He's he's the I have watched these mailing list discussions. Yeah, tell me don't tell me it's Johan. Don't tell me it's Johan. I Can't remember it. I can't remember his name But yo yo yo ch something a n something Wait, wait, wait, no, let's see I mean, I don't know his name, but I'm pretty sure it's not Johan Oh, we went live we went live Yeah, we just went live it is John Alexander Stephens Well, you guys want to know that that's fine Well, we're sitting here. We're talking about other things right now. We guess we're busy You guys are having a conversation.  Oh, yeah I mean, we could have been you know, unknowingly or at the very least not wanting to we could have been spelling secret information for all you know I mean like like there's there's a difference between having a friendly conversation between friends about you know potentially not so nice guys and then you know doing it publicly like ones ones definitely okay one Yeah, well anyways guys, I'm officially kicking Matt out of the podcast by the way guys This is the Linux cast where we're just a bunch of nerds here and I'm Josh You literally have no power to kick me out of my own pocket Well, I'll happily take the day off Tyler just gonna have to start streaming on his channel if he remembers how to log in He's on a hiatus again too much too much zero 80 he could be streaming that stuff and everybody be happy about it He could be The problem is is I could definitely stream it But there's gonna be there's gonna be like a very small group of people like 40 people at the most who are Super stoked about it and who are gonna watch like a lot of it And then all the rest of the people are gonna be like dude Could you like do anything else other than play zero 80 because I looked at your channel and there's 19 live streams Going on for like at least five hours each Like could you okay?  It was it was terrible, but at the same time surprisingly enough It didn't really get boring until the last like what for our mark Like up until then like it was actually pretty exciting when you know, there was more than just the two of us. Yeah Steve won't be joining us. He's gonna be playing whatever that is See he's got to come in low key with the Diablo plug, you know, just being like hey He's gotta be he's gotta be in the meantime in the meantime guys. I'm the only one here Still with the crunch bang system. That's not true I Can show you right now there we go I Can't see because I don't can't see your camera. I'm putting I'm putting a live on stream, dude Did the live streams pretty far behind I see it even though it says Even though it says Debbie and because apparently changing the name that it's just much Well, here's the thing about that. Here's the thing about downstream Debbie and forks The only way you can actually just that is to actually change the Slash Etsy OS release file which apt will actually override for you every time you're running run an upgrade. Yep. I know Anyways, yes, I still have the system I've been playing around with it for a whole week just like I said what like I was told is it is it powering the stream Or is it an virtual machine? It's an a virtual machine I don't it doesn't count it does it does to count the challenge was to install it It didn't it was never said that had to be installed on hardware Well, you definitely didn't make a video about it. That's true. I did ignore that but technically this is on my channel This is me making a video about it else I made the first video People in the chat Have fun with these guys. They install something kitchen gum bum bum bum bum Linux. I'll be playing Diablo 4 Wait a second Wait a second somebody here in the chat. Let's see. Oh, I don't have them still. Okay What are you doing?  Oh, yeah, yeah, let's see here Let's see here. I can't remember what all repositories. I want to be doing but if we switch bullseye To book worm is it with an O or a U for worm? It's an O. It's an it's an O. What universe is it that I use? That's how you spell Matt Matt Sorry, you live in Michigan. I live in Ohio. I make up my own version of me I'm pretty sure that even in Ohio they spell it with an O It's like their favorite letter OSU, you know I've been able to Oh, hey, and they have some interesting ways of saying and spelling things also Ohio is one of those places where it's not technically the self but yet they still say y'all and It is definitely a not just a word but part of the vocabulary and the definitely the dictionary as well So, yes, somebody said that I was an open box noob. I'm not in fact an open box noob I use open box for a good portion of time a couple years ago Okay, guys. Oh much is good. I see 1596 package updates go ahead and do it dude Risk it for the biscuit, bro. No, what you guys didn't know is that Ohio actually starts with a you There we go system is updating now we'll find out if this thing reboots Gaming Steve why'd you even bother showing up man? You should just go play some Diablo man I just want to be part of your pocket. I got a thing We're obviously taking over your play your play time If he's going to pull out his thing I'm if he's going to pull out his steam deck, I'm gonna pull out its competitor Oh To be honest, I never I'm talking to you guys and I'm playing see without looking If there's one thing you chat will agree with me on it's that we now just Absolutely much shame Josh for the rest of the podcast Like look sure the switch is a great product, but you just brought it up next to us. Okay.  I I pirate my the games that I actually own and I rip them and then I play them through an emulator and The reason why I've publicly announcing this is because it's Matt's channel and I want him to get the DMCA I don't think anyone's gonna DMCA except for your channel, man.  They're gonna be like one guy one guy is ripping our stuff One we're gonna tell you tell you what tell you what they're they're gonna take me to court They're gonna make me pay 14 million dollars in fines and wish I will never be able to pay that off in my lifetime What's so ever unless you wish Nintendo would take you to court, dude They're just gonna bench you over their knee and give you your bottom of good spanking, dude That's what I'm gonna pull up some good old US copyright law and then fresh out of 1993 Yeah, VCRs No, dude, you're just about to have a massive corporation binge you over in spanking It hasn't crashed it hasn't crashed the X session yet, so I'm already doing better than DT I'm doing goal.  We're actually installing the updates now Unpacking it it you saw me you saw after the responsible thing and asked me to do if it's allowed to do things That's gross.  Hold on a second. What yeah, and then you not understand that I was telling you how to do that Tyler what are you on? Take a guess. Are you on Windows again? No, no gentoo. It starts eight ends with a oh, that's it guys Officially gentoo video out of all of us. He's the one that's on gentoo That's funny. I'm running a purely hyperland Wayland like pipe wire Beautiful gentoo butter FS installation. Okay, so we don't Steve's using Zero linux Josh, what's your what's your main one right now? If you if you need to know I am doing my I'm doing a personal challenge for myself I am doing no terminal fedora silver blue Okay, what are you actually on then Steve if you're not using your own distro Oh, no, it's not even listening Anyways, he's on steam OS. I'm an open Suze at tumbleweed By the way Matt by the way Matt Steve's name might be a Steve's camera might be placed a little bit too low It's covering part of his name. I'm sure it is I I'm not using zero Linux. Who said what are you using? Debian Wait, what? Yeah, he Steve Steve's a Debian boy now. Yeah, zero Linux is getting rebased to Debian gnome Yeah, we're gonna spank his bottom too. Is that actually true? Rolling right now, right? No, it's actually true. It's actually happening He's going Debian. He's like I like it. I mean, I don't know why it's stable. I'm being trolled. It's stable Someone in chat said Tyler's ginti sounds buggy. It's not it's not buggy, man It's not buggy. No call. I can't believe as you installed gentoo and didn't stream it Well, okay You guys want to know why I tend to stream every single one of my gentoo installs so you can get 12 different ways of doing things recommendation recommended in the chat actually, no Do the only reason why why I stream it is because if I stream my gentoo installation I'm more committed to actually finishing that installation Sometimes sometimes it's like I just feel like doing something productive. So I'll just reboot I'll just blow it blow that install away and go into something else They did it again in game transactions That's why I'm not playing it It's Activision Blizzard. Of course that they've been doing that for ages in all their games. Yeah Heart hearthstone is like the worst Like that thing used used to be free to play it technically still is but it's it's not it's not They really send me a new card. You can't keep up Once you are big and a hearse own man. Yeah, I still play it from time to time.  It's so it's so bad So I can't even play in the standard ladder anymore I have to play in any of the challenges where they actually give you the cards To play it and so I can't craft my own deck now What you need to do is you just need to play 20 hours of hearthstone every single day and that's how you get caught back up Oh, you see that you can't because you can only earn so much gold every day. You can only earn a set limit of gold Well, never mind Because people were doing that they're playing a whole bunch and get not all the golden I used to I used to play hearts hearthstone like for hours and hours and hours every day I Got bored because it became so repetitive You really I'm done with that. You've got to be a really big seat trading card game Well, I got introduced to trading card games in hearthstone basically. Yeah, that was my first one, too I never played magic. All right guys. We should get going get started. Everybody have their recording apparatus Ready to go I have I have the world's greatest sound recording application pulled up right now It is literally called sound recorder and as a project name The last time you use that I'm pretty sure it failed Yes, an audio will forever be a stable of zero Linux why because it works and you're the one who told It's Actually works like I'm using right now and I'm gonna press this button and I'll bet you I'll bet you $15 it does not pick up the right device All right, so this is it testing Let me stop tap it. You should tap your mic. That's what you really know Yeah, dude, they actually pick up the right mic. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on So it was all $15 Let's not give it too much credit like I actually know my split, you know my solution Tyler What's your solution? I write my own custom pipe wire plumber configuration that automatically Illumines all other input devices except for the one and it's written in a text box indexed every time wire plumber starts So therefore the system will only ever see one input device and that's the one that audacity will pick Aka scratch scratch your nose with your left foot. Yes Look at this thing. This is just a thing of beauty. Look at that. It is so simplistic. I got to start a stop button It's also already recording. I haven't said this record yet I'm already recording. Okay, so I can I can stop it. Yeah And then we just blow it away just like that Things works like look, all right, here's the thing me Matt and Steve must come together on this See you've continuously done this where you will start recording before it starts I think we must come together and purchase a cattle prod Take care of this. I I think poor Josh. She needs a little bit of discipline And some herding away from that their record button I just when he assumes that when I say do you have your recording apparatus? Oh, hang on guys Hang on guys at this prompting me with something here Crypt set up a net ram FS config hook modified by either me or script since this installation distributor has shipped an updated version Do I want to install the package maintainers version and potentially break my system or do I want to keep my currently installed version and Hope and pray that it's backwards compatible or forwards compatible. I mean, can you do both? I can show the differences Just take the default brother just take the default. Oh, yeah, just take the default. Okay. Okay You're a brave one check on that. Yeah, just wanted to get just wanted to get you guys's opinions. Where'd Steve go? They weren't I supposed to be starting the podcast or anything. All right guys, we're gonna start without him Just Steve Hey hip dad hip dad Where are you going there? I finally got Wayfire to actually function and I'm working a fake I'm figuring out how I want to have it configured, but there I am working on a video for Wayfire There's no way this podcast does not go completely off the rails. I'm just oh, it's going all judging by the pre-show We haven't even started yet. We can't we can't it's going off the rails It's going the chest has been washing me upgrade the bookworm. All right. We're gonna get started Okay, go ahead and hit your record button in audacity or whatever you're using. I'm gonna hit record in OBS Tyler you can do this claps because last week we completely forgot to do the claps. We didn't even do them He's not ready. He's got a plug in steamedick and so he can keep playing It's true All right, all right a three a two and then one That wasn't even close, but it's all right. It was terrible It looked It was bad I'm pretty sure you went first which would would be the way it should go and then Josh was like five minutes later, but it's okay We're just gonna blame the latency it has to be the latency first all disclaimers any you're not allowed to look at chat Okay, that's good. Why it's fine Because so many might be in a certain games lobby right now. Oh Gonna get tempted by zero 80 Okay, okay guys, okay guys You're gonna reboot There goes there goes wait, why do you have to do the system CTL reboot isn't it not Because reboot and crunch bang isn't Simulink to the proper thing either is power off by the way I mean, I just I just don't even assume that they set the same links, right? So I just tell system D to handle it. It's amazing. How many distributions don't actually do the Simulink for it You guys notice that Steve's not listening to us. He's actually got music on right now.   I don't know Exactly what he's listening to You look at him, he's a swiftie, you know, he's a swiftie All right, so Josh is in on bookworm. I want bookworm, but I saw it's not up yet Not yet, but soon. I have bookworm It you must have RC for because the eyes are 11 Because only 11.7 is a stable currently on sub-website. Yeah, I couldn't get Bookworm to install on this computer. So I want bookworm Okay, I want bookworm That's great, all right Okay, so let's go I guess start guys me then Josh then Tyler then Steve. Okay. I'm second boys Just I just went around in the circle. Sorry That's it. All right. Hey everybody. Welcome to the next cast. I'm your host Matt and I'm Josh We do prepare for these things Steve's obsessed man. He's got an obsession. It's Diablo for he's not even here. He's listening to the soundtrack He's got Diablo on a steam deck next to him. He's not gonna be very present Physically, I mean mentally he's literally in Diablo Diablo is here Hey guys, I'm Steve. I've got the dog barking outside. All right, so if you guys are have Any clue what this is this is the Linux cast is going to be the most On-point Linux cast ever I'm sure For those of you who are listening to the audio, it's gonna be an entertaining show for you I'm sure but you know, we're gonna we're gonna do something new that we haven't done before so When it was just Tyler and I way back when we did a challenge called the bash challenge and it was fun That was when terminal for life was still around and we knew he was going to review it afterwards And they just made it even more fun So that was but that that was has to have been at least two years ago We finally decided to do another challenge and it was Tyler's turn to pick the challenge So the challenge was to use crunch bang plus plus for a week and the There was an addition on there a proviso that we had to make a video about it now Josh made a video about it I'm making this video about us. So if you ain't cheating, I made the first video You waited for a live stream. So therefore I think I win the challenge by default. There was no Who said there was gonna be any winners? Well, I think there's three winners on here to Steve's just the loser He hates when no managers with it with a passion, but we'll talk about that anyways Speaking you two are the only ones that I mean, I never specifically stated a video I just said you had to make I actually know I did say you had to make a video about it Yeah, you did make the argument that a live stream is video. So yeah You're doing it. So you two you two are the ones who have done the challenge to completion However, I Shielded out and made a ton of people on my discord. I forced like 12 people into running crunch bang. So Just on sheer starting of virus, I think I win I think I infected more All right, so let's first talk about what crunch bang is so it is a Nostalgia distro is what it is and it runs open box. It's based on Debian and it is I'm hearing echoes all over the place by the way. I don't know That's what I've been pointing at for the past five minutes. Mr. Tyler has Audio bleeding into his mic. It's fixed the web RTC shouldn't be doing it, but Maybe if you run gentoo.  We have wireless headphones. So what's what's the Anyway, hang on, let me let me browse Zaini's Amazon wishlist. Let's see. Do I still have a bookmarked? Yes I don't think I have any my in my wishlist though. You probably don't Need to add that It's not even five minutes people people.  There are no losers. It's just There's winners and there's Steve Sorry, there's Steve. Yeah, sorry Wait, just a second. Wait just a second Zaini. Yeah, is your wishlist no longer in your YouTube description? Yeah, I took it out because I haven't been using it Well, because most of the stuff on his wishlist was still from when he was gonna go live in Arizona in the woods or something Oh, I still am gonna go do that Okay, I pulled up and all the I found it there are no headphones on your wishlist, so I can't buy any headphones. Sorry All good. It's all good. I'll put some airpods Anyways We've reviewed crunch bang plus plus this week guys and we're gonna talk about it a little bit We have some thoughts on this. I'm sure I want to go first because there's some things that I just want to say about it so first of all if you've never used open box before open box requires a little bit of Mental gymnastics to get around what it is because especially if you're coming from a tiling window manager because it's technically a window manager But it's not a tiling window manager Steve stop making fun of me So I got dogs barking outside, so I'm gonna go shut some I'm gonna go shut a window in a door and see if that quite Okay Anyway, so open box is a floating window manager and it is configured in a very special language called XML And if you've never used XML think HTML, but more special, you know It's basically what it is and the idea here and I'm gonna show this actually on camera is that you can You know, it's it's a floating window managers. It's like you would see like in a Kitty or aganoma or whatever the windows float by default and it has a menu system so it's much more in line with people who are more mouse focused and It is just very well done overall as a window manager, right if you're not a tiling window manager person But you don't want to use full desktop environment open box is one of the best solutions I've always thought but it is it takes some It takes some Getting around to the configuration focus configuration file is very special, but in terms of crunch bang plus plus for me Here's what I wanted to say The default key bindings are Not good. They're just they're they're not good Maybe I'm just too used to my own ways, but whoever did that. I'm not sure if the You guys remember open box has been around for longer than I have been so it's possible that these are like the default I saw you type that V by the way. Yeah, I'm dude a month later. I'm still doing it Anyways, I guarantee the first thing I'm gonna type in here is J I'll forget and do J. I was guaranteed But anyways, the this is the configuration file that you're seeing on screen But the the default key bindings whoever coded them whoever put them in they're obsessed with the function keys Like obsessed with the function keys like like I've never used the function keys more than I have during this challenge like in order to change between Screens or desktops they come desktops and in in open box you use Super and then the function keys and I was like that's that just feels weird to me because I'm so used to super in the number keys So that's my biggest takeaway from from is that I had to go through and change all of the key the key bindings but anyways Josh you actually probably spent the most time on hardware with crunch bake plus plus. Why don't you tell us your thoughts? So Let's pull up I've got crunch being set up right here on my laptop, which uh Is an old think pad because you know if we're going to install Debian It's got to be on an old think pad system now As somebody that's been using Linux for probably longer than anybody else here This is how how everybody would configure open box back pre-2010 like this this is like old-school open box like I I Super T for for a terminal that actually used to that used to be a thing before before like Ubuntu implemented the control T as the default default key binding super T actually used to be the default Terminal key binding for Ubuntu. What does Ubuntu use for control super T now? I don't think it's bound to anything anything. Well, then why they change it. That's done. All right. Sorry. Yeah, but anyways and you know it I think if If you're like some if you've used open box like forever ago You you might find something familiar with this but like Obviously like I I didn't really do much of anything to the distro and I've been able to like work with it perfectly fine It's just that this is not how I would use the open box today and But other than that, I think it's perfectly fine. I actually don't think that the setup of it is that bad I Like that. I like where the 10 tooth panel is I probably do some modifications of that to make the desktop Implementation is not so wide to take up the whole spot space. Yeah, and then I changed the key bindings But other than that, it's fine. Obviously I changed the the GTK themes now The is this still GTK to is open box still GTK to Open box is not actually natively used the GTK toolkit tend to however, however, it does What are the open boxes? Open box uses the extended framework, which is what X FCE used to be based on before they rebased the GTK This is even older. Yeah, it's even older Yeah, and and because open box is open box Open box is the last remaining window manager or the environment that still uses the extended framework of Which and they were the last ones using it six years after it got deprecated Okay, the reason why I ask is because they use the X FCE Customized looking fuel panel. Yeah, they have the they have the X FCE stack That's what primarily will open box is using like I open up my final manager. That's to an R Well, the only thing that's not X FCE is a terminal Which I found out after some some work or after after some work I've determined that this is terminator which is not Which by the way if you're a window manager enthusiast from like 10 years ago This terminal was the shit a lot of you aren't using your X VT You were using terminator a lot of people use terminator Yeah, because it has a lot of features or at least it it did. I'm not sure obviously I'm using ages big buck Because you can split it you can split it horizontally I think it has some T-Mux features, too Yeah, it does it in areas with T-Mux quite nicely for for a terminal Which now a whole lot of terminals actually integrate with T-Mux T-Mux the way that the you you At a T-Mux power user would actually use it Which for the most part what a lot of people do do is like they're a super heavy T-Mux user They'll install like a minimal terminal such as a lack or do with like basically next to nothing in the big But term terminator actually does have some default integrations with T-Mux if you were to actually install T-Mux that's it That's it crunch bang does not ship T-Mux. It ships good news screen Which doesn't surprise me actually at all. I'm actually surprised at how I mean My biggest takeaway from this guys is that it's just basically Debian I mean, there's not they didn't do a lot of changing here.  So Debian is actually gonna be what also depends on how much you're willing to buy into like the Debbie just like how much you're willing to commit to actually running Debian stable because Buster was perfectly fine for like the entire duration of its run and then Well as a bull bull's eye was perfectly fine for like the duration of its run The only difference between Buster and bull's eye is that at the end of bull's eye is life The version of flat pack that they ship it in Debian was so old that it couldn't that it could not run any modern flat packs That's the only issue this time around That said Hardware support just because yeah towards the end of its life It's so it's so out of date the most hardware you're having to pull from back ports No, yeah, so the biggest the biggest problem with Debian of course is finding the proper ISO Okay remains the biggest problem with With Debian so okay challenge accepted. We're gonna see if I can find an ISO for Debian He's gonna go to the front page and hit the download button and just prove that there's an ISO That's not at all what I meant. Okay. I mean it's right there No, okay first of all this one over here They highlight the wrong thing the depth the link for the debit the ISO is actually above the highlight So you look at the highlight first and by that time you're at this one, right? You've already passed the link to the ISO the link the ISO is right above that Okay, but also that's not as of right now not the non-free which is that which everybody actually needs, okay? Okay, so you're talking about this one right here amd64 I would like an ISO so I don't want to pull a bdcd or dvd I think the dvd will be fine scroll down to the bottom all look it's right there Download is it buried all the way down there? Yeah, it's it's definitely a lot of clicks definitely a lot of clicks Also guys been using Debian for 20 years and he knows how to get to the ISO. Congratulations, bro You know, okay, if a new user was trying to do that No The download button for sure the non-free should be pretty easy Like if you're just gonna assume most people are gonna have an amd64 and give them a direct click to it Why not also give them a just a direct click to the non-free ISO amd64? Not that hard play. Well, okay, so the good news is that they are changing once the actually Should be today. Honestly Supposedly already has well, obviously they haven't changed the only thing is that Debian is a little it is a little slow to update the website that the ISO is available However, if you start looking through like the repositories you can find a Debian 12 ISO Well, okay. Yeah, and I know that what I'm saying is that they're changing the website So that that download button actually links to and they're including the non-free stuff in the ISO now So that's the way the way the way it works is it will not enable the non The non-free unless it detects you need them honest Well, that's I mean, and that's fine. That's that's perfectly, okay Really the whole point I'm I was I always made when it comes to the non-free stuff for for Debian Is it just needs to work in the live environment or work through the installer? You know, I mean just that's literally all that needs to do so that you can't If your installer won't launch because it doesn't have the proper drivers Then it's not a proper installer and the thing about Debian always has been is that there are always things It is very hard to find anybody who's running hardware that is completely compatible with all non-free drivers and You know forget it forget about GPUs just the Wi-Fi cards in most laptops will not run with non-free drivers It's just the way it works, you know even modern CPUs This chip I'm holding my hand right here might be the Wi-Fi card that I had to pull out of the thing If I had to get this this should actually have working Wi-Fi support. See exactly what I'm talking about And that's not that guys that's I mean that's that is the Linux problem, right? That has been a Linux problem since 1991 okay, it's just the bend the way thing and then Debian is a lot of times It's not even a Linux problem, and it's an it's an even more upstream problem It's an upstream Libre problem. All right Anyways, we got distracted therefore again. Anyways the the crunch bang plus plus it's basically Debian and There's nothing wrong with it But if they've basically taken Debian put open box on it the weird weird thing I found was it some of the changes that they did make so they Did make some changes to the installer they changed they added the logo But left the Debian logo for some reason not sure why so they had both logos But also they removed there was a couple pages that they moved so like in the Debian installer There's a page to set the root password. There's not a page There's not a page in the crunch bang plus plus install it to set the root password It just takes you to the user creation page Not sure why they I mean that the page always does Confuse a lot of people because you're supposed to leave it blank if you want your user to have pseudo Privileges, so maybe that's the reason why they removed it But that's just one of the small changes that they did make They they did change the Like they added a grub wallpaper for crunch bang plus plus but left all the names as Debian So it looks like you're booting into Debian They've actually didn't and we know why they didn't change the neofetch because we just overwrite it And then they changed like the reason why Josh had a problem knowing that the terminal was terminators because when you do a neofetch It's called it like X emulator It it the configuration and terminator is set so that term terminator will identify as X term And that's purely for like SSH connections because SSH connections if it if if the server you're remoting into does not know what terminal it Does not know what your terminal is it will completely screw up things like h top Well, isn't it also for Some of the urx vt like compatibility like feature compatibility. So that that was something that terminator did not crunch bang plus plus I'm I'm positive. I'm positive. I've seen terminators say terminator and neofetch before by default though It's how it's it's how it's configured Uh, and it's again that that's how you're supposed to set up well, not necessarily a terminal, but anything that's going to be sshed into like that's how you should set it up Oh, yeah, it's it's literally just for compatibility Hmm So tyler your thoughts on this uh, I used it when like like I used crunch bang when there was no plus plus like the plus plus is like the follow-up keep the project alive um Like series like I used crunch bang back when it just was crunch bang and it was I've loved it because I I went from just straight ubuntu to crunch bang and Uh loved it like it was it was really nice. I didn't have a I never used like a Really hyper configurable like I guess like it's not really a desktop environment. It's just a preconfigured like a window manager with a whole bunch of tools, but I mean it is kind of a desktop environment So I'd never used anything that was that configurable before and I I really liked it Um, I used it for a long time and it was it was nice to be able to go back and use it again It was very nostalgic. Um I had a lot of hardware issues just because it's devian and devian does not like Super new hardware Um Also had some issues because you know scaling On high dvi screens is not a great idea with X in general so But I mean it worked and I enjoyed it Uh, I had a great time. I got a whole bunch of people on discord to use it to Most people said it was fine. They just it's not what they prefer which I mean makes sense because it is it is truly A look into the past of how like how a good open open box setup would have looked 10 years ago and I mean I mean that's basically what I said You can definitely use it today, but I I don't think it's what most people would want and also open box is not something that It's not something that I would recommend people to start trying to learn to configure because Pretty much nothing else is configured like open box No, I can't think of anything else that's configured in xml If you if you're wanting to run something like open box, there's actually another there's actually a couple other window majors That actually are configured in xml. Uh, a lot of them are not current. There's actually a wayland compiler that's configured in xml That's lab wc Uh, uh, there's also waybox, but that one's also a bit you guys ever get the feeling that josh just makes stuff up Because the rest of us don't know any better No, no, he would never do that, right? I truly believe he knows this stuff that the only sad part is is like It makes me question how much sleep I get like Like no Like I guess I guess I don't need Seven eight hours of sleep every once in a while. Okay Okay, so open box Black box which which yes, you can configure black box with xml Uh, let's see lab wc, which I mentioned and then there's another one from like way back in the day not flux box I'm thinking maybe when window maker Back when I actually use a config configuration file used xml I don't think it was that one, but I I I know dt check checked out in his series Like there was another one that did it With xml, but yeah, that's been a long time ago Yeah, I can't I can't remember all of them off the top of my head That's why I'm currently working through window manager project where by the end of that project We will have reviewed every single window manager that anybody can find if if you guys see a video on my channel That's titled the window manager manager project project, and you know the window manager I haven't covered yet put it in the comments of that video because what for one thing that's engagement gives me And that makes the youtube algorithm love me Hmm, which by the way, uh, hit subscribe and hit hit subscribe where you're here on this channel and on my channel Yeah, ignore the other guys. They don't count I'll be not hardly post so I don't Hold on a second here. Hold on a second here matt. I'm not sure the audience knows how to find us I don't know how to find us either. I'm not ready for the contact information yet It was a nice transition, but you got a war fella Oh, you're welcome Um, actually before we jump into the kind any idea any read so There's a couple things that I didn't like okay, I wanted to talk about these so first of all In your home directory inside crunch bang. They have some weird folders temp and ben are both Uh, not hidden folders here. They're they're plain sight. Also. They have ones called Back up and what will bother me most of this is that they didn't capitalize any of the words Yes, I'm just so I'm so used to seeing those all being capitalized also Um, if you were to use this and you had any like scripts or whatever that dealt with the pictures folder They don't call it pictures.  Um, no, I that can't that's not by the way a debbie in thing. Um Debian uses the proper xorg or xdg stuff. So xd xdg derz um, so I don't I don't really understand why they made those choices It's really those things. It's really I'm I'm sitting here staring at I'm like That's not okay proper Do you know why I'm sure stash is about to explain it to me. Yep Because this is how people used to set this stuff up 10 years ago Uh, that's really why well, that's idiotic. I was proud. Yeah Uh, basically what what what they what they did here is that is they actually changed all the variables Uh, as you might see here the wallpaper that is this gray screen that you're staring at Is actually a sim link is actually sim linked Uh, and then there are some templates in here for subscriptions and stuff like that Whatever, but anyways the reason why they're doing it like this is Is because this is how people 10 years ago You just to configure their home directory because you know, they didn't want to hit that capital letter when when they wanted to cd into something That's really it It's just it's driving my ocd nuts Well, thankfully thankfully you can change that or you can just run like xcd dg user derz Update just run that Uh, which by the way that obviously it didn't work this time around That was the most anti-climatic thing ever you're like and uh, yeah, whoops, uh, yeah, so Uh, by the way, if you guys are curious as to why my screen looks bad It's because uh matt is capturing my Is because i'm not using a screen share in discord. Uh, how matt captures, uh This window is he's is that we're in a four person panel and he and he just zooms in on it basically, yeah Yeah, because i'm not doing a screen share because i'm doing i'm Because i control discord using web sockets Also, you can i can use the web share anyways because i have all the transforms the way they're supposed to be so anyways So before we jump into uh, steve and talking a little bit about why he doesn't like window manager And the rest of us trying to convince him to try something that is good. Um, which we will do here in just a minute Let's talk about contact information if you want to get contact with us You can do so in any number of ways the best way is to head on over to the website Which is the linuxcast.org there you'll find previous episodes along with a whole bunch of blog posts and other stuff And uh, it's it's an awesome website if i do say so myself I put a lot of work into it. Actually, i didn't I didn't put any work into it at all Jay dogged into your website to my website jay dog did all the work. Okay. He's awesome. So Um, anyways, you head on over there. Check out check out the website where you'll find all that stuff You can follow steve.  Yeah, I think so zero linux zero linux The problem is he uses a different damn name on every single platform. It tries to be but And I can't remember you have so many names Anyways at zero linux with a x not a z You can also find all of his other stuff I'll give that link in a minute josh is at tenley j.com slash stalker tyler has a youtube channel. He doesn't know how to use it um YouTube.com slash zany o g is is his URL to go over there Subscribe to him the funniest thing the funniest story. I just want to tell this is that he got a shout out from mental outlaw About open bsd about a week after he stopped using open bsd Yeah, that one killed me That was just like it was the worst timing because I got hit with a wave of people like oh, dude I'm installing open bsd. I could use your help. So I'm like I don't actually use you a hacker and everything man Dude, like no, I got so many people asking me for help and i'm like, dude, I don't I mean I used it. It's good, but like i'm back to using linux now I mean Could it be worse? You could be root bsd who doesn't even post on youtube anymore Well, I mean, I've pretty much I pretty much gone the root bsd route. I don't see fairly far That's true Anyways, you can email us at email at the linux cast.org you can find all this contact information at the linux cast.org slash contact Where there you'll find links to all of our she is all of our stuff Uh, and it's all wonderful. You should click on all the links follow all of us. I'm I'm on maston. I'm on odyssey I got a I got a pier tube Instance that's not mine obviously that but I post most recent videos there TIL vids so you can if you want to want to deal with the youtube nonsense You can go to those places and subscribe Or you can just hit the subscribe button right here on youtube It's the big red Gigantic honking button right below all of our faces hit that subscribe button Hit the like button if you haven't already even though this is probably our worst podcast ever. I'm just pointing that What do you mean? It's our worst. It's the best I heard that the audience loves tangent cast. Well, we just had no plan for how we were going to do this We just jumped in Um, yeah, which is the most natural thing about it. I love it. Okay. I've been gone for a while I'm just excited to come in here and chill with the boys. You know All right good boys We're gonna hear now from steve the most anti window manager person on the planet So steve without a frilly accent, please Which you tell us why you don't like window manager. I I'm very interested First of all, I was very rude.  It is all okay It's all okay Maybe maybe what we hear normally is his accent. That's actually his real voice He's just true. That is true dude Has even sigh off fingers this entire time. It's entirely possible for all you know For all you know, he might just speak perfect serbian Oh my god, I was right I totally understood that man. I Totally got that. You don't know this all hand I'll do Come on now that famous hairdresser. Come on, man. Everyone else is Come on now Well, anyways, uh, steve complete control. Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm very choice words for uh, for this distro So let's hear him It is it is very nice He's very good And that's what you really think and don't lie to your friends. Give us your real opinion. You want the truce? Okay.  It was a good distro It's just I'm not comfortable with with window managers Did dig into it Did install it on I'm doing the josh thing right now Did install it on an ssd on bare metal Because I wanted to go all in not knowing it was a window manager Well, uh, the guys here told me crotch bag plus plus is good. You should try Yes Uh, uh, I uh booted it up the installer was your usual debian installer and like matt said kept they they had their logo and the debian logo confusion confusion confusion No root. No, whatever. I'm like it failed seven times to install Rob for some whatever reason because maybe there is windows on another drive Maybe uh, but When I when I finally got it to install I did select the xfs file system because fs me equal So Got to the desktop and I I got greeted with this Wonderful little terminal window. Do you want to install this? Do you want to install that? Do you want to install this? Do you want to install that? I reached a point where I started talking about server things. I was like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes Yes, yes.  Okay that the x that first of all that Welcome screen is not a Window manager thing. That's all I'm not saying it's a window manager thing. There are desktop environments with that a k a garuda but with gui's rather than a terminal but The the thing of it is I loved its simplicity and how Quick it was it was flying. It was like I installed windows 98 on modern hardware Okay, wait, hold on hold you do have to give it even more credit for it being fast because This man installed the Apache web server and all the stuff He's got lamp going on in the background It is nice that it allows you to install a lamp stack for whatever reason you would have for a lamp stack on your desktop system Yeah, don't know what lamp stack is. Don't know what Apache is. I don't know Indians to make a stop Apache Indians boo boo boo boo Okay, let's see. We're so getting canceled by the way. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. We've got apache male server php I forget what else stands for There is no there is only male server no female server Dude, I know it's kind of messed up like that. I agree. I don't mean the package called woman Okay, good I was I was talking to josh and I was like, how do you do this? How do you do that? How do you do this? How do you do that? I was looking for Literally, I didn't know it was a window manager. I was going into it expecting it to be a desktop environment of some sort I started looking for an app menu I started looking for Latidoc like doc I started looking for Desktop desktop environment kind of things like uh, how do you open the file manager? How do you do this? How do you? He would have been much better off if conky was set to auto start It was there. It was there on the desktop. I could see but Who in their right mind puts dark gray on light gray text? True Dude, I love that color skew back at the all right. Wait, hold on. We do have you do have to understand Back in the day our screens were not nearly as high resolution as they are now Wait, I was coming to that. It actually makes it worse by the way. I'm just saying Because I was getting to that. I was getting to that. That was not very smart glasses to read the text these days I was like you put dark gray on light gray and The scaling is out of whack Yeah, oh mama mia mama mia madre de dios Then I like it I started wanting to to install something called flatback. Then it tell me no flatback Wait, is flatpack not supportive? You gotta remember it's not out of the box. You know, it's bull. It's bull's it's bull's eye And bull's eye at this point doesn't have a flat pack that really works Josh told us about that like 20 minutes ago. Yeah Don't you guys listen to josh? He's the teacher here. You guys got to listen. Look, to be honest I thought he was talking about his fedora stuff. I thought he was talking about his silver blue crab So like oh, they broke they broke flatback like on the door So I installed flatback and it tell me no flatback in z pass. Yeah, that happens to to to to wizard of us Where yeah, uh because of the version of uh flat pack that debbie and bull's eye shipping That's that's that's the version of flat pack where after you install it you actually have to reboot the system No, we have to reboot the system and add to pass you have to add to pass first There's there's a lot of distributions that don't come with flat pack out of the box That you have to add there the things to path and you have to add the repo You have to add the repo not only installs the package But then I started installing my packages from flat hub and then I could not see some packages in the right click app Potato catch up and thingy magicky you call a menu and the right click So I I could not find anything install install spend two hours installing and then I get what nothing in the in the menu app menu I call app menu. It's not up. It's in the right click. What okay? We say, okay Find no apps. Then I say Ask josh. What is this? Oh, it's open box window manager As soon as he said that that hard disk was taken out of the system and thrown on the desk Yes, if you give it more of a try, I think you put it but I think that What I said before is that this is a bad representation for someone to start off on a window manager It's just it's not intuitive. It's not well Don't give me no window manager. No matter how easy it is because I don't like to deal with something called configuration file lose I'm telling you This guy may this guy publishes his own arch based distribution Ah, but I don't deal with god I do drag drop drag drop copy paste I'll take something somebody wrote a bash script to install your distro for you As somebody else did not me I I'm gonna come up with a challenge for steve I want him to use archcraft like actually use the archcraft open box I did I did I did you never have already gave it to me. I'll give it to me. He told me and we work together on on calamari These these you think I don't know about archcraft. I don't know my favorite. I'm just saying my favorite. It uses open box One of my favorite to look at not to use Okay It actually has even Even has a dock. I mean just for steve. Oh dad. I like that He uses latte. He uses latte. He used to use latte But now he switched because he said latte person die. Uh, no, uh leave project Leave project. So I switch. I use normal doc planko. Uh, whatever it is jump So I think we're gonna end up having a rule where like We're gonna have like we're gonna have limits on the amount of diablo 4 ones allowed to take in before they come to a No, no, this is not related to diablo 4. I am all right If we have a rule like that, we have to make a rule about zero ad before Before podcast day. I and you know what josh? I think we should because y'all delinquents had me All freaking not playing zero ad. Hey, man. Hey, man. I was excited to have somebody to talk to you at five in the morning Okay On the serious note, I just want to say that Really like the way it this distro brings nostalgia uh to the table uh, it's just I've had a lot of because the first thing I tried to do is I need to install my nvidia drivers and i'm like It's debbie in okay Here we go. And that's pre that's predates the non free isos available in bookworm today I'm like, what is one to do? What is one to do? Then I thought to myself why waste time?  I zero next wouldn't be what it is today. It's because I need to be pushed and And how should I say? I'll uh threatened at some point in a good way not in a bad way but uh, I finally Did create write the script and Jesse my co-host on my podcast just confirmed that my script works for wayland because he has a single monitor Uh, but for multiple monitors, it's impossible. Unfortunately. It's it's it's an entire mess on its own It comes to wayland, but my script works flawless might I add? I yeah, I had to spend time on these things So I didn't have really much time to spend on crunch bang and crack my skull against it I'm not saying window managers really suck Our beautiful window managers as we have a fanboy here over here that can prove it April land is one of the best if not the best wayland window managers Compositors out there and I do agree because I saw someone on matz server discord discord server uh showing off Rainbow animation on all his windows uh, I'm like I'll put I'll turn that into A blue and purple, but otherwise I love that Just waiting for a desktop environment That uh, that has all that and is super wayland compatible that josh before the podcast told us that it it might be coming if it comes Forget zero next kde spin a kde flagship. That will be the flagship So something something animated window borders somebody wants them Well, I kind of messed up part like About hyperland in general and this goes back to what we were talking about before about just josh having like knowledge that just He shouldn't have like he has just for absolutely no reason He's from the NSA I'm sure using hyperland at the time and he was like he was like looking like I was sharing my desktop He was like dude, don't you want animated borders? Like, you know, that's a thing you could just do And he showed me how to add it to my config. He didn't even use it at the time. He was just like, you know Yeah, but when I saw it on matz server, I was like Dude the first desktop desktop environment who uses that i'm switching to is any of the only reason I knew about the animated borders because Literally the night before I spent like three and a half hours figuring out what the heck of azir curve was that way I could set that up But but I swear to you guys The net that the first desktop environment that comes with the whale and stuff with the hyperland stuff Throwing kde out the window I'm switching to that because is that is boner Guaranteed kind of it's awesome. Like I got I got to be honest hyperland alone is really awesome. But like If you just Pre-packaged it with a preconfigured bar Pre-configured like notification system You know just like a few nice nice bits and bobs like an optional dock that you can turn like a hyperland version of like regolith or something That's what you're talking about. I'm thinking I'm thinking I'm thinking more along the lines the qt based Stop environment with hyper with hyperland stuff I don't know like qt qt are way more customizable than gtk Which brings me to something and I know it's a small tad attention, but I I feel I'm at this point I feel I it needs to be said because uh, I love And respect and I'm showing true love to to the gnome developers because they did something in gnome 44.2 that I never thought possible Uh, gnome 44.2 specifically this version They push the update online. I know the arch maintainer does not push everything online when it comes to gnome Uh, that's another story Uh Performance on gnome 42 just took It's piped up to the infinity What they do They enabled the hardware acceleration enabled the heart well that okay, that's a given by Wait, hold on full shell hardware acceleration. Yes. Why was it not enabled already? reasons Because It was it was it's actually largely legacy reasons, uh, basically a lot of technical debt was put into it and uh, they were still working on importing The gnome shell session itself to gtk4 so prior to gnome 44.2, uh, your Your the shell itself basically like the top panel and then like the overview window and all that That was still gtk3. That was not gtk4 yet But now it's gtk4 It's hardware. He just want to talk about it. He just has knowledge that he should not have So basically once they unlock the hardware acceleration Because when I I have zero, uh, zero g on this ssd that I switched to I I put it on this one because it says v for victory. Uh, but, uh I moved my mouse.  Whereas before I had to do at least two I have a track ball. I had to do the for it to move twice How once and it jumped and I was like and the animation is so smooth Yep Today I enabled Wayland via my script because I my script works for kde and gnome Did enabled Wayland on gnome The most wonderful experience I've ever had on something I have until today been calling Not ready yet. Not ready yet. Not ready yet. Well on gnome The daily driver Even on high if you if you would finally give hyperland a chance with the window manager, it's not something I would use But it's not a window, Andrew. It's a capacitor What? Yes, there is a difference so, uh, I I enjoyed I enjoyed gnome, but for the love of god love of god when you A user comes mentioned Twitter or on social media that hey It's my unix born screenshot of gnome Modified gnome made it look beautiful And One of the one gtk random gtk developer not gnome related just a random gtk developer attacks that person for Doing it going as far as to theming a gtk apps and gtk the gnome shell and whatever Attack that person Think them they stole they robbed them of their identity Not the right way to go about it Well, that's I think that's been I think that's how we all know yeah, but what I'm saying is don't let that stop you from using something that works Like I was going to quit using gnome because that person attacked me Well, this is this is something that I think we we all have acknowledged like just I'm new to this kind of behavior. I'm new to this kind of there is a segment of the gnome community Whether they be maintainers or not or like people that happen to develop gnome themed applications To absolutely think that you should never theme anything because gnome There was a blog post from a gnome developer that said themes are inherently broken And don't use my app. Don't don't theme my app. Don't obviously none of them actually read the don't theme my app website The don't theme my app website which by the way, Matt if you can pull it up for us and look at this beautiful website It is a work of art, but anyways, uh If we look at this website, it clearly says Distribution maintainers And distribution developers Don't theme my app. It does not say anything about users users exactly Users is not perfectly fine to to theme gnome Yeah, but I wasn't and and the thing that I explained to that random gtk person was like You look at zero g It does not theme any app. It does not use any themes. It live at white a dark And in my video, I did not mention to users.  I'm using gnome and The best experience I ever had on a desktop environment better than kde and I will swear by it Even though I am a kde shill Nikolo, I will forever root for kde, but You need to be realistic here and we need to touch grass and Acknowledge Because gnome Follow the eunuchs philosophy of do one thing and do it good That's why their desktop environment works Ede they're doing a lot of things Everywhere So it's normal for instability to creep up in the desktop environment. I'm not saying they're doing a bad job. I'm just saying that So spread out inherent differences in their design like gnome. It's just about You know, it's literally just about gtk and the desktop and they're doing it good and I can I can say for a fact because I I talked to a lot of theme developers. I went into this rabbit hole I talked to I talked to eliva Lara the creator of Dracula Kat Puccine and those sweet and all those famous themes Uh For like we We bypass limitations because we believe in the freedom for user Being able to use their and customize their opera their desktop environment or window manager the way they are desired There should not be limitation People want limitations. They should go to apple or window So I agree with them to a certain degree, but not totally because when it comes to gnome Uh, it was not meant to be completely Customized and messed with because I'm using it as is with lipid white or dark. I'm not theming it and I haven't touched it Not a single issue. I have a vm I used leon dark From vince luce The system is not behaving correctly. There's a lot of delay there's a lot of Skip frames because there are layers because what are themes the themes are layers on top of the actual original layer replacements, it's uh css Replacement scss replacements. That's where I where I know scss from because the new livid vita. It uses scss Well the new gtk, it's not just redrawn over a layer. It actually replaces it replaces the place color, but no Intercepts the call and then it Intercepts the call. Yeah, that's what I wanted to say it intercepts the call. That's why they replay they sim link the assets folder That of using the original one they replace the original one with a sim link Goes to their version that replaces the original one So that's what theme developers need to do to theme uh livid vita apps, but not everyone Here's another thing. I was told by one of the theme developers Asked them. Why didn't you update your theme? He was like, uh We'll only support up to gtk3. I will not touch livid vita with a 10-foot call Well, there's a lot of gtk developers that don't want to do it because it's much more difficult Not only much more difficult. They don't want to deal with uh with the gnome developers There's a reason why popo s and and the budgie developers are leaving gtk behind Yes, because because if The way gtk is going is is the way gtk wants to go and if you don't want to go that direction then you shouldn't use it There are obviously other options, but a lot of you you notice They're not none of them are choosing qt Because qt has its own problems so qt is It's in a league of its own. It's not something and I don't like to criticize qt because I use qt on kde but They're getting better. Uh, kde is getting less and less buggy But not at the pace of gnome They need longer time a longer period to get to if they ever get to this ability of gnome I want to tell us I want to tell a small story. So I made that video about the new tiling that is in uh plasma And I was very very Critical of it because it it just feels blatantly unfinished, right? Um, and I just called it bad like I that's what I call it was I said it was bad And the number of people in the comment section and said, oh, this is just beta This is their first try. This is beta software and it just struck me as completely Like it made me just pause for me because five that two seven is an lts version of plasma So those people who are telling me that this this feature is a beta piece of software in an lts just dry like what? What did you see nicolos replied to you? No Nicolo he he replied to me and because I replied to matt saying that The it's advancing too fast and they're taking too many things under their wings causing a little bit of instability and then And it takes for I said it something along the lines. It takes them forever to fix Then nicolos the developer behind the latte panel and the tiling part of the tiling and other things that he's working on for qt6 He comes at us.  It's disrespectful Oh, you're talking about that thread on on on masted on yeah, I completely ignored the stuff on masted I've been talking about mostly in the in the youtube comments because I was just I was so very surprised At the response to that video his response was good, but on masted on it was different Yeah, um anyways respectful like bro, but it's true It's critical. It's a constructive criticism Exactly. He saw it as Disrespectful. I was like dude But we're this is kde. We're talking about you're one of the developers you you should know But then I remembered one thing Remembered that he's one of the developers and he uses debian. He doesn't touch arch Is a discrepancy here because arch is one thing and debian is another arch is Ships different dependencies for some packages As he has full control over all the dependencies on kde neon because it's the mother ship for kde Less that's No, it's still What now that's the sonar. You know, we're still waiting many dogs and all these new features The thing is is like we say we say that kde has a ton of bugs and it's true But they can't they can't help it you can't add that many features and then not have a whole bunch of It's just the nature of the difference between gnome and kde is very simple open flow Yeah, it's simple opinionated closed twin Twin arms we accept everything and anything with open arms Oh By being here's this is my argument. Why do you think people use apple so much macOS and apple? That's why the apple makes money because more people use apple laptops than normal laptop Why because it does what it's supposed to do. It's boring for us thinkers. Yes The mother share wouldn't really agree with you that more people use apple laptops than windows laptops The more elder people Well, people who just want things done Use apple devices people thinkers like us. We are growing in numbers That's not true Well, no, no apple is mainly used by audio engineers and then people who don't know any better So I was in dubai in dubai there was not a single soul that didn't have a macbook Josh well that's only because macbooks are status symbols So there's really there's realistically going josh There are realistically three people that use apple devices One is the person that wants to buy the $2,000 facebook machine because they hear apple products are good Yes Yeah, the other one is the developer that doesn't realize that linux is the thing that people actually use The third thing is the media content creator who who thinks that they have to use an apple because that's all Because the only tools that they ever learned were from apple products I mean, I'm sure there is there's a lot of engineers and like sound sound producers That's like people like that. There are people who legitimately like apple and that's fine So we don't we don't want to discount the people who actually like to use apple and mac os and Apple and mac os i'll tell you But the vast majority of people guys buy a $300 or $400 laptop from Best Buy it runs windows Okay That said that said they're uh the apple Apple for like content creation or media creation in general They they have historically always had a an amazing audio stack and that's why that's why it's so popular in media That said I think that linux with pipe wire is going to catch up to them eventually Eventually, but it won't be fast because pipe wire is not able to compete right now Like not yet.  I wasn't using the same patch pay program you use But like I can't remember what it was called But like I was like the back end for for audio on linux may catch up But it's not going to get anywhere near where apple is until the software comes around with it And some of the daas and stuff that people use and stuff like that that only work on On mac os you're gonna have to have some of that stuff on linux. It's just and right now It's just not there. There are some daas on linux. Don't get me wrong, but a lot of the things that people really truly rely on Just are on linux Guess what it's the dobby problem Now apple is working on their own version of proton Nounce in wwgc 23 Yeah, but the only problem though is is I can guarantee you one thing Their version is not just going to be compatible Like it won't just be like proton and developers will have to be involved Now as somebody that watched wwgc and paid some attention to it It's apples Apples version of proton is just for testing. It is not for actual production use So no yet not yet not yet apple No, no, they straight up advertised it as a dev tool for helping you port your application to mac os That's what they said. That's how they advertise it. That is 100 percent of their sales And then they literally proceed to to get yoshi yokohama or whatever his name is to talk about it From the last from the last of us To talk about it. So, uh, I think Something bigger at play here No, no, that's it's it's literally just for porting over Advocate like you're all you're half Porting applications and games and games. Well, no, no. Yeah. No, we're talking about games Proton works on mac os already if I'm not mistaken steams steams version of proton works on mac os I'm not yes, I mean So, I mean, it's not as if there's anything new. I mean This is just them trying to get more native games On mac os. Yeah The only problem, you know, I know macs have been super powerful gaming machines See, here's the problem. I know game developers and no game developer Wants to port over to mac for the same reason they don't want to port over to linux linux Like the user the user volume is so low that if they do port it, all right This is uh, so true with linux or mac Every game developer who's ever supported those platforms will tell you as soon as they switch over to them They're the smallest portion of their player base yet. They report the most tickets out of the entire player base Okay, so that's not okay. I have a comment about that There's not the reason why that's true is because linux users are much more likely to report a bug than a windows user is It's just because we're so used to doing so, you know But it's also the same with mac Yeah, I I think porting in that Our game to mac is so rare. I mean it happens actually more often on linux than it does on mac I at least that's just the impression that I get the the The three versus one apple hate cast I don't hate apple. I like I like apple just fine. I wouldn't I wouldn't use a mac That's just because the hardware is expensive I don't want to spend $3,000 on on a why do you think I have a macbook because I got it for 200 bucks Like I I lost out the reason I lost after the the mac studio.  I wanted one desperately Um, you saw the red one that got sold for a million bucks It just could never afford it. It's just too expensive. So that's that's my thoughts on on mac So here here's the last thing I want to say about the conversation. We just had the whole Um, vr thing the apple just announced I'm very interested. Please don't get there. Don't get there.  Oh, it's not going to be a game changer. It's going to be whole it's it's It's my my What I would want to let me finish I would have just asked when do you guys think mozilla's gonna make one? That's all I was gonna have to say Because mozilla does all anything that they think is going to create the next big splash a i metaverse, you know They have to create their own version of it Yes, that is true, but the apple thing is just It's a step one more step towards the matrix I I fully believe if if mozilla Announces of the r-headset. I fully believe that we as a community can come together And full on siege their headquarters And let's raid their headquarters. This is unacceptable. I think if they make a big headset and waste Google's money on another craptastic product I swear In general it has a horrible history with hardware Well, no, I don't think that's why I think I don't think it would be a hardware I think they would there a mozilla phone at some point. Yeah, there was Um, I think instead it would be them creating like a virtual os Like it'd be the os that they'd want other people to use on their hardware I think it's more likely the way that it would go. It was a mozilla os as well on the Mozilla phone. Yeah, firefox os was a thing. Fox os. Yeah, it was it. It was not good. Okay. It was not terrible It's weird from a from a company that Actually makes software that they thought that bringing that out to market was a good idea Um, and in fact the old website is still around firefox os devices.org I just checked it's still alive. They can't believe they still own the url, honestly I don't know.  I still think was ultimately a good idea I I do think that it was a good idea It's just that the way that they implemented it of targeting, you know Just those african markets where it's just like nobody nobody's ever heard of or used a cell phone before Just a straight straight up was a wronged market to release into The way the the way their os was it was like android easy mode Well, okay, so first of all the the the us market here Is so hard to get into because of the all the carrier nonsense But where they should have so like I don't know guys have known this but like the biggest market for firefox is brazil Right they released it in brazil They had a thing because firefox is huge there for whatever reason The only reason they didn't ship to brazil is because brazil has some of the highest tariffs in the world for import for product imports It's actually insane like uh If you want to buy anything that's not made in brazil in brazil It's gonna there's like a 130 mark up in on some in some markets. It's just crazy Guys, we're kind of we're kind of like shooting off the topic here because here's the thing no matter what Their whole plan with the devices and everything was never going to function because they never There was never a plan for how it made profit Like okay, yeah, so you Are you making money on the end product? No, or your margin is razor thin So no profit there same without where you what markets are you dumping this into? Well impoverished markets, which is good to get them online and like possibly get them educated like that's good That's that that's a good thing But again, no profit. So that doesn't that doesn't for a business that doesn't make sense I don't blame firefox for this because it is It is astonishingly hard for any third party to come out and create a phone With their own operating system that isn't android that isn't ios. So, uh, amazon tried facebook tried Uh canonical tried microsoft tried, you know firefox tried like literally these are all Major multi billion dollar corporations all tried their own operating system bringing out their own phone I mean hell microsoft bought nokia and they still couldn't make it work And nokia has been around since the 1800s Well, you know the thing is that that was that was also a different age I actually think that if somebody came out with like a third party phone platform and it handled like voice calls and And uh, that's expensive. All that is expensive. All that is expensive Does it doesn't mimo still exist? And mimo's mimo does still exist But I think that if the firefox phone was to actually come out today and actually ship on a reasonable device you know like something Something maybe a lot like super awesome like, uh, you know, like my Like my samsung phone But maybe something a little bit more powerful than like this pine phone that I have, you know, like maybe like pine pine phone pro plus You know something something with like reasonable phone hardware It doesn't have to be like super high-end or suit or like super Super modern maybe try with the one plus like sanogen mod tried Yeah, something like that if they would ship on a on a reasonable hardware platform That you know it of course Something like that's probably not gonna be like fully open source or completely completely libre But you know, I think that a firefox phone today could actually make valid sense And and people would actually buy it because people these days are actually buying dumb phones again Yeah Especially in the market in the market as somebody that has actually used firefox os Because you know, they somebody ported it to a nexus 5 It gets you had a nexus 5 at the time.   I I watched a while ago. I think close to a year ago or christa's tech tried to switch back to a dumb phone Uh, and it's been on it until today until recently Dumb phones today work Especially in in in a yeah, boberish markets like mine Dumb phones make sense Uh, and I think and today I'm gonna say something I today. I no longer want to travel anywhere I want to stay in lebanon. Why because of apple's keynote. I saw how People are giving up their lives just for the sake of convenience Over here they would like to but they can Because the market is not the right one and we have the current economical crash The biggest history in our history. I'm pretty much in agreement. We over here in the west in the us We're pretty sold out for convenience I mean, I literally hate my iPhone, but I cannot I cannot like I couldn't go back to a different phone Like it's got too many freaking features. Also, like here's here's how much of a Um, a slave I am to my convenience Like I'm so I've gotten to the point now where I'm so dumb I cannot like not use the maps. I have to I have to use the maps to go We become dependent we become dependent we become dependent for the sake for the sake of convenience But also open my eyes The thing the problem though is is like without this I have to go back to like using Like open maps or Something like that where I've got to download it manage my my stuff and it's just like I've definitely You know when there's one shot Sorry, judge, but there's one shot that I saw in a video that I shared on mastodon There's one shot that got to me and it got to me at the core Got me at the core It's a shot of mark zuckerberg walking down the aisle in in a theater Everyone was wearing his Gilles quest or whatever on their face everybody was wearing it was like hey wally I remember you I remember those big big guys and women on on those Over a hovercraft that who didn't because of gravity didn't know that walking was a thing. They forgot that walking was a thing Oh, I that flashed me back right there and I was like oh Video opened my eyes and wwgc even wider with this thing they call Apple whatever they call it So no see the the problem is of the apple of the our headset I was like oh this could be a game changer. This is this is kind of wild Everyone's going to have a VR headset then when they announced the price I'm like 3,500.   Come on now The thing the thing that got me about it was that they they advertised watching a movie on it And then came out with a battery pack that only lasts two hours Yeah, like you do They're like come on man. I guess I'm not watching lord of the rings Or avatars like three hours long and that's the one that they advertised you can even watch the whole thing on the battery pack Yeah, I watched it recently avatars But the the the thing that even got me even worse Was when they showed the woman and they showed her spinning the the digital crown on the thing Yes, and it was shutting down the real world more and more and more I didn't see it like a positive thing. I thought I saw it as I'm losing a touch with the real world more and more and more and more and more until I become I lose touch completely with the real I kind of want to watch I kind of want to rewatch the matrix after watching that, you know All right, like that's that's kind of the problem with all of this like new VR shit It's like it's cool, but at the same time there's also this kind of like There's an undeniable existential threat to it at the same time. Yeah dystopian future dystopian future. That's anyways To rewind about like the things that we used to do before we got smartphones Uh, just a few weeks ago I I went to an old an oldie by a goodie to find some directions I went to uh the cute old reliable map quest To and I and I printed out directions on how to get to a destination First of all, can we just pause and think for a minute that map quest is still online Um, I didn't even know they were still paying for hosting D do you know how map quest is still alive? No, who owns it now he was owned by yahoo either for a long time I think yahoo still owns it First of all, but the reason why map quest is still alive Is because they is because they are selling their map data to google for google maps Oh Makes sense. I was totally expected And at this point at this point the only reason they're still alive is because of the royalties. That's it Yeah, I had no clue because that was the thing to use back when geo cities was a thing Um, did you even after did you guys know that someone's bringing back geo cities? I I saw this unless I made it up in my mind somebody was actually bringing it back um I don't know what it was isn't Didn't my space still alive my space is still it's a it's a band thing now. It's for music Um, it's like naps or all of the cool kids are They had a and it still looks like the way it looked when it shut down Uh, I don't actually don't think that it ever shut down. I think you're still uh speaking speaking of geo cities Uh, I think the internet archive is is is the one you were talking about bat No, there was something came out like a new version that people could actually sign up and create new sites for um, I saw it now I think it's uh, it's built by google it's called google spaces I mean they google had an option for I don't think that this this was it There's one there's one called neo cities, but I don't think that that's what I was thinking of Well google is shutting down yet another product. It's uh my pages I think it was called my pages where you could create websites and host them by google now.  You're my page's data You want to migrate your my I have no my page date. I never built a website on that thing Why are you sending me a message? My space is a free music or a music platform now. It's no longer on social media Yeah, what am I gonna do how i'm gonna meet all my cool friends just me you guys are You guys remember four square Oh, it's neo cities. Thanks chat I don't know. Yeah, I think that might be the one that I was thinking of but it doesn't matter guys.  That's basically this episode I mean That basically is like the review of crunchy being plus plus from all of us Where it's just like yeah, it's just deviant with with with the open box. I'm like, yeah, there's really nothing unique here and Matt I now was serious when I told you I am on To be in but I am on bullseye, uh, not bullseye. I am on Sort of No, bookworm not yet. I'm waiting for the excuse me as josh would say book room the the book the But Website still hasn't been updated by the way. It's still 11 Yeah, it's still 11.7, but The uh, I'm on a debbie in distro.  It's not bad No, it but I'm gonna get off of it as soon as possible because Uh, I'm talking to you guys without nvidia drivers Speaking of getting off of things as soon as possible right after this stream There's going to be an emergency episode of distro hacking because I forgot what day it was last uh yesterday Let's that should be fun to watch. All right guys. Let's go ahead and move on to the thingies of the week. So, uh, Josh, why don't you go ahead and go first? okay, well, obviously because uh, You know picks of the week or absolute week are trademarked we call these things thingies of the week because We can't think of anything. Uh, I didn't I didn't do the bit because I wanted to get us out of here by five o'clock Oh, you're welcome But anyways, uh, my thingy is is the world's most exciting thing ever because you know speaking of a blast from the past guys I present to you Newsflash, it's an rss reader and you can see that I've already got some article updates Well, why am I talking about newsflash because new newsflash has this wonderful thing that that uh, Not not a whole lot of rss readers seem to do and that is native and actually working Next cloud sync which means and because you know, I self-hose my own next cloud instance, which by the way that the three of you Full access to it by the way Yeah, make make make my ten dollars a month. It's justified more, please but anyways, uh It is it is proper working sync the way that I actually wanted to work like it It not only syncs like the article downloads But it syncs to the position that that uh, I last left the article in uh, it syncs to read status of the article Not only have on this I have a question for you about this josh Does it format the post correctly? Does it put the videos in the center when they should be in the center and does it format everything correctly? Yes, however, there's a trick to that because It's also dependent on how the website has has their uh, market language setup because you know, it's not always raw html anymore Sometimes it's javascript And uh, our assessment javascript don't always get along Now feedly is one of the worst ones Yeah, but it I honestly do think that it does a better job Better job than feedly does that said I haven't used feedly in like the past six years So I might be a little a little bit dated on that opinion But I only use feedly for one for one reason and one reason only for pirated game website rss feeds My my podcast is we get so getting demonetized. That's twice the piracy where it came up. That's awesome At least one at least that one's not going to get get you super nintendo. You guys are gonna owe me like three dollars and 50 cents Are you talking about you owe us 15 dollars because you bet about audacity and I'm picking up the right source All right, by the way, I think I made a video on newsflash before I think it's a good That's a really good pick there josh. Thank you for that Steve you're thinking of the week Oh god, Lord, I shouldn't have even asked Reason is Diablo 4 because is because I've been playing Diablo since the day it was released in 1997 I'm yeah, that dates me But uh Yeah, I love that series. I hate the time you were born Tyler Tyler yeah, uh, but uh the uh The Diablo immortal was the worst one of them all I didn't touch that with a 10 football because it was all about money making and monetizing it was They they have since fixed it. I guess they came up with a with an announcement But I don't play mobile Diablo on mobile Uh, so when I installed it First thing I did I bought it and I bought the digital deluxe edition to get early access It cost me 89.99 So the most expensive game I ever bought Right, uh, I installed it downloaded it and installed it directly on the steam deck It had its quirks where it rebooted my steam deck every now and again because optimization issues But I can confirm they fixed it because on the podcast as the guys were talking about the shingaman Bum bum bum ba linux distro I had I was enjoying it on the steam deck And that area got fixed. It's no longer kicking me out. So there was a 200 meg update But it ran on the steam deck 40 fps flawless at medium setting so I was like They optimized it for the steam deck out of the gate because you get the buttons The indi button indicator what each button does what you open your inventory and stuff like that And graphically I played it on the desktop, of course Because here on the steam deck you have to set it to medium So the high-res texture pack that downloads with the game is a waste of space I played it on the desktop. I my jaw dropped to the floor I couldn't I couldn't pick up my jaw because the graphics were beyond stunning You know the game best part about the about microsoft acquiring activision is that maybe they'll bring Diablo and all those games and stuff to steam that'd be awesome.  So I'm assuming I mean But then it comes to steam first Well, no, I'm not I'm not expecting it. I'm not expecting it to come first I'm just eventually somewhere down the line. It would be nice to be able to download You know overwatch or hardstone or or uh, you know diablo from steam. That'd be cool I mean you'd think they'd want to make that extra money eventually tear Yeah, but diablo 4 comes with a major flaw You can't stop playing No, it's it's more major than that The single player story is an afterthought No, that's a shame This this time around because they concentrated on people online playing and yeah Doing the pvp and the single player stories are going the way of the dodo. It's just that's the way it is It's really unfortunate because do you guys remember call of duty used to have like that was like the focus was the single player story now It's all about multiplayer. Yeah, and and the fact that they're using Oh, this is some people call it woke, but they're they're they're using Women actresses and whatever to sell the product and and even the the The big baddie of the game is lileth And she's not she's not scary one bit. She talks with a Three mild voice and she Yeah, she's hot.  I mean, that's just being real Yeah, yeah, and and and the whole story in diablo 4 is like give in Give in to your sin Win to your sin. I'm like that's the only lines that lileth Says throughout the whole game in different shapes or forms, but that's the only thing she says throughout the game scary Come on, it's So it's it's a really soul to me was the micro transactions that pop up every three minutes No, no more no more Transactions they relegated that to a tab called the shop You you only go there when you're desperate for for money to buy things for silver to buy things They relegated it to one tab.  Okay, and The game there's there's only one good part of the game.  It's you might as well be getting spit on by the developer Yeah That and the and the fact that the story is non-existent. It's almost non-existent Like I don't I don't understand how we've gotten to a point in gaming where it's just Accepted that games are going to remove like one third of the features Out of the game and then charge you an extra 30 40 bucks on top of the base game for that That's why the judges did just just say rest in peace to the unabomber in the chat I did because I because you know Close the news flash window and I saw an article where he died today. He was 81. So it sounds like I Tyler you're thinking no no no guys this just podcast has got to end sometime please Tyler you're thinking of the week, please mine is It's the like one of the nicest features Of linux and josh knows knows about it. I'm sure plenty of people in chat do as well But not the blender screen but the fact that I'm showing it off l4 l2 loop back using Using the nice obs virtual cam features It's really nice. It is genuinely nice to be able to switch back and forth for a webcam and sharing your screen and Tyler would you do me a big favor like you and I are friends, right? Would you do me a favor and find your youtube password so you can make a video on how to do that? Oh, yeah Me and me and josh could be Would be more than happy to do that because the only reason this bitch works is because joss was willing to hold my hand throughout the entire process Because I was I was ready to I was there was at one point Where I was genuinely ready to go out into my yard pick up a rock and walk it and just smash my computer to bits I was Oh I looked at the I looked at the documentation many times In order to figure out how to do that and it just makes me stare at it dumbly I almost have to drool because my IQ just bleeds out of my ears Um, okay, so so matt what distro are you on right now open suze tumbleweed? Okay, uh, I will make a video Right after this podcast right before right before emergency distra hacking on how to enable that on open suze tumbleweed And I'll upload it that way you can watch it on thursday at 2 p.m. Because it's the only time I ever upload Okay, that's cool boys.  I'm on the podcast All right I don't think I want to do my thingy. I think we need to end there I think that these You're the rising channel You got to do your thingy. Yeah, okay So my pick last time we did a podcast was pie wall and now I'm going to do one that goes with it So if you use pie wall, which you should if you're in a window manager And you want to theme your window manager automatically based on your wallpaper. It is amazing But also there's a tool called pie wall fox and you install it you start the demon and it will change your Firefox theme to match your pie wall colors It is awesome I mean it's like so Freaking good Um Because one of the things like so I used to create all of my own themes, right? Like I spent a lot of time making videos about cranky creating my own themes And one of the hardest things to do is finding a firefox theme that goes with a pre-created theme Like there are obviously dozens and hundreds of thousands of themes or whatever on the Firefox door but finding one that goes with it and you always have to set it manually now you can There are ways of getting around that you can change the gtk theme if you set it for automatic gtk theme But that means that a gtk gtk theme has to exist This is automatic and you can just issue a command inside of the terminal to get firefox to update the theme So every time I just wrote a script so it'll change the wallpaper. It'll change the pie wall It will does the pie wall color scheme It restarts q-tile and it issues the command to reset the firefox A theme as well. It's Awesome. So if you like if you are at all end of theming your window manager Looking to pie wall looking to pie wall fox.  It's it's called a themix and omox mox There is a way to get You call to umox. Yeah, they're they're together. So I don't I haven't gotten into it at all So I don't know anything about it yet. All I know is supposedly there's a way to use it with pie wall Which means that your gtk themes will also take on the colors scheme. So um, yeah That's that's my my thing of the week But but doesn't work with limit white You couldn't get me to touch gnome with a 10 foot pole Oh Like look josh, I I need you to talk some sense into matt over here We and steve. I know you've probably had some conversations with matt now that you're a gnome user as well behind the scenes, but We all need josh to just come out and say it He's having a deep passionate love affair with gnome behind the scenes He doesn't want anyone to know about it, but it's fine It's totally okay I'm using The most gnome stack of gnome stacks You guys might see that I have a firefox window open, but i'm not using firefox as my daily web browser Uh, in fact, uh, my last video was not recorded using obus studio Uh, my last video was actually recorded using cheese and pipe wire with some pipe wire magic, but anyways, uh, uh The I am using in almost 100 full gnome stack, and I'll be honest with you epiphany is actually usable web browser It's not the greatest. It's not the fastest, but it's usable That's that's the important part. I still won't use gnom, and I'm not having a Hold on. Hold on. Come on.  Hold on. There's there's more to this Uh, you guys might you guys might remember that we've mentioned this app application a while ago called gradients, right?  It's fine. It's not pile wall It's not a window manager It's gnome. No Like okay matt matt the same way the same the same way you won't touch gnome with a ten foot pole is Way, I won't touch a window manager. Usually stave. We're much more in sync than this is what usually We're very much more in sync with this but this is where we're opposites. All right Anyways, that is holy hell the podcast Um That was the linux cast that was rant cast. Yeah, we or you know just for dudes hanging out We had some we had a time we'll we'll be back to doing the news next week where it's so we were it's much more You normally We think that our normal structure is not actually structured. This was just proving us wrong We'll go back to the normal structure next week if you want to watch us live And I assure you that you do because we're much more entertaining live and in color You can do so on the linux cast youtube channel youtube.com slash linux cast will record live every saturday around three o'clock pm eastern time That is the time where we go live. We usually then go for about two hours or so Dang it man.  Uh any anyways head on over to the youtube give it a thumbs up Give us a subscribe really appreciate it before I go. I should take a moment to thank my current patrons Thanks to everybody who does support me on patreon at patreon.com slash linux cast you guys are awesome, there's some Like horns going on in the background as a celebratory Somebody's getting married Well, mazal tov Anyways That's the end of the thanks everybody for watching. Uh, thanks everybody who supports me on patreon. You guys are awesome We'll see you next week Boy Bye everybody. 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