what's up everyone take down here welcome back to another hockey card video today we're going to be opening up 18 packs of the 2020-21 SP authentic now these are just the three packs that you get at walmarts if i do like the base sets the base cards hopefully i will go for a complete sets like i did for 1920 i think i'm missing one for a complete set i think i'm missing number 100 which is ovechkin but if i do like these cards that's what i'm gonna go with hopefully we are today going to be able to find something cool hopefully a stutzel or josh norris because those are players that i do like hopefully the rookie cards but i prefer their numbered rookie cards or their jersey card would be awesome too or at least any kind of jersey card out of this because i did have great luck last year getting rookie jersey cards and jersey cards and i think an auto card too so hopefully i can get something cool out of this let's get opening here our first pack and my first look at this set so we have jack eichel at the front that is actually really cool i like how it focuses just on the player but it does have like in the circle here the team color at least what he was on so that's pretty cool base we have a sp authentic numbered card uh connor mc michael numbered 1156 out of 2299 so we do have a rookie numbered card here that's really cool oh then we have his regular blue rookie card in the back so that's really cool really cool that we get both of them uh then we do have nick schmaltz and jack praisy so i'm gonna put the base cards off to the side hopefully we will be able to get a complete set that'd be really cool uh ryan newgen hopkins hackenpa sp rookie probably bushered that's we have the blue variants for the base sets for alec tuck i actually like the blue a lot more than the silver the silver here you can barely see the silver in the background still looks really cool but the blue just shows up so much more that's really cool ovechkin and ruin hopefully we can get through these quick i was going to split it up into two videos that decided to do it into one i'll speed it up here we have mitch martiner ovechkin again usually you don't get too many doubles uh ooh we have a lufrenier uh sp rookie this is a card that i was hoping to get i would have preferred an auto or um a numbered version but really cool put that one separate here tabanin and halobuck in the blue patrick patrice bergeron bowden sp rookie peterson in the blue of course it's not going to focus today shon monahan and crumper really easy to open these packs i think bohovat peterson in the silver ooh a tyler benson sp rookie gold uh numbered 646 out of 999 that's really cool again i would have rather to be a jersey card but that is a really cool one i didn't get a numbered uh a gold one yet so i didn't know they had different variants we have the silver here mc michael and we have the tyler benson gold over here uh then we have an sp rookie for i'm not going to try to pronounce his last name here i always butcher the rookies and zack praisy again getting a few doubles which we didn't get before uh too many last year but obviously it's going to happen whenever you're getting we're just random packs at walmart gather here gibson nick robertson sp rookie that's really cool dustin brown in the blue and then peke rené i thought it was uh well that's going again i was going to say damn uh carlsson kravistov sp rookie stamp codes in the blue quinn hughes and brady kchuk that's a really cool one that one's going to go in my personal collection once i complete a set hopefully i'll find one uh single with anders lee oh vincent bannock not numbered but his silver almost foil sp rookie that's really cool uh alexander barkov authentic profiles keith yandle spas chanajo that's really cool i think these come in numbered as well victor headman zokarello ian mitchell sp ricky james reminisc and the blue and then patch relly like we've done nine packs so far yanny gourd carter heart authentic profiles that's really cool uh mark giadano back when he was with calgary that's awesome the blue uh drew in and aho where the keith yandle who's recently retired in the blue oh keith yandle in the silver that's really cool uh liam foodie sp rookie martin jones and james again now we have anders lee in the blue zokarello josh norris sp rookie this is one that i was wanting i did want either an auto card numbered card or a jersey card but it's nice to have this one as well so that's going in my personal collection hopkins and clingbird anders lee again this one's very popular today patrick cane authentic profiles matt murray now on toronto that's the blueboarder version warrenski beretan point yanny gourd i think i've already had this one at least uh in the blue authentic profiles schnefski i always put your name so i tried to put you that one thomas hurdle authentic profiles numbered 1494 out of 2299 that's really cool nice silver one goutter james again we've had him three times now jill pilvelski karmic david in the blue that's really cool we have an sp rookie for tim stitzel another one that i wanted to get again i would have preferred a auto card or a jersey card or something but pouncer kane and here she we have john gibson ulson vanek sp rookie we do have his silver one here his 401 so that's really cool kumper quinn hughes oh this one was blueboarder two packs left no jersey cards yet today that's very surprising before i did have a couple jersey cards mark stone who i did use to pc uh smoltz caliev sp rookie monohan crumper final pack here hopefully a jersey card unless maybe they don't put the jersey cards in these but before i had really good luck getting jersey cards out of these or maybe it was the blaster boxes but i was pretty sure i got them out of these packs here mathew kachuk peke rene in the blue lilagren sp rookie quinn hughes again and brady kachuk again i think i already found him so that one might be the one that goes my pc it's really really cool card so i do like the base set as i mentioned i think it only goes to 100 for the base set and then i think it goes the same in the blue yeah it does 21 so i think there's 100 for the silver 100 for the blue so hopefully i'll at least get the silver complete soon overall i do like these cards i think they were very very cool the design is always great with sp authentic do love these rookie cards kept with the same theme i like that they do have the foil rookie cards which i don't think i pulled last year i do like the silver numbered cards there we go let it focus and i didn't realize they did the gold ones but again we did not receive any jersey card auto card or anything of in my opinion substantial value but we did get three numbered cards we did get a foil rookie card ton of rookie cards ones that i do pc so that's going to be really really cool as well and overall i think this is a great product so comment down below what you guys think you guys think i should just opt in and try to get a 2020 21 hobby box for sp authentic i think they go for around 300 but obviously i'll use my youtube money do you think i should do that or do you think i should just get more packs of these try my luck and hopefully i will get a jersey card or something really cool out of it i did a great luck last year but something tells me my luck may have run out i might get some more of these packs and maybe do a video in the future but comment down below do you guys think it should get either a blaster box or a hobby box of this product and open it up on the channel hope you guys enjoyed this video and there's going to be more hockey cards to come i'll see you guys in the next one please take care peace


compulsory education in the United States the development of compulsory education Perhaps some people might feel that the identification of compulsory education with tyranny could not be applicable to a free country such as the United States. On the contrary, the spirit and record of compulsory education in America point to very similar dangers. In the majority of American colonies, education was in the English tradition, i.e. voluntary parental education, with the only public schools being those established for poor families free to make use of the facilities. This system originated in the middle and in the southern colonies. The crucial exception was New England, the spark plug of the collectivist educational system in America. In contrast to the other colonies, New England was dominated by the Calvinist tradition, among the English Puritans who settled Massachusetts and later the other New England colonies. The ruthless and ascetic Puritans who founded the Massachusetts Bay colony were eager to adopt the Calvinist plan of compulsory education in order to ensure the creation of good Calvinists and the suppression of any possible dissent. Only a year after its first set of particular laws, the Massachusetts Bay colony in 1642 enacted a compulsory literacy law for all children. Furthermore, whenever the state officials judged that the parents or guardians were unfit or unable to take care of the children properly, the state could seize the children and apprentice them to the state appointees who would give them the required instruction. This law of June 14, 1642 was notable because it was the first establishment of compulsory education in the English-speaking world. It therefore deserves quoting in some detail. Quote, For as much as the good education of children is of singular behoof and benefit to any commonwealth, and whereas many parents and masters are too indulgent and negligent of their duty of that kind, it is ordered that the select men of every town shall have a vigilant eye over their neighbours, to see first that none shall suffer so much barbarism in any of their families as not to endeavour to teach by themselves or others their children and apprentices. End quote. In 1647, the colony followed up this law with the establishment of public schools. The major stress in the compulsory education was laid on the teaching of Calvinist Puritan principles. It is significant that the slightly older and more religiously liberal pilgrim colony of Plymouth did not set up a compulsory educational system. When the Plymouth colony was merged into the Massachusetts Bay, however, the latter's education laws prevailed. What was the sort of government that set up the English-speaking world's first compulsory educational system, the future inspiration for the educational systems of the other states? The spirit of the government was Calvinist absolutism. Everyone in the colony was forced to attend a congregational church, although not everyone could qualify as a member. Only church members, however, could vote in the state elections. The principles of this theocratic government were that of order, with the superior and the inferior put in their proper place. The ministerial authority of the elders of the church was to prevail. In order to be admitted to church membership and voting rights, the candidate had to be scrutinized by the elders of the church, who determined whether or not there was something of God and grace in his soul, and therefore fit as a member. The great spiritual Puritan leader, the Reverend John Cotton, however, declared that hypocrites who merely conformed to the elders' rules without inner belief could still be members, provided that they were not idle in their occupations. It is interesting to note that the colony set up Harvard College in one of its first acts in 1636 as a state college. The authorities declared that schools must depend on the magistrates in order to prevent the corruption of sound doctrines. Another leading Puritan minister and ruler, the Reverend William Hubbard, declared that it is found by experience that the greatest part of mankind are but as tools and instruments for others to work by, rather than any proper agents to affect anything of themselves. They are always sheep requiring a shepherd. The magistrates are the governing force, the head of society. The Reverend John Davenport advised the electors to choose good rulers because it was imperative for them to submit to the ruler's authority. Quote, You must submit to their authority and perform all duties to them whom you have chosen, whether they be good or bad, by virtue of their relation between them and you. End quote. Thus formal democracy was early seen to be compatible with despotism of the rulers over the ruled. The most important influence in shaping the Massachusetts Bay colony was its first governor, John Winthrop, who ruled the colony for twenty years from its inception in 1630. Winthrop believed that natural liberty is a wild beast which must be restrained by God's ordinances. Correct civil liberty means being good in a way of subjection to authority. Winthrop regarded any opposition to the policies of the governor, particularly when he was the governor, as positively seditious. The governing of Massachusetts was fully in keeping with these principles. Heretics and assumed witches were persecuted and hounded and Puritan austerity and strict conformity in almost all areas of life were enforced. Dissenters like Roger Williams and Anne Hutchinson had to leave the colony. The Puritan soon spread out to other states and Connecticut was governed in the same spirit. Rhode Island however was far more liberal and it is no coincidence that Rhode Island was the exception in New England in the setting up of state school systems during the colonial period. During the 18th century the colonial religious severity gradually weakened its hold on the community. More sects arose and flourished. Massachusetts and Connecticut, however, enacted repressive laws against the Quakers, forbidding them also to establish schools. Furthermore, Connecticut, in a vain attempt to suppress the New Light movement, enacted a law in 1742 forbidding the New Lights from establishing any schools. Their reasons? That this may tend to train youth in principles and practices and introduce such disorders as may be of fatal consequences to the public peace and wheel of this colony. Some of the motivation for the religious indoctrination to compulsory education in the colonial period was economic. Servants were particularly required to be instructed as many of their masters believed that the servants were less prone to be independent and to give trouble when imbued with the catechism and the Puritan Bible. Finally, the Revolutionary War disrupted the entire education system and the independent states were ready to begin anew. The new states met the problem very much as they had done as colonies. Once again, Massachusetts led the way in establishing compulsory education, which her colonial laws had always provided. She took the unusual step of including in her state constitution of 1780 a provision expressly granting authority to the legislature to enforce compulsory attendance at school. This authority was promptly exercised and in 1789 school attendance was made compulsory in Massachusetts. Connecticut followed in 1805 with the law requiring all parents to educate their children. Connecticut followed this compulsory literacy with a law in 1842 requiring all employed children under 15 to attend school for three months during a year, thus adding a compulsory schooling to its general elementary compulsory education or literacy laws. Massachusetts laws were lax on truance however and in 1845 Boston attempted to pass a bill against truancy of unemployed children but lost on the ground that the rights of parents were threatened. The bill did pass in 1846 however. In 1850 Massachusetts authorised its towns to make provisions for habitual truance and provided that they could be confined in prison. Finally in 1852 Massachusetts established the first comprehensive statewide modern system of compulsory schooling in the United States. It provided that all children between 8 and 14 had to attend school at least 13 weeks each year. Massachusetts over the rest of the century continued to extend and strengthen its compulsory education laws. In 1862 for example it made jailing of habitual truant children mandatory and extended school age to between ages 7 and 16. In 1866 school attendance was made compulsory for six months during the year. This is not the place for a discussion of the battle for the public schools that transformed the American educational system from 1800 to 1850. The goal of the proponents of the drive will be analysed but suffice it to say that between 1825 and 1850 the propaganda work had been such that the non-New England states had changed from a system of no public schools or only pauper schools to the establishment of free schools available to all. Furthermore the spirit of the schools had changed from philanthropy to the poor to something which all children were induced to attend. By 1850 every state had a network of free public schools. In 1850 all the states had public schools but only Massachusetts and Connecticut were imposing compulsion. The movement for compulsory schooling conquered all of America in the late 19th century. Massachusetts began the parade and the other states all followed mainly in the 1870s and 1880s. By 1900 almost every state was enforcing compulsory attendance. There seemed to have been little debate over the issue of compulsory schooling. We can only guess at the reason for this neglect of a fundamental issue a neglect that is evident furthermore in every history of education. It may well be because the professional educationists knew that the issue might be a touchy one if the topic were unduly stressed in public debate. After citing some of the pro and con opinions on the compulsory schooling laws we will investigate the development of the educationists and their propaganda movements since they were instrumental in establishing public schools and enrolling their operations to this day. Arguments for and against compulsion in the United States. The individualist tradition on this matter was well presented in the early 19th century by Thomas Jefferson. Although an ardent advocate of public schools to aid the poor Jefferson squarely rejected compulsion. It is better to tolerate the rare instance of a parent refusing to let his child be educated than to shock the common feelings and ideas by the forcible transportation and education of the infant against the will of the father. Similarly a fellow Virginian of that period warned against any transfer of the rights of the parents to the government, thereby jeopardising the vital relation between parent and child. By the late 19th century however the individualist tradition had dwindled sharply. Typical in support of compulsory education was a report prepared by one of the professional educationist groups the Public Education Association of Philadelphia in 1898. It resolved that as long as there were ignorant or selfish parents compulsion must be used in order to safeguard the child's rights. The report complained that the Pennsylvania Compulsory Education Law of 1895 did not take effect in the city of Philadelphia and recommended that it do so. It indicated that one of the major forces for such laws came from the budding trade union movement. The report greatly praised the Prussian system and its compulsory attendance record. It praised Massachusetts and Prussia for their systems of only permitting schooling in private schools when they fulfilled the requirements imposed by the government school committee. It also lauded the fact that Massachusetts and New York had set up truant schools and if parents refused to give permission for their truant child to be sent there the courts could commit him to the institution. The spirit of the professional educationists is indicated in some of the statements mentioned in this report. Thus a Brooklyn educator criticized the existing system of discharging truant children on July 31st of each year and advocated that the sentence be extended indefinitely until evidence of reform is shown or until the child is past school age. In other words, complete seizure and incarceration of young truants. A school superintendent of Newburgh, New York suggested that children over 14 who had not attended school and were therefore above the age limit for compulsion should be forced to attend schools for manual training, music and military drill. Prussia was also the ideal for a prominent newspaper supporting compulsory education. The influential New York Sun declared that children must have education and that they should be obliged to receive it from the state. It praised the universality of the compulsory education system in Prussia and other German states. In 1872 Secretary B. G. Northrup of the Connecticut State Board of Education felt it self-evident that the children had sacred rights to education and that growing up in ignorance was a crime. We have seen in the first section that everyone including the illiterate attained knowledge and education even if not formally instructed. The leading educationist body, the National Education Association resolved in its 1897 meeting in favor of state laws for compulsory attendance. Thus we see that the professional educationists were the major force assisted by the trade unions in imposing compulsory education in America. There was a flurry of opposition to compulsory education in the early 1890s but by that time the movement was on its way to a clear victory. Twice in 1891 and 1893 Governor Patterson of Pennsylvania a state with a tradition of freedom in education vetoed compulsory education bills on the grounds that any interference with the personal liberty of the parents is un-American in principle. The law passed in 1895 however when Governor Hastings signed the bill with great reluctance. In 1892 the Democratic Party National Platform declared quote we are opposed to state interference with parental rights and rights of conscience in the education of children as an infringement of the fundamental Democratic doctrine that the largest individual liberty consistent with the rights of others ensures the highest type of American citizenship and the best government. End quote. The goals of public schooling the educationist movement it is important to consider the goals of the establishment of public schools particularly since professional educators were the prime force in both the establishment of free common schools and of compulsory instruction. In the first place the desire for public schools by such quasi-libertarians as Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine was based on a belief that Republican government is best suited for well-schooled citizens and that the government should make such institutions available for those too poor to afford them privately. Certainly many of those who advocated for the establishment of public schools did it simply for this reason. There were other and more dangerous goals however particularly among the educationists who were the main forces in the drive and who took control of the state boards of education and teachers training colleges which instructed the public school teachers. As early as 1785 the Reverend Jeremy Belknap preaching before the New Hampshire general court advocated equal and compulsory education for all emphasising that the children belong to the state and not to the parents. The influential Benjamin Rush wanted general education in order to establish a uniform, homogeneous and egalitarian nation. The doctrine of obedience to the state was the prime goal of the father of the public school system in North Carolina, Archibald D. Murphy. In 1816 Murphy planned a system of state schools as follows, quote, all children will be taught in them. In these schools the precepts of morality and religion should be inculcated and habits of subordination and obedience be formed. State in the warmth of her solicitude for their welfare must take charge of those children and place them in school where their minds can be enlightened and their hearts can be trained to virtue. End quote. By the 1820s their goals of compulsion and statism were already germinating over the country and particularly flourishing in New England although the individualist tradition was still strong. One factor that increased the power of New England in diffusing the collectivist idea in education was the enormous migration from that area. New Englanders swarmed south and west out of New England and carried their zeal for public schooling and for state compulsion with them. Into this atmosphere was injected the closest that the country had seen to Plato's idea of full state communist control over the children. This was the plan of two of the first socialists in America Francis Wright and Robert Dale Owen. Owen was the son of one of the first British utopian socialists and with Robert Owen his father had attempted an experiment in a voluntary communist community in New Harmony, Indiana. Francis Wright was a Scots woman who had also been at New Harmony and with Owen opened a newspaper called The Free Inquirer. Their main objective was to campaign for their compulsory education system. Wright and Owen outlined their scheme as follows. Quote. It is national, rational, republican education for all at the expense of all conducted under the guardianship of the state and for the honour, the happiness, the virtue, the salvation of the state. End quote. The major aim of the plan was that equality be implanted in the minds, the habits, the manners and the feelings so that eventually fortunes and conditions would be equalised. Instead of the intricate apparatus of common schools, high schools, seminaries, etc. Wright and Owen advocated that the state simply organise a series of institutions for the general reception of all children living within that district. These establishments would be devoted to the complete rearing of the various age groups of children. The children would be forced to live at these places 24 hours a day. The parents would be allowed to visit their children from time to time. From the age of two every child would be under the care and guidance of the state. Quote. In these nurseries of a free nation no inequality must be allowed to enter. Fared at a common board, clothed in a common garb, raised in the exercise of common duties. In the exercise of the same virtues. In the enjoyment of the same pleasures. In the study of the same nature. In pursuit of the same object. Say would not such a race work out the reform of society and perfect the free institutions of America. End quote. Owen was quite insistent that the system not embrace anything less than the whole people. The effect will be to regenerate America in one generation. It will make but one class out of the many. Francis Wright revealed the aim of the system starkly, calling on the people to overthrow a moneyed aristocracy and priestly hierarchy. The present is a war of class. Thus we see that a new element has been introduced into the old use of compulsory education on behalf of state absolutism. A second goal is absolute equality and uniformity. And a compulsory school system was seen by Owen and Wright to be ideally suited to this task. First the habits and minds and feelings of all the children must be moulded into absolute equality. And then the nation will be ripe for the final step of equalization of property and incomes by means of state coercion. Why did Owen and Wright insist on seizing the children for 24 hours a day from the age of two on only releasing them when the school age was over at 16? As Owen declared, quote, in Republican schools there must be no temptation to the growth of aristocratical prejudices. The pupils must learn to consider themselves as fellow citizens, as equals. Respect ought not to be paid to riches or withheld from poverty. Yet if the children from these state schools are to go every evening, the one to his wealthy parents' soft carpeted drawing room, and the other to its poor father's or widowed mother's comfortless cabin, will they return the next day as friends and equals? End quote. Likewise, differences in quality of clothing invoked feelings of envy on the part of the poor and disdain by the rich, which should be eliminated by forcing one uniform upon both. Throughout his plans there runs the hatred of human diversity, of the higher living standards of the rich, as compared to the poor. To effect his plan for thoroughgoing equalisation by force, the schools, quote, must receive the children not for six hours a day, but altogether, must feed them, clothe them, lodge them, must direct not their studies only, but their occupations and amusements, and must care for them until their education is completed. End quote. It might be asserted that the Owen Wright Plan is unimportant, that it had purely crackpot significance and little influence. The contrary is true. In the first place, the plan had a great deal of influence. Certainly the ideas of promoting equality were dominant in the thinking of the influential group of educationists that established and controlled the public schools of the nation during the 1830s and 1840s. Furthermore, the Owen Plan pushes the whole idea of compulsory state schooling to its logical conclusion. Not only by promoting state absolutism and absolute equality, to which the system is admirably suited, but also because Owen recognised that he had to educate the whole child in order to mould the coming generation sufficiently. Is it not probable that the progressive drive to educate the whole child aims to mould the child's entire personality in lieu of the complete Owen Wright compulsory communist seizure, which no one in America would accept? The influence of the Owen Wright Plan is attested to by the fact that a contemporary laudatory historian of the public school movement places it first in his story and devotes considerable space to it. Kremlin reports that a great many newspapers reprinted Owen's essays on the plan and approved them. Owen began expounding his project in the late 1820s and continued on until the late 1840s when he wrote the elaborated plan with Miss Wright. It had a considerable influence on workers' groups. It exerted a great influence on the widely noted report of a committee of Philadelphia workers in 1829 to report on education in Pennsylvania. The report called for equality and equal education and proper training for all. And this and similar reports had a considerable influence in preparing the way for the progressive legislation of the middle 30s. Shortly thereafter there arose on the American scene a remarkable phenomenon a closely knit group of educationists. Kremlin calls them educational reformers whose tireless propaganda was instrumental in pushing through public schools who then came to control the schools through positions on the state boards of education as superintendents etc. through the control of teachers' training institutions and thereby of the teachers. This same grouping under different names continues to dominate primary and secondary education to this day with their own tightly knit ideas and jargon. Most important they have managed to impose their standards on state certification requirements for teachers so that no one can teach in a public school who does not go through a course of teacher training instruction run by the educationists. It was this same group that pushed through compulsory education and advocated more and more progressive education therefore they deserve close scrutiny. Some Americans pride themselves that their educational system can never be tyrannical because it is not federally but state controlled. This makes very little difference however. Not only does this still mean the government whether state or federal but also the educationists through national associations and journals are almost completely coordinated. In actuality therefore the school systems are nationally and centrally controlled and formal federal control would only be the crowning step in the drive for national conformity and control. Another important source of tyranny and absolutism in the school system is the fact that the teachers are under civil service. As a result once a formal examination is passed and this has little relation to actual teaching competence and a little time passes the teacher is on the public payroll and foisted on the children for the rest of his working life. The government bureaucracy has fostered civil service as an extraordinarily powerful tool of entrenchment and permanent domination. Tyranny by majority vote may be unpleasant enough but at least if the rulers are subject to democratic checks they have to please the majority of the voters but government officials who cannot be voted out at the next election are not subject to any democratic check whatever. They are permanent tyrants. Taking something out of politics by putting it under civil service certainly does increase the morale of the bureaucracy. It elevates them into near perpetual absolute rulers in their sphere of activity. The fact that teachers are under civil service is one of the most damning indictments against the American compulsory system of today. To return to the first educationists the main figures in the movement were such men as New Englanders, Horace Mann in Massachusetts and Henry Bernard in Connecticut also James Carter, Calvin Stowe, Caleb Mills, Samuel Lewis and many others. What were their methods and their goals? One of the methods to achieve their aims was to found a welter of interlocking educational organisations. One of the first was the American Lyceum organised in 1826 by Isaiah Holbrook. A major aim was to influence and try to dominate state and local boards of education. In 1827 the first Society for the Promotion of Public Schools was opened in Pennsylvania. This society engaged in an extensive programme of correspondence pamphlets, press releases, etc. Similar organisations were formed in the early 1830s throughout the West with lectures, meetings, memorials to legislatures and lobbying featured. Hundreds of such associations formed throughout the land. One of the principal ones was the American Institute of Instruction established in New England in 1830. The annual meetings and papers of this institute were one of the leading clearing houses and centres of educationist movements. Secondly, the educationists formed educational journals by the dozens through which the leading principals were disseminated to the followers. Principal ones were the American Journal of Education, the American Analysts of Education, the Common School Assistant and the Common School Journal. The most important route of educationist influence was obtaining leading positions in the state school systems. Thus Horace Mann, editor of the Common School Journal became Secretary of the Massachusetts Board of Education and his annual reports during the 1840s were extremely influential in setting the educationists' line. Henry Bernard became Secretary of the Connecticut Board of Education, Calvin Wiley became head of the public schools in North Carolina, Caleb Mills in Indiana, Samuel Lewis in Ohio, etc. The educationists, particularly under the influence of Horace Mann did not go as far as advocating compulsory education but they went up to that point in calling on everyone to go to the public schools and in disparaging private schools. They were particularly eager to induce everyone to go to the public schools so that all might be moulded in the direction of equality. Virginia's educationist Charles Mercer wrote a eulogy of the Common School which it might be well to compare with Owen's plan. The equality on which our institutions are founded cannot be too intimately interwoven in the habits of thinking among our youth and it is obvious that it would be greatly promoted by their continuance together for the longest possible period in the same schools of juvenile instruction to sit upon the same forms, engage in the same competitions, partake of the same recreations and amusements and pursue the same studies in connection with each other under the same discipline and in obedience to the same authority. And Mercer was the leader in Virginia's educationist movement. The vigorous championing of the public schools levelling role appeared again and again in the educationists literature. Samuel Lewis particularly stressed that the common schools would take a diverse population and mould them into one people. Theodore Edson exalted that in such schools the good children must learn to mingle with the bad ones as they will have to do in later life. The influential Orville Taylor, editor of the Common School Assistant, declared, let all send to it the common school. This is duty. And in 1837 words very much like Mercer's and Owen's quote, where high and low are taught in the same class and out of the same book and by the same teacher. This is a republican education. End quote. Hand in hand with such sentiments went disparagement of the private schools. This theme appeared almost universally in the educationist writings. James Carter stressed it in the 1820s. Orville Taylor declined in terms reminiscent of Owen that if a rich child is sent to a private school he will be taught that he is better than a public school child. This is not republicanism. The educationists thought it essential to inculcate the children with moral principles. And this meant religious faith as well. They could not be sectarian however and still induce all the religious groups to send their children to public schools. Therefore they decided to teach the fundamentals of Protestant Christianity in the public schools as the common faith of everyone. This solution might not have been too glaring in the early period but heavy immigration of Catholics soon after mid-century created insuperable difficulties in such a programme. Another interesting facet of this period was an indication of the great limitation imposed on the educationists because instruction was still voluntary. Since parents could choose or not to send their children to the public schools, the teaching bureaucracy could not have full sway. The parents were still in control. Therefore there could not be any religious absolutism. Furthermore Horace Mann was emphatic in insisting that for all controversial political subjects the teacher must be neutral. If he is not strictly neutral then the parents of opposing views would not send their children to the public schools and the ideal of uniform equal education for all would be defeated. Thus we see the enormous importance of voluntary education as a check on tyranny. The public schools had to be kept politically as well as religiously neutral. One basic flaw in this plan of course is that in dealing with political and economic subjects it is almost impossible to treat them intelligently and accurately while being strictly neutral and avoiding all controversy. It is obviously the best plan however given the establishment of public schools. The educationists chafed at these restrictions and looked toward the Prussian model where these difficulties did not arise. Actually they were only politically neutral where no great controversies existed and they inculcated American nationalism and uniformity of language. Calvin Stowe urged adoption of the Prussian methods although he claimed of course that in America the results would be Republican and not despotic. Stowe urged the universal placing of school duty on the same plane as military duty. The influential Stowe spoke in almost the same terms in 1836 as had Martin Luther three centuries before. Quote If a regard to the public safety makes it right for a government to compel the citizens to do military duty when a country is invaded the same reason authorizes the government to compel them to provide for the education of their children for no foes are so much to be dreaded as ignorance and vice. A man has no more right to endanger the state by throwing upon it a family of ignorant and vicious children than he has to give admission to spies of an invading army. If he is unable to educate his children the state should assist him. If unwilling it should compel him. General education is as much certain and much less expensive means of defence than military array. Popular education is not so much a want as a duty as education is provided by the parents and paid for by those who do not profit by its results it is a duty. End quote Another principle of the Prussian system which Stowe admired was its compulsory uniformity of language. He also praised its vigorous compulsory attendance and antitruant laws. Stowe's report on Prussian education was enormously influential among the educationists and they took his lead on the subject. Man and Bernard held similar views although the former hesitated on compulsion. Bernard was not reluctant however. Praising the Prussian educational system he wrote quote The regular attendance at the school shall be an object of specific control and the most active vigilance. For this is the source from which flow all the advantages the school can produce. It would be very fortunate if parents and children were always willing of themselves. Unhappily this is not the case particularly in great cities. Although it is lamentable to be forced to use constraint it is almost always necessary to commence with it. End quote Horace Mann's sincerity was certainly open to question. In his annual reports he denounced property rights and talked of social control and the one commonwealth's property. On the other hand while asking for gifts from the industrialists for the schools he abandoned this line and his talk of political neutrality and declared that he thoroughly approved of indoctrination against Jacksonian democracy and mobocracy. Henry Bernard also approved of indoctrination for property as against mob rebellion. It is obvious that the educationists chafed hugely against the restraints of volunteerism. What was needed to permit state indoctrination and uniformity was the Prussian system of compulsion. This was adopted in the late 19th century and the wraps were off. Neutrality would no longer need to be imposed or claimed. Another educationist declaration on behalf of state authority was made by the influential Josiah Quincy, Mayor of Boston and President of Harvard who declared in 1848 that every child should be educated to obey authority. George Emerson in 1873 asserted that it was very necessary for people to be accustomed from their earliest years to submit to authority. These comments were printed in leading educationist journals Common School Journal and School and Schoolmaster respectively. The influential Jacob Abbott declared in 1856 that a teacher must lead his students to accept the existing government. The superintendent of public instruction of Indiana declared in 1853 that school policy was to mould all the people into one people with one common interest. Progressive Education and the Current Scene It is obvious that there is little time or space here to enter into an extensive discussion of the much criticised system of permissive progressive education and the state of current teaching in the public schools. Certain broad considerations however, emerge particularly in the light of the triumph of the Rousseau Pestilocy Dewey system in this country since 1900. 1. The effect of progressive education is to destroy independent thought in the child indeed to repress any thought whatsoever. Instead the children learn to revere certain heroic symbols, Gentile or to follow the domination of the group as in Lafcadio Hearn's Japan. Thus subjects are taught as little as possible and the child has little chance to develop any systematic reasoning powers in the study of definite courses. This program is being carried forward into high school as well as grammar school so that many high school graduates are ignorant of elementary spelling or reading and cannot write a cogent sentence. The ruling set of educationists are on the way to establishing colleges of this type in which there would be no systematic courses and have largely succeeded in the case of their teacher training schools. The policy of letting the child what he likes is an insidious one since the children are encouraged to continue always at their original superficial level without receiving guidance in study. Furthermore the three Rs, the fundamental tools are neglected as long as possible with the result that the child's chance to develop his mind is greatly retarded. The policy of teaching words via pictures instead of by the alphabet tends to deprive the young child of the greatest reasoning tool of all. 2. Equality and uniformity are pursued more than ever even under the guise of letting individuals do as they like. The plan is to abolish grades by which better and worse children know the extent to their progress and instead to grade subjectively or not at all. Subjective grading is a monstrous scheme to grade each student on the basis of what the teacher arbitrarily thinks the capacities of the child are the grading to be rated on the extent to which the child fulfills these capacities.  Studies tend to be pursued now at the lowest common denominator rather than at the average so as not to frustrate the more moronic. As a result the bright pupils are robbed of incentive or opportunity to study and the dull ones are encouraged to believe that success in the form of grades, promotions etc will come to them automatically. Individuality is suppressed by teaching all to adjust to the group. All emphasis is on the group and the group votes runs its affairs by majority rule etc. As a result the children are taught to look for truth in the opinion of the majority rather than in their own independent inquiry or in the intelligence of the best in the field. Children are prepared for democracy by being led to discuss current events without first learning the systematic subjects politics, economics, history which are necessary in order to discuss them. The mole effect is to substitute slogans and superficial opinion for considered individual thought and the opinion is that of the lowest common denominator of the group. It is clear that one of the major problems comes from the dullest group. The progressive educationists saw that the dullest could not be taught difficult subjects or indeed simple subjects. Instead of drawing the logical conclusion of abandoning compulsory education for the uneducable they decided to bring education down to the lowest level so that the dullest could absorb it in fact to move toward the elimination of subjects or grading altogether. 3. The emphasis on frills on physical education play and numerous trivial courses again has the effect of being comprehensible to the most moronic and hence ensuring completely equal instruction for all. Furthermore the more such subjects are emphasised the less room there is for systematic thought. 4. The idea that the school should not simply teach subjects but should educate the whole child in all phases of life is obviously an attempt to arrogate to the state all the functions of the home. It is an attempt to accomplish the moulding of the child without actually seizing him as in the plans of Plato or Owen. 5. Unquestionably the effect of all this is to foster dependence of the individual on the group and on the state.


16 men have started at quarterback for this organization since we became the Tennessee Titans. We'll leave out current Titans quarterbacks Ryan Tannehill and Marcus Mariota to focus on the other 14. Steve McNair made the most starts with 131 followed by Vince Young with 47, Kerry Collins with 32, Jake Locker with 23 and Matt Hasselbeck with 21. Until there it gets interesting. Zach Bettenberger and Billy Volick both started 10 games at quarterback for the Titans. Ryan Fitzpatrick made 9 starts, Neil O'Donnell started 8 games. The next bunch is led by Charlie Whitehurst with 5 starts, Blaine Gavrette with 3 and Matt Cassel with 2. The 2 remaining only started 1 game apiece. Matt Mock started the 2005 season finale in Jacksonville and Rusty Smith got the start at Houston in 2010.


Hi everyone, for those that just joined, I am filming the Google Doc. Please feel free to go in, put your name down, if you have any updates or you want to share with a group, just write something and parentheses beside your name. Let's wait a couple of minutes for more folks to track all in. If there is anyone that can help us scribe, don't have to be too detailed, kind of just take notes on what sounds like action items that would be appreciated. Thank you again, Alex. It's good that you've been doing it a lot recently. Thank you very much. Alright, a couple more folks joining in so let's wait until they are connected and then let's start. Let's address in the matrix. I don't know. You should tell us then address. I wish I knew. The stream everyone sends on to that. Alright, looks like everyone pretty much is connected now. So that's that I pasted in the notes again, please put in your name and the attendances. And if you have any updates, put an inference beside. Today we have a pretty packed agenda. We have several discussion topics and several new issues and updates on certain projects. So let's get started until we're going to go do a round of check-in. So let's say no dates before we get started. This meeting is recorded and it follows the CNCF code of conduct guidelines so standard rules of black. So going through a CLCB fulfilling in the list so I will make sure I swing back to do another check. Diego, you have an update on the county security map. I didn't really have a gender item of this right. So I can, you can talk about it then, or do you have something else that's not on the agenda. No, no, but I can talk about it. So let me just share one second. I mean, I think we're already on the agenda right so we'll get into that later. Okay. Yeah, okay. All right. Next up, Mark PCI Council update. Hey guys, this will be really fast. I mentioned this a few meetings back. PCI Council is writing a container security test practices documented for payment card into PCI payment card industry. So finance centric, but this is really the best practices for containers. I'm going to steal stuff from our own white papers and so on. So if people want to be party to that and help me write paragraphs to that I'm mainly looking at the ICD aspects of this. That's the best. Awesome. And if you have any links, please add them to the document and chat. Yeah, I've got a list or you have to be party to it. Thanks. All right. Emily. Do you want to like to come updates and then the other stuff in the agenda. I actually had two of them so lexicon is going forward doing the team is doing a great job of providing some of those definitions for terms. Not quite ready for everyone to start reviewing it yet but they're getting closer. The other one was a quick update on security pals. They've reached out to cross plane and artifact hub at a minimum those two but I believe there's there's third one that I'm probably forgetting about starting conversations. Everyone seems interested and that's kind of where we're at those. Awesome. Is there is there any. Is there any ask for any volunteer so any, any ways to contribute that. So the, the security pals is just limited to the three projects currently and the few and the those individuals that we have working on it and this is to test our engagement early with sandbox projects to determine their appetite for completing a self assessment. Awesome. All right, cool. All right, Tim, you want to talk a little bit about the automatic scribe. Tim, we can't hear you if you're talking I just want to make sure you hear me now. Yes. Okay, cool. So I just put the link in there and love for people to just see how does it work. I think we're getting pretty close. You can do it asynchronously enough to do it. Now, pretty close to like starting to implement this so that you'd be able to access this. So the scribe the search, I think one of the cool features people are playing around with if you add plus one it automatically captures that snippet and puts it in the side. But we don't need to spend time on it right now you guys can look at it on your own and then give me feedback because I'm getting close to like getting to implementation to make it available for all of you guys for transcription and summaries. Thanks, Tim. Yeah, it's really it's a really cool thing and yeah. I think one of the nice features if you go to the site it's like if someone in the chat said like, toss one something or like this. It will kind of try and detect what was important and action items and kind of track them. Yeah. Cool. Thanks, Tim. Going to the updates here. Robert says it's going to be joining late. We can put him on the agenda later. Raghashree. Okay, so you have to cover my Emily that's all good. We had a TLC meeting on Tuesday. Andres and I were there to kind of represent the sake, and they were talking about incubation processes and that the main part of it is like, yeah, they're making the TLC sponsor own the entire incubation process. Andres, do you want to talk a little bit or chime in on that. Yeah, sorry I was just typing pasting the PR and chat for those interested in the details, but the gist of it is the TLC is trying to streamline the incubation process by appointing a designated talk sponsor upfront. Andres has been a project going over the due diligence requirements and chasing different sakes and filling out the doc ahead of time, they would first find someone in the talk to sponsor the project and hand hold them and direct them throughout the process. So from a security perspective, we would typically either hear from, well, from this point on would be hearing from the talk liaison, or from the talk sponsor for the project of we have a project in pipeline. We need a security review or we need a recommendation, rather than some project we might have not heard of coming to present to us first try to get buy in for us to try to go sell it to the talk so that's the part of it. I'm pasting the PR right here. I can scratch all the text that I was writing around it and just give you the link. Awesome. Yeah, and I think I think throughout like we were having some conversations on the call about you know what is what is really requested to say and I think this acknowledge that security is kind of a special case in which our security is kind of a little bit different from the other six right it's not just for the it's been an ecosystem and it's good technology but even for the non security projects for you we do also need to provide time for that. So quickly add on to that. That was a topic of conversation today with the talk liaison Liz and Justin that they're looking at ways in which we can highlight the security of projects regardless of the stage that they're at and what mechanisms we can engage with them either asynchronously or synchronously to improve their overall security posture. That's right. Ultimately that's the goal. Yeah, and while the other thing is it was typically very consuming for for the talk, you have the entire to see on the call listening to a proposal to hear out things that they could have read through the red red me file of read me file of the project. So also moving away from presentation proposals and more like fleshed out written proposals. From a security standpoint, we would still want to hear presentations throughout assessment processes because it helps us inform the assessment and a lot of the as Marios, in which a project might be deployed. So, yeah, well, this has yet to be merged will learn more as as this gets implemented, and we go through it. Let's see how much changes. Cool. All right. Let's get to the agenda. So quick announcement before we hit to Tim, just since he has to leave for the early so quick reminder, cognitive security day is made up of this con coupons that have been sent out in the sick mailing list. If you are not yet subscribed to the sick mailing list, please do so. Yeah, so there's like, I think it was a 20% discount or something. Any additional notes of that interest in Emily. Oh, that's pretty much it. You're good. Awesome. All right, let's hit the Tim then. So 10% that a couple weeks back and then this is a follow up. I'm going to pass it to you to kind of do the introduction. Okay, super. Yeah, thanks. So it seemed like a good time we're working on the white paper I really read it like three weeks ago so maybe some of the observations are not germane at this point. But I'm also coming up with the roadmap and the way I kind of like thinking about robust I'd like to write out like a blog that like tells the overarching story and then I figure out kind of what fits into it and I figured this is like a really good group for us to figure out. It just makes sense and that the difference at the time when I read it but it's how I was starting out my blog and how I think through the roadmap was getting a handle on the problem space and seeing well what what seems to be the issues what are a priority and then for this group what what should we try to solve for or even can we solve for them so that's what I wanted to like get some feedback on really quickly so here's how I started was thinking you know and at the time when I read it I was like well it would help to understand when we talk about supply chain where are the problems we could visualize I'm not saying this is the right way I liked it because it was a good starting point there's lots of different ways you could do it, but it does start to put into context. Okay, there are lots of pieces in a supply chain, and then what tend to be the attack vectors. Based on that, and then from there iterate because I think last time we started to go down into the tooling tool chain discussion, and I felt oh it might be better to start. Hey, let's frame it as what the problems are and then we can iterate on tools or a list of tools and that would be helpful for me to. So so I'd love some thoughts and feedback on that that's kind of how I've been doing and then I try to make it a little bit more explicit in my own mind. What is the range of the attack vectors and so this is a bunch of different sources and the stuff that I threw in there and this is where I could use some some some guidance but you can kind of see this one bucket around code signing like that seems to be a bucket that stands alone but there's a couple of different ways people access it something that we would call. I think the terms pretty good distribution vectors which is how do they get the malware to be distributed. I was sort of pinging on a little bit because it wasn't really covered in either in really great detail on many of the sources. I've read by been thinking about a lot was, you know, the identity problem, which is, you know, a bad actor, unknown actor, or, you know, a fraudulent actor and kind of like how do they, you know, do that and if you kind of think about we don't sometimes we don't really even know who's contributing and we think they're legitimate or they're bad, or, and it was a takeover. It's been very specific things. Yeah. Could you give like a little bit of context just in case for those people that were not previous on the previous call. What is kind of like the, the, the, the end goal. Oh, right. Yeah, so the end goal was, I wanted to figure out what do we want to do in terms of approaches, like we already are planning on rolling out some kind of basic vulnerability detection that has dependency mapping that seems to be kind of well defined. And I wanted to see what else is, is, is next like the next thing that we know is going to be keys. Scanning for keys and sort of kind of fits somewhere in SCI I suppose kind of sub bullet. But some of the things I was getting stuck on was, well our people interested in, you know, DAS there's a lot of complexity because I started to go down the path of evaluating a DAS solution but I was like, oh but you know everybody's runtime is sort of different to people want to bother with instrumenting that blah, blah, blah, blah, sassed fuzzing. And then I started exploring a solution around code search, which was more initially around improving productivity for developers so it's like, you know, imagine it's like Splunk or Google but for your code. But I started to ask the creators of this tool, you know, is there a security application because I feel sometimes there's issues when you have sort of these vulnerability databases whereas people who are closer to the code may start to think through what the vulnerability patterns are they may just want to do a fast search in real time, or build out their own libraries on their own. So I want my end state is this, like, what do you guys think we should try to consider making a standard offering that's enabled through a security portal for projects to ease the instrumentation and reporting. But before I could get to the tools I wanted to understand well what are meaningful problems, and then we can kind of say well. Yeah let's try to explore these tools. And then when you say offering that would be an offering from the Linux Foundation, a host. That's correct. And so the way we've been doing it is and that's why the tooling discussion will be in fact valuable when we get there is. And one of the things I had heard was oh well there's lots of different tools I have to pick a tool how do you get neutrality. So we're going to take that out by saying okay we're going to vet vendor a without some arrangement and a lot of times we have to make the spoke arrangements in terms of billing or integrations or the UX to solve for certain things so you know and the goal would be okay now you have a single control plane that you could then govern it for a project instrument your repos and you know kind of simplify and not have people have to go and search a vendor and then do a POC and all this other stuff. Hey Tim it's you know that I think there is a similar approach and our voices of open software security foundation, and that they are doing creating their own tools and services to improve the supply chain security right so So do you want justice to be focused on commercial vendors or do you just want to No, no, no I definitely want the open I've tried to reach out to open SSF and I couldn't get clarity how far along the tools were, whether we should do it or not and so I figured let me triangulate by having, you know, a different set of practitioners, some that you guys might be neutral whether it's from open SSF or commercial versus they're doing it and that way I can kind of harmonize between the two. I don't have a clear picture of what they're going to do when it's going to be available. What's the difference between that and commercial tools that we try to offer so I think that's part of this exercise. Yeah, so they're going beyond SCA and vulnerability right so they're also considering other attributes about open source libraries, securities and risk like they do have a package feed and the criticality score. There are multiple tools around there and they have a dashboard where they calculate all these metrics and give you some knowledge score for the for an open source package right so I think it's good to consider those tools and some of these tools are not necessarily going to help that much with the supply chain problem it may help with the application security of the software in building inside a company not necessarily a supply chain security specific right like SAST it is not that practical to scan all the open source code through a SAST like I don't know how many companies are doing that and even yeah so SCA itself is kind of a limited approach for open source security. Yeah, that's kind of what I've been sensing to but I couldn't, I couldn't tell when I synced up with David, what's the status on, you know, release and is it working and is the metrics well defined. So if all the tools from so on the extreme if everything from open SSF will fit all the needs and requirements from a group like this, then problem solved. If there's a gap, and we need some commercial tool, then, or other tool, then I would like to understand that. One example for example is fuzzing so when I would talk to them they said well yeah you know open fuzz is available, but part of me was like but even if it's available how easy is it, and how widespread is it used across projects and so there we would be tackling okay maybe we have a control plane, which is makes it much easier for everyone to run code against open fuzz if that isn't done, or, you know, helps them to record the output or select what the library is used like that I'm open to as well. So I have a quick question. Tim is there a path or a mechanism by which as the SIG discovers gaps in these particular areas that we're expected to engage with the foundation to highlight an overwhelming need in this particular area. We have a lot of projects ongoing the supply chain paper is one of them. There's the map and as some of the SIG leadership as well as a lot of the SIG members and the community members are discussing like the current state of things and other attack just happened. What do we do what are we recommending to people we're starting to realize key areas such as the ones that you pointed out for which there is a lack of tooling that's available to the community. And we're struggling with where do we where do we write all that down right now that looks like cards in our repo. But is there a path by which we can engage and say hey, we were doing X, Y and Z. We've noticed that this is a potential problem area and we'd like you guys to focus on this or just just a place where we can point to. That's a super great question to which I don't have an answer.  What's useful for you. I actually don't have it's a super great answer. And I think having a solution would be super I don't have a prescription at this point so what what what do you think works for you and if it's like the least friction and highest fidelity for you, then I'll just follow, and then I'll just use that as a source of truth for the C&C of SIG. I think you have you've got a couple of areas that are already here that are called out as potential problem cases. I think if it's intended to be our SIG ownership of those problem areas from a security focus remember that that's kind of like how we're scoped, maybe having something akin to this listing in our repo where we we've particularly called out problem space, and then just engaging with the foundation to be like hey you can always go here and look for any things that we identify. But again, we're going to be limited in scope to just that, whereas storage secrets management, there's a couple of other areas that have similar problems where they're finding gaps in the community that are not necessarily security specific. I see. I know that at least the TOC has asked us to kind of engage them with helping to identify where there may be not really gaps well gaps in terms of open source projects. I think we have kind of that. We should have a discussion there. And part of the part of the landscape size security map was to do together some data. So, I think that what you laid out here Tim is probably a good start as well to kind of have a discussion around this. So I just want to do to understand so you that's I think that's like two different discussion points. One of them is discussing what are some things that we need to do to enable like maybe invest in a new project to enable the security community as a whole. And the specific problem that you're looking at here is how do I increase the security of open source projects with by providing a service right just to make sure that I'm not mixing up two of them. Yeah, I that sounds right, you know, and I tried so this one I started from scratch but then we did that whole exercise for the DoD and I reach back to them say hey what's the published outcome for what you guys did they didn't they haven't gotten back to me the two folks that are that are working on it so I, you know, we could always you know I like the format that we did last time to as a spreadsheet and you know that was super valuable. So I'm pretty open, and I'm hearing the two things one is what's the list that you guys like this one's probably not a very great great list I just pulled it out of my whatever kind of like jamming through it just to give a context but you guys probably know a lot more. And then like you said, where do we go to find it. So I'm open to what they think the form for the right form factor is, meaning, you know, I like the idea of a repo. I also like how we have that spreadsheet which allowed us to kind of say here's the problem is what the thing with the solution was that seemed interesting because then could add on. Here's how we plan to do implementation. Or here's an existing solution then the kind of debate, oh open SSF solves this or this is a better solution and stuff like that. So those would be the outcomes but I don't have a prescription. So here there should be consideration that a lot of the projects are run by skeleton cruise and the fact that they don't do this things are is not out of neglect is they prioritize other things. Exactly. Yeah. Okay, go ahead. One of the stories you've actually stated the sub problem, which we're trying to solve is how do we make it super easy. How do we make it for those that are skeleton cruise to still have some level of security assurance. Like the higher order bit question is, okay, what's the scope of the problems which I'm turning to you guys as practitioners, what it is, and then the product aspect is okay how do we enable it for the persona of someone who doesn't really have time. Yeah. Like take flossing for example, I've seen maintainers of the flossing projects for the creators of a flossing tool approach CNCF projects and say hey, we'll help you implement flossing and maintainers like don't have actually not taking those offers, even though they're getting it from the expert. And a lot of it is, well, there's there's a whole lot more to this and their implications and their considerations. So if it were something similar to the CNCF service desk model where the LF is going to make a person available to work with maintainers and help them expedite all the due diligence to be able to, like the problem is not really technology right it's, it's putting it yet going back to your diagram that like, even system design stage, and making sure that, well, yes, there's there's a problem we can consume in the service, great tooling, but making sure you can hand hold the project maintainers and make it and even do it for them just like do that augmentation for them. So that it's not additional overhead where they don't understand the implications of well how's this going to change our build pipeline how's this going to change the threat model of our project like this is going to uncover stuff that we're ready to tackle at this point, etc etc. Yeah, that's a good point. I really, I really like that. Yeah. That's one. Yeah, I was thinking about fuzzing as well. I was thinking about, you know, the kind of like domain knowledge that you would need to know to implement the fuzzer. Yeah, that's your application but like, if it's a service based model. Yeah, it could be. Even if like just open source tooling right doesn't have to be as tough as we could just like oh we do a security process for you go write a CD pipeline for you or something like that. Like, even take like running the web infrastructure for web pages of the projects. Maintainers are not doing that and there's been like some shuffling on the CNC upside for the people that have put up Netlify and do the load balancing and do cloud flare for this project has moved on and now like maintainers are scrambling because they haven't dealt with this stuff before. Hmm. I love to hear those use cases on the deployment side, and maybe that's something that we, you know, we just iterate on this. So I just wanted to kick it off. It seems like there's some things I don't have answers on like where we go to put those in there. I'll take my lead from you guys because I think it's whatever is the least friction for you that gives lowest friction and highest fidelity. It would be good to talk to a few different projects and interview them understand their paints, because I'm speaking strictly from the experience of spire but mileage varies right. Okay, cool. Well, the, that's it for me. Maybe what we do is I kind of jumped to another meeting, but I think we framed it. And then let's see what may happens the next week or two on thoughts that we come up. We can we also have the slack in terms of what you guys want to do in terms of the repo location like where the discussion and, and the things go and I think that seems like a good starting point that sound good. Yep. Thanks so much to him. Thanks you guys. All right. Okay. Yeah. And also I think I will open up an issue for the point that Emily brought up, which is like kind of looking at gaps right already did it. It's posted in the chat. Great. Great. Awesome. So, I think that right, and then let me let me open this, I'll open the issue for Tim as well so that we can at least get the track going for this. And next on the agenda item is you Emily so Yes. All right, let me go up and figure out what I'm talking about meeting summaries first and foremost. So, for those of you that probably already know and those of you that don't six security is considered a global group. We have a community spanning multiple time zones. And, and as a result of that expansion and community interest we do have an APAC region being that occurs where they have lots of conversations they are active community members and they are engaged in these discussions. So, my effort to ensure that the work that they're doing as part of the SIG is included in our discussions. I have made an adjustment to the meeting template to include a review as part of the attendance of the notes that came from the last meeting. And then we reflected both for the APAC region as well as this region. So at the start of our meetings, we should or the facilitator should go through and do a quick summary of what was discussed at the other regions meeting, and then a pack would do the same. This is in an effort to be a lot more inclusive about our globally diverse community. So that's the first item. And then the second one is inclusion language changes. This is issue number 478 it was originally brought up by Andres, and I wanted to bring this back to the community is something that I think we can actually get taken care of. So this is regarding the use of non inclusive terms within our repository, we do have a few of them to include the branching schema by which we employ within the SIG. So what this is is it would entail somebody going through probably grabbing files, doing changes to some of the terminology, as well as a decision point in which we switch over from the master branch over to the main. This is especially important because the talk has already made this change. And initially we held off on it because we were concerned about breaking all of our links. So this is, well it may seem like a small change. I understand that it's a big ask by the community to take care of this. Awesome. And I think that also I was just looking at the issue that the link and, and, you know, this is a whole discussion thread on tooling that can help us this as well. This is a great issue for somebody that wants to have a positive long lasting impact on the SIG and how we move forward and kind of these engagements, as well as you will be exposed to pretty much every part of the repo and you will learn a lot in the process. And I would say, I would say like, don't feel like you have to do like gigantic PR and do everything at once. If you can identify, okay, you know, I'll do the changes within this single document within the set of files. Feel free to just go ahead and create a PR. Or start small and as you as you do a PR refer back to the issue do a couple of them at a time and we can save the major branch change at the end. In terms of the inclusive naming I mean it was in the New York Times recently in terms of like the crew that put that all together and stuff like that I think it's an amazing initiative for all of us here so kind of like putting my two cents in here, even though it's unsolicited but it's it's a really amazing initiative they've done a bunch of projects so I think it would be awesome and whatever I can do to contribute I'm going to do here. Okay. So the issue is in the document, I'm going to paste it in the chat as well. Cool. And we have our last agenda item for today, which is project criteria for listing projects and the colleagues security map. Diego. Yeah. Yeah, I said, see a second. See if I can share. No, I cannot share. No, anyway, permissions thing. Okay, so the thing is that I think most of you know that we have been working for a while in the cloud native security map. I'm going to put in the chat the link of the show. And apart from that we've been working on the web version so that people can see what are the recommendations what are the different areas related to the security white paper and how people can see the projects that can help them examples and descriptions and having more information. But now that we have we're close to complete the all the areas of the documents and there have been some questions like we are having a lot of contributors and some of the projects that can be included might not be potentially stable enough mature enough or with the right quality. So we started thinking what will be the right pattern conditions so how people can trust that the information that we show is going to be useful because we don't want to confuse people and say like Oh, use this open source project that was built five years ago, and nobody did the committee in four years. So because that will reduce the confidence of the audience. So a minimum criteria that we are starting to write down is things that we consider that can be useful to filter a few of those projects. And that's why we wanted to present to you the what are the options if you agree, we're trying to see what will be a similar criteria for example for sandbox projects in the CNCF. But then the process needs to be quite clear at the beginning rather than going through a review pool. We will like that people know in advance, how they can propose a project so things like the criteria will be something like the project has more than one contributor. And the project has more than six months of lifetime. There are regular releases and their active committees in the in the last six months. And it's a priority if it can be a CNCF projects or Linux Foundation relationship so that this is a discussion from the rest of the group of what is appropriate. Any other suggestion, what is important, but the goal is to always provide good quality projects so that people trust this resource. Any questions. Do you have a list that you can maybe share on the screen. I don't have a link right now, but I will say I'll put something like this in the chat. It's part of the essential elements but and that's why we wanted to bring it forward if somebody has some objection suggestions or indications of a good reference of starting filtering projects. Otherwise, we will just move forward with a few more detail descriptions in when the contributors wants to add some projects and that will be the reference. So, so part of this is kind of I think we were discussing this as well as we hope to not get too many angry messages from people to be like, why wasn't my project, not why isn't it in this list or why is it like, you know, this guy's project in but not mine. And I think the idea is to make it as objective as possible and to have a criteria that I think covers all the basis that that people should have about I think we haven't really decided on exactly what the we have this Scott criteria but I think like maybe that is also consideration to like the wait for it. Maybe, you know, having more than one contributor is going to be at least a minimum requirement. And then, you know, being CNCF other not the same project is like, nice to have these additional points but it's not, it's not a requirement to be in this. What when you say more than one contributor shouldn't that be like meeting certain boss factor. When you said when you said having more than one contributor you mean total one contributor to the project or one contributor from here. Um, total more than one I think. Right, Diego. Yeah. Yeah, we might want to raise that you know what like best practices patch or sandbox innovation criteria we really seek that. And the, the bus factor is this formula if the whole project works take a field trip and they're involved in an accident.  It's the not necessarily the vendor independence portion of a given project but more about the project continuity success. But that's, I believe the right way to say that if somebody inadvertently becomes unavailable will they still be successful. The nicer version of that is the lottery factor to pretend the project person won the lottery.  Yeah. So we are looking forward. And we didn't we all win the lottery being part of this group with Andres and Diego, then we all in a lot. Yeah, it's just it's just to make it more clear because as Brandon said like we we think that people say oh why my weekend project is not included there because I think it's really nice and help people. Rather than having just a long conversation with some people just like we think it's not aligned with these specific criteria. I think walking that line between allowing users to be more informed versus actually providing a grade is very tricky. I think that a lot of it has to do with how we present or how we label some of that. So if the intent is to allow a user to make a more informed decision about this being 100% transparent and kind of the things that we would be concerned with where we evaluating the project. I think I think is very important. As far as more than one contributor, I would ask I would make the recommendation that it should be more than to burst off. Because they could, you can have two people and they could be doing awesome and amazing work, but they can also just go to the same company together abandon the project together or leave that one person overwhelmed with the massive amount of things. To that end, I think that we should be very clear and upfront about like what what kind of those expectations are and incite that principle that Rory eloquently stated for us a lot everyone as the kind of the reasoning for why we're looking at that particularly. That's good. Yeah, we will just say I'm just putting this for debate to make a richer decision. Another thing that we will also I think thinking about is, you know, whether can we kind of make whether we should just either make it or you don't and you're on the list or not. We have like multiple categories of projects. Like, you know, obviously a project with like 12,000 stars CNC a graduated project, and then you know project from from that's much smaller right then like it's there. Do you want to make the distinction between those two things and then that also becomes a trick exercise. Is there anything in the criteria about some sort of proxy for measuring how widely a product has been adopted or how widely a project is being used. I think I recall in the CNTF broad based landscape. There's something about you know, open source projects with 300 or more stars which I assume is sort of being as a proxy for you've got 300 or more stars there's at least a few people using your project. Do we have anything like that under consideration in these criteria. Yeah, I think that we, we talked about that, but there's always some time sets them. Yeah, it's to put a limit and a number that we consider appropriate, because why, why 300 and not 500 or 200. The other problem with the specific GitHub stars is that quickly becomes a popularity contest. And we would like to avoid that at all costs. So it's a good idea. And if we figure out a way to do a somewhat accurate measurement about the use of a project across industry. That would go a long way to helping them in seeking incubation and graduation criteria, because that highlights project maturity. So I think that was more about we're looking for is like what is the project maturity. How, how do we quantify that as something, and maybe, maybe that's not necessarily a fixing a numerical value for assignment but showcasing where that falls on that chasm chart is it early early adopters it innovation is it like, where is it out on that curve. Any source reliable source to identify the usage by other parties that you would recommend anyone. I honestly can't think of anything like if GitHub had that content for how often a project was clones on a recurring basis from a centralized or singular IP address. That would be a privacy violation. But that would be like, you think so. No, that's right. But you said, I think they do that. Where it's container images that Docker hub not I know have that because just in Cormac talking about it today on. But, but yeah, I don't think for where it's not a Docker image. Yeah, I'm also worried like a lot of this information is a necessity public and I feel like it's also gonna take a lot of effort for us to go to every single individual for checking out for it. I think like a CNCF. This one I just put in channel Brendan is one that's fairly good at a high level it's not going to go in depth right in terms of just understanding contributors contributions commits for positive or is that that the thing. I just found out about this like two weeks ago and you know like, it's pretty incredible like you can kind of see an overview of each one of the underlying projects. I don't know how many lines of codes are there but like again it doesn't stick to a specific criteria but I would assume that the upper like line of these of okay X amount of lines of code X amount of contributors would would be something that would be something that precludes them or adds them to whatever thing we have here. And again I think this is beta, but it's been super useful and some of the recent pursuits I'm in. Well, that's cool they have you update that all the information you're just talking about. I think that might be a good source to look at.  It's not an appeal. That's just that. Sorry. Good. I would say your biggest contribution this this meeting is secure Batman. The next project. You know, an often overlooked file but a great indicator of the product health is the adopters file, if there are public adopters. It's one to look at and encouraging people to do that. Yes, for security projects there's a lot of organizations that won't publicly state this is what we do, but while there's, there's other signs of evidence whether the product is as well adopted or not, versus a developer spawn up 200,000 bottles to go do a kid clone from this thing. So a lot of certain metrics depending how you measure them can be not very meaningful and just a ton of noise because maybe someone clone this thing once but they rolled it out as massive production as someone has a big lab and they've been pulling this over and over and over again. I think that's what's all these things make it a little bit difficult to make a clear cut quickly. I would add on to that. That's actually a good suggestion. Andres it triggered something else for me. If we have the ability to determine whether or not there is a security file on the repo. So there is a security tab in GitHub now that talks about whether or not there is a security policy or security advisories. And one of the things that we talked about in the security review process was being able to assist projects and creating their security file within the repository. And making sure it's discoverable because it might accept acts and a contributing file or in the main cadence file. Yeah, I see this now. And another like a lot a lot of CNCF projects have dedicated community managers and these community managers from surveys at certain cadence and often they're like net promoters core questions in there. So if you recommend the product to others. Are you actively panning on implementing this product we should. And we should try to encourage people to put those things on on the repositories to have it readily discoverable and we don't have to chase community managers. Okay, I think that's it. I think we will write them all these details and propose a final version of all the properties that we think are important. Awesome. Thanks to you. Cool. Cool. Any other topics that people want to bring up. And the other things that people want to maybe suggest for next week's meeting. And next week is next week we do not have. May 5, there is no meeting because you can you're up. So hopefully everybody can attend and show up and have a lot of fun. And I expect to see every single one of you at cloud native security day and I will be personally upset if you don't make it. I will cry. Andres will hear about it. Yeah, as most people here are going to be sleeping during the event. Well, at least half of the event, you know, Awesome. You can all just come to the proper types of summer time for a week. We're all moving in or you have a spare 10, 20 bedrooms. So I've got like a couple of acres. I live in the middle of nowhere. I was going to say, he will offer hiking tours for all of us. Are you saying that aqua is sponsoring us? Oh, no, no. I got trouble with that one. Awesome. Thanks everyone. And it shouldn't be long after that that we regroup to start talking about North America. So, yeah, that's right. So if you're interested in North America, keep that in your back pocket and stock the issues while you're going through and trying to close some of them out because you're awesome and you like to contribute. On to ships. From Aqua. Ravi are going to get a lot of emails soon. Oh man, that's, that's what actually I don't say. For all the money. All right, thanks everyone.