Box 13 with the star of Paramount Pictures, Alan Ladd, as Dan Holliday. Take a letter, Miss Jordan. To Box 13, care of the star times. I need your help. I dare not go to the police for reasons I'll explain when you see me. Please come to my office and the security building. Sign Douglas McIntosh. Not much of a letter, but then, as the proverb says, great oaks from little acorns grow. And before this was over, the acorn grew into a large, large oak. And now, back to Box 13 and Dan Holliday's newest adventure, Three to Die. Douglas McIntosh. That's a Scotch name, isn't it? Ah, you can smell the heather, Susie. Wonder what he wants. Well, if this man is the same McIntosh I looked up, he's building that new tunnel under the river. Gee, maybe he wants you to be a hedgehog. No, Susie. They're called sandhogs. Oh, what will they think of next? Well, I think I'll see what Mr. McIntosh has on his mind. I'll be at the security building, Susie. Security building? Ha! It was the only security I was to know until the whole thing was over. Anyway, I went to McIntosh's office. I was shown right into an oversized man who looked as big as the Washington Monument and Tweets. He didn't waste much time. Yes, I'm the man. All right. You call me Mc. What's your name? Holliday. Dan Holliday. All right. Now, Dan, I am in trouble. Trouble gets around. Fast. But look here, and I'll tell you quick. I'm a contractor. I bid on this new tunnel. Got the bid and posted my bond to finish the tunnel on time. So far, everything's clear. But now? Dan, I'm not going to finish in time. Oh, why not? Now we get to the point. And a sharp point. You say you're running into trouble? Hey, sabotage. Why don't you call the police? Hey, Catman. It may be publicity. Unfavorable. Hey, hey, can't risk it. Oh, then what's my problem? Find out who's doing this to me. You suspect someone of doing it? Oh, look, man. Accidents like we've been having don't just happen. They're made. Broken air hoses, emery in the compresses, hundreds of delays, little things that add up to hours. Oh, I see. Another thing. So far, the men working for me think these things are accidents. But the moment they suspect somebody's doing the dirty work in that tunnel, they'd walk out. Sandhuggan's dangerous enough itself. In short, somebody's trying to ruin you. Exactly. It would ruin me. The contract would go to someone else. They'd not get another contract for years. But what can I do? I'm not a detective. You see, I beg your pardon, Mr. McIntosh, but... Can't you see? I'm busy. What do you want? Telegram. I thought you ought to see it right away. All right, read it. Oh, it's all right. You can talk in front of him. Dan, this is Fred Harris, construction engineer. Harris, Dan Holliday. Now, what about that wire? The last shipment of concrete we ordered was derailed, about 200 miles from here. What? Well, don't just stand there, get every truck out of the road. Get that concrete here. You ought to have enough sense to think of that without coming to me first.  Yes, sir. You see what I mean, Dan? Another delay. Who's this Harris? He thinks he's gonna be my son-in-law. Also, he thinks an engineer in degree makes him a great man, that it takes the place of 15 years of experience. That's an argument I'd rather watch from the sidelines. But go on with your story. Well, we have to finish in three weeks or I'll forfeit my contract. McIntosh told me everything he knew. It wasn't much. Only that whoever was doing the dirty work, causing accidents, delays, was working in the tunnel. So we went to the tunnel. But first, before I was taken down into the workings, I was given khaki coveralls and a fiber helmet and a little metal tag to hang around my neck. Mc explained the tag. Every sandhog gets one of those. It's got his own number on it. What's it for? Every here a case on disease. The bends? On one side of the tag, there's a case on worker working under pressure. So if the disease hits him on the surface, he can be given proper treatment? That's it. There are six places in the city where that can be treated. The man is put into a chamber, pressure increased, then gradually decreased. Like a diver. If he comes up too fast, the nitrogen in his blood is forced into his tissues, causes pain. And sometimes worse. You seem to know a lot about it then. I'm a writer. A writer has to know a little about everything. Then I hope you'll be able to tell me more about what's going on down there. All right, ready? I'm ready. Let's go. Together, Mc and I rode one of the hoist down into the workings. My ears began to pop from the pressure. I swallowed hard to keep them open. Then we came to the bottom of the shaft, about 150 feet below the surface of the ground. Mc looked around for a minute and then... Angus! Angus! Here! Come here! A short, powerfully built man walked over to us. He was grinning as he said to Mc. Ah! What brings the boss into the tunnel? Angus, meet a friend of mine, Dan Halliday. Dan Angus Campbell, my foreman. Best man in the world in his line. I, the best, beside yourself. Who do you do, Dan? How are you, Angus? First rate. Except we had another little rumpus today, Mc. What? Another break in the air hose at the shield. The hose whipped around. Anybody hurt? I, Phil Evans, hose cut him right in the middle. He's done for this job. Won't work for a month. Broken ribs. Another one. You're visiting us here, Dan? Well, you might call it that. Dan's are later doing a story on sand-hugging. Once atmosphere. You'll get it here. You want to see the works? Show them around, Angus, and be careful of them. Don't you worry, Mc. Good. I'll go back to the office now. Come back there when you finish, Dan. Oh, sure. It's got him worried, Dan. A little wonder. Every penny he stands to lose. Every penny. That bad, huh? Worse. And if I ever catch the one that's doing a child whip him around with me bare hands. You and Max seem to be good friends, huh? I started together 30 years ago in Scotland. Well, time's fleeting. Want to show me around? Sure. Let's get going. I followed Angus into a big airlock. It was a reinforced concrete compound with double-steel doors. As one door closed behind us, the pressure was built up to equal that in a tunnel. It built gradually. But I knew what would happen if it went down fast. Case on disease. A terrible, racking pain. Brother, I had a lot of respect for the men who worked down there day after day, taking risks, big chances every time they descended into the workings. Then he opened another steel door and Angus and I were in the tunnel itself. As soon as my ears became used to the noise, Angus guided me to a small flat car. We got on and rolled down narrow gauge tracks to the centre of the tunnel. If you can hear me, this car runs down by gravity. But a handbrake on it to slow it or stop. There's a motor for running back up. It saves time on a job like this. How long is this tunnel? This says about a half-mile long now. This side. It started on the other bank of the river the same time we did. Do you have any trouble over there? No, only on this side. But we're keeping up with them. I'll keep driving until this thing's finished. Accidents are no accidents. How much time have you got? Three weeks. Think you'll make it? We've got to or Max stands to lose every next. Look, there's the end of the track. I looked ahead. A tremendous scaffold rose into the air. Men covered it like ants. Working with pneumatic drills, shovels, wheelbarrows. Dump trucks ran back and forth filled with the mud and shale dug out of the wall of earth that lay ahead. I looked up and I felt a little funny when I realised that right over my head was the river and lots of clean fresh air. While down here was nothing but the deafening noise of the hammers and the thought that death worked right next to every one of these men. Angus noticed me gazing up at the scaffold. First time you ever saw nothing like this, eh? Yes, yes. What holds all that mud back? That shield and compressed air. Air? Just air holding back the river? Ha-ha! You see compressed air here in the tunnel is built up to a pressure equal to the pressure that's shoving down from above. Oh, in other words, if the pressure outside this tunnel is well, 45 pounds per square inch, that's the pressure in here. Right. This may not be a good question, but what happens if the pressure in here gets less? We'd be crushed to jelly. Eh, nice thought. That's not all. There's always the danger of a blowout. What's that? Sometimes we hit a weak spot in the riverbed. The bed won't take all the pressure we've got in here. And you get a blowout, like a tire blowing out. Aye, the men, machinery, equipment all blown to the surface of the river and into the air. Has that ever happened? Aye. And once, only once, a man loved to tell about it. Angus, I take off my hat to you boys down here. A million people drive through tunnels every day, yet maybe not one in a hundred stops to think how the tunnel was built. And what it cost? Not only in money, but in injury, in death. Well, when a man takes the sandhog and he takes to the dangers too, wouldn't he? Only what? We've only got the half crew working today. Oh, why? Two men have been killed. Nobody wants to be the third. Superstition? Maybe. But what's the ministry in whom, until the thirds? Well, what I said. Angus showed me the whole thing. Oh, there were a million ways in which someone could sabotage the works. Breaking air holes, tampering the contrast, air gauges, lots of ways. Then later, Angus took me to a complicated affair. It was like an elevator cage. In fact, it was an elevator. Angus explained. This is the lightest thing. Combination elevator and decompression chamber. Up and we'll go back up. We go up slow, Dan. As we go up, the pressure in here is decreased until it's equal to that of the surface. Oh, then there's no danger of case on disease. Not if we go up slow enough. And the pressure's reduced. I set the gauges to do it for us. Oh, I see. Well, did you see enough to write your story? No. No, I don't think I have. Not yet. You didn't see anything, Dan? Of course not, Mac. How could I? I was hoping you might get an idea. Yeah, but I didn't. You're going back again? What could I find? Try it, try it, man. Oh, but I don't think I could find an idea. Yeah, you advertised adventure. You couldn't get it in a better place. Yes, yes, I know, but how could I explain myself down there? Well, later, use your imagination, man. Well, suppose... suppose I went back there as a worker. As a sandhog, you mean? Mm-hmm, that's it. But you don't know anything about it. I can handle a hammer, a shovel, I think. You'd get dirty and tired. Every muscle in your body would hollow out loud at you. Well, I can always say I'm doing it for my art. Be a sandhog, see how it feels, then write about it. Harry, man, you got it. All right, then.  Oh, that was the way to do it. Well, when I got home that evening, I thought about it. That huge scaffold.  What, uh, what if that pressure failed? What if they had a weak spot in the river bed and there was a blowout? The more I thought about it, the more inclined I was to... Yes? Telegram. Oh, shove it under the door, will you? Oh-ho. And what a telegram. It read, save for the fact that I don't want more bloodshed. You'd have gotten yours today. Stay away from the tunnel.  And now back to three to die, another Box 13 adventure with Alan Land as Dan Holliday. I'll act the telegram the next day and what he said filled the air with dark blue color for ten minutes. Then we can check to see who sent this. No dice, Mac, I did. And? It was sent from a pay phone booth. I guess you'll be changing your mind about the job now, eh? Oh, it makes you say that. Well, he's after you, whoever it is. Yes, I know. You can back out if you want to. And what would you think if I did? Does that make a difference? There are a lot of men in that tunnel who stand to lose their lives. Mac, you've got to get the policing. Hey, cat, man, I can't. The publicity would ruin me. All right, fix it up for me to work down there and we'll see what happens. Okay, so I became a sand hog. For three days I used muscles that thought they'd gone on a permanent vacation. Well, I woke them up and they woke me up in the middle of the night, aching. Then one day in the tunnel I was talking with one of the sand hogs. You know, Dan, you've done pretty well. Considering you knew it, this... Oh, I ain't, Joe, I ain't all over. Yeah, you'll get used to it. I don't think so. But, Joe, tell me something. Sure, what? What about these accidents down here? Ah, them. What about them? Well, maybe they just parted the job. What do you think? Some of them went just like accidents, that's all.  Two guys been killed. Now what? Look out! Yeah, okay, you?  That car would've clipped you in half. Yeah. Look. Look, who's that? Where? Just going into the decompression chamber. Huh? Look. Harris? Yeah. Yeah, Harris. Oh. See what I mean? That car didn't look like no accident. Thanks, Joe. And this is one time I can honestly say I was glad I was shoved. That's okay. You know something? You were almost as safe to die. Before leaving the tunnel, I ran down to the spot where that car had hit the stop bump at the end of the track. It was wrecked. But in the wreckage, I found something. One of the tags, like the one I had. This one had the number 57 on it. And it slipped into my pocket. Maybe one of these sand dogs had dropped it. Then, just as I was about to step into the decompression chamber, Angus Campbell came up to me and... Your ship's going off, Don? Yeah, I'm finished for the day. Almost in more ways than one. Huh? What do you mean? Come on, let's get in. I want to get back up. All right. Tired? I'm worried. I can guess why. Huh? Look, I know you're no right in a story on the sandhugging. I know why you're down here. Oh, you do? Oh, Max's desperate. I want him to call the police, but he won't. How did you find out about me? You've been nosing around, then? Not obvious, son. Aye, but be careful, lad. Be careful. Yeah, I will be. Joe told me about the car that almost got you. Somebody sent it down the tracks. Aye. Angus. Aye. You've been with Max a long time. Thirty years. Thirty years. Good ones, bad ones. And yet you stay with the job. I could have a dog job on the surface. I see. Angus, got any idea who's doing all this? No. Harris? Huh? Why, him? Max doesn't like you. Ah, Doc, sit, Stan. What point in Harris' ruin is his own feathering and law? Father in law to be, Angus. Still no point? Then how about the protection insurance to cover the completion bond? Eh? You mean Max might be doing this himself to get the insurance? Yeah, this could be. No, no, lad. The insurance wouldn't half cover the loss. No, let's know it. And why? I wish I knew. Competitous, do you think? Who are they? Brilliant company. But no, they wouldn't. They'd be too easy to find out. Men got a habit to talk it. And talk it's around. No, Dan, let's know them. Then who and why? Why did someone try to kill me today? You get the answers to those things, Dan, and you'll have the whole thing. Well, open up at the top. I'll walk to the shack with you. No, I'm going back soon. But I thought you were through for the day. I've still got lots to do. See you tomorrow. What Angus said made sense. Couldn't be Max's competitors, because I checked. They'd been in business a long time, had plenty of money behind them. Had gotten a bid for another job upstate. And Harris? Eh, didn't make sense either. If he was going to be Max's son-in-law, just didn't watch that he'd be sabotaging Max. So I changed clothes, thought a lot, and then went home. Went out to get some dinner when... when it hit me. First, a twinge, and sudden cramps that made me bend over as if someone had folded me inward with a baseball bat. The buildings started to spin, twist, and it got all nice and dark. You're all right now. I... I know this isn't very original, but where am I? Take a deep breath. That's it. Do you feel better? Lots. What happened? Couldn't have been anything I ate, I... You had the bends. The bends? The tag around your neck tipped us off you were suffering from case on disease. So we put you in the chamber.  We may need this chamber for someone else any minute. You make it sound as bad as the housing situation. Yes, it is, but you're all right now. Next time, don't come up so fast. I... I didn't come up fast. Yes? Nothing. Nothing at all. Thanks a million, doctor. Well, it had me. Good. I knew I came up slowly. Angus had been with me. He... I don't know, but that couldn't be. Not Angus. The next day I went back to the job. I had just put on my coveralls when an idea hit me. I searched in my pocket. Little something, Dan. Oh, no, Joe, I... It's easy to drop something out of these coveralls. What's the number of your tag, Joe? Tag. Oh, the one we all wear in case we get the bends on top. Yeah. 502. Why? Got it on. Sure. Always worth. Here it is. Uh-huh. Why? What are you getting at? I... I don't know. Listen, I'm going back for something I forgot. I'll be a little late on the job. Tell the section boss for me, will you? Sure. Where you going?  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess I am, Joe. I'll be back. I went to see Mac. Told him he'd have to go to the tunnel that day and supervise operations. He thought I was crazy. Me? What for? To force your opponents into the open where we can get a shot at them for a change. I don't get this. Look, they're going after you, but by accidents. Things like that. Sure. But if you're in the workings, they might be tempted to direct the entire tunnel with one stroke. What do you mean by going after me? That's it. You want me to lead with my chin like that?  Lose the contract. Money isn't everything. Exactly. You're right. But men have been killed down there. You've got to think of their lives too. I do. Then get down with me. End this once and for all. Force them into the open. You're going too? Yeah, because I've got an idea. But I can't prove a thing until we see the last play. I was leading with Mac's chin and I knew it. But mine was plenty sore too, and that made me feel a bit better about it. Mac knew he had no choice, and so he decided to go with me into the tunnel. I went to my job, and it was a ticklish feeling, knowing that any minute something might happen. Something that would make Joe, Mac, Angus, any one of us, the third to die. Or worse. Then... Hey, Dan. Want to stop? Money? I could have sworn the mud down here wasn't this deep before. What do you mean, Joe? Stand still. Look around. The mud's coming up. It's getting high. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Joe, the pressure in here must be going down. Yeah. Dan, if it gets too low, that wall will come in on us. The whole river will be in our laps. Come on, let's get to the gauges. Dan, Dan, push them out. The pressure's going down in here. Come on. There's nothing wrong with the gauges. They read the right pressure. Well, they can't. The mud's getting higher. Look. Look, the men are coming in. They've seen the mud coming up. The gauges. Hey, there ain't no air being pumped in. The gauges are stuck. Jam. Somebody jam them so anybody reading them will think the pressure was okay. Get to the emergency compressors. Pressure's dropping fast. Get to the compressors. Get them on. I got them. Stuck gauges. We're getting pressure now. What's the matter? What happened? Angus, somebody jammed the pressure gauges. To make it look like we had enough in here. Jammed? Well, save for those emergency compressors we'd have been done for. What did you say, Angus? I said the emergency compressors. You said save for the emergency. Save for... ...many way of putting it, Angus. Either in words or on a telegram. What's the matter with you? Where's your tag? Huh? Right here. Yes, with a new chain. So is your tag I picked up in that cart yesterday. The cart that almost killed me. You're crazy.  I was coming in here. Then what are you trying to see? There's your saboteur. Mind your craziness. Stop craving crazy. Yeah? And you went back down yesterday to decompress yourself after I left the chamber. You didn't turn on the decompression valve from me on the way up. You're... you're crazy, man. Not crazy, Angus, because you were the only one who could have played that trick on me. Get me out of the way by failing to turn on the decompression valve. You and I were the only ones in that chamber. Hey, he's running back to the shield. Get him before he gets the compressors. You're welcome. And I never can thank you enough but to think that after 30 years, Angus would ever do a thing like this. No, Mac. Don't waste time even thinking about it. Let's go finish this tunnel instead. What was the matter with you, Mr. Holliday? Jealousy, Susie? You see, he'd work with Mac as a foreman. Then he saw Mac rise from a foreman to the owner of a big company. For 30 years, every day, he'd go into the tunnel just... just an employee. While Mac stayed on top. The big boss. And it kind of made him... well... jealous, huh? To put it mildly, yes. Golly. Well, that makes up my mind for me, Mr. Holliday. Congratulations, Susie. Huh? What do you mean? I quit. Huh? In about 29 years. Oh. Good night, Susie. Next week, same time, through the courtesy of Paramount Pictures, Alan Lads stars as Dan Holliday in box 13. Box 13 is directed by Richard Sanville. Three to Die is an original story by Mr. Sanville, adapted for radio by Russell Hughes. Original music is composed and conducted by Rudy Schrager. The part of Susie is played by Sylvia Picker. Production is supervised by Byrne Carstensen. This is a Mayfair production from Hollywood. Watch for Alan Lads in his latest Paramount Picture.


Effective speaking. Speak. Speak is an acronym. An acronym is a special kind of word. It looks just like a regular word we can pronounce. Each letter in an acronym stands for another word or expression. ASAP. As soon as possible. TESOL. Teaching English to speakers of other languages. SPEED. The S in speak stands for speed. When we are nervous, our voice sounds higher and less effective. Slow down and your voice will sound deeper. Practice using your voice effectively with this video. PAUSE. The P in speak stands for pause. Pause after a few sentences. Your audience needs time to process what you tell them. Extension. The E in speak stands for extension. Extend your body and stand tall. Move your shoulders back. Standing tall will help your voice too. Attitude. The A in speak stands for attitude. Relax your facial muscles. Smile when it is appropriate. Keep eye contact. The K in speak stands for keep eye contact. Look people in the eye when you speak. Scan the room when you speak to a larger audience. This means to look at many different people, not just one person. Practice it every day. SPEED. PAUSE. Extension. Attitude. Keep eye contact. Which makes speak. The end.


Students, it's Shayna from espressoenglish.net and today I want to answer a question about two very similar phrasal verbs, find out and figure out. Both of these phrasal verbs are related to discovering some information, the moment where you begin to know some information that you didn't know before. But there's a difference. We usually use find out. When you discover the information by hearing it from someone else, so that's why I have the ears, or when you discover the information by seeing it with your eyes. So for example, let's say your brother is going to get married and you would talk to him to find out the date of the wedding. He's going to tell you this information. So you're hearing it with your ears, you find out the date of the wedding. Or let me think of an example with seeing something. Let's say you are going to go to the grocery store and you can't remember how many eggs you have in the refrigerator. You need to know if you need to buy more eggs. So you would open the refrigerator and look inside to find out how many eggs you have. So that's another example of discovering information by seeing. And in this case, we use the phrasal verb find out. Figure out what you use for discovering information by thinking and by using your own logic, your own reasoning and analysis. So for example, if you have math homework and there's a problem and you need to discover the answer, then you try to figure out the answer because you're using your own logic and your own thoughts. That's why I have this little thought here. We often use figure out for problems that need to be solved by analysis and planning and thinking. For example, let's say you're the manager of a fast food restaurant and you have ten employees and all of your employees have different schedules. Some of them have other jobs, some of them go to school at night and then you need to take everybody's schedule and figure out what would be the best time for each person to work. So again, that's an example of discovering some information by using your own brain and using your own thinking and your own logical reasoning. So here's a good way to remember these two phrasal verbs. I'm going to give you a tip which is a great tip by itself but it will also help you remember when to use find out and when to use figure out. So here's my tip. When you come across, when you see a new word or a new phrase in English that you don't know, first try to figure out what it means from the context. So let's say you're reading a book and you see a sentence and there's a word you don't know, first try to think about it and look at the sentence and the situation in general and try to figure out what that word means. Then you can check a dictionary to find out if you were correct. So you look the word up in the dictionary to check, to find out and discover if the definition that you figured out by using your brain is correct, okay? If you want to learn more phrasal verbs in context because I really think that the best way to learn phrasal verbs like these is by looking at the real situations where they're used, right? Because if you just study a big list of phrasal verbs, then it's going to be really hard to remember them and even harder to use them. So I like real situations, I like real examples and that's why I created a course called phrasal verbs in conversation. So in this course it's based on conversations between two people in a variety of situations and each conversation uses a number of phrasal verbs like these and so you read and listen to the conversation and then afterwards I explain what each one of the phrasal verbs means and it becomes much easier to learn them when you're learning them in context. There are also exercises for you to put the phrasal verbs into practice and you can send me your exercises to find out if you're using the phrasal verbs correctly. So if you'd like to join the phrasal verbs course, click on the link I put it above the video, okay? And your homework for today is to write a comment on this video saying one new fact that you recently found out, that you recently discovered by observation or by hearing it. For example, I was reading the news and I found out that a very famous deli in New York is going to close. A deli is a type of, it's not really a restaurant, it's a place where you can buy sandwiches and sliced meat and cheese and usually some salads. Anyway, so it's a place where you can get things to eat. I found out that a famous deli in New York is going to close soon. So that was a new fact that I discovered and I read it in the news. You can also leave a comment using figure out. Tell me something that you recently discovered using your own logic. So I recently figured out how to change the sound of the notifications on my cell phone. I have a new cell phone and I'm getting used to using it and I didn't know how to change the sound of the notifications. So I played with the cell phone and I used my own thinking and my own experimentation to figure out how to change the sound, okay? I look forward to reading your comments. If you have any other questions about phrasal verbs or other aspects of English, please feel free to leave a comment and maybe I'll make a future video about it. Bye for now.


We are now live on YouTube. Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to the Vermont State Senate Committee on Institutions. Today is April 28th, 2021. I am your sometimes reluctant host of this event, Joe Benning, the chair for this committee. I am from the Caledonia County District. We are meeting today to talk about the Capital Complex Security Advisory Committee and language in a bill that has not yet made its way through the State House, much less to the governor, but we'll talk more about that in a minute. For the instant purposes, I'm going to also introduce Senator Mazza from Grand Isle, Senator Inglis from Essex Orleans. I am anticipating Senator's parent from Franklin County and Senator McCormick from Windsor County in the not too distant future. To the task at hand to all witnesses, I would only ask to remind you that we are live on YouTube. Most of us know each other in one fashion or another, and we are commonly using terms that people in the general public may not know about. So if you get interrupted while you may be speaking, it may be simply to identify what some statement is or name of an outfit is that you're talking about so that the public in general is aware of what we're talking about.  So in the off chance possibility that there's at least one, we like to be respectful to people who don't know much about this system. I'm talking today specifically about a bill labeled S30 which had to do initially with the possession of firearms inside hospitals. There is a second part of that bill which would make this committee responsible for a report due back to the legislature with recommendations about what if anything to do by way of potential legislation with respect to firearms in the capital complex. For the public's edification, most people think of that as the state house and the front lawn that is not the case. The capital complex is actually a fairly large area that incorporates at least some private homesteads and the language in the bill itself. I've asked Denise to have presented on the screen so that we are all familiar with what's going on. The purpose in having you folks called here today is to let you know that there is a deadline for this report to come back. The bill has not made its way through the state house. It has not made its way past the governor. One of two things could happen. The governor could sign it or the governor could reject it in which case we would be coming back as a legislature, I believe it's the end of June which further shortens the window of opportunity for making a report as has been requested in this language. I wanted to first alert all the committee members to that responsibility. Denise, do you happen to have that language you can pull up? Yes, just a moment. Okay, while Denise is trying to pull that up when she does, I will lose most of you on the screen. So if anybody has a question or a comment, please shout out because otherwise I won't know that you are out there. Allison, in direct question, direct answer to you, the question that you posed earlier, I don't remember whether we were live on YouTube or not. The question about extending the ability of this committee to meet and perhaps getting some money to conduct the investigation that may be required pursuant to this bill. We're gonna have to have conversation about that because I am not sure as I sit here whether it would be coming through the capital bill or having to come through appropriations in some different form, but we've already agreed to the dollar amount that the capital bill is spending. So having to adjust it in the capital bill could be problematical by itself. There is another component here is we don't necessarily have an investigative team associated with this committee, which would be required to get through this report process. And if you take a look on your screens, you can see that we are expected to make a report on or before December of 2021. Our committee here is essentially limited in the number of times that it has to meet in the off season. And I believe it's two times. If Alice, you disagree with that, let me know, but we are expected to summarize how the possession of firearms at the capital complex is currently regulated. We are supposed to describe situations when persons have impermissibly possessed firearms at the capital complex in the past and how these situations are typically handled. And then recommend whether and how the issue of firearms at the capital complex should be addressed in legislation. I will be honest and say, I'm a member of the judiciary committee. I did not vote for this bill. I heard testimony from several of you during that initial stage of the bill working its way through the judiciary committee that the language that had originally been proposed prior to this report section being put into the bill dealt with firearms in the state house, a much narrower discussion point. This language came out of judiciary in sort of an attempt, I guess, to try to reach consensus we can agree or disagree on whether consensus was reached from my perspective, consensus was not reached and the real issues of what it meant for this committee was not properly thought out and discussed to the point where we understood exactly what we were getting into. Those of you who came to the judiciary committee to testify, I clearly came away with the impression that language regarding the state house was not necessary due to what we currently have available to us by way of signage and an unlawful trespass charges, someone was to disobey that signage. You may have a different opinion on that subject but that's at least what I came away with. Now that we are being potentially told to make a much bigger report, this is a completely different area and I wanted all of you to be brought into a conversation, a round table if you will, to give us some thoughts to think about as we work our way towards the end of the session and what other things may have to come into play here for us to be able to accomplish what this language is asking us to do. So I don't know if anybody needs to have that still up on the screen, but I'd like to take it down at this point, unless somebody objects, you know what it says, basic terms. So Denise, I don't hear anybody objecting. With that, I would like to throw it wide open for conversation because we have to at least begin the process of thinking about the possibility that we may have a very short window of time to come up with an answer to that. I suppose I will start with Matt Romy-Eye and ask you, what do you think in response to this language? Well, Matthew Romy-Eye, Capitol Police Chief and Senator, when we were anxiously awaiting your arrival earlier, Commissioner Schirling mentioned something that we've talked about that relates to this, that there's a much bigger picture to the safety and security concept for the Capitol complex that really needs to be dug into. Things that have happened this year have brought some of those issues to light. And I think this is a part of that bigger picture. So the particular language that is existing right now in this bill, if we are to generate a report, I might suggest that the easiest way to do is to split it amongst areas of responsibility and will draft something that deals with the legislative spaces that are subject to the joint rules. Commissioner Fitch's shop can draft something up that reflects the things that fall under her responsibility and Court Administrator Gable and her team could pull something together that deals with the space in the Supreme Court. And I say that that way because there's three completely fundamentally different sports, to be honest with you. It's not just a different ball field, but a different sport as to how things can and maybe should happen in those separate spaces. And that might be a place to start for a draft of a report if that's something that you want. My two cents, your mileage may vary. No, I appreciate those comments. And since you're the first speaker, I'm gonna turn to Janet and ask if you've got anything you'd like to chip in there. You and Matt obviously would be working together for your particular jurisdiction. Yeah, I mean, we did discuss that earlier what Matt had talked about and I'm in agreement with that. There are other issues that probably come into play that need to be discussed. And then we do have the rules already set here at the State House regarding the trespass as you spoke of before. I will say that I suspect the prime sponsor of the bill is anxious to have a conversation about being more specific when it comes to firearms on both the State House lawn and inside the building. There's already been a bill introduced, I think today, that talks about open carry in those areas. And so that part of the conversation could get a little bit more substantive just to give you a heads up that there are movements of foot talking about that issue. And I do understand that it could potentially bring into play are we now calling for security at each door and metal detectors, et cetera. But it's a much more complicated discussion. And I'm not sure, frankly, how we meet that December 21st deadline to have that discussion properly fleshed out, but I'm willing to play along. And just to give you that heads up, there may be a bigger part of that conversation when you guys, you two come back with your section of the report. That's nothing we were aware of at this time. So that's good to know, thank you. Commissioner Scherling, I see your name up there. I didn't see your face, but I would like to turn to you. You were one of the people that had come to testify before the judiciary committee. And I'm interested to hear your reaction to the language that's presented here and the timeline in which we are expected to do something. I'm asking that question with full knowledge that you in particular may have a much bigger role in coming up with the answers to this report due to the fact that it covers the entire complex and not just the state house in the front lawn. Thank you, Senator. The language relative to the report is relatively straightforward. I think we believe collectively between Commissioner Fitch, Chief Romney and I that on items one and two, we could provide that information pretty much instantaneously relative to the policy implication that's contemplated at number three. That's a much more nuanced and potentially robust conversation that's needed. And as was indicated earlier by Chief Romney, I would, we believe at public safety, it's a piece of what should be a much larger conversation around security and not just related to the potential possession of firearms in the complex or more specifically at the state house. So there are a variety of things from finding better mechanisms to share intelligence where that intelligence won't become public facing to just the overarching security profile that may be necessary at certainly things that should be contemplated here in the 21st century as things have shifted quite substantially, particularly in the last three or four years. So I'm gonna ask both you and Chief Pete who's on the line, this capital complex incorporates several private homes. I don't know what the statistical information is that is available regarding those homes because the way that I read this language, we're supposed to come up with a report about what's going on in those homes over the past, however many months or years we wanna talk about, but is there any way that we can reproduce that information? We can search our record systems to determine what the particular calls for service are in the geographic footprint that's contemplated, whether that's as narrow as the state house or as large as a complex or city wide or state wide for that matter. Okay. Chief Pete, thanks for being here. I don't know if you've got anything you'd like to add to that conversation. And I pretty much would echo everybody else's current sentiment regarding what was previously discussed that obviously I wasn't there for that, but regarding what the commissioner just said, I do think that this is part of a bigger picture, bigger larger concerns, all the moving parts, the external moving parts to this. But in regarding to getting that information of those private residences or properties that do surround or that are part of the capital complex, that's we can geofence that out of Alcor and provide that information as well. Okay. Pat. Hello. Hi. Yeah, I should be going through the formal process and asking each of you to identify yourselves before you chat, because we are on YouTube. Sorry about that. So I'm Patricia Gabel. I'm the state court administrator. And I agree generally with the comments that have already been made, both in terms of a way we might start with a report, which is for each of our branches to start with the frame of how we do things now and that could lead to further discussions regarding communication and collaboration. And I also agree with the suggestion, if it's possible to maybe expand the number of meetings we have, so that we can take the time to put together a thoughtful report. And I also agree with Commissioner Sherling's comments that it's really a, there are many transformations that have happened. And one of the transformations is, a little bit of a reboot about what it means to provide security for our citizens when they're coming into one of the buildings that are in the capital complex. So that's why one of the reasons I think we probably need to have more meetings at least in the coming session. I completely agree that we need more meetings. My ultimate hope is that we extend the date for the report being issued by at least another month because at that point, Alice Emmons takes over the chair position of this committee and I wouldn't be responsible for it anymore. Joe, I think it's reversed. I looked in the statute. The first year is the chair of corrections and institutions who has chaired this committee. And then the second year, it's Senate institutions. I asked this question at least three times of legislative council. Came away fairly depressed thinking that I was stuck. Well, it says here, and I asked Becky in the statute because I was curious myself, it said in the first year, the chair of house corrections and institutions shall service chair of the committee and the chair of Senate institutions shall be vice chair. And anyway, thereafter, the offices of chair and vice chairs shall rotate. I think Alice that led council was taking the position that the first year is when the body is reconstituted, not the biennium first year. So when we had our very first Capitol complex committee meeting might have been the second year of a biennium and then that takes it off. I think that is quite possible. And believe me, I would be happy to hand this off to you right now if you would like to take it. I just want clarity. It says in the first year and we'd have to go back to when this committee was first established. It was added back number 88, 2015, effective May 6th of 2016. So that's an election year. Right. So that would have been in the middle of the biennium. So in the first year Look at Colleen. It's going to have heads on both sides and I'm calling heads. Well, we'll iron out the details of which one of us is ultimately responsible Alice, but my, my thought is the bill itself is now on your side of the building. And if amendments to the bill itself granting us more time have to be plugged in, you might as well throw in the monetary question on top of it to make sure that we have adequate resources to come up with a response to all this. So far I haven't heard anybody tell me they need to have money to issue their portion of a report. But we still have to have somebody drafting the ultimate document and whether we have that resource available is still a question in my mind right now. Right. In the statute for reimbursements, it's only the legislators that get reimbursed. For, you know, for expenses. Yeah. I'm a job for you, Joe. Yeah, but it's, it's the, it's, if we have to go out for expert advice or information that we might need for this report, what happens? I've got a question, a two-fold. What if S 30 doesn't move on the house side? Then all of this conversation is not relevant until they move it. If they do. Or if the governor vetoes it and his veto is upheld, then it's irrelevant. The problem that we both have right now is, if it goes through, we have an extremely limited window of opportunity to get an answer by December 31st. That's why we're having this conversation. So one thing that we could do is put language in somewhere. If as even, well, put language in for up to four meetings instead of the two meetings, and deal with if there's any extra expenses for that. If S 30 doesn't go through the house, doesn't get taken up. Is it worth it for us to meet as a committee to talk about the security issues within the capital complex, the chief from EI and commissioner, that's the issue that we need to talk about that first. And then, I think that's the issue that we have to consider as a product. Is that something we should consider? Meeting on to begin with. Regardless. Of S 30. Sure. I would argue that the reason this committee exists is to have those very conversations. And certainly there is ample evidence that things are changing on the ground all around us. was meeting this December 21st deadline and we can plan accordingly one way or the other. I want to continue going around the table though. Juan Manoli, welcome to Senate institutions. Long time no see. It is a pleasure being before Senate institutions, Chair Benning, and thank you for the invitation. So, I would agree. Your official introduction is? Oh, I apologize. I felt like I did that earlier. So, my apologies. Juan de Manoli, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Motor Vehicles. And with me today, I have Director Fakos, who is the Director of Enforcement and Safety for the Department of Motor Vehicle. So, Tony and I are here with you today. I'll just, I'm going to concur with what Commissioner Shirling said regarding the policy, especially around the security within the capital complex, the communication, and the just the overall security, you know, and I think especially for us, it's really important to be involved because I think sometimes we don't think about this, but located at 120 State Street is a division of law enforcement. And we are in this building and I know that my officers and my Director of Enforcement have a responsibility and want to be incorporated into it. I'm not offering that they take over the security in any way within the complex, but there is a role and communication, especially from that law enforcement side and supporting everyone within the complex is really it's extremely important, and it's their responsibility. I also would just comment on the appointment that you just made, Chair, in bringing back the advisory committee for security in the original language. And we would agree with this that its purpose is that continual review of coordinating security within the complex and enhancing communications and the efficiency. So I think there is real opportunity within Title II and bringing that back in to be engaged in that, especially in light of everything that has been we have dealt with, especially over the last year. So with that and your permission, I would also like to just ask Director Faco, so if he has any comments to add to mine and if you have any questions. You certainly have my permission, but I don't see him on the screen anywhere. Where did he go? I think he left. If I may, I'm just going to step out and ask him to come in. Hold on. Well, I hope you all had a good time telling lawyer jokes or something while you were waiting for us to assemble. We're trying to figure out what to do. I think you enjoy being lawyer today, Joe. So he has stepped away, so I know he will agree with most of everything that I said. Thank you, Chair Benning. Sure. Well, I don't know if we have reached the point where we're in need of talking about metal detectors and security guards at the Department of Motor Vehicles, but it is something that there are some people in the building talking about. And so I'm not asking you to give a response now, but it is something that we as a committee are going to need to start talking about in a more broader sense, because traditionally we've been talking about the State House, and this is much bigger than that as I see it. Bill McSales, I didn't want to skip over you, but I got the sense Pat was never mind. I'll rethink that. I want to see who's going to win out this battle. You were the commissioner. I defer to the commissioner at all times. That's what my good sense tells me to do. I'm only going around my screen clockwise, so you were on the next list and I happen to have Commissioner Fitch at the very end of that clockwise rotation. So Commissioner Fitch, welcome. Because you're saving the best for last, is that how this works? In the world, we have this thing called the Fifth Amendment, and we're entitled to invoke it when necessary. But anyhow, welcome to institutions. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. So for the record, my name is Jennifer Fitch, and I have the honor of being the BGS commissioner. Thank you for having me here today. Bill is here with me as well, so I will yield my time to him in a minute. But all that is to say that our goal here at BGS is to support programmatic outcomes, and we are charged with safety and security in state facilities and grounds that are underneath the jurisdiction of BGS. We also feel that we can provide the information. In fact, Bill has already pulled it for us in terms of the number of incidences that we've had in the complex. It turns out that since 2016, we have two that were recorded, and only one of those that was an actual gun incident. The other one was in 133, the umbrella, as we all remember. The other one was at 120 in DMV. Somebody had a gun on them, and we worked with DMV and our staff and just reminded the gentleman that he's not allowed to have a gun in a state facility, and he was very kind and nice, and he walked back out of the building and secured his gun in his car. So we believe things have been going well, but that being the case, we're always happy to collaborate with our partners. Our number one goal is the safety and security of state employees and our visitors, and we want to do everything we can do to meet that goal. So we're happy to collaborate and work with everybody on that. And then in terms of sort of technical expertise, I'm not a law enforcement officer. It's not my background. And so I take my cues and recommendations from other folks, such as Commissioner Schirling at BSP, Chief Romy and I from Capitol Police, Chief Pete from Montpelier PD, as well as happy to bring in Wanda's folks from DMV and enforcement as well. So we're happy to partner. We're happy to be at the table. I agree that things have changed. The landscape has changed, and we should continue to focus on those tools and ways in which to provide that safety and security. If it's okay with you, Senator Benning, do you mind if I yield to Bill to Bill and anything that I might have missed? Bill, welcome. Thank you for having me. My name is Bill McSales. I'm the Director of the Office of State Safety and Security. A few years ago we had a database that recorded all these different safety and security type events. We found that that database wasn't robust enough to track the way that we needed to do things. So we developed a new database called SSIR Safety and Security Incident Report. And we have about 500 different events in that database within not quite a year. And I looked through those databases and I found that, again, we've only had a few very small incidences regarding firearms within the Capitol Complex statewide. We have a very few events regarding firearms. We have more with knives and clubs and other things, and particularly a few buildings. And I also have specific reports of those particular events that I'm happy to pull for this committee. So if you want the details as to exactly what happened in people's names and description of the events, I can provide that for you. But I only kind of have a summary today. I don't have the exact of reports with you, but I can. Bill, can I ask you a couple of questions? How far back does your database go? Right now I easily could pull data back to 2016. But only the last year have we had this much more robust database that's more specific and allows us to really pull good reports. Before that, I can get you some information. But I can't say that it's as reliable as I would want it to be. Another question is the extent of your database. If an incident was to take place between, say, the back door of DMV and the north branch of the Winooski River, would your database include that information? What we could do is we would, I could search by location and generally that generally those locations are specific addresses. But if we search for all those different addresses, if there's any in the area in question, we could read the actual report and it very well may say that yet we attributed the event to, for example, 120. But in fact, as you read the report, it might say that it actually occurred in the rear parking lot or something. So I think we could still determine where things might have happened. But it may take a little research to do that. Same question would be for Baldwin Street at one of the residential homes on that street. Would your database incorporate that as well? Or would I have to turn to either Montpelier or Commissioner Shirling to get that information? Well, frankly, we could search the database to determine whether or not we had a report of any kind of event at that particular place. But generally, unless we knew about it, residents in those private residents wouldn't know to fill out an SSIR report. And unless our officers came across some security concern there too, they wouldn't. So it is possible that some event could have taken place. We just may not have a record of it. Okay. Anything else you'd like to tell us? I'm happy to be here, sir. Thanks. Okay. I think I've exhausted everybody that was on the screen, although Catherine Benham's hanging out there wisely being silent. I don't know if Catherine, you wanted to add anything to the conversation? No, thank you. I was just, I was here. I was invited to talk and just listening. Okay. Chief Romney? Well, Senator Benning, since you posed that question to Bill, I did just want you to know we pull a geographically segregated report every year. And it's part of the information we send up to appropriations. And it's department agnostic. So it picks it up if DMV goes down and deals with a disorderly person at the DMV counter, it picks that up. If mob failure deals with someone within the complex, it picks that up. What we don't pick up right now are the state police calls, but they're kind of black swans right now. If they're down here on the call, one of us is usually there with them. So they get picked up in another way. And we've been tracking that for the last four years. So it might not pick up things that are security only that don't involve law enforcement, but if it rises to a law enforcement call for service, we pick that up in that report over here. So for one of the private homes on Baldwin Street, if there is, say, an aggravated assault with a weapon, where would I normally find that information in a way that we can get it consolidated into a report? We can pull that through Valkor. And I can tell you, those are exceptionally rare. I would like to think so, but I want to make sure we're covering all the bases that we're expected to in this bill. Well, I think we've exhausted the list of witnesses. Alice, I'm happy to hear your thoughts, your comments, your desire to get out of here. What would your preference be? Well, I do have a committee that's meeting right now. So I do have to scoot here in a little bit. It's a very interesting committee, by the way. Yes, it is. It's quite a mixture of personalities and folks. I think that we just have have to figure out how we're going to move forward. I think it might be good to see if we can get some language in somewhere to see if we can meet up to four times when we're out of session this year. I think if S-30 does not pass, does not become law, I think we still have some work to do as a security advisory complex committee, whatever it's called. And I think we should just pursue with four meetings, off session, and see if we can find some place to put that in language. And right now in terms of S-30, I think we're in a holding pattern at this point to see what's going to happen to S-30. What I've heard on the House side, it is still on hold. It hasn't been, I don't think they've had any testimony on it or anything at this point. So I don't know what the plan is on the House side to move S-30 or not. So I feel that on that we're kind of in a holding pattern right now. That bill was never needed in the first place. So I can't imagine they're going to act too fast on it. Yeah, I don't know. That's above my pay grade. Commissioner Fitch, there's your hand up. Thank you, Senator. This is just a question. So it sounds like there is a willingness and a desire from all of the folks that you just asked to work together to think about opportunities to improve the safety and security within the capital complex. I guess I leave it to everyone to say if that is something we all have a desire to do, should we be doing that regardless of the bill? My response would be definitely yes. The conversation is certainly part of this committee's responsibility, whether there's a bill or not. Part of the rationale for getting everybody together this soon is to make sure that everybody's on the same page and knowing that we have information that needs to be collected. Whether the bill passes or not, that information will be used by all of us when we start talking about the larger subject of what to do going forward as this committee normally does. So yeah, I appreciate that. And that is certainly a seed that needs to be planted right now. So we are all coming back the next time with a little bit more under our belts to talk about. I didn't know whether you had anything more you wanted to say, Alice.  No, I just think, you know, should we meet in a couple of weeks just to check in on the way of the land? Maybe yesterday we'll have more information. Maybe, I don't know. I'm not sure it would be necessary for the entire committee to meet, but certainly you and I need to meet to talk about where the legislation stands because it may require us to get this group back together again sooner rather than later. Right. This group, are we Mr. Chair? This committee will eventually be deeply involved in the conversation if decisions are being made about what specifically is going to happen in the capital complex. For instance, is it time to talk about metal detectors at the front doors of the state house? So you're not necessarily on the committee, but the institution's committees will be deeply involved in that conversation as soon as this group makes recommendations. So that's up to your committee to make recommendations to us. That is true. Okay. Okay. Anybody else have anything they want to bring up? I will again apologize for not having the ability to know when the Senate is going to adjourn for the afternoon. Hopefully next time we meet we can, we'll do it on a day when the Senate is meeting in the morning. How's that? In the house meets in the afternoon, but maybe we'll be shifting to the morning. Who knows? My ultimate hope here is that we can meet again after the session has adjourned because we don't have the time crunch under us. But thank you all very much for coming to Senate institutions today. And committee, I'm going to ask you to hang on the line. Denise is going to keep us on YouTube and we'll say goodbye and have a great day to the rest of you. May I just briefly, before Representative Emmons leaves, can I call you later this afternoon? Yeah, probably after 5.30 or 6. Thank you. I'll do that. No problem. Thank you. I'm off to my committee. Thank you all for coming. Nice to see you again, Wanda. Nice to see you. So committee, before everybody disappears here, I want to make sure first you've all got your summaries for the report tomorrow. Don't see Senator Parrot joining us yet. Anybody have any questions about where you are and how to make a presentation? Senator McCormick. Thanks. Summaries, has someone written up a summary for us or are you talking about we should have prepared our summaries by now? Rebecca Wasserman sent each one of us a summary of what the Senate has done to the House bill. And by the way, when you're talking on the floor, you should know what the House bill says in regards to your particular section report so that if you get asked detailed questions, like for instance, I had Ruth Hardy contact me after the floor and say, what's going on with the mental health facility? What are we doing? Well, our committee did not make any changes to the House language regarding the mental health facilities. But you may have to answer the question of whatever substantive area you're covering as it's written in the House bill. That's what I'm calling Alice about. That's what I'm calling Alice. No, that's a wise move because I'm sure there'll be questions popping up. And there are things we did touch on in our committee, but there are other things we did not, but you're still responsible for covering those sections. Catherine. Let's go by the bill as passed. And yes, all that. Okay. Becky sent an email last night at 7 12 p.m. Thank you. And you should be able to find it that way. It's a section by section summary. So that would that should help you as well. There is one other thing we've got to talk about, and that is Friday's conversation. I had overnight mail express sent to all of your houses. A report from the architectural firm of Freeman French and Freeman talking about options for going back into the State House, both short term and long term. We are going to have the architectural representative, Jesse Beck, come and talk to us on Friday about that report. The report you will notice has options A and option B. We are not wedded to either of those options, but it is a starting point for conversation on how, when and if we're going back into the State House under what circumstances, etc. But that will be a conversation for Friday. So if you check your normal mailbox, you should have a cardboard envelope with that document in it. I got mine at 10 o'clock this morning. So hopefully you're all getting it or have it by now. And so you should be prepared to talk about that, review it on Thursday night or whatever. Other than that, anybody got anything they want to talk about? Everybody knows who they're handing off the sections to for the next speaker. Okay. I know Denise sent out a schedule of who the speakers are on what section.  Senator McCormick, I sent you Ms. Wasserman's email just so you have it. Thank you, Senator. I got it. Thank you. You hand off to me, right?  Can I go to parent? Okay. Yeah, I hand off to Senator McCormick. Okay, guys. I think that's all we got. Denise, if you can hang on the line. Let's say anybody else got anything they want to talk about. We're almost done. By the way, the statehouse conversation about when we're coming back under the Freeman French suggestions, that conversation will continue into next week as I ask stakeholders to come in and just offer their thoughts. We're not committing ourselves to anything. We're just beginning the conversation to listen to all the people who run into that building and work there. So for instance, I'm asking the press, I'm asking the staff to come in and talk to us about what their thoughts are and how we come back. And that will be the last of our conversations, I hope, for the year. What's the press coming for? Because they come into the building frequently. They will have specific thoughts about how they want to interact with us inside the building. Those are conversations I think we need to be able to have with the stakeholders who come in and out of the building. Look on the bright side. Maybe they'll have you on the screen, Dick. We lost Senator Monson. I'll bet you he hit the wrong button. Well, in any event, that should close out our conversation for the year. Works for me. Okay. We will see you guys tomorrow.


Here we are in chapter 8. We're going to be looking at verses 1 through 11 as the Apostle Paul is beginning to awaken us, his readers, to the fact that there's no condemnation for us because we're in Jesus Christ. So beginning at verse 1, reading to verse 4, Paul writes, Romans 8, there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh on account of sin. He condemned sin in the flesh that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Now Paul has been giving us insight as we've been going through Romans. We saw it in chapter 7. Paul has been giving us insight into the war that rages within us, and he had made some statements to emphasize this war in verse 18 of chapter 7. He said, I know that in me that is in my flesh nothing good dwells, for the will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find, for the good that I will to do, I do not do, but the evil I will not to do that I practice. He said in verse 23, I see another law in my members warring against the law of my mind and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin, which is in my members. So he gave us insight concerning the war that rages within us. Made it very clear that any Christian truly desiring to please the Lord will encounter internal conflict. The desire to please the Lord is going to battle with our inclination to satisfy the flesh. Paul had said that to the Galatians in chapter 5 verse 17 when he said the flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. These are contrary to one another so that you do not do the things that you wish. So there's a war within a battle that is a conflict between our desires to please God and the inclinations of sinful human flesh and this battle is continuous and because it is it can begin to wear us down. We can grow tired of the continual conflict. We can become discouraged because the war does not end and this reality had had drawn him to the word said he wrote in verse 24. Oh wretched man that I am who will deliver me from this body of death. So that's what happens. There's this war. What's going to happen? How can I be set free from this and so this conflict can reside within a believer? Like John was referring to it in 1st John 3 20 when he says if our heart condemns us because our heart can because we haven't reached perfection because we haven't attained because we're still pressing toward the mark there's still wars within battles that continue and discouragements that can be produced because we're not always victorious not at least not as much as we'd like to be not as completely and So I says our heart can condemn us but he goes on to say but God is greater than our heart. He knows all things He knows that his iris to please him, but the war rages within You see every person who ever entered into the world entered in the same way we entered in with the sin nature No one other than Jesus Christ has ever been exempt of this because all of us are born with the fallen nature The Bible makes it clear Psalm 51 5 Surely I have been a sinner from birth sinful from the time my mother conceived me Psalm 58 3 even from birth the wicked go astray from the womb.  And so that answers a question. Why do people do evil things? Why is there evil in the world? Aren't people born basically blank slates and they are written on by the culture the parenting and everything else and The Bible's answer to that question is no We're not born as as pure souls are born with a sinful capacity a sin nature And we simply do those things that are natural for us to do we do those things that are we're inclined to do We're simply working out the the inclinations of the sinful human nature And and they're worked out in a variety of things which Paul speaks of for example in Galatians 5 19 through 21 And begins to describe what human beings who are unregenerate are are basically in habit of doing He says the the acts of the sinful nature are obvious sexual immorality impurity and debauchery idolatry and witchcraft hatred discord jealousy fits of rage selfish ambition dissensions factions and envy Drunkenness orgies and the like and then he goes on to say I warn you as I did before that those who live like this will not Inherit the kingdom of God and So the natural inclination as is revealed in scripture is to sin and it's finding its expression in a variety of ways Now Paul's already made it very clear because of all of this that that unbelievers are under God's righteous and just condemnation And that judgment will come even if we don't believe it actually really will happen There are a lot of people who think that they're going to be exempt from judgment. They don't think that it's going to happen in their life They they have dug a hole and placed their head in a sand And don't notice what's going on around them it It's expressing a variety of ways But I think sometimes you can see this because sometimes we don't heed the warnings that are given to us even though by not Heating those warnings. We may end up paying a very severe price like those who have on occasion in in Florida when a hurricane is making its way to the shore and and I've read of this where Where people will actually have hurricane watching parties and They invite their friends up to their apartments and they watch as As a hurricane approaches the shore and and their partying as this takes place and then the hurricane hits the hotel and Devastates them many dying if not all the warning was given But nobody heeded the warning Years ago. There was a tsunami that took place in Southeast Asia and it hit the shore there and in Thailand in various other places and I saw a film where an individual was on a rooftop and was filming as somebody was on the shoreline there and The water had receded and as the water had receded there was somebody there with a basket who saw all the fish that had been stranded and They were out there picking up the fish and putting them in in their their basket and you could hear the person who is videoing this Screaming and saying get off the shoreline get off the beach The wave is coming because the person who was picking up the fish did not realize that the reason the water receded is Because it was building up to the wave that was going to crash And this person was screaming a warning get off the shoreline You're about to die get off the shore and was screaming and you can hear his voice as he's screaming to this person Get off get off the beach run for your life when you see the wave crashing on top of that person and Destroying them right in front of us and The church is filled with with believers who who stand up and say get off the shoreline You're picking up fish. They're doing you no good when you're dead. You can't eat them and Yet people they just they're oblivious there There's a warning that's being shouted out and and there's a an ignoring of that warning and and Paul speaks concerning that Judgment is coming even if people don't believe it In Romans chapter 3 verses 3 and 4 he had said what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect certainly not Indeed let God be true But every man a liar as it is written that you may be justified in your words and may overcome when you are judged God speaks it man disbelieves it does that make God wrong? No, it makes man a liar For not listening to what God has said you see many have found ways to explain away behavior That has always been known as sinful And you've heard this where they'll make their excuses. They'll say things like like everybody's doing it When they say everybody's doing it. It simply makes popular sins Acceptable sins or they'll point to somebody and say well, they're just as bad Which is another way of saying don't judge me. I'm no different than anybody else There are those who will argue that their sinful behavior actually resulted in good. We live together We're happy mind your own business somebody else will say well it isn't illegal So bad laws make bad behavior ethical and you have a morality that is based on legality Somebody will say well, I was following orders You know my boss said if somebody calls light of them tell him I'm not here So I'm following orders.  That's exactly what the Nazis said We were ordered to do that. We were just following orders and there are a lot of people who base their behavior on Being ordered to do something. There's that biblical rationalization that people will have well the Bible says don't judge me But bad behavior is judged and ought to be John 724 Jesus said it like this. He said do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment There's got to be discernment and yet there are a lot of people who will make these excuses for their sinfulness and they say it's okay Well, the final results of living in habitual sin is very clear in scripture. It's condemnation final judgment Paul stated at Romans 118 the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth and unrighteousness so With all of that said here's the amazing thing Chapter 8 verse 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh But according to the spirit amazing people can live with no sense of anticipation of Condemnation, I don't live as a believer afraid because God is taking care of that on my behalf through Jesus Christ The scripture says perfect love casts out fear because fear has torment you fears has not been made perfect in love fear has torment The fear the anticipation of condemnation is a tormenting experience But I can live and you can live as a believer's and this is what Paul is bringing for us right now in verse 1 I can live with no fear no anticipation of condemnation I can live with no fear of judgment Because I am as he is saying in Christ Jesus this phrase in Christ Jesus is used about 164 times in the New Testament When it speaks about us being in Christ Jesus it speaks of the fact that we by one spirit have been baptized into one body And thus we are the body of Christ. We are in Christ It's a common way of expressing the sentiment or the theological teaching of salvation. I've been born again I'm in Jesus Christ and he says I can I can live with no sense or anticipation of condemnation Because I am in Jesus Christ Now obviously being a Christian is more than just an outward form of identification It's a spiritual union with the Lord and it's a spiritual union that took place because of faith Jesus had stated in John 15. He had said I'm the true vine. My father is a husband man and in Verses 4 and 5 of John 15. He said abide in me and I in you as a branch cannot bear fruit of itself except It abide in the vine. No more can you except you abide in me You went on to say I am the vine you are the branches He who abides in me and I in him the same brings forth much fruit for without me You can do nothing and so a believer is an individual who is in Christ We're abiding in him and the result of being in Christ is that we no longer walk According he says to the flesh When you're in Christ your life is different you walk according to the power and leading of the Spirit of God We don't walk or which would speak of living or ordering your life We don't walk in the flesh we walk by the Spirit of God like it says in Galatians 5 16 walk in the spirit You'll not fulfill the lust of the flesh and so when you're walking in the Lord Jesus Christ You're walking what is called a spirit filled life Then there's going to be evidence that you have a relationship with God and that condemnation isn't something you deal with Because it's been passed because you passed from death into life When you're walking in the spirit, it's going to be evidenced by obedience. It's going to be evidenced by love for others It's going to be evidenced by faith It's going to be evidenced by a love for the truth The Bible tells us we walk by faith and not by sight The Bible says we walk in obedience to his commands as you've heard from the beginning his command is that you walk in love The Bible says I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth We've been set apart sanctified by the truth and we walk in the truth And this is an evidence that you know the Lord you have a hunger for his word You have a hunger for his fellow for fellowship with him and with others You have a desire to be in prayer and communication with him you want to talk to other people about Jesus Christ You want them to know the Lord? That's the evidence that you've been saved. You're producing fruit of the spirit. You're walking in his spirit And so with that knowledge because I'm in Christ There's no condemnation and I don't walk according to the principles of the flesh anymore But I walk according to the leading of the Holy Spirit Now he says in verse 2 the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death So we have liberty in Jesus Christ in the spirit of God and I'm not in bondage to the law of Moses I have freedom through Christ whom the son has set free. He's it. He's free indeed And like it says in second Corinthians 3 17 where the spirit of the Lord is there's liberty You see according to verse 3 the law could not do certain things because it was weak. He says through the flesh So in the law of Moses God it's at standards that no human being could achieve on their own Like the scripture said I'll have sin and fall short of the glory of God and because we couldn't fulfill this demands Jesus did it on our behalf and he did so completely Jesus Christ came to fulfill the demands of the father to do that which I couldn't do to do that Which you couldn't do in order that I might by faith trust him the one who was able to do that So that I could have a relationship with God. It's not by works of righteousness Which I have done according to his mercy. He saved me by the wash in a regeneration the renewing of the Holy Spirit That's Christianity There are all kinds of systems religious ritualistic systems that that put the the Responsibility of doing certain things on your shoulders in order that you might somehow qualify To be placed in a position where God might welcome you in But Paul has been arguing and has been saying that's not the case at all The law of Moses revealed to us our sinfulness and our need for a Savior and in revealing the Savior actually Let us to Jesus Christ so that we would be able to Define our our salvation through the grace of God by faith and thus cease our attempts to try to be pleasing to God By adhering to those things that were written on tablets of stone Because when we got saved he now wrote his law on the tablets of our hearts and so from the inside out We now live for Jesus Christ So the law of the Spirit of Christ has made me free from the law of sin of death Now how did God deal with that notice verse 3? He did it by sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh in the outward appearance It speaks of the incarnation Jesus took upon himself human flesh and Lived out a life for us and thus in then complete obedience to his father was able to satisfy him And in doing so it says he condemns sin in the flesh. So it speaks of Condemncing in the flesh. That's his substitutionary death on behalf of all sinners That was prophesied over 700 years before Christ by Isaiah a prophet found in the Old Testament in Isaiah 53 verses 4 and 5 He writes surely he took up our infirmities carried our sorrows yet. We considered him strickened by God Smitten by him and afflicted But he was pierced for our transgressions He was crushed for our iniquities the punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds We have been healed He says in verse 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled The requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us through faith in Jesus Christ the one who fulfills it We are made righteous through faith in Jesus Christ We have trusted him and he has given to us his righteousness We are made righteous by faith and not by activities Like it says in Galatians 3 12 the law is not of faith that the man who does them shall live by them So you couldn't have become righteous by keeping the law because the law already condemned you Jesus is the one who kept the law Now it says in verse 5 Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh But those who live according to the spirit the things of the spirit For to be carnally minded is death But to be spiritually minded is life and peace Because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God Nor indeed can be so then those who are in the flesh cannot please God So a person who loves the Lord is going to be that person who wants to please him A man doesn't go out on his wife for fear of her divorcing him necessarily A man doesn't go out on his wife because he loves his wife If my Marie every time I got up in the morning and came to the office of Marie every day said look at I'm writing you a Little note and and I open up the paper and it says thou shalt not commit adultery. That's really not going to Do much other than irritate me and I don't want to hear that every day Thou shalt not commit adultery.   Leave me alone I don't want to hear that stop it You don't have to be nagging me about that You don't have to be constantly aware you don't have to follow me around You don't have to hire an investigator to see where I'm going at lunch time You don't have to do that on me. Well, why not because my love for you and my fear of God Keeps me from doing those things that are displeased into both God and man. That's why well, how'd that happen? I was born again. The Holy Spirit is residing within me.  I'm gonna love you. I'm gonna follow God and care for you That's how it works. No law can legislate my behavior There are laws against certain things that I might choose to do so what if it's the law I don't care. I'm gonna do what I want. That's human nature But but I'll follow the law based on my inclination to be a good citizen. I'll do that and So if it says stop that doesn't mean slow down That doesn't mean look for a cop to make sure that he's not there watching You know if it's a yellow light. That's not the start of the Indianapolis 500. Let's see how many we can get through You know, I mean you just stop because it says stop You you go the speed limit because it's not suggested because it's a command and and that's what you do it's just that way and And it's not that difficult in some ways it can be but it's not that difficult We simply do that which is right to do because we have something greater within us that that drives us on it It's the desire to remain right with God So so God has written on the tablets of my heart certain things that that from the inside out now because I'm born again I want to do But a person who hasn't been born again has what is called a flesh and and the person in the flesh indulges They're bent towards rebellion in and everything they do They'll do what they want, but the Christian sets her minds on the things that please the Lord He's saying in verse 6 to be currently minded as death But to be spiritually minded is life in peace You see you can only party for so long until you come to the end and realize that that's not fulfilling You can you can only do certain things for so long until you realize that they're not Meeting the need that you thought they would you can you can do this a lot of us in this room understand this from this practical application You see these pictures of some island that you'd love to go to and you start saving your money And you get ready to go and then it takes you years, but you're able to finally go you're on that island It's a beautiful place But but once you're there and you spend a few days there you realize that it's not what you thought It was going to be that's just how it happens you've been saving your money You want that car that car is the best car you've ever seen and you want that car you save your money You finally have the down payment you drive it off the car lot and and after a while you realize that that thing demands gasoline and maintenance And it's expensive and you start saying to yourself. Why did I get the car? You can do that with a lot of things you started dating somebody you said man if I was dating this person I'd be happy and then after a few dates you realize I Don't think so That's what happens. That's what happened. I remember taking Marie out and one of our early dates and And she sat across we went to an Italian restaurant here and I said you can order what you'd like. Oh, I would just like a salad and some water I Said all right and because that gives me more money for me. I only had 10 bucks that changed soon Now I drink water We're always like that. We have our our appearances. We want to Win people. That's just where we are and then then we discover Sometimes that person that I thought was the right person for me really turned out not to be And you'll never be satisfied With something even if it's a great human relationship even if it's a material thing that you've always wanted And none of that we know that at least I'm speaking to many who do some have yet to learn it You'll discover it You'll discover it if you haven't Nothing lasts Everything perishes with the using You buy that new computer you walk out of the store and a week later. They bring the updated version You stand in line for two days to get that new phone You stand in there talking about how cool it's going to be You get the phone and after a while the new one comes out, you know that I know that it's called planned obsolescence They just constantly are improving but constantly hooking us. That's what happens and we know that but we don't know that and The person who's in the flesh. Well, all they want to do is satisfy their flesh So you think one more party and I'll be happy one more drink. I'll be satisfied one more joint And I'll be there and it doesn't work that we know that Because a flesh is never satisfied how much is enough and the flesh always says a little bit more a little bit more a little bit More something different a little variety something and what happens is ultimately Well, the flesh is craving things never satisfied by those things and the end is death But on the other hand to be spiritually minded is life in peace These are things that come from God We have an abundant life because of Jesus Christ. We have peace with and from God Because we've had a relationship with him. That's why Jesus said peace. I leave with you my peace I give to you not as the world gives do I give to you let not your heart be troubled neither let it be afraid I can give you something the world cannot give to you. I can give you peace. I can give you joy I can give you love. I can give you hope. I can give you the things that you can't buy in the store I can give you things that you won't have in a relationship. I can give you those they're gifts from me But you need to be right with me You see to be currently minded is death But to be spiritually minded is life He says in verse 7 the carnal mind is enmity against God. It's not subject to the law of God. It can't be The cons the constant state of hostile warfare is all a non-Christian will ever experience you are constantly at war with him So then those who are in the flesh can never please him It's impossible to do that. Why because your mind is set on the flesh and not the things of the spirit And you'll never have what you want until you have peace with God and the peace that comes from him And those things are eternal those things matter. I shared this with you before this story It comes to mind how Back in the mid-80s I Received a call that a member of our fellowship was dying in the hospital and asked if I could go and pay a deathbed visitation and And I went and as I was standing outside the ICU Behind the glass I saw the wife Ministry to her husband. She wasn't down. She didn't have a mask. He was hooked up to all kinds of tubes. There was a monitor and I was about to open the door to step into the room a nurse stopped me and I was with my assistant Randy walls who's now the pastor of Calvary upland and The nurse stopped me before I walked in and said if you go into that room You're gonna need to gown and you're gonna need to put a mask on because that patient has HIV AIDS and they're dying of AIDS We didn't know at that time as the early 80s. We did not know exactly how this particular Disease was transmitted. We didn't know there were a lot of theories at that time There was a belief that it could be transmitted through through perspiration There was a belief that it could be passed through Through saliva there were there were different things that were being said at that time And that's why they were treating it the way that they did and so The nurse says if you're gonna go in there, you need to gown up you need to put a mask but I'm looking at the wife and and She's not and So I turned to Randy and and I have to be honest with you There was a certain sense of this could be dangerous I don't know what I'm stepping into and I'd been doing my reading and my research on that subject It was a new disease and and I wanted to know was where it was coming from and all of that and So I turned to Randy and I said to Randy listen, I'm gonna go in I'm not gonna gown up But you stay out because we don't know How this is transmitted So you stay here and I'm going in and he looks at me and he says no, I'm gonna go in So I looked at him and said if you want to okay, I'll stay out here and pray for you I'm good with that So he and I went in together and this man's eyes were closed and the wife whispers to him pastors here He opens his eyes and he sees me. He has tubes down his nose and his throat hooked up on his arms He can't speak so he motions to his wife for a pen and some paper and he writes and Hands paper to his wife who in turn hands it to me And I open up the note and I'll never forget what it said. It said I am eternally Grateful to you The reason that it was so touching as he had come to faith in Christ in our fellowship The words that stood out were I am eternally grateful Because he went home to be with the Lord shortly thereafter died of AIDS We've had three members of this church died of AIDS three One man was found on the side of a road in the desert died of AIDS in his car Another man died in a hospital bed and this brother died in a hospital bed died of AIDS I Am eternally grateful to you He died in hope He died with peace, but the word eternally stands out in my mind You cannot be eternally grateful for anything If it's not hooked up to real eternity You can be eternally grateful because Jesus Christ makes it possible There's there for now no condemnation for those who were in Christ Jesus who live not according walk not according to the flesh but the Spirit You can have a sense of brightness with God and that's what Paul's talking about oh Wretched man that I am who will deliver me from this body of death. Thanks be to God Who gives us victory through Jesus Christ there's therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus You see the flesh wars against the spirit and the spirit against the war and the to our contrary They're in console constant hostile opposition one to the other But he says when you realize that the flesh cannot please God but those who walk in the spirit can Then the thing is we ought to walk in the spirit if we walk in the spirit Then we have relationship with God and the joy of God in his presence floods our soul And we're able to do those things because of Christ who strengthens us He says in verse 9 you are not in the flesh but in the spirit if indeed the spirit of God dwells in you now If anyone doesn't have the spirit of Christ, he's not he's not his you're not going to be saved by simply trying to keep Rules and regulations you need the spirit of God dwelling in you He says if Christ is in you the body is dead because of sin the body is is constantly dying It's dying until it finally does but the spirit is life because of righteousness You will continue on into eternity because of the life that you have of Christ within you If the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his spirit who dwells in you God's spirit dwells in you and he gives you life the spirit of God dwells within you The spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives within you God's spirit gives life we can walk in the abundance of life by the power of his spirit who dwells within us We can't do all things through Christ who strengthens us We can I'm sorry to somebody said you've gone through a few things, haven't you? Yeah everybody does I've had three types of cancer I've preached last Easter not this but previous preached the Easter Good Friday Easter services with pneumonia My father dies Not only do I do his funeral, but I before his funeral I Have a leadership class do my Sunday morning services do my Sunday night service on Wednesday when I bury my father on Wednesday night I give a Bible study lose my memory. I'm hospitalized. I come back. I'm in the pulpit I do a lot of things that the Lord Has given me to do and they say you do a lot of things How do you do that I?  What is more important than giving his message to people a message of life that transforms people What is more important than modeling faith before people who may need an example of what God can do in somebody's life?  He gives me strength. He gives me joy He gives me peace. He gives me hope and I didn't lose my mom. She's with Jesus I know exactly where she is so we can do these things in hope because God is alive. That's how it works. That's Christianity That's Christianity That's how it works. I Was telling somebody just yesterday somebody did us great harm private pain but deep great harm Sitting in my office and as they were sitting across from me And they did tremendous harm to us I looked at them and I said I want you to know something. I want you to know I love you and They looked at me and said Can you say that after what I've done? And I laughed I said because that's what Christians do Christians love Christians forgive God gives us the ability to do that You see guys based on the fact that the Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead gives life to us and Because God says we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. Why don't we just start doing that?  Let's give life to others.  There is no condemnation my heart can Accused me but God is greater than my heart.  Isn't God good? Yes. He is