Well, the idea of this workshop is to discuss with you about how to increase the participation in our community, participation in general. Usually, we take care about the developer, new developer. We have Jan that is a mentor for a new developer. We have something similar for documentation. And some members of the community are working on the wiki to take care about all the pages related to getting started in QA development documentation and so on. But those aren't all our contribution area. So what can we do in the other areas? We could talk about diversity, diversity in general. I think that we could work also with schools, with university, because with schools and the university, we have the possibility to find new contributors. And in particular, I would like to make a stronger relationship with other free software projects like the Fedora One or Gnom, Ubuntu, and so on. So the idea of this panel is to discuss and find where we can do more and how we can do more for be a more inclusive project. So for our community, we also talk about development. But I think that the most important part are our users. And we need to find a way to involve them and to involve them to use the software and then to contribute to the project. Any idea on how to... Marina said before this talk that we would really like to... So I talked about gender diversity, because I'm of a different gender than the majority of people in this room, and so did Jona. But this is not what we want to focus on exclusively. And we'd like to focus also on the other types of diversity. For example, how to include more people with disabilities into our project, because we are all that are sitting here. We are able-bodied, so we just have no mental model or frequently can't even imagine what kind of issues those people can have. And if we don't include them in the community, we will never find out. And I could go on like this about all the different... Or I don't know, for example, different nationalities, people who don't write from left to right, but from right to left. We also have... We can improve liberal office in this way as well, if we include more right to left writers and speakers. We can easily somehow widen our user base and make the product less buggy for people whose language and it's not really the default one or the majority one. So, yes, again, I can't stress this enough. We'd like to focus on different kinds of diversity, it's not just the gender one. And with that, I'd like to pass the microphone on. So I'm not sure that we... Or I'm not really aware of really problems we are having in this way. I have been working with people which are like... Yeah, working with languages which are not written left to right and after I've got bug reports, I have fixed stuff in the KDE backends for them. So I did not really have... And then I went through that way into the Edibian community because the guy was also working there. Same as... At least in the QA channel, there were some people coming there which say, okay, we have some disabilities and something in 5.2 or something broke the accessibility framework and it's much worse than before. And they said, okay, please create bug reports and then we will have a look. So I'm not sure at which point we really actually have to do something. I mean, when somebody opens a bug report, stuff probably will get fixed. Now we can talk about priorities, but we are paid sometimes. I think most of... Probably even most of the contributors which do a lot of contributions are paid. So I'm not sure how to handle that in a more fair way or good way. But stuff happens there and it's not like they are excluded per se. At least that's my point of view which I see from the community. Okay, do we have another microphone for us? This is the mic. I think it's not a gender problem. It's a diversity problem. Tomorrow we will talk about the project that we are doing as Libertalia in Rome with the Public Institute for Deaf People. And for example, in this case, we know that there are a lot of informatic people that are really good to develop because they are deaf. So they have, we can say implement a different way to learn some different things but we had the problem to communicate with them because they, how we can say, they way of learn and understand things is a little bit different. For example, to make all the material for this project we had to need to collaborate and to work with the person who understand the disability as a diversity, as value and not as a minus we can see. And for example, maybe it's the point about what we can see is for how we can push the community to be more inclusive because I'm not a technique, okay? But I think that openness could give this opportunity and maybe could be opportunity for all of us. How do I know if I can take the point for the disability for example? Because to develop a code, I mean that maybe from a technical point of view could be the same things. You have to write a code so maybe could be the same. But it's different the way of think and the way to learn. And that is important for example, the collaboration with the schools or with the universities because we have also when we do some projects in the schools about the awareness and we can see is digital freedom so about not only the project of LibreOffice but about all the things that are included in openness. We had to know and this could be a great point to make the community more big and more inclusive with I can say other different people that is are not only, I mean it's not only for a technical point of view. It's also for the community about culture we can say, culture of openness. See this example you mentioned that there was some people coming to IRC and telling us, hey guys, your new template manager is really cool but I'm blind since birth and I can't use it because it doesn't work with the screen reader and I have absolutely no mental image. How a screen reader works and what I as a developer can do to make the project I'm developing more accessible because I don't have any disability and I'm simply not aware of the needs of those people have and it actually takes some, well I'm reluctant to say like you need to have post but the barrier like you have to actively go to the IRC and say, hey guys, your software sucks. You have to do something and this requires quite some courage and I assume like not everybody has that courage and not everybody has even the means to go to IRC channel and yell at the developers. So this is something perhaps we're doing wrong that we're like we ourselves have some privilege and like from the hate of that privilege we don't see different people with different needs. This is something we should somehow perhaps strive to improve. In my experience, we have to be very careful when we talk about making groups of people, nevermind big groups, small groups because if we focus on a group and want to attach that group we sort of push all the other groups away. What we need to do is to be open whenever somebody from a group comes to us and we have one big untapped force that we don't use at all. We have our user base. We have contact with our user base through the update pointer. We actually know where they are out there so we could instead of focusing on single groups we could send out messages to our users also all closed software do that. They make announcements every now and then which are generic. Asking for instance, do you have any problems with the software?  Would you like to help us confirming a couple of bugs? A user list, I'm talking about everybody who has installed Libra or isn't it? Just to make sure, there is a bug that has been already let's say blessed by the UX guy in the help menu. We have now new entries. One entry will lead, bring the user, the installed base to the localized forums and question and answers. Another one that will go in will be to address to get the user to the documentation page so we narrow the gap between the software and the user base. So this is on the way, okay. No questions? So I like the suggestions that were made. Yeah, I mean for example regarding using the leveraging what we have in Libra itself already. One thing that I've seen as a problem is that over time if we don't use a part of the software, if we don't test it, so say we don't have many people developing and testing on the Mac, we don't have that many people testing or at least vocally testing with screen readers. So if maybe we made more of a framework like those little signs like 10 days without a workplace accident. So if we had something like that that said how many days since we've had feedback on one of these major components such as using a screen reader with Libra Office, that might visually help us stay better on top of the topics that the community can deem what's important, maybe raise priority. But if we wanna say we wanna be accessible for people who are blind, then we could have that be one of our dashboard items. And that would be a tool to help us stay up to date, that's just a thought. If I cannot, okay, about the missing test and QA activity on screen reader and so on, we can try to involve some other contributor from other project where for example, there are support packages and so on. This can be a way to obtain a better software. Yeah, something else that's something interesting what for example Launchpad and Ubuntu is using is that users can actually actively subscribe to a bug and vote for a bug. So for obvious stuff like something really big is broken, even as a developer you can see you have to fix that quick but when you have 10,000 bucks and everything but it just says, oh, that's my lovely pretty super bug and every time we change that to okay, it's not so important we think the users come back and just upscale the bug again. So probably at that point, something is missing that you can really see what is important for the user. I'm just talking about. Some bugs laws have this feature indeed. For example, open SUSE bugzilla, you can vote for bugs. So if it's really like not so severe back but annoying one that impacts many users, they can vote and like. Okay, it's already there or? Yes, it's already there. I'm not sure if it can be somehow transplanted to our bugzilla or if it's some SUSE add-on but indeed in SUSE bugzilla you can vote for a bug and when I was a SUSE developer, one of my bugs collected record number of 52 votes. Yeah, so because normally I just, when I'm mainly working on mail merge bugs and normally this is out of everybody's normal user scope and I just think okay, probably I'll have time for that but no really a measurement. Did I misunderstand a little slight thing because now we talk about bugs, we talk about making our software better but that doesn't grow our community. I thought we wanted more people to come into our community and be active in the community also but it's also important of course. It's related because if more diverse people come to our community and actually tell us what their needs are, what issues they face, this is how we can, I mentioned that in my talk as well, this is how we can improve our software. But probably according to what Ian said, a good way to have inclusion and in particular inclusion of diversity. It's a self-powering system meaning that including trying to include diverse people may help us to improve our software for them. So it could be and to be honest, we have some and one of them is around. So and also what Emma said about the schools, probably it could be a good place to find out some kind of diversities and to try getting them inside our community from two point of views. The first is that well, there are plenty of people and you have many chances to find diversity there. And also we could try, profit also, the possibly the availability of people specialized meaning that for example in schools or in university or so on, I think much more in school than high school and lower schools than university. But anyway, sometimes they used to have teachers specialized in assistance to diversity to, so you could have two benefits from there. Meaning that you could gather people and also people able to help them and us to be collaborative and to including. So it could be a good idea to go there and also for other reasons because you know, I always believe that school, sorry, I also believe that school are the first place to think about because from there, you go to Roots anyway. So from that point on, you can open mind to young people and hopefully have them tomorrow contributing and joining the community. So. We've been kind of mulling over ideas like Robinson had a number of ideas and I really had and we'll be mentioning some things in her talk before like this outreach program. So what I was wondering, do we have examples from the past where it worked, where we were able to encourage people to join the project that would fall under this diversity label so that perhaps we could, we know what works and we could just copy that or transplant it to some other topic. Because it's kind of abstract what we're talking about now. So maybe there was something like, I don't know, you said the Turkish community with Gulcan has been, I think, from Belgrade, there was a number of GSOC students. Is there anything else that comes to mind? More questions? Just from the last tech first that was there that was in May and it was in Ankara. So I'm not sure I would go to Turkey now, but in May it was still okay. That's why, unfortunately, like none of the Turkish hackers is here. Yeah. Because of state of, I was really looking forward to. But they are okay. I talked with them in contact. I thought I would make the girls happy by showing the slides about them. They just said, okay, we're working for a university, we are not allowed to travel, but anyway. And actually that hackfest was three core developers, 15 girls and two boys. So it really, I don't think much depends on how to get people inside. I think it's okay to organize hackfests everywhere. And normally TDF is paying for core developers to go there. More, yeah, I don't know how I can encourage people to say, okay, we want to do something. Yeah, it's not really broad knowledge. That's something like that. That's it. They say, okay, we want to do a LibreOffice or a free software hackfest. And please come somebody with some knowledge come there and that's something that TDF is already doing. But I have a feeling that it's not happening enough of time and probably we need some more information spreading at that point. And it just happens for developers. I'm sure it would be great to get some other people and like really UI designers that's normally not stuff on the developers really great labs. So you have a group of, I don't know if there's something we can do at university UI design. I don't know, but if they do a hackfest and work on stuff and get some output of that would be great too. It's gonna be an event in Berlin end of October. It's called Ladies Who Foss. Focused on women. And I actually, I'm going there and I'd like to take our UX mentor Hiko with me so that he can actually show some easy hacks for people who don't code. Because I do think this is really a problem. There's a lot of mentoring, a lot of resources available for people who code. And it has something to do with what I mentioned in my talk that the coders are some kind of aristocracy in the project and everybody else. Like those contributions are sometimes like wrongly perceived as somehow less valued and much less resources and much less energy gets invested to them. Unfortunately, I have precious little ideas how to change it because I'm a bias developer. Yeah, I was thinking about how to fund all this stuff because everything is possible but who will do the work, et cetera. So should TDF hire some person who would continuously organize events at universities and schools because Open Hatch non-profit was active still a couple of years ago but unfortunately now it has somehow language but it had a very active organizer and she did dozens of events at US community colleges and it seemed pretty successful. So the attendance was great and I guess the diversity as well. So I encourage everyone to go to their website and study all their event sites and use cases and stuff they learned. So it's openhatch.org. More questions? So actually in my professional life I've been a professional PR person for 30 years in an environment where 95% of people are women and it was one of the men. And so it's always been tricky to look at and it's true, I mean, there has been a point in my life where I was adding 48 people company in Italy and it was the only men. So 47 women and one man, which is normal for PR. And so I've lived the opposite situation in trying to attract more men into PR. And I think there is probably something that we might be doing with communication because I think there is an underlying perception that some roles are for men and some roles are for women independently from the kind of the role. So I don't understand why communication is more for women and technology is more for men because I've been a man in communication and not really able to do technology a lot. It's difficult to know. I mean, the question is attracting people, you go to universities, I've done internships in university to attract men into communication.  You evaluate individuals, not genders. I don't know. In some cases and at the university, I have a degree in humanities and although the number of women in humanities is lower than the number of women in PR, it was 75%. So I did a university where 25% were men and 75% were women. And there are some long time trends. Maybe we can help with some communication. I don't know if doing focused stuff, it's helping really. I would like to help because it's, I understand your point of view, which I cannot reproduce because I'm a man and therefore it's, thanks God we are different because otherwise it's going to be boring. But can we try to do something specific? But in my opinion, without making this a kind of, I've always perceived that when you start into this kind of discussions, there is the risk that you increase the separation then reducing it. Because in some cases, the feeling that you are alone, which I've had when I was heading a 48 person company with 47 women and one man, which is funny. So the main toilet, there was never a queue, of course. And the, let's try maybe to do something with, also with media, trying to help. But I think I would like to get the help in general, not maybe not focus on LibreOffice, more in let's say women and technology, more than women and LibreOffice and a single project. Because otherwise I think that the risk is that the perception is of walled gardens outside the project. Sorry if, but I was thinking while speaking and was evident because I'm usually a faster speaker, but I really don't know how to help in an effective way without looking at a kind of separation, yes. Was I clear or not? I don't know, I mean. It's something that in a sense might embarrass me because I never judge people according to gender. Never. So I've never managed, I've managed many people and I've looked at people like individuals, so no, no. So if they were good at their job, they were good and full stop. And, but of course looking at the numbers, there's something that has to be solved. I just want to say that I agree with Italo and that that's what I wanted to point out before. While Yana was talking, meaning what I meant when she talked about special ways of communication just for women, special channels, just like many at least or whatever. Because yes, and as also Ian said, sometimes even if with the best intentions, there is a risk to create exclusion and not inclusion. And I want to say also compliments because this is the first time I hear Italo without words. It's really an event, really. It's been incredible, really incredible. Thank you. And it's really difficult, although you know that one of the, I mean the best thing of my life is my wedding, so and I've always told that and I would have liked to have my wife here and listen to what my wife was saying, but unfortunately my wife is not here. And because I think it's difficult as a man to figure out the perception that you have being in the opposite part and, but on the other hand, I think it's beautiful that we have different perception as otherwise. It would be extremely boring in general. So, but I was trying to figure out, I mean, if I were in their position, what I would do, but it's, sorry, it's 62 years that I have my man so it's difficult to think or try to think like a woman especially younger woman because my wife is younger than me but it's not that younger. So I know our 55 years old women things, not younger ones. So just some random thoughts on this whole topic. The first is, I think it's a very good idea to start thinking with contributors right away and not so much about users. For the same reason, if you look at the development channel of LibreOffice and someone comes in there and says, I wanna have this pet bug fixed, we smack him. And the reason for that is if we don't, then two days later, 200 other people will come up and we'll show up with their pet bug.  So I think we should really start looking at the contributor side because then we can grow from there to actually support the users. And so that's the first thing. Second thing is like Charleston said, I think we need to find some concrete goal and then we need to find a commitment to how to, what we wanna do to achieve that because right now we are only talking about ideas. And I can unfortunately not commit much time because I'm already drowning. So we need to find, this is why I'm hesitant to say more but I still have a third point and this is an idea where I have no time to commit to it. So sorry to do the same that we did all time here but we did some stuff with schools, for example in Gran Canaria and stuff. And yeah, it is interesting but for example in Gran Canaria it failed because even the computer science students were mostly on Python and not interested in C++. So we have a very high barrier to entry there. So if we just wanna look into diversity and not explicitly frame that in or we wanna talk to these people which is a horrible way to start it off. The Document Foundation is an NGO and there are lots of NGOs that care about groups that have special interests. So we might just look, one way to start might be to look for another NGO that cares for specific groups of the population and then just do something together with them without explicitly calling it, we are doing this for that reason, just doing an event about LibreOffice at their place and it's pretty implicit that because of the audience of this NGO we will get to the topics that these people are interested in. So maybe that is a starting point. Well, one excellent example of such an NGO is the Software Freedom Conservancy that runs Outreach Program for Women. Common misconception is this is a equivalent of Google Summer of Code for Women which is not the case. And the interns in Outreach Program for Women can work on any area, they don't have to be coders. So this would be an opportunity for Document Foundation to cooperate to somehow enter this Outreach Program and we could have, for example, documentation intern or an infrastructure intern or I don't know, user experience intern. It just costs money and it costs manpower because somebody has to take care of such an intern and somebody has to mentor her. A group of women, that are women for example because in Wikipedia there are not a lot of, women contributor and that's a problem, a problem in the aspect that Katarina explained. But I'm really agree with what you have said because we had to work together with the person who understand the different field. For example, I'm not an informatic, I'm not a technique and that's for this that in Rome we decided to make a protocol with the public institute for DEF because we have to implement with them their needs and what we can do to make them more closest to LibreOffice. So that could be an idea for a practical, something that we can do in practice, so. So I think I mentioned before that Wikipedia actually started the project that you mentioned because they found out that there are few articles about notable girls and women and if you think that Wikipedia is one of the top five or 10 websites it influences a lot of people with information which also makes the issue that we are talking about now even worse if you think about it. So one thing is the information and the intimidation we get and the other one is that they don't have many contributions. Also Wikipedia had last year, the last two years had many, many issues with let's say bullying cases against some contributors and they're trying to fix this and this should be a case and a lesson for other communities in order to avoid these kind of situations before it becomes a major issue inside and within the community. Also there is one of the things they do and this is what is good with the free software communities you can also take good things from one community and bring them to the others. So what they always insist on having a cut of conduct many years before so that even at meetups and conferences the let's say gender issue is not an issue at all. So they're trying to somehow fix this for the last years. I don't think it has been very effective and yet and I think that the steps need to be faster. It's like we had, I learned that there is a parliament in a country that said we will have by law 33% of women to be in the parliament which is even worse if you think of imposing that that's a big debate but I think that why 33 and not like the same percentage with the population, right? Yeah, but what I'm trying to say is that I think this needs to go faster. It's worldwide, yeah. We are not talking about reserved seats, absolutely not. No, we want to be more inclusive. We won't ever, no, okay. It's what I told when Robinsson asked his question at the end of my talk. This is not about pulling people in and forcing them to do something they don't want to do and they're not interested in. This should all be about somehow pulling the people in who are staying out for no good reason. Yeah, but my question would be how can you make the whole process faster? Do you think it's getting fast enough like the inclusion in Floss communities? Personally, I don't think so. I don't know what's the solution but it seems that there is a long work like work to be done in many areas. There's a couple of solutions and I outlined some of them in my talk. For example, providing some role models for the minorities, a good mentoring program, family-friendly events, some kind of, I know people see red when I say positive discrimination but it's really like some improved hiring practices simply like with the internships, with the jobs, with the mentees, I don't know, Google Summer of Code students just be aware of those issues the minorities might have and actively reach out to them because they wouldn't come by themselves so actively seek out those people and encourage them to contribute.


It's excused Berg Boney Doyle Graf excuse will be tardy Manny Montemay or moody Perez Rainflesh Stefan is excused Ben Akron Vander wheelie is excused Wongaman Warner is here Wenninger We have a quorum On that I will ask for approval of the minutes of our September 15, 2003 meeting I have a motion and a second for approval of the minutes from our previous meeting. Is there any discussion? Hearing none all those in favor signify by saying aye Aye Chair votes aye Motion passes Minutes stand approved This evening I'd like to thank everyone for their attendance Addressing the committee of the whole tonight is Leah Merriman Leah is the Green Bay area contact person And member of Save American Manufacturing She is also a board member of United We Stand America Wisconsin Incorporated Attending with Leah this evening is the president of Save American Manufacturing Kathy Schult As well as the president of United We Stand America Wisconsin Incorporated Gerald Miller Mr. Miller was instrumental in bringing this issue to the city council And has been the main contact in getting this set up And I thank you for that Gerald Ms. Merriman if you would step up to the microphone please I can help all of you more fully understand how important this issue is to so many people in the Sheboygan area I'm here tonight to talk to you about the Save American Manufacturing resolution Well I hope all of you got a chance to read it Well it's another day Another $1.4 billion in the hole Today we imported $1.4 billion more than we shipped out In the last couple of years there's been a recession Many people believe that this was due to the terrorist attacks or the war in Iraq or the corporate scandals I'm here tonight to tell you that these are not the problem The Constitution in the United States gave Congress the power to regulate commerce with foreign nations In 1994 we entered an organization called the World Trade Organization Which handed a lot of power that Congress had to regulate commerce to a body of unelected officials Meeting behind closed doors A few years later China received most favored nation trade status with the United States And made them eligible to enter the WTO With these two steps by Congress have put our economy into a recession that we will not soon meaning fully recover from Here's the fact that you may find compelling but not surprising if you shop at Walmart Last year our trade deficit totaled $103 billion with China The widest gap between any two nations in history This year we are on pace to hit $130 billion trade deficit What does this translate into? Well you're all in the city council and are having a hard time figuring out where you're going to come up with the money to the cuts to shared revenue Just think for a minute In the last couple of years we have lost 80,000 manufacturing jobs Envision for a moment Lambo Field Now envision it empty This is how many jobs in most of them very fair paying jobs we've lost in the last two and a half years Think back to your budget and then think about the plant closings And think about how many taxes these factories were paying Think about the wages that the people that were paying income taxes were earning And then see what kind of deficit we have as a state right now This is why we have a state budget crunch at present Why are utilities going up? Factories moved away and the burden is redistributed on the rest of us In our state one in five people that are working are employed in manufacturing That figure not only includes the people in hard hats that have the company logo It counts for the electricians, engineers and maintenance people that are working to keep the factory in shape Now there are people that argue that free trade brings down prices and improves standards of living in other countries Next time you go to discount shopping look at the label of the product that you want If it's made in China you can bet that the people that made whatever you're looking at are going to receive 10 cents an hour for the rest of their lives I know a manufacturer that went over to China to see what it would cost to open up manufacturing operations there One of the questions that he posed was on labor rates The Chinese man told him that he could guarantee in the contract that the labor rate would remain the same for 15 years The Chinese not to mention other lower cost countries can manufacture a finished product for less than we can buy our raw materials for This is not fair trade and the multi-national corporations know this If they weren't going to pull in massive profits from a move halfway across the map why would they take such a risk? Henry Ford back in the 20s raised his rages to the workers saying that he wanted them to be able to afford to buy the stuff they were making Cars Well because we want to save people money when they go to the store we have replaced the jobs at Ford with Walmart jobs Maybe just me but I don't recall the moment when the American people proclaimed their preference for an economy driven by Walmart to one driven by Ford Now Ford is even stating that their goal is to outsource 10 billion dollars a year overseas There are only a few things in this economy that create wealth They are mining agriculture and manufacturing and all other jobs redistribute and consume wealth I could list many companies just in Sheboygan that have laid people off for a planning to this year There's Richardson brothers furniture you got Volwoth, Kohler, Cargo malt, Optenburg ironworks and list goes on throughout your area What jobs are we replacing these with? We are replacing them with low paying service jobs My husband works pizza delivery right now in Green Bay and he's an electrician because he can't find a job in his field He was offered an electrical job just a few months ago but he would have had to take a six dollar an hour pay cut And insurance would have accounted for entire weeks paycheck I want to talk about national security and manufacturing As of now we have two semiconductor manufacturers left in this country Let's say we get into another conflict where we need bonds But these semiconductors were to leave to Asia and they didn't agree with the conflict we were in Would we expect them to make our bomb equipment? How shall we defend ourselves? Will we be buying our guns from China? Should we be attacked? Many people are blaming China for the problems we are currently facing They are citing their currency devaluation which makes their goods here look 40% less expensive And their non-existent regulations and their labor rate and the cheapness of their raw materials We must not lose sight of where the blame belongs here folks The blame must go on our legislators that voted yes on these agreements China is looking for how to destroy us and they are also looking at how they are going to accomplish their recovery after many years of recession How are they doing this? With the power that our legislators abuse they have put big American corporations first instead of Americans first I want to talk about the resolution now We want these resolutions passed statewide to help the congressmen and senators that make these decisions Know where we stand as a community on this issue I've spoken with Tom Petri along with the other SAM members on this issue and his sentiments do not echo ours You have a copy of his letter that he sent to one of the constituents in Sheboygan about this And it doesn't resemble in any way what Feingold wrote back to us The handout that I gave you was a letter to Jerry Miller over here This Sheboygan resident so you know you're getting the right story here If you read it Mr. Petri takes no responsibility for the problems we're facing Also that other article that I handed you says he blames China for the problem But really it's our trade policy that's the problem not China China is looking out for their best interest and what's going to help their economy recover They don't care about us Our legislators have to start caring about us as a community Okay, if you read it Mr. Petri doesn't remember He talks about the Singapore Free Trade Agreement and how he voted for it But there were 200 high-tech components that were listed in the Singapore agreement That as long as the items were shipped through the Singapore port They would have no tax or duty applied no matter what country they were shipped from They could have come from China or Malaysia And if we had tariffs imposed on those items They wouldn't have had anything imposed on them as long as they went through Singapore Also there have been factories that have closed their doors in the United States that have moved to Chile Because of the Chile Free Trade Agreement that he defends voting yes on You received a handout of Mr. Petri's voting record if you look at it You'll see that he voted yes on seven agreements that Sam is linking to job losses in this country Senator Feingold has been an opponent of free trade agreements as long as he has represented Wisconsin as a senator We're making a difference though Mr. Cole has supported most favored nations as with China and other agreements that have put us in this situation Mr. Cole has been made aware by Sam that these agreements have put us where we are And on the latest two agreements that are on your handout Singapore and Chile he voted no We are re-educating our legislators on this economy one by one Our goal is to get these resolutions passed all over Wisconsin and let them know That we want our jobs to remain in the United States, Wisconsin and Sheboygan We citizens do not regulate foreign commerce as I mentioned earlier Congress does We need to let them know what is happening and that we're paying attention Next election we need to remind them that our job may that their job may be next If they do not protect and defend our interests here at home And it's in everyone's best interest to have a decent paying job You want to say something? No, okay Well, anybody have any questions? Thank you, Leah We'll open the floor to questions from the council Alderman Montemar Thank you Thank you for talking with us I understand a lot more now than I did ten minutes ago Thank you very much Thank you Oh, yeah, I did have one question You mentioned 80,000 jobs over five years in manufacturing No, two and a half Two and a half years 80,000 jobs Just in Wisconsin? Yes Okay Clarifies that Council, any further questions? Alderman Doyle Thank you, Your Honor I found that interesting But the point is I don't think that we want to be used by every special interest Group Clearly our job is to govern Sheboygan and not free trade And other issues like that And I don't want Sheboygan's Common Council to become like Madison's Where we have a pronouncement on every issue So while I thank her for the presentation I don't think that we should be dealing with these kind of things I do want to mention that Sam is a grassroots organization We are not lobbyists We're just people that want people to realize what's happening here So that they take that into consideration And it is affecting your local economies all over the place I mean, every time you lose a job I mean, what's happening is like in Green Bay We just lost 215 jobs at paper converting up there Our housing market is going to go down I talked to a builder today She said that they're not getting orders The subcontractors from other companies are calling her Wondering if they have any work This is affecting every fiber of our economy right now Because as people lose their decent paying jobs We're losing tax revenue We're losing spending power And you guys are having to crunch your budgets So this is an issue that I think is very important to localities All right You want to say something? Thank you, Leah If you could hold one moment Alderman Montemarie Thank you again And I sort of agree with Alderman Doyle That perhaps as a common counsel for the city Perhaps we do or do not want to get involved However, I'll bet you have information for us As individual citizens to do things And perhaps now or later or sometime You can get that to all of us Thank you Thank you, Alderman Montemarie I just want to say that SAM is a grassroots organization It was started by small and medium-sized manufacturers I am also president of my own corporation in Menominee Falls I own a wire manufacturing company I'm well aware of the competing problems That I've been having with China And I know where my business is going Our group is just ordinary citizens The ones that you represent every day in Sheboygan We own small, medium-sized businesses And we are employees So this is a community problem Thank you Just for clarification, that was Kathy Schult Is there anything else? Okay, thank you Also, I want to remind you that we have a website That people can visit And it's www.samnow.org We have lots of articles on there As backup to what we're saying here We have updates on what we're doing as an organization And when we talk to your legislators And really, we want to make sure that you guys That your representatives know how you feel about this And especially as a community If every individual community speaks up about this They're going to hear it There was an article in the journal Sentinel A couple of weeks ago that all these representatives And senators heard when they got on recess Was we're in trouble Our jobs are leaving What are we going to do? That's all they heard when they came back from break So we are making a difference And we just got to keep doing this all over So that our state becomes That our representatives become pro-manufacturing For all of us Thank you Thank you, Lee I'd like to make a... Okay, Gerald, briefly Okay, thank you, Alderman Warner For allowing us to be here, Mayor I retired three years ago From a local plastic company after 36 years When I started there in 1964 We had 33 people on my shift And two other shifts We worked 24 hours a day Right now today in that same department They have two people on the night shifts And three on the day shift The jobs went down to Mexico And this is our manufacturing base From Sheboygan here I mean, some of you people, I understand Work in manufacturing Think about it, if this was your job What are you gonna do? You'd be devastated Just like the people at Tecumseh 173 people at Kohler 300 people now at Tecumseh and New Holstein Some of those people transferred From Sheboygan Falls up there Now they're without a job too You just have to stop and think If this resolution doesn't... You don't agree with this resolution Well, that's up to you But we are fighting for American jobs And if you don't help us Well, when your job goes I'll just say, well, sorry about that You didn't help us, why should we help you now? Thank you very much for your time Thank you, Gerald On that note, being there No further questions, I guess First I would like to thank Leah for her presentation To the committee And also, Kathy for being here And for her presentation as well as Gerald I think it is An item like this is something that fits well With the committee of the whole To get it out to the community And to all the persons I think it's a worthwhile thing for discussion Of course, without Gerald, this issue Never would have come before us And as many of us are aware When the playing field is level Americans are always among the top performers And when the scales are tipped in favor of others Americans rise to the top They face the challenge And they often prevail Yet with each passing year of unfair And unbalanced trade practices The playing field is getting harder And harder to compete in It's my hope that we will continue To address the imbalance And that our companies and people Will be allowed to compete fairly And that's my thoughts on this I think that having a discussion like this In this committee reinforces Sheboygan's manufacturing base And I also think that it gives us something To send to our leaders at higher levels And we are to say, look, think about us At home when you make your decisions And I think it's a wise thing to do so But on that, I thank you all For being here tonight and for your presentation And we'll move on to the actual resolution And what I would ask for is a favorable Recommendation from the community of the whole To forward the resolution to our November council Our first meeting in November of the Common Council For consideration I have a motion and a second All in favor, can we do a Chair votes aye, motion passes On that You didn't ask for knees Knees One knee, sorry Jerry Ayes have it, the resolution 158.03 or four will be forwarded To our Common Council meeting in November First meeting, thank you On that, move to adjourn


Okay, okay great thank you and of course thanks for being here to listen to me rabid on about fish so today I'm going to be discussing sort of an inquiry into the mechanisms by which animals influence one another when they're in collective social groups or just groups generally and taking this from a sort of animal behaviorist and evolutionary perspective and so to begin with I'll just show you a video here this is a video that I took while snorkeling out the front of the Adriatico guest house in fact right under the sign that says you're not allowed to snorkel there which I saw coming out but it not only is a beautiful location but it also encapsulates here in this collective this group of fish one of the fundamental questions that we're all really interested in when studying collective systems which is the question of how one of the entities in this system in this group is influencing the probability of a behavioral output in any of the other entities and so a fundamental aspect of that question is is both are there universal rules by which all animals are interacting in a bang or are there deviations and differences amongst the rules that are being used by members of these groups and collectives and so that's the question that I'm going to be dealing with today asking the question if there's a behavioral output by entity a what is the effect it has on entity b and how is that effect realized and so looking at this question of therefore collective or social influence there are many ways this can be manifested on I'm going to deal with three of those today the first is that if there are different individuals within these groups or collectives they may be doing fundamentally different things the behaviors themselves are different and so their effect on a collective is therefore different alternatively different individuals may be doing the same things in the sense the kinematic signature of behavior for instance is conserved but these things have a different functional effect in the network in the group that they exist or indeed salience so there may be no observable difference in the behavioral output but the way the information is processed may be different and alternatively the different individuals are doing exactly the same things and these things have equivalent functional effects but they operate on different spatial scales and so therefore may manifest in different emergent or collective outcomes I'm going to look at that in three different contexts the first is what I will call a derived context which is an experimental lab based context in which we know very much about what we're putting into the system what we're trying to measure coming out of the system the second is a natural context in what in the wild in my case in Lake Tanganyika in Africa where we are not modifying the system very much but we're observing how the system responds to its its natural contexts and finally an evolutionary context which is a comparison across species when maybe the rules by which they have interact or by which they interact have evolved and changed over evolutionary time so that we can then interpret or interrogate these different modes of interaction so we'll start with these derived contexts and so this set of experiments I'm just making sure you can see you can focuses around this group of sick lids called a Stato tilapia Bertoni an emerging model in in social neuroscience a very useful system because it has a very strong social hierarchy social hierarchy that's manifested not only in behavior but in phenotypic markers of dominance and so dominant males in these systems are brightly colored they're aggressive they hold territories and they're reproductive subordinate males are not colored so they show none of these sort of morphological markers of dominance and they're non-aggressive and they don't hold territories but importantly males switch frequently between these two states and so you have the ability to interrogate the behavior of a male both in the dominant state and in the subordinate state and if you create a social network an interaction network in this case of these systems you see that the dominant males are very central and important nodes they're highly connected nodes in these networks that's because they're attacking other males they're fighting their displaying their performing courtship to females and then you have the subordinate males out here that are peripheral nodes in these networks in some senses you may consider these unimportant nodes and so we can then ask the question if we place information or some kind of seed into one of these networks we can then ask the question is there a difference in the way this information propagates through these networks based on the the dominance position of the seed of that information and this gets us to the question of how are the the different types of males in this case the dominant and subordinate male influencing the behavior of others in their network and and altering emergent outcomes at the level of the group very similar to what we saw in Lucy Applin's talk yesterday and so the basic premise here is because you want to keep it very controlled is we don't want these animals doing a range of ecological tasks we want them to do one thing and in that case it's a simple association learning task where they learn to discriminate between a yellow and the blue lights which indicates food and so there's no initial response importantly from these animals they do have a sensory bias towards red seemingly not yellow and so they show no initial response but over time they come to learn that one of these colors is positively rewarded which is indicated by a color change here that you can't see but then we take these individuals at different social ranks so again here's the dominant and the subordinate males we also included females in this design but they turns out they have quite a strong hierarchy within the females that we cannot interrogate easily so I won't talk about too much on the female side today then we take these individuals that now know this association and we put them into a new group of naive fish and ask the question how quickly does this group of naive fish come to learn this association task given that they now have a social demonstrator of different ranks otherwise these groups are equivalent except for the social rank of the demonstrator and this was done when I was a poor postdoc before I came to the Max Planck and Ian Cousins department and so it looks a bit ghetto but you'll have to excuse me here you're seeing two lights come on and here is the informed individual so this fish knows the association and you see that the other fish are afraid of the of the condition and don't show a response the group then comes to generalize about the light meaning food but there's no consensus within the group so they don't know which color and then finally we see a very strong outcome at the level of the group where they all know this association very very well and so the basic question is how quickly do each of these groups come to this informed state where they're all moving towards the queue prior to the reward being dispensed now if we were being naive or I was to present you with a strawman argument which I never would really stand behind you might argue that information should travel along these network edges as a function of their edge weight right so the the dominant males would be the best informants because they're the best connected within their groups certainly in in the structure of this behavioral network and so we can then go and ask that question and ask how quickly that each of these groups learn and so this baseline rate is a naive group so they learn in about 20 exposures to the stimulus and what you're seeing is that there's evidence of social facilitation here so a demonstrator in the group does increase the rate at which the group learns this association interestingly though here is the dominant male the line of the groups that had a dominant male with the information and although there is a significant increase in learning the important aspect is that it's the subordinate males or the groups with subordinate male demonstrators or or at least if it's not an active demonstrator role at least with the information seated at the demonstrator that the subordinate that learned far quicker and so the question then is how could this be true when these subordinate males are so peripheral in their networks well the answer of course is probably that we've got the wrong network right we have a behavioral interaction network which is dominated by aggressive displays and aggressive interactions and it's unlikely to be the same kind of network over which information transfers effectively and so this can be relatively easily seen here so I'm not going to tell you which animal here is the dominant animal but I think it may become quite apparent quickly which animal is the one that's chasing and and holding the territory and if it's not clear it's this fish number eight and so if we just look at this video here it's quite obvious in a sense as to why this might be a very poor effect or of change at least in this association learning task in this group two things to notice of course one is that this animal is chasing all of the other fish the other is that generally speaking it seems to be further away from them and and less connected in other kinds of networks and so then we can interrogate those other kind of networks and so here is a spatial connectivity network which just describes how close these dominant individuals are to the rest of the group and what you're seeing here is the the dominant male and so it's the color of the lines indicates a further distance away but that's better represented here and so you're seeing that the average into individual distance between the dominant male and all other individuals in the group is far greater okay so although it's behaviorally better connected spatially it's very poorly connected if we then also look at a visual connectivity network how much each fish can see of each other fish we see also that the dominant male this is now a different group where the dominant is number 10 is very poorly connected as well and so not only are they further away from this individual but they're seeing it less and so there's far less opportunity for the visual information of this rapid movement towards the the stimulus to be recognized and and perhaps encoded behavioral change finally what's also important is if you look here at the response to the to the learning task you see it's characterized behaviorally by this rapid swim towards the light yeah before the food is dispensed now compare that behavior to the behavior of a dominant male sorry never work with children or animals okay we see that the dominant male is frequently performing behaviorally similar similar cues right so it's dashing around the tank all the time and so there's a potential that the signal to noise ratio is also different for dominant males and subordinate males subordinate males are never swimming around at this rapid pace and if they do it's probably a very unusual behavior for them and therefore stands out and we can look at that numerically and so here's the average speed at which they approach the light stimulus and here in red are all the times the dominant male in this group made these acceleration bursts that were faster or around as fast as those dashes towards the light cue and so you see very many instances of of this behavior and then if we compare that to a subordinate male here in blue we see only four instances of a similar behavior and also that all of those instances were coincident with being chased in fact by the dominant male they weren't spontaneous they were a response to the dominant males behavior and so here we're seeing of course that the the the the effect that these dominant males have on the behavioral change in their group members is very different to subordinate males as a function of the kinds of behaviors and the scale over which they perform these behaviors we can actually go in and validate also the salience of these cues by looking at the neural encoding of the social stimuli asking the question for instance in the in the areas of the brain that process fear in the fish in this case the basal lateral amygdala homologue we can ask is there elevated activity when they're seeing these kind of behavioral cues coming from subordinate or dominant males and the answer is we don't know but we're trying to get to that point we do have data showing that of course when they learn the cue they have lower activity in in these fear processing regions and other parts of the brain as well but it's not clear if this is a cause or an effect of this difference in learning rates okay and so then we can now move into natural contexts because of course in their in their natural environment in the in the conditions in which they've evolved fish are not learning or are not tuned to do these kind of discrimination tasks they have a very different set of rules the four F's of biology as we talk about it in undergraduate course fighting fleeing from predators feeding and reproduction and so we're going to now look at this system here which is Lake Tanganyac and cichlid called a lamprologous calypterus and a very interesting system and so this is wild footage and this fish employs a collective foraging strategy by which it overwhelms the defenses of territory holders so here you're seeing one territory holder attacking these groups as they come in but by sheer force of numbers they overwhelm that territory defense and are able to feed inside these territories yeah and so they they transition between three more or less behavioral states these are juvenile animals so they're not doing any reproduction and they're not defending territory so they're not really fighting very much so their whole mode of life at this life history stage boils down to to avoiding predators and finding food yeah and so if you watch this video you'll see these behavioral states relatively clearly here of course we're feeding and getting attacked by predators then they will enter into a movement phase which is driven by some proportion of individuals starting to to to move then again they'll enter this feeding phase which is characterized by this disordered unpolarized state where they're making small movements and then it again transitions into this this directed movement phase here where they're off now looking for something else to do and so using this system we can go in and ask and and look at the both the collective level behaviors and also the the behaviors of the individuals and ask what the link is between these these states and the transitions amongst these states as a function of what the individuals within these groups are doing also of course as a function of what's happening externally one thing I do want to point out here is that in in a movement like this if you watch this this group for about 20 or 30 minutes you're gonna get about one or two of these predator or territory holder attacks on the system every minute so it's a very high density of of of interactions and and occurrences of very interesting behavior in these natural systems now of course tracking in these natural systems is very difficult well let's just summarize what I just said which is that we have these three broad states swimming which is a very poor sort of behavioral classifier a recent paper has just shown there are with a machine learning approach 13 modes of swimming in zebrafish larvae we can also have fleeing or being attacked as I as I demonstrated in them in the video oops and then these feeding swarms now of course this is not an exhaustive list of the behaviors and that's kind of the point we want to characterize what behaviors there are and how the transitions amongst these behaviors are manifested okay but but on to tracking of course in in natural systems it can be very challenging to track these individuals but that's been that the challenge and the goal we've set ourselves and so here we have one of these groups in the wild what we do is we catch an entire group of about 200 individuals we have fixed these barcodes to them which allow us to track every single individual and also maintain their identity or at least that was the idea and then with camera arrays above them as we swim with scuba with an array of 10 or 12 go pros above them filming these very large schools of up to 200 individuals we can track everything that's happening amongst them now interestingly initially we did design this this experiment with these barcodes in mind but you know this is the middle of Africa and things go wrong and as it turns out we couldn't reliably detect these barcodes in the same way that we intended which was with some software developed by Jake Graving one of Ian Cousins PhD students so instead we trained machine learning models to recognize these tags and even to pull out the IDs from the information encoded on those tags but what we're ultimately moving towards is entirely untagged systems so here's some experiments of mine with spiders showing our ability to use these neural net approaches to detect individuals in very very complex visual scenes so this is what we're moving towards as well in the fish entirely unmanipulated approaches to tracking wild animals from these tracks within use behavioral decomposition approaches and I won't go too far into these of course because I think we're all relatively familiar with them to to create maps of the entire behavioral space of all the individuals within these groups and and of course the group state itself but just to briefly discuss that we we look at these tracks they take through the world we take points within these tracks which are parameterized in highly dimensional space depending on what kinds of behaviors were feeding into the model and also the time windows we're using to populate those and then we ask the question how similar are some areas of some points within this behavioral track to others and the idea being that you should get these clusters of different behavioral states in an unsupervised and agnostic manner now of course we also use supervised approaches for this machine learning but what I'll talk about here is unsupervised stuff and the kinds of parameters we feed in our kinematic signatures based on the motion and and well the behavioral motion of each animal and so here you're seeing quite a clear signature in the green fish here of that characteristic driving display that it did and so the point is here that we can really pull out with with some of these parameters very very powerful signatures of the kinds of behaviors that they're performing okay and so then we can feed these parameters into these models here we have five parameters average speed average positive acceleration average negative acceleration absolute turning angle and trajectory directedness just a measure of the path tortuosity and here there we're seeing how well they contribute to each one of these these classes and so here we're using dimensionality reduction with one dimensional t-sne space many of you are probably familiar with the two dimensional t-sne space this is an argument that I had nicely the other day with Gonzalo about which is the best approach here and I'm open to all of these discussions this being a very new and emerging way of understanding behavior so then we can take these these behavioral categories that the model spits out and we can map them on to the track of the entire motion of these groups as they move through the world and then start to ask are these a reasonable behavioral categories do they map to something we can observe and understand and quantify and be asked about relationships between the behaviors of one individual and the group and so as a ground truth we can identify already some quite apparent behavioral states which are easy to interpret so here we have one of these feeding swarms which is characterized again by low velocity by low degree of polarization and short stochastic sort of movements and then we have these these times when the group is attacked and so they're going from one of these relatively normal or relaxed swimming modes into an increase in acceleration and directedness as they're attacked by one of these predators or territory holders from the rear of the group so they just burst away and he's sort of what it looks like one of these attacks this is here we have you'll see bang an attack on the group and so here is another kind of behavior that also pops out which one of great interest is it can we quantify where these attacks are occurring how frequently just based on these automated approaches and for instance from where the network was attacked which node was the initial responder and how did that transfer through the rest of the group and so if we look at that well sorry no I'll go back then we can overlay these these these color encoded behavioral states on the group as it moves through the world with the goal ultimately to overlay those on on the videos and attempt to marry this sort of unsupervised approach this this statistical breakdown of behavior with behaviors that we can observe and understand and I think this is the great tension of using this kind of approach to quantify behavior because ultimately it needs a ground truth but if your intention is to remove subjectivity from your assessment of behavior it becomes sort of chicken and egg problem which way around you perform this process but going back to this this predator attack we see here quite an interesting phenomenon where there is this deviation by one individual or some subset of the group from the otherwise overriding group state and I think these are very very interesting phenomena and we have of course many many instances of these and so this for instance could be an attack on a subset of individuals maybe they entered a territory here and the territory holder attacked these individuals which had to take a deviation in the path or of course it could be the avoidance of an obstacle and this is another aspect to this whole process this is occurring in the real world where there are things there's terrain there's things to to navigate and and avoid and of course we can also quantify those things because as we move these camera arrays through the world we're getting a lot of information on the structure of the terrain just as you saw in in Ari's talk and using this approach structure through motion we can then reconstruct the entire terrain through which these animals moved and start to ask questions not only about how they're interacting with one another and how they're interacting with other hetra specific species but also how they're interacting with the world that they have to navigate and we can reconstruct the camera path sorry about the low frame rate it's the cost of rendering these things and for each one of these behavioral traces that we get they're typically about 45 minutes long we can reconstruct the entire path typically we're getting between 250 and 300 meter sort of path lengths and the really nice thing is that the the paths often overlap so that we have a sort of ground truth so that we know where we are in space the idea is to combine this with GPS markers which is not currently achievable under water so we can reconstruct entire sections of this of this terrain in which these animals are living this gives us really really nice ability to then interrogate how they're dealing with environmental obstacles so here you see a particularly tall rock and you see a decision point at the level of the group here where some of them went around this way and the rest of them went around this way and of course this is happening frequently but I'd also like to point out especially in the context of the the talk we saw on the bird flapping yesterday is here we get a similar ability to measure individual tail beats by the by the tortuosity of the path here and so you're getting evidence of how many tail beats they're doing the frequency and can compare that to the speed for instance when they're escaping a predator or making a different behavioral decision okay and so now to take it into the evolutionary context and to bring it back to this point so we may have alternative mechanisms for differences in social influence and here if we're asking questions of a system in which we know that there are differences in the mode of living we know that there are differences in the degree of sociality we know that there are differences in the collective structure of these different species we can then go in and ask the question over the time of evolution that has changed these species which one of these aspects has changed yeah so we can go in and interrogate the basic behavioral repertoire that these animals have to ask has that changed and that leads to different emergent collective outcomes again to remind you we could we could then embedded in a network to ask the question if the behaviors are the same is it that they differently transmit through the network and have a different effect on the rest of the group or is everything the same but it's just occurring at different spatial scales and so to answer this question again we look to the cichlids and this is a particularly special group of of cichlids in Lake Tanganyika the lamprologian cichlids obviously if you know anything about cichlids which you may not of course they're famous for this this explosive adaptive radiation so we have over a thousand species in the African rift lakes or from a known founder stock of of a handful of species that have since diverged into a wide variety of modes of life and so this particular group comprises about 40 species they are all very very small so very amenable to to experimentation and and field manipulation they all eat the same things the micro benthavors the same things eat them they all live in snail shells they're all about the same size they all look roughly the same but they vary dramatically in their social structure so some of them live entirely solitary except for the breeding condition and some of them live in permanent social groups with our parental care helpers at nest and all of the sort of classic hallmarks of sociality and so the way these animals interact is fundamentally different yet everything else about their ecology and life history is relatively conserved and so that we can then go in and say given that there are these differences amongst how they interact what is actually different about them and here in in in sort of distinction to the stuff I showed you earlier about only the kinematic signatures of of these swimming schools in the wild here we're very much interested in the interactions that are occurring between these animals and so here we have three traces that describe this behavioral interaction now from a traditional ethological perspective we would look at this interaction and we would characterize this as an aggressive act on the part of the green fish towards the orange fish and that might be the end of it and here we could we could quantify that here we have that if you can see it I apologize it's it's small and faint here we have the speed of the two animals so we have a rapid increase in the speed of the green animal here we have the relative orientation of the two animals so when it's zero one animal is facing the other and here we have the inter individual distance between them and so using supervised methods as I said and unsupervised methods we can break down all of these different types of behavior and ask the question are these behaviors different amongst these different species importantly here we have one of the social species and what you'll notice is of course in the in the attack this orange fish is not leaving it's staying in the territory it's performing what we probably would interpret as an affiliative display here a sort of peacekeeping display and it's allowed to stay which we very different we would hypothesize to the non-social species in which this interaction would lead with lead into this fish vacating the area entirely now leaning on the the the long history of study of this particular group of animals we have a broad range of approaches to then interrogate this this question about how the behaviors that they display have evolved we can take traditional ethogram methods where people have categorized behavior into into these categories these these distinct behavioral states which is of course potentially hazardous because this is probably much more of a continuum of states nevertheless we have a great deal of evidence for and literature supporting this kind of approach we can take this and combine it with of these some of these objective approaches like t-sneed to create behavioral categories and let the data tell the story about what kind of behavioral categories there are and and ask how they match with these kind of approaches and then if we've constructed these these maps of the behavior we can go in and ask are these behavioral maps different amongst the different species using exactly the same parameters using exactly the same thresholding and and and division amongst states we can then ask just as Gordon Berman has done with different species of Drosophila are the behavioral repertoires that these animals have different and is that's what's causing the difference in their collective function at the level of the group we can then attempt if we want to ground truth some of these behavioral maps in the very very exhaustive ethograms that are produced by many of the groups around the world and I think this really does encapsulate the the challenge to this kind of question in the modern era because here we have an ethogram from one of the groups that studies one of these species and it contains about 35 behaviors if we look at another group that studies this species they'll publish an ethogram with about 20 behaviors and then you have someone like me coming along and showing a behavioral space or a behavioral map here which has eight categories and the real challenge and the question is how do we reconcile these different approaches to asking the question how different are behaviors this becomes very very important when we're doing comparative work to ask how the behavioral interactions amongst species have evolved because if we're not dealing with the same template we have a very very difficult task in comparative work now of course how I choose to create these different categories is subject to debate and argument but at least I think in this case we're dealing with a common set of data and that other people can interrogate and interpret and re-evaluate and re-analyze versus this kind of approach where we're going under water with a clipboard and a pencil and we're putting check marks near the different behavioral categories with no way of really comparing them post-hoc ah that's what I wanted to say about that one if I'm able to oh dear sorry interestingly when we do train models in a supervised way if we train you can't see it here but this is the the aggressive chase category if we train one of these models on one of the species in the chase category and then we apply that predictor to one of the other species which is identical in size and and everything I said it fails so there's something about the kinematics it seems that means that the predictor generated in one species does not work in another species perhaps suggesting that there are fundamental differences in the kinematic structure already um or the effect that these things have amongst these different species okay um now of course one of the things you can do is create behavioral repertoires as we saw in the previous example based on the kinematics of the animals alone but these are social animals living in collectives so this doesn't really make sense uh conceptually because we're interested in the interactions and so the the subsequent step and one thing we're we're now incorporating into these analyses is to not only include individual level characteristics but also these sort of Markov chain approaches um this is a paper um by Jens Krauser who's with us here um looking at the probability of a behavioral shift and then perhaps embedding those in natural social networks to ask not just what the animal is doing but how does what the animal is doing affect what the other animals around it are doing getting to this fundamental question of these rules of interaction and these rules of influence amongst these different species okay and the final aspect that I mentioned was this sort of structural or this spatial question because of course when we're comparing these different species that live naturally at different scales and asking what's different about them it may be that the answer is already there it's simply that they live at different scales and if you forced them to live together you would see that they immediately update their behavioral rules such that they no longer show these differences in behavior because everything about them converges and so this is what we tried to ask with this experiment so we forced these different species to live in this standard sort of spatial world where all of the different shells are equally spaced and so their interaction rate and their spatial relationships are all now identical and asked do the behaviors remain different or do the behaviors converge on the same behavioral set now of course this is a lesson in the fact that your study system can be smarter than you are because instead of accepting this condition what they did was rearrange sorry about this the architecture of the tank so here we have the social species and instead of leaving the shells where they were they dug out the shell so that they fell together and then lived in these little couplets the asocial species did the opposite in which it chose one shell and then buried all of the other shells around it in the tank so no fish could come anywhere near it I think this is a really beautiful result demonstrating this relationship between the spatial structure that the animal produces and is given and the behavior that it produces and of course the fact that this is a reciprocal relationship we asked the same question in the field and so here we're mapping out the sort of interaction space amongst all these individuals by by mapping where they are in space in three-dimensional space and then characterizing their their their home ranges also looking at how they deal with individual shells and then of course how the groups and the networks that they produce are arranged in space okay so I'll finish there and take your questions thank you


Welcome back folks, Dow. Dow Industries right now at 388, the Nasdaq's up 67, S&P's are up 32. Yesterday, folks, is Wayne Vergent. Wayne is the CEO of the Tampa Bay Watch. Tampa Bay Watch is dedicated to fostering a healthy Tampa Bay watershed, which we have and which we want to get better. It's a community-driven restoration projects, education programs, outreach events, and literally right down the street for us folks, there's a new pair. And Wayne's put together a new Watch Discovery Center, right, to educate folks, right? Yeah, we opened the new Discovery Center last July as part of the new peer project. It's a combination of an aquarium and a museum. Okay. So it's something for the public to come through. We do educational programs for the kids and then we just launched this brand new ecovessel. So it's a 47-foot catamaran that takes people out. We do trolls on the bay. We do dolphin watch and dolphin identification for NOAA, a part of the scientific recording. Right. And people go out for about 75 minutes, they have a great time, and they learn a lot. That's amazing, man. And then, of course, what we have down here, folks, which is really cool too, we have dolphins, we have turtles, you know? And the turtles are beautiful, man. I mean, there's no doubt about it. Yeah. And there are a million things we can talk about. I know there is. What I'd like to just get into a bit, and because this is really important for everyone across the whole country, folks, okay, is cleaning up waterways, okay? We're talking about, in our case down here, we're talking about old crab traps, right? Yes. We're talking about plastics everywhere, right? And I know I've seen a few, like, we have your website up, and the website is tamperbaywatch.org, folks. So, you know, the volunteer aspect of cleaning the waters, it seems like it's getting a lot better. Is it, what I mean by that is more people are getting educated, more people realize that, hey, man, this is a resource that we need.  It's like, no, it's seriously, right? I mean, it like blows my mind that, you know, that yeah, that's how it might've started 30 years ago, but all you have to do is realize that if you don't have an ecosystem, you don't have anything. That's right. That's the backbone of water is life. Yes. So we all need it. We need to make sure that it's around for us and for our children. One of the things that's amazing is that people are learning to get more engaged. But as we learned down here this summer with Red Tide. Yes. You know, we... Huge problem. It is, and what happened was back in the 70s, 60 minutes to the story on Tampa Bay and it was declared a dead bay. There was no life in there back in 74. They said there's so little life there was really hardly anything left there. And so we've done some incredible turnaround in that over the last 40 years because of organizations like Tampa Bay Watch to be able to go in and do boots on the ground projects like our oyster refall projects as an example. I'll talk about that in a minute. Yes. Where we go out and actually do things that help clean the water. Right. We help improve them. Oyster refalls are something we built out there with volunteers. So it's a community-driven project. Yes. And basically we install these 200 pound oyster refalls, the concrete domes. Okay. And they populate with oysters. Everyone collects somewhere between 1,000 and 2,500 oysters on these oyster refalls. So they used to just grab onto them. Is that how it happens? The spores are in the water and they just form in there and they start to grow a shell. Yeah. And they start populating on top of each other. The significance of that is that one oyster can clean up to 50 gallons of seawater a day. That's. So when we do, we're looking at an expansion program for example. Yes. And when we take a look at that adding another 500 a year, that's over nine billion gallons of seawater that are cleaned over a year by adding 500 more of these oyster refalls. That is so cool, man. And it's all organic. It's all natural. Yes. You know, they're low maintenance. They protect the shoreline and help with erosion. I mean, it's a win-win-win. And then people have a blast of course because they're participating, but then you're educating them because then they can go back, you know, if they're a vacation down here, they see what you're doing. They can go back to, you know, their oceans somewhere, anywhere in the country or in the world in general. You know what I mean? And really get engaged. Yeah. And there's opportunities for fresh water improvements as well. If they live inland, there's things they can do because it's all tied to an aquifer or to fresh water that people are drinking so they can do something similar with plants for fresh water. Yes. That will have a similar effect to take heavy metals out of the water. And that's the idea is essentially, you know, there are ways that we can improve the quality of life and the quality of the planet that are not gonna change our lives that significantly. Just need to be smarter about it and not ignore the problems. So how did you get into this? Hey. I've been in the zoo of Cramaroll for a number of years. Yeah. I came down here and interesting enough, what I found was I have a scuba diver. Okay. And I came down here. That does it. Yeah.  Right. And I found all these places that were selling t-shirts but they never seemed to actually do anything where they go out and do the projects. Okay. And that's how I discovered Tampa Bay Watch. Right. That's what they do. They go out and put it on the ground. You know what's so cool about that folks, okay? I think all of us, I love the water too. I mean, just being around the water, right? And I don't think that anyone that likes the water, you realize that how important it is and in particular, the type of life that the water gets. You know what I mean? Like we were just up Crystal Bay and I'm watching in Kings Bay and they're doing a lot of work up there. Do you know what I mean? A lot of volunteers, you know, getting that algae off the bottom, which is a huge deal. And then once that grass comes back folks and you wouldn't believe the amount of animals that come in. And I've seen it within two years, the amount of animals, it's just amazing. You know what I mean? I'd hate to be one of those animals because they get eaten so fast.  And that's what seagrass does. It acts as a nursery for small, some of the big fish that are game fish that we go out for, right? Yes. They start out as smaller species and they're protected by being able to hide in the seagrass as well as being the food for manatees and sea turtles and other animals, which is phenomenal. But we're talking a bit about the red tide and since, you know, we'll talk about, we'll talk about urine, we'll talk about finance for a minute, right? There's also a significant economic impact to all of this. And the last time red tide came through in Pinellas County in this area, I think the estimated loss was about 130 million in tax revenue for that summer of 2018. And right now the adding tape is still running here in terms of what the impact is from red tide this year. So things like we're doing are things that are natural ways to help recover from that. People say, what can I do? Get involved in a project, help plant some of these things, be a good neighbor, clean up after yourself, don't throw plastics in the water. Those, all those things, they add up. They do. And make a big difference. They add up. And you know, I love that you brought up the idea that the economic benefits, because I remember having a guy on, I forgot who he was like 20 years ago, right? And he was explaining and what it was, I think it was like at the highs of 2000, okay? And what he was explaining is that you gotta, that he was explaining the quality of life and that you should have a number on that, okay? We have numbers on everything else. And when you're talking about what is the quality of life worth when you, me, when you're bringing the family down to the water, that's worth a fortune. And you know, this was a financial guy and was really cool, I understand that. You know what I mean? Because I really started looking and I said, well that's an equation that's very important.  Yeah, you have nothing. All these visitors this summer came down, July 4th, big weekend for the pier and that makes them, you know, coming down, people are so excited and it's loaded with dead fish. Yeah, that was heavy. And the city did a great job of staying on top of cleaning it up. You know, it took something like, I don't know what it was, 750 tons of dead fish out of the area because the red tide coming through and that tide back over to spill from Piney Point, we believe, you know, and the impact from that on adding fertilizers into the bay. Right. So how many people were impacted by that? How many people in hotels on St. Pete Beach? How many people in Pinellas County? Totally.  Just stay right here, we got a quick break, we're gonna come right back. Dowl right now, folks is up 371, Nasdaq's up 60, S&Ps are up 30. Stay right there, come back with Wayne. Sharpening your skills as an investor is like getting better at playing a musical instrument. You have to practice, sure, but you also need excellent instruction from experts. At TFNN, you'll get advice and guidance from the authority in technical market analysis and it's not just dry tedious text either. 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The investment is for four years, paying 7% per year or $7,000 per a $100,000 invested. Your investment is secured by high-value real estate in St. Petersburg, Florida. Your investment can be anywhere from $100,000 to $500,000. Do you want to make $1,000 per year on $100,000 invested or $7,000 per year on a secured Tiger First Mortgage? The Tiger First Mortgage Program may be just the program for you. The Tiger First Mortgage Program pays 7% per year, paid monthly. For more information, you can call<PHONE_NUMBER>, that's<PHONE_NUMBER>. Don't forget, you can listen to TFNN live on your mobile device 24 hours per day. Go to TFNN.com, then hit Watch Tiger TV. That's TFNN.com, then hit Watch Tiger TV. Welcome back, folks. I guess today is Dwayne Vergeant. Dwayne is the CEO of Tampa Bay Watch. Now, you can check out Tampa Bay Watch, folks, at TampaBayWatch.org. You know, let me ask you, Dwayne, plastics, okay? We know plastics are a huge deal. Talk to me about plastics in the water. So, one of the things that we've learned, science has proved, is that, you know, when we throw plastics out with our trash out, we assume a lot of things break down, but plastic's not an organic product, it's not made. And what happens is it does not dissolve, it just gets broken down into smaller and smaller pieces. So, a lot of that ends up in the food and water that's out there, and not realized because it's gotten so small. Recently, they found that people out of fish have found pieces of plastic in a fish's stomach. Now, they're finding it embedded in the flesh when they put it under a microscope. And a recent study- Because the plastic's got so small, broken up. Right, but it's still plastic. Yeah, it's still plastic. So, we're eating it. We're eating it, we're eating and drinking about a credit card-sized piece of plastic per week for every human being on the planet. That's how much is out there.  I'm gonna say that, man. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's scary. And so, whatever we throw out, whatever we discard, whatever we're not using, it doesn't go away. You know, some of it does. Some things break down naturally, but so much of it doesn't. And so, we're being conscious of that and finding better solutions that make sure that we're gonna be around, that our grandchildren are gonna be around. Totally. You know, that's it. This is survival of the race. And you know, multiple generations. It is. And I'm sure that many people are saying, man, you know, I never thought that plastic could actually get inside of us, but it's very easy. You can see it's very easy. There's no doubt. They said one of the highest concentrations is in salt.  I see that. Yeah, I can see that for sure. Folks, the website is tamperbaywatch.org. Get over there. He has a donation pot in there, too. Let's get him some bread, man. The bottom line is that this is a beautiful thing. I appreciate you being here. I appreciate all the work you're doing. And you know, love to have you back.


hey there friends thanks for checking in this is another is this pistol still relevant in this ongoing series and last week the browning high power was featured this was discontinued in 2018 this is a mark 3 well known and well regarded in the gun world for many years but it sold for over $1100 and I think shooters found other handguns that fit their needs a little more modern a lighter trigger pull higher capacity and it must not have been selling very well because they discontinued it and if it was selling they would have never done that but the reason this question was even asked is because there are copies out there that we didn't see coming in 2018 we didn't know that springfield and gear sign and fn would come out with their own versions of the high power with different names but is this pistol still relevant and most people said yes it is absolutely it is because it was browning's last design it still goes bang and even though the modern copies were upgraded features compared to this it is still very much relevant and you meaning me should not even be asking that question so that's the feedback I got from the browning high power excellent feedback by the way certainly appreciate it but this one is completely different this one is a north american arms mini revolver called the pug it's a single action five shot chambered in 22 magnum and you stick it in a holster just like this it's very lightweight deep concealment firearm it's a revolver people tend to like revolvers I get a lot of feedback people pocket carry revolvers all the time but do you pocket carry a mini revolver you can see the barrel length is about an inch very difficult to be accurate with but it is a five shot and in 22 magnum right there seems to be getting more and more popular you're seeing more firearms chamber in 22 magnum but it's not the most user friendly revolver to take out the cylinder and I'll show clear here all right head all the rounds removed you have to pull out this pin and drop the cylinder you can see it has recessed chambers right there it has a tritium front night sight a bar dot sight system and then you would have to reload and put it back in just as such it's it's an interesting design I think at one time there were so many people that were deep concealing these this is the pug there's also the 22 long rifle 22 short I don't know if they make the 22 short anymore it's even hard to find ammo for that but the 22 long rifle is even smaller than this so if you're the type that wants to throw a firearm in the pocket and say I don't even know what's there which you and I know we know it's there then is this something that is still relevant today is it something that you carry a lot of people would use this as a secondary or even a third firearm for carry it has rubber grip there but when you grip it you're basically getting a finger and a half primarily one finger and you pull the hammer back in shoot away it's not accurate this would be considered a belly gun and get off me gun if you can get to it so that's the drawback with this and then the reloads would certainly take a lot of time it's not that type of revolver though it's not the type that you want to reload now would it get the attention of an attacker absolutely the 22 is it's pretty loud it's fast moving it would get the attention if that's what you were trying to accomplish then yeah you you would achieve that with this 22 magnum pug but I don't know you know I used to be excited about it it doesn't excite me anymore I'm not sure if it's even relevant considering there are so many options out there people say this is the golden age of firearms everything's available well this has been available for years and years and years it would go between 300 350 dollars a little bit more with the Tritium night sight but it used to be something that I think a lot of people would throw in the pocket and now I'm not sure so that's why I'm asking the question is this pistol still relevant today we're talking about the North American Arms pug mini revolver chambered in 22 magnum let me know and we'll talk about it with the next is this pistol still relevant video if you like videos like this please subscribe and share I always appreciate the thumbs up button thanks for watching and you guys be safe