Hello and welcome to the news clip. Very recently, the Central Bureau of Investigation and the Enforcement Directorate have filed a case against the Center for Promotion of Social Concerns and its program unit, The People's Watch, which are based from Tamil Nadu. They have been alleged of violating the Foreign Contributions Regulation Act and have been booked under two sections of the IPC as well. The organizations have been very vocal about the violations of human rights across the country and particularly from Tamil Nadu and have been involved in creating awareness among the public and college students on human rights. To discuss more on the background, we have with us Mr. Henry Tepin, the Executive Director of People's Watch. Welcome sir. Welcome. So, to begin with the CPSC and the People's Watch are being accused of violating the Foreign Contributions Regulation Act at CRA 2010 and cases are being filed as per IPC 120 v and 420. So, what is your comments on this and what do you think is the reason behind the action taken now after a very long delay? Well, when the CBI officers came to my office on the 8 with a search warrant, I warmly welcomed them and told them that they were 10 years late. They were exactly 10 years late. Now, when I told them they were 10 years late, I had something in mind. Unfortunately, I don't know whether they knew it and I told them we are, we go by the rule of law and therefore we have to abide by the rule of law. You have come with a search warrant, I signed a search order of the CBI, of the CBI court and I have no problem in sharing with you documents. The only thing is that I would have to call my accountant today who's physically not here because of some family religious ceremonies that day. They did complete the ceremonies fast and I did all these calls in front of them so that they don't think that we are, we delay them like some politicians delay different people, some force them to jump water, some force them to go into forest etc. We said we are here and within one hour I think they had all the documents that they wanted and it seems it was being downloaded from the lofts and made available to them. They were quite happy with the cooperation they got. They seized about 12 documents and have left saying that they will come back again and even they come back we will give them more documents as they please. But the problem is and what is important is not that they came here and we cooperated but they have come here after the government of Tamil Nadu had told them in July 2012 that they will be able to investigate the case. So there should have been an investigation by the government of Tamil Nadu and the government of the AIADMJ will have to give us or give the public the knowledge of what they did from 2012 till 2020 when they were in power. And this is a parliament response by the Minister of State for Home Affairs who says so and it is during their tenure that on 2012-2020 as stated in the first information report which has been made available to the public by the CBI itself on its website that everybody knows that on the second CIO 9 that was passed where the additional Chief Secretary to government has signed it by order of the governor approving the investigation of this case to be handed over to the CBI. Now you hand over to the CBI something that you cannot do but this GEO does not state what they have done from 2012 onwards till 2020 and that is what is disturbing for me.  So this is not something which is very interesting that way number one number two sir we were before them at Delhi High Court the Ministry of Home Affairs came to our office after our suspension in the month of July 2012 2012 they came to our office on two occasions each time five time five people five days eight to eight very intensive work and I appreciate them they were always very polite there was no lack of politeness from the officers who came to the field we also provided them all the documents that they wanted after all that they have got falsity in their FAIR falsity in their FAIR if I read the FAIR I will be tearing it into pieces and therefore I don't want to talk about the FAIR the we were suspended on 16 7 2012 for the first time we were there after suspended again we were there after suspended again on February 18th 2013 and yet a third time on 16th of September 2013 each suspension is 180 days now the law is very clear sir in 2020 the legislation said one suspension of 180 days the ministry gave us three suspensions one after another today in 2020 the act has been amended to make way for two suspensions but I already suffered three suspensions during the period of the third suspension sir I went to the supreme I went to the Delhi High Court why did I go to the Delhi High Court because the ministry of home affairs is within the jurisdiction of the Delhi High Court and therefore there I got an order in 2014 on the 9th of May 2014 which I have with me here which I can make available to you where the court says in the meantime if no fresh suspension has been passed under section so the petitioner shall be at liberty to operate its bank accounts so and so so so if I have a person who commits crimes of conspiracy cheating and transgressing the foreign contribution regulation act would the court say this the court has repeated it on these 16th of September sorry July 2014 and I lead para para four which is very interesting to you para four which I hope you will be able to see that which says moreover ministry of home affairs dated in their communication dated 10th of June 2014 directed ministry directed the branch manager of the above mentioned bank that in compliance of the order of 95 which I showed you earlier the foreign contribution designated bank accounts so and so of central promotion of social concerns may be allowed to be operated it's not a court order it's an order of the ministry of home affairs arey what is this who's playing who's playing hot and cold here in 2014 2014 you permit me first court permitted me you say you have no objection and that is how the red petition that we filed selling in the three suspensions was closed so if I have been somebody who was committed an offense and a criminal my goodness me should they not have said it in court in the counter is it that by the ministry of home affairs that we have is it that negligent foreign contribution regulation act unit that we have in the ministry I'm sorry sir I don't like to speak poorly of the efficiency of my government but that is what I what it is therefore my bank accounts were operated in 14 operated fully in 15 operated fully in 16 till 29th of October 2010 2016 when our renewal certificate was prevented I therefore went back to court challenging the renewal certificate when I filed a red petition in 2016 the first thing the government has to do is to ensure that they file a counter in the court instead of that what they did very interestingly they were in a syndrome of suspension suspension to CPSC suspension to CPSC suspension to CPSC where three now is the fourth suspension to CPSC so I asked them when there is FCRA you can suspend but when there is no FCRA on the 29th of October by your order what are you suspending and we filed a red petition and immediately they gave a bid trial I don't know whether you can see it withdrawal of so-called notice and suspension on the 17th of May and the repetition that I filed came to a close there by after which they filed a counter sir now what will you expect in the counter sir you will expect something financial the counter reads as follows in the year 2011-2013 and I got it here I'm not making it up it is their counter and I will also show you that it has been signed by the deponent here who is an undersecretary in the Ministry of Home Affairs now on the 17th of January 2017 and there they say sir which is most important they say the truth comes out here in the year 2011 to 2013 Henry DeFayne Executive Director of People's Watch was noticed to be receiving foreign contributions what is this for you to notice it is it is there on the website before the foreign contribution regulation act wanted us to put our receipts for 10 years in advance we had our accounts on the website of People's Watch I was inspired by Aruna Roy I was inspired by the ordinary four people of Rajasthan who fought for the Right to Information Act and I said as a rights activist if they can do this then as an NGO which is not covered by the RTI Act I must put my accounts which are audited on the website the government demanded it in 2010 I did it much earlier and I'm proud of it nobody asked me to do it and he says he was found Henry DeFayne was found to be providing material and information to the UN Special Rapporteurs and the US Embassy and British High Commission Officials portraying India's work India's human rights record in negative light on the basis of that funding you don't need funding sir to write a letter to the United Nations today even attending United Nations meetings I don't need to fly to Geneva you do it online all our communication with the Special Rapporteurs are always by email I don't need any funding to do that but unfortunately the ministry's officials are so poorly informed that they put this in writing and make my government a laughing stock in the international sphere then they say Father Henry DeFayne was using foreign contribution to the detriment of India's image by using foreign money he marked himself and his organization CPSC as a defender of human rights I don't need foreign money to start to make me a defender my dear friend from 2012 onwards till today 2600 days my foreign FCRA account has been closed except for that period when I got a court order opening it have I stopped working for human rights 600 complaints have filed before the NHRC on behalf of defenders which also include journalists did I need foreign money for that I need an email I need an investigating and I need people like you to support across the country and of course it is put in my name not because I do the work because I'm willing to take the blame that's all I don't do the work there are many people like you in different parts of the country who do the work that is the protection of human rights work it has to be that therefore this is the reason why the FCRA went this is the same reason now in spite of not having FCRA we cannot control this step we will give them a CBA case is the price I've got in 2022 I'm happy to take this as a challenge because we are people of tough character not because we want to be ruled not because we want to be arrogant not because we want not something goes into our head we always need to be humbled but we need to be powerful we need to be truthful we need to be credible and that we will continue to react and if they think that their CBA investigation will stop me talking I'm sorry that is a wrong strategy they'll have to try something else what is sad sir is my trustees who trust us are very very important people our trustee up to 2012 was Mr. Vain Gopal IAS who happened to be the personal secretary to prime minister V.P Singh and resigned from that position he was later NHRC special rapporteur now he has been made an accused because he was a trustee during that period Mr. Binu Mkotari a UN special rapporteur formerly of on housing is a is a present trustee Mr. P.V. Rajiv Gopal of of of egg operation who led the the land rates much up to Agra you remember that person with lakhs and lakhs of Ali Vasis he is a trustee I have a number of college professors who are trustees I have a number of lawyers who are trustees I have a great Uranus and you being from Tamil Nadu you know Mr. Muta Krishnamurthy professor Muta Krishnamurthy he is known only as Muta Krishnamurthy because he was the secretary general of the Madurai University teachers association he is a trustee I am the president of the YMCA national YMCA formally Mr. Arsatya Murthy as as a trustee I am a retired professor of Tamil Dr. I. Devasek I am as one of my trustees I can go on on this list but what is most important is that they are all made accused today is that fair is that fair for people of this this repute who have come out to stand it for human rights is this what they want I am sorry we are cutting a story here it's cutting a very sorry figure you you have any quarrels with me you you do anything to me don't do it to my trustees and because of these trustees and because we had a chartered accountant of of the best caliber in the country Dr. M. Khandasamy that our accounts are above gold and I will say this at the top of a hat and I want to tell you that our business of transparency and accountability cannot match the FCRA I used to before the bank account was closed every year have a committee of concerned citizens in Madurai city to whom we will use to own our bank account the bank every year there were professors some of them are members of parliament later became members of parliament Mr. Viswanathan who later became a member of parliament of of Sripuramudu constituency of the congress party it was in Madurai was a member lots of people were members former IAS, former IPS, former national NHRC secondary general, former home ministry secretary all of them were members not to see accounts to see account books accounts audited accounts were presented but account books were presented along with vouchers who does that sir who does that can you ask me one NGO in Tamil Nadu one NGO in Tamil Nadu who opened their vouchers opened their vouchers opened their salary slips who opened their income tax paid who opened the PF paid and all these are people who are in government positions and therefore they used to make recommendations and my my account unit will say sorry over time we are asking for these people each time they are giving us new new ideas which means more work for us I said the higher standards of accounting is what protects the human rights organization so we are not somebody who can indulge in the type of accusations made against us the ED to claim the enforcement directorate came asked for my wife's account my daughter's account my son-in-law's account and my account we gave all that I've got the love and affection and the support and solidarity of people of my state and the country that is extremely costly that is the sotu I have and I'm proud I have that we don't need to do frauds like this to take money which is given to us as trustees in trusteeship to do human rights work my human rights work of taking human rights edict to our schools in our state must stop sir not in Tamil Nadu alone 22 states has the government has the NHRC done it has any state human rights commission done it with all humanity I say we did it continue to do it sir because we believe this is our duty fundamental duty under 51 a of the constitution we will then you proceed against us we have no problem we will face it that is the cost one has to pay if the constitution and the rights in our constitution are to be protected the CPC and people's watch have raised their voice against the violations of human rights and have played a very crucial role in several incidents in Tamil Nadu as well do you think that your proactive role is being recent for being targeted by the government or the government organizations well I think the question is posed to the wrong person but I had an answer in 2012 they told me you had supported the Kudangulam protest I thought it is the the worst thing that would be told to me the Kudangulam protest for those who accused me at that time was carried on by thousands of women thousands of future women they are the they are the vandals of the anti Kudangulam protest if we have succeeded it may not have succeeded don't forget that alternative sources of energy in Tamil Nadu which the Adhanis are are are coming to invest the movement towards that came from the protest of Kudangulam don't forget that don't forget that I went to Kudangulam yes they asked me when they came for investigation did you go I said yes I went when did you go I said I went on 17th September you said how is it that you remember I said sir for you dates doesn't matter for me it matters on the 10th of September the Tamil Nadu police killed seven Dalits in a firing in Paramaguri on the 11th of September Uday Kumar my good friend Uday Kumar launched this protest on one day and then he continued it from the 11th onwards and I heard that 200 women were on a fast unto death and they had drips on the stage of Kudangulam I was very moved I said people cannot die for protesting I called Nidumaran Iya I called Mr. P. Nidumaran Nidumaran and I told him Iya I'm going there I'm going to see and if it is somebody who has been forced into a protest will you come if they want to close their protest to come and give them the language you said Henry you go there and then come and report to me I'll be there sure I'll be there I went to Kudangulam sir on the 17th of September why 17 because for seven days I was in Paramaguri I went on the 17th and to my shock and surprise sir I saw that there were 200 women on the on the stage there were many who had drips but there were 20,000 women gathered in front of them I said what a big fool I am we all think we know great things there were 20,000 women who were protesting they did not need a Henry Define there to protect them they knew how to protect them better I came back that was my visit to Kudangulam I thought what in my FCR why should they use Kudangulam as an excuse what did I do in Kudangulam did Kudangulam people need our money did Kudangulam people need our legal assistance did Kudangulam people need to know how to struggle because of us they carried on their peaceful protest and they are they are they are they are they are political acts for what they did so that was the false so what was the truth I did not know that this was the truth but later I came to know that the IAW the Research and Analysis Wing had an entry in my file in the Ministry of Home Affairs and the entry was what my association with the UN Special Rapporteur on Human Rights Defended as Margaret Sagakya who visited India from the first to the 11th of January 2012 sorry 2011 and she came out of the report and I took her I took her to Gujarat Modi was Chief Minister there she went to Jammu she went to Srinagar she was in Delhi she was in Bhuvaneshwar she was in Kolkata she was in Gawati in Gawati she met the brother of Hiram Sarmida who had conducted a 16-year struggle against Afswa the report was a strong report of course very difficult for the government to stomach the second the National Human Rights Commission in the year 2011 had to submit its report for accreditation to the global alliance of national human rights institutions we came out with an alternative report on the National Human Rights Commission and just trying to see whether it falls into my into my eye somewhere but it doesn't and that alternative report was released in the Constitution Club by none other than Justice Verma a former member chairperson of the NHHRC of course the NHHRC had difficult times after that and a member of the NHHRC who the former police officer who served two terms one term under recommended by Vajpayee's ministry second term recommended by Anwar Singh's ministry this was a gentleman who wanted to teach entity fair in a lesson and ensured that the FCR event that was the reason sir so if they thought that they could shut my mouth they realized in the years that they cannot shut my mouth I am nobody compared to the thousands of people who continue to be in prison sir and I think people like us have to humble ourselves and humble our work we're looking at the Adivasis the directs the Muslims of our country and the intellectuals who are called urban naxals today who are in prison and who die in prison I'm nothing nothing compared to them and therefore there's much more to be done to do what the NHHRC refuses to do to do what the 179 national and state human rights institutions of our country are negligent of not doing it's our duty to do that and we will we are inspired by leaders we are inspired you see behind me KG Kannabaran we are inspired by personalities like him and Balagopal who's below and my mother who's there these are our source of inspiration to continue a hard but committed inspiring life of protecting the rights of the poorest of the poor and at any cost we will do it sir


There we be looks like the zoom has has continued to change their interface. So it's always interesting And we're always sort of mindful of some of the security issues. I think Actually, Brian, did you see the email that I circulated through David yesterday to that to that point? I Sorry hadn't gotten to it So so we had one of one of our members was on a I think they were on a meet-up call I think it was out of Europe of our recall and and there was some what's it called zoom zoom bombing. Yeah, boom bombing Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I talked to David about it Forded yeah forward that along. I so so I think we're fairly secure here As long as host me keeps host and we don't let everyone be hosted. I think we're generally okay, but There we go. I still see it enabled to share my screen. I don't know if I have some special privilege What we're trying to do is turn off screen sharing and annotation as a you know to To the general population, right? You know hosts can still do it and hosts can still grant that to people but you know, that's Screen sharing and annotation is how a lot of zoom bombing happens. So yeah, yeah So yeah, so I have screen sharing turned off for participants and and I think the way that I had it set up it was That as long as host is sharing no one else can sort of take over so that should that should be sufficient But oh good morning Wendy when so Wendy was Wendy was a person that was kind enough to pass along the information. Oh, yeah You're so welcome and what I'd like to do is when I find out about the next hyper ledger African meeting I will pass it along to this group It would be wonderful to show them support after what they went through yesterday. Yeah. No, that's that's horrible I'm sorry to hear that it that happened and thank you for Bring that to our attention. Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah Okay, well, let's get started. It is top the hour. Thanks everyone for joining us This is hyper ledger health care specialist group. This is our first general meeting since Oh boy since March. So it's been quite a while We're gonna try to sort of get back into a more typical cycle For the special engines group, but we're going to continue to pay attention to the to the cobit 19 Virus pandemic and so we'll be talking about that a little bit later We'll continue to sort of feature some of those topics and issues As they come along. In fact just before the call I I saw an invite through linkedin that I think I'll pass along To membership. I need to just sort of vet it to make sure I understand who's offering it But there are quite a number of folks that are out there continuing to talk and work around the cobit virus. So this is certainly Not something that that has gone away. In fact just before the call a couple of us Just before the hour we're talking about some of the longer term implications of the virus culturally And and so this is going to be with us for quite some time As a reminder, this is a recorded event And so please be mindful of that. We have an antitrust slide that we maintain Please review it and review the url that's presented there against regarding antitrust in general, it is Really speaks to to being a good person and making sure that an any ip that you present here in a public forum is Suspects, so please Be thoughtful to that extent And and let's see like I said, we do have a very light crew effect everywhere. Oh, good morning, Jim. How are you? Good I was just gonna say it looks like everybody on the call. I know pretty well These are all of our all basically the regulars. Good morning. Ravish. How are you? Ohp and Ravish you're there we go. Yeah, good morning. What are you doing? Good. Good. How are you? I'm doing good Great great to have you on the call So oh and and camlish destroying good morning camlish. How are you? Yeah, good morning Great to have you on the call Yeah, good good So, yeah, so it looks like we have a pretty small group this time around. I don't see any new folks I spoke with a couple of folks over the past couple of weeks who are will be joining us presumably soon If not in this call, we've got quite a new new group of members. I think coming out of India and then there was a person that I Rich out to me on the east coast. So I suspect we'll be seeing them Maybe on today's call. If not today then the next cycle So everybody kind of understanding of where we are with introductions And so as well just as a reminder, I think most of us have done this already But we do have our membership directories of police make use of that to make sense that you feel it's it's valuable We get we continue to get some good engagement with that. So it's always great to see And then I think let's segue over to any community announcements that anyone would like to to bring up in the in the form here Alrighty sounds mighty quiet. Well, like I said, I do have a couple of potentials that are coming through Like I said, I need to vet them. I think one of the sites that had had Made a request to me was a organization I think it's block.io Or block.co. I'm sorry. I think that's what it was But I'm going to I'm going to look into that Just to see but they look like they're doing some presentation using blockchain technologies on covid riders I'll pass that along to membership when I when I have a better chance to talk with the folks that are presenting that So let's see. So we haven't done subgroup updates in quite some time In fact, we're we're coming up on our quarterly cycle End of this in the end of this month will be in our sort of mid-year review I'll be reaching out to the to leads so that we can get status and roll-ups as we've done We used to do accordingly. We're going to do it semi-yearly now semi-annually and so I'll reach out to leads on that So for patient subgroup Dennis and I just exchanged an email A little while ago. It is his birthday today. So he is actually on the lake Or a lake. I'm not sure which lake this is back in switzerland He said he was going to try to call on on a mobile phone. So I that boy that's a that's commitment if he does So he did let me know that the patient member subgroup continues to move forward They they have done their poc e-consent work And what they're doing right now is they're sort of reconvening to just decide how how to proceed Beyond their poc And just as a reminder there the poc that they've worked is e-consent in the pharma industry Dennis who who leads this has an extensive background in the pharma space back in europe And and the e-consent work that they've done he's done a phenomenal job Engaging quite a number of of hc sig members at a global level Including oh gosh Kent Lau I think who's a pharmacist out of hong kong if I recall was a major player in that work effort Um, I don't see anyone or don't recognize anyone the call who's also a member of the subgroup Just offhand I could be wrong I've attended that subgroup. I'm not there all the time, but I have attended it on a fairly regular basis And you're right about kent. He's actually got two different pocs. He's working on right now um, just testing out For his application to see if um, how fabric compares to basu. So he's he's actually in the middle of working on that Oh good. Yeah, and so so what so what Dennis passed along to me is they're they're going to be uh, Reconvening and they do get together every other week They're going to be Convening to decide how to sort of move forward from their poc and the poc itself Evidently from Dennis's point of view has gotten a lot of very good attention Out of europe and so I I would imagine They'll they'll be able to sort of maybe turn that into something And I don't know if he's looking for funding support or how he's going to move forward with it, but that's Kind of the plan going forward Anything else jim that that I may have missed this is so here's my problem I wish kenton was here because I'm going to say something that is probably 75 right, but it could be 25 wrong I believe the poc. He's running is on fabric 1.4 on the fabric side And the problem with that is I know enough on fabric 2.0 To say many of the conclusions you would draw about fabric from 1.4 Would not be at all valid in the 2x environment for what it's worth and This is jim Next month the end of next month. They're supposed to be Shipping 2.2 of fabric and theory Which is the long-term stable release the bigger thing is that the functionality have the whole platform runs both operationally And from a i'll call it a smart contract coding perspective is significantly different You know, so it's it makes it difficult if you do a poc on 1.4 And then try to say, okay, here's here's what I come away with this conclusions It's you know, that's has some validity, but probably not a lot in many cases Yeah, it's it's a bit time box. So I don't know brian Do you have any insight into the reason really schedule for for fabric offhand? Uh Just that 2.2 is planned to be a long-term support release. Um, and uh, it will be I don't know. I don't I don't know when it will be released, but it should be within the next month or two Yeah, apologies for putting you on the spot So, yeah, so that sounds really interesting jim, uh, and yeah, and kent usually is on the call And so, uh, I'll I'll work with dentists to see if we can get some update from dentists on specifics to that And as I said, I do know that they are working to sort of sort of decide how to move forward after the poc and it was a very successful poc There are quite a number of folks that that have been involved at different levels There's a gentleman out of uh, I want to say russia Alex I think is sort of the short I think it's alexander And jim correct me if i'm wrong, but I think he also did the sawtooth health care hyper ledger lab work and so He's a factor involved in that as well And actually to that point. I was just exchanging some some some talk with vipin who's uh, one of his leads for one of our other work work groups Not sigs and so vipin. I think we're gonna see Helping to sponsor another health care project in in hyper ledger labs And so that's great Uh, and as a reminder, um, there's a little bit of confusion around this that comes up. So special interest group Chairs aren't aren't permitted to sponsor. So it has to sort of get routed through Work groups instead. So vipin is has been kind enough to sort of work as a proxy for for a lot of this work effort And and ravish as well You guys just had a uh, uh, you're I think you did a pharmacy Um project through hyper ledger lab too.  We got the lab approved. So it's in the in the github now So we are we are just starting and we were just finalizing about the fabric 2.0 and and you know, as jim mentioned 2.2 is is around the corner. So, you know, luckily, I mean, we are just starting right now So we should be able to, you know, get to the newer version Um with what we are doing okay, well Yeah, well, well, congratulations on that that took a little bit took a little bit of time To make that happen, but I'm glad to see that that's that's transpired Uh, let's segue over to your revision. Let's talk about the pear subgroup Sure, sure. So, um in pear subgroup, uh, we are looking at Um, you know first use case that that came up was the pharmacy management. There is a lot of spend I mean, if you all know from, you know, one of the healthcare Um, pear's biggest cost is speciality medication and pharmacy and with all these opioids and you know, all these things happening around Um, we are looking at a use case wherein we are, um, you know, kind of leveraging blockchain to to create a much better Real-time consent from member so that the you know the duplication of the Uh fulfillment and and fraud and you know, so-called ghost prescriptions are not, you know, coming into the system Um, we uh, we I've which I requested you earlier. Maybe we can put on the list for the next week Next meeting I would love to go through that use case in in this forum and get some feedback to refine that use case I think we are seeing a lot of traction and the use case caters to both the You know, um scenarios of fraud and better management real-time consent from member and all but also enables You know, um fraud management and uh ease of fulfillment You know, uh, there are certain certain industries in uh from pear standpoint, which is vision industry deals with prescription a little bit differently wherein I want to be able to go to a fulfillment shop and get my prescription But if I don't like there, I want to go to another one today. You if I'm sure those who wear glasses in us You know go through that pane of I didn't like it here If I have to go to another one I have to get the author released And you know, they have to send the facts the prescription Um to to to the next full filler and and things like that. So there are these ease of use and and you know while enabling the fraud management That's the use case that we are focusing on And we'd love to cover that. I mean, we are we are seeing Interest from additional, you know team members joining. So I think So far we are so far so good Yeah, yeah, that's a good reminder. Uh ravish. I have a note here that uh, yeah, we could Set aside some time for a presentation from the pear subgroup. That would be great Yep perfect And just and as a reminder you want to talk a little bit about your the schedule for your meetings Yes, so we meet every other Friday not this Friday, but the next Friday And every other Friday at 1 p.m. Eastern standard time. We have been talking. I know kent is also an active You know member of our group and we are talking about if there is a change in schedule required or not so far We are doing good. But in case it changes I will definitely inform and put it on our wiki but all the meeting notes and everything is available on the wiki as well Just like we are following the protocol for all each of the meetings Excellent. Yeah, and and yeah, and so the easy easy way that I think about it is it's it's opposite this meeting At 10 o'clock pacific or to your point one o'clock eastern And so and you and you guys meet pretty regularly And uh, yeah, and so yeah, I have a note here. I'll follow up with your revision We'll we'll get some time scheduled so you guys can uh, present Much like we did with the patient subgroup gosh, it's been maybe So several months ago. I guess earlier this year before the kovat stuff. So yeah forward.  It's been a while Good grief. Thanks ravish Uh, so uh, so I'll speak on behalf of uh, steven elliott Stephen has been out for for a while due to some health issues The healthcare interoperability subgroup uh does meet uh twice So We're getting some feedback. Just hold on just a second. I'm a mute here. Um So the the healthcare interop subgroup meets uh every other monday I want to say eight o'clock pacific time. I'd have to double check that But steven's been driving this this is our newest subgroup and the focus is really on interoperability and and he's developing really a stack On top of a dlt. Ideally its fabric could be sawtooth And the intent of that is for the sake of interoperability and and the the key takeaway from this is The focus tends to be more semantic interoperability and less syntactic interoperability. And so that's where their work effort goes to They're they're still developing Sort of a core team there and that's subgroup. So if there's anyone interested that wants to be participating in that Feel free to do so um Yeah, i participated in that. Yeah, i was gonna And i will say that yeah, he has selected fabric as his poc platform. So he's moving ahead with that and you're right It's absolutely focused on data interoperability semantic interoperability as opposed to technical between two different blockchains for sure Yeah, exactly. Uh, and so uh, so again, uh, steven and i talked, uh, so There he's had had a bit of a challenge Sort of maintaining consistency there, but it's a really it's an it's an amazing subgroup Steven is a super bright guy. And so if anyone Wants to sort of get on that on that subgroup And to sort of help continue to drive that again, we're building a core team around that right now. And so looking forward to that Okay, um Any other comments as far as subgroups go? Uh, and and again, uh, ravish Uh, yeah, it's i will plan to have some time set aside so that we can get, uh air super together All right Oh, i'm sorry, uh, i have i'm getting some feedback from someone, uh, nerken Oh Thank you very much, i am just onto a gd one lake on the boat And i tried to connect it and i succeeded at the end Oh, well, well first of all, great to have you on the call and happy birthday and thank you very much I got a surprise in the last many times. Uh, i had to take it Well, good anyway Oh, okay, so the boat being on the boat is a surprise. I'm assuming I don't want to know more if there's It's a nice one. It is almost 110 years old Oh, very very cool. Well, I I did I did do uh, your your uh, patient subgroup update But do you want to you want to talk a little bit more about some of the work that you guys have been doing? Yes, uh We are reorganizing our group after our, uh, poc of e-consent And uh, you might already made an update. I don't talk too much Uh, everybody from uh, from the list call is very much also welcome to join our subgroup because Uh, we can define another use case altogether also relevant to the corona days covid 19 days And patient data together with standards is very much relevant And I just also had yesterday an interesting call With one of the big farmer in switzerland One of the topics they are very very much, uh, interested are is fair data. I also send an email to you rich Yes, yes, I said and Any any person any, uh, interested parties are very much welcome to our group And this is every second week on monday before steven's meeting Seven this is seven Uh In the morning pacific time and I'm looking forward to our cooperation Oh, excellent. So, uh, so So i'm So denis just to confirm i'm able to forward that along to membership that invitation I'll take your father. I couldn't catch you. Oh, i'm sorry. So so what you forwarded over to me regarding that Is that an open invitation to all hc sig members? Exactly very much. Oh, perfect. Thank you very much. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I will do so. Thank you. Um, well, thanks for that, uh, denis Have a great birthday. Uh, thank you very much and and stay safe Perfect timing All right, take care. Thank you, denis Wow, that was timing timing for that Uh, okay. So, uh, so that's our our subgroups update. So let's move into our ad hoc teams So I haven't generally speaking. I have an open sort of, uh, call to anyone that is a confluence expert Uh, and we're always looking for ways to to sort of rethink and we put redesign to uh, to this to this wiki As well as extend that obviously to any any other special interest groups that we have through the confluence Domain space here in in hyperlature I I'm always just interested in getting a better sense for how we want to structure things and so that's always available for anyone That's interested As well our hc Use case development team led by our rice chair erica beer bower Continues to to work on use case development as they relate to black chain technologies The the the premise behind this use case team is to develop a a set of consistent use cases that define some of the the various features, uh, and uh, and functionality around a specific black chain technology Availabilities or functionalities that are unique to black chain and this really came out of One of the him's meetings that i i participated it participated in i guess it's now in a couple years And quite a number of folks that asked, uh, if uh, if we provided use cases So they have a bit so they had a better opportunity to understand where the the real value in black chain technologies align so So the idea for this is to develop sort of a library of of consistent use cases that we could use to distribute And obviously post here But get the message out about where the sort of sweet spot of of black chain technology happen to be as it relates to dlt's and you know digital credentialing and And I'm losing my mind here And and currency or tokens So so that's kind of the idea behind it. Uh, and this has been something that actually wendy, uh, you set up Oh gosh, probably about six months. Maybe a year ago or so. Did you want a year ago? Yeah, did you want to talk a little bit about it? This is something that you and I put together Absolutely. I'm sure so some additional considerations or that Um, remember how judith falkner talks about epic. Um, and how she describes epic She says that she sells epic to the business office And in using that mindset, it's really important to write these use cases so that a broader audience can understand And that the business office could see the value proposition behind the use case So, um while we tend to focus on some of the technical issues It's really important to make sure that it's written broadly For a broader audience that can really understand and appreciate And another consideration is that it's important for there to be appropriate attribution To source information. So when we first designed this use case group We recognized that there is a developing body of academic literature that can provide support for many of the conclusions that we are making And because this is a healthcare special interest group Um, remember that healthcare organizations like academic medical centers tend to focus on empirical evidence And while empirical evidence is still growing There is again a body of literature developing and in order to be credible to these academic sources We really need to cite academic literature for some of the claims and it will be much better received So the goal is to design a document that was three to five pages I think we decided that the sweet spot was like four to five pages. So it was short enough to digest and Really impactful about the value and credibility Yeah, yeah, exactly. Uh, and that's that's that's a great sort of way to summarize it wendy The idea is this needs to be communicated elegant eloquently. He's very succinctly very crisply In a way that really puts it puts emphasis on, uh, you know, the value add of blockchain technology specifically So, uh, yes and now that I work for a blockchain company I have learned That we need to tailor the message to the audience Go go go ahead Ravish. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead rich. I just wanted to um, you know, kind of echo What wendy was talking about and that's that's one reason why you know, one of the things that We are also doing is to showcase that um, you know Leveraging some of these low court platforms integrating with the blockchain and giving the business user the power to think through in terms of use cases because What is happening is, um, you know, when you talk about blockchain, you you know, your business tends to More think of developers than They have the ability to think through this problem also and not just Burry themselves down into the technology, you know, but even at a business level And the ability that we can create in the community for them to try out Certain things themselves will actually help with the adoption and and that's something that i'm i'm focused on as well um to Provide this ability to you know leverage some of these platforms and integrate with fabric or saw tooth and showcase You know, if I have to do a prototype, I don't need to really spend a lot of time Getting all these developers can I at a business level can I show a prototype very quickly? I think those things are very important for business to think because they themselves don't even if we explain it to them They will still don't know what business problem. They should solve that mapping of the business problem and the blockchain capability That gap is what has to be filled and they that can be filled by virtue of You know trials and prototypes and whatnot that will help them clarify their business model and business use case I mean, that's just my two cents. That's so awesome. And I'll add one more thing As I work with clients we talk to them about how to calculate their return on investment And for some of the established clients that we have We are able to describe Their return on investment to other future clients and it's a really powerful and impactful message as part of the use case Yeah, that's an excellent point wendy and thanks for that. Thanks also ravish Yeah, and it really does go to the business case and so and I think to wendy's point. It's been very interesting over the past few years Uh, I certainly in the healthcare space And I think we've talked about this before at a much broader level Because healthcare is so closely weighted to academia. There there is sort of an expectation of how New technology gets integrated into sort of the the mindset Of the industry and so it is a much more What's a good way more much more formal approach that we need to be sensitive to because that's the expectation I think uh, jonathan, uh, you work in the healthcare world.  Is this And I've been in academia. So I was on faculty at stanford. Yeah Yeah, two startup companies Yeah, so so feel free to sort of weigh in on this point and and you know, that's sort of the takeaway that that wendy provided Yeah, I mean certainly um, so in academia, especially in medical informatics. I'm also a geneticist as well as being Board certified in medical informatics informatics And so yeah, so definitely I think there is a the academic necessity I guess for Research discovery and I think that's always intrinsic in the healthcare delivery model. I think and certainly when I was at Vanderbilt It's even actually baked into the consent process. I was on the bioethics IRB board and we actually had Vanderbilt actually He would sign the consent to treat The first paragraph actually describes Acknowledging that you are participating in research This is a research organization and the data derived from your care It will be used for knowledge discovery and it's really this concept of a learning healthcare system where we learn from every single patient who we Treat and that goes into a larger pool. I think the challenge is is ultimately in in healthcare Is how do you facilitate knowledge discovery and dissemination of new knowledge? With this idea of competition in healthcare is healthcare systems and and also like I've actually so Judy Faulkner actually came to Vanderbilt when Vanderbilt decided to go with epic and there was a Whole discussion about data blocking and so I think it's and I think her point was that Epics and and cerners of the world aren't where the data blocking happens Data blocking happens at competitive healthcare organizations That don't want you to go to their competitor down the street. And so I think it's Really the sense of how can we have our cake and eat it too? How can we have knowledge discovery and disseminate that knowledge discovery? Among academic institutions and yet be competitive and that's I think the challenge Yeah, that's a really good insight and and so I do I'm currently doing some work with Providence Health, which is here in the Pacific Northwest And from a provider's point of view the the data that data backend is is absolutely valued In fact, it's it's interesting and I'll just talk sort of separate from Providence That my observation between the provider payer industry is it's always a sort of a tug of war In terms of who wants access to the data and to what extent? And I'll just I'll speak again at a very general level Payers always look to to find ways to gather more data that they they can on the patient population Providers are very in some ways resistant to that and again to your point Jonathan It seems to be the case that the the emphasis right now is on the value of that data And it's sequestered as a result It's treasured maybe is a better way to put it And maybe that needs a change going forward so that we can think more in terms of The sharing of the information my my focus is on interoperability And so there are certainly technologies that enable that But it's in sort of an ongoing issue of discovery. In fact, I was on a call yesterday with What we call here in the u.s. The blues blue cross booth shield organizations and and the really discussion Continues to circulate around how do we share information? in a secure way And in a way that all parties feel as if they have some level of engagement And still are able to protect information that to them is ip But it's interesting because it mirrors actually this idea of the linux foundation So actually where you do actually have a lot of contributors Either people writing code for open source software, but yet the some of the end users are competitors and so there really is a very similar model of of of How the linux foundation is is organized where we have Collaborators come together for the greater good for the ecosystem and yet we all can compete in our own niche And so there's a very interesting balance in ecosystem there. Oh, yeah, that's a great. That's a great model jonathan. Yeah Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Um, I think uh, and again This is maybe just a sort of history of the organization of the industry of health care Uh, I think there's it seems to be that there's more to that sort of discovery happening now Where the notion of community sharing Community best practices is is just seems to be getting Sort of started maybe, you know, maybe it's getting emulated By virtue of the fact that we have, you know, an open source model that's out there that it seems to work Just fine and and yeah, and so to your point that that may be a certainly a valid observation so So thanks for that discussion. I think we did we did erica a great service. I'm I'm talking around this Thanks, wendy for adding your your sort of history on Use case team So that is that is ongoing work that erica is driving forward on They're meeting ad hoc at the moment And I do know she's working with a couple of folks right now on some active use cases But if you do have interest feel free to contact myself or orca and and get yourself involved in that Will probably be extending Open invitations to membership Sort of moving forward as as that team builds up because it looks like they're going to need some more help going forward. So So anyway, great conversation. Thanks for that. I appreciate it Anything else before I move forward Already and good. Good morning Guillermo. Uh, how are you? Hello, hi rich. How are you? Sorry? I just almost missed this call Oh, good. Good to have you on the call. Uh, how's everything in mexico? Oh, oh, it's pretty good. It's a getting traction. We are going to Present the latin american regional cluster in Next the wednesday and in mexico. We are moving forward with the meetups Thank you very much for asking. Oh good. Glad glad to hear that So for those, I think everybody on the call probably knows Guillermo presented early on and during our special topic meetings and so Thanks, Guillermo for that and and we keep in touch and so Best of luck going forward with meetups as well Okay, so let's get to some unfinished business. We were just talking about the covid virus And in fact that really obviously continues to be an issue. So I didn't want to overlook that entirely First of all, thank you to everyone and including Guillermo Who we were just speaking with For his participation over the past few months as I said earlier I think it's we started this in in march And we just finished up. I think we had seven or eight different sessions that we had set aside That focused specifically on the topic of the covid 19 virus pandemic Some some really amazing work happened. I think as well. We got some excellent Very very unique insight. In fact, I share this information regularly With people that I speak with in the healthcare industry as it relates to perspectives that we learned As as a team here At a global level about how the virus has been managed It's interesting. I'm I'm I'm imagining I think it was a comment that Dennis made early early on as well That relates to how different countries And in many ways those countries represent cultures I have have really treated the the the pandemic differently and as a result aspects of that Virus have really influenced those countries very differently In in many ways. And so we're always sensitive to that as developers of solutions That one one size doesn't necessarily fit all and so Thanks everyone for your help for your insight on that I have gotten quite a number of thank yous Regarding that the value to that so thanks everyone. It really goes to to your your work And continue effort in solving some of these bigger issues and so again We certainly don't overlook that going forward. And and thank you. It's really been a great experience So to that extent I'm going to continue to have sort of a set aside here in our general meetings We may be going back to special topic meetings if if we have Events that will drive that But I wanted to sort of bring up again some of the some of the some funding support that we continue to monitor From around the world and for anyone that can take advantage of these funding opportunities. It'd be great to do so I'm not going to walk these necessarily one by one But I did want to call on a couple of things And I do update this stuff regularly and you'll see somewhere the updates go Typically the updates are either to the site, which means that something has happened recently on the site And so I'll note that Some of the updates on some of these sites Really kind of ended at one point and there really hasn't been any additional information the information is still According to that site relevant So even though you may see something that suggests that something happened while I'm looking at the nci for example update was on March 27 Uh, there really hasn't been any news on that site Regarding that but that those opportunities still exist And for that specific specific call out. These are spirs sttr's Really more for small businesses And small businesses to work with with academic institutions and this is within the u.s For funding around the around the world We do have grant opportunities in that section and then I call out Canada because we had a canadian Member that wanted to get that information posted as well I did want to call out specifically two things through the robberwood johnson foundation I participated in some of these events in the past. It's a great organization to get involved in And the deadline happens to be today Later tonight So nine o'clock pacific time Well, actually a one minute before nine o'clock pacific time And so I want to just call these out very quickly. You can sort of infer That they aren't covet specific, but you can kind of guess that they're really all about covet and so So we got two separate events here. They're somewhat similar and related And I believe They are open to everyone and they are global and so you may want to take a take a look at that But the flag for that is that the deadline is end of day today So and then like I said the rest of these we can walk through I the other call out I guess I would make his uc davis office of research continues to do a great job of summarizing at a high level for resource for funding At a much broader level across multiple organizations Okay, any any discussion around covet has anyone been doing any work with the covet virus? solutions Development anything to that order that that you'd like to bring up Jonathan you should talk about your hackathon Um, I did actually I think I had last the last call two weeks ago. We actually had a very successful hackathon stop covet 19 sponsored by A consensus health and we also had a hyper ledger And we actually had our esteemed colleague brine bellendorf as being one of the judges as well as spitolic uterine Joe lubin Myself debi buchi We had some phenomenal submissions. We had over 500 participants 50 to 100 mentors Who helped out the use cases? In the end we had I believe it was 30 or so submissions Five to six of those went to the final round and we had three great submissions The winning team was called d plasma which talked about convalescence plasma. So donation of plasma to Fight covet 19 aka like from the movie contagion was actually like it's sort of like the driving We had some interesting immunity credentials submissions Although I think I'm sure if that actually made it to the final three You know the the challenge is I'm heavily involved in the immunity credentials is this idea of immunity passport And that's the use case we've been driving in the IEEE healthcare identity working group that I'm involved in and I think the what I struggle with is that It's not like this binary yes or no that you're actually immune either by exposure or by vaccination It really is a system that how do you use that credential to for us to learn the efficacy of the Immunization or vaccine or how effective or efficient is this vaccine or your antibody test Over time so again, it goes into this idea of the learning healthcare model is actually it's not binary Yes, I can go out of my house and leave and and go out and live my life and go to restaurants It really is like how do we actually have a reporting mechanism? So actually we as a society can learn from that data But I think the hackathon And I think a few of you on the call including Brian know that I've actually participated in or ran about five or six hackathons now And I think it's a a really great outlet a mechanism for really the mindset of approaching This that I'm not going to be a idle bystander Without any skills. I'm going to use my skills to change the world Excellent well good. Thanks for that Jonathan and Great to hear that you had that that meant many number that that number of folks involved So fantastic and and great to hear that Is there any sort of follow-up or traceability to this? Is there do you guys sort of Put I don't know I'm trying to think of emphasis or spotlights on on those the winners And is there a way we can sort of learn more about what the what the winning teams are doing or how to Sort of track their success. Yeah, we've been engaging those teams In fact, I think we have ongoing discussions with them on this coming Monday, but there will be I think hopefully a recorded session when they represent on Next week on Thursday the 18th. I'm not sure if that's going to be public or indoor recorded But I will let you know On our next call Ideally actually what's the follow-up would be I think certainly it's you know Some of these is really trying to figure out is their legs for commercialization and how I They can actually take their their Solution and run with it. I think you know the some of the teams are actually already doing this I think the second runner-up actually was then 3d printing of PPE and face masks And they're from Greece and they're already engaged in the community with Movingness with the solution to commercialization So I think that's really Exciting because actually it's really where the problem is the road actually they are not staying idle. They're using their technology to Help in this crisis And I think the the third team was a decentralized pandemic reserve and there was really about how do we create smart contracts to incentivize the the creating of reserve of PPE and how do we actually form hospital correlate co collaborations to actually to Create contracts for supply chain management and this mirrors what actually what happened in different states the states actually had to compete Yeah, yeah, so how do we actually create contracts to actually so we're all in it together and we actually can You know, let's say I have 20 ventilators and you'd need Some ventilators how do we put those into a contract and and negotiate? The supply chain of and the reservation of those those when so we can scale up when we need them Oh, excellent. So if you think it's appropriate Jonathan, it'd be great if we might be able to have Some of those folks come and speak here in this forum With hc sig membership that that if possible that would be great if we could do that Yeah, sure. Actually, I'm talking to them on monday. So I'll I'll see if that's possible Yeah, the blood plasma team Trying to you know match donors to to receivers for anybody laid in blood I think in particular it'd be one worth talking about here I think one thing they're trying to wrestle with the bit is the public versus private Blockchain as you know, which is would be would be a better fit for what they do But I think they're probably closer than the other two and actually operationalizing what they've built And maybe not there. I haven't followed up with the other two, but I did talk with juliana those process who's the The one of the leaders behind the the blood plasma project and I think it'd be Interesting topic for us here Yeah, yeah, that'd be great. Uh, yeah, jonathan if if if you can maybe do a little due diligence and see if it's if it's possible If it's legal anything to that extent it'd be great. Yeah, it'd be great if we can find a way to Get that in front of membership. I think that would be great. Thank you Thank you And I think you know as I mentioned before on on the calls into brian was that really it's it's a sense of interoperability, you know, it's uh, you certainly we focused on the ethereum Blockchain because that's what the company that worked for is involved in but you know, it's not about excluding this It's and it's certainly it's about the ecosystem and how actually we can interoperate with all existing and truly this idea of a hyper ledger Approach Yeah, yeah, exactly and and brian you'll have to cover your ears But I think generally speaking membership here for hc sig still tends to be fairly platform agnostic I think we're we're mostly in still in a sort of education mode. Whenever we do our surveys We we we sort of get a kind of a sense for where the where the sensitivity goes on that and and still We really don't have really divisions real strong divisions It really is a more of a community approach to making use of the technology suite to the extent that they can And and really the distinction is is really at a very very high level I think brian to your point Private versus public and in healthcare. I think the tendency goes to private But platforms I think generally most most folks I think generally are still somewhat platform agnostic and it's really about education and learning And no covering of yours needed here Okay And I also mentioned that we actually like their hyper ladder bezu is actually contributed by consensus and that's the ethereum Oh, yeah, excellent point. Yeah Absolutely a good point and I have one more question for john and john if he's comfortable without just playing off He you had mentioned you're staying pretty close to some of the the credentialing Work related to kovat credentialing and such There's the kovat kres initiative and I think I saw somebody mentioned another Kind of a proto standards kind of governance things starting up as well What what is the right place for people to apply their their time or their interest? in this in this space To be helpful on this front or to see where the the Directions are heading. Yeah, I think I'm struggling with the kovat cred's initiative I certainly I signed up for the email and suddenly there was a press release that consensus health is a contributor And so I was a little bit taken back by that because I don't understand the IPR protection of this pseudo Like initiative of the kovat credentials and I think it's I'm certainly much more comfortable in the space of the w3c working groups That's did in the very public credentials working groups And then the certainly hyper ledger with project gary's and In ursa where we're actually working out some of the cryptographic their Interoperability but really at the at the end of the day It's really about the semantic interoperability that I struggle with which is that how can someone in let's say, you know Berlin germany get vaccinated fly to the us and present that credential to the at the border And verify the governance and the trust model that that physician is credentialed and has the authority to actually issue that credential And how do we do that across languages? So the overlay capture network, which is what paul knows Is presented he's from the human colossal foundation and and they've presented But there is some IP issues that I have reservations about about that approach and I think I'm much more comfortable bringing those under A project under like I'd say hyper ledger Aries and or the w3c It's certainly I you know It's these things take time and I think I'm I'm concerned about this rush to ram these standards through the development process That we don't have it sufficiently vetted Or that we've it's it's half hazard And they don't really solve the real problem we're trying to solve and I think it and it's it's rushing that standard and where that's It's piecemeal and then it in the end it falls apart because we didn't give enough due diligence to either the Cryptographic interoperability or the semantic interoperability or we've actually allowed to submarine batten to infiltrate the process Yeah No, okay, and then are there any other efforts than cci? Um Worth tracking any other kind of standards conversations about this at w3c or or elsewhere. Yeah, so we're consistent south We're involved in the in the m covet. So this is a mitre corporation And the male clinic and so we meet once a week With mostly about the data sets that coming out of out of this and actually how do we share Datasets to actually do federated analytics and to learn from this. There aren't very many Let's just say blockchain solutions to this. Um, certainly as we're involved. We actually are trying to change that that's Certainly, you know me a clinic on john Halcoma is used to be at the at harvard and the cio of harvard and has deep expertise in In medical informatics approaches to the data analytics You know, certainly there's ample opportunity for this to be help to be automated with blockchain solutions. And yet that's Um, still it's still hard to penetrate that as healthcare tends to be slow to adopt these newer technologies Okay And i'll in the line of questioning. Thank you john. I didn't mean to put you on the spot No worries. Um, I just wanted to mention for the rest of the um working group. There, uh, there is a rest of the sick There is something that we're brewing here at the linux foundation. We're not public with yet, but um, I it's It touches on the credentialing perhaps as a mid to long term thing, but the earlier kind of Reason for it is is a contact tracing and exposure notification. Um, there's just this Looming disaster we see perhaps others are seeing in in the apps that are being released by the public health authorities For for contact tracing. Anyway, I mean disaster It means I mean somewhat, you know a lack of trust amongst the population in these apps And a lot of them are, you know, even if they say decentralized or are trying to Put things kind of behind the scenes that would kind of compromise Whatever those promises might be of privacy and confidentiality that sort of thing. So I putting together a public health initiative kind of focused on on those apps But also on helping scale the tooling that public health authorities would use for contact tracing Don't want to say much more not much more to say But there are some partners aligning around that and and we're looking at a launch in the next three weeks or so That's all flexible if anyone is is spending a lot of their time on contact tracing now Or is connected to organizations that are I I think we're coming up with a really good model to scale this out. So Please follow up with me privately and I'm happy to to share more And I would be also be remiss if I didn't mention the trust over IP stack So which is coming out of the the as a joint development project from the the Linux foundation I think that is where the The synergy of the decentralized identifier is verifiable credentials as well as the policy and trust frameworks the governance frameworks Actually build into the organizational infrastructure that actually allows this technology to meet governance Yeah, and in particular with that If If identity is something that people are really interested in around this stuff There's a white paper that the foundation has published It's kind of the introduction to the concept and there's kind of four layers of governance The topmost layer of which is how do you pull together? The you know parties to agree on issuing credentials and verifying those credentials at a semantic level at a you know Here's the the clinics. Here's the doctors. Here's the places where you prove those credentials are valid And that happens at a level entirely different from the utility network things like sovereign or Uh, you know other other kind of uh, even the ethereum network, right? That can be used as your key management store and then there's a couple intervene, you know layers in between that But it tries to put this kind of conceptual model together And then what we see coming out of that is it serves as a skeleton for new governance organizations at those different layers And so this is where I was asking about cci and if there's other groups that we might want to be connected with To potentially be a governance organization at those those upper layers of the toy stack Jonathan, I thought you made a great point earlier when you talked about The example you gave of you know somebody getting a Vaccination in germany flying to the u.s. Kind of a thing What that that use case hits is the concept to me of sustainable trust It's not at the transaction level It's all quote the long-term trusted relationships of all those different parties which very much is a healthcare problem Um In the healthcare network and that's where that whole trust over ip idea with the different governance layers And you made the point that rather than rush into the what I call a technical solution The right idea is let's get governance right and understand what that should be for the use case first And then from there you can easily say okay This is the way we need to build out an architect the actual solution But getting a quote a long-term governance model. It's going to be sustainable To keep I'll call it the trust And improve it if you will over time in the network is Maybe the biggest challenge of all Yeah, and I'll spend time that's not so many we talk about in the working groups Is that we talk about the technology and we get these things to validate But the the real question is why would I trust the certificate? But what's this? What's the chain of trust and and I think that in a decentralized solution is is hard to wrap our minds around And because we we have this idea of this pillar of this hierarchy of a certificate authority of I Trusted because it's issued by this organization But it's really going to be difficult to see how let's say your your driver's license Is like the government is going to issue a driver's license anytime soon under a cryptographic Verifyable credential and I think it really would be like a distributed trust model at first and and really my I'm a verifier and I know the issuer And but how do we extend that across borders and I think it's great This is going to be a topic. I'll be on this panel the un in September talking about the merger of Technology healthcare and governance and this is exactly the my point was we need to Merge all those those three in order for it to be successful Yeah, and so tied to governments really is what I call behind that in a sense that trust model Is really what I call the authority? Where is the authority coming from the source of authority for that trust? And in some cases it's declarative like I'm you know the state governor of Rhode Island So I can declare whatever I want because I'm the legal entity here But in other cases it's reputational as well. So depending upon well, especially a healthcare network There's a combination of different types of authority that would be the source of trust for governance for sure Yeah, and it really would be this idea of trust but verify and Or the combination of de-centralized solutions and yet there's an anchor of trust in like this trust over IP This is the governance model. Yeah Well, uh, so we are coming up to the top of your hour Thanks, everyone. Uh, so uh, just as a reminder Our next meeting is in two weeks same time same place. So thanks for that Excellent conversation today. Thanks very much for your participation and Looking forward to catching up with everyone in two weeks Uh, Ravish, I'll I'll loop back around with you with an email so we can get you scheduled for the payer subgroup That said, uh, everyone have a great day. Have a great weekend and please stay safe. Thanks all Thank you


It's in the right bag. I don't want to walk by myself. Overhaul complete. Requesting de-smoking and de-watering on scene.