Steubenville in which I'm participating for the first time this year is an impressive sign for us in Rome of how worthwhile it is to keep asking the spirit of this patron saint of catechesis and not to tire of persevering in patience because we know what Saint Paul calls us to in the letter of the Romans. Patience brings about probation. Probation brings about hope but hope does not let perish. When it comes to proclaiming the faith finding the right ways to people in the name of God by giving them mercy and attention, witnessing joy and gratitude and living serenity and patience our catechesis gains the spirit of Saint Don Bosco. Do good, be merry and let the sparrows whistle. Amen.


Okay, so hi everybody. This is so exciting. Welcome to all brains belongs first ever hybrid brain club We have a whole bunch of people here at the statehouse lawn We have a whole bunch of people here on zoom and None of these things are defaults We are going to try as best we can to create an equivalent experience in Zoomland and in real life Because this way because I know my personal experience is that like lots of times I'm the zoom participant when something is happening somewhere on site And I feel othered because I'm like the extra watching so we're we are going to try to have this be Meaningful to all the people. Oh, I should introduce myself Oh, okay Where do you think the feet what's the source of the feedback? How about now is it any better? Okay. All right. I Realize I didn't even introduce myself. I don't know everybody who's in zoomland. So I will say hi I'm Mel Hauser. I am you she they pronouns. I'm executive director here at all brains belong And I am joined by my colleague Sierra Miller And you can have this on your lap Hi, everybody, I'm Sierra Miller. I am a nurse practitioner all brains belong and I'm really excited for this hybrid brain club Yeah, it's really nice to see people in person and it's nice to see people in video and it's a beautiful day out Awesome. So as we kick off this first of a series of three topics where About neurodiversity and the double empathy problem I thought I just wanted to say a little bit about what the double empathy problem is And how this fits into everyday life and then we will start our conversation about neurodiversity and Relationships So the double empathy problem is a term that was coined by dr. Danian Milton who is M a and an autistic researcher in the UK and This term refers to like there's not a one right way to communicate It's that there's a mismatch of worldview a mismatch of communication styles where and in his original study 10 years ago looked at neurodivergent people communicating with one another versus communicating with And neurotypical people communicating with each other and with neurodivergent people and turns out that both groups had a really hard time understanding one another And it's not that that that one group of people have like social skills deficits It's it's um, I think our zoom may be crashed You're still on it. Okay, great. I'll just keep talking. This is what I do anyway, um, so Again, it's not that there's like one default way of being a person and everyone else has deficits it's that really it's about zooming way out and Struggling to perspective Even people with brains who think learn communicate like the majority of brains can often really struggle with perspective taking of And so how this impact how this fits into relationships is it's like everything if it's into literally every aspect All kinds of things and so I am I'm curious and we can we can start with the folks in on zoom What is what's jumping out for you? What what how does perspective taking impact you are relationships in your lives and feel free to type in the chat or Unmute and speak and actually if I turn my if any of us turn our speakers on Finn, what's gonna happen? We don't want to do that.  We can all hear you um and maybe Do you think that you could give the zoom folks a view of the crowd? And if anyone does not want to be on camera here feel free to come on this side Sure, I can ask the question again um So when we think about perspective taking in relationships is that hard is that easy is it uh What's been your experience? I see in the I see in the chat that this is everything I Part of parts in a my relationship is that when we're not on the same page We often don't know we're on the same page until conflict happens So we think we're on the same page or not or not and that's what that's what the trouble Assumption making anything Yeah, um, I think thank you for saying that I think that's that's that's very very common um where um Not being on the same page. Um, it's easy. It's easy to not be on the same page for sure Um, how about how about anybody here? perspective perspective taking um In relationships where if you have the kind of brain that Maybe has a mismatch of communication style with someone else in your relationships. How does that? How's that play out for you? Linda sometimes I find that I Oh, there's one at the table Sometimes I find that things I assumed to be self-evident Are not to the other person and things that they have assumed are self-evident Are not to me. I'm you're gonna say something Vibe I felt your vibe Hello Something I was thinking about with this theme is um When you do have that communication breakdown, so there's friction happening, but you're not talking about the friction um, it becomes very easy to put a lot of that weight on yourself and think that the um Communication mismatch is like your fault like you're like That went so poorly blah blah blah blah when really it's like Both parties are all parties like have their own needs and have their own styles. So Yeah, is this working can people hear me? Yeah, okay. Okay. Awesome. Um, this is sierra I just one thing that this makes me think of is one of my favorite metaphors about narrative origins is comes from the podcast black girl lost keys um, and she talks about Specifically adhd as a mac in a world built for pc's and how they both are really great operating systems But it's difficult to communicate across those operating systems and it's difficult for a mac to work in a world um That's built not for them And I also think that one thing I've been thinking about recently is how there's uh Um There's an assumption of the kind of steps of a relationship whether you're talking about kind of a relationship escalator in terms of romantic relationships or just kind of how intimate certain relationships should be and I think that um For Myself at least for my brain. Um, it can be really hard to figure out how intimate a relationship is supposed to be for the other person and Often it comes across as me either being too interested in the person or Too uninterested in the person um And thinking that I don't share the same thing Oh, just thinking that I don't like I don't want to be in the relationship or I want a different type of relationship with somebody. Um, whether it's a friendship who Is expecting us to talk once a week and I'm thinking oh, I want to talk every day Or I'm somebody who wants to talk once a month and those are all valid ways to communicate But there's an assumption of This type of relationship needs this sort of communication or this type of relationship needs this level of intimacy I think that's really complicated. Yeah, um and Uh, often people share with me that they're that they get feedback from the people in their lives About that there's a right and a wrong way to interact like that It only counts if you are going out to dinner Like it only counts if you are in real life real light like as though it's not real life to have a connection with someone Um on a zoom meeting or a phone meeting or that you go five years without interacting as long as it You pick up where you left off kind of thing. Um, so I'm I'm wondering for for we can we start with the folks here um Has anyone found anything helpful some strategies about um Perspective taking when you're communicating with someone when you're in any kind of relationship that You just you you know, you're not on the same page Anything but helpful Um in the in the chat. Yeah, um in the chat we have Laura saying I once talked to a really happy neuro mixed couple Who live apart monday through friday and together on weekends and it worked really great for their needs um, I think that's a really great example of Making relationship structures non-traditional to work with everybody's brain um when my my husband's sitting here, um When when we met um, so like when seara gave the example Um of like there's no right way to like the stages of a relationship on our first date Um, no, it was our it was our second date that we like covered our like goals of care and our advanced our advanced Directives like we just like got to it like just boom and actually on our second date I had said um, we're we're probably gonna get married And like that was not Typical Uh, but just just got to the point. Um I don't mean to have my back to you Matt Yeah, yeah, because I'm so tall. I'm blocking the sun for you. Yeah. Yeah, I'm for 11. Um for those in zoomland. Anyway Um, I I I think even in um when Even in really long-term relationships where people really know each other very well There's still a lot of Brain rules. Um, so for those there's like there's a couple folks.  They don't like it. Um, um, but uh You know, I I there's another another there's there's more people in the chat that they they knew they were gonna they were gonna marry Um, their partners on the first. Yeah, sorry. Just get to the point. Great. Anyway, um, but Um, brain rules and relationships are totally a thing like I had so many brain rules like I Loved when people could predict and anticipate my needs So it was like a brain rule that like if you really care about me, you're gonna read my mind Um, that's a brain rule It's it's it's a world rule that people have access needs and that you're supposed to communicate them to people and that I absolutely agree. I think that there's a lot of brain rules both that come from like The view of what your relationship should look like on the outside and the view of how you and A partner whether we're talking about Romantic partner friendship a relationship with a parent or their family member should look um And I think I think about this.  You can finish I was just rambling I I think if I'm being honest, I think a big challenge for me was Overcoming what I thought other people would think of my relationship um Like I can think of an example way early on that Instead of getting me a bouquet of flowers My partner got me a pack of pansies that you would like plant in the ground and I remember being like horrified Like who would get this like I if you're getting somebody flowers You get them a bouquet of flowers and when we talked about it He was like, well, you can plant those and they're gonna stay alive and you could keep them Like I thought it was nice and I was like mad because I'm like how am I gonna walk in and show my parents Like this is what my boyfriend got me instead of these beautiful flowers And I think it took me a long time to and I think I'm still working Except pansies and and love pansies and not that need to be imagining that that assumed like I I love the paintings, but it was a fear of what other people would think of the way our relationship looked Um, and I think that has taken a lot of time to try and sort out those brain rules versus world rules And what works for us versus what other people want to see Thank you. I think that's a really great point that um, I think that I talk about this a lot with like lgbtq and queer relationships and I think it's talked a lot about in that sense of Um, sometimes your relationship doesn't look like what you thought it would or what other people thought it would And it's okay to grieve that sometimes and it's okay to feel like Even though this is a great thing and I'm really happy in this relationship Like I'm really happy with the pansies, but it's okay to feel a little unsettled by that and it's okay to feel Um, whether you're grieving the loss of a Future self that you thought you would be or whatever ends up being It's okay to feel a little unsettled about that and that doesn't mean that everything's horrible and you're doing everything wrong I think you have to do You're gonna run into a bunch of brain rules You know that out front It helps a lot a lot you know, because I remember I shaved off my beard on one date and Trudy didn't even she was on the date and she wouldn't even kiss me goodbye She was like totally had just a weird emotional reaction to that And um So yeah, anyway, you're gonna run into them And I think if you just accept that that's part of it and you're gonna work through it It helps a lot. That's definitely helped for this when i'm working with clients and um Oh, no worries, um when I uh when i'm working with clients and and i'm gonna talk about this with uh people in my own life too, um a great way to foster communication is to talk um You don't have to get specific about any given subject when talking about values is relating to it and can Well, it can provide a broader understanding and um, if there's a conflict happening It can lift you above the conflict to what really matters Oh, I love electronics backtesting Okay, um, yeah, that's just my my uh Little trick of late. Um instead of talking about the specific subject talk about how you feel about it or uh delve into You know Your reasoning or or you know broaden the conversation Thank you for that. Um one thing so so I I feel like so Much of my own because I don't I thought I was neurotypical until like a year and a half ago and um I feel like I've learned so much about my like develop my identity through social media of like seeing total strangers Like articulate my innermost thoughts like in an infographic like whoa I would never have been able to find the language to articulate this like deep part of my identity Thanks random stranger on instagram. Um, but anyway, um Uh, I saw this this this post a few months ago that I have personally found very helpful And then I've shared with a bunch of people and I'm gonna share it with everyone So a lot of times with um, uh, like like uh communication guidance It's about like the eye statements or like just like like a specific Way that there's like a right way to communicate about yourself and like that didn't really ever work for me. Um So this one When you said this The story I told myself Was this Wow And that has been really helpful because it doesn't have to be rational. It doesn't have to be The same as theirs. It's just like I'm telling you the truth My truth is that the story I told myself a story and it was this and that that's That's gone a long way. We have some we've got some nodding heads here Um, and someone is and a couple people in the chat saying, uh, yes, I've had that experience too. Um, yeah um How about in in zoom world any strategies that anyone else has found helpful about to support perspective taking In in relationships talking about literally everything That's in the chat. Yeah, um in and and um sometimes It's about finding the right time and the right, um The right approach to talking about something or communicating about something like in My in my relationship. I don't know where my husband went. He left without communicating. Um, okay Um, but but like he has the kind of brain that like Legit hates to talk about things Like it's the auditory auditory processing that is hard But like, you know, we could write emails so we can communicate about all the things but not in like, um Often when there's a mismatch between like I have the kind of brain that needs to Verbably, you know, like in spoken speech dump all the things right now because otherwise, you know It's like involves a whole lot of impulse control and working memory and executive functioning to like do the things some other time That's hard too. So kind of negotiating Negotiating that and that comes up with a lot of my a lot of my patience too of especially when when when both members of a relationship have Um, I mean it's conflicting access needs is really what it comes down to Is that if I have the kind of brain that needs Complete quiet at the same time that someone else has the kind of brain that needs to talk out loud right now like that is That that that's a conflicting access need and it's not that one of us has you know, our needs are more important than the other um in the chat Picking the right time and space to talk about something important seems to be very important. Yeah Yeah, super well said and above that Taking for granted that we love each other and that most of our conflicts come for misunderstanding Not from us not loving each other um Taking space to process Reflective listening Another comment asking many questions to get information, but sometimes that can be annoying Oh, yes. Yes Um in and in and in my house and this doesn't relate to uh romantic relationship But even just like my relationship with my five-year-old. I'm not allowed to ask questions Our new thing is we actually we made an access need board on the fridge um and um Her access needs are to not have any Unsolicited bids for attention like Like including like don't wave to her in the morning. She flips her lid It's violating her access needs because she's thinking about something She's like got something going on and for me to say good morning is an interruption for her thing So anyway, I've been trying to follow the thing on the access board Um, and um, I'm not allowed to ask questions. I can wonder I wonder if you want chocolate or vanilla ice cream, but I am not allowed to ask a direct question It's a trigger. It's a limbic trigger and she doesn't. Oh, there's more people in the waiting room Um, you got them. Yeah, all right. Cool Yeah, um I wonder so conflicting access needs like as a theme, you know, we like that I can talk about that all day. It's it's it's the key to the universe. I wonder how how what what what uh, I'll start with the folks here on this at the state house. Um, conflicting access needs in relationships you've been Yeah, Liam Conflicting needs and that has always put a strain in our relationship And I don't know how to describe it. It's like basically everything that I need. She hates and vice versa And I I don't have a happy ending to this story. We just we just we don't talk much anymore Yeah, it's it's it's it's a work in progress Yeah, do you think that she recognizes the that it's a conflicting access needs problem Because even getting that stage might be really helpful I'm not sure I don't want to I don't want to like assume that she's not aware, but I also don't want to assume that she is I don't want to make an assumption or Imply anything about her I so I really don't know Yeah um, and I think that um because because I talk with a lot of people personally and professionally who have strains and relationships, um, and Uh Conflicting access needs as a theme Is just so common and mostly because We're not at a place where it's Talked about a lot of times when you have to like frame it as an access need like everybody has access needs Everybody needs something in order to meaningfully participate in their lives Was that? Oh my goodness Hold on Absolutely I'm gonna what are you still in the process of logging back on? But your mic should If I switched if I if we have sierra's mic be the mic would that be or it's connecting. It still says it's connecting How about now? So uh, so so an access need um, so an access need is What to participate meaningfully in life So this could be things in the physical environment like um, I needed to be quiet in order for me to participate in the activity of thinking um really Um, uh, I might need I might need to know that someone likes me in order to feel safe in a relationship um, I might need Close captioning on when I'm participating in a zoom meeting. So these are all like there's all different types of access needs um and Framing it that way can be really helpful. This is what I need in order to participate in this relationship in this conversation in this meeting um, and Anyway, I um, just just I I I wonder if If that resonates with anybody else about like relationship strain related to two people needing Things that conflict at the same time There's some nodding heads here I was thinking about examples of some dating experiences and um, I guess thinking about it with this kind of a sense of humor, but how I realized thinking back to a lot of The experience says that I feel overwhelmed when there's maybe I get a certain type that it's asking like If I'm getting asking multiple times a day, like how am I feeling or just another and we're getting like Are we a couple yet or are we dating or what's our status or you know, it's like it's like 15 minutes later How are you feeling right now? What's your status? Do you like me? I don't know like I don't know I get over Extremely overwhelmed and they want to just kind of run away, but if I think about it a different way Like it doesn't mean anything is wrong with that person that um, If you frame it, you know as an access need, maybe there's a better way to communicate You know Instead of run your way Relationship I've ever been in before my husband because like my access need is that because I think it's because I have the kind of brain that finds it really hard to know whether someone likes me or not Um, I have a hard time interpreting Um, uh, you know like really not I wouldn't say that I have a hard time interpreting expressions It's that I take in too many expressions I take in like so many like little things and I'm like analyzing like what does that mean and so um I'm just gonna assume that like when you when I when I saw that little mini furrow of your brow That means you don't like me Um, and that's like childhood trauma. That's like what goes on in the world of growing up neurodivergent Anyway, um um One thing that that makes me think of is when um, we have some people saying the same and relatable so very common experiences sounds like um One thing that I that direct things like an access need we're like somebody needs in my case I need like pretty constant communication to know that I'm Somebody likes me and like we've said and my partner does not like communicating or texting especially virtual communication And so we settled on a compromise of three texts a day morning afternoon and night to like make sure that They're alive make sure that they still like me and Then they don't have to be texting me constantly.  Um, and so sometimes it's just being able to really kind of openly talk about Those access needs and find the mic sounds fuzzy and in and out Okay, um And so yeah, so sometimes it's just really communicating those Well, I think another thing that this has been making me think of is sometimes I find that um In relationships where people have conflicting access needs. It can be nice for people to take turns masking. I think that there's a um There's an assumption sometimes that like perfect connections or perfect relationships mean that you should never have to mask And I think that's not always true um So much better awesome um And sometimes it means one person taking a turn to like mask and not get their access needs met So the other person can fully get their needs met for 20 minutes and then you switch and Being able to sometimes use that as a way to kind of get everything out. Oh, what is masking? It's a great question. Um I I think there's a lot a lot of different views. I think of masking as a um um putting on A mask whether it's carrying yourself a certain way dressing a certain way using certain facial expressions to appear less Neurodivergent, I guess in this case. Um, I don't know if you have a yeah And I would say that that you might be just I wonder if you're describing something about, um Just like as a negotiation strategy for um, like it's kind of like, uh Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles But I will watch an episode with luna I wouldn't necessarily think about that as masking. I would think about that as like I'm not torturing myself by watching Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.   You tell me whether or the way So it's like, um, yeah, it's not it doesn't give me dopamine It's not particularly pleasing But like I really care about having a good connection with luna So I will watch this show even though like I have zero interest in it Masking I would like and and I guess I guess it's important I think when people use any word is like, what do you mean? You know tell me more about what you mean by that word and so when I think people mean different things by that word Um, so I wonder the way you used it sierra. Was it kind of like the way I was just describing the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle thing as opposed to I guess as an almost an emotional suppression or suppressing your like native reaction where if Um, somebody wants to kind of ramble on about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and I'm not excited about it I'm not gonna say. Oh, I'm not excited about this. I'm just gonna leave. I'm just gonna sit and listen because that's What's gonna make My kid happy or whatever Right, and I think that when oh go ahead sierra. Yeah So for me, this is kind of dovetailing really well with the idea that idea of perspective taking um because um Like If I'm for example watching Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles to experience the Experience it from the perspective of someone I care about and experience what it's like to be This person I care about And how an experience the world through their eyes. That's a that's a um That's a that's a relationship building thing and it's also a like a building thing in me Like I get to experience the world from a different way of being and the Just to totally wing off on this but um The thing that sort of the really geeky part that that I kind of love about the perspective taking thing is like I mean, this is it's like it's how Einstein discovered relativity It's like he experienced he looked he is like everybody else looked at the world of subatomic particles as like big people who and and subata and Through the what it was like to be a subatomic particle from the perspective of massive Beings and Einstein looked at the world. They've discovered relativity by looking at the world of subatomic particles through the world of subatomic particles And so and and what would it be like to be a subatomic particle? If I were a subatomic particle, how would I experience the universe? And so what we're really talking about we're talking about this incredible This incredible way of experiencing life And and so I guess in some ways if I do this this if I some some ways if I think well, I'm I'm suppressing myself but in other another way I'm I'm really I'm sort of I well I'm turning myself into a pretzel but but but but to experience the world Through a lens that I couldn't experience it unless I turned myself into a pretzel Einstein was autistic Yeah, yeah, um, by the way, you just made me care about physics For the first time in my life That's amazing Comment in the chat for me Masking is sometimes matching the energy of the people around me so as to not upset them Yeah, yeah, um, and I think that so and there was another comment in the chat a couple of ago about masking as a survival strategy So when we talk about that masking like we really want to discourage masking for purposes of like I have to hide my true self in order to survive like um You got to leave that environment And it's unfortunate because there's so many people who don't have control over their environment So masking as a survival strategy Um, like it's not safe to unmask Um, and this comes up in all kinds of settings and it's because people don't really understand brains They don't understand what you know, they don't understand what stimming is they don't understand what dysregulation manifestations look like across people in different settings and it becomes It really is a survival strategy Um comment in the chat I think the default is that the neurodivergent person needs a mask or to change to meet a neurotypical person's needs I like the idea that the responsibility is on both people to worry about meeting the other person's needs Yeah, yeah, it or and meeting your own needs In order to fit in and be liked. Yes, liya. Right exactly. So so um, many people grow up There's a video that I think that I I I I don't remember when I played it. It might have been in internalized shame Bring club a couple months ago.  Um, because The message is is being given explicitly or implicitly that somebody's fundamental way of being in the world is wrong and broken and needs to be trained out of and that's that's not good for mental health like at all and and and and masking or camouflaging sometimes it's it's um, it's it's referred to and just a A trigger warning briefly for the concept of suicide but masking and camouflaging is There's research that shows that that is independently correlated with Suicidality and so anytime people are being given the message that they need to hide their true selves. It's it's it's very bad for mental health That other thing that I think is frightening is that I think masking is the primary message being put out there in like marriage counseling and couples counseling Like if you have a neuromics couple, it seems like that's the go-to mentality is that the that one partner needs to mask and That will solve the problems and it seems like that just makes everything a lot worse Yes Right, and that's this this double empathy problem is is really turning that on its head So many people who end up in traditional Marriage counseling couples counseling whatever that Laura said that is the message that that people get and you know, I hear this from my patients all the time And it's right. It's terrible advice Um, and it's that you know, this person needs to change this person needs to do the thing and as though there's one thing to be done Laura, I'm wondering can you speak at all about about you about your research study? About the neuro mixed couples. I would find that so interesting related to this Yeah, so um, the study that I did was on um, neuro I shouldn't even say neurotypical partners, but people who identify themselves as neurotypical and identify their partners as neurodivergent Um, this was all by self-report. So I didn't and I think one of the really important disclaimers right off the cuff is that A lot of the people who I interviewed so these are like the the supposed nt partners the neurotypical partners um A lot of their partners weren't even self diagnosed. So these are partners that are saying I think my partner is autistic um, but basically what these participants were were sharing with me was That things went really well in their relation. I'm sorry. I've got some noise in the background Things went really well if they looked at their partner as an equal and they saw it as this mutual reciprocity type relationship where they're a team and they each hang on that They each have needs and those needs are different and that's normal and that's okay um, but the more that they look at their partner's needs and kind of logical and more that they viewed it as like their disorder and they have a problem um, the more two more talk relation relation anything I'm surprised um And the less and less happy the the person who identified as not autistic became in the relationship um, I could go into a lot more detail, but that's the gist of it and that that that that makes so much sense that if you view someone you're in a relationship with as having Pathology like that's not gonna That doesn't really contribute very well to co-regulation. Um, and it It's disappointing and and not surprising um One of the other things that happens also is that there is and again, this is this is I think going back to brain rules Of what it means to be an adult There are so many brain rules about what it means to be an adult. So often um People will share with me. Well, you know, my husband should be able to Do the thing because he's an adult or you know, my partner should be able to do the thing because they're You know They're a parent and this is what parents do like just brain rules of like what it means to to Be a person um, like when when really we're really talking about guess what one and five people has executive functioning differences at least, you know, so Being an adult. Um, what when people use that they are often referring to like This is what it looks to have typical executive functioning skills, but Many people do not Um in the chat, there are so many marriage and couples counseling books and messages out there that basically focus on how to work together to Quote help the autistic person to basically look less autistic in essence. Just totally ignoring that person's needs yeah and um that That's not good for the health of the couple for the health of the individual for the couple of all the For the people in all the couples lives Yeah, I wonder in zoom world. Um The the idea of like so I just we have about 15 minutes left. Is there Anything that's standing out to folks about access needs perspective taking brain rules or something else We haven't talked about entirely about about relationships that That is on anyone's mind Feel free to i'm actually looking at the screen if you oh laura go ahead I'm sorry. I feel like i'm dominating but one more thing from my research I just feel like is really important to say is that there are a lot of online support groups out there for neurotypical partners of Autistic or neurodivergent folks And there I would just tell people like if you're in a relationship and your partner's thinking about those or you're thinking about those To be really really cautious. Um, a lot of them are actually kind of paid groups in disguise as support groups And they end up being a lot of venting and bashing and negative stereotyping and Pretty toxic places. So I would just really caution people before going to those as a place of actual support Thank you for saying that linda I want to share Some advice that my dad gave me for anyone who needs to hear it. This is a dad speaking And i'll share my dad with you He said to me linda beth Just because everyone tells you you're wrong It does not mean that you are in fact wrong So Take that I think that there's also this element of just um Learning to trust your intuition like a lot of people who Get the message over a course of a lifetime that that that You're wrong. You're doing it wrong. You don't know the thing like you you you really Predictably lose touch with intuition Um, and a lot of times is like, oh well, you know, it's just maybe it's just me but or and really like the invalidation from The environment leads to self invalidation of not not trusting your instinct go ahead lamb I was told that basically my whole life by schools When people would have conflicts with me I was always the one in the wrong from their eyes always the one who just misunderstood And it and it finally I realized how Ridiculous it was in my first year of university. I was told well Why did you expect people to follow quiet hours? And I was like those are the established rules this time. It is not me And now I'm I'm able to see a little bit better sometimes when it really isn't just me books ever Um is bernie browns. I thought it was just me, but it isn't Um and like talking about shame shame the you know the profoundly You know the powerful negative emotion of feeling defective and deficient And like one of the most powerful things you can do when you recognize feeling shame is to tell someone else because almost always they will say Me too. And then the shame is like automatically dissipated like pretty quickly In the chat, I think it's less that specifically And more that neurotypical is the default. And so we're all taught to act Neurotypically. Yeah, thanks for saying that lia. I mean when um often we get um We get calls and emails from community members being like do you teach social skills like No, um, we do not we bring people together based on their shared interest because guess what there is not a Universal like default set of social skills when you bring people together based of shared interests You talk about access needs and you you know, you don't violate people's access needs other people's access needs That's the only world rule of social skills um is yeah Um, we had um one one of our one of our junior advisory council members a nine-year-old I said, what do you think we should do to help kids feel like they belong and the sweet little love said You just let us do what we love What like what do you mean? And he's like if I just you just let me do what I love and you let that go Like really it really it really is that that's simple Um, and so when you like bring people together in like a group and you're like oh All you you don't know how to do that thing. Let me train you how to do the neurotypical social skill thing like guess what not good for mental health In the chat, I I'm having trouble scrolling. Um Yeah, I think the chat was talking a little bit about being shocked that their advice Um that there is advice telling people to pretend to be something that they're not in an intimate relationship. Um And laurid said that it's the default in the medical model to focus on treatment rather than co-adaptation and accepting differences And then social skills is a limited meeting in the neurotypical world. Absolutely And uh david wrote um that this is very helpful My oldest kid's partner is autistic and they mask all the time and is moving in It will help me understand that I need to tell them that they don't need to mask Oh, that would be the like like the single most beautiful and supportive thing And it's possible that that that person has never been told that ever Um, what what a gift That you will be to them Yeah, good. Yeah I was just um thinking about um this maybe the success rate for Couples when they're both neurodivergent like I've been thinking for a while That's like the only way to go. I mean not saying the only way but Uh, would it make things a lot easier? You know, um terms of being understood Sound issue Nina. I think what I heard you say um was that I was picking up context clues because it was breaking up every other word But that there's an alternative to being told that people need social skills training. Is that what you were saying? Or did I miss that? entirely if It's something like Would you mind saying it one more time? I'm sorry to ask you to repeat yourself. I want to make sure I miss you no problem Yeah, I just I've been thinking for uh over a while like Is it just much easier just you know, what are the success rates? When the couple when they're both neurodivergent, you know, I mean we're talked about people that don't know We'll talk to people who are I guess mixed um terms of their you know status, but I mean is does that make things like dramatically easier? I feel like I connect more naturally to people that are also neurodivergent neuro can absolutely um, so um I think it depends on where people are own self awareness in any type of relationship if you can if you're If you come to understand your own brain your own needs and you're working on niche Construction designing your life based on your brain's needs in your environment in your relationships in your work and your play and your everything Like yeah, that works out pretty well. Um when we have um situations where there are you know multiple neurodivergent partners um and one is coming to self awareness and Others are not just not in that place of the journey.  I think in um in two weeks when we have the neurodiversity and employment brain club Um, uh, I have so many stories where like people will be like well, I got fired from this job or like Oh, you know this conflict with my boss and it's like yep that was possibly multiple neurodivergent people with brain rules with conflicting access needs um and Some of them knew it and some of them didn't um, but remember we're talking about one in five people um who thinks learns communicates in a way that substantially departs from the like So-called typical brain even though that's I don't think that's a thing But the brain that like society has deemed um, you know Yeah, the story that's been created. That's exactly exactly right. Um Yeah, um, um, so so um autistic adults being taught their whole life to act a certain Way, so it's like stunting growth never able to develop a true self until um Until there's often some kind of critical shifting point And i'm just growing up to Megan's point as an autistic adult Please keep space for people who continue to mask often It's unintentional after so many years of having to have learned social skills aka masking hard to turn it off absolutely um and um often so in in my experience And this is certainly my experience as an autistic adult. Um, and it's the experience of many of my patients People first learn that they are autistic in the context of something called autistic burnout Which is um, uh, reaching, you know, profound levels of dopamine deficiency Disregulation mismatch from the environment and the people in it that basically it's a disintegration of executive functioning And you need executive functioning skills to mask And so when you lose the ability to mask That is often when people, um, may be more likely to manifest more quote stereotypical medical model definitions of autism That's how I got my diagnosis And you know, I I sure did showing up the way I show up now, but I didn't used to show up that way I used to have like a pretty intense like very Very Just so kind of professional mask because in the medical environment it is completely unsafe to be anything else You are actively shamed for anything else So I really appreciate everybody coming Um, um in zoom here on the steed house a big thank you to orca media for making this possible and um, I'm super excited that um This is our largest ever brain club like this is so cool and you know, um, I and and and people say it can't be done That there's always a default and then like a sidebar But I don't I don't think it's necessarily true and I really appreciate all of you being here tonight to make that so Thanks, everyone, and we hope to see you next tuesday um, uh for more more neurodiversity and uh family Dynamics next week, um and the week after neurodiversity and employment Yeah, thanks everybody