Deuce to you, our host today, Susan Berger from the FAAIC. Go ahead Susan. Hi everyone, thank you Mike, and we'll get started here. I'll run through my slides quickly. If connecting to collections is a big program and so if you look at our community website, you'll find that there are links to resources that are really designed for smaller institutions and there's a discussion forum which you need to register for but it just takes a few minutes and there are people that will answer your questions quickly and there are over 120 webinars that are available in the archives and now almost all of them have closed captioning. There's a link that will take you to the closed captioning on the webinar pages and we're on Facebook, we're on Twitter. If you want to be part of the Connecting to Collections Announce list, you can go to this website and join and I will put you in and that's just a list that is for announcements. It's not for discussions and you can always contact me. This is my email address and I'm happy to work with you, solve any problems. In January we're going to have a webinar on filmcare.org and then in February we're going to have one on Quilts and so we look forward to you joining us for those and join us in the new year. We're going to have a lot of new webinars, one on oversized papers, one on outdoor sculpture. There's going to be a course or two on legal issues. There's going to be a short course on exhibits so lots of things are coming up and so join us in the New York year and have a happy end of your season and now I'm going to turn you over to Rachel Ernstein and Arsteen and we'll get her started. Rachel? Thank you Susan. Can everyone, can you hear me okay Susan before I start off? Yes. Okay, good afternoon to everyone. I'm pleased to have this opportunity to update the webinar I did on this topic in 2012 because the technology of these products is changing quickly and the question of what equipment is best for monitoring collections is one that we see frequently on various forums and lists serves. Let me take a moment to tell you a bit about my background so you'll have a sense of where I'm coming from. I became interested in this topic during my first job in the Anthropology Department's Conservation Lab at the American Museum of Natural History where I was in charge of monitoring exhibit spaces including the incredible dioramas. We had old equipment that was failing and I was tasked with researching what new equipment to buy. It became frustrated pretty quickly because it was hard to understand and compare the specification sheets for different products as each company used different terminology. But by the end of the project I not only made my choice of New Lager but I had the text for what became the first National Park Service Conservagram leaflet on data loggers. That experience led to a real interest in the unglamorous task of preventive conservation as the most efficient way to prevent deterioration. After taking some HVAC engineering classes I fully embraced my geeky love of gadgets. In my private conservation practice I performed treatments for museums small and large and also set up monitoring programs and advice on environmental improvements. So over the years I've had experience picking monitoring equipment for institutions with wildly varied resources. I would also like to mention that in the last few years my partner in crime has been conservator Samantha Alderson at the American Museum of Natural History. Together we updated the conservogram a few years ago. We've given workshops on the topic and we stay in touch with vendors to keep abreast of the new products that might benefit our field. So that's enough about me. If you want to know more or contact me you can check out the handout for today's program. So here's what I plan on covering in the next hour leaving time for questions at the end. Because the core audience for the Connecting to Collections Care webinars are small or under resource museums I want to give some introductory background information on why monitoring is useful and the broader context of what our options are. But then I'm going to focus on understanding the technology and terminology of wireless monitors. This can get technical but it's important to have at least a familiarity with the terms so that you understand what and how the products work. Next I'll talk about some of the products that I think are good options for our field. And at the end I'll touch on some guidelines for monitoring that I'm frequently asked about and don't change no matter what equipment you'll be using. These days I generally don't have to convince institutions that they should be monitoring. Staff at museums, historic homes, libraries and archives know that the environment in which we store and exhibit our collections has a direct effect on their long-term preservation. But it's worth reviewing the ways in which environmental data can be used no matter how large or small you are. The data you collect is important in understanding the conditions to which your collections have become acclimated. Then you can predict how they'll react when those conditions are changed or how items will age if conditions remain the same. Having data on your spaces will allow you to make smart decisions on where you store your pieces even if you're choosing between not ideal options. The data will help you analyze how well your building envelope is acting as the first line of defense in protecting collections and if you have them whether your air handling units are performing to the best of their ability. Data is powerful in supporting fundraising efforts to show that you're addressing a documented need whether it be for large projects like upgrading HVAC or small lake purchasing boxes to buffer collections. If you're interested in cutting costs or being ecologically sustainable then you really need this data. There are other parameters that can be measured and might factor into decision making on the environment. There are loggers that will look at light intensity and or accumulation. You can also track activity in a space opening or closing of doors and other variables. But today we're going to focus on temperature and relative humidity or RH. A few of the loggers that we'll be looking at today are able to monitor other parameters and I'll try to mention that but the information is in the spec sheets whose links are given in the handout. But let's remember that the goal in monitoring is to have data to actually use. What we're talking about today is just a means to an end. I hope this program will allow you to spend less time in choosing a logger to not get overwhelmed by the variety of options out there because you know there's a reason why we tend to come back to you know some of the same companies and some of the same products. So I hope this will allow you to spend less time in choosing the logger and less time gathering your data so that ultimately you have more time to analyze it and use it to affect positive change. In other words the data should serve to help you manage your environment which is a continuous and ongoing project. So I want to very briefly review the range of equipment so you have a more complete understanding of your options and where the products will be focusing on today fit in. We're going to be mostly looking at the sort of more advanced spectrum and I'm not sure that these are really the best option for small or under-resourced museums but we often get a range of viewers on our webinars and so we're going to go through the whole thing. But first I want to ask a few questions to you guys, the audience. Susan can you put up poll questions number one and two? Well this is great. I can already see generally the poll questions I'm going to be asking today are similar to the one set that we asked four years ago. So at the end of the program it'll be interesting to to see how the data compares but already I think we're seeing you know certainly that there's more people who are using standalone data loggers and fewer who just aren't sure are still using hygrotherm graphs. And pretty much almost everyone is monitoring so that's great. Thanks Susan. Okay we're going to start low-tech. Hygrometers are devices for measuring humidity and thermo hygrometers measure temperature in RH are low-tech options and they still have a place for certain applications. There are analog versions like this dial type on top or digital versions like the one shown in the middle. The example on the bottom is called an R10 and it's still popular in museums because it has a redundancy check with the humidity stripped down below to help you determine if the dials are accurate. These units tend to be cheap and a variable accuracy. The analog version like the dial and R10 units can often be user calibrated but they only provide a spot check meaning they don't record or log anything although the digital version sometimes record higher low readings. They can be useful for applications like putting in a buffered vitrine so that you know when it's time to recondition your silica gel. A step up from the hygrometer is the hygrothermograph which some of you are still using and I assume that the rest of you are familiar with. Why can't I continue to use my hygrothermograph as something I hear less of these days but the short answer is that you can. Hygrothermographs remain available and providing that they're properly cared for can provide years of yeoman service with relatively little effort. Hygrothermographs should be calibrated regularly meaning weekly or monthly depending on whether you change the paper charts since they move out of calibration quickly but this is easy to do with an aspirating psychrometer seen in the lower image. As everyone moves towards data log or so it's getting harder to find the paper charts and pens to use with the hygrothermographs. Mostly the downside is that it doesn't allow you to easily analyze your data statistically to get a sense of the big picture. It's like the difference between a flip phone and a smart phone. It can do the job but it doesn't give you all the groovy features that you know are now available. I can't really recommend hygrothermographs anymore given how easy and cheap data loggers are these days. At the other end of the technological spectrum we have building management systems or BMSs. A BMS is a computer based system that controls and monitors the building's mechanical and electrical equipment such as ventilation, lighting, power, fire and security systems. Building management systems are most common in larger buildings and they're a critical component to managing energy demand. Improperly configured BMS systems are believed to account for 20% of building energy use. So this is a screenshot of one type of BMS view showing what's going on in part of a system. Some BMSs can log the data but it often takes a lot of memory and slows the system down so facility staff often don't like doing it. Additionally the BMS sensors are placed to allow it to monitor its own system and its own performance. So having an independent check, one that you can control where the data is being collected can be valuable. If you're a conservator, a collection manager, a curator, a registrar, ultimately your job isn't to run the system but to work with the facility staff who run the system to ensure that it's performing to meet the needs of your collection. If you don't have a facility staff and you're at an institution that's small and you're doing it all you're not going to have a BMS so it's not an issue. So while the BMS can log and analyze data and this might be necessary if you're addressing a specific problem, even if you have one this won't be a good long-term solution for most of you. So that brings us to the monitor of choice these days, the data logger. Data logger is a general name for a battery powered device with a sensor and microprocessor that will record information. For our purposes at a minimum this includes temperature and RH but as I mentioned before also can include some other parameters. I'm interested to see why people might be looking to change their monitoring equipment. Susan can you pull up poll three? Give everyone a minute. It seems there's a portion of our audience that is looking to replace equipment but the actual act of downloading and time consuming nature of that is definitely the primary driver for people who are looking to move to wireless systems. So here's where it starts to get a little complicated. If you look at these loggers in the picture there aren't any wires sticking out. In fact they are wireless at least while they're logging. With standalone loggers each logger works independently and you have to download the data to view the results. There are different ways in which you can download the data and this flowchart sort of tries to outline this. So you have a direct connection meaning something like a USB port or a cradle or cable that connects your logger to the computer. So an example of this would be one of the onset hobo units. You can have an indirect connection something that transports the data between the logger and your computer such as a handheld a unit or an SD card or a flash drive like we see with the PEM2. And then we get into wireless. So this is where the logger communicates with an intermediary device like a handheld or a smartphone or tablet and then that information is transferred either to your desktop PC or up to the cloud. And we're going to discuss some of those units today but these are still sort of standalone units. They each work independently and they're not communicating with each other. The opposite of a standalone logger is a connected system. Connected systems are often mislabeled as wireless loggers but this is a misnomer in two ways. Not all of these sensors are logging and storing information. Ideally they should because if you have a power outage or something else goes wrong you want to make sure that the unit has the ability to store information so it doesn't get lost. But some merely sense the information and then relay it to the nearest collection point. Also these systems can be wireless or they can be hardwired into your ethernet. Before I start talking about the different ways that data can be transmitted wirelessly I want to talk about some of the features that is important to understand. I think I actually am going to skip ahead to this slide here and come back. I don't want to spend a lot of time on this because much of it's covered in the conserver ground but there are both hardware and software considerations that you need to know about and choosing a product. If you want a more detailed explanation of these parameters you can listen to the 2012 Connecting to Collections online community webinar that I gave on choosing a data logger. It's available in the in the site archives. For the connected systems some of the parameters that are in the conserver ground are still important namely those in the left of the slide and the ones in the center may be less so and the one on the right is in a new one. So I want to run through a few of these because even though they'll continue to change that the products themselves will continue to change the information is important in evaluating systems whether the ones we'll look at today or things that are going to come out you know in the in the next couple of months or the next year. So first I want to make sure that people pay attention to the operating range. This is the range of temperature and RH over which the logger will work. Generally most sensors function over a temperature range beyond what we expect to see in our collection environments. Remember a lot of wireless monitoring is for the food or pharmaceutical industry and they have you know parameters way outside what we expect to see but you do sometimes have to pay close attention to the RH range. For instance the T&D log EC has an RH operating range of 15 to 90 percent and if you're monitoring in a case of archaeological metals or you're in the southwest where conditions are extremely dry that may not go low enough to capture the bottom end of your data. I get questions a lot on accuracy and you need to know that your data is accurate and some of the products are calibrated more carefully than others but all of the products that I'll be mentioning today are acceptable for our purposes and remember if you aren't checking the accuracy of the equipment you're already using at least every couple of years then you can't have faith in the accuracy of your data. Some of the units considered here have replaceable sensors some can be self-calibrated but most need to be sent back to the manufacturer for calibration and this is an expense that you have to build into your maintenance budget. Power source and battery life is important and especially so for the connected systems and the wireless loggers. You have to pay attention to the battery life to ensure that you'll have enough power for your project. For wireless loggers you need the battery both for sampling and for transmitting so it's you know remains crucial. Anything I think under one year at a reasonable sampling and transmission rate should be a unit that you reconsider and remember that some of the systems have a receiver that will need to be plugged into a power source so that's going to influence its placement. Alarms are a really important function of wireless systems and the ability to get real-time notification of problematic conditions can be great or it can be a burden. Systems now have various ways to indicate an alarm condition including the LCD display itself, audible alarms but mostly people are looking to get either emails or texts. If you don't have the staff or an environmental system that you can make changes based on these notifications this may not be so valuable to you but then you need to ask yourself whether you really need real-time data and then I want to skip to transmission. Transmission is a new parameter to look for in wireless loggers specifications. When manufacturers give transmission distance they're generally talking line of sight so if they say 300 feet they're talking about like an open field or a parking lot. Once you start putting walls, metal storage cabinets, concrete floors and other things in the way that number greatly diminishes. So as I discuss the technology that loggers use you'll see how that affects transmission but you can always assume it's going to be less than what is listed. I've felt in the past that there are you know some units where the software can sort of make or break the user friendliness and the list of software considerations is sort of personal and it can you know be long but you want to consider the both the initial cost and time and effort to retrieve the data and to get it into its proper analysis platform. Sometimes the software is a separate expense sometimes now it's bundled in and free with the logger but you're also going to now to start to need to consider whether you prefer to have an upfront cost or whether you are willing to pay for an ongoing subscription service. So some of the things that you'll want to think about are the data retrieval issues for instance you know is it a cable is it wireless is it a flash drive. The formats for data and graphs whether you know you prefer your your data in a CSV format or you really want you know text or you're you're happy to have the proprietary format of of the software package you're using. I didn't mean to skip software platform compatibility you need to know what you're using in your lab or you want Mac or PC platforms and now with the option to download to tablets or phones whether you're on iOS or Android. There's a lot of data viewing and analysis options and these tend to be sort of personal colors how the graph prints out whether you are able to modify the graph so to modify your axes and the you know the numbers you're seeing and whether you can add viewable target data ranges. So these are just some of the things to to think about when you look and very often now it's this is something that the loggers companies have vastly improved. You can sometimes download demos or screenshots there's videos so you can actually find out a lot more about the logger software before you actually purchase a unit. Okay so let's jump back quickly to costs. The loggers that we're going to be discussing today range and cost from $70 up to $900 but some of them are part of systems that the sort of basic price is around $3,000 and then you're adding on sensors from there. But it's important to understand that there's a reason why loggers are priced the way they are. Generally you're getting what you pay for and so you can't expect an inexpensive product to perform the same as a high-end one and that's okay. There are uses for both ends of the spectrum so if you're priced out of some of these you know snazier systems you know not to worry there's probably a logger or even a now a connected system that will meet your needs. But you have to think carefully over the long-term costs over the life of the logger and you don't want to be penny wise or pound foolish. If you're thinking about what your staff use of time is, how you're using the data you know those are costs as well. Now let's jump back to talking about some technology. So we had the flowchart up and we could see that our direct and indirect connection loggers don't really count as wireless because you do need to physically touch those loggers to get your data. So we're going to count those you know as just the standalone data loggers and while you know it's not always correct we're going to use the term wireless for things that you don't actually have to handle to get the data off of. But next I want to discuss the word cloud. Cloud means shared computing resources on demand rather than using local servers or devices to handle the applications. When we say the cloud we generally mean internet-based computing for storage and applications. Units like the PEM-2 store information in the cloud but according to our definition just a minute ago it's not wireless. So you see where we start to get some overlap. Four years ago when I did the last webinar on this topic none of the wireless loggers actually uploaded directly to the cloud. We knew it was coming and now it's here so this is the really big change in the landscape. Several products now do communicate directly with the cloud storage system but you have to look carefully at whether there are extra or ongoing costs with this service. The next term we'll see on the spec sheets is Wi-Fi, something that most of us can no longer live without. It's the most common wireless networking technology using radio waves to provide wireless network connections and we're going to talk about several Wi-Fi loggers today. But it's important to know what kind of Wi-Fi system you have in your museum and whether that system really reaches all the places that you're going to want to monitor. You have to know whether you have an open network or one that's password protected. Next we want to talk about networking. A network is a group two or more computer systems linked together. There are many types of networks but the term that you'll see most frequently in this context is LAN, a local area network which basically means that the computers are in some geographic proximity for instance in the same building. A network protocol defines the signals that computers on your LAN use to communicate and one of the most popular protocols for LAN is called Ethernet. So when we start to look at some of the systems you'll see that they're either Wi-Fi or Ethernet and some can do both. Some loggers are RF which stands for radio frequency. RF is any frequency within the electromagnetic spectrum associated with radio wave propagation. Many wireless technologies are based on this and this image here is a graphic of how radio frequencies are allocated in the US by the FCC. As you can see it's a mess. Some frequencies are open others aren't and this is really just important to understand because the frequency on which an RF logger transmits determines some you know all sorts of things of you know how powerful it is and you know how far you can throw your signal it also will determine whether the system requires a site license or not. The next technology that we're going to see in some of the units today is Bluetooth. This is a short-range radio technology aimed at simplifying communications between devices. There are different classes of Bluetooth transmission. Some like class one devices like a laptop need more power but transmit longer distances. The most common devices are class two which require less power but transmit only around 30 feet and that's again probably line of sight. In order for two devices to communicate using Bluetooth they must be paired. Some of you have probably had Bluetooth headsets or headphones and now you know cars allow you to connect to your phone via Bluetooth. Bluetooth is sometimes referred to as a near field communication and they're similar but not the same NFC has a transmission distance of only a few inches. One example is these new payment types where you can like tap your phone on the payment unit but sometimes it does require some contact or at least just being a few inches away. It doesn't require pairing and it uses little power so this is just something to keep in mind as you read spec sheets. There are different cellular digital cellular technologies and you may see terms like GSM or others that I won't go into but in the context of data loggers refers to products that can transmit over a cellular phone network. These systems will require that you have a SIM card and a phone plan just like with a cell phone. This quickly adds up to an ongoing expense and these systems probably aren't the right fit for our field with the range of other options that we have now. Infrared is a term that most of us know about relating to the portion of the light spectrum. It's another way of referring to the IRDA standard for transmitting data via infrared light waves. You need to have the sending and receiving units in close proximity and direct line of sight to each other. There were a few loggers that used this technology and it was really the first way that logger companies tried to transmit wirelessly but it is outdated for our purposes and I'm not going to be discussing any units that function this way but you still see them out there so I wanted to mention it. And then there are some RFID loggers which stands for radio frequency identification. It's similar in theory to barcode identification. With RFID the electromagnetic and or electrostatic coupling in the RF portion of the electromagnetic spectrum is used to transmit signals. The RFID system consists of an antenna and a transceiver which reads the radio frequency and transfers the information to a processing device and a transponder or tag which contains the integrated RF circuitry and information to be transmitted. Phew. Don't worry. This technology is best suited for monitoring things on the move whether it's your dog, sweaters in a store or in our field art and transit. There is one logger from Monarch that uses this technology and it included links in the handout but unless you really need the geolocating feature it isn't really a good choice for the kinds of basic monitoring we do most often. There is also a company eProvenance that provides a monitoring service for fine art although their specialty is really wine in transit and they're using RFID trackers so it's something at least to know about if the need should arise. So before I start talking about the actual products I want to emphasize again that this is a selective list. There are ones that either I or my colleague Samantha or others whom we know have direct experience with. I've checked details with manufacturers and distributors for accuracy but remember that the products and pricing change. The handout that I made to accompany the webinar lists the products by vendor and gives us links to the appropriate web pages for easy access to the technical specifications but here I'm going to talk about the loggers by connectivity type. So let's first talk about the Wi-Fi loggers. This is some of the units that form part of the T&D corporation's RTR500 series. This is a really robust family of loggers that has by far the most connectivity options in a single product line. You can connect directly via the USB cable as a simple option. On the bottom left you're seeing a handheld unit which is good for mobile or drive-by or walk-in data collection. The units can be networked into your institution's LAN using either the wired Ethernet connector or the Wi-Fi router depending on the nature of your network and there's even a cellular option. So we've used basically all of our terminology here. The system's good transmission rate and flexibility goes hand in hand though with a higher cost but you can have your data either on your own network or use their free cloud storage. T&D only sells through distributors that have good tech support and their US President is very familiar with our field and its needs. The RTR574 logger which is part of this line is the only unit that logs UV and one of the more accurate luck floggers. The units have always been good quality in my experience and the software has improved greatly over time. This is a good option for mid to large institutions with a complex building, varied needs and a good IT department. The temperature and RH sensors run between $249 to 319 depending on whether you're going for the regular or high accuracy sensor. The illuminates UV temperature and humidity logger is up at 370 and then you need one of the collection tools either the handheld which is also around 319 or the Ethernet or Wi-Fi base stations which is 259. Again the software and the cloud storage is free. So this is a really big system but T&D has said that actually their number one seller these days is this newer TR7 series. So there's two versions of the logger. The WF works over a wireless system meaning that you need to know your SSID and password to connect and the NF connects directly to your Ethernet system. So here you have to understand which of these two systems is going to work in your building. While you can store your data locally using the mobile apps the unit is pre-programmed to interact with T&D's free unlimited cloud storage. So these units have both varying networking and data options depending on your building and your data sharing needs. There's no limit to the number of units you can have on the system and there are some nice hardware features like a two-year battery life, internal memory, large LCD and one that I particularly like which is the replaceable sensors. The sensor cost has come down recently to 259 making it competitively priced especially when you add in the free storage. I think this is a good option for institutions that don't have the need or capabilities for the 500 series but you still have to have a robust network that reaches all the areas that you want to monitor. The Tesla Severus 2 logger is a newer one to the market. They exhibited at the last AIC meeting and in playing around with it I've been impressed with the ease of setup. There were a few things that I didn't find intuitive in their online software but a call to their support staff cleared things up. The software allows you to group your units in different ways making it easy to manage data for a large number of loggers. The reports look nice and the app worked well on both the iPad, Android and web platforms. I set up the alert functions to send text messages and that also works smoothly. The loggers must be on a secure system so it won't work on an open Wi-Fi network. While Gaylord Archival sells the other standalone loggers made by Testo, for now you have to buy the Severus 2 directly from Testo. Their website for this is currently a bit clunky and unclear but if you use the request info button you'll get a quick response. I found that the company has been very responsive and they are interested in selling directly now because they're willing to sort of look at bundling packages. They'll also do special orders like custom probes. The Severus 2 HI which is the temperature and humidity logger sells for about $316 but in contrast to the TND there are additional costs. You have to register the units and the basic license is free but your data is stored online only for three months meaning that you must have a good plan for backing up and archiving your data on your local server or PC. If you purchase the advanced license it's $17.60 per device per year which can quickly add up for a mid-size institution. This will give you two years of data storage so the long-term archiving of data isn't an issue that goes away. I like the hardware and software so it'll be interesting to see how it does in the market with its higher ongoing costs. Next we'll take a look at the NASCAR EL Wi-Fi TH and the TH Plus which is essentially the same with the TH Plus has a tighter RH accuracy. This unit was released just weeks before the 2012 webinar. My first experience with this logger I had trouble getting it set up in the smaller institution where I was working in Jerusalem. It just wasn't working well with my network even after extensive technical support but eventually it was unclear whether it was the network or the unit itself and a replacement unit was much easier to set up and the connectivity was much better. So when the unit first came out you connected directly to a PC via the wireless system but now you can continue to do that or you can use their cloud storage, cloud software, called files through the air. It's free for one to two units but you don't have the full functionality that you get with a paid subscription service and most of the things that we would want to do as museums or libraries and archives in terms of sharing our data require the subscription service. So this ongoing cost is something that museums often seem to bulk add as opposed to upfront so it's something to consider. I found the sort of dashboard of sensors you know nice and pleasant to use excuse me and their graphing software is good. So those are my favorites in the Wi-Fi category. Let's jump over now to Bluetooth. I've had a generally good experience with the onset MX1101 Bluetooth Logger. Initially when I first used this logger a few years ago I had some connectivity issues and my Android phone wasn't new enough for the app. So this brings up an issue of you know what handheld devices are we using? Are we using our personal devices? Are we using institutional sponsored devices and making sure that you know that as these platforms and products and software updates seem to come faster and faster that keeping up with that is going to be an issue that you're going to have to pay attention to. The setup for the Bluetooth Logger was very easy on the iOS platform and on the right what you're seeing is a setup of one logger that went in with this is one of the Dead Sea Scrolls that was going to go into a sealed between which had very strict environmental and reporting parameters. Initially I found that the battery life of the units was well under one year which was a drag for the uses that I needed it for in terms of sealed betrines for loan objects that we were not supposed to open. But this problem seems to have been corrected it was a data power issue and at $135 the price for this logger is really very reasonable. The data does not go to the cloud so someone needs to walk by the case to download it but it's easy to export and share the data and you can see here this is on my phone what the little graph looks like it's you have to remind yourself not to be alarmed because it does an auto scaling so you're not looking at this on a zero to 100 you're looking at you know a tighter band so when you see all of this up and down it may not be actually that dramatic when you look at the numbers but it's easy to sort of check on your your sensors and see alarms and there's a number of different options for how you can share your data. My understanding is that onset is working on developing a cloud capability for the logger so stay tuned for that. I haven't had the chance to play with this new Bluetooth logger from Lascar but I do like their other products. Each unit costs 160 so I'm interested to see how it compares with the slightly cheaper onset unit and it is important to know that at least for now the app is only available on Android devices. TND apparently is going to have a Bluetooth logger coming out expected in early 2017. It is supposed to be called the GR4 series that's at least the tip that I received so that's just something to to keep a lookout for. So now we're going to jump over to look at a few radio loggers. Before wireless systems became cheaper and more common Hanwell basically had a lock on the market for a while with their radio telemetry system. Many institutions in the US and UK have installed the system but its main drawback was the need to beam the data from the sensors to a single PC based collection point which often required the use of numerous repeater units to extend the signal. Now this system has a good signal strength due to the transmission frequency but it does require a site specific license. The newer smart receiver 2 wirelessly gathers the radio data from each transmitter in the building saves it and if it's connected to your institution's land passes the data on as requested to the server. PCs on the land network can view the live or historical data as needed. The Hanwell sensors tend to be physically larger than a lot of the other loggers that we've looked at but they do also have a USB option and they're pretty robust and they have very long battery lives. In addition to monitoring temp and RH there's other compatible units to measure light, UV, dust accumulation, oxygen, carbon dioxide and more. So again this is a very, it's a big system that can do a lot if you're looking for lots of data options. However the basic starter package which includes the smart receiver, the synergy software and the FCC site license come out to be $3,000 and then on top of that you add the cost of the ML4000 RHT humidity series sensors which are about $650 each and if you need any additional receivers or repeaters you're looking at an additional $1,400 of cost for each unit. So whether you get a second receiver or the repeaters depends on the most efficient way to increase your signal area. Hanwell is now a product of the IMC group in the UK and there are a couple of products like the GPRS cellular version of the system and the smaller sensor called the RF bug that are only available in the UK. So you may see those online but they're not options for us here in the US. This is an established product so there's a long track record but they may not be as responsive as some of these other companies are to the needs of individual clients. Their US distributor though understands the system well and works with the client to complete the installation. The LTCH Gen 2 wireless logging system is similar in some ways to the Hanwell system and both are widely used in the UK. LTCH entered the US market far later than Hanwell and the sensors transmit via radio frequency back to a single point receiver. The system is somewhat expensive to set up but it may be worth the price for larger institutions with a complex plan as the signal strength is considered fairly good. However what is billed as a 3200 foot line of site transmission is more realistically around 650 feet in a museum so you have to look at their specifications carefully. The base station which can connect to a PC or the internet is $1,800. The basic software is free but the more useful DARCA heritage software which is really well designed is $1,000. There are two types of sensors one with an LCD at $468 and one without at $382. If repeaters are necessary to increase the transmission distance they're about $850 each. So this like the Hanwell you can see there's sort of an initial base price of several thousand dollars before you start adding on the sensor. But depending on the if you don't have a wireless network that extends throughout your museum this is the kind of you know option that will work in a complex building. Well I'm a fan of the onset products as they feel they're generally good value for their money even when they have some flaws and as a company onset has broad familiarity with our profession and good support the onset CW indoor wireless system also called the data nodes was one of the first plug-and-play systems that I came across. This system works on your local network but if the base computer is connected to the internet you can configure the software to email or text alarms and send or save your data on your network. But one issue with the nodes is that they need to be plugged in which limits its placement and the battery on the unit it's really for backup not for continued use. And the sensor does some logging but it's really meant to tide you over in the event of a power outage until you can communicate again with your collection point. So it isn't an appropriate option for an enclosed space like a vitrine. You're better off there with something like the Bluetooth loggers. There are a number of institutions that are using this system successfully and you can find that information on the 2012 webinar handout. So it comes up you know when people mention it on various listservs but I think even the staff that I've spoken with that onset agrees that this system has been superseded by other items in this product line. On the same vein there's this wireless logger from T&D which was an early entry into the wireless market. The small logger communicated back to the wireless dongle that you see here on the left. And that had to remain in your computer's USB port. It was really easy to set up but there was little signal strength. This was somewhat compensated by the logger's ability to create a mesh network where each unit both sends data and transmitted it onto your PC collection point. This means the more sensors you had on the system the more robust it would be. But the system didn't have any alert capabilities so the benefit of having the real-time data was somewhat lost. While the unit is still available and it's you know cheap at $160 per sensor and the software was free, you needed more of them to counter this problem of the short range. And the battery only lasted six months which was too short for my liking. So again you'll see this on the website. People you know mention it but I'd bypass this one for T&D's other offerings. I want to point out that in addition to the many good products already out there and the new ones that will inevitably come there are options to create your own logging system. I was fascinated by the series of posts by registrar and blogger Angela Kipp on her experiments whipping up her own logger. But unless you revel in STEM or your institution has unique needs this isn't going to be the way to go. In choosing you know a system you shouldn't forget some intangible things. The service and technical support of the company is going to be important. You have to keep in mind your own in-house capabilities and expertise and you know if possible your own time insanity. So let's just talk a little bit about the reasons to use wireless or connected systems. I do understand that people you know are looking at this and it's the you know the wave of the future. But you know everything has its pluses and minuses. So the circumstances that I think wireless or connected systems work best is when you really need the real-time data. It's super convenient to sit at your desk and click into your monitoring system to see what's going on. However the main advantage of having real-time data is the ability to quickly learn of and respond to these problematic conditions. If you're in an institution without climate control if you don't have the ability to make corrections and so this real-time knowledge while cool doesn't actually advance your collection care then you need to have another compelling reason to use a wireless system. So what are some of those? It may be that you have off-site locations that you need to monitor. That would be a good rationale for wireless. If you have lots of data the wireless systems don't need the cables or flash drives or portable devices and so you can you know you can save time by not having to go around to your institution collecting the data and so you know that will help if you're monitoring a lot of data points and by that I mean you know more than let's say 20.  Another valid use is enclosed spaces. One of the compelling reasons to monitor sealed microclimates was you know something like the Dead Sea Scrolls you know where I wasn't allowed to open the case. At the American Museum of Natural History one of the cases I had to monitor was that of copper man a mineralized mummy of an ancient Chilean minor and this case was hermetically sealed and it would have been nice to have a better way to know when the silica gel needed to be reconditioned. So are you ready for a connected system? So let's see Susan can you pull up I think it's polls four through eight maybe a couple of those at a time. We're getting some interesting getting some interesting information here. In terms of how many spaces or sensors people currently have we sort of have an even spread with a lot of people in the sort of forward to 20 but some and 20 above. When I've spoken I've spoken actually to a couple of people recently who were saying you know in a small institution they were they had 30 monitoring points and you know I just asked them to go back and sort of check and sort of see if they actually were really looking at their data were they getting similar profiles was it possible that they didn't really you know need to monitor ongoing in so many spaces that they could say you know now after a year or two of monitoring that you know this space pretty much follows you know the space adjacent or the space above you know with a let's say two percent change. Most people were seeing do you have some ability to change or control the environment. So this is interesting in the past price was always the the big driver for data logger choice and now we're seeing ease of use as the as the top. Again for accuracy I think all of the loggers that we're talking about today are well within you know the range of accuracy. While we certainly know that there's a lot of under-resourced museums in the C2CC audience it seems that today is a pretty tech savvy crew and it's encouraging to see that people are sharing their data and especially that they're sharing it with facilities and their administration so that's great. And for the most part we're monitoring in our climate controlled areas some in non and within display cases or off-site storage so a nice spread there. So this list is sort of some of the the things that I think are important to consider you know if you're monitoring a number of spaces meaning that the savings in time would really be beneficial that's good. The budget for the wireless systems you know certainly the more robust ones or ones that allow you to transmit to all areas of your institution are definitely more expensive the Bluetooth loggers on the on the lower end of the budget scale. And knowing that you have you know an IT person that you know can help you especially if you're looking at some of the bigger system is really an essential. And one thing again to remember is these other ongoing costs and you know just the regular costs of updating platforms now and apps or mobile devices the cloud storage and all of these other things. It's definitely more of an issue than with the single standalone loggers. So when we see problems with wireless or connected systems they tend to fall in you know sort of a few broad categories. The first is the building construction. The key to some of these wireless systems is testing them in your building because your ability to configure a system and transmit data successfully will depend greatly on your building's construction. So in general you're going to want to place units away from metal building elements for instance walls floors and stairs. Concrete will adversely affect your transmission. It's unavoidable in larger institutions but it's one of the things that if you're a smaller historic home that works to your benefit. You'll want to keep wireless loggers far away from other wireless devices like lamps or cordless phones and you'll also want to keep them away from noise emitting sources like you know fluorescent lamps. I highly recommend purchasing a single unit and testing it in your space. You can speak to the manufacturer distributor and explain that if it works for you you'll buy more but don't buy a lot of any wireless logger until you check that it works in your building or on your network. As far as IT support these devices and systems are increasingly easy to plug and play but since most of them require that they run over some type of network in your institution it's imperative that you have the support and cooperation of your IT department. If you don't have an IT department then you have to determine whether this is how you want to spend your time and energy because when they don't work they can become a real time suck. Device compatibility is the next issue. I don't know about you all but the number of devices I have in my family and the updates they need is you know is becoming exhausting so you have to consider whether you're going to have the time and budget and interest in keeping your platforms and devices up to date and compatible. And another thing that a couple of the developers talked about with me is mentioning to our audience about firmware updates. Firmware is software that's part of the read-only memory of a device and a number of the units that I tested required firmware updates before I could begin or complete the logger setup and installation. If you purchase a logger from a vendor you'll want to keep an eye out for the emails or other notifications about firmware updates to ensure that your device continues to run properly. And if you run into you know problems with a unit that used to work and be compatible and now isn't I'm checking to see whether there's a firmware update is one of the first things you should do. So just quickly you know people ask how many you know monitors do we need. There's no magic number of monitors or locations. You need to monitor what you know to figure out what you need to know. Do you have preservation concerns. Is there a collection or object of significance. Are there microclimates. Do you have large spaces or multiple air handlers. Do you have existing building issues. So ultimately you want to place the logger to get the data you need. Do you want your data to be representative of a space or near a particularly significant collection item or to diagnose or confirm a suspected area with poor conditions. So this is data from a pre workshop survey that Samantha and I did and I'm interested to see how the small sample matches our audience today. Can we have our final poll question number nine. Okay so oh you're right that one was pulled up so we have that. Again it was climate control terrific. So one thing I'd like to draw attention to is this excellent 1997 article which is available on the cool conservation online website. So this piece by JP Brown and William Rose draws a distinction between two different kinds of monitoring. So they called it confirmatory monitoring which is requires sort of low sensor density low data volume and permanently installed units for a long term objective. So this kind of monitoring is aimed at ensuring general chronic problems of indoor climate are being controlled to the desired limits. And then there's investigative monitoring which is generally more for a temporary installation. You may want more high you know high sensor density portable units a higher data volume meaning you know sampling at a shorter rate. And the objective for this is shorter term. You're aiming to discover the source of a particular acute problem and generate appropriate solutions. So I think this is really important to to think about your goals. You know it may be that for for something something like for some kinds of monitoring the confirmatory monitoring something simple like a PEM2 is enough for that space and for you know other spaces you know where you have you know more valuable exhibits you know the something like a wireless or connected system would be a better choice. In terms of logger placement whether it's wireless or networked doesn't you know really change.  And generally it's recommended sort of four to six feet from the floor somewhere you know the accessibility obviously is not an issue so much for when we don't actually have to touch it to get our data off. And then unless you want to be looking at what your HVAC supply is bringing you you don't want it up near a duct or against a window or heater and direct sunlight. And the last tip is just to make sure that you still pay attention to data management. You know even if you're you're having the data coming back to you you still need to be looking at it to have it be useful. You know want to be looking you know monthly or for the seasonal anomalies and make sure that you're backing it up especially you know even if you're using a cloud storage option. So I'm going to stop here so that we have enough time for questions. I'm grateful to all the the vendors and distributors who and colleagues who helped with information for this presentation. And Susan I think we can take some questions. Okay do you want me to read them or do you want them do you want to read them? Let's see. I can read them.  So Roe Smart said I have several remote i.e. seven kilometer away storage environments to check on. I hope this might be helped with collection data better and more easily. Do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah well so I as I said I definitely think that having off-site storage you know a place that you're not at is a good reason to have a system that that goes up to up to the cloud so you can access it from you know where you are. So again you need to know what what is the capability of that space. So is there a wi-fi system there? Is there an ethernet system? You know a Bluetooth logger wouldn't be a good choice for that application because you would still have to go there to be close enough you know to to download your data. So there you really need either you know a wi-fi or ethernet system or you know a radio system but that still would have to get your data to the cloud. So however you're collecting for an off-site location it's the ability to check your data from you know from the cloud that's going to be the most valuable for you. Okay Holly Chase said where can I go for museum standards of RH and temperature levels for collections that are a variety of media and Bryn Bander suggested the new revision of the Park Service handout which our museum handbook and I'll put that into the resource list after we finish today but do you have any other suggestions? Um I I do I mean this this is an ongoing issue that people are still wrestling with you know this idea that well if we're not recommending you know 70 degrees plus or minus two or and you know 50 percent plus or minus five percent you know what are we looking at and in fact there's there's a number of good resources that sort of talk about you know where we are right now and many of them are already linked off of the C2CC resource page I believe Susan it's the managing the environment page yeah that's right so there's the AIC wiki has sort of a bit of a history on sort of why we are in you know where we are but there's a number of other good resources that NADCC has some a couple of those are listed on the handout or on the resource page so I'd start there because I think many of those are sort of the most accessible ones. Okay on Kimberly Kwan has is there any way of checking if we can get proper transmission for wireless data loggers before purchasing them? Is there a solution for getting proper transmission of difficult areas with little access to cellular or Wi-Fi signal? So in terms of getting a sense of you know checking it is possible like if you're interested in something like the TND7 series or the lascar EL Wi-Fi you know to purchase one and sometimes if you call up the manufacturer distributor and say you know if this doesn't work in my institution can I return it you know they may say you can have 14 days or 30 days you know with money back so that's definitely something that that I encourage you to you know to reach out to them and you know and say I'm I can't you know I this is a lot of money from my institution I need to know that it's going to work so I've I have found that a lot of places have been have been open to that. So in terms of getting data all the way back to a you know a central receiver or up to the cloud you're either looking at this sort of you know Wi-Fi or you're looking at the the radio so you know the radio loggers like the LTCH or the Hanwell are designed for for institutions where you don't have the you know the Wi-Fi or the Ethernet but but again you're you're paying a higher cost because essentially you're implementing that capability with you know with the system. I'm not sure like again if your if your goal is to get the the data to come back to you the Bluetooth you know still requires you to go out although you know data collection is sort of fast and easy. On Blake rail on asks how often do you need to replace each data logger? So this is a really interesting question because it's it's pretty it's pretty logger specific and and it's you know sometimes it's it's hard to know for the last month or so I've had a wide variety of loggers in a couple of locations around my studio and some of them all seem to be in agreement and some of them are you know just teetering on the outside range of you know of the the accuracy specs. So in terms of replacing a data logger you know now a days with the the standalone loggers like the really simple ones some of them are considered disposable like the really cheap ones that are under even $70 you can't recalibrate them they're good for one to two years and then the manufacturer assumes that you will literally throw it away and buy a new one. You know we tend to like to recommend that people check the calibration on a yearly basis. I think if your environment isn't crazy and generally you can get away with you know a couple of years the temperature on on a digital logger is not going to shift so much but the RH overtime will drift and it tends to drift high so if you see that your you know readings are creeping up over time that's that's the time to sort of take it out maybe check it against another logger check it in an environment that you know is stable. It's you know some of the better loggers are more expensive but that doesn't actually mean that they last longer sometimes the higher quality sensors are more sensitive and can go out of calibration a little bit faster. So so but you know some of the things like it's one of the reasons I do like the feature on the TND where those sensors are sort of like plug into the base unit so you can actually replace the sensor without having to replace the entire logger. Okay so I would say you know check it after a couple of years but you know some loggers can keep going like the PM2s are designed to you know run for five years they say before you to recalibrate them. Okay Nicole Prun had her question about last car she said she'd wish that she'd heard this before she bought one and Nicole if you didn't get it answered tell me. Michael Ingram says we've had issues with data loggers on Wi-Fi interrupting service with other Wi-Fi networks I think you mentioned this Rachel have you encountered this before and do you have any recommendations for a workaround? So yes I have encountered this before and you know and it is an issue and it is important you know for instance I mentioned that the Severus 2 will only work on a secure network and others things seem to play better on open networks and again it's really hard to save for sure it you know because it really just depends on your building and what your network configurations are. So I guess my questions would be you know are you seeing this in only you know one section of the building do you have a good sense of of what networks and equipment is you know also in that area and whether there's someone you know in your institution who can sort of help you sort of survey your landscape and figure out you know what is interfering with each with each thing but it is also one of the reasons why it's important that that most most of these connected sensors do have some actual logging and storage capability so it means when there is like an interruption in service they they will store it the data and then when it comes back online it'll just sort of like dump it all back in but it is frustrating when you go on and you see this sort of like you know hole and you know you think well that's not you know that's not what I'm paying for so you're you're not alone this is something that happened and before we go on I'll just quickly jump back to to Nicole's question the the last car loggers when Samantha and I did the update for the Conservagram we were we were really pleasantly surprised by you know these USB loggers were really cheap but they performed really well in the calibration tests that we did and so if you know if you're happy with how that's working for you you know I I think it's it's generally a good product line so I don't I don't think you should feel bad about you know about your purchase. I'm bringing over the evaluation so please fill out the evaluation they're very important to us we look at them we use them to help plan so here it is and the next question is has anyone dealt with problems implementing Wi-Fi data loggers because of the museum's firewall restrictions I think that goes along with the one before. Yes although it's a it's a slightly different issue Michael's issue is sort of you know that there's sort of interference in the system but there are other institutions where and this again is why it's really important to to collaborate with your your IT department so for instance Samantha at Natural History cannot use any of these you know Wi-Fi loggers they're firewall restrictions you know prohibit it we've you know she's played with things using hotspot but but she uses a hard wired system because it's just it's it does not play nicely so there have been you know improvements again for for you I may bill recommend taking a look at the Severus 2 because it it requires that it's on a secure network that may work better for you but this is where you know you get into the sort of site specific complexity. Okay um let's see does anyone have any experience with a mono lead tag by edit tag? That is not a anything that I've heard about. Okay and here's a wonky question from John Jacobs he says do any of the software packages have the algorithms that will automatically indicate maximum ranges for temperature in RH ranges that during any given 24-hour period? Um yeah so this is a good question and it's interesting because some of the alert and you know alarm functions on the loggers are pretty simple it's sort of like you know you get a reading above you know whatever your upper limit range is and and you know or do you get it below but but a number of the loggers in fact many of them now um when you set up what your sort of um what your target range is uh you can also set up um how sort of how fine-tuned do you want that to be like do you if you get um you can say well I only really want to be um uh alerted um to an alarm condition if it's been that way for more than you know a half an hour so it means that like the occasional blip or thing you know that that sort of anomalous reading isn't going to you know send you scurrying for your earphone or back to your lab um so you can either set it up by the number of data points by the time that it's outside the range um and sometimes the systems will tell you um you know they'll send you a text when it's outside the range and it'll send you a text when it's back in um so that you know you don't have to worry so yes actually the software now really does allow you to sort of configure um what are the parameters and how how sensitive you need that to be okay so we have six more minutes so I'm gonna push you to get through with these all and or otherwise I'll make you answer them in writing um that's Brent Powell asks which systems are best alarm notification responses okay so that goes along with with John's questions um so you know the ones that I'm most familiar with are like I was um pleased with the um Severus 2 um I've had good results with the um the onset bluetooth I haven't played with the the last car bluetooth um the um the last car el wi-fi um does do that but again you need you know to be using um the files through the air the paid subscription rather than the pc based I think for the better results there um and uh for you know I haven't um played yet with the seven um the the uh tnd um seven series but um given what I've seen of their software um I have high expectations for that one so off the top of my head that's um those are are the ones that is there a system that will integrate to a bms system um none of the ones that we've discussed here today and again I I think you know for what we want to be able to do with our data um you know generally we're looking at you know at like a parallel system um for the things that integrate into a bms system you're you're generally looking at um sort of product specific things that are are compatible so none of these um none of these are you know are are are something like that okay um how frequently do they do data loggers have to be calibrated um so I think we sort of address that one again you know I think it depends how um how often you move them around how extreme your conditions are um you know I'd certainly encourage you to take a look at them if not every year than every couple of years um you know even if there there are ways to do that with them saturated salt solutions Samyette and I have um had in progress a another conserver ground um that that we you really do need to figure finish up which explains how to do that but even if you have more than you know a couple of loggers if you put them on the desk all next to each other and see as you know it's one an outlier that gives you a sense you know you can run a psychrometer you know alongside them okay so we have a really good one if we need a consultant to help us select a data logging system do we hire a conservator or are there other consultants who can help us work with our facilities department um so that is a good question and I think it sort of depends on um the size and complexity um it depends like do you uh um in terms of selecting a data logger system um a conservator that you know works with these products um would probably be able to do that if you go with someone like um an engineer there you know are a couple of um you know people in in a i c who you know i've worked with who are you know mechanical engineers as well as um you know or have architectural backgrounds they can um sometimes take it to the next level um so they're gonna you know not only set you up with the data logging system but you know they'll be looking at your building on flow and other improvements um but they may be even more expensive than a conservator so you know I'd say start with the find a conservator um feature on the a i c website you can um check off uh uh within the different specialties whether you're looking for someone with a preventive conservation background um so you know if you could you know look broadly for an object conservator a textile conservator someone else but if they've checked off in their profile that um they have a preventive conservation background you know then you can ask them what their experience is um setting up human systems um you're looking for someone who's a geek um so okay and we have one last question from uh Cindy Opex um do any of these work in ultra cold environments such as inside freezers yes um many of them do because um many of these systems are designed um to you know to work we are a very small market overall and you know a couple of these companies have made real efforts to um understand our needs it's sort of you know fun to see your logger in a high profile you know museum but you know for the most part it's um you know food storage food um transport pharmaceutical um needs which um are the big uh um purchasers of this kind of equipment so um so in fact I I'm not going to hazard um because I'm looking at all of this equipment some of the numbers blend together but Cindy used the um links in the handout because many of these will will go down and if not these because these are were sort of specifically chosen for general museum monitoring um there are like onset certainly has a line that's meant for you know weather stations um and other like more um actual environment monitoring um so those products um certainly out there they may though um be a slightly different versions of products that that we've discussed today okay so that's all I want to thank everybody uh we'll see you in the new year at the end of January and remember there are always people on the website to answer questions and um please fill out the the um evaluation and thank you Rachel and thank you Mike okay thanks to both of you goodbye everyone bye bye


السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته ورحمة الله وبركاتكم إلى أحقام SOS the Ramadan Edition إن شاء الله you've been fasting and you've been reaping the benefits and having a very, very spiritual Ramadan I'm your host Mosin Shah and joining me is Shaykh Ali Ma'ash السلام عليكم Shaykhna السلام عليكم ورحمة الله الحمد لله as the fasting guy تقاب الله الصيام وانتو من إن شاء الله Shaykhna we've been discussing the different أحقام from the Marja the Sayyid the Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Salik Shirazi what is his opinion on or his ruling on if someone has Qadha fasts but he has no idea how many he has left for example if he has two or three or four or was not aware or has forgotten that oh I was traveling I traveled for this many days I was in this many days I'm not sure what does one do in that situation إن شاء الله أعوذ بالله السميع العلي من الشيطان الرجيم بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم وصر الله على محمد واله الطيبين الطاهرين if an individual is not sure about the number of days that he missed and he has Qadha for the month of Ramadan well that person needs to go back and calculate the dates in which he are sure about them uncertain so let's say when you ask him he would say yes I'm sure 95% let's say that it was six days but I'm not sure if it was seven days or more but six days is something I'm sure about it so they have to only take the certain days so only the certain days that they are sure about they do the Qadha and they have to leave the rest which they have doubt and unsure so this is the main case for those who have missed and have Qadha for the month of Ramadan and Shaykhna when you have determined how many fasts you have to do how many Qadha you have do you have to do them straight away after 8 the following day after 8 you have to start paying back your Qadha fast well for the Qadha you are not oblique to begin the Qadha straight away on the second day of Shawwal which is the second day of 8 because on the first day of 8 it's Haram to fast yes Qadha or anything else but for the second of Shawwal onwards it's not wajib for you to begin the Qadha of those days and continuous of the days so let's say you had six days you start straight away after the 8 no you have all the year from Shawwal all the way to Shaaban the following year up to the month of Ramadan of the following year so you have to make sure that you did all the Qadha before the start and the commencement of the month of Ramadan of next year that's very important so you go 11 months to do the Qadha whenever you want in the winter time you know the hours are short for example it's not that hot for example you do the Qadha and not necessarily to be consecutive and continuous six days you can do once a week for six weeks for example every Saturday one day of Aba and that's it and insha'Allah I'll accept the fasting أحسنت شيخنا شيخنا do I have to do the Qadha so myself the fast do I have to repay it and what if someone can't pay it back is he allowed to get somebody else to do it for him well it is important to know that the wajibat like the fasting the prayers as long as the individual is alive in this world and still living and breathing they must do themselves the Qadha of Salah of Psalm and such like however with regard to the one who departs this world the diseased one so let's say someone's father dies and the father has a few days of Qadha then it is the obligation of the older son the bigger son who is the Wali he becomes the Wali now the Wali who is in charge of the the issues with regard to his father for example he has to fast the Qadha of his father and of course there's a condition with this regard that if he wants to do the Qadha of his father for the month of Ramadan it has to be with an excuse so the father let's say he was in trouble and he lost his life let's say he died in trouble in the month of Ramadan or let's say he was ill he couldn't fast that month then the older son must do the Qadha for these days in which the father had an excuse but if the father was God forbid a non-religious let's say he never fasted he never prayed in this case no there's no obligatory on the older son the Wali to to do the Qadha of the fast it's only when the father has an excuse illness or trouble and he missed the month of Ramadan fasting can you actually pay these people as well to keep the fast on behalf of the deceased well if the Wali who is the older son in this scenario didn't want to do the Qadha himself then he is if he's got the means the right money to give it to somebody to hire somebody and pays him to do the Qadha of the month of Ramadan of his deceased father so that's fine find somebody and there are people around who would charge an amount of money to do the Qadha of the month of Ramadan or the Qadha of the prayers for the whole year for example and that is allowed and valid yes and the the Qadha will be insha'Allah accepted as well I understand I understand I have some other questions in regards to fasting a bit miscellaneous can a Muslim who is fasting can he offer a food and drink to another Muslim if that person is deliberately not fasting according to the Sayyid's Mas'ala in this regard he says it's not allowed and permitted for the mu'min who is fasting to offer and serve food or drink to a Muslim or even to the non-Muslim because the a haqam is also obligated on even the non-Muslims they have to also join the belief and fast and pray and so forth so in this case we are not allowed to offer and serve the food particularly to the Muslims who are as I've said non-religious for example they don't fast they don't pray in the month of Ramadan in the daytime of course not in the night time and of course the Sayyid says also the non-Muslims because the haqam is also bound to them not only the non-Muslims I understand and Sheikh Na'a what if I'm not fasting I have a legitimate reason I'm ill I'm travelling this and that am I allowed to eat and drink food especially in front of other Muslims well the Sayyid says it is Makruh and disliked by the Sharia that you eat in front of somebody else let's say you're ill and your parents are well they have no issue or your sisters or brothers and you start eating and one of them in the month of Ramadan this is something disliked and Makruh by the Sharia so you try to find an isolated place in your own bedroom for example you close the room or somewhere away from the view of the people and you begin eating and drinking because you're ill or travelling or anything else and other excuses otherwise it's better to avoid it I understand Sheikh Na'a Sheikh Na'a what about students and especially people who do hard labour if fasting is too difficult for them are they allowed to break their fast? well such excuses for those who are studying let's say or working hard as long as they don't suffer extreme thirst or extreme hunger it's just that we get tired you get thirsty this is how the month of Ramadan the wisdom of this month is that you get thirsty you have to get the feeling of thirst and hunger and we have a Hadith for that that the Imam A.S. says that is to feel that feeling with those who are in poverty who don't have the bread in their dinner time for example to eat and they sleep hungry for example the idea of the fasting is to make us to feel the hunger and the thirst so there's no excuse no if you have exams if you're revising for the exams you got coursework to do for example you still have to fast and if the one who's working let's say in construction or teaching or anything else with regard to working practice they must fast they must continue their fast from the Fajr to the month of Ramadan unless as I've said it goes extreme and they really needed to break their fast due to difficulty and continuation of the fasting otherwise if they feel well then they're not allowed to break their fast Shesma wait if a student turns around and says well I'm fasting I can't concentrate in my lessons I've got exams coming I've got a big project to finish I need food and drink to keep my mind working is this a valid excuse not to fast well again there's no excuse for them to break their fast however there is a solution for that they can actually travel on that day let's say they have it on the exam day they can travel outside their hometown by traveling 45 km in and out so they go outside their own city or village they travel when they reach that destination they can break their fast in the morning break their fast and then they come back home and they become a rule of travel as a traveler and they can drink and eat that's fine in this situation they can overcome this situation so traveling on that day break your fast in travel and then come back and then do their exam or whatever they had to do and they have to of course afterwards after the month from dawn to do the Qada of that a particular day that they broke their fast due to an excuse which is to suffer and travel Shaykhna what if I was keeping a fast and suddenly I felt very very thirsty extremely thirsty I drank a cup of water and I continued my fast is my fast still valid and if not do I have to do Qada or pay a Qafar for that again if it was extreme thirst extreme hunger you know almost losing you know fainting for example all these conditions allow you to be up fast that's fine drink that water but make sure that you do the Qada afterwards and there's no Qafar but if it was deliberate and it's just because of feeling a bit tired or a bit thirst then that will make the fast void and battle and with Qafar as well because you walk it deliberately and that's not an excuse that I'm feeling thirsty I'm feeling tired and into drink to eat that will make the one to pay Qafar as well but in extreme situations no it's just the Qaba and Shaykhna in regards to something going down your throat I remember we discussed about dust thick dust going and smoke and steam Shaykhna what about when I put on perfume you said it was musta haab to wear perfume for someone who's fasting to wear perfume so I spray a bit here here sometimes the smell goes down your throat sometimes you can taste the smell does this invalidate the fast? well you have to make sure and be careful when you use the perfume that the when you spray the perfume make sure that nothing of those sprays and the liquids reaches your thought so you spray it on your clothes let's say for example even if you feel the taste let's say in your throat but it wasn't actually the drops or the sprays it's just the smell just the scent in your nose in your throat that's fine as long as there's no particles of that spray of liquid went inside your throat so that's fine I mean even if you smell the creams or using shampoo let's say yeah that's fine the smell is a smell it doesn't break the fast what about if you're going let's say in Ramadan I don't know where this happens but you can smell everything you can smell all the food especially when you walk past a restaurant or a bakery and you can smell that fresh bread and that smell and sometimes your mouth starts to water as well does this invalidate the fast? not at all these are not part of the invalidators of fast as we mentioned we have 10 main ones and the smellings would not break the fast be it food be it anything else and you've mentioned the mkruhat some of the plants it's mkruhat to smell them but it won't break your fast but it's mkruhat to smell them some of the plants you know it's got nice scent but otherwise whatever you smell good or bad will not break your fast that's it Shaykhana you were talking about immerse one's head in water invalidates the fast what about when we have a shower and there's water on our head all the time and then we're showering or we get shampoo we put shampoo all over our head does this invalidate the fast? what does the difference between immersing and taking a shower immerse is to put your head entire head inside a bucket of water inside a pool inside a pond the seawater to go the whole thing inside so you're talking about massive water immersion exactly full immersion exactly taking a shower that's not immersion that's different that's different subject that's more like applying water to you you apply water on your head that's fine and let it be all together straight away that's fine the immersion is the one in which invalidates the fast that's it Shaykhana my final question is it better for us to do the wozoo and go pray the salah should we open our fast? well in this case it is mustahab for the one to pray first it's better to pray first of course to begin with the salah and then you go and eat however if if you are in a situation that you want to be able to pay attention to the salah in the salah you say Allah Akbar and you think about the food and when I'm going to finish my salah and you try to finish it quickly to go and eat in this case and in the other case is where you have somebody waiting for you let's say your parents your family a guest waiting for you on the dinner table so for these two cases no it's better to eat first and then you pray afterwards but the general rule is that to pray first is the best option thank you very much Shaykhana and thank you to all our views for joining us on today's episode إن شاء الله you've benefited and you'll be able to focus properly in your prayer إن شاء الله until the next episode السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته