Hello and welcome to Mechanics Institute's Writers' Lunch. We hold our Writers' Lunches every third Friday of the month, and we are glad that you are joining us for our August Writers' Lunch on balancing, authorship, and publishing with our two fabulous speakers, Ginny Grossenbacher and Osiris, with our fabulous moderator Cheryl Bise Boutet. My name is Alyssa Stone. I'm the Senior Director of Programs and Community Engagement here at Mechanics Institute, and I'm very happy to welcome you all on this lovely Friday. I hope everyone's doing well from wherever you are joining us from. For those who are less familiar with Mechanics Institute, we were founded in 1854. Mechanics Institute is a historical landmark, cultural center, gorgeous library, world-renowned chess program, and events center. We do anywhere from five to 15 events per week with our writers and reading community, our chess community, Cinema Lit. We have all sorts of fabulous events, both online and on-site at Mechanics Institute, so we hope that you'll check out more programming with us at milibrary.org and we hope to see you again at another Mechanics Institute event. We also offer free tours every Wednesday at noon. If you are new to Mechanics Institute or it's been a while since you've come by, join us on a Wednesday tour. It's a fabulous way of seeing the entire building, all of its fabulous nooks and crannies, and learning about our history and our contemporary offerings. Of course, please mark your calendars for the Writers' Lunch next month on Friday, September 15th for the topic, The Art of the Anthology, moderated by Cheryl B. Zé Boute. This session will feature EA Provost from New Alexandria Creative Group, Jennifer Bacier-Sander from Big City Books Group, and Sarah Beale from Colossus Press, and I will add that link to the chat shortly as well, so you can all get yourself registered for the next Writers' Lunch that we offer. I am pleased to do some brief introductions for our featured guests today. We have, of course, the Woman of the Hour, our award-winning author and push cart nominee, Cheryl J. Boute, who is an Oakland multidisciplinary writer, whose autobiographical and fictional short story collections, along with her lyrical and stunning poetry, artfully succeed in getting across deeper meanings about the politics of race and economics, without breaking out of the narrative. An inaugural Oakland Poet Laureate runner-up, she is also a popular teacher, literary reader, presenter, storyteller, curator, and emcee host for literary and poetry events. We are always pleased to have Cheryl as our moderator for the Writers' Lunch. We have our two guests today, Ginny Grossenbacher, Masters of Education, novelist, poet, certified editor, educator, and publisher, who founded Elk Grove Writers and Artists in 2012, and J. G. K. S. Press in 2017. Ginny brings 36 years of experience teaching English language, arts to adolescents and adults, and Ginny is an award-winning indie poet, historical novelist, and forensic historian, and a certified copy editor. She is an experienced conference presenter and a favorite speaker at book clubs, fairs, and festivals. And we have award-winning author, Osiris, who has written and published books such as his award-winning poetry book, Sacred, and his children's book, Goodbye, John, via his imprint, Osiris, Inc. Publishing. Osiris is a storyteller who primarily focuses his books on poetry and children's stories. However, he has written a romantic novel, graphic novel, and a psychological thriller to be published in the future. We are very grateful to have Ginny and Osiris joining our conversation with Cheryl today, and with that, I will pass it to Cheryl. Welcome, everyone. Thank you, Alyssa, so much, and thank you, McCavings Institute. And also thank you, Ginny and Osiris, for being with us today. I hope to have a really wonderful, in-depth, and informative conversation with you both. As you know, it's often very difficult for writers to get published by large mainstream publishers. And as one of those writers, who's an indie writer, self-published, I am very, very thankful for the small independent presses like yours and for the work you do as writers in the community and publishers to support authors like me. And I guess my first question for you is if I were envisioning going out on that limb of the publishing limb and not just the writing limb, which came first for you, writing or publishing? And then how did you put them together? Osiris, can you take that on first? Osiris? There we go. Am I good? Yeah, you're good. Okay, I'm talking to myself over here. Oh, I'm having a good conversation, huh? Yes, ma'am, yep. So I started off with writing first. The idea of publishing a book, are you talking about just publishing a book or becoming a publisher itself? I'm talking about how did you put together writing and being an author and then being a publisher? How did you meld them together and which came first for you? Oh, okay, thank you for clarifying that. Yes, so I did writing first. Decided to just, you know, create some stories. I don't have multiple ideas of wanting to do some sort of poetry since I've been writing for many years prior to that. The idea to even do it as a publisher didn't really resonate until I was doing a lot of research on if I wanted to go on a traditional publishing route or the self-publishing route. In that research, I was learning that there's not really a big difference in terms of being the author and being the marketer for it.  You might have a marketing team with a traditional publishing, but it's still you as the author that's going out. So I guess I intertwined both me doing the writing and just doing some research on, hey, what can I actually, how can I blend the two together? And I suppose that's how I did it. Wow, that's really interesting. How about you, Jenny? Well, I've always written, right? Probably just like Osiris. I mean, when I was a little girl, I used to write up little scripts for us to dress up in my sister's big sister's clothes and clump around in their high heels and all the kids in the neighborhood would come over for the plays. And I always wrote little stories, poems and all that. And I was an English major. And so, it was always in my bones to write. And so as an English teacher, I wrote with my students, then I got an agent when I retired from teaching and I decided I wanted to go traditional. Well, we were read by 10 publishing houses. This was my first novel. And each one said, well, you're more of a mid-list author and we're only publishing really sort of what's cutting edge right now and you are going to be competing against. And then they gave me all the big names and they said, you're not quite at that place. And my agent suggested to me after a year of trying to get published that I might consider founding my own press.  And this was in 2017. So writing clubs were still at that place where traditional publishing was cachet. Self-publishing was still a little bit tainted by vanity presses. And, but I had enough encouragement from people who had done the step before and they kind of guided me. And so I published Madam of My Heart, my first one and found it to be really interesting, an interesting journey. I had to get out there. I know Osiris gets out there too because that's where we met was the Berkeley Book Fest. But that whole idea of meeting your readers, meeting the public, talking to people about your books. And I find that to be very satisfying. It's scary at times. You're on the edge of your seat wondering when's the next marketing opportunity coming along? But things have opened up now and the taint is off the whole idea of self-publishing now. And founding your own press and working with other authors, it's really joyful. So Jen, just as a follow-on and I'll ask you this also Osiris, how important or what is the difference between self-publishing and having an imprint as a writer? You hear those terms all the time. So, what's the difference? Well, when I examined the difference for myself, I had to have in mind my future. What was it that I wanted? And I wanted to found an imprint so that I could publish other people as well. And I was in a place, which I'm sure Osiris is too, where we have a community, that we work with, whether or not it's colleagues that we write with, we have some kind of writing community that is around us. And so many of them wanted help editing, they wanted help critiquing, they wanted help publishing. And so I said, well, gee, if I found a small boutique press, then maybe I can publish their work as well and help them on their journey. So I sort of expanded my vision from just myself to then being able to help my writing community, which is what I did. And Osiris, what's the difference between self-publishing with your name on the book that you're writing and an imprint? For me, it's actually pretty similar as well to Jenny's, but for my reason, I wanted to have ownership entirely of my work. From the copyright to the trademark of my logo and to being able to go out and do things without the worry of them, like bookstore owners or store managers asking, hey, well, we actually got to run this through the publishing company in order to get permission to put this particular book into our bookstore. Well, I'm actually the person in charge of it is my imprint and being able to have the freedom to do things like that as well. And also giving other people opportunities like my sister-in-law who had always wanted to be a writer, her name is Erica Reyes, she had always wanted to be a writer, but never really had the means to go about trying to publish a book. And so I told her, hey, I can help you. I can get, and I'm not gonna ask for any money or anything like that. I'll help you the entire process and just being able to provide a platform for others to share their story.  And she had a story that she wanted to tell, and I'm not sure if she would have gotten that same opportunity, has she gone the self-publishing route without actually having knowledge of how to market it, having knowledge on how to promote herself or even having knowledge on how to write and where to go. And so for me, just having my own imprint gets the biggest difference is if it's just me, Osiris, as the author, it doesn't really differentiate me from anybody else. That's also an author. And not to discredit that because I think that's awesome as well. I kind of look at Tyler Perry as a source of motivation of he said to build your own table. And so that's what I did as well. Built my own imprint, aka my own tape, my own table and put all my things in it and helping out others as well. Oh, it's wonderful information, both of you. Thank you. You're both prolific authors as well. So, and Osiris, I'll ask you first. What techniques do you use or employ to achieve balance between your writing life and your publishing life? Oh, man. It's actually really tricky because I also have to incorporate my military lifestyle into it as well. Right, right. And then my children. And your daddy, in your daddy lifestyle. Yes, daddy lifestyle, hubby lifestyle. So a lot of the times I do my writing in the morning, like roughly between like 3 to 3.30 up until about 6.30 to 7 o'clock and I'll get my exercise things going. But in between that window is where I'm focusing primarily on my writing. And it took a lot of time to even get that discipline down and the routine to follow. And then later in the day, like during the day is where I try to focus on, of course I'm trying to balance the military now with the publishing side where the marketing and where we go from there. But most of the time the marketing is after work, after my workday. So let's say like five o'clock, maybe until around eight is where I'm trying to like sneak in a little bit of publishing or things in that regards where I can focus more as a publisher than a writer. The idea of writing and editing and any of that stuff for my particular work I have to shove it to the side. I always heard just one of these publishers on one of these authors I had met. She had mentioned that writing or the book industry is pretty much 50% writing and 50% everything else as a marketer. Right, exactly. And Jenny, how about you? What techniques do you use to achieve balance? I mean, you have so many books out there, so many wonderful books. Well, what I found over the years and I think it's a matter of developing, right? Because life presents challenges to us and we're not the same people we were three years ago. I mean, pandemic proves that. So I think what the deal is for me to achieve balance is I have to be disciplined. And if I do not write my own work in the morning as Osiris does, I don't feel good the rest of the day. It doesn't matter how many people I've helped publish or how many classes I've taught, it's all about my writing. I had to realize that after going through a burnout and a depression that if I don't feed my soul, nothing else will matter. And I also have a husband who has health issues. I have a brand new puppy because I lost my Murphy who was my riding dog. And so now we have a brand new puppy chewing up my house. And of course I have three grandchildren and one on the way. And so I have to be disciplined. And what I found is, and I know I'm pitching this, okay, for him, but Cal Newport has this organizer out that it's called the Time Block Planner. And I just, you know, everybody finds what they want to help them, but this is just great because it's bigger than my calendar and it gives you room for tasks and ideas and room to jot down whatever it is you're having to work on. And I found that it's much better than these lists that I was keeping, which go on for pages, right? And then by the time I finished, they're all mixed up. Like I might have called Cheryl in the first segment and then, but then there's something having to do with Cheryl like 12 things down. And I thought, I can't be doing this listing thing, it's just not working. So the Time Block Planner is helpful because if you have these projects, like let's say I'm working on a poetry book for someone or I'm working on producing a novel for someone and all those related tasks, I can keep them in one time block. And then I can just move that over to whatever date I'm working on it. And you need an organizer like that because otherwise, well, I don't even wanna show you my desk, everybody, but my desk is a mess and I have to have someplace I can go that is not my desk. Understood. So what have been some of the pitfalls that you have encountered in doing the publishing and the writing? I don't know who you wanna open up to that. Like, I suppose I'll, I can go first. I know Jenny has far more experience. So she, I'm interested in hearing her story as well. For me, the pitfall, a lot of the pitfalls just came from pure exhaustion with everything, trying to find a balance with so much. Like I have to get up so early in order to even, in order to feed my spirit with things that I wanna do. It's the only time where I have peace and quiet is in the morning. And that can be exhausting because a lot of times my children and in work and in the hustle of the military's lifestyle will keep you drained. I work in a mental health clinic and I do substance abuse counseling. So a lot of that, it's draining, it's emotionally draining and then trying to come home and then take care of your family, which is also us fulfilling. But the pitfalls for me is just, I think it came from one, exhaustion, two, not seeing things materialize like you would hope you wait weeks, sometimes months and sometimes even some years before you even see any sort of results and it can be really debilitating. You can lose a lot of motivation. I'm intrinsically motivated, but even then, I oftentimes will question, is this even going to be something that people will gravitate to? Is what I'm trying to put out this message of what I'm trying to put out to the world, will it even materialize it? Then when I have it out, will there be people that comes and then there's that whole other aspect of trying to advertise and continuously market yourself and when it begins to begin, it can be so much like, I remember when I actually met both yourself and Jenny and we were at Berkeley in that Bay Area Book Festival and I remember I didn't even get to stay the whole time because I had to go back home and take care of my children. I think one of them was sick at the time and then I had to get prepared for work the following day. So I would say my pitfalls just come from exhaustion of trying to really try to find balance between writing, husband, father, military, which is like this and then myself. So what would you say has been your greatest reward? Oh, as an author or just in general? Just as an author and a publisher. What would you put at the top of the list as your greatest reward? People actually, I say one of them is Barnes and Noble. Being able to get my book and to like get it myself, I always heard that was one of the hardest things to do with traditional publishers. I had to actually reach out and see and they were going to traditionally publisher or they needed traditional publishers to get their books into their bookstores. So that was one of the biggest rewards was being able to get myself and all my hard work and sleep was nice and research of trying to fight to get my stuff into that bookstore just so I know the message can spread across the world a lot more, that was one of the biggest rewards I would say that I have as an author. I wanna come back to that story, by the way. But let me get Jenny in here and then I wanna come back to that. I want you to tell that story briefly of how you got into Barnes and Noble because I see there's a question that has popped up that people, someone wants to know a little bit more about the business aspects. And I think that story gets a little bit more into that particular question. So Jenny, what have been some of your pitfalls and your most wonderful reward? So the positives of course are being able to to take someone who has never been published and put them into print. And I'm also a copy editor. So, and I got my copy editing certificate from UC San Diego. And I found that that was very important because copy editing isn't just about grammar correction. It's a lot about style and it's a lot about helping an author provide you with a manuscript and then helping them prepare it so that the general public as Cyrus is saying in Barnes and Noble will pick our books up and not compare it to a traditionally published book to have a book with our imprint and all of the contents that mimic, if you will, a traditionally published book. And that is definitely possible through us. And that's what we aim to guarantee. So I think that is my greatest reward is having achieved this for people. But the pitfalls for me always lie in getting information out, in advertising. That seems to be not just the hardest thing for me but also the lowest priority. And it actually is the most important thing is to keep your message going, not only about yourself as the author but also about your publishing. And so what's happened for me is the writing community that I'm involved with, the people that I teach through my writers and artists classes, they have become the community that essentially provide me with the task of publication. So that, because I'm not sure even at this time, if I could handle more than three contracts a year, you know, either for copy editing or for publication because there's a lot of work involved. And I'm a boutique press, meaning I want my standards to be extremely high and I want the things that we all want, that our books look so professional. Yeah, very, very true. That professionalism is important. And that kind of segues right into the story I want Osiris to tell. If you could tell us briefly Osiris, you know, we're talking about the marketing and the business of doing all of this.  And one of the places that it's seen, of course, is still in the bookstores. So Osiris, how did you get your book into Barnes and Noble? Oh man, so this one, this was hard. This was, I mean, like nothing comes easy. And I think the easier it is, the more, I guess, the less attracted I am to it. I like difficulties, but with Barnes and Noble, I had to, one, have all the materials you need that traditionally published book has. That includes the barcode on the back, the ISBN, that includes the copyright page, that includes making sure the format was correctly. The only thing I did differently with my book was in my poetry book, Sacred, I don't have it page numbered. And that was actually done intentionally. My idea behind it was I didn't want it to be, anyone's ripping through, reading through, and say, hey, I'm on page 20. How many more pages do I have left into page 40? Or anything like that. I just wanted it to be kind of like a picture book where you open it, you read it, and you can close it, bookmark it, and boom. But I had to go one, find a store, find the Barnes and Noble that I was interested in, which was the one in Roseville, California. That's the one that's closest to where I live at. So I reached out to Roseville via phone, talked to them over the phone. They said, hey, they gave me an email and they say just talk to the store manager through the email, see what you want to do. So I sent the email to that store manager like roughly in January or February. Didn't hear anything back.  People are more prone to actually like give you a response face to face. And I'm a really friendly person. And so I just walked in, I was asking, hey, can we seek to the store manager? Want to talk to he or she about potentially getting my book into your bookstore. So they went and got the store manager. I spoke with her. She said, hey, right now we aren't accepting. Right now we aren't accepting any sort of books. So reach back to the window. They said, right now we're not accepting any sort of authors in their books. So please reach out to us in March time frame. So they were going through a different phase. I think the way that they were getting books in from independently published companies and on indie authors, it ceased at least nationwide. And so in March, I came there in March, talked to them again. They asked for my ISBN. They asked for the book. They needed at least three copies of the book because I think they wanted to review it. Then they needed the ISBN and that whole package. So I know it's kind of a little bit long-winded, but I guess to kind of shorten the story, I had to pretty much sell myself and tell them this. And I came there with everything. So like the book, so this right here for those who are watching this bar code so on this website called balker.com is where most publishing companies, they go through and they purchase ISBNs there in bulk and they also purchase bar codes. It's important to have your own bar code, especially if you're independently published or at least self-published because you can just bring it to the bookstore because they need something to scan it in and you need to have your own ISBN that's recognized across the country. Otherwise many people go through like Amazon and they go through different things and it gives you their own ISBN and it's multiple attached. So yeah, so after that conversation with them, they gave me a shot and it worked out. It worked being long-winded. It sure did. Yeah, so now I'm in three bars of Nobles as of yesterday. Oh, that is so cool, congratulations. Yeah, thank you. Jenny, do you have a business-related story? Anything to add? Well, you know, I, let's see, business-related story. Anything to add? Oh, okay.  With my calendaring because I've had people approach me to publish or to copy edit.   Well, you can't really do that. I mean, you can't just promise your friends the world because the calendar rules. So, so I have learned that I have to segment out. I have just as, as regular editors do, you have to have a queue and people have to make a deposit for whatever work that they want you to do, whether it is copy editing or if they want you to publish the book. And it takes time. You also have to remind the authors that this is not an overnight thing because some authors, they're not, they just wanna flip the switch and they're gonna be on Amazon and forget it. So I, you know, I always remind them if you want the quality and you want to have a copy editing done and you wanna have this really beautiful book to present then it is going to take more time. So there's a whole conversation that has to take place between the publisher and the author. That's really important also to tell people that the average self-published author in America sells a hundred books or fewer. And that's a cruel reality but there are so many books published every year. I don't even know what the number is anymore. I used to know it used to be 500,000 but I, you know, I would have to check to see how many books are published on Amazon every year but it's something like that. And so, you know, who are you or me in comparison to all these fish in the sea? So you have to really have that quality book ready. So that's the other thing publishing related that I wanted to add. Also in terms of Barnes and Noble and so forth, now if you publish on IngramSpark they will IngramSpark as well as Amazon, you will be able to cover your regular bookstores like Barnes and Noble and also your small independent bookstores. And they will be able to order from the Ingram catalog. So that is something also to know. And I agree with Osiris that you go into the ocean of Barnes and Noble and ask for them to carry your book. I've done that myself and it is, you know, let's put it this way. I had to have my big girl boots on, you know, because you have to really show them the quality of what it is you do. Yeah, so true, so true. So, Alyssa, do we have any questions in the chat? I see a couple that popped up. We are popping off in the chat. We have lots of juicy questions today for this fabulous conversation. I've used the word fabulous too many times. I have to stop, but it's a great combo and a really interesting topic. And so we have a lot of participants with questions. Some that the topics have been touched on a little bit but I'll just go in order that they've arrived and we can cover as much as possible. Our first question in the chat comes from Bettina. How far away do Ginny and Osiris travel to promote their books? Do they only go to local events such as the Berkeley Book Festival? So whichever one of you would like to do that one first? Farthest I've gone, oops. The farthest I've gone is Colorado. I went to the Historical Novel Society Conference and had my books at a table there and I was on a panel. I have also gone to Texas and Santa Fe. But I think it's not even a matter of how far you go but what it is you want to achieve. For example, I love the Bay Area audiences because for historical fiction, they tend to love the history and I do write about San Francisco. So I have a purpose in doing Bay Area events because I know that so many of the readers are familiar with the places I write about in the history. So I think you kind of have to decide where it is you want to be. My friend, Nara Gard, who is a well-known author and has won many awards, she has a connection with Chicago because that is where she grew up, went to college and her books take place in Chicago, you see? So I think it's determining where your audience is. And Osiris, how far have you gone? Physically, it was actually it was Berkeley where I met you both. I did do like a virtual event that went, that was based out of New York. It was poetry based, but yeah, actually physically going and promoting, I mean, I did promote it there too, but physically going and promoting it with people it was Berkeley, which for me is about three hours from where I live at right now. Yeah. It was fun. It was a lot of fun. I had a good time. I can't remember if it was how many hours it was. Cause again, like I mentioned early, I didn't get to stay for the entire thing, but yes. And it was worth it too. Oh, yes it was. Yes it was. Did we have any more questions to listen in the chat? Lots of questions. Okay. This was touched on a smidge, but maybe it could be expanded upon. Our question comes from Gabrielle. I would like to know more on the business of publishing and marketing. Can the author speak on how to do this side of the equation? As writers, we all know how to write. It's the other part we need help from experienced people. Yeah, okay. So for me, that actually was another piece that I had struggled with for a long time and I'm just now getting better at it. But for me, I'd say one, you gotta know your audience. I once heard a phrase that if you're doing it for, if you're doing it for everyone, you're really doing it for no one. So you gotta be specific as to who you're targeting. So like for my children's book, we just wait, never say my poetry books. There's an audience and what age range. So for me, I knew that this particular children's book was from zero to eight. Okay, cool. So this demographic is I can hit children that's in school. Well, sorry. Let me rephrase that, not hit children, but I can like speak with children that is in an elementary school. That's my demographic right there for that book. Okay. Now I know who to market to. Now I know how do I need to make the promotional work. Okay, cool. This is gonna come maybe using big bold letters, colorful letters, things that grabs children's attention. For poetry, what type of poetry am I doing? My stuff really focuses more on motivation and also mental health issues. Okay, so now we gotta get out of window of what age range really does this applicable to? And then you just kind of go from there. And then also knowing where you wanna go. Do you excel better with social media promotions? Do you do better with actually face-to-face promotions? Kind of like going out to festivals and having those marketing opportunities. And do you have business partners or do you know people in the business who may know other people that, hey, do you mind helping me out? I can help you out vice versa. So I don't know if that necessarily answers the question, but it's really what matters most is one, knowing your audience. Two, knowing where the audience actually lies at. So I would say, I would encourage people to do, maybe go to YouTube, look on social media and then see what those authors are doing and see how they're doing it. And then maybe emulate what they're doing until you find your own style and then kind of just grow from there. That's what I did. Good advice. How about you, Jenny? Well, I like Facebook. To me, and I think that's the one thing, you have to find what fits your personality. I'm just not a Twitter girl. I've tried Twitter, I've tried Twitter ads. And I like interaction. I like a little more comments. I like to carry on just like today. I like a conversation. So Facebook fits me and I really like Facebook groups. And I have found, for example, the Tattered Pages author group. And on Wednesdays, they do allow you to post something about yourself, something about your writing. And that's not the only Facebook group.  For, and Cyrus has touched on this with, whether you're writing children's books or whether you're writing literary fiction, you have to know where your readers are and also where the writers are. So I really try to narrow that down with Facebook groups. And I just did a lot of experimental searches until I could find these groups and then abide by their rules, join them and make myself a positive member. So you do that by not abandoning these people. You have to be there a lot. And for example, Tattered Pages runs these special events where you actually can make up fun advertisements for your work or for the work of whoever you're publishing, if you're a publisher. And that garners attention. You can actually offer freebies and run little contests. If somebody asks so many questions in the comment, then they get a free book. And of course, so many of them, you can run these specials so that it also garners readership. And then these people will friend you and so forth. And the same people are on Instagram. And I now have heard that, and I'm woefully behind on this, but I know Facebook is now also running a form of Twitter so that it could carry over to that. But everybody has their different ways. Some people love YouTube. I have a group, I mean, I have a writing group member who absolutely loves YouTube and she has all sorts of videos on YouTube. So it sort of depends on, as Osiris was saying, it depends on your audience and it depends on your purpose. And then it also depends on the subject matter you're covering in your book. And whether or not your voice finds an affinity out there with other groups of people. And you have to be really razor sharp focused on that affinity because you can waste a lot of time trying to market to places that will never have an interest in what you're saying. And everyone has something interesting to say. Just find the, just you need to work to find the places where it resonates more on the chat, Alyssa. Absolutely. And just because of time and there's so many juicy questions I'm going to be a little judicious and try to combine a couple of topics if that's okay. Sure. A little bit of a combo question from our participants, Laurel and Jen about how to anticipate your work both as a writer, as an author and a publisher and what are you asking aspiring authors in order to ascertain at what point their manuscript is at? So I thought that might be an interesting combo. Oh, wow. That's a good one. Okay. So how to anticipate? Are they asking like how to anticipate if it's going to be good or anticipating like when it's going to release? Not exactly sure the intention. The original question was, this is fabulous. So also using that word of the day. Thank you. Can you share how you anticipate your work as an author and publisher will be affected by the upcoming AI effects? And then, Ginny, what do you ask aspiring authors in order to ascertain at what point their manuscript is at? I ask you as a copy editor what does that line of questioning look like? So, okay. So I'll take that one, Osiris, and then maybe you can handle the other part. Okay. As a copy editor, I need to have a manuscript to look at that is as good as the author can make it. That is professionally done. That is formatted in 12 font times, New Roman, 0.5 margins on all sides is paginated, and is the author's best work up to that point. So that work should have gone through a critique group, have gone through at least a first and second draft if we're lucky. And, you know, have really been vetted before hitting the eyes of a copy editor, because the copy editor will take the first 30 pages and will make a decision as to whether or not they accept the work based on that first 30 pages. And the copy editor, very much like an acquisitions editor at a publishing house, makes a decision as to whether or not they'll accept the work based on that. So a lot of people are not aware of that, and they just think, oh, I'll just submit this to a copy editor, they'll take it and whatever, it's not that way. Copy editors have been, generally, especially the quality copy editor has had a lot of training and has been trained to do this work, this very close work.  That's really good. Okay, thank you for having on that part. The first answer and the first half of the question as far as like how to anticipate, unlike I guess the future of this AI, I'd say that I guess the biggest challenge that might come with the world of AI is the production rate for which the books would be produced. So like, I don't know, I've never actually used one of those AI programs before, but from what I've heard, you can spit in some sort of a subject matter in a specific program that's AI-based and it can just generate whatever you need it to generate. And I don't think there's purity in that in comparison to the actual human behind the work. Now, maybe the person who's, I guess where the AI work is going into, maybe there could be some apprehension as to how can I compete with an AI, but the AI can't go out there and promote itself. The AI can't go out there and touch people and it can't meet readers. The AI can't do that stuff. Yeah, it can produce the work, but AI's voices may or may not sound a little similar as long as you as the author know that you can produce, you have your own voice, your own unique voice and you also get out there, put a face to the name, get behind the camera, get out there and be in person. That is what would separate you as the author from the AI. So I guess in short, anticipating AI's work, just know it's coming, but just know it can't compete with actual people and the author behind the work. Hope that answers that. And I would echo that. I think that we know it's coming, it's gonna be used for a lot of different reasons, purposes. Some people use it as a tool, some people use it as a substitute, but as Osiris has just said, it can never substitute for the human purpose, the human person, the voice inside the soul and it will never have your individual voice, which is what you as a writer bring to the art. I would also like to say about AI that, that AI has a recognizable, it's interesting, it's a recognizable lack of tone. So for example, because I have experimented with it, I mean, I have to, I'm a copy editor, I have to know what's going on in the world of editing and publishing and I have to know what's happening with AI. So I've been really experimenting. And let's say you put in to AI, write a scene between John and Mary as they discuss the renovation of their garage. What's going to happen is it's going to spin out something that at face value looks pretty good, but when you break it down, as Osiris was pointing out, it doesn't have voice, it doesn't have a tone, it doesn't really have a purpose. And in essence, it doesn't have a spirit. And so the only reason to look at that would be if, for example, you need ideas. You know, I want to write a scene and I wonder what another person might come up with in terms of this. And then perhaps think, I wonder if that's really how it would be in their dialogue and conversation setting or would I like to do it slightly differently? But there is a danger in copy pasting AI and putting it into your novel in progress because several contests that I have just scanned different book contests are now stating you are immediately disqualified if it is found you used AI in preparation or in the writing of this manuscript. And so you will, I mean, and they will find you because it's not that difficult to do a search even using AI. That's exactly right. Was this paragraph done using AI? Oh, yes. That the voice of the spirit are missing. That you are, that's the correct. Do we have time for one more question, Alyssa? Yeah, I was hoping to just do one more. We've gotten a couple of questions or inquiries about social media. How much social media you're utilizing, what's necessary, when do you know it's enough that it's working?  And maybe that will be our last audience Q&A and then we can begin to wind down. Okay, so for me, this question won't necessarily pertain to me as I don't use social media other than my own website, which I don't know if we're allowed to make mentions of like our websites or the team like that on here. Will I be able to share a link actually so people can go there? Put it in the chat, put it in the chat. Okay, I'll put my stuff in the chat. So I mean, I guess that's a form of social media. Maybe Jenny will probably have more experience with more experience with this. But we can also add, we'll add your websites back in the chat. We did it towards the beginning, but we will definitely do it again before we're finished. So you can focus and we'll pop things in the chat. Thank you so much.  Feel free to subscribe, put your email there, and then I can always talk to you all separate. But as far as I go, different authors who I've met that actually use social media, they said that it helps them keep a real close connection with their reader. The one thing I will recommend is if you are going to do social media, accompany that with an actual website that you own the domain to. Because if anything happens to those social media platforms, and it can happen, they can snatch away or they can do something can go wrong. And then all of a sudden, the audience that you have with your social media will go and go bye-bye. And if you don't have your own website where you can actually direct your readers to, there's no way that they can keep up with you. You'll end up just falling off into the abyss, if you will. So I would say that social media has been helpful for people who also have a website. And I will say, just whatever website you feel is good or whatever social media platform. For me, I'm actually starting to do it with YouTube. I used to do YouTube a year ago. And it's kind of like what Jay said, that interaction, I like to be able to talk and I feel like people can see me. Go with where you know it can be effective. I know TikTok is a pretty big thing right now too. But go with where you're comfortable and where you feel is the most effective. But again, I can't necessarily speak from actual experience with social media. I can't speak, however, from having my own website and telling, and I can tell you that having your own website, having a dedicated email list that people go to your website and sign up for. And you keep in contact with them. I generally try to send out weekly to bi-weekly emails just to keep people abreast of what's going on and let them know this is what's coming, this is what I've got work going on. This is my family. And these are the different things that's happening. So yeah, I'll say that. Just if you have social media, accompany that with a website. Great. I like that. Yeah. I also really would echo how do you know it's working is when you see the bumps in your sales. Amazon provides you with that information readily. So once your book is up on Amazon, you're going to see immediately. So let's say you do a Facebook advertisement or Amazon also has opportunities for you to run specials on your book with various price points. In addition, you can do Amazon ads. And Amazon is very helpful with telling you how to do that. And so in addition to those, because you're going to see bumps in your sales, depending on the effort that you do online with your marketing. And also I would echo Osiris. The email list is absolutely crucial. And so I use MailChimp because it allows you to have 500 email followers. But you might want to check because they're very competitive. Actually, had I known this, I would have started my email newsletter before I ever published. Yeah. I really would have. Yeah. I would have started garnering followers, just sending it out to friends and saying, please share this newsletter with, and just tell them about your journey as an aspiring author.  That's the most important thing. I would also suggest that when you do your website and you do your lists and your YouTube and whatever, make sure that you link every link to the link, to the link, to the link. Link it all up so that you have a flow that no matter where people go, they can connect to another link that shows another aspect of you and your work. I wanted to add to that too, Cheryl, is there's this website called books2read.com. On there, you can actually put, you go straight to that website, you can have all the links pretty much compiled into one. It'll be separate by per icon as well. So that's also an option. The other thing I wanted to say as well is if you are gonna just do your, I know we're pretty short, so I'm sorry, I wanted to say it real quick. If you are pretty short on time with, not short on time, if you are looking to do your own email list, I would say try not, I wouldn't get in the rhythm of sending out every week if you don't necessarily have something to say. It can also become spam in a sense. And so this is just in my opinion that if you are gonna say, I would say at least bi-weekly and at least have some sort of content to produce and make sure that the people that's like reading your material, you kind of give them some sort of incentive with it, like, hey, if you sign up for my thing, I'll give you all free copies. Maybe you can all review my book, which also, once your book is published, you wanna continuously promote that. I saw Stephen King, not in person, recently, he still promotes his book carry. He still promotes a lot of his old books. That's right. So you always wanna continuously promote your books every step of the way. And you also, the lifeline of your books will be the reviews. And I'm not saying Barnes & Noble's website will be the spot. Many people buy their books from Barnes & Noble, a great deal of others. A lot of them buy them from Amazon. You might hear a lot of authors say, hey, can I get a review from you on my Amazon account? Meanwhile, you look on Barnes & Noble's website and you don't have any reviews. But in person, your books are actually selling well there. So I would say just keep promoting yourself at all times and sell yourself and take a chance on yourself. And then that's all I got. Oh, thank you so much. So any closing thoughts from either of you? I just wanna say, give my thanks to Alyssa, to Niko for helping make this possible to the Mechanics Institute, who are so important in such a long history in San Francisco, to Osiris for all of his wisdom. And I wanna thank Cheryl B. Sputay, my good associate friend and fellow author for such a warm environment. And thanks to all of you who came in and provided those wonderful questions today. And thank you. Yes, and yes, Deep, I wanna just, I also wanna echo that it was great meeting you both, Jenny and Cheryl, back in Berkeley. Hopefully we can do more things together. Thank you as well, Alyssa, for just contacting us and getting this whole thing put together. And those who are attending in the chat, thank you all as well. Me, I'm really grateful to be able to have platforms to just talk to people and spread the word. The reason why I write, the reason why I like to do poetry is I feel like I have a message to say. A lot of things that I talk about is on the verge of mental health issues. In fact, I have another book coming out next month called Dear Sick Mental Virus. And I'll make sure I let everybody know it's a poetry book. And that was specifically about emotional abuse, domestic violence and that whole shebang. And in my children's books, I wanna just tell stories that help children get lost in the world and just have a good time in it. So I just love the space of being around other authors and other people in this medium. And then we always unite. I've never ever since any ill will always feel like it's supportive. And I would say if anybody has a dream, keep pushing. Don't quit and really take a chance on yourself.  And yeah. Thank you both, Jenny and Osiris, for all you do for the writer and the reader. You got it covered. Thank you so much. And thank you, Alyssa. Did the best wrap up we possibly could have imagined. So with that, we'll say a big thank you to Cheryl, our amazing moderator who month after month curates these beautiful conversations with writers from across the community and our two featured guests today, Osiris and Jenny Grossenbacher for joining us. Thank you so much. We hope to see you again at a Mechanics Institute event, either online or in person. Please check out miLibrary.org for more information. Have a wonderful rest of your day. Keep pushing, keep hustling, keep writing and keep connecting with one another. That's what community is all about. Thank you and have a great day. Thank you. Night. Thank you everyone. Thank you all. Bye. Bye Osiris.


I want to take some time in this lecture just to talk about who I think might benefit from this lecture series. I really want to divide the audience or the possible audience into two groups. Now let's look at the first world. Money exists. Research has been done for a long time. Structures are in place. Now an entry into a first world research system such as that might be a tad difficult. It's good when you enter a system like that to have as much knowledge as possible. On the other hand we have the third world where we don't have so many systems, where we don't have the money to do this research. But in many instances we sit with an abundance of data, data to answer many of the research questions that are out there. It's important in these sort of circumstances also to have good knowledge about research. Now what are the aims? Well to do research I think you must have a burning question. A question must exist in your mind and you want an answer to that question. Of course your first step is to go to the literature. Look at what others have done, what answers are out there. If you do not find the answer or you feel that you can contribute to that research question, it's time for you to look at your data and gather some data. Now there's a lot of stuff you have to consider, a lot of logistical information that you have to think about. What variables are you going to choose? They must be chosen so that they answer your research question. They must be accurate. It must be reproducible. And if human beings are involved you've got to consider ethics. You have to protect your patient's identity when you gather data and then it's time to analyze the data.  I hope you enjoy it.


What is going on everybody? We are back with another live moods with live moods on a Monday night We're always here on Monday via the Fandal twitch and YouTube 8 p.m. Eastern time I'm in this weird time zone called mountain time and a lot of people forget about us over here But 8 p.m. Eastern time because I know a lot of you guys are on the East Coast But we are here every single Monday evening to talk all things betting hang out sometimes We're not even talking betting. We're just hanging out having fun If you've been here before you know what we're about around here. We just hang we kick it We have fun. We talk betting. We talk trash. It's just one of those streams. That's just meant to be super Cool casual fun enjoyable and hopefully that's exactly what it is for you guys. So We should have some new faces popping on this week that actually tweeted out at me and said they were gonna join the stream I anticipate most of you have been here before if you're just now hopping in I'm sure we're gonna have some people trickling in we do have a Monday night football game tonight and actually we started Hello, Mario. That's all your familiar name slash face. I don't see your face, but welcome back to another live mood stream I was just telling everybody that we have started doing the Stream rides if you will we had a little bit of technical difficulties today kind of getting everything sorted out Which happens? Hello, it's technology and actually it worked out okay because I did my poll this morning per You know you well, I did my poll Fandle just dropped it in the In the chat for you. I did my poll asking everybody what they liked and let me tell you Rams plus seven and a half and Packers minus seven and a half were neck and neck all morning long right now 826 votes and it is tied at 32 Bandals dropping that link for you guys in the chat if you want to go vote This point I was sitting there going okay, you know normally it's like the stream tells me exactly what they want to ride You guys make it really easy for me, but it was tied all day long now something very interesting We should have a new face popping in here soon Let me send out a tweet to kind of let everybody know we're live give me one second Once you guys know if you've been here before Mad Max. What's up? If you guys have been here before you know I cannot mold my task Cameron welcome back. I live we had a wild Saturday yesterday including or Sunday. Yes, it was I actually went three and one yesterday So I had myself a nice little day, which was awesome. You had some money line. It did hurt my feelings But that 51 yarder by Jared Goff. I did not see that coming Let me just let everybody know that we're live You guys know I cannot mold my task to save my life What is up? master Clout Rashi I Like it if you guys are new here welcome. This is live moods live moods We're here every Monday night talking all things Monday night football all things NBA all things Let's just sweat out some bets together and have some fun we had some technical difficulties this week with the stream ride and I Asked you guys what side you liked in this Monday night football game and it was it's been a tie all day 826 votes tied at 32 percent Rams plus seven and a half Packers minus seven and a half I will tell you a lot of you guys liked Cleveland minus six and a half tonight against the jazz right now that score is Looking nice. So shout out to you guys and then you guys also voted on Bucks to be like in the night. So that was gonna be our little stream parley like I said We ran into some issues, but I wanted to give a quick shout out We should have a new listener in here in a second Andrew and field If you're not here, I Imagine but if you are here, hello Andrew I the votes were actually leaning towards the under in this game Andrew came with some you know Information to back it up and felt very confident. He's also been on a little bit of a heater himself He came very confident with the fact that he believes over 39 and a half is the play so I'm gonna tail him over 39 and a half tonight. He says he likes it. He's been on fire with the NFL lately. So I Don't mind it. We're gonna tail that over 39 and a half as for the game itself Don't know what side I like. I've had mixed feelings on this game all day It's kind of an ugly one in my opinion. Hello, William Bennett. Thank you for joining live moods today But I want to know from you guys really quickly which first touchdown score should I lock in before we get a kickoff here I'm gonna have my producer pull that up if it's not pulled up already First touchdown for not any time first William Bennett says I am going with the under all right, so we're a little we're a little opposite I am just simply tailing Andrew He has followed me on Twitter recently. He's been on a hot streak lately. He interacts with me I told him. Hey, if you drop a play today, I'll tail it. He told me to take the over I'm taking the over first touchdown score The favorite right now Aaron Jones at plus 500 AJ Dylan right behind him at plus 600 Then we've got Christian Watson plus 600 cam acres plus 700 How are you guys feeling for first touch on William Bennett says Christian Watson, I Don't mind it. I don't mind a little sprinkle. I Do not mind a little sprinkle on Christian Watson. All right, William I'm gonna go ahead and tail you then you're the first person to respond and tell me what you like I'm gonna put a nice and easy little $10 on it nothing crazy. Oh, we've also got Cameron mingo saying first touchdown score Christian That is perfect. I'm gonna put $10 on it 10 to win 60 in the Fandalsports book app right now first touchdown Christian Watson. Are there any other? First touchdown scores you guys want me to sprinkle on Mario says I'm passing on the first touchdown last weekend I said Kyler and with 50 seconds in he tore his ACL that was a tough one. You know what Mario though I truly believe The way that he was playing the way that we were seeing that game unfold even that early. I feel like That I feel like it was a great bet. It was just one of those Shit happens type of situations. I guess you could say Okay, so we've got Christian Watson anybody else have any suggestions as to some first Okay mad max Is it worth a little $10 sprinkle because that value sure is nice. Let's see One second See here that little value it Plus 1,000 I'm sprinkling I'm sprinkling. I'm sprinkling 10 to win 100. Yes. I am sprinkling locked it in anybody else Oh aj Dylan. We're just gonna sprinkle on a little bit of everything Okay, if everyone of you ends up being right that's you y'all are getting a big old shout out I've got three now Dylan Alan Christian AJ Christian Allen I like it All right, that's all I'm I'm gonna stop there. I've got my feedback from My streamers my stream watchers. I'm tailing y'all on you. I'm just kidding. Uh, I like it though. I like it William Bennett says it will be me. I love the car.  I am so excited And let's see if we cash on a little first touchdown score play before we wrap it up tonight We're not wrapping it up right now. I'm saying before we wrap it up tonight. Let's see if we can get a First touchdown score. All right. All right. All right Here we go Oh, I think this is this one is in espanol yeah nothing wrong with that but I'm not good enough at spanish to watch the football game in spanish I did take ap spanish Andrew says thanks for the shout out. I'm watching like I said, let's ride the over 39 and a half Can everybody say what's up and welcome to Andrew?  We just hang out. We have fun um, there's never any hostility and if there is It's mutual we go back and forth in the chat We let it out get it out of our systems and then we get to hang out and have some fun and watch some football So andrew you have been uh on a heater in the nfl. So shout out to you. You told me you liked the over tonight I am blindly telling you and putting my trust in you andrew and guess what if it doesn't hit it doesn't hit That's betting. I will not be hostile or upset about it in the slightest But I like the heater that you're on.  William says thank you for the shout out and fandal is the best We love you over here at fandal. Um Yeah, I work for a pretty dope company I gotta tell you it's every person that I've worked with and met through fandal has been incredible And i'm not just saying that because I work for them. They actually know I am overly brutally Obnoxiously honest 90% of the time. Um, but I do I love who I work for They're great people give awesome awesome people for getting fandal and it's a great sportsbook And uh, we've already locked in a couple first touchdown scores In the fandal sportsbook app um Got christian Ellen and aj dillon so Plus 600 plus 1000 plus 600. I put 10 dollars on all of them. I'm not gonna um Go crazy 10 dollars to either win 60 or 100 Because one of those will hit I have absolute faith absolute faith in the bed Um, here we go. This game is going to be starting soon y'all I actually do andrew hope that you are so so right about this over because I feel like we deserve some good football, you know We had a very interesting weekend of football. I went three in one Um, I bet on my denver broncos. Can you believe it? I bet on the denver broncos to not just win but cover that's two and a half point spread They did that for me. I bet the over 47 and a half in the jags cowboys game So proud of myself for handicapping that one loved the over um Which beginning of the season you probably wouldn't have bet the over with those two defenses But they're just not threatening anymore and it ended up being a very high scoring affair, which was awesome so bet the over 47 and a half in that game and then I also bet Steelers on the money line. They were two and a half point dogs. I took them to an outright I grabbed them at plus 160 odds So I was three and oh on my fan dual picks another pick that I talked about With my co-host for the volume was Jets money line and I'm gonna be honest. I locked in jets money line before zack wilson announced the starting cue Would I have still locked in jets money line knowing zack wilson was throwing the ball? Probably not Um, did zack wilson look awful? No. No, we didn't but I I wouldn't have taken the bet I wouldn't have had the courage to take the bet. So unfortunately. I think that the jets they played very well and Uh camera. I'm I'm in the nba. I'm taking pelicans. Okay, so when I did my polls this morning everyone was telling I think the box are winning So um because we weren't able to get our stream ride like locked in and available in the book I will go ahead and say camera and I'm rooting for you Uh, but anyway jets money line was my one loss this and everything else hit and was lovely and then Can we for a second while we wait on this game talk about kirk? F is up with that guy. I mean Hello, this is what happened. I was at home Watching the game And it was 33 zero at half, right? We were all seeing that The lions are hot. They are um, I really was betting on a jets defense to humble them a little bit But the reality is jared goff is playing the best football of his career. There's just no denying it. Um anyway 33 zero I'm like, okay. It's time to go christmas shopping because I've got a lot of ish to do I've got a lot of presents to buy christmas is right around the corner time to get serious about some shopping Good defense right there. Um If I leave I go to the mall for whatever reason our mall does not have good service at all um And so we're standing in a store and I'm like, let me just try to refresh because I did have a Anytime touchdown parlay that did not hit Unfortunately and I was like, let me just refresh it and see if dobbins has scored for me because I knew the other game had started I refresh it. It's 36 36 and overtime. I'm like, what the f Like did I miss something? Obviously I missed a lot I could not believe it like that that game to me was dead done gone. Whoa Whoa There's this thing called tackling in football. Let's try it. Um Actually or not because I'm tailing android and we have the over so feel free to not tackle the rest of the night lions San Francisco eagles are all hot. I'm very interested to see what the eagles team looks like with jail and hertz out this weekend Here's the reality y'all that could happen Any player is subject to get injured at any given moment. That's one thing I think about san francisco that is so Terrifying is their backup is playing outstanding football right now and jimmy g has a has a chance to come back during the playoffs I mean that right there is probably your best weapon in the game is Having a backup that you can trust honestly So many of these teams would be rude If something happened to their quarterback um I'm interested to see what the eagles look like. I am We know jail and hertz is a dog. I mean He is good at football Let's get some points early, right? Ah, Jesus Let him struggle. Um You know who else is hot right now The broncos We take one w and I don't even know how to act anymore. Listen You blame me. It's been the worst 14 weeks of football of my entire life.  Absolutely my goodness the fact that I saw somebody talking about this on tiktok. I think it was Olivia Colpo It was christian mccaffrey's very beautiful, um girlfriend. Let's go mood. What's up? Uh, and she was saying how brock purdy's parents went to that game because they were excited to watch tom brady And then he and then their son ends up starting and not only starting but beating tom brady and like absolutely dominating Could you imagine as a parent like that's insane? Like I think they had purchased tickets in advance and it was like to watch tom brady like that was what they were going for And then they watched their son beat tom brady. I mean, hello. That's the coolest thing ever rooting for niners eagles nfc championship game. So before the season started my Superbowl prediction Was bill's 49ers So we'll see um I have futures tickets on the 49ers to come out of the nfc and the bills to come out of the afc Brock purdy and messy two goats. You're right about that Boys was was in the stands crying their eyeballs. I mean could you Whoa, what a pass. Um Don't really blame them.  I really really am Baker with a strike. Are you watching the game? I am it's got it's pulled up right here Oh true. Did you bet tonight? Um, I didn't uh, we had a little technical difficulty getting the stream ride up and actually The the response of the stream ride was tied all day depot injury, but mccaffrey is that guy you're right He is um, so I didn't I am telling um somebody that's on the stream actually andrew's first time tuning in He likes the over in this game over 39 and a half. So i'm gonna just rock with him How did baker get another job on a Superbowl team? The professional finessor I guess I have no idea All right, he will win out lol, right Like even though the season's over for the team. He should treat it like it's not, you know Oh, it's super cold. I wonder if that will affect the over It won't affect the over for a team like the packers and bakers actually used to playing in cold temperatures. So I don't think so Cleveland's cold Cleveland is cold But yeah, I love could we see a bangles bills bangles bills AFC His coldest pro game was 27 degrees. I'm just saying he's not a warm weather qb by any means. Cleveland is cold Rogers has on the turtleneck. They win lol gosh Not rogers in a turtleneck Baker really thought about throwing He's playing in a wetsuit Leave it to rogers to be the cringiest guy in the world playing in a wetsuit. God's sake rogers Please calm down. I'm begging you to calm down Oh, they're going. He's gone. He's so gone He's so gone No, he's not Little run though All right, here comes turtleneck rogers. We're in a wetsuit.  Oh bakers in the wetsuit That doesn't surprise me at all. That's such a baker maybe Not even funny. Let me wear this wetsuit for my football game. Yep. That's screaming baker God's sake That's baker Take the wetsuit off my guy really probably why I got sacked. Yeah, you're right. He can't move. He can't go anywhere He's got too many layers on He's going surfing My gosh, no, I actually Leave it or not When I was in glint for all-star Yeah, summer league and all-star. I get them confused. Definitely not the summertime um for all-star it was frickin old like I I think I forgot that cleveland is by such a large body of water. So it It's it's cold. It's like icy wet windy pain I don't know what else to say. I'm from colorado you guys. I know what cold feels like we have a this coming thursday We have a high of one degree And a low of negative 16 So I know a thing or two about the cold. I'm definitely going to know a thing or two about it this week But cleveland. Oh, it was different I paid the juicer chalk or whatever and took packers minus three like minus 230 when my bankroll is bigger I don't mind paying juice. Hey you do you and guess what one thing we don't do around here is unit shame and or Shame anyone's betting style to be honest with you And if we do we get removed from the chat So try me Um, no, I'm kidding. But we don't we don't roll like that I will actually never My producer said easy No, I won't kick you out. But we don't unit shame Why would you? Uh, what coach should the broncos hire to salvage russ? I have talked about this on my show with orlando franklin former offensive lineman for the denver broncos Sean patin Is who we have talked about a lot as being somebody that could come in and kind of put wilson in his place Keep wilson on the edge of his seat and coach wilson because what we have right now is Nathaniel hackett who tried to be buddies with wilson and pretty much kind of gave wilson the go ahead to just whatever he pleased And we saw how that worked out for us.  Yeah, okay Yeah, I think uh, I heard a lot of people saying that patin's gonna go to the chargers They think he will hey rogers. What are you doing? Throw the football All right, jones. What the frick was that? oblin Ryan allen looks like artin He's already missed seven games this season ah Big Sean patin is on jerry's radar and dallas. Ooh baren rogers is tom brady in 2022.  I hate it I will tell you as much as I have been frustrated with russell wilson this season um The game that he got hurt in and the play that he actually got hurt in to me He was playing exceptional football compared to what we've seen. He was playing a great game of football as a quarterback Um, and and I don't like that he got injured, but I do like that. He was showing some sort of grit finally He was playing with some fire Thank god because we have not seen that at all Let's start scoring quick Over the Broncos higher. Can they get rust to stop with the cringe nonsense? I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm with you It does seem like it's toned down a little bit, but I'll have to wait till next season at all over Well hang now. Sorry guys um What was that stat they just wrote I couldn't even read it Ooh seeing their breath just makes me cringe. Oh um Oh, it looks freezing. I can't even like stand in the cold let alone like run Oh, that's so gross do you guys think that Questions that's like from my fuzzy from my um, do you guys think that one should all Oh that ground is hard af. Oh, I bet it is At least it's not windy. Yeah, that's that's good. Um Do you guys think that all new arenas should have a cover? one and two Could all fields be real grass and not turf Go ahead and drop your answers in the chat Personally as a person that doesn't like to stand in the cold. I would love if every arena moving forward had a cover Real grass band roofs. Okay Andrew in the chat Fans be airing acls on grass too. It's true Yes, and yes, mario says yes to grass. Yes to roots Chris says grass lost I don't know what your name is or how to pronounce that real grass So we can all agree on the grass How do we feel about the root the chewy? That's me William Bennett says yes with the cover and play on real grass. Okay Young stinky says nothing like an a1 grass field Young stinky says roof. No, okay Andrew and young stinky say no to the roof No to the roof. No to the roof, but yet everyone's saying yes on grass Fair honestly, I think the roof thing for me is more just me being selfish and not wanting to be cold Oops, also I can dress cuter when it's not cold. Yes. I am being that person We also got another no cover need some stadiums to have character and home field advantage You're actually right about that because there is a level of advantage being like a cold weather qp Up against a warm weather qp hold out like you don't want to lose too much of like the natural game, you know Haha Young stinky you're right go We need points Did his leg not just get twisted in a creepy way that guy shouldn't have held his leg around so long That's stressed me out retractable roof or half and half Yes to graph grass, but the roof depends on the nfl city because a over lambo field or so field would be Think so Yeah Young stinky you agree that looks sketchy his knee looked like it was like screaming for help. I don't like that at all All right, are we gonna get a tutty here? Are we gonna get a little tutty here or what? We need points and we've got first touchdown scores that we're sweating out. Come on Oh See let's see. Let's see Need it The turtle neck is about to send me over the edge No flag No flag that's the hains from walmart grass roof. You want your star players to be able to ball Okay So you're saying yes to a roof Ramsay top five most overrated player in the league. Yes or no, that's a tough rogers is missed Starting goal.  I mean he looks old when he like His age is showing for sure. Oh, we needed that score right there He needed that score right there. We're sweating out AJ allen And watson watson we were right there you guys it was right there turning on my heater really quick well Now I don't even I don't even want to want to keep watching the game you guys because That was our opportunity right there Baker can't have back-to-back good game Just not possible. Um Dang it. That was our chance you guys that was our chance right there Dang dang dang Dang dang dang. Okay you guys well You have big units on this. No Um when I joined I asked everybody what they liked for first touchdown I put 10 dollars on it.  So PJ smooth guy. I was wondering where you were The cowboys beat the Eagles with jay lords out. I think they do Live goat gambling content cream. I appreciate PJ smooth guy. We missed you I think we're gonna wrap it up here because That was our closest opportunity at sweating out a first touchdown score Bet with each other since we are All on the Packers heavy on the Packers that um Yeah Young stinky don't be sad because we will be back On monday Cowboys will fail for some reason Definitely possible. I like your boots. Thank you, William Um, it's definitely possible that the cowboys choke in true cowboys fashion, of course um But Glad to catch you on keep doing it. I appreciate you. Thank you everybody for coming to hang out today. Um We will be back next monday the plan is post Been a fun football season it has plan is post christmas on the 26th We do another uh live stream to talk through The game for that night and any other betting that we want to talk about so plan on that Obviously the holiday season is unpredictable and crazy, but the plan is I will see you guys this coming monday If you have been here before and you're retuning in thank you for always showing up And if you're new here, welcome to live moods. We do this every monday right here on the fan duel twitch and youtube 8 p.m. Eastern time. We just hang out and chat Like we've done all night tonight I'll be back every monday and listen I may even continue this when the nfl season ends. We will have to see if this is something you guys really enjoy We'll keep it up. We'll keep doing it. We'll do it through the nba season We'll make sure that we have this at least once a week to sit to talk and chat and hang out.  There's like a million bugs in the air right now Um, please wash your hands get rest and hydrate. I appreciate you all for being here I'm waiting to see if baker gets sacked. He did. Um, I appreciate you all for being here. Thank you for hanging out Happy holidays, and I will see you guys next week. Bye