All right, thank you very much and actually before I jump in I wanted to So say a big thanks to cool deep and the organizing team here today and over the last couple of days The interesting story for me is actually came to Singapore the first time for five years ago for the first UX conference in the region and The event then was really important as a place to come and exchange ideas and to connect with people And I think nothing has changed. It's still really really important. So I think for my side just a big thanks for Hosting this and and creating this the space for us to exchange thoughts. It's a really important So before I jump in I'll talk today a little bit about Yes, we're talking about UX skills both for today and for the future My intent for today is really to give you some food for thought I don't have the answers But I do have some questions that I would like to leave you with and then that you can start to think about in the Next coming weeks and months and years So as I let I'm currently working for a Siam commercial bank. So Actually, it's the first bank started in Thailand to my knowledge It's a hundred and fifteen or a hundred seventeen years old and if you haven't guessed it's the purple one So if you're ever visiting Thailand easy to recognize there's a big green one There's a big blue one and there's a big purple one Previously just a quick intro I actually worked across a bunch of different domains So a couple of banks in the UK like HSBC and Lloyds Banking Group More recently. I was actually working at Lazada in a regional role here in Vietnam Thailand and Singapore as well So just want to do a quick show of hands in the audience. So do we have anyone here? Maybe from a product owner business analyst product manager kind of background a couple How many here are more visual design or UI design? Okay, a few more and who is here in a UX design or interaction design type of role? All right Interesting. So of course as we go through the conversation today, I think different things will apply to different people in different roles But it's great to get to know you so I actually wanted to take a step back a little bit and then say okay Well, actually where did our practice come from? What were the origins and we saw a little bit yesterday already from one of our other speakers from DBS too? So this year one of the very early cockpits from a fighter plane So actually it's a it's a plane from 1937 right pretty How would you describe the interface? Would you say it's easy simple complex overwhelming summer in the middle? This year can anyone guess what this might be ATM correct the first ATM withdrawal in 1967 long before my time Was a big shift for for a lot of the the banks of course at the time right and and again the automation process already started to happen back then This third one we saw yesterday as well. So one of the first graphical user interfaces, right? The Xerx Alto and Xerx star really pioneering devices from the 70s and 80s And you might be wondering why am I talking about these three pictures? Well, I think it's it's sort of a bit of our understanding our role as designers and UX professionals so I Love technology. I'm really passionate about technology But when I look back and I started to do a bit more research. I mean you start to see that actually a lot of Innovation it's as much as we love design maybe first and technology second in some cases a lot of innovation Really driven by the tech right and design follows suit. So the reason I bring this up is Design really originated and you actually started to originate in these three areas because there are some key business problems That needed to be solved right in the case of aviation The training cost for getting a pilot capable of flying a plane We're extraordinarily high and today still are actually extraordinarily high because of the safety implications because of the complexity of the interface On the other hand on the consumer space with ATMs Getting people out of the habit of going into a branch and talking to a human and actually just self-servicing themselves with the machine Again, it's a behavioral challenge and there's some usability complexities there So getting that learning curve down making it more accessible more usable makes business sense, right? And lastly same with The graphical user interface so in order to make computers accessible That means moving away from command-line interfaces and more towards graphical easy to use devices So I think there is there's tons of people from different backgrounds in the field of UX And really what I tend to see most commonly But it's not an exclusive list of courses people either come from the technology computer science side Maybe from a business analysis side from an industrial product design side or something from psychology, right? And that creates a really interesting place for us to practice and learn from different perspectives But then how do we define UX design? Well, I think it depends on who you ask, right? So never-ending debate in our inner industry I think this is a I love pyramids if you ask anyone in my team. I really love a good pyramid This is a hierarchy of kind of design considerations and what we'll see quite often is Us designers. We love being at the top of that pyramid, right? We love the micro interactions. We love the attention to detail the polish and everything else Businesses are often a bit more towards the bottom of that pyramid. I think you know talking about the 80-20 rule this morning The cost for businesses is probably more towards the bottom But us as designers that are really passionate about our craft really love that top as well But before I dive too deep into the never-ending debate about how we define our practice I actually want to take a little bit of a sidestep and Talk about something else that's been happening in our landscape when it relates to jobs and skills so I Did a little bit of research and I think we're all pretty familiar with the media industry and the transformation It's gone through but a quick quick recap So in the year 517 monks were doing a lot of hand transcribing of manuscripts and documents and The information I found was that they could produce one impression per hour Which is roughly equivalent to one page per hour. So that's the volume that they could actually produce, right? Fast forward to the printing press in 1439. We move up to 240 impressions per hour Quite a quite a dramatic leap in terms of production and information gathering Then we come into mass production mass mass publishing in the 1930s 2500 impressions per hour up until 18,000 impression per hour. So again massive massive leaps forward But of course, I think we all know nothing compares to the power of the internet Which for all intents and purposes because it's unlimited self-publishing power, right? You almost can't quantify it But I tried so there's a little bit of digging According to to IDC they're saying okay, we're producing eight zeta bytes of information every year now Which is just unfathomable On the other side, I think we also know that the print revenues are not doing that great Most of the publishers traditional publishers have been struggling, right? Their ad revenue is down even their online revenue is a fraction of what it used to be So inevitably there's a decline in a number of newspaper firms, right? I think we've all seen this happening in recent years So what does that what does that mean? Why did that happen? Well on one hand technology creates this power to disrupt It removes the shackles and the limitations, right? Also consumer behavior changed I don't know. I don't know how it's here in Singapore But if I look at my parents my parents were the generation that would get their newsletter in paper form every week read it back to front Nowadays, I think the younger generations consume media in a different way, right? It's short articles. It's on the go It's in your pocket slightly slightly different and Clicks and traffic have become a new editor for us, right? Previously editors in the newspaper industry had a lot of power a lot of control Now as businesses need to seek revenues The clicks to traffic Become much more of a guiding force as well. So What does that mean for the skills that were involved in In the industry and how did that change? well What happened to the monks the monks that were publishing manuscripts back in the day Where did they go right or what happened to the printing press operators the machinists the typesetters? Where did they go? recently saw a documentary That there is one last operating typesetter in the US basically a two-man shop Out of pure passion not commercial enterprise And I think if any of us have maybe friends or family that work in the publishing industry I think we'll also see a journalist and photographers their jobs have also changed over the years, right? Personally, I've got some friends that used to be photographers and other photographers and videographers and writers Doing kind of all three wearing three hats at a time So it's undergone really really rapid change So back to the topic at hand. Why am I talking about the media industry and how does it relate to UX design? Well, we find ourselves somewhere along this curve of technological acceleration So I think you know starting with the printing press down here on the left side Moving into AI and all sorts of fancy incredible stuff up there on the curve I think sometimes for me the industry feels like it's a bit slow and I'm sure well We've been talking about AI for 10 years. Is it really great? Maybe Maybe not yet, but nonetheless, I think actually when you step take a step back The pace is much much faster than it was in previous generations So Where does it leave us a little bit of digging again from my side in relation to specifically to UX and design so The first web analytics 1998 from what I can gather Of course data as we've been talking about in the last two days both qualitative and quantitative play a big part of our toolkit And so yeah first web analytics 1998 The first the first a B test that was thought to be conducted was by Google in 1999 So it's already been quite a while And this is in no real sequence, but just for illustration purposes We're just talking about design patterns and templates and multivariate testing again Lots of toolkits that are evolving very very rapidly that directly impact the way we we work as professionals templates and web frameworks prototyping tools artificial intelligence and I think maybe in relation to the question just in the session earlier There's a very interesting concepts that's evolving called evolutionary a B testing There are actually some functioning tools like this what it really means is in an a B test the human says I want to test option a against option B and see which one performs best right With evolutionary B testing the system decides, okay, let me run an experiment change the color of a button Let me move a link around from left to right. Let me change some other stuff And I can do it on the fly rapidly in quick succession without any human intervention Which is on one hand super interesting and cool because it can outpace us and be much faster and more innovative But it's also weird because then we're not in the driving seat, right? And what is the role of the UX designer then if itself? If it's basically self-conscious about what it wants to design and test and what's next, you know We're in 2018 now in 2020 28 2038 what does the landscape look like what to those tools look like what does our practice look like right? Going a little bit further yet. So Today we have lots of wonderful tools available to us so from Apple's human interface guidelines to material design and all sorts of other kind of pattern library websites and tools fantastic resource We've got our tools like Azure sketch Adobe XD They're rapidly evolving lots of new features better workflows every month every year that we go on We've got prototyping right framer or vision or principal and of course We've got developer handoff tools like zeppelin and avoco that are starting to move into this realm of design systems So we can integrate much more easily between development and design in UX So again, what's really happening here? There are some tools that are basically aimed at conceptualization and helping people conceptualize new ideas new solutions And on the other hand there's communication tools, right? How do we explain our artifacts to other people product owners developers and so on? And of course there are tools such as envision that are actually starting to spread across this entire spectrum Which greatly greatly impacts actually what we do Wondering any show of hands who's used square square space or wicks or any of those kind of platforms quite a few people How was your experience good bad good raise your hand easy? Yeah, yeah pretty easy The question the question for me here is when it comes to UX design, right? It's really about problem solving for a specific client in a specific moment in time a specific problem, right? So Something like square space does it solve the super bespoke needs of a large enterprise? Maybe not maybe not yet But does it does it suffice for a small independent little shop that wants to get their name out there That wants to have a sort of a digital name card of sorts That people can find them get some basic information I'd probably say yes, it's a pretty damn good and it's pretty cheap and effective, right? They don't need to rely on that many experts or Build up a contract with an agency or a vendor or anything They can just hop on but in their credit card do a free trial drag some stuff around publish And I'll look look pretty good right pretty good It's not bespoke So I think that leaves me to my next question Which is where do you work and what kind of organization do you work? If you work in a maybe a small startup or a small organization or an SME Your company may have different needs when it comes to UX and design then a large corporate that has very detailed unique requirements and What does your company actually look like so I think this is um? Just a simple illustration of a UX maturity model, right? So I think on the bottom we've got basically UX is not recognized It basically does not exist All the way to the top which is where we would all aspire to be So it's embedded in the organization Everyone's practicing it breathing it up from CEO and senior management and so on But again the way that UX looks like in different organizations It depends a bit on this depends on where you are and I think this just to illustrate as well These structure of organizations and businesses and their maturity in their overall journey also shapes our practice So what is this? This is just a basic illustration. I think when I think back to my time when I used to work in London Back in the early days of digital Digital teams including UX and product owners. They really used to be this bolt-on on the outside of the company Oh, we've got this digital team, too. Yeah, they're sort of sat over there in the corner. We talked to them once in a while That's that's starting to change, right? So we were sort of the outsider Nowadays thankfully a lot of us work in organizations where digital is really front and center Either working a tech startup or working for a larger traditional organization that has started to build the capabilities the school This the tools the skill sets So we have a seat at the table In terms of our skill set though, what does that mean as well? so When I think about skill sets, I think in in hard skills and soft skills So hard skills being okay, of course the prototyping the methodology the research tools we use our approach, etc But we also have our soft skills, right depending on your organization depending on your seniority The mix of hard and soft actually becomes pretty important Right and it might actually shift balance as you progress in your career and as you change from different company to different company So in some companies it might look more like 50-50 and so it might look more like 80-20 Little story From my my last role with with Lazada and Alibaba actually There's a few people here in the room in case you want to get an inside scoop So we had a during the last last couple of six months at my time at Lazada We had a very interesting collaboration with with Alibaba on a very special technical project The reason why it's quite interesting for me is You know, I come from a background where I learned the kind of the textbook UX process, right? user-centered design from start to end and Then I I run into Alibaba's process and it looks a bit different So I think Organizational culture within Alibaba is really speed is everything Speed is absolutely everything. So The mindset at Alibaba was a little bit if I simplify a little bit towards Don't plan too much. Just start start working start designing start building will test and measure We'll do it so quickly that in two months will have tested 10 variations and we have a working function It's a very different mindset than the classical UX approach Does it work? It seems so seems so Lastly I've been speaking about design and UX in a bit of a general sense, but of course when it comes to skills But let's be specific, right? So we have user research. We have UX design. We have visual design service design You could say as well Again depending on which role you're in You might have some different different steps to take So let's talk about defining our value, right? What role do we play and How is that going to change? Well Again, where did we start we started back there? Working on cockpits and automation machines and making machines more accessible to the first graph for user interfaces to the iPhone That's the past 30 40 years Right now we're somewhere closer towards this space All right, most of our bread and butter is still in web and apps But we're getting closer and closer to voice to augmented reality to virtual reality Which also begs the question right if we're today spending a lot of time doing research, but also I Think let's face it. We spend a lot of time doing wireframes prototypes testing those What does that look like in a voice world? What does that look like in an augmented reality world? What does it look like in a driverless car world where there may still be UX requirements? But the output is something completely different There is a fantastic concept out there Mark Weisser in 19 in the 1970s So the grandfather ubiquitous computing I would highly encourage you to look it up and do some reading. It's very very fascinating stuff The way that he talks about ubiquitous computing is is sort of it's his philosophy I don't know if it really applies to everyone or if it's a universal value But he says technologies at its best when it disappears into the fabric of our everyday lives Right, which kind of suggests that more buttons more devices isn't necessarily what people really want But people just want to get their stuff done more easily more quickly more conveniently and today that looks like more devices more buttons more screens, but 10 years later 20 years later. Is that still the case? We'll have to see Next so we talk about voice we talked about AR Tangible user interfaces or two is also quite interesting We're starting to see more experimentation like this in real-world applications today. I Believe LG and Google have released a phone where you can squeeze the sides to perform a certain gesture or action But more I want to focus on the concept of bounded rationality Which is basically a fancy psychologist way to say What we know is limited by what we know therefore the predictions we try to make Are of course ever going to encompass every option and every possibility so Because we've been talking about chatbots a little bit too. I thought okay, maybe let me Let me let me make a little bit of an experiment. Let me see if I can build a little chatbot for this session So I'm hoping the internet still works and we can do a little bit of a play All right, let's let's give this a go Let's get started So what is your job? We've got a couple of options here I'll go with visual designer. I'm feeling I'm being lucky How long have I been working as a visual designer? What shall we say? Let's say let's say one two three Yes, that sounds about right Okay, okay that one of it passed So Just before you get too impressed How long do you think this took to put together? Between let's say between anyone think more than 10 hours No five One this is not the only scenario there are more So actually this is the beauty of technology right it makes tools and Framework so accessible that you can rapidly jump in and experiment and play around So there's some great platforms you can either hand-coded from scratch of course Or you can jump in use a platform and do this in just one or two hours pretty easily With multiple scenarios personalized responses not full AI, but you can actually script quite a lot and do Yeah, I get pretty far So back to our topic at hand Where we should take our aim. I think the one the one guiding principle I want to leave you with is follow the money right today Our money is the bread and butter mobile apps and web, right? That's where businesses really Monetize right voice and all the other stuff is still on the fringes today, but But really follow it right so one two years later five years later ten years later Is it still web and apps or is it something totally different depending on what the answer is? We may need to retrain our focus and our skills to move towards those areas The better you can anticipate those things More likely you're going to be highly relevant and sought after in the market Also think a little bit about the stage that your company is at So are they investing design and technology? Are they increasing cross-department collaboration? Are they engaging in culture change? Those are the types of questions that will also tell you more about The trajectory of your current company Just earlier during lunch. We're discussing with some some fellow colleagues and friends and saying well What's happening to the big tech giants? What's happening to Facebook? Is it still going to be relevant five years later? It seems like they're losing quite a lot of their population and their their active audience from Facebook moving into Instagram But we've been here before right so there was a myspace in the 1992 was huge absolutely huge and it totally vanished All right, that could still happen We talked yesterday with a couple of people around the notion of tea tea shape professionals T-shaped skill sets. I think very very relevant So I think this is I think this is for me one of the key messages I would like to share with you today is really think about where you put your skills today What's an expertise and what's a universally transferable skill right? I think The realm of where we work the companies we work in are changing rapidly But so are the that shows the education and our role in society right in my parents generation Probably in all of our parents generation There was that notion of okay. You go to university you do a bachelor's you do a master's you move into a company you work for 20 30 40 years your turn Right you enjoy your lifestyle Today we're moving towards online education training courses are much more free and accessible But likewise the notion of needing to retrain and top up your education every decade or so is becoming more of an expected Outcome in the next couple of generations So again, what's the domain transferable skill? What's a UX specialist skill? So on the practical side because I don't want to make it too to abstracts. I think Irrespective of your exact title and organization that you're in I think you would do very well to kind of That start dabbling a bit deeper in strategy and business I really understand the business model that you're serving because ultimately that's why we're there as you extra professionals to solve problems Solve problems for the customer so that the business can make money, right? So if you don't understand the business model You might be in a bit of trouble later on Well likewise to be able to talk to the business you need those soft skills But you also need data right data is our tool data is our weapon to say hey This isn't just about objective subjective opinions. This is actually what we found either through user testing Through analytics a be testing. This is what we found therefore. Let's have an informed discussion So I think in an in a nutshell thing the closer we can get to problem solving right and the more we can become Experts in a couple of different of these areas I think the more the more powerful you be in your both in your current role today as well as in the future future world of tomorrow Where where frames and prototypes may be less important? So I think I think it's been a while since we've had a discussion about unicorns and what it means to be a unicorn in our industry but the point I'd like to share is Am I saying that we all need to become unicorns and be a kind of a jack-of-all-trades as per the previous slide? absolutely not but what I do think is this as The tools of our trade evolve and become more powerful With prototyping collaboration and all the other stuff Actually, it frees us up in a way right and allows us to do more Now you could either say well, okay That means we do more wireframes and more prototyping or you could go a bit wider and say well actually maybe I'll learn a bit about data I learned a bit about testing. I learned a bit about strategy or product management to make me a more capable problem solver for the business So I think that's the direction that I would encourage everyone to go and use those tools and those advances to Give you more power more firepower So back to the the media industry that we looked at earlier, right? Someone that was a journalist, but wouldn't pick up a camera. I think today has a tough time Or someone there was a photographer that didn't want to write I think today has a pretty tough time, but those people that took the opportunity of technology and said I'm gonna make it my tool I'm gonna make it my weapon. I'm gonna master a new skill and practice both at a great level. I Think those are the people that are highly relevant today and that have grown their skills and their capabilities tremendously So for me, I think the the future is clearly full of uncertainty in our industry And as anything that touches technology But I also think that the future is not defined. So the choices we make today Next year in the next five years the next ten years will help to shape the path That our industry grows in and that our profession will grow in The UX design of the 1980s and 90s is very very different than it is today and Likewise in 10 20 years from now it will look very different But one thing I do know the world needs problem solvers and that is what we do best So let's get ready and let's let's do let's amp up our skills Let's empower ourselves and each other and the community with the best insights that we we have available Thank you All right, thanks Paul. Do we have any questions from the floor? Anybody who's still worried about their jobs No questions, do you have questions on Slido? Yes, we do So I think it's really really interesting how Paul shared about the skills we need in the future But I think to sum it up in a one-liner I think in the future we just need to be ready to learn and unlearn the skills We already have within the new jobs as the world keeps on changing and our jobs may be changing in the future, right? Perfect. So Okay, so while we wait For the Slido to be up Are you sure there's no questions from the floor? Relief, okay. She's relieved right so The first question on a personal level. What skills do you hope to deepen or widen in 2019? That's a great question I'm practicing a lot of new skills in my current role in SCB So as I said, it's a 117 year old bank Actually pretty modern or pretty modern organizations actually evolved with the Times quite well but personally for me what's really at stake is on one hand I Think the probably my biggest focus would be around The soft skills in terms of management So I actually have the great fortune of working with people just one level below the the bank CEO Which is a bank of 35,000 people. So it's actually it's great access to people To have debates to have discussions about roadmaps future plans and swan But then of course getting them on board or getting them to understand a user-centric vision of the world It's not that easy Right title does not give you the power. You need to earn the power from your peers. So I think for me it's It's still building on that really and then with the cultural differences involved being a very Thai bank as well That's personally for me something something new to learn. Yeah So this is my personal question since before we move on so since you've worked in multiple countries, right? I think Netherlands US Countries across Asia. What do you think of global competence? Like how how important is it? In the actual world, especially in Singapore where like we really have a diverse community. How important is global competence? That's a great question. I think I would say very important The world is getting smaller and smaller because of technology, right? More and more people are traveling more and people are working overseas, but even for people that are not I think our involvement with the rest of the world is bigger And if I look at my team in Thailand in Bangkok for example Although the university system is not really geared up to UX professionals and that kind of specialism that much Courses from Udacity or Coursera are really really readily available And they're not that expensive and it actually changes the ballgame a lot But that does require them to say hey one I speak enough English to be able to access those courses and two I'm open-minded or outward facing enough to learn from the rest of the World and and learn from peers and experts within but also have the outward view. I think both are really really important Okay, so we have more questions on Sido so one Advice for company which UX maturity is unrecognized So if the level top level management, it doesn't really recognize the importance of UX What's your advice to them to the people working in those kind of companies, right? Well to my personal Interpretation of the model unrecognized probably means they don't have a UX rule or perhaps it's a UX person That's kind of wearing multiple hats So maybe it's a business analyst that also wants to do some UX, but there's not a dedicated team yet. I Think for those companies, it's very very early stage I think it depends on the size Maybe if it's a very small if it's a smaller startup say like 20 30 people I think you can help to shape Build the awareness and be that UX team of one and evangelize and bring more awareness build the relationships if it's a larger corporate and you're at the sorry, I lost the word the That that that level where there's a bit less support. I think it's a tough tough call. Yeah So evangelize and get your bosses to know that this is important All right, so on next we have an interesting question as well As head of service design, how would you say design thinking and service design are different or overlapping? When would you choose to use them? Please share an example possible This is the never-ending debate I have with my own team as well, of course oh Well, but even between design thinking and UX design and another interaction design as an industry We love to come up with new terms Frequently, which in some ways is helpful in some ways is confusing for everyone involved Personally I look at I Look at frameworks and methodologies at a conceptual level and I say okay well a lot of them are really about building feedback loops to say hey Try and test something quickly and easily Such as with a wireframe or a prototype right validated either with quantitative or qualitative data Get some results make some changes and repeat at the highest level. That's kind of what we're doing, right? We're doing that in different areas on different platforms in different contexts But that's sort of what we what we're really doing so Yeah, I think for me in terms of let's say service design versus UX it's a Heavy debate within my own team as I have people doing both and it's a young market for doing both I Think coming from London I had the fortune of working with some people from agencies like Fjord very famous service design companies and The way I look at it is really it's a different focus It's a say it's it's roughly the same skill set and mindset Right, it's understanding user needs understanding the business objectives and then going through that process of validation and testing But in the context of for example scb in the bank where I work the service designers are more focused around projects in the branch Where physical environment plays a much more powerful role? right, so if we're redesigning a iPad application where a user a customer can walk up and self-service Some some frequent task It's not just designing the interface and the UX of that interface But it's how do you walk into the branch and how do you know where to go in the branch? And how do we encourage people to move to self-service rather than the counter? And then testing and processing and prototyping that in addition to the actual interface itself yeah, so the choice between UX design or service design depends on the business case and the nature of the business you're in Yeah, correct. I mean to blow it out wire you could argue in some businesses The output of service design may not be a layout or an interface or UX design at all Maybe it's a different proposition or business model But more frequently than not I think it's a bit more tailored down towards those types of outputs So this is a very interesting question with 12 likes so when hiring for UX roles What are the top soft skills you look for in candidates and how important are they in the context of the future of design? Okay, wonderful So for me presentation skills communication skills are are absolutely critical. So Earlier this afternoon there was a mention of of someone called Mike Montero Great guy and they're really really funny really funny guy as well Encourage you to look him up. He has a great talk where he basically goes on a big rant about Him as an agency owner design agency owner What are the things that he looks for in his designers and you know one I kind of one of the things that comes out is a Designer's only worth Their ability to convince a stakeholder of their design in other words if a designer comes up with a beautiful solution But cannot get product owners on board or business analysts on board or senior management on board then really they're Their output is is limited to some to some extent, right? so the people that can take that proactive approach and and Try really hard to pitch their work and to get people bought in is Really I would say in some cases some businesses half of the equation. It's half hard skills and it's half the other soft skills side Okay, I think that's pretty clear Okay, so I wanted to stop but in an interesting question popped up So you were talking about like not so much being jack of all trades like being a unicorn is not so much of being a jack of all Traits, but it's more about like knowing a bit of everything So there's this question based on data or trend will the future need more generalists or specialists? Oh Wow making predictions is always is always tricky I think The easiest answer would probably be both the reason to say both is if I think back to the media industry, right? So again, did journalists or photographers did they go out of business from one day to the next? No, right, but it becomes an increasingly competitive playing field where young graduates or younger professionals are able to To get up to speed and a similar level of competency much faster than previous generations I think the same is true for our profession, right? Access to content before five ten years ago. Yeah, you need to maybe go abroad study a bachelor's or a master's in Europe US or somewhere else spend a lot of money and time today You can sit on your sofa and do Coursera in your evenings even throughout high school, right? Do you don't even need to wait until you finish high school? Which is great and that's gonna empower a huge generation of new people to get smarter and sharper But that means for us that have been in history for a while We need to stay on our toes as well. Make sure we're on the cutting edge, right?  We need to keep investing in ourselves So I think if we become too specialized and the industry shifts Our specialism may not be as relevant anymore And that's that's a factor to think about but if you're too much of a generalist You're too easily replaced by a robot or or by someone else. So I think yeah The answer lies in the middle need to have find a balance Between all the skills. All right. So, um, last one last chance any questions from the floor? No Okay, that's fine When you showed your slides regarding the evolution of designs from like the control panel of the airplane to up to iPhones The it means that user experience design was a 60 was existing way way way back But now it seems so very very popular it if everybody wants to venture on it even businesses and Banks, do you think that social media or the internet or like? Play the big role to make it really popular in our nowadays Great question. I think just to start maybe I think the Using the example of the cockpit, right? I think that's where at the time Maybe there's more people in an ergonomics profession I think they were not maybe you asked as honest the way we think of them today But they're very much trying to solve similar problems, right? So I think the names have changed over over the decades, but yeah same fundamental problems in terms of your question around the popularization There may be different point of view on this for me I was working in London for seven years before shipping out to Asia and Around 2007-2008 when the iPhone came out Actually triggered a huge change in the industry in London so so London's actually doing a lot of the big regional UX work for multinationals in Europe and Sort of the year following the launch of the iPhone suddenly businesses were like wow design cells Design can be a differentiator can be a way to stand out in a crowded marketplace can help us get a competitive edge And in the current kind of two or three years following That had a huge impact in the amount of work and the demand for UX professionals So I think from my perspective I would say successes like that have kind of launched design to the forefront Yeah, and I think that's a great opportunity and a great place for us to be But of course we didn't work hard to keep it that way. Yeah Thank you. All right. Thank you Paul Can we give him a round of applause?