tired of the everyday grind, ever dream of a life of romantic adventure, want to get away from it all. We offer you escape. Escape, designed to free you from the four walls of today for a half hour of high adventure. You are adrift in a native canoe somewhere off the Solomon Islands. Ahead of you by the unknown terrors of native savagery. And closing in on you is a white man whose gunboat will smash you to the bottom of the sea. Listen now where the escape brings you John Russell's story, the price of the head. The possessions of Mr. Christopher Pellet were these. A bad name in the islands, a suit of ducks in which he lived and slept, a continuous thirst for liquor, and a set of fine red whiskers. And strangely enough he had a friend, Karaki. Now no man can gain friendship except by virtue of some decent quality attaching to him and Pellet had none. How then explain the loving devotion lavished upon that drunken root by the gentle native. This was the mystery at Fufuti. But mystery or no, Pellet himself became unendurable to the decent, peaceable folk of the town.  So help me, I'd put a bullet in your drunken brains. Get out. All right, I'm going. I'm going.  Hey, Mummery. You missed the fun, Mummery. Mummery, Mummery.    Karaki! Where is that boy? One day Mr. Howe may be obliged to shoot you. May he shoot me? That'd be murder. Murder's fine talk for company agent, Mr. Mummery. Where is that boy? Karaki! Come here, Karaki. Karaki, come quick. Here, shot. You all right? No hit, Pellet, anywhere? No, I'm fine, Karaki. Fine. Go fetch one bottle of rum. You come along home, huh? May you go along, Mr. Howe. Pay for trouble. Catch him, bottle. Wait here. May you not be much long. You wait. Fine fellow that Karaki ate, Mummery. Only friend I got in this filthy island. May I suggest, Mr. Pellet, that perhaps if you behave somewhat... Suggest nothing. I got a headache. You tell Karaki I've gone to the beach, huh? In the silver aisles I live to win. She'll pay for this mess, but next time he blows off I'll put a bullet in his leg. No, no, Mr. Howe. No shooting. Karaki all the time. Pay good. Well, Mr. Mummery, beat it, Karaki. I'd like a chat with you, Mr. Howe. The right way, sir.  Yes, sir, Mr. Howe. Come into the office, Mr. Mummery. We're more cozy there. That Pellet ought to be in jail. The man's a mad beast. He is, and particularly so on your rum, Mr. Howe. Oh, come now, Mr. Mummery. You can't lay Pellet's sins on my doorstep. Nothing I can do as long as he pays his bills. Well, I'm a fair man, Mr. Howe, and I won't order you to stop selling Pellet your rum if there's any other way to handle the matter. Well, to be honest with you, sir, I do make a small profit on Karaki's pearls, what he pays me with. Though nothing enormous minds you. Still I do without it, not to have Pellet about. When I walk down the street, I have a feeling the natives are laughing at me, just because I'm a white man, too. If I haven't, it's true. And something must be done at once. Mr. Howe, I'll try talking to him like a gentleman. But I'll be firm with him. Now, if you'll send my Jack with a message that I'd like to have him for tea tomorrow. Tea? If you don't mind my saying so, Mr. Mummery, tea isn't... All right, then. I'll tell him there'll be whiskey. That'll do it, sir, and good luck with him. Thank you, Mr. Howe. Tagara whiskey for Mr. Pellet, girl. It's been years since my throat's been wet by good Scotch whiskey, Mummery. Yes, I'm sure. And you live well here. Fine house, good liquor, servants. I work hard, Mr. Pellet, and I stay sober. You should have been a preacher, Mummery. You missed your line in Cobra. No, if you please, Mr. Pellet, we are not discussing my career. No, well, go on, Mummery. As long as I'm drinking your whiskey, I'll listen to your chatter, girl. You make it difficult, Mr. Pellet. I mean to. Yes, I suppose you do. I didn't expect you to invited me here out of friendliness, Mummery. But you could have friends, Mr. Pellet, if you lived decent. I live the way I want, and I've got a friend. Ah, a savage. That's odd. Never thought a Karaki is a savage. I suppose he is. Yes, civilization lies lightly on these people, Mr. Pellet. At heart, Karaki is nothing but a heathen from Bougainville. Bougainville. Yeah, you know, Karaki likes it there. So I was talking about it. Well, you must probably talk about your home. Well, there is a vast difference, I'm sure. Well, he's quite a serious little man. He just haven't got to know him, that's all. Well, we'd scarcely find much in common, I fear. Good heavens, Mr. Pellet. Surely you haven't sunk so low as to have forgotten everything we stand for out here? I have no use for any man, except Karaki. He's the only friend I ever have. But how do you know what is going on in that head of his? How can you tell? I don't have to. So far, he's treated me right, that's enough. But you have no respect for the position the rest of us here must maintain. You would disgrace us in the eyes of every native on this island. I'm impressed. Didn't know it was that important to figure, memory. Tagara, whatever your name is. You're beyond reasoning with, Mr. Pellet. You can go on trying, memory, as long as the whiskey holds out. Have you no pride, man? I cleaned out a bar in Sydney once, alone, against nine sailors. No, that's not exactly it. I engineered a mutiny about an Arab dow in the Gulf of Olman some years back. I sold a cargo at Bahrain for pretty figure, memory, pretty figure. Well, that's certainly compounding a crime. No, that cargo was illegal in the first place, memory. Slaves it was. Little boys and girls from India. Mr. Pellet, I must ask you once and for all. The bottle's almost finished, memory. What do you want? Will you take a job if I offer you one? A job. Memory, I stopped working nine years ago. I'm against working. All right. Then I must ask you to leave this island on the next boat. I like it here, memory, and I'm staying here. Well, I can't make you go, I suppose. You suppose right. But I do have certain powers. The company controls the sale of liquor here, Mr. Pellet. And if I order that none be given you. You'd do that? I would. Unless I take a job or leave, huh? Exactly. Well, I'm not working and I'm not leaving, memory. Then you won't be boozing either, Mr. Pellet. Give me the rest of that bottle, Joe. I've earned it. Good day, Mr. Pellet. That night, the order went out to serve Pellet no more rum. However, the alcohol he had taken on at the agent's house saw him through until noon the next day. He awoke then with a terrible thirst, and by evening he was raging. You cannot cut off alcohol from a man who has been continuously drunk for nine years without results more or less violent. Karaki, with the patience of a saint or the brunt of it all. Karaki, the little evil from Bougainville. A place where some people were smoked and others eaten. It took two days of awful torture to break Pellet's spirit. And on the morning of the third, the man was shattered. Feel much better today, no? No, Karaki. It's worse. Karaki, pull him buss from ocean last night. You want him to fight big fella shark? Drink blood, you say.  Clean out of my head. Two, three weeks. You'll be fine once more, my word. I can't wait two, three weeks. I gotta have a drink, Karaki.  Wait a few days. All fine. You don't understand, Karaki. I can't make it. Go tell Mummy I can't make it. Tell him I'll leave in the next ship. No, no. No, no, can't leave. We plenty much all the time. Good friend, Karaki and Pellet. No, I know, but I'm no good dead, Karaki. You go tell him now. No, no, can't leave. Wait. You tell him or I'll tell him, Karaki.  Not now. Sleep for long, long, couple hour. Then go maybe. No, now. You know I gotta go myself. No, no. Please, please. Karaki, let go of me. Go out. Smash her. I'll have my rum and no man will stop me. No, can't leave. Not now. Not now. Come in, man. Come in. One minute, one minute. I need a drink. No, Mr. Pellet, not a drop here or anywhere else in Pufushin. Give me a drink, man. I'll get on your blasted ship. Oh. Well, then you agree to leave. Yeah, yeah. And on the next ship. Yes, on the next ship. You can have your rum. Yeah. But you'll be on that ship when she sails. I'll be on it. Give me a drink, man, quick. So you can get a drink at Mr. House. I'll send a message to him. Mom, he was all I could do to get this far. I need a drink now. You're all right, Mr. Pellet. But just one. I will not have you disgracing me and my own house. Yeah? Take it. One more. No. Give me that bar. Oh, no, Mom, if you come to Michael House with me, I'll buy you a drink. No, thank you, Mr. Pellet. I'd rather not be seen in your company. Write a note to how I'll tell him to sell me rum. I'll take it with me. Do you have to get drunk now, Mr. Pellet? Now.  Now. All right, Mr. Pellet. But it will be a happy day for all of us when you're aboard that ship. I'll find me another island, Momary. Maybe you'll be transferred there one day. God forbid. I'll write you your note. And I want to see no more of you till the day you leave. That's good enough for me. You're dull company, Momary. At least I'm a gentleman, Mr. Pellet. But I have enough respect for myself not to become a walking insult to me and my race. The note, Momary. The note. You can come to House and preach to me. I don't mind it there. Hurry, man. Hurry. Hurry. You are listening to The Price of the Head, tonight's presentation of Escape. Sometimes it's fun to escape with an adventure story as you're doing now. At other times, it's fun to relax with music. Tomorrow on CBS Radio, you can enjoy the second in our series of Helsinki's Festivals. The program will open with the Sibelius Symphony No. 5, a knee-flat major, and continue with four more of his most impressive works. Enjoy easy listening on world music festivals tomorrow over most of these stations. And now back to Escape and the second act of The Price of the Head. In the days that followed, Pellet became a sodden lump of flesh preserved in alcohol. He did not smile, nor dance, nor exhibit any of the amiable eccentricities that sometimes recommend the drunken to a certain toleration. He was a brute, and he behaved like a brute. But all the time, waiting for the day the ship would arrive, karaoke remained true and showered more devotion than ever upon his friend. He spent his evenings outside Michael Hull's bar, patiently waiting for Pellet to get drunk enough to take along home. Night after night, karaoke waited, while the white man stood roaring inside. Boy, Jack, bring me another bottle. Please, Mr. Pellet, close up now.  And don't tell me when to drink. Look at that bottle. Jump. All right, Mr. Pellet. All right. I get bottle. I fix your bottle. And hurry it up, you bald clown. Who told you to open it? Next time I'll open the bottle, but you want a broken head, boy, Jack. Where's Howe? Mr. Howe going home. Where's the good rum, yes, Mr. Pellet? It stinks. So do you.  You don't like rum? Here's what I think of your rum.   Karaki, Karaki, take him along home now, Karaki.  There he eased Pellet to a mat, bathed him with cool water, and carefully brushed the dirt from his bright red hair and whiskers. Then he sat by with a fan and kept the mosquitoes from the drunkard's bloated face. He sat there all night while Pellet slept. It was midday before Pellet awoke and ground his way out of a painful fog of alcohol. Rum, Karaki, rum. Coconut, more better. Here. Drink milk. Feel fine soon. You'll find sooner I've had some rum, Karaki. Haven't you got a bottle around here, son? No rum.  Too much, boy, Jack rum. What do you mean, too much, boy, Jack rum? Boy, Jack put white powder in the bottle. Make me sleep. White powder? So that's it.  Boy, Jack, him all the time, laugh. I'll tear his throat out. Be careful. Boy, Jack, him all the time, curry knife.  Little wax man. I'll murder him. Come on, Karaki. You watch out for knife. Boy, Jack, him playing fast. I'll kill him. Watch him, fella, close. Pellet, no, get face cut. I'll handle him, Karaki. Don't you worry. Half in anger and half in anticipation of the pleasure of beating a man, Pellet staggered down the beach towards Howe's Bar. It was the noon hour of repose, and all for food to eat was asleep. Pellet reached the bar and found Boy Jack dozing peacefully among the bottles. He woke him with a savage kick.  Get up so I can bust holes in you. That's me, Mr. Pellet. Let go. See me, I'm the king, will you? Not again, you wretch. I cut you. Cut you, Mr. Pellet. Well, you know, well, I'll just fix me a knife, too.  I'm gonna twist this bottle around in your face. Get a fight with a red-headed man. I don't learn. I killed him. I killed him, like I said, Karaki. Yes. Dead. Plenty trouble now. Police? Yeah.  Where we go, Karaki? I gotta hide somewhere. You go along Howe's on beach. Wait there. Me fixin' boat. Leave for footy quick. But what boat? You got no boat. Me findin' boat. Me hide. Tell a friend, Pellet. All right. I trust you, but hurry, man. Hurry. Pellet waited in terror in the shack on the beach while Karaki broke into the boat sheds and with an axe smashed the bottoms out of the three-craft shelter there. Then he opened the trade room and quickly gathered together a bundle of supplies including a rifle and a box of cartridges. Next he carried everything out onto the beach and loaded it into a stout outrigger canoe that belonged to Mr. Mummeray. Finally he fetched Pellet from the shack and together they hurriedly launched the canoe in the lagoon. Karaki rigged the big map sail and then paddled out into the breeze just beyond the harbour entrance. We made it, Karaki. We're safe. Yes. Hey, look. Where are we headed for anyway? What island we go, Karaki? Who got here? Who got here? You crazy? That's 800 miles from here. All the same. We go along my home. 800 miles? We go. All fine. Always one will bring you along my home. All right, Karaki. I don't know why you're doing it for me, but I'll see you through. It was not the beginning of a very pleasant voyage for Mr. Christopher Pellet. The fear of being captured and hanged was great enough, but added to it were the horrors brought on once more by the lack of alcohol. The first night he was too seasick to care, but my morning he was raving. Rom, give me Rom, you blasted heathen. No, got him, Rom.  Need some water. No need, Rom. Got plenty water. Of course, you're correct. You don't drink water. Better you drink water. Well, I won't. Turn back. I'll take hang of this.  Soon catch a warm big fellow wind blow straight to Bougainville. No. How could you find Bougainville anyway? No. We're going back, I tell you. Karaki easily tied the weakened white man hand and foot and continued to sail off into the open sea.  Karaki was an excellent nurse. He even combed Pellet's red hair and whiskers twice every day. By the time they reached the Santa Cruz region, Pellet's condition had improved and Karaki released him. They were now in an area peppered with tiny eyelids and Karaki decided to land on the lee of one in order to replenish their water supply. He had dropped sail and was paddling slowly into the beach when suddenly, from out of nowhere, a cutter carrying two white men appeared behind them.  Put that gun down, Karaki. We're in enough trouble now. Okay. I shot. For some foolish reason the two white men did not believe a native would dare resist them and for their mistake they were both killed. Karaki however wasted no time sailing back into the open sea without his precious water and 29 days later he was doling out the fuel remaining drops to Pellet, taking none for himself. His every gesture was one of sacrifice that his white companion might survive. Finally, on the 36th day, they swiped, sighted Choiseul and by noon they came ashore. There they stayed for a week, fattening themselves on the unlimited supply of coconut. So you think Bougainville is just under the horizon, eh Karaki? Yes. Mighty good thing too. You know, this is the limit of British authority, my boy. Big fellow British master, stop him here. No can go that side, eh? Yes. No can punish Karaki for anything he do, Bougainville's side. My word. No catch Pellet. Never. What makes you so sure of that? Ah, me savvy. Well, all right, old chap, you got me this far. I trust you. You know you're quite a fellow Karaki. Yes. Sure don't talk much, though. My heaven made me memory was right. I'd sure like to know what goes on under that top nut of yours, my boy.  Listen, Karaki, eh, me one big fellow friend, long you, savvy. You one big fellow friend, long me, savvy. Me two big fellow friend always. What? Yes, my word.  And thus did Christopher Pellet express his gratitude to the quiet savage who had with rarest self-sacrifice saved his life again and again. And now that he was thoroughly sober, he could understand it no more than mummer ahead, back in Fufuti. Two days later, under a beautiful dawn, they sailed into Bougainville into a bay that was crystal blue and right up onto a dazzling white beach. Pellet was the first to shore and he ran up to a rocky point to see all the charm of the place for himself. Karaki, in his simple and efficient way, proceeded about his own affairs. He landed what was left of the supplies stolen at Fufuti. A few minutes after, Pellet heard a gentle footstep behind him and turned to find Karaki standing there with the rifle at his hip and the axe in his hand. Me like. Me like too. Great place you've got here, Karaki. Me like them head. Huh? Oh, me like them you too, Karaki. We big fella friend, right? Me like them too much, one fella had belong along you. What do you mean? I don't understand. Red here, fine red whiskers. Big prize here. Smoke them head, make them Karaki big man on island.  Fine head. Very fine head. Cut them off now. That was the way of it. That was all the mystery.  But that of Mr. Christopher Pellet with his precious red whiskers was a thing to be desired above the love of women. And the simple patient enduring Karaki had served hard to win it. And did it really matter to Pellet how or why he died? Since his own race would have hanged him for murder anyway. Escape, produced and directed by David Friedkin and Morten Frein, has brought you The Price of the Head, a story by John Russell and adapted for radio by John Meston. Featured in the cast were Mary Jane Croft, Hans Conreed, Ben Wright and Jack Krushen. Also heard were Clayton Post and Herb Butterfield. Your announcer George Walsh. The special music for Escape is composed and conducted by Leith Stevens. Next week. There's a fortune in the cabin of an airplane crashed on an island somewhere in the Caribbean. And only you know where it is. By your side, sailing the treacherous channels, a smiling killer with a knife from whom there is no escape. So listen next week when Escape brings you E. Jack Newman's story, The Coward. His music on Melody Ranch tomorrow on CBS radio, when the popular galloping cowboy with the golden voice returns. He's Gene Autry, as singing a saddle man has ever rode the range. Meet Gene Autry at the old corral when he returns to Melody Ranch tomorrow on most of these same stations. State you now for Night Watch, which follows immediately over most of these same stations. Where there's gun smoke, there's Western Adventure Monday nights on the CBS radio network.


All right. Hey, what's up everybody? My name is John Hammond and welcome back to another video Where I just kind of talked to myself I mean I talked to myself in every video, but this one is like at least these past couple are especially just oh I talk And I feel like I got a name the series or like a series or something like I talk who's something literally I just say words so Thanks for checking in on this video The footage that I have that I'm showing right now is a little bit of easy CTF Which is a high school middle school competition or capture the flag competition that was put on earlier this year I don't know if I don't honestly don't remember if it was March or April. I'm probably March I don't even remember March March or February. I'm sorry not April this month. It's April So I actually wanted to talk about this topic and Easy CTF was actually kind of a springboard to it too as well as that intelligence class that I told you about earlier In another video that I'm that I take it's an intelligence and cyber operations class and now they're in the cyber security Aspect or the like that module the the third part of the portion of the class We talk a little bit more of like cyber operations and that Computer tech hacky stuff. So one of the conversations that we've had and we're looking at the current events and trying to see what's Going on the real world and obviously there's a lot of Stuff floating around regarding, you know, Facebook Mark Zuckerberg putting his testimony before Congress and and all of that social media and just in general and the information that we like people as a society as a culture put on the internet like released to the public and What is okay to collect what is not okay to collect as as an application as a company as a service? etc but I Guess pulling it down to you If people sign an agreement the agreement is not really what I want to discuss or but I've just why is it that people do that like When I was in the easy CTF the discord channel I was hanging out before the competition started and the game was on and I normally just log in With my username being my name like I say on YouTube. Oh, hey, I'm John Hammond and I don't know some individual that was in the chat or like other people were saying like What are you doing dude like with the self-docs bro? Why are you using your full name? Are you a login with your like dude the self-docs and I just kept saying like self-docs your Docs Docs Docs and To be completely honest, I admit I like what I didn't know that term so I googled it and it's like self-docs when you You yourself like put your information out on the internet and Like oh, I mean, yeah, I totally do that at least I sure my name for sure and Facebook People do that right like people have a Facebook account and they want to like share and talk about them So they want to express themselves and showcase who they are and sometimes that may even be like I Don't know not meaning to I know just when I was a kid growing up like stupid people would be like Oh, hey, I've got chemistry like third period This is the classroom that I'm in this is the teacher that I've got to any of you like my friends Any of my friends have the same period and they'll literally like literally share their class schedule where and when they're going to be you know at a specific place at a specific time and Yeah, maybe you probably shouldn't put that on the internet Obviously there are pictures of yourself that you want to share you want to showcase But me being like a military member Do I want to put pictures of me in uniform out on the internet and I'll admit? Yeah, sure. I have there are stuff out there because you would like to showcase man. You're proud. I'm proud of That stuff like being in the service But sure.   Please. Thanks But I'm just trying to say like that's I feel like that's natural That's human and especially for me when they told me about the self-talks and they just said like dude What are you doing and I proudly like Claim on YouTube and across the internet like oh, no, I'm John Hammond. That's me. That's who I am and I do that I think because I'm like proud of my work or My my product, you know what my projects and the things that I put on the internet for people to see like to showcase what I've done I think that's important even as like I don't want to say a business standpoint But for like a networking professional development thing like sure linked in Not the social media site that Facebook is but it's still like hey trying to showcase yourself and what work that you do I look at sans Honestly, I look at like Jeff Mcjunkin and Josh Wright and Ed scotis and all these super cool guys Shout out to you dude. Ed scotis.  You're not you're not hiding behind some anonymous Identity or alias handle or or hacker name. Yeah, it's cool to have some of that stuff I logged in to easy CTF as part of a reference to the ready player one novel in the movie Which is a whole other story. We can talk about another time And I've used YouTube as like root of the null I've had Handles or nicknames that it would be cool to just kind of have a bunch of scoreboard It's like a lead hacker name stuff like that but I still showcase and Still have a significant amount of value that I place and just saying like no, I'm John Hammond I'm John. I'm happy to share that that name and Again the whole conversation was writing off of The notions and discussion that we were having about putting a privacy and putting your public information out on the internet and this was kind of on the tails of I don't know if you saw the News articles and the press that was released on The Facebook Android application This was late March. I think March 20th March 21st around that time period But Dylan McKay, I think is his name I'll try and post a link or some of the Twitter notes and the tweets that we had found or were uncovered through all this Where he just showcases like this is everything that I found that the Facebook app is just keeping track of me on my cell phone between SMS messages call history phone duration who I'm calling and when my whole contacts etc etc But Ensure that was probably what spurred more and more of the oh Facebook's in the spotlight social media is in the spotlight of What is it okay to capture what's okay to not capture? but people willingly do it and I don't think that From a business or a corporation or a company I don't think they will they are or have any intentions to like sell people's information or like put stuff on the black market I don't know. I probably have a little bit more of an optimistic and Hopeful perspective on the world and on people which might be the death of me. I don't know. Please don't hack me again Please don't ruin my life. It's already bad enough so I Don't know really what I'm trying to say here But I wanted to I wanted to point at that as showcase an example of people do it People just are willing to share because they want to and I don't know if that's a bad thing. I don't know if that's a good thing I think in some cases it can very well be both But I'm pretty pleased to just say this is my name I'm happy to say I'm John Hammond because I want to put out good work and show The products and the projects that I work on and have a presence on the internet and I think I do that to some extent so the self-docs Maybe isn't so bad But if you want to completely share Where you are and when as like the real world that may have physical repercussions. I don't know Yeah, that's probably not okay but Showcasing, I'm John and having a Twitter or having a YouTube page that kind of flaunts that name Maybe could be good in the long run between going to conferences or going to capture flag I'm just kind of having a name for yourself when you're out in the scene in the culture on Meetups or at conventions etc. Etc. That's probably maybe good and I hope maybe hey one day pretty soon Once I'm out of this school this this presents all I can hang out with you guys At a conference at a convention at a capture flag competition.  It's just John I've known him for how many years and it's cool because I've just seen his presence on the internet and You know you live in a way just through what I do and what I put out there. So that's cool I think that's cool. So self-docs good and bad depends on how you use it depends on how what you what you do on the internet Depends on what people say what people ask but as long as you're comfortable with it As long as you are kosher with putting stuff on the internet because I don't there are plenty of people that will say like oh Yeah, I don't really care at this point, you know OPM hack Sony hack it's stuff like stuff losing people's credit card information social security numbers It's like you are already out there your information is probably already known and Maybe it's bad for us as a culture to just at this point say like I don't care Like the damage is done. Oh well What could it was gonna do now? I'm already out there Okay, maybe we'll never know We don't know for sure if you specifically are out there if your information your credit card number your address or phone number Stuff is already in some hackers or nation-state terrorist adversary Database I don't want to say hacker because that is a hacker is a good thing In some cases, but when you when I when I say nation-state adversary or terrorist I hope that's more of a bad thing. I hope that has a bad connotation in your mind So, okay, I think that's enough of me talking. I hope you guys got to enjoy a little bit of the video Easy CTF was a blast. I have a lot of footage from this and I want to showcase more of it I can walk through some of the challenges if you need me to but I think running through them in the raw Capture was probably pretty cool and having some Video that I can talk over for just conversations and this I talk that that style of video. Hopefully that's good and cool So, thank you guys for watching. I'll talk to you soon and Leave a like, you know leave a comment. Tell me what you think show me sure your input What do you think are you one-two self-docs or what are you willing to put out on the internet? et cetera, et cetera, so later


Good evening to you and thank you for joining us on Y254. My name is Patricia Murioki. Tonight it's going to be hot in here. I already feel the hotness. Tonight we're talking about male involvement in contraception. For the longest time it has been a conversation only targeted or a conversation that we have revolving around women. Tonight we just try to see how can men get involved in family planning because at the end of the day it takes two to tango. So if as a man you want two children you should not leave the burden only to your partner that the other ones were supposed to make sure that it's the two children or three or four or five and we are just going to try and understand what is the role of men in contraception. We also try to see how can we be able, at what point we talk, we do start conversations around contraception and safe sex and at the same time how can different institutions looking at the religion community and also looking at the society. How can we all come together and make sure that we are having a very educative and informative conversation around contraception. Talk to us across our social media platforms. That is at Y254 channel. You can also reach me at Patricia Murioki and introducing the manel. I'm calling it the manel because we're talking about men issues. We're also talking to some amazing men. So we are talking tonight to Peter Ngurew is the founder of Pabu's Policy Institute. He also deals with a lot of reproductive health work. We also have Gideon Makumi who is a human resource and administration manager at Beather Network. He has also done a lot as far as reproductive health is concerned. Welcome guys. Thank you. You've had a good Wednesday, I believe. It has been great. When you hear, when I called you, okay I know Peter has had this conversation in different platforms and I know it's something that you found yourself engaging in constantly. What comes to your thought when someone gets to talk about male contraception? Thanks. Most of the time when we talk about male contraceptives, they have this conversation in the female context. So all the time, nini mna tumiyanga nini. As in no one asks you like, do you take care, have you ever thought about planning your family or who is in charge of planning your family?  It doesn't immediately come to your head like, what is my responsibility or what am I using to ensure that we don't get pregnant. Most of the time when we talk about male contraceptives, then the conversation moves beyond not the commodities that we are used to, but mainly to condom or to male methods that we will discuss maybe in a few minutes. But the first thing that comes to the head is a woman, not me, not me, the chick. So what is she using? Is she safe or not? So what do I need to do if she's not safe? Okay, Gideon, how about you? I think this is a conversation of contraceptives for a long time, predominantly it has been a conversation of the woman. And I think this is because of the limited available methods for men because there are very few, though I'm glad the technology is now advancing.  Because that's a permanent method. On the other hand, we have the use of condoms and with time and age, especially in a marriage context, the use of condom in itself is controversial because it looks like there's something wrong or one of the partners is cheating and therefore you don't want to have that conversation. So it's predominantly on the women, they are the ones who really bears the responsibility of family planning. Reproductive responsibility is not a women's issue. Being responsible for planning and raising a family is a universal issue that doesn't fall on gender lines today. I know the issues with the Pew research is still going on to really see, I've seen the trials that were done and I found something on the internet that says during the trials, the few men who are peaked, they experienced mood swings, they don't go to even, they were like, ah no, we don't want that being, but women have to deal with it. So would you take it, would you be willing to play a part and support your partner by not only being like, ok babe, it's ok, this is what is good for you, but you now are being to be the one on the peel. Would you take that bold step? It's a bold step. That's a good thing you brought up about why the male methods have taken so long to come to be and I know that's a myth and I like discussing myths because that's one of the myths that is being brought out by a lot of conservatives who are against contraceptives that the reason why the male contraceptives are not out is because men are afraid of the side effects that have seen their women go through. Like mood swings. Yeah, like who wants a man with a mood swing, who wants a man who has added weight or has lost weight, who wants a man who is, you know, for instance if for women you use contraceptives and maybe you need a shot too much, who wants a man who has exactly the same kind of side effect like is he spamming too much That's not the truth. The truth of male contraceptives is that the original concept of contraceptives was a women rights issue. The conversation was not about planning families, was not about taking care of a conversation in a family setup. It was how do we empower women to ensure that they get children when they want and how they want and the number of children they want. And it was very focused on the women. In the 70s and 80s it became a human rights, a women rights issue. And actually if you look at the conversation we had in 2012 in FP 2020 commitment in London, we said let's have an additional 120 million women using contraceptives. We said let's have an additional 10 million men using contraceptives. The fact that men have been left behind in the conversation but that does not mean that there is no research. Male contraceptive initiative in North Carolina has done a lot of research and they have grants all over the world around male contraceptives and we had condoms which was the original thing which is a barrier method and men and women use condoms. Then we moved to the jail which now is starting to work. We had the patch which had vasectomy which is reversible up to a certain, up to five years. After five years it's really difficult to reverse, you know there was a difference when it's cut but that's how far we are but now we have so many other methods that are coming up for men but the core of male contraceptives are you as a guy, because I look at this conversation because it's not a family planning conversation but a contraceptive conversation. A young guy in campus he's not planning a family so he needs to take care of himself not to get children when he's still this young how can he do that? You know when you have that conversation with that young man and tell him by the way it's not the responsibility of your woman and I tell young men if you don't want to be put in this box where you keep telling your boys there is no trapping you trapped yourself go out there take care of yourself because you had sex without a condom you trapped yourself so it's the young man to take care of himself use a condom have a sex with me of course it's not advice for guys who don't have children I use the patch which is coming up use this anyone call type and don't which is the Chinese hub which helps you reduce your sperm count so that your sperm are not active to be able to and you can't withdraw but it's for old man but anyway okay Peter you didn't answer our question would you take it would you be open? yes anytime would you be open to being probably on the peel or any other method of family planning or contraception that's a tricky question to just respond to directly and say yes or no but I think I think this is kind of a talk that we need to have with my wife for instance on what works because really like Peter has said a lot of trials are going on I'm not sure whether I want to get involved in the trials probably when it's so sure now I have a few pitas I will say directly then take it then we come to it and if a female is working and we are in agreement you are the one my wife is doing this I think I will be very supportive and I can have that conversation of what works for you but we are fighting for this support to go beyond unsupporting being that it's something that is still in its initial stages I think for now to be honest with you my answer will be no until I know about the results until you have like a research paper this is the way however if it's something that is of benefit to both of us I think it's something to consider but let's start this continue being done we are happy to continue research and learning I know anyway I know in a few minutes that you had this conversation we were trying to talk we probably one or two drone a point how we can be able to take this burden from women because for the longest time women have carried the burden of being the past people who are making sure that if you sit down as a couple and you're like okay I think we want to have children in three years it's the woman who goes out to try and see how easy I cannot get pregnant so now how do we involve men because we are never trying to see how do we involve men in that how do we convince them this support you can give more than just saying okay baby because I really would like us to get to that point but I think how I see it and I'm happy because nowadays it's something that is common in a marriage setup and allow me to speak within that limit because I'm in it already I realize that right now it's very very important when your wife is expecting to go with them even for the clinics because there's a lot of information that is given to them and for us men we end up missing it out because we think the responsibility of a child is solely on the woman mine is to provide after that whatever happens to the baby it is her responsibility but now at the time of birth and I'm speaking from experience I realize depending on which hospital you go to they are able to sit you down tell you now the baby is here this is what will be happening these are some of the changes to expect probably you don't even need to engage sexually for a certain period of time because you see if you're not there for instance when that conversation that advice is being given for us men we know naturally we are ready for sex anytime you can imagine it's a day 2 after they've come from the hospital and you are going and you have your expectation how about yeah I realize that they are now able to advise the doctors there tell you that we have this method we have this other one and they even give you time to go and discuss out there and come back to them and tell them which one works for you and when you're ready then after you've agreed you are now able to advise father because they even tell you the side effects of each one of them the ones that are homono the ones that are non-homono so I think the first support in the time managed we are in before we get to that time when now the pill for the men has been proven to work I think I'm happy if men would join their wives their partners for those clinics and even those gynaecological visits because they help I like that Gideon has talked about men getting involved but now not like has me the man making the decision because as I was doing research for this I saw someone say that most of the times even when a woman is going in to get whether it's the ejection the implant or whatever a method of family planning that they're using the people at the facility will be like and the person being told is the man so from that moment we've already started including the men trying to show them that this is a woman's issue it's like you're not supposed to be involved as a man the same thing with clinics the way Gideon has talked about it if you don't go to the clinic maybe you'll be told where we're going in a candle so how now do we also send the message to different facilities to different health practitioners to understand that when you're giving this talk about contraceptive to the women please also try to find a way or now you can involve the men Peter That's a dual question and it's interesting because originally we were saying women go to seek family planning when they're hiding from their husbands because their husbands don't support family planning Ya, they are some who don't Yes, so for a long time women have been the reason why men used to be told where Goja Parle is because the doctors or the nurses think that the husband maybe again is family planning and most women actually would come and leave their cards in the facility and say injection three months I don't want to carry my injection cards the next date we will fill it up so that has been the tradition and that has been the reason why men have been sort of excluded but increasingly when we started talking about male involvement and the first one was on the clinics and in this country we passed across the policies because it's not a government direct police that if a man comes to the clinic with his wife if a man escorts his wife to the clinic they don't queue so this was an incentive because most men were saying ah women go to the clinic and take the whole day so at all bring her and she will not take the whole day she will take that minute it was the first incentive to getting men to the facility because men don't go to hospitals so that was the first initial thing to bringing men but then increasingly now men are being involved at the birth because most of these family planning methods are postpartum so what's the conversation so you are there and you are sort of educated on what does your woman require for you to ensure that ah she does not get pregnant until she's done with exclusive breastfeeding until she's done with the three years of the two years of breastfeeding and then an extra year of recovery so that after three years then you can now be ready for it but a lot of men of course have a lot of myths about family planning and they need to get to the facility for them to learn because they will not understand their wives when their wives tell them you ask okonu na nyesha 2 weeks continuously and that guy will not understand so until he's told maybe a woman was given a method a homono method that did not work well for her she needs to change her method he'll start feeling but all those who lose libido and the guy is like he doesn't like me anymore so this in fact if there is someone who should be involved more in the contraceptive conversation it's the guy who is in charge of his family and that's for a family man for a young man Gideon has tasted the family man me I talk for the young men in Kampu who are not ready to get married but they just out there that guy will not come to the clinic with a girl because he's not he's interest is not that he's just having fun so he also needs avenues in which he needs to learn about contraceptive what works for him as a person and so that he starts seeing we tell girls when they get into campus use this method it's 5 years so you'll be done with your campus life and you'll have one year of getting a job what do we tell a guy because he has no method that can last in 5 years so we need to really encourage facilities policy makers to have a different approach to involving men and young men so according to some statistics among the 1.9 billion women of reproductive age group that is of 15 to 49 years worldwide in 2019 1.1 billion have a need for family planning of these 842 million are using contraceptive methods and 270 million have an unmet need for contraception this now brings me to the question have we invested enough do you feel we have invested enough as a country as far as family planning is concerned have we gone into getting probably making sure that we have good research because you hear people talking about the long term effects of the contraceptives you hear some you can be on a contraceptive and you still get pregnant so have we invested enough in family planning I would say that we are somewhere compared to a few years ago the 80s the 70s right now we are I think we are around 56 penetration of the family planning and when you look at what is happening especially in the health centers you'd appreciate that something is being done about it however I would say we are not yet there but the journey where we are so far it's promising and a lot more is still happening even at a personal level nowadays contraception is available you can just walk into a hospital as a woman and say for me I'm here I want a jadella insertion I want a coil and should be available at a very affordable cost so that is something that is really promising as far as the future of hitting the target of about 80% use of that is concern so I must admit that a lot has been done and still working progress but we are good above 50% somewhere Pita being because I believe under pathways you able to do a lot of research around contraceptive you get to talk to a lot of people about it how would you say we doing as a country as Guido mentioned we are doing okay we can say we are okay because what we need to reduce I am glad you brought up that statistics what we need to reduce is the unmet need for family planning unmet need for family planning means women who want to use family planning but cannot get it because either they can't access it they can't afford it, they don't have the right choices and it's not equitable so they can't find it the places where they would want to get because countries like Nigeria are at that 6% but you look at the unmet need for family planning which is at 20% looking at ours we are at 38% unmet need meaning Nigeria is actually doing better than us because people don't need to take up contraceptives by the way we should not look to emit 80-90% because the aim is not to have every woman using contraceptives the aim is to ensure that when a woman wants to have contraceptives they can have it and our biggest challenge as a country has been first domestic investment in family planning our commodities have been donor driven 100% we have been having DFID, UNFPA USAID, KFW giving us commodities of about our budget for contraceptives in 2018-2019 was about 2.1 billion shillings and Kenya invested only 800 million donors invested more than a billion in our and as we moved to what the journey for self reliance around contraceptives Kenya does not invest in commodities in buying family and they are not cheap that's why you hear 2-3 billion if we don't invest in that then we will continue having a bigger unmet need for family planning we have what we call the costed implementation plan now we are launching the third one costed implementation plan between 2022 and 2025 we need about 9 billion shillings to invest in family planning if we are to reduce our unmet need for family planning up to close to zero but if you look at how much and then the other challenge is that health is devolved so counties are the ones as much as the national government will work around the CIP and buy commodities this work is being done at the counties if counties have no costed implementation plans if counties are not accountable to how much they invest in budgets for health then we will just be having the same conversation and it's quite expensive as I mentioned it's expensive for women ordinarily a woman living her house to go and buy a coil or a pill when we talk about safe, what is it probably the best time to start talking about safe sex to start talking about safe contraception what do you think is the best time for people to start embracing that conversation around our communities, talking to young girls talking to young men because I know there are limitations some of which I feel we can surpass but what do you think is the best way Pashisha this is a question that has different dimensions when we are looking at the religious limitations we talk about when you are married however the reality of the matter is our girls and our boys are getting involved in sex at a very early age including in primary school so I think that empowerment should start as soon as possible as soon as you think say as a parent or as a community that the your girls and your boys are growing and they are able to understand the risks and the dangers involved in sex I think that is the right time to start I would say it is 10 years it is 15 years because the exposure comes at different times and the sooner these boys and girls get the information about the risks of it the pregnancy, the STIs the better for us as a community because if we remain silent for a long time and assume that it is a taboo talk about sex if it is ungodly to tell your daughter or your son sit down let's talk about sex then you will only have yourself to blame when they indulge in it because they would rather sorry they would rather learn from us as the adults than they learn from their friends who are as much uninformed as they are so the sooner we do this the better Peter Gideon has talked about we know that contraception conversations around safe sex and all that if something that the religious community has really come out so strong against how do we try to also bring them on board because I believe for us to get to a point where these things are normalized we need every institution involved how would we get the religious community to understand that we are not telling these young people we are not educating them about sex or informing them about sex with an intention of promoting immorality but rather at least being aware you are able to make a better choice we always tell people, religious institutions or even political leaders or even parents that the earlier you speak to your child about sex the more they delay their sexual debut actually we have researchers showed that uninformed kids start getting curious about sex 9, 10, 11 and they do have sex at 12, 13 informed children delay their sexual debut to 15, 16 and so this is proven that the more you talk to them about sexuality because when you talk about a lot of people say when you say about comprehensive sexuality education we are saying let's teach our kids how to have sex we are talking about age appropriate sexuality education when a kid is 5 years you are telling them what is this thing you have between your legs clearly who should touch it who should consent and you see that conversation about consent starts early and if you can have this conversation as early as 5 years it's better for them and we have religious groups I always laugh about marriage counseling people are doing marriage counseling they are telling all this conversation we can't tell you earlier they should start telling them just hold on if you can't wait let's get you married religious leaders have a big role to play around 30 seconds each run out of time 30 seconds each your parting shot the whole conversation about family planning contraception method I think in a marriage setup I think it's a conversation between a husband and a wife let it not be a burden of the wife that should be a conversation that both of us know that of kusif to marry people you are so well represented man take charge of your relationships you are the guys leading this families you are the heads of these families you are the heads of your relationships don't come to us telling us I was trapped take control of your contraceptive needs thank you very much guys I feel conversations around family planning contraceptive safe sex education we can sit here and talk the entire night we can have another show and still talk and not exhaust but for people watching as I hope that you've learnt one or two take it upon yourself to really understand more contraception what family planning is all about if you are not in a family setup please if you are not ready to be a father if you are not ready to be a mother figure out ways that are going to work for you or now you can protect yourself thank you very much my name is Patricia Morioki do have yourselves a very good night good stuff