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I admire the people I work with. They're incredibly good. And because they're so good, I can be good. There's never been a better time to be a nerd. And that's the beauty of it. Welcome to What's Next from IBM Research. I'm Shaheen Parks, your host and moderator today. This is the first in a planned series of seminars, which will provide a window into some of the exciting work happening here at IBM Research. The What's Next seminar series will cover topics in the areas including artificial intelligence, hybrid cloud, and quantum computing. The format of these sessions will be 30 minutes with some of our leading researchers divided into two parts. The first half of each session will be technical talk, which will be followed by a moderated discussion. Please feel free to use the chat feature to ask questions or provide comments throughout today's presentation, and then we'll be able to include them in our discussion. Now, I'm very happy to introduce Pin Yu Chen. We'll be discussing his work on reprogramming large models with limited resources. Dr. Chen is a research staff member here at IBM, where he is the chief scientist of the RPI-IBM-AI Research Collaboration, as well as the principal investigator for several ongoing MIT-IBM Watson AI lab projects. He holds a PhD from the University of Michigan, and he was awarded an IBM Corporate Technical Award and Master Inventor in 2021. Dr. Chen's recent research focuses on adversarial machine learning and the robustness of neural networks. His long-term research vision is to build trustworthy machine learning systems. Pin Yu, we're very excited to hear more about your work in reprogramming today. So we'll go ahead and pass it over to you. Okay, yeah, thanks, Chen Xia-Hing, for the nice introduction. Hi, everyone. So today I'm going to show you a very exciting and cool technology called model reprogramming. So I would like to start by quoting Sir Isaac Newton. He once said, if I've seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. So I personally think this sentence will describe the advance we have observed in our AI technology and advancement. So in some data-rich domains like text, image, and speech, we do have the luxury to have these large pre-trained models to help us solve a lot of in-domain challenges. However, one interesting question to ask is are we able to maximally leverage these pre-trained models to solve problems that we encounter in the new domain, especially resource-limited domains where no pre-trained models are available and also the data could be limited, such as the medical imaging, molecule learning, and time series. So throughout this talk, I will show you what is model reprogramming and how it works and also provide some concrete examples to show the success of model reprogramming. And finally, I will explain why model reprogramming works. So eventually I hope you will get to the conclusion that model reprogramming is indeed a very data-efficient way to do transfer learning without model fine-tuning. So the power of pre-trained models has recently been given a new name called foundation models. So it was adopted as the one for all solution for very recent AI technology and advancement. So what is foundation models? So in a nutshell, it's basically a high-capacity neural network model pre-trained on a large-scale data and then can be efficiently fine-tuned on several downstream tasks. So one typical example would be GPV3, which is by far one of the largest language model humans has ever trained. So it consists of 1,000 billion tokens collected from multiple text sources like Wikipedia. And the model itself has more than 175 billion training parameters. And of course, its memory size is gigantic and the estimated cost is close to 12 million to train such a model. So having invested so much in these large foundation models, one interesting question is can we continue to reuse these models of when we encounter new tasks or new research problems? So that comes out into the core question that we want to answer in this talk. How can we use foundational models, especially in resource-limited settings? So income tries to resource-limited settings. In standard setting, we often adopt the solution of pre-training plus fine-tuning because we have sufficient data to pre-train a large model and then can be efficiently fine-tuned to in-domain tasks. Like you pre-train your language model on Wikipedia, they have sets and can be used to answer question answering or a natural language understanding. So in the standard setting, these foundational models is very similar to the role of a Swiss army in life. You can repurpose the efficiently for different tasks. However, in the resource-limited setting, it's basically a new domain with limited data or even compute power. And usually in that new domain, we don't have such a pre-train models. So in this case, pre-training and fine-tuning no longer works. So that's why we are proposing a new solution called the reprogramming and without fine-tuning the pre-train model from another domain. I also want to make a comparison between transfer learning and model reprogramming since a lot of you probably are familiar with the transfer learning. So transfer learning basically works through this idea of fine-tuning. So we take a pre-train model that was originally trained to solve a general task, like a general image classification problem, per se. And we are going to take that pre-train model and fine-tune some parameters in that model with respect to a specified task. In this case, a classifying different dog species. So that's usually how the fine-tuning works. However, a model reprogramming works in a very different fashion. So first of all, it features cross-domain learning. So here we are really trying to reprogram a pre-train model from a domain to solve a resource-limited task in a totally different domain. We also want to highlight the data or compute efficiency of the model reprogramming because that model reprogramming does not need to fine-tune the pre-train model way so it can be more a data efficient. We didn't need to worry about how do we fine-tune the parameters of the size of billions. And even better, model reprogramming achieves state-of-the-art performances on several examples that we are going to see shortly. So before I go to the details, I also want to show some background to tell you guys how this reprogramming idea comes from. So this paper published at IKLIA back in 2019 actually introduces reprogramming through the viewpoint of an adversarial. So they were viewing reprogramming as some sort of attack to our machine learning system because the attacker can possibly reprogram a model to perform other attacks without the model developer knowing. So there were some concerns about repurposing the model to do something that it is not designed to do in the first place. But if we look closely at the performance, so here the authors show how do we reprogram pre-trend image models to solve problems like counting squares in an image or MNIST or C-part 10 classification tasks. For those of you who are familiar with these texts, you will notice the test accuracies are OK, but not among the greatest. So their conclusion is the adversarial reprogramming, this idea works, but it is still not clear how can we make most of the fact that the models are reprogrammable. So we follow up this idea and we ask the question, how can we do with the fact that we have foundation models in some domains? And we know those models can be reprogrammable. And that is to our first work called BAR, Black Box Adversarial Reprogramming, published at ICML 2020. So we would like to study a few things that was not discussed in the original paper. So first, if we can truly do model reprogramming without changing the weight of the pre-trend model, then ideally we should be able to reprogram a totally Black Box model. So here, Black Box model means the model details is totally unknown to a user. Like the Black Box API, we are able to use the inference function of that API, but we didn't know what is inside that model. We also want to check how can we do cross-domain learning and also in the data-limited setting. And that's also the other two factors that were not discussed in the original paper. So on the right, I'm showing you a typical example of how this Black Box reprogramming works. So we take a pre-trend model that was originally designed to classify general images. And we are trying to see if we can reprogram that model to solve domain-specific problems in medical image domains, like autism spectrum disorder or melanoma image classification. So these problems often have limited label data because annotations are very expensive in these domains. So next, I'm going to show you how reprogramming or Black Box reprogramming works. So remember, we have these great foundation models. It's basically a pre-trend model on an original domain. In this case, we are using ImageNet as a motivating example. So how reprogramming works is we look at the target domain, the tasks. We are going to reprogram the pre-trend model to solve. And then we introduce several new modules to make reprogramming works. The first module we introduce is what we call a reversal program. So you can think of it as some input transformation layer parameterized by W. So it's basically we'll take the target data input and output reprogram the input data. So in this case, we will basically input the target data at the center of the data input. And then we give some space on the boundary to make them trainable parameters. And that will constitute a reprogram the data input for the target data. Then what we will do is we will pass the reprogram data to the pre-trend model. So you will expect to observe the predictions from the source domain. In this case, the ImageNet labels. So the next thing we do is to map the source labels to the target labels we are going to solve. So we will map a bunch of source labels to autism spectrum disorder and the other set of labels to non-autism spectrum disorder. So in that case, that constitutes the forward pass of the reprogram model. So what's remaining is how can we optimize the ways associated with the input transformation layer to minimize the loss we designed for a target task. So in this case, depending on what scenario we are looking at, in the white box scenario where the models are transparent to us, we can just use a typical back propagation or any gradient-based method to solve for the W that controls the parameter of the input transformation. In the black box setting, we can use some technique that is zero-sword order optimization. Use function values to update and optimize the parameters. So that constitutes the back propagation stage. So notice that in this framework, we indeed did not fine-tune the pre-tran model at all. All we did is to add an input transformation layer at the beginning and also some label mapping function at the end and make the whole model end-to-end trainable. So next, I'm going to make some examples of the, to show you the success of model reprogramming. The first example I want to show is how can we reprogram a general image classifier to do autism spectrum disorder classification. So this is the task of a binary classification with each class having around 500 samples. And each data sample is basically a correlation graph of our brain regions from those patients. The source model we are going to reprogram is the ImageNet pre-tran models. So here, because we know the pre-tran models and architecture, we can either do a white box anniversary programming or a black box reprogramming by pretending it as a black box model. So in the table that you are seeing here, we are comparing our method to training from scratch and also transfer learning, as well as state-of-the-art methods on this dataset. So there are several things that are not worthy to be mentioned. The first thing is data efficiency. So we do observe that the reprogramming is performed much better than transfer learning or training from scratch. Because in this case, there are just only a few data to train or to find team. So it's better to do reprogramming rather than spreading your data to thin and having too many parameters to train and optimize. The second thing is effectiveness. So we do observe using this reprogramming idea, the performance in terms of accuracy actually outperforms the state-of-the-art methods, which requires a lot of complicated hand design features and also data augmentation. And we also show the practicality in the sense that even treating the source model as a black box model will apply our bar technique, we still get comparable performance to the white box adversarial reprogramming method. Next, what we are going to show is, we mentioned we are able to reprogram a black box model without knowing the details of the model. So here we implement that idea on this Microsoft custom vision API. So this is the API that allows us to upload a data and it will train a model for us to do prediction without letting the user know what the model is. So in this case, we uploaded a traffic sign recognition data set, which consists of 43 classes. And we reprogram that black box model to do autism spectrum disorder classification. So you will see that it only take about $20 to get a very accurate model down here. And of course, if we pay more queries to that API, we will get a more accurate reprogramming capability and so it will improve the accuracy at the price of increased cost. But overall, this reprogramming idea really works. We can successfully reprogram traffic sign classifier on the cloud to do autism spectrum classification. The next example I'm going to show is related to time series. So this is an other rich domain where we do have a luxury of at least a powerful pre-train model. So it's basically a speech recognition model that takes speech signal as input and it will generate voice commands as output. So very similar to what we discussed in the image case. So we are interested in reprogramming this model to do time series classification. Like this one, for example, we want to classify whether that time series is anonymous or not. So what we will do again is put this target data into this reprogram layer and we introduce some space to allow the train of our weights and obtain this reprogram input. And then we will put this reprogram input to the pre-train acoustic model and also need to map the source label to the target label. So it's very similar to what we discussed for an image case. And you can imagine how flexible and how general this method can be, right? So in a way, this method is agonistic of what the architecture of the pre-train model is, right? So it can be a transformer-based speech model. It could be a unit-based speech model. But all we really care and all we are really reprogramming is inserting an input layer to reprogram the target input and also inserts an output label mapping function. And that's the only two modules we add to make this acoustic model can be reprogrammed to do time series classification. And on a popular UCR time series data set, our method actually outperforms there we are on 20 out of 30 tasks. So this really provides a lot of encouraging news and also excitement for us to apply this general and flexible technique to solve problems in a new domain with limited data. So finally, having seen the success of model reprogramming empirically, I would like to provide some theoretical justification on why model reprogramming works. So the first intuition that may come to our mind is there must be some knowledge transfer between the pre-train model to the problem we are solving. But this really cannot fully explain why we can see this reprogramming works across two very different domains. So we look into this problem and we actually develop a theory to explain the performance of the model reprogramming. So we are able to show that the performance on the target task in terms of the risk function can be upper bounded by the performance on the source task plus some representation alignment loss between the source and the reprogram target data. So this is kind of intuitive in the sense that if I have a perfect dog versus cat classifier and we are going to reprogram that classifier to do autism spectrum disorder classification, then if we can assure the representation of the dog can be aligned with the representation of the ASD patients and also the cat's representation can be fully aligned with the non-ASD patients, then we will know applying this pre-train foundational model for dog and cat classification can also solve the problem of classifying ASD versus non-ASD classification problems. So that's the intuition of why we have this representation alignment loss. To make this idea more concrete, we first look at the distance between the source and the reprogram target representations during training. So we will observe that as the model reprogramming trends, the input transformation layer, we do observe the distance between these two distributions start to decrease. And as these two distributions start to decrease, we do observe the loss on the target data start to decrease as well. And in the same time, the accuracy of the target data start to increase, which totally explains the theory that we identified. So once the two data distributions are aligned, you will get a reprogram model that is as reliable as solving the source task. So on the right, I'm just showing a more visual illustration in terms of how these reprogramming works. So here we are showing you the data distribution before reprogramming and comparing to transfer learning and also the data distribution after reprogramming. So in this case, we would see that before reprogramming, the two sets of data from different classes are not separable. So it will give you low classification accuracy. And even if you do fine tuning, the steel separation power is not great. However, with transfer learning, we are able to almost perfectly separate these two classes and achieve high accuracy. So this holds when we go to a more complex data with more classes. So this is really the power of reprogramming. So finally, I would like to give three takeaways. The first thing is I introduced a model reprogramming in this talk, which I believe is a very powerful paradigm for doing data-limited cross-domain transfer learning with these large pre-trained models or foundation models. And I show you some empirical success in general imaging to medical image. And also human voice through time series. We actually show we can also reprogram a natural language processing model to molecule learning problems. And we could talk more about that in a discussion time. Finally, I provide some theoretical justification in terms of why this model reprogramming works. And we can show that the target test can be solved as efficiently as the source test if their representation can be perfectly aligned. Lastly, we also release our codes for our published papers to reproduce our results. And also here are some references for those of you who are interested in getting to know more. With that, I will end my talk and give it back to Shaheen. Thanks, Pinyu. As we jump into our discussion portion of this talk, I want to take a minute and invite IBM clients to submit any questions you have through the Webex chat and we can certainly fold them in. But to get us started, Pinyu, it sounds like from what you've said that reprogram really offers a significant improvement in efficiency over retraining and fine-tuning an existing model. Could you elaborate a little bit for us on kind of the differences between retraining and fine-tuning and reprogramming and maybe talk a little bit about when you might choose one versus the other? Yeah, Shaheen, I think this is a great question to help us summarize what we probably observe in our research. So if we think of this access as some sort of data scale, like we have a very limited data to a medium-sized data to sufficiently many data. So in the data-rich regime, either fine-tuning or training from scratch will give you a good performance because it's data-rich and we should let the machinery model learn how to solve the task by exploring the data. However, things become more interesting and challenging when we go to the data-limited regime where we don't have enough data to train a large model like a neural net. So in this case, we really need to leverage the power of the model reprogramming to use the knowledge we learned from other domains and also reprogram the model in an efficient way to solve the challenging problem. And similarly, for transfer learning, it's kind of best suited in the medium-sized regime where we have some data but not a lot but it should be sufficient to do fine-tuning. But here we are really interested in the resource-limited regime where we don't have much data so even fine-tuning will not work as a baseline. So we really need to think of something outside of the box and be more efficient to leverage the data to do our job. So it sounds like the availability of data is one critical factor. What about cost? That's something you had also alluded to. Yes, so one thing we were very excited about is that having seen this such a big investment in terms of training a new pre-train model, foundation models that I have the millions of dollars of cost, we would like to reuse it as much as we can just for a computation of randomly also for reusing the assets that we already have. So I think other than data efficiency, this compute efficiency is also something that the reprogramming function will give you because we are only training the input transformation there instead of finding the entire network. So in terms of a number of parameters we need to train, it should be more compute efficient. That's something that most people can appreciate. You had mentioned GPT-3 as an example, I think most people are familiar with as being very costly and as a potential candidate. Would you say that all foundation models are good candidates for reprogramming or are there any particular criteria that might favor one set versus another? Yeah, this is a great question. So we don't have a clear answer yet, but we can kind of get some hints from the theories that we developed. So we can do model selection based on looking at the representation alignment laws that we created. So if we have the luxury of having to select one out of multiple foundational models to do reprogramming, we can simply look at the representation alignment laws and just choose the model that has the smallest representation alignment laws. And that in principle will give you the best performance on the target task we are solving. Well, that makes a lot of sense as well. I wanna switch gears a little bit because I know a topic that comes up in general in this space is the importance of trustworthy models and explainable models. And so I'm wondering how that is gonna play in with using reprogramming on an existing model. How can we evaluate the trustworthiness of a reprogramming model? Yes, I think this is a great question. So I think model reprogramming is the first step to show we are able to obtain some high accuracy and high performing model on a new domain with limited resource. And after showing the success in terms of the classification function, for example, the next thing of course we need to care about is the trustworthiness of that reprogram model. But luckily we already have a lot of tools that can help us to explore these trustworthy dimensions like IBM has to give a lot of open source libraries like AI, fairness 360, expandability 360 or adversarial process toolbox. So because of the reprogramming nature we can think of our model as nothing but a new neural network or a machine learning model and we can already apply these existing tools to inspect the trustworthiness of this reprogram model and make it more trustworthy if necessary. That's great. I think being able to reuse the existing tools will make that much smoother. So I have a slightly more tactical question. How do you map labels in your new domain to the labels in the old domain? Would you have to retrain both input transformation and output layer label, excuse me, output layer label layers? Yes, yes, yeah. So this is indeed a challenging problem. So we tried several strategies. So first we do this random random assignment between a source label to a target label. And we also do some frequency based the mapping try to map the source label that has the more response to the target label in the first place. But in images we do see some performance difference when you do this frequency mapping versus random mapping but for a time series case we do not see much difference. So, but I believe in general we need to find a more principle way to automatically map the source and target label. And so that we can maximize the performance of model reprogramming. That makes a lot of sense. Well, I know we're almost out of time. So I want to ask you a final question around the future vision for this research. Where do you see it going and how do you see it applying in real world applications? Yes, so first of all we are very optimistic about this technology, especially applying this technique to resource limited the domains with the power coming from the foundational models in other domains. But that being said we are still facing some challenges and we are some ongoing work. So I think the most important thing is how do we automate the pipeline of a model reprogramming? And ideally it should be as easy as someone will give us a task that they are going to solve. And we are going to automate the pipeline in the sense that we are going to search the best available model to do reprogramming. And then we will also try to optimize how do we maximize the modules in reprogramming like the input transformation layer or the output layer assignments that we just discussed in the automated fashion and return the optimal reprogram model to the user. So the user can use it without no worry about how to do this model or architecture selection. It's an ambitious vision but it's a really exciting one. And so with that I think let's wrap for today. It's been great spending this time with you and learning more about model reprogramming. And we'll look forward to seeing what happens next. Thanks for-


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ore you gave up the second time you said well jeez I did that well that was the whole process what was going on whenever I was smoking then I tried to give them up for five months but I didn't I thought because I'd done it the first time I could just go to Turkey and it was going to work out the second time but it was just completely different because you're still dealing with your grief and you don't have the babies as the motivator exactly you don't have anyone to put in front of yourself you just have to love and care enough about yourself to make such a sacrifice how many of us actually can say that about ourselves and also too we're going to go through the stuff that we often do but I want to sort of make a different approach in that you notice your health disimproved very very quickly and I think maybe what a lot of people don't realise is how quickly your health can bounce back how quickly climbing a set of stairs when you get to the top it's not quite as difficult as it was when you were smoking or bringing the bin up the drive or even lifting I don't think people realise lifting is something like walking up a set of stairs you lift a kid up then you put them down and you're puffing but very quickly you can bounce back from that your health does start to improve really quite quickly doesn't it well my journey was when I was offered five months I did a look for the help and I tried to struggle on it myself and it was a big issue you know because I was always that thought was there what if I do it again and you know all the kind of negativity and I tried hard on my own I had on three stone in five months you know because I was handling it properly and and then last year I had been sitting on my computer oh no I actually went to the doctor and it was constantly getting chest infections and I went to the doctor and the doctor says to me Marion you know you could have COPD had a really bad chest infection and this was in my mind but obviously the cigarettes they are telling you no giving them up you know and I sat at the computer and it was an article come up from the Sun it was in conjunction with the HSE do you want to join the group just click the button and the addiction was saying are you crazy what are you doing because obviously I didn't want to give them up I loved them that much but I pressed the button and I was like oh what have I done now I pressed that button you don't want to give them up and a million and one excuses was running through my brain about why I had done this because obviously I didn't want to give it up and so I pressed the button and the next stage was I got an email from the Sun saying oh we're going to like you join up the group and I was like oh no I've done that for a long time thanks I don't want this but then the positive part of my brain was saying look control yourself just go it's interesting you mentioned the brain because the primary function of the brain is to keep us well and to keep us alive that's what we do and a lot of that happens subconsciously we don't have any conscious control out of it and because nicotine is so addictive and the other elements of a cigarette your brain is telling you on and on to yourself that you need to keep doing this because this is how you function better you know what I mean and we have to fight that or reprogram it in some way I'm not a psychologist but that's kind of what's going on so we have to convince the brain I know you're telling me I want a ciggy but I'm telling you that we can take this thing out of our lives and then we'll both be better for it so we have to sort of work on programming that element of it as well so I want to talk about the positive as well which is all of its positive Fiona about how we can bounce back now it's difficult different for everyone some people might have to give up cigarettes because they are quite seriously ill or what have you but let's just take a so how quickly then might your body start recovering from smoking the dangers of smoking it depends on what your diagnosis is so we just focus maybe for the time being for people who are smokers they're puffing a bit right they're blowing a bit and they're getting on a wee bit you know what I mean I think that maybe probably catches a big cohort that aren't being told by the GP that if you continue so suppose the most significant factor is within 24 hours of stopping smoking carbon monoxide which is one of the poisonous chemicals in tobacco smoke has left your body so the kind of symptoms that that will give you is exactly what you've described like a bit of shortness of breath maybe a bit more tired than perhaps you would normally be maybe having a cat nap in the evening when you sat down which you never have done before and we'll often put it down to getting up a bit older that's the reason whereas in fact what we find is when people stop smoking that isn't happening so the benefit starts straight away so as I was one of the we were talking about in the office earlier on myself and Marion in relation to the benefits for any age so like I've had people in their 80s who already have diagnosis of things like COPD but their day to day symptoms can improve in smoking so it's never too late to stop because that carbon monoxide which replaces itself for where oxygen should go has gone I actually described very much like if you can imagine your body's a bit like a car engine and when we're smoking tobacco it's a bit like having dirty petrol in the car engine it's going to eventually start chugging and sluttering and just not going very well whereas when you stop smoking it's like having clean petrol in the car engine so it's going to run much much smoother compared to before and in terms of sort of things like lung capacity providing there hasn't been damage from COPD which cannot be reversed but it can be so within the first three months there can be a dramatic change in your breathing and your lung capacity and blood how your blood performs processes oxygen all that kind of stuff well that's all to do with the carbon monoxide so within 24 hours that already has started to improve things like your blood pressure can improve your cholesterol can improve so we often take high dose medications to help lower blood pressure and lower cholesterol whereas if you're a tobacco user the single most important thing that you could actually do for either of those conditions is to stop smoking alright okay we're going to talk more about this right the elephant in the room though is and well you're not going to talk about it is that a lot of people have successfully given up smoking through vaping it's different in England the NHS sort of see this as a tool we don't hear right so is that does that help or hinder what you're doing here because you know what happens is people are replacing one addiction with another right now they say the Royal College of Surgeons say it's 95% less harmful but it's still 5% equally as harmful I'm not going to get into those figures because they could be disputed Public Health England actually I'll have to double check that but I think you know more about this than me but anyway so you know why not go in get a vape cut out a lot of the stuff that's in a cigarette but you still have the habit you can still have it before your coffee why not that route which is another path of least resistance versus some of the techniques we're going to talk about so suppose we will work with anybody in relation to any adult any over teens who wants to come to the programme if they choose to use electronic cigarettes as part of their programme we will work with them with that we have to be we're an evidence based service so we have to go with what the evidence says and we know that the evidence is very strong in relation if you use the appropriate combination the ketamine placement therapy along with the appropriate behavioural support which is what we would offer then you are four times more likely to be successful at quitting so we don't need the electronic cigarettes per se the unfortunate thing and exactly as you've described about 70% of people in Ireland don't come anywhere near stop smoking services don't come anywhere near the GP will actually try to do it by themselves with very limited success and end up smoking vaping at the same time and also what we're seeing now is an increase in teenagers who have never smoked but actually have an addiction so strong to vaping that we're probably going to see programmes like this for them absolutely and nationally they're looking at that at the moment that's where we're at there is a tsunami coming down the road unfortunately and the health research board a few years ago actually did some research on exactly the cohort you've described young teenagers starting to vap and there are now five times more likely to start smoking whereas our tobacco rates for young people have been reducing since 1995 and they've now started to go up again and we have never been more sort of acutely aware in following the money do you know what I mean and what big business and big organisations do look at the tobacco companies look where now they're investing their money they're moving the money from cigarette creation into vaping and stuff and one feeds the other so you know what I mean as I say we're all acutely aware and like to call it out but that's another example okay we're going to hear more from Fiona Boyle smoking cessation officer at the HSC West and Marion Potts who's a non-smoker after we take a quick break if you have any questions for either of the two of them and I think obviously Fiona always has fantastic advice for us but Marion's been there and done that as well recently okay and is typical I'm not saying you are but you're the professional right and me and Marion were the mugs I know but you're but you know what I'm on about it's just the practical things like because you talked about the weight gain as well you know that's not because that's also a health it has a health impact so we're starting to smoke but we're replacing it with something else okay so we'll have more from Marion and Fiona but we're going to take this quick break stay right where you are and get your loan transferred directly to your current account check out these special offers at Simpsons supermarket Glencar Letter Kenny there's walkers chasing onion 12 pack 1 euro 50 air and brew 8 pack cans 2 euro 50 chicagotown take away pizzas 4 euro 50 rooster tank hei chi potatoes 4 euro 50 and there's odlems pancake mix only 1 euro while there check out Peggy's kitchen coffee for great food tea and coffee only 2 minutes from Letter Kenny hospital Simpsons supermarket Glencar Letter Kenny read value every day if you're having any hearing difficulties at Donegal Hearing Clinic we can help if your hearing loss is slight but you want to look into it or it's got to the point where you have no other 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website and social media OK now we're in the company of Fiona Boyle smoking cessation advisor at the HSC Marion Potts former smokers gave them up for a second time and is all the better for it and we're focusing on what we can do and the positives that come from that. OK let's take in Frank though in the conversation. Hi Frank Good morning Greg, morning Fiona Fiona's listening to you go ahead Frank Yeah I started smoking at age 12 and I don't know long Fiona was in that job but she wasn't that long when I went to her I was in my late 50s probably early 60s and with her help I give up the cigarettes and my life today because of her and now 76 and it's a brilliant service How did your health and life change once you gave them up Frank? When I came the cops that I had disappeared I was able to walk by K things I couldn't do was able to do And what age did you give them up 56 did you say? I was later than that it must have been few people could tell you that Well anyway listen come here we're not drilled down to my point my point is this though for you to get to a position in your health where you began to be able to walk 5 kilometres that you were able to get rid of that tickly cough and it's going to be different for different people but there's a great bit of hope in that that you know that later on in life that you could see the differences that you actually got out walking stuff that you couldn't do before what we might reserve for maybe 25 30 year olds Frank it's very positive I think that that kind of change had you had you had that kind of change and still active and put a year after I give them up I put the money that I was spending on cigarettes aside and I bought a boat 12 months later what kind of boat? what kind was it a week have on it? No no no a pond? I like boats Frank I want to talk about boats now it's an inflatable or fantastic excellent brilliant so you were able to deliver that to yourself with all that money you say brilliant Frank lovely story and I think the key thing that came from your comment is that you believe that you're around today and healthy and active because of your initial engagement with Fiona and the sport that you received and I think that's a beautiful message Frank to end the call on thanks Frank and thank you very much bye bye and this is an absolute clarity in that Fiona absolutely and I think I remember him now that he recognises that he's where he's at now because of the supports and I suppose that's something just great in relation to that often the fear of engaging with us is what will prevent a lot of people from actually joining the service it's the same thing why we won't go into a GP and get our bloods tested because we think something's going to come from it not that's not good but again it's the brain tricking us to some extent outside of our full control so Fiona I'm ready right so I want to engage in your services so talk to me about how okay so the initial so you can refer yourself into the service or you can get a health professional to refer you in so ordinarily what we would do is we do an assessment on you so we get some your past medical history have you got any physical issues related to your tobacco use we would check your psychiatric history as well in relation to mental health because that can have an influence on some of the medication that we might use we would also do what we call a decisional balance so we would actually ask those questions so what is it that you currently enjoy about smoking because often people will say there is some elements that I might enjoy often as well we have lots of clients who they've never asked themselves that question they just presumably enjoy because they've done it for so long so we ask them what they enjoy what don't you enjoy so what is it that's driving you know to think about stopping smoking then we look at what are those concerns that you might have such as three stone and weight that's a huge concern for a lot of people even before they think about stopping smoking but also what are you hoping to get out of it so we need to make sure that we're going to be realistic so if somebody's got really bad COPD and they're expecting to run the double city then obviously that's another expectation. Can I chuck another cohort in there if you don't mind people who went to the doctor worried there was something wrong with them they're smokers and the doctor has given them a clean bit of health now is the time you're in a perfect position to go from there you know often we use the trigger of bad news the doctors just says you know your bloods are pretty good you're a bit low on vitamin D but we can sort that out lung capacity not too bad. Give them up now you've got it you know what I mean you can pretty much really really help to maintain at least that if not improve so rather than us being get a health scare and stop smoking get some good health news and stop smoking. So we would have done in fact over the last two to three weeks we would have actually done some meetings with the GPs in the evenings for their clinical medical education meetings where like that we're advertising the fact that there is free nicotine replacement therapy now for anybody who joins the service whether you've got a medical care or not but also that whole brief intervention piece so it's having those conversations with their patients whether or not there's a condition happening or whether or not there's a potential for a condition to happen and GPs are very positive towards our service as well so if you have that conversation with the GP the GP can either refer you on themselves or they might give you a business card for us or contact us yourself. Right so you've asked me the questions legitimate questions too for the best of my care in terms of physical health currently mental health history and what have you then what happens? So we would look at then how ready are you to do this? I'm ready to go. Okay so the three questions I will specifically ask you is how important is it for you right now to do it? Have you got any other competing priorities? So if there's a lot of stuff going on in your life now may not be the best time and how confident are you in your own ability to be able to do it. If your confidence is low which it often is then we might do some work on the confidence side of it first of all. So in other words I go look at I think with everything that's going on the cost of living I think if I try to do this now I'm going to be banned Jacks you don't say right good luck come back you will say right well what can we do then to get you into a better place. So this whole services client centered Greg it has been from the get go way back in 2004 so it's very much about having the conversation as to where the client is at and then trying to support them to move along. The one thing that we are specific with the client is that at some stage there will be a quit day. So it's moving towards that quit day. It doesn't have to be that day. In fact from our perspective it's often better if it's not that day because we won't have done the preparation work with the client. So it's very much about keeping the client centered working out what it is that's the obstacles in their lives, what are the dilemmas, what are the triggers that they normally go through and actually getting them to try and deal with those triggers even prior to stop and smoking and maybe in conjunction with some of the nicotine therapy as well depending on the individual. Started smoking at age 12, gave them up at 57. Thank you Fiona, without your help I probably would not be here today. I'm now 76. I wonder is that Frank? In terms of his statistic yet? It is, I don't think it is anyway. Re-giving up smoking I've been trying for years and still trying now using patches and steer clear of anyone smoking. It's like shock to my blood. Oh right, I'm like a shock to blood okay. My question is I can't stop using the patches soon as I'm two days off the patches. I need nicotine. I can get more patches but they take a good 8 to 10 hours before they start working. Are the patches safe long term? So this is someone doing it by themselves and they have an absolute dependence on the patches. Please call us, first of all. In relation to the patches, any of the treatments that people use for stop and smoking, we would encourage them to use them for 12 weeks. So you would be on the high strength patch for the first 8 weeks, then you're going to a medium strength patch for 2 and a lower strength. It sounds to me like that person is trying to fix the roof on a house where the walls need a bit of protection first. And no matter what they do, it's always they're going to keep going around in circles. That's why you so listener, please, you seem to be really keen to do it. You want to do it. Get on the phone to Fiona and the team and they will offer you the supports that aren't there at the moment to help you through this whole thing. That's what you're there for yeah. And I want to be speaking to this lady or gentleman in 20 years time saying well, we had that I made that call and now look where I'm at. Right. Okay, go ahead. I think just Greg in relation to that as well. So often whenever people are thinking about stopping smoking, they look at the addiction side of it and they might use negative implicit therapy. They often don't use anywhere near enough of it. But the other two aspects of tobacco addiction that we would very much hone in on is the behavioural aspect of it. So the habits that we've created over the years on our addiction, but also the emotional attachment. So most of us would have been teenagers when we started smoking. And at that stage, we were learning how to deal with life. And often if we smoked or vape, that's what we do instead. So it's about supporting them to develop new skills that they can actually utilise at those times when they might be stressed, they might be anxious, they might be celebrating. So it could be positive emotions as well.  So you're surrounding yourselves with a support system. Exactly. You know, before you head on to adult life and cigarettes can form part of that. So it's ingrained and your brain again is saying no, we need that because that was bugged us when we were teenagers. How did you deal, Marion, with the habit stuff? You talked about first thing in the morning, a ciggy, cup of coffee, even the whole process that you went through in terms of making the cigarette. Do you know what I mean? There's a routine there. I'm sure you probably do it on the clock all the time. So how did you break that? Or did the easing off the addiction help in that regard or what? Well, I did. I used I initially had used the patches and you know, they were fine, but I actually found the nicorette spray which is instant on your tongue or the side of your cheek gave me that quick hit. So it got you through that? Oh yeah, definitely. Little period of pressure. Okay. 100%. And also, you get the chewing gum as well. So there's variations what you can do. You know, I started off in the batches and it was the nicorette and a wee piece of chewing gum and I can honestly say in the past year, I've never craved a cigarette. I think it's really important that you attend the group sessions is fantastic because as Fiona says, you don't need to give them up, you know, joining the group therapy but because you're doing it in a group with other folk, it's fantastic the support of other people. Because what we do without that. What we do, Marion, we announce that we're going to give up cigarettes and we tell everyone around us and then instantly put the pressure on because the worst thing could happen is that you're seen as a failure amongst the people you care about. Do you know what I mean?  I actually think I can do this. Other people are empowering you with that information. You're not committed to actually right, you have to give up this now in this state. So you can go in for a few weeks and you're sitting with other folk and you're feeling their pain. You can see their nervousness about you going the same journey as you and even that psychologically known that there's other people with you on this journey. That helps a long way.  The health side of it's fine but I want to get to the sort of like, so in other words even visiting right, you don't have to worry about visiting someone if this is an unsmoking house if it's a long car journey, if it's a flight ferry you know what I mean you don't have the, I don't think people who don't smoke realise how smoking affects an awful lot of what you do even going in for lunch you go Christ, an hour? Every minute of the day you're looking, if you're in the airport you're looking to go out at the front door to have a cigarette how am I going to cope on this flight for two hours you know it just takes over your brain it's a nightmare I'm totally free now I don't have that at all actually even in a year it's totally faded that I'm forgetting already you know how controlling it was and is it intertwined too with your life experience too in what you were coping with, that great last that unfortunately as we get older we encounter it unless it's us that goes but has that helped in that process as well has it been, have you connected it with your grieving process at all or is it something separate for you oh I definitely it's been through the grief but the problem is you take on the cigarettes you get over the grief and you're left with the addiction which is crazy can you help someone who becomes angry when they stop smoking and are always looking for a route I live with someone like that there's a lot going on there isn't there this is, you're not speaking here now to the person who gets angry you're speaking to the poor unfortunate that has to be enjoyed this person dreads I would say when the other half says I'm going to give up the sigs you know so the anger thing do we use that as an excuse for something as well sometimes as well not to do it I don't know well it's certainly a natural withdrawal so whenever your body is to so nicotine's got a half life of two hours so essentially when you have a cigarette most people will have another cigarette within the next two hours because their levels are going low when you decide to stop smoking obviously your levels are going to go low low depends if you're using the right treatment then you should keep them more comfortable where you're less likely to have those anger issues but if you're not using the treatment properly if you're not using treatment at all you will go into withdrawals quickly so those withdrawals will only last a short time but it's about how to deal with them so nicotine replacement therapy can certainly help there but also that's that whole emotional piece that we talked about do you give me exercises that people can employ all of that absolutely so as it was the anger tends to last for a couple of minutes but we tend to spout off about it I'll take the fifth amendment on that one oh I was totally a passive so come here what I would say again if that person wants to speak to ourselves but also what I would go back is to look at why are they stopping in the first place so are they stopping because they're getting a bit of grief from at home so are they stopping because they feel they have to rather than they want to to what that person might do and if it's the partner you need to actually go on the journey with them because they'll benefit in the long run and say right come here I'm going to work with you whilst you work with the smoke and cessation team and working through those little spells at the same time I think people struggle on their own and that itself would make you more maybe angry or anxious or whatever you don't understand me equip yourself with the tools which I had done this time in the past it really does help because I feel like that I was just going to say that a lot of people don't realise is when we smoke we use deep breathing and time out a lot and that's one of the things that often people when we stop smoking we forget to do so if somebody who smokes 20 times a day that means they're taking anywhere between 200 and 400 deep breaths just to smoke and then they decide I'm stopping smoking but yet they're not doing the deep breathing but yet we know that's the bit that actually is the relaxing part it's simple but it's complex in a way right so then the carbon monoxide level will stop dropping really quickly when do we get over the hump of the worst we're talking averages here when do we get over the hump of the worst cravings through the process with you so generally speaking the withdrawals last for about 4 to 6 weeks in general so withdrawals when we're talking about there are things like mood changes identified anger so it could be bad moods low moods irritability easily annoyed anxiety or restlessness can often be a trigger as well or withdrawal things like constipation can be a trigger coughs can be withdrawal and then the most common withdrawal is cravings and the coughs one's interesting because I know a number of people that said I tried stopping smoking and my cough got worse so they started smoking again and that can be the case so if we think about it I try to explain things simply great because that's how I understand them you've also met me before so if we think about in relation to smoking so when we're smoking a cigarette especially if we do it for a long period of time there are 7000 chemicals coming into our body every time we take a drag of a cigarette so it's almost like they're compounding down when we stop smoking all of a sudden the body and all the different senses get a chance to actually we're cleaning the chimney really to an extent yes so it actually gets a chance to relieve itself so in fact the cough is actually a good sign that your body is actually trying to repair itself providing it's not infected obviously if it's infected it needs to get looked at but generally speaking allow the cough to be there and stuff's better out than in so see as a positive byproduct of what you're doing because your body's it's trying to recover so just going back to your question first 4-6 weeks is roughly when the withdrawal will be there obviously depending on what's going on in your life can have a factor there they tend to last longer than that are things like the sleep issues that some people might have and also the constipation they tend to last longer but the cravings if you're equipped with the tools as to how to deal with it which is certainly a lot of what we would discuss in the clinic they tend to last much shorter and if you change your diet a little bit or do a bit of exercise maybe you can't have come to sleep being the constipation side of things say for example right okay how do people get in contact so we've just developed a new website so stop smoking doneigall at hse.ae live from this week also my own phone number is<PHONE_NUMBER> which will retain perfect and then we just let you know we have three other stop smoking practitioners throughout the county so we've got Sarah Thompson up on a show and we've got Don Hannah in sort of East and South Donegal and then we have got Kara Curt over the west given a go folks there's a bit of negativity here but the positivity of this would far outstrip the difficult time I would hope for most of you out there you are far more likely to quit smoking with the smoke and cessation advisor ringing the phone line or accessing the website does not mean that that moment you have to stop smoking a process begins and there's a professional team that knows what works and they will work with you and support you tool you up equip you with the patches or whatever you might need but also tips on how you deal with the inevitabilities of giving them smoking in terms of moods and what have you right okay yes go ahead who sorry Keir so there's free nicotine replacement therapy available for everybody now so even if you don't have a medical card which we can get your free medication through there as well then that's great also we have two we work with the initial development partnership and also the DLDC and we're running some group programs as well it's called we can quit and it's like as you described there Marion it's very much that camaraderie piece as well so you can access a group program or you can access a face-to-face one-to-one service and could I just present Marion with her one-year certificate for having done so well thank you she was a year of quit yesterday let's have a look that's actually quite fancy I wonder maybe you got special treatment with the frame I'm not sure everybody gets the certificate but yes you do but look at Marion I'm delighted to hear the things are going so well for you particularly with everything that you've been through and that now you're in your second phase third phase really is a non-smoker and you really feel powerful and strong in it don't you which is wonderful and great to hear that your health is improving as well Fiona lots of people listening and they've been texting and you've really genuinely made a difference in their lives which I think is a gift for you to have but also to receive that from people alright let's do it thanks so much for calling in thanks very much Briggs more after the break watch the show live now on youtube facebook and at highlandradio.com every time you spend 25 euro in Aldi help fill your local primary schools poster for a chance to win 50,000 euro to upgrade the schools playing facilities and scan your sticker 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Facebook and Instagram there's never been a better time to go full lethal let's hear it from our customers it's great value for money there has a big family they should be shopping in little but they'll be they'll have a holiday at the end of the year go on, go full lethal today Highland Radio Weather Updates with Ireland West Airport Salah, Nunes, The Beatles you can now fly to Liverpool 8 times a week with Ryanair this summer Ireland West Airport, don't just take off, take it easy OK, cold and breezy with sunshine and scattered blustery showers some of the showers will be heavy with hail and isolated thunderstorms tempered around 6 to 8 degrees now, text us just yes if you following on from our last conversation feeling powered to give up smoking we're not looking for you to come on in necessarily but just text us yes if you feel that that last piece has given you that final push that you needed Cairn O'Donnell is in with us now to talk about the podcast but first we'll get some news and I think this was discussed on the show we don't eat Thursday or Friday last week I wasn't here so I missed it The Milford Town Plan Cairn Yes indeed Greg, Donegal County Council has appointed GM Design Associates to prepare a town centre first plan for Milford so this project is being funded through the town and village renewal fund programme which is part of the consultation process that I think began last week and runs until Thursday March 9 the public is invited to come along to an open drop-on event today between 3pm and 8pm at the Milford Public Services Centre It's your turn, your future get in there very much Leo Webinar coming up The first steps to export success webinar will take place on Monday March 6 this online event is aimed at businesses that are considering to enter national markets or who are early stage exporters The webinar has been organised by the local enterprise offices and in conjunction with Enterprise Ireland and Bore Bia and will be hosted by the presenter of RT's The Business Richard Curran so just check out Leo's socials for more on that Greg Alright, so okay inflation remains a concern Cairn? Yes, Irish consumers sentiment is only up but inflation remains a key concern and that is according to a new survey by Deloitte The findings show that 76% of Irish respondents are concerned that the prices of everyday purchases will go up and while that's down 2% the last month it remains the highest of all 24 countries Yeah, indeed and yet we have the strongest economy in inverted commas in Europe That's a strange sort of a balance and we have a prediction of 3% interest before the end of the year but I always it amuses me and not in a good way when they talk of a fall in inflation let's say from 9 to 7% as if this is good news but prices are still going up 7% instead of 9, you know what I mean It's not been fact done Yeah, we're in an inflationary economy Building Better Business Event taking place soon Yeah, the keynote address at the Building Better Business event in the Northwest is taking place on Friday March the 3rd at Donegal ATU will be delivered by the Minister for Enterprise Trade and Employment Simon Coveney is the first in a series of free events for businesses that will highlight the opportunities and challenges presented by digital transformation and decarbonisation He was on the show last week missed the opportunity to have a chat with him There's quite a lot of events happening in the Northwest, Greg It's good to see it Right, okay, slow down in House Price Grouf I'm glad you hear the bottom of that I'll just read below The annual rate of increase in house prices fell to 7.8% in December, that's according to the Central Statistics Office's latest residential property price index This was done from 8.5% in November and from a height of 15.1% in March 2022 That's a massive increase in just under a year or massive decrease I should say And yet the latest prices for households show a medium or a middle price of £305,000 for a home in 12 months to December So the highest price, Greg, was £430,000 in Dublin and the lowest was £152,000 in Longford And just like the inflation figures whilst we're talking about a drop in house prices We're not actually talking about a drop in house prices and you made this very clear We're talking about a reduction in the increase in house prices so someone looking to purchase a house Yes, it's not at 15.1% of buying a house is going to increase by 7.8% a year on year which is massive because between approval for a mortgage and actual purchase, you're wondering where am I going to get this shortfall here And also in places like Donegal I don't know if there's much property changing hands I want to get a real sense of what's going on here All interesting news as ever Right, OK, what's this week's podcast all about, Ciaran? Yeah, it's keeping with the building thing, Greg On this week's Business Matters, I am joined by the director of Build Cost, Liam Langen Liam established the Quantity Surveying Practice with former work colleague Jason Tully in 2012 The company opened the second of us in Lauderdakini last year and currently employs 22 people Build Cost has recently secured contracts in the UK and is planning to have a bigger presence there in 2023 During our conversation, I asked Liam what the best lesson was that he'd learned and business? I've learned a lot of lessons some the hard way but I think probably the best lesson really is to surround yourself with a very, very good team I suppose I'm lucky, it starts with your parents your big influence on you, they're very supportive when I was going through college and when I went to Dublin Forest very fortunate then with the business partner Jason we interact very well together doesn't mean we don't challenge each other as well because I think you have to have that but look, we've worked really, really well together before Build Cost, and that's still true I suppose then when I got married to my wife Anne she's been a real rocker support as well and then looked at the team that we have so I think probably the team and then maybe second of all it's just to have an open mind as well because things do change and you might not always have the best idea yourself so seek help from people that are better place to give you that advice and another business employing, growing and the general population may not be aware what they're doing, so that's another advantage of your podcast Kieran Liam himself and a former work colleague decided to sort of go on their own 11 years ago Greg it was a two person team but that has grown now to a team of 22 and it looks like expanding a game maybe this year they've worked on local projects they've worked on national projects and they're as well starting to dip their toe into the UK market so a great success story and the fact that they've opened the office in Lower Kenne last year shows that they're coming back home as a native of Don Fanny so he's coming back there's roots here in Donegal as well in terms of business interest and just to remind listeners there's a huge bank of Business Matters podcasts available for you to listen to at your leisure, how many is it now Kieran one, three, two, Liam is three and as I say it's not like the news necessarily whereby we're on about what's happening today these podcasts are timeless for the most part you get a fantastic insight into how businesses are run, how they're established, the challenges, there's a lot of crossover and it's interesting like programs like Dragon's Den and Shark Tank in America and Canada, a lot of people who start in businesses watch those shows because they get tips about the mistakes people make, the things you need to get right and here we have a resource for anyone in business who are looking to start a business of the best business brains across the Northwest, they talk about their failures, they talk about their successes and they talk about their challenges a fantastic resource for anyone interested in business but also it is a conversation about people and the people of our community and our region and how they're doing for themselves so there's something for everyone in the Business Matters podcast, the latest episode as you've just heard is available for you right now on our website highlandradio.com in the listen back section and also available for you on Spotify and iTunes a lot of people also would listen to it as a schedule, show on a Sunday Kieran after the 6 o'clock news Greg on so leaving and if anyone wants to get in contact with you any feedback, any suggestions in terms of content and what have you, maybe they think they want to come on the show or whatever, how did they get in touch with you just drop me an email please Greg businessmatters at highlandradio.com Kieran listen I look forward to chatting to you next week thanks so much for joining us it's been a pleasure as always ok it's pretty much the end of the show for today quick comment here today here you're right Greg Arland is training soldiers to fight in Ukraine so we could presume that the protesters are partly correct when they say there's been an increase in mostly young military men disguised as refugees but possibly foreign mercenaries here training to fight in Ukraine Arland is no longer neutral then they're not training here a lot of the young unvetted males I've never been vetted myself either there's a mix there because there's undocumented there's those ripping up the passports there are those that are coming over to try and make a better life for themselves and their families and come on their own it's a complex one we don't have time to get into it today we're back with you tomorrow morning at 9 any comments or calls we didn't get to we'll get


This is the VOA Special English Agriculture Report. This June in Brazil, delegates will mark the 20th anniversary of what is commonly known as the Earth Summit. The United Nations Conference on Environment and Development took place in Rio de Janeiro in 1992. One of the issues that the delegates plan to discuss in June at Rio Plus 20 is the role of agriculture in climate change. A recent article written by a team of scientists says agriculture should be a top priority in climate change negotiations. It says there was some progress in this area but not much at the United Nations Climate Conference in December in Durban, South Africa. The article What Next for Agriculture After Durban appeared in the journal Science. Britain's Chief Scientific Advisor, Sir John Bennington, led the international team that wrote it to try to influence policymakers. Molly John from the University of Wisconsin, Madison, was one of those authors. She says efforts to guarantee food security are falling short in significant ways that have come to our attention, especially recently, with the significant price shocks. Prices on the world market have remained high since the food crisis of 2007 and 2008. Professor John says agriculture is a major producer of greenhouse gases blamed for trapping heat in the atmosphere. But agriculture also offers ways to lessen their effects with known and proven farming practices.  But agriculture also represents an opportunity to better manage meeting our needs while we reduce the emissions of various greenhouse gases that are accumulating in the atmosphere. Professor John says moving toward climate smart agriculture should be at the center of policy considerations. The scientists call for reducing the huge amount of food that gets wasted or goes bad before it can be eaten. Another recommendation is to plant more crops that put less pressure on the environment. The article says the integration of agriculture in the climate change negotiating process has been moving slowly. At the same time, climate change and population growth have been moving much faster. The article calls on scientists to play a bigger part in the issue by making sure climate change negotiators have clear data available. Such information, they say, could help increase investment in agriculture. For VOA Special English, I'm Carolyn Presuti.


Hi, we're Norman and Carol Smith. We just purchased our new Dodge Pacifica from Patsy and it's a beautiful car and we can't hardly wait to get using it.