Live from the Fairmont Hotel in San Jose, California, it's The Cube at Big Data SV 2015. Welcome back everybody. We are live here in San Jose at Big Data SV. This is the Cube's premier Big Data event. Welcome to the program. We're joining in this segment by Jim Walker, who is Senior Director of Product Marketing at Hortonworks, and Rob Rosen, Senior Director of Product Solutions at Platfora. Guys, welcome to The Cube. Thanks for having us. Long time frequent guest. Rob, I think your first time joining us on The Cube, so great to have you guys here. So we've got you both here. So I guess, you know, I want to start the question. Talk a little bit about the relationship. I mean, we know that Hortonworks is very important to build out the partner ecosystem. It's a really integral part of your business model. Talk a little bit about, Jim, why don't we start with you, kind of, where Platfora plays and kind of set the stage for us, kind of, where the relationship is. Yeah, you know, it's funny, you know, a fundamental belief at Hortonworks has always been to enable the ecosystem. I think from, you know, day one when I walked through the front door, I sat down with Rob Beard and he said, you know, look at, you know, our strategy is really a triangle, and one of those pieces of the triangle has been really a partner strategy and an ecosystem strategy, and, you know, partnership with Platfora has been going on for, oh gosh, quite some time, really since the inception of Platfora.  So, you know, gosh, we've been working together for about, like I said, about two years and, you know, the partnership has had, you know, I think Hadoop had to make its, had to be established as a platform, you know, people had to dump a lot of data into it. I think initially people were using Platfora as a way to kind of play with things, that's completely changed. You know, we're at the stage now where people are looking at tools like Platfora and then in particular to say, hey, let's really extract some real value out of this Hadoop thing. You know, let's, you know, start with this EDW optimization, whatever we're doing, but real critical to a lot of our customers today, yeah. So, Rob, tell us a little bit about your approach at Platfora. You know, Jim kind of alluded to the first phase of Big Data was a lot about getting data into the data like, if you will. And now we're moving to, we're seeing, well, how do we get some, a lot of value out of all that data in there? And that's where I think Platfora plays. Tell us a little bit about your approach to helping customers actually get some value out of that data through the analytics and visualizations. So, when we founded Platfora four years ago, we heard very frequent comments around, hey, we feel like we're data rich, but insight poor. And when we looked at how most of the traditional business intelligence vendors were approaching the market, the conclusion was that kind of bolting on Hadoop to a traditional BI pipeline was going to make that problem way worse. So we decided that we really need to enable end users, business analysts who want to be able to get into all the data with Hadoop, find patterns very quickly, we need to enable those folks to iterate to insight very quickly by doing a lot of the work that IT would traditionally do around data prep, around analytics enablement and kind of get them out of the world where adding a new column of data takes nine months and allow end users to do that themselves in like nine minutes, right? So that's really been our focus over the last four years. We've seen some amazing use cases that were enabled by HTTP to help people kind of move from that sort of initial probing around what do we do with this stuff to some really critical business insights that they can find very quickly with Platfora and HTTP together. So dig into that a little bit more. So what are some of, as that evolution has occurred, what are some of the common use cases you're seeing among your customers? So we see about 70% of our customers doing work around customer analytics. The traditional customer 360 sort of sets of use cases where they're combining the traditional data sources around highly structured data, which they're scooping into HTTP. And then they're combining that with maybe sensor data or lots of less traditional data sources, clickstream data. And they're getting a full picture around how a given customer might be interacting with a brand on their wireless device versus on a website versus in a store, right? And once you get that complete picture, you can really get to the bottom of what people are really perceiving about your brand and where they're getting hung up when they're trying to transact. That's been a real common area. Now are you seeing that develop kind of side by side with some of the more traditional ways they've been doing things? Or are you seeing more of a rip and replace kind of strategy? Or are you seeing that this is more complimentary to what they've been asking? It's really complimentary, right? So you might take some of the same data sources that a traditional customer analytics solution like Omniture would use and enrich that with other data sets that maybe people wouldn't have the ability to do easily with a traditional analytics solution. And the same sort of paradigm holds true for some of our other customer solution sets like security and Internet of Things, right? There's a lot of very traditional analytics approaches that people are using and they're complimenting a platform play with the HTTP and platform together to sort of flesh out the overall big picture. And over time we probably anticipate seeing some of those traditional workflows migrate over to a Hadoop and a platform kind of a play. So you mentioned security, obviously that's a hot topic. Pretty much every other day, on the front page of the Wall Street Journal, there's some kind of data breach. I'm curious, from a security perspective, from both you guys. So Jim, let's start with you from Hortonworks perspective. What are you guys doing in the security space? I know you launched the data governance initiative a little while back, which is related to security. How do you approach security in a big data context? So there's really two sides of this question really, Jeff. I mean, there's security of the platform itself. And we're entrenched in that. We incubate projects. We actually purchased the company last year and then incubated that as an Apache Software Foundation project. It's called Apache Ranger. So we're in the business of really securing the platform, right? And so I'm not gonna talk too much about that. I think what it becomes interesting from an insights point of view and what the tools you can do to actually implement security for an organization is really, really interesting to me. I don't get me wrong. I love the bits. I love the Apache projects and all these things. But I think from a pure consumer point of view, what can people use Hadoop for to implement better security in the organizations? A whole lot. I was in the computer security business for, I mean, I was coding ACL frameworks in small talk in Java in the late 90s. And then I moved into master data management. So it was single view of the customer stuff. And when I found Hadoop, gosh, six years ago or so, I just, I had looked back on my career and said, wow, there's a lot better way of doing all these things. The single view, the 360 degree view, as you just said, we start to look at the amount of data that it takes to actually do forensics on say a breach. When we look at the amount of data that it takes to actually understand how holes happen or look at the perishable insights or the moments in time that our security breaches, be it fraud, at a credit card transaction, right? Being able to do that at mass scale has always been a challenge because systems in the back end, it's just too difficult to scale. You can't, A, you can't throw enough hardware at it or you couldn't throw the software at it to actually deal with this. But then as the problem kind of progressed, it just had its own problems, right? And so I think what's happening with Hadoop is people are starting to look at the way that they've done things in the past and said, let's do them better. And so when I look at things like platform about simplifying that front end and being able to investigate data or interrogate it, I guess, for the security side, that's really interesting to me. And so, like I said, I think there's two sides. We could talk long about security inside, Jeff, but I think that's kind of the security side. Is that what you guys are seeing too, yeah? Yeah, I mean, the kind of canonical problem for security analysts is that 95% of your network traffic is normal and appropriate, 5% is really dangerous. It's really hard to find that 5%, right? So what we enable with Hadoop underneath us is to extend the timeline past the sort of traditional 30-day boundary that you see with most security appliances, right? So most of those security appliances that are deployed on the enterprise network have MySQL or Oracle as a backing store. And that takes you out to about 30 days. After that, you're kind of on your own, right? So to really kind of get the big picture on where that dangerous 5% might be, you need to take data from all those different devices, ingested into Hadoop, and now you have sort of a multi-structured data set and a much bigger picture that goes back much further in time. So it's much easier to figure out what a traditional pattern is and whether or not it's, quote, normal, because that's the same pattern that's been happening over the last six months. Or it's abnormal, and all of a sudden you've got an endpoint on your network that's sending sensitive data out to China. That's never done that before, okay? That's an area that you need to pay immediate attention to, and that's really what HDP enables for us, is the ability to get a much longer period of time because you have very cost-effective storage platform. Right, and the ability, so now you don't have to sample, you don't have to just interrogate a very small set of data where you can miss those anomalies, which in security is exactly what you're looking for. Exactly, yeah. We all know that hackers have been very, very sophisticated around their ability to get in underneath the wires and stay effectively dormant for six months and very slowly pick up very sensitive data. So if you've got the big picture and you can get down to the individual record level, you can actually detect those things much more easily than if you're trying to sample the data or you're working off of just aggregate data. If you want to find a needle in a haystack, you have to have a haystack. That's right. It's really as simple as that. I mean, really, that's it. You have to have the haystack, and we simply have not been able to capture the haystack. I mean, this stuff just ends up on the data center floor for years. And so all that is gone. Just understanding IP traffic in itself is great. Taking ingesting data from every laptop in the organization, corporate data, you simply weren't able to do that before. And now we can do that, which is really over. It's awesome. So let's turn back to enterprise adoption. So one of the challenges we hear from practitioners all the time with Hadoop can be complex. You've still got to put a lot of different pieces together. We're starting to see that solidify, things like the announcement yesterday around the open data platform. Really the goal there is to solidify the core to make it more consumer-friendly enterprise. In the case of partnerships, bringing together more of a, if not a one-stop shop, one-stop solution, a much more cohesive product, essentially, that an organization can bring into their data center. From a platform's perspective, how do you look at this market? How do you look at this technology? Does it require a platform play? Or can this idea of cobbling together best of breed solutions, is that sustainable? So it really depends on the physical geography, literally where you're at. We see adoption of best of breed approaches accelerating much more quickly on the coasts, the United States, and in certain territories and EMEA in Japan as an example. Other areas, if you look towards the later adopters geographically, they can really get a lot more leverage out of a pre-integrated platform. So they're able to not have to spend as much time in the weeds trying to figure out how everything works, and that's a big issue for them because they can't find the talent typically in those areas. So there's definitely a huge potential for having kind of a common platform that's pre-integrated. And so I completely agree with you. What we're seeing is certainly on the Global 1000, the really big enterprises are taking steps with the Duke. You've got the kind of foreign data-driven startups that are kind of built in their DNA.  But we saw this in the data warehouse space, for example, around consolidation, around the appliance model, kind of making it easier to consume. So Jim, talk a little bit about that approach. Do you see that playing out in this market? And how does ODP, is that part of that? Yeah, I mean, absolutely. So ODP in itself and the way that this kind of market is now progressing, we've reached a really interesting point in time with the Duke. I mean, for years it was the question was, do I roll my own or do I use a distribution? And God forbid you rolled your own, because think about Duke distribution comprises, depending on who it is, 11, 13 different projects, maybe 15 sometimes, you know, whatever that is, that's really complicated. That's not easy to pull together. And actually, I mean, that's why there's distribution companies. If it was really easy to create a distribution, there'd be a lot more than a few of us out there kind of doing the distribution game, right? And so that's not a simple task to take on. And so if you take that a step back and say, okay, great, we've solved that, we have distribution companies. It's kind of its own standard that people can now build on top of. I think this market, you and I spoke about this a little bit earlier. We've moved from kind of the build to the scale phase for Hadoop. I mean, we see people out there saying things like, Hadoop is no longer kind of an option. It's kind of a key piece of the overall data architecture. And so as that happens, in order for this, for everybody to kind of scale and move forward, there does need to be some sort of kind of a core, if you will, that people like Platform can build on top of. So they don't have to build five different versions of their platform that's gonna interact with five different distributions or whatever that's going to be. And so really this is an effort to kind of push forward in that direction to help our ecosystem of partners kind of move forward in a much more simpler way. And so that's the way I look at it. It's not about slowing. I mean, innovation is still gonna happen.  The innovation that's happening in and around Hadoop and the various different projects, the astonishing, awesome, right? That production of code, the upstream production of code is, that's not gonna slow down. In fact, that's accelerated and I'll say, because more organizations are becoming involved within the general Hadoop community. And that's one of the roles that we help play within this whole game. It's about consumption. And how do I ease consumption of Hadoop within the ecosystem of applications that are gonna live in and on top of Hadoop? I mean, the other conversation I had earlier with you, Rob, was go walk around the show floor. I'm gonna tell you, there's a lot less focus on the distributions and a lot of focus on the platforms of the world and the applications that are sitting on top of Hadoop. That's just where we're at. That's just kind of where we're at in this marketplace. And I'm excited to see it as being in this game for quite some time. You've been in this for quite some time, Jeff. It's a real exciting, this is an exciting time for I think the overall Hadoop market. No, I agree. I think we're, like I said, I think we're moving from big data, one data, whatever you want to call it, where it was, I think a lot of the use cases were focused on some of those cost savings from my team perspective. I'm gonna save some money on my data warehouse because I'm gonna move some of that data over to Hadoop and I'm gonna maybe just store it there long-term archiving but I'm not doing much else with it. To, okay, how am I gonna actually drive revenue? How am I gonna actually maybe cost savings but in a bigger picture way? Think about some of the things that you see GE doing with predictive maintenance on industrial equipment, that kind of thing. So I think it's, I agree with you. I think it's a pretty exciting time. We're starting to make that move from kind of 1.0 to 2.0. It's a little bit an overuse phrase but I think that's kind of where we are, right? Hadoop 2.0 was really the beginning of this change, right? And so, you know, turning on Yarn, turning on Hadoop to be kind of this multi-tenant platform, you know, shared security governance and operations, multiple different applications really turned on a lot more things than just say one serial application living on Hadoop. And I think it actually makes even more important for you guys because now we have lots of different types of data. How do I do discovery across not just one set of data customer but, oh my gosh, you are feeding in, you know, 15 different sets of data here. You know, how do I make sense of that as a business person? And that's where I think, you know, these type of tools become extremely important. That was the beginning of the shift is all I kind of wanted to add but I think it's really, really imperative to understand too. Yeah, I completely agree. Now the interesting thing about this market is you're seeing the, you know, the industry heavyweights are getting involved. A little bit more in depth. So whether it's IBMs of the world or EMC slash Pivotal, et cetera. And they're moving up the stack, they're doing some of the analytic work, the database work. So my question for you, Rob, from Platforms for Special, what is it like out there as a startup here?  How do you approach that? How do you fight through that noise and gain mindshare and market share? Yeah, so it's kind of interesting. You see a lot of the taglines literally being identically copied from vendor to vendor especially in the BI market, right? Everybody claims that they do self-service analytics on Hadoop, right? So I think the real challenge is to go back and say, well look, how long does it take you to actually get to insight?  So your ability to get to insight quickly and to figure out which questions to ask quickly has been frustrating historically for a very long time. So we really kind of focus on enabling that insight and we talk about how our customers are seeing some very significant things that they didn't expect to see when they started going down the road with Platformer, right? So the great thing about Hadoop and having a schema on re kind of approach is that you can put all your data in there. It doesn't matter how it's structured. And solutions like Platformer can help you find insight and discover things you didn't even know about your business. So we have amazing great stories that I tell all the time around how people are getting to the bottom of what is preventing them from really adopting more customers around specific use cases and they're discovering things like, hey, if I'm operating a web conferencing service, it looks like it's actually poor audio quality that's driving most of my customers to tear out their hair. And I didn't even know that before because I didn't have the data around the poor audio quality to begin with. So being able to sort of get to that insight quickly and then once you discover that, you know which direction you want to go to and kind of migrate through all the data in Hadoop environment very quickly, that's a new thing. And a sort of traditional BI approach is only going to treat Hadoop as a bolt-on, which means that that ability to get to insight very quickly isn't really changing from where it was 20 years ago. Well, I think you hit on two important things, one, time to insight, it's critical, and two, kind of that lack of a better term, self-service capability where you can empower a business user to go ahead and do this without having to go through the nine, 12 month cycle with their IT department and building out the data warehouse and modeling the data, that kind of thing. That is what's, I think, frustrating a lot of users and creating a lot of interest in what's happening in the Hadoop ecosystem, what platform is doing and others. So we got to wrap up, I guess one last question would be, what's next on the agenda for the Hortonworks and platform relationship? Looking forward over the next year, how do you see this kind of involvement? So I think we both see a lot of tremendous potential around Spark as enabling technology and we're using it in different ways, right? I think I'll let Jim speak to what Spark does in terms of enabling ingest and other sorts of technologies around Hadoop. What we're doing with Spark is we're leveraging it to enable much more complex transformation work and we're enabling a whole exposed interface called platform extensions, which allows end users to create very customized transformations for very complex data sets and also do things like machine learning and graph applications, which are traditionally been the province of predictive analytic sources solutions. So Spark is a great enabling technology for us and we're actually building that technology into our product. We've been doing it for the last couple of releases and we should see full formation around the part of this year. And you know, from a relationship point of view, thank you for going right at technology because yeah, there's a go to market and we're gonna figure out how we go out and sell and talk to customers. We're great at that, right? We both understand data, we understand schema, we understand the time to insight. That's why I think people are choosing companies like platform and like ourselves because we're nimble, we get it. We get this new world. That's all great. Our partnerships are led by engineering relationships. That's what we do at Hortonworks. We're gonna work with our partners to make sure that Spark is a key piece of what's gonna happen in platform yet still Spark is gonna work on yarn so that I can deliver on the promise of a data lake where I have all my data and access it multiple different ways. No matter what the engine needs to be because, again, people are gonna use Hive at the same time on that data as well. So, you know, our role is to make sure that all these things do work together and then have these deep partnerships, be it platform or any one of our other partners that you talk to, any one of them. It's an engineering relationship as well. And so I think it's a unique approach to partnerships. You know, where our breadth is wide as well, you know, we take pride in making sure that the tech is going to work together. It's gonna be simple and it's gonna really fuel the use cases that their customers are gonna be because ultimately we're a platform. Ultimately we're a platform and for us to foster adoption of where we wanna be, Jeff, that's what's critical for us. So I think it's a, you know, rinse and repeat for every one of our partners and this is a great one because they're right there in the middle of the space with us. Well, some interesting things happening. So guys, Jim from Hortonworks, Rob Rosen for Platformer, guys. Thanks for joining us on theCUBE. Appreciate it. Thanks for watching and we will be right back after this short break. Cool.


Okay, so let's do the second of the two reactions. So this one, we have about two mils of ethanol in this test tube here, and we're going to put a couple of drops of phenylphthalein in there. Now we've got a little tiny piece of sodium here. We're going to put that into the test tube. So is that reacting faster or slower than it reacted with water? Slower. Slower, right? So what does that tell us about the acidity between, yeah, this is less acidic, okay? So what do you think would be less acidic, methanol or tert-butanol? Try again. Tert-butanol. Tert-butanol, okay? Why is that? Why is this one more acidic? Because this is ethanol, right? What does it have that's different than water? It's got an alkyl group on it, right? Okay, so the more alkyl group you have, the more are the less acidic you are, yeah. The more alkyl group, okay? So you can see how slowly the sodium is reacting relative to how fast it reacted when we had the water. Is it to be a darker alkyl group? Yeah, definitely. So what is the gas that's being formed here, guys? Hydrogen gas. And what is the salt that we're forming in there? Remember last time it was what? Sodium hydroxide, right? What do you think this is? There's ethanol in there. Sodium ethoxide, yeah. And here, Jenna, feel it? Yeah, it's actually really warm. It is, right? So there's an exothermic reaction, right? Okay, so I don't know, it's essentially finally done reacting. So are there any questions about what we're talking about? It's a darker pink, yeah. Yeah, but it's only because it's more concentrated, you know? Okay, so we can't see through it as well, okay? Are there any other questions on this thing?


Excellencies, commissioners, I'm extremely happy to be here and of course my first words of thanks to our gracious host and chairman, Mr. Karl Uslim, for this opportunity. I would like to thank him also for giving us a gift yesterday of taking us to the Eldaya village. I don't think there could have been a better welcoming event than visiting this village and if I was given the floor yesterday to this event probably I would have said how wonderful it was to have this Eldaya village in the center of the city in front of an ancient cathedral and just crossing the street of course the cathedral is a world heritage site being from UNESCO I want to emphasize this and to say that it was Mexico it was just ancient and modern it was preserving its heritage but it was also a leap in the future and I would like to congratulate both Carlos and the minister for this good cooperation of public private partnerships and also it was an opportunity to speak about new technologies about the way forward about education and I know how ambitious reform in education the Mexican government and the new president senior Peña Nieto has started and I want once again to say that we are here to accompany you Mr. Minister and the president in Mexico in this very ambitious educational reform where I believe new technologies will play a vital role. So ladies and gentlemen the Broadbank Commission brings a powerful array of people and experience we have here around this table both from governments and private sector and this is I would say unique global alliance to promote broadband for sustainable development. I would like once again to thank our two co-chairs president Paul Kagame and Carlos Lim for their leadership I entirely concur with my dear colleague Hamadun in emphasizing their leadership. We come together guided by a shared conviction the conviction that we must harness all accelerators to help states and societies reach the millennium development goals and the objectives of education for all by the year 2015. The belief also that new technologies especially broadband offer vast potential for more inclusive and sustainable approaches to development. Our position here is quite clear the global rollout of broadband can help craft the knowledge societies we need for the 21st century by enhancing learning opportunities by facilitating this change of information by increasing access to content that is linguistically and culturally diverse. The report of the Broadbank Commission's working group on education in title technology broadband and education advancing the education for all agenda shows the power of new technologies for education. Let me thank once again all the contributors to the report and let me also emphasize that its conclusions were echoed at the first YCIS plus 10 review event held at UNESCO last month together with the International Telecommunication Union the United Nations Development Program and the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development. The final statement agreed that the review event was clear the key to empowering people for sustainable development and peace is education education that reaches out to all members of society education that provides genuine lifelong learning opportunities for all. Broadband plays a huge role here it is a transformational technologies but as we never tired in saying this does not happen by itself it requires leadership planning and action. We cannot just invest in technology we must invest in the ecosystem. Supporting infrastructure must be accompanied by support to applications and services as Carl was just very I would say eloquently also stated. It must move forward with investment in relevant content in local languages drawing also on indigenous and traditional knowledge. Access alone we know all that is not enough it must be combined by skills with digital literacy. The YCIS plus 10 review event recognized the work that remains ahead to overcome the digital divide which risks becoming a development divide to ensure all societies all women and men enjoy similar access to the benefits of new technologies. The final statement reaffirmed the principles that guide us. Respect for freedom of expression as defined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights both offline and online. Respect for cultural diversity as the foundation for comprehensive knowledge societies and respect for media pluralism as well as equal access to education science and technology and cultural expressions. In all this I wish to underline the need to integrate gender equality into our work to promote the global rollout of broadband. We need to empower girls and women with and through new technologies. The world is changing before our eyes under the influence of new technologies. Our task is to harness this power for the benefit of all to make sure no one is left behind. They're all societies prosper that we reach the social inclusion and social cohesion we all want. More and more governments are developing national broadband and ICT strategies. We must help them to overcome the challenges that remain in excess affordability and quality. And here I would like once again to thank the president of random Mr Polka Kagame our co-president for his leadership. I think Africa needs such leadership in this moment. And we at UNESCO as long as Africa is our global priority already and stand ready also to work with African leaders to reach out the goals ambitious goals that very justifiably they have set for themselves. We need to work in order to enhance teacher training for the use of new technologies to promote open educational resources and open access and to make the most of opportunities offered by mobile learning. So dear friends the work of the Broadband Commission for digital development is essential as we work towards the 2015 deadline of international development goals. It is vital also as we shape the contours of a new global sustainability agenda to follow 2015. I would like to thank you all for your commitment and for your contribution.


Randy Bear here with Closet Arms and working with Downcast SA tonight here on election night we're here at the pre-K4SA party we're here with Councilman Diego Bernal district one Diego so Councilman Bernal, we're calling me Diego, that's great I love these so you've been out kind of campaigning for this initiative, what have you been seeing out there in the public place and stuff? You know I think that it's it's very mixed I've seen a lot of really good support and local support I've also seen people for a real reason, you really don't know where they're at Some people who are grateful, they say look I'm not supporting them Win or lose I think it's going to be very close, I'm hoping for a victory but if you leave it up to the voters when they get there to say I think it's going to be pretty tight Where are some of the places that you've been able to talk to as far as to calling places? Mostly places in my district you know whether it's a library or a school So we're going around saying hi and of course I also think it's time to thank you for voting at home Turnouts always an issue, regardless of your party affiliation, what program, what issues you're supporting The fact that people turn out to vote at home, regardless of what you're supporting and tell them what you're supporting, they also make sure they think it's important Yeah as far as the turnout's concerned, we've been seeing a lot of heavy turnout We've worked heavy turnout on the north side, that would be on the south side Do you think that will have a factor in play on this? Well it could, we've also learned that turnout is heavier on the last day of early voting and on election day or some of the sort of center part of the city and the furthest out I think we're seeing that, whether it's enough to push or not to push You don't know, and also, let's also agree that not everyone on the north side thinks it goes the same way Similarly for close, the center city is low, it's not a problem So you can gauge some of the numbers but not everything At the end of the day, Italy is the challenge Do you think it's going to be a short amount or a long amount? Depending on what race you're talking about Okay, for pre-k, so it's a much smaller geographic area, so we'll know pretty early on For the presidency, I think it's going to be a long amount We'll know you're here for a while, we'll know you're here for a while Appreciate your time, cheers Thank you


Naomi, which is probably most of you. My name is Weasel. I'm a member of the Nomad Mobile Research Center It's an international group of hackers. It's been around for Oh seven eight years Something like that. Yeah, and we've just you know had thousands of projects that we all worked on and probably Maybe one percent of them have actually been finished and made it to fruition Hopefully we've got a few here that we can Picture well hopefully we got a few here that might might impress a few people if anything maybe inspire them to take them and Do something useful with them instead of them just sitting on our file server Okay, I don't know I'm not supposed to read these things. No, okay These are a few quotes feel free to read Let me go ahead and introduce a few of the members. Most of you know Simple Nomad he started the group. He's I think he's known for his goat porn. So He's there. Yeah, and Pandora So if anybody has any support questions with Pandora, that's the gnome at NMRC.org Anyway next to him is Jay random. He's another long-term member and He probably his claim for fame is I won't I won't embarrass you Is he was the maintainer of the hack-fack for many years and if we actually have time at the end of our presentation he'll go over Kind of what's happened with that and why it's not as up-to-date as it probably should be or if it even should be up to date And then over there is mad hat if there are any single ladies in the audience. He will buy you a car. So You know speak to him afterwards He's the I'll let you introduce your personal life and I'll this mad hat and He's recently joined the group and he's coming up some really exciting projects And that's who we are Okay, we'll go on to the where section and I'll see what tools we've been going over here and this is yours First off a tool that I had worked on previously called encrypt And I talked about it previously at other conferences. I'm not going to go into a whole lot of detail on it. It's a symmetrical crypto tool The one thing and it also had some like, you know file wiping features that came with it and it was kind of nice did AES And serpent and two fish Included in that Todd McDermott who's contributed code He's contributed code to the project. I don't know if Todd is here. It's Todd McDermott in the audience anywhere That's gonna have him stand up. Anyway, he's contributed a lot of code to the project And it's that on source forage if you're looking for it But anyway, I'm hoping to get up Todd wrote a drop-in replacement for RM called NRM Which does basically secure wiping of a file where it does multi passes and It forks off into the background and and kind of runs and does all the passes so you get your prompt back And that's the main thing that we've added into that the other thing is believe it or not we put in We had a lot of people asking for integration for the encrypt tool into scripts Where they actually and this was requested sake We want to be able to pass the password on the command line or from a text file, which is horrid However, they're wanting to do it for encrypting log files before transmitting them from one machine to the other I'm not exactly sure I don't do that use that feature, but I had enough people do it I put it in there and it's in the man pages. This is highly dangerous But nonetheless, it's in there in case you want to assume that the box that was broken into make sure that those log files that you know, they get across there in a secure fashion anyway Next mad hat. Why don't you go and talk about that? All right I'll take that as a yes. All right, so these are actually three different tools I had a project where I had to scan a large number of ideas in a daily basis and figure out what exactly was changing What was going on? Love in math and all the work that a few orders done on that Unfortunately, it wasn't quite fast enough for what I needed So I wrote the in-map wrapper and what that does is it runs a bunch of in-map processes in parallel Stores all of it to flat files right now using the graphical output the other two tools work off of those databases in map report basically allows you to go in and Specify what you want to see so show me all the hosts that are windows show me all the hosts that are that force me to open In-map diff allows you to specify two specific dates and give you the diff on all the hosts or any particular hosts The whole idea is being able to monitor large networks for changes by default It only shows you new things are added, but you can also show whenever things go away You know a whole new host that comes up It just makes it a whole lot easier than you know Trying to look at something that you only see a snapshot once every week or something of that Oh, yeah, so I was for this particular project. I was scanning around a hundred and fifty thousand ITs a day and I had it down to around ten hours to scan all hundred fifty thousand ITs So I could have done it twice a day as necessary From a single box three BSD box Sitting in a DMZ scanning host worldwide. This was not like a single location This was boxes all around the world I had to deal with network latencies, you know and well the speed of light So it came in extremely handy All right, so for those of you who are a black hats we went over this to black and the idea is a single packet authentication. This was really a Project just to see if it could be done. I run the local DC group in Dallas with the DC 214 We started discussing Year and a half or so ago, you know after Fort knocking came out Is there a better way of doing this, you know, do we really need to send multiple packets? Can we do it with a single packet and make it not replayable and make it, you know, secure and Actually do more than just open a port, you know, can we run commands? Can we do things like save reverse shell? Do we have to have any ports actually listening, you know, so this is what we came up with? It's a simple protocol allows a remote user communication system. There's nothing listening. It sniffs all the packets that are coming in we use PGP or GPG to encrypt the data and Whenever you do that if you just use raw encryption 8 bytes in there are four bytes that are the GPG ID of The key that can decrypt it. So basically we look for that. We see that we pass it on to the processing engine Of course, it's free Why not? well And of course one of the issues we wanted to deal with was working across that because we always hated, you know Having somebody call us up. Hey, I need to be able to check my mail and such and such host Okay, what IP are you on? I'm on 192 16 no no no no no what IP you're gonna be coming from well It says 192. Oh Jesus, so they can send, you know with the client They can send a single packet and it looks at the source address. It's okay So we'll open it up for that IP and then of course it monitors the traffic and after a certain timeout It'll automatically close the port Working with the idea of doing a reverse shell. So you send a single packet and it connects back to you And then we can also have it to where in our sample code where you can run arbitrary commands and The commands are specified in the config file So it's not like anybody who has access to it can run any command You have a comma-separated list of the commands that are allowed to be run by that particular user This is a visual representation of basically how it works so over on the left-hand side you have the client with you know It encrypts all the data which includes, you know an ID session keys time stamp and then the command and control data for the application was using the spot protocol It's encrypted and signs, you know encrypted for security and signs for authenticity and then it can be you know It's a data packet. So I mean it can be TCP, UDP, ICMP anything like that We've implemented TCP and UDP in our sample code Then of course, you know it encrypts it with the server's key server gets it Verifies that it's you know encrypted data passes it on Kind of an idea of how it's laid out I'm a pearl hacker, so the parts that I worked on are a pearl The client right now, you know can be on whatever host sends the data spaD is Basically a simple sniffer Once it verifies, you know what it's looking for sends it on to the spa engine Which then calls DPC as necessary to decrypt checks the user config to verify, you know, whatever they're asking to do can be done and It also keeps track of firewall state So for some reason the demon you have to restart the demon and it's gonna know what ports were already open and still keep track I'm gonna close them as necessary And a whole new one And we will have time for questions All right, so At the job where I was mentioning where I wrote the in-map tool in that tool my primary responsibility was scanning and monitoring of large groups of hosts Web servers and unit boxes At the time whenever I first started on this particular project There wasn't a lot out there to be able to scan all those same IPs on a daily basis, you know for Basic misconfigurations vulnerabilities things such as that so I wrote I started off writing a very simple HTTP scanner And it kept growing and growing and growing Works off command line or it has a web-based doing you know same script just depends on how you call it The config for all in XML, so it's really easy to Expand them lots of command line options to specify exactly what you want to scan for how you want to scan it Runs a whole bunch of processes in parallel according to you know, whatever your system can handle so it's fairly quick I had it in I started adding in some other features Like FTP to look for anonymous access look for writable directories things such as that The sequel stuff was added because you know, I happen to be working on parts of it whenever Came around so it was easy to add in other features There was also some SMTP stuff, but It is it is extremely fast. That was the whole idea You know once again, I was scanning large number of hosts Needed to get it done, you know in a short amount of time The way the output works there are multiple outputs, you know, there's a verbose output They would actually tell you here's the vulnerability and here's the fix and you know standard stuff for a scanner But it also another thing was it was written so that I could export the data imported into a database very easily Also worked a whole lot of time on false positives for anybody who's done any you know constant monitoring of hosts The big thing is oh look, there's a Apache vulnerability running on an IIS box Yeah, that makes sense So I spent a whole lot of time making sure that there were as few false positives as possible looking for a whole bunch of different things You know looking for custom 404s, you know things that it's starting to become a little bit more common in in scanners but at the time And of course once again, it's free Hey, I'm gonna stand up here for a while All right, so here's another one once again in pearl this one The idea is ICMP packets are sent out with a forged source address the whole idea was On the corporate network We wanted to check to see if people had DSL lines or modems You know something or even misconfigured network devices so that things were being sent out the wrong direction I Wrote a small pearl module that does allows for looping so all of these actually use the same for a module So you can actually specify ranges of hosts and you know almost any format makes it really easy to run so what this does is it forges an ICMP echo request the data contains the IP that it was supposed to be sent to as well as a Sign key which is using MD5 and a shared secret the server sniffs Those on that force the dress whenever it comes in it looks to see if the source where it was being where the Appliance coming from is the same as within the data portion is the nice thing about ICMP is whatever you send it in the data Portion it sends back in the data portion So it made it very easy to be able to do this so I was able to find DSL you know hooked up to a corporate network, you know somebody had gotten the DSL line run to their desk How I don't know I wasn't involved in that part, but basically their default route went out to you know, SBC So I'm sitting here spewing packets to the 192 space and all of a sudden I'm seeing data coming back from SBC and That's not a good thing and of course my favorite was the networking devices that had Routes added for no apparent reason Of course networking guys denied that it was on purpose or anything like that. They got changed rather quickly after you find it Once again fast simple very specific problem to solve Okay, here's my another contribution of mine.  I really am What this does is it's mainly meant as an academic tool, okay?  It's it really is meant as an academic tool and I'll tell you why I mean There's a lot of people that don't understand how one-time pads work what this is is an implementation of a one-time pad Okay, and the reason I say it's nearly perfect crypto is because it is perfect except as is but it is as only reliable as Isaac the pseudorandom number generator that I've got in there and it is as Only as perfect as your key management, which is actually kind of the bad thing. So if I'm going to send let's say goat porn to to much Because it wouldn't be no wouldn't be the first time then what I would do as I say hmm Well, this file is you know 30 meg in size So then I need to generate a 30 meg key To make it happen and then the trick is is me getting that key to him and then us Never ever using that key ever again for anything destroying the key after is after it's done I mean literally if I put it on a CD and hand it to him and then we're done with it We need to destroy the key perhaps with that NRM file that I had previously or we you know throw the CDs into a vat of Acid or however you manage your paranoia with your CDs at home. However, that happens Anyway, because you're doing something with just like a one-time pad it makes the crypto part Really, it's not very complicated.  So it is very fast very simple Just it's really nice to do like I said if you can manage the key exchange You're getting damn close to having pretty good crypto Anyway, so let's just to show you why this thing is so fast and secure here's a the the main and I have it in quotes there crypto loop because it's Hardly a little bit if you look look right down here toward the bottom Oh my god, I know why he showed up You'll know in a minute Where it says wicked crypto because we are X soaring okay, and you can see that massively intense one line of Code there that just kicks so much ass. All right So anyway, we have this tool there to kind of play with this and I'll tell you the truth The main reason actually truthfully the main reason I wrote this tool is because there's a friend of mine Who we would like to really really have some deep serious conversations with and we were talking about well How in the world could we actually do this in a secure fashion?  It's at time for Q&A now This is the thing we're going to do for the Q&A because this is kind of a dry kind of tool talk All right, so what we're going to do something different from the Q&A is during the Q&A portion of this We're going to go ahead and spank audience members who want to be spanked now The the thing that we're going to do is the first thing is if you're coming up here We're going to I mean obviously there's no female members, although I think we've got we may be able to recruit some Females that we happen to know to come up here to help spank Lily come on up So you're going to have a choice of you know, not only being spanked by a guy But you can be spanked by a chick Okay. Now the thing is if you want to be spanked we do have a release form. You do have to sign If anyone has been reading on full disclosure We did post a link to the release form So if you filled out one previously that you printed off and filled out feel free to go ahead and bring it up Let me get out the stuff that you're going to be spanked with hold on just a second all right, the first thing that we're going to spank people with is a Shmucon This is from the shmugroop when I was at shmucon all the speakers got these because they handed out shmuballs to throw it Speakers that weren't behaving well or being stupid or causing shit So they gave this speaker something to fight back with so we have a Shmugroop paddle that you can be spanked with you can also be spanked via a nice firm hand Okay, and the final thing to be spanked with Is a copy of the third edition of a hacking exposed? So and just to show how it's going to work I Want to bring mud up here in spain camp. Let's get much up here You guys should have seen the rehearsals. I would have to look at the code specifically I stole some code now I stole some code from Todd McDermott because we worked on entropy stuff part of it is We're using a processor timing speeds and we're throwing in some I forget the exact call It's one where you're saying Slow down. I'm relinquishing the processor and so I get a random time and so that gives me Between that and some other stuff thrown in, you know like you know the times and stuff. Okay, there you go Okay, thank you Anyone else anyone else want to Comments instead of questions. Yeah, go ahead. You got a comment The two comments go ahead. All right. Are you you want to get spanked while you're getting your comments? Do you want do you want to spank you sign the release for him? He signed it? Oh Okay, so my first comment is your single packet authentication thing Right about using it, you know behind a net so that you could you know open up a service and so forth Aren't you opening? I mean you're opening up that service for everything behind that net and everyone behind that net Isn't that kind of insecure? Yes Yes, of course Okay, yeah, just a comment on that Yeah No, what what this what really what this is is like it's not considered true authentication on there All you're doing is you're opening up the port Obviously, you'd be opening up the port and then some other process So the tools misnamed Okay No, we are authenticating you know you actually you are authenticating you're saying you I am who I say I am if you trust PGP Okay, and then if you trust PGP and it says okay. I've signed that key then yes I know who you are so I will at least open up the port now You got to go ahead and provide credentials to getting access to the box So it's considered a consider it a layer. Okay, so so the second comment is your tool where you use spoofed ICMP in order to try to map network topology The fact that your client has not implemented anti spoofing measures on his network all the way down to layer 2 The fact that the tool even allowed is allowed to work on the network means that you need to recommend your client that he Implemented the anti spoofing technology so that your tool won't work because it's best practice not to allow spoofed traffic to To traverse your network or egress from it. You're assuming this is for business I think it's for any kind of IP Don't forget you come up here spanking Which which did you want? All right next question next question. We got to keep things moving Come on. There's got to be more questions than this and there's got to be more people to just want all right Who just wants to be spanked? Come on up. Come on up. We're not shy. Who wants to I see people. They're like like looking and thinking about it Come on. Let's get some I'm serious. I'm looking at people. Oh my god. We got people coming out Yeah, yeah, come on.  Oh like to who you want to be? Yeah, like I would like to be spanked by check all that apply Yeah, oh, we need a beer up here to someone can bring a hell I'm back a beer Yes, he hasn't anything to drink in three minutes, please Also, if you the names that you want to be called during the spanking Such as you can check all that apply like biatch Script kitty scene whore Russ Cooper A number of different ones Oh, there we got a beer. You got a beer for you Any any other any other questions while we're while we're at it while we're getting some people ready to be spanks This guy's already Sign who do you want to spank you?  An else guy Let's I want to bring a J ran over here. He talked about why the hackback hadn't been updated in in ages Basically, it's all your fault So I think we're here maybe two years ago. Was that the left panel? Yeah, so two years ago. I spent Maybe a good few months taking the hackback as no might had left it Updating the HTML. So it was all valid updating all the URLs. So they weren't broken Updating a good amount of the content so that it was relevant to today, you know stuff that had been documented back then But wasn't known at the time And so we basically came to people and said we've done everything all we need is your input We need more questions more frequently asked questions that we can get documented in the fact So we can improve the general knowledge in the community and we just got spam That's all we got heinous enlargements credit card bills So yeah, the fact is pretty much dead. We're gonna keep it online But clearly no one's really interested in adding to it. And so We'll just keep it as a kind of historical record. I guess I Think we're right back toward the end of the presentation. I wanted to go ahead and actually finish up with a couple of Specific announcements are the girl in the picture? Yes, she is wearing an NMRC t-shirt and Yes, I have the world's most understanding wife because I actually paid for the model and paid for the photo session They get these pictures in particular just for Defcon and we will make sure that some of the artwork is available on the NMRC website so that you can use it for backgrounds on your computers and Got a few shout outs in there CAU they're represented over here some there's some green guy that if you see the green guy then you know that CAU they've been very supportive For us obviously all the DC 214 people because a lot of the talks and stuff that we give we try them out on our local DC groups thing Also mad hats gonna be participating in the DC The DC groups panel that's on later this evening John Callas I saw the black cat His he had some ideas for spa that actually were pretty good that we had put in there and shout out to him Of course the rest of the NMRC people that aren't here Mike Rache who is somewhere out here in the audience. There he is right there FW knob, which actually was Here last year actually is very similar and we've been talking very similar to spa so we were talking with him And everything and I've got I just want you guys to know that we're trying we're going to be actually our first planning session for Defcon 14 is going to take place later tonight And we promise that we're going to have something We're going to have something really big and fantastic for you guys We really appreciate all the support that you guys have given us over this Wondrous time that we've been having so you know really do appreciate all the support from everyone We'll try to do our best to give back as much as we can Do everyone here. So if we have nothing else Just want to say thanks. Oh, well, we have something over here. Yes The rumors is what now? There are yes, of course, there are rumors that it's not going to be here at Alexis Park next year I don't know because there was those same rumors last year as well I know there's rumors flowing around at Schmucon for example that it might not be here this year But in fact it was So I don't know.  We'll take Get on that right away. Okay No, and again all the code and stuff that we're talking about we will have links up to that stuff I'll make sure that stuff gets put up tonight and So you can pull it down play with it break it A number of us have been writing code. We don't profess to be coders Okay, so if you come up with fix in fact like for example spa had a Remotely exploitable heap overflow in it until I found that and corrected it Okay, but so anything you guys can do to help add to the add to it And and if you come up with some better idea than what we've got then Then eat that's even better because and that means you know We've inspired someone to come up with something that's actually been coded by real colors instead of just hacker types Okay Oh Yeah, and if you find any as zero days in any of the code that we released We recommend that you go ahead and turn it into iDefense because they need the help. Okay. They really do All right, so that's it. We will see you guys next year and it cons in between so thanks a lot


As well, just quickly, I wanted to get your thoughts if that's right on how you think we're going to transition from Everton Football Club to more of a global, I don't want to say franchise, but, you know, when I get on the tube and away from work, there's people from all around the world with spurs bags. I don't think, as a kid, no one supported spurs at all. Like, I, not honestly, I had the choice to support in spurs or Everton as a kid, and I picked Everton, so, you know, I do give all to myself, so I'd reckon we could do that.  We've worked, and in the Tuesday topic, we've done that as well, again, it'll be out after this. You've got to be bold, haven't you? You've got to start, say, you know, we're going to do, are we doing this? We've got the stadium approved. That's going to happen. It's going to get built. So are we just going to be a decent club with a boss stadium, or are we going to be a club who's going to go, you know what, let's go and do this properly. You know, Liverpool have just got all this, not Liverpool, but the company run Liverpool, I've just got this huge investment, half a billion, and the reckon that's going to be used to invest in other clubs, create this network of clubs. But like the city? Yeah, to build their brand with people like James and people like that from different areas of sport. And that's big. So we have to, how do we catch up with players, trophies, the stadium will help, it'll be a real key thing. We've got to start saying, what are we going to do? Are we going to just be this club who now and again, who's going to throw us as a bone by getting sponsored by this company and getting sponsored by that company? Or is he just going to come in and go, you know what, it's my money. I've got a lot of money and I want to put it into a football club, because that's the only real way, because at the moment, what are we doing? What are we doing? We're just going, oh, yeah, we've got a great manager. Where's the players? They're the ones who make the difference.  I'm saying go and get the next crop, do it properly. At the moment, we're just like in between, aren't we? The spares thing is interesting, because they obviously haven't won any trophies, so they've done it by building a good side and getting into the Champions League regularly, haven't they? Also, as well, Josie, because they're in London, they're a big deal anyway. But you're absolutely right, Everton and Trotnam, even going back Potatino, till when he started, Everton and Trotnam were still very much on a par, you know? We'd be similar. In fact, Everton, when Moise come up until about 2011, finished above Spare, and now Redd, not bad, a good couple of seasons, but in general, we were always above Spare, or there, or there about. And they just took it on. The Granders helped them, it seemed, to have made them even bigger, because they've got that stadium. The NFL linked up. The NFL linked up as well, but because they were in the Champions League, that's how they were able to... And Kane. And Harry Kane scoring goals. So Everton have got a look at it and go, we've got this great stadium coming in three years on the banks of the Royal Blue Mesa. It'll be everywhere. That'll give us elevation. But the thing that Everton have to do is get into Euro. Now, this is frustrating now for this year, because eight weeks ago, we'd got ourselves in an incredible position to get into Euro. It was all on us to blow it, and low and behold, Everton have put themselves now in a position where they're going to have to go soon to get European football. But if Everton can get European football, and have a strong season next season, buying the players that Peds, talking about young players, growing as a team, people will start taking us more seriously and going, actually, these are up and coming. They're going to this stadium. They've got Carlo Ancelotti, look at the players they've got, look at the results they're having, and people do take you more seriously then. I actually think Everton would be perceived better than Leicester City are doing, if Everton done what Leicester are doing, if that makes sense.  Where I think they look at Leicester and go, oh, they're a good side, and you give them a little pat on their head because it's Leicester. I think with Everton, people would talk about Everton as being heavyweights again. But Gary Neville said it last night, apparently, he said, every time Everton get the opportunity to do something, this is what they do, because it's just that they never do anything. So until we can change that perception, we're not going to become global like space, that are you see it? Yeah, definitely about 100%, but it's just, I just can't believe the transition to what they were to what they are now. I remember I come out of my nan's house, and when I saw the stadium, it literally was breathtaking. It's like a Coliseum, absolutely huge, and getting all people from around the world. I love Planet Goodison Park, and I love our identity, but I don't want to lose that. I feel like my mate that's a United fan the other day went, I'd be ashamed whenever Everton goes because it's one of the last proper clubs. And I thought, do you know what, here we are, but then we've got to move on. We can't be little old Everton, we've got all this money, we need to start going places, sorry. Sorry mate, there's a lot of reasons behind that though as well though, because you just mentioned what Tottenham have done. You've got to be prepared to leave your traditional fans behind in a way. You've got to be prepared, I was listening to John Blaine on the Business Matters podcast the other day, and obviously they all come from it, we're in a real business sense, I mean the names of the podcast of course. But what they're doing is like season it, we're always there proud of our season tickets aren't we? We sell out this many season tickets and this, we've got this many local people and all this. With their ideas, and we had John on last week and he said it to us on the couch, he was like, we shouldn't have that many season ticket holders, we should have maybe 20,000, and trust that people will come to the ground off their own backs and will pay money to come. And if you have to leave some people behind when you do that, that's just the way we're living. Now as Evertonians, I don't think we are cynical enough to do that. I think we feel like it's great having this fan base, traditional fan base. Whereas people like Spares are like, we're in London, we'll attract day trippers, Liverpool do the same here, we haven't got anything that happens on a non-max day at the ground either to attract these people in, so people can go and be in Liverpool and think right, okay, they're not playing but let's go to the stadium and see if they've got a museum or go for a coffee there or whatever. So that's what the stadium a lot fair. And maybe that's the chance to change how things have been done at the club. We were talking about last week on the Tuesday topic and I was saying when I said to Baz, we need to buy the biggest shop in Liverpool that's available now. And Baz sort of looked at me and said, we can't do that. And then we all have to start thinking that maybe we can do that. And I get where you were coming from. It's almost like a pointless thing. But it has to start somewhere, doesn't it? So it's got to be a starting place. Yeah, and that stadium might be the starting point. But it's not going to come quick enough for us. Well, you've got to lay the ground now, haven't you? Just quickly. Do you reckon we could get a self-partnership with an NBA or NFL like what Spares have done? Do you reckon that could be possible? Yeah, why not? Listen, we keep on almost telling ourselves all the time that we can't do these things. And yet Manchester City is the big one that I've proved it. But you're right. People like Spares have just gone out and said we're going to do these things. We're going to make ourselves the NFL club of London. Take the pressure off Wembley and we're going to be the club. And not only are we going to be the club, we're going to build a stadium that has an NFL pitch underneath the pitch and changing rooms that are just for the NFL teams except when there's COVID. And we're going to make this a multi-use stadium. Now, I'm not saying we do that, but that's ambition. That's the ambition of doing that. And that's what we're saying. We're saying if Everton are really serious, why do we keep on getting these little sponsorship deals with who's one of us companies? Just come in, own the club with your mate and start pouring money in and start changing the face of the Everton Football Club. Go after those big brands. Go after them and say we want to be involved with you. Not you want to be involved with us. We're a Premier League club. It's global. It's watched all over the world. Be part of it. It's also how you are seen by people outside. So Spares now have got Nike as the kit deal and now Liverpool have. That's a way of saying we're a big brand and big brands want to work with us. I like all the humble stuff and I'm not disrespecting them. But it doesn't scream to the outside world. Big club. I like the gear, the gear sound. But that's another thing of us. We sit here going, gear is great. Our best gear. Liverpool fans in here moan about the Nike stuff. It's too expensive. They start the other. But at the same time, the brand for Liverpool is huge. We had Nike and we had it on. We had Sunday League Nike. The same kind of turns like Wolves and Lester have got. We had Sunday League Nike. Now without some saying, as a fan, they don't actually like how much their kit cost. But as a club they're like, who's that? We've got the Brown James walking man on Liverpool kits. That's, we're on the front cover of FIFA. That's the difference, isn't it? That's what we're talking about. It's about puffing your chest out. You've got Harry Kane. You've got Harry Kane doing all kinds of stuff for the NFL. Because he loves the NFL. And he'll sit there in his, you know, his Patriots top on doing stuff for the NFL. That's huge. The thing, I guess, though, from Liverpool and space to the extent. Champions League. Everything's come from them doing well though. You know, Liverpool. I think back to when we, just even when we started in here and they had Brendan Rodgers as the manager and they was in fighting these with FST. We're getting FST out and all that. There was all the... What's ambition though, isn't it? Now what I'm saying, there was unrest from Liverpool fans walking out after 77 minutes and all that. There was unrest. And then all of a sudden they got clocked. Yeah. They got the kids, the fella from here came in and started, and they started being then successful because they got stuff right and it snowballs then. And then what they did was from being successful they built from that position of strength. And when history will tell you when Everton have had a position of strength in the past they haven't built on it. And that's where we are now. That was when we won the league twice. While we were still. Thought of as one of the top three or four clubs in the country. We wouldn't pay another £200 grand for Alan Shearer when he was wanted to come here and he went to Blackburn instead. Then we won the FA Cup and okay, we got Kincelskis but there was still an opportunity the following season to really build on it and we didn't. Well look, let me ask you a question. Do you think other clubs like Spears would build... Did they build the stadium and say we must have Champions League to go into that grand? Well like Arsenal. I mean because they had it in a bag didn't they with Enga so they knew that they would be getting it and then look what's happening to them. We need to start doing that as a club is having that ambition to not sit here and go oh yeah, when we go into that new stadium we can't wait, it's great. Do we have to go, no no no because when we go into this new stadium the tickets are going to cost more and also it's like anything else we have to be pressured to pay the bills every year. It's not like this stadium that we own and it's our stadium. So we're going to have to go in this stadium and have loftier ambitions just to pay the bills. So I'm thinking, so should we be going in that? Should the club, the fans, should the club be going into that stadium going we've got to have Champions League when we go into this stadium to make use of this stadium? Well yeah, 100% but the only way that they can say Champions League football is by investing heavily and obviously getting around those obstacles so if we can do that and just say, look listen we're here but we want to go to the next level is a good salary or do it smartly, I don't know I work in an office I wish I knew how to do this but you know what I mean but I'm not so sure. If you want to join us on the ToffeeTV Everton phone it is live Monday to Friday 5 o'clock on Live at 5 over on Patreon the link to join us is on the screen now.