Thank you all of you who have tuned in to participate and hear us hear this conversation My name is autumn McDonald and I am the head of new America, California New America is I think an action tank based out of DC and we are also a civic enterprise So we do a lot of work related to economic equity income to jobs voice Power if you will and so we're really thrilled to have you all here joining us for this conversation This is the fourth and final session in our series covered in the black community and this session is focusing in on black community voice Civic engagement and identities role in safety and resilience We are going to get started in just a few moments, but I first wanted to just let you know who who is with us So we have Alicia Hatch who is the vice president and chief of campaigns at color of change We have dr. Joseph Marshall who is the co-founder and executive director of Alive and free and also a MacArthur genius fellow We have Latifah Simon who is president of the Akonati Foundation and is also a MacArthur genius fellow Thank you all Dr. Marshall Aisha and Latifah for joining us really looking forward to this conversation for those of you tuned in if you're Stid and taking the conversation online. Please feel free to do so with your social media tool of choice And please tag in New America, California if you end the speakers if you are interested in doing so Finally, I want to thank the MacArthur Foundation and cash app for helping to make this conversation possible With that, let's go ahead and get started. I wanted to start with you dr. Marshall I wanted to start us off by just giving a sense getting a sense rather of You your story if you could tell us a little bit more about you What is your two-minute story and how does it relate to how you are experiencing this moment if you will? That would take more than two minutes. So I'm gonna give you the clip no version I mean, I read first a guy say hi Latifah. I've known Latifah a long time. We are close in different ways Maybe she'll tell I'm not sure I'm working with youth all my life really since I walked out of college and You know went from a teacher to an administrator and then started my own youth program Basically, it's a violence prevention program Wanted to keep kids a lot of my a lot of my former students were falling into drugs and gangs and that sort of thing And so I decided I wanted to do something about that and Open my big mouth and said if you could stay on the right track, you know, I pay for your college education By the way, never say that. Well, I'm happy to say that this year we're gonna have 250 college graduates But that led me to doing a lot of other things a lot of people asked me how I was able to Stop young people from getting into trouble. I developed this model which I called the alive and free prescription which is looking at violence from a disease standpoint It's as close to a medical mouth as you can get so You know the my change the name or the least the the name the official name to alive and free because my goal It always meant to keep young people alive and free and unharmed by violence as I began to teach others one of the persons that noticed that I was You know doing well with this was the man who is now the current governor of the state of California Gavin Newsom was a mayor at that time and then he asked me to become a member of the San Francisco police commission Which I asked him why did you do that? He said because you are fair. So I step into a world. I had never Done. It was very intimidating at the beginning, but for 14 years I was and I got in here because my young people were being involved with the police. It was simple. I don't want I wanted to make sure those things went fair. Those encounters were were okay. And so for the last 14 years.  I was on a police commission Trying to do something about police accountability and reform. We had a very serious incident out here. Basically, our George Floyd And we were pushed into fast track and doing a police reform. And so that's pretty much the two things I bring to this conversation is my work with young people and And my my things around police reform. That's that's about two minutes, but it started a long time ago. I've been Since I was a president of BSU at my university It started a long time. Fantastic. I appreciate that. I would love to dig it just a little bit deeper. If you could tell us a little bit more about alive and free. Just, you know, what you guys are up to. And specifically how the concept of violence as a disease and also the focus on young people came to be Love to hear a little bit more about that. Well, it can't be because I was a teacher and when you know you get a letter from one of your kids. If you thought was going to college and he's in jail. You know for selling drugs or you know you end up going to his funeral, a student funeral. Or it just floored me. And so I wanted to be able to help the kids, you know, basically stay alive and free. That was my thing.  And I want to develop what I call a surefire way of doing that. I knew was more than just, you know, my desire and my efforts. There's a lot of good teachers around it. I wanted to make it as, as, as scientific as I possibly could. So I came up with this. I call it a prescription and it involves, you know, risk factor surveillance. It involves the thinking that goes into violence. It goes, it deals with, you know, the emotional residue that young people have And we gave them some rules to live by because I want to replace the thinking that they had, you know, with regard to trying to be streetwise. So I really thought this was my laboratory has always been young people. I'm much better with kids than I am with adults. I will say that I will say that. And, you know, they would come in and people would say, yeah, but violence is everywhere. So then it became, you know, The disease of balance around the world and I've been really lucky to identify. I mean, my goal is a world without incarceration and world without Without violence, which is like shooting for the moon. Right. But this prescription. In fact, I've been getting a lot of calls with COVID and people are saying, Doc, they may not have a cure for COVID, but you got to cure. We got to cure for the disease. People just aren't necessarily willing to listen. But yeah, it's very specific and the kids follow it.  I know it sounds crazy, but I've never lost a kid with violence. Thank you for sharing that. And it's great to hear about the success you've had with engaging with young people and pushing in the way that you have for the last several decades. I am curious if you would tell me a little bit about what you think the opportunity is in this moment. And so what I'll preface that with is that when I was in grad school, we used to talk about policy windows. Oh, there's this policy window. There's this opportunity to do this thing. And I wonder what your thoughts on how this doesn't become kind of like a moment, like an activism fad, if you will, that we look back, you know, six months from now, 10 years from now and just think of it as kind of like a moment that we went through and then we kind of went back to, you know, bounced back into the old ways. Do you have any ideas about what's possible with this opportunity? One of the advantages of living a long time is that you've seen a lot. So I've seen this before. I grew up in Los Angeles and you remember Rodney King would have an after Rodney King, but I was there for the first wise riots. So I've seen this several times. And I want to say a lot, something good came out of all of that. Did it solve all the problems? No, I always say this is a marathon relay race, you know, for equality, freedom and justice and there's always something to be worked on. Having said that, I have a very good friend named Clarence Jones and he is Martin Luther King's personal attorney and speechwriter. And I was talking to Clarence the other day, he's sort of my mentor, and he said he's never seen anything like this. This moment in time, he said even more so than when he came with marching. So I think what we've seen around the nation, but more importantly around the world, is very significant. And I mean, you never know, it depends on how hard people work. If there was a time, what's the phrase to keep your eyes on the prize? This is the time to keep your eyes on the prize. I mean, I'm a worker. So my big thing is when the marches stop, and I don't want to stop, the work has to be done. You don't get anything without working. And what does Frederick Douglass say, if there is no struggle, there is no progress. So I think this is the moment of time. And I'm taking full advantage of it. And I hope everybody else does. About everything, about policing, about racism, about any of those issues, please, you have permission now if you were looking for it, go for it. Thank you. And I like that idea of the marathon relay race, because, you know, it's definitely a long haul, but relay makes me think about how people need to take up the batons from the person before. And so I like that a lot. I have two more questions I want to ask you and then I do want to incorporate all of you together. After I've kind of asked each of you a few questions, but you mentioned your role on the San Francisco Police Commission, and there's been a lot of talk right now right about what does it look like to reform policing. What is the right language to use when we talk about reforming policing, things like that. I'm curious if there and at a high level I know by no means expect you to have the answer for everything everywhere but if you just share your thoughts on what you think kind of makes the most sense or just your general thoughts would be great. Well, it's crucial if you're going to have a department and Minneapolis has decided that you may not do that. And I know years ago Camden, I actually dismantled this police department and brought this something different. But if you're going to have a police department, I really think there are certain things you need to have. First of all, I would say you got to have a civilian oversight. You don't have civilian oversight. You probably don't have. You don't want the police leaders to please somebody's got to be looking at. And to me it should be civilians. I remember in Ferguson, there was no civilian oversight. One of the reasons that they move forward is they put some sort of civilian oversight San Francisco has probably more civilian oversight than anywhere we got two of them. But but it's necessary. So I think that's first and then next, you know, you got to have a very good use of force policy. But with a bunch of things in it. I mean everything from your body cameras and probably time and distance and and de-escalation right to intervene, having officers intervene so excellent use of force policy. President Obama talked about that the other day. Whatever city you're in, take a look at your use of force policies but but so I think those two things that are main thing to begin with. I mean you got to look at training. You got to look at recruitment. You got to look at all that, you know, bias unconscious bias and conscious bias. There's a whole bunch of things. I think a big thing it when officers decided to let officers do what they want to do.  That's the hard thing to do because they see themselves as a fraternity. But it can also always be improved just this morning. I mean, let's leave Tifa knows Mayor Breed here, put some more things out. You know, we've been doing pretty good, but we can always do better. So those are the things basically I think to start a civilian oversight. I've been talking to people around the country that don't have civilian oversight and they've asked me, you know, how do you do it? And you use the force policy or at least basis to begin to have good policing and probably in the end you got to get people, you know, to protect and serve. I don't like to turn for community policing. I like to turn public relations policing, because really in the end you got to you got to get people every encounter that a person has with a police officer and I grew up in South Central Santa. So you can imagine the kind of that is can shape the way you see police forever. So, you know, I think how departments train police to deal with the public will go along a long way to having things changed. And of course you got to get rid of people that don't belong there. That's for sure. Thank you for sharing that it made me think of I think that Chris walk joke or it was not even a joke. It's really serious about you can't have bad apples or certain professions where that there's just no space for bad apples. But I would love to ask you one last quick question, which is related to identity in general. I noticed on your website that you have some different events listed and one of them is a qualms of celebration and so I'm interested in how culture and identity play into your work. As it relates to both working with kids in general, as you think of this moment, you know what it means to be to be to identify as black to be black. What are your thoughts on how that plays into how you show up. I tell the kids all the time I would not be doing this work.  I probably be working on my third BMW always tell the kids and I certainly wouldn't be paying for kids to go to college and weren't my own mouth them was just open my eyes to everything and the big thing you open my eyes to was history and culture. I mean, I know anything, literally, I mean George Washington Carver and everybody else know, but I always knew growing up in my neighborhood that there was someone right. And he helped me you put his finger on someone right and then when he opened that door he opened the door not just to history in this country, but I had never heard of, you know, mhotep I never heard of camera, I had never heard any of that stuff.  And the first thing they talk about is what was it like before so history and culture drives everything around here. It's still a huge void. And it's funny, a young man one of my young men I hooked him with and he was a drug dealer at the time and I said if you knew what I knew you wouldn't do what you do. What do you know what he didn't know was the history and culture that I knew, and it drives everything around here, every single thing is based on our history, our culture, and you know our beauty, our grace and all that we can achieve. Hmm. Thank you for that I appreciate it. I want to pull Latifah into this and Latifah I know that the Akanari Foundation does a lot related to culture and art in in this racial justice work that you do. But before we go there, can you take two minutes to tell us your story. Who are you. You know it's interesting. I've known Dr. Marshall. You're not aging Dr. Marshall and I am so it's it's kind of weird you look exactly the same I don't know what kind of emotion you're using. I was a young person involved in a lot of craziness in San Francisco and I became a youth organizer. So Dr. Marshall was one of the literally we caught one of the street soldiers him and Jack Jack was when we're young people on the streets and in jail young people who are on probation. And he started a really popular radio show that is still on the air that Brothers and Sisters by the thousands listen to every Sunday. That is intergenerational, but also my late husband by the way it'll be six years Dr. Marshall on Monday passed away on Father's Day in 2014. The young Westin was a radical journalist who was also best friends with your son a radical journalist. So we're family, and we're family in the larger context of wanting to ensure that there's a roadmap for freedom for all people who've experienced freedom. So again I came to the work as a young person. Not just a need of services but somebody who needed and deserved a community to find her power. And being at the Center for Young Women's Development now the Young Women's Freedom Center a 25 year old organization that does just that training young women to understand that they too deserve a pathway, both to employment, politics, and clear understanding that they can actually change policy, both on the individual or the futures I should say both on the individual and from policy and organizing change. So that that shifted my life, and I then went on to do a lot of work inside and outside of government and work with Kamala developed a reentry initiative she was in DA Harris, and went on to lead and run some some great organizations focused on civil rights and racial justice and now I'm the president of the Akhenati Foundation. That was founded by Quinn Delaney and Wayne Jordan Akhenati was funding the Center for Young Women's Development when you know we launched our first campaign to ban the shackling of pregnant incarcerated girls when they were given birth and juvenile in 1999 and so it's beautiful to be on the other side of the table. So that's my two minutes. But yeah it's really beautiful to be in conversation with you all today. You already told us a little bit about the focus of the Akhenati Foundation, and I know that one of the values is that kind of cultural expression. I had the benefit of going to a few of the different events that you had where you had really artists activists talking and sharing their work. Can you tell us a little bit why a little bit more about why it's important to have that as a piece of the work, the culture, the identity. Yeah, I mean it's not a new concept where funding what is has always been seminal in movements for justice in this country. There's never been a movement of suffrage I'm not just talking about voting but of folks coming together to fight against whether structural inequities without culture being centered, whether it be visual art or cultural art sort of ethnic art. We have to remember it was Fannie Lou Hamer who was literally the voice of the Civil Rights Movement, the Snick singers were at the front of every March that we read about these big marches it was the singers it was the folks who who literally did the panthers. There were they had artists who actually drew these beautiful images of what power could look like on paper not just in real life. You'll notice that downtown Oakland California is a living gallery now to struggle and freedom They put up boards, you know, on all of these buildings that were damaged in the uprising. Cultural artists and organizers understand that this moment must never be forgotten they put it up these beautiful images throughout the town, expressing really this this promise of hope culture always seems to come before movement they are the visionaries. They're sort of the artists and architects if you would imagine of things that we can't imagine we can't see. So culture as power as a clear vision and understanding of how movements move. The Okanari Foundation has always funded culture as a form of resistance. During the COVID moment, what's really important, we are bored, allowed us to take a million dollars and we're a small family foundation out of our reserves to create a fund that did four things and this is important. Art and culture first, voice meaning good journalism in this moment so that people who look like the people that are moving movements are actually telling the correct stories and getting the information into East into the West right into the Fruitvale to people who really need to hear the not only the stories of desperation but the stories of triumph and we're also funding organizing like like good based building power building in communities. The reform that you see that is happening around the country or the conversations about it from governments on high, it would not be for the folks in the streets and the artists and the organizers and the bull horns. And, and honestly the city is burning that brought people to this conversation of international reckoning on race, and we believe that culture is always at the front of that game. That's really powerful and it's like you're clairvoyant because I was going to ask you about how are things different in any way if they are related to the COVID era, or as it relates to what's been going on in terms of the recent attention to police brutality. Yeah, absolutely. No, I was just going to say I felt like you kind of went there already if you want to add something to that by all means I had another question for you because I felt like you kind of answered that let me let me pause you go ahead and answer that and then ask you another question.  I can't imagine being alive in the time of the Watts riots my grandmother, her family have businesses on Black Wall Street in in Oklahoma and Tulsa and their racial terror ravaged you know generations of folks figuring out how to survive on land where they were not welcomed. So this moment for me, if we're, if we're not a historical and we remember what Malcolm X said, he said, I don't have a chip on my shoulder. You have your foot in my neck, right, for black and brown men. Clearly, there is opportunity for us to understand the horrors of racialized terror in this country that they have endured. And it is also the reality that if you put international recession on top of not just the images that we saw towards murder, but we know the intense militarization of communities you just know that it's there. Jobless rate that is double for black and brown folks. The tensions of this moment are unprecedented, but again thinking about culture as a weapon for resistance and power and love and community building. We have an opportunity, as Dr Marshall said, to figure out our pathway forward that that every again not just here but internationally when people have decided that there's no more of this radical imagination develops and real folk in real time figure out how to survive. So yeah, we're in this moment, people are literally dying in our hospitals, they're dying in their homes.  And it's faced also it's mirrored with folks who are leaders who are saying we can do better we can see and transform ourselves into a new future. Thank you so much for that it made me think of so many different things I like the way you were talking about identity and culture. I love the way that you were talking about the ways in which that is kind of pulling us forward in this powerful way to be kind of a zillion in this moment. I was thinking about some of the things we were seeing as people were just trying to wear their masks.  I was looking at some of the figures that said that it is indeed about three times as many. The fatality from COVID is about three times as much for within the black community. There's so many things here that are related to like what does this look like moving forward and you've spoken to a lot of it. But I want to ask the similar question that I did of Dr. Marshall which is this question of how does this not become a racial and social justice blip. Like, you know, we've seen this kind of stuff before we have, you know, three steps backlash. What is the piece that makes this different? Everybody says it's got to be different. How is it different? Well, it is different in that it is in this country, you know, to the comments made earlier. We saw the largest collective human rights show of anger support rage and love for something different just in the last two weeks.  I don't have it. My God. So what we have to make sure those of us in philanthropy and injustice work in an academia. So we give tenor to this moment but we also we must be very clear that this is not a racial justice Coachella. Right. This is not a playground. This is an opportunity to move a nation forward towards the promise of democracy and what is written at the base of the staff of equity in our own organizations that where we're calling for equity. I would ask that the leaders start thinking about what is justice look like and not only outside but in your own organizations and that not just black leaders, but that we have an intersectional politics of how to do right in every institution that we play in and in giving for me, you know, working in a foundation. We have a responsibility to stop the disrespect of black leaders, the divestment of black leaders, the quote unquote white bedding of black leadership. I'm extremely excited that every single time that I pick up the paper in the last couple weeks. Everyone is wrestling with this idea of anti blackness and that multiculturalism should never dilute the reality that anti blackness is at the core of so much of what's wrong in this country and it can be cured. It is a virus racism and anti blackness is a virus but it must be recognized and it will not absolutely not be diminished just by having 200,000 people in the streets. It will take work and a commitment and folks need to it is raining it is storming. The dollars are just not all that needs to roll because we need to be doing that too, but we need to make a commitment to each other that your statements from your corporations and your foundations should absolutely be mirrors to your own activities. So, I think that we're stepping up and we have to hold ourselves accountable every day in this moment, or we are complicit. We're complicit. Oh, okay then. Thank you so much for that Latifa very much appreciate it. I want to bring Alicia now into the conversation and again I will be bringing you all back together. But Alicia, I want to know a little bit about you it's interesting I realized I think that we were both, we're both Stanford alum, but I don't think we were there maybe at the same time, but any long and short, tell us about yourself. I want to appreciate you on and for making me follow the geniuses. If that's the floor for genius, and I just really appreciated hearing that hearing the perspective and the wisdom. My name is Aresha Hatch I'm the Vice President and Chief of campaigns that color of change. I've worked at color change for eight years. I joined in 2012 and two weeks later, Trayvon Martin was killed. My first experience doing racial justice organizing or civil rights organizing and so my perspective is with the scope of 2012 until now. I am also the daughter Patricia, a retired elementary school teacher and the daughter of Ali, who was an insurance salesman. I passed away unfortunately in the beginning of March just before the shelter in place orders, sort of what in place here in California. And so I'm really viewing this moment as a person who has only been doing this sort of work for the last eight years but also as a daughter who's lost her father. The moment that is like struck me most in the last several weeks is that video of Gigi Floyd on the top of Steven Jackson's arms saying Daddy changed the world Daddy changed the world. And so I'm like viewing this again viewing this through the lens of a person who is trying to make meaning out of her father's death. And I really think. And so to see this young girl saying that her dad changed the world I really think it's our duty and our obligation as organizers to help to actually realize that for Gigi like she deserves to have that opinion and that feeling about her father and so that's what's kept me motivated. Along with a lot of caffeine the last several weeks. Thank you for that and thanks for also sharing daughter of. I can't remember exactly was a girl track who started this daughter of that was trending on Twitter and other places but I like this idea. Who are you the daughter of so thank you for sharing that with us. I can even acknowledge. I love to learn just a little bit more about color change. I, I'm familiar with color change but I'd love for those who are new to the organization to have a sense of the work that you do. Can you kind of break it into kind of the C3 the C4 the way that you guys operate. So color change is one of the largest black led racial justice organizations in the country. We were founded in the aftermath of Hurricane Hurricane Katrina by Van Jones and James Rucker actually right outside of the Bay Area out of someone's living room. We just saw black people shredded on their rooftops and realize that this was a moment that showed the absence of independent black political power as corporations called us looters as the government as government officials padded themselves on the back for a job well done. And then the leaders went out to their friends and family and asked them to join in a new civil rights organization that would try to hold powerful decision makers responsible and accountable to black people. We think about our work every day as coming coming in and giving people small easy things to do that what strict easy strategic things to do that when added together, have the ability, ability to leverage real world change. So that's how we think about our work every single day. We are shown media stories in the media that animate us. We view our job as giving people something strategic to do in that moment before they move on to the next thing that's upset them. I think because that dev tells them to this piece about like what does it mean to actually start a movement right like how is a movement born. And it was really interesting to hear how color change started. My, my husband is from New Orleans so all my involves I have a lot of people now who are in New Orleans. I've heard many stories very, very touching stories of what that experience looked like and what it felt like to feel very much left behind and overlooked and even thought to be, you know, doing something wrong when you were just trying to survive. I'd love to have a sense from you if there's anything that's different in what it is to build a movement in this covert era, or with this recent attention I keep calling it recent attention because it's not recent police brutality. But if you if you could tell us a little bit about if anything's different I'm assuming maybe it's not but like what does this look like for you in this time and what does it mean to keep a movement going or get it started. Well, we're definitely a part of a broad movement ecosystem that has been working for generations and the marathon of a relay race. But, you know, there are definitely like some ways in which, you know, the organization has been been impacted we're now sort of in silos in our own homes. But in a lot of ways, color change. At least the digital work was sort of built for a pandemic like the number of people that were texting Floyd to 55156 like like we like to think that those are folks that maybe went out and protested but also maybe weren't able to because of so many different reasons. This was their way of participating. You know, the biggest impact on our organization is that we do have volunteer teams all across the country, who are really focused on empowering black joy.  And so there, there's had to be a lot of creativity and imagination about what community looks like in this moment.  We've had teams of people who had a drive through and gave away food to folks in their community that needed it. While maintaining, you know, the six feet distancing. We had folks just two days ago. In Houston after George Floyd's funeral opened up a parking lot where they could work folks to come after the funeral where they could do a repass and where they were also registering voters and talking to folks trying to recruit people to their team for future work. And so, you know, I have seen the organizers and activists that I work with come more alive in this moment, like as soon as the pandemic hit, folks locally were like organizing to make sure their kids had internet or iPads or laptops so that they can continue their action. More people are taking action than ever before more than prior to two weeks ago we had 1.7 million folks that had taken action the last eight months and we've had more than 7 million people take action the last three weeks. So it has been, you know, a huge moment of activity despite the public health crisis, the dual public health crises that we face. Thank you for that and I appreciate some of the examples that you've given of how people are showing up if they can can't leave their house. If there are other reasons that they can't do it in the way that some others are in terms of literally being out there with with a sign. This session is the fourth in our covert in the black community session the first one was on the health disparity the second one was on education disparity and I noticed you mentioned kind of internet connections and people getting linked in for online learning. The third one was on economic precarity and on the disparity that lack and brown communities are experiencing in that on that front. This last one is about this idea of voice and power if you will the ability to engage and do something really meaningful. So if you look first your general thoughts about like what that can look like or the power that is inherent invoice. And then after that I was going to ask you to tell me a little bit about whatever you guys are doing related to the census of voting in general. Just a couple examples. Things are moving so fast. One of the reasons I have you been watching what these athletes are doing these athletes and I mean, if you realize a NASCAR flag is not gone. I mean the Confederate flag is not going to NASCAR. There are so many things happening so fast by people willing to say no, you know, it's got to change and then standing or it's just, it's happening every day.  Wow. I mean, he just formed his movement to do something about the not only voting but voter suppression. I mean, that's huge. He's going to organize athletes. Everybody's doing something in their own way using their voice and and making change. I mean, the NFL is completely not on our captain. It's wonderful. He's a hero. Right. You can knit. I mean, there's just stuff. And you can't even predict what's going to happen. But what I like are the very practical things that folks are coming up with to make to make significant change in institutions and in people's personal lives and I see indicators all the time that are going to be things are going to be different. Now, what I want to say is I want to get me. I tell my kids that word with kids right what we're trying to change is a very stubborn animal. This thing has been around for a long, long, long time. It goes back to the time when you know when Napoleon shot the lifts off the pyramid. Okay, so it goes this way long. This is entrenched. And so you got to be prepared to be able to work through disappointment. And you got to be able to be got to be prepared to work through without guarantee. There are no guarantees and you're going to get disappointed.  But I see voices making a difference all the time on a daily basis and we just got to keep it up. That's fantastic. Thank you so much for that. I appreciate it because I think that that's kind of as a crux of what what we're talking about today. I would love for Alicia and Latifah if you have any thoughts about the power of community voice to jump in there as well. Alicia, I think that that's exactly what y'all do. So I want to listen and learn. There's a lot going on a color of shades. Yeah, I mean I think one of the ideas that we talk about a lot is this idea of power.  I mean, how a number of corporations have responded. Millions of people have taken treats, you know, I've seen allies doing Diane's freeways, all sorts of things, but I think the challenge translating that real power. And that's the window. These folks that have been staying in the streets risking their door to keep this conversation going. It is important that we use this window that they've created for us to actually grab power. And so while I have love to see all of these corporations speak up and speak out as I talked to folks that have been doing organizing, much longer than I have. That has felt like one unique aspect of this moment, although folks have seen lots of different moments. But, you know, putting up a graphic as Black Lives Matter one day or making a donation one day does not absolve you from actually doing it in ways in which your corporation breeds inequality breeds disparities. And so I'm actually looking for looking forward to the moment as someone that does a lot of corporate accountability work at color change to pull that list of people that were so outraged and excited to show up for us just after Memorial Day and go back to them and say, Okay, these are the other places that you have power. And these are the other the other ways in which we expect you to sort of change your behavior if you believe, if you agree with the values that you've been espousing the last couple of weeks. Yeah, I love that. I don't have much to add, actually, but I think that in terms of accountability for folks who assume power whether they make the big bucks or not I'm learning as a local elected, I get about $1,200 a month for a life of art service. I think as a police commissioner what Uncle Joe you probably got a couple hundred, but there are people who are really benefiting from the power that they have, and there's $83 a month. So, you know, but when you take on those roles hopefully there were these are roles of service. And so elected leaders have to do the right thing to people are yielding power and asking for a transformation of sorts. And I don't think that there's anybody in any conversation from your most radical to the sort of middle of the world liberal that doesn't see not only an opportunity but a demand for a revisioning of how we keep us safe. We meeting all of us in communities that the old notion of doing things the read just the retraining or just the hiring. And actually, folks are saying, being very very creative, we need a line item every single public safety budget to understand what does it mean to keep us safe. And for those questions to be litigated. That's good for us to be able to be thinking about mental health workers being in schools instead of our police officers or compulsory preschool, like in some of the safest nations in the world, where there's free transportation for young people or that there's a minimum wage that ensures that you have the basic needs met and still that's not enough that's not excellence that sustenance. These conversations are not new ones that are not so thank goodness for the people who have remained in this work for years and years and years that's, you know, on preventive and what we call interventions. Those folks are trying to figure out what safety looks like, creating new opportunities and ideas. And again, fatigue, the opportunity for folks who have a set the power of your index finger to press No, yes, or abstain. It's on you. It's on you too because the people of this country has showed what they need and what they want they want not only a new conversation. They want a new way of doing things. A woman who is dealing with a domestic violence situation wants to be able to pick up her phone and call for help and know that everybody in the house is not going to be laid out. That's not too much to ask, right? It's not too much to ask for Johnny when he has a breakdown in the second grade because he might have buried his father or seen somebody in his family waiting five hours for 30 minutes at a local prison. He's acting up on Tuesday. That he deserves not only a hug, he deserves deep supports when he's in school. He deserves a beautiful lunch and daycare for his mother who's working three jobs. These are not radical ideas. These are the ideas that folks who are deep down in community have been purporting forever and ever and ever, and they're tired of the malaise. And so we yield that power and that voice and we also have to make sure that the leaders who've accepted the challenge to keep people safe or to make decisions to make our communities better that they hear this fire. And they do something about it because, you know, we still live in a democracy. We all should be held to task what appointed people elected folks and folks who are giving out resources. They're least accountable and the people who pay are the people who pay with their lives. They pay with their children's futures. So I can't say more than I think I've said of how thrilled I am and many of us are in this moment, but also how much we how much blood, whether it's from Fratch for side I learned that term for you Dr years back I was like what is that you said it on the radio when brothers are killing brothers. When folks in community are deeply involved in violence and also when that violence comes from the state none of it is acceptable and it keeps us from our liberty. Folks need to hear and understand and together we're going to figure our way out of this. And I appreciate it because I feel like all of you have said something really meaningful as it relates to that voice to power to how we all can show up in this moment. I would love to take this opportunity for those who are tuned in and those who might be watching this recording after the fact to hear from each of you if you have some ideas. What would you want them to do. I'm not suggesting that you're like here's the answer. But let's say you know what you do you have the ears of some CBO leaders you have some philanthropy folks you have public sector people you have business. What, and you have people who are just people in the community who want to do something. What would you ask them to do what's your call to action for them. And I'm going to put it in two different ways. What's your call to action in terms of maybe one policy that you think that they should get behind. And what's your call to action and maybe like a smaller step thing they can do like a real life thing. I'll start with Alicia. And so you're asking around criminal justice specifically or You know what I'll take anything that you feel like is if it's a good policy that you feel like people should get behind maybe has to do with voting or the census or anything else if there's whatever is a policy that you think people need to get behind this. Yeah. I think especially on the criminal justice front. A lot of people are hearing about the defund movement for the first time, although it's been around for a long time, like thing whatever is happening in Minneapolis didn't just happen because of what happened on Memorial Day these have been folks that have been organizing and had a different vision for community safety for a very, very long time. And so, for me, the policies connected to like investing in communities and investing from police departments are incredibly important for us to be considering. We're at a moment where that can be like vilified and redefined in a lot of different ways, but it seems actually like very practical that in the middle of a pandemic. There are a lot of ways that we should be investing in people's education that we should be investing in mental health services that we should be investing in transportation and quality affordable housing. We know that we shouldn't be investing in programs like alive and free, like we know that those investments actually make our community safer they actually reduce crime. And they allow people to realize their full potential and contribute to our country and more meaningful ways. And so, I hope that, and this is going to have to happen at every single county across the country, but I hope that that's the policy that people hold on to and keep fighting for. Thank you. Thank you so much. What about you, Dr. Marshall. It's difficult for me to tell people what to do. Right. Because I mean, I do what I do, because I think this is my passion, and I found my purpose. So it's easy for me to do this time for me to tell me, it's funny, I get a lot of ideas from other people telling me what to do. No one can do your idea better than you. So don't ask me to do your idea. Right. I just did my idea. But because things are emerging every day. I guess why I can't tell somebody what to do now. If you think a law is unfair, then you know, you know, I mean a lot of this is around, you know, police and George Floyd, but as serious at this is what's important to me is Armada Arbery and this whole, you know, citizens arrest thing. I mean, maybe that's not a good law. I still got a problem with standing your ground and Trayvon Martin, maybe that's got a good law. If you ask me, it's not a good law, but there's so many things that you can, that you can jump into this thing. I'm starting an organization, but I can't find that for people. You know, they got to find that for themselves. Now I don't mind having conversations with people. I'm lucky I'm getting emails every day talking about, you know, can I talk to you about things and that's fine. I have a conversation and sort of, they're trying to figure out what to do. It's very, it's hard for me to do that. It really, really is, but there is so much to do. I will say what you can help with is there's obviously going to be a bit of pushback to this, just because there's always been a pushback when black folks deal with inequities that have gone on for centuries, right? There's always a pushback. And you can't be part of that problem, whoever it is, you got to be part of the solution. And I'm engaging with Congress. I'm not letting anybody off the hook.  They can't, they do not want to see me coming. Right? Because they are sanctioning this stuff without even knowing it. And I got to have those hard conversations with them. So I think just keeping, I mean marching is another thing, but keeping these conversations going with people.  You're out there, read a book, learn, read the New Jim Crow. Maybe you'll get some understanding about what's happened for the last 30 years of the black folks. You know, how did the police department get so militarized? That came because of the war on drugs, which is a war on black people. I'm amazed at the ignorance, seriously. That's out there. And I shouldn't be amazed. But, you know, people like, so I think there's nothing wrong with getting you some books, getting read, learning, being burst, understanding that, you know, this is not against anybody. You know, it took a long time for people that Black Lives Matter wasn't against anybody. It's not against anybody.  It just mean mine does, right? So stop tripping. Oh, God, you're getting going, going, going. So there, so yeah, if I was just gonna, and I've been telling people, learn, read, understand, find out what America has really been about, you know. And then talk to people like, you know, like, like, like the folks right here. If you want to help, you'll find a way to help. But I think you got to really got to get an idea of what's going on. It's not against anybody. It's trying to change inequities that have been going on for centuries.  It might have been a big deal to you, but look, you've got to go. You know, maybe some statues got to go. I don't know. But the point is, just learn, learn, keep, keep, keep, keep, keep learning about what's really happening and understand that this has been going on for a long time. And as Sam Cook says, but a long time coming, but a change is going to come. I like that. I would love to hear what thoughts you have with Tifa. And as you are thinking of that, I just wanted to note to the others that I'm going to segue in just a moment or two to the questions that we've gotten from those who are tuned in. So if you also have other thoughts for each other, questions for each other, something you heard someone else say that you want to jump in on, definitely think of that as well. I think I think of two things right now. And I'm sorry for the flurry in the back. I have a nine year old and for all the parents, grandparents, aunties, uncles, friends of people who have children, there is no there's this summer is ridiculous. And again, put on top of all the there's the children are in the house, right. So we're trying to get it together. One the first thing for me I would suggest all for all of us is to move beyond allyship and to think about actually being an accomplice to racial justice and for again the democracy and humanity that this country promises. So that means going beyond, you know, calling your black friend, checking in on them I don't know where if there was an email, I don't know it went everywhere and I'm happy to do it. Everybody was checking on their black friends I got so many calls, but that's, that's good. That's fine. We want to make sure that folks understand that the deep anguish in this moment. But it goes beyond that being accomplished to something different. That's me standing side by side, not just acknowledging that it's a problem side by side, folks who are leading the way and asking good questions. But the second thing is, I was asked this the other day. In a very similar forum of what do I want to tell the people that I love 20 years from now when they're asking mommy or Auntie. What were you doing in the civil rights movement in 2020. And I was like, that's a good question. It was a young person who asked, because we've asked our parents, are you guys marching what what were you doing were you writing letters. This is now. Are you going to be someone to tell those folks in 20 years that you watched a lot of CNN and you tweeted which is fine. What do you want to have a reflection that you were a part of very difficult conversations, and that we were working on our not only our anti blackness, but our anti racism that we were working to be anti racist that we were reading like I said studying, but that we were calling on people in our lives not just selected for the people who will power and control over employment over opportunities to unlearn unlearn so much of what has been structured around them around 50 means around who's good and who's not around who's interesting or talented or smart. These, these elements have pervaded the way that we see and treat the world. So you can have 10s of thousands of black men who all don't die every year, but are dehumanized by law enforcement and we look away, or when there's an inflection moment. We come out and we say no more Trayvons and then you know when it's safe we retreat and we go back to our normal lives to be an accomplice, or to be able to say in 20 years that you stood center and a movement would be to consistently fight fight for the humanization of black people and oppressed people in this country. Right. I would love for us now to just take a moment to go through a few of these questions. I have one that I want to start us off with. And then what I do want to know really quickly though is in the interest of time if you feel like somebody else said it, it's covered you don't have to say something but if you feel moved and you feel like you have something you'd like to share by all means please do. So our first question.   My dream is to create Latifa so yeah. Well done all around. This first question I have is related to the way in which people get behind a specific policy change, such that it doesn't become kind of like a bifurcation where you have you know, one people feel this way about it one people one set of people feel this way about it. I'm not sure if this person meant the two sides of the the actual issue or different people on the same side you think of it differently, and that they're splitting their efforts in that way. But you can feel free to answer it in the way that resonates with you. I took it to mean when let's say that people are behind defunding police. If there are different factions within that movement itself is that a problem in how whatever the messages get said, and how effective it can be. And what do we do about that if that's a problem. The hardest thing I ever did was being on a police commission. Look, I've been in prisons. I've dealt with gang with that's nothing. Then on the police commission making that change was extremely difficult because it's a process. If you aren't willing to go through the process and keep your eyes on the prize and it's not always what you want. Because there's so many. I mean, I had to deal with unions had to deal with this all these organizations have to deal with public screaming Alan at me. It's very difficult to do if you can weather that and get and get probably and I think we got most of what we wanted, because there's certain things we weren't going to compromise on. And we're very happy, but it is tough to do it is really tough to do and you got to have people who are willing and is everything you got to support those people while they're doing it. If you know somebody is if you believe in them if you believe what they're doing is a good thing. You got to support them because they can get discouraged to And just say, you know, I'm not with this, but it is not easy. I guess compromises the right word. I don't think it's that's probably the word that you know even politicians have to you. But we made a lot of really significant policy changes. It was not easy to do but it's because we literally kept our eyes on the prize and we got what we want. But it is something that you just got to be willing to stick here and make it happen. Are there any other kind of additive thoughts. Okay. I'm sort of using the handful of the fund I think really taking the time to make sure that we are able to define what that means before other people define it for us. I think that is a potential pitfall. You know, a lot of these ideas, they sound radical to people but they're like, really, really not radical. We, you know, we see policing and white communities and white suburbs at Coachella and Burning Man all the time. That is not the same policing that black communities and brown communities and working class communities are getting receiving. So I think we have to really be brave and sort of defending and defining what that means for us. And, you know, to push back against anyone that anyone that is attempting to sort of co-opt that invest divest message. It was really powerful. It made me think of one of the principles of Kwanzaa to define for ourselves, name for ourselves instead of having to be named or defined by others. And thank you so much for sharing that. If you guys are okay with it, I am going to go to our next question, which is related to allyship, which now let's see what I'm going to call accomplished. How have you seen white allies or white accomplices show up? And how has that been different if it has been from what you've seen in the past? Is this moment different in how you've seen white allyship? And I will upgrade it to successful allyship, which would be accomplished, being an accomplice. Well, I've seen a couple examples. I'll go quick. I think it's just about it's about being intentional. It's about being intentional. Go, Doc. Well, I've seen a couple of examples. And I'll tell you what I think has been helpful in this. There was a news clip of a protest in Los Angeles, and there was these, I guess they felt they were allies. These two young white women spraying on the building, and the young black women says, don't do that. We didn't ask you to do that. They're going to blame us for that. And then she had the camera. This ain't us. This ain't us. This ain't us. And what struck me that moment is that is that the two white girls like, I don't care what you say, I'm going to do what I want to do, right? Instead of the unwillingness to take direction and understand that, you know, you ain't really helping us. You hurting us. You just doing what you want to do. I don't think that's allyship. The other part I've seen is like having conversations and, you know, being willing. And I'm not saying people, black people have to be in a lead. I'm not saying that. I'm saying listening to.  It may not be the best for, you know, for everything. And I hate to say this, but they have a tendency to do that. I've experienced that. I've had people who I meet that think I can do, they can do better than I do at what I do and they don't even do it. Because it's just an idea that they have in their heads that somehow they can do things better than black folks, right? I've seen that personally. So I think, you know, being willing to listen, listen. The big thing to me is listen, you know, get some understanding about someone and see how you fit in rather than just jumping out there and because that's been a tendency has been a 10. I hate to say this, but it's been a tendency for so long that they just think they can do a lot of things. They can do do it better. They want to bring a business model to your nonprofit. I mean, just slow stuff I've seen like that.   I think that for me, that's been very helpful in moving things forward. I think I would add, you know, in this last few weeks over the last few years, I've seen different types of allies. There are definitely folks and I think I put them more in the accomplice category that Lativa described that have done the work. They've done the anti-racism training. They've read the books. They've been doing challenging conversations. They stood behind black or other POC or women leaders. They've done that and they know what to do in this moment of crisis. They know how to show up and what their place in that. I think there's the other ally I see right now is like the emerging ally. This is like the new person who is just now realizing like, oh, I am super outraged about this. And what I'm seeing in sort of that new ally, there are a lot of questions about like, you know, like new baby, like, what do I do? What do I do? You know, I have this special PR background. How could you use me? Like it's as if they want you to like shape every single ask for their like specific skill set in a moment of crisis. And you know, they're, and what I've been saying to folks is like, there are tons of things you can do. You can sign this petition. You can text Floyd to 5516. You can call the mayor.  You can donate. Like we have set out a number of things that you can do like try to fit yourself into that. And then once this like moment of crisis dissipates a little bit, do the intentional work of figuring out how you can actually support this, this movement in a meaningful way, given your particular set of skills, but we don't have time black organizers don't have time to have a one on one with you right now about, you know, how we can use your data background. So those are all really great points. Thank you so much for sharing them. I have, I think we have time for maybe one or two more questions. One is related to is this, I'm going to just read it out so that I get it quickly. And in which national legislation or even an amendment to the Constitution specifically around the use of force and incarceration gun control and police reform is being pursued as a strategy. Could the 13th amendment be amended to remove the language that has fueled the prison industrial complex. Oh, what if I are you talking at your muted if you're I said I was going to ask Orisha the lawyer to answer that one. Okay, I don't think that we have the power right now to sort of change the Constitution. And I don't know that we'd want to be in that conversation given right now, given who's in power. You know, I will say I think a lot of and this is both the police violence situation but also with relationship to coven a lot of the response has been national and federal, but the recovery will be local. We're in this sort of moment where we're looking for Trump's press conferences every day but like every single thing that we really want is probably most of the things that we really want are sort of controlled by our local government. Now there's a set of things that the federal government can do all the 1994 crime bill that incentivize or disincentivize a certain set of behaviors at the local level but I think it's really important that we understand that that's where our is located in this moment. Great, thank you for that. My brother is a law professor and he and some of his colleagues wrote a piece that I believe is in the Washington Post this today. But he was telling me that it is related to this idea of really stringent statewide regulations or law, if you will, requiring police officers to speak up or act when they see a conduct among their peers. So I think that's kind of an interesting thing. I don't have a law background but I think it's interesting. Like don't they have that duty already? I mean it's about being regulated indeed. Right, their duty is to, you know, they've had this like hero cop narrative for forever they're supposed to help people that are in danger. And I've never heard any rule, formal rule that says that someone cannot stop their co-worker from doing something that is unconstitutional or abusive or harmful. And so I think we have to be careful like it sounds great, but like don't they have a duty to protect already? Like do we need to reiterate that with more specific language? You can write that, you can write that, you can write that into, you support policies called duty to intervene, you can require it and if somebody doesn't do it then they can basically be disciplined. You can do that. You gotta do that because John Lewis said one time when you can't change people's hearts change the law. And that's what black people have been doing for centuries, right? We haven't, you know, I don't know how many hearts are going to change. I hope you want to hope their hearts are changed. But one of the reasons black folks have pursued laws like any law, civil rights law, is because that's the one thing you do have control over. So any law that can help, you know, us not become the victims, you always got to remember what brought you to the table. What brought us to the table are these deaths, right? And other things are going to come into play. But in the end, Trayvon should be alive, you know, Floyd should be alive. Anything, anything that can get to that is what we're looking for. And so when I hear the laundry list, I got to make sure that laundry list has a chance of doing that. When people come up with stuff, they just throw stuff out. And the other thing is that most of this, especially now at this time, we call it the who run thing, which I don't say that person's name. Fear is going to be the thing that's going forward. Everybody's fear. This is going to happen. It's going to change. It won't be any more America. All this, they're going to scare, contract, and scare you to death when all people are saying is that, you know, take your foot off my neck, right? So that's the climate that we're working in. And that's the real hard thing here, because every time I talk to folks, they think like, you know, it's, no, no. But black folks have always worked in that anytime, whether it be the end of slavery, you know, after reconstruction, look what happened after reconstruction and start everything that had been moved forward. So that's why it's good to know history because history tends to repeat itself. Those things are still there. The patterns are still there. And I'm just saying that to say that this is the climate that we're in. And as they're in that climate, you know, you got it. Like I said, without guarantee and when, and you can't get discouraged when things come up and you won't have all the answers all the time right away. So I get a question like that. I don't know. Things will be rebuilt and that's why you got to be in it for the long haul. Evaluate, go back, move forward. Dr. King was real good about that. Continue to evaluate strategy. I want to thank you both for your points you made. We should absolutely spot on that that is your job like as forget that your job as a police officer your job as a human. But I also appreciate your point, Dr. Marshall, in terms of what it looks like to then penalize people for not doing what they're supposed to do to actually put some sort of repercussions for not doing what you're supposed to do. And again, that comes into this larger issue of the power of laws versus the power of a more grassroots organizing approach approach that changes kind of norms and the way people attempts to change how people think. I would like to ask one more question. And then I would like to ask each of you to give kind of your parting parting thoughts. The last question is, how can we continue to uplift the missions and great voices from community organizers? And what is the best way to do this as we slowly reopen our economy? How can social media awareness be sustained? So I'm understanding that says as things start moving, I don't want to say back because I'm hoping they're not moving back but as we start moving forward into a different phase, what does it look like to support organizers and the like as people go back to work as things like that change? Any thoughts on that? I think we're all just trying to figure that out. Right. I'm nervous. I said just yesterday, what if people forget about black people in three weeks? You know, again, for those of us who committed our whole lives to this work, we're hoping that the moral compass stays center and people that humanity is critical and that we can get there through change and we need to get there also through the moral will of a divided nation. So I don't know the answer to that. Fair enough. Any other thoughts on that? Well, I've met a lot of people that didn't know before because of this and that's great. And I plan to keep in touch with them. I'm hoping that at least, you know, I can expand the number of people who are engaged in, you know, I don't call the word in the struggle because to me it's the struggle. That word doesn't change. And, you know, keep them supported and focused because you get tired. You can get tired doing this work. Well, you can get exhausted. I don't get tired. For me, tired is like giving up. That's just my word, you know. But you can get exhausted. I would like more of an intersection. One of the things I remembered about the Civil Rights Movement is there was a real intersection between athletes, entertainers, and I guess I would call us common folk. You know, Malcolm, new Ozzie Davis and Ruby D and Martin. I'd like there to be more of an intersection there. It's funny, I've been doing a radio show for years and even knows this.  Have been athletes and entertainers. And there seems to be this huge gap between them and the people. And so I think, I think, you know, if we can, if all of us who want to do something, you know, can sort of cross paths in some way. You know, we're all, we're all doing it. Not so much. We're all doing what we're good at. But I think it would void in this case this movement, if each of a lot of us knew, you know, each other and able to access each other. I think that, and I haven't figured that out yet. I think that would help because they would feel there's this, this group of people, not just up here, but people down there that they were connected with. And I think that connection. Part of the reason I got into this is people would say, you know, people, you know, a lot of black professionals don't want to deal with these kids and why do you, right? So, you know, they used to tell me, you are cool PhD, right? It was a thing like that. But I think I would like to see that happen. I'm not sure exactly how to do that because they live in these other worlds. But I'm working on that and see if I can make make that happen. I think that's important. Because literally, if you look at those three young, those men, it doesn't matter whether you're, you know, you're making $200 million playing basketball, or whether you're just a boy in the hood, you could be Armand Arbery, you could be Christian Cooper, you could be George Floyd, and if you're one woman, you could be Breonna Taylor. So, get rid of those divisions. I think that's something that's existed for a while that shouldn't. I think that's such an important point. Are we sure, do you want to add in something? We anticipate that the public sort of demonstrations will dissipate at some point. And that's okay. Like, you know, this has been a relatively like traumatic triggering moment for I think so many people. The revolution will certainly be televised. The deal will be made with the cameras off.  Like there were months where I was like, what happened to all the videos? Like they like literally stopped. We were seeing them like every other week and then they like stopped for a minute. But it was in those moments where I think people had a moment to like breathe and really reassess what was happening, that our demands got more specific. We became much more clear about what we wanted. And I think it's made us so much more prepared in this moment to actually push the conversation forward in a way that we weren't ready to or able to or prepared to in 2012 or 2015. What I hope is that, you know, one of the things that I experienced in this moment, not only just as a daughter whose father is recently passed but also as a black woman and understanding that, you know, something could happen to me tomorrow or to my niece tomorrow and the cry is not going to be the same. It's the same for our LGBT family. And so like these things continue to happen whether or not there's a national spotlight.  And I think after things dissipate it's really important that people continue to tell the stories of other people that might not attract the same national attention as the story did. Absolutely. Now, both of you, Dr Marshall and we should have shared kind of some concepts that would be a great like wrapping final words piece that said that does not preclude you from continuing to do another or final word. But I will say, I think this is the time for us to go ahead and do that. Maybe what I'll do is I'll start with you Latifah and then if Dr Marshall or we should want to add anything in. If they are welcome to and if they feel like they've got it, then we'll move from there. You know, I just saw in a notification a minute ago that assembly member Dr Shirley Weber on the floor in Sacramento. I'm super emotional about what I just read. I apologize to black men for not being able to protect them. And I think that's right. You want to protect your people your tribe. And with all that we know, and all that we do, you know, in the United States now. You know, a block from me three houses from me folks are just struggling to survive and we want to be protectors, surely as a protector. And no matter what we do, the reality that the dehumanization of people with black skin is a fact. It tells me that, you know, we can work to the end of time but until we all agree that our humanization in our winning black people winning means everybody wins. Right. So I apologize. I haven't cried in a long time. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, that's why we're here. We're here just for that reason because the pain, the trauma of Lord. The pain, the trauma, everything that we have been through. That's it right there. That's why we do we don't want no more that. And it's not just the last couple of months. It's like history period. That's what people understand. That's why we're doing this.  We don't want, you know, it's that simple. And that's what fuels us. That's what drives us. Don't get it confused, folks. Exactly what you saw there is it. And we ain't doing it for an apology. We're doing it for it to stop. It's as simple as that.  That's why I do it. You know, because I've been saying we're not related, but we're all family and people got who you know, who are watching, listening, whatever you understand what's behind this is not political. And they all those things those bags you might put it into is simply that we want that to stop. And we're not going to stop till it does stop. I'm going to wrap it right there.  Thank you all for this time. This is this has been a tough conversation to have. This is a tough isn't the work but I just thank you for how you've closed us off Latifah and Dr Marshall and Arisha, you all were fantastic. Thanks so much everyone. Thank you.


So we have the second guest lecture today by Professor Steve Manson, and today he will talk about collisions, quantum collisions. Okay, thank you. Today's talk will be a little bit different. Today's class will be a little bit different in the sense that it will be much more quantitative. What I want to talk about today is charged particle collisions, particularly with atoms, although what I say is going to be fairly general and can be applied to molecules as well, but I will aim at the demonstration of what goes on in a simple system. Now, why are we interested in charged particles impinging on atoms? Well, for a number of reasons. First of all, that and photo ionization are probably two of the major processes that go on in the universe. The universe is much bigger than a few miles above the crust of the Earth. Most of the universe has lots of charged particles coming out and interacting with all kinds of things. And so, to understand what goes on, we need to understand charged particle collisions. Furthermore, there's all kinds of applications. Fluorescence lighting, for example, charged particles that ionize and excite and the resulting radiation is what you see. Well, actually, it's a lot of the radiation you don't see, but never mind that. However, unlike photons, charged particles have a very strong interaction with the targets. And that's something that needs to be looked at carefully. So, what I'd like to do is start out with a relatively simple problem. A structuralist charged particle interacting with a hydrogen atom in its ground state. And that's, when I say structuralist, what I mean is a bare nucleus. Because I'm not going to get into that today, supposing you have a collision where the projectile brings in its own electrons, that makes it much more complicated. We're not going to talk about it today. What I want to talk about is complicated enough. And aside from doing the derivation of what the probability, what the cross-section looks like, what I want to focus on is the approximations made and what the implication of the approximations are. Because, you know, it's easy to do the mathematical derivation.  And that's the important thing. One of the things we do as physicists is you take a problem and you say, okay, what methodology shall I use to solve this problem? In other words, what methodology should I use that has the essential physics of the particular problem? That's what you have to worry about. And in order to know what has the essential physics, you have to know A, the essential physics of the problem, and B, the essential physics of the method. I'm not going to talk about the problem now. I'm going to talk about the method right now. All right, let's see, chalk. Scattering, I mean, I am told that you have sort of a background in at least elastic scattering. We know that the wave function, let's say just for potential scattering, the elastic scattering of a particle off some center of force, goes as r goes to infinity. That is, get very far away as e to the ikz plus f of theta and phi e to the ikr over r, where my force is centered at r equals 0. If this is the asymptotic form of the wave function, asymptotic form, gets much messier if r does not go to infinity, then the differential scattering cross-section is equal to, ooh, that's pretty good. So that doesn't sound too hard.  The way you get this is by looking at the probability current density for the incident wave, that's just, you know, a plane wave coming in, and the scattered wave. And it turns out that, you know, the probability current density, you just get from the continuity equation for the Schrodinger equation. It relates the time derivative of psi star psi, or which is the probability per unit value, to the probability current density. Actually, if I call rho as psi star psi, then rho dt plus del dot s is equal to zero. That just says that the total probability of all space remains constant. That's all that that is. But this thing here is the so-called probability current density. Very often students look at that and say, oh, my God, that's so complicated. But it's really quite trivial. If it's a charge particle and you multiply by the charge q, and I put it in here, and I put it in here, then this is just the charge density. That's nothing. And this is the current density. You know that. So these are, so without the q, these are just general concepts that we use in quantum mechanics which represent the same kind of thing except probability. Charge density sounds so easy. And probability density sounds so hard, but it's really not. OK. So you do this, and actually what you get for the, if I call this the incoming wave and the scattered wave, what I get is that s incoming is equal to, well, all I care is the magnitude, is h bar k over m, and s scattered as r goes to infinity. It's actually a very complicated expression, but most of it goes away as r goes to infinity.  And the cross section, the differential cross section, is almost a ratio of these two things, but you have to do one more thing you have because it is, there is in the definition of the cross section, on the bottom it's a number of particles, or particles per unit area, or probability per unit area. On top it's probability, well, with the unit time in there as well. On top it's the same thing, but per unit solid angle, and so you have to get per area per solid angle, that gives you r squared, and that's why everything just cancels out, and you just get the f absolute square. Again, I'm assuming that this is review, I hope it's review, because this is hardly a derivation. I'm just trying to remind you of some things that I hope you already know. Okay, now let's get to our problem. What we want to try to solve is a charged particle striking a hydrogen atom, and what I particularly, you see this is potential scattering, just get elastic scattering, what I particularly want to focus on is inelastic scattering, where it gives some energy to the hydrogen atom, and let's say if the hydrogen atom starts in the ground state, it ends up excited. Okay, well, how do we solve it? Well, first we've got to write down the equation that we want to solve, and that is the Schrodinger equation, which I'm going to write in this form. Remember, now we have two electrons, the electron coming in and the hydrogen atom electron. So, notice I multiplied the Schrodinger equation by a minus sign, because I always like the first term to be positive. I just feel better like that. It's like in mathematics having an eye on the bottom. I never like an eye on the bottom. I always like to get rid of it and put the eye on top. I know it's a quirk. Anyway, 1 squared plus del 2 squared plus e squared over r1 plus e squared over r2 minus e squared over r12 psi, I should make this a capital psi of r1 and r2 equals 0. No, it isn't. I forgot something. It didn't die. I'll squeeze it in here. That's important. Move everything over to this side. This is simply the Schrodinger equation for two electrons. Now, I've got to solve that with the right boundary conditions. We'll come in a moment to what the right boundary conditions are. But now, I'm going to make my first approximation. You know that electrons are identical. So we have no way of knowing if this happens or if this happens. However, if my electron is very fast compared to the velocity of the bound electron, the chances of exchange are very small. So my first approximation is no exchange. And that implies that this will be reasonable as long as the incident electron is going much faster than the, or has much higher energy, is another way of saying it, than the atomic electron. Okay, that's it. You see, saying no exchange or without exchange doesn't carry with it immediately the idea of where that approximation is good.  So, if I am sending in a 3EV electron, or say a 10EV electron, when the hydrogen atom is bound by 13.6EV, this is a crummy approximation. I'd have to put exchange in. Now, putting exchange in is not terribly, terribly difficult, but it just makes the equations much messier, and it's harder to see what's going on. That's why I like to leave it out to begin with. All right, now, it's a partial differential equation. Again, two ways we know of solving partial differential equations. Separation of variables, we don't know how to do this. Guessing, I don't have any good guessing. We have to approximate. Okay, now one of the postulates of quantum mechanics is that you can expand any wave function in any complete set. Right? Unfortunately, complete sets in this case are infinite. So, we take a finite set. However, let me just write it down in principle what we would do. I take psi of r1 and r2. I'm going to write it as a sum. Remember, it's a two-particle, so I'm going to do it in two particles, and I'm going to write it as psi n of r1, actually of r2, I think I did, yeah, fn of r1. Now, since I'm not allowing exchange here, r1 is, I'm going to use the incident particle and r2 for the bound electron. Because without exchange, they become, in principle, distinguishable. Okay, I'm free to pick my set. Since I know that I'm dealing with a hydrogen atom, I'm going to pick these to be the eigenfunctions of the hydrogen atom, those you know. And these, I'm going to leave for the moment. These are the functions representing the continuum electron, the incident and scatter electron. Before I can begin to even approximately solve a partial differential equation, unlike an ordinary differential equation, there's something crucial that I need. Boundary conditions. You remember back to when you took a course in the mathematical methods of physics. You can't even begin to solve a partial differential equation even approximately unless you pick boundary conditions because you get different solutions under different cases. And you see it's easy when it's a bound state. Boundary conditions, everything goes to zero and infinity. Bang, that's no problem. But here, everything does not go to zero. And what does the asymptotic form of this wave function have to look like? Well, this tells me something about that. It's equal to, or it goes to, what? To the ik dot r1 times psi zero of r2. This is a plane wave in the ground state of hydrogen atom. That's what you had at infinity. Plus where, see, what does this represent? From what we talked about here, this represents the hydrogen atom in various states and waves coming out. However, the k is different. In other words, here, k was, or k squared, was 2mE over h bar squared. That's the energy of the incident electron. Here, when the electron has lost some energy, kN squared is equal to 2mE minus En over h bar squared. The excitation energy to a particular state of the hydrogen atom. I mean, so this is just definition so far. But now, let me mention something else. Supposing the hydrogen atom was not in the ground state. Supposing it's in some excited state. And the electron comes in. Could it knock it down? And the electron come out with more energy? Absolutely. That's called a super elastic collision and just falls automatically out of this formalism. However, in this case, it's just a little bit easier to think of it in the hydrogen, in the ground state, but it could be in any state. And you could add or subtract energy. And this actually happens not that much. The reason is that usually excited states decay fairly quickly. So in order to see this kind of thing, you have to have a really, really high density of charged particles or everything will decay. Or you have to have a metastable state. That'll work. OK, so you need boundary conditions like this. So that tells me what the FNs are. In other words, F0 has this in it, plus psi n, psi 0, e to the i. But all the others just have this. And since I want to focus on inelastic collisions, Fn goes as r goes to infinity, e to the i, kn r1 over r1, psi n of r2. And now I have a boundary condition or boundary conditions. Oh, by the way, there's one more thing that I want to mention. Let's assume that I can solve this. A really bad assumption, but let's assume that I can. Then from what we did before, d sigma n, d omega, be equal to what? Would it be, I'm sorry, I forgot something here. Would it be, and I forgot it here too. That's important. I mean, so it looks like the elastic scattering case. Is it just the Fn squared? No, why not? Because remember when I wrote down what the probability current density was, it had this h bar k. Here I have the h bar kn in the ratio. I still have the h bar k for the incident wave. So what you get is kn over k Fn absolute squared. Now I've got to bite the bullet and actually calculate this Fn, which is not easy. Let's say, how am I going to do it? Well, let me take this form, plug it in here. You see the reason I do it this way, I pick this fixed and this I haven't fixed. Because I know first of all asymptotically what the wave function is going to be, and asymptotically I'm going to have these by themselves here. And this also, why don't I just take something like plane waves or because I can't take an infinite set, because I know that I'm not going to be able to do an infinite set. So I want to determine these to get the best I can with a finite set. And so let me get the equations now that govern Fn. So what I do, I simply take this and plug it in here. So far there were no approximations except for the exchange business. All right? I'm going to plug in. But before I do that I want to note something. I want to note that I know what equation that is a solution to. It's hydrogen. So h bar squared over 2m del 2 squared plus En minus E squared over R2. Right? I mean, that's just a rendering of the Schrodinger equation for the hydrogen atom. OK? Now, here's what I'm going to do. I am going to plug this into here and then multiply by R2 star and integrate. It means the same thing.  It means exactly the same thing. Let's see what happens then. What I'm going to get is sigma over En psi n star of R2. Make sure I've done this right. Well, no. I'm just now plugging that in and multiplying times h bar squared over 2m del 1 squared E minus En. By the way, I've made a mistake here. That's a plus sign, isn't it? Plus E squared over R12. Yeah, because if I multiply everything by minus 1, that gets multiplied also. fn of R1 is equal to what's on the other side. Well, let me write what's on the other side this way. I'm moving some stuff to the other side. It's E squared over R12 minus E squared over R1. See, all I have done here is I've taken part of this and plugged in here, and that's how I got this and this together on this to give me the En. That's the way I got the En here. That's R12, and that is R1. No, that's gone. That's what it looks like. I'm sorry. The R2 is gone from here, and here's everything else you see. Okay, to get rid of this now, I'd have to be multiplied by the star here. Okay, now I multiply by psi n star and I integrate this just gives me 1, and I get what? I get h bar squared over 2m del 1 squared plus E minus En over R1 is equal to the integral of, I multiply one side by psi n star. I got to multiply the other side, psi n of R2 E squared over R12 minus E squared over R1 psi of R1 and R2 dr2. Move it here so you can actually see. And what this is, it's basically just a transformation of this equation that I'm erasing. Now, multiplying through by 2m over h bar squared, then this becomes what I call Kn squared. What I get is then del 1 squared plus Kn squared equals 2m over h bar squared integral E squared over R12 minus E squared over R1 psi n star of R2. Now again, this is simply a transformation of the Schrodinger equation. Nothing else. It leaves something to be desired if you actually want to solve it from the following point of view. First of all, there's an infinite number of these terms. That already is a downer. Secondly, in order to solve the equation, you need to know the right-hand side and the right-hand side has what's unknown to begin with. So what I have is exact, but in this form it's not very helpful yet. So what can I do? Well, what I can do is say, all right, let me take some zeroth order approximation here. Now we've got a first order approximation. We can go back and I can do an iteration and I can do this approximation at various levels. For example, remember the expansion for this, which I just erased. Well, I can pick instead of an infinite number of terms, a finite number of terms. That will help a lot. You know, so if I take capital psi as sigma n equals 0 to some capital N, infinity of psi n of r2 fn of r1, then if I plug this in here, I will have on this side the fn's. Here are the fn's and you can actually, in principle, solve this. It's messy, but it's solvable. When I take those terms, a bunch of terms there, that is known as a close-coupling expansion. You can't solve this analytically, but you can do it numerically. You've got to do it by iteration. But it is solvable. By doing this, by taking a finite number of terms, you're saying that the higher part for your purposes is unimportant. And one has to consider under what conditions the higher part will be unimportant or at least not affect the part that you're looking at. It could even take something more. Supposing, in lowest order, what will happen? The electron will miss. So if there were no interactions at all, what would psi be? Psi would just be e to the ik dot r 1 psi 0 of r2. Ooh! That looks like something I just might be able to deal with. So my philosophy is this. I'm going to start with this as my 0th order wave function. I'm going to plug that in here, and I'm going to get df n's out. Then I can get a new psi, the next order, plug that in. This, in a general sense, is known as the Born approximation. It's not the usual way of deriving it. But I like this way because you can see exactly the approximations that are being made. So you are not approximating no scattering. That's my 0th order approximation, and I'm going off. And in principle, if I carry this out to infinite order, it'll be exact. I won't carry it out to infinite order though. So, I take this and plug it in. Now, again, let us think about this. Under what conditions is this a reasonable approximation? That's very important to think about. Well, I'm guessing because I know something about how physics works. The longer time the incident electron spends around the hydrogen atom, the more likely it is to do something. And I'm starting off with the 0th approximation that it does nothing. So how do you get it to spend less time? Have a fast collision. No, a high energy collision. So this, to just think about the physics of the situation, is a high energy phenomenon. A high energy approximation. This should be good at high energy. All right. It's still non-trivial to do. My equation becomes what? Del squared plus kn fn of r1 is equal to, that's h bar squared 2m over h bar squared the integral e squared over r12 e squared over r1 e to the i k dot r1 I'm plugging this into that phi n star of r2 0 of r2 Is that everything? Make sure, yeah. d r2. Now I'm not going to make another approximation yet, but I'm going to restrict myself. Consider specifically inelastic collisions. What do inelastic collisions mean? In this case, n is not equal to 0. Because if n equals 0, then it stays in the ground state, and that's okay, this is important. Because look at this integral over r2. With this term here, we have if I forget about this term, all I have, these are the only two things I've depended on r2. When I integrate over r2, that gives 0. Because the wave functions for different states of the hydrogen atom are orthogonal. So, but n not equal to 0, I can forget about that term. All right? So then, l squared is kn squared of r1 is equal to 2m h bar squared the integral of e to the i well, I'm going to pull out the e squared as well. e to the i k dot r1 I'm going to make sure I'm not making any mistakes. Yeah. Over r12 psi n star of r2 psi 0 of r2 dr2. Believe it or not, we can actually solve this equation. You use what is called the Green's function of this. I don't have time to go into deriving the Green's function, but the actual solution then fn of r1 is equal to 2 e squared over h bar squared the integral e to the i kn uh or let me write this as r, I get too many r dot r1 to make sure I'm getting this right psi n star of r2 psi 0 r2 dr2 dr1 and this is the exact solution of that. You see, I have this Green's function integrate over it and then just everything else here. Fortunately, I know something about how this works and I can take the asymptotic form of it because for large enough r r is greater than r this just becomes r and this becomes a little bit more complicated but when we put it all together what I get is fn of r is equal to 2 psi n I'm sorry but for large r why don't I just actually solve for fn why do I want it for large r because remember it's for large r that it has the form fn times e to the iknr over r and all I'm looking for is that little f I mean I could do a lot more but it's much harder so this is just the asymptotic form for large r which I take for large r here as I go along I lose things like dh1 which happens when you get old the double integral of e to the ik k minus kn dot r over no I'm sorry not over anything actually it's a minus sign here let me rewrite this a little bit because I didn't give myself enough room it's actually the Green's function has a minus sign there too actually and there's something there's something funny yes there is something very funny I lost that too okay r12 psi n star of r2 psi 0 of r2 r1 dr2 times to the ikr we're going this way particularly because then this is my scattering amplitude the fn and if I can calculate that I can calculate the cross-section ooh and I only have 5 minutes to do it what I do is I change I make a change of variables I change the variable well first of all I define capital K that's generally called a momentum transfer although it's actually h bar capital K which is the momentum transfer because h bar K is the momentum of the incident particle h bar K n is the momentum of the scattered particles so that's the difference that just makes things a little bit easier and then I change variables for r1 I change it to r12 it's a simple change the Jacobian of the transformation is 1 I would have done it but I don't have time to at the moment but if I but in any case just looking at this then the differential scattering cross-section is what? it's K n over K times this absolute square which is 4 pi squared m squared e to the fourth over h bar to the fourth double integral K p dot r psi zero of r2 psi n star of r2 dr1 dr2 squared now what I was saying here is that let me just look at a piece of this the integral of one sorry that's I've lost something somewhere yes I have that's r1 I'm integrating over that so 1 over r12 e to the i K dot r1 psi zero of r2 psi n star of r2 dr1 I can make that that substitution here and I simply get here I get 4 pi over K squared e to the i actually minus iK dot r2 and psi zero of r2 psi n star of r2 um yeah I'm sorry this so that my square of my matrix element absolute square or just the absolute value of the matrix element then is 4 pi over K squared the integral of now we're going to write it in a particular way now psi n star of r2 e to the minus i dot r2 psi zero dr2 so look at what that means I have reduced this whole mess to a matrix element between the ground state of the hydrogen atom and the excited state of e to the minus K dot r2 if you look this up you will sometimes see it as e to the plus e to the iK dot r2 but it doesn't really matter because you're taking the absolute square so you can do it either way in other words then if I um if I call this epsilon n zero of K the momentum transfer what I'm going to get is the sigma the omega is equal to a whole bunch of constants for pi the K n's epsilon n zero I'm going overtime but I won't go overtime much I promise there are various properties associated with but the crucial thing here is that the cross section depends only well not only it depends on the incident energy because you have this K n over K here but aside from that it depends only on this momentum transfer this is a characteristic of the Born approximation only on the momentum transfer so you have taken a very messy problem and said okay I take this plane wave I take the matrix element this integral now supposing you have something more complicated than a hydrogen atom well whatever the wave functions are this by the way this matrix element is very easy to take what you do is you expand this in a series just like the series that you expanded in for a plane wave of scattering and since these things have spherical harmonics associated with it you only get a few terms and this is a very quick and dirty view of how you do charge particle scattering now all this work is just for doing it in the Born approximation although what we really did is called the first Born approximation because what you can actually do is you actually get you can solve this you can do this integral numerically if you have to and you can iterate and get the second Born approximation etc it's very messy but it's perfectly doable and in the Born approximation the first Born approximation which is applicable again for high energy collisions you can get very very good answers when I say very good answers it agrees rather nicely with experiment in many many cases and I guess since I've gone over time I should stop here